# Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.



## DANGER-ZONE

salam every one,

LETS HAVE A TALK ON DETAILED CAPABILITIES OF MIRAGE FIGHTER/ BOMBER.
because ROSE upgraded mirage still have to serve at least 10 more years.


*BASIC DETAILS*

*DIMENSIONS*: 
Length 49.29 ft (15.03 m) 
Wingspan 26.96 ft (8.22 m) 
Height 14.75 ft (4.50 m) 
Wing Area 375 ft² (34.85 m²) 



*WEIGHTS*: 
Empty 15,540 lb (7,050 kg) 
Normal Takeoff 21,165 lb (9,600 kg) 
Max Takeoff 30,205 lb (13,700 kg) 
Fuel Capacity internal: 880 gal (3,340 L)
external: unknown 
Max Payload 

8,820 lb (4,000 kg) 


*PROPULSION*: 
Powerplant one SNECMA Atar 9C afterburning turbojet 
Thrust 13,670 lb (60.8 kN) with afterburner 


*PERFORMANCE: * 
Max Level Speed at altitude: 1,460 mph (2,350 km/h) at 39,370 ft (12,000 m), Mach 2.2
at sea level: 863 mph (1,390 km/h), Mach 1.14 
Initial Climb Rate 16,400 ft (5,000 m) / min 
Service Ceiling 55,755 ft (17,000 m) 
Range typical: 1,294 nm (2,400 km)
ferry: 2,160 nm (4,000 km) 
g-Limits unknown 


*ARMAMENT*: 
Gun two 30-mm DEFA 552A cannons (125 rds ea) 
Stations five external hardpoints 
Air-to-Air Missile AIM-9 Sidewinder, Matra R.530, Matra 550 Magic 
Air-to-Surface Missile AS.30, AS.37, Wasp 
Bomb 250/400 kg bombs 
Other rocket pods, ECM pods 





*detail of ROSE upgrades*.

*ROSE I*
New head-up display (HUD). 
New "hands on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) controls.
New multi-function displays (MFD).
New navigation systems on diaplay screen including an inertial navigation system (An Inertial Navigation System (INS) is a navigation aid that uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers) and rotation sensors (gyroscopes) to continuously calculate via dead reckoning the position, orientation, and velocity (direction and speed of movement) of a moving object without the need for external references. ) and GPS system.

New radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic counter-measures (ECM) suite and counter-measure dispensing system, dispensing decoy flares and chaff to confuse enemy missiles and radar.

FIAR Grifo M3 radar.
Beyond visual range (BVR) capability.
AIM-9L Sidewinder, AM39 (70180 kilometres) etc
Add on of In-flight refuelling probes 
RA'AD Cruise Missil.

*ROSE II*

Enhanced night-time surface strike capability.
SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system.

ROSE II fighters the capability to fly safely in the dark at very low level to avoid radar.

Few unknown enhancments.

ROSE III

New SAGEM navigation/attack avionics suite.
Mirage 5 ROSE III fighters and specialise in night-time surface strike missions.

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## DANGER-ZONE

*ARMAMENT:*
Ground attack armament consists normally of two 30 mm DEFA 552A guns in fuselage, each with 125 rounds of incendiary, high-explosive or armour-piercing ammunition, and two 454 kg (1,000 lb) bombs, or an AS 30 air-to-surface missile under the fuselage and 454 kg (1,000 lb) bombs under the wings. T*otal external load, on five hardpoints 4,000 kg (8,818 lb). Alternative underwing stores include combined tank/bomb carriers, each with 500 litres (132 US gallons; 110 Imp gallons ) of fuel and 907 kg (2,000 lb) of bombs; JL-100 pods, each with 250 litres (66 US gallons; 55 Imp gallons) of fuel and 18 rockets; jettisonable underwing fuel tanks*. For interception duties, one Matra R.530 air-to-air missile can be carried under fuselage, with optional guns and two Matra Magic missiles.

*BOMB LOADING CAPABILTY:*
















*ECM pod under bally,and bombs under fuel tank.*

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## DANGER-ZONE

*MISSILES:*

this picture showing PAF mirages bomb loading capability as well as missile under bally marta-530 radar guided air-to-air missile.









*which is drawn in this painting.*





*PAKDEF.info* states that PAF also used SUPER MARTA-530f on mirage too,which is used by india on mirage-2000 as well.
its range was 25 km.





The Super 530F missile has been in service with the French Air Force since 1980, with production ending in 1985. Development of the Super 530D started in 1979 and the missile entered service in 1987. It is believed that a total of 2,370 Super 530F and Super 530D missiles has been ordered. R530 missiles were used by the Argentine Air Force in the Falklands/Malvinas conflict in 1982. Exports of the three versions have been made to several countries, including Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Columbia, Egypt, Gabon, India, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, *Pakistan*, South Africa, Switzerland, Venezuela and Zaire. 
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

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## DANGER-ZONE

ROSE upgrade mirage can also load Pakistan made RAAD and H4.
long range cruise missile and bomb.

H4





RAAD





ASM AM-39 Exocet

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## MaXimMaRz

530 D or Matra 550 ?

one is a Semi active BVR and the other is a 90 aspect IR missile 

You sure PAF has 530 D??

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## DANGER-ZONE

MaXimMaRz said:


> 530 D or Matra 550 ?
> 
> one is a Semi active BVR and the other is a 90 aspect IR missile
> 
> You sure PAF has 530 D??



not marta 530d.
PAF used M530 N 530f

read it here Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info


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## DANGER-ZONE

MaXimMaRz said:


> 530 D or Matra 550 ?
> 
> one is a Semi active BVR and the other is a 90 aspect IR missile
> 
> You sure PAF has 530 D??



not marta 530d.
PAF used M-530 & 530f

read it here Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

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## DANGER-ZONE

sir.FATMAN said once that PAF mirage ROSE posses the BVR capability and it uses RSAF R-darter copy made by pakistan.
*but where it is loaded,under wing launcher can only launch INF-RED seeking missile.*


AND 

why PAC didn't installed canard to ROSE upgrade,was that a expensive 
Upgrade.?


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## MaXimMaRz

danger-zone said:


> not marta 530d.
> PAF used M-530 & 530f
> 
> read it here Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info



And what about Matra 550 ?


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## blain2

We do not have any 530Ds. Those are in any case very limited BVR AAMs. 

ROSEII and III are the exact same thing. The only difference was that the two upgrades were done in different batches. The first batch was called ROSE II and 2nd one ROSE III.

Contrary to the first post which shows AM-39 for ROSE I aircraft, the AM-39 is only mated to Mirage Vs with Agave radar. These Mirages have not undergone the ROSE upgrade because they are specialized for maritime attack role.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Blain
sir do you know any thing with strong reference about BVR capability of mirages.
or details of griffo m3 radar.

and is this rose1's cokpit.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/attach...nics-mirage-rose-upgrade-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.jpg

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## Dazzler

Mirage also use a guided air to ground weapon by the name MUPSOW imported from South Africa and tested extensively by PAF during the 90's which is a long range surgical strike weapon. The BVR capability is very much there with appropriate options. That's all i can say

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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> Mirage also use a guided air to ground weapon by the name MUPSOW imported from South Africa and tested extensively by PAF during the 90's which is a long range surgical strike weapon. The BVR capability is very much there with appropriate options. That's all i can say



you must be talking about this one STAND OF WEAPON.

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## Storm Force

I read some where these mirages are actually SUB SONIC ie cannot acheive mach 1. 

In other words the first super sonic mirage was the F1 which flew in the 1970s 10 years after the mirage 5 

Also that even TODAY PAF deploys over 170 mirage 3/5 AS PART of its FRONTLINE FLEET.

pac HAVE DONE very well to stil keep them flying after 40 years of service

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## Dazzler

Not quite. The above one is Raptor

This is Mupsow






Description:

The Kentron MUPSOW (MUlti-Purpose, Stand-Off Weapon) is a multi-purpose, surgical-strike weapon, designed to neutralize enemy targets such as airfields, bunkers and command-and-control centres at stand-off ranges. Pinpoint accuracy is achieved by using an advanced navigation and terminal guidance technology (data link, choice of TV, IIR or MMW seekers). The airframe is made out of composites, powered by a turbojet.

The Mupsow is a South African development on which Kentron has been working under contract from the Air Force since 1991, with unpowered flight tests commencing in 1997. The MUPSOW is thought to be an extension of the H2 stand-off weapon program. It is not known if Mupsow has entered SAAF service.

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## Dazzler

Another one







A very capable weapon system indeed.

@Storm Force

Where did you bring this from??


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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> Another one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A very capable weapon system indeed.
> 
> @Storm Force
> 
> Where did you bring this from??



but what we heard here at defence.pk,it was RAAD,H2 n H4.
and some senior member and retired airforce officials confirm that H2/4 is modefied form of south african raptor1/2.thats what the artist have drawn.the artist REHAN SIRAJ is a brother of ADNAN SIRAJ who was a pilot in PAF and both r PAFs artists n both have drawn same gliding bomb in their pictures
see adnan's painting 





well a senior person can only cofirm this MOPSOW mistry.


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## Dazzler

It is there with PAF buddy, trust me


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## Dazzler

Here is a hint for all

http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/mirageupgrade.html

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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> Here is a hint for all
> 
> http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/mirageupgrade.html



wow three posts
thats too much to study!

can u point out the usefull para..past it on post


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## Dazzler

There you go from the above article.

"It is a widely circulated rumor among the PAF critics that Pakistan acquired South African MUPSOW, a multi-purpose, surgical-strike weapon, designed to neutralize enemy targets such as airfields, bunkers and command-and-control centres at standoff ranges. Pinpoint accuracy is achieved by using an advanced navigation and terminal guidance technology. It is also known that between 1996-98 Pakistan bought category A and B military hardware which includes sensitive major significant equipment, such as fighter jets and other large systems. Some sources also report that PAF was also testing South African Raptor I and II precision guided munitions which were designed based on Mirage III/Cheetah being the primary platform of launch.

Although identified as the DART pod, this appears identical to Rafael's LITENING pod. Other Mirage 5F upgrades included an integrated electronic warfare suite, on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS), and single point pressure refueling. One of the key features of the ROSE upgrade was the induction of Italian FIAR Grifo-M radar, which is a copy of US made APG-68 radar. This gave these aircraft the capability of carrying BVR missiles. At the time Pakistan was interested in South African Darter series of missiles, which later on fell through due to sanctions imposed, by South Africa when military government took over after a bloodless coup. "

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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> There you go from the above article.
> 
> "It is a widely circulated *rumor *among the PAF critics that Pakistan acquired South African MUPSOW, a multi-purpose, surgical-strike weapon, designed to neutralize enemy targets such as airfields, bunkers and command-and-control centres at standoff ranges. Pinpoint accuracy is achieved by using an advanced navigation and terminal guidance technology. It is also known that between 1996-98 Pakistan bought category A and B military hardware which includes sensitive major significant equipment, such as fighter jets and other large systems. *Some sources also report that PAF was also testing South African Raptor I and II precision guided munitions which were designed based on Mirage III/Cheetah being the primary platform of launch.*
> Although identified as the DART pod, this appears identical to Rafael's LITENING pod. Other Mirage 5F upgrades included an integrated electronic warfare suite, on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS), and single point pressure refueling. One of the key features of the ROSE upgrade was the induction of Italian FIAR Grifo-M radar, which is a copy of US made APG-68 radar. This gave these aircraft the capability of carrying BVR missiles. At the time Pakistan was interested in South African Darter series of missiles, which later on fell through due to sanctions imposed, by South Africa when military government took over after a bloodless coup. "



it says rumor for mpsow while for raptor 1/2,its another confirming clue


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## Dazzler

Sorry to MODS, as i am struggling with my net connection that is why three posts occurred !!


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## Dazzler

Another hint for folks is the similarity between MUPSOW and RAAD. Just look closely and you will understand why RAAD looks similar!

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## Dazzler

This is true. Raad has a South African connection as both MUPSOW and RAAD have similar characteristics. The latter being an advanced and more improved missile with significant indigenous input made it into a sophisticated ALCM leaving even the South Africans stunned !!


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## MaXimMaRz

Is this thread for the weaponry of Mir or Mir itself ?


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## DANGER-ZONE

MaXimMaRz said:


> Is this thread for the weaponry of Mir or Mir itself ?



every thing related to mirage either weapon or mir itself


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## blain2

nabil_05 said:


> Not quite. The above one is Raptor
> 
> This is Mupsow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Description:
> 
> The Kentron MUPSOW (MUlti-Purpose, Stand-Off Weapon) is a multi-purpose, surgical-strike weapon, designed to neutralize enemy targets such as airfields, bunkers and command-and-control centres at stand-off ranges. Pinpoint accuracy is achieved by using an advanced navigation and terminal guidance technology (data link, choice of TV, IIR or MMW seekers). The airframe is made out of composites, powered by a turbojet.
> 
> The Mupsow is a South African development on which Kentron has been working under contract from the Air Force since 1991, with unpowered flight tests commencing in 1997. The MUPSOW is thought to be an extension of the H2 stand-off weapon program. It is not known if Mupsow has entered SAAF service.



I am pretty sure that PAF does not employ MUPSOW, rather a Raptor derivative in two versions. One is a standoff weapon with 60KM range and another with 120km range.

Ra'ad is another development but has nothing to do with the Raptor derivatives that are in service with the PAF.

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## DANGER-ZONE

blain2 said:


> I am pretty sure that PAF does not employ MUPSOW, rather a Raptor derivative in two versions. One is a standoff weapon with 60KM range and another with 120km range.
> 
> Ra'ad is another development but has nothing to do with the Raptor derivatives that are in service with the PAF.



then 120km ranged weapon is missile or bomb?

and may be PAF had used MUPSOW tec in making RAAD.
PAF brought many technologies from SA,MUPSOW could be one of them.


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## Dazzler

Blain

I have never come here with the intention to convert any thread into an argument one. The source i gave is a reliable one. I just try to share relevant info on the topic. What i can tell you is that both systems were inducted i.e. raptor (1 and 2)and mupsow. As far as the link of mupsow and raad is concerned, there is a definite link there too. The bottomline is that Mirage is a very capable platform and PAF has done radical changes to it in every dimension.

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## Dazzler

An interesting debate on this issue took place here a few years ago. Remember that the PAF has neither accepted nor denied the induction of mupsow 

Need some specs on MUPSOW system bought from the S.Africans. - PakDef Forums


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## blain2

nabil_05 said:


> Blain
> 
> I have never come here with the intention to convert any thread into an argument one. The source i gave is a reliable one. I just try to share relevant info on the topic. What i can tell you is that both systems were inducted i.e. raptor (1 and 2)and mupsow. As far as the link of mupsow and raad is concerned, there is a definite link there too. The bottomline is that Mirage is a very capable platform and PAF has done radical changes to it in every dimension.



I did not mean to discount Muspsow's induction. However there is more documentary evidence of the Raptor in service than Mupsow. The more the merrier in all honesty. 

I agree the Mirage is a very potent surface attack platform. The ROSE upgrades have really helped.


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## fatman17

upgraded mirages are

1 sqdn-maritime strike as mentioned by blain2.
2 sqdns-nite-strike capable rose mirages.

these nearly 60 a/c are quite potent.

more details to come.....

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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> upgraded mirages are
> 
> 1 sqdn-maritime strike as mentioned by blain2.
> 2 sqdns-nite-strike capable rose mirages.
> 
> these nearly 60 a/c are quite potent.
> 
> more details to come.....



sir is our mirages capable of loading LGBs and Targeting pods under belly .in such a way that 2 LGB(250kg)bombs on both tanks and a POD under fuselage. ?

and plz also describe about launching a R-darter from mirage.


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## blain2

fatman17 said:


> upgraded mirages are
> 
> 1 sqdn-maritime strike as mentioned by blain2.
> 2 sqdns-nite-strike capable rose mirages.
> 
> these nearly 60 a/c are quite potent.
> 
> more details to come.....



FM Sahib,

You missed out two sqns of ROSE I equipped Mirage IIIs which are optimized for interception.

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## blain2

danger-zone said:


> sir is our mirages capable of loading LGBs and Targeting pods under belly .in such a way that 2 LGB(250kg)bombs on both tanks and a POD under fuselage. ?
> 
> and plz also describe about launching a R-darter from mirage.



DZ,

The LGBs that are typically loaded on the Mirages may be GBU-12/10/16s (2000, 500 and 1000lbs). A typical load-out would be a single LGB on the underbelly station. 

There is no targeting pod needed on the Mirage V ROSEII/III aircraft at least because it has an integrated FLIR unit under canopy which is used to designate the targets and home the LGBs.

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## DANGER-ZONE

blain2 said:


> DZ,
> 
> The LGBs that are typically loaded on the Mirages may be GBU-12/10/16s (2000, 500 and 1000lbs). A typical load-out would be a single LGB on the underbelly station.
> 
> There is no targeting pod needed on the Mirage V ROSEII/III aircraft at least because it has an integrated FLIR unit under canopy which is used to designate the targets and home the LGBs.



thanx alot sir,but Mirage FLIR is fixed while the head of Targeting pod moves to drop beam on target.
how could mirage guide a bomb after dropping it,with fixed head FLIR while cursing speed is much faster then the bomb.

i desperately need information cuz i have to draw a sketch of 5 mirages loaded with different weapons.
regards


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## Super Falcon

amazing type of info thanx


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## pakistantiger

nice so it means 60 strike air crafts and at least 40 for interception stilll gona stay in paf till 2020


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## M.ASIF AMIN

I LOVE MIRAGE
 PAF's mirage one and only unique fighter who test many foreign & local made weapon system & equipments, our best fighter come throw mirage, PAF mirages give lot of experiance/ tactics 
Its only PAF fighter who help PN with Exocet missile
its only PAF fighter who made RECCE mission 
its only PAF fighter who kill enemies without any loss
its only PAF fighter who still longer time in service
its only PAF fighter who beat F-16A/B
its only PAF fighter who upgrade in many types
its only PAF fighter who first refueled in paf history
its only PAF fighter who particepated many international airshows like paris air show
its only PAF fighter who ideal upgrade platform like rose 3 (Marakash AF accept ROSE3 paris airshow display on its Mirage F1 with MICA, AASM Exocet, HMDS, Democles Pod + ) Libya also second customer.

ROSE IV
This phase of the program was planned to integrate the French MBDA MICA IR and MICA RF air-to-air missiles with the Grifo M3 radars fitted to Mirage III ROSE 1 fighters, but was cancelled before it commenced. At the time, the PAF did not have any advanced medium range air-to-air missiles and very few aircraft that were capable of deploying them. The project was cancelled, along with other upgrades to the Mirage series, due to a combination of high costs, ageing Mirage airframes and completion of developing a new fighter, the JF-17, which is to replace the Mirage III and Mirage 5 in PAF service 

PAF mirages also capable H-2 (R-Darter) BVR missile, and H-4(Raptor-2 )standoff weapon

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## arsalan shafique

How MAnY HARd pINTs IT HAS Got???


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## Dazzler

Pakistan also developed and tested an indigenous IRST sensor on Mirage 3 fighter. I had a picture of it but lost it some how. Here is a proof of its existence. Although the project was later canceled but it shows that we can integrate one on Thunders without any foreign help. One drawback was that it was a POD mounted sensor and not the internally carried one. 

Kamra - Pakistan Special Weapons Facilities


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## blain2

danger-zone said:


> thanx alot sir,but Mirage FLIR is fixed while the head of Targeting pod moves to drop beam on target.
> how could mirage guide a bomb after dropping it,with fixed head FLIR while cursing speed is much faster then the bomb.
> 
> i desperately need information cuz i have to draw a sketch of 5 mirages loaded with different weapons.
> regards


Because the guidance of munitions is the function of the DART and not the FLIR itself. When I say the FLIR above, it is the entire system on the ROSEII/III Mirages known as DART FLIR. DART is responsible for precision acquisition and pointing/designation. Its a gimbal based system inside the FLIR housing which negates the need for a rotating pod.

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## Dazzler

DART targeting system is very similar in functionality to Rafael's Litening targeting pod. Both are comparable in many parameters.

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## BelligerentPacifist

Thanks everybody, esp. nabil_05 and blain2 for the informative and clean thread.

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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> Pakistan also developed and tested an indigenous IRST sensor on Mirage 3 fighter. I had a picture of it but lost it some how. Here is a proof of its existence. Although the project was later canceled but it shows that we can integrate one on Thunders without any foreign help. One drawback was that it was a POD mounted sensor and not the internally carried one.
> 
> Kamra - Pakistan Special Weapons Facilities



DAMN GOOD......Bro u bring authentic news from reliable sources.
im sure ur a military official.once u told us in jf17 Thunder thread that jf-17 is capable of loading sd10 on wingtip.
i researched on it n collect data/pictures and got positive result,very soon ill post it there,inshallah.
once again thumbs up bro.


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## TaimiKhan

Well it seems the Mirage III DART FLIR system would most probably look something like the one being used in the Chinese latest Q-5 attack variants which have been utilized for LGBs. 












Blain or Nabil, can some further information about the DART FLIR be given ?? Some link to read further what the system really is and how it works.

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## BelligerentPacifist

I remember reading a few years ago on pakdef that the stand-off weapon on the Mirage3 requires two aircrafts: one for illuminating the target and the other as a launch platform. This spawns a few questions:

1) Wouldn't using a dual-seat aircraft transfer the guidance task to the WO and free one aircraft for another mission? I guess we have too few 2-seat Mirage5s to implement this.

2) The above info. is confusing, since the stand-off weapon, Raptor/H-2 is TV-guided. You don't need illumination for that do you? You do need two planes or two men however?

3) Couldn't a UAV be put into the loop letting a person on the ground control the TV instead of the WO? Is it a signal range problem?

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## Wingman

Danger Zone...............................Amazing addition.........love your post....

My advice do post similar stuff for other planes as well like ThUNDERS, F16s, etc.

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## Dazzler

danger-zone said:


> DAMN GOOD......Bro u bring authentic news from reliable sources.
> im sure ur a military official.once u told us in jf17 Thunder thread that jf-17 is capable of loading sd10 on wingtip.
> i researched on it n collect data/pictures and got positive result,very soon ill post it there,inshallah.
> once again thumbs up bro.





Thanks for the appreciation brother but i am just a common man of this lovely country. I have a passion for Pak Military developments and was fortunate enough to had a few insights. But your work in another thread is really admirable !

Regards

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## DANGER-ZONE

another picture of unseen payload configuration of mirage3.
its an Australian M3 and same as PAFs Ex-Aussies.

*6 bombs on fuel tank under belly.
*Flair/chaff dispenser pods.(i guess)


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## maverick1977

This is the second time i have gone over the information posted on this topic... its way too much to handle... thanks agian guys... you guys are remarkable and spent so much time to inform people like us on this incredible platform... Thanks for sharing... 

One question does remain, if FLIR was successfully tested on Mirage platform, why wasn't it integrated on it. May be i am missing something... 

Also, do we have any pics of Matra 530 on Mirage, i have heard these rumours for more than 10 years but have yet to see a single PAF Mirage with it. Whats the accuracy of this missile, is it semi active or firenforget missile..

Thanks


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## thunder rules

i have heard that rose mirages are comparable to mirage 2000 . how true is that?? and how many rose upgraded mirage 3/5 serving paf ??


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## Imran Khan

thunder rules said:


> i have heard that rose mirages are comparable to mirage 2000 . how true is that?? and how many rose upgraded mirage 3/5 serving paf ??



i don't think so our rose are best sut not same as m-2000


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## Dazzler

In terms of avionics, radar and weapons, yes they are very much comparable to early Mirage 2000 (non 2000-5) but airframe lacks behind along with flight control and handling characteristics at low speed. Mirage 2000 was a FBW aircraft from the word go.


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## DANGER-ZONE

thunder rules said:


> i have heard that rose mirages are comparable to mirage 2000 . how true is that?? and how many rose upgraded mirage 3/5 serving paf ??





Imran Khan said:


> i don't think so our rose are best sut not same as m-2000



NOW HERE U CAN COMPARE THEIR AVIONICS AND COCKPIT.
old version of mirage 2000 in terms on cockpit and avionics,is inferior to 
PAF Mirage ROSE fleet.well said by *Nabil*

*MIRAGE 2000 old*











*PAF mirage ROSE cockpits.*

















this colorful cockpit just took my heart away


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## Dark Angel

*Mirage 2000 upgrade india*


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## Myth_buster_1

Dark Angel said:


> *Mirage 2000 upgrade india*



At the moment no IAF mirage-2000 have such glass cockpit.


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## Storm Force

Oh my god. 

Now PAF Mirage 3/5 Rose upgrade has better cockpit then a 20 year newer Generation Mirage2000. 

Thats like saying an Israeli F4 Phantom 2000 of the Israeli air force is superior to the F16 BLOCK C 

utter rubbish

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## Luftwaffe

Storm Force israel retired F-4s in 2004 6years have past already move on..upgrade your knowledge.


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## Myth_buster_1

Storm Force said:


> Oh my god.
> 
> Now PAF Mirage 3/5 Rose upgrade has better cockpit then a 20 year newer Generation Mirage2000.
> 
> Thats like saying an Israeli F4 Phantom 2000 of the Israeli air force is superior to the F16 BLOCK C
> 
> utter rubbish



OMG like whattttt???

This is New F-4 cockpit






The old Block C cockpit.






To a sane person the Isreali F-16C (not talking about F-16I) cockpit is better then new F-4 cockpit. 


The French offered PAF another Mirage upgrade package which included new radar, and the capability to fire MICA BVR missiles.


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## Luftwaffe

Growler..i believe which was turned down because of the obvious reason of the age of M-III/V

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## thunder rules

Storm Force said:


> Oh my god.
> 
> Now PAF Mirage 3/5 Rose upgrade has better cockpit then a 20 year newer Generation Mirage2000.
> 
> Thats like saying an Israeli F4 Phantom 2000 of the Israeli air force is superior to the F16 BLOCK C
> 
> utter rubbish



dont be so ignorant , i am not declaring any thing ,, butuse ur head rose mirages are far superior then other mirages


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## Storm Force

In reply to Thunder 

Rose Mirages are a 50 year old plane.Every country in the world bar Pakistan has retired their mirage 3/5. 

Reason being safety of pilots and new Mirage F1 then mirage 2000 came. 

Plz explain how a upgraded 50 year mirage 3/5 is better than a decades newer Mirage2000.


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## Myth_buster_1

Storm Force said:


> In reply to Thunder
> 
> Rose Mirages are a 50 year old plane.Every country in the world bar Pakistan has retired their mirage 3/5.
> 
> Reason being safety of pilots and new Mirage F1 then mirage 2000 came.
> 
> Plz explain how a upgraded 50 year mirage 3/5 is better than a decades newer Mirage2000.



Holy!

50 year old Mirages? You just like to create alot of noise without making any sense.
All Mirages that were obtained in late 60s and early 70s have been retired from PAF service and only 80s frames are serving with upgraded systems. 
we were merely disusing MirageIII rose upgrade cockpit and older version of Mirage-2000 cockpit.


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## nightrider_saulat

a tleast in ground attack role they can match mirage 2000


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## DANGER-ZONE

*now here it is,the complete range of mirage3/5 ROSE cockpit but its hard to point out which cockpit belongs to a particular version.*

























now one of these pictures belong to Mirage-5 Anti ship aircraft.i guess the black and white one.

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## SEAL

Mirage-3 of Polish air force.











What are these bombs LGB??
our mirages can carry this type of payload??.

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## Myth_buster_1

fox said:


> Mirage-3 of Polish air force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are these bombs LGB??
> our mirages can carry this type of payload??.



Bro this is not Mirage-III but French Rafale. But yes our Rose upgraded Mirages have the capability to utilize LGBs.


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## DANGER-ZONE

fox said:


> Mirage-3 of Polish air force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are these bombs LGB??
> our mirages can carry this type of payload??.



this is RAFALE,buddy!not mirage.but we can say it, Relative or cuzn of Mirage cuz it also took birth from mother Dassault but dont know about the father.
yup our mirage can delivers and guide LGB but only one under belly.GBU-12 or GBU-10.
well i think that four GBU-12 can be fitted with jettisonable fuel tank of mirage cuz single GBU-12 weigh around 250kg and fuel tank can carry 8 bombs weighing over 1000kg along with 2 or 4 under belly.
this is maximum loading range of Mirage3.


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## thunder rules

Storm Force said:


> In reply to Thunder
> 
> Rose Mirages are a 50 year old plane.Every country in the world bar Pakistan has retired their mirage 3/5.
> 
> Reason being safety of pilots and new Mirage F1 then mirage 2000 came.
> 
> Plz explain how a upgraded 50 year mirage 3/5 is better than a decades newer Mirage2000.



indeed by going ur logic mirage 2000 are 30 years old.. so thunder which is just 5 years old should be far far superior then mirage 2000s . first u do some research abt rose upgrades and their abilities then speak.. according to u f16 block 60 should be declare inferior to mirage 2000 because f 16's were introduces earlier then mirage.. what a joke


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## SEAL

> Bro this is not Mirage-III but French Rafale. But yes our Rose upgraded Mirages have the capability to utilize LGBs.




Nopz Its Mirage-3 of one think tank member captured these images from air show France.


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## DANGER-ZONE

*rafale*


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## Storm Force

Ok i give up the 2nd generation Mirage 3/5 is equal to if not better than Both the 3rd Generation Mirage F1 and the 4th Generation Mirage 2000 because of the rose upgrade. 

Thats some upgrade 

The french are fools surely


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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> Ok i give up the 2nd generation Mirage 3/5 is equal to if not better than Both the 3rd Generation Mirage F1 and the 4th Generation Mirage 2000 because of the rose upgrade.
> 
> Thats some upgrade
> 
> The french are fools surely



I seems you seriously don't understand what is being talked about. 

Hard to understand english ?? 


The discussion is about just the cockpit, not its performance. 

get it up there, cockpit layout is being talked about, which seems better looking when compared to earlier models of M2K, not the performance parameter of Mirage-III better then M2K. 

*Cockpit layout*

Hope this time it is cleared to you and you understand what is being talked about.

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## Dazzler

Seems like Rose 3 also got KJ-8602A RWR. Taimi Khan, this one is for you.

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## Dazzler

ROSE 2 with instruments turned on....

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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> Seems like Rose 3 also got KJ-8602A RWR. Taimi Khan, this one is for you.



ROSE 3 

i thought its rose1 cockpit of mirage 3(dark n light gray).
these cockpits are a bit confusing,can u differentiate b/w them.!
regards


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## farhan_9909

are these mirages capable of firing any BVR?


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## Dazzler

Yes they are capable of firing BVR, guided weapons. Rose 1 and 2 cockpits are similar with one CRT in middle and Integer display on the left while having the only difference of the presence of Grifo-m in rose 1 and DART FLIR instead of Grifo-m in Rose 2 and the rest of configuration is same. Rose 3 has a better glass cockpit environment having two LCDs, a small display for altimeter, navigation replacing manual artificial horizon as can be seen in the pic above.

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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> Yes they are capable of firing BVR, guided weapons. Rose 1 and 2 cockpits are similar with one CRT in middle and Integer display on the left while having the only difference of the presence of Grifo-m in rose 1 and DART FLIR instead of Grifo-m in Rose 2 and the rest of configuration is same. Rose 3 has a better glass cockpit environment having two LCDs, a small display for altimeter, navigation replacing manual artificial horizon as can be seen in the pic above.



then mirage5 are rose2 upgraded and mirage3 in black nose are rose1 and mirage3 in gray nose are rose3....am i right?


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## aliyusuf

danger-zone said:


> then mirage5 are rose2 upgraded and mirage3 in black nose are rose1 and mirage3 in gray nose are rose3....am i right?



ROSE-I --> Mirage-IIIEA known as IIIO ex-Australian around 30 in service. They have the 500 series serial numbers.

ROSE-II & III --> Mirage-VEF ex-French around 20 ROSE-II and around 14 ROSE-III in service. These have the 700 series serial numbers.

Mirage-III is distinguishable by it's stubbier nose cone 
Mirage-V has a sleek longer beak-like nose cone

Colour Schemes can change. The ROSE-I Mirage-IIIOs used to have black nose cones ... they now seem to sport the bluish gray nose cones.

Regards

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## MZUBAIR

PAF Mirage Total :-121(Mirage III) + 60(Mirage 5) = 181

Out of these 181 approxmately 67 AC's are RoSE 
Program ROSE (Retrofit Of Strike Element)

Mirage IIIO ROSE I : 33
Mirage 5F ROSE II : 20
Mirage 5F ROSE III : 14
Mirage III : 88
Mirage 5 : 26

*Note:- These numbers are till 2007, may be ROSE program installed on more AC's.
(Dont forget PAF also bought new sealed packed engines Mirage in 2005)*Source
_______________

*ROSE I Program*
New Cockpit with HUD, HOTAS, MFD , GPS System,radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic countermeasures (ECM) suite ,decoy flares and chaff to confuse enemy missiles and radar, Advance Digital avionics package
*In-flight refuelling *(Air to Air Refuling)

*Radar:-* FIAR Grifo M3 radar, Italian fire-control radar, the FIAR (now SELEX Galileo) Grifo M3, gave Mirage III ROSE I fighters the ability to fire advanced *beyond visual range (BVR) radar guided air-to-air missiles*.
The radar has over 30 different operational air-to-air/air-to-surface mission and navigation modes. 
Air to air modes include Single/Dual Target Track and Track While Scan. 
Air to surface modes include Real Beam Map, Doppler Beam Sharpening, Sea Low/High, Ground Moving Target Indicator, Ground/Sea Moving Target Track. Other optional modes include Raid Assessment, Non Cooperative Target Identification, SAR (synthetic aperture radar) and Precision Velocity Update.
Scanning coverage +/-60 degrees in both azimuth and elevation

*Avionics:-* ROSE avionics upgrade integrated by Sagem
Unknown BVR Missile (May be Copy of SouthAfrican Missile)(Long range air-to-air missile).

AIM-9L Sidewinder (short range air-to-air missile).
RAAD ALCM (Air to Surface Cruise missile)
H2 (Air to Surface Missile)

*ROSE II Program*
Including all features of ROSE I.
SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system, mounted in a pod under the nose for night and at very low level operations to avoid radar.
SAGEM Circe 2001 mission planning system.
The cockpit is made compatible with night-vision goggles 
Forward-looking infra-red (FLIR) thermal imaging sensor and laser range-finder.
An integrated electronic warfare suite.






*Rose III program*
Including ROSE I features
Including ROSE II features
Improved night-time precision strike capability to the Mirage with the addition of a new SAGEM navigation/attack avionics suite
__________________________________________________________

PAF Mirage ROSE have only the oldframes that lessened manvers capability else *technology wise its has all the things closer to 4th generation AC's*

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## Super Falcon

seems like Mirage III have left too much to offer paf it is good jet against sea and ground targets


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## Donatello

Super Falcon said:


> seems like Mirage III have left too much to offer paf it is good jet against sea and ground targets



Yes sir, but the airframes are old now.

We need maritime attack JF-17s and maybe J-10s for carrying heavier anti-ship missiles.


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## fatman17

penumbra said:


> Yes sir, but the airframes are old now.
> 
> We need maritime attack JF-17s and maybe J-10s for carrying heavier anti-ship missiles.



need to wait a few years - its in the works!!!


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## muse

Any sort of details? twin engine?


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## MZUBAIR

PAF Mirages also have Matra R550 Magics and AM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles


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## MZUBAIR

muse said:


> Any sort of details? twin engine?



PAF will never go for twin engine ..its expensive and have high maintenance cost


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## muse

I suppose opposing navies will have to oblige the PAF or PN and come closer to shore then.

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## MZUBAIR

muse said:


> I suppose opposing navies will have to oblige the PAF ro PN and come closer to shore then.



They are still with PAF till 2020. Some of them will be grounded which are old enough ti fight but atleast 80 would remain till 2020.

PAF bought 500 sealed pack engines for Mirage in 2005, which increased the life time.

PN already operating 10-15 dedicated Mirage V, if needed all will be shifted to Navy...and Pakistan Naval Airforce can be established....but at the moment their is no need for it.


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## Tajdar adil

This is very good fighter aircraft but too old PAF.


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## Nishan_101

MZUBAIR said:


> They are still with PAF till 2020. Some of them will be grounded which are old enough ti fight but atleast 80 would remain till 2020.
> 
> PAF bought 500 sealed pack engines for Mirage in 2005, which increased the life time.
> 
> PN already operating 10-15 dedicated Mirage V, if needed all will be shifted to Navy...and Pakistan Naval Airforce can be established....but at the moment their is no need for it.



I really respect your words but the reality is that Upgraded Mirage - III/V Rose ones and F-7 PGs will remain in service till 2017 by that time JF-17(about 200+50 duals) and 50 J-10Bs and F-16s(45+14 MLU-3/CCIP & 18 Blk-52) will take their places in to the fleet and they will be handling the job and later the older F-16 would be replaced by Chinese J-XX. 
Inshallah


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## desiman

fatman17 said:


> need to wait a few years - its in the works!!!



ya I dont think there is any reason to replace these aircraft's right now, PAF has a great maintenance record and these aircraft have gone through significant upgrades, they are easily good enough to go through till 2016-2017. They look kinda cute too


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## MAFIAN GOD

IF THIS PLANE IS UPGRADED THEN IS IT COMPARABLE TO MIG-21 BISON?

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## Dazzler

ROSE Mirages are more capable than Bison in terms of radar, range, payload weapons, avionics, ecm etc. All of these have been discussed on previous pages.

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## fatman17

muse said:


> I suppose opposing navies will have to oblige the PAF ro PN and come closer to shore then.



a2a refuelling is now available. anyway a maritime strike config wld have the exocet under the belly, 2 gondola fuel tanks on the inside hard points under the wings and 2 a2a sidewinders on the wingtips.


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## DANGER-ZONE

i have a little confusion.

how and where mirage3 carries R-Darter BVR missile, on which station? outer missile launching rails of mirage are for IR guided Missiles. these missile don't have any data link with aircraft or with its systems through rail. While Radar Guided Missiles have a link with radar through Launching rail. even we have seen M-3ep carries semi active radar guided missile Marta 5300 under belly, which is a multiple weapon launching station and M-5 carries Exocet on same station.


ON WHICH STATION PAF'S MIRAGE CARRIES BVR MISSILE.?


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## MZUBAIR

Plz Can any one confirm my following quries...
We know PAF have following Mirage Fleet (The info is taken from Weki which is 5 years old), How many Mirgaes are ROSE we have now (in 2010)

Mirage ROSE III =33 ROSE 1 out of ~121
Mirage ROSE V = 20 Rose 2 and 14 ROSE 3 .....~26 are fitted with Cyrano IV radar for night navigation and 20 are with Agave radar for compatibility with Exocet anti-ship missile out of *Total ~60* *(Source:- Jackson World Air Power Journal Volume 16, p.111)*
________________
*Total Mirage ROSE = 67 out 0f ~181*.......(till 2005)

Weki says 87 out of ~181... (Source:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE)

Weki shows still ~100+ are standard Mirage III/V AC's

*Wts the current figure of Mirage ROSE (in 2010).....which will be surved till 2017?*


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## Luftwaffe

Nishan i would not be surprised if PAF order more than 36/50 FC-20s in 2014/2015 the number could be a big as 80 by 2018 if the economy does better by that time.


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## MZUBAIR

My question is still there

Plz Can any one confirm my following quries...
We know PAF have following Mirage Fleet (The info is taken from Weki which is 5 years old), How many Mirgaes are ROSE we have now (in 2010)

Mirage ROSE III =33 ROSE 1 out of ~121
Mirage ROSE V = 20 Rose 2 and 14 ROSE 3 .....~26 are fitted with Cyrano IV radar for night navigation and 20 are with Agave radar for compatibility with Exocet anti-ship missile out of *Total ~60* *(Source:- Jackson World Air Power Journal Volume 16, p.111)*
________________
*Total Mirage ROSE = 67 out 0f ~181*.......(till 2005)

Weki says 87 out of ~181 (2004)... (Source:- Project ROSE - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Weki shows still ~100+ are standard Mirage III/V AC's

*Wts the current figure of Mirage ROSE (in 2010).....which will be surved till 2017?*


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## Bossman

MAFIAN GOD said:


> IF THIS PLANE IS UPGRADED THEN IS IT COMPARABLE TO MIG-21 BISON?



They are better than IAF Jags and Mig 27s.


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## Super Falcon

impressive detail yes this fighter jet is good for anti ground and ship role but not sure about anti air war or dog fights it can survive


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## MenOfHonor

i think mirages are pretty quick and stealthy fighters,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Storm Force

I don,t think a Current Rose mirage can defeat a Mig21 BISON.

The bison mig21s have Kypo radar and HMS and CARRY r77 bvrS. tHEY ALSO CARRY new jammers and some say ram coating to further reduce RCS of a already small fighter.

The American pilot in THE INDO AMERICAN EXCERCISES who criticised the 
SU30MKII DID MENTION THE MIG21 sneaking up behind F15s... 

They are old frames but sneaky little buggers thanks to upgrades


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## SBD-3

Super Falcon said:


> impressive detail yes this fighter jet is good for anti ground and ship role but not sure about anti air war or dog fights it can survive



we have many other airframes for this....JFTs,F-7s and F-16s can do this job. Mirages are assigned anti ground and anti ship roles.


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> need to wait a few years - its in the works!!!



will it be FC-20s or JFTs......(I personally think PAF should buy a more specialized naval AC like JH-7A or may be stealthy JH-7B which is in development)


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## umair86

JH-7 is a very good option buy a squadron of them can carry 4 AsHM has self defensive capability and can pack alot of jamming equipment

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## SBD-3

umair86 said:


> JH-7 is a very good option buy a squadron of them can carry 4 AsHM has self defensive capability and can pack alot of jamming equipment



I agree....I mean hoestly its not necessary to develop a naval variant of JFT when there is a much more specialized platform available which is primarily meant for this job........we can buy this off the shelf as it will save a lot of development time and cost which would help PAF to divert these saved resourced to other ongoing programs....cuz I dont see a significant market for naval operations and let Chinese friends work with this chunk of bread while we concentrate on other one.

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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> I agree....I mean hoestly its not necessary to develop a naval variant of JFT when there is a much more specialized platform available which is primarily meant for this job........we can buy this off the shelf as it will save a lot of development time and cost which would help PAF to divert these saved resourced to other ongoing programs....cuz I dont see a significant market for naval operations and let Chinese friends work with this chunk of bread while we concentrate on other one.



bro, JFT is being developed to be he future of PAF. PAF wnats it to be there work horse in years to come and this give them every reason to modify it to fit in the naval role.

going for multiple platforms for different roles eg JH-7 for naval duties wont be good. this means that soon we will be looking for an air superiority fighter for air defence roles, a specialized ground attack platform for CAS and all...
this effectively kills the purpose and visioj of a Multi role fighter aircraft whic, PAF wants the JFT to be.

regards!

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## muse

> this effectively kills the purpose and vision of a Multi role fighter aircraft which PAF wants the JFT to be.




Be reasonable -- the aircraft is a light fighter - that it can perform other roles is not being challenged - it is being suggested that other aircraft offer capabilities that the JFT at present does not , namely range, payload, twin engine

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Capabilities Beyond Imagination*
With ROSE upgrades PAF Mirage are capable of Night vision, Precision Guided & Stand Off strikes and looking Beyond Visual Range. Sketch depicts a Mirage5 dropping LGB on a target while dart FLIR right under its cockpit, is responsible for guiding this bomb to the target.


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## BATMAN

muse said:


> Be reasonable -- the aircraft is a light fighter - that it can perform other roles is not being challenged - it is being suggested that other aircraft offer capabilities that the JFT at present does not , namely range, payload, twin engine



in india Pakistan's scenario 3000km is enough while a2a refueling augment it to all roles.

Again, one weapon more or less makes no difference in real war theater, what matters is precise bombing and low RCS.

JFT is a multirole and i trust with it, PAF has all the talent to improvise in required roles.

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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> bro, JFT is being developed to be he future of PAF. PAF wnats it to be there work horse in years to come and this give them every reason to modify it to fit in the naval role.
> 
> going for multiple platforms for different roles eg JH-7 for naval duties wont be good. this means that soon we will be looking for an air superiority fighter for air defence roles, a specialized ground attack platform for CAS and all...
> this effectively kills the purpose and visioj of a Multi role fighter aircraft whic, PAF wants the JFT to be.
> 
> regards!



I agree PAF sees significant potential in future with JFT, but having said that how many JFT will we produce for naval role? 100? or 200 ? i dont see a need maximum beyond a squadron or two. So why a force like PAF which already has its hands filled with work and limited budget would like to invest for development of an aircraft variant which would not be needed beyond maximum 2 squadrons. Having said this JH-7A is a medium to heavy fighter as compared to lighter JFT so can carry some munitions 8Tonns IMHO. so even a single squadron will be sufficient for maritime strike role in combination with an air superiority escort like FC-20 (eventhough JH-7A itself is a BVR capable platform)


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## Arsalan

muse said:


> Be reasonable -- the aircraft is a light fighter - that it can perform other roles is not being challenged - it is being suggested that other aircraft offer capabilities that the JFT at present does not , namely range, payload, twin engine



sir i guess i didnt explained my point!
i agree that it is a light weight fightr but also note that it is poised to be PAF main multi role work horse.
in this case PAF wont be intrestd in investing on other platforms, rather they would like to spend the amount in modificationof JFT.

i agree that there are other available platforms with abilities that JFT do not have at present but dont you think PAF is in no position to go seodning $$$ of platforms just because JFT is not at present capable enough!
i dont think so, we, with limited defence budget wont be enjoying such luxries!

regards!


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## trident2010

umair86 said:


> JH-7 is a very good option buy a squadron of them can carry 4 AsHM has self defensive capability and can pack alot of jamming equipment




*JH-7A*








Looks good !! 

However it is a twin engine craft. Do you think PAF operate twin engine craft?


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## TaimiKhan

trident2010 said:


> *JH-7A*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good !!
> 
> However it is a twin engine craft. Do you think PAF operate twin engine craft?



Pakistan, has no problems in operating limited number of twin engine aircraft, if need arises. A-5s are twin engine aircraft which it is flying but would be decommissioned as JF-17s are inducted. 

So for some limited role, PAF can operate twin engine aircraft. 

But PAF from now onwards would like to have multi-role aircraft in its inventory, that is why we are seeing multi-role aircrafts being inducted and planned to be inducted, so most probably, PAF is gonna stick with single engine aircraft, and may be in future, use the FC-20s in anti-ship role, as they may be able to carry more then one AShM.

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## muse

It's my strong impression that posters have not given enough thought to the kinds of weapons and threats that Pakistan will face from adversaries on the seas.

Generally, we can say that the IN is blue water navy and PN has trouble even being a coastal guard - but IN is not the only adversary, in the near future we may face an even more well armed adversary or a "coalition" of adversaries, ideas such as one or two squadrons or a light fighter "improvising" seem desperate and wasteful.

We might learn from the strategy employed by the Iraqi, he could not stop his adversary far from his shore and his adversary built up close to his shore - we must be able to destroy the enemy further and further away from our shores, to ensure shipping lanes transporting vital supplies are open to shipping we approve of and closed to shipping we do not approve of - It is time to begin to think in terms of the kinds of mid and long term threats we may face and capabilities we may seek to develop.

Naval Air is as relevant and potent a component as is submarine capability, particularly as developing a surface structure is both financially and technologically challenging, and the kinds of threats we may face in the mid and long term will seek to engage us at progressively longer ranges.

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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> Pakistan, has no problems in operating limited number of twin engine aircraft, if need arises. A-5s are twin engine aircraft which it is flying but would be decommissioned as JF-17s are inducted.
> 
> So for some limited role, PAF can operate twin engine aircraft.
> 
> But PAF from now onwards would like to have multi-role aircraft in its inventory, that is why we are seeing multi-role aircrafts being inducted and planned to be inducted, so most probably, PAF is gonna stick with single engine aircraft, and may be in future, use the FC-20s in anti-ship role, as they may be able to carry more then one AShM.



but taimi question remains. FC-20 will be optimized for multirole as per current J-10B (which will likely form the bases of FC-20 Upgarde) eventhough A2G is strenghtened, yet A2A improvement is the central theme of design. We can have FC-20s and JFTs defending our shore, no doubt about it but when we face a greater threat from IN in the future, we need a more potent and specialized maritime stiker. regarding arsalan's post JH-7A will be bought off the shelf, so no development costs will have to be incured and secondly it can be procured readily. However, PAF can stuff some western Avionics in it as well like F-7PG if it wants. Rather than designing and optimizing JFT for maritime role which will include development cost and time cost, why not go for an already good alternative available in the market.


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> but taimi question remains. FC-20 will be optimized for multirole as per current J-10B (which will likely form the bases of FC-20 Upgarde) eventhough A2G is strenghtened, yet A2A improvement is the central theme of design. We can have FC-20s and JFTs defending our shore, no doubt about it but when we face a greater threat from IN in the future, we need a more potent and specialized maritime stiker. regarding arsalan's post JH-7A will be bought off the shelf, so no development costs will have to be incured and secondly it can be procured readily. However, PAF can stuff some western Avionics in it as well like F-7PG if it wants. Rather than designing and optimizing JFT for maritime role which will include development cost and time cost, why not go for an already good alternative available in the market.



Sir, above the Arabian Sea, fighters will not only be doing ship hunting, rather they would be doing aerial battles too. IN is having Mig-29s for itself, can a JH-7As counter the Mig-29s ?? I doubt it. 

If we buy JH-7, it will be a burden on us, not only they will have no real A2A capability but will have to be provided escorts for protection from enemy planes, so they are gonna take more resources rather then being of any big help. 

So, then why not have a platform, which is not only a maritime strike fighter, but rather a multi-role, so that same Sqd can do air defence roles as well as maritime strike operations. 

So either FC-20s, or if possible, then J-11s, as they can truly be used as multi-role fighter and a very goo match for the adversary.

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## Arsalan

yes indeed,
if there is no way out and we have to go for a specialized marintime strike aircraft, J-11 serves better then he JH-7.
the JH-7 is no match for what threats we may face as described by Sir. Muse.

regards!

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## MZUBAIR

Storm Force said:


> I don,t think a Current Rose mirage can defeat a Mig21 BISON.
> 
> The bison mig21s have Kypo radar and HMS and CARRY r77 bvrS. tHEY ALSO CARRY new jammers and some say ram coating to further reduce RCS of a already small fighter.
> 
> The American pilot in THE INDO AMERICAN EXCERCISES who criticised the
> SU30MKII DID MENTION THE MIG21 sneaking up behind F15s...
> 
> They are old frames but sneaky little buggers thanks to upgrades



Wrong Dude.....*Mirage ROSE are much superior then Mig21 Biason*.

Radar :- This radar is the Italian copy of APG-68 and has full look down shoot down capability.
*Source*

Other features like multi-function displays *(MFD), *head-up display *(HUD), **HOTAS controls*, radar altimeter and a Sagem navigation attack system,* night-time precision strike capability* ,* in-flight refuelling probes*, *SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system*, *advanced beyond visual range (BVR) air to air missiles (Copy of Darter missiles, South Africa)*, short range missiles AIM-9L Sidewinder, *Raad Cruise missile*, *H2, H4 surface to ground mssiles*, French *Exocet Anti Ship missile*.

*Is their any thing Mig Biason have superior to PAF Mirages. *

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## softtec

MZUBAIR said:


> Wrong Dude.....*Mirage ROSE are much superior then Mig21 Biason*.
> 
> Radar :- This radar is the Italian copy of APG-68 and has full look down shoot down capability.
> *Source*
> 
> Other features like multi-function displays *(MFD), *head-up display *(HUD), **HOTAS controls*, radar altimeter and a Sagem navigation attack system,* night-time precision strike capability* ,* in-flight refuelling probes*, *SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system*, *advanced beyond visual range (BVR) air to air missiles (Copy of Darter missiles, South Africa)*, short range missiles AIM-9L Sidewinder, *Raad Cruise missile*, *H2, H4 surface to ground mssiles*, French *Exocet Anti Ship missile*.
> 
> *Is their any thing Mig Biason have superior to PAF Mirages. *



I have heard that Mirage rose upgrade good on A to G operations and Mig21 Bison is a good as interceptor. If takes mig21Bison to red flag than u can think how confident they r.Forget about PAF mirage,the famous F16 fighters couldn't even locate it and when they see it they couldn't lock the missile..LOL..And F16 ur front line fighter.


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## DANGER-ZONE

MZUBAIR said:


> Wrong Dude.....*Mirage ROSE are much superior then Mig21 Biason*.
> 
> Radar :- This radar is the Italian copy of APG-68 and has full look down shoot down capability.
> *Source*
> 
> Other features like multi-function displays *(MFD), *head-up display *(HUD), **HOTAS controls*, radar altimeter and a Sagem navigation attack system,* night-time precision strike capability* ,* in-flight refuelling probes*, *SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system*, *advanced beyond visual range (BVR) air to air missiles (Copy of Darter missiles, South Africa)*, short range missiles AIM-9L Sidewinder, *Raad Cruise missile*, *H2, H4 surface to ground mssiles*, French *Exocet Anti Ship missile*.
> 
> *Is their any thing Mig Biason have superior to PAF Mirages. *



But in terms of Maneuverability and carrying BVR missile, Bison is superior because we know PAF Mirage have BVR capability but we havent seen any BVR missile with it....although we have heard about Pakistan's R-Darter copy.but for me "seeing is believing". 
While Mirage have no compression with Bison in terms of ATG roll.
Paf mirages are far more superior then Bison in ATG roll.

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## TOPGUN

softtec said:


> I have heard that Mirage rose upgrade good on A to G operations and Mig21 Bison is a good as interceptor. If takes mig21Bison to red flag than u can think how confident they r.Forget about PAF mirage,the famous F16 fighters couldn't even locate it and when they see it they couldn't lock the missile..LOL..And F16 ur front line fighter.



Please wake up to reailty pop  and now you are up lolz you are now comparing the flying coffen with the viper the dumbest thing i ever heard please go read up learn some knowledge and then come back with your response keep your silly pride to your self.


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## khurasaan1

muse said:


> Be reasonable -- the aircraft is a light fighter - that it can perform other roles is not being challenged - it is being suggested that other aircraft offer capabilities that the JFT at present does not , namely range, payload, twin engine



bro...ur objections r reasonable but still the designer of the aircraft knowz better than both of us what to do with this fighter and how to use it. Anywayz using it as multirole it is very good approach to use in maritime...I think the multirole doesnt all the times means that it will be acting 100&#37; multirole but maybe to some extent regarding its payload ability.On the other hand it is possible to utilize its systems also for 100% maritime puposes only as it has the respective supportive systems under the conditions if we dont utilize its payload for other roles. This will save extra resources to develop different platform for the naval puposes only.
I believe we should trust our technology and strive to enhance it in a more agressive way as possible; to be independant.I guess Alhamdolillah our designerz r very successful in developing such a platform to some extent. 
just my 2 cents bro...


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## khurasaan1

softtec said:


> I have heard that Mirage rose upgrade good on A to G operations and Mig21 Bison is a good as interceptor. If takes mig21Bison to red flag than u can think how confident they r.Forget about PAF mirage,the famous F16 fighters couldn't even locate it and when they see it they couldn't lock the missile..LOL..And F16 ur front line fighter.



hey i guess then India should buy all the mirage bisonz...cuz they so superior to mirages & F-16nz ...


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## Indian-Devil

MZUBAIR said:


> Other features like multi-function displays *(MFD), *head-up display *(HUD), **HOTAS controls*, radar altimeter and a Sagem navigation attack system,* night-time precision strike capability* ,* in-flight refuelling probes*, *SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system*, *advanced beyond visual range (BVR) air to air missiles (Copy of Darter missiles, South Africa)*, short range missiles AIM-9L Sidewinder, *Raad Cruise missile*, *H2, H4 surface to ground mssiles*, French *Exocet Anti Ship missile*.
> 
> *Is their any thing Mig Biason have superior to PAF Mirages. *



Will you provide the source for this claim?? Then it can be compared with other aircraft and can check if its really better.


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## TaimiKhan

*Keep the discussion to Mirages, no need to bring in some other fighter jet, as it will again change into a Vs competition thread. 

So be careful. *


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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir, above the Arabian Sea, fighters will not only be doing ship hunting, rather they would be doing aerial battles too. IN is having Mig-29s for itself, can a JH-7As counter the Mig-29s ?? I doubt it.
> 
> If we buy JH-7, it will be a burden on us, not only they will have no real A2A capability but will have to be provided escorts for protection from enemy planes, so they are gonna take more resources rather then being of any big help.
> 
> So, then why not have a platform, which is not only a maritime strike fighter, but rather a multi-role, so that same Sqd can do air defence roles as well as maritime strike operations.
> 
> So either FC-20s, or if possible, then J-11s, as they can truly be used as multi-role fighter and a very goo match for the adversary.



Agreed given that the basic configuration remains the same, Thunder will be able to carry only one (under the belly) or two Antiship missiles (HP 3,4) at max (cuz fuel tanks and A2A on the rest of the HPs) though FC-20 will be coming with more hard points yet its not clear yet that like JFT, it may possibally include a more reliable western engine. The Airforces around the world prefer twin engines due to reliablity factor. FC-20 with a Chinese or a Russian engine will be very risky at seas. So if FC-20 comes with a proven western engine, we may be comfortable in handing over this role to them otherwise go for a twin engine. regarding J-11B, I think J-15 rather than J-11B would be a better choice as it is basically ment for carrier and maritime operations. But with *9000Kg* Load capability and *4 AShm missiles* carrying capability which makes JH-7A still a potent platform comparable to any other good strike aircraft around


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## MZUBAIR

PAF Have the R-Darter (missile)

The R-Darter is a *beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile *guided by an active radar homing seeker. It was designed and manufactured by the South African firm Denel Dynamics for its Cheetah C fighter aircraft (Upgraded Dassault Mirage III )

*The deal was kept secret *coz, South African air-to-air missile program was benefited from cooperation with *Israel*. R -Darter is similar to *Python Derby*.
*R-Darter range is >60 km *

Source about R-Darter.


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## niaz

Let us face it, Mig 21's as well as Mirage 3/5's are based on 50 year old airframe design. First prototype of both aircrafts first flew in the late 50s. Both were great aircrafts of the 60s era. Aerospace technology in the airframe design, engine design and avionics has come a long way since.

No matter what improvements are made to these aircrafts, IMO neither would be able to compete against modern designs such as F-16, F-18, Mig-29, Mirage 2000, MK1 or even JF17 for that matter, in actual combat conditions. Both the IAF & PAF continue with these old machines for the want of anything better.

Therefore comparison between these two aircrafts is like saying that my jalopy is better than your jalopy.

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## DANGER-ZONE

IRST POD for Mirage 














PAF Mirage -5EF (Ex-French Airforce), I believe this is ROSE III and showed off during Paris Air Show 2005, with SAGEM avionic and weapon package.
Also notice the Targeting POD, Mirage-5f can be fitted with targeting POD as well.

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## Silk

danger-zone said:


> PAF Mirage -5EF (Ex-French Airforce), I believe this is ROSE III and showed off during Paris Air Show 2005, with SAGEM avionic and weapon package.
> Also notice the Targeting POD, Mirage-5f can be fitted with targeting POD as well.


 
I can tell you that the planes was fitted with components and weapons that were not part of the deal. It was just to display the options for other possible candidates.


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## Dazzler

Silk said:


> I can tell you that the planes was fitted with components and weapons that were not part of the deal. It was just to display the options for other possible candidates.


 
Yes all that was displayed can be integrated on any Mirage 3-5 upgraded with MAESTRO/ ROSE package otherwise they would have shown all this on a Mirage 2000.


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## Super Falcon

well time have came to hand over these birds ti navy and let them upgrade it for more advanced naval systems


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## cobra309

mirages of paf are now outdated but still have the capability to diliver heavy amount of guided and unguided munitions in indian territory with ifr aid. But they lack the capabilities of air defence. So they cant be considerd as multirole, but a best bomber of today.


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## muse

I think we are just too fixated on the idea of Multi-role --- most of us do not understand this, to my thinking, sometimes dangerous idea. Multi-role is an idea more closely related to costs than capabilites .


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## mymeaningislion

i have a question can we change intakes of mirages with DSI.......i know it is awkward but plz anyone can answer. i think it will increase stealth and performance............and very informatve tread. blessings to all.....


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## DANGER-ZONE

Why to do so man ! 
we have some how kept these old machines flying and Rose upgrade are something valuable for mirage. theres nothing more can be done with these old machines rather then replacement. 

even i asked an Mirage-5 pa3 pilot "why PAF never opted for Canard Mirage" but he didn't reply because a valuable person "Sir. Kaisar Tufail" stated "_Canards provide lift but you have to pay the penalty of drag and some weight, which a thrust-limited Mirage III/5 cannot cope with._"

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## fatman17

im sure everyone knows what ROSE stands for = RETROFIT OF STRIKE ELEMENT. this shd give a clue as to the role of the ROSE mirages (Day/night capability) - i'm sure F-16s wld fly CAP for them when they are used for strikes.

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## madooxno9

> mirages of paf are now outdated but still have the *capability to diliver heavy amount of guided and unguided munitions in indian territory* with ifr aid. But they lack the capabilities of air defence. So they cant be considerd as multirole, but a best bomber of today.



You have no idea what you are writing ......i hope you will start learning fast to catch up....


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## cobra309

most cabable sqns of paf mirages are configured for ground attack role , this bird have a power to lift suitable armt and a reasonable strike range which can be enhanced by ifr. So they can strike deep in india. But they have to be escorted by bvr equiped jf17 or the f7pg. As for as air defence is concerned they lack bvr capability for long range engagments and lack monuverability for wvr dogfight. So i think they can perform the role of grnd attack best.

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## Dazzler

cobra309 said:


> most cabable sqns of paf mirages are configured for ground attack role , this bird have a power to lift suitable armt and a reasonable strike range which can be enhanced by ifr. So they can strike deep in india. But they have to be escorted by bvr equiped jf17 or the f7pg. As for as air defence is concerned they lack bvr capability for long range engagments and lack monuverability for wvr dogfight. So i think they can perform the role of grnd attack best.




They DO have BVR capability that came with the addition of Grifo M3 radar as well as an appropriate BVR weapon.

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## DANGER-ZONE

^ ya we know that Mirage 3 are BVR capable and also P.Shamim showed the Pakistani R-Darter version long time ago. but to me seeing is believing. 
as you stated once in this thread that mirage 3 were fitted with IRST. i thought "when and how Pakistan made IRST and for mirage ?? " but recently after watching the picture of ISRT POD of mirage 3 made by Pakistan, i am totally surprised. Now i believe that BVR missile mystery of Mirrage 3 is some how true but still want to see a mirage loaded with BVR missile.


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## cobra309

mirages are not at all bvrm equiped nor paf wants to equip this one. They have stand off capability in form of h2,h4 weapons and raad cruise missiles. But all are 4 grnd attack. Bvr capability does not come by just instaling a bvr capable radar, a lot of other modification is required to make a bird bvr equiped.


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## Dazzler

cobra309 said:


> mirages are not at all bvrm equiped nor paf wants to equip this one. They have stand off capability in form of h2,h4 weapons and raad cruise missiles. But all are 4 grnd attack. Bvr capability does not come by just instaling a bvr capable radar, a lot of other modification is required to make a bird bvr equiped.


 
Do us all a favor, please read this thread from page 1 than step in with your guns. Thanks

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## DANGER-ZONE

cobra309 said:


> mirages are not at all bvrm equiped nor paf wants to equip this one. They have stand off capability in form of h2,h4 weapons and raad cruise missiles. But all are 4 grnd attack. Bvr capability does not come by just instaling a bvr capable radar, a lot of other modification is required to make a bird bvr equiped.


 
also go through a few starting pages of this thread 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/28713-h2-h4-aam-agm.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/22638-avionics-mirage-rose-upgrade.html


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## DANGER-ZONE

Strange Gray Camouflage probably the Australian paint scheme. 





*Pakistan - Air Force GAF Mirage IIIO(A) at Masroor AB Pakistan, February 6, 2001*

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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> I read some where these mirages are actually SUB SONIC ie cannot acheive mach 1.
> 
> In other words the first super sonic mirage was the F1 which flew in the 1970s 10 years after the mirage 5
> 
> Also that even TODAY PAF deploys over 170 mirage 3/5 AS PART of its FRONTLINE FLEET.
> 
> pac HAVE DONE very well to stil keep them flying after 40 years of service



mirages outmatched mig21 in the 70s..as mig21 was supersonic so dont be surprised if mirages are supersonic..after mig19 nearly every aircrft has been supersonic..

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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> In reply to Thunder
> 
> Rose Mirages are a 50 year old plane.Every country in the world bar Pakistan has retired their mirage 3/5.
> 
> Reason being safety of pilots and new Mirage F1 then mirage 2000 came.
> 
> Plz explain how a upgraded 50 year mirage 3/5 is better than a decades newer Mirage2000.


 

they are much newer and better than your mig21..

i have seen noone here saying mirage5 are better than mirage 2000

they only said that avionics on mirage5/3 are of 90s while on mirage 2000 its of 80s..
other than this FBW,engine,Handling and airframe are much better in mirage2000


and still a few countries do operate mirage5/3 like eygpt..

i think mig21 have greater issues than a mirage5/3 which outmatched mig21 in 70s conflicts


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## The Deterrent

Self delete


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## Storm Force

ZIA re your comments 

they are much newer and better than your mig21..

MIG21 bisons are BVR CAPABLE 

MIRAGES 3 /5 ARE NOT 

MIG21 bison nos 125 or 20% of IAF fleet today 

mirages 3/5 nos 175 and 45% of PAF fleet today 

india can and are rapidly replacing their mig21s FOR ITS A TALL ORDER to repace so many quickly


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## Jango

Storm Force said:


> ZIA re your comments
> 
> they are much newer and better than your mig21..
> 
> MIG21 bisons are BVR CAPABLE
> 
> MIRAGES 3 /5 ARE NOT
> 
> MIG21 bison nos 125 or 20% of IAF fleet today
> 
> mirages 3/5 nos 175 and 45% of PAF fleet today
> 
> india can and are rapidly replacing their mig21s FOR ITS A TALL ORDER to repace so many quickly



The F-7 are going to be replaced by JF-17 in large numbers, and J-10 is going to be introduced very soon. So the 45% is going to be drastically reduced. Second, the Mirage V is used Ground Attack mostly, not for interception or CAS roles, so it is not worthwhile to compare MiG-21 with Mirage. Both are different roles. Hence, the need for BVR can be questioned.


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## Storm Force

nuclear RE YOUR COMMENT 

MIRAGES are going to be ground attack. 

HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT a mirage 3/5 to last in a battle with 150 su30mki buzzing around.

the mki pesa radar will pik up that mirage from 140 km away. HE will launch one or 2 BVRs from 90 km away.

THE POOR MIRAGE PILOT radar will not pik up MKI from outside 40km 

You will be sending good pilots to their death


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## mymeaningislion

Storm Force said:


> nuclear RE YOUR COMMENT
> 
> MIRAGES are going to be ground attack.
> 
> HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT a mirage 3/5 to last in a battle with 150 su30mki buzzing around.
> 
> the mki pesa radar will pik up that mirage from 140 km away. HE will launch one or 2 BVRs from 90 km away.
> 
> THE POOR MIRAGE PILOT radar will not pik up MKI from outside 40km
> 
> You will be sending good pilots to their death



good for you dear i discussed thoroughly this issue with my father and he said it is only possible if the ground attackers are not given aerial support......... and in dense environment it is difficult to lock on to the target with so much sophisticated counter measures. so keep dreaming.......and bye the way i am unable to understand your stance...... oneday some indian say that PAF can do this and that......but on next day they refuse to own their own words......seems confused.........


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## Jango

Storm Force said:


> nuclear RE YOUR COMMENT
> 
> MIRAGES are going to be ground attack.
> 
> HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT a mirage 3/5 to last in a battle with 150 su30mki buzzing around.
> 
> the mki pesa radar will pik up that mirage from 140 km away. HE will launch one or 2 BVRs from 90 km away.
> 
> THE POOR MIRAGE PILOT radar will not pik up MKI from outside 40km
> 
> You will be sending good pilots to their death



Are you seriously imploring the idea that we will send a mirage pilot into enemy territory without CAS or some sort of support??
If so, i pity your thought. And its not like they are gonna go in Mumbai, it will be near to the border areas on your artilllery and such. The mirage does have A2A weapons though.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Storm Force said:


> nuclear RE YOUR COMMENT
> 
> MIRAGES are going to be ground attack.
> 
> HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT a mirage 3/5 to last in a battle with 150 su30mki buzzing around.
> 
> the mki pesa radar will pik up that mirage from 140 km away. HE will launch one or 2 BVRs from 90 km away.
> 
> THE POOR MIRAGE PILOT radar will not pik up MKI from outside 40km
> 
> You will be sending good pilots to their death


immature and ridicules approach............
do u think we are foul to send them without any cover. ....


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## Silk

It amazes me that people start making comment about 150 MKI using their superior radar and launch BVR from 90 km's away. These people have truly no idea what they say and their motivation is nationalism and nothing else. Let me try to explain little bits...
If you track an enemy then its radar receivers know your position... So whether you have a big radar or good passive sensors (like F22/F35 mainly operate) you do get the locations. And long range radar is nice to react. ECM or avoiding is part of the game.

You do not launch BVR from max reported range. The cone of death is not secured. The plane still can act and avoid hit. Ask any pilot the max BVR range of weapons with max 100 km range...

The RCS of your makhi is enormous. I think it is wrong comparisation to say that makhi sees Mirage first without analysing it. In fact some Mirages do not have a radar. And the ground attackers will not fly without decent CAP. And you still have things like Babur or Ra'ad. That means the Mirage will stay out of the Makhi's range.

There are many other things but I find it boring to entertain idiots.

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## F86 Saber

Just to add that some of the ROSE III Mirages are actually BVR capable with improved avionics and RADARs as reported numerous times by senior members. What they lack in RADAR range can be overcome with the use of AWACS. Having said that, Mirages will start getting phased out preety soon.


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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> nuclear RE YOUR COMMENT
> 
> MIRAGES are going to be ground attack.
> 
> HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT a mirage 3/5 to last in a battle with 150 su30mki buzzing around.
> 
> the mki pesa radar will pik up that mirage from 140 km away. HE will launch one or 2 BVRs from 90 km away.
> 
> THE POOR MIRAGE PILOT radar will not pik up MKI from outside 40km
> 
> You will be sending good pilots to their death



first PAF mirages with rose1 can find a mki at range 50-70km...(40 km is for gripo ASV not gripo M..ASV is on standard f-7p fighters, PG has Grifo M)

second BVR is effective only at 30-40 km..

(100 km is the ideal range at highest altitude..at low level or in tail chase mode its about 30 km)
third mirage will have awacs support

fourth they will use stand off weapons under sam coverage mostly..

fifth please compare upgraded with upgraded..
PAF rose are better than IAF mig21bis/bisons
PAF mirages are better than mig21 (non bisons)


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## Zabaniyah

Storm Force said:


> nuclear RE YOUR COMMENT
> 
> MIRAGES are going to be ground attack.
> 
> HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT a mirage 3/5 to last in a battle with 150 su30mki buzzing around.
> 
> the mki pesa radar will pik up that mirage from 140 km away. HE will launch one or 2 BVRs from 90 km away.
> 
> THE POOR MIRAGE PILOT radar will not pik up MKI from outside 40km
> 
> You will be sending good pilots to their death



Mirage (ROSE) is an interceptor and BVR capable. Having good aircraft is just half of the story in any air force.


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## Black Widow

ziaulislam said:


> first PAF mirages with rose1 can find a mki at range 50-70km...(40 km is for gripo ASV not gripo M..ASV is on standard f-7p fighters, PG has Grifo M)
> 
> second BVR is effective only at 30-40 km..
> 
> (100 km is the ideal range at highest altitude..at low level or in tail chase mode its about 30 km)
> third mirage will have awacs support
> 
> fourth they will use stand off weapons under sam coverage mostly..
> 
> fifth please compare upgraded with upgraded..
> PAF rose are better than IAF mig21bis/bisons
> PAF mirages are better than mig21 (non bisons)



A very balance comparison.. I don't like when ppl compare orange with mango... I agree with each word of "Zia"". 

So many time I have seen comparing Different class fighter to satisfy there ego... PAF use F16 as Air superiority fighter not Mirage, So what is the point of comparing an airsuperiority fighter (Su30) fighter to Mirage III???? 

I agree with you that PAF Mirages are better than MiG21 and comparable to Bison...

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## ziaulislam

anyway mirages are going out earlier than indian mig21s..its expected to be removed by 2014..once we get 150 jf-17 which i think we will be able to do so by end of 2014

f7PG would remain in service

mirage primary job is not to engage enemy the rose 1 were supposedly to be a stop gap in late 90s for jf-17 project..and they did very well at an incredibly low price..
concept is that surveillance and detection should be done by Awacs system(thats why Pakistan have more than india for a very small area) and job then be done by mirages once the aircraft enter the kill zone of 30-60km

mirages are only better mig21 merely due to their frame quality..otherwise they are pretty similar to indian ones

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## Storm Force

zia 

PAF has inducted 30 THUNDERS since 2009 

We are now in 2011 

YOU WILL NOT INDUCT 120 THUNDERS IN 3 YEARS. 

PAF does not have the finances nor the infrastucture to maintain so many new fighters in 3 years. 

in fact no country in the world can induct that NO OF new combat planes in 3 years BAR USA. 

infact THUNDER WAS suppose to be getting a upgrade AESA RADAR before the 2nd batch of 50 was ordered. 

AS FOR MIG21 there are only mig21 bisons left in frontline IAF service HENCE the reason for IAF falling nos to just 600 planes.

ie 

140 su30mki = 7 sqds
60 mig29 = 3 sdqs
50 mirage2000 = 3 sdqs
110 jaguar = 5.5 sqds
120 mig27 = 7 sdqs
125 mig21v bisons = 7 sqds 

= 32.5 sqds 

PAF on the other hand has 175 mirage 3/5 nearly half the entire fleet 

175 mirage 3/5
180 F7
44 F16 BLOCK 15
18 F16 BLOCK 52
30 Thunder mk1 

450 planes

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## Xracer

dont forget 50 Thunders on emergency bases and then it comes to Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra i think it will produce 65 to 75 Thunders by 2014 and also dont forget Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Nawabshah is under construction and when Nawabshah Aeronautical Complex is Completed i think you know the rest of tha story dont you


Storm Force said:


> zia
> 
> PAF has inducted 30 THUNDERS since 2009
> 
> We are now in 2011
> 
> YOU WILL NOT INDUCT 120 THUNDERS IN 3 YEARS.
> 
> PAF does not have the finances nor the infrastucture to maintain so many new fighters in 3 years.
> 
> in fact no country in the world can induct that NO OF new combat planes in 3 years BAR USA.
> 
> infact THUNDER WAS suppose to be getting a upgrade AESA RADAR before the 2nd batch of 50 was ordered.
> 
> AS FOR MIG21 there are only mig21 bisons left in frontline IAF service HENCE the reason for IAF falling nos to just 600 planes.
> 
> ie
> 
> 140 su30mki = 7 sqds
> 60 mig29 = 3 sdqs
> 50 mirage2000 = 3 sdqs
> 110 jaguar = 5.5 sqds
> 120 mig27 = 7 sdqs
> 125 mig21v bisons = 7 sqds
> 
> = 32.5 sqds
> 
> PAF on the other hand has 175 mirage 3/5 nearly half the entire fleet
> 
> 175 mirage 3/5
> 180 F7
> 44 F16 BLOCK 15
> 18 F16 BLOCK 52
> 30 Thunder mk1
> 
> 450 planes


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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> zia
> 
> PAF has inducted 30 THUNDERS since 2009
> 
> We are now in 2011
> 
> YOU WILL NOT INDUCT 120 THUNDERS IN 3 YEARS.
> 
> PAF does not have the finances nor the infrastucture to maintain so many new fighters in 3 years.
> 
> in fact no country in the world can induct that NO OF new combat planes in 3 years BAR USA.
> 
> infact THUNDER WAS suppose to be getting a upgrade AESA RADAR before the 2nd batch of 50 was ordered.
> 
> AS FOR MIG21 there are only mig21 bisons left in frontline IAF service HENCE the reason for IAF falling nos to just 600 planes.
> 
> ie
> 
> 140 su30mki = 7 sqds
> 60 mig29 = 3 sdqs
> 50 mirage2000 = 3 sdqs
> 110 jaguar = 5.5 sqds
> 120 mig27 = 7 sdqs
> 125 mig21v bisons = 7 sqds
> 
> = 32.5 sqds
> 
> PAF on the other hand has 175 mirage 3/5 nearly half the entire fleet
> 
> 175 mirage 3/5
> 180 F7
> 44 F16 BLOCK 15
> 18 F16 BLOCK 52
> 30 Thunder mk1
> 
> 450 planes



few weeks back we had the news that kamara has completed 36 aircrafts out of 42, meaning number for jf-17 is 44..i.e by october end we will have all 50 inducted

2012,13,14 will each see approximately 30 -35 more aircrafts added..so we will have 150 by end of 2014..even if we add merely 25 per year at current speed we will have 150 by 2015, howver rate has been increased

other addition will be 36-56 j-10(depends)
and probably 14 to 32 f-16s(depends upon whether PAF goes for 18 more or not)

i think indian members should understand that money is not a problem..its only that politicians put defense behind the other things
besides total procurement plan will not cost more than 4 billion dollars i next four years.even our current defence budget if freezed can pay for it..
its not like we are throwing away money as India does in its defence deals


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## The Deterrent

What type of payload/pod is this Mirage carrying on the center-line fuselage pylon?...Is it a recce pod?

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## Windjammer

AhaseebA said:


> What type of payload/pod is this Mirage carrying on the center-line fuselage pylon?...Is it a recce pod ?


_It's called LORAP (Long Range Aerial Reconnaissance pod)._

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## monitor

A compendium of mirage fighter in PAF

Pakistan Air Forces association with Mirages started after 1965 war when PAF air chief Nur Khan decided to induct a non-US delta winged fighter aircraft. Even after 44 years, PAF&#8217; s adventure with Mirages is still on going. Following research article is written to shed some light about the contracts, types and current status of Mirages in PAF. The factors related to such long service will later be discussed in some other article.

Major Contracts:
&#8226; Blue Flash-I 1967/1968 :24 aircraft comprising 18 Mirage-IIIEP , 3 Mirage-IIIRP, 3 Mirage-IIIDP
&#8226; Blue Flash-II 1970 : 30 aircraft comprising 28 Mirage-VPA , 2 Mirage-IIIDP
&#8226; Blue Flash-III 1977 : 10 Mirage-IIIRP
&#8226; Blue Flash-IV 1978 : 32 aircraft comprising 30 Mirage-V PA2/3, 2 Mirage-VDPA2
&#8226; Blue Flash-V 1990 : 50 aircraft comprising 42 Mirage-IIIEA, 8 Mirage-IIIDA
&#8226; Blue Flash-VI 1996 : 39 aircraft comprising 33 Mirage-VEF, 6 Mirage-IIIDF

More contracts:
&#8226; In 2001/02, PAF acquired 10 Mirage-IIIs(9 Mirage-IIIEE and 1 Mirage-IIIDL) from Lebanon, which were stored since 1980s. All these aircraft have flown 300-600hrs and were the best option of PAF.

&#8226; In 2003, PAF purchased 12 Mirage-IIIEE and 1 Mirage-IIIDE from Spain. All of them were bought as spares for the operational Mirage fleet. None of them was made operational

&#8226; In 2004 PAF purchased good number of Mirages from Libya, which were stored for past 15 years. These aircraft have 400-600 hrs on the airframe, and were in pretty good condition.

PAF&#8217; s shopping list included 4 Mirage-VDR ,6 Mirage-VDD, ,12 Mirage-VD and 25 Mirage-VDE. Only 14 of them were put into service after being overhauled at MRF, PAC Kamra. More Ex-Libyan Mirages were also sold to PAF in late 2007, all these were used as spare cannibalization.

Mirage Serial numbers:
The first two left digits in Serial number denote the fiscal year ordered in which aircraft was ordered.
i.e 96-785 means aircraft serial 785 ordered in year 1995
100 series &#8211; Mirage IIIEP (18 aircraft ordered 1967/1968 )
200 series &#8211; Mirage IIIRP (Ordered in 2 batches, 3 in 1968 and 10 in 1977)
300 series &#8211; Mirage IIID and Mirage VD (3 ordered in 1968, 3 in 1970 , 2 in 1979)
400 series &#8211; Mirage V (28 Mirage VPA in 1970, 30 Mirage VPA2/3 in 1979)
500 series &#8211; Ex-RAAF Mirage IIIO designated as Mirage-IIIEA (1990)
600 series &#8211; Ex-French AF Mirage-IIIDA (1968)
700 series &#8211; Ex-French AF Mirage VEF (ordered in 1996)
800 series &#8211; Ex-RAAF Mirage IIIDF
900 series &#8211; Ex-Lebanese 9 Mirage-IIIEL, 1 Mirage-IIIDL (2001/02)
000 series &#8211; Ex-Libyan 14 Mirage-VDD

Current operational units:
No.7 Sqn &#8216;Bandits&#8217; &#8211; Masroor AB, Karachi
No.8 Sqn &#8216;Haiders&#8217; &#8211; Masroor AB, Karachi
No.15 Sqn &#8216;Cobras&#8217; &#8211; Rafiqui AB, Shorkot
No.22 Sqn &#8216;Ghazis&#8217; &#8211; Masroor AB, Karachi
No.25 Sqn &#8216;Eagles&#8217; &#8211;Shahbaz AB, Jacobabad
No.27 Sqn &#8216;Zarrars&#8217; &#8211; Rafiqui AB, Shorkot
CCS Mirage &#8211; Mushaf AB, Sargodha

Reserve units:
No.5 Sqn &#8216;Falcons&#8217; &#8211; Rafiqui AB, Shorkot
In June, 2010 No.5 Sqn&#8217;s Mirages were withdrawn from service after induction of F-16 Block-52 aircraft. Fewer Mirages which still have less hours on the airframe were allotted to other squadrons whereas most of them were kept in stores as reserves. No.5 Squadron&#8217;s Tactical Attack and Reconnaissance related equipment was also distributed among other operational squadrons. 

Mirages &#8211; operational status:
In the course of this research I have made a list of operational status of Mirage-III/V aircraft in PAF inventory. The list might not be 100% accurate, but it&#8217;s definitely gives a very close look of Mirages.

Question mark &#8216;?&#8217; denotes an assumption that these aircraft might be a part of squadron inventory.
No.5 Sqn ( retired)
Following list is based upon the last known strength of No.5 Sqn before retirement.
Mirage-IIIRP 67-(202 203 204)? 206 210 211
Mirage-IIIDA 67-608 611 612
Mirage-IIIEA 90-511 581 587 596
Mirage-VDR 903
Mirage-IIIEP 104 105 106 107 108 114 115 116
Earlier retired Mirage-IIIEP aircraft
&#8226; 67-101 (placed at MRF, Kamra &#8211; pattern aircraft for GV-III)
&#8226; 67-112 placed outside Rafiqui AB.
&#8226; 67-112 113 117 118 are removed from service before getting 2nd overhaul
&#8226; 67-119 gifted to China, placed in museum

No.7 Sqn
No.7 Sqn operates 16-18 Mirages in Tactical Attack role. All Mirages are upgraded to ROSE-I standard at PAC Kamra and are used for deep penetration and interdiction missions also.
Mirage-IIIDP 73-301( PAC) 302
Ex-Libyan Mirage-VDD 00-005
Ex-RAAF Mirage-IIIO(F) &#8211; designated as Mirage-IIIEA after ROSE upgrade in 1996
90- 510 512(CCS) 513 515 519 525 531 533 535 538 560 565 584 583(probe &#8211; PAC) 586 588
&#8226; Mirage-IIIEA 90-512 loaned by CCS Mirage Sqn
&#8226; Mirage-IIIEA 90-583 used by MRF for flight trails of air-air refueling
&#8226; Mirage-IIIDP 73-301 used by MRF for flight trails of air-air refueling

No.8 Sqn
No.8 Sqn operates Mirage-VPA2 and Mirage-VPA3 aircraft for both ground and maritime attack role. The unit&#8217;s Mirage-VPA3 aircraft are equipped with AM-39 anti shipping missile (range 35 miles/55kms) and are used for naval support, where as Mirage-VPA2 are used for tactical attack role.
Mirage-V PA2/PA3 79-433 434 437 440 441 442? 443 445 447 449 450 451 454 455 456 457
Mirage-VDPA2 73-307
Mirage-VDP 70-305? 308 ?

No.15 Sqn
No.15 Sqn mainly operates Mirage-VPA for tactical attack role. It also operates some some Ex-Libyan Mirage-VDD examples for fighter conversion, exact details of which aren&#8217;t available.
Mirage-VPA 70-401 404 406 408 411 412 432
Mirage-IIIDA 67- 601 604 672
Mirage-VDD 04-010

No.22 Sqn
No.22 Sqn being an Operational Conversion Unit(OCU) is tasked with new pilots training and conversion on Mirage aircraft.
Ex-Lebanese Mirage-IIIEL/DL 90-904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911
Mirage-IIIDF 96-861 867 874 875 876

No.25 Sqn
No.25 Sqn is tasked with tactical and night attack role. Following list only contains the available details of Mirages in No.25 Sqn. It may be possible the some of the following Mirage-VEF aircraft are currently serving in No.27 Sqn.
Mirage-IIIDP 73-303
Mirage-VDD 00-002
Mirage-VEF 96-702(loaned by CCS) 707 711 717 718 719 725 736 740 741 743 755 758

No.27 Sqn
In April 2007, second ROSE-III Mirages squadron No.27 Sqn stood up at Rafiqui. Some No.25 Sqn Mirage-VEF aircraft were also allotted to this squadron. Following list is incomplete as this squadron operates at least 10 Mirage-VEF aircraft. No.27 Sqn is tasked with tactical and night attack role.
Mirage-VEF 96-728 745 746 747 752 757
Mirage-VDD 04-001 004

CCS Mirage Sqn:
CCS Mirage operates 12-14 aircraft, few aircraft are loaned from other operational squadrons also.
In CCS Mirage Sqn, advance lessons on combat readiness and air-combat is given to pilots. Following list is in-complete as this unit operates 12-14 examples of Mirage-IIIEA aircraft, which joined unit in 1996.
Mirage-IIIEA 90-522 527 552 553 554 599

Un-categorized aircraft:
Ex Libyan Mirage-VDD 04-003 005 006 007 008 009 (Serving in 7,15,25,27 Squadrons)
Ex-French AF Mirage-VEF Serving in No.25 and No.27 Squadrons
96- 722 732 734 738 746 743 739 748 749 754 750 

Ex-French AF Mirage-VPA, some of the following are still serving in No.15 Sqn where as other have been withdrawn from service and used as spares for other similar examples. Following aircraft are also not part of above posted squadron inventory.
70-402 408 407 409 415 418 417 420 422 429 430 422 427 432 435
&#8226; 70-405 (crashed)
&#8226; 70-424 Placed at PAF museum

Following ex-RAAF Mirages were inducted in Nov 1990, after being overhauled in 1996 they were brought to service again. Some of the following are serving in CCS Mirage Sqn, where as others are used as spares cannibalization.
Mirage-IIIO(F) &#8211; RAAF designation A3-2 ( PAF designation 90-502)
Mirage-IIIEA 90-502 505 506 509 511 517 521 523 524 525 534 539 544 556 562 568 571 573 584 586 593
Mirage-IIIDA 67-603 613

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## SBD-3

ziaulislam said:


> few weeks back we had the news that kamara has completed 36 aircrafts out of 42, meaning number for jf-17 is 44..i.e by october end we will have all 50 inducted
> 
> 2012,13,14 will each see approximately 30 -35 more aircrafts added..so we will have 150 by end of 2014..even if we add merely 25 per year at current speed we will have 150 by 2015, howver rate has been increased
> 
> other addition will be 36-56 j-10(depends)
> and probably 14 to 32 f-16s(depends upon whether PAF goes for 18 more or not)
> 
> i think indian members should understand that money is not a problem..*its only that politicians put defense behind the other things*besides total procurement plan will not cost more than 4 billion dollars i next four years.even our current defence budget if freezed can pay for it..
> its not like we are throwing away money as India does in its defence deals


With 60% of national budget being allocated to military (apart from dual use bugdet) do you really think so??????


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## Sapper

hasnain0099 said:


> With 60% of national budget being allocated to military (apart from dual use bugdet) do you really think so??????



Dear,

Please get your facts straight before you comment e.g.

Pakistan's 2011~12 Federal Bugdet amounts to be around Rs 3259 billion.
Pakistan's 2011~12 Military Budget amounts to be around Rs 495 billion.

I leave the percentage calculations to you, but incase your calculator is a bit buggy, the percentage comes out to be 15.1%.

Regards,
Hassan


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## trident2010

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> Please get your facts straight before you comment e.g.
> 
> Pakistan's 2011~12 Federal Bugdet amounts to be around Rs 3259 billion.
> Pakistan's 2011~12 Military Budget amounts to be around Rs 495 billion.
> 
> I leave the percentage calculations to you, but incase your calculator is a bit buggy, the percentage comes out to be *15.1%*.
> 
> Regards,
> Hassan



15% of total budget only for defence is way too much !!


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## Storm Force

Hasnain.

INDIA thowing away money in defense deals. YOUR KIDDING RIGHT

270 SU30MKI for $13 billon (i bet u wish paf could get that money)

1650 T90 for $3m each

both deals to include license build in india 

MMRCA to include 30% offset BACK INTO INDIA like $4 billion dollars go back into indian firms 

i think the indians are shopping very smart

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## Imran Khan

storm force again in action on mission to make every thread abut india

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## Sapper

trident2010 said:


> 15% of total budget only for defence is way too much !!



Again ... Some "Comment for the sake of Comment" before you got to analyse data or do some research.

For example ...

India's 2011~12 Federal Budget amounts to be around INR 1,020,838 crore.
India's 2011~12 Military Budget amounts to be around INR 164,415 crore.

A simple calculation shows this to be around 16.1%.
Please Comment away ...

Regards,
Hassan

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## Shahzad Sultan

Storm Force said:


> Hasnain.
> 
> INDIA thowing away money in defense deals. YOUR KIDDING RIGHT
> 
> 270 SU30MKI for $13 billon (i bet u wish paf could get that money)
> 
> 1650 T90 for $3m each
> 
> both deals to include license build in india
> 
> MMRCA to include 30% offset BACK INTO INDIA like $4 billion dollars go back into indian firms
> 
> i think the indians are shopping very smart



why you always bring india in every thread, perhaps you have some psychological problem isn't it !

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## HANI

Yes they have all the problems with us


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## Najam Khan

Count the durandals

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## fatman17

NAjAM Khan said:


> Count the durandals



6 on each wing!?


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> 6 on each wing!?



Sir, I think you are missing the two on the centre line pylon.

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## DANGER-ZONE

^ i guess two Fuel tank can carry 4 bombs each and two under belly. but RAAF M3s were seen carrying upto six bombs under fuselage. 
Browse First page http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a.html, i ve posted several Bomb configuration on fuel tanks.


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## Luftwaffe

danger-zone said:


> ^ i guess two Fuel tank can carry 4 bombs each and two under belly. but RAAF M3s were seen carrying upto six bombs under fuselage.
> Browse First page http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a.html, i ve posted several Bomb configuration on fuel tanks.



What about structural integrity, does it not put stress on structure and fuselage over all those were relatively in good shape Mirages its been 15 Years and over all 30 Years or so.


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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> ^ i guess two Fuel tank can carry 4 bombs each and two under belly. but RAAF M3s were seen carrying upto six bombs under fuselage.



with the attachments on the fuel tanks, Mirage-5 can carry up to 14 Bombs under the wings and fuselage.

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## regular

Looks like Mirage is pretty much powerful aircraft here....ummm...


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


>



A killing look.
This is from Al-Sqoor II, i guess. 



Windjammer said:


> with the attachments on the fuel tanks, Mirage-5 can carry up to 14 Bombs under the wings and fuselage.



Those two hard points b/w fuselage and fuel tank just behind the rare landing gears, are making me wonder if it is really a Mirage-5 or Kfir. 
Kfir has four extra hard points like mirage 2000-5/9. Can u dig a lil more which mirage Version this is ? because i ve never seen those hardpoints on M5.

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## F86 Saber

There's a Mirage III displayed on the main gate of Fazaya Housing Society on Raiwind Road Lahore with tail # 67-001 i see every day on my way to the office. I believe it's from the retired Migrage III's of the 5th Squadron, can anyone confirm?


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## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> A killing look.
> This is from Al-Sqoor II, i guess.



Indeed.




> Those two hard points b/w fuselage and fuel tank just behind the rare landing gears, are making me wonder if it is really a Mirage-5 or Kfir.
> Kfir has four extra hard points like mirage 2000-5/9. Can u dig a lil more which mirage Version this is ? because i ve never seen those hardpoints on M5.



The aircraft is a Mirage-5 of the French Air Force, which never operated any Kfirs.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> The aircraft is a Mirage-5 of the French Air Force, which never operated any Kfirs.



Ya i ve noticed the French marking on Intake but still want to know about those 6th & 7th hardpoints. 
Whether PAF Mirages-5 posses this ability or not.


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## Dazzler

i do not see any reason why PAF aircraft do not possess this capability. Infact, i have seen a few here in karachi that can be termed as bomb trucks.


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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> i do not see any reason why PAF aircraft do not possess this capability. Infact, i have seen a few here in karachi that can be termed as bomb trucks.



Indeed its a bomb truck, there are enough pictures of HEAVY LOADED mirage in this thread that proves it. 
but i am concerned about the two hard poitns like Kfir.





------------------------------------------------
i found my answer. Mirage 5 has two additional hard points.. i never knew that. 
GREAT GREAT .. 


> Conceived as a ground attack fighter for operation under VFR conditions and using the same airframe and power plant as the Mirage IIIE, the Mirage 5 was first flown on 19 May 1967. Possessing a redesigned nose which could accommodate an Aida ranging radar, increased fuel capacity and two additional stores hardpoints, the Mirage 5 carried basic armament including two 30mm cannon in an 4000kg weapon capability. http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/dassault_mirage-5.php


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## Dazzler

Well, i have no idea if our mir is compatible with those additional hard points. Rose Mirages have a better Ring Laser Gyros (RGS) system compared to Mirage 2000 (non dash 5). Mir 2000 has Uliss 52 unit, Rose has Uliss 92 unit with dynamically tuned dry accelerometers common in both. Both use the same UTR-90 mission computers. Rose Mirage has a better ECM suite than

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## Windjammer

It must be noted that while the Mirage-5 has a theoretical limit of 8000 Lbs of ordnance, such weight are seldom carried into a battlefield.

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## Cool_Soldier

Which A2A missile PAF mirage can fire?


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## SQ8

Easy way to tell if its a Kfir or not(in case you have a photo of that angle).. look at the nozzle, the one for the Kfir is larger and more shaped due to the J-79.
Also.. the heavily loaded mirage with the fuselage points is indeed a mirage.. but a mirage 50.. with the more powerful Atar 09K-50.


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## Cool_Soldier

can we compare mirage rose with mirage 2000...? whats technical comparatively ratio between both....?


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## Dazzler

This was the purpose of ROSE/ MAESTRO package, i.e. to bring Mirage 3/5 avionics/ radar/ weapon and sensor capabilities on par with early fourth generation aircrafts. There was also a digital FBW refit package offered for Mirage 3/5 and tested on a Mirage 3 NG prototype. Canard was added to increase lift but was not opted by many countries as it increased weight hence demanded a more powerful 9k or in South Africa's case, rd-33 engine. This made the upgrade package almost unaffordable.

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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> Easy way to tell if its a Kfir or not(in case you have a photo of that angle).. look at the nozzle, the one for the Kfir is larger and more shaped due to the J-79.
> Also.. the heavily loaded mirage with the fuselage points is indeed a mirage.. but a mirage 50.. with the more powerful Atar 09K-50.



Another main feature on Kfir are the front Canards, and a fairing at the root of the tail.


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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> *Well, i have no idea if our mir is compatible with those additional hard points*. Rose Mirages have a better Ring Laser Gyros (RGS) system compared to Mirage 2000 (non dash 5). Mir 2000 has Uliss 52 unit, Rose has Uliss 92 unit with dynamically tuned dry accelerometers common in both. Both use the same UTR-90 mission computers. Rose Mirage has a better ECM suite than



Hehe haha .... Found something on Page#12. 
See, four bombs on Fuel tank and two under Fuselage while one b/w Tanks and Fuselage is easily visible.
this is Mirage-VPA hence proves that PAF MV posses additional hardpoints.

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## DANGER-ZONE

*New Markings for Pakistan Mirage 5.*
_No.25 Squadron 'Eagles' of the PAF based at Rafiqui has recently painted Dassault Mirage 5 in luminescent markings in a bid to distinguish its aircraft from the other co-located night attack Mirage unit, No. 27 Squadron._

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Specially marked Mirage V EF*
_Rafiqui-based 25 squadron ( Eagles) has recently painted it's Mirages in infra-red markings in a bid to distinguish it's aircraft from the co-located night attack Mirage unit, 27 squadron._



Windjammer said:


> *Sorry for the poor quality, you can see the infra-red markings on the tail and under the canopy of No 25 squadron's Mirage-5EF, home base Rafiqui.
> *



Original post by WINDJAMMER ..


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## DANGER-ZONE

These Infra-red Lights are more like Electroluminescence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia lights of modern aircraft.

*I have also seen Picture of Mirage-VEF 719 of Sqn. 25 having same Green light unlike 756*


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## Nishan_101

I think it was quite possible for the PAF in 1980s to produce these type of Mirages at PAC with French help for about 210 along 30-50 dual seats of such type and with another 21-30 examples of reconnaissance version for reconnaissance and intelligence purposes then I am sure the PAC would look different from what is now and what it was before.


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## umair86

Instead of Mirage III/V we would have looked at Mirage F-1 in the 80s for local production.


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## Nishan_101

umair86 said:


> Instead of Mirage III/V we would have looked at Mirage F-1 in the 80s for local production.


I think Mirage-IIIs are much capable ones as they have longer range along with greater payload capacity too and we can put our choice of avionics on it that can be from France, Italy, U.K, Germany/Sweden.


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## MastanKhan

umair86 said:


> Instead of Mirage III/V we would have looked at Mirage F-1 in the 80s for local production.



Hi,

I believe that we were offered that option by the french in the mid to late 70's---to build a manufacturing / asembly plant. There are some posts here on this board on that subject.

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## umair86

Nishan_101 said:


> I think Mirage-IIIs are much capable ones as they have longer range along with greater payload capacity too and we can put our choice of avionics on it that can be from France, Italy, U.K, Germany/Sweden.



Mirage III/V no doubt has a little bit more range but in capability it is no much for F-1 which can fly curls around a Mirage III/V as for payload pretty much they are equal. Also if we had added the canard layout dog tooth wing like IAI Kfir or Atlas Cheetah than there would have been a performance boast.


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## Edevelop

Can our Mirage III/V fire BVR Missiles??


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## Nishan_101

I still think that PAF as well as PAC has missed a great chance of not license producing the Mirage-IIIs as they would have provided better platform.



Nishan_101 said:


> I think it was quite possible for the PAF in 1980s to produce these type of Mirages at PAC with French help for about 210 along 30-50 dual seats of such type and with another 21-30 examples of reconnaissance version for reconnaissance and intelligence purposes then I am sure the PAC would look different from what is now and what it was before.


Man if we had a fleet like that along with 110 F-7Ps/FT-7Ps then it would be totally a different story for the region. along with the 39 F-16s


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## Edevelop



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## nomi007

is any 1 have official pic of h-2 and h-4


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## Dimitrizacari

great pics


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## ice_man

mirage IIIs are fighters of a generation gone by time for PAF to invest in Grippen or Mirage 2000s inorder to catch up. These fighters were good in the 70s but not anymore!


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## Najam Khan

ice_man said:


> mirage IIIs are fighters of a generation gone by time for PAF to invest in Grippen or Mirage 2000s inorder to catch up. These fighters were good in the 70s but not anymore!


Two main reasons why they are still flying:
1. Their replacement is underway in form of JF-17. Lack of funds/economic strength/political stability are the main reason why we collected Mirages from around the world.
2. PAF learned lots of new-things with them (especially the ROSE upgrade) and they invested so much that naturally they became the need of PAF. 

Mirages might be poor for A-A, but for A-G missions its still the best aircraft for us before maturity of JF-17/procurement of FC-20.

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## Real LAVi

M.ASIF AMIN said:


> I LOVE MIRAGE
> PAF mirages also capable H-2 (R-Darter) BVR missile, and H-4(Raptor-2 )standoff weapon


 
H-2 (Raptor-1) is also an earlier version of Raptor-2, and both are STOW


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## Windjammer

Any idea what weapon this variant of the Mirage is carrying. ??

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## Manticore

Raptor II = H4 ?





The longest ranged of these weapons is the Raptor. Originally developed with DoD funding, foreign investment has allowed the development of an improved version, the Raptor II, which is in production for the investor country. While the Raptor I is an unpowered PGM, the Raptor II is an ASM, with significantly greater range.


















H-2 is the AGM, [perhaps version of raptor 1] 



please correct me if I am wrong




old pak def article


> "It is a widely circulated rumor among the PAF critics that Pakistan acquired South African MUPSOW, a multi-purpose, surgical-strike weapon, designed to neutralize enemy targets such as airfields, bunkers and command-and-control centres at standoff ranges. Pinpoint accuracy is achieved by using an advanced navigation and terminal guidance technology. It is also known that between 1996-98 Pakistan bought category A and B military hardware which includes sensitive major significant equipment, such as fighter jets and other large systems. Some sources also report that PAF was also testing South African Raptor I and II precision guided munitions which were designed based on Mirage III/Cheetah being the primary platform of launch.
> 
> Although identified as the DART pod, this appears identical to Rafael's LITENING pod. Other Mirage 5F upgrades included an integrated electronic warfare suite, on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS), and single point pressure refueling. One of the key features of the ROSE upgrade was the induction of Italian FIAR Grifo-M radar, which is a copy of US made APG-68 radar. This gave these aircraft the capability of carrying BVR missiles. At the time Pakistan was interested in South African Darter series of missiles, which later on fell through due to sanctions imposed, by South Africa when military government took over after a bloodless coup. "



MUPSOW





mirage- raad

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Any idea what weapon this variant of the Mirage is carrying. ??



are these mirages or KFIR's?

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## Manticore

Windjammer said:


> Any idea what weapon this variant of the Mirage is carrying. ??



MUPSOW
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...bilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a-15.html#post4437412

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> are these mirages or KFIR's?



Sir, to be frank, I wasn't sure whether it's IAI Kfir or Atlas Cheetah.....but i believe they are both Mirage derivatives.

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## Manticore

fatman17 said:


> are these mirages or KFIR's?



I think they are S.African cheetahs later bought by ecuador





















probe location is different

















dated2004
ISLAMABAD, Dec 17: Pakistan Air Force has integrated the H-4 out-of-sight target bombs in its arsenal of fighter aircraft, official sources said. The incorporation of H-4 bombs have added to the capability of the PAF to hit out-of-sight targets from a distance of up to 120 kilometres to evade enemy radars during air strikes. A lighter version of the bomb, H-2 model, can hit the out-of-sight targets from a range of up to 60 kilometres. 
*
"It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region," sources said. *

The indigenously produced H-4 bombs is an achievement of the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), which works in close collaboration with Pakistan Missile Organizationand the Air Weapons Complex. 

"Three successful tests of H-4, with the latest conducted this year, produced satisfactory results leading to addition of arsenal in the fighter jets," the sources said. 

The H-4 bombs have been made through indigenous efforts by modifying the technological design of South African T-Darter BVR missiles. Till the induction of JF-17 Thunder in 2006, with a provision for BVRs, the H-2 and H-4 bombs could be carried by Mirage fighter jets. The H-4 infrared device is said to be comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 in the Indian arsenal.

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## Manticore

The PAF Mirage ROSE Upgrade

06/22/2013
[4 hours ago]



The Pakistani ROSE (Retrofit of Strike Element) Mirage III/V remain a major asset until the JF-17 replaces them. The Mirages have been a blessing for Pakistan, in a time when it had very few options open. Pakistani Mirages have served a wide range of roles, from nuclear delivery to recon.

They have been the only fighters to support the PN with an anti-surface capability with the Exocet. In exercises, they have been the only fighters to defeat the vaunted F-16s in the PAF. PAF Mirages have served a wide range of other roles including air defence, with BVR R-Darter missiles to deep strike with the Mirage Vs. Most importantly, Mirages gave Pakistan the confidence to pursue, and opportunity to build, an extensive foray into combat aircraft manufacturing capability, that finally culminated in the JF-17.

It is also widely believed that the ROSE Mirages will continue to serve, along with the JF-17s post 2015. We here look back in time to consider the Mirage and its upgrade with the PAF.

The ROSE project was conceived in 1992 and begun on April 1995. PAF's main concern was to replace the A-5s that were deemed to retire in 1997. The aim was to raise two squadrons that were capable of a surface attack role, building a strike and precision strike capability. 

PAF went on a shopping trip to thus buy and rebuild secondhand Mirages and sources included Belgium, Spain, France, Lebanon and Zaire. The operational requirement was for fifty aircraft and forty aircraft were allocated funds of $120 million. PAF personnel visited Spain, France and Lebanon, among other countries and inspected 96 Mirages.

SAGEM, a French company which specializes in avionics and defense electronics, was to provide some of the equipment for upgrading the Mirages with their inertial navigation and system integration departments. However, SAGEM was looking for making more and proposed an additional forty Mirages for $150 million. 

This opportunity came as a result of PAF's enthusiasm for forty Mirage Vs and about forty Mirage IIIs of the French Air Force, which were available for sale at quite a reasonable price. The French Mirage V suited the PAF requirement because of its longer range and greater payload. PAF negotiated and the price came down eventually to $124 million and finally to $118 million by contract signing. 

The package included thirty-four Mirage Vs and six dual-seat Mirage IIIs, making a total of forty fully overhauled aircraft. Out of the forty aircraft, twenty Mirage Vs would be modernized to the ROSE-II standards. These Mirage V ROSE-II were to receive an identical upgrade to ROSE-I, with the difference being that the Grifo-M radar is replaced by FLIR. The Grifo M, somewhat of a copy of the US APG-68, provided the Mirages with a significant improvement in look-down-shoot down capability, and more controversially, the ability to carry BVR missiles.

The details of the package included engines installed on the aircraft would have a minimum life of four years and 300 hours and inclusion of ground support, alternate mission equipment, and line replaceable units. Additionally, kits were to be provided for RWR, CFD and GPS. 

The modifications were done in France since PAC Kamra was during that time frame, already busy overhauling the PAF's existing Mirages. Accepting any additional work would have unnecessarily delayed the delivery of the French Mirages to the PAF. However, SAGEM encountered problems on purchase of spares, which they needed for the timely and efficient running of their upgrade program and the company managed to get the first batch ready only by September 1998. A second batch of eight was received in 1999 while the third batch of eight came to Pakistan on 22 June 2000 and deliveries were completed by end of 2000. 

PAC Kamra, which had extensive experience in overhauling Mirages, F-6s and F-7s, was tasked with the work of overhauling and upgrading Mirages acquired from Australia to the ROSE upgrade standard. Pakistan had bought 50 Mirage IIIOs from Australia at a mere cost of $36 million. Most of these aircraft had less than 4000 flying hours on them and they were in excellent condition. 

PAC recovered forty-five aircraft and this included seven dual-seat models that were allotted to No. 5 Squadron. Of the remaining, there were thirty-two with ROSE configuration, one aircraft crashed, and another five were considered beyond recovery.

The avionics package included Inertial Navigation System, Heads Up Display, Airborne Video Tape Recording System, and self-protection systems like RWR, Chaff and Flares, essentially the same as the SAGEM upgrades. When the United States released 360 AIM-9L missiles under the Brown Amendment, the Mirages being upgraded and equipped with the Grifo-M radar were also made capable of carrying the AIM-9L missiles. 

Additional equipment include, for instance, IRCCD Forward Looking Infra Red navigation sensor for reconnaissance applications - laser rangefinder - air data sensors and computer - radar altimeter, and high capacity data transfer unit . In the French upgrade, GEC head-up display and HOTAS similar to Mirage-2000 is used.
*
Pakistan also acquired South African MUPSOW, a multi-purpose, surgical-strike weapon, designed to neutralize enemy targets such as airfields, bunkers and command-and-control centres at standoff ranges. Pinpoint accuracy is achieved by using an advanced navigation and terminal guidance technology. PAF also testing South African Raptor I and II precision guided munitions. PAF also uses the DART pod, which looks identical to Rafael's LITENING pod and potentially is acquired through South Africa. PAF is also believed to use the R-Darter as its BVR missile for her Mirages. Other Mirage 5F upgrades included an integrated electronic warfare suite, on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS), and single point pressure refueling.*

The final ROSE-III upgrade came for 14 more Mirage 5EF by SAGEM and included new Radar Warning Receiver (RWR);new Head-Up-Display (HUD); Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) and new mission computer (Dynamics).

http://www.grandestrategy.com/2013/06/the-paf-mirage-rose-upgrade.html

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## Dazzler

All ROSE Mirages have new UTR-90 mission computers

more details on SAGEM MAESTRO package..

MirSIP the end of the "Delta" in Belgium



closeup of FLIR/ LD

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## AUSTERLITZ

PAF indeed has done masterful job with mirages,they seem completely different aircraft.


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## Storm Force

IMO outside of USA the french have consistently BUILT and developed the best combat planes.

Mirage series HAS been a HUGE success story for DASSULT 

PAF have done well to have chosen this as their mainstay fighter for so long

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## fatman17

Storm Force said:


> IMO outside of USA the french have consistently BUILT and developed the best combat planes.
> 
> Mirage series HAS been a HUGE success story for DASSULT
> 
> PAF have done well to have chosen this as their mainstay fighter for so long



PAF Mirages are clearly past their prime except for 40 odd Mirages which were extensively upgraded for the night strike/nuclear role.

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## Tempest II

> @warnesyworld: Pak AF Air Cdre (ret) Saeed revealed In his presentation here that SAGEM proposed a ROSE IV upgrade based on Egyptian Mirage modernisation.



Presented at: http://tangentlink.com/event/military-mro-asia/

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## Najam Khan

Mirages true potential in ground role was (and is) still not shared in public/media/press. In late90s, PAF put some research on these machines and manage to enhance the performance its in basic design. Some local projects (and some co-started projects with SouthAfrican/French Aviation industry) like FLIR/STOW and Recce version's upgrade were some reasons we saw PAF eagerly going for Mirages.

If these Mirages had not developed that much potential after ROSE upgrades and local work, then PAF had either went for more F-7 (and later F-7MG variants). By no means Mirages were economical as compare to F-7s/F-6s, but the strength it added to PAF's surface attack/recce role was far more valuable.

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## Nishan_101

Najam Khan said:


> Mirages true potential in ground role was (and is) still not shared in public/media/press. In late90s, PAF put some research on these machines and manage to enhance the performance its in basic design. Some local projects (and some co-started projects with SouthAfrican/French Aviation industry) like FLIR/STOW and Recce version's upgrade were some reasons we saw PAF eagerly going for Mirages.
> 
> If these Mirages had not developed that much potential after ROSE upgrades and local work, then PAF had either went for more F-7 (and later F-7MG variants). By no means Mirages were economical as compare to F-7s/F-6s, but the strength it added to PAF's surface attack/recce role was far more valuable.



Although there might be some reasons behind, but I thought that if PAF had got it hands early on Labanese, Libyan & Australian Mirages then it would be great and even offer Egypt to buy or license produce Mirage-2000 and replace their Mirage Vs which are about 80 of them.


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## muse

Mirage 5 was specifically developed per israeli specs and for precisely the kind of groun attack that Najam Khan suggests

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## Nishan_101

Although now we all are expecting that with 100+ JF-17 Block-II we might going to replace the Mirages....


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## shanixee

Najam Khan said:


> Mirages true potential in ground role was (and is) still not shared in public/media/press. In late90s, PAF put some research on these machines and manage to enhance the performance its in basic design. Some local projects (and some co-started projects with SouthAfrican/French Aviation industry) like FLIR/STOW and Recce version's upgrade were some reasons we saw PAF eagerly going for Mirages.
> 
> If these Mirages had not developed that much potential after ROSE upgrades and local work, then PAF had either went for more F-7 (and later F-7MG variants). By no means Mirages were economical as compare to F-7s/F-6s, but the strength it added to PAF's surface attack/recce role was far more valuable.



Then why PAF extensively used F16 in fata operation. simply because Mirages are still not even close to 80 era F16 in ground attack


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## SQ8

shanixee said:


> Then why PAF extensively used F16 in fata operation. simply because Mirages are still not even close to 80 era F16 in ground attack



A quite ill informed statement. As the Mirages and A-5's all took part in FATA. However.. you cant bill the Americans for Mirage spares..

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## Bamboo Castle

DANGER-ZONE said:


> salam every one,
> 
> LETS HAVE A TALK ON DETAILED CAPABILITIES OF MIRAGE FIGHTER/ BOMBER.
> because ROSE upgraded mirage still have to serve at least 10 more years.
> 
> 
> *BASIC DETAILS*
> 
> *DIMENSIONS*:
> Length 49.29 ft (15.03 m)
> Wingspan 26.96 ft (8.22 m)
> Height 14.75 ft (4.50 m)
> Wing Area 375 ft² (34.85 m²)
> 
> 
> 
> *WEIGHTS*:
> Empty 15,540 lb (7,050 kg)
> Normal Takeoff 21,165 lb (9,600 kg)
> Max Takeoff 30,205 lb (13,700 kg)
> Fuel Capacity internal: 880 gal (3,340 L)
> external: unknown
> Max Payload
> 
> 8,820 lb (4,000 kg)
> 
> 
> *PROPULSION*:
> Powerplant one SNECMA Atar 9C afterburning turbojet
> Thrust 13,670 lb (60.8 kN) with afterburner
> 
> 
> *PERFORMANCE: *
> Max Level Speed at altitude: 1,460 mph (2,350 km/h) at 39,370 ft (12,000 m), Mach 2.2
> at sea level: 863 mph (1,390 km/h), Mach 1.14
> Initial Climb Rate 16,400 ft (5,000 m) / min
> Service Ceiling 55,755 ft (17,000 m)
> Range typical: 1,294 nm (2,400 km)
> ferry: 2,160 nm (4,000 km)
> g-Limits unknown
> 
> 
> *ARMAMENT*:
> Gun two 30-mm DEFA 552A cannons (125 rds ea)
> Stations five external hardpoints
> Air-to-Air Missile AIM-9 Sidewinder, Matra R.530, Matra 550 Magic
> Air-to-Surface Missile AS.30, AS.37, Wasp
> Bomb 250/400 kg bombs
> Other rocket pods, ECM pods
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *detail of ROSE upgrades*.
> 
> *ROSE I*
> New head-up display (HUD).
> New "hands on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) controls.
> New multi-function displays (MFD).
> New navigation systems on diaplay screen including an inertial navigation system (An Inertial Navigation System (INS) is a navigation aid that uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers) and rotation sensors (gyroscopes) to continuously calculate via dead reckoning the position, orientation, and velocity (direction and speed of movement) of a moving object without the need for external references. ) and GPS system.
> 
> New radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic counter-measures (ECM) suite and counter-measure dispensing system, dispensing decoy flares and chaff to confuse enemy missiles and radar.
> 
> FIAR Grifo M3 radar.
> Beyond visual range (BVR) capability.
> AIM-9L Sidewinder, AM39 (70180 kilometres) etc
> Add on of In-flight refuelling probes
> RA'AD Cruise Missil.
> 
> *ROSE II*
> 
> Enhanced night-time surface strike capability.
> SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system.
> 
> ROSE II fighters the capability to fly safely in the dark at very low level to avoid radar.
> 
> Few unknown enhancments.
> 
> ROSE III
> 
> New SAGEM navigation/attack avionics suite.
> Mirage 5 ROSE III fighters and specialise in night-time surface strike missions.



Still not quite ready to take on enemy fighters. Even after rose 1, 2 & 3 they are still no match against JF-17 or HAL tejas. Su-27, Su-30, Mig-29, F-16 are out of the question. However, they can prove good against J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21. Now, the problem is, countries are withdrawing those (J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21) from service. So who will the upgraded aircraft fight against?? 

In my opinion the Rose 1, 2 & 3 was a total waste of your tax payers valuable money and is a way your politicians got rich. With $150ml in 1992 buying power your govt. could have ordered for 20 brand new F-16/Mirage 2000 or 24 brand new Mig-29.


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## Bratva



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## Fieldmarshal

Bamboo Castle said:


> Still not quite ready to take on enemy fighters. Even after rose 1, 2 & 3 they are still no match against JF-17 or HAL tejas. Su-27, Su-30, Mig-29, F-16 are out of the question. However, they can prove good against J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21. Now, the problem is, countries are withdrawing those (J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21) from service. So who will the upgraded aircraft fight against??
> 
> In my opinion the Rose 1, 2 & 3 was a total waste of your tax payers valuable money and is a way your politicians got rich. With $150ml in 1992 buying power your govt. could have ordered for 20 brand new F-16/Mirage 2000 or 24 brand new Mig-29.



your analysis is way way off.
plz go through the forum n u might know how wrong u r

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## jamesseo89

I think PAF mirages are multi role ones. INSHA ALLAH they will soon going to be replaced with up coming 100 JF-17 Block-II with dual seat and 100 JF-17 Block-III with dual seat. Ameen
Along with J-31s which some people say belongs to PAC as well.


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## DANGER-ZONE

jamesseo89 said:


> I think PAF mirages are multi role ones. *INSHA ALLAH they will soon going to be replaced with up coming 100 JF-17 Block-II with dual seat and 100 JF-17 Block-III with dual seat*. *Ameen*
> 
> *Along with J-31s which some people say belongs to PAC as well.*



This is *Nishan_101*, i swear to god this is him ..... 
Same wishing style and *Ameen *or *Inshallah* in the end, *"Along with"* in every second sentence and above all *PAC* is interested & partner in every thing on earth.

Kill it before it lays eggs

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## jamesseo89

Who is Nishan??


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## razgriz19

DANGER-ZONE said:


> This is *Nishan_101*, i swear to god this is him .....
> Same wishing style and *Ameen *or *Inshallah* in the end, *"Along with"* in every second sentence and above all *PAC* is interested & partner in every thing on earth.
> 
> Kill it before it lays eggs



you're killing me man

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## razgriz19

Nishan_101 said:


> Although there might be some reasons behind, but I thought that if PAF had got it hands early on Labanese, Libyan & Australian Mirages then it would be great and even offer Egypt to buy or license produce Mirage-2000 and replace their Mirage Vs which are about 80 of them.



well PAF got mirages from almost every country.
And mirage-2k had no chance in PAF, i know there were some rumors, but IAF got them long ago.


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## jamesseo89

I was saying that if Egype would have joined the project with French in 1980s or license produced it in Egypt to replace Mirage-Vs, MiG-21/F-7s, F-5s and F-4s by 300 Mirage-2000s that they can produce and 150-200 F-16s (60-70 Block-15, 60-70 Block-40 and 120 Block-50/52s). From 1980s Till 2005


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## Gentelman

Bamboo Castle said:


> Still not quite ready to take on enemy fighters. Even after rose 1, 2 & 3 they are still no match against JF-17 or HAL tejas. Su-27, Su-30, Mig-29, F-16 are out of the question. However, they can prove good against J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21. Now, the problem is, countries are withdrawing those (J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21) from service. So who will the upgraded aircraft fight against??
> 
> In my opinion the Rose 1, 2 & 3 was a total waste of your tax payers valuable money and is a way your politicians got rich. With $150ml in 1992 buying power your govt. could have ordered for 20 brand new F-16/Mirage 2000 or 24 brand new Mig-29.



excise us bro these are of 90s era upgrades these are not upgraded now
and now this bird is going to be retired soon


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## fatman17

The PAF Mirage ROSE Upgrade 

06/22/2013



The Pakistani ROSE (Retrofit of Strike Element) Mirage III/V remain a major asset until the JF-17 replaces them. The Mirages have been a blessing for Pakistan, in a time when it had very few options open. Pakistani Mirages have served a wide range of roles, from nuclear delivery to recon.

They have been the only fighters to support the PN with an anti-surface capability with the Exocet. In exercises, they have been the only fighters to defeat the vaunted F-16s in the PAF. PAF Mirages have served a wide range of other roles including air defence, with BVR R-Darter missiles to deep strike with the Mirage Vs. Most importantly, Mirages gave Pakistan the confidence to pursue, and opportunity to build, an extensive foray into combat aircraft manufacturing capability, that finally culminated in the JF-17.

It is also widely believed that the ROSE Mirages will continue to serve, along with the JF-17s post 2015. We here look back in time to consider the Mirage and its upgrade with the PAF.


The ROSE project was conceived in 1992 and begun on April 1995. PAF's main concern was to replace the A-5s that were deemed to retire in 1997. The aim was to raise two squadrons that were capable of a surface attack role, building a strike and precision strike capability. 


PAF went on a shopping trip to thus buy and rebuild secondhand Mirages and sources included Belgium, Spain, France, Lebanon and Zaire. The operational requirement was for fifty aircraft and forty aircraft were allocated funds of $120 million. PAF personnel visited Spain, France and Lebanon, among other countries and inspected 96 Mirages.


SAGEM, a French company which specializes in avionics and defense electronics, was to provide some of the equipment for upgrading the Mirages with their inertial navigation and system integration departments. However, SAGEM was looking for making more and proposed an additional forty Mirages for $150 million. 


This opportunity came as a result of PAF's enthusiasm for forty Mirage Vs and about forty Mirage IIIs of the French Air Force, which were available for sale at quite a reasonable price. The French Mirage V suited the PAF requirement because of its longer range and greater payload. PAF negotiated and the price came down eventually to $124 million and finally to $118 million by contract signing. 


The package included thirty-four Mirage Vs and six dual-seat Mirage IIIs, making a total of forty fully overhauled aircraft. Out of the forty aircraft, twenty Mirage Vs would be modernized to the ROSE-II standards. These Mirage V ROSE-II were to receive an identical upgrade to ROSE-I, with the difference being that the Grifo-M radar is replaced by FLIR. The Grifo M, somewhat of a copy of the US APG-68, provided the Mirages with a significant improvement in look-down-shoot down capability, and more controversially, the ability to carry BVR missiles.


The details of the package included engines installed on the aircraft would have a minimum life of four years and 300 hours and inclusion of ground support, alternate mission equipment, and line replaceable units. Additionally, kits were to be provided for RWR, CFD and GPS. 


The modifications were done in France since PAC Kamra was during that time frame, already busy overhauling the PAF's existing Mirages. Accepting any additional work would have unnecessarily delayed the delivery of the French Mirages to the PAF. However, SAGEM encountered problems on purchase of spares, which they needed for the timely and efficient running of their upgrade program and the company managed to get the first batch ready only by September 1998. A second batch of eight was received in 1999 while the third batch of eight came to Pakistan on 22 June 2000 and deliveries were completed by end of 2000. 


PAC Kamra, which had extensive experience in overhauling Mirages, F-6s and F-7s, was tasked with the work of overhauling and upgrading Mirages acquired from Australia to the ROSE upgrade standard. Pakistan had bought 50 Mirage IIIOs from Australia at a mere cost of $36 million. Most of these aircraft had less than 4000 flying hours on them and they were in excellent condition. 


PAC recovered forty-five aircraft and this included seven dual-seat models that were allotted to No. 5 Squadron. Of the remaining, there were thirty-two with ROSE configuration, one aircraft crashed, and another five were considered beyond recovery.


The avionics package included Inertial Navigation System, Heads Up Display, Airborne Video Tape Recording System, and self-protection systems like RWR, Chaff and Flares, essentially the same as the SAGEM upgrades. When the United States released 360 AIM-9L missiles under the Brown Amendment, the Mirages being upgraded and equipped with the Grifo-M radar were also made capable of carrying the AIM-9L missiles. 


Additional equipment include, for instance, IRCCD Forward Looking Infra Red navigation sensor for reconnaissance applications - laser rangefinder - air data sensors and computer - radar altimeter, and high capacity data transfer unit . In the French upgrade, GEC head-up display and HOTAS similar to Mirage-2000 is used.


Pakistan also acquired South African MUPSOW, a multi-purpose, surgical-strike weapon, designed to neutralize enemy targets such as airfields, bunkers and command-and-control centres at standoff ranges. Pinpoint accuracy is achieved by using an advanced navigation and terminal guidance technology. PAF also testing South African Raptor I and II precision guided munitions. PAF also uses the DART pod, which looks identical to Rafael's LITENING pod and potentially is acquired through South Africa. PAF is also believed to use the R-Darter as its BVR missile for her Mirages. Other Mirage 5F upgrades included an integrated electronic warfare suite, on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS), and single point pressure refueling.


The final ROSE-III upgrade came for 14 more Mirage 5EF by SAGEM and included new Radar Warning Receiver (RWR);new Head-Up-Display (HUD); Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) and new mission computer (Dynamics).




Read more: Grande Strategy

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## SQ8

I wonder if anyone has any information on this "Identity crisis" Mirage scheme..


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## Fieldmarshal

Oscar said:


> I wonder if anyone has any information on this "Identity crisis" Mirage scheme..



that is an old pic.


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> I wonder if anyone has any information on this "Identity crisis" Mirage scheme..



Sir Ji, Ex-RAAF Mirage in original original scheme, the hi-viz is also flying with PAF.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Oscar said:


> I wonder if anyone has any information on this "Identity crisis" Mirage scheme..



Don't know the "Identity crisis" of Mirage scheme but i remember reading somewhere that this mirage was fitted with the wing of SAAF or LAF mirage.


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## fatman17

Libya.....Pakistan.....10.....Mirage-5-FGA aircraft.....SecondHand.....2004.....2007 - 2010.....Ex-Libyan; 50-70 delivered but most for spare parts only.
*Libya.....Pakistan.....150.....Atar-9-Turbojet.....	New.......................2004.....2004 - 2005....Ex-Libyan but probably never used*

Best move PAF made to ensure a good supply of engines for the huge Mirage fleet.


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## muse

fatman17 said:


> Best move PAF made to ensure a good supply of engines for the huge Mirage fleet.




Why can't Atar 9 be replaced by Chinese version of Rd93? What design changes would be necessary and could these be done by Kamra?


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## Donatello

muse said:


> Why can't Atar 9 be replaced by Chinese version of Rd93? What design changes would be necessary and could these be done by Kamra?



Atar 9 series is a turbojet.

RD-33/93 series is a turbo fan.


Plus RD93 offers more thrust in after burning mode.


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## muse

Donatello said:


> Atar 9 series is a turbojet.
> 
> RD-33/93 series is a turbo fan.
> 
> 
> Plus RD93 offers more thrust in after burning mode.



Thank you - Can you elaborate on why this is not feasible? If I remember correctly, SA and Israeli home made variants of Mirage once thought highly enough of the RD33 to use in their aircraft


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## nomi007

i hope paf will soon replace mirages with latest jf-17thunders


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## Donatello

muse said:


> Thank you - Can you elaborate on why this is not feasible? If I remember correctly, SA and Israeli home made variants of Mirage once thought highly enough of the RD33 to use in their aircraft



For starters, Atar 9C is about 400kgs heavier than the RD 33, not to mention the internal plumbing regarding the two different engine designs.

Why would you put a turbojet, that is heavier and uses more fuel providing less thrust, when you can have a more robust RD33/93?

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## ziaulislam

Bamboo Castle said:


> Still not quite ready to take on enemy fighters. Even after rose 1, 2 & 3 they are still no match against JF-17 or HAL tejas. Su-27, Su-30, Mig-29, F-16 are out of the question. However, they can prove good against J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21. Now, the problem is, countries are withdrawing those (J-7, Q-5, A-4, F-5 and Mig-21) from service. So who will the upgraded aircraft fight against??
> 
> In my opinion the Rose 1, 2 & 3 was a total waste of your tax payers valuable money and is a way your politicians got rich. With $150ml in 1992 buying power your govt. could have ordered for 20 brand new F-16/Mirage 2000 or 24 brand new Mig-29.


 at 150 million at best u would have got 3 or 4 f-16s plus we were on embargo anyway in 90s


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## BATMAN

muse said:


> Why can't Atar 9 be replaced by Chinese version of Rd93? What design changes would be necessary and could these be done by Kamra?



closest ever replacement for RD-93 is 'AI-222-25'

ÐÐ "ÐÐ²ÑÐµÐ½ÐºÐ¾-ÐÑÐ¾Ð³ÑÐµÑÑ". ÐÐ²Ð¸Ð°ÑÐ¸Ð¾Ð½Ð½ÑÐ¹ ÑÑÑÐ±Ð¾ÑÐµÐ°ÐºÑÐ¸Ð²Ð½ÑÐ¹ Ð´Ð²ÑÑÐºÐ¾Ð½ÑÑÑÐ½ÑÐ¹ Ð´Ð²Ð¸Ð³Ð°ÑÐµÐ»Ñ ÐÐ-222-25


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## muse

Donatello said:


> For starters, Atar 9C is about 400kgs heavier than the RD 33, not to mention the internal plumbing regarding the two different engine designs.
> 
> *Why would you put a turbojet, that is heavier and uses more fuel providing less thrust, when you can have a more robust RD33/93*?



Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to chinese version of RD 93


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## BATMAN

muse said:


> Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to chinese version of RD 93



There is no Chinese version of RD-93


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## Donatello

muse said:


> Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to chinese version of RD 93



My bad, i misunderstood that maybe you meant why not put the Atar 9 in JF-17.

My Apologies please.

Well, it was already hard negotiating for 150 RD33 engines from the Russians. So i am not sure if they would be willing to sell more. Plus re-engineering the Mirage with RD33 might not be very cost effective.


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## Gentelman

we just need to retire them&#8230;&#8230;
PAF is just working to mature JFT platform so that it can take Mairages place&#8230;&#8230;


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## Dazzler

Oscar said:


> I wonder if anyone has any information on this "Identity crisis" Mirage scheme..




New set of wings were imported from southern Africa about 15 pairs to be retrofitted on Rose mirages. Some Aussie and PAF mirages were modified with these wings.


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## Bamboo Castle

ziaulislam said:


> at 150 million at best u would have got 3 or 4 f-16s plus we were on embargo anyway in 90s



Who told you to buy F-16 only??? Go for Mig-29 or Su-27 or something else...


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## Bamboo Castle

muse said:


> Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to *chinese version of RD 93*



What did you mean by that? I have never heard of a Chinese version of RD-93... Just can't make things up my friend...



Gentelman said:


> *we just need to retire them*
> PAF is just working to mature JFT platform so that it can take Mairages place



Agreed, and you are absolutely correct... Stop investing on the old pieces of Craps and start investing those funds in the jf-17 and make it more capable to compete against the much advanced 4th gen fighters....


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## ziaulislam

Bamboo Castle said:


> Who told you to buy F-16 only??? Go for Mig-29 or Su-27 or something else...


mig 29 was not really offered even if it was available u would required 1-2 billion dollars for any meaning full number.
its not just buying aircrafts, you need weapons , air to air missles, maintenance and training crew and pilots. interoperablity with other aircrafts.. etc
why do you think so much time is being taken on jf-17 induction? training!


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## ziaulislam

muse said:


> Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make - that our Mirage aircraft switch from Atar 9 to chinese version of RD 93


 each rd93 costs 3 million dollars..just that alone is huge investment when the number of years on the airframe isnt that much a maximum of 5 years more i guess
besides we have too many atar 9 in spares ..
not worth the cost


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## muse

Atar series are a development of WWII German BMW engines -- I wonder if we can use them to build intellectual and technical know how, so that one day a manufacturing unit (Pak Propulsion) may create propulsion units for all fields of endeavor

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## araz

Muse.
Engine building is the most difficult part of the plane and even China is struggling. The turbine blades are the things that make or break an engine and we neither have the metallurgical knowhow nor the research funds to go into research. For the .oment it isexpedient to tow along with china and establish our rebuilding facilities. Next in line would be licence manufacturing of minor components so the engines become cost effective. The last stage would be licenced manufacuring of full engines.At costant progress we should be there in 15-20yrs and a couple of billion dollars. The benfit to our industry would be immense.
Araz

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## muse

Yes, but the tech part is not the difficult part at all - it's the finance part -- and for that we have to move away from this all govt approach - not only is it inefficient, but we are exceptionally poor at it. The other major challenge is that of mindset, in my experience, Pakistanis admire, and I mean deeply admire the know how and capability of US defense giants - we should emulate and refine that set up for our purposes --- I wish we could come up with a proposal that at the heart of which is to make black money white, with the proviso that the funds are parked in public-private defense manufacturing units (with no govt management and minority number of board chairs) producing not only reasonable profits but also serving as a priming pump for the industrialization of Pakistani manufacturing.


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## araz

muse said:


> Yes, but the tech part is not the difficult part at all - it's the finance part -- and for that we have to move away from this all govt approach - not only is it inefficient, but we are exceptionally poor at it. The other major challenge is that of mindset, in my experience, Pakistanis admire, and I mean deeply admire the know how and capability of US defense giants - we should emulate and refine that set up for our purposes --- I wish we could come up with a proposal that at the heart of which is to make black money white, with the proviso that the funds are parked in public-private defense manufacturing units (with no govt management and minority number of board chairs) producing not only reasonable profits but also serving as a priming pump for the industrialization of Pakistani manufacturing.



Please elaborate who in their right mind would develop an infrastructure building a produce with limited use by one vendor where you may or maynot get the deal even after spending billions of $. You would be nuts to do so. You really need to think this one out carefully . on balance once you have established infrastructure including the steel and composite materials building base which is a matter where even developed countries like Japan and Korea struggle, then you can think of private enterprises building a support industry but not in the state our infrastructure is.
Araz


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## muse

araz said:


> who in their right mind would develop an infrastructure building *a produce with limited use by one vendor where you may or maynot get the deal *even after spending billions of $. You would be nuts to do so. You really need to think this one out carefully . on balance once you have established infrastructure including the steel and composite materials building base which is a matter where even developed countries like Japan and Korea struggle, then you can think of private enterprises building a support industry but not in the state our infrastructure is.Araz



I think you may have misunderstood - the product already has a buyer it's the armed forces, to start with. I appreciate that you like to be through, but it seems to me that you may have misunderstood. Pak Propulsion (proposed entity) would manufacture propulsion units for the Air Force, Army and Navy -- obviously it will not start out manufacturing entirely new designed and manufactured from scratch units, but rather propulsion units the armed forces are using at present


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## Gentelman

Bamboo Castle said:


> What did you mean by that? I have never heard of a Chinese version of RD-93... Just can't make things up my friend...
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, and you are absolutely correct... Stop investing on the old pieces of Craps and start investing those funds in the jf-17 and make it more capable to compete against the much advanced 4th gen fighters....



WS-13A is equvilant or better than RD-33
awwww not again I am tired of telling people that we are discussing capabilities of PAF Mairages upgraded in 1990s-2005/6 era PAF is not further upgrading them or investing on them
Rose 4 upgrade was under consideration but this plan was stopped and rejected in 2009
Its airframe can't be better any farther thats why PAF is doing so much hardwork on JFT to make it mature enough to fit for night fighting & nuclear delivery role

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## muse

Gentelman said:


> I am tired of telling people that we are discussing capabilities of PAF Mairages upgraded in 1990s-2005/6 era&#8230;&#8230; :



Yes, that's good - How many squadrons of JFT till now? What do think it means that work appears to have slowed down considerably and the Finance minister has to be seen publicly promising more funds for PAF?

I certainly don't like the idea of keeping ships that may not be airwrthy and risking lives of PAF pilots, but it seems to me that we are in a bind


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## araz

muse said:


> I think you may have misunderstood - the product already has a buyer it's the armed forces, to start with. I appreciate that you like to be through, but it seems to me that you may have misunderstood. Pak Propulsion (proposed entity) would manufacture propulsion units for the Air Force, Army and Navy -- obviously it will not start out manufacturing entirely new designed and manufactured from scratch units, but rather propulsion units the armed forces are using at present



You need to characterize and define these propulsion units .In support of my argument how many providers there are for UAVs and how many have done business with the forces.When you talk of propulsion units you have to understand the various typesof planeswhich will be operated by the forces and their individual requirements. Then there is the usual "difficulties in getting through the door". Then this unit will be evaluated and if found deficient rejected or referred back for improvements. Do you realize what the costs i volved and the times involved are? A rough guesstimate of 15-20 yrs and 10-15 billion $would probably be just about enough. So tell me as a businessman would you like to invest? Theirin lies the problem of private ventures and the reason why most of these enterprises are in US or the west. Rest assured no one including the chinese are going to handover the secrets of turbine blade manufacturing.
Araz


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## muse

araz said:


> You need to characterize and define these propulsion units .*In support of my argument how many providers there are for UAVs and how many have done business with the forces.*When you talk of propulsion units you have to understand the various typesof planeswhich will be operated by the forces and their individual requirements



I take it you mean in Pakistan? to the best of my knowledge there are at least 4 - and I don't believe any of these have done any business with the armed forces - which I think speaks volumes about the mindset of the Pakistani armed forces.

Lets see, at least 500 engines for the JFT - Army employs some 3000 tanks, and many more thousand trucks, Propulsion for Pakistani Navy and naval production - In your opinion, these are not enough to justfy such a capability?


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## Bamboo Castle

Gentelman said:


> WS-13A is equvilant or better than RD-33
> awwww not again I am tired of telling people that we are discussing capabilities of PAF Mairages upgraded in 1990s-2005/6 era PAF is not further upgrading them or investing on them
> Rose 4 upgrade was under consideration but this plan was stopped and rejected in 2009
> Its airframe can't be better any farther thats why PAF is doing so much hardwork on JFT to make it mature enough to fit for night fighting & nuclear delivery role



Please don't get me wrong, but, Mirage upgrade can be very fruitful for your politicians pocket. I've seen this it in BD. BAF bought 16 (stop-gap as they say, though, I wonder which gap they were filling) F-7BGI (based on 1960 designed Mig-21F13) which derives from the latest variant of Chengdu J-7G. They bought these when the country needed at least 2 squadrons (32-36) of Mig-29SMT or Su-30MK. Wasting the taxpayers money they have gone for F-7BGI which by the way, can not compete against any 4th generation fighter even after heavy upgrades (same goes with F-7PG, Mirage-3/5).

So, comes the question: Why? BAF bought those, well to make the politicians reach. I believe, same is in your case as well. To get even more reach they might do the Rose4 as well.


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## araz

muse said:


> I take it you mean in Pakistan? to the best of my knowledge there are at least 4 - and I don't believe any of these have done any business with the armed forces - which I think speaks volumes about the mindset of the Pakistani armed forces.
> 
> Lets see, at least 500 engines for the JFT - Army employs some 3000 tanks, and many more thousand trucks, Propulsion for Pakistani Navy and naval production - In your opinion, these are not enough to justfy such a capability?


You are still not getting my point. You cant gather apples and oranges together. Ajet engine is a totally different ball Game as compared to a sessna engine or a tank engine or the turbine for a Ship.I dont think tank engines od truck enfines are that huge a problem and we can safely negotiate eith Ukraine to build a powerplant which can then be the base of MRAPSandAPCs. Ship turbines again you will never need enough to justify building them in house. That leaves us with JFT engines. You are really trying to crack a wallnut on a monkeys head here if you think anyone will even look at your face much less talk to you about building a turbofan engine . This is cutting edge tech andyou will need to work out your own solution.It is not without reason that the chinese are struggling here . the turbine is the engine core and without an engine core there is no engine. Even before you start talking you need to have at least a couple of specialized steel manufacturing plant each of which will probably set you back 5-10billion $.So muse saheb at the moment you are not going to engage any businessman in your venture.
Araz

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## SQ8

araz said:


> you are not going to engage any businessman in your venture.
> Araz



Both the Net Present Value and the IRR of this investment dont look good.


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## araz

Oscar.
Thankyou for your support kind Sir.
Araz


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## araz

Oscar.
Thankyou for your support kind Sir.
Araz


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## Gentelman

Bamboo Castle said:


> Please don't get me wrong, but, Mirage upgrade can be very fruitful for your politicians pocket. I've seen this it in BD. BAF bought 16 (stop-gap as they say, though, I wonder which gap they were filling) F-7BGI (based on 1960 designed Mig-21F13) which derives from the latest variant of Chengdu J-7G. They bought these when the country needed at least 2 squadrons (32-36) of Mig-29SMT or Su-30MK. Wasting the taxpayers money they have gone for F-7BGI which by the way, can not compete against any 4th generation fighter even after heavy upgrades (same goes with F-7PG, Mirage-3/5).
> 
> So, comes the question: Why? BAF bought those, well to make the politicians reach. I believe, same is in your case as well. To get even more reach they might do the Rose4 as well.



its upgrades are done at home with all facilities at home so very little chances of politicians having commission
but nothing is impossible
well btw its uogrades and PAF mairage program was past


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## Nishan_101

I am sure that now PAC is interested in producing the Block-IIs with its dual seat to replace about 150 Mirages from the fleet in coming 5-6 years. I am sure that in current scenario PAF might be looking in to 300+ JF-17 aircraft along with 150-200 J-31(after 2020 to replace F-16s and adding capabilities).

I am sounding too much optimistic but there are good signs of economy in coming time too.


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## Jungibaaz

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that now PAC is interested in producing the Block-IIs with its dual seat to replace about 150 Mirages from the fleet in coming 5-6 years. I am sure that in current scenario PAF might be looking in to 300+ JF-17 aircraft along with 150-200 J-31(after 2020 to replace F-16s and adding capabilities).
> 
> I am sounding too much optimistic but there are good signs of economy in coming time too.



Some of it is very optimistic and a bit iffy. 

300+ JF-17 is a bit overkill, if we can get it above 200 that would be quite something. Can you imagine? 200 BVR capable aircraft, sanction free, spares, weapons + integration and any upgrades we need.

J-31, lets not jump the gun. First it's got to fly, then PAF has got get the funds, these next gen fighters are not cheap from any aspect, sky high flyaway costs and sky high maintenance costs. Also, nothing official from PAF regarding this matter. So leave it be for now.

And replacing F-16's after 2020? F-16's aren't going anywhere anytime soon. 
They'll fly beyond 2030 me thinks.


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## Nishan_101

I agree with you but not 100%, we are hoping some better results.


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## Bamboo Castle

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that now PAC is interested in producing the Block-IIs with its dual seat to replace about 150 Mirages from the fleet in coming 5-6 years. I am sure that in current scenario PAF might be looking in to 300+ JF-17 aircraft along with 150-200 J-31(after 2020 to replace F-16s and adding capabilities).
> 
> I am sounding too much optimistic but there are good signs of economy in coming time too.



Wait a second,, did you say 300+ JF-17 and 200 J-31.... Lets consider the price of the 500 AC only, and still we are looking at a $15 bl budget. You will need another $5 bl to create the environment for those 500 AC. You also have to consider the operating cost and the weapons and ammunition... 

At least you are talking about a $20bl procurement.. You have that... do you... I guess no.. otherwise you would not think of buying all those 2nd hand junks in you air force...


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## DANGER-ZONE

Donatello said:


> Atar 9 series is a turbojet.
> 
> RD-33/93 series is a turbo fan.
> 
> 
> Plus RD93 offers more thrust in after burning mode.





Donatello said:


> For starters, Atar 9C is about 400kgs heavier than the RD 33, not to mention the internal plumbing regarding the two different engine designs.
> 
> Why would you put a turbojet, that is heavier and uses more fuel providing less thrust, when you can have a more robust RD33/93?



Mirage's Atar engine can be replaced with RD-33 engines with a little modification in aircraft and in engine. South Africans did it with their Cheetahs and Mirage F-1 .... 

*Super Cheetah:*






















*Super Mirage F1: *





















Bayou Renaissance Man: Weekend Wings #41: South Africa's "Franken-Mirages", Part 3 of 3

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## araz

Gentelman said:


> its upgrades are done at home with all facilities at home so very little chances of politicians having commission
> but nothing is impossible
> well btw its uogrades and PAF mairage program was past


Does not stop OTHER hands getting their fingers in the pie. it is noyt only politicians who make money out of defence related deals. There are people who are specifically cultivated to advance foreign interests and secure deals for foreign vendors.
Araz


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## araz

Oscar .
Firstly would you please delete my duplicate post on the last page as i cant seem to do so. 
The M3/5 upgrade was thought out to bide our time in the difficult 90s. We lost out on the F16 front and were Zardaried out of the M2K deal. Later on the French did not want to play ball with us on M2Ks So we had no where to goand hence the upgrade. The airframes are mostly old and additional expenditure of changin engines is not worth while. As soon as suitable replacements are available they will be side lined. But in True PAF style they will be squeezed out of their last ounce of life before we do send them to the aeronautical graveyard.
Araz


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## SQ8

araz said:


> squeezed out of their last ounce of life before we do send them to the aeronautical graveyard.
> Araz



Considering that the PAF phased out the F-86 that it inducted in 1956 around 1983.. and that the last B-57 was phased out in 88. 
The mirages should probably be gone in 30 as well. However, they've been around since 69-70..and it is about 45 years of flying that type.

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## TaimiKhan

Oscar said:


> Considering that the PAF phased out the F-86 that it inducted in 1956 around 1983.. and that the last B-57 was phased out in 88.
> The mirages should probably be gone in 30 as well. However, they've been around since 69-70..and it is about 45 years of flying that type.



From the mouth of the guy driving one of these ROSE upgraded planes, the timeline for these aircrafts to retire is 2018-20 window due to the delays in JF-17s induction, otherwise it was 2014-15 time frame.

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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> to the delays in JF-17s induction,



Interesting...

So our suspicions were true.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

When i was a kid... i loved the Mirage design more than the f-16s....used to buy Mirage V models n posters... cared less abt its capabilities...

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## ziaulislam

Bamboo Castle said:


> Please don't get me wrong, but, Mirage upgrade can be very fruitful for your politicians pocket. I've seen this it in BD. BAF bought 16 (stop-gap as they say, though, I wonder which gap they were filling) F-7BGI (based on 1960 designed Mig-21F13) which derives from the latest variant of Chengdu J-7G. They bought these when the country needed at least 2 squadrons (32-36) of Mig-29SMT or Su-30MK. Wasting the taxpayers money they have gone for F-7BGI which by the way, can not compete against any 4th generation fighter even after heavy upgrades (same goes with F-7PG, Mirage-3/5).
> 
> So, comes the question: Why? BAF bought those, well to make the politicians reach. I believe, same is in your case as well. To get even more reach they might do the Rose4 as well.


PAF were very familiar with mirages plus it costed only 120 million..thats very cheap..paf got alot of aircrafts and spares for very low cost ..i am pretty sure PAF had jf-17 in mind back in late 90s and the rose was considered as a stop gap till 2015
it made PAF cpable of night strike precison strike and the controversial BVR capablity plus helped PAF to maintain its number. lastly PAF had no other option at that time

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## Abu Zolfiqar

the BEGINNING of the phase-out was to have started by 2015.

it will likely be extended another 5-10 years after that date

the PAC at this point can take them apart and assemble them with their eyes closed.....a near written-off one was brought back to life; hardly used Lebanese Mirages were brough back to full life and sold in 1999 or 2000 i think. Where there's will there's a way. But everything has a lifespan and the lifespan of these aircrafts is near the end.


and yes - they've served PAF dutifully and I know it'll be a huge pride of my childhood. Saw them a couple times during a rare visit to Karachiville

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## muse

araz said:


> You are still not getting my point. .So muse saheb at the moment you are not going to engage any businessman in your venture.Araz




Sir I take your point and would highlight that in Pakistan of a couple of years ago and even today, the notion of a privately financed and built hydro electric project would be nonsensical -- and yet

Nawaz inaugurates first private hydro power plant in Pakistan - DAWN.COM


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## SQ8

muse said:


> Sir I take your point and would highlight that in Pakistan of a couple of years ago and even today, the notion of a privately financed and built hydro electric project would be nonsensical -- and yet
> 
> Nawaz inaugurates first private hydro power plant in Pakistan - DAWN.COM



Its not the notion of the private venture but the investment itself. The PAF knows the ATAR quite well and has actually generated some parts for it on its own. The same way it was able to come up with a few modifications to the PW F100 as well. However, compared to the F-100.. the ATAR series are a very outdated design.. just as you would not recommend learning to make a carburetor equipped car as compared to a fuel injection one. 
Moreover, to convince a private investor that they should invest millions of dollars into the line means you give them an acceptable rate of return. Something that may not be guaranteed at all with such a risky venture.

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## TaimiKhan

nuclearpak said:


> Interesting...
> 
> So our suspicions were true.



I am talking about the delay during the initial days of the program, as the test and evaluation time frame took more time, the induction of JF-17 was delayed by more then 2-3 years. That is when the extension of the Mirages was taken. 

ROSE mirages would be the last ones to go, may be even after the F-7Ps are decommissioned.

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## Irfan Baloch

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and yes - they've served PAF dutifully and I know it'll be a huge pride of my childhood. Saw them a couple times during a rare visit to Karachiville



Remember one leading the flight past on 23 March 81 in Rawalpindi race course ground in the time of Gen Zia. saw Gen Zia in person as he arrived in his buggy . back then mirages were our top fighters. it did a high speed pass and then performed a vertical climb and spin .. was very spectacular for me when I sued to be a student of Sir Syed School.

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## v9s

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> When i was a kid... i loved the Mirage design more than the f-16s....used to buy Mirage V models n posters... cared less abt its capabilities...



Same here bro. The mirage series of fighters are one of the most beautiful aircrafts ever.


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## Argus Panoptes

v9s said:


> Same here bro. The mirage series of fighters are one of the most beautiful aircrafts ever.



Form follows function. These machines are designed for the purposes of war, and esthetics should not matter at all.


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## Jango

Argus Panoptes said:


> Form follows function. These machines are designed for the purposes of war, and esthetics should not matter at all.



This statement alone shows you don't know jack about aviation!

J/k.

You have no idea how much pilots 'adore' their aircraft by the looks.

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## Argus Panoptes

nuclearpak said:


> This statement alone shows you don't know jack about aviation!
> 
> J/k.
> 
> You have no idea how much pilots 'adore' their aircraft by the looks.



There much that I don't know jack about Sir, so that is why I am still learning as a student.

Yes, pilot's affections for their aircraft are well known, but those emotions have no role to play in determining service life of aircraft. Need and money make the decisions.


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## Irfan Baloch

Argus Panoptes said:


> There much that I don't know jack about Sir, so that is why I am still learning as a student.
> 
> Yes, pilot's affections for their aircraft are well known, but those emotions have no role to play in determining service life of aircraft. Need and money make the decisions.



have you lent your account to someone? you used to talk sense 
now it seems Yousaf Raza Gillani is trying to discuss the philosophy of making Lassi

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## Argus Panoptes

Irfan Baloch said:


> have you lent your account to someone? you used to talk sense
> now it seems Yousaf Raza Gillani is trying to discuss the philosophy of making Lassi



What part of my post does not meet your standards Sir?

Service life of aircraft is always decided by the need that is fulfilled, and at what cost. Affections of the pilot for their aircraft and esthetics in the eyes of those who are fans have nothing to do with the decision to keep a type in service.

I would have been offended at the comparison to Mr. Gilani, but I do not know just how good is the lassi that he makes. Perhaps you do and it is a secret compliment?


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## jamesseo89

I think PAF has about 50 JF-17s and may be lesser numbers in terms of F-7s.


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## Nishan_101

Mirage being modified with some rare under fuselage Hard points as well:







Can you explain it and does anyone share some more pictures too.

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## Kompromat

Whats the big deal about the under fuselage hardpoint?- it already existed.

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## Dillinger

Aeronaut said:


> Whats the big deal about the under fuselage hardpoint?- it already existed.



Got any details on the avionics package running on these? The French radars aren't earth shattering, I mean they are good but not unique but you have to love the MDPU and SPECTRA. Specially liked the Mirage-2000s they kitted out for the UAE with the IMEWS.


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## Kompromat

Dillinger said:


> Got any details on the avionics package running on these? The French radars aren't earth shattering, I mean they are good but not unique but you have to love the MDPU and SPECTRA. Specially liked the Mirage-2000s they kitted out for the UAE with the IMEWS.



Plenty of details are available in "PAF Mirage III/V capabilities" thread


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## Dillinger

Aeronaut said:


> Plenty of details are available in "PAF Mirage III/V capabilities" thread



Link de do yaara, dhoodna to na pade.


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## Kompromat

Dillinger said:


> Link de do yaara, dhoodna to na pade.



Talk about indolence. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a.html

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## Windjammer

The centreline pylon was plumbed to accommodate, Bombs, missiles, fuel tanks or as in this case, special recce pods.

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## Nishan_101

If Egypt in the 80s has decided to move towards Mirage-2000 like license production or joining the program then it will be great for PAF to get their 80 Mirage-Vs:










I am sure that this would have been worked as a booster for PAF.

I also have a question why didn't PAF reached out Libya in the first place for Mirage and why a decade late???


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## acetophenol

How old are these airframes?


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## dexter

Mirage-IIIEA with A-A refuling probe.

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## nomi007

dexter said:


> Mirage-IIIEA with A-A refuling probe.



who was the 1st pakistani pilot who refuel in the air on mirage III


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## Storm Force

GREAT WAR PLANE in its prime between 1970-1990 

Great service for PAF and tremendous JOB by PAF to BREATH LIFE into a fighter type phased out and deemed obselete even by the likes of LIBYA AUSTRILIA 15 years ago.

They stril look dam sexy even 45 years later.

Would be good IF PAF could keep a couple of speacilists sqds well into this decade 

*will be a very SAD DAY when the mirage finishes SERVICE IN PAF for ever...*


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## Edevelop



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## airomerix

Rumors have it, that our Mirages from No.27 Tactical Strike squadron "Zarrars" surpass Block 15s when it comes to strike capability. And that's pretty much possible considering PAF's long standing commitment with the ROSE programme. Miss the canards though.

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## Tacticool

What is the range of t-darter?


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## airomerix

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> What is the range of t-darter?



60km. Estimated.


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## Inception-06

according to pakdef.com our Brother Forum and Mectron's MAR-1 to be operational in Pakistan next year - IHS Jane's 360


MAR-1 is operational for the Pakistani Mirrage3/5 but whats about the Jf-17 Thunder ?


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## airomerix

Ulla said:


> according to pakdef.com our Brother Forum and Mectron's MAR-1 to be operational in Pakistan next year - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> 
> MAR-1 is operational for the Pakistani Mirrage3/5 but whats about the Jf-17 Thunder ?



It is also operational with JF-17. I witnessed it at IDEAS'12.

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## DANGER-ZONE

airomerix said:


> It is also operational with JF-17. I witnessed it at IDEAS'12.



Me too but it was dummy and the fact is that integration process is yet to be completed. Even the Mectron - Brazil reported that MAR-1 is operational with PAF Mirage fleet but not with the JF-17, it is in being integrated, six months back or so.


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## Bratva

airomerix said:


> It is also operational with JF-17. I witnessed it at IDEAS'12.



It was training round. Live rounds will be delivered next year. Integration process is still on going in Brazil


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## DANGER-ZONE

mafiya said:


> It was training round. Live rounds will be delivered next year. Integration process is still on going in Brazil



A little correction, not a training round but a DUMMY missile just for display and i don't think that Pakistan cannot integrate MAR-1 on JF-17 at home. When mirage can be integrated here then why not Thunder ?


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## Bratva

DANGER-ZONE said:


> A little correction, not a training round but a DUMMY missile just for display and i don't think that Pakistan cannot integrate MAR-1 on JF-17 at home. When mirage can be integrated here then why not Thunder ?



As per Janes, Training rounds were delivered in 2012 and PAF is reluctant to integrate MAR-1 on JF-17 

What causes the initial confusion regarding MAR-1 is Janes article in 2011 where JF-17 deputy project director claimed MAR-1 is integrated on to JF-17 in house. We all thought MAR-1 delivered to PAF. But as per Janes article it was training rounds and according to Mecatron official, PAF pushing integration on mirages rather than on JF-17.


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## araz

airomerix said:


> Rumors have it, that our Mirages from No.27 Tactical Strike squadron "Zarrars" surpass Block 15s when it comes to strike capability. And that's pretty much possible considering PAF's long standing commitment with the ROSE programme. Miss the canards though.



Not surprising if these are the ROSE upgraded platforms. However they will not be able to match the MLUed F16s. On a side note Taiwan is upgrading its Bl15s with the engine of the Bl52s as well as all the goodies. I wonder given that it is an 8 billion $ project what advantage do they really get over our own MLued platforms.
Araz


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## DANGER-ZONE

mafiya said:


> As per Janes, Training rounds were delivered in 2012 and PAF is reluctant to integrate MAR-1 on JF-17
> 
> What causes the initial confusion regarding MAR-1 is Janes article in 2011 where JF-17 deputy project director claimed MAR-1 is integrated on to JF-17 in house. We all thought MAR-1 delivered to PAF. But as per Janes article it was training rounds and according to Mecatron official, PAF pushing integration on mirages rather than on JF-17.



I was talking about the missile shown at IDEAS'12 was a DUMMY rather than a Training round.


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## Bratva

DANGER-ZONE said:


> I was talking about the missile shown at IDEAS'12 was a DUMMY rather than a Training round.



Wanna bet it was a training round?


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## Gessler

Exactly how many Mirage-III and how many Mirage-V are in service with
PAF right now?

Please anyone with the info tell me the numbers seperately, or atleast tell me if I can
find the info in previous pages in this thread.

I 'm asking because quite a lot of these planes have crashed or are permanent write-offs in
recent times. So the numbers are varying.


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## SQ8

Gessler said:


> Exactly how many Mirage-III and how many Mirage-V are in service with
> PAF right now?
> 
> Please anyone with the info tell me the numbers seperately, or atleast tell me if I can
> find the info in previous pages in this thread.
> 
> I 'm asking because quite a lot of these planes have crashed or are permanent write-offs in
> recent times. So the numbers are varying.

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## Imran Khan

Gessler said:


> Exactly how many Mirage-III and how many Mirage-V are in service with
> PAF right now?
> 
> Please anyone with the info tell me the numbers seperately, or atleast tell me if I can
> find the info in previous pages in this thread.
> 
> I 'm asking because quite a lot of these planes have crashed or are permanent write-offs in
> recent times. So the numbers are varying.



exactly numbers can't be fount on internet dear but here we have an issue damn mirages were enter in service again and again after crashes and ect . last batch entered from libya as 50 mirages were brand new with few flying hours in 2004 and delivered 50 mirages many engines and parts . no body has exact numbers then AHQ .


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## Gessler

Oscar said:


>



Thanks, what website is this?


----------



## SQ8

Gessler said:


> Thanks, what website is this?



Home - Scramble

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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> Home - Scramble



website has records of 24 JF-17..
what does that mean?


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## SQ8

Dreamreaper said:


> website has records of 24 JF-17..
> what does that mean?



It means it only counts those it knows the records of. If it does not know aircraft on the transfer register or those that have a picture.. or those it has official confirmation of.. it does not list them. Its nowhere a 100% accurate but they are good reference.


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## nomi007



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## nomi007

Vintage picture of steel grey Mirage-III

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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


> Vintage picture of steel grey Mirage-III



Not so vintage, its from 90s if am not wrong. 
This is probably one of the Ex-Australian Mirage that Pakistan Acquired in 80s or 90s.


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## FLIR

BUT ITS VINTAGE NOW

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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> Vintage picture of steel grey Mirage-III



i knew i saw that serial somewhere before
its the same aircraft as the one in china right now

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## DANGER-ZONE

razgriz19 said:


> i knew i saw that serial somewhere before
> its the same aircraft as the one in china right now



Woah .... : I never noticed that !

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## Tacticool

Can any one list the detailed list of mirage squadron's age?
i.e.; which squadron has fighters with what age? including ex-airforce life.


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## fatman17

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Can any one list the detailed list of mirage squadron's age?
> i.e.; which squadron has fighters with what age? including ex-airforce life.



difficult excercise


----------



## ejaz007

An article worth reading.

Grande Strategy

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## Yzd Khalifa

Oscar said:


> Home - Scramble



Hi Oscar, 

I haven't seen you for a while. I hope you're doing good. 

I found these bits of info for the RSAF Tornados inventory. If I may ask, how accurate do you think the site is? 

Thanks


----------



## SQ8

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Hi Oscar,
> 
> I haven't seen you for a while. I hope you're doing good.
> 
> I found these bits of info for the RSAF Tornados inventory. If I may ask, how accurate do you think the site is?
> 
> Thanks



They are quite accurate , but being dependant on a mix of official and unofficial reports may be off by one or two aircraft.

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## Yzd Khalifa

Oscar said:


> They are quite accurate , but being dependant on a mix of official and unofficial reports may be off by one or two aircraft.



Thanks a bunch 


What would the replacement to PAF Mirages will be my friend?


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## MZUBAIR

razgriz19 said:


> i knew i saw that serial somewhere before
> its the same aircraft as the one in china right now



Its the same, I guess

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## SQ8

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Thanks a bunch
> 
> 
> What would the replacement to PAF Mirages will be my friend?



JF-17 is the replacement.


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## Raje amar

I have seen its pic always with the drop tank. What's the combat range with and without those drop tank?
Can they target locations deep inside enemy territory?


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## Tacticool

fatman17 said:


> difficult excercise



A General saying something to be difficult?


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## SQ8

Raje amar said:


> I have seen its pic always with the drop tank. What's the combat range with and without those drop tank?
> Can they target locations deep inside enemy territory?



With the tanks they are capable of attacking targets 1200km from their base which is sufficient for deep strike operations.

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## Tacticool

MZUBAIR said:


> Its the same, I guess


Does 90 on the vertical stabilizer mean it was built in 90 or was arrived in Pakistan at 90?



MZUBAIR said:


> Its the same, I guess


Does 90 on the vertical stabilizer mean it was built in 90 or was arrived in Pakistan at 90?


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## Imran Khan

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Does 90 on the vertical stabilizer mean it was built in 90 or was arrived in Pakistan at 90?
> 
> 
> Does 90 on the vertical stabilizer mean it was built in 90 or was arrived in Pakistan at 90?



The Mirage serial numberof PAF are as follows: e.g 70-411 (70 is the fiscal year ordered)

100 series - Original Mirage IIIEP's 1969

200 series - Mirage IIIRP's (Ordered in 2 batches, 3 in 1968 & 10 in mid seventies.)

300 series - Mirage IIID's & Mirage VD's (3 in 1968, 3 in 1970 & 2 in 1979)

400 series - Mirage V's (28 in 1970 & 32 in 1979)

500 series - Ex Aussie Mirage IIIO's (1990)

700 series - Ex French AF Mirage VEF (ordered in 1996, upgraded by SAGEM with wide angled HUD & FLIR system)

800 series - EX Aussie Mirage IIID's

900 series - ex Libyans and Lebanese mirages

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## Tacticool

Imran Khan said:


> The Mirage serial numberof PAF are as follows: e.g 70-411 (70 is the fiscal year ordered)
> 
> 100 series - Original Mirage IIIEP's 1969
> 
> 200 series - Mirage IIIRP's (Ordered in 2 batches, 3 in 1968 & 10 in mid seventies.)
> 
> 300 series - Mirage IIID's & Mirage VD's (3 in 1968, 3 in 1970 & 2 in 1979)
> 
> 400 series - Mirage V's (28 in 1970 & 32 in 1979)
> 
> 500 series - Ex Aussie Mirage IIIO's (1990)
> 
> 700 series - Ex French AF Mirage VEF (ordered in 1996, upgraded by SAGEM with wide angled HUD & FLIR system)
> 
> 800 series - EX Aussie Mirage IIID's
> 
> 900 series - ex Libyans and Lebanese mirages



means 100 series is due for replacement by 3rd squadron of jft


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> With the tanks they are capable of attacking targets 1200km from their base which is sufficient for deep strike operations.



Is this the radius for the Mirage III/V?

Because 1200 KM is a lot of distance. Mirage always had a short range.


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Is this the radius for the Mirage III/V?
> 
> Because 1200 KM is a lot of distance. Mirage always had a short range.



Range for Mirage III on a hi-lo-hi mission.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Range for Mirage III on a hi-lo-hi mission.



So 1200km it can go out and return or 600km each way?


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> So 1200km it can go out and return or 600km each way?



It can go out 1200km but is probably closer to a 1000km realistically. This means its carrying two large fuel tanks, two bombs on the center line station plus two AAM at the outermost pylons.

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> It can go out 1200km but is probably closer to a 1000km realistically. This means its carrying two large fuel tanks, two bombs on the center line station plus two AAM at the outermost pylons.



Okay, i always thought the Mirage combat radius (one way ) was 600km or less. Since the Argentines couldn't do justice to this beauty in the Falklands war.


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## Nishan_101

But the days of Mirages are over and its up to PAF when they will be able to take money out from Govt. pockets to fill the fleet with JF-17s and J-31s. Although I am 100 sure that if PAC had tried to invest $50 Millions more in JF-17 and China too then we can also have improved it and introduced a dual seat version of it too; like:
Composite
RD-93B 98KN
Retractable In Flight Refueling

All these 3 features would have helped PAF a lot and also if all of this would have increased its cost to $21 Million per piece then still its of not much burden for Govt. Like for 100 JF-17s it will cost around: $2.1 Billion for 5 years time and for 50 Dual Seat dedicated for CCS 50 of them will cost $1.05 Billions

So for the first block of JF-17 the cost of procurement would be $3.15 Billions in 5 years time. Which is far more cheaper as it would have given jobs in public and private sector too...


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Okay, i always thought the Mirage combat radius (one way ) was 600km or less. Since the Argentines couldn't do justice to this beauty in the Falklands war.



They actually did quite well. But they were fairly outgunned and at the end of their legs. They did not have any missile capable of acting in the same capacity as the Aim-9L on the Harriers and whatever missiles they received they got later. Even then they actually scored a lot of hits on British ships but due to incorrect fuses many of these hits never detonated.

Average distances that the Argentinians had to fly were around 700 km or more.
Had the British not had the Aim-9L , things might have been different.

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## arslanbilwani

WoW its awsome


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## Tacticool

Can Pakistani mirages be upgraded to mirage 2000 standards?
Or at least fly by wire?


----------



## Informant

Nishan_101 said:


> But the days of Mirages are over and its up to PAF when they will be able to take money out from Govt. pockets to fill the fleet with JF-17s and J-31s. Although I am 100 sure that if PAC had tried to invest $50 Millions more in JF-17 and China too then we can also have improved it and introduced a dual seat version of it too; like:
> Composite
> RD-93B 98KN
> Retractable In Flight Refueling
> 
> All these 3 features would have helped PAF a lot and also if all of this would have increased its cost to $21 Million per piece then still its of not much burden for Govt. Like for 100 JF-17s it will cost around: $2.1 Billion for 5 years time and for 50 Dual Seat dedicated for CCS 50 of them will cost $1.05 Billions
> 
> So for the first block of JF-17 the cost of procurement would be $3.15 Billions in 5 years time. Which is far more cheaper as it would have given jobs in public and private sector too...



Maulvi where are you getting these numbers from?


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## acetophenol

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Can Pakistani mirages be upgraded to mirage 2000 standards?
> Or at least fly by wire?



will the airframes hold it? I mean,we are upgrading our Mirage 2000s,your Mirage 3/4s must be too old then.[not undermining their capability]


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## SQ8

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Can Pakistani mirages be upgraded to mirage 2000 standards?
> Or at least fly by wire?





acetophenol said:


> will the airframes hold it? I mean,we are upgrading our Mirage 2000s,your Mirage 3/4s must be too old then.[not undermining their capability]



By standards if you mean fly-by-wire then yes. The Mirage-III served as a test-bed for M2K fly by wire systems.
But as such it is limited by its airframe(both in Age and design).

See the Atlas Cheetah C as an example to what the mirage III can be upgraded to.


----------



## acetophenol

Oscar said:


> By standards if you mean fly-by-wire then yes. The Mirage-III served as a test-bed for M2K fly by wire systems.
> But as such it is limited by its airframe(both in Age and design).
> 
> See the Atlas Cheetah C as an example to what the mirage III can be upgraded to.



Airframe age and design is the most important limiting factor in most upgrades. A good example will be IAF Jaguars and MiG 27s. Both the aircrafts were inducted around the same time,did the same job and Jags are ready as hell for a all new upgrade including FBW and new engines,thanks to the healthy airframe ,where as MiG 27s have been started to be left mothballed.


----------



## Donatello

acetophenol said:


> will the airframes hold it? I mean,we are upgrading our Mirage 2000s,your Mirage 3/4s must be too old then.[not undermining their capability]



Actually the ROSE Mirage have brought the Mirage III/V 'close' to Mirage 2000 in terms of Avionics only. There are subtle structural changes in Mirage 2000 series that cannot be done on Mirage III/V due to old air frames and cost. Then there is the issue of the engines.

Mirage III/V use the SNECMA Atar series which is a noisy, in-efficient turbojet. Mirage 2000 series uses the new M 53.

BTW, Mirage 4 (should be written IV) is a double engine double seater attack aircraft. Very different from the Mirage III/V and 2000 series.


----------



## SQ8

acetophenol said:


> Airframe age and design is the most important limiting factor in most upgrades. A good example will be IAF Jaguars and MiG 27s. Both the aircrafts were inducted around the same time,did the same job and Jags are ready as hell for a all new upgrade including FBW and new engines,thanks to the healthy airframe ,where as MiG 27s have been started to be left mothballed.



Where do the CBU-105s go then? To the Jags or to the MKIs?


----------



## acetophenol

Oscar said:


> Where do the CBU-105s go then? To the Jags or to the MKIs?



Both the Jags and MKIs. The Jags will be soon our only dedicated strike aircraft.


----------



## acetophenol

Donatello said:


> Actually the ROSE Mirage have brought the Mirage III/V 'close' to Mirage 2000 in terms of Avionics only. There are subtle structural changes in Mirage 2000 series that cannot be done on Mirage III/V due to old air frames and cost. Then there is the issue of the engines.
> 
> Mirage III/V use the SNECMA Atar series which is a noisy, in-efficient turbojet. Mirage 2000 series uses the new M 53.
> 
> BTW, Mirage 4 (should be written IV) is a double engine double seater attack aircraft. Very different from the Mirage III/V and 2000 series.



Thanks for the info!
By the way,Pakistan has invested heavily in its Mirage facilities I guess,with having your own overhaul facilities.If I am not wrong, other than Thunders,Mirage is the only aircraft with overhaul facilities in Pakistan. Don't you think it will be much better to continue using the Mirage series,like buying some airframes?


----------



## Donatello

acetophenol said:


> Thanks for the info!
> By the way,Pakistan has invested heavily in its Mirage facilities I guess,with having your own overhaul facilities.If I am not wrong, other than Thunders,Mirage is the only aircraft with overhaul facilities in Pakistan. Don't you think it will be much better to continue using the Mirage series,like buying some airframes?



Haha, all the airframes that could be bought, were bought by Pakistan.

Ex French, Australian, Libyan and Spanish ones. But they are all 40 years old. JF-17 thunder offers improved performance in all aspects, so it makes no sense to keep Mirage any longer. PAF invested in local overhauling of Mirage since Mirage formed the backbone and served for over 40 years. Time to let that legacy go. Like i said in the earlier post, the SNECMA Atar engine is prone to problems as well, based on a WW II design, flying in the 21st century. When you have better alternatives, you need to adapt and change.

BTW F-7 and F-7PGs also have overhaul and rebuild factories in Pakistan, along with the F-6 (Mig 19) that preceded them. F-16s also have a sizeable overhaul facilities in Pakistan.

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## Viking 63

Not to forget that Mirages are DELTA wings !! these aircraft are difficult to handle at low altitudes !! case in point are Falksland island war in 1982 !! The sluggish harriers were beaten badly at high altitude s against Mirages ,, but at lower levels they got their *** kicked by the british pilots !!! I think its high time let this aircarft go !!


----------



## MastanKhan

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Can Pakistani mirages be upgraded to mirage 2000 standards?
> Or at least fly by wire?



Hi,

Welcome to the board----. Can a toyota corolla be made into a toyota cressida---if your answer is no and you understand the reasons behind it---then you can understand why the mirage 3/5 cannot be switched to mirage 2000's.



Viking 63 said:


> Not to forget that Mirages are DELTA wings !! these aircraft are difficult to handle at low altitudes !! case in point are Falksland island war in 1982 !! The sluggish harriers were beaten badly at high altitude s against Mirages ,, but at lower levels they got their *** kicked by the british pilots !!! I think its high time let this aircarft go !!



Hi,

It was in the similar manner the F86 sabre was a great high altitude fighter interceptor and the gnat a low altitude.

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## acetophenol

Donatello said:


> Haha, all the airframes that could be bought, were bought by Pakistan.
> 
> Ex French, Australian, Libyan and Spanish ones. But they are all 40 years old. JF-17 thunder offers improved performance in all aspects, so it makes no sense to keep Mirage any longer. PAF invested in local overhauling of Mirage since Mirage formed the backbone and served for over 40 years. Time to let that legacy go. Like i said in the earlier post, the SNECMA Atar engine is prone to problems as well, based on a WW II design, flying in the 21st century. When you have better alternatives, you need to adapt and change.
> 
> BTW F-7 and F-7PGs also have overhaul and rebuild factories in Pakistan, along with the F-6 (Mig 19) that preceded them. F-16s also have a sizeable overhaul facilities in Pakistan.




I was infact thinking about the possibility of Pakistan buying some second hand Mirage 2000s.Though as an Indian i don't want Pakistan to buy any of the Mirage 2000s and want IAF to acquire some,Mirage 2000s will be a good option for PAF IMO.


----------



## Donatello

acetophenol said:


> I was infact thinking about the possibility of Pakistan buying some second hand Mirage 2000s.Though as an Indian i don't want Pakistan to buy any of the Mirage 2000s and want IAF to acquire some,Mirage 2000s will be a good option for PAF IMO.



The possibility did come up when there was some talk of PAF seeking to buy the ex-Middle-Eastern airforce Mirage 2000s. But it never materialized due to unknown reasons (at least i don't know the complete story)

Other wise, PAF was looking to buy Mirage 2000s in late 80s and early 90s, but again didn't go for it and set it's eyes on F-16s only and bought retired Mirage III/Vs from France and Australia. But that is a different topic.

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## fatman17

M2K is a complex platfrom which requires higher maintenance than most similar platforms. go ask the Tiwanese. they want to pawn off their mirages and there are no buyers. the armee-del-air has a huge inventory of similar mirages with no takers. Brazil purchased a dozen mirages and now have retired them even after the upgrade.

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## Nishan_101

Informant said:


> Maulvi where are you getting these numbers from?



Why are you saying me: "Maulvi"?

Also I think there are much needed things to be installed in JF-17 even in the first phase but still love to see it in its Block-IIs.


----------



## Nishan_101

I think if JF-17s was made with more potent things in the Block-I version along with its dual seat and production like 100 of each blocks in every 5 years time then we should have replaced the Mirages first and about 100 of them in first 5 years.


----------



## Informant

Nishan_101 said:


> Why are you saying me: "Maulvi"?
> 
> Also I think there are much needed things to be installed in JF-17 even in the first phase but still love to see it in its Block-IIs.



Called you a maulvi at your signature. What you have is wishful thinking. Khair but then again we can have suggestions of varying degrees of possibility.


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## Viking 63

PAF needs to mature its JF-17 programme ! Pakistan is a large and big enough country to have its owm High Tech weapons Industry, including Aviation, when france, sweden and Italy can do it why not Paks !!!

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## untitled

Viking 63 said:


> Not to forget that Mirages are DELTA wings !! these aircraft are difficult to handle at low altitudes !! case in point are Falksland island war in 1982 !! The sluggish harriers were beaten badly at high altitude s against Mirages ,, but at lower levels they got their *** kicked by the british pilots !!! I think its high time let this aircarft go !!



There was only one dog fight between the Mirages and the harriers. Two mirages were hit (one later destroyed by friendly fire at the Port Stanely airfield). After that the Mirage rarely went on escort missions for the bombing runs of the SkyHawks and the Daggers (the Israeli made Mirage Vs). And yes there was the instance of a Dagger firing a Shafrir missile at a Sea Harrier but that was fired out of range.


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## Tacticool

Whenever i read about a dogfight. It states that x-fighter has edge in higher altitude and y has advantage at lower. Can there be a fighter good in both higher and lower equally?


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## HariPrasad

French Planes are always good. Look at the payload of 4000 KG. It is awesome. Many modern day fighter even do not have it. They cause concern to enemies even though they are old. 

This is where they differ from some Junk plane who are simply target practice for enemy plane.


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## notorious_eagle

acetophenol said:


> I was infact thinking about the possibility of Pakistan buying some second hand Mirage 2000s.Though as an Indian i don't want Pakistan to buy any of the Mirage 2000s and want IAF to acquire some,Mirage 2000s will be a good option for PAF IMO.



PAF did look at this option but the cost was simply too high. Besides the acquisition cost, the Mirage 2000 is a ver maintenance oriented aircraft. There is a reason why Taiwan and Greece placed additional orders for the F16's but did not acquire additional Mirage 2000.


----------



## untitled

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Whenever i read about a dogfight. It states that x-fighter has edge in higher altitude and y has advantage at lower. Can there be a fighter good in both higher and lower equally?



Variable geometry was thought of as a solution
Then it brought its own problems







even in the Mirage

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## acetophenol

Donatello said:


> The possibility did come up when there was some talk of PAF seeking to buy the ex-Middle-Eastern airforce Mirage 2000s. But it never materialized due to unknown reasons (at least i don't know the complete story)
> 
> Other wise, PAF was looking to buy Mirage 2000s in late 80s and early 90s, but again didn't go for it and set it's eyes on F-16s only and bought retired Mirage III/Vs from France and Australia. But that is a different topic.





fatman17 said:


> M2K is a complex platfrom which requires *higher maintenance* than most similar platforms. go ask the Tiwanese. they want to pawn off their mirages and there are no buyers. the armee-del-air has a huge inventory of similar mirages with no takers. Brazil purchased a dozen mirages and now have retired them even after the upgrade.





notorious_eagle said:


> PAF did look at this option but the *cost was simply too high*. Besides the acquisition cost, the Mirage 2000 is a ver maintenance oriented aircraft. There is a reason why Taiwan and Greece placed additional orders for the F16's but did not acquire additional Mirage 2000.




I wouldn't agree with the point that Mirage 2000s a was maintenance intensive platform, because these birds have exhibited *excellent serviceability *with the Indian Air Force in numerous occasions,especially during the Kargil war.

However,the *cost of maintenance * could've been high,and may be (not sure) the reason for which IAF didn't go for further orders of this bird.

This is what Dassault says about the cost of operation of its bird,


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## Nishan_101

acetophenol said:


> I wouldn't agree with the point that Mirage 2000s a was maintenance intensive platform, because these birds have exhibited *excellent serviceability *with the Indian Air Force in numerous occasions,especially during the Kargil war.
> 
> However,the *cost of maintenance * could've been high,and may be (not sure) the reason for which IAF didn't go for further orders of this bird.
> 
> This is what Dassault says about the cost of operation of its bird,



PAF/PAC hasn't done right thing in the past like; PAF could have invested they money which was used to gain 50+ A-5C in to Mirage-2000 Program like Airframe and Engine. Also create AMF and Aero Engines facility in 1980 with French help along with Avionics and Radar/Optics one too.

So we would be building Mirage-2000s and about 250 of them in total and also we can gain license production of 100 F-7P and 100 F-7PGs with similarity in terms of Avionics with Mirage-2000s and keep the F-16s in reserve too.

So PAF would gain money from the sales of Mirage-2000s to other countries whether sold from France or PAC; shared money will be gained in returned along with a better experience that can help us in JF-17s especially in terms of avionics.

More over NESCOM, KRL, SUPARCO and PAC avionics division could have joined with France, Italy and Germany on Military and Commercial Electrical and Electronics development with them too which might result that in 10-15 years Pakistan would be doing all the things on its own.


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## Donatello

acetophenol said:


> I wouldn't agree with the point that Mirage 2000s a was maintenance intensive platform, because these birds have exhibited *excellent serviceability *with the Indian Air Force in numerous occasions,especially during the Kargil war.
> 
> However,the *cost of maintenance * could've been high,and may be (not sure) the reason for which IAF didn't go for further orders of this bird.
> 
> This is what Dassault says about the cost of operation of its bird,




So tell me, how much is India paying to Upgrade it's Mirage 2000 per bird? 20 million $ per plane, no?

Pakistan can buy a new aircraft in that amount.

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## acetophenol

Nishan_101 said:


> PAF/PAC hasn't done right thing in the past like; PAF could have invested they money which was used to gain 50+ A-5C in to Mirage-2000 Program like Airframe and Engine. Also create AMF and Aero Engines facility in 1980 with French help along with Avionics and Radar/Optics one too.
> 
> So we would be building Mirage-2000s and about 250 of them in total and also we can gain license production of 100 F-7P and 100 F-7PGs with similarity in terms of Avionics with Mirage-2000s and keep the F-16s in reserve too.
> 
> So PAF would gain money from the sales of Mirage-2000s to other countries whether sold from France or PAC; shared money will be gained in returned along with a better experience that can help us in JF-17s especially in terms of avionics.
> 
> More over NESCOM, KRL, SUPARCO and PAC avionics division could have joined with France, Italy and Germany on Military and Commercial Electrical and Electronics development with them too which might result that in 10-15 years Pakistan would be doing all the things on its own.



I must say that the root cause of the problem was your economy and politics.

And I must say that you are over optimistic some times,just my opinion though.


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## acetophenol

Donatello said:


> So tell me, how much is India paying to Upgrade it's Mirage 2000 per bird? 20 million $ per plane, no?
> 
> Pakistan can buy a new aircraft in that amount.



If we consider the entire costs its around INR 344 Crore for each aircraft.including the setting upgrade facilities at HAL,ToT and other stuffs.

For that money,IAF can also go for a new aircraft,Russians,Americans,Frenchs you name it,any one will be happy to sell us their birds.

But the point is that,we get a bird that is with us,with all the infrastructure,all the expertise armed to teeth with all latest tech ready to serve us another 2 decades.As a cherry on top,we get to master some world class tech and have facilities at home.

Had we gone for a new aircraft,it would be easy to say,but to select and buy a new a/c,train the pilots to the level of expertise that can be achieved only with time,to build the infras etc will take more time and money.


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## nomi007



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## nomi007

with out canopy

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## nomi007

twin seater rare image

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## Nishan_101

If we consider that INSHA ALLAH, PAC will going to produce about 50+ JF-17s Block-II along with the dual seat version of it on yearly basis that will include exports as well and about 100 JF-17s for PAF and 50 dual seat for CCS-PAF.

Then which would be the 100 Fighters it will replace; whether 100 of the Mirages???


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## nomi007

Azm-e-Nau-4

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## DANGER-ZONE

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> _
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> 
> Combat Aircraft Monthly_ Vol 14 No 12 - December 2013
> 
> Pages: 56 - 63

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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


> Azm-e-Nau-4



The best Pic....


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## Nishan_101

Really PAC should be given money in 2008 to produce 100 JF-17 Block-Is and now to produce 100 Block-IIs to replace all of the A-5C, F-7P and F-7PGs which can be easily sold to BDs and other operators and later replace Mirages....


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## Meejee

You beat me to it. I was just about to ask if anyone has read the article.

Anyway, the article is a tribute to PAF Mirages by "Alan Warnes"

By the way, why you did not upload the article "Exercise Shaheen II" from the same magazine (pages 80 & 81). Just curious.

Regards,



Meejee said:


> You beat me to it. I was just about to ask if anyone has read the article.
> 
> Anyway, the article is a tribute to PAF Mirages by "Alan Warnes"
> 
> By the way, why you did not upload the article "Exercise Shaheen II" from the same magazine (pages 80 & 81). Just curious.
> 
> Regards,


 

I was talking about Danger Zone upload


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## Nishan_101

I am with that whether Mirages would gain life for next 5 years or not PAF should go for 100 block-IIs as it had to replace many jets from its fleet not just A-5Cs..


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## Manticore



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

spanish mirages later purchase by paf for spare parts

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## PWFI

Manticore said:


>


thanks alot Sir, a great read and lots of informations!

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## Nishan_101

But I think PAF should concentrate on getting the required money from GoP for 100 JF-17s Block-II, 50 K-8 Local production and also 70 Super Mushak that can be produced in coming 5 years. Also for the development of JF-17 Block-IIIs and K-8 Block-II with chinese and also our own new generation Basic trainer along with other small and medium turbo prop planes...


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## Storm Force

3 points on the PAF MIRAGE

1. I believe there are some 150 mirages in frontline service with PAF today. Thats a huge portion of PAF total combat fleet around 35% . The planes are 40 years old . Airframe hydraulics and engines must be warn out by now..

2. Some one mentioned replacing the mirages with JF17 thunder block 2. My impression was that THUNDER was replacing the PAFs 150+ F7 CHINEASE mig21s.

With mirage being a western fighter would it not be better to replace it with a western replacement so as to keep western content HIGH in PAF arsenal.

ie Mirage2000 A FANTASTIC war plane and soon with rafales coming into the scene more and more should PAF not fish for these.

3. A Tribute to the Mirage . IMO this has been the mainstay of your airforce over IAF for 4 decades. More than any fighter i THINK the mirage took the most kills.

I am surprised that you GUYS are giving up French technology that is so dam efficient and has such good history with your air force in favour of chinease tech alone and a sprinkling of USA tech which always carrys the threat of sanctions.






These would be a incredible addition to your airforce even 70+ would be a REAL THREAT TO your enemy


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## Alphacharlie

Storm Force said:


> 3 points on the PAF MIRAGE
> 
> 1. I believe there are some 150 mirages in frontline service with PAF today. Thats a huge portion of PAF total combat fleet around 35% . The planes are 40 years old . Airframe hydraulics and engines must be warn out by now..
> 
> 2. Some one mentioned replacing the mirages with JF17 thunder block 2. My impression was that THUNDER was replacing the PAFs 150+ F7 CHINEASE mig21s.
> 
> With mirage being a western fighter would it not be better to replace it with a western replacement so as to keep western content HIGH in PAF arsenal.
> 
> ie Mirage2000 A FANTASTIC war plane and soon with rafales coming into the scene more and more should PAF not fish for these.
> 
> 3. A Tribute to the Mirage . IMO this has been the mainstay of your airforce over IAF for 4 decades. More than any fighter i THINK the mirage took the most kills.
> 
> I am surprised that you GUYS are giving up French technology that is so dam efficient and has such good history with your air force in favour of chinease tech alone and a sprinkling of USA tech which always carrys the threat of sanctions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These would be a incredible addition to your airforce even 70+ would be a REAL THREAT TO your enemy




Sunny Jim - Where will they Get the Money From !!


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## Chak Bamu

We are fine enough without them. We look for effectiveness, not origin or reputation of decades old aircraft. We were able to source Mirage III/V airframes and parts from all over the world and saved money that way. We would be stuck with a high-maintenance legacy system without recourse to methodology that saved us money in maintaining many decades old Mirage fleet. So, no thanks. Money spent on JF-17 would get us farther along than wasting time, effort, & money on Mirage 2000.


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## RAMPAGE

Storm Force said:


> 3 points on the PAF MIRAGE
> 
> 1. I believe there are some 150 mirages in frontline service with PAF today. Thats a huge portion of PAF total combat fleet around 35% . The planes are 40 years old . Airframe hydraulics and engines must be warn out by now..
> 
> 2. Some one mentioned replacing the mirages with JF17 thunder block 2. My impression was that THUNDER was replacing the PAFs 150+ F7 CHINEASE mig21s.
> 
> With mirage being a western fighter would it not be better to replace it with a western replacement so as to keep western content HIGH in PAF arsenal.
> 
> ie Mirage2000 A FANTASTIC war plane and soon with rafales coming into the scene more and more should PAF not fish for these.
> 
> 3. A Tribute to the Mirage . IMO this has been the mainstay of your airforce over IAF for 4 decades. More than any fighter i THINK the mirage took the most kills.
> 
> I am surprised that you GUYS are giving up French technology that is so dam efficient and has such good history with your air force in favour of chinease tech alone and a sprinkling of USA tech which always carrys the threat of sanctions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These would be a incredible addition to your airforce even 70+ would be a REAL THREAT TO your enemy


Don't worry mate, The Thunders replacing the Mirages will be better workhorses than their predecessors .


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## trident2010

I think it is a good idea to stick with JF-17 as Mirage replacement. Having too many different aircrafts pose difficulties and more expensive. Hi-Lo mix of F-16s, JF-17s and in future J-10/J-31 is more practical.


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## Rashid Mahmood



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## rockstar08

they really serve PAF well but now its time to retire them ... we are a little behind some modern Air forces in world but as soon as we start acquiring jf-17 blk-2 than it will be much better


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## Nishan_101

Storm Force said:


> 3 points on the PAF MIRAGE
> 
> 1. I believe there are some 150 mirages in frontline service with PAF today. Thats a huge portion of PAF total combat fleet around 35% . The planes are 40 years old . Airframe hydraulics and engines must be warn out by now..
> 
> 2. Some one mentioned replacing the mirages with JF17 thunder block 2. My impression was that THUNDER was replacing the PAFs 150+ F7 CHINEASE mig21s.
> 
> With mirage being a western fighter would it not be better to replace it with a western replacement so as to keep western content HIGH in PAF arsenal.
> 
> ie Mirage2000 A FANTASTIC war plane and soon with rafales coming into the scene more and more should PAF not fish for these.
> 
> 3. A Tribute to the Mirage . IMO this has been the mainstay of your airforce over IAF for 4 decades. More than any fighter i THINK the mirage took the most kills.
> 
> I am surprised that you GUYS are giving up French technology that is so dam efficient and has such good history with your air force in favour of chinease tech alone and a sprinkling of USA tech which always carrys the threat of sanctions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These would be a incredible addition to your airforce even 70+ would be a REAL THREAT TO your enemy



I think PAC just needs money!!!
Also we hope that this Govt. will provide them money to produce about 100++ JF-17 Block-IIs that will replace all of the 150+ F-7s and also they have already replaced the A-5Cs.
But as PAF has shown interest that it would have 300 JF-17s in total so they will surely going to produce about 150+ JF-17 Block-IIIs as well.

So we can expect that J-31 will be replacing F-16s.... and adding capability...


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## Tacticool

is block 3 the stealth variant?


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## fatman17

most of the upgraded mirages will remain in service until 2017-18. by that time there should be enough JFT- block-1 and 2 to first replace the F-7P's and then the earlier purchased mirages.

there are roughly 130 mirages in active service. others are under repair and overhaul plus many have been cannabalised for spares.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> most of the upgraded mirages will remain in service until 2017-18. by that time there should be enough JFT- block-1 and 2 to first replace the F-7P's and then the earlier purchased mirages.
> 
> there are roughly 130 mirages in active service. others are under repair and overhaul plus many have been cannabalised for spares.


Is Jf-17 replaceing F-7s and Mirage on one to one basis?Because that would put the final number at 250-300 Aircraft..


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Is Jf-17 replaceing F-7s and Mirage on one to one basis?Because that would put the final number at 250-300 Aircraft..


 
no JFT's capability is greater than the F-7Ps and the baseline mirages. no one-to-one formula. more like 1 JFT to 2-3 older a/c.

40 JFT - block-1's have replaced 40 A-5's in the ground attack role. these also have A2A capability. so superior than the A-5s.
a further 10 JFT - Blk-1's will / should replace at least 20 F-7Ps.

there are a total of 110 active F-7P's in service. the 50 JFT- Block-2's will replace this lot of 90 F-7's by 2016 if no further delays or a combination of F-7Ps and Mirages. only PAF knows the exact replacement plan.

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## araz

Storm Force said:


> 3 points on the PAF MIRAGE
> 
> 1. I believe there are some 150 mirages in frontline service with PAF today. Thats a huge portion of PAF total combat fleet around 35% . The planes are 40 years old . Airframe hydraulics and engines must be warn out by now..
> 
> 2. Some one mentioned replacing the mirages with JF17 thunder block 2. My impression was that THUNDER was replacing the PAFs 150+ F7 CHINEASE mig21s.
> 
> With mirage being a western fighter would it not be better to replace it with a western replacement so as to keep western content HIGH in PAF arsenal.
> 
> ie Mirage2000 A FANTASTIC war plane and soon with rafales coming into the scene more and more should PAF not fish for these.
> 
> 3. A Tribute to the Mirage . IMO this has been the mainstay of your airforce over IAF for 4 decades. More than any fighter i THINK the mirage took the most kills.
> 
> I am surprised that you GUYS are giving up French technology that is so dam efficient and has such good history with your air force in favour of chinease tech alone and a sprinkling of USA tech which always carrys the threat of sanctions.
> PAF missed the M2K boat a long time ago whether through lack of imagination or through intrigue a la Zardari. I think there have been at least 3-4 chances to acquire this bird but PAF has not gone down the route and now the chance is gone. Indian acquisition of the Rafale has ensured that till the contract is signed or not; PAF is excluded from the french market.
> In the old days you had the chinese planes as a fall back for any shortcomings perceived by the PAF. However as the relationship has gone from strength to strength and the Chinese aviation industry has scaled new heights of achievement PAF now has realized ( and very rightly so) that the Chinese industry is now matured enough to be relied upon completely. PAF has therefore put its eggs in the Chinese basket other than F16s.
> The situation with the F16s is a difficult one. A top notch plane and a darling of the PAF pilots, it has become like a beautiful mistress who although can be cranky and annoying at times is just too good to let go just yet. PAF has really worked hard to get these birds and maintain them. The US Government has also allowed enough hardware to trickle through for us to remain interested. The prospect of acquisition of the birds with US aid is another reason for us to want the planes. So the french and probably the US era is also coming to its end or on its last legs.The coming era is definitely Chinese and their very close collaboration with PAF and the ability to provide loans on friendship rates is a major reason for the flourishing of this partnership.
> Araz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These would be a incredible addition to your airforce even 70+ would be a REAL THREAT TO your enemy


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## Eland76

The PAF has always impressed me with how well they maintain their elderly Mirages. Those airframes were built to last!


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> Is Jf-17 replaceing F-7s and Mirage on one to one basis?Because that would put the final number at 250-300 Aircraft..


 
Highly unlikely, that would be a feat to get 150 originally envisioned JF-17. Rest of 150 or so aircraft could only come provided funds availability or emergency requirements.


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## Donatello

Luftwaffe said:


> Highly unlikely, that would be a feat to get 150 originally envisioned JF-17. Rest of 150 or so aircraft could only come provided funds availability or emergency requirements.



So are we looking at a 200 combat aircraft airforce in front of IAF?


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## trident2010

Donatello said:


> So are we looking at a 200 combat aircraft airforce in front of IAF?



200 is a very good number.


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> So are we looking at a 200 combat aircraft airforce in front of IAF?


 
Up till 2018 our fleet would consist of atleast 100-120 JF-17s [if production is increased provided funds availability], 63 F-16s [I don't know if PAF ordered more], 60-65 Mirage ROSE, 48-65 F-7PGs. But by 2020 we would already be in hurry to replace these Mirages and F-7PGs so there is no time to rest for PAF we're late and we're in panic but there is no way out of it due to bad economy. So yeah it is estimated around 275ish or 17 squadrons of these would be in service don't know about dragging non ROSE mirages till 2020, F-7P/MP would clearly be phased out.

I really don't know how PAF would keep 26 squadrons operational unless China provide more loans/manufacture for us say 3 squadrons of Block II in next couple of years.

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## Donatello

trident2010 said:


> 200 is a very good number.



No. More like 300. A figure of 400 would make Pakistani skies invincible, but that is a far fetched number.

JF-17 is much cheaper than alternatives. So it can be procured in large numbers to act as the main work horse. 250 JF-17s, 60+ F-16s, and a third medium-heavy weight fighter in 3-4 squadrons would make PAF hard hitting.

I am sure PAF is looking for the same combination, but funds at the moment are limited.

So either PAF would be operating 3 fighters or have 2 main fighters and a 3rd stealth/low observation type like J-31, to skip J-10 entirely.

But in anycase, 200 total fleet size is not sufficient, considering 2 squadrons would be needed in maritime role and a couple more in ground role. That leaves too little for AWACs escorts and A-A combat.



Luftwaffe said:


> Up till 2018 our fleet would consist of atleast 100-120 JF-17s [if production is increased provided funds availability], 63 F-16s [I don't know if PAF ordered more], 60-65 Mirage ROSE, 48-65 F-7PGs. But by 2020 we would already be in hurry to replace these Mirages and F-7PGs so there is no time to rest for PAF we're late and we're in panic but there is no way out of it due to bad economy. So yeah it is estimated around 275ish or 17 squadrons of these would be in service don't know about dragging non ROSE mirages till 2020, F-7P/MP would clearly be phased out.
> 
> I really don't know how PAF would keep 26 squadrons operational unless China provide more loans/manufacture for us say 3 squadrons of Block II in next couple of years.



F-7Ps will definitely go first, but we cannot drag Mirage ROSE too much. They are sitting ducks in modern combat.

PAF needs a 3rd type, either J-10 or J-31.

Funds Funds Funds!!!


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> PAF needs a 3rd type, either J-10 or J-31. Funds Funds Funds!!!


 
If the rumors of J-10C is true perhaps it could become an interest to PAF so far the only thing PAF is interested in is 150 Thunders and F-16 upgrades. 250 JF-17 is a large number for that funds needs to fall daily in PAF's accounts from skies just like nawaz sharif government is printing 6.5 billion rupees daily.


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## trident2010

Donatello said:


> No. More like 300. A figure of 400 would make Pakistani skies invincible, but that is a far fetched number.



If PAF has say 120 JF-17s, 60 odd F-16s and 30 odd say J-10s then it will be a decent force. Remaining should go for SAMs and long range anti-aircraft defences. Compact, lethal and state of the art AF is better than big but not so upto date AF if the primary objective of AF is defending its own skies.


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## Donatello

trident2010 said:


> If PAF has say 120 JF-17s, 60 odd F-16s and 30 odd say J-10s then it will be a decent force. Remaining should go for SAMs and long range anti-aircraft defences. Compact, lethal and state of the art AF is better than big but not so upto date AF if the primary objective of AF is defending its own skies.



SAMs can only complement the fighter fleet. The multirole fighter concept is there so your aircraft can attack at sea, land and air targets. SAMs cannot do that.

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## SQ8

trident2010 said:


> If PAF has say 120 JF-17s, 60 odd F-16s and 30 odd say J-10s then it will be a decent force. Remaining should go for SAMs and long range anti-aircraft defences. Compact, lethal and state of the art AF is better than big but not so upto date AF if the primary objective of AF is defending its own skies.



The current plan will lead to 150 JF-17s, 70 F-16s and 40 F-7PGs by 2020.

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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> The current plan will lead to 150 JF-17s, 70 F-16s and 40 F-7PGs by 2020.



Would they be enough to meet our security challenges in 2020 when we predict what they are sitting in 2013 ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Armstrong said:


> Would they be enough to meet our security challenges in 2020 when we predict what they are sitting in 2013 ?



Only time will tell butsy..

Also i wonder if US will released the sanctioned F-16s? roughly 14 ? if im not wrong...

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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> Would they be enough to meet our security challenges in 2020 when we predict what they are sitting in 2013 ?



They will be enough to ensure minimal security. I.e. Ensure that we are able to meet the best case scenario if challenged.

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## Capt.Popeye

Donatello said:


> No. More like 300. A figure of 400 would make Pakistani skies invincible, but that is a far fetched number.
> 
> JF-17 is much cheaper than alternatives. So it can be procured in large numbers to act as the main work horse. 250 JF-17s, 60+ F-16s, and a third medium-heavy weight fighter in 3-4 squadrons would make PAF hard hitting.
> 
> I am sure PAF is looking for the same combination, but funds at the moment are limited.
> 
> So either PAF would be operating 3 fighters or have 2 main fighters and a 3rd stealth/low observation type like J-31, to skip J-10 entirely.
> 
> But in anycase, 200 total fleet size is not sufficient, considering 2 squadrons would be needed in maritime role and a couple more in ground role. That leaves too little for AWACs escorts and A-A combat.
> 
> 
> 
> F-7Ps will definitely go first, but we cannot drag Mirage ROSE too much. They are sitting ducks in modern combat.
> 
> PAF needs a 3rd type, either J-10 or J-31.
> 
> Funds Funds Funds!!!


 
Not just that, Pakistan has to handle the following issues:
_Funds, Funds, Funds
Fundas, Fundas, Fundas
Fundos, Fundos, Fundos_
In no particular order; that is left to one's choice, which to tackle first !


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> Not just that, Pakistan has to handle the following issues:
> _Funds, Funds, Funds
> Fundas, Fundas, Fundas
> Fundos, Fundos, Fundos_
> In no particular order; that is left to one's choice, which to tackle first !



Funds will come automatically when Fundos are gone. The biggest problem and rather main hurdle to Pakistan's growth is law and order. Regardless of whether this sounds exaggerated..there are foreign investors who are really interested in tapping this market.. because truly it is diverse and yet untapped. But their main concern is law and order. Fix law and order..and the economy will force itself straight automatically.

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> Funds will come automatically when Fundos are gone. The biggest problem and rather main hurdle to Pakistan's growth is law and order. Regardless of whether this sounds exaggerated..there are foreign investors who are really interested in tapping this market.. because truly it is diverse and yet untapped. But their main concern is law and order. Fix law and order..and the economy will force itself straight automatically.



But you won't be here with us ? And I thought we'd set up our very own *Oscar & Armstrong Enterprises* !  

Farangiyoon kiii SMEs setup kar kar keh pataa chaleiii keiii *Oscar Sahib* has lost his connection with *the Motherland* !


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Funds will come automatically when Fundos are gone. The biggest problem and rather main hurdle to Pakistan's growth is law and order. Regardless of whether this sounds exaggerated..there are foreign investors who are really interested in tapping this market.. because truly it is diverse and yet untapped. But their main concern is law and order. Fix law and order..and the economy will force itself straight automatically.


 
Of course there are the _Fundas, Fundas, Fundas_ to be taken care of as well....

The _Fundamentals_ like who actually should have the power to run the Country, who should be able to decide all Policies; stuff like that. These issues will not go away by themselves.

All of them overlap and impact each other to a greater or lesser extent. No short-cuts really.


----------



## Donatello

Capt.Popeye said:


> Of course there are the _Fundas, Fundas, Fundas_ to be taken care of as well....
> 
> The _Fundamentals_ like who actually should have the power to run the Country, who should be able to decide all Policies; stuff like that. These issues will not go away by themselves.
> 
> All of them overlap and impact each other to a greater or lesser extent. No short-cuts really.




Like they say, money is something which can come or go.

Back in 2000s Pakistan had it's coffers full. Now it does't

While for majority of the history after Partition, Pakistan's economy averaged growth better than that of India, and thus was able to buy weapons from where ever it liked. What i am trying to say is, economy will improve.

India is the 2nd most populated region. Pakistan is 6th most population nation. So we sure too can make use of our population numbers.


Remember how India was faltering and running to IMF in 1990......but then initiated reforms.

So this funds issue is temporary.


----------



## Capt.Popeye

Donatello said:


> Like they say, money is something which can come or go.
> 
> Back in 2000s Pakistan had it's coffers full. Now it does't
> 
> While for majority of the history after Partition, Pakistan's economy averaged growth better than that of India, and thus was able to buy weapons from where ever it liked. What i am trying to say is, economy will improve.
> 
> India is the 2nd most populated region. Pakistan is 6th most population nation. So we sure too can make use of our population numbers.
> 
> 
> Remember how India was faltering and running to IMF in 1990......but then initiated reforms.
> 
> So this funds issue is temporary.


 
See, India also had this issue with _Fundas, Fundas, Fundas;_ i.e. with _Fundamentals, _but they were mainly Economic Fundamentals. The Governance Fundamentals had largely been worked on in slow (but progressive) measures since 1947. The 1990s saw India attending to the Economic Fundamentals. If one wishes to see _sustained_ Economic Growth, then one has to attend to all aspects. Also keep in my mind that a great deal of Money that has reached Pakistan since 1947 has been American Money, which did not come on the basis of Trade or Commercial reasons. That was the biggest component of the perceived buoyancy in the National Economy. This ironically was probably at its greatest during the Reigns of Ayub and Musharraff. But did that translate automatically into Pakistan being a great _Investment Destination?_

Another thing, Large Populations or the so-called Demographic Dividend are not an unmixed good or some "silver bullet". It can mean _"either more hands to work"_ or _"more mouths to feed"_ depending on how the other developmental issues are handled. India does not (and cannot) really attract Investment only because of a large Population. It can (and will) only achieve that if its perceived as a continuing Stable Political System with a functional System of Governance.
No Investor will ever overlook that, which external Govt. sourced financial handouts may; as America did in the case of Pakistan in the past.

Among the other _Fundas_; even issues of Equitable Governance or even Stable Foreign Policy or even International Image (or branding) need to be addressed. All of that need to fall in place too, for Pakistan to become an _Investment Destination. _Religion-driven discourse or debates or obscurantism cannot be helpful in any way, that regard.

Today's Pakistan needs to deal with the _Fundas, Fundas, Fundas_ more than at any time in the past.

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## Munir

I am a big fan of the old Mirages but I think they had their time. Not only did they serve decades and decades but the technology is improved in two generations that much that we should give these superb planes some rest. Just like the F6 it i time to say goodbye.


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## nomi007



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## Taygibay

Nomi, could you give an explanation of that payload in the back seat, please?
Or a link to the full description of it?
Thanks in advance, Tay.


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## Manticore

Taygibay said:


> Nomi, could you give an explanation of that payload in the back seat, please?
> Or a link to the full description of it?
> Thanks in advance, Tay.


Mirage Aircraft for Flight Simulator


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## Dazzler




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## Dazzler

Grifo-M radar..

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## blain2

Donatello said:


> So are we looking at a 200 combat aircraft airforce in front of IAF?


What matters more than the absolute numbers is the serviceability and sortie generation rates for the Air Force. The Air Force plans to streamline the types in use down to 3 in the next 6 to 8 years (JF-17, F-16s plus 1). As long as the aircraft are maintained to achieve high serviceability rates to give the PAF the required sortie generation capacity, this fleet is sufficient.

Secondly, for denial of air superiority to the other side, a 200-250 combat aircraft inventory is very significant. Generally speaking, you have multi-role aircraft which allow all of the mission profiles to be flown by the same set of aircraft and secondly, you also have early warning assets in service now which reduce the need for a very large fleet of aircraft which previously may have been needed to support standing patrolling missions etc.

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## Taygibay

@Manticore, Thank you very much for the prompt answer! 

Radio equip and not ice cream making machine as I had first thought 

I had completely forgotten about this arrangement for the guns; it has been a while since these were used in France.

Good day all, Tay.

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## nana41

Donatello said:


> Is Jf-17 replaceing F-7s and Mirage on one to one basis?Because that would put the final number at 250-300 Aircraft..


PAF would need at least 500 machines to replace all the Mirages,F-7s and A-5s.Then they wiil start working on Single Engine version of F-60/J-31,hopefully.


----------



## Munir

nana41 said:


> PAF would need at least 500 machines to replace all the Mirages,F-7s and A-5s.Then they wiil start working on Single Engine version of F-60/J-31,hopefully.



Not really. Newer planes have a lot more potential then the old ones. Just like the newer weapons. And with a very good netcentric approach there is a total new force to be reckon with. I do not understand the logic of a single engined stealth plane. You need a very big single engine or one can skip internal bays...

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## slapshot

Munir said:


> Not really. Newer planes have a lot more potential then the old ones. Just like the newer weapons. And with a very good netcentric approach there is a total new force to be reckon with. I do not understand the logic of a single engined stealth plane. You need a very big single engine or one can skip internal bays...


Interesting... considering F35 turned overweight its fairly debatable if stealth and single engine thingy can live together!


----------



## Chak Bamu

slapshot said:


> Interesting... considering F35 turned overweight its fairly debatable if stealth and single engine thingy can live together!



Not a sound example. F35 tries to be all things for all people. No wonder it turned out that way. For any well-designed product, there has to be a philosophy oriented towards a goal. If the goal is to please everyone, the design would be a miserable compromise. 

I recall that @gambit opined that it is easier to design a stealth jet around a single engine when I wondered if a stealth design could be done well enough around a single engine frame.


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## Munir

slapshot said:


> Interesting... considering F35 turned overweight its fairly debatable if stealth and single engine thingy can live together!



You do know the price, don't you?


----------



## slapshot

Munir said:


> You do know the price, don't you?


 Also I believe it would be hard to manage an internal weapon bay with an effective payload in single engine jet. Its seems rather easy to put weapon bay between two engines which is bigger and can carry more payload. 



Chak Bamu said:


> Not a sound example. F35 tries to be all things for all people. No wonder it turned out that way. For any well-designed product, there has to be a philosophy oriented towards a goal. If the goal is to please everyone, the design would be a miserable compromise.
> 
> I recall that @gambit opined that it is easier to design a stealth jet around a single engine when I wondered if a stealth design could be done well enough around a single engine frame.


The goal of F-35 was to create a single engine stealth fighter with VTOL. Every one will be pleased if they get a functional product with these specs but so far they are finding it quite hard.


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## nana41

Munir said:


> You do know the price, don't you?


A twin engine machine will be more costly to buy,operate and maintain,for pakistan at least.


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## Munir

nana41 said:


> A twin engine machine will be more costly to buy,operate and maintain,for
> pakistan at least.



I bet single engined now JSF is more expensive then anything PAF wanna buy... 

If you can counter with quality you can reduce quantity and costs...


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## SQ8

nana41 said:


> A twin engine machine will be more costly to buy,operate and maintain,for pakistan at least.



Pakistan operated twin engined machines for 50 years. Weren't that costly when compared to certain more sophisticated single engined machines.


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## Munir

Oscar said:


> Pakistan operated twin engined machines for 50 years. Weren't that costly when compared to certain more sophisticated single engined machines.



They all think a5 and f6 have one engine...


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## SQ8

Munir said:


> They all think a5 and f6 have one engine...



Cant be blamed. Most fanboys dont bother beyond looking at the front of the aircraft... be it from any side of the border

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## Dazzler

Twin engine is NOT an issue with PAF..

the Farmer was quite expensive to maintian and operate due to its inherit design as a 200 hour MTBF only desposable fighter, Soviets retired the mig-19s very early due to this very reason. Even an A-5 Fantan was expensive but it had some improvements over farmer. Fanboys need to learn a thing or two but ALAS !!

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## Luftwaffe

Even Mirages are costly to maintain specially due to their age. For PAF every aircraft is costly to maintain due to the limited budget incase of both PAF/PN, a reality everything has to be done with-in limited resources.


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## Munir

Everyone cries over RD93... Yet is is a superb simple and robust engine. Dirty fuel? No problem. No high quality maintenance facilities? No problem. Try that with GE, P&W... The problem is that most posters do not have the sources and time to read all the valuable data...

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Pakistan operated twin engined machines for 50 years. Weren't that costly when compared to certain more sophisticated single engined machines.




Hi,

Please please----stop giving such bad examples. Those twin engine aircraft could not fly out of their own way. The single engine F16 carries more load than those twins----.

Each engine had such poor out put that in order for the aircraft to take off with chicken sh-it load---they had to pu t two engines.

Pakistanis have a pet answer---oh yeah we flew twin engine plane----oh yes sir----my car has a 4 cylinder engine as well---and what car do you have----OH it is a YUGO----.

So----let me make it clear for those---who are a little IMPAIRED in understanding----. When I say twin engine---I am talking the likes of F18's SU30's J11's rafale---these aircraft can carry a massive load---and fly a long distance as well.

What was the Q5 fantan---could carry only 1000kg weapons load with a center fuel tank----and has short legs----c'mmon Oscar---you should know better.


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## Chak Bamu

@MastanKhan sb. You are right. F-6, A-5 were "majboori kay sauday". They sure can not be compared with the likes of SU-27, etc...

Personally, I find no reason to field 2-engine behemoths apart from our naval wing. We need to focus on our economy for the next decade; maybe then we can think about affording 5th. gen twin engine war planes.

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## Armstrong

Munir said:


> Everyone cries over RD93... Yet is is a superb simple and robust engine. Dirty fuel? No problem. No high quality maintenance facilities? No problem. Try that with GE, P&W... The problem is that most posters do not have the sources and time to read all the valuable data...



So what you're saying is that, in a way, the RD93 is to a GE or a P&W Engined what an AK-47 is to an M-16 - Simple & Robust if not the Best of the Best !


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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> @MastanKhan sb. You are right. F-6, A-5 were "majboori kay sauday". They sure can not be compared with the likes of SU-27, etc...
> 
> Personally, I find no reason to field 2-engine behemoths apart from our naval wing. We need to focus on our economy for the next decade; maybe then we can think about affording 5th. gen twin engine war planes.




Hi,

Karachi and surrounding areas need to be protected by aircraft that can carry similar number of bvr's and wvr's as the su 30's---secondly---for naval strikes----they need to have a large load capacity and long legs---a lots of loiter time---a 30 to 36 aircraft will be a good number.

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Karachi and surrounding areas need to be protected by aircraft that can carry similar number of bvr's and wvr's as the su 30's---secondly---for naval strikes----they need to have a large load capacity and long legs---a lots of loiter time---a 30 to 36 aircraft will be a good number.



Yes janab. 

JF-17 alone is probably not going to cut it for our coast-line & shipping lanes' defense. We need twin-engine combat aircraft with serious load and long legs. But I can not say what could that be. SU-27 & derivatives are probably not available. But this is all off-topic.

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## Alphacharlie

The Archnazi said:


> u r still flying mirage iii? he he he?...............we have mirage2000 vs



Son Dont troll. You are commenting on 2 Most Senior and Respectful members of this forum.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please please----stop giving such bad examples. Those twin engine aircraft could not fly out of their own way. The single engine F16 carries more load than those twins----.
> 
> Each engine had such poor out put that in order for the aircraft to take off with chicken sh-it load---they had to pu t two engines.
> 
> Pakistanis have a pet answer---oh yeah we flew twin engine plane----oh yes sir----my car has a 4 cylinder engine as well---and what car do you have----OH it is a YUGO----.
> 
> So----let me make it clear for those---who are a little IMPAIRED in understanding----. When I say twin engine---I am talking the likes of F18's SU30's J11's rafale---these aircraft can carry a massive load---and fly a long distance as well.
> 
> What was the Q5 fantan---could carry only 1000kg weapons load with a center fuel tank----and has short legs----c'mmon Oscar---you should know better.



I do know better. I would advise you to know better and look where the reference is to:

Low cost. Both the F-6 and Q-5 cost less per flying hour than the F-16. Why? Their engines were cheaper, their parts cheaper..and more available. Nowhere has the question of larger loads or improved performance come up.
So when refers to something like the J-31 with two RD-93s... compared with say an aircraft like the Rafale.. or Eurofighter.. the operating cost may possibly end up being lower as well as spares accessibility.

In no way does that imply that the J-31 might outperform the single engined F-35 in terms of sheer capability and effectiveness.


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## Bilal.

@Oscar, so should we take it that PAF is looking into J-31?


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## bc040400065

Munir said:


> Everyone cries over RD93... Yet is is a superb simple and robust engine. Dirty fuel? No problem. No high quality maintenance facilities? No problem. Try that with GE, P&W... The problem is that most posters do not have the sources and time to read all the valuable data...


And it(RD93) is really Really Cheap to buy. i read few years back just 2.38million a piece.


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## SQ8

Bilal. said:


> @Oscar, so should we take it that PAF is looking into J-31?


No, we should take that certain twin engined fighters may be cheaper to operate or more feasible to operate due to the nature of their powerplant and the diplomatic and international niceties.

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## Bilal.

Oscar said:


> No, we should take that certain twin engined fighters may be cheaper to operate or more feasible to operate due to the nature of their powerplant and the diplomatic and international niceties.




Probably the notion raised from AFDP-2019 which called for single engined fighter only...


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## Nishan_101

I am amazed to see that PAC haven't got the money to produce JF-17s which were costing only $15-18 Million per piece. I would say that GoP should have given them around $1.5-1.8 Billions. To produce 100 of them.


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## SQ8

Bilal. said:


> Probably the notion raised from AFDP-2019 which called for single engined fighter only...



True, that also envisaged that the aircraft come with powerplants that offer reliability and logistic guarantee in the event of sanctions. Moreover, if it does come to AFDP-post 2019.. and the need for a 5th generation asset.. there might not be a single engined powerplant available to power the aircraft that the PAF wants.

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## nomi007

only 
*MIRAGE-III *
Operator is *Pakistan*


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## Manticore



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## Nishan_101

Manticore said:


>



Quite old pic. But a superb one. MASHA ALLAH


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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## araz

Does anyone know how maj M3/5s have been modified with IFR probe.Thanks in advance


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## SQ8

nomi007 said:


> only
> *MIRAGE-III *
> Operator is *Pakistan*


Incorrect. Mirage IIIs are still operated by Argentina


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## Viper0011.

The Archnazi said:


> u r still flying mirage iii? he he he?...............we have mirage2000 vs



Wait, look who is talking......hey how about them Mig-21's or the "flying coffins" as your own pilots that survive flying that call it??? You should be the last person to criticize. Had the US jobs not been donated to you guys, you would STILL be flying the Mig-21 (BISON = Bad Integration Shi-t ONly) as other air force pilots refer to it lol

With ROSE upgrades, the older Mirages are actually very close to the Mirage 2000. Nevertheless, the airframes are much older so a replacement is needed rather soon



Oscar said:


> True, that also envisaged that the aircraft come with powerplants that offer reliability and logistic guarantee in the event of sanctions. Moreover, if it does come to AFDP-post 2019.



Do you or anyone else has pictures of these older Mirages will full payload in PAF's inventory? Also on a separate subject, what's the number of F-16's that have been MLU'd)?

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## fatman17

orangzaib said:


> Wait, look who is talking......hey how about them Mig-21's or the "flying coffins" as your own pilots that survive flying that call it??? You should be the last person to criticize. Had the US jobs not been donated to you guys, you would STILL be flying the Mig-21 (BISON = Bad Integration Shi-t ONly) as other air force pilots refer to it lol
> 
> With ROSE upgrades, the older Mirages are actually very close to the Mirage 2000. Nevertheless, the airframes are much older so a replacement is needed rather soon
> 
> 
> 
> Do you or anyone else has pictures of these older Mirages will full payload in PAF's inventory? Also on a separate subject, what's the number of F-16's that have been MLU'd)?


 
the program is running behind schedule.
from open sources...
3 pattern a/c MLU'ed in US
6 MLU'ed at TAI
6 undergoing at TAI.



Oscar said:


> Incorrect. Mirage IIIs are still operated by Argentina


 
apparantly being retired now.

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## nomi007

Oscar said:


> Incorrect. Mirage IIIs are still operated by Argentina



Dassault Mirage III descomissioned in 2011 - Argentinian airforce

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## Nishan_101

Nice Era with Mirages. But now it should be for JF-17 Block-II and can you tell me how many PAC will be producing for PAF, I wish at least 120++


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## nomi007



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## nomi007




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## nomi007

Thirsty Mirages : A No.27 Sqn _'Zarrars'_ Mirage prepares to refuel from Il-78 tanker, whereas other two aircraft from No.7 Sqn _'Bandits' _wait for their turn.





looks mirage V also have ifr probe

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## nomi007

Cobras in the Desert
Mirages from No.15 Sqn 'Cobras'



picture was taken in jordon


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## nomi007



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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 21372



With MAR-1


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Which sqdrn of mirage is deployed at Multan----I saw quiet a few of them flying around every day I was there.

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## syedali73

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Which sqdrn of mirage is deployed at Multan----I saw quiet a few of them flying around every day I was there.


It is a forward operating base. I wonder if there is a permanent deployment of any squadron there. The Mirages could have come from the nearest PAF base Rafiqui, which does deploy No. 15 and No. 27 squadrons.


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## GEMINI

They are from rafiqui probably. But have been very active since last 3 months or so. Have witnessed 5/6 fly by every day.


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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Which sqdrn of mirage is deployed at Multan----I saw quiet a few of them flying around every day I was there.




Multan airport and Airbase share the same runway. But Multan doesn't have a permanent full airbase by PAF, which i always found surprising, since the 1st Armoured Division of Pakistan Army is based there and Multan is home to the Strike Corps. So it would be natural to base a CAS squadron there.

I used to see Mirage flying there all the time, along with the venerable AH-1Fs of the Army


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## Inception-06

Donatello said:


> Multan airport and Airbase share the same runway. But Multan doesn't have a permanent full airbase by PAF, which i always found surprising, since the 1st Armoured Division of Pakistan Army is based there and Multan is home to the Strike Corps. So it would be natural to base a CAS squadron there.
> 
> I used to see Mirage flying there all the time, along with the venerable AH-1Fs of the Army



May be its a question of budge ? To run so many bases cost a huge cash.


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## nomi007




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## Donatello

Ulla said:


> May be its a question of budge ? To run so many bases cost a huge cash.



Yes. But PAF Established a new Airbase in Jacobabad for the f-16s in the middle of nowhere.

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## syedali73

Base was established by US, which we inherited. US also required F-16 blk52 to be offlimit to Chinese, and wanted to keep an eye on who was handling those jets. I have been to Jacobabad, boy hot as hell.

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## Inception-06

syedali73 said:


> I have been to Jacobabad, boy hot as hell.




Can you plz tell us something more (no details) ?, just to give us a Idea !


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Multan airport and Airbase share the same runway. But Multan doesn't have a permanent full airbase by PAF, which i always found surprising, since the 1st Armoured Division of Pakistan Army is based there and Multan is home to the Strike Corps. So it would be natural to base a CAS squadron there.
> 
> I used to see Mirage flying there all the time, along with the venerable AH-1Fs of the Army


 
multan has the PAA base with Cobra helos in support of the 1st Armored Div which is part of the strike corps. PAF uses multan as a FOB during war-time.

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## nomi007

Flight Lieutenant Salimuddin shot down an Indian Air Force SU-7 on 6, December 1971 while flying a No.5 Sqn Mirage-III EP.

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## MastanKhan

Donatello said:


> Multan airport and Airbase share the same runway. But Multan doesn't have a permanent full airbase by PAF, which i always found surprising, since the 1st Armoured Division of Pakistan Army is based there and Multan is home to the Strike Corps. So it would be natural to base a CAS squadron there.
> 
> I used to see Mirage flying there all the time, along with the venerable AH-1Fs of the Army


 
Hi,

It is an active air base---my house is bout a 150 yds from the runway fence---and I hve been there since 1979. The mirages were there and then and are still there---then the cobra gunships came. The mirages still fly all the time alomost everyday---and so do the cobras----.

My 10 yrs old nephew gets to the roof top to see them flying---s i did when I was there thre weeks go.

Missing the A on the keyboard---it works when it wants to.


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## nomi007

Mirage-IIIE Lebanese air force ... All Mirage was sold to Pakistan in 2000


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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


> Mirage-IIIE Lebanese air force ... All Mirage was sold to Pakistan in 2000



I think Pakistan has not marketed its products well in Muslim world. I am sure Lebanese Army needs Anza MK-IIIs, Baktar Shikan and UAVs....


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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> I think Pakistan has not marketed its products well in Muslim world. I am sure Lebanese Army needs Anza MK-IIIs, Baktar Shikan and UAVs....


 
1st sensible thing you have said in a while....un-ban the guy!


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## ALPHYN

I have heard PAF ROSE mirages carry LS-6 CHINEESE JDAM... from a very reliable source ..

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## fatman17

that can only be good news if true....


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## Black Eagle 90

I think PAF should get ready to get at least 110 JF-17 Block-IIs and start replacing 100 of Mirage-III/Vs

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## Black Eagle 90

DANGER-ZONE said:


> IRST POD for Mirage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Mirage -5EF (Ex-French Airforce), I believe this is ROSE III and showed off during Paris Air Show 2005, with SAGEM avionic and weapon package.
> Also notice the Targeting POD, Mirage-5f can be fitted with targeting POD as well.


If NESCOM and GIDS try they can do JV with China or Turkey over Sensor and other Electronics development for All the 3 Forces.


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## ALPHYN

THERE IS NO IRST POD ON MIRAGE .

There were some trials but the project was abandoned ...


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## Pandora

Replace these old goats already.


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## TaimiKhan

Yeah they do. But its old news buddy. AERO is making the kits in-house.


ALPHYN said:


> I have heard PAF ROSE mirages carry LS-6 CHINEESE JDAM... from a very reliable source ..

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## fatman17

ROSE-Mirages are still effective compared to the other mirages in our inventory which are/will being replaced by induction of more JFT's

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## elitepilot09

^ Photoshopped


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## fatman17

Mirage IIIEL from Lebanon

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## Manticore

Photos: Dassault Mirage 5 ROSE II Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

Mirage III-O





Mirage III-O





Mirage III-D flight line





Mirage III-D





Mirage III EP





Mirage IIIRP





Mirage V DPA





Mirage V PA

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## fatman17

Mirage V PA3 with AM-39 Exocet.





Mirage V PA3





Mirage V PA3

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## araz

7th said:


> Is PAF looking for a smaller fleet like:
> 150 JF-17s
> 200-250 F-16s
> How màny Mirages are in PAF fleet rigut now?



And there he goes again. Ullo Aadmi when will you learn. For the 200th time the requirement for F16s is 100 +/_ 20 at most. The requirement for JFT is 150-250. Rest will be filled by Mirages and The PGs.
Currently 180 mirages or thereabouts but hopefully going down soon.
Araz

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## araz

7th said:


> I am asking that when all of the F-7s and A-5C being replaced with 150 JF-17s. But what with Mirages?


Beta jee.
I wasnt born yesterday and understand exactly what you wrote and meant. Anyways in response to your question depending on funds 150- 250 JFTs will replace everything. This would be an improvement on capabilities and thereforeyou wony need a 1to 1 replacement.
Araz


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## DANGER-ZONE

araz said:


> Beta jee.
> I wasnt born yesterday and understand exactly what you wrote and meant. Anyways in response to your question depending on funds 150- 250 JFTs will replace everything. This would be an improvement on capabilities and thereforeyou wony need a 1to 1 replacement.
> Araz



He's probably Nishan .... again


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## araz

DANGER-ZONE said:


> He's probably Nishan .... again


I know it is. But I want to see whether he deserves another chance or not. I do feel sorry for him.
Araz


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## nomi007

Peoples Liberation Army General Chung Tsai Chien, DCGS inspecting cockpit of French origin Mirage aircraft during visit to PAF Base Sargodha on 10 Jan 1974.

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## nomi007



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## fatman17



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## nomi007



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## slapshot

Following two are Swiss Mirage III videos. Not exactly related to PAF but good stuff with good music .


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## HariPrasad

They are good aircraft. Upgrade them and use like we did with M2k.


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## umair86

One thing always boggled me that why PAF never got the canards for their Mirage III/V


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## Capt.Popeye

umair86 said:


> One thing always boggled me that why PAF never got the canards for their Mirage III/V



Even the French did not get canards for their Mirages!
Is it even possible to fit canards on the Mirage III/Vs? And can they even be of any use?


----------



## Bilal.

Capt.Popeye said:


> Even the French did not get canards for their Mirages!
> Is it even possible to fit canards on the Mirage III/Vs? And can they even be of any use?



Look at the Swiss example.


----------



## umair86

Capt.Popeye said:


> Even the French did not get canards for their Mirages!
> Is it even possible to fit canards on the Mirage III/Vs? And can they even be of any use?


French's retired Mirage III/V when canards were being fitted to Swiss, Brazilian and Chilean examples. Dassualt tested it on Mirage IIING and Mirage IIIEX in the 80s. Canards give extra lift which reduces take off run as well reduced landing speed. Also helps in maneuverability that negates the effects of traditional delta which bleeds energy rapidly in high G turns.


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## BelligerentPacifist

umair86 said:


> One thing always boggled me that why PAF never got the canards for their Mirage III/V


PAF's Mirages have the ATAR-5 I believe, and not the more powerful ATAR-50, which could compensate for the increased drag.


----------



## umair86

BelligerentPacifist said:


> PAF's Mirages have the ATAR-5 I believe, and not the more powerful ATAR-50, which could compensate for the increased drag.



Even Swiss and Brazilian examples had ATAR09C its not engine thats the issue.


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## nomi007

*No.7 Sqn Mirage-IIIDP equipped with in-flight refueling probe.*




302

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## Talha Mateen

As Egypt is buying MiG-35s for Free from Russia will PAF can get their 80 Mirage-Vs and 18 Mirage-2000s now??? Also Qatari can make deal with PAC to exchange 12+ Mirage-2000s with 20+ JF-17s???

Also Bahrain and Kuwait can buy same from PAC.


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## Informant

Talha Mateen said:


> As Egypt is buying MiG-35s for Free from Russia will PAF can get their 80 Mirage-Vs and 18 Mirage-2000s now??? Also Qatari can make deal with PAC to exchange 12+ Mirage-2000s with 20+ JF-17s???
> 
> Also Bahrain and Kuwait can buy same from PAC.



Hum unke Papa lagay hain? Free this free that. Why would others buy a basic 4th Gen fighter and give their superior jets to us. Before posting such nonsensical delusions, at least observe the posts.


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## Skywalker

Talha Mateen said:


> As Egypt is buying MiG-35s for Free from Russia will PAF can get their 80 Mirage-Vs and 18 Mirage-2000s now??? Also Qatari can make deal with PAC to exchange 12+ Mirage-2000s with 20+ JF-17s???
> 
> Also Bahrain and Kuwait can buy same from PAC.


Nishan 101 troll alert.

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## Talha Mateen

Skywalker said:


> Nishan 101 troll alert.


I am sure PAF needs that ....


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## DANGER-ZONE

Skywalker said:


> Nishan 101 troll alert.



Yup he sure is, Just check his posts.
@Aeronaut @Oscar


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## Talha Mateen

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Yup he sure is, Just check his posts.
> @Aeronaut @Oscar
> View attachment 42439


wow!!!


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## DANGER-ZONE

Ye Janoon hai aisa k chupai na chupay

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## Talha Mateen

Then what you seniors think??? Will country like Qatar or Syria which has a lot of money can help PAF buy some M-2000s from Egypt and UAE?


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## ice_man

Talha Mateen said:


> As Egypt is buying MiG-35s for Free from Russia will PAF can get their 80 Mirage-Vs and 18 Mirage-2000s now??? Also Qatari can make deal with PAC to exchange 12+ Mirage-2000s with 20+ JF-17s???
> 
> Also Bahrain and Kuwait can buy same from PAC.



exchange? why are these Barbies & Ken? or transformer toys?


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## Talha Mateen

ice_man said:


> exchange? why are these Barbies & Ken? or transformer toys?


I think you don't care about Pakistan at all. IAF is developing so fast and fierce. Qatar and Syria has a good deal of money and they are also against ISIL like Pakistan. So they can offer money to PAF to get M-2000s from Egypt-Qatar-UAE or even the remaining Mirages of France which might be about 150 of them which can easily be overhauled at PAC with French help and can be upgraded as well.


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## ejaz007

Talha Mateen said:


> Then what you seniors think??? Will country like Qatar or Syria which has a lot of money can help PAF buy some M-2000s from Egypt and UAE?



What are you smoking.

Why should Syria or Qatar help PAF. Who told you Syria has more money then us?


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## Junaid Ashraf

Will it be good for PAF to acquire Mirage-Vs from Egypt now as they are buying MiG-35s???

Also can you tell us other than PAF which are the current operators of Mirage-III and Vs. Also from former operators can PAF acquire more airframe and engine spares???


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

nomi007 said:


> *No.7 Sqn Mirage-IIIDP equipped with in-flight refueling probe.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 302


Question is the refueling prob project scraped??


----------



## SQ8

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> Question is the refueling prob project scraped??



Nope, just that it is not being implemented for the Mirages as much as it is for the JF-17s.

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## Mughal-Prince

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Yup he sure is, Just check his posts.
> @Aeronaut @Oscar
> View attachment 42439



Abay kon hai yeh ??? Hum ko bhikari buna ker rukh dia !! Oo bhai es ko koi sumjhao koi bhi Kuch bhi upnay mufad kay bina nahin kerta ...

No one gives any thing without their own interest PERIOD!


----------



## Shabi1

If Pakistan can get Mirage 2000s on really good terms then fine otherwise better spend that money on F-16s. Alot going to be phased out soon. Kill switch is only if you use against USAF, otherwise really really good platforms. Precision CAS of the F-16s has been one of the key factors in the victories in Zarb e Azb

PAF can always rely on Chinese systems for air superiority.


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## Junaid Ashraf

Shabi1 said:


> If Pakistan can get Mirage 2000s on really good terms then fine otherwise better spend that money on F-16s. Alot going to be phased out soon. Kill switch is only if you use against USAF, otherwise really really good platforms. Precision CAS of the F-16s has been one of the key factors in the victories in Zarb e Azb
> 
> PAF can always rely on Chinese systems for air superiority.



I think it will be far easier to gain the remaining MIrage-III&Vs and even their spares now and continue talks with Egypt, Qatar and UAE for the possible supply of M-2000s till 2020.


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## nomi007

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> Question is the refueling prob project scraped??


no paf 1st test and train their pilots on mirage III air refueling


----------



## Shabi1

Junaid Ashraf said:


> I think it will be far easier to gain the remaining MIrage-III&Vs and even their spares now and continue talks with Egypt, Qatar and UAE for the possible supply of M-2000s till 2020.



More Mirage 3s and 5s are a big NO. The existing fleet now needs to be slowly downsized. Aircraft can be cannibalized.

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## Junaid Ashraf

Shabi1 said:


> More Mirage 3s and 5s are a big NO. The existing fleet now needs to be slowly downsized. Aircraft can be cannibalized.


100% right and True! But you need to understand that PAF has a huge experience in maintaining and operating Mirage-III&Vs so that we should cannibalized most of the air crafts from 200 to just 100 but we also need to get more airframes and engines that can also be used as spares from other countries operating them now or have retired them and are selling them for scrap.


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## Informant

elitepilot09 said:


> Nishan, you are such a pathetic piece of shit. I couldn't have ever imagined that there would be such an imbecile in the world as you are.



Chill out.

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## razgriz19

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152665484409919





training young guns!
PAF Mirage air to air refueling video!!!!!!!!!!!

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## nomi007

Mirage-III (RAAF, later sold to PAF in 1990) with weapon load

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

*today* anti ship guided missile was fired from Mirage ROSE NAVY aircraft

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## Shabi1

nomi007 said:


> *today* anti ship guided missile was fired from Mirage ROSE NAVY aircraft
> View attachment 90920


From the close up of the IFR seems like a Mirage 2000. PAF Mirages have IFRs on the side of canopy this one has it in front of canopy Mirage-2000 style. Picture doesnt seem PAF.

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## Luftwaffe

Shabi1 said:


> From the close up of the IFR seems like a Mirage 2000. PAF Mirages have IFRs on the side of canopy this one has it in front of canopy Mirage-2000 style. Picture doesnt seem PAF.



You are spot on it definitely is Mirage 2000.

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## aliyusuf

Good catch @Shabb1.

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *today* anti ship guided missile was fired from Mirage ROSE NAVY aircraft
> View attachment 90920


 
navy dosnt have any mirages. PAF operates a maritime strike sqn at masroor which are capable of firing the AM-39 exocet.



nomi007 said:


> *today* anti ship guided missile was fired from Mirage ROSE NAVY aircraft
> View attachment 90920


 
PN and UAE just concluded naval excercises.


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## nomi007

PAF Mirage Rose-i upgraded fighters lineup. these fighters are equipped with Grifo M3 radar multi-mode pulse Doppler all weather fire control radar which has better air to air and air to ground performance.




PAC (Pakistan aeronautical complex) produced Grifo M3 radars under license from Italy.

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## nomi007

H-2 : PAF Mirage's lethal weapon:* A Mirage-IIIRP launching H-2 Joint Stand Off Weapon (JSOW). H-2 is a long range BVR-bomb capable of hitting enemy targets *
*
from beyond 70km. H-2 bomb is a lethal TV/IR guided glide bomb produced under license by Air Weapons Complex (AWC),Pakistan
and is fitted with hardened nose and timed fuse giving it the capability to penetrate Hardened Air Shelters (HAS) before explosion.
H-2 can strike a target upto 60 km (37.5 miles).



*

 All Mirages in PAF : Mirage-III/V wallpaper comprising of all aircraft from Mirage squadrons in 2010.PAF has been operating Mirage aircraft since 1967 and is

the largest user of Mirage aircraft after French air force.
Echelon-1: Mirage-vPA (5 Sqn), Mirage-VEF (27 Sqn), Mirage-IIIEL (22 Sqn).
Echelon-2 : Mirage-VPA3 (8 Sqn), Mirage-VEF (25 Sqn), Mirage-IIIEA (7 Sqn), Mirage-IIIDP (15 Sqn) and Mirage-IIIEA (CCS)
FAMILY PHOTO 





Night strike Eagles: *A Mirage formation from No.25 TA Sqn 'Night Strike Eagles' climbing to skies above.**
No.25 Sqn is based at Rafiqui AB, and is tasked to perform day/night interdiction and surface attack role.



*

 Falcon's Mirages:* A Mirage-III formation from No.5 Sqn 'Falcons'. Falcons was the first PAF sqn to be equipped with Mirage aircraft in 1967. *
* Over the years over 7 types of Mirage-III/V served in the unit till; the last ones being traded with F-16 Block52 aircraft in 2010



*

*Combat School's Mirage : A Combat Commanders School's Mirage-IIIEA during a training flight. CCS received ROSE-I upgraded Mirages in 2003. The unit is tasked with advance tactical flying to sharpen the skills of pilots who are proficient in Mirage aircraft.



*

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## Interceptor2014

nomi007 said:


> Mirage-III (RAAF, later sold to PAF in 1990) with weapon load



Explain each of the weapons in details. Please.



razgriz19 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152665484409919
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> training young guns!
> PAF Mirage air to air refueling video!!!!!!!!!!!



Need to see JF-17s being refuelled.


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## black-hawk_101

Can PAC convert FT-5, F-6s, F-7s, A-5Cs and Mirages along with other small turpo props into Target drones??? That can go to hit the target like Cruise missiles???

Also same for the old helicopters.


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## elitepilot09

black-hawk_101 said:


> Can PAC convert FT-5, F-6s, F-7s, A-5Cs and Mirages along with other small turpo props into Target drones??? That can go to hit the target like Cruise missiles???
> 
> Also same for the old helicopters.



The capability is there, the will to perform such a ridiculous task is not.


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## black-hawk_101

elitepilot09 said:


> The capability is there, the will to perform such a ridiculous task is not.


Why as JF-17s are there along with F-16s who needs such old fighters.


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## IrbiS

Armstrong said:


> So what you're saying is that, in a way, the RD93 is to a GE or a P&W Engined what an AK-47 is to an M-16 - Simple & Robust if not the Best of the Best !


PAF Air Commodore Mahmood Khalid said they flew one for 7000 hours

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## black-hawk_101

I think PAF should look towards:
150 JF-17s
150 F-16s Block-15 MLU-3
18+ F-16s Block-52+

Only.

Also retire all of the Mirage, F-7s, F-6, FT-5, A-5Cs and other training aicraft too.

These aircraft can be converted into Drones for targeting in enemy area.


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## PakEye

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PAF should look towards:
> These aircraft can be converted into Drones for targeting in enemy area.


you can dreaming your wishes

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Provided the Avionics and Missiles can be continuously improved , the planes offer good air support


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## black-hawk_101

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Provided the Avionics and Missiles can be continuously improved , the planes offer good air support


But these are really old planes now. I would like to seek advice from senior members on that:

as Qatar is becoming a closer ally to Pakistani brother, should Pakistan ask Qatar to assist them through money for buying UAE-Egyptian and even Qatri Mirages and more over looking to buy Greek and Peru Mirages along with Brazilian Airframes and Engines too?

Although it would be Multi Billion $$ deal for Pakistan but in return we can offer them Free of cost 50 Super Mushak, 30 K-8s and about 30 JF-17s Block-III dual seat aircraft and also large numbers of UQAB-BURRAQ UAVs with ANZA-BaktarShikan too?

Super Mushak can be used as Reccon plane as well.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

One thing you should realize , no Arab brother will be coming to help Pakistan we are on our own 
Pakistan / China May be Turkey but that is about it

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## PakEye

black-hawk_101 said:


> But these are really old planes now. I would like to seek advice from senior members on that:as Qatar is becoming a closer ally to Pakistani brother, should Pakistan ask Qatar to assist them through money for buying UAE-Egyptian and even Qatri Mirages and more over looking to buy Greek and Peru Mirages along with Brazilian Airframes and Engines too?Although it would be Multi Billion $$ deal for Pakistan but in return we can offer them Free of cost 50 Super Mushak, 30 K-8s and about 30 JF-17s Block-III dual seat aircraft and also large numbers of UQAB-BURRAQ UAVs with ANZA-BaktarShikan too?Super Mushak can be used as Reccon plane as well.


Qatar is our Brotherly country but our request for money means beg them for charity and compromising on defence assets.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We have our own resources , if we contain corruption we can buy what we want by our own money

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## PakEye

The Relations between countries based on only their national interest not on religion.


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## ghazi52

pakeye said:


> The Relations between countries based on only their national interest not on religion.


True...


----------



## fatman17

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We have our own resources , if we contain corruption we can buy what we want by our own money


 
now that is a sensible thing to say...


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## black-hawk_101

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We have our own resources , if we contain corruption we can buy what we want by our own money



We are privatizing our all sectors to 100% then its time for Military to step in to take money for themselves.


----------



## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> But these are really old planes now. I would like to seek advice from senior members on that:
> 
> as Qatar is becoming a closer ally to Pakistani brother, should Pakistan ask Qatar to assist them through money for buying UAE-Egyptian and even Qatri Mirages and more over looking to buy Greek and Peru Mirages along with Brazilian Airframes and Engines too?
> 
> Although it would be Multi Billion $$ deal for Pakistan but in return we can offer them Free of cost 50 Super Mushak, 30 K-8s and about 30 JF-17s Block-III dual seat aircraft and also large numbers of UQAB-BURRAQ UAVs with ANZA-BaktarShikan too?
> 
> Super Mushak can be used as Reccon plane as well.


I'm not a senior here as your requirement but it 'll not keep me from saying!
If Pakistan has intentions to buy and somehow arranges the MONEY THING, UAE mirages might be acquired.Because they have more Desert Falcons on order and are looking for something more advanced. So advanced that they turned down RAFALE simply because it wasn't up to their requirements and they were not willing to invest large sums for a more advanced variant like the case with the DESERT FALCONS.
Mirage would be the last of our current workhorses to retire. It may serve till at least 2020 even with the THUNDER program forwarding rapidly. The reasons, because they are moderately equipped and we have their full support structure.Our mirages are worthy asset with anti-radiation, cruise missile, night time strike, in-flight refueling and even nuclear capabilities.Also can be use for QRA and point defense.IF we replace them with Mirage-2000s, they 'll serve us well beyond 2020s.
One more thing,it's not going anywhere for coming years because, when JF-17 'll become PAF's backbone and F-7 are retired, Mirages can be used for fighter conversion(because Pakistan has no mood for 2-seat THUNDER for domestic use) given that we don't acquire a new high-tech trainer which is unlikely at least for the near future.

UAE and Qatar can't buy our trainers because they are receiving PC-21s(a prop which has replaced jets too.can also be armed with latest smart munitions) and same with JF-17.


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## airmarshal

pakeye said:


> Qatar is our Brotherly country but our request for money means beg them for charity and compromising on defence assets.



Qatar is not brotherly, please. Its an upstart. It has wealth and it wants to use it to influence. It funded FSA in Syria recently and also some daddy group of ISIS, the al-nusra. 

Pakistan should rely on its resources and expand its resources. Stopping begging. Money and aid comes with strings attached.

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## black-hawk_101

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> I'm not a senior here as your requirement but it 'll not keep me from saying!
> If Pakistan has intentions to buy and somehow arranges the MONEY THING, UAE mirages might be acquired.Because they have more Desert Falcons on order and are looking for something more advanced. So advanced that they turned down RAFALE simply because it wasn't up to their requirements and they were not willing to invest large sums for a more advanced variant like the case with the DESERT FALCONS.
> Mirage would be the last of our current workhorses to retire. It may serve till at least 2020 even with the THUNDER program forwarding rapidly. The reasons, because they are moderately equipped and we have their full support structure.Our mirages are worthy asset with anti-radiation, cruise missile, night time strike, in-flight refueling and even nuclear capabilities.Also can be use for QRA and point defense.IF we replace them with Mirage-2000s, they 'll serve us well beyond 2020s.
> One more thing,it's not going anywhere for coming years because, when JF-17 'll become PAF's backbone and F-7 are retired, Mirages can be used for fighter conversion(because Pakistan has no mood for 2-seat THUNDER for domestic use) given that we don't acquire a new high-tech trainer which is unlikely at least for the near future.
> 
> UAE and Qatar can't buy our trainers because they are receiving PC-21s(a prop which has replaced jets too.can also be armed with latest smart munitions) and same with JF-17.



You are not 100% right at all. I am sure if PAF pushed a bit more then Qatar will be 100% ready to support PAF in buying UAE Mirages along with Mirages from Egypt and aslo from South American side very easily.


----------



## black-hawk_101

airmarshal said:


> Qatar is not brotherly, please. Its an upstart. It has wealth and it wants to use it to influence. It funded FSA in Syria recently and also some daddy group of ISIS, the al-nusra.
> 
> Pakistan should rely on its resources and expand its resources. Stopping begging. Money and aid comes with strings attached.



I think and sure that there will be several strings attached but we should bring in all Mirage-2000s from UAE-Egypt-Qatar-South America and from Greece too.

More over, we should bring AH-1s too.


----------



## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> You are not 100% right at all. I am sure if PAF pushed a bit more then Qatar will be 100% ready to support PAF in buying UAE Mirages along with Mirages from Egypt and aslo from South American side very easily.


At no point I said that we can't buy.But it also doesn't mean that we can do everything.As you people are saying,there are some strings. I just named UAE because they have big fleet.Qatar itself has only a dozen fighters in its stable they can't just sell 'em without buying more for themselves.If Pakistan buys, UAE 'll be first choice.But it also depends if France is willing to get us these.
Another possibility is, may PAF buy more F-16s if opportunity presents itself and doesn't go for 2000s at all.


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## PakEye

airmarshal said:


> Qatar is not brotherly, please. Its an upstart. It has wealth and it wants to use it to influence. It funded FSA in Syria recently and also some daddy group of ISIS, the al-nusra.


Every Country of this Globe is working for safeguarding of their National Interest through oil on easy installment ,Financing, Investment, in shape of Food Aid & some through Military Influence.


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## nomi007




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## Dazzler

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think and sure that there will be several strings attached but we should bring in all Mirage-2000s from UAE-Egypt-Qatar-South America and from Greece too.
> 
> More over, we should bring AH-1s too.



are you nishan by some chance, you post like him


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## Imran Khan

Dazzler said:


> are you nishan by some chance, you post like him


no he is just nishan's ghost

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## Dazzler

Imran Khan said:


> no he is just nishan's ghost


even worse


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## Imran Khan

Dazzler said:


> even worse


some members are very east to find even on other forums  i am one of them that is why i never make 2nd ID

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## IrbiS



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## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> View attachment 137359
> View attachment 137360
> View attachment 137361


 
we discuss PAF here not what u posted....

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> we discuss PAF here not what u posted....


Be easy.Don't you wanna see what these machines and how they do it?And by the way, our jet too carry bombs and cameras in a similar manner but I never saw one so do many others haven't,maybe you have.That's why I uploaded 'em.
Fair enough?


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## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Be easy.Don't you wanna see what these machines and how they do it?And by the way, our jet too carry bombs and cameras in a similar manner but I never saw one so do many others haven't,maybe you have.That's why I uploaded 'em.
> Fair enough?


 
not really.

"The first production Mirage IIIE was delivered to the AA in January 1964, and a total of 192 was eventually delivered to that service. A good number of were built for export as well, being purchased in small quantities by Argentina, Brazil, Lebanon, Pakistan, South Africa, Spain, and Venezuela with various subvariant designations and minor variations in equipment fit. Dassault believed the customer was always right, and was happy to accommodate changes in equipment fit as customer needs and budget required. *One particularly interesting variation was the Pakistani "Mirage 5PA3", which was the only Mirage variant designed to carry the AM-39 Exocet antiship missile, and was appropriately fitted with the Thompson-CSF Agave maritime targeting radar in place of Cyrano radar."*


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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> not really.
> 
> "The first production Mirage IIIE was delivered to the AA in January 1964, and a total of 192 was eventually delivered to that service. A good number of were built for export as well, being purchased in small quantities by Argentina, Brazil, Lebanon, Pakistan, South Africa, Spain, and Venezuela with various subvariant designations and minor variations in equipment fit. Dassault believed the customer was always right, and was happy to accommodate changes in equipment fit as customer needs and budget required. *One particularly interesting variation was the Pakistani "Mirage 5PA3", which was the only Mirage variant designed to carry the AM-39 Exocet antiship missile, and was appropriately fitted with the Thompson-CSF Agave maritime targeting radar in place of Cyrano radar."*


what is this post supposed to mean? I didn't get what you wanna say?


----------



## dexter

*Once upon a time...
UAE AF Mirage undergoing overhaul at Mirage Rebuild Factory, PAC Kamra - circa 1999

Photo via Peter Foster.*

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## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> what is this post supposed to mean? I didn't get what you wanna say?


 
good for u

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> good for u


You should clear your point


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## nomi007

dexter said:


> *Once upon a time...
> UAE AF Mirage undergoing overhaul at Mirage Rebuild Factory, PAC Kamra - circa 1999
> 
> Photo via Peter Foster.*


hope we will also get UAE mirage 2000-9 as well

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## aliyusuf

Not enough money to procure and then not even nearly enough money to maintain.


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> hope we will also get UAE mirage 2000-9 as well


 
they could be a possibility of UAE 'donating' a few MK2's

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> they could be a possibility of UAE 'donating' a few MK2's


mian sab request saudis for these jets


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## nomi007

H-4SOW


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## Imran Khan

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> View attachment 137359
> View attachment 137360
> View attachment 137361


 bhai never mind per * اس بندے نے تو میراج کے دل گردے کپورے سب باہر نکال دیے *


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## IrbiS

Imran Khan said:


> bhai never mind per * اس بندے نے تو میراج کے دل گردے کپورے سب باہر نکال دیے *


Isn't it a bit too rude


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## Danish saleem

Hi to all,

One think, that during Passage of time, Pakistan Air Force, now capable enough to upgrade any Aircraft as per its requirements to International Standards.

Specially RD in Mirage is really a remarkable achievement.


----------



## dexter

Mirages patrolling over Siachen Glachier - circa 1980s.

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## dexter

No.7 Sqn "Bandits" in Exercise Bright Star'2009 in Egypt.
Egypt, German, Pakistan, Kuwait and the U.S air and ground forces participated in this exercise.

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## monitor

How many ROSE upgraded Mirage operational right now in PAF ?


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## HRK

monitor said:


> How many ROSE upgraded Mirage operational right now in PAF ?



'sweet' + 60 ..

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## fatman17

HRK said:


> 'sweet' + 60 ..


 
its around 40.


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> its around 40.



if my memory serve me right
~30 (31 or 32) in ROSE I
~20 in ROSE II
14 in ROSE III
= ~ 64 ROSE

plz rectify if my quoted figures of Mirage ROSE jets are wrong ...
=============================
An old post form this thread 



MZUBAIR said:


> PAF Mirage Total :-121(Mirage III) + 60(Mirage 5) = 181
> 
> Out of these 181 approxmately 67 AC's are RoSE
> Program ROSE (Retrofit Of Strike Element)
> 
> *Mirage IIIO ROSE I : 33
> Mirage 5F ROSE II : 20
> Mirage 5F ROSE III : 14*
> Mirage III : 88
> Mirage 5 : 26
> 
> *Note:- These numbers are till 2007, may be ROSE program installed on more AC's.
> (Dont forget PAF also bought new sealed packed engines Mirage in 2005)*Source
> _______________
> 
> *ROSE I Program*
> New Cockpit with HUD, HOTAS, MFD , GPS System,radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic countermeasures (ECM) suite ,decoy flares and chaff to confuse enemy missiles and radar, Advance Digital avionics package
> *In-flight refuelling *(Air to Air Refuling)
> 
> *Radar:-* FIAR Grifo M3 radar, Italian fire-control radar, the FIAR (now SELEX Galileo) Grifo M3, gave Mirage III ROSE I fighters the ability to fire advanced *beyond visual range (BVR) radar guided air-to-air missiles*.
> The radar has over 30 different operational air-to-air/air-to-surface mission and navigation modes.
> Air to air modes include Single/Dual Target Track and Track While Scan.
> Air to surface modes include Real Beam Map, Doppler Beam Sharpening, Sea Low/High, Ground Moving Target Indicator, Ground/Sea Moving Target Track. Other optional modes include Raid Assessment, Non Cooperative Target Identification, SAR (synthetic aperture radar) and Precision Velocity Update.
> Scanning coverage +/-60 degrees in both azimuth and elevation
> 
> *Avionics:-* ROSE avionics upgrade integrated by Sagem
> Unknown BVR Missile (May be Copy of SouthAfrican Missile)(Long range air-to-air missile).
> 
> AIM-9L Sidewinder (short range air-to-air missile).
> RAAD ALCM (Air to Surface Cruise missile)
> H2 (Air to Surface Missile)
> 
> *ROSE II Program*
> Including all features of ROSE I.
> SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system, mounted in a pod under the nose for night and at very low level operations to avoid radar.
> SAGEM Circe 2001 mission planning system.
> The cockpit is made compatible with night-vision goggles
> Forward-looking infra-red (FLIR) thermal imaging sensor and laser range-finder.
> An integrated electronic warfare suite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Rose III program*
> Including ROSE I features
> Including ROSE II features
> Improved night-time precision strike capability to the Mirage with the addition of a new SAGEM navigation/attack avionics suite
> __________________________________________________________
> 
> PAF Mirage ROSE have only the oldframes that lessened manvers capability else *technology wise its has all the things closer to 4th generation AC's*


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## Fieldmarshal

HRK said:


> if my memory serve me right
> ~30 (31 or 32) in ROSE I
> ~20 in ROSE II
> 14 in ROSE III
> = ~ 64 ROSE
> 
> plz rectify if my quoted figures of Mirage ROSE jets are wrong ...



Thanks bro

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## Juggernautjatt

Which type of air to ground weapons are deployed on PAF MIrage III/V ?


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## Donatello

Juggernautjatt said:


> Which type of air to ground weapons are deployed on PAF MIrage III/V ?



Go through this thread from page 1.

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## aliyusuf

To the best of my humble knowledge ...

Mirage-IIIEA ROSE-I Inducted=32 | Attrition~3 | Current~29
Mirage-IIDP ROSE-I Converted=3 | Attrition=0 | Current=3 (Two Seater)
Mirage-VEF ROSE-II Inducted=19 | Attrition=3 | Current=16
Mirage-VEF ROSE-III Inducted=14 | Attrition=1 | Current=13
Mirage-VDF ROSE-III Inducted=6 | Attrition=0 | Current=6 (Two Seater)

ROSE-Is --> Sqd#7 & CCS
ROSE-IIs --> Sqd#25
ROSE-IIIs--> Sqd#27

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## Najam Khan

*Zarrar Squadron Mirages*
By Najam Khan | November 25, 2014 | Mirage-III/V






No.27 Sqn “Zarrar” is the youngest combat squadron of PAF made operational on April 19, 2007.

The squadron is equipped with Mirage-VEF and Mirage-IIIDP/Mirage-VDD (Dual seat) ROSE-III aircraft, capable to perform day-night offensive and counter offensive operations. The aircraft are equipped with Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) sensors, Navigation and Attack System (NAS) and Night Vision Goggles capability.

No.27 Sqn has performed in two edition of Exercise Shaheen (Shaheen-I (2011) and Shaheen-III (2014)) with Chinese Air Force and in Exercise Al-Saqoor-II (2011) with Royal Saudi Air Force.

*No.27 Sqn Aircraft inventory:*

No.27 Sqn aircraft inventory includes mostly Mirage-VEF aircraft procured by PAF in 1996, which later undergone ROSE-III upgrade with the help of Sagem in early 2000s.

Mirage-VEF 96-728 734 745 746 747 748 749 750 752 757 (and few more air frames)
Mirage-VDD 04-001 004
Mirage-IIIDP 70-304




 

 

 


Photos of No.27 Sqn Mirages undergoing routine training flights.

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## syedali73

Najam Khan said:


> *Zarrar Squadron Mirages*
> By Najam Khan | November 25, 2014 | Mirage-III/V
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.27 Sqn “Zarrar” is the youngest combat squadron of PAF made operational on April 19, 2007.
> 
> The squadron is equipped with Mirage-VEF and Mirage-IIIDP/Mirage-VDD (Dual seat) ROSE-III aircraft, capable to perform day-night offensive and counter offensive operations. The aircraft are equipped with Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) sensors, Navigation and Attack System (NAS) and Night Vision Goggles capability.
> 
> No.27 Sqn has performed in two edition of Exercise Shaheen (Shaheen-I (2011) and Shaheen-III (2014)) with Chinese Air Force and in Exercise Al-Saqoor-II (2011) with Royal Saudi Air Force.
> 
> *No.27 Sqn Aircraft inventory:*
> 
> No.27 Sqn aircraft inventory includes mostly Mirage-VEF aircraft procured by PAF in 1996, which later undergone ROSE-III upgrade with the help of Sagem in early 2000s.
> 
> Mirage-VEF 96-728 734 745 746 747 748 749 750 752 757 (and few more air frames)
> Mirage-VDD 04-001 004
> Mirage-IIIDP 70-304
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photos of No.27 Sqn Mirages undergoing routine training flights.


Why the dual seater are equipped with the air-to-air refueling probe but not the single seater?


----------



## PakEye

Marketing#1234 said:


> I think Pakistan should go a head with the privatization of PIA, Railways and other industries that are eating up taxes and more over, they money which would be gained from selling of Corps. should be utilized to pay back loans and also to be spent on Defence procurement like F-16s Block-15s and JF-17s.


who will buy this white elephants ????


----------



## Najam Khan

syedali73 said:


> Why the dual seater are equipped with the air-to-air refueling probe but not the single seater?


The plan is to upgrade them all phase wise. 
For e.g Most of CCS Mirages are now upgraded with refueling probes

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## DESERT FIGHTER

syedali73 said:


> Why the dual seater are equipped with the air-to-air refueling probe but not the single seater?


The first mirage to be equipped with an IFR was a single seat variant:

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## syedali73

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The first mirage to be equipped with an IFR was a single seat variant:
> 
> View attachment 156513
> View attachment 156514
> View attachment 156515


Yes Sir, I am aware of that. I was commenting specifically with reference to No.27 Sqn Mirages.

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## nomi007

*No.27 Sqn Mirages



*

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## PakEye

Marketing#1234 said:


> I am sure there are many Lions who can easily buy it.


Are you aware that PIA & Railways are going in losses and in this condition the selling of this National Assets will be a big national Loss ?


----------



## PakEye

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The first mirage to be equipped with an IFR was a single seat variant:
> 
> View attachment 156513
> View attachment 156514
> View attachment 156515


What a Maintaining standard of PAF.


----------



## TOPGUN

syedali73 said:


> Why the dual seater are equipped with the air-to-air refueling probe but not the single seater?



Why not ?


----------



## fatman17

Najam Khan said:


> *Zarrar Squadron Mirages*
> By Najam Khan | November 25, 2014 | Mirage-III/V
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.27 Sqn “Zarrar” is the youngest combat squadron of PAF made operational on April 19, 2007.
> 
> The squadron is equipped with Mirage-VEF and Mirage-IIIDP/Mirage-VDD (Dual seat) ROSE-III aircraft, capable to perform day-night offensive and counter offensive operations. The aircraft are equipped with Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) sensors, Navigation and Attack System (NAS) and Night Vision Goggles capability.
> 
> No.27 Sqn has performed in two edition of Exercise Shaheen (Shaheen-I (2011) and Shaheen-III (2014)) with Chinese Air Force and in Exercise Al-Saqoor-II (2011) with Royal Saudi Air Force.
> 
> *No.27 Sqn Aircraft inventory:*
> 
> No.27 Sqn aircraft inventory includes mostly Mirage-VEF aircraft procured by PAF in 1996, which later undergone ROSE-III upgrade with the help of Sagem in early 2000s.
> 
> Mirage-VEF 96-728 734 745 746 747 748 749 750 752 757 (and few more air frames)
> Mirage-VDD 04-001 004
> Mirage-IIIDP 70-304
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photos of No.27 Sqn Mirages undergoing routine training flights.


 

**ROSE:* Retrofit Of Strike Element; is the major (Avionics + Radar) upgrade that the PAF Mirage fleet under went during the 90s.

***ROSE-I:* This included upgraded cockpit instrumentation, Grifo-M Radar and weapons system reconfiguration. (BVR-able).

***ROSE-II:* This included the SAGEM-implemented MAESTRO Nav/Attack System. (Strike).
***ROSE-III:* This included the Sagem MAESTRO Nav/Attack and FLIR. (Precision Strike).

Some 70 of the Mirages have been given ROSE upgrades - allowing them to either perform high-altitude air-superiority missions or specialized surface strike missions.


----------



## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> **ROSE:* Retrofit Of Strike Element; is the major (Avionics + Radar) upgrade that the PAF Mirage fleet under went during the 90s.
> 
> ***ROSE-I:* This included upgraded cockpit instrumentation, Grifo-M Radar and weapons system reconfiguration. (BVR-able).
> 
> ***ROSE-II:* This included the SAGEM-implemented MAESTRO Nav/Attack System. (Strike).
> ***ROSE-III:* This included the Sagem MAESTRO Nav/Attack and FLIR. (Precision Strike).
> 
> Some 70 of the Mirages have been given ROSE upgrades - allowing them to either perform high-altitude air-superiority missions or specialized surface strike missions.



I think Mirage ROSE air to air role is all but dead, since JF-17s and F-16s came along. They are good for strike, but PAF didn't opt for any French strike weapons other than Exocet....


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## Bilal.

Mirage being out fitted with IFR:

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> I think Mirage ROSE air to air role is all but dead, since JF-17s and F-16s came along. They are good for strike, but PAF didn't opt for any French strike weapons other than Exocet....


 
its good enough!


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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> its good enough!


Do you think they can deliver PGMs?


----------



## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Do you think they can deliver PGMs?


 
RoseIII is precision-strike.


----------



## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> RoseIII is precision-strike.


Yes they and their driver can see targets at night, my question is what do they attack 'em with?


----------



## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Yes they and their driver can see targets at night, my question is what do they attack 'em with?


 
PGMs


----------



## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> PGMs


which one


----------



## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> which one


 
now if i tell you, then i will have to kill you...classified mate.

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> now if i tell you, then i will have to kill you...classified mate.


That's the problem with PAF, they don't show off. But personally, I'm not convinced.

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## tarrar

The only new capabilities of Mirage which we can see these days is CRASHING. Time to ground them, scrap them & replace them with J10B which PAF dropped. In my opinion PAF committed a blunder by not going for J10B, looks like PAF is having some over smart people which they need to get rid of.

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## SQ8

tarrar said:


> The only new capabilities of Mirage which we can see these days is CRASHING. Time to ground them, scrap them & replace them with J10B which PAF dropped. In my opinion PAF committed a blunder by not going for J10B, looks like PAF is having some over smart people which they need to get rid of.



Which Mirages crashed? Pakistan operates 6 different sub types?


----------



## Hurter

Hate this aircraft & F-7 as well.


----------



## sathya

Oscar said:


> Which Mirages crashed? Pakistan operates 6 different sub types?



Pakistan Air Force Jet Crashes, No Casualty Reported | idrw.org


----------



## SQ8

sathya said:


> Pakistan Air Force Jet Crashes, No Casualty Reported | idrw.org



You did not understand the question. Which sub types crash the most? Bought in which year?


----------



## fatman17

Oscar said:


> Which Mirages crashed? Pakistan operates 6 different sub types?


 
Mirage-V Rose-III

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## sathya

Oscar said:


> You did not understand the question. Which sub types crash the most? Bought in which year?





sorry,that i don't know


----------



## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> That's the problem with PAF, they don't show off. But personally, I'm not convinced.


 
neither does the IDF-AF


----------



## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> neither does the IDF-AF


That they don't show off either?
Not many years ago, even F-16s couldn't deliver LGBs at night. Though Mirages have been configured to deliver and have demonstrated delivering medium range glide bombs and even Cruise missile but, if these capabilities were adapted across a sizeable examples, is questionable. LGBs being most doubtful.


----------



## aliyusuf

fatman17 said:


> Mirage-V Rose-III



Can it be a Mirage-VPA of Squadron 15 operating out of Rafqui?
Athara Hazari (where the plane crashed) is only around 50 km from the base.


----------



## IrbiS

PAF Mirage IIIEP tail no.67-119 at display in China

"Photos: Dassault Mirage IIIEP Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net"

"Photos: Dassault Mirage IIIEP Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net"

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## black-hawk_101

Najam Khan said:


> *Zarrar Squadron Mirages*
> By Najam Khan | November 25, 2014 | Mirage-III/V
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.27 Sqn “Zarrar” is the youngest combat squadron of PAF made operational on April 19, 2007.
> 
> The squadron is equipped with Mirage-VEF and Mirage-IIIDP/Mirage-VDD (Dual seat) ROSE-III aircraft, capable to perform day-night offensive and counter offensive operations. The aircraft are equipped with Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) sensors, Navigation and Attack System (NAS) and Night Vision Goggles capability.
> 
> No.27 Sqn has performed in two edition of Exercise Shaheen (Shaheen-I (2011) and Shaheen-III (2014)) with Chinese Air Force and in Exercise Al-Saqoor-II (2011) with Royal Saudi Air Force.
> 
> *No.27 Sqn Aircraft inventory:*
> 
> No.27 Sqn aircraft inventory includes mostly Mirage-VEF aircraft procured by PAF in 1996, which later undergone ROSE-III upgrade with the help of Sagem in early 2000s.
> 
> Mirage-VEF 96-728 734 745 746 747 748 749 750 752 757 (and few more air frames)
> Mirage-VDD 04-001 004
> Mirage-IIIDP 70-304
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photos of No.27 Sqn Mirages undergoing routine training flights.



Do you think Mirages can fight good in a war?


----------



## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> Do you think Mirages can fight good in a war?


It depends on many variables.


----------



## Storm Force

In a war presumably against India. 

You would expect the mirage pilot to carry out strike missions both cas and stand off weapons.

In a air combat role both long range cap and air supremacy over paf airspace I think the airframe and engine will be fatigued against better more modern Indian fighters like su30.MIRAGE2009.AND MIG29SMT AND K.


----------



## fatman17

Storm Force said:


> In a war presumably against India.
> 
> You would expect the mirage pilot to carry out strike missions both cas and stand off weapons.
> 
> In a air combat role both long range cap and air supremacy over paf airspace I think the airframe and engine will be fatigued against better more modern Indian fighters like su30.MIRAGE2009.AND MIG29SMT AND K.


 
oh ok..........


----------



## Thorough Pro

War is like a game of cards and you don't show your cards before time.



Umair Khan Niazi said:


> That's the problem with PAF, they don't show off. But personally, I'm not convinced.



Only if military experts were created on internet, you would be COA. 



tarrar said:


> The only new capabilities of Mirage which we can see these days is CRASHING. Time to ground them, scrap them & replace them with J10B which PAF dropped. In my opinion PAF committed a blunder by not going for J10B, looks like PAF is having some over smart people which they need to get rid of.



Fortunately machines in Pakistan don't get impressed or lose heart and get fatigued against "more Modern" machines. but if this happens in india, then you better take care of your migs, jags, and some more




Storm Force said:


> In a war presumably against India.
> 
> You would expect the mirage pilot to carry out strike missions both cas and stand off weapons.
> 
> In a air combat role both long range cap and air supremacy over paf airspace I think the airframe and engine will be fatigued against better more modern Indian fighters like su30.MIRAGE2009.AND MIG29SMT AND K.


----------



## IrbiS

Thorough Pro said:


> Only if military experts were created on internet, you would be COA.


No hard feelings Field Marshal Sir


----------



## nomi007

No.19 Sqn F-16 ADF flanked by CCS Mirages.
PAF is in process of equipping Mirages with Southafrican origin air-refueling probe, which shall improve endurance of these aircraft.

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## SQ8



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## fatman17

Oscar said:


> View attachment 162926
> 
> 
> View attachment 162921
> 
> View attachment 162922
> 
> View attachment 162923


 
hee, hee...nice comments by the AC.


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> View attachment 162926
> 
> 
> View attachment 162921
> 
> View attachment 162922
> 
> View attachment 162923



Bhai, how khwar are you? 

Can we please have a Mirage ROSE ground strike formation (MAR-1 ARMs) with JF-17s (PL5 and SD10 with KG300 jammer) as escorts?


----------



## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Bhai, how khwar are you?
> 
> Can we please have a Mirage ROSE ground strike formation (MAR-1 ARMs) with JF-17s (PL5 and SD10 with KG300 jammer) as escorts?



Takes me around 10 minutes to do so.. and I get to fly the thing in the process... "testing" out the kit. So no khwari at all. 

and sure


----------



## Wolfhound

Oscar said:


> Takes me around 10 minutes to do so.. and I get to fly the thing in the process... "testing" out the kit. So no khwari at all.
> 
> and sure


nice! What software?


----------



## IrbiS

Taken from a Bookazine.

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## IrbiS

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> View attachment 164286


Sorry guys, I didn't edit the last column 2nd pic right maybe due to minor head injury and couldn't edit timely. Here's the right one.

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## IrbiS

Cockpit view of a basic Mirage-5PA3 with radar scope for targeting EXOCET using AGAVE radar.
[Picture Copyright: Mustafa Aziz]





#560 ex-Australian Mirage IIIO with replacement wings from South African Mirage IIICZ





Mirage IIIEP Serial #101 nicknamed 'Baba' undergoing refit in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra. 'Baba' was lost in 2007 after serving 40 years with PAF since 1967, being 1st of the 18 when service ordered its initial batch.

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## Hurter

Kya manhoos shakal hai iski


----------



## IrbiS

Junaid B said:


> Kya manhoos shakal hai iski


Babay ki?


----------



## Hurter

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Babay ki?



Mirage ki yaar.. Ghatiya hai


----------



## IrbiS

Junaid B said:


> Mirage ki yaar.. Ghatiya hai


Nickname keh rha hun osi ka. Burhaapey main aesi hi ho jati hay

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## fatman17

grow up guys...

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## IrbiS

Old pic with Heat-Seekers, Dumb Bombs on Drop-Tanks, Cannon, Rocket Pods and MATRA R530 under belly.

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## Nilesh Singh

These planes must be retired immediately.......these are sitting duck to the modern fighter planes


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## PakistaniThinkTank

Nilesh Singh said:


> These planes must be retired immediately.......these are sitting duck to the modern fighter planes



It would be ideal to replace these with Jf-17 but current production is only 12 planes per year.
There is a possibility that Pakistan may acquire 28 surplus f-16s from USA.








_More than 300+ F-16 are stored at Boneyard at Davis-Monthan AFB in Arizona._

Ideal for PAF
104 F-16 (current inventory 76 F16 + _28 surplus F-16 MLU_)
50 Jf-17 block 1 (will be upgraded to block2)
50 Jf-17 block 2
50 Jf-17 block 3.
36-70 J-31

Deal for 36 FC-20 was almost done in 2010 but due to Zardari asking for his 10% from Chinese, deal fell apart.

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## IrbiS

Nilesh Singh said:


> These planes must be retired immediately.......these are sitting duck to the modern fighter planes


They still pack a punch and 'll be used if need arises in near-future. Why is India buying ASRAAMs for Jaguars? should they stand a chance only if confronted by our Mirages? leave aside the modern threats that they would definitely face.


----------



## black-hawk_101

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Old pic with Heat-Seekers, Dumb Bombs on Drop-Tanks, Cannon, Rocket Pods and MATRA R530 under belly.
> View attachment 178688



PAF had that MATRA R530 in that time WOW!!!!! Amazing....................



PakistaniThinkTank said:


> It would be ideal to replace these with Jf-17 but current production is only 12 planes per year.
> There is a possibility that Pakistan may acquire 28 surplus f-16s from USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _More than 300+ F-16 are stored at Boneyard at Davis-Monthan AFB in Arizona._
> 
> Ideal for PAF
> 104 F-16 (current inventory 76 F16 + _28 surplus F-16 MLU_)
> 50 Jf-17 block 1 (will be upgraded to block2)
> 50 Jf-17 block 2
> 50 Jf-17 block 3.
> 36-70 J-31
> 
> Deal for 36 FC-20 was almost done in 2010 but due to Zardari asking for his 10% from Chinese, deal fell apart.



Surely PAF will be acquiring these 28 F-16s from US and about more from Jordan too. Which might get license for JF-17s and K-8 or may be J-31s.


----------



## Donatello

black-hawk_101 said:


> PAF had that MATRA R530 in that time WOW!!!!! Amazing....................
> 
> 
> 
> Surely PAF will be acquiring these 28 F-16s from US and about more from Jordan too. Which might get license for JF-17s and K-8 or may be J-31s.



The R530 was a standard weapon for the Mirage, just like the AIM9 was for F-16s from day one.
The R530 isn't very advanced....or high tech......has been suprseded by the superior Super R530/MICA


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## black-hawk_101

Donatello said:


> The R530 was a standard weapon for the Mirage, just like the AIM9 was for F-16s from day one.
> The R530 isn't very advanced....or high tech......has been suprseded by the superior Super R530/MICA


But it was a BVR....


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## Nilesh Singh

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> They still pack a punch and 'll be used if need arises in near-future. Why is India buying ASRAAMs for Jaguars? should they stand a chance only if confronted by our Mirages? leave aside the modern threats that they would definitely face.


 See i am saying why mirage it is not ideal plane for Pakistan at this moment, now let me be the devil advocate here the problem is your mirage are second line defence after F-16, now about jaguar they will not meet Mirage because until India have air superiority they will not venture in Pakistan for India Jaguar is in 4th place, it can't be said same about Pakistan , because your JF-17 is still not fully proven fighter and are not in large number to take second line defense or offense. Now big carrot is will you send F16 on offensive then who will defend against Suk-30mki if you keep F16 for defense then these mirage fighter need to go for offense other wise if you are flying all your fighter in your own air space then even other Pakistani member will agree with me it will be suicidal.
Now to get out of this mess what Pakistan need to do is as your Pakistan Think Tank has said you need solid second line fighter it can either you increase F16 number to more than 140+ so that both Offense and defense can be taken by this fighter or you urgently need J-10 in some at least 50+ numbers for the second line defense.
I would love to hear from other senior Pakistan member on this but please no troll!!!thanks........


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## Hurter

PakistaniThinkTank said:


> It would be ideal to replace these with Jf-17 but current production is only 12 planes per year.
> There is a possibility that Pakistan may acquire 28 surplus f-16s from USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _More than 300+ F-16 are stored at Boneyard at Davis-Monthan AFB in Arizona._
> 
> Ideal for PAF
> 104 F-16 (current inventory 76 F16 + _28 surplus F-16 MLU_)
> 50 Jf-17 block 1 (will be upgraded to block2)
> 50 Jf-17 block 2
> 50 Jf-17 block 3.
> 36-70 J-31
> 
> Deal for 36 FC-20 was almost done in 2010 but due to Zardari asking for his 10% from Chinese, deal fell apart.



If PAF wants to buy more F16s then they should ask for block E/F not C/D. If not then PAF should consider buying latest jets than F16s.


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## Stephen Cohen

@Nilesh Singh 

Mirage 3 and Mirage 5 are Close air support planes with limited self defence capabilities

But they are Mach 2 planes 

They will attack our Armoured and mechanised formations 

And with today's stand off weapons and glide bombs; you cannot take any plane lightly


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## Nilesh Singh

See i am not doubting the capabilities of mirage 3 and mirage 5 of what it can do in war, but if you have read my post i have written from my perspective currently due to Pakistan air force situation it does not serve the purpose for what it was purchased. They need second line fighter whether it can be F16 or J-10 but definitely not Mirage. It will shooting practice for the 4++ gen aircraft. I have clearly mentioned why in my earlier post.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Nilesh Singh said:


> See i am not doubting the capabilities of mirage 3 and mirage 5 of what it can do in war, but if you have read my post i have written from my perspective currently due to Pakistan air force situation it does not serve the purpose for what it was purchased. They need second line fighter whether it can be F16 or J-10 but definitely not Mirage. It will shooting practice for the 4++ gen aircraft. I have clearly mentioned why in my earlier post.


Well there are times when F18 has killed F22, F15 has killed Rafale and F16 killed Euro Fighter Typhon. It is really difficult to say it will be shooting practice for 4++ gen. Cheaper aircraft shoots down more expensive one would always hurt more and questions would be raised. It would not matter if 15:1 ratio is considered the 1 loss would still remain a sore issue.


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## Nilesh Singh

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Well there are times when F18 has killed F22, F15 has killed Rafale and F16 killed Euro Fighter Typhon. It is really difficult to say it will be shooting practice for 4++ gen. Cheaper aircraft shoots down more expensive one would always hurt more and questions would be raised. It would not matter if 15:1 ratio is considered the 1 loss would still remain a sore issue.


 Brother thats my precise point, Pakistan needs quality fighter against its adversities, PAF would love 1 to 1 scenario, but it will more like 3 or 4 to 1 (again quality fighter), you can't turn Mirage to your 2nd line fighter, Pakistan need either more F16 or J-10 period. Mirage is good for what Pakistan has taken earlier thinking, it was never meant to be second line fighter. Pakistan bought for different purpose but now PAF is using in totally different role, it has limitation and so much up gradation you can do to 60's fighter. Same way you can't think Mig 21 bison from IAF is used for offense against F16 again IAF can do but it will not be able to hold up against F16, again my Indian friend will start from cope India exercise and all , as you have provided so many example. In IAF MIg-21, Jaguar is used for purpose only for which it was bought for not other way round. I think on this i will rest my case ,would love to hear from other member on this.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Nilesh Singh said:


> Brother thats my precise point, Pakistan needs quality fighter against its adversities, PAF would love 1 to 1 scenario, but it will more like 3 or 4 to 1 (again quality fighter), you can't turn Mirage to your 2nd line fighter, Pakistan need either more F16 or J-10 period. Mirage is good for what Pakistan has taken earlier thinking, it was never meant to be second line fighter. Pakistan bought for different purpose but now PAF is using in totally different role, it has limitation and so much up gradation you can do to 60's fighter. Same way you can't think Mig 21 bison from IAF is used for offense against F16 again IAF can do but it will not be able to hold up against F16, again my Indian friend will start from cope India exercise and all , as you have provided so many example. In IAF MIg-21, Jaguar is used for purpose only for which it was bought for not other way round. I think on this i will rest my case ,would love to hear from other member on this.



Mirage III are high speed Interceptors which is why they are still very potent. France operates Mirage V today in roles of Nuclear strike. Would this undermine that these aircraft are not potent in todays war. 

IAF Mig 21's are similar in design to the F7s but are no where close to F7P's which has be highly modified in flight performance as well as avionics. Pakistan Air force would have some other surprises as well in regards to tactics. 

The number of F16's is less that can be increased. But here the purchasing an of self product would have certain disadvantages. JF-17's can fulfil the numbers issue as well as they can be modified as to the exact requirements of PAF.

One can modify or upgrade a product but to what extent. IAF is having these issues with the MIG 21, MIG 29, JAG and Mirage 2000. So far IAF does need any improvements to the MKI otherwise that would again become a big issue.


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## Nilesh Singh

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Mirage III are high speed Interceptors which is why they are still very potent. France operates Mirage V today in roles of Nuclear strike. Would this undermine that these aircraft are not potent in todays war.
> 
> IAF Mig 21's are similar in design to the F7s but are no where close to F7P's which has be highly modified in flight performance as well as avionics. Pakistan Air force would have some other surprises as well in regards to tactics.
> 
> The number of F16's is less that can be increased. But here the purchasing an of self product would have certain disadvantages. JF-17's can fulfil the numbers issue as well as they can be modified as to the exact requirements of PAF.
> 
> One can modify or upgrade a product but to what extent. IAF is having these issues with the MIG 21, MIG 29, JAG and Mirage 2000. So far IAF does need any improvements to the MKI otherwise that would again become a big issue.



Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 with up-gradation are to totally different level fighter and you know it and as well as i also know if we check without nationalist ego it is easily in level of F16-Block 52 level. Mig-21 bison has BVR capabilities but it can't be replacement for MKI, hell not for even Mirage 2000 and Mig 29. Mirage III is a interceptor and it was made at that time to use against bomber fleet, it is not a dog fight fighter and has little self defense capabilities. Again if Mirage 5 is used as nuclear deter ant fighter then its ok, but you take this fighter to war for either defense or Offense against good fighter it will not return back, again it was made for a purpose and not for dog fight.
If you compare Mig 21 bison capability with Mirage you will find it is almost in same league but in BVR, radar range, self defense it is better than Mirage. You need Pakistan in the 1:2 ratio maximum against its enemy AF, worse than this ratio is a bad secenario, anf i am talking in 4th generation fighter. See J17 will another decade to come to the level of F16, and you need to put better radar (i think 105 km is detection range, which is very low compare to any modern fighter), and you need better avionic, chinese avionic is not the right answer. And whatever F7 up gradation has been done it is based on Mig 21 and it has its limitation, chinese are retiring in 100's every year you should not forget that. And Chinese fighter what ever it might look like it has not been tested in any real war. You Need tested fighter....Plain and simple


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## IrbiS

Nilesh Singh said:


> See i am saying why mirage it is not ideal plane for Pakistan at this moment, now let me be the devil advocate here the problem is your mirage are second line defence after F-16, now about jaguar they will not meet Mirage because until India have air superiority they will not venture in Pakistan for India Jaguar is in 4th place, it can't be said same about Pakistan , because your JF-17 is still not fully proven fighter and are not in large number to take second line defense or offense. Now big carrot is will you send F16 on offensive then who will defend against Suk-30mki if you keep F16 for defense then these mirage fighter need to go for offense other wise if you are flying all your fighter in your own air space then even other Pakistani member will agree with me it will be suicidal.
> Now to get out of this mess what Pakistan need to do is as your Pakistan Think Tank has said you need solid second line fighter it can either you increase F16 number to more than 140+ so that both Offense and defense can be taken by this fighter or you urgently need J-10 in some at least 50+ numbers for the second line defense.
> I would love to hear from other senior Pakistan member on this but please no troll!!!thanks........





Nilesh Singh said:


> Brother thats my precise point, Pakistan needs quality fighter against its adversities, PAF would love 1 to 1 scenario, but it will more like 3 or 4 to 1 (again quality fighter), you can't turn Mirage to your 2nd line fighter, Pakistan need either more F16 or J-10 period. Mirage is good for what Pakistan has taken earlier thinking, it was never meant to be second line fighter. Pakistan bought for different purpose but now PAF is using in totally different role, it has limitation and so much up gradation you can do to 60's fighter. Same way you can't think Mig 21 bison from IAF is used for offense against F16 again IAF can do but it will not be able to hold up against F16, again my Indian friend will start from cope India exercise and all , as you have provided so many example. In IAF MIg-21, Jaguar is used for purpose only for which it was bought for not other way round. I think on this i will rest my case ,would love to hear from other member on this.



First thing first, Would I like to see them replaced from frontline service with modern platforms right now? Hell yeah. But I mind you, even if they get replaced by the end of 2014, PAF shouldn't and 'll not scrap them right away. They would still be around and as I said earlier, reactivated IF needed in next few years.

So what they can do? Before going to that, one should see HOW PAF WILL FIGHT? We don't fight world wars here in sub-continent with thousand bomber raids on civil targets just to make them angry against their govt. or just about anything that we wanna hit and neither side can do it. Both sides have limited resources and in war-time you have to be as efficient as possible with your machines. If a strike package from either side reaches it target area, it would try to make every bomb count. What I mean by all that crap is that either it's a declared war on border or limited conflict, we know what you would try to hit.

For air-to-air, Mirages can defend vital point and main bases from jags and migs. That's actually our second line-of-defence : point defence of all targets against strikers and area defence against low-altitude interdictors. Primary role for F-7 but Mirages can supplement them. We don't want em to do more than that. And if tanks and troops come rumbling down on border or striking forward bases and even precision strikes with stand-off weapons against important targets not so deep inside the other side, it's ideal, cheaper compared to newer fighters and somewhat expendable(only plane, not the driver)


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## Nilesh Singh

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> First thing first, Would I like to see them replaced from frontline service with modern platforms right now? Hell yeah. But I mind you, even if they get replaced by the end of 2014, PAF shouldn't and 'll not scrap them right away. They would still be around and as I said earlier, reactivated IF needed in next few years.
> 
> So what they can do? Before going to that, one should see HOW PAF WILL FIGHT? We don't fight world wars here in sub-continent with thousand bomber raids on civil targets just to make them angry against their govt. or just about anything that we wanna hit and neither side can do it. Both sides have limited resources and in war-time you have to be as efficient as possible with your machines. If a strike package from either side reaches it target area, it would try to make every bomb count. What I mean by all that crap is that either it's a declared war on border or limited conflict, we know what you would try to hit.
> 
> For air-to-air, Mirages can defend vital point and main bases from jags and migs. That's actually our second line-of-defence : point defence of all targets and strikers and area defence against low-altitude interdictors. Primary role for F-7 but Mirages can supplement them. We don't want em to do more than that. And if tanks and troops come rumbling down on border or striking forward bases and even precision strikes with stand-off weapons against important targets not so deep inside the other side, it's ideal, cheaper compared to newer fighters and somewhat expendable(only plane, not the driver)


 See brother i understand if every thing go your way you will be ok, but is not Alice in wonderland case.........You need to have Plan B,C,D etc, but please no nuclear nonsense. In 71 war when Pakistan attacked India thinking it can take out all front line fighter and airfield in first wave, you gone horribly wrong on this and then rest is history, by the end of war PAF was reduced to 1/3rd to its original numbers although at that other than few Mig 21 we were having crap AF. You might think Pakistan down more aircraft of IAF and i will say vise-versa, bottom line is you were doing only defensive sorties after initial attack in 71 and your military planner didn't think of this situation to arise so quickly in war. Again this not my quote it is from Sochta Pakistan TV series where speaker was a high label defense bureaucrat you can see the entire interview in you tube. And you need to think logically that you can't have all answer for problem in PAF is JF-17. This is not ready fighter at any level. You need tested fighter and in big numbers and best way is to go for another 100 F-16 block 52 period.


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## IrbiS

Nilesh Singh said:


> See brother i understand if every thing go your way you will be ok, but is not Alice in wonderland case.........You need to have Plan B,C,D etc, but please no nuclear nonsense. In 71 war when Pakistan attacked India thinking it can take out all front line fighter and airfield in first wave, you gone horribly wrong on this and then rest is history, by the end of war PAF was reduced to 1/3rd to its original numbers although at that other than few Mig 21 we were having crap AF. You might think Pakistan down more aircraft of IAF and i will say vise-versa, bottom line is you were doing only defensive sorties after initial attack in 71 and your military planner didn't think of this situation to arise so quickly in war. Again this not my quote it is from Sochta Pakistan TV series where speaker was a high label defense bureaucrat you can see the entire interview in you tube. And you need to think logically that you can't have all answer for problem in PAF is JF-17. This is not ready fighter at any level. You need tested fighter and in big numbers and best way is to go for another 100 F-16 block 52 period.


71 was very big mess on our side even if I omit your role for a second and think, yeah very messy. For the record : CHENGIZ KHAN(operation) achieved its surprise element but we couldn't exploit it to favorable extent. In other words, We caught you with your pants down for some time but didn't avail the opportunity and whole other mistakes. You are talking about moeed peerzada's program.

Coming back to the issue in hands, PAF is on the par with IAF today, you can disagree with seeming PAF problems but I hope not try to test without solving IAF's many unseeming problems. It may look slow from far but JF-17 program is doing great. Block II is just about to be inducted and you 'll see a new second line emerging. It needs some more time to mature but not as much as your guess. Mirages will be replaced but we want F-7Ps to go first. I'm repeating, even gone Mirages 'll be around for a while for tasks I mentioned before and as you're saying, they would compliment numbers in a high-low end. As air chief himself said last november :
“We continue to evaluate various possibilities of other weapon systems including fighter aircraft. Depending upon the options and availability of funds, some inductions could possibly materialize in the not too distant future”
Eventually we'll get another platform but not J-10 as you said(I maybe wrong). Because, over the time JF 'll be improved to a level that it has similar capabilities to J-10 and with more F-16s InshaALLAH, we should be looking for 5th Gen or some Flanker family member at least. We don't need to rush, what IAF has today? it still has problems with Sushkas and their next refit 'll take time to complete, same case with Mirage and Migs plus Rafale and LCA ain't coming that soon.



black-hawk_101 said:


> But it was a BVR....


It didn't have that much range 17-20 km I think. Plus it was Semi-active, so not much of a wonder weapon.

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## TOPGUN

Man last time I checked this thread was about PAF Mirage's not a dick size contest with IAF and why are we talking about IAF here ? stick tot the topic people ......

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## Nilesh Singh

TOPGUN said:


> Man last time I checked this thread was about PAF Mirage's not a dick size contest with IAF and why are we talking about IAF here ? stick tot the topic people ......


 Sorry if you feel i am derailing the post i was just putting my point of view on Mirage standing in PAF.


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## TOPGUN

Nilesh Singh said:


> Sorry if you feel i am derailing the post i was just putting my point of view on Mirage standing in PAF.




Thank you Nilesh bro , but its not just you or you derailing the thread its others also . The point in the end is that the PAF Mirages are still a useful machine in war or peace time simply wither one likes it or not trust me when I tell you this but yes sooner or later they will and shall be replaced by Thunders .

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## black-hawk_101

TOPGUN said:


> Man last time I checked this thread was about PAF Mirage's not a dick size contest with IAF and why are we talking about IAF here ? stick tot the topic people ......


Top Gun how are you? Add me as Friend sir.


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## TOPGUN

black-hawk_101 said:


> Top Gun how are you? Add me as Friend sir.




I am fine bro thx and you ? ok will add you

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## black-hawk_101

TOPGUN said:


> I am fine bro thx and you ? ok will add you


Do u think that converting older planes in target drone is a good idea like older transport ones, trainers, fighter jets and helicopters that will fly just for once to hit up their targets.


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## salman-1

Mirages are the only plat form we can fiddle with any time. They are ideal plat forms to carry any weapon systems PAF likes to add to its arsenal. its American French or Chinese we can integrate on this machine. H2/4, Durandal bombs, AS-30, Exocet, Raad cruise missile, Raptor, MAR-1 brazilian, Mk-82/84 American Chinese cluster, Chinese glide bombs you name it. Now its our primary strike fighter.Nuclear as well. At least 100 air frames have not even spent their half life. 50 Ex Australian are the newest they were never flown and just were kept stored as war reserve. 40 french were taken from french air Force reserves in mid 90's .Sagem the french company upgraded them, 10 ex libyan were the same case. Only 45 air frames from our own inventory were given Rose upgrade. which were obtained in 70's and eighties.


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## TOPGUN

black-hawk_101 said:


> Do u think that converting older planes in target drone is a good idea like older transport ones, trainers, fighter jets and helicopters that will fly just for once to hit up their targets.




For PAF no its not and simply not needed .


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## IrbiS

Recent issue of CA Monthly reports that there have been *2 *accidents recently involving Mirages 
I thought it was one! Sadly, a pilot was lost


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## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Don't know if it's already posted
> View attachment 182078



Old news mate!


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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> Old news mate!


Came across it while browsing hard, should delete if the pic's already here


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## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Came across it while browsing hard, should delete if the pic's already here





Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Came across it while browsing hard, should delete if the pic's already here



No probs!


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## black-hawk_101

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Recent issue of CA Monthly reports that there have been *2 *accidents recently involving Mirages
> I thought it was one! Sadly, a pilot was lost
> 
> View attachment 180165
> View attachment 180164


So Mirages are still crashing?


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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> So Mirages are still crashing?


As it shows, yes. We should pray that these be last crashes until retirement

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## black-hawk_101

Although! It might not be as good as I am saying. But there was a very good option to buy 72+ Egyptian Mirage-Vs and put some some in Naval role along with other roles. So that PN would have about 50-60 Mirage-Vs for Naval role with 3 Squadrons.


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## TOPGUN

black-hawk_101 said:


> Although! It might not be as good as I am saying. But there was a very good option to buy 72+ Egyptian Mirage-Vs and put some some in Naval role along with other roles. So that PN would have about 50-60 Mirage-Vs for Naval role with 3 Squadrons.



Thunders will fill that gap / role for PN not to worry .

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## A2Z

TOPGUN said:


> Thunders will fill that gap / role for PN not to worry .


Will PN get a different version of thunder or same will do the job, the one airforce is using?


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## TOPGUN

A2Z said:


> Will PN get a different version of thunder or same will do the job, the one airforce is using?




Should be the same version or perhaps block 2 able to fire air to ship missiles ...

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## black-hawk_101

TOPGUN said:


> Thunders will fill that gap / role for PN not to worry .



I think now PN is looking to have its own Air fleet. I think they might also look towards buying Super Mushak & K-8s for training along with surveillance purposes other than Burraq and Uqaab.


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## A2Z

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think now PN is looking to have its own Air fleet. I think they might also look towards buying Super Mushak & K-8s for training along with surveillance purposes other than Burraq and Uqaab.


If PN plans to do so it would be a good move and would relive PAF of its coastal duties. But establishing a separate Air fleet is no easy task, PN has to train its own pilots and take them to the desired level.
This requires both time and money, and funds might be a problem at the moment.


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## nomi007



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## A2Z

nomi007 said:


>


Mirage V?

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## syed_yusuf

A2Z said:


> Mirage V?




Rose 2/3 dual seat mirage V

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## zeeshanvita

Is our mirages Rose upgraded equivalent to MK2..
I will appreciate if some 1 can answer the query..!!

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## MastanKhan

zeeshanvita said:


> Is our mirages Rose upgraded equivalent to MK2..
> I will appreciate if some 1 can answer the query..!!



MK2 is a different class of aircraft of a higher category----. It cannot be upgraded to that standard.

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## zeeshanvita

MastanKhan said:


> MK2 is a different class of aircraft of a higher category----. It cannot be upgraded to that standard.


I understand what your saying...its M2k is big in size with greater range and payload capability but after Rose up gradation with advance radar and Electronic suits which made Our Mirages night attack capable plus ability to launch stand off weapons and cruise missiles.
Dont you think they are at least capable to MK2

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## Danish saleem

zeeshanvita said:


> I understand what your saying...its M2k is big in size with greater range and payload capability but after Rose up gradation with advance radar and Electronic suits which made Our Mirages night attack capable plus ability to launch stand off weapons and cruise missiles.
> Dont you think they are at least capable to MK2



and Mirages are less in size, then their manoeuvrability is better than MKs.

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## MastanKhan

zeeshanvita said:


> I understand what your saying...its M2k is big in size with greater range and payload capability but after Rose up gradation with advance radar and Electronic suits which made Our Mirages night attack capable plus ability to launch stand off weapons and cruise missiles.
> Dont you think they are at least capable to MK2



Hi,

Look at it this way---is a Honda Civic Better than a Honda Accord.

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## zeeshanvita

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Look at it this way---is a Honda Civic Better than a Honda Accord.


certainly not....honda accord will stay ahead then civic...but take it in this way that if civic is customize in a manner to hold all facilities which accord have although we cannot put V6 engine of accord in civic or big small body of civic cannot be mold in accord body which is big...inside things can be change..

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## MastanKhan

zeeshanvita said:


> certainly not....honda accord will stay ahead then civic...but take it in this way that if civic is customize in a manner to hold all facilities which accord have although we cannot put V6 engine of accord in civic or big small body of civic cannot be mold in accord body which is big...inside things can be change..



Hi,

You can only do so much---after that it is neither cost effective or strike effective---.

Here in California---there are 90's civic modified to 500 horse power---but it is still a civic.

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## zeeshanvita

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You can only do so much---after that it is neither cost effective or strike effective---.
> 
> Here in California---there are 90's civic modified to 500 horse power---but it is still a civic.


Yea Here in dubai i have also seen few Mitsubishi lancers modified aswell....

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## IrbiS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/527451366583566338

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## nomi007

*Mirage III *

PAF ordered its first batch of 24 Mirage, known as Blue Flash I, in 1967, comprising 18 Mirage IIIEP strike-interceptors, three Mirage IIIRP tactical recce aircraft and three Mirage IIIDP dual-seat trainers. Within weeks, six PAF pilots were sent to Mont de Marsan in France to train on the aircraft. The pioneers were Wg Cdr MM Alam (the PAF 1965 War Ace who eventually retired as an Air Cdre), Sqn Ldr Hakimullah (later Chief of Air Staff), Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan (later Chief of Air Staff), Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar (retired as Air Vice Marshal), Flt Lt Arif Manzoor (died in Syria in a flying accident) and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao (retired as a Wg Cdr). The training took some nine months and saw the first six Mirage IIIEPs (67-101 to 67-106) being flown from Mont de Marson to Karachi on March 18, 1968. All of the aircraft were delivered to No. 5 Squadron, which was fully operational by the 1971 War, when it flew over 200 day and night sorties from its home base, Sargodha, along with a detachment in Mianwali. Ten more Mirage IIIRPs were delivered under Blue Flash III. Later, a Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) system with the antennas mounted in the tailfin was retrofitted by the PAF indigenously. For offensive missions there were twin 30mm DEFA-552 cannon, and seven stores pylons, with a total store capacity of 8,800lbs (4,000kgs). The ten Mirage IIIRPs were delivered to No. 20 (Tactical and Recce) Squadron in June 1977, while the earlier Mirage IIIRPs of No. 5 Squadron also joined No. 20 Squadron. Under Blue Flash V, a total of 42 single-seat Mirage IIIEA (ex-Australia) and eight Mirage IIIDAs (DA-Dual ex-Australia) were acquired and by June 1992, ten Mirage IIIEAs and four Mirage IIIDAs had been delivered to No. 7 Squadron. Most of the 42 Mirage IIIEAs were eventually despatched to PAC Kamra, where they were put through a Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE) upgrade in co-operation with the French aerospace upgrade specialists, Sagem, in 1995. Deliveries of the ROSE Mirage IIIEAs commenced in 1996 to No. 7 Squadron at Masroor and the CCS at Mushaf. These ROSE aircraft all came with a Grifo-M radar and modern air-to-air missiles. Five Mirage IIIDPs and ten Mirage IIIEAs that were not upgraded were distributed to No. 5 Squadron along with five recce noses and cameras the RAAF had supplied. They replaced many of the original Mirage IIIEPs. Some of the Mirage IIIEA single-seaters had Infra Red Line Scanners (IRLS) integrated into their systems and at least two others were modified to carry a Long Range Aerial Panoramic (LORAP) photographic system. In 2003, the PAF bought 12 Mirage IIIEEs and one Mirage IIIDE from Spanish Air Force for spares cannibalization and, unlike the Australian or Lebanese purchases, that is just what they are being used for. Their condition dictated there was no way that any of them could be returned to service.

Mirage V 

In 1970, a second batch (Blue Flash II) of Mirages comprising 28 Mirage VPAs (a long-range version of the Mirage IIIE) and a pair of two-seat Mirage IIIDPs, were ordered. The Mirage VPAs were fitted with the Aida II radar to provide the fighter with a ranging capability. Eighteen Mirage VPAs were delivered to No. 9 Squadron, a tactical attack unit that also housed the Mirage Operational Conversion Unit, at Rafiqui in January 1973; the remaining ten Mirage VPAs went to equip the Mirage Squadron of the Combat Commanders' School (CCS). In 1978, the PAF increased its Mirage acquisitions by a further 32 aircraft (Blue Flash IV) with the purchase of 30 Mirage VPA2/3s and two more Mirage VDPA2s. Production of the aircraft started in 1979 and the first batch (Mirage VPA2s) equipped the reformed No. 18 Squadron at Rafiqui in 1982, while No. 8 Squadron at Masroor was re-equipped with a mix of Mirage VPA2 and PA3 in the same year. The Mirage VPA3s came armed with the AM 39 Exocet anti-shipping missile that performed so well during the 1982 Falklands War. The Mirage VPA3s are fitted with the Thomson CSF Agave radar to guide the Exocet to its target. Early in 1996 the PAF signed a contract, with Sagem for the upgrade of 33 Mirage VEFs and six Mirage IIIDFs which were all eventually upgraded to ROSE standard. There were originally 40 aircraft in the contract but a French test-pilot crashed one of them after hitting electricity cables in France during 2000. This programme did not run smoothly because of a lack of spare parts. An initial 19 aircraft were eventually delivered to No. 25 Squadron at Kamra-Minhas, but this did not commence until mid-1998, when experienced PAF Mirage pilots ferried them from Bordeaux, France, to Masroor. The last eight remaining Mirage VEFs of the Blue Flash VI contract were delivered to No. 22 OCU at Masroor, where pilots convert to the Mirage. This allowed the Mirage VPAs serving the unit to be released to No. 8 Squadron for operational use. Clearly, the PAF leadership were keen to beep up their Mirage squadrons with an aircraft that only cost a fraction of a new fighter. These former Lebanese Mirages were eventually transferred to No. 22 OCU, when their Mirage VEFs went to PAC Kamra for ROSE modifications. This provided the PAF with an all important tactical night attack capability and the ROSE Mirage VEFs were delivered to the newly created No. 27 Squadron, which stood up in April 2007 at Rafiqui, under the command of Wg Cdr Shafqat. By now the PAF had gained a reputation of being the world's experts on the Mirage classic. After acquiring the bulk of Libya's Mirages several of them have been overhauled and delivered to a variety of squadrons, although No. 5 Squadron took the Mirage VDRs. Pakistan's ingenuity and engineering skills have meant the Mirages continue to play a major part in the defence of Pakistan airspace.

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *Mirage III *
> 
> PAF ordered its first batch of 24 Mirage, known as Blue Flash I, in 1967, comprising 18 Mirage IIIEP strike-interceptors, three Mirage IIIRP tactical recce aircraft and three Mirage IIIDP dual-seat trainers. Within weeks, six PAF pilots were sent to Mont de Marsan in France to train on the aircraft. The pioneers were Wg Cdr MM Alam (the PAF 1965 War Ace who eventually retired as an Air Cdre), Sqn Ldr Hakimullah (later Chief of Air Staff), Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan (later Chief of Air Staff), Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar (retired as Air Vice Marshal), Flt Lt Arif Manzoor (died in Syria in a flying accident) and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao (retired as a Wg Cdr). The training took some nine months and saw the first six Mirage IIIEPs (67-101 to 67-106) being flown from Mont de Marson to Karachi on March 18, 1968. All of the aircraft were delivered to No. 5 Squadron, which was fully operational by the 1971 War, when it flew over 200 day and night sorties from its home base, Sargodha, along with a detachment in Mianwali. Ten more Mirage IIIRPs were delivered under Blue Flash III. Later, a Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) system with the antennas mounted in the tailfin was retrofitted by the PAF indigenously. For offensive missions there were twin 30mm DEFA-552 cannon, and seven stores pylons, with a total store capacity of 8,800lbs (4,000kgs). The ten Mirage IIIRPs were delivered to No. 20 (Tactical and Recce) Squadron in June 1977, while the earlier Mirage IIIRPs of No. 5 Squadron also joined No. 20 Squadron. Under Blue Flash V, a total of 42 single-seat Mirage IIIEA (ex-Australia) and eight Mirage IIIDAs (DA-Dual ex-Australia) were acquired and by June 1992, ten Mirage IIIEAs and four Mirage IIIDAs had been delivered to No. 7 Squadron. Most of the 42 Mirage IIIEAs were eventually despatched to PAC Kamra, where they were put through a Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE) upgrade in co-operation with the French aerospace upgrade specialists, Sagem, in 1995. Deliveries of the ROSE Mirage IIIEAs commenced in 1996 to No. 7 Squadron at Masroor and the CCS at Mushaf. These ROSE aircraft all came with a Grifo-M radar and modern air-to-air missiles. Five Mirage IIIDPs and ten Mirage IIIEAs that were not upgraded were distributed to No. 5 Squadron along with five recce noses and cameras the RAAF had supplied. They replaced many of the original Mirage IIIEPs. Some of the Mirage IIIEA single-seaters had Infra Red Line Scanners (IRLS) integrated into their systems and at least two others were modified to carry a Long Range Aerial Panoramic (LORAP) photographic system. In 2003, the PAF bought 12 Mirage IIIEEs and one Mirage IIIDE from Spanish Air Force for spares cannibalization and, unlike the Australian or Lebanese purchases, that is just what they are being used for. Their condition dictated there was no way that any of them could be returned to service.
> 
> Mirage V
> 
> In 1970, a second batch (Blue Flash II) of Mirages comprising 28 Mirage VPAs (a long-range version of the Mirage IIIE) and a pair of two-seat Mirage IIIDPs, were ordered. The Mirage VPAs were fitted with the Aida II radar to provide the fighter with a ranging capability. Eighteen Mirage VPAs were delivered to No. 9 Squadron, a tactical attack unit that also housed the Mirage Operational Conversion Unit, at Rafiqui in January 1973; the remaining ten Mirage VPAs went to equip the Mirage Squadron of the Combat Commanders' School (CCS). In 1978, the PAF increased its Mirage acquisitions by a further 32 aircraft (Blue Flash IV) with the purchase of 30 Mirage VPA2/3s and two more Mirage VDPA2s. Production of the aircraft started in 1979 and the first batch (Mirage VPA2s) equipped the reformed No. 18 Squadron at Rafiqui in 1982, while No. 8 Squadron at Masroor was re-equipped with a mix of Mirage VPA2 and PA3 in the same year. The Mirage VPA3s came armed with the AM 39 Exocet anti-shipping missile that performed so well during the 1982 Falklands War. The Mirage VPA3s are fitted with the Thomson CSF Agave radar to guide the Exocet to its target. Early in 1996 the PAF signed a contract, with Sagem for the upgrade of 33 Mirage VEFs and six Mirage IIIDFs which were all eventually upgraded to ROSE standard. There were originally 40 aircraft in the contract but a French test-pilot crashed one of them after hitting electricity cables in France during 2000. This programme did not run smoothly because of a lack of spare parts. An initial 19 aircraft were eventually delivered to No. 25 Squadron at Kamra-Minhas, but this did not commence until mid-1998, when experienced PAF Mirage pilots ferried them from Bordeaux, France, to Masroor. The last eight remaining Mirage VEFs of the Blue Flash VI contract were delivered to No. 22 OCU at Masroor, where pilots convert to the Mirage. This allowed the Mirage VPAs serving the unit to be released to No. 8 Squadron for operational use. Clearly, the PAF leadership were keen to beep up their Mirage squadrons with an aircraft that only cost a fraction of a new fighter. These former Lebanese Mirages were eventually transferred to No. 22 OCU, when their Mirage VEFs went to PAC Kamra for ROSE modifications. This provided the PAF with an all important tactical night attack capability and the ROSE Mirage VEFs were delivered to the newly created No. 27 Squadron, which stood up in April 2007 at Rafiqui, under the command of Wg Cdr Shafqat. By now the PAF had gained a reputation of being the world's experts on the Mirage classic. After acquiring the bulk of Libya's Mirages several of them have been overhauled and delivered to a variety of squadrons, although No. 5 Squadron took the Mirage VDRs. Pakistan's ingenuity and engineering skills have meant the Mirages continue to play a major part in the defence of Pakistan airspace.



Posted previously

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## Sage



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## Donatello

Sage said:


> View attachment 207480
> View attachment 207481
> View attachment 207482



No5 has been re-equipped with the BLK52 f-16s

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## Sage

Donatello said:


> No5 has been re-equipped with the BLK52 f-16s


Yes , I just got my hands on an album of a retired PAF pilot actually

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## Donatello

Sage said:


> Yes , I just got my hands on an album of a retired PAF pilot actually



Good. Share more if you can, with their permission of course......but more like in Airforce multimedia thread.

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## Sage

Mirage Pilots stretching out in Governor House, Punjab !








Donatello said:


> Good. Share more if you can, with their permission of course......but more like in Airforce multimedia thread.


I have his permission sir !

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## blain2

Junaid B said:


> If PAF wants to buy more F16s then they should ask for block E/F not C/D. If not then PAF should consider buying latest jets than F16s.


Why would PAF want to take the headache of maintaining 3 different versions of F-16 in service? Blocks 15/52 have been consolidated to same avionics post the MLU of the block 15 fleet. Block 60 is a totally different aircraft and the avionics capability afforded by its radar and ECM suite is something that PAF can pass on now due to the overall capability that is being fielded now. In terms of the weapons capability, block 52 and 60 are at par.



Nilesh Singh said:


> See brother i understand if every thing go your way you will be ok, but is not Alice in wonderland case.........You need to have Plan B,C,D etc, but please no nuclear nonsense. In 71 war when Pakistan attacked India thinking it can take out all front line fighter and airfield in first wave, you gone horribly wrong on this and then rest is history, by the end of war PAF was reduced to 1/3rd to its original numbers although at that other than few Mig 21 we were having crap AF. You might think Pakistan down more aircraft of IAF and i will say vise-versa, bottom line is you were doing only defensive sorties after initial attack in 71 and your military planner didn't think of this situation to arise so quickly in war. Again this not my quote it is from Sochta Pakistan TV series where speaker was a high label defense bureaucrat you can see the entire interview in you tube. And you need to think logically that you can't have all answer for problem in PAF is JF-17. This is not ready fighter at any level. You need tested fighter and in big numbers and best way is to go for another 100 F-16 block 52 period.


How did you arrive at PAF being reduced to 1/3rd of its original inventory?
Our plan in 1971 was to interdict forward air bases of the IAF so they would not be able to assist the IA in its operations against West Pakistan.

Secondly, who says that IAF had junk in 1971? You had Mig-21s in large numbers and Su-22s which were relatively new aircraft and a match for PAF's Mirage, F-6 and a limited F-104 fleet.

I don't know what "defensive sorties" in your mind means. We were conducting sorties in alignment with a plan that required PAF to hold aircraft in reserve for a major combined operation with the Army which did not materialize because the war ended rather quickly. It was not because PAF had lost an inordinate number of aircraft. The air war in 1971 was pretty much an even Steven affair.

Lastly, the JF-17 is a marvelous platform any which way one looks at it (I don't expect you to understand that simply due to inherent bias you have which gets in the way of an objective analysis of the benefits of this aircraft in the PAF fleet). We are testing the aircraft in actual operations conducting strike missions. We are evaluating it in exercises and with the Chinese. We are integrating a new weapons capability on an average of 1 or 2 annually to the JF-17 and we are revolutionizing the training of our pilots and crews due to the induction of this aircraft in the service.

The air warfare paradigm has shifted from a platform centric one to a force centric one. We have a very balanced potency within the PAF now if we look at the overall capabilities within the fleet and this capability will allow PAF very robust offensive and defensive capability in the future without being beholden to Western suppliers.

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## Najam Khan

For Delta lovers! More photos here.

Inter-Squadron Armament Competition'2007

7 SQN













27 SQN

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## nomi007

*H-2 SOW*

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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> *H-2 SOW*



That's a rarity if not photo shopped

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## IrbiS

Dazzler said:


> That's a rarity if not photo shopped


It's 200% P.Shopped

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## nomi007

IrbiS said:


> It's 200% P.Shopped


its real not fake 
lolx


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## IrbiS

nomi007 said:


> its real not fake
> lolx


Better me than saying it's real


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## nomi007

IrbiS said:


> Better me than saying it's real


bro suicide is better option


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## IrbiS

nomi007 said:


> bro suicide is better option


No haram


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## Storm Force

> Lastly, the JF-17 is a marvelous platform


Blain Your Quote..

Yes its marvellous because it firstly reduces your reliance on the west where you fear sanctions

And secondly for a nation with very limited relative resources to your rival allows you to replace obsolete fighters like VINTAGE Mirages and F7 OVER THE NEXT DECADE..

The chinease are keeping your military afloat with increasingly sophisticated hardware at very low cost.

But lets get reality check

The cutting edge game changers are stil the falcons

An ideal world to take on rival equipped with nearly 400 su30mki upgraded mirage2000/5 and new MIG29K /SMT you will need western hardware balancing the Thunder. sqds.

The are 2 glariing weaknesees in PAF today.

Firstly very poor medium and long range Sam/ABM defense both missles and modern radars.

Second Too few cutting edge fourth generation planes.


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## HRK

Storm Force said:


> An ideal world to take on rival equipped with nearly 400 su30mki upgraded mirage2000/5 and new MIG29K /SMT you will need western hardware balancing the Thunder. sqds.



typical fanboy post:

India have +400 (4th & 4+ generation) aircraft with the availability rate of around 60% = *240 aircraft *
In case of war even if India manage to increase the availability rate upto *80%* = *320 aircraft*
less at least 60 aircraft for eastern theater = (320-60) = *260 aircraft *

against Pakistan's *154 *(171 aircraft with ~ 90% availability) 4 generation aircraft which mean = 260/154 = *1.6:1 aircraft 

Or In real world 2 Indian aircraft against 1 Pakistani aircraft, *so my dear even with the so called might & superiority complex of India situation on the ground in not as worst .... India still can't create a doomsday scenario against Pakistan.

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## HRK

^^ a very good piece of advice 'for all the posters' .....

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## volatile

Last Samuri said:


> JF17 is a chinease fighter wuith chinease radars and missles. NOW please tell me how many chinease fighters have achieve a air to air kill in last two decades. ANSWER = nil



Quote before you speak a radar is a radar and on thunder radar is produced in collaboration with Italian`s .If for one instance it is Chinese (Chinese are making AESA radar) Fact is no one has to answer to your silly arguments here are some facts .

*Indo-Pakistan Wars[edit]*



A retired Pakistan Air Force F-6 on display.
The F-6 was flown by the Pakistan Air Force from 1965 to 2002, the aircraft design undergoing around 140 modifications to improve its capabilities in the interceptor and close air support roles. *The PAF F-6 fighters participated in the *Indo-Pak War 1971* against India, scoring approximately 6 confirmed aerial victories including one Indian *Mig-21*. *The three Pakistani J-6 squadrons flew nearly a thousand sorties,[3] during which the PAF lost 3 F-6 to ground fire and one in aerial combat. An F-6 was also lost to friendly fire.[_citation needed_][4] One of the F-6 pilots shot down was Wajid Ali Khan, who was taken as a POW and later became a Member of Parliament in Canada. The single seat F-6 was retired from the Pakistani Air Force in 2002, but the two-seat trainer, the FT-6, remains in service in very small numbers.

Bring your mighty force we will see how much it is capable ,Even your mighty airforce is vulnerable to manpad`s considering we don't have to kill it by fighter

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## SQ8

Folks, please report when you encounter idiots from across the border whose sole purpose in their miserable lives is to post parroted nonsense in discussion. We aim to ensure that such members are removed from the play to let more intelligent discussion continue.

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## fatman17

NO. 8 SQUADRON'S "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE" SUCCEEDS

1500 HOURS - 30 MAY 1995



Flying a few feet above the Arabian Sea, the two Mirage pilots are impressed by the awesome silhouette of the nuclear-powered Abraham Lincoln as the carrier looms gradually above the sea curvature, dead on the nose. The mission: To penetrate successfully the Carrier Task Force's early warning and perimeter defences and, to deliver a simulated Exocet guided missile attack on "the world's largest warship". The memorable sortie was flown during "Inspired Alert" - a Pakistan-US joint exercise. O.C. No. 8 Squadron, strictly following the ground rules, planned and led a simultaneous multidirectional attack profile against CVN-72, in an attempt to overload its defence. As two of the three Mirage pairs turned away, the lead Mirage carried out a simulated Exocet "launch" from several miles away, without meeting any of the ship's fighters. The Squadron Commander and his wingman later did a friendly fly by at the carrier's side, perhaps just as surprised as the Lincoln's crews, at the missed interception.

Wing Commander Asim Suleiman Leader and O.C. No 8 Squadron
Flight Lieutenant Ahmed Hassan Wingman

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## Daikhlotv

Great.. .


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## ghazi52

Thanks for sharing.


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## parkour guy

Really great.


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## fatman17

Mirage at China war museum


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## black-hawk_101

Any chances of getting surplus mirages from Egypt? As they are quite good in bombings. What would be their estimated cost and how many of them are available for PAF?


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## fatman17

black-hawk_101 said:


> Any chances of getting surplus mirages from Egypt? As they are quite good in bombings. What would be their estimated cost and how many of them are available for PAF?



Pakistan will not procure any more Mirages.

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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan will not procure any more Mirages.


Tell me that as this Operation Decisive Storm might be planned about 10 years ago. So, why not Egypt opted to get 150 FAF Mirage-2000s with upgrades as ME big players would be paying for that along with some Rafael, F-16s and MiG-29s which they are already getting.

I am then PAF might have deal with Egyptian Mirage Vs.


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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> Tell me that as this Operation Decisive Storm might be planned about 10 years ago. So, why not Egypt opted to get 150 FAF Mirage-2000s with upgrades as ME big players would be paying for that along with some Rafael, F-16s and MiG-29s which they are already getting.
> 
> I am then PAF might have deal with Egyptian Mirage Vs.



You are the biggest operator of Mirage III / V in the world. How many more do you want?


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## black-hawk_101

IrbiS said:


> You are the biggest operator of Mirage III / V in the world. How many more do you want?


Some more will be pleasant too. They are good at Bombing!


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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> Some more will be pleasant too. They are good at Bombing!



It's time to move on

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## black-hawk_101

IrbiS said:


> It's time to move on


I think Egypt lost a chance to earn . Masha ALLAH Pakistan has money and is investing good in JF-17, K-8, Super Mushak and UAVs with future UCAVs.

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## Windjammer

Low level flypast by a PAF Mirage-V PA-3.


Link

@Oscar @Horus @fatman17

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## IrbiS

Windjammer said:


> Low level flypast by a PAF Mirage-V PA-3.
> 
> 
> Link



Jaw dropping


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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> Low level flypast by a PAF Mirage-V PA-3.
> 
> 
> Link



Behtreen, have you seen french low flyby videos ? Video would've been perfect if Jet was fast


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## Windjammer

Bratva said:


> Behtreen, have you seen french low flyby videos ? Video would've been perfect if Jet was fast



Those are done for the cameras or pleasing the troopers, this was part of an exercise.

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## airmarshal

Windjammer said:


> Those are done for the cameras or pleasing the troopers, this was part of an exercise.



But then whats the point in flying so low? How would it help the air force or the ground forces? Isnt it a dangerous manoevure?


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## Taygibay

Bratva said:


> Behtreen, have you seen french low flyby videos ? Video would've been perfect if Jet was fast



Actually, going that slow is incredibly dangerous …

@airmarshal 's first question can't be answered because information is withheld ( quite normal )
and the second gives - not sure save training for everything - but the last one is a resounding yes!

That's a jetfighter ( an anvil with an attached rocket ) not a Cessna, for Pete's sake!

Good evening all, Tay.

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## Windjammer

airmarshal said:


> But then whats the point in flying so low? How would it help the air force or the ground forces? Isnt it a dangerous manoevure?


I'm sure you have heard of the term, flying below the radar, these particular aircraft are maritime strike Mirages armed with a sea skimming Exocet ASM. For all we know, it could have been practising a simulated launch.

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## airmarshal

Windjammer said:


> I'm sure you have heard of the term, flying below the radar, these particular aircraft are maritime strike Mirages armed with a sea skimming Exocet ASM. For all we know, it could have been practising a simulated launch.



I know PA3 are Exocet carrying platforms but then my question again is if its possible at all to launch an Exocet from such a low level?


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## Donatello

airmarshal said:


> I know PA3 are Exocet carrying platforms but then my question again is if its possible at all to launch an Exocet from such a low level?



Yes it is, but you better have the lock or a good chance the missile while trying to reach a steady state of flight will end up in hitting the water.

Usually, you would acquire the target on the radar, and cue that info to the missile. Exocets are obsolete anyway, limited range.

C803/805 is some interesting stuff.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> Yes it is, but you better have the lock or a good chance the missile while trying to reach a steady state of flight will end up in hitting the water.
> 
> Usually, you would acquire the target on the radar, and cue that info to the missile. Exocets are obsolete anyway, limited range.
> 
> C803/805 is some interesting stuff.


If the target is acquired and surprise is achieved. Is is not possible to gain height before firing.


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## airmarshal

Donatello said:


> Yes it is, but you better have the lock or a good chance the missile while trying to reach a steady state of flight will end up in hitting the water.
> 
> Usually, you would acquire the target on the radar, and cue that info to the missile. Exocets are obsolete anyway, limited range.
> 
> C803/805 is some interesting stuff.



Isnt it that Mirage PA3 capability is itself obsolete? there are very powerful and long range ship borne radars that can easily detect planes taking off from enemy bases. So that element of surprise or springing a surprise is already gone! May be a topic for another thread.


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## Donatello

airmarshal said:


> Isnt it that Mirage PA3 capability is itself obsolete? there are very powerful and long range ship borne radars that can easily detect planes taking off from enemy bases. So that element of surprise or springing a surprise is already gone! May be a topic for another thread.



Yes pretty much, that is why they are being superseded by JF-17, the KLJ7 can spot a ship sized target from much further away and launch the C803 from much further away. So as the air defense umbrella improves, so does the anti-ship one.


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## SQ8

Bratva said:


> Behtreen, have you seen french low flyby videos ? Video would've been perfect if Jet was fast



It may have been perfect.. but as such flying the jet slow and fast is easy. Flying a jet, and more importantly a delta winged mirage that is not very good at keeping aloft at low speeds takes balls of chronomite. 
What is interesting to note is that the aircraft has actually settled into a bit of ground effect and is staying up much easier.


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## TaimiKhan

Windjammer said:


> Low level flypast by a PAF Mirage-V PA-3.
> 
> 
> Link
> 
> @Oscar @Horus @fatman17



Seems Photoshopped / animated. The Mirage seems to have been inserted. Sound is different. And other stuff too does not match with the sequences.

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## S.U.R.B.

The low level flypast doesn't look real, must agree with Taimikhan.
Audio is suspicious, if you have seen them fly, you can pick that up with one glimpse.
One chance could be that they might have used a high speed camera to capture it, then slowing the speed down,can mess with the audio, so a background audio was introduced later on.The reason i'm saying that is because the approaching speed and the speed when it passes by the soldier looks even slower than they landing speed of the Mirages.(considering that the soldier is not standing a km away ,but near the path of flight)
Still fishy with the movement of that soldier from right to left, looks a bit unnatural.
But on the other hand the shadow is perfect, not only reflects the movement of the AC,but also matches the geographic variations.

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## Windjammer

TaimiKhan said:


> Seems Photoshopped / animated. The Mirage seems to have been inserted. Sound is different. And other stuff too does not match with the sequences.


The footage was most probably captured by a mobile phone, that's why sound is not effective, however watch the Mirage shadow on the ground and how the observer follows it as it flies past him.


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## FNFAL

pardon me, but i honestly feel for that speed, the jet would have to maintain a high AOA

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## S.U.R.B.

FNFAL said:


> pardon me, but i honestly feel for that speed, the jet would have to maintain a high AOA



Any feasible explanation with that AOA will be using a high speed camera to capture it.Then
slowing the captured video down, as it's visible.
The graphics are not that bad, hence my assumption.

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## DANGER-ZONE

The hell guys !
Its a real video and processed at slow motion rate, that's why engine sound is different and heavy and Mirage seems to be flying super slow. Otherwise its well known fact that M-V can't fly that low at slow speed.


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## FNFAL

S.U.R.B. said:


> Any feasible explanation with that AOA will be using a high speed camera to capture it.Then
> slowing the captured video down, as it's visible.
> The graphics are not that bad, hence my assumption.



But the soldier's panning movement appeared kind of seamless...like 24 FPS 
Also at the start of the vid, you can some human figures with an apc like object on the ground. They seemed a bit too small ...or maybe im getting analytical without a cause


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## TaimiKhan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> The hell guys !
> Its a real video and processed at slow motion rate, that's why engine sound is different and heavy and Mirage seems to be flying super slow. Otherwise its well known fact that M-V can't fly that low at slow speed.


 
The mirage is flying low and the desert scenery in the background is playing at higher rate when compared to the mirage flying by.


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## Agni-5

Windjammer said:


> Low level flypast by a PAF Mirage-V PA-3.
> 
> 
> Link
> 
> @Oscar @Horus @fatman17


looks fake


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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> Low level flypast by a PAF Mirage-V PA-3.
> 
> 
> Link
> 
> @Oscar @Horus @fatman17














Now AOA which is roughly equivalent to* 10 or 11 degree *which I believe is normal for such low level fly pass (correct me If I am wrong)
















In my* opinion *video is 110% original .....

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## Windjammer

As the text attached to the video explains that the Mirage flies between two cliffs (Mounds), which is quite apparent and also note how the officer filming with his mobile, follows the flight path.

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## DANGER-ZONE

I am 100% sure that the video is real, in fact PAF should produce 50 - 60 such examples each month along with F-16, JF-17 and F-7PG videos. Also, will China and Middle East countries be producing such videos with Pakistan's collaboration.



P.S. This video is too real to be FAKE ... Good to see such videos coming from PAF.


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## DANGER-ZONE

RA'AD loaded on MIrage-3 Rose-1.
Picture taken before most recent RA'AD test.

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## Dazzler

What's wrong with you guys, its so obvious that its an animation. What a bad job!

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## Sinnerman108

Dazzler said:


> What's wrong with you guys, its so obvious that its an animation. What a bad job!



Toh @HRK ka kya banay ga ?

Anyway, the giveaway was light, and the speed and the lack of any trails


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## HRK

Sinnerman108 said:


> Toh @HRK ka kya banay ga ?
> 
> Anyway, the giveaway was light, and the speed and the lack of any trails



What ...


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## khanasifm

Just curious if RADD would fit under JF-17 center line station or just under wing due to ground clearance and landing gears


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## DANGER-ZONE

khanasifm said:


> Just curious if RADD would fit under JF-17 center line station or just under wing due to ground clearance and landing gears



I dont think that JFT could carry Ra'ad on centerline station because of limited space under belly.
Mirage is a tall bird with long landing gears thay allow it to carry large weapons, recc. Ppds and bulkey fuel tanks on centerline station.
While JFT dont even carry same size fuel tank on centerline hardpoint as it carries under its wings.


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## aftab_s81

@*DANGER-ZONE*
The height of JFT is 4.72m while that of Mirage is 4.5m. So JFT is taller than Mirage.


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## nangyale

There is a difference between height of the aircraft and ground clearance. 
You will be better off comparing the ground clearance of both fighters if you are interested in what weapons can be carried on the centreline station.



aftab_s81 said:


> @*DANGER-ZONE*
> The height of JFT is 4.72m while that of Mirage is 4.5m. So JFT is taller than Mirage.

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## DANGER-ZONE

aftab_s81 said:


> @*DANGER-ZONE*
> The height of JFT is 4.72m while that of Mirage is 4.5m. So JFT is taller than Mirage.





nangyale said:


> There is a difference between height of the aircraft and ground clearance.
> You will be better off comparing the ground clearance of both fighters if you are interested in what weapons can be carried on the centreline station.



Ground Clearance .... Exactly.












Getting any idea ?

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## aftab_s81

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Ground Clearance .... Exactly.
> 
> Getting any idea ?



Yes this is very much clear now. But I wonder the aircraft designers did not anticipate this while designing?

Mirage is much taller than JFT.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

aftab_s81 said:


> Yes this is very much clear now. But I wonder the aircraft designers did not anticipate this while designing?
> 
> Mirage is much taller than JFT.


JF-17 had to save costs and weight hence the landing gear are much smaller. This is the reason ground clearance is not as much as the mirage.


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## salman-1

It will carry RAAD but under its wings. When integrated which is surely on the cards

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## niaz

No matter how capable PAF Mirages may be, let us not overlook the fact that the design is based on 60’s technology. Even Mirage 2000, which first flew in 1983, is now more than 30 years old. Despite its mid-life update to 2000-5 standard; French air force intends to retire its Mirage fleet starting 2020.

Without sounding unpatriotic, fact is that PAF is forced to utilize Mirage III & V versions primarily due to the lack of a better alternative. Sooner we replace these with more modern aircrafts like MLU F-16’s or JF-17’s, the better for the country as well as for the pilots who fly these 50 year old birds.

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## denel

niaz said:


> No matter how capable PAF Mirages may be, let us not overlook the fact that the design is based on 60’s technology. Even Mirage 2000, which first flew in 1983, is now more than 30 years old. Despite its mid-life update to 2000-5 standard; French air force intends to retire its Mirage fleet starting 2020.
> 
> Without sounding unpatriotic, fact is that PAF is forced to utilize Mirage III & V versions primarily due to the lack of a better alternative. Sooner we replace these with more modern aircrafts like MLU F-16’s or JF-17’s, the better for the country as well as for the pilots who fly these 50 year old birds.


alternative is to do what the french did - built mirage IV for a dedicated role. evolve the jf-17 into a subvariant or even procure alternative delivery platform or improvise the raad to be more light weight to be mounted on the wings. it is still early in overall lifecycle/evolution. it has come this far with many decades ahead to go.


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## Blue Warrior

Being an ex delta rider, i can say that they need to be replaced with thunder, but where is the money to do this. we have to utilise every last piece of mettle we get.

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## Jammer

Despite Missile Integration, Nuke Role Unlikely for Pakistanâs JF-17 | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## fatman17

Jammer said:


> Despite Missile Integration, Nuke Role Unlikely for Pakistanâs JF-17 | Defense News | defensenews.com



That's for the vipers and rose Mirages. However for the future one never knows.

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## bilalshaw

Mirages are definitely retiring in 2018 because of their airframe hours.
Probably that's why PAC is coming up with a twin-seater variant of JF-17 Thunder.


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## ziaulislam

any idea whether the mirages will go first of the F-7s and the PGs


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## Jammer

fatman17 said:


> That's for the vipers and rose Mirages. However for the future one never knows.


I think from the very start of the article it is very clear that they are working on the the integration of Raad on the JF17, that's what I am trying to point out. This should clarify, the height .etc. issues being brought up as a concern for a the RAAD not structurally suitable for the JF17.


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## IrbiS

ziaulislam said:


> any idea whether the mirages will go first of the F-7s and the PGs




7Ps are hopefully 1st in the line of fire


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## fatman17

IrbiS said:


> 7Ps are hopefully 1st in the line of fire



4th JFT Sqn will be based at Masroor replacing the maritime strike Mirage Sqn

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> 4th JFT Sqn will be based at Masroor replacing the maritime strike Mirage Sqn


The 4th JFT Sqn would also be the First Block 2

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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The 4th JFT Sqn would also be the First Block 2



Yes indeed capable of firing the C802 and AKG400.


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## Windjammer



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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> 4th JFT Sqn will be based at Masroor replacing the maritime strike Mirage Sqn




Very true janab. But as naval support role, see it separately from other sqns. After this Ps will go 1st not the Roses


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## fatman17

IrbiS said:


> Very true janab. But as naval support role, see it separately from other sqns. After this Ps will go 1st not the Roses



Thanks janab

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Yes indeed capable of firing the C802 and AKG400.


Sir Fatman what PAF gonna do with french antiship missles ?r they gonna retire or integrated with JF 17s ?


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## Ray_of_Hope

Please change the title of the thread.Its funny cuz mirage is junk and it has no commendable capabilities.Also its taking the lives of our precious pilots.


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## khanasifm



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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Yes indeed capable of firing the C802 and AKG400.



What happens to the Exocets? Are JF-17s mated for that or not needed, since i believe C802, C705 and AKG400 are superior in every aspect?


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## ziaulislam

Donatello said:


> What happens to the Exocets? Are JF-17s mated for that or not needed, since i believe C802, C705 and AKG400 are superior in every aspect?


i wonder about RAAD for thunder.
when are the rose expected to go, 2020? or 2025? i think the rose will be the last or may be the PGs?


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## Basel

Donatello said:


> What happens to the Exocets? Are JF-17s mated for that or not needed, since i believe C802, C705 and AKG400 are superior in every aspect?



If JF-17s can't deploy those missiles then they can be transferred to PN for their Sea Kings which can fire those.















Maritime security: Navy holds live firepower exercise - The Express Tribune


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Sir Fatman what PAF gonna do with french antiship missles ?r they gonna retire or integrated with JF 17s ?



The seaking helos will fire those

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> What happens to the Exocets? Are JF-17s mated for that or not needed, since i believe C802, C705 and AKG400 are superior in every aspect?



Seaking helos will fire them


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## princefaisal

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 232987


Can this Mirage Nose accommodate the KLJ7 radar in it.


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## IrbiS

princefaisal said:


> Can this Mirage Nose accommodate the KLJ7 radar in it.



Not needed in 1st place

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## princefaisal

Raad is for Mirage aircraft while C705KD missile with 170 km range is dedicated for JF-17.


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## ice_man

@fatman17 Do we have any plans to change our tactical strike platform the Mirage III/V anytime soon? Even though this platform has served Pakistan really well.

However, it is high time that they should eventually be retired and replaced.

@MastanKhan I am sure he would agree that we should have had at least an order in place for a new platform YESTERDAY. we are already late.

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## umair86

Mirages will soldier on for another decade or so


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## araz

umair86 said:


> Mirages will soldier on for another decade or so


Nearly all M3/5s will be retired by 2018--20. The airframes have lived out their lives and scavanging from other planes is being used to keep the fleet air worthy. This cant go on for long.
Similarly for the poster who asked about KLJ7 in M3 nose cone you cannot justify the expense on the above basis. There are many other things one needs to consider like engine power the capacity of the on board computers the wiring for the plane. You cant just shove a radar into a nose cone and expect it to work. Their would be a lot of work required and the money and the justification is just not there.

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## ice_man

araz said:


> Nearly all M3/5s will be retired by 2018--20. The airframes have lived out their lives and scavanging from other planes is being used to keep the fleet air worthy. This cant go on for long.
> Similarly for the poster who asked about KLJ7 in M3 nose cone you cannot justify the expense on the above basis. There are many other things one needs to consider like engine power the capacity of the on board computers the wiring for the plane. You cant just shove a radar into a nose cone and expect it to work. Their would be a lot of work required and the money and the justification is just not there.



but if we wish to induct a new platform in let's say 2020 shouldn't we be placing orders like yesterday?

JF-17 is definitely not going to fill the role of a tactical strike fighter.


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## araz

ice_man said:


> but if we wish to induct a new platform in let's say 2020 shouldn't we be placing orders like yesterday?
> 
> JF-17 is definitely not going to fill the role of a tactical strike fighter.


PAF has its own hands full with planning testing and integrating JFT in progressively improved blocks. This activity will take it into 2020. There will be no new platform in this period. F16s if they come about will be inducted as we have a need for upto 110-120 fighters. The roles of M3/5 will be taken over by F16s and AESA equipped JFTs. PAF will most likely wait for 2023--25 to induct J31 equivalent which should have matured as a platform by the time. This is how I read it. Obviously if things take a turn for the worst then interim measures maybe required but otherwise it will be a wait for J31.

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## fatman17

The ROSE Mirages will be the last ones to retire. So far there is no news on replacements for the two tactical / night strike squadrons. My hunch is that the PAF will wait until the block III is inducted to make any changes.

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## umair86

May be in 2020-25 time frame Mirages will retired.


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## ice_man

fatman17 said:


> The ROSE Mirages will be the last ones to retire. So far there is no news on replacements for the two tactical / night strike squadrons. My hunch is that the PAF will wait until the block III is inducted to make any changes.



will the air frames last almost another 7 years? that will be the key issue.

I remember around 3 years ago discussion on the Mirage 2000s used as a stop gap solution from Qatar. Seems like that is totally out of the equation now.


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## Windjammer



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## Quwa

If other fighter ideas fail to materialize (e.g Su-35) or are too limited in available munitions (e.g. F-16s without JASSM, HARM, JSOW, etc), the PAF might try developing an enlarged JF-17. If there were a need for a Block-4, this would be it.


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## araz

Mark Sien said:


> If other fighter ideas fail to materialize (e.g Su-35) or are too limited in available munitions (e.g. F-16s without JASSM, HARM, JSOW, etc), the PAF might try developing an enlarged JF-17. If there were a need for a Block-4, this would be it.


On what basis do you venture this opinion. Just interested in knowing why you are thinking along those lines. Response would be appreciated. Would this be ala Block 52 from Block 15?


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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> If other fighter ideas fail to materialize (e.g Su-35) or are too limited in available munitions (e.g. F-16s without JASSM, HARM, JSOW, etc), the PAF might try developing an enlarged JF-17. If there were a need for a Block-4, this would be it.



Pakistan should seriously evaluate the J11D from China as a alternate to the SU35. They should consider replacing the Chinese power plant with a Russian engine.

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## fatman17

J11D with the AL31F engine


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## Cool_Soldier

J11D is really good platform specially for Pakistan Navy if affordable for us.We must try to get at least one Squadron of these to tackle with Mig 29 UB.


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> J11D with the AL31F engine



Sir ji, thats a Chinese engine. AL-31F has different nozzle. This one has the WS-10 engine.


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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir ji, thats a Chinese engine. AL-31F has different nozzle. This one has the WS-10 engine.



yes I know. that's my point replace WS10 with AL31F.


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> yes I know. that's my point replace WS10 with AL31F.



Provided Russia agrees to that  

Since Russian warplane sales are drying up or not as much as they would have liked, as India is now also going western way, i think Russia would be more interested in finding new customers for its planes. If they allow engines for Chinese jets, they loose their opportunity for sale, provided they do really wanna sell us something.


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## fatman17

TaimiKhan said:


> Provided Russia agrees to that
> 
> Since Russian warplane sales are drying up or not as much as they would have liked, as India is now also going western way, i think Russia would be more interested in finding new customers for its planes. If they allow engines for Chinese jets, they loose their opportunity for sale, provided they do really wanna sell us something.



I don't think they will object to selling engines to Pakistan as precedent already established with RD93.


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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> I don't think they will object to selling engines to Pakistan as precedent already established with RD93.



May be with J-10 they don't object, but who knows whats their stance if its a J-11.

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## fatman17

A further improved variant of *J-11B* in the same class of American F/A-18E has been under development at 601/SAC as *J-11D*. Compared to *J-11B*, it features a new AESA radar and a digital FBW system which are similar to those of *J-16*. *J-11D* can also carry new generation of AAMs including PL-10 and PL-15. Two extra hardpoints were added to the inner wings. As the result up to 12 AAMs can be carried. More composite material was used in its wing and tail sections in order to reduce weight. It might also have a RAM coating to reduce the RCS but this has not been confirmed. The AESA radar was speculated to have been developed by the 14th Institute and was tested onboard a *J-11B* radar testbed in 2014. The first *J-11D* prototype (D1101) took off successfully from the SAC airfield on April 29, 2015, powered by two WS-10A engines. The new *J-15* style IRST/LR appears to have been offset to the starboard side of the windshield, suggesting an IFR probe was installed on the port side, an arrangement similar to that of *J-15*. There was a rumor that the engines could be the upgraded WS-10 with a max thrust of 14t but this has yet to be confirmed. It is expected the earlier *J-11B*s could be upgraded to the D standard (mainly the AESA radar due to different structural designs) in the future.
_- Last Updated 9/21/15



_



TaimiKhan said:


> May be with J-10 they don't object, but who knows whats their stance if its a J-11.


very surprised if they don't.


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## Donatello

TaimiKhan said:


> May be with J-10 they don't object, but who knows whats their stance if its a J-11.



China has been going crazy with the flanker series, so they are developing the homegrown engines......sooner than later they will be available.


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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> China has been going crazy with the flanker series, so they are developing the homegrown engines......sooner than later they will be available.


but question is at that time we need it ? j-10 is good example


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## Windjammer




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## Quwa

araz said:


> On what basis do you venture this opinion. Just interested in knowing why you are thinking along those lines. Response would be appreciated. Would this be ala Block 52 from Block 15?


I think it'd be part necessity, part feasibility and part necessity on the part of the PAF. While the sudden influx of surplus F-16C/Ds (with LESP and CCIP-like upgrades) can affordably and effectively meet the medium weight multirole fighter needs of the PAF, it seems the PAF itself is being a bit conservative with its approach to the U.S. While such F-16s would make great air defence assets, their strike capabilities wouldn't be at their maximum potential unless U.S releases JASSM, JSOW, etc. On the other hand, PAF can equip the JF-17 at will, but the maximum desired effect in any one engagement may not come about due to the JF-17's limited range and payload. Importing something like J-10B or J-31 may be too cost prohibitive if done in heavy numbets (suitable for a backbone fleet in the future).

5-7 years from now the PAF can take one of two options. It could pair up with an external vendor and develop an entirely new successor to the JF-17 and ensure, from the ground up, that this next gen fighter improves upon the JF-17 in every relevant respect. Or it can take what it has on JF-17 and develop a larger and lighter weight fighter capable of comfortably carrying more without greatly degrading performance. The 'JF-17 II' could be the next backbone fighter, but it'll depend on what route PAF takes. Personally, I'd rather they design a new jet from scratch


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## araz

Mark Sien said:


> I think it'd be part necessity, part feasibility and part necessity on the part of the PAF. While the sudden influx of surplus F-16C/Ds (with LESP and CCIP-like upgrades) can affordably and effectively meet the medium weight multirole fighter needs of the PAF, it seems the PAF itself is being a bit conservative with its approach to the U.S. While such F-16s would make great air defence assets, their strike capabilities wouldn't be at their maximum potential unless U.S releases JASSM, JSOW, etc. On the other hand, PAF can equip the JF-17 at will, but the maximum desired effect in any one engagement may not come about due to the JF-17's limited range and payload. Importing something like J-10B or J-31 may be too cost prohibitive if done in heavy numbets (suitable for a backbone fleet in the future).
> 
> 5-7 years from now the PAF can take one of two options. It could pair up with an external vendor and develop an entirely new successor to the JF-17 and ensure, from the ground up, that this next gen fighter improves upon the JF-17 in every relevant respect. Or it can take what it has on JF-17 and develop a larger and lighter weight fighter capable of comfortably carrying more without greatly degrading performance. The 'JF-17 II' could be the next backbone fighter, but it'll depend on what route PAF takes. Personally, I'd rather they design a new jet from scratch


Hi.
Thank you for your response. You are talking about 5-7 years from now. That will take us into 2020-22. I am assuming that the Bl. 3 would have reached its design brief and about to be jnducted in 2018-19. We have recently seen the influence of LRAAMs on our thinking from some bits of news that have come out just today. Now to me this is the game changer rather than the JFT. Extending my thought process I would thin that rather than having longer range fighters one would need longer ranged armaments and a stronger radar with engine modifications or failing that guidance from a secondary source. For me the cost effective option is a stronger engine higher strength/ranged AESA radar coupled with LRAAMs. It would save up on the cost of redesigning a platform when it works well and our capability for redesigning is rudimentary if at best. So in my humble opinion JFT would not have too many design modifications but will progressively work towards a longer ranged radar a higher thrust engine of similar size to maintain the radarand longer ranged weapons. As capabilities increase you may find that we might not need as many platforms as now so higher numbers maynot be maintained and technology as it becomes more complicated will also become very expensive. In those circumstances we will need to makntain our fleet in an economical manner. Lastly 2020-22 is the time we would want to take a jump on the next generation platforms so redesigning what would eventually be a 4th generation platform when we do not have experience of the next generation will not be such a good idea.
We are only just bouncing ideas so feel free to present your point of view and we can discuss further.
Regards
A

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## Quwa

araz said:


> Hi.
> Thank you for your response. You are talking about 5-7 years from now. That will take us into 2020-22. I am assuming that the Bl. 3 would have reached its design brief and about to be jnducted in 2018-19. We have recently seen the influence of LRAAMs on our thinking from some bits of news that have come out just today. Now to me this is the game changer rather than the JFT. Extending my thought process I would thin that rather than having longer range fighters one would need longer ranged armaments and a stronger radar with engine modifications or failing that guidance from a secondary source. For me the cost effective option is a stronger engine higher strength/ranged AESA radar coupled with LRAAMs. It would save up on the cost of redesigning a platform when it works well and our capability for redesigning is rudimentary if at best. So in my humble opinion JFT would not have too many design modifications but will progressively work towards a longer ranged radar a higher thrust engine of similar size to maintain the radarand longer ranged weapons. As capabilities increase you may find that we might not need as many platforms as now so higher numbers maynot be maintained and technology as it becomes more complicated will also become very expensive. In those circumstances we will need to makntain our fleet in an economical manner. Lastly 2020-22 is the time we would want to take a jump on the next generation platforms so redesigning what would eventually be a 4th generation platform when we do not have experience of the next generation will not be such a good idea.
> We are only just bouncing ideas so feel free to present your point of view and we can discuss further.
> Regards
> A


The issue of next generation platforms is a reason why I think the PAF may just decide to invest in a new program to succeed the JF-17. With Block-3 and possibly additional electronic upgrades, JF-17 can certainly hold the fort down (especially if J-31 is in the pipeline before 2025) for some time. 

In terms of a next fighter program, a single engine design that is roughly in the same category as KFX would be an interesting and possible route. It could be the future workhorse and supplement J-31.


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## Max Pain

Windjammer said:


>


That was unarguably the best start to that Air show,
all of a sudden It scared the shit outta everybody at F-9 park.


----------



## araz

Mark Sien said:


> The issue of next generation platforms is a reason why I think the PAF may just decide to invest in a new program to succeed the JF-17. With Block-3 and possibly additional electronic upgrades, JF-17 can certainly hold the fort down (especially if J-31 is in the pipeline before 2025) for some time.
> 
> In terms of a next fighter program, a single engine design that is roughly in the same category as KFX would be an interesting and possible route. It could be the future workhorse and supplement J-31.


I have no doubt that the assembly line will not remain vacant post block 3 JFT. The real question is what will PAF invest in next. You have to understand that I still have serious doubts about PAFs capability to go solo after having just "participated" in the designing of JFT. The next generation of platforms are a whole different ball game and will bring with them problems which PAF is not familiar with. With 2 different platforms in the process the Chinese will possibly be unwilling to participate in a third one and the Turkish /South Koreans maybe willing but the cost might be unsavoury for the PAF. So the likelihood is PAF will go for a Chinese platform like J31 which CATIC may develop from hand me down tech transfer from the J20 project thereby saving time and money. This in my view might be more to PAFs taste rather than a newer platcorm full of its own inherent risks.
A

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mark Sien said:


> I think it'd be part necessity, part feasibility and part necessity on the part of the PAF. While the sudden influx of surplus F-16C/Ds (with LESP and CCIP-like upgrades) can affordably and effectively meet the medium weight multirole fighter needs of the PAF, it seems the PAF itself is being a bit conservative with its approach to the U.S. While such F-16s would make great air defence assets, their strike capabilities wouldn't be at their maximum potential unless U.S releases JASSM, JSOW, etc. On the other hand, PAF can equip the JF-17 at will, but the maximum desired effect in any one engagement may not come about due to the JF-17's limited range and payload. Importing something like J-10B or J-31 may be too cost prohibitive if done in heavy numbets (suitable for a backbone fleet in the future).
> 
> 5-7 years from now the PAF can take one of two options. It could pair up with an external vendor and develop an entirely new successor to the JF-17 and ensure, from the ground up, that this next gen fighter improves upon the JF-17 in every relevant respect. Or it can take what it has on JF-17 and develop a larger and lighter weight fighter capable of comfortably carrying more without greatly degrading performance. The 'JF-17 II' could be the next backbone fighter, but it'll depend on what route PAF takes. Personally, I'd rather they design a new jet from scratch



Do not think PAF would go after more F-16's because the delivery would take them 5-7 years hence by that time the F-16's would have ex hosted the life of MLU. Now the F-16-blk 50/52 would also be requiring MLU. PAF would be interested in 5th Gen fighter by that time. 

If PAF is offered F-35's then PAF might consider them as to replace some but not in very large numbers. However if the TFX is mature enough then PAF would choose it over the F-35's. 

As far as Chinese J-31's or some other is concerned would also make it in PAF as per the policy of PAF it tends to rely on various sources rather than just one. Russia might also offer the PAK-FA or PAK-MA by that time, however would that deal would be availed is to be seen once PAF has inducted Russian Aircraft.

A stealth single engine aircraft would really be interesting because that aircraft would give PAF a low cost second line of defense... Which would this be is going to be finalized once conformation is received if such an option is available form China, Russia, USA, Sweden or a Pakistani aircraft. 

JF-17 would not be enhanced to a stealth aircraft but a completely new aircraft would be manufactured so the cost would really be taken into consideration. 

To spice up the competition may be the Turkish single engine design might be considered but that too is too early to say if that could be possibility or not.

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## Aamir Hussain

I think the biggest boost to the JFT performance would be a more powerful engine and use of weight saving composites. This will ensure substantial changes in the block III and beyond. 

All of the above will result in increased mission load out, space for further avionics upgrades and an enhanced flight envelope. This will get the a/c to where it was designed to be a low cost, light weight potent fighting platform. 

Right now the a/c is going thru its evolution and it has some ways to go before it out does, in all aspects, the planes it is replacing in the fleet today.

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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> The issue of next generation platforms is a reason why I think the PAF may just decide to invest in a new program to succeed the JF-17. With Block-3 and possibly additional electronic upgrades, JF-17 can certainly hold the fort down (especially if J-31 is in the pipeline before 2025) for some time.
> 
> In terms of a next fighter program, a single engine design that is roughly in the same category as KFX would be an interesting and possible route. It could be the future workhorse and supplement J-31.



Interesting discussion. Based on the time frame we are talking which is medium term, l would let the JFT evolve as per the plans for it but I would start negotiations with China /Russia on acquiring the J11D with Russian AL31F engine and TOT from China for the airframe radar and systems. This platform can then be inducted in sizeable numbers (75) to be the deep strike and maritime option backed by the F16 in the ADF role and JFT as the work horse of the airforce. 
75 J11D 
100 F16 
200 JTF 
The supply chain people will be very happy indeed.

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## fatman17

J11D


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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> J11D



Yes J-11D with AESA is better option than Su-35's Irbis PESA, plus we get the common weapons package shared with JF-17. Besides, Russians will surely give us degraded equipment.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Interesting discussion. Based on the time frame we are talking which is medium term, l would let the JFT evolve as per the plans for it but I would start negotiations with China /Russia on acquiring the J11D with Russian AL31F engine and TOT from China for the airframe radar and systems. This platform can then be inducted in sizeable numbers (75) to be the deep strike and maritime option backed by the F16 in the ADF role and JFT as the work horse of the airforce.
> 75 J11D
> 100 F16
> 200 JTF
> The supply chain people will be very happy indeed.


Sir.
I think there are problems with supplying a J11 series to PAF. Unless the chinese engines mature and the Russians have no objections to the sale. In the current environment both seem unlikely and hence the talk for SU35. It will have to be customised with Chinese origin software to ensure compatibility with our current systems. This maybe the main stumbling block for the deal. Either case it is early days still and a lot needs to go on before maturity. This is almost a case of counting the chickens before the eggs have hatched. However, I do have to say that the announcement of the deal so early in the process has surprised me somewhat and I still have my doubts about it inspite of PAF varifying that the approach has been made.
A


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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> Interesting discussion. Based on the time frame we are talking which is medium term, l would let the JFT evolve as per the plans for it but I would start negotiations with China /Russia on acquiring the J11D with Russian AL31F engine and TOT from China for the airframe radar and systems. This platform can then be inducted in sizeable numbers (75) to be the deep strike and maritime option backed by the F16 in the ADF role and JFT as the work horse of the airforce.
> 75 J11D
> 100 F16
> 200 JTF
> The supply chain people will be very happy indeed.



Sir,

China was considering the SU-35 because of the new engine not because of the design. For this they calculated that the would require to purchase around 70 aircraft, unfortunately China was able to modify the existing J-11's and also develop the J-16's which use similar modification that are available to the SU-35. The Chinese also got to develop an AESA radar for these aircraft which the Russian are unable to. 

The Chinese now intend to cancel the deal for which an MOU was signed... Pakistan was under pressure from the MMRCA deal and for that it was willing to purchase the J-10's but the limitation were on the structural design and engines. The Chinese offered PAF the J-10B which is an upgraded design but still the engine remained an issue. 

Durring the US withdrawal from Afghanistan and OBL raid the Americans were not interested in supplying PAF with additional F-16's, hence once again the J-10 interest increased. MMRCA also went in the favor of Rafale making Russia to react. The issue was Russia came under US and Western sanctions though they were not international as the Russian used their Veto. Hence they reacted to the areas which were historically their during Crimea and Georgia. US and EU reacted to these by taking out other areas where Russia could not react quickly i.e Libya and Syria. 

On Pakistan's side US was unwilling to sell the F-16 blk 50-52 and also refused to give surplus stock because they feared that PAF would develop into a force that would be really very powerful against the Indians. The Indians would increase the numbers of their Rafales and the money that could be potentially be divided between US and European countries would only go in the favor of France. Hence we can see that the Indians have reduced the numbers of Rafales and are looking to buy some other aircraft by issuing the "Made in India" slogan. The Indians also came in the limelight in Britain hence their reaction was against the EFT when the IAF issued that the SU-30 MKI's are far better then the EFT. This opened the doors for Saab Gripen and Textron Scorpion, USA also is going to sell the engines for the Tejas so a big win for the US. 

Now back to Pakistan and the requirements of PAF and PN. 
Pakistan Navy wanted an air arm independent from the PAF so that they can better protect from the Indian Naval threats. For this they went and selected an aircraft but a problem rose which was the progression and also the integration with PAF. PAF suggested that JF-17's should be bought by PN and it was approved by the PM. Things changed when Pakistan was able to enhance the continental shelf and increase her EEZ. It was realized the PAF Mirrage III and V are not enough so they require a more potent system. F-18's were looked upon as well as the Chinese J-11's series but the issue on availability came up with both these aircraft. The Chinese were going to cancel the SU-35's and those were now offered by the Russian. Would these come as a complete Russian aircraft or will they be with Chinese goodies is to be seen once the conformation of a contract are available. This way the Chinese would get the Engine technology as well as Pakistan would get the air power it requires and Russia the money it desperately requires. 

A win win situation for all concerned.


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir.
> I think there are problems with supplying a J11 seies to PAF. Unless the chinese engines mature and the Russians have no objections to the sale. In the current environment both seem unlikely annd hence the talk for SU35. It will have to be customised with Chinese origin software to ensure compatibility with our current systems. This maybe the main stumbling block for the deal. Either case it is early days still and a lot needs to go on before maturity. This is almost a case of counting the chickens before the eggs have hatched. Jowever I do have to say that the announcement of the deal so early in the process has surprised me somewhat and I still have my doubts about it inspite of PAF varifying that the approach has been made.
> A



if they have no problems supplying the RD93 then there should be in principle no issue to replicate the JFT deal on the J11D. it makes huge sense esp. for a financially strapped country. J11D with AL31F and AESA is a poor mans SU35

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> if they have no problems supplying the RD93 then there should be in principle no issue to replicate the JFT deal on the J11D. it makes huge sense esp. for a financially strapped country. J11D with AL31F and AESA is a poor mans SU35



What if the poor man CAN get su35?

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> What if the poor man CAN get su35?



I guess we have to wait and see. shan't we.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> if they have no problems supplying the RD93 then there should be in principle no issue to replicate the JFT deal on the J11D. it makes huge sense esp. for a financially strapped country. J11D with AL31F and AESA is a poor mans SU35


But they have an ongoing dispute with the Chinese over the right to the SU27 family. When it comes to the options of either supplying engines or supplying the base platform I am sure the russians would want to export SU35. However I fully agree that whatever the platform chosen will have input from the Chinese to integrate the local avionics and weaponry to retain commonality with the rest of the PAF fleet if at all we see one.
A


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## nomi007

where are turkish gift



Northrop T-38 Talon


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## fatman17

araz said:


> But they have an ongoing dispute with the Chinese over the right to the SU27 family. When it comes to the options of either supplying engines or supplying the base platform I am sure the russians would want to export SU35. However I fully agree that whatever the platform chosen will have input from the Chinese to integrate the local avionics and weaponry to retain commonality with the rest of the PAF fleet if at all we see one.
> A



I think the dispute has been settled. Russia cannot lose its largest weapons buyer.

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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> I think the dispute has been settled. Russia cannot lose its largest weapons buyer.


But I think PAF might not being in a state to acquire SU-35s in any way.



Windjammer said:


>



All the Mirage III/Vs should be in Balochistan and KPK-FATA and F-7PG, JF-17s and F-16s should be in Sindh-Punjab. I am sure that as USA is releasing the 14 remaining F-16s and there is a good possibility that PAF will going to acquire more from Jordan, Egypt and Norway. The fleet of F-16 Block-15 MLU-3MLU-4 may reach to 150 + 50 F-16 Block-52+ (hopes that PAF will order another 32 more this year or near future)



Windjammer said:


>


I think this should be sold to BAF and induct more used F-16s from Jordan-Egypt-Norway-USAF



Basel said:


> If JF-17s can't deploy those missiles then they can be transferred to PN for their Sea Kings which can fire those.
> 
> View attachment 232998
> 
> 
> View attachment 232999
> 
> View attachment 233001
> 
> 
> Maritime security: Navy holds live firepower exercise - The Express Tribune



PNAF should use their old Missiles and Torpedoes against Pirates out there in sea coming from India and Africa.



HRK said:


> View attachment 223237
> 
> View attachment 223240
> 
> 
> Now AOA which is roughly equivalent to* 10 or 11 degree *which I believe is normal for such low level fly pass (correct me If I am wrong)
> View attachment 223243
> 
> View attachment 223244
> View attachment 223245
> 
> View attachment 223246
> 
> 
> In my* opinion *video is 110% original .....


That's why I use to say send Mirages in Balochistan-FATA-KPK.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> I think the dispute has been settled. Russia cannot lose its largest weapons buyer.


Sir.
What are the chances of getting AL117S for these fighters. I understand that the Chinese would have to acquire them and then sell them on to us but the engine itself minus its 3 D TVC is a much more matured engine and would give the Chinese platforms a level of maturity which would be desirable.
A


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## Quwa

araz said:


> I have no doubt that the assembly line will not remain vacant post block 3 JFT. The real question is what will PAF invest in next. You have to understand that I still have serious doubts about PAFs capability to go solo after having just "participated" in the designing of JFT. The next generation of platforms are a whole different ball game and will bring with them problems which PAF is not familiar with. With 2 different platforms in the process the Chinese will possibly be unwilling to participate in a third one and the Turkish /South Koreans maybe willing but the cost might be unsavoury for the PAF. So the likelihood is PAF will go for a Chinese platform like J31 which CATIC may develop from hand me down tech transfer from the J20 project thereby saving time and money. This in my view might be more to PAFs taste rather than a newer platcorm full of its own inherent risks.
> A


I agree. The JF-17 program will be around for a while and I am sure we will see some major iterations down the line, even in the era of 5th generation aircraft. Electronics will continue to advance at rapid rates, more so than airframe and engine technology, and there is no reason why the JF-17 wouldn't be able to take advantage of those shifts. The PAF may also experiment further with the JF-17 airframe, e.g. build a lighter and larger frame and use it as a basis for either a new lightweight fighter to replace the current JF-17 iteration (e.g. A/B to C/D), or, use it for specialized purposes, such as a dedicated ECM/EW or strike platform.

That said, I do think there is a chance we may see a locally developed next generation platform. I don't think the PAF would go at it alone, I think it'll be dependent on significant foreign assistance of some form, be it R&D or even industrial development, but it can happen. The rationale behind this route instead of a new JF-17 iteration may be a play to think really long-term and get ahead of the curb, but financing and the reality of risk will be impediments. I do wonder if CAC and SAC have other 5th gen designs, they must have toyed with lightweight single engine ideas. Remember, the JF-17 was one such program back in the day, it was the PAF that picked it up upon an offer from CAC.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do not think PAF would go after more F-16's because the delivery would take them 5-7 years hence by that time the F-16's would have ex hosted the life of MLU. Now the F-16-blk 50/52 would also be requiring MLU. PAF would be interested in 5th Gen fighter by that time.
> 
> If PAF is offered F-35's then PAF might consider them as to replace some but not in very large numbers. However if the TFX is mature enough then PAF would choose it over the F-35's.
> 
> As far as Chinese J-31's or some other is concerned would also make it in PAF as per the policy of PAF it tends to rely on various sources rather than just one. Russia might also offer the PAK-FA or PAK-MA by that time, however would that deal would be availed is to be seen once PAF has inducted Russian Aircraft.
> 
> A stealth single engine aircraft would really be interesting because that aircraft would give PAF a low cost second line of defense... Which would this be is going to be finalized once conformation is received if such an option is available form China, Russia, USA, Sweden or a Pakistani aircraft.
> 
> JF-17 would not be enhanced to a stealth aircraft but a completely new aircraft would be manufactured so the cost would really be taken into consideration.
> 
> To spice up the competition may be the Turkish single engine design might be considered but that too is too early to say if that could be possibility or not.


I think PAF will pursue F-16s, new and upgraded surplus frames. The F-16 is an effective medium weight platform, and the PAF can obviously absorb A/B and C/D airframes. It would also be a financially affordable route. I don't know what is stopping them, but I think politics in D.C are an obstacle.

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## gangsta_rap

The initial posts from years back claim that Mir III Grifo M3 radars are copies of the APG-68 pulse dopplers (Which are used on Block 52+ and MLU F-16s !!!)

Is that really the case? Pretty cool if so. I guess we can say that ROSE mirages are on par with 4th generation fighters then!


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## CHI RULES

GIANTsasquatch said:


> The initial posts from years back claim that Mir III Grifo M3 radars are copies of the APG-68 pulse dopplers (Which are used on Block 52+ and MLU F-16s !!!)
> 
> Is that really the case? Pretty cool if so. I guess we can say that ROSE mirages are on par with 4th generation fighters then!




Sorry but it is not only the Radar which makes a jet lethal. The mirages have past their life span and their systems are manual. They can't fly in adverse conditions further they are not agile enough, having no EW capabilities.
The specs of Grifo M3 are no ware near to APG68 neither claimed by PAF nor Italians.

May be they are only good for bombing TTP terrorists.

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## umair86

mirage has the all weather capablity even when it didn't had the ROSE upgrade. It was designed as an all weather high altitude interceptor it lacks the fly by wire controls and agilty as compared to jf-17 and f-16 but who needs to be agile when you are a bomb truck instead of fighter and have agile missiles to defend yourself.


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## Ray_of_Hope

umair86 said:


> mirage has the all weather capablity even when it didn't had the ROSE upgrade. It was designed as an all weather high altitude interceptor it lacks the fly by wire controls and agilty as compared to jf-17 and f-16 but who needs to be agile when you are a bomb truck instead of fighter and have agile missiles to defend yourself.


Before ROSE upgrade,Mirage 5 lacked the capability of night bombing.
As of now all marages we have are ROSE upgraded but they are too old to be in service now.Thats why we saw many Mirage crashes this year.
To be humble Mirages are not very capable aircrafts.Against IAF,they can counter the MIg 21`s in air to air role. and the jags in air to ground role.But they should be retired as early as possible cuz of their age.


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## black-hawk_101

I think PAF should start to acquire some used F-16s about 45 from Jordan.


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## Ray_of_Hope

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PAF should start to acquire some used F-16s about 45 from Jordan.


I dont think so.F16 is a great jet but now its coming near the end of its time (especially the A/B ) models.We should not buy the olders models and only the new models should be bought.F16 is now turning out to be our new Mirages.Just as what we did with mirages now we are doing the same with vipers.And i dont think thats the right way to go.

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## aliyusuf

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PAF should start to acquire some used F-16s about 45 from Jordan.



We should be cognizant of the fact that whatever we are saving today by getting older A/B air frames, we will be paying an even greater price when the need will arise to replace them. Which will be sooner than later comparatively speaking vis-à-vis acquiring newer built fighters like for instance (J-10B).



GIANTsasquatch said:


> The initial posts from years back claim that Mir III Grifo M3 radars are copies of the APG-68 pulse dopplers (Which are used on Block 52+ and MLU F-16s !!!)



Actually no. The Grifo-M3 is roughly comparable to the first version of APG-68. The latter had a 25% range increase, additional modes, faster signal processing etc.compared to than the APG-66 of the Block-15 that the PAF had in service back in the 90s.

The Grifo-M3's performance is somewhere between those of the APG-66 and APG-68(V)1.

The APG-68(V)9 that equips our Block-52+ and MLU-ed Block-15 AMs/BMs are much more capable.

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## Mutakalim

black-hawk_101 said:


> All the Mirage III/Vs should be in Balochistan and KPK-FATA and F-7PG, JF-17s and F-16s should be in Sindh-Punjab


And the reason behind that?

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## CHI RULES

umair86 said:


> mirage has the all weather capablity even when it didn't had the ROSE upgrade. It was designed as an all weather high altitude interceptor it lacks the fly by wire controls and agilty as compared to jf-17 and f-16 but who needs to be agile when you are a bomb truck instead of fighter and have agile missiles to defend yourself.


latest Mirage III crash in Blochistan was due to adverse weather conditions even if it was capable for adverse conditions not so now. Mirages have manual conrols and lack EW suit, further without having BVR capabilities. They only have capability to bomb Terrorists not good for deep penetration missions in enemy territory. This may be checked by any pro if available here. The Jaguars on the other hand are being highly updated further they act in combination with other fighters. PAF don't have such luxury.


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## silent hawk

CHI RULES said:


> latest Mirage III crash in Blochistan was due to adverse weather conditions even if it was capable for adverse conditions not so now. Mirages have manual conrols and lack EW suit, further without having BVR capabilities. They only have capability to bomb Terrorists not good for deep penetration missions in enemy territory. This may be checked by any pro if available here. The Jaguars on the other hand are being highly updated further they act in combination with other fighters. PAF don't have such luxury.



Mirages have very committed pilots.


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## black-hawk_101

How many Mirages are in PAF?

Any Possibility of converting Older Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs into spares?

So, that these spares can be used to support Rose Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs in PAF fleet which are about 80 in numbers?


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## blain2

CHI RULES said:


> latest Mirage III crash in Blochistan was due to adverse weather conditions even if it was capable for adverse conditions not so now. Mirages have manual conrols and lack EW suit, further without having BVR capabilities. They only have capability to bomb Terrorists not good for deep penetration missions in enemy territory. This may be checked by any pro if available here. The Jaguars on the other hand are being highly updated further they act in combination with other fighters. PAF don't have such luxury.


I guess it depends on which Mirages you are talking about. Rose I is BVR capable. Rose II/III are capable of precision attack/interdiction at night time which means, within a reasonable range, Mirages can conduct interdiction missions and make easy their escape by flying low to the ground. For as long as Mirages are in service, they can pose problems for any defending air force by virtue of their speed and fairly decent capabilities to deploy PGMs. The challenge with the Mirages is not necessarily around their lack of capability in the current threat environment, rather the spares. Its still a great strike platform.

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## CHI RULES

blain2 said:


> I guess it depends on which Mirages you are talking about. Rose I is BVR capable. Rose II/III are capable of precision attack/interdiction at night time which means, within a reasonable range, Mirages can conduct interdiction missions and make easy their escape by flying low to the ground. For as long as Mirages are in service, they can pose problems for any defending air force by virtue of their speed and fairly decent capabilities to deploy PGMs. The challenge with the Mirages is not necessarily around their lack of capability in the current threat environment, rather the spares. Its still a great strike platform.



Dear Sir, I have quoted already please get advice of expert, There Radar range is merely not more than 50Km for aerial targets and hardly if I am not wrong up to 150KM for frigate size ships, we may assume that may be agaisnt stealthy Indian frigates it may be even less than that. Further against Mig 29Ks having capable EW suit,IRST and other defensive offensive gadgets our Mirrages don't have chance to survive. Flying low were old tactics now risk shall be more as new EU/Israeli Radars along with SAMS forming great combo with 4.5th gen Jets our modernized 4th gen Jets may prove to be great deal for these Mirrages no matter with rose upgrade or not. They are not suited for Air to Air combat independently.

*We require double engine Air superiority Jets having required agility, speed and High altitude service ceiling i.e more than 62,000ft. ( Off course withgen EW suite, Irst, AESA and some etealth features) *

Mirages not equipped with BVR missiles.

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## TOPGUN

blain2 said:


> I guess it depends on which Mirages you are talking about. Rose I is BVR capable. Rose II/III are capable of precision attack/interdiction at night time which means, within a reasonable range, Mirages can conduct interdiction missions and make easy their escape by flying low to the ground. For as long as Mirages are in service, they can pose problems for any defending air force by virtue of their speed and fairly decent capabilities to deploy PGMs. The challenge with the Mirages is not necessarily around their lack of capability in the current threat environment, rather the spares. Its still a great strike platform.




Very well put thanks for clearing that up for many ... this is all very true and should be known thanks.


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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=852247271559753

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## milen

I am often to blogging and i also truly appreciate about his posts.


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## Zarbe Momin

At moment there are some jet engins very small with very low thrust and 3d printets are also making plastic jet engins with low thrust so......pakistan should make short range antiradiation cruise missels......they loiter in the area and during jet strike as enemy radar goes on.....then Bang.


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## Arron Bert

How many Mirages are there now in PAF?

What about this idea that converting older non-Rose upgraded Mirages in to spares. And use their spares to support the current flying rose upgraded Mirage IIIs/Vs.


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## denel

blain2 said:


> I guess it depends on which Mirages you are talking about. Rose I is BVR capable. Rose II/III are capable of precision attack/interdiction at night time which means, within a reasonable range, Mirages can conduct interdiction missions and make easy their escape by flying low to the ground. For as long as Mirages are in service, they can pose problems for any defending air force by virtue of their speed and fairly decent capabilities to deploy PGMs. The challenge with the Mirages is not necessarily around their lack of capability in the current threat environment, rather the spares. Its still a great strike platform.


True. i wonder if consideration was given to use RD series engine. while at atlas, we had managed to get mig-29 engine into f1C for POC as super F1C.


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## Zarbe Momin

denel said:


> True. i wonder if consideration was given to use RD series engine. while at atlas, we had managed to get mig-29 engine into f1C for POC as super F1C.


This is not bad if airframe life allows.....then Jf.17 engins to install also on Mirages.....may be also some other part of JF.17 to use on Mirages......I dont know may be same Radar that is on JF.17....TO INSTALL ON MIRAGES.


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## Quwa

The PAF should consider replacing the Mirage ROSE with FC-31. For the strike role I think the FC-31 has some serious potential, not least due to the fact that it has an internal storage bay and low-RCS design. The timing (2024-onwards) works out well too, and the intended role (of replacing the ROSE) doesn't interfere with JF-17.

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## barbarosa

pac should build new mirages in home if it can do because mirage is a good aircraft of the present. pac should build new aircraft against mirage 2000 from mirage!!!.


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## denel

barbarosa said:


> pac should build new mirages in home if it can do because mirage is a good aircraft of the present. pac should build new aircraft against mirage 2000 from mirage!!!.


Mirage 3 is fairly old and not worth pursuing; in comparison, jf-17 design is better and far better optimised for overall performance.


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## CHI RULES

It is sad enough that sensible members considering Mirage III and Mirage V as capable fighters. Yes they may prove to be capable against Taliban or we are having any third world country as our adversary with no or weaker air defense but unfortunately our adversary is India so far having capable land and naval air defense. Further having mostly 4+ gen fighter jets with upgraded capabilities. 
The fact is so far our only F16 Mlued and Block 50/52 are capable to challenge Su30s, meanwhile JF17s are capable to challenge Mig29s and other light fighters. Meanwhile so far we have only 76 F16s and up to perhaps 55-56 JF17s while IAF having 200+SU30's. Further expected to get Rafaels in next two years which will further add comlexity to situation.

Pak should increase pace of induction of both F16s and JF17s . Similarly AESA and IRST upgrades in JF17s should also be started on emergency basis.

Overhauls or repairs can't make fighter jets equal to newer jets, even if our Mirage with Rose III upgrades are BVR capable yet they are not armed with BVR missiles and less maneuverable, not having capable EW suites.

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## syed_yusuf

with 76 F-16 and ~70 JFT we are well set to stand upto any thing IAF has in its inventory

IAF mig29 and mirage 2000 are of older generation till upgraded and they are not done yet. Once IAF upgrade mig-29 and mirage 2000 in numbers they will be as capable a Su-30 (from threat perspective). By then (minimum) PAF will have more than 84 F-16 and close to 150-200 JFT. more than enough to provide deterrence against IAF.


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## CHI RULES

syed_yusuf said:


> with 76 F-16 and ~70 JFT we are well set to stand upto any thing IAF has in its inventory
> 
> IAF mig29 and mirage 2000 are of older generation till upgraded and they are not done yet. Once IAF upgrade mig-29 and mirage 2000 in numbers they will be as capable a Su-30 (from threat perspective). By then (minimum) PAF will have more than 84 F-16 and close to 150-200 JFT. more than enough to provide deterrence against IAF.


What abt Rafaels coming in near future?


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## Manticore

Zona Militar | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Argentina retires Dassault Mirage fleet

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## syed_yusuf

only if IAF afford to pay for Rafael 
Rafael is not a game changer

only 5th gen fighter will


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## MastanKhan

All members------

A mirage fighter crashed awhile ago----its pilot died in the crash while flying the aircraft away from populated area----.

In his memory---his father and few friends rebuilt a railway station in sind---opened up a new hospital and a school----.

This was in dawn newspaper I believe---I posted a link over here as well----but can't find it----.

Please assist---thank you.

@Manticore @Windjammer @HRK etc etc etc

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## barbarosa

when PAF bought its 1st mirage 3 in 1968, mirage 3 life was about 12 years. mirage 5 was included in PAF in 1973 which age was 5 years.f 16 was included in PAF in 1983 in the age of 9th years.Now in 2015 PAF has no any stupid air craft except JF 17.how shall we face the war of 21st century.


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## syed_yusuf

barbarosa said:


> when PAF bought its 1st mirage 3 in 1968, mirage 3 life was about 12 years. mirage 5 was included in PAF in 1973 which age was 5 years.f 16 was included in PAF in 1983 in the age of 9th years.Now in 2015 PAF has no any stupid air craft except JF 17.how shall we face the war of 21st century.



please restate- your sentences are not making any sense

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## Quwa

syed_yusuf said:


> please restate- your sentences are not making any sense


He's saying PAF doesn't have new planes, therefore it sucks.


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## barbarosa

syed_yusuf said:


> please restate- your sentences are not making any sense


i would like to say that when these air crafts were inducted in paf, at that time they were in young age now they are old.


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## IrbiS

*ROSE with Two dumb bombs under belly:



*

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## war&peace

For the force which is still stuck F7, a suggestion to retire this old timer would be a straight forward heresy. I don't know when will they use a bit of mind and upgrade the fleet


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## Penguin

Were PAF Mirage III/V ever re-engined, or was this considered (+if yes, why wasn't it done)? E.g. with Atar09K-50 (Mirage F1, Atlas Cheetah) or with the Klimov SMR-95 (RD-33 variant), which South Africa tried on their Atlas Cheetah, and which is a close relative to the RD-93 powering JF-17?

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## Quwa

Penguin said:


> Were PAF Mirage III/V ever re-engined, or was this considered (+if yes, why wasn't it done)? E.g. with Atar09K-50 (Mirage F1, Atlas Cheetah) or with the Klimov SMR-95 (RD-33 variant), which South Africa tried on their Atlas Cheetah, and which is a close relative to the RD-93 powering JF-17?


No I think the engines were only refurbished or repaired at the Mirage Rebuild Factory. If there were a way to cost effectively revamp the Mirages with airframe life restoration, new turbofan engines and updated onboard electronics and radar, I'm in.

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## nangyale

Saqr said:


> No I think the engines were only refurbished or repaired at the Mirage Rebuild Factory. If there were a way to cost effectively revamp the Mirages with airframe life restoration, new turbofan engines and updated onboard electronics and radar, I'm in.


And that will cost almost the same as a new build JFT.
Hence the investment in JFTs.

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## JamD

MastanKhan said:


> All members------
> 
> A mirage fighter crashed awhile ago----its pilot died in the crash while flying the aircraft away from populated area----.
> 
> In his memory---his father and few friends rebuilt a railway station in sind---opened up a new hospital and a school----.
> 
> This was in dawn newspaper I believe---I posted a link over here as well----but can't find it----.
> 
> Please assist---thank you.
> 
> @Manticore @Windjammer @HRK etc etc etc



Oh are you talking about Rashidabad?
Meet the Team at RMWO
The pilot's name is Flt. Lt. Rashid Ahmed Khan. His father Air Commodore Shabbir Ahmed Khan lived in my complex. The president of the board of trustees Air Commodore Muhammad Ali Shah is also relative. What information do you need? Do you wish to donate?

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## MastanKhan

JamD said:


> Oh are you talking about Rashidabad?
> Meet the Team at RMWO
> The pilot's name is Flt. Lt. Rashid Ahmed Khan. His father Air Commodore Shabbir Ahmed Khan lived in my complex. The president of the board of trustees Air Commodore Muhammad Ali Shah is also relative. What information do you need? Do you wish to donate?



Hi,

Thank you kindly for the post and yes to the last question.


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## JamD

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you kindly for the post and yes to the last question.


*For donors based outside Pakistan, you can donate in the following currencies using these bank details:*
USD:

Standard Chartered Bank, NY
Swift code: SCBLUS33, A/C# 3582020234001
Further Swift code of Al Baraka: AIINPKKA
Beneficiary Rashid Memorial Welfare Organisation
A/C: 0218100520024 (Hill Park Branch)


I think from what I have gathered from the forum you are in the US.


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## ArsalanKhan21

war&peace said:


> For the force which is still stuck F7, a suggestion to retire this old timer would be a straight forward heresy. I don't know when will they use a bit of mind and upgrade the fleet



Pakistan is building/assembling JF-17 at snails pace. These fighters are better than F-7 and Mirages and should replace them. Only starting in 2016 will the production of JF-17 will increase from current 15 to reported 24.

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## Quwa

nangyale said:


> And that will cost almost the same as a new build JFT.
> Hence the investment in JFTs.


Yes, but to be honest the ideal replacement for the Mirage ROSE II/III would be the FC-31, in as far as strike capabilities go.


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## nangyale

Saqr said:


> Yes, but to be honest the ideal replacement for the Mirage ROSE II/III would be the FC-31, in as far as strike capabilities go.


Maybe yes for SEAD/DEAD missions, but for majority of roles that are currently performed by Mirages the replacement is JFT. 
Remember PAF developed it as a replacement for both F-7s and Mirages. Although it seems that the priority at the moment is to replace the F-7s eventually Mirages will be replaced by JFTs too. 
Mirages even with upgraded avionics and engine will remain a fatigued third gen airframe while with JFT you are getting a brand new fourth gen machine, with which you can mate any weapon that you can get your hands on.

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## muhammadali233

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Pakistan is building/assembling JF-17 at snails pace. These fighters are better than F-7 and Mirages and should replace them. Only starting in 2016 will the production of JF-17 will increase from current 15 to reported 24.


We just cant enrol 150 in an year just like you cant eat 10 rotis in 1 time no matter how hungry you are.
Snail pace is good as JFT program is still in development phase any problems that are found can be eradicated for the other upcoming aircrafts,although i agree 15 is a little too low but compared to the production pace of the mighty carbon fibre tejas it is 15x higher LOL ........

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## denel

Penguin said:


> Were PAF Mirage III/V ever re-engined, or was this considered (+if yes, why wasn't it done)? E.g. with Atar09K-50 (Mirage F1, Atlas Cheetah) or with the Klimov SMR-95 (RD-33 variant), which South Africa tried on their Atlas Cheetah, and which is a close relative to the RD-93 powering JF-17?


indeed i had asked this exact question earlier; i was at atlas when this was done. But right now, i think there is no incentive to upgrade as these aircraft will be retired once jf-17 program is fullfilled.
the cheetah was a superb beauty. A friend was working on the lavi jv as well; if that had come to fruitfulness, F16 would have had a good competition.

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## Penguin

denel said:


> indeed i had asked this exact question earlier; i was at atlas when this was done. But right now, i think there is no incentive to upgrade as these aircraft will be retired once jf-17 program is fullfilled.
> the cheetah was a superb beauty. A friend was working on the lavi jv as well; if that had come to fruitfulness, F16 would have had a good competition.



Snecma Atar






SMR-95





Kfir C12 (J-79)

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## ghazi52

.............................................
Little Dragon M.M Alam, Wg. Cdr Mervyn L. Middlecoat and other PAF Falcons in 1968






.........

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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

CHI RULES said:


> What abt Rafaels coming in near future?



Nope 
More F16s 
More JF17s 
Possibly J31

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## Windjammer

ghazi52 said:


> .............................................
> Little Dragon M.M Alam, Wg. Cdr Mervyn L. Middlecoat and other PAF Falcons in 1968
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .........



I see M M Alam, Farooq Umar and Hakimullaha .... but certainly not M.Middlecoat.

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## nomi007

Pakistan AF Mirage ROSE upgraded fighter with Air Refueling Probe.




Did you know ?? These Mirage fighters have completed their airframe life but still they are active in service with PAF and doing very good job than Chinese made F-7Ps and that's why Pakistan is replacing F-7Ps first with JF 17 Thunder fighters.Believe it or not PAF Mirage fighters are capable for carrying Nuclear cruise missiles , Anti Runway bombs , Anti-Surface bombs ,Anti-Ship missiles and include some short range Air to Air missiles.

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## Sulman Badshah

PAF Mirage-III formation from No.7 Sqn and No.8 Sqn firing AIM-9L/P Sidewinder missiles during Inter-Squadron Armament Competition'2007.

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## fatman17

Sulman Badshah said:


> PAF Mirage-III formation from No.7 Sqn and No.8 Sqn firing AIM-9L/P Sidewinder missiles during Inter-Squadron Armament Competition'2007.
> 
> View attachment 293991
> 
> View attachment 293990



Something went wrong in the 2nd pic


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## Sulman Badshah

fatman17 said:


> Something went wrong in the 2nd pic


looks like practice round fired on opponent


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## Windjammer



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## khanasifm

never seen multiple bomb pylon on mirage 3/5 before

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## Shabi1

fatman17 said:


> Something went wrong in the 2nd pic


Mirage can carry a rocket booster, maybe its that.





LANGKASA (Space Eagle): MIRAGE IIIS INTERCEPTOR OF SWISS AIR FORCE WITH SEPR 844 ROCKET BOOSTER
*MIRAGE IIIS INTERCEPTOR OF SWISS AIR FORCE WITH SEPR 844 ROCKET BOOSTER*

Mirage IIIS was specially built Mirages III fighter jet for Swiss Air Force. Most of the fighter-interceptors were equipped with SEPR 844 rocket booster installed at lower rear end of their fuselages. The booster was use to rapidly climb up to 24km from sea level, and a climb up to 26km from sea level had been recorded by French Air Force. Swiss Air Force had flown these rocket boosted Mirage IIISs from 1969 to 1990.

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## fatman17

Mirage III / Mirage 5

Although both the F-6 and the F-86E had a reasonable capabilities in the close support role, yet there was a need to regain the medium range day/night strike power which had been shared by the F-86F and the B-57 untill 1967. There was also the lingering gap in night air defence. To fulfil these requirements, the PAF turned to French Mirage fighter-bomber series.

With a combined total of 180 Mirage IIIs and Mirage 5s in service in 1998, the Pakistan Air Force is the world's second largest Mirage operator - second only to the French Armee d'l'Air (French Air Force). The Mirage entered service with the PAF in 1968. Mirage IIIs are high-speed, all weather, delta wing, long-range fighter-bombers while Mirage Vs are ground attack aircraft derived from the Mirage IIIs, which itself can also be employed in the interceptor role. The first order comprised of 18 Mirage III EPs, 13 Mirage III RPs, 3 Mirage III DPs plus 28 Mirage 5 PAs, 4 Mirage 5 DPAs, 30 Mirage 5 PA2/3s. In 1990, PAF obtained 43 used Mirage III Os and 7 Mirage III ODs from Australia and then purchased 40 reconditioned Mirage III Es from France in 1996 pushing the total to 180 aircraft. The Mirage equips No. 5, No. 7, No. 8, No. 22 (OCU) and a CCS squadron.

One of the most elegant aircraft ever flown, the Mirage III has a large delta wing and circular intakes with shock cones. A rectangular recess under the aft fuselage can contain either a fuel tank or a rocket engine. It has improved Doppler navigation system in fairing under front fuselage, gyro gunsight and nose packing containing Omera 40 and 33 cameras. The Mirage 5 was a fair-weather attack development of the Mirage III. It can also be flown as an interceptor. The reduction of electronic equipment allows more fuel and reduces cost.

The project "ROSE" (Retrofit of Strike Element") was set up to reclaim as many airplanes as possible and to upgrade them with latest avionics. Originally it was thought that only 20 - 25 airframes could be made operational but eventually, more than 40 airframes were refurbuished and put back in service. The avionics upgrade included fitting of HUD, HOTAS controls, RWR's chaff / flare and most important of all the retrofit of FIAR Griffo Radar. This radar is the Italian copy of APG-68 and has full look down shoot down capability.

ROSE: Retrofit Of Strike Element: Is actually the major (Avionics + Radar) upgrade that the PAF Mirage fleet underwent during the 90s.ROSE-I: This included upgraded cockpit instrumentation, Grifo-M Radar and weapons system reconfiguration. (BVR-able).ROSE-II: This included the Sagem implemented MAESTRO Nav/Attack System. (Strike).ROSE-III: This included the Sagem MAESTRO Nav/Attack and FLIR. (Precision Strike). Mirage ROSE-III can carry out surgical strike missions using long-range glide bombs.Project ROSE at MRF is a special Project, which is supported by Air Headquarters. In financial year 2003-04, Project ROSE was tasked by Air Headquarters to upgrade Avionics of Mirage-V EF aircraft. Rose-III modified 1st serial aircraft was displayed at Paris Air Show from 11 - 19 June, 2005. The participation in such a world renowned forum has given MRF an opportunity to effectively market its products and services in the international aviation industry. In Pakistan the new fighter received the designation JF-17 (Joint Fighter-17) and is planned to replace the F-7, Mirage III/5 and Q-5.

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## Paksanity

Mirage V fully loaded with 14 bombs. (Note that Mirage can attach bombs to its fuel tanks. A 2 in 1 solution!)






Blast from the past....PAF Mirage on bombing run.

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## Paksanity

French sometimes come up with weird but fascinating solutions. Here they designed a fuel tank+rockets, fuel tank+4 bombs and even a (proposed but not implemented most likely) fuel tank+rockets+bombs all in one solution for Mirage aircraft.






Here are some real pictures











PAF technician installing on Mirage aircraft

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## Desertfalcon

If one had to pick two fighters that symbolized the Cold War from the 1960's to the 1980's, the Mirage III/V vs. the Mig-21/J-7 would be it. PAF if pretty unique in having such a long history of operating both. They are both beautiful aircraft as well.

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## fatman17

Desertfalcon said:


> If one had to pick two fighters that symbolized the Cold War from the 1960's to the 1980's, the Mirage III/V vs. the Mig-21/J-7 would be it. PAF if pretty unique in having such a long history of operating both. They are both beautiful aircraft as well.



Classic

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## Paksanity

Saifullah said:


> How the hell Mirage is able to take this much weight and JF can't ?



West is far ahead. There is reason PAF turns to F-16s time and again. JF-17 is a very capable aircraft which is partly because of PAF set parameters to be met. PAF also has the ownership of future development so JFT will be just fine for our requirements. It can take more weight compared to Mirage, technically. As far your question, you will understand by this example.

Mirage came in 1967 and still hasn't run out of life. F-7 came in 1990 but needs to be replaced first by JFT. Get the idea? As I said West is far far ahead.

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## untitled

Desertfalcon said:


> If one had to pick two fighters that symbolized the Cold War from the 1960's to the 1980's, the Mirage III/V vs. the Mig-21/J-7 would be it. PAF if pretty unique in having such a long history of operating both. They are both beautiful aircraft as well.


Not sure why you chose the mirage 3/5 over the Phantom?


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## Desertfalcon

persona_non_grata said:


> Not sure why you chose the mirage 3/5 over the Phantom?


I love the F-4 but it was a bit ahead of it's time and took awhile to become a truly great fighter. It lacked a gun until the "E" model. The naval models never had a gun, which remained a real handicap. One could _learn_ to dogfight in it successfully, but it was not much of one. The Mirage by comparison, although not intended as a dogfighter, was more adaptable in that role. The F-4 also suffered from practically useless Aim-7 missiles in their early versions and engines that were less than ideally responsive to the throttle and which smoked badly. It's more like a testament to the ruggedness and improvability of the F-4 that she became a good fighter aircraft, despite all her faults.

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## Taygibay

On-Topic, the near pristine quality of the aircrafts in the images from Nomi and Windjammer on the previous
page are supplemental testimony to the care provided by PAC and PAF to these jets as is the simple fact
that Pakistan is the last user of the types.
That's medal worthy : smile, you're on the podium! 


_Somewhat less on_topic :_




GuLBiL PRabhas said:


> Because MiRages R StiLL SeRviciNg n New Jets Like RafaLe n Tejas has gaiN a Lot fRom MiRage DesigNs



BMRRSSRNNJLRLTNLRMRDN?

Since there are way too many numbered alphabet systems to sift through cuz I got a life ...
either I lack the linguistic skills to infer the vowels in a consonant validated language I ignore
or this is the most convoluted associative social or political formation acronymic name I've ever seen!

If it's the former, would you mind decrypting that for me for better comprehension ...
and if it's the latter may I suggest something shorter as say GOP, UN or ISIL?

Good day to you and all, Tay.

P.S. I just noticed the same characteristic in your pseudo so if the problem stems from
real life bugs in your keyboard or neural system, please ignore the light sarcasm above.

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## Paksanity

Desertfalcon said:


> I love the F-4 but it was a bit ahead of it's time and took awhile to become a truly great fighter. It lacked a gun until the "E" model. The naval models never had a gun, which remained a real handicap. One could _learn_ to dogfight in it successfully, but it was not much of one. The Mirage by comparison, although not intended as a dogfighter, was more adaptable in that role. The F-4 also suffered from practically useless Aim-7 missiles in their early versions and engines that were less than ideally responsive to the throttle and which smoked badly. It's more like a testament to the ruggedness and improvability of the F-4 that she became a good fighter aircraft, despite all her faults.



Why century fighters did not find much love? Deltas were all the rage back then but still US AF/N isn't so poetic about them. Wonder why?


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## Desertfalcon

Paksanity said:


> Why century fighters did not find much love? Deltas were all the rage back then but still US AF/N isn't so poetic about them. Wonder why?


Well we did have the F-102/106 but that truly was a pure interceptor. I think the full delta wing put some limitations on how the Mirage III/V was used as well. Especially in low-level attack missions where that delta made for a rough ride but the overall strength of the design, it's simplicity, it's stability as a gun platform, made the Mirage an excellent all around fighter.


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## Manticore

GuLBiL PRabhas said:


> Because MiRages R StiLL SeRviciNg n New Jets Like RafaLe n Tejas has gaiN a Lot fRom MiRage DesigNs


Stop using slangs and stop using caps
This is a warning. You will be banned from threads in the future


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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1645672189031535


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Engineers have done well with the Mirage platform

Continuous upgrades and addition of weapons system
Loaded with goodies


















Upgraded cockpit with modern monitors











Some lovely missiles

R550 (France)






Excocet Anti Ship





And of course (Made in Pakistan Raad)

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## Desertfalcon

Great picture of a Chilean Air Force Mirage V-Pantera.

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## Manticore

Desertfalcon said:


> Great picture of a Chilean Air Force Mirage V-Pantera.


Belgian Mirage 5





Australians

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## Paksanity

Manticore said:


> Belgian Mirage 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australians




Lovely idea by Belgians.

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## ali_raza

Paksanity said:


> Lovely idea by Belgians.


36 total


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## khanasifm

DAGGER 7 Modified ?? looks like PAF picked up spares parts from Argentina / IAI as well??

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## Inception-06

khanasifm said:


> DAGGER 7 Modified ?? looks like PAF picked up spares parts from Argentina / IAI as well??
> 
> 
> View attachment 306050
> 
> 
> View attachment 306051




*Argentina to retire Mirage fleet*




19 AUGUST, 2015

BY: BETH STEVENSON

LONDON


Argentina is reportedly planning to retire its air force's mixed fleet of Dassault Mirage fighters in November, as budget constraints force the government to make cuts to its inventory.


The air force’s fleet consists of eight Mirage IIIs, four Mirage 5s and four Mirage 5-derived Israel Aerospace Industries Neshers, Flightglobal’s Fleets Analyzer database shows. Now in our hands ?


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## Av8er

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Pakistan is building/assembling JF-17 at snails pace. These fighters are better than F-7 and Mirages and should replace them. Only starting in 2016 will the production of JF-17 will increase from current 15 to reported 24.


With due respect, fighter aircraft are not exactly rotis you can make at a tandoor. Resources including funds, manpower and facilities are all constraints. Scaling up aircraft production take planning and resources.


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## greeneagle

These mirages served a lot for Pakistan but know it's time to Give them complete rest

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## MastanKhan

Av8er said:


> With due respect, fighter aircraft are not exactly rotis you can make at a tandoor. Resources including funds, manpower and facilities are all constraints. Scaling up aircraft production take planning and resources.



Sir,

Please don't take it personal---you have been quiet since 2007---could you please keep it that way---I mean to say---you have zero contribution so far----. I know someone will get mad at me for writing this----.

We already have too posters many with sob stories and bags full of excuses for the air force.

Have to ever heard the saying--' hit the iron when it is hot '---or ' a stitch in time saves nine '----' save now for a rainy day ( means buy now to get ready for war later)---' avail the opportunity to its maximum potential at the soonest '---' if you get the chance---take it and run with the wind behind your back '---

' what you have been looking at now maybe gone tomorrow ( I missed a beautiful Tie at Nordstrom one time )---' what is available to you now may not be available tomorrow '---' don't let the problems of today stop you form doing what is needed for today---because tomorrow will bring its own NEW problems '----' and last but not the least

" excuse is like an ar-se hole---and everybody got one ".

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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Please don't take it personal---you have been quiet since 2007---could you please keep it that way---I mean to say---you have zero contribution so far----. I know someone will get mad at me for writing this----.
> 
> We already have too posters many with sob stories and bags full of excuses for the air force.
> 
> Have to ever heard the saying--' hit the iron when it is hot '---or ' a stitch in time saves nine '----' save now for a rainy day ( means buy now to get ready for war later)---' avail the opportunity to its maximum potential at the soonest '---' if you get the chance---take it and run with the wind behind your back '---
> 
> ' what you have been looking at now maybe gone tomorrow ( I missed a beautiful Tie at Nordstrom one time )---' what is available to you now may not be available tomorrow '---' don't let the problems of today stop you form doing what is needed for today---because tomorrow will bring its own NEW problems '----' and last but not the least
> 
> " excuse is like an ar-se hole---and everybody got one ".


Dear Sir,

Sorry to say most of your posts from past few days are only criticize PAF, instead of productive feedback regarding topics in discussion. I hope u shall return to your previous path of knowledgeable posts.

One may easily criticize PAF over a number points i.e not selecting Mirage 2000, not selecting Rafael, accepting F16s with tied hands etc. Big but comes here, as PAF officials are not solely responsible for previous errors solely and perhaps they attempted to grab opportunities but unable to do so due to inefficiency of previous Govts.

They are not fools to rebuild and use Mirage III/Vs after end of their service life and fighter pilots losing their lives from time to time. The funds problem is very much their if u have single blanket and two people sharing naturally both can;t be covered by it.

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## Av8er

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Please don't take it personal---you have been quiet since 2007---could you please keep it that way---I mean to say---you have zero contribution so far----. I know someone will get mad at me for writing this----.
> 
> We already have too posters many with sob stories and bags full of excuses for the air force.
> 
> Have to ever heard the saying--' hit the iron when it is hot '---or ' a stitch in time saves nine '----' save now for a rainy day ( means buy now to get ready for war later)---' avail the opportunity to its maximum potential at the soonest '---' if you get the chance---take it and run with the wind behind your back '---
> 
> ' what you have been looking at now maybe gone tomorrow ( I missed a beautiful Tie at Nordstrom one time )---' what is available to you now may not be available tomorrow '---' don't let the problems of today stop you form doing what is needed for today---because tomorrow will bring its own NEW problems '----' and last but not the least
> 
> " excuse is like an ar-se hole---and everybody got one ".


Sir
Why don't you take your advice about me keeping quiet and shove it where the sun don't shine! Every member on this forum has a right to express their views, so please don't tell me or anyone to stay quiet. I am rather familiar with you talking down to other members and insulting them quite frequently. You contributions are limited to insane rants about why PAF should have bought this and that aircraft and why they are traitors and how they should appoint you as chief procurement advisor to google and tell them what equipment they need!
Thanks but no thanks!
Regards

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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Dear Sir,
> 
> Sorry to say most of your posts from past few days are only criticize PAF, instead of productive feedback regarding topics in discussion. I hope u shall return to your previous path of knowledgeable posts.
> 
> One may easily criticize PAF over a number points i.e not selecting Mirage 2000, not selecting Rafael, accepting F16s with tied hands etc. Big but comes here, as PAF officials are not solely responsible for previous errors solely and perhaps they attempted to grab opportunities but unable to do so due to inefficiency of previous Govts.
> 
> They are not fools to rebuild and use Mirage III/Vs after end of their service life and fighter pilots losing their lives from time to time. The funds problem is very much their if u have single blanket and two people sharing naturally both can;t be covered by it.



Sir,

In any major weapons purchase---after yourself----time is the worst enemy---and specially for small countries like pakistan facing a larger enemy---.

I am not a critic---I have always posted my comments with directions and solutions---.

It is not only past few days---but for all the years.

Please read my posts from a year ago where I stated that Paf will not get the F16's---the love affair with pakistan has ended----.

How many of you ridiculed me----. I had also told you guys how to get the F16's---you should have gone for another make 2 years ago---the americans would have presented the F16 to you on a platter---but you thick heads don't register the tactics----.

Your brains could only whimper----' oh we will have to integrate a new machine '----. You guys never knew the term integration till I had brought it up some 10 years ago---and then guys had also fought with me on that for years.

If you thought the F16 BLK52 to be the nugget of gold---then you had to forego the traditional manner of procurement and make a strategic maneuvering---by getting the J10C's with Aesa---.

You could just have leased them---till you got your F16's---if that is what you wanted bad.

Rebuilding mirage 3 / 5 was nothing brilliant----if they had bought the M2ks' in the early 90/s---they would not have had this problem.

The rebuilt mirage are not even at par with the JF17 BLK1----. Paf would have been much better off with the mirage F1---that would have given them similar capability as the Jf17 some 20 plus years ago.





Av8er said:


> Sir
> Why don't you take your advice about me keeping quiet and shove it where the sun don't shine! Every member on this forum has a right to express their views, so please don't tell me or anyone to stay quiet. I am rather familiar with you talking down to other members and insulting them quite frequently. You contributions are limited to insane rants about why PAF should have bought this and that aircraft and why they are traitors and how they should appoint you as chief procurement advisor to google and tell them what equipment they need!
> Thanks but no thanks!
> Regards



Hi,

That suggestion has been to me before many a times---okay---so big deal.

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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> In any major weapons purchase---after yourself----time is the worst enemy---and specially for small countries like pakistan facing a larger enemy---.
> 
> I am not a critic---I have always posted my comments with directions and solutions---.
> 
> It is not only past few days---but for all the years.
> 
> Please read my posts from a year ago where I stated that Paf will not get the F16's---the love affair with pakistan has ended----.
> 
> How many of you ridiculed me----. I had also told you guys how to get the F16's---you should have gone for another make 2 years ago---the americans would have presented the F16 to you on a platter---but you thick heads don't register the tactics----.
> 
> Your brains could only whimper----' oh we will have to integrate a new machine '----. You guys never knew the term integration till I had brought it up some 10 years ago---and then guys had also fought with me on that for years.
> 
> If you thought the F16 BLK52 to be the nugget of gold---then you had to forego the traditional manner of procurement and make a strategic maneuvering---by getting the J10C's with Aesa---.
> 
> You could just have leased them---till you got your F16's---if that is what you wanted bad.
> 
> Rebuilding mirage 3 / 5 was nothing brilliant----if they had bought the M2ks' in the early 90/s---they would not have had this problem.
> 
> The rebuilt mirage are not even at par with the JF17 BLK1----. Paf would have been much better off with the mirage F1---that would have given them similar capability as the Jf17 some 20 plus years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> That suggestion has been to me before many a times---okay---so big deal.




thks sir,

Things u have pointed out are main causes of underdevelopment of Pak not PAF in particular. Now your post looks more positive and constructive that was my point.
I my self attached to financial sector and wastage of time/bottle necks are there in Pak.
May be as a nation we should call somebody like Deming or Juran to teach us total quality management which was and is key of success for Japan.

For the nation who can't produce a paper pin it is a big achievement to rebuild Mirages and manfacturing of JF17s.

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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

No 5 Sqn Mirage 71 war

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## Dazzler



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## Taygibay

Are those post-ROSE upgrades, Dazzler?

All the best, Tay.

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## Dazzler

Taygibay said:


> Are those post-ROSE upgrades, Dazzler?
> 
> All the best, Tay.



yes, these avionics belong to Project Rose.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 335407
> 
> View attachment 335408
> 
> View attachment 335409





Stuff done with the Mirage is certainly commendable , if the plane is in healthy situation (Engine/Parts)

Would be nice to see *Mirage (MLU)*
> New Radar
> New helmet based targeting
> New Enhanced Data Display


Out of curiosity , since Turkey has Software /Hardware for a plane which they made 100%
in Turkey , why can't we just bring those systems into Mirage ? 


Even we make the hardware parts now / software

Just take out all the hardware / old software and install new stuff 






For me Mirage would be still tremendous plane with new Radar/New Helmet based targeting module , and BVR weapons (Need hardware/software upgrade)​


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## Viper0011.

nomi007 said:


> Pakistan AF Mirage ROSE upgraded fighter with Air Refueling Probe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know ?? These Mirage fighters have completed their airframe life but still they are active in service with PAF and doing very good job than Chinese made F-7Ps and that's why Pakistan is replacing F-7Ps first with JF 17 Thunder fighters.Believe it or not PAF Mirage fighters are capable for carrying Nuclear cruise missiles , Anti Runway bombs , Anti-Surface bombs ,Anti-Ship missiles and include some short range Air to Air missiles.



Do you have pics of Mirage with full ammunition load-out? I've not seen pics showing the max load-out of weapons on it.


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## khanasifm

1. Never ever I have seen a picture of PAF Mirage with Night vision / IR under the nose with protective cover taken off






2. Not Sure if the AIM-9P have been upgrded to P4 making them all aspect or still pushing older version on Mirages (*AIM-9 P4*-improved version of the *AIM-9* P3 which is equipped with a Homing Head like the "L" version.)

The J/N evolved into the P series, with five versions being produced (P1 to P5) including such improvements as new fuzes, reduced-smoke rocket motors, and all-aspect capability on the latest P4 and P5.
BGT in Germany has developed a conversion kit for upgrading AIM-9J/N/P guidance and control assemblies to the AIM-9L standard, and this is being marketed as AIM-9JULI. The core of this upgrade is the fitting of the DSQ-29 seeker unit of the AIM-9L, replacing the original J/N/P seeker to give improved capabilities.


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## fatman17

Problem with the mirage lll and V are the airframes, so one has to be very careful when investing in them. basically other than the ROSE aircraft, they need to be replaced ASAP.


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## Windjammer

PAF Delta operator from No 7 Bandits squadron.

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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> PAF Delta operator from No 7 Bandits squadron.


share any pic of mirages with full armament


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## Taygibay

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Would be nice to see *Mirage (MLU)*



That would be *PLU*, AzadP ... as in post-life upgrade since Pakistan is the last nation using it!




 Tay.

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## ConcealCarry

MLU means Mid-Life Upgrade. Mirages are past their useful life even past their era. they are in very well maintained condition because of the brand new engines and spare parts that PAF acquired from across the world. 




AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Stuff done with the Mirage is certainly commendable , if the plane is in healthy situation (Engine/Parts)
> 
> Would be nice to see *Mirage (MLU)*
> > New Radar
> > New helmet based targeting
> > New Enhanced Data Display
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity , since Turkey has Software /Hardware for a plane which they made 100%
> in Turkey , why can't we just bring those systems into Mirage ?
> 
> 
> Even we make the hardware parts now / software
> 
> Just take out all the hardware / old software and install new stuff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me Mirage would be still tremendous plane with new Radar/New Helmet based targeting module , and BVR weapons (Need hardware/software upgrade)​

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## umair86pk

Mirage is a good platform for strike purposes and they can serve for some more years. PAF should have given it a canard upgrade to improve handling and takoff capability and replaced the ATAR9C with a better engine either ATAR9K50 or RD-93 types in the mid 2000s.


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## khanasifm

Even ROSE started in 1998/2000ish so 18-16 years ago , Mirage fuselage repair and inspection has no limit only limit is wings which needs to be replaced after not sure but say XXX hours. Picked up 70 new engines from Libya and not sure how many new.old wings from all across the globe

But looks like F7s and PG will go before all Mirages

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## CHI RULES

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Stuff done with the Mirage is certainly commendable , if the plane is in healthy situation (Engine/Parts)
> 
> Would be nice to see *Mirage (MLU)*
> > New Radar
> > New helmet based targeting
> > New Enhanced Data Display
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity , since Turkey has Software /Hardware for a plane which they made 100%
> in Turkey , why can't we just bring those systems into Mirage ?
> 
> 
> Even we make the hardware parts now / software
> 
> Just take out all the hardware / old software and install new stuff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me Mirage would be still tremendous plane with new Radar/New Helmet based targeting module , and BVR weapons (Need hardware/software upgrade)​


The mirage has passed it's useful life and even rebuild can't make them like MLU F16s. Further spares of Mirage-III/V are not available. PAF is perhaps relying on parts collected from the retired once both internally and externally which is amazing yet we can't convert 3rd gen Jet to compete with 4.5th gen jets.
The old engines or avionics may go out of life any time as happened in last few years with both F7Ps and Mrage-IIIs.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Taygibay said:


> That would be *PLU*, AzadP ... as in post-life upgrade since Pakistan is the last nation using it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tay.




lol nicely put , well I agree it needs a PLU in that case
Surprising becasue upgrade with system/software that already work is not that difficult or should not be that hard

Radar - China
Software-Hardware : Turkey
Helmet Mount Targeting : Pakistan
Servicing : Pakistan

Airframe/Wings can be made with special order

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## umair86pk

PAC did bought tooling from Belgium in the 1990s for Mirage Rebuilt Factory that used in the ROSE upgrade to repair airframe. If they want they have all the details to make new wings out better materials that are being used to make JF-17s.

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## Tipu7

Mirage-VEF from No.27 Tactical Attack Sqn _'Zarrar'_ during routine air-combat-training flights. 

No.27 Sqn is specialist squadron in day/night surface attack and deep intediction role. Their aircraft are equipped with Forward Looking Infra-Red sensors, Night Vision Goggles (NVG) & H-2/4 Joint Stand Off (JSOW) weapon.

Front seat pilot in Mirage-IIIDP aircraft Serial# 70-304 is wearing moderised HGU-55 helmet with provision for employment of NVGs.

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## Tipu7

@Windjammer

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## Windjammer

Dawn Strike. Armed with HAFR anti runway munitions , a PAF Mirage heads for it's targets.

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## Tipu7

Mirage 3 Bandits squadron. Taking off...............

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## CHI RULES

Windjammer said:


> Dawn Strike. Armed with HAFR anti runway munitions , a PAF Mirage heads for it's targets.
> 
> View attachment 336834



Dear Sir, as a pro do you really think Mirage-iii/v may prove to be effective in current scenario especially for deep strikes.

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## nomi007

we have all these





*PARMANO BOMB*

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## khanasifm

Non of the spanish ones were airworthi and used for spares only plus a number crashed so no not all are av

7,8 15,27 and 25 sqn Ccs mirages will not be needed once mirages are replaced already Ccs has jf same for f7s css

If average is 14 air raft per sqn than 14x5 is total number

Not sure about Libyian how many reactivated


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Non of the spanish ones were airworthi and used for spares only plus a number crashed so no not all are av
> 
> 7,8 15,27 and 25 sqn Ccs mirages will not be needed once mirages are replaced already Ccs has jf same for f7s css
> 
> If average is 14 air raft per sqn than 14x5 is total number
> 
> Not sure about Libyian how many reactivated



Libyan mostly used for spares but the main deal was 50 brand new Atar engines from Libya.

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## Frankenstein9321

IrbiS said:


> *ROSE with Two dumb bombs under belly:
> View attachment 279376
> *
> 
> View attachment 279375


Why is everyone copying my name....10 years ago....no one heard it....now its everywhere....i am famous.............not...lol


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## Basel

Why we are not using Mirages for buddy refueling role?

They have good ground clearance due to which will be able to carry decent size fuel pod under each wing or on centerline station.

@Zarvan @Windjammer @Arsalan @Tempest II @Rafi


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## Signalian

Basel said:


> Why we are not using Mirages for buddy refueling role?
> 
> They have good ground clearance due to which will be able to carry decent size fuel pod under each wing or on centerline station.
> 
> @Zarvan @Windjammer @Arsalan @Tempest II @Rafi


Mirage is going to be retired, dont you think JF-17 should be configured for that?


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## khanasifm

M


Sarge said:


> Mirage is going to be retired, dont you think JF-17 should be configured for that?




Most of block III JF brings add tonal precision strike capability which surpasses mirages and bring it to block 52 level with Laser pod and bombs plus Additional stand off weapons

AESA also brings simultaneous air to air and air to ground target engagement capability

Mirages may carry more fuel but their 50 era technology engine being tuebojet and not turbofan are not very fuel efficient so range wise it may not be better than JF

Bottom line there is no comparison between JF and f7 / mirage

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## aziqbal

Mirage is expensive to operate and even after 50 years PAF still sources certain parts from Dassault

Last year Dassault engineers visited MRF and PAF had to pay a fortune for them

Beauty about JF17 is not only that we can build home made fighter , it also means in the longer term the cost will be low because if we need spare parts we just order it and build it ourselves

Need a new wing ? Just order one no need to be tight on flying hours trying to preserve the jet like we do with mirage and even F16

This is why JF17 will most certainly run beyond 150 units to even 200 or 300

PAF is seeing the real fruits now brilliant project

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## fatman17

Each JFT = at 2x mirages or F7/PG in capability. If PAF retires all their F7s and Mirages, they will not replace all such aircraft with equal number of JFTs.

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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> Each JFT = at 2x mirages or F7/PG in capability. If PAF retires all their F7s and Mirages, they will not replace all such aircraft with equal number of JFTs.



Who says that
PAF is replacing 1:1 squadrons

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## CHINA83NEWS

The body organization is a bit old.


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## mrrehan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> salam every one,
> 
> LETS HAVE A TALK ON DETAILED CAPABILITIES OF MIRAGE FIGHTER/ BOMBER.
> because ROSE upgraded mirage still have to serve at least 10 more years.
> 
> 
> *BASIC DETAILS*
> 
> *DIMENSIONS*:
> Length 49.29 ft (15.03 m)
> Wingspan 26.96 ft (8.22 m)
> Height 14.75 ft (4.50 m)
> Wing Area 375 ft² (34.85 m²)
> 
> 
> 
> *WEIGHTS*:
> Empty 15,540 lb (7,050 kg)
> Normal Takeoff 21,165 lb (9,600 kg)
> Max Takeoff 30,205 lb (13,700 kg)
> Fuel Capacity internal: 880 gal (3,340 L)
> external: unknown
> Max Payload
> 
> 8,820 lb (4,000 kg)
> 
> 
> *PROPULSION*:
> Powerplant one SNECMA Atar 9C afterburning turbojet
> Thrust 13,670 lb (60.8 kN) with afterburner
> 
> 
> *PERFORMANCE: *
> Max Level Speed at altitude: 1,460 mph (2,350 km/h) at 39,370 ft (12,000 m), Mach 2.2
> at sea level: 863 mph (1,390 km/h), Mach 1.14
> Initial Climb Rate 16,400 ft (5,000 m) / min
> Service Ceiling 55,755 ft (17,000 m)
> Range typical: 1,294 nm (2,400 km)
> ferry: 2,160 nm (4,000 km)
> g-Limits unknown
> 
> 
> *ARMAMENT*:
> Gun two 30-mm DEFA 552A cannons (125 rds ea)
> Stations five external hardpoints
> Air-to-Air Missile AIM-9 Sidewinder, Matra R.530, Matra 550 Magic
> Air-to-Surface Missile AS.30, AS.37, Wasp
> Bomb 250/400 kg bombs
> Other rocket pods, ECM pods
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *detail of ROSE upgrades*.
> 
> *ROSE I*
> New head-up display (HUD).
> New "hands on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) controls.
> New multi-function displays (MFD).
> New navigation systems on diaplay screen including an inertial navigation system (An Inertial Navigation System (INS) is a navigation aid that uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers) and rotation sensors (gyroscopes) to continuously calculate via dead reckoning the position, orientation, and velocity (direction and speed of movement) of a moving object without the need for external references. ) and GPS system.
> 
> New radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic counter-measures (ECM) suite and counter-measure dispensing system, dispensing decoy flares and chaff to confuse enemy missiles and radar.
> 
> FIAR Grifo M3 radar.
> Beyond visual range (BVR) capability.
> AIM-9L Sidewinder, AM39 (70180 kilometres) etc
> Add on of In-flight refuelling probes
> RA'AD Cruise Missil.
> 
> *ROSE II*
> 
> Enhanced night-time surface strike capability.
> SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system.
> 
> ROSE II fighters the capability to fly safely in the dark at very low level to avoid radar.
> 
> Few unknown enhancments.
> 
> ROSE III
> 
> New SAGEM navigation/attack avionics suite.
> Mirage 5 ROSE III fighters and specialise in night-time surface strike missions.



I would like to know why Pakistan is not quite serious when it's come to Mirage aircraft's, we have few variants in use, we have done modification in aircraft, we have rebuild factory for Mirage very good knowledge of aircraft's engine. Israel on other hand have done the same moreover they have developed their own KAFIR from Mirage 5. However the platform is quite old now but still KAFIR has been heavily modified and perhaps undergoing dealing with Argentina for sale.

My question is that why not Pakistan have done so "I am not saying saying, Pakistan should make variant of Mirage". At least Pakistan could have gone towards Mirage 2000, Which is basically form from Mirage 5. A very nice platform that we a history of usage, maintaining facilities and trained peoples as well.


DANGER-ZONE said:


> salam every one,
> 
> LETS HAVE A TALK ON DETAILED CAPABILITIES OF MIRAGE FIGHTER/ BOMBER.
> because ROSE upgraded mirage still have to serve at least 10 more years.
> 
> 
> *BASIC DETAILS*
> 
> *DIMENSIONS*:
> Length 49.29 ft (15.03 m)
> Wingspan 26.96 ft (8.22 m)
> Height 14.75 ft (4.50 m)
> Wing Area 375 ft² (34.85 m²)
> 
> 
> 
> *WEIGHTS*:
> Empty 15,540 lb (7,050 kg)
> Normal Takeoff 21,165 lb (9,600 kg)
> Max Takeoff 30,205 lb (13,700 kg)
> Fuel Capacity internal: 880 gal (3,340 L)
> external: unknown
> Max Payload
> 
> 8,820 lb (4,000 kg)
> 
> 
> *PROPULSION*:
> Powerplant one SNECMA Atar 9C afterburning turbojet
> Thrust 13,670 lb (60.8 kN) with afterburner
> 
> 
> *PERFORMANCE: *
> Max Level Speed at altitude: 1,460 mph (2,350 km/h) at 39,370 ft (12,000 m), Mach 2.2
> at sea level: 863 mph (1,390 km/h), Mach 1.14
> Initial Climb Rate 16,400 ft (5,000 m) / min
> Service Ceiling 55,755 ft (17,000 m)
> Range typical: 1,294 nm (2,400 km)
> ferry: 2,160 nm (4,000 km)
> g-Limits unknown
> 
> 
> *ARMAMENT*:
> Gun two 30-mm DEFA 552A cannons (125 rds ea)
> Stations five external hardpoints
> Air-to-Air Missile AIM-9 Sidewinder, Matra R.530, Matra 550 Magic
> Air-to-Surface Missile AS.30, AS.37, Wasp
> Bomb 250/400 kg bombs
> Other rocket pods, ECM pods
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *detail of ROSE upgrades*.
> 
> *ROSE I*
> New head-up display (HUD).
> New "hands on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) controls.
> New multi-function displays (MFD).
> New navigation systems on diaplay screen including an inertial navigation system (An Inertial Navigation System (INS) is a navigation aid that uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers) and rotation sensors (gyroscopes) to continuously calculate via dead reckoning the position, orientation, and velocity (direction and speed of movement) of a moving object without the need for external references. ) and GPS system.
> 
> New radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic counter-measures (ECM) suite and counter-measure dispensing system, dispensing decoy flares and chaff to confuse enemy missiles and radar.
> 
> FIAR Grifo M3 radar.
> Beyond visual range (BVR) capability.
> AIM-9L Sidewinder, AM39 (70180 kilometres) etc
> Add on of In-flight refuelling probes
> RA'AD Cruise Missil.
> 
> *ROSE II*
> 
> Enhanced night-time surface strike capability.
> SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system.
> 
> ROSE II fighters the capability to fly safely in the dark at very low level to avoid radar.
> 
> Few unknown enhancments.
> 
> ROSE III
> 
> New SAGEM navigation/attack avionics suite.
> Mirage 5 ROSE III fighters and specialise in night-time surface strike missions.





Sorry to read this quite late now but, I would like to know why Pakistan is not quite serious when it's come to Mirage aircraft's, we have few variants in use, we have done modification in aircraft, we have rebuild factory for Mirage very good knowledge of aircraft's engine. Israel on other hand have done the same moreover they have developed their own KAFIR from Mirage 5. However the platform is quite old now but still KAFIR has been heavily modified and perhaps undergoing dealing with Argentina for sale.

My question is that why not Pakistan have done so "I am not saying saying, Pakistan should make variant of Mirage". At least Pakistan could have gone towards Mirage 2000, Which is basically form from Mirage 5. A very nice platform that we a history of usage, maintaining facilities and trained peoples as well.



DANGER-ZONE said:


> salam every one,
> 
> LETS HAVE A TALK ON DETAILED CAPABILITIES OF MIRAGE FIGHTER/ BOMBER.
> because ROSE upgraded mirage still have to serve at least 10 more years.
> 
> 
> *BASIC DETAILS*
> 
> *DIMENSIONS*:
> Length 49.29 ft (15.03 m)
> Wingspan 26.96 ft (8.22 m)
> Height 14.75 ft (4.50 m)
> Wing Area 375 ft² (34.85 m²)
> 
> 
> 
> *WEIGHTS*:
> Empty 15,540 lb (7,050 kg)
> Normal Takeoff 21,165 lb (9,600 kg)
> Max Takeoff 30,205 lb (13,700 kg)
> Fuel Capacity internal: 880 gal (3,340 L)
> external: unknown
> Max Payload
> 
> 8,820 lb (4,000 kg)
> 
> 
> *PROPULSION*:
> Powerplant one SNECMA Atar 9C afterburning turbojet
> Thrust 13,670 lb (60.8 kN) with afterburner
> 
> 
> *PERFORMANCE: *
> Max Level Speed at altitude: 1,460 mph (2,350 km/h) at 39,370 ft (12,000 m), Mach 2.2
> at sea level: 863 mph (1,390 km/h), Mach 1.14
> Initial Climb Rate 16,400 ft (5,000 m) / min
> Service Ceiling 55,755 ft (17,000 m)
> Range typical: 1,294 nm (2,400 km)
> ferry: 2,160 nm (4,000 km)
> g-Limits unknown
> 
> 
> *ARMAMENT*:
> Gun two 30-mm DEFA 552A cannons (125 rds ea)
> Stations five external hardpoints
> Air-to-Air Missile AIM-9 Sidewinder, Matra R.530, Matra 550 Magic
> Air-to-Surface Missile AS.30, AS.37, Wasp
> Bomb 250/400 kg bombs
> Other rocket pods, ECM pods
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *detail of ROSE upgrades*.
> 
> *ROSE I*
> New head-up display (HUD).
> New "hands on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) controls.
> New multi-function displays (MFD).
> New navigation systems on diaplay screen including an inertial navigation system (An Inertial Navigation System (INS) is a navigation aid that uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers) and rotation sensors (gyroscopes) to continuously calculate via dead reckoning the position, orientation, and velocity (direction and speed of movement) of a moving object without the need for external references. ) and GPS system.
> 
> New radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic counter-measures (ECM) suite and counter-measure dispensing system, dispensing decoy flares and chaff to confuse enemy missiles and radar.
> 
> FIAR Grifo M3 radar.
> Beyond visual range (BVR) capability.
> AIM-9L Sidewinder, AM39 (70180 kilometres) etc
> Add on of In-flight refuelling probes
> RA'AD Cruise Missil.
> 
> *ROSE II*
> 
> Enhanced night-time surface strike capability.
> SAGEM Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) system.
> 
> ROSE II fighters the capability to fly safely in the dark at very low level to avoid radar.
> 
> Few unknown enhancments.
> 
> ROSE III
> 
> New SAGEM navigation/attack avionics suite.
> Mirage 5 ROSE III fighters and specialise in night-time surface strike missions.





I would like to know why Pakistan is not quite serious when it's come to Mirage aircraft's, we have few variants in use, we have done modification in aircraft, we have rebuild factory for Mirage very good knowledge of aircraft's engine. Israel on other hand have done the same moreover they have developed their own KAFIR from Mirage 5. However the platform is quite old now but still KAFIR has been heavily modified and perhaps undergoing dealing with Argentina for sale.

My question is that why not Pakistan have done so "I am not saying saying, Pakistan should make variant of Mirage". At least Pakistan could have gone towards Mirage 2000, Which is basically form from Mirage 5. A very nice platform that we a history of usage, maintaining facilities and trained peoples as well.


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## HRK

*RAAF Mirage A3-62 Whyalla 21st October 1990 Photo Daniel Tanner





RAAF Mirage A3-62 At Whyalla after being transported from Woomera Photo Tony Lewis





RAAF Mirage A3-62 arriving at Whyalla Photo Tony Lewis






RAAF Mirage A3-62  as PAF 90-562 Combat Commanders School (CCS) badge on tail








*

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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> *RAAF Mirage A3-62 Whyalla 21st October 1990 Photo Daniel Tanner*
> 
> *
> View attachment 370644
> *


a success story, bringing back those fighters and operating them for additional 20+ years

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## HRK

*RAAF Mirages at Whyalla destined for Pakistan *












*RAAF A-83



*





*PAF 583



*

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## HRK

In continuation ....

*PAF 583*






*Mirages at Whyalla, awaiting shipping to Pakistan
















*

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## Windjammer

Perfect timing.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Amazing what PAKISTAN , engineering was able to acomplish with what it got from Australia

Just wow , what it was before ...

Amazing Transformation






And turned into after some love and care






PS also credit to some collaborative work from French initially etc

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## ghazi768

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Amazing what PAKISTAN , engineering was able to acomplish with what it got from Australia
> 
> Just wow , what it was before ...
> 
> Amazing Transformation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And turned into after some love and care


Good paint job.

The tried and tested old adage
If something moves.. salute it. If it does not move..paint it

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

ghazi768 said:


> Good paint job.
> 
> The tried and tested old adage
> If something moves.. salute it. If it does not move..paint it




hahaha you clearly have no clue what kind of depth the Engineers went to rebuilt planes from scratch there are a few documentaries that cover , what we did , and continue to do in our Engineering Centers

Initially even I was not aware of our capabilities untill I saw the capabilitie of PAF in official documentaries

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## ghazi768

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> hahaha you clearly have no clue what kind of depth the Engineers went to rebuilt planes from scratch there are a few documentaries that cover , what we did , and continue to do in our Engineering Centers
> 
> Initially even I was not aware of our capabilities untill I saw the capabilitie of PAF in official documentaries


That was a joke..
and honestly I do not need documentaries to know our capabilities.


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## nomi007

how many we purchase from Australia


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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> how many we purchase from Australia



40

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## syed_yusuf

It was as 50


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## singlefighter

ziaulislam said:


> a success story, bringing back those fighters and operating them for additional 20+ years



Bro 27 years and still flying


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## nomi007

Classic shot of a heavily laden *RAAF Mirage III* from trials unit ARDU rolling at low level

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## HRK

Centurion2016 said:


> They cant achieve supersonic speed beyond mach one


 shows knowledge of the poster regarding subject he is DEBATING ....

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## Basel

Centurion2016 said:


> These planes are outdated now in 2017
> 
> They cant achieve supersonic speed beyond mach one
> 
> in a modern war with almost all missles both SAM & WVR & BVR dog fighting missles averaging mach 3 these mirages will last literally minutes.
> 
> These fighters which could represent 25% of the entire PAF fleet can only operate in a airspace where there is total supremacy . Over the LOC or beyond they will be mauled to death so PAF tactics will be to keep over safe skys only
> 
> PAF UPDATED the electronics but could not change the airframe flight controls or instal a new more powerful moderrn engine.
> 
> buying dated equipment like this has severe limitations over all.
> 
> THIS IS WHY THUNDER WAS SUCH A GOOD MOVE



If you think PAF don't have trust in the upgrade they gave to M-3/5 and will not put them on frontline fight then you are mistaken, M-3s are still strike fighter of PAF.

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## khanasifm

Delta drivers in Swiss Alps

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## Windjammer

*The ''Boss'' went up for a sortie in a Delta belonging to the ''Zarrar'' unit.*

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> *The ''Boss'' went up for a sortie in a Delta belonging to the ''Zarrar'' unit.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 379920



What's so special just a visit to stay current with non f16 and JF part of af ?


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## ali_raza

we should buy m2k these deltas are beasts

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## Windjammer

Windjammer said:


> *The ''Boss'' went up for a sortie in a Delta belonging to the ''Zarrar'' unit.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 379920

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## syed_yusuf

is he going to do flypast on pakistan day in mirage?


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## Windjammer

syed_yusuf said:


> is he going to do flypast on pakistan day in mirage?


No just checked himself out on a sortie.

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## ali_raza

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 380564


this machine is solid


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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> What's so special just a visit to stay current with non f16 and JF part of af ?


Morale, take a young inductee on a flight

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## Windjammer

ali_raza said:


> this machine is solid


But it's getting on a bit,


Oscar said:


> Morale, take a young inductee on a flight


Why does the rear cockpit looks so cluttered with wires.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> But it's getting on a bit,
> 
> Why does the rear cockpit looks so cluttered with wires.


Both the front and back are cluttered, just some jets have a cover on them for both aesthetics and protection from heat and other damage

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Both the front and back are cluttered, just some jets have a cover on them for both aesthetics and protection from heat and other damage


Although this looks to be a ROSE-3 machine....IFR Probe is obvious.

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## Talon

Oscar said:


> Morale, take a young inductee on a flight


He's from 129 gdp and an OPs pilot..not that much young inductee 



khanasifm said:


> Even ROSE started in 1998/2000ish so 18-16 years ago , Mirage fuselage repair and inspection has no limit only limit is wings which needs to be replaced after not sure but say XXX hours. Picked up 70 new engines from Libya and not sure how many new.old wings from all across the globe
> 
> But looks like F7s and PG will go before all Mirages


Whaaattttt....dude PGs are gonna stay atleast 10 more years..

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> He's from 129 gdp and an OPs pilot..not that much young inductee
> 
> 
> Whaaattttt....dude PGs are gonna stay atleast 10 more years..


Compared to the senior staff at the base I guess
Either way, this is still a morale flight

The PGs can do much more than on paper, so they will stay that is quite true

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## Talon

Oscar said:


> Compared to the senior staff at the base I guess
> Either way, this is still a morale flight
> 
> The PGs can do much more than on paper, so they will stay that is quite true


Indeed it would be a Morale flight for anyone in the cockpit...


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## Windjammer



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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Amazing what PAKISTAN , engineering was able to acomplish with what it got from Australia
> 
> Just wow , what it was before ...
> 
> Amazing Transformation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And turned into after some love and care
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS also credit to some collaborative work from French initially etc


Pak folks know how to milk the bulls!!!! InshaAllah very bright days ahead of you!!!

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## HRK

HAKIKAT said:


> Pak folks know how to milk the bulls





...........

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

HRK said:


> ...........


Don't take it otherwise!! It's a Turkish saying to imply achieving impossible staffs!!!

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## MastanKhan

HAKIKAT said:


> Don't take it otherwise!! It's a Turkish saying to imply achieving impossible staffs!!!




It is a pakistani saying as well---in punjabi it is---" Katay noon cho lita "

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## Windjammer

This year marks 50 years of Mirages service with PAF....1967......2017.
The event was celebrated with seven Mirages representing all current PAF Mirage squadrons participating in the Pakistan Day flypast with three of the aircraft marking the occasion with a bomb burst. One of the aircraft was also painted with special markings.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> This year marks 50 years of Mirages service with PAF....1967......2017.
> The event was celebrated with seven Mirages representing all current PAF Mirage squadrons participating in the Pakistan Day flypast with three of the aircraft marking the occasion with a bomb burst. One of the aircraft was also painted with special markings.
> 
> 
> View attachment 386238


Amazing they are still flying

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## ali_raza

MastanKhan said:


> It is a pakistani saying as well---in punjabi it is---" Katay noon cho lita "


lol 
sir do u think we have still any hope about any deal with france


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I thought the Mirage that flew in parade looked rather sharp from outside any new closeup picture of the preped up Jets

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## MastanKhan

ali_raza said:


> lol
> sir do u think we have still any hope about any deal with france




No sir.

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## Windjammer

Windjammer said:


> This year marks 50 years of Mirages service with PAF....1967......2017.
> The event was celebrated with seven Mirages representing all current PAF Mirage squadrons participating in the Pakistan Day flypast with three of the aircraft marking the occasion with a bomb burst. One of the aircraft was also painted with special markings.
> 
> 
> View attachment 386238



Specially painted Mirage-V to mark 50 years of the types service with PAF.

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## el nino

Windjammer said:


> Specially painted Mirage-V to mark 50 years of the types service with PAF.
> 
> View attachment 386371



I salute the PAF mirages for services rendered

Will go down as lengendary fighters for PAF.

but these planes are 50 years old and in a 21st century air campaign they will suffer terrible losses.

The Mirage 5 was designed to fight F4 phantom or a MIG21 / mig23

They are not designed to fight 4th generation fighters like mirage2000/ mig29/ su30mki & Rafale .


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## Michael Corleone

i don't understand how these fighters are still airworthy... quality? or just still has flight hours left in em?


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## khanasifm

Per paf history book 1999-2013 all user except paf retired mirage after gv-2 or second overhaul paf/Pac devised gv-3 and mini GV-3 to keep them.flying

Same thing for f7s oem had 2600 hours total life pac Devised another ground visit or overhaul to get additional 200 hours before jf replacement of f7s w/o support from oem

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## denel

When i see a mirage 3/5, it brings great memories when we did the port-over/complete re-construction to a new design based on part kfir and part local.






note the ifr which PAF bought from us....

It was one of our greatest achievements and just superb performance overall. Now all sold off to ecuador.





Another cheetah with Table mountain backdrop.

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## nomi007

hope paf will continue his journey by replacing mirage III/V with UAE mirage 2000


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## Readerdefence

At the moment we can have Burj khalifa only but that's also only on republic day


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## Windjammer

Special tail markings on a Mirage commemorating the types 50 years of service with the PAF.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Special tail markings on a Mirage commemorating the types 50 years of service with the PAF.
> 
> View attachment 386905
> 
> 
> View attachment 386906


Should send them for the Royal Tattoo RIAT

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## MastanKhan

el nino said:


> I salute the PAF mirages for services rendered
> 
> Will go down as lengendary fighters for PAF.
> 
> but these planes are 50 years old and in a 21st century air campaign they will suffer terrible losses.
> 
> The Mirage 5 was designed to fight F4 phantom or a MIG21 / mig23
> 
> They are not designed to fight 4th generation fighters like mirage2000/ mig29/ su30mki & Rafale .




Hi,

They are not---so their role is for strike missions---& EW.

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## el nino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> They are not---so their role is for strike missions---& EW.




Fair point .

Did not realise they are not geared to BVR air combat or dog fighting


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## khanasifm

Bottom line if there was $$ they would be replaced years ago adding 1 sqn per year means at least 2 to 3 hundred million dollars I mean for jf so looks that is the max ratr og Induction capacity exist d for sqn and half but paf only getting one per year


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Should send them for the Royal Tattoo RIAT


better to send them next paris airshow


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## MystryMan

nomi007: 9325150 said:


> hope paf will continue his journey by replacing mirage III/V with UAE mirage 2000


With used F16 instead.

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## CHI RULES

MystryMan said:


> With used F16 instead.


PAF hands are tied in case of even old F16s, at present PAF has no liberty to arm their F16s with required ground attack ammo only limited options available for defensive roles they are good only for air combat. However their edge in A2A role shall be lost buy 2018-19 when IAF starts induction Rafael.

PAF should immediately look for another 4.5th gen fighter as gap filler.

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## Rocky rock



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## litman

CHI RULES said:


> PAF hands are tied in case of even old F16s, at present PAF has no liberty to arm their F16s with required ground attack ammo only limited options available for defensive roles they are good only for air combat. However their edge in A2A role shall be lost buy 2018-19 when IAF starts induction Rafael.
> 
> PAF should immediately look for another 4.5th gen fighter as gap filler.


one of the world's most accurate air to ground weapons "JDAMS" are available for F-16 only in PAF and PAF is not going to use them for air to air roles.

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## khanasifm

Gbu32, 38, plus latest version of laser guided dual mode GPS cu m laser gbu12, 24 and finally bunker buster 109- paf opted for these as they are less expensive jsow- was too expensive and RAAD plus h2/h4 are cheaper and available same is the case for 9x 500k-per round vs 100k 9m paf prefered paying 500-per aim120s may be in future these will be bought


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Gbu32, 38, plus latest version of laser guided dual mode GPS cu m laser gbu12, 24 and finally bunker buster 109- paf opted for these as they are less expensive jsow- was too expensive and RAAD plus h2/h4 are cheaper and available same is the case for 9x 500k-per round vs 100k 9m paf prefered paying 500-per aim120s may be in future these will be bought


Pakistan can get something similar to the JSOW in the form of China's YJ-6/GB-6. I hope the PAF can secure precision-guided bomblet technology similar to the BLU-108. Paired with the GB-6 this would provide a credible capability against armour.

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## CHI RULES

litman said:


> one of the world's most accurate air to ground weapons "JDAMS" are available for F-16 only in PAF and PAF is not going to use them for air to air roles.


Sorry sir facts do not support your statement as JDAM is mere 28KM range can't be an alternate of Cruise Missiles like RAAD which we can easily integrate with JF17s in near future and already done with Mirage. However in case of F16s PAF will/shall not get any sort of permission /access to integrate hi tech missiles which may prove to be a real threat to Indians. Paf even can't get in recent scenario the AMRAAM 120 C-7 or AIM-X along AESA or IRST i.e V up grade.
Please deny me with solid facts.

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## syed_yusuf

Rocky rock said:


> View attachment 388054



Is this newly rebuild plane. Looking very fresh. Why are these ex labanese place radome painted grey while ex Australian mirage 3 are painted black ?


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## Rocky rock

syed_yusuf said:


> Is this newly rebuild plane. Looking very fresh. Why are these ex labanese place radome painted grey while ex Australian mirage 3 are painted black ?



Most of our Mirage 3 comes with grey and dark color and mirage 5 with green camo pattern.
The Naval Squadron of Mirage 5 got blue belly.






















*The upgraded ones looks like this!*

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## litman

CHI RULES said:


> Sorry sir facts do not support your statement as JDAM is mere 28KM range can't be an alternate of Cruise Missiles like RAAD which we *can easily integrate with JF17s in near future *and already done with Mirage. However in case of F16s PAF will/shall not get any sort of permission /access to integrate hi tech missiles which may prove to be a real threat to Indians. Paf even can't get in recent scenario the AMRAAM 120 C-7 or AIM-X along AESA or IRST i.e V up grade.
> Please deny me with solid facts.


the only problem with JFT when compared with F-16 is there is always too much use of future tense. it WILL have this and it WILL have that. currently JFT is ahead of our F-16 is in anti ship role. otherwise it lags behind the falcon in every role. that's why PAF uses F-16s extensively in western sector.

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## fatman17

CHI RULES said:


> PAF hands are tied in case of even old F16s, at present PAF has no liberty to arm their F16s with required ground attack ammo only limited options available for defensive roles they are good only for air combat. However their edge in A2A role shall be lost buy 2018-19 when IAF starts induction Rafael.
> 
> PAF should immediately look for another 4.5th gen fighter as gap filler.


How so.


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## CHI RULES

litman said:


> the only problem with JFT when compared with F-16 is there is always too much use of future tense. it WILL have this and it WILL have that. currently JFT is ahead of our F-16 is in anti ship role. otherwise it lags behind the falcon in every role. that's why PAF uses F-16s extensively in western sector.



So u deny near future Block-iii which is being confirmed by PAF officials and secondly JFT in it's current state is simply more capable in A2G role as any missile can be integrated with it unlike our F16s. The only advantage F16 has is A2A role which is going to be lost from 2018-19 when IAF starts induction of Rafael, similarly IAF is also interested in single engine 4.5th gen jet.



fatman17 said:


> How so.


U are already well informed regarding Rafael capabilities and expected Gripen induction. Meanwhile facts showing our F16s will/shall not get V upgrade.

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## syed_yusuf

Rocky rock said:


> Most of our Mirage 3 comes with grey and dark color and mirage 5 with green camo pattern.
> The Naval Squadron of Mirage 5 got blue belly.
> 
> View attachment 388256
> 
> View attachment 388257
> 
> View attachment 388258
> 
> View attachment 388265
> 
> View attachment 388259
> 
> 
> *The upgraded ones looks like this!*
> 
> View attachment 388264




thanks for the info but my question was

1 - why mirage 3 EL [Lebanese] are having grey radome while mirage 3 O [Australian] having black radome as follows
















compare to Lebanese







or shy some of them has black nose while others have grey? any idea?

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## litman

CHI RULES said:


> So u deny near future Block-iii which is being confirmed by PAF officials and secondly JFT in it's current state is simply more capable in A2G role as any missile can be integrated with it unlike our F16s. The only advantage F16 has is A2A role which is going to be lost from 2018-19 when IAF starts induction of Rafael, similarly IAF is also interested in single engine 4.5th gen jet.
> 
> 
> U are already well informed regarding Rafael capabilities and expected Gripen induction. Meanwhile facts showing our F16s will/shall not get V upgrade.


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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=909433232537817

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## hassan1



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## khanasifm

Low level penetrating aircraft or attack and camouflage colour as the interceptor looking from above have difficulty looking down with ground in the background while their belly is blue if they fly high interceptor pilot will have difficulty catching with human eye against blue sky interceptor flying high above are gray so looking up against sky are difficult to detect by human eye mirage with Grifo radar are grey while rest camo and blue

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## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/858303241565634562

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## Fieldmarshal

Basel said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/858303241565634562


The highest rank that a ranker can obtain in the PAF is flight lieutenant....which too is honorary.
For him to obtain his current rank he would have applied to join the AF as an officer n a aeronautical engineer, while still serving as a jco. After being selected he would have joined PAF academy Rasalpur. N only after passing out would have joined PAF as a pilot officer.

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## nomi007



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## Windjammer

An older image showing the ''Judy'' version of the Mirage III RP, armed with free fall bombs.

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## khanasifm

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 396502



Hayatabad PESHAWAR plane was bought by a business which provides steel and other stuff from paf and mounted here with their logo at the mount

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## khanasifm

One question Libyan mirage bought, 50 in 2003/4 and what ever were remaining were also sold to paf in 2007 the only figure for second 2007 is per AFM between 50-70 airframes in total for 2003 plus 2007, paf history gives break down for 2003 totalling 50 so it is safe to say 2007 total was 20 aircraft or airframes


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> One question Libyan mirage bought, 50 in 2003/4 and what ever were remaining were also sold to paf in 2007 the only figure for second 2007 is per AFM between 50-70 airframes in total for 2003 plus 2007, paf history gives break down for 2003 totalling 50 so it is safe to say 2007 total was 20 aircraft or airframes


50 aircraft plus nearly 50 unused engines was the deal


----------



## blinder

fatman17 said:


> 50 aircraft plus nearly 50 unused engines was the deal


According to the book "Mirage III/5/50 en service à l'étranger" (Mirage III/5/50 in foreign service - part 4 of the infamous Mirage book series), 53 airframes were acquired in 2004 followed by 26 more in 2005; totalling 79 and constituting all surviving airframes in Libya.

As a sidenote, these airframes had only 370 to 800 hours on the 32 M5MD, 500 to 750 hours on the 29 M5DE (although one had 1100 hrs), 900 to 1200 hours on the 12 M5DD, and 450 to 600 hours on the 6 M5DR.

In theory, the Mirage factory at Kamra can revive a couple of these reserve aircraft every year and we will be seeing them for decades to come

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## Panzerkampf

blinder said:


> According to the book "Mirage III/5/50 en service à l'étranger" (Mirage III/5/50 in foreign service - part 4 of the infamous Mirage book series), 53 airframes were acquired in 2004 followed by 26 more in 2005; totalling 79 and constituting all surviving airframes in Libya.
> 
> As a sidenote, these airframes had only 370 to 800 hours on the 32 M5MD, 500 to 750 hours on the 29 M5DE (although one had 1100 hrs), 900 to 1200 hours on the 12 M5DD, and 450 to 600 hours on the 6 M5DR.
> 
> In theory, the Mirage factory at Kamra can revive a couple of these reserve aircraft every year and we will be seeing them for decades to come


Many were scrapped for spares as per SIPRI arms trade register.


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## khanasifm

Paf history 1999 2013 state a dozen or so revived mostly reci and dual seat ers rest being used to keep fleet airworthy by some will be revived as older mirages need to be replaced


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## khanasifm

Mirages will remain till last 100 of the jf comes into play i.e. 100 past initial 150 which are replacing f7p and PGS now block 2 will replace all ps and 50 block 3 all pgs or mix of pgs / mirages

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## syed_yusuf

No too sure about 100 but for sure 2 ROSE 1, one ROSE 2 and one ROSE 3 squadrons will remain in service that is close to 72-76 examples. these are recently upgraded and fit the 3rd Gen bill perfectly. these 4 squadrons will be the one replace after first 150 of JFT delivered. PAF have enough spares and know how to keep these 4 squadrons relevant and flying in spic and span condition

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## fatman17

To celebrate the 50th anniversary of its Mirage III/V fleet, the Pakistan Air Force has painted this Mirage VEF in special markings. The jet was seen by thousands on March 23 when it flew over Islamabad during the Pakistan Day celebrations. It is operated by 27 Squadron ‘Zarrars’ stationed at PAF Base Rafiqui under Central Air Command.

Serial 706 is one of two aircraft marked up to commemorate the PAF’s order for 18 Mirage IIIEPs, three Mirage IIIRPs and three Mirage IIIDPs in 1967. The other aircraft was on overhaul at PAC Kamra in late April. Alan Warnes

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## khanasifm

Per paf history after Lybian deal (2007), in 2008 Swiss package was acquired and all its engines were reduced to spares

Plus local manufacture of ATAR engines items was also started 

Mirage fleet at one time at its peak was more than 120 aircraft

With consultation of OEM since 2012 delta ground visit is in place to keep mirages past 2020 

Pg will go first as there is no provision I think

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## Windjammer

*Maybe we can push start this. 
*

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## bananarepublic

Windjammer said:


> *Maybe we can push start this.
> *
> 
> View attachment 400384



it seems like the mirage is somewhere in the north maybe the skardu airport.


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## Talon

khanasifm said:


> Per paf history after Lybian deal (2007), in 2008 Swiss package was acquired and all its engines were reduced to spares
> 
> Plus local manufacture of ATAR engines items was also started
> 
> Mirage fleet at one time at its peak was more than 120 aircraft
> 
> With consultation of OEM since 2012 delta ground visit is in place to keep mirages past 2020
> 
> Pg will go first as there is no provision I think


Pg will stay for atleast 10 more years..thats for sure..


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## umair86pk

What items were acquired in Swiss package?

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## khanasifm

umair86pk said:


> What items were acquired in Swiss package?



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Air_Force_aircraft_squadrons


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## umair86pk

no info on this page


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## khanasifm

umair86pk said:


> no info on this page




Swiss mirages retired by saf and related engines etc were picked up for spares conversion

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## Windjammer

*50 Years of dedicated Service.*

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## khanasifm

Mirage 5 was basically ground attack version with more hard points 7 vs 5 on mirage 3 but now days you do not see additional hard points being much used in paf as paf and Egypt are the only operators left http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/dassault_mirage-5.php


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## khanasifm

http://www.network54.com/Forum/624633/thread/1480869785/Mirage+5+load+out...


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## salman-1

Why we don't see such bomb loads on our Mirages. Can't they carry such loads now due to old age.


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## Arsalan

salman-1 said:


> Why we don't see such bomb loads on our Mirages. Can't they carry such loads now due to old age.


WHAT bombs?
What are you referring too?


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## salman-1

These loads I am talking about, they r shown on the web links above my post.

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## khanasifm

One outer wing would carry aams plus hardpoint 6 and 7 are not being used and may be only available on later version of mirage 5 not sure I had asked but don't remember what the answer was, not even on rose2/3 version guessing here as I am basing this on available pics and not actual info


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## Ahmet Pasha

Windjammer said:


> *50 Years of dedicated Service.*
> 
> View attachment 405914



50 years of dedicated service.
Very nice 
Now give our nation something new to fight cancer India

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## DarX

Panzerkampf said:


> Many were scrapped for spares as per SIPRI arms trade register.



There is no conclusive evidence on that website to show that all those practically brand new Mirages were scrapped. The Mirage project of the PAF aimed to recover as many air frames as possible and scrap the rest, and if the Libyan jets had such low flying hours, there is no reason why the PAF would dismantle them for spares.

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## DarX

salman-1 said:


> These loads I am talking about, they r shown on the web links above my post.
> View attachment 406085



These are wartime loads and usually are only carried on special missions. In any case, these heavy loads will severely restrict the maneuverability and range of the fighter jet. But I don't think there is any restriction on the mirages for carrying such heavy bomb loads. The planes that are flying will retain the same capabilities as when they left the factory. The only thing that changes with age is their component failure rate.


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## denel

Keep posting images; it is great to see how Mirage keeps flying. If some of the frames were new, it makes no sense to throw them away as there is good life left.


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## khanasifm

blinder said:


> According to the book "Mirage III/5/50 en service à l'étranger" (Mirage III/5/50 in foreign service - part 4 of the infamous Mirage book series), 53 airframes were acquired in 2004 followed by 26 more in 2005; totalling 79 and constituting all surviving airframes in Libya.
> 
> As a sidenote, these airframes had only 370 to 800 hours on the 32 M5MD, 500 to 750 hours on the 29 M5DE (although one had 1100 hrs), 900 to 1200 hours on the 12 M5DD, and 450 to 600 hours on the 6 M5DR.
> 
> In theory, the Mirage factory at Kamra can revive a couple of these reserve aircraft every year and we will be seeing them for decades to come



Per paf history 1999-2103 14 Ac were recovered mostly dual seaters and reci from first batch but as needed some additional will be recovered and rest used as spares, some were used for spares as displayed by AFM in article on lybian af

I had seen those Ac on my visit as well


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## Sameer25

these fighters are outdated and we need to replace them as quickly as we can


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## Talon

Sameer25 said:


> these fighters are outdated and we need to replace them as quickly as we can


Attack aircraft*

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## salman-1

About 90-100 airframes were taken after long time storage from France, Australia and Libya they still have not completed their company service life and in addition they were upgraded with latestavionics like radars etc for specially ground attack role. They will serve for atleast a decade or more in PAF

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## umair86pk

khanasifm said:


> Per paf history 1999-2103 14 Ac were recovered mostly dual seaters and reci from first batch but as needed some additional will be recovered and rest used as spares, some were used for spares as displayed by AFM in article on lybian af
> 
> I had seen those Ac on my visit as well


does anyone has this book ni pdf format?


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## Sameer25

Hodor said:


> Attack aircraft*


we need better attack aircrafts though, like an A-10 or a SU-25, we used to have the Q-5/A-5 but idk why we got rid of them. honestly pakistan need to make a attack aircraft because we would use it more. we need more bombers, attack aircrafts and combat drones

last time i checked terrorist dont have fighters(with the exception of india)

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## Talon

Sameer25 said:


> we need better attack aircrafts though, like an A-10 or a SU-25, we used to have the Q-5/A-5 but idk why we got rid of them. honestly pakistan need to make a attack aircraft because we would use it more. we need more bombers, attack aircrafts and combat drones
> 
> last time i checked terrorist dont have fighters(with the exception of india)


Its an era of MULTI ROLE aircrafts and MULTI ROLE squadrons


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## Sameer25

Hodor said:


> Its an era of MULTI ROLE aircrafts and MULTI ROLE squadrons


well multi-roles are pretty much fighters with a couple bombs strapped on them, they can never truly be an attack aircraft


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## Fledgingwings

Good post Dude!


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## Talon

Sameer25 said:


> well multi-roles are pretty much fighters with a couple bombs strapped on them, they can never truly be an attack aircraft


a mirage drops bombs so does an f16..but if u are referring to gun then only a10 or maybe the frog foot are unique


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## sparten

Mirage are currently in the role of deep penetration strike missions. The upgraded ROSE's with FLIR and advanced ECM suites could penetrate Indian airspace easily in the 1990's and 2000's and still today. Whether that will remain true past 2020 is unclear.


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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Sameer25 said:


> we need better attack aircrafts though, like an A-10 or a SU-25, we used to have the Q-5/A-5 but idk why we got rid of them. honestly pakistan need to make a attack aircraft because we would use it more. we need more bombers, attack aircrafts and combat drones
> 
> last time i checked terrorist dont have fighters(with the exception of india)


Again for any attack mission, attack aircrafts will must have to be accompanied by fighter aircrafts so it may not be better to use multirole aircraft doing both things(attack n self defence) in a single shot?


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## Centurion2016

sparten said:


> Mirage are currently in the role of deep penetration strike missions. The upgraded ROSE's with FLIR and advanced ECM suites could penetrate Indian airspace easily in the 1990's and 2000's and still today. Whether that will remain true past 2020 is unclear.




Why is it that You believe PAF can penetrate IAF airspace easily Today. ????????

Is PAF strike planes equipped with F22 raptors with RCS size of marbles and therefore invisible to radar
Or equipped with highly advanced EW suites like Rafales Spectra suites which jam the GCC radars .

YOU NEED TO Qualify your statement

IMO PAF mirages are obsolete airframes will get detected and taken out by any of IAF fighters be it mki mig29 or even bison mig21.

Don't underestimate the indian ability to track PAF fighters that may enter indian air space. The reason they will get picked up is the PAF strike fleet is mostly obsolete second generation mirages .


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## Bossman

The vintage PAF Mirages are still better than IAF Jaguars which have significant power issues.

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## Centurion2016

Bossman said:


> The vintage PAF Mirages are still better than IAF Jaguars which have significant power issues.



Jaguar was designed by France & UK as a dedicated low level strike plane

The indian Jaguar darin upgrade is far better strike plane than obsolete mirage 5 that's jack of all trades


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## Basel

Centurion2016 said:


> Jaguar was designed by France & UK as a dedicated low level strike plane
> 
> The indian Jaguar darin upgrade is far better strike plane than obsolete mirage 5 that's jack of all trades
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 411423



This was original Mirage-5 and it was built for low level ops in mind too, kindly don't spread lies to prove yourself.

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-5/

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## Bossman

Centurion2016 said:


> Jaguar was designed by France & UK as a dedicated low level strike plane
> 
> The indian Jaguar darin upgrade is far better strike plane than obsolete mirage 5 that's jack of all trades
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 411423


It was originally envisaged a trainer. It has fundamental issues which cannot be addressed through upgrades. It is grossly under-powered. Wonder why IAF has been looking for a more powerful engine. It is very rare that the type of engine of a fighter has to be replaced half way through its life. By the time DARIN is completed the Mirages would been retired. BTW the Mirages have also been also been significantly upgraded

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## Sameer25

DarX said:


> These are wartime loads and usually are only carried on special missions. In any case, these heavy loads will severely restrict the maneuverability and range of the fighter jet. But I don't think there is any restriction on the mirages for carrying such heavy bomb loads. The planes that are flying will retain the same capabilities as when they left the factory. The only thing that changes with age is their component failure rate.





Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Again for any attack mission, attack aircrafts will must have to be accompanied by fighter aircrafts so it may not be better to use multirole aircraft doing both things(attack n self defence) in a single shot?


idk why attack aircrafts would need air support in pakistani territory against terrorist. last time i checked TTP werents flying f-22s or F16s


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## sparten

Centurion2016 said:


> Why is it that You believe PAF can penetrate IAF airspace easily Today. ????????
> 
> Is PAF strike planes equipped with F22 raptors with RCS size of marbles and therefore invisible to radar
> Or equipped with highly advanced EW suites like Rafales Spectra suites which jam the GCC radars .
> 
> YOU NEED TO Qualify your statement
> 
> IMO PAF mirages are obsolete airframes will get detected and taken out by any of IAF fighters be it mki mig29 or even bison mig21.
> 
> Don't underestimate the indian ability to track PAF fighters that may enter indian air space. The reason they will get picked up is the PAF strike fleet is mostly obsolete second generation mirages .



Which is why I specified _ROSE _Mirages. With their modern ECM suite, Grifo M3 RADAR and FLIR.They absolutely could penetrate Indian airspace, especially in the low-level night time attack profile. FLIR permits them to fly low less than 100 feet, at night, which drastically reduces counter detection ability.

Radar coverage is not the same every where at every altitude. No country even the US and Russia and certainly not a 3 million sq km landmass having country like India can afford that. Typically you have a heavy RADAR concentration at the border, and at the avenue of approach for major targets. Otherwise, the RADAR coverage is spotty. The entie USAF has been unable to stop narco flights from Latin America, despite havimg

So a PAF ROSE Mirage strike package would have to fly low to avoid Indian RADAR for about 200 or so KM past the border. Then fly at medium altitude coast to the target, before dropping to low altitude again on approach. With stand off munitions like the Ra'ad and the H-2/H-4 it would be coast at medium altitude to get to launch point.


Do the Indians have a chance of intercepting and shooting down? Certainly and likely some would be lost. Is there a good chance that the mission could be completed successfully? Yes.

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## DarX

Sameer25 said:


> idk why attack aircrafts would need air support in pakistani territory against terrorist. last time i checked TTP werents flying f-22s or F16s



I think he was referring to strike missions in enemy territories where they might face an active hostile air defence.



Centurion2016 said:


> Jaguar was designed by France & UK as a dedicated low level strike plane
> 
> The indian Jaguar darin upgrade is far better strike plane than obsolete mirage 5 that's jack of all trades
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 411423



Jaguars were designed as trainer jets and only later on were adapted as strike platforms. The PAF has also not been sitting around and had upgraded its Mirages more than decade earlier. So the IAF is actually late to the party, as always.


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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm



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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

DarX said:


> I think he was referring to strike missions in enemy territories where they might face an active hostile air defence.



Yes i was referring enemies airspace which threat level reaches to 110% , in our own airspace we have other plenty of options , even burraq can do surgical strikes on terrorist


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## Windjammer

Centurion2016 said:


> Jaguar was designed by France & UK as a dedicated low level strike plane
> 
> The indian Jaguar darin upgrade is far better strike plane than obsolete mirage 5 that's jack of all trades


And the IAF started receiving it's Jaguars a decade after the Mirage 5s arrived in Pakistan, despite Jaguars being twin engine jets and never fired once in anger, still the IAF managed to crash the equivalent of three squadrons strength.... imagine if they were involved in actual combat.!!!

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## SQ8

This is a PAF mirage thread- please do not waste time with the self fellatio delusional types from across the border with their super paranormal weapons systems.

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## Sameer25

DarX said:


> I think he was referring to strike missions in enemy territories where they might face an active hostile air defence.
> 
> 
> 
> Jaguars were designed as trainer jets and only later on were adapted as strike platforms. The PAF has also not been sitting around and had upgraded its Mirages more than decade earlier. So the IAF is actually late to the party, as always.


thats what mulitroles are for, im taking about strictly against ground targets without air defense


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## DarX

Sameer25 said:


> thats what mulitroles are for, im taking about strictly against ground targets without air defense



It is unclear what you are trying to say over here. The multi-role jets were introduced because newer planes could perform both attack and air superiority missions with the help of avionics. The air force could then deploy a single type of aircraft which would simplify logistics and pilot training. As there were multiple references to the A-5 Fantan, it must be noted that the A-5 was derived from the F-6 and so was extremely maintenance intensive. Replacing it with the JF-17 provides a much better platform which also requires less maintenance. It also helps in providing much greater flexibility and lowers costs tremendously, as the air force could then field just one squadron to control the whole area, where it would've needed two squadrons for air defense and ground strikes.

This was the major reason behind the demise of specialized planes like the F-14 tomcat. Some types of planes do remain, like the A-10 warthog, which have unique capabilities, but even that aircraft is slated to be retired and replaced by a multi-role jet. So multi-role jets are NOT just planes which can undertake strike missions and air superiority at the same time, but they are planes which can undertake both missions just by changing the weapons load or having a mixed weapons load.

With regards to why strike missions might need air cover, if the threat environment is negligible, like operating within Pakistan territory, of course the PAF strike planes will not need air cover. But at other times it is needed even if the enemy doesn't have an air force. The shoot down of the Russian SU-24 by the Turkish F-16 is a case in point.

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## Sameer25

DarX said:


> It is unclear what you are trying to say over here. The multi-role jets were introduced because newer planes could perform both attack and air superiority missions with the help of avionics. The air force could then deploy a single type of aircraft which would simplify logistics and pilot training. As there were multiple references to the A-5 Fantan, it must be noted that the A-5 was derived from the F-6 and so was extremely maintenance intensive. Replacing it with the JF-17 provides a much better platform which also requires less maintenance. It also helps in providing much greater flexibility and lowers costs tremendously, as the air force could then field just one squadron to control the whole area, where it would've needed two squadrons for air defense and ground strikes.
> 
> This was the major reason behind the demise of specialized planes like the F-14 tomcat. Some types of planes do remain, like the A-10 warthog, which have unique capabilities, but even that aircraft is slated to be retired and replaced by a multi-role jet. So multi-role jets are NOT just planes which can undertake strike missions and air superiority at the same time, but they are planes which can undertake both missions just by changing the weapons load or having a mixed weapons load.
> 
> With regards to why strike missions might need air cover, if the threat environment is negligible, like operating within Pakistan territory, of course the PAF strike planes will not need air cover. But at other times it is needed even if the enemy doesn't have an air force. The shoot down of the Russian SU-24 by the Turkish F-16 is a case in point.


but we should have a better strike fighter like the su-34, it is extremely manuveral yet it can fit many bombs and missles. it has the fighting of a SU-27 while the bombing of a A-10


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## DarX

Sameer25 said:


> but we should have a better strike fighter like the su-34, it is extremely manuveral yet it can fit many bombs and missles. it has the fighting of a SU-27 while the bombing of a A-10



Operating costs are major considerations. An F-15 costs USD 40000 per hour, while an OV-10 costs USD 1000 per hour, although both have been used for coin operations. The difference between operating an SU-34 and a jf-17 would also be great. The SU-34's main benefits are range and deep strike ability, which are not needed as all targets in India are only a few hundred km away. Su-34 also would have major drawbacks, like for example its radar cross section is as large as a Boeing 737, which makes it easy to track.

So our JF-17 suits us perfectly as it is inexpensive, can be developed according to our requirements and will undertake all missions as required by us.


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## Arsi@Sahil

Really useful forum I never knew that we have forum like this available where we can get information LOVE IT.....

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## Sameer25

DarX said:


> Operating costs are major considerations. An F-15 costs USD 40000 per hour, while an OV-10 costs USD 1000 per hour, although both have been used for coin operations. The difference between operating an SU-34 and a jf-17 would also be great. The SU-34's main benefits are range and deep strike ability, which are not needed as all targets in India are only a few hundred km away. Su-34 also would have major drawbacks, like for example its radar cross section is as large as a Boeing 737, which makes it easy to track.
> 
> So our JF-17 suits us perfectly as it is inexpensive, can be developed according to our requirements and will undertake all missions as required by us.


the JF-17 is amazing but the onlything paf lacks is the size of planes. all of our plans are light mutiroles. this means they are small, this helps with stealth and stuff but in terms of strikes in cant carry that much, which means we need mulitiple fighters to do one mission. pakistan needs heavy fighters like the Su-35 or the J20 for offemnsive purposes.


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## DarX

Sameer25 said:


> the JF-17 is amazing but the onlything paf lacks is the size of planes. all of our plans are light mutiroles. this means they are small, this helps with stealth and stuff but in terms of strikes in cant carry that much, which means we need mulitiple fighters to do one mission. pakistan needs heavy fighters like the Su-35 or the J20 for offemnsive purposes.



I have explained previously that size is a distinct disadvantage and air forces only use larger planes if they have to make long range sorties. Otherwise, smaller planes are much better. If a larger plane can carry a heavier war load, it also costs much more to operate. It is much better to have a larger number of inexpensive light jets as compared to a smaller number of expensive heavy jets.

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## Talon

Sameer25 said:


> but we should have a better strike fighter like the su-34, it is extremely manuveral yet it can fit many bombs and missles. it has the fighting of a SU-27 while the bombing of a A-10


MAYBE we should have su34 but we CANT have su34 one of the reasons being heavy costs..
Rafiqui AFB is responsible for offensive tasks...mirages maybe old but they can be fitted with H weapon (released mid air while flying in enemy territory and then remotely guided to the target from the cockpit) and thats enough..
AS SAID BY 15 SQN COBRAS:

STRIKE FIRST..STRIKE HARD...NO MERCY

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## CHI RULES

DarX said:


> I have explained previously that size is a distinct disadvantage and air forces only use larger planes if they have to make long range sorties. Otherwise, smaller planes are much better. If a larger plane can carry a heavier war load, it also costs much more to operate. It is much better to have a larger number of inexpensive light jets as compared to a smaller number of expensive heavy jets.



Dear don't take me negative as I am partially agreed with your statement. In Indo Pak scenario yes small but agile jets are quite effective yet in new scenario they should have stealth features if not the should have superior ECM/ESM capabilities for survival, and these features do not come cheap. Pak requires at least medium range fighter bomber in medium weight class as the main focus of JF17 block 3 shall also be more on A2A warfare.

The Mirages whether capable or not new they are overhauled again and again, they are just like women in fifties looks good after plastic surgery yet in reality is old. Especially in bad whether these jets prove to be more dangerous. They have limited ECM/ESM capabilities and their strong point was low level flying to evade enemy radars. Now India has latest low to medium altitude radars so this feature of these jets is also lost.
We should and must go for FC31 if it is useful or otherwise try to get any J11 series jet for strike role.


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## tarrar

All old aircraft's are obsolete & are not fit to fight modern air war or ground attacks.

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## Imran Khan

tarrar said:


> All old aircraft's are obsolete & are not fit to fight modern air war or ground attacks.


only good thing i see in them is training our guys an keeping them airborne sir

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## denel

tarrar said:


> All old aircraft's are obsolete & are not fit to fight modern air war or ground attacks.


Yes, their time is long gone past. While what they have done to improve the aircraft is phenomenal e.g. ROSE etc; it is time to salute and rest them.

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> be fitted with H weapon


Among other things

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## Alternative

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 413977
> 
> Just a nice pic


Not 'Just a nice pic', but mighty nice one and breathtakingly good.

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## denel

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 413977
> 
> Just a nice pic


Great one.... we, South africans have a very soft spot for Mirages ....


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## Maea

soon they will be supplemented by JFT.
they served very well, but their golden days are gone, they need rest.
bt 2020s PAF will operate F16 and JFT as fighet aircraft.
i think if we have a total of 350+ JFT blk and above plus F16 this should make some balance betwin PAF and IAF


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## ziaulislam

MikeAlphaEchoAlpha said:


> soon they will be supplemented by JFT.
> they served very well, but their golden days are gone, they need rest.
> bt 2020s PAF will operate F16 and JFT as fighet aircraft.
> i think if we have a total of 350+ JFT blk and above plus F16 this should make some balance betwin PAF and IAF


i doubt they will go by 2020, i believe all the f-7s will go by 2020. while recent interviews shows the block 3 will be produced in 19-20 time frame so i fully expect this ti stay till 2025


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## syed_yusuf

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 413977
> 
> Just a nice pic


This is not rose mirage ?


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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> This is not rose mirage ?


It's just a nice pic


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## tarrar

Imran Khan said:


> only good thing i see in them is training our guys an keeping them airborne sir



Yes but please also check the crash rate of F7 & Mirages, this will help you to think otherwise.

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## Eagle_Nest

How many of Jf-17s block1 & block2 are in service with PAF ?


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## Imran Khan

Eagle_Nest said:


> How many of Jf-17s block1 & block2 are in service with PAF ?


Kabhi hisaab kitaab nhi kiya sir


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## Talon

MikeAlphaEchoAlpha said:


> soon they will be supplemented by JFT.
> they served very well, but their golden days are gone, they need rest.
> bt 2020s PAF will operate F16 and JFT as fighet aircraft.
> i think if we have a total of 350+ JFT blk and above plus F16 this should make some balance betwin PAF and IAF


by 2020 PAF will have the same(current) inventory



ziaulislam said:


> i doubt they will go by 2020, i believe all the f-7s will go by 2020. while recent interviews shows the block 3 will be produced in 19-20 time frame so i fully expect this ti stay till 2025


only F7Ps not PGs

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## khanasifm

14 block 2 for paf in 2017 will complete existing total of 50 batch add 2 dual seater for paf so again paf will have 16 for the year probably replacing last f7p sqn no 18 which was ocu for f7 p read some where additional block 2 expected in 2018 to keep production going as block 3 will start production in 2019 again based on what was shared online and during PAC tv interview or janes etc, the remaining capacity will go to foreign orders 16+ x where x = to max 8/9 per year

Mirage delta visit put in place to keep mirages past 2020 so mirages will be there at least 2025 or so per paf history 1999-2013 unless things have changed since 

Assuming max rate of 1 sqn per year so 3 pg and 6 mirage sqn that 9 years starting 2018


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## syed_yusuf

there are 5 mirage squadrons (not counting CCS deployment of 10 planes) and 3 PG
i believe by 2020, PAF will retire max of 4 vintage squadrons from this point on - this is on top of 100 blk1/2 examples
by 2020, i expect PAF to have 160 JFT including 2 squadrons of dual seater. this will leave rose mirage to shoulder on the responsibilities and may be 1 -2 squadrons of f-7PG. unless paf buys 1 -2 more f-16 squadrons. in that case all f-7 (all versions) will be gone. but then again 3 -4 mirage squadrons continue to fly into 2020's. may be till 2024.


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## ziaulislam

syed_yusuf said:


> there are 5 mirage squadrons (not counting CCS deployment of 10 planes) and 3 PG
> i believe by 2020, PAF will retire max of 4 vintage squadrons from this point on - this is on top of 100 blk1/2 examples
> by 2020, i expect PAF to have 160 JFT including 2 squadrons of dual seater. this will leave rose mirage to shoulder on the responsibilities and may be 1 -2 squadrons of f-7PG. unless paf buys 1 -2 more f-16 squadrons. in that case all f-7 (all versions) will be gone. but then again 3 -4 mirage squadrons continue to fly into 2020's. may be till 2024.


if only block 2 number is 100, otherwise block3 production will start late 2019 per interview and only by 2023 should you expect 150 fighters, not counting the dual seats


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## khanasifm

No 7, 8, 15, 22, 25, 27 plus Ccs all mirage sqn , not counting Ccs as it will not be required after the type is withdrawn

http://www.scramble.nl/orbats/pakistan/airforce


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## Windjammer

@Knuckles , it seems the Air chief is in the driving seat of the Mirage instead of the usual GIBS.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> @Knuckles , it seems the Air chief is in the driving seat of the Mirage instead of the usual GIBS.
> 
> View attachment 414448


Naaaah.....notice how both pilots are using the latest oxygen masks and I do know he keeps using his old one from his F-16 days. It could be that this is the jet that he might have flown in before.

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## Talon

Knuckles said:


> Naaaah.....notice how both pilots are using the latest oxygen masks and I do know he keeps using his old one from his F-16 days. It could be that this is the jet that he might have flown in before.


u are 100% right bro..


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## SQ8

Unless the JF-17 is fully able to take over the Mirage's standoff and low level dumb precision(the Zarrars have pretty high accuracy at low level with the Dumb retarded bombs) along with fully realizing its SEAD ability; the Mirage is here to stay. 
Nothing rides smoother at 100ft like a delta and the mirage is pristine in that. 

The block-2s and some of the later build Block-1s can deploy the Chinese glide bombs but we dont have that many in stock to really call them an operational capability. So far neither the F-16 nor the JF-17 has anything in its inventory like the H-2 and RAAD so just to keep that capacity the Mirages are important.

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## denel

Oscar said:


> Unless the JF-17 is fully able to take over the Mirage's standoff and low level dumb precision(the Zarrars have pretty high accuracy at low level with the Dumb retarded bombs) along with fully realizing its SEAD ability; the Mirage is here to stay.
> Nothing rides smoother at 100ft like a delta and the mirage is pristine in that.
> 
> The block-2s and some of the later build Block-1s can deploy the Chinese glide bombs but we dont have that many in stock to really call them an operational capability. So far neither the F-16 nor the JF-17 has anything in its inventory like the H-2 and RAAD so just to keep that capacity the Mirages are important.


I do concur, this appears to be heading in the direction of Mirage IV which had the sole role for deep strike.

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## SQ8

denel said:


> I do concur, this appears to be heading in the direction of Mirage IV which had the sole role for deep strike.


Id compare it to the role the Cheetah D had; focused on strike missions.
Although the Cheetah was a far more extensive change than the ROSE upgrade.

A bit of unconfirmed but generally corroborated(oxymoron) history of the 90s has folks coming over in Pakistan to essentially replicate what they had in the Cheetah for raptor the Mirage-III DP and VD here along with the H-2 program.

They apparently dropped in the same setup they had for the Cheetah in the backseat.

Suffice to say..
Ive seen a few and there have many springboks sighted roaming around in certain development complexes in Pakistan over the last 20-25 years

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## denel

Oscar said:


> Id compare it to the role the Cheetah D had; focused on strike missions.
> Although the Cheetah was a far more extensive change than the ROSE upgrade.
> 
> A bit of unconfirmed but generally corroborated(oxymoron) history of the 90s has folks coming over in Pakistan to essentially replicate what they had in the Cheetah for raptor the Mirage-III DP and VD here along with the H-2 program.
> 
> They apparently dropped in the same setup they had for the Cheetah in the backseat.
> 
> Suffice to say..
> Ive seen a few and there have many springboks sighted roaming around in certain development complexes in Pakistan over the last 20-25 years


You took words out of my mouth. We were trying to get the buccaneers taken out of regular roles and they were specifically for deep strike if needed and Cheetah D were to handle the rest of the missions.
Cheetah had major changes in it and a lot moved over from the Lavi project; many key technologies were much ahead of their time and definitely as you put it ahead of ROSE program. ROSE saw a lot of learnings and Atlas personnel working to make IFR, radio comms, Raptor etc; a very close cloning where possible except for the deltas/hms and many others which could not be brought across.

indeed cheetahs love springboks

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## Windjammer



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## SQ8

denel said:


> You took words out of my mouth. We were trying to get the buccaneers taken out of regular roles and they were specifically for deep strike if needed and Cheetah D were to handle the rest of the missions.
> Cheetah had major changes in it and a lot moved over from the Lavi project; many key technologies were much ahead of their time and definitely as you put it ahead of ROSE program. ROSE saw a lot of learnings and Atlas personnel working to make IFR, radio comms, Raptor etc; a very close cloning where possible except for the deltas/hms and many others which could not be brought across.
> 
> indeed cheetahs love springboks


Which is why when the ROSE mirages are derided as obsolete I always caution to not underestimate their ability to put ordanance on target with precision and accuracy. They were the original test beds for Pakistan for everything tinkered at home.

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## messiach

Correct, specially rose2. Little credit should go to Musaf Mir team. 


Oscar said:


> They were the original test beds for Pakistan for everything tinkered at home.


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## SQ8

messiach said:


> Correct, specially rose2. Little credit should go to Musaf Mir team.


That team was the cream of the PAF from the past 20 years; it a loss few can comprehend

Some of the assertiveness that @MastanKhan gripes about was lost because a Fokker pilot wanted to show off to the Chief

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> That team was the cream of the PAF from the past 20 years; it a loss few can comprehend
> 
> Some of the assertiveness that @MastanKhan gripes about was lost because a Fokker pilot wanted to show off to the Chief


It's a huge shame. Even after retirement, the likes of Mushaf Ali Mir might have still been useful for stewarding initiatives such as Kamra Aviation City, AvDI and others.

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## Torbat Khan

these bird had their days but its time to focus on jft

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## Dazzler

The mere integration of Raptor 1 and 2 in ROSE mirages proves how deeply the South Africans were involved in the program. 

Regarding Atlas Cheetah, at least 4 cheetah aircraft made their way to Pakistan in early 2000s.

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## Incog_nito

When PAF is going to retire Mirage-III-V?


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## denel

Dazzler said:


> The mere integration of Raptor 1 and 2 in ROSE mirages proves how deeply the South Africans were involved in the program.
> 
> Regarding Atlas Cheetah, at least 4 cheetah aircraft made their way to Pakistan in early 2000s.


Yes, they were deeply involved. I am not sure if aircraft made the way there. Someone would have caught a shot of them.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Yes, they were deeply involved. I am not sure if aircraft made the way there. Someone would have caught a shot of them.


The PAF bought several Cheetahs, but for the wings and other parts (in order to rebuild frames for the ROSE II or III).


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## messiach

Concur.



Oscar said:


> Id compare it to the role the Cheetah D had; focused on strike missions.
> Although the Cheetah was a far more extensive change than the ROSE upgrade.
> 
> A bit of unconfirmed but generally corroborated(oxymoron) history of the 90s has folks coming over in Pakistan to essentially replicate what they had in the Cheetah for raptor the Mirage-III DP and VD here along with the H-2 program.
> 
> They apparently dropped in the same setup they had for the Cheetah in the backseat.
> 
> Suffice to say..
> Ive seen a few and there have many springboks sighted roaming around in certain development complexes in Pakistan over the last 20-25 years


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## khanasifm

Can you Id the sqn patch of pilots ?

Last raad launch Chinese media stated it was from jf-17 as launch platform but ispr nor PAC disclosed anything unlike previous launches where mirage was disclosed as launch platform nor the video showed the launch platform


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## Ahmet Pasha

#9 Griffins most likely.


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## fatman17



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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 418255
> 
> 
> Can you Id the sqn patch of pilots ?
> 
> Last raad launch Chinese media stated it was from jf-17 as launch platform but ispr nor PAC disclosed anything unlike previous launches where mirage was disclosed as launch platform nor the video showed the launch platform


The pilot nearest the camera is former OC 9 Squadron. F-16 unit.

*The old bird still has plenty of life in her.*

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## Stephen Cohen

Windjammer said:


> The old bird still has plenty of life in her.



In War anything that can drop a BOMB on the enemy is very useful 
Provided it comes back safely


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## Windjammer

Stephen Cohen said:


> In War anything that can drop a BOMB on the enemy is very useful
> Provided it comes back safely


In the case of PAF Mirages, they can also carry and launch ALCMs.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF bought several Cheetahs, but for the wings and other parts (in order to rebuild frames for the ROSE II or III).


Noted - was away as we are harvesting right now.

There were several manufacturing units we had installed at Altas to build wings, parts etc, why would you want entire aircraft unless it was older wings? What is odd, the canards and revised wing structure dont appear to have found their way into ROSE; that would have meant newer flight system controls. I guess it was a matter of funding, time and scope of changes to meet project timelines. The other odd bit, does the RoSE still have the original Atar 9C or upgraded to 9K? We had licence to manufacture 9K which would have benefited PAF as these were made for Cheetah D as well as F1. I would have loved to see Cheetah resurrected in PAF as it was possible then but time is long gone.

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## khanasifm

Paf mirage with Saaf supplies wing https://goo.gl/images/VVgdoV

Wings bought from saaf still in saaf camouflage scheme 

https://goo.gl/images/nQ176v


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Noted - was away as we are harvesting right now.
> 
> There were several manufacturing units we had installed at Altas to build wings, parts etc, why would you want entire aircraft unless it was older wings? What is odd, the canards and revised wing structure dont appear to have found their way into ROSE; that would have meant newer flight system controls. I guess it was a matter of funding, time and scope of changes to meet project timelines. The other odd bit, does the RoSE still have the original Atar 9C or upgraded to 9K? We had licence to manufacture 9K which would have benefited PAF as these were made for Cheetah D as well as F1. I would have loved to see Cheetah resurrected in PAF as it was possible then but time is long gone.


IIRC France sold a ton of new or lightly used ATAR 9Cs to the PAF for a relatively low cost. The MRF at Kamra was also licensed to manufacture specific ATAR 9C parts.

Indeed, attempting to expand the scope of Mirage work between the two countries would have been very interesting. Perhaps continue experimenting with turbofan integration, using new flight control systems, or copying IAI's Kfir Block 60 by integrating an AESA radar?

All that said, I think there may be a shot at bilateral cooperation. Pakistan is seeking its own 5th-gen fighter (Project Azm), and perhaps Denel et. al could be asked to participate (be it as partners or on service contractors) with engineering and industry support? It may not be focused, but specific strands of expertise in South Africa could be key ingredients?

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC France sold a ton of new or lightly used ATAR 9Cs to the PAF for a relatively low cost. The MRF at Kamra was also licensed to manufacture specific ATAR 9C parts.
> 
> Indeed, attempting to expand the scope of Mirage work between the two countries would have been very interesting. Perhaps continue experimenting with turbofan integration, using new flight control systems, or copying IAI's Kfir Block 60 by integrating an AESA radar?
> 
> All that said, I think there may be a shot at bilateral cooperation. Pakistan is seeking its own 5th-gen fighter (Project Azm), and perhaps Denel et. al could be asked to participate (be it as partners or on service contractors) with engineering and industry support? It may not be focused, but specific strands of expertise in South Africa could be key ingredients?


Yes back then it was a great opportunity for Altas (it was part of Armscor) to have partnered and worked on converting all Mirages to Cheetah blueprints; we only look back. At least the radio systems i had worked on designing still lives on your aircrafts.
While JF-17 program continues on, it does appear that a upgraded Cheetah would definitely help fill in the gaps using RD-93 engines; i dont think either there is enough funds on PAF or focus on R&D for supplementary aircraft like Cheetah which could supplant or backup f-16s.A lot of performance could have been had if ROSE was merged up completely with the cheetah. Not that I am discrediting the French, but they are not exactly atuned to taking an older airframe to a newer level - they want to sell a replacement. Ingeniuity runs in our blood.

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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> Noted - was away as we are harvesting right now.
> 
> There were several manufacturing units we had installed at Altas to build wings, parts etc, why would you want entire aircraft unless it was older wings? What is odd, the canards and revised wing structure dont appear to have found their way into ROSE; that would have meant newer flight system controls. I guess it was a matter of funding, time and scope of changes to meet project timelines. The other odd bit, does the RoSE still have the original Atar 9C or upgraded to 9K? We had licence to manufacture 9K which would have benefited PAF as these were made for Cheetah D as well as F1. I would have loved to see Cheetah resurrected in PAF as it was possible then but time is long gone.


Hi what kind of radar is using by saaf in cheetahs and F1 AESA ? 
Thx


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Windjammer said:


> In the case of PAF Mirages, they can also carry and launch ALCMs.


These ALCMs are like beautiful "Indian Brides"! They are decorated with all the flashy ornaments and gaudy clothing, and are showered with lavish dowries!! And, after leaving dad's home they follow their significant halves even to the "funeral fire"!!!!

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## Windjammer

HAKIKAT said:


> These ALCMs are like beautiful "Indian Brides"! They are decorated with all the flashy ornaments and gaudy clothing, and are showered with lavish dowries!! And, after leaving dad's home they follow their significant halves even to the "funeral fire"!!!!


What you know, they even light the fires and save all the wood for the funeral pyre.

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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi what kind of radar is using by saaf in cheetahs and F1 AESA ?
> Thx


It is ELM-2032 if my memory is correct; it was a long long time ago. Specifically chosen for its excellent performance overall.


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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> It is ELM-2032 if my memory is correct; it was a long long time ago. Specifically chosen for its excellent performance overall.


Hi thx for your information


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## SSGcommandoPAK

Guys please visit this Facebook page PAF Mirages .... best page for Mirage lovers . 
https://www.facebook.com/PAFMirages/

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## denel

See the difference in take off time.

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## Basel

Stephen Cohen said:


> In War anything that can drop a BOMB on the enemy is very useful
> Provided it comes back safely



PAF is ready for one way missions if things get that bad, only thing matters is completing the assigned mission.

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## Stephen Cohen

Basel said:


> PAF a ready for one way missions if things get that bad, only thing matters is completing the assigned mission.



OK ; your wish would be fulfilled 

But still Mirage 3 / 5 cannot get past our air defences and CAP fighters

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## Basel

Stephen Cohen said:


> OK ; your wish would be fulfilled
> 
> But still Mirage 3 / 5 cannot get past our air defences and CAP fighters



They will after your AD is dented where needed and to do that there are plenty standoff options.

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## denel

Stephen Cohen said:


> OK ; your wish would be fulfilled
> 
> But still Mirage 3 / 5 cannot get past our air defences and CAP fighters


That is very short sighted assumption, that is what standoff capabilities are there for.

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## Cookie Monster

Stephen Cohen said:


> OK ; your wish would be fulfilled
> 
> But still Mirage 3 / 5 cannot get past our air defences and CAP fighters


No weapon is absolute...weaknesses exist in all. If air defense systems were so perfect then nations wouldn't need to invest so heavily in building up their air forces.

There are many counters to air defense systems.
1) Destroy the air defense system before it detects u(stand off weapons/or depending on terrain could be accomplished by flying low to evade detection/stealth fighters)
2) Jamming the radar of the air defense system to get close enough to destroy it(Wild Weasel types of jets)
3) This last option isn't widely adopted/deployed and is rather a new approach. I forget the name but essentially it is a small UAV like system that gives the radar signature of an actual jet to the enemy radar and can be used in a number of ways(decoy/oversaturation/cost prohibitive).

U should know that a jet doesn't go alone on a mission. If Mirages were to be used for a strike role in an area with air defense systems they will be escorted by the likes of F16 and JF17 to engage IAF interceptors.

In any case...if the situation ever comes up where the Mirages, relying solely on their own capability, have to strike in an area well defended by air defense systems they would be limited to mostly option 1(some combination of stand off weapons and radar evasion) and maybe option 2 depending on the EW capability of Mirages and the jamming resistance of the air defense system it is facing. This is however very unlikely...and mostly just wishful thinking that mirages will operate alone.

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## khanasifm

denel said:


> See the difference in take off time.



Jas39 was designed to take off and land from app 800 meters runway most Modern Ac with thrust to weight ratio of app 1 are, mirage in clean configuration its ttw ratio is .68 and if you add load then it goes down plus comparing 50 design with 90s almost 40 years , there is no comparison even f7s has better ratio and take off specs not sure what so special here 

As for as your defenses I do not know what are ur defenses yes everyone and the world knows iaf defenses  
Especially those who work in the industry and serve various customers and deal with them frequently

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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Jas39 was designed to take off and land from app 800 meters runway most Modern Ac with thrust to weight ratio of app 1 are, mirage in clean configuration its ttw ratio is .68 and if you add load then it goes down plus comparing 50 design with 90s almost 40 years , there is no comparison even f7s has better ratio and take off specs not sure what so special here
> 
> As for as your defenses I do not know what are ur defenses yes everyone and the world knows iaf defenses
> Especially those who work in the industry and serve various customers and deal with them frequently


Absolutely for the first part; just out of interest comparison.


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## araz

Stephen Cohen said:


> OK ; your wish would be fulfilled
> 
> But still Mirage 3 / 5 cannot get past our air defences and CAP fighters


Sir,
I kow tow to your superior national intellect and prowess.Pakistan will indeed crumble at the feet of Indian might. However please consider you will have a lot more Bhookas and nangas to feed and clothe and at the moment you cant seem to be able to do that to your owqn.Do you really want to add more work for your struggling Janta of do gooders.
Regards
The thread is about m3/M5s please keep to topic. 
A

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## Windjammer



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Cookie Monster said:


> No weapon is absolute...weaknesses exist in all. If air defense systems were so perfect then nations wouldn't need to invest so heavily in building up their air forces.
> 
> There are many counters to air defense systems.
> 1) Destroy the air defense system before it detects u(stand off weapons/or depending on terrain could be accomplished by flying low to evade detection/stealth fighters)
> 2) Jamming the radar of the air defense system to get close enough to destroy it(Wild Weasel types of jets)
> 3) This last option isn't widely adopted/deployed and is rather a new approach. I forget the name but essentially it is a small UAV like system that gives the radar signature of an actual jet to the enemy radar and can be used in a number of ways(decoy/oversaturation/cost prohibitive).
> 
> U should know that a jet doesn't go alone on a mission. If Mirages were to be used for a strike role in an area with air defense systems they will be escorted by the likes of F16 and JF17 to engage IAF interceptors.
> 
> In any case...if the situation ever comes up where the Mirages, relying solely on their own capability, have to strike in an area well defended by air defense systems they would be limited to mostly option 1(some combination of stand off weapons and radar evasion) and maybe option 2 depending on the EW capability of Mirages and the jamming resistance of the air defense system it is facing. This is however very unlikely...and mostly just wishful thinking that mirages will operate alone.


Re: decoy UAVs you're referring to the MALD. It's like taking an ALCM, but programming it to loiter and emit either radar transmissions (to alert passive sensors) or conduct it's own DRFM-jamming. But the long-term key to those is autonomous operation, which delves into attritable UAVs and UCAVs.

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## JamD

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 423709


Just edited your picture to fix the perspective best I could.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Basel said:


> PAF is ready for one way missions if things get that bad, only thing matters is completing the assigned mission.


And, they have proved it already time and again...



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Re: decoy UAVs you're referring to the MALD. It's like taking an ALCM, but programming it to loiter and emit either radar transmissions (to alert passive sensors) or conduct it's own DRFM-jamming. But the long-term key to those is autonomous operation, which delves into attritable UAVs and UCAVs.


In my very limited understanding, such "excursions" and "gymnastics" are possible only if full access and ability to smartly and intelligently play with the both hardware and software of such sophisticated systems exist!!! And, the folks have that dare devil "out of the box" mindset with the ability to work dead hard with _Iman_ and _Ihlas_!!!! It's like challenging the Eagle while others perceive you to be a sparrow!! Pak is damn lucky to have that rare combination and opportunity....



Cookie Monster said:


> No weapon is absolute...weaknesses exist in all. If air defense systems were so perfect then nations wouldn't need to invest so heavily in building up their air forces.
> 
> There are many counters to air defense systems.
> 1) Destroy the air defense system before it detects u(stand off weapons/or depending on terrain could be accomplished by flying low to evade detection/stealth fighters)
> 2) Jamming the radar of the air defense system to get close enough to destroy it(Wild Weasel types of jets)
> 3) This last option isn't widely adopted/deployed and is rather a new approach. I forget the name but essentially it is a small UAV like system that gives the radar signature of an actual jet to the enemy radar and can be used in a number of ways(decoy/oversaturation/cost prohibitive).
> 
> U should know that a jet doesn't go alone on a mission. If Mirages were to be used for a strike role in an area with air defense systems they will be escorted by the likes of F16 and JF17 to engage IAF interceptors.
> 
> In any case...if the situation ever comes up where the Mirages, relying solely on their own capability, have to strike in an area well defended by air defense systems they would be limited to mostly option 1(some combination of stand off weapons and radar evasion) and maybe option 2 depending on the EW capability of Mirages and the jamming resistance of the air defense system it is facing. This is however very unlikely...and mostly just wishful thinking that mirages will operate alone.


Couldn't just stop interrupting. As for EW, the Turkish folks love it!!! In the very first class of sophomore-level electromagnetics, my _Rahmetli_ Professor was talking about EW, and how one can earn a PhD by working on any aspect of it at my alma mater!!!!

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## Cookie Monster

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Re: decoy UAVs you're referring to the MALD. It's like taking an ALCM, but programming it to loiter and emit either radar transmissions (to alert passive sensors) or conduct it's own DRFM-jamming. But the long-term key to those is autonomous operation, which delves into attritable UAVs and UCAVs.


Yes it is indeed MALD that I couldn't remember at the time. I had come across this a while back and I had the same thought about having MALD like UAVs being part of a bigger swarm which will also have "kamikaze" drones(with targeting systems like radar homing or IR seeker etc along with an explosive payload) and "brain" drones(for target acquisition, detecting the enemy radar through passive sensors, datalink capabilities, etc). This theoretical swarm would be able to effectively destroy even the most advanced(currently) air defense systems in the world. It would also make it cost prohibitive to rely on SAM systems for the enemy. I started a thread on this and tagged u for ur feedback. If u have time please dive in deeper into this topic on that thread(the link is below)

MALD





UAV swarm
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/china-launches-record-breaking-uav-swarm.503463/#post-9603953

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## khanasifm

Neo news full program on mirages ?? Not sure if it's available online


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## Signalian

Cookie Monster said:


> In any case...if the situation ever comes up where the Mirages, relying solely on their own capability, have to strike in an area well defended by air defense systems they would be limited to mostly option 1(some combination of stand off weapons and radar evasion) and maybe option 2 depending on the EW capability of Mirages and the jamming resistance of the air defense system it is facing. This is however very unlikely...and mostly just wishful thinking that mirages will operate alone.



The ROSE upgraded should be capable of operating alone if need arises.

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## khanasifm

Top cover can be provided by jf or f16 why do you think paf sends mirage with jf and f16 to exercises to pitch against j11/suxx and saudi f15 tornado and typhoon

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## umair86pk

With standoff capabilities Indian airdefences will be taken out first by ROSE Mirages also they can take out air defences with AMR-1 Anti Radiation Missiles. With SEAD and Standoff capability Mirages are still potent platforms.

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## Code_Geass

khanasifm said:


> Neo news full program on mirages ?? Not sure if it's available online


 it was only 15 mins long..


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## ziaulislam

Cookie Monster said:


> Yes it is indeed MALD that I couldn't remember at the time. I had come across this a while back and I had the same thought about having MALD like UAVs being part of a bigger swarm which will also have "kamikaze" drones(with targeting systems like radar homing or IR seeker etc along with an explosive payload) and "brain" drones(for target acquisition, detecting the enemy radar through passive sensors, datalink capabilities, etc). This theoretical swarm would be able to effectively destroy even the most advanced(currently) air defense systems in the world. It would also make it cost prohibitive to rely on SAM systems for the enemy. I started a thread on this and tagged u for ur feedback. If u have time please dive in deeper into this topic on that thread(the link is below)
> 
> MALD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UAV swarm
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/china-launches-record-breaking-uav-swarm.503463/#post-9603953


a concept that pakistan need to work on, do a JV with turkey/china, they are already working on many of these

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## Windjammer



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## Dazzler



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## JamD

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 427135


Thanks for the high res! Which show is this from? The pictures next to it also seem interesting.

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## Signalian

cb4 said:


>



Thats a Considerable payload for a single engined delta wing plane, no wonder Mirage is still around in PAF.

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## salman-1

That's awesome if still the aged airframe allows it to carry

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

salman-1 said:


> View attachment 427704
> View attachment 427706
> That's awesome if still the aged airframe allows it to carry


Wonderful its look like pure attacker/bomber , if our mirrages can carry such load thn jf17 is not the replacemnt of mirrages even if its a advance multirole aircraft

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## khanasifm

With precision attack capabilities now day a few bombs do what in the past Needed multiple attempts as well a larger load, c130 and UVA now lasing

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## CHI RULES

khanasifm said:


> Top cover can be provided by jf or f16 why do you think paf sends mirage with jf and f16 to exercises to pitch against j11/suxx and saudi f15 tornado and typhoon



Sir problem with Mirages is not abt their capabilities but their age. Which shows now and then in shape of losses especially Mirage IIIs. Every thing has expiry in this world no matter how much injections are inserted. Our Mirages have passed through various overhauls and they lack A2A capabilities especially having no BVR missiles. We are compelled to use them due to lack of resources.

At least instead of advocating in support of old jets it should be priority to replace them as PAF has plans to do at earliest. Only Mirage Vs have better record in this regard.

In worst case scenario if we are planning to push Mirage-III, F7Ps for longer time then we should install some sort of modern safety/ejection systems to save lives of our brave pilots.

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## salman-1

PAF should replace all Mirages and F-7 types with J-10c and Jf-17 thunders. What's less in J-10 than Mirages n F7s

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## Falcon26

The J-10C is an ideal replacement for the Mirages. Obviously, with as much western sub-systems as possible. Will resolve the Ra’ad ground clearance issue as well.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> The J-10C is an ideal replacement for the Mirages. Obviously, with as much western sub-systems as possible. Will resolve the Ra’ad ground clearance issue as well.


IMO...if the PAF sought the J-10C or J-11B/D, it'd be as-is but with ability to integrate Ra'ad and CM-302. Since these fighters would be standalone (can't link to F-16s), a large number (3 or 4 squadrons) would be necessary to build a sizable offensive force. In this sense, medium weights such as the J-10C (or MiG-35 from Russia) would be more feasible (than Flankers).

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO...if the PAF sought the J-10C or J-11B/D, it'd be as-is but with ability to integrate Ra'ad and CM-302. Since these fighters would be standalone (can't link to F-16s), a large number (3 or 4 squadrons) would be necessary to build a sizable offensive force. In this sense, medium weights such as the J-10C (or MiG-35 from Russia) would be more feasible (than Flankers).



Not sure what is your source? Recommend reading paf official history book


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Not sure what is your source? Recommend reading paf official history book


IMO = "in my opinion" ... quoting another opinion.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 423709


Looks like the Eagle is showing her claws - this time minions of Babur Han!!!! I think they're enough for your adversaries....

Every time I think about these cruise missiles and the miniaturized warheads as their perfect companions it gives me a thrill of ecstasy (folks spend fortunes to get into that level of "high")!!!!! Not to mention the anti-radiation SOMs!! And, they are all manufactured at the back garages in tons at the cost of tin pots!!! And, the way they can be delivered - literally from the narrow streets of any given _Mahalle_ in any village/town/city, or planes flying from any patch of a highway within Pak!!!! And, the Indian planners have to chalk out defenses being at the receiving end!!! No wonder they never fail to resort to the "Last Afgan" or "Army of Apes".....

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## Dazzler



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## Khafee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO...if the PAF sought the J-10C or J-11B/D, it'd be as-is but with ability to integrate Ra'ad and CM-302. Since these fighters would be standalone (can't link to F-16s), a large number (3 or 4 squadrons) would be necessary to build a sizable offensive force. In this sense, medium weights such as the J-10C (or MiG-35 from Russia) would be more feasible (than Flankers).


I don't understand, why wouldn't the J10 or J11, have data link capability like the JF?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Mirage Just needs a Avionics (Radar / Digital Cockpit) upgrade otherwise the plane/payload is capable to holding it's own


Turkey has software for F16 and they manufacture all the parts for their F16 Combat planes (Hardware modules) and Pakistan already has choices for radars

I was of opinion to buy the Software from Turkey enhance it for Mirage

















Now that we have 100 F16 and 100 JF17 Thunder , we should send all Mirage to Turkey for Modernization and installation of modern hardware and software that goes with it




Strip out all hardware
Install brand new software 

Install new Turkish / Chinese / Pakistani Visual Tools

We can afford to send 50-60 planes for Modernization to Turkey Engineering


Mirage2000 had some modernized dispay and electrical systems
and there is no reason that why mirage cannot also go thru a digital upgrading and achive same benefits









My suggestion would be outsource Mirage Modernization to 2017 Standard with Help from Turkey or France

> New Hardware
> New computer for Jet
> New Software (Turkish)
> New Digital Tools from Turkey
> Need to also get Turkish Sniper Pods with upgrade

New Hardware/Sofware combination will make the whole Mirage fleet Interlinkable with our modern fleet






I mean all these Gadgets are available fro Turkey just need to send 40-50 Mirage for Moderniation , Turkey owns all rights to the Hardware/ Software 

And out a Brand new Chinese radar in planes

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Khafee said:


> I don't understand, why wouldn't the J10 or J11, have data link capability like the JF?


The JF-17 has less range, so it's unlikely that it'd accompany a heavy very far into enemy territory. Sure, LACM and other SOW deployment would help, but there's a 300-550 km cap. Pulling further would require a bigger platform.

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## khanasifm

PAC has Co designed hdd for jf with Singapore technologies which is now part of jf avionics

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## CHI RULES

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Mirage Just needs a Avionics (Radar / Digital Cockpit) upgrade otherwise the plane/payload is capable to holding it's own
> 
> 
> Turkey has software for F16 and they manufacture all the parts for their F16 Combat planes (Hardware modules) and Pakistan already has choices for radars
> 
> I was of opinion to buy the Software from Turkey enhance it for Mirage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now that we have 100 F16 and 100 JF17 Thunder , we should send all Mirage to Turkey for Modernization and installation of modern hardware and software that goes with it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strip out all hardware
> Install brand new software
> 
> Install new Turkish / Chinese / Pakistani Visual Tools
> 
> We can afford to send 50-60 planes for Modernization to Turkey Engineering
> 
> 
> Mirage2000 had some modernized dispay and electrical systems
> and there is no reason that why mirage cannot also go thru a digital upgrading and achive same benefits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestion would be outsource Mirage Modernization to 2017 Standard with Help from Turkey or France
> 
> > New Hardware
> > New computer for Jet
> > New Software (Turkish)
> > New Digital Tools from Turkey
> > Need to also get Turkish Sniper Pods with upgrade
> 
> New Hardware/Sofware combination will make the whole Mirage fleet Interlinkable with our modern fleet
> 
> View attachment 431082
> 
> 
> I mean all these Gadgets are available fro Turkey just need to send 40-50 Mirage for Moderniation , Turkey owns all rights to the Hardware/ Software
> 
> And out a Brand new Chinese radar in planes



The upgrades you have suggested are worthwhile but most important thing is engine required to be changed as Pak Mirage engines have already passed through number of overhauls. Further the safety standards i.e ejection system in both F7PG and Mirage requires improvement.

In other words these birds require overall re built it is better to let them go and induct any Chinese Medium/Heavy weight fighter to replace them.


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## Khafee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The JF-17 has less range, so it's unlikely that it'd accompany a heavy very far into enemy territory. Sure, LACM and other SOW deployment would help, but there's a 300-550 km cap. Pulling further would require a bigger platform.


That was not my question.

My Question was, since the JF has a very capable data link, why wouldn't newer platforms have them as well?

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## HRK

-=-=-===-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RAAF *A3-48*




Mirage *A3-48* RAAF Diamond Jubilee Scheme1981




*A3-48* in PAF boneyard

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## princefaisal

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Mirage Just needs a Avionics (Radar / Digital Cockpit) upgrade otherwise the plane/payload is capable to holding it's own
> 
> 
> Turkey has software for F16 and they manufacture all the parts for their F16 Combat planes (Hardware modules) and Pakistan already has choices for radars
> 
> I was of opinion to buy the Software from Turkey enhance it for Mirage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now that we have 100 F16 and 100 JF17 Thunder , we should send all Mirage to Turkey for Modernization and installation of modern hardware and software that goes with it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strip out all hardware
> Install brand new software
> 
> Install new Turkish / Chinese / Pakistani Visual Tools
> 
> We can afford to send 50-60 planes for Modernization to Turkey Engineering
> 
> 
> Mirage2000 had some modernized dispay and electrical systems
> and there is no reason that why mirage cannot also go thru a digital upgrading and achive same benefits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestion would be outsource Mirage Modernization to 2017 Standard with Help from Turkey or France
> 
> > New Hardware
> > New computer for Jet
> > New Software (Turkish)
> > New Digital Tools from Turkey
> > Need to also get Turkish Sniper Pods with upgrade
> 
> New Hardware/Sofware combination will make the whole Mirage fleet Interlinkable with our modern fleet
> 
> View attachment 431082
> 
> 
> I mean all these Gadgets are available fro Turkey just need to send 40-50 Mirage for Moderniation , Turkey owns all rights to the Hardware/ Software
> 
> And out a Brand new Chinese radar in planes



JF-17 block I should also adopt these turkish gadets.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Take Mirage Offline 25 Units at time , Total to 100 Units

Send them to Turkey for Modernization with Turkish

Display Units (*They sell commercially already built item*) 

Radars (Install a Latest Radar from last 2-3 years ago) 

Helmets with Data Display Visors 

Sniper PODS (*They sell commercially already built item*)
>Replace Bulky Old Mirage Dashboard
>*Remove all the Computers/Hardware units based on older technology*
>Install brand new items from Turkey Hardware
> Put Software Turkey made for Operation (Minor customization made be done for Mirage)

Since Turkish Weapon's system are all European standard we should not have any issue integrating French Missiles we have in stock back into Platform.

They have their technology demonstrator already in action






The Hardware will enable us to integrate more interesting toys for Pilots

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## Basel

CHI RULES said:


> The upgrades you have suggested are worthwhile but most important thing is engine required to be changed as Pak Mirage engines have already passed through number of overhauls. Further the safety standards i.e ejection system in both F7PG and Mirage requires improvement.
> 
> In other words these birds require overall re built it is better to let them go and induct any Chinese Medium/Heavy weight fighter to replace them.



The big question is can PAF Mirages be upgraded like Israeli Kfir block-60??

Kfir block-60 upgrade shows that with current tech old birds life can be extended and systems upgraded if it's needed.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Of course 70% of efficiency of a jet is the avionics / weapons on board and Technology 30% mechanical advantage like Engine and Dog fight is also a factor no doubt

But we live in Age or technology

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## GriffinsRule

There is not enough life left in the airframes of the Mirages to be worth any further upgrades to be cost effective.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Khafee said:


> That was not my question.
> 
> My Question was, since the JF has a very capable data link, why wouldn't newer platforms have them as well?


I never said Eastern platforms can't have Link-17 or TDL in general...I said they probably can't use Link-16 (US end-user restrictions).

The goal should be to further leverage the PAF's strong F-16 fleet. For that one needs Link-16 so that they can interoperate with the F-16.

Yes, the J-10/Flanker and F-16 pilots can communicate by normal radio, but on two different TDL (Link-17 & Link-16) they wouldn't have the seamless network interoperability of the F-16/Typhoon on Link-16, e.g. the F-16s can switch-off their radars and rely on the T3's AESA radar, thereby reducing their own detectability while also boosting their ECCM. The East/F-16 duo without AEW&C (in enemy territory) would be disjointed in comparison.

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## Khafee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I never said Eastern platforms can't have Link-17 or TDL in general...I said they probably can't use Link-16 (US end-user restrictions).
> 
> The goal should be to further leverage the PAF's strong F-16 fleet. For that one needs Link-16 so that they can interoperate with the F-16.
> 
> Yes, the J-10/Flanker and F-16 pilots can communicate by normal radio, but on two different TDL (Link-17 & Link-16) they wouldn't have the seamless network interoperability of the F-16/Typhoon on Link-16, e.g. the F-16s can switch-off their radars and rely on the T3's AESA radar, thereby reducing their own detectability while also boosting their ECCM. The East/F-16 duo without AEW&C (in enemy territory) would be disjointed in comparison.


Thank You for the clarification, appreciate it.

Best Regards

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Stolen from instagram


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## TheDarkKnight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I never said Eastern platforms can't have Link-17 or TDL in general...I said they probably can't use Link-16 (US end-user restrictions).
> 
> The goal should be to further leverage the PAF's strong F-16 fleet. For that one needs Link-16 so that they can interoperate with the F-16.
> 
> Yes, the J-10/Flanker and F-16 pilots can communicate by normal radio, but on two different TDL (Link-17 & Link-16) they wouldn't have the seamless network interoperability of the F-16/Typhoon on Link-16, e.g. the F-16s can switch-off their radars and rely on the T3's AESA radar, thereby reducing their own detectability while also boosting their ECCM. The East/F-16 duo without AEW&C (in enemy territory) would be disjointed in comparison.



Shouldnt Pak prefer integration with the main work horse i.e. JF 17 than the <100 F16s which seem difficult to get and upgrade due to geo politics?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TheDarkKnight said:


> Shouldnt Pak prefer integration with the main work horse i.e. JF 17 than the <100 F16s which seem difficult to get and upgrade due to geo politics?


The JF-17s can't readily accompany a strike fighter for long-range engagements. Even if you factor in AAR and fuel pods, you'd extend your bigger assets (i.e. F-16s). That said, having the JF-17 does free the PAF from committing the F-16s (and any plus-one fighter) from defensive and near-proximity engagements. One can preserve flight hours, spare parts and maintain fewer numbers of high end fighters thanks to the JF-17.


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## Incog_nito

Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Loved it


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## airmarshal

Which Mirage is this one?

Anyone has an idea which country it was bought from ? Lebanon or Australia?







What is the difference between Mirage III and V?

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## Talon

airmarshal said:


> Which Mirage is this one?
> 
> Anyone has an idea which country it was bought from ? Lebanon or Australia?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the difference between Mirage III and V?


Mirage-VDD #04-002 Ex-Libyan..This aircraft crashed in 2014 taking lives of the pilots.

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## airmarshal

khanasifm said:


> Gbu32, 38, plus latest version of laser guided dual mode GPS cu m laser gbu12, 24 and finally bunker buster 109- paf opted for these as they are less expensive jsow- was too expensive and RAAD plus h2/h4 are cheaper and available same is the case for 9x 500k-per round vs 100k 9m paf prefered paying 500-per aim120s may be in future these will be bought



Most likely in the event of war, the US ccan block satellite signals over South Asia for PAF fighters. Then PAF wont be able to use JDAMs.



Hodor said:


> Mirage-VDD #04-002 Ex-Libyan..This aircraft crashed in 2014 taking lives of the pilots.



So sorry to read this!



Hodor said:


> Mirage-VDD #04-002 Ex-Libyan..This aircraft crashed in 2014 taking lives of the pilots.



So sorry to read this!


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## khanasifm

airmarshal said:


> Most likely in the event of war, the US ccan block satellite signals over South Asia for PAF fighters. Then PAF wont be able to use JDAMs.
> 
> 
> 
> So sorry to read this!
> 
> 
> 
> So sorry to read this!



Ok 

GPS is just add on laser and ins are still there anyway too much south Asia’s drama and theories as usual


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The JF-17s can't readily accompany a strike fighter for long-range engagements. Even if you factor in AAR and fuel pods, you'd extend your bigger assets (i.e. F-16s). That said, having the JF-17 does free the PAF from committing the F-16s (and any plus-one fighter) from defensive and near-proximity engagements. One can preserve flight hours, spare parts and maintain fewer numbers of high end fighters thanks to the JF-17.



i wounder why is that considering jf-17 internal fuel is 2400liters vs 3300liters of f-16 (without CFT)
three drop tanks in case of jf-17 would mean additional 3200 liters

f-16 with 3 tanks will carry 3300+1100+1400+1400

i am not sure about ferry range of thunders but one can argue jf-17 with three tanks and 2 bvrs/2vwr can accompany an f-16 with no tanks or only/centerline tank(1100liters)/CFT(1700liters for both) and full weapon load out for strike missions

but still i think fuel is one thing block 3 needs to work on too, same as what gripen did

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

ziaulislam said:


> i wounder why is that considering jf-17 internal fuel is 2400liters vs 3300liters of f-16 (without CFT)
> three drop tanks in case of jf-17 would mean additional 3200 liters
> 
> f-16 with 3 tanks will carry 3300+1100+1400+1400
> 
> i am not sure about ferry range of thunders but one can argue jf-17 with three tanks and 2 bvrs/2vwr can accompany an f-16 with no tanks or only/centerline tank(1100liters)/CFT(1700liters for both) and full weapon load out for strike missions
> 
> but still i think fuel is one thing block 3 needs to work on too, same as what gripen did



I think jf17 has 3000 l8ter intrnal fuel (pac site )


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## airmarshal

khanasifm said:


> Ok
> 
> GPS is just add on laser and ins are still there anyway too much south Asia’s drama and theories as usual



Hmm. So why do Chinese and Russians dont use GPS?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan just upgrade the Mirage Radars to Vixen 1000E from Italy , and every one would be very happy

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## khanasifm

ziaulislam said:


> i wounder why is that considering jf-17 internal fuel is 2400liters vs 3300liters of f-16 (without CFT)
> three drop tanks in case of jf-17 would mean additional 3200 liters
> 
> f-16 with 3 tanks will carry 3300+1100+1400+1400
> 
> i am not sure about ferry range of thunders but one can argue jf-17 with three tanks and 2 bvrs/2vwr can accompany an f-16 with no tanks or only/centerline tank(1100liters)/CFT(1700liters for both) and full weapon load out for strike missions
> 
> but still i think fuel is one thing block 3 needs to work on too, same as what gripen did



Jf internal fuel is 5130 lbs or 3000 liters compared to f7 2300-2400 liters 

Mirage is same about 3000-3300 liters depending upon the model but mirage old engine is fuel gazzler compared to jf turbofan engine

F16 carries s about 6900-7000 lbs need to check or 5700-6000 lbs fuel internally

Per one article j-10 carries more fuel then f-16 with Cfts but combat range wise it’s still short leg also confirmed by paf previous chief as they wanted more range out of it 

Ferry range f-16 about 37-3800 with cft
J-10 3200 km and jf-17 3000 km tells you some comparison


http://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104505/f-16-fighting-falcon/


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## Danish saleem

HRK said:


> View attachment 431155
> 
> -=-=-===-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> RAAF *A3-48*
> View attachment 431162
> 
> Mirage *A3-48* RAAF Diamond Jubilee Scheme1981
> View attachment 431164
> 
> *A3-48* in PAF boneyard
> View attachment 431163



i think that 48 is now standing at Display in PAF Museum??


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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## HRK

Danish saleem said:


> i think that 48 is now standing at Display in PAF Museum??


I am not aware about this, if you could plz arrange a new pic of A-48 at display in PAF Museum it will be nice to see for all of us

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/



OPKC









Danish saleem said:


> i think that 48 is now standing at Display in PAF Museum??





HRK said:


> I am not aware about this, if you could plz arrange a new pic of A-48 at display in PAF Museum it will be nice to see for all of us



424

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## princefaisal

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan just upgrade the Mirage Radars to Vixen 1000E from Italy , and every one would be very happy


Really or joke?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

princefaisal said:


> Really or joke?


He's just giving a dream-scenario. But it wouldn't be that insane considering Israel more or less did the same thing with the Kfir (i.e. a relative of the Mirage III/5). The Kfir Block 60 uses the EL/M-2052 AESA radar.

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## HRK

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> He's just giving a dream-scenario. But it wouldn't be that insane considering Israel more or less did the same thing with the Kfir (i.e. a relative of the Mirage III/5). The Kfir Block 60 uses the EL/M-2052 AESA radar.



But with the rebuilt fuselage with zero flying hours conditions, which we obviously could not afford as it will be as much expensive as the building of new jet, so rather to go this way I think JF-17 is much better.
But 'fanboy' in me is urging me to state my wish to have Carver jet with latest AESA radar and avionics and high thrust engine from west/Italy to replace Mirage Jet in PAF .... hahaha
https://www.africandefence.net/project-carver-emerges-from-the-shadows/

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## Ahmet Pasha

Looks alot like tejas


HRK said:


> But with the rebuilt fuselage with zero flying hours conditions, which we obviously could not afford as it will be as much expensive as the building of new jet, so rather to go this way I think JF-17 is much better.
> But 'fanboy' in me is urging me to state my wish to have Carver jet with latest AESA radar and avionics and high thrust engine from west/Italy to replace Mirage Jet in PAF .... hahaha
> https://www.africandefence.net/project-carver-emerges-from-the-shadows/


----------



## MastanKhan

khanasifm said:


> Jf internal fuel is 5130 lbs or 3000 liters compared to f7 2300-2400 liters
> 
> Mirage is same about 3000-3300 liters depending upon the model but mirage old engine is fuel gazzler compared to jf turbofan engine
> 
> F16 carries s about 6900-7000 lbs need to check or 5700-6000 lbs fuel internally
> 
> Per one article j-10 carries more fuel then f-16 with Cfts but combat range wise it’s still short leg also confirmed by paf previous chief as they wanted more range out of it
> 
> Ferry range f-16 about 37-3800 with cft
> J-10 3200 km and jf-17 3000 km tells you some comparison
> 
> 
> http://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104505/f-16-fighting-falcon/



Hi,

And that means " WHAT "? What does it tells you?


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## Zarvan

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## khanasifm

Per paf history no other airforce has rebuilt mirage 3/5 PAst gv2, gv1 after first 1800 hours and gv2 for another 1200 hours total life 3000 hours PAK had developed with help of Oem or Oem participation mini Gv till it’s replaced with Jf in future some paf mirage will actually have had gv4  but speaking to someone in af mirage wings needed to be replace and after Australian package now pac has capability to refurbish old wings and put them back in supply chain expect mirages to fly till at least 2025

Pg with 2400-2600 total life will go first than mirages

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## Joe Shearer

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Looks alot like tejas



You have your specs on?


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## khanasifm

NTEL REPORT: Masters of Mirage maintenance
Alan Warnes goes behind the scenes at the Mirage Rebuild Factory at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.

Anything new in this report?

http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/the-magazine/view-issue/?issueID=7077


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## Army research

khanasifm said:


> NTEL REPORT: Masters of Mirage maintenance
> Alan Warnes goes behind the scenes at the Mirage Rebuild Factory at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra.
> 
> Anything new in this report?
> 
> http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/the-magazine/view-issue/?issueID=7077


I have the magazine , I'll read it tomorrow and inform if there is


----------



## jupiter2007

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Take Mirage Offline 25 Units at time , Total to 100 Units
> 
> Send them to Turkey for Modernization with Turkish
> 
> Display Units (*They sell commercially already built item*)
> 
> Radars (Install a Latest Radar from last 2-3 years ago)
> 
> Helmets with Data Display Visors
> 
> Sniper PODS (*They sell commercially already built item*)
> >Replace Bulky Old Mirage Dashboard
> >*Remove all the Computers/Hardware units based on older technology*
> >Install brand new items from Turkey Hardware
> > Put Software Turkey made for Operation (Minor customization made be done for Mirage)
> 
> Since Turkish Weapon's system are all European standard we should not have any issue integrating French Missiles we have in stock back into Platform.
> 
> They have their technology demonstrator already in action
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Hardware will enable us to integrate more interesting toys for Pilots



Pakistan should upgrade JF-17 block 1 with newer avionic and radar.
It's not worth spending more money on Mirage III/V because they are going to retire in next 3 to 5 years. 
Just because it's from Turkey doesn't mean it's going to be cheap, and Mirage III/V frame not worth spending huge amount of investment...unless Pakistan can buy Mirage 2000c from France...Plane would be between 6 to 15 million (depend on the upgrades) for each but why would Pakistan go for more Mirage 2000c when JF-17 block 3 should be coming by the end of 2018.

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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> But with the rebuilt fuselage with zero flying hours conditions, which we obviously could not afford as it will be as much expensive as the building of new jet, so rather to go this way I think JF-17 is much better.
> But 'fanboy' in me is urging me to state my wish to have Carver jet with latest AESA radar and avionics and high thrust engine from west/Italy to replace Mirage Jet in PAF .... hahaha
> https://www.africandefence.net/project-carver-emerges-from-the-shadows/


one wonders could china had brought that for Pakistan swap for a rd 93 and voila



jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan should upgrade JF-17 block 1 with newer avionic and radar.
> It's not worth spending more money on Mirage III/V because they are going to retire in next 3 to 5 years.
> Just because it's from Turkey doesn't mean it's going to be cheap, and Mirage III/V frame not worth spending huge amount of investment...unless Pakistan can buy Mirage 2000c from France...Plane would be between 6 to 15 million (depend on the upgrades) for each but why would Pakistan go for more Mirage 2000c when JF-17 block 3 should be coming by the end of 2018.



pakistan hsould build more block 3 instead of upgrading old aircraft
dont you wonder why trench 1 typhoons, block a/b f-16s and f-35 initial aircrafts are been left alone


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> But with the rebuilt fuselage with zero flying hours conditions, which we obviously could not afford as it will be as much expensive as the building of new jet, so rather to go this way I think JF-17 is much better.
> But 'fanboy' in me is urging me to state my wish to have Carver jet with latest AESA radar and avionics and high thrust engine from west/Italy to replace Mirage Jet in PAF .... hahaha
> https://www.africandefence.net/project-carver-emerges-from-the-shadows/


Carver would have been SA's equivalent to the J-10 and MiG-29M/M2/-35.

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## POPEYE-Sailor

After i read all comments i came to this result...!!! 
Mirage can easily counter indian Su-30 mki and F-7pg for indian Mig-29..!!!


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## litman

ahmedlatif said:


> After i read all comments i came to this result...!!!
> Mirage can easily counter indian Su-30 mki and F-7pg for indian Mig-29..!!!


according to indians LCA on tractor trolley can beat F-16.

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## POPEYE-Sailor

litman said:


> according to indians LCA on tractor trolley can beat F-16.


Bro i am pakistani... we should replace these aircraft with 4++ generation. our gvt has alot money for corruption but not for aircraft


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## litman

ahmedlatif said:


> Bro i am pakistani... we should replace these aircraft with 4++ generation. our gvt has alot money for corruption but not for aircraft


that's true but still we vote for them. keeping in view our economic conditions it seems impossible that pak may procure any capable fighter jet in next 5 yrs. our only way forward is upgrading jft.


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## khanasifm

No body posted anything so nothing new in AFM article about mirages and pac nov AFM


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## Dazzler



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## khanasifm

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 442719



Still using older aim-9p unless upgraded to p4 or 5 they are rear aspect only ???

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## Dazzler

khanasifm said:


> Still using older aim-9p unless upgraded to p4 or 5 they are rear aspect only ???



They use both.

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## CHINA83NEWS

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 442719


Mirage jets are a bit old. Instantaneous steering angle speed without front wing is not good.


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## denel

HRK said:


> But with the rebuilt fuselage with zero flying hours conditions, which we obviously could not afford as it will be as much expensive as the building of new jet, so rather to go this way I think JF-17 is much better.
> But 'fanboy' in me is urging me to state my wish to have Carver jet with latest AESA radar and avionics and high thrust engine from west/Italy to replace Mirage Jet in PAF .... hahaha
> https://www.africandefence.net/project-carver-emerges-from-the-shadows/


Indeed, finally they decided give some details. We were not allowed to discuss this for 25 yrs.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Indeed, finally they decided give some details. We were not allowed to discuss this for 25 yrs.


IMO ... had they stuck with the single-engine Carver design and managed to fly a prototype by the mid-to-late 1990s ... we'd be calling it JF-17 today.

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## Incog_nito

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 442719



I think they should be given a second chance @ PAC.
With new JF-17s engines and French Avionics


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## khanasifm

Per AFM article mirage fuselage has 8000 hours limit and wings 2250 most of fleet is in range of 4-5000 hours and paf got enough spares from Libya so fleet may be kept for r another 10 years so expect mirage last sqn to convert by 2025ish

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## GriffinsRule

Why isnt Pakistan able to fabricate new wings for the Mirage fleet on its own? It is not like the technology is new or the plane itself. After all, we are thinking about manufacturing a 5th generation fighter within 5 years.

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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Why isnt Pakistan able to fabricate new wings for the Mirage fleet on its own? It is not like the technology is new or the plane itself. After all, we are thinking about manufacturing a 5th generation fighter within 5 years.



As of now they are using non destructive inspection/ X-rays and repairing actually internal ribs etc.


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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> Why isnt Pakistan able to fabricate new wings for the Mirage fleet on its own? It is not like the technology is new or the plane itself. After all, we are thinking about manufacturing a 5th generation fighter within 5 years.



Hi,

" With the help of China---off course ".

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> Why isnt Pakistan able to fabricate new wings for the Mirage fleet on its own? It is not like the technology is new or the plane itself. After all, we are thinking about manufacturing a 5th generation fighter within 5 years.


by now even the fuselage might need replacement, forget about the wings
than its after all an older plane without any fly by wire and other stuff
if we really want a delta design just getting afew j-10 would be cheaper

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMO ... might as well buy 2~3 squadrons of FC-31 to replace the Mirage in the maritime ops and strike roles. Even if Project Azm is a different design (i.e. not FC-31), the FC-31 would still make for an exponentially improved upgrade to the Mirage - i.e. internal payload, low-RCS airframe, AESA radar and integrated EW/ECM, etc.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... might as well buy 2~3 squadrons of FC-31 to replace the Mirage in the maritime ops and strike roles. Even if Project Azm is a different design (i.e. not FC-31), the FC-31 would still make for an exponentially improved upgrade to the Mirage - i.e. internal payload, low-RCS airframe, AESA radar and integrated EW/ECM, etc.


I concur, better to spend funds on next gen. Could not write earlier, recoverying from eye op - lasered for small detachment. pray all works out.

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## araz

denel said:


> I concur, better to spend funds on next gen. Could not write earlier, recoverying from eye op - lasered for small detachment. pray all works out.


get well soon bro.
A


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## TOPGUN

denel said:


> I concur, better to spend funds on next gen. Could not write earlier, recoverying from eye op - lasered for small detachment. pray all works out.



All the best bro with your eye GOD bless.


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## razgriz19

khanasifm said:


> As of now they are using non destructive inspection/ X-rays and repairing actually internal ribs etc.



Well NDT is used in all aircraft regardless of what they want to do with it. 
In Mirage's case the aircraft is just too old. Its not just the structure, but other components as well. A lot of the companies that built some of the parts are not around anymore so finding spares is also an issue.

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## Basel

khanasifm said:


> Per AFM article mirage fuselage has 8000 hours limit and wings 2250 most of fleet is in range of 4-5000 hours and paf got enough spares from Libya so fleet may be kept for r another 10 years so expect mirage last sqn to convert by 2025ish



Question is how Israel manage to restore and upgrade Kfirs to block-60 standard? And is it possible to do it to Mirages?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Basel said:


> Question is how Israel manage to restore and upgrade Kfirs to block-60 standard? And is it possible to do it to Mirages?


Remember, Israel had actually manufactured the airframe for both the Kfir and Nesher. They themselves might have built a large stockpile of fresh wings, tails, etc.

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## Basel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Remember, Israel had actually manufactured the airframe for both the Kfir and Nesher. They themselves might have built a large stockpile of fresh wings, tails, etc.



What parts Mirage rebuild factory build??


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Basel said:


> What parts Mirage rebuild factory build??


Interior components (e.g. wiring), but *not* wings, tails, fuselage, etc.


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## ANG

Hi, kindly please read these three articles. They contain a wealth of information on the South African Air Forces upgrades of its Mirages, develpment of the advanced combat wing, and experimental re-engining of its Mirages with RD-33 engines. 

The time of the Mirage 3/5 has passed and it is not cost effective to upgrade them anymore.

https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/06/weekend-wings-39-south-africas-franken.html

https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/06/weekend-wings-40-south-africas-franken.html

https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/07/weekend-wings-41-south-africas-franken.html

I also remember reading in the late 90's early 2000's that the PAF had examined and discussed with the SAAF re-engining Mirages with RD-33 engines.

The French also had developed a version of the Mirage-III called the Mirage IIING, that had a fly-by-wire flight control system way back in 1982, but had no takers as the Mirage 2000 was available at that point in time.

http://www.wings-aviation.ch/57-Mirage/MirageNG.htm

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## khanasifm

MirAges not going anywhere for another decade or so, as long as paf picking up spares and used Ac across the globe plus Induction of jf is about 1 sqn per year so 3 pg plus 6 mirages (ccs mirage will just go away) almost 9 /10 years 

I mean last mirage sqn will last another 9-10 years

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## denel

ANG said:


> Hi, kindly please read these three articles. They contain a wealth of information on the South African Air Forces upgrades of its Mirages, develpment of the advanced combat wing, and experimental re-engining of its Mirages with RD-33 engines.
> 
> The time of the Mirage 3/5 has passed and it is not cost effective to upgrade them anymore.
> 
> https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/06/weekend-wings-39-south-africas-franken.html
> 
> https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/06/weekend-wings-40-south-africas-franken.html
> 
> https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/07/weekend-wings-41-south-africas-franken.html
> 
> I also remember reading in the late 90's early 2000's that the PAF had examined and discussed with the SAAF re-engining Mirages with RD-33 engines.
> 
> The French also had developed a version of the Mirage-III called the Mirage IIING, that had a fly-by-wire flight control system way back in 1982, but had no takers as the Mirage 2000 was available at that point in time.
> 
> http://www.wings-aviation.ch/57-Mirage/MirageNG.htm


Thanks but as noted before time to move forward with newer machines. that was over 25yrs back

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## Bossman

The one reason the Mirages will continue to fly is that they are on the whole better than the Indian Jags and the Jags are not going anywhere.


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## GriffinsRule

Jags have newer airframes which means they will outlast all PAF Mirages, spares or not.

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## aziqbal

Mirage is still a brilliant high speed interceptor, at high speed is has brilliant manoeuvrability 

Jag is too sluggish

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## Storm Force

aziqbal said:


> Mirage is still a brilliant high speed interceptor, at high speed is has brilliant manoeuvrability
> 
> Jag is too sluggish




Indian jags are pure low level.twin engines strike planes only .

They will operate in domain where India mki and rafales plus S400.provide air supremacy.

Jaguar will never be found in pak airspace without top cover from mki o rafales


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## Incog_nito

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 442719


Chahein Kuch Bhi Ho Jaein Mein Rahun Ga. Maut Aein tu Aein. Mein Rahun Ga!!!

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## Windjammer



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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> Jags have newer airframes which means they will outlast all PAF Mirages, spares or not.


not necessary 
some of the rebuild mirages are better given very low hours on them

most were built 70s to mid 1980s so even the newest juaguers are now atleast 30+ years old

so they will probably retire togther


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## Bossman

Storm Force said:


> Indian jags are pure low level.twin engines strike planes only .
> 
> They will operate in domain where India mki and rafales plus S400.provide air supremacy.
> 
> Jaguar will never be found in pak airspace without top cover from mki o rafales



Grossly under powered.


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## Tank131

There are 3 Mirage III Sqd and 3 Mirage V sqd remaining that need replaced. Additionally there is 1 F-7p and 3 F-7PG sqd that need replaced. The first 20 F-7pg were acquired in late 2001 so are only 16 years old. These will likely (due to airframe fatigue issues) be the last to be replaced. The next sqd will likely be the F-7p (Sqd 18 sharp shooters) followed by non-rose mirages. Hopefully the ROSE Mirages will be replaced by an advanced strike fighter (maybe the 5th gen fighter from Project AZM)

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## syed_yusuf

f-7pg have good 7-10 years left in them and PAF intend to continue use them for some time. ROSE 2 and 3 will continue to soldier on for some time. F-7P is next to go for sure. non-rose 1 mirages are next followed by rose 1 mirages and then rose 2 & 3. i think next gen fighter will replace rose 2 and 3 and F-7PG. rest of F-7 and mirages of all other types will be replaced by JFT A and B.

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Interior components (e.g. wiring), but *not* wings, tails, fuselage, etc.


Can we use JFT Manufacturing Facilities for Manufacturing of Mirage components?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Can we use JFT Manufacturing Facilities for Manufacturing of Mirage components?


Theoretically, but only to an extent. PAC doesn't manufacture all of the JF-17 so there are still going to be issues of acquiring finite surplus spare engines, fuselages, etc for the Mirages.


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## GriffinsRule

Unless we re-engine the mirages with RD-93 too akin to how South Africa did with their F-1s!!
But on a serious note, they need to be replaced, maybe even before the F-7 PGs.


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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Theoretically, but only to an extent. PAC doesn't manufacture all of the JF-17 so there are still going to be issues of acquiring finite surplus spare engines, fuselages, etc for the Mirages.


I knew we are manufacturing 58% in house,and i was thinking we are manufacturing fuselage,wings and few avionic components,while rest is coming from CAC.
1)Aren't we are manufacturing JFT fuselages?
2)How much more time we would take to reach upto 100%?


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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Unless we re-engine the mirages with RD-93 too akin to how South Africa did with their F-1s!!
> But on a serious note, they need to be replaced, maybe even before the F-7 PGs.



Per AFM latest article mirage fuselage has 8000 hours life and wings 2250 hour

Current fleet at 5000-5500 hours only wings are being rebuilt/repaired now at pac 

F-7 total life is 2400-2600 hours 

Mirages per article may go on another decade, not sure if f7 p /pg can go past even 3000 assuming pac extend it from 24-2600 with another 200 hour as they did for f-6, a-5 and ft5s 

Cheers

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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> Per AFM latest article mirage fuselage has 8000 hours life and wings 2250 hour
> 
> Current fleet at 5000-5500 hours only wings are being rebuilt/repaired now at pac
> 
> F-7 total life is 2400-2600 hours
> 
> Mirages per article may go on another decade, not sure if f7 p /pg can go past even 3000 assuming pac extend it from 24-2600 with another 200 hour as they did for f-6, a-5 and ft5s
> 
> Cheers



Per the Nov article, the Delta-Mini Ground Visit is being performed on the aircraft will allow them to fly for another 6 years. So I expect them to be phased out by 2025.


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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> Unless we re-engine the mirages with RD-93 too akin to how South Africa did with their F-1s!!
> But on a serious note, they need to be replaced, maybe even before the F-7 PGs.


correction. This was only a POC which is still flying. It was never brought forward into front line operation. It was specifically done to get business of upgrading other countries' F1s. SAAF never inducted or upgraded F1AZ or CZ variants in terms of engines to RD-93.


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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Per the Nov article, the Delta-Mini Ground Visit is being performed on the aircraft will allow them to fly for another 6 years. So I expect them to be phased out by 2025.



In the article they specifically mention “ decade” 
There can be additional GV if needed as long as part supply exists via new source or use of existing platforms for spares


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> In the article they specifically mention “ decade”
> There can be additional GV if needed as long as part supply exists via new source or use of existing platforms for spares


Yes but there is only a certain level of maintenance that can be done until it gives up. What is lacking is a dedicate deep strike aircraft replacement such as Su-34/35 or even jh-7.

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## Windjammer

A highly modified PAF Mirage with patches of primer. 
Wonder if this aircraft is behind the reports of PAF testing some form of RAM coating.

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## timberwolf

Windjammer said:


> A highly modified PAF Mirage with patches of primer.
> Wonder if this aircraft is behind the reports of PAF testing some form of RAM coating.
> 
> View attachment 446982


There is no primer coating on this a/c. It is painted in traditional PAF livery. Yellow shading is perhaps due to poor jpeg rendition or poor photoshop.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Yes but there is only a certain level of maintenance that can be done until it gives up. What is lacking is a dedicate deep strike aircraft replacement such as Su-34/35 or even jh-7.


If AVIC can hold true to its mid-2020s FOC promise then the FC-31 ought to be considered too... as a replacement for the Mirages in the strike role and bridge to PAC's Project Azm fighter (if the two are indeed separate programs).

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## Army research

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If AVIC can hold true to its mid-2020s FOC promise then the FC-31 ought to be considered too... as a replacement for the Mirages in the strike role and bridge to PAC's Project Azm fighter (if the two are indeed separate programs).


They are separate , azm is a clean sheet design, tho Chinese technical assistance is a great factor , however it's a indigenous project , not jv

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## haroonn

timberwolf said:


> There is no primer coating on this a/c. It is painted in traditional PAF livery. Yellow shading is perhaps due to poor jpeg rendition or poor photoshop.



And this appears to be from CCS-Mirage squadron.


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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> A highly modified PAF Mirage with patches of primer.
> Wonder if this aircraft is behind the reports of PAF testing some form of RAM coating.
> 
> View attachment 446982





timberwolf said:


> There is no primer coating on this a/c. It is painted in traditional PAF livery. Yellow shading is perhaps due to poor jpeg rendition or poor photoshop.





haroonn said:


> And this appears to be from CCS-Mirage squadron.



Neither primer nor photoshopped...just some bad quality shot...the picture was taken in karachi at 23rd march flypast.

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## syed zia Hassan

As we known that the Mirage III and V rock solid body but the crashed wreckage we seen in Karachi and Punjab .they cut in to thousand piece… and look at the crashed of other Fighter like Jf-17, and F-16s and F-7p, not result like Mirages… what the reasons for that. As I say I simple answer…. Metal is also have estimated life time ..did we consider the Body of Mirages.. we upgrade the Body of Air craft …but not the standard to Dassault Aviation???


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> A highly modified PAF Mirage with patches of primer.
> Wonder if this aircraft is behind the reports of PAF testing some form of RAM coating.
> 
> View attachment 446982


No RAM coating in prospect or being looked at for any current generation . All research in RAM was limited to the tiles and back in the early 90s.

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## GriffinsRule

syed zia Hassan said:


> As we known that the Mirage III and V rock solid body but the crashed wreckage we seen in Karachi and Punjab .they cut in to thousand piece… and look at the crashed of other Fighter like Jf-17, and F-16s and F-7p, not result like Mirages… what the reasons for that. As I say I simple answer…. Metal is also have estimated life time ..did we consider the Body of Mirages.. we upgrade the Body of Air craft …but not the standard to Dassault Aviation???



Depends on the speed and the angle of the impact.


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## The Accountant

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Theoretically, but only to an extent. PAC doesn't manufacture all of the JF-17 so there are still going to be issues of acquiring finite surplus spare engines, fuselages, etc for the Mirages.



Last year PAF was working on updating mirage rebuild factory to use as maintenance workshop for thunder... There were some spares which we were manufacturing for mirrage but procuring them from China for thunder... 

A project was initiated to merge the fate of these two projects.... I don't know the current status of the project

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## Incog_nito

Is PAC converting old Mirages (non-Rose) into spares?


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## Sine Nomine

Oscar said:


> No RAM coating in prospect or being looked at for any current generation . _All research in RAM was limited to the tiles and back in the early 90s.[_/QUOTE]
> Shed some more light Oscar Sir.


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## SSGcommandoPAK

PAF Mirage Compilations by PAF Mirage page FB .
Includes Takeoff , Cockpit , Countermeasure ,maneuvers, bombing , landing etc all in one video .




__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Readerdefence

Pakistan Army ' said:


> PAF Mirage Compilations by PAF Mirage page FB .
> Includes Takeoff , Cockpit , Countermeasure ,maneuvers, bombing , landing etc all in one video .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Hi very nice and informatic video alas if they would have added air refuelling it will be a complete package very few videos of Pakistani airforce during refuelling their jets 
Thanks

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## Incog_nito

Pakistan Army ' said:


> PAF Mirage Compilations by PAF Mirage page FB .
> Includes Takeoff , Cockpit , Countermeasure ,maneuvers, bombing , landing etc all in one video .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Love it. 



Windjammer said:


> A highly modified PAF Mirage with patches of primer.
> Wonder if this aircraft is behind the reports of PAF testing some form of RAM coating.
> 
> View attachment 446982


 Ufff Shit Man Shit... PSP hahaha 



GriffinsRule said:


> Unless we re-engine the mirages with RD-93 too akin to how South Africa did with their F-1s!!
> But on a serious note, they need to be replaced, maybe even before the F-7 PGs.


The best thing for Non-Rose Mirages is to be replaced by JF-17s and these Mirages should be converted into spares to support Rose Mirage's Airframes and Engines!

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## mingle

IM Ozair said:


> Love it.
> 
> 
> Ufff Shit Man Shit... PSP hahaha
> 
> 
> The best thing for Non-Rose Mirages is to be replaced by JF-17s and these Mirages should be converted into spares to support Rose Mirage's Airframes and Engines!


Theior era is over vintage design and old airframe it's time to give them retirement.

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## Incog_nito

mingle said:


> Theior era is over vintage design and old airframe it's time to give them retirement.


But Rose has something to offer for a couple of more years!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well I never understood the arguments


Fusalage is difficult to recreate 

Wings are hard to copy







This is just a modeller's concept but to imagine it cannpt be replicated with Metals is strange thought the metallic parts like fusalage or wings should be the easiest thing to copy


What kind of unique featues a typical Fusalage needs below is a example (not for mirage)
There is 0% technial challenge in this kind of manufacturing






Even basic crafts man can replicate the fusalage / wings













Looks very simple project for a professional firm, specially if you have a copy in hand











In all honestly ... very simple project for a pro firm dealing with metal


Even private sector would be able to replicate this model copy with few Million tender in Pakistan

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## The Accountant

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well I never understood the arguments
> 
> 
> Fusalage is difficult to recreate
> 
> Wings are hard to copy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is just a modeller's concept but to imagine it cannpt be replicated with Metals is strange thought the metallic parts like fusalage or wings should be the easiest thing to copy
> 
> 
> What kind of unique featues a typical Fusalage needs below is a example (not for mirage)
> There is 0% technial challenge in this kind of manufacturing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even basic crafts man can replicate the fusalage / wings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks very simple project for a professional firm, specially if you have a copy in hand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In all honestly ... very simple project for a pro firm dealing with metal
> 
> 
> Even private sector would be able to replicate this model copy with few Million tender in Pakistan


Not really ... These aircrafts have to fly at mach 2 and have to feel pressure upto 9gs and airframe and has to deal with trumendous pressure and temperature of engine ... Even difference in thickness of micro meters will have impact on performance ... Furthermore these are not simple metals but sprcailized alloys cut to extreme accuracy ... Even a difference of less than micro meters can result in airframe failure

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

While what you state is true however , considering you maintain the thickness of sheets all around and do ample testing there is no reason to claim Pakistan cannot manufacture own Fusalage or Wings it is a rediculous claim

Metallic sheets as such are produced which are then conformed to form a curved surface by Engineers

















Really folks no Rocket Science , even thou we do make Rockets with same concept in Pakistan but to claim we can't fix up Mirage fusalage is strange claim

*Informative good stuff*
This is the kind of thing we should have been doing in Steeles Mills which of course is shut down


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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> Not really ... These aircrafts have to fly at mach 2 and have to feel pressure upto 9gs and airframe and has to deal with trumendous pressure and temperature of engine ... Even difference in thickness of micro meters will have impact on performance ... Furthermore these are not simple metals but sprcailized alloys cut to extreme accuracy ... Even a difference of less than micro meters can result in airframe failure




Hi,

Why are you arguing with him---you should know what he would post---.


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## khanasifm

As long as paf can find spares across the world mirages will keep flying pak has now way of replacing 6 sqn of mirages in one two or three years max one sqn per year same goes for pg

$$$$

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## khanasifm

One thing could not figure out when paf bought 30-40 Girifo 3 for mirage 3 upgrade lenardo on its own develop and proposed grifo 5 for mirage 5 but paf did not went for it may be with flir in the nose there was no room but the Flir is actually below in its own housing under the nose not sure if paf even tested it


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## khanasifm



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## The Accountant

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> While what you state is true however , considering you maintain the thickness of sheets all around and do ample testing there is no reason to claim Pakistan cannot manufacture own Fusalage or Wings it is a rediculous claim
> 
> Metallic sheets as such are produced which are then conformed to form a curved surface by Engineers
> 
> 
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> 
> Really folks no Rocket Science , even thou we do make Rockets with same concept in Pakistan but to claim we can't fix up Mirage fusalage is strange claim
> 
> *Informative good stuff*
> This is the kind of thing we should have been doing in Steeles Mills which of course is shut down


Brother my father and his brother dedicated all of their life to steel mill .. believe me its not that simple ... pakistan steel mill was even unable to produce sheets upto the standard of pak suzuki ... You cant even think about sheets for jet engine

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Every thing can be improved as they say , you have to import new machinery and make enhancements

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## The Accountant

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Every thing can be improved as they say , you have to import new machinery and make enhancements


Yes but as of now we are not at that level ... Try to understand we first have to meet our commercial needs ... Defence needs can only be satisfied as an addition to commercial need ... No one can run a mill sophisticated enough to meet the metallergical demand of jet industry on stand alone basis... We need to establish an industrial base and on that we can capitalize ... For example do you know one of the government sector giant corporation had a whole division working for Pak Armed forces covertly and all the technologies we could not procure directly we purchased and manufactured through that organization ... We did successfully as we were already stabled in that particular industry and were also making profits but now situation has reversed...

So do remember defence industry cannot run in isolation ... While we are importing steel sheets for sub standards cars like mehran then you cannot expect to manufacture aviation grade steel sheet ... First step is creation of a vibrant commerical sector but due to unfortunate legal and tax complications it is almost impossible to setup manufacturing facilities therefore businessmans prefer trading activities over manufacturing ...

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## araz

The Accountant said:


> Yes but as of now we are not at that level ... Try to understand we first have to meet our commercial needs ... Defence needs can only be satisfied as an addition to defence need ... No one can run a mill sophisticated enough to meet the metallergical demand of jet industry on stand alone basis... We need to establish an industrial base and on that we can capitalize ... For example do you know one of the government sector giant corporation had a whole division working for Pak Armed forces covertly and all the technologies we could not procure directly we purchased and manufactured through that organization ... We did successfully as we were already stabled in that particular industry and were also making profits but now situation has reversed...
> 
> So do remember defence industry cannot run in isolation ... While we are importing steel sheets for sub standards cars like mehran then you cannot expect to manufacture aviation grade steel sheet ... First step is creation of a vibrant commerical sector but due to unfortunate legal and tax complications it is almost impossible to setup manufacturing facilities therefore businessmans are prefer trading activities over manufacturing ...


Dual use technology is the key word. Procure for industrial use. Defence usage is an offshoot. Good post. But dont worry, you can continue to show him the light all day long, he wont understand. He is in a different dimension and all things logical dont get there.
Regards
A

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## denel

The Accountant said:


> Yes but as of now we are not at that level ... Try to understand we first have to meet our commercial needs ... Defence needs can only be satisfied as an addition to commercial need ... No one can run a mill sophisticated enough to meet the metallergical demand of jet industry on stand alone basis... We need to establish an industrial base and on that we can capitalize ... For example do you know one of the government sector giant corporation had a whole division working for Pak Armed forces covertly and all the technologies we could not procure directly we purchased and manufactured through that organization ... We did successfully as we were already stabled in that particular industry and were also making profits but now situation has reversed...
> 
> So do remember defence industry cannot run in isolation ... While we are importing steel sheets for sub standards cars like mehran then you cannot expect to manufacture aviation grade steel sheet ... First step is creation of a vibrant commerical sector but due to unfortunate legal and tax complications it is almost impossible to setup manufacturing facilities therefore businessmans prefer trading activities over manufacturing ...


Let us not go there, let me ask you a basic question - are the antennas even imported that are mounted on these aircraft yes or no? I used to have fabrication in my garage for making antennas for small private planes during the sanctions times. Many of the local small airports here i built for them as well; used an interesting concept in vertical antennas design to come up with a new design. We were shocked as to how good our local design performed compared to commercial ones that were imported. Made some good money on the side. Once the design was proven; it was just a matter of customising for different aircrafts/microlights/airfields. My asking price was R300 ($100) at the time and $200 for the airfield/airport for airband. Then it was just word of mouth getting orders to come through. Again, i did it for interest not for the money.
My team was manufacturing the antennas for Mirages here locally including Cheetahs/Impalas.

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## Bossman

The Accountant said:


> Brother my father and his brother dedicated all of their life to steel mill .. believe me its not that simple ... pakistan steel mill was even unable to produce sheets upto the standard of pak suzuki ... You cant even think about sheets for jet engine



First of all Azad is talking about wings and not engine and secondly wings are made from aluminum and not steel. Pakistan Steel is not expected to provide aviation grade steel but there is one company in Pakistan which can and it is Peoples Steel. Here I am not talking about sheet metal but for load bearing parts like landing gears. Turbines blade are very different story. Less than 5 countries in the world have that technology especially for single crystal turbine blades.

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## MiG-35-BD

a can-do attitude is very important. As is good planning that does not involve dysfunctional politics. Bhutto ruined the steel potential of Pakistan when he got the Soviet old steel mill instead of the two small german ones that was planned. One in a coal producing region and another in an iron ore producing region. 

That was stupid and sadly has YET to be corrected.


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## syed_yusuf

Space Command said:


> As per an EX-IAF Air Marshal, PAF has 6 Mirage squadrons with 120-130 Mirages.
> PAF acquired a total of ~200 Mirages + some more as source for spares.
> About 70 aircraft have been lost due to attrition.


your math is not adding up


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## Sine Nomine

Space Command said:


> As per an EX-IAF Air Marshal, PAF has 6 Mirage squadrons with 120-130 Mirages.
> PAF acquired a total of ~200 Mirages + some more as source for spares.
> About 70 aircraft have been lost due to attrition.


That is total Acquisation from 1970 to 1990's,do you think,the batch which came in 1970's is still flying,they have been decomissioned.


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## ziaulislam

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well I never understood the arguments
> 
> 
> Fusalage is difficult to recreate
> 
> Wings are hard to copy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is just a modeller's concept but to imagine it cannpt be replicated with Metals is strange thought the metallic parts like fusalage or wings should be the easiest thing to copy
> 
> 
> What kind of unique featues a typical Fusalage needs below is a example (not for mirage)
> There is 0% technial challenge in this kind of manufacturing
> 
> 
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> 
> Even basic crafts man can replicate the fusalage / wings
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> 
> Looks very simple project for a professional firm, specially if you have a copy in hand
> 
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> In all honestly ... very simple project for a pro firm dealing with metal
> 
> 
> Even private sector would be able to replicate this model copy with few Million tender in Pakistan


The design it self is obsolete ...why re create an obsolete design !!!!

For example , These were not designed around fly by wire


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## Taha Samad

I had two questions:

1) Did any upgrade happen to Non-ROSE Mirages? And if not, what were the reasons; money etc? Considering that ROSE upgrade happened around mid-90s time frame; the non-ROSE mirages are serving till date and will probably continue to do so for 2-3 more years it would not have a bad investment. As of today I believe there are still at least 3 non-ROSE squadrons.

2) Secondly off and on we hear that Mirages(probably ROSE-I) had limited BVR capability through R-Darter variant(Crescent Arrow or whatever it was called). But has anyone come across any official source, book, picture that would confirm this. What would be the load out 2 BVR, 2 WVR with centerline tank? I am asking this since ROSE Mirages and F-7 PGs will probably continue to serve till 2025. F-7PG can take on role of Point Defence / Ground Support fighter basically forming the lower tier of PAF force; ROSE-II/III are probably still well suited for their Tactical Attack / Night Strike role. But ROSE-I without BVR taking on the role of Air Defense is bit questionable.

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> your math is not adding up



Over the years, at least 65 Mirages have crashed. 2006 was a particularly bad year when 6 different Mirages crashed.



Taha Samad said:


> I had two questions:
> 
> 1) Did any upgrade happen to Non-ROSE Mirages? And if not, what were the reasons; money etc? Considering that ROSE upgrade happened around mid-90s time frame; the non-ROSE mirages are serving till date and will probably continue to do so for 2-3 more years it would not have a bad investment. As of today I believe there are still at least 3 non-ROSE squadrons.
> 
> 2) Secondly off and on we here that Mirages(probably ROSE-I) had limited BVR capability through R-Darter variant(Crescent Arrow or whatever it was called). But has anyone come across any official source, book, picture that would confirm this. What would be the load out 2 BVR, 2 WVR with centerline tank? I am asking this since ROSE Mirages and F-7 PGs will probably continue to serve till 2025. F-7PG take on role of Point Defence / Ground Forces Support fighter forming the lower tier of PAF force; ROSE-II/III are probably still well suited for their Tactical Attack / Night Strike role. But ROSE-I without BVR taking on the role of Air Defence is bit questionable.



There were multiple ROSE upgrades done over the years as PAF acquired aircraft from various sources. However, I have not come across any literature that indicates if we upgraded the original PAF jets from the 60s and 70s to the ROSE standard, but they would have had smaller upgrades to things like HUDs, navigation equipment, Comm and Radios etc.
The first ROSE upgrade (with Grifo M) was done to 33 ex-Australian Mirage III O/OD (EA/DA).
The second ROSE II upgrade was done to 19/20 of the 40 (1 crashed during test flights in France) ex-French Mirage V EF.
A third ROSE III upgrade was done to the remaining 14 Mirage V EF with improved night attack capabilities. (6 of the 40 were dual-seat Mirage DFs and were not part of the ROSE upgrades).
I am not sure if any of the Libyan Mirage III ELs were upgraded or not.

For your second question, I don't think PAF operates any Mirages with BVR missiles, even though the Grifo M would have allowed for BVR engagements given its range/power etc. However, there is no evidence of them having the capability in actual service. Much like PAF F-16A/Bs were BVR capable back in the day, but had no missiles to use for such engagements.


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## Cuirassier

Some 67 Mirage ROSE and perhaps ~68 non-ROSE with us atm.

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## Taha Samad

GriffinsRule said:


> Over the years, at least 65 Mirages have crashed. 2006 was a particularly bad year when 6 different Mirages crashed.
> 
> 
> 
> There were multiple ROSE upgrades done over the years as PAF acquired aircraft from various sources. However, I have not come across any literature that indicates if we upgraded the original PAF jets from the 60s and 70s to the ROSE standard, but they would have had smaller upgrades to things like HUDs, navigation equipment, Comm and Radios etc.
> The first ROSE upgrade (with Grifo M) was done to 33 ex-Australian Mirage III O/OD (EA/DA).
> The second ROSE II upgrade was done to 19/20 of the 40 (1 crashed during test flights in France) ex-French Mirage V EF.
> A third ROSE III upgrade was done to the remaining 14 Mirage V EF with improved night attack capabilities. (6 of the 40 were dual-seat Mirage DFs and were not part of the ROSE upgrades).
> I am not sure if any of the Libyan Mirage III ELs were upgraded or not.
> 
> For your second question, I don't think PAF operates any Mirages with BVR missiles, even though the Grifo M would have allowed for BVR engagements given its range/power etc. However, there is no evidence of them having the capability in actual service. Much like PAF F-16A/Bs were BVR capable back in the day, but had no missiles to use for such engagements.



I am aware of what happened under ROSE program. I was more interested in what if any meaningful upgrades took place for the non-ROSE mirages and particularly the reason for not going for upgrades; specially ROSE-IV which was proposed by french or even applying ROSE-I/II/III to remaining fleet. Given the sanctions and PAF needs at the time it seemed logical to continue the ROSE program. 

Most often high cost and ageing fleet was cited as the reason for discontinuation of this program. I can understand the high cost part for ROSE-IV since it may have involved structural improvements and even a new engine. But a drilled down version on ROSE-IV or if not feasible ROSE-I/II/II could have been applied to the remaining fleet. The ageing fleet reason does make sense in hind-sight as Mirages end up serving for another 2+ decades.

As of today their are currently 3 non-ROSE squadrons:

No. 8: Operating Mirage V PA2/PA3 (PA3s has Agave Radar mated with Exocet specialized for maritime strike; while PA2s have Cyrano IV radar for tactical attack role)
No. 15 majorly having non-upgraded Mirage V (VPA2, but also few other special mission variants like reconnaissance). 

No. 22 is OCU, so mostly has dual seaters (Mirage III DP, DA, DL etc)
As for the BVR missile being available; go through the initial pages of this thread and you would know what I am talking about. There was confirmation about presence of BVR missile based on R-Darter by many senior members/PAF insiders. But no official confirmation ever came.


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## GriffinsRule

Taha Samad said:


> I am aware of what happened under ROSE program. I was more interested in what if any meaningful upgrades took place for the non-ROSE mirages and particularly the reason for not going for upgrades; specially ROSE-IV which was proposed by french or even applying ROSE-I/II/III to remaining fleet. Given the sanctions and PAF needs at the time it seemed logical to continue the ROSE program.
> 
> Most often high cost and ageing fleet was cited as the reason for discontinuation of this program. I can understand the high cost part for ROSE-IV since it may have involved structural improvements and even a new engine. But a drilled down version on ROSE-IV or if not feasible ROSE-I/II/II could have been applied to the remaining fleet. The ageing fleet reason does make sense in hind-sight as Mirages end up serving for another 2+ decades.
> 
> As of today their are currently 3 non-ROSE squadrons:
> 
> No. 8: Operating Mirage V PA2/PA3 (PA3s has Agave Radar mated with Exocet specialized for maritime strike; while PA2s have Cyrano IV radar for tactical attack role)
> No. 15 majorly having non-upgraded Mirage V (VPA2, but also few other special mission variants like reconnaissance).
> 
> No. 22 is OCU, so mostly has dual seaters (Mirage III DP, DA, DL etc)
> As for the BVR missile being available; go through the initial pages of this thread and you would know what I am talking about. There was confirmation about presence of BVR missile based on R-Darter by many senior members/PAF insiders. But no official confirmation ever came.



I am going to have to speculate myself for the reasons, but part of the problem was also which aircraft to upgrade for what configuration. Why the original Mirages were not upgraded akin to the ROSE I/II/III standard, I think is partly because of numbers and varying variants of Mirages left over. For example, PAF has lost most of the original Mirage III EP (there were 18 ordered in 1967). These would have been akin to the Mirage III Os from Australia and could have supported the Grifo M radar but probably were not upgraded due to age and the small numbers left in service. The token number of Mirage III RPs could not be upgraded to ROSE because at the time they offered the only asset that gave us the limited recon ability. (It was not until 2008-2009 that the first C-130s were upgraded with Bright Star config etc and later joined by F-16s with DB110 pods).
That leaves the Mirage V PA/PA2s ... I am not certain of the numbers left after attrition, but perhaps it was decided not to upgrade them as they are all radar equipped Mirage V variants, unlike the EFs we got from France (as No 8 Sqd also operates in the anti-shipping roles and thus upgrading half of the fleet might not have made sense?)

I think what it points to is that there is enough variations in the different Mirage variants that a standardized upgrade was not possible for the remaining Mirages. If memory serves me right, when PAF went to look for Mirages from Europe, part of the requirement was to find 40-50 of the same model. They lucked out with finding them in France. But they had also looked at Belgium and Swiss ones as well. Similarly, all the Aussie Mirage III were mostly the same ... and the ones that were not, like a few of the two-seaters and recon versions, were not part of the ROSE I upgrade. I might be wrong here of course but unless someone asks this question next time to someone at the MRF, we might never know concretely.

So to basically summarize, we probably did not upgrade the original Mirages because of a hodgepodge of variants. From the original 85-90, we have only enough left for 2 squadrons. And these also include some aircraft from Libya and Lebanon. So that is probably why (no one standard).

As for the squadrons, I think your list is right. From what I can see, the non-ROSE Mirages are in the following 3 squadrons:

Mirage V PA/PA2/PA3s: No 8 Sqd 'Haiders'
Mirage V PA, Mirage III EP/RP/DP: No 15 Sqd 'Cobras'
Mirage III/V (Mixture of varients): No 22 OCU Sqd 'Ghazis'

ROSE upgraded squadrons are below.
The 40 Mirage V EFs from France are split up between the two tactical attack squadrons,
Mirage V EF: No 25 Sqd 'Eagles' and No 27 Sqd 'Zarrars'.
Mirage III O: No 7 Sqd 'Bandits' as well as a few with the CCS.

For the BVR question, if the Mirages had the capability, it would have been made public by now. But given that there has never been any evidence of such and over the years, different PAF personnel have given interviews stating that we didn't get the BVR missiles until JF-17 and then upgraded F-16s, I think is sufficient for me to think that is perhaps closer to reality.


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## syed zia Hassan

Very Well support to Mirage III and V ...but in Pakistan Air Force. are you sure about that last 1968 to 2018 PAF used these Machine. It also a World Record. but now for the last few years Air Crashes going to a high rate and loss are too High ... Wing Commender Air Commodore. Base Commander . High Rang High Quality Well Trained Pilots loos their Lives. Its Its unacceptable. PAF should Retired Mirage III and v as Soon as Possible.

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## GriffinsRule

Yes, the Mirage aircraft have to be replaced, but not due to the reason you mention but because they are not as capable as they once were. And crashes have been happening in the Mirage fleet as long as they have been in service. In most cases, we never find out the reason behind a particular crash, so we can not assume it is due to the age of the aircraft or for some other reason.
There were at least 7 Mirage crashes just in the 1970s when the aircraft were practically brand new. The worst decade actually was from 2000-2009 when at least 29 Mirages were lost for varying reasons. So far from 2010 till now, only 16 Mirage aircraft have been lost. 
A lot of these crashes have also been happening around take-offs and landings, when the risk from bird strikes in the highest ... you can thank the Pakistani people and their trash dumping and collection habits for that, not the aircraft itself.


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## Readerdefence

Hi can anybody shed some light if jf17 can carry Raad if not then mirages will remain in paf 
Until we have something comparable to raad for jf17 
Any memeber with more info please 
Thank you


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## syed zia Hassan

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes, the Mirage aircraft have to be replaced, but not due to the reason you mention but because they are not as capable as they once were. And crashes have been happening in the Mirage fleet as long as they have been in service. In most cases, we never find out the reason behind a particular crash, so we can not assume it is due to the age of the aircraft or for some other reason.
> There were at least 7 Mirage crashes just in the 1970s when the aircraft were practically brand new. The worst decade actually was from 2000-2009 when at least 29 Mirages were lost for varying reasons. So far from 2010 till now, only 16 Mirage aircraft have been lost.
> A lot of these crashes have also been happening around take-offs and landings, when the risk from bird strikes in the highest ... you can thank the Pakistani people and their trash dumping and collection habits for that, not the aircraft itself.


ok I understand your point but the reasons not found yet it also a big question of crashes .. Pilots of PAF every one known their are best . not only Mirages now F7ps also


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## syed zia Hassan

And received from Aus


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## ziaulislam

let see how much can we replicate this with F16s
in dire times of fiscal problems in late 90s mirage 5 Rose program was a successful program not only as cost effective solution but also a learning experience in avionics and rebuilding airframe

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> let see how much can we replicate this with F16s
> in dire times of fiscal problems in late 90s mirage 5 Rose program was a successful program not only as cost effective solution but also a learning experience in avionics and rebuilding airframe


Absolutely this a valid point; there are hundreds of f-16s out there in storage or being sold off; how long before US does not need to be consulted. Build jf-17 blk3 to the point that f-16s are irrelevant; then it becomes the bargaining chip that it is not a sellers market but a buyer's market.



Readerdefence said:


> Hi can anybody shed some light if jf17 can carry Raad if not then mirages will remain in paf
> Until we have something comparable to raad for jf17
> Any memeber with more info please
> Thank you


No, it cannot carry it; the fuselage to ground clearance height is not tall enough.

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## GriffinsRule

Came across this news clipping while searching for old info ... this is cicra 1988 ... Pakistan even then had an eye on the Australian Mirages as a plan B. But the Pressler Amendment sealed the deal and rest is history.

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## Basel

Taha Samad said:


> I had two questions:
> 
> 1) Did any upgrade happen to Non-ROSE Mirages? And if not, what were the reasons; money etc? Considering that ROSE upgrade happened around mid-90s time frame; the non-ROSE mirages are serving till date and will probably continue to do so for 2-3 more years it would not have a bad investment. As of today I believe there are still at least 3 non-ROSE squadrons.
> 
> 2) Secondly off and on we hear that Mirages(probably ROSE-I) had limited BVR capability through R-Darter variant(Crescent Arrow or whatever it was called). But has anyone come across any official source, book, picture that would confirm this. What would be the load out 2 BVR, 2 WVR with centerline tank? I am asking this since ROSE Mirages and F-7 PGs will probably continue to serve till 2025. F-7PG can take on role of Point Defence / Ground Support fighter basically forming the lower tier of PAF force; ROSE-II/III are probably still well suited for their Tactical Attack / Night Strike role. But ROSE-I without BVR taking on the role of Air Defense is bit questionable.



The development in missile and sensor tech is at that point that if PAF want to make PG & Rose Mirages potent defensive threat then they can just add latest gen ASRAAM (IR guided 50km max range) class missile with HMS/HMD to mitigate radar issues and if one add EW pods like IAF has done then ROSE birds will be able to do some damage inside enemy territory too.


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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> The development in missile and sensor tech is at that point that if PAF want to make PG & Rose Mirages potent defensive threat then they can just add latest gen ASRAAM (IR guided 50km max range) class missile with HMS/HMD to mitigate radar issues and if one add EW pods like IAF has done then ROSE birds will be able to do some damage inside enemy territory too.


range and endurance will not allow it use beyond point defence, especialy if pods are added
i think PAF will stick to mirages and would take PG out earlier
but i am an amatuer and is just my guess


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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> range and endurance will not allow it use beyond point defence, especialy if pods are added
> i think PAF will stick to mirages and would take PG out earlier
> but i am an amatuer and is just my guess



You forgot M-5 have better range than M-3 due to more internal fuel capacity but still with IFR ROSE can do better, may be like upgraded Indian Jags.

PG are very good in point defense, with HMS/HMD + ASRAAM (max 50km range IR missile) in NCW environment they could serve well till end of their life.


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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> You forgot M-5 have better range than M-3 due to more internal fuel capacity but still with IFR ROSE can do better, may be like upgraded Indian Jags.
> 
> PG are very good in point defense, with HMS/HMD + ASRAAM (max 50km range IR missile) in NCW environment they could serve well till end of their life.


my guess is none rose will follow, than PG will go by 2023-25 and mirages ROSE might linger on till 2027-30 (i.e till the thunder production is there)

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## Tank131

Actually inthink the rose mirages will go before PGs, mostly due to the fact that the oldest of the PG airframes is only 16 years old. People forget that they were built in 2001. If China develops a good HMD then PAF can equip the PGs with Pl-10 or A-darter which have a 20km range. I doubt that PAF will be getting ASRAAM anytime soon, and certainly will not get a missile just for an aircraft type that is being phased out, as ideal as it would have been to increase its longevity. That is not even to address whether or not the brits would sell it to Pakistan. The other alternative is to equip the PGs with LINK 17 and equip them with SD-10s to be guided by JF-17s, ground radars, or AWACS. They are, however, likely far more airworthy than the M3 or M5s even likely moreso than the ROSE Mirages. Frankly, as long as the ROSE mirages are in service, it may be worth setting them up with a similar package, possibly with SD-10 or A_darter. For them, it may be worth getting any remaining R_darters in service with SAAF.

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## Basel

Tank131 said:


> Actually inthink the rose mirages will go before PGs, mostly due to the fact that the oldest of the PG airframes is only 16 years old. People forget that they were built in 2001. If China develops a good HMD then PAF can equip the PGs with Pl-10 or A-darter which have a 20km range. I doubt that PAF will be getting ASRAAM anytime soon, and certainly will not get a missile just for an aircraft type that is being phased out, as ideal as it would have been to increase its longevity. That is not even to address whether or not the brits would sell it to Pakistan. The other alternative is to equip the PGs with LINK 17 and equip them with SD-10s to be guided by JF-17s, ground radars, or AWACS. They are, however, likely far more airworthy than the M3 or M5s even likely moreso than the ROSE Mirages. Frankly, as long as the ROSE mirages are in service, it may be worth setting them up with a similar package, possibly with SD-10 or A_darter. For them, it may be worth getting any remaining R_darters in service with SAAF.



As all ROSE Mirages are NCW capable so equipping them with BVR may not be big issue specially in LOAL mode (who knows it already done), as for ASRAAM class missile it will not come just for old birds as JFTs also need better range IR missile, PGs already carry AIM-9s and any new IR missile PAF buy in future will go to PGs as they are called poor man's F-16s. PAF should look into Russian R-73/74 (latest versions) too.


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## KapitaanAli

Tank131 said:


> Actually inthink the rose mirages will go before PGs, mostly due to the fact that the oldest of the PG airframes is only 16 years old. People forget that they were built in 2001. If China develops a good HMD then PAF can equip the PGs with Pl-10 or A-darter which have a 20km range. I doubt that PAF will be getting ASRAAM anytime soon, and certainly will not get a missile just for an aircraft type that is being phased out, as ideal as it would have been to increase its longevity. That is not even to address whether or not the brits would sell it to Pakistan. The other alternative is to equip the PGs with LINK 17 and equip them with SD-10s to be guided by JF-17s, ground radars, or AWACS. They are, however, likely far more airworthy than the M3 or M5s even likely moreso than the ROSE Mirages. Frankly, as long as the ROSE mirages are in service, it may be worth setting them up with a similar package, possibly with SD-10 or A_darter. For them, it may be worth getting any remaining R_darters in service with SAAF.


PG airframe is extremely poor. There's no life in them.


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## GriffinsRule

KapitaanAli said:


> PG airframe is extremely poor. There's no life in them.


How are Indian migs still flying then?

As the older Mirage fleet winds down with JF-17 inductions, they will be used as a spare source to support the 3 squadrons that are upgraded. The only reason I see Mirage 5EFs (Rose II, III) to remain in service the longest is due to the fact that they are optimized for night strike sorties due to the FLIR which all other fighters so far lack. I don't imagine its a capability PAF will be willing to give up until there is a suitable replacement.

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## syed_yusuf

KapitaanAli said:


> PG airframe is extremely poor. There's no life in them.



No F-7PG airframe is best airframe ever produced for any Mig-21 variant. its wings are based on MIg-29 technology. get your facts straight. i expect f-7PG to continue solder on till 2025.



GriffinsRule said:


> How are Indian migs still flying then?
> 
> As the older Mirage fleet winds down with JF-17 inductions, they will be used as a spare source to support the 3 squadrons that are upgraded. The only reason I see Mirage 5EFs (Rose II, III) to remain in service the longest is due to the fact that they are optimized for night strike sorties due to the FLIR which all other fighters so far lack. I don't imagine its a capability PAF will be willing to give up until there is a suitable replacement.



all rose 1,2,3 mirages will continue to soldier on for another 5 -7 years. these are modern and upgraded fighters. and are still relevant.



GriffinsRule said:


> ..........
> 
> As for the squadrons, I think your list is right. From what I can see, the non-ROSE Mirages are in the following 3 squadrons:
> 
> Mirage V PA/PA2/PA3s: No 8 Sqd 'Haiders'
> Mirage V PA, Mirage III EP/RP/DP: No 15 Sqd 'Cobras'
> Mirage III/V (Mixture of varients): No 22 OCU Sqd 'Ghazis'
> 
> ROSE upgraded squadrons are below.
> The 40 Mirage V EFs from France are split up between the two tactical attack squadrons,
> Mirage V EF: No 25 Sqd 'Eagles' and No 27 Sqd 'Zarrars'.
> Mirage III O: No 7 Sqd 'Bandits' as well as a few with the CCS.
> 
> For the BVR question, if the Mirages had the capability, it would have been made public by now. But given that there has never been any evidence of such and over the years, different PAF personnel have given interviews stating that we didn't get the BVR missiles until JF-17 and then upgraded F-16s, I think is sufficient for me to think that is perhaps closer to reality.



very well said. next mirage to go are 

Mirage V PA, Mirage III EP/RP/DP: No 15 Sqd 'Cobras'
Mirage III/V (Mixture of varients): No 22 OCU Sqd 'Ghazis'

i believe Haiders nights will continue for some time. so the following examples also

Mirage V EF: No 25 Sqd 'Eagles' and No 27 Sqd 'Zarrars'.
Mirage III O: No 7 Sqd 'Bandits' as well as a few with the CCS.

i believe the 5th gen fighter will replace most 3 mirage and 3 f-7PG squadrons. rest will be replaced by JFT.

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## khanasifm

Comparing f7 with 23-2400 hours life to mirage 3/5 with fuselage life of 8000 hours and wings life of 2400 hours and pac is rebuild the wings now as well

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## Armchair-General

Indeed the Mirage 3/5 series was the best of it's time but these airframes need to be retired within 5 years and replced with new 4.5 or 5th Gen mid to heavy weight fighter for deep strike role.


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## denel

syed_yusuf said:


> No F-7PG airframe is best airframe ever produced for any Mig-21 variant. its wings are based on MIg-29 technology. get your facts straight. i expect f-7PG to continue solder on till 2025.
> 
> 
> 
> all rose 1,2,3 mirages will continue to soldier on for another 5 -7 years. these are modern and upgraded fighters. and are still relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> very well said. next mirage to go are
> 
> Mirage V PA, Mirage III EP/RP/DP: No 15 Sqd 'Cobras'
> Mirage III/V (Mixture of varients): No 22 OCU Sqd 'Ghazis'
> 
> i believe Haiders nights will continue for some time. so the following examples also
> 
> Mirage V EF: No 25 Sqd 'Eagles' and No 27 Sqd 'Zarrars'.
> Mirage III O: No 7 Sqd 'Bandits' as well as a few with the CCS.
> 
> i believe the 5th gen fighter will replace most 3 mirage and 3 f-7PG squadrons. rest will be replaced by JFT.


For Mig-21F series; i do concur PG is the most improved overall; but Bison with upgrades is still as potent. Again depends on the criteria for performance. It is amazing still to see an old design given a huge improvement nevertheless.

Indeed, I expect Rose to be around for a while as there is no replacement for deep strike; unless there is a dedicated version that can be put up to replace. The time for remaining Mirage is over. If kamra had the fore sight they would have taken license for Mirage and evolved it e.g. replace the Atar engine with a Russian turbofan and better avionics which Atlas probably did suggest but PAF was under the influence of French; or alternatively gotten Mirage F1s.

Anyway, past is past, look forward but learn from the past is what i am trying to pass on.

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## syed_yusuf

denel said:


> For Mig-21F series; i do concur PG is the most improved overall; but Bison with upgrades is still as potent. Again depends on the criteria for performance. It is amazing still to see an old design given a huge improvement nevertheless.
> 
> Indeed, I expect Rose to be around for a while as there is no replacement for deep strike; unless there is a dedicated version that can be put up to replace. The time for remaining Mirage is over. If kamra had the fore sight they would have taken license for Mirage and evolved it e.g. replace the Atar engine with a Russian turbofan and better avionics which Atlas probably did suggest but PAF was under the influence of French; or alternatively gotten Mirage F1s.
> 
> Anyway, past is past, look forward but learn from the past is what i am trying to pass on.


Yes totally agreed


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## khanasifm




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## araz

denel said:


> For Mig-21F series; i do concur PG is the most improved overall; but Bison with upgrades is still as potent. Again depends on the criteria for performance. It is amazing still to see an old design given a huge improvement nevertheless.
> 
> Indeed, I expect Rose to be around for a while as there is no replacement for deep strike; unless there is a dedicated version that can be put up to replace. The time for remaining Mirage is over. If kamra had the fore sight they would have taken license for Mirage and evolved it e.g. replace the Atar engine with a Russian turbofan and better avionics which Atlas probably did suggest but PAF was under the influence of French; or alternatively gotten Mirage F1s.
> 
> Anyway, past is past, look forward but learn from the past is what i am trying to pass on.


Great post. Totally agreed. However it was around the early 2000s and following the 2002 standoff between India and Pakistan. The French embargoed the Rose Mirages and the last Agosta was also delayed. Russia was totally unreliable and selling heavily to India. As such I dont think the supplies would have been assured. PAF took a strategic decision to move on towards our own venture rather than waste meagre resources on upgrades with limited outcome. When Russian relations thawed it was probably too late for the Mirages and 16s were still on the card.So till the US started its games again PAF was hopeful for a mix of newer and older 16s for fleet reinforcements. So timelines and geographical and political realities came in the line of such advancements/ thoughts. PAF did have some thoughts and the Cheetahs were assessed but we ended up buying wings rather than the whole idea. My 2 pennies worth.
A

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## syed_yusuf

Regardless of what right it wrong paf did, now with JFT and azm it is on right track

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## khanasifm



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## syed zia Hassan

last few years in Karachi Mirages crashed ..on tactical reasons as per PAF report to media and Pilots loss their life no ejection seen ... and not juniors all wing commander and Sql leaders. huge loss of PAF .. I mentioned before why not PAF should ground mirages. stop its patrolling. because of its time is over just like F-6 and A-5 and FT5s, even I say time is over of F-7ps too. anyways PAF is in hard time. They Build very quickly Jf-17s thunder to replace Mirages and F-7p. but during this time if Mirages will retired today ..what problem have to face. Its not a Air war time yet . PAF used Air to Ground Attacks on their operations along with Border side Afghanistan. but Mirages now in not trust able conditions to Fly more. Metal is also AGE time. no need to upgrade its allover. build a new Mirage is also loss of funds.. Technology performance everything is change now. We are worry then Mirages III and 5, in the Sky of Pakistan.​


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## Readerdefence

syed zia Hassan said:


> last few years in Karachi Mirages crashed ..on tactical reasons as per PAF report to media and Pilots loss their life no ejection seen ... and not juniors all wing commander and Sql leaders. huge loss of PAF .. I mentioned before why not PAF should ground mirages. stop its patrolling. because of its time is over just like F-6 and A-5 and FT5s, even I say time is over of F-7ps too. anyways PAF is in hard time. They Build very quickly Jf-17s thunder to replace Mirages and F-7p. but during this time if Mirages will retired today ..what problem have to face. Its not a Air war time yet . PAF used Air to Ground Attacks on their operations along with Border side Afghanistan. but Mirages now in not trust able conditions to Fly more. Metal is also AGE time. no need to upgrade its allover. build a new Mirage is also loss of funds.. Technology performance everything is change now. We are worry then Mirages III and 5, in the Sky of Pakistan.​


Hi I know you are not comfortable with mirage fighters crash rate and loss of the precious 
Life of our elite pilots but please do keep couple of points in your mind before you fully
Retired the mirages 
1 none of your fleet of fighters except mirage can carry Raad ( one of the ace arsenal in PAF)
2 you don’t have any proper deep strike bomber ( and for that you have spend quiet a lot to upgrade mirage fleet) 
3 what is the answer of retiring the mirage fleet until unless you have the replacement ready 
4 in this case you will loose your fighter squadron strength also 
Your reply will be appreciated 
Thank you

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## syed zia Hassan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi I know you are not comfortable with mirage fighters crash rate and loss of the precious
> Life of our elite pilots but please do keep couple of points in your mind before you fully
> Retired the mirages
> 1 none of your fleet of fighters except mirage can carry Raad ( one of the ace arsenal in PAF)
> 2 you don’t have any proper deep strike bomber ( and for that you have spend quiet a lot to upgrade mirage fleet)
> 3 what is the answer of retiring the mirage fleet until unless you have the replacement ready
> 4 in this case you will loose your fighter squadron strength also
> Your reply will be appreciated
> Thank you


ok Sir, First of all .I am not against the Mirages they are best of their time No Question about that. and yes we dont have a bomber for long range Strike . and but did we have in past ? no. today we dont have strike in Jerusalem .. today we just have to defend only...........the situation is much different then 1990, even 2010. today we just have to defend Pakistan Aerospace. Long Range Air craft today Like Su-34 as you mentioned its call a good replacement as today world .. any why.
as you say look around Pakistan U.S A policy change to Pakistan they Give India every thing and ignore Pakistan like forget about .. its very difficult time for Pakistan Air force. only Choice to Build Jf-17s as soon as possible. that why I said no need to fly Mirages in this conditions. tell me if PAF loose a Fighter Squadron for a little time what we loss??? Sir PAF have already no Way to Go .. Only F-16s and Jf 17s are the Front and Back bone to fight every situation its .hard to believe but its true... BVR system is a Sharp killer to F-7ps mirages you know that...

That are my points to say Please stop patrolling Mirages ..its create problems to PAF


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## MastanKhan

syed zia Hassan said:


> ok Sir, First of all .I am not against the Mirages they are best of their time No Question about that. and yes we dont have a bomber for long range Strike . and but did we have in past ? no. today we dont have strike in Jerusalem .. today we just have to defend only...........the situation is much different then 1990, even 2010. today we just have to defend Pakistan Aerospace. Long Range Air craft today Like Su-34 as you mentioned its call a good replacement as today world .. any why.
> as you say look around Pakistan U.S A policy change to Pakistan they Give India every thing and ignore Pakistan like forget about .. its very difficult time for Pakistan Air force. only Choice to Build Jf-17s as soon as possible. that why I said no need to fly Mirages in this conditions. tell me if PAF loose a Fighter Squadron for a little time what we loss??? Sir PAF have already no Way to Go .. Only F-16s and Jf 17s are the Front and Back bone to fight every situation its .hard to believe but its true... BVR system is a Sharp killer to F-7ps mirages you know that...
> 
> That are my points to say Please stop patrolling Mirages ..its create problems to PAF



Hi,

There is no defence without offence---.

People who can only defend---have DIED a horrible death.

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## syed zia Hassan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no defence without offence---.
> 
> People who can only defend---have DIED a horrible death.


Pakistan this time in only Defense not in offence position ..its hard to believe but its true. be realistic. and please look at in Pakistan Inside ..Pakistan now in very difficult circumstances. Law in order ... judiciary System is targeted now FBR ..and State Bank. every Government Department is hopelot of problem internal in Pakistan and enemy enjoyed this situations.. now people only in Defend not offence.


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## Shabi1

Wikipedia page on Mirage ROSE got an update since I last checked. All mentioned companies providing components replacing SAGEM and SELEX are local. Looking at Pakistan's defence establishment's emphasis on keeping capabilities under wraps as long as possible, since hardware for the ROSE upgrades are locally sourced I suspect alot more airframes have gotten the upgrade and the extent of upgraded features could be more than whats being acknowledged.

Interesting insights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE

It is currently expected for all of ROSE upgraded Mirage fighters jets to be remain in the combat service with PAF beyond 2020 in specialized Tactical Attack roles. The are expected to be replaced by JF–17 Thunder (block IV or V; if JF-17 program continues) or additional F-16s or next generation aircraft coming out Project Azm; but there are no publicly confirmed timelines or details about any of these programs.[1][5]

The French SAGEM and Italian SELEX were contracted to provide crucial consultations on military electronics and avionics in 1996.[6] Special overhauling facilities and the designing divisions were established the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra.[6] Over 90% aircraft were locally retrofitted at the Aeronautical Complex; and very few aircraft were upgraded in France.

In 1998, the SAGEM and Italian SELEX left the program as the Margalla Electronics, DESTO, and GIDS, and NIE joined the program.[3]

The PAF's project team was formed to manage the program and held review meetings frequently in both Pakistan and France where problems were discussed.[6] The Aeronautical Complex and its technical personnel were involved with parts manufacture and quality control. PAF test pilots validated performance of the new equipment during test-flights.[6] In 2003, the PAF bought a total of about 50 grounded Mirage III and Mirage 5 fighter jets from Libya along with 150 engines still in sealed packaging and a huge quantity of spare parts.[8] Most of these aircraft were to be broken up for spare parts required by the Mirage fleet already in PAF service.[8] With this purchase, the PAF was to become the largest operator of Dassault Mirage III/Mirage 5 fighters in the world.[9]

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## Army research

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no defence without offence---.
> 
> People who can only defend---have DIED a horrible death.


Sir this very stratagem, I've tried explaining it to many old officers yet they don't budge ,

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## Readerdefence

syed zia Hassan said:


> ok Sir, First of all .I am not against the Mirages they are best of their time No Question about that. and yes we dont have a bomber for long range Strike . and but did we have in past ? no. today we dont have strike in Jerusalem .. today we just have to defend only...........the situation is much different then 1990, even 2010. today we just have to defend Pakistan Aerospace. Long Range Air craft today Like Su-34 as you mentioned its call a good replacement as today world .. any why.
> as you say look around Pakistan U.S A policy change to Pakistan they Give India every thing and ignore Pakistan like forget about .. its very difficult time for Pakistan Air force. only Choice to Build Jf-17s as soon as possible. that why I said no need to fly Mirages in this conditions. tell me if PAF loose a Fighter Squadron for a little time what we loss??? Sir PAF have already no Way to Go .. Only F-16s and Jf 17s are the Front and Back bone to fight every situation its .hard to believe but its true... BVR system is a Sharp killer to F-7ps mirages you know that...
> 
> That are my points to say Please stop patrolling Mirages ..its create problems to PAF


Hi thank you for your reply and my friend no need to call me a sir I’m just a CBM like you to gain as much knowledge as I can coming in this thread 
Again my couple of points
1 as per your reply do we need to bomb Jerusalem 1990 we never did and will not 
2 only bombing for us from 1947 till now is next door 
3 as I mentioned earlier you don’t have a capability to launch Raad beside from mirages 
4 as per your saying we don’t need to pitch mirages at the very first instance alas after jf17 & f16
You can use them quiet well 
5 loosing a fighter squad well I hope you will agree until you have a replacement you shouldn’t be
In case of specially Pakistan as you already wrote look around 
6 now comes to changing of policy from USA towards Pakistan how long you want to be feed by USA isn’t it better to find other ways around to fulfill your requirements 
7 if you have the money and economy like India you talking about USA I bet you nobody dare 
To offend you not to sell whatever you looking for 
8 so at the moment we are restricted due to our economic position so whatever we have or whatever you can get is better two in the bush ☹️
Thank you for your patience to read my post


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## syed zia Hassan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thank you for your reply and my friend no need to call me a sir I’m just a CBM like you to gain as much knowledge as I can coming in this thread
> Again my couple of points
> 1 as per your reply do we need to bomb Jerusalem 1990 we never did and will not
> 2 only bombing for us from 1947 till now is next door
> 3 as I mentioned earlier you don’t have a capability to launch Raad beside from mirages
> 4 as per your saying we don’t need to pitch mirages at the very first instance alas after jf17 & f16
> You can use them quiet well
> 5 loosing a fighter squad well I hope you will agree until you have a replacement you shouldn’t be
> In case of specially Pakistan as you already wrote look around
> 6 now comes to changing of policy from USA towards Pakistan how long you want to be feed by USA isn’t it better to find other ways around to fulfill your requirements
> 7 if you have the money and economy like India you talking about USA I bet you nobody dare
> To offend you not to sell whatever you looking for
> 8 so at the moment we are restricted due to our economic position so whatever we have or whatever you can get is better two in the bush ☹️
> Thank you for your patience to read my post


 I used the Jerusalem just because of history PAF pilots fight against Israel 1973 and shot down Israeli Mirages... from their Mig-21 and Hunters. and Russian are very upset India and U.S.A close relation and for the losing Indian huge weapons Market, this is the time for Pakistan to shake hands with Russian and open the Motorway to Russian states. etc. I say Mirages are the best for flying no question about that I am not hate this machine but its time is over now. lot of problems PAF are facing them now ..that why I say this. and other you points Sir I am agree with you


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## syed_yusuf

Is mirage number 441 to 452 are all mirage 5 pa3 fighters equipped with ASM ?

By looking at the picture how do u dustingush between pa2 and pa3?


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## khanasifm

syed_yusuf said:


> Is mirage number 441 to 452 are all mirage 5 pa3 fighters equipped with ASM ?
> 
> By looking at the picture how do u dustingush between pa2 and pa3?



Nose of Ac varies and you can distinguish 8 sqn mirages with Exocet capability by nose [emoji103] as it carries a specific radar type agave with smaller black Radom compared to mirage 3 and mirage 5s other than pa3 does not have radar perhaps a ranging radar ??


View attachment 460799


View attachment 460800


View attachment 460801


View attachment 460802


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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> Is mirage number 441 to 452 are all mirage 5 pa3 fighters equipped with ASM ?
> 
> By looking at the picture how do u dustingush between pa2 and pa3?



There is no way to distinguish PA2s from PA3s externally, unless they are seen carrying Exocet. And I don't think the PA3 were in a neat sequence either. And there were only 10 delivered with AShM capability and not 13 as your total might add up to.
The ones that are positively 5PA3s are 79437, 79447, 79451, and 79458. I have a suspect list of the other 6 but its just guess work lol



khanasifm said:


> Nose of Ac varies and you can distinguish 8 sqn mirages with Exocet capability by nose [emoji103] as it carries a specific radar type agave with smaller black Radom compared to mirage 3 and mirage 5s other than pa3 does not have radar perhaps a ranging radar ??



None of these attachments are working. As for the noses, there are differences between certain ones, both none so between Mirage 5PA2/3s, but of which carry radars, either the Cyrano IV (in the 21 PA2s) or the Agave (in the 10 PA3s).

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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> There is no way to distinguish PA2s from PA3s externally, unless they are seen carrying Exocet. And I don't think the PA3 were in a neat sequence either. And there were only 10 delivered with AShM capability and not 13 as your total might add up to.
> The ones that are positively 5PA3s are 79437, 79447, 79451, and 79458. I have a suspect list of the other 6 but its just guess work lol
> 
> 
> 
> None of these attachments are working. As for the noses, there are differences between certain ones, both none so between Mirage 5PA2/3s, but of which carry radars, either the Cyrano IV (in the 21 PA2s) or the Agave (in the 10 PA3s).



I don’t know which sqn has pa2 but 7 sqn and 22 sqn mirages differs from 8 sqn and you can distinguish based on nose, even 25, 27 as well as 15 sqn Mirage nose differs 

Which sqn flies pa2 same 8 Sqn ??

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/pakistanmiragema_1.htm


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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> I don’t know which sqn has pa2 but 7 sqn and 22 sqn mirages differs from 8 sqn and you can distinguish based on nose, even 25, 27 as well as 15 sqn Mirage nose differs
> 
> Which sqn flies pa2 same 8 Sqn ??
> 
> http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/pakistanmiragema_1.htm



For your benefit, here is a quick reference guide I just made to differentiate between the various versions of Mirages in PAF. I didnt' include the various dual-seaters in here. 

Just to add, as I didn't include the tails of these, but there are two types of vertical stabilizers as well. Ex-French and Lebanese Mirages have a notched tails while the rest of the Mirages don't.

Enjoy.

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## khanasifm

Looks like last of mirages will be replaced in a decade “ calendar [emoji414] book for decade or so “
1 f7 sqn plus 3 pg sqn and 6 mirage sqn so 1 sqn per year average ?? It’s 10 years at least at that rate 

Thrifty at 50: Pakistan keeps ageing Mirages flying

https://nation.com.pk/29-Apr-2018/thrifty-at-50-pakistan-keeps-ageing-mirages-flying

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## Maxpane

*geing fighter jets still flying high in Pakistan*
_




*Fifty years after it was added to the fleet, repair, refurbish continues
By AFP 
Apr.29,2018
ISLAMABAD: *The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverbates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest ageing fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force (PAF).

Fifty years after the country bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.

That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France’s Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.

*Pakistan turns to China for high-end weapons: report*






In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians inspect a Mirage aircraft after the installation of air-to-air refuelling probe as it undergoes an overhaul by the PAF at the MRF in Kamra, Islamabad. PHOTO: AFP

The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of – but far more high-tech and lethal than – the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.

“We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the ageing Mirages,” says Air Commodore Salman M Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.

The Mirages, bought in the late 1960s to diversify the fleet, largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres. The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.






In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians work on the engine of a Mirage aircraft. PHOTO: AFP

They performed bombing missions during Pakistan’s war with India in 1971 – one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.

But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war. Usually the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years.






In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft. PHOTO: AFP

But overhauling them abroad was expensive for a developing country.

So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you’ve got to do it yourself.

*Makeover*

The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved ‘billions’ of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars – though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.

The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.

*US budget proposes $336m in civilian assistance, military aid to Pakistan*

At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited. E

ngineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a “non-destructive inspection”, essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and air-frame.

Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.






In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, a Mirage aircraft prepares for a first test run at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex after an overhaul at the MRF in Kamra. PHOTO: AFP

Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.

The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refuelling, Farooqi said.

The “identification of friend and foe” (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.

*Pakistan successfully test-fires ‘beyond visual range’ missile from JF-17 Thunder*

*Grand dames*

But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the ageing planes are becoming more difficult to maintain. “They have outlived their lives… after their overhauls [they] have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents,” Lateef said.






In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul. PHOTO: AFP

The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbour and arch-rival India – which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades – is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.

The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said. Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.






In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the PAF. PHOTO: AFP

Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages’ status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.

It is a “very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy’s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission to drop bombs on the enemy’s position – quite easy,” he said.

“It is an old aircraft,” said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. “But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise
_

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## araz

syed zia Hassan said:


> Pakistan this time in only Defense not in offence position ..its hard to believe but its true. be realistic. and please look at in Pakistan Inside ..Pakistan now in very difficult circumstances. Law in order ... judiciary System is targeted now FBR ..and State Bank. every Government Department is hopelot of problem internal in Pakistan and enemy enjoyed this situations.. now people only in Defend not offence.


Your enemy is seven times bigger than you, their forces are 5 times bigger than you. Their resources are more and they are the darlings of the Powers that be. You on the other hand are corrupt inept and disorganized. Your resources are limited as there is only a limited amount of raw material that you possess. Barring China you have no support and the Chinese support for you is based on mutual interests. You can assume a aggressive posture but cant maintain it. This is a reality. So unless you want the region to turn into scorched earth and the world population to be culled into half or less, you have no other option but to be defencive. This is the reality so better accept it and live with it.
Within your confines and limitations you have done well. You have avoided major wars in 2002 and 2008 and made the Indian strategists look like fools. They have made big claims but not been able to carry them through as like you they dont want to end up as toast.
The war that is being waged against you is an economic war with many facets. The whole idea is to choke your economic growth and the best way is to foment violence inside. This is the reason that you have Indian forrays with Afghanistan and Iran. If you can bear and thwart this long enough for the CEPC To come into being and start functioning and can keep flow on that line smooth and uninterrupted you will be fine. Other things that need to be done are beyond us so let us not talk bout it.
A



Shabi1 said:


> Wikipedia page on Mirage ROSE got an update since I last checked. All mentioned companies providing components replacing SAGEM and SELEX are local. Looking at Pakistan's defence establishment's emphasis on keeping capabilities under wraps as long as possible, since hardware for the ROSE upgrades are locally sourced I suspect alot more airframes have gotten the upgrade and the extent of upgraded features could be more than whats being acknowledged.
> 
> Interesting insights
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE
> 
> It is currently expected for all of ROSE upgraded Mirage fighters jets to be remain in the combat service with PAF beyond 2020 in specialized Tactical Attack roles. The are expected to be replaced by JF–17 Thunder (block IV or V; if JF-17 program continues) or additional F-16s or next generation aircraft coming out Project Azm; but there are no publicly confirmed timelines or details about any of these programs.[1][5]
> 
> The French SAGEM and Italian SELEX were contracted to provide crucial consultations on military electronics and avionics in 1996.[6] Special overhauling facilities and the designing divisions were established the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra.[6] Over 90% aircraft were locally retrofitted at the Aeronautical Complex; and very few aircraft were upgraded in France.
> 
> In 1998, the SAGEM and Italian SELEX left the program as the Margalla Electronics, DESTO, and GIDS, and NIE joined the program.[3]
> 
> The PAF's project team was formed to manage the program and held review meetings frequently in both Pakistan and France where problems were discussed.[6] The Aeronautical Complex and its technical personnel were involved with parts manufacture and quality control. PAF test pilots validated performance of the new equipment during test-flights.[6] In 2003, the PAF bought a total of about 50 grounded Mirage III and Mirage 5 fighter jets from Libya along with 150 engines still in sealed packaging and a huge quantity of spare parts.[8] Most of these aircraft were to be broken up for spare parts required by the Mirage fleet already in PAF service.[8] With this purchase, the PAF was to become the largest operator of Dassault Mirage III/Mirage 5 fighters in the world.[9]


Thank you for a very thought provoking post. I think it is safe to say that PAF has proven to be mastsrs of turning inadequacy into competency. Ic Israelis can still fly the same Air frame why can we not do so ourselves. I am intrigued to learn that local advancements are going into the planes. So effectively things have moved on from beyond ROSE 1,2 and 3. The question really is how upgradable are these planes. However if the pragmatic solution is to upgraxe them as cheap yet effective solutions for specialized roles then it is not a bad decision. The frames have the necessary life and the original platform being long obsolete the OEMs ars not too bothered with what you do with them. 
A

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## Shahzaz ud din

*50 years old Mirages: PAF stunned world with its professionalism and serviceability*
*29 Apr, 2018*






*SHARES*





*KAMRA: The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverbates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest ageing fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force.*

Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.

*READ MORE: PAF JF 16 fighter jet*
That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France´s Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.

The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of -- but far more high-tech and lethal than -- the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.

*READ MORE: Pakistani film "Sherdil" on life of a PAF pilot to hit cinemas*
"We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the ageing Mirages," says Air Commodore Salman M. Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.

Pakistan bought its first Mirages to diversify its fleet, which in the late 1960s largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres.

*READ MORE: In a first, Chinese Air Chief was the Chief Guest at the PAF Academy passing out parade*
The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.

They performed bombing missions during Pakistan´s war with India in 1971 -- one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.

But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war.

Usually the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years. But overhauling them abroad was expensive for Pakistan, a developing country whose budget is already disproportionately tilted towards its military and which has historically received billions in military assistance from countries such as the US.

So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you´ve got to do it yourself.

* Makeover*

The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved "billions" of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars -- though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.

The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.

At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited.

Engineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a "non-destructive inspection", essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and airframe.

Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.

Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.

The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refuelling, Farooqi said.

The "identification of friend and foe" (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.

* Grand dames *

But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the ageing planes are becoming more difficult to maintain.

"They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents," Lateef said.

The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbour and arch-rival India -- which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades -- is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.

The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said.

Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.

Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages´ status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.

It is a "very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy´s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission -- to drop bombs on the enemy´s position -- quite easy," he said.

"It is an old aircraft," said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. "But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise." - APP/AFP

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

JF17 Thunder program is meant to improve Airforce and is on Track specially with investment in Azm project 
No urgency on Airforce , we need to fix our Navy 

Pick up *18-36 Mirage 2000* on side


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## Armchair-General

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> JF17 Thunder program is meant to improve Airforce and is on Track specially with investment in Azm project
> No urgency on Airforce , we need to fix our Navy
> 
> Pick up *18-36 Mirage 2000* on side


I would prefer J-10 to replace the mirage in strike role

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## araz

Armchair-General said:


> I would prefer J-10 to replace the mirage in strike role


Depends on which fighter makes the fifth generation platform for PAF. How long can the Mirage continue? And will 16s be available second hand by 2019-22. If you think about it the real issue is one of Escort for bombing missions which you guys have been harping on about. If Mirage can carry the load provided there is a fifth generation AC willing to provide top cover and SEAD role we could use these fighters for as long as we want. If one is not available then we need to look at another solution. Solutions could be saturation CM attacks which may incite a Nuclear response or fighters with a good SEAD capable top cover. What we then use is another story? However in the 2018-2022 bracket I dont see a new fighter arriving for PAF. My 2 paisas worth.
A

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## Armchair

araz said:


> Depends on which fighter makes the fifth generation platform for PAF. How long can the Mirage continue? And will 16s be available second hand by 2019-22. If you think about it the real issue is one of Escort for bombing missions which you guys have been harping on about. If Mirage can carry the load provided there is a fifth generation AC willing to provide top cover and SEAD role we could use these fighters for as long as we want. If one is not available then we need to look at another solution. Solutions could be saturation CM attacks which may incite a Nuclear response or fighters with a good SEAD capable top cover. What we then use is another story? However in the 2018-2022 bracket I dont see a new fighter arriving for PAF. My 2 paisas worth.
> A



Mirages on AD will be phased out but those on a strike role will likely remain at least till 2025 if not beyond. imho.

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## imadul

Mirages were inducted some 50 years ago. Though this does not give their actual age as measured in hrs and cycles.
They have been going through full overhaul. But how much more effective useful life PAF can squeeze out of the?. Airframe is one thing, there are other parts too, engine, landing gear etc. How each part is kept in working order? How mental fatigue is fixed? Can someone explain. 
I do notice crashing of PAF mirages every now and then.


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## CHI RULES

imadul said:


> Mirages were inducted some 50 years ago. Though this does not give their actual age as measured in hrs and cycles.
> They have been going through full overhaul. But how much more effective useful life PAF can squeeze out of the?. Airframe is one thing, there are other parts too, engine, landing gear etc. How each part is kept in working order? How mental fatigue is fixed? Can someone explain.
> I do notice crashing of PAF mirages every now and then.



Since last few months no crash recorded regarding Mirages. The crashes were mostly of Mirage-III variants this means that Mirage V of PAF are still safe to fly. However some extra work has been done to make Mirage III better.

The first preference should be to re[lace Mirage III old versions and F7s ( which are perhaps already being replaced with JF17s mostly).

F7s and F7PGs were produced with short life cycle, so next threat is of F7PGs.



araz said:


> Depends on which fighter makes the fifth generation platform for PAF. How long can the Mirage continue? And will 16s be available second hand by 2019-22. If you think about it the real issue is one of Escort for bombing missions which you guys have been harping on about. If Mirage can carry the load provided there is a fifth generation AC willing to provide top cover and SEAD role we could use these fighters for as long as we want. If one is not available then we need to look at another solution. Solutions could be saturation CM attacks which may incite a Nuclear response or fighters with a good SEAD capable top cover. What we then use is another story? However in the 2018-2022 bracket I dont see a new fighter arriving for PAF. My 2 paisas worth.
> A



Sir or financial constraints can't justify or defense gaps. IAF shall be more potent with induction of Rafaels, SU30 upgraded with better operational availability, Mig29 further upgrades, Jaguars being upgraded. Even in mid term we observe induction of F35 .

At least what we should do is to make JF17 block 3 more potent at least for AD, meanwhile for limited interception, deep penetration the Su35 or any Chinese flanker should be acquired.

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## imadul

CHI RULES said:


> Since last few months no crash recorded regarding Mirages. The crashes were mostly of Mirage-III variants this means that Mirage V of PAF are still safe to fly. However some extra work has been done to make Mirage III better.
> 
> The first preference should be to re[lace Mirage III old versions and F7s ( which are perhaps already being replaced with JF17s mostly).
> 
> F7s and F7PGs were produced with short life cycle, so next threat is of F7PGs.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir or financial constraints can't justify or defense gaps. IAF shall be more potent with induction of Rafaels, SU30 upgraded with better operational availability, Mig29 further upgrades, Jaguars being upgraded. Even in mid term we observe induction of F35 .
> 
> At least what we should do is to make JF17 block 3 more potent at least for AD, meanwhile for limited interception, deep penetration the Su35 or any Chinese flanker should be acquired.


Yes, Chinese J11-D, which has AESA and IFR. J11D, probably equal or better than SU35?
My other question, how many more hours mirages could be stretched? It is mind boggling this 60's machine still flies.


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## Readerdefence

imadul said:


> Yes, Chinese J11-D, which has AESA and IFR. J11D, probably equal or better than SU35?
> My other question, how many more hours mirages could be stretched? It is mind boggling this 60's machine still flies.


Hi at the moment Chinese are developing & bringing out j16 & j16 growler kind of 
J11D is not that mature as compare to su35 with tvc and top notch Russian aesa you can imagine
Why Chinese have bought them at the very first instance 
Now I’m not saying j11 is not capable but no comparison with su35 
So if Pakistan has to buy something for China in j series it should be j16 very sleek and agile 
Aircraft if not then to counter the IAF Rafales j10c will also work well 
Thank you

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## syed_yusuf

Su35 does not have aesa from Russia

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## litman

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Paki.../aIL+Ipj00Uec7AOg1850OIZP2erMfQPOeaZt+wLsEzOB
why PAF has used an upgraded mirage with air to air refueling capability for only display purpose?


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## jamal18

@imadul 

I remember a comment by an air chief in charge of the overhaul. He said technically, you can only overhaul an aircraft so often. After a while the very metal the aircraft is made of fatigues.

This comment was made a very long time ago.


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## khanasifm

Nothing on f-16 is equivalent and jf-17 still working towards it and need additional # to replace which will eventually happen in 7-10 years as 9-10 sqn still remaining pg plus mirages

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## Inception-06

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 478459
> 
> 
> Nothing on f-16 is equivalent and jf-17 still working towards it and need additional # to replace which will eventually happen in 7-10 years as 9-10 sqn still remaining pg plus mirages



The Jf-17 cant replace all capabilities of the Mirage series? H-2, H-4, cruise missile, anti-radiation Missiles etc. ?

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## The Accountant

why not ?


Ulla said:


> The Jf-17 cant replace all capabilities of the Mirage series? H-2, H-4, cruise missile, anti-radiation Missiles etc. ?

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## khanasifm

??ALCM

Eventually it will as the number are
Available to replace sqn ~250 jf making 12-13 plus sqn 

4 f-16 sqn 

that leaves ~ 2-3 sqn which may be another type ?? May be still a version of jf in future who knows total 20 or so sqn of around 380-400 Ac including 1 sqn k-8s


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## Imran Khan

only capabilities mirages left is enemy can see something flying other side of border .

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## Armchair-General

What is the RCS of the mirages.


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## MastanKhan

Armchair-General said:


> What is the RCS of the mirages.



Hi,

Lower than that of the F16's in clean config

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## Armchair

Armchair-General said:


> What is the RCS of the mirages.



There is a rumor of a specially RCS reduced Mirage that went into and came back from Indian airspace without detection. But this may have just been a test of the then technology.

RCS of M2K is a third of F-16.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Lower than that of the F16's in clean config

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## Armchair-General

Armchair said:


> There is a rumor of a specially RCS reduced Mirage that went into and came back from Indian airspace without detection. But this may have just been a test of the then technology.
> 
> RCS of M2K is a third of F-16.


But isn't the mirage 3 made of older materials and design, so RCS should be larger than that of the mirage 2000.


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## Cuirassier

Armchair-General said:


> But isn't the mirage 3 made of older materials and design, so RCS should be larger than that of the mirage 2000.


Mirage 3 has 35m2 wing area while Mirage 2000 has 41m2 wing area,


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## Cuirassier

Thus it's in 1-2m2 range


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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> There is a rumor of a specially RCS reduced Mirage that went into and came back from Indian airspace without detection. But this may have just been a test of the then technology.
> 
> RCS of M2K is a third of F-16.


Rumour


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## AMG_12

Armchair said:


> There is a rumor of a specially RCS reduced Mirage that went into and came back from Indian airspace without detection. But this may have just been a test of the then technology.
> 
> RCS of M2K is a third of F-16.


Probably a violation of airspace. They fly low and that's all the good they do when flying into enemy territory. Theres no such thing as low RCS Mirages. Please share the "source" of your rumor, if therest such thing at all. İf that's insider info then it's bs.


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## Armchair

Believe it or not, (I won't share where I got that information, its RUMINT not insider info), but I do know that PAF tested a Mirage with RCS reducing tiles (not RAM paint but RAM tiles) quite a while back. By now they probably use RAM paint (if I had to make an educated guess). They entered Indian airspace and flew back without the Indians ever being wiser. 

But then if they carried weapons it would have been a different story as the external stores have RCS values of about 0.1-0.2 per AAM and more for larger stores.


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## AMG_12

Armchair said:


> Believe it or not, (I won't share where I got that information, its RUMINT not insider info), but I do know that PAF tested a Mirage with RCS reducing tiles (not RAM paint but RAM tiles) quite a while back. By now they probably use RAM paint (if I had to make an educated guess). They entered Indian airspace and flew back without the Indians ever being wiser.
> 
> But then if they carried weapons it would have been a different story as the external stores have RCS values of about 0.1-0.2 per AAM and more for larger stores.


Nothing of the sort ever happened, RUMINT = misinformation. I don't think you're aware how well monitored Indian Airspace is but sure, carry on with your theories and RUMINT. Have a goodnight.

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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> Believe it or not, (I won't share where I got that information, its RUMINT not insider info), but I do know that PAF tested a Mirage with RCS reducing tiles (not RAM paint but RAM tiles) quite a while back. By now they probably use RAM paint (if I had to make an educated guess). They entered Indian airspace and flew back without the Indians ever being wiser.
> 
> But then if they carried weapons it would have been a different story as the external stores have RCS values of about 0.1-0.2 per AAM and more for larger stores.


Totally fan boy stuff

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## Shabi1

I find it pretty hard to believe PAF has Mirages that have been rebuilt multiple times yet it has not done structural upgrades to improve performance. Only avionics and system upgrades in the form of ROSE program.

There were so many possibilities the Atar-9C (60.8kn) engines could have been updated/swapped to the much more fuel efficient, robust and easier to maintain Atar-9K50 (70.6 kN) just as the Swedish Mirage 3 Milan. The South Africans even manage to upgrade their Mirage F-1s with RD-93s. Found an old article in which Israel offered to upgrade Mirage 3/5s for customers with the GE404 engine from the F-18 and JAS-39 Gripen. Even in it's own inventory Israel is rumored to have re engined it's Mirage 3Cs with J79 engines (83.4 kN). An aircraft goes through several engines in it's life time, PAF has been operating and will continue to operate them for a considerable time so it would have saved maintenance costs by switching to a better engine.

Brazilian & Portuguese got the Mirage 3NG upgrades (also Atar 9K-50 powered) which added leading edge trailing flaps, FBW and several systems bringing it close to the Mirage-2000.
https://dave-llamaman.deviantart.com/art/Portuguese-Mirage-3NG-625544162

Swedish Mirage 3s had fixed canards added to increase lift and lower required runway lengths. Added drag sacrificed acceleration and speed which they made up with rocket boosters. They also had additional lift hook points on the aircrafts so they can be lifted by crane and moved inside their mountain shelters.

PAF had loads of options and with older parts availability an issue it could have modernized them better. R&D for the updates had already been done by the OEM. Cost wouldn't have been a major issue as they could have been carried out at rebuilds or engine replacement intervals. At least the re engining to Atar 9K-50 should have been carried out. Israel is still offering Kfir upgrades in the form of Kfir Block-60 adding a AESA radar and modernization to match modern warfare requirements. The Kfir Block-60 is in fact eyeing some of the same potential customers as PAC is working for JF-17 as an even cheaper option.

So either there was short sightedness or PAF is keeping us in he dark about the extent of upgrades on the Mirages.

Update: According to wikipedia PAF Mirages equipped with Grifo-M have been updated to carry the PL-12/SD-10.

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## denel

Shabi1 said:


> I find it pretty hard to believe PAF has Mirages that have been rebuilt multiple times yet it has not done structural upgrades to improve performance. Only avionics and system upgrades in the form of ROSE program.
> 
> There were so many possibilities the Atar-9C (60.8kn) engines could have been updated/swapped to the much more fuel efficient, robust and easier to maintain Atar-9K50 (70.6 kN) just as the Swedish Mirage 3 Milan. The South Africans even manage to upgrade their Mirage F-1s with RD-93s. Found an old article in which Israel offered to upgrade Mirage 3/5s for customers with the GE404 engine from the F-18 and JAS-39 Gripen. Even in it's own inventory Israel is rumored to have re engined it's Mirage 3Cs with J79 engines (83.4 kN). An aircraft goes through several engines in it's life time, PAF has been operating and will continue to operate them for a considerable time so it would have saved maintenance costs by switching to a better engine.
> 
> Brazilian & Portuguese got the Mirage 3NG upgrades (also Atar 9K-50 powered) which added leading edge trailing flaps, FBW and several systems bringing it close to the Mirage-2000.
> https://dave-llamaman.deviantart.com/art/Portuguese-Mirage-3NG-625544162
> 
> Swedish Mirage 3s had fixed canards added to increase lift and lower required runway lengths. Added drag sacrificed acceleration and speed which they made up with rocket boosters. They also had additional lift hook points on the aircrafts so they can be lifted by crane and moved inside their mountain shelters.
> 
> PAF had loads of options and with older parts availability an issue it could have modernized them better. R&D for the updates had already been done by the OEM. Cost wouldn't have been a major issue as they could have been carried out at rebuilds or engine replacement intervals. At least the re engining to Atar 9K-50 should have been carried out. Israel is still offering Kfir upgrades in the form of Kfir Block-60 adding a AESA radar and modernization to match modern warfare requirements. The Kfir Block-60 is in fact eyeing some of the same potential customers as PAC is working for JF-17 as an even cheaper option.
> 
> So either there was short sightedness or PAF is keeping us in he dark about the extent of upgrades on the Mirages.
> 
> Update: According to wikipedia PAF Mirages equipped with Grifo-M have been updated to carry the PL-12/SD-10.
> 
> View attachment 479044
> 
> 
> View attachment 479045
> View attachment 479046
> View attachment 479047
> View attachment 479048


It is the former; it was short sighted and overall road map was never given consideration. If you look at Ecuador - they use both Cheetah and Kfir; you can see the significant advantages these platforms had. Just imagine if you had a complete fleet of 120+ Cheetahs running with rd-93's.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> It is the former; it was short sighted and overall road map was never given consideration. If you look at Ecuador - they use both Cheetah and Kfir; you can see the significant advantages these platforms had. Just imagine if you had a complete fleet of 120+ Cheetahs running with rd-93's.


When the PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16 (late 1980s), Dassault had offered to shift the Mirage F-1 production line to PAC. Imagine if that had been there ... coupled with South Africa's work on the Cheetah and Russia's RD-93 turbofan engine...

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## Armchair

The Accountant said:


> Totally fan boy stuff


We have a senior and well-respected poster on PDF who has said so. I'm sure he too would be a fanboy to you, since that's the depth of your intellect.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/introducing-jf-17-thunder-block-ii.382544/page-9#post-8427665

Here is a hint. If you do your own research, you will find the proverbial golden goose. But I don't spoon-feed people incapable of research and polite conversation.



Shabi1 said:


> I find it pretty hard to believe PAF has Mirages that have been rebuilt multiple times yet it has not done structural upgrades to improve performance. Only avionics and system upgrades in the form of ROSE program.
> 
> There were so many possibilities the Atar-9C (60.8kn) engines could have been updated/swapped to the much more fuel efficient, robust and easier to maintain Atar-9K50 (70.6 kN) just as the Swedish Mirage 3 Milan. The South Africans even manage to upgrade their Mirage F-1s with RD-93s. Found an old article in which Israel offered to upgrade Mirage 3/5s for customers with the GE404 engine from the F-18 and JAS-39 Gripen. Even in it's own inventory Israel is rumored to have re engined it's Mirage 3Cs with J79 engines (83.4 kN). An aircraft goes through several engines in it's life time, PAF has been operating and will continue to operate them for a considerable time so it would have saved maintenance costs by switching to a better engine.
> 
> Brazilian & Portuguese got the Mirage 3NG upgrades (also Atar 9K-50 powered) which added leading edge trailing flaps, FBW and several systems bringing it close to the Mirage-2000.
> https://dave-llamaman.deviantart.com/art/Portuguese-Mirage-3NG-625544162
> 
> Swedish Mirage 3s had fixed canards added to increase lift and lower required runway lengths. Added drag sacrificed acceleration and speed which they made up with rocket boosters. They also had additional lift hook points on the aircrafts so they can be lifted by crane and moved inside their mountain shelters.
> 
> PAF had loads of options and with older parts availability an issue it could have modernized them better. R&D for the updates had already been done by the OEM. Cost wouldn't have been a major issue as they could have been carried out at rebuilds or engine replacement intervals. At least the re engining to Atar 9K-50 should have been carried out. Israel is still offering Kfir upgrades in the form of Kfir Block-60 adding a AESA radar and modernization to match modern warfare requirements. The Kfir Block-60 is in fact eyeing some of the same potential customers as PAC is working for JF-17 as an even cheaper option.
> 
> So either there was short sightedness or PAF is keeping us in he dark about the extent of upgrades on the Mirages.
> 
> Update: According to wikipedia PAF Mirages equipped with Grifo-M have been updated to carry the PL-12/SD-10.
> 
> View attachment 479044
> 
> 
> View attachment 479045
> View attachment 479046
> View attachment 479047
> View attachment 479048




Very interesting and well-written post, as usual from you Shabi1. But do you have any more information on the current BVR on the Mirages? Given the number of AMRAAMs bought, it would suggest PAF may have them on the Mirages as well as the F-16s. AAMs have about a decade of shelf-life. R-Darters in that case are probably phased out by now from the Mirage fleet. Unless the missiles where rebuilt.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When the PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16 (late 1980s), Dassault had offered to shift the Mirage F-1 production line to PAC. Imagine if that had been there ... coupled with South Africa's work on the Cheetah and Russia's RD-93 turbofan engine...


Absolutely; that was a golden time which would have brought in a new dimension. I remember at Altas we were very keen to move forward but it never materialised. There was a lot of promise - for example, other countries would have easily come over to have their aircrafts converted over. When IAI is now refurbishing older Kfirs in Block60 from that time frame shows there is a market out there still. For example what is not generally known is all our F1s were having hms; whilst Cheetahs already did have them by default.

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## mzeeshanfahd

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When the PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16 (late 1980s), Dassault had offered to shift the Mirage F-1 production line to PAC. Imagine if that had been there ... coupled with South Africa's work on the Cheetah and Russia's RD-93 turbofan engine...



so what stopped them from shifting the line ...... there must be some alternate logic .... or was it plane treachery ..... a zardari/noora in uniform ....

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## salman-1

Price must have been the major factor as French are the most expensive sellers in world. Jf17 was just allocated $500 million in all for the final product. French might have asked more than that for just copy rights or licence. Production line separate in billions.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mzeeshanfahd said:


> so what stopped them from shifting the line ...... there must be some alternate logic .... or was it plane treachery ..... a zardari/noora in uniform ....


They took an alternate route ... Sabre II (aka upgraded F-7), which collapsed and resulted in CAC offering the PAF a new design in the Super-7 (i.e. JF-17).

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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> We have a senior and well-respected poster on PDF who has said so. I'm sure he too would be a fanboy to you, since that's the depth of your intellect.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/introducing-jf-17-thunder-block-ii.382544/page-9#post-8427665
> 
> Here is a hint. If you do your own research, you will find the proverbial golden goose. But I don't spoon-feed people incapable of research and polite conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very interesting and well-written post, as usual from you Shabi1. But do you have any more information on the current BVR on the Mirages? Given the number of AMRAAMs bought, it would suggest PAF may have them on the Mirages as well as the F-16s. AAMs have about a decade of shelf-life. R-Darters in that case are probably phased out by now from the Mirage fleet. Unless the missiles where rebuilt.


You must be kidding ... You are claiming that an aircraft 50 years old is modified with RAM (the tech with which Pakistan haa no access) and rcs is reduced and i am supposed to believe that ... I am not a fanboy ... There is no senior professional guy that can claim such stupidity ... Mirrage specializes in low flying i.e. flying below radar horizon and thats how they avoid radar derection ... This is the role of mirrage in PAF ... I.e. low flying and sneak into enemy territory and strike ... Otherwise its radar is pathtic and way too old and short ranged too ... There is no way that you can convert that old aircraft into bvr capable as it is not even suitable to WVR fights ... 

If you think i am being rude than i am sorry but telling the truth is not rudness ...


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## Armchair

The Accountant said:


> You must be kidding ... You are claiming that an aircraft 50 years old is modified with RAM (the tech with which Pakistan haa no access) and rcs is reduced and i am supposed to believe that ... I am not a fanboy ... There is no senior professional guy that can claim such stupidity ... Mirrage specializes in low flying i.e. flying below radar horizon and thats how they avoid radar derection ... This is the role of mirrage in PAF ... I.e. low flying and sneak into enemy territory and strike ... Otherwise its radar is pathtic and way too old and short ranged too ... There is no way that you can convert that old aircraft into bvr capable as it is not even suitable to WVR fights ...
> 
> If you think i am being rude than i am sorry but telling the truth is not rudness ...



It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They took an alternate route ... Sabre II (aka upgraded F-7), which collapsed and resulted in CAC offering the PAF a new design in the Super-7 (i.e. JF-17).


The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.

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## AMG_12

Armchair said:


> It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote.
> 
> 
> The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.


Anyone can be a senior on this forum, you're promoted on the basis of numbers, not credibility..


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## Armchair

Game.Invade said:


> Anyone can be a senior on this forum, you're promoted on the basis of numbers, not credibility..



There are posters here who are considered senior not because of the automated forum ranking but because of who they are. People for instance, like Oscar who has a long history of posting and is known to have been involved in military R&D. And so many others. I'm not here to babysit you, so this will be my last response to the kids on this thread.

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## khanasifm

Lenardo had Grifo M5 for mirage 5 but paf never went for it not sure why ??

It’s not true that nose of mirage 5 was too small compared to mirage 3 for a decent full scan radar vs a ranging radar which most 5 version had infact M5 was larger Antena 51 cm vs 47 for M3 

May be required extensive mod plus more $$$


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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote.
> 
> 
> The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.


Brother you posted about a rumour and i said its fan boy stuff ... How is it disrespectful? You can share the link of the quote stating that mirrage was ram quoted and i will enquire with that senior directly the source of info ...

Regarding the link you shared it is all about thunder and i completely agree with that post but cant agree that mirrage was RAM quoted ...

If it is about agree to disagree then same goes for you ...

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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Lenardo had Grifo M5 for mirage 5 but paf never went for it not sure why ??
> 
> It’s not true that nose of mirage 5 was too small compared to mirage 3 for a decent full scan radar vs a ranging radar which most 5 version had infact M5 was larger Antena 51 cm vs 47 for M3
> 
> May be required extensive mod plus more $$$
> 
> View attachment 479146


The nose of Mirage 5 can and was replaced as part of the evolution from Nesher to Kfir program with a Elta's radar.


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## araz

Armchair said:


> It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote.
> 
> 
> The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.


Interesting thought but in our development cycle were we capable of adopting and integrating the technologies required for a productive outcome. Remember that at that time we chose 16s instead of the F20. Also interesting to explore what the US would actually have offered us. There was also news of the US Offering to shift the 16s assembly over to us. But again unsubstantiated. I think there has been a trust deficit in the Pak-US relationship which has not allowed us to take that step. The French were a better bet but the 1977 back down from supplying us a Nuke reprocessing plant put an end to that as well plus the french charge heavily for their products as well as spares issues. I think PAF has only gone down the route as China has improved its commodities to a sufficient level and the price vs quality equilibrium suits the Pak defence establishment plus the trust between the 2 nations.
A

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote.
> 
> 
> The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.




Hi,

I did not want to say it openly---but to support you---I have to say it---.

Yes it happened---.

An enemy agent would disagree vehemently to make you confirm what you stated---.

It was the F1 mirage that would be the best bang for he buck for Pakistan---.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When the PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16 (late 1980s), Dassault had offered to shift the Mirage F-1 production line to PAC. Imagine if that had been there ... coupled with South Africa's work on the Cheetah and Russia's RD-93 turbofan engine...



While the Mirage F-1 would have been a better aircraft, we don't know much about the associated costs. It might have been ostentatious and hence why PAF went for the cheaper route trying to develop the Super 7 concept.

As for the upgrade akin what South Africans did with the RD-33, it would not have been possible at all since Pakistan was firmly in the US camp and in fact openly hostile to USSR. 

As for the upgrade revolving around the Atar 9K-50, it would have been a lot more sensible, however, a few questions arise that should be considered first. PAC Kamra established the Atar 09C Engine Overhaul Wing in 1982, 4 years after establishing the MRF in 1978. Now, if you are in PAF, would it make sense to now try to completely change the engine across its fleet in the same decade after investing in infrastructure? That would have been scandalous to the extreme and totally inefficient use of funds.
The second question would be, are Mirage 3/5 considered under powered by the PAF for there to be a reason for an engine change to begin with? Maybe the change in thrust did not justify the extra expense?

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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> While the Mirage F-1 would have been a better aircraft, we don't know much about the associated costs. It might have been ostentatious and hence why PAF went for the cheaper route trying to develop the Super 7 concept.
> 
> As for the upgrade akin what South Africans did with the RD-33, it would not have been possible at all since Pakistan was firmly in the US camp and in fact openly hostile to USSR.
> 
> As for the upgrade revolving around the Atar 9K-50, it would have been a lot more sensible, however, a few questions arise that should be considered first. PAC Kamra established the Atar 09C Engine Overhaul Wing in 1982, 4 years after establishing the MRF in 1978. Now, if you are in PAF, would it make sense to now try to completely change the engine across its fleet in the same decade after investing in infrastructure? That would have been scandalous to the extreme and totally inefficient use of funds.
> The second question would be, are Mirage 3/5 considered under powered by the PAF for there to be a reason for an engine change to begin with? Maybe the change in thrust did not justify the extra expense?


I do recall reports that Mr Mushraf was looking to procure 2nd hand F1s during his tenure as well; I dont know what changed but it would have easily replaced a lot of the older Mirage 3s. 
Anyway an entire decade was wasted by indecision and vested interests.

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## MastanKhan

mzeeshanfahd said:


> so what stopped them from shifting the line ...... there must be some alternate logic .... or was it plane treachery ..... a zardari/noora in uniform ....



Hi,

You should get it by now---the treachery was not from the politicians----it was from the PAF---.

The F16 provided lucrative jobs in the 'present of that time' and future for the Paf officers---. Many got attached to GD / Lockmart---.

One of our most respectable member here was also a ------ ---. He ---- pakistan for his personal benefit---.

Mirage F1 would not have provided any foreign jobs for the Paf retiree officers---as did the F16's. Not many countries flew F1---.

God has given you people brains---use it---think about it---France is a super power---standing alone---developing its war machine on its own---.

It Mirage 3 / 5 were tier 1 aircraft of their time---then why would this country produce a lesser aircraft---.

The F1 was an extremely superior aircraft---just because the Mirage 2000 came into being did not mean that Mirage F1 had no value---those who say that are lying topakistan.

Our current aircraft the JF17 BLK is of the same capability as the Mirage F1 was---.

The more I look deeper into it---the more I believe---that the Paf never had any intentions of becoming a strong air force to challenge the indian air force---after the 1965 war---.

Paf heirarchy learnt to just trundle along and find ways to make money---.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You should get it by now---the treachery was not from the politicians----it was from the PAF---.
> 
> The F16 provided lucrative jobs in the 'present of that time' and future for the Paf officers---. Many got attached to GD / Lockmart---.
> 
> One of our most respectable member here was also a ------ ---. He ---- pakistan for his personal benefit---.
> 
> Mirage F1 would not have provided any foreign jobs for the Paf retiree officers---as did the F16's. Not many countries flew F1---.
> 
> God has given you people brains---use it---think about it---France is a super power---standing alone---developing its war machine on its own---.
> 
> It Mirage 3 / 5 were tier 1 aircraft of their time---then why would this country produce a lesser aircraft---.
> 
> The F1 was an extremely superior aircraft---just because the Mirage 2000 came into being did not mean that Mirage F1 had no value---those who say that are lying topakistan.
> 
> Our current aircraft the JF17 BLK is of the same capability as the Mirage F1 was---.
> 
> The more I look deeper into it---the more I believe---that the Paf never had any intentions of becoming a strong air force to challenge the indian air force---after the 1965 war---.
> 
> Paf heirarchy learnt to just trundle along and find ways to make money---.



MK what about the F-20 Tigershark? Grumman was never good with politics or offering lucrative job and it really cost it. But at that time, in the 80s, they were openly willing to sell their production line. F-20 was a beast of an aircraft. The grandfather of the Gripen / JFT / FCK-1

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## salman-1

As far as I remember Mirage F-1 were a back up plan if thunder program fails or drop, due to non availability of engines or other key parts.


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## The Accountant

salman-1 said:


> As far as I remember Mirage F-1 were a back up plan if thunder program fails or drop, due to non availability of engines or other key parts.



What we are discussing here ia a scenario after 30 years ... Nobody knows back then that US will ditch us so bad ... In 80s f16 was a beast and india had no answere for that for 2 decades ... However the real treachery or stupidity was done in 2007 in purchasing block 52,,, despite having all the historical treachery od US,, pakistan still opted for block 52 ... Its criminal ...

Pakistan should have used that support money in buying some other equipments or transfer of tech ...

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> What we are discussing here ia a scenario after 30 years ... Nobody knows back then that US will ditch us so bad ... In 80s f16 was a beast and india had no answere for that for 2 decades ... However the real treachery or stupidity was done in 2007 in purchasing block 52,,, despite having all the historical treachery od US,, pakistan still opted for block 52 ... Its criminal ...
> 
> Pakistan should have used that support money in buying some other equipments or transfer of tech ...



Hi,

We all old dogs knew that the U S will ditch in 10 years---our love affair has always been for roughly around a decade---so---if you did not know it---you must be very young at time---and there is nothing wrong with that---everyone has to grow up and learn in their age group---.

But to make a whitewash kind of general statement does not look good---.

All pakistan's sincere friends were advising Paf to not go for the 2nd batch of the F16's---they also warned of sanctions may happen---because the bill was put in multiple times---.

It was the Paf that has lied to Pakistanis--made Pakistani public angry at the US---created an animosity between the Pakistani public and the US by blatantly lying to the Pakistani public about the F16 fiasco---.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> While the Mirage F-1 would have been a better aircraft, we don't know much about the associated costs. It might have been ostentatious and hence why PAF went for the cheaper route trying to develop the Super 7 concept.
> 
> As for the upgrade akin what South Africans did with the RD-33, it would not have been possible at all since Pakistan was firmly in the US camp and in fact openly hostile to USSR.
> 
> As for the upgrade revolving around the Atar 9K-50, it would have been a lot more sensible, however, a few questions arise that should be considered first. PAC Kamra established the Atar 09C Engine Overhaul Wing in 1982, 4 years after establishing the MRF in 1978. Now, if you are in PAF, would it make sense to now try to completely change the engine across its fleet in the same decade after investing in infrastructure? That would have been scandalous to the extreme and totally inefficient use of funds.
> The second question would be, are Mirage 3/5 considered under powered by the PAF for there to be a reason for an engine change to begin with? Maybe the change in thrust did not justify the extra expense?


Several PAF people who had flown the F-1s in Qatar said it was relatively underpowered.

However, some hoped Dassault would install the M53 along with the F2000 radar, avionics and weapons suite in the making (which the PAF later wanted for the JF-17). But with Dassault pushing for M2K sales, it wasn't going to make a potential (and lower cost) competitor out of the F1, so the M53 was out of the question. 

The RD-33 (SMR-93) bit was more hindsight based. Though Pakistan had enmity with the Soviets, the Russia of the 1990s was desperate for cash, even if it meant selling stuff to Pakistan. That's when talks for the Su-27 began in earnest (albeit to put pressure on the US to release F-16s). 

Had PAC possessed the F1 manufacturing line, it might have been able to solve the underpowered engine issue by seeking the SMR-93 from Russia, perhaps do a joint project to create a vastly and rebuilt F1 with South Africa through the 1990s. 

But you can't fault them for that as in the late 1980s the Soviets were still around. I think the best time to have gotten the F1 was the late 1970s. As per WikiLeaks, the Carter Administration offered to help Pakistan get loans for it and the M2K to shore up its capabilities vs the Soviets in Afghanistan. This was before Reagan's liberalization of policy on restricting sensitive US tech to non-NATO states.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> We all old dogs knew that the U S will ditch in 10 years---our love affair has always been for roughly around a decade---so---if you did not know it---you must be very young at time---and there is nothing wrong with that---everyone has to grow up and learn in their age group---.
> 
> But to make a whitewash kind of general statement does not look good---.
> 
> All pakistan's sincere friends were advising Paf to not go for the 2nd batch of the F16's---they also warned of sanctions may happen---because the bill was put in multiple times---.
> 
> It was the Paf that has lied to Pakistanis--made Pakistani public angry at the US---created an animosity between the Pakistani public and the US by blatantly lying to the Pakistani public about the F16 fiasco---.


Correct, we lived thru those earlier times. RSA - we were given the stick on every level including by the French; hence as a result we never use US equipment by its very default and charted a new course long ago. Unless there is a serious commitment it wont change, this story will repeat itself again.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Several PAF people who had flown the F-1s in Qatar said it was relatively underpowered.
> 
> However, some hoped Dassault would install the M53 along with the F2000 radar, avionics and weapons suite in the making (which the PAF later wanted for the JF-17). But with Dassault pushing for M2K sales, it wasn't going to make a potential (and lower cost) competitor out of the F1, so the M53 was out of the question.
> 
> The RD-33 (SMR-93) bit was more hindsight based. Though Pakistan had enmity with the Soviets, the Russia of the 1990s was desperate for cash, even if it meant selling stuff to Pakistan. That's when talks for the Su-27 began in earnest (albeit to put pressure on the US to release F-16s).
> 
> Had PAC possessed the F1 manufacturing line, it might have been able to solve the underpowered engine issue by seeking the SMR-93 from Russia, perhaps do a joint project to create a vastly and rebuilt F1 with South Africa through the 1990s.
> 
> But you can't fault them for that as in the late 1980s the Soviets were still around. I think the best time to have gotten the F1 was the late 1970s. As per WikiLeaks, the Carter Administration offered to help Pakistan get loans for it and the M2K to shore up its capabilities vs the Soviets in Afghanistan. This was before Reagan's liberalization of policy on restricting sensitive US tech to non-NATO states.



Hi,

Thank you Bilal---. If you throw it against the wall---some of it would stick---and then others will come out with their knowledge of the truth---and when you join the strands---a bigger truth would come out---.

What was happening in the late 80's was that the Pakistani well wishers were telling Paf to go for the M2K's---.

That would stop the sanctions---why---because sanctions only work when you don't have the options---.

But then what would happen to the cushy jobs that the Paf senior officers had lined up with General Dynamics----!!!!

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## bananarepublic

Did people forget another opportunity Pakistan had in 2004 regarding mirage 4000 if Pakistan would have pushed saudia arabia then maybe Pakistan might have had its own equivalent of f15/su27 aircraft .
And at that time paf were in serious talks with the French to buy the rafele and we did not have any budgetary constraints too.


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## denel

bananarepublic said:


> Did people forget another opportunity Pakistan had in 2004 regarding mirage 4000 if Pakistan would have pushed saudia arabia then maybe Pakistan might have had its own equivalent of f15/su27 aircraft .
> And at that time paf were in serious talks with the French to buy the rafele and we did not have any budgetary constraints too.


I doubt that very much. Mirage 4000 was a challenge to get off the ground in terms of feasibility and would have been extremely expensive. Remember even now 2 engine is met with resistance back in 2004 it would be a nono.

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## ziaulislam

The Accountant said:


> What we are discussing here ia a scenario after 30 years ... Nobody knows back then that US will ditch us so bad ... In 80s f16 was a beast and india had no answere for that for 2 decades ... However the real treachery or stupidity was done in 2007 in purchasing block 52,,, despite having all the historical treachery od US,, pakistan still opted for block 52 ... Its criminal ...
> 
> Pakistan should have used that support money in buying some other equipments or transfer of tech ...


Block52 only costed 1.3 billion dollars ..a negligible investment...
Rest was weapons and update for older f16(no one should argue against that) all this(weapons+63 block52 upgrade and new) costed around 2.3 billion dollars only..you cant even buy 8 rafales for this money

I would argue the mistake was to ditch the original plan for acquiring 66 aircarfts(36 new and 30 old) at cost of 5 billion dollars to 18+18 and then never excercing the 18

This was done back of earthquake and mush was u under pressure from politicians to cut spending especially PPPP which was the majority party though not in govt

Than we saw what happened 2008-2013

There were several other deals in that era(2003_2008)..you got the Saab the p3 orion's frigates etc

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## ziaulislam

Financially Pakistan is stronger today than it was in 2003 ..this is fact though with some CAD issues today


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## The Accountant

ziaulislam said:


> Block52 only costed 1.3 billion dollars ..a negligible investment...
> Rest was weapons and update for older f16(no one should argue against that) all this(weapons+63 block52 upgrade and new) costed around 2.3 billion dollars only..you cant even buy 8 rafales for this money
> 
> I would argue the mistake was to ditch the original plan for acquiring 66 aircarfts(36 new and 30 old) at cost of 5 billion dollars to 18+18 and then never excercing the 18
> 
> This was done back of earthquake and mush was u under pressure from politicians to cut spending especially PPPP which was the majority party though not in govt
> 
> Than we saw what happened 2008-2013
> 
> There were several other deals in that era(2003_2008)..you got the Saab the p3 orion's frigates etc


Agreed bro but whats the use of an aircraft which will be sanctioned in case of war has no realistic plans of upgrade and is attached woth strings ?

Aircrafts are for fighting wars and not for show ... We always know even right now the moment we have a war with india our spares anf ammunitions will be blocked so this 2.3 billion dollar investment is just for show ? 8 planes rather than 18 but free from strings and with future upgrade potential are better



ziaulislam said:


> Financially Pakistan is stronger today than it was in 2003 ..this is fact though with some CAD issues today


No bro 2003 was the year when we started booming ...


----------



## ziaulislam

The Accountant said:


> Agreed bro but whats the use of an aircraft which will be sanctioned in case of war has no realistic plans of upgrade and is attached woth strings ?
> 
> Aircrafts are for fighting wars and not for show ... We always know even right now the moment we have a war with india our spares anf ammunitions will be blocked so this 2.3 billion dollar investment is just for show ? 8 planes rather than 18 but free from strings and with future upgrade potential are better
> 
> 
> No bro 2003 was the year when we started booming ...


this is where you are right and wrong as well..

did we got sanctioned in last 15 years..NO..so you are wrong on account of sanctions, do we expect to get sanctioned during war, well not before the war is over(wont last more than couple of days), and probably not after the war is settled,* and who knows whether we will have flying f16s left!*

so ideally we shouldn't have gone for f16s but the decision was done in 1980s and if we wanted to go for another platefrom than 2.3 billion is not enough, you would need atleast 6-8 billion dollars..
*
as 2.3B this will only get you 8 rafales or even less if weapons are counted vs 63 f-16s *(18+ 45 getting complete new look +weapons) both were similar platforms than before rafales got there AESA
there is no comaprsion, the decision is straight forward

now one can argue why did we brought more..but thing is we have been under IMF since 2008, poor policies and lack of structural reforms, if any reforms happened it happened under IMF, all credit of our development goes to IMF, our politicians ***w up things than IMF comes and correct things and cycle is repeated, be it privatization, taxation, liberalization, everything has been done under IMF...only this time IMF was laxed, otherwise you would have seen PIA, steel mills go away which ate 1 trillion rupees...

if concept of people is "agar khata hey tou lagata be hey" irrespective of party politics than what do you expect? in every country there is corruption but in this country there is clear disregard for a convict and complete disregard for corruption

IMF is blamed for inflation and austerity, but IMF usually wants to jump correct things in months as compared to years that are needed..yes IMF destroys economies in short run but if it doesnt come instead of destroyed you get a collapse

india is booming yet you dont see it trying to match china as it knows USSR didnt collapse due to war but failure of its *social services *and econmy 

*PS:
go look at your budget and purchasing power than and now, the economy has tripled since than*

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## The Accountant

Brother we got sanctioned in 1965 (at time we were ally of US)
We got sanctioned in 1971
We did not get sanctioned in last 15 years because we didnt had any war ...
I again retreat 8 functioning and sanctioned free planes are better than 18 sanctioned prone planes and for the same reason thunder is a wonderful project and is admired despite of being inferior to block 52



ziaulislam said:


> this is where you are right and wrong as well..
> 
> did we got sanctioned in last 15 years..NO..so you are wrong on account of sanctions, do we expect to get sanctioned during war, well not before the war is over(wont last more than couple of days), and probably not after the war is settled,* and who knows whether we will have flying f16s left!*
> 
> so ideally we shouldn't have gone for f16s but the decision was done in 1980s and if we wanted to go for another platefrom than 2.3 billion is not enough, you would need atleast 6-8 billion dollars..
> *
> as 2.3B this will only get you 8 rafales or even less if weapons are counted vs 63 f-16s *(18+ 45 getting complete new look +weapons) both were similar platforms than before rafales got there AESA
> there is no comaprsion, the decision is straight forward
> 
> now one can argue why did we brought more..but thing is we have been under IMF since 2008, poor policies and lack of structural reforms, if any reforms happened it happened under IMF, all credit of our development goes to IMF, our politicians ***w up things than IMF comes and correct things and cycle is repeated, be it privatization, taxation, liberalization, everything has been done under IMF...only this time IMF was laxed, otherwise you would have seen PIA, steel mills go away which ate 1 trillion rupees...
> 
> if concept of people is "agar khata hey tou lagata be hey" irrespective of party politics than what do you expect? in every country there is corruption but in this country there is clear disregard for a convict and complete disregard for corruption
> 
> IMF is blamed for inflation and austerity, but IMF usually wants to jump correct things in months as compared to years that are needed..yes IMF destroys economies in short run but if it doesnt come instead of destroyed you get a collapse
> 
> india is booming yet you dont see it trying to match china as it knows USSR didnt collapse due to war but failure of its *social services *and econmy
> 
> *PS:
> go look at your budget and purchasing power than and now, the economy has tripled since than*

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## fatman17

All Types of Mirages in Pakistan Air Force.
PAF still has six Mirage squadrons named Sq7 Bandits, Sq8 Haiders, Sq15 Cobras, Sq22 Ghazis, Sq25 Night Strike Eagles and Sq27 Zarrars.
Mirages are also part of Combat Commander School of Pakistan Air Force. https://t.co/Tklbo2ile1

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## khanasifm

I think all jf-17 past 150 number will be replacing mirages so if goes to 250 than 100 or so jf will cover the six sqn 

Pg will go next replaced by block iii as the airframe life for f-7s is less than 3000 hours between 26-2800 hours though pac did extended Ft-7 past life w/o OEM recommendations on its own ( couple hundred Hours per Ac) with help from Australians structures analysis company same perhaps the one which helped with ft-5

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## GriffinsRule

fatman17 said:


> All Types of Mirages in Pakistan Air Force.
> PAF still has six Mirage squadrons named Sq7 Bandits, Sq8 Haiders, Sq15 Cobras, Sq22 Ghazis, Sq25 Night Strike Eagles and Sq27 Zarrars.
> Mirages are also part of Combat Commander School of Pakistan Air Force. https://t.co/Tklbo2ile1
> View attachment 480145



Thanks @fatman17 for posting the image I created and already posted on this thread =P

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/capabilities-of-paf-dassault-mirage-iii-v.44991/page-93#post-10347494

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> Brother we got sanctioned in 1965 (at time we were ally of US)
> We got sanctioned in 1971
> We did not get sanctioned in last 15 years because we didnt had any war ...
> I again retreat 8 functioning and sanctioned free planes are better than 18 sanctioned prone planes and for the same reason thunder is a wonderful project and is admired despite of being inferior to block 52



Hi,

Sanctions only happen when you do not have a similar equipment---. For that reason---diversity was a must---the diversity was the M2K---.

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## ziaulislam

The Accountant said:


> Brother we got sanctioned in 1965 (at time we were ally of US)
> We got sanctioned in 1971
> We did not get sanctioned in last 15 years because we didnt had any war ...
> I again retreat 8 functioning and sanctioned free planes are better than 18 sanctioned prone planes and for the same reason thunder is a wonderful project and is admired despite of being inferior to block 52


It's not 8 vs 18, its 8 vs 63
.....

Nice to see mirages still flying. I think PGs will go first


----------



## fatman17

GriffinsRule said:


> Thanks @fatman17 for posting the image I created and already posted on this thread =P
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/capabilities-of-paf-dassault-mirage-iii-v.44991/page-93#post-10347494


Ok nice to know


----------



## Talon

Mirage 3 EA 90-511 of No. 7 Bandits with modified nose and recce cams..

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## Incog_nito

Hodor said:


> Mirage 3 EA 90-511 of No. 7 Bandits with modified nose and recce cams..
> View attachment 482000


This is the most amazing thing. I would like to say PAC Kamra is the best when it comes to modifications. Although, my idea was that convert RP ones into regular mirages with radar inside their noses and buy some pods from France or other EU country; to be carried underbelly for reconnaissance.


----------



## khanasifm

IM Ozair said:


> This is the most amazing thing. I would like to say PAC Kamra is the best when it comes to modifications. Although, my idea was that convert RP ones into regular mirages with radar inside their noses and buy some pods from France or other EU country; to be carried underbelly for reconnaissance.



Paf/pac acquires 76 Libyan mirages only 10 recovered rest concerted to spares
The 10 included Recci and dual seaters so not sure what’s the future of these recci mirages 

Cheers


----------



## denel

khanasifm said:


> Paf/pac acquires 76 Libyan mirages only 10 recovered rest concerted to spares
> The 10 included Recci and dual seaters so not sure what’s the future of these recci mirages
> 
> Cheers


Was it not a lot of new engines as well?

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## Armchair

@khanasifm where the recovered Libyan Mirages ever upgraded to the ROSE standard?


----------



## fatman17

denel said:


> Was it not a lot of new engines as well?


Yes

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## Hayreddin

We are in desperate need of used and upgraded mirage 2k atleast 3 to 4 sqdn to overcome the gap for next 1 decade . Already got related infrastructure and experience.


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## Bossman

Hayreddin said:


> We are in desperate need of used and upgraded mirage 2k atleast 3 to 4 sqdn to overcome the gap for next 1 decade . Already got related infrastructure and experience.


No we are not.


----------



## The Accountant

Hayreddin said:


> We are in desperate need of used and upgraded mirage 2k atleast 3 to 4 sqdn to overcome the gap for next 1 decade . Already got related infrastructure and experience.


M2K and mirrages are totally different planes and share nothing but the name ...

Inducting them will be nothing more than stupidity even if they are free as cost of induction integration and training will surpass the benefits we will have for the remaining useful life which is no more than 10 years ...

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## denel

The Accountant said:


> M2K and mirrages are totally different planes and share nothing but the name ...
> 
> Inducting them will be nothing more than stupidity even if they are free as cost of induction integration and training will surpass the benefits we will have for the remaining useful life which is no more than 10 years ...


200% agreed. everything is different and wholescale re-training and facilities upgrade/parts supply etc will need to be sought; unlike M3/5 where there was a large scale inventory from various countries being discarded; M2K is not in same boat.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> 200% agreed. everything is different and wholescale re-training and facilities upgrade/parts supply etc will need to be sought; unlike M3/5 where there was a large scale inventory from various countries being discarded; M2K is not in same boat.



Hi,

That would be agreeable---but the French engineering principals have not changed from Mirage 3/5 to M2K---.

The difference would be a stair step progression---.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That would be agreeable---but the French engineering principals have not changed from Mirage 3/5 to M2K---.
> 
> The difference would be a stair step progression---.



Its not about engineering principle but about integration with current Command and control system of Pakistan and the current weapon system being operated and alteration in maintenance facility and training ... Plus upgradation ... This will easily cost billion dollar plus

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> Its not about engineering principle but about integration with current Command and control system of Pakistan and the current weapon system being operated and alteration in maintenance facility and training ... Plus upgradation ... This will easily cost billion dollar plus



HAHAHA,

Seems like you have never worked on an engine or machinery---and neither you have any clue to what you have just stated---.

Just winged it with both barrells in the hope that the grape shot might hit a vital point---.

I am just fcking laughing so hard---.

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## The Accountant

You are free to laugh and have your opinion but this is not about engine and machines but about digital world and its avionics ... 

Avionics of each aircraft is different and hence required a new treatment ... Furthermore what do you think french keep on using the same tech as they were using in mirrage 3 and 5 ... This is similar to saying that as both prius and corolla are made by toyota and are vehicles and have engines therefore your old mechanic can overhaul prius as well ... Good luck with that


MastanKhan said:


> HAHAHA,
> 
> Seems like you have never worked on an engine or machinery---and neither you have any clue to what you have just stated---.
> 
> Just winged it with both barrells in the hope that the grape shot might hit a vital point---.
> 
> I am just fcking laughing so hard---.

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> You are free to laugh and have your opinion but this is not about engine and machines but about digital world and its avionics ...
> 
> Avionics of each aircraft is different and hence required a new treatment ... Furthermore what do you think french keep on using the same tech as they were using in mirrage 3 and 5 ... This is similar to saying that as both prius and corolla are made by toyota and are vehicles and have engines therefore your old mechanic can overhaul prius as well ... Good luck with that



Hi,

Between the Mirage 3 and M2K---the difference is not that of Prius and corolla---but that of a 70's corolla and mid 2000 corolla.

That was a stair step progression---which is a natural phenomenon in technical growth---.

When the name of the manufacturer is the same---appearances similar---many a panels similar---you have then crossed many a hurdles in learning of a new product---. The human brain now accepts the new product and the learning curve is faster---.

The M2K of the 80's was no technical wonder---and not a big difference in electronics either---just a newer product---.


----------



## mosu

Today dropped by mirages near berani city

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Between the Mirage 3 and M2K---the difference is not that of Prius and corolla---but that of a 70's corolla and mid 2000 corolla.
> 
> That was a stair step progression---which is a natural phenomenon in technical growth---.
> 
> When the name of the manufacturer is the same---appearances similar---many a panels similar---you have then crossed many a hurdles in learning of a new product---. The human brain now accepts the new product and the learning curve is faster---.
> 
> The M2K of the 80's was no technical wonder---and not a big difference in electronics either---just a newer product---.


But i think mirrage 2000-5 or 2000-9 which should be our target are entierly new machines ... What we are comparing is turbojet vs turbofan, fbw vs hydraulic controls, different avionics, entierly different radar, no connectivity to link 17, no ability to fire lot of ammunitions in Pakistan's inventory unless integration ...

In short cost of induction will be huge as compared to benwfits to be enjoyed in remaining life ...


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## khanasifm

Mirage carry 1300 litres tanks mirage also had 1700 litres tanks but I think paf only had 1300 and 600 liters supersonic tanks on mirages

This one seems to be 1300 liters tank


----------



## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> But i think mirrage 2000-5 or 2000-9 which should be our target are entierly new machines ... What we are comparing is turbojet vs turbofan, fbw vs hydraulic controls, different avionics, entierly different radar, no connectivity to link 17, no ability to fire lot of ammunitions in Pakistan's inventory unless integration ...
> 
> In short cost of induction will be huge as compared to benwfits to be enjoyed in remaining life ...



Hi,

Paf engineers and techs are already exposed to 4th gen fighter aircraft technology---.

They understand the american machine---the BLK52---they understand the chinese machine the JF17 BLK2---they understand the older mirages with upgrades---.

So---for these guys---the issue is not of maintaining and managing the aircraft---.

If Paf wanted to---it can recall some of its retd personal who worked in the emirates to give the system a boost to get going---.

But the thing is---it has to do something to get the ball rolling in whichever direction-. Our air force is woefully equipped at this time---.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Paf engineers and techs are already exposed to 4th gen fighter aircraft technology---.
> 
> They understand the american machine---the BLK52---they understand the chinese machine the JF17 BLK2---they understand the older mirages with upgrades---.
> 
> So---for these guys---the issue is not of maintaining and managing the aircraft---.
> 
> If Paf wanted to---it can recall some of its retd personal who worked in the emirates to give the system a boost to get going---.
> 
> But the thing is---it has to do something to get the ball rolling in whichever direction-. Our air force is woefully equipped at this time---.


Agreed a twin engine 4.5 generation is a must ...

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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1014883836906360832


----------



## Windjammer



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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 492638


Not a fan of Mirages but great picture !!! Thanks for the share.

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## Dazzler

ROSE Mir caught another Mir prior to take off..

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## Incog_nito

Dazzler said:


> ROSE Mir caught another Mir prior to take off..


WOW! But I think they are gonna soon be replaced by JF-17 Block-3

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## khanasifm

I think pg are gong before mirages

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> I think pg are gong before mirages


So basically whole F7 series is going to retire first.


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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> So basically whole F7 series is going to retire first.



There may be few exceptions for example if some the older mirage sqn like 15 with oldest mirages but as far as I know mirage has more airframe life 8000 hours vs f-7s 26-2800 hours But there is also minor parts which are more problematic then major one 

Lastly mirage provide longer reach stand off attack capability vs short leg air defense of f-7 which is now covered by f-16 plus jf 

I am guessing here, time 
Will tell, paf still flying f-7 in the new temp shooter sqn as LIFT , may be 50-60 odd hour per airframe left can be utilised as well till the end

Anyway paf plan to keep 20-22 (including 1 fcu) fighter sqn and close to 360-400 fighters ie ratio of atleast 1:2 with India in numbers for now

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## Ahmet Pasha

Is Mig 35 a good option for maritime ops???


----------



## Path-Finder



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## Dazzler

Smart HUD 1000 (ROSE II/III)

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## khanasifm

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 501040
> View attachment 501041
> View attachment 501042




looks like SAAB2k even falcon-20 now part of MRF portfolio

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## Ali_Baba

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 501040



That looks brand new, just as if left the production line !

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## Ultima Thule

Ali_Baba said:


> That looks brand new, just as if left the production line !


Overhauled @Ali_Baba


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## Path-Finder

Are they upgrading the nose cone? possibly fit it with a better radar!


----------



## Ultima Thule

Path-Finder said:


> Are they upgrading the nose cone? possibly fit it with a better radar!


I think its not possibility, Mirage is going to replace by JF-17 soon @Path-Finder

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## Readerdefence

pakistanipower said:


> I think its not possibility, Mirage is going to replace by JF-17 soon @Path-Finder


Hi my friend I have doubts on soon as Mirages are the only jets able to carry Raad and been able
To do deep strike so until jf17 able to carry Raad kind of missile not possible 
Thank you

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## khanasifm

Path-Finder said:


> Are they upgrading the nose cone? possibly fit it with a better radar!



Mirage 3 Grifo 3 and for mirage 5 Grifo 5 were available but paf only went with Grifo 3 not sure why

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## Path-Finder

khanasifm said:


> Mirage 3 Grifo 3 and for mirage 5 Grifo 5 were available but paf only went with Grifo 3 not sure why
> 
> View attachment 503406


Last month in the defence day documentary they showed mirage with nose cones. Do they house radar?


----------



## TOPGUN

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 501040
> View attachment 501041
> View attachment 501042



Guys if you notice in third picture there is our Falcon DA-20 having some work on it nice !!


----------



## SQ8

TOPGUN said:


> Guys if you notice in third picture there is our Falcon DA-20 having some work on it nice !!


Pretty routine. Sometimes they come in for equipment fit as well- the current fit on them is in some cases comparable to Latest ELINT/EW planes.

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## araz

khanasifm said:


> Mirage 3 Grifo 3 and for mirage 5 Grifo 5 were available but paf only went with Grifo 3 not sure why
> 
> View attachment 503406


Radar diameter could not have been more than 4 cms different. What advantage would it have brought to the range and at what cost. This is what needs to be answered.
A

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1059409193751449602

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## silent hawk

Hats off to all those who fly and maintain the PAF Mirages


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## Dazzler

Night hunters during night time. 

ROSE III cockpit in full glory..

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## Maxpane

Interesting


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## Imran Khan

hope we replace them ASAP with some modern air frame like thunders


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## khanasifm

Dazzler said:


> Night hunters during night time.
> 
> ROSE III cockpit in full glory..
> View attachment 524518



Wondering if pac is upgrading older rose I and II to rose 3 standard cockpit at overhaul ? Only 14 Ac were part of rose 3 and 19 for rose 2 
Rose 1 were mirage 3 with grifos. Which along with rose 2 had single monochrome HDd

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## princefaisal

If Mirages will stay till 2025, then ROSE Mirages should be upgraded with Chinese air cooled aesa radars.


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## syed_yusuf

khanasifm said:


> Wondering if pac is upgrading older rose I and II to rose 3 standard cockpit at overhaul ? Only 14 Ac were part of rose 3 and 19 for rose 2
> Rose 1 were mirage 3 with grifos. Which along with rose 2 had single monochrome HDd


No they r not 

I don't see mirage beyond 2025 max. By PAF will have close to 250 JFT and 70+ falcons


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## SQ8

syed_yusuf said:


> No they r not
> 
> I don't see mirage beyond 2025 max. By PAF will have close to 250 JFT and 70+ falcons


150 JFT - attrition and rebuild excluded.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Take a bow Mirage Engineers Take a Bow .... parts look mint fresh
If we can just get an AESA for the Mirage or CPU upgrade would it not be nice















Technically if we just upgrade the Computers / Radar rest of plane looks in great shape

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## denel

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Take a bow Mirage Engineers Take a Bow .... parts look mint fresh
> If we can just get an AESA for the Mirage or CPU upgrade would it not be nice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Technically if we just upgrade the Computers / Radar rest of plane looks in great shape


It would have looked far better overall if it was converted over to Cheetah-C

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Time has come the mirage got a Pod based radar upgrade

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## GriffinsRule

Time to do anything with the Mirages in PAF is over long ago.

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## Ali_Baba

The Mirages have had their day, time to put them to rest. Best to focus on the JF17.

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## salman-1

Mirages have a French recce pod. It's just like a Big Fuel tank. I used to have its picture, but not yet. The Rp model was designed for it. It's still in use but as you know Paf doesn't show off with its gadgets.


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## HRK

LORAP pod (Long Range Aerial Reconnaissance)








and Nose Camera

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## Imran Khan



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## Dazzler



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## ZedZeeshan

Imran Khan said:


>


100% agree...lol...

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## Signalian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Time has come the mirage got a Pod based radar upgrade


So Time still has not come for Mirage replacement?

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## Talon

Signalian said:


> So Time still has not come for Mirage replacement?


In the whole PAF only one squadron (Mirage obviously) has H-Strike weapon capability(according to my knowledge)..so as far as this stays the same, mirages arent going anywhere (atleast with that certain sqn)

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## Tps43

Hodor said:


> In the whole PAF only one squadron (Mirage obviously) has H-Strike weapon capability(according to my knowledge)..so as far as this stays the same, mirages arent going anywhere (atleast with that certain sqn)


27th?


----------



## jupiter2007

*Are you moving toward Hongdu L-15 and Chengdu J-10C with TVC?*


----------



## TOPGUN

Hodor said:


> In the whole PAF only one squadron (Mirage obviously) has H-Strike weapon capability(according to my knowledge)..so as far as this stays the same, mirages arent going anywhere (atleast with that certain sqn)



What do you mean by H-Strike ?


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## HRK

TOPGUN said:


> What do you mean by H-Strike ?


H-2 and H-4

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## Shah_G

One of fav aircraft in PAF inventory, with radar jammers it's a nightmare for IAF.


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## salman-1

Apart from the H2 and H4. Mirages are the only one with Raad Cruise missiles. Along with Jf17 they are with MAR-1 ANTI RADIATION missiles. All Gids made Pgms, may be with Chinese too. And who knows with bvr too. What else we need to do with 3rd generation aircraft.

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## Signalian

Hodor said:


> In the whole PAF only one squadron (Mirage obviously) has H-Strike weapon capability(according to my knowledge)..so as far as this stays the same, mirages arent going anywhere (atleast with that certain sqn)


Which makes replacement a bigger priority than ever, putting these Mirages in reserve and inculcating their tech on new aircraft.

Redundancy.

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## Incog_nito

Are 160+ Mirage IIIs&Vs will be replaced by JF-17 Block-3?


----------



## fatman17

IM Ozair said:


> Are 160+ Mirage IIIs&Vs will be replaced by JF-17 Block-3?


No, 1 JFT = 2 Mirage aircraft in performance comparison.


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## The Accountant

fatman17 said:


> No, 1 JFT = 2 Mirage aircraft in performance comparison.


Infact more than 2 ... but is there any clarity about babur clearance for thunder and strategic strike role which is currently assigned to mirrages


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## syed_yusuf

IM Ozair said:


> Are 160+ Mirage IIIs&Vs will be replaced by JF-17 Block-3?


There are 5 mirage squadronsthat does not equal match to 160?


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## jupiter2007

IM Ozair said:


> Are 160+ Mirage IIIs&Vs will be replaced by JF-17 Block-3?



Well, Block 3 are still 3 years away so at least one squadron of Mirage should be replaced by block 2.


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## khanasifm

https://issuu.com/vishmeh/docs/181128-show-daily-day2_1/12?ff

7,8,15,22,25,27 and ccs that makes its ??


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## Cuirassier

khanasifm said:


> https://issuu.com/vishmeh/docs/181128-show-daily-day2_1/12?ff
> 
> 7,8,15,22,25,27 and ccs that makes its ??


133 Mirages, all types.


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## Ali_Baba

TF141 said:


> 133 Mirages, all types.



I can quite easily see PAF making more than 150 Block III JF17s. You only have to look at how many Mushtaq's were made to see there will be a long production run of the JF17 that may see it go past 300-350 units in PAF service once you factor in the Project Azm...

Project Azm, will mostly likely fail if PAF is trying to do a clean sheet greenfield design. Pakistan has no experience of even designing a basic propellor based plane like the Mushtaq, so going to a 5th Gen design for the first home grown plane is odd, and will be doomed to failure.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Avionics package is a bit older , while missile package might be ok , I just feel the pilot won't be able to analyse his 360 view and dangers in the most ideal fashion

Even with the 90's ugrade this is a bit outdated









Comparing with some upgrades done on Indian side






Indian fleet after some upgrade

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## Maxpane

Video uNavailable sir


Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Ali_Baba said:


> I can quite easily see PAF making more than 150 Block III JF17s. You only have to look at how many Mushtaq's were made to see there will be a long production run of the JF17 that may see it go past 300-350 units in PAF service once you factor in the Project Azm...
> 
> Project Azm, will mostly likely fail if PAF is trying to do a clean sheet greenfield design. Pakistan has no experience of even designing a basic propellor based plane like the Mushtaq, so going to a 5th Gen design for the first home grown plane is odd, and will be doomed to failure.


Pak folks are fast learners!!! They have also made JF-17 a done deal with foreign customers!!!According to the New York Times (read CIA), China is a part and parcel of this FGF project!!! And, the Chinese believe in Confucian philosophy of learning skills with time and patience, and nothing is unattainable with infinite painstaking and hard work!!! That's the beauty of working with the Yellow folks!!! One Tejas project is enough for this entire region of 3b+ folks....


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Pak folks are fast learners!!! They have also made JF-17 a done deal with foreign customers!!!According to the New York Times (read CIA), China is a part and parcel of this FGF project!!! And, the Chinese believe in Confucian philosophy of learning skills with time and patience, and nothing is unattainable with infinite painstaking and hard work!!! That's the beauty of working with the Yellow folks!!! One Tejas project is enough for this entire region of 3b+ folks....



They helped invent Math there is no shortage of man power and phd intellect

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## sparten

The Accountant said:


> Infact more than 2 ... but is there any clarity about babur clearance for thunder and strategic strike role which is currently assigned to mirrages


I believe the Strategic Strike role will be given to the Thunder Bravos.


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## The Accountant

sparten said:


> I believe the Strategic Strike role will be given to the Thunder Bravos.


Yes this seems to be the only option but whats the current status ... I want to know if the role is already transferred ...


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## ssethii

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Take a bow Mirage Engineers Take a Bow .... parts look mint fresh
> If we can just get an AESA for the Mirage or CPU upgrade would it not be nice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Technically if we just upgrade the Computers / Radar rest of plane looks in great shape


They are going through inhouse upgrades.

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## sparten

The Accountant said:


> Yes this seems to be the only option but whats the current status ... I want to know if the role is already transferred ...


Yes, the Block I had limited A2G capability, on end the Block II and Block II+ came into the fleet, the Thunders have taken over more and more of the nuclear role, except the stand off role, which I think is still with the ROSE II Mirages.


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## TOPGUN

This is where the FC-20 comes in to play if PAF plays its card right this time.

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## syed_yusuf

TOPGUN said:


> This is where the FC-20 comes in to play if PAF plays its card right this time.



Fc20is not coming 

Paf will go for 5th gen


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## TOPGUN

syed_yusuf said:


> Fc20is not coming
> 
> Paf will go for 5th gen



You are wrong just watch and see what happens next !!


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## Imran Khan

TOPGUN said:


> You are wrong just watch and see what happens next !!


we are watching it since 1947

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## TOPGUN

Imran Khan said:


> we are watching it since 1947



FC-20 wasn't around in 1947 and neither were we  watch and see what happens Imran things are changing my brother watch and see.

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## GriffinsRule

ssethii said:


> They are going through inhouse upgrades.



Not upgrades, just rebuild.



TOPGUN said:


> FC-20 wasn't around in 1947 and neither were we  watch and see what happens Imran things are changing my brother watch and see.



J-10 is not going to be a cheap aircraft to buy. I don't want us to waste precious funds just so we can have another jet in our orbat with its associated costs and infrastructure. Same funds can be used for so many other priorities, like Al-Khalid production, indigenous satellites and related SLVs, cyber warfare and security etc. J-10 should be low on the priority list as it eats into not only JF-17s production but delays funding for strategic imperatives like the AZM project for the PAF.

PAF is not under overwhelming threat or odds that are stacked very heavily against it right now, and in fact its position is getting stronger each time a new JF-17 rolls off the line. IMO we need to concentrate on that as far as any procurement's go.

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## Signalian

GriffinsRule said:


> PAF is not under overwhelming threat or odds that are stacked very heavily against it right now, and in fact its position is getting stronger each time a new JF-17 rolls off the line. IMO we need to concentrate on that as far as any procurement's go.


For the current war in western region as well as any future war, PAF has odds heavily stacked against it due to absence of some functionalities. A stronger Air Force prevents causalities on the ground, in the sea as well as civilians. 

PAF still lacks a dedicated EW fighter (not just an aircraft), enough numbers of fighters and transport aircraft to support Army and Navy simultaneously, a dedicated air to ground missile for JF-17, a 4.5 gen heavy aircraft for CAP or strike missions. In the longer run, a 5th gen aircraft to get air superiority over enemy, a 4th gen aircraft that could carry ALCM, a sanction free aircraft above F-16 category, Indian S-400, long range AAM's missing in PAF arsenal to give enemy AWACs a scare etc



TOPGUN said:


> This is where the FC-20 comes in to play if PAF plays its card right this time.


The only worthwhile plus that FC-20 offers is a "sanction free" plane. J-31 offers more.

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## ssethii

GriffinsRule said:


> Not upgrades, just rebuild.


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## TOPGUN

Signalian said:


> For the current war in western region as well as any future war, PAF has odds heavily stacked against it due to absence of some functionalities. A stronger Air Force prevents causalities on the ground, in the sea as well as civilians.
> 
> PAF still lacks a dedicated EW fighter (not just an aircraft), enough numbers of fighters and transport aircraft to support Army and Navy simultaneously, a dedicated air to ground missile for JF-17, a 4.5 gen heavy aircraft for CAP or strike missions. In the longer run, a 5th gen aircraft to get air superiority over enemy, a 4th gen aircraft that could carry ALCM, a sanction free aircraft above F-16 category, Indian S-400, long range AAM's missing in PAF arsenal to give enemy AWACs a scare etc
> 
> 
> The only worthwhile plus that FC-20 offers is a "sanction free" plane. J-31 offers more.



Wrong, FC-20 offers a lot more then what PAF currently has plus J-31 is years away for us to have think logical !!

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## Signalian

TOPGUN said:


> Wrong, FC-20 offers a lot more then what PAF currently has plus J-31 is years away for us to have think logical !!


You are entitled to your opinion, however i stand with mine.


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## Basel

Ali_Baba said:


> I can quite easily see PAF making more than 150 Block III JF17s. You only have to look at how many Mushtaq's were made to see there will be a long production run of the JF17 that may see it go past 300-350 units in PAF service once you factor in the Project Azm...
> 
> Project Azm, will mostly likely fail if PAF is trying to do a clean sheet greenfield design. Pakistan has no experience of even designing a basic propellor based plane like the Mushtaq, so going to a 5th Gen design for the first home grown plane is odd, and will be doomed to failure.



Its Mushshak not Mushtaq.


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## TOPGUN

Signalian said:


> You are entitled to your opinion, however i stand with mine.



Keep standing with it without any valid logic.


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## CHACHA"G"

J-31 at least 5 years away from production line and after that extra 10+ years for more development (look at JF-17 , F-35 etc) or what you call it maturity !!!!!!
J-10 passed his production line phase and now almost touching Maturity ………. We cannot replace all the birds with JF-17 ,,,,,, 2 options are here to replace Mirages ,

Go for single engine Delta Wing bird in this case J-10 only option(J-10 is completely different class then JF-17)
Replace them with heavy 4.5 Gen bird , in this case Su-35 , J-16 or EFTs are the options
If we look at both options Number 1 will cost us less , and doable in less time. Mirages passed their age , now we have to let them go . Remember China using 100s of J-10 that means they will spent many billion $$$ required for future upgrades …… This will Help PAF a lot.... Why ? Juts look at JF-17 block III we are still not able to chose AESA radar for this block... 
To replace F-16 we have good 15 years in hand , for this purpose we have to join hand with Turkey and Work on Single engine TFX (next Gen , 5th Gen) programme...…. We can call it AZM 2
And for Heavy 5th Gen , Current AZM (May be J-31) project will do ……………
Rest time will tell ….

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If we were smart the F16 Fleet would be given reduced hours and new birds like JF17 and J10C should be used fro day to day workload

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## Fawadqasim1

we surely need j10c. Period


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## Signalian

TOPGUN said:


> Keep standing with it without any valid logic.


Im going with PAF's logic, which i'm sure is Valid.

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## TOPGUN

Signalian said:


> Im going with PAF's logic, which i'm sure is Valid.



That's where you are wrong again and again … you will feel very foolish when PAF has FC-20 flying in its colors. Learn, listen and understand before going back and forth for something that doesn't make any sense nor has any LOGIC.


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## BRAVO_

what extra advantages J-10 C will give to Pakistan???


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## Signalian

TOPGUN said:


> That's where you are wrong again and again … you will feel very foolish when PAF has FC-20 flying in its colors. Learn, listen and understand before going back and forth for something that doesn't make any sense nor has any LOGIC.


Being foolish is no sin, every stage gives a learning chance, so keep your childish comments to yourself. Now "IF" (and a big very IF) PAF inducts FC-20, then your logic will be considered, till then i stand by PAF's and mine.

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## TOPGUN

Signalian said:


> Being foolish is no sin, every stage gives a learning chance, so keep your childish comments to yourself. Now "IF" (and a big very IF) PAF inducts FC-20, then your logic will be considered, till then i stand by PAF's and mine.



Childesh you are and I mean really out there stop going and back forth with me you make no sense nor have the knowledge nor the no about of PAF I don't need to you consider jack you are no one but a silly person behind the screen. That's why more then half the people agree with what I stated other then people like you which have no clue keep your dumb comments to your self and keep living in your little boy fantasy world because that's as far as you are going with that dumb mindset of yours.


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## AsifIjaz

Calm down boss. Like most i guess, i too agree with u cent percent but he is entitled to his ideas, opinion and putting them out in open for discussion and critical analysis by us all. He is resilient and adamant thus he must believe to be on the rt conclusion. No need to pass statements or derogatory remarks boss.


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## MastanKhan

Signalian said:


> The only worthwhile plus that FC-20 offers is a "sanction free" plane. J-31 offers more.



Hi,

These two are extremely different aircraft---different function and utility---.

The FC20 is to fill in the deficiency in the current ranks---.

The J31 is about 10 years away from being fully integrated---.

But for the J31---it needs a complimentary heavy strike aircraft to carry the load---and that would be an aircraft of the type of JH7A.

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## khanasifm

Based on last article in AFM paf is still overhauling mirages as they will be around till at least 2025-2028

Block 3 will replace the mirages or majority of them and 2–3 sqn by another type if economy is better after 2020/22 and/or pac/paf is successful in selling jf in big numbers in next 5-7 years


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## CriticalThought

I believe any discussion of interim fighter is moot at this point. Max resources seem to be going towards Navy. If one wants to 'follow' the logic of professionals in the armed forces, then the writing is on the wall. The naval threat exceeds even what IAF presents to land forces.

The only thing I find strange is the lack of (public) attention to the naval arm of PAF. It is my hope and prayer that once other naval assets are sorted out, the threat presented by Indian naval fighters will be considered. And my favorite for this role is Su-35. May Allah Help us and Guide us towards the right path. Aameen.

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## Readerdefence

Hi all the learned members keep in mind about lolly thing as Americans are pulling out from Afghanistan and Pakistan looks like in loop between taliban and Afghanistan so see might not be believing and we will be getting rest of the f16 block52 which been held back
Though I’m in in favour of this but due to the habitual nature of GOP it might
Rest assured whatever our wish list is paf will act according to their desire or the Chinese govt
Willing to give these jets against deferred payments
Thank you

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## araz

TOPGUN said:


> Childesh you are and I mean really out there stop going and back forth with me you make no sense nor have the knowledge nor the no about of PAF I don't need to you consider jack you are no one but a silly person behind the screen. That's why more then half the people agree with what I stated other then people like you which have no clue keep your dumb comments to your self and keep living in your little boy fantasy world because that's as far as you are going with that dumb mindset of yours.



I dont think it is childish. You make assumptions based on information available in public domain and looking at the finances of the country which are dire.
The next buying spree in my assessment would be 2020,-21 for induction in 2023-24. If stealth ACs become available would you still buy J10s? So the real question is when will they become available?. J20 is entering limited production and j31is progressing albeit slowly. In my view because the Chinese hand down technologies from one to other platform the devellpment times MAY BE reduced. So even if we are looking at 2023-25 bracket would it be better to get a stealth platform or a 4th, 4.5th generation platform. This in my view is the crux of the matter.
The other thing to remember is what is the Chinese demand for the stealth platform going to be? If they cannot produce enough till 2028-30 to supply then what do we do in the interim.
There is also the Azm project which in my view will not bear fruit till 2035. So we will need an interim solution again what generation remains to be seen.
The last piece of the conundrum is whether we get single engined fighter or a twin engined fighter especially for Naval ops but also for longer time on station.
Till we know what is available and practical we cannot see how PAF will progress. This is the reason for differing opinions.
A

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## Imran Khan

J-10 will never come next will be j-31 order in 20-22 we are not that rich to buy jets for 10 years guys


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## araz

CriticalThought said:


> I believe any discussion of interim fighter is moot at this point. Max resources seem to be going towards Navy. If one wants to 'follow' the logic of professionals in the armed forces, then the writing is on the wall. The naval threat exceeds even what IAF presents to land forces.
> 
> The only thing I find strange is the lack of (public) attention to the naval arm of PAF. It is my hope and prayer that once other naval assets are sorted out, the threat presented by Indian naval fighters will be considered. And my favorite for this role is Su-35. May Allah Help us and Guide us towards the right path. Aameen.


I think we have discussed this earlier. The problem with the SU35 is integration of a whole new set of armaments and spares whi h will be cost prohibitive. Now the support for J10C/ J11/16 is the fact that there is commonality in weapons and engines which makes life a lot easier for maintenance. This would not be the case for the SU which I absolutely and positively love. Now if we had a chinese AESA and fire control Radar in the SU , i do not think there would be much hesitation on the part of PAF to buy it. But otherwise there maybe better options available. The priority in my view is on HOBS, and HMCSs for our current platforms which will make them even more lethal.
A

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## CriticalThought

araz said:


> I think we have discussed this earlier. The problem with the SU35 is integration of a whole new set of armaments and spares whi h will be cost prohibitive. Now the support for J10C/ J11/16 is the fact that there is commonality in weapons and engines which makes life a lot easier for maintenance. This would not be the case for the SU which I absolutely and positively love. Now if we had a chinese AESA and fire control Radar in the SU , i do not think there would be much hesitation on the part of PAF to buy it. But otherwise there maybe better options available. The priority in my view is on HOBS, and HMCSs for our current platforms which will make them even more lethal.
> A



The SU-35 represents a shift in the very fighting doctrine. Just as PAF got acquainted with fast and furious via F-16 in the 80s, they need to re-acquaint themselves with this modern high performance beast. So yes, even disregarding the infrastructure and weapons, this is a massive investment. And I argue that it is an investment we need. To the extent that even if we can buy just 6 as a first batch, we should go for it.

Integrating custom weapons is a matter of negotiations. I don't think the Russians will have any good reason to stop integration as long as their exports are not hurt. This means it is a matter of correct leverage. But even if we are allowed custom integration, I argue that PAF needs to onboard and understand Russian weapons - their flight profile, detection characteristics, lethality etc.

Finally, I argue that there is no good alternative to this. It is an investment that must be made for national security reasons. We need the Flanker platform to be a solid element of our forces for the next 50 years. Ideally, for the next 20 years, we maintain the F-16s through MLUs, acquire 200+ JF-17s, and three squadrons - around 50 in total - of flankers. In parallel, we need to pursue Azm. This is the bare minimum needed for national defence.

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## araz

CriticalThought said:


> The SU-35 represents a shift in the very fighting doctrine. Just as PAF got acquainted with fast and furious via F-16 in the 80s, they need to re-acquaint themselves with this modern high performance beast. So yes, even disregarding the infrastructure and weapons, this is a massive investment. And I argue that it is an investment we need. To the extent that even if we can buy just 6 as a first batch, we should go for it.
> 
> Integrating custom weapons is a matter of negotiations. I don't think the Russians will have any good reason to stop integration as long as their exports are not hurt. This means it is a matter of correct leverage. But even if we are allowed custom integration, I argue that PAF needs to onboard and understand Russian weapons - their flight profile, detection characteristics, lethality etc.
> 
> Finally, I argue that there is no good alternative to this. It is an investment that must be made for national security reasons. We need the Flanker platform to be a solid element of our forces for the next 50 years. Ideally, for the next 20 years, we maintain the F-16s through MLUs, acquire 200+ JF-17s, and three squadrons - around 50 in total - of flankers. In parallel, we need to pursue Azm. This is the bare minimum needed for national defence.


A few points. The russians will not agree to foreign weapons integration. If they do they will extract their pound of flesh as the main business comes from expendables like spares and weapons. If it works it might be better to get the Chinese AESA and FC Radar as this may e a better bet and would still allow us to integrate a weapon of our choice. However will the red bear agree? I think not.

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## LKJ86

araz said:


> A few points. The russians will not agree to foreign weapons integration. If they do they will extract their pound of flesh as the main business comes from expendables like spares and weapons. If it works it might be better to get the Chinese AESA and FC Radar as this may e a better bet and would still allow us to integrate a weapon of our choice. However will the red bear agree? I think not.


Impossible. It is the same to Su-35SK that PLAAF buys.


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## punit

SU.35... Again !!


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## araz

punit said:


> SU.35... Again !!


Yes but the unlikeliness of it rather than the likelihood of acquiring them.
A

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## punit

araz said:


> Yes but the unlikeliness of it rather than the likelihood of acquiring them.
> A


Jokes aside...Pakistan should get J10 c/d without hesitation.


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## Imran Khan

punit said:


> Jokes aside...Pakistan should get J10 c/d without hesitation.


j-31 only nothing less


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## punit

Imran Khan said:


> j-31 only nothing less


Scotch na mile to vodka/ rum pi lena chahiye !!


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## Sine Nomine

punit said:


> Scotch na mile to vodka/ rum pi lena chahiye !!


Aur agar kuch be na miley tou desi tarah.

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## Maxpane



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## Amigator

Imran Khan said:


> j-31 only nothing less


It is highly likely that PAF wouldn't buy any Interim Fighter plane instead:

-- will upgrade JF17 block I,II (AESA radar, upgraded avionics package)
-- will induct JF17 block III in high number
-- will procure J-31 when possible and got mature
-- will enhance MALE UAVs fleet and possible JF17 style production series

period

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## Shabi1

Amigator said:


> It is highly likely that PAF wouldn't buy any Interim Fighter plane instead:
> 
> -- will upgrade JF17 block I,II (AESA radar, upgraded avionics package)
> -- will induct JF17 block III in high number
> -- will procure J-31 when possible and got mature
> -- will enhance MALE UAVs fleet and possible JF17 style production series
> 
> period



spot on. Block-3 being further delayed does indicate they are now making more radical changes.

Azerbaijan is negotiating for AESA Block-2s rumored to be designated Block-2 Plus.

Looks like a attractive upgrade for PAF variants as well. Someone mentioned PAF will induct 12 more Block-2s besides the 12 JF-17Bs, while Block-3 still in development. Lets wait and see.

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## Dazzler

Shabi1 said:


> spot on. Block-3 being further delayed does indicate they are now making more radical changes.
> 
> Azerbaijan is negotiating for AESA Block-2s rumored to be designated Block-2 Plus.
> 
> Looks like a attractive upgrade for PAF variants as well. Someone mentioned PAF will induct 12 more Block-2s besides the 12 JF-17Bs, while Block-3 still in development. Lets wait and see.



Expect no radical design changes, rather capability updates.

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## Shabi1

Dazzler said:


> Expect no radical design changes, rather capability updates.


Right design will be more or less same but internally a lot of differences. Expect in a way similar to Gripen C & Gripen NG.


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## Dazzler

Shabi1 said:


> Right design will be more or less same but internally a lot of differences. Expect in a way similar to Gripen C & Gripen NG.



Off-topic, but,

Block 2C is pretty much on par with Grpen C/D in overall capability. Blk3 should be at least be as capable as NG with capable AESA, integrated EW suite, new cockpit layout among other goodies.

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## Sulman Badshah

Pic By a Friend

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## ziaulislam

Dazzler said:


> Expect no radical design changes, rather capability updates.


Question is simple ..whether it will be f16a to c movement or gripen to gripen NG or just internal update


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## syed_yusuf

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pic By a Friend
> View attachment 528958



i always wonder why PAF never update Labenese mirage 3 to rose 1. they were on par with Australian mirage 3 and have a lots of life left.does anybody know why it was never done. or was it just the cost?


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## Amigator

syed_yusuf said:


> i always wonder why PAF never update Labenese mirage 3 to rose 1. they were on par with Australian mirage 3 and have a lots of life left.does anybody know why it was never done. or was it just the cost?


Maybe they are already scrapped for parts at PAC


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## CriticalThought

Dazzler said:


> Off-topic, but,
> 
> Block 2C is pretty much on par with Grpen C/D in overall capability. Blk3 should be at least be as capable as NG with capable AESA, integrated EW suite, new cockpit layout among other goodies.



What does 'C' signify in Block 2C?


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## Dazzler

CriticalThought said:


> What does 'C' signify in Block 2C?



Inflight refuelling capability.

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## CriticalThought

Dazzler said:


> Inflight refuelling capability.



'C' implies there was a Block 'B' as well? If so, what upgrade was that?


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## Dazzler

CriticalThought said:


> 'C' implies there was a Block 'B' as well? If so, what upgrade was that?



True, export config with different subsystems to the ones used by the PAF.

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## CriticalThought

Dazzler said:


> True, export config with different subsystems to the ones used by the PAF.



Can you please share details?


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## Dazzler

CriticalThought said:


> Can you please share details?



Would you like to see the blue prints as well?


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## CriticalThought

Dazzler said:


> Would you like to see the blue prints as well?



Main nay mana kuch nahi Ghalib
Magar muft haath aaye tu bura kiya hai


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## syed_yusuf

Amigator said:


> Maybe they are already scrapped for parts at PAC


No that is not correct


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## Maxpane



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## Aamir Hussain

Generally "Block" terminology is only used by the US. The Brits use Mark, and the rest put in suffix after the model number.

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## Maxpane



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## salman-1

Maxpane said:


> View attachment 529551


This is a picture of 80's calender. I remember it. It was a great fascination for all the young boys to join Paf.

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## GriffinsRule

Also from the Defenders of Pakistan book


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## denel

from the book given to me by Rab Nawaz and the book written by old dear friend amin - may his soul rest in peace - great hearted person to walk this planet.

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## denel

denel said:


> View attachment 529980
> 
> 
> from the book given to me by Rab Nawaz and the book written by old dear friend amin - may his soul rest in peace - great hearted person to walk this planet.
> 
> View attachment 529981


If my memory serves me right that ship is Babur.


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## Aamir Hussain

This is the Ex. County Class Guided Missile Destroyer HMS London, then inducted as training ship PNS Babur for a short time.

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## Maxpane



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## MIRauf

Yes, that is my Fav. PNS-Babur, Ex County Class. PN had to let it go to rust bucket due to high cost of operations. That beast was designed to take a beating, not like today's Tin Foils. I boarded it once, got a grand tour ( high School Class ) and fell in love with it, too bad my eye sight didn't agree with my desire to join the Armed Forces.

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## denel

MIRauf said:


> Yes, that is my Fav. PNS-Babur, Ex County Class. PN had to let it go to rust bucket due to high cost of operations. That beast was designed to take a beating, not like today's Tin Foils. I boarded it once, got a grand tour ( high School Class ) and fell in love with it, too bad my eye sight didn't agree with my desire to join the Armed Forces.


Indeed, a beauty. I did not get a chance to board it when it visited Dar in a group. Instead was taken aboard Tariq


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## denel

Not sure if Rab Nawaz is still alive; i know his son died in the fokker aircrash i tried to locate if anyone has his contacts do pass on.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=236301606419427





Just found the above!. Great great man. Made me feel welcome.


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## Maxpane



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## Sine Nomine

Maxpane said:


> View attachment 530916


What if we start building an improved version of this with RD-93 engine and DSI Intakes?

Using same airframe deisgn with DSI intakes and components from these airfarmes.
@Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777


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## Raider 21

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> What if we start building an improved version of this with RD-93 engine and DSI Intakes?
> 
> Using same airframe deisgn with DSI intakes and components from these airfarmes.
> @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777


I'm no Mirage expert. But this airframe is of an old design. Need something new. No harm in having similar components on a newer design. 

Cheers !!!

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## Sine Nomine

Knuckles said:


> I'm no Mirage expert. But this airframe is of an old design. Need something new. No harm in having similar components on a newer design.
> 
> Cheers !!!


Like using Cheetah C type airframe,constructed with same material which is being used in JFT airframe.
I am sure current airframe would be not flight worthy soon,but ROSE components on which we did spent fair amount of cash would be ok.

With DSI intakes and modern airframe we would a fighter which is better then M3&5 and it would have enough room for future upgrades.

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## araz

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Like using Cheetah C type airframe,constructed with same material which is being used in JFT airframe.
> I am sure current airframe would be not flight worthy soon,but ROSE components on which we did spent fair amount of cash would be ok.
> 
> With DSI intakes and modern airframe we would a fighter which is better then M3&5 and it would have enough room for future upgrades.





MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Like using Cheetah C type airframe,constructed with same material which is being used in JFT airframe.
> I am sure current airframe would be not flight worthy soon,but ROSE components on which we did spent fair amount of cash would be ok.
> 
> With DSI intakes and modern airframe we would a fighter which is better then M3&5 and it would have enough room for future upgrades.


In short you want the J10C. I think PAF is enamoured but torn between one or two engines.
A

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## Bilal Khan 777

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> What if we start building an improved version of this with RD-93 engine and DSI Intakes?
> 
> Using same airframe deisgn with DSI intakes and components from these airfarmes.
> @Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777



This was the original project of South Africans, to re-engine Mirage with RD. However, these aircraft have outlived their airframe lives and we have bought every possible mirage anywhere in any form. They have to go now.

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This was the original project of South Africans, to re-engine Mirage with RD.


I know sir SMR 95 was that engine and airframes are very old and have crossed their life cycle mark.



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> However, these aircraft have outlived their airframe lives and we have bought every possible mirage anywhere in any form. They have to go now.


Nodoubt about it,but what about internal components?
Is it feasible to build new improved Airframe on lines of Cheeth C Airframe with DSI intakes from same material which is being used in JFT construction and using RD93 as power plant.Then cannibalize Mirage ROSE for parts to built internals of new airframe.
My opinion is cost would be around 5 to 6 million.

P.S:In current sitution,i have zero optimism regarding any new acquisition other then used F-16 which too are possible if mood of uncle sam is good or may be geting funded a J-10C deal from China.
Salute to those brave souls who are flying Mirages



araz said:


> In short you want the J10C. I think PAF is enamoured but torn between one or two engines.
> A


J-10c won't be less then 60 million dollar a pop.With training and development for new infrastructure for complete new engine and avionics package that would be around 100 million USD(may be more).A price we can't pay.


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## araz

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> I know sir SMR 95 was that engine and airframes are very old and have crossed their life cycle mark.
> 
> 
> Nodoubt about it,but what about internal components?
> Is it feasible to build new improved Airframe on lines of Cheeth C Airframe with DSI intakes from same material which is being used in JFT construction and using RD93 as power plant.Then cannibalize Mirage ROSE for parts to built internals of new airframe.
> My opinion is cost would be around 5 to 6 million.
> 
> P.S:In current sitution,i have zero optimism regarding any new acquisition other then used F-16 which too are possible if mood of uncle sam is good or may be geting funded a J-10C deal from China.
> Salute to those brave souls who are flying Mirages
> 
> 
> J-10c won't be less then 60 million dollar a pop.With training and development for new infrastructure for complete new engine and avionics package that would be around 100 million USD(may be more).A price we can't pay.


What you are suggesting wont be much cheaper. The whole air frame will have to be re manufactured, a new engine tested and incorporated. Then testing, tweeking and retesting. It is time and cost prohibitive. PAF may have to buy the licence to rebuild the whole frame from the French. So from many aspects it will be very expensive.
A

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## Sine Nomine

araz said:


> What you are suggesting wont be much cheaper. The whole air frame will have to be re manufactured, a new engine tested and incorporated. Then testing, tweeking and retesting. It is time and cost prohibitive.


I agree but that would still be much less then developing a new one or getting a new one.
New Airframe would weight less then older one may be more then a Ton.
Engine would be 50 inches shorter in length but same in dia and 400 kg approx lighter.
DSI intakes instead of existing one would alter flight characteristics.
This would take testing, tweeking and retesting but won't consume much time.


araz said:


> PAF may have to buy the licence to rebuild the whole frame from the French. So from many aspects it will be very expensive.


Sir,i don't think so french would drag us on a plane having that description.

_Details description would look like._
Fitting of non-moving canards just aft of the engine intakes,DSI intakes, two new stores pylons at the wing roots, an aerial refuelling probe, new ejection seats, a more powerful engine (RD 93), a new main wing spar along with a new "drooping" leading edge and a dog-tooth incision on each wing, modern elevons and strakes on the nose to improve the high (AoA) performance.
_(Copied from cheetah and changed)_​

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## denel

araz said:


> What you are suggesting wont be much cheaper. The whole air frame will have to be re manufactured, a new engine tested and incorporated. Then testing, tweeking and retesting. It is time and cost prohibitive. PAF may have to buy the licence to rebuild the whole frame from the French. So from many aspects it will be very expensive.
> A


I concur with Araz, that time is long past. Correction, at Atlas entire frame remanufacturing line was present together with all newer additions for composite material replacement used in Cheetah C/D. instead of going the Rose route, that was a very strong advantage which was not pursued. Alternative in parallel entire F1/RD33 upgrade path could too have been pursued.

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## Sine Nomine

P.S:Excuse my naivety, but a poor man always thinks about recycling


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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> P.S:Excuse my naivety, but a poor man always thinks about recycling


.... evolution through recycling and reuse. In other words kaizen principles. nothing wrong with it.

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> I concur with Araz, that time is long past. Correction, at Atlas entire frame remanufacturing line was present together with all newer additions for composite material replacement used in Cheetah C/D. instead of going the Rose route, that was a very strong advantage which was not pursued. Alternative in parallel entire F1/RD33 upgrade path could too have been pursued.


We did wrong by not going on that way but we have invested lot of amount inside those Mirages.That's like having, installed a new world class electric wiring and appliances+sanitary equipment in a house that's structure is going to fall apart.Now problem is that new world class equipment,what we should do with it?


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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> We did wrong by not going on that way but we have invested lot of amount inside those Mirages.That's like having, installed a new world class electric wiring and appliances+sanitary equipment in a house that's structure is going to fall apart.Now problem is that new world class equipment,what we should do with it?


That has been my personal grip with your people; i mean we had Atlas engineers there and the opportunities were made available but never followed. Can you imagine, the entire mixed bag of M3/M5 variants could have all been converted over to a new fleet of Cheetahs with 9K50s or even RD33.

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> That has been my personal grip with your people; i mean we had Atlas engineers there and the opportunities were made available but never followed. Can you imagine, the entire mixed bag of M3/M5 variants could have all been converted over to a new fleet of Cheetahs with 9K50s or even RD33.


Even during so much hard time,we still can't departure from Perfection,if no sanctions would have happened,there would have no JFT because that wasn't upto mark sitting in our minds.
If we would have on atlas way,that would have been a beast now.


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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Even during so much hard time,we still can't departure from Perfection,if no sanctions would have happened,there would have no JFT because that wasn't upto mark sitting in our minds.
> If we would have on atlas way,that would have been a beast now.


Yes, we went those routes back in 70s when entire procurements were cut. Sanctions are good!.

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## khanasifm

denel said:


> Yes, we went those routes back in 70s when entire procurements were cut. Sanctions are good!.



Sanctions were basically accelerator for jf program even in 80s paf knew they needed an aircraft which would be ~Same performance but at substantial lower cost to f-16s to replace older fleet as paf could not afford all out f-16 fleet 

Finally non availability and affordability of western aircraft put emphasis on jf program

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## MystryMan

denel said:


> That has been my personal grip with your people; i mean we had Atlas engineers there and the opportunities were made available but never followed. Can you imagine, the entire mixed bag of M3/M5 variants could have all been converted over to a new fleet of Cheetahs with 9K50s or even RD33.


In my opinion J-10C with CFTs would be better option to replace ROSE Mirages.

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## denel

MystryMan said:


> In my opinion J-10C with CFTs would be better option to replace ROSE Mirages.


yes. this is remininsing about the past


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## MIRauf

JF-17 came about because of Tiananman Square Stand off, not due to sanctions. If US Gov't hadn't blocked Grumman from assisting with Saber-II, there probably be no JF-17.

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## denel

MIRauf said:


> JF-17 came about because of Tiananman Square Stand off, not due to sanctions. If US Gov't hadn't blocked Grumman from assisting with Saber-II, there probably be no JF-17.


Indeed .


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## Nasr

I thought sanctions were imposed on China due to Tianemen Square incident. This prohibited any and all American military sales to China. As I recall, after the Sino-American reproachment during Nixon's time. There were some American military hardware already sold to China, i.e UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters. So it ought to have been sanctions, which prohibited American military hardware manufacturers from dealing with China. Not confining just Grumman Corporation from collaborating with China and Pakistan on the Super-7 project.


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## MIRauf

Ghazwa1, you are right, it got all lump summed into one Tianaman Square episode. Imagine if that hadn't happened, it would be Sabre-II being discussed here instead of JF-17. Folks be jumping up and down cause it has 5 hardpoints and not 7/9. Nosecone too small for medium size Radar, range barely better then what F-7 has to offer.

At the end all PAF wanted was to have something in large numbers that would complement and work alongside F-16s.

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## Nasr

MIRauf said:


> Ghazwa1, you are right, it got all lump summed into one Tianaman Square episode. Imagine if that hadn't happened, it would be Sabre-II being discussed here instead of JF-17. Folks be jumping up and down cause it has 5 hardpoints and not 7/9. Nosecone too small for medium size Radar, range barely better then what F-7 has to offer.
> 
> At the end all PAF wanted was to have something in large numbers that would complement and work alongside F-16s.



Yes you're correct that this is what Pakistan Air Force wanted at the time. It has been mentioned numerous times, various Pakistan Air Force books, that had it not been for the pivotal decision made by the then Pakistan Air Force - ACM Mushaf Ali Mir to "de-couple" the avionics from the air frame in the development phase. That the Thunder Program would have stalled. The mindset at the time, was the urgency for Pakistan to have its own fighter jet which is impervious to _Western Sanctions_, is what Pakistan Air Force benefitted from.

Today, things are different, due to the decisions made back then. If anyone looks at the indian Air Force, they are on course (250 already built) to fielding 270 Su-30MKi Flankers. To top that, the indians are now working on full MRO set up for the Flankers. They have also managed to integrate a very lethal weapon on the Flankers, which is the Supersonic BrahMos missile system. At present, I do not believe Pakistan Air Force has anything remotely resembling that capability, nor the means to defend against it. BrahMos goes at Mach-5, and to make matters worse, this missile has the ability to evade air defense radars by flying around them and/or dodge incoming air defense missiles. It doesn't end there either, at present the BrahMos missile is not only fielded by the indian Air Force, but also the Army and Navy. But the worst of all news is yet to come, they are now working with the Russians to develop BrahMos-ll which will be a "Hypersonic Missile" capable of dodging incoming SAMs.

The time has come for Pakistan Military (all services) to up their game. Not just in terms of countering the enemy's capabilities, but also to surpass them. Tilt the advantage in our favor by developing hypersonic missiles and HGVs ourselves or in collaboration with China and/or Russia. We need to have the same mindset now, as we did when Pakistan Air Force needed Thunders. But not just Pakistan Air Force now, the Navy, Army and Strategic division need to get their acts together and work on Hypersonic capability, FAST!!!!

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## syed_yusuf

The mindset at the time, was the urgency for Pakistan to have its own fighter jet which is impervious to _Western Sanctions_, is what Pakistan Air Force benefitted from. so far PAF have added 100+ JFT locally produced with local maintenance and upgrade. 

Today, things are different, due to the decisions made back then. If anyone looks at the PakistanAir Force, they are on course (112 already built) to fielding 200 JFT. To top that, the Pakistan is now working on full MRO set up for the JFT. They have also managed to integrate a very lethal weapon on the JFT, which is the CM400AKG and RaaD II. missile system. At present, I do not believe Indian Air Force has anything remotely resembling that capability, nor the means to defend against it. CM400 AKG goes at Mach-5, RAAD 2 a subsonic but lethal missile, and to make matters worse, this missile has the ability to evade air defense radars by flying around them and/or dodge incoming air defense missiles. It doesn't end there either, at present the Babur missile is not only fielded by the Pakistan Army but by Navy also in terms of Harba. But the worst of all news is yet to come, they are now working with the Chinese to develop CM302++ which will be a "Hypersonic Missile" capable of dodging incoming SAMs.

The time has come for Indian Military (all services) to up their game. Not just in terms of countering the enemy's capabilities, but also to surpass them. Indian Air Force , the Navy, Army and Bharathi Strategic division need to get their acts together and work on Hypersonic capability, FAST!!!!

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## CriticalThought

syed_yusuf said:


> The mindset at the time, was the urgency for Pakistan to have its own fighter jet which is impervious to _Western Sanctions_, is what Pakistan Air Force benefitted from. so far PAF have added 100+ JFT locally produced with local maintenance and upgrade.
> 
> Today, things are different, due to the decisions made back then. If anyone looks at the PakistanAir Force, they are on course (112 already built) to fielding 200 JFT. To top that, the Pakistan is now working on full MRO set up for the JFT. They have also managed to integrate a very lethal weapon on the JFT, which is the CM400AKG and RaaD II. missile system. At present, I do not believe Indian Air Force has anything remotely resembling that capability, nor the means to defend against it. CM400 AKG goes at Mach-5, RAAD 2 a subsonic but lethal missile, and to make matters worse, this missile has the ability to evade air defense radars by flying around them and/or dodge incoming air defense missiles. It doesn't end there either, at present the Babur missile is not only fielded by the Pakistan Army but by Navy also in terms of Harba. But the worst of all news is yet to come, they are now working with the Chinese to develop CM302++ which will be a "Hypersonic Missile" capable of dodging incoming SAMs.
> 
> The time has come for Indian Military (all services) to up their game. Not just in terms of countering the enemy's capabilities, but also to surpass them. Indian Air Force , the Navy, Army and Bharathi Strategic division need to get their acts together and work on Hypersonic capability, FAST!!!!



Very well written, but we are at a disadvantage that we need to recognize and remove. We have fewer high value targets and taking them out can set us back by decades. Our air defence relies on a mix of Western and Chinese tech. For safeguard of homeland, consider Western tech as compromised. In any future conflict, America and Israel will be fully backing India. So air defence is at the mercy of compromise from manufactures, hacking by India, and saturation from Brahmos. The fact that our Central Air Defence command runs on Windows XP inspires zero trust.

If forward air defence and air bases are lost in a saturation attack, then backbones of our military tech such as PAC, HIT, POF become exposed. Once India takes them out, we will be set back by decades.

For us, an impregnable air defence is an existential necessity. India can absorb the CM-400 in its size, we can't.

And while we are on the topic, giving India the freedom to progress economically with relative internal peace is a failure of epic proportions. A counter regime of internal instability SHOULD have been imposed, and failure to do so is an open question to our generals.

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## Maxpane



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## araz

MIRauf said:


> Ghazwa1, you are right, it got all lump summed into one Tianaman Square episode. Imagine if that hadn't happened, it would be Sabre-II being discussed here instead of JF-17. Folks be jumping up and down cause it has 5 hardpoints and not 7/9. Nosecone too small for medium size Radar, range barely better then what F-7 has to offer.
> 
> At the end all PAF wanted was to have something in large numbers that would complement and work alongside F-16s.


I thought PAF walked out of the project much before fruition. So I am failing to see the relevance of this discussion to PAFs quest for the JFT. Please correct me if my assumptions are wrong.
A

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## MIRauf

Don't think PAF Walked out of the project on its own at least not acknowledged as such by small circle of friends in PAF back then. Also nothing that I came across during those days in Flight / AFM and few other magazines at that time, they all indicated the set back on PAF due to Grumman being told to pull out of the project.

Point was that someone stated that Sanctions on Pak / PAF helped JF-17 come about, while actually it was Sanctions placed on China in response to Tianamen Square.

PS: I should have stated Sanctions on China, not Sanctions on Pak in my original statement. Any way, sorry for diverging from Original subject of Mirage III/V.

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## araz

MIRauf said:


> Don't think PAF Walked out of the project on its own at least not acknowledged as such by small circle of friends in PAF back then. Also nothing that I came across during those days in Flight / AFM and few other magazines at that time, they all indicated the set back on PAF due to Grumman being told to pull out of the project.
> 
> Point was that someone stated that Sanctions on Pak / PAF helped JF-17 come about, while actually it was Sanctions placed on China in response to Tianamen Square.
> 
> PS: I should have stated Sanctions on China, not Sanctions on Pak in my original statement. Any way, sorry for diverging from Original subject of Mirage III/V.


Thank you for your reply. There was a article which was published and quoted on the forum regarding the Sabre2 project. It stated to my surprise that PAF had deemed the project nonviable on grounds of escalating costs and cost vs benefit. The Chinese continued on with the work till Tianmen square happened and Grummen walked out. I remember this as I had always been intrigued by why PAF had not thought of upgrading its F7s. One of my mates at Cranfield had mentioned that PAF was not impressed with the Sabre 2 project as it did not give them any significant advantage over the PGs. However this aspect has alaways remained a mystery along with PAFs lack of interest in the F1.
A

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## MIRauf

Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.

On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.

Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.

Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.

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## Maxpane



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## araz

MIRauf said:


> Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.
> 
> On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.
> 
> Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.
> 
> Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.


Thank you for your response.
Your friend is not the former AC who was ADC to Bhutto currently in US with a son in the PAF who was discharged ?


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## MIRauf

Hi Araz, Sorry no, he is / was a Civi, just well connected due to his Spouse. He came here for his M.Sc, during that time his Spouse got job offer from World Bank in the US and stayed here.

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## MastanKhan

MIRauf said:


> Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.
> 
> On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.
> 
> Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.
> 
> Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.



Hi,

Thanks for the information---. It is amazing when you throw something up in the wind---or into a twister and something amazing pops up---.

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## Nasr

MIRauf said:


> Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.
> 
> On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.
> 
> Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.
> 
> Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.



That is a very interesting bit of information from the past, you have shared with us. Thank you


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

When I was young---I was told a story by my grandmother about a guy who threw a shoe at the whirl wind---the Jinn in the whirl wind threw out a bag of money---damn I was impressed---.

Then on another occasion when I was still young---my uncle says---don't throw any thing in the whirl wind----. I asked why---he stated that the Jinn in the whirl wind throw it back at you if he is mad that day---and hit you hard. I asked how---.

He says---a guy threw a shoe at the whirl wind---because he had heard of the bag of money---the Jinn was mad that day---he threw the shoe back at the guy and hit him very hard in the head---.

I was too young to understand the PHYSICS of both the actions---but Rauf's post delivered me a bag of GOLD---.

@MIRauf ---thank you very much---. You are a happy and a kind Jinn---.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MIRauf said:


> Hi Araz, thank you for the feedback / insight, always great to hear others inside track. Magazines push / publish their own version for the sales, gone are days when their writing could have been taken as gospel as we use to read into it back 20/30 years ago. I had just heard tidbits from some of the PAF Farmer Jockeys about the Sabre-II projects and some of their expectations.
> 
> On F-1, what I was told by an Pak Gov't insider (ZAB's guy, during Shah's era ) who moved to US that Egypt threw the Monkey ranch in the F-1 project. They wanted to be the leader of Arab world and wanted the Production plant only in Egypt, while Pak wanted it in Pakistan ( PAC ) and had the backing of the Shah. Then around that time the once in a life time chance for the F-16s came about and rest as they say was history on the F-1s for PAF. Now the guy did admit that he was not with the Ministry of Defense but they did dine and wine with Gov't and Military higher up as his spouse was an Executive with the World Bank, which left little reason for any of us to doubt him.
> 
> Now about the Egyptians, this is one of the thing we saw first hand in Kuwait during the 70s and early to mid 80s that Egyptian as Arabic speaking thought of themselves above the rest of the non-Caucasian foreigners. We as kids were much better treated by Kuwaitis of Iraqi decedent then the Egyptian expats.
> 
> Any ways, sorry for the distracting from Mirage thread, but PAFs original choice of A-7s as bomb truck was much better in my opinion then the Mirage F1s, but that is an story for another thread.


There were a few Mirage F-1 episodes from what I was told.

1. The French offered the Mirage F-1 to existing Mirage III/5 users, among them South Africa, Pakistan and Egypt. It wasn't made clear to me if the PAF was considering a general purpose aircraft to replace the F-6, F-86 or both, but I guess this episode was that of the whole Egypt debacle. 

2. In the late 1970s/early 1980s, the US was reluctant to release the F-16 Block-5/10/15 and C/D outside of NATO (and key allies, such as Iran, Japan, South Korea, etc). So to Pakistan, Indonesia, etc, it only offered the F-20 and F-16 79. WikiLeaks claims that at this time, the PAF was speaking to the French about the F-1 and M2K, and the US was even willing to help with securing a line-of-credit. But when Reagan changed the export policy, I think the US must have pivoted that program to backing F-16 sales instead? 

3. When the Sabre II was floating about, an alternative proposal was to take-up the Mirage F-1's production line from Dassault. The French Gov't apparently offered the entire line plus a large stock of Atar turbojet engines, but the PAF supposedly wanted the platform with a turbofan engine instead. However, Dassault was unwilling to work on a M53-equipped F-1 (ironically, a turbofan might have been tenable only a few years later, but from Russia in the RD-33 or RD-93). 

4. Not exactly Mirage F-1, but the Thales radar, avionics and weapons suite the PAF wanted for the JF-17 was the same one for the Mirage F-1-F2000, i.e., RDY-3, MICA, etc.

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## Tank131

There are 2 events that are known surrounding the F-16s which, had PAF gone a different route, Pakistan would have been in a far better position industrially amd with respect to its aerospace sector. One was passing over production of Mirage F-1 because the French didnt want to put. The effort to integrate the M53. Ironically as @Bilal Khan (Quwa) points out, the South Africans later fitted it with Rd-33 (im not sure if the Russians would have done that for Pakistan back in the day but whatever).

The other was the selection of F-16 over F-20. While the F-16 was the superior fighter, the F-20 was bwing offered with full production setup and rights to the entire project which otherwise would become defunct. While not as stellar a fighter, it was still quite capable and infact had BVR capability and came with Aim-7 Sparrow. The PAF did not have BVR capability until 2005 when the first F-16 underwent MLU.

PAF thought tactically but there was no strategic thinking done (much tue same could be said for its many sectors and issues in Pakistan). Tactically F-16 was superior to both, but strategically, the Mirage F-1 and F-20 offered BVR (where the F-16 didnt for another 23 years) amd the ability to begin your own in house defense production of combat aircraft. Imagine what Israel has done with the venerable Mirage V, turning it into Kfir Block 60. Pakistan could have had that potential but is starting done the path 30years later than it should have.

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## Signalian

TOPGUN said:


> Childesh you are and I mean really out there stop going and back forth with me you make no sense nor have the knowledge nor the no about of PAF I don't need to you consider jack you are no one but a silly person behind the screen. That's why more then half the people agree with what I stated other then people like you which have no clue keep your dumb comments to your self and keep living in your little boy fantasy world because that's as far as you are going with that dumb mindset of yours.


Hurling personal insults towards me because you cannot prove your point  

As for proving points, I would like to see FC-20 in PAF colors for your point to be valid, which has not happened. if there is news in the media, you can share it here. Capability wise, FC-20 stands between F-16 and JF-17, where as JF-17 Block- III is closing fast. 

If you disagree, instead of using the insulting tactic (trolls do that) to make me back off, try putting in some aspects why PAF would choose FC-20, apart from the fact that its sanction-free unlike F-16.

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## Nasr

The F-16 "bar tenders" keep harping on about how Pakistan Air Force has nothing in its inventory which matches or surpasses it's capabilities. Well, that sounds much like a close ended argument. There is nothing out there, which affordable enough or technologically superior enough to replace the F-16s for Pakistan Air Force. That sort of mentality is exactly why everyone is ham-strung on the notion that the West cannot be surpassed in terms of technology. This sort of thinking exemplifies how closed minded some are that they fail to look beyond the horizon.

In the 9th Century, the Chinese civilization stood at the helm of technology. When the so-called "Western Civilization" was living as savages, the Chinese Civilization invented the Compass, Paper, Gunpowder and Printing. Fast forward 1100 years on, and China today is the leading country on several technological fronts. Leading the way in 5G technology, only the third country in the world to land on the moon, as well as the first country to land on the moon in this century. China leads the world in Pebble Reactor technology, it also leads the world in Solar Power technology. Whereas Russia is the first country on earth which is on the verge of deploying operational Hypersonic Glide Warheads. Russians have also mastered the miniaturization of nuclear reactors, that have the ability to power cruise missiles. No other country, America or otherwise, has managed to this as of yet. And no other seems anywhere close to achieving what Russia has achieved in terms of nuclear reactor miniaturization technology. 

I do hate to break it down for those who still hold on (dearly) to the idea that none can match the west in terms of technology. But that ship has been sunk, and it ain't coming back up again. Yes the West has the best fighters, the best engines and so on. But today there lead in technological advances in military fields, is negated, shortened and in some cases surpassed by other countries. Russians have successfully developed the Izedliye-30 engines for its Stealth Fighter and are now going to introduce coatings on its production model Su-57s this year. The Chinese will also be achieving the same with their WS-15 engines for their J-20s. That gives both countries a huge advantage to build hundreds of these fighters in a short period of time, if required. Russia would've and still can build more Su-57s, once it blunts out relentless US hindrances using sanctions, SWIFT international payment system and other financial tools to slow down Russia's rise as a super power.

Now if Pakistan hopes to be in a commanding position in the future, both militarily and economically. Then in needs to extract itself out of this ridiculous mentality that the West above the rest. China did it, Russia has done, heck even the enemy, India has done it in collaboration with the Russians. It is time for Pakistan to kick the can (America/Britain/France) off the road and make headway in joint ventures with countries that have also kicked the can (America/Britain/France) off the road. There are many opportunities that lay ahead for Pakistan, the only one which would get in the way of that, is Pakistanis themselves.

Pakistan Air Force has a bright future ahead of it, despite the adversities and challenges it has faced. The shining star in Pakistan Air Force's armor, is the JF-17 Thunders. I sure hope that PAF manages to forge many more partnerships with those who hold independence and self-reliance above all.

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## ghazi52

Our Legendary Aviators of Squadron No.9 - Pakistan Air Force ; Cecil Chaudhry , Aliuddin

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## mingle

@Zarvan is tweeting today that PAF is buying Egypt Mirage 5 Horus 30 copies?? What PAF gonna do with them even Eygpt is phaseing them out.


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## Shabi1

P


mingle said:


> @Zarvan is tweeting today that PAF is buying Egypt Mirage 5 Horus 30 copies?? What PAF gonna do with them even Eygpt is phaseing them out.


Possible source for spares after cannibalization.

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## Chimgathar

mingle said:


> @Zarvan is tweeting today that PAF is buying Egypt Mirage 5 Horus 30 copies?? What PAF gonna do with them even Eygpt is phaseing them out.


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## Sine Nomine

Shabi1 said:


> P
> 
> Possible source for spares after cannibalization.


They have 82 Mirage 5's in service.

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## syed_yusuf

Possibly for spares as paf still need to support 6 mirage squadrons of various roles fir some time

Pakistan is really extracting last of all the juice from these mirages

Mist of egyptian mirages are of mirage 5 varient

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## denel

syed_yusuf said:


> Possibly for spares as paf still need to support 6 mirage squadrons of various roles fir some time
> 
> Pakistan is really extracting last of all the juice from these mirages
> 
> Mist of egyptian mirages are of mirage 5 varient


jrrrr. this mirage saga will go on for another 15yrs - mark my words. you will have grand children by that time

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> jrrrr. this mirage saga will go on for another 15yrs - mark my words. you will have grand children by that time


Then what i said is better,new engine(Rd33) and airframe with DSI intakes using everything else in plane.

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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Then what i said is better,new engine(Rd33) and airframe with DSI intakes using everything else in plane.


?? clarify. they are not embarking on a super cheetah venture.

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> ?? clarify. they are not embarking on a super cheetah venture.


Using same FBW and electronics but new engine and airframe.

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## GriffinsRule

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Using same FBW and electronics but new engine and airframe.



Mirages are not FBW

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## Sine Nomine

GriffinsRule said:


> Mirages are not FBW


Atleast they would have some Basic system in place though FBW came in Mirage 3NG.


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## GriffinsRule

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Atleast they would have some Basic system in place though FBW came in Mirage 3NG.


So you want to design a new aircraft basically. New airframe, engines, FBW ... might as well replace outdated avionics from 15 years ago to latest ones going in Thunder for commonality

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## Sine Nomine

GriffinsRule said:


> So you want to design a new aircraft basically. New airframe, engines, FBW ... might as well replace outdated avionics from 15 years ago to latest ones going in Thunder for commonality


Why not go for JFT-XL like F-16 XL.Having around 80% part sharing with JFT.



GriffinsRule said:


> outdated avionics


If i am not wrong ROSE strike package is still better then or on par with JFT's.

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## syed_yusuf

syed_yusuf said:


> Possibly for spares as paf still need to support 6 mirage squadrons of various roles fir some time
> 
> Pakistan is really extracting last of all the juice from these mirages
> 
> Mist of egyptian mirages are of mirage 5 varient




To clarify the EAF mirages are called mirage 5 but most of them are mirage 3e varient. This varient is used by PAF 

I think paf should extract maximum value from these mirages in rose 1,2 and 3 format till 5 th gen fighter is inducted and then whynot

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> To clarify the EAF mirages are called mirage 5 but most of them are mirage 3e varient. This varient is used by PAF
> 
> I think paf should extract maximum value from these mirages in rose 1,2 and 3 format till 5 th gen fighter is inducted and then whynot


Depends on the condition of the aircraft. Unlike the other ex-Arab fighters we got that saw little to no use, Egyptians have been flying theirs for decades. 
Actually I wonder if Egypt had been sending their aircraft to France for major overhauls or if they have some capability in house as well.

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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Why not go for JFT-XL like F-16 XL.Having around 80% part sharing with JFT.
> 
> 
> If i am not wrong ROSE strike package is still better then or on par with JFT's.


Friend, you are coming to the party very late.

As we have spoken and narrated; the time to have transitioned all over into a new configuration/aircraft aka Cheetah is long over 18yrs back. M3/5 's era is long gone and needs to be put to a graveyard otherwise it is the pilots who will continue to pay the price for the lack of foresight by the govt/planners.



GriffinsRule said:


> Depends on the condition of the aircraft. Unlike the other ex-Arab fighters we got that saw little to no use, Egyptians have been flying theirs for decades.
> Actually I wonder if Egypt had been sending their aircraft to France for major overhauls or if they have some capability in house as well.


Egypt's capabilities in house are very limited friend.



syed_yusuf said:


> To clarify the EAF mirages are called mirage 5 but most of them are mirage 3e varient. This varient is used by PAF
> 
> I think paf should extract maximum value from these mirages in rose 1,2 and 3 format till 5 th gen fighter is inducted and then whynot


You cannot extract value from a complete hodge podge mixtures of M3/5 variants. It is long obsolete.

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## syed_yusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> Depends on the condition of the aircraft. Unlike the other ex-Arab fighters we got that saw little to no use, Egyptians have been flying theirs for decades.
> Actually I wonder if Egypt had been sending their aircraft to France for major overhauls or if they have some capability in house as well.


They have some capabilities in house but not where PAC is. I highly doubted that any of there examples will be Inducted to PAF . May be few in good condition could be available to fill in few numbers but most of them will be reduced to spares 

PAF operates 5 full mirage squadrons plus a CCS attachment. A pretty big number to support and operate



denel said:


> Friend, you are coming to the party very late.
> 
> As we have spoken and narrated; the time to have transitioned all over into a new configuration/aircraft aka Cheetah is long over 18yrs back. M3/5 's era is long gone and needs to be put to a graveyard otherwise it is the pilots who will continue to pay the price for the lack of foresight by the govt/planners.
> 
> 
> Egypt's capabilities in house are very limited friend.
> 
> 
> You cannot extract value from a complete hodge podge mixtures of M3/5 variants. It is long obsolete.



Mirage era in paf is coming to an end but a complete end is still 5 years away for sure 

I believe mirage 5 rise 2/3 will continue for some time

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## khanasifm

https://www.scramble.nl/orbats/egypt

236 FGA Brigade

69sq	Mirage 5SDE 
Mirage 5SDD 
Mirage 5SDR	


73sq	Mirage 5SDE 
Mirage 5SDD	

252 Tactical Fighter Wing

71sq	Mirage 5SDE 
Mirage 5SDR 
Mirage 5SDD


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## syed_yusuf

khanasifm said:


> https://www.scramble.nl/orbats/egypt
> 
> 236 FGA Brigade
> 
> 69sq Mirage 5SDE
> Mirage 5SDD
> Mirage 5SDR
> 
> 
> 73sq Mirage 5SDE
> Mirage 5SDD
> 
> 252 Tactical Fighter Wing
> 
> 71sq Mirage 5SDE
> Mirage 5SDR
> Mirage 5SDD




Mirage 5 SDE is basically a mirage 3E


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## syed_yusuf

Any update on mirage 5 horus?


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## khanasifm

Rose 1 and 2

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Mirages are certainly setup well with new Digital Tools and Newer weapons, plus the Advance radars and Awacs now also give more awareness to the pilots

Would have been nice had we integrated Helmet based targeting available for Mirage but I would imagine CPU / Computer is a bit older in these planes

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## mingle

According to Usman shabir PDF all our mirages currently flying are upgarded the old frame r retired and serves as gate keeper.


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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 541700
> 
> 
> Rose 1 and 2


nope https://www.airliners.net/photo/Chile-Air-Force/Dassault-SABCA-Mirage-5MA-Elkan/1886523/L


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## syed_yusuf

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 541700
> 
> 
> Rose 1 and 2


this i snot PAF Rose 1, 2, or 3


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## khanasifm

Sagem upgrade so its on paf and other af as well ??


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## denel

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Mirages are certainly setup well with new Digital Tools and Newer weapons, plus the Advance radars and Awacs now also give more awareness to the pilots
> 
> Would have been nice had we integrated Helmet based targeting available for Mirage but I would imagine CPU / Computer is a bit older in these planes


They were available but was not chosen. From SAAF's cheetah/F1/Mirage 3s programs - it was a done deal.
Yes, cpu/computer is completely obsolete by any standard.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Luckily the Missiles once fired they lock and take care of threat on their own which is something I appreciate

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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm

Fist two rose1 and 2 last one rose 3, rose3 with color HDd

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## syed_yusuf

khanasifm said:


> Fist two rose1 and 2 last one rose 3, rose3 with color HDd


First pic is not paf rose 

Second picture is that of rose 1 

Last picture is that of rose 3. 

Rose 2 cockpit is most probably same as rose 1

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## Chak Bamu

Well done ROSE Mirages.

Who would have thought that (almost) 50 year old Mirages will pull off something like the Brigade HQ attack, AND lure IAF jets into Pakistani territory. The shot IAF aircaft were chasing Mirages.

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## HRK

Chak Bamu said:


> Well done ROSE Mirages.
> 
> Who would have thought that (almost) 50 year old Mirages will pull off something like the Brigade HQ attack, AND lure IAF jets into Pakistani territory. The shot IAF aircaft were chasing Mirages.


na kara bhai ....its near to unenviable news .... Mirage was leading the air to ground attack in IOK


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## khanasifm



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## ARMalik

Chak Bamu said:


> Well done ROSE Mirages.
> 
> Who would have thought that (almost) 50 year old Mirages will pull off something like the Brigade HQ attack, AND lure IAF jets into Pakistani territory. The shot IAF aircaft were chasing Mirages.



Chak Bamu, can I ask what happened to the indian Brigade HQ, did it suffer damage?


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## Reichmarshal

We had it in our sights but choose not to distroy it so as not to escalate it any further.

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## Chak Bamu

ARMalik said:


> Chak Bamu, can I ask what happened to the indian Brigade HQ, did it suffer damage?


Per available information, PAF did not attack Brigade HQ. It is said that it was targeted but munitions were not released on it. Instead munitions were dropped in open area to avoid extensive damage. The purpose was to give a message, not spread destruction. Some recent information indicates that the open ground was not so open after all - there were Indian troops present.

The purpose was dual - give a notice & bait IAF at the same time. Just the fact that Mirages did it is something to marvel at.

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## Sabretooth

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Luckily the Missiles once fired they lock and take care of threat on their own which is something I appreciate



That is one clean, mean killing machine!



Chak Bamu said:


> Per available information, PAF did not attack Brigade HQ. It is said that it was targeted but munitions were not released on it. Instead munitions were dropped in open area to avoid extensive damage. The purpose was to give a message, not spread destruction. Some recent information indicates that the open ground was not so open after all - there were Indian troops present.
> 
> The purpose was dual - give a notice & bait IAF at the same time. Just the fact that Mirages did it is something to marvel at.



Mirages are the "Chupay Rustam" of PAF. God bless the flyboys.

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## salman-1

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 542716
> 
> 
> View attachment 542717


Most wanted and encouraging pictures of Mirages I've ever seen in Paf colours. Allah salamat rakhay.

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## khanasifm

Too much focus on air to air kill and far less on mirages role which were used
To convey the message

No plan on rewarding cockpit video ?? It gun camera video ??

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## khanasifm



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## Cuirassier

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 546420


Now that's an open acknowledgement!

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## Enigma SIG

CriticalThought said:


> VThe fact that our Central Air Defence command runs on Windows XP inspires zero trust.


Woah. Running mission critical systems on anything other than hardened Linux systems is blasphemy. Might as well just handover the keys to the air defence to the Indians in a ceremony on Wagah.


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## Dazzler

Going ballistic..

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## Windjammer



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## Amaa'n

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 546420


any idea who is making these? i have few friends who are interested in this one & the JFT one.....


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## mshan44



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## Tank131

@khanasifm Which white bombs are used there in the mirage picture. It looks like 8-10 total are being carried with 2 a2a missiles and 2 drop tanks.

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## ice_man

When are we planning to retire these legends?

Also what can we possibly replace the mirages with? nothing comes close to a true strike platform like the mirages.

Unfortunately India has the Mirage 2000s hence we cannot consider buying them as the enemy already has more experience then us on the platform.

Leaves us with hardly any fast main strike aircraft options.


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## ziaulislam

ice_man said:


> When are we planning to retire these legends?
> 
> Also what can we possibly replace the mirages with? nothing comes close to a true strike platform like the mirages.
> 
> Unfortunately India has the Mirage 2000s hence we cannot consider buying them as the enemy already has more experience then us on the platform.
> 
> Leaves us with hardly any fast main strike aircraft options.


Seems they will last till 2030 
They are put through overhaul and rebuild again and again
Ultimately they might hand over the job to either jf17, j10 or JXX 
Jf17 isnt ideal but can fulfill this role

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## Safriz

Tank131 said:


> @khanasifm Which white bombs are used there in the mirage picture. It looks like 8-10 total are being carried with 2 a2a missiles and 2 drop tanks.







__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## musaji

can someone please id the ordinance on this mirage here?


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## HRK

Tank131 said:


> @khanasifm Which white bombs are used there in the mirage picture. It looks like 8-10 total are being carried with 2 a2a missiles and 2 drop tanks.





musaji said:


> can someone please id the ordinance on this mirage here?


Hijara Anti Armour bomb .....

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## Safriz

HRK said:


> Hijara Anti Armour bomb .....


With this many anti Armour bombs per Mirage, we wont need Nar for Armoured brigades i guess?

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## HRK

شاھین میزایل said:


> With this many anti Armour bombs per Mirage, we wont need Nar for Armoured brigades i guess?


both have different use for different occasion this one is fight the war Nasr is to end the conventional war

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## aziqbal

Mirage has been great test bed for many new weapons 

Mirage received IFR way before JF17 Block II 

may lessons and experiences gained 

still a good fighter but the spare parts are getting more and more expensive and Pakistan still pays for expensive Dassault call outs for repairs, which needs to stop 

JF17 all the way

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## ice_man

aziqbal said:


> Mirage has been great test bed for many new weapons
> 
> Mirage received IFR way before JF17 Block II
> 
> may lessons and experiences gained
> 
> still a good fighter but the spare parts are getting more and more expensive and Pakistan still pays for expensive Dassault call outs for repairs, which needs to stop
> 
> JF17 all the way



JF17 is a good interceptor and a good Air Defence fighter. But hardly close to a mirage III strike aircraft yet. Hopefully by the next block it can be more of a strike aircraft. 

before you start jumping up and down. the point is simple JF17 can carry 1/3 of the payload of a mirage V. 

So ya JF17 is good very good but still not ready to be a main strike package fighter. 

sadly, we have limited options when it comes to main strike aircrafts as Mirage 2000s are with India and US won't sell us anything major like the Hornet F18s . and the eurofighter is too expensive.

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## princefaisal

ice_man said:


> JF17 is a good interceptor and a good Air Defence fighter. But hardly close to a mirage III strike aircraft yet. Hopefully by the next block it can be more of a strike aircraft.
> 
> before you start jumping up and down. the point is simple JF17 can carry 1/3 of the payload of a mirage V.
> 
> So ya JF17 is good very good but still not ready to be a main strike package fighter.
> 
> sadly, we have limited options when it comes to main strike aircrafts as Mirage 2000s are with India and US won't sell us anything major like the Hornet F18s . and the eurofighter is too expensive.


Max payload capacity of Mirage V is 4000 kg with Mach 2.2 speed while J-10C has a max payload capacity of 6000 kg with Mach 2 speed. So Mirages should be replaced with J-10Cs.

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## valkyr_96

aziqbal said:


> Mirage has been great test bed for many new weapons
> 
> Mirage received IFR way before JF17 Block II
> 
> may lessons and experiences gained
> 
> still a good fighter but the spare parts are getting more and more expensive and Pakistan still pays for expensive Dassault call outs for repairs, which needs to stop
> 
> JF17 all the way


But JF 17 cannot carry a lot of the munitions used by the Mirages.


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## MIRauf

F-16s be quicker option to go with and there is infrastructure built up to support it, training is readily available and probably handful of Pilots with JF-17 Squad that have flown it. J-10C would take longer then F-16 to be fully operational but would be less hassle free.

Only Problem with F-16s is that if PAF selects F-16 ( block xyz ) and Lockheed hands over the production line to India.

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## nomi007

why did PAF not got canard mirage III


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## khanasifm

Jf beats mirage in range due to turbofan engine vs fuel guzzler turbojet 

Carries more load 

Is far easier to maintain and fly

There is no comparison

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## khanasifm



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## Ali_Baba

Twin Racks for the JF17 SD10A launcher have not turned up in PAF just yet. I hope they do, but i think it is still a Work In progress for the PAF.

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## Thorough Pro

Many PDF members had totally written off Mirages almost a decade ago, but PAF knew what it was doing with them both in terms of upgrades and use. Our 50 year old mirages proved to be a lot better than IAF's relatively new SU30 MKI's which ran away from the battle, while Mirages not only stood their ground but achieved their targets. The gun cam/ hud videos are being used to demonstrate to other pilots how to lock and destroy your targets. 



Windjammer said:


>



Looks like cluster munitions




musaji said:


> can someone please id the ordinance on this mirage here?

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## FuturePAF

The recent event of February 2019 have demonstrated the PAF need to stay capable of engaging in not only air to air combat but air to ground strike, with the threat of enemy air defense ever present. After this brief but eventful episode, the humiliated Indians have re-doubled their plans to acquire modern air defenses, as well as modern war planes. The PAF has always sought to maintain the qualitative edge with better pilot training and exchange programs with friendly air forces. Despite this, there comes a point where our well trained pilots need an aircraft that is at least adequate enough to allow our pilots to face modern threats and still complete its mission. The mirage III and V of the PAF are still better suited for the strike role then the more modern JF-17, if only for their ability to carry heavier loads.

Due to the current economic crisis, the PAF will continue to rely on these aircraft to carry out strikes in time of conflict. In order to assure it will be able to do so in the face of the S-400 and Rafale Fighters, the PAF should consider upgrading these planes soon. The recent purchase of 30 Mirage Vs from Egypt includes a few Horus Mirages. These were upgraded in 2008-2010 with the following features:

A modern Pulse Doppler radar (RC-400)
HMD
Mission pods
MAWS
Night strike capability (visible and infrared optronics)
modern avionics overhaul (hopefully this includes a modern mission computer and modern glass cockpit)
inertial navigation equipement
on board and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively)


This is a decent upgrade package, but the PAF may need capabilities beyond these to allow the planes to stay relevant for the next 20 years. It should consider implementing the following on all flight-worthy mirages in its fleet:

Structural improvements (fixed canard and zeroing the air frame while strengthening the wings by selective use of composites)
Upgrading the engine (from the Atar-9c to not just the Atar9K50 but the Super Atar)
A Modern EW suite to include a modern jamming pod
A modern CNI suite (communication, Navigation, Identification) with modern Datalinks
single piece front canopy for better visibility
HOTAS
as well as other upgrades featured on the Cheetah and similar aircraft like the Kfir Block 60

Pakistan's good relations with Denel of South Africa, and it would make it a lot easier to approach them to consultant on applying these upgrades to our mirages in short order. Denel has gone through all the R&D, and even have aircraft in mothballs ready to sell. It behooves the PAF to look into it. PAF already has has the engine maintenance facilities at Kamra ready to do the upgrades on the Atar (https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/engi...ost-1942255)(https://www.pac.org.pk/atar.html), and it has trained technicians waiting for work. We have a mirage rebuild facility, so we can carry out air-frame upgrades in house. Also this would be a great project for Pakistan to work on right away at the joint Sino-Pak Aviation city. We could make the compressor blades for the upgraded engines, the radars, avionics, pods, EW equipment, communication equipment, HMD, and all other small components, all in Pakistan. Upgrading nearly 200 planes, along with maintaining the JF-17s will keep Kamra going for the next 10 years, all allowing skills to be built up while we transition to project AZM.










Upgrading 25% of the Fleet to house the air cooled LKF601E AESA radar will allow these strike planes to use the radars ground mapping capabilities to not only fly safely under enemy radar and over terrain, but to positively identify enemy targets quickly and get battle damage assessments in one pass. The Aesa Radar would allow the mirage to have EW support when operating alone and facing down enemy air defenses (Sams and aircraft). The remainder of the fleet can house the KLJ-7 radars coming off the JF-17s being upgraded with the LKF601E AESA radar, and allow the PAF to not waste perfectly good radars. Datalinks would share data from the Aesa equipped aircraft to their non-Aesa teammates.






Finally, another major upgrade that we should implement is modernizing the engine. The engine doesn't need to be replaced, but components can be swapped out for more modern ones to increase the thrust significantly. The current Atar-9C on the PAF mirage has a max thrust of 59KN while the mirage 2000's M53 engine has a max thrust of 95kn. The PAF could re-engine the plane with the RD-93/Ws-13 or even the WS-19 under development, but that would slow down upgrades and cost huge amounts (not to mention the South Africans tried on a Russian engine similar to the Rd-93 and failed to make it work). While not nearly as powerful, simply upgrading the engine is a more cost effective manner of reaching close to the thrust of the modern turbofans. The south Africans upgraded their Atar-9C to the Atar-9K50 standard and achieved a max thrust of 70kn. On one experimental aircraft they went one step further, and implemented the Super Atar upgrade, where it is said they saw a further 12% increase in thrust; 78 kn. This is a nearly 33% increase in thrust, and would allow these upgraded mirages to carry heavier loads and go further; so they can strike deeper and harder then ever before.

An upgrade of this magnitude would give the PAF as much breathing room in the A2G role as the JF-17 has given in the A2A role. Securing this capability in house would buy the nation time to build up its economy without skimping on defense.

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## khansaheeb

Pakistan should be planning to retire the Mirages, forget upgrades.


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## denel

Thank you; we were looking for this back 20+ yrs back. 

unfortunately the time is long gone and complete opportunities a long lost dream. Truly breaks my heart even today what could have been....

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## randomradio

FuturePAF said:


> The recent event of February 2019 have demonstrated the PAF need to stay capable of engaging in not only air to air combat but air to ground strike, with the threat of enemy air defense ever present. After this brief but eventful episode, the humiliated Indians have re-doubled their plans to acquire modern air defenses, as well as modern war planes. The PAF has always sought to maintain the qualitative edge with better pilot training and exchange programs with friendly air forces. Despite this, there comes a point where our well trained pilots need an aircraft that is at least adequate enough to allow our pilots to face modern threats and still complete its mission. The mirage III and V of the PAF are still better suited for the strike role then the more modern JF-17, if only for their ability to carry heavier loads.
> 
> Due to the current economic crisis, the PAF will continue to rely on these aircraft to carry out strikes in time of conflict. In order to assure it will be able to do so in the face of the S-400 and Rafale Fighters, the PAF should consider upgrading these planes soon. The recent purchase of 30 Mirage Vs from Egypt includes a few Horus Mirages. These were upgraded in 2008-2010 with the following features:
> 
> A modern Pulse Doppler radar (RC-400)
> HMD
> Mission pods
> MAWS
> Night strike capability (visible and infrared optronics)
> modern avionics overhaul (hopefully this includes a modern mission computer and modern glass cockpit)
> inertial navigation equipement
> on board and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively)
> 
> 
> This is a decent upgrade package, but the PAF may need capabilities beyond these to allow the planes to stay relevant for the next 20 years. It should consider implementing the following on all flight-worthy mirages in its fleet:
> 
> Structural improvements (fixed canard and zeroing the air frame while strengthening the wings by selective use of composites)
> Upgrading the engine (from the Atar-9c to not just the Atar9K50 but the Super Atar)
> A Modern EW suite to include a modern jamming pod
> A modern CNI suite (communication, Navigation, Identification) with modern Datalinks
> single piece front canopy for better visibility
> HOTAS
> as well as other upgrades featured on the Cheetah and similar aircraft like the Kfir Block 60
> 
> Pakistan's good relations with Denel of South Africa, and it would make it a lot easier to approach them to consultant on applying these upgrades to our mirages in short order. Denel has gone through all the R&D, and even have aircraft in mothballs ready to sell. It behooves the PAF to look into it. PAF already has has the engine maintenance facilities at Kamra ready to do the upgrades on the Atar (https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/engi...ost-1942255)(https://www.pac.org.pk/atar.html), and it has trained technicians waiting for work. We have a mirage rebuild facility, so we can carry out air-frame upgrades in house. Also this would be a great project for Pakistan to work on right away at the joint Sino-Pak Aviation city. We could make the compressor blades for the upgraded engines, the radars, avionics, pods, EW equipment, communication equipment, HMD, and all other small components, all in Pakistan. Upgrading nearly 200 planes, along with maintaining the JF-17s will keep Kamra going for the next 10 years, all allowing skills to be built up while we transition to project AZM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upgrading 25% of the Fleet to house the air cooled LKF601E AESA radar will allow these strike planes to use the radars ground mapping capabilities to not only fly safely under enemy radar and over terrain, but to positively identify enemy targets quickly and get battle damage assessments in one pass. The Aesa Radar would allow the mirage to have EW support when operating alone and facing down enemy air defenses (Sams and aircraft). The remainder of the fleet can house the KLJ-7 radars coming off the JF-17s being upgraded with the LKF601E AESA radar, and allow the PAF to not waste perfectly good radars. Datalinks would share data from the Aesa equipped aircraft to their non-Aesa teammates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, another major upgrade that we should implement is modernizing the engine. The engine doesn't need to be replaced, but components can be swapped out for more modern ones to increase the thrust significantly. The current Atar-9C on the PAF mirage has a max thrust of 59KN while the mirage 2000's M53 engine has a max thrust of 95kn. The PAF could re-engine the plane with the RD-93/Ws-13 or even the WS-19 under development, but that would slow down upgrades and cost huge amounts (not to mention the South Africans tried on a Russian engine similar to the Rd-93 and failed to make it work). While not nearly as powerful, simply upgrading the engine is a more cost effective manner of reaching close to the thrust of the modern turbofans. The south Africans upgraded their Atar-9C to the Atar-9K50 standard and achieved a max thrust of 70kn. On one experimental aircraft they went one step further, and implemented the Super Atar upgrade, where it is said they saw a further 12% increase in thrust; 78 kn. This is a nearly 33% increase in thrust, and would allow these upgraded mirages to carry heavier loads and go further; so they can strike deeper and harder then ever before.
> 
> An upgrade of this magnitude would give the PAF as much breathing room in the A2G role as the JF-17 has given in the A2A role. Securing this capability in house would buy the nation time to build up its economy without skimping on defense.



I don't believe PAF Mirages have much life left in them now.


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## FuturePAF

denel said:


> Thank you; we were looking for this back 20+ yrs back.
> 
> unfortunately the time is long gone and complete opportunities a long lost dream. Truly breaks my heart even today what could have been....



While its not the ideal solution, if it can be done for a relatively modest sum the PAF should still consider it. the alternative is either buying a small number of J-10CEs for the price of modernizing the entire Mirage Fleet. Either way, we are looking for a stop gap until Project AZM creates a platform that the PAF can hopefully afford when it becomes available.



randomradio said:


> I don't believe PAF Mirages have much life left in them now.



Hence the need to rebuild those that can be rebuilt, to keep up fighter/bomber numbers. While we are rebuilding using the Egyptian mirages for canalization, we might as well upgrade them so they can stay relevant, until we can afford to replace them.



khansaheeb said:


> Pakistan should be planning to retire the Mirages, forget upgrades.



I too wish we could retire the mirages, and buy J-10CEs, but we don't have the funds. At the same time, the threat is only getting worse, so we need to look for affordable ways to manage the threat.

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## ANG

FuturePAF said:


> Hi, I wanted to add a couple of points to the excellent post by Mr. FuturePAF. The following link covers the first in three articles on the upgrade of Mirages by the South African Air Force. I posted this link quite a few years ago.
> 
> https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2011/06/weekend-wings-39-south-africas-franken.html?m=1
> 
> A key takeaway is that the SMR-95, the precursor to the RD93 engine, was fitted to Mirage 3 and F1 aircraft. The issue was cost, lack of interest by clients and slight center of gravity issues (which could easily be rectified). The combat potential of these prototype planes increased dramatically.
> 
> I also specifically remember reading in an issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology in the 90s, that Pakistan was interested in reengining their Mirages and had spoken to South Africa about this topic. Moreover, relations with Russia are much better now, than they were back in 90s, when the cool war had just ended.
> 
> In addition, South Africa in their Cheetah upgrade zeroed the hours on the airframe and even added a small insert to the fuselage between the cockpit and air intakes, and lengthened the nose of the plane. South Africa even tested out an advanced combat wing with flaps and wing tip missile stations.
> 
> A complete remake of the PAF Mirages is possible, but the issue is cost. However, the planes coming out will have a zero hours airframe and huge comat improvement. Thanks!

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## randomradio

FuturePAF said:


> Hence the need to rebuild those that can be rebuilt, to keep up fighter/bomber numbers. While we are rebuilding using the Egyptian mirages for canalization, we might as well upgrade them so they can stay relevant, until we can afford to replace them.



The oldest Egyptian Mirage V is from 1975 and the newest from 1983. The rest of the Mirage III/V fleet in PAF was built in the 70s. So the newest aircraft is already more than 35 years old, whereas a large chunk of the fleet is already more than 45 years old. The oldest is, I believe, 52 years old now.

Last I heard, the entire fleet is to be phased out between 2025 and 2030. With such a small window, an upgrade is not feasible. You might be able to manage if you get at least 2 squadrons that were built post 80s though, which may survive up to 2035, but the cost of operating such a small fleet could make it unrealistic.

It increasingly looks like your best hope would be to absorb more second hand F-16s, and of course, the JF-17.

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## FuturePAF

randomradio said:


> The oldest Egyptian Mirage V is from 1975 and the newest from 1983. The rest of the Mirage III/V fleet in PAF was built in the 70s. So the newest aircraft is already more than 35 years old, whereas a large chunk of the fleet is already more than 45 years old. The oldest is, I believe, 52 years old now.
> 
> Last I heard, the entire fleet is to be phased out between 2025 and 2030. With such a small window, an upgrade is not feasible. You might be able to manage if you get at least 2 squadrons that were built post 80s though, which may survive up to 2035, but the cost of operating such a small fleet could make it unrealistic.
> 
> It increasingly looks like your best hope would be to absorb more second hand F-16s, and of course, the JF-17.



The reason I bring it up, is because PAF is buying second hand mirages and therefore plans to keep at least a portion of the fleet going. The need for a dedicated strike fighter/bomber is still there, and while used F-16s are ideal, they would be prioritized for the A2A role when and if they became available. The JF-17 would be great but it flys slower and has a lower weapons load.

The PAF has the mirage rebuild factory and Atar engine overhaul facility at Kamra. It may turn out they only upgrade a smaller portion of the fleet, as we did with the Rose Mirages, but we need the capability and need to cover it with our limited budget.

If the PAF can afford it, re-engineing the planes with the Rd-93/WS-13 would be better, but we can save money and time just upgrading the components of the Atar to the Super Atar standard. If we carry out these upgrades and have at least 3 squadrons available in the next 3-5 years, and they serve until 2035, then we will have had modern capabilities and can invest that money in other projects like Project AZM, without sacrificing capability.

3 Squadrons would be decent enough if you consider the IAF trusts its Mirage 2000s for the Strike role and they operate the same number: 3 Squadrons of Mirages.

P.S. A lot of the components for the upgrade will be those used in the JF-17 program. We will no longer have to buy French weapons. When these air frames are no longer flight-worthy their components (radar, EW equipement, comms, etc.) can be swapped into another second hand Mirage, and ultimately as spares for the JF-17s.

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## denel

FuturePAF said:


> The reason I bring it up, is because PAF is buying second hand mirages and therefore plans to keep at least a portion of the fleet going. The need for a dedicated strike fighter/bomber is still there, and while used F-16s are ideal, they would be prioritized for the A2A role when and if they became available. The JF-17 would be great but it flys slower and has a lower weapons load.
> 
> The PAF has the mirage rebuild factory and Atar engine overhaul facility at Kamra. It may turn out they only upgrade a smaller portion of the fleet, as we did with the Rose Mirages, but we need the capability and need to cover it with our limited budget.
> 
> If the PAF can afford it, re-engineing the planes with the Rd-93/WS-13 would be better, but we can save money and time just upgrading the components of the Atar to the Super Atar standard. If we carry out these upgrades and have at least 3 squadrons available in the next 3-5 years, and they serve until 2035, then we will have had modern capabilities and can invest that money in other projects like Project AZM, without sacrificing capability.
> 
> 3 Squadrons would be decent enough if you consider the IAF trusts its Mirage 2000s for the Strike role and they operate the same number: 3 Squadrons of Mirages.
> 
> P.S. A lot of the components for the upgrade will be those used in the JF-17 program. We will no longer have to buy French weapons. When these air frames are no longer flight-worthy their components (radar, EW equipement, comms, etc.) can be swapped into another second hand Mirage, and ultimately as spares for the JF-17s.



Friend, your desire is well understood but if it was done 20yrs back when a lot of input was being given by Atlas to Kamra including secure comms/datalink + IFRs + SoW retrofitting; this was laid out but we can only hypothesis why they chose not to go the Cheetah route. It would have resulted in overall successful platform even if it meant 60% were converted over or shall i say re-built over with a newer 9k50 engine.

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## FuturePAF

denel said:


> Friend, your desire is well understood but if it was done 20yrs back when a lot of input was being given by Atlas to Kamra including secure comms/datalink + IFRs + SoW retrofitting; this was laid out but we can only hypothesis why they chose not to go the Cheetah route. It would have resulted in overall successful platform even if it meant 60% were converted over or shall i say re-built over with a newer 9k50 engine.



Good Point, but what prevents Denel, on their part, from consulting on a modest upgrade program for a few squadrons of the PAF mirage fleet. With current electronics being a lot cheaper then 20 years ago and avionics work being done in house for the JF-17, wouldn't a relatively basic upgrade program keep our fleet relevant for the next 10-15 years for only a modest sum?

Do you think the PAF believes these mirages are no longer worth upgrading? That they are saving up money to buy used Mirage 2000s from Gulf Arab allies or new J-10CEs from China?

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## The Accountant

FuturePAF said:


> Good Point, but what prevents Denel, on their part, from consulting on a modest upgrade program for a few squadrons of the PAF mirage fleet. With current electronics being a lot cheaper then 20 years ago and avionics work being done in house for the JF-17, wouldn't a relatively basic upgrade program keep our fleet relevant for the next 10-15 years for only a modest sum?
> 
> Do you think the PAF believes these mirages are no longer worth upgrading? That they are saving up money to buy used Mirage 2000s from Gulf Arab allies or new J-10CEs from China?



No ... first of all airframes r really old so r risky from failure point of view ... secondly they use turbo jet engines which r fuel hungry ... last but not the least new avionics means alot of integration and testing of new weapon systems which will take at minimum 3 to4 years ... cost will be much higher than the benefits

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## FuturePAF

The Accountant said:


> No ... first of all airframes r really old so r risky from failure point of view ... secondly they use turbo jet engines which r fuel hungry ... last but not the least new avionics means alot of integration and testing of new weapon systems which will take at minimum 3 to4 years ... cost will be much higher than the benefits



We have the experience of the Rose Mirages and have acquired the Horus Mirages from Egypt. The key upgrades to maximize performance for the least cost are the radar, EW equipement, Night strike capability (visible and infrared optronics) in the form of an advanced targeting pod, a helmet mounted display, and MAWS. In order to get the full benefits we need to at least reach the upgrades the Horus mirages have achieved; modern avionics overhaul (hopefully this includes a modern mission computer and modern glass cockpit), inertial navigation equipement on board and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively)

We don't need to rehabilitate the entire fleet but should focus on the 3-4 squadrons worth of the best air frames. We should integrate the used KLJ-7 radars from the Block I and II JF-17s being upgraded with the LKF601E AESA from China. We can add a modern EW jamming pod to at least 25% of the air craft in each squadron, The Aselpod targetting pod for another 25% of the fleet, HMD so that pilots get the avionics data directly on their helmets, and MAWs sensors so they can avoid getting shot down.

As far as the avionics work, after studying the Horus Mirages, we could start a rushed program along with the Chinese avionics manufacturers to quickly integrate the upgrade. 3-4 years would mean avionics we have never tested, but I'm suggesting we integrate the same avionics developed for the JF-17. Hopefully we could get a prototype up and flying within 12-18 months of the start of such a program, and start upgrading mirages within 24 months of the start of the program. If we did a dozen aircraft a year (similar to JF-17 production rates), we could have 3 full strength squadrons at the end of the 6th year of the decision to start such a program.

Our pilots are trained on the mirages, and can train on the Horus mirages to get the feel of what the final products will look like. If the PAF feels it needs more planes, it can keep acquiring or refurbishing its own planes to continue at 12 planes a year. Along side 12 JF-17s produced a year, we would have two production lines running, keeping our fighter numbers strong enough till we can afford to replace the mirages.

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## ssethii

They will surely be upgraded beyond Cheetah standard anyway. 

MRF would push life of these airframes to their maximum limits


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## The Accountant

FuturePAF said:


> We have the experience of the Rose Mirages and have acquired the Horus Mirages from Egypt. The key upgrades to maximize performance for the least cost are the radar, EW equipement, Night strike capability (visible and infrared optronics) in the form of an advanced targeting pod, a helmet mounted display, and MAWS. In order to get the full benefits we need to at least reach the upgrades the Horus mirages have achieved; modern avionics overhaul (hopefully this includes a modern mission computer and modern glass cockpit), inertial navigation equipement on board and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively)
> 
> We don't need to rehabilitate the entire fleet but should focus on the 3-4 squadrons worth of the best air frames. We should integrate the used KLJ-7 radars from the Block I and II JF-17s being upgraded with the LKF601E AESA from China. We can add a modern EW jamming pod to at least 25% of the air craft in each squadron, The Aselpod targetting pod for another 25% of the fleet, HMD so that pilots get the avionics data directly on their helmets, and MAWs sensors so they can avoid getting shot down.
> 
> As far as the avionics work, after studying the Horus Mirages, we could start a rushed program along with the Chinese avionics manufacturers to quickly integrate the upgrade. 3-4 years would mean avionics we have never tested, but I'm suggesting we integrate the same avionics developed for the JF-17. Hopefully we could get a prototype up and flying within 12-18 months of the start of such a program, and start upgrading mirages within 24 months of the start of the program. If we did a dozen aircraft a year (similar to JF-17 production rates), we could have 3 full strength squadrons at the end of the 6th year of the decision to start such a program.
> 
> Our pilots are trained on the mirages, and can train on the Horus mirages to get the feel of what the final products will look like. If the PAF feels it needs more planes, it can keep acquiring or refurbishing its own planes to continue at 12 planes a year. Along side 12 JF-17s produced a year, we would have two production lines running, keeping our fighter numbers strong enough till we can afford to replace the mirages.


The systems u mentioned cost half of the aircraft ... mirrage engines r outdated ...
Airframes r weak and also not very expensive as compared to cost of whole aircraft ...

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## FuturePAF

The Accountant said:


> The systems u mentioned cost half of the aircraft ... mirrage engines r outdated ...
> Airframes r weak and also not very expensive as compared to cost of whole aircraft ...



How many air frames do you suppose are still flight worthy to survive another 10-15 years? This is the real question that needs to be asked. Beyond this number, we know will need to be replaced. For the flight worthy air frames left, If we can at least swap the radar for the KLJ-7 from the JF-17 Block I and II about to get upgraded to the LKE601E Aesa, we can save on the cost of the Radar. Add 4 EW pods per squadron and 4 modern targeting pods per squadron and you have a decent enough force to carry on the strike role.

Like I said earlier, If we had the money I would like to see all the Mirages replaced with J-10CE on a one for one basis, but that isn't going to happen unless we find out we have actually discovered huge oil reserves, or the economy dramatically recovers in the next 3-4 years. I agree that after a certain point the fatigue on an air-frame makes the aircraft beyond hope.


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## denel

FuturePAF said:


> How many air frames do you suppose are still flight worthy to survive another 10-15 years? This is the real question that needs to be asked. Beyond this number, we know will need to be replaced. For the flight worthy air frames left, If we can at least swap the radar for the KLJ-7 from the JF-17 Block I and II about to get upgraded to the LKE601E Aesa, we can save on the cost of the Radar. Add 4 EW pods per squadron and 4 modern targeting pods per squadron and you have a decent enough force to carry on the strike role.
> 
> Like I said earlier, If we had the money I would like to see all the Mirages replaced with J-10CE on a one for one basis, but that isn't going to happen unless we find out we have actually discovered huge oil reserves, or the economy dramatically recovers in the next 3-4 years. I agree that after a certain point the fatigue on an air-frame makes the aircraft beyond hope.


It is all about ROI. Right now, there is no appetite to keep Mirages affloat but it is from what i gather lack of funds overall but still there is no credible option for SOW carriers; only exception being Jh-7 which we keep on being scoffed at. While ROSE added better capabilities it did not address the core airframe/engine challenges.

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## M.AsfandYar

randomradio said:


> I don't believe PAF Mirages have much life left in them now.


Fortunately, your disbelief is irrelevant.



denel said:


> It is all about ROI. Right now, there is no appetite to keep Mirages affloat but it is from what i gather lack of funds overall but still there is no credible option for SOW carriers; only exception being Jh-7 which we keep on being scoffed at. While ROSE added better capabilities it did not address the core airframe/engine challenges.


Hence the new purchase. PAF plans to keep them in air till the very last moment.
Though as people keep talking about upgrades. That truly does make no sense. The new purchase is purely for cannibalization.


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## SQ8

denel said:


> It is all about ROI. Right now, there is no appetite to keep Mirages affloat but it is from what i gather lack of funds overall but still there is no credible option for SOW carriers; only exception being Jh-7 which we keep on being scoffed at. While ROSE added better capabilities it did not address the core airframe/engine challenges.


JH-7 was evaluated and found to be lacking in terms of a RoI.
The Mirages are extremely customizable after the JF-17 and so far the only ones qualified for Raptor carriage.

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## randomradio

FuturePAF said:


> The reason I bring it up, is because PAF is buying second hand mirages and therefore plans to keep at least a portion of the fleet going. The need for a dedicated strike fighter/bomber is still there, and while used F-16s are ideal, they would be prioritized for the A2A role when and if they became available. The JF-17 would be great but it flys slower and has a lower weapons load.
> 
> The PAF has the mirage rebuild factory and Atar engine overhaul facility at Kamra. It may turn out they only upgrade a smaller portion of the fleet, as we did with the Rose Mirages, but we need the capability and need to cover it with our limited budget.
> 
> If the PAF can afford it, re-engineing the planes with the Rd-93/WS-13 would be better, but we can save money and time just upgrading the components of the Atar to the Super Atar standard. If we carry out these upgrades and have at least 3 squadrons available in the next 3-5 years, and they serve until 2035, then we will have had modern capabilities and can invest that money in other projects like Project AZM, without sacrificing capability.
> 
> 3 Squadrons would be decent enough if you consider the IAF trusts its Mirage 2000s for the Strike role and they operate the same number: 3 Squadrons of Mirages.
> 
> P.S. A lot of the components for the upgrade will be those used in the JF-17 program. We will no longer have to buy French weapons. When these air frames are no longer flight-worthy their components (radar, EW equipement, comms, etc.) can be swapped into another second hand Mirage, and ultimately as spares for the JF-17s.



About 45-50 Mirage Vs could be pushed to 2035. That will give you 3 squadrons.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> It is all about ROI. Right now, there is no appetite to keep Mirages affloat but it is from what i gather lack of funds overall but still there is no credible option for SOW carriers; only exception being Jh-7 which we keep on being scoffed at. While ROSE added better capabilities it did not address the core airframe/engine challenges.



Hi,

The americans are proving again that the old relic---the B52 is good as new one more time---with capabilities no one ever dreamt of---.

Sometimes the utility of the weapon is not what it can do or fit in---but it is about the effect it has upon the enemy that counts the most---like the Starfighter F104---.

Paf's mentality is buried deep in the Single Engine mindset---it needs to pull itself out of that frame of mind and need to find a heavy strike aircraft rather than depending on light TOY HAULERS---.

Paf is not known to think ahead of time about the problems that it would face---.

It has always been a day late and a dollar short---. It does recover somewhat from its blunders---because the enemy is equally incompetent---.

If it was not made a match made in heavens / hell---pakistan/india---pakistan would have been in deeper sh-it---.

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## BATMAN

FuturePAF said:


> It may turn out they only upgrade a smaller portion of the fleet, as we did with the Rose Mirages


If you are talking about Egyptian mirages, than those are already at higher upgrade level than any of ROSE.
Those who are not, will be cannibalized.

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## ziaulislam

randomradio said:


> The oldest Egyptian Mirage V is from 1975 and the newest from 1983. The rest of the Mirage III/V fleet in PAF was built in the 70s. So the newest aircraft is already more than 35 years old, whereas a large chunk of the fleet is already more than 45 years old. The oldest is, I believe, 52 years old now.
> 
> Last I heard, the entire fleet is to be phased out between 2025 and 2030. With such a small window, an upgrade is not feasible. You might be able to manage if you get at least 2 squadrons that were built post 80s though, which may survive up to 2035, but the cost of operating such a small fleet could make it unrealistic.
> 
> It increasingly looks like your best hope would be to absorb more second hand F-16s, and of course, the JF-17.


It depends upon flying hours..alot of those had enough airframe hours because they were retired early (build in 1970s retired in 1980s and than picke d up by PAF in early 2000s) some were in kits,(libyain ones)

Pac strips the air frame completely and rebuilds them..so a smaller fleet can easily be pushed to 2030 ..i am certain PAF will keep 3-4 sq till 2030. Unless it finds a replacement earlier

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## baqai

I wouldn't discard Mirages on age, F-16 is old platform and so is A-10, if there is life in the airframe and we can keep it upto date with latest avionics we should do it until and unless we are sufficient enough to replace it with JF-17 or some other platform, it's about ROI how much we are getting in return for what we are spending

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## ziaulislam

شاھین میزایل said:


> With this many anti Armour bombs per Mirage, we wont need Nar for Armoured brigades i guess?


If u can maintain aerial denial against IAF ..than yes.. Asingle run of mirage 5s with cluster bombs can decimate an armoured brigade

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The americans are proving again that the old relic---the B52 is good as new one more time---with capabilities no one ever dreamt of---.
> 
> Sometimes the utility of the weapon is not what it can do or fit in---but it is about the effect it has upon the enemy that counts the most---like the Starfighter F104---.
> 
> Paf's mentality is buried deep in the Single Engine mindset---it needs to pull itself out of that frame of mind and need to find a heavy strike aircraft rather than depending on light TOY HAULERS---.
> 
> Paf is not known to think ahead of time about the problems that it would face---.
> 
> It has always been a day late and a dollar short---. It does recover somewhat from its blunders---because the enemy is equally incompetent---.
> 
> If it was not made a match made in heavens / hell---pakistan/india---pakistan would have been in deeper sh-it---.


Yes, correct. mindset is not strategic or having independent institutions to do the development.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Yes, correct. mindset is not strategic or having independent institutions to do the development.



Hi,

I would guarantee that under fear of a threat of court martial and termination under disgrace---the force will find the JH7A worthy----and make it worthy of an examplary task---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would guarantee that under fear of a threat of court martial and termination under disgrace---the force will find the JH7A worthy----and make it worthy of an examplary task---.


Absolutely, this is the perfect platform for strategic strike - equivalent of Mirage IV; but both of us get flak for even mentioning it. It is silly - they rather get M3 with engines which are end of life to continue on - with Cheetah we dumped the engine and went in with 9k engine - a huge improvement. When we were getting rid of the Cheetah fleet, they did not even bother to buy them - they rather buy Egyptian junk.

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## gangsta_rap

denel said:


> they rather buy Egyptian junk.



You can't go ahead and simply dismiss SAGEM's work on these mirages


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## denel

GIANTsasquatch said:


> You can't go ahead and simply dismiss SAGEM's work on these mirages


You cannot compare Cheetah full house capabilities vs patched up SAGEM's work on what is on Egyptian; one is a completely new platform vs an upgrade of sorts. Please read up on details for Cheetah.

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## randomradio

ziaulislam said:


> It depends upon flying hours..alot of those had enough airframe hours because they were retired early (build in 1970s retired in 1980s and than picke d up by PAF in early 2000s) some were in kits,(libyain ones)



The problem is the very old date of construction, dating all the way back to the 60s, late 70s and early 80s. And it's been nearly 20 years since the 2000s now, or 40+ years from the last date of construction.

Take our Jaguars for example, we bought a bunch of them early on, which were delivered until the late 80s. And then we continued buying more Jaguars all way until later 2000s. And we plan to operate them into the 2040s. Meaning about 80 Jaguars were inducted after the 90s and are less than 30 years old.

Operating M Vs until 2030 is feasible, but beyond that's gonna be questionable.

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## jupiter2007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would guarantee that under fear of a threat of court martial and termination under disgrace---the force will find the JH7A worthy----and make it worthy of an examplary task---.



OMG, why don’t you give it a rest, we will never get JH-7A. Unless Chinese redesign it like below picture.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The americans are proving again that the old relic---the B52 is good as new one more time---with capabilities no one ever dreamt of---.
> 
> Sometimes the utility of the weapon is not what it can do or fit in---but it is about the effect it has upon the enemy that counts the most---like the Starfighter F104---.
> 
> Paf's mentality is buried deep in the Single Engine mindset---it needs to pull itself out of that frame of mind and need to find a heavy strike aircraft rather than depending on light TOY HAULERS---.
> 
> Paf is not known to think ahead of time about the problems that it would face---.
> 
> It has always been a day late and a dollar short---. It does recover somewhat from its blunders---because the enemy is equally incompetent---.
> 
> If it was not made a match made in heavens / hell---pakistan/india---pakistan would have been in deeper sh-it---.



Considering the budget crunch, do you still believe the JH-7A is the best option for the PAF, or should it try to go for something else? The PAF did fly with it in many exercises.

Would trying to convince the Saudis to sell their Tornados (at a reasonable price) be a better option? They operate 81 Tornados IDS (Strike variant) and buying the whole lot with infrastructure, spares, and munitions should offer a formidable strike platform that can serve for up to another two decades. The tornado has the legs for relatively long range naval strike as well as deep strike into enemy territory; where we can launch PGMs into denied air space guarded by modern air defenses. The Tornados would also keep Pakistan's Fleet diversified in terms of suppliers; considering the new Leonardo office being setup in Islamabad and our generally decent relations with the UK, the Saudi Clout could allow us to buy a lot of spares and advanced munitions before any new hostiles and potential halt to supplies.

*The Saudis plan to retire their Tornados in 2020* and will probably sell them back to the UK as they did with their ADV (Air Defense Version) Tornados back in 2007. The IDS planes were upgraded in 2006 to the *GR4 Standard* and are currently seeing action over Yemen. If Pakistan can convince the Saudi to sell or gift the Tornados to Pakistan (*MBS did say to consider him the Ambassador of Pakistan to Saudi Arabia*), its worth a try to ask, and if Pakistan could get these 81 planes, it would solve most of the strike requirement in one sweep. We could retire 5 squadrons worth of mirages on a pure numbers basis, or the entire mirage fleet on a tonnage carried basis. *The Tornados would allow the PAF to equally match the Rafale in Strike capabilities. Remember the Tornados were upgraded to the GR4 standard, which is an upgrade that keeps in mind the S-300 type threats. Operating with the JF-17 Block III with advanced EW **equipment**, F-16s, and possibly J-10CE should be a formidable force for the IAF to contend with. *



Oscar said:


> JH-7 was evaluated and found to be lacking in terms of a RoI.
> The Mirages are extremely customizable after the JF-17 and so far the only ones qualified for Raptor carriage.


In what way were the JH-7A found to be lacking? Would the Saudi Tornados be a better option if the PAF can acquire them? (Saudis plan to retire them in 2020 and they operate 81 strike variant Tornados upgraded approximately 10 years ago)

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## araz

Oscar said:


> JH-7 was evaluated and found to be lacking in terms of a RoI.
> The Mirages are extremely customizable after the JF-17 and so far the only ones qualified for Raptor carriage.



Oscar.
Do you have any info on why PAF did not go down the upgraded Mirage route even in early 2000s when it was a suitable option given dearth of suitable platforms that could be procured?
A

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## Readerdefence

BATMAN said:


> If you are talking about Egyptian mirages, than those are already at higher upgrade level than any of ROSE.
> Those who are not, will be cannibalized.


Hi BATMAN any info about their upgrade package or any link will be appreciated 
Thank you


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## BATMAN

Readerdefence said:


> Hi BATMAN any info about their upgrade package or any link will be appreciated
> Thank you



I think Horus upgrade has RC400 radar, BVR able, HMD, HUD, hardpoint for Jaming /targeting pod. all what 4th generation fighter should have!

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## Readerdefence

BATMAN said:


> I think Horus upgrade has RC400 radar, BVR able, HMD, HUD, hardpoint for Jaming /targeting pod. all what 4th generation fighter should have!


Hi thx for your reply


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## Pakistani Fighter

BATMAN said:


> I think Horus upgrade has RC400 radar, BVR able, HMD, HUD, hardpoint for Jaming /targeting pod. all what 4th generation fighter should have!


Can Metoer be integerated on it?


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## denel

baqai said:


> I wouldn't discard Mirages on age, F-16 is old platform and so is A-10, if there is life in the airframe and we can keep it upto date with latest avionics we should do it until and unless we are sufficient enough to replace it with JF-17 or some other platform, it's about ROI how much we are getting in return for what we are spending


You must remember the time frame and materials used with the original airframes; there is only so much you can do before it goes. Cheetah had newer airframes with newer material alloys to start with making it a zero hour.



jupiter2007 said:


> OMG, why don’t you give it a rest, we will never get JH-7A. Unless Chinese redesign it like below picture.
> 
> View attachment 555060


It is not about style but fitment to purpose. It does the job plus it is with spey engines.
mastan is correct; they are stuck in a hole and cannot think out of the box away from a Mirage or f-16; it is a blessing that someone had the foresight to pursue jf-17 but i can only imagine what that person would have been through heckling and nightmare by an inbred mafia who never want to change status quo because it does not feed their corrupt pockets.



FuturePAF said:


> Considering the budget crunch, do you still believe the JH-7A is the best option for the PAF, or should it try to go for something else? The PAF did fly with it in many exercises.
> 
> Would trying to convince the Saudis to sell their Tornados (at a reasonable price) be a better option? They operate 81 Tornados IDS (Strike variant) and buying the whole lot with infrastructure, spares, and munitions should offer a formidable strike platform that can serve for up to another two decades. The tornado has the legs for relatively long range naval strike as well as deep strike into enemy territory; where we can launch PGMs into denied air space guarded by modern air defenses. The Tornados would also keep Pakistan's Fleet diversified in terms of suppliers; considering the new Leonardo office being setup in Islamabad and our generally decent relations with the UK, the Saudi Clout could allow us to buy a lot of spares and advanced munitions before any new hostiles and potential halt to supplies.
> 
> *The Saudis plan to retire their Tornados in 2020* and will probably sell them back to the UK as they did with their ADV (Air Defense Version) Tornados back in 2007. The IDS planes were upgraded in 2006 to the GR4 Standard and are currently seeing action over Yemen. If Pakistan can convince the Saudi to sell or gift the Tornados to Pakistan (MBS did say to consider him the Ambassador of Pakistan to Saudi Arabia), its worth a try to try to get these 80 planes.
> 
> 
> In what way were the JH-7A found to be lacking? Would the Saudi Tornados be a better option if the PAF can acquire them? (Saudis plan to retire them in 2020 and they operate 81 strike variant Tornados upgraded approximately 10 years ago)


Tornado is a good option but remember maintenance on a swingwing is pretty hefty. British aircraft need a lot of hand holding and entire new workstream need to be opened.

Question comes whether it can carry all the strategic options and will there be any components that require TIT's signoff. Again sanctions need to be kept in mind.



princefaisal said:


> Max payload capacity of Mirage V is 4000 kg with Mach 2.2 speed while J-10C has a max payload capacity of 6000 kg with Mach 2 speed. So Mirages should be replaced with J-10Cs.


correction. Mach 2 speeds is not possible with full loaded.

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## jupiter2007

denel said:


> You must remember the time frame and materials used with the original airframes; there is only so much you can do before it goes. Cheetah had newer airframes with newer material alloys to start with making it a zero hour.
> 
> 
> It is not about style but fitment to purpose. It does the job plus it is with spey engines.
> mastan is correct; they are stuck in a hole and cannot think out of the box away from a Mirage or f-16; it is a blessing that someone had the foresight to pursue jf-17 but i can only imagine what that person would have been through heckling and nightmare by an inbred mafia who never want to change status quo because it does not feed their corrupt pockets.
> 
> 
> Tornado is a good option but remember maintenance on a swingwing is pretty hefty. British aircraft need a lot of hand holding and entire new workstream need to be opened.
> 
> Question comes whether it can carry all the strategic options and will there be any components that require TIT's signoff. Again sanctions need to be kept in mind.
> 
> 
> correction. Mach 2 speeds is not possible with full loaded.




Only option is to double JF -17 production to replace older planes. 
For Stop gap purpose until 5th gen ready: surplus F-16 (if available), Typhoon from Italy if available, Su-35 if offered with AESA Radar, Chinese option is always there.

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## denel

jupiter2007 said:


> Only option is to double JF -17 production to replace older planes.
> For Stop gap purpose until 5th gen ready: surplus F-16 (if available), Typhoon from Italy if available, Su-35 if offered with AESA Radar, Chinese option is always there.


concur. plus taken up blk4 specs


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## Maxpane

denel said:


> You must remember the time frame and materials used with the original airframes; there is only so much you can do before it goes. Cheetah had newer airframes with newer material alloys to start with making it a zero hour.


sir what happened to cheetahs?


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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> Considering the budget crunch, do you still believe the JH-7A is the best option for the PAF, or should it try to go for something else? The PAF did fly with it in many exercises.
> 
> Would trying to convince the Saudis to sell their Tornados (at a reasonable price) be a better option? They operate 81 Tornados IDS (Strike variant) and buying the whole lot with infrastructure, spares, and munitions should offer a formidable strike platform that can serve for up to another two decades. The tornado has the legs for relatively long range naval strike as well as deep strike into enemy territory; where we can launch PGMs into denied air space guarded by modern air defenses. The Tornados would also keep Pakistan's Fleet diversified in terms of suppliers; considering the new Leonardo office being setup in Islamabad and our generally decent relations with the UK, the Saudi Clout could allow us to buy a lot of spares and advanced munitions before any new hostiles and potential halt to supplies.
> 
> *The Saudis plan to retire their Tornados in 2020* and will probably sell them back to the UK as they did with their ADV (Air Defense Version) Tornados back in 2007. The IDS planes were upgraded in 2006 to the GR4 Standard and are currently seeing action over Yemen. If Pakistan can convince the Saudi to sell or gift the Tornados to Pakistan (MBS did say to consider him the Ambassador of Pakistan to Saudi Arabia), its worth a try to try to get these 80 planes.
> 
> 
> In what way were the JH-7A found to be lacking? Would the Saudi Tornados be a better option if the PAF can acquire them? (Saudis plan to retire them in 2020 and they operate 81 strike variant Tornados upgraded approximately 10 years ago)



Hi,

If it can carry two 1000 kg missiles---it might be suitable---. British tech needs a lots of maintenance---.

How did the A5 Fantan made thru the ROI---?

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If it can carry two 1000 kg missiles---it might be suitable---. British tech needs a lots of maintenance---.
> 
> How did the A5 Fantan made thru the ROI---?


hit the nail on the head with a5!!!


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## untitled

Maxpane said:


> sir what happened to cheetahs?


Sold to the US (as aggressors) and got replaced by Gripens in South African service


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## denel

member.exe said:


> Sold to the US (as aggressors) and got replaced by Gripens in South African service


Bulk went to Ecuador as well to co-exist with their kfir fleet.



GIANTsasquatch said:


> You can't go ahead and simply dismiss SAGEM's work on these mirages

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## SQ8

araz said:


> Oscar.
> Do you have any info on why PAF did not go down the upgraded Mirage route even in early 2000s when it was a suitable option given dearth of suitable platforms that could be procured?
> A


Till the Earthquake the idea was for JF-17 ramp-up to replace F-7s - 36 block 52s and additional AM/BMs to bring F-16s to 100. Then add about 36 to 48 FC-20 as strike aircraft(since the French would not sell us the M2k and other operators werent ready to part with theirs yet) 
So by 2020: 100 F-16, 150 JF-17, 48 J-10 & 48 F-7pG.. a pretty decent force.

Then the earthquake happened so -18 F-16 and J-10 but delayed is the right term. Focus was still on getting second hand F-16s to keep the multirole aspect going. 

But the true disaster was PPP government and the rape of Pakistan.
As I oft say, the PAF could not even pay interest on the fairly soft loans it had for other procurement.

Additionally, some 5-10% is normal to be lost in corruption and inefficiency within the PAF.



FuturePAF said:


> Considering the budget crunch, do you still believe the JH-7A is the best option for the PAF, or should it try to go for something else? The PAF did fly with it in many exercises.
> 
> Would trying to convince the Saudis to sell their Tornados (at a reasonable price) be a better option? They operate 81 Tornados IDS (Strike variant) and buying the whole lot with infrastructure, spares, and munitions should offer a formidable strike platform that can serve for up to another two decades. The tornado has the legs for relatively long range naval strike as well as deep strike into enemy territory; where we can launch PGMs into denied air space guarded by modern air defenses. The Tornados would also keep Pakistan's Fleet diversified in terms of suppliers; considering the new Leonardo office being setup in Islamabad and our generally decent relations with the UK, the Saudi Clout could allow us to buy a lot of spares and advanced munitions before any new hostiles and potential halt to supplies.
> 
> *The Saudis plan to retire their Tornados in 2020* and will probably sell them back to the UK as they did with their ADV (Air Defense Version) Tornados back in 2007. The IDS planes were upgraded in 2006 to the GR4 Standard and are currently seeing action over Yemen. If Pakistan can convince the Saudi to sell or gift the Tornados to Pakistan (MBS did say to consider him the Ambassador of Pakistan to Saudi Arabia), its worth a try to try to get these 80 planes.
> 
> 
> In what way were the JH-7A found to be lacking? Would the Saudi Tornados be a better option if the PAF can acquire them? (Saudis plan to retire them in 2020 and they operate 81 strike variant Tornados upgraded approximately 10 years ago)



The JH-7 was a singular strike platform that was found to be adding a greater payload capacity and some A2A but underpowered and maintenance heavy. 
Additionally it would be obsolete by today(as it is still a 1960s design philosophy) but would incur an additional five years to learn the type, create a logistics pipeline and ensure operational integrity.

It also wasn’t “cheap” either, initial costs were going to be only slightly lower than inducting a J-10 variant which offered more capabilities per pound along with future-proofed.

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## Quwa

Oscar said:


> Till the Earthquake the idea was for JF-17 ramp-up to replace F-7s - 36 block 52s and additional AM/BMs to bring F-16s to 100. Then add about 36 to 48 FC-20 as strike aircraft(since the French would not sell us the M2k and other operators werent ready to part with theirs yet)
> So by 2020: 100 F-16, 150 JF-17, 48 J-10 & 48 F-7pG.. a pretty decent force.
> 
> Then the earthquake happened so -18 F-16 and J-10 but delayed is the right term. Focus was still on getting second hand F-16s to keep the multirole aspect going.
> 
> But the true disaster was PPP government and the rape of Pakistan.
> As I oft say, the PAF could not even pay interest on the fairly soft loans it had for other procurement.
> 
> Additionally, some 5-10% is normal to be lost in corruption and inefficiency within the PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> The JH-7 was a singular strike platform that was found to be adding a greater payload capacity and some A2A but underpowered and maintenance heavy.
> Additionally it would be obsolete by today(as it is still a 1960s design philosophy) but would incur an additional five years to learn the type, create a logistics pipeline and ensure operational integrity.
> 
> It also wasn’t “cheap” either, initial costs were going to be only slightly lower than inducting a J-10 variant which offered more capabilities per pound along with future-proofed.


Pre-earthquake Lockheed Martin scoped that the PAF could push its Block-52+ purchases to 55 aircraft. I suspect had it not been for the earthquake, the DSCA request would've been 36 planes + 18 optional.

Truly, 110 F-16s (Block-52/MLU) and 40 M2K-5 (if even used) would've been a sharp spear-tip, especially with 150 JF-17s with the Thales/MBDA package, which probably included the TopOwl-F HMD/S and a HOBS AAM via ASRAAM or IRIS-T (which were conspicuously shown at IDEAS 2006).

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## Army research

Quwa said:


> Pre-earthquake Lockheed Martin scoped that the PAF could push its Block-52+ purchases to 55 aircraft. I suspect had it not been for the earthquake, the DSCA request would've been 36 planes + 18 optional.
> 
> Truly, 110 F-16s (Block-52/MLU) and 40 M2K-5 (if even used) would've been a sharp spear-tip, especially with 150 JF-17s with the Thales/MBDA package, which probably included the TopOwl-F HMD/S and a HOBS AAM via ASRAAM or IRIS-T (which were conspicuously shown at IDEAS 2006).


But sir aaj bhi bhutto zinda hai, worth more than all the goodies you mentioned , just wait a few years and tharparkar will beat the living standards of copenhagen and Vienna

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## denel

Quwa said:


> Pre-earthquake Lockheed Martin scoped that the PAF could push its Block-52+ purchases to 55 aircraft. I suspect had it not been for the earthquake, the DSCA request would've been 36 planes + 18 optional.
> 
> Truly, 110 F-16s (Block-52/MLU) and 40 M2K-5 (if even used) would've been a sharp spear-tip, especially with 150 JF-17s with the Thales/MBDA package, which probably included the TopOwl-F HMD/S and a HOBS AAM via ASRAAM or IRIS-T (which were conspicuously shown at IDEAS 2006).


True. Still the option to pursue M2K remains viable.


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## MastanKhan

Quwa said:


> Pre-earthquake Lockheed Martin scoped that the PAF could push its Block-52+ purchases to 55 aircraft. I suspect had it not been for the earthquake, the DSCA request would've been 36 planes + 18 optional.
> 
> Truly, 110 F-16s (Block-52/MLU) and 40 M2K-5 (if even used) would've been a sharp spear-tip, especially with 150 JF-17s with the Thales/MBDA package, which probably included the TopOwl-F HMD/S and a HOBS AAM via ASRAAM or IRIS-T (which were conspicuously shown at IDEAS 2006).



Hi,

Earthquake should have never been the reason to stop the purchase---. That money got looted and plundered---.

Funds for weapons must never be spent on anything else---.

Stopping that sale---Paf made pakistan to commit suicide on the battle front against India---.

Once India found out---pak had no funds for aircraft---and no potent aircraft in service---it attitude towards pakistan became openly confrontational---.

So---basically---Paf intentionally or out of stupidity sabotaged the military standing of pakistan---.

Paf had assumed that the threat of war was gone and peace was about to be made---and thus the money spent on the F16's would be a wastage---.

Bottom line---WARRIORS must think of their weapons only and nothing else---.

The issue is with the Drama that the Paf created after 9/11---checking this aircraft ( grippen )---checking that aircraft ( rafale )---sticking nose here----sticking nose there---.

The focus should have been on BLK52---and after 9/11 when the alliance was created---the demand made to the US for the aircraft right away---.

What is amazing is that on the day of 9/11---the pakistani F16's were barely able to fly---Paf had no resource---but the day they became available or the options opened up---there was no urgency shown---no push or pull to get the aircraft on a fastrak---.

Anyway----so yeah---if the Jh7A did not pas the muster---how come the A5 pass the muster---. Who cleared the A5 for purchase---.

There is too much deceit in Paf's explanation of events---.

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## FuturePAF

denel said:


> You must remember the time frame and materials used with the original airframes; there is only so much you can do before it goes. Cheetah had newer airframes with newer material alloys to start with making it a zero hour.
> 
> 
> It is not about style but fitment to purpose. It does the job plus it is with spey engines.
> mastan is correct; they are stuck in a hole and cannot think out of the box away from a Mirage or f-16; it is a blessing that someone had the foresight to pursue jf-17 but i can only imagine what that person would have been through heckling and nightmare by an inbred mafia who never want to change status quo because it does not feed their corrupt pockets.
> 
> 
> Tornado is a good option but remember maintenance on a swingwing is pretty hefty. British aircraft need a lot of hand holding and entire new workstream need to be opened.
> 
> Question comes whether it can carry all the strategic options and will there be any components that require TIT's signoff. Again sanctions need to be kept in mind.
> 
> 
> correction. Mach 2 speeds is not possible with full loaded.



Sanctions are definitely a concern, which is why a healthy amount of spares and weapons would have to be bought as part of the deal. A through evaluation would have to be made as to the viability of a Tornado force for the PAF, but on the surface level, the Tornado is ideal per capabilities while potentially being affordable on the front end. Long term it may face the whims of the European and American defense establishments, but the PAF has managed to operate the F-16 over these past 30 years. Worst case, we cannibalize the Tornados and operate them like the Iranians operate their Tomcats. If we can get a decent platform at an affordable price, and in only a few years time, it would fulfill our need and allow us to retire the mirages.

*On a tonnage basis, 81 Tornados which can carry 9000 kg each, would match the entire PAF Mirage 3/5 fleet of 180 aircraft which can carry 4000 kg each. For reference, each JF-17 can carry a little over 3600 kg. So it would not be a stretch to retire the entire Mirage Fleet if we can acquire the Tornados.
*
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Tornado-IDS_a000460001.aspx
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Mirage-III_a000733001.aspx
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/FC-1_a000302001.aspx

As far as carrying special munitions, if the F-16s can be modified to carry them, then the Tornado can be adapted one way or another to carry them.

The Tornado is maintenance intensive, but as Oscar points out, the JH-7 is also Maintenance intensive. The JH-7 is also a type the PAF has not flown much in if at all, requiring 5 years (per Oscar) to become through familiar with. On the other hand, PAF probably has extensive knowledge operating the RSAF Tornados on behalf of Saudi Arabia over the last 30 years.

Ultimately it comes down to the weapons the PAF will have access to for its strike Aircraft. If the Tornados can be bought at a reasonable price and PAF can buy the Storm Shadow and other advanced munitions, it would be worth it. At the very least, If the PAF can integrate its own domestic munitions and Turkish Munitions, it would still be worth it. If not, the PAF should just get the J-10CE; which can carry 8000 kg or further develop the JH-7A, with china, which can currently carry around 6500 kg.

Source: http://www.deagel.com/

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> Once India found out---pak had no funds for aircraft---and no potent aircraft in service---it attitude towards pakistan became openly confrontational---.


Indeed they do believe in conjectures!!! Hopefully, PAF will go on generating more of them at a regular interval...

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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> The Tornado is maintenance intensive, but as Oscar points out, the JH-7 is also Maintenance intensive. The JH-7 is also a type the PAF has not flown much in if at all, requiring 5 years (per Oscar) to become through familiar with. On the other hand, PAF probably has extensive knowledge operating the RSAF Tornados on behalf of Saudi Arabia over the last 30 years.
> 
> Ultimately it comes down to the weapons the PAF will have access to for its strike Aircraft. If the Tornados can be bought at a reasonable price and PAF can buy the Storm Shadow and other advanced munitions, it would be worth it. At the very least, If the PAF can integrate its own domestic munitions and Turkish Munitions, it would still be worth it. If not, the PAF should just get the J-10CE; which can carry 8000 kg or further develop the JH-7A, with china, which can currently carry around 6500 kg.
> 
> Source: http://www.deagel.com/


 

Hi,

Please kindly give me credit for bring this up almost a 1 1/2 decade ago when every pakistani fanboy was clueless to what integration and getting a pilot used to an aircraft means---. I am the originator of this information to the pakistanis who believed that their pilot could jump into an aircraft and run circles against the enemy---.

Next----

The british equipment is one of the worst when it comes to quality and longevity---I don't think that you knew that either---.

3rd thing---if worked out properly---the chinese equipment could be had on a soft loan / forgiven loan---.

Next---the aesa radar that you could get for the JH7A would be a massive machine---.

Basically---there is no other aircraft in the industry---that pakistan can get what the JH7A can do---.

A missile truck JH7A with about 8 PL15 riding point alongwith 3 JH7A's with 2 CM400AKG's each or with 2 ALCM Baburs each---hooked up with a massive 1500TR module aesa radar and with the support of the awacs flying low over the ocean---popping up at the last minute and un-leashing all the ALCM's at the target from a safer distance and then turning tail---.

Any interceptors would face the LR PL15's---.

What india fears the most is a long range heavy strike aircraft in the Paf's arsenal that can fly low and target indian coastal belt and naval flotilla---.

If Paf gets the JH7A's---indian navy would get a heart attack---. The strength and power of its large naval frigates would be diminished---. They would be at the mercy of the LR AShM missiles---and the ship's missiles would not reach out to the pakistan aircraft---.

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## Signalian

FuturePAF said:


> Sanctions are definitely a concern, which is why a healthy amount of spares and weapons would have to be bought as part of the deal. A through evaluation would have to be made as to the viability of a Tornado force for the PAF, but on the surface level, the Tornado is ideal per capabilities while potentially being affordable on the front end. Long term it may face the whims of the European and American defense establishments, but the PAF has managed to operate the F-16 over these past 30 years. Worst case, we cannibalize the Tornados and operate them like the Iranians operate their Tomcats. If we can get a decent platform at an affordable price, and in only a few years time, it would fulfill our need and allow us to retire the mirages.
> 
> *On a tonnage basis, 81 Tornados which can carry 9000 kg each, would match the entire PAF Mirage 3/5 fleet of 180 aircraft which can carry 4000 kg each. For reference, each JF-17 can carry a little over 3600 kg. So it would not be a stretch to retire the entire Mirage Fleet if we can acquire the Tornados.
> *
> http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Tornado-IDS_a000460001.aspx
> http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Mirage-III_a000733001.aspx
> http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/FC-1_a000302001.aspx
> 
> As far as carrying special munitions, if the F-16s can be modified to carry them, then the Tornado can be adapted one way or another to carry them.
> 
> The Tornado is maintenance intensive, but as Oscar points out, the JH-7 is also Maintenance intensive. The JH-7 is also a type the PAF has not flown much in if at all, requiring 5 years (per Oscar) to become through familiar with. On the other hand, PAF probably has extensive knowledge operating the RSAF Tornados on behalf of Saudi Arabia over the last 30 years.
> 
> Ultimately it comes down to the weapons the PAF will have access to for its strike Aircraft. If the Tornados can be bought at a reasonable price and PAF can buy the Storm Shadow and other advanced munitions, it would be worth it. At the very least, If the PAF can integrate its own domestic munitions and Turkish Munitions, it would still be worth it. If not, the PAF should just get the J-10CE; which can carry 8000 kg or further develop the JH-7A, with china, which can currently carry around 6500 kg.
> 
> Source: http://www.deagel.com/


I noticed 3 points regarding PAF:
1. PAF is not buying old generation (4 or less) second hand aircraft's which are not flown already in inventory (e.g Mirage 2000, JH-7)
2. PAF is buying aircrafts which it also had once brand new decades ago (Mirage 3/5 and F-16)
3. PAF is increasing numbers of older aircrafts in inventory (Mirage 3/5 and F-16)

The 1st point makes me think that PAF will induct a newer aircraft(4.5 gen or 5 gen) as an addition to its inventory. Lastly there is no mention of J-10 acquisition by PAF officials probably because JF-17 Block III comes close to it in some factors while other factors are covered by F-16.

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## randomradio

denel said:


> True. Still the option to pursue M2K remains viable.



India won't let that happen. You know that.



MastanKhan said:


> Once India found out---pak had no funds for aircraft---and no potent aircraft in service---it attitude towards pakistan became openly confrontational---.



So nothing to do with Kargil War, 2002 terror attacks, Mumbai attacks etc? We almost went to war 4 times the last decade, and it had nothing to do with the state of the PAF.



> Paf had assumed that the threat of war was gone and peace was about to be made---and thus the money spent on the F16's would be a wastage---.



No such condition existed at any time in the 2000s. No clue what has made you assume this.



Signalian said:


> The 1st point makes me think that PAF will induct a newer aircraft(4.5 gen or 5 gen) as an addition to its inventory.



If it's a Western import, then Gripen E would be the best bet.

But I think PAF is going to become a mini-PLAAF after the 2030s.


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## Amigator

randomradio said:


> But I think PAF is going to become a mini-PLAAF after the 2030s.


Just Like IAF (mini Russian air force with bad maintenance)

You are right if we didn't decided at least one western or Russian equipment till 2020. But hopefully either western avionics will be inducted in JF-17 or another platform will be inducted in PAF.

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## denel

randomradio said:


> India won't let that happen. You know that.
> 
> 
> 
> So nothing to do with Kargil War, 2002 terror attacks, Mumbai attacks etc? We almost went to war 4 times the last decade, and it had nothing to do with the state of the PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> No such condition existed at any time in the 2000s. No clue what has made you assume this.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's a Western import, then Gripen E would be the best bet.
> 
> But I think PAF is going to become a mini-PLAAF after the 2030s.


why not? they dont monopoly on m2k sales.

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## The Accountant

denel said:


> why not? they dont monopoly on m2k sales.


Coz Indians will put ecnomic and financial sanctions on France if they allow resale of MK2 to Pakistan ... lolz

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## denel

The Accountant said:


> Coz Indians will put ecnomic and financial sanctions on France if they allow resale of MK2 to Pakistan ... lolz


oh really? i doubt it. french will sleep with anyone if the price is right. india needs france not vice versa.

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## The Accountant

denel said:


> oh really? i doubt it. french will sleep with anyone if the price is right. india needs france not vice versa.


but Indians here think that the world revolves around them and they have become a super-power ...

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## araz

denel said:


> oh really? i doubt it. french will sleep with anyone if the price is right. india needs france not vice versa.


I think sides are being drawn in Geopolitics. The french are definitely in the Indian camp along with the US, China is Pak camp, while The red bear is being cajoled into joining the latter but is trying to bait both sides to see where it can leverage its influence more. Pak is trying its best at keeping the Italian door open as an ingress point in the EU. However money talks and we dont have any! 
The M2K saga has come to an end and it is safe to say we will not see this fighter in PAF colours. I personally think PAF is completely invested in Block 3 and will evaluate the situation after its induction. Multiple options are there but we need to see which one suits us best. The 5th gen conundrum will also crystallize around this time so a decision will be made around 2020/21.
A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> I think sides are being drawn in Geopolitics. The french are definitely in the Indian camp along with the US, China is Pak camp, while The red bear is being cajoled into joining the latter but is trying to bait both sides to see where it can leverage its influence more. Pak is trying its best at keeping the Italian door open as an ingress point in the EU. However money talks and we dont have any!
> The M2K saga has come to an end and it is safe to say we will not see this fighter in PAF colours. I personally think PAF is completely invested in Block 3 and will evaluate the situation after its induction. Multiple options are there but we need to see which one suits us best. The 5th gen conundrum will also crystallize around this time so a decision will be made around 2020/21.
> A


I see option of used typhoons via italy more likely than mirage20000..seems french have completely gave up Pakistani market

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> I see option of used typhoons via italy more likely than mirage20000..seems french have completely gave up Pakistani market


Agreed but everything at the moment is up for grabs and can change at a moments notice. Wait till 2021 though and things will clearify.
A

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## denel

araz said:


> I think sides are being drawn in Geopolitics. The french are definitely in the Indian camp along with the US, China is Pak camp, while The red bear is being cajoled into joining the latter but is trying to bait both sides to see where it can leverage its influence more. Pak is trying its best at keeping the Italian door open as an ingress point in the EU. However money talks and we dont have any!
> The M2K saga has come to an end and it is safe to say we will not see this fighter in PAF colours. I personally think PAF is completely invested in Block 3 and will evaluate the situation after its induction. Multiple options are there but we need to see which one suits us best. The 5th gen conundrum will also crystallize around this time so a decision will be made around 2020/21.
> A


i would argue they need to see past blk3 to blk4 as well. Blk3 is mid-cycle maturity; i would suggest there are at least 3 more to follow thereafter.

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## denel

araz said:


> I think sides are being drawn in Geopolitics. The french are definitely in the Indian camp along with the US, China is Pak camp, while The red bear is being cajoled into joining the latter but is trying to bait both sides to see where it can leverage its influence more. Pak is trying its best at keeping the Italian door open as an ingress point in the EU. However money talks and we dont have any!
> The M2K saga has come to an end and it is safe to say we will not see this fighter in PAF colours. I personally think PAF is completely invested in Block 3 and will evaluate the situation after its induction. Multiple options are there but we need to see which one suits us best. The 5th gen conundrum will also crystallize around this time so a decision will be made around 2020/21.
> A


absolutely. my concern is as follows. if M3/5 continue to be around for a strategic avenue for next 15yrs - then why not take into account a move towards cheetah plus also get 9k50 engines instead if 9c;atlas had the licence manufacturing rights to it as well.

The other option which people will start to shout at me - would be getting newer airframes from IAI.

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## The Accountant

denel said:


> absolutely. my concern is as follows. if M3/5 continue to be around for a strategic avenue for next 15yrs - then why not take into account a move towards cheetah plus also get 9k50 engines instead if 9c;atlas had the licence manufacturing rights to it as well.
> 
> The other option which people will start to shout at me - would be getting newer airframes from IAI.


I dont think mirrage 3/5 are going to stay for 15 years ... strike by thunders on feb 27th prooved that thunder r good strike fighters ... i think a delivery mechanisim must be under developed around thunder to be used for strategic role ...

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## Pakistani Fighter

denel said:


> i would argue they need to see past blk3 to blk4 as well. Blk3 is mid-cycle maturity; i would suggest there are at least 3 more to follow thereafter.





denel said:


> i would argue they need to see past blk3 to blk4 as well. Blk3 is mid-cycle maturity; i would suggest there are at least 3 more to follow thereafter.


Block IV shud be final. Concentration shud be given on 5th gen

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## denel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Block IV shud be final. Concentration shud be given on 5th gen


Nope; you are not seeing that this will be around for next 30 yrs. you need to continue to evolve. There is a lot of room. 5th gen is a hype in my opinion; the bread and butter will remain jf-17s.

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## SipahSalar

Block 3 with AESA and HOBS. Block 4 with new engine and conformal fuel tanks.

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## MIRauf

denel is right, if AZM is high end project then 4.5 Gen need to exist till 6th Gen gets incorporated. In this regards the JF-17 will have to evolve and continue to evolve until the point where cost of JF-17 and 5 Gen is relatively close.

If JF-17 follows same path as JAS-39 then expect to see slightly redefined main body to incorporate better load management on main fuselage. Waiting on AVIC/PAC to copy the JAS-39 NG weapon pylons.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please kindly give me credit for bring this up almost a 1 1/2 decade ago when every pakistani fanboy was clueless to what integration and getting a pilot used to an aircraft means---. I am the originator of this information to the pakistanis who believed that their pilot could jump into an aircraft and run circles against the enemy---.
> 
> Next----
> 
> The british equipment is one of the worst when it comes to quality and longevity---I don't think that you knew that either---.
> 
> 3rd thing---if worked out properly---the chinese equipment could be had on a soft loan / forgiven loan---.
> 
> Next---the aesa radar that you could get for the JH7A would be a massive machine---.
> 
> Basically---there is no other aircraft in the industry---that pakistan can get what the JH7A can do---.
> 
> A missile truck JH7A with about 8 PL15 riding point alongwith 3 JH7A's with 2 CM400AKG's each or with 2 ALCM Baburs each---hooked up with a massive 1500TR module aesa radar and with the support of the awacs flying low over the ocean---popping up at the last minute and un-leashing all the ALCM's at the target from a safer distance and then turning tail---.
> 
> Any interceptors would face the LR PL15's---.
> 
> What india fears the most is a long range heavy strike aircraft in the Paf's arsenal that can fly low and target indian coastal belt and naval flotilla---.
> 
> If Paf gets the JH7A's---indian navy would get a heart attack---. The strength and power of its large naval frigates would be diminished---. They would be at the mercy of the LR AShM missiles---and the ship's missiles would not reach out to the pakistan aircraft---.



First Point
I was quoting Oscar's specific estimation, but indeed you have brought up similar views, and I have agreed with you on them. Yes, you should be credited with advocating the merits on the JH-7A, if not the originator of the view (I will take your word on in), a vocal proponent nonetheless.

Second Point
You are correct, I am not as familiar with the maintenance record of British origin aircraft. The reason I argued for the Tornado was the potential availability of the air frames, at potentially affordable acquisition prices, with modern capabilities, and in a short period of time, presuming the PAF pilots have years of experience on them. I know that's a lot of IFs, hence the caveat that the PAF should study the Tornados for their suitability per their experience with it, if any. Another HUGE caveat is the supply of weapons to arms said Tornados. Without access to smart munitions, these planes would be nothing more than fancy iron bombs platforms.

Therefore at the end of my post, I advocated either the J-10Ce which can carry 8000kg or the JH-7A which can carry 6500kg per Deagel.com

Third Point
Yes, on the acquisition of the JH-7A, it can be done with a lot more flexibility. Not only in terms of the financing but the equipment, and the variety of munitions it can carry. Upgrading the Design, engines, and avionics can all be done if we are requesting a 1500 T/R AESA radar, to match those of the Tornado, and finally scrap the Mirages. We could also buy brand new aircraft that would last 30 years with an increase use of composites and some reshaping to minimize stress on the air frame. You are correct, there is no other aircraft the PAF can acquire with so much potential, at such little cost, from a trusted ally.

Fourth Point
Indeed the JH-7A could change the way India operates in the Arabian Sea, if not at its land bases close to the border and further in land. Tornados regularly flew stable at 600 knots under 100 feet off the deck. The new WS-19 engines, if they could super-cruise; could potentially push that record and then some. Delhi is less than 400 km from the border. A supersonic flyover alone, on the deck, would rattle the Indians to their bones, akin to the psychological effect of the Osirak raid near Baghdad.

Only Caveat
For as good as the JH-7A is; it is still primarily designed as a strike platform. We need to acquire the J-10CE in equal numbers to provide adequate escort protection, for long range missions. (We can no longer trust on the F-16, and the JF-17 for all its accolades, is a short-legged defensive fighter) We need to be able to go offensive if we are to make a paradigm shift in regional dynamics. The PAF can not afford to absorb attacks when the danger is eminent. The PAF needs to think more like the IDF-AF. BUT, this can only be possible once we have secured a stable economy, and these two platforms. I know that's not what you want to hear, but we need to fight the inner demons before we can face the external ones.

I know you were not pleased with the PAF during the February Skirmish, but not getting derailed in rebuilding the Economy was a more important requirement, so that long term we are able to properly defend ourselves.

*Hats off to you Sir. I hope the PAF takes your advice and goes for the JH-7A (as well as the J-10CE).*



Signalian said:


> I noticed 3 points regarding PAF:
> 1. PAF is not buying old generation (4 or less) second hand aircraft's which are not flown already in inventory (e.g Mirage 2000, JH-7)
> 2. PAF is buying aircrafts which it also had once brand new decades ago (Mirage 3/5 and F-16)
> 3. PAF is increasing numbers of older aircrafts in inventory (Mirage 3/5 and F-16)
> 
> The 1st point makes me think that PAF will induct a newer aircraft(4.5 gen or 5 gen) as an addition to its inventory. Lastly there is no mention of J-10 acquisition by PAF officials probably because JF-17 Block III comes close to it in some factors while other factors are covered by F-16.



In the short term, acquiring types the PAF operates buys them more time with a type they have already sunk pilot training, infrastructure, maintenance, and all other kinds of familiarity, but long term, once the economic crisis passes, they need to recapitalize the force with capabilities adequate enough to meet the threat.

The threat is not only conventional but political. Pakistan's ties with the west could change on a whim, and that is not a long term solution to a constant threat from India. Hence acquiring more F-16s, unless for free or nearly free are not worth it, as PAF decided when it had the choice. The same goes for the Mirage. The PAF knows what it wants if it had the budget. The military needs to help root out any corruption preventing the nation from getting its economy back on track, the enemies within are worse then those on the outside.

The Block III is great in all capabilities, but is limited by short range, a limited payload, and generally smaller sensors. the doctrine dictates the platforms we need, and the PAF needs to think more Offensive if its to change the regional dynamics, and had an adequate defense going forwards. the Enemy is getting bolder, and need to know the PAF can counter them conventionally.

Hence the need to get the J-10CE, and help modernize and acquire the JH-7A; at least 68 aircraft each (4 full squadrons each), along with the last 50 JF-17 Block IIIs would allow the PAF to retire most of the Mirages and most of the F-7s. We would need to still field the last remnants of the Mirages and F-7s, if we intent to keep our numbers up, retiring them once we induct Project AZM/5th Gen Fighter. Hence the modest upgrades of the youngest Mirage air-frames would allow the force to have modern capabilities at all levels. Maybe 50 Mirages, and 30 twin seat F-7PGs for Pilot training.

An Order of battle by 2030 would be as follows:
76 F-16s
68 JH-7A (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
68 J-10CE (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
149 JF-17 (Last Three Squadrons of JF-17s could be build and operational by 2024)
and the last 80 Mirages and F-7s to be replaced when we get 5 Squadrons of 5th gen jets
(50 Mirages could be upgraded over the next 3-5 years, and all fully operational by 2024)

Should more F-16s become available, we could scale back Mirage upgrades and speed up retirement of the F-7s, and if even more F-16s come in retire the mirages all together.
We need to get 4 Squadrons of J-10CEs and 4 Squadrons of JH-7As.

P.S. When Upgrading the JH-7A Design; studying the research on future medium supersonic bombers will have to be looked at, so that what we field in the mid 2020s is still potent by 2050. Pakistan could work with the Chinese on a "Medium Range Semi-Stealthy Tactical Bomber"; a replacement for the JH-7A. Powered by two Ws-19 Engines; If we are looking for 60-80 Aircraft, and the Chinese plan to replace their JH-7/Jh-7A fleet of 270; a 350 aircraft program could get top priority and be fielded by middle of the next decade; especially that the WS-19 engines are showing progress.

From *Janes* for your contemplation pleasure:
https://www.janes.com/article/85813/china-may-be-developing-first-two-seat-stealth-combat-aircraft






Blend the Knowledge gained from the J-20 with the designs from the American ATF program. Here is one particularly interesting design; similar to the JH-7 and the Tornado; but a delta wing. Considering they will be flying low to the ground or low over the sea; weapons hanging under the wings would not raise the RCS much, even if Awacs aircraft are around.

















Source:https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/The_General_Dynamics_ATF_proposal/5-1811184/

Wings with this shape would have lower wing loading and therefore a lower stalling speed and allow a better sustained turn performance (to better escape enemy defenses). A wing of this shape would allow the plane to be relatively smaller but still have decent range, and fly-by-wire technology would allow it to fly nap of the earth low level flying to avoid detection. The F-16XL also showed the wing shape made for a smoother ride at low altitude. The F-16Xl failed to secure a production contract because it could not super-cruise, a need to keep its IR signature low. Luckily the WS-19 is under-development, and as the engine for the PLANAF carrier force; super-cruise is a program goal. The Research from the F-16XL, under NASA, showed how to eliminate laminar flow and achieve super-cruise with the engine technology at the time. Hence the validity of this design for the long range strike role was vindicated. 

Considering this design came from General Dynamics; this is a stealthier derivative of the F-16XL; which was planned as a deep strike platform. The payload alone speaks for itself.

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## randomradio

denel said:


> why not? they dont monopoly on m2k sales.



Any resale of the M2K will obviously require French permission. And you can expect India to pressure France not to go through with the sale to Pak.


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## Imran Khan

randomradio said:


> Any resale of the M2K will obviously require French permission. And you can expect India to pressure France not to go through with the sale to Pak.


as indian pressure as RD-93 ????

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## randomradio

FuturePAF said:


> An Order of battle by 2030 would be as follows:
> 76 F-16s
> 68 JH-7A (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
> 68 J-10CE (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
> 149 JF-17 (Last Three Squadrons of JF-17s could be build and operational by 2024)
> and the last 80 Mirages and F-7s to be replaced when we get 5 Squadrons of 5th gen jets
> (50 Mirages could be upgraded over the next 3-5 years, and all fully operational by 2024)



That's basically 190 jets in a short span of 8 years. That's what the IAF is trying to do within the same time period, 123 Tejas and 72 Rafales. So you're gonna have to allocate a decent budget for that fleet.



Imran Khan said:


> as indian pressure as RD-93 ????



The politics behind this sale is very different. India would much rather have the JF-17 powered by an imported RD-93 than a domestically produced WS-13.

The M2K sale would be a much different story. Remember the F-16s?


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## Imran Khan

randomradio said:


> That's basically 190 jets in a short span of 8 years. That's what the IAF is trying to do within the same time period, 123 Tejas and 72 Rafales. So you're gonna have to allocate a decent budget for that fleet.
> 
> 
> 
> The politics behind this sale is very different. India would much rather have the JF-17 powered by an imported RD-93 than a domestically produced WS-13.
> 
> The M2K sale would be a much different story. Remember the F-16s?


what f-16 ? US stopped CSF and we did not want to pay them . india was only self claiming victory . in fact all CSF projects went down after US stopped CSF .you guys have wired theories . paksitan is free to buy weapons but when its come to AID old used weapons terms are always not good . if paksitan took hard cash and go to france they can buy whatever .



randomradio said:


> That's basically 190 jets in a short span of 8 years. That's what the IAF is trying to do within the same time period, 123 Tejas and 72 Rafales. So you're gonna have to allocate a decent budget for that fleet.
> 
> 
> 
> The politics behind this sale is very different. India would much rather have the JF-17 powered by an imported RD-93 than a domestically produced WS-13.
> 
> The M2K sale would be a much different story. Remember the F-16s?


since 2001 MMRCA not a single rafale come to india . since 1984 in last 33 years not a single full squadron of LCA entered service . how can you sure about future 10 years ?

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## randomradio

Imran Khan said:


> what f-16 ? US stopped CSF and we did not want to pay them . india was only self claiming victory . in fact all CSF projects went down after US stopped CSF .you guys have wired theories . paksitan is free to buy weapons but when its come to AID old used weapons terms are always not good . if paksitan took hard cash and go to france they can buy whatever .



India pressured the withdrawal of using aid to pay for military equipment. The CSF didn't simply dry up on its own.



> since 2001 MMRCA not a single rafale come to india . since 1984 in last 33 years not a single full squadron of LCA entered service . how can you sure about future 10 years ?



Development and bureaucracy are unpredictable, but production is predictable.


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## Imran Khan

randomradio said:


> India pressured the withdrawal of using aid to pay for military equipment. The CSF didn't simply dry up on its own.
> 
> 
> 
> Development and bureaucracy are unpredictable, but production is predictable.


CSF dry up when Pakistan stop cooperation with USA in Afghanistan after US blamed Pakistan for lost of war and start windrow from afghanistan .indians have wired thoughts craters on moon are also because modi farts .

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## randomradio

Imran Khan said:


> CSF dry up when Pakistan stop cooperation with USA in Afghanistan after US blamed Pakistan for lost of war and start windrow from afghanistan .indians have wired thoughts craters on moon are also because modi farts .



Whatchu talking about? Pakistan continued to receive quite a bit through aid, including new hardware. Only F-16s took a hit. The US has started cutting aid only since last year, whereas the F-16 story is from 2016.

Nevertheless, India can stop M2K supplies to Pak. France and India have recently upgraded their defence cooperation after all, because France wants Indian help in protecting their overseas territories in IOR and the Pacific.


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## araz

The Accountant said:


> I dont think mirrage 3/5 are going to stay for 15 years ... strike by thunders on feb 27th prooved that thunder r good strike fighters ... i think a delivery mechanisim must be under developed around thunder to be used for strategic role ...


The strike in dhotilands was with Mirages with JFTs providing escorts if my info is correct.
A

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## Shabi1

The ones that would be retired last should be updated whenever they receive their next overhauls. But these primarily are strike platforms so only need the systems upgrades specializing for this role, no need for multi role or air superiority specific systems as JF-17s are the new workhorses.

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## Imran Khan

randomradio said:


> Whatchu talking about? Pakistan continued to receive quite a bit through aid, including new hardware. Only F-16s took a hit. The US has started cutting aid only since last year, whereas the F-16 story is from 2016.
> 
> Nevertheless, India can stop M2K supplies to Pak. France and India have recently upgraded their defence cooperation after all, because France wants Indian help in protecting their overseas territories in IOR and the Pacific.


India can do jack arse

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## The Accountant

araz said:


> The strike in dhotilands was with Mirages with JFTs providing escorts if my info is correct.
> A


On all the six locations ? I doubt that ... why would we miss a chance to check thunder capabilities in realistic world ?

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## araz

The Accountant said:


> On all the six locations ? I doubt that ... why would we miss a chance to check thunder capabilities in realistic world ?


SOWs can currently only be carried by M3/5s.
A

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## The Accountant

araz said:


> SOWs can currently only be carried by M3/5s.
> A


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-...range-smart-weapon-from-jf-17-thunder.607541/

The test was public in march ...

Rek is also part of thunder armament


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## Pakistani Fighter

The Accountant said:


> On all the six locations ? I doubt that ... why would we miss a chance to check thunder capabilities in realistic world ?


I asked a PAF pilot. He said Mirage were main Strike packages. F 16s were main escorts. JF 17 kinda did both of them

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> i would argue they need to see past blk3 to blk4 as well. Blk3 is mid-cycle maturity; i would suggest there are at least 3 more to follow thereafter.


BLK-4 maybe can spin into JF18 that is larger than JF 17 with conformal fuel tanks and more powerful engine, something along F16 in size, dimension and capabilities.

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> BLK-4 maybe can spin into JF18 that is larger than JF 17 with conformal fuel tanks and more powerful engine, something along F16 in size, dimension and capabilities.


Absolutely. Many of our members have a tendency to take the status quo and live with it; that is not the case evolution is a mandatory aspect of R&D; look at Mirages - had these people taken on the challenge and embarked on parallel upgrade project; it would not only have translated into local Cheetahs but tonnes of other M3/5 users who would have signed on for similar convergence program; that funds could have fueled over into other works. I just shake my head when i write this - just dismay. I hope jf-17 does not become a victim of that short sightedness.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Absolutely. Many of our members have a tendency to take the status quo and live with it; that is not the case evolution is a mandatory aspect of R&D; look at Mirages - had these people taken on the challenge and embarked on parallel upgrade project; it would not only have translated into local Cheetahs but tonnes of other M3/5 users who would have signed on for similar convergence program; that funds could have fueled over into other works. I just shake my head when i write this - just dismay. I hope jf-17 does not become a victim of that short sightedness.


No doubt, the shortsighted thinking and vision that led to passing up the opportunity on Cheetah is regrettable.

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## MystryMan

denel said:


> absolutely. my concern is as follows. if M3/5 continue to be around for a strategic avenue for next 15yrs - then why not take into account a move towards cheetah plus also get 9k50 engines instead if 9c;atlas had the licence manufacturing rights to it as well.
> 
> The other option which people will start to shout at me - would be getting newer airframes from IAI.


IS it still possible to get Cheetah variant. Are there any in storage? If existing airframes are not available, will it be cost prohibitive to revive/buy its production line?


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## denel

MystryMan said:


> IS it still possible to get Cheetah variant. Are there any in storage? If existing airframes are not available, will it be cost prohibitive to revive/buy its production line?


It is still possible but it comes up to the question of ROI - If the intent is just for another 10 yrs or build a strategic deep strike off the Mirage 3 - then the concept of_ *Super Cheetah*_ (Cheetah + RD93/33) remains viable. Atlas did have entire rigs for building airframes; the blue prints are already at Kamra - I am wondering why were the Chengdu team not asked to assist in fabricating new airframes with newer materials - those will be much better vs trying to use frames which are already near exhaustion.

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## TheTallGuy

What Does Atlas Cheetah C Had/have which Pakistan ROSE I Mirages dont have ?? 

I am tired of cheetah cheetah none sense...Pakistan ROSE I Mirage was and is better then cheetah C avionics wise.

One should know about Joint collaboration between Israel & South Africa Atlas Cheetah had Elta Radar and Cockpit avionics of IAI Lavi. Atlas Cheetah Had IAI Kfir C2 Wings and strakes..Atlas Cheetah was equipped with (Derby) R-Darter and S-Darter(Python Mk 3) except for HMS which was introduced first time by South Africa and U-Darter 60 degree off bore-sight version. nothing else.

Now when PAF was collaborating with South Africa in 90s south africa was only able to provide Raptor I and Raptor 2. thats it South Africans were also afraid off Sanctions.

PAF ROSE 1 Mirages have same or Better GRIFO M3 Radar and equal Level of avionics as cheetah. South African couldn`t provide the needed missiles R-Darter at that time (Israel Export Controls) did not let us have any thing but PAF prevailed. Got The Mirage 3 ROSE I working just fine and dandy...

SO please we dont need to update Mirages to Cheetah C standard they are already better then Cheetah C.

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## denel

TheTallGuy said:


> What Does Atlas Cheetah C Had/have which Pakistan ROSE I Mirages dont have ??
> 
> I am tired of cheetah cheetah none sense...Pakistan ROSE I Mirage was and is better then cheetah C avionics wise.
> 
> One should know about Joint collaboration between Israel & South Africa Atlas Cheetah had Elta Radar and Cockpit avionics of IAI Lavi. Atlas Cheetah Had IAI Kfir C2 Wings and strakes..Atlas Cheetah was equipped with (Derby) R-Darter and S-Darter(Python Mk 3) except for HMS which was introduced first time by South Africa and U-Darter 60 degree off bore-sight version. nothing else.
> 
> Now when PAF was collaborating with South Africa in 90s south africa was only able to provide Raptor I and Raptor 2. thats it South Africans were also afraid off Sanctions.
> 
> PAF ROSE 1 Mirages have same or Better GRIFO M3 Radar and equal Level of avionics as cheetah. South African couldn`t provide the needed missiles R-Darter at that time (Israel Export Controls) did not let us have any thing but PAF prevailed. Got The Mirage 3 ROSE I working just fine and dandy...
> 
> SO please we dont need to update Mirages to Cheetah C standard they are already better then Cheetah C.


new airframes, new materials, engines 9k50 etc. please read up on the specs. HMS had been introduced in the 70s's on original ZAF M3s. Cheetah was a complete re-worked aircraft which ROSE is not - it is just an upgrade on existing frame and engines.

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## MystryMan

denel said:


> It is still possible but it comes up to the question of ROI - If the intent is just for another 10 yrs or build a strategic deep strike off the Mirage 3 - then the concept of_ *Super Cheetah*_ (Cheetah + RD93/33) remains viable. Atlas did have entire rigs for building airframes; the blue prints are already at Kamra - I am wondering why were the Chengdu team not asked to assist in fabricating new airframes with newer materials - those will be much better vs trying to use frames which are already near exhaustion.


I asked this question because, if PAF only has M3/M5 for strike missions and qualified with SOW, and it doesn't see J-10 and JH-7 as bringing anything new to the table, then why not acquire something which is based on Mirage? 

ROI means return on investment?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirages are to us as B52s are to the USAF. Our bomb trucks have speed,rigid air frames,good numbers and are capable of further modifications. I would love to see a powerful engines in them to enhance their payload and speed. These deltas have no comparison in deep strike and interdiction roles and we have mastered them.

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## denel

MystryMan said:


> I asked this question because, if PAF only has M3/M5 for strike missions and qualified with SOW, and it doesn't see J-10 and JH-7 as bringing anything new to the table, then why not acquire something which is based on Mirage?
> 
> ROI means return on investment?


Yes, ROI is correct. The biggest issue remains airframe and engines; 9k50 is the right way to go and now RD-93/33 are around, this has been done already on a cheetah prototype. Far better range can be had. Again vs trying to salvage 3rd rated used aircraft airframes, why not start it internally - a lot of time spent uselessly given that it appears clear M3/5s are going nowhere; why not move them to higher plain in overall design and stability plus save pilots lives.

We had the advantages of having F1AZs against which to borrow a lot of inputs when reworking Cheetah.

If the cost of getting entire machinary to build airframes/alloy fabrication (even if Chengdu can supply) should be very minimal to get the entire program done in parallel with token funds vs wasting funds buying spare planes for parts. It has been done and it can be done; just needs foresight.
Just my 2cents.

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## TheTallGuy

denel said:


> new airframes, new materials, engines 9k50 etc. please read up on the specs. HMS had been introduced in the 70s's on original ZAF M3s. Cheetah was a complete re-worked aircraft which ROSE is not - it is just an upgrade on existing frame and engines.



with all due respect i tried to put emphasis on the capability of avionics in my previous post and duly acknowledged the fact that South Africa was first to develop/tested and operationaly deployed HMS. 

My point was that Atlas Cheetah was not exportable as whole - i hope you are getting my point its basic items of upgrades were all from Israel. we make GRIFO Radars now can we export them NO!

Whole avionics package was developed by Israel Radar/HUD and princepal weapons package. SA could not have offered Pakistan Cheetah C upgrade even if they wanted too.

ATar9K50 yes built and Manufactured by SA but can it be exported?

Pakistan Took the same route via different vendor and get the best bang for a buck! which we could afford.

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> SOWs can currently only be carried by M3/5s.
> A


 to be specific thunder does carry SOW (REK) but we dont know whether it carries the longer range H4s

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## TheTallGuy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sir---please---don't insult our professional members---. Regular members are dime a dozen---capable professionals are rare---.
> 
> If you do not know about the Cheetah upgrade---then please dig in on google search and learn---.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Cheetah



Dear Mastan Khan Sb, I am no sir!

I have not insulted any body nor i have intention to do so...you have missed the point completely that i was trying to make in my Post in context of 1990-2000 time period.

Atlas Cheetah C has what? IAI Kfir Wings and Strakes, License Produced Atar 9K50 Engine(which you may know we operate with Mirage 5PA2/PA3 Variant) Radar is JC from Elta IAI Lavi (Or Par with APG66 of legacy F16A/B) Hud & Avionics (Again IAI Lavi) what weapons it carried R-Darter which is Derby, S-Darter which is Pyhton Mk 3.

If you change the engine put J79-GE-19 it becomes IAI Kfir C10 or CE

Now Ask South Africans please export us in 1992 uptill 2017 Atlas Cheetah C. the answer is they cant all the sub systems have export control. what they could export us we got it...from MUPSOW to RAPTOR(all versions even the Raptor III) 

what amazes me is why we think PAF is dumb?

Just look what we Got the Radar (GRIFO M3 on par with APG66) HUD & Avionics (Europe) and get the best bang out the buck spent. Airframe modification and engine modification was to expensive for us. 

I again ask you can the whole package of Atlas Cheetah C be exported to Pakistan even Now?

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## ziaulislam

TheTallGuy said:


> Dear Mastan Khan Sb, I am no sir!
> 
> I have not insulted any body nor i have intention to do so...you have missed the point completely that i was trying to make in my Post in context of 1990-2000 time period.
> 
> Atlas Cheetah C has what? IAI Kfir Wings and Strakes, License Produced Atar 9K50 Engine(which you may know we operate with Mirage 5PA2/PA3 Variant) Radar is JC from Elta IAI Lavi (Or Par with APG66 of legacy F16A/B) Hud & Avionics (Again IAI Lavi) what weapons it carried R-Darter which is Derby, S-Darter which is Pyhton Mk 3.
> 
> If you change the engine put J79-GE-19 it becomes IAI Kfir C10 or CE
> 
> Now Ask South Africans please export us in 1992 uptill 2017 Atlas Cheetah C. the answer is they cant all the sub systems have export control. what they could export us we got it...from MUPSOW to RAPTOR(all versions even the Raptor III)
> 
> what amazes me is why we think PAF is dumb?
> 
> Just look what we Got the Radar (GRIFO M3 on par with APG66) HUD & Avionics (Europe) and get the best bang out the buck spent. Airframe modification and engine modification was to expensive for us.
> 
> I again ask you can the whole package of Atlas Cheetah C be exported to Pakistan even Now?


Rapto III? When did we got that ?

It would be interstng whether PAF thinks sd10 is enough or will go and seek JV with southafrica or Turkey for an alternative

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## denel

TheTallGuy said:


> Dear Mastan Khan Sb, I am no sir!
> 
> I have not insulted any body nor i have intention to do so...you have missed the point completely that i was trying to make in my Post in context of 1990-2000 time period.
> 
> Atlas Cheetah C has what? IAI Kfir Wings and Strakes, License Produced Atar 9K50 Engine(which you may know we operate with Mirage 5PA2/PA3 Variant) Radar is JC from Elta IAI Lavi (Or Par with APG66 of legacy F16A/B) Hud & Avionics (Again IAI Lavi) what weapons it carried R-Darter which is Derby, S-Darter which is Pyhton Mk 3.
> 
> If you change the engine put J79-GE-19 it becomes IAI Kfir C10 or CE
> 
> Now Ask South Africans please export us in 1992 uptill 2017 Atlas Cheetah C. the answer is they cant all the sub systems have export control. what they could export us we got it...from MUPSOW to RAPTOR(all versions even the Raptor III)
> 
> what amazes me is why we think PAF is dumb?
> 
> Just look what we Got the Radar (GRIFO M3 on par with APG66) HUD & Avionics (Europe) and get the best bang out the buck spent. Airframe modification and engine modification was to expensive for us.
> 
> I again ask you can the whole package of Atlas Cheetah C be exported to Pakistan even Now?


Yes it can. Entire jigs/frames can be done. 9K50 can be exported as well. It is a complete TOT package which you can selectively choose what you need e.g Grifo etc. Cheetahs were available for sale which Ecuador and other countries picked up quickly - there was no clearance required for any 3rd country. With respect to Isreal, there was very initial help but it was then supplanted by Altas personel.

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## TheTallGuy

denel said:


> Yes it can. Entire jigs/frames can be done. 9K50 can be exported as well. It is a complete TOT package which you can selectively choose what you need e.g Grifo etc. Cheetahs were available for sale which Ecuador and other countries picked up quickly - there was no clearance required for any 3rd country. With respect to Isreal, there was very initial help but it was then supplanted by Altas personel.



Respectfully, my emphases on Israeli provided Radar & Avionics and weapons package. complete airframe and engine change was not affordable for PAF. 

Small snip bit Ecuador took the cheetah C because they had already operated IAI Kfir C2 and upgraded them to IAI Kfir CE(C10). they have the defense relation/cooperation with Israel for a long time.

Can you name the radar on Atlas Cheetah C please?


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## denel

TheTallGuy said:


> Respectfully, my emphases on Israeli provided Radar & Avionics and weapons package. complete airframe and engine change was not affordable for PAF.
> 
> Small snip bit Ecuador took the cheetah C because they had already operated IAI Kfir C2 and upgraded them to IAI Kfir CE(C10). they have the defense relation/cooperation with Israel for a long time.
> 
> Can you name the radar on Atlas Cheetah C please?


Friend, airframe manufacturing is not expensive; again a matter of priorities you already have Rd-93/33 available which afford far better fuel economy; this was already tried as a prototype for both Cheetah and F1AZs. Ecuador operates a lot of EW/Comms from Grinel as most south american countries. Radar was based on 2032 with a lot of additional work done at Grinel and Reutech.

Radar and avonics can be replaced with Grifo and SAGEM; that is not a concern; Cheetah was designed to be modular in flexibility to change and upgrade.

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## syed_yusuf

I would say go for tornado And upgrade them like 6 squadrons , convert them to 4+ gen multi role fighter


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## GriffinsRule

denel said:


> Friend, airframe manufacturing is not expensive; again a matter of priorities you already have Rd-93/33 available which afford far better fuel economy; this was already tried as a prototype for both Cheetah and F1AZs. Ecuador operates a lot of EW/Comms from Grinel as most south american countries. Radar was based on 2032 with a lot of additional work done at Grinel and Reutech.
> 
> Radar and avonics can be replaced with Grifo and SAGEM; that is not a concern; Cheetah was designed to be modular in flexibility to change and upgrade.



SAAF had the route to upgrade Mirage III/V engines to the Atar 9K because they operated 32/16 Mirage F1AZ/CZ variants. However, they were not granted the license to produce either the aircraft or its engines due to the 1977 arms embargo (hence marketing the jet with RD-33 as well). If they did, they would have certainly produced these aircraft, which were initially bought to replace the Mirage IIIs. 

South Africa later ran out of money and retired its fleet and retaining just the upgrade Cheetahs since the program was already underway. 

We know that SA was able to modify the Mirages to a certain degree out of necessity. They were unable to purchase new aircraft and thus had to rely on upgrading what they had. They did not construct brand new Cheetah but did construct newer wings and refurbished the airframes with the help of Israelis expertise (from IAI Nesher). So any tech transfer to Pakistan in the 80s was out of the question due to Israeli involvement


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## Incog_nito

araz said:


> Agreed but everything at the moment is up for grabs and can change at a moments notice. Wait till 2021 though and things will clearify.
> A


I even feel that as Pakistan economy improves we might look into making Grippen NG in Pakistan or may be buying French next generation fighter in small numbers like 50 or so.

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## Incog_nito

FuturePAF said:


> First Point
> I was quoting Oscar's specific estimation, but indeed you have brought up similar views, and I have agreed with you on them. Yes, you should be credited with advocating the merits on the JH-7A, if not the originator of the view (I will take your word on in), a vocal proponent nonetheless.
> 
> Second Point
> You are correct, I am not as familiar with the maintenance record of British origin aircraft. The reason I argued for the Tornado was the potential availability of the air frames, at potentially affordable acquisition prices, with modern capabilities, and in a short period of time, presuming the PAF pilots have years of experience on them. I know that's a lot of IFs, hence the caveat that the PAF should study the Tornados for their suitability per their experience with it, if any. Another HUGE caveat is the supply of weapons to arms said Tornados. Without access to smart munitions, these planes would be nothing more than fancy iron bombs platforms.
> 
> Therefore at the end of my post, I advocated either the J-10Ce which can carry 8000kg or the JH-7A which can carry 6500kg per Deagel.com
> 
> Third Point
> Yes, on the acquisition of the JH-7A, it can be done with a lot more flexibility. Not only in terms of the financing but the equipment, and the variety of munitions it can carry. Upgrading the Design, engines, and avionics can all be done if we are requesting a 1500 T/R AESA radar, to match those of the Tornado, and finally scrap the Mirages. We could also buy brand new aircraft that would last 30 years with an increase use of composites and some reshaping to minimize stress on the air frame. You are correct, there is no other aircraft the PAF can acquire with so much potential, at such little cost, from a trusted ally.
> 
> Fourth Point
> Indeed the JH-7A could change the way India operates in the Arabian Sea, if not at its land bases close to the border and further in land. Tornados regularly flew stable at 600 knots under 100 feet off the deck. The new WS-19 engines, if they could super-cruise; could potentially push that record and then some. Delhi is less than 400 km from the border. A supersonic flyover alone, on the deck, would rattle the Indians to their bones, akin to the psychological effect of the Osirak raid near Baghdad.
> 
> Only Caveat
> For as good as the JH-7A is; it is still primarily designed as a strike platform. We need to acquire the J-10CE in equal numbers to provide adequate escort protection, for long range missions. (We can no longer trust on the F-16, and the JF-17 for all its accolades, is a short-legged defensive fighter) We need to be able to go offensive if we are to make a paradigm shift in regional dynamics. The PAF can not afford to absorb attacks when the danger is eminent. The PAF needs to think more like the IDF-AF. BUT, this can only be possible once we have secured a stable economy, and these two platforms. I know that's not what you want to hear, but we need to fight the inner demons before we can face the external ones.
> 
> I know you were not pleased with the PAF during the February Skirmish, but not getting derailed in rebuilding the Economy was a more important requirement, so that long term we are able to properly defend ourselves.
> 
> *Hats off to you Sir. I hope the PAF takes your advice and goes for the JH-7A (as well as the J-10CE).*
> 
> 
> 
> In the short term, acquiring types the PAF operates buys them more time with a type they have already sunk pilot training, infrastructure, maintenance, and all other kinds of familiarity, but long term, once the economic crisis passes, they need to recapitalize the force with capabilities adequate enough to meet the threat.
> 
> The threat is not only conventional but political. Pakistan's ties with the west could change on a whim, and that is not a long term solution to a constant threat from India. Hence acquiring more F-16s, unless for free or nearly free are not worth it, as PAF decided when it had the choice. The same goes for the Mirage. The PAF knows what it wants if it had the budget. The military needs to help root out any corruption preventing the nation from getting its economy back on track, the enemies within are worse then those on the outside.
> 
> The Block III is great in all capabilities, but is limited by short range, a limited payload, and generally smaller sensors. the doctrine dictates the platforms we need, and the PAF needs to think more Offensive if its to change the regional dynamics, and had an adequate defense going forwards. the Enemy is getting bolder, and need to know the PAF can counter them conventionally.
> 
> Hence the need to get the J-10CE, and help modernize and acquire the JH-7A; at least 68 aircraft each (4 full squadrons each), along with the last 50 JF-17 Block IIIs would allow the PAF to retire most of the Mirages and most of the F-7s. We would need to still field the last remnants of the Mirages and F-7s, if we intent to keep our numbers up, retiring them once we induct Project AZM/5th Gen Fighter. Hence the modest upgrades of the youngest Mirage air-frames would allow the force to have modern capabilities at all levels. Maybe 50 Mirages, and 30 twin seat F-7PGs for Pilot training.
> 
> An Order of battle by 2030 would be as follows:
> 76 F-16s
> 68 JH-7A (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
> 68 J-10CE (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
> 149 JF-17 (Last Three Squadrons of JF-17s could be build and operational by 2024)
> and the last 80 Mirages and F-7s to be replaced when we get 5 Squadrons of 5th gen jets
> (50 Mirages could be upgraded over the next 3-5 years, and all fully operational by 2024)
> 
> Should more F-16s become available, we could scale back Mirage upgrades and speed up retirement of the F-7s, and if even more F-16s come in retire the mirages all together.
> We need to get 4 Squadrons of J-10CEs and 4 Squadrons of JH-7As.
> 
> P.S. When Upgrading the JH-7A Design; studying the research on future medium supersonic bombers will have to be looked at, so that what we field in the mid 2020s is still potent by 2050. Pakistan could work with the Chinese on a "Medium Range Semi-Stealthy Tactical Bomber"; a replacement for the JH-7A. Powered by two Ws-19 Engines; If we are looking for 60-80 Aircraft, and the Chinese plan to replace their JH-7/Jh-7A fleet of 270; a 350 aircraft program could get top priority and be fielded by middle of the next decade; especially that the WS-19 engines are showing progress.
> 
> From *Janes* for your contemplation pleasure:
> https://www.janes.com/article/85813/china-may-be-developing-first-two-seat-stealth-combat-aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blend the Knowledge gained from the J-20 with the designs from the American ATF program. Here is one particularly interesting design; similar to the JH-7 and the Tornado; but a delta wing. Considering they will be flying low to the ground or low over the sea; weapons hanging under the wings would not raise the RCS much, even if Awacs aircraft are around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source:https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/The_General_Dynamics_ATF_proposal/5-1811184/
> 
> Wings with this shape would have lower wing loading and therefore a lower stalling speed and allow a better sustained turn performance (to better escape enemy defenses). A wing of this shape would allow the plane to be relatively smaller but still have decent range, and fly-by-wire technology would allow it to fly nap of the earth low level flying to avoid detection. The F-16XL also showed the wing shape made for a smoother ride at low altitude. The F-16Xl failed to secure a production contract because it could not super-cruise, a need to keep its IR signature low. Luckily the WS-19 is under-development, and as the engine for the PLANAF carrier force; super-cruise is a program goal. The Research from the F-16XL, under NASA, showed how to eliminate laminar flow and achieve super-cruise with the engine technology at the time. Hence the validity of this design for the long range strike role was vindicated.
> 
> Considering this design came from General Dynamics; this is a stealthier derivative of the F-16XL; which was planned as a deep strike platform. The payload alone speaks for itself.


These Delta configuration looks good and I hope that PAF that love Delta design (Mirage style aircraft), will design Azm project on similar delta configuration and in a tandem seating arrangement as two pilots in modern jet is better than a single sweater aircraft.


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## Incog_nito

araz said:


> The strike in dhotilands was with Mirages with JFTs providing escorts if my info is correct.
> A


30 Mirage Vs from Egypt will help us for more of such strikes in near future...


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Friend, airframe manufacturing is not expensive; again a matter of priorities you already have Rd-93/33 available which afford far better fuel economy; this was already tried as a prototype for both Cheetah and F1AZs. Ecuador operates a lot of EW/Comms from Grinel as most south american countries. Radar was based on 2032 with a lot of additional work done at Grinel and Reutech.
> 
> Radar and avonics can be replaced with Grifo and SAGEM; that is not a concern; Cheetah was designed to be modular in flexibility to change and upgrade.


If I could add... The PAF doesn't even need to go as far as the Cheetah in terms of changing the airframe. It can retain the design as-is, but work on an actual SLEP program to zero-hour the airframe. It can look at Denel's old Atlas books and see how to zero-hour the ATAR engine as well. With SLEP and total engine overhauls in place, the PAF can then look at a serious radar and avionics upgrade (e.g., Leonardo GaN-based Grifo-E AESA radar).

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## araz

IM Ozair said:


> I even feel that as Pakistan economy improves we might look into making Grippen NG in Pakistan or may be buying French next generation fighter in small numbers like 50 or so.


Gripen has capabilities comparative to JFT. It has already been denied to us so unlikely we will ask again. Secondly we dont need a second fighter with comparative characteristics to JFT. Personally I dont see an intermediate buy for PAF unless 5th generation platform gets delayed by 2030-35.



IM Ozair said:


> 30 Mirage Vs from Egypt will help us for more of such strikes in near future...


I think they might be for spares more so than actual assett build up but then I could be wrong. Let us wait and see.
A

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If I could add... The PAF doesn't even need to go as far as the Cheetah in terms of changing the airframe. It can retain the design as-is, but work on an actual SLEP program to zero-hour the airframe. It can look at Denel's old Atlas books and see how to zero-hour the ATAR engine as well. With SLEP and total engine overhauls in place, the PAF can then look at a serious radar and avionics upgrade (e.g., Leonardo GaN-based Grifo-E AESA radar).


Or add the rd93 too its available anyway ..might seriously improve the range..
If PAF intend to keep mirages beyond 2027-30 this might be a serious option

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## TheTallGuy

ziaulislam said:


> Or add the rd93 too its available anyway ..might seriously improve the range..
> If PAF intend to keep mirages beyond 2027-30 this might be a serious option



What are we going to do about COG of Mirage 3 this idea worked with Mirage F1 but not with Mirage 3.


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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If I could add... The PAF doesn't even need to go as far as the Cheetah in terms of changing the airframe. It can retain the design as-is, but work on an actual SLEP program to zero-hour the airframe. It can look at Denel's old Atlas books and see how to zero-hour the ATAR engine as well. With SLEP and total engine overhauls in place, the PAF can then look at a serious radar and avionics upgrade (e.g., Leonardo GaN-based Grifo-E AESA radar).


Why not just go for new Airframe and rd33?

@denel if i am not wrong Tel Aviv has no issue,selling anything to anyone,until or unless uncle sam comes in.


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## Maarkhoor

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Why not just go for new Airframe and rd33?
> 
> @denel if i am not wrong Tel Aviv has no issue,selling anything to anyone,until or unless uncle sam comes in.


Yeah if Uncle Sams says yes go ahead like they sold Russian weapons to CIA against Russia.


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## ziaulislam

bottom line is by 2030 thunders will be available in numbers, and PAF will take a thunder any day even over mirage 5 as its mulitrole plateform within better range than mirage..
regarding ground clearence/raad issue its easier to simply develop a new strategic weapon


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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Why not just go for new Airframe and rd33?
> 
> @denel if i am not wrong Tel Aviv has no issue,selling anything to anyone,until or unless uncle sam comes in.


Airframes you dont need from IAI, they can be fabricated either at Chengdu or yourside too.



IM Ozair said:


> 30 Mirage Vs from Egypt will help us for more of such strikes in near future...


More for parts; or possible re-worked to replace older mirages.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If I could add... The PAF doesn't even need to go as far as the Cheetah in terms of changing the airframe. It can retain the design as-is, but work on an actual SLEP program to zero-hour the airframe. It can look at Denel's old Atlas books and see how to zero-hour the ATAR engine as well. With SLEP and total engine overhauls in place, the PAF can then look at a serious radar and avionics upgrade (e.g., Leonardo GaN-based Grifo-E AESA radar).



Thank you, Exactly, A modest upgrade after a decent overhaul will allow our fleet to soldier on for another 15 years. These platforms should be looked at as just that, platforms. Taking in data, properly processing it and showing it to the pilot, allowing the pilot to moving into position, and launching their smart munitions to achieve the mission.

With all the modern PGMs being made by China, maybe we should stick to a Chinese Radar option. Avionics, HMD/HMS, EW Suite could be Turkish or European, but whatever is needed to allow us to use Chinese munitions we should stick to. It gives us room to get ToT and make those munitions in Pakistan.

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## JK!

@denel

https://www.africandefence.net/project-carver-emerges-from-the-shadows/

Fascinating article. I’m gutted you guys never went all the way with this.

Would love it if this level of knowledge and technology was shared with Pakistan for Project Azm and also for bringing up the Mirage Fleet to Cheetah C standards.

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## GriffinsRule

Question is, why did SAAF go with the Saab Gripen instead of fabricating new Mirage airframes from scratch themselves? @denel


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## aftab_s81

JK! said:


> @denel
> 
> https://www.africandefence.net/project-carver-emerges-from-the-shadows/
> 
> Fascinating article. I’m gutted you guys never went all the way with this.
> 
> Would love it if this level of knowledge and technology was shared with Pakistan for Project Azm and also for bringing up the Mirage Fleet to Cheetah C standards.


Great share, it was pleasure to read. Thanks.


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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> Question is, why did SAAF go with the Saab Gripen instead of fabricating new Mirage airframes from scratch themselves? @denel


The reasons were very simple - politicians who sold out to massive corruption scandals to pave way for Jvs with EU. Other aspect was we no longer had enemies at our gates e.g. Cubans/Soviets.

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## syed_yusuf

When is Pakistan getting these Egyptian mirages ?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

syed_yusuf said:


> When is Pakistan getting these Egyptian mirages ?


Probably from end of next month.


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## Quwa

JK! said:


> @denel
> 
> https://www.africandefence.net/project-carver-emerges-from-the-shadows/
> 
> Fascinating article. I’m gutted you guys never went all the way with this.
> 
> Would love it if this level of knowledge and technology was shared with Pakistan for Project Azm and also for bringing up the Mirage Fleet to Cheetah C standards.


I wish South Africa factored into the PAF's Sabre II efforts. By combining their experience from the Carver with Klimov's RD-93, the PAF's ops experience, and China's industrial weight, we could have had a grittier and more affordable equivalent to the Gripen (i.e., composites, digital FBW, HMD/S, etc right off the bat).

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## nomi007

Quwa said:


> I wish South Africa factored into the PAF's Sabre II efforts. By combining their experience from the Carver with Klimov's RD-93, the PAF's ops experience, and China's industrial weight, we could have had a grittier and more affordable equivalent to the Gripen (i.e., composites, digital FBW, HMD/S, etc right off the bat).


WHAT IS YOUR OPTION ABOUT A JF-17 WESTERN VERSION WITH SOUTH AFRICAN, BRAZILIAN & ITALIAN EQUIPMENTS


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In the JF17's case---the chinese wanted to prove themselves and they wanted to learn---so that gave the Paf a lot more leeway than it was possible---. South africans might not have been as flexible to Paf's demands---.

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## Khanivore

Quwa said:


> I wish South Africa factored into the PAF's Sabre II efforts. By combining their experience from the Carver with Klimov's RD-93, the PAF's ops experience, and China's industrial weight, we could have had a grittier and more affordable equivalent to the Gripen (i.e., composites, digital FBW, HMD/S, etc right off the bat).


I would like to see a joint, multinational project for an advanced UCAV (full learning AI flown) by China, Pakistan, Turkey and South Africa. I'm sure they can come together and build something formidable.

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## Signalian

Path-Finder said:


> BLK-4 maybe can spin into JF18 that is larger than JF 17 with conformal fuel tanks and more powerful engine, something along F16 in size, dimension and capabilities.


Block IV should spin into a stealthy design, nothing else. We have 4 gen already and 4.5 gen through Block III, its the 5th gen which is required.



FuturePAF said:


> First Point
> Hence the need to get the J-10CE, and help modernize and acquire the JH-7A; at least 68 aircraft each (4 full squadrons each), along with the last 50 JF-17 Block IIIs would allow the PAF to retire most of the Mirages and most of the F-7s. We would need to still field the last remnants of the Mirages and F-7s, if we intent to keep our numbers up, retiring them once we induct Project AZM/5th Gen Fighter. Hence the modest upgrades of the youngest Mirage air-frames would allow the force to have modern capabilities at all levels. Maybe 50 Mirages, and 30 twin seat F-7PGs for Pilot training.
> 
> An Order of battle by 2030 would be as follows:
> 76 F-16s
> 68 JH-7A (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
> 68 J-10CE (could be build an reach full operational capability by 2027)
> 149 JF-17 (Last Three Squadrons of JF-17s could be build and operational by 2024)
> and the last 80 Mirages and F-7s to be replaced when we get 5 Squadrons of 5th gen jets
> (50 Mirages could be upgraded over the next 3-5 years, and all fully operational by 2024)
> 
> Should more F-16s become available, we could scale back Mirage upgrades and speed up retirement of the F-7s, and if even more F-16s come in retire the mirages all together.
> We need to get 4 Squadrons of J-10CEs and 4 Squadrons of JH-7As.


PAF is realistically going for more Mirage-5's for strike role or spare parts. This means PAF is not considering J-10 or JH-7. The amount of money to be spent on 68 + 68 = 136 4/4.5 gen aircrafts can be spent on 5th aircraft, half the size or less even, but a technological leap atleast. Its not wise to spend more money on any new platform else than 5th gen. JF-17 Block III will build up the numbers and maybe used F-16's can fill in the gaps too if possible. Even if PAF gets 2 squadrons of 5th gen aircraft to start with, it could slowly keep adding more. PAF might go for twin engine in 5th gen (although i doubt that), but going for an older generation twin engine JH-7 is almost out of question. J-10 has been discussed many times, unless PAF itself shows interest in J-10, I wouldn't bother discussing it. 

J-10 or JH-7 bring little to no edge over IAF's Rafale acquisition, but a 5th gen can tilt the scenario in PAF's favour and until then sticking with JF-17 Block III seems plausible.



Khanivore said:


> I would like to see a joint, multinational project for an advanced UCAV (full learning AI flown) by China, Pakistan, Turkey and South Africa. I'm sure they can come together and build something formidable.


I would like to see JF-17 controllable UAV's in PAF service and T-129 controllable UAV's in PAA service.

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## denel

Khanivore said:


> I would like to see a joint, multinational project for an advanced UCAV (full learning AI flown) by China, Pakistan, Turkey and South Africa. I'm sure they can come together and build something formidable.


Dont forget to include Brazil. There is already a long term UAV MALE program locally ongoing.


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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## denel

How many EA birds are to be transitioned? There were supposed to be around 70+; only 30 odd is being reported; will the others be knocked down for parts if at all salvagable?


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## syed_yusuf

Any update on mirage 5 from Egypt


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

syed_yusuf said:


> Any update on mirage 5 from Egypt


They were suppose to arrive some time this month. Maybe Allan Warnes will mention it in the Airforce Monthly June Edition!!!!!


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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In the JF17's case---the chinese wanted to prove themselves and they wanted to learn---so that gave the Paf a lot more leeway than it was possible---. South africans might not have been as flexible to Paf's demands---.


we dont offer any technical challenge or a significant defense / technology market share
South Africans may listen if Pakistan can offer one of the following that they find worthy


some technological breakthrough (or a proof of concept as you put it)
an offer of a sum of money (subjectively substantial)
Diplomatic/ Political benefits
the business case / worth of that partnership to a project & beyond
there is nothing worthy that Pakistan can offer when specially its at the mercy of IMF and FATF

South Africans might face some backlash (for merely doing business with Pakistan)
I understand that money is not everything it has to be more than that. they might see more opportunity cost or disadvantage doing business with us

granted Pakistan is not at the bad level of Iran but still there is a lot of bad rep for Pakistan due to continued American hostility towards Pakistan and continued Indian corporate sabotage of Pakistani deals across the globe

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## denel

Irfan Baloch said:


> we dont offer any technical challenge or a significant defense / technology market share
> South Africans may listen if Pakistan can offer one of the following that they find worthy
> 
> 
> some technological breakthrough (or a proof of concept as you put it)
> an offer of a sum of money (subjectively substantial)
> Diplomatic/ Political benefits
> the business case / worth of that partnership to a project & beyond
> there is nothing worthy that Pakistan can offer when specially its at the mercy of IMF and FATF
> 
> South Africans might face some backlash (for merely doing business with Pakistan)
> I understand that money is not everything it has to be more than that. they might want to see more opportunity cost or disadvantage.
> granted Pakistan is not at the bad level of Iran but still there is a lot of bad rep for Pakistan due to continued American hostility towards Pakistan and continued Indian corporate sabotage of Pakistani deals across the globe


Not true. We want business all the way. The times of pressure are not relevant to us.

Thank god we got rid of the parasites Guptas so no more captured govt, we are free and willing.

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## Irfan Baloch

denel said:


> Not true. We want business all the way. The times of pressure are not relevant to us.
> 
> Thank god we got rid of the parasites Guptas so no more captured govt, we are free and willing.


I sincerely hope there is much from Pakistan to offer in addition to hard cash
i.e some good technology share and exchange from its JF 17 program and Mirage 3 /5 rebuild on diplomatic front I am not aware what Pakistan can offer that would interest South Africa. military to military and social / trade interaction has potential too


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## denel

Irfan Baloch said:


> I sincerely hope there is much from Pakistan to offer in addition to hard cash
> i.e some good technology share and exchange from its JF 17 program and Mirage 3 /5 rebuild on diplomatic front I am not aware what Pakistan can offer that would interest South Africa. military to military and social / trade interaction has potential too


there is a huge areas of cooperation that can be done - on the mine proof vehicles, small arms, artillery, aam's etc. there is a huge interest in the mining community to relook at the potential; another is SASOL - to convert coal to liquid fuels to name a few.

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## Sinnerman108

Irfan Baloch said:


> we dont offer any technical challenge or a significant defense / technology market share
> South Africans may listen if Pakistan can offer one of the following that they find worthy
> 
> 
> some technological breakthrough (or a proof of concept as you put it)
> an offer of a sum of money (subjectively substantial)
> Diplomatic/ Political benefits
> the business case / worth of that partnership to a project & beyond
> there is nothing worthy that Pakistan can offer when specially its at the mercy of IMF and FATF
> 
> South Africans might face some backlash (for merely doing business with Pakistan)
> I understand that money is not everything it has to be more than that. they might see more opportunity cost or disadvantage doing business with us
> 
> granted Pakistan is not at the bad level of Iran but still there is a lot of bad rep for Pakistan due to continued American hostility towards Pakistan and continued Indian corporate sabotage of Pakistani deals across the globe



I you haven't learned to appreciate the dutch in south africa. 
These people can and will do business at any rate, and in any conditions. 
Very pragmatic, and accommodating people.

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## denel

Sinnerman108 said:


> I you haven't learned to appreciate the dutch in south africa.
> These people can and will do business at any rate, and in any conditions.
> Very pragmatic, and accommodating people.


Correct, we dont obey the norms. For us there is not such this as cash, we always work around any form of transaction; that is why you will see our business right across the continent whereas Europeans/US shyed away. If you cannot deliver cash, we will do barter even.

Remember one saying - 'a boer always makes a plan'. This is part of our daily lives. Give me a wire and a plier i will make things with it.



Irfan Baloch said:


> I sincerely hope there is much from Pakistan to offer in addition to hard cash
> i.e some good technology share and exchange from its JF 17 program and Mirage 3 /5 rebuild on diplomatic front I am not aware what Pakistan can offer that would interest South Africa. military to military and social / trade interaction has potential too


Our grip is the Pak leadership as well as the consulate officials including the defence attaches in Pretoria - they are playing around for decades; you just need to come here and see the corrupt people that are assigned. Can you believe it they steals mining scholarships meant for civilians and bring mil personnel to study. Heavens sake what have they got to do with mining degrees? Last time i checked when at Wits, there were over 20+ all over the age of 45+ with their wives - if that is not stealing from younger generation for whom these were meant for.
Sorry I digressed but it pains me to write this but until entire foreign affairs staff and their lackey's are thrown out of the mafia they have created here. Who imports carpets and other items via diplomatic couriers to sell?

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## Irfan Baloch

Sinnerman108 said:


> I you haven't learned to appreciate the dutch in south africa.
> These people can and will do business at any rate, and in any conditions.
> Very pragmatic, and accommodating people.


you are correct that I don't know much about them, other than that they are top tier ruthlessly effective mercenaries, racist to the core and very industrial and tenacious right from the days of their sea piracy and building the dam to hold back the sea and beat off the Brits by flooding the country and then pumping out the water again.

its good to know if their dealings are pure business
but how good are they in terms of their military technology?

good as in quality control (covers good engineering, reliability and functionality)
good as in technology level and expertise, are they as good as their Western European cousins?

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## Sinnerman108

Irfan Baloch said:


> you are correct that I don't know much about them, other than that they are top tier ruthlessly effective mercenaries, racist to the core and very industrial and tenacious right from the days of their sea piracy and building the dam to hold back the sea and beat off the Brits by flooding the country and then pumping out the water again.
> 
> its good to know if their dealings are pure business
> but how good are they in terms of their military technology?
> 
> good as in quality control (covers good engineering, reliability and functionality)
> good as in technology level and expertise, are they as good as their Western European cousins?



See @denel response. 
I have worked with many people from SA. 
and I continue to do business with them.

Think of SA, as a very pragmatic bridge to their otherwise stiff european cousins.

Less Bla Bla, more work.

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> Can you believe it they steals mining scholarships meant for civilians and bring mil personnel to study. Heavens sake what have they got to do with mining degrees? Last time i checked when at Wits, there were over 20+ all over the age of 45+ with their wives - if that is not stealing from younger generation for whom these were meant for.


Many states have stopped our guys for LEA matters due to this shit.


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## denel

Irfan Baloch said:


> you are correct that I don't know much about them, other than that they are top tier ruthlessly effective mercenaries, racist to the core and very industrial and tenacious right from the days of their sea piracy and building the dam to hold back the sea and beat off the Brits by flooding the country and then pumping out the water again.
> 
> its good to know if their dealings are pure business
> but how good are they in terms of their military technology?
> 
> good as in quality control (covers good engineering, reliability and functionality)
> good as in technology level and expertise, are they as good as their Western European cousins?


Top notch in terms of technology. unlike americans we dont make too much noise. US came to us for mine proof vehicles and entire generation is based on our vehicles; similarly for other technologies e.g. comms, AAMs, SAms.

dont say dutch here. we broke that connection over 500yrs back. not at all same people.

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## Incog_nito

denel said:


> How many EA birds are to be transitioned? There were supposed to be around 70+; only 30 odd is being reported; will the others be knocked down for parts if at all salvagable?


I guess you picked up in between lines. PAF will use the 30 for flying roles and will acquire more under the table for spares.

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## mshan44



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## denel

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 564738


Man, seeing a M3 photo is like seeing an first love.. always brings a lot of emotions.

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## FuturePAF

denel said:


> Top notch in terms of technology. unlike americans we dont make too much noise. US came to us for mine proof vehicles and entire generation is based on our vehicles; similarly for other technologies e.g. comms, AAMs, SAms.
> 
> dont say dutch here. we broke that connection over 500yrs back. not at all same people.



Considering Pakistan is setting up a RD-93 Overhaul facility in Pakistan, and Atlas tested the IAR-95 (rd-33 derivative) on the Atlas Cheetah D #847; how much do you think the development cost would be to the PAF to partner with Denel and restart the Cheetah D program? It seems Denel could get a lot of work out of upgrading the PAF mirages structurally. Furthermore, how much more would it cost to go the #847 route, and integrate the rd-93 engine, considering they have already done most of the research already?

If spread over the current 6 squadrons; 100 odd air frames, would the costs be justified if the planes are *required* to serve on for the *next 10-15 years*? (PAF would also have to upgrade the avionics in order to see the full benefit, but that is a separate issue)


*The #847 with the Russian Engine*
http://www.rodbearden.com/South Africa 2018/SAAF Museum Swartkop/Atlas Cheetah D 847 1.html

http://www.rodbearden.com/South Africa 2018/SAAF Museum Swartkop/Atlas Cheetah D 847 4.html

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## mshan44



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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> Considering Pakistan is setting up a RD-93 Overhaul facility in Pakistan, and Atlas tested the IAR-95 (rd-33 derivative) on the Atlas Cheetah D #847; how much do you think the development cost would be to the PAF to partner with Denel and restart the Cheetah D program? It seems Denel could get a lot of work out of upgrading the PAF mirages structurally. Furthermore, how much more would it cost to go the #847 route, and integrate the rd-93 engine, considering they have already done most of the research already?
> 
> If spread over the current 6 squadrons; 100 odd air frames, would the costs be justified if the planes are *required* to serve on for the *next 10-15 years*? (PAF would also have to upgrade the avionics in order to see the full benefit, but that is a separate issue)
> 
> 
> *The #847 with the Russian Engine*
> http://www.rodbearden.com/South Africa 2018/SAAF Museum Swartkop/Atlas Cheetah D 847 1.html
> 
> http://www.rodbearden.com/South Africa 2018/SAAF Museum Swartkop/Atlas Cheetah D 847 4.html


I dont think the effort is worth the benefit. I suspect most M3/5s will be gone in the next 3-5 years and a couple of squadrons may be retained for specialized roles and a few cacooned away for emergencies. If our finances improve we may increase the number of JFts we require by ramping up production. There is talk of acquiring another platform but at the moment in my humble opinion it is nothing more than talk.
A

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## denel

FuturePAF said:


> Considering Pakistan is setting up a RD-93 Overhaul facility in Pakistan, and Atlas tested the IAR-95 (rd-33 derivative) on the Atlas Cheetah D #847; how much do you think the development cost would be to the PAF to partner with Denel and restart the Cheetah D program? It seems Denel could get a lot of work out of upgrading the PAF mirages structurally. Furthermore, how much more would it cost to go the #847 route, and integrate the rd-93 engine, considering they have already done most of the research already?
> 
> If spread over the current 6 squadrons; 100 odd air frames, would the costs be justified if the planes are *required* to serve on for the *next 10-15 years*? (PAF would also have to upgrade the avionics in order to see the full benefit, but that is a separate issue)
> 
> 
> *The #847 with the Russian Engine*
> http://www.rodbearden.com/South Africa 2018/SAAF Museum Swartkop/Atlas Cheetah D 847 1.html
> 
> http://www.rodbearden.com/South Africa 2018/SAAF Museum Swartkop/Atlas Cheetah D 847 4.html


Hi 
I do concur with Araz; the time for this venture is long gone 22yrs back. It is time to focus on next generation.

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## JohnWick

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 564738


Still better than tejas

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## FuturePAF

denel said:


> Hi
> I do concur with Araz; the time for this venture is long gone 22yrs back. It is time to focus on next generation.



Thanks Denel and Araz. I just wanted to flush out the issue so it can be put to rest. Its all onwards to More JFT, Project Azm, and UCAVs.

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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> Thanks Denel and Araz. I just wanted to flush out the issue so it can be put to rest. Its all onwards to More JFT, Project Azm, and UCAVs.


Welcome. The delta conundrum needs to be seen in the perspective of PAF's quest to acquire the M2Ks. We made 3 attempts and the best one was in the 90s when our friend MuradK was involved. Had it not been for Zardari sticking his dirty fingers along with the French Sarkozy we might have even acquired it. In the early 2000 as a sign of desperation we approached the French again for 59 units but the offer was withdrawn by them and we were pushed toward the really expensive Rafale which was beyond our means. I guess we were too far advanced in the JFT project to consider buying the whole M2K assembly line in one big deal which might have been cost prohibitive but have given us the French version of the JFT experience. The M53 were old and cost prohibitive but could we have negotiated for M88s on the M2ks and more importantly would the Ffrench have agreed? I dont know the answer to that. I do however think PAF contiues to look for 3 squadrons of Deltas/Multirole platforms.
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## ANG

Hi, the Cheetah which is a derivative of the Kfir, and the Kfir is still alive and kicking. The airframe of PAF's Mirages can be brought to 0 hours and modified. But is it is a matter of cost. $$$!!!

//www.janes.com/article/89345/paris-air-show-2019-iai-offering-kfir-ng-to-colombia-expects-to-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service


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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> Welcome. The delta conundrum needs to be seen in the perspective of PAF's quest to acquire the M2Ks. We made 3 attempts and the best one was in the 90s when our friend MuradK was involved. Had it not been for Zardari sticking his dirty fingers along with the French Sarkozy we might have even acquired it. In the early 2000 as a sign of desperation we approached the French again for 59 units but the offer was withdrawn by them and we were pushed toward the really expensive Rafale which was beyond our means. I guess we were too far advanced in the JFT project to consider buying the whole M2K assembly line in one big deal which might have been cost prohibitive but have given us the French version of the JFT experience. The M53 were old and cost prohibitive but could we have negotiated for M88s on the M2ks and more importantly would the Ffrench have agreed? I dont know the answer to that. I do however think PAF contiues to look for 3 squadrons of Deltas/Multirole platforms.
> A



If the PAF is looking for 3 Squadrons (~51 aircraft) of Delta, why not acquire the J-10CE? In all aspect, a superior aircraft then the Mirage 2000 (arguably equal to the Rafale), and the PAF could customize it as it has when every other Chinese platform it has acquired. When the WS-15 matures, it would theoretically allow the plane to super-cruise and be as efficient to operate, if not more so, then the Eurofighters the PAF was considering a while back, but at a fraction of the price.

BTW, If Pakistan acquires 3 squadrons of J-10CE, it should also add a clause into the purchase to be able to emergency lease with the option to buy a further 3 squadrons of J-10's. A wartime resupply option could ease the burden on the PAF to have as many fighters, if they have the knowledge they can be resupplied in a matter of days, with a fresh batch of J-10s.

Something akin to the wartime resupply in the 1973 mid east war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass

P.S. The planned purchase of 36 J-10B in 2006 was approximately $1.4 Billion or $39 million each. How much do you think the J-10CE in 2019 dollars would cost? The J-10 has a larger flight envelope then the JF-17 and is finally a mature design in the form of the J-10CE with AESA (although that fan art J-10D looked great ). 50 J-10CE would allow the PAF to break its dependence on the F-16, and for a relatively reasonable price. 

Also with the added thrust planned on the WS-15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_WS-15), it could allow the J-10 to carry 2 of a smaller version of the CX-1 Missile per aircraft, far out to sea, to defend against any possibly blockade in time of crisis.

something akin to the Brahmos NG
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cc39f8933cc739c8167fa58b4d59e5e8.webp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Pakistan

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## Tamiyah

FuturePAF said:


> If the PAF is looking for 3 Squadrons (~51 aircraft) of Delta, why not acquire the J-10CE? In all aspect, a superior aircraft then the Mirage 2000 (arguably equal to the Rafale), and the PAF could customize it as it has when every other Chinese platform it has acquired. When the WS-15 matures, it would theoretically allow the plane to super-cruise and be as efficient to operate, if not more so, then the Eurofighters the PAF was considering a while back, but at a fraction of the price.
> 
> BTW, If Pakistan acquires 3 squadrons of J-10CE, it should also add a clause into the purchase to be able to emergency lease with the option to buy a further 3 squadrons of J-10's. A wartime resupply option could ease the burden on the PAF to have as many fighters, if they have the knowledge they can be resupplied in a matter of days, with a fresh batch of J-10s.
> 
> Something akin to the wartime resupply in the 1973 mid east war.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass


Do our economical conditions allow us?


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## FuturePAF

Tamiyah said:


> Do our economical conditions allow us?



We can spread out a purchase over the next 5-10 years, but we have to retire our Mirages soon and need to plan accordingly. We can start with a purchase of 2 squadron as originally planned during Musharraf's time, but the money will have to be found once the economy is straighten out.

The PAF should wait and see over the next 2-3 years, but let CAC and China know Pakistan is interested if the economy improves enough, so training can be started as soon as possible.


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## Tamiyah

FuturePAF said:


> We can spread out a purchase over the next 5-10 years, but we have to retire our Mirages soon and need to plan accordingly. We can start with a purchase of 2 squadron as originally planned during Musharraf's time, but the money will have to be found once the economy is straighten out.
> 
> The PAF should wait and see over the next 2-3 years, but let CAC and China know Pakistan is interested if the economy improves enough, so training can be started as soon as possible.


Yes. J10 is the techonology of present and mirage were of past.

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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> If the PAF is looking for 3 Squadrons (~51 aircraft) of Delta, why not acquire the J-10CE? In all aspect, a superior aircraft then the Mirage 2000 (arguably equal to the Rafale), and the PAF could customize it as it has when every other Chinese platform it has acquired. When the WS-15 matures, it would theoretically allow the plane to super-cruise and be as efficient to operate, if not more so, then the Eurofighters the PAF was considering a while back, but at a fraction of the price.
> 
> BTW, If Pakistan acquires 3 squadrons of J-10CE, it should also add a clause into the purchase to be able to emergency lease with the option to buy a further 3 squadrons of J-10's. A wartime resupply option could ease the burden on the PAF to have as many fighters, if they have the knowledge they can be resupplied in a matter of days, with a fresh batch of J-10s.
> 
> Something akin to the wartime resupply in the 1973 mid east war.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass
> 
> P.S. The planned purchase of 36 J-10B in 2006 was approximately $1.4 Billion or $39 million each. How much do you think the J-10CE in 2019 dollars would cost? The J-10 has a larger flight envelope then the JF-17 and is finally a mature design in the form of the J-10CE with AESA (although that fan art J-10D looked great ). 50 J-10CE would allow the PAF to break its dependence on the F-16, and for a relatively reasonable price.
> 
> Also with the added thrust planned on the WS-15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_WS-15), it could allow the J-10 to carry 2 of a smaller version of the CX-1 Missile per aircraft, far out to sea, to defend against any possibly blockade in time of crisis.
> 
> something akin to the Brahmos NG
> https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cc39f8933cc739c8167fa58b4d59e5e8.webp
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Pakistan


Rumour has it the Chinese were demanding 60 million per piece. PAF wanted to pay 40 something per aircraft. So at the moment it is a question of who is more desperate, ie the seller or the buyer. If the option of 16s opens up(very unlikely but not impossible), the negotiations could take an interesting turn that is if PAF wants to go down that route. The problem from my perspective is still the fact that the J10c is a bit of an unknown quantity, as against a fully matured and battle proven platform in the 16/52s. This could work both ways as an unknown quantity has an advantage of its own. Let us see what transpires and with what engine and modifications if at all.
A

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

As it has come up again in the last few post---reader---if you ever be in a position to make a major major weapons system defense purchase---never stop it just for the reason of corruption.

Because once you stop it---it will be very difficult to get it again---.

Your enemy will get stronger---and you will be left behind eating dirt---.

10-15-20 years later you would be wishing that you had made that deal---.

Make the deal keeping in mind what it brings to the table---. Your major weapons procurement must give the enemy food for thought to come to the peace table---.

If an outrageous deal brings peace---then you have have already won---.

Muslims should always remember Golda Meir when making deal---. She made an outrageously expensive deal---she basically bought peace with that deal---.

I wish our colleague MURADK had that vision---.

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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> Rumour has it the Chinese were demanding 60 million per piece. PAF wanted to pay 40 something per aircraft. So at the moment it is a question of who is more desperate, ie the seller or the buyer. If the option of 16s opens up(very unlikely but not impossible), the negotiations could take an interesting turn that is if PAF wants to go down that route. The problem from my perspective is still the fact that the J10c is a bit of an unknown quantity, as against a fully matured and battle proven platform in the 16/52s. This could work both ways as an unknown quantity has an advantage of its own. Let us see what transpires and with what engine and modifications if at all.
> A



The J-10 back in 2006 was not that much better then the JF-17 in areas that mattered. Comparing a hypothetical JF-17 Block III with all the bells and whistles, the J-10 will have to have more than "double" the capability to justify double the price.

Capabilities that may justify the 60 million dollar asking price would be:
Sensor fusion, a super-crusing engine with high enough thrust for a great then 1.0 TWR in standard thrust and full combat loadout, the latest sensors, world class weapons, low RCS through shaping and RAM, electronic defenses and offensive systems, self protection decoys, IRST, HMD

Considering CAC has already integrated these onto the J-20; applying them to the J-10 shouldn't be a problem. The limitation would be doing all this within the $60 million dollar budget. If CAC can do this, then Pakistan should go for the J-10CE; it would be a more capable fighter then even the Rafale, and give the PAF qualitative advantage for a relatively modest price. 3 squadrons at $ 3 billion spread out over 5 years would allow the PAF to keep up with the IAF until Project AZM is ready.

The incentive for CAC and China in general would be a blockbuster system it can market to all friendly nations that want a fighter like the F-16 Block 70/72 at much more affordable prices. Above $60 million, the J-10CE would be competing with the likes of the F-35 at $80 Million, or even second hand Eurofighters, that could claim capabilities similar to the F-16 Block 70/72. $60 million would be a price that would allow them to sweep the market; Friendly ASEAN countries and Mideast countries looking to expand defense ties to China would be prime customers.

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## Armchair

J-10Cs start at 60 million and are also costly in terms of logistics and CPFH. 50 J-10s could cost as much as 80 million per plane, all said and done. 

PAF could re-manufacture Mirages. By this I don't mean overhaul, I mean re-manufacture parts using 3D printing. Other parts can use various metallurgical methods like electrolysis. These can include structural parts. 

If they standardize on an engine like the RD-93 then they can truly make them common and cheap to operate. The RD-93s which have been up-tuned for the JFT can be downtuned for better CPFH. 

PAF could lease some J-10Cs from China for 5 years and accelerate the Azm project.



FuturePAF said:


> The J-10 back in 2006 was not that much better then the JF-17 in areas that mattered. Comparing a hypothetical JF-17 Block III with all the bells and whistles, the J-10 will have to have more than "double" the capability to justify double the price.



Its not a matter of double the capability, air combat just doesn't work like that. Marginal improvements in capability costs a lot but offers advantage in battle. J-10s, Rafale and Eurofigher are designed for high altitude and high speed combat. They are masters of combat above 200 FL. They give a pilot an advantage in getting the first shot in BVR combat. This marginal improvement is enough for them to be worth the extra price.


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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> The J-10 back in 2006 was not that much better then the JF-17 in areas that mattered. Comparing a hypothetical JF-17 Block III with all the bells and whistles, the J-10 will have to have more than "double" the capability to justify double the price.
> 
> Capabilities that may justify the 60 million dollar asking price would be:
> Sensor fusion, a super-crusing engine with high enough thrust for a great then 1.0 TWR in standard thrust and full combat loadout, the latest sensors, world class weapons, low RCS through shaping and RAM, electronic defenses and offensive systems, self protection decoys, IRST, HMD
> 
> Considering CAC has already integrated these onto the J-20; applying them to the J-10 shouldn't be a problem. The limitation would be doing all this within the $60 million dollar budget. If CAC can do this, then Pakistan should go for the J-10CE; it would be a more capable fighter then even the Rafale, and give the PAF qualitative advantage for a relatively modest price. 3 squadrons at $ 3 billion spread out over 5 years would allow the PAF to keep up with the IAF until Project AZM is ready.
> 
> The incentive for CAC and China in general would be a blockbuster system it can market to all friendly nations that want a fighter like the F-16 Block 70/72 at much more affordable prices. Above $60 million, the J-10CE would be competing with the likes of the F-35 at $80 Million, or even second hand Eurofighters, that could claim capabilities similar to the F-16 Block 70/72. $60 million would be a price that would allow them to sweep the market; Friendly ASEAN countries and Mideast countries looking to expand defense ties to China would be prime customers.


You know as well as I do that sales in the mid weight class are slowing world wide due to austerity measures as well as multiple products. There is also international bullying to buy military hardware by the big 2 which at least the rest of the nations need to contend with. Will J10survive in this market remains ti be seen. I still doubt that the Chinese will sell J10 just yet while they are still getting upto gear with J20, J16s and J31. They have a potentially good product in the light weight category where it is unrivalled in its class and due to lack of competitors has a niche which can be exploited. I think the time is to project JFT with vigour and get sales as well as establish oneself in the 4/4.5 generation market. Later on the same market can be utilized for replacement products in 5th generation products. The strangle hold of the fighter Jet mafia is very strong and needs to be broken and I doubt one can do it in the mid weight category. 
Lastly I doubt the Chinese still have an engine that can do what you want the J10C to do. The engine manufacturing and proving to the world that these engines are reliable is a major weakness ofcthe Chinese systems. A testament to that is the PAF choice of RD93 instead of a comparable Chinese product. We have a lot of hoo haa but no proven product from China which can break that reputation( including the WS10 as of now) YET in my limited knowledge. I wish theChinese the best of luck and steady progress with this venture

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## FuturePAF

Armchair said:


> J-10Cs start at 60 million and are also costly in terms of logistics and CPFH. 50 J-10s could cost as much as 80 million per plane, all said and done.
> 
> PAF could re-manufacture Mirages. By this I don't mean overhaul, I mean re-manufacture parts using 3D printing. Other parts can use various metallurgical methods like electrolysis. These can include structural parts.
> 
> If they standardize on an engine like the RD-93 then they can truly make them common and cheap to operate. The RD-93s which have been up-tuned for the JFT can be downtuned for better CPFH.
> 
> PAF could lease some J-10Cs from China for 5 years and accelerate the Azm project.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not a matter of double the capability, air combat just doesn't work like that. Marginal improvements in capability costs a lot but offers advantage in battle. J-10s, Rafale and Eurofigher are designed for high altitude and high speed combat. They are masters of combat above 200 FL. They give a pilot an advantage in getting the first shot in BVR combat. This marginal improvement is enough for them to be worth the extra price.



The Mirages would require more than an overhaul to still be relevant in future conflicts. Electronics, Sensor Fusion, and a High enough TWR to carry long range munitions for precision strike from as far as possible will be key for future conflicts. The J-10 is expensive but with the upgrades I stated above it would give may of the capabilities of a 5th generation fighter in a relatively modest air frame.

I put double in quotes in the previous post to show that I didn't mean double literally. I agree the small improvements raise the price significantly. When its all said and done the price maybe higher than $60 million per plane, but the international market potential should incentives the Chinese to keep price as close to that price as possible, so they can win market share, and strategic alliances. Potentially moving countries into the Chinese camp.


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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> The J-10 back in 2006 was not that much better then the JF-17 in areas that mattered. Comparing a hypothetical JF-17 Block III with all the bells and whistles, the J-10 will have to have more than "double" the capability to justify double the price.
> 
> Capabilities that may justify the 60 million dollar asking price would be:
> Sensor fusion, a super-crusing engine with high enough thrust for a great then 1.0 TWR in standard thrust and full combat loadout, the latest sensors, world class weapons, low RCS through shaping and RAM, electronic defenses and offensive systems, self protection decoys, IRST, HMD
> 
> Considering CAC has already integrated these onto the J-20; applying them to the J-10 shouldn't be a problem. The limitation would be doing all this within the $60 million dollar budget. If CAC can do this, then Pakistan should go for the J-10CE; it would be a more capable fighter then even the Rafale, and give the PAF qualitative advantage for a relatively modest price. 3 squadrons at $ 3 billion spread out over 5 years would allow the PAF to keep up with the IAF until Project AZM is ready.
> 
> The incentive for CAC and China in general would be a blockbuster system it can market to all friendly nations that want a fighter like the F-16 Block 70/72 at much more affordable prices. Above $60 million, the J-10CE would be competing with the likes of the F-35 at $80 Million, or even second hand Eurofighters, that could claim capabilities similar to the F-16 Block 70/72. $60 million would be a price that would allow them to sweep the market; Friendly ASEAN countries and Mideast countries looking to expand defense ties to China would be prime customers.



Hi,

I will try to give an example that will be easy to understand---.

Suppose you have a 1 yr old baby daughter---the love of your life---you wife's your parents and all the family's life---. Your child is dying of an ailment---. 

The doctor prescribes a minimum 10 day MUST medicine course---.

The 10 day supply is very hard to find---there is nothing out there---but you find a generic medicine for a 5 day supply and an original for another 5 day supply---.

These are the only two options available---and nothing else---.

The generic medicine is Rs 100 a dose x 5+ Rs500

The original is Rs 500 a dose x 5 = Rs 2500 

Thank you for understanding now---.

The issue over here is that the Paf found out that it is woefully ill equipped in numbers on the night of the 26th and the day of the 27th---.

Even if Paf starts to get the JF17 BLK 3---it would be not at its best in the first couple of 3 - 4 years or so because of weapons and system integration and pilots being trained for the aircraft---.

The J10C already comes with fully integrated weapons & the total EW package---the same weapons that we use on the JF17---.

So---the problem with the Paf is a lack in immediate numbers of 4th gen aircraft---.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I will try to give an example that will be easy to understand---.
> 
> Suppose you have a 1 yr old baby daughter---the love of your life---you wife's your parents and all the family's life---. Your child is dying of an ailment---.
> 
> The doctor prescribes a minimum 10 day MUST medicine course---.
> 
> The 10 day supply is very hard to find---there is nothing out there---but you find a generic medicine for a 5 day supply and an original for another 5 day supply---.
> 
> These are the only two options available---and nothing else---.
> 
> The generic medicine is Rs 100 a dose x 5+ Rs500
> 
> The original is Rs 500 a dose x 5 = Rs 2500
> 
> Thank you for understanding now---.
> 
> The issue over here is that the Paf found out that it is woefully ill equipped in numbers on the night of the 26th and the day of the 27th---.
> 
> Even if Paf starts to get the JF17 BLK 3---it would be not at its best in the first couple of 3 - 4 years or so because of weapons and system integration and pilots being trained for the aircraft---.
> 
> The J10C already comes with fully integrated weapons & the total EW package---the same weapons that we use on the JF17---.
> 
> So---the problem with the Paf is a lack in immediate numbers of 4th gen aircraft---.



If numbers are the issue, then opening a second line to produce more JF-17 would be the solution. All the infrastructure, training, and support equipment is there and ready. 

The issue I was eluding to was a cost-benefit analysis. The J-10CE, in the estimation of the PAF, is not worth the $60 million asking price. The PAF was only willing to pay $40 million . I was suggesting CAC should improve the capabilities of the J-10, to bring it more in line with those of the F-16 Block 70/72, in order to justify its long term utility to the PAF. 

The CAC has nearly a decade of experience on flying and debugging the J-20. It can easily apply those same technologies to the air frame of the J-10. It would pay off for them, as they could market the upgrades to the PLAAF as ways to make their 400+ J-10 Fleet still able to operate in a region that will see hundreds of F-35s.

From your example, of Brand versus Generic. The patent has run out on the capabilities of 5th generation aircraft, it has become the new standard. China will need to match the Block 70/72 to convince PAF to get off the fence and commit. The soon PAF feels it is getting a good return on its investment, the sooner we can start inducting the J-10, and let go of the idea it can wait it out for more F-16s.


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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> If numbers are the issue, then opening a second line to produce more JF-17 would be the solution. All the infrastructure, training, and support equipment is there and ready.
> 
> The issue I was eluding to was a cost-benefit analysis. The J-10CE, in the estimation of the PAF, is not worth the $60 million asking price. The PAF was only willing to pay $40 million . I was suggesting CAC should improve the capabilities of the J-10, to bring it more in line with those of the F-16 Block 70/72, in order to justify its long term utility to the PAF.
> 
> The CAC has nearly a decade of experience on flying and debugging the J-20. It can easily apply those same technologies to the air frame of the J-10. It would pay off for them, as they could market the upgrades to the PLAAF as ways to make their 400+ J-10 Fleet still able to operate in a region that will see hundreds of F-35s.
> 
> From your example, of Brand versus Generic. The patent has run out on the capabilities of 5th generation aircraft, it has become the new standard. China will need to match the Block 70/72 to convince PAF to get off the fence and commit. The soon PAF feels it is getting a good return on its investment, the sooner we can start inducting the J-10, and let go of the idea it can wait it out for more F-16s.



Hi,

Paf has fkd up so many times over purchasing the right aircraft---that it is not even funny---.

The Mirage F1---the hawkeye---the M2K---the used M2K's---the Rafale---the F16's---and now the J10's---.

Paf is woefully low in numbers---that is why it had all its assets in the aircraft on the 27th---because it knew that if the war escalated---its assets in the air would be the determining factor---.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Paf has fkd up so many times over purchasing the right aircraft---that it is not even funny---.
> 
> The Mirage F1---the hawkeye---the M2K---the used M2K's---the Rafale---the F16's---and now the J10's---.
> 
> Paf is woefully low in numbers---that is why it had all its assets in the aircraft on the 27th---because it knew that if the war escalated---its assets in the air would be the determining factor---.



Do you think the J-10CE in its current form is worth the $60 Million price? and If so, How many aircraft would be appropriate to meet the current and developing threat?


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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> Do you think the J-10CE in its current form is worth the $60 Million price? and If so, How many aircraft would be appropriate to meet the current and developing threat?



Hi,

You are thinking like a MERCHANT / KAROBARI & NOT A WARRIOR---.

Price is fair---not the best---. Pakistan needs to create an urge of importance with the chinese ambassador to get the price worked at and get a deal done asap---. A gd number would be around 4 sqdrn's---.

But for the need---then price is secondary---.

Remember---BLK3 is a longways away---. Just because it would be going into production in 2020---does not mean that the Pilot & the aircraft JF17 BLK3 would be ready for combat---.

OTOH---the enemy Rafale coming in would be combat ready---.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are thinking like a MERCHANT / KAROBARI & NOT A WARRIOR---.
> 
> Price is fair---not the best---. Pakistan needs to create an urge of importance with the chinese ambassador to get the price worked at and get a deal done asap---. A gd number would be around 4 sqdrn's---.
> 
> But for the need---then price is secondary---.
> 
> Remember---BLK3 is a longways away---. Just because it would be going into production in 2020---does not mean that the Pilot & the aircraft JF17 BLK3 would be ready for combat---.
> 
> OTOH---the enemy Rafale coming in would be combat ready---.



I agree, but you have to think like a Merchant and a Warrior. $4 billion for 4 squadrons may not be currently affordable for the PAF. The Pakistani government should ask the Chinese government to help move some of its unprofitable (due to labor costs) textile factories to Pakistan ASAP, so that Pakistan can earn enough to buy more defense products and pay back its loans. Offsets are how Pakistan and China can both benefit.

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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> I agree, but you have to think like a Merchant and a Warrior. $4 billion for 4 squadrons may not be currently affordable for the PAF. The Pakistani government should ask the Chinese government to help move some of its unprofitable (due to labor costs) textile factories to Pakistan ASAP, so that Pakistan can earn enough to buy more defense products and pay back its loans. Offsets are how Pakistan and China can both benefit.



Hi,

That is why Paf has failed in getting the aircraft---.

Now tell me what medicine would you buy for your sick baby daughter---Rs500 for Generic---or Rs 1500 for name brand---and don't give the run around---.

And assuming---you may have a tight squeeze buying name brand---.

Be a salesman---tell china why you need these aircraft---. You will also need to get some JH7A's as well.

Pakistan is in a very critical stage of its existence---.

Get 2 sqdrn's of JH7A's and 2 sqdrn's of J10C's

Have china throw n the JH7A's for free and you just pay them for the upgrades---.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is why Paf has failed in getting the aircraft---.
> 
> Now tell me what medicine would you buy for your sick baby daughter---Rs500 for Generic---or Rs 1500 for name brand---and don't give the run around---.
> 
> And assuming---you may have a tight squeeze buying name brand---.
> 
> Be a salesman---tell china why you need these aircraft---. You will also need to get some JH7A's as well.
> 
> Pakistan is in a very critical stage of its existence---.
> 
> Get 2 sqdrn's of JH7A's and 2 sqdrn's of J10C's
> 
> Have china throw n the JH7A's for free and you just pay them for the upgrades---.



If you remember, I agreed with you, that we should get the JH-7A and upgrade them, when we were discussing the Saudi Tornado/JH-7A option for the PAF. So I agree the PAF and the government need to agree on a way to get the capabilities we need and quick. $2.5-3 Billion for 36-40 J-10 and 36-40 JH-7A upgraded with AESA radars and other modern strike capabilities may look like an attractive deal for both parties, and a deal they can approach the Chinese with. The Chinese will just have to get the Jets to the PAF over the course of say 36 months from signing such a deal, so the PAF can get the maximum utility from the jets as a qualitative hedge against the Rafale and other modernizing IAF capabilities. 

BTW; I would go half brand and half generic to answer your question.

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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> If the PAF is looking for 3 Squadrons (~51 aircraft) of Delta, why not acquire the J-10CE? In all aspect, a superior aircraft then the Mirage 2000 (arguably equal to the Rafale), and the PAF could customize it as it has when every other Chinese platform it has acquired. When the WS-15 matures, it would theoretically allow the plane to super-cruise and be as efficient to operate, if not more so, then the Eurofighters the PAF was considering a while back, but at a fraction of the price.
> 
> BTW, If Pakistan acquires 3 squadrons of J-10CE, it should also add a clause into the purchase to be able to emergency lease with the option to buy a further 3 squadrons of J-10's. A wartime resupply option could ease the burden on the PAF to have as many fighters, if they have the knowledge they can be resupplied in a matter of days, with a fresh batch of J-10s.
> 
> Something akin to the wartime resupply in the 1973 mid east war.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass
> 
> P.S. The planned purchase of 36 J-10B in 2006 was approximately $1.4 Billion or $39 million each. How much do you think the J-10CE in 2019 dollars would cost? The J-10 has a larger flight envelope then the JF-17 and is finally a mature design in the form of the J-10CE with AESA (although that fan art J-10D looked great ). 50 J-10CE would allow the PAF to break its dependence on the F-16, and for a relatively reasonable price.
> 
> Also with the added thrust planned on the WS-15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_WS-15), it could allow the J-10 to carry 2 of a smaller version of the CX-1 Missile per aircraft, far out to sea, to defend against any possibly blockade in time of crisis.
> 
> something akin to the Brahmos NG
> https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cc39f8933cc739c8167fa58b4d59e5e8.webp
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Pakistan


You may yet get your wish regarding the J10C. The question is when and I think 2020- 22 for the announcement and 2024 for the first platform arriving.


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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> You may yet get your wish regarding the J10C. The question is when and I think 2020- 22 for the announcement and 2024 for the first platform arriving.



5 years is about how long it will take to sign a deal and train up the pilots and ground crew and industrial maintenance base, but we need an interim solution as well. If we confirm we are going for the J-10 by next year or the year after, we should lease at lease 2 of squadrons of J-10A or J-10B to speed up familiarity among the Air Force. (support services can be provided by PLAAF maintainers, but less and less so as the PAF learns on the job during the lease). 

If the nation commits to buying at least 3 squadrons, then that's a decent number, but if it can only afford 2 squadrons, it should ask to acquire 2 squadrons of JH-7A and upgrade them, to fill the Long range Strike role, allowing the J-10 to function as primarily an air superiority fighter.

Preferable; 3-4 squadrons of new J-10CE at a reasonable price negotiated between the PAF and CAC; $40 million and $60 million respectively, would be an ideal situation.


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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> 5 years is about how long it will take to sign a deal and train up the pilots and ground crew and industrial maintenance base, but we need an interim solution as well. If we confirm we are going for the J-10 by next year or the year after, we should lease at lease 2 of squadrons of J-10A or J-10B to speed up familiarity among the Air Force. (support services can be provided by PLAAF maintainers, but less and less so as the PAF learns on the job during the lease).
> 
> If the nation commits to buying at least 3 squadrons, then that's a decent number, but if it can only afford 2 squadrons, it should ask to acquire 2 squadrons of JH-7A and upgrade them, to fill the Long range Strike role, allowing the J-10 to function as primarily an air superiority fighter.
> 
> Preferable; 3-4 squadrons of new J-10CE at a reasonable price negotiated between the PAF and CAC; $40 million and $60 million respectively, would be an ideal situation.


The time line takes into account the integration and infrastucture build up for the block 3. PAF will have its hands full with integrating JFT. It will not integrate another platform simultaneously. I cannot recall tye time we have done so.
A


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## fatman17

araz said:


> The time line takes into account the integration and infrastucture build up for the block 3. PAF will have its hands full with integrating JFT. It will not integrate another platform simultaneously. I cannot recall tye time we have done so.
> A


All mirage aircraft in the inventory except 2 squadrons of upgraded mirages will be decommissioned starting 2021. The Egypt mirages will be upgraded to form 1 additional squadron and the rest will be canabalised for spares. JFT block III will stand up in place of the retired mirages. FYI. 
The J10C will not be inducted as the JFT block III easily replicates the performance of the Chinese aircraft. As mentioned elsewhere, the Italians have offered a upgraded version of the EFT tranche 1, but our financial situation cannot meet the total cost of this offer.

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## R Wing

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is why Paf has failed in getting the aircraft---.
> 
> Now tell me what medicine would you buy for your sick baby daughter---Rs500 for Generic---or Rs 1500 for name brand---and don't give the run around---.
> 
> And assuming---you may have a tight squeeze buying name brand---.
> 
> Be a salesman---tell china why you need these aircraft---. You will also need to get some JH7A's as well.
> 
> Pakistan is in a very critical stage of its existence---.
> 
> Get 2 sqdrn's of JH7A's and 2 sqdrn's of J10C's
> 
> Have china throw n the JH7A's for free and you just pay them for the upgrades---.





FuturePAF said:


> If you remember, I agreed with you, that we should get the JH-7A and upgrade them, when we were discussing the Saudi Tornado/JH-7A option for the PAF. So I agree the PAF and the government need to agree on a way to get the capabilities we need and quick. $2.5-3 Billion for 36-40 J-10 and 36-40 JH-7A upgraded with AESA radars and other modern strike capabilities may look like an attractive deal for both parties, and a deal they can approach the Chinese with. The Chinese will just have to get the Jets to the PAF over the course of say 36 months from signing such a deal, so the PAF can get the maximum utility from the jets as a qualitative hedge against the Rafale and other modernizing IAF capabilities.
> 
> BTW; I would go half brand and half generic to answer your question.





araz said:


> You may yet get your wish regarding the J10C. The question is when and I think 2020- 22 for the announcement and 2024 for the first platform arriving.





FuturePAF said:


> 5 years is about how long it will take to sign a deal and train up the pilots and ground crew and industrial maintenance base, but we need an interim solution as well. If we confirm we are going for the J-10 by next year or the year after, we should lease at lease 2 of squadrons of J-10A or J-10B to speed up familiarity among the Air Force. (support services can be provided by PLAAF maintainers, but less and less so as the PAF learns on the job during the lease).
> 
> If the nation commits to buying at least 3 squadrons, then that's a decent number, but if it can only afford 2 squadrons, it should ask to acquire 2 squadrons of JH-7A and upgrade them, to fill the Long range Strike role, allowing the J-10 to function as primarily an air superiority fighter.
> 
> Preferable; 3-4 squadrons of new J-10CE at a reasonable price negotiated between the PAF and CAC; $40 million and $60 million respectively, would be an ideal situation.





araz said:


> The time line takes into account the integration and infrastucture build up for the block 3. PAF will have its hands full with integrating JFT. It will not integrate another platform simultaneously. I cannot recall tye time we have done so.
> A





fatman17 said:


> All mirage aircraft in the inventory except 2 squadrons of upgraded mirages will be decommissioned starting 2021. The Egypt mirages will be upgraded to form 1 additional squadron and the rest will be canabalised for spares. JFT block III will stand up in place of the retired mirages. FYI.
> The J10C will not be inducted as the JFT block III easily replicates the performance of the Chinese aircraft. As mentioned elsewhere, the Italians have offered a upgraded version of the EFT tranche 1, but our financial situation cannot meet the total cost of this offer.



What about the FC 31? The model at the Paris Air Show seemed to have multiple improvements and it seems to be improving/developing well every year.


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## fatman17

R Wing said:


> What about the FC 31? The model at the Paris Air Show seemed to have multiple improvements and it seems to be improving/developing well every year.


FC31 attributes will be incorporated in the project azm which is still in the planning / drawing board stage. Just as JFT program faced financial delays, expect the same for project azm.


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## JohnWick

HRK said:


> *RAAF Mirages at Whyalla destined for Pakistan *
> 
> View attachment 371247
> View attachment 371246
> View attachment 371245
> 
> 
> *RAAF A-83
> View attachment 371244
> *
> View attachment 371242
> 
> 
> *PAF 583
> View attachment 371243
> *
> View attachment 371241


We also need F-16s from different country. 
Just like the above scenario......


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## FuturePAF

R Wing said:


> What about the FC 31? The model at the Paris Air Show seemed to have multiple improvements and it seems to be improving/developing well every year.



Not yet a mature enough design (sensor fusion Avionics still not ready, 5th generation level engines not yet ready, and overall the plane has not received a green light from a Chinese buyer; PLAAF or PLANAF, so Pakistan would be taking a huge risk on an expensive platform unless the Chinese share the costs by operating the type themselves)

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## Incog_nito

I guess PAF will just be using Mirages for upcoming bombing runs near Indian and Afghan side border areas. And if something went wrong on the Iranian side then they will again be used.

Actually, PAF seems more concerned over acquiring new fighters from other countries now. To replace Mirages and later on F-16s. 

Turkish and Chinese designs are quite affordable for Pakistan.


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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> Not yet a mature enough design (sensor fusion Avionics still not ready, 5th generation level engines not yet ready, and overall the plane has not received a green light from a Chinese buyer; PLAAF or PLANAF, so Pakistan would be taking a huge risk on an expensive platform unless the Chinese share the costs by operating the type themselves)



Hi,

What is a mature design---?


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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is a mature design---?



The required systems have reached a capability sufficient to carry out the mission. The 5th generation aircraft need to be able to use their stealth in such as manner where it is a significant improvement over a reduced RCS 4th generation aircraft. Hence the need for adequate sensor fusion to identify and process threats actively and passively; kinetically or electronically. Also the engines need super cruise such that they can achieve significant range and low IR signature to reduce detection.

Finally the J-31 should be induced into the PLAAF and PLANAF before the PAF considers purchasing it, so that it is not stuck funding future development single handedly.


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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> The required systems have reached a capability sufficient to carry out the mission. The 5th generation aircraft need to be able to use their stealth in such as manner where it is a significant improvement over a reduced RCS 4th generation aircraft. Hence the need for adequate sensor fusion to identify and process threats actively and passively; kinetically or electronically. Also the engines need super cruise such that they can achieve significant range and low IR signature to reduce detection.
> 
> Finally the J-31 should be induced into the PLAAF and PLANAF before the PAF considers purchasing it, so that it is not stuck funding future development single handedly.



Hi,

Shahid Latif tells us how he got warned about any similarities between the F16 to the JF17 by the uS ambassador---.

I would not doubt if the chinese got the same warning---. The US would let you get away with a lot---but you cannot flout your stealing of the design and then strutting around in front of the US.

The chinese cannot but the Pakistanis can---JF 17 is the example---not an F16 but the JF17 body more advanced than and F16 design---. The J31 is a flying aircraft---no investment from pakistan---. Pakistan can pick this aircraft and move ahead with its own changes---in the body---skin---electronics---sensors---sensor fusion---weapons.

If some analysists don't consider it a true 5th gen design---then a new category can be created for it---.

There are 4th gen aircraft---and 4.5 gen aircraft---.

The J31 can fit into a pre-stealth / almost stealth 4.8 / 4.9 gen stealth category---which would still put it ahead of a lots of aircraft and below the F22 / F35---.

There is no such thing as a " a proven aircraft "---. A figher aircraft that is deployed in the field is a proven aircraft---.

The SIMULATED battle conditions during tests flights and simulators are as close as you can get into battle---.

So---what the aircraft will do in the simulator---it would in real time---you just have to be honest with your analysis---.

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## F86 Saber

There are a few things which cannot be disclosed on an open forum, at least i don't want to be the one doing it. PAF will not be going for any more Chinese platforms, JF-17 will mature with Block 3 and that will be the end of the joint fighter jet development with China. Our future is project Azm which is now in advance stages of design and will start bearing fruit for everyone to see in the next 3-4 years.

In the current scenario of shooting from as far as possible, we do not need heavy fighters which will appear on enemy radar earlier than they appear on ours. We already outgun India in the department of BVR range, with the gigantic size of their SU-30's and Mig-29's actually going in our favor and with the new Chinese BVR Missiles like PL-15 we will be improving on that with our existing JF-17s.
There will be no need to use fighter jets for deep strike role, we have cruise missiles for that. PAF has what it needs for now until the launch of Project Azm.

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## araz

F86 Saber said:


> There are a few things which cannot be disclosed on an open forum, at least i don't want to be the one doing it. PAF will not be going for any more Chinese platforms, JF-17 will mature with Block 3 and that will be the end of the joint fighter jet development with China. Our future is project Azm which is now in advance stages of design and will start bearing fruit for everyone to see in the next 3-4 years.
> 
> In the current scenario of shooting from as far as possible, we do not need heavy fighters which will appear on enemy radar earlier than they appear on ours. We already outgun India in the department of BVR range, with the gigantic size of their SU-30's and Mig-29's actually going in our favor and with the new Chinese BVR Missiles like PL-15 we will be improving on that with our existing JF-17s.
> There will be no need to use fighter jets for deep strike role, we have cruise missiles for that. PAF has what it needs for now until the launch of Project Azm.


I dont think anyone denies the logic of what you say. PAF is short on its replacement cycle for its legacy platforms. Knowing the intricacies of fifth generation platforms, I would be surprised if one is going to set sight on anything concrete this side of the 30s. As such do we have enough to counter the IAF development and procurement spree or do we get an intermediate jet needs to be seen. I am aware of our difficulties with the Chinese but currently we do not have any willing provider with a suitable platform. These difficulties will persist even with other buyers and as such the sooner we are on our feet the better.
A

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## F86 Saber

araz said:


> I dont think anyone denies the logic of what you say. PAF is short on its replacement cycle for its legacy platforms. Knowing the intricacies of fifth generation platforms, I would be surprised if one is going to set sight on anything concrete this side of the 30s. As such do we have enough to counter the IAF development and procurement spree or do we get an intermediate jet needs to be seen. I am aware of our difficulties with the Chinese but currently we do not have any willing provider with a suitable platform. These difficulties will persist even with other buyers and as such the sooner we are on our feet the better.
> A



Sir you are a very senior member, i consider myself a novice in this department. I never claim knowing anything, however i feel we should not discuss the "do we's" and "can we's" related to the capabilities of PAF on an open forum. We should leave the enemy guessing, let him underestimate or over estimate our capabilities, it is better for us either way which was evident on 27/2. I however might be naive saying that as there might be many Brigadier Zahoor's in PAF, but i do not want to be one of them.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Shahid Latif tells us how he got warned about any similarities between the F16 to the JF17 by the uS ambassador---.
> 
> I would not doubt if the chinese got the same warning---. The US would let you get away with a lot---but you cannot flout your stealing of the design and then strutting around in front of the US.
> 
> The chinese cannot but the Pakistanis can---JF 17 is the example---not an F16 but the JF17 body more advanced than and F16 design---. The J31 is a flying aircraft---no investment from pakistan---. Pakistan can pick this aircraft and move ahead with its own changes---in the body---skin---electronics---sensors---sensor fusion---weapons.
> 
> If some analysists don't consider it a true 5th gen design---then a new category can be created for it---.
> 
> There are 4th gen aircraft---and 4.5 gen aircraft---.
> 
> The J31 can fit into a pre-stealth / almost stealth 4.8 / 4.9 gen stealth category---which would still put it ahead of a lots of aircraft and below the F22 / F35---.
> 
> There is no such thing as a " a proven aircraft "---. A figher aircraft that is deployed in the field is a proven aircraft---.
> 
> The SIMULATED battle conditions during tests flights and simulators are as close as you can get into battle---.
> 
> So---what the aircraft will do in the simulator---it would in real time---you just have to be honest with your analysis---.



We have to be honest with ourselves, first and foremost. if we are paying for a 5th generation aircraft, we need to get a 5th generation aircraft. Otherwise the J-10CE is ready, and fulfills the 4.5 generation attributes at a fraction of the costs of a fifth generation fighter over its life-cycle. 

The PM's trip this month to salvage/build relations with the US will see where the PAF can go in terms of more F-16s, but if the US doesn't look to turn the transitional relationship into a strategic one, then the PAF will have to ditch plans of more F-16s and get a few squadrons of J-10CE.

Project AZM is similar to the British future fighter program in that it doesn't fixate on a design as such just yet. It outlines key technologies to wait and see develop before picking a design to go with. The economic challenges the nation is facing, means the PAF has to put Project AZM on the back-burner while it works its diplomatic skills in hopes of earning some hard cash. If the PAF can secure some JF-17 sales, it could buy some J-10s and customize them as they see fit (hopefully some Turkish EW pods, and other electronics from their TF-X program as they become available ... giving the PAF the best 4.5 gen fighter in the neighborhood). 

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/MEHPOD_Indigenous_Electronic_Warfare_Pod_8628.pdf

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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> We have to be honest with ourselves, first and foremost. if we are paying for a 5th generation aircraft, we need to get a 5th generation aircraft. Otherwise the J-10CE is ready, and fulfills the 4.5 generation attributes at a fraction of the costs of a fifth generation fighter over its life-cycle.
> 
> The PM's trip this month to salvage/build relations with the US will see where the PAF can go in terms of more F-16s, but if the US doesn't look to turn the transitional relationship into a strategic one, then the PAF will have to ditch plans of more F-16s and get a few squadrons of J-10CE.
> 
> Project AZM is similar to the British future fighter program in that it doesn't fixate on a design as such just yet. It outlines key technologies to wait and see develop before picking a design to go with. The economic challenges the nation is facing, means the PAF has to put Project AZM on the back-burner while it works its diplomatic skills in hopes of earning some hard cash. If the PAF can secure some JF-17 sales, it could buy some J-10s and customize them as they see fit (hopefully some Turkish EW pods, and other electronics from their TF-X program as they become available ... giving the PAF the best 4.5 gen fighter in the neighborhood).
> 
> https://www.aselsan.com.tr/MEHPOD_Indigenous_Electronic_Warfare_Pod_8628.pdf



Hi,

When the warriors of a nation hedge their bets for not procuring a weapons system in a timely manner---just because they assumed & assessed that the chance of war is very little---that means serious trouble for the welfare of the nation---.

This mindset never worked in any part of history and will never work in modern history either---.

Lesson to be learnt is---never ever stop from buying your weapons in a timely manner---and never stop the procurement for any under the table money transfer as long as the weapon is a quality weapon and is a needed weapon---.

Something has come up recently---& I pray that things don't take a turn for the drastic---but some of the Paf chiefs of the past have put the country in a weak defensive position---.

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## Rafael

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When the warriors of a nation hedge their bets for not procuring a weapons system in a timely---just because they assumed & assessed that the chance of war is very little---that means serious trouble for the welfare of the nation---.
> 
> This mindset never worked in any part of history and will never work in modern history either---.
> 
> Lesson to be learnt is---never ever stop from buying your weapons in a timely manner---and never stop the procurement for any under the table money transfer as long as the weapon is a quality weapon and is a needed weapon---.
> 
> Something has come up recently---& I pray that things don't take a turn for the drastic---but some of the Paf chiefs of the past have put the country in a weak defensive position---.



Can you please elaborate?


----------



## araz

F86 Saber said:


> Sir you are a very senior member, i consider myself a novice in this department. I never claim knowing anything, however i feel we should not discuss the "do we's" and "can we's" related to the capabilities of PAF on an open forum. We should leave the enemy guessing, let him underestimate or over estimate our capabilities, it is better for us either way which was evident on 27/2. I however might be naive saying that as there might be many Brigadier Zahoor's in PAF, but i do not want to be one of them.


On a defence forum we debate how things should look from our perspective. If you dont discuss this there is no point in having a defence forum. All we write is based on our own interpretation of what the armed forces will do. This does not include any confidential knowledge. The people in the know sit very quietly and only let out snippets as and when they feel it is appropriate. Still does not prevent people from getting into trouble though.
A



FuturePAF said:


> We have to be honest with ourselves, first and foremost. if we are paying for a 5th generation aircraft, we need to get a 5th generation aircraft. Otherwise the J-10CE is ready, and fulfills the 4.5 generation attributes at a fraction of the costs of a fifth generation fighter over its life-cycle.
> 
> The PM's trip this month to salvage/build relations with the US will see where the PAF can go in terms of more F-16s, but if the US doesn't look to turn the transitional relationship into a strategic one, then the PAF will have to ditch plans of more F-16s and get a few squadrons of J-10CE.
> 
> Project AZM is similar to the British future fighter program in that it doesn't fixate on a design as such just yet. It outlines key technologies to wait and see develop before picking a design to go with. The economic challenges the nation is facing, means the PAF has to put Project AZM on the back-burner while it works its diplomatic skills in hopes of earning some hard cash. If the PAF can secure some JF-17 sales, it could buy some J-10s and customize them as they see fit (hopefully some Turkish EW pods, and other electronics from their TF-X program as they become available ... giving the PAF the best 4.5 gen fighter in the neighborhood).
> 
> https://www.aselsan.com.tr/MEHPOD_Indigenous_Electronic_Warfare_Pod_8628.pdf


A couple of points to note. 
Firstly PAF cannot and will not delay Project Azm beyond that which is absolutely necessary. The technological leaps involved in achieving our ends with a tangible 5th generation fighter are a real challange to our nascent aviation industry. However we will lok to achieving our ends in the most expedient manner possible.
Regarding the J10C I doubt you will get the same leeway from the Chinese with regards to integrating foreign software/hardware as you have on the JFT. You will have to ask the OEM to do that but the Turks will not allow that integration. So the negotiations for what goes on the J10 are going to be pivotal and indeed a reflection of Pak Chinese collaboration in the current era as the Chinese are becoming more and more secretive about their high end products. However let us wait and see how the cards fall on this hand. 
Regards
A

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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> On a defence forum we debate how things should look from our perspective. If you dont discuss this there is no point in having a defence forum. All we write is based on our own interpretation of what the armed forces will do. This does not include any confidential knowledge. The people in the know sit very quietly and only let out snippets as and when they feel it is appropriate. Still does not prevent people from getting into trouble though.
> A
> 
> 
> A couple of points to note.
> Firstly PAF cannot and will not delay Project Azm beyond that which is absolutely necessary. The technological leaps involved in achieving our ends with a tangible 5th generation fighter are a real challange to our nascent aviation industry. However we will lok to achieving our ends in the most expedient manner possible.
> Regarding the J10C I doubt you will get the same leeway from the Chinese with regards to integrating foreign software/hardware as you have on the JFT. You will have to ask the OEM to do that but the Turks will not allow that integration. So the negotiations for what goes on the J10 are going to be pivotal and indeed a reflection of Pak Chinese collaboration in the current era as the Chinese are becoming more and more secretive about their high end products. However let us wait and see how the cards fall on this hand.
> Regards
> A



I hope your right, and the PAF isn't prevented from procuring the equipment or investing in future projects, it needs to keep the nation safe, in a timely manner. It may be possible to put some key Turkish sub-systems on the J-10CE. PAC and PAF will have to work out some technology transfer from the Turks and do the integration work at Kamra, themselves. Right now it is a wait and see approach. PAF may have to settle with Pod based EW equipment to satisfy both allies.


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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When the warriors of a nation hedge their bets for not procuring a weapons system in a timely---just because they assumed & assessed that the chance of war is very little---that means serious trouble for the welfare of the nation---.
> 
> This mindset never worked in any part of history and will never work in modern history either---.
> 
> Lesson to be learnt is---never ever stop from buying your weapons in a timely manner---and never stop the procurement for any under the table money transfer as long as the weapon is a quality weapon and is a needed weapon---.
> 
> Something has come up recently---& I pray that things don't take a turn for the drastic---but some of the Paf chiefs of the past have put the country in a weak defensive position---.



MK, would love it if you would explain the red part. Would really appreciate it. Nothing classified but something that can help us understand. Is it related to the Israeli pilot we have frozen? Is it related to the oil we have found in the sea?
Is it related to having a first independent and honest leader since... Suharwardy?
Is it related to the strategic reallignment and how China isn't being like the old all weather friend anymore?

Also, could you please also explain what kind of threat JFT program faced from the US? This is a piece of history that is still clouded. And what did PAF do about it?


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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> MK, would love it if you would explain the red part. Would really appreciate it. Nothing classified but something that can help us understand. Is it related to the Israeli pilot we have frozen? Is it related to the oil we have found in the sea?
> Is it related to having a first independent and honest leader since... Suharwardy?
> Is it related to the strategic reallignment and how China isn't being like the old all weather friend anymore?
> 
> Also, could you please also explain what kind of threat JFT program faced from the US? This is a piece of history that is still clouded. And what did PAF do about it?




Hi,

For the JFT program---Shahid Latif's interview gives out a clear picture of what happened---how he did it---and how the project progressed---.

I would praise the ACM who picked him up and gave him the job of the project director---because Shahid Latif was and is a fearless do it right a 'hole who cares less about anyone except for the target ahead of him and does not bend to pressure has the mind and brains to adjust according to the situation and yet does not budge from what he is demanding---.

We thank the US for teaching us how to fish & thanks china to give us the hook line & sinker---. The only thing we had to do was to find our WORM---which we did---.

As for the other part----just imagine that the MONGOL army has set its tents outside the city of OTRAR---.

The fears for which I have been crying out loud for the last 14 years on this forum---have become a reality now---.

I am just surprised and shocked how this information was missed out---or maybe it is just me that I did not know when it happened---.

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## TheTallGuy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For the JFT program---Shahid Latif's interview gives out a clear picture of what happened---how he did it---and how the project progressed---.
> 
> I would praise the ACM who picked him up and gave him the job of the project director---because Shahid Latif was and is a fearless do it right a 'hole who cares less about anyone except for the target ahead of him and does not bend to pressure has the mind and brains to adjust according to the situation and yet does not budge from what he is demanding---.
> 
> We thank the US for teaching us how to fish & thanks china to give us the hook line & sinker---. The only thing we had to do was to find our WORM---which we did---.
> 
> As for the other part----just imagine that the MONGOL army has set its tents outside the city of OTRAR---.
> 
> The fears for which I have been crying out loud for the last 14 years on this forum---have become a reality now---.
> 
> I am just surprised and shocked how this information was missed out---or maybe it is just me that I did not see its coming---.



Mastan Sb,
There are some who have taken these ayats to there heart. dont worry as Quaid-e-Azam R.A said "There is no power on this Earth that can undo Pakistan"

*Surah Anfal*
"And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners."

*Surah Al Sharh*
Therefore, surely there is ease with hardship.Undoubtedly, there is ease with hardship.


wait and see you will be proud upon people of motherland.

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## MastanKhan

TheTallGuy said:


> Mastan Sb,
> There are some who have taken these ayats to there heart. dont worry as Quaid-e-Azam R.A said "There is no power on this Earth that can undo Pakistan"
> 
> *Surah Anfal*
> "And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners."
> 
> *Surah Al Sharh*
> Therefore, surely there is ease with hardship.Undoubtedly, there is ease with hardship.
> 
> 
> wait and see you will be proud upon people of motherland.



Hi,

For the second part to happen---there has to be JUSTICE & RULE of Law---the implementation of the writ of the state---.

And that is not an islamic state---.

IK is personally very weak on law & order situation---very very weak---.

Fortunes of nations are not built lackadaisical approach towards Law & order---.

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## Leclan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are thinking like a MERCHANT / KAROBARI & NOT A WARRIOR---.
> 
> Price is fair---not the best---. Pakistan needs to create an urge of importance with the chinese ambassador to get the price worked at and get a deal done asap---. A gd number would be around 4 sqdrn's---.
> 
> But for the need---then price is secondary---.
> 
> Remember---BLK3 is a longways away---. Just because it would be going into production in 2020---does not mean that the Pilot & the aircraft JF17 BLK3 would be ready for combat---.
> 
> OTOH---the enemy Rafale coming in would be combat ready---.


in recent days a quality answer like u sir is rare and rare.
our new Pak netizens seem to not consider china as trustful partener, but a cunning merchant. meanwhile they want china to act as a dump rich guy who would send high quality equipment just for free, or at some sort of loans which pakistan wont cost what it should cost.

on one hand,they dont trust china on selling equipment at a fair price, on the other hand, they thought china should fulfil its obligation to help Pakistan for free. “all weather friend" is a word used by them to describe china's obligation，not Pakistan's.

well, in this situation, these netizens would never get the best equipment they want. just pay the fair price for western weapon is a better choice.

here if china play as a cunning businessman ,why would China bother upgrading JF17? we could just abondon it and send a FC31 ppt （not even to make a demonstrator ） for Pakistan and bragging a bright future （just like Turkey's TFX and Korea's KFX or even fance-german 5-gen plan）. we can save talent guy who are still working on JF17 to work on the J20 upgrading and J11upgrading.
the trust between two countries should really be cherished,not be damaged by some fantasy netizens.

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## HRK

Leclan said:


> in recent days a quality answer like u sir is rare and rare.
> our new Pak netizens seem to not consider china as trustful partener, but a cunning merchant. meanwhile they want china to act as a dump rich guy who would send high quality equipment just for free, or at some sort of loans which pakistan wont cost what it should cost.
> 
> on one hand,they dont trust china on selling equipment at a fair price, on the other hand, they thought china should fulfil its obligation to help Pakistan for free. “all weather friend" is a word used by them to describe china's obligation，not Pakistan's.


a wrong assessment of Pakistani thinking ...

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For the JFT program---Shahid Latif's interview gives out a clear picture of what happened---how he did it---and how the project progressed---.
> 
> I would praise the ACM who picked him up and gave him the job of the project director---because Shahid Latif was and is a fearless do it right a 'hole who cares less about anyone except for the target ahead of him and does not bend to pressure has the mind and brains to adjust according to the situation and yet does not budge from what he is demanding---.
> 
> We thank the US for teaching us how to fish & thanks china to give us the hook line & sinker---. The only thing we had to do was to find our WORM---which we did---.
> 
> As for the other part----just imagine that the MONGOL army has set its tents outside the city of OTRAR---.
> 
> The fears for which I have been crying out loud for the last 14 years on this forum---have become a reality now---.
> 
> I am just surprised and shocked how this information was missed out---or maybe it is just me that I did not know when it happened---.



MK thank you for the reply. I am trying to search for the Shahid Latif interview, I've watched 5 of them but none mentioned the same. I'll search some more perhaps your posts. 

I'm also trying to dig out your posts to see what you mean by the Mongol tents coming together - that a major invasion is about to start - from India or the West... or both? 

My best guess as of now is that you mean that the Zionists / West will destroy Iran and Pak will then be the last target left. 

_on to look through your posts of 14 years._


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## MastanKhan

Leclan said:


> in recent days a quality answer like u sir is rare and rare.
> our new Pak netizens seem to not consider china as trustful partener, but a cunning merchant. meanwhile they want china to act as a dump rich guy who would send high quality equipment just for free, or at some sort of loans which pakistan wont cost what it should cost.
> 
> on one hand,they dont trust china on selling equipment at a fair price, on the other hand, they thought china should fulfil its obligation to help Pakistan for free. “all weather friend" is a word used by them to describe china's obligation，not Pakistan's.
> 
> well, in this situation, these netizens would never get the best equipment they want. just pay the fair price for western weapon is a better choice.
> 
> here if china play as a cunning businessman ,why would China bother upgrading JF17? we could just abondon it and send a FC31 ppt （not even to make a demonstrator ） for Pakistan and bragging a bright future （just like Turkey's TFX and Korea's KFX or even fance-german 5-gen plan）. we can save talent guy who are still working on JF17 to work on the J20 upgrading and J11upgrading.
> the trust between two countries should really be cherished,not be damaged by some fantasy netizens.



Hi,

I have been writing on this forum for over a decade---. One of my biggest area of concern was a lack of security commitment to Gwadar port by both the parties---pakistan / China. Both showed a lackadaisical approach towards it for the longest time till the day the chinese navy ships were visiting the port and an indian sub was found lurking in the pakistan waters years ago---.

That was a shocker for both the countries---which resulted in signing of the 8 submarine deal and then later a deal for 4 type 054 frigates---. What is missing here is heavy naval strike platform like the JH7A's---.

The govt of Zardari in the past had no interest in making a deal with china---he was only into making money---.

Nawaz had his interests in India---so he was least concerned about the issue---and that put china in a very difficult position---. 

A tactful / resourceful operator on pakistan's side would have made china supply more tier 1 weaponry to pakistan for covering Gwadar to cover the interest of both the nations at a very nominal cost which in the end would have been covered by china---. By Tier 1 I mean aircraft---. I would rather have 50 + fully upgraded JH7A's naval version than anything else at this time sitting at Pasni & Masroor---.

If china claims pakistan to be china's israel---then it will have to pay the price as well---. Pakistan will also have to learn to accept its power position in the region and will have to act on it as well---. Staying and acting neutral will end in the demise of pakistan's power base---. Pakistan will still exist---but without any teeth---.

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## MastanKhan

Today at 12:04 PM#1921

Hi,

I am going to add to the above post---. Both pak navy and chinese navy knew about incursions by the indian navy---and they had happened many a times before---but did not become public knowledge---so there was no raising of any concern or fear---.

But when this old beat up indian sub broke down in pakistani waters---in a NON THREATENING area---that became a major cause of concern---and that is where my second sub theory came out---why was this sub surfacing in a non threatening area---why was this old sub even in the region---why did it pop up---and who was it creating a diversion for---where was the elusive second sub that this was covering up for---???

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## umair86

People here putting too much faith in JF-17 if had been that great we would have used it to down IAF planes which we didn't. It proved one thing that it is a low tier jet and cannot fight against heavy hitters like SU-30MKI here comes in the Falcon which has been keeping the technological fight with Indians at bay for las our decades until Rafale and S400 comes in than game over for us and what we are looking at Project AZM is just a fantasy we don't have the industrial base to undertake such an ambitious project on our own we need a partner and West is not willing to come in only leaves China which is struggling itself to produce sufficient engines. We are only day dreaming we should have inducted J-10 long ago as JF-17 is not at par with it. A J-10 with an AESA radar and hybrid of east and west technology can give us some time stand up against the Indians until AZM sees the day of light.

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## denel

umair86 said:


> People here putting too much faith in JF-17 if had been that great we would have used it to down IAF planes which we didn't. It proved one thing that it is a low tier jet and cannot fight against heavy hitters like SU-30MKI here comes in the Falcon which has been keeping the technological fight with Indians at bay for las our decades until Rafale and S400 comes in than game over for us and what we are looking at Project AZM is just a fantasy we don't have the industrial base to undertake such an ambitious project on our own we need a partner and West is not willing to come in only leaves China which is struggling itself to produce sufficient engines. We are only day dreaming we should have inducted J-10 long ago as JF-17 is not at par with it. A J-10 with an AESA radar and hybrid of east and west technology can give us some time stand up against the Indians until AZM sees the day of light.


Yes concur, and @MastanKhan and i have said jh-7s are a must to allow for deep strike and long range patrol. jf-17 is not a all solve machine; it is limited by its size; j-10 allows a counter balance to rafales and is a different beast in overall performance.

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1147502818053332992

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## nomi007

@*Windjammer *any chance of qatari mirages for paf

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## Adam_Khan

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1147502818053332992



Guys from CCS mirage have infact scored simulated kills against both F.16's and JF.17's many times, these guys are seriously good at what they're doing.

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## HawkEye27

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1147502818053332992








HD Version

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## denel

Chingez Khan said:


> Guys from CCS mirage have infact scored simulated kills against both F.16's and JF.17's many times, these guys are seriously good at what they're doing.


Yes there is a difference between these vs Su's/M2k which can take them on at standoff range.

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## sneakerspark

Found this picture that i took during 14th Aug Airshow in Islamabad.

Mirage in a vertical climb while releasing flares.

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## HawkEye27

denel said:


> Yes there is a difference between these vs Su's/M2k which can take them on at standoff range.



Whole IAF is not Su-30/Rafales. There are Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Jaguars which these Mirage will tear apart


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## Adam_Khan

denel said:


> Yes there is a difference between these vs Su's/M2k which can take them on at standoff range.



They're certainly not a match against any modern 4th generation fighter.

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## denel

HawkEye27 said:


> Whole IAF is not Su-30/Rafales. There are Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Jaguars which these Mirage will tear apart


Not really.


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## Armchair

I think the SU-35 deal can replace the Mirages in the South - my guess is, if it happens, it is in lieu of Russian interest in getting access to the Gwader port.


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## denel

Armchair said:


> I think the SU-35 deal can replace the Mirages in the South - my guess is, if it happens, it is in lieu of Russian interest in getting access to the Gwader port.


no, they already have access to indian ports. su35 is ideal but geopolitiks is at a strange cross road at present.

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## Armchair

denel said:


> no, they already have access to indian ports. su35 is ideal but geopolitiks is at a strange cross road at present.



It has been a long-term objective of the Russians to gain access to warm water ports. This does not mean any warm water ports, it means warm water ports that would allow them to have a direct land route to Russia. This was one of the strategic objectives of the Soviet Union, that they nearly accomplished with their invasion into Afghanistan... 

The Belt and Road will allow Russia to gain such access via Gwadar,

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## GriffinsRule

There wont be any purchase of Russian Su series aircraft as Pakistan will then get sanctioned under CAATSA which we can ill-afford at the moment.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> There wont be any purchase of Russian Su series aircraft as Pakistan will then get sanctioned under CAATSA which we can ill-afford at the moment.


Eygpt is buying both mig 35 and Su35

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## GriffinsRule

mingle said:


> Eygpt is buying both mig 35 and Su35


The Migs were ordered before the law went into effect. As for now the Sukhoi deal has not been formally annouced and when it does, you will hear the noises coming from the US.

https://worldview.stratfor.com/arti...atens-caatsa-sanctions-over-russian-arms-deal

Egypt is also a special case due to their proximity and peace treaty with Israel and the Suez Canal. US may even grant them a waiver but certainly would not in Pakistan's case.

PS: I am not saying we should not buy from Russia, but in the event we do, we need to make sure our armed forces' readiness if not impacted the way it was in the 1990s, especially not when India-Pakistan relations are the worst in decades. Given our current situation it is very unlikely we will have any major purchases of Russian offensive weaponry. Just my assumptions here.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> The Migs were ordered before the law went into effect. As for now the Sukhoi deal has not been formally annouced and when it does, you will hear the noises coming from the US.
> 
> https://worldview.stratfor.com/arti...atens-caatsa-sanctions-over-russian-arms-deal
> 
> Egypt is also a special case due to their proximity and peace treaty with Israel and the Suez Canal. US may even grant them a waiver but certainly would not in Pakistan's case.
> 
> PS: I am not saying we should not buy from Russia, but in the event we do, we need to make sure our armed forces' readiness if not impacted the way it was in the 1990s, especially not when India-Pakistan relations are the worst in decades. Given our current situation it is very unlikely we will have any major purchases of Russian offensive weaponry. Just my assumptions here.


Regardless sanctions I am not supporter of Russian jets if we need more EU option EF or if Trump administration sells Pak more F16 blk 70.


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## araz

mingle said:


> Eygpt is buying both mig 35 and Su35


This is a very haphazard way of doing things. No wonder they cannot maintain their platforms!!Speaking of M3/5s does anyone have any information on whehter the M3/5s bought from EAF are the upgraded ones or just for spares.
A

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## denel

araz said:


> This is a very haphazard way of doing things. No wonder they cannot maintain their platforms!!Speaking of M3/5s does anyone have any information on whehter the M3/5s bought from EAF are the upgraded ones or just for spares.
> A


A.
From what i read, there are approx 30 odd which are all mod'ed but still given how EAF maintains their aircraft, how many are salvagable; the others - that was a question mark as well; mostly for spares

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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> There wont be any purchase of Russian Su series aircraft as Pakistan will then get sanctioned under CAATSA which we can ill-afford at the moment.



This may not be a problem. If you read between the lines, IK is making a major shift in diplomacy and alliances. We are getting closer to the Russians. If Pak wants to avoid CAATSA, she can always use China as a conduit - i.e. Pak buying a section of Chinese Su-35 in China's next purchase of the same jet.


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## denel

Armchair said:


> This may not be a problem. If you read between the lines, IK is making a major shift in diplomacy and alliances. We are getting closer to the Russians. If Pak wants to avoid CAATSA, she can always use China as a conduit - i.e. Pak buying a section of Chinese Su-35 in China's next purchase of the same jet.


Let us see how his visit and meeting with TIT goes; given how much flex and candidity IK will have with TIT; he may be able to get a lot out as TIT needs a face saving measure in the protracted engagement in Afghanistan.

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## araz

denel said:


> A.
> From what i read, there are approx 30 odd which are all mod'ed but still given how EAF maintains their aircraft, how many are salvagable; the others - that was a question mark as well; mostly for spares


Denel.
There are 70 odd M3/5s in EAF inventory. They have only upgraded30 odd. So the question is are these the ones that are being sold. Given how PAF has pounced they maybe . The RC400 radar on them is a decent radar and even if we dont have the platform the radar and other possible goodies might come in handy. However if it is the nonupgraded ones it would be safe to assume they are mostly for spares.
Regards
A

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## Armchair

If you look through the threads, insiders have mentioned the Horus are coming along with some others. Horus will be put in PAF service.

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## denel

araz said:


> Denel.
> There are 70 odd M3/5s in EAF inventory. They have only upgraded30 odd. So the question is are these the ones that are being sold. Given how PAF has pounced they maybe . The RC400 radar on them is a decent radar and even if we dont have the platform the radar and other possible goodies might come in handy. However if it is the nonupgraded ones it would be safe to assume they are mostly for spares.
> Regards
> A


correct. that was same question i had posed a month back; this appears to be a gray area. I suspect entire fleet is up for transfer; if they sell the 30 off upgraded; what about the rest which are probably not flyable.

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## araz

denel said:


> correct. that was same question i had posed a month back; this appears to be a gray area. I suspect entire fleet is up for transfer; if they sell the 30 off upgraded; what about the rest which are probably not flyable.


I would tend to agree with you. It maybe that once the Horus come through the utility of the rest of the platforms would be mjnimal and PAF might be able to get a deal. The EAF MIGHT have asked them to buy the scrap ones first. So it all depends on negotiations. I suspect people are right that Horus inducted and cleaned up by MRF might provide us with 2 squadrons of BVR capable fighters and while not ideal they might give us some breathing space.
A


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## denel

araz said:


> I would tend to agree with you. It maybe that once the Horus come through the utility of the rest of the platforms would be mjnimal and PAF might be able to get a deal. The EAF MIGHT have asked them to buy the scrap ones first. So it all depends on negotiations. I suspect people are right that Horus inducted and cleaned up by MRF might provide us with 2 squadrons of BVR capable fighters and while not ideal they might give us some breathing space.
> A


yes. the other question is if they are moving over AAMs tied to their HMDS and for BVRs or not and if there are existing aams for that purpose internally as well. It will need to under go a complete refurbishment to get a new lease of life.

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## araz

denel said:


> yes. the other question is if they are moving over AAMs tied to their HMDS and for BVRs or not and if there are existing aams for that purpose internally as well. It will need to under go a complete refurbishment to get a new lease of life.


Can we not get arms from Italy? Isuspect RD400 will share compatibility with most western armaments .
I do think that the armaments will not be transferred as they can be utilized by the Rafale. So let us see how this pans out
A

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## mshan44



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## Armchair

denel said:


> yes. the other question is if they are moving over AAMs tied to their HMDS and for BVRs or not and if there are existing aams for that purpose internally as well. It will need to under go a complete refurbishment to get a new lease of life.



The Brazilian AAMs and Sidewinders can both be, to some limited extent, be used with HMS.



araz said:


> Can we not get arms from Italy? Isuspect RD400 will share compatibility with most western armaments .
> I do think that the armaments will not be transferred as they can be utilized by the Rafale. So let us see how this pans out
> A



If we could somehow source the Meteor - it may be theoretically possible to mate it with the RC-400, even though that would not allow it to be used even at half its range. Perhaps add datalinks and AWACs, and you have a formidable alternative to the PL-15 and AMRAAM.


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## denel

Armchair said:


> The Brazilian AAMs and Sidewinders can both be, to some limited extent, be used with HMS.
> 
> 
> 
> If we could somehow source the Meteor - it may be theoretically possible to mate it with the RC-400, even though that would not allow it to be used even at half its range. Perhaps add datalinks and AWACs, and you have a formidable alternative to the PL-15 and AMRAAM.


Darters can definitely be mated.

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## Army research

Armchair said:


> The Brazilian AAMs and Sidewinders can both be, to some limited extent, be used with HMS.
> 
> 
> 
> If we could somehow source the Meteor - it may be theoretically possible to mate it with the RC-400, even though that would not allow it to be used even at half its range. Perhaps add datalinks and AWACs, and you have a formidable alternative to the PL-15 and AMRAAM.


No way, the French aren't gonna give us meteors with the Indian having had purchased rafales


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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> The Brazilian AAMs and Sidewinders can both be, to some limited extent, be used with HMS.
> 
> 
> 
> If we could somehow source the Meteor - it may be theoretically possible to mate it with the RC-400, even though that would not allow it to be used even at half its range. Perhaps add datalinks and AWACs, and you have a formidable alternative to the PL-15 and AMRAAM.


Why would you equip a 3 million dollar missile on such an old aircraft ? Its not worth it

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## Path-Finder

Strange thing is there was an indian front who used to mock our mirage fleet and many of us used to say that these Mirage need to go. However after 27 Feb there has been a renewed sense of purpose in these aircraft!

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## Armchair

Army research said:


> No way, the French aren't gonna give us meteors with the Indian having had purchased rafales





Army research said:


> No way, the French aren't gonna give us meteors with the Indian having had purchased rafales



This is a misunderstanding of how European defense industries, which are multi-country affairs, work. Basically, to put it simply, Italy or UK could sell us these missiles, without problems from the French.

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## The Accountant

Path-Finder said:


> Strange thing is there was an indian front who used to mock our mirage fleet and many of us used to say that these Mirage need to. However after 27 Feb there has been a renewed sense of purpose in these aircraft!


Why r u forgetting the frequent accidents we are having from mirrages


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## Army research

Armchair said:


> This is a misunderstanding of how European defense industries, which are multi-country affairs, work. Basically, to put it simply, Italy or UK could sell us these missiles, without problems from the French.


Is the meteor not French only? I was unaware it's a europroject, i know the missile itself inside out but always thought the French made it

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## Armchair

denel said:


> Darters can definitely be mated.



Denel it is ironic that once upon a time, both the RC-400 and the Darters were slated for the JF-17!

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## Path-Finder

The Accountant said:


> Why r u forgetting the frequest accidents we are having from mirrages


they still have a use and no wonder its not retired yet!


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## The Accountant

There is no doubt they are still good strike fighters but are 50 years old and life of our fighter is much more important ... we need to replace them with more modern and secured fighter.

I bet you in a case of conflict there is a huge risk of loosing mirrages more in accident and less in conflicts ... furthermore they also have very limited self defence capability which means even to strike they need an escort


Path-Finder said:


> they still have a use and no wonder its not retired yet!


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## CHI RULES

The Accountant said:


> There is no doubt they are still good strike fighters but are 50 years old and life of our fighter is much more important ... we need to replace them with more modern and secured fighter.
> 
> I bet you in a case of conflict there is a huge risk of loosing mirrages more in accident and less in conflicts ... furthermore they also have very limited self defence capability which means even to strike they need an escort



Sir main issue is engine if Pak gets new engines/radars even then it shall be economical to upgrade them.


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## The Accountant

New radar means upgrading all avionics and weapon systems ... you are asking to fit new heart btain and eyes on existing body which has already passed its life ... not worth the investment ...


CHI RULES said:


> Sir main issue is engine if Pak gets new engines/radars even then it shall be economical to upgrade them.


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## Path-Finder

The Accountant said:


> There is no doubt they are still good strike fighters but are 50 years old and life of our fighter is much more important ... we need to replace them with more modern and secured fighter.
> 
> I bet you in a case of conflict there is a huge risk of loosing mirrages more in accident and less in conflicts ... furthermore they also have very limited self defence capability which means even to strike they need an escort


an alternative to them might not be so forthcoming any time soon.

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## CHI RULES

The Accountant said:


> New radar means upgrading all avionics and weapon systems ... you are asking to fit new heart btain and eyes on existing body which has already passed its life ... not worth the investment ...



Pakistan has MRO facilities already and if at economical rate Pak gets almost new bomber then it is not big deal same things done by Iran and N. Korea. Similarly Isreali Kafir is also a similar example which is available with much enhanced capabilities at lower price to poor countries. More over India is also upgrading Jaguars.

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## The Accountant

CHI RULES said:


> Pakistan has MRO facilities already and if at economical rate Pak gets almost new bomber then it is not big deal same things done by Iran and N. Korea. Similarly Isreali Kafir is also a similar example which is available with much enhanced capabilities at lower price to poor countries. More over India is also upgrading Jaguars.


Bhai with new radar and engine these MRO facility will need heavy upgradation training and re configuration ...

By the way how will it be new aircraft ? It has a 50 years old airframe ... metal has its own fatigue limits ... we have already by passed them ...

North korea and iran are doing this out of necessity as they have no other option but in case of war will they be effective ? They will crash more by accidents

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## CHI RULES

The Accountant said:


> Bhai with new radar and engine these MRO facility will need heavy upgradation training and re configuration ...
> 
> By the way how will it be new aircraft ? It has a 50 years old airframe ... metal has its own fatigue limits ... we have already by passed them ...
> 
> North korea and iran are doing this out of necessity as they have no other option but in case of war will they be effective ? They will crash more by accidents


Sir still news are there they shall remain in use till 2025 or beyond, we have already got agreement with Egypt of Mirage Horus, you can't ignore the ground realities.

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## The Accountant

CHI RULES said:


> Sir still news are there they shall remain in use till 2025 or beyond, we have already got agreement with Egypt of Mirage Horus, you can't ignore the ground realities.


yes because we need other aircrafts to replace them. do you know that even if we start the engine and radar replacement work even today, it might get completed by 2025 by the time air frame life will already be over

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## GriffinsRule

The Accountant said:


> Why r u forgetting the frequent accidents we are having from mirrages


There have been 0 Mirage crashes in over two years now. The last accident was on 5/2/2017.

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## The Accountant

CHI RULES said:


> Sir still news are there they shall remain in use till 2025 or beyond, we have already got agreement with Egypt of Mirage Horus, you can't ignore the ground realities.


yes because we need other aircrafts to replace them. do you know that even if we start the engine and radar replacement work even today, it might get completed by 2025 by the time air frame life will already be over

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## mshan44



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## Fatima Khan0007

DANGER-ZONE said:


> ROSE upgrade mirage can also load Pakistan made RAAD and H4.
> long range cruise missile and bomb.
> 
> H4
> View attachment 111337
> 
> 
> RAAD
> View attachment 111338
> 
> 
> ASM AM-39 Exocet
> View attachment 111339


Amazing...


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## Armchair

One solution is to take a JFT airframe and put a Mirage wing on it. A tailless delta variant with massive fuel tanks F-16 style, conformally. This would be an ultimate hybrid aircraft that would be a very potent strike aircraft.

Think of the space and load carrying capacity and range that this could achieve...


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## Imran Khan

We should retired them now


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## Bossman

Armchair said:


> One solution is to take a JFT airframe and put a Mirage wing on it. A tailless delta variant with massive fuel tanks F-16 style, conformally. This would be an ultimate hybrid aircraft that would be a very potent strike aircraft.
> 
> Think of the space and load carrying capacity and range that this could achieve...


Don’t be silly. Learn something about aircraft design.

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## The Accountant

F


Armchair said:


> One solution is to take a JFT airframe and put a Mirage wing on it. A tailless delta variant with massive fuel tanks F-16 style, conformally. This would be an ultimate hybrid aircraft that would be a very potent strike aircraft.
> 
> Think of the space and load carrying capacity and range that this could achieve...


For God sake ... do u have any idea what r u talking about ?

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## Armchair

Bossman said:


> Don’t be silly. Learn something about aircraft design.



We should try to make this place a forum of mature and educated people. Who do not attack the person but discuss ideas. Perhaps you can write more than "don't be silly" and "learn more" otherwise the level of discussion in this forum will go to the level of 5th grade students.


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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> We should try to make this place a forum of mature and educated people. Who do not attack the person but discuss ideas. Perhaps you can write more than "don't be silly" and "learn more" otherwise the level of discussion in this forum will go to the level of 5th grade students.


No offence but the suggestion you gave clearly shows that you have not even a slight idea of aircraft designing. So rather than being mad at him, kindly respect those who understand these basics and try to learn ...


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## Bossman

Armchair said:


> We should try to make this place a forum of mature and educated people. Who do not attack the person but discuss ideas. Perhaps you can write more than "don't be silly" and "learn more" otherwise the level of discussion in this forum will go to the level of 5th grade students.


When you wrote a 5th grader interested in planes will not write.


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## araz

Armchair said:


> We should try to make this place a forum of mature and educated people. Who do not attack the person but discuss ideas. Perhaps you can write more than "don't be silly" and "learn more" otherwise the level of discussion in this forum will go to the level of 5th grade students.


Changing a JFT with delta wings will alter its whole balance and COG, flight characteristics amongst other things. This would then require redesigning and testing.
PAF had the experience to ask for a delta fighter. However they opted for a hassle free approach and went for the JFT current design. They would not want to reinvent the wheel.
We certainly do not have the money and capacity to run 2 programmes side by side so do we shut down the current JFT setup and redesignate and test the fighter as a delta fighter? We will open a whole Pandora's box which we can ill afford at the moment.
So if we want a delta best to get an off the shelf product from somewhere.
A

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## Armchair

araz said:


> Changing a JFT with delta wings will alter its whole balance and COG, flight characteristics amongst other things. This would then require redesigning and testing.
> PAF had the experience to ask for a delta fighter. However they opted for a hassle free approach and went for the JFT current design. They would not want to reinvent the wheel.
> We certainly do not have the money and capacity to run 2 programmes side by side so do we shut down the current JFT setup and redesignate and test the fighter as a delta fighter? We will open a whole Pandora's box which we can ill afford at the moment.
> So if we want a delta best to get an off the shelf product from somewhere.
> A



I was quite surprised with the development of the JFT-B version. It basically had to go through 80% of the testing because a lot changed, from the materials to the aerodynamics to the CoG (Center of Gravity). Yet, they went through with it. 

A delta wing would allow the JFT to be a plane that can be the best strike aircraft for PAF. It would save the PAF from having to buy something like the JH-7A or another new platform, which would not only be expensive foreign exchange wise, but also require a whole new set of maintenance and other sustainment investments. 

A delta-winged JFT would require none of this. With large conformal fuel tanks and the new more powerful engines, they would easily be able to cover the strike range requirements of PAF. Large delta wings would allow a heavy weapons load, along with more fuel. Basically, it would be like what an Su-34 is to a FLANKER.

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## Humble Analyst

Armchair said:


> I was quite surprised with the development of the JFT-B version. It basically had to go through 80% of the testing because a lot changed, from the materials to the aerodynamics to the CoG (Center of Gravity). Yet, they went through with it.
> 
> A delta wing would allow the JFT to be a plane that can be the best strike aircraft for PAF. It would save the PAF from having to buy something like the JH-7A or another new platform, which would not only be expensive foreign exchange wise, but also require a whole new set of maintenance and other sustainment investments.
> 
> A delta-winged JFT would require none of this. With large conformal fuel tanks and the new more powerful engines, they would easily be able to cover the strike range requirements of PAF. Large delta wings would allow a heavy weapons load, along with more fuel. Basically, it would be like what an Su-34 is to a FLANKER.


I agree and discussing ideas is good. This is called brain storming and the idea can be absurd. The reason behind American innovation is no ideas is bad and they see if it works or improves and if they have resources it flies. We should not have closed minds, practicality should be considered.

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## araz

Armchair said:


> I was quite surprised with the development of the JFT-B version. It basically had to go through 80% of the testing because a lot changed, from the materials to the aerodynamics to the CoG (Center of Gravity). Yet, they went through with it.
> 
> A delta wing would allow the JFT to be a plane that can be the best strike aircraft for PAF. It would save the PAF from having to buy something like the JH-7A or another new platform, which would not only be expensive foreign exchange wise, but also require a whole new set of maintenance and other sustainment investments.
> 
> A delta-winged JFT would require none of this. With large conformal fuel tanks and the new more powerful engines, they would easily be able to cover the strike range requirements of PAF. Large delta wings would allow a heavy weapons load, along with more fuel. Basically, it would be like what an Su-34 is to a FLANKER.


Which is what a J10 is!!! So why would you think the Chinese would produce a competitor for their own product themselves?. Secondly whio is going to pay the development cost?
The JFTB was a demand and sales were affected due to the lack of this fighter. Therefore PAF footed the bill. The Chinese also felt there was a need AND MOST IMPORTANTLY there was no conflict, so complied. Why would they do so for a limited demand of 60-80 fighters??. What woiuld the cost of such a venture be?. The Lockmart tried the 16XL and tested it but then abandoned it? Why?. Perhaps lack of demand!!.
Delta with canards is a much better idea as compared to delta alone which is why I think PAF if it wants to will go for J10s
A

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## Khafee

araz said:


> Which is what a J10 is!!! So why would you think the Chinese would produce a competitor for their own product themselves?. Secondly whio is going to pay the development cost?
> The JFTB was a demand and sales were affected due to the lack of this fighter. Therefore PAF footed the bill. The Chinese also felt there was a need AND MOST IMPORTANTLY there was no conflict, so complied. Why would they do so for a limited demand of 60-80 fighters??. What woiuld the cost of such a venture be?. The Lockmart tried the 16XL and tested it but then abandoned it? Why?. Perhaps lack of demand!!.
> Delta with canards is a much better idea as compared to delta alone which is why I think PAF if it wants to will go for J10s
> A



I sincerely hope they go for J15 / J16, or a mix of J10 & J15/J16. But his is just my wishful thinking. PAF is leaning towards J10.

It is high time, twin engine heavies are inducted into PAF.

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## Armchair

araz said:


> The Lockmart tried the 16XL and tested it but then abandoned it? Why?. Perhaps lack of demand!!.



This happened because of the F-15 lobby, which didn't allow the XL to go forward, as it would have taken over a lot of missions of the F-15s. 

If PAF wants a delta wing for a strike variant, it can be made to happen. PAF already makes many components of the wings for the Mirages in house - that technology can only help. 

I would rather have a JFT with delta wings than the J10 for the simple reason that it would keep maintenance and upkeep cost effective, and not need to set up a new overhauling facility for the J-10s highly maintenance intensive engines.

Think also of the export potential for such a strike aircraft. There are no cheap strike aircraft left in the world! Even JH-7As are out of production. Rafale's cost an arm and a leg. F-16s come with a price tag and political baggage. 

J-10s aren't designed for strike but for air superiority. All deltas aren't born the same...

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## Khafee

Armchair said:


> This happened because of the F-15 lobby, which didn't allow the XL to go forward, as it would have taken over a lot of missions of the F-15s.
> 
> If PAF wants a delta wing for a strike variant, it can be made to happen. PAF already makes many components of the wings for the Mirages in house - that technology can only help.
> 
> I would rather have a JFT with delta wings than the J10 for the simple reason that it would keep maintenance and upkeep cost effective, and not need to set up a new overhauling facility for the J-10s highly maintenance intensive engines.



Very valid points. Unfortunately, R&D costs time and money.



Armchair said:


> J-10s aren't designed for strike but for air superiority. All deltas aren't born the same...



My friend, each air force, uses the same platform differently. I 'm telling you this from experience.

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Very valid points. Unfortunately, R&D costs time and money.



True, would be an interesting chimera if it did happen. Would be a bit like the Jaguar development, from a program point of view.



Khafee said:


> My friend, each air force, uses the same platform differently. I 'm telling you this from experience.



I understand, and highly value your expert opinion. I was talking about it from an aerodynamic viewpoint. The airfoil, the chord, the disruptive air flow from the canards, the low intake. 

If I were designing a low level striker, one of the things I'd look at would be how airflow would be disrupted over the wings, as stability is critical for low level flight. In this regard, the pure delta of the Mirage-3/5 and M-2000 is superior to that of the J-10 by a long mile. And this is not even considering the NACA airfoil types optimized for low level strike. Or the engines... or the... (so many variables). 

When you design an aircraft specifically for low level strike, your set of choices are very different from when you sit down and design an aircraft for high altitude high speed intercept, and BVR combat. The J-10 is the latter, not the former. Perhaps @MastanKhan has something to add to about this.

Watch this for fun: 




An example is sometimes worth a book - for low level flight you can use thick airfoils, which are more efficient in low level flight and carry a ton of fuel. Thinner airfoils become more optimal the higher the altitude you want your aircraft to be optimized for.

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## Khafee

Armchair said:


> Watch this for fun:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Don't rub salt on my wounds. I always wanted PAF to get M2K's.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> I was quite surprised with the development of the JFT-B version. It basically had to go through 80% of the testing because a lot changed, from the materials to the aerodynamics to the CoG (Center of Gravity). Yet, they went through with it.
> 
> A delta wing would allow the JFT to be a plane that can be the best strike aircraft for PAF. It would save the PAF from having to buy something like the JH-7A or another new platform, which would not only be expensive foreign exchange wise, but also require a whole new set of maintenance and other sustainment investments.
> 
> A delta-winged JFT would require none of this. With large conformal fuel tanks and the new more powerful engines, they would easily be able to cover the strike range requirements of PAF. Large delta wings would allow a heavy weapons load, along with more fuel. Basically, it would be like what an Su-34 is to a FLANKER.



Hi,

JF17 would not be able to fill the shoes of the JH7A's---.

Young pakistani need to learn this---.

When you make an enemy to fight against---your primary goal is not what the maintenance costs are for the weapons---but what the weapon can do to the enemy for you---.

You need to understand what the JH7A is---.

There was a Bangladeshi poster here---an air force pilot---he wrote a nice complimentary piece on it---.

A young and silly pakistani Administrator / Moderator got pi-ssed off at him and banned him for some comments---not understanding what a great asset he was to the board---.

Naval strike missions have different flight parameters---the JH7A was uniquely designed to meet those parameters---the aircraft and the engine---.

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## araz

Khafee said:


> I sincerely hope they go for J15 / J16, or a mix of J10 & J15/J16. But his is just my wishful thinking. PAF is leaning towards J10.
> 
> It is high time, twin engine heavies are inducted into PAF.


During the last Pak China execrcises @bilal khan777 had said that these could well be the future two aircrafts of PAF. We have been debating the need for 2-3 suadrons of twin engine beasts placed centrally for area wide and sea coverage. PAF obviously is constrained by our finances.
A



Khafee said:


> Don't rub salt on my wounds. I always wanted PAF to get M2K's.


The M2K was just one of those things that did not materialize in spite of three goes from PAF. It was not meant to happen. 
A

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## Khafee

Armchair said:


> If I were designing a low level striker, one of the things I'd look at would be how airflow would be disrupted over the wings, as stability is critical for low level flight. In this regard, the pure delta of the Mirage-3/5 and M-2000 is superior to that of the J-10 by a long mile. And this is not even considering the NACA airfoil types optimized for low level strike. Or the engines... or the... (so many variables).
> 
> When you design an aircraft specifically for low level strike, your set of choices are very different from when you sit down and design an aircraft for high altitude high speed intercept, and BVR combat. The J-10 is the latter, not the former.
> 
> An example is sometimes worth a book - for low level flight you can use thick airfoils, which are more efficient in low level flight and carry a ton of fuel. Thinner airfoils become more optimal the higher the altitude you want your aircraft to be optimized for.



I'm no expert on aerodynamics. But taking the following into account, where does the J10 stand..?_

The Rafale’s all-moving canards—a second set of small wings near the nose—give the Rafale excellent lift and low-altitude speed and performance, as you can see in this majestic airshow display._
_https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/just-how-stealthy-are-frances-rafales-f42s-66727_

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> I'm no expert on aerodynamics. But taking the following into account, where does the J10 stand..?
> _
> The Rafale’s all-moving canards—a second set of small wings near the nose—give the Rafale excellent lift and low-altitude speed and performance, as you can see in this majestic airshow display._
> _https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/just-how-stealthy-are-frances-rafales-f42s-66727_



Hi,

Yessir indeed---. Why would you know---hehehehehe---.

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> I'm no expert on aerodynamics. But taking the following into account, where does the J10 stand..?
> _
> The Rafale’s all-moving canards—a second set of small wings near the nose—give the Rafale excellent lift and low-altitude speed and performance, as you can see in this majestic airshow display._
> _https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/just-how-stealthy-are-frances-rafales-f42s-66727_



The Rafale was designed with four separate missions in mind - air superiority, low level strike were only two of those requirements. If the Rafale had been designed just for low level strike alone, it would not have been a canard delta but a pure delta. No doubt, the quality of the Rafale and the engineering is of par excellence, but it is still a compromise of multiple requirements.

In the naval realm we have large, expensive frigates and destroyers that can attempt to do everything. But when you come to corvettes, you need the corvette to specialize in something. Of course an F-15 or Su-30 can be made to do all kinds of missions. But the David in the battle, who has one specialization and does it well - still often trumps the others. 

A JFT Delta designed for strike would be the only low cost specialized strike aircraft currently available in the market. Its nearest competitor would be an F-16, and nothing else.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> JF17 would not be able to fill the shoes of the JH7A's---.
> 
> Young pakistani need to learn this---.
> 
> When you make an enemy to fight against---your primary goal is not what the maintenance costs are for the weapons---but what the weapon can do to the enemy for you---.
> 
> You need to understand what the JH7A is---.
> 
> There was a Bangladeshi poster here---an air force pilot---he wrote a nice complimentary piece on it---.
> 
> A young and silly pakistani Administrator / Moderator got pi-ssed off at him and banned him for some comments---not understanding what a great asset he was to the board---.
> 
> Naval strike missions have different flight parameters---the JH7A was uniquely designed to meet those parameters---the aircraft and the engine---.



of course, the JH-7A has engines that were designed from the get-go based on low level strike. If I recall the Blackburn Buccaneer was the archetype to this. However, I do think that a JFT with delta wings, reconfigured DSI, would be an excellent aircraft designed for strike.

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## aliaselin

How many Mirage III/V does Pakistan have now？ 6 squadron , ie ,around 108?


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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Don't rub salt on my wounds. I always wanted PAF to get M2K's.



And a JFT with Delta wings would basically be a new gen M2K... look at the profiles of both aircraft, they are quite similar...

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> of course, the JH-7A has engines that were designed from the get-go based on low level strike. If I recall the Blackburn Buccaneer was the archetype to this. However, I do think that a JFT with delta wings, reconfigured DSI, would be an excellent aircraft designed for strike.



Hi,

The reason you manufacture an aircraft is when there is nothing available---. When the Jh7A is available---there is no reason to re-invent the wheel---.

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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> Don't rub salt on my wounds. I always wanted PAF to get M2K's.


and then i have to support mastan sahb when he says these things

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## ziaulislam

Armchair said:


> I was quite surprised with the development of the JFT-B version. It basically had to go through 80% of the testing because a lot changed, from the materials to the aerodynamics to the CoG (Center of Gravity). Yet, they went through with it.
> 
> A delta wing would allow the JFT to be a plane that can be the best strike aircraft for PAF. It would save the PAF from having to buy something like the JH-7A or another new platform, which would not only be expensive foreign exchange wise, but also require a whole new set of maintenance and other sustainment investments.
> 
> A delta-winged JFT would require none of this. With large conformal fuel tanks and the new more powerful engines, they would easily be able to cover the strike range requirements of PAF. Large delta wings would allow a heavy weapons load, along with more fuel. Basically, it would be like what an Su-34 is to a FLANKER.


seems PAF is in content with running the mirages till 2030(~2ish squardons, judging by the fact it is still shopping around for them!) and hoping to get a new fifth gen delta by round about that time..if not possible it will opt for 1-2 squadron of j10s

jf-17B was a JV and both CAC and PAC felt that customer sale will justify the cost...it wasnt purely a PAF request

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The reason you manufacture an aircraft is when there is nothing available---. When the Jh7A is available---there is no reason to re-invent the wheel---.



JH-7A production line stopped a few years ago...

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> JH-7A production line stopped a few years ago...



The Saab aircraft with Paf---their production has also stopped---.


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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> The Saab aircraft with Paf---their production has also stopped---.



Very different animals. One is a fighter bomber, the other is a civilian airliner / converted to awacs. 
You don't want to buy a second hand fighter bomber that has only about 300 copies and a shut production line... lack of spares will be a major issue. 

Now, if we could get them for 5 million USD a piece it would be worth it. But the Chinese have upped their prices, a little too early if you ask me. Their equipment isn't worth what they are asking for.



ziaulislam said:


> seems PAF is in content with running the mirages till 2030(~2ish squardons, judging by the fact it is still shopping around for them!) and hoping to get a new fifth gen delta by round about that time..if not possible it will opt for 1-2 squadron of j10s
> 
> jf-17B was a JV and both CAC and PAC felt that customer sale will justify the cost...it wasnt purely a PAF request



2 squadrons of Mirages mean very little. Pak needs about 100 aircraft to replace the mirages. About 5-6 squadrons worth of fighters / strikers / recon / CAS to replace them.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Very different animals. One is a fighter bomber, the other is a civilian airliner / converted to awacs.
> You don't want to buy a second hand fighter bomber that has only about 300 copies and a shut production line... lack of spares will be a major issue.
> 
> Now, if we could get them for 5 million USD a piece it would be worth it. But the Chinese have upped their prices, a little too early if you ask me. Their equipment isn't worth what they are asking for.
> 
> 
> 
> 2 squadrons of Mirages mean very little. Pak needs about 100 aircraft to replace the mirages. About 5-6 squadrons worth of fighters / strikers / recon / CAS to replace them.



Hi,

Different function---different utility---.

It is different with strike aircraft---. They don't need to meet the criteria of air superiority fighters---.

Just like the 50 years old mirage 3/5 is being made useful---a 30 years old JH7A can do wonders---.

Or th B52 upgrade---or the B1 upgrade---.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Different function---different utility---.
> 
> It is different with strike aircraft---. They don't need to meet the criteria of air superiority fighters---.
> 
> Just like the 50 years old mirage 3/5 is being made useful---a 30 years old JH7A can do wonders---.
> 
> Or th B52 upgrade---or the B1 upgrade---.



Mirages are in numbers, so setting up overhaul facilities made sense. Now imagine having to do that for a small number of outdated, out of production, maintenance intensive jets. 

I'm sure if we sent you to negotiate MK, you could get us a good deal for the JH-7As

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## Basel

Armchair said:


> I was quite surprised with the development of the JFT-B version. It basically had to go through 80% of the testing because a lot changed, from the materials to the aerodynamics to the CoG (Center of Gravity). Yet, they went through with it.
> 
> A delta wing would allow the JFT to be a plane that can be the best strike aircraft for PAF. It would save the PAF from having to buy something like the JH-7A or another new platform, which would not only be expensive foreign exchange wise, but also require a whole new set of maintenance and other sustainment investments.
> 
> A delta-winged JFT would require none of this. With large conformal fuel tanks and the new more powerful engines, they would easily be able to cover the strike range requirements of PAF. Large delta wings would allow a heavy weapons load, along with more fuel. Basically, it would be like what an Su-34 is to a FLANKER.



Why spent money on creating a new Delta aircraft for PAF?? If PAF wants a delta then they can easily go for J-10 from China.


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## Armchair

Basel said:


> Why spent money on creating a new Delta aircraft for PAF?? If PAF wants a delta then they can easily go for J-10 from China.



Hi Basel, if you skip back a few pages, you will find my answer to why.


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## ziaulislam

Armchair said:


> Very different animals. One is a fighter bomber, the other is a civilian airliner / converted to awacs.
> You don't want to buy a second hand fighter bomber that has only about 300 copies and a shut production line... lack of spares will be a major issue.
> 
> Now, if we could get them for 5 million USD a piece it would be worth it. But the Chinese have upped their prices, a little too early if you ask me. Their equipment isn't worth what they are asking for.
> 
> 
> 
> 2 squadrons of Mirages mean very little. Pak needs about 100 aircraft to replace the mirages. About 5-6 squadrons worth of fighters / strikers / recon / CAS to replace them.


Jf 17 can do CAS ..its strike role that we need something and 2 sq of new gen fighter with high serviceability will be as good as 60 mirage 5

Jf 17 can even do strike role but its range is less than ideal


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## Armchair

ziaulislam said:


> 2 sq of new gen fighter with high serviceability will be as good as 60 mirage 5



No

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## ziaulislam

Armchair said:


> No


Ok news to me

never knew mirage serviceability is better than 4th gen fighter

So now mirage after waving a wand go through overhaul less often than new gen fighters

Its also new to me that turbojet engines are now better than turbofan engines..

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## ali_raza

why not look into saudi tornadoes they can be grabbed for free and much much more modern 
with terrain hugging capablity

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## denel

ali_raza said:


> why not look into saudi tornadoes they can be grabbed for free and much much more modern
> with terrain hugging capablity


British hardware is a maintenance nightmare.

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## Adam_Khan

denel said:


> British hardware is a maintenance nightmare.


Overhyped and a maintenance nightmare for sure.

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## phrozenflame

ali_raza said:


> why not look into saudi tornadoes they can be grabbed for free and much much more modern
> with terrain hugging capablity


How do you know they're available for free?

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## denel

phrozenflame said:


> How do you know they're available for free?


Just like the subs that went to Canada; look at the billions they spent to get them working. Do you want to go thru the same ordeal. Thanks but no thanks. Last good plane the British made was the Hunter; that was long back in the 50's.

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## araz

denel said:


> British hardware is a maintenance nightmare.


I think the PAF looked into the Tornadoes before getting the A5s. I was told they did not like the plane. I understand it is a good plane for terrain hugging but all said and done we have moved on and do not want to go back.
A

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## Armchair

ziaulislam said:


> Ok news to me
> 
> never knew mirage serviceability is better than 4th gen fighter
> 
> So now mirage after waving a wand go through overhaul less often than new gen fighters
> 
> Its also new to me that turbojet engines are now better than turbofan engines..




Numbers matter in air combat. By some calculations, more than with ground forces. There are papers and mathematical calculations even about this since WWII. Reducing your aircraft by half as you suggested would not give the same capability (and you didn't even mention what you want to replace them with).

PAF had its entire fighter fleet in the sky in the recent standoff, even that should be a glimpse into the numbers issue.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> Numbers matter in air combat. By some calculations, more than with ground forces. There are papers and mathematical calculations even about this since WWII. Reducing your aircraft by half as you suggested would not give the same capability (and you didn't even mention what you want to replace them with).
> 
> PAF had its entire fighter fleet in the sky in the recent standoff, even that should be a glimpse into the numbers issue.


It is a combination of both. capability and balanced numbers.

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## Keysersoze

denel said:


> Just like the subs that went to Canada; look at the billions they spent to get them working. Do you want to go thru the same ordeal. Thanks but no thanks. Last good plane the British made was the Hunter; that was long back in the 50's.


Harrier? Hawk?


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## denel

Keysersoze said:


> Harrier? Hawk?


nope. too complex for harrier; hawk more a trainer.

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## Adam_Khan

araz said:


> I think the PAF looked into the Tornadoes before getting the A5s. I was told they did not like the plane. I understand it is a good plane for terrain hugging but all said and done we have moved on and do not want to go back.
> A



It was actually evaluated in the 90s and found to be maintenance heavy.

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## Armchair

I heard that the Swiss are looking to sell off their Mirage IIIs which they retired sometime back. Anyone knows if the PAF is negotiating a deal on this or not?

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## Armchair

Could be a great buy given how well maintained and minimally used these birds are. They are also sporting a specially strengthened body. Given that they are Swiss, I heard they also come with chocolate and wrapped in gold foil.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> I heard that the Swiss are looking to sell off their Mirage IIIs which they retired sometime back. Anyone knows if the PAF is negotiating a deal on this or not?





Armchair said:


> Could be a great buy given how well maintained and minimally used these birds are. They are also sporting a specially strengthened body. Given that they are Swiss, I heard they also come with chocolate and wrapped in gold foil.


Agreed, definitely worth looking at.

Ultimately, even with the JF-17 Block-3 (and later), new F-16s (if the news is accurate), and Project Azm, the PAF should consider keeping the Mirages around for as long as possible.

There might be value in keeping a 100 or so dedicated ALCM/SOW launchers in addition to the GLCM/SLCM and BM forces. I mean, forget the conventional role entirely -- build a strategic air element around 100+ Mirages. 

Strip out the radar and seal/eliminate radio emissions where doable, zero-hour the engine and airframe (talk to Denel), enable/maintain night-time flight, and pursue a 1,000+ km ALCM.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Agreed, definitely worth looking at.
> 
> Ultimately, even with the JF-17 Block-3 (and later), new F-16s (if the news is accurate), and Project Azm, the PAF should consider keeping the Mirages around for as long as possible.
> 
> There might be value in keeping a 100 or so dedicated ALCM/SOW launchers in addition to the GLCM/SLCM and BM forces. I mean, forget the conventional role entirely -- build a strategic air element around 100+ Mirages.
> 
> Strip out the radar and seal/eliminate radio emissions where doable, zero-hour the engine and airframe (talk to Denel), enable/maintain night-time flight, and pursue a 1,000+ km ALCM.



Sounds deadly and a role that is unlikely to become obsolete in a hundred years. @denel what do you think?

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## Bossman

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Agreed, definitely worth looking at.
> 
> Ultimately, even with the JF-17 Block-3 (and later), new F-16s (if the news is accurate), and Project Azm, the PAF should consider keeping the Mirages around for as long as possible.
> 
> There might be value in keeping a 100 or so dedicated ALCM/SOW launchers in addition to the GLCM/SLCM and BM forces. I mean, forget the conventional role entirely -- build a strategic air element around 100+ Mirages.
> 
> Strip out the radar and seal/eliminate radio emissions where doable, zero-hour the engine and airframe (talk to Denel), enable/maintain night-time flight, and pursue a 1,000+ km ALCM.


I like what you are doing but sometimes you mix reality with fiction. This is a simple equation and it is about replacing the old F7 and Mirage squadrons with a combination of JF17 and F16s. We are almost done with the F7s except for a couple of PG squadrons. PAF gets our smartest and brightest, don’t second guess them like the idiot Ma$taan. This is about Grey Matter.

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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> I like what you are doing but sometimes you mix reality with fiction. This is a simple equation and it is about replacing the old F7 and Mirage squadrons with a combination of JF17 and F16s. We are almost done with the F7s except for a couple of PG squadrons. PAF gets our smartest and brightest, don’t second guess them like the idiot Ma$taan. This is about Grey Matter.



Hi,

Yeah---smartest and brightest---who let the awacs get destroyed on the tarmac even though they had info when the terrs were coming.

Smartest & brightest---who paid up front for aircraft that were going to be sanctioned---.

Smartest & brightest----who donated the money for the F16's to the flood relief instead of buying the aircraft---.

If these are you smartest & the brightest---Allah spare me the misery of seeing the dumb and stupid of the Paf---.

Seems like your ballz have shrunk---. Did the mods spank you or what---previously you used to name me directly---now you have chickened out & can't even name me properly---.

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## ziaulislam

Bossman said:


> I like what you are doing but sometimes you mix reality with fiction. This is a simple equation and it is about replacing the old F7 and Mirage squadrons with a combination of JF17 and F16s. We are almost done with the F7s except for a couple of PG squadrons. PAF gets our smartest and brightest, don’t second guess them like the idiot Ma$taan. This is about Grey Matter.


PAF is going to keep the mirages till 2030 at least that is pretty much clear 
The f7s will go first

Paf is still shopping around for Spares and has complete rebuild setup

Airchief stated PAF wants 400AC..and there is no way it can get 400 jf17+ f16s by 2030..

Unless PAF does same thing with f16s as it did with mirages And USA allows it

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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> PAF is going to keep the mirages till 2030 at least that is pretty much clear
> The f7s will go first
> 
> Paf is still shopping around for Spares and has complete rebuild setup
> 
> Airchief stated PAF wants 400AC..and there is no way it can get 400 jf17+ f16s by 2030..
> 
> Unless PAF does same thing with f16s as it did with mirages And USA allows it



PAF could easily build 200 additional JF-17s in the next 11 years so that is not an issue. Might even be able to get an additional 20-30 F-16s within that time frame, so 400 fighters is very doable by 2030, excluding all Mirages and F-7s. 
Whether it is a good idea is a different case. By then, the cutting edge will be gone for these two gets and we would be looking to acquire or build NGFA. By then, Mirages would be worth museum pieces at best and exorbitantly expensive to maintain.

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## MystryMan

Bossman said:


> PAF gets our smartest and brightest, don’t second guess them like the idiot Ma$taan. This is about Grey Matter.


Having an alternate view on any subject is a good thing. It maybe right or not or partially accurate but it sure broadens your horizon.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bossman said:


> I like what you are doing but sometimes you mix reality with fiction. This is a simple equation and it is about replacing the old F7 and Mirage squadrons with a combination of JF17 and F16s. We are almost done with the F7s except for a couple of PG squadrons. PAF gets our smartest and brightest, don’t second guess them like the idiot Ma$taan. This is about Grey Matter.


I'm not second guessing the PAF. Rather, I'm trying to infer based on what we have available today.

For example, we've yet to see any hard evidence of the JF-17 deploying the Ra'ad ALCM. Every time we or anyone broaches the topic, the folks in the know basically tell us, 'well, the JF-17's SOW profile is conventional' or 'the JF-17 will get SOW, but not strategic' and then some paragraphs later, tell us, flatly, the Mirages are staying.

So, apparently, the PAF is keeping the Mirages for a while yet, and for now, it seems the Ra'ad is tied to the Mirage.

In that case, let's just shoot off ideas on how to get more out of those fighters. Yes, I was taking it a step further by saying we ought to keep them for as long as possible, but it wasn't a shot at the PAF. Rather, I thought it'd be worth studying because Pakistan can keep 100 launch platforms for strategic weapons (Ra'ad). If it's infeasible, cool, if it's doable, also cool. Is the PAF obliged to do anything about it? Nope, and that's cool.

Ultimately, anything we say here is independent of what the PAF's thinking or does. But interestingly, we've seen the PAF change course too -- they at one point didn't want LIFT trainers, now they do.

We've had folks here talk about LIFT for a long time, and for some time they were spouting fiction, and now today, they're discussing a possibility. So, you never know. I mean, honestly, how many of us in 2015-2016 thought the PAF would pursue its own FGFA under Project Azm?

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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm not second guessing the PAF. Rather, I'm trying to infer based on what we have available today.
> 
> For example, we've yet to see any hard evidence of the JF-17 deploying the Ra'ad ALCM. Every time we or anyone broaches the topic, the folks in the know basically tell us, 'well, the JF-17's SOW profile is conventional' or 'the JF-17 will get SOW, but not strategic' and then some paragraphs later, tell us, flatly, the Mirages are staying.
> 
> So, apparently, the PAF is keeping the Mirages for a while yet, and for now, it seems the Ra'ad is tied to the Mirage.
> 
> In that case, let's just shoot off ideas on how to get more out of those fighters. Yes, I was taking it a step further by saying we ought to keep them for as long as possible, but it wasn't a shot at the PAF. Rather, I thought it'd be worth studying because Pakistan can keep 100 launch platforms for strategic weapons (Ra'ad). If it's infeasible, cool, if it's doable, also cool. Is the PAF obliged to do anything about it? Nope, and that's cool.
> 
> Ultimately, anything we say here is independent of what the PAF's thinking or does. But interestingly, we've seen the PAF change course too -- they at one point didn't want LIFT trainers, now they do.
> 
> We've had folks here talk about LIFT for a long time, and for some time they were spouting fiction, and now today, they're discussing a possibility. So, you never know. I mean, honestly, how many of us in 2015-2016 thought the PAF would pursue its own FGFA under Project Azm?


JFT role is anti ship interdiction. It can carry up to 2 C-802AK AShMs for anti-ship missions. For high value fixed targets, up to 2 CM-400AKGstandoff supersonic ASMs can be carried. 

Mirage is dedicated for land targets. Maybe in the near future the JFT also undertakes land missions with the ALCMs.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> JFT role is anti ship interdiction. It can carry up to 2 C-802AK AShMs for anti-ship missions. For high value fixed targets, up to 2 CM-400AKGstandoff supersonic ASMs can be carried.
> 
> Mirage is dedicated for land targets. Maybe in the near future the JFT also undertakes land missions with the ALCMs.


Sir 
With a weight of 1100Kg (if Wikipedia is to be believed) it will be at the higher end of weight load of a wing pylon. The Central pylon will create issues with clearance. So unless the Block 3 comes with further wing strengthening Raad in its current iteration may be too heavy for the JFT. BUT then PAF keeps fiddling around so you never know what they might come up with.
A

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## Armchair

Imagine the capability that 100 Mirages, armed with heavy standoff weapons brings. And even if JFTs ore F-16s could do this job, you would have to sacrifice that JFT or F-16 from more precious duties. 

And the cost? The valuation of diverting an F-16 for such a task is about 100 million USD
And for the Mirages? its pennies to the dollar. You can get the job done at 1/50th of the price.

And here we are discussing platitudes about how or what will become obsolete xx years from now...

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> PAF could easily build 200 additional JF-17s in the next 11 years so that is not an issue. Might even be able to get an additional 20-30 F-16s within that time frame, so 400 fighters is very doable by 2030, excluding all Mirages and F-7s.
> Whether it is a good idea is a different case. By then, the cutting edge will be gone for these two gets and we would be looking to acquire or build NGFA. By then, Mirages would be worth museum pieces at best and exorbitantly expensive to maintain.


Well it took 10 years to just build 100, even at 16/year will take 2030 to get to 250 mark with even 100 f16s we will be at 350 mark in 2030..room for 3 mirage squardons ..so ATLEAST mirages are to stay till 2030..



araz said:


> Sir
> With a weight of 1100Kg (if Wikipedia is to be believed) it will be at the higher end of weight load of a wing pylon. The Central pylon will create issues with clearance. So unless the Block 3 comes with further wing strengthening Raad in its current iteration may be too heavy for the JFT. BUT then PAF keeps fiddling around so you never know what they might come up with.
> A


The raad will probably be retired once mirages go & i doubt it is conventional SOW..seems purely a nuke option

Jf17 has its own SOW in works we know about REK and we suspect one other undisclosed one already in final testing (post 27feb)..


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## Deltadart

I definitely think the avionics have advanced many folds since the ROSE upgrade. Thus an avionics upgrade is way over due. 
It wouldn't hurt to give them a new camouflage as well.


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## Code_Geass

A bit off topic anyone want to have a guess how mamy jf 17 paf will build for themselves around 250???


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## MastanKhan

Deltadart said:


> I definitely think the avionics have advanced many folds since the ROSE upgrade. Thus an avionics upgrade is way over due.
> It wouldn't hurt to give them a new camouflage as well.



Hi,

I think it started with Rose 1 and then to Rose 2 upgrade---.

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## ziaulislam

Code_Geass said:


> A bit off topic anyone want to have a guess how mamy jf 17 paf will build for themselves around 250???


So far the confirm number is 180


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deltadart said:


> I definitely think the avionics have advanced many folds since the ROSE upgrade. Thus an avionics upgrade is way over due.
> It wouldn't hurt to give them a new camouflage as well.





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think it started with Rose 1 and then to Rose 2 upgrade---.


The avionics were a big deal back in the 1990s when the PAF was short on multi-role fighters (just <40 F-16s). But thanks to the addition of new F-16s and JF-17s, the PAF has solved its multi-role needs. 

So at this stage, electronics might not be a priority for the old Mirages. Rather, the focus may need to shift towards extending the life of the airframe and, if possible, trying to increase the payload.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The avionics were a big deal back in the 1990s when the PAF was short on multi-role fighters (just <40 F-16s). But thanks to the addition of new F-16s and JF-17s, the PAF has solved its multi-role needs.
> 
> So at this stage, electronics might not be a priority for the old Mirages. Rather, the focus may need to shift towards extending the life of the airframe and, if possible, trying to increase the payload.



Hi,

I have written it before---the utility of a strike aircraft is different than that of an air superiority platform---.

Where you can get away with a lesser but a functional EW system---for air superiority---you need to be on the top tier---.

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## Humble Analyst

Armchair said:


> No


Glad somebody understands on this forum the capabilities of Mirages and why PAF operates them. Just look at the difference of underwing/underbelly clearance between Mirages and JF17 and that is one aspect.



Armchair said:


> Could be a great buy given how well maintained and minimally used these birds are. They are also sporting a specially strengthened body. Given that they are Swiss, I heard they also come with chocolate and wrapped in gold foil.


And money in numbered accounts is a bonus.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have written it before---the utility of a strike aircraft is different than that of an air superiority platform---.
> 
> Where you can get away with a lesser but a functional EW system---for air superiority---you need to be on the top tier---.


It depends.

Some attack missions will occur in contested environments. Just consider Kashmir: it's heavily concentrated with assets on both sides, and in that case, the JF-17 will be key. The PAF can fit the JF-17 with EW/ECM as well as a range of A2G munitions (anti-radiation missiles, LGB, PGB, REK/local-JDAM, etc). Some JF-17s can attack targets, others can escort the attackers. One platform, multiple roles, easy logistics/maintenance. 

But the Mirages are more than just a strike asset, they're a strategic strike asset. 

This is about having a 100 air platforms to join the 8-11+ submarines and 12+ frigates/corvettes, and dozens of land-based launchers of long-range cruise missiles to strike deep from any point. In this case, the upgrade path (if any) should work on firing longer-ranged, heavier cruise missiles.



Humble Analyst said:


> Glad somebody understands on this forum the capabilities of Mirages and why PAF operates them. Just look at the difference of underwing/underbelly clearance between Mirages and JF17 and that is one aspect.
> 
> 
> And money in numbered accounts is a bonus.


Even in the US, China, and Russia, when a strike platform does well, you keep it and try flying it as long as possible, even when you have newer multi-role assets around.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It depends.
> 
> Some attack missions will occur in contested environments. Just consider Kashmir: it's heavily concentrated with assets on both sides, and in that case, the JF-17 will be key. The PAF can fit the JF-17 with EW/ECM as well as a range of A2G munitions (anti-radiation missiles, LGB, PGB, REK/local-JDAM, etc). Some JF-17s can attack targets, others can escort the attackers. One platform, multiple roles, easy logistics/maintenance.
> 
> But the Mirages are more than just a strike asset, they're a strategic strike asset.
> 
> This is about having a 100 air platforms to join the 8-11+ submarines and 12+ frigates/corvettes, and dozens of land-based launchers of long-range cruise missiles to strike deep from any point. In this case, the upgrade path (if any) should work on firing longer-ranged, heavier cruise missiles.
> 
> 
> Even in the US, China, and Russia, when a strike platform does well, you keep it and try flying it as long as possible, even when you have newer multi-role assets around.



If only we could zero hour the airframes and put RD-93s, it would have a significant impact on PAF capabilities without being something to flash and shout about like the F-16s.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> If only we could zero hour the airframes and put RD-93s, it would have a significant impact on PAF capabilities without being something to flash and shout about like the F-16s.


In hindsight, it would've been a smart idea to ask Dassault for a local turnkey manufacturing line for the Mirages back in the 1970s/1980s. That way, PAC could've rolled-out its own Cheetah or Kfir.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In hindsight, it would've been a smart idea to ask Dassault for a local turnkey manufacturing line for the Mirages back in the 1970s/1980s. That way, PAC could've rolled-out its own Cheetah or Kfir.



True, at the same time such plants do exist in a number of countries - South Africa, Israel, Belgium, Switzerland, France and Australia all come to mind. There still may be tooling that can be bought from these places.

3D printing technology is a major leap here, many parts now can be manufactured this way. I knew a USAF officer whose work was to only build parts for out of production planes whose parts were not available. He would simply print most of them!

Then there are all kinds of processes like electrolysis that can add a layer of aluminum to a structural part to strengthen it. And various metallurgical processes.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But the Mirages are more than just a strike asset, they're a strategic strike asset.
> Even in the US, China, and Russia, when a strike platform does well, you keep it and try flying it as long as possible, even when you have newer multi-role assets around.



Hi,

The current updated Mirages basically meet the minimum threshold of the strike element---.

They are an asset because there is nothing else available---or Paf did not get anything else in a timely manner---.

" Even in the US, China, and Russia, when a strike platform does well, you keep it and try flying it as long as possible, even when you have newer multi-role assets around".

Really---are you preaching to the preacher---.

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## Ultima Thule

MastanKhan said:


> They are an asset because there is nothing else available---or Paf did not get anything else in a timely manner---.


Why you insulting PAF Always, its not PAF job to insist to govt what to buy and what not PAF only recommends, and you also forget previous govts corruptions on defense deals @MastanKhan

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## denel

Armchair said:


> Sounds deadly and a role that is unlikely to become obsolete in a hundred years. @denel what do you think?


Correct, this is completely doable. As i have said many times before, the jigs for wings are still lying at Altas plant; if they plan to keep M3/5 further then it is seriously time to consider going the Super Cheetah route. There is nothing wrong with that mindset. It has been done to great success.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Correct, this is completely doable. As i have said many times before, the jigs for wings are still lying at Altas plant; if they plan to keep M3/5 further then it is seriously time to consider going the Super Cheetah route. There is nothing wrong with that mindset. It has been done to great success.


I would second what you just stated. PAF has to look seriously into the super cheetah. Even if many think that it's time has long passed.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> Really---are you preaching to the preacher---.


...even preachers get their convictions reinforced time to time...



denel said:


> Correct, this is completely doable. As i have said many times before, the jigs for wings are still lying at Altas plant; if they plan to keep M3/5 further then it is seriously time to consider going the Super Cheetah route. There is nothing wrong with that mindset. It has been done to great success.


Is the Super Cheetah basically the Cheetah D2 (i.e., with SMR-95/RD-33 etc?)

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ...even preachers get their convictions reinforced time to time...



Hi,

If you have been talking about something for 15-20 years it does not hold much value after that---then newer generation comes in and they start to run with it---.

It is just like your first love---you think no one knows about it---but me the dad who has been through this first love a few times knows about it the moment I look at the face of my kid---but then I have to act stupid as if I did not know---or I have to act stupid knowing my son just jerked off in the restroom and I have to act like it did not happen---hehehe.

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## Armchair

From an aerodynamic point of view, Mirages are the cleanest and yet, simplest design in contemporary fighter history. They don't even have slats, or the most minor elements found even in WWII aircraft. The design is a classic. The jigs for these aircraft are available as @denel noted from multiple places. 

If we re-manufacture these jets, we will have 30 more years of service from them for a mission that is as relevant today as 30 years ago.

at the bare minimum, if Kamra is too busy, give it to the Air university with some resources, and let them give it a shot with our students and academics. Let them learn by doing rather than parrot memorization.

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## fatman17

Code_Geass said:


> A bit off topic anyone want to have a guess how mamy jf 17 paf will build for themselves around 250???


150 is the budget target. 200 is a possibility.

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## Sine Nomine

Armchair said:


> One solution is to take a JFT airframe and put a Mirage wing on it. A tailless delta variant with massive fuel tanks F-16 style, conformally. This would be an ultimate hybrid aircraft that would be a very potent strike aircraft.
> 
> Think of the space and load carrying capacity and range that this could achieve...


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-xx-strike-fighter.614286/



MastanKhan said:


> There was a Bangladeshi poster here---an air force pilot---he wrote a nice complimentary piece on it---.


Sir,share the link.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ...even preachers get their convictions reinforced time to time...
> 
> 
> Is the Super Cheetah basically the Cheetah D2 (i.e., with SMR-95/RD-33 etc?)


Yes that is correct. If my memory recollection is correct, the flight envelopes had drastically improved together with fuel efficiency, range as well as take off speed; from balancing the engine into the atar9K; there was not much restructuring required; there were prints for kits as well to replace these engines - it never went to that stage as politically it was stopped for local use but we had failed to gain traction for other markets like Egypt where French had pivoted corrrupt EAF leadership for considering any upgrades which were non French as inferior. We were also trying for Morocco f1 upgrade to RD33 to include HMS plus upgraded radar/HUD - this too was blocked by French lobby in Morocco.

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## Deltadart

Super cheetah still looks like a very ferocious beast, and comparable to the contemporary fighters. It can still be a very affordable option for few more decades at least.


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## araz

Armchair said:


> True, at the same time such plants do exist in a number of countries - South Africa, Israel, Belgium, Switzerland, France and Australia all come to mind. There still may be tooling that can be bought from these places.
> 
> 3D printing technology is a major leap here, many parts now can be manufactured this way. I knew a USAF officer whose work was to only build parts for out of production planes whose parts were not available. He would simply print most of them!
> 
> Then there are all kinds of processes like electrolysis that can add a layer of aluminum to a structural part to strengthen it. And various metallurgical processes.


The MRF has now got the facilities to manufacture parts for the M3/5s. However what we are talking about would require not rebuild but amnufacturing of newer platforms and this would be problematic. For exmple where would the maraging steel come from? Then Dassault would want to have their share in production due to copyrights. I dont think the will is there to upgrade the M3/5s as we feel they will need replacing in 5 years time. The true coup de grace might have been to buy the manufacturing line for M2Ks around the turn of the century and contract the french to put M88 instead of M53s. This could have done the job for us but I dont even know whether this was thought of and tried and what the response would hace been. Perhaps PAF always wanted to progress on to J10s being newer and more modern platforms. Perhps JFT might have been delayed and PAF did not have the resources to manufacture 2 planes in house.

A



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In hindsight, it would've been a smart idea to ask Dassault for a local turnkey manufacturing line for the Mirages back in the 1970s/1980s. That way, PAC could've rolled-out its own Cheetah or Kfir.


It was tried and some other countries threw a spanner in the works. I gether it was an Iran Pak Egypt venture. I still think we should have gone solo in the early 90s but politicians were so hell bent on fighting each other and corrupting the whole environment that most armed forces were concerned for their next pay check than anything else.
A

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## Deltadart

araz said:


> The MRF has now got the facilities to manufacture parts for the M3/5s. However what we are talking about would require not rebuild but amnufacturing of newer platforms and this would be problematic. For exmple where would the maraging steel come from? Then Dassault would want to have their share in production due to copyrights. I dont think the will is there to upgrade the M3/5s as we feel they will need replacing in 5 years time. The true coup de grace might have been to buy the manufacturing line for M2Ks around the turn of the century and contract the french to put M88 instead of M53s. This could have done the job for us but I dont even know whether this was thought of and tried and what the response would hace been. Perhaps PAF always wanted to progress on to J10s being newer and more modern platforms. Perhps JFT might have been delayed and PAF did not have the resources to manufacture 2 planes in house.
> 
> A
> 
> 
> It was tried and some other countries threw a spanner in the works. I gether it was an Iran Pak Egypt venture. I still think we should have gone solo in the early 90s but politicians were so hell bent on fighting each other and corrupting the whole environment that most armed forces were concerned for their next pay check than anything else.
> A


 very solid answers for the present predicament with the mirages. It seems like everytime there is a plan to proceed with local manufacture of planes (A7s, Saab Draken, M2k, M3,5 etc) some thing happens, either political or financial. Unfortunately, I don't expect any chage in this pattern in the foreseeable future.

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## Armchair

Remanufacturing mirages will not require any licencing fees for Dessault as it is "re" manufacturing aircraft that are already possessed by Pak. There is no question of royalties. SA went down this route and I think @denel can testify to this. 

Steel (and more importantly aluminum, titanium, and various other metals will be needed. Acquiring these are the easy part. Getting the jigs for the major structural parts are the other issue, and again, these are available from a host of countries (South Africa and possibly other countries such as Belgium, France, Switzerland, Israel). 

There is no major barrier to this, just the will to go through with it. 

Let us keep the issue simple - not get sidelined with history and M2K and all kinds of other topics. 

We have some Mirages. They are some of the simplest desgined fighters in the last 50 years. We are going to remanufacture them. 100 copies. That's it. Just get the project going.

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## The Deterrent

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So, apparently, the PAF is keeping the Mirages for a while yet, and for now, it seems the Ra'ad is tied to the Mirage.
> 
> In that case, let's just shoot off ideas on how to get more out of those fighters. Yes, I was taking it a step further by saying we ought to keep them for as long as possible, but it wasn't a shot at the PAF. Rather, I thought it'd be worth studying because Pakistan can keep 100 launch platforms for strategic weapons (Ra'ad). If it's infeasible, cool, if it's doable, also cool. Is the PAF obliged to do anything about it? Nope, and that's cool.


A 100 platforms (aircrafts) is a bit too much IMO. But strategic weapons are exactly what will keep the Mirages in service at least till 2030. Its not just about Ra'ad, Mirages have a certain ground clearance and weight carrying capacity on the center-line pylon which enable them to deliver very heavy payloads.

3x Squadrons (~50 aircrafts), equipped with FLIR, GCAS and NVG (on the lines of No. 25 & 27) dedicated for strategic strikes are enough for PAF. As others have noted as well, this allows for JF-17s/F-16s to be available for conventional ops.

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## Armchair

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-xx-strike-fighter.614286/
> 
> 
> Sir,share the link.


*cough cough* I happen to know that poster quite intimately...


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## Quwa

The Deterrent said:


> A 100 platforms (aircrafts) is a bit too much IMO. But strategic weapons are exactly what will keep the Mirages in service at least till 2030. Its not just about Ra'ad, Mirages have a certain ground clearance and weight carrying capacity on the center-line pylon which enable them to deliver very heavy payloads.
> 
> 3x Squadrons (~50 aircrafts), equipped with FLIR, GCAS and NVG (on the lines of No. 25 & 27) dedicated for strategic strikes are enough for PAF. As others have noted as well, this allows for JF-17s/F-16s to be available for conventional ops.


We can preserve the Mirages even further if we add longer ranged conventional SOWs to the JF-17.

So a Ra'ad Lite' ALCM (or just the Turkish SOM) and longer ranged versions of the REK (maybe add booster rockets?) would make the JF-17's conventional attack capability very potent.

It'll also free the Mirages for a very specific set of missions.

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## Deltadart

Quwa said:


> We can preserve the Mirages even further if we add longer ranged conventional SOWs to the JF-17.
> 
> So a Ra'ad Lite' ALCM (or just the Turkish SOM) and longer ranged versions of the REK (maybe add booster rockets?) would make the JF-17's conventional attack capability very potent.
> 
> It'll also free the Mirages for a very specific set of missions.


In light of all that has been said here earlier, will PAF listen to these words of wisdom?


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## denel

Armchair said:


> Remanufacturing mirages will not require any licencing fees for Dessault as it is "re" manufacturing aircraft that are already possessed by Pak. There is no question of royalties. SA went down this route and I think @denel can testify to this.
> 
> Steel (and more importantly aluminum, titanium, and various other metals will be needed. Acquiring these are the easy part. Getting the jigs for the major structural parts are the other issue, and again, these are available from a host of countries (South Africa and possibly other countries such as Belgium, France, Switzerland, Israel).
> 
> There is no major barrier to this, just the will to go through with it.
> 
> Let us keep the issue simple - not get sidelined with history and M2K and all kinds of other topics.
> 
> We have some Mirages. They are some of the simplest desgined fighters in the last 50 years. We are going to remanufacture them. 100 copies. That's it. Just get the project going.


Key is airframe; you need a zero hour; the rest can be cobbled up using Cheetah blue prints and wing jigs. As i have said before, the airframe is one which is very easy and this too can be sourced from Chengdu as a once off using more current alloys vs the old aluminium frames that are more lighter yet stronger.



Quwa said:


> We can preserve the Mirages even further if we add longer ranged conventional SOWs to the JF-17.
> 
> So a Ra'ad Lite' ALCM (or just the Turkish SOM) and longer ranged versions of the REK (maybe add booster rockets?) would make the JF-17's conventional attack capability very potent.
> 
> It'll also free the Mirages for a very specific set of missions.


Correct; I see PAF Mirages more and more going towards what Mirage IV had for French strategic command.

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## GriffinsRule

I think the idea had some merit in the 1990s but we are past that now. If you want a strategic platform, make better, more compact missiles with longer ranges for use on Thunder.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> I think the idea had some merit in the 1990s but we are past that now. If you want a strategic platform, make better, more compact missiles with longer ranges for use on Thunder.


If not the Mirages, then we're basically talking about using Project Azm to take up the strategic strike role. In his most recent interview with IHS Jane's (May 2019), the PAF CAS said that they want a twin-engine design for Azm. 

I assume they'll think about ground-clearance, payload capacity, and (if they are to use internal bays) internal capacity when designing Azm. Since PAC said the "TF-X is in line with what the PAF want," then a possible avenue would be to have compact ALCMs similar to SOM-J. 

The downside though is the ALCM's range; a small frame generally means less fuel, unless you master miniature turbofan and aerostructure technology to a point where you get relatively high fuel-efficiency (and thus, range). 

In effect, you'll need to design the payload bay to have room for at least 1 Ra'ad II.


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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If not the Mirages, then we're basically talking about using Project Azm to take up the strategic strike role. In his most recent interview with IHS Jane's (May 2019), the PAF CAS said that they want a twin-engine design for Azm.
> 
> I assume they'll think about ground-clearance, payload capacity, and (if they are to use internal bays) internal capacity when designing Azm. Since PAC said the "TF-X is in line with what the PAF want," then a possible avenue would be to have compact ALCMs similar to SOM-J.
> 
> The downside though is the ALCM's range; a small frame generally means less fuel, unless you master miniature turbofan and aerostructure technology to a point where you get relatively high fuel-efficiency (and thus, range).
> 
> In effect, you'll need to design the payload bay to have room for at least 1 Ra'ad II.



I think going that route with the Azm will compromise its air superiority role. With a large weapons bay and relatively weak engines, it would neither be an apple nor a banana. We would have something banal. 

Perhaps a cost benefit analaysis can be done - if the airframe can be built by Chengdu and rest cobbled together, as Denel just noted. The wings I think we already can make them (???). I would say we can afford 7 million dollars per plane, if it is doable with such a budget we should go for it. 

Meanwhile we could pick up the Swiss Mirages. Just sitting there really. And structurally they are superior to any other Mirage IIIs / Vs ever built.

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## Jammer

Deltadart said:


> In light of all that has been said here earlier, will PAF listen to these words of wisdom?


I usually do not reply to stupid info on this forum but this took the cake. let me spell it out for you and others, what ever you have arrived at or concluded to has been tried and tested on both sides, trust me.


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## Armchair

Jammer said:


> I usually do not reply to stupid info on this forum but this took the cake. let me spell it out for you and others, what ever you have arrived at or concluded to has been tried and tested on both sides, trust me.



You do understand that Denel has been a professional in this industry and worked on Pak Mirages? Should we take his word for it, or yours?

Arrogance is something that breaks down everything. It breaks down communication and it stops innovation and problem solving.


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir
> With a weight of 1100Kg (if Wikipedia is to be believed) it will be at the higher end of weight load of a wing pylon. The Central pylon will create issues with clearance. So unless the Block 3 comes with further wing strengthening Raad in its current iteration may be too heavy for the JFT. BUT then PAF keeps fiddling around so you never know what they might come up with.
> A


Raad may never be used by JFT, however a new advanced ALCM is in the works.

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## Jammer

Armchair said:


> You do understand that Denel has been a professional in this industry and worked on Pak Mirages? Should we take his word for it, or yours?
> 
> Arrogance is something that breaks down everything. It breaks down communication and it stops innovation and problem solving.


At the end of the the day we should all take a break and get a life is my suggestion.You and many others are not and never will be aware of what is cooking.


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## Armchair

Jammer said:


> At the end of the the day we should all take a break and get a life is my suggestion.You and many others are not and never will be aware of what is cooking.



Logic would suggest you, the all knowing anonymous person that you are, would not be wasting your time writing one liners to us lowly folks here. And continue the great and very important work that you do all day. Don't you think? Or are you just incompetent at putting across ideas and too big a snob not talk down to others?

Between, I can tell that you are from the PAF. That signature snobbery is quite common there.


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## Humble Analyst

Armchair said:


> Remanufacturing mirages will not require any licencing fees for Dessault as it is "re" manufacturing aircraft that are already possessed by Pak. There is no question of royalties. SA went down this route and I think @denel can testify to this.
> 
> Steel (and more importantly aluminum, titanium, and various other metals will be needed. Acquiring these are the easy part. Getting the jigs for the major structural parts are the other issue, and again, these are available from a host of countries (South Africa and possibly other countries such as Belgium, France, Switzerland, Israel).
> 
> There is no major barrier to this, just the will to go through with it.
> 
> Let us keep the issue simple - not get sidelined with history and M2K and all kinds of other topics.
> 
> We have some Mirages. They are some of the simplest desgined fighters in the last 50 years. We are going to remanufacture them. 100 copies. That's it. Just get the project going.


French rights and contracts are very strict so I do not know if we could have gone on our own and re manufactured

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## Armchair

Humble Analyst said:


> French rights and contracts are very strict so I do not know if we could have gone on our own and re manufactured



Denel does not think it is a problem, and he is the person with the highest subject matter expertise among us in this subject. One could simply call it a deep overhaul if we so wished.


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## Humble Analyst

Armchair said:


> Denel does not think it is a problem, and he is the person with the highest subject matter expertise among us in this subject. One could simply call it a deep overhaul if we so wished.


I visited the rebuild factory as an educational visit in 80s so we had or rather have one.
Their is an interesting real story about the replacement of but cannot share. The rights and contract was tough.

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## Armchair

Humble Analyst said:


> I visited the rebuild factory as an educational visit in 80s so we had or rather have one.
> Their is an interesting real story about the replacement of but cannot share. The rights and contract was tough.



I too have visited the factory in the 1990s. A lot of things can be done and has been done. Many French missiles were copied by us wholesale and the French once, looking at one of the copies couldn't tell the difference from their own. The Mirages can be remanufactured, there is no problem other than will / cost. I guarantee you that bit.

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## Sine Nomine

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If not the Mirages, then we're basically talking about using Project Azm to take up the strategic strike role. In his most recent interview with IHS Jane's (May 2019), the PAF CAS said that they want a twin-engine design for Azm.


We should always keep in view that almost 3 years and not even offical CGI of Project had been made public.
I am bit skeptical about it now.

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## Armchair

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> We should always keep in view that almost 3 years and not even offical CGI of Project had been made public.
> I am bit skeptical about it now.



By now there should have been a prototype. But seems they are playing computer games and ..... off.

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## MIRauf

Why don't Pakistan just simply Modify the RAAD to something akin to Tomahawk with folding fins etc ? Should give you enough ground clearance on inner wing pylons on JF-17.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> I too have visited the factory in the 1990s. A lot of things can be done and has been done. Many French missiles were copied by us wholesale and the French once, looking at one of the copies couldn't tell the difference from their own. The Mirages can be remanufactured, there is no problem other than will / cost. I guarantee you that bit.


There is no licence cost to the french. You are building your own airframe; they are out of the market for 35 years on this;

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## Deltadart

Jammer said:


> I usually do not reply to stupid info on this forum but this took the cake. let me spell it out for you and others, what ever you have arrived at or concluded to has been tried and tested on both sides, trust me.


Please learn some manners first. Thank you.

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## denel

Humble Analyst said:


> French rights and contracts are very strict so I do not know if we could have gone on our own and re manufactured


Nope. You can take middle finger and point it like a french baguet at them. There are time limit expirations; if the French have a problem they can take Isreal to court over the blueprint copy of Nesher first.

There is a difference between remanufacturing and manufacturing. There is no licence implications what so ever.

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## The Deterrent

Considering Ra'ad-I/II, simultaneous increase in range and reduction in payload is not possible, so the size/weight of the high-yield strategic weapons will remain roughly the same. This is something that cannot be delegated to the JF-17s. Of course relatively smaller weapons can be developed and integrated with JF-17s, but the requirement of a platform capable of delivering ~1300kg weapons (stand-off or otherwise) will be there for a long while.

However I don't believe zero-hour airframes are needed for the desired role by PAF. If, around half of the current strength is cannibalized for spares, the other half (roughly 3 squadrons) can be kept airborne well into the 2030s as dedicated strategic bombers. Extensive overhauling/manufacturing new airframes would be unnecessary and a distraction from the JF-17/Azm programs.

I excuse for the following fanboy act, but _IDEALLY_, PAF can be a pretty strong force if the squadron numbers can turn out to be like this by 2030:
5x F-16s (Block 52+/MLU)
5x JF-17s (Block III)
5x JF-17s (Block II)
3x Mirage-5s (ROSE III)
2x J-31s (Project Azm)
1x CCS

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## Deltadart

I do not want to detract from the immediate discussion but whatever became of the Egyptian mirages we were supposed to get? Second, any chance we might get our hands on the Swiss mirages now that they are up for sale?

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## Humble Analyst

denel said:


> Nope. You can take middle finger and point it like a french baguet at them. There are time limit expirations; if the French have a problem they can take Isreal to court over the blueprint copy of Nesher first.
> 
> There is a difference between remanufacturing and manufacturing. There is no licence implications what so ever.


If France cannot supply parts then there is no problem. But if we are getting parts via a valid contract then it depends upon what is in the contract.


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## denel

Humble Analyst said:


> If France cannot supply parts then there is no problem. But if we are getting parts via a valid contract then it depends upon what is in the contract.


Correct. There is no shortage of parts; think of it like out of support/out of product lifecycle product; you keep, you maintain/evolve as you wish. That is the beauty of this scenario. As I said there are tonnes of part jigs lying at Atlas still which can be leveraged; if needed just connect with the folks there as there are still a lot of people around who part took in the Cheetah program; will be happy to build up the orders for parts; better to get complete new parts supply that salvaging off older planes.



Armchair said:


> You do understand that Denel has been a professional in this industry and worked on Pak Mirages? Should we take his word for it, or yours?
> 
> Arrogance is something that breaks down everything. It breaks down communication and it stops innovation and problem solving.


Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.
Many other pioneering works which i cannot say much about in vhf/hf manpacks, artillery, AAMs using TEWAs.
Because of my work, i was closely working with people at Atlas during a lot of prototyping and testing which required getting into the Cheetahs or M3s or F1s; i did not mention integration challenges in Cheetah for multi-facets of embedded systems. during this time i had seen how cheetah evolved out from m3 at atlas.

I did not do anything on the Impalas which were my softspot - similar in nature to K8s.

I digressed - now my passion is around deep learning for retinal problems - you will be unaware retinopathy is a major affliction during high Gs. So this has become my latest thesis area - working with several retina surgeons across 3 countries on this.
Alas that was my lifetime of work; i still smile when I get news of H2/H4 successes.

Unfortunately what i observed of PAF with their Mirages is complete lack of foresight going back 30 years back; it is this tunnel mindedness that has prevented innovation by non PAF engineers from taking the M3/5s to next level. Dont ask the French was our motto! They are the worst pimps you can get in this trade; instead we were all charged young men with engineering degrees who said we can do better as the outside world was against us, we will do better than them and without them - A middle finger to the europeans was our mantra and frankly we could not care; we had the soviets pivoting Mig23s against which our M3s were poor only F1s were up to the mark. Necessity was the mother of inventions. Our orders were make it better and clean slate given; no requirement but what was feasible which meant anything was doable.. No one from the airforce was part of the group; they were our customers. We presented our progress - options and solutions; that was it. They were there just to test and fly and report back every parameters. There were multiple entities part taking in the project each providing seperate frameworks. None but none answered or had air force personnel - we did not want pencil pushers or blockheads who stood between us and progress. This is what is lacking again and again in my humble opinion.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Correct. There is no shortage of parts; think of it like out of support/out of product lifecycle product; you keep, you maintain/evolve as you wish. That is the beauty of this scenario. As I said there are tonnes of part jigs lying at Atlas still which can be leveraged; if needed just connect with the folks there as there are still a lot of people around who part took in the Cheetah program; will be happy to build up the orders for parts; better to get complete new parts supply that salvaging off older planes.
> 
> 
> Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.
> Many other pioneering works which i cannot say much about in vhf/hf manpacks, artillery, AAMs using TEWAs.
> Because of my work, i was closely working with people at Atlas during a lot of prototyping and testing which required getting into the Cheetahs or M3s or F1s; i did not mention integration challenges in Cheetah for multi-facets of embedded systems. during this time i had seen how cheetah evolved out from m3 at atlas.
> 
> I did not do anything on the Impalas which were my softspot - similar in nature to K8s.
> 
> I digressed - now my passion is around deep learning for retinal problems - you will be unaware retinopathy is a major affliction during high Gs. So this has become my latest thesis area - working with several retina surgeons across 3 countries on this.
> Alas that was my lifetime of work; i still smile when I get news of H2/H4 successes.
> 
> Unfortunately what i observed of PAF with their Mirages is complete lack of foresight going back 30 years back; it is this tunnel mindedness that has prevented innovation by non PAF engineers from taking the M3/5s to next level. Dont ask the French was our motto! They are the worst pimps you can get in this trade; instead we were all charged young men with engineering degrees who said we can do better as the outside world was against us, we will do better than them and without them - A middle finger to the europeans was our mantra and frankly we could not care; we had the soviets pivoting Mig23s against which our M3s were poor only F1s were up to the mark. Necessity was the mother of inventions. Our orders were make it better and clean slate given; no requirement but what was feasible which meant anything was doable.. No one from the airforce was part of the group; they were our customers. We presented our progress - options and solutions; that was it. They were there just to test and fly and report back every parameters. There were multiple entities part taking in the project each providing seperate frameworks. None but none answered or had air force personnel - we did not want pencil pushers or blockheads who stood between us and progress. This is what is lacking again and again in my humble opinion.


Brilliant.....thanks for sharing this insight.


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## Armchair

Same problem has plagued HIT and the poor development of the AK. And KSEW. And Kamra it seems. Engineering projects should go to engineers not have interference from the military. These are not semi-retirement cushy jobs. They are not meant to be run like armed forces housing development projects. 

Pak is one of those countries where the army has its own brand of corn flakes and handles weapons programs in the same way. Until we change this, no real progress is possible.

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## Danishwer

denel said:


> Correct. There is no shortage of parts; think of it like out of support/out of product lifecycle product; you keep, you maintain/evolve as you wish. That is the beauty of this scenario. As I said there are tonnes of part jigs lying at Atlas still which can be leveraged; if needed just connect with the folks there as there are still a lot of people around who part took in the Cheetah program; will be happy to build up the orders for parts; better to get complete new parts supply that salvaging off older planes.
> 
> 
> Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.
> Many other pioneering works which i cannot say much about in vhf/hf manpacks, artillery, AAMs using TEWAs.
> Because of my work, i was closely working with people at Atlas during a lot of prototyping and testing which required getting into the Cheetahs or M3s or F1s; i did not mention integration challenges in Cheetah for multi-facets of embedded systems. during this time i had seen how cheetah evolved out from m3 at atlas.
> 
> I did not do anything on the Impalas which were my softspot - similar in nature to K8s.
> 
> I digressed - now my passion is around deep learning for retinal problems - you will be unaware retinopathy is a major affliction during high Gs. So this has become my latest thesis area - working with several retina surgeons across 3 countries on this.
> Alas that was my lifetime of work; i still smile when I get news of H2/H4 successes.
> 
> Unfortunately what i observed of PAF with their Mirages is complete lack of foresight going back 30 years back; it is this tunnel mindedness that has prevented innovation by non PAF engineers from taking the M3/5s to next level. Dont ask the French was our motto! They are the worst pimps you can get in this trade; instead we were all charged young men with engineering degrees who said we can do better as the outside world was against us, we will do better than them and without them - A middle finger to the europeans was our mantra and frankly we could not care; we had the soviets pivoting Mig23s against which our M3s were poor only F1s were up to the mark. Necessity was the mother of inventions. Our orders were make it better and clean slate given; no requirement but what was feasible which meant anything was doable.. No one from the airforce was part of the group; they were our customers. We presented our progress - options and solutions; that was it. They were there just to test and fly and report back every parameters. There were multiple entities part taking in the project each providing seperate frameworks. None but none answered or had air force personnel - we did not want pencil pushers or blockheads who stood between us and progress. This is what is lacking again and again in my humble opinion.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

denel said:


> Correct. There is no shortage of parts; think of it like out of support/out of product lifecycle product; you keep, you maintain/evolve as you wish. That is the beauty of this scenario. As I said there are tonnes of part jigs lying at Atlas still which can be leveraged; if needed just connect with the folks there as there are still a lot of people around who part took in the Cheetah program; will be happy to build up the orders for parts; better to get complete new parts supply that salvaging off older planes.
> 
> 
> Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.
> Many other pioneering works which i cannot say much about in vhf/hf manpacks, artillery, AAMs using TEWAs.
> Because of my work, i was closely working with people at Atlas during a lot of prototyping and testing which required getting into the Cheetahs or M3s or F1s; i did not mention integration challenges in Cheetah for multi-facets of embedded systems. during this time i had seen how cheetah evolved out from m3 at atlas.
> 
> I did not do anything on the Impalas which were my softspot - similar in nature to K8s.
> 
> I digressed - now my passion is around deep learning for retinal problems - you will be unaware retinopathy is a major affliction during high Gs. So this has become my latest thesis area - working with several retina surgeons across 3 countries on this.
> Alas that was my lifetime of work; i still smile when I get news of H2/H4 successes.
> 
> Unfortunately what i observed of PAF with their Mirages is complete lack of foresight going back 30 years back; it is this tunnel mindedness that has prevented innovation by non PAF engineers from taking the M3/5s to next level. Dont ask the French was our motto! They are the worst pimps you can get in this trade; instead we were all charged young men with engineering degrees who said we can do better as the outside world was against us, we will do better than them and without them - A middle finger to the europeans was our mantra and frankly we could not care; we had the soviets pivoting Mig23s against which our M3s were poor only F1s were up to the mark. Necessity was the mother of inventions. Our orders were make it better and clean slate given; no requirement but what was feasible which meant anything was doable.. No one from the airforce was part of the group; they were our customers. We presented our progress - options and solutions; that was it. They were there just to test and fly and report back every parameters. There were multiple entities part taking in the project each providing seperate frameworks. None but none answered or had air force personnel - we did not want pencil pushers or blockheads who stood between us and progress. This is what is lacking again and again in my humble opinion.


At the end of the production by the original OEM you become the OEM provided you love and care for the product as if it’s your own....

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## denel

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> At the end of the production by the original OEM you become the OEM provided you love and care for the product as if it’s your own....


Indeed, it becomes a multiplier for other countries to get theirs upgraded at your facilities; the potential becomes enormous.

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## notorious_eagle

denel said:


> Correction, I did not work on Pak Mirages; my work was multi-prong specialising in secure link communications - including pioneering work on how to make links ECM proof; this work landed up as comms units on your Mirages and part of it is embedded in H2/H4s which makes one of the guidance modes completely ECM proof as you found out in Feb missions over india deploying these beauties. Additionally on architecting protocols for Threat Awareness and Weapons Assignment decision support to automate choice of weapon selection on Rooikat/rooivalk.



Thanks for sharing this update with us. 

I can tell you from the horse's mouth that PAF is extremely happy with the H2/H4's cued up with the Mirage. PAF has tested these beauties in the most intense environments, and they have managed to operate beautifully and hit their targets with a bullseye. PAF has immense trust in these systems, and are literally the leading strike package solutions in PAF's arsenal.

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## denel

notorious_eagle said:


> Thanks for sharing this update with us.
> 
> I can tell you from the horse's mouth that PAF is extremely happy with the H2/H4's cued up with the Mirage. PAF has tested these beauties in the most intense environments, and they have managed to operate beautifully and hit their targets with a bullseye. PAF has immense trust in these systems, and are literally the leading strike package solutions in PAF's arsenal.


there is a big core module which is key in these which makes it impossible to break in heavy ECM environments. Same core technology is the backbone of zalink comms systems. It was a very simple idea yet foolproof.
It brings smile to me when i get such feedback; work put in 30+yrs back which was then built upon for other applications has paid big dividends for the clients.



Armchair said:


> Same problem has plagued HIT and the poor development of the AK. And KSEW. And Kamra it seems. Engineering projects should go to engineers not have interference from the military. These are not semi-retirement cushy jobs. They are not meant to be run like armed forces housing development projects.
> 
> Pak is one of those countries where the army has its own brand of corn flakes and handles weapons programs in the same way. Until we change this, no real progress is possible.


corn flakes? you must be joking; this is exactly the situation in Egypt where parallel industries are in play and that is where their leadership goes when retired from EA. Absolutely corruption to its core.

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## Quwa

Armchair said:


> Same problem has plagued HIT and the poor development of the AK. And KSEW. And Kamra it seems. Engineering projects should go to engineers not have interference from the military. These are not semi-retirement cushy jobs. They are not meant to be run like armed forces housing development projects.
> 
> Pak is one of those countries where the army has its own brand of corn flakes and handles weapons programs in the same way. Until we change this, no real progress is possible.


These entities are viewed like armories that make weapons, not product development organizations.

With Project Azm (and the jury is still out on it to be fair) the PAF created a new entity separate of PAC to spearhead the design work (AvDI and AvRID), ostensibly under engineers and not pencil pushers. But they clearly didn't want to do it under PAC.

You'd basically have to rework all of these entities to turn them into product designers.

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## messiach

Core module?
H2/4 follow a designated flightpath fed into telemetry. The final trajectory is modulated through pre-flight data and multiple infrared sensors similar and recently shown to be better than iris-T.



denel said:


> there is a big core module which is key in these which makes it impossible to break in heavy ECM environments.

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## Armchair

messiach said:


> Core module?
> H2/4 follow a designated flightpath fed into telemetry. The final trajectory is modulated through pre-flight data and multiple infrared sensors similar and recently shown to be better than iris-T.



Ma'am, I think Denel meant that the data-link between the launching aircraft and the missile is such that it cannot be broken. I'm guessing it uses multiple redundant encription that hops frequencies (a wild guess).



denel said:


> corn flakes? you must be joking;



I kid you not. The cornflakes they make aren't bad though, I grew up eating it 



Quwa said:


> These entities are viewed like armories that make weapons, not product development organizations.
> 
> With Project Azm (and the jury is still out on it to be fair) the PAF created a new entity separate of PAC to spearhead the design work (AvDI and AvRID), ostensibly under engineers and not pencil pushers. But they clearly didn't want to do it under PAC.
> 
> You'd basically have to rework all of these entities to turn them into product designers.



If that is true, and PAF has truly allowed engineers and scientists to get to the management, its a revolution, because this is where we have been stuck for the last 60 years. With the exception of the nuclear program (where again we allowed the scientists and engineers to take the lead).

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## denel

Armchair said:


> Ma'am, I think Denel meant that the data-link between the launching aircraft and the missile is such that it cannot be broken. I'm guessing it uses multiple redundant encription that hops frequencies (a wild guess).
> 
> 
> 
> I kid you not. The cornflakes they make aren't bad though, I grew up eating it
> 
> 
> 
> If that is true, and PAF has truly allowed engineers and scientists to get to the management, its a revolution, because this is where we have been stuck for the last 60 years. With the exception of the nuclear program (where again we allowed the scientists and engineers to take the lead).


you got the basics correct.

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Core module?
> H2/4 follow a designated flightpath fed into telemetry. The final trajectory is modulated through pre-flight data and multiple infrared sensors similar and recently shown to be better than iris-T.



Hi,

So is this a Launch & Forget type of weapon---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So is this a Launch & Forget type of weapon---.


there are multiple modes on it.

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## syed_yusuf

what happen to egyptian mirages?

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## messiach

@MastanKhan @Armchair 
Guidance flightpaths are either preset or variable, the latter could be either pursuit flightpaths or constant with and w/o bearing and then more advanced proportional navig. in our use.


denel said:


> there are multiple modes on it.

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Guidance flightpaths are either preset or variable, the latter could be either pursuit flightpaths or constant with and w/o bearing and then more advanced proportional navig.
> 
> 
> @MastanKhan
> Guidance flightpaths are either preset or variable, the latter could be either pursuit flightpaths or constant with and w/o bearing and then more advanced proportional navig. in our use.



Hi,

That is what I thought---.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> there are multiple modes on it.


The h2/4 had the indian army cheif in its sights and the bomb was guided to him but it wasn't befallen upon him but near to him sending a message.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Folks had brought this up a bunch of times, but the Raptor III would be an interesting addition. It seems to have an air-breathing engine, so it could be a hybrid between a glide-based SOW and ALCM. 







https://www.janes.com/article/43441/long-range-raptor-iii-goes-on-display-aad143

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## notorious_eagle

Path-Finder said:


> The h2/4 had the indian army cheif in its sights and the bomb was guided to him but it wasn't befallen upon him but near to him sending a message.



Correction, it was the Brigade Commander of the rank of Major General.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Folks had brought this up a bunch of times, but the Raptor III would be an interesting addition. It seems to have an air-breathing engine, so it could be a hybrid between a glide-based SOW and ALCM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/43441/long-range-raptor-iii-goes-on-display-aad143



I think key factor would be cost

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## Chak Bamu

denel said:


> there is a big core module which is key in these which makes it impossible to break in heavy ECM environments. Same core technology is the backbone of zalink comms systems. It was a very simple idea yet foolproof.
> It brings smile to me when i get such feedback; work put in 30+yrs back which was then built upon for other applications has paid big dividends for the clients.
> 
> 
> corn flakes? you must be joking; this is exactly the situation in Egypt where parallel industries are in play and that is where their leadership goes when retired from EA. Absolutely corruption to its core.



Thank you @denel 

I have always respected you & read your posts with great interest. Your expertise is far above self-styled experts here at PDF. Pakistan Air Force has an ally in South Africa.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Chak Bamu said:


> Thank you @denel
> 
> I have always respected you & read your posts with great interest. Your expertise is far above self-styled experts here at PDF. Pakistan Air Force has an ally in South Africa.


But I think we've been slow to the uptake. Granted, there's the Indian influence, but you also have a native counter-force (as evidenced by @denel himself) that we don't see often. 

At some point, we might need to come to terms with the reality that our side just isn't doing as good a job as it could be, esp. when South Africa signed a MoU with us in 2017 to, word-for-word, “acquisition of defence equipment as well as cooperation in Research and Development (R&D), Transfer of Technology, Co-production/Joint Ventures in public as well as private sector.”

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But I think we've been slow to the uptake. Granted, there's the Indian influence, but you also have a native counter-force (as evidenced by @denel himself) that we don't see often.
> 
> At some point, we might need to come to terms with the reality that our side just isn't doing as good a job as it could be, esp. when South Africa signed a MoU with us in 2017 to, word-for-word, “acquisition of defence equipment as well as cooperation in Research and Development (R&D), Transfer of Technology, Co-production/Joint Ventures in public as well as private sector.”


Bilal especially after the GUpta saga, the indian influence is no more; there is absolute hate and contempt for any word India Indians; we must keep in mind we have SA asian indians who are generations down who are part of this country and have no alliegence to their ancestoral home. There are many synergies between Pak and SA in terms of TOT and cooperation in many so many areas; again we must ensure it is engineering to engineering pollination as our SANDF resources are not affiliated or associated to our defence entities.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

I was wondering what variants of the Mirage we were operating and how many of them have been upgraded? 
I know the V PA3 were not part of ROSE, but what about the other ones we operated, III EP, V PA, V PA2, were these all upgraded to ROSE or was it only limited to ex-RAAF/LAF airframes.
Also do we still operate the III RP variant?


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## sparten

denel said:


> there is a big core module which is key in these which makes it impossible to break in heavy ECM environments. Same core technology is the backbone of zalink comms systems. It was a very simple idea yet foolproof.
> It brings smile to me when i get such feedback; work put in 30+yrs back which was then built upon for other applications has paid big dividends for the clients.
> 
> 
> corn flakes? you must be joking; this is exactly the situation in Egypt where parallel industries are in play and that is where their leadership goes when retired from EA. Absolutely corruption to its core.


No. That’s the Fauji Foundation, which is **not** part of the Army.


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## aliyusuf

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> I was wondering what variants of the Mirage we were operating and how many of them have been upgraded?
> I know the V PA3 were not part of ROSE, but what about the other ones we operated, III EP, V PA, V PA2, were these all upgraded to ROSE or was it only limited to ex-RAAF/LAF airframes.
> Also do we still operate the III RP variant?


Originally ...
*33 Mirage IIIEA* Upgraded to *ROSE-I* with modern avionics and Grifo-M3 radars (mid to late 90s)
*19 Mirage VEF* were upgraded by Sagem to *ROSE-II* with updated Nav/Attack Systems (early 2000s)
*14 Mirage VEF* were later upgraded to *ROSE-III* with even more updated avionics & FLIR (for specialized night attack capabilities)
After that no news has come out in the general public domain about up-gradations of more Mirages.

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## Armchair

sparten said:


> No. That’s the Fauji Foundation, which is **not** part of the Army.



Tell that to the people running fauji foundation. U think civilians run this or ex military?

Oscar has suggested many mirages went through a ROSE like program but with local substitutes. This was not openly declared

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Armchair said:


> Tell that to the people running fauji foundation. U think civilians run this or ex military?
> 
> Oscar has suggested many mirages went through a ROSE like program but with local substitutes. This was not openly declared


Devils lie in the details...

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## CHI RULES

Armchair said:


> Same problem has plagued HIT and the poor development of the AK. And KSEW. And Kamra it seems. Engineering projects should go to engineers not have interference from the military. These are not semi-retirement cushy jobs. They are not meant to be run like armed forces housing development projects.
> 
> Pak is one of those countries where the army has its own brand of corn flakes and handles weapons programs in the same way. Until we change this, no real progress is possible.



Sir, please don't comment on matters you don't know correctly. PA or it's serving personnel do not have any role in running Fauji Foundation projects., these projects though managed by retired high ranking officers as directors or chairman yet they are run operationally by thorough professionals whose details you may get from net. The projects are highly profitable a part from Fauji cereals.

*Purpose of projects: *To create funds for general welfare of the Pak Army and to support economically the families of Shaheeds or military guys who became disable during operational duties. Further they are big sources to contribute positively in ever shrinking economy of the country along with creation of thousands of job opportunities. Believe me I know better as I am serving in one such organisation, further with the economy going down the employees of these organisations have faced the consequences as many of their benefits are withdrawn even in profitable projects like Askari Bank Ltd and Fauji Fertilizers. 

The current management is working to achieve maximum profits despite harsh conditions. Instead of criticizing one should suggest that organizations like WAPDA, Police and even PTCL should also be encouraged to start such foundations which shall contribute to wards welfare of their staff and retired persons. It's a fact that Pakistan Govt due to a number of reasons cannot afford to provide basics to regular tax payers like me so international standards do not apply here.

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## denel

@MastanKhan - http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1160750.shtml

New JH-7AII is being announced. Looks like this remains available to the contratians.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/jh-7-jh-7a-jh-7b-thread.t912/page-177

Look at the picture of the technician; the clearance shows how large this platform is.

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## Armchair

CHI RULES said:


> Sir, please don't comment on matters you don't know correctly. PA or it's serving personnel do not have any role in running Fauji Foundation projects., these projects though managed by retired high ranking officers as directors or chairman yet they are run operationally by thorough professionals whose details you may get from net. The projects are highly profitable a part from Fauji cereals.
> 
> *Purpose of projects: *To create funds for general welfare of the Pak Army and to support economically the families of Shaheeds or military guys who became disable during operational duties. Further they are big sources to contribute positively in ever shrinking economy of the country along with creation of thousands of job opportunities. Believe me I know better as I am serving in one such organisation, further with the economy going down the employees of these organisations have faced the consequences as many of their benefits are withdrawn even in profitable projects like Askari Bank Ltd and Fauji Fertilizers.
> 
> The current management is working to achieve maximum profits despite harsh conditions. Instead of criticizing one should suggest that organizations like WAPDA, Police and even PTCL should also be encouraged to start such foundations which shall contribute to wards welfare of their staff and retired persons. It's a fact that Pakistan Govt due to a number of reasons cannot afford to provide basics to regular tax payers like me so international standards do not apply here.


So you admit "high ranking retired MILITARY personnel run this place" and then don't want me to talk about it. At least learn how to carry a conversation without being condescending, otherwise we will assume you are a pimply faced 15 year old having hormonal changes.



denel said:


> @MastanKhan - http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1160750.shtml
> 
> New JH-7AII is being announced. Looks like this remains available to the contratians.
> 
> https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/jh-7-jh-7a-jh-7b-thread.t912/page-177
> 
> Look at the picture of the technician; the clearance shows how large this platform is.


It will dwarf other PAF assets.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> So you admit "high ranking retired MILITARY personnel run this place" and then don't want me to talk about it. At least learn how to carry a conversation without being condescending, otherwise we will assume you are a pimply faced 15 year old having hormonal changes.
> 
> 
> It will dwarf other PAF assets.



Hi,

It is the military business consortium---and there is nothing wrong with it if there are retd military officers running it---.

These businesses are run professionally with profit in mind and good working environment---.

This is the reason our veterans and the families of soldiers who gave away their lives are not on the street or lack medical attention---.

These businesses provide jobs to the veterans & their families as well---. 

Many a countries retd military personal wish that their military had similar businesses to provide jobs and welfare to out of service vets---.

It is the best program in the world so far that I know of---.



denel said:


> @MastanKhan - http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1160750.shtml
> 
> New JH-7AII is being announced. Looks like this remains available to the contratians.
> 
> https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/jh-7-jh-7a-jh-7b-thread.t912/page-177
> 
> Look at the picture of the technician; the clearance shows how large this platform is.



Hi,

As much as china wants to---they don't have a replacement for this aircraft for naval strike missions---.

Once upgraded with modern avionics---EW suite and new aesa radar---this aircraft if a force multiplier---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is the military business consortium---and there is nothing wrong with it if there are retd military officers running it---.
> 
> These businesses are run professionally with profit in mind and good working environment---.
> 
> This is the reason our veterans and the families of soldiers who gave away their lives are not on the street or lack medical attention---.
> 
> These businesses provide jobs to the veterans & their families as well---.
> 
> Many a countries retd military personal wish that their military had similar businesses to provide jobs and welfare to out of service vets---.
> 
> It is the best program in the world so far that I know of---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As much as china wants to---they don't have a replacement for this aircraft for naval strike missions---.
> 
> Once upgraded with modern avionics---EW suite and new aesa radar---this aircraft if a force multiplier---.


Correct!!! they have not announced the details but more than likely they have improvised on the electronics side including radar.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Correct!!! they have not announced the details but more than likely they have improvised on the electronics side including radar.



Hi,

Possibly the new Aesa radar would be of the same size as that of the other double digit J models---somewhere around 1550 T/R modules---a newer EW package---& jammers---.

It would be interesting to see what else becomes available on this aircraft---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Possibly the new Aesa radar would be of the same size as that of the other double digit J models---somewhere around 1550 T/R modules---a newer EW package---& jammers---.
> 
> It would be interesting to see what else becomes available on this aircraft---.





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Possibly the new Aesa radar would be of the same size as that of the other double digit J models---somewhere around 1550 T/R modules---a newer EW package---& jammers---.
> 
> It would be interesting to see what else becomes available on this aircraft---.



Absolutely, the reliability of the engines alone is excellent based off the Spey RB168 makes is a very much known quantity; the scale of this aircraft is huge in comparison to what else is available in PAF; not to mention terrain following radar. I am not sure if the ROSE program on the M3/M5 delivered anything in relative equivalence.

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## CHI RULES

Armchair said:


> So you admit "high ranking retired MILITARY personnel run this place" and then don't want me to talk about it. At least learn how to carry a conversation without being condescending, otherwise we will assume you are a pimply faced 15 year old having hormonal changes.
> 
> 
> It will dwarf other PAF assets.



I shall say no more than to clarify that any of foundation project is not run by a serving Army person. The foundation is run by a mix of retd Army High ranking officials serving as Chairman of the foundation or directors but operational issues are run by thorough professionals. Some foreign members had misconception and as I am already serving in one such organisation so just gave clarification. If you are offended by a fact even than a fact remains fact that Fauji foundation was never ever run by any serving Army person. Few Pak traitors have used AWT or Fauji Foundation projects to defame my country and my organisation at least I am honest with both of them and have no shame to challenge any one on basis of facts.

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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> I shall say no more than to clarify that any of foundation project is not run by a serving Army person. The foundation is run by a mix of retd Army High ranking officials serving as Chairman of the foundation or directors but operational issues are run by thorough professionals. Some foreign members had misconception and as I am already serving in one such organisation so just gave clarification. If you are offended by a fact even than a fact remains fact that Fauji foundation was never ever run by any serving Army person. Few Pak traitors have used AWT or Fauji Foundation projects to defame my country and my organisation at least I am honest with both of them and have no shame to challenge any one on basis of facts.


I hope this is not a repeat of what I have seen occur in Egypt; a good friend of mine tried to setup of cereal plant in Egypt; he was harassed and taken from pillar to post; he was in direct competition with the EA run enterprises and therefore after 2 years and lot of money wasted walked out as it was an impossible situation with a complete strangle hold on any food enterprises by their armed forces. 
If they are able to allow competition e.g. they are not the sole provider of cereals then i say keep going on.

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## TsAr

denel said:


> I hope this is not a repeat of what I have seen occur in Egypt; a good friend of mine tried to setup of cereal plant in Egypt; he was harassed and taken from pillar to post; he was in direct competition with the EA run enterprises and therefore after 2 years and lot of money wasted walked out as it was an impossible situation with a complete strangle hold on any food enterprises by their armed forces.
> If they are able to allow competition e.g. they are not the sole provider of cereals then i say keep going on.


No they are not the sole competitors here, there are multinationals operating here way before they started the business

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Absolutely, the reliability of the engines alone is excellent based off the Spey RB168 makes is a very much known quantity; the scale of this aircraft is huge in comparison to what else is available in PAF; not to mention terrain following radar. I am not sure if the ROSE program on the M3/M5 delivered anything in relative equivalence.



Hi,

They do not have the load and legs of the JH7A's---.

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## CHI RULES

denel said:


> I hope this is not a repeat of what I have seen occur in Egypt; a good friend of mine tried to setup of cereal plant in Egypt; he was harassed and taken from pillar to post; he was in direct competition with the EA run enterprises and therefore after 2 years and lot of money wasted walked out as it was an impossible situation with a complete strangle hold on any food enterprises by their armed forces.
> If they are able to allow competition e.g. they are not the sole provider of cereals then i say keep going on.



Sir that's why I explained here that Pakistan is still a more free country unlike it's image unfortunately made by our own traitors in outer world. Egypt is one of the most controlled and brutal country in Islamic world where no one has liberties. The Fauji cereals as per my best knowledge was not in profit till near past though they are offering relatively cheap food products yet facing heavy competition from better quality food products i.e both domestic and foreign.

However monopolies are not created by Military owned organizations in the country but mostly by the Politician cum investors and Multinationals like Honda/ Suzuki in auto market, Coke and Pepsi in soft drinks ( products like Double Cola and RC cola were classically annihilated by them ) and somewhat Walls in ice cream sector though they are supplying ice products with vegetable contents not good for health yet in beginning they got ownership of Polka and then destroyed market of other domestic ice creams like Yummy and Roco dairy ice cream.

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## Armchair

CHI RULES said:


> I shall say no more than to clarify that any of foundation project is not run by a serving Army person. The foundation is run by a mix of retd Army High ranking officials serving as Chairman of the foundation or directors but operational issues are run by thorough professionals. Some foreign members had misconception and as I am already serving in one such organisation so just gave clarification. If you are offended by a fact even than a fact remains fact that Fauji foundation was never ever run by any serving Army person. Few Pak traitors have used AWT or Fauji Foundation projects to defame my country and my organisation at least I am honest with both of them and have no shame to challenge any one on basis of facts.


One of my former students ended up in the top management of Fauji Foundation. And you were saying...
Armies job is to fight. They get a pension they should be like all other Pakistanis finding employment based on merit. 
Not turn the armed forces into a conglomerate of business enterprises. These organisations are poorly run... Anyways we have gone off topic so I will end here.


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## CHI RULES

Hope some one should post some information in detail about Mirage Horus and whether they have been handed over to PAF or not.


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## Maxpane

so we can replace mirages with jh 7 with out wasting time


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## CHI RULES

Armchair said:


> One of my former students ended up in the top management of Fauji Foundation. And you were saying...
> Armies job is to fight. They get a pension they should be like all other Pakistanis finding employment based on merit.
> Not turn the armed forces into a conglomerate of business enterprises. These organisations are poorly run... Anyways we have gone off topic so I will end here.


As an insider since last 13 Years I think I can clarify many matters the issue of Fauji Foundation was brought on thread so came in to clear matters not to offend anybody or change opinions. The individual acts do not count in business world overall the group is in profitability so one may assume that it is still run by capable persons.

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## araz

CHI RULES said:


> As an insider since last 13 Years I think I can clarify many matters the issue of Fauji Foundation was brought on thread so came in to clear matters not to offend anybody or change opinions. The individual acts do not count in business world overall the group is in profitability so one may assume that it is still run by capable persons.


Thank you very much for your informative posts. I also thank you in the way you have conducted your selves. I agree that this is a thread dedicated to Mirage fighter jets of PAF and not to the fauji foundation. Therefore can we all remember to keep on topic please.
On to Mirage 3/5 the burning questions are:
A what is happening to the EAF Horus Mirages. Have they been handed over. How many will be activated to PAF current assetts?
B. What local avionics upgrades have been carried out on the PAF M3/5s?
A response on thise would be appreciated

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## Code_Geass

As long as they are not hurting competition in the industries they operate in i m okay


Armchair said:


> One of my former students ended up in the top management of Fauji Foundation. And you were saying...
> Armies job is to fight. They get a pension they should be like all other Pakistanis finding employment based on merit.
> Not turn the armed forces into a conglomerate of business enterprises. These organisations are poorly run... Anyways we have gone off topic so I will end here.


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## LKJ86

denel said:


> Look at the picture of the technician; the clearance shows how large this platform is.


The size of JH-7A is close to J-11B.

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## Armchair

CHI RULES said:


> As an insider since last 13 Years I think I can clarify many matters the issue of Fauji Foundation was brought on thread so came in to clear matters not to offend anybody or change opinions. The individual acts do not count in business world overall the group is in profitability so one may assume that it is still run by capable persons.



It is misuse of scarce resources of the country to run incompetent organisations. If you were honest with your 13 Years of experience, you would have been the first person to point these out and not tried to shut me up. 

@araz I expect more balanced contribution from you. I now understand why you don't get along with MastanKhan



CHI RULES said:


> Sir, please don't comment on matters you don't know correctly


Now, let us see this statement of yours... I say it is condescending and dishonest. This is the 3rd time @araz shows up in a situation like that and acts like he is a mod, siding on the side that is full of BS.

Yes, now we will go back to the topic.

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## araz

Armchair said:


> It is misuse of scarce resources of the country to run incompetent organisations. If you were honest with your 13 Years of experience, you would have been the first person to point these out and not tried to shut me up.
> 
> @araz I expect more balanced contribution from you. I now understand why you don't get along with MastanKhan
> 
> 
> Now, let us see this statement of yours... I say it is condescending and dishonest. This is the 3rd time @araz shows up in a situation like that and acts like he is a mod, siding on the side that is full of BS.
> 
> Yes, now we will go back to the topic.


Bhai.
There is nothing disbalanced about my post. All that I ask is that you continue the discussion in the relevant topic. The reason for complimenting his post was the civilized manner in which he had responded to the post form another poster. This thread is about M3/5s so discuss M3/5s here. If you want to discuss Fauji foundation do so in a separate thread which you are free to open.
As to me stepping in I have that right as a TT to request people to stick to the topic at hand. You seem to have a grudge against me and if you do please come on to PM and we can resolve it there. I dont intend to wash dirty laundry in open public threads for a matter which appears to be between 2 people. My dispute with Mastan Khan is a separate issue and again it remains between me and Mastan khan. I have no desire to open up and talk about it to you or indeed anyone else. If Mastan Khan wants to resolve it he is more than welcome to PM me although our issue has nothing of substance to it.
Now that I have clarified the situation it is upto you to act on it. Otherwise please put me on your ignore list and move on.
A



LKJ86 said:


> The size of JH-7A is close to J-11B.
> View attachment 573591


Can you please explain the relevance of this post to the thread at hand?
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> Can you please explain the relevance of this post to the thread at hand?
> A


I think it's the side-discussion re: a potential Mirage III/5 replacement. As @MastanKhan brought up from the very start (here's ur credit man), the JH-7A is basically the only fighter-bomber solution available to the PAF in as far as lobbing big SOWs (H-2, H-4s, Ra'ad, Ra'ad II, and Mk. 84-based REKs) is concerned. 

And, to be honest, he's right -- if doubling down on more JF-17s is the only route, then why not shore-up the heavyweight stuff using the JH-7A while using JF-17s as escorts/support fighters?

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think it's the side-discussion re: a potential Mirage III/5 replacement. As @MastanKhan brought up from the very start (here's ur credit man), the JH-7A is basically the only fighter-bomber solution available to the PAF in as far as lobbing big SOWs (H-2, H-4s, Ra'ad, Ra'ad II, and Mk. 84-based REKs) is concerned.
> 
> And, to be honest, he's right -- if doubling down on more JF-17s is the only route, then why not shore-up the heavyweight stuff using the JH-7A while using JF-17s as escorts/support fighters?



Hi,

Thank you---there is no other way and nothing else available---.

Add to that CM400AKG---Babur cruise missile---and every other weapon with around 11-1200 KG weight range---.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you---there is no other way and nothing else available---.
> 
> Add to that CM400AKG---Babur cruise missile---and every other weapon with around 11-1200 KG weight range---.


A known enemy is better than an unknown friend!!! Here, it’s about a known friend vs an unknown enemy...

A Dana-dar Dushman is better than a Na-dan Dost!!! Here, it’s Dana-dar Dost vs Na-dan Dushman....

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## Arsalan

Continue with discussion regarding JH7 and its utility for PAF on the following thread:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/utility-of-jh7-for-paf.632111/


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## jupiter2007

Arsalan said:


> Continue with discussion regarding JH7 and its utility for PAF on the following thread:
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/utility-of-jh7-for-paf.632111/


 We are not getting JH-7. What’s the point of discussing it? We aren’t getting anything in near future. Whole focus is on Jf-17 block 3


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## messiach

LKJ86 said:


> The size of JH-7A is close to J-11B.
> View attachment 573591


@MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Thats a 16-19t giant from spratley islands, underpowered by series-9 engines & before by r-r twin spey. The last one i saw had no better terrain hugging capability then what we had. These radar-discreate creatures would be difficult to defend against susraeli A2A weapons. Its carriage capacity of YJ12 & ELiNT is a credit - useful feature. Before BOTS look to see what capacity enhancement it can bring versus what we have versus short and longterm line maintenance costs.

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> @MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Thats a 16-19t giant from spratley islands, underpowered by series-9 engines & before by r-r twin spey. The last one i saw had no better terrain hugging capability then what we had. These radar-discreate creatures would be difficult to defend against susraeli A2A weapons. Its carriage capacity of YJ12 & ELiNT is a credit - useful feature. Before BOTS look to see what capacity enhancement it can bring versus what we have versus short and longterm line maintenance costs.



Hi,

So---where would the israeli AA weapons be placed on the ocean to target this aircraft---if it flies from Pasni---goes straight down staying 400-500 miles parallel from indian coastline---dash in to standoff distance at the desired target---launch its load and dash back---.

You are the smartest one here---tell me which SA missile can reach this aircraft from the coastline---.

Please also share which AWAC can find a sea skimming aircraft at 250 miles range---.

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## Arsalan

jupiter2007 said:


> We are not getting JH-7. What’s the point of discussing it? We aren’t getting anything in near future. Whole focus is on Jf-17 block 3


The discussion is not about PAF GETTING the plan but its utility for PAF.

I do agree that there is absolutely no chance of getting JH-7 in foreseeable future.

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## khanasifm

I am sure Paf had evaluated all Chinese options and would have gone for it if it met the air staff requirements

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## messiach

Onboard indian MKI.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> So---where would the israeli AA weapons be placed on the ocean to target this aircraft---if it flies from Pasni---goes straight down staying 400-500 miles parallel from indian coastline---dash in to standoff distance at the desired target---launch its load and dash back---.



@Tps43


MastanKhan said:


> Please also share which AWAC can find a sea skimming aircraft at 250 miles range



No more smart - getting upto 60.


MastanKhan said:


> You are the smartest one here
> .

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Onboard indian MKI.
> 
> 
> @Tps43
> 
> 
> No more smart - getting upto 60.



Hi

Hehehe.


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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think it's the side-discussion re: a potential Mirage III/5 replacement. As @MastanKhan brought up from the very start (here's ur credit man), the JH-7A is basically the only fighter-bomber solution available to the PAF in as far as lobbing big SOWs (H-2, H-4s, Ra'ad, Ra'ad II, and Mk. 84-based REKs) is concerned.
> 
> And, to be honest, he's right -- if doubling down on more JF-17s is the only route, then why not shore-up the heavyweight stuff using the JH-7A while using JF-17s as escorts/support fighters?



Hi,

If the US can convert & modernize the B52 to do miracles in wars of the future---there is no reason that the Paf cannot do the same to the JH7A on a smaller scale---.

The problem over here is not the abiity or the disability of the JH7A---the real problem here is the PAKISTANI---. Once they say no---it is a no---( Khotay wali No ).

Not a single one of you have given any TACTICAL REASONING FOR no JH7A---. Right now it is all copy paste from wiki---.

Never ever forget that these were the same people who Rejected the Rafale and stated that it was not worth it---. Prior to that they had made the same claim about the F7PG's as well---.

See---the man behind the machine is a lie---. The machine has to be superior for the the man to do his thing---.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If the US can convert & modernize the B52 to do miracles in wars of the future---there is no reason that the Paf cannot do the same to the JH7A on a smaller scale---.
> 
> The problem over here is not the abiity or the disability of the JH7A---the real problem here is the PAKISTANI---. Once they say no---it is a no---( Khotay wali No ).
> 
> Not a single one of you have given any TACTICAL REASONING FOR no JH7A---. Right now it is all copy paste from wiki---.
> 
> Never ever forget that these were the same people who Rejected the Rafale and stated that it was not worth it---. Prior to that they had made the same claim about the F7PG's as well---.
> 
> See---the man behind the machine is a lie---. The machine has to be superior for the the man to do his thing---.



USAF B52s fly as they have air superiority/dominance, which PAF will not have in an Indo-Pak war.

The problem is with the JH-7A, not in its availability. And your scenario is so simple, it is not even worth mentioning in the context of justifying PAF/PN buying it. It will be easily detected at very long ranges over the ocean by IAF early warning radars and AEW aircraft and duly intercepted by their Su-30s and Rafales. Even if it turns back in time to avoid being shot down, it will be a failed mission anyways. 

PS, I was surprised to read your comments on how cheap this aircraft is to procure even if we lose them easily in war, while completely ignoring how much more expensive those two pilots riding in thing would be. We all should also know that flyaway costs are only a small portion of what it would mean to induct, maintain and fly this junk for another 30 years. Basically a glorified enlarged Mig-21 with terrible build quality.

Also, where and when did the PAF or anyone ever state that Rafale was not worth it? I am curious. Similarly, how can you even imply the same comments were made of the F-7PG when PAF was the first importer of the type and was really excited by its performance from the get go when trialed in China?

You still need a competent person behind the machine to fully utilize it. Technology, while has made some tasks easier and workload less (when concerning basic flying, situational awareness etc) has not made flying easier and pilots nowadays have to work with loads of new data and threats as well as complex scenarios and similarly advanced threats to contend with. So the man behind the machine absolutely matters.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you had a tad bit of knowledge---you would NOT have written what you did---.
> 
> Low flying aircraft over water are the most difficult objects to be traced---.
> 
> Secondly---same with the upgraded B52---. There is no air superiority required to use this vehicle---.
> 
> Listen---don't cut your nose to spite me---.
> 
> The upgraded B52 is designed to operate and strike from standoff distances without the enemy knowing if it came---.
> 
> As you do not know the original analysis by the Paf about the F7PG's and the Rafale years ago---you are not upto PAR to enter this discussion---so please if you can kindly keep away from it---it may benefit the audience---.
> 
> Big deal if the pilots are lost---that is what they are there for---. That is why we have the ratio of 3 per aircraft---.
> 
> The most important part is the weapon---.



I disagree with your B52 comparison, but I will leave it at that. 

If I am so uninformed about PAFs original analysis of Rafale and F-7PG, enlighten me and numerous others on this board so we can learn something new besides taking your word for it.

Ill leave your pilot comment as it does not merit a response.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> If you did not know about the F7PG and Rafale analysis of Paf---then you could have just kept your mouth shut so not to be embarrassed---.
> 
> You want to talk to me----raise your standard and level of knowledge before you jump into the frey---.



You are good at beating around the bush. Put your money where your mouth is, as they say, and raise my level of knowledge. Cant ask more clearly than that.

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> You are good at beating around the bush. Put your money where your mouth is, as they say, and raise my level of knowledge. Cant ask more clearly than that.



Hi,

I am not a BABY SITTER---get your info updated about those two aircraft and the B52 capabilities---. 

I understand that it is difficult for me to discuss with pakistani children---but please raise your standards of discussion---be prepared---be informed---be knowledgeable about the subject matter---before you jump in---.


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## Imran Khan



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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am not a BABY SITTER---get your info updated about those two aircraft and the B52 capabilities---.
> 
> I understand that it is difficult for me to discuss with pakistani children---but please raise your standards of discussion---be prepared---be informed---be knowledgeable about the subject matter---before you jump in---.



I think you just make excuses every time you get called on your claims. Not the first time either so I should expect it. As for being informed, if everyone here knew it all, there would be no point in coming here. I certainly don't, and neither do I pretend to. But its interesting when asked, you seem to provide no real knowledge or information and are so quick to tell others to go learn on their own.

As for the subject matter ... I didnt realize we all had to be experts here on PAF's decision making centered around platforms. So I would offer you the same suggestion as you did me, that is keep your mouth shut or prove it otherwise.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I put a lots of time and effort into what I write and then some one comes along and he does not know what happened when the Chinese offered the F7PG's to pak air force in the late 90's and what was Paf's reply---or what the Paf ACM stated about the pre 2005 Rafale testing after the french struck Libya to over throw Qaddafi and how he changed his position about the aircraft---.


Then kindly, do not tell me to shut up next time if you don't feel like "offering up" anything.

As for the F-7PGs, it was only inducted into PLAAF in 1993, and the first time observers got to see it was in 1998 at Zhuhai Airshow. PAF ordered 57 of them in the initial batch the following year in 1999. So I guess we know what happened when the Chinese offered it to us in the late 90s I suppose.


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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> Then kindly, do not tell me to shut up next time if you don't feel like "offering up" anything.
> 
> As for the F-7PGs, it was only inducted into PLAAF in 1993, and the first time observers got to see it was in 1998 at Zhuhai Airshow. PAF ordered 57 of them in the initial batch the following year in 1999. So I guess we know what happened when the Chinese offered it to us in the late 90s I suppose.



Again---you are just winging it---without knowing the story behind it---.


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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Again---you are just winging it---without knowing the story behind it---.



And back to square one ... very predictable.

To other members here, who like myself are not privy to the internal decision making of PAF, here is a point to ponder. We are in love with our 60s vintage Mirage III/Vs, albeit updated. We tried, not once but three time to acquire Mirage 2000s from France and then again from Qatar at least once. That is how highly PAF seems to think of Dassault and its products. Now, if someone comes along to tell you, without any supporting evidence, or heck even any context, that PAF thought very little of their latest and greatest fighter jet, to take it with a grain of salt and keep your skeptical caps on.

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## Code_Geass

MastanKhan said:


> Again---you are just winging it---without knowing the story behind it---.


why dont you tell the story...

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## aliyusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> It will be easily detected at very long ranges over the ocean by IAF early warning radars and AEW aircraft and duly intercepted by their Su-30s and Rafales. Even if it turns back in time to avoid being shot down, it will be a failed mission anyways.


Intriguing point you have raised. Do you know what the RCS of a JH-7A is btw or you are just making a generalization based on size? Is it's RCS more than an Su-30MKI?

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## Philip the Arab

aliyusuf said:


> Intriguing point you have raised. Do you know what the RCS of a JH-7A is btw or you are just making a generalization based on size? Is it's RCS more than an Su-30MKI?


I think its RCS is much higher than JF-17 and F-16 for sure. It could have similar RCS to Su-27 or Su-30 possibly due to large size. That being said, Israeli systems are state of the art and are probably optimized to look for JF-17 and F-16 radar signatures especially and they will be detected at rather far ranges.

Is Mirage 3/5 the only nuke capable strike aircraft in PAF inventory?


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## aliyusuf

Philip the Arab said:


> It could have similar RCS to Su-27 or Su-30 possibly due to large size



@GriffinsRule 

You cannot assume comparative RCS just by looking at the size of an object.

F-22 & B-2 are quite big too. Bigger than JF-17 & F-16. What makes their RCS only a fraction of the latter two?

Very simply put, that would primarily be the shape and then the composition of material used to make it's exposed surfaces. The shape diverts radar signals and the material absorbs them. Hence lesser radar signals get reflected back to make it less visible to the enemy radar.

The JH-7A may quite likely have a big RCS. So does the MKI. And when you have a non-AESA non-LPI radar on board, switching it on increases the RCS greatly. Achilles heel for the MKI.

But the point is that whether the new proposed JH-7AII (equipped with AESA & TDL with Link-17) can effectively launch a number of SOWs from long distance and then scoot before the enemy can do anything about it? If it can, then we have a platform that can hit farther and much harder than what we currently have.



Philip the Arab said:


> Is Mirage 3/5 the only nuke capable strike aircraft in PAF inventory?


Wouldn't post a reply on this even if I knew.

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## Philip the Arab

aliyusuf said:


> You cannot assume comparative RCS just by looking at the size of an object.
> 
> F-22 & B-2 are quite big too. Bigger than JF-17 & F-16. What makes their RCS only a fraction of the latter two.
> 
> Very simply put, that would primarily be the shape and then the composition of material used to make it's exposed surfaces. The shape diverts radar signals and the material absorbs them. Hence lesser radar signals get reflected back to make it less visible to enemy radar.
> 
> The JH-7A may quite likely have a big RCS. So does the MKI. And when you have a non-AESA non-LPI radar on board, switching it on increases the RCS greatly. Achilles heel for the MKI.
> 
> But the point is that whether the new proposed JH-7AII (equipped with AESA & TDL with Link-17) can effectively launch a number of SOWs from long distance and then scoot before the enemy can do anything about it? If it can, then we have a platform that can hit farther and much harder than what we currently have.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't post a reply on this even if I knew.


I can find the answer online about the nuke capable aircraft but don't feel like looking.

Can't cruise missiles be ground launched and do just what the JH-7 can do?


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## aliyusuf

Philip the Arab said:


> Can't cruise missiles be ground launched and do just what the JH-7 can do?


Launching ALCMs (from the air), farther towards the enemy, can cover hell of a lot more targets deeper inside enemy territory and gives added tactical & strategic advantage.

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## Philip the Arab

aliyusuf said:


> Launching ALCMs (from the air), farther towards the enemy, can cover hell of a lot more targets deeper inside enemy territory and gives added tactical & strategic advantage.


Getting inside Indian airspace for extended periods of time is very risky. Indian air defense is probably under estimated right now and will expand with Israeli purchases.


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## aliyusuf

Philip the Arab said:


> Getting inside Indian airspace for extended periods of time is very risky. Indian air defense is probably under estimated right now and will expand with Israeli purchases.


These are pretty good at low level flight. That is a help. It's lower level ride performance is much better than our Mirages. Especially for the naval scenario, these would be a great added punch against enemy fleet. The JH-7AII will also be sporting a good ELINT/EW suite.

These need not stay too long inside enemy air space. But they could launch SOWs from further inside enemy territory than our Mirages (which are not optimized for low level flight).

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## Philip the Arab

aliyusuf said:


> These are pretty good at low level flight. That is a help. It's lower level ride performance is much better than our Mirages. Especially for the naval scenario, these would be a great added punch against enemy fleet. The JH-7AII will also be sporting a good ELINT/EW suite.
> 
> These need not stay too long inside enemy air space. But they could launch SOWs from further inside enemy territory than our Mirages (which are not optimized for low level flight).


What do you mean by cover a lot more territory? The quote 2 posts up.


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## MastanKhan

Code_Geass said:


> why dont you tell the story...



Hi,

It has been told here 20 + times---.



GriffinsRule said:


> And back to square one ... very predictable.
> 
> To other members here, who like myself are not privy to the internal decision making of PAF, here is a point to ponder. We are in love with our 60s vintage Mirage III/Vs, albeit updated. We tried, not once but three time to acquire Mirage 2000s from France and then again from Qatar at least once. That is how highly PAF seems to think of Dassault and its products. Now, if someone comes along to tell you, without any supporting evidence, or heck even any context, that PAF thought very little of their latest and greatest fighter jet, to take it with a grain of salt and keep your skeptical caps on.



Hi,

The story has been told here 20 + times---. Search it---find it---learn about it---.

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## syed_yusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It has been told here 20 + times---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The story has been told here 20 + times---. Search it---find it---learn about it---.



i agree, without any disrespect, dont want to go into M2000 discussion.

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## MystryMan

aliyusuf said:


> These are pretty good at low level flight. That is a help. It's lower level ride performance is much better than our Mirages. Especially for the naval scenario, these would be a great added punch against enemy fleet. The JH-7AII will also be sporting a good ELINT/EW suite.
> 
> These need not stay too long inside enemy air space. But they could launch SOWs from further inside enemy territory than our Mirages (which are not optimized for low level flight).


And IAF has to deploy assets to counter this strike force of JH-7AII, thining its forces in other sectors as pointed out by @MastanKhan.

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## The Accountant

Guys i dont know why we behave naive. There is no 2 question about utility of a dedicated navy strike fighter but what is more necessary offence or defence ? PN prime asset even as off today are F22P ... those ships cant even defend themselves properly and we are talking about attack aircrafts.

We have taken first right step for naval defense in the form of proxurement of submarines type 54 and milgem along with deployment of herba. Completion of these weapon systems will take a decade after which we might have funds for dedicated naval attack fighters...

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## MastanKhan

MystryMan said:


> And IAF has to deploy assets to counter this strike force of JH-7AII, thining its forces in other sectors as pointed out by @MastanKhan.



The enemy flank is tactically the most vulnerable area. You can reach in from over the sea from so many different points use your standoff weapons and be gone.
Our farthest runways on the coast are far away from the enemy radars. Even their awacs would have a hard time seeing when our aircraft took off.
Missiles like the cm400akg can be launched from 250 miles away on the ground targets from over the ocean.

The panic that strike would set in mumbai would be worth the effort.



The Accountant said:


> Guys i dont know why we behave naive. There is no 2 question about utility of a dedicated navy strike fighter but what is more necessary offence or defence ? PN prime asset even as off today are F22P ... those ships cant even defend themselves properly and we are talking about attack aircrafts.
> 
> We have taken first right step for naval defense in the form of proxurement of submarines type 54 and milgem along with deployment of herba. Completion of these weapon systems will take a decade after which we might have funds for dedicated naval attack fighters...



Hi

JH7 can be had for almost no cost right now and just turn the tables on the enemy.
The enemy frigates close to gwadar would be turning tail right away.
No ship captain wants to see an aircraft capable of launch supersonic 2 ashm’s at it.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> The enemy flank is tactically the most vulnerable area. You can reach in from over the sea from so many different points use your standoff weapons and be gone.
> Our farthest runways on the coast are far away from the enemy radars. Even their awacs would have a hard time seeing when our aircraft took off.
> Missiles like the cm400akg can be launched from 250 miles away on the ground targets from over the ocean.
> 
> The panic that strike would set in mumbai would be worth the effort.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> JH7 can be had fir almost no cost right now and just turn the tables on the enemy.
> The enemy frigates close to gwadar would be turning tail right away.
> No ship captain wants to see an aircraft capable of launch supersonic 2 ashm’s at it.



Even thunder can launch cm400 akg... even a squadron of jf7 with all the integration training and weapon system will not be less than 600 to 700 million dollars. Kindly do note that a squadron is nothing .. for a little longer war you can run just one sortie per aircraft per day at max. And by that much sortie how much area could have been covered? While i agree that a dedicated heavy aircraft will change the attack dynamics but right now oñ the priority table defence of EEZ and protection of sea line of communication was far more important... now with the given projects of milgem type 54, herbah, f22P upgradation, 8 AIP submarines and upgrdaed Agusta PN suerly need the final peice of the puzzle i.e. a tool of heavy strike ... but i think it will take atleast half a decade to start anoth naval procurement ...


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> The enemy flank is tactically the most vulnerable area. You can reach in from over the sea from so many different points use your standoff weapons and be gone.
> Our farthest runways on the coast are far away from the enemy radars. Even their awacs would have a hard time seeing when our aircraft took off.
> Missiles like the cm400akg can be launched from 250 miles away on the ground targets from over the ocean.
> 
> The panic that strike would set in mumbai would be worth the effort.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> JH7 can be had fir almost no cost right now and just turn the tables on the enemy.
> The enemy frigates close to gwadar would be turning tail right away.
> No ship captain wants to see an aircraft capable of launch supersonic 2 ashm’s at it.


They believe in the conjectures as per the _KITAP_!! Bombay is the key word here!!! Top Hindutuva minds, along with their financiers, live in that Maratha area!!! Don’t wait for them to reach Panipat!!! When they feel insecure inside their own fortified homes they’ll crumble down!!! A couple of bomb blasts at the Bombay Stock Exchange was enough to put a mass scale genocide of the Indian Muslims - even a shame for the BD Muslims!!!! And, put Gujrat in the equation too!! You have now the recipe to cause the “Perfect Storm” inside their minds, which is darker than the bottom of the dark ocean at a dark night covered by the dark clouds....

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> @MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) Thats a 16-19t giant from spratley islands, underpowered by series-9 engines & before by r-r twin spey. The last one i saw had no better terrain hugging capability then what we had. These radar-discreate creatures would be difficult to defend against susraeli A2A weapons. Its carriage capacity of YJ12 & ELiNT is a credit - useful feature. Before BOTS look to see what capacity enhancement it can bring versus what we have versus short and longterm line maintenance costs.


Told the supposed aviation genius this some 5 years ago when the repeated rants on the JH-7 began. 

Its a 60’s design and thoroughly unsuited to our needs.

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> i agree, without any disrespect, dont want to go into M2000 discussion.


Aircraft in the story were F-7PG and Rafale, not Mirage 2000s


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## MastanKhan

aliyusuf said:


> @GriffinsRule
> 
> You cannot assume comparative RCS just by looking at the size of an object.
> 
> F-





The Accountant said:


> Even thunder can launch cm400 akg... even a squadron of jf7 with all the integration training and weapon system will not be less than 600 to 700 million dollars. Kindly do note that a squadron is nothing .. for a little longer war you can run just one sortie per aircraft per day at max. And by that much sortie how much area could have been covered? While i agree that a dedicated heavy aircraft will change the attack dynamics but right now oñ the priority table defence of EEZ and protection of sea line of communication was far more important... now with the given projects of milgem type 54, herbah, f22P upgradation, 8 AIP submarines and upgrdaed Agusta PN suerly need the final peice of the puzzle i.e. a tool of heavy strike ... but i think it will take atleast half a decade to start anoth naval procurement ...



Hi,

Off course thunder can launch the CM400---no doubt about it---but the issue is different---.

To get within the launch range would be very difficult---once you get in there---then you need a higher percentage of launch---.

What if your target is locked---you push the button and that one missile does not launch---.

What if you launch one missile and that one missile gets intercepted---for that reason---you need a 2 missile carrier---that increases your chance of strike---.

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## MystryMan

The Accountant said:


> Even thunder can launch cm400 akg... even a squadron of jf7 with all the integration training and weapon system will not be less than 600 to 700 million dollars. Kindly do note that a squadron is nothing .. for a little longer war you can run just one sortie per aircraft per day at max. And by that much sortie how much area could have been covered? While i agree that a dedicated heavy aircraft will change the attack dynamics but right now oñ the priority table defence of EEZ and protection of sea line of communication was far more important... now with the given projects of milgem type 54, herbah, f22P upgradation, 8 AIP submarines and upgrdaed Agusta PN suerly need the final peice of the puzzle i.e. a tool of heavy strike ... but i think it will take atleast half a decade to start anoth naval procurement ...





Oscar said:


> Told the supposed aviation genius this some 5 years ago when the repeated rants on the JH-7 began.
> 
> Its a 60’s design and thoroughly unsuited to our needs.


Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense. 

The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Told the supposed aviation genius this some 5 years ago when the repeated rants on the JH-7 began.
> 
> Its a 60’s design and thoroughly unsuited to our needs.



Talk about your vision---you only found out that the Paf offiers were corrupt when a near and dear one close to you supposedly admitted---that is how blind you were---and that was possibly when you were in your 30's maybe---and you claim experties---.



MystryMan said:


> Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.
> 
> The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.



Hi,

Look at america---it has turned a 50's technology---the B52 into a modern strike wonder---it has built a 60's technology the C130 into a GUNSHIP that no one else has---.

You want to find your true enemies---they are amongst you---right in front of your faces---.

A few years ago---these same enemies convinced you not to send military to the GCC---amazing how they sabotage pakistan---and how you all fall for it---.

Paf for its strike role is dependent on 60's technology M3 /%'s---and your enemies within don't even want to notice that---.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MystryMan said:


> Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.
> 
> The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.


Yea but the PAF has the Mirage 3/5 already. It's a 60s design that's fully integrated into the ops, training, logistics, and maintenance. Perhaps one option is to find an external contractor willing to rebuild the Mirage 3/5s and, in turn, tailor them into dedicated SOW assets.

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## GriffinsRule

He keeps giving B-52 as an example. Its like comparing watermelon to an apple. Conveniently forgets about other aircraft that USAF has seemingly retired and for good reason. F-111 for example would be a jet more or less in line with the mission similar to JH-7, except better in every regard. Americans did not keep that jet in service even though it was a highly effective all-weather interdiction aircraft with stellar safety record and on the forefront in its EW grab as well. 
Despite being a great platform, its role as a strike aircraft was taken up by a better all-round jet, the F-15E. Yet here we have people asking the PAF to go backwards in inducting a one trick pony that even its manufacturers are getting rid of, just for some seemingly short-term advantage that it wouldn't really provide in actuality. Here I would also add that even if bought tomorrow, the aircraft won't be fully operational for another 18-24 months at least. So if war is "around the corner", working with what you have first is the best option. Utilizing weapons in an innovative way to surprise the enemy is probably more effective than buying a platform for a very specific mission that will be expected and countered easily.

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## TsAr

@The Eagle @mods why are we even discussing JH-7 in mirage thread when we have a dedicated thread for JH-7 already there?

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## MastanKhan

TsAr said:


> @The Eagle @mods why are we even discussing JH-7 in mirage thread when we have a dedicated thread for JH-7 already there?



Hi,

What difference does it make to you in the first place.

You have only posted 3.5 posts per month since inception---. So what is your issue---if you may clarify---???


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## Pakistani Fighter

Oscar said:


> Told the supposed aviation genius this some 5 years ago when the repeated rants on the JH-7 began.
> 
> Its a 60’s design and thoroughly unsuited to our needs.


What about J 10C. Is it suited to us?


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## The Eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What difference does it make to you in the first place.
> 
> You have only posted 3.5 posts per month since inception---. So what is your issue---if you may clarify---???



The issue may remain due to our interest to read on particular subject irrespective of post count. 

Regards,

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## MastanKhan

The Eagle said:


> The issue may remain due to our interest to read on particular subject irrespective of post count.
> 
> Regards,




Since when do those people have become important who have never participated on the forum---?



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What about J 10C. Is it suited to us?



Hi,

Mirage F1 was not suitable---Mirage 2000 was not suitable---Rafale was not suitable---JH7A was not suitable---J10C is not suitable---timely purchase of F16 after 9/11 was not suitable either.

Now---can you understand how a nation's defense needs can be sabotaged from the inside---.

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## The Accountant

MystryMan said:


> Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.
> 
> The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.


There is a hell of s difference ... mirrages are 50 years but are being retired. They are long obsolete and are being kept ooerative by canabilizing the previous one.

Do you know time and cost of inducting a new aircraft? 

It will cost atleast 500 million dollars just to integrate and test and atleast 5 years to train and induct.

Is it worth while on an obsolete design? 

It is not comparable to mirrages which we are ooerating since decades



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Off course thunder can launch the CM400---no doubt about it---but the issue is different---.
> 
> To get within the launch range would be very difficult---once you get in there---then you need a higher percentage of launch---.
> 
> What if your target is locked---you push the button and that one missile does not launch---.
> 
> What if you launch one missile and that one missile gets intercepted---for that reason---you need a 2 missile carrier---that increases your chance of strike---.


Again i say there is no dispute about need of a heavy strike naval fighter. The question is about priority. Our naval assets were not even capable of defending themselves. We need to recognize the fact that a strike aircraft cant replace a frigate as frigate keep on defending the area 25/7 whereas aircraft is there for a few minutes only and having this weakness our enemy could have destroyed our naval weapon system within hours. Thanks to recent efforts we will have a decent fleet by 2025 capable of defending sea line of communication. 

Now in the air, priority is air defence in which we are outnumbered and soon to become out gunned too with arrival of rafael and meteor. 

Now i think next priority will be our air superriority fighter either by upgrading f16s or by having a squadron or 2 of some other highly advanced fighter.

Only after setting this we can move towards getting a heavy strike naval fighter. Its more buying the food for survival first and getting supplements to be strong next.

However i think we should improvise by aquiring 5th generation tech and introduce a net centric war concept where our naval servillance assets such as p3c orion, tankers and other fleet could be equipped with long range land attack and antiship missiles that can be targetted using coordinates from attack aircrafts such as thunder mirrages and f16s...

This can be the most cost effective solution. We can have an impact of bomb truck with the agility of a fighter and this will have multiploer effect as well ...

The need is to get out of the box solutions as we can't beat india in tech and weaponary as they have 5 times higher budgets..

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## MystryMan

The Accountant said:


> There is a hell of s difference ... mirrages are 50 years but are being retired. They are long obsolete and are being kept ooerative by canabilizing the previous one.
> 
> Do you know time and cost of inducting a new aircraft?
> 
> It will cost atleast 500 million dollars just to integrate and test and atleast 5 years to train and induct.
> 
> Is it worth while on an obsolete design?
> 
> It is not comparable to mirrages which we are ooerating since decades
> 
> 
> Again i say there is no dispute about need of a heavy strike naval fighter. The question is about priority. Our naval assets were not even capable of defending themselves. We need to recognize the fact that a strike aircraft cant replace a frigate as frigate keep on defending the area 25/7 whereas aircraft is there for a few minutes only and having this weakness our enemy could have destroyed our naval weapon system within hours. Thanks to recent efforts we will have a decent fleet by 2025 capable of defending sea line of communication.
> 
> Now in the air, priority is air defence in which we are outnumbered and soon to become out gunned too with arrival of rafael and meteor.
> 
> Now i think next priority will be our air superriority fighter either by upgrading f16s or by having a squadron or 2 of some other highly advanced fighter.
> 
> Only after setting this we can move towards getting a heavy strike naval fighter. Its more buying the food for survival first and getting supplements to be strong next.
> 
> However i think we should improvise by aquiring 5th generation tech and introduce a net centric war concept where our naval servillance assets such as p3c orion, tankers and other fleet could be equipped with long range land attack and antiship missiles that can be targetted using coordinates from attack aircrafts such as thunder mirrages and f16s...
> 
> This can be the most cost effective solution. We can have an impact of bomb truck with the agility of a fighter and this will have multiploer effect as well ...
> 
> The need is to get out of the box solutions as we can't beat india in tech and weaponary as they have 5 times higher budgets..


I'm no expert thats why I said J-10 or JH-7 because we also need numbers. Air force is the most important component in modern warfare, u can have best army or Navy but it needs air cover to fight.

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> There is a hell of s difference ... mirrages are 50 years but are being retired. They are long obsolete and are being kept ooerative by canabilizing the previous one.
> 
> Do you know time and cost of inducting a new aircraft?
> 
> It will cost atleast 500 million dollars just to integrate and test and atleast 5 years to train and induct.
> 
> Is it worth while on an obsolete design?
> 
> It is not comparable to mirrages which we are ooerating since decade



Hi,

It won't take long---the aircraft is already integrated---. It already has an operational manual---. We use same weapons from the same manufacturer under similar terms and conditions---.

As it is a strike aircraft---it won't take long to integrate---. Within 6 months you have a very well functioning unit and within a year a well oiled machine---.

We need an aircraft than can carry 2 heavy AShM's---a 5th gen can't do that---.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It won't take long---the aircraft is already integrated---. It already has an operational manual---. We use same weapons from the same manufacturer under similar terms and conditions---.
> 
> As it is a strike aircraft---it won't take long to integrate---. Within 6 months you have a very well functioning unit and within a year a well oiled machine---.
> 
> We need an aircraft than can carry 2 heavy AShM's---a 5th gen can't do that---.


Here I would humbly disagree. I dont consider an aircraft upgraded unless it is integrated to command and control infrastructure along with link 17 and jh7a having radar and avionics different therefore it will take significant time and only after that trainnig will begin. By looking at the past history i think just the contract negotiation and delivery will take atleast a year even if we start on fast track basis today.

Plus I feel today priority is upgradation of air superiroity fighter. F16s cant compete meteor and rafael combo and they are coming this year and will take max 2 years to get fully capable deployment.

If I had money and decision making power I will go for Viper (block 70) or Typhoon to counter Rafael otherwise PAF will be on same status as we were during kargil war i.e. retreat

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## Basel

GriffinsRule said:


> USAF B52s fly as they have air superiority/dominance, which PAF will not have in an Indo-Pak war.
> 
> The problem is with the JH-7A, not in its availability. And your scenario is so simple, it is not even worth mentioning in the context of justifying PAF/PN buying it. It will be easily detected at very long ranges over the ocean by IAF early warning radars and AEW aircraft and duly intercepted by their Su-30s and Rafales. Even if it turns back in time to avoid being shot down, it will be a failed mission anyways.
> 
> PS, I was surprised to read your comments on how cheap this aircraft is to procure even if we lose them easily in war, while completely ignoring how much more expensive those two pilots riding in thing would be. We all should also know that flyaway costs are only a small portion of what it would mean to induct, maintain and fly this junk for another 30 years. Basically a glorified enlarged Mig-21 with terrible build quality.
> 
> Also, where and when did the PAF or anyone ever state that Rafale was not worth it? I am curious. Similarly, how can you even imply the same comments were made of the F-7PG when PAF was the first importer of the type and was really excited by its performance from the get go when trialed in China?
> 
> You still need a competent person behind the machine to fully utilize it. Technology, while has made some tasks easier and workload less (when concerning basic flying, situational awareness etc) has not made flying easier and pilots nowadays have to work with loads of new data and threats as well as complex scenarios and similarly advanced threats to contend with. So the man behind the machine absolutely matters.



Problem at PDF is that non professional people think they know note then professional working in our military, I had discussed JH-7A with PAF and PN people and both said its an obsolete aircraft even with latest upgrade, they have thoroughly tested it.



aliyusuf said:


> Intriguing point you have raised. Do you know what the RCS of a JH-7A is btw or you are just making a generalization based on size? Is it's RCS more than an Su-30MKI?



Kindly tell me how much runway it will need with full load and what RCS will it have??

Please enlighten us.



aliyusuf said:


> These are pretty good at low level flight. That is a help. It's lower level ride performance is much better than our Mirages. Especially for the naval scenario, these would be a great added punch against enemy fleet. The JH-7AII will also be sporting a good ELINT/EW suite.
> 
> These need not stay too long inside enemy air space. But they could launch SOWs from further inside enemy territory than our Mirages (which are not optimized for low level flight).



If Chinese EW is that good then why JFT have Western EW system??

China is not on par with west now in EW system and our enemy have money and access to have western EW system.



The Accountant said:


> Even thunder can launch cm400 akg... even a squadron of jf7 with all the integration training and weapon system will not be less than 600 to 700 million dollars. Kindly do note that a squadron is nothing .. for a little longer war you can run just one sortie per aircraft per day at max. And by that much sortie how much area could have been covered? While i agree that a dedicated heavy aircraft will change the attack dynamics but right now oñ the priority table defence of EEZ and protection of sea line of communication was far more important... now with the given projects of milgem type 54, herbah, f22P upgradation, 8 AIP submarines and upgrdaed Agusta PN suerly need the final peice of the puzzle i.e. a tool of heavy strike ... but i think it will take atleast half a decade to start anoth naval procurement ...



If Pakistan had money then PAF may have gone for Su-30/35 for PN support role. J-11 was preferred over JH-7.



MystryMan said:


> Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.
> 
> The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.



J-10C is much better option over JH-7 version.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yea but the PAF has the Mirage 3/5 already. It's a 60s design that's fully integrated into the ops, training, logistics, and maintenance. Perhaps one option is to find an external contractor willing to rebuild the Mirage 3/5s and, in turn, tailor them into dedicated SOW assets.



It can be done with SA help, a M-3/5 block-60 can be made if required and there is will just like Israeli Kfirs.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/kfir-jet/

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It won't take long---the aircraft is already integrated---. It already has an operational manual---. We use same weapons from the same manufacturer under similar terms and conditions---.
> 
> As it is a strike aircraft---it won't take long to integrate---. Within 6 months you have a very well functioning unit and within a year a well oiled machine---.
> 
> We need an aircraft than can carry 2 heavy AShM's---a 5th gen can't do that---.


F35 does..i assume others will as well


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## aliyusuf

Basel said:


> Kindly tell me how much runway it will need with full load and what RCS will it have??


Frankly I don't know how much runway will be needed and neither did I claim that I did. But If it is important to the discussion I could look it up and see if there is anything out there on the web. As for RCS, nobody knows and that is the point I made on @GriffinsRule 's post i.e. one should not assume RCS just on size.



Basel said:


> If Chinese EW is that good then why JFT have Western EW system??
> 
> China is not on par with west now in EW system and our enemy have money and access to have western EW system.


You may be right on this one. But does the Indra EW suite being so good mean that the Chinese one has to be bad? Cannot one be less as good but still be good enough to get the job done? Are we certain that it is not an issue of miniaturization and weight also? That would impact JH-7AII less than and be less of an issue than for the Thunder.


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## MystryMan

The Accountant said:


> Here I would humbly disagree. I dont consider an aircraft upgraded unless it is integrated to command and control infrastructure along with link 17 and jh7a having radar and avionics different therefore it will take significant time and only after that trainnig will begin. By looking at the past history i think just the contract negotiation and delivery will take atleast a year even if we start on fast track basis today.
> 
> Plus I feel today priority is upgradation of air superiroity fighter. F16s cant compete meteor and rafael combo and they are coming this year and will take max 2 years to get fully capable deployment.
> 
> If I had money and decision making power I will go for Viper (block 70) or Typhoon to counter Rafael otherwise PAF will be on same status as we were during kargil war i.e. retreat


When the hostilities begin, you won't get any hardware from west/US. So China/Turkey will be our only option.

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## The Accountant

MystryMan said:


> When the hostilities begin, you won't get any hardware from west/US. So China/Turkey will be our only option.


Even in that case JH7A dont fill the bill. J10A cant face rafael. So your logic is still flawed


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## MystryMan

The Accountant said:


> Even in that case JH7A dont fill the bill. J10A cant face rafael. So your logic is still flawed


so what do u propose? which sanction free fighter jet we can get (due to looming war scenario)?


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## Basel

aliyusuf said:


> Frankly I don't know how much runway will be needed and neither did I claim that I did. But If it is important to the discussion I could look it up and see if there is anything out there on the web. As for RCS, nobody knows and that is the point I made on @GriffinsRule 's post i.e. one should not assume RCS just on size.
> 
> 
> You may be right on this one. But does the Indra EW suite being so good mean that the Chinese one has to be bad? Cannot one be less as good but still be good enough to get the job done? Are we certain that it is not an issue of miniaturization and weight also? That would impact JH-7AII less than and be less of an issue than for the Thunder.



JH-7 is thoroughly tested by both PAF & PN and they prefer to keep Mirages over it till better option is available as J-11 was not available which PN and PAF wanted to replace Mirages with maritime role.

Until and unless some big changes comes in new JH-7 model on par with latest J1x series PN and PAF will not consider it, it will be sitting duck against Indian air defences.

Indra is good and Italy is offering latest stuff and they also ready to provide very advance hard points inbuilt EW system allowing JFT to carry same weapons capacity with very robust EW capabilities which will give it capability to challenge enemy air defences even without any support asset that currently China can not provide.

If PAF had money they would have gone for best EW suit and radar from west for JFT, we might have end up with Raven-05 class AESA with MICA-IR/ASRAAM/IRIS-T with Meteor/MICA type configuration.

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## The Accountant

MystryMan said:


> so what do u propose? which sanction free fighter jet we can get (due to looming war scenario)?


For short term upgaradation of F16s, JF17 blk3 and J31 are the only options but if we can delay it to medium term than project azam is supposed to gift a reliable fighter.

There is no need to purchase to fill the numbers only


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## araz

Oscar said:


> Told the supposed aviation genius this some 5 years ago when the repeated rants on the JH-7 began.
> 
> Its a 60’s design and thoroughly unsuited to our needs.


I rest my case.
A


The Accountant said:


> For short term upgaradation of F16s, JF17 blk3 and J31 are the only options but if we can delay it to medium term than project azam is supposed to gift a reliable fighter.
> 
> There is no need to purchase to fill the numbers only


On your list J31 is no where in operational sight. It could take another 5 years before it is ready. I agree there is a need for a twin engined fighter but finances remain an issue. Integration and setup and in house stores management are expensive parts of aircraft acquisition, not to mention pilot training and learning tactics on the AC. Which is why PAF is still keen on the sweet 16s in any iteration, new or old. The only other possibility is the J series 3 squadrons for naval role, the complexities of acquisition apart.
A


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## TsAr

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What difference does it make to you in the first place.
> 
> You have only posted 3.5 posts per month since inception---. So what is your issue---if you may clarify---???


Ignored...


----------



## The Accountant

araz said:


> I rest my case.
> A
> 
> On your list J31 is no where in operational sight. It could take another 5 years before it is ready. I agree there is a need for a twin engined fighter but finances remain an issue. Integration and setup and in house stores management are expensive parts of aircraft acquisition, not to mention pilot training and learning tactics on the AC. Which is why PAF is still keen on the sweet 16s in any iteration, new or old. The only other possibility is the J series 3 squadrons for naval role, the complexities of acquisition apart.
> A


J series are not yet available. Russia has not yet allowed to sell J series otherwise those are decent aircraft.

I agree that J31 is atleast 5 years away but this is the only viable solution against Rafael if we don't get Viper upgraded.


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## araz

The Accountant said:


> J series are not yet available. Russia has not yet allowed to sell J series otherwise those are decent aircraft.
> 
> I agree that J31 is atleast 5 years away but this is the only viable solution against Rafael if we don't get Viper upgraded.


You have a lot of merit in what you say. With the WS10 qualified ro run on Jseries Russian leverage is lessened to a great degree. I do agree that if J31 becomes available in the next 5 to 7 years it would be an ideal answer to the madness next door. Otherwise JFT with PL15and if the US releases AIM 120D would have to do.
A

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## SQ8

MystryMan said:


> Sir, we are also using M3/M5 from the same era. JH-7A is being discussed bcz China is offering to sell it by refurbishing to JH-7AII config (updated Radar,Electronics etc). We can use them for deep/maritime strike (if we can get them at a bargain price) and use M5 for our fleet/coastal defense.
> 
> The war is just around the corner and we need to increase the PAF strength. our only option seems to be J-10C or JH-7AII.


Our usage of the Mirages is borne out of economics, adaptability and experience with the platform. None of which apply to the JH-7. Give the PAF $15 billion and see the mirages go away in five years. 

You don’t replace an old car you are used to with another “new” old car that you know nothing about unless you are an antiques collector- or an antique yourself.

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## jupiter2007

Can J-16 have Chinese engine & Radar and avionics from Turkey and Italy? If yes, we can bypass Russia.


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## MastanKhan

Basel said:


> Problem at PDF is that non professional people think they know note then professional working in our military, I had discussed JH-7A with PAF and PN people and both said its an obsolete aircraft even with latest upgrade, they have thoroughly tested it.
> Kindly tell me how much runway it will need with full load and what RCS will it have??



Hi,

Your discussing it means nothing---. You have no tactical background and understanding of the systems---. And many of those on the other side are not the brightest either---.

There is something called---need---utility---necessity---.

The need & utility supercedes everything else---with necessity and need running close by in parallel.

For a low skimmer over the waves---rcs is the least of the concerns---. And just because the aircraft can be loaded to 9000 KG does not mean that would be the operational requirement for the naval strike missions or precision strike missions---.

The J11 is running around 60 million a piece---. The current JH7A's can be had for maybe between 1 million to 5 million dollars---.

You can have 2 sqdrns of JH7A's for the price of 2 J11's and for the price of 3 1/2 J11's you can get spare engines and other spare parts as well---at max.

A nation that drives and lives by a SUZUKI MEHRAN or a 75cc Honda motorcycle---that nation cannot claim to pick and chose---.

This is the same air force that picked the A5 Fantan---the worst of the worst---. Why---because of its 175 miles flt radius---can't put itself in real harms way---.

Why the air force rejects the JH7A---. The Paf has claimed that it is a defensive air force---with the JH7A it will have to fly farther---see---with the A5's or the mirage 3 / 5 they can stay close by and don't risk themselves---.

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## mikaal

Oscar said:


> Our usage of the Mirages is borne out of economics, adaptability and experience with the platform. None of which apply to the JH-7. Give the PAF $15 billion and see the mirages go away in five years.
> 
> You don’t replace an old car you are used to with another “new” old car that you know nothing about unless you are an antiques collector- or an antique yourself.




every one says the same thing here about issues with finances problem is the armed forces should not have spent money on changing uniforms 1st they should have got better equipment ..wars are won by providing the right equipment at the right time ... now crying like a little girl about money issues wont change anything ...and in order to buy something which will make your country defense more stronger the you need loyal people not MR GENERAL the commission agent .....

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## SQ8

mikaal said:


> every one says the same thing here about issues with finances problem is the armed forces should not have spent money on changing uniforms 1st they should have got better equipment ..wars are won by providing the right equipment at the right time ... now crying like a little girl about money issues wont change anything ...and in order to buy something which will make your country defense more stronger the you need loyal people not MR GENERAL the commission agent .....


Yes


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## mshan44



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## mikaal

Oscar said:


> Yes


we could have got the Dassault Rafale from France long time ago but no we didn't because it was not soo called battle proven ...more like the commission was not enough for someone in the armed forces ...the thing which surprises me is a lot of current and retired armed forces people on this forum know a lot of corrupt people in the armed forces but wont name and shame them with pictures .... question is why tho are they not loyal to PAKISTAN ...if we can call out politicians corrupt why not the people in armed forces as well ...

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## SQ8

mikaal said:


> we could have got the Dassault Rafale from France long time ago but no we didn't because it was not soo called battle proven ...more like the commission was not enough for someone in the armed forces ...the thing which surprises me is a lot of current and retired armed forces people on this forum know a lot of corrupt people in the armed forces but wont name and shame them with pictures .... question is why tho are they not loyal to PAKISTAN ...if we can call out politicians corrupt why not the people in armed forces as well ...


We couldn’t afford the Rafale. Breathe and calm down.

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## mikaal

Oscar said:


> We couldn’t afford the Rafale. Breathe and calm do
> like always we cant afford anything but can afford to build new HQ IN ISLAMABAD


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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Onboard indian MKI.
> 
> 
> @Tps43
> 
> 
> No more smart - getting upto 60.



Hi,

When the aircraft takes off from pasni or if there becomes a runway available at gwadar---itis not visible to the enemy radar---. The enemy awacs are flying way over yonder---close to their coastline---






You fly down keeping 450-500 miles away from the enemy coastline---angle in towards mumbai and depending what you are carring---2 Babur cruise missile or 2 CM400 akg---you let go from 250 miles to 400 miles away---make a turn and dash away---.

To smash the enemy's psyche---you will have to find a way to strike mumbai---.
The paf brags about taking on the israeli air force---this strike is taking on the israeli air force---. They hit Dimona---you hit mumbai---. Then we can say---indeed Paf knows what it is doing---.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> We couldn’t afford the Rafale. Breathe and calm down.


I think we've both seen weird conceit from the PAF, but this idea that they'd walk away from a good fighter when the money's available is strange. Folks are underestimating the massive economic hit Pakistan took with the earthquake, Zardari, peak COIN/CT, and loss of US aid -- all in rapid succession circa 2004-2014.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think we've both seen weird conceit from the PAF, but this idea that they'd walk away from a good fighter when the money's available is strange. Folks are underestimating the massive economic hit Pakistan took with the earthquake, Zardari, peak COIN/CT, and loss of US aid -- all in rapid succession circa 2004-2014.



Hi,

Other than the earthquake---all were the doings of the pakistanis---.

Paf had ample time to get the aircraft after 9/11---and between the earthquake---.

When all the dots are connected from the mid 80's to now---it only leads to one thing---Paf's hierarchy did its best to sabotage the purchase of a potent fighter aircraft in a timely manner---.

Their is no other nation in modern or old history---that can give an example of internal sabotage by a wing of its own forces to procure the most needed weapon---.

COIN problems and US aid are pakistanis own doings---. What is it---14 years---that is how long it took to the pakistanis to realize that the terrorists were not their islamic brothers---.

As for US aid---it is the fck up of the pakistan's military---for not understanding what the american had done 48-72 hours into the fight against Al qaeda and changed it to liberation of AFG---and of the illiterate pakistani public---who to this day has no clue what transpired---.

Pakistanis need to stop blaming USA---this deceit---this problem---this mega crisis---this turn of events---this failure of their policy---these COIN operations---this shut down of US funds---is of pakistan's own making---.



mikaal said:


> we could have got the Dassault Rafale from France long time ago but no we didn't because it was not soo called battle proven ...more like the commission was not enough for someone in the armed forces ...the thing which surprises me is a lot of current and retired armed forces people on this forum know a lot of corrupt people in the armed forces but wont name and shame them with pictures .... question is why tho are they not loyal to PAKISTAN ...if we can call out politicians corrupt why not the people in armed forces as well ...



Hi,

They won't name them because they are still buddies with them---and what is pakistan to them---. Most supposed " honest " people are already settled in US UK canada etc---.

Loyalty to pakistan---what loyalty---PAF hierarchy and loyalty to pakistan---. Paf hierachy is only loyal to itself---.

Pakistan is just a conduit that fulfils their needs and desires---.

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## Avicenna

It's a given that the airframe life is limited on the existing Mirages in service, despite the avionics and weapons upgrades.

I'm guessing the aircraft get about 150 hours a year?

So how many years of service are theoretically left?

Not many I would assume.

Although the ex-Libyan, etc. examples were probably low airframe hours.

Still I would assume maybe another decade of use at max?

Of course the ROSE are the last ones to go.


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## ziaulislam

Avicenna said:


> It's a given that the airframe life is limited on the existing Mirages in service, despite the avionics and weapons upgrades.
> 
> I'm guessing the aircraft get about 150 hours a year?
> 
> So how many years of service are theoretically left?
> 
> Not many I would assume.
> 
> Although the ex-Libyan, etc. examples were probably low airframe hours.
> 
> Still I would assume maybe another decade of use at max?
> 
> Of course the ROSE are the last ones to go.


they are rebuilt using parts from better mirages..we gathered more than 150..so i am pretty sure that they will last till 2030

seems PAF will get the PGs out first my guess by 2025

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think we've both seen weird conceit from the PAF, but this idea that they'd walk away from a good fighter when the money's available is strange. Folks are underestimating the massive economic hit Pakistan took with the earthquake, Zardari, peak COIN/CT, and loss of US aid -- all in rapid succession circa 2004-2014.



Hi,

I think that you young pakistanis have some misconception---and I believe it goes to the older ones as well---.

Do you know what a good rifle is---? It is the rifle that you can get---.

Do you know what a good fighter aircraft is---it is the one you can get---.

Do you know what a good strike aircraft is---it is the one you can get---.

You know what a good antibiotic is for a 2 years old baby daughter dying of pneumonia---it is the one you can get---.

Do you know what a good cancer medicine for a mother's breast cancer is---it is not the one sitting somewhere that you cannot get but the one that is available to you---.

The tragedy over here is---that as a nation---no one has ever taught you people about that concept---and why you people have not been taught that way---because you have illiterate people ruling your lives---.

There comes a time in the life of everyone---why are we chasing RAINBOWS when there are none to be had---.

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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> JH-7 is thoroughly tested by both PAF & PN and they prefer to keep Mirages over it till better option is available as J-11 was not available which PN and PAF wanted to replace Mirages with maritime role.
> 
> Until and unless some big changes comes in new JH-7 model on par with latest J1x series PN and PAF will not consider it, it will be sitting duck against Indian air defences.
> 
> Indra is good and Italy is offering latest stuff and they also ready to provide very advance hard points inbuilt EW system allowing JFT to carry same weapons capacity with very robust EW capabilities which will give it capability to challenge enemy air defences even without any support asset that currently China can not provide.
> 
> If PAF had money they would have gone for best EW suit and radar from west for JFT, we might have end up with Raven-05 class AESA with MICA-IR/ASRAAM/IRIS-T with Meteor/MICA type configuration.


in other words PAF doesnt has money for thunders let alone a new fighter..


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> in other words PAF doesnt has money for thunders let alone a new fighter..




Sir,

It is high time that you admitted that the Paf blew away the money for the fighter aircraft when it had it---.

How long are you going to protect them for their misdeeds---? 

They have sabotaged the integrity of the defense of pakistan---.

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## MastanKhan

mikaal said:


> every one says the same thing here about issues with finances problem is the armed forces should not have spent money on changing uniforms 1st they should have got better equipment ..wars are won by providing the right equipment at the right time ... now crying like a little girl about money issues wont change anything ...and in order to buy something which will make your country defense more stronger the you need loyal people not MR GENERAL the commission agent .....



Hi,

In the last 30 years---there hardly was issue with funds for fighter aircraft at any time---maybe for a very short period---but the resource to buy them was always available---.

Anyone who continuosly states that and it is their mantra---is the enemy of the state of pakistani---I would call them a LIAR. And this has come from one of the highest authorities multiple times few years ago---.

The issue is the Paf MAFIA ---the Paf generals---or as they say air marshalls---.


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## MystryMan

The Accountant said:


> Even in that case JH7A dont fill the bill. J10A cant face rafael. So your logic is still flawed


what about J-10C?


----------



## Basel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your discussing it means nothing---. You have no tactical background and understanding of the systems---. And many of those on the other side are not the brightest either---.
> 
> There is something called---need---utility---necessity---.
> 
> The need & utility supercedes everything else---with necessity and need running close by in parallel.
> 
> For a low skimmer over the waves---rcs is the least of the concerns---. And just because the aircraft can be loaded to 9000 KG does not mean that would be the operational requirement for the naval strike missions or precision strike missions---.
> 
> The J11 is running around 60 million a piece---. The current JH7A's can be had for maybe between 1 million to 5 million dollars---.
> 
> You can have 2 sqdrns of JH7A's for the price of 2 J11's and for the price of 3 1/2 J11's you can get spare engines and other spare parts as well---at max.
> 
> A nation that drives and lives by a SUZUKI MEHRAN or a 75cc Honda motorcycle---that nation cannot claim to pick and chose---.
> 
> This is the same air force that picked the A5 Fantan---the worst of the worst---. Why---because of its 175 miles flt radius---can't put itself in real harms way---.
> 
> Why the air force rejects the JH7A---. The Paf has claimed that it is a defensive air force---with the JH7A it will have to fly farther---see---with the A5's or the mirage 3 / 5 they can stay close by and don't risk themselves---.



Do you have any back ground in that field?? Kindly keep your BS to yourself, you have not worked or seen Pakistani MoD or military and you even don't know how things work and what mindset military have. Just living abroad and talking big don't make you an expert.

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## Tank131

What i dont get is that on one thread people are claiming F-16 blk 72 and V upgrades and in another people say no money for JF-17, JH-7A, or J-10. By the look, @MastanKhan is correct that there is too much fishiness from PAF when it comes to funds. Afterall, this is the same branch that wanted M2K for $100m/aircraft

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> in other words PAF doesnt has money for thunders let alone a new fighter..



Money is issue for big ticket items for sure but still they are managing well in limited resources.


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## MastanKhan

Basel said:


> Do you have any back ground in that field?? Kindly keep your BS to yourself, you have not worked or seen Pakistani MoD or military and you even don't know how things work and what mindset military have. Just living abroad and talking big don't make you an expert.



Hi,

With the result that I see---how their mind works---it is like an open book---. For you---they are the " mythical creatures "---for me---below ordinary---.

If living abroad was the decisive factor---there are quite a few posters over here who live abroad and do not know didley sh-it---.



Tank131 said:


> What i dont get is that on one thread people are claiming F-16 blk 72 and V upgrades and in another people say no money for JF-17, JH-7A, or J-10. By the look, @MastanKhan is correct that there is too much fishiness from PAF when it comes to funds. Afterall, this is the same branch that wanted M2K for $100m/aircraft



Hi,

As I had stated earlier---if you look at the 30 + years history of option to buy fighter aircraft---it either looks like an act of COMEDY---or an act of total incompetence---or absolute sabotage---.

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## ziaulislam

Tank131 said:


> What i dont get is that on one thread people are claiming F-16 blk 72 and V upgrades and in another people say no money for JF-17, JH-7A, or J-10. By the look, @MastanKhan is correct that there is too much fishiness from PAF when it comes to funds. Afterall, this is the same branch that wanted M2K for $100m/aircraft


that seems to be exaggerated claim..concept is that its theoretically possible that 9b pending in CSF might be diverted to US weapons as it will be win win for both instead of just releasing the money to Pakistan

put I am skeptical about that..

*otherwise we saw how PAF walked away from 8 f16 b52*

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## ice_man

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> With the result that I see---how their mind works---it is like an open book---. For you---they are the " mythical creatures "---for me---below ordinary---.
> 
> If living abroad was the decisive factor---there are quite a few posters over here who live abroad and do not know didley sh-it---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As I had stated earlier---if you look at the 30 + years history of option to buy fighter aircraft---it either looks like an act of COMEDY---or an act of total incompetence---or absolute sabotage---.




Dear Mastan,

You have been saying this for a decade now on this forum. That PAF high command has been sabotaging the purchase of new fighters. I agree with you they keep fiddling with no clear plan of what they wish to purchase and when. They are happy with what they see. rather than see that the world has moved on to F15s SU35s and F35s. 

However, the problem i feel is less with PAF high command or procurement section. The problem i believe solely lies with the Pakistan Army. 

The army consumes the major bulk of the budget whatever is left is given to PAF and lastly Pakistan Navy is left to scrap the bottom of the barrel. 

So unfortunately i feel the PAF has major budget constraints to procure any major weapons. No one clearly knows the defence budget of Pakistan breakdown as in which branch of the armed forces gets how much money to procure what they require. 

Window to procure something to replace Mirage IIIs and Vs is running out since a decade but it seems PAF is helpless.


----------



## messiach

Yes, can we not do it with current capability.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You fly down keeping 450-500 miles away from the enemy coastline---angle in towards mumbai and depending what you are carring---2 Babur cruise missile or 2 CM400 akg---you let go from 250 miles to 400 miles away---make a turn and dash away---.

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## PDF

Tank131 said:


> What i dont get is that on one thread people are claiming F-16 blk 72 and V upgrades and in another people say no money for JF-17, JH-7A, or J-10. By the look, @MastanKhan is correct that there is too much fishiness from PAF when it comes to funds. Afterall, this is the same branch that wanted M2K for $100m/aircraft


What can we say... It's complicated and complex.


----------



## mikaal

Oscar said:


> We couldn’t afford the Rafale. Breathe and calm down.


really is that what your ans to every thing is we didn't had money to buy them ...when all the branches of military and paramilitary forces were busy changing uniforms where did the money came from did someone left shit loads of bags outside the offices ....where did the money come from to build the new headquarters for all 3 branches of military in Islamabad ..... the dum arse top commands are happy to spend money on things which are actually not needed but wont spend the money on actual equipment ... you cant win wars with modern uniforms can you ?



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> With the result that I see---how their mind works---it is like an open book---. For you---they are the " mythical creatures "---for me---below ordinary---.
> 
> If living abroad was the decisive factor---there are quite a few posters over here who live abroad and do not know didley sh-it---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As I had stated earlier---if you look at the 30 + years history of option to buy fighter aircraft---it either looks like an act of COMEDY---or an act of total incompetence---or absolute sabotage---.


 
its not an act of comedy or incompetence its actually treason these people should be shot live on tv lol but we cant expect that ever in our life time as generals and air chiefs and top brass of armed forces are untouchables or lets say THE HIDDEN PUPPETS OF OUTSIDERS

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## Quwa

Tank131 said:


> What i dont get is that on one thread people are claiming F-16 blk 72 and V upgrades and in another people say no money for JF-17, JH-7A, or J-10. By the look, @MastanKhan is correct that there is too much fishiness from PAF when it comes to funds. Afterall, this is the same branch that wanted M2K for $100m/aircraft


Well, not everyone who's against JH-7 or J-10 believes the F-16 Block-72 will come.

Pakistan's macroeconomic picture is as clear as day, there are scarcely few dollars available. Full stop.

It's a mathematical constraint, we can't import a nice new jet unless we have $1bn+ in hard dollars available every year for 10+ years.

When we had a better economy (via the 1970s), this was doable. When we had aid to hide the gap (Mushy), doable (but things went downhill fast post 2004).

We're only now cutting the trade deficit, albeit with limited prospect of driving more exports to bring in foreign currency.

Our biggest mistake was not investing in developing critical tech like gas turbines or semiconductors at home (even if separately from defence). That could've given us a good base for exporting, attracting foreign investment, etc. To this day, we're still scoffing at it.

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## Code_Geass

Great analysis as always not biased like many others


Quwa said:


> Well, not everyone who's against JH-7 or J-10 believes the F-16 Block-72 will come. Pakistan's macroeconomic picture is as clear as day, there are scarcely few dollars available. Full stop.
> 
> It's a mathematical constraint, we can't import a nice new jet unless we have $1bn+ in hard dollars available every year for 10+ years.
> 
> When we had a better economy (via the 1970s), this was doable. When we had aid to hide the gap (Mushy), doable (but things went downhill fast post 2004).
> 
> The only now cutting the trade deficit, albeit with limited prospect of driving more exports to bring in foreign currency.
> 
> Our biggest mistake was not investing in developing critical tech like gas turbines or semiconductors at home (even if separately from defence). That could've given us a good base for exporting, attracting foreign investment, etc. To this day, we're still scoffing at it.


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## LKJ86

Quwa said:


> Our biggest mistake was not investing in developing critical tech like gas turbines or semiconductors at home (even if separately from defence). That could've given us a good base for exporting, attracting foreign investment, etc. To this day, we're still scoffing at it.


But how many other countries can do that?


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## GriffinsRule

LKJ86 said:


> But how many other countries can do that?


The 6th largest country by population should have done that


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## LKJ86

GriffinsRule said:


> The 6th largest country by population should have done that


What about India, Indonesia, and Brazil?

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Yes, can we not do it with current capability.



Hi,

Cant launch 2 heavy ALCM's---of the category 1000Kg +


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## messiach

Not convinced this is the case. @Quwa @Oscar 



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Cant launch 2 heavy ALCM's---of the category 1000Kg +

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## AsifIjaz

@Oscar @waz @Arsalan @Horus 

Is this a mirage thread or a thread where a geezer comes over to vent out his inhibitions, complexes or possibly kills his time. The filth, the poison or the highly questionable / baseless ideas are written without any relevant examples... But are put forth with a conjuring sway with words using weird examples and common phrases and as a result it has the potential to pollute the minds of dozens out there. 

The one who questions or refutes the ideas or figment of ones imagination are insulted openly, called names, made a mockery off and not challenged on the basis of intellect or with facts and figures. More so this has led to or leads to people with relevant background stay away from actively participating. An open discussion where anyone or everyone can ask questions or put forward a point of view without being belittled or insulted looks difficult with the above attitude. I have seen derailing of thread after thread after thread after thread and there is no atopping to it. 

If mockery of the forum rules is permissible then it should be universal and not limited to a selected few. Why give negative ratings or ban people. Dare i say that have we stood besides while people were allowed to run their mouth just so as to not offend them enough and as a result save our pride and respect?? 

If not so then I request to please either enforce the rules as its written in black and white or simply make this a free for all.

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## GriffinsRule

LKJ86 said:


> What about India, Indonesia, and Brazil?


All those countries have a more robust technology base and are ahead of us in most every key economic indicator


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Quwa said:


> Well, not everyone who's against JH-7 or J-10 believes the F-16 Block-72 will come.
> 
> Pakistan's macroeconomic picture is as clear as day, there are scarcely few dollars available. Full stop.
> 
> It's a mathematical constraint, we can't import a nice new jet unless we have $1bn+ in hard dollars available every year for 10+ years.
> 
> When we had a better economy (via the 1970s), this was doable. When we had aid to hide the gap (Mushy), doable (but things went downhill fast post 2004).
> 
> We're only now cutting the trade deficit, albeit with limited prospect of driving more exports to bring in foreign currency.
> 
> Our biggest mistake was not investing in developing critical tech like gas turbines or semiconductors at home (even if separately from defence). That could've given us a good base for exporting, attracting foreign investment, etc. To this day, we're still scoffing at it.


Not all is lost!!! Pak can leverage the Turkish proficiency with III-V devices (GaAs, GaN etc.) reaching almost the Bell Labs level!!! These are the building blocks to generate 02-27 class “surprises” spontaneously at wish!!!!


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## khanasifm



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> But how many other countries can do that?


Let's say it's as few as the number of countries with nuclear weapons. Let's even cut that in half. How would we Pakistanis know of our limits if we've artificially capped them via corruption, negligence, etc? Not only that, but besides the nuclear weapons program, we Pakistanis sat idle across all industrial development for 70+ years!!!

So, _*of course *_we'll have difficulties today. But there is _*no reason *_why we couldn't have had even 1/10 of the economic benefits India got through the 1990s and 2000s had we made the same kind of effort in technology, business development, education, etc. We keep laughing, that's all we do, even when we're failing.

In the last 5 years, I've seen us Pakistanis spend more energy criticizing what Turkey and South Africa apparently can't do (when they show-off progress) than, I don't know, show their own results. I'd wager that if you gave us Pakistanis oil or gas wealth, we'd look more like Nigeria or Venezuela than say UAE or Qatar.

We had "it" until the early 1990s. I don't know how to describe "it" but "it" was there in our industry development, technology development, education, sports, music, everything. "It" was a blend of swagger and intelligence that we may see sparks of in Imran Khan once in a while, but it was in every Pakistani for a time. @Oscar and @messiach might know what I'm referring to. But "it" was killed, and now we're here.

Anyways, back to the Mirage III/5. I'm of the view that we should at least look at rebuilding them, but outside in South Africa or whoever else has remnant capacity. Even if we manage to acquire another strike fighter (let's say a miracle spurts out of the ocean), I'd keep a few M3/5 dedicated strike squadrons in place, it's extra fire power.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Let's say it's as few as the number of countries with nuclear weapons. Let's even cut that in half. How would we Pakistanis know of our limits if we've artificially capped them via corruption, negligence, etc? Not only that, but besides the nuclear weapons program, we Pakistanis sat idle across all industrial development for 70+ years!!!
> 
> So, _*of course *_we'll have difficulties today. But there is _*no reason *_why we couldn't have had even 1/10 of the economic benefits India got through the 1990s and 2000s had we made the same kind of effort in technology, business development, education, etc. We keep laughing, that's all we do, even when we're failing.
> 
> In the last 5 years, I've seen us Pakistanis spend more energy criticizing what Turkey and South Africa apparently can't do (when they show-off progress) than, I don't know, show their own results. I'd wager that if you gave us Pakistanis oil or gas wealth, we'd look more like Nigeria or Venezuela than say UAE or Qatar.
> 
> We had "it" until the early 1990s. I don't know how to describe "it" but "it" was there in our industry development, technology development, education, sports, music, everything. "It" was a blend of swagger and intelligence that we may see sparks of in Imran Khan once in a while, but it was in every Pakistani for a time. @Oscar and @messiach might know what I'm referring to. But "it" was killed, and now we're here.
> 
> Anyways, back to the Mirage III/5. I'm of the view that we should at least look at rebuilding them, but outside in South Africa or whoever else has remnant capacity. Even if we manage to acquire another strike fighter (let's say a miracle spurts out of the ocean), I'd keep a few M3/5 dedicated strike squadrons in place, it's extra fire power.


I concur with your assessment; it is a travesty to see why they could not have gone out for a major retrofitment of M3/5 with Atlas - they did retrofit a few things like on the comms/IFR from our end.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> I concur with your assessment; it is a travesty to see why they could not have gone out for a major retrofitment of M3/5 with Atlas - they did retrofit a few things like on the comms/IFR from our end.


I don't think the PAF anticipated flying the Mirage 3/5 this late. Even with the Ra'ad ALCM and H-2/H-4 SOWs in the pipeline, the PAF probably expected another fighter to use those weapons. According to the PAF's official 1999-2009 book, the J-10A/FC-20 was supposed to take-up the strike role. We also know that from 1996-2004, the PAF wanted the Mirage 2000-5 Mk2, but the French ended its production, leading the PAF to the FC-20.

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## Arsalan

AsifIjaz said:


> @Oscar @waz @Arsalan @Horus
> 
> Is this a mirage thread or a thread where a geezer comes over to vent out his inhibitions, complexes or possibly kills his time. The filth, the poison or the highly questionable / baseless ideas are written without any relevant examples... But are put forth with a conjuring sway with words using weird examples and common phrases and as a result it has the potential to pollute the minds of dozens out there.
> 
> The one who questions or refutes the ideas or figment of ones imagination are insulted openly, called names, made a mockery off and not challenged on the basis of intellect or with facts and figures. More so this has led to or leads to people with relevant background stay away from actively participating. An open discussion where anyone or everyone can ask questions or put forward a point of view without being belittled or insulted looks difficult with the above attitude. I have seen derailing of thread after thread after thread after thread and there is no atopping to it.
> 
> If mockery of the forum rules is permissible then it should be universal and not limited to a selected few. Why give negative ratings or ban people. Dare i say that have we stood besides while people were allowed to run their mouth just so as to not offend them enough and as a result save our pride and respect??
> 
> If not so then I request to please either enforce the rules as its written in black and white or simply make this a free for all.


The posts related to JH7 were moved to a separate thread.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/utility-of-jh7-for-paf.632111/page-7#post-11716074

A few posts cannot be moved as that will disturb the order of discussion however this thread is now not open for JH7 discussion anymore.

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## gangsta_rap

denel said:


> I concur with your assessment; it is a travesty to see why they could not have gone out for a major retrofitment of M3/5 with Atlas - they did retrofit a few things like on the comms/IFR from our end.




forget the atlas. think of how incredible it would have been if we got our hands on some of the jewish electronics and gear that they on the kfir. the early 90s was when the backdoor channels with the israelis was conjuring up a few deals here and there

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## PakAlp

What aircraft do you guys think Pakistan has missed on? Post 2001 Pakistan had a chance to buy planes and they went for brand new f16 block 52s. What other plane was available which we could afford? J10A was not proven fighter, Euro, Rafael we cannot afford. Mirage 2000? We had f16s so it was no point. 

Paf plan was to buy F16s If they become available and they did that. Also had plans since the 1990s to make their own 4th generation plane and they did that. Sounds like a success to me. If we have f7s and Mirages then so has India and China.

We keep forgetting that we are a poor nation which is struggling economically, corruption is through the roof. First fix this.

I can see we need to buy another 4th generation fighter platform but nothing is available for us. Rafael and Euro we cannot afford. J10B is similar to f16. We should admit we have nothing on the market


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## araz

PakAlp said:


> What aircraft do you guys think Pakistan has missed on? Post 2001 Pakistan had a chance to buy planes and they went for brand new f16 block 52s. What other plane was available which we could afford? J10A was not proven fighter, Euro, Rafael we cannot afford. Mirage 2000? We had f16s so it was no point.
> 
> Paf plan was to buy F16s If they become available and they did that. Also had plans since the 1990s to make their own 4th generation plane and they did that. Sounds like a success to me. If we have f7s and Mirages then so has India and China.
> 
> We keep forgetting that we are a poor nation which is struggling economically, corruption is through the roof. First fix this.
> 
> I can see we need to buy another 4th generation fighter platform but nothing is available for us. Rafael and Euro we cannot afford. J10B is similar to f16. We should admit we have nothing on the market


Efforts were made in early 2000s to acquire 59 French M2K5s but after setting the price up the French backed out of the deal instead shoving the Rafale up at us. So M2K5s were tried for but not successful. 
A

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## messiach

Mafias and cartels overtook genuine industrialist. This plague started somewhere the mid-term of Ayub with mafias like now packages etc, reached its peak and continued post 80s with ganjas taking over industry. Madari and military industrial complex followed inline shortly. If IK can do one good thing, he needs to handle the zakootas with abusive contempt, massive financial fines and rigorous imprisonments. I said this to IK, can someone remind him.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We had "it" until the early 1990s. I don't know how to describe "it" but "it" was there in our industry development, technology development, education, sports, music, everything. "It" was a blend of swagger and intelligence that we may see sparks of in Imran Khan once in a while, but it was in every Pakistani for a time. @Oscar and @messiach might know what I'm referring to. But "it" was killed, and now we're here.



@MastanKhan has got some validity in his argument. He is not all wrong. The success of FC-1B (former FC-1E) willl offset some of the exsistential imbalance.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Anyways, back to the Mirage III/5. I'm of the view that we should at least look at rebuilding them, but outside in South Africa or whoever else has remnant capacity. Even if we manage to acquire another strike fighter (let's say a miracle spurts out of the ocean), I'd keep a few M3/5 dedicated strike squadrons in place, it's extra fire power.

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## Inception-06

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> He is the worst thing happen to Pakistan



what could have happened better than him? off-topic, I know, but could not withhold my question!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> Mafias and cartels overtook genuine industrialist. This plague started somewhere the mid-term of Ayub with mafias like now packages etc, reached its peak and continued post 80s with ganjas taking over industry. Madari and military industrial complex followed inline shortly. If IK can do one good thing, he needs to handle the zakootas with abusive contempt, massive financial fines and rigorous imprisonments. I said this to IK, can someone remind him.
> 
> 
> 
> @MastanKhan has got some validity in his argument. He is not all wrong. The success of FC-1B (former FC-1E) willl offset some of the exsistential imbalance.


The truth is always in the middle. I'm aware, first hand, of conceit/arrogance in some circles (e.g., we tend to make fun of the Turks for some reason, even though they by whatever means are moving ahead, while we haven't).

But I also know of situations where well-meaning PAF efforts were shut down by the US and/or India, e.g., the attempt to buy MBDA & Thales equipment for the JF-17.

Likewise, the M2K/-5 drama can't be reduced to avoiding corruption, I think the fact that Paris wouldn't extend a line-of-credit also played a huge role. There were even efforts for Airbus MRTTs from Europe that got shut down by external pressures on vendors. I think the 1-2 bad apples within seem a lot bigger than they are when you're up against a lot of external pressures.

That said, I do hope we adapt our SOWs for the JF-17. As we've said dozens of times already, if the Ra'ad/II can't fit on the JF-17, then we should figure out a way to make it fit, even if it means creating a new Ra'ad variant.

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## Deltadart

Getting back to topic. Does anyone know the status of our mirage purchase from Egypt, and possible purchase of mirage 3S from Switzerland?

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## messiach

Well there was a definite sabotage attempt by internal saboteurs to derail turbine development. Even till last year with mohmand dam, the interest was to purchase OTC solution for HETs. Some houndfaces lit up. & I, as per usual gave a surruptous welcome to the hounds. Apart from IK, i dont think anyone would like to see me back.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The truth is always in the middle. I'm aware, first hand, of conceit/arrogance in some circles (e.g., we tend to make fun of the Turks for some reason, even though they by whatever means are moving ahead, while we haven't).
> 
> But I also know of situations where well-meaning PAF efforts were shut down by the US and/or India, e.g., the attempt to buy MBDA & Thales equipment for the JF-17.
> 
> Likewise, the M2K/-5 drama can't be reduced to avoiding corruption, I think the fact that Paris wouldn't extend a line-of-credit also played a huge role. There were even efforts for Airbus MRTTs from Europe that got shut down by external pressures on vendors. I think the 1-2 bad apples within seem a lot bigger than they are when you're up against a lot of external pressures.
> 
> That said, I do hope we adapt our SOWs for the JF-17. As we've said dozens of times already, if the Ra'ad/II can't fit on the JF-17, then we should figure out a way to make it fit, even if it means creating a new Ra'ad variant.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deltadart said:


> Getting back to topic. Does anyone know the status of our mirage purchase from Egypt, and possible purchase of mirage 3S from Switzerland?


I'd reckon we'll find out about the Egypt one when (1) when the PAF announces/shows off the planes or (2) when the PAF tells someone at the Dubai Air Show that the deal didn't work out. For now, I'd say the program is actually in progress and, hopefully, (1) will materialize sooner than later.



messiach said:


> Well there was a definite sabotage attempt by internal saboteurs to derail turbine development. Even till last year with mohmand dam, the interest was to purchase OTC solution for HETs. Some houndfaces lit up. & I, as per usual gave a surruptous welcome to the hounds. Apart from IK, i dont think anyone would like to see me back.


Indeed. Even if we can't pair gas turbine, semi-conductor, metallurgy, etc to defence, we could've at least let the civilian side of those technologies excel. In that case, we'd have high-value exports to drive-up our hard currency reserves, which we can then use towards defence imports (much like Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, etc).

The other issue is that we didn't leverage defence imports well enough. When it bought arms, not only did Germany require near 100% offsets, but it forced the OEM to drive offset investment to German R&D in critical tech.

To this day, we're punching below our weight. We have a market of 200 m people; how on earth are the likes of Toyota, Honda, etc getting away with CKD/SKD assembly? Why aren't we forcing them to undertake turnkey manufacturing and 51%+ local materials sourcing?

Unfortunately, we've gone way beyond complacency and corruption. It's like low level, short term gains that are pennies vs what other nationals do, yet causes maximum damage to Pakistan. Like, you can do the kind of corruption where you manipulate another country's markets for personal gain, yet our guys prefer manipulating their own home market and earn 1/100 of what they could had they done it elsewhere. It's baffling.

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## denel

GIANTsasquatch said:


> forget the atlas. think of how incredible it would have been if we got our hands on some of the jewish electronics and gear that they on the kfir. the early 90s was when the backdoor channels with the israelis was conjuring up a few deals here and there


everything is possible.... as we say here 'we will make a plan'.

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## MastanKhan

ice_man said:


> Dear Mastan,
> 
> You have been saying this for a decade now on this forum. That PAF high command has been sabotaging the purchase of new fighters. I agree with you they keep fiddling with no clear plan of what they wish to purchase and when. They are happy with what they see. rather than see that the world has moved on to F15s SU35s and F35s.
> 
> However, the problem i feel is less with PAF high command or procurement section. The problem i believe solely lies with the Pakistan Army.
> 
> The army consumes the major bulk of the budget whatever is left is given to PAF and lastly Pakistan Navy is left to scrap the bottom of the barrel.
> 
> So unfortunately i feel the PAF has major budget constraints to procure any major weapons. No one clearly knows the defence budget of Pakistan breakdown as in which branch of the armed forces gets how much money to procure what they require.
> 
> Window to procure something to replace Mirage IIIs and Vs is running out since a decade but it seems PAF is helpless.



Hi,

Army has no say in what the air force does---. Nobody has any say in what the air force does---.

But such a directionless entity the PAF is---I could never in my wildest of dreams could imagine that---but then when I put all the things together from 55 years ago---I realized that it is all intentional---.

This sabotage has treason written allover it---and it is wilfully being done one air chief marshal after the other---.

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> F35 does..i assume others will as well



Hi,

Are you saying that F35 is capable of mounting a 1000 KG + Ashm on each external pylon



The Accountant said:


> Here I would humbly disagree. I dont consider an aircraft upgraded unless it is integrated to command and control infrastructure along with link 17 and jh7a having radar and avionics different therefore it will take significant time and only after that trainnig will begin. By looking at the past history i think just the contract negotiation and delivery will take atleast a year even if we start on fast track basis today.
> 
> Plus I feel today priority is upgradation of air superiroity fighter. F16s cant compete meteor and rafael combo and they are coming this year and will take max 2 years to get fully capable deployment.
> 
> If I had money and decision making power I will go for Viper (block 70) or Typhoon to counter Rafael otherwise PAF will be on same status as we were during kargil war i.e. retreat



Hi,

If it was not for me---you pakistani kids would not even know or understand what " integration " is---. So please don't teach me about integration---.

Now you want to talk about " I feel "---this is fcking war---these are weapons of war---and not how you feel---your feel does not mean sh-it---.

Talk with historical precedence---why did the Roman armies had heavy fighting force along with light and fast ---why did the mongols have heavy fighting troops along with light and fast---.

The greatest fighting forces of the world had both light and heavy troops for combat in the past---.

Modern combat has not changed anything---even the mighty US has reverted back to its obsolte heavy aircraft the B52 and made it a modern day monster with the likes of nothing else on the planet---.

It would not take 1 year for Israel to get a much needed weapon from america---then why would it take 1 year for you to get the JH7A from china---.

It took less than 72 hours for Israel to get the Thaad anti missile system in israel after the 27th---so why would you not be able to get something from 'big brother' china on a snap---.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But I also know of situations where well-meaning PAF efforts were shut down by the US and/or India, e.g., the attempt to buy MBDA & Thales equipment for the JF-17.
> 
> Likewise, the M2K/-5 drama can't be reduced to avoiding corruption, I think the fact that Paris wouldn't extend a line-of-credit also played a huge role. There were even efforts for Airbus MRTTs from Europe that got shut down by external pressures on vendors. I think the 1-2 bad apples within seem a lot bigger than they are when you're up against a lot of external pressures.
> 
> That said, I do hope we adapt our SOWs for the JF-17. As we've said dozens of times already, if the Ra'ad/II can't fit on the JF-17, then we should figure out a way to make it fit, even if it means creating a new Ra'ad variant.



Hi,

I knew long before that france won't come true---I mentioned it---but no one listened---.

Pakistan & Paf tried to trick fck france---playing with them get the M2K's and then toying with Rafale---screwing the french up on the submarine deal after getting the Augusta 90 and rejecting the scorpene and going for the german subs---ended up with nothing---.

I mean to ask---who was pakistan trying to fool---you fck the french up good multiple times and yet you want a favor from them---and when they poke you in the eye---you want to cry murder--- cry me a river---.



The Accountant said:


> Even in that case JH7A dont fill the bill. J10A cant face rafael. So your logic is still flawed



Hi,

I apologize up front---please don't be upset---.

Who the fck wanted the JH7A to fight the Rafale---which moron wanted the JH7A for air to air---.

I know I asked for the JH7A---but that was to have the ability to carry at least two CM400 AKG 1000 KG + AShM or ASM or have the possibility of carrying 2 babur type ALCM or two Hatf V111 ALCM for standoff delivery on indian coastal cities or against indian navy ships---

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,


*SOM (missile)*

2 carried internally in stealth mode, has 500lb+ warhead(larger the both exocet and harpoon) and variety of other subammunition

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Are you saying that F35 is capable of mounting a 1000 KG + Ashm on each external pylon
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> If it was not for me---you pakistani kids would not even know or understand what " integration " is---. So please don't teach me about integration---.
> 
> Now you want to talk about " I feel "---this is fcking war---these are weapons of war---and not how you feel---your feel does not mean sh-it---.
> 
> Talk with historical precedence---why did the Roman armies had heavy fighting force along with light and fast ---why did the mongols have heavy fighting troops along with light and fast---.
> 
> The greatest fighting forces of the world had both light and heavy troops for combat in the past---.
> 
> Modern combat has not changed anything---even the mighty US has reverted back to its obsolte heavy aircraft the B52 and made it a modern day monster with the likes of nothing else on the planet---.
> 
> It would not take 1 year for Israel to get a much needed weapon from america---then why would it take 1 year for you to get the JH7A from china---.
> 
> It took less than 72 hours for Israel to get the Thaad anti missile system in israel after the 27th---so why would you not be able to get something from 'big brother' china on a snap---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I knew long before that france won't come true---I mentioned it---but no one listened---.
> 
> Pakistan & Paf tried to trick fck france---playing with them get the M2K's and then toying with Rafale---screwing the french up on the submarine deal after getting the Augusta 90 and rejecting the scorpene and going for the german subs---ended up with nothing---.
> 
> I mean to ask---who was pakistan trying to fool---you fck the french up good multiple times and yet you want a favor from them---and when they poke you in the eye---you want to cry murder--- cry me a river---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I apologize up front---please don't be upset---.
> 
> Who the fck wanted the JH7A to fight the Rafale---which moron wanted the JH7A for air to air---.
> 
> I know I asked for the JH7A---but that was to have the ability to carry at least two CM400 AKG 1000 KG + AShM or ASM or have the possibility of carrying 2 babur type ALCM or two Hatf V111 ALCM for standoff delivery on indian coastal cities or against indian navy ships---



I don't know what do you think of yourself, but you are not the only one who knows the war strategies. Romans were the fucking super power so were the mongols. this is not classical era anymore where mere muscle power is going to take you at the place you want to be and you can loot all the wealth you want ...

The moment we start making campaign of invading other countries like mongols, Persians or Romans we will bombed to stone age.

Today's world biggest weapons are economic power, media power, political alliances. Where are we on those front? Lets face the reality that economically we are crooked and we can't purchase all the weapons at our will.

You are giving me lecture on integration and here you are claiming that JH7A will cost us 1 to 2 million a piece. You can give this shit to some newbie who don't have knowledge of defense equipment. First of all nobody is going to give you a fighter at 1 million dollar piece furthermore, whatever the per piece cost is try sending an un-integrated JH7A into battle field and it will end up no better than Abhinandan's Mig. 

Can you please tell the kids like me what will be the estimated cost of training and integration of JH7A into existing command and control infrastructure of Pakistan?

If you have to invest 500 to 800 million dollars on just training and integration of an obsolete aircraft why the **** you cant buy 2 squadrons of multirole JF17 that can not only fire stand off weapons but can also survive on its own and is not a maintenance nightmare.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think the PAF anticipated flying the Mirage 3/5 this late. Even with the Ra'ad ALCM and H-2/H-4 SOWs in the pipeline, the PAF probably expected another fighter to use those weapons. According to the PAF's official 1999-2009 book, the J-10A/FC-20 was supposed to take-up the strike role. We also know that from 1996-2004, the PAF wanted the Mirage 2000-5 Mk2, but the French ended its production, leading the PAF to the FC-20.


Yes neither


The Accountant said:


> I don't know what do you think of yourself, but you are not the only one who knows the war strategies. Romans were the fucking super power so were the mongols. this is not classical era anymore where mere muscle power is going to take you at the place you want to be and you can loot all the wealth you want ...
> 
> The moment we start making campaign of invading other countries like mongols, Persians or Romans we will bombed to stone age.
> 
> Today's world biggest weapons are economic power, media power, political alliances. Where are we on those front? Lets face the reality that economically we are crooked and we can't purchase all the weapons at our will.
> 
> You are giving me lecture on integration and here you are claiming that JH7A will cost us 1 to 2 million a piece. You can give this shit to some newbie who don't have knowledge of defense equipment. First of all nobody is going to give you a fighter at 1 million dollar piece furthermore, whatever the per piece cost is try sending an un-integrated JH7A into battle field and it will end up no better than Abhinandan's Mig.
> 
> Can you please tell the kids like me what will be the estimated cost of training and integration of JH7A into existing command and control infrastructure of Pakistan?
> 
> If you have to invest 500 to 800 million dollars on just training and integration of an obsolete aircraft why the **** you cant buy 2 squadrons of multirole JF17 that can not only fire stand off weapons but can also survive on its own and is not a maintenance nightmare.


friend, there is a difference here; comparing a lightweight vs heavy weight. lightweight range will degrade as soon as it has weight to carry; heavy weight will go the full range based on the load. jf-17 is limited in that capability when loaded; again you will expose tankers to refuel etc.
mastankhan is right - of course it wont be a 1mil a piece but everything is negotiable. any aircraft will have a bleed in period; same goes for jf-17b as well. plus with the recent upgrades jh7 remains a very potent aircraft for what it delivers - think of it like a mini strategic bomber/carrier.

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## The Accountant

denel said:


> Yes neither
> 
> friend, there is a difference here; comparing a lightweight vs heavy weight. lightweight range will degrade as soon as it has weight to carry; heavy weight will go the full range based on the load. jf-17 is limited in that capability when loaded; again you will expose tankers to refuel etc.
> mastankhan is right - of course it wont be a 1mil a piece but everything is negotiable. any aircraft will have a bleed in period; same goes for jf-17b as well. plus with the recent upgrades jh7 remains a very potent aircraft for what it delivers - think of it like a mini strategic bomber/carrier.


There is ni dispute over need of a heavy weight. The issue is with the priorities. With rafael and meteor start joining in a few months what is the priority ? A naval bomber or an air superiority fighter that can counter rafael? we have limited resources and already have invested much on Navy in terms of type 54, Milgem, 8 AIP submarines, Anti ship coastal batteries and planned upgradation of F22_ and Agusta.

Our priority is to get a decent number of multi-role capable fighters first and then we can focus on bombers. Plus JH7A are not integrated into our fleet therefore, their integration, training and setting up maintenance infrastructure will be a huge cost...

Even if we want a heavy I would prefer a multirole heavy over strike aircraft given the limited resources

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I knew long before that france won't come true---I mentioned it---but no one listened---.
> 
> Pakistan & Paf tried to trick fck france---playing with them get the M2K's and then toying with Rafale---screwing the french up on the submarine deal after getting the Augusta 90 and rejecting the scorpene and going for the german subs---ended up with nothing---.
> 
> I mean to ask---who was pakistan trying to fool---you fck the french up good multiple times and yet you want a favor from them---and when they poke you in the eye---you want to cry murder--- cry me a river---.


The PAF asked the French for the M2K-5/9 in 2002/2003, and the French made it clear to them (plus India, Taiwan, Greece, UAE, Qatar, etc) that the M2K line was ending. Then at some point (2004?) it seemed efforts were made to get used M2K/-5s from Qatar plus various sources, but that fell through because it was clear back then that no one (including the French) wanted to 'upset India.'

As for the Rafale, are you aware that the T1/F1 variants of the Rafale and Typhoon didn't offer a progression track for AESA radar and true multi-role upgrades? Every Typhoon T1 user today is trying to off-load their T1s as it has become a maintenance white elephant. France only got off to a good start with F2/F3 sales, at which point Pak-French ties were a non-factor.

As for the Marlin/Scorpene. In 2005-2006 the PN actually had multiple programs, among them the SSP (which went to the German Type 214) but also a next-gen frigate. The French FREMM was in the running right until Zardari/PPP came in and signed an IMF deal, which permanently scuttled credit lines from Germany and France for these items. But no, the PN didn't leave France in the dust, it was the other way around.

Germany/France's loss became China's gain via the Hangor SSP and Type 054A. And sensing the opportunity, the Turks and Dutch walked in with creative layaway-type financing arrangements.

Anyways, the PAF's mistake was probably back in the late 1970s when Carter offered to help find a third-party EXIM loan for a M2K & F-1 purchase from France.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF asked the French for the M2K-5/9 in 2002/2003, and the French made it clear to them (plus India, Taiwan, Greece, UAE, Qatar, etc) that the M2K line was ending. Then at some point (2004?) it seemed efforts were made to get used M2K/-5s from Qatar plus various sources, but that fell through because it was clear back then that no one (including the French) wanted to 'upset India.'
> 
> As for the Rafale, are you aware that the T1/F1 variants of the Rafale and Typhoon didn't offer a progression track for AESA radar and true multi-role upgrades? Every Typhoon T1 user today is trying to off-load their T1s as it has become a maintenance white elephant. France only got off to a good start with F2/F3 sales, at which point Pak-French ties were a non-factor.
> 
> As for the Marlin/Scorpene. In 2005-2006 the PN actually had multiple programs, among them the SSP (which went to the German Type 214) but also a next-gen frigate. The French FREMM was in the running right until Zardari/PPP came in and signed an IMF deal, which permanently scuttled credit lines from Germany and France for these items. But no, the PN didn't leave France in the dust, it was the other way around.
> 
> Germany/France's loss became China's gain via the Hangor SSP and Type 054A. And sensing the opportunity, the Turks and Dutch walked in with creative layaway-type financing arrangements.
> 
> Anyways, the PAF's mistake was probably back in the late 1970s when Carter offered to help find a third-party EXIM loan for a M2K & F-1 purchase from France.


I do wonder whether there was ever an opportunity to buy the whole assembly line of the M2K5s from France. I know it would have cost an arm and a leg, and we would still be dependent on the french and bleeding money, but by now we could have access to a decent manufacturing base and the lessons learnt could have been incorporated into the JFT.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> I do wonder whether there was ever an opportunity to buy the whole assembly line of the M2K5s from France. I know it would have cost an arm and a leg, and we would still be dependent on the french and bleeding money, but by now we could have access to a decent manufacturing base and the lessons learnt could have been incorporated into the JFT.
> A


I think it would have been in the late 1970s. In fact, after the PAF selected the F-16, the Indians were seriously thinking about locally manufacturing the M2K. But for some reason they went full ham on the Su-30MKI (a huge blessing in disguise, the M2K-H is their best asset for Indo-Pak fights IMO).

So, if the US just said "no" to the F-16, then the 110 fighters would've been the M2K instead of the F-16, and I'd imagine the PAF would've brought up local assembly.

But in the late 1980s, the PAF started looking for a F-6 replacement and lightweight multi-role complement to the F-16. There was the Grumman-Chengdu Sabre II, but Dassault also offered the Mirage F-1 production line with every ATAR turbojet available (as per AC Kaiser Tufail). 

Had the PAF took Dassault up on that offer, then in the 1990s they could have made a F-1 variant with the Klimov SMR-95 turbofan engine and, in turn, gotten a Block-1 JF-17 15-20 years earlier. It would've also made the actual JF-17 program more ambitious in scope (no urgency).

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## MIRauf

Only Multi-Role heavy available or has a chance of being available is EFT, I wouldn't count on Ruskies to supply any warbirds, least not right now.

Your best bet is to work with Ruskies to get NOB on J-16 and have Chinese be willing to supply you. J-16 can defend itself, it will be common with PLAAf and PLAN which is opting it over JF-7 types.

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## syed_yusuf

MIRauf said:


> Only Multi-Role heavy available or has a chance of being available is EFT, I wouldn't count on Ruskies to supply any warbirds, least not right now.
> 
> Your best bet is to work with Ruskies to get NOB on J-16 and have Chinese be willing to supply you. J-16 can defend itself, it will be common with PLAAf and PLAN which is opting it over JF-7 types.



Russian can provide NoC for J16 provided chinese and pakistan provide enough pressure. after all J16 is puerly chini mal. and has no ruski parts/equipment/avionics etc. 

and for future PAF should invest in JF33 a Pakistani customize version of FC-31. this is immencely needed to keep the upper edge an negate s400 and like advantage

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MIRauf said:


> Only Multi-Role heavy available or has a chance of being available is EFT, I wouldn't count on Ruskies to supply any warbirds, least not right now.
> 
> Your best bet is to work with Ruskies to get NOB on J-16 and have Chinese be willing to supply you. J-16 can defend itself, it will be common with PLAAf and PLAN which is opting it over JF-7 types.


It'd be better to for the J-16 et. al as it would (probably) mean quick integration work for the SD-10A, C-802, and a Chinese supersonic AShM (e.g., HD-1A, CM-302, CX-1, etc). 

One way to get Russian approvals could be to just pay them a licensing fee for each J-16 we buy from China. The Russians can get $10-15 m extra for every plane they weren't planning to sell to Pakistan.

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## MIRauf

IK needs to have PAF build SAC, just like USAF SAC, start with J-16 and or H-6K and throw in some M-III/V, if current PAF higher ups are not in favor of it then bring back a retired officer who is willing to do it and lead it.

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## Quwa

MIRauf said:


> IK needs to have PAF build SAC, just like USAF SAC, start with J-16 and or H-6K and throw in some M-III/V, if current PAF higher ups are not in favor of it then bring back a retired officer who is willing to do it and lead it.


This is where the US Senate or Congress committee grilling is useful. They put armed forces decision makers on the spot, and while a lot of the questions seem uninformed, they typically get the rot out in the air for someone competent to solve. I'm sure @MastanKhan will love to be on such a committee vs. the PAF.

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## aliyusuf

Quwa said:


> This is where the US Senate or Congress committee grilling is useful. They put armed forces decision makers on the spot, and while a lot of the questions seem uninformed, they typically get the rot out in the air for someone competent to solve. I'm sure @MastanKhan will love to be on such a committee vs. the PAF.


That is quite a good idea. Check & Balance. That is definitely needed. @MastanKhan Sahib will do a much much better job in such a committee than the representatives that are in our National Assembly and Senate.

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## SQ8

mikaal said:


> really is that what your ans to every thing is we didn't had money to buy them ...when all the branches of military and paramilitary forces were busy changing uniforms where did the money came from did someone left shit loads of bags outside the offices ....where did the money come from to build the new headquarters for all 3 branches of military in Islamabad ..... the dum arse top commands are happy to spend money on things which are actually not needed but wont spend the money on actual equipment ... you cant win wars with modern uniforms can you ?
> 
> 
> 
> its not an act of comedy or incompetence its actually treason these people should be shot live on tv lol but we cant expect that ever in our life time as generals and air chiefs and top brass of armed forces are untouchables or lets say THE HIDDEN PUPPETS OF OUTSIDERS


What is the price of a Rafale vs 200000 uniforms?

Can you give me that figure or are you venting without actual information?



Quwa said:


> This is where the US Senate or Congress committee grilling is useful. They put armed forces decision makers on the spot, and while a lot of the questions seem uninformed, they typically get the rot out in the air for someone competent to solve. I'm sure @MastanKhan will love to be on such a committee vs. the PAF.


Likely will look like the committee that grilled Zuckerberg; ill-informed, out of touch and making idiotic questions.

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> I don't know what do you think of yourself, but you are not the only one who knows the war strategies. Romans were the fucking super power so were the mongols. this is not classical era anymore where mere muscle power is going to take you at the place you want to be and you can loot all the wealth you want ...
> 
> The moment we start making campaign of invading other countries like mongols, Persians or Romans we will bombed to stone age.
> 
> Today's world biggest weapons are economic power, media power, political alliances. Where are we on those front? Lets face the reality that economically we are crooked and we can't purchase all the weapons at our will.
> 
> You are giving me lecture on integration and here you are claiming that JH7A will cost us 1 to 2 million a piece. You can give this shit to some newbie who don't have knowledge of defense equipment. First of all nobody is going to give you a fighter at 1 million dollar piece furthermore, whatever the per piece cost is try sending an un-integrated JH7A into battle field and it will end up no better than Abhinandan's Mig.
> 
> Can you please tell the kids like me what will be the estimated cost of training and integration of JH7A into existing command and control infrastructure of Pakistan?
> 
> If you have to invest 500 to 800 million dollars on just training and integration of an obsolete aircraft why the **** you cant buy 2 squadrons of multirole JF17 that can not only fire stand off weapons but can also survive on its own and is not a maintenance nightmare.



Hi,

China is ready to retire the JH7A’s.
They are looking for buyers.

Which normally mean that you can get the machine pennies on the dollar.

If the F16’sfrom jordan could be had cheap why not the jh7a’s
Or if paf paid peanuts for the mirage 3/5.

When you get mad at me dont cut the nose to spite the face.



aliyusuf said:


> That is quite a good idea. Check & Balance. That is definitely needed. @MastanKhan Sahib will do a much much better job in such a committee than the representatives that are in our National Assembly and Senate.





Quwa said:


> This is where the US Senate or Congress committee grilling is useful. They put armed forces decision makers on the spot, and while a lot of the questions seem uninformed, they typically get the rot out in the air for someone competent to solve. I'm sure @MastanKhan will love to be on such a committee vs. the PAF.



Hi

Thanks for the confidence. Now be ready to be insulted and talked down by oscar and snubbed by araz and few others.

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## aliyusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Now be ready to be insulted and talked down by oscar and snubbed by araz and few others.


I have a right to express my opinion. I express it because I think it is right, although it can turn out to be wrong. But I surely don't post on the basis of who will like it and who will not.

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## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> What is the price of a Rafale vs 200000 uniforms?
> 
> Can you give me that figure or are you venting without actual information?
> 
> 
> Likely will look like the committee that grilled Zuckerberg; ill-informed, out of touch and making idiotic questions.


Maybe we should do away with uniforms then we wills have enough to buy a Rafale replica.

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## TsAr

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> China is ready to retire the JH7A’s.
> They are looking for buyers.
> 
> Which normally mean that you can get the machine pennies on the dollar.
> 
> If the F16’sfrom jordan could be had cheap why not the jh7a’s
> Or if paf paid peanuts for the mirage 3/5.
> 
> When you get mad at me dont cut the nose to spite the face.


If China is retiring the JH7 that means that for future over hauls or maintenance PAF would need to make rebuilt factory in kamra that would surely involve money. Training and infrastructure would also cost a lot. So these Jh7 would not be that cheap.
For F-16 or mirages everything is in place.


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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> Maybe we should do away with uniforms then we wills have enough to buy a Rafale replica.



Hi

New uniforms for army navy air force
New hq buildings in isloo
New squad of high end cars

That would be a substantial amount of money in millions of dollars.

For s poor country where every other poster on this forum cries of shortage of funds any bit would have helped in weapons procurement



TsAr said:


> If China is retiring the JH7 that means that for future over hauls or maintenance PAF would need to make rebuilt factory in kamra that would surely involve money. Training and infrastructure would also cost a lot. So these Jh7 would not be that cheap.
> For F-16 or mirages everything is in place.



F16 are not available.
Mirage 3/5 cannot do the job of a heavy strike platform.

The mother is dying and pakistanis are
Worried about the medical bills.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> What is the price of a Rafale vs 200000 uniforms?
> 
> Can you give me that figure or are you venting without actual information?
> 
> 
> Likely will look like the committee that grilled Zuckerberg; ill-informed, out of touch and making idiotic questions.


That's true, but you do get a decent grill once in a while!

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's true, but you do get a decent grill once in a while!



Hi,

Oscar is just looking at the surface at what happened because that is the limit of his intellect---the inside story is the even though Zuckerberg came out looking clever---inside he was shitting bricks---because he is looking at the american parliament has facebook in their GUN sights---and when the american parliament have their focus on someone---there is no escaping---.

Oscar---you can hold onto your stupid comments for awhile---.

The congress and senate are old dogs---just because they did not know where to bite does not mean that they don't know how to sink their teeth in---.

They want to save their jobs and will earn really quick how and from t get him---.

Never sell the american parliament short---do it at your own peril and Zuckerberg knows that very well---.


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## denel

TsAr said:


> If China is retiring the JH7 that means that for future over hauls or maintenance PAF would need to make rebuilt factory in kamra that would surely involve money. Training and infrastructure would also cost a lot. So these Jh7 would not be that cheap.
> For F-16 or mirages everything is in place.


No, there is no sign they are retiring - instead they are upgrading them.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ying-leopard’-supersonic-fighter-bomber-74381

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## TsAr

denel said:


> No, there is no sign they are retiring - instead they are upgrading them.
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-china’s-new-jh-7a-‘flying-leopard’-supersonic-fighter-bomber-74381


So this talk of getting then for cheap is false then?


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## MastanKhan

TsAr said:


> So this talk of getting then for cheap is false then?



Hi,

That was old news---.

@Khafee you had the link for that news recently---could you kindly post it here---.


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's true, but you do get a decent grill once in a while!


What changed with Zuckerberg?
The old and angry congressmen were unable to even ask pertinent questions and mostly ranted about expired concepts from their times.

What changed was younger people losing trust and reflecting actual knowhow of today’s social media and privacy landscape.

The same should apply to the PAF. You have external subject matter experts available from outside the PAF and from upcoming think tanks and orgs like NDC. They should be the ones being on any committee.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> China is ready to retire the JH7A’s.
> They are looking for buyers.
> 
> Which normally mean that you can get the machine pennies on the dollar.
> 
> If the F16’sfrom jordan could be had cheap why not the jh7a’s
> Or if paf paid peanuts for the mirage 3/5.
> 
> When you get mad at me dont cut the nose to spite the face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Thanks for the confidence. Now be ready to be insulted and talked down by oscar and snubbed by araz and few others.


There is a difference in aquiring an already exiating jet then a totally new jet. The cost of aquisition other than per unit cost is very very high ... plus how much remaining life is there ?

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Shoo off please---go somewhere else---.


You can adopt your advise yourself. Dont reply

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## Ultima Thule

The Accountant said:


> You can adopt your advise yourself. Dont reply


@MastanKhan is most stupid egoist poster here on PDF sir @The Accountant

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## Psychic

Oscar said:


> What is the price of a Rafale vs 200000 uniforms?
> 
> Can you give me that figure or are you venting without actual information?


Forget the uniforms;

_"It was told that the new GHQ facility would be established on 2,450 acres in sectors E-10 and D-11, adjacent to Naval and Air Headquarters in sectors E-8 and E-9. The committee was informed *that Rs100 billion would be spent on the new GHQ facility*. It was told that the *cost has been increased by Rs30 billion *and this amount will be collected by sale of military land."
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/24...slamabad-increases-by-Rs30-bnSenate-body-told_

PKR 100 billion = 625.8 million USD

With this sum and the amount siphoned off to Dubai accounts, we could've raised a squadron at least.

We have witnessed the wastage of funds in a similar manner on countless other occasions. Be it uniforms, corruption or misguided procurement for the sake of kickbacks. -Little drops that make the mighty ocean.

Ghass kha ke fauj ko iss liay nahi paala tha kay waqt aane pe hum ko taxes ka taana day aur khud economy ka bahana lay

Military must be subjected to Austerity ASAP. We are at the brink of war - a mad man is sitting on our eastern border.

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## Code_Geass

you are saying no facility will be built and all the amount will be sent abroad, i thought we ate "GHASS" for nuclear capability which we have


Psychic said:


> Forget the uniforms;
> 
> _"It was told that the new GHQ facility would be established on 2,450 acres in sectors E-10 and D-11, adjacent to Naval and Air Headquarters in sectors E-8 and E-9. The committee was informed *that Rs100 billion would be spent on the new GHQ facility*. It was told that the *cost has been increased by Rs30 billion *and this amount will be collected by sale of military land."
> https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/24...slamabad-increases-by-Rs30-bnSenate-body-told_
> 
> PKR 100 billion = 625.8 million USD
> 
> With this sum and the amount siphoned off to Dubai accounts, we could've raised a squadron at least.
> 
> We have witnessed the wastage of funds in a similar manner on countless other occasions. Be it uniforms, corruption or misguided procurement for the sake of kickbacks. -Little drops that make the mighty ocean.
> 
> Ghass kha ke fauj ko iss liay nahi paala tha kay waqt aane pe hum ko taxes ka taana day aur khud economy ka bahana lay
> 
> Military must be subjected to Austerity ASAP. We are at the brink of war - a mad man is sitting on our eastern border.


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## Psychic

Code_Geass said:


> *you are saying no facility will be built* and all the amount will be sent abroad, i thought we ate "GHASS" for nuclear capability which we have


No. I have said that there was no solid reason to waste so much on a new mughal-e-azam style GHQ.

As far as the second part of your post is concerned, let me inform you that we are still eating ghass to keep that giant military machine well oiled.


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## Code_Geass

No we are not had we been locally produced ghass we womt have this huge trade deficit


Psychic said:


> No. I have said that there was no solid reason to waste so much on a new mughal-e-azam style GHQ.
> 
> As far as the second part of your post is concerned, let me inform you that we are still eating ghass to keep that giant military machine well oiled.


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## SQ8

mikaal said:


> dude are you really being serious here asking me that stupid question ?specially you being an old expert here on the armed forces.....may be one day you will use your brain properly and start thinking bigger and live in reality ...
> let just say we couldnt buy the rafale for the price of those uniforms or the new HQ in ISLAMABAD ...
> Let me ask you a simple question how many mraps we could have bought for the price of those uniforms ?how many SONS OF THIS NATION COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED...........forget the hq for the moment we wont include the price of that ... if you cant listen to the truth then i would suggest take some sleeping tablets like rest of the glory hunter kiss arse of the armed forces and live in the bubble which you have been living for generations ....


Buddy, take a break and stop being a smart arse.

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Shoo off please---go somewhere else---.


This arrogance deserves a negative rating.

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## Sine Nomine

Bahiyo aur un ke behno Pakistan kai pass paisey nahi hain,jub tuk Mirage series mai jaan hai yehi urti rahey gee.
No JH-7,J-10, or anyother platform for time being except JFT.

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## JK!

Having an aircraft to act as a heavy duty bomb truck is one thing and I would favour the JH7A for this reason for starters but with the increased ranges and capabilities of modern SAMs this then needs to be combined with long range precision stand off weapons.

Looking at the aircraft is just half the picture.

Think there was mention of Pakistan and Ukraine agreeing to work in this field at one of the last IDEAS events.

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## Sine Nomine

JK! said:


> Having an aircraft to act as a heavy duty bomb truck is one thing and I would favour the JH7A for this reason for starters but with the increased ranges and capabilities of modern SAMs this then needs to be combined with long range precision stand off weapons.
> 
> Looking at the aircraft is just half the picture.
> 
> Think there was mention of Pakistan and Ukraine agreeing to work in this field at one of the last IDEAS events.


Better to Equip them for SEAD & DEAD missions.


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## JK!

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Better to Equip them for SEAD & DEAD missions.



This is my point exactly. 

What munitions and weapons could we partner with this platform and who can we work with on this?

For example for naval missions we could partner with Ukraine to integrate the Neptun cruise missile.

We’ve worked with South Africa to integrate the Raptor series of bombs.

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## Armchair

JK! said:


> This is my point exactly.
> 
> What munitions and weapons could we partner with this platform and who can we work with on this?
> 
> For example for naval missions we could partner with Ukraine to integrate the Neptun cruise missile.
> 
> We’ve worked with South Africa to integrate the Raptor series of bombs.



The idea of multirole has been misunderstood. People sometimes imagine that this means that an aircraft goes into a mission, kills a2a, performs a2g, or then kills a2a and comes back home to a hurrah!
Reality is this rarely ever happens. Aircraft that are performing a2g missions, keep to that mission, while (in some cases the same model of aircraft but a separate flock of aircraft) go in for an a2a role. 
So you could have a flock of a2g JF-17s, and another flock of a2a JF-17s. They could re-arm and play another role, but most often, not during the same mission. 

The other issue is training. Multirole pilots spend a portion of the time doing a2a training and another portion doing a2g. Sometimes this can be an 80/20 split, and sometimes it can be a 50/50 split. And many possible splits in between. 

Truth a told, a flock of pilots that train 90% and above on a2a will be better at a2a than a flock of pilots doing 50/50 training. 

The point I am trying to make here is that being multirole comes at a cost. We have to decide whether "the juice is worth the squeeze". 
1. Less dedication to single role reduces pilot competency in multiple roles
2. Cost of training increases sharply, and wear and tear on the aircraft also increases
3. Multirole aircraft have been a trend. There is no reason that trends cannot be reversed. Bell-bottoms were also a great trend...

Mirages dedicated to a strike role can, at low cost and with great expertise (from being single role), play a critical role very efficiently. And by efficiently we mean get the job done at the lowest cost possible. 

Ideally, an airforce should have dedicated aircraft, and multirole aircraft, just like a cricket team has dedicated batsmen and ballers, and also all rounders. Having a team of all all-rounders isn't effective or efficient.

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## Dazzler



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## Sine Nomine

JK! said:


> This is my point exactly.
> 
> What munitions and weapons could we partner with this platform and who can we work with on this?
> 
> For example for naval missions we could partner with Ukraine to integrate the Neptun cruise missile.
> 
> We’ve worked with South Africa to integrate the Raptor series of bombs.


Well there is a list of few things according to my layman's knowledge which can be coupled with this platform and used to destroy enemy AD.
1-RWR/ESM/ELINT Sensors suit+
wideband tactical jamming system.
2-A system which can intercept and automatically processes radar signals and manages the transmitters to effectively jam large numbers of diverse radar threats.Can Jam enemy land-based, shipborne, and airborne command, control, and communications systems, as well as radars that provide early warning and target acquisition surveillance of anti-aircraft artillery and air-to-surface, surface-to-surface, and surface-to-air missiles.Having range of no less then 300km.
3-Digital Radio Frequency Memory(DRFM).
4-UHF/VHF/Satcom and datalink.
5-AESA Radar.
6-Anti-radiation Missiles.
All the listed systems are very cutting edge,when it comes to getting a full system having all these things our options are limited.Here are few of our options:-
1-KG-800 or RKL700A RWR/ESM/ELINT/ pod.
2-Above mentioned pods have DRFM.
3-Link 17.
4-NRIET AESA Radar.
5-Since all systems are being sourced from China when it comes to missiles,we are left with two options a)China(YJ-91 Missile with range of 120 km,CM-103,LD-10).
This package would be a nightmare.


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## Dazzler

Title reads,,

*Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.*

ROSE-1 - All five Mirage IIIDPs, plus all 32 Australian singleseaters Mirage IIIO (100)
ROSE-2 - 19 French ex-Mirage 5EFs
ROSE-3 - Remaining 14 ex-French Mirage 5EFs

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## Basel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'd be better to for the J-16 et. al as it would (probably) mean quick integration work for the SD-10A, C-802, and a Chinese supersonic AShM (e.g., HD-1A, CM-302, CX-1, etc).
> 
> One way to get Russian approvals could be to just pay them a licensing fee for each J-16 we buy from China. The Russians can get $10-15 m extra for every plane they weren't planning to sell to Pakistan.



It will be good way to get J-16.


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## Dazzler

Take that for a bomb truck..







before upgrade







after upgrade

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## aliyusuf

Dazzler said:


> ROSE-1 - All five Mirage IIIDPs, plus all 32 Australian singleseaters Mirage IIIO (100)


Do you think that the Mirages-IIIDP's nose cone has enough space to house the Grifo-M3 radar? Isn't it's nose narrower than the single seater Miarge-IIIEA (also known as Mirage-IIIO)?

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## Dazzler

aliyusuf said:


> Do you think that the Mirages-IIIDP's nose cone has enough space to house the Grifo-M3 radar? Isn't it's nose narrower than the single seater Miarge-IIIEA (also known as Mirage-IIIO)?



Mirage 3 rose 1 have grifo. 






Rose 2 have DART FLIR sensor beneath front front fuselage.

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> This arrogance deserves a negative rating.



Oh gee——-I am shaking at my knees for the neg rating by this suck up retd mod who never had anything original of his own posted on the forum.

Someone hold me——.

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## Basel

Dazzler said:


> Title reads,,
> 
> *Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.*
> 
> ROSE-1 - All five Mirage IIIDPs, plus all 32 Australian singleseaters Mirage IIIO (100)
> ROSE-2 - 19 French ex-Mirage 5EFs
> ROSE-3 - Remaining 14 ex-French Mirage 5EFs



Where are Egyptian Mirages??

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## aliyusuf

Dazzler said:


> Mirage 3 rose 1 have grifo.
> 
> View attachment 576511
> 
> 
> Rose 2 have DART FLIR sensor beneath front front fuselage.
> View attachment 576512


Yes I know that, but on your post #2297, in which you posted that ...
_ROSE-1 - All five Mirage IIIDPs, plus all 32 Australian singleseaters Mirage IIIO (100)_
To which, I had posted that ...
_Do you think that the Mirages-IIIDP's nose cone has enough space to house the Grifo-M3 radar? Isn't it's nose narrower than the single seater Miarge-IIIEA (also known as Mirage-IIIO)?_
Your above post doesn't address what I was asking. Would appreciate if you could clarify that.
Thank you.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Oh gee——-I am shaking at my knees for the neg rating by this suck up retd mod who never had anything original of his own posted on the forum.
> 
> Someone hold me——.



MK I was just thinking that everyone discussing DRFM, including on this thread for the Mirages, doesn't understand that it is not some super duper technology that we cannot get. It is basically the same technology as on active noise cancelling headphones - some of which cost less than 100 dollars per piece. 

Basically a DRFM and an active noise cancelling headphone do the same thing except in different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. It just sounds scary and fancy to everyone because they don't understand the technology behind it. 

Between, I heard you opened a thread while I was banned, I really appreciate that and @Khafee and all the others that stood by me.

The 6 negative ratings I got in the span of a day were all from a trigger happy mod who had no problem with insults on Erdogan but couldn't take a civilized discussion about the crimes committed by Mr. Kemal "Ataturk". I don't care much anymore for these ratings. It took me years to get 6 positive ratings but took one day to get 6 negative ones.

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> This arrogance deserves a negative rating.



Tell me wtf is arrogant about it.

The enemy has surrounded us from all sides, made us lose our friends, and all you have ti is bitch and moan about my post.

You incompetent kids are the true enemies of pakistan.

As long as you people live with this mindset india does not have to worry.

Go focus on finding fighter / strike aircraft and make a 32 out the negative rating and take it.

Friggins traitors. Enemy is knocking down the doors and incompetent dont like my tone—-go find some weapons.



Armchair said:


> MK I was just thinking that everyone discussing DRFM, including on this thread for the Mirages, doesn't understand that it is not some super duper technology that we cannot get. It is basically the same technology as on active noise cancelling headphones - some of which cost less than 100 dollars per piece.
> 
> Basically a DRFM and an active noise cancelling headphone do the same thing except in different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. It just sounds scary and fancy to everyone because they don't understand the technology behind it.
> 
> Between, I heard you opened a thread while I was banned, I really appreciate that and @Khafee and all the others that stood by me.
> 
> The 6 negative ratings I got in the span of a day were all from a trigger happy mod who had no problem with insults on Erdogan but couldn't take a civilized discussion about the crimes committed by Mr. Kemal "Ataturk". I don't care much anymore for these ratings. It took me years to get 6 positive ratings but took one day to get 6 negative ones.



Hi

Shit happens. Our Turk brothers are very sensitive to criticism.

Their sense of nationalism does not allow anyone to be critical of their heritage.

It is anticipated that these mirages may end up on one way trip so loss of machine will not be felt too much.

Rather lose an older aircraft than a newer one.

There is a poster here who is upset at me for talking about pilot loss with mirage.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Tell me wtf is arrogant about it.
> 
> The enemy has surrounded us from all sides, made us lose our friends, and all you have ti is bitch and moan about my post.
> 
> You incompetent kids are the true enemies of pakistan.
> 
> As long as you people live with this mindset india does not have to worry.
> 
> Go focus on finding fighter / strike aircraft and make a 32 out the negative rating and take it.
> 
> Friggins traitors. Enemy is knocking down the doors and incompetent dont like my tone—-go find some weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Shit happens. Our Turk brothers are very sensitive to criticism.
> 
> Their sense of nationalism does not allow anyone to be critical of their heritage.
> 
> It is anticipated that these mirages may end up on one way trip so loss of machine will not be felt too much.
> 
> Rather lose an older aircraft than a newer one.
> 
> There is a poster here who is upset at me for talking about pilot loss with mirage.



At Red Flag, it was seen that low level strike still works but with a steady incidence of casualties. So you aren't off the mark with your comment. A serving PAF officer wrote a paper where he looked at using UCAVs instead. 

I think PAF doesn't truly want to lose deep penetration low level striks. I think they want to use the Mirages with standoff munitions and leave it at that. Not unlike how it was used on the 27th Feb.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Tell me wtf is arrogant about it.
> 
> The enemy has surrounded us from all sides, made us lose our friends, and all you have ti is bitch and moan about my post.
> 
> You incompetent kids are the true enemies of pakistan.
> 
> As long as you people live with this mindset india does not have to worry.
> 
> Go focus on finding fighter / strike aircraft and make a 32 out the negative rating and take it.
> 
> Friggins traitors. Enemy is knocking down the doors and incompetent dont like my tone—-go find some weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Shit happens. Our Turk brothers are very sensitive to criticism.
> 
> Their sense of nationalism does not allow anyone to be critical of their heritage.
> 
> It is anticipated that these mirages may end up on one way trip so loss of machine will not be felt too much.
> 
> Rather lose an older aircraft than a newer one.
> 
> There is a poster here who is upset at me for talking about pilot loss with mirage.


If confined to SOWs, the Mirages will generally be away from contested air space (esp. with Ra'ad deployment).

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## Ra's al Ghul

now doubt its a capable machine but need to be replaced by new/used mirage 2000s.

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## Code_Geass

Mk is like my way or highway

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## Dazzler

aliyusuf said:


> Yes I know that, but on your post #2297, in which you posted that ...
> _ROSE-1 - All five Mirage IIIDPs, plus all 32 Australian singleseaters Mirage IIIO (100)_
> To which, I had posted that ...
> _Do you think that the Mirages-IIIDP's nose cone has enough space to house the Grifo-M3 radar? Isn't it's nose narrower than the single seater Miarge-IIIEA (also known as Mirage-IIIO)?_
> Your above post doesn't address what I was asking. Would appreciate if you could clarify that.
> Thank you.




Mirage-IIIDP (Dual seat) ROSE-III aircraft, capable to perform day-night offensive and counter offensive operations. The aircraft are equipped with Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) sensors.

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## aliyusuf

Dazzler said:


> Mirage-IIIDP (Dual seat) ROSE-III aircraft, capable to perform day-night offensive and counter offensive operations. The aircraft are equipped with Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) sensors.


So these 5 Mirage-IIIDP are ROSE-III air crafts, in addition to the 14 ROSE-III Mirage-VEF's ?

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## MastanKhan

Code_Geass said:


> Mk is like my way or highway



No it is not.
It is about showing concern. Focus on getting things right in a timely manner.

Standing together and understanding the level of threat presented by the enemy.

Making a joint stand and confronting our air force in a united manner and asking them why the the problems have not been resolved.

Rather than accepting their excuses and then justifying on their behalf, sucking upto the air force personal and preaching their story.

A nations strike force is nit built in that manner

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> No it is not.
> It is about showing concern. Focus on getting things right in a timely manner.
> 
> Standing together and understanding the level of threat presented by the enemy.
> 
> Making a joint stand and confronting our air force in a united manner and asking them why the the problems have not been resolved.
> 
> Rather than accepting their excuses and then justifying on their behalf, sucking upto the air force personal and preaching their story.
> 
> A nations strike force is nit built in that manner


You need a leader like our late PW Botha. The man galvanised everyone and talked the talk; things happened and huge leaps we made; we were working towards a common goal.



Armchair said:


> The idea of multirole has been misunderstood. People sometimes imagine that this means that an aircraft goes into a mission, kills a2a, performs a2g, or then kills a2a and comes back home to a hurrah!
> Reality is this rarely ever happens. Aircraft that are performing a2g missions, keep to that mission, while (in some cases the same model of aircraft but a separate flock of aircraft) go in for an a2a role.
> So you could have a flock of a2g JF-17s, and another flock of a2a JF-17s. They could re-arm and play another role, but most often, not during the same mission.
> 
> The other issue is training. Multirole pilots spend a portion of the time doing a2a training and another portion doing a2g. Sometimes this can be an 80/20 split, and sometimes it can be a 50/50 split. And many possible splits in between.
> 
> Truth a told, a flock of pilots that train 90% and above on a2a will be better at a2a than a flock of pilots doing 50/50 training.
> 
> The point I am trying to make here is that being multirole comes at a cost. We have to decide whether "the juice is worth the squeeze".
> 1. Less dedication to single role reduces pilot competency in multiple roles
> 2. Cost of training increases sharply, and wear and tear on the aircraft also increases
> 3. Multirole aircraft have been a trend. There is no reason that trends cannot be reversed. Bell-bottoms were also a great trend...
> 
> Mirages dedicated to a strike role can, at low cost and with great expertise (from being single role), play a critical role very efficiently. And by efficiently we mean get the job done at the lowest cost possible.
> 
> Ideally, an airforce should have dedicated aircraft, and multirole aircraft, just like a cricket team has dedicated batsmen and ballers, and also all rounders. Having a team of all all-rounders isn't effective or efficient.


People never learn from history - of not having dedicated role specific aircraft.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> The idea of multirole has been misunderstood. People sometimes imagine that this means that an aircraft goes into a mission, kills a2a, performs a2g, or then kills a2a and comes back home to a hurrah!
> Reality is this rarely ever happens. Aircraft that are performing a2g missions, keep to that mission, while (in some cases the same model of aircraft but a separate flock of aircraft) go in for an a2a role.
> So you could have a flock of a2g JF-17s, and another flock of a2a JF-17s. They could re-arm and play another role, but most often, not during the same mission.
> 
> The other issue is training. Multirole pilots spend a portion of the time doing a2a training and another portion doing a2g. Sometimes this can be an 80/20 split, and sometimes it can be a 50/50 split. And many possible splits in between.
> 
> Truth a told, a flock of pilots that train 90% and above on a2a will be better at a2a than a flock of pilots doing 50/50 training.
> 
> The point I am trying to make here is that being multirole comes at a cost. We have to decide whether "the juice is worth the squeeze".
> 1. Less dedication to single role reduces pilot competency in multiple roles
> 2. Cost of training increases sharply, and wear and tear on the aircraft also increases
> 3. Multirole aircraft have been a trend. There is no reason that trends cannot be reversed. Bell-bottoms were also a great trend...
> 
> Mirages dedicated to a strike role can, at low cost and with great expertise (from being single role), play a critical role very efficiently. And by efficiently we mean get the job done at the lowest cost possible.
> 
> Ideally, an airforce should have dedicated aircraft, and multirole aircraft, just like a cricket team has dedicated batsmen and ballers, and also all rounders. Having a team of all all-rounders isn't effective or efficient.



Hi,

Thank you for an excellent post---POST OF THE MONTH and people like you get banned---amazing---.

Army has that and so does the navy---. It means then that there is an issue with the fly boys---.

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## MystryMan

Armchair said:


> At Red Flag, it was seen that low level strike still works but with a steady incidence of casualties. So you aren't off the mark with your comment. A serving PAF officer wrote a paper where he looked at using UCAVs instead.
> 
> I think PAF doesn't truly want to lose deep penetration low level striks. I think they want to use the Mirages with standoff munitions and leave it at that. Not unlike how it was used on the 27th Feb.


Welcome back bro.
Every weapon has certain release altitude range and when M3/M5 do that they become visible to the enemy, and if a hostile CAP is directed toward them then chances of their coming back to base safely reduce specially if they have to stay for guiding the weapon. So the strike aircraft will need EW/ESM support (to fool the ground-based radars/AWACS and make the task difficult for incoming interceptors).

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Tell me wtf is arrogant about it.
> 
> The enemy has surrounded us from all sides, made us lose our friends, and all you have ti is bitch and moan about my post.
> 
> You incompetent kids are the true enemies of pakistan.
> 
> As long as you people live with this mindset india does not have to worry.
> 
> Go focus on finding fighter / strike aircraft and make a 32 out the negative rating and take it.
> 
> Friggins traitors. Enemy is knocking down the doors and incompetent dont like my tone—-go find some weapons.



I could write a few paragraphs, but that would be severely off topic. So, I will not engage you on this. I would just caution you (for the umpteenth time) that I am not a 'kid' you imbecile, geriatric, arrogant, snooty, psycho. You have a sick siege mentality (even though you live in USA) and you want Pakistan to waste resources on everything under the sun. It ain't the middle ages so your analogies do not quite work. Everybody and their dog knows that modern diplomacy & warfare is about economic strength, but here we have a fricking Einstein telling us that we are surrounded by enemy and we MUST throw clothes off our backs into the fire. Are you drunk most of the time? Do you not have a pair to neurons to make the connection that you are advocating failed security-centered policies that have got Pakistan where it is today?

Here is an anecdote from mid-90s: I asked my Bangladeshi friend Jami if he ever worried that India would consume his country. His response was telling: India would not want 10 million Bangladeshis with rifles at the border. You may make fun of this however you want, but he had a point. No country would risk its economic well-being & stability to actively make war. That is the whole damn point that you fail to get every single time you write. Pakistan's interest demands it to be in a position to inflict prohibitive losses on enemy. Pakistan has always been in that position, but the likes of you never ever get it.

I am all for Mirages & leased JH-7As if that means that we spend less money and stay in a position to inflict unacceptable losses. But obsession with parity vis-a-vis India is a major miscalculation that has been taken to a ridiculous extreme.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well I think at time of grave danger to Pakistan, as a Pakistani the most important thing we should realize is respect our own voices.

The February small skirmish, showcased the alert level of Pakistan Air force and their response was measurable and sufficient to let enemy know we are not to be taken lightly

My personal view , while not taking sides with anyone is that I do feel Pakistan *"is being cornered"*
That statement has some reality and realism to it which is not false.

So let me understand the argument

a) Is Mirage a viable platform , which can be further enhanced to cheetah level?
b) We need to opt for newer models from China , likely J10 C or Twin Engine birds China is mass producing

We "economic" strength does comes into play when it comes to National Defence Needs

*Arguments which are inline with our Financial Strength
*
Looking at what KAMRA , mirage rebuild factory has achieved , we can be assured that any additional Mirage will also under go the same magical transformation as any other birds and it would be cost effective, so from a financial stand point this option is great

a) We know we can upgrade the radars
b) We know we can load up weapons on the birds
c) These birds can play a vital role for A2G missions

No harm if we get them 

*
Arguments for Modernization*

Well we need to move with the times , regardless of our upgrades we need to understand we need modern generation crafts to ensure the technological difference does not becomes too immense during the War time


J10D Chinese birds , are modern iteration of flying machines which is worth considering
Sweedish Gripens are a modest single Engine , technologically loaded crafts which are also great European option
F16 if we can get used C/D models sure great plus
F16V promise is just a promise at present




If it was me I would have ordered *100 J10C* already

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> I could write a few paragraphs, but that would be severely off topic. So, I will not engage you on this. I would just caution you (for the umpteenth time) that I am not a 'kid' you imbecile, geriatric, arrogant, snooty, psycho. You have a sick siege mentality (even though you live in USA) and you want Pakistan to waste resources on everything under the sun. It ain't the middle ages so your analogies do not quite work. Everybody and their dog knows that modern diplomacy & warfare is about economic strength, but here we have a fricking Einstein telling us that we are surrounded by enemy and we MUST throw clothes off our backs into the fire. Are you drunk most of the time? Do you not have a pair to neurons to make the connection that you are advocating failed security-centered policies that have got Pakistan where it is today?
> 
> Here is an anecdote from mid-90s: I asked my Bangladeshi friend Jami if he ever worried that India would consume his country. His response was telling: India would not want 10 million Bangladeshis with rifles at the border. You may make fun of this however you want, but he had a point. No country would risk its economic well-being & stability to actively make war. That is the whole damn point that you fail to get every single time you write. Pakistan's interest demands it to be in a position to inflict prohibitive losses on enemy. Pakistan has always been in that position, but the likes of you never ever get it.
> 
> I am all for Mirages & leased JH-7As if that means that we spend less money and stay in a position to inflict unacceptable losses. But obsession with parity vis-a-vis India is a major miscalculation that has been taken to a ridiculous extreme.



Hi,

You had no reason to butt in---, Bacha devay gaan tay bund patay dhagay di---janab---. what are you jumping up and down for---.

and yes---why don't you write something---why don't you write a few paragraphs that have some substance to the defense needs of the country---.

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## Ghessan

we have a problem with high ego, won't serve ourselves won't serve the country.


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## ali_raza

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You had no reason to butt in---, Bacha devay gaan tay bund patay dhagay di---janab---. what are you jumping up and down for---.
> 
> and yes---why don't you write something---why don't you write a few paragraphs that have some substance to the defense needs of the country---.


hahahaha we need proper translation on that topic @Khafee

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## mshan44



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 576655


I love my BABAS(vintage Mirages) more than anything we have.What a formidable aircraft,still uncatchable at Mach 2 and a reliable bomb truck.

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## Imran Khan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well I think at time of grave danger to Pakistan, as a Pakistani the most important thing we should realize is respect our own voices.
> 
> The February small skirmish, showcased the alert level of Pakistan Air force and their response was measurable and sufficient to let enemy know we are not to be taken lightly
> 
> My personal view , while not taking sides with anyone is that I do feel Pakistan *"is being cornered"*
> That statement has some reality and realism to it which is not false.
> 
> So let me understand the argument
> 
> a) Is Mirage a viable platform , which can be further enhanced to cheetah level?
> b) We need to opt for newer models from China , likely J10 C or Twin Engine birds China is mass producing
> 
> We "economic" strength does comes into play when it comes to National Defence Needs
> 
> *Arguments which are inline with our Financial Strength
> *
> Looking at what KAMRA , mirage rebuild factory has achieved , we can be assured that any additional Mirage will also under go the same magical transformation as any other birds and it would be cost effective, so from a financial stand point this option is great
> 
> a) We know we can upgrade the radars
> b) We know we can load up weapons on the birds
> c) These birds can play a vital role for A2G missions
> 
> No harm if we get them
> 
> *
> Arguments for Modernization*
> 
> Well we need to move with the times , regardless of our upgrades we need to understand we need modern generation crafts to ensure the technological difference does not becomes too immense during the War time
> 
> 
> J10D Chinese birds , are modern iteration of flying machines which is worth considering
> Sweedish Gripens are a modest single Engine , technologically loaded crafts which are also great European option
> F16 if we can get used C/D models sure great plus
> F16V promise is just a promise at present
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it was me I would have ordered *100 J10C* already


its j-10 sir not halwa puri order for breakfast

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## gangsta_rap

MastanKhan said:


> You incompetent kids are the true enemies of pakistan.



Thank the almighty that most folks from your day didnt think like you.


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## LKJ86

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


>


The picture is J-10B.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

My inexperienced eyes can't yet tell difference between B and D platform


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## LKJ86

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> My inexperienced eyes can't yet tell difference between B and D platform


New J-10Cs are equipped with WS-10 engines now, but maybe there is still no so-called J-10D.

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## aliyusuf

LKJ86 said:


> New J-10Cs are equipped with WS-10 engines now, but maybe there is still no so-called J-10D.


So how do you tell a J-10B apart from a J-10C by just looking at it?

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## Code_Geass

aliyusuf said:


> So how do you tell a J-10B apart from a J-10C by just looking at it?


I read there air inlet are a bit different


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## aliyusuf

Both have DSI inlets ... difficult to spot any difference


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## LKJ86

aliyusuf said:


> So how do you tell a J-10B apart from a J-10C by just looking at it?


The mass-production version of J-10B, the prototype of J-10C, and the mass-production version of J-10C from up to down:

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## Syed1.

Wonder if PAC has the capability to develop an in-house version of the Mirage for strike missions. I know they can do near-complete overhaul of our aging Mirages, surely that must have helped them get know-how of building a similar indigenous jet. Could also factor in some learnings from the Thunder program. 

However, running parallel R&D programs for multiple jets needs plenty of money, a luxury we do not have.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

After operating on plane for 40-50 years I would have imagined we could manufacture 100% of craft , it would have been an ideal circumstance

However we still need engines , and certain parts
That is why hopes have been high on the JF-17 Thunder that we can master 100% of manufacturing inhouses

It makes more sense to induct few squadrons of J10 Series and train new generation of Engineers to maintain this platform


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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for an excellent post---POST OF THE MONTH and people like you get banned---amazing---.
> 
> Army has that and so does the navy---. It means then that there is an issue with the fly boys---.



Thanks MK. There is a lot a good analysis could bring out. You and Munir bhai and a few others are the pioneers of solid analysis. Kids like me grew up reading your posts, and Munir's posts on keypub. Back in the early 2000s. At that time the level of analysis in Pak boards was p!ss poor and we looked up to places like keypub and others (like F-16.net) for the goras to show us how a civilized indepth analytical discussion is done. Then first generation of analysts came.
Now, in terms of quality and quantity of analysis, we are right there on the top of any world military board out there. I still sometimes try to read chinese forums and keypub but they are now shadows of what they used to be.
This tells me that we are rising as a civilization and a nation. And the West is either declining or not managing to keep their lead.
Now, if we can feed this generation of defense and militarily savvy generations into the military, it will create a renaissance.
Much like how the Mirages actually created the condition for the JFT to come out.
Thanks @MystryMan The standoff weapons we have come in different modes, including fully auto modes. These modes were developed by our very own @denel ; )

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Thanks MK. There is a lot a good analysis could bring out. You and Munir bhai and a few others are the pioneers of solid analysis. Kids like me grew up reading your posts, and Munir's posts on keypub. Back in the early 2000s. At that time the level of analysis in Pak boards was p!ss poor and we looked up to places like keypub and others (like F-16.net) for the goras to show us how a civilized indepth analytical discussion is done. Then first generation of analysts came.
> Now, in terms of quality and quantity of analysis, we are right there on the top of any world military board out there. I still sometimes try to read chinese forums and keypub but they are now shadows of what they used to be.
> This tells me that we are rising as a civilization and a nation. And the West is either declining or not managing to keep their lead.
> Now, if we can feed this generation of defense and militarily savvy generations into the military, it will create a renaissance.
> Much like how the Mirages actually created the condition for the JFT to come out.
> Thanks @MystryMan The standoff weapons we have come in different modes, including fully auto modes. These modes were developed by our very own @denel ; )



Hi,

Defense is a ruthless and vicious business. Your nations integrity and very being is at stake.

But to convey this message to pakistanis—-who have grown up on lies to look good all their lives—-is not an easy task.

When a nation as a whole lies just to look good and it transcends into defense—-it is the begining of doom for the country.

The next issue is a lack of knowledge. What they are getting from their uncles and cousins is a word from god. 

Just notice this amazing fact—-we are now inches away from a full blooded war—-and most title holders are counting on machinery that we may have 3 to 5 years from now.

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## mshan44



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## Syed1.

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 576749


Lovely, the French sure know how to make a good jet.


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## nomi007

*The Egyptian Horus program

The modernization of the Mirage 5SDE tactical fighters around 2010*


















*Marketing publications from the manufacturer:*
Sagem (Safran) proposes modernization solutions incorporating the best current technologies to upgrade the operational capabilities of the world’s combat aircraft to the state of the art.

In addition to complete avionics overhauls as part of combat aircraft upgrade programs, Sagem’s modernization capabilities also encompass inertial navigation equipment, visible/infrared optronics, and onboard and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively).
























































The company is retrofitting 23 Egyptian Mirage 5s in the Horus program.

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> *The Egyptian Horus program
> 
> The modernization of the Mirage 5SDE tactical fighters around 2010*
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> *Marketing publications from the manufacturer:*
> Sagem (Safran) proposes modernization solutions incorporating the best current technologies to upgrade the operational capabilities of the world’s combat aircraft to the state of the art.
> 
> In addition to complete avionics overhauls as part of combat aircraft upgrade programs, Sagem’s modernization capabilities also encompass inertial navigation equipment, visible/infrared optronics, and onboard and ground-based digital processing systems (for weapon systems and mission planning systems, respectively).
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> The company is retrofitting 23 Egyptian Mirage 5s in the Horus program.


23 means Atleast 2 new sdq for PAF

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## denel

Syed1. said:


> Lovely, the French sure know how to make a good jet.


yes but Isreal and South Africa know how to evolve it further to next generation.

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## Deltadart

So what is stopping us from acquiring Swiss Mirages? I believe Swiss had around 60 fighters plus spares etc.

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## Signalian

*ADF-SERIALS*
*Australian & New Zealand Military Aircraft Serials & History*

*ex-RAAF Mirages in Pakistan Air Force Service*













ex-RAAF Mirage in PAF service photo album

After their retirement from service in 1987/88 forty eight RAAF Mirages were flown to Woomera for storage. They were offered for sale for A$100 million. On 15th April 1990 a contract was signed with Pakistan for fifty aircraft including ground equipment, engines, drop tanks and spares. (Pakistan Air Force project Blue Flash-V) The figure reported here was A$36 million however a number of Pakistani sources state the figure was A$27 million with the payment spread over seven years at approx. A$3.5 million per year. The ground equipment and spares package has been described as "a virtual gift". 
It should be mentioned that India was not at all happy with this deal and protested accordingly.

During October 1990 the Mirages were transported by road from Woomera to Whyalla. Two complete aircraft at RAAF Museum Point Cook (A3-13 and A3-84) were also transported as well as five incomplete examples from Darwin, Orchard Hills and Dubbo. In November 1990 they were shipped by sea from Whyalla to Karachi. From Karachi harbour they were transported on trailers to PAF Base Masroor. After some dismantling they were flown by C-130 Hercules to the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra. There at the Mirage Rebuild Factory it was discovered that these ex-RAAF Mirages were in far better condition than expected and some did not require a complete overhaul. A new 2P+ inspection was developed for the initial recovery of thirty three aircraft. Another twelve aircraft had the General Overhaul and were eventually bought into service, some fitted with zero timed wings sourced from South Africa. 
Of the fifty complete ex-RAAF Mirages acquired forty five eventually entered PAF service (details below). The remaining five were used for spares.

Thirty two single seat aircraft were later upgraded to ROSE 1 (Retrofit of Strike Element) the last one completed in June 1998. This avionics upgrade included Sagem integrated navigation/attack system, multifunction display, HOTAS, HUD, and self protection systems (RWR, chaff and flares). 
Further upgrades include Grifo-M radar and AIM-9L AAMs.
(Sources differ as to if 32 or 33 received the ROSE 1 upgrade. I believe that only 32 received the upgrade because one aircraft crashed before it could be upgraded).
The ROSE 1 Mirages (redesignated in PAF service as Mirage IIIEA) were allocated to No.7 Squadron (Bandits) at Masroor in 1996 and to the Combat Commanders School (CCS) at Mushaf in 2003

Seven dual seat aircraft (redesignated in PAF service as Mirage IIIDA) were allocated to No.22 Squadron OCU and No.5 Squadron (Falcons). 
In June 2010 No.5 Squadron re-equipped with F-16s, (new build aircraft, not the aircraft that New Zealand was to buy which also went to Pakistan).
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot.

The PAF also acquired the RAAF Mirage Photo Reconnaissance equipment and four aircraft configured in this role served with No.5 Squadron (Falcons)

In 2004 and 2007 Pakistan acquired 50 Mirages and 150 sealed engines from Libya. 
These aircraft were to be converted to components to extend the life of the PAF Mirage fleet including the ex-RAAF examples.
However as with the ex-RAAF many Libyan Mirages are flying again.

In 2009 the Mirage IIIEAs started to be equipped with an in-flight refuelling probe, 90-583 serving as the prototype. PAF acquired four Ilyushin Il-78PMidas tanker aircraft from Ukraine and plan to equip 30 Mirages for in-flight refuelling .

In 2016 the upgraded Mirage IIIEAs began flying with Ra'ad Air Launched Cruise Missiles which are believed to be capable of carrying a nuclear warhead

There have been many losses of PAF Mirages. The list isn't all that specific about which model was involved. Only two are confirmed as ex-RAAF with only one identified. There are probably others lost. (Indeed 90-610 ex-A3-110 was lost in March 2015 and has not yet been included on the list)

With the Pakistan being the world's largest current user of Mirages (200+ aircraft purchased from France, Australia, Lebanon, Spain and Libya), holding an extensive spare parts inventory and operating a dedicated Mirage Rebuild Factory the ex RAAF Dassault and GAF built Mirages look like they will still be flying well past their 50th birthdays. A PAF official said that a Mirage needs to undergo overhaul after every ten to twelve years or after every 1800 to 2400 flight hours. A Mirage is completely overhauled in about one year.
They are expected to remain in PAF service until replaced by the JF-17 Thunder in 5 to 10 years time


*SUMMARY*

50 complete aircraft exported by sea, (48 from Whyalla, South Australia and 2 from Geelong, Victoria)

40 single seat Mirage IIIO stored at Woomera 
A3-2, -5, -6, -9, -10, -11, -12, -15, -17, -19, -21, -22, -23, -24, -25, -27, -31, -33, -34, -35, 
-38, -39, -49, -53, -54, -56, -60, -62, -65, -68, -71, -73, -81, -83, -86, -87, -88, -93, -96, -99

8 dual seat Mirage IIID stored at Woomera
A3-101, -103, -104, -108, -110, -111, -112, -113. 7 into service, 1 used for spares.

Plus 2 complete single seat Mirage IIIO taken from RAAF Museum Point Cook A3-13, -84 where moved by road and then shipped by sea from Geelong, Victoria.

32 eventually upgraded to ROSE 1 standard, 1 crashed prior to ROSE 1 upgrade. 4 Photo Recon. conversions, 5 used for spares.

Also 5 incomplete aircraft/fuselages; A3-7 (Darwin), -48, -78 (Dubbo), -57, -91 (Orchard Hills)

*Pakistan Air Force serials.*
Single seat; 90-5xx, were xx is the last two digits of the RAAF serial. 
(I have been informed some may have had 89-5xx but have seen no evidence of that myself)

Dual seat; 90-6xx were xx was the last two digits of the RAAF serial 
(Not to be confused with the six dual seat Mirages with 8xx serials. These are ex-French Air Force IIIBEs. Their full PAF serial is 96-8xx were the xx is the last two digits of the construction number ie 96-860 is c/n 260, 96-875 is c/n 275 and so on.)


As can be appreciated PAF information is scarce and the following list is derived from publicly available information. 
Any further information, corrections and comments are welcome. 
Please contact us at question@adf-serials.com.au






*Pakistan
Serial* *RAAFSerial* *Aircraft Type* *Aircraft History*
90-502 A3-2 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Our photo shows it initially retained its orange ARDU scheme with PAF serials applied 
Repainted in camoflague


90-503 ? Mirage III There is an unidentified Mirage III marked 503 as gate guard at Masroor Air Force Base
It cannot be A3-3 which remains at Fighter World Williamtown.

90-505 A3-5 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Current status unknown



90-506 A3-6 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
16/12/2009 was on a routine training mission when it crashed into Durrab Lake, Kalar Kahar in Chakwal district (PunjabProvince) after developing a technical fault. 
The pilot ejected safely and was rescued from the lake.

N/A A3-7 Mirage IIIO Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Current status unknown.

90-509 A3-9 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
26/07/2001 crashed into mountain at 4000ft near Hub River returning to base after a night training exercise. 
Group Captain Ali Assad killed.

90-510 A3-10 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Noted in service with Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Equipped with in-flight refueling probe.
Believed to be in in service as 90-510.

90-511 A3-11 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Noted with Recce nose painted Green/Grey on at MRF Kamra 2001.
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Configured for Photo Reconnaissance. Uses a different type of Recon nose than that used by the RAAF
Believed to be in service as 90-511

90-512 A3-12 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Exercise Bright Star (Egypt) 10/2009
Participant in Exercise Indus Viper II against Turkish F-16s 03/2013
Believed to be in service as 90-512




90-513 A3-13 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Entered PAF service retaining RAAF camouflage scheme 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in in service as 90-513,

90-515 A3-15 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in in service as 90-515

90-517 A3-17 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Current status unknown

90-519 A3-19 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in in service as 90-519.

90-521 A3-21 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Current status unknown

90-522 A3-22 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Entered PAF service in camouflage scheme
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in in service as 90-522.
 

90-523 A3-23 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
7/04/2004 noted damaged at Masroor AB, Pakistan, stored and used for spares.


90-524 A3-24 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in in service as 90-524.

90-525 A3-25 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Equipped with in-flight refueling probe
Believed to be in service as 90-525

90-527 A3-27 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Participant in Exercise Indus Viper II against Turkish F-16s 03/2013
Believed to be in service as 90-527


90-531 A3-31 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Falcon Air Meet 2010 at Azraq Royal Jordanian Air Base. 
Won bombing competition against aircraft from Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, and the U.S. Navy and Air Force.
Believed to be in service as 90-531

90-533 A3-33 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Initially retained the silver with red scallop RAAF 75 Squadron Mirage Retirement scheme 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Equipped with in-flight refuelling probe.
Believed to be in service as 90-533
 

90-534 A3-34 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Current status unknown

90-535 A3-35 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Exercise Bright Star (Egypt) 10/2009
Believed to be in service as 90-535




90-538 A3-38 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Exercise Bright Star (Egypt) 10/2009
Participant in Falcon Air Meet 2010 at Azraq Royal Jordanian Air Base.
Noted carrying Ra'ad Air Launched Cruise Missile 2016
Believed to be in service as 90-538

90-539 A3-39 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Current status unknown

N/A A3-48 Mirage IIIO Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Fuselage noted in the storage yard of the Pakistan Air Force Museum at PAF Faisal Air Base, Karachi

90-549 A3-49 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in service as 90-549

90-553 A3-53 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Exercise Indus Viper 2008
Believed to be in service as 90-553.

90-554 A3-54 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Participant in Exercise Indus Viper II against Turkish F-16s 03/2013
Believed to be in service as 90-554

90-556 A3-56 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Current status unknown

N/A A3-57 Mirage IIIO Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Fuselage hulk at Masroor Air Force Base

90-560 A3-60 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Entered PAF service retaining RAAF blue grey scheme
Received a pair of zero timed wings from South Africa (which meant camouflaged wings on a blue grey aircraft!)
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in service as 90-560

90-562 A3-62 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Participant in Exercise Indus Viper II against Turkish F-16s 03/2013
Equipped with in-flight refuelling probe
Believed to be in service as 90-562

90-565 A3-65 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Falcon Air Meet 2010 at Azraq Royal Jordanian Air Base.
Believed to be in service as 90-565

90-568 A3-68 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in service as 90-568

90-571 A3-71 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed in service as 90-571

90-573 A3-73 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed in service as 90-573

N/A A3-78 Mirage IIIO Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Fuselage only, noted on jacks at PAF's Mirage Repair Factory 2001.
Current status unknown
90-581 A3-81 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Configured for Photo Reconnaissance.
Believed to be in service as 90-581

90-583 A3-83 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
First PAF Mirage to be fitted with refueling probe in 2009
Believed in service as 90-583

90-584 A3-84 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
Participant in Exercise Falcon Talon 02/2009
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in service as 90-584

90-586 A3-86 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Exercise Bright Star (Egypt) 10/2009
Noted carrying Ra'ad Air Launched Cruise Missile 2016
Believed to be in service as 90-586

90-587 A3-87 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Configured for Photo Reconnaissance.
Believed to be in service as 90-587

90-588 A3-88 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in service as 90-588

N/A A3-91 Mirage IIIO Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Fuselage hulk at Masroor Air Force Base

90-593 A3-93 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Current status unknown.

90-596 A3-96 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Configured for Photo Reconnaissance.
Believed to be in service as 90-596

90-599 A3-99 Mirage IIIEA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in service as 90-599
 

90-601
A3-101 Mirage IIIDA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90.
Noted in service as 90-601
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot




90-603
A3-103 Mirage IIIDA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot

90-604
A3-104 Mirage IIIDA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 
Noted in service as 90-604
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot

90-608
A3-108 Mirage IIIDA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot

90-610
A3-110 Mirage IIIDA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Served with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot
Crashed 4/03/2015 near Dera Ismail Khan.
Lightning Strike given as possible cause of crash
Air Commodore Shafqat and Flight Lieutenant Sohaib killed

90-611
A3-111 Mirage IIIDA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 . 
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot

90-612



A3-112 Mirage IIIDA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Our photo shows it initially retained its orange ARDU scheme with PAF serial 612 applied
Repainted in camouflage 
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot

90-613
A3-113 Mirage IIIDA Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot








Video of Pakistan Air Force Mirages in Jordon

The Author of this page is Martin Edwards

Sources: www.defence.pk, www.PakistaniForces.com, www.fighterpilotuniversity.com  www.militaryphotos.net/forums, www.pafwallpapers.com, www.paffalcons.com,www.pac.org.pk , 


Emails; Henrik Gram Elsturp; Ansat Mangat



Updated 24th October 2018


It is our policy to only show historical events, no current operational information will be displayed on this website.
"The ADF-Serials team give permission to use the content of this page, excluding images, providing that it contains an acknowledgement to the adf-serials team and any other listed sources."






*Hosted by:*
Integrity Technical Solutions

http://www.adf-serials.com.au/3a3-Pakistan.htm

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Does anyone know about the status of the IIIEP and IIIRP versions after the No.5 took on the F-16's ? Doesn't really make sense to keep the EP in service with the capabilities the ROSE I airframes have but what about the RP variants? Are they still needed for photo-recce ops and are they capable of carrying air-to-ground munitions in any capacity?

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## Myth_buster_1

Deltadart said:


> So what is stopping us from acquiring Swiss Mirages? I believe Swiss had around 60 fighters plus spares etc.



They can also withdraw $100 million from zardari's swiss account and give PAF 60 Mirages.

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## Deltadart

Myth_buster_1 said:


> They can also withdraw $100 million from zardari's swiss account and give PAF 60 Mirages.


I have no objections, not like it's his hard earned money. . We know the sources.

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## AsifIjaz

For maintainance purpose.. Which countries have stored units of mirages which can be acquired by paf to complemeng, support or maintenance of current fleet.
I know that swiss have them but dont know the numbers ..
Does australia still stores the the few units that pakistan didn't opt for..
What about any other country. Any one knows the details???

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

http://pafwallpapers.com/blog/2011/11/delta-legacy/

A good read for anyone interested in the status/history of our Mirages.

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## Bratva

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Does anyone know about the status of the IIIEP and IIIRP versions after the No.5 took on the F-16's ? Doesn't really make sense to keep the EP in service with the capabilities the ROSE I airframes have but what about the RP variants? Are they still needed for photo-recce ops and are they capable of carrying air-to-ground munitions in any capacity?



Ever since we got DB-110 Recon pods and Sniper ATP, I suppose mirages are not being used for photo recce ops. PAF chief disclosed in Alan warnes interview it take a day to extract data from Mirage photo recce pods and convert it into meaningful and actionable data. Which is not entirely acceptable in today's fast moving battlefield. DB-110 take high resolution pics and the data it gathers can be converted into actionable intelligence in real time as it is sending data to ground station via datalink in real time







Goodrich Corporation has been awarded a US$72 million contract to equip Lockheed-Martin F-16 fighters of the Pakistan Air Force with five DB-110 dual-band (visual/IR) reconnaissance pods. The systems will be delivered with two fixed ground stations and one mobile ground station, each equipped with one datalink receiving system (a total of four ground receiving datalinks will be delivered).

The Pakistan Air Force plans to augment the new capability by establishing a ‘reconnaissance fusion center’, the current contract funds the initial study of such facility to be provided by Goodrich. The U.S. Air Force is assigning a private U.S. company to train Pakistani operators and technicians in supporting the new systems.





The Goodrich DB-110 EO/IR reconnaissance pod operating on Poland Air Force F-16 aircraft. Photo: Goodric
The Pakistani air force is already operating two similar recce pods, which will now be modified with suitable datalinks to match the new ground stations. According to the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency ex-U.S. Air Force F-16A/B fighters transferred to the Pakistani Air Force in 2008 were prepared to operate reconnaissance pods. No such capability was mentioned for the new F-16 Block 52 aircraft although it is likely that the pods will also be employed by these fighters.




The Goodrich DB-110 recce pod is operational with the Polish and Hellenic NATO Air Forces. Recent sales were approved for the UAE, Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan and Oman.
The DB-110 operates autonomously on the F-16, controlled by the pod’s reconnaissance management system. Imagery can be viewed on the F-16’s cockpit video display, enabling the pilot to verify targets and conduct tasks such as battle damage assessment. The real-time display also gives the pilot or aircrew more flexibility selecting alternate route to a selected target or seeking out targets of opportunity.

https://defense-update.com/20110121_db-110_pakistan.html

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## khanasifm

Comparing 60/70technology with 2010?


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## GriffinsRule

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Does anyone know about the status of the IIIEP and IIIRP versions after the No.5 took on the F-16's ? Doesn't really make sense to keep the EP in service with the capabilities the ROSE I airframes have but what about the RP variants? Are they still needed for photo-recce ops and are they capable of carrying air-to-ground munitions in any capacity?


Status of Mirage IIIEP is that of the original 18, only 1 or 2 left in service. Rest crashed or taken out of service. Similarly, of the original 13 RPs, 6 might still be operational in other squadrons while 7 have crashed over the years. RPs can be used in ground attack role just like any other Mirage 5

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## Shah_Deu

https://sputniknews.com/military/20...ter-jets-from-egypt-amid-build-up-with-india/





*Pakistan to Buy 36 Mirage V Fighter Jets from Egypt Amid Build-Up With India*

New Delhi (Sputnik): The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation.

Pakistan's Air Force is expected to seal a contract with Egypt to purchase upgraded Dassault Mirage-V combat aircraft. The two countries have been negotiating the contract for years and now the final contract may see the light of day because the Pakistan Air Force wanted these fighter jets to strengthen its existing squadron of jets.

"Negotiations to purchase 36 such aircraft almost reached the final stage", one of the person familiar with the negotiations said. These jets were retired from service by the Egyptian Air Force long ago, so Pakistan will have tp refurbish them before pressing the aircraft into service.

The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation, like in the past when it has upgraded dozens of Mirage-III/Vs with Italian radars and other electronics at the Mirage Rebuild Factory, established by the Pakistani Air Force in 1978.

Pakistan's Air Force has been operating Mirage combat jets for the last five decades and despite the induction of the JF-17, the force planned to put on hold the retirement of the Mirage in the absence of better weaponry. Over the past five decades, Pakistan has purchased nearly 150 Mirage III/V fighters. The force had in the past also bought retired Mirage-III from Australia.

The Mirage V is a dedicated ground-attack variant of the Mirage III, with greater space for fuel, in place of avionics. The Dassault-made Mirage jet received major attention earlier in February when the Indian Air Force carried out an aerial strike using the Mirage 2000 fighter jet to destroy alleged terror infrastructure in Balakot inside Pakistan. Nevertheless, the only common feature of the Mirage V and the Indian Air Force's Mirage 2000 is their "delta wing" design.

The relationship between the two nuclear-armed countries once again nosedived in August after New Delhi decided to revoke the special status granted to the disputed Kashmir region. While India called the decision an "internal affair", Pakistan has argued at several international fora including at United Nations that it is a violation of bilateral agreements and the Vienna Convention.

Pakistan's military has vowed to go to "any extent" to provide justice to the Kashmiripeople and it has deployed hundreds of elite commandos near the Line of Control - a de facto border that separates the Kashmir region between the two countries. The Pakistani Air Force also deployed its frontline jets at the forward air base Skardu near Ladakh last month to ward off any Balakot-like strike by India.

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## denel

Shah_Deu said:


> https://sputniknews.com/military/20...ter-jets-from-egypt-amid-build-up-with-india/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan to Buy 36 Mirage V Fighter Jets from Egypt Amid Build-Up With India*
> 
> New Delhi (Sputnik): The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation.
> 
> Pakistan's Air Force is expected to seal a contract with Egypt to purchase upgraded Dassault Mirage-V combat aircraft. The two countries have been negotiating the contract for years and now the final contract may see the light of day because the Pakistan Air Force wanted these fighter jets to strengthen its existing squadron of jets.
> 
> "Negotiations to purchase 36 such aircraft almost reached the final stage", one of the person familiar with the negotiations said. These jets were retired from service by the Egyptian Air Force long ago, so Pakistan will have tp refurbish them before pressing the aircraft into service.
> 
> The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation, like in the past when it has upgraded dozens of Mirage-III/Vs with Italian radars and other electronics at the Mirage Rebuild Factory, established by the Pakistani Air Force in 1978.
> 
> Pakistan's Air Force has been operating Mirage combat jets for the last five decades and despite the induction of the JF-17, the force planned to put on hold the retirement of the Mirage in the absence of better weaponry. Over the past five decades, Pakistan has purchased nearly 150 Mirage III/V fighters. The force had in the past also bought retired Mirage-III from Australia.
> 
> The Mirage V is a dedicated ground-attack variant of the Mirage III, with greater space for fuel, in place of avionics. The Dassault-made Mirage jet received major attention earlier in February when the Indian Air Force carried out an aerial strike using the Mirage 2000 fighter jet to destroy alleged terror infrastructure in Balakot inside Pakistan. Nevertheless, the only common feature of the Mirage V and the Indian Air Force's Mirage 2000 is their "delta wing" design.
> 
> The relationship between the two nuclear-armed countries once again nosedived in August after New Delhi decided to revoke the special status granted to the disputed Kashmir region. While India called the decision an "internal affair", Pakistan has argued at several international fora including at United Nations that it is a violation of bilateral agreements and the Vienna Convention.
> 
> Pakistan's military has vowed to go to "any extent" to provide justice to the Kashmiripeople and it has deployed hundreds of elite commandos near the Line of Control - a de facto border that separates the Kashmir region between the two countries. The Pakistani Air Force also deployed its frontline jets at the forward air base Skardu near Ladakh last month to ward off any Balakot-like strike by India.



Let us see what mods will take place on the EA M5's. Definitely the nose cones must go for GrifoM radar.

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## aliyusuf

denel said:


> Let us see what mods will take place on the EA M5's. Definitely the nose cones must go for GrifoM radar.


If these are the Horus upgrades, then don't they already have Thales RC400?

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## denel

aliyusuf said:


> If these are the Horus upgrades, then don't they already have Thales RC400?


No idea what is working and what is not. voetstoet as we say here. 'As is'

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## Dazzler



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 577965


Even after 50 years this gentle man is still very handsome.

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## denel

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 577965


they all need to undergo good paint works

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## syed_yusuf

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 577965


I just love it magestic look

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## Aamir Hussain

One of the most beautiful planes ever to fly

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## Dazzler

denel said:


> they all need to undergo good paint works



Theyve undergone more paint works than my dad's residence

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## denel

Dazzler said:


> Theyve undergone more paint works than my dad's residence


yes and paint is not even adhering to it anymore.



Dazzler said:


> Theyve undergone more paint works than my dad's residence


I always reckoned M3's were like my old girlfriend you can never forget and you know they always are there.

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## Path-Finder



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## HRK

this does not make any sense ..... 




Mirage Rebuilt Factory

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## The Eagle

HRK said:


> this does not make any sense .....
> View attachment 578331
> 
> Mirage Rebuilt Factory



Dassault Certified Engineer.

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## HRK

The Eagle said:


> Dassault Certified Engineer.


may be but why Rafale silhouette ...

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## The Eagle

HRK said:


> may be but why Rafale silhouette ...



Dassault use it for MRF engineers are certified by Dassault hence, Rafale Silhouette. If I am not wrong... anyone can correct. Rafale is like a symbol of Dassault in this case.

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## GriffinsRule

Path-Finder said:


>


Thats a good quality video


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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> this does not make any sense .....
> View attachment 578331
> 
> Mirage Rebuilt Factory


maybe he fiddles with some rafales in arabia!


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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> maybe he fiddles with some rafales in arabia!


hahahahaha ..... but I don't think this will be case


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## Foxtrot Delta

The Americans are offering or were offering F-21 (rebranded) F-16 to india to be locally produced inside india.
if pakistan had money or an intention we could easily move F-21 manufacturing into pakistan. they need the money and it seems they have said Good bye to its production lines if we someone is willing to pay.. 

but then again money is a probelm. so i guess keeping what we already have for next 5-7 years flying with used parts for mirage III aircraft seems the only option. along with making loads of cruise missiles and other types of missiles which can hit high value targets like, Sam sites, runways and factories.. 

perhaps if me manage pakistan's economy in next 7 years we could look at chinese replacement for JH-7 aircraft or look at replacements for Su-30 aircraft all around the world. if we have money by then we could even co-develop a tactical bomber with china or turkey.

till then it seems mirages are here to stay. and instead of loosing good pilots for bombing runs if war breaks out i would prefer drones and missiles to be first choice of battle. 

throwing men at them is very expensive. throw missiles first.


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## Signalian

Shah_Deu said:


> https://sputniknews.com/military/20...ter-jets-from-egypt-amid-build-up-with-india/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan to Buy 36 Mirage V Fighter Jets from Egypt Amid Build-Up With India*
> 
> New Delhi (Sputnik): The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation.
> 
> Pakistan's Air Force is expected to seal a contract with Egypt to purchase upgraded Dassault Mirage-V combat aircraft. The two countries have been negotiating the contract for years and now the final contract may see the light of day because the Pakistan Air Force wanted these fighter jets to strengthen its existing squadron of jets.
> 
> "Negotiations to purchase 36 such aircraft almost reached the final stage", one of the person familiar with the negotiations said. These jets were retired from service by the Egyptian Air Force long ago, so Pakistan will have tp refurbish them before pressing the aircraft into service.
> 
> The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation, like in the past when it has upgraded dozens of Mirage-III/Vs with Italian radars and other electronics at the Mirage Rebuild Factory, established by the Pakistani Air Force in 1978.
> 
> Pakistan's Air Force has been operating Mirage combat jets for the last five decades and despite the induction of the JF-17, the force planned to put on hold the retirement of the Mirage in the absence of better weaponry. Over the past five decades, Pakistan has purchased nearly 150 Mirage III/V fighters. The force had in the past also bought retired Mirage-III from Australia.
> 
> The Mirage V is a dedicated ground-attack variant of the Mirage III, with greater space for fuel, in place of avionics. The Dassault-made Mirage jet received major attention earlier in February when the Indian Air Force carried out an aerial strike using the Mirage 2000 fighter jet to destroy alleged terror infrastructure in Balakot inside Pakistan. Nevertheless, the only common feature of the Mirage V and the Indian Air Force's Mirage 2000 is their "delta wing" design.
> 
> The relationship between the two nuclear-armed countries once again nosedived in August after New Delhi decided to revoke the special status granted to the disputed Kashmir region. While India called the decision an "internal affair", Pakistan has argued at several international fora including at United Nations that it is a violation of bilateral agreements and the Vienna Convention.
> 
> Pakistan's military has vowed to go to "any extent" to provide justice to the Kashmiripeople and it has deployed hundreds of elite commandos near the Line of Control - a de facto border that separates the Kashmir region between the two countries. The Pakistani Air Force also deployed its frontline jets at the forward air base Skardu near Ladakh last month to ward off any Balakot-like strike by India.



It is worth noting that Mirage-V was involved in ground strike in IOK, a 3rd generation aircraft facing multiple 3rd Gen, 4th Gen and so called 4.5 Gen aircraft of IAF. While IAF had sent 4th gen aircraft, " claimed non upgraded" Mirage 2000 to conduct strike, PAF sent in 3rd gen aircraft, non upgraded Mirage-V, as response inside Indian territory. 

This prompted the Indian leadership to go run after a true 4.5 Gen aircraft, Rafale, because the so called 4.5 Gen aircraft SU-30 MKI was not enough to defend Indian skies. One has to wonder that if PAF is capable of using a 3rd gen aircraft with such tenacity that it strikes in Indian territory near a Brigade HQ and makes its way back successfully, then how would 4.5 gen aircraft fare in PAF's hands. If India is so hell bent on stopping purchase of a 3rd gen aircraft like Mirage-V for PAF, this is because of the fact that Mirage-V has proved itself in 2019, even being multiple decades old aircraft.

The arsenal creating "fear factor" in IAF ranks has grown instead of minimizing; F-16's are already there for which India runs around the globe to stop its sales to Pakistan, JF-17 is home-grown and the engine sales are guaranteed by China against which India cannot do much even when its one of the biggest clients of Russia and now the Mirage-V which was ticked away as "obsolete" and "old technology", has again created a headache. 

Another under-rated aircraft, F-7P and PG version, is getting replaced by JFT. The same aircraft type is called flying coffin on the other side of the border. Had this aircraft also seen combat on that fateful day, it would have shown its mark also. F-7 has modern airframes than Mirages and even with old Mirage airframes, the Mirage has not turned into a flying coffin. 

India and IAF admitted their defeat indirectly to a 3rd gen aircraft, Mirage-V, when the big words for Rafale were spoken, considering Rafale as a savior for next conflict. One would ask again, why wasn't Tejas mentioned instead of Rafale ? Come to think of it, Pakistan and PAF mention JFT proudly at every opportunity. JFT is considered to be the backbone and mainstay of PAF in coming years, Is Tejas considered the same ? No. 

I wouldn't be surprised if PAF doesnt induct any new type of aircraft apart from new/old versions of F-16's and newer block of JF-17's, since PAF is moving towards in house production of Azm project.

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## ice_man

Foxtrot Delta said:


> The Americans are offering or were offering F-21 (rebranded) F-16 to india to be locally produced inside india.
> if pakistan had money or an intention we could easily move F-21 manufacturing into pakistan. they need the money and it seems they have said Good bye to its production lines if we someone is willing to pay..
> 
> but then again money is a probelm. so i guess keeping what we already have for next 5-7 years flying with used parts for mirage III aircraft seems the only option. along with making loads of cruise missiles and other types of missiles which can hit high value targets like, Sam sites, runways and factories..
> 
> perhaps if me manage pakistan's economy in next 7 years we could look at chinese replacement for JH-7 aircraft or look at replacements for Su-30 aircraft all around the world. if we have money by then we could even co-develop a tactical bomber with china or turkey.
> 
> till then it seems mirages are here to stay. and instead of loosing good pilots for bombing runs if war breaks out i would prefer drones and missiles to be first choice of battle.
> 
> throwing men at them is very expensive. throw missiles first.



Brother to cut it short. Even if you had the money and will to have a manufacturing plant for F16s. 

USA would never let you manufacture it because of China paranoia. They would be worried china would get to know their secrets. 

Hence for now be happy with old used Mirage IIIs and Mirage Vs. 


What we can do is ask for used F16s from other nations like probably european nations. Just how we did with the Jordanian F16s.


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## Tps43

messiach said:


> Onboard indian MKI.
> 
> 
> @Tps43
> 
> 
> No more smart - getting upto 60.


The ones in musaf kamra and masroor

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## Path-Finder

Signalian said:


> It is worth noting that Mirage-V was involved in ground strike in IOK, a 3rd generation aircraft facing multiple 3rd Gen, 4th Gen and so called 4.5 Gen aircraft of IAF. While IAF had sent 4th gen aircraft, " claimed non upgraded" Mirage 2000 to conduct strike, PAF sent in 3rd gen aircraft, non upgraded Mirage-V, as response inside Indian territory.
> 
> This prompted the Indian leadership to go run after a true 4.5 Gen aircraft, Rafale, because the so called 4.5 Gen aircraft SU-30 MKI was not enough to defend Indian skies. One has to wonder that if PAF is capable of using a 3rd gen aircraft with such tenacity that it strikes in Indian territory near a Brigade HQ and makes its way back successfully, then how would 4.5 gen aircraft fare in PAF's hands. If India is so hell bent on stopping purchase of a 3rd gen aircraft like Mirage-V for PAF, this is because of the fact that Mirage-V has proved itself in 2019, even being multiple decades old aircraft.
> 
> The arsenal creating "fear factor" in IAF ranks has grown instead of minimizing; F-16's are already there for which India runs around the globe to stop its sales to Pakistan, JF-17 is home-grown and the engine sales are guaranteed by China against which India cannot do much even when its one of the biggest clients of Russia and now the Mirage-V which was ticked away as "obsolete" and "old technology", has again created a headache.
> 
> Another under-rated aircraft, F-7P and PG version, is getting replaced by JFT. The same aircraft type is called flying coffin on the other side of the border. Had this aircraft also seen combat on that fateful day, it would have shown its mark also. F-7 has modern airframes than Mirages and even with old Mirage airframes, the Mirage has not turned into a flying coffin.
> 
> India and IAF admitted their defeat indirectly to a 3rd gen aircraft, Mirage-V, when the big words for Rafale were spoken, considering Rafale as a savior for next conflict. One would ask again, why wasn't Tejas mentioned instead of Rafale ? Come to think of it, Pakistan and PAF mention JFT proudly at every opportunity. JFT is considered to be the backbone and mainstay of PAF in coming years, Is Tejas considered the same ? No.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if PAF doesnt induct any new type of aircraft apart from new/old versions of F-16's and newer block of JF-17's, since PAF is moving towards in house production of Azm project.



I hope it doesn't irritate the JH7 party, no pun intended or offence meant. 

I think Mirage will be around a lot longer because its utility is not surpassed yet. The paranoia coupled with the propaganda by indians is now muted very well.

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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> I think Mirage will be around a lot longer because its utility is not surpassed yet. The paranoia coupled with the propaganda by indians is now muted very well.


the thing which people need to remember that our Mirage fleet is undergoing for another complete overhaul since last year (source links: 1, 2) _which will make Mirage jets to perform duties for at least 7-8 more years,_ so all those Mirage jet which will receive the last overhaul this time will remain active with PAF till _2027-2028_

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## khanasifm

Complete overhaul last 11-18?years depending on number of hours flown per year paf came up with mini overhaul for half the time and cost of course OEM helped per paf latest history book

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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> Complete overhaul last 11-18?years depending on number of hours flown per year paf came up with mini overhaul for half the time and cost of course OEM helped per paf latest history book


12 years on average but as this will be the fifth major overhaul which mean after this overhaul number of available flying hours will be less than the previous major overhaul, secondly we are manufacturing 50 JF-17 in 3 years time (on average 16 per year) so in 6 years we would have +100 JF-17 (blk-3 and possibly blk-4) which should be enough to replace the Mirage fleet ....

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## CHI RULES

HRK said:


> 12 years on average but as this will be the fifth major overhaul which mean after this overhaul number of available flying hours will be less than the previous major overhaul, secondly we are manufacturing 50 JF-17 in 3 years time (on average 16 per year) so in 6 years we would have +100 JF-17 (blk-3 and possibly blk-4) which should be enough to replace the Mirage fleet ....



Sir, don't you think that even JF17 block 3 may not match the endurance and payload of Mirages, so it shall be better to get any heavy next gen jet for deep penetration missions even before realization of Project Azm.


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## HRK

CHI RULES said:


> Sir, don't you think that even JF17 block 3 may not match the endurance and payload of Mirages,


just compare the specifications of Mirage and JF-17 payload and endurance, you will have your answer

BTW JF-17 in anti-shipping role have more range than Mirage


CHI RULES said:


> so it shall be better to get any heavy next gen jet for deep penetration missions even before realization of Project Azm


Heavies will be a welcome a addition in PAF but First you need to explain how deep do you want to go in India ....???

secondary question Why fighter jet should be preferred over SOW and Cruise missiles to attack targets located deep enough in India .... ???

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## CHI RULES

HRK said:


> just compare the specifications of Mirage and JF-17 payload and endurance, you will have your answer
> 
> BTW JF-17 in anti-shipping role have more range than Mirage
> 
> Heavies will be a welcome a addition in PAF but First you need to explain how deep do you want to go in India ....???
> 
> secondary question Why fighter jet should be preferred over SOW and Cruise missiles to attack targets located deep enough in India .... ???



Thank for your reply, however one should also keep in mind the Indian near future SAM acquisitions as they shall make it difficult for long range attacks to be effective enough to target a particular site. The 5 th gen jet suggested by me as it shall have better chance to penetrate the defenses and launch the missiles to target farther targets as well as can survive itself.

As for deep penetration we may have to attack certain Indian targets at 1500-2000KM.


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## HRK

CHI RULES said:


> The 5 th gen jet suggested by me as it shall have better chance to penetrate the defenses and launch the missiles to target farther targets as well as can survive itself


I have not made a comment about 5 gen in my post .....


CHI RULES said:


> As for deep penetration we may have to attack certain Indian targets at 1500-2000KM


for that range ballistic missiles will be used ....no fighter jet will go that deep in India

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> this does not make any sense .....
> View attachment 578331
> 
> Mirage Rebuilt Factory



here he is again! rafale on his badge.

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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> 12 years on average but as this will be the fifth major overhaul which mean after this overhaul number of available flying hours will be less than the previous major overhaul, secondly we are manufacturing 50 JF-17 in 3 years time (on average 16 per year) so in 6 years we would have +100 JF-17 (blk-3 and possibly blk-4) which should be enough to replace the Mirage fleet ....


Assuming thag does happen
Seems rate is slower for block 3 per some people posts and their is some latency for block 3


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## HRK

Path-Finder said:


> here he is again! rafale on his badge.


someone should post these pics on Indian forums in such a suggestive manner that he is one of the engineers trained for Qatari air force and than enjoy the show .....



ziaulislam said:


> Assuming thag does happen
> Seems rate is slower for block 3 per some people posts and their is some latency for block 3


just listen the latest program of Public news on JF-17, some Blk-III air frame are under production same was reported earlier as well in a Interview of I think Chief Designer ....

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## Syed1.

HRK said:


> just listen the latest program of Public news on JF-17, some Blk-III air frame are under production same was reported earlier as well in a Interview of I think Chief Designer ....




If first BLK 3 airframe is under production then we are WAY OFF from induction, because first one or two prototypes are built and then years of testing etc take place to find any fault or deficiencies and then the process is repeated until the jet is upto to the desired level. Only then serial production starts and jet is inducted for operational service.

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## HRK

Syed1. said:


> If first BLK 3 airframe is under production then we are WAY OFF from induction, because first one or two prototypes are built and then years of testing etc take place to find any fault or deficiencies and then the process is repeated until the jet is upto to the desired level. Only then serial production starts and jet is inducted for operational service.


changes are related to avionic not to the air frame ....

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## TsAr

HRK said:


> just compare the specifications of Mirage and JF-17 payload and endurance, you will have your answer
> 
> BTW JF-17 in anti-shipping role have more range than Mirage


Dont you think 2 Squadrons of some heavies would be a welcome addition for maritime role and to counter Indian CBG's?

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## HRK

TsAr said:


> Dont you think 2 Squadrons of some heavies would be a welcome addition for maritime role and to counter Indian CBG's?


agreed ...


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## GriffinsRule

Per the articles, MRF calendar is booked with Mirage overhauls for the next 10 years. That means those jets coming off the overhaul 10 years from now will probably serve ten additional years from that point on =)

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## Dazzler

Did you know?

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> Per the articles, MRF calendar is booked with Mirage overhauls for the next 10 years. That means those jets coming off the overhaul 10 years from now will probably serve ten additional years from that point on =)


I might be wrong but isnt overhaul for mirages due after 800 hours i.e around 7-8yrs service?


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## denel

Dazzler said:


> Did you know?


what are the aams that are now on M3/5 now?


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## Dazzler

denel said:


> what are the aams that are now on M3/5 now?




AIM-9L/M

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## denel

Dazzler said:


> AIM-9L/M


noted - wiki noted darters. but i dont think so.


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## khanasifm

Radar equipped f-7 mirage s carry Lima rest old papa model

Not sure if paf upgraded older Lima model to p-4 or p5 upgrade which means they have all aspect capability as well

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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> I might be wrong but isnt overhaul for mirages due after 800 hours i.e around 7-8yrs service?


The first two Mirage overhauls (GV1 and GV2) were done at 1800 and 2000 hours, which is around 11-14 years of flying.In mid-2000s, PAF had project the retirement of Mirages around 2015 and just carried out a mini overhaul (ground visit) instead of a full GV-3. That would let the aircraft fly for 6-7 years or around 900 hours. Then they found spares in Libya and decided to do a second mini-GV for another 900 hours which might still be going on. Mini-GV helps move planes faster back into flying service too so they are not out of commission for as long. Also looks like the capacity is just 10 aircraft at a time at MRF.
I am assuming that the current mini-GV 2 that the fleet just went through, or might still be going through will extend service into the 2025 range. Now if there are additional source of parts acquired from Egypt, it might get a mini-GV 3 as well and we are looking at retaining some Mirages through early 2030s.

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## khanasifm

Mirage fuselage has 8000 hours life and wings about 2200 plus so it can go on till ...

Wings are refurbished after 2200 hours ur all ribs /spars are inspected and cracked one replaced

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## Adam_Khan

denel said:


> what are the aams that are now on M3/5 now?



Grifo equipped Mirages carry AIM.9L's, the rest still carry AIM.9P's.

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## denel

Adam_Khan said:


> Grifo equipped Mirages carry AIM.9L's, the rest still carry AIM.9P's.


Thank you. Given Grifo M radars, one would have thought a smaller BVR aam was doable.

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## mshan44



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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> Per the articles, MRF calendar is booked with Mirage overhauls for the next 10 years. That means those jets coming off the overhaul 10 years from now will probably serve ten additional years from that point on =)


Simply means 2035+ atleast
Seem mirages are going to stay for till AZM comes on-line 
Acquiring eygptian mirages

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> Simply means 2035+ atleast
> Seem mirages are going to stay for till AZM comes on-line
> Acquiring eygptian mirages


My lord... that long.

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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> My lord... that long.


In absence of f16s, j10s this was expected

Unless used f16s door opens or PAF decides on another plateform, this will be the case

New f16 wont come USA have realized they have too many sticks they can use & carrots arent needed especially since indian strong lobbying...if taiwan couldn't get f16s till trump stepped in we shouldnt expect it either ..

The f7s will go first soon, 
followed by non updated mirages(which will be canabalized) by around 2022ish
Followed by F7PGs 2025ish(seeing they are going through life extension now)
followed by mirages rose in the end 
PAF will get to 250 thunders around 2030(if they Decide to go beyond 180)

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## Quwa

denel said:


> My lord... that long.


That or the PAF really loves the Mirages and will try keeping them around in a very specialized role (i.e. nuclear delivery).

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> In absence of f16s, j10s this was expected
> 
> Unless used f16s door opens or PAF decides on another plateform, this will be the case
> 
> New f16 wont come USA have realized they have too many sticks they can use & carrots arent needed especially since indian strong lobbying...if taiwan couldn't get f16s till trump stepped in we shouldnt expect it either ..
> 
> The f7s will go first soon,
> followed by non updated mirages(which will be canabalized) by around 2022ish
> Followed by F7PGs 2025ish(seeing they are going through life extension now)
> followed by mirages rose in the end
> PAF will get to 250 thunders around 2030(if they Decide to go beyond 180)



Pakistan desperately in need of 150 decent 4 generation planes. Our choices are limited to JF-17 block 3 /(block 4 if planned). J-16/SU-35 and used F-16s (which USA was about to approve in July 2019, on hold now).

180 F-7s can’t be replaced by 2022. We will be lucky if we can replace them by 2025, PG after that. All Mirage should be gone between 2030 and 2035.


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## ziaulislam

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan desperately in need of 150 decent 4 generation planes. Our choices are limited to JF-17 block 3 /(block 4 if planned). J-16/SU-35 and used F-16s (which USA was about to approve in July 2019, on hold now).
> 
> 180 F-7s can’t be replaced by 2022. We will be lucky if we can replace them by 2025, PG after that. All Mirage should be gone between 2030 and 2035.


only 1 sq of f7 remains, they are almost all replaced.
next in line are mirages used(2-3 squadrons)
than PGs(3 squadrons)
and rose (2-3 squadrons)




no. 14 also got jf-17
no. 18 is the last f-7 squardon

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## mshan44

*Mirage IIIRP with special tail art celebrating 50 years of service in PAF



*​

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## air marshal

OC COBRAS SQUADRON


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## Code_Geass

I thought he was on saab not mirages


air marshal said:


> OC COBRAS SQUADRON


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 579243


I have been seeing these Mirages with Pilot photos since the 70s,even as i am writing these images are still bringing immense pride and joy with words i cannot comprehend.


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## khanasifm

Former as gp capt are not sqn Commanders May have been at the time or former commander


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## GriffinsRule

Oldie but a goodie. Pic from 2005 in France of the PAF Mirage 5EF. Notice the missile? Not the one on the wing tip =P

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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Oldie but a goodie. Pic from 2005 in France of the PAF Mirage 5EF. Notice the missile? Not the one on the wing tip =P
> 
> 
> View attachment 579398



It’s not wingtip but original Matra 550 launcher was pushed right to create more space /clearance between missile and droptanka etc inner pylon 

Also displayed were two French guided bombs under plane ie centerline pylons

Not sure why paf did not go with Grifo5 meant for mirage 5 and only Grifo 3 for mirage 3


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## GriffinsRule

Yes not the wingtip ... but I was trying to direct to the other missile under the aircraft which is not the Matra 550


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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes not the wingtip ... but I was trying to direct to the other missile under the aircraft which is not the Matra 550



Mica


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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes not the wingtip ... but I was trying to direct to the other missile under the aircraft which is not the Matra 550


Probably Magic



khanasifm said:


> Mica


It's not Mica it's Magic missles

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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> Probably Magic
> 
> 
> It's not Mica it's Magic missles


Both Magic/Marta is a same missile


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## Dazzler

GriffinsRule said:


> Oldie but a goodie. Pic from 2005 in France of the PAF Mirage 5EF. Notice the missile? Not the one on the wing tip =P
> 
> 
> View attachment 579398



Super 530D BVR








denel said:


> noted - wiki noted darters. but i dont think so.



Perhaps, but Sipri lists sd-10As for Mirages as well. Too much confusion.

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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> Probably Magic
> 
> 
> It's not Mica it's Magic missles



Lying on ground under centerline station is mica


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## khanasifm

Rear fins check out

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## khanasifm




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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 579412
> 
> 
> Rear fins check out


This is Mica


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## Philip the Arab

mingle said:


> This is Mica


Lol, MICA isn't integrated on Mirage 3.


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## Signalian

AGAVE Radar, installed in Mirage-VPA3 under use of PN, has three modes of operation. 

In the sea mode it can automatically track and designate small targets at sea. For air-to-air work it will track targets automatically after manual target designation, and has a dogfight facility which scans only the HUD field of view. For air-to-ground work the. radar can be used for mapping or target tanging. Given sufficiently accurate navigation and ranging data, the HUD can provide continuously computed impact point (CCIP) indications for ground attacks. Thomson-CSF believes that this is a large advantage over a conventional gunsight, allowing the pilot to aim and release weapons without having full view of the target. Diving attacks with late release can now be replaced by toss-bombing attacks in which weapons are released at much greater range. 

AM-39 Exocet is enabled for operations with this radar.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1979/1979 - 0652.PDF

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## Philip the Arab

Signalian said:


> AGAVE Radar, installed in Mirage-VPA3 under use of PN, has three modes of operation.
> 
> In the sea mode it can automatically track and designate small targets at sea. For air-to-air work it will track targets automatically after manual target designation, and has a dogfight facility which scans only the HUD field of view. For air-to-ground work the. radar can be used for mapping or target tanging. Given sufficiently accurate navigation and ranging data, the HUD can provide continuously computed impact point (CCIP) indications for ground attacks. Thomson-CSF believes that this is a large advantage over a conventional gunsight, allowing the pilot to aim and release weapons without having full view of the target. Diving attacks with late release can now be replaced by toss-bombing attacks in which weapons are released at much greater range.
> 
> AM-39 Exocet is enabled for operations with this radar.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1979/1979 - 0652.PDF


Morocco had an upgrade of Mirage F1 that enabled BVRAAM integration as well as modern cockpit and sensors. Could similar program be done with Mirage 3 albeit the Indian Rafale deal could be tricky. MICA can reach 80km with some variants.


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## ziaulislam

Philip the Arab said:


> Morocco had an upgrade of Mirage F1 that enabled BVRAAM integration as well as modern cockpit and sensors. Could similar program be done with Mirage 3 albeit the Indian Rafale deal could be tricky. MICA can reach 80km with some variants.


Waste of money
PAF will add a squardon if jf17 rather than doing major upgrades in mirages


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> Waste of money
> PAF will add a squardon if jf17 rather than doing major upgrades in mirages


Correct if the status quo is to be remaining; if still 2035+ is target; then a cheetah type conversion is due.

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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> Correct if the status quo is to be remaining; if still 2035+ is target; then a cheetah type conversion is due.


PAF is hopeful (though a false hope IMO) for replacements, the reason why you dont see any further upgrades. the will only keep a squardons two-three for strategic/nuclear role with raad which doesnt need upgardes 

India experimented With jaguars to come to same conclusion ..its not worth it...

But i m just an amateur, i might be wrong


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> PAF is hopeful (though a false hope IMO) for replacements, the reason why you dont see any further upgrades. the will only keep a squardons two-three for strategic/nuclear role with raad which doesnt need upgardes
> 
> India experimented With jaguars to come to same conclusion ..its not worth it...
> 
> But i m just an amateur, i might be wrong


Again it depends where the timeframes are; as i said in other threads, there is a failure in long term vision and no plan B.

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## HawkEye27

50 Years of Mirage - Montage

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## FuturePAF

ziaulislam said:


> PAF is hopeful (though a false hope IMO) for replacements, the reason why you dont see any further upgrades. the will only keep a squardons two-three for strategic/nuclear role with raad which doesnt need upgardes
> 
> India experimented With jaguars to come to same conclusion ..its not worth it...
> 
> But i m just an amateur, i might be wrong



Unless if parts from the JF-17 Block I and II could be modified and placed in the Mirages to allow them to solider until we can afford to the mirages. This is if the Block I and II get an AESA upgrade, and we work with Denel to put in the minimum needed structural improvements for the most outcome. The Egyptian Horus mirages point to a desire by the PAF to reach at least the Horus level of capability; such as Night vision for day/night capability if it wasn't present already.

The PAF can keep most upgrades podded for quick integration, upgrades and to minimize costs, but keeping the 6 squadrons going will require a continuation of structural overhauls and replacement parts. Might as well upgrade some parts and structures while we are at it, such as replace some parts with new composite parts. This will decrease the need to find as many spare parts, and seems like a worthwhile project until Block III production starts.

Additional a new Radar will allow us to integrate new weapons without Grifo (Italy) notify its allies, and the information getting back to India. New long range stealthier cruise missiles, glide bombs, and fighter launched drones coudl be compromised if they have to be integrated on the Grifo Radar, while the KLJ-7 being a Chinese radar goes without saying.

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## ziaulislam

FuturePAF said:


> Unless if parts from the JF-17 Block I and II could be modified and placed in the Mirages to allow them to solider until we can afford to the mirages. This is if the Block I and II get an AESA upgrade, and we work with Denel to put in the minimum needed structural improvements for the most outcome. The Egyptian Horus mirages point to a desire by the PAF to reach at least the Horus level of capability; such as Night vision for day/night capability if it wasn't present already.
> 
> The PAF can keep most upgrades podded for quick integration, upgrades and to minimize costs, but keeping the 6 squadrons going will require a continuation of structural overhauls and replacement parts. Might as well upgrade some parts and structures while we are at it, such as replace some parts with new composite parts. This will decrease the need to find as many spare parts, and seems like a worthwhile project until Block III production starts.
> 
> Additional a new Radar will allow us to integrate new weapons without Grifo (Italy) notify its allies, and the information getting back to India. New long range stealthier cruise missiles, glide bombs, and fighter launched drones coudl be compromised if they have to be integrated on the Grifo Radar, while the KLJ-7 being a Chinese radar goes without saying.


PAF mirages were already night cable through ROSE ..
the horus ones have better radar and self protection capablities..
i think they are merely for spares...

PAF has 19 squadrons
by 2022 PAF will get around 260(183+76) 4th gen fighters in 10(jf17)+5(f16) squadrons..

the rest 4 squadrons will probably remains mirages3/5 for strategic & CS role..if it finds more f16s it can trim this further to just 2 squadrons, but even though PAF is very hopefull i am not..as there is very strong lobbying in congress against it

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## CHI RULES

ziaulislam said:


> PAF mirages were already night cable through ROSE ..
> the horus ones have better radar and self protection capablities..
> i think they are merely for spares...
> 
> PAF has 19 squadrons
> by 2022 PAF will get around 260(183+76) 4th gen fighters in 10(jf17)+5(f16) squadrons..
> 
> the rest 4 squadrons will probably remains mirages3/5 for strategic & CS role..if it finds more f16s it can trim this further to just 2 squadrons, but even though PAF is very hopefull i am not..as there is very strong lobbying in congress against it


Horus coming to Pakistan are 30+ and it is stated that some of them shall be integrated may be a squadron either new one or may replace jets of existing one. Interesting feature of Horus is their relatively modern radar and other capabilities already stated which are surely better than Rose upgrade. All Horus shall not be used for spares. Even the Horus which shall be used as spares shall be beneficial to further upgrade the Mirage Rose. The Horus can be armed with BVR missile also so Pak may have option arm at least 36 Mirages with BVR Missiles duly supported by their Radars assuming that if 18 Horus inducted directly than remaining 18 Radars and EW/ECM gadgets shall be used to further upgrade one existing Mirage squadron resultantly we may have real 4th gen two squadrons armed which can be armed with BVR missiles along with A2G weaponry.

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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> Horus coming to Pakistan are 30+ and it is stated that some of them shall be integrated may be a squadron either new one or may replace jets of existing one. Interesting feature of Horus is their relatively modern radar and other capabilities already stated which are surely better than Rose upgrade. All Horus shall not be used for spares. Even the Horus which shall be used as spares shall be beneficial to further upgrade the Mirage Rose. The Horus can be armed with BVR missile also so Pak may have option arm at least 36 Mirages with BVR Missiles duly supported by their Radars assuming that if 18 Horus inducted directly than remaining 18 Radars and EW/ECM gadgets shall be used to further upgrade one existing Mirage squadron resultantly we may have real 4th gen two squadrons armed which can be armed with BVR missiles along with A2G weaponry.


Remember, you are looking at around 2 years turn around time before these aircraft show up on service; they will need to be overhauled.
For BVRs - when present Roses were not done, what makes Horus feasible? Not sure what you will put there for that as there is nothing integrated; something that needs to be done from scratch - i doubt EAF was having any BVRs there either.

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## CHI RULES

denel said:


> Remember, you are looking at around 2 years turn around time before these aircraft show up on service; they will need to be overhauled.



Sir I have stated what info is available in media, it is up to professionals like you to estimate time span of their inclusion, however in my humble opinion PAF must have already evaluated them and due to serious circumstance there are chances that after some minor overhauls a squadron can be made available in next six months. Some where I have read that in some capabilities the Horus matches the Mirage 2000. Please share in light of your experience the capabilities of Horus.

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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> Sir I have stated what info is available in media, it is up to professionals like you to estimate time span of their inclusion, however in my humble opinion PAF must have already evaluated them and due to serious circumstance there are chances that after some minor overhauls a squadron can be made available in next six months. Some where I have read that in some capabilities the Horus matches the Mirage 2000. Please share in light of your experience the capabilities of Horus.


Unfortunately, i dont have much exposure on M2k or RC400 to comment.

Knowing how EA keeps their birds, it is better to get them to a full overhaul.

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## CHI RULES

denel said:


> Unfortunately, i dont have much exposure on M2k or RC400 to comment.
> 
> Knowing how EA keeps their birds, it is better to get them to a full overhaul.



Considering past news about EA your point is quite valid yet there shall be some airworthy plat forms so PAF is trying to get them early. May be you can collect some info regarding Horus capabilities and can comment later on as with your expertise you may analyse something new from available data.

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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> Considering past news about EA your point is quite valid yet there shall be some airworthy plat forms so PAF is trying to get them early. May be you can collect some info regarding Horus capabilities and can comment later on as with your expertise you may analyse something new from available data.


Sure, it depends on what these birds will be dedicated to e.g. deep strike mission, then bvrs have no point - that is not the mission for these birds; but one expects atlas's IFR, various integration points for delivering H2/H4, communication upgrade including H4 link etc. There is a lot of work required to make it up to standard.

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## nomi007

Any idea when 1st Horus will reach Pakistan

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Sure, it depends on what these birds will be dedicated to e.g. deep strike mission, then bvrs have no point - that is not the mission for these birds; but one expects atlas's IFR, various integration points for delivering H2/H4, communication upgrade including H4 link etc. There is a lot of work required to make it up to standard.


There might be H6(Raptor 3) on the Horizon too!

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> There might be H6(Raptor 3) on the Horizon too!


true, but links remain the same.

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## Quwa

One idea the PAF can look at is rebuild the Mirages by zero-houring the airframe and engine. That way, it can fly for many years. No need to worry about the expensive electronics or digital flight control system, there's JF-17 for multi-role. Just maintain 3 Mirage squadrons as dedicated strategic/nuclear deployment assets, and downstream all conventional strike (SOW, conventional ALCM, etc) to the JF-17.

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## Dazzler



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## TOPGUN

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 580298



Eye of the tiger !!

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## mshan44



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## ghazi52

P.A.F. Falcons pose in front of F-6 and Mirage-5PA at Sargodha - circa 1978.
Squadron Leader Cecil Chaudhry

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## jamal18

Quwa said:


> One idea the PAF can look at is rebuild the Mirages by zero-houring the airframe and engine. That way, it can fly for many years. No need to worry about the expensive electronics or digital flight control system, there's JF-17 for multi-role. Just maintain 3 Mirage squadrons as dedicated strategic/nuclear deployment assets, and downstream all conventional strike (SOW, conventional ALCM, etc) to the JF-17.



A long time ago I read an interview of the air force chief when he was questoned about mirage rebuilds. While happy with them, he made the point that you can only rebuild an aircraft that often, as the very metal you are working on is fatigued.

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## Basel

Quwa said:


> One idea the PAF can look at is rebuild the Mirages by zero-houring the airframe and engine. That way, it can fly for many years. No need to worry about the expensive electronics or digital flight control system, there's JF-17 for multi-role. Just maintain 3 Mirage squadrons as dedicated strategic/nuclear deployment assets, and downstream all conventional strike (SOW, conventional ALCM, etc) to the JF-17.



You mean something similar like Kifir block-60??

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## Adam_Khan

How many of you have heard about a fratricide involving 2 mirages?


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## GriffinsRule

Adam_Khan said:


> How many of you have heard about a fratricide involving 2 mirages?


Two Mirage 3RPs that were involved in a mid-air collision during training?


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## Quwa

Basel said:


> You mean something similar like Kifir block-60??


Yup, minus the costly electronics.

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## Basel

Quwa said:


> Yup, minus the costly electronics.



But with With JFT block-2+ (air cooled AESA radar) avionics it could be beast to have.

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## Fawadqasim1

ghazi52 said:


> P.A.F. Falcons pose in front of F-6 and Mirage-5PA at Sargodha - circa 1978.
> Squadron Leader Cecil Chaudhry


This photo was on one of my notebooks back then.


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## denel

Basel said:


> You mean something similar like Kifir block-60??


Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).
My 2 cents for all to comment.



Fawadqasim1 said:


> This photo was on one of my notebooks back then.


I love it. that Mig19 is something of a beauty.

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## Bossman

Adam_Khan said:


> How many of you have heard about a fratricide involving 2 mirages?


 
AAM over Somiani. Pilot error and it was a seasoned Wing Commander.


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## jamal18

denel said:


> Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
> It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
> You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
> Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
> If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).
> My 2 cents for all to comment.
> 
> 
> I love it. that Mig19 is something of a beauty.



By now our rebuid and new construction facilities are so extensive that I cannot understand why we cannot build new frames and major parts ourselves. It should be entirely within our abilities to have a 'cheetah' style project. Sure, it won't be a 5th generation aircraft, and you may not get many internationa buyers, but the payback for what would be a minor investment would be significant.

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## Adam_Khan

Bossman said:


> AAM over Somiani. Pilot error and it was a seasoned Wing Commander.



Talking about this.




Talking about this.

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 580423


The Mirages flown by PAF professionals are a class of their own. The pictures of these vintage machines still mesmerise our odd souls.


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## GriffinsRule

Adam_Khan said:


> Talking about this.
> 
> View attachment 580412
> Talking about this.



Which book is that from? Thanks!

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
> It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
> You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
> Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
> If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).
> My 2 cents for all to comment.
> 
> 
> I love it. that Mig19 is something of a beauty.


Sir, you keep making a lot of sense. But PAF is always content with the birds they get from the OEM and hardly ever take a daring risk to improve them.
We should start manufacturing M3/M5 derivative and take it to the level of other 4+ generation fighters out there. Combine that with the latest electronics, new engine, new composite materials, and there you have a partner for jf17. The project azm will nicely complement them.

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## GriffinsRule

Bossman said:


> AAM over Somiani. Pilot error and it was a seasoned Wing Commander.


Was this Wing Cmdr Faisal Mumtaz Rao?


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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
> It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
> You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
> Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
> If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).


Remember we discussed this not long time ago,built new Airframes using RD-93 engines and rest everything fully over hauled from Mirages.
Egyption purchase and events of 27th tell us that M3/5 are going to stay for another 1 or 2 decades.
Our Mirages are already on par with M2000 in terms of A2G Strike capability(thanks to S.A)minus A2A.
RD-93 is turbofan engine fitting it into M3/5 airframes would make a great strike fighter.
Considering following points:-
-M3/5 carries almost 3300 L of internal fuel.
-09C is larger and heavier than 93,replacing it would provide more space and weight reduction.
*09C L/D/W*

Length: 232 in

Diameter: 39 in

Dry weight: 1,456 kg
*RD-33 L/D/W*

Length: 166.50 in

Diameter: 40.94 in

Dry weight: 1,055 kg
-93 consumes low fuel as compared to 09C,In longer run cost of fuel would be a factor.
*09C Fuel Consumption*

103 kg/(kN·h) 28.6g/(kN⋅s) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power

207 kg/(kN·h) 57.5 g/(kN⋅s) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner
*RD-33 fuel consumption*
75 kg/(kN·h) (0.77 lb/(lbf·h)) dry, 188 kg/(kN·h) (1.85 lb/(lbf·h))​-This space can be used for fuel cells or new avionics modules.
-New engine with higher thrust and low fuel consumption would increase combat radius and weapon load.
-In longer run fuel guzzling 09C would be gone,which would free up logistics,reduction in fuel bills and we can go ahead with complete MRO for Rd-93.
We can go ahead and follow atlas "cheetah" path by:- 

Installation of non-moving canards just aft of the engine intakes.
Two additional stores pylons at the wing roots.
An aerial refuelling probe like on JFT.
A new main wing spar along with a new "drooping" leading edge and a dog-tooth incision on each wing, modern elevons controlled by a twin computer-based flight control system, and strakes on the nose to improve the high-Angle of attack (AoA) performance._(Copied from Atlas Cheetah page)_
Construction of Airframe from same material that has been used in JFT construction and getting parts jigs from S.A along with experts would ease this project more.

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## ziaulislam

Adam_Khan said:


> Talking about this.
> 
> View attachment 580412
> Talking about this.


wow
i hope they were lectured correctly


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## GriffinsRule

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Remember we discussed this not long time ago,built new Airframes using RD-93 engines and rest everything fully over hauled from Mirages.
> Egyption purchase and events of 27th tell us that M3/5 are going to stay for another 1 or 2 decades.
> Our Mirages are already on par with M2000 in terms of A2G Strike capability(thanks to S.A)minus A2A.
> RD-93 is turbofan engine fitting it into M3/5 airframes would make a great strike fighter.
> Considering following points:-
> -M3/5 carries almost 3300 L of internal fuel.
> -09C is larger and heavier than 93,replacing it would provide more space and weight reduction.
> *09C L/D/W*
> 
> Length: 232 in
> 
> Diameter: 39 in
> 
> Dry weight: 1,456 kg
> *RD-33 L/D/W*
> 
> Length: 166.50 in
> 
> Diameter: 40.94 in
> 
> Dry weight: 1,055 kg
> -93 consumes low fuel as compared to 09C,In longer run cost of fuel would be a factor.
> *09C Fuel Consumption*
> 
> 103 kg/(kN·h) 28.6g/(kN⋅s) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power
> 
> 207 kg/(kN·h) 57.5 g/(kN⋅s) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner
> *RD-33 fuel consumption*
> 75 kg/(kN·h) (0.77 lb/(lbf·h)) dry, 188 kg/(kN·h) (1.85 lb/(lbf·h))​-This space can be used for fuel cells or new avionics modules.
> -New engine with higher thrust and low fuel consumption would increase combat radius and weapon load.
> -In longer run fuel guzzling 09C would be gone,which would free up logistics,reduction in fuel bills and we can go ahead with complete MRO for Rd-93.
> We can go ahead and follow atlas "cheetah" path by:-
> 
> Installation of non-moving canards just aft of the engine intakes.
> Two additional stores pylons at the wing roots.
> An aerial refuelling probe like on JFT.
> A new main wing spar along with a new "drooping" leading edge and a dog-tooth incision on each wing, modern elevons controlled by a twin computer-based flight control system, and strakes on the nose to improve the high-Angle of attack (AoA) performance._(Copied from Atlas Cheetah page)_
> Construction of Airframe from same material that has been used in JFT construction and getting parts jigs from S.A along with experts would ease this project more.



I had floated this idea a couple of times as well but if we are to go by evidence on the ground, Pakistan lacks the capability to build new airframes. Even the wings, which would be a much simpler undertaking, and that we repair and patch up quite often are not built from scratch. If Kamra could have done it, they would not have gone hunting for wings in SA and Spain etc.

One other point is of course costs. A newly built Mirage would cost a lot more money, that could be better spent on JF-17s and AZM.

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## Dazzler

denel said:


> Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
> It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
> You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
> Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
> If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).
> My 2 cents for all to comment.
> 
> 
> I love it. that Mig19 is something of a beauty.




Oh yes, farmer was/is my love. What a sight it was to see it roaring every day of my childhood.

OTOH, i like how PA and SA have been working on so many projects with both maintaining a gung ho about it. Its always good to work in pin drop silence.

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## Sine Nomine

GriffinsRule said:


> One other point is of course costs. A newly built Mirage would cost a lot more money, that could be better spent on JF-17s and AZM.


Down the road the amount we are spending on their upgrades would go in bin.My estimate is around 6 million per AC,of which major cost is that of power plant.


GriffinsRule said:


> Pakistan lacks the capability to build new airframes. Even the wings, which would be a much simpler undertaking, and that we repair and patch up quite often are not built from scratch. If Kamra could have done it, they would not have gone hunting for wings in SA and Spain etc.


We are manufacturing JFT's and have been rebuilding Mirages,F-7 and F-6.
We did build a SAAB-2000 from it's destroyed airframe,we also have built air-intake of a F-16 which was destroyed and LM said it isn't airworty.
Please think again in light of above mentioned points about our capability to build new airframes.
We buy parts from outside becase it's cheap,in these states who have retired these fighters,these parts are not worth anything,they sell us cheap.


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## Armchair

One could do it bit by bit. Using 3D printing it would be even easier. With each overhaul you remanufacture the weakest link parts. Then next overhaul you remanufacture the next batch of weakest link parts. 
3D printing has come a long way and is used by many countries to build out of manufacture parts. I met a USAF technician who did that for the USAF and it involves of a lot of mathematics and model building. Experienced tech can look at a part and do the math for building the 3D model. Then all you do is press the print button.

More recently you can simply scan a part and the computer will model it for you...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FYI it looks like the Israelis are offering the Kfir NG with a 'zero-timed' airframe, AESA radar, GE F414 turbofan engine, and -- depending on end-user requirements -- new-build airframes.

With the current Kfir Block 60 that the FAC operates featuring a 'zero-timed' airframe, system, sensor, avionics (comparable with the F-16 Block 52), and weapon enhancements, the Kfir NG adds a more powerful General Electric (GE) F414 engine (as already powers the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen E/F) in place of the outdated GE J79; an enhanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; improvements to the datalinks; and upgraded avionics. Another feature that is still in development is a redesigned aft-fuselage that will increase the aircraft fuel capacity. According to Melamed, this should double the Kfir's endurance.

The Kfir NG could be based on remanufactured FAC airframes, surplus Israeli Air Force airframes, or could even be new-build depending on the requirements. Melamed declined to put a timeline on the Colombian offer.​
https://www.janes.com/article/89345...-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service​The idea of re-manufacturing and upgrading the Mirage 3/5s is seeming increasingly tenable, but this can't be an internal PAF or PAC project. With the JF-17 and Project Azm, there are too few resources available. Rather, the PAF ought to look at external contractors to carry out the work.

If Denel Aeronautics still has the Cheetah's jigs, then I think this is all doable, though it'll require breaking down whatever mental or planning blocks preventing this from being an option. In fact, given the stakes (potentially a new-build bird with 4+ gen capabilities), they can move slow and start with a pilot project (3-5 planes).

I, for one, fully support the idea of bringing new life into the Mirages if it means gaining 3~5 squadrons of dedicated deep-strike, anti-shipping and strategic/nuclear attack assets. 

@denel @Armchair @Deltadart

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## denel

Armchair said:


> One could do it bit by bit. Using 3D printing it would be even easier. With each overhaul you remanufacture the weakest link parts. Then next overhaul you remanufacture the next batch of weakest link parts.
> 3D printing has come a long way and is used by many countries to build out of manufacture parts. I met a USAF technician who did that for the USAF and it involves of a lot of mathematics and model building. Experienced tech can look at a part and do the math for building the 3D model. Then all you do is press the print button.
> 
> More recently you can simply scan a part and the computer will model it for you...


No no, 3D does not give the strength required.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> FYI it looks like the Israelis are offering the Kfir NG with a 'zero-timed' airframe, AESA radar, GE F414 turbofan engine, and -- depending on end-user requirements -- new-build airframes.
> 
> With the current Kfir Block 60 that the FAC operates featuring a 'zero-timed' airframe, system, sensor, avionics (comparable with the F-16 Block 52), and weapon enhancements, the Kfir NG adds a more powerful General Electric (GE) F414 engine (as already powers the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen E/F) in place of the outdated GE J79; an enhanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; improvements to the datalinks; and upgraded avionics. Another feature that is still in development is a redesigned aft-fuselage that will increase the aircraft fuel capacity. According to Melamed, this should double the Kfir's endurance.
> 
> The Kfir NG could be based on remanufactured FAC airframes, surplus Israeli Air Force airframes, or could even be new-build depending on the requirements. Melamed declined to put a timeline on the Colombian offer.​
> https://www.janes.com/article/89345...-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service​The idea of re-manufacturing and upgrading the Mirage 3/5s is seeming increasingly tenable, but this can't be an internal PAF or PAC project. With the JF-17 and Project Azm, there are too few resources available. Rather, the PAF ought to look at external contractors to carry out the work.
> 
> If Denel Aeronautics still has the Cheetah's jigs, then I think this is all doable, though it'll require breaking down whatever mental or planning blocks preventing this from being an option. In fact, given the stakes (potentially a new-build bird with 4+ gen capabilities), they can move slow and start with a pilot project (3-5 planes).
> 
> I, for one, fully support the idea of bringing new life into the Mirages if it means gaining 3~5 squadrons of dedicated deep-strike, anti-shipping and strategic/nuclear attack assets.
> 
> @denel @Armchair @Deltadart


Absolutely, Cheetah jigs are still there - specifically for after sales support for remaining Cheetahs. It is doable and the blueprints are still there. I am onboard to get these M3/5s into a new class Shaheen - A slow turnrate will get these birds into a new lease of life as a new entity. One should keep RD33 option as a POC to demostrate what it will bring. 
But know how Pak leadership has been and vested interests, they fail to think out of the box even on this one. I hope I am proven wrong.



Dazzler said:


> Oh yes, farmer was/is my love. What a sight it was to see it roaring every day of my childhood.
> 
> OTOH, i like how PA and SA have been working on so many projects with both maintaining a gung ho about it. Its always good to work in pin drop silence.


Yes. Dont laugh - that was the motto of our EW unit - Silence



jamal18 said:


> By now our rebuid and new construction facilities are so extensive that I cannot understand why we cannot build new frames and major parts ourselves. It should be entirely within our abilities to have a 'cheetah' style project. Sure, it won't be a 5th generation aircraft, and you may not get many internationa buyers, but the payback for what would be a minor investment would be significant.


Correct - they have been penny wise pound foolish all along. Time needs to change and that time is now.



Deltadart said:


> Sir, you keep making a lot of sense. But PAF is always content with the birds they get from the OEM and hardly ever take a daring risk to improve them.
> We should start manufacturing M3/M5 derivative and take it to the level of other 4+ generation fighters out there. Combine that with the latest electronics, new engine, new composite materials, and there you have a partner for jf17. The project azm will nicely complement them.


Absolutely, with Cheetah blueprints, jigs - everything is there, just a matter of having the vision. Given the dependency on M3/5, these are not going to go away no matter what; why not move it to next generation. Everything is there.



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Remember we discussed this not long time ago,built new Airframes using RD-93 engines and rest everything fully over hauled from Mirages.
> Egyption purchase and events of 27th tell us that M3/5 are going to stay for another 1 or 2 decades.
> Our Mirages are already on par with M2000 in terms of A2G Strike capability(thanks to S.A)minus A2A.
> RD-93 is turbofan engine fitting it into M3/5 airframes would make a great strike fighter.
> Considering following points:-
> -M3/5 carries almost 3300 L of internal fuel.
> -09C is larger and heavier than 93,replacing it would provide more space and weight reduction.
> *09C L/D/W*
> 
> Length: 232 in
> 
> Diameter: 39 in
> 
> Dry weight: 1,456 kg
> *RD-33 L/D/W*
> 
> Length: 166.50 in
> 
> Diameter: 40.94 in
> 
> Dry weight: 1,055 kg
> -93 consumes low fuel as compared to 09C,In longer run cost of fuel would be a factor.
> *09C Fuel Consumption*
> 
> 103 kg/(kN·h) 28.6g/(kN⋅s) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power
> 
> 207 kg/(kN·h) 57.5 g/(kN⋅s) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner
> *RD-33 fuel consumption*
> 75 kg/(kN·h) (0.77 lb/(lbf·h)) dry, 188 kg/(kN·h) (1.85 lb/(lbf·h))​-This space can be used for fuel cells or new avionics modules.
> -New engine with higher thrust and low fuel consumption would increase combat radius and weapon load.
> -In longer run fuel guzzling 09C would be gone,which would free up logistics,reduction in fuel bills and we can go ahead with complete MRO for Rd-93.
> We can go ahead and follow atlas "cheetah" path by:-
> 
> Installation of non-moving canards just aft of the engine intakes.
> Two additional stores pylons at the wing roots.
> An aerial refuelling probe like on JFT.
> A new main wing spar along with a new "drooping" leading edge and a dog-tooth incision on each wing, modern elevons controlled by a twin computer-based flight control system, and strakes on the nose to improve the high-Angle of attack (AoA) performance._(Copied from Atlas Cheetah page)_
> Construction of Airframe from same material that has been used in JFT construction and getting parts jigs from S.A along with experts would ease this project more.


You have made the perfect case for ROI for Shaheen project!.

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## Avicenna

denel said:


> No no, 3D does not give the strength required.
> 
> 
> Absolutely, Cheetah jigs are still there - specifically for after sales support for remaining Cheetahs. It is doable and the blueprints are still there. I am onboard to get these M3/5s into a new class Shaheen - A slow turnrate will get these birds into a new lease of life as a new entity. One should keep RD33 option as a POC to demostrate what it will bring.
> But know how Pak leadership has been and vested interests, they fail to think out of the box even on this one. I hope I am proven wrong.
> 
> 
> Yes. Dont laugh - that was the motto of our EW unit - Silence
> 
> 
> Correct - they have been penny wise pound foolish all along. Time needs to change and that time is now.
> 
> 
> Absolutely, with Cheetah blueprints, jigs - everything is there, just a matter of having the vision. Given the dependency on M3/5, these are not going to go away no matter what; why not move it to next generation. Everything is there.
> 
> 
> You have made the perfect case for ROI for Shaheen project!.



So what’s the roadblock to implementing this?

Which individual or group of individuals can make this happen?


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## Deltadart

Avicenna said:


> So what’s the roadblock to implementing this?
> 
> Which individual or group of individuals can make this happen?


The government must force PAF and the defense establishment to make it a reality. Find a way to fund it.

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## GriffinsRule

Mirages are beautiful machines indeed. If Pakistan is to make newly built Mirages, then they would need to incorporate newer gen technology as well, such as FBW and canards (akin to the NG concept). 

The issue however we run into is one of economies of scale. Building 60 odd fighters or something is not a viable option for Pakistan (assuming we can actually build the entire airframe without support from Dassault). Hence it is sticking with overhauling what it has. Rebuilding the airframe will take a lot of time and resources, which I think would be better spent on a tried and tested Thunder now.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Mirages are beautiful machines indeed. If Pakistan is to make newly built Mirages, then they would need to incorporate newer gen technology as well, such as FBW and canards (akin to the NG concept).
> 
> The issue however we run into is one of economies of scale. Building 60 odd fighters or something is not a viable option for Pakistan (assuming we can actually build the entire airframe without support from Dassault). Hence it is sticking with overhauling what it has. Rebuilding the airframe will take a lot of time and resources, which I think would be better spent on a tried and tested Thunder now.


Indeed, but if the infrastructure to do it is still in-tact in South Africa, then economies-of-scale might not be as much of a constraint. As long as the cost to re-start those facilities is reasonable, the program is doable. For the PAF, the benefit would be 3~5 squadrons of SOW-carrying platforms.

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## denel

Avicenna said:


> So what’s the roadblock to implementing this?
> 
> Which individual or group of individuals can make this happen?


No vision or desire - bad leadership; just leave status quo remain is no longer an option.

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## ziaulislam

Avicenna said:


> So what’s the roadblock to implementing this?
> 
> Which individual or group of individuals can make this happen?


PAF thinks that they have enough spares to run 2-3 squadrons till 2030(60ish) 
these squadrons rule will be to fly and drop the air launch raad and may be cluster ammunition for which the are more than capable

the money that would be spent on this project is suppose to go to jf17s and project AZM.. jf17 though might not be dedicated bomber like mirage V but is much more advance and versatile

when it comes to raad, i doubt this is the conventional weapon for PAF, i think it is simply a strategic weapon..PAF is in hurry to add this to JF17 for which probably a newer advance version is being made..while REK will be the main stay for jf17

though i ma curious about h4 will it be added to jf17(meaning confirmation will be seen)



GriffinsRule said:


> Mirages are beautiful machines indeed. If Pakistan is to make newly built Mirages, then they would need to incorporate newer gen technology as well, such as FBW and canards (akin to the NG concept).
> 
> The issue however we run into is one of economies of scale. Building 60 odd fighters or something is not a viable option for Pakistan (assuming we can actually build the entire airframe without support from Dassault). Hence it is sticking with overhauling what it has. Rebuilding the airframe will take a lot of time and resources, which I think would be better spent on a tried and tested Thunder now.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed, but if the infrastructure to do it is still in-tact in South Africa, then economies-of-scale might not be as much of a constraint. As long as the cost to re-start those facilities is reasonable, the program is doable. For the PAF, the benefit would be 3~5 squadrons of SOW-carrying platforms.


what would be interesting is that if PAF does decide to do this..cost wise and logistics...will an updated mirage 5 with rd93 and flyby wire be better a choice or j10 kind of off the shelf jet

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## Path-Finder

I believe that the experience and expertise PAF has with rebuilding and repair like we have seen across many platforms is going to keep the necessary numbers of mirage in use. 

As for expanding the fleet? My guess is that the future will be all missile based delivery. But who knows.


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## Fawadqasim1

denel said:


> Similar to Cheetah; Kfir 60 is new build from scratch.
> It is a decision they need to take; they keep scavenging parts to keep the airframes going but they will give up eventually; the need to have a newer zero airframe is there; they are not getting it. They have entire drawings etc. and with newer alloys new airframe can easily be built. I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done inhouse. Similarly they got zero hour wings from Atlas; we still have entire facilities still available if needed to assist with airframe as well.
> You have all M3/M5; just bring them into a common designator - call it Shaheen I (with high reverence and respect to Honourable M.Iqbal).
> Given that the pollination with our consortiums will continue albeit under the covers in other areas (H2/4/Raad/SOMs/rek + all the new systems which are coming online for various clients like UAE/KSA), Shaheen I designation will see to it that it will be around for even 2035 onwards; who else is better suited to collaborate.
> If there was a project within the new Aviation Centre, this would be it; let post grad students put their heads together and come up with what is required to move M3/5 to Shaheen I. The future is bright provided we dont have morons on the take (leadership who are clueless and having no self confidence in internal capabilities).
> My 2 cents for all to comment.
> 
> 
> I love it. that Mig19 is something of a beauty.


We can use Rd93ma engine and chinese avionics with klj7a radar and irst.

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## Adam_Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> Which book is that from? Thanks!



It's from this book,there was another incident of fratricide during 1971 war when Wing Commander Saad Hatmi shot down his wingman with a sidewinder who sadly died,you can read about this incident in Kaiser Tufail's book on 1971 war.

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## denel

Fawadqasim1 said:


> We can use Rd93ma engine and chinese avionics with klj7a radar and irst.


Friend, we noted using the engine as a POC; this has already been done. The rest, i dont think is required as this is solely a deep strike/sOW platform.


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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> FYI it looks like the Israelis are offering the Kfir NG with a 'zero-timed' airframe, AESA radar, GE F414 turbofan engine, and -- depending on end-user requirements -- new-build airframes.
> 
> With the current Kfir Block 60 that the FAC operates featuring a 'zero-timed' airframe, system, sensor, avionics (comparable with the F-16 Block 52), and weapon enhancements, the Kfir NG adds a more powerful General Electric (GE) F414 engine (as already powers the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen E/F) in place of the outdated GE J79; an enhanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; improvements to the datalinks; and upgraded avionics. Another feature that is still in development is a redesigned aft-fuselage that will increase the aircraft fuel capacity. According to Melamed, this should double the Kfir's endurance.
> 
> The Kfir NG could be based on remanufactured FAC airframes, surplus Israeli Air Force airframes, or could even be new-build depending on the requirements. Melamed declined to put a timeline on the Colombian offer.​
> https://www.janes.com/article/89345...-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service​The idea of re-manufacturing and upgrading the Mirage 3/5s is seeming increasingly tenable, but this can't be an internal PAF or PAC project. With the JF-17 and Project Azm, there are too few resources available. Rather, the PAF ought to look at external contractors to carry out the work.
> 
> If Denel Aeronautics still has the Cheetah's jigs, then I think this is all doable, though it'll require breaking down whatever mental or planning blocks preventing this from being an option. In fact, given the stakes (potentially a new-build bird with 4+ gen capabilities), they can move slow and start with a pilot project (3-5 planes).
> 
> I, for one, fully support the idea of bringing new life into the Mirages if it means gaining 3~5 squadrons of dedicated deep-strike, anti-shipping and strategic/nuclear attack assets.
> 
> @denel @Armchair @Deltadart



If we keep it simple, remanufactured airframe with rd93 engine, the cost should be reasonable. 5 squadrons of strikers at a bargain basement cost, that can fly lower than most aircraft out there. With rd93 you would have range to hit Indias soft belly in the southern cost.
Add conformal fuel tanks... That would be a mean and cheap bird

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> Friend, we noted using the engine as a POC; this has already been done. The rest, i dont think is required as this is solely a deep strike/sOW platform.


Reproduction would help it strike more deep.


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## jamal18

Armchair said:


> If we keep it simple, remanufactured airframe with rd93 engine, the cost should be reasonable. 5 squadrons of strikers at a bargain basement cost, that can fly lower than most aircraft out there. With rd93 you would have range to hit Indias soft belly in the southern cost.
> Add conformal fuel tanks... That would be a mean and cheap bird



Yes. the essential is to keep the cost low. If the cost increases then the arguement will be, ' why build a new Mirage when, with a few more dollars, you can build a new jf-17?'


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## ziaulislam

Fawadqasim1 said:


> We can use Rd93ma engine and chinese avionics with klj7a radar and irst.


Thing is south asia is changing rapidly ..india is aggressively changing its posture from focusing on internal development to external issues ..modi isnt going any where and war is all but imminent ...

36 more rafales are on horizon..can PAF wait just for block3 and ignore long range strike platform ?

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## denel

jamal18 said:


> Yes. the essential is to keep the cost low. If the cost increases then the arguement will be, ' why build a new Mirage when, with a few more dollars, you can build a new jf-17?'


the question is that of how much newer airframes for deep strike cost and entire maintenance vs reworking the M3/5 into a new bird. Think of it long term not short term. It is inhouse and you will have the complete know how and screw any sanctions and be independent long run.

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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> Thing is south asia is changing rapidly ..india is aggressively changing its posture from focusing on internal development to external issues ..modi isnt going any where and war is all but imminent ...
> 
> 36 more rafales are on horizon..can PAF wait just for block3 and ignore long range strike platform ?


Block 3 is on the horizon. Any long range strike Pakistan tries to develop or buy will easily be 4-5 years in starting to get the deliveries for. They you can add another year or two on actually learning the jet and developing tactics around it. Hence Block III makes the most sense.

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> Block 3 is on the horizon. Any long range strike Pakistan tries to develop or buy will easily be 4-5 years in starting to get the deliveries for. They you can add another year or two on actually learning the jet and developing tactics around it. Hence Block III makes the most sense.


i think it would really depends what block 3 is? 
if there is a weak point in chain today it is the airforce that india would exploit..feb was a miscalculation but all hands are on deck to correct that problem hence the go ahead for 
1. additional 36 rafales 
2. stream line both the upgrades for mirage and 270 su30, additional orders for mig29,su30, 
3. fast pacing the LCA while cancelling the darin 3 

clearly shows india isnt going to waste any time...

i expect another batch of rafales order after these 72 aircraft while the MRCA will be scratched and numbers will be made up with LCA..we are looking at a very good (and expensive) electronic suit for LCA..problem most of the above will be accomplished by 2025

*to counter all of this with 50-60 block 3 till 2024 is not going to work...*
nationalism is india will lead to short war very soon...

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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> i think it would really depends what block 3 is?
> if there is a weak point in chain today it is the airforce that india would exploit..feb was a miscalculation but all hands are on deck to correct that problem hence the go ahead for
> 1. additional 36 rafales
> 2. stream line both the upgrades for mirage and 270 su30, additional orders for mig29,su30,
> 3. fast pacing the LCA while cancelling the darin 3
> 
> clearly shows india isnt going to waste any time...
> 
> i expect another batch of rafales order after these 72 aircraft while the MRCA will be scratched and numbers will be made up with LCA..we are looking at a very good (and expensive) electronic suit for LCA..problem most of the above will be accomplished by 2025
> 
> *to counter all of this with 50-60 block 3 till 2024 is not going to work...*
> nationalism is india will lead to short war very soon...


They have not started the upgrade program for the Su-30s so definitely not going to be in place by 2025. If they buy additional 36 Rafales, their capex for further upgrades will be even lower so its not an immediate threat. 
LCA might be a decent aircraft and a threat to Pakistan but not in its current form, regardless of how advanced it might be. Its still in FOC and clearly IAF is not impressed with it enough to order it in its current version. Mark 1A is not finalized either and no money has been allocated for the purchase of the batch of 83 either. Given their slow production rate, it is probably not a threat for PAF in the short term. It also shows that despite it being in "squadron service" for quite some time, it is not based anywhere near Pakistani border. They still seem to have more faith in the Mig-21bis, which is saying a lot. Could also be that they don't want it getting shot down by JF-17 as it would certainly for all intents and purposes kill the LCA program

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> the question is that of how much newer airframes for deep strike cost and entire maintenance vs reworking the M3/5 into a new bird. Think of it long term not short term. It is inhouse and you will have the complete know how and screw any sanctions and be independent long run.


PAF makes its own policy and determines its posture..... Unlike in the West where the think tanks of all shades analyze such issues and make recommendations to the services, we have nothing.
Our power hungry demagogues are too busy fighting with each other to worry about crucial national issues. So either we do something about mirages or forever keep wishing and waiting for the elusive f16s to fall in to our lap....not happening unless there is a cataclysmic geo strategic/political shift in the region.

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> They have not started the upgrade program for the Su-30s so definitely not going to be in place by 2025. If they buy additional 36 Rafales, their capex for further upgrades will be even lower so its not an immediate threat.
> LCA might be a decent aircraft and a threat to Pakistan but not in its current form, regardless of how advanced it might be. Its still in FOC and clearly IAF is not impressed with it enough to order it in its current version. Mark 1A is not finalized either and no money has been allocated for the purchase of the batch of 83 either. Given their slow production rate, it is probably not a threat for PAF in the short term. It also shows that despite it being in "squadron service" for quite some time, it is not based anywhere near Pakistani border. They still seem to have more faith in the Mig-21bis, which is saying a lot. Could also be that they don't want it getting shot down by JF-17 as it would certainly for all intents and purposes kill the LCA program


Confirm 2025 acquisitions are
1. Mirage 2000 update making them deadly threat
2. Rafale 36 additional purchases(plan is to ink deal next yr visit )
3. 12 su30 additional and 21 mig 29

Talks are going on updates

50 mirages and 36 rafales are going to change the whole dynamics ..its 10+ billion dollars investment

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## Fawadqasim1

denel said:


> Friend, we noted using the engine as a POC; this has already been done. The rest, i dont think is required as this is solely a deep strike/sOW platform.


You mean that electromagnetic, thermal guidance and awareness is redundant in such future missions isn't it hard to believe sir.



ziaulislam said:


> Thing is south asia is changing rapidly ..india is aggressively changing its posture from focusing on internal development to external issues ..modi isnt going any where and war is all but imminent ...
> 
> 36 more rafales are on horizon..can PAF wait just for block3 and ignore long range strike platform ?


You are absolutely right but we can't afford it courtesy of nawaz sharif and zardari.


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## ziaulislam

Fawadqasim1 said:


> You mean that electromagnetic, thermal guidance and awareness is redundant in such future missions isn't it hard to believe sir.
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right but we can't afford it courtesy of nawaz sharif and zardari.


I think solution should be either getting j10/f16/j31 or focusing on expediting the jf17 production to atleast 25ac/yr from yr 2021 onwards 

Navy got pretty much juice..airforce needs a squardon or two


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## Sine Nomine

ziaulislam said:


> I think solution should be either getting j10/f16/j31 or focusing on expediting the jf17 production to atleast 25ac/yr from yr 2021 onwards
> Navy got pretty much juice..airforce needs a squardon or two


By not going for J-10 we have done a blunder,we would have tried getting credit line from China,buying few aircrafts every year spread over time span of 15 years or so.By now we would be having decent force.

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## Fawadqasim1

ziaulislam said:


> I think solution should be either getting j10/f16/j31 or focusing on expediting the jf17 production to atleast 25ac/yr from yr 2021 onwards
> 
> Navy got pretty much juice..airforce needs a squardon or two


2 squadrons of j10c can be a quick fix but it (or any other solution like it) brings along with it lots of non viable maintenance problems etc so


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## Chak Bamu

Mirages being deltas have a different envelope & flight profile and this in itself is important to consider when comparing the cost-benefit vis-a-vis JF-17. The only issue I can think of is the limited space for radar in the sleek nose cone. Other than that new-build Mirages with refinements discussed by @MUSTAKSHAF would be great to have. A turbo fan coupled with weight savings (lighter power-plant & newer materials) could yet take the venerable design to new heights, and at a very good cost-benefit ratio. It could be a multi-year project that would groom great talent.

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## Sine Nomine

Chak Bamu said:


> Mirages being deltas have a different envelope & flight profile and this in itself is important to consider when comparing the cost-benefit vis-a-vis JF-17. The only issue I can think of is the limited space for radar in the sleek nose cone. Other than that new-build Mirages with refinements discussed by @MUSTAKSHAF would be great to have. A turbo fan coupled with weight savings (lighter power-plant & newer materials) could yet take the venerable design to new heights, and at a very good cost-benefit ratio. It could be a multi-year project that would groom great talent.


This project is need of hour citing the fact that PAF isn't sitting idle after ROSE,we are making tweaks here and there in this platform.Airframes are getting old and they would arrive on point when further usage would be dangerous.
We can either go for a new platform using central fuselage of JFT and new cranked arrow delta wings or we can go rebuilding new M3/5 airframes and putting in everything from M3/5 into this.
Just sitting and waiting for Project Azm is suicide.
P.S:-I am sceptical about project Azm,we may be able to design a new airframe but electronics and power pack are out of our range and date of desployment being given is still a decade away.We havn't even seen any offical CGI rendering.

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## Deltadart

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> This project is need of hour citing the fact that PAF isn't sitting idle after ROSE,we are making tweaks here and there in this platform.Airframes are getting old and they would arrive on point when further usage would be dangerous.
> We can either go for a new platform using central fuselage of JFT and new cranked arrow delta wings or we can go rebuilding new M3/5 airframes and putting in everything from M3/5 into this.
> Just sitting and waiting for Project Azm is suicide.
> P.S:-I am sceptical about project Azm,we may be able to design a new airframe but electronics and power pack are out of our range and date of desployment being given is still a decade away.We havn't even seen any offical CGI rendering.


A reworked mirage, whatever name you want to call it, is the need of the time. This project can nicely complement jf17, since they are essentially different types of planes. In this case PAF is not wiser than the outside experts/enthusiasts. We could foolishly go on waiting for more f16s or do something about it. May be a private venture with guarantees from the government/PAF of purchasing few hundred planes from them. May be come up with an upgraded cheetah prototype with south African help and see how it performs.

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## denel

Chak Bamu said:


> Mirages being deltas have a different envelope & flight profile and this in itself is important to consider when comparing the cost-benefit vis-a-vis JF-17. The only issue I can think of is the limited space for radar in the sleek nose cone. Other than that new-build Mirages with refinements discussed by @MUSTAKSHAF would be great to have. A turbo fan coupled with weight savings (lighter power-plant & newer materials) could yet take the venerable design to new heights, and at a very good cost-benefit ratio. It could be a multi-year project that would groom great talent.


Nose cone is easily replaceable. No issue there.
As I said before this is a perfect project for newer kids coming through and building the core base.



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> This project is need of hour citing the fact that PAF isn't sitting idle after ROSE,we are making tweaks here and there in this platform.Airframes are getting old and they would arrive on point when further usage would be dangerous.
> We can either go for a new platform using central fuselage of JFT and new cranked arrow delta wings or we can go rebuilding new M3/5 airframes and putting in everything from M3/5 into this.
> Just sitting and waiting for Project Azm is suicide.
> P.S:-I am sceptical about project Azm,we may be able to design a new airframe but electronics and power pack are out of our range and date of desployment being given is still a decade away.We havn't even seen any offical CGI rendering.


Azm is a wishful thinking imo. I doubt we will ever see the light of it.

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## Quwa

denel said:


> Nose cone is easily replaceable. No issue there.
> As I said before this is a perfect project for newer kids coming through and building the core base.
> 
> 
> Azm is a wishful thinking imo. I doubt we will ever see the light of it.


One shape or another, Project Azm's goal (FGFA) will happen. In the absence of upgrades or access to new versions, the F-16's role as the PAF's top jet is in its final chapter, and the PAF has made it a key priority to get a next gen ITAR free successor.

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## Sine Nomine

Quwa said:


> One shape or another, Project Azm's goal (FGFA) will happen. In the absence of upgrades or access to new versions, the F-16's role as the PAF's top jet is in its final chapter, and the PAF has made it a key priority to get a next gen ITAR free successor.


And that final chapter is a book having many volumes.


denel said:


> Azm is a wishful thinking imo. I doubt we will ever see the light of it.


A lolliop.


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## Haris Ali2140

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> And that final chapter is a book having many volumes.
> 
> A lolliop.


Don't you think it will b a JV either with China or Turkey???


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## Avicenna

Quwa said:


> One shape or another, Project Azm's goal (FGFA) will happen. In the absence of upgrades or access to new versions, the F-16's role as the PAF's top jet is in its final chapter, and the PAF has made it a key priority to get a next gen ITAR free successor.



I agree Azm will happen.

But to rely on it happening is playing with fire.

It would be folly to put reliance on an ambitious 5th gen program without having a plan B or plan C for that matter.

PAF needs breathing room for delay/failure.

There have been precedents set for lack of vision with PAF before.

I fear they are making a huge mistake with overconfidence with Azm.

Unless they know something we at home don't know.


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## khanasifm

Is this mirage capability thread ?


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> 50 mirages and 36 rafales are going to change the whole dynamics ..its 10+ billion dollars investment


How?

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## Chak Bamu

denel said:


> Nose cone is easily replaceable. No issue there.
> As I said before this is a perfect project for newer kids coming through and building the core base.



I am not sure that replacement of the cone would increase the space/diameter available for a radar. Redesigning the nose may be too much work since the whole design would be impacted by this change.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> How?


Bhartis have learned hard lesson on 27th,they won't let that go in vain.
Rafale has one of the best EW /ESM suit in world.Let's take a look at it's suit.






*Spectra electronic warfare suite*
SPECTRA is the first line of defence for the Rafale aircraft, identifying, locating and jamming electromagnetic, infrared and laser threats. Multi-spectral sensors and smart data fusion offer high-sensitivity detection. Spectra’s multiple threat capability, including missile approach warning and decoy dispenser, helps to ensure success in hostile environments.

*AREOS*
Thales’ Airborne REconnaissance Observation System – AREOS – provides rapid day/night imagery intelligence (IMINT) for reconnaissance and identification in any weather conditions. AREOS gathers high-definition imagery at long range and across a wide area, with information transmitted from air to ground via a high-capacity data link.

*DAMOCLES and TALIOS*
Thales’ third-generation laser designation pod, DAMOCLES, provides weapons guidance and a full suite of sensors for navigation and air-to-air target identification. It provides day/night recognition of targets at medium range, as well as long-distance reconnaissance capability. The pod’s infrared sensor is designed to perform effectively in both warm and humid conditions. TALIOS – an updated version of DAMOCLES – is an optronic multifunction pod that employs the latest generation of high-resolution sensors and high precision line-of-sight stabilisation, allowing for deep strikes with long-range missiles and bombs to air-to-air target identification and close air support. It includes Non-Traditional Information, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (NTISR) capabilities and the Permanent Vision system provides wide-angle vision and critical contextual information.

*Communication Navigation Identification suite*
Secure state-of-the-art communication, navigation and identification capabilities covering every operational need, including ECCM (used to combat electronic countermeasures), IFF (identification friend or foe) and tactical data links.

*Advanced Man Machine Interface (MMI)*
Thales’ powerful visualisation tools provide instant situational awareness for the pilot and support well-informed tactical decisions. The MMI solution includes a combined head-up/head level display, lateral displays and a helmet-mounted sight display.

*AESA RBE2*
The Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) RBE2 antenna is a multifunction radar system that provides coverage over long ranges. AESA RBE2 is automatic and highly versatile, sorting and ranking tracked targets, and allowing the pilot to track multiple targets while scanning. It is the first active operational European radar antenna, and provides air-to-air and air-to-surface capabilities.

*Front Sector Optronics (FSO)*
Thales’FSO includes extensive ITcapability with laser electro-optics for passive long-range target detection for air, sea and ground targets, designation and identification, all fully integrated into the aircraft. It allows the pilot to spot enemy aircraft without being detected and is immune to radar jamming because it operates in optical wavelengths.
*A2A and A2G Payload*
MICA IR/EM Missile(upto 80km)
METEOR Missile (upto 150km,60km NEZ)
SCALP stand off missile(upto 560 km)​*Mirage-2000 Upgrade*

The upgrade will bring India’s Mirages to Mirage 2000-V Mk-2.
RDY-3 radar with greater air-air and air-ground capability, a
New night vision compatible all-digital cockpit, and improved electronic warfare systems. These will be tied into a joint tactical information data link system (JTIDS, usually Link 16 compatible but not always),
helmet-mounted sights for wide-angle heat-seeking missiles. As part of the upgrade, the aircraft will also be equipped with MBDA’s Mica family of medium range missiles.
MICA IR missile integration.
Only F-16 is capable of fighting them off and i hope JFTBLK3.
_*Source
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/aerospace/magazine/rafale-defence-realm
https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...the-rafale-next-year/articleshow/71167313.cms
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/indias-fighter-upgrades-mirage-2000s-next-02891/
*_

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> I am not sure that replacement of the cone would increase the space/diameter available for a radar. Redesigning the nose may be too much work since the whole design would be impacted by this change.


I just wonder what the logic of buying the Horus M5s is in light of what you have said. RC400 was chosen for JFT which means 730 mm diameter nose cone. So how has it been placed inside M3/5s? I hope you see where I am coming from.
As a project i think it is worth a punt. However what gains does one gain in what time and what cash layout is required and will OEM create hurdles, is a question one might want an answer to in the first instance. If it is 7 HP, PD radar with a 135 km range range for 10 to 15 million dollars which is maintainable locally ie engine change plus local overhaul infrastructure available then it is definitely worth a try. At best we will get JFTBlock 2 capabilities in a Delta with its own specialized role.
A

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## Haris Ali2140

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Bhartis have learned hard lesson on 27th,they won't let that go in vain.
> Rafale has one of the best EW /ESM suit in world.Let's take a look at it's suit.
> 
> View attachment 580791
> 
> *Spectra electronic warfare suite*
> SPECTRA is the first line of defence for the Rafale aircraft, identifying, locating and jamming electromagnetic, infrared and laser threats. Multi-spectral sensors and smart data fusion offer high-sensitivity detection. Spectra’s multiple threat capability, including missile approach warning and decoy dispenser, helps to ensure success in hostile environments.
> 
> *AREOS*
> Thales’ Airborne REconnaissance Observation System – AREOS – provides rapid day/night imagery intelligence (IMINT) for reconnaissance and identification in any weather conditions. AREOS gathers high-definition imagery at long range and across a wide area, with information transmitted from air to ground via a high-capacity data link.
> 
> *DAMOCLES and TALIOS*
> Thales’ third-generation laser designation pod, DAMOCLES, provides weapons guidance and a full suite of sensors for navigation and air-to-air target identification. It provides day/night recognition of targets at medium range, as well as long-distance reconnaissance capability. The pod’s infrared sensor is designed to perform effectively in both warm and humid conditions. TALIOS – an updated version of DAMOCLES – is an optronic multifunction pod that employs the latest generation of high-resolution sensors and high precision line-of-sight stabilisation, allowing for deep strikes with long-range missiles and bombs to air-to-air target identification and close air support. It includes Non-Traditional Information, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (NTISR) capabilities and the Permanent Vision system provides wide-angle vision and critical contextual information.
> 
> *Communication Navigation Identification suite*
> Secure state-of-the-art communication, navigation and identification capabilities covering every operational need, including ECCM (used to combat electronic countermeasures), IFF (identification friend or foe) and tactical data links.
> 
> *Advanced Man Machine Interface (MMI)*
> Thales’ powerful visualisation tools provide instant situational awareness for the pilot and support well-informed tactical decisions. The MMI solution includes a combined head-up/head level display, lateral displays and a helmet-mounted sight display.
> 
> *AESA RBE2*
> The Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) RBE2 antenna is a multifunction radar system that provides coverage over long ranges. AESA RBE2 is automatic and highly versatile, sorting and ranking tracked targets, and allowing the pilot to track multiple targets while scanning. It is the first active operational European radar antenna, and provides air-to-air and air-to-surface capabilities.
> 
> *Front Sector Optronics (FSO)*
> Thales’FSO includes extensive ITcapability with laser electro-optics for passive long-range target detection for air, sea and ground targets, designation and identification, all fully integrated into the aircraft. It allows the pilot to spot enemy aircraft without being detected and is immune to radar jamming because it operates in optical wavelengths.
> *A2A and A2G Payload*
> MICA IR/EM Missile(upto 80km)
> METEOR Missile (upto 150km,60km NEZ)
> SCALP stand off missile(upto 560 km)​*Mirage-2000 Upgrade*
> 
> The upgrade will bring India’s Mirages to Mirage 2000-V Mk-2.
> RDY-3 radar with greater air-air and air-ground capability, a
> New night vision compatible all-digital cockpit, and improved electronic warfare systems. These will be tied into a joint tactical information data link system (JTIDS, usually Link 16 compatible but not always),
> helmet-mounted sights for wide-angle heat-seeking missiles. As part of the upgrade, the aircraft will also be equipped with MBDA’s Mica family of medium range missiles.
> MICA IR missile integration.
> Only F-16 is capable of fighting them off and i hope JFTBLK3.
> _*Source
> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/aerospace/magazine/rafale-defence-realm
> https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...the-rafale-next-year/articleshow/71167313.cms
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/indias-fighter-upgrades-mirage-2000s-next-02891/
> *_


I am no expert just a 19 years old but the the advantage/disadvantage of electronics is that they are evolving rapidly.


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## M.AsfandYar

Chak Bamu said:


> I am not sure that replacement of the cone would increase the space/diameter available for a radar. Redesigning the nose may be too much work since the whole design would be impacted by this change.


Weight change as suggested above would also change a lot of dynamics and would require rigorous testing........


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## Sine Nomine

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I am no expert just a 19 years old but the the advantage/disadvantage of electronics is that they are evolving rapidly.


I am not either,but fighters are designed to be moduler and even new system are being designed moudler from ground up to accept changes when leap in tech happens.


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## Haris Ali2140

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> I am not either,but fighters are designed to be moduler and even new system are being designed moudler from ground up to accept changes when leap in tech happens.


That's my point.Its all about Tech and who is investing more in the field.Chinese are throwing a lot of money in their military tech.If we play our cards right we can counter Rafale threat.


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## Sine Nomine

Haris Ali2140 said:


> That's my point.Its all about Tech and who is investing more in the field.Chinese are throwing a lot of money in their military tech.If we play our cards right we can counter Rafale threat.


You are right but no one would share their cutting edge system with anyone.
In case chinese,they are still behind EU in electronics.


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## Haris Ali2140

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> You are right but no one would share their cutting edge system with anyone.
> In case chinese,they are still behind EU in electronics.


They will sell as long as we are aligned with them and have money.We just need to improve our economy.They are catching up fast.They are also improving relationships with EU countries.


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## Sine Nomine

Haris Ali2140 said:


> They will sell as long as we are aligned with them and have money.We just need to improve our economy.


Hope so.


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## Quwa

Avicenna said:


> I agree Azm will happen.
> 
> But to rely on it happening is playing with fire.
> 
> It would be folly to put reliance on an ambitious 5th gen program without having a plan B or plan C for that matter.
> 
> PAF needs breathing room for delay/failure.
> 
> There have been precedents set for lack of vision with PAF before.
> 
> I fear they are making a huge mistake with overconfidence with Azm.
> 
> Unless they know something we at home don't know.


I don't think they have much of a choice aside from Project Azm. The money needed for enough Typhoons would fully scuttle a FGFA, so that brings us back to putting all eggs in one basket. An interim J-10CE buy may help, but the PLAAF isn't enthusiastic about exporting it. Sino-Flankers are a no-go, while buying from Russia invites sanctions.

Basically, Azm has less to do with ambition, and more of necessity (like JF-17). The fundamental difference between the two is that Azm is meant to be a high performance fighter, while JF-17 is a low cost fleet builder.

The contingency, if anything, is to continue evolving the JF-17. Perhaps develop a new gen low cost fighter using the JF-17 as the basis (e.g. one of the KF-X proposals in South Korea was a reworked T-50).

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## Haris Ali2140

Quwa said:


> I don't think they have much of a choice aside from Project Azm. The money needed for enough Typhoons would fully scuttle a FGFA, so that brings us back to putting all eggs in one basket. An interim J-10CE buy may help, but the PLAAF isn't enthusiastic about exporting it. Sino-Flankers are a no-go, while buying from Russia invites sanctions.
> 
> Basically, Azm has less to do with ambition, and more of necessity (like JF-17). The fundamental difference between the two is that Azm is meant to be a high performance fighter, while JF-17 is a low cost fleet builder.
> 
> The contingency, if anything, is to continue evolving the JF-17. Perhaps develop a new gen low cost fighter using the JF-17 as the basis (e.g. one of the KF-X proposals in South Korea was a reworked T-50).


What about collaboration with TAI FX???


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## Quwa

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What about collaboration with TAI FX???


If that happens, it'd still fall under the scope of Azm, except now as a joint venture instead of alone.

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## Haris Ali2140

Quwa said:


> If that happens, it'd still fall under the scope of Azm, except now as a joint venture instead of alone.


I think the design will be ours as we want a single engine variant but the engine and avionics will be the same(either chinese or turkish).


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## SipahSalar

Quwa said:


> One shape or another, Project Azm's goal (FGFA) will happen. In the absence of upgrades or access to new versions, the F-16's role as the PAF's top jet is in its final chapter, and the PAF has made it a key priority to get a next gen ITAR free successor.


Japan cancelled its own fifth generation fighter program in favor of F-35s. It was simply too expensive to build an entirely new stealth fighter compared to just buying from USA. It is hard to see Pakistan succeeding with its meager resources.

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## Quwa

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I think the design will be ours as we want a single engine variant but the engine and avionics will be the same(either chinese or turkish).


The PAF CAS said Azm will be twin engine.

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## Haris Ali2140

Quwa said:


> The PAF CAS said Azm will be twin engine.


OK I didn't knew that.


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## Quwa

SipahSalar said:


> Japan cancelled its own fifth generation fighter program in favor of F-35s. It was simply too expensive to build an entirely new stealth fighter compared to just buying from USA. It is hard to see Pakistan succeeding with its meager resources.


It depends on what you're trying to build. 

Japan was probably looking for F-35 like capabilities from the start, which would've made their project very expensive. 

The PAF might take a staged approach where the first variants of the Azm will be very basic, e.g., get an AESA radar with twin engines and more payload in the air. And from there develop further by adding DEWs or supercruise, etc. 

Plus, the PAF will probably *not* take LO seriously in the beginning either.

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## araz

SipahSalar said:


> Japan cancelled its own fifth generation fighter program in favor of F-35s. It was simply too expensive to build an entirely new stealth fighter compared to just buying from USA. It is hard to see Pakistan succeeding with its meager resources.


Japan has a choice. We dont! I will go out on a limb and say we are a potential adversary for the whole world so they would not want to arm us. The chinese have their own troubles with the Uighurs so may want to be cautious. Plus we are their cash cow so why would they want us to be independent. So we have to and we will by hook and crook. The example of Turkey is a good one if you want to guage the world stance against a muslim country. Why do you think they are going down that line.
A

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## Deltadart

Getting back to the main topic of mirages. I think we must think along the lines of kfir block 60, and with south african help, come up with a plane that can take on what India is expected to throw out there in a decade or so. Keep working on azm and jf17, but please don't neglect the mirage development.

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## jamal18

Deltadart said:


> Getting back to the main topic of mirages. I think we must think along the lines of kfir block 60, and with south african help, come up with a planes that can take on what India is expected to throw out there in a decade or so. Keep working on azm and jf17, but please don't neglect the mirage development.



Do we need South African help? This is the one project in which we can safely say that we have full design and build capability. Plus hiring 'foreign experts' is the path of increasing costs; our labour force is far cheaper, and everything can be financed in rupees.


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## Deltadart

jamal18 said:


> Do we need South African help? This is the one project in which we can safely say that we have full design and build capability. Plus hiring 'foreign experts' is the path of increasing costs; our labour force is far cheaper, and everything can be financed in rupees.


Jamal, as long as we don't reinvent the wheel, we should go alone, but SA has tons of experience working on mirages and we can surely benefit from them.

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## Quwa

araz said:


> Japan has a choice. We dont! I will go out on a limb and say we are a potential adversary for the whole world so they would not want to arm us. The chinese have their own troubles with the Uighurs so may want to be cautious. Plus we are their cash cow so why would they want us to be independent. So we have to and we will by hook and crook. The example of Turkey is a good one if you want to guage the world stance against a muslim country. Why do you think they are going down that line.
> A


Yep, it's a case of desperation and, in a way, long term thinking. The PAF is saying, "we can't rely on anyone in 10 years." Ironically this was the same line of thought that drove the nuclear weapons program -- we stopped believing in friends after 1971. That said, there are other countries around the world that understand where we're coming from, e.g. South Africa, Ukraine, etc.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What's the possibility of Upgrading all Mirage jets with Turkish Avionics?
They have a wonderful local program, we could request some custom Kits for Mirage

To my understanding, if Computer System in Mirage fleet is upgraded it would also mean an upgrade on radar , turkish systems are compatible with

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## denel

jamal18 said:


> Do we need South African help? This is the one project in which we can safely say that we have full design and build capability. Plus hiring 'foreign experts' is the path of increasing costs; our labour force is far cheaper, and everything can be financed in rupees.


Jamal - where did you think IFRs, H2/H4+ integrations, Raad derivation amongst countless other goodies came from without South African involvement. We are not like others.
Yes labour force is cheap but how can you quantify the fact that MRF is incapable of building basic new wings or even a clone of the airframe given they have stripped down the M3/5 countless times.
What Atlas brings to the table is complete Cheetah blueprints and turnkey know how to chart the path forward.
We always make a plan... the biggest question is will you make a plan?

Edit: HMD/S is integral part of Cheetah and of course Darter will be easily available.

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## mingle

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> What's the possibility of Upgrading all Mirage jets with Turkish Avionics?
> They have a wonderful local program, we could request some custom Kits for Mirage
> 
> To my understanding, if Computer System in Mirage fleet is upgraded it would also mean an upgrade on radar , turkish systems are compatible with


Mirages are too old now plus we have program with SEGAM making things local with theior help


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## GriffinsRule

Quwa said:


> It depends on what you're trying to build.
> 
> Japan was probably looking for F-35 like capabilities from the start, which would've made their project very expensive.
> 
> The PAF might take a staged approach where the first variants of the Azm will be very basic, e.g., get an AESA radar with twin engines and more payload in the air. And from there develop further by adding DEWs or supercruise, etc.
> 
> Plus, the PAF will probably *not* take LO seriously in the beginning either.



I disagree with you there totally. The hallmark of a NGF (5th gen) that AZM is envisioning is the LO feature. Without that, its just building a 4th gen aircraft, which we already will have in the shape of JF-17. Thing like supercruise, its ability to direct UAVs, manage the battle space for 4th gen fighters etc ... all those features can be added in as upgrades, but getting the fundamental right is the game, and that is a low observable airframe, designed so it can handle future upgrades. We already see an learning curves with the Chinese designs, and they have made mistakes in J-10 and even JF-17, for eg. both had intakes design changed, and in terms of JF-17s, the proportions are changing again. Thus the hardest part is designing the airframe right and modular enough to accommodate new technologies as well as engines etc. We can expect that jet to be in service for 30-40 years or more. 



SipahSalar said:


> Japan cancelled its own fifth generation fighter program in favor of F-35s. It was simply too expensive to build an entirely new stealth fighter compared to just buying from USA. It is hard to see Pakistan succeeding with its meager resources.



As for the Japanese, though its not related to this thread, Ill add it here to just correct the narrative. The program is not cancelled and Japan is going to be building its stealth fighter to replace their F-2s (F-16 knockoffs). The X-2 (ATD-X) was just a technology demonstrator and used to test new materials and designs. Take a look at the timelines of this jet and we can extrapolate what our program or the Turkish one for that matter will take to complete. 
https://www.janes.com/article/86159/japan-prioritises-locally-developed-future-fighter

The F-3 performance requirements are to be finalized by 2020 and development to officially begin in 2021 with 2030 as a target! That is after they started with the X-2 business in 2006! AZM ETA will be 2035-2040 so plenty of time for an interim fighters (F-16s cough cough)



denel said:


> Jamal - where did you think IFRs, H2/H4+ integrations, Raad derivation amongst countless other goodies came from without South African involvement. We are not like others.
> Yes labour force is cheap but how can you quantify the fact that MRF is incapable of building basic new wings or even a clone of the airframe given they have stripped down the M3/5 countless times.
> What Atlas brings to the table is complete Cheetah blueprints and turnkey know how to chart the path forward.
> We always make a plan... the biggest question is will you make a plan?
> 
> Edit: HMD/S is integral part of Cheetah and of course Darter will be easily available.



It has been over a decade since Atlas Cheetah was taken out of service and people retire, forget or move on to other aircraft. So the expertise might not be as widely available in the future. But again, if the idea is to manufacture a 60s-70s design, might as well go for the Mirage F-1, which was better in almost every term over the Mirage 3/5s


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## Signalian

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Only F-16 is capable of fighting them off and i hope JFTBLK3.


Yups, those are the thorns for IAF's Rafale/SU 30/M2K/Mig-29..... You said it yourself

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well the reason why I referred the Turkish system is that these are pretty much European standard at least up to F16 C/D level avionics features

Would make sense if we can manufacture 99% of Mirage plane, might as well upgrade the Avionics package on the 130-150 units

a) Turkish Avionics Package
b) European Radar which is compatible with the Avionics package

If you upgrade the flight computers , pretty much you have made a massive update on Jets


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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> Yups, those are the thorns for IAF's Rafale/SU 30/M2K/Mig-29..... You said it yourself


Number game.


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## Signalian

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Number game.


Numbers.....What are JF-17's for ?

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> Numbers.....What are JF-17's for ?


Let's see,we need tonhave 300 of them acting as workhorse.


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## Chak Bamu

araz said:


> I just wonder what the logic of buying the Horus M5s is in light of what you have said. RC400 was chosen for JFT which means 730 mm diameter nose cone. So how has it been placed inside M3/5s? I hope you see where I am coming from.
> As a project i think it is worth a punt. However what gains does one gain in what time and what cash layout is required and will OEM create hurdles, is a question one might want an answer to in the first instance. If it is 7 HP, PD radar with a 135 km range range for 10 to 15 million dollars which is maintainable locally ie engine change plus local overhaul infrastructure available then it is definitely worth a try. At best we will get JFTBlock 2 capabilities in a Delta with its own specialized role.
> A



Dear @araz I just pointed out what I think is the weakest link in this hypothetical initiative. The size of the radar matters and it could be the limiting factor in this case. All else falls in place. 

If I allow myself to be greedy, I would go for incorporation of the composite-made slats with radar absorbent materials to reduce the RCS; and while doing this, explore the possibility of DSI. But then all this costs money, time, & requires resources that may be spent elsewhere for greater returns.

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## jamal18

denel said:


> Jamal - where did you think IFRs, H2/H4+ integrations, Raad derivation amongst countless other goodies came from without South African involvement. We are not like others.
> Yes labour force is cheap but how can you quantify the fact that MRF is incapable of building basic new wings or even a clone of the airframe given they have stripped down the M3/5 countless times.
> What Atlas brings to the table is complete Cheetah blueprints and turnkey know how to chart the path forward.
> We always make a plan... the biggest question is will you make a plan?
> 
> Edit: HMD/S is integral part of Cheetah and of course Darter will be easily available.



Yes, this is what I find worrying. We can follow, but we can't lead. MRF by now knows as much about the mirage as Dassault, but we still can't make anything for it by ourselves. I would have thought that to make the frame and wings by ourselves would be a walk in the park. Sadly not.


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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> I disagree with you there totally. The hallmark of a NGF (5th gen) that AZM is envisioning is the LO feature. Without that, its just building a 4th gen aircraft, which we already will have in the shape of JF-17. Thing like supercruise, its ability to direct UAVs, manage the battle space for 4th gen fighters etc ... all those features can be added in as upgrades, but getting the fundamental right is the game, and that is a low observable airframe, designed so it can handle future upgrades. We already see an learning curves with the Chinese designs, and they have made mistakes in J-10 and even JF-17, for eg. both had intakes design changed, and in terms of JF-17s, the proportions are changing again. Thus the hardest part is designing the airframe right and modular enough to accommodate new technologies as well as engines etc. We can expect that jet to be in service for 30-40 years or more.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the Japanese, though its not related to this thread, Ill add it here to just correct the narrative. The program is not cancelled and Japan is going to be building its stealth fighter to replace their F-2s (F-16 knockoffs). The X-2 (ATD-X) was just a technology demonstrator and used to test new materials and designs. Take a look at the timelines of this jet and we can extrapolate what our program or the Turkish one for that matter will take to complete.
> https://www.janes.com/article/86159/japan-prioritises-locally-developed-future-fighter
> 
> The F-3 performance requirements are to be finalized by 2020 and development to officially begin in 2021 with 2030 as a target! That is after they started with the X-2 business in 2006! AZM ETA will be 2035-2040 so plenty of time for an interim fighters (F-16s cough cough)
> 
> 
> 
> It has been over a decade since Atlas Cheetah was taken out of service and people retire, forget or move on to other aircraft. So the expertise might not be as widely available in the future. But again, if the idea is to manufacture a 60s-70s design, might as well go for the Mirage F-1, which was better in almost every term over the Mirage 3/5s


most of cheetah infra is still there; we still have to support all the clients who bought Cheetahs to replace their F1s.

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## Sine Nomine

Chak Bamu said:


> If I allow myself to be greedy, I would go for incorporation of the composite-made slats with radar absorbent materials to reduce the RCS; and while doing this, explore the possibility of DSI. But then all this costs money, time, & requires resources that may be spent elsewhere for greater returns.


Just rebuilding new airfarmes and using new power plant would be enough.It would allow us to operate them beyond 2030,while upgarding them in long time.

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## Quwa

jamal18 said:


> Yes, this is what I find worrying. We can follow, but we can't lead. MRF by now knows as much about the mirage as Dassault, but we still can't make anything for it by ourselves. I would have thought that to make the frame and wings by ourselves would be a walk in the park. Sadly not.


It can be a capacity limit too. The JF-17 is taking up PAC's jigs and tooling, so in this case, it might be cheaper to work with some company like Denel which already has the infrastructure in place than to frontload overhead costs on doing it at home.

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## Deltadart

Quwa said:


> It can be a capacity limit too. The JF-17 is taking up PAC's jigs and tooling, so in this case, it might be cheaper to work with some company like Denel which already has the infrastructure in place than to frontload overhead costs on doing it at home.


All of us are advising the PAF on the benefits of upgrading and building new mirages, but they will as usual do nothing. They will just keep praying, hoping and begging for more f16s..... And keep getting turned down and humiliated, over and over again. The enemy keeps upgrading their fleet and we are sleeping.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Since Pakistan can manufacture all parts, upgrading mirages is not a bad proposition
From what I heard in the mirage documentary, that we make close to 80-95% components for plane or even 100%

What I would suggest is to, strip out the old computer system from 90's 0r 2000's whenever the last upgrade was done and just work with Turkish Avionics company and have them fit the avionics in Mirage planes and also the computer system

a) Custom design Avionics cockpit holders
b) The actual Avionics
c) New radar for the Mirage working with other partners
d) The Weapons would work since Turkish stuff is Euro compliant


All the Analog gizmos of Mirage can be changed with just 2 Big screen as in the image below
Drastically modernizing the planes






The new Avionics system may also have support for HUD helmets
Since Turkish stuff is all made (Ready) It would just be assembly and installation and testing

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

I came across a video on our Mirages, a bit rudimentary but still worth having a peep!

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## denel

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Since Pakistan can manufacture all parts, upgrading mirages is not a bad proposition
> From what I heard in the mirage documentary, that we make close to 80-95% components for plane or even 100%
> 
> What I would suggest is to, strip out the old computer system from 90's 0r 2000's whenever the last upgrade was done and just work with Turkish Avionics company and have them fit the avionics in Mirage planes and also the computer system
> 
> a) Custom design Avionics cockpit holders
> b) The actual Avionics
> c) New radar for the Mirage working with other partners
> d) The Weapons would work since Turkish stuff is Euro compliant
> 
> 
> All the Analog gizmos of Mirage can be changed with just 2 Big screen as in the image below
> Drastically modernizing the planes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new Avionics system may also have support for HUD helmets
> Since Turkish stuff is all made (Ready) It would just be assembly and installation and testing


Let us start with the airframe/wings/engine first.



Deltadart said:


> All of us are advising the PAF on the benefits of upgrading and building new mirages, but they will as usual do nothing. They will just keep praying, hoping and begging for more f16s..... And keep getting turned down and humiliated, over and over again. The enemy keeps upgrading their fleet and we are sleeping.


That is exactly my point; not sure what happened to mastaankhan?

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## monitor

Quwa said:


> It depends on what you're trying to build.
> 
> Japan was probably looking for F-35 like capabilities from the start, which would've made their project very expensive.
> 
> The PAF might take a staged approach where the first variants of the Azm will be very basic, e.g., get an AESA radar with twin engines and more payload in the air. And from there develop further by adding DEWs or supercruise, etc.
> 
> Plus, the PAF will probably *not* take LO seriously in the beginning either.



By the time Pakistan get their hands on a fifth generation fighter the advantages of LO will start decreasing and more emphasis will be on other feature .


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## Deltadart

@denel
We know that PAF left on its own will do nothing about mirages. So how about Atlas or it's successor come up with a proposal to further upgrade the cheetah, and if PAF is interested in a joint venture or something, and willing to procure few hundred birds , and then build a prototype and see where it takes us? What do you think?


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## denel

Deltadart said:


> @denel
> We know that PAF left on its own will do nothing about mirages. So how about Atlas or it's successor come up with a proposal to further upgrade the cheetah, and if PAF is interested in a joint venture or something, and willing to procure few hundred birds , and then build a prototype and see where it takes us? What do you think?


Even more we need Pak to recognise they are stuck with Mirages and then engage Denel dynamic for a proposal. We have done a lot of discussions and they show up time to time to sign up various agreements but never follow through.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Even more we need Pak to recognise they are stuck with Mirages and then engage Denel dynamic for a proposal. We have done a lot of discussions and they show up time to time to sign up various agreements but never follow through.


I think Pakistan is more involved with making cruise missile with SA help then aircraft as it appears. Among PGM's too.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/babur-cruise-missile-database.185609/page-29#post-11789128

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## Haris Ali2140

denel said:


> Even more we need Pak to recognise they are stuck with Mirages and then engage Denel dynamic for a proposal. We have done a lot of discussions and they show up time to time to sign up various agreements but never follow through.


Will these upgrades will make them BVR capable???


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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> I think Pakistan is more involved with making cruise missile with SA help then aircraft as it appears. Among PGM's too.
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/babur-cruise-missile-database.185609/page-29#post-11789128


Yes those are kept silent. There is sensitivity around strategic avenues.


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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Even more we need Pak to recognise they are stuck with Mirages and then engage Denel dynamic for a proposal. We have done a lot of discussions and they show up time to time to sign up various agreements but never follow through.


I had no idea that denel dynamics has already tried that route. Then all I can say is that it is pathetic and diaguisting that PAF would just sit idle and let Indians dominate the air with their new acquisitions. It seems like they are content with that outcome.
If anything on feb 27th, the mirages accomplished the most dangerous missions successfully. In light of that PAF should value their mirages more and do what we have been discussing here.


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## CHI RULES

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Will these upgrades will make them BVR capable???


The coming Mirage Horus have radar range of 100 KM against fighter jets and are capable to deploy various modern BVRs. There are rumors that perhaps even Mirage rose were armed with SA BVRs.

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## Haris Ali2140

CHI RULES said:


> The coming Mirage Horus have radar range of 100 KM against fighter jets and are capable to deploy various modern BVRs. There are rumors that perhaps even Mirage rose were armed with SA BVRs.


Well if we upgrade all of our Mirages to BVR capable then it will be a huge accomplishment and a big boost to PAF.
Why can't we take Mirage air frame and accommodate it to our needs???
@denel @Quwa @Signalian @messiach @Dazzler

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Chak Bamu said:


> Dear @araz I just pointed out what I think is the weakest link in this hypothetical initiative. The size of the radar matters and it could be the limiting factor in this case. All else falls in place.
> 
> If I allow myself to be greedy, I would go for incorporation of the composite-made slats with radar absorbent materials to reduce the RCS; and while doing this, explore the possibility of DSI. But then all this costs money, time, & requires resources that may be spent elsewhere for greater returns.




Surely in modern times, some company out there has manufactured a radar which could fit in Mirage

The odd difference in Mirages at Nose, is, of course, visible so I would imagine size is limited
However, I think with some engineering and Innovation the nose can be adjusted to fit a modern Generation radar 













However if, we wanted to modernize the fleet of 150 jets (mirage fleet ....)
we could create a separate tender for radar just for mirage fleet's need

Much cheaper to just get new radar which fits vs replacing *150 planes



Gripen's radar for comparison











Grifo-E appears a very tidy small radar (AESA)



*

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## denel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Will these upgrades will make them BVR capable???





AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Surely in modern times, some company out there has manufactured a radar which could fit in Mirage
> 
> The odd difference in Mirages at Nose, is, of course, visible so I would imagine size is limited
> However, I think with some engineering and Innovation the nose can be adjusted to fit a modern Generation radar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However if, we wanted to modernize the fleet of 150 jets (mirage fleet ....)
> we could create a separate tender for radar just for mirage fleet's need
> 
> Much cheaper to just get new radar which fits vs replacing *150 planes
> 
> 
> 
> Gripen's radar for comparison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grifo-E appears a very tidy small radar (AESA)
> 
> 
> 
> *


Look carefully at the M3's - you answered your own question - that nose cone is a modified that carries Grifo-M radar. We mod'd ours to carry the Elta one.

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## Myth_buster_1

denel said:


> Even more we need Pak to recognise they are stuck with Mirages and then engage Denel dynamic for a proposal. We have done a lot of discussions and they show up time to time to sign up various agreements but never follow through.


So PAF is that kind of women who will ask salesman to show everything line them up on counter and say I will comeback.

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## Deltadart

Myth_buster_1 said:


> So PAF is that kind of women who will ask salesman to show everything line them up on counter and say I will comeback.


Yes, a lady in waiting for her perfect husband (f16s) to come back, and the old prospect who is always availabe for getting married (mirages) is ignored..

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## Quwa

Myth_buster_1 said:


> So PAF is that kind of women who will ask salesman to show everything line them up on counter and say I will comeback.


tbh that's the behavior of many Pakistani uncles... walks in to negotiate for a Merc/BMW, walks out to sign the deal for a Corolla. The Mirage is like the old 86 that is really cool to those who know what it's about.

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## jupiter2007

Unfortunately Pakistani can build the frame for mirage....with newer frame and better avionics/Radar, Mirage can challenge any 3.5 generation fighter.

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## denel

Quwa said:


> tbh that's the behavior of many Pakistani uncles... walks in to negotiate for a Merc/BMW, walks out to sign the deal for a Corolla. The Mirage is like the old 86 that is really cool to those who know what it's about.


Yes these uncle papas forget that Corollas are poor mans's mercedes. they just keep going right . 

My corolla has over 450k on the clock and no complaints. keeps going and going. 21yrs in and never stopped. Hilux is over 700k plus 2 clutches replaced. For farm use i rely on 2 Samil surplus trucks for cattle transports.

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## BRAVO_

Quwa said:


> tbh that's the behavior of many Pakistani uncles... walks in to negotiate for a Merc/BMW, walks out to sign the deal for a Corolla. The Mirage is like the old 86 that is really cool to those who know what it's about.


100% agreed ... for years we listened indian media keep praising about their Mig-21s, they upgraded it time by time with the help of Israel and Russia but when it appeared in front of opponent it bring humiliation for entire nation, in its own time in 19th century Mirage was a good aircraft but its time is over let it be retire with honor and dignity

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## Quwa

BRAVO_ said:


> 100% agreed ... for years we listened indian media keep praising about their Mig-21s, they upgraded it time by time with the help of Israel and Russia but when it appeared in front of opponent it bring humiliation for entire nation, in its own time in 19th century Mirage was a good aircraft but its time is over let it be retire with honor and dignity


I'd say the difference is that the folks asking for a Mirage reframe want an extra few squadrons of SOW carriers. So, attack distant targets from well within Pakistani borders, don't cross them. For that role a refresh is a good idea. It'll free up the JF-17s for air-to-air, which makes accessing Pakistani airspace tougher.

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## Deltadart

Quwa said:


> I'd say the difference is that the folks asking for a Mirage reframe want an extra few squadrons of SOW carriers. So, attack distant targets from well within Pakistani borders, don't cross them. For that role a refresh is a good idea. It'll free up the JF-17s for air-to-air, which makes accessing Pakistani airspace tougher.


Fact is upgraded/new mirages are a necessity. The number of f16s will not increase. Jf17s will do fine for what they are designed. So there is still a need for large number of mirages to accomplish other missions. If we get rid of mirages then what is going to take their place? Our economic condition is not exemplary, and besides , not many sellers out there who would sell us what we want. I don't see any urgency on the part of PAF in this regard. God help us.

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## SQ8

Deltadart said:


> Fact is upgraded/new mirages are a necessity. The number of f16s will not increase. Jf17s will do fine for what they are designed. So there is still a need for large number of mirages to accomplish other missions. If we get rid of mirages then what is going to take their place? Our economic condition is not exemplary, and besides , not many sellers out there who would sell us what we want. I don't see any urgency on the part of PAF in this regard. God help us.


Lets rephrase that to a new strike platform is a necessity. PAF is extremely happy with the JF-17 in the air combat role , the F-16 provides a good mix as well. They want a replacement for the Mirages as the deep strike platform.

Since no M2Ks are available, and besides the J-10 there is nothing we can afford; the only option is to prolong the life of the mirages we have by total overhaul and replacement of key fuselage sections as needed.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Lets rephrase that to a new strike platform is a necessity. PAF is extremely happy with the JF-17 in the air combat role , the F-16 provides a good mix as well. They want a replacement for the Mirages as the deep strike platform.
> 
> Since no M2Ks are available, and besides the J-10 there is nothing we can afford; the only option is to prolong the life of the mirages we have by total overhaul and replacement of key fuselage sections as needed.


Honestly, even if the PAF could field a new strike platform (the original plan was for 36 new fighters) for strategic roles and offload all conventional strike work to the JF-17, there's a benefit to having additional strike platforms in the Mirage III/5. If anything, it's 3~5 squadrons of nuclear attack fighters; and with much reduced operations, the PAF can keep them around for a very long time. If anything, it's dozens of additional headaches for India (especially now since we've proved the Mirages are a credible strike threat).

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## Dreamer.

The question that has never been answered is that why PAF can't get another strike platform? Sure western and russian options may be difficult but the chinese option is open. If we can do JF-17 than why not a delta platform in similar league?
Neither a new joint project for a delta plane in jf-17 league, nor existing chinese planes i.e. J-10 or JH-7 etc. nor even the so called 'advanced mirages' with new airframes (the idea that is being discussed here) are too difficult to get done for the PAF.

Yet, if there is no movement in this regard then I think that PAF probably feels that it has enough mirages itself and also enough are available in the world (and accessible too for PAF) to make the need for new airframes unnecessary. It would mean that PAF feels that not only enough planes are there but also that upgrades can be done to existing airframes that are sufficient for its requirements and hence no need to go build one might say a 'Mirage Neo'.

As for a new strike platform, I suspect that PAF wants it but has set its sights higher and is willing to wait for it up until the time that it can do no more with mirages. Unfortunately that _time_ might be some time yet......


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## araz

Dreamer. said:


> The question that has never been answered is that why PAF can't get another strike platform? Sure western and russian options may be difficult but the chinese option is open. If we can do JF-17 than why not a delta platform in similar league?
> Neither a new joint project for a delta plane in jf-17 league, nor existing chinese planes i.e. J-10 or JH-7 etc. nor even the so called 'advanced mirages' with new airframes (the idea that is being discussed here) are too difficult to get done for the PAF.
> 
> Yet, if there is no movement in this regard then I think that PAF probably feels that it has enough mirages itself and also enough are available in the world (and accessible too for PAF) to make the need for new airframes unnecessary. It would mean that PAF feels that not only enough planes are there but also that upgrades can be done to existing airframes that are sufficient for its requirements and hence no need to go build one might say a 'Mirage Neo'.
> 
> As for a new strike platform, I suspect that PAF wants it but has set its sights higher and is willing to wait for it up until the time that it can do no more with mirages. Unfortunately that _time_ might be some time yet......


Finances have been a problem. Till fairly recently the J10 used the AL31 engine which was not cleared by Russia for sle to PAF. Now that the WS10 series are being produced and maturing it has become possible for us to talk about procuring them. The last point is that J10 is pretty near to JFT in range and capability so people have been thinking about what it brings on the table to buy it if the capabilities are in the ball park. J11/16 on the other hand might be a better bet if it can be bought (a big if) .
A

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## Dreamer.

araz said:


> The last point is that J10 is pretty near to JFT in range and capability so people have been thinking about what it brings on the table to buy it if the capabilities are in the ball park. J11/16 on the other hand might be a better bet if it can be bought (a big if)


Hence my point that PAF has set its sights higher and is willing to wait for better options.

As for the J-10, is it similar in range? wouldn't make sense given it is much bigger plane. Besides if PAF prefers a delta for strike than J-10 is a delta.

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## Deltadart

Nothing wrong with setting the sights high, but also be mindful of what we can actually afford to acquire, and not be waiting forever for the dream plane.

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> We mod'd


On lighter note how much testing and change was done to make it happen?


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## mshan44



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## Ali_Baba

Credit to PAF, the Mirages which are as old as the IAF Mig21s look so much better maintained than the IAF Mig21s, the different is night and day. The Mirage rebuild factory was worth the investment and has paid for itself, many times over now.

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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> On lighter note how much testing and change was done to make it happen?


Not much effort; remember we already had experience with mod'd original M3 and F1 for HMS, Kukris as well as other integration points; 20 yrs back did TEWA on Cheetah platform nothing complex.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Honestly, even if the PAF could field a new strike platform (the original plan was for 36 new fighters) for strategic roles and offload all conventional strike work to the JF-17, there's a benefit to having additional strike platforms in the Mirage III/5. If anything, it's 3~5 squadrons of nuclear attack fighters; and with much reduced operations, the PAF can keep them around for a very long time. If anything, it's dozens of additional headaches for India (especially now since we've proved the Mirages are a credible strike threat).


Absolutely, this is why a new upgrade is a necessity to create a standardised modern M3/5. There is nothing better on the plate right now.

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## khanasifm

If looks can Kill

nothing to do with looks soviet and French technology’s of 50 were different and approach different

Some of the concept are different no th has pro can cons 


Cheers


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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Not much effort; remember we already had experience with mod'd original M3 and F1 for HMS, Kukris as well as other integration points; 20 yrs back did TEWA on Cheetah platform nothing complex.
> 
> 
> Absolutely, this is why a new upgrade is a necessity to create a standardised modern M3/5. There is nothing better on the plate right now.


I am beginning to think that all these discussions are a waste of time. Those who should be seriously planning for this upgrade are dreaming day and night about f16s. They couldn't careless. If they wanted to go for cheetah upgrade then they would have done it already. As you stated earlier that your firm approached PAF with various proposals regarding mirages, but no one was serious about it.
Enemy is watching us closely. They have learned their lessons from the encounter earlier this year. Next time they will come with their new stuff and well prepared to take on PAF. But we will be fighting with exactly the same stuff, without any upgrades. Not a good situation to be in.

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## araz

Oscar said:


> Lets rephrase that to a new strike platform is a necessity. PAF is extremely happy with the JF-17 in the air combat role , the F-16 provides a good mix as well. They want a replacement for the Mirages as the deep strike platform.
> 
> Since no M2Ks are available, and besides the J-10 there is nothing we can afford; the only option is to prolong the life of the mirages we have by total overhaul and replacement of key fuselage sections as needed.





Ali_Baba said:


> Credit to PAF, the Mirages which are as old as the IAF Mig21s look so much better maintained than the IAF Mig21s, the different is night and day. The Mirage rebuild factory was worth the investment and has paid for itself, many times over now.


True but there is a very vast difference between the USSR and French designs and robustness. The J7 series has a frame life of 2000 hours whereas M3 frames are designed for 8000hrs. The design philosophies were vastly different as were expertise in building materials

A

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## denel

Deltadart said:


> I am beginning to think that all these discussions are a waste of time. Those who should be seriously planning for this upgrade are dreaming day and night about f16s. They couldn't careless. If they wanted to go for cheetah upgrade then they would have done it already. As you stated earlier that your firm approached PAF with various proposals regarding mirages, but no one was serious about it.
> Enemy is watching us closely. They have learned their lessons from the encounter earlier this year. Next time they will come with their new stuff and well prepared to take on PAF. But we will be fighting with exactly the same stuff, without any upgrades. Not a good situation to be in.


It is a complete waste of time discussion; it is 2 decades now - yes, they got the IFRs from us that are on M's plus other goodies; IFRs then go over to JF17s. Cheetah/Shaheen platform as i named it is a no brainer - remember we replaced the archaic 9C with 9K engine on all Cheetahs; plus a demo with RD engine.
What we have observed of Pak is simple, they prefer to get into a bad state before doing anything. Even then they dont wake up. God help us all
I saw IK's speech in UN. He is 200% on the spot. He is the first PM who i respect and spoke from the heart.



BRAVO_ said:


> 100% agreed ... for years we listened indian media keep praising about their Mig-21s, they upgraded it time by time with the help of Israel and Russia but when it appeared in front of opponent it bring humiliation for entire nation, in its own time in 19th century Mirage was a good aircraft but its time is over let it be retire with honor and dignity


Disagree with you. It is exactly that reason why it needs to be reworked into a next gen platform. All the pieces are there but there is no will from Pak side. There are no monies else where. As noted before at least put 60 of these into cheetah type upgrade for strategic role.

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## Deltadart

I think the entire Mirage fleet should under go this upgrade, as more funds become available. But, the will and the determination to get it done has to be there.
Do you think if Kfir block 60 is the ultimate iteration of mirages, than can we come up with something that is just as advanced if not more in collaboration with S.A? I think such a bird will provide the PAF with some fantastic offensive punch.
PAF hierarchy needs to come out of their golf courses and clubs and think seriously about the above, because the RSS thugs (all of Indian armed forces) are coming for us, it's only a matter of time. 
It was our conventional air power that put some fear of God in to the enemy, so we must do more to enhance it. Talk peace but keep sharpening the swords.

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## Sine Nomine

araz said:


> The design philosophies were vastly different as were expertise in building materials


More to do with combat doctrine,soviets were staunch supporters of saturation attacks.


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## denel

Deltadart said:


> I think the entire Mirage fleet should under go this upgrade, as more funds become available. But, the will and the determination to get it done has to be there.
> Do you think if Kfir block 60 is the ultimate iteration of mirages, than can we come up with something that is just as advanced if not more in collaboration with S.A? I think such a bird will provide the PAF with some fantastic offensive punch.
> PAF hierarchy needs to come out of their golf courses and clubs and think seriously about the above, because the RSS thugs (all of Indian armed forces) are coming for us, it's only a matter of time.
> It was our conventional air power that put some fear of God in to the enemy, so we must do more to enhance it. Talk peace but keep sharpening the swords.


That is exactly what i have been saying for decades. There is no other choice. With RSS and their nazi mentality, the leadership as MastanKhan used to say are corrupt and self interested.

Cheetah/Kfir blk60 are the ultimate; completely re-engineered platforms.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> That is exactly what i have been saying for decades. There is no other choice. With RSS and their nazi mentality, the leadership as MastanKhan used to say are corrupt and self interested.
> 
> Cheetah/Kfir blk60 are the ultimate; completely re-engineered platforms.


Can SA come up with something similar if PAF wants it?


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## denel

Deltadart said:


> Can SA come up with something similar if PAF wants it?


Entire cheetah building infra structure is there intact!.

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## BRAVO_

denel said:


> Disagree with you. It is exactly that reason why it needs to be reworked into a next gen platform. All the pieces are there but there is no will from Pak side. There are no monies else where. As noted before at least put 60 of these into cheetah type upgrade for strategic role.


Sir, 
- Mirage were aim to deal with the threats of its time 
- today's air warfare involved modern Radars and other technologies such as fly by wire systems etc, how those would be incorporated in it??? since Aircraft has its own design limitations, ??? further, one should keep the cost factor in mind while incorporating these advancement.
- upgrades can further increase the life of aircraft frame but .... it can never achieve the life like a new. 
- in 2013 india made an agreement with France for up gradation of its mirage 2000s under a contract of 17,547 crore or 2.5 billion USD, and 51 Mirages were suppose to upgrade. on the other hand one new Mirage 2000 has a price tag of 30 million USD.
- in past Mirage Rose program was meant to be continue for some time after 2003 but the PAF had to terminate the program due to a combination of high costs and aging Mirage III/5 frame
- for showing numbers on paper good to have them but pitching them against modern front line fighter would be a disaster therefore, pakistan should slowly phase them out and replace them with JF-17 Block 3 and beyond


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## denel

BRAVO_ said:


> Sir,
> - Mirage were aim to deal with the threats of its time
> - today's air warfare involved modern Radars and other technologies such as fly by wire systems etc, how those would be incorporated in it??? since Aircraft has its own design limitations, ??? further, one should keep the cost factor in mind while incorporating these advancement.
> - upgrades can further increase the life of aircraft frame but .... it can never achieve the life like a new.
> - in 2013 india made an agreement with France for up gradation of its mirage 2000s under a contract of 17,547 crore or 2.5 billion USD, and 51 Mirages were suppose to upgrade. on the other hand one new Mirage 2000 has a price tag of 30 million USD.
> - in past Mirage Rose program was meant to be continue for some time after 2003 but the PAF had to terminate the program due to a combination of high costs and aging Mirage III/5 frame
> - for showing numbers on paper good to have them but pitching them against modern front line fighter would be a disaster therefore, pakistan should slowly phase them out and replace them with JF-17 Block 3 and beyond


That is the problem friend and misunderstanding. Cheetah means a new frame not an aging frame which is why ROSE was discontinued; a brand new replacement.

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## umair86

With current situation and procurement of Egyptian Mirages they are here to stay for another decade. We need an urgent upgrade to sustain the Mirages up to the modern standard. We have no money to buy new jets and no one is giving us anyway. Comprehensive upgrade is necessary of Mirages get airframe refurbished as put new systems along With RD-93 engine which will give it more power to weight ratio better range and loadout capacity. Most important change the EW suite.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Can clone frame from china give out tender


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## denel

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Can clone frame from china give out tender


Why!. Cheetah airframes are available; done and tested. Read on Cheetah.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If it was me I would ask one of the 2nd or 3rd tier Chinese companies, to copy the Mirage Fuselage
Wing/Shing , we can make it in Pakistan

Just get brand new stuff from China get it delivered

China can copy anything 



denel said:


> Why!. Cheetah airframes are available; done and tested. Read on Cheetah.



Well if these are available sure

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## jupiter2007

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> If it was me I would ask one of the 2nd or 3rd tier Chinese companies, to copy the Mirage Fuselage
> Wing/Shing , we can make it in Pakistan
> 
> Just get brand new stuff from China get it delivered
> 
> China can copy anything
> 
> 
> 
> Well if these are available sure



If it was that easy, I would have asked China to copy/build mirage-2000?

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## Deltadart

Like @denel said that SA has all the infrastructure intact, so why go to anybody else for upgrading/building new (mirages/cheetahs/shaheens) whatever you want to call it? 
PAF is not going to do anything anyway so let's end any further discussions on this topic.

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## Jammer

Deltadart said:


> Like @denel said that SA has all the infrastructure intact, so why go to anybody else for upgrading/building new (mirages/cheetahs/shaheens) whatever you want to call it?
> PAF is not going to do anything anyway so let's end any further discussions on this topic.


Yes, lets! You seem to have all the strategic answers for the PAF. In fact your assessment on the PAF brass's ineptness is so accurate that it warrants a meeting with the Chief. There are some on this forum that recognize and smell a rat and his/her accomplices and there are others that have yet to recognize those with hidden agendas among us . Nice try!

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## Deltadart

Jammer said:


> Yes, lets! You seem to have all the strategic answers for the PAF. In fact your assessment on the PAF brass's ineptness is so accurate that it warrants a meeting with the Chief. There are some on this forum that recognize and smell a rat and his/her accomplices and there are others that have yet to recognize those with hidden agendas among us . Nice try!


No need to be sarcastic , bro.


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## Jammer

Deltadart said:


> No need to be sarcastic , bro.


Not being sarcastic at all, in fact, I think you know exactly what I mean. Like I said before, nice try! And I am not your bro.


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## Deltadart

If you say so, not a bro. ☺ Peace!


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## denel

Deltadart said:


> Like @denel said that SA has all the infrastructure intact, so why go to anybody else for upgrading/building new (mirages/cheetahs/shaheens) whatever you want to call it?
> PAF is not going to do anything anyway so let's end any further discussions on this topic.


Well simple, we moved to Gripens; the rest recently sold of to South American countries; but infrastructure remains for service level agreements.
Too bad if PAF does not want to continue on. This is the only avenue left if you want a credible and stable Mirage force for next 20yrs. Cobbling up parts etc wont get you any where; there is a point of no return.

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> Well simple, we moved to Gripens; the rest recently sold of to South American countries; but infrastructure remains for service level agreements.
> Too bad if PAF does not want to continue on. This is the only avenue left if you want a credible and stable Mirage force for next 20yrs. Cobbling up parts etc wont get you any where; there is a point of no return.


They would since price tag of new fighters is going to go higher,already flyaway cost is hanging at 60 million for monkey models.


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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Well simple, we moved to Gripens; the rest recently sold of to South American countries; but infrastructure remains for service level agreements.
> Too bad if PAF does not want to continue on. This is the only avenue left if you want a credible and stable Mirage force for next 20yrs. Cobbling up parts etc wont get you any where; there is a point of no return.


Denel, PAF is like a boy who keeps dreaming about , but can't have the pretty girl (f16s) in the mansion, but keeps ignoring the practical, though not, the prettiest girl (mirages) living next door.

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## GriffinsRule

denel said:


> Why!. Cheetah airframes are available; done and tested. Read on Cheetah.


Denel, 
Can you explain why the South Africans themselves are not using these airframes and instead went and bought the Grippen?

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## Jammer

Deltadart said:


> Denel, PAF is like a boy who keeps dreaming about , but can't have the pretty girl (f16s) in the mansion, but keeps ignoring the practical, though not, the prettiest girl (mirages) living next door.


Wow what astute analysis! We are all smarter after reading these pearls of wisdom. You guys have plenty of work to do figuring out your outdated Bisons. Give it a rest.


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## Signalian

Jammer said:


> Wow what astute analysis! We are all smarter after reading these pearls of wisdom. You guys have plenty of work to do figuring out your outdated Bisons. Give it a rest.


Its an Indian agenda to challenge Pakistan to a weapon acquisition race knowing that Pakistan is economically not that strong compared to India. Indian members as well as members with Indian background ,are promoting the same think pattern on PDF. They have been trying their best to rate 3rd Gen aircrafts such as Mirage-III/V as obsolete, F-7 P/PG as tooth less, JF-17 as a turkey shoot for IAF and F-16 as a mere fantasy for PAF - a Unicorn. Indians are never satisfied with their own weapon acquisition, a concrete proof is shifting their complete attention towards Rafale, as SU-30 failed to make its mark. One missile - Aim120 - has created ripples in IAF's BVR combat tactics and strategy.

In some cases, such mentality has sunk into Pakistani members also, who do not understand that Mirage-III/V are serving in PAF for a purpose - had they been obsolete, 1-2 would have fallen due to "technical failure" into IOK on 27th Feb 2019 instead of returning safe and sound to PAF airbase.

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## Max Pain

denel said:


> Not much effort; remember we already had experience with mod'd original M3 and F1 for HMS, Kukris as well as other integration points; 20 yrs back did TEWA on Cheetah platform nothing complex.
> 
> 
> Absolutely, this is why a new upgrade is a necessity to create a standardised modern M3/5. There is nothing better on the plate right now.


I absolutely agree with you, and I commend the fact that youve been pushing this idea for quite a while now.
I cant see why cant follow the path of IAI Kfir.

With the current Kfir Block 60 that the FAC operates featuring a 'zero-timed' airframe, system, sensor, avionics (comparable with the F-16 Block 52), and weapon enhancements, the Kfir NG adds a more powerful General Electric (GE) F414 engine (as already powers the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen E/F) in place of the outdated GE J79; an enhanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; improvements to the datalinks; and upgraded avionics. Another feature that is still in development is a redesigned aft-fuselage that will increase the aircraft fuel capacity. According to Melamed, this should double the Kfir's endurance.

https://www.janes.com/article/89345...-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service


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## Signalian

Max Pain said:


> I absolutely agree with you, and I commend the fact that youve been pushing this idea for quite a while now.
> I cant see why cant follow the path of IAI Kfir.


ROSE upgrade is considered enough for Mirage III/V.

Now focus is on JF-17 and its upgrades.

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## Max Pain

Signalian said:


> ROSE upgrade is considered enough for Mirage III/V.
> 
> Now focus is on JF-17 and its upgrades.



depends.
will block 3 be the worthy replacement of Mirage's role or not.

if it is then yes, we should not invest in mirage.
but so far it doesn't appear that Mirage's role has been in any way replaced by JF-17.


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## Signalian

Max Pain said:


> depends.
> will block 3 be the worthy replacement of Mirage's role or not.
> 
> if it is then yes, we should not invest in mirage.
> but so far it doesn't appear that Mirage's role has been in any way replaced by JF-17.


Mirage has been already invested in heavily, if there is any news that PAF is further upgrading combat capabilities of Mirages, then do share.

JF-17 was envisioned as replacement for Mirage from the very start.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> Mirage has been already invested in heavily, if there is any news that PAF is further upgrading combat capabilities of Mirages, then do share.
> 
> JF-17 was envisioned as replacement for Mirage from the very start.





> Lets rephrase that to a new strike platform is a necessity. PAF is extremely happy with the JF-17 in the air combat role , the F-16 provides a good mix as well. *They want a replacement for the Mirages as the deep strike platform.*
> 
> Since no M2Ks are available, and besides the J-10 there is nothing we can afford; the only option is to prolong the life of the mirages we have by total overhaul and replacement of key fuselage sections as needed.


Said by Oscar.

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## Max Pain

Signalian said:


> Mirage has been already invested in heavily, if there is any news that PAF is further upgrading combat capabilities of Mirages, then do share.
> 
> JF-17 was envisioned as replacement for Mirage from the very start.



There's no news at all in this regard. it was mere discussion/proposal by @denel which I agree with from what I've gathered from this forum so far that JF-17 is yet to replace the "role" of mirage.

If it actually is doing just that then yes it can very well replace mirage and all the attention should be given to JF-17.


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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> Its an Indian agenda to challenge Pakistan to a weapon acquisition race knowing that Pakistan is economically not that strong compared to India. Indian members as well as members with Indian background ,are promoting the same think pattern on PDF. They have been trying their best to rate 3rd Gen aircrafts such as Mirage-III/V as obsolete, F-7 P/PG as tooth less, JF-17 as a turkey shoot for IAF and F-16 as a mere fantasy for PAF - a Unicorn. Indians are never satisfied with their own weapon acquisition, a concrete proof is shifting their complete attention towards Rafale, as SU-30 failed to make its mark. One missile - Aim120 - has created ripples in IAF's BVR combat tactics and strategy.
> 
> In some cases, such mentality has sunk into Pakistani members also, who do not understand that Mirage-III/V are serving in PAF for a purpose - had they been obsolete, 1-2 would have fallen due to "technical failure" into IOK on 27th Feb 2019 instead of returning safe and sound to PAF airbase.


Mirages are excellent for their role and will serve well into 2030
They are great assest for our nuclear arm and will carry the raad probably till both are retired
F7s though with no Bvr i am not sure what to make lf them


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## The Accountant

ziaulislam said:


> Mirages are excellent for their role and will serve well into 2030
> They are great assest for our nuclear arm and will carry the raad probably till both are retired
> F7s though with no Bvr i am not sure what to make lf them


Mirrage also dont have any BVR. Their role is limited to strategic delivery.

For conventional delivery as soon as all precision strike weapons get integrated with thunder there will be no need of mirrage. I am sure finding a solution for strategic role by thunder must be in preparation.

Mirrages are really old crafts. They are fuel hungry, maintenance hungry and lack modern avionics. They can't fly alone in a war zone and need escort aircrafts whereas Thunders can take care of themselves while attacking ...

I recommend that sooner we release mirrages the better we will be able to spend our running maintenance budget.

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## Sine Nomine

The Accountant said:


> Mirrage also dont have any BVR. Their role is limited to strategic delivery.
> 
> For conventional delivery as soon as all precision strike weapons get integrated with thunder there will be no need of mirrage. I am sure finding a solution for strategic role by thunder must be in preparation.
> 
> Mirrages are really old crafts. They are fuel hungry, maintenance hungry and lack modern avionics. They can't fly alone in a war zone and need escort aircrafts whereas Thunders can take care of themselves while attacking ...
> 
> I recommend that sooner we release mirrages the better we will be able to spend our running maintenance budget.


Pakistan has round about 180 M3/5 in service.


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## Deltadart

Jammer said:


> Wow what astute analysis! We are all smarter after reading these pearls of wisdom. You guys have plenty of work to do figuring out your outdated Bisons. Give it a rest.


Okay, o wise one. Your wish is our command on this forum. From now on let's just start discussing F35s only for PAF,. After all we are flush with money , and anybody who differs from your opinion is an indian.

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## Sinnerman108

Deltadart said:


> Okay, o wise one. Your wish is our command on this forum. From now on let's just start discussing F35s only for PAF,. After all we are flush with money , and anybody who differs from your opinion is an indian.



I like your name, 
its very adequate, delta -> Dart and it is in the mirage thread, and your DP suits it.


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## Deltadart

Haha. I had no idea that naming myself after a fighter plane,I love(Convair F106 Deltadart),made me a suspect of being an indian here. Way to go guys.


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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> Denel,
> Can you explain why the South Africans themselves are not using these airframes and instead went and bought the Grippen?


Very simple. If you go back in history to understand.
When the Mig23s were fielded and first encounters in Angola in late 79/early 80s; SAAF immediately notified PW that we had a significant challenge on our hand. Our M3s were not capable 1:1 handling Mig-23 - only F1 was in that league. Atlas then embarked the Cheetah platform which included better radar etc. to make it 4th Gen. How this was to be a stop gap measure as we had Craver project in parallel with Lavi engagement; Lavi was to be the replacement for Cheetahs. Atlas and IAI were working jointly on Lavi - wind tunnel tests were being done at Atlas facilities as well. When they pulled Lavi out further upgrades of Cheetah were in flight and geo-politics changed as well. By 1996 new arms agreements to bring in Gripen were announced which many of us did not agree with and there was massive corruption by Zuma and his side kick Shabir. Cheetahs were still around until 2008. Agreement with Castros saw that both sides pulled out and the soviet threat had complete gone. Like M3/5; our deep strike lay with Buccaneers not M3/5 which were doing long range strikes as far as Lusaka and were tasked with the role of carrying the nuclear weapons when time came.
It is a pity, PAF could have easily procured all of the Cheetahs including entire TOT which you could have converted others too.

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## Jammer

Deltadart said:


> Okay, o wise one. Your wish is our command on this forum. From now on let's just start discussing F35s only for PAF,. After all we are flush with money , and anybody who differs from your opinion is an indian.


Nice try again!


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## Signalian

The Accountant said:


> They can't fly alone in a war zone and need escort aircrafts whereas Thunders can take care of themselves while attacking ...


Any aircraft, be it F-16 or JF-17 flying into IAf airspace will never be alone.

Strike packages consist of 2 or more aircrafts and with advent of EW, every strike package venturing into IAF skies will need EW support from one or more aircrafts, be it EW capable DA-20s providing it or EW capability of F-16 or JF-17. There has to be at least one dedicated EW aircraft covering these strike aircrafts. This was demonstrated on 27th Feb 2019 also. This is why force multipliers exist in modern air combat. 

So even if its Mirage-V or JF-17 or F-16 on strike mission, it will need EW cover as well as BVR combat cover from other aircrafts. USAF plans to send EA-1Gs ahead of strike package, first to go in, last to fly out. Israelis use F-15 and F-16 together for strike mission, either of the two providing air cover for BVR combat.



Max Pain said:


> There's no news at all in this regard. it was mere discussion/proposal by @denel which I agree with from what I've gathered from this forum so far that JF-17 is yet to replace the "role" of mirage.
> 
> If it actually is doing just that then yes it can very well replace mirage and all the attention should be given to JF-17.


Ra'ad ALCM - either modify Ra'ad for JF-17 or modify JF-17 for Ra'ad. That's one primary concern.



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Pakistan has round about 180 M3/5 in service.


Not sure how many have been cannibalized out of 180.



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Said by Oscar.


The JH-7B debate made it interesting due to different point of view.



ziaulislam said:


> Mirages are excellent for their role and will serve well into 2030
> They are great assest for our nuclear arm and will carry the raad probably till both are retired
> F7s though with no Bvr i am not sure what to make lf them


The date of 2030 is up to PAF.

Ideal replacement for Mirage-III/V should be F-16 itself, if in sufficient numbers, its just those local produced and foreign weaponry that wouldn't work well with F-16s. PAF starts to get new ideas when it inducts F-16 so F-16 replacing Mirage might not happen. A new acquisition maybe, like Su-35 or stealth aircraft. 

F-7 P/PG have served well, filled in the numbers when needed.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> Not sure how many have been cannibalized out of 180


This numbers comes out from 274 airframes which were purchased over time from various sources.

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## The Accountant

Signalian said:


> Any aircraft, be it F-16 or JF-17 flying into IAf airspace will never be alone.
> 
> Strike packages consist of 2 or more aircrafts and with advent of EW, every strike package venturing into IAF skies will need EW support from one or more aircrafts, be it EW capable DA-20s providing it or EW capability of F-16 or JF-17. There has to be at least one dedicated EW aircraft covering these strike aircrafts. This was demonstrated on 27th Feb 2019 also. This is why force multipliers exist in modern air combat.


By alone I meant they will not require assistance from other squadrons ... 
JF17 can get escorted by JF17 will be enough.

27th Feb was a totally different scenario. It was a limited theater level skirmish and we placed our planes in a planned manner but in a full blown war, having such a luxury is rear and you have to achieve high sortie rates with limited number of aircraft ... AWACS can provide support for limited areas if not already taken down in such a scnario depending on an aircraft that requires aircraft from another squodran can make things difficult.

In a desperate situation you can send 2 thunders with 2 WVR missiles, 2 SD10s, 2 stand-off weapons and one central fuel tank. But can you do the same with Mirages other than within our own airspace ...

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## Signalian

The Accountant said:


> By alone I meant they will not require assistance from other squadrons ...
> JF17 can get escorted by JF17 will be enough.
> 
> 27th Feb was a totally different scenario. It was a limited theater level skirmish and we placed our planes in a planned manner but in a full blown war, having such a luxury is rear and you have to achieve high sortie rates with limited number of aircraft ... AWACS can provide support for limited areas if not already taken down in such a scnario depending on an aircraft that requires aircraft from another squodran can make things difficult.
> 
> In a desperate situation you can send *2 thunders with 2 WVR missiles, 2 SD10s, 2 stand-off weapons and one central fuel tank*. But can you do the same with Mirages other than within our own airspace ...


JF-17 escorting JF-17 could have been deployed in Feb also, yet PAF chose to deploy F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages. 80-100 JF-17s were available to PAF. 

PAF could have used the JF-17 configuration you mentioned on 27th Feb 2019, yet PAF decided to send in non-upgraded Mirages, both III and V. The ROSE upgraded weren't deployed for this strike. PAF has 8 x AWACS? Even if 4-5 are deployed in the air during war, they should be able to cover a major portion of Pakistan's air space. 

The EW suite of JF-17 Block III should be interesting.

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## denel

Signalian said:


> Any aircraft, be it F-16 or JF-17 flying into IAf airspace will never be alone.
> 
> Strike packages consist of 2 or more aircrafts and with advent of EW, every strike package venturing into IAF skies will need EW support from one or more aircrafts, be it EW capable DA-20s providing it or EW capability of F-16 or JF-17. There has to be at least one dedicated EW aircraft covering these strike aircrafts. This was demonstrated on 27th Feb 2019 also. This is why force multipliers exist in modern air combat.
> 
> So even if its Mirage-V or JF-17 or F-16 on strike mission, it will need EW cover as well as BVR combat cover from other aircrafts. USAF plans to send EA-1Gs ahead of strike package, first to go in, last to fly out. Israelis use F-15 and F-16 together for strike mission, either of the two providing air cover for BVR combat.
> 
> 
> Ra'ad ALCM - either modify Ra'ad for JF-17 or modify JF-17 for Ra'ad. That's one primary concern.
> 
> 
> Not sure how many have been cannibalized out of 180.
> 
> 
> The JH-7B debate made it interesting due to different point of view.
> 
> 
> The date of 2030 is up to PAF.
> 
> Ideal replacement for Mirage-III/V should be F-16 itself, if in sufficient numbers, its just those local produced and foreign weaponry that wouldn't work well with F-16s. PAF starts to get new ideas when it inducts F-16 so F-16 replacing Mirage might not happen. A new acquisition maybe, like Su-35 or stealth aircraft.
> 
> F-7 P/PG have served well, filled in the numbers when needed.


Dont forget H2/H4/H4 NG need to be integrated as well to JF-17; the changes are very interesting to make it work but medium complexity. so far there is no news on that front yet.

personally jh-7 is ideal replacement imo. problem with F-16 you will fall into same problem of extending to newer non EU/US munitions/SOWs.

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## Signalian

denel said:


> Dont forget H2/H4/H4 NG need to be integrated as well to JF-17; the changes are very interesting to make it work but medium complexity. so far there is no news on that front yet.
> 
> personally jh-7 is ideal replacement imo. problem with F-16 you will fall into same problem of extending to newer non EU/US munitions/SOWs.


Good you pointed out that JF-17 needs integration of A2G weaponry, this begs the question; where would PAF utilize its resources sensibly: Upgrading and modernizing JF-17 OR further upgrading Mirages ?

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## Talon

The Accountant said:


> By alone I meant they will not require assistance from other squadrons ...
> JF17 can get escorted by JF17 will be enough.
> 
> 27th Feb was a totally different scenario. It was a limited theater level skirmish and we placed our planes in a planned manner but in a full blown war, having such a luxury is rear and you have to achieve high sortie rates with limited number of aircraft ... AWACS can provide support for limited areas if not already taken down in such a scnario depending on an aircraft that requires aircraft from another squodran can make things difficult.
> 
> In a desperate situation you can send 2 thunders with 2 WVR missiles, 2 SD10s, 2 stand-off weapons and one central fuel tank. But can you do the same with Mirages other than within our own airspace ...


In war you might even see A-5s and Old F7Ps flying.

Sending same aircrafts in a package makes no sense.Variety of aircraft will fill the gaps created by same type of Aircrafts.E.g F16 or JF17 cant fire H weapon,JF-17 bvr isnt as good as F16s etc.



Signalian said:


> JF-17 escorting JF-17 could have been deployed in Feb also, yet PAF chose to deploy F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages. 80-100 JF-17s were available to PAF.
> 
> PAF could have used the JF-17 configuration you mentioned on 27th Feb 2019, yet PAF decided to send in non-upgraded Mirages, both III and V. The ROSE upgraded weren't deployed for this strike. PAF has 8 x AWACS? Even if 4-5 are deployed in the air during war, they should be able to cover a major portion of Pakistan's air space.
> 
> The EW suite of JF-17 Block III should be interesting.


Rose squadrons do not operate H weapon, otherwise they would have been preferred over the old jets of No. 15.



denel said:


> Dont forget H2/H4/H4 NG need to be integrated as well to JF-17; the changes are very interesting to make it work but medium complexity. so far there is no news on that front yet.
> 
> personally jh-7 is ideal replacement imo. problem with F-16 you will fall into same problem of extending to newer non EU/US munitions/SOWs.


The ground clearance of JF-17 doesn't allow H weapon to be deployed on it,even on Mirage its very low and landing a Mirage with H weapon fitted to it is a tricky job.So unless there's some new version of H weapon,I dont see it being deployed on JF-17.ReK will go with JF-17 only I guess.

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Zulfiqar

Hodor said:


> Rose squadrons do not operate H weapon, otherwise they would have been preferred over the old jets of No. 15.




So what are the rose mirages being used for (the one carrying flirs i.e zarrars, night strike eagles e.t.c). I mean what conventional weapons are being used by them if they don't use H-weapons.

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## Talon

Zulfiqar said:


> So what are the rose mirages being used for (the one carrying flirs i.e zarrars, night strike eagles e.t.c). I mean what conventional weapons are being used by them if they don't use H-weapons.


Night strike eagles have night strike capabilities as the name suggests and the only Mirage sqn to have NVGs (or maybe Zarrars as well) if I am not wrong.
Bandits has the most advanced version with RAAD capability.
All others carry GPBs.

Edit: ReK is under development,maybe more sqns can support it or may support in the future.The thing is that you cant just hand a weapon to a squadron,every pilot of the squadron has to become Ops on it and usually one or two squadrons are given the specific role of that weapon.

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## Zulfiqar

Hodor said:


> Night strike eagles have night strike capabilities as the name suggests and the only Mirage sqn to have NVGs (or maybe Zarrars as well) if I am not wrong.
> Bandits has the most advanced version with RAAD capability.
> All others carry GPBs.
> 
> Edit: ReK is under development,maybe more sqns can support it or may support in the future.The thing is that you cant just hand a weapon to a squadron,every pilot of the squadron has to become Ops on it and usually one or two squadrons are given the specific role of that weapon.




So what do the night strike/zarrars carry for night strike. GPS REKs (Don't need flir for that) or LGBs or something else?


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## mshan44



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## sparten

The PAF has post Feb 2019 concluded that the 500 fighter number has to be miantained. Looks like Mirages will serve for years still.

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## denel

sparten said:


> The PAF has post Feb 2019 concluded that the 500 fighter number has to be miantained. Looks like Mirages will serve for years still.


yes they will continue on which is why we noted an upgrade even if it means to zero out the airframe will be a worthy undertaking combined with best effort changes to deliver maximum potential.

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## sparten

The most impressive thimg is that IHK has some of the most indepth IADs on the planet and the Mirage/H4 combo penetrated it easily.

Saffer's engineering is goooood.

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## syed_yusuf

sparten said:


> The PAF has post Feb 2019 concluded that the 500 fighter number has to be miantained. Looks like Mirages will serve for years still.


Paf is way short of that number 

With all available assets paf can at most muster 400 planes of varied capabilities from 2nd gen f-7 to 4th gen f-16 and JFT

500 IS A dream

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## jamal18

syed_yusuf said:


> Paf is way short of that number
> 
> With all available assets paf can at most muster 400 planes of varied capabilities from 2nd gen f-7 to 4th gen f-16 and JFT
> 
> 500 IS A dream



A 'Cheetah' type project is the easiest way to solve this.

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## MIRauf

You mean a work horse ( JF-17 ) type project could get that number up ? Increase the batch size to 75/100 instead of 50.

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## Basel

denel said:


> Entire cheetah building infra structure is there intact!.



What SOW, BVR WVR with other goodies SA can offer?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Basel said:


> What SOW, BVR WVR with other goodies SA can offer?


WVR: A-Darter

SOW: Raptor III, technology from the Tariq/Umbani PGB and Sajeel PGB/LGB

BVR: Marlin (100+ km)

SAM: Umkhonto EIR (30-35 km), Umkhonto ER (60 km)

Cruise Missiles: help in miniature propulsion (including supersonic ramjet tech), guidance tech, etc, and if need be assistance anywhere else if we want it, e.g., making a smaller Ra'ad variant, a Harpoon-like AShM, etc.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

sparten said:


> The most impressive thimg is that IHK has some of the most indepth IADs on the planet and the Mirage/H4 combo penetrated it easily.
> 
> Saffer's engineering is goooood.


The French are known for their "Maginot Line" type intricate thought process!!! Jules Verne effects...

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## denel

Basel said:


> What SOW, BVR WVR with other goodies SA can offer?


HMS on M3/5s, you already have secure comms from us. Cheetah equivalent retrofitment for all the M3/5s.

On land, we are the leaders on infantry vehicles and artillery; manpacks etc.

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## jamal18

MIRauf said:


> You mean a work horse ( JF-17 ) type project could get that number up ? Increase the batch size to 75/100 instead of 50.



Yes, although to make it financially worthwhile you might have to produce more than a mere 25/30.



Basel said:


> What SOW, BVR WVR with other goodies SA can offer?



To make it financially more attractive it would be nice if there were Pakistani sub-systems. A country of 200 million which after 30 years of defence industry has to run to much smaller countries for virtually everything.

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## Basel

denel said:


> HMS on M3/5s, you already have secure comms from us. Cheetah equivalent retrofitment for all the M3/5s.
> 
> On land, we are the leaders on infantry vehicles and artillery; manpacks etc.



Our M-3/5s have HMS?? If that is true then why no A-Darter on them?

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## denel

Basel said:


> Our M-3/5s have HMS?? If that is true then why no A-Darter on them?


no they dont have HMS; i was answering to the other gentleman @Basel this is available.

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## Basel

denel said:


> no they dont have HMS; i was answering to the other gentleman @Basel this is available.



Good avionics, HMS/D with BVR + 5th gen WVR a upgraded extended life M-3/5 will be able to handle all non 5th gen bird threats in NCW environment.

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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> Good avionics, HMS/D with BVR + 5th gen WVR a upgraded extended life M-3/5 will be able to handle all non 5th gen bird threats in NCW environment.


if anything at all, it should be BVR upgrade...with its air frame and no fly by wire..would we want WVR battle?


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## Deltadart

Basel said:


> Good avionics, HMS/D with BVR + 5th gen WVR a upgraded extended life M-3/5 will be able to handle all non 5th gen bird threats in NCW environment.


But there is one problem. Who is going to make PAF do this? They are their own master's. Our legislature nor the defense affairs committee have a clue about such matters. Only thing they are concerned about is how to loot and plunder the nation. 
Unfortunately, We don't have any serious discussion on this topic from the non online think tanks. We have one or two but they never gave this topic a thought.

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## Haris Ali2140

Deltadart said:


> But there is one problem. Who is going to make PAF do this? They are their own master's. Our legislature nor the defense affairs committee have a clue about such matters. Only thing they are concerned about is how to loot and plunder the nation.
> Unfortunately, We don't have any serious discussion on this topic from the non online think tanks. We have one or two but they never gave this topic a thought.


Just Imagine 100+ BVR capable M3/M5 and 50+ JF Block 3s!!!!


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## Deltadart

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Just Imagine 100+ BVR capable M3/M5 and 50+ JF Block 3s!!!!


I have no problem with it. I say why not 300 mirages with this configuration. If we can afford. But than jf17 is everything. We want to go out with all our eggs in one basket. Mere mention of an assembly line for New mirages is a sacrilege.


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## Haris Ali2140

Deltadart said:


> I have no problem with it. I say why not 300 mirages with this configuration. If we can afford. But than jf17 is everything. We want to go out with all our eggs in one basket. Mere mention of an assembly line for New mirages is a sacrilege.



At current config it can can 7000 kgs of ordinance. Denel said that its engine can be replaced with RD-93 which is smaller,lighter and has more thrust. Engine swap will increase its payload capacity and also provide room for more upgrades.

I don't know how authentic this statement is but i read somewhere that since M3/M5 production has been stopped for a long time we have full rights to do whatever we want to do with this machine.


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## Deltadart

Haris Ali2140 said:


> At current config it can can 7000 kgs of ordinance. Denel said that its engine can be replaced with RD-93 which is smaller,lighter and has more thrust. Engine swap will increase its payload capacity and also provide room for more upgrades.
> 
> I don't know how authentic this statement is but i read somewhere that since M3/M5 production has been stopped for a long time we have full rights to do whatever we want to do with this machine.


Israel did it, SA did it so what is our fear? It's an excuse for not doing something.

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## The Eagle

Deltadart said:


> I have no problem with it. I say why not 300 mirages with this configuration. If we can afford. But than jf17 is everything. We want to go out with all our eggs in one basket. Mere mention of an assembly line for New mirages is a sacrilege.



In short, this is not about the one basket rather having the number of eggs. The economic constrains & the growing threat along with our choices & options, does play a lot of part in this regard. Had we enjoyed the luxury like any other nation with big pockets; PAF would have gone every possible route but that is the dream only till economy stabilizes. Current route of Thunder Block-III with possible new acquisition and future planing in regard to Azm are the main factors to emphasis. The wishes or ideas are not wrong but bashing the Institute without due consideration of unavoidable circumstances, is totally unfair to begin with. Above all, public will know very less in certain domains that men in uniform will keep everything with them and for plausible reasons.

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## Haris Ali2140

The Eagle said:


> In short, this is not about the one basket rather having the number of eggs. The economic constrains & the growing threat along with our choices & options, does play a lot of part in this regard. Had we enjoyed the luxury like any other nation with big pockets; PAF would have gone every possible route but that is the dream only till economy stabilizes. Current route of Thunder Block-III with possible new acquisition and future planing in regard to Azm are the main factors to emphasis. The wishes or ideas are not wrong but bashing the Institute without due consideration of unavoidable circumstances, is totally unfair to begin with. Above all, public will know very less in certain domains that men in uniform will keep everything with them and for plausible reasons.


But there is a big gap between today and AZM. More F-16s doesn't look possible option. What will bridge that gap???

If we have to keep Mirages operational till 2030 why not add another capability (BVR) which will a very effective deterrent for any adversary???


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## Deltadart

The Eagle said:


> In short, this is not about the one basket rather having the number of eggs. The economic constrains & the growing threat along with our choices & options, does play a lot of part in this regard. Had we enjoyed the luxury like any other nation with big pockets; PAF would have gone every possible route but that is the dream only till economy stabilizes. Current route of Thunder Block-III with possible new acquisition and future planing in regard to Azm are the main factors to emphasis. The wishes or ideas are not wrong but bashing the Institute without due consideration of unavoidable circumstances, is totally unfair to begin with. Above all, public will know very less in certain domains that men in uniform will keep everything with them and for plausible reasons.


Point noted. However even when the funds were available, they didn't do much about the mirage upgrades besides the ROSE. Much more was possible without breaking the bank.


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## The Eagle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But there is a big gap between today and AZM. More F-16s doesn't look possible option. What will bridge that gap???
> 
> If we have to keep Mirages operational till 2030 why not add another capability (BVR) which will a very effective deterrent for any adversary???



I was merely stating the possible route with primary to secondary etc steps. The plan as such.



Deltadart said:


> Point noted. However even when the funds were available, they didn't do much about the mirage upgrades besides the ROSE. Much more was possible without breaking the bank.



Yes, there were funds but then, there were diplomatic circumstances as well as going for more modern warfare machine beside investing for self reliance. Having said that; you can't ignore the depth of your pocket while fulfilling your wishes. Mirage-III/V-Rose are configured per threat assessment with best possible weapons in lieu of budget as well as their respective role to play in modern warfare. Upgrades are always welcome but then again, you have priorities as per threat assessment. Strike package shall be offensive but that comes later when you have the dominance in Air with best punch to cover Mirages. Mix configuration having different platforms in Air makes it more difficult for the foe. Mirages in current form are doing the best as expected till, we have a good size of budgetary to spend.

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## Deltadart

Yes, there were funds but then, there were diplomatic circumstances as well as going for more modern warfare machine beside investing for self reliance. Having said that; you can't ignore the depth of your pocket while fulfilling your wishes. Mirage-III/V-Rose are configured per threat assessment with best possible weapons in lieu of budget as well as their respective role to play in modern warfare. Upgrades are always welcome but then again, you have priorities as per threat assessment. Strike package shall be offensive but that comes later when you have the dominance in Air with best punch to cover Mirages. Mix configuration having different platforms in Air makes it more difficult for the foe. Mirages in current form are doing the best as expected till, we have a good size of budgetary to spend.[/QUOTE]


The Eagle said:


> I was merely stating the possible route with primary to secondary etc steps. The plan as such.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there were funds but then, there were diplomatic circumstances as well as going for more modern warfare machine beside investing for self reliance. Having said that; you can't ignore the depth of your pocket while fulfilling your wishes. Mirage-III/V-Rose are configured per threat assessment with best possible weapons in lieu of budget as well as their respective role to play in modern warfare. Upgrades are always welcome but then again, you have priorities as per threat assessment. Strike package shall be offensive but that comes later when you have the dominance in Air with best punch to cover Mirages. Mix configuration having different platforms in Air makes it more difficult for the foe. Mirages in current form are doing the best as expected till, we have a good size of budgetary to spend.


Our economy has always been our Achilles heel. It is not about to take off anytime soon. Since no more military aid will be forthcoming from the old sources, so where do we go from here?


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## The Eagle

Deltadart said:


> Our economy has always been our Achilles heel. It is not about to take off anytime soon. Since no more military aid will be forthcoming from the old sources, so where do we go from here?



Military aid was never about to build our Military at full rather, that aid was to support our purchases in respective domain so that the money stays there and we have the equipment. In current times; one can see that we are moving forward in mix of purchase but more of self reliance. The emphasis remains on ToT as well as training to catch the fish by ourselves. One cannot ignore the fact that Military itself can't do much as long as diplomacy is weak. After a long time, we are seeing some progress whereby geopolitics is changing while our diplomatic force is active that pretty much comes handy in regard to fulfill our Military Requirements.

Once I am weak to pay upfront, the area can be covered by political office. Just look at JF-17 development, our self reliance in regard to manufacturing some offensive weapons by ourselves and then, we are moving ahead with indigenous solutions in mix with ToT from friendly countries. As far as the mix of diplomacy & military chemistry remains affective; you will find more of progress. I will repeat again that not everything is being told to the public but on other hand, pay attention to the development in various areas from diplomatic offices to the geopolitics along with our importance in region and then, the role of Military to maintain the peace then you will see as where we are heading. Conclusively in regard to Military build up, understand the tactics that we don't or cannot rely much upon quantity rather, we choose to take routes with quality & fruition to fulfill our needs as well as helping ourselves to build the best of defence for the country. Be it Air, Land or Sea; just look at how Forces are moving ahead in acquisitions & development.

Remember that once JF-17 Thunder was in development; was mostly quoted as a counter to LCA Tejas but later on, the same performed much more than expected and proven to be at par with some of the most advanced fighters in arena, in several domains. That does not mean that it comes as a surprise for the Air-Force but our emphasis is on quality & building the most offensive product based upon available weapon option whereby Military will keep it under many wraps. Mirage in current form is delivering good enough and surely, men-in-Blue knows very well as what we need or could be done as per available resources.

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## Deltadart

The Eagle said:


> Military aid was never about to build our Military at full rather, that aid was to support our purchases in respective domain so that the money stays there and we have the equipment. In current times; one can see that we are moving forward in mix of purchase but more of self reliance. The emphasis remains on ToT as well as training to catch the fish by ourselves. One cannot ignore the fact that Military itself can't do much as long as diplomacy is weak. After a long time, we are seeing some progress whereby geopolitics is changing while our diplomatic force is active that pretty much comes handy in regard to fulfill our Military Requirements.
> 
> Once I am weak to pay upfront, the area can be covered by political office. Just look at JF-17 development, our self reliance in regard to manufacturing some offensive weapons by ourselves and then, we are moving ahead with indigenous solutions in mix with ToT from friendly countries. As far as the mix of diplomacy & military chemistry remains affective; you will find more of progress. I will repeat again that not everything is being told to the public but on other hand, pay attention to the development in various areas from diplomatic offices to the geopolitics along with our importance in region and then, the role of Military to maintain the peace then you will see as where we are heading. Conclusively in regard to Military build up, understand the tactics that we don't or cannot rely much upon quantity rather, we choose to take routes with quality & fruition to fulfill our needs as well as helping ourselves to build the best of defence for the country. Be it Air, Land or Sea; just look at how Forces are moving ahead in acquisitions & development.
> 
> Remember that once JF-17 Thunder was in development; was mostly quoted as a counter to LCA Tejas but later on, the same performed much more than expected and proven to be at par with some of the most advanced fighters in arena, in several domains. That does not mean that it comes as a surprise for the Air-Force but our emphasis is on quality & building the most offensive product based upon available weapon option whereby Military will keep it under many wraps. Mirage in current form is delivering good enough and surely, men-in-Blue knows very well as what we need or could be done as per available resources.


Nothing more left to be said after your comprehensive post.  thx.

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> if anything at all, it should be BVR upgrade...with its air frame and no fly by wire..would we want WVR battle?



With HMS/D and A-darter or ASRAAM its possible as our pilots are daredevils.

Although with proper upgrade FBW will be part of it.

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> if anything at all, it should be BVR upgrade...with its air frame and no fly by wire..would we want WVR battle?


HMS will provide that advantage especially the new darter; with over shoulder visual launch.

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## jamal18

Deltadart said:


> Israel did it, SA did it so what is our fear? It's an excuse for not doing something.



_Because_ they can do it, it shows that we can't do it! Pakistani inferiority complex.

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## Jammer

If you don't know who Delta Dart is then you need to pay more attention. This is what is called information warfare. Be advised!

Don't be Stupid!

loose lips sink ships!


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Deltadart said:


> Israel did it, SA did it so what is our fear? It's an excuse for not doing something.


Probably because our airframes are approaching 40-50 years of age. Kfir/Nesher and Cheetahs were new airframes not converted from Mirages. Our production is currently focused on the JF-17 and since the higher ups are convinced the JF-17 is able to cover the role of the Mirage/F-7P/A-5, I doubt anyone will be willing to invest so much in the Mirage.






This airframe in China has been labeled as a IIIEP but it has a much thinner nose akin to the 5, and a different tail than either the regular IIIEP or the 5PA. Looks more similar to a 5EF but the serial number 67-119 obviously belongs to a IIIEP.




There's this photo by Alan Warnes also of a Mirage IIIEP apparently, again with a different nose but this time the tail is correct.
Both of these airframes have a bulge below their noses which isn't the same as a ROSE II/III's FLIR and 5PA airframes don't have it.




A "regular" IIIEP for comparison.
So did the IIIEP come in different variants or have these airframes been misidentified?

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## aliyusuf

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> So did the IIIEP come in different variants or have these airframes been misidentified?


The serial number suggests that no wrong identification occurred. Most likely the nose of the aircraft with serial number 116 was modified at some point of it's service. The photo of the Mirage-IIIEP, below with serial number 101, is with the original nose.



CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Both of these airframes have a bulge below their noses which isn't the same as a ROSE II/III's FLIR and 5PA airframes don't have it.


According to the book "Modern Air Combat by Bill Gunston & Mick Spick" it is a Doppler Rangefinder. How it works is not stated.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

aliyusuf said:


> The serial number suggests that no wrong identification occurred. Most likely the nose of the aircraft with serial number 116 was modified at some point of it's service. The photo of the Mirage-IIIEP, below with serial number 101, is with the original nose.
> 
> 
> According to the book "Modern Air Combat by Bill Gunston & Mick Spick" it is a Doppler Rangefinder. How it works is not stated.







And what about this one? Serial number is 04-105 and the airframe is clearly a 5R and '04 will mean an ex-Libyan 5DR but xx-1xx should mean it's a IIIEP. Maybe the serial conventions have changed or for some reason are probably being used/reused on different airframes.


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## aliyusuf

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> And what about this one? Serial number is 04-105 and the airframe is clearly a 5R and '04 will mean an ex-Libyan 5DR but xx-1xx should mean it's a IIIEP. Maybe the serial conventions have changed or for some reason are probably being used/reused on different airframes.


Very curious indeed. This is definitely not Mirage-IIIEP. You are probably right ... they may have re-serialed all the oldest airworthy Mirage-III/V with the xx-1xx serial scheme.


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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> HMS will provide that advantage especially the new darter; with over shoulder visual launch.


Hi denel if I may ask what kind of HMDS SAF were using with cheetahs and if possible to share the pictures over here 
Thank you


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## Deltadart

Jammer said:


> If you don't know who Delta Dart is then you need to pay more attention. This is what is called information warfare. Be advised!
> 
> Don't be Stupid!
> 
> loose lips sink ships!


Oh not you again. So you managed to crawl out of the hole yet again? Your patriotism is in line with zardari, nawaz and countless other scoundrels.

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## messiach

@denel @Deltadart Your points on SA cheeta while are definitely valid, but we are now committed in developing a highly survivable 5G platform with deep inland and maritime strike capability.

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## GriffinsRule

There was no Mirage aircraft by the serial number 119 in PAF. The one in China is a hodgepodge of parts from different aircraft. Remember PAF bought a lot of airframes for spares that were never put into service and the example in China is one of them.

Mirage IIIEPs were serial 67.101-67.118.

As for the 104 picture you posted, it is serial number 04.104 and is a Mirage VDR and not from the original PAF order.







Now as for 67.116 pictured above, clearly PAF has taken out the original and by now defunct radar of the 70s and replaced it with a nose similar to one on Mirage 5s, but it is the only surviving IIIEP airframe left from the original 18 that were delivered to the PAF in 1967.

That should clear up the confusion.

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## Jammer

Jammer said:


> If you don't know who Delta Dart is then you need to pay more attention. This is what is called information warfare. Be advised!
> 
> Don't be Stupid!
> 
> loose lips sink ships!





Deltadart said:


> Oh not you again. So you managed to crawl out of the hole yet again? Your patriotism is in line with zardari, nawaz and countless other scoundrels.


You are not very smart are you Dart...please regale us with your fake patriotism. Why don't you have a jai hind sandwich and chill out. Once again nice try, my Indian neighbor.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

GriffinsRule said:


> There was no Mirage aircraft by the serial number 119 in PAF. The one in China is a hodgepodge of parts from different aircraft. Remember PAF bought a lot of airframes for spares that were never put into service and the example in China is one of them.
> 
> Mirage IIIEPs were serial 67.101-67.118.
> 
> As for the 104 picture you posted, it is serial number 04.104 and is a Mirage VDR and not from the original PAF order.
> 
> View attachment 582549
> 
> 
> 
> Now as for 67.116 pictured above, clearly PAF has taken out the original and by now defunct radar of the 70s and replaced it with a nose similar to one on Mirage 5s, but it is the only surviving IIIEP airframe left from the original 18 that were delivered to the PAF in 1967.
> 
> That should clear up the confusion.


Thanks a lot for clearing that up. So does 116 lack a radar now and as such is pretty much a Mirage 5?
And why "105" when all other Libyan M5's are "04-0xx"?


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Since the 15 undertook one of the raids on 27 Feb and 67-116 is serving in the 15, does that mean that this veteran of the '71 war probably went against the Indians after 48 whole years and came out on top again?

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## Kabotar

messiach said:


> @denel @Deltadart Your points on SA cheeta while are definitely valid, but we are now committed in developing a highly survivable 5G platform with deep inland and maritime strike capability.



What timelines are we targeting for first flight and induction?


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## hassan1



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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 582707


Delivered in November 1990. Served with No.5 squadron, later transferred to No.15.

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## Basel

messiach said:


> @denel @Deltadart Your points on SA cheeta while are definitely valid, *but we are now committed in developing a highly survivable 5G platform with deep inland and maritime strike capability*.



Does bold part means our 5th gen will be in size or par with J-20??


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## TsAr

Basel said:


> Does bold part means our 5th gen will be in size or par with J-20??


What this means is that it will have capabilitiy of deep strikes and would be a dual engine, I am correct @messiach


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## Kabotar

TsAr said:


> What this means is that it will have capabilitiy of deep strikes and would be a dual engine, I am correct @messiach



I think engine config will depend on whether we are able to get the right engine. In one of the post @messiach said that we are looking for one 140kn+ or two 80kn+ engines. Don't know if it is wet thrust or dry thrust, most probably dry.

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## Quwa

Kabotar said:


> I think engine config will depend on whether we are able to get the right engine. In one of the post @messiach said that we are looking for one 140kn+ or two 80kn+ engines. Don't know if it is wet thrust or dry thrust, most probably dry.


As per the CAS' most recent interview with Jane's (May 2019), the ASR is at two engines right now.

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## Kabotar

Quwa said:


> As per the CAS' most recent interview with Jane's (May 2019), the ASR is at two engines right now.



Makes sense there aren't many 140kn+ engines. Knob question is she mentioning dry thrust or wet?


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## messiach

Basel said:


> Does bold part means our 5th gen will be in size or par with J-20??


@TsAr I am not directly privy to this information but a team of CADI/CATIC from the H6 is at it, the same who single-handedly developed FC1.

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## Kabotar

messiach said:


> @TsAr I am not directly privy to this information but a team of CADI/CATIC from the H6 is at it, the same who single-handedly developed FC1.



I came across this article. The timeline doesn't seem right.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...oject-azm-fifth-generation-fighter-with-china

Pakistan is one of the few counties to have successfully launched a fourth generation fighter, the JF-17, a light multirole platform developed alongside China and available for export. Where the forth generation programs of other countries such as Israel's Lavi and India's Tejas have stalled or been cancelled, Pakistan has with Chinese assistance made the bulk of its fleet largely independent of foreign aquisitions - though the coutnry may still require heavier air superiority fighters from abroad if it seeks to match countries India's lethal Su-30MKI in the air. Following on from the success of the JF-17, Pakistan has begun a joint fifth generation fighter program with China.

Much like the JF-17, Pakistan's fifth generation fighter is almost certain to be a light and low cost platform - more similar to the cheaper and smaller F-35 and J-31 than the J-20 and F-22. The development of a fifth generation fighter is nevertheless an unexpected and somewhat incredible feat for a country with a GDP of just $280 billion. The only countries which have embarked on fifth generation programs successfully have been the United States, China and Russia - with Japan having produced a prototype and South Korea and Turkey stalling in their own development programs. Pakistan's entry into the fifth generation fighter league is a significant step for the country's prestige, and demonstrates both the potency of its indigenous defense industries and the value of Chinese technological assistance.

In the inaugural session of AirTech 2017, a conference held at Islamabad's Air University, the Pakistan Air Force's Chief of Air Staff Sohail Aman stated that: "Pakistan is engaged with Chinese experts in manufacturing the next generation aircraft. China is also providing technical assistance for launching the satellite programme." The fighter program was known as Project Azm, and was expected to significantly expand the country's aviation industry. The project also represents Pakistan's increasing independence from the United States in its defense sector amid souring relations between the two countries. *With production for a fifth generation platform having been scheduled for 2022*, the project's schedule is extremely ambitious but with Chinese technological assistance may well be possible. Project Azm is however unlikely to mitigate Pakistan's need for a heavy air superiority fighter to match India's Su-30 - as much like the F-35 and J-31 light fighters it will be unable to contend with such platform regardless of its stealth capabilities.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Kabotar said:


> I came across this article. The timeline doesn't seem right.
> 
> https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...oject-azm-fifth-generation-fighter-with-china
> 
> Pakistan is one of the few counties to have successfully launched a fourth generation fighter, the JF-17, a light multirole platform developed alongside China and available for export. Where the forth generation programs of other countries such as Israel's Lavi and India's Tejas have stalled or been cancelled, Pakistan has with Chinese assistance made the bulk of its fleet largely independent of foreign aquisitions - though the coutnry may still require heavier air superiority fighters from abroad if it seeks to match countries India's lethal Su-30MKI in the air. Following on from the success of the JF-17, Pakistan has begun a joint fifth generation fighter program with China.
> 
> Much like the JF-17, Pakistan's fifth generation fighter is almost certain to be a light and low cost platform - more similar to the cheaper and smaller F-35 and J-31 than the J-20 and F-22. The development of a fifth generation fighter is nevertheless an unexpected and somewhat incredible feat for a country with a GDP of just $280 billion. The only countries which have embarked on fifth generation programs successfully have been the United States, China and Russia - with Japan having produced a prototype and South Korea and Turkey stalling in their own development programs. Pakistan's entry into the fifth generation fighter league is a significant step for the country's prestige, and demonstrates both the potency of its indigenous defense industries and the value of Chinese technological assistance.
> 
> In the inaugural session of AirTech 2017, a conference held at Islamabad's Air University, the Pakistan Air Force's Chief of Air Staff Sohail Aman stated that: "Pakistan is engaged with Chinese experts in manufacturing the next generation aircraft. China is also providing technical assistance for launching the satellite programme." The fighter program was known as Project Azm, and was expected to significantly expand the country's aviation industry. The project also represents Pakistan's increasing independence from the United States in its defense sector amid souring relations between the two countries. *With production for a fifth generation platform having been scheduled for 2022*, the project's schedule is extremely ambitious but with Chinese technological assistance may well be possible. Project Azm is however unlikely to mitigate Pakistan's need for a heavy air superiority fighter to match India's Su-30 - as much like the F-35 and J-31 light fighters it will be unable to contend with such platform regardless of its stealth capabilities.


Dawn quoted the then CAS, ACM Sohail Aman, stating, "it will take five years to initiate the production of fifth-generation aircraft". He was also quoted by the ICCI saying Pakistan designed the Azm FGFA in 2 years, which (seeing the MoDP report) probably means the initial design work was done in that time. There are still 3 more cycles to go. But even with full Chinese assistance, I think ACM Aman meant that the prototype will be built by 2022, or even more likely, a technology demonstrator.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Dawn quoted the then CAS, ACM Sohail Aman, stating, "it will take five years to initiate the production of fifth-generation aircraft". He was also quoted by the ICCI saying Pakistan designed the Azm FGFA in 2 years, which (seeing the MoDP report) probably means the initial design work was done in that time. There are still 3 more cycles to go. But even with full Chinese assistance, I think ACM Aman meant that the prototype will be built by 2022, or even more likely, a technology demonstrator.


We may not see one in the air until 2027. Expect similar delays as to JF-17 program due to economic and technological absorption constraints

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> We may not see one in the air until 2027. Expect similar delays as to JF-17 program due to economic and technological absorption constraints


What worries me is the technology demonstrator. If it's a new clean-sheet design, then even CAC would need to fly a tech demo for at least 3-4 years before the first prototype. And if we talk about jointly made engines, FBW, etc, then they'll need to do a lot of work on the demo ahead of real prototype development.

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## Falcon26

Since PAF took the more risky and expensive route to the 5th generation fighter program; if PAF doesn’t select another jet to complement the Thunder and Falcons, this decade might go down the same wasted years as the 90s. With the arrival of the Rafael, IAF for the first time will have both qualitative and quantitative edge over the PAF. With the belligerence of the Hindu nationalists, this is a deadly combination.

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## Kabotar

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> What worries me is the technology demonstrator. If it's a new clean-sheet design, then even CAC would need to fly a tech demo for at least 3-4 years before the first prototype. And if we talk about jointly made engines, FBW, etc, then they'll need to do a lot of work on the demo ahead of real prototype development.



Is AZM the "mini J20" that CAC are pitching for PLAN?
@messiach @Deino @Oscar

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## Basel

Kabotar said:


> Is AZM the "mini J20" that CAC are pitching for PLAN?
> @messiach @Deino @Oscar



J-31 is not deep strike bird so its possible as member here posted the possible PAF requirement.


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## Deino

Kabotar said:


> Is AZM the "mini J20" that CAC are pitching for PLAN?
> @messiach @Deino @Oscar




There is no mini-J-20

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## Sine Nomine

Oscar said:


> technological absorption constraints


What are these?
name a few.


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## Basel

Deino said:


> There is no mini-J-20



There was single engine design based on J-20.


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## Deino

Basel said:


> There was single engine design based on J-20.



Really? AFAIK this is nothing confirmed and most likely only fan-made.


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## Basel

Deino said:


> Really? AFAIK this is nothing confirmed and most likely only fan-made.



Nope, AVIC had many stealth designs to offer its customers if they are willing to have JV in 5th gen bird project.


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## Deino

Basel said:


> Nope, AVIC had many stealth designs to offer its customers if they are willing to have JV in 5th gen bird project.



Any proof for that that "AVIC had many stealth designs to offer its customers"?? Again, from all I know none of these concepts posted or published were authorative ones from AVIC or CAC, they were all speculative ones from fans. But I would love to learn more if You know more and have an authorative one.


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## Kabotar

Deino said:


> There is no mini-J-20



Picked it from here

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...-stealth-fighters-its-aircraft-carriers-76581
*See This Picture? China May Soon Have Stealth Fighters for Its Aircraft Carriers*
And it could be the J-20. 

by Michael Peck
The race to build China’s carrier-based stealth fighter may be over.

SPONSORED CONTENT
Recommended by

The competition had been between the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation’s J-20 and the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation’s FC-31 over which aircraft would fly from China’s next generation of aircraft carriers.

And the winner is...the J-20, according to the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post.

A Chinese military source told the Post that the Central Military Commission favored the J-20. “The Chengdu Aerospace Corporation will announce some new products, which will include a new version of their J-20,” the source said. “You can guess what type it will be.”

If true, this would end a long debate over whether the J-20 or FC-31 – both of which are under development -- is the more worthy candidate. The J-20 is a bigger, heavier aircraft, while the FC-31 is smaller and lighter. “Those who favored the J-20 said it was more advanced and reliable than the FC-31,” while the FC-31 is considered more maneuverable, the Post said.






0
seconds
*Do You Know What Happened Today In History?*

Details of the J-20 “Powerful Dragon” are sparse, but it is a twin-engined, 35-ton fighter that is 67 feet long and a wingspan of 42 feet, as well as Mach 2 speed and an estimated range of 1,200 to 2,000 miles. The 28-ton FC-31 is 55 feet long and a wingspan of 38 feet, as well as Mach 1.8 speed and a combat range of 745 miles, according to its manufacturer. The Shenyang Aircraft Corporation already makes China’s current carrier-based jet, the J-15, an unlicensed copy of an old Soviet design and an aircraft that has been plagued by numerous crashes.

The J-20 is a distinctive-looking aircraft with its canards – little winglets – just behind the cockpit, and is often compared to an F-22. The FC-31 resembles an F-35.

The F-22/F-35 comparison actually applies in several ways. While the manufacturers of the J-20 and FC-31 are competitors, they both are part of state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, and vie for contracts like U.S. defense firms do. The J-20 and FC-31 contest is similar to the U.S. military’s heavy/light fighter debates, such as the F-15 versus F-16 or F-22 versus F-35. The U.S. eventually ended up with 187 F-22s – considered the world’s premier air superiority fighter, but very expensive at more than $400 million apiece. Instead the bulk of the U.S. fighter force will be more than 2,000 F-35s, whose price has recently dropped to $80 million each.

The F-35 is still very much a work in progress, with numerous defects reported by government auditors. The J-20, conceived as a land-based stealth fighter, will also need some work before it can be based on China’s next generation of aircraft carriers, which will use new electromagnetic catapults capable of launching heavier aircraft than conventional catapults can. “The key problem of the J-20 is not weight, but length,” the military source told the Post. *“If it wants to be a carrier-based fighter jet, it needs to be made shorter.”*


There is also the perpetual Chinese problem with jet engines. “At present both the J-20 and F-31 still rely on Russian engines,” the Post noted. “The WS-15 engine that has been purpose built for the J-20 has undergone hundreds of hours of testing but has yet to meet reliability targets, while the F-31 prototype does not have a purpose-built engine,” said the Post.

If the Chinese navy did pick the J-20, it is noteworthy that it opted for the heavier and presumably more expensive aircraft, but with longer range and payload than its competitor.


One Chinese commentator did suggest to the Post that the Chinese navy could develop both the J-20 and FC-31 as a complementary duo. “But another military source close to the PLA Navy said it would be almost impossible to develop both aircraft over the next few years given the risk of an economic downturn as the trade war with the US continues to escalate,” the Post said.


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## Deino

Kabotar said:


> Picked it from here
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...-stealth-fighters-its-aircraft-carriers-76581
> *See This Picture? China May Soon Have Stealth Fighters for Its Aircraft Carriers*
> And it could be the J-20.
> 
> by Michael Peck
> The race to build China’s carrier-based stealth fighter may be over.
> 
> SPONSORED CONTENT
> Recommended by
> 
> The competition had been between the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation’s J-20 and the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation’s FC-31 over which aircraft would fly from China’s next generation of aircraft carriers.
> 
> And the winner is...the J-20, according to the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post.
> 
> A Chinese military source told the Post that the Central Military Commission favored the J-20. “The Chengdu Aerospace Corporation will announce some new products, which will include a new version of their J-20,” the source said. “You can guess what type it will be.”
> 
> If true, this would end a long debate over whether the J-20 or FC-31 – both of which are under development -- is the more worthy candidate. The J-20 is a bigger, heavier aircraft, while the FC-31 is smaller and lighter. “Those who favored the J-20 said it was more advanced and reliable than the FC-31,” while the FC-31 is considered more maneuverable, the Post said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 0
> seconds
> *Do You Know What Happened Today In History?*
> 
> Details of the J-20 “Powerful Dragon” are sparse, but it is a twin-engined, 35-ton fighter that is 67 feet long and a wingspan of 42 feet, as well as Mach 2 speed and an estimated range of 1,200 to 2,000 miles. The 28-ton FC-31 is 55 feet long and a wingspan of 38 feet, as well as Mach 1.8 speed and a combat range of 745 miles, according to its manufacturer. The Shenyang Aircraft Corporation already makes China’s current carrier-based jet, the J-15, an unlicensed copy of an old Soviet design and an aircraft that has been plagued by numerous crashes.
> 
> The J-20 is a distinctive-looking aircraft with its canards – little winglets – just behind the cockpit, and is often compared to an F-22. The FC-31 resembles an F-35.
> 
> The F-22/F-35 comparison actually applies in several ways. While the manufacturers of the J-20 and FC-31 are competitors, they both are part of state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, and vie for contracts like U.S. defense firms do. The J-20 and FC-31 contest is similar to the U.S. military’s heavy/light fighter debates, such as the F-15 versus F-16 or F-22 versus F-35. The U.S. eventually ended up with 187 F-22s – considered the world’s premier air superiority fighter, but very expensive at more than $400 million apiece. Instead the bulk of the U.S. fighter force will be more than 2,000 F-35s, whose price has recently dropped to $80 million each.
> 
> The F-35 is still very much a work in progress, with numerous defects reported by government auditors. The J-20, conceived as a land-based stealth fighter, will also need some work before it can be based on China’s next generation of aircraft carriers, which will use new electromagnetic catapults capable of launching heavier aircraft than conventional catapults can. “The key problem of the J-20 is not weight, but length,” the military source told the Post. *“If it wants to be a carrier-based fighter jet, it needs to be made shorter.”*
> 
> 
> There is also the perpetual Chinese problem with jet engines. “At present both the J-20 and F-31 still rely on Russian engines,” the Post noted. “The WS-15 engine that has been purpose built for the J-20 has undergone hundreds of hours of testing but has yet to meet reliability targets, while the F-31 prototype does not have a purpose-built engine,” said the Post.
> 
> If the Chinese navy did pick the J-20, it is noteworthy that it opted for the heavier and presumably more expensive aircraft, but with longer range and payload than its competitor.
> 
> 
> One Chinese commentator did suggest to the Post that the Chinese navy could develop both the J-20 and FC-31 as a complementary duo. “But another military source close to the PLA Navy said it would be almost impossible to develop both aircraft over the next few years given the risk of an economic downturn as the trade war with the US continues to escalate,” the Post said.



Surely not. This is one of these fan-made artworks showing not a shorter J-20 or even a single engined mini J-20 but a regular naval one. Also thus report is based on Minnie Chan's report and we all know how unreliable and even wrong she is.

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## Kabotar

Deino said:


> Surely not. This is one of these fan-made artworks showing not a shorter J-20 or even a single engined mini J-20 but a regular naval one. Also thus report is based on Minnie Chan's report and we all know how unreliable and even wrong she is.



Ok


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## The Accountant

Picture looks like a photoshop.

A plane tied to ribbons has open weapon bays and engine running ... Not possible


Kabotar said:


> Picked it from here
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...-stealth-fighters-its-aircraft-carriers-76581
> *See This Picture? China May Soon Have Stealth Fighters for Its Aircraft Carriers*
> And it could be the J-20.
> 
> by Michael Peck
> The race to build China’s carrier-based stealth fighter may be over.
> 
> SPONSORED CONTENT
> Recommended by
> 
> The competition had been between the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation’s J-20 and the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation’s FC-31 over which aircraft would fly from China’s next generation of aircraft carriers.
> 
> And the winner is...the J-20, according to the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post.
> 
> A Chinese military source told the Post that the Central Military Commission favored the J-20. “The Chengdu Aerospace Corporation will announce some new products, which will include a new version of their J-20,” the source said. “You can guess what type it will be.”
> 
> If true, this would end a long debate over whether the J-20 or FC-31 – both of which are under development -- is the more worthy candidate. The J-20 is a bigger, heavier aircraft, while the FC-31 is smaller and lighter. “Those who favored the J-20 said it was more advanced and reliable than the FC-31,” while the FC-31 is considered more maneuverable, the Post said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 0
> seconds
> *Do You Know What Happened Today In History?*
> 
> Details of the J-20 “Powerful Dragon” are sparse, but it is a twin-engined, 35-ton fighter that is 67 feet long and a wingspan of 42 feet, as well as Mach 2 speed and an estimated range of 1,200 to 2,000 miles. The 28-ton FC-31 is 55 feet long and a wingspan of 38 feet, as well as Mach 1.8 speed and a combat range of 745 miles, according to its manufacturer. The Shenyang Aircraft Corporation already makes China’s current carrier-based jet, the J-15, an unlicensed copy of an old Soviet design and an aircraft that has been plagued by numerous crashes.
> 
> The J-20 is a distinctive-looking aircraft with its canards – little winglets – just behind the cockpit, and is often compared to an F-22. The FC-31 resembles an F-35.
> 
> The F-22/F-35 comparison actually applies in several ways. While the manufacturers of the J-20 and FC-31 are competitors, they both are part of state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, and vie for contracts like U.S. defense firms do. The J-20 and FC-31 contest is similar to the U.S. military’s heavy/light fighter debates, such as the F-15 versus F-16 or F-22 versus F-35. The U.S. eventually ended up with 187 F-22s – considered the world’s premier air superiority fighter, but very expensive at more than $400 million apiece. Instead the bulk of the U.S. fighter force will be more than 2,000 F-35s, whose price has recently dropped to $80 million each.
> 
> The F-35 is still very much a work in progress, with numerous defects reported by government auditors. The J-20, conceived as a land-based stealth fighter, will also need some work before it can be based on China’s next generation of aircraft carriers, which will use new electromagnetic catapults capable of launching heavier aircraft than conventional catapults can. “The key problem of the J-20 is not weight, but length,” the military source told the Post. *“If it wants to be a carrier-based fighter jet, it needs to be made shorter.”*
> 
> 
> There is also the perpetual Chinese problem with jet engines. “At present both the J-20 and F-31 still rely on Russian engines,” the Post noted. “The WS-15 engine that has been purpose built for the J-20 has undergone hundreds of hours of testing but has yet to meet reliability targets, while the F-31 prototype does not have a purpose-built engine,” said the Post.
> 
> If the Chinese navy did pick the J-20, it is noteworthy that it opted for the heavier and presumably more expensive aircraft, but with longer range and payload than its competitor.
> 
> 
> One Chinese commentator did suggest to the Post that the Chinese navy could develop both the J-20 and FC-31 as a complementary duo. “But another military source close to the PLA Navy said it would be almost impossible to develop both aircraft over the next few years given the risk of an economic downturn as the trade war with the US continues to escalate,” the Post said.


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## Kabotar

The Accountant said:


> Picture looks like a photoshop.
> 
> A plane tied to ribbons has open weapon bays and engine running ... Not possible



Off course it's photoshopped and a bad one at that. I was pointing towards the text.


----------



## Basel

Deino said:


> Any proof for that that "AVIC had many stealth designs to offer its customers"?? Again, from all I know none of these concepts posted or published were authorative ones from AVIC or CAC, they were all speculative ones from fans. But I would love to learn more if You know more and have an authorative one.



PAF was presented with many designs for JV and as PAF was interested in J-20 (which is not for sale) that is why a solution based on it was also there.


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## denel

Basel said:


> With HMS/D and A-darter or ASRAAM its possible as our pilots are daredevils.
> 
> Although with proper upgrade FBW will be part of it.


A-Darter is already certified and mating to M3 should not be a challenge

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## Basel

denel said:


> A-Darter is already certified and mating to M3 should not be a challenge



If similar AAM is not available then PAF should go for A-Darter with HMS/D for full fleet, it now needed.

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## khanasifm

denel said:


> A-Darter is already certified and mating to M3 should not be a challenge



No evidence ??


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## Kabotar

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> What worries me is the technology demonstrator. If it's a new clean-sheet design, then even CAC would need to fly a tech demo for at least 3-4 years before the first prototype. And if we talk about jointly made engines, FBW, etc, then they'll need to do a lot of work on the demo ahead of real prototype development.



Are we going jointly make engines?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Kabotar said:


> Are we going jointly make engines?


This is what the current CAS said, word for word:

*Next Generation Fighter*
Spearheading that vision is the development of a 5th Generation aircraft. “We can’t afford to lag behind others”.

Regional stability is undoubtedly the focus of his concern. “The geo-political and geo-strategic situation means that we have to maintain a strategic balance in the region and we need to be build it up now”.

We know that when other countries have inducted new generation fighter aircraft, they have been badly prepared for the training. Developing a new generation aircraft is always a difficult proposition, but over the years the PAF has succeeded in facing these challenges.

“I want to make sure that we have certain potent capacities and capabilities right across our aircraft, battle systems and our training too. Education will play a big part in that. It might seem a long time away but with technologies continuing to evolve at such a fast pace we have to remain focused on what that could be.

The PAF has been working on a 5th Generation fighter for almost a year now and it is likely to take at least a couple of years before it is flying. *“It is indigenous at this time – we will be self-reliant and not dependent upon western or eastern partners”.*

That is a tall task, considering the Chinese have struggled to develop indigenous power plants for their own fighters, but the Chief is adamant and aware of the huge challenges the PAF faces on this project. It will of course have to be ITAR-free, because Pakistan has suffered so many times in the past from United States sanctions.

“It will be collaborated with private industry and our academia. Our Aviation City is being built up now, that will one day work towards building a brighter future for our aerospace industry. Aviation education is almost non-existent in Pakistan and we need to fix that. We are setting up our own aviation hub and now formulating our vision which will cover manufacturing facilities and laboratories”.

“We have recently opened up a new university too, albeit in a make-shift location and we will link all of this to developing our own 5th Generation fighter and commercial aircraft”.

https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2019/01/pakistan-air-force-builds-for-the-future/​So, yes, the goal is to not just manufacture this fighter's engines, but literally build an advanced industry base in Pakistan.

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## Kabotar

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is what the current CAS said, word for word:
> 
> *Next Generation Fighter*
> Spearheading that vision is the development of a 5th Generation aircraft. “We can’t afford to lag behind others”.
> 
> Regional stability is undoubtedly the focus of his concern. “The geo-political and geo-strategic situation means that we have to maintain a strategic balance in the region and we need to be build it up now”.
> 
> We know that when other countries have inducted new generation fighter aircraft, they have been badly prepared for the training. Developing a new generation aircraft is always a difficult proposition, but over the years the PAF has succeeded in facing these challenges.
> 
> “I want to make sure that we have certain potent capacities and capabilities right across our aircraft, battle systems and our training too. Education will play a big part in that. It might seem a long time away but with technologies continuing to evolve at such a fast pace we have to remain focused on what that could be.
> 
> The PAF has been working on a 5th Generation fighter for almost a year now and it is likely to take *at least a couple of years* before it is flying. *“It is indigenous at this time – we will be self-reliant and not dependent upon western or eastern partners”.*
> 
> That is a tall task, considering the Chinese have struggled to develop indigenous power plants for their own fighters, but the Chief is adamant and aware of the huge challenges the PAF faces on this project. It will of course have to be ITAR-free, because Pakistan has suffered so many times in the past from United States sanctions.
> 
> “It will be collaborated with private industry and our academia. Our Aviation City is being built up now, that will one day work towards building a brighter future for our aerospace industry. Aviation education is almost non-existent in Pakistan and we need to fix that. We are setting up our own aviation hub and now formulating our vision which will cover manufacturing facilities and laboratories”.
> 
> “We have recently opened up a new university too, albeit in a make-shift location and we will link all of this to developing our own 5th Generation fighter and commercial aircraft”.
> 
> https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2019/01/pakistan-air-force-builds-for-the-future/​So, yes, the goal is to not just manufacture this fighter's engines, but literally build an advanced industry base in Pakistan.



That's monumental task. I was under the impression that we are going to replicate JF17 program but this time we would contribute more on R&D. But why is everyone adamant that it will fly soon, whether it is this article or previous CAS.


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## jupiter2007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is what the current CAS said, word for word:
> 
> *Next Generation Fighter*
> Spearheading that vision is the development of a 5th Generation aircraft. “We can’t afford to lag behind others”.
> 
> Regional stability is undoubtedly the focus of his concern. “The geo-political and geo-strategic situation means that we have to maintain a strategic balance in the region and we need to be build it up now”.
> 
> We know that when other countries have inducted new generation fighter aircraft, they have been badly prepared for the training. Developing a new generation aircraft is always a difficult proposition, but over the years the PAF has succeeded in facing these challenges.
> 
> “I want to make sure that we have certain potent capacities and capabilities right across our aircraft, battle systems and our training too. Education will play a big part in that. It might seem a long time away but with technologies continuing to evolve at such a fast pace we have to remain focused on what that could be.
> 
> The PAF has been working on a 5th Generation fighter for almost a year now and it is likely to take at least a couple of years before it is flying. *“It is indigenous at this time – we will be self-reliant and not dependent upon western or eastern partners”.*
> 
> That is a tall task, considering the Chinese have struggled to develop indigenous power plants for their own fighters, but the Chief is adamant and aware of the huge challenges the PAF faces on this project. It will of course have to be ITAR-free, because Pakistan has suffered so many times in the past from United States sanctions.
> 
> “It will be collaborated with private industry and our academia. Our Aviation City is being built up now, that will one day work towards building a brighter future for our aerospace industry. Aviation education is almost non-existent in Pakistan and we need to fix that. We are setting up our own aviation hub and now formulating our vision which will cover manufacturing facilities and laboratories”.
> 
> “We have recently opened up a new university too, albeit in a make-shift location and we will link all of this to developing our own 5th Generation fighter and commercial aircraft”.
> 
> https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2019/01/pakistan-air-force-builds-for-the-future/​So, yes, the goal is to not just manufacture this fighter's engines, but literally build an advanced industry base in Pakistan.



These are some Very big statements but we all know it takes decades not couple of years to have the required infrastructure to build 100% aircraft at home. He’s not talking about simple aircraft, he specifically talking about 5th generations fighter. Only few western countries have been able to produce 4th generations fighter, this not an easy task.

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## Quwa

Kabotar said:


> That's monumental task. I was under the impression that we are going to replicate JF17 program but this time we would contribute more on R&D. But why is everyone adamant that it will fly soon, whether it is this article or previous CAS.





jupiter2007 said:


> These are some Very big statements but we all know it take decades not couple of years to have the required infrastructure to build 100% aircraft at home. He’s not talking about simple aircraft, he specifically talking about 5th generations fighter. Only few countries in the western world have been able to produce 4th generations fighter, this not an easy task.


It's a situation of necessity driving action.

Pakistan is perpetually short on dollars.

Pakistan is regularly denied new tech.

India has every support mechanism available, Pakistan has none (that India can't counter).

There's no other way than to develop and make your own high performance jet at home, and to localize every critical component.

In a way, the PAF embraced the logic of those who spearheaded our nuclear program in the 1970s, i.e. trust no one, and employ a deterrent. 

So, is it ambitious? Yes. Is it difficult? Yes.

That said, there are places where Pakistan can learn a lot about it. You have Brazil, it knows a lot about aircraft supply chain management. There is also Ukraine, which knows gas turbines and engine technology. And finally, there's South Africa, which tried making a next gen jet (in the 1980s this was the 4 / 4.5 gen Carver), and that too 100% local, so it has a lot of expertise and lessons.

You also lack any counter incentive in Pakistan. In India, you have multiple factions jockeying to sell imports, which negatively can affect homegrown work. That's not there in Pakistan.

In Pakistan, it's basically Azm or nothing. So it will move forward. There'll be delays, issues, etc, but in the end, the payoff is really, really huge.

You develop a gas turbine industry which will cut imports and drive high value exports.

You develop a composites fabrication industry that will drive high value exports.

You expand the engineering design and testing base, which, again, will drive exports.

Those exports will bring dollars, and we can really put that towards nation building while also meeting our national defence needs.

Plus, we need to have some faith as well. If we put in all of the effort, and for the right reasons, we can also expect good things. It's in our beliefs.

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## jupiter2007

Quwa said:


> It's a situation of necessity driving action.
> 
> Pakistan is perpetually short on dollars.
> 
> Pakistan is regularly denied new tech.
> 
> India has every support mechanism available, Pakistan has none (that India can't counter).
> 
> There's no other way than to develop and make your own high performance jet at home, and to localize every critical component.
> 
> In a way, the PAF embraced the logic of those who spearheaded our nuclear program in the 1970s, i.e. trust no one, and employ a deterrent.
> 
> So, is it ambitious? Yes. Is it difficult? Yes.
> 
> That said, there are places where Pakistan can learn a lot about it. You have Brazil, it knows a lot about aircraft supply chain management. There is also Ukraine, which knows gas turbines and engine technology. And finally, there's South Africa, which tried making a next gen jet (in the 1980s this was the 4 / 4.5 gen Carver), and that too 100% local, so it has a lot of expertise and lessons.
> 
> You also lack any counter incentive in Pakistan. In India, you have multiple factions jockeying to sell imports, which negatively can affect homegrown work. That's not there in Pakistan.
> 
> In Pakistan, it's basically Azm or nothing. So it will move forward. There'll be delays, issues, etc, but in the end, the payoff is really, really huge.
> 
> You develop a gas turbine industry which will cut imports and drive high value exports.
> 
> You develop a composites fabrication industry that will drive high value exports.
> 
> You expand the engineering design and testing base, which, again, will drive exports.
> 
> Those exports will bring dollars, and we can really put that towards nation building while also meeting our national defence needs.
> 
> Plus, we need to have some faith as well. If we put in all of the effort, and for the right reasons, we can also expect good things. It's in our beliefs.



We still depend on Chinese for even simple update to JF-17, is it possible to have 5th generations fighter flying in 2 to 3 years? Unless he is taking about redesign heavier JF-17 Block4 (Possibly with two engines) with empty weight of 9000KG.

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## jamal18

Guys, I am a little confused. Did the man actually _say _Pakistan is making it's own power plant?


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## Quwa

jupiter2007 said:


> We still depend on Chinese for even simple update to JF-17, is it possible to have 5th generations fighter flying in 2 to 3 years? Unless he is taking about redesign heavier JF-17 Block4 (Possibly with two engines) with empty weight of 9000KG.


I don't think we'll see a prototype until 2030, but we might see tech demonstrators in the mid-2020s to help us develop those technologies.

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## Kabotar

Quwa said:


> I don't think we'll see a prototype until 2030, but we might see tech demonstrators in the mid-2020s to help us develop those technologies.



@messiach @Oscar @Dazzler


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## SQ8

Kabotar said:


> @messiach @Oscar @Dazzler


Mentioned the same earlier.AZM will face the same financial and technological delays as the Block-3

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## messiach

Work is at fast pace. We shall see it much earlie than 2030.



Kabotar said:


> @messiach @Oscar @Dazzler

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Quwa said:


> It's a situation of necessity driving action.
> 
> Pakistan is perpetually short on dollars.
> 
> Pakistan is regularly denied new tech.
> 
> India has every support mechanism available, Pakistan has none (that India can't counter).
> 
> There's no other way than to develop and make your own high performance jet at home, and to localize every critical component.
> 
> In a way, the PAF embraced the logic of those who spearheaded our nuclear program in the 1970s, i.e. trust no one, and employ a deterrent.
> 
> So, is it ambitious? Yes. Is it difficult? Yes.
> 
> That said, there are places where Pakistan can learn a lot about it. You have Brazil, it knows a lot about aircraft supply chain management. There is also Ukraine, which knows gas turbines and engine technology. And finally, there's South Africa, which tried making a next gen jet (in the 1980s this was the 4 / 4.5 gen Carver), and that too 100% local, so it has a lot of expertise and lessons.
> 
> You also lack any counter incentive in Pakistan. In India, you have multiple factions jockeying to sell imports, which negatively can affect homegrown work. That's not there in Pakistan.
> 
> In Pakistan, it's basically Azm or nothing. So it will move forward. There'll be delays, issues, etc, but in the end, the payoff is really, really huge.
> 
> You develop a gas turbine industry which will cut imports and drive high value exports.
> 
> You develop a composites fabrication industry that will drive high value exports.
> 
> You expand the engineering design and testing base, which, again, will drive exports.
> 
> Those exports will bring dollars, and we can really put that towards nation building while also meeting our national defence needs.
> 
> Plus, we need to have some faith as well. If we put in all of the effort, and for the right reasons, we can also expect good things. It's in our beliefs.


Now or Never, Direct Action, Eat Grass, Swift Retort etc. always pay off for Pak....



messiach said:


> Work is at fast pace. We shall see it much earlie than 2030.


_Insha'Allah_ TFX and Azm will fly together in a "closed loop feedback" manner....

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## messiach

Exciting.



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Now or Never, Direct Action, Eat Grass, Swift Retort etc. always pay off for Pak....
> 
> 
> _Insha'Allah_ TFX and Azm will fly together in a "closed loop feedback" manner....


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## mshan44

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## sparten

messiach said:


> Work is at fast pace. We shall see it much earlie than 2030.


Does this mean PAF has gone all in on AZM? They were not before.

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## denel

Janes Mil Balance notes use of U(pgraded)-Darter which is nothing more than upgraded V3C. Is it operational of M3/5 still or retired?


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## khanasifm

denel said:


> Janes Mil Balance notes use of U(pgraded)-Darter which is nothing more than upgraded V3C. Is it operational of M3/5 still or retired?



Paf mirages ? No evidence to support mirage 3s with radar has Lima and non radar ones older papa that’s it


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Paf mirages ? No evidence to support mirage 4 with radar has Lima and non radar ones older papa that’s it


Yes, i was a bit surprised when i read mil balance 2018; if you check it it notes U-Darter


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## Dreamer.

denel said:


> Janes Mil Balance notes use of U(pgraded)-Darter which is nothing more than upgraded V3C. Is it operational of M3/5 still or retired?


Pardon my ignorance, but what is V3C?
As for Darters with Mirages, the rumours have been on internet for ages but no idea if it's a fact.


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## denel

Dreamer. said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but what is V3C?
> As for Darters with Mirages, the rumours have been on internet for ages but no idea if it's a fact.


V3C was a further longer range version of the 3rd gen Darter v3b with some more mods; A-Darter is the newer replacement which has been certified for use; both Brazil and SAAF will be using them on the Gripens.

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## khanasifm

denel said:


> V3C was a further longer range version of the 3rd gen Darter v3b with some more mods; A-Darter is the newer replacement which has been certified for use; both Brazil and SAAF will be using them on the Gripens.



V3 kurki were just copy of matra550 French dogfight missiles

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## denel

khanasifm said:


> V3 kurki were just copy of matra550 French dogfight missiles
> 
> View attachment 584698


Actually not correct on all accounts; the image information is wrong. V1 was derivative of 550 not AIM series - it's head of that of AIM9B - but there were serious problems with IR differentiation and highly prone to errors. An improved version using a later 550 and a totally new head came out as V3A. This is where 550 commonality ends. V3B Kukri improved the seeker envelope and motor, fuze, explosive but still it was very disappointing performance; there were some components from Shafrir-2. V3C (U-Darter) was redesigned across the board and comparable to Magic 2/AIM9L including dual moving canards; both V3B and V3C tied to HMDs on our F1/M3/Cheetah; at the time, neither French or Americans had put HMD systems.

My first ever integration work of HMD was on V3C (U-Darter) on Cheetah.
Hope this clarifies it.

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## khanasifm

denel said:


> Actually not correct on all accounts; the image information is wrong. V1 was derivative of 550 not AIM series - it's head of that of AIM9B - but there were serious problems with IR differentiation and highly prone to errors. An improved version using a later 550 and a totally new head came out as V3A. This is where 550 commonality ends. V3B Kukri improved the seeker envelope and motor, fuze, explosive but still it was very disappointing performance; there were some components from Shafrir-2. V3C (U-Darter) was redesigned across the board and comparable to Magic 2/AIM9L including dual moving canards; both V3B and V3C tied to HMDs on our F1/M3/Cheetah; at the time, neither French or Americans had put HMD systems.
> 
> My first ever integration work of HMD was on V3C (U-Darter) on Cheetah.
> Hope this clarifies it.



Yes South African were first to go with hmd or sight and I think Sweden were first with operational data link on darkens or something 

They use to have a cover which use to hide the data link panel when aircraft was on ground

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## messiach

No.


sparten said:


> Does this mean PAF has gone all in on AZM? They were not before.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> No.


I think it means the PAF isn't going to get an off-the-shelf fighter from abroad; it's continued procurement and improvements of JF-17s, and later, procurement of FGFA via Project Azm. The only thing to 'foil' this plot is the procurement of additional F-16s, but that depends on many 'ifs' and 'buts.'

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## GriffinsRule

This might deserve a new thread of its own, but since we are discussing the South African missile pedigree, I figured it might be good to share the latest article about Denel Dynamics missiles from the Nov AFM issue. It will also make clear the differences between the missiles etc, and yes the U-Darter has been retired from mid-2000s or earlier looks like. Only including the AAM and Raptor portions of the article. A-Darter seems like a very good replacement of both AIM-9L on the F-16s and PL-5 on the JF-17

----
South Africa's air-launched advances by Guy Martin

For a small developing country, South Africa has long punched above its weight when it comes to guided weapons. In the 1980s and early 1990s, it even flirted with intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), but post-democracy it focused on anti-tank guided missiles, surface-to-air missiles and guided bombs, among others.

South Africa’s development of air-launched weapons stretches back more than half a century. In 1969, what would become Kentron (and subsequently Denel Dynamics) began development of the V3A Kukri heat-seeking missile, which entered service in small numbers on the South African Air Force’s (SAAF’s) Mirage IIIs and F1s in the 1970s. It was innovative in that the seeker head was linked to a helmet mounted sight, which used LEDs and lasers. Such technology later found its way to the Saab Gripen and Eurofighter Typhoon.

The V3A evolved into the improved V3B, which entered SAAF service at the end of the 1970s, before being replaced from 1986 by the larger and further refined V3C Darter, and later the U-Darter. For beyond-visual range (BVR) engagements, Kentron (with assistance from Israel) developed the radar guided V4 or R-Darter, which was fitted to Atlas Cheetah C fighters between 1995 and 2008. It also featured the ability to be cued by helmet-mounted sight and had a lock-on after launch (LOAL) capability.

The R-Darter was retired with the Cheetah fleet and by the time the Gripen had entered service in 2008, new missiles were needed. The Diehl Defence IRIS-T short-range weapon was ordered as a stopgap while Denel Dynamics developed the V3E Agile Darter (A-Darter), a 12-mile (20km) range heat-seeking missile. To reduce development costs, South Africa partnered with Brazil on the R3.6bn (£206m) project, with a substantial portion funded by the South American country. Brazil’s Avibras company helped develop the rocket motor, Opto Eletrônica assisted with the seeker head and Mectron (now part of Odebrecht Defense and Technology) brought experience as the manufacturer of all Brazil’s missiles. Development had begun under Project Assegai in 1995, but funding cuts put development on hold until Brazil joined the programme in 2006.

The A-Darter is typical of modern fifth generation short-range air-to-air missiles (AAMs), with a length of 9ft 9in (2.98m) and weight of 205lb (93kg). It is steered by thrust vector controls, allowing it to manoeuvre at more than 85g (compared with the 50 of the V3C, for example). The use of smokeless propellant makes it harder to detect on launch and during flight. Maximum speed is around Mach 3.

Target designation can be either through the launch aircraft’s radar, the missile’s seeker head or by helmet-mounted sight (the SAAF uses the Cobra helmet-mounted display on its Gripens). A high look angle means it can engage targets next to or even behind the launch aircraft (track rate is 120° and look angle/target recognition 180°). LOAL (with an inertial measurement unit providing midcourse guidance) allows the missile to engage targets beyond infrared detection range. A two-colour seeker (short and medium-range infrared) and decoy rejection software means the missile is highly resistant to jamming.

Development of the A-Darter has been somewhat protracted, with test firings only starting in 2010 and product baseline established in 2018, paving the way for industrialisation and manufacturing (several years late).

The SAAF placed a R939m (£53m) production contract with Denel for the missile in March 2015, with the first four trainer missiles scheduled for delivery in the 2018-19 financial year and the final batch of operational missiles scheduled for delivery in the 2021 calendar year.

The A-Darter was due to be integrated onto both the SAAF’s Hawk and Gripen platforms, but it appears funding constraints will mean the weapon will only be carried by the SAAF’s 26 Gripen C/D jets. In Brazil, the A-Darter is expected to equip the air force’s 36 new Gripen E/F fighters, with production of Brazilian missiles due to take place at a new facility in São José dos Campos. Three years ago, Denel was awarded a R358m (£20.5m) contract to integrate the missile onto Brazil’s Gripens – the country’s F-5M

The A-Darter is a viable alternative to Western and Eastern competitors in the infrared guided and A-1M aircraft use other missiles. short-range AAM (SRAAM) market. Its main competitors include the well established AIM- 9X, Python 5, IRIS-T, AA-11 (R-73 Archer), and ASRAAM. Similar competitors include the MICA (which was the first Western AAM to use thrust vectoring), and China’s PL-10E. While the SRAAM market is relatively crowded, the A-Darter is a good International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR)-free alternative that can easily be integrated onto Gripen and Hawk platforms, although integration with other platforms is relatively straightforward as the missile uses common LAU-7 type launchers that are compatible with the Sidewinder and Mil Std 1553 databus systems.

Now that production is under way, the A-Darter is available for export, with initial estimates suggesting 100-200 missiles could be exported, which would more than pay for development costs. Saab already markets the A-Darter as a standard option on the Gripen C/D and Gripen E/F. Brazil and South Africa will share export sales, with some international interest being expressed. In the meantime, Denel Dynamics is working on upgrades and refinements to the missile.

Marlin
The SAAF does not have a beyond-visual range (BVR) missile at present, but this may change with the development of the 62-mile (100km) range Marlin radar-guided missile, being pursued by Denel Dynamics under an Armscor technology demonstrator contract.

This is proceeding well, with a successful test launch engaging a manoeuvring target. Marlin uses a dual-pulse rocket and has an estimated top speed of Mach 4. It’s envisaged that it will be developed into an all-weather surface-to-air missile, which could be used in the same naval role as Denel’s surface to- air Umkhonto (Spear). Denel Dynamics is talking to a foreign partner about development of the air-to-air Marlin, which will be used by the SAAF and the partner nation’s air force. The missile will then be marketed as an air defence product on fighter aircraft.

Raptor
Denel Dynamics’ predecessor Kentron built up extensive experience with guided weapons in the 1980s and began development of the MUlti-Purpose Stand-Off Weapon (MUPSOW) jet-powered cruise missile, Torgos long-range precision-guided munition, rocket-boosted Mk82 Guided Boosted Bomb and Boosted Anti-Radar Bomb. These projects never made it far, mainly due to funding cuts after 1990. However, its H-2 TV-guided glide bomb was far more successful. Developed in the 1980s, this 37-mile (60km) range weapon had a TV seeker that could lock onto a target, and the weapon could be handed over to another aircraft up to 125 miles (200km) away. The H-2 was then developed into the Raptor (used by the SAAF on its Mirage F1s and Buccaneers) and further improved Raptor II. The latter has been exported to Algeria, with 50 missiles delivered in 2008, and Pakistan (as the H-4 SOW).

The Raptor II has several guidance options, such as GNSS/INS for fire-and-forget attacks, or low-light TV or infrared (with the operator designating the precise point of impact via an auto-tracker), and the target can be changed in flight. The 2,645lb (1,200kg) weapon is fitted with a 1,323lb (600kg) penetration or fragmentation warhead and has a circular error probability of 10ft (3m). A rocket motor gives a range of more than 80 miles (130km). Denel Dynamics subsequently began work on the Raptor III with a range of 186 miles (300km), which was unveiled in September 2014. The Raptor II is no longer available, although Denel Dynamics still supports the weapon.

Denel Dynamics has long dominated South Africa’s guided weapons market, but a new entrant is Milkor, which has moved from manufacturing grenade launchers to UAVs, armoured vehicles, patrol boats and now guided weapons. The company is working on a 27lb (12kg) unpowered laser-guided bomb for its UAV range. Development should be completed by 2020, with moving target tests by the end of the year. Milkor’s largest UAV, the 40ft (12m) wingspan MA380, will be able to carry two of the weapons.

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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Yes South African were first to go with hmd or sight and I think Sweden were first with operational data link on darkens or something
> 
> They use to have a cover which use to hide the data link panel when aircraft was on ground


Yes, it was hms not hmd, my typo. two keys are next door.


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## denel

Old photo of H2 riding on F1AZ during Angola ops.

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## nomi007

denel said:


> Old photo of H2 riding on F1AZ during Angola ops.


clearest images thanks for sharing

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## mshan44



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## Talon

Cobras: The old jet squadron that challenged Indian air defence.

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## Taha Samad

Hodor said:


> Cobras: The old jet squadron that challenged Indian air defence.
> 
> View attachment 586084



Which Missile is that?


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## khanasifm

Taha Samad said:


> Which Missile is that?



Older tail aspect papa unless they have been upgraded to aim-9p v4

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## Inception-06

Hodor said:


> Cobras: The old jet squadron that challenged Indian air defence.
> 
> View attachment 586084

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## mshan44



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## Windjammer



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## mshan44



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## khanasifm

Not sure if it’s official or fan boy but no 8 now off anti ship to anti surface with stand off REK ? Perhaps pk84/83 ?? Like jf ?

Comparing with drop tank looks like pk-84

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## mingle

French ambassador to Pak release video massage today that his Govt is wait IK visit to Paris at Nov 11 and defence relations between Pak and France are very low time to boost them again.
What Pak should expect from France in defence??? Mirage 2000s??@Quwa, @fatman17 @airomerix @MastanKhan

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## Yasser76

mingle said:


> French ambassador to Pak release video massage today that his Govt is wait IK visit to Paris at Nov 11 and defence relations between Pak and France are very low time to boost them again.
> What Pak should expect from France in defence??? Mirage 2000s??@Quwa, @fatman17 @airomerix @MastanKhan




We will not ask anything from France, that I can assure you. Pak integrated new weapons on Mirages itself, and has capability same as Dassault when it comes to repairing or overhauling these birds.

Even Agosta 90B upgrade was not given to the original French company but to Turks (who had never done such an upgrade before). 

France has sold it's very cutting edge tech to India in form of Rafale, Scorpene, MICA etc. Only purchase we made was AS350 Fennecs as no other light helicopter exists that can cope with high altitudes like this one. 

France-Pak defence relationship is over and time is right too. Soon China and Turkey combined can offer us everything French can and in a few years better products. 

Turkey developing new generation of submarines and we are getting S20 subs from China with AIP

Turkish FX and Chinese FC-31 will bypass Rafael

Turkish/Pak Jinnah class and Chinese Type 054A as good as any French frigates.


Only area France still has cutting edge is engines, EW and missiles. Eventually Turkey, China and Pak will bypass them, already happened in anti-ship missiles. French still strong in surface to air and air to air, but new PL-15 maybe a game changer here.

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## Windjammer



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## mingle

Yasser76 said:


> We will not ask anything from France, that I can assure you. Pak integrated new weapons on Mirages itself, and has capability same as Dassault when it comes to repairing or overhauling these birds.
> 
> Even Agosta 90B upgrade was not given to the original French company but to Turks (who had never done such an upgrade before).
> 
> France has sold it's very cutting edge tech to India in form of Rafale, Scorpene, MICA etc. Only purchase we made was AS350 Fennecs as no other light helicopter exists that can cope with high altitudes like this one.
> 
> France-Pak defence relationship is over and time is right too. Soon China and Turkey combined can offer us everything French can and in a few years better products.
> 
> Turkey developing new generation of submarines and we are getting S20 subs from China with AIP
> 
> Turkish FX and Chinese FC-31 will bypass Rafael
> 
> Turkish/Pak Jinnah class and Chinese Type 054A as good as any French frigates.
> 
> 
> Only area France still has cutting edge is engines, EW and missiles. Eventually Turkey, China and Pak will bypass them, already happened in anti-ship missiles. French still strong in surface to air and air to air, but new PL-15 maybe a game changer here.


Million $$ question why he is visiting there?? It's two days visit we not gonna buy theior cheese or he gonna eat theior original French toast plus khan won't visit without purpose. My two cents PIA buying new planes but why French ambassador stressing for defence boosts let's see.

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## Shah_Deu

mingle said:


> French ambassador to Pak release video massage today that his Govt is wait IK visit to Paris at Nov 11 and defence relations between Pak and France are very low time to boost them again.
> What Pak should expect from France in defence??? Mirage 2000s??@Quwa, @fatman17 @airomerix @MastanKhan


Meteors???

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## mingle

Shah_Deu said:


> Meteors???


French subsystems probably

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mingle said:


> Million $$ question why he is visiting there?? It's two days visit we not gonna buy theior cheese or he gonna eat theior original French toast plus khan won't visit without purpose. My two cents PIA buying new planes but why French ambassador stressing for defence boosts let's see.


Old wine in a new bottle!!! Entice India to buy more!! The French are proud of themselves for their cleverness.....

By the by, the French also are good at "dealings" when the "price is right"!!! And, Pak is the legacy of a very wealthy empire, and they're unlike the Indians who worship the "physical" money...

Pak _Bahane_, Rafael/Ambani _Shahane_....

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## Ali_Baba

This statement by the French Amabassador is just to get India to spend more.. nothing else.

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## HRK

can anybody quote the statement and the source of the statement of French Ambassador ....?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thales TopOwl-F HMD/S and MBDA Meteor BVRAAM. That's all I think we could ask for from the French. Thales is one of the few with an available HMD/S product. And France is one of the consortium members of the Meteor.

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## The Eagle

I like Italian channel of our interest that surely made them curious as well as soft, if there is bit of juice negating Indian market influence. Beside HMD/S etc for JFT, I see Meteor all the way. An invitation to PM and a visit there after shouldn't be settling for less. Let's the doctrine be utilized.

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## mingle

HRK said:


> can anybody quote the statement and the source of the statement of French Ambassador ....?


Go sissat.pk I read there his video massage looks like khan spending some money there.

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## HRK

mingle said:


> Go sissat.pk I read there his video massage looks like khan spending some money there.


plz post the link of video .... I m not the member of siassat.pk


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## mingle

HRK said:


> plz post the link of video .... I m not the member of siassat.pk


I read on twitter

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## The Eagle

HRK said:


> plz post the link of video .... I m not the member of siassat.pk



Prime Minister Imran Khan is already invited to attend world peace forum in France on 11th November, 2019. Furthermore, I see some unreliable sources relying on Urdu print media paper that Dr. Marc Barety, says that France is waiting for PM IK visit and both counties can bolster ties in many areas especially Defence cooperation.

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## Dreamer.

Yasser76 said:


> We will not ask anything from France, that I can assure you. Pak integrated new weapons on Mirages itself, and has capability same as Dassault when it comes to repairing or overhauling these birds.
> 
> Even Agosta 90B upgrade was not given to the original French company but to Turks (who had never done such an upgrade before).
> 
> France has sold it's very cutting edge tech to India in form of Rafale, Scorpene, MICA etc. Only purchase we made was AS350 Fennecs as no other light helicopter exists that can cope with high altitudes like this one.
> 
> France-Pak defence relationship is over and time is right too. Soon China and Turkey combined can offer us everything French can and in a few years better products.
> 
> Turkey developing new generation of submarines and we are getting S20 subs from China with AIP
> 
> Turkish FX and Chinese FC-31 will bypass Rafael
> 
> Turkish/Pak Jinnah class and Chinese Type 054A as good as any French frigates.
> 
> 
> Only area France still has cutting edge is engines, EW and missiles. Eventually Turkey, China and Pak will bypass them, already happened in anti-ship missiles. French still strong in surface to air and air to air, but new PL-15 maybe a game changer here.


Just because france is a major defense supplier for India does not mean they can't deal with us aswell. There are many countries that sell defense items to both india and pakistan. That does not mean that indians will not try to create hurdles or there won't be any difficulties but all that is pretty much the case with nearly all other major suppliers of defence equipment. Ultimately I think there are definitely areas where the french can and will work with pakistan if there's money to be made. 

However IK's visit doesn't necessarily have to be about defense deals regardless of what the ambassador said. There are other political, diplomatic and trade reasons that are enough for the visit even if there is nothing at all on defense.

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## SABRE

mingle said:


> French subsystems probably



Most likely yes. Nothing major, just regular small stuff. 

Generally speaking, never read too much into ambassadorial statements, unless important antecedent activity has taken place in regard to the statement or until what ambassadors say start to materialize. Sometimes they say things that sound hyped but in reality mean nothing. They have to do their job after all.

But in regard past few statements, it seems we have been shrouded by emotionalism and Franco-phobia of a sort just because France sold Rafale & Scorpene to India. This is no reason to close doors on France, much as this is no reason for them to close doors on Pakistan, and they won't. Let's not forget they offered us _Merlin_ submarine before they offered Scorpene to India. We decided to go for German U-214. In the end, neither subs happened and we instead ended up with the Chinese subs. They also never said no to us for Mirage-2000s or even Rafales, and essentially they still haven't. It's just our inability to buy from them and thereby influencing their foreign policy in our favor. French defence industry being largely driven by capital and commercial interests would offer us advance military technologies whenever we are able muster up dollars. They give a hoot what others think or say. Let's not forget, their avionics and weapons systems could be handy for Project Azm. If Azm ends up capable of carrying only the Chinese avionics and weapons system then its not worth pursuing. Just buy J-31. Azm has to be what JF-17 was supposed to be, a platform capable of incorporating items by diverse suppliers, a mix of Chinese and Western avionics and weapons. Let's remain open to the idea of cooperating with France, just the same we are doing with Italy.

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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> French ambassador to Pak release video massage today that his Govt is wait IK visit to Paris at Nov 11 and defence relations between Pak and France are very low time to boost them again.
> What Pak should expect from France in defence??? Mirage 2000s??@Quwa, @fatman17 @airomerix @MastanKhan



??

Is this in news ?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

IMO IK is clarifying to the world that Pak is going through a comprehensive "regime change" in the line of "Deep Nation + Deep State = A strong Pak"!!! Both friends and foes need to appreciate that the era of Sherifs/Zardaris/Bhuttos etc. - the proxy assassin agents assigned to kill Pak from inside - is 100% over!!! They are as good as dead!!! None of them are "resurrecting" in the next 3 centuries!!! So, Pak is now open for new businesses.....​

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> ??
> 
> Is this in news ?


Yes it's is just asking what products Pak interested I believe if we realy buy European Jett EF is our bett rest as other friends saying probably subsystems

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## Tank131

Lets remember that Rafale was offered to PAF but the finances were not there. Beyond this they offer Marlin Subs which PN refused in favor. Of U214. They also offered RC-400 and MICA & for JF-17 but PAF chose to stick to chinese options. That being said, im not sure what Pakistan could get from france from a defensive perspective unless they actually go for Rafale. The TopOwl HMD/S with Meteor and MICA would be great but that would demand PAF go with the Grifo E-scan for JF-17, which seems unlikely at this point as the KLJ-7A and LKF601E seem to outrange it. Additionally the Chinese do not seem to be keen on others getting access to their codes to allow weapons integration.

I think that if Pakistan will buy anything it may be more airbuses for PIA.

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## HRK

Just for sake of record ....


Tank131 said:


> They also offered RC-400 and MICA & for JF-17 but PAF chose to stick to chinese options.


they refused to sell after initial negotiation, due to their interest in Indian MMRCA tender ....


Tank131 said:


> they offer Marlin Subs


PN was seeking a proven operational design at that time, while Marlin was on drawing board and never materialise as an operational system ....

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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> Yes it's is just asking what products Pak interested I believe if we realy buy European Jett EF is our bett rest as other friends saying probably subsystems



Egyptian mirages deal ?

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## GriffinsRule

HRK said:


> Just for sake of record ....
> 
> they refused to sell after initial negotiation, due to their interest in Indian MMRCA tender ....
> 
> PN was seeking a proven operational design at that time, while Marlin was on drawing board and never materialise as an operational system ....


Now that the Indian deal has been done, they could turn around and offer us upgrades for Block 3 without India being able to do anything about it. Not that they could have if we had hard cash to pay for Rafales for PAF as well.

Arms manufacturers are shrewd business people and both Pakistan and India have been historically large weapon client states for the French. Its only in the last decade where France has lost access to the Pakistani market for various reasons (India had neglible/no role in this imo). 

France is probably realizing they dont want to burn all the bridges with Pakistan as economic downturns are not forever and its hard to earn back a client state as big as Pakistan if you are out of there completely. On top of that, we have other EU member states like UK, Spain, and especially Italy increasing their military cooperation with Pakistan, and can essentially replace France as a supplier for our military. 

Then there are other commercial incentives too and the Boeing vs Airbus etc.

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## HRK

GriffinsRule said:


> Now that the Indian deal has been done, they could turn around and offer us upgrades for Block 3 without India being able to do anything about it. Not that they could have if we had hard cash to pay for Rafales for PAF as well.


IMHO It seems very difficult that PAF would like to place their bet with French defence Industry for any major system without alternative from any other country for JF-17 blk-III, so we can assume that any of the French product for JF-17 blk-III would have to compete with offering product of other countries as the same happened in recent past when PAF chose Turkish targeting pod against French pod, but as mention earlier by Bilal Khan (Quwa) TopOwl-F HMDS and Meteor BVR are interesting products

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## GriffinsRule

HRK said:


> IMHO It seems very difficult that PAF would like to place their bet with French defence Industry for any major system without alternative from any other country for JF-17 blk-III, so we can assume that any of the French product for JF-17 blk-III would have to compete with offering product of other countries as the same happened in recent past when PAF chose Turkish targeting pod against French pod, but as mention earlier by Bilal Khan (Quwa) TopOwl-F HMDS and Meteor BVR are interesting products



Yes, and that is the right approach to take as well. Do business with suppliers on the basis of price, quality and returns for the country.

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## mingle

We should produce at least two to three Sqdns of JF-17 blk 3 with European Avionics either French meteor with Italian radar would be great addition along F16s

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## Basel

HRK said:


> IMHO It seems very difficult that PAF would like to place their bet with French defence Industry for any major system without alternative from any other country for JF-17 blk-III, so we can assume that any of the French product for JF-17 blk-III would have to compete with offering product of other countries as the same happened in recent past when PAF chose Turkish targeting pod against French pod, but as mention earlier by Bilal Khan (Quwa) TopOwl-F HMDS and Meteor BVR are interesting products



For meteor a western AESA will be needed, so its not easy for French to sale it to Pakistan as Grifo-E is not as good as other options are available, only Raven class AESA from west should be accepted with full freedom to integrate any weapon system.



GriffinsRule said:


> Now that the Indian deal has been done, they could turn around and offer us upgrades for Block 3 without India being able to do anything about it. Not that they could have if we had hard cash to pay for Rafales for PAF as well.
> 
> Arms manufacturers are shrewd business people and both Pakistan and India have been historically large weapon client states for the French. Its only in the last decade where France has lost access to the Pakistani market for various reasons (India had neglible/no role in this imo).
> 
> France is probably realizing they dont want to burn all the bridges with Pakistan as economic downturns are not forever and its hard to earn back a client state as big as Pakistan if you are out of there completely. On top of that, we have other EU member states like UK, Spain, and especially Italy increasing their military cooperation with Pakistan, and can essentially replace France as a supplier for our military.
> 
> Then there are other commercial incentives too and the Boeing vs Airbus etc.



They may want to sell systems in which India is not interested like their AShM, SAM etc.

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## HRK

Basel said:


> For meteor a western AESA will be needed,


As far as I known Meteor is MIL-STD-1760 compatible BVR missile so it can be made operational with any Radar compatible with MIL-STD-1760 ..... not just Western Radar .... for example we know KLJ-7 V2 PD radar of JF-17 is 1760 compatible and it is because of this reason PAF explicitly mention many times that we can integrate any weapon from open market

So this might be the reason Pakistan is working on indigenous AESA radar with assistance from a friendly country ....having said all of this I would like to mention that I don't think Meteor would be on offer or any significant progress on Defence would be made during PM Imran proposed visit to France

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## Basel

HRK said:


> As far as I known Meteor is MIL-STD-1760 compatible BVR missile so it can be made operational with any Radar compatible with MIL-STD-1760 ..... not just Western Radar .... for example we know KLJ-7 V2 PD radar of JF-17 is 1760 compatible and it is because of this reason PAF explicitly mention many times that we can integrate any weapon from open market
> 
> So this might be the reason Pakistan is working on indigenous AESA radar with assistance from a friendly country ....having said all of this I would like to mention that I don't think Meteor would be on offer or any significant progress on Defence would be made during PM Imran purpose visit to France



Why French will sale it to Pakistan for mating it with Chinese radar?? As China is main competitor of west.

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## Haris Ali2140

HRK said:


> As far as I known Meteor is MIL-STD-1760 compatible BVR missile so it can be made operational with any Radar compatible with MIL-STD-1760 ..... not just Western Radar .... for example we know KLJ-7 V2 PD radar of JF-17 is 1760 compatible and it is because of this reason PAF explicitly mention many times that we can integrate any weapon from open market
> 
> So this might be the reason Pakistan is working on indigenous AESA radar with assistance from a friendly country ....having said all of this I would like to mention that I don't think Meteor would be on offer or any significant progress on Defence would be made during PM Imran purpose visit to France


When is this visit going to take place???


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## PakFactor

HRK said:


> As far as I known Meteor is MIL-STD-1760 compatible BVR missile so it can be made operational with any Radar compatible with MIL-STD-1760 ..... not just Western Radar .... for example we know KLJ-7 V2 PD radar of JF-17 is 1760 compatible and it is because of this reason PAF explicitly mention many times that we can integrate any weapon from open market
> 
> So this might be the reason Pakistan is working on indigenous AESA radar with assistance from a friendly country ....having said all of this I would like to mention that I don't think Meteor would be on offer or any significant progress on Defence would be made during PM Imran purpose visit to France



Question where is this report coming from Pakistan working on AESA I doubt we have the know how or infrastructure and/or fabrication facilities to do something of that sort.


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## Umar Nazir

Haris Ali2140 said:


> When is this visit going to take place???


12 Nov

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## HRK

PakFactor said:


> Question where is this report coming from Pakistan working on AESA I doubt we have the know how or infrastructure and/or fabrication facilities to do something of that sort.


one of the source of this leak is @messiach who is a well respected member of the forum ...... secondly plz try to search former Air Cheif Sohail Aman last 2 or 3 speeches during his last days in which he categorically said that we will build AESA radar in Pakistan though in that speech he did not clarify that it would be a completely indigenous AESA radar

My understanding _(which have higher chances of going wrong)_ is that initially we might import TR modules from friendly country but would try to establish software codes with in-house resources ....


Basel said:


> Why French will sale it to Pakistan for mating it with Chinese radar?? As China is main competitor of west.


I never said that it is on offer for PAF, plz once again read the last few lines of my post which you have quoted .....

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## Haris Ali2140

PakFactor said:


> Question where is this report coming from Pakistan working on AESA I doubt we have the know how or infrastructure and/or fabrication facilities to do something of that sort.


IMO the main reason in current situation to get your own AESA is to get complete ownership of the radar. This will remove a major fear of west which is that their tech will go to Chinese. 

It can be that we paid the money to manufacture a custom AESA according to our specs on which we can integrate both western and Chinese weapons.

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## PakFactor

Haris Ali2140 said:


> IMO the main reason in current situation to get your own AESA is to get complete ownership of the radar. This will remove a major fear of west which is that their tech will go to Chinese.
> 
> It can be that we paid the money to manufacture a custom AESA according to our specs on which we can integrate both western and Chinese weapons.



Interesting I wish more details of this comes out - if this is true we can expand our manufacturing base and lead to sub system development.



HRK said:


> one of the source of this leak is @messiach who is a well respected member of the forum ...... secondly plz try to search former Air Cheif Sohail Aman last 2 or 3 speeches during his last days in which he categorically said that we will build AESA radar in Pakistan though in that speech he did not clarify that it would be a completely indigenous AESA radar
> 
> My understanding _(which have higher chances of going wrong)_ is that initially we might import TR modules from friendly country but would try to establish software codes with in-house resources ....
> 
> I never said that it is on offer for PAF, plz once again read the last few lines of my post which you have quoted .....



I will take a look at those videos and contact the respected PDF member as well. This seems like an interesting development overall.


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## Bilal Khan 777

I suspect that this aircraft will now goto 2030 in PAF service.

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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I suspect that this aircraft will now goto 2030 in PAF service.



It's capabilities and role with PAF aside, is it safe to assume that our replacement is delayed to have perfect and more capable than Mirage platform? Just curious.

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## Ali_Baba

People,

The Meteor missile is *NOT* French !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Meteor missile is *BRITISH*!!!! The core IP and design is BAe.... The manufacturer is MBDA... and MDBA is owned by Airbus(37.5%), BAe(37.5%) and Leonardo(25%)..

Airbus is a German, French and Spanish company....... The French are a minority stake holder(though, via Airbus they hold a veto ).....

The MAJORITY shareholder is the UK !!!!!!!!!!!!

Meteor Manufacturer = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA

Airbus ownership is = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus

*PLEASE STOP CALLING IT FRENCH, IT IS NOT FRENCH... IT IS BRITISH !!!!*

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## Bilal Khan 777

The Eagle said:


> It's capabilities and role with PAF aside, is it safe to assume that our replacement is delayed to have perfect and more capable than Mirage platform? Just curious.



I flew the Mirage. It is hard to replace. The issue maybe number disparity, and that we have the ability and capability to keep these birds flying.

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## ziaulislam

Even with 76+ 180thunders the number is 260
PAF will still be short of atleast 140 fighters

Assuming thunders go to 250 that would still mean 80 short of 400

So mirages will keep flying may be even till 2035 ..

F7 soon and PG will be retired by 2025-2030..

Now this can change if f16s door open..but wont happen


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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I suspect that this aircraft will now goto 2030 in PAF service.


If we are looking to keep this aircraft till 2030 then is it not worth upgrading it? The Atlas Cheetah variant is an example which might give us a plane possibly with 7 hardpoints a decent PD Radar and the RD93 engine. For less than 10 million a pop we can have a fairly decent plane.
The other factor is that does PAF consider this plane ideal in its current shape with its current role.
These are questions to which we are looking towards you for an answer.
A

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## messiach

Correct.



HRK said:


> one of the source of this leak is @messiach

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> If we are looking to keep this aircraft till 2030 then is it not worth upgrading it? The Atlas Cheetah variant is an example which might give us a plane possibly with 7 hardpoints a decent PD Radar and the RD93 engine. For less than 10 million a pop we can have a fairly decent plane.
> The other factor is that does PAF consider this plane ideal in its current shape with its current role.
> These are questions to which we are looking towards you for an answer.
> A


PAF is gona use it for startegic strike with raad, and H4s and ground attack roles

Seems its satisfied with current performance and is out of money for any upgrades

I think PAF wants to add more f16s to help mirage replacement but cant get them

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## khanasifm

All I know is the mirages will stay for another decade or so 
If the f-7 are retired in next 3-5 years than mirages have another 5-7 years min

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> ??
> 
> Is this in news ?


Seeing for the 1st time. Don't expect too much from the French except for a few morsals like helos.


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## Umar Nazir

ziaulislam said:


> Even with 76+ 180thunders the number is 260
> PAF will still be short of atleast 140 fighters
> 
> Assuming thunders go to 250 that would still mean 80 short of 400
> 
> So mirages will keep flying may be even till 2035 ..
> 
> F7 soon and PG will be retired by 2025-2030..
> 
> Now this can change if f16s door open..but wont happen


chines still flying F7 in large numbers (388), why we are in a hurry to replace them ??????


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## The Accountant

Umar Nazir said:


> chines still flying F7 in large numbers (388), why we are in hurry in replace them ??????


China is replacing them fast

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## Yasser76

The Accountant said:


> China is replacing them fast




It is not a case that F-7 is too old (some of these birds were bought in early 90s), point is that they represent very limited capability, even with Grifo radar..

Very short range, no BVR and EW suite and very light combat load. PAF has to man, equip and train several F-7 units and get them up to high standard of training. May as well reduce these units and quickly replace with JF-17

Mirages have decent range and load so will probably continue for strike missions as per Feb 27th

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## Umar Nazir

Yasser76 said:


> It is not a case that F-7 is too old (some of these birds were bought in early 90s), point is that they represent very limited capability, even with Grifo radar..
> 
> Very short range, no BVR and EW suite and very light combat load. PAF has to man, equip and train several F-7 units and get them up to high standard of training. May as well reduce these units and quickly replace with JF-17
> 
> Mirages have decent range and load so will probably continue for strike missions as per Feb 27th


exactly most of F7 were purchased in 90s which mean their air frame is quite new. Should be used as trainer

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## Yasser76

Umar Nazir said:


> exactly most of F7 were purchased in 90s which mean their air frame is quite new. Should be used as trainer



I think this is PAF plan, use these for advanced training/DACT etc. In which case we only need 2 Sqds max

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## Pakistani Fighter

Yasser76 said:


> I think this is PAF plan, use these for advanced training/DACT etc. In which case we only need 2 Sqds max


Why were were purchasing F7s when thier were other good fighters


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## araz

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Why were were purchasing F7s when thier were other good fighters


This was the bleek 90s when nothing was available to us. We tried to get the M2Ks but that did not work out so we had very little options available.
A



Umar Nazir said:


> exactly most of F7 were purchased in 90s which mean their air frame is quite new. Should be used as trainer


The air frames do not have any life left in them. Secondly the plane itself is very short legged and maintenance hungry, so I JFT would be able to 2 what 2-3 F7ps would have done.We are therefore better off with retiring these planes and filling the ranks up with JFTs.
A

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## ziaulislam

Umar Nazir said:


> chines still flying F7 in large numbers (388), why we are in a hurry to replace them ??????


China numbers are all speculation ..


Umar Nazir said:


> exactly most of F7 were purchased in 90s which mean their air frame is quite new. Should be used as trainer


Wrong
F7 airframe was rated for 2000hrs(15-20 yrs)
So by that standard they are old.
Unless they are rebuilt 
F16 has 8000hrs and jf17 4000hrs

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## khanasifm

Umar Nazir said:


> exactly most of F7 were purchased in 90s which mean their air frame is quite new. Should be used as trainer




With 2400-2600 hours total life they are gone,paf is keeping them alive by self declared life enhancement package which is not supported by OEM per paf history but max ~200 hours more per airframe app with 60-80 airframe you get 16k hours so perhaps another 3-x years ??

Mirages fuselage has 8000 hours life and wings ~2400 after which paf is opening them and replacing all critical structure so rebuilding them per last Afm article

No Comparison

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## PakFactor

khanasifm said:


> With 2400-2600 hours total life they are gone,paf is keeping them alive by self declared life enhancement package which is not supported by OEM per paf history but max ~200 hours more per airframe app with 60-80 airframe you get 16k hours so perhaps another 3-x years ??
> 
> Mirages fuselage has 8000 hours life and wings ~2400 after which paf is opening them and replacing all critical structure so rebuilding them per last Afm article
> 
> No Comparison



All credit due to our engineers at PAF with limits resources to keep our birds flying shows potential and resolve.

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## Yasser76

PakFactor said:


> All credit due to our engineers at PAF with limits resources to keep our birds flying shows potential and resolve.



PAF done amazing job with Mirage 3/5, and safety record for such a large fleet of old planes speaks for itself. Maybe it is time to take out old ROSE avionics and upgrade these birds again with AESA and new EW suite?

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## princefaisal

Yasser76 said:


> PAF done amazing job with Mirage 3/5, and safety record for such a large fleet of old planes speaks for itself. Maybe it is time to take out old ROSE avionics and upgrade these birds again with AESA and new EW suite?


Leonardo Aesa radar and EW suite will be better for ROSE Mirages.

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## aliyusuf

princefaisal said:


> Leonardo Aesa radar and EW suite will be better for ROSE Mirages.


Also much costlier than the Chinese alternatives. I would think that local development of the JF-17 Block-III AESA (with Chinese assistance) is a step that could open a lot of opportunities for us.

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## untitled

araz said:


> The Atlas Cheetah variant is an example which might give us a plane possibly with 7 hardpoints a decent PD Radar and the RD93 engine.


Won't it be more feasible if we in any future JF17 version go the way of the F16XL? The delta-wings should give more range and hardpoints to this "JF17NG" and also give near Mirage 3/5 performance.

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## araz

member.exe said:


> Won't it be more feasible if we in any future JF17 version go the way of the F16XL? The delta-wings should give more range and hardpoints to this "JF17NG" and also give near Mirage 3 the performance.


A wing change on the JFT would tentamount to 3-4 years of research and testing and 3 years to build. It would also send a wrong message to our potential buyers and you do not want to confuse the small number of buyers that you have wriggled away from thew big two. Plus at 16 planes a year and a replacement need exceeding 150 fighters the time lag would be too much. Lastly it would divert resources and man power away from Project Azm which is the last thing we want to do.
The research for Atlas Cheetah is done and if Denel is to be believed the Jigs are already in place with the SA team. As such time nad money input would be halved. We can have commonality of avionics in the platform and other savings due to commmonality. However, the crunch question is whether the effort is worth the gain from Time money and capabilities it brings forward. This was why IAsked the question from @Bilal Khan 777 but he has probabaly not seen the post.
A

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## Umar Nazir

time to design a Bomber version of JF-17 which can replace Mirage fighter


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## untitled

araz said:


> A wing change on the JFT would tentamount to 3-4 years of research and testing and 3 years to build


If past experience is any indicator then this is roughly the time it will take for all the deliveries of the Block III for PAF and foreign orders (if any) to complete. If this idea (delta-wing JF-17) is to proceed and is indeed feasible then work on it must start as soon as the Block III enters production unless PAF has already made up her mind that _Azm_ will be the sole replacement for the Mirage 3/5



araz said:


> It would also send a wrong message to our potential buyers and you do not want to confuse the small number of buyers that you have wriggled away from thew big two





araz said:


> Plus at 16 planes a year and a replacement need exceeding 150 fighters the time lag would be too much


The only problem I see for this for any potential customer is the increase in price. Otherwise I don't see any future non-PAF operator complaining about the extra range and payload. Infact this can actually work for us if aggressively market the Block III. We can say to any potential buyer of the Block III that this is the time to place an order since there are possibly significant changes coming in future JF-17 blocks that my increase the price and delivery times. And additionally we can always keep churning out Block IIIs until this design change is finalised.

Since the primary task of this version of JF17 will be to give Mirage 3/5 like performance with a newer airframe and as said by @Bilal Khan 777 we already have plans to operate the Mirages till 2030. Agree that we have extensive experience with the Mirage III/V but shouldn't we replace this aircraft with a jet that shares a common eco-system with our very own JF-17? After all was this not the original goal of the JF-17 project to replace all our non-F16 fighters and isn't the JF-17 supposed to out-serve any Mirage 3/5 we already have in service? Apart from the R&D and time, I see a lot of savings right here, since PAF will only be operating F-16s, JF-17 variants and the future _Azm_.



> The research for Atlas Cheetah is done and if Denel is to be believed the Jigs are already in place with the SA team. As such time nad money input would be halved. We can have commonality of avionics in the platform and other savings due to commmonality


If feasible I am all for it but the only downside I see in this is that rather than retiring them, we will be keeping this additional Mirage platform, which in an ideal world we should have retired long ago, soldiering on for the foreseeable future since we have decided to invest in this route

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> A wing change on the JFT would tentamount to 3-4 years of research and testing and 3 years to build. It would also send a wrong message to our potential buyers and you do not want to confuse the small number of buyers that you have wriggled away from thew big two. Plus at 16 planes a year and a replacement need exceeding 150 fighters the time lag would be too much. Lastly it would divert resources and man power away from Project Azm which is the last thing we want to do.
> The research for Atlas Cheetah is done and if Denel is to be believed the Jigs are already in place with the SA team. As such time nad money input would be halved. We can have commonality of avionics in the platform and other savings due to commmonality. However, the crunch question is whether the effort is worth the gain from Time money and capabilities it brings forward. This was why IAsked the question from @Bilal Khan 777 but he has probabaly not seen the post.
> A


Agreed. IMO, instead of trying to change fundamental aspects of the JF-17's design (like making it delta-wing), we should try adapting the air-to-ground weapons around the JF-17. So, look at a lighter weight and compact ALCMs, a JSOW-like solution, SDB-like solution, a 1,000 to 1,200-kg supersonic cruising missile, etc. This way, we can use the JF-17 as-is, but still employ it as a more than serviceable SOW asset.

If there's one change to the JF-17 I would like us to consider, it'd be adding CFTs so that we can free-up the pylons under the wing for munitions. Beyond that, look at rebuilding the PAF's Mirage III/5 fleet and, potentially, leveraging the Cheetah infrastructure to upgrade them.

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## CHI RULES

Any news about Mirrage Horus delivery?

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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## GriffinsRule

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 588810


Looks like its fresh out of MRF =)

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## hassan1



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## Path-Finder

*Sejeel guided bombs being produced for UAE*
Written by defenceWeb -
8th Nov 2019
1012



Al Tariq and Sejeel guided bombs.
Barij Dynamics, a partnership with Denel Dynamics, has completed development of the Orca/Sejeel guided bomb kit and received a contract for 4 000 of the weapons for the United Arab Emirates (UAE) Air Force.

Denel, in its 2018/19 annual report, stated that the final flight test on the Orca (Sejeel) weapon system was completed by the end of May 2018. “The performance of the weapons led to a contract placed by the UAE Air Force on our partner in the UAE (Barij Dynamics) for 4 000 weapons. During the development phases of the contract, the weapon system was industrialised and made ready for production.”

Barij Dynamics was formerly known as Tawazun Dynamics and is a 51:49% partnership between Barij/Emirates Defence Industry Company and Denel. Its first product was the Al Tariq (Umbani) guided bomb kit, ordered by the UAE in 2011.

Development of the Sejeel (P3) guided bomb kit began under a 2015 contract from the UAE, with development work done in South Africa and production in the United Arab Emirates. The bomb kit adds GNSS/INS and/or semi-active laser guidance to Mk 81 and Mk 82 bombs. It can be programmed with different attack profiles, and has off-axis and moving target attack capability. Range is more than 25 km, with a circular error probability (CEP) of less than 3 metres for the GNSS/INS/SAL version and less than 10 metres for the GNSS/INS version.

Barij Dynamics is focussed on precision guided munition development and production, and sees this as its core business. It recently expanded its range with a guidance kit for the 2 000 lb Mk 84 series bomb. This was launched in February at IDEX 2019 in Abu Dhabi. This strap-on kit features GNSS/INS and SAL guidance systems.

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/sejeel-guided-bombs-being-produced-for-uae/

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## hassan1



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## Imran Khan

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 588810


so its first flight of pakistani brand new mirage -5 in dessult France ?

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## nomi007

Any news regarding *egyptian* mirages delivery?

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## hassan1



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## denel

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 588904
> View attachment 588905
> View attachment 588906
> View attachment 588907
> View attachment 588908
> View attachment 588909
> View attachment 588910
> View attachment 588911
> View attachment 588912
> View attachment 588913
> View attachment 588914


All beauties ready and waiting to be transformed into CHeetah!.

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## Umar Nazir

denel said:


> All beauties ready and waiting to be transformed into CHeetah!.


Even Bangladesh (which dont faces any major threat) looking for 4+ generation fighter , But PAF still busy in spending resources and energy in 3rd generation Mirages

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## GriffinsRule

Umar Nazir said:


> Even Bangladesh (which dont faces any major threat) looking for 4+ generation fighter , But PAF still busy in spending resources and energy in 3rd generation Mirages


Pay your taxes and they will buy 4+ gen jets too

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## Bilal Khan 777

Mirages are here to stay. The decision makers understand all cost and benefit issues. Arguments here don't affect or change strategic decisions of a nation.

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## Umar Nazir

GriffinsRule said:


> Pay your taxes and they will buy 4+ gen jets too


we are paying taxes , probably one of the highest indirect taxes paid by common Pakistanis, but Politicians Bureaucrats and Generals all using these taxis for their personal benefits and luxurious life



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Mirages are here to stay. The decision makers understand all cost and benefit issues. Arguments here don't affect or change strategic decisions of a nation.


because 50 year old Mirage can carry Raad Cruise Missile, thats why we still spending on Mirages, as JF-17 cant fire Raad

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## aliyusuf

Umar Nazir said:


> probably one of the highest indirect taxes


That situation arises when the overwhelming majority of the people are not too cooperative in paying their income taxes. Whatever figure of percentage that constitutes is actually bolstered by the salaried class, who have no choice but to have their income: taxed at the source by their employers.

Around 1% of the self employed and the business owners pay their income taxes.

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## ziaulislam

Umar Nazir said:


> we are paying taxes , probably one of the highest indirect taxes paid by common Pakistanis, but Politicians Bureaucrats and Generals all using these taxis for their personal benefits and luxurious life
> 
> 
> because 50 year old Mirage can carry Raad Cruise Missile, thats why we still spending on Mirages, as JF-17 cant fire Raad


Rather you dont have 150 ground attack aircraft replacement yet..its not about raad only...raad was built for mirage way back before thunder program..when mirages go a new weapon will be built for thunders (that is if its not built already)

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## Umar Nazir

aliyusuf said:


> That situation arises when the overwhelming majority of the people are not too cooperative in paying their income taxes. Whatever figure of percentage that constitutes is actually bolstered by the salaried class, who have no choice but to have their income: taxed at the source by their employers.
> 
> Around 1% of the self employed and the business owners pay their income taxes.


Bhotto Nationalize policy responsible for all that mess. Direct taxes can only increase if industry flourish. decade passed, but we still feel hesitation for the privatization of steel mill and PIA

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## Path-Finder

Umar Nazir said:


> because 50 year old Mirage can carry Raad Cruise Missile, thats why we still spending on Mirages, as JF-17 cant fire Raad


Mirage is here to stay. The end.



ziaulislam said:


> Rather you dont have 150 ground attack aircraft replacement yet..its not about raad only...raad was built for mirage way back before thunder program..when mirages go a new weapon will be built for thunders (that is if its not built already)


There is nothing better than mirage when it comes to ground strike and carrying precision munition. Unfortunately some people dont understand this little fact.

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## ziaulislam

Path-Finder said:


> Mirage is here to stay. The end.
> 
> 
> There is nothing better than mirage when it comes to ground strike and carrying precision munition. Unfortunately some people dont understand this little fact.


Jf17 might be as good but we dont have the numbers yet...jf17 key role in upcoming conflict will be to escort mirages

Once the thunder hit 250 mark and f16 hit the 100 mark than we can talk about retiring mirages



Umar Nazir said:


> Bhotto Nationalize policy responsible for all that mess. Direct taxes can only increase if industry flourish. decade passed, but we still feel hesitation for the privatization of steel mill and PIA


Its national thinking policy too
Pakistan has highest corporate tax in the world..regional average is 20%, in india its 15&20%...
In pakistan its between 30&40% this too has dropped recently..

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## araz

Umar Nazir said:


> we are paying taxes , probably one of the highest indirect taxes paid by common Pakistanis, but Politicians Bureaucrats and Generals all using these taxis for their personal benefits and luxurious life
> 
> 
> because 50 year old Mirage can carry Raad Cruise Missile, thats why we still spending on Mirages, as JF-17 cant fire Raad


Come to UK Sunny Jim. I pay 40% tax plus 13.5% national insurance. That is before my salary comes into my hand. Then there is the additional 20%VAT which we pay everytime we buy anything.So compared to me you are in a Tax Heaven.
A

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## Basel

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Mirages are here to stay. The decision makers understand all cost and benefit issues. Arguments here don't affect or change strategic decisions of a nation.



Why M2Ks were not bought during 90s?? That decision is still haunting Pakistan and PAF, if M2Ks had been inducted during 90s then PAF would have been able to retire old M-3/5s quickly as JFT came available in numbers.


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## Path-Finder

ziaulislam said:


> Jf17 might be as good but we dont have the numbers yet...jf17 key role in upcoming conflict will be to escort mirages
> 
> Once the thunder hit 250 mark and f16 hit the 100 mark than we can talk about retiring mirages


The mirage has a complete rebuilding infrastructure in tandem with the expertise obtained from years of tinkering with it. Plus more mirage are being sourced. That is all because this aircraft can deliver the goods and keep pace with any operational conditions. We had doubts and indians used to make mockery of our mirages but they have the certain something about them especially after February.



araz said:


> Come to UK Sunny Jim. I pay 40% tax plus 13.5% national insurance. That is before my salary comes into my hand. Then there is the additional 20%VAT which we pay everytime we buy anything.So compared to me you are in a Tax Heaven.
> A


You forgot to add that if you dont pay her majesty tax and revenue services then its straight to jail. No chacha, taya or phuppa etc cant get you off the hook.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Basel said:


> Why M2Ks were not bought during 90s?? That decision is still haunting Pakistan and PAF, if M2Ks had been inducted during 90s then PAF would have been able to retire old M-3/5s quickly as JFT came available in numbers.



Politics.

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## araz

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Politics.


Could you elaborate? Are you talking about the 10 million per plane Mr 10% wanted adding on?
A

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## denel

Umar Nazir said:


> Even Bangladesh (which dont faces any major threat) looking for 4+ generation fighter , But PAF still busy in spending resources and energy in 3rd generation Mirages


correct .... these airframes are beyond their limits; we have already spoken many times over about need to at least get zero airframes and rebuild.



Path-Finder said:


> The mirage has a complete rebuilding infrastructure in tandem with the expertise obtained from years of tinkering with it. Plus more mirage are being sourced. That is all because this aircraft can deliver the goods and keep pace with any operational conditions. We had doubts and indians used to make mockery of our mirages but they have the certain something about them especially after February.
> 
> 
> You forgot to add that if you dont pay her majesty tax and revenue services then its straight to jail. No chacha, taya or phuppa etc cant get you off the hook.


Friend as we discussed before; rebuilding is only so much; these airframes are barely making it; new airframes must be brought it vs trying to cobble up from parts. A firm decision needs to be made and it seems it has - M3/5 are staying and if they are what is the game plan to make their airframes from zero hours; already they have gotten new wings from altas so why not airframes?

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## GriffinsRule

denel said:


> correct .... these airframes are beyond their limits; we have already spoken many times over about need to at least get zero airframes and rebuild.
> 
> 
> Friend as we discussed before; rebuilding is only so much; these airframes are barely making it; new airframes must be brought it vs trying to cobble up from parts. A firm decision needs to be made and it seems it has - M3/5 are staying and if they are what is the game plan to make their airframes from zero hours; already they have gotten new wings from altas so why not airframes?


Because PAF does not want to fly 3rd gen aircraft past the next decade, and definitely not for next 40 years.

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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> Because PAF does not want to fly 3rd gen aircraft past the next decade, and definitely not for next 40 years.


Let us take a bet


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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Because PAF does not want to fly 3rd gen aircraft past the next decade, and definitely not for next 40 years.



Paf original plan was to replace all f-7, a-5 and mirages by 201x but not happening due to $$ constraint , there is difference what you wish and what you get 

Sabers were grounded in 80s when wing fell off and casualties but had no choice but to fly saber till 1980 last sqn in south

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## GriffinsRule

denel said:


> Let us take a bet


No thanks, I don't care for betting. But if you think PAF or PAC will invest in zero-timing Mirage airframes outside of the overhauls they already do, you are going to be mistaken. 
If this didn't happen 20 years ago, when it really wouldv'e made a difference, its not going to happen now.

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> No thanks, I don't care for betting. But if you think PAF or PAC will invest in zero-timing Mirage airframes outside of the overhauls they already do, you are going to be mistaken.
> If this didn't happen 20 years ago, when it really wouldv'e made a difference, its not going to happen now.


Nobody denies that. To do this for a system which will with appropriate care last till the 30s needs cash outlay but the thing we all contend is whether there is any benefit to doing this.
The way I have looked at it is PAF wants a high speed cheap and potentially expendable platform that is capable of delivering a SOW to its target and return to base without any major hassles. Now this can be done with the current platform has been demonstrated on 27/02. The question asked is whether there is any benefit to upgrading the platform and whether the survivability of the platform increases with the relevant upgrades. I think the RD series were not available in the 90s when PAF might have looked at the upgrade and now it considers the relevant upgrade cost prohibitive.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Politics.


...in France as much as Pakistan. According to WikiLeaks, at that time, the French Presidency was at odds for some reason with the French Ministry of Finance. The latter was refusing to green-light the credit or loan package for the M2K-5 deal. Of course, there was also stuff happening in Pakistan too.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ...in France as much as Pakistan. According to WikiLeaks, at that time, the French Presidency was at odds for some reason with the French Ministry of Finance. The latter was refusing to green-light the credit or loan package for the M2K-5 deal. Of course, there was also stuff happening in Pakistan too.


We made 3 or 4 attemps at acquiring the M2Ks. In the 80 we looked at the platform and suggested a more powerful radar. In the early 90s Benazir delayed the deal for 3 months while Mr 10%tried to pressure the PAF into a 10 million per plane hike. There was another request for 59 Armie de Aire M2K5 in early 2000s with sufficient spares for 20 years but the French quoted 60 million a pop and PAF backed out. The French made a counter offer of the rafale which PAF liked but again found cost prohibitive. And then the 16s came along!!
A

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## syed_yusuf

araz said:


> We made 3 or 4 attemps at acquiring the M2Ks. In the 80 we looked at the platform and suggested a more powerful radar. In the early 90s Benazir delayed the deal for 3 months while Mr 10%tried to pressure the PAF into a 10 million per plane hike. There was another request for 59 Armie de Aire M2K5 in early 2000s with sufficient spares for 20 years but the French quoted 60 million a pop and PAF backed out. The French made a counter offer of the rafale which PAF liked but again found cost prohibitive. And then the 16s came along!!
> A



if rafel was offered paf should have opted for it immediately in addition to falcons. big mistake


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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm



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## Adam_Khan

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 590856



22 has moved to Rafiqui now.

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## khanasifm

Adam_Khan said:


> 22 has moved to Rafiqui now.



Expecting a new jf sqn sometime this year or early next year , perhaps it will be based to take 22 place ??? 

12 jf produced 2018 and 2 dual seaters from China plus additional dual seater I think 8 in 2019 will go towards it plus beefing up each sqn strength with dual seaters ?? Guessing

Rest of capacity for 2018/19 must have gone towards foreign orders Myanmar [emoji1175] and [emoji1184] ie 16 total

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## Gryphon

Adam_Khan said:


> 22 has moved to Rafiqui now.



PAF needs more C-802AK capable JF-17s.

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## hassan1



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## Sine Nomine

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 591357


That's very rare pic and i have seen only one so clear.
Kudos Hassan.

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## HRK

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 591357


@Windjammer @Zarvan @Inception-06 .... and all others

its a treat for eyes ....

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## Inception-06

HRK said:


> @Windjammer @Zarvan @Inception-06 .... and all others
> 
> its a treat for eyes ....



Yes noticed the weapon under the belly but what's on the wings Mates?


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## HRK

Inception-06 said:


> Yes noticed the weapon under the belly but what's on the wings Mates?


on wings I believe its R-550 under centre line hard points its H-4 SOW

correction its dummy of either AIM-9M or L ...

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## Ali_Baba

That is the first picture of what the H2/SOW is! We have all been hearing about H2 for over a decade, if not a bit longer and finally she is unveiled(even though we all know she was used successfully in operation Swift Retort ).


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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> @Windjammer @Zarvan @Inception-06 .... and all others
> 
> its a treat for eyes ....


Yes indeed, earlier sir @Hodor shared something but it was like, ''you can have my bike, but i'm not giving it to you''.

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## Adam_Khan

HRK said:


> on wings I believe its R-550 under centre line hard points its H-4 SOW
> 
> correction its dummy of either AIM-9M or L ...



Dummy version of the AIM.9P, only the radar fitted versions of the Mirage carry the 9L's.

PS would love to see the guidance pod for this bomb,also is it a 1000Ib bomb or 2000Ib one?

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## HRK

HRK said:


> Dummy version of the AIM.9P, only the radar fitted versions of the Mirage carry the 9L's.
> 
> PS would love to see the guidance pod for this bomb,also is it a 1000Ib bomb or 2000Ib one?


I think 1000 lbs version ....






(enlarge and colour enhanced version of the pic previously shared by @hassan1 )

@denel your beauty and our beast .....

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Yes indeed, earlier sir @Hodor shared something but it was like, ''you can have my bike, but i'm not giving it to you''.



This is the reason I dont share any such content here otherwise I have pictures of H weapon in much better quality than this one.As soon as you post a photo here it ends up on every other page on Facebook.

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## ziaulislam

Hodor said:


> This is the reason I dont share any such content here otherwise I have pictures of H weapon in much better quality than this one.As soon as you post a photo here it ends up on every other page on Facebook.
> 
> View attachment 591390


Such is the internet.
You can try watermarking them

I always wondered whether mirages indeed got BVR A2A missles or was it just a rumour

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## Talon

ziaulislam said:


> Such is the internet.
> You can try watermarking them
> 
> I always wondered whether mirages indeed got BVR A2A missles or was it just a rumour


Its not about watermark,I dont own those photos.The reason is that I dont like all these pages bombarding same news everywhere with whatever caption they seem fit and each page claiming it to be Exclusive.Makes me angry.
And ofcourse the information security part is to be kept in mind as well.

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> This is the reason I dont share any such content here otherwise I have pictures of H weapon in much better quality than this one.As soon as you post a photo here it ends up on every other page on Facebook.
> 
> View attachment 591390


Sir this happens, i was the first person to acquire and post this very first image of PAF Block-52 with CFTs in Feb.2011....until then the rumour was that US is not supplying CFTs to the PAF. Once i posted the image here on PDF....it went viral with everyone under the Sun putting their own watermark on it and taking credit.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Sir this happens, i was the first person to acquire and post this very first image of PAF Block-52 with CFTs in Feb.2011....until then the rumour was that US is not supplying CFTs to the PAF. Once i posted the image here on PDF....it went viral with everyone under the Sun putting their own watermark on it and taking credit.


You have made my commitment of "Not to post such stuff here" more stronger.

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> You have made my commitment of "Not to post such stuff here" more stronger.


Hence the reason we have 'In Box'.

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> Sir this happens, i was the first person to acquire and post this very first image of PAF Block-52 with CFTs in Feb.2011....until then the rumour was that US is not supplying CFTs to the PAF. Once i posted the image here on PDF....it went viral with everyone under the Sun putting their own watermark on it and taking credit.


I think its the first time I have seen that type of a mouth guard for the F-16s =)

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> Sir this happens, i was the first person to acquire and post this very first image of PAF Block-52 with CFTs in Feb.2011....until then the rumour was that US is not supplying CFTs to the PAF. Once i posted the image here on PDF....it went viral with everyone under the Sun putting their own watermark on it and taking credit.



Thanks for sharing non watermark picture which basically ruins the pic 

Watermark show shallowness of folks taking credit for something they should not

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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> Thanks for sharing non watermark picture which basically ruins the pic
> 
> Watermark show shallowness of folks taking credit for something they should not


Unless they took the picture, watermark has no place on an image.

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## denel

HRK said:


> I think 1000 lbs version ....
> 
> View attachment 591383
> 
> (enlarge and colour enhanced version of the pic previously shared by @hassan1 )
> 
> @denel your beauty and our beast .....


welcome ... my very insignificant contrib to your capabilities

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## MIRauf

denel said:


> welcome ... my very insignificant contrib to your capabilities



Now now, you beaning very modest about it. Awesome work man, thank you, hats off.

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## Aamir Hussain

Inception-06 said:


> Yes noticed the weapon under the belly but what's on the wings Mates?


fuel tank and Matra Magic A2A missile

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## khanasifm



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## Windjammer



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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEP/2380

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## Adam_Khan

Adam_Khan said:


>


Was watching a video of the recent fire power demo and came across this part,looks like the REK series is also operational on the 27 squadron Mirage aircraft,have a look at the patch on the ordnance crew's arm.

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## HRK

Adam_Khan said:


> View attachment 592040
> 
> 
> 
> Was watching a video of the recent fire power demo and came across this part,looks like the REK series is also operational on the 27 squadron Mirage aircraft,have a look at the patch on the ordnance crew's arm.


plz share video link .....


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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> plz share video link .....

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## nomi007

pride of Nation


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## Inception-06



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## khanasifm

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 593057



Ruined Pic with logo

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## Windjammer

A Big One For Bipin....Mirages With Their Own SOW.

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## Deltadart

Windjammer said:


> A Big One For Bipin....Mirages With Their Own SOW.
> 
> View attachment 594632


I'm sure bipin is used to taking things up there but nothing this big....

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## khanasifm

Mirage are cleared for pk-83 or 1000 lbs based REK 

Only f-16 and jf Cleared for pk-84 or 2000 lbs based REK

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## Dazzler



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## Path-Finder

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 594861
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 594862


what is this?


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## Ultima Thule

Path-Finder said:


> what is this?


I thinks its upgraded ROSE Mirages MFDs


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## Deltadart

Sorry to pivot but any update on the Egyptian mirages?


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## Dazzler

Path-Finder said:


> what is this?



Rose-1 cockpit

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## khanasifm

According to ... paf aar pilot was followed by modifying ~xx number of mirages 

I am assuming these were all modernised / modified mirages 

Now jf has joined as well at least starting 2p-029 onwards

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## denel

Deltadart said:


> Sorry to pivot but any update on the Egyptian mirages?


Nothing, last question i asked response was some hitches.

Speculation - knowing how EAF is, someone or many there are still waiting to get envelopes before they let them go.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Nothing, last question i asked response was some hitches.
> 
> Speculation - knowing how EAF is, someone or many there are still waiting to get envelopes before they let them go.


I don't think we are in any rush to acquire them either. Although we should be, considering the war with gangadesh is on the horizon. The sooner we acquire them and put them in service the better.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Inception-06 said:


> View attachment 593057


52 year old veteran. From the first batch of IIIDP's delivered in 67/68.


air marshal said:


> http://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEP/2380


Mirage 5DR, Ex-Libyan. Ome of the 4 or 5 put into service together with a similar number of 5DD's.

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## denel

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> 52 year old veteran. From the first batch of IIIDP's delivered in 67/68.
> 
> Mirage 5DR, Ex-Libyan. Ome of the 4 or 5 put into service together with a similar number of 5DD's.


good lord, 52 year is same as those Bedford trucks in Pak still running metaphorically speaking.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> good lord, 52 year is same as those Bedford trucks in Pak still running metaphorically speaking.


those bedford trucks are pre independence.

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## GriffinsRule

Anyone who has been to Korangi Creek or can find out what these two Mirages are? They are both instructional airframes missing engines, seats or cockpit instrumentation but I am curious to know if which variant these are and if the serial numbers can be verified? @airomerix @waz @Knuckles @Windjammer
The first grey one looks like a Mirage 5D (of the dozens of ex-Libyan examples we bought in 2004) while the rear one could be any of the old PAF or other Mirages we have had in inventory. Can also see the tail of an F-6 in the back.
The image is from passing out parade a year or two ago perhaps.

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## Bossman

Path-Finder said:


> those bedford trucks are pre independence.


They are not


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## Incog_nito

In order to replace 200+ PAF Mirages operational in its fleet require replacement and there are several options available which can be considered at the moment:
1. 40 EF-2000s (with KSA support & also JAS-39 is not available / IAF already have Rafael)
2. 40-60 SU-35 from Russia.
3. 40-60 SU-57 from Russia.

If a deal can be made this year will mean that they will be going to be delivered until 2025 to PAF.


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## khanasifm

IM Ozair said:


> In order to replace 200+ PAF Mirages operational in its fleet require replacement and there are several options available which can be considered at the moment:
> 1. 40 EF-2000s (with KSA support & also JAS-39 is not available / IAF already have Rafael)
> 2. 40-60 SU-35 from Russia.
> 3. 40-60 SU-57 from Russia.
> 
> If a deal can be made this year will mean that they will be going to be delivered until 2025 to PAF.



There is no 200 plus fleet to begin with 

End of Story

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## Zulfiqar

IM Ozair said:


> In order to replace 200+ PAF Mirages operational in its fleet require replacement and there are several options available which can be considered at the moment:
> 1. 40 EF-2000s (with KSA support & also JAS-39 is not available / IAF already have Rafael)
> 2. 40-60 SU-35 from Russia.
> 3. 40-60 SU-57 from Russia.
> 
> If a deal can be made this year will mean that they will be going to be delivered until 2025 to PAF.



Twin engines apart from capex heavy are also opex heavy. This is specially true for russian fighters that are cheaper to procure but are opex heavy and cost much more in the long run (with overhauling of aircrafts/engines).

I would like 2 Sqds of SU-35/Chinese Eq for naval role but I think that we should not procure twin engined jets in that many numbers (as you stated) because we are a defensive air force and not an expeditionary one. 

It would be better choice to go for a single engined ones like J-10s in limited numbers (2 SQDs) and back them up with land based stand off weapons/cruise missiles of various ranges. 

Why spend 4 B $ plus on 2 SQDs of heavies when you can spend 2-2.5 B on lighter jets and use the remaining 1-1.5 B $ to have an inventory of 1000+ cruise missiles.

Look at the recent strike by iranians on the saudi oil facility. They don't have a very modern standing fleet but they used out of the box thinking and used long range drones and cruise missiles.

It is wiser and cheaper to have a large inventory of land based cruise missiles/stand off weapons so that remaining budgetary allocation can be used for purchasing relevant assets to ensure theater level air superiority.


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## Incog_nito

khanasifm said:


> There is no 200 plus fleet to begin with
> 
> End of Story


How many then?


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## Yasser76

IM Ozair said:


> How many then?



I would not be surprised if PAF Mirage fleet is now 80-100 strong with rest as spares source. Only 5 front line units plus an OCU left in two air bases.


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## Akh1112

IM Ozair said:


> In order to replace 200+ PAF Mirages operational in its fleet require replacement and there are several options available which can be considered at the moment:
> 1. 40 EF-2000s (with KSA support & also JAS-39 is not available / IAF already have Rafael)
> 2. 40-60 SU-35 from Russia.
> 3. 40-60 SU-57 from Russia.
> 
> If a deal can be made this year will mean that they will be going to be delivered until 2025 to PAF.




Why would we want Typhoons? They have supply chain issues with spares and parts. Just look at Germany's fleet. Out of 138(i think) there are only a handful that are combat ready, i think it was 2 the last time i read. The numbers may not be 100% accurate but they are indicative of a major issue with the supply chain of the aircraft. Imagine having a $100 million+ paperweight.

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## Windjammer

Wonder what is the weapon or gadget on the center pylon.
@Hodor @Adam_Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @HRK

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## Ahmet Pasha

What would a 5th/6th gen delta wing look like??


Windjammer said:


> Wonder what is the weapon or gadget on the center pylon.
> @Hodor @Adam_Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @HRK


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## Windjammer

Come to think of it, I believe it's an attachment for practice bomblets (Attached).

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> Come to think of it, I believe it's an attachment for practice bomblets (Attached).



6kg practice bomb which simulate MK-82s

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Wonder what is the weapon or gadget on the center pylon.
> @Hodor @Adam_Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @HRK


Sand bombs used for practice.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ahmet Pasha said:


> What would a 5th/6th gen delta wing look like??


It seems the PAF likes the Airbus FCAS.

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## Ultima Thule

OrientalGamer said:


> These jets can be sold to museum, I've seen one in person in beijing, as a gift from Pakistan.
> 
> Su-57 may sell to Pakistan after the final decision of India's 5th gen fighter. jf17 is the one to replace mirage, no matter you are happy or not.


There are no Chance that we will get Su-57 in near future anyway, there will be more chance that we will get modified FC-31 or TFX and we are also perusing indigenous 5th gen jets Named PROJECT AZM

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## mingle

seven0seven said:


> There are no Chance that we will get Su-57 in near future anyway, there will be more chance that we will get modified FC-31 or TFX and we are also perusing indigenous 5th gen jets Named PROJECT AZM


TFX I doubt on it too due turkish polices and politics with west and US. They may go for SU57


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## Path-Finder

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## khanasifm

I think today’s environment even drandal anti run bombs requiring pass needs to be replaced by stand offs type with anti run but with extended range

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## Nomad40

Path-Finder said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


Havent touched seen or heard a Mirage in 4 years


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## Dazzler

@denel 

Do i see some additional sensors beneath the nose? Surely not a FLIR housing or a recon camera.

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## nomi007




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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Dazzler said:


> @denel
> 
> Do i see some additional sensors beneath the nose? Surely not a FLIR housing or a recon camera.


Nose looks like a IIIRP. Could be a 5PA with a modified nose, a few were acquired from Australia and one was fitted to possibly the last IIIEP in service. That said IIIRP can also carry H-2/H-4.

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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> @denel
> 
> Do i see some additional sensors beneath the nose? Surely not a FLIR housing or a recon camera.


But these cameras were always there? Still photo cameras for recon, not even video.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

شاھین میزایل said:


> But these cameras were always there? Still photo cameras for recon, not even video.


OMERA F.100/OMERA 53 on IIIRP/5DR. Not on 5PA, plus the antenna behind the cockpit in this image means it most probably is IIIRP because in a 5PA that would be under and behind the nose.


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## nomi007



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## Talon

Dp after fresh paint

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## Haris Ali2140

Hodor said:


> Dp after fresh paint
> 
> View attachment 598846


Do you have any info on the cockpit of Mirages???


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## khanasifm

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 598833
> View attachment 598834
> View attachment 598835



Rose II and III are correct cockpits and Rose I looks like f-5 mod. Not sure if this is mirage


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## jupiter2007

While working with on JF-17 Block 3 and possibly block 4 in near future, why can’t we build mirage iii/V frame locally and marry it with Russian engine and Chinese, Turkish or locally build Avionics?

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## Imran Khan

jupiter2007 said:


> While working with on JF-17 Block 3 and possibly block 4 in near future, why can’t we build mirage iii/V frame locally and marry it with Russian engine and Chinese, Turkish or locally build Avionics?
> 
> View attachment 599028


mirages game is over in 2000 now its dead man walking sir .

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## jupiter2007

Imran Khan said:


> mirages game is over in 2000 now its dead man walking sir .



We still have 120 in service and all of them are not going away any time soon.

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## Imran Khan

jupiter2007 said:


> We still have 120 in service and all of them are not going away any time soon.


yes sir i agree but they are at end of thier service . it will be stupidity to make this 60 years old plane clones

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## FuturePAF

jupiter2007 said:


> We still have 120 in service and all of them are not going away any time soon.



@denel and I had a good discussion on the same idea of fitting a Russian Rd-33/Rd-93 engine on the mirage and giving these birds new capabilities with upgrades. At the end of the day, he convinced me that the costs of upgrade a very old airframe with all the risks in doing so, for. Marginally better aircraft are not worth it. It’s better we just increase the rate of production of the JF-17 and try to retire these Mirages as soon as we can. In the mean time a radar and avionics upgrade would be the most we should do to get there most out of these aircraft.

IMHO, if all of the JF-17s Block I and II get an Aesa Upgrade; their radars can be put into the least upgraded mirages for a decent upgrade with minimal cost. Jf-17 avionics could also be added to these planes for commonality of parts to also keep costs down, and we could then use all the weapons available to the JF-17 on the Mirages.

If at all possible, we should be trying to procure more used F-16s as they are Able to carry a heavier payload then the JF-17 and have a longer service life. Should the F-16 option not be available, we need to hold tight for a few years till the economy picks up to crank up the production of JF-17 till we reach 250-300 total JF-17, so that we can retire the Mirages and F-7PGs, in a model similar to Sweden that operates only their own Gripen for all their needs. We just need to keep the focus on making the JF-17 the best possible jet for the PAF, planning for a Block 4 by mid-decade; with IOC a few years after.

Honestly, it all comes down to the economy and diplomacy.

btw, I mention Denel because his company in South Africa did a similar upgrade and that aircraft is at a museum in South Africa. The South African Air Force didn’t upgrade their Mirages to the level of a new engine and just stuck with more modest upgrades. Eventually they retired those upgraded Mirages and bought the Gripen. So it’s very similar to the needs and situation of the PAF.

If you would like to see the plane, here it is: air frame 847

__
https://flic.kr/p/23128378372
https://www.airteamimages.com/atlas-cheetah_847_south-africa---air-force_135784.html

"The performance increase offered by the Russian engine was impressive, but a combination of budget cuts and problems with the aircraft's centre of gravity contributed to the program's termination"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Cheetah

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## TOPGUN

A lot of you people just don't seem to get it, as it seems mirages are serving us well and shall in the near future as soon as thunders take their place inshallah... then they will be history there will be only upgrading in the sense of up keeping nothing more or less other then that when you have to a fighter to replace another cant do that if you don't have enough in the basket in due time things will change for now give those mirages some respect and their crew in the cockpit and on the ground.

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## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215665578536505347

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215668660771217409

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## nomi007

jupiter2007 said:


> While working with on JF-17 Block 3 and possibly block 4 in near future, why can’t we build mirage iii/V frame locally and marry it with Russian engine and Chinese, Turkish or locally build Avionics?
> 
> View attachment 599028


Sir, We don't have Karoon treasures. Still PAF planners are doing an excellent job to maintain balance of air supremacy in the region. Soon PAF is going to start 5th gen programs with chinese & turkish friends.
Quantity doesn't matter, but Quality and that's the motto of PAF


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## jupiter2007

nomi007 said:


> Sir, We don't have Karoon treasures. Still PAF planners are doing an excellent job to maintain balance of air supremacy in the region. Soon PAF is going to start 5th gen programs with chinese & turkish friends.
> Quantity doesn't matter, but Quality and that's the motto of PAF



Not Karoon but close to it. 60 billon dollars were stolen under the nose of establishment. 
Was army sleeping with the enemy?

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

nomi007 said:


> chinese friends.


 there are no friends, only common interests

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## nomi007

jupiter2007 said:


> Not Karoon but close to it. 60 billon dollars were stolen under the nose of establishment.
> Was army sleeping with the enemy?


May be all of them were involved?


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## jupiter2007

nomi007 said:


> May be all of them were involved?



it has to be since not even a leaf moves in Pakistan without the consent of Army.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Forget about JF-17s, looks like these mirages are the most top secret a/c of the PAF...

Nobody would know for sure what "surprises" they can deliver...

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## jupiter2007

Imran Khan said:


> yes sir i agree but they are at end of thier service . it will be stupidity to make this 60 years old plane clones



Indian LCA is pretty much copy of Mirage F-1

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## FuturePAF

jupiter2007 said:


> Indian LCA is pretty much copy of Mirage F-1



More like a re-engined and smaller Mirage 2000. They would have been better off just buying the production line from France in the 80's and doing what Turkey did with the F-16, or at least did a joint venture as Pakistan is doing. The Indian's couldn't swallow their pride, and want to do it all indigenously.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

FuturePAF said:


> @denel and I had a good discussion on the same idea of fitting a Russian Rd-33/Rd-93 engine on the mirage and giving these birds new capabilities with upgrades. At the end of the day, he convinced me that the costs of upgrade a very old airframe with all the risks in doing so, for. Marginally better aircraft are not worth it. It’s better we just increase the rate of production of the JF-17 and try to retire these Mirages as soon as we can. In the mean time a radar and avionics upgrade would be the most we should do to get there most out of these aircraft.
> 
> IMHO, if all of the JF-17s Block I and II get an Aesa Upgrade; their radars can be put into the least upgraded mirages for a decent upgrade with minimal cost. Jf-17 avionics could also be added to these planes for commonality of parts to also keep costs down, and we could then use all the weapons available to the JF-17 on the Mirages.
> 
> If at all possible, we should be trying to procure more used F-16s as they are Able to carry a heavier payload then the JF-17 and have a longer service life. Should the F-16 option not be available, we need to hold tight for a few years till the economy picks up to crank up the production of JF-17 till we reach 250-300 total JF-17, so that we can retire the Mirages and F-7PGs, in a model similar to Sweden that operates only their own Gripen for all their needs. We just need to keep the focus on making the JF-17 the best possible jet for the PAF, planning for a Block 4 by mid-decade; with IOC a few years after.
> 
> Honestly, it all comes down to the economy and diplomacy.
> 
> btw, I mention Denel because his company in South Africa did a similar upgrade and that aircraft is at a museum in South Africa. The South African Air Force didn’t upgrade their Mirages to the level of a new engine and just stuck with more modest upgrades. Eventually they retired those upgraded Mirages and bought the Gripen. So it’s very similar to the needs and situation of the PAF.
> 
> If you would like to see the plane, here it is: air frame 847
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/23128378372
> https://www.airteamimages.com/atlas-cheetah_847_south-africa---air-force_135784.html
> 
> "The performance increase offered by the Russian engine was impressive, but a combination of budget cuts and problems with the aircraft's centre of gravity contributed to the program's termination"
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Cheetah


The major deficiency of a Mirage III/5 is the limited range and thrust/weight ratio. A new, more efficient engine - preferably one derived from the RD-33 to keep commonality with JF-17's, and possible re-manufacture of the airframe with composite lightweight materials and/or new wings to increase fuel-carrying capacity, similar to the Cheetah-E might solve those but it comes down to whether or not a need arises for a ground-attack platform in the same class and whether acquiring an off the shelf platform would be more economically viable. Why South Africa went ahead with Cheetah and why we went with ROSE had to do more with difficulties acquiring a better replacement than with the Mirage being an upgrade friendly platform.


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## FuturePAF

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> The major deficiency of a Mirage III/5 is the limited range and thrust/weight ratio. A new, more efficient engine - preferably one derived from the RD-33 to keep commonality with JF-17's, and possible re-manufacture of the airframe with composite lightweight materials and/or new wings to increase fuel-carrying capacity, similar to the Cheetah-E might solve those but it comes down to whether or not a need arises for a ground-attack platform in the same class and whether acquiring an off the shelf platform would be more economically viable. Why South Africa went ahead with Cheetah and why we went with ROSE had to do more with difficulties acquiring a better replacement than with the Mirage being an upgrade friendly platform.



The problems that arise from re-engine-ing the mirages have been well documented. Adding composite materials might be less of a problem, but the costs may not make it worth. At best the current Atar-9 Engine can be refurbished and modifications made to upgrade the thrust, but beyond that, its best to stick to just upgrading the avionics and radar to get the most impact.

Upgrading the Block I and II JF-17s with an AESA radar allows its older KLJ-7 radars to be re-purposed to the best fly worth air frames that have not gotten a Grifo Radar upgrade as part of a Rose Upgrade.

We have to remember, anything we do on the Mirages are only a stop-gap measure until we have enough JF-17s or can hopefully get more used or new F-16s.

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## jupiter2007

FuturePAF said:


> The problems that arise from re-engine-ing the mirages have been well documented. Adding composite materials might be less of a problem, but the costs may not make it worth. At best the current Atar-9 Engine can be refurbished and modifications made to upgrade the thrust, but beyond that, its best to stick to just upgrading the avionics and radar to get the most impact.
> 
> Upgrading the Block I and II JF-17s with an AESA radar allows its older KLJ-7 radars to be re-purposed to the best fly worth air frames that have not gotten a Grifo Radar upgrade as part of a Rose Upgrade.
> 
> We have to remember, anything we do on the Mirages are only a stop-gap measure until we have enough JF-17s or can hopefully get more used or new F-16s.



The way situation is constantly changing in Middle East, we don’t know if and when we will be able to get used F-16s. Will Trump going to be Impeached? Does Democrats have enough votes in senate to impeach him?
As we all know JF-17 block3 production will be limited due to external orders. We have close to 180 older planes which will have to be replaced by JF-17 or with something else. We just purchased older Mirage frames from Egypt which mean will keep 30+ Mirage in service for another 10 years.

That is sad reality that we didn’t work with South Africa to build new frame for mirage instead of refurbishing old frames.

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## Pakistani Fighter

FuturePAF said:


> hopefully get more used or new F-16s.


US is not even giving us AH 1Zs even though we had paid for them


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## jupiter2007

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> US is not even giving us AH 1Zs even though we had paid for them



Pentagon (deep state) wanted to release them but begharat Trump put them on hold.


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## GriffinsRule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> US is not even giving us AH 1Zs even though we had paid for them


When did we pay for them?

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## Pakistani Fighter

GriffinsRule said:


> When did we pay for them?


According to @HRK 950 million dollars have been paid


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## khanasifm

Please take your off topic discussion to its proper thread 

Thank you [emoji120]


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## denel

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> The major deficiency of a Mirage III/5 is the limited range and thrust/weight ratio. A new, more efficient engine - preferably one derived from the RD-33 to keep commonality with JF-17's, and possible re-manufacture of the airframe with composite lightweight materials and/or new wings to increase fuel-carrying capacity, similar to the Cheetah-E might solve those but it comes down to whether or not a need arises for a ground-attack platform in the same class and whether acquiring an off the shelf platform would be more economically viable. Why South Africa went ahead with Cheetah and why we went with ROSE had to do more with difficulties acquiring a better replacement than with the Mirage being an upgrade friendly platform.


Actually in our case; it was a stop gap measure to acquire most current at the time airframe which could compete against Mig-23/29s which were on our doorsteps. Lavi was in the works as well and a parallel Craver program. Not many know it but Lavi models and wind tunnel tests were done at Atlas.

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## HRK

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> According to @HRK 950 million dollars have been paid


- I mentioned only the contract price as mention in the letter to US congress by Obama Administration
- Rule Out the possibility of Grant and/or US funding ....
- I never mention the mode of payment as it is not clear till to date ...

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## Pakistani Fighter

HRK said:


> - I mentioned only the contract price as mention in the letter to US congress by Obama Administration
> - Rule Out the possibility of Grant and/or US funding ....
> - I never mention the mode of payment as it is not clear till to date ...


Oh ok sorry


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## Myth_buster_1

FuturePAF said:


> More like a re-engined and smaller Mirage 2000. They would have been better off just buying the production line from France in the 80's and doing what Turkey did with the F-16, or at least did a joint venture as Pakistan is doing. The Indian's couldn't swallow their pride, and want to do it all indigenously.



LCA is a product of European engineers.
This is a Swiss Piranha which is a small light weight fighter.

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## HRK

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Oh ok sorry


no issue at all


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## araz

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> According to @HRK 950 million dollars have been paid


I think you have misconstrued the situation. The total package price is 950 million. Part of this was to be paid as CSF. PAA wanted to use as much of the CSF as it could acquiring the AH1Zs. But the US froze the CSF insted asking for PAA to pay the whole contract sum from ita own funds. This is where the controversy lies.
A

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## ziaulislam

jupiter2007 said:


> The way situation is constantly changing in Middle East, we don’t know if and when we will be able to get used F-16s. Will Trump going to be Impeached? Does Democrats have enough votes in senate to impeach him?
> As we all know JF-17 block3 production will be limited due to external orders. We have close to 180 older planes which will have to be replaced by JF-17 or with something else. We just purchased older Mirage frames from Egypt which mean will keep 30+ Mirage in service for another 10 years.
> 
> That is sad reality that we didn’t work with South Africa to build new frame for mirage instead of refurbishing old frames.


impeachment is a drama and its over

Questision is will trump be relected?
Answer is yes unless a white male democratic candidate who black and hispanics love appear ? And i dont see that happening

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## Dazzler



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## FuturePAF

jupiter2007 said:


> The way situation is constantly changing in Middle East, we don’t know if and when we will be able to get used F-16s. Will Trump going to be Impeached? Does Democrats have enough votes in senate to impeach him?
> As we all know JF-17 block3 production will be limited due to external orders. We have close to 180 older planes which will have to be replaced by JF-17 or with something else. We just purchased older Mirage frames from Egypt which mean will keep 30+ Mirage in service for another 10 years.
> 
> That is sad reality that we didn’t work with South Africa to build new frame for mirage instead of refurbishing old frames.



Your right; we should have worked with the South Africans but not to buy new air frames but to rebuild our own Mirages when it would have been worth it; in the mid-90s, around the time they were in active development of the cheetah to its final variants, but that was the time the Air Force at the time wanted to buy mirage 2000s and the PPP government at the time stole the money.

Consider we have an aerospace industry now, and we have an urgent need; we should still do the upgrade ourselves; especially if each older JF-17 will be getting an AESA. Their “KLJ-7” radars could be transferred over to the Mirages, and the avionics upgraded to match the JF-17, allowing a commonality if parts and weapons systems. 

Trump will be out of office in 1-5 years and the US will come around to competing for influence with China in Pakistan. Giving Pakistan more F-16s may be a part of keeping Pakistan “more neutral” vis a vi China, eventually.

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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> Your right; we should have worked with the South Africans but not to buy new air frames but to rebuild our own Mirages when it would have been worth it; in the mid-90s, around the time they were in active development of the cheetah to its final variants, but that was the time the Air Force at the time wanted to buy mirage 2000s and the PPP government at the time stole the money.
> 
> Consider we have an aerospace industry now, and we have an urgent need; we should still do the upgrade ourselves; especially if each older JF-17 will be getting an AESA. Their “KLJ-7” radars could be transferred over to the Mirages, and the avionics upgraded to match the JF-17, allowing a commonality if parts and weapons systems.
> 
> Trump will be out of office in 1-5 years and the US will come around to competing for influence with China in Pakistan. Giving Pakistan more F-16s may be a part of keeping Pakistan “more neutral” vis a vi China, eventually.


No one has linked the Mirage Horus buy to the potential upgrade of the radar on our M3/5s. Is this why we are buying the M3/5 from Egypt so we can look at the RC400 radars on them?
A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> No one has linked the Mirage Horus buy to the potential upgrade of the radar on our M3/5s. Is this why we are buying the M3/5 from Egypt so we can look at the RC400 radars on them?
> A


Why would we want that and we dont have mica irst to use with them anyway

May be they are better in air to ground rolw but again integeating our own weapons and that radar into our whole ecosystem will be useless cost activity too

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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> No one has linked the Mirage Horus buy to the potential upgrade of the radar on our M3/5s. Is this why we are buying the M3/5 from Egypt so we can look at the RC400 radars on them?
> A



I haven't heard or read anything pointing towards this possibility. Rather, its the Air frames that seem to be badly needed. The Horus Mirages maybe studied, but with the JF-17 program and the sub-systems developed because of it, means the PAF has local options to upgrade its own Mirages. The PAF Mirage Rebuild factory will probably be doing just that, rebuilding its mirages to keep them as flight worth as possible. IMHO, it would be prudent for PAF to do limited spare part manufacturing with 3D printing, for those hard to get parts so it can keeps its planes up in the air.

IMHO, In order for PAF to keep its numbers (~400-440 aircraft; 188 JF-17, 76 F-16s, 136 others) it should try to *rebuild at least 100 Mirages (and keep the 30 or so Horus Mirages going as long as possible; 2030-2035)*. Similar to the Atlas Cheetahs; Zero the Air Frames, add the non-moving canard, in flight refueling probe, and rebuild the engine to the highest standard possible. Modern Avionics, Radar, and an EW suite will allow these planes to be as deadly as any strike platform with a modest self protection/A2A capability.

*When the Air Frames are no longer viable, All their sub-systems should be transferred onto new built JF-17 Air Frames down the line (2030-2035, because even by 2030, we will be hard pressed to find spare parts from around the world for the mirages)
*
We have to plan within our modest military budgets, while maximizing capabilities. Upgrading the Mirages *modestly* is probably the most prudent course of action.

We may end up with an Air Force that is 76 F-16s and over 300 JF-17s, but we need our quantity as well as our quality. Project AZM may start flying by 2030, and fighters start getting inducted by 2035. By then *30 year old JF-17s can start to be retired along side 50 year old F-16s*.

If relations improve with the US to the point we can get dozens more F-16s, then that Just fewer JF-17s that need to be produced in the long run. either way; I doubt the US will sell enough F-16s to replace all of our Mirages, and so we should start to turn the Mirage rebuild factory into a Mirage Overhaul and Upgrade facility.

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## aliyusuf

ziaulislam said:


> Why would we want that and we dont have mica irst to use with them anyway


But they can certainly use the Mica-EM with 80km max range ... whether France will allow such a sale, as IAF uses these missiles on their Mirage-2Ks, is moot.


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## FuturePAF

aliyusuf said:


> But they can certainly use the Mica-EM with 80km max range ... whether France will allow such a sale, as IAF uses these missiles on their Mirage-2Ks, is moot.



This is why we can study these Horus Mirages and use the basic weapons they come with, but we need to upgrade our Mirages ourselves.


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## jupiter2007

FuturePAF said:


> I haven't heard or read anything pointing towards this possibility. Rather, its the Air frames that seem to be badly needed. The Horus Mirages maybe studied, but with the JF-17 program and the sub-systems developed because of it, means the PAF has local options to upgrade its own Mirages. The PAF Mirage Rebuild factory will probably be doing just that, rebuilding its mirages to keep them as flight worth as possible. IMHO, it would be prudent for PAF to do limited spare part manufacturing with 3D printing, for those hard to get parts so it can keeps its planes up in the air.
> 
> IMHO, In order for PAF to keep its numbers (~400-440 aircraft; 188 JF-17, 76 F-16s, 136 others) it should try to *rebuild at least 100 Mirages (and keep the 30 or so Horus Mirages going as long as possible; 2030-2035)*. Similar to the Atlas Cheetahs; Zero the Air Frames, add the non-moving canard, in flight refueling probe, and rebuild the engine to the highest standard possible. Modern Avionics, Radar, and an EW suite will allow these planes to be as deadly as any strike platform with a modest self protection/A2A capability.
> 
> *When the Air Frames are no longer viable, All their sub-systems should be transferred onto new built JF-17 Air Frames down the line (2030-2035, because even by 2030, we will be hard pressed to find spare parts from around the world for the mirages)
> *
> We have to plan within our modest military budgets, while maximizing capabilities. Upgrading the Mirages *modestly* is probably the most prudent course of action.
> 
> We may end up with an Air Force that is 76 F-16s and over 300 JF-17s, but we need our quantity as well as our quality. Project AZM may start flying by 2030, and fighters start getting inducted by 2035. By then *30 year old JF-17s can start to be retired along side 50 year old F-16s*.
> 
> If relations improve with the US to the point we can get dozens more F-16s, then that Just fewer JF-17s that need to be produced in the long run. either way; I doubt the US will sell enough F-16s to replace all of our Mirages, and so we should start to turn the Mirage rebuild factory into a Mirage Overhaul and Upgrade facility.



We will have to build 25+ Block 3 planes per years in order to replace older planes. With current production rate, We will won’t be able to replace older planes with block 3 in next 10 years. 

MRF will continue to keep Mirage in service for at least 10+ years. Why not take an attempt to build new mirage frame and apply upgrade to it instead of upgrading old mirage frame?






If it’s not possible, then trying to lease J-10C or J-16 until AZM is ready.

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## StormBreaker

jupiter2007 said:


> We will have to build 25+ Block 3 planes per years in order to replace older planes. With current production rate, We will won’t be able to replace older planes with block 3 in next 10 years.
> 
> MRF will continue to keep Mirage in service for at least 10+ years. Why not take an attempt to build new mirage frame and apply upgrade to it instead of upgrading old mirage frame?
> 
> View attachment 599597
> 
> 
> If it’s not possible, then trying to lease J-10C or J-16 until AZM is ready.


That would be setting up a new production line and the costs associated with it would be big. Moulds etc



araz said:


> I think you have misconstrued the situation. The total package price is 950 million. Part of this was to be paid as CSF. PAA wanted to use as much of the CSF as it could acquiring the AH1Zs. But the US froze the CSF insted asking for PAA to pay the whole contract sum from ita own funds. This is where the controversy lies.
> A


I think, US wants us to pay because they know that if they can pay to China and others, why ask CSF support from us.


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## jupiter2007

StormBreaker said:


> That would be setting up a new production line and the costs associated with it would be big. Moulds etc
> 
> 
> I think, US wants us to pay because they know that if they can pay to China and others, why ask CSF support from us.



Everything has a cost associated with it.


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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> I haven't heard or read anything pointing towards this possibility. Rather, its the Air frames that seem to be badly needed. The Horus Mirages maybe studied, but with the JF-17 program and the sub-systems developed because of it, means the PAF has local options to upgrade its own Mirages. The PAF Mirage Rebuild factory will probably be doing just that, rebuilding its mirages to keep them as flight worth as possible. IMHO, it would be prudent for PAF to do limited spare part manufacturing with 3D printing, for those hard to get parts so it can keeps its planes up in the air.
> 
> IMHO, In order for PAF to keep its numbers (~400-440 aircraft; 188 JF-17, 76 F-16s, 136 others) it should try to *rebuild at least 100 Mirages (and keep the 30 or so Horus Mirages going as long as possible; 2030-2035)*. Similar to the Atlas Cheetahs; Zero the Air Frames, add the non-moving canard, in flight refueling probe, and rebuild the engine to the highest standard possible. Modern Avionics, Radar, and an EW suite will allow these planes to be as deadly as any strike platform with a modest self protection/A2A capability.
> 
> *When the Air Frames are no longer viable, All their sub-systems should be transferred onto new built JF-17 Air Frames down the line (2030-2035, because even by 2030, we will be hard pressed to find spare parts from around the world for the mirages)
> *
> We have to plan within our modest military budgets, while maximizing capabilities. Upgrading the Mirages *modestly* is probably the most prudent course of action.
> 
> We may end up with an Air Force that is 76 F-16s and over 300 JF-17s, but we need our quantity as well as our quality. Project AZM may start flying by 2030, and fighters start getting inducted by 2035. By then *30 year old JF-17s can start to be retired along side 50 year old F-16s*.
> 
> If relations improve with the US to the point we can get dozens more F-16s, then that Just fewer JF-17s that need to be produced in the long run. either way; I doubt the US will sell enough F-16s to replace all of our Mirages, and so we should start to turn the Mirage rebuild factory into a Mirage Overhaul and Upgrade facility.


You can simply now forget about more F16s primarily as US policies are changing in the region and unless they become desperate for our help they will not give us anything. As to transfer of software from M3s to JFT. In the 30s we will be building Block 5s and the hardware going into M3s now will be obsolete.
I do however see roughly 50 mirages being retained. If we had money the J10 would possibly have stepped into this role
A

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## denel

jupiter2007 said:


> We will have to build 25+ Block 3 planes per years in order to replace older planes. With current production rate, We will won’t be able to replace older planes with block 3 in next 10 years.
> 
> MRF will continue to keep Mirage in service for at least 10+ years. Why not take an attempt to build new mirage frame and apply upgrade to it instead of upgrading old mirage frame?
> 
> View attachment 599597
> 
> 
> If it’s not possible, then trying to lease J-10C or J-16 until AZM is ready.


Look as I noted even more, it is a matter of ROI and long term path. Already, PAC did procure zero hour wings from Atlas; same can be done for airframes as well; the jigs are still around. The challenge will be not to create something that is an overlap for jf-17 otherwise you are defeating the purpose. M3/5 are pure dedicated strike aircraft and on the horizon there is nothing to replacement.

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## FuturePAF

denel said:


> Look as I noted even more, it is a matter of ROI and long term path. Already, PAC did procure zero hour wings from Atlas; same can be done for airframes as well; the jigs are still around. The challenge will be not to create something that is an overlap for jf-17 otherwise you are defeating the purpose. M3/5 are pure dedicated strike aircraft and on the horizon there is nothing to replacement.



Considering we are buying Egyptian Mirages just to make sure our Mirages keep flying, how many air frames do you think we could get from Denel/Atlas? Also, how much would it cost? Would Denel be willing to transfer the whole facility to Pakistan, lock stock and barrel?

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## Pakistani Fighter

denel said:


> Look as I noted even more, it is a matter of ROI and long term path. Already, PAC did procure zero hour wings from Atlas; same can be done for airframes as well; the jigs are still around. The challenge will be not to create something that is an overlap for jf-17 otherwise you are defeating the purpose. M3/5 are pure dedicated strike aircraft and on the horizon there is nothing to replacement.


@airomerix claims Thunders can carry RA'AD. Then what are those weapons which Thunders can't carry like Mirages?

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## denel

FuturePAF said:


> Considering we are buying Egyptian Mirages just to make sure our Mirages keep flying, how many air frames do you think we could get from Denel/Atlas? Also, how much would it cost? Would Denel be willing to transfer the whole facility to Pakistan, lock stock and barrel?


We built the jigs the time, the prints were still there; it is nothing complex; in fact when we did the cheetah, new alloy was used which was lighter and yet more tensile than the original ones.

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## FuturePAF

denel said:


> We built the jigs the time, the prints were still there; it is nothing complex; in fact when we did the cheetah, new alloy was used which was lighter and yet more tensile than the original ones.



What would it take for the Mirage Rebuild factory (financially, technically, time frame) to do the same in Pakistan? Assuming Denel was willing to sell the jigs and the prints, and contract the knowledge transfer?

Also, are any Cheetahs in good flying order left over, that Pakistan can just buy out right?

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## denel

FuturePAF said:


> What would it take for the Mirage Rebuild factory (financially, technically, time frame) to do the same in Pakistan? Assuming Denel was willing to sell the jigs and the prints, and contract the knowledge transfer?
> 
> Also, are any Cheetahs in good flying order left over, that Pakistan can just buy out right?


We sold all our cheetahs to Ecuador. The jigs wont be sold but new ones can be build. There is nothing to them - no joke.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2010-07-16/atlas-cheetah-c-fighters-ecuador

all 30 of them. They were top of the line and Ecuador is very happy with them.

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## FuturePAF

denel said:


> We sold all our cheetahs to Ecuador. The jigs wont be sold but new ones can be build. There is nothing to them - no joke.
> 
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2010-07-16/atlas-cheetah-c-fighters-ecuador
> 
> all 30 of them. They were top of the line and Ecuador is very happy with them.



Could Pakistan send its Mirages to South Africa to be evaluated and rebuilt, or is it cheaper to just build them from scratch with the new alloys as you mentioned?


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## denel

FuturePAF said:


> Could Pakistan send its Mirages to South Africa to be evaluated and rebuilt, or is it cheaper to just build them from scratch with the new alloys as you mentioned?


As part of KT, it is training on the ground and one POC can be done as well. Those cheetah had pretty potent radar EL/M on them combined with hdms as well.


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## FuturePAF

denel said:


> As part of KT, it is training on the ground and one POC can be done as well. Those cheetah had pretty potent radar EL/M on them combined with hdms as well.



Not sure I understand the acronyms; "As part of KT, it is training on the ground and one POC can be done as well."


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## Maxpane

wonder why paf dnt get cheetah if everything is here?


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## Talon

denel said:


> Look as I noted even more, it is a matter of ROI and long term path. Already, PAC did procure zero hour wings from Atlas; same can be done for airframes as well; the jigs are still around. The challenge will be not to create something that is an overlap for jf-17 otherwise you are defeating the purpose. M3/5 are pure dedicated strike aircraft and on the horizon there is nothing to replacement.


Flying at even 50ft, of course no replacement for mirages.


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## denel

Maxpane said:


> wonder why paf dnt get cheetah if everything is here?


I have no idea;


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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VPA/2457

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## syed_yusuf

pakistan should have been an early adopter of rafael from france. this one fighter could not only have helped replace mirage but also help create f-16 replacement. early 2000's pakistan could have opt for a bigger order spanning 15 years or so with local production etc.

there are lots of ifs and buts around it. but this option should have been explored.

next option was EF2000, in my opinion it is better than Rafel. and we missed the boat over there also.

now PAf is left with chasing USA for more advance F-16/ upgrade existing ones. unfortunately PAF missed opportunity on J-10 or a version of J16. well known that russia might not allow j16 out right, diplomacy could have helped asking china help to convince russia.

as of now the only hope is project azm and upgrade to JFT. might not be a bad idea but till azm get in numbers we will be always keeping balance not gaining upper hand.


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## The Eagle

syed_yusuf said:


> now PAf is left with begging USA for more advance F-16/ upgrade existing ones.



Don't you think that is way too inappropriate to say like that & disrespecting as well? Since, why will one ever downgrade himself like this while having a hon'ble Air Force or any other Armed Force? At-least, don't disgrace your own defenders merely because of too much of anger or knowing little to what really happen back then.

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## syed_yusuf

The Eagle said:


> Don't you think that is way too inappropriate to say like that & disrespecting as well? Since, why will one ever downgrade himself like this while having a hon'ble Air Force or any other Armed Force? At-least, don't disgrace your own defenders merely because of too much of anger or knowing little to what really happen back then.




agree

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## nomi007



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## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> agree


Syed why Pak beg these planes will not be free we have to pay its business plus I would like PAF to negotiate same deal with US what they offered india at some point F21 bring LM at Kamra or jacobabad I know it's lot of money will good for another 25 - 40 yrs to come along replacement older F16s with F35.

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## syed_yusuf

mingle said:


> Syed why Pak beg these planes will not be free we have to pay its business plus I would like PAF to negotiate same deal with US what they offered india at some point F21 bring LM at Kamra or jacobabad I know it's lot of money will good for another 25 - 40 yrs to come along replacement older F16s with F35.



Ok - well F21 is a good evolution in fact an awesome evolution of dependable F-16. Looking at the history of Pakistan US relations, I can clearly say that it will come with lots of string attached and with lots of capital spend to have them. beside it will be quite a few notches lower than F-35 but better than anything IAf can fiel short of 5th gen fighter provided USA share with us the technology. using same argument buying j-10D or chinese version of su-27 will give us a platform not so expensive as F-21 but not as higher quality as F-21 also. it will be good enough to tackle rafael and IAF. No strings attached, cost effective. best solution is to jump into 5th gen now. for that the only solution that could become real in my opinion is some version of J20 rather quickly. all other options needs 5 -10 years wait time. However, if USA offer PAF F-35A. I would say jump on it. this will help project AZM many fold. it will be costly and would have similar kind of stings that we can expect with F-21 nut then again the technological jump is simply enormous.

Pakistan will have to Beg for F-35 or F-21 as USA do not consider Pakistan in the same boat as many other countries receiving top notch fighter from USA. we have been asking for F-16 for such a long time and when we are going to pay for F-16Blk52+ second batch it was derailed. and PAF was asked to pay for it out right. knowing very well that the cash crunch Pakistan cannot afford it. even though PAF and Pakistan followed the process agreed with the state department and Pentagon.

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## The Eagle

Thread topic is...

*Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.*

No more off-topic/derailment posts.

Regards,

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## Readerdefence

The Eagle said:


> Thread topic is...
> 
> *Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.*
> 
> No more off-topic/derailment posts.
> 
> Regards,


Hi senior moderator if possible to liable the posters to delete their off topic posts so a no educated person like me who come to read something about the specific topic can find related 
Material 
Thank you


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## TheTallGuy

air marshal said:


> http://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VPA/2457


this is a Mirage 5PA of original 28 ordered in 1970 and delivered in 1972 re-equipped No.9 Sqn after F104 retirement. look at her I think she has been overhauled & repainted pristine condition!

small mods have been implemented like new RWR, Chaff & Flare and VHF antenna...thats about it.

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## nomi007

*Made in Pakistan IRST POD*
what is the current status this pod?

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## Haris Ali2140

nomi007 said:


> *Made in Pakistan IRST POD*
> what is the current status this pod?


@Quwa


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## Sine Nomine

nomi007 said:


> *Made in Pakistan IRST POD*
> what is the current status this pod?


@Ipcha Mistabra shed some light on that Sir.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

nomi007 said:


> *Made in Pakistan IRST POD*
> what is the current status this pod?


Best case scenario, it was put behind a curtain and treated as a trump card (like the Raptor I/II and purported R-Darter stocks). Worst case, it didn't go anywhere.

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## aliyusuf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Best case scenario, it was put behind a curtain and treated as a trump card (like the Raptor I/II and purported R-Darter stocks). Worst case, it didn't go anywhere.


Why does this IRST have fins?


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## SQ8

Sine Nomine said:


> @Ipcha Mistabra shed some light on that Sir.


Circa 90’s, was designed for ROSE initially and then the hope was to integrate with vipers.

Results weren’t all too encouraging as reportedly maneuvering caused issues.

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## mshan44



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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

syed_yusuf said:


> Ok - well F21 is a good evolution in fact an awesome evolution of dependable F-16. Looking at the history of Pakistan US relations, I can clearly say that it will come with lots of string attached and with lots of capital spend to have them. beside it will be quite a few notches lower than F-35 but better than anything IAf can fiel short of 5th gen fighter provided USA share with us the technology. using same argument buying j-10D or chinese version of su-27 will give us a platform not so expensive as F-21 but not as higher quality as F-21 also. it will be good enough to tackle rafael and IAF. No strings attached, cost effective. best solution is to jump into 5th gen now. for that the only solution that could become real in my opinion is some version of J20 rather quickly. all other options needs 5 -10 years wait time. However, if USA offer PAF F-35A. I would say jump on it. this will help project AZM many fold. it will be costly and would have similar kind of stings that we can expect with F-21 nut then again the technological jump is simply enormous.
> 
> Pakistan will have to Beg for F-35 or F-21 as USA do not consider Pakistan in the same boat as many other countries receiving top notch fighter from USA. we have been asking for F-16 for such a long time and when we are going to pay for F-16Blk52+ second batch it was derailed. and PAF was asked to pay for it out right. knowing very well that the cash crunch Pakistan cannot afford it. even though PAF and Pakistan followed the process agreed with the state department and Pentagon.


Stop asking, start making....

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## Aamir Hussain

It still remains the most beautiful fighter aircraft ever produced!!!!

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## AMRAAM

nomi007 said:


> *Made in Pakistan IRST POD*
> what is the current status this pod?


6/1998. its such an old piece. Wondering if requirements or technology has been changed since then.


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## mshan44



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## nomi007

Where are Eygtian Mirages?


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## TheTallGuy

nomi007 said:


> Where are Eygtian Mirages?



i think it fizzle out...


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## niaz

Mirage III first flew in 1956! No matter how much you improve/modify a 1950’s design aircraft; it still remains essentially a 70-year-old design. I would also agree that for a cash-starved air force like the PAF; to have an obsolete plane like Mirage III / Mirage V is better than having ‘No’ plane at all.

Therefore one must understand that while these Mirages may be good for making up the numbers, the PAF Mirages will never be able to match the performance or effectiveness of any late 20th Century/21st Century warplane.

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## litman

niaz said:


> Mirage III first flew in 1956! No matter how much you improve/modify a 1950’s design aircraft; it still remains essentially a 70-year-old design. I would also agree that for a cash-starved air force like the PAF; to have an obsolete plane like Mirage III / Mirage V is better than having ‘No’ plane at all.
> 
> Therefore one must understand that while these Mirages may be good for making up the numbers, the PAF Mirages will never be able to match the performance or effectiveness of any late 20th Century/21st Century warplane.


you are right but PAF has modified the jet for its role and that is precision strike and it performed well against the much superior indian air force last year. we cant afford any jet right now. so our only option seems to be inducting more JFTs which will first replace the whole of F-7 P/PG fleet and only then the upgraded mirages as some weapons which mirage carries JFT cant carry such as the Raad cruise missile. mirage is going to stay in PAF for 10-15 years more atleast. PAF fleet likely after ten years will be comprising of F-16,mirage and JFT. project AZM is a dream only.

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

ghazi52 said:


>



That's a Qatari Mirage.


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## denel

ghazi52 said:


>


what is that M2K doing there? Qatari?


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## jupiter2007

denel said:


> what is that M2K doing there? Qatari?



If it was in China, China would have copied M2K.

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## Signalian

That difference in height 



ghazi52 said:


>


future hypothesis

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Strike aircraft have different kind of utility and level of performance when comparing to the air superiority fighter aircraft---.

For a fighter aircraft---you want something that is the best bang for the buck---.

But for a strike aircraft---you can use any flyable dog of a reasonable vintage as long as it has upgraded gadgets and EW suite---.

Mirage 3/5 is a perfect kind of aircraft for a Paf kind of airforce---for the strike missions it needs to perform---.

To top off its utility---the modern standoff weapons seems like have been created just for this aircraft---.

Amazing isn't it that when the americans were building the F16---they never thought of F16 be carrying standoff ALCM munitions---that is why it did not have a high clearance---the French on the other hand had some unique sense of utility for their mirage 3 / 5 aircraft that they have become a war horse of choice to carry the Hatf V111 ALCM---.

Then on the other hand---we have the B52 that has seen a new life to deliver these standoff weapons---the B1 bomber is also on the same course---.

Amazing that these 50 and 60 years old aircraft may well serve for another 20-30-40 years.

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## araz

Signalian said:


> View attachment 603308
> 
> 
> That difference in height
> 
> 
> future hypothesis


This boat sailed a couple of decades ago. There is no future investing in the M2K5. The last time we tried was 2002.
A

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## Haris Ali2140

Does anyone know whether Mirages have Data Links or not???

@Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian @Tipu7


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Does anyone know whether Mirages have Data Links or not???
> 
> @Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian @Tipu7


There was an interview with a ROSE I pilot who mentioned having data-links.


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## Haris Ali2140

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There was an interview with a ROSE I pilot who mentioned having data-links.


Yes, I saw that. So how much Data can be shared and how significant can it be???
@Dazzler


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## Dazzler

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Does anyone know whether Mirages have Data Links or not???
> 
> @Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian @Tipu7



Yes they do.

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## StormBreaker

Dazzler said:


> Yes they do.


17?


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## khanasifm

With no radar that’s how it has situational awareness picture from other in formation , ground and awacs

Now the question is is it available to ROSE modified or the whole fleet of mirages ???


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## Dazzler

StormBreaker said:


> 17?



Classified

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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> Classified


How much capability these DLs provide???


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## denel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> How much capability these DLs provide???


Let me put it this way, it is a specialised unit. no further comments.

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## PakFactor

denel said:


> Let me put it this way, it is a specialised unit. no further comments.



But we want you to comment more through. 

Give us a little taste.


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## StormBreaker

PakFactor said:


> But we want you to comment more through.
> 
> Give us a little taste.


First taste Link 17 then talk of it

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## Signalian

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Does anyone know whether Mirages have Data Links or not???
> 
> @Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian @Tipu7


Tactical Data Links are classified with very little information leaked.

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## khanasifm

Mirages and datalink @ 22:30

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## Dazzler

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Yes, I saw that. So how much Data can be shared and how significant can it be???
> @Dazzler



Realtime, audio and visual aid.


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## Haris Ali2140

Dazzler said:


> Realtime, audio and visual aid.


What about radar data? Can it also be shared?


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## Dazzler

Haris Ali2140 said:


> What about radar data? Can it also be shared?



Classified

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## denel

PakFactor said:


> But we want you to comment more through.
> 
> Give us a little taste.


Not going to happen; so do not ask. Let us put it this way, if Feb surprise was good enough, it tells you there are a lot of things hidden under the covers.

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## Signalian

I think Mirage-V is more likely to suffer air frame fatigue from low level penetration for strike mission







Low level penetration, while tactically effective in relatively benign threat environments, has some important limitations. The first is that it incurs a significant penalty in combat radius, since turbojet and turbofan Specific Fuel Consumption is poor at low altitudes, and the higher air density requires higher thrusts be employed to achieve tactically useful airspeeds. Moreover, continuous manoeuvres to clear terrain impose a significant fatigue load on the airframe, and the aircrew, thus limiting airframe life and aircrew endurance in combat.

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## Zephyrus

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Strike aircraft have different kind of utility and level of performance when comparing to the air superiority fighter aircraft---.
> 
> For a fighter aircraft---you want something that is the best bang for the buck---.
> 
> But for a strike aircraft---you can use any flyable dog of a reasonable vintage as long as it has upgraded gadgets and EW suite---.
> 
> Mirage 3/5 is a perfect kind of aircraft for a Paf kind of airforce---for the strike missions it needs to perform---.
> 
> To top off its utility---the modern standoff weapons seems like have been created just for this aircraft---.
> 
> Amazing isn't it that when the americans were building the F16---they never thought of F16 be carrying standoff ALCM munitions---that is why it did not have a high clearance---the French on the other hand had some unique sense of utility for their mirage 3 / 5 aircraft that they have become a war horse of choice to carry the Hatf V111 ALCM---.
> 
> Then on the other hand---we have the B52 that has seen a new life to deliver these standoff weapons---the B1 bomber is also on the same course---.
> 
> Amazing that these 50 and 60 years old aircraft may well serve for another 20-30-40 years.



Nicely put sir, endorsed

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Perception is a frame of mind---. A race car cannot do the job of a Road Roller or a vice versa---but if the Road Roller does not do its job properly---a race car cannot drive on the surface---.

A marathon sprinter cannot say that the 100 meters sprinter is not of much value because he is done in 9.9 seconds---.

In a similar manner---if a low flying strike aircraft cannot do their job properly by flying low down to the ground and take out the enemy SA missiles sites---the high flying air superiority fighter may not be able to do its job properly---.

The utility of their flight and design is by default created to bear the adverse effects of flying low---and if in that process they see severe structural stress effects then that is a part and function of what they were created to perform---.

So---if the flight parameters is hugging the ground---then the aircraft is doing its routine / normal job and the wear and tear from that job is "normal"---.

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## khanasifm

MIRAGE III ORIGINS. * The Mirage III family grew out of French government studies begun in 1952 that led in early 1953 to a specification for a lightweight all-weather interceptor, capable of climbing to 18 kilometers (11.2 miles) in six minutes, with speed in level flight of Mach 1.3.

During that era shooting down Russian bombers /fighters was main mission 

* The next major variant, the "Mirage 5", grew out of a request to Dassault from the IAF. Since the weather over the Mideast is clear and sunny most of the time, the Israelis suggested deleting all-weather avionics normally stored behind the cockpit from the standard Mirage IIIE to reduce cost and maintenance, and replacing the lost avionics with more fuel storage for the attack mission. In September 1966, the Israelis placed an order for 50 examples of the new aircraft.


Mirage 5 actually has/had 7 stations vs mirage 3, 5 stations and mirage 5 carry more fuel 300/400 kg more than mirage 3 equates to ~3300/3500 liters vs 3000 liters 

I had asked why paf not adopted 7 station config on mirage 5 especially on ROSE 

Answer ?? $$$$ the two additional stations were under intake next to the guns 


http://www.airvectors.net/avmir3_1.html


The Mirage 5 retained the IIIE's twin DEFA guns, but added two additional pylons, for a total of seven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5


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## Marker

Signalian said:


> I think Mirage-V is more likely to suffer air frame fatigue from low level penetration for strike mission
> 
> View attachment 604242
> 
> 
> Low level penetration, while tactically effective in relatively benign threat environments, has some important limitations. The first is that it incurs a significant penalty in combat radius, since turbojet and turbofan Specific Fuel Consumption is poor at low altitudes, and the higher air density requires higher thrusts be employed to achieve tactically useful airspeeds. Moreover, continuous manoeuvres to clear terrain impose a significant fatigue load on the airframe, and the aircrew, thus limiting airframe life and aircrew endurance in combat.



Service ceiling of Mirage V is 59000 ft.

PAF will utilize Mirage V mainly for CAS, coastal area and sea defense.

For CAS Mirage V can be equipped with H-2/4 SOWs whose ranges are about 60 and 120 kms and RAAD cruise missiles having range of 550 kms.

With these smart weapons Mirage V do not have to fly low level penetration strike to take down ground targets including Air Defense targets.

Low level penetration is only suitable for the targets deep inside the enemy border say 1000 or 1300 kms inside the enemy territory with thick air defense coverage.

Best strategy for PAF is to initially carry out SEAD missions within 100 to 200 kms inside the enemy territory then gradually expand the area of offensive operation to minimize PAF losses due to air defense weapons.

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## Signalian

Marker said:


> Low level penetration is only suitable for the targets deep inside the enemy border say 1000 or 1300 kms inside the enemy territory with thick air defense coverage.


You have somewhat answered yourself the main purpose of Mirage-V in PAF.

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## Marker

Signalian said:


> You have somewhat answered yourself the main purpose of Mirage-V in PAF.



This strategy is not viable as it will cause excessive losses under current scenario.

Mirage V is not a stealth aircraft. 

Possibility of detection even during low level strike is very high specially when India is armed with S-400s and other modern radars.

PAF have to extend its operation area gradually but of course very quickly and very efficiently!!!! This could be possible if PAF focuses on its operational readiness!!!!

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## Signalian

Marker said:


> This strategy is not viable as it will cause excessive losses under current scenario.
> 
> Mirage V is not a stealth aircraft.
> 
> Possibility of detection even during low level strike is very high specially when India is armed with S-400s and other modern radars.
> 
> PAF have to extend its operation area gradually but of course very quickly and very efficiently!!!! This could be possible if PAF focuses on its operational readiness!!!!



Yes, Mirage V is not stealth, that why night time low level penetration and precision strike for upgraded ROSE II and ROSE III is considered.


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## Marker

Today's modern Air Forces strategy should be an intelligent and efficient application of of all available assets to optimize outcomes.



Signalian said:


> Yes, Mirage V is not stealth, that why night time low level penetration and precision strike for upgraded ROSE II and ROSE III is considered.



Yes, but they are visible on the modern radars including AEW&Cs during night strikes and bad weather as far as 1000+ kms depending on terrain and the kill zone of effective air defense (based on current Indian assets) starts from 40 kms to 400+ kms.

Now element of surprise will not be low level deep strike during night or bad weather. It should be continuous tossing of smart stand off weapons from comparative "safe" zone (BVR) and expanding the area of operation gradually.


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## Signalian

Marker said:


> Today's modern Air Forces strategy should be an intelligent and efficient application of of all available assets to optimize outcomes.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but they are visible on the modern radars including AEW&Cs during night strikes and bad weather as far as 1000+ kms depending on terrain and the kill zone of effective air defense (based on current Indian assets) starts from 40 kms to 400+ kms.
> 
> Now element of surprise will not be low level deep strike during night or bad weather. It should be continuous tossing of smart stand off weapons from comparative "safe" zone (BVR) and expanding the area of operation gradually.


AWACS are not airborne all the time. 27th Feb 2019 is a witness to that. AD can be avoided through trajectory planning. Element of surprise is another topic.



MastanKhan said:


> So---if the flight parameters is hugging the ground---then the aircraft is doing its routine / normal job and the wear and tear from that job is "normal"---.



Mirage V has to be replaced. Production line was closed decades ago, spares are scarce even if available. There was a recent crash of ROSE Mirage-V. That leaves around 32 or 33 (ROSE II +III) in service now. Same situation that F-16 once faced in 1990's, when around 34 were available.

Three specialized squadrons are dependent on Mirage-V (8/25/27)

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## Marker

Signalian said:


> AWACS are not airborne all the time. 27th Feb 2019 is a witness to that. AD can be avoided through trajectory planning. Element of surprise is another topic.



What do you think, IAF will not revise its strategy!

They are already buying and integrating more of these assets.

After "formal" declaration of war PAF and IAF AEW&Cs will be in air 24/7.

Low level deep penetration night strikes is strategy of element of surprise.

PAF will carryout both day and night strikes.

However gaining element of surprise by carrying out Low level deep penetration night strikes is suicidal in presence of these modern radars and real time satellite coverage. (Indian Armed Forces do have such capabilities)

I will prefer to minimize losses of valuable assets during the conflict by utilizing them more efficiently and effectively.

SEAD/DEAD missions and taking out Command and Control air/sea/ground platforms should be the first priority of PAF.



Signalian said:


> AWACS are not airborne all the time. 27th Feb 2019 is a witness to that. AD can be avoided through trajectory planning. Element of surprise is another topic.
> 
> 
> 
> Mirage V has to be replaced. Production line was closed decades ago, spares are scarce even if available. There was a recent crash of ROSE Mirage-V. That leaves around 32 or 33 (ROSE II +III) in service now. Same situation that F-16 once faced in 1990's, when around 34 were available.
> 
> Three specialized squadrons are dependent on Mirage-V (8/25/27)



I will prefer not to discuss *exact *current configuration of PAF and IAF assets because we do not have such access. I will only speak my point of view based on available info in normal channels.

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## DrWatson775

Marker said:


> What do you think, IAF will not revise its strategy!
> 
> They are already buying and integrating more of these assets.
> 
> After "formal" declaration of war PAF and IAF AEW&Cs will be in air 24/7.
> 
> Low level deep penetration night strikes is strategy of element of surprise.
> 
> PAF will carryout both day and night strikes.
> 
> However gaining element of surprise by carrying out Low level deep penetration night strikes is suicidal in presence of these modern radars and real time satellite coverage. (Indian Armed Forces do have such capabilities)
> 
> I will prefer to minimize losses of valuable assets during the conflict by utilizing them more efficiently and effectively.
> 
> SEAD/DEAD missions and taking out Command and Control air/sea/ground platforms should be the first priority of PAF.


Some time back someone did mention low level ground attack missions that were carried out in an exercise in modern EW/threats environment. The result was that they do work even with modern radars/SAMs if planned carefully. However there is a steady rate of attrition - likely due to modern terminal air defenses and better radars.

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## aliyusuf

The figure above shows the uncomfortable ride that the Mirage-III offers at low level high speed flight. Profile characteristics won't be much different for Mirage-Vs either. The 0.5g bumps per min will affect the crew efficiency and the airframe as well.

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## Marker

DrWatson775 said:


> Some time back someone did mention low level ground attack missions that were carried out in an exercise in modern EW/threats environment. The result was that they do work even with modern radars/SAMs if planned carefully. However there is a steady rate of attrition - likely due to modern terminal air defenses and better radars.



Strategies are made on capabilities of available assets. 

PAF is comparatively small Air Force as compared to IAF.

So our strategy is not only to preserve our valuable assets but also utilize them effectively and efficiently to inflict maximum destruction of enemy targets at the cost of negligible loss of valuable resources and time.



aliyusuf said:


> View attachment 604458
> 
> 
> The figure above shows the uncomfortable ride that the Mirage-III offers at low level high speed flight. Profile characteristics won't be much different for Mirage-Vs either. The 0.5g bumps per min will affect the crew efficiency and the airframe as well.



But strangely PAF pilots managed to fly these aircraft so low on the sea surface during exercise "Inspired Alert" May 1995 penetrating successfully in the Carrier Task Force's early warning and perimeter defences of nuclear-powered USS Abraham Lincoln

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## aliyusuf

Marker said:


> Strategies are made on capabilities of available assets.
> 
> PAF is comparatively small Air Force as compared to IAF.
> 
> So our strategy is not only to preserve our valuable assets but also utilize them effectively and efficiently to inflict maximum destruction of enemy targets at the cost of negligible loss of valuable resources and time.
> 
> 
> 
> But strangely PAF pilots managed to fly these aircraft so low on the sea surface during exercise "Inspired Alert" May 1995 penetrating successfully in the Carrier Task Force's early warning and perimeter defences of nuclear-powered USS Abraham Lincoln


It is not the Mirage that has been effective ... it's our pilots who are extraordinary. We have mastered this plane. Flying and H/W wise. But that doesn't mean we are not hindered by the platform's limitations. A better fighter will definitely offer much better results. At the moment we are making best of an unfavorable situation and have turned a disadvantage into an advantage. That takes some skill.

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## Marker

aliyusuf said:


> It is not the Mirage that has been effective ... it's our pilots who are extraordinary. We have mastered this plane. Flying and H/W wise. But that doesn't mean we are not hindered by the platform's limitations. A better fighter will definitely offer much better results. At the moment we are making best of an unfavorable situation and have turned a disadvantage into an advantage. That takes some skill.



I fully agree.


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## Signalian

Marker said:


> What do you think, IAF will not revise its strategy!
> 
> They are already buying and integrating more of these assets.
> 
> After "formal" declaration of war PAF and IAF AEW&Cs will be in air 24/7.
> 
> Low level deep penetration night strikes is strategy of element of surprise.
> 
> PAF will carryout both day and night strikes.
> 
> However gaining element of surprise by carrying out Low level deep penetration night strikes is suicidal in presence of these modern radars and real time satellite coverage. (Indian Armed Forces do have such capabilities)
> 
> I will prefer to minimize losses of valuable assets during the conflict by utilizing them more efficiently and effectively.
> 
> SEAD/DEAD missions and taking out Command and Control air/sea/ground platforms should be the first priority of PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> I will prefer not to discuss *exact *current configuration of PAF and IAF assets because we do not have such access. I will only speak my point of view based on available info in normal channels.


Element of surprise is lost when war starts because enemy is expecting attacks, day or night.

Low level attack is suitable for contemporary bombers, which hints towards survival, not surprise.



aliyusuf said:


> View attachment 604458
> 
> 
> The figure above shows the uncomfortable ride that the Mirage-III offers at low level high speed flight. Profile characteristics won't be much different for Mirage-Vs either. The 0.5g bumps per min will affect the crew efficiency and the airframe as well.

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## aliyusuf

Signalian said:


>


Would we be flying at such slow speeds on all strike mission?
In some scenarios and situations it might work but not in all cases. And once the speed increases the number of bumps per minute will increase at low level.
So the PAF must have worked out something to make it effective but albeit with trade-offs/compromises.
Again, credit is with our pilots on making this machine work and work well.


----------



## Marker

Signalian said:


> Element of surprise is lost when war starts because enemy is expecting attacks, day or night.
> 
> Low level attack is suitable for contemporary bombers, which hints towards survival, not surprise.



It is the beauty of the strategy which a skillful commander effectively implements in the battle field. 

Strategy of element of surprise is always there, only that great commanders know how to use it, when to use it where to use it and why to use it.

In the modern battle field, the fog of war is almost eliminated due availability of state of art radars and satellites.
Due to availability of this kind of real time situation awareness, element of surprise strategy is altogether evolved.

Fast and decisive response at your chosen time is one kind of element of surprise. The latest example was 27-2-2019. 

Denial to access awareness of capabilities of your assets is another way of using element of surprise. PAF utilized both on 27-2-2019.

Correct awareness of strength and weakness of opponent is very important to design an effective element of surprise strategy. 

IAF was well aware that PAF is going to retaliate because it was already announced by ISPR.

IAF was expecting PAF strike during night of 26-2-2019.

So IAF had AEW&Cs in air or otherwise on 27-2-2019 was their commander's decision. 

How effective were these airborne radars against PAF EW platforms is another story.


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## Signalian

Marker said:


> It is the beauty of the strategy which a skillful commander effectively implements in the battle field.
> 
> Strategy of element of surprise is always there, only that great commanders know how to use it, when to use it where to use it and why to use it.
> 
> In the modern battle field, the fog of war is almost eliminated due availability of state of art radars and satellites.
> Due to availability of this kind of real time situation awareness, element of surprise strategy is altogether evolved.
> 
> Fast and decisive response at your chosen time is one kind of element of surprise. The latest example was 27-2-2019.
> 
> Denial to access awareness of capabilities of your assets is another way of using element of surprise. PAF utilized both on 27-2-2019.
> 
> Correct awareness of strength and weakness of opponent is very important to design an effective element of surprise strategy.
> 
> IAF was well aware that PAF is going to retaliate because it was already announced by ISPR.
> 
> IAF was expecting PAF strike during night of 26-2-2019.
> 
> So IAF had AEW&Cs in air or otherwise on 27-2-2019 was their commander's decision.
> 
> How effective were these airborne radars against PAF EW platforms is another story.


You can keep going in circles all day, however low altitude attacks will take place, its up to PAF to decide how. My concern is for airframe of Mirage-V which needs replacement.



aliyusuf said:


> Would we be flying at such slow speeds on all strike mission?
> In some scenarios and situations it might work but not in all cases. And once the speed increases the number of bumps per minute will increase at low level.
> So the PAF must have worked out something to make it effective but albeit with trade-offs/compromises.
> Again, credit is with our pilots on making this machine work and work well.


That is up to PAF to decide, not me and you. The low altitude attacks have been seen in excercises too.How much low is low altitude, thats again up to PAF.

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## StormBreaker

Signalian said:


> You can keep going in circles all day, however low altitude attacks will take place, its up to PAF to decide how. My concern is for airframe of Mirage-V which needs replacement.
> 
> 
> That is up to PAF to decide, not me and you. The low altitude attacks have been seen in excercises too.How much low is low altitude, thats again up to PAF.


Our pilots have been training for decades for low altitude attacks. It would be a pity to scrap away delta config from our fleet structure. Mirage 2000 is the need of hour


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## Marker

Signalian said:


> You can keep going in circles all day, however low altitude attacks will take place, its up to PAF to decide how. My concern is for airframe of Mirage-V which needs replacement.
> 
> That is up to PAF to decide, not me and you. The low altitude attacks have been seen in excercises too.How much low is low altitude, thats again up to PAF.



Airframe wear and tear mainly depends on users usage profile. 

It is the timely preventive maintenance inspections which avoids catastrophic failures.

Manufacturers and refurbishers set the schedule for these type of inspections based on the airframe limitation such as max g limitation and speed limitations and users usage input. PAC as an authorized re-builder / refurbisher of Mirages is doing the same. 

PAF is famous for optimum use of its air machines and will continue to do so.

As far as I know, there is no PAF Mirage crashed due to airframe failure.



StormBreaker said:


> Our pilots have been training for decades for low altitude attacks. It would be a pity to scrap away delta config from our fleet structure. Mirage 2000 is the need of hour
> 
> 
> View attachment 604463




Considering Pakistan's current financial and economical conditions and ever changing global political situation, it is not viable to buy a new aircraft system even used one. 

PAF strategy of buying used Mirage III/Vs, refurbishing their airframes and upgrading with suitable avionic suits is more viable solution then buying a new aircraft system.


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## Viper27

Apart from Egypt is there any other former operator from whom PAF could get parts/airframes?


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## Zulfiqar

aliyusuf said:


> Would we be flying at such slow speeds on all strike mission?
> In some scenarios and situations it might work but not in all cases. And once the speed increases the number of bumps per minute will increase at low level.
> So the PAF must have worked out something to make it effective but albeit with trade-offs/compromises.
> Again, credit is with our pilots on making this machine work and work well.




The video is in slow-mo BTW.


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## MastanKhan

aliyusuf said:


> Would we be flying at such slow speeds on all strike mission?
> In some scenarios and situations it might work but not in all cases. And once the speed increases the number of bumps per minute will increase at low level.
> So the PAF must have worked out something to make it effective but albeit with trade-offs/compromises.
> Again, credit is with our pilots on making this machine work and work well.



Hi,

That fly by is just to show off his flying abilities.

Normal speed would be around 500 knots---.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That fly by is just to show off his flying abilities.
> 
> Normal speed would be around 500 knots---.


*CGI, quite obvious from the surprisingly clean sound and the fact that no dust is kicked up in a sandy desert environment.


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## Deltadart

Viper27 said:


> Apart from Egypt is there any other former operator from whom PAF could get parts/airframes?


Swiss


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## Signalian

Marker said:


> Airframe wear and tear mainly depends on users usage profile.
> 
> It is the timely preventive maintenance inspections which avoids catastrophic failures.
> 
> Manufacturers and refurbishers set the schedule for these type of inspections based on the airframe limitation such as max g limitation and speed limitations and users usage input. PAC as an authorized re-builder / refurbisher of Mirages is doing the same.
> 
> PAF is famous for optimum use of its air machines and will continue to do so.
> 
> As far as I know, there is no PAF Mirage crashed due to airframe failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considering Pakistan's current financial and economical conditions and ever changing global political situation, it is not viable to buy a new aircraft system even used one.
> 
> PAF strategy of buying used Mirage III/Vs, refurbishing their airframes and upgrading with suitable avionic suits is more viable solution then buying a new aircraft system.



I dont like going in circles, revert to post# 3027, second reply.


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## denel

Viper27 said:


> Apart from Egypt is there any other former operator from whom PAF could get parts/airframes?


Friend. Altas still makes wings on order and has jigs for airframes (Cheetah) and can make other parts as required. PAF was delivered new wings long back.
There is no other supplier except IAI and Atlas who can make these parts new.

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Friend. Altas still makes wings on order and has jigs for airframes (Cheetah) and can make other parts as required. PAF was delivered new wings long back.
> There is no other supplier except IAI and Atlas who can make these parts new.


These mirages are still flying largely because of SA.

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> These mirages are still flying largely because of SA.


 yes, when i look at those birds - some part of me is still there and will be there after I am gone from this world. 

I look back - i never thought it would be around this long, but that is life too

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## PakFactor

denel said:


> yes, when i look at those birds - some part of me is still there and will be there after I am gone from this world.
> 
> I look back - i never thought it would be around this long, but that is life too



How old are you?


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## Marker

Signalian said:


> I dont like going in circles, revert to post# 3027, second reply.



It all depends on the future of Mirages in PAF. 

If PAF decides to maintain Mirages for a longer time, PAC AMF has the capability to provide spares for Mirage airframe structures including major bulkheads, plumbing, electrical harnesses, hinges, brackets and actuators. 

Components used in hydraulic systems, landing gear systems, aircraft fuel system and cockpit environmental control system etc and not available any where, can be fabricated/reverse engineered at PAC with the help French, South African or Chinese expertise but of course creating such facilities will cost money. 

As of today, PAC Kamara is fully capable to take up these ventures. Only deciding factor is availability of money and where PAF decides to spend.

Actual problem which PAF might be facing to maintain Mirage fleet is engine.

Non-availability of critical parts belonging to combustion chamber, turbine or even compressor might result in turning the engine into spares and making it ready for cannibalization.

Refer my following post (under the caption "*A cheap solution to enhance air war capacity*") where I already mentioned that SMR-95 a derivative of RD-33 can be used on Mirage III/V.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...h-9300kgf-thrust.193184/page-10#post-12027265

Options are available to maintain this fleet for a long time.

Considering the past experience, country's current economical situation and various statements of CAS and Senior Air staff officers, we can safely predict that PAF will opt to maintain these Mirages till 2030-35 (or may be less) and gradually replace them after replacing F-7s with JF-17s.


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## khanasifm

Marker said:


> It all depends on the future of Mirages in PAF.
> 
> If PAF decides to maintain Mirages for a longer time, PAC AMF has the capability to provide spares for Mirage airframe structures including major bulkheads, plumbing, electrical harnesses, hinges, brackets and actuators.
> 
> Components used in hydraulic systems, landing gear systems, aircraft fuel system and cockpit environmental control system etc and not available any where, can be fabricated/reverse engineered at PAC with the help French, South African or Chinese expertise but of course creating such facilities will cost money.
> 
> As of today, PAC Kamara is fully capable to take up these ventures. Only deciding factor is availability of money and where PAF decides to spend.
> 
> Actual problem which PAF might be facing to maintain Mirage fleet is engine.
> 
> Non-availability of critical parts belonging to combustion chamber, turbine or even compressor might result in turning the engine into spares and making it ready for cannibalization.
> 
> Refer my following post (under the caption "*A cheap solution to enhance air war capacity*") where I already mentioned that SMR-95 a derivative of RD-33 can be used on Mirage III/V.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...h-9300kgf-thrust.193184/page-10#post-12027265
> 
> Options are available to maintain this fleet for a long time.
> 
> Considering the past experience, country's current economical situation and various statements of CAS and Senior Air staff officers, we can safely predict that PAF will opt to maintain these Mirages till 2030-35 (or may be less) and gradually replace them after replacing F-7s with JF-17s.



These 50 block 3 along with 26 dual seater and 12 block 2 in 2018 will replace all f-7s p and pg ie 4.5 sqn worth of aircraft f7 s in 3 pg and 1 f7p sqn and LIFt temp f7s

Next block say 4 and 5 will replace mirages 5/6 sqn ~100/120 or so

No need to keep ccs f7 and mirage ccs sqn 

Unless a third type replaces few of mirage sqn but o doubt it after block 3

Expect jf-17 number to touch ~250 -275

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## Path-Finder

can't the engine in the mirage be replace with a decent turbofan?


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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> can't the engine in the mirage be replace with a decent turbofan?


It can.... we did already and all required plumbings is available to retrofit RM-33; it was even being offered 20 years ago.

https://www.flightglobal.com/russia/south-africa-to-offer-mirage-upgrades-/34163.article

https://www.pdsol.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/CS36_Mid-Air-Refueling-Tank-CG.pdf

This may help those trying to understand IFR and this is more or less what is onboard PAF's Mirages courtesy of Cheetah program as well as JF-17s.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> It can.... we did already and all required plumbings is available to retrofit RM-33; it was even being offered 20 years ago.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/russia/south-africa-to-offer-mirage-upgrades-/34163.article
> 
> https://www.pdsol.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/CS36_Mid-Air-Refueling-Tank-CG.pdf
> 
> This may help those trying to understand IFR and this is more or less what is onboard PAF's Mirages courtesy of Cheetah program as well as JF-17s.


Denel, seems like we keep going in circles on this particular thread. All the points have been discussed in the previous 3000 posts. 
So anyone new joining this discussion should go back to the beginning of this thread and you will have all your questions answered.

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## denel

Deltadart said:


> Denel, seems like we keep going in circles on this particular thread. All the points have been discussed in the previous 3000 posts.
> So anyone new joining this discussion should go back to the beginning of this thread and you will have all your questions answered.


Correct; these have been discussed earlier to great lengths .



Path-Finder said:


> can't the engine in the mirage be replace with a decent turbofan?


Frankly the best alternative for dedicated strike platform is Jh7 for replacement of Mirage 3. History may prove myself or my dear friend @MastanKhan who strongly believe this is much needed.

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## khanasifm

If I am not mistaken after f-16 debacle of 90s per paf book 2013 paf evaluated / tested all available options from China including f-8 not remember if Jh-7 was available and tested need to check the book again but all available mean all available but it did not meet paf requirements

End of story [emoji6]

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## denel

khanasifm said:


> If I am not mistaken after f-16 debacle of 90s per paf book 2013 paf evaluated / tested all available options from China including f-8 not remember if Jh-7 was available and tested need to check the book again but all available mean all available but it did not meet paf requirements
> 
> End of story [emoji6]


There is always a wish


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## GriffinsRule

I bought a few books to add to my collection and wanted to share a small section of it for all the Mirage lovers and our South African friend here @denel .
It also reminded me of what the Wing Commander Kaiser Tufail said in the Aircrew Interviews, when asked about PAF's performance, where all the countries that enlisted the help of our instructor pilots must have seen something in our performance viz-a-viz Indian Air Force.

Enjoy

-----
The Air Pockets
Accolades in South Africa - by Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar

In early nineties, PAF had started looking for various hitherto untapped sources of armaments and weapons; among these was South Africa with which we did not have diplomatic relations. So, I flew to London aboard a normal PIA flight, acquired a ready made South African passport and traveled to Johannesburg on the South African carrier. During the visit, I was informed one evening that the South African Air Force Chief, a Brigadier wanted me to meet him. I immediately sat down and prepared some talking points, mainly on the PAF, for visit the next day.

When I arrived at the Air Force HQ, I was received with a friendly smile from the Brigadier. After a nice cup of coffee when I began to speak about the Pakistan Air Force, the Brigadier politely interrupted, saying he knew a lot about the PAF and so did all his pilots. I was surprised and wanted to know the reason for his air force knowing the PAF so well. 

"Well you see", he spoke. "You know that we have been flying Mirages for a long time. About twenty years ago, we were involved in a war with Angola. The Angolan Air Force flew the Mig-21 Bis aircraft. We knew nothing about the tactics used by the Mig-21 Bis against the Mirages. We contacted the Americans and sent us their manual on fighting the Mig-21 Bis. Then we talked to the Israelis and they gave us a handwritten manual - titled, 'How a Mig-21 Bis ought to fight a Mirage'. It was authored by some unknown Pakistani pilot serving in Egypt for Syria. The write-up somehow fell into the hands of the Mossad, was handed over to the Israeli Air Force that adapted it in their fighter squadrons and they gave it to us. We also found it most useful and our pilots developed fighter tactics accordingly. . "You see, we know about your air force and pilots already". I felt tremendous joy at this compliment paid to an unknown colleague and to the Pakistan Air Force in that corner of the world. 

The coffee had never tasted more delicious!
-------

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## PakFactor

GriffinsRule said:


> I bought a few books to add to my collection and wanted to share a small section of it for all the Mirage lovers and our South African friend here @denel .
> It also reminded me of what the Wing Commander Kaiser Tufail said in the Aircrew Interviews, when asked about PAF's performance, where all the countries that enlisted the help of our instructor pilots must have seen something in our performance viz-a-viz Indian Air Force.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> -----
> The Air Pockets
> Accolades in South Africa - by Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar
> 
> In early nineties, PAF had started looking for various hitherto untapped sources of armaments and weapons; among these was South Africa with which we did not have diplomatic relations. So, I flew to London aboard a normal PIA flight, acquired a ready made South African passport and traveled to Johannesburg on the South African carrier. During the visit, I was informed one evening that the South African Air Force Chief, a Brigadier wanted me to meet him. I immediately sat down and prepared some talking points, mainly on the PAF, for visit the next day.
> 
> When I arrived at the Air Force HQ, I was received with a friendly smile from the Brigadier. After a nice cup of coffee when I began to speak about the Pakistan Air Force, the Brigadier politely interrupted, saying he knew a lot about the PAF and so did all his pilots. I was surprised and wanted to know the reason for his air force knowing the PAF so well.
> 
> "Well you see", he spoke. "You know that we have been flying Mirages for a long time. About twenty years ago, we were involved in a war with Angola. The Angolan Air Force flew the Mig-21 Bis aircraft. We knew nothing about the tactics used by the Mig-21 Bis against the Mirages. We contacted the Americans and sent us their manual on fighting the Mig-21 Bis. Then we talked to the Israelis and they gave us a handwritten manual - titled, 'How a Mig-21 Bis ought to fight a Mirage'. It was authored by some unknown Pakistani pilot serving in Egypt for Syria. The write-up somehow fell into the hands of the Mossad, was handed over to the Israeli Air Force that adapted it in their fighter squadrons and they gave it to us. We also found it most useful and our pilots developed fighter tactics accordingly. . "You see, we know about your air force and pilots already". I felt tremendous joy at this compliment paid to an unknown colleague and to the Pakistan Air Force in that corner of the world.
> 
> The coffee had never tasted more delicious!
> -------



This gave me a big smile, proud to be a Pakistani. The potential in our people is amazing we’re respected at least in the professional eyes of people defense related. Thank you sharing!

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## Marker

GriffinsRule said:


> I bought a few books to add to my collection and wanted to share a small section of it for all the Mirage lovers and our South African friend here @denel .
> It also reminded me of what the Wing Commander Kaiser Tufail said in the Aircrew Interviews, when asked about PAF's performance, where all the countries that enlisted the help of our instructor pilots must have seen something in our performance viz-a-viz Indian Air Force.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> -----
> The Air Pockets
> Accolades in South Africa - by Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar
> 
> In early nineties, PAF had started looking for various hitherto untapped sources of armaments and weapons; among these was South Africa with which we did not have diplomatic relations. So, I flew to London aboard a normal PIA flight, acquired a ready made South African passport and traveled to Johannesburg on the South African carrier. During the visit, I was informed one evening that the South African Air Force Chief, a Brigadier wanted me to meet him. I immediately sat down and prepared some talking points, mainly on the PAF, for visit the next day.
> 
> When I arrived at the Air Force HQ, I was received with a friendly smile from the Brigadier. After a nice cup of coffee when I began to speak about the Pakistan Air Force, the Brigadier politely interrupted, saying he knew a lot about the PAF and so did all his pilots. I was surprised and wanted to know the reason for his air force knowing the PAF so well.
> 
> "Well you see", he spoke. "You know that we have been flying Mirages for a long time. About twenty years ago, we were involved in a war with Angola. The Angolan Air Force flew the Mig-21 Bis aircraft. We knew nothing about the tactics used by the Mig-21 Bis against the Mirages. We contacted the Americans and sent us their manual on fighting the Mig-21 Bis. Then we talked to the Israelis and they gave us a handwritten manual - titled, 'How a Mig-21 Bis ought to fight a Mirage'. It was authored by some unknown Pakistani pilot serving in Egypt for Syria. The write-up somehow fell into the hands of the Mossad, was handed over to the Israeli Air Force that adapted it in their fighter squadrons and they gave it to us. We also found it most useful and our pilots developed fighter tactics accordingly. . "You see, we know about your air force and pilots already". I felt tremendous joy at this compliment paid to an unknown colleague and to the Pakistan Air Force in that corner of the world.
> 
> The coffee had never tasted more delicious!
> -------



Thanks for sharing. A nice piece of writing by AM Najeeb Akhter.


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## Marker

*Rational Approach for PAF to Upgrade its Fleet*

Upgrading and refurbishing an existing aircraft fleet is far cheaper option then procuring a new aircraft system from China or France or any other country willing to export such systems to Pakistan.

The cost of inducting a new aircraft system do not only comprises cost of aircraft, but also cost of logistic support including first, second and third line maintenance facilities.

Therefore, inducting Mirage 2000 or Jh-7 or J-10 is never a viable course for PAF.

Rational approach for PAF is to expeditiously induct JF-17 Block III say 80 to 100 aircraft. Till then PAF should continue operating the Mirages while upgrading JF-17 Block I and IIs.

PAF should also focus on establishing in-country manufacturing facilities for avionics/electronics, jet engines, and aircraft /airframe with the support of sincere and serious local investors and vendors and foreign collaborators.

PAF is already involved in a very ambitious R&D project named “AZM”. But its success depends on the availability of appropriate infrastructure (as mentioned above) needed for the project completion.

Meanwhile PAF can collaborate with Chinese counterparts to design and manufacture another derivative of JF-17, a medium weight multi-role platform having twin engines with TVN, minimum RCS (near stealth capability), FBO flight controls, super cruise, higher pay load capacity, very high service ceiling say 65000 to 70000 ft and about 3000 to 3500 kms combat range, state of the art EW, ECM and radar package.

The experience gained during designing, manufacturing, integrating and operating this derivative will help to develop a formidable stealth air platform.

PAF should also divert its resources to continuously develop and acquire anti-stealth technologies and integrate these into existing air platforms.


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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Frankly the best alternative for dedicated strike platform is Jh7 for replacement of Mirage 3. History may prove myself or my dear friend @MastanKhan who strongly believe this is much needed.


JH-7 is not better than Panavia Tornado, if I am wrong then correct me. So It might be better to get retired Panavia Tornado instead!

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## aliyusuf

Path-Finder said:


> JH-7 is not better than Panavia Tornado, if I am wrong then correct me. So It might be better to get retired Panavia Tornado instead!


Doubt if the US won't use it's influence with the UK to scuttle such a deal. Tornado's were the best supersonic under the radar low-level flying strike planes of it's time. They could even be totally modified with Chinese avionics and weapons ... as it is very doubtful that top end western munitions will be allowed anymore.


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## Path-Finder

aliyusuf said:


> Doubt if the US won't use it's influence with the UK to scuttle such a deal. Tornado's were the best at supersonic under the radar low-level flying strike planes of it's time. They could even be totally modified with Chinese avionics and weapons ... as it is very doubtful that top end western munitions will be allowed anymore.


The plane is maintenance heavy and costly to operate, but what made it viable was the Euro consortium and the users which allowed it to fly for as long as it did. It is a very successful platform with its impressive operational history. But PAF is not interested in such planes for reasons not openly known. The fact that this plane is being retired now as the role it fulfilled is not optimal in the present and future battlefield.


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## aliyusuf

Path-Finder said:


> The plane is maintenance heavy and costly to operate, but what made it viable was the Euro consortium and the users which allowed it to fly for as long as it did. It is a very successful platform with its impressive operational history. But PAF is not interested in such planes for reasons not openly known. The fact that this plane is being retired now as the role it fulfilled is not optimal in the present and future battlefield.


Until acquisition of LO/VLO (stealth) or low RCS planes like Eurofighter, Rafale or SuperHornet is possible (not all air forces them), something like the Tornado may still be contemporary in our theater of war for a foreseeable future.


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## Marker

denel said:


> Correct; these have been discussed earlier to great lengths .
> 
> 
> Frankly the best alternative for dedicated strike platform is Jh7 for replacement of Mirage 3. History may prove myself or my dear friend @MastanKhan who strongly believe this is much needed.



*Performance and Capacity Comparison JF-17 vs JH-7 vs Mirage*

Crew: *JF-17 – 1 pilot*
JH-7 – 2 pilots
*Mirage – 1 pilot *

Payload: JF-17 – 1,542 kg (3,400 lb) external stores
*JH-7 – 9000 kg (20000 lb) external stores*
Mirage – 4000 kg

Powerplant: *JF-17 – 1 × Klimov RD-93 afterburning turbofan*
JH-7 – 2 × Xian WS-9 Qinling turbofan engines
Mirage – 1 × SNECMA Atar 9C afterburning turbojet

Max speed: JF-17 – Mach 1.6 to 1.8
JH-7 – Mach 1.52
*Mirage – Mach 2.0*

Combat range: *JF-17 – 1350 kms*
JH-7 – 900 kms (without in-flight refueling) 1760 kms (with in-flight refueling)
Mirage – 1,250 kms

Hard points: JF-17 – 7 + 1 (Block 3)
*JH-7 – 9*
Mirage – 5

Above comparison data clearly reveals that JH-7 can carry substantial payload on its external hard points but its range is least about 900 kms! So *PAF cannot use JH-7 as its deep strike aircraft*.


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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> I bought a few books to add to my collection and wanted to share a small section of it for all the Mirage lovers and our South African friend here @denel .
> It also reminded me of what the Wing Commander Kaiser Tufail said in the Aircrew Interviews, when asked about PAF's performance, where all the countries that enlisted the help of our instructor pilots must have seen something in our performance viz-a-viz Indian Air Force.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> -----
> The Air Pockets
> Accolades in South Africa - by Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar
> 
> In early nineties, PAF had started looking for various hitherto untapped sources of armaments and weapons; among these was South Africa with which we did not have diplomatic relations. So, I flew to London aboard a normal PIA flight, acquired a ready made South African passport and traveled to Johannesburg on the South African carrier. During the visit, I was informed one evening that the South African Air Force Chief, a Brigadier wanted me to meet him. I immediately sat down and prepared some talking points, mainly on the PAF, for visit the next day.
> 
> When I arrived at the Air Force HQ, I was received with a friendly smile from the Brigadier. After a nice cup of coffee when I began to speak about the Pakistan Air Force, the Brigadier politely interrupted, saying he knew a lot about the PAF and so did all his pilots. I was surprised and wanted to know the reason for his air force knowing the PAF so well.
> 
> "Well you see", he spoke. "You know that we have been flying Mirages for a long time. About twenty years ago, we were involved in a war with Angola. The Angolan Air Force flew the Mig-21 Bis aircraft. We knew nothing about the tactics used by the Mig-21 Bis against the Mirages. We contacted the Americans and sent us their manual on fighting the Mig-21 Bis. Then we talked to the Israelis and they gave us a handwritten manual - titled, 'How a Mig-21 Bis ought to fight a Mirage'. It was authored by some unknown Pakistani pilot serving in Egypt for Syria. The write-up somehow fell into the hands of the Mossad, was handed over to the Israeli Air Force that adapted it in their fighter squadrons and they gave it to us. We also found it most useful and our pilots developed fighter tactics accordingly. . "You see, we know about your air force and pilots already". I felt tremendous joy at this compliment paid to an unknown colleague and to the Pakistan Air Force in that corner of the world.
> 
> The coffee had never tasted more delicious!
> -------



That is an actual fact; we had paid attention to PAF and IAF in their use of Mirages; PAF in particular as they had experience with Mig21 vs Mirage 3.

One correction to this article.... he could not gotten a RSA passport as that is illegal; this was a bar coded visa that was pasted on his Pak passport and could be removed as needed.



Marker said:


> *Performance and Capacity Comparison JF-17 vs JH-7 vs Mirage*
> 
> Crew: *JF-17 – 1 pilot*
> JH-7 – 2 pilots
> *Mirage – 1 pilot *
> 
> Payload: JF-17 – 1,542 kg (3,400 lb) external stores
> *JH-7 – 9000 kg (20000 lb) external stores*
> Mirage – 4000 kg
> 
> Powerplant: *JF-17 – 1 × Klimov RD-93 afterburning turbofan*
> JH-7 – 2 × Xian WS-9 Qinling turbofan engines
> Mirage – 1 × SNECMA Atar 9C afterburning turbojet
> 
> Max speed: JF-17 – Mach 1.6 to 1.8
> JH-7 – Mach 1.52
> *Mirage – Mach 2.0*
> 
> Combat range: *JF-17 – 1350 kms*
> JH-7 – 900 kms (without in-flight refueling) 1760 kms (with in-flight refueling)
> Mirage – 1,250 kms
> 
> Hard points: JF-17 – 7 + 1 (Block 3)
> *JH-7 – 9*
> Mirage – 5
> 
> Above comparison data clearly reveals that JH-7 can carry substantial payload on its external hard points but its range is least about 900 kms! So *PAF cannot use JH-7 as its deep strike aircraft*.



Please recheck your numbers friend. Mirages M2.0+ is only at a burst and not sustained; it is always below 1.2 - Atar turbojets are much fuel hungry vs the Spey turbofans that are on JH7.. Range varies as per payload as well; so basic maths there.

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## Marker

denel said:


> Please recheck your numbers friend. Mirages M2.0+ is only at a burst and not sustained; it is always below 1.2 - Atar turbojets are much fuel hungry vs the Spey turbofans that are on JH7.. Range varies as per payload as well; so basic maths there.



Please refer the following:
https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-iii/
https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-5/
According to them, the max speed for Mirage III/V is Mach 2.0. You are right that *max speed* is not a sustained speed.

Mirage III/V is powered by a *single* turbojet engine (French) whereas JH-7 is powered by *two* turbofan engines (a Chinese copy of Rolls Royce Spey engine). Hence it is logical that overall fuel consumption per km of JH-7 will be higher than Mirage.

Yes, range will vary according to the payload and its aerodynamics. However, combat ranges are given not for max payload. 900 kms is very less for deep strike missions. Though the combat range of JH-7 can be extended to 1760 km with aerial refueling but considering the depth of Pakistani airspace and location of various airbases, in-flight refueling will not be easy for first few days of the conflict. Hence cost:opportunity ratio is more tilted towards cost.


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## LKJ86

Marker said:


> Yes, range will vary according to the payload and its aerodynamics. However, combat ranges are given not for max payload. 900 kms is very less for deep strike missions. Though the combat range of JH-7 can be extended to 1760 km with aerial refueling but considering the depth of Pakistani airspace and location of various airbases, in-flight refueling will not be easy for first few days of the conflict. Hence cost:opportunity ratio is more tilted towards cost.


900km? Are you seriously?
Do you think JH-7 or JH-7A has the in-flight refuelling capability?


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## Marker

LKJ86 said:


> 900km? Are you seriously?
> Do you think JH-7 or JH-7A has the in-flight refuelling capability?



Please refer wikipedia for complete specs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an_JH-7

and also Global Security
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/jh-7-specs.htm


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## denel

Marker said:


> Please refer the following:
> https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-iii/
> https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-5/
> According to them, the max speed for Mirage III/V is Mach 2.0. You are right that *max speed* is not a sustained speed.
> 
> Mirage III/V is powered by a *single* turbojet engine (French) whereas JH-7 is powered by *two* turbofan engines (a Chinese copy of Rolls Royce Spey engine). Hence it is logical that overall fuel consumption per km of JH-7 will be higher than Mirage.
> 
> Yes, range will vary according to the payload and its aerodynamics. However, combat ranges are given not for max payload. 900 kms is very less for deep strike missions. Though the combat range of JH-7 can be extended to 1760 km with aerial refueling but considering the depth of Pakistani airspace and location of various airbases, in-flight refueling will not be easy for first few days of the conflict. Hence cost:opportunity ratio is more tilted towards cost.



Turbofans consume less vs turbojets; plus jh7 carries more fuel.



Path-Finder said:


> JH-7 is not better than Panavia Tornado, if I am wrong then correct me. So It might be better to get retired Panavia Tornado instead!


oh no... tornado is a pig to maintain. the last best british jet was the buccaneer/hunter.


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## LKJ86

Marker said:


> Please refer wikipedia for complete specs.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an_JH-7
> 
> and also Global Security
> https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/jh-7-specs.htm


Can you explain this:






And as we know, JH-7 and JH-7A don't have the in-flight refuelling capability, but why this:

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## Marker

LKJ86 said:


> Can you explain this:
> View attachment 605205
> 
> 
> And as we know, JH-7 and JH-7A doesn't have the in-flight refuelling capability, but why this:
> View attachment 605206



Combat radius is the maximum "safe" distance an aircraft can fly in a mission dependent flight profile, completes its mission and returns back to its base.

Transition voyage or ferry distance is the maximum distance an aircraft can fly from one destination to another.

Combat radius cannot be half of ferry distance due to its flight profile. Type and weight of payload and throttle settings variation causes more fuel to consume.

Whereas in transition voyage, the distance is given for minimum aircraft configuration (payload) and its flight profile is set to cruise speed.


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## LKJ86

Marker said:


> Combat radius is the maximum "safe" distance an aircraft can fly in a mission dependent flight profile, completes its mission and returns back to its base.
> 
> Transition voyage or ferry distance is the maximum distance an aircraft can fly from one destination to another.
> 
> Combat radius cannot be half of ferry distance due to its flight profile. Type and weight of payload and throttle settings variation causes more fuel to consume.
> 
> Whereas in transition voyage, the distance is given for minimum aircraft configuration (payload) and its flight profile is set to cruise speed.


There are some official information from AVIC. But according to tradition, its parameters are always underestimated.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> There are some official information from AVIC. But according to tradition, its parameters are always underestimated.
> View attachment 605208
> View attachment 605209


So is AVIC going to manufacture new JH-7Es for exports, or would it use PLAAF/PLAN stocks?

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## bananarepublic

Imagine what the PAF could do with a bomb truck like this..
All those munitions and its light year jump from our Mirage's.
I am sure that PAF could adopt it as a stopgap and the Chinese would easily give us favourable terms.

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## Marker

LKJ86 said:


> And as we know, JH-7 and JH-7A don't have the in-flight refuelling capability, but why this:
> View attachment 605206



The only reference which I could find is as follows:
http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/12/jh-7b-flying-leopard-fighter-bomber.html#.XkQi7DEzbIU
Under the caption JH-7B, the author states that the new JH-7B added aerial refuel capabilities which greatly increases its combat radius. However new pictures of the JH-7B shows no changes of such nature.

Although wikipedia specs data mentions combat radius after in-flight refueling capability JH-7, but I could not find any JH-7 photo showing IFR probe to support it.


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## LKJ86

Marker said:


> The only reference which I could find is as follows:
> http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/12/jh-7b-flying-leopard-fighter-bomber.html#.XkQi7DEzbIU
> Under the caption JH-7B, the author states that the new JH-7B added aerial refuel capabilities which greatly increases its combat radius. However new pictures of the JH-7B shows no changes of such nature.
> 
> Although wikipedia specs data mentions combat radius after in-flight refueling capability JH-7, but I could not find any JH-7 photo showing IFR probe to support it.


JH-7B was designed to carry two YJ-12 AShMs, but it lost the competition with J-16. So, only about two prototypes of JH-7B were built.


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## Zephyrus

Umm hi, the only thing that makes the mirages deadly is the amount of RnD and mission specific systems that PAF has invested in them, you can not retire a platform that you haven't been able to replace for more than half a century, to be honest mirages fill a niche that can not be filled by any other aircraft. The JH7, PANAVIA TORNADO and other such aircraft might be easy to acquire but the problem is that they don't favor your doctrine as much as the mirage can, the best option is to redesign the mirage from the ground up with carbon fiber and newage materials, an uprated engine and newer weapons.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Zephyrus said:


> Umm hi, the only thing that makes the mirages deadly is the amount of RnD and mission specific systems that PAF has invested in them, you can not retire a platform that you haven't been able to replace for more than half a century, to be honest mirages fill a niche that can not be filled by any other aircraft. The JH7, PANAVIA TORNADO and other such aircraft might be easy to acquire but the problem is that they don't favor your doctrine as much as the mirage can, the best option is to redesign the mirage from the ground up with carbon fiber and newage materials, an uprated engine and newer weapons.


Why can't u make JF 17 as a precise strike fighter? Modify it to increase its Payload and Ground Clearance


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## LKJ86

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So is AVIC going to manufacture new JH-7Es for exports, or would it use PLAAF/PLAN stocks?


XAC, the manufacturer of JH-7, H-6, and Y-20, of course wants to make new JH-7Es for exports, as CAC and SAC have a monopolist’s grip on China's fighter market.

XAC repaired the damaged JH-7 outside the factory in 2019:

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## denel

Marker said:


> Please refer wikipedia for complete specs.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an_JH-7
> 
> and also Global Security
> https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/jh-7-specs.htm


May I ask, how much a


Zephyrus said:


> Umm hi, the only thing that makes the mirages deadly is the amount of RnD and mission specific systems that PAF has invested in them, you can not retire a platform that you haven't been able to replace for more than half a century, to be honest mirages fill a niche that can not be filled by any other aircraft. The JH7, PANAVIA TORNADO and other such aircraft might be easy to acquire but the problem is that they don't favor your doctrine as much as the mirage can, the best option is to redesign the mirage from the ground up with carbon fiber and newage materials, an uprated engine and newer weapons.


Already Mirage ROSe platform is hopelessly out of date even in terms of the upgrades. Only way as you note is to rework it as a Cheetah or what ever you may call it. Alternatively get jh-7 for the deep strike component

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## PakFactor

denel said:


> May I ask, how much a
> 
> Already Mirage ROSe platform is hopelessly out of date even in terms of the upgrades. Only way as you note is to rework it as a Cheetah or what ever you may call it. Alternatively get jh-7 for the deep strike component



Might as well go for the J-16 for deep strike to replace the Mirages. This is a task for twin engine fighters speed will be needed to get out of zone after dropping the load.


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## LKJ86

PakFactor said:


> Might as well go for the J-16 for deep strike to replace the Mirages. This is a task for twin engine fighters speed will be needed to get out of zone after dropping the load.


Why not wait for the dual-seat version of J-20.


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## denel

PakFactor said:


> Might as well go for the J-16 for deep strike to replace the Mirages. This is a task for twin engine fighters speed will be needed to get out of zone after dropping the load.


Even mirages are now carriers for H2/H4 or other standoff; overhead deliver is no longer in play for this platform or jf-7s.

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## PakFactor

LKJ86 said:


> Why not wait for the dual-seat version of J-20.



Don’t think China would sell that to PAF.


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> JH-7B was designed to carry two YJ-12 AShMs, but it lost the competition with J-16. So, only about two prototypes of JH-7B were built.


JH-7B







Via 走进哈佛



PakFactor said:


> Don’t think China would sell that to PAF.


China would want to sell J-20 to PAF, but it is not the right time now:
1. J-20 is very expensive now.
2. J-20 is still in development, but PAF prefers mature ones.
3. The number of J-20 still can't satisfy the needs of PLAAF and PLAN in a relative long period.

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## Path-Finder

GriffinsRule said:


> I bought a few books to add to my collection and wanted to share a small section of it for all the Mirage lovers and our South African friend here @denel .
> It also reminded me of what the Wing Commander Kaiser Tufail said in the Aircrew Interviews, when asked about PAF's performance, where all the countries that enlisted the help of our instructor pilots must have seen something in our performance viz-a-viz Indian Air Force.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> -----
> The Air Pockets
> Accolades in South Africa - by Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar
> 
> In early nineties, PAF had started looking for various hitherto untapped sources of armaments and weapons; among these was South Africa with which we did not have diplomatic relations. So, I flew to London aboard a normal PIA flight, acquired a ready made South African passport and traveled to Johannesburg on the South African carrier. During the visit, I was informed one evening that the South African Air Force Chief, a Brigadier wanted me to meet him. I immediately sat down and prepared some talking points, mainly on the PAF, for visit the next day.
> 
> When I arrived at the Air Force HQ, I was received with a friendly smile from the Brigadier. After a nice cup of coffee when I began to speak about the Pakistan Air Force, the Brigadier politely interrupted, saying he knew a lot about the PAF and so did all his pilots. I was surprised and wanted to know the reason for his air force knowing the PAF so well.
> 
> "Well you see", he spoke. "You know that we have been flying Mirages for a long time. About twenty years ago, we were involved in a war with Angola. The Angolan Air Force flew the Mig-21 Bis aircraft. We knew nothing about the tactics used by the Mig-21 Bis against the Mirages. We contacted the Americans and sent us their manual on fighting the Mig-21 Bis. Then we talked to the Israelis and they gave us a handwritten manual - titled, 'How a Mig-21 Bis ought to fight a Mirage'. It was authored by some unknown Pakistani pilot serving in Egypt for Syria. The write-up somehow fell into the hands of the Mossad, was handed over to the Israeli Air Force that adapted it in their fighter squadrons and they gave it to us. We also found it most useful and our pilots developed fighter tactics accordingly. . "You see, we know about your air force and pilots already". I felt tremendous joy at this compliment paid to an unknown colleague and to the Pakistan Air Force in that corner of the world.
> 
> The coffee had never tasted more delicious!
> -------



another thing I learned is that SA was using drones for surveillance in the bush wars with angola and a tactic was devised by depleting the angolan SAM's using the seeker 200 drones before sending in the air cavalry.


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## Marker

denel said:


> Turbofans consume less vs turbojets.



*Specific fuel consumption*:

*SNECMA Atar 9C*

103 kg/(kN·h) 28.6g/(kN⋅s) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power
207 kg/(kN·h) 57.5 g/(kN⋅s) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner

*Rolls-Royce Spey Mk 202*

0.63 lb/(lbf·h) at military thrust
1.95 lb/(lbf·h) with afterburner

*Total SFC for single turbojet engine of Mirage*

Military Power: 1.01 lb/(lbf·h)
With Afterburner: 2.03 lb/(lbf·h)

*Total SFC for two turbofan engines of JH-7*

Military Power: 2 x 0.63 lb/(lbf·h) = 1.26 lb/(lbf·h)
With Afterburner: 2 x 1.95 lb/(lbf·h) = 3.9 lb/(lbf·h)

The above data clearly shows that *overall* specific fuel consumption is higher for JH-7 (25% higher at mil and 109% higher with afterburner).



denel said:


> plus jh7 carries more fuel.


*General characteristics

JH-7*

Length: 22.32 m (73 ft 3 in); Length excl probe: 21.00 m (68 ft 10.75 in)
Wingspan: 12.8 m (42 ft 0 in)
Height: 6.22 m (20 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 42.2 m^2 (454 sq ft)
Empty weight: 14,500 kg (31,967 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 28,475 kg (62,777 lb)
Engine Thrust: *2 x (*54.29 kN (12,200 lbf) thrust each dry, 91.26 kN (20,520 lbf) with afterburner*)*

*Mirage V*

Length: 15.55 m (51 ft 0 in)
Wingspan: 8.22 m (27 ft 0 in)
Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 35 m^2 (380 sq ft)
Empty weight: 7,150 kg (15,763 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 13,700 kg (30,203 lb)
Engine Thrust: 41.97 kN (9,440 lbf) thrust dry, 60.8 kN (13,700 lbf) with afterburner

*SNECMA Atar 9C*

Length: 5,900 mm (232 in)
Diameter: 1,000 mm (39 in)

*Rolls-Royce Spey Mk 202*

Length: 204.9 in (5204.4 mm)
Diameter: 43.0 in (1092.2 mm)

*Total fuel capacity estimation:*

Although JH-7 fuselage length is about 6 m more than Mirage fuselage, but it has tandem cockpit.
However, since JH-7 houses two engines, it will be wider than Mirage fuselage (approximately 1.5:1 ratio).
Considering both factors, we can safely assume that fuel capacity of JH-7 fuselage is 50% more than Mirage fuselage.

Moreover, wing area of JH-7 is about 7 m^2 more than the wing area of Mirage. Hence, fuel capacity of JH-7 wing is approximately 20% more than Mirage wing.

Fuel capacity of JH-7 is 50-60% higher than Mirage.

Aerodynamics and weight are other two important factors which increase the fuel consumption. JH-7 is lacking in both of these factors.

Summing up the above conclusions, though JH-7 can carry 9000 kg payload, but its combat range is less, hence not suitable for deep strike missions. 

PLAAF inducted JH-7 for CAS role only as they knew that it lacks air to air proficiency.
However, China is aggressively pursuing export of this aircraft (JH-7E) to other countries. 

Furthermore, recent past trend and scrutiny of various statements of senior staff officers reveal that PAF is interested in inducting multi-role fighters. After light multi-role aircraft (JF-17), PAF will seek for medium weight multi-role aircraft either in the form of "Project Azm" or twin engine derivative of JF-17.


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## TsAr

@Marker Can we please keep this thread only for Mirages, this comparison thing with Jh-7 and etc needs to stop, we have a separate thread for JH-7 take your discussion there. @The Eagle can you please clean the thread.

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## Marker

TsAr said:


> @Marker Can we please keep this thread only for Mirages, this comparison thing with Jh-7 and etc needs to stop, we have a separate thread for JH-7 take your discussion there. @The Eagle can you please clean the thread.



The only reason for comparing specs of JH-7 with Mirages was that JH-7 cannot be a feasible option for PAF as replacement of "old" Mirage fleet.


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## Talon



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## TsAr

Hodor said:


> View attachment 605488


lashkaray marta huwa.....looks like new paint

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## jupiter2007

Old planes are crashing like no tomorrow. We need to replace them as soon as possible but we don’t have the budget for that.

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## Myth_buster_1

Marker said:


> The only reason for comparing specs of JH-7 with Mirages was that JH-7 cannot be a feasible option for PAF as replacement of "old" Mirage fleet.



Even if JH-7 is slower it still wont make much of a difference since eastern territory is heavily protected with advance AD. What is required is a heavily modified platform with electronic warfare capability and JH-7 being a bigger frame might be a suitable option.

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## GriffinsRule

The reason JH-7 or any other off the shelf new aircraft cant replace the Mirages is simple ... MRF.

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## Sulemanms202

very effective bird given our thin budget when you consider platform makes available customization to carry payload other than of manufacturing country. 

reason to have such an aircraft is to jade enemy's offensive capability once runways, asset availability number dwindle than you can counter attack

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## denel

GriffinsRule said:


> The reason JH-7 or any other off the shelf new aircraft cant replace the Mirages is simple ... MRF.


Brings us back.... Cheetah upgrade.

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## Dazzler

denel said:


> Brings us back.... Cheetah upgrade.



For a delta lover

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## khanasifm



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## denel

Dazzler said:


> For a delta lover


can you imagine these all in Cheetah format. it will cause massive heart arrests.

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## Cookie Monster

denel said:


> can you imagine these all in Cheetah format. it will cause massive heart arrests.


Is the cheetah program still active? I know Pak is spread thin with all the other acquisitions and the economy being sluggish doesn't help...but I assume there would still be a need for some delta aircraft to replace the aging Mirages.

...if there's substantial life left in the airframes then there might be an upgrade...if not then they will probably be replaced with some other aircraft.


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## CHI RULES

What happened with 30+ Mirage Horus described to be almost equivalent to Mirage 2000, and were reported to be delivered from Egypt in 2019.

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## Tipu7

CHI RULES said:


> What happened with 30+ Mirage Horus described to be almost equivalent to Mirage 2000, and were reported to be delivered from Egypt in 2019.


On hold. The deal struck due to pricing issue. 
And Mirage Horus is not equivalent of Mirage 2000.

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## denel

Cookie Monster said:


> Is the cheetah program still active? I know Pak is spread thin with all the other acquisitions and the economy being sluggish doesn't help...but I assume there would still be a need for some delta aircraft to replace the aging Mirages.
> 
> ...if there's substantial life left in the airframes then there might be an upgrade...if not then they will probably be replaced with some other aircraft.


All plans and jigs are still there....


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## Pakistani Fighter

denel said:


> All plans and jigs are still there....


They are old plateforms. It is not feasible to Upgrade them niw


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## denel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> They are old plateforms. It is not feasible to Upgrade them niw


yes. what i mean to say is you need zero hr airframes which this provides you with and it is not that difficult to put around 30-50 through a conversion process; i dont see these M3/5 retiring up to 2035 or more at this rate;


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## Maxpane

denel said:


> yes. what i mean to say is you need zero hr airframes which this provides you with and it is not that difficult to put around 30-50 through a conversion process; i dont see these M3/5 retiring up to 2035 or more at this rate;


Hope PAF look at cheetah upgrade

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## Incog_nito

PAF should start thinking about other options to replace those Mirages.

1. 50+ J-10Cs
2. 50+ EF-2000s

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## denel

IM Ozair said:


> PAF should start thinking about other options to replace those Mirages.
> 
> 1. 50+ J-10Cs
> 2. 50+ EF-2000s


or upgraded JH-7s. Those will be specifically for low level deep strike weapons carriers.

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## Nomad40

denel said:


> or upgraded JH-7s. Those will be specifically for low level deep strike weapons carriers.


Kamakaze JH-7 squadron, anti ship and deep precision strike. I had pointed out before PAF wil never be able to outnumber its enemy or even match them in numbers but PAF sure does scare the living day light out of Indians (I would know).

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## khanasifm

Jh-7 folks please take your love affair to thread for Jh-7 this is mirage thread

Thank you [emoji120]

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## araz

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Kamakaze JH-7 squadron, anti ship and deep precision strike. I had pointed out before PAF wil never be able to outnumber its enemy or even match them in numbers but PAF sure does scare the living day light out of Indians (I would know).


What are your thoughts about reengining and upgrading the M3/5s to maintain 2- 3 squadrons for specific roles. Is it doable and FINANCIALLY viable? The engine being RD 93 and upgrades along the cheetah lines with KLJ7A radar.
A


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## Ultima Thule

araz said:


> What are your thoughts about reengining and upgrading the M3/5s to maintain 2- 3 squadrons for specific roles. Is it doable and FINANCIALLY viable? The engine being RD 93 and upgrades along the cheetah lines with KLJ7A radar.
> A


Yes it doable sir and financially sound but instead RD-93 why not we will use WS-13 and how about LFK-601 instead of KLJ-7A because if we will try to fit KLJ-7A in our Mirages we need a modification of its nose cone on the other hand LFK-601 doesn't need to modify the nosecone of our Mirages, another problem is age fuselage is over to our Mirages, just my 2 cent sir


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## Nomad40

araz said:


> What are your thoughts about reengining and upgrading the M3/5s to maintain 2- 3 squadrons for specific roles. Is it doable and FINANCIALLY viable? The engine being RD 93 and upgrades along the cheetah lines with KLJ7A radar.
> A


( Caution I am a very lazy person and i will miss some details )

As one can interpret from my name I really really love mirages and It is my utmost desired aircraft operated by the Pakistan air force and I have many many memories associated with Mirage (good and bad) 

The first thing i would like to address is the engine, assuming we all know that the mirage type 3/5 are immensely *under powered* and complimented with a horrid *aspect ratio* just makes it much more difficult to employ the air craft in battle 

the snecma atar type turbojet and the rd-93 type turbofan are worlds apart from the core

the snecma (turbo jet) has a sleeker but longer physical profile and the rd 93 is a bulkier but shorter (turbo fan) so it is impossible to interchange the Power plant .

The mirage 3/5 types are heavily upgraded as they are today and are being used for roles they were not intended for and pouring more money into it will be useless in my opinion, think of it in this way ( buying an old mehran upgrading to 22 inch tires, 333 hp Engine, bose sound systems, removing seats and installing a box tank for extra fuel, fitting touchscreen on the dash, getting premium of road GX shock absorbers suspensions, heating element and massage cushion for seat bla bla bla bla) you get the point right? Or you can just buy a lexus lx570 it will cost you a tad more but more comfortable for the driver and easy to use and most importantly safe

To spend more cash on mr crash is not a good idea I can talk a-lot on my baby but it would be much better to replace them (the air frames are getting older and they need a new home called museums) or I can just buy a few 

FOR LOW LEVEL STRIKE THE MIRAGE IS VERY VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AND THE STRESSES ARE IMMENSE ON THE AIR FRAME. 

doing such major upgrades on an air frame that old will give you lots of issues, challenges and heavy heavy testing will be required to test the air craft if every thing but mirage being such an* unforgiving* air craft I would not want it to fly in today's battle air space to fight the enemy. but make no mistake it can impair you and disable you on the ground but there are platforms that can do it in a bigger number with fewer air craft. 


So let me answer your question is it doable......................(NO)..reason (heavy RND, heavy testing, air frame limit, design limit)
Is it Viable....................(NO)....(much better options to the same job on a heavier scale)



seven0seven said:


> Yes it doable sir and financially sound but instead RD-93 why not we will use WS-13 and how about LFK-601 instead of KLJ-7A because if we will try to fit KLJ-7A in our Mirages we need a modification of its nose cone on the other hand LFK-601 doesn't need to modify the nosecone of our Mirages, another problem is age fuselage is over to our Mirages, just my 2 cent sir


I like your enthusiasm

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> ( Caution I am a very lazy person and i will miss some details )
> 
> As one can interpret from my name I really really love mirages and It is my utmost desired aircraft operated by the Pakistan air force and I have many many memories associated with Mirage (good and bad)
> 
> The first thing i would like to address is the engine, assuming we all know that the mirage type 3/5 are immensely *under powered* and complimented with a horrid *aspect ratio* just makes it much more difficult to employ the air craft in battle
> 
> the snecma atar type turbojet and the rd-93 type turbofan are worlds apart from the core
> 
> the snecma (turbo jet) has a sleeker but longer physical profile and the rd 93 is a bulkier but shorter (turbo fan) so it is impossible to interchange the Power plant .
> 
> The mirage 3/5 types are heavily upgraded as they are today and are being used for roles they were not intended for and pouring more money into it will be useless in my opinion, think of it in this way ( buying an old mehran upgrading to 22 inch tires, 333 hp Engine, bose sound systems, removing seats and installing a box tank for extra fuel, fitting touchscreen on the dash, getting premium of road GX shock absorbers suspensions, heating element and massage cushion for seat bla bla bla bla) you get the point right? Or you can just buy a lexus lx570 it will cost you a tad more but more comfortable for the driver and easy to use and most importantly safe
> 
> To spend more cash on mr crash is not a good idea I can talk a-lot on my baby but it would be much better to replace them (the air frames are getting older and they need a new home called museums) or I can just buy a few
> 
> FOR LOW LEVEL STRIKE THE MIRAGE IS VERY VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AND THE STRESSES ARE IMMENSE ON THE AIR FRAME.
> 
> doing such major upgrades on an air frame that old will give you lots of issues, challenges and heavy heavy testing will be required to test the air craft if every thing but mirage being such an* unforgiving* air craft I would not want it to fly in today's battle air space to fight the enemy. but make no mistake it can impair you and disable you on the ground but there are platforms that can do it in a bigger number with fewer air craft.
> 
> 
> So let me answer your question is it doable......................(NO)..reason (heavy RND, heavy testing, air frame limit, design limit)
> Is it Viable....................(NO)....(much better options to the same job on a heavier scale)
> 
> 
> I like your enthusiasm


But we don't have $$$ to replace it sir

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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> But we don't have $$$ to replace it sir


We do but yet we dont the money has been taken from us by fat pigs and the people let them it is a complete shit show

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> We do but yet we dont the money has been taken from us by fat pigs and the people let them it is a complete shit show


yes may be in future when our economy improves the best option we have to replace is either J-10C or Mig-35


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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> yes may be in future when our economy improves the best option we have to replace is either J-10C or Mig-35


Mig 35 for various reasons (rd93) (flies like an f-16 and better) (easy to maintain on the field but expensive parts)
and jh-7 for the role that mirage is offering the PAF

today the PAF has a budget around 2.4 some what billion $ to by new and improved jet fighter 3000 we need a budget of 3 billion $ extra at the min

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Mig 35 for various reasons (rd93) (flies like an f-16 and better) (easy to maintain on the field but expensive parts)
> and jh-7 for the role that mirage is offering the PAF


For CAS and strike/anti ship JH-7 could be the best and Cheapest option, but today most of world air forces replacing their single mission jets with multi role jets


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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> For CAS and strike/anti ship JH-7 could be the best and Cheapest option, but today most of world air forces replacing their single mission jets with multi role jets


It is true my friend but let me ask you, If you are frightened of some thing would you mess with it? 

Single mission air-craft are the most feared and you need special khar-dimagh pilot (even more frightening)

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> It is true my friend but let me ask you, If you are frightened of some thing would you mess with it?
> 
> Single mission air-craft are the most feared and you need special khar-dimagh pilot (even more frightening)


But main thing is that PAF already rejected this jet sir and and we desperately need to induct deep strike jet to strike deep inside India and how about Su-34 or Su-24 is t possible to get old Su-24 from Russia on cheaper price tag at least


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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> But main thing is that PAF already rejected this jet sir and and we desperately need to induct deep strike jet to strike deep inside India and how about Su-34 or Su-24 is t possible to get old Su-24 from Russia on cheaper price tag at least


never buy old Russian equipment they make use and throw stuff. SU34 is a beauty and if you search my name you will get a broader view of JH-7B (improved version) and Su-34 (fighter bomber)

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> never by old Russian equipment they make use and throw stuff. SU34 is a beauty and if you search my name you will get a broader view of JH-7B (improved version) and Su-34 (fighter bomber)


But result would be same for JH-7B, PAF thinks that JH-7 or its B versions its design is too old to be fit in modern standards, as for Su-34 may be Russian not willing to sell Su-34 to Pakistan, that's why i suggest Su-24 sir


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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> But result would be same for JH-7B, PAF thinks that JH-7 or its B versions its design is too old to be fit in modern standards, as for Su-34 may be Russian not willing to sell Su-34 to Pakistan, that's why i suggest Su-24 sir


Sir I do not have the knowledge to comprehend what PAF is thinking in terms of strike air craft but jh-7b is a highly modernized version, if jh-7 is old than what is mirage ? it is older than my grand ma I have seen mirages flying in PAF older than the invention of rubix cube, bar codes, LCD, flopy disks and posted notes. Asuming you are not a child you will know about the difference in everything associated to those ages when we only had one type of bread one type of rice and one type of condiment to put on your burger THE MIRAGE IS THAT OLD.

Russia will do anything for the right price

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Sir I do not have the knowledge to comprehend what PAF is thinking in terms of strike air craft but jh-7b is a highly modernized version, if jh-7 is old than what is mirage ? it is older than my grand ma I have seen mirages flying in PAF older than the invention of rubix cube, bar codes, LCD, flopy disks and posted notes. Asuming you are not a child you will know about the difference in everything associated to those ages when we only had one type of bread one type of rice and one type of condiment to put on your burger THE MIRAGE IS THAT OLD.
> 
> Russia will do anything for the right price


i know sir that our Mirages are older than JH-7 but PAF knows better than why they reject JH-7B on what technical terms, 

Ab PAF KO KON SAMJHAI BHAI


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## MastanKhan

khanasifm said:


> Jh-7 folks please take your love affair to thread for Jh-7 this is mirage thread
> 
> Thank you [emoji120]



Hi,

It is better to stay quiet if you don't know any better---.

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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is better to stay quiet if you don't know any better---.



Any way we can private message to chat?


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> or upgraded JH-7s. Those will be specifically for low level deep strike weapons carriers.



Hi,

At this time---tactically Pakistan needs the JH7A's more than ever---. JF17 or Mirage 3/5's are just like putting your finger to plug the holes in the dikes.

Our first batch F16's are older than the JH7A.

JH7A's were built in or around 2004---. The JH7w were started around 1988---.

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## Nomad40

strike type fighter bombers are of immense importance to the Pakistan air force the bulk of our load to be completely honest falls on the shoulders of the f-16 now multi-role is a good platform but some times you need the right tool to do the job right. I have crunched numbers Again and Again, I love PAF and I would never cheat on her  but for fcuk sake get your ship straight the mirage is like squeezing the last bit out of your toothpaste I know we dont face a greater ground threat but we need it to keep it that way, we need a dedicated strike type / fighter bomber to deal with the Arabian sea, those Iran regime & Internal problems and we need something to support the f-16 and jf-17 type an air superiority fighter, just like french fires and bun kabbab. 

The f-16 is the bun the jf-17 is the kabbab because it is protected and complimented by the bun BUT WHEN EATING BUN KABAB AND FRENCH FRIES YOU ALWAYS EAT THE FRENCH FRIES FIRST THEN BUN KABBAB THAN FRIES FRIES BUNKABAB FRIES FRIES AND SO ON. 

PAF NEEDS FRENCH FRIES YOU KNOW WHEN YOU DON,T HAVE FRENCH FRIES WITH BUN KABAB YOU FEEL EMPTY YOU HAVE THIS DELICIOUS BUN KABAB BUT NO FRIES IT IS SAD THE AWACS ARE THE COLD DRINK.

3-4 SQUADRON OF 43 FIGHTER BOMBER (MIRAGE REPLACEMENT)
4 SQUADRON OF 56 SOME OR FULLY CAPABLE AIR SUPERIORITY TO BE THE FRENCH FRIES OF OUR NATION


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## bananarepublic

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> At this time---tactically Pakistan needs the JH7A's more than ever---. JF17 or Mirage 3/5's are just like putting your finger to plug the holes in the dikes.
> 
> Our first batch F16's are older than the JH7A.
> 
> JH7A's were built in or around 2004---. The JH7w were started around 1988---.



JH-7 is probably the best strike fighter for PAF right now, a bomb truck that provides exponential improvement to our strike capabilities.
While I do not know JH-7 flight characteristics compared to the delta wing mirages, the JH-7 brings to the table what the PAF desperately needs an excellent strike platform and a plane that could help with our potential dwindling aircraft numbers.


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## Signalian

araz said:


> What are your thoughts about reengining and upgrading the M3/5s to maintain 2- 3 squadrons for specific roles. Is it doable and FINANCIALLY viable? The engine being RD 93 and upgrades along the cheetah lines with KLJ7A radar.
> A


I think the last major upgrade to Mirage fleet was ROSE till 2003, its been almost 15+ years now. Due to older frames and cannibalization of aircraft for spares, it doesn't make sense to keep upgrading the aircraft. Minor changes like IFR probes are acceptable. PAF is not tilting towards J-10 also, EFT cannot be had in large numbers if its even possible to form the line up. JFT is replacing F-7 P, so Mirages still have a decade or two to go until some replacement is found.

A major infrastructure of PAF Mirages is placed at a AFB Rafiqui, Shorkot and then AFB Masroor. So the replacement aircraft will be placed at these bases. Due to nature of specialized roles of 25th and 27th squadrons, modern strike aircraft are required. 15th Sqd is also Tactical Attack, while 7th Sqd is mix of strike and air superiority, so definitely 4 x Sqds worth of a modern jet are required. Ra'ad Capable aircraft could be Chinese or French. Rafale is out of equation, Mirage-2000 option may not be exercised. EFT or SU-35 or any other which comes close to specs, otherwise wait for induction of stealth aircraft to take over strike role.

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## Hassannn85

so definitely 4 x Sqds worth of a modern jet are required. Ra'ad Capable aircraft could be Chinese or French. Rafale is out of equation, Mirage-2000 option may not be exercised. EFT or SU-35 or any other which comes close to specs, otherwise wait for induction of stealth aircraft to take over strike role.[/QUOTE]

@Khafee has gone AWOL and there's no inside info of any fighter jet procurement. 
Any guesstimate as to when we might be able to hear news about this topic? 

Secondly, considering our fiscal state what are our chances of procuring a European jet like EFT? 
Thank you.


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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> I think the last major upgrade to Mirage fleet was ROSE till 2003, its been almost 15+ years now. Due to older frames and cannibalization of aircraft for spares, it doesn't make sense to keep upgrading the aircraft. Minor changes like IFR probes are acceptable. PAF is not tilting towards J-10 also, EFT cannot be had in large numbers if its even possible to form the line up. JFT is replacing F-7 P, so Mirages still have a decade or two to go until some replacement is found.
> 
> A major infrastructure of PAF Mirages is placed at a AFB Rafiqui, Shorkot and then AFB Masroor. So the replacement aircraft will be placed at these bases. Due to nature of specialized roles of 25th and 27th squadrons, modern strike aircraft are required. 15th Sqd is also Tactical Attack, while 7th Sqd is mix of strike and air superiority, so definitely 4 x Sqds worth of a modern jet are required. Ra'ad Capable aircraft could be Chinese or French. Rafale is out of equation, Mirage-2000 option may not be exercised. EFT or SU-35 or any other which comes close to specs, otherwise wait for induction of stealth aircraft to take over strike role.


Options are there, money is not. In certain cases, money is there but will is not.
And there are good reasons we keep listening absurd arguments related to combat worth fulness of Mirages. Like 'we have upgraded them now; they are still relevant in modern combat, Op Swift Retort is proof; PAF Mirages have infinite airframe life as we keep updating them at MRF; PAF Mirage Rose are as good as IAF Mirages etc etc. 
But the fact is that these aircrafts are now almost obsolete, have poor availability, are heavy maintenance demanding, have poor sortie rate & turn around time. There is need to maintain only 2,3 squadrons of Mirages with most capable airframes. 
These aircrafts were suppose to retire by 2025 but apparently will now cross 2030.
A certain lobby within PAF also don't want this aircraft to go. Otherwise their 'bonus kharcha pani' will end up...

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## Hassannn85

Tipu7 said:


> Options are there, money is not. In certain cases, money is there but will is not.
> And there are good reasons we keep listening absurd arguments related to combat worth fulness of Mirages. Like 'we have upgraded them now; they are still relevant in modern combat, Op Swift Retort is proof; PAF Mirages have infinite airframe life as we keep updating them at MRF; PAF Mirage Rose are as good as IAF Mirages etc etc.
> But the fact is that these aircrafts are now almost obsolete, have poor availability, are heavy maintenance demanding, have poor sortie rate & turn around time. There is need to maintain only 2,3 squadrons of Mirages with most capable airframes.
> These aircrafts were suppose to retire by 2025 but apparently will now cross 2030.
> A certain lobby within PAF also don't want this aircraft to go. Otherwise their 'bonus kharcha pani' will end up...



Please elaborate on the options!


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## Pakistani Fighter

JH 7 in my eyes will only be useful against Mirages if it could carry Heavy Long Range AshMs as compared to Mirages and will therefore will need to be highly escorted by Air Superiority Fighters



Signalian said:


> I think the last major upgrade to Mirage fleet was ROSE till 2003, its been almost 15+ years now. Due to older frames and cannibalization of aircraft for spares, it doesn't make sense to keep upgrading the aircraft. Minor changes like IFR probes are acceptable. PAF is not tilting towards J-10 also, EFT cannot be had in large numbers if its even possible to form the line up. JFT is replacing F-7 P, so Mirages still have a decade or two to go until some replacement is found.
> 
> A major infrastructure of PAF Mirages is placed at a AFB Rafiqui, Shorkot and then AFB Masroor. So the replacement aircraft will be placed at these bases. Due to nature of specialized roles of 25th and 27th squadrons, modern strike aircraft are required. 15th Sqd is also Tactical Attack, while 7th Sqd is mix of strike and air superiority, so definitely 4 x Sqds worth of a modern jet are required. Ra'ad Capable aircraft could be Chinese or French. Rafale is out of equation, Mirage-2000 option may not be exercised. EFT or SU-35 or any other which comes close to specs, otherwise wait for induction of stealth aircraft to take over strike role.


Can u tell me how Mirages are used as Air Superiority. What A2A missiles and Radars they have for this role?


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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> Options are there, money is not. In certain cases, money is there but will is not.
> And there are good reasons we keep listening absurd arguments related to combat worth fulness of Mirages. Like 'we have upgraded them now; they are still relevant in modern combat, Op Swift Retort is proof; PAF Mirages have infinite airframe life as we keep updating them at MRF; PAF Mirage Rose are as good as IAF Mirages etc etc.
> But the fact is that these aircrafts are now almost obsolete, have poor availability, are heavy maintenance demanding, have poor sortie rate & turn around time. There is need to maintain only 2,3 squadrons of Mirages with most capable airframes.
> These aircrafts were suppose to retire by 2025 but apparently will now cross 2030.
> A certain lobby within PAF also don't want this aircraft to go. Otherwise their 'bonus kharcha pani' will end up...


Older F-16 A/B would have been an option to replace at least two Mirage squadrons like 15th and 7th. But a platform is required which can carry Ra'ad, H2/H4, C-802 and other non-american weaponry. This is where J-10, SU-35 or maybe EFT (with comparable weapons to above) come in. Not sure of J-11 license constraints. PAF might drag the mirage till something comes out of Azm.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Signalian said:


> C-802


Mirages carry this? I thought they carry Exocets while C 802s are carried by Thunders


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## Signalian

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> JH 7 in my eyes will only be useful against Mirages if it could carry Heavy Long Range AshMs as compared to Mirages and will therefore will need to be highly escorted by Air Superiority Fighters
> 
> 
> Can u tell me how Mirages are used as Air Superiority. What A2A missiles and Radars they have for this role?


SELEX Galileo Grifo M3 Radar.
Aim-9 missile.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Mirages carry this? I thought they carry Exocets while C 802s are carried by Thunders


i didn't say Mirage carries this. I said replacement should.

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> Older F-16 A/B would have been an option to replace at least two Mirage squadrons like 15th and 7th. But a platform is required which can carry Ra'ad, H2/H4, C-802 and other non-american weaponry. This is where J-10, SU-35 or maybe EFT (with comparable weapons to above) come in. Not sure of J-11 license constraints. PAF might drag the mirage till something comes out of Azm.


F16 is not the right option as it's available weapon package is limited and it suffers from certain technical and strategic restrictions imposed by United States.
The Mirages which are currently 'worthy' of air defense role only, however, can be replaced by Jf17 in current configuration or by surplus F16s (which USA is not willing to allow as per now).
The need is to get an aircraft which can carry all types of munitions which Mirage RI/RII/RIII carries. Which can undertake standoff strike missions, maritime strike roles, SEAD/DEAD missions and anti armor roles.
EFT is too expensive, Gripen got American engine, Su35 has been rejected by PAF due to technical and political reasons and J10 adds too little to justify purchase of separate platform in the presence of Jf17.



Signalian said:


> PAF might drag the mirage till something comes out of Azm.


Yeah, but Azm (NGFA) is not one on one replacement of Mirage. It's mission profile and operational utility will be very different.

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## Sine Nomine

Tipu7 said:


> Options are there, money is not. In certain cases, money is there but will is not.
> And there are good reasons we keep listening absurd arguments related to combat worth fulness of Mirages. Like 'we have upgraded them now; they are still relevant in modern combat, Op Swift Retort is proof; PAF Mirages have infinite airframe life as we keep updating them at MRF; PAF Mirage Rose are as good as IAF Mirages etc etc.
> But the fact is that these aircrafts are now almost obsolete, have poor availability, are heavy maintenance demanding, have poor sortie rate & turn around time. There is need to maintain only 2,3 squadrons of Mirages with most capable airframes.
> These aircrafts were suppose to retire by 2025 but apparently will now cross 2030.
> A certain lobby within PAF also don't want this aircraft to go. Otherwise their 'bonus kharcha pani' will end up...


You forgot POL bill they throw due to having 60 year old Turbojets as power pack.


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## Tipu7

Sine Nomine said:


> You forgot POL bill they throw due to having 60 year old Turbojets as power pack.


There is a saying among MRF technicians, 'Jo Mirage k engine ka Kam krta he, wo kisi hisab kitab k bghair bakhsha jae ga'.

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## The Accountant

Tipu7 said:


> Options are there, money is not. In certain cases, money is there but will is not.
> And there are good reasons we keep listening absurd arguments related to combat worth fulness of Mirages. Like 'we have upgraded them now; they are still relevant in modern combat, Op Swift Retort is proof; PAF Mirages have infinite airframe life as we keep updating them at MRF; PAF Mirage Rose are as good as IAF Mirages etc etc.
> But the fact is that these aircrafts are now almost obsolete, have poor availability, are heavy maintenance demanding, have poor sortie rate & turn around time. There is need to maintain only 2,3 squadrons of Mirages with most capable airframes.
> These aircrafts were suppose to retire by 2025 but apparently will now cross 2030.
> A certain lobby within PAF also don't want this aircraft to go. Otherwise their 'bonus kharcha pani' will end up...


Will not agree with last statement but rest is correct.


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## Signalian

If PAF have dragged a 3rd generation mirage for decades, I wonder when will PAF retire F-16 !

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## Haris Ali2140

Signalian said:


> If PAF have dragged a 3rd generation mirage for decades, I wonder when will PAF retire F-16 !


Well unlike mirage F-16 will serve in USAF as long as 2040s.

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## Sine Nomine

Signalian said:


> If PAF have dragged a 3rd generation mirage for decades, I wonder when will PAF retire F-16 !


Most probably we would be dead and hopefully our kids would be discussing How to do,this and that with PAF F-16' or maybe pics of F-16 would be posted on vintage fighters of PAF thread.

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## denel

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> ( Caution I am a very lazy person and i will miss some details )
> 
> As one can interpret from my name I really really love mirages and It is my utmost desired aircraft operated by the Pakistan air force and I have many many memories associated with Mirage (good and bad)
> 
> The first thing i would like to address is the engine, assuming we all know that the mirage type 3/5 are immensely *under powered* and complimented with a horrid *aspect ratio* just makes it much more difficult to employ the air craft in battle
> 
> the snecma atar type turbojet and the rd-93 type turbofan are worlds apart from the core
> 
> the snecma (turbo jet) has a sleeker but longer physical profile and the rd 93 is a bulkier but shorter (turbo fan) so it is impossible to interchange the Power plant .
> 
> The mirage 3/5 types are heavily upgraded as they are today and are being used for roles they were not intended for and pouring more money into it will be useless in my opinion, think of it in this way ( buying an old mehran upgrading to 22 inch tires, 333 hp Engine, bose sound systems, removing seats and installing a box tank for extra fuel, fitting touchscreen on the dash, getting premium of road GX shock absorbers suspensions, heating element and massage cushion for seat bla bla bla bla) you get the point right? Or you can just buy a lexus lx570 it will cost you a tad more but more comfortable for the driver and easy to use and most importantly safe
> 
> To spend more cash on mr crash is not a good idea I can talk a-lot on my baby but it would be much better to replace them (the air frames are getting older and they need a new home called museums) or I can just buy a few
> 
> FOR LOW LEVEL STRIKE THE MIRAGE IS VERY VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AND THE STRESSES ARE IMMENSE ON THE AIR FRAME.
> 
> doing such major upgrades on an air frame that old will give you lots of issues, challenges and heavy heavy testing will be required to test the air craft if every thing but mirage being such an* unforgiving* air craft I would not want it to fly in today's battle air space to fight the enemy. but make no mistake it can impair you and disable you on the ground but there are platforms that can do it in a bigger number with fewer air craft.
> 
> 
> So let me answer your question is it doable......................(NO)..reason (heavy RND, heavy testing, air frame limit, design limit)
> Is it Viable....................(NO)....(much better options to the same job on a heavier scale)
> 
> 
> I like your enthusiasm



This is where we discussed at length; cheetah program - zero and upgraded airframes, new wings. and improved engine. If these birds have not gone anywhere, they will not go anywhere for next 20 years. Yes RD-33 is a good option but so is atar-9k; cheetah airframe was later modd'ed to have flexibility for a larger engine swap.

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## Deltadart

Three scenarios have been discussed in great detail on this thread..... Matter fact going in circles, over and over again.
The 3000+ posts can be summed up in the following three categories.
1. Mirages are obsolete, replace them with newer aircrafts.
2. Refurbish or upgrade them to a higher standard.
3. Soldier on with in house improvements as necessary.

In light of our economic situation, PAF has neither the desire nor the funds to do anything elaborate with the mirages....end of discussion.

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## MastanKhan

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> JH 7 in my eyes will only be useful against Mirages if it could carry Heavy Long Range AshMs as compared to Mirages and will therefore will need to be highly escorted by Air Superiority Fighters
> 
> 
> Can u tell me how Mirages are used as Air Superiority. What A2A missiles and Radars they have for this role?



Hi,

" In my eyes " mean nothing---. Give examples of recent warfares---.


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## Basel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Why can't u make JF 17 as a precise strike fighter? Modify it to increase its Payload and Ground Clearance



It can perform that role, the problem is that its LCA not MCA, PAF need MCA for strike role, JFT have to be redesigned like Indian LCA to become MCA.

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## MastanKhan

Deltadart said:


> Three scenarios have been discussed in great detail on this thread..... Matter fact going in circles, over and over again.
> The 3000+ posts can be summed up in the following three categories.
> 1. Mirages are obsolete, replace them with newer aircrafts.
> 2. Refurbish or upgrade them to a higher standard.
> 3. Soldier on with in house improvements as necessary.
> 
> In light of our economic situation, PAF has neither the desire nor the funds to do anything elaborate with the the mirages....end of discussion.




Hi

Discussed by people who have no clues of tactics or mechanical inkling


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## khanasifm

Jf has crossed mirage 3/5 in range, max takeoff weight, max external load and weapons options so it’s best option to replace mirages 

Infact for the first time after its induction the strike range in maritime and ground attack has been extended , block three will bring newer package both in air to air and air to ground in play which surpasses even f-16s 

The only thing is pak economy is week and only one sqn per year average is max could be afforded

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> F16 is not the right option as it's available weapon package is limited and it suffers from certain technical and strategic restrictions imposed by United States.
> The Mirages which are currently 'worthy' of air defense role only, however, can be replaced by Jf17 in current configuration or by surplus F16s (which USA is not willing to allow as per now).
> The need is to get an aircraft which can carry all types of munitions which Mirage RI/RII/RIII carries. Which can undertake standoff strike missions, maritime strike roles, SEAD/DEAD missions and anti armor roles.
> EFT is too expensive, Gripen got American engine, Su35 has been rejected by PAF due to technical and political reasons and J10 adds too little to justify purchase of separate platform in the presence of Jf17.
> 
> 
> Yeah, but Azm (NGFA) is not one on one replacement of Mirage. It's mission profile and operational utility will be very different.



F-16 has its own triage of problems, but its a formidable platform for strike missions, i didn't mention specialized squadrons to induct F-16 as Mirage replacement. Any new aircraft that replaces Mirage has to go through a lot of enhancements to carry Chinese weapons. EFT maybe expensive, but its a direct rival to Rafale. The induction of Chinese weaponry could be an issue, for that J-10 or J-31 seem probable, though EFT could bring a different weapon package of its own.

EFT also seems a suitable replacement for F-16 in coming decades, unless some 5th gen replaces F-16.

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## Kabotar

Did we try Mig35? It shares engines with thunders. Best case would be to get J20s in mid 20s that's when they are supposed to get WS15 and replace F16s with AZM.


Tipu7 said:


> F16 is not the right option as it's available weapon package is limited and it suffers from certain technical and strategic restrictions imposed by United States.
> The Mirages which are currently 'worthy' of air defense role only, however, can be replaced by Jf17 in current configuration or by surplus F16s (which USA is not willing to allow as per now).
> The need is to get an aircraft which can carry all types of munitions which Mirage RI/RII/RIII carries. Which can undertake standoff strike missions, maritime strike roles, SEAD/DEAD missions and anti armor roles.
> EFT is too expensive, Gripen got American engine, Su35 has been rejected by PAF due to technical and political reasons and J10 adds too little to justify purchase of separate platform in the presence of Jf17.
> 
> 
> Yeah, but Azm (NGFA) is not one on one replacement of Mirage. It's mission profile and operational utility will be very different.


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## Ultima Thule

Kabotar said:


> Did we try Mig35? It shares engines with thunders. Best case would be to get J20s in mid 20s that's when they are supposed to get WS15 and replace F16s with AZM.


J-20 is banned for export by China, so forget J-20

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## mingle

Signalian said:


> F-16 has its own triage of problems, but its a formidable platform for strike missions, i didn't mention specialized squadrons to induct F-16 as Mirage replacement. Any new aircraft that replaces Mirage has to go through a lot of enhancements to carry Chinese weapons. EFT maybe expensive, but its a direct rival to Rafale. The induction of Chinese weaponry could be an issue, for that J-10 or J-31 seem probable, though EFT could bring a different weapon package of its own.
> 
> EFT also seems a suitable replacement for F-16 in coming decades, unless some 5th gen replaces F-16.


Italian EF taken by eygpt So more likely they gone if we get a good line of credit along less string weapon package we can induct EF in good steady numbers but with this big deal Trump won't be happy let's see how its pans out decision is made to induct new platform will see what comes out I am certain PAF will procure something other than blk 3 to deal Rafale an American package with less strings or EF in small numbers to replace Mirages gradually.


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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> F-16 has its own triage of problems, but its a formidable platform for strike missions, i didn't mention specialized squadrons to induct F-16 as Mirage replacement. Any new aircraft that replaces Mirage has to go through a lot of enhancements to carry Chinese weapons. EFT maybe expensive, but its a direct rival to Rafale. The induction of Chinese weaponry could be an issue, for that J-10 or J-31 seem probable, though EFT could bring a different weapon package of its own.
> 
> EFT also seems a suitable replacement for F-16 in coming decades, unless some 5th gen replaces F-16.


By the way @Signalian, what are you doing on a Air Force thread? Weren't you an Army guy?
Diversifying interests?

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> By the way @Signalian, what are you doing on a Air Force thread? Weren't you an Army guy?
> Diversifying interests?


@Tipu7 what Ur take Mirages replacement??? How eygpt is on shopping spree even theior economy not permit them big tickets item now they buying Italian EF and ships worth 9 billion before French shopping spree and Russian what's going on how we can learn from them????


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## Zephyrus

Signalian said:


> I think the last major upgrade to Mirage fleet was ROSE till 2003, its been almost 15+ years now. Due to older frames and cannibalization of aircraft for spares, it doesn't make sense to keep upgrading the aircraft. Minor changes like IFR probes are acceptable. PAF is not tilting towards J-10 also, EFT cannot be had in large numbers if its even possible to form the line up. JFT is replacing F-7 P, so Mirages still have a decade or two to go until some replacement is found.
> 
> A major infrastructure of PAF Mirages is placed at a AFB Rafiqui, Shorkot and then AFB Masroor. So the replacement aircraft will be placed at these bases. Due to nature of specialized roles of 25th and 27th squadrons, modern strike aircraft are required. 15th Sqd is also Tactical Attack, while 7th Sqd is mix of strike and air superiority, so definitely 4 x Sqds worth of a modern jet are required. Ra'ad Capable aircraft could be Chinese or French. Rafale is out of equation, Mirage-2000 option may not be exercised. EFT or SU-35 or any other which comes close to specs, otherwise wait for induction of stealth aircraft to take over strike role.


Hi, IFRs weren't a minor change, they required drastic study and redesign, as per older sources the mirage 3/5 lacked the ability to be air refueled, it was something that the OEM considered near to impossible.


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## StormBreaker

Tipu7 said:


> By the way @Signalian, what are you doing on a Air Force thread? Weren't you an Army guy?
> Diversifying interests?


That’s a rare but quite an honorable situation i must say. The last convo he had with me on an AirForce thread was quite qood and informative.

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## Zephyrus

Something tells me that there would be a specialist variant of the JF17 for ground attack role, that's the only possible solution for our mirage woes, the fact that the thunder lacks adequate ground clearance for the attachment of Ra'ad can be remedied by minor changes in the design of the Ra'ad. 
Or strengthening the wings of the thunder to carry Ra'ad on hardpoints 2 and 6.

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## Signalian

Tipu7 said:


> By the way @Signalian, what are you doing on a Air Force thread? Weren't you an Army guy?
> Diversifying interests?


Somebody threw me into avionics and related systems, so my department has changed to aeronautical systems now.



StormBreaker said:


> That’s a rare but quite an honorable situation i must say. The last convo he had with me on an AirForce thread was quite qood and informative.


haan i learnt a thing or two in past few months.

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## aliyusuf

Signalian said:


> Somebody threw me into avionics and related systems, so my department has changed to aeronautical systems now.


So can someone do such a thing without your willingness or approval?


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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> Somebody threw me into avionics and related systems, so my department has changed to aeronautical systems now


Looks like some one will throw you in sea too. It's natural to move from Army to Air Force to Navy. 
Kindly do some postmortem of Indian Army ORBAT.



mingle said:


> @Tipu7 what Ur take Mirages replacement??? How eygpt is on shopping spree even theior economy not permit them big tickets item now they buying Italian EF and ships worth 9 billion before French shopping spree and Russian what's going on how we can learn from them????


The defense build up depends upon two primary factors. 
1: Threat environment 
2: Economic sources 
Egypt is currently facing multiple threats from multiple front. It is involved in low intensity conflict with AQ/ISIS affiliated militia in Sinai desert. It has border issues with Sudan. Got historic rivalry with Israel. Got a war torn country as neighbor in shape of Libya and is now facing clash with Turkey over domination in Mediterranean sea. 

Such multitude of threats demands robust force build up, and that too in diverse dimensions. That's why Egypt is desperately spending upon defense despite of poor economic support.

Pakistan case is much dilute now in comparison with Egypt.

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## War Historian

Egypt also enjoying saudi royalty for free military shopping across the world, for their unconditional support to the saudi monarchy on their ambitions from Yemen to iraq all over the middle East


Tipu7 said:


> Looks like some one will throw you in sea too. It's natural to move from Army to Air Force to Navy.
> Kindly do some postmortem of Indian Army ORBAT.
> 
> 
> The defense build up depends upon two primary factors.
> 1: Threat environment
> 2: Economic sources
> Egypt is currently facing multiple threats from multiple front. It is involved in low intensity conflict with AQ/ISIS affiliated militia in Sinai desert. It has border issues with Sudan. Got historic rivalry with Israel. Got a war torn country as neighbor in shape of Libya and is now facing clash with Turkey over domination in Mediterranean sea.
> 
> Such multitude of threats demands robust force build up, and that too in diverse dimensions. That's why Egypt is desperately spending upon defense despite of poor economic support.
> 
> Pakistan case is much dilute now in comparison with Egypt.

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## Zephyrus

Has anyone of you noticed that the mirage can only carry specialist weapons like the H2/H4, REKs and exocet on the center line pylon while thunder can carry these or similar weapons on pylons 2 3 4 5 and 6?

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VPA/2457


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## Viper27

Zephyrus said:


> Has anyone of you noticed that the mirage can only carry specialist weapons like the H2/H4, REKs and exocet on the center line pylon while thunder can carry these or similar weapons on pylons 2 3 4 5 and 6?



I don't think thats entirely true. I recall seeing PAF Mirages carrying exocets on the other pylons.


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## khanasifm

Was raad2 recent launch /today again From mirage or jf ?


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## Haris Ali2140

khanasifm said:


> Was raad2 recent launch /today again From mirage or jf ?


Mirage.


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## mshan44



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## GriffinsRule

Viper27 said:


> I don't think thats entirely true. I recall seeing PAF Mirages carrying exocets on the other pylons.


Mirage 3/5 can only carry one on the center line. You probably saw a Mirage 2000

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

denel said:


> This is where we discussed at length; cheetah program - zero and upgraded airframes, new wings. and improved engine. If these birds have not gone anywhere, they will not go anywhere for next 20 years. Yes RD-33 is a good option but so is atar-9k; cheetah airframe was later modd'ed to have flexibility for a larger engine swap.


Let's say the PAF, unlikely as it would be, goes for a Cheetah type upgrade. How viable would it be to develop/upgrade the powerplant even further and since the main role of the Mirages is air-to-ground, what changes in avionics and airframe would that dictate?


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## m52k85

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 607106


Is that 2 Ra'ads, one under each wing?

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## Shabi1

m52k85 said:


> Is that 2 Ra'ads, one under each wing?


those are fuel tanks

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## denel

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Let's say the PAF, unlikely as it would be, goes for a Cheetah type upgrade. How viable would it be to develop/upgrade the powerplant even further and since the main role of the Mirages is air-to-ground, what changes in avionics and airframe would that dictate?


we have noted before, Atar-9c is hopelessly underpowered for handling cheetah; that is why 9K from F1 was choosen; later at atlas poc was performed with RD engine as well as it gave the most optimal performance and range.

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## ghazi52



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## Marker

*PAF Mirage III/V (New or Secondhand) Orders and Delivery/Transfer Datasheet





*
PS: Rose III modification includes Rose II
up-gradation

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## khanasifm

Marker said:


> *PAF Mirage III/V (New or Secondhand) Orders and Delivery/Transfer Datasheet
> 
> View attachment 607472
> 
> *
> PS: Rose III modification includes Rose II
> up-gradation



Per paf/Afm article ~ 70 Libyan mirages picked up along with crotale 1000 sams 

10 dual seater revived to air worthy status rest used for spares


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Per paf/Afm article ~ 70 Libyan mirages picked up along with crotale 1000 sams
> 
> 10 dual seater revived to air worthy status rest used for spares


the biggest prize was a lot of sealed brand new engines.

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## Nomad40

any one know if PAF is willing to sell me a Mirage

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## Pakistani Fighter

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> any one know if PAF is willing to sell me a Mirage


No


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## khanasifm

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> any one know if PAF is willing to sell me a Mirage



Some old one sold for scrap to vendors who deal with paf one in hayatabad peshawar from some steel company bought and put up with their info

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## Nomad40

khanasifm said:


> Some old one sold for scrap to vendors who deal with paf one in hayatabad peshawar from some steel company bought and put up with their info
> 
> View attachment 607506


Yes if indeed PAF is Selling Mirages in the future I would Most Definitely wish to Invest in One, Jap f4's are going 3mil a piece (flying condition).


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## mshan44



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## GriffinsRule

The Lebanese Mirages 3ELs are the youngest in the fleet with barely 20 years of service. There were flown for just a few hundred hours before going into storage and would be ideal candidates for a ROSE upgrade similar to the Aussie Mirage 3Os

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## Gorgin Khan

khanasifm said:


> Some old one sold for scrap to vendors who deal with paf one in hayatabad peshawar from some steel company bought and put up with their info
> 
> View attachment 607506



Its not a real mirage. Your Info is incorrect.

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## Shabi1

khanasifm said:


> Some old one sold for scrap to vendors who deal with paf one in hayatabad peshawar from some steel company bought and put up with their info
> 
> View attachment 607506


Pvt companies often put up their logos after repainting/renovating chowks even though they didnt build them. You can see the stand of the aircraft was painted recently while aircraft isn't.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

khanasifm said:


> Some old one sold for scrap to vendors who deal with paf one in hayatabad peshawar from some steel company bought and put up with their info
> 
> View attachment 607506


that isn't an actual mirage, that's a scale steel replica.


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## TsAr

IM Ozair said:


> I think currently the best option for PAF is to look towards:
> 
> 50 J-10Cs
> 50 EF-2000s
> 
> 40-60 JH-7s are good for PN roles, as half would station in Karachi and half in Gwadar.


what you are suggesting is a logistical nightmare....

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## The Eagle

Thread subject is
*Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V*
to discuss. 

Alternates, other possible platform for same role with extra punch etc, be discussed in separate thread. I am sure there are plenty or at-least couple of threads available for such discussion. Please avoid derailing thread.

Regards,

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## Nomad40

khanasifm said:


> Some old one sold for scrap to vendors who deal with paf one in hayatabad peshawar from some steel company bought and put up with their info
> 
> View attachment 607506


FOR SOME ODD REASON I DID NOT SEE THE PICTURE AND BY UPON SECOND GLANCE THIS SEEMS TO BE A FAKE/DUMMY 1:2 SCALE MIRAGE


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## Marker

*PAF Fighter Aircraft Deep Strike Capabilities
*





*Current Indo-Pak War Theater - Available PAF Aerial War Efforts *

Except F-7, all fighter aircraft held in PAF inventory can strike air/ground/sea target(s) located more than 1000 km inside the enemy territory.

F-7s will be used only as Fighter Interceptors performing as last defence stand along with the SAMs to protect the important installations, ECM/EW/AEW&C and command and control air/sea/ground platforms inside Pakistani airspace.

Mirages III/V will be used only as deep strike platforms, loaded with Ra'ad CM, Anti-Ship missiles, AGMs and H-2/H-4 SOW etc

JF-17 and F-16 will be used as multi-role platforms to counter, curtail and neutralize enemy air/ground/sea threat.

*PAF future possible actions to enhance the aerial war efforts in the coming years.*

JF-17 Block I will replace F-7 and used as fighter interceptors. (>50 aircraft)

JF-17 Block II will replace Mirages III/V and used as deep strike platforms. (>60 aircraft)

JF-17 Block III and F-16 will continue to perform as multi-role platforms. (>50 JF-17 Block III; >76 F-16 by 2024)

Another 200+ JF-17 Block II/III should be produced by the end of 2030 to fill the shortage of around 250+ aircraft due retiring – F-7s by 2024 and Mirages III/V by 2030. For this PAC has to increase the production capacity to 25+ aircraft per year.

Furthermore PAC Kamra should also divert some of its precious resources to design and produce 4++ generation, semi-stealth, twin engine medium weight multi-role fighter using JF-17 DNA and RD-93 engines by the end of 2030.

Meanwhile, PAF should seek transfer of technology from Russia, China and Turkey to manufacture RD-93 engine locally.

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## Windjammer



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## Haris Ali2140

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 608283


Okay Elephant Walks are for show off. But why does PAF hides it.

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## Windjammer

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Okay Elephant Walks are for show off. But why does PAF hides it.


PAF seldom carries this practice bar on a few occasions, I'm still trying to get hold of F-16 Elephant Walk that was done in the 80s.

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## TsAr

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Okay Elephant Walks are for show off. But why does PAF hides it.


More then a show off it also shows the capability of launching multiple aircraft simultaneously.


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## Nomad40

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Okay Elephant Walks are for show off. But why does PAF hides it.

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## Ali_Baba

18 aircraft, one full squadron!!! Nice. First elephant walk i have ever seen of the PAF !!!!!

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## Nomad40

Ali_Baba said:


> 18 aircraft, one full squadron!!! Nice. First elephant walk i have ever seen of the PAF !!!!!


dont you just love this old rust bucket

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## Marker

One major advantage of procuring second hand Mirages, which should be recognized, is the *accessibility to various western EW/ECM electronic packages* installed on them. PAC and their Chinese friends must have utilized this opportunity to peek into these western technologies and hence upgrading similar locally developed electronic packages being manufactured for JF-17 and other aircraft.

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## Adam_Khan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 608283



Just wondering can parking all the squadron aircraft on the taxi way be called an elephant walk?

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## GriffinsRule

Ali_Baba said:


> 18 aircraft, one full squadron!!! Nice. First elephant walk i have ever seen of the PAF !!!!!


Not a full squadron but aircraft from 2 to 4 squadrons.
This is probably from Rafiqui AFB, which is home to the tactical attack Mirage squadrons 15, 25 and 27 as well as the 22 OCU squadron. The front 3 aircraft are Mirage 5Fs from the Zarrars and Ghazis and the next 3 are Mirage 5DR of the Cobras.

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## Hayreddin

TsAr said:


> what you are suggesting is a logistical nightmare....


To avoid logistic nightmare other option is to negotiate with france for reproduction/tot of mirage 2000( modified version) in pakistan with modifications according to pakistan" s needs like Aesa radar ( pakistan own chossing from market ) , EW and avionic package , more composite and stealthy material and body coating and possibly Meteor AAM . You can call it a cheap Rafael ....

Ideal for paf till 2030 
Mirage 2k ( modified version / made in pakistan) : 108,, 6 squadrons 
JFT block 3 : 54 , 3 squadrons 
JFT block I/ II ( upgraded to 3) : 110 , 6 squadron
JFT block 4 : 36 , 2 squadrons 
F16 A/B/C ( upgraded to V ) : 76 , 4 squadrons 
F16 V blk 70 : 36 , 2 squadrons 
(First flight of Prog Azm 5 gen in 2026-28 , productiin line opens) 
Total : 420+ , 23 squadrons .

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## araz

Hayreddin said:


> To avoid logistic nightmare other option is to negotiate with france for reproduction/tot of mirage 2000( modified version) in pakistan with modifications according to pakistan" s needs like Aesa radar ( pakistan own chossing from market ) , EW and avionic package , more composite and stealthy material and body coating and possibly Meteor AAM . You can call it a cheap Rafael ....
> 
> Ideal for paf till 2030
> Mirage 2k ( modified version / made in pakistan) : 108,, 6 squadrons
> JFT block 3 : 54 , 3 squadrons
> JFT block I/ II ( upgraded to 3) : 110 , 6 squadron
> JFT block 4 : 36 , 2 squadrons
> F16 A/B/C ( upgraded to V ) : 76 , 4 squadrons
> F16 V blk 70 : 36 , 2 squadrons
> (First flight of Prog Azm 5 gen in 2026-28 , productiin line opens)
> Total : 420+ , 23 squadrons .


PAF has never bought a platform that it intended to use for 10 years. The only exception being F104s which were crippled due to sanctions. It is not realistic to do this now. You have a better plane and the most expedient way would be to increase production rates of Block 3 to 25 platforms and start replacing older fleet.
PAF Awill retain M3/5s for a specific role as they have a large infrastructure for their fleet and manpower to fly the platform expertly.
Even if PAF wants a delta to replace the Deltas J10 would be a saner answer. I suspect J10 is not being acquired due to restricted engine supplies as apparently Chinese engines are barely enough to cater to their own needs and going for AL31FN would add more complexities. Finance also remains a dire state not allowing newer acquisitions.
A

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## Nomad40

Hayreddin said:


> To avoid logistic nightmare other option is to negotiate with france for reproduction/tot of mirage 2000( modified version) in pakistan with modifications according to pakistan" s needs like Aesa radar ( pakistan own chossing from market ) , EW and avionic package , more composite and stealthy material and body coating and possibly Meteor AAM . You can call it a cheap Rafael ....
> 
> Ideal for paf till 2030
> Mirage 2k ( modified version / made in pakistan) : 108,, 6 squadrons
> JFT block 3 : 54 , 3 squadrons
> JFT block I/ II ( upgraded to 3) : 110 , 6 squadron
> JFT block 4 : 36 , 2 squadrons
> F16 A/B/C ( upgraded to V ) : 76 , 4 squadrons
> F16 V blk 70 : 36 , 2 squadrons
> (First flight of Prog Azm 5 gen in 2026-28 , productiin line opens)
> Total : 420+ , 23 squadrons .


RUPEYA NIKAL

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## khanasifm

The problem I see in this forum/threads is folks with no background and experience or relevance to the industry tends to act like industry experts and start putting suggestions and recommendations which does not make sense 

I still encourage participation and contribution but there should be limit to one acting like an expert with no background to even put something out 

If you are an IT expert, in medical profession or used car salesman stick to your profession , just spending time on forums and reading few books does not make you an expert to give recommendations as an expert and belittling others 





Anyway I hope they at least should be made aware ...

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## Nomad40

khanasifm said:


> The problem I see in this forum/threads is folks with no background and experience or relevance to the industry tends to act like industry experts and start putting suggestions and recommendations which does not make sense
> 
> I still encourage participation and contribution but there should be limit to one acting like an expert with no background to even put something out
> 
> If you are an IT expert, in medical profession or used car salesman stick to your profession , just spending time on forums and reading few books does not make you an expert to give recommendations as an expert and belittling others
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway I hope they at least should be made aware ...


Hello, who are they ?

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## MastanKhan

khanasifm said:


> The problem I see in this forum/threads is folks with no background and experience or relevance to the industry tends to act like industry experts and start putting suggestions and recommendations which does not make sense
> 
> I still encourage participation and contribution but there should be limit to one acting like an expert with no background to even put something out
> 
> If you are an IT expert, in medical profession or used car salesman stick to your profession , just spending time on forums and reading few books does not make you an expert to give recommendations as an expert and belittling others
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway I hope they at least should be made aware ...



Hi,

Write something original of your own---and stop USING stuff from 'other' sources and posting it here under your name---.

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## araz

khanasifm said:


> The problem I see in this forum/threads is folks with no background and experience or relevance to the industry tends to act like industry experts and start putting suggestions and recommendations which does not make sense
> 
> I still encourage participation and contribution but there should be limit to one acting like an expert with no background to even put something out
> 
> If you are an IT expert, in medical profession or used car salesman stick to your profession , just spending time on forums and reading few books does not make you an expert to give recommendations as an expert and belittling others
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway I hope they at least should be made aware ...


It is a forum where people come to learn and express an opinion. It has nothing to do with what their profession is. Value a good opinion no matter where it comes from. If only people who knew commented then there would have been a lot of silence here.
A


----------



## Trailer23

Ant footage of a Mirage V dropping an H-4?

@Windjammer @Hodor @The Eagle


----------



## Talon

Dazzler said:


> Back after dropping the payload on 27th, the uploader says....


Its dusk time in the video,this was mentioned earlier as well.



Trailer23 said:


> Ant footage of a Mirage V dropping an H-4?
> 
> @Windjammer @Hodor @The Eagle


There was one posted by @HRK i think?

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## HRK

Hodor said:


> There was one posted by @HRK i think?


not exactly Mirage jet dropping H-4 but Mirage flying with H-2/H-4 video is posted by PAF official youtube channel




at 3:35 min

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## Trailer23

HRK said:


> not exactly Mirage jet dropping H-4 but Mirage flying with H-2/H-4 video is posted by PAF official youtube channel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> at 3:35 min


Thanx man. Imagine I had the clip, but was browsing pretty fast that I missed it.

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## aziqbal

Mirage still a very good test bed 

remember our first refuelling was on a Mirage

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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23

@Hodor @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) - Whomsoever gets back first.
What type of Missile is this on the Mirage...?




I got this off that new PAF Song '_Allahu Akbar_'.

*Timestamped:*


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Trailer23 said:


> @Hodor @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) - Whomsoever gets back first.
> What type of Missile is this on the Mirage...?
> 
> View attachment 610678​
> I got this off that new PAF Song '_Allahu Akbar_'.
> 
> *Timestamped:*


Arey Bhai its RA'AD II Tested recently


----------



## Windjammer

Trailer23 said:


> @Hodor @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) - Whomsoever gets back first.
> What type of Missile is this on the Mirage...?
> 
> View attachment 610678​



That's the R'had-2 which was tested last month.


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

HRK said:


> not exactly Mirage jet dropping H-4 but Mirage flying with H-2/H-4 video is posted by PAF official youtube channel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> at 3:35 min


Is PAF Official channel removed from youtube?
@Windjammer @airomerix @Hodor @Knuckles @The Eagle


----------



## airomerix

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is PAF Official channel removed from youtube?
> @Windjammer @airomerix @Hodor @Knuckles @The Eagle



It says 

"This account has been terminated due to multiple or severe violations of YouTube's policy against spam, deceptive practices, and misleading content or other Terms of Service violations."

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## Cent4

Trailer23 said:


> @Hodor @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) - Whomsoever gets back first.
> What type of Missile is this on the Mirage...?
> 
> View attachment 610678​
> I got this off that new PAF Song '_Allahu Akbar_'.
> 
> *Timestamped:*


Raad ?


----------



## HRK

Trailer23 said:


> @Hodor @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) - Whomsoever gets back first.
> What type of Missile is this on the Mirage...?
> 
> View attachment 610678​
> I got this off that new PAF Song '_Allahu Akbar_'.
> 
> *Timestamped:*


RA'AD-II test


----------



## ziaulislam

airomerix said:


> It says
> 
> "This account has been terminated due to multiple or severe violations of YouTube's policy against spam, deceptive practices, and misleading content or other Terms of Service violations."


Ofcourse deceptive representation of india..
Somehow pakistan has not been able to sell its 200 m market
If it cant it should look for alternatives 
There are alternative to google youtube facebook


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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> Ofcourse deceptive representation of india..
> Somehow pakistan has not been able to sell its 200 m market
> If it cant it should look for alternatives
> There are alternative to google youtube facebook



Probably copyright violations for using songs? Not sure what spam they could have been doing. Anyways, better for PAF to update their own website and have the songs and videos available for people to download

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## Incog_nito

TsAr said:


> what you are suggesting is a logistical nightmare....


Agree. But not for PAF.


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## TsAr

IM Ozair said:


> Agree. But not for PAF.


care to explain....

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## Incog_nito

TsAr said:


> care to explain....


I care.


----------



## Windjammer



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## mshan44



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## khanasifm

67-302 meaning paf first batch from 1967


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## Marker

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 611746





khanasifm said:


> 67-302 meaning paf first batch from 1967


A total of 24 Mirage III EP/RP/DP were ordered under the contract Blue Flash I in 1967.

First batch of six Mirages III EPs flown by famous Wg Cdr MM Alam (Air Cdr Rtd), Sqn Ldr Hakimullah (former CoAS), Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan (former CoAS), Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar (AVM Rtd), Flt Lt Arif Manzoor (died in flying accident in Syria) and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao (Wg Cdr Rtd).

Aircraft S# 67-101 to 67-106 flew from Mont de Marson to Karachi on March 18, 1968.

Aircraft S# 67-302 is one of first three Mirage III DPs procured under Blue Flash I.

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## Incog_nito

I think F-16s A/B can become the next Mirages for PAF. 

PAF just need to hunt them from the USAF boneyards and also from other operators.

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## Deltadart

IM Ozair said:


> I think F-16s A/B can become the next Mirages for PAF.
> 
> PAF just need to hunt them from the USAF boneyards and also from other operators.


Without the US consent and the technical support from LM, it will never be possible. Unlike the French, the US excercises complete control over the transfer of US made weapons to third parties..... Case in point.... The Jordanian F16s.
But who can tell, what the future holds.

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## Danish saleem

we planed JF 17 in 90's and after that it is now 20 years, nothing new planned. and now we still relying heavily on F-16 again, dont know what about the fate of procurement of J-10's, again we shifting towards US.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

IM Ozair said:


> I think F-16s A/B can become the next Mirages for PAF.


Pakistan as a nation has paid a very heavy price to acquire and maintain these formidable machines. They still have no match in the region at the moment. Nevertheless we should explore new avenues as well. Uncle Sam will always skin us to the bone as he is well aware of our insatiable desire for these toys.

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## Marker

F-16 is not only PAF's strength but its weakness as well.

While Mirages proved their worth in 1971, F-16s proved their worth during Afghan conflict in 1980s by shooting down eight intruding aircraft. (4 Su-22s, 2 Mig-23s, 1 Su-25 and 1 An-26)

PAF will not retire F-16s from its fleet till 2050s or may be beyond. Older F-16A/Bs after service life mode can fly for 12000 hours.

US has started discontinuing the production of F-16. Production of F-16 Block 70 for Behrain appears to be last order.

LM is looking for a customer to buy its F-16 production line. India and South Korea are the potential customers.

US has planned to phase out its F-16 fleet by 2040s.

PAF will seek purchasing opportunity specially older F-16s to strengthen its fleet but of-course without usual attached strings.



IM Ozair said:


> I think F-16s A/B can become the next Mirages for PAF.
> 
> PAF just need to hunt them from the USAF boneyards and also from other operators.





Deltadart said:


> Without the US consent and the technical support from LM, it will never be possible. Unlike the French, the US excercises complete control over the transfer of US made weapons to third parties..... Case in point.... The Jordanian F16s.
> But who can tell, what the future holds.





FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Pakistan as a nation has paid a very heavy price to acquire and maintain these formidable machines. They still have no match in the region at the moment. Nevertheless we should explore new avenues as well. Uncle Sam will always skin us to the bone as he is well aware of our insatiable desire for these toys.





Danish saleem said:


> we planed JF 17 in 90's and after that it is now 20 years, nothing new planned. and now we still relying heavily on F-16 again, dont know what about the fate of procurement of J-10's, again we shifting towards US.



It appears that PAF is not interested in inducting a new aircraft system because its induction phase will cost huge amount of money which PAF do not want to spend on such venture.

At present PAF is focusing on two major ventures:

1. Up-gradation of JF-17 Block IIIs with state of art avionics suit and weapons.

2. Project Azm.

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## Adam_Khan

Marker said:


> A total of 24 Mirage III EP/RP/DP were ordered under the contract Blue Flash I in 1967.
> 
> First batch of six Mirages III EPs flown by famous Wg Cdr MM Alam (Air Cdr Rtd), Sqn Ldr Hakimullah (former CoAS), Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan (former CoAS), Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar (AVM Rtd), Flt Lt Arif Manzoor (died in flying accident in Syria) and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao (Wg Cdr Rtd).
> 
> Aircraft S# 67-101 to 67-106 flew from Mont de Marson to Karachi on March 18, 1968.
> 
> Aircraft S# 67-302 is one of first three Mirage III DPs procured under Blue Flash I.



Don't think any single seaters from the first batch are still flying.


----------



## Marker

Adam_Khan said:


> Don't think any single seaters from the first batch are still flying.



According to Wikipedia No 15 Squadron "Cobra" is still flying Mirage III EP/RP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pakistan_Air_Force_squadrons

A total of 18 III EP, 3 III RP and 3 III DP were procured under Blue Flash 1.

10 III RPs were procured under Blue Flash 3 in 1977


----------



## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Adam_Khan said:


> Don't think any single seaters from the first batch are still flying.


One IIIEP is still in service with the 15 squadron, although not in it's original configuration and IIIRP's (not sure which batch) are still active.


----------



## GriffinsRule

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> One IIIEP is still in service with the 15 squadron, although not in it's original configuration and IIIRP's (not sure which batch) are still active.



Yep only 67-116 is left of the original batch of 18 Mirage IIIEPs and is the oldest Mirage in PAF's inventory. It flies with the Cobras.

67-101 was actually flying not that far back and was in fact the pattern aircraft for the third round of overhauls. It crashed in January 2017. 

None of the original three RPs have survived. Of the dual-seat all three seem to by flying, but hard to be certain.

While on the topic, does anyone have pictures of any of the following French Mirage 5Fs we got? 96-702, 96-710, 96-713, 96-731, 96-744, 96-751 and 96-752? One of these crashed in France prior to delivery, but not sure which one.

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## hassan1



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## Adam_Khan

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> One IIIEP is still in service with the 15 squadron, although not in it's original configuration and IIIRP's (not sure which batch) are still active.




What do you mean by not in it's original configuration?


----------



## Adam_Khan

Mirage III with nose cone of Mirage V.

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## Aamir Hussain

last two pics have a nosecone of Mirage III


----------



## Adam_Khan

Aamir Hussain said:


> last two pics have a nosecone of Mirage III


Yes just talking about the first picture,also if you check the Isac 2019 video you can find a Mirage V with nose cone of Mirage III performing take off roll.

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## volatile

Mera Mirage mere Marzi 


Adam_Khan said:


> Yes just talking about the first picture,also if you check the Isac 2019 video you can find a Mirage V with nose cone of Mirage III performing take off roll.

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## Incog_nito

Marker said:


> F-16 is not only PAF's strength but its weakness as well.
> 
> While Mirages proved their worth in 1971, F-16s proved their worth during Afghan conflict in 1980s by shooting down eight intruding aircraft. (4 Su-22s, 2 Mig-23s, 1 Su-25 and 1 An-26)
> 
> PAF will not retire F-16s from its fleet till 2050s or may be beyond. Older F-16A/Bs after service life mode can fly for 12000 hours.
> 
> US has started discontinuing the production of F-16. Production of F-16 Block 70 for Behrain appears to be last order.
> 
> LM is looking for a customer to buy its F-16 production line. India and South Korea are the potential customers.
> 
> US has planned to phase out its F-16 fleet by 2040s.
> 
> PAF will seek purchasing opportunity specially older F-16s to strengthen its fleet but of-course without usual attached strings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears that PAF is not interested in inducting a new aircraft system because its induction phase will cost huge amount of money which PAF do not want to spend on such venture.
> 
> At present PAF is focusing on two major ventures:
> 
> 1. Up-gradation of JF-17 Block IIIs with state of art avionics suit and weapons.
> 
> 2. Project Azm.




The time has changed a lot for Pakistan.

Let's see how PAF will going to take advantage.


----------



## GriffinsRule

Adam_Khan said:


> Mirage III with nose cone of Mirage V.
> 
> View attachment 612436
> 
> 
> View attachment 612437
> 
> View attachment 612438


The first one was a Mirage 3R version most likely

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Adam_Khan said:


> What do you mean by not in it's original configuration?


Older Cyrano II radar and nose cone have been replaced with Australian recce nose cone equipped with I think the Fairchild KA-56 Low Altitude Panoramic Camera.



Adam_Khan said:


> View attachment 612436


like the one here



Adam_Khan said:


> Yes just talking about the first picture,also if you check the Isac 2019 video you can find a Mirage V with nose cone of Mirage III performing take off roll.
> 
> View attachment 612449
> 
> View attachment 612450
> View attachment 612451
> View attachment 612452


That'll be a IIIDP with a standard radar-less nose , not a Mirage 5 nose.

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## Ultima Thule

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Older Cyrano II radar and nose cone have been replaced with Australian recce nose cone equipped with I think the Fairchild KA-56 Low Altitude Panoramic Camera.
> 
> 
> like the one here


We have better radar then old Cyrano 2 on our upgraded ROSE Mirages

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## mshan44



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## Readerdefence

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 613647


Hi any info about the number of Mirages with IFR probe 
Thank you


----------



## khanasifm

Readerdefence said:


> Hi any info about the number of Mirages with IFR probe
> Thank you




I have asked this question many time but never got anywhere Grifo 5 was developed for mirage 5 with different antenna size to fit in mirage 5 but paf never went for it and only took Grifo 3 for sqn plus aircraft cover 7 and ccs sqn why ? 
May be f-7 and f-16 were enough and no need for true multi role mirage fleet with a2a on mirage 5 ?

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## mshan44



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## GriffinsRule

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 614066


Nice picture but sadly with serial numbers photoshopped out =(


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## mshan44



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## khanasifm

So all current jf on order will be just enough to replace f-7p and pg that means mirages replacement by jf will not start till 2025 at the earliest and needing to replace 6 sqn x 20 aircraft of mirages not counting ccs sqn means another decade or so ie another ~15 years total so mirages are not going anywhere 

guessing


----------



## ghazi52

Legendary Aviators of Squadron No.9 - Pakistan Air Force ; Cecil Chaudhry , Aliuddin

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## mshan44

*





PAF Mirage Pilot Now Equipped With New French Helmets.*

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## GriffinsRule

mshan44 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Mirage Pilot Now Equipped With New French Helmets.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 617052
> View attachment 617053


Now just need a new French jet to go with it

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## HRK

mshan44 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Mirage Pilot Now Equipped With New French Helmets.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 617052
> View attachment 617053


this look like screen grab ....??? if it is do you have like of the video ???


----------



## Adam_Khan

mshan44 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Mirage Pilot Now Equipped With New French Helmets.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 617052
> View attachment 617053



Both 25 and 27 squadrons have been using them for a long time just that only now pictures and videos are coming out.

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## mshan44



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## nomi007

mshan44 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Mirage Pilot Now Equipped With New French Helmets.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 617052
> View attachment 617053


name of this helmet?


----------



## syed_yusuf

mshan44 said:


> *Is this pilot women ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Mirage Pilot Now Equipped With New French Helmets.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 617052
> View attachment 617053



Is so I think first deputed to mirage


----------



## Viper27

This is a portion from an article shared by Alan Warnes recently about the Mushak upgrade. Interestingly the companies involved are also mentioning a Mirage Modernization Program. Do we have any details on this?

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## Haris Ali2140

Viper27 said:


> This is a portion from an article shared by Alan Warnes recently about the Mushak upgrade. Interestingly the companies involved are also mentioning a Mirage Modernization Program. Do we have any details on this?


According to Alan, it is for the mirages who didn't received ROSE upgrades.


----------



## Viper27

Haris Ali2140 said:


> According to Alan, it is for the mirages who didn't received ROSE upgrades.



Thanks for answering. So it appears the non-Rose mirages would be upgraded with latest avionics which would make them superior to the Rose Mirages?


----------



## Haris Ali2140

Viper27 said:


> Thanks for answering. So it appears the non-Rose mirages would be upgraded with latest avionics which would make them superior to the Rose Mirages?


Don't know man. However it seems Mirages are gonna stay with us till mid 2030s.

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## litman

syed_yusuf said:


> Is so I think first deputed to mirage


no "he" seems to be abdullah.


----------



## Haris Ali2140

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1243491251866996743

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## mshan44



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## khanasifm

Mirages may be getting ... along with mushaq

https://genesys-aerosystems.com/news/super-mushshak-flies-with-genesys-aerosystems-glass-cockpit

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> Mirages getting ... along with mushaq
> 
> https://genesys-aerosystems.com/news/super-mushshak-flies-with-genesys-aerosystems-glass-cockpit


It's nice US private sector is moving in Pak mind You it's not small contract for Mirage Kitts


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## araz

@Dazzler, @airomerix and @Hodor .
Any news of whatis/happening with the Mirages, what sort of upgrading will these veterans be getting. Will it mean radical replacements like radar changes and engine upgrades or is it just someone has thrown a bone to the market to get a decent deal for the super Mushaqs.
Help appreciated.
A

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## Dazzler

araz said:


> @Dazzler, @airomerix and @Hodor .
> Any news of whatis/happening with the Mirages, what sort of upgrading will these veterans be getting. Will it mean radical replacements like radar changes and engine upgrades or is it just someone has thrown a bone to the market to get a decent deal for the super Mushaqs.
> Help appreciated.
> A



The sooner we put them to rest, the better. Somehow, i dont see that happening for a few years.

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## GriffinsRule

Upgrades to the avionics and cockpit instruments for better situational awareness for the pilots as well as getting networked into the AWACS and other platforms for a complete AD picture. Much more important than any engine upgrade, which is not gonna happen anyways since we have the ability to maintain the engines at Kamra and years or expertise overhauling those engines. 
Also, bar a few PA3, other Mirages dont have radars anyways but instead have FLIR and additional fuel. Those Mirages will benefit the most from any upgrade that brings them from analog to a digital cockpit.

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## Nomad40

Bye bye new fighter


----------



## TsAr

araz said:


> @Dazzler, @airomerix and @Hodor .
> Any news of whatis/happening with the Mirages, what sort of upgrading will these veterans be getting. Will it mean radical replacements like radar changes and engine upgrades or is it just someone has thrown a bone to the market to get a decent deal for the super Mushaqs.
> Help appreciated.
> A


I dont think they are going to upgrading the engines, only plausible thing to do would be to upgrade the avionics and as Griffin pointed our better connectivity with Awacs...


----------



## Adam_Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> Upgrades to the avionics and cockpit instruments for better situational awareness for the pilots as well as getting networked into the AWACS and other platforms for a complete AD picture. Much more important than any engine upgrade, which is not gonna happen anyways since we have the ability to maintain the engines at Kamra and years or expertise overhauling those engines.
> Also, bar a few PA3, other Mirages dont have radars anyways but instead have FLIR and additional fuel. Those Mirages will benefit the most from any upgrade that brings them from analog to a digital cockpit.




Additional fuel but where?
Also only the aircraft bought during the 70's alongside the few Libyan and Lebanese ones are left with analog cockpits.


----------



## GriffinsRule

Adam_Khan said:


> Additional fuel but where?
> Also only the aircraft bought during the 70's alongside the few Libyan and Lebanese ones are left with analog cockpits.


Mirage 5 is slightly longer than the 3 and thus carries more internal fuel. 
Yes none of the Mirages bar the Mirage 3s from Australia and the Mirage 5s from France are updated with ROSE, though some of the two seaters seem to have gone through some sort of an update.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

GriffinsRule said:


> Mirage 5 is slightly longer than the 3 and thus carries more internal fuel.
> Yes none of the Mirages bar the Mirage 3s from Australia and the Mirage 5s from France are updated with ROSE, though some of the two seaters seem to have gone through some sort of an update.


IIIDPs went thru ROSE 1 upgrades except, obviously, the radar.


----------



## Maxpane

if we want to upgrades mirages then why dnt we go for atlas cheetha @denel said that we have all necessary data and we can easily replace our deltas with with deltas with new air frames and modern cockpit. may be new 4.5 gen cheetas


----------



## Tipu7

Maxpane said:


> if we want to upgrades mirages then why dnt we go for atlas cheetha @denel said that we have all necessary data and we can easily replace our deltas with with deltas with new air frames and modern cockpit. may be new 4.5 gen cheetas


Mirages are too old to justify any major upgrade. PAF is more keen to work on replacement options.

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## Maxpane

Tipu7 said:


> Mirages are too old to justify any major upgrade. PAF is more keen to work on replacement options.


sir do we have any options ? i mean there are some honourable members who said that US option is not viable .EFt option is messed by turkisk interference then what option we have ?


----------



## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Mirages are too old to justify any major upgrade. PAF is more keen to work on replacement options.


PAF can do a good thing ask vendors for bid to replace Mirages along cost and local support like around 6- 10 billion $$ like India did see what happens would be interesting


----------



## TsAr

Maxpane said:


> sir do we have any options ? i mean there are some honourable members who said that US option is not viable .EFt option is messed by turkisk interference then what option we have ?


There are different viewpoints on the forum, no member is representing PAF here, only PAF knows what options it is looking into and at what stage they are at. These discussions cannot be held openly in the public.



mingle said:


> PAF can do a good thing ask vendors for bid to replace Mirages along cost and local support like around 6- 10 billion $$ like India did see what happens would be interesting


inorder to do that you need to have cash on you, unfortunately that is missing.


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## Trailer23



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## mshan44



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## Incog_nito

mshan44 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Mirage Pilot Now Equipped With New French Helmets.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 617052
> View attachment 617053


So, this clears that it might be a HMD.

I guess PAF should consider some Grippen E/F and maybe with license production in Pakistan if it can be procured in high numbers.

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## khanasifm

http://www.uit-pak.com/services/


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## Adam_Khan

Oz@ir Akhtar said:


> So, this clears that it might be a HMD.
> 
> I guess PAF should consider some Grippen E/F and maybe with license production in Pakistan if it can be procured in high numbers.



It's a simple french helmet which is in use for more than 10 years now,beyond that there is nothing special about it.

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## mshan44



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## Basel

mingle said:


> It's nice US private sector is moving in Pak mind You it's not small contract for Mirage Kitts



Are we looking for something like SLEP of F-16s for our Mirages??

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## mingle

Basel said:


> Are we looking for something like SLEP of F-16s for our Mirages??


I hope not too old to spend money PAF should give tender for Mirage replacement when ever time is right along her specifications

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## airomerix

araz said:


> @Dazzler, @airomerix and @Hodor .
> Any news of whatis/happening with the Mirages, what sort of upgrading will these veterans be getting. Will it mean radical replacements like radar changes and engine upgrades or is it just someone has thrown a bone to the market to get a decent deal for the super Mushaqs.
> Help appreciated.
> A



Hi Araz, 

Apologies for the delayed response. 

This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems. 

A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability) 

It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;

i) Primary and multifunction displays
ii) ADCs (air data computers) 
iii) Navigation integration
iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system) 
v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
vii) Mission computers and stores management system
viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on. 

In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason. 

Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.

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## araz

airomerix said:


> Hi Araz,
> 
> Apologies for the delayed response.
> 
> This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems.
> 
> A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability)
> 
> It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;
> 
> i) Primary and multifunction displays
> ii) ADCs (air data computers)
> iii) Navigation integration
> iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system)
> v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
> vii) Mission computers and stores management system
> viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on.
> 
> In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason.
> 
> Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.


They do have a max of 5 HPs. So A2A might be severely limited . However for A2S and A2G roles they have proven their worth. I have always thought that PAF retains M3/5s for A2G roles primarily due to the SOWs which have been integrated but also the low price of the platform. With the French having stopped production PAC feels a bit more inclined to experiment with the platform as compared to the 16s where there are serious limitations as to what can be or cannot be done

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## Viper27

airomerix said:


> Hi Araz,
> 
> Apologies for the delayed response.
> 
> This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems.
> 
> A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability)
> 
> It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;
> 
> i) Primary and multifunction displays
> ii) ADCs (air data computers)
> iii) Navigation integration
> iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system)
> v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
> vii) Mission computers and stores management system
> viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on.
> 
> In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason.
> 
> Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.



Mirage 3, 5 or both?


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## Path-Finder

airomerix said:


> Hi Araz,
> 
> Apologies for the delayed response.
> 
> This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems.
> 
> A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability)
> 
> It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;
> 
> i) Primary and multifunction displays
> ii) ADCs (air data computers)
> iii) Navigation integration
> iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system)
> v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
> vii) Mission computers and stores management system
> viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on.
> 
> In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason.
> 
> Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.


So Cheetah upgrades.


----------



## airomerix

araz said:


> They do have a max of 5 HPs. So A2A might be severely limited . However for A2S and A2G roles they have proven their worth. I have always thought that PAF retains M3/5s for A2G roles primarily due to the SOWs which have been integrated but also the low price of the platform. With the French having stopped production PAC feels a bit more inclined to experiment with the platform as compared to the 16s where there are serious limitations as to what can be or cannot be done



Yes. We can practically manufacture a Mirage from scratch (minus the engine). Even though we have overhauled some Mirage engines upto 20 times over the past 40 years. But yes, the expertise is there. 

As for capabilities, A2A is definitely not there since it requires a decent airborne intercept radar which is very expensive. SABR AESA of Block 70 was quoted to PAF at $2.8M when the assessment was done. More than the cost of an entire basic Mirage with all electronics.



Viper27 said:


> Mirage 3, 5 or both?



Both



Path-Finder said:


> So Cheetah upgrades.



A little more lethal in terms of anti surface.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

airomerix said:


> Hi Araz,
> 
> Apologies for the delayed response.
> 
> This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems.
> 
> A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability)
> 
> It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;
> 
> i) Primary and multifunction displays
> ii) ADCs (air data computers)
> iii) Navigation integration
> iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system)
> v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
> vii) Mission computers and stores management system
> viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on.
> 
> In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason.
> 
> Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.


Any chance they'll attempt zero-houring the airframe? According to @denel the jigs for the Cheetah are still around in South Africa, so if still the case, they could build new wings, tail, etc?

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## Maxpane

so mirages are staying till project Azm and PAF is doing cheetah type upgrade


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## Zulfiqar

airomerix said:


> Yes. We can practically manufacture a Mirage from scratch (minus the engine). Even though we have overhauled some Mirage engines upto 20 times over the past 40 years. But yes, the expertise is there.
> 
> As for capabilities, A2A is definitely not there since it requires a decent airborne intercept radar which is very expensive. SABR AESA of Block 70 was quoted to PAF at $2.8M when the assessment was done. More than the cost of an entire basic Mirage with all electronics.
> 
> 
> 
> Both
> 
> 
> 
> A little more lethal in terms of anti surface.



So will this upgrade mean that the same aircraft will become multirole i.e (A2A/A2G role on same plane) or will we have two separate paths for upgrade.

As currently many mirages either carry a radar in nose or a FLIR IIRC.


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## airomerix

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Any chance they'll attempt zero-houring the airframe? According to @denel the jigs for the Cheetah are still around in South Africa, so if still the case, they could build new wings, tail, etc?



We have our own jigs at MRF which undertake similar tasks of reinforcing the wings, rudder and. other surfaces. We have achieved significant capacity building in many areas such as we have been manufacturing glass canopies of Mirages, F-7s and JF-17s for years now. 

We need expertise in the electronic aspect of the upgrade which is challenging to reverse engineer. We have absolutely no challenges with the structural integrity of the Mirages.



Zulfiqar said:


> So will this upgrade mean that the same aircraft will become multirole i.e (A2A/A2G role on same plane) or will we have two separate paths for upgrade.
> 
> As currently many mirages either carry a radar in nose or a FLIR IIRC.



We stopped relying on Mirages for A2A after F-16s landed in early 80s It is simply not good enough now. 

It still carries two sidewinders that too for self defense purposes (for the same reason why AH-1Z carries two sidewinders)

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## Zulfiqar

airomerix said:


> We have our own jigs at MRF which undertake similar tasks of reinforcing the wings, rudder and. other surfaces. We have achieved significant capacity building in many areas such as we have been manufacturing glass canopies of Mirages, F-7s and JF-17s for years now.
> 
> We need expertise in the electronic aspect of the upgrade which is challenging to reverse engineer. We have absolutely no challenges with the structural integrity of the Mirages.
> 
> 
> 
> We stopped relying on Mirages for A2A after F-16s landed in early 80s It is simply not good enough now.
> 
> It still carries two sidewinders that too for self defense purposes (for the same reason why AH-1Z carries two sidewinders)



OK thanks. One more question?

How much longer in terms of flying hours/yrs can we support mirages (speaking from structural point of view)?


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## airomerix

Zulfiqar said:


> OK thanks. One more question?
> 
> How much longer in terms of flying hours/yrs can we support mirages (speaking from structural point of view)?


 
I dont know and this is highly classified information. But the airframes selection for upgradation is a clinical process. The upgraded frames will have the longest legs and/or service life left.

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## The Raven

If I recall correctly, the wings are "zeroed" during complete overhaul, I recall reading this in one of Alan Warnes' articles in Airforces Monthly magazine many years ago.

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## Path-Finder

airomerix said:


> A little more lethal in terms of anti surface.


more lethality the merrier.


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## Saifullah

airomerix said:


> Hi Araz,
> 
> Apologies for the delayed response.
> 
> This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems.
> 
> A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability)
> 
> It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;
> 
> i) Primary and multifunction displays
> ii) ADCs (air data computers)
> iii) Navigation integration
> iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system)
> v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
> vii) Mission computers and stores management system
> viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on.
> 
> In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason.
> 
> Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.



Why go to CATIC or SA for upgradation of all the mentioned components.

1) We are manufacturing MFDs inhouse for JF, why not reuse them for Mirage as well ?
2) Why not use the ADC used in JF as well. It will be easier for upgradation, maintenance, Integration.
3), 4) and 5) All these things are being manufactured inhouse for JF17 and can be used for Mirage as well.
6) and 7) We already have a system in JF which is quite matured and systems have been integrated.

It just seems no brainer to go for anything else when you have homegrown Tech which can be used for this upgrade. It will streamline the upgradation and maintenance of platforms. It just makes no sense to go outside when you have everything available at home.


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## mingle

airomerix said:


> Yes. We can practically manufacture a Mirage from scratch (minus the engine). Even though we have overhauled some Mirage engines upto 20 times over the past 40 years. But yes, the expertise is there.
> 
> As for capabilities, A2A is definitely not there since it requires a decent airborne intercept radar which is very expensive. SABR AESA of Block 70 was quoted to PAF at $2.8M when the assessment was done. More than the cost of an entire basic Mirage with all electronics.
> 
> 
> 
> Both
> 
> 
> 
> A little more lethal in terms of anti surface.


Why not putt Chinese engine WS13 or RD 93 engine instead of ATAR like Israel did with Mirage 5 after putting F4 engine called Nasher


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## airomerix

Saifullah said:


> Why go to CATIC or SA for upgradation of all the mentioned components.
> 
> 1) We are manufacturing MFDs inhouse for JF, why not reuse them for Mirage as well ?
> 2) Why not use the ADC used in JF as well. It will be easier for upgradation, maintenance, Integration.
> 3), 4) and 5) All these things are being manufactured inhouse for JF17 and can be used for Mirage as well.
> 6) and 7) We already have a system in JF which is quite matured and systems have been integrated.
> 
> It just seems no brainer to go for anything else when you have homegrown Tech which can be used for this upgrade. It will streamline the upgradation and maintenance of platforms. It just makes no sense to go outside when you have everything available at home.



There is no such thing as 'one size fits all'. Especially with assets which are tasked with high profile missions.

JF-17s cockpit layout, components are very very different. It has a way bigger cockpit compared to a Mirage. This means even the MFDs, PFDs are of larger size and will require some sort of further development to reduce size, maintain aperature, reduce motherboard sizes whilst maintaining capacity. We are not paying for R&D for this upgrade. This is an off the shelf solution which has already been developed for different Mirage and Cheetah variants.

However., there are many components that are homemade. APF has developed a very potent RWR which is currently being used by JF's and Mirages. There are thousands of components that make an aircraft, and we are looking at an approach that keeps the aircraft safe in the air.

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## Dazzler

airomerix said:


> However., there are many components that are homemade. APF has developed a very potent RWR which is currently being used by JF's and Mirages. There are thousands of components that make an aircraft, and we are looking at an approach that keeps the aircraft safe in the air.



Rose Mirages are fitted with localized kj-8602A RWRs. Did APF made a new one?


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## airomerix

Dazzler said:


> Rose Mirages are fitted with localized kj-8602A RWRs. Did APF made a new one?



New iterations are in works all the time. The KJ-8602 and A version were made in collaboration with CEIEC. By different iterations, I mean the expansion of threat library, incorporating more durable IC's, anit-jam sensors etc.

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## Dazzler

airomerix said:


> New iterations are in works all the time. The KJ-8602 and A version were made in collaboration with CEIEC. By different iterations, I mean the expansion of threat library, incorporating more durable IC's, anit-jam sensors etc.



Is it an improvement over kj-8602A or another system altogether?


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## Nomad40

airomerix said:


> Hi Araz,
> 
> Apologies for the delayed response.
> 
> This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems.
> 
> A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability)
> 
> It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;
> 
> i) Primary and multifunction displays
> ii) ADCs (air data computers)
> iii) Navigation integration
> iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system)
> v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
> vii) Mission computers and stores management system
> viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on.
> 
> In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason.
> 
> Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.


Hi @airomerix .
It Certainly is Beautiful to look at and a unique experience to hear the noise nay song of this Air craft.

superior flying characteristics ?. I have speculations that it is an unforgiving air craft to fly especially at low altitude and I would suspect it will prove to be an uncomfortable ride at low levels ?

This is purely an Intellect Improvement opportunity for me.

Regards.

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## untitled

airomerix said:


> SABR AESA of Block 70 was quoted to PAF at $2.8M when the assessment was done. More than the cost of an entire basic Mirage with all electronics.


Were other AESA Radars considered too?


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## mingle

untitled said:


> Were other AESA Radars considered too?


Why not vixen or leonardo AESA for Mirages



Oz@ir Akhtar said:


> So, this clears that it might be a HMD.
> 
> I guess PAF should consider some Grippen E/F and maybe with license production in Pakistan if it can be procured in high numbers.


Saab gives this opportunity with deal why not Gripen to replace all mirages with one flat rate deal local manufacturing and also make induction of some Chinese and local weapons integration as part of package I know Saab are desperate about deals but new desparate country will US expect good offers from US too I won't be surprise local F16s production or assembly



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Hi @airomerix .
> It Certainly is Beautiful to look at and a unique experience to hear the noise nay song of this Air craft.
> 
> superior flying characteristics ?. I have speculations that it is an unforgiving air craft to fly especially at low altitude and I would suspect it will prove to be an uncomfortable ride at low levels ?
> 
> This is purely an Intellect Improvement opportunity for me.
> 
> Regards.


Still it's 60s design its like putting hip knee replacement of an elderly fellow but still he is an old soul something will never change.
Pak will be part of corona package from US and institutions like IMF and WB and I feel next two weeks will decide corona peak in Pak if we get through with minimum damage and no lockdown further Pak will be in good shape to continue Armed forces modernization and both US and EU will be part of it throwing few billions into Pak will give theior economies much needed boost


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## Path-Finder

mingle said:


> Why not vixen or leonardo AESA for Mirages


it might we worth for the Turkish F16 upgrades to become viable.

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## Adam_Khan

Path-Finder said:


> it might we worth for the Turkish F16 upgrades to become viable.



The radar alone would cost as much as the airframe,much better just to upgrade the NAV/ATTACK systems on the non-upgraded Mirages and we have quite a few of them still flying with gunsights and complete analogue gadgets.


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## Incog_nito

mingle said:


> Why not vixen or leonardo AESA for Mirages
> 
> 
> Saab gives this opportunity with deal why not Gripen to replace all mirages with one flat rate deal local manufacturing and also make induction of some Chinese and local weapons integration as part of package I know Saab are desperate about deals but new desparate country will US expect good offers from US too I won't be surprise local F16s production or assembly
> 
> 
> Still it's 60s design its like putting hip knee replacement of an elderly fellow but still he is an old soul something will never change.
> Pak will be part of corona package from US and institutions like IMF and WB and I feel next two weeks will decide corona peak in Pak if we get through with minimum damage and no lockdown further Pak will be in good shape to continue Armed forces modernization and both US and EU will be part of it throwing few billions into Pak will give theior economies much needed boost



My honest point of view is that PAF should ask Saab for a deal similar to Brazil where they are procuring limited numbers but with local assembly.

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## Reddawn

airomerix said:


> New iterations are in works all the time. The KJ-8602 and A version were made in collaboration with CEIEC. By different iterations, I mean the expansion of threat library, incorporating more durable IC's, anit-jam sensors etc.



will these mirages replace the ROSE Mirages in service or complement them?


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## Saifullah

airomerix said:


> There is no such thing as 'one size fits all'. Especially with assets which are tasked with high profile missions.
> 
> JF-17s cockpit layout, components are very very different. It has a way bigger cockpit compared to a Mirage. This means even the MFDs, PFDs are of larger size and will require some sort of further development to reduce size, maintain aperature, reduce motherboard sizes whilst maintaining capacity. We are not paying for R&D for this upgrade. This is an off the shelf solution which has already been developed for different Mirage and Cheetah variants.
> 
> However., there are many components that are homemade. APF has developed a very potent RWR which is currently being used by JF's and Mirages. There are thousands of components that make an aircraft, and we are looking at an approach that keeps the aircraft safe in the air.



Cheetah variant and most of variants were developed in 80s or 90s, are they really going to have better and miniaturized avionics in them ?

I can understand that you can't pick Jf17's cockpit and fit it into Mirage but all the hardware components are individually being manufactured in Pakistan. Can we not pick and choose the hardware components and develop software side in house to have our own upgrade package ?

All the components you have mentioned are pretty competitive in size there is not gona be anymore reduction of size of ADCs, Navigation, INS, VHF, UHF and HF, Mission computers and stores management systems.Rather than going for 3MFDs you can go for 2MFDs.

I understand there will be a need for Development in software side but that's a really good thing if we go for in house development in that side. We will not just have a great system but we will also have a great Team of developers who could be used in other projects.

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## HRK

Saifullah said:


> Rather than going for 3MFDs you can go for 2MFDs.


or a one bigger single MFD same as F-5AT






below pic is attached to give relative idea of cockpit of F-5AT which is not more spacious then Mirage-III/V Jet

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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> new A2sea missiles


This would be interesting


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## Saifullah

HRK said:


> or a one bigger single MFD same as F-5AT
> View attachment 619831
> 
> 
> below pic is attached to give relative idea of cockpit of F-5AT which is not more spacious then Mirage-III/V Jet
> View attachment 619834



Theoretically we could procure similar product but we are not manufacturing that and i was suggesting to reuse our current manufacturing products.

MFDs, ADC, Navigation, INS, VHF, UHF and HF secure comms, Mission computers and stores management system except two all other products are being manufactured in Pakistan. Rather than going for a new system reuse our current manufactured products which will streamline the maintenance and integration of new systems as well.

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## HRK

Saifullah said:


> Theoretically we could procure similar product but we are not manufacturing that and i was suggesting to reuse our current manufacturing products.


I understand this, therefore I am suggesting that if it is difficult to install 3 MFDs in Mirage-III or V we should try adopt single MFDs bigger than usual size with virtual division of screen concept utilizing existing inhouse technological base, Garmin suit and F-5AT pictures were posted just as example to indicate the solution which as per the airomerix post is more related to less spacious cockpit.

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## Haris Ali2140

HRK said:


> I understand this, therefore I am suggesting that if it is difficult to install 3 MFDs in Mirage-III or V we should try adopt single MFDs bigger than usual size with virtual division of screen concept utilizing existing inhouse technological base, Garmin suit and F-5AT pictures were posted just as example to indicate the solution which as per the airomerix post is more related to less spacious cockpit.


@Saifullah 
$$$$$$$$

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## HRK

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @Saifullah
> $$$$$$$$


already stated 


HRK said:


> we should try adopt single MFDs bigger than usual size with virtual division of screen concept *utilizing existing inhouse technological base*


so our own expertise in hardware and software would be employed .....


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## Saifullah

HRK said:


> I understand this, therefore I am suggesting that if it is difficult to install 3 MFDs in Mirage-III or V we should try adopt single MFDs bigger than usual size with virtual division of screen concept utilizing existing inhouse technological base, Garmin suit and F-5AT pictures were posted just as example to indicate the solution which as per the airomerix post is more related to less spacious cockpit.



Yup i got your point regarding MFD.
We could use 2 MFDs which are more than enough. We could also go for single larger MFD but it would need work and it's not being manufactured in house. Also we have manufacturing capability for smaller MFD which can be maintained incase it gets defective etc. Software side will also require less work as well.

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## Basel

airomerix said:


> There is no such thing as 'one size fits all'. Especially with assets which are tasked with high profile missions.
> 
> JF-17s cockpit layout, components are very very different. It has a way bigger cockpit compared to a Mirage. This means even the MFDs, PFDs are of larger size and will require some sort of further development to reduce size, maintain aperature, reduce motherboard sizes whilst maintaining capacity. We are not paying for R&D for this upgrade. This is an off the shelf solution which has already been developed for different Mirage and Cheetah variants.
> 
> However., there are many components that are homemade. APF has developed a very potent RWR which is currently being used by JF's and Mirages. There are thousands of components that make an aircraft, and we are looking at an approach that keeps the aircraft safe in the air.



Are we going to upgrade our mirages like Israel did with Kfir block-60 or better??

Israel is even going further by developing Kfir NG.
https://www.janes.com/article/89345...-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service


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## Adam_Khan

Basel said:


> Are we going to upgrade our mirages like Israel did with Kfir block-60 or better??
> 
> Israel is even going further by developing Kfir NG.
> https://www.janes.com/article/89345...-return-sri-lanka-and-ecuador-jets-to-service



It's highly unlikely that the upgrade would be that radical,our Mirages are attack oriented while the Kfirs carry Python 5 and Derby missiles coupled with Isreali HMS systems.


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## Basel

Adam_Khan said:


> It's highly unlikely that the upgrade would be that radical,our Mirages are attack oriented while the Kfirs carry Python 5 and Derby missiles coupled with Isreali HMS systems.



We can have A-darter with SA HMD solution along with SD-10 with KLJ-7V2 or possibly air cooled low cost Chinese AESA, that combo will make it very potent as Mirages can carry bomb attached with fuel tanks which could be modified or redesigned to carry 2 BVR or WVR AAMs in BVR configuration REK can be used on outer hard points to carry 4 WVR AAMs allowing a 4 BVR and 4 WVR air to air capability.

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## Adam_Khan

Basel said:


> We can have A-darter with SA HMD solution along with SD-10 with KLJ-7V2 or possibly air cooled low cost Chinese AESA, that combo will make it very potent as Mirages can carry bomb attached with fuel tanks which could be modified or redesigned to carry 2 BVR or WVR AAMs in BVR configuration REK can be used on outer hard points to carry 4 WVR AAMs allowing a 4 BVR and 4 WVR air to air capability.



That would be worth more than the price of a 50 year old air frame, also there are enough number of Bvr capable JF.17 and F.16's so don't think such an upgrade would ever be done however there is a need to upgrade the Mirages bought during the 70's with better Nav/attack systems.


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## Basel

Adam_Khan said:


> That would be worth more than the price of a 50 year old air frame, also there are enough number of Bvr capable JF.17 and F.16's so don't think such an upgrade would ever be done however there is a need to upgrade the Mirages bought during the 70's with better Nav/attack systems.



Against a large enemy like India the number are always not enough. With zero time airframe what I mentioned is best option to have and SA can help us in that.

Why Kfir block-60 sell well as low cost F-16 also now its NG version is coming, that bird is also decades old too.

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## syed_yusuf

i think PAF is working on numbers too. and in that turn is trying to upgrade Mirage PA/PA2/PA3 to next version or ROSE i want to call is ROSE4. this will enhance and upgrade a fine machine of yesteryears to modern warfare effectiveness. if i am not wrong, PAF can get min 36 to 44 examples of single seat upgraded over next 2 years with modern cockpit, avionics and other goodies. could also enhance them with bvr capability. we don't have to upgrade the with aesa. for the role a new upgraded grifo S7 version will just do it.

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## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> i think PAF is working on numbers too. and in that turn is trying to upgrade Mirage PA/PA2/PA3 to next version or ROSE i want to call is ROSE4. this will enhance and upgrade a fine machine of yesteryears to modern warfare effectiveness. if i am not wrong, PAF can get min 36 to 44 examples of single seat upgraded over next 2 years with modern cockpit, avionics and other goodies. could also enhance them with bvr capability. we don't have to upgrade the with aesa. for the role a new upgraded grifo S7 version will just do it.


Why not new engine too maybe RD 93 or WS13 what Israel did with theior Mirage 5 putting F4 phantom engine


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## syed_yusuf

mingle said:


> Why not new engine too maybe RD 93 or WS13 what Israel did with theior Mirage 5 putting F4 phantom engine



yes all of that is possible. but reality is different. i highly doubt PAF is looking to extract and upgrade more than they need. Look at Kafir blk60 where did it go. dit IAF bought it. did it sell in the market. we need to be bit realistic. in this day and age we need a fighter that is well connected with other assets, safe, if not cutting edge than relevant. even an upgraded mirage with relevant avionics could deliver a blowing punch. This is PAF not Bharathi Vyue sina. PAF lives in reality. I believe after the upgrades PAF will have 2 squadron equivalent of Rose I, 2 squadron of ROSE3 and now 2 squadron of ROSE -Next Gen. may be they can also upgrade ROSE 3 to ROSE Next Gen and retire ROSE 1 to support these 4 upgraded strike squadrons. i also believe PAF will be inducting some kind fo 5th Gen by mid of next decade that is 2025. PAF bought 28 single seat PA and 28 single seat PA2/3 Mirage 5's. if i am not wrong PAF still operates more than 40 of these PA/PA2/PA3. This also means that Mirage deal with egypt did not materialized.

after all PAF needs to keep 20 fighter squadrons and keep them all relevant vis-a-vis modern battlefield

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## GriffinsRule

I think as some other members have also opined, the upgrade should be to replace the antiquated avionics which are probably impossible to maintain now and not very effective. Similarly, Pakistan has so many different variants of Mirages, that makes training very complex as each type has gauges and dials in different locations and the cockpit layouts are different. 
A new modernized glass cockpit will not only save time, money and streamline training, it also offers a huge safety factor. 
Then there is the combat enhancements that come with better integration with your awacs using datalinks and significantly improve the pilots situational awareness. And that's not even counting newer radar or other systems. Overall a good move that should make these aircraft safer and cheaper to fly and maintain, while also improving the combat potential.

My wishlist; try making them with 2 piece glass canopies like the F-7PGs

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## nomi007

I think PAF plans for Mirages are very clear


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## Max Pain

airomerix said:


> Hi Araz,
> 
> Apologies for the delayed response.
> 
> This Mirage upgrade was initially negotiated with CATIC which didn't go through due to gaps in capability maturity of a few systems.
> 
> A South African is being appointed to carry out this upgrade to a limited number (around 2 sqns initially) of latest Mirage (with A2A capability)
> 
> It's a full avionics upgrade which includes;
> 
> i) Primary and multifunction displays
> ii) ADCs (air data computers)
> iii) Navigation integration
> iv) INS (Intertial nagaition system)
> v) VHF, UHF and HF secure comms
> vii) Mission computers and stores management system
> viii) All out weapons integration include precision guided A2G weapons, Stand off weapons, Anti ship capabilities with some new A2sea missiles and so on.
> 
> In short, its an all out upgradation of Mirage capability. I mentioned 2-3 weeks ago, Mirages are here to stay. I said it for a reason.
> 
> Mirage will serve as a dedicated strike platform due to its superior flying characteristics, decent payload and fleet wide availability.



This very well could be our first step towards a Pakistani Kfir Block 60.



airomerix said:


> Yes. We can practically manufacture a Mirage from scratch (minus the engine). Even though we have overhauled some Mirage engines upto 20 times over the past 40 years. But yes, the expertise is there.
> 
> As for capabilities, A2A is definitely not there since it requires a decent airborne intercept radar which is very expensive. SABR AESA of Block 70 was quoted to PAF at $2.8M when the assessment was done. More than the cost of an entire basic Mirage with all electronics.
> 
> 
> 
> Both
> 
> 
> 
> A little more lethal in terms of anti surface.


I read that The Atar Series of engines consume a lot of fuel and that can be understood from the fact that that tech started off from the 50's.

Does PAF plan on replacing the engine too in future or are they happy with the ATAR?

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## syed_yusuf

to attack sea targets upgraded mirage needs to have modern radar. dont have to be aesa but modern. may be lkf601e

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> I think PAF plans for Mirages are very clear


Probably will keep two to three Sqdns upgraded for deep strike rest will retire putting Oldman new limbs and even heart won't make him young his soul is old Mirages no matter what we do with them are old souls of late 50s



syed_yusuf said:


> to attack sea targets upgraded mirage needs to have modern radar. dont have to be aesa but modern. may be lkf601e


Why not JF-17s AESA??


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## Ultima Thule

syed_yusuf said:


> to attack sea targets upgraded mirage needs to have modern radar. dont have to be aesa but modern. may be lkf601e





mingle said:


> Why not JF-17s AESA??


age will be the problem???

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## mingle

seven0seven said:


> age will be the problem???


Well when you wana make Baba a young lad then give him new lungs Heart eyes and ears too just giving him limbs won't help

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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> Well when you wana make Baba a young lad then give him new lungs Heart eyes and ears too just giving him limbs won't help


You have to rewire whole Mirage, cockpit has not enough space to install multiple modern MFDs, and how long we are expected to use our Mirages, 2025 or 2030, any idea???, isn't better that we will replace our Mirages with better deep strike jets like JH-7A or J-16 or Su-34

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## mingle

seven0seven said:


> You have to rewire whole Mirage, cockpit has not enough space to install multiple modern MFDs, and how long we are expected to use our Mirages, 2025 or 2030, any idea???, isn't better that we will replace our Mirages with better deep strike jets like JH-7A or J-16 or Su-34


PAF just request to Govt about a separate facility from any western country like loan or line credit not more than 300 to 400 million to repay per year and give a open tender from whole Mirage fleet replacement with specifications like integration of local weapons along Chinese weapons not bigger than $$10 billion I mean make a flat rate I assure you we will get good deal from US or Sweden or Russia if they offer loan rather than spending bit and pieces on a old frame and think about 45 yrs ahead.Don't say about money pulling out another 300 to 400 million a year is not big deal even for Pak Govt or even make F16 s deal with that money and replace all these mirages with them.


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## FuturePAF

syed_yusuf said:


> i think PAF is working on numbers too. and in that turn is trying to upgrade Mirage PA/PA2/PA3 to next version or ROSE i want to call is ROSE4. this will enhance and upgrade a fine machine of yesteryears to modern warfare effectiveness. if i am not wrong, PAF can get min 36 to 44 examples of single seat upgraded over next 2 years with modern cockpit, avionics and other goodies. could also enhance them with bvr capability. we don't have to upgrade the with aesa. for the role a new upgraded grifo S7 version will just do it.



Upgrading some with Turkish avionics and radar can open up their arms industry to supply the PAF, especially in times of war.

Turkish experience with electronic warfare and operating in a high jamming environment like Syria could mean their weapons would be a formidable threat if acquired; Turkish cruise missiles like the SOM.

Also a Turkish upgraded Mirage could serve as a platform for Turkish dedicated EW suite; based on the systems developed for the HAVASOJ program

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> Upgrading some with Turkish avionics and radar can open up their arms industry to supply the PAF, especially in times of war.
> 
> Turkish experience with electronic warfare and operating in a high jamming environment like Syria could mean their weapons would be a formidable threat if acquired; Turkish cruise missiles like the SOM.
> 
> Also a Turkish upgraded Mirage could serve as a platform for Turkish dedicated EW suite; based on the systems developed for the HAVASOJ program


Two things Pak can't upgrade F16s with ozger upgrade by Turkey due to intellectual property rights we need US NOC also for Mirages again we debating about a plane which born in 50s yes for JF-17 I will like to integrate Turkish electronics and AMRAAM or we can have a test bed JF-17 for turkish radar and electronics weapons integration

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## FuturePAF

mingle said:


> Two things Pak can't upgrade F16s with ozger upgrade by Turkey due to intellectual property rights we need US NOC also for Mirages again we debating about a plane which born in 50s yes for JF-17 I will like to integrate Turkish electronics and AMRAAM or we can have a test bed JF-17 for turkish radar and electronics weapons integration



I agree the JF-17 would be a better platform to integrate these capabilities on to, but if we are reserving the JF-17 and F-16 for the air to air role and using the mirages as strike platforms, we should look to integrate some of these capabilities onto the mirages, especially if we plan to upgrade the mirages up to a modern standard.

Ideally we should ditch the mirages and just build more JF-17; customizing them as we see fit. Perhaps the issue is finances, and the PAF is stretching it’s Rupees as far as they can go.

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> I agree the JF-17 would be a better platform to integrate these capabilities on to, but if we are reserving the JF-17 and F-16 for the air to air role and using the mirages as strike platforms, we should look to integrate some of these capabilities onto the mirages, especially if we plan to upgrade the mirages up to a modern standard.
> 
> Ideally we should ditch the mirages and just build more JF-17; customizing them as we see fit. Perhaps the issue is finances, and the PAF is stretching it’s Rupees as far as they can go.


But your point is valid putt more JF-17 on table can carry more load than mirages more versatile.
Yes we have mirage infrastructure but too old to hold on like garnd paa if we big airforce like US they ran F15 F16 combo now F22 and F35. Turkey F16 F4.

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## FuturePAF

mingle said:


> But your point is valid putt more JF-17 on table can carry more load than mirages more versatile.
> Yes we have mirage infrastructure but too old to hold on like garnd paa if we big airforce like US they ran F15 F16 combo now F22 and F35. Turkey F16 F4.



PAF may end up going to 250 JF-17s, which wouldn’t be as bad, if we keep in mind the platform is just that a platform, and we retain the ability to customize as needed.

The mirage air frames will cost more the. They are worth repairing, as the back and forth Denel and I had on this thread months ago ultimately agreed upon.

If the Block III can carry enough of a heavier loadout with a new more powerful engine and stronger airframe and perform nearly as good as other modern strike platforms, then it is ideally suited for the PAF. 

The PAF should go for a strike variant to replace the mirages, especially if it can maintain high sortie rates and quick turnaround times between sorties, which would make a crucial for repelling any attack allow the border and sustaining that support to ground forces as well as repelling enemy Air Force units.

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> PAF may end up going to 250 JF-17s, which wouldn’t be as bad, if we keep in mind the platform is just that a platform, and we retain the ability to customize as needed.
> 
> The mirage air frames will cost more the. They are worth repairing, as the back and forth Denel and I had on this thread months ago ultimately agreed upon.
> 
> If the Block III can carry enough of a heavier loadout with a new more powerful engine and stronger airframe and perform nearly as good as other modern strike platforms, then it is ideally suited for the PAF.
> 
> The PAF should go for a strike variant to replace the mirages, especially if it can maintain high sortie rates and quick turnaround times between sorties, which would make a crucial for repelling any attack allow the border and sustaining that support to ground forces as well as repelling enemy Air Force units.


Ideal platform to replace Mirages are SU35 or EF or F15, F18 super Hornet middle two are expensive then Super hornet along more used and upgraded F16s and JF-17 would be ideal SU 35 issue is cash and US sanctions
If all is not possible then PAF should more F16s in good numbers including new one with favour to integrate French and US antiship SOWs integration.

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## HRK

seven0seven said:


> how long we are expected to use our Mirages, 2025 or 2030, any idea???


 


> he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year.* Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up*


click here
On average Mirage Rebuild Factory-PAC have capacity to overhaul 12 jets, but we know MRF deal with other aircrafts as well, so If we *assume* not all would be Mirages jets in this case I guess at least half of aircrafts would be Mirages jets which mean at least 60 would get overhauled in MRF and then every overhauled jet would be able to stay in service with PAF for next decade

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## FuturePAF

mingle said:


> Ideal platform to replace Mirages are SU35 or EF or F15, F18 super Hornet middle two are expensive then Super hornet along more used and upgraded F16s and JF-17 would be ideal SU 35 issue is cash and US sanctions
> If all is not possible then PAF should more F16s in good numbers including new one with favour to integrate French and US antiship SOWs integration.



these would be better options (especially more new or even used F-16s) if the politics and finances were also on our side. Pakistan after the effects of this coronavirus will have even more limited options, unless CSF money becomes available, we should plan on making the JF-17 the be all and end all fighter of the PAF, similar to how the Gripen is sole fighter of the Swedish Air Force.

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> these would be better options (especially more new or even used F-16s) if the politics and finances were also on our side. Pakistan after the effects of this coronavirus will have even more limited options, unless CSF money becomes available, we should plan on making the JF-17 the be all and end all fighter of the PAF, similar to how the Gripen is sole fighter of the Swedish Air Force.


So true but Pak should play her cards right US will look for orders any deal finance by US is possible

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## syed_yusuf

HRK said:


> click here
> On average Mirage Rebuild Factory-PAC have capacity to overhaul 12 jets, but we know MRF deal with other aircrafts as well, so If we *assume* not all would be Mirages jets in this case I guess at least half of aircrafts would be Mirages jets which mean at least 60 would get overhauled in MRF and then every overhauled jet would be able to stay in service with PAF for next decade


how long will i take 60 be upgraded at 6 a year capacity ~10 years?


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## syed_yusuf

what kind of mirage is this


http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Mirage-III-A3-96/Mirage_A3_96_as_PAF_596?full=1


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## Nomad40

syed_yusuf said:


> what kind of mirage is this
> 
> 
> http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Mirage-III-A3-96/Mirage_A3_96_as_PAF_596?full=1


That is a Mirage 3 with I think a Mirage 5 Recon Camera Nose


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

syed_yusuf said:


> what kind of mirage is this
> 
> 
> http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Mirage-III-A3-96/Mirage_A3_96_as_PAF_596?full=1


Mirage 3EA with Australian recce. nose. Not a standard IIIR/5R nose.


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## HRK

syed_yusuf said:


> how long will i take 60 be upgraded at 6 a year capacity ~10 years?


its up to them I am not sure ..... may be 5 years starting from 2018 but as article suggest 10 year period so could not give the exact time frame ....

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## Pakistani Fighter

mingle said:


> Ideal platform to replace Mirages are SU35 or EF or F15, F18 super Hornet middle two are expensive then Super hornet along more used and upgraded F16s and JF-17 would be ideal SU 35 issue is cash and US sanctions
> If all is not possible then PAF should more F16s in good numbers including new one with favour to integrate French and US antiship SOWs integration.


or J10C



airomerix said:


> PAF at $2.8M


Not much price. Wish we could install these on all our F16s


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## syed_yusuf

HRK said:


> its up to them I am not sure ..... may be 5 years starting from 2018 but as article suggest 10 year period so could not give the exact time frame ....


Where did we got number 60 to upgrade ? Any idea ?


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## HRK

syed_yusuf said:


> Where did we got number 60 to upgrade ? Any idea ?


like I said in my previous post it was assumption based on verifiable facts plz read previous posts related to this post


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## syed_yusuf

HRK said:


> like I said in my previous post it was assumption based on verifiable facts plz read previous posts related to this post


Why I am asking is based on my source number is apx 40-44

Another source is 76

This includes 5f single seat

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## HRK

syed_yusuf said:


> Why I am asking is based on my source number is apx 40-44
> 
> Another source is 76
> 
> This includes 5f single seat


number of 60 jets was just an assumption based of the informations available to in open sources so it have high chances of going wrong ... if you have some idea about the numbers of jets which will receive overhaul on the basis of information you gather from your sources then you could be right, BTW don't forget to add Egyptian Mirage IF [Yes a big IF] we receive Egyptian Mirages then those jet would also receive overhaul in PAC in addition of those jets which already exist in PAF inventory


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## mingle

HRK said:


> number of 60 jets was just an assumption based of the informations available to in open sources so it have high chances of going wrong ... if you have some idea about the numbers of jets which will receive overhaul on the basis of information you gather from your sources then you could be right, BTW don't forget to add Egyptian Mirage IF [Yes a big IF] we receive Egyptian Mirages then those jet would also receive overhaul in PAC in addition of those jets which already exist in PAF inventory


Did we received Horus mirages from Eygpt yet???


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## HRK

mingle said:


> Did we received Horus mirages from Eygpt yet???


as of now no news .... if not wrong they were suppose to come this year

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## mingle

HRK said:


> as of now no news .... if not wrong they were suppose to come this year


I still believe PAF should ask IK to negotiate a deal with US for both new and used F16s along upgrades around 5 billion investment will give enough punch to PAF and also room to retire some mirages and rest F7s can be replace by JF-17 blk 3 spending money on old Souls is good in short term but in long run not viable.F16 JF-17 and some Mirages are way farward for next 10-15 yrs


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## HRK

mingle said:


> I still believe PAF should ask IK to negotiate a deal with US for both new and used F16s along upgrades around 5 billion investment will give enough punch to PAF and also room to retire some mirages and rest F7s can be replace by JF-17 blk 3 spending money on old Souls is good in short term but in long run not viable.F16 JF-17 and some Mirages are way farward for next 10-15 yrs


bro we are here in the first stage of Global recession and you are expecting us to invest 5 billion USD .... bhai only IF we could concluded the signed deals that would be a huge success .... otherwise expect more cuts on defence expenditures worldwide ...

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## syed_yusuf

HRK said:


> bro we are here in the first stage of Global recession and you are expecting us to invest 5 billion USD .... bhai only IF we could concluded the signed deals that would be a huge success .... otherwise expect more cuts on defence expenditures worldwide ...



Yes I agree, a huge defence cut coming to all militaries across the global

We do not know what state those Egyptian mirages will be in, last I remember only one operational squadron of mirage 5 Horus with 23 examples are fly able. What I believe are those mirage 5pa2/3 up for upgrade. Of that between 20 to 23 remains candidate for the upgrade . Add to the number some 18 mirage 5 PA

What ever the case is paf needs to set it's mirage strategy. They have too many versions with various capabilities and it creates fleets with in a fleet syndrome of complexity of training, doctorine and support. These mirages are good machines and with proper upgrade could last till azm is indicted. With proper upgrade will be a leathal machine on its own as well as part of the mix.

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## mingle

HRK said:


> bro we are here in the first stage of Global recession and you are expecting us to invest 5 billion USD .... bhai only IF we could concluded the signed deals that would be a huge success .... otherwise expect more cuts on defence expenditures worldwide ...


I agree but first u must understand word recession means when economic growth turned to be zero or below zero means negative. After covid 19 I don't see any global recession but I see growth in all economies of world including Pak and US don't feared the world layoffs u read every day on paper these are temporary what happens when a company pay to salary some money goes into Employment insurance in case you lost ur job the EI kicks in about six months to feed U time u get another one in current senario companies doing temporary layoffs means they saving money when things will get back to normal they will call U again and also Govt giving stimulus means tax credits to companies this happened to US and Canada in EU and Nordic countries they took other route like Demank and Norway Govt rolled 75% salaries to employers so ppl stay home for month or two so no layoffs there they froze theior Economies.
I don't see any recession beacuse things gona pick up very quick beacuse at the moment we are at pause kind of situation.
For US investment about 5 Billion is another stimulus to LM F16 branch jobs and local industries we continue to flourish this covid is Max another month not more than that for Pk paying extra 300 million shouldn't be a problem it's win win for both countries
Canada giving about 90 Billion stimulus over Covid 19 and only this Yr Govt of Canada hoping tax returns about 60 billion so what they giving about 30 billion they will take back that 30 too within yr again US giving 6 trillion look at theior size and economy?? IN a year they will take this money back from ppl by taxes US has very low tax regime if they raise. 5% they can fetch out this money in a year or two.

@MastanKhan u remember 2008 Economic crisis??? When Govt bailout GM Ford and Goldman Sachs Baird stern went bankrupt?? Within two year I remember they all paid the money back to US Govt coffers.
This one is not that bad as 2008 crisis was and reason Defence secretary Esper called Bajwa third time I believe they will offer Pak equipment but not used one probably new one like DSA already cleared bugaria 8 F16s along P8 to different countries expect for Pak new and used F16s along more AH1Z they probably won't allow turkish engines Navy looking jet Maritime petrol Aircraft they push for P8 for PIA for new 787.
US is World Ecomic Power Hub I beleive on US economic resilience no doubt in my mind I hope in month or two life will back to normal about 90%.

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## mshan44



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## mingle

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 620904


Alan Warnes pic


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## HRK

mingle said:


> I agree but first u must understand word recession means when economic growth turned to be zero or below zero means negative. After covid 19 I don't see any global recession but I see growth in all economies of world including Pak and US don't feared the world layoffs u read every day on paper these are temporary what happens when a company pay to salary some money goes into Employment insurance in case you lost ur job the EI kicks in about six months to feed U time u get another one in current senario companies doing temporary layoffs means they saving money when things will get back to normal they will call U again and also Govt giving stimulus means tax credits to companies this happened to US and Canada in EU and Nordic countries they took other route like Demank and Norway Govt rolled 75% salaries to employers so ppl stay home for month or two so no layoffs there they froze theior Economies.
> I don't see any recession beacuse things gona pick up very quick beacuse at the moment we are at pause kind of situation.
> For US investment about 5 Billion is another stimulus to LM F16 branch jobs and local industries we continue to flourish this covid is Max another month not more than that for Pk paying extra 300 million shouldn't be a problem it's win win for both countries
> Canada giving about 90 Billion stimulus over Covid 19 and only this Yr Govt of Canada hoping tax returns about 60 billion so what they giving about 30 billion they will take back that 30 too within yr again US giving 6 trillion look at theior size and economy?? IN a year they will take this money back from ppl by taxes US has very low tax regime if they raise. 5% they can fetch out this money in a year or two.


Dear I don't want to act as pessimistic but I am not much hopeful _if situation does not become stable in maximum one month_ then globally we are heading for a Recession, in simplest way I will try to explain the current situation as

- Currently demand specially in consumer segment is falling

- It is not just because of temporary layoff due to pandemic, but even after pandemic common pattern of demand will not remain same as it was earlier and general consumer, business and governments would increase their expenditure related to health as current pandemic has exposed heath sector of every country.

- Though all the business related to health would see growth but the issue is Health is a highly technical sector and it would not be able to accomodate general workers.

- Another sector which may see positive trend would be ICT again a very technical sector with comparatively limited job opportunities for small segment of job market, so in both cases *unemployment rate would be high*

- At Government level when expenses would increase with decrease income [both Tax and non-tax based] Governments all over the world will be forced to *Reallocate the Resources by *cutting expenses from other sectors.

- Due to the decrease in demand in many sectors confidence of investors in those sectors would be shaken, they too would face a situation where they might have to take the decision of extreme cost cutting or to disinvest in both cases it will affect job market and income of general consumer.

- Now here recall the Trade war which may increase after pandemic b/w the countries to safeguard their domestic economy and to create job opportunities in domestic market

- Decrease in Demand and Trade wars may force business to reduce prices to increase the demand which may trigger *Deflation* 

- Low Oil prices is also another factor which this time if not handle properly would affect negatively as it will effect Renewable Energy and Shale Oil and Gas Industries, on the other hand it will decrease the revenue of oil producing countries specially in Middle East where foreign labour from many countries are employed.

- Decrease of income due to low oil price and increase of expenses due to multiple war in Middle East would negatively affect both eastern and western countries as Middle east is a big consumer market for the western goods and services and it is a valuable source of Foreign Remittance of many developing Asian countries.

So in short due to the factors stated below:

- Reallocation of Resources
- Decrease of Demand [due to many factors]
- High Unemployment Rate and
- Deflation

Global Recession will be Triggered If somehow we fail to control the unemployment or maintain [ideally increase] the demand Globally.

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## mingle

HRK said:


> Dear I don't want to act as pessimistic but I am not much hopeful _if situation does not become stable in maximum one month_ then globally we are heading for a Recession, in simplest way I will try to explain the current situation as
> 
> - Currently demand specially in consumer segment is falling
> 
> - It is not just because of temporary layoff due to pandemic, but even after pandemic common pattern of demand will not remain same as it was earlier and general consumer, business and governments would increase their expenditure related to health as current pandemic has exposed heath sector of every country.
> 
> - Though all the business related to health would see growth but the issue is Health is a highly technical sector and it would not be able to accomodate general workers.
> 
> - Another sector which may see positive trend would be ICT again a very technical sector with comparatively limited job opportunities for small segment of job market, so in both cases *unemployment rate would be high*
> 
> - At Government level when expenses would increase with decrease income [both Tax and non-tax based] Governments all over the world will be forced to *Reallocate the Resources by *cutting expenses from other sectors.
> 
> - Due to the decrease in demand in many sectors confidence of investors in those sectors would be shaken, they too would face a situation where they might have to take the decision of extreme cost cutting or to disinvest in both cases it will affect job market and income of general consumer.
> 
> - Now here recall the Trade war which may increase after pandemic b/w the countries to safeguard their domestic economy and to create job opportunities in domestic market
> 
> - Decrease in Demand and Trade wars may force business to reduce prices to increase the demand which may trigger *Deflation*
> 
> - Low Oil prices is also another factor which this time if not handle properly would affect negatively as it will effect Renewable Energy and Shale Oil and Gas Industries, on the other hand it will decrease the revenue of oil producing countries specially in Middle East where foreign labour from many countries are employed.
> 
> - Decrease of income due to low oil price and increase of expenses due to multiple war in Middle East would negatively affect both eastern and western countries as Middle east is a big consumer market for the western goods and services and it is a valuable source of Foreign Remittance of many developing Asian countries.
> 
> So in short due to the factors stated below:
> 
> - Reallocation of Resources
> - Decrease of Demand [due to many factors]
> - High Unemployment Rate and
> - Deflation
> 
> Global Recession will be Triggered If somehow we fail to control the unemployment or maintain [ideally increase] the demand Globally.


Don't be pessimistic I live Canada I know what going on ground west can't shut down for ever things will eventually pick up not 100% but 90 % in a month Trump was forcing to reopen at Easter but increase it to May we don't have any lockdown here essential services are running yes private businesses are close but after Easter we will get calirity like Pak Govt is easing in steps same in west things will ease up after Easter schools given date May6 as things will heat up the spread will decrease its a flue and as summer comes flue goes away like any flue there is no cure except staying home and keep taking Advil or in Pak pannadol or Paracetamol things will back to normal but few precautionary steps will remain like Distance cleaning ur hands. Pak can pull out 8 billion package it can pull out some money for PAF too I assure U this time deal will happen little room to play politics since US needs business.
All these stories are assumptions based nothing more all these layoffs are temporary like Air Canada laid off 4500 of her staff now after Covid over they need this staff back to run the operation again till recall these staff will take EI employment insurance for month or two.

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## Armchair

Trying to read in between the lines of @airomerix I think it seems a large number of Mirages will be upgraded as such an extensive upgrade for a few only would not make sense. 

The only point not left clear is if the RD-93 will be integrated ala Cheetah. If so, it would be incredible as the logistics would be simplified and performance significantly enhanced, particularly range.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Armchair said:


> Trying to read in between the lines of @airomerix I think it seems a large number of Mirages will be upgraded as such an extensive upgrade for a few only would not make sense.
> 
> The only point not left clear is if the RD-93 will be integrated ala Cheetah. If so, it would be incredible as the logistics would be simplified and performance significantly enhanced, particularly range.


Didn't the South Africans run into center of gravity related problems with the RD-93? Maybe a further development of the 09K-50 combined with inclusion of composite materials in remanufactured components to reduce weight etc. would be a more viable solution?


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## Armchair

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Didn't the South Africans run into center of gravity related problems with the RD-93? Maybe a further development of the 09K-50 combined with inclusion of composite materials in remanufactured components to reduce weight etc. would be a more viable solution?



I think they figured out how to handle the CoG issues. @denel explained that he was flabbergasted when PAF didn't go for the RD-93 upgrade.

The long-nosed Cheetah's did have a CoG problem, but perhaps due to the elongated heavy nose. 

Later, they added fixed canards to counter this, which also had the benefit of lowering the takeoff and landing speeds.

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## araz

seven0seven said:


> You have to rewire whole Mirage, cockpit has not enough space to install multiple modern MFDs, and how long we are expected to use our Mirages, 2025 or 2030, any idea???, isn't better that we will replace our Mirages with better deep strike jets like JH-7A or J-16 or Su-34


JH7A. Not being manufactured anymore tested by PAF and found lacking story closed.
J16. Built under licence from USSR. OEM will not permit China to export it. Dont know whether a bit of royalty might change that but likely not.
SU34. Unlikely for many reasons. Most cogent being PAF would want a multirole platform. Secondly PAF wants an AESA radar and ability to integrate weapons of its choice. A big NO from the Red bear.
A

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## LKJ86

araz said:


> Built under licence from USSR.


Just for Su-27SK/J-11A.


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## araz

Armchair said:


> Trying to read in between the lines of @airomerix I think it seems a large number of Mirages will be upgraded as such an extensive upgrade for a few only would not make sense.
> 
> The only point not left clear is if the RD-93 will be integrated ala Cheetah. If so, it would be incredible as the logistics would be simplified and performance significantly enhanced, particularly range.


Doubt it. Re engining an old platform is not without its problems. PAF is not going to add another 2.5 million on to a platform for limited use. Plus we do not have enough engines to hand for the switch and if we did it would be for JFT. We have seen no new orders from PAF so where will the engines come from?
However what this points to is PAF battening down to 3 platforms to use till Azm comes on line and there will be no intermediate buy .

A



LKJ86 said:


> Just for Su-27SK/J-11A.


However you would agree that J16 would not be exported by China.
A

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## LKJ86

araz said:


> However you would agree that J16 would not be exported by China.
> A


But it also doesn't mean that J-16 is built under licence.


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## MastanKhan

araz said:


> JH7A. Not being manufactured anymore tested by PAF and found lacking story closed.
> J16. Built under licence from USSR. OEM will not permit China to export it. Dont know whether a bit of royalty might change that but likely not.
> SU34. Unlikely for many reasons. Most cogent being PAF would want a multirole platform. Secondly PAF wants an AESA radar and ability to integrate weapons of its choice. A big NO from the Red bear.
> A



Hi,

This man is so funny in his thought and writing---" it is not being manufactured ".

So---okay---Mirage 3 / 5 are not being manufactured---the saab aircraft for Paf are not being manufactured---.

B-52's B-1 bombers B-2 bombers are not being manufactured either---.

But the country using them has re-furbished the B52's and B-1 for further use for multiple decades to come---.

And the best of all---Quinine not being manufactured in all of the western world---.

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## nomi007

Why PAF did not buy the Mirage F-1 from Jordanians


 
Draken International receives first former Royal Jordanian Air Force Mirage F1.

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> Why PAF did not buy the Mirage F-1 from Jordanians
> 
> 
> 
> Draken International receives first former Royal Jordanian Air Force Mirage F1.


Jordan restructure theior Armed forces they have C130, C235, AH1F, F16s for sale didn't know mirage F1.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

If PAF intends to modify the Mirage fleet and keep it flying beyond 2025 it would be worth while if they can explore the Cheetah D modifications. They are much better than our current variants.







Or maybe explore some KFIR variants through a third party!!

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## PakFactor

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> If PAF intends to modify the Mirage fleet and keep it flying beyond 2025 it would be worth while if they can explore the Cheetah D modifications. They are much better than our current variants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe explore some KFIR variants through a third party!!



This Mirage looks like it took steroids or something.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Armchair said:


> Later, they added fixed canards to counter this, which also had the benefit of lowering the takeoff and landing speeds.


Also makes the aircraft unstable in flight. Couple that with a fly-by-wire system, drooping leading-edge, dog tooth, a higher-rated engine and a retractable IFR probe and you've got yourself a more maneuverable aircraft. Want to up it even more? Re-manufacture certain parts of the airframe with lighter materials and did what the Israelis did to increase internal fuel capacity and you've got a longer range. Let's go even further, upgrade remaining worthy airframes to ROSE and then further that with the upgrades @airomerix mentioned and now it's an infinitely more advanced aircraft. Want more? reinforce the wings and hard points to the chin or wing roots and you've got a bigger payload capacity. Theoretically, the biggest problem would be the age of the airframes, irl the biggest problem is money, which if we had, we wouldn't even have been talking upgrading older aircraft.

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## Khanivore




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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> Trying to read in between the lines of @airomerix I think it seems a large number of Mirages will be upgraded as such an extensive upgrade for a few only would not make sense.
> 
> The only point not left clear is if the RD-93 will be integrated ala Cheetah. If so, it would be incredible as the logistics would be simplified and performance significantly enhanced, particularly range.


I don't doubt the Mirage III/5 is a great design for strike, but I still think the JF-17 will become the main attack platform, at least tactically or conventionally. Basically, it's an issue of finding/developing the right types of air-to-ground weapons for the JF-17, not much else (besides integration and testing).

The benefit of upgrading the Mirages, however, is that it would give the PAF dozens of additional strike platforms to use _in addition _to its multi-role assets (read: JF-17). Like, if you can have that extra firepower, why not go for it?

Personally, even if the JF-17 fully matures, and even if the NGFA can carry the strike load, I'd still keep 72-90 Mirage III/5s on hand as wartime strike assets.

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## Armchair

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't doubt the Mirage III/5 is a great design for strike, but I still think the JF-17 will become the main attack platform, at least tactically or conventionally. Basically, it's an issue of finding/developing the right types of air-to-ground weapons for the JF-17, not much else (besides integration and testing).
> 
> The benefit of upgrading the Mirages, however, is that it would give the PAF dozens of additional strike platforms to use _in addition _to its multi-role assets (read: JF-17). Like, if you can have that extra firepower, why not go for it?
> 
> Personally, even if the JF-17 fully matures, and even if the NGFA can carry the strike load, I'd still keep 72-90 Mirage III/5s on hand as wartime strike assets.



Exactly my thoughts. Specially because PAF is outnumbered and outgunned. These Mirages cost about a million dollars or so to refurbish and update. (or so I would assume). 

That is a bargain. They can perform a strike mission as good as any platform in PAF if not better. I'm just worried about the engines, I don't know how many more times they can be rebuilt.



araz said:


> Doubt it. Re engining an old platform is not without its problems. PAF is not going to add another 2.5 million on to a platform for limited use. Plus we do not have enough engines to hand for the switch and if we did it would be for JFT. We have seen no new orders from PAF so where will the engines come from?
> However what this points to is PAF battening down to 3 platforms to use till Azm comes on line and there will be no intermediate buy .
> 
> A
> 
> 
> However you would agree that J16 would not be exported by China.
> A




It would be nice to see that, but at the same time I hope if the F-7PGs are retired, that they are handed over to PAA to use for CAS. Close air support is a clearly identified deficiency in the PA combined arms element.


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## Armchair

Basically, in simple terms, if Mirages are going to be around 10 more years, RD-93 makes sense. Still unlikely to happen though.


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## The Raven

Upgrading the Mirages makes little sense at this stage in terms of cost effectiveness and capability, there's only so much you can do with a dated design and given the age of some of the airframes. And as mentioned above, engine life is another factor. Better instead to focus on adding further capability to the JF-17.


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## Haris Ali2140

The Raven said:


> Upgrading the Mirages makes little sense at this stage in terms of cost effectiveness and capability, there's only so much you can do with a dated design and given the age of some of the airframes. And as mentioned above, engine life is another factor. Better instead to focus on adding further capability to the JF-17.


The main problem with JF-17 is it cannot carry critical weapons like H2/H4 & RAAD. We have to either modify tbe weapons or the plane.


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## The Raven

Haris Ali2140 said:


> The main problem with JF-17 is it cannot carry critical weapons like H2/H4 & RAAD. We have to either modify tbe weapons or the plane.



The H2/H4 are outdated in terms of their tech, requiring 2 aircraft to launch and guide a single weapon. The JF-17 can carry 2x REK guide bombs or 2x CM-802AKG air to ground missiles, which although has man-in-the-loop guidance, offers greater flexibility and firepower. And the RAAD has been around for some time and due for a next generation iteration, which it has. There are other stand-off weapon options for the JF-17 as well, e.g. CM-400AKG. If the Mirages are only useful in their ability to deliver H2/H4 and RAAD, that utility will diminish as these weapons become outdated and superseded by new generation stand-off weapons.

And yes, I'm fully aware of the performance of the Mirage/H2/H4 combo in operation Swift Retort. But, that doesn't remove the fact that the PAF could have done the same job at considerable less risk with the more modern stand-off weapon options it has.

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## Dazzler

Deltas are love... @denel

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## Zephyrus

Haris Ali2140 said:


> The main problem with JF-17 is it cannot carry critical weapons like H2/H4 & RAAD. We have to either modify tbe weapons or the plane.


they will; with time; 
furthermore H4 can and will be properly integrated into the JF17 with two way datalinks Eliminating the need for a controlling the H4


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## AMRAAM

Dazzler said:


> Deltas are love... @denel


Great video.

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## Armchair

controlling with a video link is only an option and it was always designed to work without being terminally guided by a video link. The video link on the 27th was for political and diplomatic reasons.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Raven said:


> The H2/H4 are outdated in terms of their tech, requiring 2 aircraft to launch and guide a single weapon. The JF-17 can carry 2x REK guide bombs or 2x CM-802AKG air to ground missiles, which although has man-in-the-loop guidance, offers greater flexibility and firepower. And the RAAD has been around for some time and due for a next generation iteration, which it has. There are other stand-off weapon options for the JF-17 as well, e.g. CM-400AKG. If the Mirages are only useful in their ability to deliver H2/H4 and RAAD, that utility will diminish as these weapons become outdated and superseded by new generation stand-off weapons.
> 
> And yes, I'm fully aware of the performance of the Mirage/H2/H4 combo in operation Swift Retort. But, that doesn't remove the fact that the PAF could have done the same job at considerable less risk with the more modern stand-off weapon options it has.


You can also solve the H2/H4 limitation by arming the JF-17 with the Raptor III. It's likely compact enough to fit under each wing of the JF-17 -- if not Block-I/II, then certainly Block-III/JF-17B. You could have a single JF-17B deploy to Raptor IIIs, one on fire-and-forget using INS/GNSS, and the other manual operation (with the WSO). 

Interestingly, Denel Dynamics took the entire project offline after showing it off. So, it's possible that the PAF did buy out the project (i.e., @JamD's guess re: the boxed-out 'extended range smart weapon' tested in 2019).

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You can also solve the H2/H4 limitation by arming the JF-17 with the Raptor III. It's likely compact enough to fit under each wing of the JF-17 -- if not Block-I/II, then certainly Block-III/JF-17B. You could have a single JF-17B deploy to Raptor IIIs, one on fire-and-forget using INS/GNSS, and the other manual operation (with the WSO).
> 
> Interestingly, Denel Dynamics took the entire project offline after showing it off. So, it's possible that the PAF did buy out the project (i.e., @JamD's guess re: the boxed-out 'extended range smart weapon' tested in 2019).


That is certainly possible. Also, I think it is no surprise that we have only started to see a lot of new weapons being integrated on the JF-17. Pre-2019 I believe China was integrating (with regards to certification on aircraft not software) weapon systems for us. We have seen many new things (thanks to new avionics integration facility and the dynamics and simulation facility) on the JF-17 this past year: 
1. Unnamed extended range smart weapon (raptor 3?)
2. LGB + Aselpod
3. Durandal 

For the Mirage we have developed A LOT of expertise (models, simulations) at AWC, which is one of the reasons why Mirages are our go-to testbeds for anything new (H4, A2A probes, Ra'ad).

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You can also solve the H2/H4 limitation by arming the JF-17 with the Raptor III. It's likely compact enough to fit under each wing of the JF-17 -- if not Block-I/II, then certainly Block-III/JF-17B. You could have a single JF-17B deploy to Raptor IIIs, one on fire-and-forget using INS/GNSS, and the other manual operation (with the WSO).
> 
> Interestingly, Denel Dynamics took the entire project offline after showing it off. So, it's possible that the PAF did buy out the project (i.e., @JamD's guess re: the boxed-out 'extended range smart weapon' tested in 2019).





JamD said:


> That is certainly possible. Also, I think it is no surprise that we have only started to see a lot of new weapons being integrated on the JF-17. Pre-2019 I believe China was integrating (with regards to certification on aircraft not software) weapon systems for us. We have seen many new things (thanks to new avionics integration facility and the dynamics and simulation facility) on the JF-17 this past year:
> 1. Unnamed extended range smart weapon (raptor 3?)
> 2. LGB + Aselpod
> 3. Durandal
> 
> For the Mirage we have developed A LOT of expertise (models, simulations) at AWC, which is one of the reasons why Mirages are our go-to testbeds for anything new (H4, A2A probes, Ra'ad).


It was tested right after 27 Feb. So can we assume it to be used on 27th Feb?



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'd still keep 72-90 Mirage III/5s on hand as wartime strike assets.


They would be expensive to maintain in a longer term


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## JamD

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> It was tested right after 27 Feb. So can we assume it to be used on 27th Feb?


No. It makes no sense because:
1. We revealed it (only sort of) after 27 Feb so we gave the Indians a nice close look at it before hand?
2. We lobbed a munition that wasn't certified yet on a sensitive mission in which if the targets had missed by a little we could've started nuclear holocaust?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> No. It makes no sense because:
> 1. We revealed it (only sort of) after 27 Feb so we gave the Indians a nice close look at it before hand?
> 2. We lobbed a munition that wasn't certified yet on a sensitive mission in which if the targets had missed by a little we could've started nuclear holocaust?


Yep. Moreover, though as a policy RSA/Denel want to sell to us, it would benefit both them and the PAF to keep these things on the DL as much as possible. Sure, there's a high likelihood of exchanges -- anyone could see the smoke -- but you wouldn't want to reveal the fire.

Finally, the ones trained and experienced with these kinds of SOW are the Mirage III/5 guys. The JF-17 folks will likely start seeing these capabilities through the JF-17B and Block-III, and that's obviously a few years down the line. I suspect some of the Mirage III/5 crew could make their way to JF-17B/Block-IIIs for this as well.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> They would be expensive to maintain in a longer term


Not really. The PAF already absorbed the cost of maintaining the Mirages. The existing logistics across all those air bases, or the MRF and Atar MRO facility, or the heavy integration of those fighters in current ops.

Yes, the cost of operating the Mirages will go up with time, but it's not concerning for a force as large as the PAF. In fact, you have privately owned aggressor firms that can fly Kfirs, Mirage F-1s, etc with a fraction of the support infrastructure of the PAF. If anything, the PAF can make a little money marketing space at MRF.

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## Khanivore

Haris Ali2140 said:


> The main problem with JF-17 is it cannot carry critical weapons like H2/H4 & RAAD. We have to either modify tbe weapons or the plane.


Plus the Mirage 5 can carry 10-14 bombs, which the JF-17 cannot.

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## Shah_Deu

Just made a rough comparison between ATAR 9C and RD-33 based on figures from open source. The difference in the diameters of ATAR 9C and RD-33 looks minor i.e. ~4 cm to be precise. *Diameter is the most critical parameter in case a jet engine-swap is made.* A smaller overall length (almost 1.7m less with RD-33) would mean more space available for fuel or avionics if the swap is successful for instance. Although a higher thrust with RD-33 series of engines would mean more stress on the airframe, but the study could be interesting for PAF. Such studies might act as a reference point for trying newer engines later in JF-17 or Project AZM.

IMHO, PAF has nothing to lose by taking over such a small developmental projects on a regular basis. We already have the raw materials for such a project i.e. spare RD-93s and Mirage airframes in our inventory. A combination of Masters and PhD candidates from NUST or Air University could be handed over the projects to see if it is at all worth it. The project could be further divided into

1. Homologation studies (Physical Integration of RD-93 in the airframe of Mirages)
2. Fatigue and Stess Testing with new Engine on a Testbench (using non-destructive Ultrasonic testing (UT) and/or in Testflights
3. Electronic Integration of RD93 with Mirage's main ECM (Electronic Control Module)

It still might not work and the whole study might bring nothing, but this is what R&D is all about. Negative results also count as results in R&D. On the other hand, a success could bring long term dividends; both on our operational (commonality of engines across the JF-17 and Mirage fleet) and by enriching our R&D skill levels!

Additionally if such a study is successful, we could try to use our expertise developed around the manufacturing of JF-17 airframes to develop newer airframes based on the existing Mirage design by reverse engineering. Coordinate Measuring Machines (CMM) these days could provide exact coordinates of any part (PAF possesses this capability) which could then be exported to any CAD software like CATIA V5, SolidWorks or Siemens NX to generate 3D drawings. These drawings could then be used to carry out FEM calculations with solvers like Abaqus, Ansys or Siemens Nastran to do the stress modeling. CFD calculations including simulations and tunnel testing wouldnt be that thoroughly needed as long as airframe design is carried over. Furthermore, these drawings could then be coupled with 3D Printing technology to print some of the complex parts afterwards. Our JF-17 manufacturing experience including the development of jigs and fixtures, high tensile riveting and surface heat treatment of body panels would be utilized as well.

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## khanasifm

Today’s environment number of weapons is not important but rather precision is

4 gbu can do more than 10 dumb bombs

with advent of small dia now things has changed as well

lastly two pk-84 which only jf and f-16 can carry can do more than 10 dumb 500 ponders


Anyway mirage will do for now It provides numbers and specialized roles which jf will fill but cannot induct 6/7 sqn worth of aircraft is a year or two most likely one sqn per year means 6/7 years after 2024 so mirages are going to be here till at least 2030 At least

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## Bossman

Shah_Deu said:


> Just made a rough comparison between ATAR 9C and RD-33 based on figures from open source. The difference in the diameters of ATAR 9C and RD-33 looks minor i.e. ~4 cm to be precise. *Diameter is the most critical parameter in case a jet engine-swap is made.* A smaller overall length (almost 1.7m less with RD-33) would mean more space available for fuel or avionics if the swap is successful for instance. Although a higher thrust with RD-33 series of engines would mean more stress on the airframe, but the study could be interesting for PAF. Such studies might act as a reference point for trying newer engines later in JF-17 or Project AZM.
> 
> IMHO, PAF has nothing to lose by taking over such a small developmental projects on a regular basis. We already have the raw materials for such a project i.e. spare RD-93s and Mirage airframes in our inventory. A combination of Masters and PhD candidates from NUST or Air University could be handed over the projects to see if it is at all worth it. The project could be further divided into
> 
> 1. Homologation studies (Physical Integration of RD-93 in the airframe of Mirages)
> 2. Fatigue and Stess Testing with new Engine on a Testbench (using non-destructive Ultrasonic testing (UT) and/or in Testflights
> 3. Electronic Integration of RD93 with Mirage's main ECM (Electronic Control Module)
> 
> It still might not work and the whole study might bring nothing, but this is what R&D is all about. Negative results also count as results in R&D. On the other hand, a success could bring long term dividends; both on our operational (commonality of engines across the JF-17 and Mirage fleet) and by enriching our R&D skill levels!
> 
> Additionally if such a study is successful, we could try to use our expertise developed around the manufacturing of JF-17 airframes to develop newer airframes based on the existing Mirage design by reverse engineering. Coordinate Measuring Machines (CMM) these days could provide exact coordinates of any part (PAF possesses this capability) which could then be exported to any CAD software like Dassault Systemes CATIA V5, SolidWorks or Siemens NX to generate 3D drawings. These drawings could then be used to carry out FEM calculations with solvers like Dassault Systemes Abaqus, Ansys or Siemens Nastran to do the stress modeling. CFD calculations including simulations and tunnel testing wouldnt be that thoroughly needed as long as airframe design is carried over. Furthermore, these drawings could then be coupled with 3D Printing technology to print some of the complex parts afterwards. Our JF-17 manufacturing experience including the development of jigs and fixtures, high tensile riveting and surface heat treatment of body panels would be utilized as well.
> 
> View attachment 621248


South Africans have tested RD33 on Mirage 3. TOT is available to Pakistan. Ukrainians have a large number of sealed zero time RD33s available.

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## mingle

Bossman said:


> South Africans have tested RD33 on Mirage 3. TOT is available to Pakistan. Ukrainians have a large number of sealed zero run RD33s available.


If PAF thinking to Run mirage program till next decade then engine change is important same engine like JF-17 has no problem in maintaining them except body whole things should be new

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## Bossman

mingle said:


> If PAF thinking to Run mirage program till next decade then engine change is important same engine like JF-17 has no problem in maintaining them except body whole things should be new


They might be coming, re-engined and full glass cockpit Mirages. We’ll have to rename them as nothing of the old mirage will be left in them.

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## mingle

Bossman said:


> They might be coming, re-engined and full glass cockpit Mirages. We’ll have to rename them as nothing of the old mirage will be left in them.


If this happens it would be nice along F16 s and JF-17 good idea when we have whole factory here pure dedicated strike platform.
I hope PAF will opted more F16s along V upgrades


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## Bossman

Bossman said:


> They might be coming, re-engined and full glass cockpit Mirages. We’ll have to rename them as nothing of the old mirage will be left in them.


Sorry forgot about the new AESA

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## mingle

Bossman said:


> Sorry forgot about the new AESA


Never know money is tight everywhere. 
How about new mirages name,, Strikers,, when purpose is deep strike


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## Philip the Arab

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You can also solve the H2/H4 limitation by arming the JF-17 with the Raptor III. It's likely compact enough to fit under each wing of the JF-17 -- if not Block-I/II, then certainly Block-III/JF-17B. You could have a single JF-17B deploy to Raptor IIIs, one on fire-and-forget using INS/GNSS, and the other manual operation (with the WSO).
> 
> Interestingly, Denel Dynamics took the entire project offline after showing it off. So, it's possible that the PAF did buy out the project (i.e., @JamD's guess re: the boxed-out 'extended range smart weapon' tested in 2019).


Doesn't CM802AKG seem like a better system for JF-17? Engine gives it good range, and much faster speeds. It is also already integrated with JF-17 unlike the Raptor.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Philip the Arab said:


> Doesn't CM802AKG seem like a better system for JF-17? Engine gives it good range, and much faster speeds. It is also already integrated with JF-17 unlike the Raptor.


Raptor III offers a much larger warhead (600 kg vs 200-300 kg) and longer range (280 km).

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## Philip the Arab

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Raptor III offers a much larger warhead (600 kg vs 200-300 kg) and longer range (280 km).


How easy, or hard would integration be? And there are 2 that can be carried right?

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## syed_yusuf

Shah_Deu said:


> Just made a rough comparison between ATAR 9C and RD-33 based on figures from open source. The difference in the diameters of ATAR 9C and RD-33 looks minor i.e. ~4 cm to be precise. *Diameter is the most critical parameter in case a jet engine-swap is made.* A smaller overall length (almost 1.7m less with RD-33) would mean more space available for fuel or avionics if the swap is successful for instance. Although a higher thrust with RD-33 series of engines would mean more stress on the airframe, but the study could be interesting for PAF. Such studies might act as a reference point for trying newer engines later in JF-17 or Project AZM.
> 
> IMHO, PAF has nothing to lose by taking over such a small developmental projects on a regular basis. We already have the raw materials for such a project i.e. spare RD-93s and Mirage airframes in our inventory. A combination of Masters and PhD candidates from NUST or Air University could be handed over the projects to see if it is at all worth it. The project could be further divided into
> 
> 1. Homologation studies (Physical Integration of RD-93 in the airframe of Mirages)
> 2. Fatigue and Stess Testing with new Engine on a Testbench (using non-destructive Ultrasonic testing (UT) and/or in Testflights
> 3. Electronic Integration of RD93 with Mirage's main ECM (Electronic Control Module)
> 
> It still might not work and the whole study might bring nothing, but this is what R&D is all about. Negative results also count as results in R&D. On the other hand, a success could bring long term dividends; both on our operational (commonality of engines across the JF-17 and Mirage fleet) and by enriching our R&D skill levels!
> 
> Additionally if such a study is successful, we could try to use our expertise developed around the manufacturing of JF-17 airframes to develop newer airframes based on the existing Mirage design by reverse engineering. Coordinate Measuring Machines (CMM) these days could provide exact coordinates of any part (PAF possesses this capability) which could then be exported to any CAD software like CATIA V5, SolidWorks or Siemens NX to generate 3D drawings. These drawings could then be used to carry out FEM calculations with solvers like Abaqus, Ansys or Siemens Nastran to do the stress modeling. CFD calculations including simulations and tunnel testing wouldnt be that thoroughly needed as long as airframe design is carried over. Furthermore, these drawings could then be coupled with 3D Printing technology to print some of the complex parts afterwards. Our JF-17 manufacturing experience including the development of jigs and fixtures, high tensile riveting and surface heat treatment of body panels would be utilized as well.
> 
> View attachment 621248




why noy RB199. they are available in ample and BAe will be able to transfer technolog. the engine is turbofan and much more smaller and lighter than Atar9C. Produces 40 kilonewtons (9,100 lbf) dry, 73 kilonewtons (16,400 lbf) wet


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## sparten

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Raptor III offers a much larger warhead (600 kg vs 200-300 kg) and longer range (280 km).


Does it come with ToT?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

sparten said:


> Does it come with ToT?


Probably.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Probably.


Is Raptor III Subsonic or Supersonic?


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## Basel

Bossman said:


> They might be coming, re-engined and full glass cockpit Mirages. We’ll have to rename them as nothing of the old mirage will be left in them.



If Egypt mirages are purchased then BVR capable mirage is possible.



Bossman said:


> Sorry forgot about the new AESA



If we are going like Zero hour airframe / Kfir NG then low cost Chinese AESA or even Grifo-E should be considered as it will add teeth and Mirage will become very capable force multiplier in air to air domain too also will be able to protect it self in war where PAF will need ever fighter to be available for its defined role instead of doing Escort of strike package.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is Raptor III Subsonic or Supersonic?


Subsonic.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Basel said:


> If Egypt mirages are purchased then BVR capable mirage is possible.
> 
> 
> 
> If we are going like Zero hour airframe / Kfir NG then low cost Chinese AESA or even Grifo-E should be considered as it will add teeth and Mirage will become very capable force multiplier in air to air domain too also will be able to protect it self in war where PAF will need ever fighter to be available for its defined role instead of doing Escort of strike package.


What BVR you will integerate in Mirages after upgrade?

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## Path-Finder



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


>


Interesting. So the Raptor III can technically handle a warhead of up to 1,000 kg (vs. the H2/H4's 600 kg). Overall, it looks like a great package, and workable from the JF-17B/Block-III. It would be surprising if the PAF didn't buy it out.

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## Max Pain

Dazzler said:


> Deltas are love... @denel


In my opinion Delta wing aircrafts are the most beautiful looking and the mirage tops them all. such sleakness and elegance.

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## Basel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What BVR you will integerate in Mirages after upgrade?



It depends what Radar you put, if JFT block-2 radar can be fitted then SD-10 will be BVR, one should note that previous Blocks will get AESA radar so used PD BVR capable radar will be free of cost available for mirages.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> handle a warhead of up to 1,000 kg


Weapon Mass is mentioned as greater than 1000kg. Is weapon=warhead?



Basel said:


> previous Blocks will get AESA radar


Will take years for it

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## Nomad40

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What BVR you will integerate in Mirages after upgrade?


No.


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## Basel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Weapon Mass is mentioned as greater than 1000kg. Is weapon=warhead?
> 
> 
> Will take years for it



Will takes years to upgrade all aircrafts but still some will be upgraded and those radars will be available also we can directly get new KLJV2/3 for mirages if feasible.

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## princefaisal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Raptor III offers a much larger warhead (600 kg vs 200-300 kg) and longer range (280 km).


How about SOM-J missile?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Weapon Mass is mentioned as greater than 1000kg. Is weapon=warhead?


You're right, my mistake. Weapon Mass =/= Warhead.

So, the warhead could still be around 600 kg.



princefaisal said:


> How about SOM-J missile?


The SOM is a smaller ALCM (total mass: 500 kg / warhead mass: 230 kg). It definitely serves a role, but it would complement a Raptor III-like weapon (600 kg warhead mass). 

Moreover, Pakistan shouldn't have a lot of trouble developing its own equivalent to the SOM: basically a lighter, shorter-ranged and more compact Ra'ad II. With SOM/Ra'ad ALCM designs, I like the idea of using them for niche roles, such as dropping sub-munitions (on runways and air defence), EMP warheads, etc.

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Interesting. So the Raptor III can technically handle a warhead of up to 1,000 kg (vs. the H2/H4's 600 kg). Overall, it looks like a great package, and workable from the JF-17B/Block-III. It would be surprising if the PAF didn't buy it out.


and, it has a little turbofan/jet as range extender. I wonder If NESCOM can do it to H2/4!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> and, it has a little turbofan/jet as range extender. I wonder If NESCOM can do it to H2/4!


I say we should be switching from H2/H4 to the Raptor III.

I think the Raptor III design draws on the Tariq/Umbani tech. So, I do think the end-user can modularize shorter-ranged versions, e.g., a 120 km with rocket-booster (like H4) and a 60 km range glider (like H2). Basically all from one new platform that can fit under the wings of the JF-17. 

However, we can go a step further and truly go next-gen. If we can at least develop a simple low-cost miniature turbojet engine at home, we could make 120 km / 60 km versions that can cruise. So now, the JF-17s can offer H2/H4-like capability, but with low-altitude launch.

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I say we should be switching from H2/H4 to the Raptor III.
> 
> I think the Raptor III design draws on the Tariq/Umbani tech. So, I do think the end-user can modularize shorter-ranged versions, e.g., a 120 km with rocket-booster (like H4) and a 60 km range glider (like H2). Basically all from one new platform that can fit under the wings of the JF-17.
> 
> However, we can go a step further and truly go next-gen. If we can at least develop a simple low-cost miniature turbojet engine at home, we could make 120 km / 60 km versions that can cruise. So now, the JF-17s can offer H2/H4-like capability, but with low-altitude launch.


I believe Pakistan has already obtained turbofan and turbojet wit all the IP.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> I believe Pakistan has already obtained turbofan and turbojet wit all the IP.


Denel isn't marketing the Raptor III anymore, at least from what I recall. So, there's a chance, the PAF also got this project. Seriously, can you imagine if they did, and in 1-2 years they start deploying JF-17Bs for guided strikes (plus JF-17 Blk-1/2s with IREKs). I'd be at a loss (besides messing India mentally) on why we'd need to buy another jet if we can roll-out more JF-17Bs and Block-IIIs.

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Denel isn't marketing the Raptor III anymore, at least from what I recall. So, there's a chance, the PAF also got this project. Seriously, can you imagine if they did, and in 1-2 years they start deploying JF-17Bs for guided strikes (plus JF-17 Blk-1/2s with IREKs). I'd be at a loss (besides messing India mentally) on why we'd need to buy another jet if we can roll-out more JF-17Bs and Block-IIIs.


Apart from Raptor III I would like Pakistan to obtain other smart weapons from SA, They have a very good lineup of PGM's that will enhance Pakistan strike package options further.
















Some low observational drones

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> Apart from Raptor III I would like Pakistan to obtain other smart weapons from SA, They have a very good lineup of PGM's that will enhance Pakistan strike package options further.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some low observational drones


The KPGM evolved into the Umbani, and the Umbani became the Tariq <-- UAE owns it.

That said, there might be a way to transfer the expertise that went into developing the Umbani/Tariq, and putting it towards the IREK-series. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Raptor III draws on the Tariq's technology too. If the PAF got (or chooses to get) the Raptor III, it should have access to Tariq tech too, and in time, the IREK could evolve into something like the Tariq/Umbani.

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## Philip the Arab

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The KPGM evolved into the Umbani, and the Umbani became the Tariq <-- UAE owns it.
> 
> That said, there might be a way to transfer the expertise that went into developing the Umbani/Tariq, and putting it towards the IREK-series. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Raptor III draws on the Tariq's technology too. If the PAF got (or chooses to get) the Raptor III, it should have access to Tariq tech too, and in time, the IREK could evolve into something like the Tariq/Umbani.


Also, improved Tariq with 300km range or so might be being developed currently. South Africa export block my impede that though.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Philip the Arab said:


> Also, improved Tariq with 300km range or so might be being developed currently. South Africa export block my impede that though.


On the UAE, yep.

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## Philip the Arab

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> On the UAE, yep.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2020K9

Also, UAE stole a lot of South African engineers at it's defense conglomerate. Checked LinkedIn and many are ex-Denel or ex South African defense employees.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Philip the Arab said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2020K9
> 
> Also, UAE stole a lot of South African engineers at it's defense conglomerate. Checked LinkedIn and many are ex-Denel or ex South African defense employees.


Yep. But South Africa actually has an R&D base, especially at the STEM education level. It's a country -- much like Ukraine -- where you can find experts to teach and help lead R&D in Pakistan. Credit to the UAE for vision and the drive, let's hope Pakistan follows suit.

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## Nomad40

If PAF really want its Mirage fleet to be stay in the air for another 10 years they need to change the OLD UNDER-POWERED TURBOJET-------One of the Members asked me About the RD-93 to replace the ATAR 9 and At the time I pointed about some of the Issues but it struck me that the Diameters are similar (1000 mm for ATAR 9) & (1040mm for the RD-93). RD 93 is significantly shorter which will allow for the 'New Fuel system/plumbing' and/or extra space to carry more fuel 

South Africa is one of our major defense partners and They have the Experience with this Engine conversion as they did it for the Mirage F-1 and flew it about 70 times.

It got me thinking that the main challenges would be the re plumbing required and testing of the Turbofan with mirage DSI.

Now I know Mirage is a real sloppy flier at low speeds low altitude and heavy weights but with this new engine: if opted (highly unlikely.......Like super unlikely) some of the mirage are due for GV.


BUT FOR GIGGLES.


Benefits that some with the Rd-93 upgrade

Extended range (deep strike missions).
More Load capacity.
Highly improved flight characteristics (delta design is a very stable design--- but you need an engine).
More reliable and safer power plant.
More efficient in terms of fuel consumption.
400 kg space freed for what ever you want.
Rd 93 g shorter allows you for a whopping 1601 mm of free space or 681.19 feet^3 (volume).

Thrust 
Increase in thrust up to +30% (and we all know what that means)-----with current engine Mirage 3 with full PAY load has a 0.45kn and in Combat configuration 0.62kn. With Rd-93 full PAY load will have 0.635Kn and Combat configuration it will have around 0.82-0.88Kn.



BUT than again mirage ONLY has the ability to carry only the weapons---Like RAAD and/or Raptor which as we know the JF-17 cannot because of lack of ground clearance and we know that the JF-17 can carry more weight than the Mirage--------BUT than again Mirage will be useful for deep strike role and Limited Air to Air------trust me PAF will need bomber in the future against India.

Cheers.



On a side note Say good bye to the new fighter thing.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I say we should be switching from H2/H4 to the Raptor III.
> 
> I think the Raptor III design draws on the Tariq/Umbani tech. So, I do think the end-user can modularize shorter-ranged versions, e.g., a 120 km with rocket-booster (like H4) and a 60 km range glider (like H2). Basically all from one new platform that can fit under the wings of the JF-17.
> 
> However, we can go a step further and truly go next-gen. If we can at least develop a simple low-cost miniature turbojet engine at home, we could make 120 km / 60 km versions that can cruise. So now, the JF-17s can offer H2/H4-like capability, but with low-altitude launch.


Yes----Let the H2/H4 to be JF-17's Business.

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## mshan44



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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 621672


shame this website went down, had some great content


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## Talon

Guess the equipment under the Mirage's belly... Hint : H/R

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## JamD

Hodor said:


> Guess the equipment under the Mirage's belly... Hint : H/R
> 
> View attachment 621801


I will flip if that's Ra'ad II because that is TINY (for Ra'ad).

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## HRK

Hodor said:


> Guess the equipment under the Mirage's belly... Hint : H/R
> 
> View attachment 621801


Durandal bomb local name Hafar anti-runway bomb .....


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## mingle

HRK said:


> Durandal bomb local name Hafar anti-runway bomb .....


Looks Pod to me????

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## JamD

HRK said:


> Durandal bomb local name Hafar anti-runway bomb .....


Too big to be Durrandal (which is small enough to be carried in twos along the centerline).

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## Bilal.

Hodor said:


> Guess the equipment under the Mirage's belly... Hint : H/R
> 
> View attachment 621801


Some unknown type solid fueled ASM?

H/R as in H-SOW and R Darter. So South African connection?

On second thought it could be datalink Pod for H-2/4 for the guiding aircraft.

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## Talon

HRK said:


> Durandal bomb local name Hafar anti-runway bomb .....


No Sir..!



mingle said:


> Looks Pod to me????





Bilal. said:


> On second thought it could be datalink Pod for H-2/4 for the guiding aircraft.


Bingo.. now notice the squadron

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## Adam_Khan

It's the datalink pod for the H series bombs but honestly didn't know that H series was also carried by the upgraded mirages,thought they were only being carried by the Mirage 5PA's.

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## Bilal.

Hodor said:


> No Sir..!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo.. now notice the squadron








You mean to say it’s THE guide aircraft from 27th Feb?

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## Talon

Adam_Khan said:


> Beautiful video of a GIBS in Mirage of 27 squadron,hope the dude doesn't get into trouble for it.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/tv/B-uRs74jBFV/?igshid=1vjng89jkiil2
> 
> 
> 
> It's the datalink pod for the H series bombs but honestly didn't know that H series was also carried by the upgraded mirages,thought they were only being carried by the Mirage 5PA's.


15 Squadron*...I already posted the video in a separate thread. (Not posting from original source mentioned in the thread..kind of)

Yes recently became operational with this squadron.

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## Adam_Khan

Hodor said:


> 15 Squadron*...I already posted the video in a separate thread. (Not posting from original source mentioned in the thread..kind of)
> 
> Yes recently became operational with this squadron.



I stand corrected buddy.

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## Talon

Bilal. said:


> View attachment 621873
> 
> 
> You mean to say it’s THE guide aircraft from 27th Feb?


No not at all and you got the wrong squadron.

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## Shabi1

Hodor said:


> Guess the equipment under the Mirage's belly... Hint : H/R
> 
> View attachment 621801



While trying to figure what this is came across this.
https://en.topwar.ru/111828-yuzhnoa...-mirazhey-i-gripenov-argentina-v-prolete.html

Apparently Pakistan is also the prime potential customer for the Raptor-3 which has a conformal fuel tank so it can fit aircraft with lower ground clearance and another interesting fact is that NESCOM was transferred H2/4 technology and used Raptor wing assembly tech on the Raad. Even if we dont see Raptor 3 in PAF use pretty confident the Raad 2 will use some tech from the Raptor 3.

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## Bilal.

Hodor said:


> No not at all and you got the wrong squadron.



My mistake the insignia seems to be of Ghazi No 22

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## HRK

Hodor said:


> No Sir..!



I am no Sir just a humble learner 



Hodor said:


> Bingo.. now notice the squadron


Actually i had this version my mind as highlighted in below pic .....






totally forget this version

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## Nomad40

w


HRK said:


> I am no Sir just a humble learner
> 
> 
> Actually i had this version my mind as highlighted in below pic .....
> 
> View attachment 621895
> 
> 
> totally forget this version
> View attachment 621897


Is that a buccaneer


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## mingle

Hodor said:


> No Sir..!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo.. now notice the squadron


Zarras??



Hodor said:


> No Sir..!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo.. now notice the squadron


So new Mirage upgrades as @airomerix @Bossman said seems justified new glass cockpit and canopy I hope for new engine too

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## HRK

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> w
> 
> Is that a buccaneer


probably yes ....


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## AMRAAM

Pardon me for the image quality as cameras were not that good few years ago but can somebody guess this place?


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## Talon

mingle said:


> Zarras??
> 
> 
> So new Mirage upgrades as @airomerix @Bossman said seems justified new glass cockpit and canopy I hope for new engine too


Ghazis...not sure about later part of your message but H weapon doesn't need major upgrades for Mirages.



AMRAAM said:


> View attachment 621898
> 
> 
> Pardon me for the image quality as cameras were not that good few years ago but can somebody guess this place?


Easy... Risalpur.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I will flip if that's Ra'ad II because that is TINY (for Ra'ad).
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


It could be the Mectron MAR-1 ARM.

Definitely not the Ra'ad II, the test video shows a larger -- and squarer -- missile.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It could be the Mectron MAR-1 ARM.
> 
> Definitely not the Ra'ad II, the test video shows a larger -- and squarer -- missile.


Yes, just wishful thinking on my part.

Identified as the datalink pod for H4 (I have to admit didn't even think of it):


Bilal. said:


> Some unknown type solid fueled ASM?
> 
> H/R as in H-SOW and R Darter. So South African connection?
> 
> On second thought it could be datalink Pod for H-2/4 for the guiding aircraft.


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## Kabotar

Could be Hajara(it's a cluster bomb).


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It could be the Mectron MAR-1 ARM.
> 
> Definitely not the Ra'ad II, the test video shows a larger -- and squarer -- missile.


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## Talon

HRK said:


> I am no Sir just a humble learner
> 
> 
> Actually i had this version my mind as highlighted in below pic .....
> 
> View attachment 621895
> 
> 
> totally forget this version
> View attachment 621897


On a second look, what's the weapon on the inner Hp? Seems exactly like H weapon but bigger in size and without booster.

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## Bilal.

Hodor said:


> On a second look, what's the weapon on the inner Hp? Seems exactly like H weapon but bigger in size and without booster.



Thats H2/ Raptor 1.

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## Talon

Bilal. said:


> Thats H2/ Raptor 1.
> 
> View attachment 622016


Yeah that's what I said,seems exactly like H weapon just looks bigger than the pictures I have seen of it on Pakistani Mirages and there's no booster attached.

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## Bilal.

Hodor said:


> Yeah that's what I said,seems exactly like H weapon just looks bigger than the pictures I have seen of it on Pakistani Mirages and there's no booster attached.



Looks bigger because we have people standing beside it to give perspective. Like sidewinder looks tiny on an aircraft until you see it being handled by people to get the right idea of its size.

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## HRK

Hodor said:


> On a second look, what's the weapon on the inner Hp? Seems exactly like H weapon but bigger in size and without booster.


its H-2/Raptor-I with South African Air Force probably during developing and testing period ....

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## Suff Shikan

Mai nhn btaonga :p

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## HRK

Hodor said:


> Yeah that's what I said,seems exactly like H weapon just looks bigger than the pictures I have seen of it on Pakistani Mirages and there's no booster attached.


for comparison see the attached pic

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## Suff Shikan

That left one?


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## HRK

Suff Shikan said:


> That left one?
> 
> View attachment 622038


no ....
on portside outer pylon its ECM pod

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## Talon

HRK said:


> for comparison see the attached pic
> View attachment 622036


Yes this clears my confusion,much thanks.

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## Path-Finder

HRK said:


> for comparison see the attached pic
> View attachment 622036

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## khanasifm

JamD said:


> Yes, just wishful thinking on my part.
> 
> Identified as the datalink pod for H4 (I have to admit didn't even think of it):




Never seen a pod with Fins ?? Typically fins are on something which is launched and travels ?? 
Anyway ...



khanasifm said:


> Never seen a pod with Fins ?? Typically fins are on something which is launched and travels ??
> Anyway ...









May be the pod has fins per the blurred image from the product Boucher

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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> Never seen a pod with Fins ?? Typically fins are on something which is launched and travels ??
> Anyway ...
> 
> 
> View attachment 622236
> 
> 
> May be the pod has fins per the blurred image from the product Boucher


Perhaps to help with aerodynamic flight characteristics of the aircraft such as breaking vortexes to form behind the stores/aircraft thus reducing performance. Fuel tanks have fins as well. They also might have a role when jettisoned in an emergency to avoid impact with the aircraft

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## nomi007

Path-Finder said:


> View attachment 622227
> View attachment 622228
> View attachment 622229
> View attachment 622230


thanks for sharing

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## mshan44



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## LKJ86

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> JH 7 in my eyes will only be useful against Mirages if it could carry Heavy Long Range AshMs as compared to Mirages and will therefore will need to be highly escorted by Air Superiority Fighters


JH-7A with VLR AAM

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## Blacklight

Any news on the Egyptian Mirages? What happened to them?


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Never seen a pod with Fins ?? Typically fins are on something which is launched and travels ??
> Anyway ...
> 
> 
> View attachment 622236
> 
> 
> May be the pod has fins per the blurred image from the product Boucher


Fins are blurred.
was away; finally off today and back to base tomorrow. it is a mess from the Covid. Extended out for another 3-4 weeks.
lot of good posts here. will try to read up. looks like lot of development on Mirage front



Blacklight said:


> Any news on the Egyptian Mirages? What happened to them?


There is complete silence, it may be possible it never materialised. knowing EAF, someone else wanted a better cut.



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> w
> 
> Is that a buccaneer


Yes that is Buccaneer. Both Buccaneers and Canberras were designated for deep strike and carrying of atomic payloads.



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> If PAF really want its Mirage fleet to be stay in the air for another 10 years they need to change the OLD UNDER-POWERED TURBOJET-------One of the Members asked me About the RD-93 to replace the ATAR 9 and At the time I pointed about some of the Issues but it struck me that the Diameters are similar (1000 mm for ATAR 9) & (1040mm for the RD-93). RD 93 is significantly shorter which will allow for the 'New Fuel system/plumbing' and/or extra space to carry more fuel
> 
> South Africa is one of our major defense partners and They have the Experience with this Engine conversion as they did it for the Mirage F-1 and flew it about 70 times.
> 
> It got me thinking that the main challenges would be the re plumbing required and testing of the Turbofan with mirage DSI.
> 
> Now I know Mirage is a real sloppy flier at low speeds low altitude and heavy weights but with this new engine: if opted (highly unlikely.......Like super unlikely) some of the mirage are due for GV.
> 
> 
> BUT FOR GIGGLES.
> 
> 
> Benefits that some with the Rd-93 upgrade
> 
> Extended range (deep strike missions).
> More Load capacity.
> Highly improved flight characteristics (delta design is a very stable design--- but you need an engine).
> More reliable and safer power plant.
> More efficient in terms of fuel consumption.
> 400 kg space freed for what ever you want.
> Rd 93 g shorter allows you for a whopping 1601 mm of free space or 681.19 feet^3 (volume).
> 
> Thrust
> Increase in thrust up to +30% (and we all know what that means)-----with current engine Mirage 3 with full PAY load has a 0.45kn and in Combat configuration 0.62kn. With Rd-93 full PAY load will have 0.635Kn and Combat configuration it will have around 0.82-0.88Kn.
> 
> 
> 
> BUT than again mirage ONLY has the ability to carry only the weapons---Like RAAD and/or Raptor which as we know the JF-17 cannot because of lack of ground clearance and we know that the JF-17 can carry more weight than the Mirage--------BUT than again Mirage will be useful for deep strike role and Limited Air to Air------trust me PAF will need bomber in the future against India.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> On a side note Say good bye to the new fighter thing.
> 
> 
> Yes----Let the H2/H4 to be JF-17's Business.


Look RD33 was tested for upgrade if that was to done. To mount RD33 in replacement of Atar9c or 9k is very straightforward. Performance improvement is very very significant. However if an engine choice with minimal effort will be 9k and cost wise.

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## Blacklight

denel said:


> There is complete silence, it may be possible it never materialised. knowing EAF, someone else wanted a better cut.


True, Egyptians are notorious for it.

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## denel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is Raptor III Subsonic or Supersonic?


subsonic.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Probably.


It does if put in contract. For H2/H4 some components were not ToT'ed because there is no lab which can fabricate those components.



PakFactor said:


> This Mirage looks like it took steroids or something.


It is.



CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Also makes the aircraft unstable in flight. Couple that with a fly-by-wire system, drooping leading-edge, dog tooth, a higher-rated engine and a retractable IFR probe and you've got yourself a more maneuverable aircraft. Want to up it even more? Re-manufacture certain parts of the airframe with lighter materials and did what the Israelis did to increase internal fuel capacity and you've got a longer range. Let's go even further, upgrade remaining worthy airframes to ROSE and then further that with the upgrades @airomerix mentioned and now it's an infinitely more advanced aircraft. Want more? reinforce the wings and hard points to the chin or wing roots and you've got a bigger payload capacity. Theoretically, the biggest problem would be the age of the airframes, irl the biggest problem is money, which if we had, we wouldn't even have been talking upgrading older aircraft.


That is too much a wish list. you may then re-draw the entire plane.



airomerix said:


> We have our own jigs at MRF which undertake similar tasks of reinforcing the wings, rudder and. other surfaces. We have achieved significant capacity building in many areas such as we have been manufacturing glass canopies of Mirages, F-7s and JF-17s for years now.
> 
> We need expertise in the electronic aspect of the upgrade which is challenging to reverse engineer. We have absolutely no challenges with the structural integrity of the Mirages.
> 
> 
> 
> We stopped relying on Mirages for A2A after F-16s landed in early 80s It is simply not good enough now.
> 
> It still carries two sidewinders that too for self defense purposes (for the same reason why AH-1Z carries two sidewinders)


wings etc are not the same as re-doing the airframe. The new wings which were sent to PAF from atlas had new alum. alloys which were much lighter than the original - same alloy that was used for cheetah wings. Right now from my knowledge AMF is just patching the wings as required but cannot put a new wing complete - again it comes back to the frame alloys that are needed for the wing itself. We have a specialised output from the alum plants here that cater for such needs in the defence sector; they were also hit hard with TiT imposed tarriffs - the joke.. the biggest buyers were LM/Boeing.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I say we should be switching from H2/H4 to the Raptor III.
> 
> I think the Raptor III design draws on the Tariq/Umbani tech. So, I do think the end-user can modularize shorter-ranged versions, e.g., a 120 km with rocket-booster (like H4) and a 60 km range glider (like H2). Basically all from one new platform that can fit under the wings of the JF-17.
> 
> However, we can go a step further and truly go next-gen. If we can at least develop a simple low-cost miniature turbojet engine at home, we could make 120 km / 60 km versions that can cruise. So now, the JF-17s can offer H2/H4-like capability, but with low-altitude launch.


Actually core technology in both are the same. They came from same design team.



mingle said:


> Why not putt Chinese engine WS13 or RD 93 engine instead of ATAR like Israel did with Mirage 5 after putting F4 engine called Nasher


Isreal's reason for J79 was different. first was to disengage French reliance; next use a commercial jet that had dual purpose. third same support as F4.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This man is so funny in his thought and writing---" it is not being manufactured ".
> 
> So---okay---Mirage 3 / 5 are not being manufactured---the saab aircraft for Paf are not being manufactured---.
> 
> B-52's B-1 bombers B-2 bombers are not being manufactured either---.
> 
> But the country using them has re-furbished the B52's and B-1 for further use for multiple decades to come---.
> 
> And the best of all---Quinine not being manufactured in all of the western world---.




I think PAF does not need the Jh7A but PN does. I think the wrong service has been testing the JH-7As to begin with.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

denel said:


> That is too much a wish list. you may then re-draw the entire plane.



Exactly what I did. Might post it here some time or in some fantasy aircraft thread.


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## araz

denel said:


> subsonic.
> 
> 
> It does if put in contract. For H2/H4 some components were not ToT'ed because there is no lab which can fabricate those components.
> 
> 
> It is.
> 
> 
> That is too much a wish list. you may then re-draw the entire plane.
> 
> 
> wings etc are not the same as re-doing the airframe. The new wings which were sent to PAF from atlas had new alum. alloys which were much lighter than the original - same alloy that was used for cheetah wings. Right now from my knowledge AMF is just patching the wings as required but cannot put a new wing complete - again it comes back to the frame alloys that are needed for the wing itself. We have a specialised output from the alum plants here that cater for such needs in the defence sector; they were also hit hard with TiT imposed tarriffs - the joke.. the biggest buyers were LM/Boeing.
> 
> 
> Actually core technology in both are the same. They came from same design team.
> 
> 
> Isreal's reason for J79 was different. first was to disengage French reliance; next use a commercial jet that had dual purpose. third same support as F4.


Good to see you back. The M3/5 upgradation has taken off although knowing PAF it will remain in the shadows till they want us to know about it.
A


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## airomerix

denel said:


> wings etc are not the same as re-doing the airframe. The new wings which were sent to PAF from atlas had new alum. alloys which were much lighter than the original - same alloy that was used for cheetah wings. Right now from my knowledge AMF is just patching the wings as required but cannot put a new wing complete - again it comes back to the frame alloys that are needed for the wing itself. We have a specialised output from the alum plants here that cater for such needs in the defence sector; they were also hit hard with TiT imposed tarriffs - the joke.. the biggest buyers were LM/Boeing..



I have actually seen wingless Mirages being retrofitted with fresh wings at MRF. 

I'm not saying we are manufacturing these wings in house. But MRF does retain the expertise to resemmble the entire Mirage from scratch. This is why its called 'Mirage Rebuild Factory'. The same goes for F-7. In short, i think MRF does more than just repatching the wings.

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## denel

airomerix said:


> I have actually seen wingless Mirages being retrofitted with fresh wings at MRF.
> 
> I'm not saying we are manufacturing these wings in house. But MRF does retain the expertise to resemmble the entire Mirage from scratch. This is why its called 'Mirage Rebuild Factory'. The same goes for F-7. In short, i think MRF does more than just repatching the wings.


Yes zero hour wings were supplied by Atlas; i am sure more have made their way over as well. 
Reassembling is being done there without doubt. But what we are speaking is the actual fabrication of the entire wing as well airframes. Wings at Atlas under go a rigorous stress test prior to being dismantled and packaged for shipment.



araz said:


> Good to see you back. The M3/5 upgradation has taken off although knowing PAF it will remain in the shadows till they want us to know about it.
> A


Only for today Araz. Back on duty for next few weeks before being rolled off. The Covid situation been devastating here; on top we have a few renegade idiots via various electronic media disseminating bs; tracing the flipping source and getting resource to nab these guys for a good haircut in the slammer. complete prep for any riot situation etc.

It is good to see what is being done for the M3/M5. the radio upgrades are from my company on the M3/M5. and most likely a datalink may be there too.

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## mingle

denel said:


> Yes zero hour wings were supplied by Atlas; i am sure more have made their way over as well.
> Reassembling is being done there without doubt. But what we are speaking is the actual fabrication of the entire wing as well airframes. Wings at Atlas under go a rigorous stress test prior to being dismantled and packaged for shipment.
> 
> 
> Only for today Araz. Back on duty for next few weeks before being rolled off. The Covid situation been devastating here; on top we have a few renegade idiots via various electronic media disseminating bs; tracing the flipping source and getting resource to nab these guys for a good haircut in the slammer. complete prep for any riot situation etc.
> 
> It is good to see what is being done for the M3/M5. the radio upgrades are from my company on the M3/M5. and most likely a datalink may be there too.


World can't stand still like we are now sooner or later life will get back to normal with or without COVID 19 vaccine hold like we now for long gonna destroy everyone. So learn to live with Corona virus.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Yes zero hour wings were supplied by Atlas; i am sure more have made their way over as well.
> Reassembling is being done there without doubt. But what we are speaking is the actual fabrication of the entire wing as well airframes. Wings at Atlas under go a rigorous stress test prior to being dismantled and packaged for shipment.
> 
> 
> Only for today Araz. Back on duty for next few weeks before being rolled off. The Covid situation been devastating here; on top we have a few renegade idiots via various electronic media disseminating bs; tracing the flipping source and getting resource to nab these guys for a good haircut in the slammer. complete prep for any riot situation etc.
> 
> It is good to see what is being done for the M3/M5. the radio upgrades are from my company on the M3/M5. and most likely a datalink may be there too.


IMO ... if the PAF opts to bring in new aerostructures for the Mirage III/5s, then that alone is telling: no new fighter (besides Block-III/JF-17B) until Project AZM. If not (and the upgrade is mostly electronics and new munitions), then things are still in the grey.

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## denel

mingle said:


> World can't stand still like we are now sooner or later life will get back to normal with or without COVID 19 vaccine hold like we now for long gonna destroy everyone. So learn to live with Corona virus.


well. depends... I am in the front line duty ensuring things are in place. Chinese have unleased WW3 without firing a single bullet. It is the poor people who have been impacted the most here. Heaven help any chinese here.

It will come around - we need time.

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## PakFactor

denel said:


> well. depends... I am in the front line duty ensuring things are in place. Chinese have unleased WW3 without firing a single bullet. It is the poor people who have been impacted the most here. Heaven help any chinese here.
> 
> It will come around - we need time.



Which part of South Africa are you in at the moment?
Are you are have a shut down enforced?


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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... if the PAF opts to bring in new aerostructures for the Mirage III/5s, then that alone is telling: no new fighter (besides Block-III/JF-17B) until Project AZM. If not (and the upgrade is mostly electronics and new munitions), then things are still in the grey.


I did not hear any new hardware being ordered so definitely no new structural upgrade is planned. The upgrade is around electronics in view of higher ECM being forecasted; for comms there is only one provider who fits in this profile and they are the world leaders in what is being sought.



PakFactor said:


> Which part of South Africa are you in at the moment?
> Are you are have a shut down enforced?


I am out of North west province. I have been called up on active duty. going back tomorrow for another 3 week rotation.

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## PakFactor

denel said:


> I did not hear any new hardware being ordered so definitely no new structural upgrade is planned. The upgrade is around electronics in view of higher ECM being forecasted; for comms there is only one provider who fits in this profile and they are the world leaders in what is being sought.
> 
> 
> I am out of North west province. I have been called up on active duty. going back tomorrow for another 3 week rotation.



I see, stay safe brother! Keep us updated.

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## Falcon26

denel said:


> I did not hear any new hardware being ordered so definitely no new structural upgrade is planned. The upgrade is around electronics in view of higher ECM being forecasted; for comms there is only one provider who fits in this profile and they are the world leaders in what is being sought.
> 
> 
> I am out of North west province. I have been called up on active duty. going back tomorrow for another 3 week rotation.



Best of luck. The forum will miss you.

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## Incog_nito

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> If PAF intends to modify the Mirage fleet and keep it flying beyond 2025 it would be worth while if they can explore the Cheetah D modifications. They are much better than our current variants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe explore some KFIR variants through a third party!!



I guess should keep focus on JF-17 development as it has great room for upgrades and possible R&D.

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## mshan44



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## ANG

Hi, this post is more for Mr. MK. He has advocated getting the JH-7B, I also agree with his train of thought that the PAF and PN needs a heavy air strike element. This would give the JH-7B a long range capability to defend itself. The M3/5 are good strike platforms, but are in dire need of upgrades. 

https://www.janes.com/article/95584/new-chinese-bvraam-spotted-on-plaaf-jh-7a-fighter-bomber

*New Chinese BVRAAM spotted on PLAAF JH-7A fighter bomber*
*Gabriel Dominguez, London and Andreas Rupprecht, Mainz* - Jane's Defence Weekly
17 April 2020

The same beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) that was first spotted on a People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) J-16 fighter aircraft in November 2016 has now also been photographed being carried by a JH-7A fighter-bomber.

The latest image of the missile, which is only the second photograph to have emerged so far, was posted on Chinese online forums in mid-April. It is unclear when and where the image was taken but it shows that the missile, the official designation of which has yet to be made public, is significantly larger than any other AAM operated by the PLAAF, including the new PL-15 BVRAAM.

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## Adam_Khan



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## syed_yusuf

After reviewing options available and future direction my recommendation is to upgrade needed mirage squadrons to same level and create single type of advance attack vaerient for next 10 years of service with target of replacing them with azm when it becomes available. Hopefully in next 10 years or less.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VPA3/2685

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You can also solve the H2/H4 limitation by arming the JF-17 with the Raptor III. It's likely compact enough to fit under each wing of the JF-17 -- if not Block-I/II, then certainly Block-III/JF-17B. You could have a single JF-17B deploy to Raptor IIIs, one on fire-and-forget using INS/GNSS, and the other manual operation (with the WSO).
> 
> Interestingly, Denel Dynamics took the entire project offline after showing it off. So, it's possible that the PAF did buy out the project (i.e., @JamD's guess re: the boxed-out 'extended range smart weapon' tested in 2019).


pretty sure this is what PAF is thinking..
h4, H2 and even RAAD 1 will be retired with mirages..
and will be replaced by REK, raptor 3 iteration and RAAD 2 that will fit jf17

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## Path-Finder

The Raven said:


> The H2/H4 are outdated in terms of their tech, requiring 2 aircraft to launch and guide a single weapon.





The Raven said:


> And yes, I'm fully aware of the performance of the Mirage/H2/H4 combo in operation Swift Retort. But, that doesn't remove the fact that the PAF could have done the same job at considerable less risk with the more modern stand-off weapon options it has.


@denel will second what I will say, the whole purpose of H2/4 is that it is highly resistance to being jammed by the enemy! That is the reason why it is operated this way.

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## Adam_Khan



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## mingle

Adam_Khan said:


> View attachment 627211


Any news about Egyptian Mirages???


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## Adam_Khan



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## mingle

Adam_Khan said:


> View attachment 627791
> 
> 
> View attachment 627792


Masroor Haiders

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## fatman17

Top pic is nice


mingle said:


> Masroor Haiders

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## Adam_Khan

Not sure if posted before, this guy is a gem of a photographer.

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## Deltadart

I wonder to what extent the experience of operation swift retort has compelled the PAF to seek upgrades on most of it's mirage fleet?

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## araz

Deltadart said:


> I wonder to what extent the experience of operation swift retort has compelled the PAF to seek upgrades on most of it's mirage fleet?


It may have more to do with our finances than 27/02. These decisions are made well in advance and work started years ahead of news leaking out. A lot may depend on what is required and how pricey it may be and what advantage it brings to the platform. 
A

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## PakShaheen79

araz said:


> It may have more to do with our finances than 27/02. These decisions are made well in advance and work started years ahead of news leaking out. A lot may depend on what is required and how pricey it may be and what advantage it brings to the platform.
> A



Absolutely. ROSE program was terminated in 2000s due to cost and Mirages Frame being v old. Had that not the case, PAF might have gone for a solution similar to IAI's KAFIR a mirage upgrade with AESA.


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## Armchair

PAF likes to keep a lot of things under wraps so nothing really forthcoming. Some issues:

1. Egyptian Mirages, what happened? Seems no answers forthcoming
2. Denel is suggesting recent supply of brand new fabricated parts, is that for sure?
3. Upgradation of Mirages, seems mainly an electronic suite upgrade, probably sensors, avionics and communication. Though everyone here is hoping for new radar and RD-93, these are unlikely. Not going with RD-93 from 2000 onwards was probably a strategic error on the part of PAF. Unlikely to change course now.

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## mshan44



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## mingle

Armchair said:


> PAF likes to keep a lot of things under wraps so nothing really forthcoming. Some issues:
> 
> 1. Egyptian Mirages, what happened? Seems no answers forthcoming
> 2. Denel is suggesting recent supply of brand new fabricated parts, is that for sure?
> 3. Upgradation of Mirages, seems mainly an electronic suite upgrade, probably sensors, avionics and communication. Though everyone here is hoping for new radar and RD-93, these are unlikely. Not going with RD-93 from 2000 onwards was probably a strategic error on the part of PAF. Unlikely to change course now.


They should keep few Sqd with denel upgrade rest retire them and use them as parts. These are old jets giving them lease of life better induct few Jh7 for Navy more cheaper than and relatively new airframes uogarde them according to PN needs.

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## ghazi52



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## Armchair

One thing is for sure, these repeated rebuilds would not be possible if this used composites.

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## Scorpiooo

Read somewhere PAF considering cheetah update with ths help fo south Africa, is true or just fanboy wish ?


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## Gryphon

*PAF’s Delta Force*

Safe Guarding The Aerial Frontier For 50 Golden Years






*Air force* is the dominant strategic force that enables a country to respond quickly and influence the course of events in times of conflict. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) boasts a fleet of aircraft that can deliver a full complement of air-to-air, air-to-surface precision weapons, and enable the pilots to return home safely. In that, the distinguished PAF fleet includes one such influencer – of rugged nature and max performance, built for the rigors of war. The Mirage III and V multi role fighter jet and all of its 16 modified variants are a pilot’s aircraft. It can fly at more than twice the speed of sound, one very distinguishing performance feature. As formidable as it is at high speeds, it is just as deadly at 330 knots. Every fighter pilot in the PAF would fantasize flying the Mirage in its heyday, between 1969 and 1983, until the F-16’s came and claimed this dream. However, it continues to enjoy the advantage of a higher Mach number over the F-16 even today.

*But unlike* other fighter planes that aviators not so much as fly but wear when they put the power, maneuverability and endurance to the test, Mirage is a challenging airplane to handle. Pilots must respect its performance envelop and the typical flight characteristics emanating from its wing design, especially during take-offs and be equally mindful of its limits when landing. Lift the nose too much and its delta wings will create so much drag that the plane will never get off the ground; come in at higher angles when landing, and the drag significantly disrupts its high-speed approach. Nonetheless, designed around a single engine, its sleek aerodynamic design, firepower and an ability to manipulate speed that will put your stomach at the back of the airplane, makes this beast a lethal adversary. As strong as a power lifter and as nimble as a gymnast, the Mirage really does anything a pilot wants. And it has done so for the past 50 years it has been serving the PAF. Aviation artist for the PAF, Group Captain Syed Masood Akhtar Ussaini, beautifully preserves the day of 8th March, 1968 on canvas when Wing Commander MM Alam led the first batch of six Mirage aircraft into Pakistan’s airspace. Flying at his wings were Sqn Ldr Hakimullah (served as Chief of the Air Staff from March 1988 to March 1991), Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan (served as Chief of the Air Staff, from March 1991 to November 1994), Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar (retired as an Air Vice Marshal), Flt Lt Arif Manzoor( embraced Shahadat in Syria in a flying accident), and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao (retired as Wing Commander). Even today, the nostalgic painting triggers vivid memories in veteran officers. The French built the Mirage as an all-weather multi-role aircraft with a heavy emphasis on ground attack capability.

*It is a very* stable platform for accurate air-to-ground weapon delivery, carrying a very reasonable load. The very first batch of the PAF Mirages came fitted with air-to-air interceptor radars along with the first generation beyond visual range (BVR) missiles. From an original 24 fighters initially acquired by PAF, the fleet of these hunter killers bloomed to almost 300 over the next four decades. Serving as linchpin of the PAF’s tactical attack capabilities, the Mirage has served with eleven different squadrons of PAF over the years. At present, there are seven Mirage attack squadrons, the No 15 Squadron ‘Cobras’ being the largest, comprising some older variants such as the Mirage III EP. Whereas the No 7 Squadron ‘Bandits’ has its Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE). Based in south are the “Haider’s” of No 8 Sqn which operates Mirage V PA2/3 and are also known by the name of ‘Guardians of Pakistani Seas’. The No 25 ‘Night Strike Eagles’ Squadron has the ROSE II upgraded Mirages. The most modern and sophisticated Mirages, capable of using the PAF’s H2 and H4 stand-off weapons (SOW) are the ROSE III, which make up the PAF’s newest fighter squadron, “The Zarrars”, from the No 27 Squadron. Former Editor of Air Forces Monthly and prolific aviation photographer, Alan Warnes, described the Mirage airplanes of the PAF as, “The great workhorse. Owing to the ingenuity of expertly trained crew of PAF engineers, it has continued to evolve with the needs of modern air warfare.”
*
How It All Started:*
Up until the 1960s, the PAF consisted largely of US-built planes, such as the F-104 Starfighters, B-57 Bombers, F-86 Sabres, T-33 Shooting Star, C-130 Hercules and T-37 Tweety Birds. Like the advent of many other aircraft in the PAF, the Mirage was an effect of US sanctions imposed upon Pakistan when it went to war in 1965. Air Marshal Nur Khan, who led the air force through the 1965 war with India, found the entire US fighter aircraft grounded due to a lack of spares. These were precarious times and with no combat aircraft available, Nur Khan set about finding a solution. The PAF needed a ‘bomb truck’ that could carry several tons of weapons and strike deep into enemy territory, besides an effective air defense capability. The acquisition of the trailblazing Dassault Mirage III nailed the brief. It was around the time that the leading aircraft of the PAF, the F-104 Starfighter was fading out that the Mirage effectively replaced. The Mirage arrived in the nick of time – with a definite purpose. Pakistan was on the brink of another war. In 1971, the aircraft did well in its strike and air defense roles, given that it was the only night interceptor besides the few Starfighters. Come the end of the Afghan war in 1989, the Americans placed more embargoes and stopped shipment of the F-16s. In 1992, the PAF decided that it had to live with the inventory it had and focus more on aircraft that were easily available. The air force took a crucial decision to acquire additional Mirages from the Australian, Belgian, Spanish, Libyan, Lebanese, and French air forces that were either not using them anymore or had little use of them. While many of the acquired planes were made airworthy, some were reduced to spares. Since the Indian air force was modernizing and re-equipping, the PAF had to frame and pursue its own strategy to develop a matching operational capability. That was when Pakistan started to upgrade its Mirage fleet and thus became one of the largest operators of Mirage III and Mirage V aircraft in the world.

*Up gradation of Mirage:*
Fleet With the up gradation of PAF’s air defense network in the late 70s, Mirage aircraft also received secure radios and Electronic Counter Measure (ECM) equipment. Also added in some Mirages was Infra-Red (IR) based night intercept capability. However, in the early 90s, the constant hazard of US embargoes and the increasing threat of the adversary prompted the PAF to embark upon the programme called the Retro fit of Strike Elements (ROSE). The ROSE programme was primarily an advanced avionics-based capability on Mirage aircraft. The upgrade set the pilot free from distractions and unnecessary workload. While the heads-up display (HUD) projected information in front of the pilot, with the hands-on-throttle and stick (HOTAS) system the pilot did not have to look down to select and operate essential switches, something crucial in the heat of the battle. In the ROSE I programme, besides a Nav-attack system and HUD, the Mirages, fitted with the Grifo M3 radar, were at an advantage as autonomous interceptors with contemporary capabilities. The upgrade programme in ROSE II, transformed it into a precision attack aircraft with multi-function displays (MFD). The forward looking infrared (FLIR) under the more advanced ROSE III project, put the fear of God into the enemy – the Mirage could pulverize targets by delivering weapons accurately even in the darkest of nights. Several Mirages were later equipped with air-to-air refueling capability as well. All these enhanced features not only made the Mirages more lethal but also made the pilot more efficient in the cockpit. The reconnaissance variant of the Mirage was also outfitted with a capability to carry the Long-Range Aerial Photography Pod (LORAP). This included a real time data-link that could transmit the pictures to the headquarters immediately after landing. The Mirage 5PA3 was another variant, which came fitted with the capability to carry and fire the anti-ship Exocet missile to defend our coastline naval fleet against enemy’s surface ships; which was a crucial requirement after the 1971 war. The ROSE programme was a massive activity of upgrading and integrating avionics and weapons, which came handy subsequently in the JF-17 Thunder programme. This extremely valuable and exclusive experience added to the expertise and confidence of PAF’s engineering personnel.

*Mirages- Notable Instances of Service in PAF:*
With acquisitions of 16 different variants in subsequent years, Mirage became a popular choice of the PAF for operational employment. Apart from carrying out bombing and air defense missions during the 1971 war, Mirage went on to perform reconnaissance operations against the enemy. These jets also played an important role in the air operations during Soviets Afghan occupation and for the defense of our nuclear programme in the 80s. Besides regularly flying reconnaissance missions along the Eastern and Western borders, in the mid-80s, the Reconnaissance Mirages were used to discover and confirm the position of Indian troops that had moved into Siachen. The reconnaissance Mirages made another significant contribution soon after the Ojhri camp tragedy in 1988. The ground teams used the datafrom the infrared cameras on the aircraft to identify hot spots after the inferno to complete their fire fighting operation in a safe and efficient manner. During the Kargil crisis in 1999, most of the Mirage squadrons were deployed to various forward operating bases (FOBs). Subsequently, following the Parliament bombings in Delhi, like all PAF squadrons, the Mirage units were put on full alert in response to the aggressive posturing by the Indian government. Operation ‘Sentinel’ lasted from December 2001 until October 2002, and during these testing times Mirages played a key role in defending the aerial frontiers of Pakistan. Thereafter, in the tension created after the Mumbai bombings, Mirages again provided the vital air defense to thwart any Indian threat. The 27th February, 2019 face off against enemy aggression once again proved the jet’s combat capability, when a few Mirage 5PA aircraft armed with stand-off bombs demonstrated the country’s resolve and capability to defend its sovereignty. In joint exercises with other air forces, the inclusion of Mirage aircraft, demonstrated the trust and confidence that PAF leadership had in this aircraft, its aircrew and technical crew to operate it successfully in different environments. Even today, these veterans actively participate in Shaheen series of exercises with PLA air force of China.

*The Mirage Rebuild Factory:*
Enhancements Though primarily for hunting, this thoroughbred has proven flexible and shown availability for ease of maintenance and repairs. These qualities make this aircraft first responder for those needing assistance. Key to sustained performance is routine maintenance by teams of trained PAF specialists that service this tangible piece of flying history. In the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF), trained crew of engineers strip the aircraft down to its smallest elements and then rebuild, with the efficiency of a race car pit crew. Last year the AFP described the techniques developed at the colossal MRF, Kamra, reminiscent of — but far more high-tech and lethal than — the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana. The planes take seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted. The MRF has the capacity to overhaul more than a dozen planes a year. It has been 22 years since I flew the Mirage, I still believe that when it comes to making an impression, the Mirage is head and shoulders above the rest. In 1967, Mirage was state-of-the-art in military aviation. When Pakistan Air Force first acquired the Mirage, its collective features were a quantum leap above what existed in its inventory. It could come at low altitudes, defy radar detection at 250 feet, and deliver ordinance at high speeds such as the anti-runway bomb, another exclusive domain of the Delta wing jet. Looking back at the 50 plus years of the Mirage being such an integral part of the PAF, the majority of veteran Mirage pilots of PAF think that the Mirage would be dearly missed as 70 to 80 percent of our pilots have served and protected the nation with this potent weapon system. It will not be an exaggeration to say that the Mirage will remain a part of the DNA of the PAF, long after the aircraft has been phased out.

*Written by
Air Vice Marshal (R)
Ikramullah Bhatti*

*PAF’s Delta Force | secondtononepaf.com*

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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


>




Clearly the French helmet being discussed In other threads is visible and these pic are back from 2007/8 time

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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260956220904611840

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## ZedZeeshan

Just a curious question if any 1 care to answer..!
Why PAF did not go for Mirage F1..??
I personally think that it would have performed and served much better then Mirage 3
Thanks


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## Deltadart

ZedZeeshan said:


> Just a curious question if any 1 care to answer..!
> Why PAF did not go for Mirage F1..??
> I personally think that it would have performed and served much better then Mirage 3
> Thanks


Perhaps not a priority, or the perennial paucity of funds. Only the PAF leadership of those days can answer this question definitively.

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## ziaulislam

ZedZeeshan said:


> Just a curious question if any 1 care to answer..!
> Why PAF did not go for Mirage F1..??
> I personally think that it would have performed and served much better then Mirage 3
> Thanks


because mirage 5 was bought before and mirage2000 was avaialble afterwards

i always wondered that if PAF doesn't want to get J10 and jf17 will not evolve further..it would be interesting to see if mirage5 based upgrade with zero frames is viable ..just like what south africa did..

but seems jf17 is the way ahead

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## Path-Finder

Personally I think Pakistan missed out on Super Etendard

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## untitled

Path-Finder said:


> Personally I think Pakistan missed out on Super Etendard


Not many of these were built. It couldn't fly supersonic and the Exocet missile which was it's major selling point was already in service with the Mirages. Compared to this the A7 would have been a better choice which was designed for a similar role and was actually on offer

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## Adam_Khan

Path-Finder said:


> Personally I think Pakistan missed out on Super Etendard




Pakistan missed out on Mirage F1,that would certainly have given a big capability boost over the earlier version of Mirages. Pakistani pilots who flew it in Gulf countries were all praise for it.

Super Etendard wouldn't have given any kind of capability boost.

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## MIRauf

untitled said:


> Not many of these were built. It couldn't fly supersonic and the Exocet missile which was it's major selling point was already in service with the Mirages. Compared to this the A7 would have been a better choice which was designed for a similar role and was actually on offer



110 A-7 one Trick Pony or 40 F-16 the king of South Asia Skies to this date, I think PAF made the right choice. USA was balking on selling A-7 platform to PAF as it would have given it a deep strike platform, that was before F-16's came into limelight. Then when A-7 was being offered, PAF needed F-16 type to counter Ruskies in Afghanistan, not A-7s.

Now imagine if PAF had gone with A-7, where would your spare parts had come from during embargo's ?

On side note, to this date, i still believe my source that Egypt torpedoed PAF chance for having in-house F-1 manufacturing chance.

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## Deltadart

MIRauf said:


> 110 A-7 one Trick Pony or 40 F-16 the king of South Asia Skies to this date, I think PAF made the right choice. USA was balking on selling A-7 platform to PAF as it would have given it a deep strike platform, that was before F-16's came into limelight. Then when A-7 was being offered, PAF needed F-16 type to counter Ruskies in Afghanistan, not A-7s.
> 
> Now imagine if PAF had gone with A-7, where would your spare parts had come from during embargo's ?
> 
> On side note, to this date, i still believe my source that Egypt torpedoed PAF chance for having in-house F-1 manufacturing chance.


Could you please elaborate a little more on the last point.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MIRauf said:


> 110 A-7 one Trick Pony or 40 F-16 the king of South Asia Skies to this date, I think PAF made the right choice. USA was balking on selling A-7 platform to PAF as it would have given it a deep strike platform, that was before F-16's came into limelight. Then when A-7 was being offered, PAF needed F-16 type to counter Ruskies in Afghanistan, not A-7s.
> 
> Now imagine if PAF had gone with A-7, where would your spare parts had come from during embargo's ?
> 
> On side note, to this date, i still believe my source that Egypt torpedoed PAF chance for having in-house F-1 manufacturing chance.


I think once the US feared that the PAF could use the A-7 for nuclear delivery, the A-7s were totally off the table, even with the F-16 available. The PAF really liked the A-7, so if it had been available in the 1980s, it would've paired them up with the F-16s.

Ultimately, the lesson here is that the US doesn't want the PAF to build up an offensive edge over India, especially in terms of air power. I don't think the concern here isn't so much India, but that an edge over India would mean an edge over all regional powers, i.e., India, Iran, KSA, etc, and with nukes in tow.

This reality puts the PAF's NGFA/FGFA efforts into scope. The current CAS had given a clear message when he said the ASR was for a twin-engine jet. IMO, AHQ is looking to build the offensive edge locally, at least if they can't buy it off-the-shelf.

Unfortunately, we'll have to climb walls with the local route too (e.g., overcoming the current lack of flight control tech at AvRID/PAC). But, if we can, by some chance, get past those challenges and build a fleet of 270 NGFAs (plus drones) by 2047, then...

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MIRauf said:


> 110 A-7 one Trick Pony or 40 F-16 the king of South Asia Skies to this date, I think PAF made the right choice. USA was balking on selling A-7 platform to PAF as it would have given it a deep strike platform, that was before F-16's came into limelight. Then when A-7 was being offered, PAF needed F-16 type to counter Ruskies in Afghanistan, not A-7s.
> 
> Now imagine if PAF had gone with A-7, where would your spare parts had come from during embargo's ?
> 
> On side note, to this date, i still believe my source that Egypt torpedoed PAF chance for having in-house F-1 manufacturing chance.


F-16 was conceived at the pinnacle of the US ingenuity...

And, Pak has made the most out of it by indigenously conceptualizing and materializing JF-17 with the Chinese cooperation....



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think once the US feared that the PAF could use the A-7 for nuclear delivery, the A-7s were totally off the table, even with the F-16 available. The PAF really liked the A-7, so if it had been available in the 1980s, it would've paired them up with the F-16s.
> 
> Ultimately, the lesson here is that the US doesn't want the PAF to build up an offensive edge over India, especially in terms of air power. I don't think the concern here isn't so much India, but that an edge over India would mean an edge over all regional powers, i.e., India, Iran, KSA, etc, and with nukes in tow.
> 
> This reality puts the PAF's NGFA/FGFA efforts into scope. The current CAS had given a clear message when he said the ASR was for a twin-engine jet. IMO, AHQ is looking to build the offensive edge locally, at least if they can't buy it off-the-shelf.
> 
> Unfortunately, we'll have to climb walls with the local route too (e.g., overcoming the current lack of flight control tech at AvRID/PAC).


I sincerely hope inputs of TFX are there too during this Pak adventure...

TFX initial prototypes are based on 2 F16 engines from GE. A certain loss for the stealth is accepted for the sake of sensor fusion for 360 degrees coverage, avionics, EW, radars etc. capabilities...

A less stealthy TFX is better than no TFX....

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## araz

MIRauf said:


> 110 A-7 one Trick Pony or 40 F-16 the king of South Asia Skies to this date, I think PAF made the right choice. USA was balking on selling A-7 platform to PAF as it would have given it a deep strike platform, that was before F-16's came into limelight. Then when A-7 was being offered, PAF needed F-16 type to counter Ruskies in Afghanistan, not A-7s.
> 
> Now imagine if PAF had gone with A-7, where would your spare parts had come from during embargo's ?
> 
> On side note, to this date, i still believe my source that Egypt torpedoed PAF chance for having in-house F-1 manufacturing chance.


I have heard from various sources about the joint plan of various countries including Iran to jointly manufacture the F1. If I remember correctly everyone wanted a piece of the pie. PAF I think decided to walk away if it was not getting production rights. It was a lot of heresay so I could be totally incorrect. 
A

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## airomerix



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## khanasifm

As mirages are going to be around for at least another decade Looks like paf want to keep them current and like T-37 Plan to upgrade some of the mirages to all digital cockpit and avionics - guessing based on the news from one of the vendor and there are multiple vendor competing 

first mirages Sqn will start Converting to jf Plus if any other platform in play ~ 2024/5 time 

Again guessing based on information available open sources

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> As mirages are going to be around for at least another decade Looks like paf want to keep them current and like T-37 Plan to upgrade some of the mirages to all digital cockpit and avionics - guessing based on the news from one of the vendor and there are multiple vendor competing
> 
> first mirages Sqn will start Converting to jf Plus if any other platform in play ~ 2024/5 time
> 
> Again guessing based on information available open sources


One vendor is Denel for sure who are others??

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## Readerdefence

khanasifm said:


> As mirages are going to be around for at least another decade Looks like paf want to keep them current and like T-37 Plan to upgrade some of the mirages to all digital cockpit and avionics - guessing based on the news from one of the vendor and there are multiple vendor competing
> 
> first mirages Sqn will start Converting to jf Plus if any other platform in play ~ 2024/5 time
> 
> Again guessing based on information available open sources


Hi is it possible to replace engines also in these aircrafts something more powerful then the present engine specially from Chinese or Russian help as I’m sure European or USA will be more costlier engines might not be suitable 
Beside upgrading their cockpit etc 
Thank you

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## Deltadart

Readerdefence said:


> Hi is it possible to replace engines also in these aircrafts something more powerful then the present engine specially from Chinese or Russian help as I’m sure European or USA will be more costlier engines might not be suitable
> Beside upgrading their cockpit etc
> Thank you


Please read the previous messages on this thread and you will have answers to all the possible scenarios regarding the mirages.

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## Blacklight

Some members might be interested in this info. Apologies if already posted here.
******************************************************************

The Egyptian pilots were introduced to Mirage-III/5 fighters in the beginning of the seventies when about 20 Egyptian pilots traveled to Libya to fly its Mirage fighters as part of Libyan support program in which Libya offered its fighters to help the EAF in its war with Israel. Egyptian pilots flew Libyan Mirage fighters during the war and they were pleased for its high performance.

In 1972 Saudi Arabia issued an order for 32 Mirage 5SDE tactical fighters and 6 Mirage 5SDD two seat conversion trainer. These aircrafts were purchased by the Saudis on behalf of Egypt. Their deliveries began in 1974. While still in France all wore markings of the Royal Saudi Air Force, but they never reached Saudi Arabia.









Instead, in 1974 all were delivered to Egypt, where the first batch entered service with the No.69 Squadron. Together with some original Libyan examples of Mirage 5DE and Mirage 5Ds, these took part in the October War, 1973, and suffered some losses.

Subsequently, Saudis financed additional deals during the '70s. Purchased 14 Mirage 5SDE in December 1975. And eight 5SDE and six recce Mirage 5SDR in December 1977.




The Mirage 5 was the first western fighter ordered by Egypt since the Vampire and Meteor in 1950. Egypt went in a large Mirage 5 purchasing program in which she purchased more than 54 Mirage-5SDE's, 6 Mirage 5SDD's and 6 Mirage-5SDR's. The French Dassault Aviation delivered 66 combat aircraft between 1974 and 1980.

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/dassault_mirage_5_eng.html

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## khanasifm

I am just curious the uae mirage 5 were stored and I think never. Sold perhaps there was not much left to be sold because paf never tried to get those air at least it’s not know.

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## Armchair

khanasifm said:


> I am just curious the uae mirage 5 were stored and I think never. Sold perhaps there was not much left to be sold because paf never tried to get those air at least it’s not know.



I heard that they gifted them to Pakistan at some point. Perhaps used for spares.

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## mshan44



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## Blacklight

Armchair said:


> I heard that they gifted them to Pakistan at some point. Perhaps used for spares.


That is exactly what I heard. Maybe @HRK can confirm?

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## HRK

Blacklight said:


> That is exactly what I heard. Maybe @HRK can confirm?


I have no idea .... 

but would not be surprised if it's true due to obsession PAF have for Mirage-III and V

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## ali_raza

khanasifm said:


> I am just curious the uae mirage 5 were stored and I think never. Sold perhaps there was not much left to be sold because paf never tried to get those air at least it’s not know.


all were gifted to pakistan

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## Blacklight

ali_raza said:


> all were gifted to pakistan


I know a little bit about their history, how the first pilot in the world to fly an F16 with a prosthetic leg, was one of those who under secondment to UAEAF, took delivery in France and flew them to the UAE, and how majority of their pilots were Pakistani etc.

Their Mirages were MRO'd at PAC, and the French showed their auqat by delaying parts, but once the UAE got their M-2000's we got the Mirage V's. But for the life of me cant find the article.



HRK said:


> I have no idea ....
> 
> but would not be surprised if it's true due to obsession PAF have for Mirage-III and V



For aviation fans, a book on PAF Mirages would make for a great reading!

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> I know a little bit about their history, how the first pilot in the world to fly an F16 with a prosthetic leg, was one of those who under secondment to UAEAF, took delivery in France and flew them to the UAE, and how majority of their pilots were Pakistani etc.
> 
> Their Mirages were MRO'd at PAC, and the French showed their auqat by delaying parts, but once the UAE got their M-2000's we got the Mirage V's. But for the life of me cant find the article.
> 
> 
> 
> For aviation fans, a book on PAF Mirages would make for a great reading!


u r right about mirage overhauling in pakistan.
uae af was soo friendly to us 
i feel sad how we messed up our relationships with them

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> @denel will second what I will say, the whole purpose of H2/4 is that it is highly resistance to being jammed by the enemy! That is the reason why it is operated this way.


Correction.... you can do it one aircraft carrying both units. In this case, it was one carrier and one specialist doing the work.



PakFactor said:


> Which part of South Africa are you in at the moment?
> Are you are have a shut down enforced?


Back now. it was a nightmare and finally off cycle now for next several weeks.

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> Personally I think Pakistan missed out on Super Etendard


These were specific for their Navy and Argentinians used them for that purpose. But other than that, there was no real positive contribution that it would be able to assist with.

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## GriffinsRule

One thing I like to do is research and read up on history for topics of interest. Found a few magazines from the early 1980s with articles on the PAF. For example, the Mirages and F-6s both required 50-60 maintenance man hours per flight hour, however, the Mirages cost 6 times as much due to spare being much more expensive from France vs China for the Farmer. 
Similarly, the first Mirages went through an overhaul at 1000 flight hours, which by 1981 was already improved and done at 11yrs or 1,800 flying hours for the air frames.

And lastly, a nice tidbit; PAF regarded the Mirage 3/5s in such high regard that even as far back as in November of 1980, it sent a team to France for extended test flight eval on a dual-seat Mirage 2000B back then! Alas it was not meant to be =)

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## Aliph Ahmed

ZedZeeshan said:


> Just a curious question if any 1 care to answer..!
> Why PAF did not go for Mirage F1..??
> I personally think that it would have performed and served much better then Mirage 3
> Thanks



There was an agreement in principle reached between arab countries and Pakistan to to put in place an F1 full production line in Pakistan but Egypt fucked it up by voicing opposition. That was the end of it.

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## Avicenna

Aliph Ahmed said:


> There was an agreement in principle reached between arab countries and Pakistan to to put in place an F1 full production line in Pakistan but Egypt fucked it up by voicing opposition. That was the end of it.



Proof/Evidence?


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## GriffinsRule

Aliph Ahmed said:


> There was an agreement in principle reached between arab countries and Pakistan to to put in place an F1 full production line in Pakistan but Egypt fucked it up by voicing opposition. That was the end of it.


Why would Egypt voice its opposition for F-1s that they did not even operate? And why would France care? They had no problem selling us equipment for the MRF? I would take this claim with a pinch of salt.


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## Adam_Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> One thing I like to do is research and read up on history for topics of interest. Found a few magazines from the early 1980s with articles on the PAF. For example, the Mirages and F-6s both required 50-60 maintenance man hours per flight hour, however, the Mirages cost 6 times as much due to spare being much more expensive from France vs China for the Farmer.
> Similarly, the first Mirages went through an overhaul at 1000 flight hours, which by 1981 was already improved and done at 11yrs or 1,800 flying hours for the air frames.
> 
> And lastly, a nice tidbit; PAF regarded the Mirage 3/5s in such high regard that even as far back as in November of 1980, it sent a team to France for extended test flight eval on a dual-seat Mirage 2000B back then! Alas it was not meant to be =)




Mirage 2000 was indeed evaluated in the 80's and they were not impressed with the look down/shoot down capability of it's radar however they were quite impressed with Mirage 2000-5,it's another story why we didn't get them in the 90's.


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## GriffinsRule

Adam_Khan said:


> Mirage 2000 was indeed evaluated in the 80's and they were not impressed with the look down/shoot down capability of it's radar however they were quite impressed with Mirage 2000-5,it's another story why we didn't get them in the 90's.


Yes I recall reading that the base version did not impress the PAF as much. At the same time frame, they were also looking at F-20s and other offerings from the US and clearly preferred a US solution to be technically more advanced.

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## MIRauf

GriffinsRule said:


> Why would Egypt voice its opposition for F-1s that they did not even operate? And why would France care? They had no problem selling us equipment for the MRF? I would take this claim with a pinch of salt.



As an Arab leader, they wanted the Plant / Factory to be in Egypt. Masari suffered from a huge ego issue and have always considered themselves as the leader of the Arab World. That changed for short while when Saddam was at his peak and GCC regarded him as their savior, he regarded himself as the modern day 'Salah Uddin'

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## Aliph Ahmed

MIRauf said:


> As an Arab leader, they wanted the Plant / Factory to be in Egypt. Masari suffered from a huge ego issue and have always considered themselves as the leader of the Arab World. That changed for short while when Saddam was at his peak and GCC regarded him as their savior, he regarded himself as the modern day 'Salah Uddin'



Thank you for the addition.

Not everything is documented online but I believe it was briefly mentioned on global security.

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## araz

Adam_Khan said:


> Mirage 2000 was indeed evaluated in the 80's and they were not impressed with the look down/shoot down capability of it's radar however they were quite impressed with Mirage 2000-5,it's another story why we didn't get them in the 90's.


Mr 10% upto his tricks. 
A


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## SABRE

araz said:


> Mr 10% upto his tricks.
> A



Are you saying a civilian politician actually had a say in arms acquisition in Pakistan?


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## Ultima Thule

SABRE said:


> Are you saying a civilian politician actually had a say in arms acquisition in Pakistan?


Mr-10% aka zardari want a kickbacks for Mirage-2000-5 in 90s


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## araz

SABRE said:


> Are you saying a civilian politician actually had a say in arms acquisition in Pakistan?


In this case he had his fingers in the pie. The file lay on BBs desk for 3 months. 
A

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## SABRE

araz said:


> In this case he had his fingers in the pie. The file lay on BBs desk for 3 months.
> A



Any evidence or a credible source that can be academically cited? (otherwise, it might be passed over as hearsay). This might be helpful for my research work.

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## araz

SABRE said:


> Any evidence or a credible source that can be academically cited? (otherwise, it might be passed over as hearsay). This might be helpful for my research work.


I talked at length to the man who was involved with the deal a d whose family was threatened by Mr 10%. He used to come to this forum as well. However I have no contact with the gentleman for the last many years. He was ??air attache to BB during the first govtt air commodore rank. The matter was complicated further by the fact that when the BB Gvtt was chucked out by Leghari and the papers were sent over the French refused to abide by the deal saying the PAF had not responded to the deal in time. Which makes me think there were share takers in the deal from both sides.

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## mingle

SABRE said:


> Any evidence or a credible source that can be academically cited? (otherwise, it might be passed over as hearsay). This might be helpful for my research work.


It was stated by Son of PAF officer who assigned Mirage file at MOD. Son is ex PAF pilot too. BB threw file on floor ask extra money added

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## airomerix

SABRE said:


> Are you saying a civilian politician actually had a say in arms acquisition in Pakistan?



They always have. Ever heard of submarine scandal?

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## MastanKhan

mingle said:


> It was stated by Son of PAF officer who assigned Mirage file at MOD. Son is ex PAF pilot too. BB threw file on floor ask extra money added



Hi,

The officer should have swallowed his pride and added more money to get the best fighter / strike aircraft---.

As for taking money for the Augusta---the best submarine---the best bang of r the buck---big deal if some money was taken as bribe---.

The Pak navy tried to get the worst possible submarine---the british subs that Benzair rejected because no kick backs---.

Guess where thos british subs are now---rusting buckets somewhere in the submarine junkyards---.

At least Benazir got eh Best sub with the best bang for the buck---and here we are waiting for those subs to be upgraded to 21st century standards---.

One must never let stupidity hold them back when getting a critical weapons system.

By the way---if that army officer's young daughter was dying of ailment and the drug was not readily available---he would have spent as much as he could have to buy that medicine for saving her life---.

Only when it comes to mother land---some of these officers become saints---.

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## ZedZeeshan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The officer should have swallowed his pride and added more money to get the best fighter / strike aircraft---.
> 
> As for taking money for the Augusta---the best submarine---the best bang of r the buck---big deal if some money was taken as bribe---.
> 
> The Pak navy tried to get the worst possible submarine---the british subs that Benzair rejected because no kick backs---.
> 
> Guess where thos british subs are now---rusting buckets somewhere in the submarine junkyards---.
> 
> At least Benazir got eh Best sub with the best bang for the buck---and here we are waiting for those subs to be upgraded to 21st century standards---.
> 
> One must never let stupidity hold them back when getting a critical weapons system.
> 
> By the way---if that army officer's young daughter was dying of ailment and the drug was not readily available---he would have spent as much as he could have to buy that medicine for saving her life---.
> 
> Only when it comes to mother land---some of these officers become saints---.


Agreed


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## Tipu7

araz said:


> Mr 10% upto his tricks.
> A


Asif Ali Zardari has nothing to do with M2K-05 which we evaluated back in 90s.
In fact it was Army who forced airforce to abandon expensive M2K and instead procure surplus Mirages III/V. Even that deal was littered by kickbacks (again, Uniforms were involved)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> Asif Ali Zardari has nothing to do with M2K-05 which we evaluated back in 90s.
> In fact it was Army who forced airforce to abandon expensive M2K and instead procure surplus Mirages III/V. Even that deal was littered by kickbacks (again, Uniforms were involved)


This is the verifiable account. The PAF had tried to ink the M2K-5 contract, but the deal collapsed after BB's gov't fell. Part of it was on Pakistan's political instability, but the French Ministry of Finance wasn't playing ball either as it didn't want to release a loan to back the deal. It seems the last good opportunity the PAF had was in the early 2000s when it had the option to buy used ex-French M2K-5s, but at that point, the US agreed to release the F-16s.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is the verifiable account. The PAF had tried to ink the M2K-5 contract, but the deal collapsed after BB's gov't fell. Part of it was on Pakistan's political instability, but the French Ministry of Finance wasn't playing ball either as it didn't want to release a loan to back the deal. It seems the last good opportunity the PAF had was in the early 2000s when it had the option to buy used ex-French M2K-5s, but at that point, the US agreed to release the F-16s.


More so the cost quoted for these 59 armie de aire second hand planes was 60 million a pop although the deal included enough spares for us to be happy for the next 20 years. I think it was a missed chance but I also think that the US as usual put a spanner in the works by offering us F16s
A



Tipu7 said:


> Asif Ali Zardari has nothing to do with M2K-05 which we evaluated back in 90s.
> In fact it was Army who forced airforce to abandon expensive M2K and instead procure surplus Mirages III/V. Even that deal was littered by kickbacks (again, Uniforms were involved)


I am talking about the BB Govtt that was brougt down by Farooq Leghari. I have mentioned my contact who was instrumental in the deal. I am inclined to believe him as I have heard the story from other sources as well. I generally do not press my point unless I have it on good authority but please feel free to disagree.
PAF has tried to procure M2Ks on multiple occasions and unfortunately failed. This maybe one of the reasons why there is confusion on what happened when
Kind regards.
A

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is the verifiable account. The PAF had tried to ink the M2K-5 contract, but the deal collapsed after BB's gov't fell. Part of it was on Pakistan's political instability, but the French Ministry of Finance wasn't playing ball either as it didn't want to release a loan to back the deal. It seems the last good opportunity the PAF had was in the early 2000s when it had the option to buy used ex-French M2K-5s, but at that point, the US agreed to release the F-16s.


if the french won't release used ones at a cheap price than m2K dont hold much attractiveness and they weren't ready to do so given India lucrative business and rafale factor..

anyway budget wouldnt allow it either

i guess PAF should stick to mirage3 till 2030 and focus on thunder and f16s if it can
what i am interested in is whether mirage 3 upgrade is affordable or not(new wings & rd 93) given someone has done the research work aleady (south africa)

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> if the french won't release used ones at a cheap price than m2K dont hold much attractiveness and they weren't ready to do so given India lucrative business and rafale factor..
> 
> anyway budget wouldnt allow it either
> 
> i guess PAF should stick to mirage3 till 2030 and focus on thunder and f16s if it can
> what i am interested in is whether mirage 3 upgrade is affordable or not(new wings & rd 93) given someone has done the research work aleady (south africa)


I would have asked them to sell the whole assembly line wth provisions to upgrade the engine. That might have been a deal worth doing but then the French wanted to peddle the Rafale and although PAF liked te plane it found initial and operating costs too much.
A


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## Adam_Khan

It had more to do with the fact that we simply didn't have the money to buy the aircraft,the plan was to buy 32 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft but because Pakistan wanted the payment duration to be increased the price of the whole deal went beyond 4 billion dollars. At that time the government also changed and that was the death knell for the deal.

Corruption part is always there in the deal but not to the extent that one man is responsible for ruining a deal,also this kind of corruption has benefited both civilians and people in the uniform.

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> if the french won't release used ones at a cheap price than m2K dont hold much attractiveness and they weren't ready to do so given India lucrative business and rafale factor..
> 
> anyway budget wouldnt allow it either
> 
> i guess PAF should stick to mirage3 till 2030 and focus on thunder and f16s if it can
> what i am interested in is whether mirage 3 upgrade is affordable or not(new wings & rd 93) given someone has done the research work aleady (south africa)


Someone should really record the saga of the PAF tryig to buy the M2Ks and other french planez including in itcthe story of the M3/5s as a story of success.
A


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## Adam_Khan

From The story of Pakistan Airforce 1988-1998 regarding Mirage 2K deal. PAF was also offered second hand Mirage 2000C's which they declined to buy.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Adam_Khan said:


> From The story of Pakistan Airforce 1988-1998 regarding Mirage 2K deal. PAF was also offered second hand Mirage 2000C's which they declined to buy.
> View attachment 634356
> View attachment 634357


I am guessing the used Mirage 2000C offer was the Mirage 2000 Light?



ziaulislam said:


> if the french won't release used ones at a cheap price than m2K dont hold much attractiveness and they weren't ready to do so given India lucrative business and rafale factor..
> 
> anyway budget wouldnt allow it either
> 
> i guess PAF should stick to mirage3 till 2030 and focus on thunder and f16s if it can
> what i am interested in is whether mirage 3 upgrade is affordable or not(new wings & rd 93) given someone has done the research work aleady (south africa)





araz said:


> I would have asked them to sell the whole assembly line wth provisions to upgrade the engine. That might have been a deal worth doing but then the French wanted to peddle the Rafale and although PAF liked te plane it found initial and operating costs too much.
> A





Adam_Khan said:


> It had more to do with the fact that we simply didn't have the money to buy the aircraft,the plan was to buy 32 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft but because Pakistan wanted the payment duration to be increased the price of the whole deal went beyond 4 billion dollars. At that time the government also changed and that was the death knell for the deal.
> 
> Corruption part is always there in the deal but not to the extent that one man is responsible for ruining a deal,also this kind of corruption has benefited both civilians and people in the uniform.


It's worth remembering that in the early 1990s, the PAF didn't know the Mirage 2000-5 could emerge as a solid strike fighter. This became apparent after the H-2/H-4 and Ra'ad caught on, at that point, the PAF looked for the Mirage 2000-9, but by then, Dassault said it was ending production. I think had the deep strike value of the M2K-5 been apparent, the PAF would've been OK getting even 24 M2K-5s (and build-up gradually).

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## Adam_Khan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I am guessing the used Mirage 2000C offer was the Mirage 2000 Light?
> 
> 
> I've an old copy of Jane's All the world aircraft, that states that Pakistan was offered 32 Mirage 2000C aircraft in early 90's but the offer was not picked. Don't think there has been a version of M2K called M2K Light,probably it was in the pipeline back then.
> 
> 
> 
> It's worth remembering that in the early 1990s, the PAF didn't know the Mirage 2000-5 could emerge as a solid strike fighter. This became apparent after the H-2/H-4 and Ra'ad caught on, at that point, the PAF looked for the Mirage 2000-9, but by then, Dassault said it was ending production. I think had the deep strike value of the M2K-5 been apparent, the PAF would've been OK getting even 16 M2K-5s (and build-up gradually).





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I am guessing the used Mirage 2000C offer was the Mirage 2000 Light?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's worth remembering that in the early 1990s, the PAF didn't know the Mirage 2000-5 could emerge as a solid strike fighter. This became apparent after the H-2/H-4 and Ra'ad caught on, at that point, the PAF looked for the Mirage 2000-9, but by then, Dassault said it was ending production. I think had the deep strike value of the M2K-5 been apparent, the PAF would've been OK getting even 24 M2K-5s (and build-up gradually).



I've an old copy of Jane's All the world aircraft, that states that Pakistan was offered 32 early version of Mirage 2000 aircraft in 90's but the offer was not picked. Don't think there has been a version of M2K called M2K Light,probably it was in the pipeline back then.

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## HRK

Adam_Khan said:


> I've an old copy of Jane's All the world aircraft, that states that Pakistan was offered 32 Mirage 2000C aircraft in early 90's but the offer was not picked.


read here 
BTW if possible just for sake of compiling record you could post historic news articles or reports about PAF in the same thread as posted above

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I am guessing the used Mirage 2000C offer was the Mirage 2000 Light?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's worth remembering that in the early 1990s, the PAF didn't know the Mirage 2000-5 could emerge as a solid strike fighter. This became apparent after the H-2/H-4 and Ra'ad caught on, at that point, the PAF looked for the Mirage 2000-9, but by then, Dassault said it was ending production. I think had the deep strike value of the M2K-5 been apparent, the PAF would've been OK getting even 24 M2K-5s (and build-up gradually).


one thing is for sure 4billion $ is really really expensive..and upgrades that would have been needed now would have been as much as expensive as we saw with Indians..spent 2.4b$ on upgrades and it till cant carry meteor

the alternative was 1 billion deal for 50 fighter jets avionics package for jf-17 and seemed that was final blow to the deal

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## araz

Adam_Khan said:


> From The story of Pakistan Airforce 1988-1998 regarding Mirage 2K deal. PAF was also offered second hand Mirage 2000C's which they declined to buy.
> View attachment 634356
> View attachment 634357


The political wranglings mentioned amounted to 10 million per plane added to the contract. I know this is probably the norm in various deals as widespread mention is made of Anwar Shamim and 40 million dollars which were handed to him for the 16 deal but even by that standard this amounted to 400 million dollars for the deal. Benazir was very much aware of what went on and actually asked the gentleman concerned wheter he had adjusted the figures as advised by Mr Asif Zardari. On his answer in the negative she threw the file out and told him not to return without adjusting the figures. 
A

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

araz said:


> The political wranglings mentioned amounted to 10 million per plane added to the contract. I know this is probably the norm in various deals as widespread mention is made of Anwar Shamim and 40 million dollars which were handed to him for the 16 deal but even by that standard this amounted to 400 million dollars for the deal. Benazir was very much aware of what went on and actually asked the gentleman concerned wheter he had adjusted the figures as advised by Mr Asif Zardari. On his answer in the negative she threw the file out and told him not to return without adjusting the figures.
> A


These bastards are much worse than the Indians as far as working against the Pak interests are concerned...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> one thing is for sure 4billion $ is really really expensive..and upgrades that would have been needed now would have been as much as expensive as we saw with Indians..spent 2.4b$ on upgrades and it till cant carry meteor
> 
> the alternative was 1 billion deal for 50 fighter jets avionics package for jf-17 and seemed that was final blow to the deal


Yep. This is also $4 billion in 1990s currency. So, imagine how much of the military's development funding would've been locked-up, and for how long, financing this deal.



araz said:


> The political wranglings mentioned amounted to 10 million per plane added to the contract. I know this is probably the norm in various deals as widespread mention is made of Anwar Shamim and 40 million dollars which were handed to him for the 16 deal but even by that standard this amounted to 400 million dollars for the deal. Benazir was very much aware of what went on and actually asked the gentleman concerned wheter he had adjusted the figures as advised by Mr Asif Zardari. On his answer in the negative she threw the file out and told him not to return without adjusting the figures.
> A


The M2K/-5 was also an expensive fighter, full-stop.

The corruption probably wasn't the reason why it fell through, but because Pakistan couldn't get a financing arrangement that will support it without tying up too much of the cash flow for too long.

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## jupiter2007

Pakistan should look for surplus Mirage-2000 B/D/N for stop gap purpose.

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## Imran Khan

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan should look for surplus Mirage-2000 B/D/N for stop gap purpose.


we dont have any gap our thunders can fill any gap

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## jupiter2007

Imran Khan said:


> we dont have any gap our thunders can fill any gap



Current inventory has between 200 - 250 older planes.

7 Squadron Bandits Mirage III ROSE I
8 Squadron Haiders Mirage 5PA2/PA3
15 Squadron Cobras Mirage 5PA
17 Squadron Tigers F-7PG
23 Squadron Talons F-7PG
25 Squadron Eagles Mirage 5 ROSE II
27 Squadron Zarrars Mirage 5 ROSE III


if we have limited production of Jf-17 block 3, It will take 20 years to replace older planes.

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## Imran Khan

jupiter2007 said:


> Current inventory has between 200 - 250 older planes.
> 
> 7 Squadron Bandits Mirage III ROSE I
> 8 Squadron Haiders Mirage 5PA2/PA3
> 15 Squadron Cobras Mirage 5PA
> 17 Squadron Tigers F-7PG
> 23 Squadron Talons F-7PG
> 25 Squadron Eagles Mirage 5 ROSE II
> 27 Squadron Zarrars Mirage 5 ROSE III
> 
> 
> if we have limited production of Jf-17 block 3, It will take 20 years to replace older planes.


if we see past we have good speed of replacing them sir . it will not be jet vs jet replacement . 100 block -3 will replace all of them .

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## syed_yusuf

Imran Khan said:


> if we see past we have good speed of replacing them sir . it will not be jet vs jet replacement . 100 block -3 will replace all of them .



more like 112 appx

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## Imran Khan

syed_yusuf said:


> more like 112 appx


i was saying as per plan sir may be they can reach 112 or 125 or even 150 who knows . when they have no order they make own 1sqn

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## Incog_nito

JF-17 program is meant to replace only F-7s and A-5Cs and maybe only 150 to 200 will be made.

Whereas for Mirage III/Vs replacement J-10 series, J-31, and maybe some other aircraft from the EU can be considered.

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## Yasser76

jupiter2007 said:


> Current inventory has between 200 - 250 older planes.
> 
> 7 Squadron Bandits Mirage III ROSE I
> 8 Squadron Haiders Mirage 5PA2/PA3
> 15 Squadron Cobras Mirage 5PA
> 17 Squadron Tigers F-7PG
> 23 Squadron Talons F-7PG
> 25 Squadron Eagles Mirage 5 ROSE II
> 27 Squadron Zarrars Mirage 5 ROSE III
> 
> 
> if we have limited production of Jf-17 block 3, It will take 20 years to replace older planes.




PG's are only 15-20 years old. Quite "young" in PAF terms. By all accounts it still has a decent radar and turning ability, coupled with AIM-9L/M its almost BVR capable and can act as a decent gap filler and point defence aircraft. Also I know in PAF it's valued as a lead in trainer and DACM aircraft. The two Sqds we have are at based at Peshawar and Samunguli, so facing Iran and Afghanistan for routine air patrol duties. For that role they are more then enough as we do not expect armed confrontation in the air from these two in the future. I don't see the F-7PG leaving service for at least another 10 years. 

Mirages are another story. Even the ROSE upgrade now is dated. PAF were very clever in obtaining a stock of relatively low hour airframes from all over the Middle East, France and Australia. Reserve is such we can just get any spare part we want from airframes in stock, no need to even go to manufacturer and where we do need to make something basic PAC has been doing for years. Essentially PAC could make a brand new Mirage from scratch if you asked them. This has made operating Mirage easy and cheap. Unlike issue India has with Jaguar which is same age. They have big fleet but no major spares reserve or spare air frames HAL has to produce every new part they need, also Jaguar is very under powered (they cancelled new engines over cost), Mirage was verlucky in having powerful ATAR engine. Not only had this enabled it to carry heavy loads like RAAD and H2/H4 but also provide enough surplus power for new equipment (Grifo radar, EW etc). This is why PAF love this plane.

Issue now is cost of upgrading this plane (replacing ATAR engine, AESA radar, ECM kit, new cockpit, HMD etc) is simply not worth it anymore. Add to that maintenece hours that increase for every flight hour due to age, training pilots to fly this plane. All of this is not worth it when we are churning out JF-17s at a relatively low cost and JF-17 has more capability. Only issue is we have simply so many Mirage Sqds that it will take at least another 5 years to fully replace all the fleet.

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## khanasifm

Yasser76 said:


> PG's are only 15-20 years old. Quite "young" in PAF terms. By all accounts it still has a decent radar and turning ability, coupled with AIM-9L/M its almost BVR capable and can act as a decent gap filler and point defence aircraft. Also I know in PAF it's valued as a lead in trainer and DACM aircraft. The two Sqds we have are at based at Peshawar and Samunguli, so facing Iran and Afghanistan for routine air patrol duties. For that role they are more then enough as we do not expect armed confrontation in the air from these two in the future. I don't see the F-7PG leaving service for at least another 10 years.
> 
> Mirages are another story. Even the ROSE upgrade now is dated. PAF were very clever in obtaining a stock of relatively low hour airframes from all over the Middle East, France and Australia. Reserve is such we can just get any spare part we want from airframes in stock, no need to even go to manufacturer and where we do need to make something basic PAC has been doing for years. Essentially PAC could make a brand new Mirage from scratch if you asked them. This has made operating Mirage easy and cheap. Unlike issue India has with Jaguar which is same age. They have big fleet but no major spares reserve or spare air frames HAL has to produce every new part they need, also Jaguar is very under powered (they cancelled new engines over cost), Mirage was verlucky in having powerful ATAR engine. Not only had this enabled it to carry heavy loads like RAAD and H2/H4 but also provide enough surplus power for new equipment (Grifo radar, EW etc). This is why PAF love this plane.
> 
> Issue now is cost of upgrading this plane (replacing ATAR engine, AESA radar, ECM kit, new cockpit, HMD etc) is simply not worth it anymore. Add to that maintenece hours that increase for every flight hour due to age, training pilots to fly this plane. All of this is not worth it when we are churning out JF-17s at a relatively low cost and JF-17 has more capability. Only issue is we have simply so many Mirage Sqds that it will take at least another 5 years to fully replace all the fleet.



With just 2400 hours total life compared to ~8000 hours airframe life for f-16 and mirages they will be gone sooner or later by the end of 2024 when all Blcok 3 and dual seater are delivered at least that what I think now paf has developed a package to extend life of some of dual seater f-7 by 200 hour per airframe w/o OEM per paf history and still flying some older in LIFT to take every hour left on an Airframe in the fleet so ...

cheers

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## aziqbal

before any of the Mirages are retired we need to first remove all F7PGs

we got 40 units from China during Kargil standoff and I believe we still never paid for them so we are not losing anything by scrapping them

its a poor interceptor although its engine is very quite, I have seen these F7PG and engine is super quite

Mirage on the other hand is a ear blaster but a good test bed for PAF weapons integration and testing

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## Trailer23

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> DAYMN BOY Give us Mirages next


Video's done 95% - The 5% is where I try to perfect it to the Max.
Just need to clean up as many logo's on the sides.
Titles.

Note sure about effects, will see.

Might take a Day or two.


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## jupiter2007

Yasser76 said:


> PG's are only 15-20 years old. Quite "young" in PAF terms. By all accounts it still has a decent radar and turning ability, coupled with AIM-9L/M its almost BVR capable and can act as a decent gap filler and point defence aircraft. Also I know in PAF it's valued as a lead in trainer and DACM aircraft. The two Sqds we have are at based at Peshawar and Samunguli, so facing Iran and Afghanistan for routine air patrol duties. For that role they are more then enough as we do not expect armed confrontation in the air from these two in the future. I don't see the F-7PG leaving service for at least another 10 years.
> 
> Mirages are another story. Even the ROSE upgrade now is dated. PAF were very clever in obtaining a stock of relatively low hour airframes from all over the Middle East, France and Australia. Reserve is such we can just get any spare part we want from airframes in stock, no need to even go to manufacturer and where we do need to make something basic PAC has been doing for years. Essentially PAC could make a brand new Mirage from scratch if you asked them. This has made operating Mirage easy and cheap. Unlike issue India has with Jaguar which is same age. They have big fleet but no major spares reserve or spare air frames HAL has to produce every new part they need, also Jaguar is very under powered (they cancelled new engines over cost), Mirage was verlucky in having powerful ATAR engine. Not only had this enabled it to carry heavy loads like RAAD and H2/H4 but also provide enough surplus power for new equipment (Grifo radar, EW etc). This is why PAF love this plane.
> 
> Issue now is cost of upgrading this plane (replacing ATAR engine, AESA radar, ECM kit, new cockpit, HMD etc) is simply not worth it anymore. Add to that maintenece hours that increase for every flight hour due to age, training pilots to fly this plane. All of this is not worth it when we are churning out JF-17s at a relatively low cost and JF-17 has more capability. Only issue is we have simply so many Mirage Sqds that it will take at least another 5 years to fully replace all the fleet.



Our production rate of Block 3 is very low, we should have 35 to 50 block 3 by 2025. Replacing 5 squadrons of Mirage with JF-17 in 5 years is impossible.

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## araz

jupiter2007 said:


> Our production rate of Block 3 is very low, we should have 35 to 50 block 3 by 2025. Replacing 5 squadrons of Mirage with JF-17 in 5 years is impossible.


Integrating squadrons into the system at such pace is not possible for PAF. Plus there is planned integration of squadrons based on when planes are due to be phased out and when infrastructure for maintenance can be setup locally. I think finances are the main reason for this although there maybe other technical glitches that we may not be aware of which is why PAC is taking it slowly with the block 3.
A

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## Armchair

since mirages are mainly aluminum airframes, would be interesting to do a heat treatment, then coat of copper via electrolysis and then again do a heat treatment. basically create a layer of aluminum bronze. if u did this with all the parts, the aircraft would become a little heavier but will zero hour the parts and drastically reduce erosion. Also undo past erosion with a new layer. just a thought.

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> Video's done 95% - The 5% is where I try to perfect it to the Max.
> Just need to clean up as many logo's on the sides.
> Titles.
> 
> Note sure about effects, will see.
> 
> Might take a Day or two.


THANKS man Mirages for life.


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## Bossman

Armchair said:


> since mirages are mainly aluminum airframes, would be interesting to do a heat treatment, then coat of copper via electrolysis and then again do a heat treatment. basically create a layer of aluminum bronze. if u did this with all the parts, the aircraft would become a little heavier but will zero hour the parts and drastically reduce erosion. Also undo past erosion with a new layer. just a thought.


Is not about erosion it’s about fatigue.


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## Armchair

Bossman said:


> Is not about erosion it’s about fatigue.



solution could possibly could solve that as well


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## Bossman

Armchair said:


> solution could possibly could solve that as well


If the answer was that simple why is not everyone doing it. They are better ways to protect against erosion. Remember the yellow primer all airframes have. And I am not talking about fatigue just erosion.


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## Armchair

Bossman said:


> If the answer was that simple why is not everyone doing it. They are better ways to protect against erosion. Remember the yellow primer all airframes have. And I am not talking about fatigue just erosion.



everyone does not have the unique problem of dealing with ALUMINUM fatigue and erosion from fighter aircraft of the 60s. u r jumping about from erosion to fatigue to erosion with nothing new or meaningful to contribute. seems its an ego issue.

do u always go around telling ppl on a discussion forum "u r wrong... becoz... duh... uhhh... if it was that simple they wud have dunnit"?

here is a gora journal saying it... now you can take it seriously... 
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-48764-9_124

what was that... something about Macauley's minute on Indian education...

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## Bossman

Armchair said:


> everyone does not have the unique problem of dealing with ALUMINUM fatigue and erosion from fighter aircraft of the 60s. u r jumping about from erosion to fatigue to erosion with nothing new or meaningful to contribute. seems its an ego issue.
> 
> do u always go around telling ppl on a discussion forum "u r wrong... becoz... duh... uhhh... if it was that simple they wud have dunnit"?
> 
> here is a gora journal saying it... now you can take it seriously...
> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-48764-9_124
> 
> what was that... something about Macauley's minute on Indian education...


No reference to bronze coating in the paper. Why I tell people that they are wrong is because people like to make big claims without doing their homework.


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## Armchair

thank Allah pdf has an ignore list


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## Basel

jupiter2007 said:


> Current inventory has between 200 - 250 older planes.
> 
> 7 Squadron Bandits Mirage III ROSE I
> 8 Squadron Haiders Mirage 5PA2/PA3
> 15 Squadron Cobras Mirage 5PA
> 17 Squadron Tigers F-7PG
> 23 Squadron Talons F-7PG
> 25 Squadron Eagles Mirage 5 ROSE II
> 27 Squadron Zarrars Mirage 5 ROSE III
> 
> 
> if we have limited production of Jf-17 block 3, It will take 20 years to replace older planes.



It's better to buy J-10C or J1X with lease instead of any handicapped bird from west.

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## Scorpiooo

My question is with actual experts here, Do you really think thandar block 2 or may he block 3 will be actual replacement for role of mirage 5 in PAF ?



Yasser76 said:


> PG's are only 15-20 years old. Quite "young" in PAF terms. By all accounts it still has a decent radar and turning ability, coupled with AIM-9L/M its almost BVR capable and can act as a decent gap filler and point defence aircraft. Also I know in PAF it's valued as a lead in trainer and DACM aircraft. The two Sqds we have are at based at Peshawar and Samunguli, so facing Iran and Afghanistan for routine air patrol duties. For that role they are more then enough as we do not expect armed confrontation in the air from these two in the future. I don't see the F-7PG leaving service for at least another 10 years.
> 
> Mirages are another story. Even the ROSE upgrade now is dated. PAF were very clever in obtaining a stock of relatively low hour airframes from all over the Middle East, France and Australia. Reserve is such we can just get any spare part we want from airframes in stock, no need to even go to manufacturer and where we do need to make something basic PAC has been doing for years. Essentially PAC could make a brand new Mirage from scratch if you asked them. This has made operating Mirage easy and cheap. Unlike issue India has with Jaguar which is same age. They have big fleet but no major spares reserve or spare air frames HAL has to produce every new part they need, also Jaguar is very under powered (they cancelled new engines over cost), Mirage was verlucky in having powerful ATAR engine. Not only had this enabled it to carry heavy loads like RAAD and H2/H4 but also provide enough surplus power for new equipment (Grifo radar, EW etc). This is why PAF love this plane.
> 
> Issue now is cost of upgrading this plane (replacing ATAR engine, AESA radar, ECM kit, new cockpit, HMD etc) is simply not worth it anymore. Add to that maintenece hours that increase for every flight hour due to age, training pilots to fly this plane. All of this is not worth it when we are churning out JF-17s at a relatively low cost and JF-17 has more capability. Only issue is we have simply so many Mirage Sqds that it will take at least another 5 years to fully replace all the fleet.


As you said "_Essentially PAC could make a brand new Mirage from scratch if you asked them"_
Then why dont PAC go for its local copy witj same delta wings change any component if thay want with thandar part. Like Chinese are doings for year coping others jets as it is.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Basel said:


> It's better to buy J-10C or J1X with lease instead of any handicapped bird from west.


If the option is available, I'd rather roll AZM into the J-35 with an ironclad agreement with the Chinese to source 33%+ of that fighter from Pakistan in perpetuity.

Should a PLAAF and PLAN order of 1,000 come through, it would mean *a lot *of jobs, work and hard/foreign-currency returns for Pakistan. It would allow PAC to invest the proceeds back into R&D and building out its pool of experts, special projects, etc.

You can set-up a tender: The PAF will co-invest in an FGFA provided the principal or main partner agrees to our workshare and technology/R&D sharing requirements. It's the most realistic avenue for getting a FGFA earlier than later.

I don't know if the Chinese will agree to intentionally create a potential fault in their supply chain by relying on Pakistan. However, I don't think it's impossible: with deft and skillful diplomacy (like convincing China that it's stature in the world is tied to its integration into regional powers -- ala US and Japan/ROK), it's doable.

We can't do much about the engineering and industrial limitations in so little time, but the foreign relations and diplomacy domain is another ballgame. The latter can affect the former, and it's never too late to do a good job at it.

@Deino @aziqbal @JamD

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## aziqbal

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) I have said all along that Azm will be FC-31 project tailored for PAF

but too many fanboys on this forum are dreaming about Pakistan building from scratch a 5 generation fighter and apparently we can also make the stealth engine and a 6th generation air to air missile for it too, ridiculous as they come

the Azm project will be in some form the J-31 it cannot be anything else, not even Turkish project too far out we cannot pull the Turks in

Yes China and FC-31 defiantly has a chance and even that we will be more like assembling and NOT building from scratch a true indigenous 5th generation fighter

now I will wait for some members to take the bait on this

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

aziqbal said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I have said all along that Azm will be FC-31 project tailored for PAF
> 
> but too many fanboys on this forum are dreaming about Pakistan building from scratch a 5 generation fighter and apparently we can also make the stealth engine and a 6th generation air to air missile for it too, ridiculous as they come
> 
> the Azm project will be in some form the J-31 it cannot be anything else, not even Turkish project too far out we cannot pull the Turks in
> 
> Yes China and FC-31 defiantly has a chance and even that we will be more like assembling and NOT building from scratch a true indigenous 5th generation fighter
> 
> now I will wait for some members to take the bait on this


The key is getting a decent % of the total manufacturing work. The rest is all for show, but if we are the source of 33%+ of the fighter -- i.e., landing gear, wings, canopy and tail -- that would be good enough. Entering the PLAAF/PLAN's supply chain would be a game changer, and a natural next step.

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## Scorpiooo

aziqbal said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I have said all along that Azm will be FC-31 project tailored for PAF
> 
> but too many fanboys on this forum are dreaming about Pakistan building from scratch a 5 generation fighter and apparently we can also make the stealth engine and a 6th generation air to air missile for it too, ridiculous as they come
> 
> the Azm project will be in some form the J-31 it cannot be anything else, not even Turkish project too far out we cannot pull the Turks in
> 
> Yes China and FC-31 defiantly has a chance and even that we will be more like assembling and NOT building from scratch a true indigenous 5th generation fighter
> 
> now I will wait for some members to take the bait on this


Solid point, most probably thing like thundar program but instead of open partnership of 60/40 it will hidden partnership 
Its quite clear china is not going for FC31 for its Airforce just its naval cousin version j35. That support another cousin version can outcome of project azm with minor differences or enhancements as per Pakistan need

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## aziqbal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The key is getting a decent % of the total manufacturing work. The rest is all for show, but if we are the source of 33%+ of the fighter -- i.e., landing gear, wings, canopy and tail -- that would be good enough. Entering the PLAAF/PLAN's supply chain would be a game changer, and a natural next step.



JF17 was 58% of the share and that too after how many years? if we get anywhere close to 33% on a 5th generation it would be a milestone, a total milestone 

it will probably start the same way JF17 started slowly build up the Pakistan contribution over years and decades ad reach a max of 60/40 at the end

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

aziqbal said:


> JF17 was 58% of the share and that too after how many years? if we get anywhere close to 33% on a 5th generation it would be a milestone, a total milestone
> 
> it will probably start the same way JF17 started slowly build up the Pakistan contribution over years and decades ad reach a max of 60/40 at the end


I was thinking along the lines of a workshare partnership with China.

So, we basically co-invest in their prime project (J-35), but with the condition that we supply 33% of the fighter to all customers (be it PLAN, PLAAF, PAF, etc). 

If the Chinese order 1,000 such aircraft, then 33% of the expenditure would happen in Pakistan. That would be the game changer for us -- billions of dollars flowing each and every year into Pakistan. It'll create jobs for sure, but also give PAC more profit to also reinvest in domestic R&D for later projects down the road.

The issue here isn't whether Pakistan can or can't do it, the bigger problem is whether the PLA will agree to extending its supply chain outside of China. This will take a lot of convincing from our end, but we can make that case:

1. China needs allies, or else, the US will succeed in surrounding it.

2. Chinese firms are welcome to invest in Pakistan and compete for that 33% too.

3. We can limit competition to some arms tenders to only Chinese companies (i.e., no consideration given to any other supplier, especially Western). 

4. PAC can prioritize the first 100 jets of its production work for only Chinese orders, so PAF orders will have to come later.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was thinking along the lines of a workshare partnership with China.
> 
> So, we basically co-invest in their prime project (J-35), but with the condition that we supply 33% of the fighter to all customers (be it PLAN, PLAAF, PAF, etc).
> 
> If the Chinese order 1,000 such aircraft, then 33% of the expenditure would happen in Pakistan. That would be the game changer for us -- billions of dollars flowing each and every year into Pakistan. It'll create jobs for sure, but also give PAC more profit to also reinvest in domestic R&D for later projects down the road.
> 
> The issue here isn't whether Pakistan can or can't do it, the bigger problem is whether the PLA will agree to extending its supply chain outside of China. This will take a lot of convincing from our end, but we can make that case:
> 
> 1. China needs allies, or else, the US will succeed in surrounding it.
> 
> 2. Chinese firms are welcome to invest in Pakistan and compete for that 33% too.
> 
> 3. We can limit competition to some arms tenders to only Chinese companies (i.e., no consideration given to any other supplier, especially Western).
> 
> 4. PAC can prioritize the first 100 jets of its production work for only Chinese orders, so PAF orders will have to come later.


Sir will china agrees to share its high tech 5th knowledge with Pakistan by giving partnership?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> Sir will china agrees to share its high tech 5th knowledge with Pakistan by giving partnership?


I don't know, we can't make a single engineering or R&D case for them share anything -- but we might have a chance from a foreign relations/diplomatic standpoint.

Simply put, does China want to be alone in the world? Because those are the stakes here. The US didn't need anyone else for the F-35, but it tied in a dozen roots all over the world to get buy-in from its allies.

It's the same story here.

The seat of a superpower comes with compromise, China can't have everything it wants -- it needs to give in order to take.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know, we can't make a single engineering or R&D case for them share anything -- but we might have a chance from a foreign relations/diplomatic standpoint.
> 
> Simply put, does China want to be alone in the world? Because those are the stakes here. The US didn't need anyone else for the F-35, but it tied in a dozen roots all over the world to get buy-in from its allies.
> 
> It's the same story here.
> 
> The seat of a superpower comes with compromise, China can't have everything it wants -- it needs to give in order to take.


Really solid and practical idea, hope PAC start thinking on these lines some day, otherwise dreamboys project azm it quite late 1.5 dacade atleast (if fruitful) 
On other hang most countries cut 5th gen programs directly started work on 6th gen like, france , uk, Sweden etc,
So time we will flying prototype other 6th will in production @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## CHI RULES

aziqbal said:


> JF17 was 58% of the share and that too after how many years? if we get anywhere close to 33% on a 5th generation it would be a milestone, a total milestone
> 
> it will probably start the same way JF17 started slowly build up the Pakistan contribution over years and decades ad reach a max of 60/40 at the end



Sir with start of Aviation city projects it looks like if everything goes as per plan the contribution in tech and software which is so far of Chinese or Western origin shall be domestic after a decade or so.

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## Trailer23

Not exactly my favorite, but I felt that the Mirage Riders deserve some love (too) on my YouTube Channel.






@Mirage Battle Commander​
@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain

@Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar 

My




hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## khail007

Thanks Sir G, for this awesome video, your editing skills are remarkable - thanks a lot.

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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> Not exactly my favorite, but I felt that the Mirage Riders deserve some love (too) on my YouTube Channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Mirage Battle Commander​
> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> 
> My
> View attachment 635322
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee



By far one of the best! The clips were very HD. Quite a number of unseen clips to be honest. 

I think we have been invested in thunder and F-16 too notice these jewels.

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## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> By far one of the best! The clips were very HD. Quite a number of unseen clips to be honest.


1. 50 Years of Mirages
2. 7th September event
3. Invincible Resolve
4. Some old ISPR Videos
5. Stock Footage from Dassault on Mirage III.

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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Not exactly my favorite, but I felt that the Mirage Riders deserve some love (too) on my YouTube Channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Mirage Battle Commander​
> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> 
> My
> View attachment 635322
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


now speed is fine i can see it . thanks bro

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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> Not exactly my favorite, but I felt that the Mirage Riders deserve some love (too) on my YouTube Channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Mirage Battle Commander​
> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> 
> My
> View attachment 635322
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Its great work. Would have been cool if we had a few frames of that H4 over Kashmir. Everythings still great though.
Edit: Actually just saw you have done that right in the end. Awesome!

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## Amaa'n

Trailer23 said:


> Not exactly my favorite, but I felt that the Mirage Riders deserve some love (too) on my YouTube Channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Mirage Battle Commander​
> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> 
> My
> View attachment 635322
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Perfect as always...thanks for your gr8 work.....
I will open a new thread for it to be shared on fb

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## Trango Towers

Excellent bro

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> Not exactly my favorite, but I felt that the Mirage Riders deserve some love (too) on my YouTube Channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Mirage Battle Commander​
> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> 
> My
> View attachment 635322
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Holy hell GOD DAMN This is beautiful------------Mirage Battle Commander APPROVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Seriously this is GOLD

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## TOPGUN

Great job bro thanks so much for sharing !!

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## Sabretooth

Trailer23 said:


> Not exactly my favorite, but I felt that the Mirage Riders deserve some love (too) on my YouTube Channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​




Fascinating. Your choice of music never disappoints. Keep it up.​

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## PakShaheen79

MashaAllah brother. What a fabulous job. That landing approach at Skardu base was simply majestic. Loved every second of this production.

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## GriffinsRule

Honestly my fave one so far.

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## graphican

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So, we basically co-invest in their prime project (J-35), but with the condition that we supply 33% of the fighter to all customers (be it PLAN, PLAAF, PAF, etc).



Never heard of *J-35* before. Is that Chines' new 5th gen initiative?


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## araz

khail007 said:


> Thanks Sir G, for this awesome video, your editing skills are remarkable - thanks a lot.


Great effort. Live long and prosper inshaaAllah.
A

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## Scorpiooo

graphican said:


> Never heard of *J-35* before. Is that Chines' new 5th gen initiative?


FC31 version for navy J35 (can says subling of J31/FC31)

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## jupiter2007

Basel said:


> It's better to buy J-10C or J1X with lease instead of any handicapped bird from west.



If Pakistan had the expertise in rebuilding Mirage fighter jets, i am wondering why Pakistan didn't build it's own version/copy of Mirage III/IV/V? Pakistan could have bought the blue print of Mirage from France but Pakistan choose not to invest in it. Could it be because of F-16 (purchase of 2nd hand F-16s, reliability and availability) purchase or Jf-17 project? It maybe too late to invest in Mirage planes since we are already building Jf-17 and AZM projects but I think we need a home grown Medium weight fighter to supplement both Jf-17 and AZM.

1) Light weight fighter JF-17 to replace A5, F7 and Mirage
2) Medium weight fighter to replace Mirage and F-16s
3) Heavy weight 5+ generation fighter for deep strike into enemy territory.


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## Trailer23

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> ------------Mirage Battle Commander APPROVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well, the PDF Version is what is uploaded on my YouTube Channel.

There is the Director's Cut  which I didn't add on the YouTube Channel 'cause I felt some guys wouldn't approve.

In that version at the end, where the image comes of the Mirage wrapped around the thorns (with a Rose) - an audio in the background says, _"You Delta Boys are a bunch of undisciplined Cowboys"_. Its a quote from *Black Hawk Down*.





The version goes straight on my Hard Drive.

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## Ali_Baba

Pakistan's ability to build "new components and structures" for the Mirage is rather overblown. if they could, they would have made the wings brand new in Pakistan, rather buying 2nd hand used wings with questionable history from third parties and putting them onto the Mirages.. that is why I think PAC is not as mature in manufacturing of structures of the Mirage. Doing repairs, and replacements, yes.. building new.. no..

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> Well, the PDF Version is what is uploaded on my YouTube Channel.
> 
> There is the Director's Cut  which I didn't add on the YouTube Channel 'cause I felt some guys wouldn't approve.
> 
> In that version at the end, where the image comes of the Mirage wrapped around the thorns (with a Rose) - an audio in the background says, _"You Delta Boys are a bunch of undisciplined Cowboys"_. Its a quote from *Black Hawk Down*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The version goes straight on my Hard Drive.



Delta for life


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## MastanKhan

jupiter2007 said:


> If Pakistan had the expertise in rebuilding Mirage fighter jets, i am wondering why Pakistan didn't build it's own version/copy of Mirage III/IV/V? Pakistan could have bought the blue print of Mirage from France but Pakistan choose not to invest in it. Could it be because of F-16 (purchase of 2nd hand F-16s, reliability and availability) purchase or Jf-17 project? It maybe too late to invest in Mirage planes since we are already building Jf-17 and AZM projects but I think we need a home grown Medium weight fighter to supplement both Jf-17 and AZM.
> 
> 1) Light weight fighter JF-17 to replace A5, F7 and Mirage
> 2) Medium weight fighter to replace Mirage and F-16s
> 3) Heavy weight 5+ generation fighter for deep strike into enemy territory.



Your dad's car mechanic rebuilds your dad's car engine---are yoiu expecting him to build the car engine and build a car now---?

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## Basel

jupiter2007 said:


> If Pakistan had the expertise in rebuilding Mirage fighter jets, i am wondering why Pakistan didn't build it's own version/copy of Mirage III/IV/V? Pakistan could have bought the blue print of Mirage from France but Pakistan choose not to invest in it. Could it be because of F-16 (purchase of 2nd hand F-16s, reliability and availability) purchase or Jf-17 project? It maybe too late to invest in Mirage planes since we are already building Jf-17 and AZM projects but I think we need a home grown Medium weight fighter to supplement both Jf-17 and AZM.
> 
> 1) Light weight fighter JF-17 to replace A5, F7 and Mirage
> 2) Medium weight fighter to replace Mirage and F-16s
> 3) Heavy weight 5+ generation fighter for deep strike into enemy territory.



Upgrading Mirages is what PAF have stuck with due to various factors, they never wanted to keep them that long, if they did then South Africa was able to provide required tech to rebuild them with zero airframe life.

Also India is upgrading Tejas to Medium category bird with structure changes which I think PAF also look into for JFT if they don't want off the shelf new fighter from abroad.

At the end PAF need a 4.++ Gen fighter to complement it's FGFA.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If the option is available, I'd rather roll AZM into the J-35 with an ironclad agreement with the Chinese to source 33%+ of that fighter from Pakistan in perpetuity.
> 
> Should a PLAAF and PLAN order of 1,000 come through, it would mean *a lot *of jobs, work and hard/foreign-currency returns for Pakistan. It would allow PAC to invest the proceeds back into R&D and building out its pool of experts, special projects, etc.
> 
> You can set-up a tender: The PAF will co-invest in an FGFA provided the principal or main partner agrees to our workshare and technology/R&D sharing requirements. It's the most realistic avenue for getting a FGFA earlier than later.
> 
> I don't know if the Chinese will agree to intentionally create a potential fault in their supply chain by relying on Pakistan. However, I don't think it's impossible: with deft and skillful diplomacy (like convincing China that it's stature in the world is tied to its integration into regional powers -- ala US and Japan/ROK), it's doable.
> 
> We can't do much about the engineering and industrial limitations in so little time, but the foreign relations and diplomacy domain is another ballgame. The latter can affect the former, and it's never too late to do a good job at it.
> 
> @Deino @aziqbal @JamD



Why stick with just China when with good diplomacy we can built FGFA like Gripen.

Get Turkey, China, Ukraine and UK on board, remember UK want partners in it's 6th gen bird and Pakistan can jump to that wagon in future if play it's card well.


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## jupiter2007

Basel said:


> Upgrading Mirages is what PAF have stuck with due to various factors, they never wanted to keep them that long, if they did then South Africa was able to provide required tech to rebuild them with zero airframe life.
> 
> Also India is upgrading Tejas to Medium category bird with structure changes which I think PAF also look into for JFT if they don't want off the shelf new fighter from abroad.
> 
> At the end PAF need a 4.++ Gen fighter to complement it's FGFA.
> 
> 
> 
> Why stick with just China when with good diplomacy we can built FGFA like Gripen.
> 
> Get Turkey, China, Ukraine and UK on board, remember UK want partners in it's 6th gen bird and Pakistan can jump to that wagon in future if play it's card well.



Both China and Turkey can help in new design for medium weight fighter jet.


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## araz

Basel said:


> Upgrading Mirages is what PAF have stuck with due to various factors, they never wanted to keep them that long, if they did then South Africa was able to provide required tech to rebuild them with zero airframe life.
> 
> Also India is upgrading Tejas to Medium category bird with structure changes which I think PAF also look into for JFT if they don't want off the shelf new fighter from abroad.
> 
> At the end PAF need a 4.++ Gen fighter to complement it's FGFA.
> 
> 
> 
> Why stick with just China when with good diplomacy we can built FGFA like Gripen.
> 
> Get Turkey, China, Ukraine and UK on board, remember UK want partners in it's 6th gen bird and Pakistan can jump to that wagon in future if play it's card well.


The story of mirages can be summed up poetically in Aleem's shair
*Kuch isq tha kuch majbori thee* so main nay jewan haar diya.
Main kaisa zinda aadmi tha aik shaqs nay mujh ko mar diya
In short the Mirages are partly love and partly necessity brought out of lack of finances.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Basel said:


> Why stick with just China when with good diplomacy we can built FGFA like Gripen.
> 
> Get Turkey, China, Ukraine and UK on board, remember UK want partners in it's 6th gen bird and Pakistan can jump to that wagon in future if play it's card well.


Unfortunately, Saab doesn't own the engine and flight control technology.

China can cover every end of the chain, and it can do it today -- so the PAF can get a project rolling in earnest in the next 7-10 years. We should definitely diversify, but we should partner with states in areas that they're already doing well in: e.g., air-to-air/air-to-surface weapons tech with South Africa, ships and helicopters with Turkey, engines with Ukraine, airliners with Brazil, armour design with Poland, etc. But for aerospace, I'd say China is the best partner.

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## Armchair

The J-31 is an unsuitable design for air superiority.

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## Syed1.

Armchair said:


> The J-31 is an unsuitable design for air superiority.


Definitely an armchair opinion.

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## LKJ86

Basel said:


> Why stick with just China when with good diplomacy we can built FGFA like Gripen.
> 
> Get Turkey, China, Ukraine and UK on board, remember UK want partners in it's 6th gen bird and Pakistan can jump to that wagon in future if play it's card well.


Yep, South Korea and Turkey also take that way to develop their KF-X and TF-X.

And Pakistan can choose many western components that PAF loves, as it is impossible for J-XX project in China.



Armchair said:


> The J-31 is an unsuitable design for air superiority.


PLAN needs a carrier-based fighter jet that can fight against F-35C, while PLAAF needs a new one that is different from J-20.
And what about PAF?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> Yep, South Korea and Turkey also take that way to develop their KF-X and TF-X.
> 
> And Pakistan can choose many western components that PAF loves, as it is impossible for J-XX project in China.
> 
> 
> PLAN needs a carrier-based fighter jet that can fight against F-35C, while PLAAF needs a new one that is different from J-20.
> And what about PAF?


The PAF wants a twin-engine design with super-cruising and enough upgrade room/future-proofing to one day carry directed energy weapons. IMO I don't think the PAF cares too much about maneuverability (should be good, but not the defining feature). The main goals are stealth, range and payload.

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## Vortex

Trailer23 said:


> Not exactly my favorite, but I felt that the Mirage Riders deserve some love (too) on my YouTube Channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Mirage Battle Commander​
> @Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> 
> My
> View attachment 635322
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee



amazing bro ! Really amazing !


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## araz

Armchair said:


> The J-31 is an unsuitable design for air superiority.


Could you kindly elaborate as I am unaware of the technical basis for your statement. Seiously this is for my learning and I want to see what you have to say.

A


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## MastanKhan

Syed1. said:


> Definitely an armchair opinion.



Hi,

Why would you say that----? 

Would it make any difference to you if someone stated that the F-16 is an unstable design as well---.

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## CHI RULES

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF wants a twin-engine design with super-cruising and enough upgrade room/future-proofing to one day carry directed energy weapons. IMO I don't think the PAF cares too much about maneuverability (should be good, but not the defining feature). The main goals are stealth, range and payload.



Sir with development of anti stealth tech PAF should also keep focus on maneuverability and defensive capabilities. Pakistan has got Chinese radar YJ27 as well as Vera sensors perhaps.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

jupiter2007 said:


> 2) Medium weight fighter to replace Mirage and F-16s


and why, in your opinion, do we need to replace the F-16?


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## jupiter2007

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> and why, in your opinion, do we need to replace the F-16?



Because everything has a shelf life just like A5C and F-7s. Eventually will have to replace F-16s with something else.

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## nomi007

The only 1 thing which PAF did not achieve is reverse engineering of the Mirage III/V engine.


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## Shah_Deu

nomi007 said:


> The only 1 thing which PAF did not achieve is reverse engineering of the Mirage III/V engine.


Brother, reverse engineering is easier said than done

As an example, a small high pressure fuel injector (similar to what we are using in the IC engines of our cars) is also used in the combustion chamber of a jet engine. This small single injector itself is a sub assembly of different components and many such sub assemblies combine to form the whole engine.

So, when we talk of reverse engineering, we are talking about recreating all the thousands of parts involved, each and every one of them, because Snecma for sure is not going to give it for obvious reasons.

Recreating thousands of parts means, recreating their drawings first which could have tolerances in 0.001mm ranges. One no-go part means, the others wouldn't fit.

The production of so many individual parts is bloody expensive due to the absense of industry of scale. So the EU and US mainly try to commonize parts used in different industries and products to reduce their costs. Similarly, R&D costs are commonized across products. Like a dual-use oil pump, fuel pump, HP injectors, HP fuel lines etc etc.

For a poor country like us, it doesnt make any sense. Even Sweden is just an integrator of Gripens. Apart from their core competencies, they outsource it all from the EU and US.

There is a reason the chinese who are the best in reverse engineering stuff are still facing problems going forward with their jet engines.

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## denel

Ali_Baba said:


> Pakistan's ability to build "new components and structures" for the Mirage is rather overblown. if they could, they would have made the wings brand new in Pakistan, rather buying 2nd hand used wings with questionable history from third parties and putting them onto the Mirages.. that is why I think PAC is not as mature in manufacturing of structures of the Mirage. Doing repairs, and replacements, yes.. building new.. no..


Yes it is overblown. This is where i have lamented there were so many opportunities to streamline a supply chain/TOT with atlas - it was just ignored.



Basel said:


> Upgrading Mirages is what PAF have stuck with due to various factors, they never wanted to keep them that long, if they did then South Africa was able to provide required tech to rebuild them with zero airframe life.
> 
> Also India is upgrading Tejas to Medium category bird with structure changes which I think PAF also look into for JFT if they don't want off the shelf new fighter from abroad.
> 
> At the end PAF need a 4.++ Gen fighter to complement it's FGFA.
> 
> 
> 
> Why stick with just China when with good diplomacy we can built FGFA like Gripen.
> 
> Get Turkey, China, Ukraine and UK on board, remember UK want partners in it's 6th gen bird and Pakistan can jump to that wagon in future if play it's card well.



Correction - just wings were provided that were zero hours but no airframes. IFRs, radio comms/links were also passed ; same IFRs then show up in JF-17s

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## jupiter2007

nomi007 said:


> The only 1 thing which PAF did not achieve is reverse engineering of the Mirage III/V engine.



Pakistan could have bought the blue print from France for Mirage V or Mirage 4000 but PAF were and still is obsessed with F-16s.


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## GriffinsRule

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan could have bought the blue print from France for Mirage V or Mirage 4000 but PAF were and still is obsessed with F-16s.


Thats a nice joke

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## jupiter2007

GriffinsRule said:


> Thats a nice joke



If Pakistan purchased the blueprint of Mirage V in 80s or even in early 90s, we would have been able to produce, modify/upgrade them with the help of friendly countries.


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## LKJ86

jupiter2007 said:


> If Pakistan purchased the blueprint of Mirage V


You also have to buy the aviation industry system...

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## jupiter2007

LKJ86 said:


> You also have to buy the aviation industry system...



Just like Mirage ROSE upgrade project.....or Israeli or South African Mirage upgrade.


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## LKJ86

jupiter2007 said:


> Just like Mirage ROSE upgrade project.....or Israeli or South African Mirage upgrade.


If you think it is OK, why would you consider to buy the blueprint...


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## Shah_Deu

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan could have bought the blue print from France for Mirage V or Mirage 4000 but PAF were and still is obsessed with F-16s.


There is no such thing as a 'blueprint'. Its just a very vague term. Just like we got the 'blueprints' of Agosta 90B submarines and still cant build even one more example of it.

Just like the indians want to have 'technology transfer' and 'blueprints' of everything they can possibly dream of, the idea is literally something the europeans laugh at.

A fisherman can sell you as many fish you want, but he would never want to sell you his fishing rod and wont show you the tricks of his trade. Simply because, nobody wants to kill a goose laying 'golden eggs'.

We need to understand some things are embedded in the culture and psyche of a nation. Technology is on of them. Example: In Germany, let a girl aside, even an old lady would tell you exactly how big her car's engine is and how much PS (power) her car engine produces. I am a 100% sure that 99% people in our country wont know how much power their car produces (not the displacement). Let the car aside, do you know how much power a standard CD-70 engine in Pakistan produces or a Vespa Moped for that matter?

So the point being, that the nations live and breathe technology as their daily ritual. It is embedded in their culture over decades and is not something for sale; on the contrary, the products are. French could have sold us the assembly line of Mirages, yes, but just because it would not have made us independent of them. So it wouldn't have taught us anything significantly more than what we are currently doing by assembling the Mirages in our rebuild factory.

Expecting them to sell you their trade and kill their own customer just for a few bucks is just too naive of us to think. Otherwise, the Chinese would have bought not only the 'blueprints' but the whole European and US jet engine and aerospace industry decades ago..

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## RJV

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF wants a twin-engine design with super-cruising and enough upgrade room/future-proofing to one day carry directed energy weapons. *IMO I don't think the PAF cares too much about maneuverability (should be good, but not the defining feature).* The main goals are stealth, range and payload.



Really? You think or is it based on some interaction with someone? I was always assuming that PAF being a fighter oriented air-force cares way too much about maneuverability. we just seems to love small, single engine fighters.

In fact i was fearing that project AZM would turn up like JF-17. A good fighter in its class but not enough space for new toys.
Sorry for being off topic. But since you mentioned it in mirage thread, i couldn't resist myself.

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## jupiter2007

Shah_Deu said:


> There is no such thing as a 'blueprint'. Its just a very vague term. Just like we got the 'blueprints' of Agosta 90B submarines and still cant build even one more example of it.
> 
> Just like the indians want to have 'technology transfer' and 'blueprints' of everything they can possibly dream of, the idea is literally something the europeans laugh at.
> 
> A fisherman can sell you as many fish you want, but he would never want to sell you his fishing rod and wont show you the tricks of his trade. Simply because, nobody wants to kill a goose laying 'golden eggs'.
> 
> We need to understand some things are embedded in the culture and psyche of a nation. Technology is on of them. Example: In Germany, let a girl aside, even an old lady would tell you exactly how big her car's engine is and how much PS (power) her car engine produces. I am a 100% sure that 99% people in our country wont know how much power their car produces (not the displacement). Let the car aside, do you know how much power a standard CD-70 engine in Pakistan produces or a Vespa Moped for that matter?
> 
> So the point being, that the nations live and breathe technology as their daily ritual. It is embedded in their culture over decades and is not something for sale; on the contrary, the products are. French could have sold us the assembly line of Mirages, yes, but just because it would not have made us independent of them. So it wouldn't have taught us anything significantly more than what we are currently doing by assembling the Mirages in our rebuild factory.
> 
> Expecting them to sell you their trade and kill their own customer just for a few bucks is just too naive of us to think. Otherwise, the Chinese would have bought not only the 'blueprints' but the whole European and US jet engine and aerospace industry decades ago..



France wouldn't care of selling blue print/technology of something they are no longer producing.

As far as China is concerned, they could have if there had the chance but Western governments put sanctions against China after 1989. Even now China can only buy Military goods from Russia. Whenever China got a chance, they bought or stole the technology.

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## GriffinsRule

jupiter2007 said:


> France wouldn't care of selling blue print/technology of something they are no longer producing.
> 
> As far as China is concerned, they could have if there had the chance but Western governments put sanctions against China after 1989. Even now China can only buy Military goods from Russia. Whenever China got a chance, they bought or stole the technology.
> 
> 
> View attachment 636599


Just because they give you the blue prints of something does not mean PAC will suddenly also gain the ability to produce the product.

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## jupiter2007

GriffinsRule said:


> Just because they give you the blue prints of something does not mean PAC will suddenly also gain the ability to produce the product.



You don't buy a car if you don't know how to drive.....that part is understood.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RJV said:


> Really? You think or is it based on some interaction with someone? I was always assuming that PAF being a fighter oriented air-force cares way too much about maneuverability. we just seems to love small, single engine fighters.
> 
> In fact i was fearing that project AZM would turn up like JF-17. A good fighter in its class but not enough space for new toys.
> Sorry for being off topic. But since you mentioned it in mirage thread, i couldn't resist myself.


Well, the love for small, single-engine aircraft comes from a lack of options, either due to insufficient funding or thin markets. So, the ASR for sure is for a twin-engine fighter with enough room for directed energy weapons, and with supercruising engines. They clearly don't intend to compromise anywhere, but it's going to depend a lot on whether the PAF can access (either indigenously or from China/Turkey) the right design.

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## jupiter2007

_*In my humble opinion Pakistan need 2 squadrons of China's J-16D Electronic Warfare Plane.*_

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## araz

jupiter2007 said:


> _*In my humble opinion Pakistan need 2 squadrons of China's J-16D Electronic Warfare Plane.*_
> View attachment 636917
> View attachment 636917


I am not 100%sure but I have read that theChinese have taken the emphasis away from the J16s instead concentrating on the J20 plus possibly J31/35 for ship borne fighter. It was implied that there have been problems with the platform although I cannot remember whether they mentioned the problems.
Regards
A


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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> I am not 100%sure but I have read that theChinese have taken the emphasis away from the J16s instead concentrating on the J20 plus possibly J31/35 for ship borne fighter. It was implied that there have been problems with the platform although I cannot remember whether they mentioned the problems.
> Regards
> A


There not much problem with j16, 
actually J11 and J16 series perform same role an capabilities, they don't need to have 2 different plateform having similar capabilities and capacity


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## jupiter2007

Scorpiooo said:


> There not much problem, actually J11 and J16 series profeem same role an capabilities, they meed not have 2 different plateform having similar capabilities and capacity



Anyone taking about JH-7 need to realize that China has stopped It’s production and will eventually replace It with J-16D.
J-16D is a modified version of J-11 with the bigger nose to house more hardware and should be considered by PAF/PN.

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## Ultima Thule

jupiter2007 said:


> J-16D modified version of J-11 with the bigger nose to house more hardware and should be considered by PAF/PN.


NOT FROM J-11 BUT DEVELOPED FROM Su-30MKK/MKK2 AND WE CAN'T GET IT BECUASE J-16'S DESIGN IS RUSSIAN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

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## jupiter2007

IAU said:


> NOT FROM J-11 BUT DEVELOPED FROM Su-30MKK/MKK2 AND WE CAN'T GET IT BECUASE J-16'S DESIGN IS RUSSIAN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY



it’s not like China bought the technology from Russia. It’s copied from J-11/SU-30


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## Ultima Thule

jupiter2007 said:


> it’s not like China bought the technology from Russia. It’s copied from J-11/SU-30


J-11 is developed from Su-27 that china have, J-16 developed from Su-30 MKK/MKK2 not from J-11 and the main point is that WE CAN'T GET J-16 BECAUSE OF THE DESIGN IS RUSSIAN, AND RUSSIAN WONT ALLOW CHINA TO SELL THEIR J-16D (RUSSIAN BASED DESIGN) TO THIRD COUNTRY


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## LKJ86

IAU said:


> J-16 developed from Su-30 MKK/MKK2


J-16 developed from J-11BS, and J-11BS from Su-27UBK.

Su-27UBK






J-11BS





J-16

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## Scorpiooo

jupiter2007 said:


> Anyone taking about JH-7 need to realize that China has stopped It’s production and will eventually replace It with J-16D.
> J-16D is a modified version of J-11 with the bigger nose to house more hardware and should be considered by PAF/PN.


They also have J11D , which i think thay placed in ladakh too



IAU said:


> J-11 is developed from Su-27 that china have, J-16 developed from Su-30 MKK/MKK2 not from J-11 and the main point is that WE CAN'T GET J-16 BECAUSE OF THE DESIGN IS RUSSIAN, AND RUSSIAN WONT ALLOW CHINA TO SELL THEIR J-16D (RUSSIAN BASED DESIGN) TO THIRD COUNTRY


True , till china dont have option to sale this flankers series to any country 
In past chana have this option for, F5, F6, F7 others which were chines copies of mig 17, 19 and mig 21 that Pakistan was able to have them

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## Ultima Thule

Scorpiooo said:


> They also have J11D , which i think thay placed in ladakh too


No, their no J-11D bro project might be dead or delayed, no confirmation of J-11D's project have been completed


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## Scorpiooo

IAU said:


> No, their no J-11D bro project might be dead or delayed, no confirmation of J-11D's project have been completed


Ok, will reconfirm it, thanks for sharing


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## Ultima Thule

Scorpiooo said:


> Ok, will reconfirm it, thanks for sharing


Bro we had few initial grainy pics of J-11D prototype but after Su-35 , the J-11D project may be shelved or delayed there no information of J-11D project in Chinese defense sites


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## araz

IAU said:


> Bro we had few initial grainy pics of J-11D prototype but after Su-35 , the J-11D project may be shelved or delayed there no information of J-11D project in Chinese defense sites


There appears to be no need with the PLAAF entering the 5th generation domain with J20. Once they mature the design and most probably the engine they will ramp up production to the routine Chinese numbers of 50 to 60/year.
A

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## jupiter2007

araz said:


> There appears to be no need with the PLAAF entering the 5th generation domain with J20. Once they mature the design and most probably the engine they will ramp up production to the routine Chinese numbers of 50 to 60/year.
> A



What if Chinese further modify the frame?

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## Nomad40

any one know about the jh-7r rumor i have waited for like 5hrs NOTHING

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## araz

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> any one know about the jh-7r rumor i have waited for like 5hrs NOTHING


It is just a rumour. I dont think there is any sense in this one. We are buying older air frames from all over the world and then suddenly want to buy 100 air frames of an obsolete Chinese plane for the same role having rejected it for decades. It seems unlikely.
A



jupiter2007 said:


> What if Chinese further modify the frame?
> View attachment 637138


I think it seems unlikely that the Chinese will try and convert the series into a lo obs platform specially when they already have 2 platforms that they are working on. So this one might not be true. There may also be issues with intellectual rights and other problems with the Russians which are best off avoided at this moment.
A
A

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## LKJ86

Scorpiooo said:


> They also have J11D , which i think thay placed in ladakh too


J-11D has turned into the upgrade package of J-11B, called J-11BG.



jupiter2007 said:


> What if Chinese further modify the frame?
> View attachment 637138


In the past, SAC did want to further modify the frame, but PLAAF refused SAC to waste the money and time to do that job. And SAC and CAC focus on 5th-generation fighters already.

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## American Dragon

I hear some mirages are coming to Pk from Egypt. The C130 in these pics probably carrying them. 

Gonna be a great addition, and lethal in the hands of PAF, henna na?

Images taken from Plane Spotters Pakistan forum on Facebook, photo credits on the pics.

PK zindabad, PAF paindabad!!!

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## ziaulislam

jupiter2007 said:


> What if Chinese further modify the frame?
> View attachment 637138


whats this?

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## Armchair

American Dragon said:


> View attachment 638136
> View attachment 638137
> 
> 
> I hear some mirages are coming to Pk from Egypt. The C130 in these pics probably carrying them.
> 
> Gonna be a great addition, and lethal in the hands of PAF, henna na?
> 
> Images taken from Plane Spotters Pakistan forum on Facebook, photo credits on the pics.
> 
> PK zindabad, PAF paindabad!!!



Is this confirmed? I thought the deal was stalled because of a lack of brown envelopes. I was just looking through some other countries that could sell theirs:

1. Switzerland - 50 retired and in storage. They also have production tooling
2. Venezuela - in need of cash and have 20 in storage
3. Peru - 20 (?) in storage
4. Chile - 30 (?) in storage
5. Brazil - 20 (?) in storage
6. Belgium ??
7. Argentina - 50 (??) in storage

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Armchair said:


> Is this confirmed? I thought the deal was stalled because of a lack of brown envelopes. I was just looking through some other countries that could sell theirs:
> 
> 1. Switzerland - 50 retired and in storage. They also have production tooling
> 2. Venezuela - in need of cash and have 20 in storage
> 3. Peru - 20 (?) in storage
> 4. Chile - 30 (?) in storage
> 5. Brazil - 20 (?) in storage
> 6. Belgium ??
> 7. Argentina - 50 (??) in storage


*It will be an excellent news if we have started to receive HORUS. Mirages are a very reliable and potent platform, even if we get a 100 more at a price of a missile each ,its something we will not regret.*

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## airomerix



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## Scorpiooo

Any update on Egyptians Mirages in actual , when thay will land ? Or deal is still stuck



FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *It will be an excellent news if we have started to receive HORUS. Mirages are a very reliable and potent platform, even if we get a 100 more at a price of a missile each ,its something we will not regret.*
> View attachment 638259
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 638262


Sir what additional feature Horus have then pakistani Rose mirages 5

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## mingle

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *It will be an excellent news if we have started to receive HORUS. Mirages are a very reliable and potent platform, even if we get a 100 more at a price of a missile each ,its something we will not regret.*
> View attachment 638259
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 638262


They are coming I believe everything is clear now and they are in fly away conditions.

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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> They are coming I believe everything is clear now and they are in fly away conditions.



guessing ?? Or what’s the source ?

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## syed_yusuf

mingle said:


> They are coming I believe everything is clear now and they are in fly away conditions.


All 36 of them in flyable condition ?

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## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> All 36 of them in flyable condition ?


Yes



mingle said:


> Yes


I am talking about Horus mirages upgraded 2008-9

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## Incog_nito

Armchair said:


> Is this confirmed? I thought the deal was stalled because of a lack of brown envelopes. I was just looking through some other countries that could sell theirs:
> 
> 1. Switzerland - 50 retired and in storage. They also have production tooling
> 2. Venezuela - in need of cash and have 20 in storage
> 3. Peru - 20 (?) in storage
> 4. Chile - 30 (?) in storage
> 5. Brazil - 20 (?) in storage
> 6. Belgium ??
> 7. Argentina - 50 (??) in storage




Can you please explain this term? "brown envelopes"



FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *It will be an excellent news if we have started to receive HORUS. Mirages are a very reliable and potent platform, even if we get a 100 more at a price of a missile each ,its something we will not regret.*
> View attachment 638259
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 638262



They are the most effective bombing/strike platform in PAF fleet. 4 tons or 5 tons of bombs can be loaded and Air refueling can be added easily on these to make them reach the target and then come back home safely.

Mirage IIIs/Vs are not only good for our Eastern front wars but unfortunately on the Western front wars that we might, unfortunately, going to see in the near future.
(I wish it won't going to happen in any front - Amen)

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## Armchair

Incog_nito said:


> Can you please explain this term? "brown envelopes"
> 
> 
> 
> They are the most effective bombing/strike platform in PAF fleet. 4 tons or 5 tons of bombs can be loaded and Air refueling can be added easily on these to make them reach the target and then come back home safely.
> 
> Mirage IIIs/Vs are not only good for our Eastern front wars but unfortunately on the Western front wars that we might, unfortunately, going to see in the near future.
> (I wish it won't going to happen in any front - Amen)



Its a classified term... you may need to ask your PAF buddies about it. 
I see the silver lining on the clouds coming - Iran has been creating endless problems and if the West defangs them, Pak should make sure that the Western front gets a lasting settlement that solves the problem permanently.


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## araz

Armchair said:


> Its a classified term... you may need to ask your PAF buddies about it.
> I see the silver lining on the clouds coming - Iran has been creating endless problems and if the West defangs them, Pak should make sure that the Western front gets a lasting settlement that solves the problem permanently.


Now my theory is totally different. If the focus is the oil money of the kingdoms and continuing sales of armaments to nations who in times of war may not have the time or even inclination and training to use them, then what better argument than to create a focus to scare them with. And if this theory is correct then till such time there is money to be gained why remove that thorn in the side. 
For Paklands the focus should be on fencing the border +/- mining it and leaving all the festering hatred on that side. Any flying objects are an open announcement of hostilities which frankly Iranians wont be stupid enough to do as they have already been warned of rapid and crippling response from this side. If that happens we can look at creating a buffer zone inSistan and the world will have no option but to accept our version of events. However all said and done let's hope sanity prevails on both sides. We can establish a barter system of trade and mutually benefit from each other's markets without the curse of smuggling.

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## Armchair

So it seems Horus is not coming to PAF (based on a senior member's post). I think the last shot at it should be handed to the civilian administration; PM Imran Khan has a very good working relationship with MBS. Perhaps this is something he can help with. 

If we are going there, I suggest ask for all the Mirages not just the Horus. Buy the entire lot.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> So it seems Horus is not coming to PAF (based on a senior member's post). I think the last shot at it should be handed to the civilian administration; PM Imran Khan has a very good working relationship with MBS. Perhaps this is something he can help with.
> 
> If we are going there, I suggest ask for all the Mirages not just the Horus. Buy the entire lot.


Let us see- there is a lot of yes/no on EAF M birds.

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## Scorpiooo

denel said:


> Let us see- there is a lot of yes/no on EAF M birds.


Can you share why this confusion arises, due to PAF change of mind, prices forn Egyptians or Egyptians changed of mind for deal


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## Talon

mingle said:


> They are coming I believe everything is clear now and they are in fly away conditions.


B.S

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## Pakistani Fighter

Hodor said:


> B.S


How many years are expected for Mirages to fly with PAF?

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## nomi007

Pakistani Fighter said:


> How many years are expected for Mirages to fly with PAF?


Jab tak hai jan.

elan warns tweet in this regard is very interested.

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## Scorpiooo

nomi007 said:


> Jab tak hai jan.
> 
> elan warns tweet in this regard is very interested.


Can you share


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## Bossman

Pakistani Fighter said:


> How many years are expected for Mirages to fly with PAF?


As long as the IAF Jaguars are flying as they are much better than the Jags in a strike role.

Jag is an unpowered trainer pretending to be a strike aircraft.


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## denel

Scorpiooo said:


> Can you share why this confusion arises, due to PAF change of mind, prices forn Egyptians or Egyptians changed of mind for deal


Could be any reason; by now these should have been here given the amount of noise generated. Either Master Bone Sawer squeezed Pharoah Sisi to hold off etc.

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## Incog_nito

Why not PAF make a separate wing or a force of Mirages and keep them for only strike missions?

BTW, is PAF still open to acquire more Mirages from ex-users?


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## jupiter2007

Incog_nito said:


> Why not PAF make a separate wing or a force of Mirages and keep them for only strike missions?
> 
> BTW, is PAF still open to acquire more Mirages from ex-users?



Majority of countries have retired their fleet
of Mirage 3/5 ten years ago. Currently Pakistan is only country that has Mirage 3/5 still flying. Honestly these should have been replaced 10 years ago with surplus F-16 or JF-17 or another planes.

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## Yasser76

jupiter2007 said:


> Majority of countries have retired their fleet
> of Mirage 3/5 ten years ago. Currently Pakistan is only country that has Mirage 3/5 still flying. Honestly these should have been replaced 10 years ago with surplus F-16 or JF-17 or another planes.



You need to look at this on an individual basis. Yes, it's not great that PAF is only Mirage 3/5 user but PAF does not really suffer many of the problems that would come with being a sole user for several reasons.

1) The sheer size of our fleet. Just like USAF is worlds only Raptor user and IAF is worlds only Jaguar user, PAF has a fleet of around 110 active and 60 surplus air frames. 
2) Spares and overhaul. As this is done in house and we can completely rebuild a Mirage from ground up, spares are also no problem consideirng the amount of spare airframes
3) Pilot training. PAF has a massive pool of Mirage pilots, many of whom are QFIs so there will never be a shortage of experienced men to pass on knowledge, a strong Mirage "culture" has grown in PAF
5) The Mirage 3/5 has approx the same thrust to weight ratio as the IAF Jaguar but almost twice the speed and 30% more combat range (more now that many can be air refuelled)
6) Even ROSE versions are becoming quite old now, but for South Asia still very useful for deep strike and stand off strike like we saw on Feb 27th. As air defence fighter it has run it's course and should be retired. Mirage also very useful for weapons trials and development as we have seen with RAAD. Babur. H2/H4

All in all my guess if that once JF-17s/Surplus F-16s replace all the F-7Ps, then PAF will retire air defence Mirages then finally ROSE Strike Mirages. My guess is F-7PG will stay on for another 10-15 years as the airframes are quite new and have been equipped with Grifo, the F-7PG units are stationed at Samunguli and Peshawar by the quiet Iran/Afghan borders. Also handy to have this plane for lead in training and DACM

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## Bilal.

Yasser76 said:


> You need to look at this on an individual basis. Yes, it's not great that PAF is only Mirage 3/5 user but PAF does not really suffer many of the problems that would come with being a sole user for several reasons.
> 
> 1) The sheer size of our fleet. Just like USAF is worlds only Raptor user and IAF is worlds only Jaguar user, PAF has a fleet of around 110 active and 60 surplus air frames.
> 2) Spares and overhaul. As this is done in house and we can completely rebuild a Mirage from ground up, spares are also no problem consideirng the amount of spare airframes
> 3) Pilot training. PAF has a massive pool of Mirage pilots, many of whom are QFIs so there will never be a shortage of experienced men to pass on knowledge, a strong Mirage "culture" has grown in PAF
> 5) The Mirage 3/5 has approx the same thrust to weight ratio as the IAF Jaguar but almost twice the speed and 30% more combat range (more now that many can be air refuelled)
> 6) Even ROSE versions are becoming quite old now, but for South Asia still very useful for deep strike and stand off strike like we saw on Feb 27th. As air defence fighter it has run it's course and should be retired. Mirage also very useful for weapons trials and development as we have seen with RAAD. Babur. H2/H4
> 
> All in all my guess if that once JF-17s/Surplus F-16s replace all the F-7Ps, then PAF will retire air defence Mirages then finally ROSE Strike Mirages. My guess is F-7PG will stay on for another 10-15 years as the airframes are quite new and have been equipped with Grifo, the F-7PG units are stationed at Samunguli and Peshawar by the quiet Iran/Afghan borders. Also handy to have this plane for lead in training and DACM



Also it basically frees up our F16s and JF17 to focus on air combat duties. That gives great flexibility to our Air Force.

Mirages are like our B52s.

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## Yasser76

Bilal. said:


> Also it basically frees up our F16s and JF17 to focus on air combat duties. That gives great flexibility to our Air Force.
> 
> Mirages are like our B52s.



Yes, absolutely, but remember the US as continously upgraded the B-52, our ROSE upgrade is approaching 30 years of age. The Grifo radar is a very decent set (on par with APG-66) but will be suseptible to the latest EW and raneg is limited. These planes should be retired from air defence.

For ground attack the basic FLIR and EW fit on the ROSE II/III are still very good for the South Asian context and give us an additional night attack ability but is still at least a generation behind the ASEL Pod and Sniper pods of the JF-17s and F-16s.

Ideally the Mirage needs it's own pod too but then you are adding more weight on.

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## Bilal.

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, absolutely, but remember the US as continously upgraded the B-52, our ROSE upgrade is approaching 30 years of age. The Grifo radar is a very decent set (on par with APG-66) but will be suseptible to the latest EW and raneg is limited. These planes should be retired from air defence.
> 
> For ground attack the basic FLIR and EW fit on the ROSE II/III are still very good for the South Asian context and give us an additional night attack ability but is still at least a generation behind the ASEL Pod and Sniper pods of the JF-17s and F-16s.
> 
> Ideally the Mirage needs it's own pod too but then you are adding more weight on.



True, but my contention is that Radar is almost secondary for the evolving role of the Mirages. If anything they need solid Comms (which if I am not mistaking they already have in the form of R&S SDR), solid networking capabilities hooking it into our NCW capabilities to tap into the SA picture and updated Nav/Attack systems as bomb truck for standoff weapons who’s primary role is to drop its payload and turn tail.

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## Yasser76

Bilal. said:


> True, but my contention is that Radar is almost secondary for the evolving role of the Mirages. If anything they need solid Comms (which if I am not mistaking they already have in the form of R&S SDR), solid networking capabilities hooking it into our NCW capabilities to tap into the SA picture and updated Nav/Attack systems as bomb truck for standoff weapons who’s primary role is to drop its payload and turn tail.



Totally agree, but point is at some point the opportunity cost of equipping a old Mirage with these in terms of added weight and expedicture mean you may as well just wait for a year or two for JF-17s to replace the planes. This is what PAF seem to be doing as there is no major Mirage upgrade in the pipeline

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## Bilal.

Yasser76 said:


> Totally agree, but point is at some point the opportunity cost of equipping a old Mirage with these in terms of added weight and expedicture mean you may as well just wait for a year or two for JF-17s to replace the planes. This is what PAF seem to be doing as there is no major Mirage upgrade in the pipeline



I honestly think that point is about 10 years away.


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## Yasser76

Bilal. said:


> I honestly think that point is about 10 years away.



Depends, if we really can produce 26 JF-17s a year then even with export order in 4-5 years most of the old Mirages and F-7Ps should be gone. Agree that the ROSE II/III maybe required to serve another decade

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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> Depends, if we really can produce 26 JF-17s a year then even with export order in 4-5 years most of the old Mirages and F-7Ps should be gone. Agree that the ROSE II/III maybe required to serve another decade


Yasser.
More than the production schedule and capacity issue it is simply a financial issue as well.Precisely the same reason applies to not replacing the M3/5s in the absence of a financially viable replacement solution. Secondly, looking at the block 3 production schedule they are suggesting producing just 12 a year. I am clueless as to the reasons for this.
Regards
A


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## Yasser76

araz said:


> Yasser.
> More than the production schedule and capacity issue it is simply a financial issue as well.Precisely the same reason applies to not replacing the M3/5s in the absence of a financially viable replacement solution. Secondly, looking at the block 3 production schedule they are suggesting producing just 12 a year. I am clueless as to the reasons for this.
> Regards
> A



JF-17 was supposed to be our financially viable light fighter, whilst F-16/AZM took care of medium weight catagory. The whole point of JF-17 was to replace the large F-7/Mirage fleets. As you say, if production capacity s just 16 a year then we are in trouble, but I guess even at 16 a year, 5 years production gives us 4 more Sqds which in itself is enough to replace the3 remaining two active F-7P and Mirage ROSE I squadrons. If push comes to shove we can also get JF-17s off the Chinese production line.

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## nomi007

Scorpiooo said:


> Can you share


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


>


first 3 seconds are enough to understand . he used USAF image

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## jupiter2007

while working on JF-17 project, we should have considered other options.

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## Imran Khan

jupiter2007 said:


> View attachment 641921
> 
> 
> View attachment 641935
> 
> while working on JF-17 project, we should have considered other options.


there was 100s of problems those days sir .engine re export was major issue .


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## nomi007

*Mirage III/V has outlived many of its contemporaries, celebrating 50+ years of Service with PAF. PAF owns almost all remaining Mirage III/V models including EP, RP, D, VD, V, VPA, VPA2, VPA3, III0, IIIEA, IIIDA, VEF, IIIDF, IIIEL, IIIDL, VDD and ROSE and has a rebuild factory in place since 70s.*




REAL LIFE

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## Yasser76

Great pictures. As I said, Mirage is sturdy strike platform with decent range and attack avionics. In air defence now needs to be retired. Grifo/AIM-9L combo simply not good enough for South Asian scenario anymore.

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## jupiter2007

nomi007 said:


> *Mirage III/V has outlived many of its contemporaries, celebrating 50+ years of Service with PAF. PAF owns almost all remaining Mirage III/V models including EP, RP, D, VD, V, VPA, VPA2, VPA3, III0, IIIEA, IIIDA, VEF, IIIDF, IIIEL, IIIDL, VDD and ROSE and has a rebuild factory in place since 70s.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> REAL LIFE



With all that in place, their technical expertise were limited to refurbishing old frames. They could not build a new mirage frame or upgrade to more powerful engine in existing frame.

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## Reichmarshal

Mirages are and will only be used in ground attack role including CAS.
They will be a means of the very last resort if they are ever used in the air defence role.......meaning the air war is already lost as we have lost all or most of our air to air warfare platforms.

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## syed_yusuf

jupiter2007 said:


> With all that in place, their technical expertise were limited to refurbishing old frames. They could not build a new mirage frame or upgrade to more powerful engine in existing frame.


This statement makes me go bonkers and just wonder why ?

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## Incog_nito

jupiter2007 said:


> Majority of countries have retired their fleet
> of Mirage 3/5 ten years ago. Currently Pakistan is only country that has Mirage 3/5 still flying. Honestly these should have been replaced 10 years ago with surplus F-16 or JF-17 or another planes.



I'm sure PAF might look towards acquiring more F-16s.

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## mingle

Incog_nito said:


> I'm sure PAF might look towards acquiring more F-16s.


Mirages are too elderly even get refurbish again.


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## Incog_nito

250 JF-17s
100 F-16s
100 EU Fighters
100 5th Gen

This type of fleet will look best for PAF.

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## mingle

Incog_nito said:


> 250 JF-17s
> 100 F-16s
> 100 EU Fighters
> 100 5th Gen
> This type of fleet will look best for PAF.


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Money is made with money....but it require innovative ideas and out of box thinking which we really lacks.

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## Yasser76

jupiter2007 said:


> Money is made with money....but it require innovative ideas and out of box thinking which we really lacks.



I simply do not understand this statement, it makes no sense. Money is required. "Out of the box thinking" does not get LMTAS paid.....

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## Armchair

jupiter2007 said:


> Money is made with money....but it require innovative ideas and out of box thinking which we really lacks.



This is quite true. Good engineering teams and R&D generate their own keep and then some. This is something that most third worlders will not understand unfortunately.

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## Incog_nito

mingle said:


> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


JF-17s are produced
F-16s are almost 70+ only 30 additional needed.
100 EU fighters - that's a question.
5th Gen are coming.


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## araz

Incog_nito said:


> JF-17s are produced
> F-16s are almost 70+ only 30 additional needed.
> 100 EU fighters - that's a question.
> 5th Gen are coming.


The only thing I will add is that PAF has the capacity to add150 16s. If we can reach that mark, we can coccoon some pgs and M3/5s and retain 50 M3/5s for ground attack/ precision attack. this will give us the 450 fighter force which we need
A

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## Readerdefence

Hi here our memeber should understand one thing about jf17 is engine been purely 
Sorted out by Chinese while taking Russians into frame or I should say keep them in loop 
While keeping them in loop is related with lots of purchases for China from Russian including 
One of the prime thing is su35 and other related items now I’m not saying it’s only beneficial 
For us it more beneficial for Chinese also 
So yea up until now engine is the most core issue even Chinese start churning engines of their own they need lots of them for their own 4-5++ fighters 
Thank you


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## Akh1112

You guys are forgetting that the Block 50/52 are no longer being produced. Either the PAF goes for used airframes or goes for new 72's which is a VERY costly route.

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## Signalian

Reichmarshal said:


> Mirages are and will only be used in ground attack role including CAS.
> They will be a means of the very last resort if they are ever used in the air defence role.......meaning the air war is already lost as we have lost all or most of our air to air warfare platforms.


ROSE-1 are upgraded for air combat not strike.



Incog_nito said:


> 250 JF-17s
> 100 F-16s
> 100 EU Fighters
> 100 5th Gen
> This type of fleet will look best for PAF.


Two major Qs there:

1. why would you need more F-16 ?

2. Mirage replacement could be EU but how will you install Mirage weaponry on a European fighter like Ra'ad, H2 and H4 etc? Will EU come with its full weapon compliment of SOM, ALCM, AShM etc ?



araz said:


> The only thing I will add is that PAF has the capacity to add150 16s. If we can reach that mark, we can coccoon some pgs and M3/5s and retain 50 M3/5s for ground attack/ precision attack. this will give us the 450 fighter force which we need
> A


and the role for F-16s that you have in mind is... ?



Yasser76 said:


> All in all my guess if that once JF-17s/Surplus F-16s replace all the F-7Ps, then PAF will retire air defence Mirages then finally ROSE Strike Mirages. My guess is F-7PG will stay on for another 10-15 years as the airframes are quite new and have been equipped with Grifo, the F-7PG units are stationed at Samunguli and Peshawar by the quiet Iran/Afghan borders. Also handy to have this plane for lead in training and DACM


F-16 will never carry Ra'ad, H2 and H4. The only effective AGM it carries is AGM65. JF-17 has no effective SOW or AGM, only ARM and AShM. 

which aircraft will carry Mirage weaponry effectively ?



Armchair said:


> This is quite true. Good engineering teams and R&D generate their own keep and then some. This is something that most third worlders will not understand unfortunately.


This forum needs to think on different lines every now and then. Its not the aircraft only, but the electronics/weapon package it brings with itself to give results. R&D is a must.



Akh1112 said:


> You guys are forgetting that the Block 50/52 are no longer being produced. Either the PAF goes for used airframes or goes for new 72's which is a VERY costly route.


Get A/B models cheaply and upgrade them to Block 52+ standard but that requires lots of negotiation with USA.

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## araz

Signalian said:


> ROSE-1 are upgraded for air combat not strike.
> 
> 
> Two major Qs there:
> 
> 1. why would you need more F-16 ?
> 
> 2. Mirage replacement could be EU but how will you install Mirage weaponry on a European fighter like Ra'ad, H2 and H4 etc? Will EU come with its full weapon compliment of SOM, ALCM, AShM etc ?
> 
> 
> and the role for F-16s that you have in mind is... ?
> 
> 
> F-16 will never carry Ra'ad, H2 and H4. The only effective AGM it carries is AGM65. JF-17 has no effective SOW or AGM, only ARM and AShM.
> 
> which aircraft will carry Mirage weaponry effectively ?
> 
> 
> This forum needs to think on different lines every now and then. Its not the aircraft only, but the electronics/weapon package it brings with itself to give results. R&D is a must.
> 
> 
> Get A/B models cheaply and upgrade them to Block 52+ standard but that requires lots of negotiation with USA.


The role is as currently in a hi- Lo role(performing this role with the JFTs). The numbers given are simply a reflecton of the capacity which PAF currently has for incorporation of the 16s into its fleet from the infrastructure perspective. I have no doubt the current restrictions will remain and the ability to cross over into enemy terrain will remain the top job of the JFTs. However, 400 BVR equipped fighters will give the enemy a lot to think about. I also do not think this capacity will be fulfilled but it is probably worth a try for PAF to get as close to the number as is possible.
If the war comes, then it may be a case of no holds barred and sanctions or restrictions will not stop PAF doing what they want to do which would be wreaking Havoc.
A

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## jupiter2007

Incog_nito said:


> 250 JF-17s
> 100 F-16s
> *100 EU Fighters*
> *100 5th Gen*
> This type of fleet will look best for PAF.



*Nice Wish list but too far away from the reality.*
_We have 76 F-16s and between 105 to 115. JF-17 in the inventory.
The way things are going, we will still have 20 to 30 J-7P/PG and 35 to 40 Mirage III/V by 2030.
_

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## ziaulislam

jupiter2007 said:


> *Nice Wish list but too far away from the reality.*
> _We have 76 F-16s and between 105 to 115. JF-17 in the inventory.
> The way things are going, we will still have 20 to 30 J-7P/PG and 35 to 40 Mirage III/V by 2030.
> _


F7s will be gone by 2025 but mirages will stick till 2035-40

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## Talon

araz said:


> I have no doubt the current restrictions will remain and the ability to cross over into enemy terrain will remain the top job of the JFTs.
> A


For 1000th time, please stop spreading this narrative.F-16s have no such condition,they can fly wherever PAF wants and they can be posted wherever PAF wants, example being deployment of F-16 units during last year's standoff to different air bases.

This is a misleading information spread by Indians and Pakistanis are falling for it like always.

The only restriction that is confirmed is Chinese are not allowed to come close to F16s on ground.



ziaulislam said:


> F7s will be gone by 2025 but mirages will stick till 2035-40


F-7s will retire only when CCS stops using them.

If Sohail Aman was still chief then you could say F-7s will retire by 2025,no disrespect for the current chief but Sohail Aman had a separate vision.

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## Armchair

Hodor said:


> For 1000th time, please stop spreading this narrative.F-16s have no such condition,they can fly wherever PAF wants and they can be posted wherever PAF wants, example being deployment of F-16 units during last year's standoff to different air bases.
> 
> This is a misleading information spread by Indians and Pakistanis are falling for it like always.
> 
> The only restriction that is confirmed is Chinese are not allowed to come close to F16s on ground.
> 
> 
> F-7s will retire only when CCS stops using them.
> 
> If Sohail Aman was still chief then you could say F-7s will retire by 2025,no disrespect for the current chief but Sohail Aman had a separate vision.



Hodor, would you be able to rank the different platforms in CPFH terms? I'm guessing its (from cheapest to most expensive):

1. F-16
2. JF-17
3. F-7PG
4. Mirage

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## Yasser76

Hodor said:


> For 1000th time, please stop spreading this narrative.F-16s have no such condition,they can fly wherever PAF wants and they can be posted wherever PAF wants, example being deployment of F-16 units during last year's standoff to different air bases.
> 
> This is a misleading information spread by Indians and Pakistanis are falling for it like always.
> 
> The only restriction that is confirmed is Chinese are not allowed to come close to F16s on ground.
> 
> 
> F-7s will retire only when CCS stops using them.
> 
> If Sohail Aman was still chief then you could say F-7s will retire by 2025,no disrespect for the current chief but Sohail Aman had a separate vision.



Seperate vision? Explain? You act as if the PAF was a toy and that one person can be in charge of it and change it's future over a 3 year tenure. Unless you can back up this claim it comes across as vindictive. Like the Army and Navy, Air Chiefs can initiate projects or cancel them but very very rarely can they change the course of the air force. The JF-17 project has been spread over 4-5 Chiefs and probably another 2 more till it is completed. Under current one we have inducted more Erieye and he intiated the latest inductions but last Erieye will be delivered under a seperate Chief so who tales command. Aman was very good at PR and there was always news about new squadrons, equipment inducted, trips abroad etc. Current chief keeps a very low public profile, this does not however mean much is not being done in the background. Only real factor I guess is after ACM Mir every other chief has had a lot of exposure to NATO (Staff College, attachments etc) while Anwar Khan has missed out on this, as he has only done course in Jordan,

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## airomerix

CCS Mirages on the go.

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## Thorough Pro

did we just hit some goldmine or did it rain gold bullions the other day?




Incog_nito said:


> JF-17s are produced
> F-16s are almost 70+ only 30 additional needed.
> 100 EU fighters - that's a question.
> 5th Gen are coming.

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## Talon

airomerix said:


> CCS Mirages on the go.
> 
> View attachment 643945


These are actually Zarrars..

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## Bratva

Hodor said:


> F*or 1000th time, please stop spreading this narrative.F-16s have no such condition,they can fly wherever PAF wants and they can be posted wherever PAF wants, example being deployment of F-16 units during last year's standoff to different air bases.
> 
> This is a misleading information spread by Indians and Pakistanis are falling for it like always.*
> 
> The only restriction that is confirmed is Chinese are not allowed to come close to F16s on ground.
> 
> 
> F-7s will retire only when CCS stops using them.
> 
> If Sohail Aman was still chief then you could say F-7s will retire by 2025,no disrespect for the current chief but Sohail Aman had a separate vision.



Did you happen to read this news? @araz No doubt PAF and Pakistan can do whatever they want with F-16 but there exist agreements which govern the use/movement of F-16's 

*State Department Reprimanded Pakistan for Misusing F-16s, Document Shows*

A TOP AMERICAN DIPLOMAT sent a written reprimand to the chiefs of the Pakistani air force in August accusing them of misusing U.S.-supplied F-16 fighter jets and jeopardizing their shared security, according to documents obtained by U.S. News

Addressed to the head of the Pakistani air force, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, the letter began by relaying the State Department's confirmation that Pakistan had moved the F-16s and accompanying American-made missiles to unapproved forward operating bases in defiance of its agreement with the U.S. Using diplomatic language, Thompson, who has since left government, warned the Pakistanis that their behavior risked allowing these weapons to fall into the hands of malign actors and "could undermine our shared security platforms and infrastructures."

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...n-in-august-for-misusing-f-16s-document-shows

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## Talon

Bratva said:


> Did you happen to read this news? @araz No doubt PAF and Pakistan can do whatever they want with F-16 but there exist agreements which govern the use/movement of F-16's
> 
> *State Department Reprimanded Pakistan for Misusing F-16s, Document Shows*
> 
> A TOP AMERICAN DIPLOMAT sent a written reprimand to the chiefs of the Pakistani air force in August accusing them of misusing U.S.-supplied F-16 fighter jets and jeopardizing their shared security, according to documents obtained by U.S. News
> 
> Addressed to the head of the Pakistani air force, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, the letter began by relaying the State Department's confirmation that Pakistan had moved the F-16s and accompanying American-made missiles to unapproved forward operating bases in defiance of its agreement with the U.S. Using diplomatic language, Thompson, who has since left government, warned the Pakistanis that their behavior risked allowing these weapons to fall into the hands of malign actors and "could undermine our shared security platforms and infrastructures."
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...n-in-august-for-misusing-f-16s-document-shows


I thought terms are always secret of deals with US but even if its true did it have any affect? At the end we are getting more equipment for F-16s.So imho we are cool as long as Chinese dont come close to the F-16.

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## Salman876

Akh1112 said:


> You guys are forgetting that the Block 50/52 are no longer being produced. Either the PAF goes for used airframes or goes for new 72's which is a VERY costly route.


Block 72 is cheapest in it's category, we have all infrastructure to handle F-16s

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## Scorpiooo

Salman876 said:


> Block 72 is cheapest in it's category, we have all infrastructure to handle F-16s


Any info how much it unit cost for F16 70 or 72 in 2020


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## Akh1112

Salman876 said:


> Block 72 is cheapest in it's category, we have all infrastructure to handle F-16s




Sure, theres no denying that.


Scorpiooo said:


> Any info how much it unit cost for F16 70 or 72 in 2020


 Unfortunately not, however from past deals id estimate anywhere from 100m to 125m


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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> Sure, theres no denying that.
> 
> Unfortunately not, however from past deals id estimate anywhere from 100m to 125m


In congress presented cost of F35 was around 85 billion for 2020. Then F16 70/72 will less then this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1X81I5


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> In congress presented cost of F35 was around 85 billion for 2020. Then F16 70/72 will less then this.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1X81I5




Yes but, the F-35 benefits from massive economies of scale. The Block 70/72 viper does not. Hence why its costlier.

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## Salman876

Akh1112 said:


> Yes but, the F-35 benefits from massive economies of scale. The Block 70/72 viper does not. Hence why its costlier.


F16 is also produced in large numbers, it may be cheaper


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## Incog_nito

Is PAF open to accept more Mirage IIIs & Vs from ex-operators? 

Although we have JF-17s and more new stuff coming soon.


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## Akh1112

Salman876 said:


> F16 is also produced in large numbers, it may be cheaper




The Block 72 is not. its very, very different from the 52/og F-16

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF open to accept more Mirage IIIs & Vs from ex-operators for using them as spares and even to upgrade some for the strike roles?

Although we have JF-17s that is will be the backbone of PAF.


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## jupiter2007

Incog_nito said:


> Is PAF open to accept more Mirage IIIs & Vs from ex-operators for using them as spares and even to upgrade some for the strike roles?
> 
> Although we have JF-17s that is will be the backbone of PAF.



aren’t we getting mirage V from Egypt?

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## Scorpiooo

jupiter2007 said:


> aren’t we getting mirage V from Egypt?


Apparently seems to be dead deal, Reason unknown

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## GriffinsRule

There are very few Mirage III/Vs left out in the world that are in any shape worth buying by the PAF. Egypt might be the last potential source as it operated a decent fleet and kept them in service but these would be very old airframes with lots of hours on them.

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## jupiter2007

GriffinsRule said:


> There are very few Mirage III/Vs left out in the world that are in any shape worth buying by the PAF. Egypt might be the last potential source as it operated a decent fleet and kept them in service but these would be very old airframes with lots of hours on them.



We need to focus on JF-17 block3 and AZM project. It's not worth spending resource on old mirage frames...Just keep the one in service for now and replace them with Jf-17 block3.

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## araz

Bratva said:


> Did you happen to read this news? @araz No doubt PAF and Pakistan can do whatever they want with F-16 but there exist agreements which govern the use/movement of F-16's
> 
> *State Department Reprimanded Pakistan for Misusing F-16s, Document Shows*
> 
> A TOP AMERICAN DIPLOMAT sent a written reprimand to the chiefs of the Pakistani air force in August accusing them of misusing U.S.-supplied F-16 fighter jets and jeopardizing their shared security, according to documents obtained by U.S. News
> 
> Addressed to the head of the Pakistani air force, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan, the letter began by relaying the State Department's confirmation that Pakistan had moved the F-16s and accompanying American-made missiles to unapproved forward operating bases in defiance of its agreement with the U.S. Using diplomatic language, Thompson, who has since left government, warned the Pakistanis that their behavior risked allowing these weapons to fall into the hands of malign actors and "could undermine our shared security platforms and infrastructures."
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...n-in-august-for-misusing-f-16s-document-shows


This is just hogwash. Who was this man and what position did he have. Any Tuttoo can write a letter.
A

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## Incog_nito

jupiter2007 said:


> aren’t we getting mirage V from Egypt?



I think this deal can be re-open with some efforts.



GriffinsRule said:


> There are very few Mirage III/Vs left out in the world that are in any shape worth buying by the PAF. Egypt might be the last potential source as it operated a decent fleet and kept them in service but these would be very old airframes with lots of hours on them.



What about Swiss Mirages?



jupiter2007 said:


> We need to focus on JF-17 block3 and AZM project. It's not worth spending resource on old mirage frames...Just keep the one in service for now and replace them with Jf-17 block3.



I think at the current stage we need Mirages for Strike roles as JF-17 is getting ready to become a 4.5 gen aircraft.

PAF has the infrastructure to support Mirage IIIs & Vs - these are a very good platforms for strike roles whether it's within Pakistan to curb terrorism or on the East or West side of Pakistani borders.

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## Dazzler

Horus is here, per a source.

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## mingle

Dazzler said:


> Horus is here, per a source.


So Horus were coming with C130??

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## Dazzler

mingle said:


> So Horus were coming with C130??



Likely

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## Deltadart

Let's hope so.....

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## syed_yusuf

Dazzler said:


> Horus is here, per a source.


Are they in flyable condition or as spares

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## SQ8

syed_yusuf said:


> Are they in flyable condition or as spares


On a airframe by airframe basis - those that can be returned to flying status will be, while others to be cannibalized.

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## araz

SQ8 said:


> On a airframe by airframe basis - those that can be returned to flying status will be, while others to be cannibalized.


Perhaps you might be able to shed some light on the matter. How much of the M3/5 can we rebuild and what bits are we cannibalizing. Help appreciated.
A

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## denel

araz said:


> Perhaps you might be able to shed some light on the matter. How much of the M3/5 can we rebuild and what bits are we cannibalizing. Help appreciated.
> A


The biggest input is how much of the fleet will be undergoing the major refitment which aeromix illuded to. I have not heard anything amongst my former colleagues which is why i am doubting there is anything happening.

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## Incog_nito

I think Mirage-2000s from Qatar and France are getting free and I'm sure if Qatar helps Pakistan then it can be acquired easily.

This will start a new Era of Mirages in PAF.


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## Yasser76

Incog_nito said:


> I think Mirage-2000s from Qatar and France are getting free and I'm sure if Qatar helps Pakistan then it can be acquired easily.
> 
> This will start a new Era of Mirages in PAF.



Even for free no point inducting such limited numbers of a plane IAF knows back to front, and will give us little capability over an MLU/Block 52. Weapons, training, parts, pilots will all cost us resources that can be better deployed elsewhere

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## Incog_nito

Yasser76 said:


> Even for free no point inducting such limited numbers of a plane IAF knows back to front, and will give us little capability over an MLU/Block 52. Weapons, training, parts, pilots will all cost us resources that can be better deployed elsewhere



Nice comment.

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## denel

Incog_nito said:


> I think Mirage-2000s from Qatar and France are getting free and I'm sure if Qatar helps Pakistan then it can be acquired easily.
> 
> This will start a new Era of Mirages in PAF.


Not happening... please do not put this on youtube as a sensational news items.

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## Incog_nito

denel said:


> Not happening... please do not put this on youtube as a sensational news items.


I'm not on YouTube and neither I put forward such things on any online medium.

Thank You.


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## araz

denel said:


> The biggest input is how much of the fleet will be undergoing the major refitment which aeromix illuded to. I have not heard anything amongst my former colleagues which is why i am doubting there is anything happening.


Imeant the body of the M3/5. What can we build and what do we need spares for. Same for engine parts.
A


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## GriffinsRule

araz said:


> Imeant the body of the M3/5. What can we build and what do we need spares for. Same for engine parts.
> A


Simple answer would be no we can not build a frame from scratch nor the engine. Perhaps certain components but that would be it.


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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VEF-ROSE-III/1300

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## BATMAN

Scorpiooo said:


> Apparently seems to be dead deal, Reason unknown



What was the deal?

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> Simple answer would be no we can not build a frame from scratch nor the engine. Perhaps certain components but that would be it.


Any ideas in general what we can rebuilt,/build? It seems to me aluminium parts/airframe should be doable althought the structural steel would have to be imported.
A


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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEA/2802

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## denel

araz said:


> Any ideas in general what we can rebuilt,/build? It seems to me aluminium parts/airframe should be doable althought the structural steel would have to be imported.
> A


PAC imported completed wings from Atlas; i had noted earlier - the structural alloys were with a newer composition that was from the cheetah program. Right now what i see is a hodgepodge mixture of a whole slew of array. In my simple opinion, there needs to be a smaller program to standardise of a set of structural frames from M3/M5. From ourside, the supply of alloy frames is no brainer as there are alum suppliers who smelt and prepare these not only for local use but also supply to Airbus as well as Boeing and other US defence consortiums (but we were still hit with tarriffs under TiT - MAGA program). The newer alloy is more resilient and lighter than the original french equipment.
The hydraulics and other systems on M3/5 are pretty straightfoward. From engine prespective, we had moved to Atar-9K and abandoned the 9C; it was too under powered as the Cheetah airframe had become a bit bulkier. Nevertheless if basic zero hour of the actual airframe can be done, you have a brand new plane; cost for a zero hour core airframe structure is around 900k USD (M3/5 - hybrid) + new wings. If you add it up; it is very insignificant cost to have a brand new plane.

I quote giora epstein who said mirage was his ultimate fighter which talked to him as one.



air marshal said:


> https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VEF-ROSE-III/1300


A great candidate for a long over due structural and systems upgrade.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> PAC imported completed wings from Atlas; i had noted earlier - the structural alloys were with a newer composition that was from the cheetah program. Right now what i see is a hodgepodge mixture of a whole slew of array. In my simple opinion, there needs to be a smaller program to standardise of a set of structural frames from M3/M5. From ourside, the supply of alloy frames is no brainer as there are alum suppliers who smelt and prepare these not only for local use but also supply to Airbus as well as Boeing and other US defence consortiums (but we were still hit with tarriffs under TiT - MAGA program). The newer alloy is more resilient and lighter than the original french equipment.
> The hydraulics and other systems on M3/5 are pretty straightfoward. From engine prespective, we had moved to Atar-9K and abandoned the 9C; it was too under powered as the Cheetah airframe had become a bit bulkier. Nevertheless if basic zero hour of the actual airframe can be done, you have a brand new plane; cost for a zero hour core airframe structure is around 900k USD (M3/5 - hybrid) + new wings. If you add it up; it is very insignificant cost to have a brand new plane.
> 
> I quote giora epstein who said mirage was his ultimate fighter which talked to him as one.
> 
> 
> A great candidate for a long over due structural and systems upgrade.


 Not happening. The wise ones at PAF don't want to follow through with the mirage upgrade/remake like you suggested here, even if is very cost effective.


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## TOPGUN

air marshal said:


> https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEA/2802



I take that's karachi in the background ?

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEP/2799

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## CHI RULES

If Pakistan getting Mirage Horus then any upgrade is possible. May be Pakistan should arm it's Mirages with a decent Radar and AAMs to make it a true multi role fighter bomber as the are looking to remain there till 2030.


----------



## mingle

denel said:


> PAC imported completed wings from Atlas; i had noted earlier - the structural alloys were with a newer composition that was from the cheetah program. Right now what i see is a hodgepodge mixture of a whole slew of array. In my simple opinion, there needs to be a smaller program to standardise of a set of structural frames from M3/M5. From ourside, the supply of alloy frames is no brainer as there are alum suppliers who smelt and prepare these not only for local use but also supply to Airbus as well as Boeing and other US defence consortiums (but we were still hit with tarriffs under TiT - MAGA program). The newer alloy is more resilient and lighter than the original french equipment.
> The hydraulics and other systems on M3/5 are pretty straightfoward. From engine prespective, we had moved to Atar-9K and abandoned the 9C; it was too under powered as the Cheetah airframe had become a bit bulkier. Nevertheless if basic zero hour of the actual airframe can be done, you have a brand new plane; cost for a zero hour core airframe structure is around 900k USD (M3/5 - hybrid) + new wings. If you add it up; it is very insignificant cost to have a brand new plane.
> 
> I quote giora epstein who said mirage was his ultimate fighter which talked to him as one.
> 
> 
> A great candidate for a long over due structural and systems upgrade.


Atleast front canopy should be whole glass


----------



## air marshal

TOPGUN said:


> I take that's karachi in the background ?


Yes!

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## Readerdefence

air marshal said:


> https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEA/2802


Hi any idea about the IFR what kind of mirage is it carrying I mean m3/ or M/5 
& is PAF using IFR on both the categories 
If possible to answer 
Thank you


----------



## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi any idea about the IFR what kind of mirage is it carrying I mean m3/ or M/5
> & is PAF using IFR on both the categories
> If possible to answer
> Thank you


Both can be fitted. Originally IFRs were designed for Cheetahs; Pak then procured it for their M3/5's plus the refueling system. JF17 probes are same as well.

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## Basel

mingle said:


> So Horus were coming with C130??



Good, more BVR capable platform for PAF in hostile times.



CHI RULES said:


> If Pakistan getting Mirage Horus then any upgrade is possible. May be Pakistan should arm it's Mirages with a decent Radar and AAMs to make it a true multi role fighter bomber as the are looking to remain there till 2030.



Those birds have BVR capable radar, which means PAF have to integrate BVR to make them lethal.

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## Dazzler

CHI RULES said:


> If Pakistan getting Mirage Horus then any upgrade is possible. May be Pakistan should arm it's Mirages with a decent Radar and AAMs to make it a true multi role fighter bomber as the are looking to remain there till 2030.



Grifo M3 (Rose1) is an APG-68 class radar. A decent radar offering bvr and SAR capability.



Basel said:


> Good, more BVR capable platform for PAF in hostile times.
> 
> 
> 
> Those birds have BVR capable radar, which means PAF have to integrate BVR to make them lethal.



Some sources including SIPRI claim that they can launch sd-10 mraam.

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## Bossman

denel said:


> Both can be fitted. Originally IFRs were designed for Cheetahs; Pak then procured it for their M3/5's plus the refueling system. JF17 probes are same as well.


South African IFRs were tested on JF17 but were not adopted.

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## Basel

Dazzler said:


> Grifo M3 (Rose1) is an APG-68 class radar. A decent radar offering bvr and SAR capability.
> 
> 
> 
> Some sources including SIPRI claim that they can launch sd-10 mraam.



How?? Horus have European PD radar which once was sorted for JFT block-1.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VEF/1905

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Mirage are our most cost effective,reliable and effective BOMB TRUCKS. We as a nation never had any complaints from these beauties, always made us proud.




*




*



*

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## CHI RULES

Dazzler said:


> Grifo M3 (Rose1) is an APG-68 class radar. A decent radar offering bvr and SAR capability.
> 
> 
> 
> Some sources including SIPRI claim that they can launch sd-10 mraam.



Sir for knowledge sake Grifo M3 has perhaps A2A max range of 75-80 KM, however there are many Mirages as per available data who are even without any radar. Meanwhile India has upgraded it's Jaguar with AESA radar and other modern gadgets. Pakistan either should convert the Mirages in to true multi role jets or go for replacements ( rumors are there for some Chinese Jet variants).



Basel said:


> How?? Horus have European PD radar which once was sorted for JFT block-1.



What's your guess Horus coming or not, much depends on Horus deal.

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## aliyusuf

CHI RULES said:


> Meanwhile India has upgraded it's Jaguar with AESA radar and other modern gadgets.


Last time I checked they had tested Elta EL/M-2052 AESA on 6 Jaguars and found that there are issues with it's proper functionaing with the current engines on the Jaguars. This problem was further compounded with the engine-upgrade deal that was to come with latest DARIN upgrade hitting snags due to pricing with UK and was cancelled eventually. So it is more likely that the IAF Jags are not equipped with AESA.

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## mshan44



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## Ahmet Pasha

All true. But 10 years from now they're gonna be flying museums.


FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Mirage are our most cost effective,reliable and effective BOMB TRUCKS. We as a nation never had any complaints from these beauties, always made us proud.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *

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## Yasser76

CHI RULES said:


> Sir for knowledge sake Grifo M3 has perhaps A2A max range of 75-80 KM, however there are many Mirages as per available data who are even without any radar. Meanwhile India has upgraded it's Jaguar with AESA radar and other modern gadgets. Pakistan either should convert the Mirages in to true multi role jets or go for replacements ( rumors are there for some Chinese Jet variants).
> 
> 
> 
> What's your guess Horus coming or not, much depends on Horus deal.




Get facts right, no AESA radar on Indian Jaguars, and without new engines they are very underpowered in hot weather

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## GriffinsRule

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Mirage are our most cost effective,reliable and effective BOMB TRUCKS. We as a nation never had any complaints from these beauties, always made us proud.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


You know that is a Mirage 2000 in the 2nd picture right?


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## CHI RULES

Yasser76 said:


> Get facts right, no AESA radar on Indian Jaguars, and without new engines they are very under powered in hot weather



Sir Sorry may be you are a fighter pilot or expert aviator like many here but I found at many places that radar is AESA and despite being under powered after upgrades the Jet is much lethal with multi role capabilities, do you honestly think our Mirages are at that standard. We should remain stuck with these old birds which may result in loss of many precious pilots if are entered in any near future clash with India.

On other hand India also has some thinking even for changing engines of these jets.

Links are given below mentioning AESA radar under Darin III upgrade.
https://www.financialexpress.com/de...ionics-jaguar-still-lacks-the-thrust/1721036/
http://www.indiastrategic.in/2017/08/11/hal-upgrades-jaguar-aircraft-with-powerful-aesa-radar/


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## Shabi1

CHI RULES said:


> Sir for knowledge sake Grifo M3 has perhaps A2A max range of 75-80 KM, however there are many Mirages as per available data who are even without any radar. Meanwhile India has upgraded it's Jaguar with AESA radar and other modern gadgets. Pakistan either should convert the Mirages in to true multi role jets or go for replacements ( rumors are there for some Chinese Jet variants).
> 
> 
> 
> What's your guess Horus coming or not, much depends on Horus deal.


If you look at airforces some have a old yet easy to maintain, upgraded jet doing bomb truck duties with modern munitions. Turks have the F-4 Terminator, US has the A-10 and B-52, British have the Tornado etc. For us it's the Mirage and its ability to deliver SOW. These Mirages have stable handling at low altitudes so they will soldier on till we get Azm ready or as long as we have weapons in inventory that can be delivered by Mirage only. However they will fly with other platforms as they cant defend themselves against new modern threats.

Someone quoted on this forum that PAF is going for avionic suite upgrade on our Mirages and both Denel and Chengdu gave proposals after which Denel selected.

Don't need a powerful radar on these Mirages, just need a decent datalink, reliable navigation and accurate weapon delivery systems. Lets wait and see.

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## Yasser76

CHI RULES said:


> Sir Sorry may be you are a fighter pilot or expert aviator like many here but I found at many places that radar is AESA and despite being under powered after upgrades the Jet is much lethal with multi role capabilities, do you honestly think our Mirages are at that standard. We should remain stuck with these old birds which may result in loss of many precious pilots if are entered in any near future clash with India.
> 
> On other hand India also has some thinking even for changing engines of these jets.
> 
> Links are given below mentioning AESA radar under Darin III upgrade.
> https://www.financialexpress.com/de...ionics-jaguar-still-lacks-the-thrust/1721036/
> http://www.indiastrategic.in/2017/08/11/hal-upgrades-jaguar-aircraft-with-powerful-aesa-radar/



Not fighter pilot or expert just have ability to use Google, your links are old, this is info from last year

"With HAL struggling to integrate new radar on the jets, there has yet to be handover of a Final Operational Clearance (FOC) unit."

https://dsm.forecastinternational.c...dian-air-force-freezes-jaguar-engine-upgrade/


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## CHI RULES

Shabi1 said:


> If you look at airforces some have a old yet easy to maintain, upgraded jet doing bomb truck duties with modern munitions. Turks have the F-4 Terminator, US has the A-10 and B-52, British have the Tornado etc. For us it's the Mirage and its ability to deliver SOW. These Mirages have stable handling at low altitudes so they will soldier on till we get Azm ready or as long as we have weapons in inventory that can be delivered by Mirage only. However they will fly with other platforms as they cant defend themselves against new modern threats.
> 
> Someone quoted on this forum that PAF is going for avionic suite upgrade on our Mirages and both Denel and Chengdu gave proposals after which Denel selected.
> 
> Don't need a powerful radar on these Mirages, just need a decent datalink, reliable navigation and accurate weapon delivery systems. Lets wait and see.


Sir our planning may be right for few skirmishes but in all out war you shall require more jets for A2A engagements, PAF has limited resources so jets should have multi role capabilities. PAF considering threat level and ground realities can't be compared with Turks, US or Brits.
Further PAF has about 180 Mirages and they all are certainly not in use as bombers only they are there for multi roles so they should have decent defensive and offensive capabilities to counter emerging threats.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

GriffinsRule said:


> You know that is a Mirage 2000 in the 2nd picture right?


*Corrected thanks.*


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## The Accountant

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Mirage are our most cost effective,reliable and effective BOMB TRUCKS. We as a nation never had any complaints from these beauties, always made us proud.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *



With only 5 hard points, calling them bomb truck is not justified.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

The Accountant said:


> With only 5 hard points, calling them bomb truck is not justified.


*Are you sure my friend!




 https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=318417512212028




Nearly similar disposition of Hijara bombs below apart from the side winders on the sides.(Picture is of FAF)*

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## Shabi1

CHI RULES said:


> Sir our planning may be right for few skirmishes but in all out war you shall require more jets for A2A engagements, PAF has limited resources so jets should have multi role capabilities. PAF considering threat level and ground realities can't be compared with Turks, US or Brits.
> Further PAF has about 180 Mirages and they all are certainly not in use as bombers only they are there for multi roles so they should have decent defensive and offensive capabilities to counter emerging threats.



PAF will replace these as options open up. But only a few will be updated and kept flying as specialists.

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## The Accountant

A


FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Are you sure my friend!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=318417512212028
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly similar disposition of Hijara bombs below apart from the side winders on the sides.(Picture is of FAF)*



I am not sure which bombs / missiles they are ? if they are general purpose dumb bombs then they are of much less utility. However, if they are smart bombs then mirrage can be categorised as a good bomber but still not bmb truck as these are small bombs and weight carrying capacity of mirrage is still much lower than heavy fighters like su30 or F15

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## CHI RULES

Yasser76 said:


> Not fighter pilot or expert just have ability to use Google, your links are old, this is info from last year
> 
> "With HAL struggling to integrate new radar on the jets, there has yet to be handover of a Final Operational Clearance (FOC) unit."
> 
> https://dsm.forecastinternational.c...dian-air-force-freezes-jaguar-engine-upgrade/



Sir please send any link showing that India is struggling to integrate AESA Elta 2052 radar on Jaguars under Darin-III.


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## Clairvoyant

The Accountant said:


> A
> 
> 
> I am not sure which bombs / missiles they are ? if they are general purpose dumb bombs then they are of much less utility. However, if they are smart bombs then mirrage can be categorised as a good bomber but still not bmb truck as these are small bombs and weight carrying capacity of mirrage is still much lower than heavy fighters like su30 or F15




These are Mk.20 cluster bombs,this is a very atypical bomb load and not carried on most missions.


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## denel

Bossman said:


> South African IFRs were tested on JF17 but were not adopted.


then explain to me


Basel said:


> Good, more BVR capable platform for PAF in hostile times.
> 
> 
> 
> Those birds have BVR capable radar, which means PAF have to integrate BVR to make them lethal.


I would not count chicks before they hatch; knowing EAF very well and their ability to keep anything working - most would be near state of mothballing. That is if only they are brought over.

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## Deltadart

Anymore news on the new avionics package for the mirages and how many units will be involved?


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## litman

The Accountant said:


> A
> 
> 
> I am not sure which bombs / missiles they are ? if they are general purpose dumb bombs then they are of much less utility. However, if they are smart bombs then mirrage can be categorised as a good bomber but still not bmb truck as these are small bombs and weight carrying capacity of mirrage is still much lower than heavy fighters like su30 or F15


but we also need to look at our funds . we have to be contend with what we can afford. we cant afford F-15 or su 30. the mirage as shown in the pic will be used to wreak havoc with the indian army columns . for precision strikes these mirages will carry H2, H4 and RAAD cruise missile. only mirage can carry these weapons. JFT has partially replaced mirages in air to see role but still it cant fully replace mirages in air to ground role. F-16 can carry more payload then mirages and also some guided missiles and bombs like the AGM 65, AS 30 and JDAMs but in a full scale war PAF will not use that precious asset in air to ground role. they will be carrying out the air defence duties. in a future air war the toughest and the most risky job will be that of mirage pilots.

and i also forgot to mention MAR 1 anti radiation missile which i think only mirage and JFT can carry.

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## The Accountant

litman said:


> but we also need to look at our funds . we have to be content with what we can afford. we cant afford F-15 or su 30. the mirage as shown in the pic will be used to wreak havoc with the indian army columns . for precision strikes these mirages will carry H2, H4 and RAAD cruise missile. only mirage can carry these weapons. JFT has partially replaced mirages in air to see role but still it cant fully replace mirages in air to ground role. F-16 can carry more payload then mirages and also some guided missiles and bombs like the AGM 65, AS 30 and JDAMs but in a full scale war PAF will not use that precious asset in air to ground role. they will be carrying out the air defence duties. in a future air war the toughest and the most risky job will be that of mirage pilots.
> 
> and i also forgot to mention MAR 1 anti radiation missile which i think only mirage and JFT can carry.


I dont disagree that mirage have a key strike role with PAF but still do remember that this is work around and not an ideal solution.

Furthermore, they are risk to much precious life of pilot.

Lets end of discussion here.


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## syed_yusuf

Rb199 are available on eBay for 92k USD. An ideal replacement for atar 9c . There are total of 2000+ made over 80s and 90s. And the beauty is it can fit in mirage of paf. Something to ponder on and consider. Rb199 is a good engine with quality after burner. This solves higher thrust issue and been turbofan it provides better fuel consumption.

Hence better range and reliability

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## Yasser76

CHI RULES said:


> Sir please send any link showing that India is struggling to integrate AESA Elta 2052 radar on Jaguars under Darin-III.



Can you read? The link and quote I have given. You would gain much more respect and greater self confidence if you just admit you were wrong


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## ARMalik

Apparently, Mirage Horus from Egypt are here. But obviously this needs confirmation.

Some of the existing Mirages with PAF have Link-17, which means they also form part of the Netcentric , and can be easily directed/controlled by AWACS, Satellites, and other Ground based stations to fire missiles including long range missiles.

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## denel

syed_yusuf said:


> Rb199 are available on eBay for 92k USD. An ideal replacement for atar 9c . There are total of 2000+ made over 80s and 90s. And the beauty is it can fit in mirage of paf. Something to ponder on and consider. Rb199 is a good engine with quality after burner. This solves higher thrust issue and been turbofan it provides better fuel consumption.
> 
> Hence better range and reliability


Your idea is good - this was suggested to let a small POC to be done by some students. The problem is i believe lack of foresight and willingness unless someone higher up agrees from PAF. This is where I had argued there needs to be a complete independence of PAC from PAF - not a single personel must be there. Let the designers, engineers and project managers do their magic. Everything is unfortunately an after thought vs proactiveness.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Your idea is good - this was suggested to let a small POC to be done by some students. The problem is i believe lack of foresight and willingness unless someone higher up agrees from PAF. This is where I had argued there needs to be a complete independence of PAC from PAF - not a single personel must be there. Let the designers, engineers and project managers do their magic. Everything is unfortunately an after thought vs proactiveness.



Your analysis as always is right on target. I believe PAF feels it is stuck with mirages for a lack of better choices, thus no desire to make them cutting edge.


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## syed_yusuf

Deltadart said:


> Your analysis as always is right on target. I believe PAF feels it is stuck with mirages for a lack of better choices, thus no desire to make them cutting edge.


adding better engine and mid tech avionics will keep them relevant not cutting edge.


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## CHI RULES

Yasser76 said:


> Can you read? The link and quote I have given. You would gain much more respect and greater self confidence if you just admit you were wrong


*Indian Air Force Freezes Jaguar Engine Upgrade*
August 22, 2019 - by Daniel Darling


*With upgraded avionics, Jaguar still lacks the thrust*
By: Huma Siddiqui | 
Published: September 29, 2019 3:51 PM

If you are not going to be annoyed, please consider dates of articles. Further Indians are reporting that Darin III is implemented now. I don't know whether they are lying or not. My link is more latest than yours that was the point. I knew engine issues of Jaguar but still Darin III is providing multi role capabilities and my point is our Mirages if have to remain there then should have similar multi role capabilities, no point to annoy you, I have shortage of time so just skim through most of the stuff. 
May be you should admit that it is no where mentioned clearly that AESA radar is abandoned like new engine which is clearly left for time being.
I am here as a student but can't believe every thing blindly.


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## Yasser76

CHI RULES said:


> *Indian Air Force Freezes Jaguar Engine Upgrade*
> August 22, 2019 - by Daniel Darling
> 
> 
> *With upgraded avionics, Jaguar still lacks the thrust*
> By: Huma Siddiqui |
> Published: September 29, 2019 3:51 PM
> 
> If you are not going to be annoyed, please consider dates of articles. Further Indians are reporting that Darin III is implemented now. I don't know whether they are lying or not. My link is more latest than yours that was the point. I knew engine issues of Jaguar but still Darin III is providing multi role capabilities and my point is our Mirages if have to remain there then should have similar multi role capabilities, no point to annoy you, I have shortage of time so just skim through most of the stuff.
> May be you should admit that it is no where mentioned clearly that AESA radar is abandoned like new engine which is clearly left for time being.
> I am here as a student but can't believe every thing blindly.



The link you gives also states only 6 prototypes delivered and upgrade is stalled. In trying to prove me wrong you have proved yourself wrong. You made sweeping statement about IAF Jaguars having AESA and now you realise you cannot back it up. If you had any integrity you would admit you were wrong, but part of problem in our culture is that people do not want to lose "face".

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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> The link you gives also states only 6 prototypes delivered and upgrade is stalled. In trying to prove me wrong you have proved yourself wrong. You made sweeping statement about IAF Jaguars having AESA and now you realise you cannot back it up. If you had any integrity you would admit you were wrong, but part of problem in our culture is that people do not want to lose "face".


Everyone knows jauguar upgrade project was abandoned due to lack of engine availability

The total cost for engines upgarde was at 2.5b$
That is amount in which PAF can get 100 new jf17

Now add rest of package cost to darin 3..simply unacceptable

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## Bossman

denel said:


> Your idea is good - this was suggested to let a small POC to be done by some students. The problem is i believe lack of foresight and willingness unless someone higher up agrees from PAF. This is where I had argued there needs to be a complete independence of PAC from PAF - not a single personel must be there. Let the designers, engineers and project managers do their magic. Everything is unfortunately an after thought vs proactiveness.


Check the list of papers published by NUST including those on aviation. Available on NUST’s website. PIEAS is even more impressive but more theoretical not focused on aeronautics.


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## ziaulislam

Mirages should be phased out by 2025-2030. Apart from may be an avionics upgarde anything esle will be cost prohibitive.
Better spend that money else where in jf17& azm. 
Jf17 can be optimized for strike role(may be researching better weapons, multiple racks, CFTs and SOW)
if PAF wants to keep mirages beyond 2040 (which i dont know how, as unlike jauguars we dont make any parts for mirages) than ofcourse zero airframe and an rd 93 engine upgrade can be considered

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## CHI RULES

Yasser76 said:


> The link you gives also states only 6 prototypes delivered and upgrade is stalled. In trying to prove me wrong you have proved yourself wrong. You made sweeping statement about IAF Jaguars having AESA and now you realise you cannot back it up. If you had any integrity you would admit you were wrong, but part of problem in our culture is that people do not want to lose "face".


You have won the prize and I shall not believe what ever Indian's say. Now be happy and end of discussion.


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## ziaulislam

By 2030 a 150 more jf17s can easily be built to replace all mirages.
May be get 1-2 squardons of f16s and 1-2 squardons of j10s to supplement that.

Now ofcourse if french are ready to do a similar work around with mirage2000 than sure but i highly doubt it


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## CHI RULES

CHI RULES said:


> You have won the prize and I shall not believe what ever Indian's say. Now be happy and end of discussion.


Further in my quoted article it is addressed as delayed not stalled.


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## Yasser76

CHI RULES said:


> You have won the prize and I shall not believe what ever Indian's say. Now be happy and end of discussion.



No need for drama or acting like a martyr. Just research before making sweeping statements. One just needs to look at IAF Jaguars to see that they remain un upgraded. HAL is doing no work on the Jaguar fleet at all.

In a seperate note IAF is losing approx 2 Jaguars every year to accidents. 12 lost in last 6 years.


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## denel

Bossman said:


> Check the list of papers published by NUST including those on aviation. Available on NUST’s website. PIEAS is even more impressive but more theoretical not focused on aeronautics.


Thanks, i am aware of these sites. already working with one key researcher.

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## Dazzler

In the meantime...

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## CHI RULES

Yasser76 said:


> No need for drama or acting like a martyr. Just research before making sweeping statements. One just needs to look at IAF Jaguars to see that they remain un upgraded. HAL is doing no work on the Jaguar fleet at all.
> 
> In a seperate note IAF is losing approx 2 Jaguars every year to accidents. 12 lost in last 6 years.



Cheers man no hard feelings but just wanted to get some clearance regarding Darin-III not particularly related to your posts. If you get any further info please do share.

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## Nomad40

Dazzler said:


> In the meantime...


I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL BUY ONE...........I just dont have the money

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## Talon



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## araz

Hodor said:


> View attachment 649253


Anything special about this photo. My eyes are not what they used to be. It is painted for Naval role but does not have the FLIR. anyother aspect that should be concentrated on? Help appreciated in advance.
A


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## Ahmet Pasha

Any word on Egyptian Mirages??


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## Talon

araz said:


> Anything special about this photo. My eyes are not what they used to be. It is painted for Naval role but does not have the FLIR. anyother aspect that should be concentrated on? Help appreciated in advance.
> A


Nothing special just a random picture.
Blue colour is to help blend in the sky so is the camo to blend with the terrain,you will find it on all Mirages except the gray ones,naval or not.

FLIR is not operational on Mirages anymore..I think.

Take off is from skardu



Ahmet Pasha said:


> Any word on Egyptian Mirages??


Aisi baaten nahi krty

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## CHI RULES

Hodor said:


> Nothing special just a random picture.
> Blue colour is to help blend in the sky so is the camo to blend with the terrain,you will find it on all Mirages except the gray ones,naval or not.
> 
> FLIR is not operational on Mirages anymore..I think.
> 
> Take off is from skardu
> 
> 
> Aisi baaten nahi krty



Kabhi kabhi kar lia karen hazmey key lie achi hoti hain

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## Incog_nito

Can PAC work with Turkey in converting Mirage IIIs and Vs into UCAVs?

Like, the space that is occupied by the Pilot and the pilot support systems will be converted for Fuel and 5 External stores will be available for Strike Weapons. In-flight refueling will be added, to support for long-endurance missions.

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## Armchair

Why not build a new dedicated Mirage replacement. Use a Skunk works like process - where the cobbled together the F-117 from parts of various other aircraft. 

A stealthy, low level strike aircraft. After watching this video, I believe it is perfectly possible with the right project management decisions:

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## Nomad40

Armchair said:


> Why not build a new dedicated Mirage replacement. Use a Skunk works like process - where the cobbled together the F-117 from parts of various other aircraft.
> 
> A stealthy, low level strike aircraft. After watching this video, I believe it is perfectly possible with the right project management decisions:


You have to understand Industry dynamics, Dedication of the PAF to do something like that there is thought process and motivation behind every move..........Why spend million on R&D when there are proven platform available to purchase. PAF's new strike speaking from historical POV will be the JF-17 in the next 10 years or until Mirages have been retired I dont care if anybody like it or not this is a fact Mirages are around for a decade more and major offensive capabilities have been built around the Mirage. The evidence is 27-02-2019 and bulk of our aerial manufacturing. What the Mirage can do the JF-17 can but there are 4 Design advantages to the mirage.

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL BUY ONE...........I just dont have the money


Where you will park him?

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## baqai

mingle said:


> Where you will park him?



i can offer my place, willing to demolish few rooms as well, provided i get to go on a ride every now and than

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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> Where you will park him?


London or Hamilton.

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> London or Hamilton.


Beside Drake plane???


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## Talon

CHI RULES said:


> Kabhi kabhi kar lia karen hazmey key lie achi hoti hain


Sir jee kar di thi baat mene to es topic pe,jisne yaqeen krna kre jisne nahi krna wo na kre sbki apni merzi meri baat harf e akhir thori na hai...!!!

Imo its useless to discuss same topic again and again whose faith is unknown.

Please do not quote my Indus viper post here

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> Sir jee kar di thi baat mene to es topic pe,jisne yaqeen krna kre jisne nahi krna wo na kre sbki apni merzi meri baat harf e akhir thori na hai...!!!
> 
> Imo its useless to discuss same topic again and again whose faith is unknown.
> 
> Please do not quote my Indus viper post here


Jiger when to expect news about vipers?? US even selling equipment to Argentina


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## Akh1112

mingle said:


> Jiger when to expect news about vipers?? US even selling equipment to Argentina




i have contacted Lockheed Martin's PR dept to see if there is even a morsel of evidence that points towards a new batch of vipers/upgrades


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> Beside Drake plane???


nah besides the Lancaster. or lease it to ITPS let them take care of it I fly it on the week ends.

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## mingle

Akh1112 said:


> i have contacted Lockheed Martin's PR dept to see if there is even a morsel of evidence that points towards a new batch of vipers/upgrades


You taking to next level what they said?? Probably No


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## Armchair

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> What the Mirage can do the JF-17 can



A dedicated JF-17 can do what a Mirage can do (more or less). However, the threat scenarios have changed. You'll be flying into S-400s and all kinds of other gizmos. Maybe in the future into PAC-3 batteries. So, one has to do a bit better than before. 

Here is one way I can think of, where we can do a bit better. Use the RD-93 and other subsystems (like landing gear, cockpit avionics, fuel system) of the JF-17. Build a new airframe Skunk Works style. Build a basic hybrid of the F-117 and Mirage. Replicate the FCS of the JF-17. 

Viola, you have a stealth strike aircraft. The F-117 was the lowest cost stealth aircraft and relatively easy to maintain, as the skin was not as maintenance intensive as on other later fighters.


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## nomi007



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## Bratva

Hodor said:


> Sir jee kar di thi baat mene to es topic pe,jisne yaqeen krna kre jisne nahi krna wo na kre sbki apni merzi meri baat harf e akhir thori na hai...!!!
> 
> Imo its useless to discuss same topic again and again whose faith is unknown.
> 
> Please do not quote my Indus viper post here


 
Egyptian C-130's were in Pakistan today.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281928814872887297

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## The Eagle

Bratva said:


> Egyptian C-130's were in Pakistan today.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281928814872887297



Another one was here before as well. That was a lovely sight.

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## Viper27

The Eagle said:


> Another one was here before as well. That was a lovely sight.



He's saying in response to a query that the C-130s were not carrying Horus parts today. Then what were they here for?


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## The Eagle

Viper27 said:


> He's saying in response to a query that the C-130s were not carrying Horus parts today. Then what were they here for?



Nobody knows anything. If these C-130s aren't delivering then must be for pickup or otherwise, I don't see any reason for a mid stop as where would be they flying? Just guessing as EAF's C-130s were here before as well... days ago.

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## Viper27

The Eagle said:


> Nobody knows anything. If these C-130s aren't delivering then must be for pickup or otherwise, I don't see any reason for a mid stop as where would be they flying? Just guessing as EAF's C-130s were here before as well... days ago.



The previous trips were pretty much confirmed deliveries of Horus and I'm quite sure these two must be for the same purpose but this guy Rana Suhaib who generally has access to bases is saying today's flights weren't for delivering Horus. Just confusing.

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## The Eagle

Viper27 said:


> The previous trips were pretty much confirmed deliveries of Horus and I'm quite sure these two must be for the same purpose but this guy Rana Suhaib who generally has access to bases is saying today's flights weren't for delivering Horus. Just confusing.



Sir, I don't see anyone disclosing such information to someone outside the Base while officials are tight lip and not saying a single word. I am not saying that he is lying but the thing is; anyone can tip-off with any sort of information either to manipulate or let the rumors run high but no one can confirm for sure unless there are three or 4 or more sources. In the end, we will be guessing on the basis of possibilities and why EAF's C-130s are flying in-out of Nur Khan in matter of weeks. I think there was possibility of selling trainers to EAF but then again, nothing concrete at the moment. Most probable guess could something to do with Mirages or in the end, Medical Supplies. While I type Medical Supplies, I just realized that how much of those supplies will need 5 trips.

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## The Raven

I can't see the PAF acquiring ex-Egyptian Mirages for the purposes of service in the PAF. For one thing, the Horus would have to be modified to use PAF weapons, such as H2/H4 and the Raad, as well as other avionics and equipment to integrate them into our Comms and datalinks, which would be timely and costly. Secondly, the PAF Mirages are meant to be gradually being replaced with the JF-17. The only reason the PAF would be interested in Egyptian Mirages is maybe to acquire a few airframes to canabalise for spare parts to keep existing PAF Mirages flightworthy until they are phased out. That may be particularly the case if there's any delay in the production of Block-3 JF-17. In addition, if the PAF acquired complete Horus airframes in large numbers for the purposes of service, they'd probably be transported by ship rather Hercules, as otherwise it would take way too long.

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## Nomad40

OKAY 


Armchair said:


> A dedicated JF-17 can do what a Mirage can do (more or less). However, the threat scenarios have changed. You'll be flying into S-400s and all kinds of other gizmos. Maybe in the future into PAC-3 batteries. So, one has to do a bit better than before.
> 
> Here is one way I can think of, where we can do a bit better. Use the RD-93 and other subsystems (like landing gear, cockpit avionics, fuel system) of the JF-17. Build a new airframe Skunk Works style. Build a basic hybrid of the F-117 and Mirage. Replicate the FCS of the JF-17.
> 
> Viola, you have a stealth strike aircraft. The F-117 was the lowest cost stealth aircraft and relatively easy to maintain, as the skin was not as maintenance intensive as on other later fighters.



Write me a nice beefy check I will make it.

Why are all of you hyped for Mirages that cant even FLY--------Spares you all SPARES.

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## CHI RULES

The Raven said:


> I can't see the PAF acquiring ex-Egyptian Mirages for the purposes of service in the PAF. For one thing, the Horus would have to be modified to use PAF weapons, such as H2/H4 and the Raad, as well as other avionics and equipment to integrate them into our Comms and datalinks, which would be timely and costly. Secondly, the PAF Mirages are meant to be gradually being replaced with the JF-17. The only reason the PAF would be interested in Egyptian Mirages is maybe to acquire a few airframes to canabalise for spare parts to keep existing PAF Mirages flightworthy until they are phased out. That may be particularly the case if there's any delay in the production of Block-3 JF-17. In addition, if the PAF acquired complete Horus airframes in large numbers for the purposes of service, they'd probably be transported by ship rather Hercules, as otherwise it would take way too long.



Respected member as stated here and there the Horus have sufficient life left in them, so as PAF is going for may be 30+ jets. It should be expected that at least one squadron of 18-20 after some modifications shall be inducted directly i.e to replace existing Mirages, meanwhile the remaining jets shall be cannibalized to further upgrade the existing Mirages. The expected out come is may be two squadrons of Mirages with upgraded multi role capabilities. The gadgets available in Horus are described to be much latest from Radar to other capabilities. The inducted/upgraded Mirages can have true BVR capability along with defensive capabilities.
I have pointed out many times that if Mirages have to remain here for long time then they should have true multi role capabilities. The other jets escorting them for bombing missions shall not be a viable option in future expected war. They shall have to survive themselves during such missions by countering both air and ground challenges.



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> OKAY
> 
> 
> Write me a nice beefy check I will make it.
> 
> Why are all of you hyped for Mirages that cant even FLY--------Spares you all SPARES.


If PAF is making efforts to get Horus then they certainly have enough advanced capabilities as it is obvious that they may have been inspected thoroughly by PAF. On other side it is my guess that deal if finalized may involve a higher price tag as compared to past Mirages which were cheaply purchased. Please do consider the secrecy scenario about the deal/delivery. No official wording yet.

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## fatman17

Cannot do much more than existing upgrades.


CHI RULES said:


> Respected member as stated here and there the Horus have sufficient life left in them, so as PAF is going for may be 30+ jets. It should be expected that at least one squadron of 18-20 after some modifications shall be inducted directly i.e to replace existing Mirages, meanwhile the remaining jets shall be cannibalized to further upgrade the existing Mirages. The expected out come is may be two squadrons of Mirages with upgraded multi role capabilities. The gadgets available in Horus are described to be much latest from Radar to other capabilities. The inducted/upgraded Mirages can have true BVR capability along with defensive capabilities.
> I have pointed out many times that if Mirages have to remain here for long time then they should have true multi role capabilities. The other jets escorting them for bombing missions shall not be a viable option in future expected war. They shall have to survive themselves during such missions by countering both air and ground challenges.

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## Armchair

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> OKAY
> 
> 
> Write me a nice beefy check I will make it.
> 
> Why are all of you hyped for Mirages that cant even FLY--------Spares you all SPARES.



Ah, but we don't want a one man development show - we want a Pakistani "Skunk works" to take up such a project. Like the AVM Latif type team. Using spare parts and keeping it simple, I believe they can build an aircraft that will be a baby between the JF-17, Mirage and F-117. Internal bay for 2 1000 lb laser guided bombs... and there you have it. (or so I would argue).


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## nomi007

Two Egyptian C130 Spotted in a single Day
REG: SU-BAR(1285)
REG: SU-BAS(1286)






Any Link with Horus?

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## mshan44



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## Nomad40

Armchair said:


> Ah, but we don't want a one man development show - we want a Pakistani "Skunk works" to take up such a project. Like the AVM Latif type team. Using spare parts and keeping it simple, I believe they can build an aircraft that will be a baby between the JF-17, Mirage and F-117. Internal bay for 2 1000 lb laser guided bombs... and there you have it. (or so I would argue).


sthaaap



nomi007 said:


> Two Egyptian C130 Spotted in a single Day
> REG: SU-BAR(1285)
> REG: SU-BAS(1286)
> View attachment 650363
> 
> 
> Any Link with Horus?


we have to do the registration of the first c-130.


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## ziaulislam

The Raven said:


> I can't see the PAF acquiring ex-Egyptian Mirages for the purposes of service in the PAF. For one thing, the Horus would have to be modified to use PAF weapons, such as H2/H4 and the Raad, as well as other avionics and equipment to integrate them into our Comms and datalinks, which would be timely and costly. Secondly, the PAF Mirages are meant to be gradually being replaced with the JF-17. The only reason the PAF would be interested in Egyptian Mirages is maybe to acquire a few airframes to canabalise for spare parts to keep existing PAF Mirages flightworthy until they are phased out. That may be particularly the case if there's any delay in the production of Block-3 JF-17. In addition, if the PAF acquired complete Horus airframes in large numbers for the purposes of service, they'd probably be transported by ship rather Hercules, as otherwise, it would take way too long.


mating weapons with new radar will be a headache unless PAF went to France/Eygpt and brought MICA with it..
then these might be used for air to air role..

it would be far cheaper to simply ship these plans rather than fly them.

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## Scorpiooo

Viper27 said:


> The previous trips were pretty much confirmed deliveries of Horus and I'm quite sure these two must be for the same purpose but this guy Rana Suhaib who generally has access to bases is saying today's flights weren't for delivering Horus. Just confusing.


How many Horus can accommodated in one C130


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Scorpiooo said:


> How many Horus can accommodated in one C130


*Maybe four without the wings!*

*There are a lot of good technology built into these planes(HORUS) . For one RC400 radar is capable of launching MICA missiles .Apparently French were holding up this deal for long time to please India. A few months old news excerpt is below...
"Negotiations to purchase 36 such aircrafts almost reached the final stage", one of the person familiar with the negotiations said. These jets were retired from service by the Egyptian Air Force long ago, so Pakistan will have to refurbish them before pressing the aircraft into service. The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation."*

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## Shah_Deu

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Maybe four without the wings!*
> 
> *There are a lot of good technology built into these planes(HORUS) . For one RC400 radar is capable of launching MICA missiles .Apparently French were holding up this deal for long time to please India. A few months old news excerpt is below...
> "Negotiations to purchase 36 such aircrafts almost reached the final stage", one of the person familiar with the negotiations said. These jets were retired from service by the Egyptian Air Force long ago, so Pakistan will have to refurbish them before pressing the aircraft into service. The Mirage V in question possesses a helmet-mounted display, mission pods, and night strike capability. Sources said Pakistan would upgrade these jets before putting a few of them into operation."*


Interestingly, RC-400 Radar can reportedly fire Russian missiles as well. Which basically means the radar architecture allows non-Nato products to be mated (sort of open-code).
This would be an excellent additional bonus, considering firing Chinese missiles should be possible with slight coding adjustments. In such a case, a mirage Horus with SD-10 wont surprise me a dime. 
We are in short talking about a Mirage 5 with true multi-role capabilities in PA colors!

*"The radar can track a 5m2 (55ft2) target in low-altitude/look-down mode at 100km (55nm) range, says the company, and air-to-ground ranging is possible down to a "few metres" accuracy. **The RC400 is compatible with European and Russian beyond visual range missiles*,* says de la Bourdonnaye."*

https://www.flightglobal.com/thomson-csf-unveils-rc400-airborne-radar/26925.article

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## The Maverick

Why would you wish to keep adding to a fleet of mirage 5 .
The design is like 1970 IE MIG21 era 

If you getting used second hand jets get F16 or USED Mirage2000 

The Mirage 5 airframes and flight controls are ancient


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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> Why would you wish to keep adding to a fleet of mirage 5 .
> The design is like 1970 IE MIG21 era
> 
> If you getting used second hand jets get F16 or USED Mirage2000
> 
> The Mirage 5 airframes and flight controls are ancient


no new squadrons are being added for mirages..they would replace the existing mirages or be as spares for them


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## Shah_Deu

The Maverick said:


> Why would you wish to keep adding to a fleet of mirage 5


Ever heard of Cost-Benefit ratio? Its all about leveraging existing infrastructure to add numbers at a throw away price.



The Maverick said:


> The design is like 1970 IE MIG21 era


You know what other designs are from 70s era? Mig-29 (first flight 1977), F-15 (first flight 1972), F-16 (first flight 1974). Infact the C-130 which your AF recently bought, made its first flight in 1950s (1954 to be exact!). So the moral of the story is that an old design could match contemporary needs if reasonably updated with the technology of time.



The Maverick said:


> The Mirage 5 airframes are ancient


The airframes dont get old just with the passage of time, the get old by having flown for a specific number of hours. As long as you have enough life left on a platform, it is irrelevant in which year or in which decade was it built.

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## The Maverick

ziaulislam said:


> no new squadrons are being added for mirages..they would replace the existing mirages or be as spares for them




How many fighters and sqds of mirage 5 are PAF retaining and until what time period .

This is my guess PAF tonight 


1 sqd F16/52 = 18 fighter
3 sqd F16 mlu/A/B = 55 fighters 
3 sqds block1 thunders = 50 fighters
4 sqds block 2 Thunders = 70 fighters
6 sqds Mirage5 = 120 fighters 
3 sqds F7PG = 55 fighters 

THIS MAKES THE MIRAGE 5 the most numerous fighters in your airforce


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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> How many fighters and sqds of mirage 5 are PAF retaining and until what time period .
> 
> This is my guess PAF tonight
> 
> 
> 1 sqd F16/52 = 18 fighter
> 3 sqd F16 mlu/A/B = 55 fighters
> 3 sqds block1 thunders = 50 fighters
> 4 sqds block 2 Thunders = 70 fighters
> 6 sqds Mirage5 = 120 fighters
> 3 sqds F7PG = 55 fighters
> 
> THIS MAKES THE MIRAGE 5 the most numerous fighters in your airforce


no it makes jf17 the most numerous aircarft and mirage on course of replacement in next 5-10 years
by the way mig 21 was the most numerous aircraft in IAF while mirage5 equivalent jauguars are second most common/numerous aircraft in IAF

my guess is PG will go next(till 2024, block III) followed by mirages(till 2030/block IV)..
originally plan was to get 2-3 squadrons of something else(j10s/f16s) but thats not happening so everything is delayed but if f16s come, then this process might be accelerated

the whole point is these mirages will supplement existing mirages and PAF will not add more mirage squardons

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## The Maverick

Shah_Deu said:


> Ever heard of Cost-Benefit ratio? Its all about leveraging existing infrastructure to add numbers at a throw away price.
> 
> 
> You know what other designs are from 70s era? Mig-29 (first flight 1977), F-15 (first flight 1972), F-16 (first flight 1974). Infact the C-130 which your AF recently bought, made its first flight in 1950s (1954 to be exact!). So the moral of the story is that an old design could match contemporary needs if reasonably updated with the technology of time.
> 
> 
> The airframes dont get old just with the passage of time, the get old by having flown for a specific number of hours. As long as you have enough life left on a platform, it is irrelevant in which year or in which decade was it built.




The MIRAGE 5 first flew in 1955 
The build quality is 70 year old technology
metal alloy airframe
All hydraulic gears no digital FBW

Mirage5 was relaced by mirage2000 then rafale

Mirage5 was a Mig21 of france ..........its ancient






ziaulislam said:


> no it makes jf17 the most numerous aircarft and mirage on course of replacement in next 5-10 years
> by the way mig 21 was the most numerous aircraft in IAF while mirage5 equivalent jauguars are second most common/numerous aircraft in IAF




IT WAS 

IAF tonight

272 Su30mki 
100 Jaguar 
63 MIG29upg
54 Mig21 BIISON
45 Mirage2000
20 Tejas 

THE DIFFERENCE between PAF & IAF 

IAF is acquiring 12 su30 mki & 21 mig29upg as a interim measure and spares & attrition losses. For cheap money ie about $1.4 billion for the planes alone & $1 billion of new BVRS and WVR missles 

PAF is aquiring 36 MIRAGE 5 for same resason ie attrition losses and spares etc. 

IAF = new gen fighters 36 rafales & 20 Tejas ( 20 delivered alrready)

PAF = New gen fighters 50 block 3 thunders

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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> The MIRAGE 5 first flew in 1955
> The build quality is 70 year old technology
> metal alloy airframe
> All hydraulic gears no digital FBW
> 
> Mirage5 was relaced by mirage2000 then rafale
> 
> Mirage5 was a Mig21 of france ..........its ancient
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IT WAS
> 
> IAF tonight
> 
> 272 Su30mki
> 100 Jaguar
> 63 MIG29upg
> 54 Mig21 BIISON
> 45 Mirage2000
> 20 Tejas
> 
> THE DIFFERENCE between PAF & IAF
> 
> IAF is acquiring 12 su30 mki & 21 mig29upg as a interim measure and spares & attrition losses. For cheap money ie about $1.4 billion for the planes alone & $1 billion of new BVRS and WVR missles
> 
> PAF is aquiring 36 MIRAGE 5 for same resason ie attrition losses and spares etc.
> 
> IAF = new gen fighters 36 rafales & 20 Tejas ( 20 delivered alrready)
> 
> PAF = New gen fighters 50 block 3 thunders


YES, jaguars flew in 1960s, was very underpowered, and is worse than mirage 5 in every other way,s till the second most common aircraft in IAF just like mirage 5 is in PAF..
PAF is acquiring for spare parts, as spares are no longer built, something india is doing with jaguars , already received 31 used from france as spares
https://defpost.com/indian-air-force-acquire-used-jaguar-attack-aircraft-france-oman-uk/

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Why not build a new dedicated Mirage replacement. Use a Skunk works like process - where the cobbled together the F-117 from parts of various other aircraft.
> 
> A stealthy, low level strike aircraft. After watching this video, I believe it is perfectly possible with the right project management decisions:



Hi,

The JF17 is an extremely inexpensive aircraft for the Paf in its own flight parameters---.

The problem happens when you change those parameters---. Then---it maybe successful---it may not be successful---. You also need to look at a different engine as well.

For that reason---JH7A is the best option---.

We would never know about the failed projects at Skunkwerks---.

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## ziaulislam

Shah_Deu said:


> Interestingly, RC-400 Radar can reportedly fire Russian missiles as well. Which basically means the radar architecture allows non-Nato products to be mated (sort of open-code).
> This would be an excellent additional bonus, considering firing Chinese missiles should be possible with slight coding adjustments. In such a case, a mirage Horus with SD-10 wont surprise me a dime.
> We are in short talking about a Mirage 5 with true multi-role capabilities in PA colors!
> 
> *"The radar can track a 5m2 (55ft2) target in low-altitude/look-down mode at 100km (55nm) range, says the company, and air-to-ground ranging is possible down to a "few metres" accuracy. **The RC400 is compatible with European and Russian beyond visual range missiles*,* says de la Bourdonnaye."*
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/thomson-csf-unveils-rc400-airborne-radar/26925.article


question would PAF think its worth the effort?
my guess is they wont bother adding the SD10 but will consider if they get the MICA some how

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## Nomad40

The Maverick said:


> How many fighters and sqds of mirage 5 are PAF retaining and until what time period .
> 
> This is my guess PAF tonight
> 
> 
> 1 sqd F16/52 = 18 fighter
> 3 sqd F16 mlu/A/B = 55 fighters
> 3 sqds block1 thunders = 50 fighters
> 4 sqds block 2 Thunders = 70 fighters
> 6 sqds Mirage5 = 120 fighters
> 3 sqds F7PG = 55 fighters
> 
> THIS MAKES THE MIRAGE 5 the most numerous fighters in your airforce


57* + bunch of nasty nasty surprises abhi ana khusbu laga kar.


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## Akh1112

The Maverick said:


> The MIRAGE 5 first flew in 1955
> The build quality is 70 year old technology
> metal alloy airframe
> All hydraulic gears no digital FBW
> 
> Mirage5 was relaced by mirage2000 then rafale
> 
> Mirage5 was a Mig21 of france ..........its ancient
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IT WAS
> 
> IAF tonight
> 
> 272 Su30mki
> 100 Jaguar
> 63 MIG29upg
> 54 Mig21 BIISON
> 45 Mirage2000
> 20 Tejas
> 
> THE DIFFERENCE between PAF & IAF
> 
> IAF is acquiring 12 su30 mki & 21 mig29upg as a interim measure and spares & attrition losses. For cheap money ie about $1.4 billion for the planes alone & $1 billion of new BVRS and WVR missles
> 
> PAF is aquiring 36 MIRAGE 5 for same resason ie attrition losses and spares etc.
> 
> IAF = new gen fighters 36 rafales & 20 Tejas ( 20 delivered alrready)
> 
> PAF = New gen fighters 50 block 3 thunders




Right but heres the issue with your logic. Qualitatively, a Mirage V Horus, equipped with MICA is arguably superior to about 490-510 of your aircraft. The biggest threat the PAF faces atm is the M2K's and then the Rafale. Realistically, Flankers suffer from sad avionics which put them in the crosshairs of even the earlier JF-17 iterations with their superior SD-10. Mig-21's suffer from the Kopyo making use of a tiny antenna because of the nose cone size, 30km for a 3m^2 RCS, pretty poor. Mig-29 UPG's 120km for a 5m^2 RCS, again, pretty poor by modern standards, outclassed by both the KLJ-7 and KLJ-7V2, alongside this, they probably also dont have as good ECM/ECCM resistance as the Chinese radars considering they were derived from earlier, cold war systems.



ziaulislam said:


> question would PAF think its worth the effort?
> my guess is they wont bother adding the SD10 but will consider if they get the MICA some how




It would make the most sense to go for the MICA on cost grounds, however, i feel like there would be some difficulties with integrating the SD-10 considering relations between France and China have gone frosty.

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## nomi007

Mirage Horus are coming with weapon package or just jets?


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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The JF17 is an extremely inexpensive aircraft for the Paf in its own flight parameters---.
> 
> The problem happens when you change those parameters---. Then---it maybe successful---it may not be successful---. You also need to look at a different engine as well.
> 
> For that reason---JH7A is the best option---.
> 
> We would never know about the failed projects at Skunkwerks---.


I can agree with you on this one JH-7Aii will be an excellent replacement for mirage's.



nomi007 said:


> Mirage Horus are coming with weapon package or just jets?


NO only spare's.



Akh1112 said:


> Right but heres the issue with your logic. Qualitatively, a Mirage V Horus, equipped with MICA is arguably superior to about 490-510 of your aircraft. The biggest threat the PAF faces atm is the M2K's and then the Rafale. Realistically, Flankers suffer from sad avionics which put them in the crosshairs of even the earlier JF-17 iterations with their superior SD-10. Mig-21's suffer from the Kopyo making use of a tiny antenna because of the nose cone size, 30km for a 3m^2 RCS, pretty poor. Mig-29 UPG's 120km for a 5m^2 RCS, again, pretty poor by modern standards, outclassed by both the KLJ-7 and KLJ-7V2, alongside this, they probably also dont have as good ECM/ECCM resistance as the Chinese radars considering they were derived from earlier, cold war systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would make the most sense to go for the MICA on cost grounds, however, i feel like there would be some difficulties with integrating the SD-10 considering relations between France and China have gone frosty.


Flanker has excellent avionics, it is one of the best dog-fighters it's thrust to weight ratio is impeccable. 

I know how the flanker fights and it's a dangerous opponent there is a massive weakness of the flanker and well all know what it is and that is what gives us an advantage over the flank. Its biggest disadvantage is PAF's greatest advantage.

M2k are excellent plane's, a threat on par of the flank.

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## denel

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I can agree with you on this one JH-7Aii will be an excellent replacement for mirage's.
> 
> 
> NO only spare's.
> 
> 
> Flanker has excellent avionics, it is one of the best dog-fighters it's thrust to weight ratio is impeccable.
> 
> I know how the flanker fights and it's a dangerous opponent there is a massive weakness of the flanker and well all know what it is and that is what gives us an advantage over the flank. Its biggest disadvantage is PAF's greatest advantage.
> 
> M2k are excellent plane's, a threat on par of the flank.


problem with flankers - they are too too maintenance hungry.

i concur with you - jh-7 is ideal platform but you me and @MastanKhan are the only ones who keep proposing but get hostile responses.

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## Nomad40

denel said:


> problem with flankers - they are too too maintenance hungry.


yes and the air intakes--------awful awful RCS, Like the fattest person in the gym.

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## Akh1112

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I can agree with you on this one JH-7Aii will be an excellent replacement for mirage's.
> 
> 
> NO only spare's.
> 
> 
> Flanker has excellent avionics, it is one of the best dog-fighters it's thrust to weight ratio is impeccable.
> 
> I know how the flanker fights and it's a dangerous opponent there is a massive weakness of the flanker and well all know what it is and that is what gives us an advantage over the flank. Its biggest disadvantage is PAF's greatest advantage.
> 
> M2k are excellent plane's, a threat on par of the flank.




"
Flanker has excellent avionics, it is one of the best dog-fighters it's thrust to weight ratio is impeccable.

I know how the flanker fights and it's a dangerous opponent there is a massive weakness of the flanker and well all know what it is and that is what gives us an advantage over the flank. Its biggest disadvantage is PAF's greatest advantage."

This is objectively false. The Flankers have been widely reported to have poor avionics, just an example. Look at the PLAAF vs Thai air force DACT exercise, Thai Gripens smashed the SU-30MKK's of the PLAAF, however, when the PLAAF brought out the J-10s and J-16's the Gripens got their a** handed to them.


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## Saifullah

Akh1112 said:


> "
> This is objectively false. The Flankers have been widely reported to have poor avionics, just an example. Look at the PLAAF vs Thai air force DACT exercise, Thai Gripens smashed the SU-30MKK's of the PLAAF, however, when the PLAAF brought out the J-10s and J-16's the Gripens got their a** handed to them.


Flankers in Russian forces are extreemly excellent platforms. Indians bought a good piece of fighting machine and made them not so good fighting machine. Hopefully they keep doing it with their stuff.

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## Akh1112

Saifullah said:


> Flankers in Russian forces are extreemly excellent platforms. Indians bought a good piece of fighting machine and made them not so good fighting machine. Hopefully they keep doing it with their stuff.




Id argue IAF flankers are technologically superior. Besides, we can look back to the example i cited.


----------



## Nomad40

Akh1112 said:


> "
> Flanker has excellent avionics, it is one of the best dog-fighters it's thrust to weight ratio is impeccable.
> 
> I know how the flanker fights and it's a dangerous opponent there is a massive weakness of the flanker and well all know what it is and that is what gives us an advantage over the flank. Its biggest disadvantage is PAF's greatest advantage."
> 
> This is objectively false. The Flankers have been widely reported to have poor avionics, just an example. Look at the PLAAF vs Thai air force DACT exercise, Thai Gripens smashed the SU-30MKK's of the PLAAF, however, when the PLAAF brought out the J-10s and J-16's the Gripens got their a** handed to them.


We are talking about MKI's they have pretty good avionics PERIOD. Stop comparing an MKK to The MKI the whole avionics package exception of the Radar is bulked Israeli and french.

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## Akh1112

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> We are talking about MKI's they have pretty good avionics PERIOD. Stop comparing an MKK to The MKI the whole avionics package exception of the Radar is bulked Israeli and french.




Ok and what is the most important part of a modern fighter????


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## Nomad40

Akh1112 said:


> Ok and what is the most important part of a modern fighter????


The fighter pilot.

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## HAIDER

*The Dassault-Breguet Mirage 5SDE Fighters at Egyptian Air Force*

In 1970, President Nasser died and was succeeded by Anwar Sadat. Sadat switched Egypt's Cold War allegiance from the Soviet Union to the United States, expelling Soviet advisors in 1972. Egypt got the chance to purchase non soviet weapons too. The first order placed by Egypt for Mirage fighters were in 1972 and the order was founded by Saudi Arabia.

The Egyptian pilots were introduced to Mirage-III/5 fighters in the beginning of the seventies when about 20 Egyptian pilots traveled to Libya to fly its Mirage fighters as part of Libyan support program in which Libya offered its fighters to help the EAF in its war with Israel. Egyptian pilots flew Libyan Mirage fighters during the war and they were pleased for its high performance.

In 1972 Saudi Arabia issued an order for 32 Mirage 5SDE tactical fighters and 6 Mirage 5SDD two seat conversion trainer. These aircrafts were purchased by the Saudis on behalf of Egypt. Their deliveries began in 1974. While still in France all wore markings of the Royal Saudi Air Force, but they never reached Saudi Arabia.










Instead, in 1974 all were delivered to Egypt, where the first batch entered service with the No.69 Squadron. Together with some original Libyan examples of Mirage 5DE and Mirage 5Ds, these took part in the October War, 1973, and suffered some losses.

Subsequently, Saudis financed additional deals during the '70s. Purchased 14 Mirage 5SDE in December 1975. And eight 5SDE and six recce Mirage 5SDR in December 1977.







The Mirage 5 was the first western fighter ordered by Egypt since the Vampire and Meteor in 1950. Egypt went in a large Mirage 5 purchasing program in which she purchased more than 54 Mirage-5SDE's, 6 Mirage 5SDD's and 6 Mirage-5SDR's. The French Dassault Aviation delivered 66 combat aircraft between 1974 and 1980.















The Egyptian Mirage 5SDE combat aircraft was similar to the French Mirage IIIE fighter bomber. These aircrafts were very good equipped. All of them were equipped with Cyrano IV radar. Egypt used these fighters for multi-role missions. Air defense mission using guns, Matra R.530 medium to short range air-to-air missiles and Matra R.550 Magic short-range air-to-air missiles. For ground attack using bombs and rockets.




































Pictured during a pre-delivery flight is the 1000th aircraft produced in the Mirage III, 5, and 50 range (all using the same basic airframe) that was one of the 54 aircraft purchased by Saudi Arabia and donated to the Egypt AF.

It is accompanied by the 200th aircraft produced in the Mirage F1 series, and was one of the 40 aircraft delivered to the Greek AF as a single-seat multi-role fighter.

All Egyptian Mirage detail 
http://www.easternorbat.com/html/dassault_mirage_5_eng.html

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## Akh1112

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> The fighter pilot.




Alright lol, if you want to be a smartass, go for it. You know im right.


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## Nomad40

Akh1112 said:


> Alright lol, if you want to be a smartass, go for it. You know im right.


Absolutely.

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## ghazi52



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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEP/2799

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> question would PAF think its worth the effort?
> my guess is they wont bother adding the SD10 but will consider if they get the MICA some how



Putting SD-10 will be wiser decision as it is better in terms of Range and availability and can hold it's own.



Akh1112 said:


> Right but heres the issue with your logic. Qualitatively, a Mirage V Horus, equipped with MICA is arguably superior to about 490-510 of your aircraft. The biggest threat the PAF faces atm is the M2K's and then the Rafale. Realistically, Flankers suffer from sad avionics which put them in the crosshairs of even the earlier JF-17 iterations with their superior SD-10. Mig-21's suffer from the Kopyo making use of a tiny antenna because of the nose cone size, 30km for a 3m^2 RCS, pretty poor. Mig-29 UPG's 120km for a 5m^2 RCS, again, pretty poor by modern standards, outclassed by both the KLJ-7 and KLJ-7V2, alongside this, they probably also dont have as good ECM/ECCM resistance as the Chinese radars considering they were derived from earlier, cold war systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would make the most sense to go for the MICA on cost grounds, however, i feel like there would be some difficulties with integrating the SD-10 considering relations between France and China have gone frosty.



It will be stupid to go for a AAM which have less range then already in service AAMs JFT had upper hand on 27.02.2019 against M2Ks and one reason was short range of MICA BVR.


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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> Putting SD-10 will be wiser decision as it is better in terms of Range and availability and can hold it's own.
> 
> 
> 
> It will be stupid to go for a AAM which have less range then already in service AAMs JFT had upper hand on 27.02.2019 against M2Ks and one reason was short range of MICA BVR.


the range is one thing but end-stage effectiveness of BVR is also something to keep in mind
second MCIA will already be integrated with the new radar and sd 10 might need integration if true PAF will not bother putting it through integration, as it needs mirages for other roles first

yeah very funny that mirage2000 radar was not thought to be good enough to support meteor and MICA was what it settled for and that too at 2.5B price tag?

now the HAMMER being bought is 3x expensive than spice(whcih itself is several times more expensive than chinese/PAF home built systems)..at cost of millions of $$..

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> the range is one thing but end-stage effectiveness of BVR is also something to keep in mind
> second MCIA will already be integrated with the new radar and sd 10 might need integration if true PAF will not bother putting it through integration, as it needs mirages for other roles first
> 
> yeah very funny that mirage2000 radar was not thought to be good enough to support meteor and MICA was what it settled for and that too at 2.5B price tag?
> 
> now the HAMMER being bought is 3x expensive than spice(whcih itself is several times more expensive than chinese/PAF home built systems)..at cost of millions of $$..



Do you really think French will sell Chinese ally any potent stuff while they are selling same to India too. 

Also MICA with 60km range is not good and it's not Superior to what currently Pakistan have, if MICA-IR is offered then it will be good to have as PAF currently don't have Latest gently IR AAM.


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## AMRAAM

What I have recently learned through a video of defense metrix is that the price of hammer is 1/3rd of spice.


ziaulislam said:


> the range is one thing but end-stage effectiveness of BVR is also something to keep in mind
> second MCIA will already be integrated with the new radar and sd 10 might need integration if true PAF will not bother putting it through integration, as it needs mirages for other roles first
> 
> yeah very funny that mirage2000 radar was not thought to be good enough to support meteor and MICA was what it settled for and that too at 2.5B price tag?
> 
> now the HAMMER being bought is 3x expensive than spice(whcih itself is several times more expensive than chinese/PAF home built systems)..at cost of millions of $$..


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## ziaulislam

AMRAAM said:


> What I have recently learned through a video of defense metrix is that the price of hammer is 1/3rd of spice.


Okay 
No sir hammer way more expensive ...
Hammer cost around 200,000 a kit 
That is 8x the cost of any stand off weapon



Basel said:


> Do you really think French will sell Chinese ally any potent stuff while they are selling same to India too.
> 
> Also MICA with 60km range is not good and it's not Superior to what currently Pakistan have, if MICA-IR is offered then it will be good to have as PAF currently don't have Latest gently IR AAM.


French will sell anything to anyone for money

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## mshan44



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## Windjammer

*Close Enough. *

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VEF/737

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## The Eagle



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## AMRAAM

The Eagle said:


>


It has that h4 at the top.

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## ghazi52



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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEA/2887

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEA/2889

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## PakShaheen79

OK. If this highlighted part is correct. I am wondering why PAF/PAC never tried to replace the power plant of Mirages? Now I don't know if there is a technical issue which bars from replacing a turbojet with a turbofan but with complete freedom and capability of building air frame from scratch, this must have been done. May be the cost was a problem. What you guys have to say in this regard.

[Edit] : I am adding this news item from 2001. Look at the engine which was being evaluated in Cheeta-D


*Upgrade for South African fighters*
18 June 2001


Save article
A joint Russo-South African upgrade for the SAAF's Mirage-based Atlas Cheetah fighters is to be undertaken. Russian sources reveal that a formal announcement will be made at the MAKS-2001 Air Salon at Moscow's Zhukhovskii aerodrome in August. According to ITAR-TASS, the upgrade is to be undertaken jointly by South Africa's Armscor, the Russian MiG aircraft building corporation, the V. Ya. Klimov engine plant and the Vympel State Machine Building Design Bureau. *The exact content of the upgrade has not been revealed, although it is thought to include the Advanced Combat Wing (ACW) developed in South Africa, re-engining with the MiG-29's RD-33 turbofan (already flight tested by a South African Mirage F1 and a Cheetah D), and the integration of new weapons and avionics systems, probably including the Vympel RVV-AE (AA-12 ‘Adder').*

Modernisation

The upgrade will also provide a significant life extension, allowing the modernised Cheetahs to fly for a further 15 years. News of the upgrade comes as a surprise, as South Africa's Cheetahs were previously expected to be replaced by the SAAB/BAE Systems Gripens ordered last year. The aircraft may be being upgraded to be sold on to a third party, and not for use by the SAAF. The upgrade will also be offered to third party operators of the Mirage III, 5 and 50, including Pakistan, Peru and Venezuela, and perhaps to Argentina, which operates the similar Israeli-built Dagger (Finger) fighters. This represents an estimated $6 billion market comprising about 300-400 candidate aircraft.

_Source: Flight Daily News_
_https://www.flightglobal.com/upgrade-for-south-african-fighters/37933.article_

So, theoretically speaking, there is a possibility for PAC to extend the capabilities of PAF Mirages close to Mirage2000. Should we do that in presence of JF-17s remains a different debate altogether.

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## denel

PakShaheen79 said:


> View attachment 657032
> 
> OK. If this highlighted part is correct. I am wondering why PAF/PAC never tried to replace the power plant of Mirages? Now I don't know if there is a technical issue which bars from replacing a turbojet with a turbofan but with complete freedom and capability of building air frame from scratch, this must have been done. May be the cost was a problem. What you guys have to say in this regard.
> 
> [Edit] : I am adding this news item from 2001. Look at the engine which was being evaluated in Cheeta-D
> 
> 
> *Upgrade for South African fighters*
> 18 June 2001
> 
> 
> Save article
> A joint Russo-South African upgrade for the SAAF's Mirage-based Atlas Cheetah fighters is to be undertaken. Russian sources reveal that a formal announcement will be made at the MAKS-2001 Air Salon at Moscow's Zhukhovskii aerodrome in August. According to ITAR-TASS, the upgrade is to be undertaken jointly by South Africa's Armscor, the Russian MiG aircraft building corporation, the V. Ya. Klimov engine plant and the Vympel State Machine Building Design Bureau. *The exact content of the upgrade has not been revealed, although it is thought to include the Advanced Combat Wing (ACW) developed in South Africa, re-engining with the MiG-29's RD-33 turbofan (already flight tested by a South African Mirage F1 and a Cheetah D), and the integration of new weapons and avionics systems, probably including the Vympel RVV-AE (AA-12 ‘Adder').*
> 
> Modernisation
> 
> The upgrade will also provide a significant life extension, allowing the modernised Cheetahs to fly for a further 15 years. News of the upgrade comes as a surprise, as South Africa's Cheetahs were previously expected to be replaced by the SAAB/BAE Systems Gripens ordered last year. The aircraft may be being upgraded to be sold on to a third party, and not for use by the SAAF. The upgrade will also be offered to third party operators of the Mirage III, 5 and 50, including Pakistan, Peru and Venezuela, and perhaps to Argentina, which operates the similar Israeli-built Dagger (Finger) fighters. This represents an estimated $6 billion market comprising about 300-400 candidate aircraft.
> 
> _Source: Flight Daily News
> https://www.flightglobal.com/upgrade-for-south-african-fighters/37933.article_
> 
> So, theoretically speaking, there is a possibility for PAC to extend the capabilities of PAF Mirages close to Mirage2000. Should we do that in presence of JF-17s remains a different debate altogether.


Yes there is a very strong possibility if you choose to get Cheetah upgrade. RD-33 is not a simple plug into frame; there is a challenge with center of gravity which requires a change to the airframe too.

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## araz

denel said:


> Yes there is a very strong possibility if you choose to get Cheetah upgrade. RD-33 is not a simple plug into frame; there is a challenge with center of gravity which requires a change to the airframe too.


Thank you. This was the answer I was looking for. It is not a simple exercise of "take this engine out and put this one in". It would have been interesting to see what PAF's perspective was and whether they felt the gain was not worth the effort. But then I dont think they were planning to continue using the M3/5s till 2025. A simple answer to whether the cheetah upgrade would still be relevant in 2025 is what one would aspire to hear from a resident expert. In spite of the effort the South Africans did not induct the platform in any significant numbers which says a lot. The Israelis on the other hand do use it and keep upgrading it. So the assignment for anyone to take on is what the Israelis have done to the kfir as compared to the south african cheetah programme.
A

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## denel

araz said:


> Thank you. This was the answer I was looking for. It is not a simple exercise of "take this engine out and put this one in". It would have been interesting to see what PAF's perspective was and whether they felt the gain was not worth the effort. But then I dont think they were planning to continue using the M3/5s till 2025. A simple answer to whether the cheetah upgrade would still be relevant in 2025 is what one would aspire to hear from a resident expert. In spite of the effort the South Africans did not induct the platform in any significant numbers which says a lot. The Israelis on the other hand do use it and keep upgrading it. So the assignment for anyone to take on is what the Israelis have done to the kfir as compared to the south african cheetah programme.
> A


Actually, for us Cheetah was a stop gap measure until Lavi was available. We had converted all our airframes to Cheetah (that is entire fleet plus more using older Neshers). Then of course the situation changed completely not only around us but globally with soviet union dissolving. Kfir programs also too were slated to be halted for Lavi's induction.

But the fact we have already done this work it is available; i would not bother upgrading the engine if airframe upgrade is not on the cards..

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## araz

denel said:


> Actually, for us Cheetah was a stop gap measure until Lavi was available. We had converted all our airframes to Cheetah (that is entire fleet plus more using older Neshers). Then of course the situation changed completely not only around us but globally with soviet union dissolving. Kfir programs also too were slated to be halted for Lavi's induction.
> 
> But the fact we have already done this work it is available; i would not bother upgrading the engine if airframe upgrade is not on the cards..


Thank you once again for your input. I think PAF utilized the M3/5s to their best capability so they are not in the mood to fiddle with it beyond what is considered absolutely essential. The Horus acquisition sèems a departure from this line of thought but I guess having a 1 1/2 squadron of BVR capable fighters as a last resort is not a bad idea. The primary role of ground attack will remain the domain of the Mirages till they are retired.
A

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## ghazi52



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## nomi007

*H2 standoff weapon



*

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## The Raven

nomi007 said:


> *H2 standoff weapon
> View attachment 658162
> *



That's a Buccaneer ground attack aircraft.

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## Yasser76

The Raven said:


> That's a Buccaneer ground attack aircraft.



Yes, SAAF used to used them

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## denel

The Raven said:


> That's a Buccaneer ground attack aircraft.


Yes it is. Amazing aircraft. I remember long back when we were told to support raid on Lusaka using these. Everything had to be perfect given the boys would be pushing it to the max range. This was a day time raid around 2pm.

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## The Raven

denel said:


> Yes it is. Amazing aircraft. I remember long back when we were told to support raid on Lusaka using these. Everything had to be perfect given the boys would be pushing it to the max range. This was a day time raid around 2pm.



Indeed, I recall how the Brits were still using it for precision strike missions in the first Gulf war in the early 90s. How did you guys find the Bucc in the low level role, especially in the hot and dusty conditions on Africa?


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## denel

The Raven said:


> Indeed, I recall how the Brits were still using it for precision strike missions in the first Gulf war in the early 90s. How did you guys find the Bucc in the low level role, especially in the hot and dusty conditions on Africa?


It was a potent bomber. ideal for our situation; remember we are at very high altitude - average 1200m+ above sea level. It was also designed for carrying our nuclear warheads as well. The only bomber which could carry it internally.
It is interesting ... wiki does not mention that raid in 86 .

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## jamal18

The Raven said:


> Indeed, I recall how the Brits were still using it for precision strike missions in the first Gulf war in the early 90s. How did you guys find the Bucc in the low level role, especially in the hot and dusty conditions on Africa?



I think the task of the Buccanear was to 'light up' the target for laser guided strikes by the Tornado.


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## Aamir Hussain

If I recall correctly, Iraqi, AAA took a heavy toll of low flying Tornados and Buccaneers during the early days of Gulf War I

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## denel

Aamir Hussain said:


> If I recall correctly, Iraqi, AAA took a heavy toll of low flying Tornados and Buccaneers during the early days of Gulf War I


yes they did.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VPA/2914

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VEF-ROSE-II/2060

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## mshan44



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## Windjammer

Australian Mirages on their way to Pakistan during the 90s.

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## Metal 0-1

Any word on Horus Mirages?


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## Talon

Not an elephant walk

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## Yasser76

Massive testament to PAC in how well maintained and smart these Mirages look. PAF has looked after them well and obviously overhauls and modernisation done to high standard. If you look at current pics of IAF MIG-21s and Jaguars of similar age in Indian service you will see what I mean.

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## The Raven

Really going to miss these when they finally go.


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## Chak Bamu

The Raven said:


> Really going to miss these when they finally go.


Save up. You may be able to buy one

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## Metal 0-1

Do our Mirage pilots wear NVGs during night Ops?


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## denel

Chak Bamu said:


> Save up. You may be able to buy one


I have kept the old hf transceiver from these old M3s. SAAF had hf transceiver which was very unusual.

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## denel

Yasser76 said:


> Massive testament to PAC in how well maintained and smart these Mirages look. PAF has looked after them well and obviously overhauls and modernisation done to high standard. If you look at current pics of IAF MIG-21s and Jaguars of similar age in Indian service you will see what I mean.


The gray paint scheme really shines.

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## nomi007

Dassault Mirage III/V need *JAN NASHEEN.*


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## mingle

Hodor said:


> Not an elephant walk
> 
> View attachment 660228


Any news about Horus??


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## Talon

mingle said:


> Any news about Horus??


I think I have made my stance clear about Horus

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## Talon



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## Viper27

Hodor said:


> View attachment 660404



I recall there was some news on PDF about avionics upgrade of Mirages..any update on that?


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## Yasser76

Viper27 said:


> I recall there was some news on PDF about avionics upgrade of Mirages..any update on that?



Seems too late, what will any upgrade conceivably give us that a new Block III JF-17 cannot?

Why upgrade airframes that are now many years old (even used ones we have purchased)?

We only have 4 front line Mirage units left, 2 of which may well be retired in the next year or so.

Any decent upgrade to get these planes above ROSE I/II/III standard would by definition be very expensive and may require a more powerful engine.

Mirage has done sterling service for PAF, I would rate it's impact on our air force only behind that of F-86 and F-16, however soon time to say goodbye to this faithful bird....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Seems too late, what will any upgrade conceivably give us that a new Block III JF-17 cannot?
> 
> Why upgrade airframes that are now many years old (even used ones we have purchased)?
> 
> We only have 4 front line Mirage units left, 2 of which may well be retired in the next year or so.
> 
> Any decent upgrade to get these planes above ROSE I/II/III standard would by definition be very expensive and may require a more powerful engine.
> 
> Mirage has done sterling service for PAF, I would rate it's impact on our air force only behind that of F-86 and F-16, however soon time to say goodbye to this faithful bird....


IIRC there's a bid for a new glass cockpit (in the Mirages), but don't know of anything more than that.

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## denel

Hodor said:


> View attachment 660404


This colour scheme really reminds me of SAAF Cheetahs.


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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC there's a bid for a new glass cockpit (in the Mirages), but don't know of anything more than that.



Makes sense, cheap way of making pilot life easier and much need for guided weapons delivery I guess.


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> Seems too late, what will any upgrade conceivably give us that a new Block III JF-17 cannot?
> 
> Why upgrade airframes that are now many years old (even used ones we have purchased)?
> 
> We only have 4 front line Mirage units left, 2 of which may well be retired in the next year or so.
> 
> Any decent upgrade to get these planes above ROSE I/II/III standard would by definition be very expensive and may require a more powerful engine.
> 
> Mirage has done sterling service for PAF, I would rate it's impact on our air force only behind that of F-86 and F-16, however soon time to say goodbye to this faithful bird....


My guess is f7 pg and f7s(4 squardons) will go first
Leaving behind 4 mirage ROSE or mirage 5 till 2030 atleast 
So cockpit upgrade might be due

Now if PAF can get few squardons of f16s and j10s then ofcourse this project will be scrapped


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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> My guess is f7 pg and f7s(4 squardons) will go first
> Leaving behind 4 mirage ROSE or mirage 5 till 2030 atleast
> So cockpit upgrade might be due
> 
> Now if PAF can get few squardons of f16s and j10s then ofcourse this project will be scrapped



F-7s I think are gone from the frontline. I think PGs are only around 20 years old and with Grifo radars, I would be surprised if we retired these, but then Mirage is a brilliant ground attack/strike plane still, something PG simply cannot do


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

nomi007 said:


> Dassault Mirage III/V need *JAN NASHEEN.*


*Babaji cannot have off springs, although its still sturdy and healthy enough to finish its own fights.*

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEA/1728

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> I think I have made my stance clear about Horus


Pher Asi Na hi samajye


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## mshan44



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## Bossman

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Babaji cannot have off springs, although its still sturdy and healthy enough to finish its own fights.*


It did, even grandkids Mirage 2K and Rafale


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-VPA3/2685

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## Scorpiooo

PAF Mirage-5PA2.

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## Incog_nito

Scorpiooo said:


> PAF Mirage-5PA2.
> View attachment 661325



Why not PAC work with Dassault and covert them into strike UCAVs? This will open doors for Dassault to convert other aircraft into such machines & keep the pilots to just new aircraft.

Possible Aircraft can be:

Mirage III
Mirage V
Mirage F1s
Jaguars
Tornadoes
F-5s
F-4

And maybe some new aircrafts like:


Mirage-2000s
F-15s A/B/C/D
F-16s A/B
F-18s A/B/C/D


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## The Accountant

Incog_nito said:


> Why not PAC work with Dassault and covert them into strike UCAVs? This will open doors for Dassault to convert other aircraft into such machines & keep the pilots to just new aircraft.
> 
> Possible Aircraft can be:
> 
> Mirage III
> Mirage V
> Mirage F1s
> Jaguars
> Tornadoes
> F-5s
> F-4
> 
> And maybe some new aircrafts like:
> 
> 
> Mirage-2000s
> F-15s A/B/C/D
> F-16s A/B
> F-18s A/B/C/D


Running cost of these fighters is too high to convert them into UCAV. Furthermore conversion itself will cost alot as these aircrafts are all hydraulic with turbo jet engines

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## denel

Incog_nito said:


> Why not PAC work with Dassault and covert them into strike UCAVs? This will open doors for Dassault to convert other aircraft into such machines & keep the pilots to just new aircraft.
> 
> Possible Aircraft can be:
> 
> Mirage III
> Mirage V
> Mirage F1s
> Jaguars
> Tornadoes
> F-5s
> F-4
> 
> And maybe some new aircrafts like:
> 
> 
> Mirage-2000s
> F-15s A/B/C/D
> F-16s A/B
> F-18s A/B/C/D


You can get far better results with new platforms designed from scratch with UAV in mind vs using old platforms.

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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> You can get far better results with new platforms designed from scratch with UAV in mind vs using old platforms.


Hi denel is it possible to fit jf17 Russian engines in these Mirages if need arise in future 
If yes will that fitting give these fighters any extra punch or more hard points etc 
If possible to answer 
Thank you


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## The Accountant

Readerdefence said:


> Hi denel is it possible to fit jf17 Russian engines in these Mirages if need arise in future
> If yes will that fitting give these fighters any extra punch or more hard points etc
> If possible to answer
> Thank you


Changing fighter aircraft is a complicated process. Not worth with the 50 years old airframes. Why u want to use mirrages when thunders r available ?

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## ziaulislam

The Accountant said:


> Changing fighter aircraft is a complicated process. Not worth with the 50 years old airframes. Why u want to use mirrages when thunders r available ?


some people think mirages are more suitable for strike

i disagree..today its an era of small diameter bombs and hexagonal launchers per hard point.
a jf 17 with three fuel fuel pods and two hardpoints for 1000kg each capacity/2000kg is a better option then pushing mirages beyond their useful life 

given jf17s are multirole and can quickly adapt to different need

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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi denel is it possible to fit jf17 Russian engines in these Mirages if need arise in future
> If yes will that fitting give these fighters any extra punch or more hard points etc
> If possible to answer
> Thank you


Yes you can but there is airframe refitment needed plus center of gravity changes significantly. If you want best bang for money - use Atar-9K.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> some people think mirages are more suitable for strike
> 
> i disagree..today its an era of small diameter bombs and hexagonal launchers per hard point.
> a jf 17 with three fuel fuel pods and two hardpoints for 1000kg each capacity/2000kg is a better option then pushing mirages beyond their useful life
> 
> given jf17s are multirole and can quickly adapt to different need


The Mirages are key for the H-2/H-4 and Ra'ad ALCM. However, the need for Mirage has more to do with the design of those munitions than anything inherently good about the Mirage III/5.

I think the Raptor III (the evolution of the H-2/H-4, which are Raptor-I/II) and Ra'ad II should be able to fit under the wings of the JF-17. In my view, the Mirages will go once we qualify the JF-17 for full SOW deployment.

In fact, we'll need to move towards compact SOW design anyways. There's no other way to feasibly configure a FGFA for long-range strike (especially if we want to use internal bays). 

Denel Raptor III





Ra'ad II

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> However, the need for Mirage has more to do with the design of those munitions than anything inherently good about the Mirage III/5.


...and the fact that AWC knows the Mirage inside-out and can integrate munitions to their heart's desire (without having to deal some sneaky flight control system).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> ...and the fact that AWC knows the Mirage inside-out and can integrate munitions to their heart's desire (without having to deal some sneaky flight control system).


The PAF was literally brought down by the thing we mocked India for developing for Tejas.

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## Chak Bamu

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF was literally brought down by the thing we mocked India for developing for Tejas.


Kinda cryptic. I can guess what you are hinting at, but can not make the connection with PAF being brought down. Care to elaborate a bit more?

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## JamD

Chak Bamu said:


> Kinda cryptic. I can guess what you are hinting at, but can not make the connection with PAF being brought down. Care to elaborate a bit more?


Development (and complete ownership) of the flight control system.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Chak Bamu said:


> Kinda cryptic. I can guess what you are hinting at, but can not make the connection with PAF being brought down. Care to elaborate a bit more?


As @JamD said... India developed the FCS of the Tejas, which was a reason for delays in the Tejas program. That said, we didn't need to develop an FCS of our own, but we didn't learn as much as we needed to about the tech.

Saab didn't make the FCS of the Gripen, but it knows enough about it (and the tech) to integrate whatever it wants to the fighter. We need to get to at least that point for the JF-17 and our FGFA (especially if we opt for a consortium or off-the-shelf route).

I have a general point, but we have a culture of 'being up our butts' which we need to get out of... The naivete surrounding the Rafale, Tejas, S-400, etc, etc is comical, if not a little scary. I'd rather be weary, but courageous, than to be foolish.

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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> Yes you can but there is airframe refitment needed plus center of gravity changes significantly. If you want best bang for money - use Atar-9K.


Hi thanks for your reply so if let’s say PAF go for ATAR 9K is it a plug & play kind of attachment or one still need to do the other refinement beside what’s the ATAR specs as compare to the present engine of Mirages 
If possible for you to enlighten me further 
Thank you


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## Readerdefence

The Accountant said:


> Changing fighter aircraft is a complicated process. Not worth with the 50 years old airframes. Why u want to use mirrages when thunders r available ?


Hi thanks for your reply but if we go through the jf17 engine inventories those were like PAF got around 500 advance engines from russia at the time through China now if we go through the present jf17 inventory and let’s say number of burn out engines all in all must not be more than 200 or 250 odd engines will be still around like wise if PAF in future looking for more powerful Chinese engines for jf17 isn’t it a possibility to use these extra stock of Russian engines somewhere else & im still optimistic phasing out Mirages to be around coz of their load carrying capacity as compare to jf17 
Just a thought
Thank you


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## ziaulislam

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your reply but if we go through the jf17 engine inventories those were like PAF got around 500 advance engines from russia at the time through China now if we go through the present jf17 inventory and let’s say number of burn out engines all in all must not be more than 200 or 250 odd engines will be still around like wise if PAF in future looking for more powerful Chinese engines for jf17 isn’t it a possibility to use these extra stock of Russian engines somewhere else & im still optimistic phasing out Mirages to be around coz of their load carrying capacity as compare to jf17
> Just a thought
> Thank you


Doubt it..PAF will need those engines as spares


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## The Accountant

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your reply but if we go through the jf17 engine inventories those were like PAF got around 500 advance engines from russia at the time through China now if we go through the present jf17 inventory and let’s say number of burn out engines all in all must not be more than 200 or 250 odd engines will be still around like wise if PAF in future looking for more powerful Chinese engines for jf17 isn’t it a possibility to use these extra stock of Russian engines somewhere else & im still optimistic phasing out Mirages to be around coz of their load carrying capacity as compare to jf17
> Just a thought
> Thank you


First of all placing a new engine which itself will take 2 to 3 years at minimum.

Furthermore look at the capability gaps. Mirrage is more of a ground attack aircraft only with limited air to air combat capabilities. Thunder is an all rounder. Its not as much mature as mirrage in terms of use of SOW but if u want to invest time in development then why on mirrages which should be retired in 5 years? Better to invest this time in integrating those SOW weapons on thunder which will be working for us for atleast next 25 years.

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## Chak Bamu

JamD said:


> Development (and complete ownership) of the flight control system.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As @JamD said... India developed the FCS of the Tejas, which was a reason for delays in the Tejas program. That said, we didn't need to develop an FCS of our own, but we didn't learn as much as we needed to about the tech.
> 
> Saab didn't make the FCS of the Gripen, but it knows enough about it (and the tech) to integrate whatever it wants to the fighter. We need to get to at least that point for the JF-17 and our FGFA (especially if we opt for a consortium or off-the-shelf route).
> 
> I have a general point, but we have a culture of 'being up our butts' which we need to get out of... The naivete surrounding the Rafale, Tejas, S-400, etc, etc is comical, if not a little scary. I'd rather be weary, but courageous, than to be foolish.



I had guessed that the post was about FCS. The context made that easy enough. I do recall DRDO being made fun of for taking so long in developing a simple FCS for a delta design. But I could not imagine PAF being brought down by not having it. I still don't. But I hope that PAF engineers have not been sitting idle all this time.

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> I had guessed that the post was about FCS. The context made that easy enough. I do recall DRDO being made fun of for taking so long in developing a simple FCS for a delta design. But I could not imagine PAF being brought down by not having it. I still don't. But I hope that PAF engineers have not been sitting idle all this time.


I think the JFT was a means to get to the end line without the least hassle. Once the race is over, we can retrace our steps and slowly incorporate technology as we get a grasp of it. This is a novel way of doing things, and I think they have partly followed a hybrid of Chinese and Western pathways towards development. I remain uncertain as to how it will effect subsequent progress as we still lack critical technologies and skills. I suspect we will slowly incorporate these as we go along. But at least we have a product to show for it. The next project may still not be 100% ours but may well be 60-70% ours. I would love to see us taking over the building of the whole fuselage of the JFT block 3 to show progress.
A

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## araz

The Accountant said:


> First of all placing a new engine which itself will take 2 to 3 years at minimum.
> 
> Furthermore look at the capability gaps. Mirage is more of a ground attack aircraft only with limited air to air combat capabilities. Thunder is an all rounder. Its not as much mature as mirage in terms of use of SOW but if u want to invest time in development then why on mirages which should be retired in 5 years? Better to invest this time in integrating those SOW weapons on thunder which will be working for us for at least next 25 years.


You cannot change the flight characteristics of a plane just by changing the engine. A legacy fighter will remain a legacy fighter. What PAF has done is recognize the limitations of the platform as well as its strengths and utilized it for one role(land attack) at which it is very good. They have used it as a means to an end not the end. Trying to do too much with it will turn into a disaster. If we need a Delta we will incorporate the J10s once we have inducted block 3. The timelines for retirement of M3/5s is 2025 giving us plenty time to induct the block 3 and then reevaluating our needs. My own thought is Block 3 maybe the last 4th generation fighter we get, barring newer/MLUed F16s. If there is a 5th generation offering from China or our own engineers design and induct a new platform that will be the next induction in my humble opinion.

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## The Accountant

araz said:


> You cannot change the flight characteristics of a plane just by changing the engine. A legacy fighter will remain a legacy fighter. What PAF has done is recognize the limitations of the platform as well as its strengths and utilized it for one role(land attack) at which it is very good. They have used it as a means to an end not the end. Trying to do too much with it will turn into a disaster. If we need a Delta we will incorporate the J10s once we have inducted block 3. The timelines for retirement of M3/5s is 2025 giving us plenty time to induct the block 3 and then reevaluating our needs. My own thought is Block 3 maybe the last 4th generation fighter we get, barring newer/MLUed F16s. If there is a 5th generation offering from China or our own engineers design and induct a new platform that will be the next induction in my humble opinion.



I think there is still more room of 4th generation fighters specially due to very limited capacity to carry weapons by fifth generation. Atleast for close Air Support, Strike roles (other than deep strike) and Naval roles 4th generation still offer alot in comparison to fifth generation.

I feel either we will go for a block 4 of thunder with focus on its additional weight carrying capacity or buying more vipers.

No country in the world except for USA (even China) has planned for all 5 plus generation aircraft's yet.

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## ziaulislam

The Accountant said:


> I think there is still more room of 4th generation fighters specially due to very limited capacity to carry weapons by fifth generation. Atleast for close Air Support, Strike roles (other than deep strike) and Naval roles 4th generation still offer alot in comparison to fifth generation.
> 
> I feel either we will go for a block 4 of thunder with focus on its additional weight carrying capacity or buying more vipers.
> 
> No country in the world except for USA (even China) has planned for all 5 plus generation aircraft's yet.


With evolution of small diameter bombs and cluster ammunition and imporvement of SOW one would wonder whether jf-17 especially the new block with better rd93ma and it 8000lb isnt enough?

After all i doubt mirage 5 has any payload /range benefit on jf17 let alone after rd93ma inclusion

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Chak Bamu said:


> I had guessed that the post was about FCS. The context made that easy enough. I do recall DRDO being made fun of for taking so long in developing a simple FCS for a delta design. But I could not imagine PAF being brought down by not having it. I still don't. But I hope that PAF engineers have not been sitting idle all this time.


Unfortunately, without a CAG-like office of our own in Pakistan, actual mistakes can slide. Folks like us aren't given an actual say on these matters, or even the legislated right to question/account.

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## JamD

Chak Bamu said:


> I had guessed that the post was about FCS. The context made that easy enough. I do recall DRDO being made fun of for taking so long in developing a simple FCS for a delta design. But I could not imagine PAF being brought down by not having it. I still don't. But I hope that PAF engineers have not been sitting idle all this time.


In my opinion it took them so long because they were setting up the infrastructure along the way. The actual FCS is just a bunch of software, but there's an entire industry you need to be able to write your own FCS. You need extensive wind-tunnel setup (extremely well-instrumented), expertise in flight dynamics, expertise in (ruggedized) electronics, system architecture, list goes on. To India's credit, they now have all of these facilities/tech for their next project (whatever that may be). For us, however, we have giant holes in our knowledge base, especially since we're supposed to be embarking on Project Azm.

Obviously, we would not have had the JF-17 in service today had we taken the Indian route, but I disagree with the somewhat popular perception that we can develop a modern fighter BECAUSE we (partially) developed the JF-17. We have giant holes in our capability that will need to be eventually filled.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> In my opinion it took them so long because they were setting up the infrastructure along the way. The actual FCS is just a bunch of software, but there's an entire industry you need to be able to write your own FCS. You need extensive wind-tunnel setup (extremely well-instrumented), expertise in flight dynamics, expertise in (ruggedized) electronics, system architecture, list goes on. To India's credit, they now have all of these facilities/tech for their next project (whatever that may be). For us, however, we have giant holes in our knowledge base, especially since we're supposed to be embarking on Project Azm.
> 
> Obviously, we would not have had the JF-17 in service today had we taken the Indian route, but I disagree with the somewhat popular perception that we can develop a modern fighter BECAUSE we (partially) developed the JF-17. We have giant holes in our capability that will need to be eventually filled.


That's why the right approach is to:

(1) Settle our FGFA needs by signing onto the FC-31 as-is. No customization. Just take the fighter as-is from China with a domestic support base to keep them flying. Ideally, we'd pair it with a massive offset package that benefits our private sector, especially small and medium-sized businesses (boost employment, exports, etc).

(2) Defer all development work to an indigenous technology demonstrator untied to any near-term requirement. We use this project to develop our own FCS, composites, radar tech, EW/ECM, etc. Once we're comfortable, we develop a 6th-gen fighter on our own.

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## Materialistic

JamD said:


> In my opinion it took them so long because they were setting up the infrastructure along the way. The actual FCS is just a bunch of software, but there's an entire industry you need to be able to write your own FCS. You need extensive wind-tunnel setup (extremely well-instrumented), expertise in flight dynamics, expertise in (ruggedized) electronics, system architecture, list goes on. To India's credit, they now have all of these facilities/tech for their next project (whatever that may be). For us, however, we have giant holes in our knowledge base, especially since we're supposed to be embarking on Project Azm.
> 
> Obviously, we would not have had the JF-17 in service today had we taken the Indian route, but I disagree with the somewhat popular perception that we can develop a modern fighter BECAUSE we (partially) developed the JF-17. We have giant holes in our capability that will need to be eventually filled.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's why the right approach is to:
> 
> (1) Settle our FGFA needs by signing onto the FC-31 as-is. No customization. Just take the fighter as-is from China with a domestic support base to keep them flying. Ideally, we'd pair it with a massive offset package that benefits our private sector, especially small and medium-sized businesses (boost employment, exports, etc).
> 
> (2) Defer all development work to an indigenous technology demonstrator untied to any near-term requirement. We use this project to develop our own FCS, composites, radar tech, EW/ECM, etc. Once we're comfortable, we develop a 6th-gen fighter on our own.



Finally, someone who voiced this opinion otherwise this forum is full of posts which make one think like developing a 5th gen aircraft is peice of cake while in the same breath ppl mention how we lack skills and finances to evolve jf17 further than block 3. In layman's terms its like jumping off to PHD when you haven't even finished your bachelors yet.

I beleive instead of venturing into 5th gen we should simply buy few squadrons of FC31 off the shelf from China (if and when available). When countries like US, China and Russia are not fully relying on 5th gen and the true backbone of their fleet is going to be 4.5 gen then how come Pakistan go with a full focus on 5th (not to mention the associated price tag).

It would make sense for Pakistan to have thunders together with some decent medium weight 4.5gen aircraft (or thunders evolved further into a medium weight category in parallel with the likes of f16Vs/j10C, strike varients, indigenously developed mission pods, avoinics etc) to compliment the limited fleet of 5th gen forming the spear head.

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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your reply so if let’s say PAF go for ATAR 9K is it a plug & play kind of attachment or one still need to do the other refinement beside what’s the ATAR specs as compare to the present engine of Mirages
> If possible for you to enlighten me further
> Thank you


Atar - 9K is plug play very little mods required. but the improvement overall is very good. 

For cheetah - the consideration was to get a better engine but we had to scale back and go with 9K vs 9C; licence for 9k was already in place locally so it was easy; plus minimal effort as SAAF F1AZ were already on 9K.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Materialistic said:


> Finally, someone who voiced this opinion otherwise this forum is full of posts which make one think like developing a 5th gen aircraft is peice of cake while in the same breath ppl mention how we lack skills and finances to evolve jf17 further than block 3. In layman's terms its like jumping off to PHD when you haven't even finished your bachelors yet.
> 
> *I beleive instead of venturing into 5th gen we should simply buy few squadrons of FC31 off the shelf from China (if and when available). When countries like US, China and Russia are not fully relying on 5th gen and the true backbone of their fleet is going to be 4.5 gen then how come Pakistan go with a full focus on 5th (not to mention the associated price tag).*
> 
> It would make sense for Pakistan to have thunders together with some decent medium weight 4.5gen aircraft (or thunders evolved further into a medium weight category in parallel with the likes of f16Vs/j10C, strike varients, indigenously developed mission pods, avoinics etc) to compliment the limited fleet of 5th gen forming the spear head.


tbh, I think the PAF should fully jump into the FC-31. Basically, go for 120+ aircraft to ensure we have as modern and capable a fleet as possible (alongside JF-17B/Block-III and F-16 Block-52+). In turn, we skip interim 4.5-gen fighters (outside of the JF-17). Other than that, we start a demonstrator project and use it to develop UCAVs and, eventually, a manned next-gen fighter (2030s/2040s).

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## Armchair

I think the Mirage's advantage over the JF-17 may be:

1. It's pure delta wing that gives excellent low level strike performance
2. Same wings allow an efficient way to carry very heavy loads over a long distance
3. Extreme low cost of maintaining this fleet that requires minimal expenditure

The question of Mirage replacement is not that JF-17 can have similar performance as the Mirage. The real question is - how effective a platform is in overcoming the Indian IADS during a strike mission. I think the Mirage and the JF-17 will both have difficulty with this mission given changing circumstances in the Indian IADS. 

Fundamentally, you need either stealth or speed or both to help up the game against an improved IADS.

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## ziaulislam

Materialistic said:


> Finally, someone who voiced this opinion otherwise this forum is full of posts which make one think like developing a 5th gen aircraft is peice of cake while in the same breath ppl mention how we lack skills and finances to evolve jf17 further than block 3. In layman's terms its like jumping off to PHD when you haven't even finished your bachelors yet.
> 
> I beleive instead of venturing into 5th gen we should simply buy few squadrons of FC31 off the shelf from China (if and when available). When countries like US, China and Russia are not fully relying on 5th gen and the true backbone of their fleet is going to be 4.5 gen then how come Pakistan go with a full focus on 5th (not to mention the associated price tag).
> 
> It would make sense for Pakistan to have thunders together with some decent medium weight 4.5gen aircraft (or thunders evolved further into a medium weight category in parallel with the likes of f16Vs/j10C, strike varients, indigenously developed mission pods, avoinics etc) to compliment the limited fleet of 5th gen forming the spear head.


Another option would be to look for JV with country who really needs a patner..

The only country that is in that position is turkey 

They have the basic expertise and support from western allies(especially england) to get it done

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh, I think the PAF should fully jump into the FC-31. Basically, go for 120+ aircraft to ensure we have as modern and capable a fleet as possible (alongside JF-17B/Block-III and F-16 Block-52+). In turn, we skip interim 4.5-gen fighters (outside of the JF-17). Other than that, we start a demonstrator project and use it to develop UCAVs and, eventually, a manned next-gen fighter (2030s/2040s).


I dont know why but PAF has not gone for J31 AT ALL. Initially we thought it was a case of the Chinese expecting us to fork out money to co fund the development. But even then we have not seen much progress on J31 so fat. Sure there are rumors that a new naval variant is on the way but in reality nothing much has gone on. So one wonders what actually is going on with that project. Hold up on an appropriate engine:seems to be a big hurdle butthere is something more tuan that. The second big question .ark is whether the Chinese will actually allow you offsets on their pet projects but rather that you remained a client state.
With Turkey again we see a lot of showmanship but there are big question marks over engines and where it is going to source them from. The two contenders are EU and US both of which would be reluctant to have their products being ssold to Pakistan. So unless there is credible information on progress in the engine manufacturing sector Turkish projects are risky. So the next qnd most important question is where is Pakistan going to source its engines from.
A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> I dont know why but PAF has not gone for J31 AT ALL. Initially we thought it was a case of the Chinese expecting us to fork out money to co fund the development. But even then we have not seen much progress on J31 so fat. Sure there are rumors that a new naval variant is on the way but in reality nothing much has gone on. So one wonders what actually is going on with that project. Hold up on an appropriate engine:seems to be a big hurdle butthere is something more tuan that. The second big question .ark is whether the Chinese will actually allow you offsets on their pet projects but rather that you remained a client state.
> With Turkey again we see a lot of showmanship but there are big question marks over engines and where it is going to source them from. The two contenders are EU and US both of which would be reluctant to have their products being ssold to Pakistan. So unless there is credible information on progress in the engine manufacturing sector Turkish projects are risky. So the next qnd most important question is where is Pakistan going to source its engines from.
> A


i doubt england/RR will have an issue supplying engines to pakistan.
rest of technology turkey might be able to built by itself 

there is no other country, not china not anyone else who will share with you or do JV with you any more 

yes china will give you pretty cheap weapons

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## Readerdefence

ziaulislam said:


> Doubt it..PAF will need those engines as spares


Hi thanks for your reply it means PAF won’t be getting Chinese engines in near future 
Thank you


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## Readerdefence

The Accountant said:


> First of all placing a new engine which itself will take 2 to 3 years at minimum.
> 
> Furthermore look at the capability gaps. Mirrage is more of a ground attack aircraft only with limited air to air combat capabilities. Thunder is an all rounder. Its not as much mature as mirrage in terms of use of SOW but if u want to invest time in development then why on mirrages which should be retired in 5 years? Better to invest this time in integrating those SOW weapons on thunder which will be working for us for atleast next 25 years.


Hi thanks for your reply but I’m not suggesting a new engine was encouraging to utilise jf17 engines from stock bit as you have mentioned about the time line of retiring mirages im sure they will go beyond five years of time line I agree with you on part of customisation of jf17 for SOW weapons but at the moment you can see the progress yourself that it might take longer then 3/4 years to give full autonomy to jf17 whatever role mirages are doing at the moment 
As some senior posters are discussing about not inducting any new fighter in PAF I’m sure mirages will go extra miles beyond 5 years of timeline 
If we calculate roughly around 70/100 mirages if I’m not wrong or you can give some info on these numbers PAF can’t afford to have these out in 5 years or say 7 years 
I might be wrong here but PAC knows inside out of mirages more than jf17s 
So I’m not advocating about lingering with mirages but don’t have any other choice at the moment until unless a delta wing j10 which looks like not coming 
Thank you


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## The Accountant

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your reply but I’m not suggesting a new engine was encouraging to utilise jf17 engines from stock bit as you have mentioned about the time line of retiring mirages im sure they will go beyond five years of time line I agree with you on part of customisation of jf17 for SOW weapons but at the moment you can see the progress yourself that it might take longer then 3/4 years to give full autonomy to jf17 whatever role mirages are doing at the moment
> As some senior posters are discussing about not inducting any new fighter in PAF I’m sure mirages will go extra miles beyond 5 years of timeline
> If we calculate roughly around 70/100 mirages if I’m not wrong or you can give some info on these numbers PAF can’t afford to have these out in 5 years or say 7 years
> I might be wrong here but PAC knows inside out of mirages more than jf17s
> So I’m not advocating about lingering with mirages but don’t have any other choice at the moment until unless a delta wing j10 which looks like not coming
> Thank you



Brother, change in engine is a very complicated process and it will take time. It will take alot of resources of PAF just to integrate and in return what will we get ? 2 to 3 years of additional life? Why dont we use same resources to expedite the integration of SOW and other weapons so that thunder can take role of mirages.

You need to understand in era of BVR mirage will be a sitting duck on its own. Even bison has more punch in air to air combat then mirages. Why putting life of our pilots in danger? 

Engines of thunder will give much more output in thunders than mirages. We have passed mirage upgaradation phase when we got thunder. Now any new development will be in thunders and vipers only. Mirages and F7 will be retired gradually. This is the most efficient way forward.

What I see that if we keep good relationship with USA, then F16s will go through same life cycle in PAF as mirage did. Alot of countries are going to retire F16s after getting F35s, tempest and other high end aircrafts. So if Pakistan move the right strings they can buy and upgrade them within PAF. Or even without upgrading, they can be converted from air superiority to work horse fighters of PAF while PAF can focus on 5th generation for air superiority and deep strike role.

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## Materialistic

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh, I think the PAF should fully jump into the FC-31. Basically, go for 120+ aircraft to ensure we have as modern and capable a fleet as possible (alongside JF-17B/Block-III and F-16 Block-52+). In turn, we skip interim 4.5-gen fighters (outside of the JF-17). Other than that, we start a demonstrator project and use it to develop UCAVs and, eventually, a manned next-gen fighter (2030s/2040s).



Agree, that approach would give us ample time to develop our in-house technologies without holding fleet modernization. Because naturally it will take time and hurdles/failures may be expected when we build a 5th gen jet for the first time all on our own!



ziaulislam said:


> Another option would be to look for JV with country who really needs a patner..
> 
> The only country that is in that position is turkey
> 
> They have the basic expertise and support from western allies(especially england) to get it done



I think doors for JV are pretty much closed for us now, because what I remember from the forum discussions it was hinted somewhere that Turkey has already shown us Red signal for TFX joint-venture. They may be looking for someone to fill in the technological and financial gaps while in our case we can't meet them in both even in case of thunder we are not manufacturing anything in house. Countries like S.Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia are ideal for Turkey to team up with. The only other option for us is China and that boat has already sailed too because China no longer needs us for Western experience related inputs, they are way ahead now in technology to find anything significant from our usage of western products and now we are more like a long-term customer who has no other place to shop.

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## Materialistic

ziaulislam said:


> i doubt england/RR will have an issue supplying engines to pakistan.



England may have a few reasons:


Risk of China getting its hand on those beautiful powerplants (where China is already struggling).
Pakistan getting a key component for its 5th Gen program which will annoy India and let me remind here: India was categorically mentioned in all their pro-brexit campaigns. Pro-Brexitiers wanted to walk away from EU to be able to secure more lucrative deals with China, India & US. It was one of key element in their argument.
Again on the other hand UK may face pressure from US as it plays against its major partner in the Pacific.

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## Yasser76

Materialistic said:


> England may have a few reasons:
> 
> 
> Risk of China getting its hand on those beautiful powerplants (where China is already struggling).
> Pakistan getting a key component for its 5th Gen program which will annoy India and let me remind here: India was categorically mentioned in all their pro-brexit campaigns. Pro-Brexitiers wanted to walk away from EU to be able to secure more lucrative deals with China, India & US. It was one of key element in their argument.
> Again on the other hand UK may face pressure from US as it plays against its major partner in the Pacific.



Actually a very recent Royal United Service Institute paper suggested the UK has many reasons for strategic cooperation with Pakistan, including tech in the defence sector.

https://rusi.org/commentary/imran-khan-pakistan-and-strategic-relevance-uk

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## ziaulislam

Materialistic said:


> England may have a few reasons:
> 
> 
> Risk of China getting its hand on those beautiful powerplants (where China is already struggling).
> Pakistan getting a key component for its 5th Gen program which will annoy India and let me remind here: India was categorically mentioned in all their pro-brexit campaigns. Pro-Brexitiers wanted to walk away from EU to be able to secure more lucrative deals with China, India & US. It was one of key element in their argument.
> Again on the other hand UK may face pressure from US as it plays against its major partner in the Pacific.


not, if turkey and pakistan combine are giving UK a big slice of money
you are forgetting that this will be potentially a lot of billions of dollars..
so far England is not under India influence only France and Germany are tough on us
in the past we have shown that we wont share tech with china..s that is never the issue..
issue is india..

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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/









__ https://www.facebook.com/





Parvaz hey Junoon movie about at oaf site or padg fb

At 43:00 jf vs mirage is discussed and the edge of jf over mirage 2000 which is better than paF mirage 3/5 

jf will replace mirages 2
Cheers


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## mingle

Yasser76 said:


> Actually a very recent Royal United Service Institute paper suggested the UK has many reasons for strategic cooperation with Pakistan, including tech in the defence sector.
> 
> https://rusi.org/commentary/imran-khan-pakistan-and-strategic-relevance-uk


But theior products are very expensive


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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> not, if turkey and pakistan combine are giving UK a big slice of money
> you are forgetting that this will be potentially a lot of billions of dollars..
> so far England is not under India influence only France and Germany are tough on us
> in the past we have shown that we wont share tech with china..s that is never the issue..
> issue is india..


UK is not under EU too they are separate entity

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## wulff

araz said:


> I dont know why but PAF has not gone for J31 AT ALL. Initially we thought it was a case of the Chinese expecting us to fork out money to co fund the development. But even then we have not seen much progress on J31 so fat. Sure there are rumors that a new naval variant is on the way but in reality nothing much has gone on. So one wonders what actually is going on with that project. Hold up on an appropriate engine:seems to be a big hurdle butthere is something more tuan that. The second big question .ark is whether the Chinese will actually allow you offsets on their pet projects but rather that you remained a client state.
> With Turkey again we see a lot of showmanship but there are big question marks over engines and where it is going to source them from. The two contenders are EU and US both of which would be reluctant to have their products being ssold to Pakistan. So unless there is credible information on progress in the engine manufacturing sector Turkish projects are risky. So the next qnd most important question is where is Pakistan going to source its engines from.
> A



The FC-31 not coming is a blessing in disguise. It's a half baked orphaned stealth design which even the Chinese airforce wont procure. If you buy the J-31 you run the risk of ending up with an aircraft that no other airforce may buy. That alone is a deal breaker.

What about its adaptation into PLAN's carrier based fighter, you say? Remember that FC-31 flew in October 2012, and it has been 9 years and we have yet to see the prototype of the naval stealth fighter. I think it is difficult to believe the Chinese navy will re-use a 'modified' 10 year old design which got rejected back then. There is every likelihood the naval stealth fighter (J-35?) will be a new clean sheet design, far superior to the FC-31. So better to wait for this airplane to show up, get inducted by the PLAN, and then try to procure it.

This means waiting for ~2025 or later. By then the picture with the Turkish TFX project will also be much more clear, and it is possible the Turks can offer a viable alternative.

I also think it is a mistake to try to indigenize/TOT either the TFX or the chinese plane. The domestic program (Azm) should be completely separate. A clean sheet program will allow complete freedom to choose subsystems and suppliers. A semi 5th generation (like KFX) low cost fighter that is affordable and can be procured in numbers, the same priorities that made the Thunder a success.

So yes, i'm suggesting two 5th gen programs within the next 15-20 years. Similar to how the F-16 Block 52 and JF-17 procurements happened.

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## Yasser76

mingle said:


> But theior products are very expensive



There will always be a problem, political will, expense etc. Yes, UK kit is high end but quality. Also the opportunity for joint ventures is there. UK is embarking on very ambitious Tempest Fighter programme, PAC can benefit from a lot of their design experience here. Only question is being sensitive to UK concerns about knowledge transfer to China

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## The Eagle

Non Mirage discussion may kindly be continued in relevant thread.

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## mshan44

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## mingle

mshan44 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Feel Rafiqi to me


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## Yasser76

This is Kamra.

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## Viper27

mshan44 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/



My God..it looks brand new. They've got some talented folks there in Kamra.

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## The Eagle

mingle said:


> Feel Rafiqi to me



It's been there since a while... Kamra

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## ghazi52

First touch..

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## FLIR

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 663714


its that REC POD?

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## Clairvoyant

FLIR said:


> its that REC POD?




It's a LORAP(Long Range Oblique Photography) pod,been phased out now.


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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## air marshal



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## Dazzler



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## mshan44



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## Chak Bamu

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 663978



Interesting placement for a flare dispenser, I presume?

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## mshan44



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## Akh1112

Chak Bamu said:


> Interesting placement for a flare dispenser, I presume?




Thats not a flare dispenser lol. Some mirage SQN have checkered tail art.

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## ghazi52



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## Readerdefence

air marshal said:


>


Hi any idea where it got its DEFA guns looks like only for bombing missions 
if possible to answer 
thank you

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## Akh1112

Readerdefence said:


> Hi any idea where it got its DEFA guns looks like only for bombing missions
> if possible to answer
> thank you



Just under the intakes. look at the recess

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## Chak Bamu

Akh1112 said:


> Thats not a flare dispenser lol. Some mirage SQN have checkered tail art.



Now that you tell me, it does look like a checkered pattern. But I swear my old eyes told me that it was something else. LOL....


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## ghazi52



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## Readerdefence

Akh1112 said:


> Just under the intakes. look at the recess


Hi thanks for your reply alas my bad still can’t figure it out if possible to circle it around if not not worries 
thank you


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## Akh1112

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your reply alas my bad still can’t figure it out if possible to circle it around if not not worries
> thank you

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## mingle

Akh1112 said:


> View attachment 665905


Guns


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## The Raven

It's remarkable how the PAF have managed to keep the Mirages looking so sleek and pristine after 50 years in service, a real testament to the skills at PAC and MRF. After the Viper, the Mirage is the second love of the PAF.

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## Marker

air marshal said:


>


Well Done Mr Zohaib Malik.
A snap shot worth keeping.
This is how PAF is maintaining its valuable inventory.
A proof of professionalism, skill, dedication and hard work of PAF engineering staff.


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## m52k85

air marshal said:


>


Ex- Australian Rose 1 bird of CCS. These were 2nd hand when bought in 1990, still look pristine.


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## m52k85

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 665010
> View attachment 665011


These I believe are the no. 8 Haider's birds. With their agave radars and exocet missiles tasked with sea born strikes. Bought new in 1979.


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## denel

Akh1112 said:


> View attachment 665905


cannons

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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your reply alas my bad still can’t figure it out if possible to circle it around if not not worries
> thank you


under each intake, that is where those cannons are recessed.

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## The Raven

I've often considered whether one of those Defra canons could have been removed and an LDP hardpoint installed in its place, which would have given the Mirage decent strike capability.

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## denel

The Raven said:


> I've often considered whether one of those Defra canons could have been removed and an LDP hardpoint installed in its place, which would have given the Mirage decent strike capability.


Yes those can easily be removed. We had done it for two M3 for very long range recce ops to reduce weight.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

m52k85 said:


> These I believe are the no. 8 Haider's birds. With their agave radars and exocet missiles tasked with sea born strikes. Bought new in 1979.


no way to externally differentiate the 5PA2 and 5PA3 unless you know the serial numbers

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## HawkEye27

Animation depicting a quite accurate launch of H-4 Weapon

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## Ali_Baba

The problem with the H-4 is that it still requires the host platform to guide the missile to target, meaning the time on target for the pilots is too high and therefore there is much greater risk than a true stand off platform.

The REK is fire and forget. H-4 is not.

If they could upgrade the targetting to be autonomous, then there is still value in the H-4, otherwise it is time to move on to other platform..

Given the miniaturization in modern electronics, it is a project that PAF and Pakistani industry could attempt to undertake, and in doing so, preserve weapon stockpiles of this platform..

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## Marker

Ali_Baba said:


> The problem with the H-4 is that it still requires the host platform to guide the missile to target, meaning the time on target for the pilots is too high and therefore there is much greater risk than a true stand off platform.
> 
> The REK is fire and forget. H-4 is not.
> 
> If they could upgrade the targetting to be autonomous, then there is still value in the H-4, otherwise it is time to move on to other platform..
> 
> Given the miniaturization in modern electronics, it is a project that PAF and Pakistani industry could attempt to undertake, and in doing so, preserve weapon stockpiles of this platform..


What if US stops GPS facility to Pakistan during escalation....
One of the viable solution to this problem is to use small drones as comm boosters connected on both sides, weapon and control centre (may be 1000 miles away)


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## HawkEye27

Ali_Baba said:


> The problem with the H-4 is that it still requires the host platform to guide the missile to target, meaning the time on target for the pilots is too high and therefore there is much greater risk than a true stand off platform.
> 
> The REK is fire and forget. H-4 is not.
> 
> If they could upgrade the targetting to be autonomous, then there is still value in the H-4, otherwise it is time to move on to other platform..
> 
> Given the miniaturization in modern electronics, it is a project that PAF and Pakistani industry could attempt to undertake, and in doing so, preserve weapon stockpiles of this platform..


 What if you don’t have accurate intelligence or latest satelitte data or they jam ur GPS


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## PakFactor

HawkEye27 said:


> What if you don’t have accurate intelligence or latest satelitte data or they jam ur GPS



Some weapons could be programmed with an inertial map to guide the weapons to its intended target.


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## Marker

PakFactor said:


> Some weapons could be programmed with an inertial map to guide the weapons to its intended target.


What if the target is a mobile platform......

We should have all type of weapon navigation and locking systems, use of weapons should based on live situation awareness.

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## denel

Marker said:


> What if the target is a mobile platform......
> 
> We should have all type of weapon navigation and locking systems, use of weapons should based on live situation awareness.


That is the beauty of H4 - you can continue to guide it at a far away distance via tv.

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## air marshal



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## TaimiKhan

Ali_Baba said:


> The problem with the H-4 is that it still requires the host platform to guide the missile to target, meaning the time on target for the pilots is too high and therefore there is much greater risk than a true stand off platform.
> 
> The REK is fire and forget. H-4 is not.
> 
> If they could upgrade the targetting to be autonomous, then there is still value in the H-4, otherwise it is time to move on to other platform..
> 
> Given the miniaturization in modern electronics, it is a project that PAF and Pakistani industry could attempt to undertake, and in doing so, preserve weapon stockpiles of this platform..


And what if the H4 can be guided from the aircraft by being 120-150 or nearly 200 km away from the target. 

Launch platform fires the missile, turns back, missiles flies to designated target and the controlling aircraft being 150 km away guides to extreme pin point accuracy. 

And what if the missile gets controlled from a ground based system, that would be nice.

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## mshan44



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## denel

TaimiKhan said:


> And what if the H4 can be guided from the aircraft by being 120-150 or nearly 200 km away from the target.
> 
> Launch platform fires the missile, turns back, missiles flies to designated target and the controlling aircraft being 150 km away guides to extreme pin point accuracy.
> 
> And what if the missile gets controlled from a ground based system, that would be nice.


Actually it can; there are a few parameters; it has been tested with over 200km but that is outer edge and not real world sit.

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## Marker

TaimiKhan said:


> And what if the H4 can be guided from the aircraft by being 120-150 or nearly 200 km away from the target.
> 
> Launch platform fires the missile, turns back, missiles flies to designated target and the controlling aircraft being 150 km away guides to extreme pin point accuracy.
> 
> And what if the missile gets controlled from a ground based system, that would be nice.


Max range of H-4 SOW after deployment is 120 km. After the deployment the aircraft must leave the place to avoid threat from ground and air.

However, the controlling aircraft should be in the vicinity of deployment area till the SOW reaches the target. The distance depend on terrain and weather condition.

In order to increase the comm range between controlling aircraft or even ground station we can introduce aerial comm signal boosters installed on drones. Hence we don't have to risk our precious aircraft and its pilot.

Please also appreciate that Pakistan do not own GPS and comm satellites and have to depend on US GPS facility. Considering the current geopolitical situation, there is a possibility that availability of this facility may be denied.

Therefore in absence of GPS facility, the best option will be to use drones to locate the targets and control the weapons deployed and home them to the designated targets with precision.


Ali_Baba said:


> The problem with the H-4 is that it still requires the host platform to guide the missile to target, meaning the time on target for the pilots is too high and therefore there is much greater risk than a true stand off platform.
> 
> The REK is fire and forget. H-4 is not.
> 
> If they could upgrade the targetting to be autonomous, then there is still value in the H-4, otherwise it is time to move on to other platform..
> 
> Given the miniaturization in modern electronics, it is a project that PAF and Pakistani industry could attempt to undertake, and in doing so, preserve weapon stockpiles of this platform..


REK is another option which depends on GPS/INS. Its max range after deployment is 50 to 60 km. Considering its range, this option is not safer than H-4 SOW.

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## imadul

araz said:


> I think the JFT was a means to get to the end line without the least hassle. Once the race is over, we can retrace our steps and slowly incorporate technology as we get a grasp of it. This is a novel way of doing things, and I think they have partly followed a hybrid of Chinese and Western pathways towards development. I remain uncertain as to how it will effect subsequent progress as we still lack critical technologies and skills. I suspect we will slowly incorporate these as we go along. But at least we have a product to show for it. The next project may still not be 100% ours but may well be 60-70% ours. I would love to see us taking over the building of the whole fuselage of the JFT block 3 to show progress.
> A


Even 58% of JFT by PAC is good enough progress. FCS and other high end avionics would still be difficult to produce bc of lack of r&d and economy of scale. Better to increase as much of airframe, wiring, integration. Turbofan is out of question for another 20 years even if some research has been started already. PAC /PAF policy is good to buy of the shelf components from wherever and jv with china and turkey.

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## imadul

Can someone pleae post me how many mirages III, V in service. No need to specify how many are ROSE, just generic numbers.
Wiki lists 88 mirage III and 90 mirage V, but their's can't be relied upon. Thanks

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## Imran Khan

imadul said:


> Can someone pleae post me how many mirages III, V in service. No need to specify how many are ROSE, just generic numbers.
> Wiki lists 88 mirage III and 90 mirage V, but their's can't be relied upon. Thanks


exact numbers of f-16 mirages adn f-7s are in PAF book and not open sir

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## imadul

Imran Khan said:


> exact numbers of f-16 mirages adn f-7s are in PAF book and not open sir


a ball park number will work .


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## Imran Khan

imadul said:


> a ball park number will work .


tbh we can guess only sir for f-16 for mirages only PAF knows . its very very hard to guess even


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

imadul said:


> Can someone pleae post me how many mirages III, V in service. No need to specify how many are ROSE, just generic numbers.
> Wiki lists 88 mirage III and 90 mirage V, but their's can't be relied upon. Thanks


"their's" you mean Flight Globals?
If you have free time on your hands you can make a somewhat accurate estimate using serial numbers and online database/transfer information etc.

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## imadul

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> "their's" you mean Flight Globals?
> If you have free time on your hands you can make a somewhat accurate estimate using serial numbers and online database/transfer information etc.


Their's mean wikipedia.
I was just looking for ball park figures. But no worries. It is not important. Thanks for guiding though. 
Happy Defense Day to All.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

imadul said:


> Their's mean wikipedia.
> I was just looking for ball park figures. But no worries. It is not important. Thanks for guiding though.
> Happy Defense Day to All.


I meant Wikipedia's source, at least for the PAF inventory is from Flight Global's World Air Forces 2020

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

imadul said:


> Their's mean wikipedia.
> I was just looking for ball park figures. But no worries. It is not important. Thanks for guiding though.
> Happy Defense Day to All.







__





PAFwallpapers Blog – Page 5 – …all about Pakistan Air Force!






web.archive.org




Here's a good article on it even tho it's from 2011.

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## Marker

imadul said:


> Can someone pleae post me how many mirages III, V in service. No need to specify how many are ROSE, just generic numbers.
> Wiki lists 88 mirage III and 90 mirage V, but their's can't be relied upon. Thanks


Following link will answer your need.
PAF Mirage III/V (New or Secondhand) Orders and Delivery/Transfer Datasheet

The SIPRI data does not cover the 2019 Egyptian Mirage 5 Horas deal (36 Mirage 5s)

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## Windjammer



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## imadul

Marker said:


> Following link will answer your need.
> PAF Mirage III/V (New or Secondhand) Orders and Delivery/Transfer Datasheet
> 
> The SIPRI data does not cover the 2019 Egyptian Mirage 5 Horas deal (36 Mirage 5s)


That's great, thanks a lot @Marker


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## imadul

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAFwallpapers Blog – Page 5 – …all about Pakistan Air Force!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> web.archive.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a good article on it even tho it's from 2011.


Thank you @CT-9914 "Snoop" 
And it has a nice article on JFT too.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 667566


FT-7 with LIFT Squadron markings in the back tho


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## Marker

Link Ex-RAAF Mirages in Pakistan Air Force Service



E*x-RAAF Mirage in PAF service* ​After their retirement from service in 1987/88 forty eight RAAF Mirages were flown to Woomera for storage. They were offered for sale for A$100 million. On 15th April 1990 a contract was signed with Pakistan for fifty aircraft including ground equipment, engines, drop tanks and spares. (Pakistan Air Force project Blue Flash-V) The figure reported here was A$36 million however a number of Pakistani sources state the figure was A$27 million with the payment spread over seven years at approx. A$3.5 million per year. The ground equipment and spares package has been described as "a virtual gift".
It should be mentioned that India was not at all happy with this deal and protested accordingly.

During October 1990 the Mirages were transported by road from Woomera to Whyalla. Two complete aircraft at RAAF Museum Point Cook (A3-13 and A3-84) were also transported as well as five incomplete examples from Darwin, Orchard Hills and Dubbo. In November 1990 they were shipped by sea from Whyalla to Karachi. From Karachi harbour they were transported on trailers to PAF Base Masroor. After some dismantling they were flown by C-130 Hercules to the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra. There at the Mirage Rebuild Factory it was discovered that these ex-RAAF Mirages were in far better condition than expected and some did not require a complete overhaul. A new 2P+ inspection was developed for the initial recovery of thirty three aircraft. Another twelve aircraft had the General Overhaul and were eventually bought into service, some fitted with zero timed wings sourced from South Africa.
Of the fifty complete ex-RAAF Mirages acquired forty five eventually entered PAF service (details below). The remaining five were used for spares.

Thirty two single seat aircraft were later upgraded to ROSE 1 (Retrofit of Strike Element) the last one completed in June 1998. This avionics upgrade included Sagem integrated navigation/attack system, multifunction display, HOTAS, HUD, and self protection systems (RWR, chaff and flares).
Further upgrades include Grifo-M radar and AIM-9L AAMs.
(Sources differ as to if 32 or 33 received the ROSE 1 upgrade. I believe that only 32 received the upgrade because one aircraft crashed before it could be upgraded).
The ROSE 1 Mirages (redesignated in PAF service as Mirage IIIEA) were allocated to No.7 Squadron (Bandits) at Masroor in 1996 and to the Combat Commanders School (CCS) at Mushaf in 2003

Seven dual seat aircraft (redesignated in PAF service as Mirage IIIDA) were allocated to No.22 Squadron OCU and No.5 Squadron (Falcons).
In June 2010 No.5 Squadron re-equipped with F-16s, (new build aircraft, not the aircraft that New Zealand was to buy which also went to Pakistan).
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot.

The PAF also acquired the RAAF Mirage Photo Reconnaissance equipment and four aircraft configured in this role served with No.5 Squadron (Falcons)

In 2004 and 2007 Pakistan acquired 50 Mirages and 150 sealed engines from Libya.
These aircraft were to be converted to components to extend the life of the PAF Mirage fleet including the ex-RAAF examples.
However as with the ex-RAAF many Libyan Mirages are flying again.

In 2009 the Mirage IIIEAs started to be equipped with an in-flight refuelling probe, 90-583 serving as the prototype. PAF acquired four Ilyushin Il-78P Midas tanker aircraft from Ukraine and plan to equip 30 Mirages for in-flight refuelling .
In 2016 the upgraded Mirage IIIEAs began flying with Ra'ad Air Launched Cruise Missiles which are believed to be capable of carrying a nuclear warhead
There have been many losses of PAF Mirages. The list isn't all that specific about which model was involved. Only two are confirmed as ex-RAAF with only one identified. There are probably others lost. (Indeed 90-610 ex-A3-110 was lost in March 2015 and has not yet been included on the list)
With the Pakistan being the world's largest current user of Mirages (200+ aircraft purchased from France, Australia, Lebanon, Spain and Libya), holding an extensive spare parts inventory and operating a dedicated Mirage Rebuild Factory the ex RAAF Dassault and GAF built Mirages look like they will still be flying well past their 50th birthdays. A PAF official said that a Mirage needs to undergo overhaul after every ten to twelve years or after every 1800 to 2400 flight hours. A Mirage is completely overhauled in about one year.
They are expected to remain in PAF service until replaced by the JF-17 Thunder in 5 to 10 years time
*SUMMARY*
50 complete aircraft exported by sea, (48 from Whyalla, South Australia and 2 from Geelong, Victoria)
40 single seat Mirage IIIO stored at Woomera
A3-2, -5, -6, -9, -10, -11, -12, -15, -17, -19, -21, -22, -23, -24, -25, -27, -31, -33, -34, -35,
-38, -39, -49, -53, -54, -56, -60, -62, -65, -68, -71, -73, -81, -83, -86, -87, -88, -93, -96, -99
8 dual seat Mirage IIID stored at Woomera
A3-101, -103, -104, -108, -110, -111, -112, -113. 7 into service, 1 used for spares.
Plus 2 complete single seat Mirage IIIO taken from RAAF Museum Point Cook A3-13, -84 where moved by road and then shipped by sea from Geelong, Victoria.

32 eventually upgraded to ROSE 1 standard, 1 crashed prior to ROSE 1 upgrade. 4 Photo Recon. conversions, 5 used for spares.
Also 5 incomplete aircraft/fuselages; A3-7 (Darwin), -48, -78 (Dubbo), -57, -91 (Orchard Hills)
*Pakistan Air Force serials.*
Single seat; 90-5xx, were xx is the last two digits of the RAAF serial.
(I have been informed some may have had 89-5xx but have seen no evidence of that myself)

Dual seat; 90-6xx were xx was the last two digits of the RAAF serial
(Not to be confused with the six dual seat Mirages with 8xx serials. These are ex-French Air Force IIIBEs. Their full PAF serial is 96-8xx were the xx is the last two digits of the construction number ie 96-860 is c/n 260, 96-875 is c/n 275 and so on.)
As can be appreciated PAF information is scarce and the following list is derived from publicly available information.
Any further information, corrections and comments are welcome.
Please contact us at question@adf-serials.com.au​​
*Pakistan
Serial*​*RAAF Serial*​*Aircraft Type*​*Aircraft History*​90-502​A3-2​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Our photo shows it initially retained its orange ARDU scheme with PAF serials applied
Repainted in camoflague​90-503​?​Mirage III​There is an unidentified Mirage III marked 503 as gate guard at Masroor Air Force Base
It cannot be A3-3 which remains at Fighter World Williamtown.​90-505​A3-5​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Current status unknown​90-506​A3-6​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
16/12/2009 was on a routine training mission when it crashed into Durrab Lake, Kalar Kahar in Chakwal district (Punjab Province) after developing a technical fault.
The pilot ejected safely and was rescued from the lake.​N/A​A3-7​Mirage IIIO​Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Current status unknown.​90-509​A3-9​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
26/07/2001 crashed into mountain at 4000ft near Hub River returning to base after a night training exercise.
Group Captain Ali Assad killed.​90-510​A3-10​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Noted in service with Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Equipped with in-flight refueling probe.
Believed to be in in service as 90-510.​90-511​A3-11​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Noted with Recce nose painted Green/Grey on at MRF Kamra 2001.
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Configured for Photo Reconnaissance. Uses a different type of Recon nose than that used by the RAAF
Believed to be in service as 90-511​90-512​A3-12​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Exercise Bright Star (Egypt) 10/2009
Participant in Exercise Indus Viper II against Turkish F-16s 03/2013
Believed to be in service as 90-512​90-513​A3-13​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Entered PAF service retaining RAAF camouflage scheme
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in in service as 90-513,​90-515​A3-15​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in in service as 90-515​90-517​A3-17​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Current status unknown​90-519​A3-19​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in in service as 90-519.​90-521​A3-21​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Current status unknown​90-522​A3-22​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Entered PAF service in camouflage scheme
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in in service as 90-522.​90-523​A3-23​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
7/04/2004 noted damaged at Masroor AB, Pakistan, stored and used for spares.​90-524​A3-24​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in in service as 90-524.​90-525​A3-25​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Equipped with in-flight refueling probe
Believed to be in service as 90-525​90-527​A3-27​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Participant in Exercise Indus Viper II against Turkish F-16s 03/2013
Believed to be in service as 90-527​90-531​A3-31​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Falcon Air Meet 2010 at Azraq Royal Jordanian Air Base.
Won bombing competition against aircraft from Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, and the U.S. Navy and Air Force.
Believed to be in service as 90-531​90-533​A3-33​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Initially retained the silver with red scallop RAAF 75 Squadron Mirage Retirement scheme
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Equipped with in-flight refuelling probe.
Believed to be in service as 90-533
 ​90-534​A3-34​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Current status unknown​90-535​A3-35​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Exercise Bright Star (Egypt) 10/2009
Believed to be in service as 90-535
 ​90-538​A3-38​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Exercise Bright Star (Egypt) 10/2009
Participant in Falcon Air Meet 2010 at Azraq Royal Jordanian Air Base.
Noted carrying Ra'ad Air Launched Cruise Missile 2016
Believed to be in service as 90-538​90-539​A3-39​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Current status unknown​N/A​A3-48​Mirage IIIO​Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Fuselage noted in the storage yard of the Pakistan Air Force Museum at PAF Faisal Air Base, Karachi​90-549​A3-49​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in service as 90-549​90-553​A3-53​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Exercise Indus Viper 2008
Believed to be in service as 90-553.​90-554​A3-54​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Participant in Exercise Indus Viper II against Turkish F-16s 03/2013
Believed to be in service as 90-554​90-556​A3-56​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Current status unknown​N/A​A3-57​Mirage IIIO​Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Fuselage hulk at Masroor Air Force Base​90-560​A3-60​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Entered PAF service retaining RAAF blue grey scheme
Received a pair of zero timed wings from South Africa (which meant camouflaged wings on a blue grey aircraft!)
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in service as 90-560​90-562​A3-62​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Participant in Exercise Indus Viper II against Turkish F-16s 03/2013
Equipped with in-flight refuelling probe
Believed to be in service as 90-562​90-565​A3-65​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Falcon Air Meet 2010 at Azraq Royal Jordanian Air Base.
Believed to be in service as 90-565​90-568​A3-68​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in service as 90-568​90-571​A3-71​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed in service as 90-571​90-573​A3-73​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed in service as 90-573​N/A​A3-78​Mirage IIIO​Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Fuselage only, noted on jacks at PAF's Mirage Repair Factory 2001.
Current status unknown​90-581​A3-81​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Configured for Photo Reconnaissance.
Believed to be in service as 90-581​90-583​A3-83​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
First PAF Mirage to be fitted with refueling probe in 2009
Believed in service as 90-583​90-584​A3-84​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
Participant in Exercise Falcon Talon 02/2009
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in service as 90-584​90-586​A3-86​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Participant in Exercise Bright Star (Egypt) 10/2009
Noted carrying Ra'ad Air Launched Cruise Missile 2016
Believed to be in service as 90-586​90-587​A3-87​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Configured for Photo Reconnaissance.
Believed to be in service as 90-587​90-588​A3-88​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
ROSE 1 upgrade
No.7 Squadron "Bandits"
Believed to be in service as 90-588​N/A​A3-91​Mirage IIIO​Incomplete aircraft delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Fuselage hulk at Masroor Air Force Base​90-593​A3-93​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Current status unknown.​90-596​A3-96​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Configured for Photo Reconnaissance.
Believed to be in service as 90-596​90-599​A3-99​Mirage IIIEA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Combat Commanders School (CCS)
Believed to be in service as 90-599
 ​90-601​A3-101​Mirage IIIDA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90.
Noted in service as 90-601
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot​90-603​A3-103​Mirage IIIDA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot​90-604​A3-104​Mirage IIIDA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Noted in service as 90-604
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot​90-608​A3-108​Mirage IIIDA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot​90-610​A3-110​Mirage IIIDA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Served with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot
Crashed 4/03/2015 near Dera Ismail Khan.
Lightning Strike given as possible cause of crash
Air Commodore Shafqat and Flight Lieutenant Sohaib killed​90-611​A3-111​Mirage IIIDA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot​90-612​A3-112​Mirage IIIDA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90 .
Our photo shows it initially retained its orange ARDU scheme with PAF serial 612 applied
Repainted in camouflage
Served with No.5 Squadron "Falcons"
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot​90-613​A3-113​Mirage IIIDA​Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90
Any surviving IIIDA serve with No.15 Squadron (Cobras) at PAF Base Rafiqui, Shorkot​


The Author of this page is Martin Edwards​

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## ghazi52



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## Marker

We as Pakistanis may have reservation on not too friendly policies of US government, but I should admit that the technical knowledge they impart to our technical staff was outstanding. Up to date Technical Orders, on-the job training, and step wise maintenance manuals including pre- and post maintenance procedures (Job Guides) were introduced while inducting US weapon systems and platforms in PAF. Even the training and operational base organization is at par US standards. During one of my visits to a certain USAF base, I found PAF bases were much better organized and our technical staff was much more competent. 

After induction of F-16s, technical manuals of all other non-US weapon systems were revised to ensure correct technical procedure be followed to accomplish various tasks. New Job Guides were prepared for each maintenance task.

Now I can see that PAF is improving day by day.

This is the proof of it. Proud of you PAF. Keep it up.


ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 669185

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## mshan44



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## ghazi52

This is the first batch of Mirage pilots led by the Squadron Commander, then Wg Cdr M M Alam. (Wg Cdr Middlecoat is not in the picture). 

Jan 1968. Mont-de-Marsan,* France.*

From left: Arif Manzoor, Farooq Umar, (Fr. pilot), MM Alam, (Fr. pilot), Hakimullah, RM Akhtar.


Ferry route:......Mont-de-Marsan, Istre (France), Brindisi (Italy), Murted.Ankara (Turkey), Teheran (Iran), Mauripur.Karachi, Sargodha.

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## Kabotar

Don't know if this was posted.

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## Reichmarshal

Marker said:


> We as Pakistanis may have reservation on not too friendly policies of US government, but I should admit that the technical knowledge they impart to our technical staff was outstanding. Up to date Technical Orders, on-the job training, and step wise maintenance manuals including pre- and post maintenance procedures (Job Guides) were introduced while inducting US weapon systems and platforms in PAF. Even the training and operational base organization is at par US standards. During one of my visits to a certain USAF base, I found PAF bases were much better organized and our technical staff was much more competent.
> 
> After induction of F-16s, technical manuals of all other non-US weapon systems were revised to ensure correct technical procedure be followed to accomplish various tasks. New Job Guides were prepared for each maintenance task.
> 
> Now I can see that PAF is improving day by day.
> 
> This is the proof of it. Proud of you PAF. Keep it up.



i would not give the credit to the yanks but actually the pomps who deserve all the actual credit. As they are the ones who built them from the ground up and the qualities they instilled in them are matchless.
the yanks were passed the baton down the line and built up on wt was presented to them. Mind u by that time PAF was already a battle hardened professional force and hence had great capabilites to absorb all the learning.

On the other hand all experiments by the yanks to build a foreign army have ended up in huge failure and utter embarresment. starting from viatnam to afg.

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## Marker

Mirage V will not be replaced by PAF in near future.

Having a service ceiling of 59000 ft, Mirage V become a formidable platform to launch air to surface/sea stand of weapons and cruise missiles from greater distance.

Due to this characteristic, range of weapon deployed may increase tremendously.

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## PakFactor

Marker said:


> Mirage V will not be replaced by PAF in near future.
> 
> Having a service ceiling of 59000 ft, Mirage V become a formidable platform to launch air to surface/sea stand of weapons and cruise missiles from greater distance.
> 
> Due to this characteristic, range of weapon deployed may increase tremendously.



If this plane is of critical importance as part of PAF strategy couldn’t PAF in tandem with China/Turkey designed and fielded a delta wing fighter to replace the aging mirage with better tech and stealth features etc?

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## Marker

PakFactor said:


> If this plane is of critical importance as part of PAF strategy couldn’t PAF in tandem with China/Turkey designed and fielded a delta wing fighter to replace the aging mirage with better tech and stealth features etc?


Let us wait for final outcomes due to Project AZM efforts.

May be an UAV capable of flying at very high altitude carrying single a SOW or long range cruise missile.

5th cum 6th generation air warfare will be interesting to watch.

UAVs operated by their own AIs, smaller drone copters, aerial refueling using drone refuelers, laser weapons, miniaturized EMP generators as warheads embedded in missiles and many many more. Sky is the limit.

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## PakFactor

Marker said:


> Let us wait for final outcomes due to Project AZM efforts.
> 
> May be an UAV capable of flying at very high altitude carrying single a SOW or long range cruise missile.
> 
> 5th cum 6th generation air warfare will be interesting to watch.
> 
> UAVs operated by their own AIs, smaller drone copters, aerial refueling using drone refuelers, laser weapons, miniaturized EMP generators as warheads embedded in missiles and many many more. Sky is the limit.



Only problem I don’t see as much progress from Pakistan Military Industrial Complex on those various weapon systems. Look at Turkey last 1-2 decades how it’s fielded new weapons UAVs, Missiles, SOMs etc. Our industry isn’t even Cold War standard with some basic manufacturing.

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## Marker

PakFactor said:


> Only problem I don’t see as much progress from Pakistan Military Industrial Complex on those various weapon systems. Look at Turkey last 1-2 decades how it’s fielded new weapons UAVs, Missiles, SOMs etc. Our industry isn’t even Cold War standard with some basic manufacturing.


There is progress but not *visible*.

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## ghazi52



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Force behind the Force. Salute to all technicians and ground crew for keeping them alive for more than five decades.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirage-5EF ROSE-II 96-741 Night Strike Eagles.

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## mshan44



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer



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## Yasser76

I can get tired of the constant pictures of F-16s and JF-17s. Somehow I can never tire of Mirage 3/5 pictures, never...

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## denel

PakFactor said:


> If this plane is of critical importance as part of PAF strategy couldn’t PAF in tandem with China/Turkey designed and fielded a delta wing fighter to replace the aging mirage with better tech and stealth features etc?


Correct... it goes back to discussion, there was a major missed opportunity to go down CHeetah path. A completely bird would have taken shape not to mention if F1's had been taken on as well.

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## Tom_Cruise

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 670766



Crikey, you can view all runway operations from those nearby apartments


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## Metal 0-1



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## khanasifm

Metal 0-1 said:


> View attachment 672377




So expect ROSE 1 mirages with radar rest all mirages carry aim-9p rear aspect only aams not sure of there are plans to decommission rear aspect aams anytime soon ?? 
As mirages do get data link feed so can use it to engage in all aspect ?

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## CrazyZ

Can these things be converted into unmanned drones? They have a great strike potential and PAC can keep the airframes up...not sure about the engines.

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## denel

CrazyZ said:


> Can these things be converted into unmanned drones? They have a great strike potential and PAC can keep the airframes up...not sure about the engines.


Why? You are still having a massive plane; there are far better alternatives.

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## CrazyZ

denel said:


> Why? You are still having a massive plane; there are far better alternatives.


Bigger payload.....with very high dash speed. Could be a loyal wing man for JF-17 in A to A engagements.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Formation flying over the clouds .*




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1880280418786422

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## nomi007

Mirage 3 and Mirage 5, check the different noses

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## Cookie Monster

Ali_Baba said:


> The problem with the H-4 is that it still requires the host platform to guide the missile to target, meaning the time on target for the pilots is too high and therefore there is much greater risk than a true stand off platform.
> 
> The REK is fire and forget. H-4 is not.
> 
> If they could upgrade the targetting to be autonomous, then there is still value in the H-4, otherwise it is time to move on to other platform..
> 
> Given the miniaturization in modern electronics, it is a project that PAF and Pakistani industry could attempt to undertake, and in doing so, preserve weapon stockpiles of this platform..


Manual guidance can still have its uses under various circumstances. Ur point would be valid if all of Pak's stand off weapons required manual guidance...however that's not the case. Pak has both...that gives flexibility to use either depending on the circumstances.


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## Marker

CrazyZ said:


> Can these things be converted into unmanned drones? They have a great strike potential and PAC can keep the airframes up...not sure about the engines.


A possibility.
Obvious mods will be:
1. Modification in flight control - fly by wire system.
2. Modification in weapon delivery system.
3. Enhancement in fuel storage capacity.
4. Enhancement in weapon storage capacity. 
and many more.

A drone which can fly 59000 ft above sea level and speed +2.0 mach, carrying 2500 kg weapon load and combat range more than 1500 km.

But this can be possible once PAF start considering to replace these aircraft and project Azm start giving some results.

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## Armchair

Landing will be a big issue for drone conversion. Mirages are difficult to land.
I think the idea of a loyal wingman though, is a good one. There are many possibilities for a futuristic composite squadron structure:

1. Squadron size could be "reduced" to 16 aircraft per squadron, with 4 attached unmanned loyal wingmen added. These could be relatively simple UCAVs that can fly at mach 0.7 - 0.9 and have 5 pylons. For a2a that could be 4x BVR and 1x WVR.
2. of the 16 aircraft, 4 could be Growler types, with heavily packed EW systems. This could create a flight of say, 2x JF-17, 1x drone, 1x JF-17EW. The combined punch of it would be far greater than the sum of parts.

The drone could be used, for instance - a JF-17 could fire BVRs, not only from its own pylons but from the pylons of the UCAV. The UCAV could also be sent forward to break into the enemy aircraft's NEZ, while the JF-17 stays at a safe distance. A bit like setting off your hunting dogs, while fox hunting, and as the "fox" engages your dogs, you just pick them off from a distance.

I personally don't think the Mirages should be retired at all. I think they should be held in "semi-active" duty. Create a group of officers who just retired, who want to stay as "part timers". They will continue to serve in this capacity for an additional 4 years, and be assigned Mirages. Instead of the 100 - 200 hours flown every year to stay in top flying shape, they will be flying simulators 80x hours and fly the actual mirages 30x hours a year.

This is how France attempted to decrease the cost of operations at one point, due to budget issues. It would allow the PAF to hold on to the Mirages for a very, very, long time.

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## denel

CrazyZ said:


> Bigger payload.....with very high dash speed. Could be a loyal wing man for JF-17 in A to A engagements.


Nope - poor when compared to redesigned planes.

these need to be put into museams or just flying model.

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## Marker

Armchair said:


> Landing will be a big issue for drone conversion. Mirages are difficult to land.
> I think the idea of a loyal wingman though, is a good one. There are many possibilities for a futuristic composite squadron structure:
> 
> 1. Squadron size could be "reduced" to 16 aircraft per squadron, with 4 attached unmanned loyal wingmen added. These could be relatively simple UCAVs that can fly at mach 0.7 - 0.9 and have 5 pylons. For a2a that could be 4x BVR and 1x WVR.
> 2. of the 16 aircraft, 4 could be Growler types, with heavily packed EW systems. This could create a flight of say, 2x JF-17, 1x drone, 1x JF-17EW. The combined punch of it would be far greater than the sum of parts.
> 
> The drone could be used, for instance - a JF-17 could fire BVRs, not only from its own pylons but from the pylons of the UCAV. The UCAV could also be sent forward to break into the enemy aircraft's NEZ, while the JF-17 stays at a safe distance. A bit like setting off your hunting dogs, while fox hunting, and as the "fox" engages your dogs, you just pick them off from a distance.
> 
> I personally don't think the Mirages should be retired at all. I think they should be held in "semi-active" duty. Create a group of officers who just retired, who want to stay as "part timers". They will continue to serve in this capacity for an additional 4 years, and be assigned Mirages. Instead of the 100 - 200 hours flown every year to stay in top flying shape, they will be flying simulators 80x hours and fly the actual mirages 30x hours a year.
> 
> This is how France attempted to decrease the cost of operations at one point, due to budget issues. It would allow the PAF to hold on to the Mirages for a very, very, long time.


*Mirages are difficult to land.* For in-experienced pilots may be. But for skilled Mirage drone operator, I do not agree. The drone Mirages may have fly by wire systems installed, hence easy to control.

It is better for PAF pilots to switch to more advance and safer aerial weapon systems, instead sticking to Mirages as manned strike fighters. 

Since PAF is only AF holding a large inventory of Mirages 3s and 5s and its spares along with engines and possess maintenance and overhauling facilities, turning these into drones will be next viable use.

This way, without investing a lot, PAF will have 6th generation aerial domination capability.


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## Windjammer

Low Flying Delta.

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## syed_yusuf

We all are convinced that PAF ops need a delta fighter, just wondering why paf did not invest in this technology along with jft. Like paf could have used SA experience and JFT evolution to build a new delta fighter in class of mirage 2000 with modern avionics and engine that could have served paf for long time. Just wondering...

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## jupiter2007

syed_yusuf said:


> We all are convinced that PAF ops need a delta fighter, just wondering why paf did not invest in this technology along with jft. Like paf could have used SA experience and JFT evolution to build a new delta fighter in class of mirage 2000 with modern avionics and engine that could have served paf for long time. Just wondering...



That was my question 20 years ago.


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## SQ8

syed_yusuf said:


> We all are convinced that PAF ops need a
> *Delta fighter,* just wondering why paf did not invest in this technology along with jft. Like paf could have used SA experience and JFT evolution to build a new delta fighter in class of mirage 2000 with modern avionics and engine that could have served paf for long time. Just wondering...



wrong way to approach the problem -PAF did/does not want a delta winged fighter.
PAF wants a strike aircraft capable of certain performance specifications which ANY fighter could meet whether it has a delta or cropped delta or lenticular wing ; those requirements are what need fulfillment.

Stop looking at what the PAF wants, look at what is the problem the PAF is trying to solve.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> wrong way to approach the problem -PAF did/does not want a delta winged fighter.
> PAF wants a strike aircraft capable of certain performance specifications which ANY fighter could meet whether it has a delta or cropped delta or lenticular wing ; those requirements are what need fulfillment.
> 
> Stop looking at what the PAF wants, look at what is the problem the PAF is trying to solve.


The very first true strike platform the PAF wanted was the A-7. The US had toyed with the idea of selling us those, but withdrew because we weren't budging from the nuclear program. This is despite the fact that we were on the verge of inducting ballistic missiles anyways. It goes to show that an air strike platform is still a very valuable asset, and a very difficult one to get (forcing us to basically foot its development ourselves).

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## baqai

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The very first true strike platform the PAF wanted was the A-7. The US had toyed with the idea of selling us those, but withdrew because we weren't budging from the nuclear program. This is despite the fact that we were on the verge of inducting ballistic missiles anyways. It goes to show that an air strike platform is still a very valuable asset, and a very difficult one to get (forcing us to basically foot its development ourselves).



i think we were always assumed to be an easy nut to chew, bend the arms and get their way seems to be the ever lasting foreign policy of America towards us. All those sanctions were blessing in disguise if you ask me.

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## mshan44



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## North Star

Somethings different about the nose of this bandits bird.

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## North Star

Low level high speed dash by Mirage V from No. 8 Haiders

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force conducted landing exercise of Fighter Jets on Lahore-Islamabad motorway today.

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## The Raven

North Star said:


> Somethings different about the nose of this bandits bird.



Recon bird.


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## R Wing

PakFactor said:


> Only problem I don’t see as much progress from Pakistan Military Industrial Complex on those various weapon systems. Look at Turkey last 1-2 decades how it’s fielded new weapons UAVs, Missiles, SOMs etc. Our industry isn’t even Cold War standard with some basic manufacturing.



Turkey has a much more sophisticated clearance process that allows brilliant individuals running private companies much better access to produce such things. 

In Pakistan, while we do have such companies, the defense establishment is a protected clique where outsiders with vastly better brains and knowledge (often through advanced study abroad or dual nationality due to time spent abroad) than military officers are viewed with suspicion. They are all potential agents rather than potential assets. If our clearance and surveillance infrastructure and modus operandi was a bit more modern, we would feel more comfortable with such brilliant individuals who can make a 1000x better contribution to our capabilities if given a better chance and more trust/support.

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## Windjammer

French pioneered attachment of Bombs to the Drop Tanks...Wonder if practice is still carried out on Mirages or why others never followed on it.

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## Yasser76

Windjammer said:


> French pioneered attachment of Bombs to the Drop Tanks...Wonder if practice is still carried out on Mirages or why others never followed on it.
> 
> View attachment 677761



I think in Pak tempretures this would of been too much of a load out for a Mirage, very heavy fit


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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> French pioneered attachment of Bombs to the Drop Tanks...Wonder if practice is still carried out on Mirages or why others never followed on it.
> 
> View attachment 677761


Yep PAF still practices this..

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## GriffinsRule

You can also ask why the French gave up on this approach in their later fighters, such as the F1 and Mirage 2000. 
I imagine, that while it was a novel feature back in the 60s, the cons out-weighted the pros and perhaps better aircraft designs and technology (precision munitions) made this approach redundant. I can imagine a safety concern with this approach as well. Imagine having to jettison the tanks for whatever reason/emergency over friendly territory along with live bombs attached! 
I think with small size of the fuel tanks also impedes the range as well as impacting the flight profile so some degree so not as useful in the modern scenario as fifty years ago.

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## Talon

GriffinsRule said:


> You can also ask why the French gave up on this approach in their later fighters, such as the F1 and Mirage 2000.
> I imagine, that while it was a novel feature back in the 60s, the cons out-weighted the pros and perhaps better aircraft designs and technology (precision munitions) made this approach redundant. I can imagine a safety concern with this approach as well. Imagine having to jettison the tanks for whatever reason/emergency over friendly territory along with live bombs attached!
> I think with small size of the fuel tanks also impedes the range as well as impacting the flight profile so some degree so not as useful in the modern scenario as fifty years ago.


You simply cannot reject such tactics by a mere statement of *not useful in modern scenario*

Fighter aviation is a very complicated subject and involves countless scenarios and approaches,this particular approach is still useful in a CAS mission where you got no or very few aerial or ground threats for example raid on enemy ground units *inside* friendly area.

You wont be using guided munitions in a On Call CAS mission or Search and Destroy mission.Such mission are more suitable for unguided bombs such as Mark bombs or simple cluster bombs.Not forgetting CAS is usually done at low level (not suitable for guided munitions) or via pop up attacks at close range (again,not suitable for guided bombs).So why not carry maximum number of bombs possible.

Also please do not compare PAF with Rich Air Forces,most of those dont even fly the vintage aircrafts we are flying.

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## Armchair

Hodor said:


> You simply cannot reject such tactics by a mere statement of *not useful in modern scenario*
> 
> Fighter aviation is a very complicated subject and involves countless scenarios and approaches,this particular approach is still useful in a CAS mission where you got no or very few aerial or ground threats for example raid on enemy ground units *inside* friendly area.
> 
> You wont be using guided munitions in a On Call CAS mission or Search and Destroy mission.Such mission are more suitable for unguided bombs such as Mark bombs or simple cluster bombs.Not forgetting CAS is usually done at low level (not suitable for guided munitions) or via pop up attacks at close range (again,not suitable for guided bombs).So why not carry maximum number of bombs possible.
> 
> Also please do not compare PAF with Rich Air Forces,most of those dont even fly the vintage aircrafts we are flying.



The standard strike profile during the Cold War was to fly low, pop up and attack, and then go low again. However, I am not sure if this is still true. Today we see aircraft attacking from a height with precision munition. 

I do feel that given the nature of the Pak-India scenario of a highly contested airspace, it would be meaningful to use the pop up tactics. If attacking IA formations, dropping dumb bombs would still be effective, as large formations are expected. Perhaps fuel-air bombs could be a way forward for Mirages, as well as cluster bombs and air delivered mines.


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## Windjammer

Apart from introducing bomb attachments on drop tanks, the French also created Sneb Rocket Pods with extension that contained fuel or acted as drop tanks.

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## Clairvoyant

Windjammer said:


> Apart from introducing bomb attachments on drop tanks, the French also created Sneb Rocket Pods with extension that contained fuel or acted as drop tanks.
> 
> View attachment 678120




That's the JL.100 drop tank which had 268 Liters fuel along with SNEB 18×68 mm rockets, it's not used anymore as used to cause a lot of drag.

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## Yasser76

One thing I love about the French is their penchant for simple, useful yet very elegant design. You can see this in much of their equipment like Rafale cockpit, Scorpene sub, Mirage 3 etc....


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## denel

Yasser76 said:


> One thing I love about the French is their penchant for simple, useful yet very elegant design. You can see this in much of their equipment like Rafale cockpit, Scorpene sub, Mirage 3 etc....


They used to make good equipment - they still do in some core areas; i would stay away from their land systems. problematic and very high failure rates.

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## Yasser76

denel said:


> They used to make good equipment - they still do in some core areas; i would stay away from their land systems. problematic and very high failure rates.



Yes, agree on that front, no real world beating equipment when it comes to land systems


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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> They used to make good equipment - they still do in some core areas; i would stay away from their land systems. problematic and very high failure rates.


I read online that SA wanted some micro turbon's from france but they were denied on some baloney conditions. But once SA made their own then all of a sudden they came offering their nano turbo's. I found that quite amusing.


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## ghazi52

Egypt October 16 – PAF Mirage fighter jets lined up at an operational Air Base to participate in Exercise, Bright Star 2009.

Bright Star '10 took place in October 2009 and included a strategic airborne jump of more than 300 soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division partnering with Egyptian, German, Kuwaiti, and Pakistani paratroopers. Also, more than 1,000 US Marines from the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit rolled onto El Alamein Beach by amphibious landing with their Bright Star counterparts.

Also more non-traditional training took place during the operation and included a combined computer aided command post exercise introducing partnering soldiers to each other's equipment and updated tactics, thereby developing a better coalition contingency environment.

Courtesy - Associated Press Of Pakistan

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## Windjammer



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## Yasser76

Never stops looking deadly....


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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 679542


That is a model, nicely done though.

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## mshan44



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## ghazi52

Mirage VPAIII

© Murtaza Qamar

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## air marshal



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Resting beauty .

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## Scorpiooo

Pakistani Mirage ..

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## Scorpiooo



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## Deltadart

Does anyone have any pics of all of the different camouflage schemes employed by the mirages since their arrival in pakistan?

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## Incog_nito

I think Swiss Mirages are available that can be bought easily 
Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs are the premium strike package of PAF.

PAF should upgrade all of them to a standard where they all have the air-refueling capabilities and be able to carry out night strike missions easily.

Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs have the capability to strike in India and especially on the Western side of Pakistan. As tensions are escalating on both fronts, so keeping them ready is the best and the only option for PAF.

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## Scorpiooo

Incog_nito said:


> I think Swiss Mirages are available that can be bought easily
> Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs are the premium strike package of PAF.
> 
> PAF should upgrade all of them to a standard where they all have the air-refueling capabilities and be able to carry out night strike missions easily.
> 
> Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs have the capability to strike in India and especially on the Western side of Pakistan. As tensions are escalating on both fronts, so keeping them ready is the best and the only option for PAF.


Each Mirage have gone through overhauls multiple times now. They have served us more then there capabilities of frames life. Our pilots are our asset and sons of nation. .. so time to phase them out slowly arrived

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Deltadart said:


> Does anyone have any pics of all of the different camouflage schemes employed by the mirages since their arrival in pakistan?



At least one Mirage had (pre delivery?) the classic steel grey/red scheme with PAF markings, can't seem to find the picture right now.

Mirage IIIEP, IIIDP, IIIEP and later Mirage 5s were delivered in this standard two-tone green/grey above and sky blue below.





















Later Mirage 5 ROSE 2, ROSE 3 and ex-LARAF Mirage 5s also got this scheme.








ex-RAAF Mirages were delivered, and served for a time, in their original paint schemes before being upgraded to ROSE I.









Some ex-RAAF airframes also got the grey/green/blue scheme for a short time.





Post ROSE I, the ex-RAAF Mirages adopted a low viz two-tone grey. Some Mirage IIIDPs and the ex-LAF Mirage IIIELs and IIIDLs also got this paint scheme.

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## Talon

Incog_nito said:


> I think Swiss Mirages are available that can be bought easily
> Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs are the premium strike package of PAF.
> 
> PAF should upgrade all of them to a standard where they all have the air-refueling capabilities and be able to carry out night strike missions easily.
> 
> Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs have the capability to strike in India and especially on the Western side of Pakistan. As tensions are escalating on both fronts, so keeping them ready is the best and the only option for PAF.


Egyptian Mirages were also available,the issue is permission from France

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## denel

Hodor said:


> Egyptian Mirages were also available,the issue is permission from France


There is no permission required from France.

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## mshan44



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## Akh1112

denel said:


> There is no permission required from France.




There is for re-export. Egyptian Mirages were modernized significantly, carrying modern French gear, i.e RC-400. 



Hodor said:


> Egyptian Mirages were also available,the issue is permission from France


Was given the greenlight from france after lobbying btw


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## Deltadart

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> At least one Mirage had (pre delivery?) the classic steel grey/red scheme with PAF markings, can't seem to find the picture right now.
> 
> Mirage IIIEP, IIIDP, IIIEP and later Mirage 5s were delivered in this standard two-tone green/grey above and sky blue below.
> View attachment 686949
> 
> View attachment 686970
> View attachment 686969
> 
> View attachment 686971
> 
> View attachment 686977
> 
> 
> Later Mirage 5 ROSE 2, ROSE 3 and ex-LARAF Mirage 5s also got this scheme.
> View attachment 686972
> View attachment 686973
> 
> 
> ex-RAAF Mirages were delivered, and served for a time, in their original paint schemes before being upgraded to ROSE I.
> View attachment 686979
> 
> View attachment 686952
> 
> 
> Some ex-RAAF airframes also got the grey/green/blue scheme for a short time.
> View attachment 686956
> 
> 
> Post ROSE I, the ex-RAAF Mirages adopted a low viz two-tone grey. Some Mirage IIIDPs and the ex-LAF Mirage IIIELs and IIIDLs also got this paint scheme.
> View attachment 686954
> 
> View attachment 686974
> View attachment 686975


Thank you

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## ARCH٤R

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Mirage IIIEP, IIIDP, IIIEP and later Mirage 5s were delivered in this standard two-tone green/grey above and sky blue below.


I believe they were made in early 1970s?



Akh1112 said:


> There is for re-export. Egyptian Mirages were modernized significantly, carrying modern French gear, i.e RC-400.
> 
> 
> Was given the greenlight from france after lobbying btw


I heard that Egypt was considering further upgrades but it’s now unlikely. The French are probably not going to oppose the deal. Can Pakistan overhaul it’s Mirage III/V engines?


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## Akh1112

ARCH٤R said:


> I believe they were made in early 1970s?
> 
> 
> I heard that Egypt was considering further upgrades but it’s now unlikely. The French are probably not going to oppose the deal. Can Pakistan overhaul it’s Mirage III/V engines?



You cant really upgrade them further, besides, they are far too old now to be economical to upgrade again. Yes, Pakistan can, Mirage Rebuild Factory does.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

ARCH٤R said:


> I believe they were made in early 1970s?


1967 for the IIIEP and first batches of IIIDP and IIIRP. 5PA and second batch of IIIDP in 1970. Second batch of IIIRP in 1975. 5PA2, 5PA3 and 5DPA2 in 1979.

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## mshan44



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## Deltadart

Incog_nito said:


> I think Swiss Mirages are available that can be bought easily
> Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs are the premium strike package of PAF.
> 
> PAF should upgrade all of them to a standard where they all have the air-refueling capabilities and be able to carry out night strike missions easily.
> 
> Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs have the capability to strike in India and especially on the Western side of Pakistan. As tensions are escalating on both fronts, so keeping them ready is the best and the only option for PAF.


My question to all those with contacts in the PAF is this, since we won't be parting with the mirages anytime soon. How come we have not picked up the Swiss mirages yet, perhaps to be put into active service, if they have any life left in them?

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## GriffinsRule

Deltadart said:


> My question to all those with contacts in the PAF is this, since we won't be parting with the mirages anytime soon. How come we have not picked up the Swiss mirages yet, perhaps to be put into active service, if they have any life left in them?


You answered it yourself...no life left. They were operational from 1964-2003.


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## airomerix



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## mingle

airomerix said:


> View attachment 688436
> View attachment 688437
> View attachment 688438
> View attachment 688439


Any update about new procurements?


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## Incog_nito

Deltadart said:


> My question to all those with contacts in the PAF is this, since we won't be parting with the mirages anytime soon. How come we have not picked up the Swiss mirages yet, perhaps to be put into active service, if they have any life left in them?


I think it will going to happen soon.

I'm sure PAF might be planning to give Mirages an upgrade package that will allow all of the mirages to launch Stand-Off weapons (H-2, H-4, H-6, Raad, and others) effectively with the help of PAC & some EU partners.


Hodor said:


> Egyptian Mirages were also available,the issue is permission from France



I guess the process has already started and some 30+ arrived and may be more arriving soon.

Let's see if PAF will be open to acquire M-2000s from Egypt & Qatar.


Scorpiooo said:


> Each Mirage have gone through overhauls multiple times now. They have served us more then there capabilities of frames life. Our pilots are our asset and sons of nation. .. so time to phase them out slowly arrived



Let's see if PAF can bring some new aircraft but it will take some time. I am sure PAF will use them as strike elements in the West & on Eastern borders soon.

Grippen E/F & EF-2000s are options along with Mirage-2000s from Egypt, Qatar, UAE, and may be some from South America that can be brought an upgraded to new standards.
*Mirage III & V operators:*









Dassault Mirage 5 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org













Dassault Mirage III - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





This could help PAF to keep the fleet up and running
*Mirage-2000 with Upgrades:*









Dassault Mirage 2000 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





I guess there are about approx. 450-500 Mirage-2000s still flying and PAF can easily start looking to acquire them in smaller numbers from friendly countries like:


Egypt
Qatar
Peru
Brazil
Greece (as they are already getting Rafaels)
Taiwan
UAE (if they opt for Rafaels)
France
*Specs:* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000#Specifications_(Mirage_2000)

6.3 Tons of Payload


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## Deltadart

airomerix said:


> View attachment 688436
> View attachment 688437
> View attachment 688438
> View attachment 688439


Thank you for this.


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## ziaulislam

Incog_nito said:


> I think Swiss Mirages are available that can be bought easily
> Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs are the premium strike package of PAF.
> 
> PAF should upgrade all of them to a standard where they all have the air-refueling capabilities and be able to carry out night strike missions easily.
> 
> Mirage IIIs & Mirage Vs have the capability to strike in India and especially on the Western side of Pakistan. As tensions are escalating on both fronts, so keeping them ready is the best and the only option for PAF.


i Think PAF have enough to keep going them till 2030
because we are reducing there numbers too slowly wit more JF-17s coming in

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## Talon

Incog_nito said:


> I guess the process has already started and some 30+ arrived and may be more arriving soon.


No such thing happened and will not happen... please stop guessing.

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## PDF

Incog_nito said:


> I think it will going to happen soon.
> 
> I'm sure PAF might be planning to give Mirages an upgrade package that will allow all of the mirages to launch Stand-Off weapons (H-2, H-4, H-6, Raad, and others) effectively with the help of PAC & some EU partners.
> 
> 
> I guess the process has already started and some 30+ arrived and may be more arriving soon.
> 
> Let's see if PAF will be open to acquire M-2000s from Egypt & Qatar.
> 
> 
> Let's see if PAF can bring some new aircraft but it will take some time. I am sure PAF will use them as strike elements in the West & on Eastern borders soon.
> 
> Grippen E/F & EF-2000s are options along with Mirage-2000s from Egypt, Qatar, UAE, and may be some from South America that can be brought an upgraded to new standards.
> *Mirage III & V operators:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Mirage 5 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Mirage III - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This could help PAF to keep the fleet up and running
> *Mirage-2000 with Upgrades:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Mirage 2000 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess there are about approx. 450-500 Mirage-2000s still flying and PAF can easily start looking to acquire them in smaller numbers from friendly countries like:
> 
> 
> Egypt
> Qatar
> Peru
> Brazil
> Greece (as they are already getting Rafaels)
> Taiwan
> UAE (if they opt for Rafaels)
> France
> *Specs:* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000#Specifications_(Mirage_2000)
> 
> 6.3 Tons of Payload


Mirage 2000 is flying with India. Even if we induct them, IAF will better PAF due to prior experience etc. PAF has planned to get rid of our Mirages within this decade. They have served us well and now are in the last stages of their usefulness.

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## Incog_nito

PDF said:


> Mirage 2000 is flying with India. Even if we induct them, IAF will better PAF due to prior experience etc. PAF has planned to get rid of our Mirages within this decade. They have served us well and now are in the last stages of their usefulness.



No one is better with Mirages. M-2000 is just an upgraded version.


Hodor said:


> No such thing happened and will not happen... please stop guessing.


How?


ziaulislam said:


> i Think PAF have enough to keep going them till 2030
> because we are reducing there numbers too slowly wit more JF-17s coming in




I think J-10s will be used for replacement.

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## Marker

If rumors about 100% airframe manufacturing facility for JF-17 shifted and available at PAC is correct than we may expect a twin engine, scaled up, semi stealth version of JF-17 Block 4.

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## Akh1112

Marker said:


> If rumors about 100% airframe manufacturing facility for JF-17 shifted and available at PAC is correct than we may expect a twin engine, scaled up, semi stealth version of JF-17 Block 4.




Its not correct, i have been asked this before and looked into it. PAC does NOT manufacture any more of the Airframe than it did before. There is also nothing to suggest this uprated JF-17 will be a thing. It is not as easy as it is being made out to be. Especially in the light of imminent procurement of a platform from abroad to take over the offensive BVR role.

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## ziaulislam

Incog_nito said:


> I think it will going to happen soon.
> 
> I'm sure PAF might be planning to give Mirages an upgrade package that will allow all of the mirages to launch Stand-Off weapons (H-2, H-4, H-6, Raad, and others) effectively with the help of PAC & some EU partners.
> 
> 
> I guess the process has already started and some 30+ arrived and may be more arriving soon.
> 
> Let's see if PAF will be open to acquire M-2000s from Egypt & Qatar.
> 
> 
> Let's see if PAF can bring some new aircraft but it will take some time. I am sure PAF will use them as strike elements in the West & on Eastern borders soon.
> 
> Grippen E/F & EF-2000s are options along with Mirage-2000s from Egypt, Qatar, UAE, and may be some from South America that can be brought an upgraded to new standards.
> *Mirage III & V operators:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Mirage 5 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Mirage III - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This could help PAF to keep the fleet up and running
> *Mirage-2000 with Upgrades:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Mirage 2000 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess there are about approx. 450-500 Mirage-2000s still flying and PAF can easily start looking to acquire them in smaller numbers from friendly countries like:
> 
> 
> Egypt
> Qatar
> Peru
> Brazil
> Greece (as they are already getting Rafaels)
> Taiwan
> UAE (if they opt for Rafaels)
> France
> *Specs:* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000#Specifications_(Mirage_2000)
> 
> 6.3 Tons of Payload


only if the french are ready to support them..

are they?
NO

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Half a century later i am still *HANDSOME *and* DEADLY. 




*

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## The Eagle

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Half a century later i am still *HANDSOME *and* DEADLY.
> View attachment 689753
> *



Its always me that such paint job seems like a soft/RAM coating being applied.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

The Eagle said:


> paint job seems like a soft/RAM coating being applied


You may be right, these are Night Strike Mirages.


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## The Eagle

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> You may be right, these are Night Strike Mirages.



Hats off to MRF for such a beautiful work.....not some ordinary paint job.

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## GriffinsRule

The Eagle said:


> Hats off to MRF for such a beautiful work.....not some ordinary paint job.
> 
> View attachment 689922
> 
> 
> View attachment 689923


First picture is of a model aircraft.

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## Nomad40

GriffinsRule said:


> First picture is of a model aircraft.


GOOD CATCH


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## White and Green with M/S

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> GOOD CATCH


What would be the replacement of our Mirages, we have 2 option J-10 or MIG-35, what your Choice???

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## The Eagle

GriffinsRule said:


> First picture is of a model aircraft.



My bad.... It has to be another picture taken when Mirage Eagle is rolling out if MRF. Good one.


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## air marshal



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## Clairvoyant

Came across this on a facebook page,not sure if it's been posted here before.
It's a Mirage IIIEO with Indian roundels which was used in one of the recent movies.




__ https://www.facebook.com/597888160371037/posts/1794279877398520

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## Ali_Baba

Clairvoyant said:


> Came across this on a facebook page,not sure if it's been posted here before.
> It's a Mirage IIIEO with Indian roundels which was used in one of the recent movies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/597888160371037/posts/1794279877398520
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 691791
> View attachment 691789




Fake dude. Look at the lack of curvurture on the roundel in the first picture on the engine cowlings......


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## Xone

when will Pakistan learn to innovate weapons systems for its own? having been reliant on foreign weapon systems practically handicapped you. Mirages were good once upon a time but now we need a modern updated state of the art weapons to negate enemy advantage or edge. Pakistan has to develop its own indigenous weapons incorporating the collective latest technological know-how.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Clairvoyant said:


> Came across this on a facebook page,not sure if it's been posted here before.
> It's a Mirage IIIEO with Indian roundels which was used in one of the recent movies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/597888160371037/posts/1794279877398520
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 691791
> View attachment 691789


Fake. The Mirages in the movie were CGI.


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## nomi007




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## Aamir Hussain

Clairvoyant said:


> Came across this on a facebook page,not sure if it's been posted here before.
> It's a Mirage IIIEO with Indian roundels which was used in one of the recent movies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/597888160371037/posts/1794279877398520
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 691791
> View attachment 691789


The IAF roundel does not curve as the camo behind it! Photo shopped.


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## Shabi1

Some food for thought promo of final variant of Kfir, proving versatility of the Mirage concept. These are old airframes but with almost new engines. 
I hope eventually we can spare a unit for modification and testbed as a unmanned delivery platform.

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## GriffinsRule

two piece canopy vs four pieces in the original mirages we have. It looks nice but prolly not worthwhile.


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## denel

Shabi1 said:


> Some food for thought promo of final variant of Kfir, proving versatility of the Mirage concept. These are old airframes but with almost new engines.
> I hope eventually we can spare a unit for modification and testbed as a unmanned delivery platform.


Clarify your narration on old airframes? Kfir was a new build not a Mirage airframe. A lot of very significant changes were required.


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## Shabi1

denel said:


> Clarify your narration on old airframes? Kfir was a new build not a Mirage airframe. A lot of very significant changes were required.


The Kfir is a aircraft based on Mirage 5 with Israeli avionics and GE J79 engine . Talking about Kfir Block-60, these are upgraded airframes from storage, not new builds.








Two air forces eyeing Block 60 Kfirs, says IAI


Israel Aerospace Industries is in "very advanced negotiations" with at least two air forces that want to purchase the company's upgraded Kfir fighter in its Block 60 configuration.




www.flightglobal.com




.
"
The Kfir Block 60 is the latest upgrade for the Israeli-made fighter, which has been flying now for 40 years. The variant is offered with a General Electric-designed J79 engine with zero hours after a total overhaul, and will need another one after 1,600 flight hours.

Elta Systems will supply its EL/M-2032 active electronically scanned array radar, with open architecture avionics to allow a customer to install other systems.


According to Elta, the new sensor will provide an all-aspect, look-down/shoot-down performance in air-to-air and air-to-ground missions, with the capability to simultaneously track up to 64 targets.

All of the ex-Israeli air force Kfirs that have been stored at one of the service's desert bases for several years are to be transferred to an IAI upgrade facility. "This line will be busy in the coming years," the IAI source says."


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## denel

Shabi1 said:


> The Kfir is a aircraft based on Mirage 5 with Israeli avionics and GE J79 engine . Talking about Kfir Block-60, these are upgraded airframes from storage, not new builds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two air forces eyeing Block 60 Kfirs, says IAI
> 
> 
> Israel Aerospace Industries is in "very advanced negotiations" with at least two air forces that want to purchase the company's upgraded Kfir fighter in its Block 60 configuration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.flightglobal.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> "
> The Kfir Block 60 is the latest upgrade for the Israeli-made fighter, which has been flying now for 40 years. The variant is offered with a General Electric-designed J79 engine with zero hours after a total overhaul, and will need another one after 1,600 flight hours.
> 
> Elta Systems will supply its EL/M-2032 active electronically scanned array radar, with open architecture avionics to allow a customer to install other systems.
> 
> 
> According to Elta, the new sensor will provide an all-aspect, look-down/shoot-down performance in air-to-air and air-to-ground missions, with the capability to simultaneously track up to 64 targets.
> 
> All of the ex-Israeli air force Kfirs that have been stored at one of the service's desert bases for several years are to be transferred to an IAI upgrade facility. "This line will be busy in the coming years," the IAI source says."


Friend, that is an incorrect statement - Just under 40% is based off original Nesher; Nesher was based off Mirage 5. When Kfir came into flight, there was a huge amount of re-design; major rework required for new flight control systems, airframe alloys etc.


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## Nomad40

White and Green with M/S said:


> What would be the replacement of our Mirages, we have 2 option J-10 or MIG-35, what your Choice???


I will tell you one thing and that is that the weapon system that is the PAF is using on the Mirage is solely dedicated to Mirage type air craft and I personally have not seen those Mirage employed weapons on any other PAF type.

The only proper way to replace the mirage is to take a look into those aircraft that have the ability to deploy those weapons effectively and by effective I mean all the physical and link parameters must be met.

Mirage in the PAF is used as a strike/attack aircraft (originally it was a high-speed interceptor) The options that you have given hence the Mig-35 and J-10 both cannot be a proper replacement for the Mirage.

Both types are medium weight multirole fighter aircraft one can say they can fit the role of the F-16.

Right now the replacement for PAF Mirage would be another Mirage of equal or advance type. Lookin into the future and focusing on all the parameters of the role that the Mirages plays would realistically give the PAF 2 options and those are the (one and only savior of the PAF JH-7  and the other option is to Play with Jf-17B …. what I suspect that the PAF will opt for the JF-17b as their deep strike, stand off attack aircraft.





*JF-17B*

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## Xone

JF-17B needs little more tinkering in shape of removal of the second seat and filling this space with fuel tank to free the two main hard points for fuel tanks. This will enhance thunder's capability to carry a heavy payload without effecting its ferry range. thus Thunder can perform strike role more efficaciously with the deployment of heavier missiles and bombs to a greater range deep inside the enemy territory. In this way, thunder can phase out marriages without loss of any mission capabilities of PAF. Rather it will free the human resources required for maintaining mirages.

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## Nomad40

Xone said:


> JF-17B needs little more tinkering in shape of removal of the second seat and filling this space with fuel tank to free the two main hard points for fuel tanks. This will enhance thunder's capability to carry a heavy payload without effecting its ferry range. thus Thunder can perform strike role more efficaciously with the deployment of heavier missiles and bombs to a greater range deep inside the enemy territory. In this way, thunder can phase out marriages without loss of any mission capabilities of PAF. Rather it will free the human resources required for maintaining mirages.


my god


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## GriffinsRule

Xone said:


> JF-17B needs little more tinkering in shape of removal of the second seat and filling this space with fuel tank to free the two main hard points for fuel tanks. This will enhance thunder's capability to carry a heavy payload without effecting its ferry range. thus Thunder can perform strike role more efficaciously with the deployment of heavier missiles and bombs to a greater range deep inside the enemy territory. In this way, thunder can phase out marriages without loss of any mission capabilities of PAF. Rather it will free the human resources required for maintaining mirages.


AKA the original JF-17?

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## Xone

GriffinsRule said:


> AKA the original JF-17?



I am not an aeronautical engineer. So pardon me in advance for my lack of knowledge about fighter planes. But let me give my opinion freely.
Single seater JF-17 has less internal fuel carrying capacity, so it has to carry 2 additional drop tanks for its max ferry range, Whereas JF-17B carries more fuel than single seater because of its larger dorsal spine. With the removal of the second seat and addition of another fuel tank will mitigate the need of additional fuel tanks.
. The hard points previously devoted for Drop tanks are now free to carry heavier load near to the center of main frame. It solves the problem of disturbance of the fighter equilibrium in case of firing one on side heavy missile and the scarcity of hard points for weapons.
The mirage can carry only one Ra'ad missile, but with this modification Thunder can carry 2 such missiles at side on hard points to greater range comparatively.

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## GriffinsRule

Xone said:


> I am not an aeronautical engineer. So pardon me in advance for my lack of knowledge about fighter planes. But let me give my opinion freely.
> Single seater JF-17 has less internal fuel carrying capacity, so it has to carry 2 additional drop tanks for its max ferry range, Whereas JF-17B carries more fuel than single seater because of its larger dorsal spine. With the removal of the second seat and addition of another fuel tank will mitigate the need of additional fuel tanks.
> . The hard points previously devoted for Drop tanks are now free to carry heavier load near to the center of main frame. It solves the problem of disturbance of the fighter equilibrium in case of firing one on side heavy missile and the scarcity of hard points for weapons.
> The mirage can carry only one Ra'ad missile, but with this modification Thunder can carry 2 such missiles at side on hard points to greater range comparatively.


Dorsal spine in B has no fuel but wirings and electronics that needed to be moved due to the second seat. Also doesn't have any additional fuel over the single seat version. Plenty of pics of B model showings what I described on the forum here

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## denel

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I will tell you one thing and that is that the weapon system that is the PAF is using on the Mirage is solely dedicated to Mirage type air craft and I personally have not seen those Mirage employed weapons on any other PAF type.
> 
> The only proper way to replace the mirage is to take a look into those aircraft that have the ability to deploy those weapons effectively and by effective I mean all the physical and link parameters must be met.
> 
> Mirage in the PAF is used as a strike/attack aircraft (originally it was a high-speed interceptor) The options that you have given hence the Mig-35 and J-10 both cannot be a proper replacement for the Mirage.
> 
> Both types are medium weight multirole fighter aircraft one can say they can fit the role of the F-16.
> 
> Right now the replacement for PAF Mirage would be another Mirage of equal or advance type. Lookin into the future and focusing on all the parameters of the role that the Mirages plays would realistically give the PAF 2 options and those are the (one and only savior of the PAF JH-7  and the other option is to Play with Jf-17B …. what I suspect that the PAF will opt for the JF-17b as their deep strike, stand off attack aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *JF-17B*


Correct; that would mean several changes either to the bird itself e.g. raise the stature or reduce the profile of the SOW. Further it is very possible to move H4s into JF-17Bs; we had it across on Buccaneers, Mirage 3 and F1s. No reason why it cannot be moved forward as the architecture is pretty flexible.

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## syed_yusuf

Xone said:


> I am not an aeronautical engineer. So pardon me in advance for my lack of knowledge about fighter planes. But let me give my opinion freely.
> Single seater JF-17 has less internal fuel carrying capacity, so it has to carry 2 additional drop tanks for its max ferry range, Whereas JF-17B carries more fuel than single seater because of its larger dorsal spine. With the removal of the second seat and addition of another fuel tank will mitigate the need of additional fuel tanks.
> . The hard points previously devoted for Drop tanks are now free to carry heavier load near to the center of main frame. It solves the problem of disturbance of the fighter equilibrium in case of firing one on side heavy missile and the scarcity of hard points for weapons.
> The mirage can carry only one Ra'ad missile, but with this modification Thunder can carry 2 such missiles at side on hard points to greater range comparatively.


Keeping the same air frame 2nd seat could be removed with additional fuel. Hence enhancing range with other minor mods jft blk4 strike thunder could be rolled out for PN and paf mirage replacement

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## Nomad40

denel said:


> Correct; that would mean several changes either to the bird itself e.g. raise the stature or reduce the profile of the SOW. Further it is very possible to move H4s into JF-17Bs; we had it across on Buccaneers, Mirage 3 and F1s. No reason why it cannot be moved forward as the architecture is pretty flexible.


Yes you are correct, I am confident that H-4 on Jf-17b will prove not a tedious task, If my memory serves me right the Jf-17 and mirage3/5 are very similar in takeoff weights (you would know more). Jf-17B is more of a striker for the PAF than a trainer.

Now the focal point for PAF mirages are SOW (solvable) and HATF Cruise missile HE/NE and that needs a proper structural change in both the arm and the air craft.

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## Talon

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Yes you are correct, I am confident that H-4 on Jf-17b will prove not a tedious task, If my memory serves me right the Jf-17 and mirage3/5 are very similar in takeoff weights (you would know more). Jf-17B is more of a striker for the PAF than a trainer.
> 
> Now the focal point for PAF mirages are SOW (solvable) and HATF Cruise missile HE/NE and that needs a proper structural change in both the arm and the air craft.


Agreed,even Mirage barely manages to carry H4 as its very close to the ground, currently its impossible to manage H4 on JF17,both will have to go through/going through upgraded versions to solve this problem

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## ziaulislam

Hodor said:


> Agreed,even Mirage barely manages to carry H4 as its very close to the ground, currently its impossible to manage H4 on JF17,both will have to go through/going through upgraded versions to solve this problem


H4 is old weapon
Time to dump it and move to advance weapons

Cant be stuck in the past
Look at raptor 3

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## Marker

ziaulislam said:


> H4 is old weapon
> Time to dump it and move to advance weapons
> 
> Cant be stuck in the past
> Look at raptor 3


H4 was inducted in 2003. How come it became obsolete in 17 years.

PAF successfully used H4 SOW during operation swift retort in Feb 2019 and achieved desirable outcomes.

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## GriffinsRule

Marker said:


> H4 was inducted in 2003. How come it became obsolete in 7 years.
> 
> PAF successfully used H4 SOW during operation swift retort in Feb 2019 and achieved desirable outcomes.


17 years? It will soldier on until the Mirages finally retire. Should not stop us in making compact versions of the same type of weapon for the Thunder


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## ziaulislam

Marker said:


> H4 was inducted in 2003. How come it became obsolete in 17 years.
> 
> PAF successfully used H4 SOW during operation swift retort in Feb 2019 and achieved desirable outcomes.


Because it was based upon raptor that was built for buccaneers in 1980s.
It was absolute 10 years ago.

Need small diameter bombs ..

Atleast get the raptor evolution ..the raptor 3 which was built 15 years ago


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

syed_yusuf said:


> Keeping the same air frame 2nd seat could be removed with additional fuel. Hence enhancing range with other minor mods jft blk4 strike thunder could be rolled out for PN and paf mirage replacement


PN doesn't operate Mirages, that's a wikipedia propagated myth.


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## Path-Finder

ziaulislam said:


> H4 is old weapon
> Time to dump it and move to advance weapons
> 
> Cant be stuck in the past
> Look at raptor 3


I dont think that its outdated its still able to perform without any hickups and I am sure it have gone under various updates. But yes Raptor 3 is a must.


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## aziqbal

I still believe the Mirage is a very good fighter 

and it provides the PAF much needed capability 

if you remember IFR + many missiles were tested on Mirage first even before the JF17

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## denel

aziqbal said:


> I still believe the Mirage is a very good fighter
> 
> and it provides the PAF much needed capability
> 
> if you remember IFR + many missiles were tested on Mirage first even before the JF17


True but it is run is course; it should be retired or completely rebuilt inside out to Cheetah

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## ghazi52

Mirage-VPA3 equipped with Matra Magic-II Missiles and Exocet Missile

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## Marker

denel said:


> Friend
> 
> I disagree with your assessment about the ROse/M3/5. Yes the upgrades were effective to a certain point but the airframe overall remain unchanged or even engine. Cheetah option was there but never followed thru - a sloppier route was taken. Penny wise pound foolish. Right now we are back to square one. There was a huge opportunity to bring over entire Cheetah line over here and continue on; who knows it would have landed other M3/5 clients to undergo the same conversion.


Comparing specifications of Cheetah with Mirage V, Mirage V has greater ferry and combat range, higher service ceiling and can carry same weight of payload ie 4000 kg.

If PAF wanted to have Cheetah option, they would have opted for it.

MRF and PAC have the capability to manufacture complete airframe structure of Mirage aircraft.

However, manufacturing a new airframe structure along with other parts such as landing gears is very costly as compared to extensive overhauling of older airframes. During the overhaul complete bulkhead of Mirage is being inspected for any anomaly, all damaged bulkheads parts and critical load bearing members are being replaced with new ones, complete aircraft rewiring is being done and its engine, other parts and equipment are being overhauled. In short Mirages coming out of MRF have their service life extended.

In my opinion investing on Cheetah option would have been wastage of scarce financial resources. PAF opting to buy phase out Mirage fleets from various Air Forces is a cheaper solution as it serves the purpose to build enough fleet after extensive overhaul, upgradations and modifications.


denel said:


> Sorry you are completely wrong in every point you raised.


You may have your opinion on the subject, but PAF leadership take decisions according to their strategic requirement with optimum use financial resources.


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## araz

Marker said:


> Comparing specifications of Cheetah with Mirage V, Mirage V has greater ferry and combat range, higher service ceiling and can carry same weight of payload ie 4000 kg.
> 
> If PAF wanted to have Cheetah option, they would have opted for it.
> 
> MRF and PAC have the capability to manufacture complete airframe structure of Mirage aircraft.
> 
> However, manufacturing a new airframe structure along with other parts such as landing gears is very costly as compared to extensive overhauling of older airframes. During the overhaul complete bulkhead of Mirage is being inspected for any anomaly, all damaged bulkheads parts and critical load bearing members are being replaced with new ones, complete aircraft rewiring is being done and its engine, other parts and equipment are being overhauled. In short Mirages coming out of MRF have their service life extended.
> 
> In my opinion investing on Cheetah option would have been wastage of scarce financial resources. PAF opting to buy phase out Mirage fleets from various Air Forces is a cheaper solution as it serves the purpose to build enough fleet after extensive overhaul, upgradations and modifications.
> 
> You may have your opinion on the subject, but PAF leadership take decisions according to their strategic requirement with optimum use financial resources.


I have an old Honda stream from 2003. Now if you know Hondas you will know they will run and run and run. The question as always is I am sick of the sight of it but how much money do I spend on it to update/repair it and when should I let it go. I guess PAF has had the age old dilema of what to do/with them. In their current role they are ideal cheap platforms which we can maintain in house. Till we have weaponry that it can be used with the M3/5 we will keep using it. When the weaponry becomes obsolete the platform will go as well.
A

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## Marker

araz said:


> we have weaponry that it can be used with the M3/5 we will keep using it. When the weaponry becomes obsolete the platform will go as well.
> A


I agree. 

PAF strategy appears to be like what you stated. 

They will definitely replace them completely by year 2030 with JF-17s and may be indigenously developed offshoot of JF-17.

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## araz

Marker said:


> I agree.
> 
> PAF strategy appears to be like what you stated.
> 
> They will definitely replace them completely by year 2030 with JF-17s and may be indigenously developed offshoot of JF-17.


I dare say the J10s might be acquired for this role.
A

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## Marker

araz said:


> I dare say the J10s might be acquired for this role.
> A


Cheaper and reliable option is JF-17 B3s. 

PAF resources will focus to produce JF-17 B3s and Project Azm.

However, if J-10Cs or any other Chinese jet fighters are available as AID to protect Gwadar port, PAF will definitely acquire these but not in very large numbers at early stage of induction process.


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## air marshal



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## Readerdefence

Marker said:


> Cheaper and reliable option is JF-17 B3s.
> 
> PAF resources will focus to produce JF-17 B3s and Project Azm.
> 
> However, if J-10Cs or any other Chinese jet fighters are available as AID to protect Gwadar port, PAF will definitely acquire these but not in very large numbers at early stage of induction process.


Hi I beg to differ with you regarding AID China will not give AID in any circumstances in terms of cash or any other form only thing available from that side is soft loans to some extent those will be extended for certain period 
but offcourse you are right about guarding gawadar for that loan can be expedite ASAP asking for to buy anything from China (offcourse not J20😀) 
your input will be appreciated 
thank you


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## mshan44



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## Marker

Readerdefence said:


> Hi I beg to differ with you regarding AID China will not give AID in any circumstances in terms of cash or any other form only thing available from that side is soft loans to some extent those will be extended for certain period
> but offcourse you are right about guarding gawadar for that loan can be expedite ASAP asking for to buy anything from China (offcourse not J20😀)
> your input will be appreciated
> thank you


You do not need to agree.

It is my inference based on existing geopolitical facts and current Pakistani financial crisis. 

Pakistan do not have enough financial resources to induct any new weapon system.

The amount and quality of military "AID" depend on Chinese seriousness to preserve the CPEC part of Belt Road initiative.

Induction of J-20 and other latest weapon systems are also very much possible.


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## Reichmarshal

Off the whole belt and road initiative, cpec is its flag ship.
So china is deadly serious.


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## denel

Reichmarshal said:


> Off the whole belt and road initiative, cpec is its flag ship.
> So china is deadly serious.


What you need to be wary about is the severe debt trap it is coming with

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## HRK

denel said:


> What you need to be wary about is the severe debt trap it is coming with


for us till today the much hype 'Debt Trap' is set by countries other than China, and total loans from China are still amount less than other countries.

Secondly I would humbly advise you to plz post about internal matters of Pakistan ONLY IF you know the *basic facts*, otherwise plz refrain yourself from commenting on these issues

Regards

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## ziaulislam

Readerdefence said:


> Hi I beg to differ with you regarding AID China will not give AID in any circumstances in terms of cash or any other form only thing available from that side is soft loans to some extent those will be extended for certain period
> but offcourse you are right about guarding gawadar for that loan can be expedite ASAP asking for to buy anything from China (offcourse not J20😀)
> your input will be appreciated
> thank you


You are right new leadership of china since 1988 has avoided giving any military "aid"
But we did recived aid in 1960s with f6
And leadership has now chnaged to one strong man..

Point i am making it is difficult to suggest what will happen as the power has gone from party to one man

I think PAF will try to spend its limited resources on jf17 and azm (and used f16/subsidized f16s) rather then j10 both of which will be cheaper then j10(used/subsidized f16s&jf17)

PAF will probably revelaute options in 2025 for plan 2030 when mirages will have to go..

Unless IAF speeds up its procurement

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## denel

HRK said:


> for us till of today the much hype 'Debt Trap' is set by countries other than China, and total loans from China are still amount less than other countries.
> 
> Secondly I would humbly advise you to plz post about internal matters of Pakistan ONLY IF you know the *basic facts*, otherwise plz refrain yourself from commenting on these issues
> 
> Regards


Well, this was raised on this thread, so it was responded to. As far as China's debt trap is concerned, come and see the fiasco that is now playing out in East Africa. It is not only affecting Pak - but casing point Sri Lanka, Ethiopia, Kenya to name a few. It needs to be raised because it is the ordinary people who are suffering when loans are defaulted and inflation hits sky high.
If you look at any of these aid practices - all is with Chinese labour and materials. We saw it here in Botswana

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## Yasser76

denel said:


> Well, this was raised on this thread, so it was responded to. As far as China's debt trap is concerned, come and see the fiasco that is now playing out in East Africa. It is not only affecting Pak - but casing point Sri Lanka, Ethiopia, Kenya to name a few. It needs to be raised.



Stick the the subject?


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## denel

Yasser76 said:


> Stick the the subject?


sure. let us do that; we can take this off to other thread. This is a larger issue.


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## HRK

denel said:


> Well, this was raised on this thread, so it was responded to. As far as China's debt trap is concerned, come and see the fiasco that is now playing out in East Africa. It is not only affecting Pak - but casing point Sri Lanka, Ethiopia, Kenya to name a few. It needs to be raised.


As said earlier our fundamentals are different we are not East African country or Sri Lanka, If you have your concerns about Chinese Policies in those countries then raise raise it only in relation to those countries NOT IN RELATION OF PAKISTAN.

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## Crimson Blue

Love it. The moment denel stops praising PAF strategy, is when PDF zealots start targeting him. 

Keep your mind open to other peoples point of view as well, they may know something that you don't.

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## TsAr

denel said:


> What you need to be wary about is the severe debt trap it is coming with


when people talk about debt trap, they give example of Srilanka, but one must not forget that dynamics of Pakistan are different then Srilanka or anyother african country. We are strategically located and future of China would also depend on the relation with Pakistan.

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## Waterboy

TsAr said:


> when people talk about debt trap, they give example of Srilanka, but one must not forget that dynamics of Pakistan are different then Srilanka or anyother african country. We are strategically located and future of China would also depend on the relation with Pakistan.


Still cannot rule out loosing land to China. They asked for further guarantee in loan financing. What might that be? The only thing that we can gurantee is land....

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## Readerdefence

Marker said:


> You do not need to agree.
> 
> It is my inference based on existing geopolitical facts and current Pakistani financial crisis.
> 
> Pakistan do not have enough financial resources to induct any new weapon system.
> 
> The amount and quality of military "AID" depend on Chinese seriousness to preserve the CPEC part of Belt Road initiative.
> 
> Induction of J-20 and other latest weapon systems are also very much possible.


Hi thanks for you detailed reply but I’m skeptic about J20 as long as Indians are not getting anything in terms of 5th generation Chinese doesn’t want to have a stealth fighter in their back yard as the are already dealing this around SCS area so no no in terms of J20 
but then I’m not denying of not getting J31/xx as you will agree with me on the number of j20 they have manufactured are not even enough for their own country beside that Chinese towing USA lines of not supplying F22 but whoever have the money or will can buy F35 hopefully you are well versed then me in terms of technology between the two I’m agreed with your point of not having enough financial resources that’s why most of the members here don’t want to accept that Pakistan is not funding anything towards J31 that’s the reason it’s is taking it’s pace as Chinese are also not in A rush to induct it in their Naval arm being only couple of ACC on line once they cross the number of desired aircraft carrier to go beyond their island chain to roam freely in the open sea more often they will accelerate the speed of JXX or whatever 
Thank you


Waterboy said:


> Still cannot rule out loosing land to China. They asked for further guarantee in loan financing. What might that be? The only thing that we can gurantee is land....


Hi my friend don’t mind but Pakistan is in a habit of loosing land in terms of bases for certain times so if you economy really lifting up & I mean really beside that someone can be fully back you up on your bad times giving away your gawadar base for certain times is not a bad option now I’m not saying giving away like Badabir and shamsi base 
offcourse you keep your presence there but give Chinese navy logistics refuelling and bla bla in that case its a win win situation 
thank you


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## Marker

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for you detailed reply but I’m skeptic about J20 as long as Indians are not getting anything in terms of 5th generation Chinese doesn’t want to have a stealth fighter in their back yard as the are already dealing this around SCS area so no no in terms of J20
> but then I’m not denying of not getting J31/xx as you will agree with me on the number of j20 they have manufactured are not even enough for their own country beside that Chinese towing USA lines of not supplying F22 but whoever have the money or will can buy F35 hopefully you are well versed then me in terms of technology between the two I’m agreed with your point of not having enough financial resources that’s why most of the members here don’t want to accept that Pakistan is not funding anything towards J31 that’s the reason it’s is taking it’s pace as Chinese are also not in A rush to induct it in their Naval arm being only couple of ACC on line once they cross the number of desired aircraft carrier to go beyond their island chain to roam freely in the open sea more often they will accelerate the speed of JXX or whatever
> Thank you
> 
> Hi my friend don’t mind but Pakistan is in a habit of loosing land in terms of bases for certain times so if you economy really lifting up & I mean really beside that someone can be fully back you up on your bad times giving away your gawadar base for certain times is not a bad option now I’m not saying giving away like Badabir and shamsi base
> offcourse you keep your presence there but give Chinese navy logistics refuelling and bla bla in that case its a win win situation
> thank you


Again, it is your opinion.

I will still say that possibility of latest weapon systems in Chinese arsenal can be strategically "positioned" inside Pakistan to safeguard CPEC cannot be ruled out, considering the importance CPEC for Chinese economy and business.

J-20 will not be positioned to counter Indian threat. The actual threat is from US, its allies and some Arab countries who are against CPEC. 

Moreover, UAE and Israel friendly relationship can become a serious threat to Pakistani strategic and nuclear assets in near future.

Whether we like it or not, but Pakistan is slowly moving towards eastern block comprising Chinese and Russians.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Marker said:


> J-20 will not be positioned to counter Indian threat. The actual threat is from US, its allies and some Arab countries who are against CPEC.
> 
> Moreover, UAE and Israel friendly relationship can become a serious threat to Pakistani strategic and nuclear assets in near future.
> 
> Whether we like it or not, but Pakistan is slowly moving towards eastern block comprising Chinese and Russians.


So when finally the US and the Arabs stop giving you money, they're the enemy now?
If only we were diplomatically and economically strong enough for Israel to even consider us a threat. Sorry to burst your bubble but the only thing having nukes confirm is that you'll be equally dead as the ones you used it on. Why is the UAE in everyone's crosshairs? Turkey and China have accepted Israel's sovereignty for much longer and have much better relations than any Pakistani would like to admit.
When you say east you should say China, because India has been playing their cards right for long enough to have Russia never consider you over them.


Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for you detailed reply but I’m skeptic about J20 as long as Indians are not getting anything in terms of 5th generation Chinese doesn’t want to have a stealth fighter in their back yard as the are already dealing this around SCS area so no no in terms of J20
> but then I’m not denying of not getting J31/xx as you will agree with me on the number of j20 they have manufactured are not even enough for their own country beside that Chinese towing USA lines of not supplying F22 but whoever have the money or will can buy F35 hopefully you are well versed then me in terms of technology between the two I’m agreed with your point of not having enough financial resources that’s why most of the members here don’t want to accept that Pakistan is not funding anything towards J31 that’s the reason it’s is taking it’s pace as Chinese are also not in A rush to induct it in their Naval arm being only couple of ACC on line once they cross the number of desired aircraft carrier to go beyond their island chain to roam freely in the open sea more often they will accelerate the speed of JXX or whatever
> Thank you
> 
> Hi my friend don’t mind but Pakistan is in a habit of loosing land in terms of bases for certain times so if you economy really lifting up & I mean really beside that someone can be fully back you up on your bad times giving away your gawadar base for certain times is not a bad option now I’m not saying giving away like Badabir and shamsi base
> offcourse you keep your presence there but give Chinese navy logistics refuelling and bla bla in that case its a win win situation
> thank you


we're not getting the J-20, it's not for export, China is an ally, doesn't mean it's desperate enough to break it's own rules. We might've been pushing for the J-20 as a ploy to have China settle on the J-10 at favourable terms. Just my deduction. We'll only know for sure when either of them actually arrive.


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## ghazi52



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## ziaulislam

Waterboy said:


> Still cannot rule out loosing land to China. They asked for further guarantee in loan financing. What might that be? The only thing that we can gurantee is land....


Day dreaming


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## Marker

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> So when finally the US and the Arabs stop giving you money, they're the enemy now?
> If only we were diplomatically and economically strong enough for Israel to even consider us a threat. Sorry to burst your bubble but the only thing having nukes confirm is that you'll be equally dead as the ones you used it on. Why is the UAE in everyone's crosshairs? Turkey and China have accepted Israel's sovereignty for much longer and have much better relations than any Pakistani would like to admit.
> When you say east you should say China, because India has been playing their cards right for long enough to have Russia never consider you over them.
> 
> we're not getting the J-20, it's not for export, China is an ally, doesn't mean it's desperate enough to break it's own rules. We might've been pushing for the J-20 as a ploy to have China settle on the J-10 at favourable terms. Just my deduction. We'll only know for sure when either of them actually arrive.


Since creation of Israel, focal point of every event happening in the middle east is/was Israel. 

Israel consider Pakistan as a serious threat to its very existence. Though the aerial distance between the two countries is less than 3300 km, but even than Israel tried to target Pakistani nuclear assets.

Pakistan stance on not recognizing Israel is directly linked to IOJK. Pakistan support fair deal for people of Palestine who were illegally ejected from their homeland.

With acquisition of F-35s and assess to bases in UAE will definitely enable Israeli AF to target Pakistani strategic and nuclear assets. One of the reasons why Israeli supported UAE to procure F-35s is apparently having an F-35 support base on UAE soil. 

It is not in the interest of Israel, US and western allies, that 

1 Strong eastern block be formed to challenge their market monopoly.
2. De-linking petro-dollar. (It will also effect Arab monarchies)
3. Pakistan becoming strong, economically independent and influential state in the region.

CPEC, Belt Road initiative and EAEU are the beginning of the western nightmare. 

Pakistan being a weak link in this great game, is an obvious target. Indians are being used to directly offend and pressurize Pakistan to give away CPEC.

So in my opinion, if China consider CPEC as its one of the precious life line than China will open its arsenal to Pakistan Military.

J-20 and other weapon systems are very much a possibility.

Delivery of 50 hi tech Winglong 2 drones to Pakistan Military is one the indications, that China is very much serious.

History reveals that today's enemy is tomorrow's friend and vise versa. The great game is all about make and break the market monopoly and overall domination.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Marker said:


> Israel consider Pakistan as a serious threat to its very existence.


really hard to take such absurdity seriously in this day and age

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52



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## Marker

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> really hard to take such absurdity seriously in this day and age


You do not have to agree.

_You are living in a fantasy world of "Tipoca City Military Complex, Kamino". Of course your day and age will be different then the actual world called "earth". _

Come out of it and realize the facts of geopolitical situation of this world where you actually live.

Then your "absurdity" will become clear.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Marker said:


> You do not have to agree.
> 
> _You are living in a fantasy world of "Tipoca City Military Complex, Kamino". Of course your day and age will be different then the actual world called "earth". _
> 
> Come out of it and realize the facts of geopolitical situation of this world where you actually live.
> 
> Then your "absurdity" will become clear.


the audacity of talking about fantasies coming from someone who thinks israel so much as thinks twice about the world doesn't revolve around this country snap out of it
come up with a better argument than what someone writes in their bio and then we'll talk kid

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## Marker

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> the audacity of talking about fantasies coming from someone who thinks israel so much as thinks twice about the world doesn't revolve around this country snap out of it
> come up with a better argument than what someone writes in their bio and then we'll talk kid


This thread is not dedicated to discuss the geopolitical situation and role of Israel in the region.

Link your statement in relevant thread, then we will discuss in detail.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Marker said:


> This thread is not dedicated to discuss the geopolitical situation and role of Israel in the region.
> 
> Link your statement in relevant thread, then we will discuss in detail.


no thank you I think I'm done


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Majestic Mirages flying above the Makran coastal range.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"



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## Talon

Metal Cobra

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## m52k85

What capabilities do the Mirages offer that Jf-17 still doesnt have? 

I know Raad-2 with JF-17 is arnd the corner, anything else?

GPS guided munition (Takbir) already inducted.

Laser guided wasnt part of Mirages but with Aselpod Jf-17s have that ability, dont know if the chinese LS series of munitions have been procured though. Do we have an inhouse one?

Optical guided (H-series type), is that avlbl on Jf?

Anti ship is covered well by Jf.

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## MastanKhan

m52k85 said:


> What capabilities do the Mirages offer that Jf-17 still doesnt have?
> 
> I know Raad-2 with JF-17 is arnd the corner, anything else?
> 
> GPS guided munition (Takbir) already inducted.
> 
> Laser guided wasnt part of Mirages but with Aselpod Jf-17s have that ability, dont know if the chinese LS series of munitions have been procured though. Do we have an inhouse one?
> 
> Optical guided (H-series type), is that avlbl on Jf?
> 
> Anti ship is covered well by Jf.




NUMBERS----.

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## GriffinsRule

Hodor said:


> Metal Cobra
> 
> View attachment 702524


First image I have seen of 70-416! Thanks for the share

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## ghazi52

The Night Strike Eagle's - Mirage V.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Mirage-VEF formation from No.27 Sqn "Zarrars" employing MK-82HD bombs at designated targets. Mk-82HD fitted with a special high-drag tail fin unit (including combination of balloon and parachute) .

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## air marshal

Dassault Mirage VEF

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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Band of Brothers hunt together.*

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## ghazi52

Mirage-IIIEA.

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## denel

no news of the EA birds?

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## Blueskiez 2001

denel said:


> no news of the EA birds?



LOL I was thinking the same...

Why is that i have a feeling that PAF is deliberately keeping every news about other induction of planes wrapped up...

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## denel

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> LOL I was thinking the same...
> 
> Why is that i have a feeling that PAF is deliberately keeping every news about other induction of planes wrapped up...


May be there is nothing to report given all challenges with covid and finances.

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## Blueskiez 2001

denel said:


> May be there is nothing to report given all challenges with covid and finances.



Agree it could be a very simple reason. Another reason could be that the agreement with EA has not been finalized.


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## syed_yusuf

What is EA refered to?


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## ziaulislam

syed_yusuf said:


> What is EA refered to?


Eygption airforce

My guess the deal fell through
Probably eygpt was asking for lot more money

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> Eygption airforce
> 
> My guess the deal fell through
> Probably eygpt was asking for lot more money


very possible - or maybe due to KSA pressure on Sisi. SOmetimes it is for the better. Focus on other priorities

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## m52k85

denel said:


> very possible - or maybe due to KSA pressure on Sisi. SOmetimes it is for the better. Focus on other priorities


Not sure about KSA but someone did mention there was pressure from some quarter and the deal fell through

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## airomerix

Fresh out of MRF.

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> Fresh out of MRF.
> 
> View attachment 708185


What these white patches are? Surgery?

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## Marker

mingle said:


> What these white patches are? Surgery?


If it is out fresh from Kamra, then my guess is that these panels may have been made "removable" for easy access to the wiring, sensors or equipment installed behind these panels, (Need high pixel snapshot to reconfirm.)

Some sort of factory upgradation must have been carried out.

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## GriffinsRule

Cant be. You can see its not been repainted. Paints faded in front of the engine intake and below the aircraft you can see oil stains. Still a nice picture

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## The Accountant

denel said:


> What you need to be wary about is the severe debt trap it is coming with


Not necessarily as most of the investment in direct value addition prpjects such as hydro power plants, coal power plants, railway upgradation.

All of this will result in savings in terms of fuel imports and decrease in cost of production making us competitive.

Unlike history where loans were taken by governmeng for budgetory support CPEC loans and funds are revenue generating project basis therefore they will likely to give much more benefits then the loans obtained in last few decades

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## Signalian

denel said:


> very possible - or maybe due to KSA pressure on Sisi. SOmetimes it is for the better. Focus on other priorities


M3/5 would have been out of the equation by now had JF-17 become a thoroughly quintessential aircraft of choice for all strike roles in PAF that M5 undertakes.

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## Signalian

airomerix said:


> Fresh out of MRF.
> 
> View attachment 708185


A website mentions date of 2017 for this pic.

Anyways, Haiders are the Squadron in karachi for Naval role. 79 would mean the manufacturing year ? These PA2 and PA3 were newly built, Considering its a 40 year old machine, a job well done. 

The F-16 MLU were made in early 80s. Thankyou LM.

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## DANGER-ZONE

airomerix said:


> Fresh out of MRF.
> 
> View attachment 708185



Its Masroor Air Base and Zohaib Zaidi lives in Karachi.

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## denel

Signalian said:


> M3/5 would have been out of the equation by now had JF-17 become a thoroughly quintessential aircraft of choice for all strike roles in PAF that M5 undertakes.


Agreed; if the extended landing gear for jf-17b/b3 are to be considered - they do open up a lot. Overall, it is time to put these beauties to rest. On another topic - i really wonder why Sri-lanka went over to IAI for refurbishing their Kfirs; PAC could have done that work unless their turnaround time is longer due to work comitted already.

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> M3/5 would have been out of the equation by now had JF-17 become a thoroughly quintessential aircraft of choice for all strike roles in PAF that M5 undertakes.


Jf17 project has been the victim of budgetary restraints and variability of plans. 
On one side PAF wants Jf17 to replace point air defense fighters like F7P/PG, on other side it wants Jf17 to replace dedicated strike aircrafts like Mirages. 
Hence the compromises. I see Mirages dragging as far as 2028 if no solution is made available.

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## ghazi52

Combat Commander School Mirage IIIEA.

© N.A Photography

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## Windjammer

airomerix said:


> Fresh out of MRF.
> 
> View attachment 708185

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## araz

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 709996


In the light of the revelation of a J10 model and the possibility of induction of J10 how will it effect the mirage fleet. Will we still retain a couple of squadron for lamd strike role? Somehow I dont see the mirages going till 2025.
A

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## Windjammer

araz said:


> In the light of the revelation of a J10 model and the possibility of induction of J10 how will it effect the mirage fleet. Will we still retain a couple of squadron for lamd strike role? Somehow I dont see the mirages going till 2025.
> A


The Mirages are certainly not going anywhere any time soon.
Apart from proving their capability during swift retort, currently they are the only fast jets to deliver both the Exocet and ALCMs.

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## Windjammer

An early image of PAF Mirage III EP releasing Eight 500 Pound Bombs.

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> In the light of the revelation of a J10 model and the possibility of induction of J10 how will it effect the mirage fleet. Will we still retain a couple of squadron for lamd strike role? Somehow I dont see the mirages going till 2025.
> A


Mirgae 5 2-3 squardons will remain well into 2030
Unless miraculously we get a huge j10/f16 order

They will serve for raad & h1/2 delivery

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## The Raven

Windjammer said:


> The Mirages are certainly not going anywhere any time soon.
> Apart from proving their capability during swift retort, currently they are the only fast jets to deliver both the Exocet and ALCMs.



The Exocet has been largely superceded by the CM-400AKG and C-803 AShM while the H2/4 has been replaced by the redesigned Raad, REK kits for bombs, and Chinese ASMs. The Mirages will be around for as long as it takes JF-17 numbers to be built to replace them.

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

The Raven said:


> The Exocet has been largely superceded by the CM-400AKG and C-803 AShM while the H2/4 has been replaced by the redesigned Raad, REK kits for bombs, and Chinese ASMs. The Mirages will be around for as long as it takes JF-17 numbers to be built to replace them.


JF-17 can't carry Raad last I checked. Plus the JF-17 wasn't intended to replace at least the ROSE Mirages.

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## Pak_Sher

Marker said:


> Since creation of Israel, focal point of every event happening in the middle east is/was Israel.
> 
> Israel consider Pakistan as a serious threat to its very existence. Though the aerial distance between the two countries is less than 3300 km, but even than Israel tried to target Pakistani nuclear assets.
> 
> Pakistan stance on not recognizing Israel is directly linked to IOJK. Pakistan support fair deal for people of Palestine who were illegally ejected from their homeland.
> 
> With acquisition of F-35s and assess to bases in UAE will definitely enable Israeli AF to target Pakistani strategic and nuclear assets. One of the reasons why Israeli supported UAE to procure F-35s is apparently having an F-35 support base on UAE soil.
> 
> It is not in the interest of Israel, US and western allies, that
> 
> 1 Strong eastern block be formed to challenge their market monopoly.
> 2. De-linking petro-dollar. (It will also effect Arab monarchies)
> 3. Pakistan becoming strong, economically independent and influential state in the region.
> 
> CPEC, Belt Road initiative and EAEU are the beginning of the western nightmare.
> 
> Pakistan being a weak link in this great game, is an obvious target. Indians are being used to directly offend and pressurize Pakistan to give away CPEC.
> 
> So in my opinion, if China consider CPEC as its one of the precious life line than China will open its arsenal to Pakistan Military.
> 
> J-20 and other weapon systems are very much a possibility.
> 
> Delivery of 50 hi tech Winglong 2 drones to Pakistan Military is one the indications, that China is very much serious.
> 
> History reveals that today's enemy is tomorrow's friend and vise versa. The great game is all about make and break the market monopoly and overall domination.


UAE along with other GCC Countries are our brothers and allies. Ups and downs are part of any relationship, but GCC is home to millions of Pakistani Expats and businesses. 

UAE is not a military threat to Pakistan. Pakistan should have diplomatic ties with Israel.


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## Xone

Pak_Sher said:


> UAE along with other GCC Countries are our brothers and allies. Ups and downs are part of any relationship, but GCC is home to millions of Pakistani Expats and businesses.
> 
> UAE is not a military threat to Pakistan. Pakistan should have diplomatic ties with Israel.


UAE and KSA has practically joined Israel camp, and we opted their opposite. So the chance of their turn into threat is not very far off. Pakistan should not sacrifice its interests for the sake of these Arabs and others. 
Pakistan has been walking on tight rope to keep US on his side erstwhile, but US has gone for India as its new ally in the new world order. The chances of any betterment in the relationship are very bleak but still on the table because of Afghanistan in a limited level. 
Ultimately, Pakistan has to choose J10C for F16 and to replace mirages to counter Indian Rafaels.
How quickly this decision is taken? This depends on options and foresight of the PAF leaders.Soon We will see J10c in large nos along with its other dragon brother.

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## Nomad40

What happens do the decommissioned Mirage?


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## Pak_Sher

Xone said:


> UAE and KSA has practically joined Israel camp, and we opted their opposite. So the chance of their turn into threat is not very far off. Pakistan should not sacrifice its interests for the sake of these Arabs and others.
> Pakistan has been walking on tight rope to keep US on his side erstwhile, but US has gone for India as its new ally in the new world order. The chances of any betterment in the relationship are very bleak but still on the table because of Afghanistan in a limited level.
> Ultimately, Pakistan has to choose J10C for F16 and to replace mirages to counter Indian Rafaels.
> How quickly this decision is taken? This depends on options and foresight of the PAF leaders.Soon We will see J10c in large nos along with its other dragon brother.


Pakistan has a big trade relationship with the US. Every effort should be made to enhance our relationship with the US. Economic growth is key to any standing around the globe. India has grown economically and increased its financial standing. It is part of G20 and has an economic relationship with every continent. That is what Pakistan needs to do is to strengthen its economy and economic relationship with many countries. The rest will follow.

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## Clairvoyant

Windjammer said:


> An early image of PAF Mirage III EP releasing Eight 500 Pound Bombs.
> 
> View attachment 710743



These are 750Ib bombs which are being carried on an RPK.10 combined fuel/bomb carrier. It had a 500 litres fuel capacity and 4 bombs could be attached to it.

Quite an impressive bomb load to be honest though this configuration was/is infrequently used.

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## The Raven

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> JF-17 can't carry Raad last I checked. Plus the JF-17 wasn't intended to replace at least the ROSE Mirages.



There is speculation the redesigned Raad with X-tail could be carried by JF-17. With integration of Chinese and Turkish LDP, as well as IFR, REK bombs, and other PGMs, it's more than capable of taking on the role of ROSE Mirages. The Mirages are still going due to their capability to use H2/4 but these PGMs are now outdated.


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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

The Raven said:


> The Mirages are still going due to their capability to use H2/4 but these PGMs are now outdated.


they worked when they were needed didn't they?

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## The Raven

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> they worked when they were needed didn't they?



Sure they did, but there comes a time when everything has reached its full utility. A single JF-17 can do what it takes 2 Mirages.


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## Windjammer

Clairvoyant said:


> These are 750Ib bombs which are being carried on an RPK.10 combined fuel/bomb carrier. It had a 500 litres fuel capacity and 4 bombs could be attached to it.
> 
> Quite an impressive bomb load to be honest though this configuration was/is infrequently used.


Well i was only quoting what Air International reported. In fact they are saying these are 500 KG Bombs.




__





Air International 1981-04






aviadejavu.ru

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## khanasifm

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> JF-17 can't carry Raad last I checked. Plus the JF-17 wasn't intended to replace at least the ROSE Mirages.



Yea indeed 






__





Pakistan’s Air Power Brother in Arms – Second To None Pakistan Air Force Magazine







secondtononepaf.com

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## Gripen9

Windjammer said:


> Well i was only quoting what Air International reported. In fact they are saying these are 500 KG Bombs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air International 1981-04
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aviadejavu.ru
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 710891


Well they are wrong. 500KG = 1100 LBs. Those would be massive. 
The above picture has 4 x Rockeye cluster bombs (or whatever is the local version called)

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## Clairvoyant

Gripen9 said:


> Well they are wrong. 500KG = 1100 LBs. Those would be massive.
> The above picture has 4 x Rockeye cluster bombs (or whatever is the local version called)





These are the local version of Mk.20 cluster bombs and each one weighs around 450Ib's, they're locally called PSD-1. The picture is basically a screenshot from a video that was shot a couple of years ago. The Mirage-V in the video is actually carrying 10 Cluster bombs along with two AIM.9P's.

Sadly Air International is wrong there,they're 750Ib Mk.117 bombs.

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## Gripen9

Clairvoyant said:


> These are the local version of Mk.20 cluster bombs and each one weighs around 450Ib's, they're locally called PSD-1. The picture is basically a screenshot from a video that was shot a couple of years ago. The Mirage-V in the video is actually carrying 10 Cluster bombs along with two AIM.9P's.
> 
> Sadly Air International is wrong there,they're 750Ib Mk.117 bombs.


Yeah, I have seen 4 x durandals on the fuel tanks in the past but nothing that big.

Even with 750 lb means each hardpoint has almost 3500-4000 lb load!


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## Zulfiqar

Clairvoyant said:


> These are the local version of Mk.20 cluster bombs and each one weighs around 450Ib's, they're locally called PSD-1. The picture is basically a screenshot from a video that was shot a couple of years ago. The Mirage-V in the video is actually carrying 10 Cluster bombs along with two AIM.9P's.
> 
> Sadly Air International is wrong there,they're 750Ib Mk.117 bombs.



If only we could replace those with equal number of SDBs then that would help a lot in stand off attack against an air field.

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## Windjammer

Gripen9 said:


> Well they are wrong. 500KG = 1100 LBs. Those would be massive.
> The above picture has 4 x Rockeye cluster bombs (or whatever is the local version called)


Yes that's why i quoted 500 pounders thinking that it was an error by the journal.
The other image was for reference only showing CBU units attached to the drop tanks, something pioneered by the French. The 500 0r 750 pound iron bombs are visible in the below image.
Another novel idea was the SNEB rocket pods also present, the rear part of those acted as an auxiliary fuel tank.

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## Gripen9

Windjammer said:


> Yes that's why i quoted 500 pounders thinking that it was an error by the journal.
> The other image was for reference only showing CBU units attached to the drop tanks, something pioneered by the French. The 500 0r 750 pound iron bombs are visible in the below image.
> Another novel idea was the SNEB rocket pods also present, the rear part of those acted as an auxiliary fuel tank.
> 
> 
> View attachment 711119


This is a nice photo. Notice the single Matra 530 SARG missile under center line hard point. I have seen the rocket pod/fuel tank combo in action. the rocket exhaust from the sides is a sight to see.

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## Windjammer

Gripen9 said:


> This is a nice photo. Notice the single Matra 530 SARG missile under center line hard point. I have seen the rocket pod/fuel tank combo in action. the rocket exhaust from the sides is a sight to see.


Another old image with MATRA 530 infra red seeker removed and a PAF Mirage -VPA firing rockets.

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## Gripen9

Windjammer said:


> Another old image with MATRA 530 infra red seeker removed and a PAF Mirage -VPA firing rockets.
> 
> View attachment 711354
> 
> 
> View attachment 711355


Didn't know we had the IR version of 530 as well. Matra 530 was the first "BVR" PAF had. One was actually fired in 1971 against an IAF Mig21 but the pilot had to break radar lock causing it to go off target.

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## ghazi52



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## Gripen9

This maybe off topic.
But this is a highly modernized Columbian (FAC) Kfir C10. Carrying 2xpython3, 2x derby BVR, lightening pod, 1 LGB and a standoff weapon. 
A lot can still be done with the Mirage III platform

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## Xone

Gripen9 said:


> This maybe off topic.
> But this is a highly modernized Columbian (FAC) Kfir C10. Carrying 2xpython3, 2x derby BVR, lightening pod, 1 LGB and a standoff weapon.
> A lot can still be done with the Mirage III platform


PAF focus is JF-17B3 at present. Mirage has provided what Pakistan was looking for to counter Indian threat in nineties and early twenties. 
Innovative solutions have provided Israel an edge, Had it been undertaken alone or with help and guidance of Dassault France? Pakistan has to play with airframe for additional hard points and gadgets.

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## araz

Xone said:


> PAF focus is JF-17B3 at present. Mirage has provided what Pakistan was looking for to counter Indian threat in nineties and early twenties.
> Innovative solutions have provided Israel an edge, Had it been undertaken alone or with help and guidance of Dassault France? Pakistan has to play with airframe for additional hard points and gadgets.


The life and utility of the frame is gone. Let it go in peace. It is like trying to breath back into a 90 years old man who has stopped breathing. It just does not work.
A

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## ghazi52



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## denel

Xone said:


> PAF focus is JF-17B3 at present. Mirage has provided what Pakistan was looking for to counter Indian threat in nineties and early twenties.
> Innovative solutions have provided Israel an edge, Had it been undertaken alone or with help and guidance of Dassault France? Pakistan has to play with airframe for additional hard points and gadgets.


Look friend, in order to go to the level you want, that means having the abilities for new alloys etc to begin with that are not present. The time for keeping this airframe going is past way its expiry date and longer it is up it is a death trap for pilots overall. Sure, you will most likely have a very dedicated birds that up to the mark for next 10yrs; the remainder will be put to rest in peace as 17b matures or another dedicated strike role bird comes in. The time you are referring to was 20+ yrs back when a Cheetah upgrade program should have been done; but that is history. Let us hope it is not repeated.

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## ghazi52

Air Marshal (Retd) Hifazat Ullah Khan..has served as
Vice Chief Of Air Staff ..

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## airomerix

Ex Libyan Mirage 5D

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## nomi007

Gripen9 said:


> This maybe off topic.
> But this is a highly modernized Columbian (FAC) Kfir C10. Carrying 2xpython3, 2x derby BVR, lightening pod, 1 LGB and a standoff weapon.
> A lot can still be done with the Mirage III platform
> 
> View attachment 711389


Oue Rose III upgraded mirages are fullfilliing our requirements.

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## Deltadart

airomerix said:


> Ex Libyan Mirage 5D
> 
> View attachment 714216


Fine looking bird.

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> *Mirage III in the Royal Australian Air Force*


Nice Moon shining pic

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## Windjammer



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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 715026
> 
> 
> View attachment 715028


Looks Rafiqi to me


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## ghazi52

Wing Commander Fayyaz Embraced Martyrdom when PAF Mirage Aircraft crashed near Masroor air base. Karachi.

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> Wing Commander Fayyaz Embraced Martyrdom when PAF Mirage Aircraft crashed near Masroor air base. Karachi.
> 
> 
> View attachment 715331







__





Log into Facebook


Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.




www.facebook.com





This happened some time ago, this is not a new crash. You should make that clear.

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## Windjammer

View attachment 708185

[/QUOTE]


Ali_Baba said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Log into Facebook
> 
> 
> Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This happened some time ago, this is not a new crash. You should make that clear.


This is what happens when you don't have any knowledge and just copy paste what you see on social media .


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Is this real.

Mirage-VPA3 armed with Aim-9P (Rear aspect air to air missile) and AM-39 Anti-Ship missile.

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## khanasifm

When will these rear aspect aam decommissioned ?


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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> Is this real.
> 
> Mirage-VPA3 armed with Aim-9P (Rear aspect air to air missile) and AM-39 Anti-Ship missile.
> 
> 
> View attachment 717212


I actually scanned that image years and years ago for my old website with shoddy PS skill at the time to try and remove the light where the page curved inwards.
Its real and from Defender of Pakistan book.

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## Clairvoyant



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## syed_yusuf

Last pic is of rose1?


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## The Raven

ghazi52 said:


> Is this real.
> 
> Mirage-VPA3 armed with Aim-9P (Rear aspect air to air missile) and AM-39 Anti-Ship missile.
> 
> 
> View attachment 717212



What's so special about this pic to make you think it's fake? Mirages have been carrying the Exocet and Aim-9 for decades.


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## Windjammer

The Raven said:


> What's so special about this pic to make you think it's fake? Mirages have been carrying the Exocet and Aim-9 for decades.


Almost 40 year old image which first appeared in ''Defenders of Pakistan''.
And has been posted here 40 times.

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## denel

ghazi52 said:


> Is this real.
> 
> Mirage-VPA3 armed with Aim-9P (Rear aspect air to air missile) and AM-39 Anti-Ship missile.
> 
> 
> View attachment 717212


yes, it is a real image - it is from my late friend - Mohammad Amin's book -

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## Windjammer



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## mshan44



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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

*PAF to celebrate Golden Jubilee of Mirage in service Tomorrow. *

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## ghazi52

Mirage-3EA ROSE-1 serving in CCS bearing tail No 90-599 is ready to roll.

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## Raja Porus



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## ghazi52



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## Deltadart

What if any other avionics upgrades have these mirages undergone since the rose upgrades? Since the latest sensors and electronic gadgets etc matter more now than any other time in history, and don't cost an arm and a leg to afford either.


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## nomi007

*50 Years of Mirage in Pakistan Air Force | PAF Documentary @Pakistan Air Force*

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## mshan44



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## GriffinsRule

nomi007 said:


> *50 Years of Mirage in Pakistan Air Force | PAF Documentary @Pakistan Air Force*


At mark 18:40 ... clearly states that Kamra repaired two Saab aircraft from the attack. So for people who said only 1 was damaged here you go. 
After one was destroyed, PAF only had 1 Saab that was airworthy as it was not at the base at the time of the attack.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364995724379758592

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## Ghessan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364835400884256775

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## DANGER-ZONE

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 720019



*Can you see H4 & REK in the background?
Look closer .....*

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## Windjammer

DANGER-ZONE said:


> *Can you see H4 & REK in the background?
> Look closer .....*

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## DANGER-ZONE

DANGER-ZONE said:


> *Can you see H4 & REK in the background?
> Look closer .....*



Let's take a closer look at it but can't show the rest of the image ... so apologies in advance.

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## The Raven

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 720272



He means this photo with the chubby bearded bloke in the foreground...the background shows the H2/4 (Raptor)



mshan44 said:


> View attachment 720019


I really don't get why there is so much secrecy needed for the H2/4.

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## ghazi52

*PAF’s ‘invaluable’ assets: Mirage Fighter Jets*
*'The Dependable Delta' - PAF celebrates 50 years of Mirage fighter jets in its service*




By *Web Desk* 
*Feb 25, 2021* 

*Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Thursday (today) held ‘50th Anniversary of Mirages and Colors Award’ ceremony at at Shorkot.*

The ceremony commemorating golden jubilee of Mirage fighter jets being in service with PAF was also attended by President Arif Alvi and Chief of Air Staff PAF – Air Chief Marshall Mujahid Anwar Khan.

Expressing his views President Arif Alvi reiterated his faith in PAF’s capability to defend the motherland and ensure a befitting response to any misadventure by the enemy.

Referring to PAF’s Operation Swift Retort, President Arif Alvi said that any hostility will be retaliated with the likes of February 27 2019 when an Indian Mig-21 was shot down with its pilot being captured by Pakistan.

The premier also lauded PAF’s technicians and engineers who have ensured that PAF maintains its supreme operational capability.

*PAF And Mirage Fighter Jets*

PAF first acquired Dassault Mirage III fighter jets from France in 1968 which were followed by procurement of Mirage V aircraft in 1970.

All of PAF’s Mirage fighter jets have been upgraded under ‘Project ROSE’ (Retrofit Of Strike Element) which has enabled these aircrafts to carry out precision strike during night.

PAF originally acquired 135 Mirage IIII and 139 Mirage V aircrafts. Currently it operates 56 Mirage III and 69 Mirage V fighter jets as the rest have been phased out/retired.

PAF has successfully operated Dassault Mirages for 50 years now – a feat only handful of air forces have accomplished around the world.

The astonishing accomplishment was achieved via a comprehensive maintenance and overhauling capacity building in the form of Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF), Kamra.

MRF is a dynamic setup that undertakes variety of aircraft and engine overhauls. The setup became a bench mark of MRO for western systems technology through overhauling of Mirage aircraft for the last four decades. The factory undertakes complete MRO solution from testing to overhaul of Aircraft components and major inspections of fixed wing aircraft.

MRF is responsible for structure repair of western platforms and weapon systems of PAF. This also includes damage analysis and formulation of repair schemes.

MRF also upgraded PAF’s vintage platforms with modern Avionics suite along with weapon integration. Air to Air Refueling capability in Mirage aircraft was undertaken by acquiring state of art capabilities by MRF.
Furthermore, PAF’s MRO (Mirage Aircraft Overhauling) facility which is capable of overhauling Mirage III aircrafts.

Mirage fighter jets have in fact been the backbone of PAF over the years. The ground attack phase of 2019 Operation Swift Retort was also carried out by PAF’s Mirage fighter jets.

Furthermore, Mirage jets also remain the only platform in PAF’s inventory capable of delivering indigenously developed 600-km “Ra’ad” nuclear-capable Air launched cruise missile (ALCM) developed by Air Weapons Complex (AWC).










PAF's 'invaluable' assets: Mirage Fighter Jets - Voice of Sindh - en


Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Thursday (today) held ‘50th Anniversary of Mirages and Colors Award’ ceremony at at Shorkot.




www.voiceofsindh.com.pk

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## ghazi52

MIRAGE-IIIDP 67-302 PAKISTAN AIR FORCE
THANK YOU FOR 54+ YEARS OF SERVICE

Credit:- faiman
Faiman Aviation Photography

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## denel

The Raven said:


> He means this photo with the cubby bearded bloke in the foreground...the background shows the H2/4 (Raptor)
> 
> 
> I really don't get why there is so much secrecy needed for the H2/4.


The reason was the curry munchers on the other side were doing to use Corrupt Crooked Curry stained Indian transplants Guptas to cause trouble as they were holding Zuma's balls.

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## Windjammer

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Let's take a closer look at it but can't show the rest of the image ... so apologies in advance.
> 
> View attachment 720275


The front and
The Back.

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## mshan44



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## The Raven

denel said:


> The reason was the curry munchers on the other side were doing to use Corrupt Crooked Curry stained Indian transplants Guptas to cause trouble as they were holding Zuma's balls.



But surely that's irrelevant now?


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## denel

The Raven said:


> But surely that's irrelevant now?


very much so. they are long gone after stealing like it was no man's business including their sponsor - our citizens want to see them locked up behind bars. Now they are busy scamming their way with Uzbek govt.

There needs to be serious engagement very long term on many areas.

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## The Raven

denel said:


> very much so. they are long gone after stealing like it was no man's business including their sponsor - our citizens want to see them locked up behind bars. Now they are busy scamming their way with Uzbek govt.
> 
> There needs to be serious engagement very long term on many areas.



My point was that if the PAF kept the H2/4 secret for the sake of the SA government to avoid Indian pressure, that is no longer the case today, especially given the fact that the PAF have effectively revealed it publicly now, so don't see the reason for the continued secrecy over the weapon.

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## Dazzler



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## hassan1



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## Clairvoyant

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 720477




Mirage 5 has two additional hard points on the sides of rear fuselage and each can carry a 500Ib pound,just that it's infrequently utilised in Paf.

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## mingle

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 720618
> View attachment 720619


It's French military attaché with PAF personal


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## Path-Finder

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Let's take a closer look at it but can't show the rest of the image ... so apologies in advance.
> 
> View attachment 720275


why not?


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## khanasifm

50 Glorious years of service of Mirage-3 & Mirage-5 in Pakistan Air Force. Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) has played the viral role to keeping them in air for five decades. PAF is the largest operator of Mirage-3 & 5 with more then a dozen variants.


2K views, 33 likes, 14 loves, 2 comments, 38 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from PAF Mirages: 50 Years of Mirage in Pakistan Air Force - PAF Documentary




fb.watch

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## Dazzler



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## Maxpane

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 720909
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 720910
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 720911


sir are we using it on jf 17 and f 16s?


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## Dazzler

Maxpane said:


> sir are we using it on jf 17 and f 16s?


Entire fleet
It also has a tracker and brightness control. A closer look

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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> 50 Glorious years of service of Mirage-3 & Mirage-5 in Pakistan Air Force. Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) has played the viral role to keeping them in air for five decades. PAF is the largest operator of Mirage-3 & 5 with more then a dozen variants.
> 
> 
> 2K views, 33 likes, 14 loves, 2 comments, 38 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from PAF Mirages: 50 Years of Mirage in Pakistan Air Force - PAF Documentary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fb.watch



clearly jf-17 out ranges mirages , at least confirmed in maritime role but spoken to few who said as rd-93 is more fuel efficient out classes fuel guzzler atra 9c by hundred of miles /km

jf and mirage share same capability via range extender kit and raad and h2/h4 ( can also be retired like South African and replaced by better weapons like chines g-6) will be added as well for jf to take over mirage roles and replacement after pg are replaced by first order of block. 3

expect another 100-120 jf to replace 6 mirage sqns, no need to replace 7th mirage sqn in ccs as mirage type will be gone and ccs already has jf

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## khanasifm

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 720909
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 720910
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 720911



The mirage rose II and iii nose mounted laser and ir finder provides day night picture in hud while Goggles provides all round night Vision for weapon delivery and night flying

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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> clearly jf-17 out ranges mirages , at least confirmed in maritime role but spoken to few who said as rd-93 is more fuel efficient out classes fuel guzzler atra 9c by hundred of miles /km
> 
> jf and mirage share same capability via range extender kit and raad and h2/h4 ( can also be retired like South African and replaced by better weapons like chines g-6) will be added as well for jf to take over mirage roles and replacement after pg are replaced by first order of block. 3
> 
> expect another 100-120 jf to replace 6 mirage sqns, no need to replace 7th mirage sqn in ccs as mirage type will be gone and ccs already has jf


range alos depends upon other characters like overall design, wing area and fuel capacity
rd 33 is ofcourse a turbofan engine and better then turbojet atr but whther jf17 outranges mirages I am not sure..

regardless, jf17 are still going to take on the multirole part and mriages will stay as bombers, where as f7s will be retired

mirages may well stay in till 2030

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## TheTallGuy

The Raven said:


> My point was that if the PAF kept the H2/4 secret for the sake of the SA government to avoid Indian pressure, that is no longer the case today, especially given the fact that the PAF have effectively revealed it publicly now, so don't see the reason for the continued secrecy over the weapon.



@denel 
May be because H2/H4 (Raptor 1/2) and (MUPSOW) Raad ALCM were starting point..may be (Raptor III) is the reason for the secrecy.

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## Talon

The Raven said:


> My point was that if the PAF kept the H2/4 secret for the sake of the SA government to avoid Indian pressure, that is no longer the case today, especially given the fact that the PAF have effectively revealed it publicly now, so don't see the reason for the continued secrecy over the weapon.


The weapon is under constant development

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## Kingslayerr

khanasifm said:


> clearly jf-17 out ranges mirages , at least confirmed in maritime role but spoken to few who said as rd-93 is more fuel efficient out classes fuel guzzler atra 9c by hundred of miles /km
> 
> jf and mirage share same capability via range extender kit and raad and h2/h4 ( can also be retired like South African and replaced by better weapons like chines g-6) will be added as well for jf to take over mirage roles and replacement after pg are replaced by first order of block. 3
> 
> expect another 100-120 jf to replace 6 mirage sqns, no need to replace 7th mirage sqn in ccs as mirage type will be gone and ccs already has jf


I doubt jf17 is going to replace Mirrages. If that was the case than PAF wouldn't be looking for a new fighter jet.


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## Nomad40

Kingslayerr said:


> I doubt jf17 is going to replace Mirrages. If that was the case than PAF wouldn't be looking for a new fighter jet.


PAF is not assessing fighters for strike role.


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## Kingslayerr

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> PAF is not assessing fighters for strike role.


Then why? To aid the F-16 fleet?


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## Nomad40

Kingslayerr said:


> Then why? To aid the F-16 fleet?


Hi,

This question is beyond me.

What I can tell you is that the claims are ambiguous some say to counter Rafael some say to Increase strength.


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## khanasifm

Kingslayerr said:


> I doubt jf17 is going to replace Mirrages. If that was the case than PAF wouldn't be looking for a new fighter jet.





Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Hi,
> 
> This question is beyond me.
> 
> What I can tell you is that the claims are ambiguous some say to counter Rafael some say to Increase strength.



Wait for it till it becomes public info from paf


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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force Mirage IIIDP ROSE I of No # 7 Sqn "Bandits" takes on fuel from an IL-78MP Midas while flying over rugged Sindh terrain.

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## Nomad40

khanasifm said:


> Wait for it till it becomes public info from paf


hopefully


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## air marshal



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## Metal 0-1

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 720909
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 720911


Seems like ANVIS-9 NVG's. Hope PAF will upgrade to ANVIS 10s PNVGs in limited amount.

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## ghazi52

.

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## Dazzler

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 721494
> 
> 
> 
> .



K-8 at Masroor


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## Dazzler



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## ghazi52

*Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography*

1tS3ptonhsoretdgSt ·

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## Windjammer



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## Nomad40

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 723648


She PHATT!


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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 723648


Can you please share again with out the circle ie clear pic


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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> Can you please share again with out the circle ie clear pic

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## Deltadart

PAF needs someone new with more flare and Imgination to do these commemorative art works on the tails etc. I see same old stuff over and over again.


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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 723687


Thanks, Previous pic was much clearer with circle


Windjammer said:


> View attachment 723687



so this is the draw back of this weapon need two aircraft one carrier single seat plus a dual seater with gibs for Manual guidance plus carrying data link pod but I guess it’s range and amount of tnt 🧨 compensate for it. Also good for feb 27 type where you can control it till the very end 

not a fire and forget type u less there is a version ??

South Africans did not adopt it for jas39 perhaps because they donot have a need


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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 723687


H2 or H4 standoff weapon.


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## denel

nomi007 said:


> H2 or H4 standoff weapon.


h4

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## ghazi52

H-4 (modified Denel Raptor II).

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## ghazi52

PAF pilots after an acceptance flight in Mirage-5DPA2 at Dassault Bordeaux plant – circa 1980. In the front seat is Shafiq Haider who later retired as an Air Marshal. 









.
[Picture Courtesy: Fahd Hasnat]

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## ghazi52

Mirage-IIIEA's 90-522 (In RAAF AKA A3-22)




Beauty Captured by Mr. S U Khan

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## ghazi52

College of Recce Birds

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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> College of Recce Birds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 724868


I'm debating whether to create a website with pictures of all PAF jets with their serial numbers or not. 
Will be hard to get all of A-5s and F-6 etc and am missing some Mirages too but might be worth it

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## Inception-06

GriffinsRule said:


> I'm debating whether to create a website with pictures of all PAF jets with their serial numbers or not.
> Will be hard to get all of A-5s and F-6 etc and am missing some Mirages too but might be worth it



Better a Book !


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## GriffinsRule

Inception-06 said:


> Better a Book !


A couple of years ago Alan Warnes had hinted on a book on PAF Mirages. Still waiting on that. 

I am hoping some PAF retired pilots would have taken up the mantle of memorializing the jet themselves. There is a splendid book on the Mirages in Belgian service that I have almost been tempted to buy but I didn't as it has nothing to do with PAF but I hope something of the sort will be published. 









The definitive book about the Mirage 5 in Belgium


News about Aviation in Belgium and related subjects focusing on restoration and historic subjects.




www.belgianaviationnews.be





I'm not in Pakistan nor have AF connections to get access or be able to get something of this quality published. But still wish to see something like this. Do we even have a Mirage pilot society in Pakistan? Some Mirage fan based facebook pages not counting..

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## Signalian

GriffinsRule said:


> Do we even have a Mirage pilot society in Pakistan?


Shorkot should be having one. Why don't they name Shorkot as Mirage-kot ?

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## ghazi52

Delta Boys

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## RAMPAGE

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 723648


What is that large missile on the Mirage on the left? Exocet?


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## araz

RAMPAGE said:


> What is that large missile on the Mirage on the left? Exocet?


H4 .
A

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## Windjammer

RAMPAGE said:


> What is that large missile on the Mirage on the left? Exocet?


A very novel French creation where weapons are attached to a drop tank, in this case, Cluster Bomb Units.

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## ghazi52

Mirage V

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## ghazi52

PAF Mirage-5PA3 photographed at the Dassault factory in Bordeaux-Mérignac prior to their ferry flight to Pakistan, Circa. 1987.

Pictures Copyright - Dassault Via Patrick Mercillon

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## ghazi52

#Echelon1

Mirage-IIIEP (No.5 Sqn), Mirage-VDD (No.27 Sqn), Mirage-VPA2 (No.8 Sqn), Mirage-VPA (CCS), Mirage-IIIEL (No.22), Mirage-VDP (No.27 Sqn)

#Echelon2

Mirage-IIIEA (No.7Sqn), Mirage-IIIDP (No.8 Sqn), Mirage-IIIDF (No.15 Sqn), Mirage-IIIRP (No.25 Sqn), Mirage-IIIDL (No.22Sqn)

#Echelon3

Mirage-VEF (No.25Sqn), Mirage-IIIDA (No.15Sqn), Mirage-VPA3 (No.8Sqn), Mirage-VDR (No.15Sqn)

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## Deltadart

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 726447
> 
> 
> #Echelon1
> 
> Mirage-IIIEP (No.5 Sqn), Mirage-VDD (No.27 Sqn), Mirage-VPA2 (No.8 Sqn), Mirage-VPA (CCS), Mirage-IIIEL (No.22), Mirage-VDP (No.27 Sqn)
> 
> #Echelon2
> 
> Mirage-IIIEA (No.7Sqn), Mirage-IIIDP (No.8 Sqn), Mirage-IIIDF (No.15 Sqn), Mirage-IIIRP (No.25 Sqn), Mirage-IIIDL (No.22Sqn)
> 
> #Echelon3
> 
> Mirage-VEF (No.25Sqn), Mirage-IIIDA (No.15Sqn), Mirage-VPA3 (No.8Sqn), Mirage-VDR (No.15Sqn)


Great pic.

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## khanasifm

Deltadart said:


> Great pic.



Looks photoshopped ??

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## Deltadart

khanasifm said:


> Looks photoshopped ??


Very possible.

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## ghazi52

It is photoshopped, it is to show all in one picture.

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## Trailer23

@Mirage Battle Commander @Windjammer @Hodor

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## Windjammer



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## nomi007

Trailer23 said:


> View attachment 727168​
> @Mirage Battle Commander @Windjammer @Hodor


Which type of helmet is this?


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## Trailer23

nomi007 said:


> Which type of helmet is this?


Helmet: *Gentex HGU-55*
O2 Mask: *MBU-20A/P*

More info:
:: PAF Helmets & Oxygen Masks ::

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 727558



That is by far the best air to air picture of PAF mirages there has ever been. Nce!


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Thunderous and venomous PAF Mirages landing and taking off from different bases.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

The Stand off Weapon Master - Gp Capt Faheem
Mirage-5EF ROSE-III from No 27 Sqn

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## ghazi52

*4 ship Mirage Formation From Sqn 27*

WC HAMMAD Khursheed Leader
SL Ramish Right Wing
SL Waleed Malik Left Wing
SL WAQAR Slot

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376485772690399233I counted:
-10× cluster munitions
-2×AAMs
-2×Drop Tanks.
Certainly it is irreplaceable...
But what if the drop tanks have to be dropped as 2×cluster munitions on each wing is attached to the drop tanks?

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## Maxpane

indeed impressive pay load


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## ghazi52

While on Mirage Conversion, Mont-de-Marsan, France, Jan '1968

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Don't look towards my age, Its deceiving.. Just a Number.

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## GriffinsRule

Don't think it has been posted here before. Well spoken Flt Lt and a one of the better interviews.

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## MastanKhan

ghazi52 said:


> Don't look towards my age, Its deceiving.. Just a Number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 729802



Just like me.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

He is lethal, he is sharp and most of all he is flown by a PAF professional.

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## Windjammer

Not many aircraft can replace the old faithful Mirages in their Bomb Truck role.
Here the type is carrying 10 CBU as well as two sidewinders and two drop tanks.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

The pioneers that brought these beauties home, some became future Chiefs of PAF.
(1) Wg Cdr MM Alam
(2) Sqn Ldr Hakeemullah
(3) Flt Lt Farooq Feroz Khan
(4) Flt Lt Rao Akhtar
(5) Flt Lt Farooq Umar
(6) Flt Lt Arif Manzoor

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## ali_raza

MastanKhan said:


> Just like me.


u r youngest here from attitude and thinking


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Windjammer said:


> Not many aircraft can replace the old faithful Mirages in their Bomb Truck role.


Agree, we have more than 150 of them plus some more in reserve. Hopefully we will get the Egyptian Horus as well. Can anyone count the number of bombs laden on this Bomb truck?




(This Mirage 5 may not be ours at the time the picture was taken, maybe joined our inventory later as we are the only global collectors!)

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## syed_yusuf

I think the time is right for paf to invest and upgrade 4 full mirage squadrons as a dedicated deep strike platform. I don't see them going away for next 10 years. To maintain 20 squadrons, paf need 4 full deep strike mirage squadrons complemented by 4 full f16 squadrons as we have today plus 12 JFT squadrons. Looking at this picture paf should think of rose5 upgrade to 82 mirage 5 available currently mirage5f, mirage pa, pa2 and pa3.

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## Saifullah

syed_yusuf said:


> I think the time is right for paf to invest and upgrade 4 full mirage squadrons as a dedicated deep strike platform. I don't see them going away for next 10 years. To maintain 20 squadrons, paf need 4 full deep strike mirage squadrons complemented by 4 full f16 squadrons as we have today plus 12 JFT squadrons. Looking at this picture paf should think of rose5 upgrade to 82 mirage 5 available currently mirage5f, mirage pa, pa2 and pa3.


What sort of improvement would you expect to see in mirage, which is already not there w.r.t being a bomb truck ?
Aircrafts is already been overhauled and being maintained.


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## syed_yusuf

Saifullah said:


> What sort of improvement would you expect to see in mirage, which is already not there w.r.t being a bomb truck ?
> Aircrafts is already been overhauled and being maintained.


Good question

I am driving , will post my details


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## Reichmarshal

Q. Why mirage 3 & 5 still serving in the PAF?........
Ans. majboori ka naam shukriya

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## Deltadart

Saifullah said:


> What sort of improvement would you expect to see in mirage, which is already not there w.r.t being a bomb truck ?
> Aircrafts is already been overhauled and being maintained.


The potential improvements to the mirages have been discussed to the death on this particular thread. However, PAF had made a conscious decision not to upgrade them beyond a certain point, and they must have valid reasons for doing so.


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## ghazi52

Father of Modern PAF , man of Vision

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## araz

ghazi52 said:


> Father of Modern PAF , man of Vision
> 
> 
> View attachment 730728


Yara.
Please dont put people on pedestals and start worshiping them. He did the work he came to do. We are grateful but we need to move on beyond that.
One of the ayemma probably Imam As Shaafai when praised in his presence said"if you knew my mistakes you would stone me to death". So while we are grateful to the ACM we need to move on.
A

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## Deltadart

araz said:


> Yara.
> Please dont put people on pedestals and start worshiping them. He did the work he came to do. We are grateful but we need to move on beyond that.
> One of the ayemma probably Imam As Shaafai when praised in his presence said"if you knew my mistakes you would stone me to death". So while we are grateful to the ACM we need to move on.
> A


He was a great visionary. Unfortunately, we don't have an independent think tank dedicated to air warfare, like in the US, where we could utilize the skills and experience of people like him.

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## Saifullah

Deltadart said:


> The potential improvements to the mirages have been discussed to the death on this particular thread. However, PAF had made a conscious decision not to upgrade them beyond a certain point, and they must have valid reasons for doing so.


Brother
if you had read my post, you would have understood that i was implying that as a bomb truck, which is gona remain for limited time, it doesn't need upgradation.

Also even if a subject has been debated previously doesn't mean it should not be debated again if it's done with good manners and to improve upon our ideas/solutions.

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## Basel

Windjammer said:


> Not many aircraft can replace the old faithful Mirages in their Bomb Truck role.
> Here the type is carrying 10 CBU as well as two sidewinders and two drop tanks.
> 
> View attachment 730088



We at least need latest gen IR AAM like IRS-T or ASRAAM (50km range max) with HMS if not HMD, it will boost fighting capabilities of all PAF fighter birds including Mirages and F-7PGs.

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## araz

Deltadart said:


> He was a great visionary. Unfortunately, we don't have an independent think tank dedicated to air warfare, like in the US, where we could utilize the skills and experience of people like him.


What has he done which is his own thought? A lot of decisions become pertinent with time as the facilities evolve. The real visionary was Mushaf Mir who by the simple act of decoupling avionics from engine made the whole journey of JFT Possible. You might say that Air university was Sohail Aman's baby but really what has actually been done that has made his tenure so amazing for you.
The tendency I am trying to point out is to put every new thing that is done as a visionary act in spite of the fact that the people behind it might be totally different. This is all a team effort. Sohail Amaan was a good presenter in my view who highlighted efforts which had become a necessity. 
He did his job well and I have great respect for him but I dont believe in people taking whole and sole credit for a team effort.
I hole you are understanding my point of view. 
Regards
A


Basel said:


> We at least need latest gen IR AAM like IRS-T or ASRAAM (50km range max) with HMS if not HMD, it will boost fighting capabilities of all PAF fighter birds including Mirages and F-7PGs.


It might be easier to integrate a Chinese missile like PL10E on the mirages. But then make an effort of 2-3yrs on a platform which is only going to be with us for 10 years and only has 5 HPs 2 of which are almost permanently occupied with drop tanks. The M3/5 may already have found its niche. I can point out that the IAF also utilized its M2kH fleet for the 26/02. Is there a trend and is there a reason for it? 
I think it is worth a thought.
A

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## Path-Finder

Is composite being used on these Mirages now? do we know!


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## Deltadart

araz said:


> What has he done which is his own thought? A lot of decisions become pertinent with time as the facilities evolve. The real visionary was Mushaf Mir who by the simple act of decoupling avionics from engine made the whole journey of JFT Possible. You might say that Air university was Sohail Aman's baby but really what has actually been done that has made his tenure so amazing for you.
> The tendency I am trying to point out is to put every new thing that is done as a visionary act in spite of the fact that the people behind it might be totally different. This is all a team effort. Sohail Amaan was a good presenter in my view who highlighted efforts which had become a necessity.
> He did his job well and I have great respect for him but I dont believe in people taking whole and sole credit for a team effort.
> I hole you are understanding my point of view.
> Regards
> A
> 
> It might be easier to integrate a Chinese missile like PL10E on the mirages. But then make an effort of 2-3yrs on a platform which is only going to be with us for 10 years and only has 5 HPs 2 of which are almost permanently occupied with drop tanks. The M3/5 may already have found its niche. I can point out that the IAF also utilized its M2kH fleet for the 26/02. Is there a trend and is there a reason for it?
> I think it is worth a thought.
> A


You make your point well.


Saifullah said:


> Brother
> if you had read my post, you would have understood that i was implying that as a bomb truck, which is gona remain for limited time, it doesn't need upgradation.
> 
> Also even if a subject has been debated previously doesn't mean it should not be debated again if it's done with good manners and to improve upon our ideas/solutions.


True, I mean if it serves to invent the wheel again, then it's fine to go over the same points, otherwise, some very knowledgeable folks have made their points of views known on this thread.

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## Sayfullah

khanasifm said:


> clearly jf-17 out ranges mirages , at least confirmed in maritime role but spoken to few who said as rd-93 is more fuel efficient out classes fuel guzzler atra 9c by hundred of miles /km



can Pakistan replace the engine in its mirages with a more fuel efficient engine and more powerful engine?


----------



## Deltadart

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> can Pakistan replace the engine in its mirages with a more fuel efficient engine and more powerful engine?


Simple answer, yes but with modifications............ This thread has over 4400 posts and all conceivable questions have been answered already. Please just go back and check.

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## Saifullah

Deltadart said:


> True, I mean if it serves to invent the wheel again, then it's fine to go over the same points, otherwise, some very knowledgeable folks have made their points of views known on this thread.


Brother you are welcomed to refrain from indulging in it and others have the right to discuss however they want it, till it's not off topic.
Jazāk Allāhu Khayran 😊


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## denel

Basel said:


> We at least need latest gen IR AAM like IRS-T or ASRAAM (50km range max) with HMS if not HMD, it will boost fighting capabilities of all PAF fighter birds including Mirages and F-7PGs.


This is all possible with basic HMS; but there was a decision not to use them because these birds were to be for strike only. However your point on PGs - as they are to be replaced with JF17s; - as I have said over and over again - not having HMD/S on JF-17 was a folly and it is hoped it is there for Blk3. With AESA + HMDS - this bird has reached its target of completion in overall functionality.

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## Basel

denel said:


> This is all possible with basic HMS; but there was a decision not to use them because these birds were to be for strike only. However your point on PGs - as they are to be replaced with JF17s; - as I have said over and over again - not having HMD/S on JF-17 was a folly and it is hoped it is there for Blk3. With AESA + HMDS - this bird has reached its target of completion in overall functionality.



My point is that, all those birds who carry IR AAMs must have latest one with HMS/HMD to get most out of them also will allow them better chance to tackle the enemy.


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## Path-Finder




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## python-000




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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

We are known for Surface attacks, ASV, Air Combat, Maritime Security and everything that comes in your mind.
~(Haiders)

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## araz

denel said:


> This is all possible with basic HMS; but there was a decision not to use them because these birds were to be for strike only. However your point on PGs - as they are to be replaced with JF17s; - as I have said over and over again - not having HMD/S on JF-17 was a folly and it is hoped it is there for Blk3. With AESA + HMDS - this bird has reached its target of completion in overall functionality.


@denel.
I think the problem was not the will but the availability. Some systems were not available to us and others were perhaps not considered for various reasons. We have had HMCS on the 16s but no HOBS as 9X was either denied or deemed not appropriate to ask for after initial enquiries. I am now told HMCS is part of block 3 and will possibly be inducted fleet wise. The utility is undoubtedly there BUT I suspect we needed to have BVR capability first so we acquired what was easily acquired and then went for the next stage. Better late than never.
A

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## denel

araz said:


> @denel.
> I think the problem was not the will but the availability. Some systems were not available to us and others were perhaps not considered for various reasons. We have had HMCS on the 16s but no HOBS as 9X was either denied or deemed not appropriate to ask for after initial enquiries. I am now told HMCS is part of block 3 and will possibly be inducted fleet wise. The utility is undoubtedly there BUT I suspect we needed to have BVR capability first so we acquired what was easily acquired and then went for the next stage. Better late than never.
> A


Actually araz boet, HMS was available and even recommended - it was same one that was on our Cheetahs and F1s and completely transferable; you had choosen the IFRs but I believe there was some payoff happening with Sagem who did not want competition to their work.
You must remember M3 and later F1s were the first to use our HMS system. We were on 3rd generation in Cheetah and upgraded F1AZ in 1991.

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## ghazi52

PAF Dassault Mirage-VEF ROSE II.

© Rana Suhaib Photography

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## araz

denel said:


> Actually araz boet, HMS was available and even recommended - it was same one that was on our Cheetahs and F1s and completely transferable; you had choosen the IFRs but I believe there was some payoff happening with Sagem who did not want competition to their work.
> You must remember M3 and later F1s were the first to use our HMS system. We were on 3rd generation in Cheetah and upgraded F1AZ in 1991.


I dont know why it was not chosen. The problem always is you never hear the true story from both sides. Perhaps the Chinesewanted to offer a combo deal of Pl10e plus local HMCS and sweetened it as they often do with eother local manufacturing of missiles or HMCS . Perhaps they created hurdles so it became difficult to integrate things together. The answer simply is we on the open forum do not know. Ido know that the South African HMCS has been ready for some time. Why did we simply go off all things from SA all of a sudden? Again did the Guptas create hurdles or was there a security risk? 
A

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## denel

araz said:


> I dont know why it was not chosen. The problem always is you never hear the true story from both sides. Perhaps the Chinesewanted to offer a combo deal of Pl10e plus local HMCS and sweetened it as they often do with eother local manufacturing of missiles or HMCS . Perhaps they created hurdles so it became difficult to integrate things together. The answer simply is we on the open forum do not know. Ido know that the South African HMCS has been ready for some time. Why did we simply go off all things from SA all of a sudden? Again did the Guptas create hurdles or was there a security risk?
> A


No Araz.

That time, gupta parasites were still in their flea infested flat in Fordsburg.

HMS especially on M3/F1/Cheetah has been our pride as we were the first to buid and use it. There would have been no issues. The only issue I know was there was French pressure not to engage with Atlas at the time; plus a lot of packets french can give to make sure they are heard. IFR - there was no choice so that had to be gotten from Atlas; next wings - Zero wings were also obtained from Atlas in benoni; similarly comms sets on the M's were also had from Grinel. 

My guess is the french convinced them to focus on strike missions only and ignore the HMS and they did not have it - the most likely excuse was it would be imcompatible - that is all BS, Sagem knew it well that it was independent. It was in my opinion a folly because it would have given you a first hand experience in this. Plus of course once you know it; you will make it as a standard for any future requirements.

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## Deltadart

Denel, unfortunately we don't have the caliber of independent think tanks that can make recommendations to the PAF, like they do in the US. So things like this happen a lot, without any expert over sight on such matters from outside of the paf.

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## denel

Deltadart said:


> Denel, unfortunately we don't have the caliber of independent think tanks that can make recommendations to the PAF, like they do in the US. So things like this happen a lot, without any expert over sight on such matters from outside of the paf.


As @Bilal Khan (Quwa) rightfully has pointed out in his last 3 posts on his website; the issues are very self evident.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Actually araz boet, HMS was available and even recommended - it was same one that was on our Cheetahs and F1s and completely transferable; you had choosen the IFRs but I believe there was some payoff happening with Sagem who did not want competition to their work.
> You must remember M3 and later F1s were the first to use our HMS system. We were on 3rd generation in Cheetah and upgraded F1AZ in 1991.


Hensoldt Optronics South Africa (HOSA) _could _work on a new HMD/S. Even if we consider the Archer HMS out-of-date, HOSA's expertise in the area is strong enough to carry forward towards a new solution similar to the JHMCS-2 or Thales Cobra. 

The PAF recently said that 'Pakistani and Chinese compnaies' are working on an HMD/S for the Block-3. It's possible that a private sector firm (e.g., Shibli) pulled a 'UAE' and bought out or contracted South African optronics expertise. The way the PAF made it sound, it looks like we'll develop and own IP for the HMD/S.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Hensoldt Optronics South Africa (HOSA) _could _work on a new HMD/S. Even if we consider the Archer HMS out-of-date, HOSA's expertise in the area is strong enough to carry forward towards a new solution similar to the JHMCS-2 or Thales Cobra.
> 
> The PAF recently said that 'Pakistani and Chinese compnaies' are working on an HMD/S for the Block-3. It's possible that a private sector firm (e.g., Shibli) pulled a 'UAE' and bought out or contracted South African optronics expertise. The way the PAF made it sound, it looks like we'll develop and own IP for the HMD/S.


Correct. It is very much doable and specific towards JF-17s only; whilst there is a challenge with Amscor/Denel corp future, there are internal rumours that Paramount may take over many components and very well to that point as well. For profit enterprises do far better than State ones.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Correct. It is very much doable and specific towards JF-17s only; whilst there is a challenge with Amscor/Denel corp future, there are internal rumours that Paramount may take over many components and very well to that point as well. For profit enterprises do far better than State ones.


Part of Pakistan's problem is that the SOEs are lumbering, so it's easy to miss things (e.g., HMD/S) when no one abroad is willing to supply it. 

This is why private sector involvement is key; the PAF could've said all the way back in 2005 (when it had originally listed HMD/S as a requirement for the Block-II), "we need an HMD/S" and the private sector could have figured it out. 

I'm not saying the private sector would've necessarily made it, but by moving fast, they could've linked with other firms to jointly design and produce it. 

Thankfully, someone within the establishment is becoming a champion for leasing out surplus SOE capacity to the private sector. The fact that the conversation has been on the table in Pakistan is a big thing. 

In terms of optronics specifically, I think Shibli (a private sector company) is holding the fort. It seems they're the top supplier for the armed forces (albeit with co-produced and/or licensed variants of foreign products). 

If they're given more of a free reign, I can see Shibli collaborating with HOSA, Aselsan and others to design and develop original solutions. HMD/S is undoubtedly a key area and Pakistan wouldn't be the only one to benefit from it as the Turks also have a need for one for their next-gen fighter.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Part of Pakistan's problem is that the SOEs are lumbering, so it's easy to miss things (e.g., HMD/S) when no one abroad is willing to supply it.
> 
> This is why private sector involvement is key; the PAF could've said all the way back in 2005 (when it had originally listed HMD/S as a requirement for the Block-II), "we need an HMD/S" and the private sector could have figured it out.
> 
> I'm not saying the private sector would've necessarily made it, but by moving fast, they could've linked with other firms to jointly design and produce it.
> 
> Thankfully, someone within the establishment is becoming a champion for leasing out surplus SOE capacity to the private sector. The fact that the conversation has been on the table in Pakistan is a big thing.
> 
> In terms of optronics specifically, I think Shibli (a private sector company) is holding the fort. It seems they're the top supplier for the armed forces (albeit with co-produced and/or licensed variants of foreign products).
> 
> If they're given more of a free reign, I can see Shibli collaborating with HOSA, Aselsan and others to design and develop original solutions. HMD/S is undoubtedly a key area and Pakistan wouldn't be the only one to benefit from it as the Turks also have a need for one for their next-gen fighter.


Private enterprise is key; allows for nurturing new ideas. The challenge which I have forseen always is weariness to have Chinese involvement because they steal IP and cannot be held accountable. Strict guidances have to be set. in any such future ventures.

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## Deltadart

It becomes a pleasure to take part in the discussions, not to mention a learning experience when @denel, @araz, and @bilal khan are part of any discussion here. Thx guys.

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## denel

Path-Finder said:


> Is composite being used on these Mirages now? do we know!


none what so ever.


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## ghazi52

Mirage-VDR (Ex-Libyan) Pakistan Air Force.

© Zohaib Malik

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## mshan44



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## ghazi52

Mirage-IIIRP "Reconnaissance Photographic".

© Awais Lali

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## Deltadart

ghazi52 said:


> Mirage-IIIRP "Reconnaissance Photographic".
> 
> © Awais Lali
> 
> 
> View attachment 732079


@denel do you think these recce can be turned into something like EA 18G Growlers? I don't know how useful they are in their current state, or of any upgrades to them. I think paf has sufficient number of these planes to warrant such a move...

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## denel

Deltadart said:


> @denel do you think these recons can be turned into something like EA 18G Growlers? I think paf has sufficient number of these planes to warrant such a move..


No friend, it is a matter on ROI. 

As we stated the entire platform needs to be taken apart. EW is extremely dangerous - you need shielding to start with. Plus also many key areas you need to reframe so that the EW emissions are optimal vs bouncing over. THe power EW units emit can fry the pilot inside out if not done right.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> No friend, it is a matter on ROI.
> 
> As we stated the entire platform needs to be taken apart. EW is extremely dangerous - you need shielding to start with. Plus also many key areas you need to reframe so that the EW emissions are optimal vs bouncing over. THe power EW units emit can fry the pilot inside out if not done right.


Thanks for the answer. So what improvements can be made in their current recce configuration?

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

Deltadart said:


> Thanks for the answer. So what improvements can be made in their current recon configuration?


Mirages don't carry out recce missions anymore

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirage-5EF ROSE-II 96-741
Night Strike Eagles

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## denel

CT-9914 "Snoop" said:


> Mirages don't carry out recce missions anymore


No, he asking what else can be done.

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## syed_yusuf

ghazi52 said:


> Mirage-IIIRP "Reconnaissance Photographic".
> 
> © Awais Lali
> 
> 
> View attachment 732079


Can these planes be recristined to a rose 3 role

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## ghazi52

Mirage 5PA3.

© Zohaib Malik

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1380468140748980224

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## nomi007



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## Windjammer



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## Scorpiooo

As PAF/PAC have much experience of in and out of airframe of mirages, they can easy recreates delta airframe based on mirages expertise offcouse having engine help avionics commonality with thandars or some additional stuff

They will become good source for future bumb trucks with commonality of thandars as cost effective solution and valuable replacement of mirages and even can be used in naval role


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## flameboard

Scorpiooo said:


> As PAF/PAC have much experience of in and out of airframe of mirages, they can easy recreates delta airframe based on mirages expertise offcouse having engine help avionics commonality with thandars or some additional stuff
> 
> They will become good source for future bumb trucks with commonality of thandars as cost effective solution and valuable replacement of mirages and even can be used in naval role



Did some research. Pakistan has already made some licence built Mirage jets. ROSE is a financially wiser decision that making more. Now with the JF-17 in place, I doubt the'res much interest in rebuilding an outdated frame. 

It would likely be an upgraded version or a completely different bird if PAF inducts new deltas

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## syed_yusuf

Scorpiooo said:


> As PAF/PAC have much experience of in and out of airframe of mirages, they can easy recreates delta airframe based on mirages expertise offcouse having engine help avionics commonality with thandars or some additional stuff
> 
> They will become good source for future bumb trucks with commonality of thandars as cost effective solution and valuable replacement of mirages and even can be used in naval role


Good point , I simply don't understand why Pakistan made new mirage airframe


flameboard said:


> Did some research. Pakistan has already made some licence built Mirage jets. ROSE is a financially wiser decision that making more. Now with the JF-17 in place, I doubt the'res much interest in rebuilding an outdated frame.
> 
> It would likely be an upgraded version or a completely different bird if PAF inducts new deltas


When did Pakistan made mirage jets ?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

These PAF Mirages, thanks to 02/27, are like the Messenger of Death to India for the following projections:

The Indian strategic assets can indeed be taken out in the first round (long range stealthy CMs are there for a reason) once the Pak human intelligence is counted in
If the _Beni Israil_ have failed to bail the Indians out no _Kavum_ under the sun can do it
If PAF can make so much out of the 50+ years old mirages what it can extract out of the modern platforms!
The Indians must be in a panic mode

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## flameboard

syed_yusuf said:


> When did Pakistan made mirage jets ?


I was WRONG it’s in PAC Wikipedia page but the source that’s quoted doesn’t have anything to back this up

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## Scorpiooo

flameboard said:


> Did some research. Pakistan has already made some licence built Mirage jets. ROSE is a financially wiser decision that making more. Now with the JF-17 in place, I doubt the'res much interest in rebuilding an outdated frame.
> 
> It would likely be an upgraded version or a completely different bird if PAF inducts new deltas


Agree Mirage air frame is 5 decade old, but still effective and super cruises, we dont simply need to clone them we can modify as of todays need, PAC know pros and cons then air frame to max, remaining we can use commonality of our thandars , same avionics weaponry even some sort new Chinese engine or sibling of RD 33/93


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## ghazi52

PAF Mirage , 53 Years Old Bird Still young to perform Duty ...

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## flameboard

Scorpiooo said:


> Agree Mirage air frame is 5 decade old, but still effective and super cruises, we dont simply need to clone them we can modify as of todays need, PAC know pros and cons then air frame to max, remaining we can use commonality of our thandars , same avionics weaponry even some sort new Chinese engine or sibling of RD 33/93


Yeah super cruise or birds that can easily reach Mach 2+ such as the mirage are important, but the airframe needs major upgrades too like currently Pakistani Mirages fly with hydraulic systems rather than fly-by-wire

Pakistan would want to build something like the Mirage 2000 which means building an entirely new support environment. We’ve seen India get carried away with this idea and result in the Tejas disaster.

I do agree that making an airframe as close as possible to the current Mirage 3 or 5 standard is an interesting idea and if the current airframes still offer something then a jugar airframe may be worth looking into.

It’s probably a better investment to ask allies for dirt cheap prices for Mirage 2000s and spend the money or supporting infrastructure.

Project Azn seems to be exploring Delta wing design options so they might be interested in killing two birds with one stone

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## Windjammer

Golden Jubilee of Mirage Ceremony Being Held at an Operational Base.

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## ghazi52

Dassault Mirage VEF at PAC

© Aamir Qureshi

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## MIRauf

Scorpiooo said:


> Agree Mirage air frame is 5 decade old, but still effective and *super cruises*, we dont simply need to clone them we can modify as of todays need, PAC know pros and cons then air frame to max, remaining we can use commonality of our thandars , same avionics weaponry even some sort new Chinese engine or sibling of RD 33/93


Yes the M-III/V are effective but this Gas Guzzler can hardly Super Cruise. Currently there is nothing in the Inventory of PAF that can "Super Cruise."

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## Scorpiooo

MIRauf said:


> Yes the M-III/V are effective but this Gas Guzzler can hardly Super Cruise. Currently there is nothing in the Inventory of PAF that can "Super Cruise."


That the problem, thandars have limited role and capacity cant replace role of mirages completely


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## ghazi52

Mirage-IIIEA (Ex-Australian)

© Syed Zohaib Zaidi

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

The Golden Jubilee Tail.

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## denel

flameboard said:


> I was WRONG it’s in PAC Wikipedia page but the source that’s quoted doesn’t have anything to back this up
> View attachment 733346


There was no licence built Mirages; just overhaul.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> There was no licence built Mirages; just overhaul.


Denel, the point being missed here over and over again is that PAF never wanted to continue with the mirages, but has been forced by the circumstances to minimally upgrade them. Like you have said on many occasions that, Had they been interested in the 90s, paf could have started manufacturing cheetahs in collaboration with south africa. That train left the station decades ago. PAF always wanted to build their force around f16s, rightly so, but it was a pipe dream at best, and never to be fully realized....and that made paf oblivious of other fighter priorities. We could have had two types of locally made jets by now.

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## denel

Deltadart said:


> Denel, the point being missed here over and over again is that PAF never wanted to continue with the mirages, but has been forced by the circumstances to minimally upgrade them. Like you have said on many occasions that, Had they been interested in the 90s, paf could have started manufacturing cheetahs in collaboration with south africa. That train left the station decades ago. PAF always wanted to build their force around f16s, rightly so, but it was a pipe dream at best, and never to be fully realized....and that made paf oblivious of other fighter priorities. We could have had two types of locally made jets by now.


absolutely - when @ghazi52 and @Windjammer post photos of some really battered M3s or 5s' you can see the overall cobblework. It just goes to point what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) notes in his last posts - a total malaise which has bred incompetence and inability to see the future. Now, what concerns me more is the post if you criticise your armed forces, that will put you behind bars; this is incomprehensible as it is a slippery slope imo..Any honest view point can be misused.

Think of it another way; HMS - yes a lot has evolved but put yourself back then, HMS was on the Cheetah long before even F16s had them. Kukri AAMs/Darter with their slaving head seekers were far ahead; you would have had the ability to have homegrown knowledge on sensors too. Too much lost imo.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> absolutely - when @ghazi52 and @Windjammer post photos of some really battered M3s or 5s' you can see the overall cobblework. It just goes to point what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) notes in his last posts - a total malaise which has bred incompetence and inability to see the future. Now, what concerns me more is the post if you criticise your armed forces, that will put you behind bars; this is incomprehensible as it is a slippery slope imo..Any honest view point can be misused.
> 
> Think of it another way; HMS - yes a lot has evolved but put yourself back then, HMS was on the Cheetah long before even F16s had them. Kukri AAMs/Darter with their slaving head seekers were far ahead; you would have had the ability to have homegrown knowledge on sensors too. Too much lost imo.


The sanctified status of the armed forces comes from the malaise (which is worse) of the politicians.

I'd say the damage Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did to the industrial sector with Mugabe-style nationalization policies had hemorrhaged the economy at its core. So, with a record like that, I would never trust the political class of the country. These selfish and/or racist fools must go, full-stop.

However, the problem with the armed forces isn't just that they're butting in, but that they're adding to the problem instead of trying to solve it. So, instead of removing the malicious political class, we have policies like NRO that restored and enshrined them, for example.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The sanctified status of the armed forces comes from the malaise (which is worse) of the politicians.
> 
> I'd say the damage Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did to the industrial sector with Mugabe-style nationalization policies had hemorrhaged the economy at its core. So, with a record like that, I would never trust the political class of the country. These selfish and/or racist fools must go, full-stop.
> 
> However, the problem with the armed forces isn't just that they're budding in, but that they're adding to the problem instead of trying to solve it. So, instead of removing the malicious political class, we have policies like NRO that restored and enshrined them, for example.


correct. they are creating a self inflicting circular logic which your country will never get out of. It is similar to what Turkey went thru and it took them nearly 80 yrs to come out after the damage done to entire institutions and populus at large. Anyway, let us see how time deals with this.

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## Deltadart

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The sanctified status of the armed forces comes from the malaise (which is worse) of the politicians.
> 
> I'd say the damage Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did to the industrial sector with Mugabe-style nationalization policies had hemorrhaged the economy at its core. So, with a record like that, I would never trust the political class of the country. These selfish and/or racist fools must go, full-stop.
> 
> However, the problem with the armed forces isn't just that they're budding in, but that they're adding to the problem instead of trying to solve it. So, instead of removing the malicious political class, we have policies like NRO that restored and enshrined them, for example.


They should end these dasterdly NROs, which is essentially rewarding them for looting And plundering the country by any means possible. Same scoundrels and now their evil off springs treating this nation like their personal estate to abuse....and those who grant these NROs are even worse keeping this revolving door open.


denel said:


> absolutely - when @ghazi52 and @Windjammer post photos of some really battered M3s or 5s' you can see the overall cobblework. It just goes to point what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) notes in his last posts - a total malaise which has bred incompetence and inability to see the future. Now, what concerns me more is the post if you criticise your armed forces, that will put you behind bars; this is incomprehensible as it is a slippery slope imo..Any honest view point can be misused.
> 
> Think of it another way; HMS - yes a lot has evolved but put yourself back then, HMS was on the Cheetah long before even F16s had them. Kukri AAMs/Darter with their slaving head seekers were far ahead; you would have had the ability to have homegrown knowledge on sensors too. Too much lost imo.


While others were upgrading or modifying their mirages, we were just happy with the plain jane planes we got from france. No new engines, avionics, canards etc were ever tried. Money would have been made availabile, if there was a desire on the part of the PAF to take them further in abilities. Yes we got rose upgrades, and some other gadgets, but we could have had advanced abilities, as you stated above. Heck, we are even scared to try our own paint schemes on our planes, always copies of others. But then we were always expecting planes to come magically from sources that don't want us to have advanced abilities to defend ourselves.

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## MIRauf

BP was rapi.g Pak Fex by way of fees for finding, extracting and supplying that (Sui ) Gas, not defending all of ZAB's actions, Pak likely would still be paying for Sui Gas long after the reserves have had exhausted.

Kuwait nationalized it's oil fields, refineries and infrastructure, guess what ? till GW-I and or GW-2 they were doing great, untill the rap.... of their $ started. It's just shortsightedness of select Pak folks, and that's quite few as far as #'s go.

PS: Sorry, didn't mean to write a long thesis on this, ( aka rant ), but couldn't pen it all down in "Cliff Notes."

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## m52k85

denel said:


> correct. they are creating a self inflicting circular logic which your country will never get out of. It is similar to what Turkey went thru and it took them nearly 80 yrs to come out after the damage done to entire institutions and populus at large. Anyway, let us see how time deals with this.


Hi have been reading your posts for many years now, if i may, just curious, are you a Pakistani whos now living in SA or a South African who once worked in Pakistan?


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## denel

m52k85 said:


> Hi have been reading your posts for many years now, if i may, just curious, are you a Pakistani whos now living in SA or a South African who once worked in Pakistan?


No to either of the questions; i started to follow Pak back in the early 80's when my dearest late friend Jamal went to Pak to study engineering. But so happened some of the work i did landed up in Pak.

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## m52k85

denel said:


> No to either of the questions; i started to follow Pak back in the early 80's when my dearest late friend Jamal went to Pak to study engineering. But so happened some of the work i did landed up in Pak.


In that case thanks for being such a staunch friend of Pakistan even though you had no reason to be.

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## denel

m52k85 said:


> In that case thanks for being such a staunch friend of Pakistan even though you had no reason to be.


man i hope you guys can sort out your consulate officials in this country. I will then defnitely visit.

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## TNT

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The sanctified status of the armed forces comes from the malaise (which is worse) of the politicians.
> 
> I'd say the damage Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did to the industrial sector with Mugabe-style nationalization policies had hemorrhaged the economy at its core. So, with a record like that, I would never trust the political class of the country. These selfish and/or racist fools must go, full-stop.
> 
> However, the problem with the armed forces isn't just that they're butting in, but that they're adding to the problem instead of trying to solve it. So, instead of removing the malicious political class, we have policies like NRO that restored and enshrined them, for example.



Off topic but u r just passing the blame. Who do think bred and brought this political class upon us? From butto to benazir zardari, nawaz and all were propped by the military establishment. Who gave NRO? A military dictator. 
In my opinion, a genuine political leadership have never been let to evolve and mature in Pakistan. And as a result we have greedy traitors.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

TNT said:


> Off topic but u r just passing the blame. Who do think bred and brought this political class upon us? From butto to benazir zardari, nawaz and all were propped by the military establishment. Who gave NRO? A military dictator.
> In my opinion, a genuine political leadership have never been let to evolve and mature in Pakistan. And as a result we have greedy traitors.


I'm just explaining why the military has a sanctified position. But I agree with you. However, the issue is far worse than not having a genuine political leadership evolve. We never had a genuinely independent leadership at all. They were all inherently compromised at some level, hence they never had legitimacy with every stakeholder or group in the country.

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## denel

m52k85 said:


> In that case thanks for being such a staunch friend of Pakistan even though you had no reason to be.


I made really good friends with your late Rab Nawaz - he was ambassador posted in Dar in 1982 - I was invited by him and his wife. Stayed with him at their residence. Amazing guy. We spent a lot of time discussing into the night; one thing was very clear at the time - our fleet of aircrafts were very similar - the need was very much the same; at the time, i mentioned to him HMS system and radio comms we had pioneered and on our aircraft. He looked totally baffled, I explained how the head on the seeker was slaved to the helmet. I remember his words - my boy if we had this in our aircraft we could turn tables on anyone. I was still working on a new IP for telemetry at the time; just in passing had mentioned how much of a use it could have had. He kept saying noone tells us what new frontiers we can go into - it was very much a closed mindset towards what the French or Americans would pass along. Casing point to complete independence in R&D.

Anyway, great life long friendships - met his son who later passed away in the air crash. Still have his book - Journey Thru Pakistan - when he found it was done my late friend M.Amin, he was even surprised. I had lost touch with him in 1992.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> I made really good friends with your late Rab Nawaz - he was ambassador posted in Dar in 1982 - I was invited by him and his wife. Stayed with him at their residence. Amazing guy. We spent a lot of time discussing into the night; one thing was very clear at the time - our fleet of aircrafts were very similar - the need was very much the same; at the time, i mentioned to him HMS system and radio comms we had pioneered and on our aircraft. He looked totally baffled, I explained how the head on the seeker was slaved to the helmet. I remember his words - my boy if we had this in our aircraft we could turn tables on anyone. I was still working on a new IP for telemetry at the time; just in passing had mentioned how much of a use it could have had. He kept saying noone tells us what new frontiers we can go into - it was very much a closed mindset towards what the French or Americans would pass along. Casing point to complete independence in R&D.
> 
> Anyway, great life long friendships - met his son who later passed away in the air crash. Still have his book - Journey Thru Pakistan - when he found it was done my late friend M.Amin, he was even surprised. I had lost touch with him in 1992.


I wish someone in PAF is reading about your encounter with Rab Nawaz, and your general observations about them. This stagnant thinking pattern hasn't changed much even in todays PAF.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Mirage III from No.7 Sqn Bandits*

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## Caprxl

Deltadart said:


> This stagnant thinking pattern hasn't changed much even todays PAF



I would beg to differ on this, though not likes of USA/European But a lot has changed & is bearing fruits for PAF & will do so in coming years. Still, I agree, there is much more to be changed & adapted to.

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## Deltadart

Caprxl said:


> I would beg to differ on this, though not likes of USA/European But a lot has changed & is bearing fruits for PAF & will do so in coming years. Still, I agree, there is much more to be changed & adapted to.


...... this momentum has to continue, because the adversary is getting the full support of the greatest technological powers of today. PAF will be tested in the coming days, and we should always keep them in our prayers.

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## Caprxl

Deltadart said:


> ...... this momentum has to continue, because the adversary is getting the full support of the greatest technological powers of today. PAF will be tested in the coming days, and we should always keep them in our prayers.



Agreed brother, agreed.


----------



## ghazi52

Mirage-III (Ex-Labenese).

© Awais Lali

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## ghazi52

A Pakistan Air Force Mirage IIIEA armed with x2 AIM-9 IR missiles

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## Gripen9

denel said:


> I made really good friends with your late Rab Nawaz - he was ambassador posted in Dar in 1982 - I was invited by him and his wife. Stayed with him at their residence. Amazing guy. We spent a lot of time discussing into the night; one thing was very clear at the time - our fleet of aircrafts were very similar - the need was very much the same; at the time, i mentioned to him HMS system and radio comms we had pioneered and on our aircraft. He looked totally baffled, I explained how the head on the seeker was slaved to the helmet. I remember his words - my boy if we had this in our aircraft we could turn tables on anyone. I was still working on a new IP for telemetry at the time; just in passing had mentioned how much of a use it could have had. He kept saying noone tells us what new frontiers we can go into - it was very much a closed mindset towards what the French or Americans would pass along. Casing point to complete independence in R&D.
> 
> Anyway, great life long friendships - met his son who later passed away in the air crash. Still have his book - Journey Thru Pakistan - when he found it was done my late friend M.Amin, he was even surprised. I had lost touch with him in 1992.


A/Cdr Rab Nawaz? Was he Air Defence?


----------



## denel

Gripen9 said:


> A/Cdr Rab Nawaz? Was he Air Defence?


Yes. I think if my memory serves me, he showed me around 20 types of aircraft he had flown; he said his best were sea fury and f-86.





__





Service Record for Air Vice Marshal Chaudhry Rab Nawaz 3336 GD(P) at Bharat Rakshak.com


Air Vice Marshal Chaudhry Rab Nawaz 3336 was commissioned in GD(P) Branch on 29 Apr 1946 Click on Link or Image to view full record



www.bharat-rakshak.com





This is him. I am surprised to see him on indian site. It would be great to get his biography. Amazing gentleman, an honour to have been his guest and friend.

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## Yasser76

denel said:


> Yes. I think if my memory serves me, he showed me around 20 types of aircraft he had flown; he said his best were sea fury and f-86.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Service Record for Air Vice Marshal Chaudhry Rab Nawaz 3336 GD(P) at Bharat Rakshak.com
> 
> 
> Air Vice Marshal Chaudhry Rab Nawaz 3336 was commissioned in GD(P) Branch on 29 Apr 1946 Click on Link or Image to view full record
> 
> 
> 
> www.bharat-rakshak.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is him. I am surprised to see him on indian site. It would be great to get his biography. Amazing gentleman, an honour to have been his guest and friend.




Any reason we are linking to BR? It's a horrid Islamaphobic site.

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## denel

Yasser76 said:


> Any reason we are linking to BR? It's a horrid Islamaphobic site.


did not find any bio for him. I was too surprised to see him mentioned there.


----------



## Euro fighter

Amazing looking fighter. Aboslute legend in PAF 





But the airframe and design is looking tired

With the Thunders replacing F7 what is the plan replacing these.

Ideally surely a european bird to keep western chinease mix

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## mingle

Euro fighter said:


> Amazing looking fighter. Aboslute legend in PAF
> View attachment 735918
> 
> 
> But the airframe and design is looking tired
> 
> With the Thunders replacing F7 what is the plan replacing these.
> 
> Ideally surely a european bird to keep western chinease mix


In ideal life EF but U never know


----------



## krash

Desert Fox 1 said:


> But what if the drop tanks have to be dropped as 2×cluster munitions on each wing is attached to the drop tanks?



If the situation demands jettisoning the drop tanks, then it would most probably also demand jettisoning the A2G munitions anyway.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirage-3EL (00-908) from No.22 OCU Squadron.

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## Scorpiooo

Still very stylish and effective jet. ..

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## Scorpiooo

Euro fighter said:


> Err do you not think the airframe looks very tired
> 
> This is proper mirage
> View attachment 739251
> 
> 
> or
> 
> View attachment 739252
> 
> 
> Just look at the difference in aiframe build and quality.
> You may service and overhaul but it really is needs must AND not ideal


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## iLION12345_1

Euro fighter said:


> Err do you not think the airframe looks very tired
> 
> This is proper mirage
> View attachment 739251
> 
> 
> or
> 
> View attachment 739252
> 
> 
> Just look at the difference in aiframe build and quality.
> You may service and overhaul but it really is needs must AND not ideal


You can’t just look at an airframe and go “this looks tired”, our mirages look nearly new in most cases.

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## White and Green with M/S

Euro fighter said:


> Err do you not think the airframe looks very tired
> 
> This is proper mirage
> View attachment 739251
> 
> 
> or
> 
> View attachment 739252
> 
> 
> Just look at the difference in aiframe build and quality.
> You may service and overhaul but it really is needs must AND not ideal


This is Pakistani mirage upgrade thread can you stop posting irrelevant pics on to this thread, hank you

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## Primus

Euro fighter said:


> Err do you not think the airframe looks very tired
> 
> This is proper mirage
> View attachment 739251
> 
> 
> or
> 
> View attachment 739252
> 
> 
> Just look at the difference in aiframe build and quality.
> You may service and overhaul but it really is needs must AND not ideal


Yea those mirage 2k were so good, they ran away with their tails between their legs on 27th of Feb [emoji6]

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## denel

Huffal said:


> Yea those mirage 2k were so good, they ran away with their tails between their legs on 27th of Feb [emoji6]


wait.... i could not help reply.... it is not the M2K that ran... it was the pilots driving M2K.

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## Primus

denel said:


> wait.... i could not help reply.... it is not the M2K that ran... it was the pilots driving M2K.


You still get the point


----------



## Maarkhoor

denel said:


> it was the pilots *driving *M2K.


Flying I guess, but driving also could be applied for Tejas


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Banking Hard

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## khanasifm



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## ghazi52

Delta Formation

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## ghazi52

Mirage VPA2.

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## ghazi52



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirage Conversion Course Completion

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirage-3DL and OCU Boys.

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## The Raven

The Mirage III/V is one of those rare girls who just keeps getting better looking with age...which is a lot more than can be said of the human variety.

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## araz

The Raven said:


> The Mirage III/V is one of those rare girls who just keeps getting better looking with age...which is a lot more than can be said of the human variety.


It isnot so much its beauty but the fact that it has fitted into a niche role for PAF where it is perfect, cheap and cheerful.
A

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## Philip the Arab

This has probably been posted here, but if not here you go.

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## GriffinsRule

Philip the Arab said:


> This has probably been posted here, but if not here you go.
> 
> View attachment 744831
> 
> 
> View attachment 744829
> 
> 
> View attachment 744830
> 
> 
> View attachment 744828


Great info!

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## Philip the Arab

@GriffinsRule 
This might sound crazy, but PAF might buy weapon upgrades for Mirages from the UAE if they think they need them. Denel Dynamics as it stands is dead, most engineers left and many have gone to the UAE.

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## GriffinsRule

Philip the Arab said:


> @GriffinsRule
> This might sound crazy, but PAF might buy weapon upgrades for Mirages from the UAE if they think they need them. Denel Dynamics as it stands is dead, most engineers left and many have gone to the UAE.


Nothing wrong with that but nice to see the info graphic to show how the weapon is deployed. So informative in that regard.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Love both of you, pride of the nation.❤*

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## Philip the Arab

Some more goodies related to Raptor 1 from 1988

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## Sine Nomine

Philip the Arab said:


> . Denel Dynamics as it stands is dead, most engineers left and many have gone to the UAE.


@denel

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## Philip the Arab

Sine Nomine said:


> @denel


I have discussed this with him, he knows it is dead and many of his colleagues are working in the UAE.


----------



## khanasifm

Paf never fired one in 71 or ever in-fact I read in some case they were jettison to get weight off 






Launch parameters made it not use fuel in combat conditions ??


----------



## maverick1977

khanasifm said:


> Paf never fired one in 71 or ever in-fact I read in some case they were jettison to get weight off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Launch parameters made it not use fuel in combat conditions ??


what is it ?


----------



## Gripen9

khanasifm said:


> Paf never fired one in 71 or ever in-fact I read in some case they were jettison to get weight off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Launch parameters made it not use fuel in combat conditions ??



I believe one was fired but the pilot had to break lock.

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## ghazi52

Can You Handle It? Because It Take Guts to be up There.

Your Passion is Waiting Your Courage to Catch Up...!

Courtesy: Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography

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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Paf never fired one in 71 or ever in-fact I read in some case they were jettison to get weight off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Launch parameters made it not use fuel in combat conditions ??


Long long time ago, this is from my predecessor/mentor - they had evaluated R530 for F1AZ/III's but found the performance was not to the mark; it was decided not to pursue any of these as they were highly prone to ECMs. Super R530 was different though.

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## ghazi52

Million $ Smile

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## denel

Philip the Arab said:


> This has probably been posted here, but if not here you go.
> 
> View attachment 744831
> 
> 
> View attachment 744829
> 
> 
> View attachment 744830
> 
> 
> View attachment 744828


one of the later improvements is the ability to add additional targets and prioritise based on closer to target. that priority can be choosen by the systems officer in flight.


Philip the Arab said:


> I have discussed this with him, he knows it is dead and many of his colleagues are working in the UAE.


Actually a lot have moved to Aerosud. Some of the munition specialists went over to UAE. A couple went to KSA. However CSIR still remains where a lot of work either from UAE or KSA still gets done and testing is done here.

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## Philip the Arab

denel said:


> one of the later improvements is the ability to add additional targets and prioritise based on closer to target. that priority can be choosen by the systems officer in flight.


Is RSA still developing anything for PAF or is that over? Denel Dynamics is klaar but there are others that will rise from its ashes.


denel said:


> Actually a lot have moved to Aerosud. Some of the munition specialists went over to UAE. A couple went to KSA. However CSIR still remains where a lot of work either from UAE or KSA still gets done and testing is done here.


A company called Incomar is interesting, seems they took a lot of Denel Dyanmics engineers as well. ANC is the one that caused the demise of Denel, but the South African defense industry was unsustainable imo after the Apartheid and the war in Angola ended.

South Africa is an underrated country that you can gain a lot from, it is like ex Soviet states like Ukraine that have a lot of underutilized technologies from the Soviet era.


----------



## denel

Philip the Arab said:


> Is RSA still developing anything for PAF or is that over? Denel Dynamics is klaar but there are others that will rise from its ashes.
> 
> A company called Incomar is interesting, seems they took a lot of Denel Dyanmics engineers as well. ANC is the one that caused the demise of Denel, but the South African defense industry was unsustainable imo after the Apartheid and the war in Angola ended.
> 
> South Africa is an underrated country that you can gain a lot from, it is like ex Soviet states like Ukraine that have a lot of underutilized technologies from the Soviet era.


RSA is not developing anything for Pak. Pak lost every opportunity to engage and take next steps; my thoughts are well known on multiple fronts.

Not correct InComar has been run independently for a long time; they run an entire instrumentation, callibration, testing process which many players use.

I forsee our independent players taking a huge role as they know how to step the game up. Plenty of orders already from central asian countries.

In a way it is good; i worked at pre-Reutech; it was excellent. Some of my colleagues went off on their own - in Namibia established a mil spec player for comms; other stayed back and worked on Namibian mineproof vehicles. The failure of ANC to capitalise - letting dogs like Zuma and Guptas who killed entire departments by stealing left right. They should have been buried in the ground and keys thrown away. Sorry pals, i have severe hatred of these indians and ANC for what they have done plus the chinese who collaborated with them on massive ponzie schemes.

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## Philip the Arab

PAF why didn't you take this option? 


The reason for lowering Raptor III's weight to under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons) is that it will dramatically open up their potential to fit and therefore ability to sell it onto many other aircraft types (it sounded like there were other/new interested parties).

It could have been a perfect SOW for JF-17s and Mirages

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## Talon

Philip the Arab said:


> PAF why didn't you take this option?
> 
> 
> The reason for lowering Raptor III's weight to under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons) is that it will dramatically open up their potential to fit and therefore ability to sell it onto many other aircraft types (it sounded like there were other/new interested parties).
> 
> It could have been a perfect SOW for JF-17s and Mirages
> 
> View attachment 748174
> 
> 
> View attachment 748175
> 
> 
> View attachment 748177


Dont worry

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## Bilal.

Philip the Arab said:


> PAF why didn't you take this option?
> 
> 
> The reason for lowering Raptor III's weight to under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons) is that it will dramatically open up their potential to fit and therefore ability to sell it onto many other aircraft types (it sounded like there were other/new interested parties).
> 
> It could have been a perfect SOW for JF-17s and Mirages
> 
> View attachment 748174
> 
> 
> View attachment 748175
> 
> 
> View attachment 748177


At that time priority was shifted to RAAD program.


----------



## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Sayfullah

After these mirages are retired are they going to be put in a storage or something so when war happens we can use them?


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## iLION12345_1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> After these mirages are retired are they going to be put in a storage or something so when war happens we can use them?


Maybe some will be kept in reserve but it’s unlikely, by the time they are retired they will be at the very very end of their fuselages life cycles, flying them would be a risk.

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## Ghessan

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> After these mirages are retired are they going to be put in a storage or something so when war happens we can use them?



have mercy on pilots and fighter itself.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Combat Commanders




Ex Aussie with ROSE-I Upgrade and IFRP

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

FCF of Mirage-5DR (Ex-Libyan) from No.15 Sqn

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 750635



Beautifully maintained - compare the above with the Mig21s of the IAF that were purchased at the same time and how the Indians looked after them !!!

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Heroes get remembered, but legends never die.

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## ghazi52

Mirage-IIIEA "Combat Commander School".

© Hamza A. Mughal - Aviation Photography

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

ᴍɪʀᴀɢᴇ ᴀɴᴅ ɪᴛ's ᴏᴘᴇʀᴀᴛᴏʀ

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## denel

ghazi52 said:


> Mirage-IIIEA "Combat Commander School".
> 
> © Hamza A. Mughal - Aviation Photography
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754040


seeing these birds is like seeing your first girlfriend  = you never forget her.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

PAF Mirage 3-RP (75-211) with H-4 SOW EOGB

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## litman

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 751882


I have a question regarding weapons carried by mirages. In this pic and in many others we often see an AIM 9 on a mirage. are they fitted for only photoshoot or training purposes? because in a real modern war our mirages can only perform strike missions. As per kaiser tufail the best option for a mirage pilot in a dog fight is to escape because it will lose to any other fighter. Arming a close combat missile on a BVR less and not so agile air craft seems to be wasting a missile and a hard point (if PAF uses this configuration in a war which is unlikely though). In 71 PAF used mirages in mixed roles. Some armed with air to ground munitions and others with air to air missiles for defending the strikers but that was long time ago. Today IMO mirages will perform strike role close to the border being escorted by JFTs and F16s. So PAF should train the mirage pilots only in air to ground roles as in air to air role today it is highly unlikely that a mirage will survive against any type of front line fighter in IAF no matter how hard we have trained our pilots.


----------



## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> PAF Mirage 3-RP (75-211) with H-4 SOW EOGB
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 754945



Mirages with no ai radar version carry older rear aspect aim-9ps Rest all assets carry all aspect 9L/M or pl-5e s 

Unless aim9p were upgraded to v4/5 which are also all aspect


----------



## Sayfullah

Can mirage fire R-Darter bvr? Or is that only for jf-17?


khanasifm said:


> Mirages with no ai radar version carry older rear aspect aim-9ps Rest all assets carry all aspect 9L/M or pl-5e s
> 
> Unless aim9p were upgraded to v4/5 which are also all aspect


----------



## khanasifm

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Can mirage fire R-Darter bvr? Or is that only for jf-17?




There is no r-darter not even South African use it anymore

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## ghazi52



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## umair86

PAF has AIM-9P4 we never had the rear aspect version Papa. Mirages ROSE can also carry LIMA.


khanasifm said:


> Mirages with no ai radar version carry older rear aspect aim-9ps Rest all assets carry all aspect 9L/M or pl-5e s
> 
> Unless aim9p were upgraded to v4/5 which are also all aspect

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## White Lion

Any news regarding Egyptian Mirages?


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## ghazi52

Delta reflects beauty from all angles...................................

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## araz

ghazi52 said:


> Delta reflects beauty from all angles...................................
> 
> 
> View attachment 756520


I think it is now beginning to show its age. 
A

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## ghazi52



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## air marshal



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

𝗥𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗗𝗲𝗹𝘁𝗮 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗳𝗶𝗿𝗲𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸𝘀

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## ghazi52

Mirage V PA armed with AM-39 Exocet Anti-Ship Missile

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## Scorpiooo



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## The Raven

Scorpiooo said:


> View attachment 762538
> View attachment 762539
> View attachment 762540



Always impressed with how well the PAF have managed to keep the Mirages, the quality of the paint and condition of the aircraft are like new.

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## araz

The Raven said:


> Always impressed with how well the PAF have managed to keep the Mirages, the quality of the paint and condition of the aircraft are like new.


Possibly recently out of the-shop?
A


----------



## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=977984532978354

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## Windjammer

PAF Mirage going ballistic pumping out flares.

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## ghazi52



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## Talon

araz said:


> Possibly recently out of the-shop?
> A


Straight out of Kamra..

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

Memories from the past. This picture of a PAF Mirage-3 appeared on covers of several aviation magazine as well as some paint manufacturers publicity material in the 80s. Fresh from overhaul, the Mirage is seen basking in the Sun after a visit to the paint shop at MRF in Kamra.

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## khanasifm

Another decade at least may be more


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## ghazi52

Delta is ready

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## Imran Khan

ghazi52 said:


> Delta is ready
> 
> 
> View attachment 768963


not even armed sir

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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> not even armed sir


Yar bacha naha dho kar nikla hai kam az kam jism to khusk ho jae phir kapray bhi pehna daingay.
Khan saheb you are always in a hurry.
A

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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> Yar bacha naha dho kar nikla hai kam az kam jism to khusk ho jae phir kapray bhi pehna daingay.
> Khan saheb you are always in a hurry.
> A


i think this pic is older when they were testing new refueling systems sir .

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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> i think this pic is older when they were testing new refueling systems sir .


Yes this picture is no less than Three year old and despite repeated requests by me and others, the member is prone to copy paste anything he sees on social media pages... people should just stick to their own fields.









Analysis: Thrifty at 50: how Pakistan keeps its ageing Mirages flying on the cheap


Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat.




www.scmp.com

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## TaimiKhan

Guys what under the mid hard point ???

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## untitled

TaimiKhan said:


> View attachment 773923
> 
> Guys what under the mid hard point ???


Control pod for the H2/H4

Similar control pod for the UAE Hakim missiles on this F16's chin point

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## Ali_Baba

TaimiKhan said:


> View attachment 773923
> 
> Guys what under the mid hard point ???



So you need 2 planes to operate the H2 / H4 ? Not very efficient in the number of planes you need to operate 1 missile - that is why having planes with more hardpoints and more powerful engines is so important for strike missions and why the H2/H4 may need to go out of service and replaced with more capable precision guided munitions that require few aerial assets to deliver a mission outcome. They maybe able to address this on the JF17 Block III with a chin-mount and the RD-93MA engine. I dont think/know if the H2/H4 will be mounted on the JF17 ( on the wings since they are now rated to be able to do 2,000lb bombs now .. ) or not. Depends on how much life and military value there is left in the H2/H4 given that it is guided to its target by an operator.


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## ghazi52



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## jupiter2007

Should be decom most of them in next 5 years.


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## araz

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 773988


These planes have 5 hardpoints which will still allow the SOW to be guided to its position. However the plane will have to be a twinseater. However they will continue to require top cover which is the real pain 
A

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## Windjammer

TaimiKhan said:


> View attachment 773923
> 
> Guys what under the mid hard point ???

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 774053
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 774050
> 
> 
> View attachment 774051


modi ko sabaq sikhany ja raha hai


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## Gripen9

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 773988


Is this the H4 communications/targeting pod?


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## Akh1112

Gripen9 said:


> Is this the H4 communications/targeting pod?


Yeh, datalink pod

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## Scorpiooo

Can JFT with delta ..will be ecnomical replacement for our aging mirages


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> Can JFT with delta ..will be ecnomical replacement for our aging mirages


The replacement is project azm.


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## SQ8

Scorpiooo said:


> Can JFT with delta ..will be ecnomical replacement for our aging mirages


Yes - but no. Just as you can raise and pit huge 4x4 a suzuki cultus.. it isn’t an efficient solution.
Delta isn’t some magical solution but rather a stable platform for bombing. However, paired with the very light JF-17 offers no advantage.

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## Scorpiooo

SQ8 said:


> Yes - but no. Just as you can raise and pit huge 4x4 a suzuki cultus.. it isn’t an efficient solution.
> Delta isn’t some magical solution but rather a stable platform for bombing. However, paired with the very light JF-17 offers no advantage.


Make sense, but they why PAF plan to replace JFT with mirage later on, how they fit in strike role as it is


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## Deltadart

I just wish that those who are new to this particular thread or any other thread would read up what has already been discussed on those threads. 
I assure you there are no more mirage related questions that have not been answered already very professionally on this thread by the experts.
Please start from post #1 and you will get all your questions answered, and save some bandwidth while at it

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## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> Yes - but no. Just as you can raise and pit huge 4x4 a suzuki cultus.. it isn’t an efficient solution.
> Delta isn’t some magical solution but rather a stable platform for bombing. However, paired with the very light JF-17 offers no advantage.



But what if an NG version was created in the medium weight category? Fraternal twins with cropped delta and delta. Yin and Yang. Flanker and Fulcrum.


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## Scorpiooo

CriticalThought said:


> But what if an NG version was created in the medium weight category? Fraternal twins with cropped delta and delta. Yin and Yang. Flanker and Fulcrum.


That will be entirely new jet


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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> But what if an NG version was created in the medium weight category? Fraternal twins with cropped delta and delta. Yin and Yang. Flanker and Fulcrum.


Wont work - think of all the aspects apart from when you add aerodynamic surfaces. Structural changes go well beyond it into each fuselage section, changing strength to accommodate for additional loads that increases weight and expenses - will the existing engine even suffice?

If you really look at the Mirage 2000 vs 4000 you will see how much of them is different even when seemingly the same. The F-2 to F-16 with its enlarged wing has structural issues. You are just better off with a clean sheet design instead of trying to constantly rework something so that it doesn’t resemble what it started from but still carries the initial limitations over.

Go back to the requirements document for the JF-17, does it still hold true to those? If it does then it was a success and it’s ok to leave it at that. You’re better off with a new platform for other requirements.

After all, the US Navy had requirements led to the superhornet which barely shares 35-40% with the legacy hornet - it also costs more and isn’t that good of a WVR aircraft.

The Jf-17 has growth potential but should be kept limited to weight reduction and power increase along with it. Avionics are shrinking in size(most of the weight today is power supply circuits and protection (hard cases, heavy wiring etc) that will help the performance along.

But if it turns out the Indians are changing their fleet different then the requirements will change again and maybe the JF-17 loses its relevance.

At the end, the JF-17 isn’t the goal -fulfilling the air staff requirement is.

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## Moon

SQ8 said:


> Wont work - think of all the aspects apart from when you add aerodynamic surfaces. Structural changes go well beyond it into each fuselage section, changing strength to accommodate for additional loads that increases weight and expenses - will the existing engine even suffice?
> 
> If you really look at the Mirage 2000 vs 4000 you will see how much of them is different even when seemingly the same. The F-2 to F-16 with its enlarged wing has structural issues. You are just better off with a clean sheet design instead of trying to constantly rework something so that it doesn’t resemble what it started from but still carries the initial limitations over.
> 
> Go back to the requirements document for the JF-17, does it still hold true to those? If it does then it was a success and it’s ok to leave it at that. You’re better off with a new platform for other requirements.
> 
> After all, the US Navy had requirements led to the superhornet which barely shares 35-40% with the legacy hornet - it also costs more and isn’t that good of a WVR aircraft.
> 
> The Jf-17 has growth potential but should be kept limited to weight reduction and power increase along with it. Avionics are shrinking in size(most of the weight today is power supply circuits and protection (hard cases, heavy wiring etc) that will help the performance along.
> 
> But if it turns out the Indians are changing their fleet different then the requirements will change again and maybe the JF-17 loses its relevance.
> 
> At the end, the JF-17 isn’t the goal -fulfilling the air staff requirement is.


Could a better/new bird be built using a good percentage of old Thunder parts? Things like the actuators, tail parts, FBW system, cockpit, avionics, hardpoints, Fire control systems etc..? And save money on developmental costs? 
Like how the Super Hornet shares underpinnings of a regular Hornet? Or the F-8 Crusader and the A-7 Corsair? Or how the Chinese sprouted an entire family of Fighters based in the MiG-19 and MiG-21?
Basically using the JF-17 parts bin.... Maybe a twin engined variant like the J-8, which uses J-7 engines.


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## Windjammer

Three types together, Mirage IIIRP, Mirage VPA & Mirage IIIDA.

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## Windjammer

Rare image of PAF Mirage carrying an ACMI Pod.

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> Rare image of PAF Mirage carrying an ACMI Pod.
> 
> View attachment 775510


Nice find


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## ghazi52

Mirage was F16 of its own time. PAF got 24 in first batch, and they were a prized possession. 70s recruitment posters had pilots posing with Mirages

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Where it all began. Conversion training. January 1968.

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> Three types together, Mirage IIIRP, Mirage VPA & Mirage IIIDA.
> 
> View attachment 775093



Validating our own LINK.

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## jupiter2007

Qatar Mirage 2000 coming to Pakistan in November 2021. Does anyone has anyone information?

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> Qatar Mirage 2000 coming to Pakistan in November 2021. Does anyone has anyone information?


12 Good for Navy


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## GriffinsRule

jupiter2007 said:


> Qatar Mirage 2000 coming to Pakistan in November 2021. Does anyone has anyone information?


For an exercise?


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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> For an exercise?


They retiring them from duty with F15Q along Rafales coming in


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## Mig hunter

jupiter2007 said:


> Qatar Mirage 2000 coming to Pakistan in November 2021. Does anyone has anyone information?


Highly unlikely due to multuiple factors.. Foremost being no facility for maint and mirage facility being closed since 2010.

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## nomi007

Which is oldest mirage sq of PAF.


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## Scorpiooo

jupiter2007 said:


> Qatar Mirage 2000 coming to Pakistan in November 2021. Does anyone has anyone information?


Any source?

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## jupiter2007

Scorpiooo said:


> Any source?


I also have my doubts about Mirage 2000 news since J-10C should be coming next years.

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## Scorpiooo

jupiter2007 said:


> I also have my doubts about Mirage 2000 news since J-10C should be coming next years.


13 used mirages 2000 will bring what good in PAF ? Not even one full sqd

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## Reichmarshal

better us than india

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## araz

Reichmarshal said:


> better us than india


We dont think that way besides 13 at this juncture when JFT is beginning to mature is going to send the/wrong signals. Lastly France will never allow the sale. Remember in 2003 when we had a deal ongoing for 58 Armie de Air M2K5s it was France that pulled out and offered us the Rafale instead.
A

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## Blacklight

araz said:


> We dont think that way besides 13 at this juncture when JFT is beginning to mature is going to send the/wrong signals. Lastly France will never allow the sale. Remember* in 2003 when we had a deal ongoing for 58 Armie de Air M2K5s it was France that pulled out and offered us the Rafale instead.*
> A


and they ended up selling us nothing. So who lost? (j/k)

But yes, I dont think Qatari M2k's make sense.

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## jupiter2007

Blacklight said:


> and they ended up selling us nothing. So who lost? (j/k)
> 
> But yes, I dont think Qatari M2k's make sense.



even free?


----------



## GriffinsRule

What happened to those Egyptian Mirages btw? 

And Mirage 2000s would be a great addition to PAF, even if its to form an aggressor squadron.

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## Reichmarshal

Instead of going to PAF, its high time the PN air arm got its own fast jets n these Qatari mirages would make for a great addition n start.

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## GriffinsRule

Reichmarshal said:


> Instead of going to PAF, its high time the PN air arm got its own fast jets n these Qatari mirages would make for a great addition n start.


PN only in name if all the training will come from PAF?


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## Reichmarshal

GriffinsRule said:


> PN only in name if all the training will come from PAF?


At this point in time the air n ground crews would be PAF personal on deputation with PN.
Plus don't just look at these 12 ac we can form at the very least a sqd plus with uae ac.

I say this as with the events of recent weeks, things n countries are falling in line, right across the region.

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## araz

Blacklight said:


> and they ended up selling us nothing. So who lost? (j/k)
> 
> But yes, I dont think Qatari M2k's make sense.


I think they cajoled Indians into buying Rafale. So what might not have worked for PAF worked for IAF. I still think they lost out as that 3 billion odd dollars would have come in handy. The sale to IAF mivht still have gone ahead as Rafale was a totally different fighter. 
One question that has always bothered me is whether the frogs would have considered swapping Snecma M88(the Rafale engine) instead of M53 which was an old inefficient engine. Would it have made any difference to the M2K5's performance.
Help appreciated.
A

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## GriffinsRule

araz said:


> I think they cajoled Indians into buying Rafale. So what might not have worked for PAF worked for IAF. I still think they lost out as that 3 billion odd dollars would have come in handy. The sale to IAF mivht still have gone ahead as Rafale was a totally different fighter.
> One question that has always bothered me is whether the frogs would have considered swapping Snecma M88(the Rafale engine) instead of M53 which was an old inefficient engine. Would it have made any difference to the M2K5's performance.
> Help appreciated.
> A


Very different engine dimensions, weights and trust so they are not interchangeable.

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> Very different engine dimensions, weights and trust so they are not interchangeable.


Thank you for the response.
A


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## The Raven

GriffinsRule said:


> What happened to those Egyptian Mirages btw?
> 
> And Mirage 2000s would be a great addition to PAF, even if its to form an aggressor squadron.



It was a clickbait story, much like most things on here.

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## araz

The Raven said:


> It was a clickbait story, much like most things on here.


But the news was broken by Alan Warnes! 
A

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## Inception-06

Scorpiooo said:


> 13 used mirages 2000 will bring what good in PAF ? Not even one full sqd


Could bring technical and tactical knowledge!


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

*Exclusive:* *H2 SOW spotted on Mirage-VPA* in a recent video published by PAF for the defence day celebration.
H2 is actually a H4 without rocket boosters.

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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> But the news was broken by Alan Warnes!
> A


Can you plz share the link


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## The Eagle

Scorpiooo said:


> Can you plz share the link











The PAF is set to receive a batch of Egyptian Air Force Mirage-Vs


and this old tweet from Jan 2019 Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs Mirage 5SDE : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built Mirage 5E2 : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built Mirage 5SDR : Export version of the...



defence.pk


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## Scorpiooo

The Eagle said:


> The PAF is set to receive a batch of Egyptian Air Force Mirage-Vs
> 
> 
> and this old tweet from Jan 2019 Details of Egypt air force Mirage Vs Mirage 5SDE : Single-seat radar-equipped fighter-bomber version for Egypt, equivalent to Mirage IIIE; 54 built Mirage 5E2 : Upgraded radarless attack version for Egypt. 16 built Mirage 5SDR : Export version of the...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


Thanks, but it more then 2 year old news .. a lot sense it will already be dead news


----------



## Basel

Today I saw an unusual flying of a Mirage over central Karachi, the bird was very low and clean (no undercarriage, no hard points, no external fuel tanks).

While losing altitude it lean right, still losing altitude it goes to bit right, the it straightened and fly level, then it took 45+ degree angle and start climbing.

Initially I was shocked as it looked like the plane is having issue and pilot is trying to control it. The thing was that it was way too clean, and had dusty gray look.

I have seen mirages land and take off on daily basis since years but that flying was unusual.

Can anyone explain that?? @The Eagle @Deino

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## The Eagle

Basel said:


> Today I saw an unusual flying of a Mirage over central Karachi, the bird was very low and clean (no undercarriage, no hard points, no external fuel tanks).
> 
> While losing altitude it lean right, still losing altitude it goes to bit right, the it straightened and fly level, then it took 45+ degree angle and start climbing.
> 
> Initially I was shocked as it looked like the plane is having issue and pilot is trying to control it. The thing was that it was way too clean, and had dusty gray look.
> 
> I have seen mirages land and take off on daily basis since years but that flying was unusual.
> 
> Can anyone explain that?? @The Eagle @Deino



For the time, all I can say is that it was just simply flying.

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## Blacklight

araz said:


> I think they cajoled Indians into buying Rafale. So what might not have worked for PAF worked for IAF. I still think they lost out as that 3 billion odd dollars would have come in handy. The sale to IAF mivht still have gone ahead as Rafale was a totally different fighter.


They bet on the wrong horse, and lost.



araz said:


> One question that has always bothered me is whether the frogs would have considered swapping Snecma M88(the Rafale engine) instead of M53 which was an old inefficient engine. Would it have made any difference to the M2K5's performance.
> Help appreciated.
> A



Absolutely! It would have reduced its thrust, putting aside the fact that a lot of customization would be needed to install it. It wouldnt be simple plug and play. The physical dimensions are different.

The M88 has a max thrust of 16,800 lbs, with afterburners, this is why Rafales have two of them.
The M53-P2 has a max thrust of 21,400 lbs, with afterburners. This is the engine most in service with M2k operators.









M88 - Proven performance and reliability


Wholly designed, developed and produced by Safran Aircraft Engines, the M88 powers Dassault Aviation’s Rafale multirole fighter deployed by French armed forces and export customers.




www.safran-group.com







Wayback Machine



Newer version of M53-P2, is the M53-PX3 or M53-P3 with an increased thrust of 22,640 lbs, The UAE is _"supposed to be" _its only customer.
Increased thrust is not the only thing it has, but some tech from the M88 has also filtered down to it. Increasing MTBO, reliability, and fuel consumption.



One Million Flight Hours for the M53 Engine











Snecma M53 - Archived 7/2008: Outlook | PDF | Aerospace Engineering | Engines


Mirage2000-5 Engine and updates




www.scribd.com





I hope the above was helpful.

Edit: Cost of M88 in 1995, US$110m / FR600m for 20 engines








Snecma boss refuses to bow to demands for M88 price cuts


NEW CONTROVERSY is surrounding Bernard Dufour, the recently installed president of French engine- manufacturer Snecma, with his refusal to accept the defence ministry's demand for a 2% reduction in the price of a batch of M88 fighter engines. Dufour caused a stir, shortly after he was named...




 www.flightglobal.com

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## Nomad40

Basel said:


> Today I saw an unusual flying of a Mirage over central Karachi, the bird was very low and clean (no undercarriage, no hard points, no external fuel tanks).
> 
> While losing altitude it lean right, still losing altitude it goes to bit right, the it straightened and fly level, then it took 45+ degree angle and start climbing.
> 
> Initially I was shocked as it looked like the plane is having issue and pilot is trying to control it. The thing was that it was way too clean, and had dusty gray look.
> 
> I have seen mirages land and take off on daily basis since years but that flying was unusual.
> 
> Can anyone explain that?? @The Eagle @Deino


Only flying nothing special, I have seen crazy stuff over KHI.

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## Blacklight

jupiter2007 said:


> even free?


Given the newer tech in it, in comparison to our existing fleet, and with an ample supply of spares, like the Sea King deal, (where we only paid +/- US$300k for transportation), It could keep the M2k's flying for some time, but for how long? Unless there is a tacit french approval to directly / indirectly supply parts. The other way around it is getting parts & support from Egypt or UAE, given how the French are acting with Pakistan, like a bitch after a one night stand. 
.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> We dont think that way besides 13 at this juncture when JFT is beginning to mature is going to send the/wrong signals. Lastly France will never allow the sale. Remember in 2003 when we had a deal ongoing for 58 Armie de Air M2K5s it was France that pulled out and offered us the Rafale instead.
> A


IIRC around that time, the US told the PAF that they can get the F-16. Bush made the clearance official in 2004, but I was hearing (from uncles in drawing rooms) about the PAF evaluating the Block-50/52 in 2003. In fact, there were a series of news reports from Geo at the time saying that the US will sell us F-16s, but the US kept officially denying it until Bush's announced it. 

Pre-Earthquake, the PAF was seeking to buy 55 Block-52+ (source: Flight International), so they were basically going all-in on the program. The Mirage 2000-5 would've been nice, but the French were shuttering its production and the design was analogous to the F-16. I think the PAF figured maintaining the M2K/-5 would've been really expensive. Yes, they chose the FC-20/J-10A (itself another comparable design to the F-16), however, it was in full production and would benefit from China's economies-of-scale.

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## Talon

Basel said:


> Today I saw an unusual flying of a Mirage over central Karachi, the bird was very low and clean (no undercarriage, no hard points, no external fuel tanks).
> 
> 
> 
> While losing altitude it lean right, still losing altitude it goes to bit right, the it straightened and fly level, then it took 45+ degree angle and start climbing.
> 
> 
> 
> Initially I was shocked as it looked like the plane is having issue and pilot is trying to control it. The thing was that it was way too clean, and had dusty gray look.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen mirages land and take off on daily basis since years but that flying was unusual.
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone explain that?? @The Eagle @Deino





If close to the runway then Engine Flameout practice.. maybe 





GriffinsRule said:


> What happened to those Egyptian Mirages btw?





Your neighbor happened..





The Raven said:


> It was a clickbait story, much like most things on here.



The deal was real..

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## HRK

Hodor said:


> The deal was real..


which deal Mirage-V deal with Egypt or the following supposed story which I believe is false


jupiter2007 said:


> Qatar Mirage 2000 coming to Pakistan in November 2021. Does anyone has anyone information?

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## The Eagle

The Raven said:


> It was a clickbait story, much like most things on here.



You may have issues with things here or may be "Here" but you may known well that you are also part of "here". No need to take cheap shots.


HRK said:


> which deal Mirage-V deal with Egypt or the following supposed story which I believe is false



EAF Mirages

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## khanasifm



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## Talon

HRK said:


> which deal Mirage-V deal with Egypt or the following supposed story which I believe is false


Sir EAF mirages of course

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## Windjammer



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## Blacklight

Hodor said:


> Sir EAF mirages of course


What I feel sad about, is the MICA's we lost.

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## Talon

Blacklight said:


> What I feel sad about, is the MICA's we lost.


and some extra years we could keep mirages in the air..

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## Blacklight

Hodor said:


> and some extra years we could keep mirages in the air..


THAT I am happy about!! I want these relics gone, let the fly boys feel the pressure, and ramp up production of JF17, or buy something off the shelf, but for Gods sake get rid of these relics!

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## Talon

Blacklight said:


> THAT I am happy about!! I want these relics gone, let the fly boys feel the pressure, and ramp up production of JF17, or buy something off the shelf, but for Gods sake get rid of these relics!


There's still no replacement for Mirage's role...

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## Blacklight

Hodor said:


> There's still no replacement for Mirage's role...


There is bro, but lets not indulge in this topic publicly.

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## The Eagle

Blacklight said:


> There is bro, but lets not indulge in this topic publicly.



Two points

A platform to be discussed in PAF New Fighter Thread as an option and for quality discussion
A secrete which shouldn't be revealed, in-case that is in discussion or consideration at all

but the way you replied, sounds mix of unwilling to share an option alongside the suspicion being secrete.

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## Blacklight

The Eagle said:


> Two points
> 
> A platform to be discussed in PAF New Fighter Thread as an option and for quality discussion



Can you point to exactly which platform you are alluding to? The only thing missing in that thread are inter galactic warp speed capable flying saucers.




The Eagle said:


> A secrete which shouldn't be revealed, in-case that is in discussion or consideration at all
> 
> but the way you replied, sounds mix of unwilling to share an option alongside the suspicion being secrete.



No Secrets Bro. 

I am willing to share what is in the public realm, as well as my opinions, but sometimes, not everything should be discussed in Public. People have a certain respect for the Armed Forces, that should not be tarnished publicly. 

You could open a PM and invite anyone that you feel would be a good contributor.

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## The Eagle

Blacklight said:


> Can you point to exactly which platform you are alluding to? The only thing missing in that thread are inter galactic warp speed capable flying saucers.



I am not pointing at any platform but got the notion from your post, for us having an option to replace Mirage but not to discuss in public.

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## CriticalThought

Blacklight said:


> THAT I am happy about!! I want these relics gone, let the fly boys feel the pressure, and ramp up production of JF17, or buy something off the shelf, but for Gods sake get rid of these relics!



This baby goes twice the speed of sound. Hard to get that off the shelf. Yes, modern missiles are faster, but the devil is in the details. Mission planning, mission planning, mission planning...

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## Blacklight

The Eagle said:


> I am not pointing at any platform but got the notion from your post, for us having an option to replace Mirage but not to discuss in public.


Yes Bro, options are there. 

As you may have noticed, that my points of contention with our Mirage's are it technological obsolescence, and safety record. 

In the next full fledged war, we cant afford to send fighters as escorts, our front line fighters need to be able to carry their own weight, given the physical size of our adversary.

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## Blacklight

CriticalThought said:


> This baby goes twice the speed of sound. Hard to get that off the shelf. Yes, modern missiles are faster, but the devil is in the details. Mission planning, mission planning, mission planning...


Can you tell me what its range is, at Mach 2 with a full A2G load and extra fuel tanks?

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## CriticalThought

Blacklight said:


> Can you tell me what its range is, at Mach 2 with a full A2G load and extra fuel tanks?



Please read:









JF-17 Block III Multirole Fighter


Hi, What posters are missing here is that the MIG21 is a 60's aircraft like the Mirage 3 when mach 2 ++ was the speed to be. None of the aircraft--the Mig21 or the F16---fully loaded can do mach2. Then flying at mach 2 is a very bad speed when your chasing missile is doing mach3---. That...



defence.pk

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## Blacklight

CriticalThought said:


> Please read:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17 Block III Multirole Fighter
> 
> 
> Hi, What posters are missing here is that the MIG21 is a 60's aircraft like the Mirage 3 when mach 2 ++ was the speed to be. None of the aircraft--the Mig21 or the F16---fully loaded can do mach2. Then flying at mach 2 is a very bad speed when your chasing missile is doing mach3---. That...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



I went through that very fine logically deducted post, but a few points were missing. 

1) Bomb Toss was not perfected by PAF on M3/M5, but Viper.

2) The only advantage that M3/5 have is the ability to fly fast at low alt. With extra fuel tanks and A2G load, Mach2 happens, if at all, in short bursts. A bogey on your tail, taking you down with BVR is highly probable, hence the need for escorts (_not the Ayyan Malik type_) 

3) Data Link is how M3/5's maintain SA. In a dense EW environment this can be compromised. 

4) Despite our MRO's / rebuilds, and micro fracture detection eqpt, air frame fatigue,and engine failure is a very serious issue. 

5) Our adversaries are inducting the latest h/w, whereas in this particular case, we are literally "maintaining minimum credible deterrence."

6) When we loose an M3/5 pilot in peace time, being the brother of a young Shaheed it weighs on you. The tragic loss and personal struggle of a young family is heart breaking. To keep flying these relics till they literally fall apart in mid air, is nothing less than criminal negligence. Albeit it is a rare occurrence, but nonetheless a catastrophic one for those who loose a loved one.

Just my opinion, hope you dont mind.

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## PakFactor

Blacklight said:


> I went through that very fine logically deducted post, but a few points were missing.
> 
> 1) Bomb Toss was not perfected by PAF on M3/M5, but Viper.
> 
> 2) The only advantage that M3/5 have is the ability to fly fast at low alt. With extra fuel tanks and A2G load, Mach2 happens, if at all, in short bursts. A bogey on your tail, taking you down with BVR is highly probable, hence the need for escorts (_not the Ayyan Malik type_)
> 
> 3) Data Link is how M3/5's maintain SA. In a dense EW environment this can be compromised.
> 
> 4) Despite our MRO's / rebuilds, and micro fracture detection eqpt, air frame fatigue,and engine failure is a very serious issue.
> 
> 5) Our adversaries are inducting the latest h/w, whereas in this particular case, we are literally "maintaining minimum credible deterrence."
> 
> 6) When we loose an M3/5 pilot in peace time, being the brother of a young Shaheed it weighs on you. The tragic loss and personal struggle of a young family is heart breaking. To keep flying these relics till they literally fall apart in mid air, is nothing less than criminal negligence. Albeit it is a rare occurrence, but nonetheless a catastrophic one for those who loose a loved one.
> 
> Just my opinion, hope you dont mind.



Agree with you bhai.

If you don't mind me asking your a brother of a Shaheed?

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## CriticalThought

Blacklight said:


> I went through that very fine logically deducted post, but a few points were missing.
> 
> 1) Bomb Toss was not perfected by PAF on M3/M5, but Viper.
> 
> 2) The only advantage that M3/5 have is the ability to fly fast at low alt. With extra fuel tanks and A2G load, Mach2 happens, if at all, in short bursts. A bogey on your tail, taking you down with BVR is highly probable, hence the need for escorts (_not the Ayyan Malik type_)
> 
> 3) Data Link is how M3/5's maintain SA. In a dense EW environment this can be compromised.
> 
> 4) Despite our MRO's / rebuilds, and micro fracture detection eqpt, air frame fatigue,and engine failure is a very serious issue.
> 
> 5) Our adversaries are inducting the latest h/w, whereas in this particular case, we are literally "maintaining minimum credible deterrence."
> 
> 6) When we loose an M3/5 pilot in peace time, being the brother of a young Shaheed it weighs on you. The tragic loss and personal struggle of a young family is heart breaking. To keep flying these relics till they literally fall apart in mid air, is nothing less than criminal negligence. Albeit it is a rare occurrence, but nonetheless a catastrophic one for those who loose a loved one.
> 
> Just my opinion, hope you dont mind.



I totally understand brother, and I grieve for every one of our shaheeds. Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Iliahi Raji'oon.

But I also grieve when my countrymen have no problems with the USAF upgrading 50 year old B-52s to keep them flying, yet don't like PAF doing the same with Mirages. The PAF holds them for good reasons, I am sure everyone will agree.

In the program aired a few days ago about the Mirages, the pilots were absolutely raving about it. And I tend to agree, it is truly unique in the capabilities it provides. They practice air combat, so if push comes to shove, they can definitely defend themselves. In a WVR fight, the Mirage is no slouch if proper energy management is followed. Also, they will be used in stand-off configuration, so they may not even see an aerial fight, and may not need top cover.

As far as jamming is concerned, the textbook approach to deal with it is to first take out the jammers. You would do that for any remotely guided stand-off weapon, even if deployed from F-35.

Finally, the distance of stand-off weapons increases with the altitude of the deploying aircraft and its speed. The Mirages are perfect for developing strategies to deploy weapons at supersonic speeds. They have their solid build going for them. Once deployed, if you create sat link, they can guide the weapon from a lower altitude thus avoiding radar detection.

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## HRK

Blacklight said:


> Can you tell me what its range is, at Mach 2 with a full A2G load and extra fuel tanks?


Mach-2 is possible for a limited time only in certain diving maneuver from the point of service ceiling in clean configuration.

This was confirmed by Kaiser Tufail in one of his blog related to his flying of Mirage at Mach-2

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## khanasifm

Bottom line is mirages are here not because we love them but because right now there is no $$ and no replacement available even jf-17 will first replace f-7s, needing replacement of 3 pg sqdn

Mirages has specialized roles like night attack and stand off which in case of f-16 stand off A2g is not available and jf-17 still need to get it referring to h2/h4 but perhaps would not even needed on jf-17 as h2/h4 may be coming to end after mirage phase out

Jf-17 has Chinese stand off tactical options and RAAD as strategic option

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## CriticalThought

khanasifm said:


> Bottom line is mirages are here not because we love them but because right now there is no $$ and no replacement available even jf-17 will first replace f-7s, needing replacement of 3 pg sqdn
> 
> Mirages has specialized roles like night attack and stand off which in case of f-16 stand off A2g is not available and jf-17 still need to get it referring to h2/h4 but perhaps would not even needed on jf-17 as h2/h4 may be coming to end after mirage phase out
> 
> Jf-17 has Chinese stand off tactical options and RAAD as strategic option



Are you confirming Raad on Thunder?


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## Reichmarshal

CriticalThought said:


> This baby goes twice the speed of sound.



Only in a dive brother, in level flight its hard pressed as it is.

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## CriticalThought

Reichmarshal said:


> Only in a dive brother, in level flight its hard pressed as it is.



I don't disagree with that, but I still wonder... it's been a while since KT tested it in dive mode. PAC has a full overhaul facility for the SNECMA. Have they made any mods? Who knows. I'm just speculating.


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## GriffinsRule

HRK said:


> Mach-2 is possible for a limited time only in certain diving maneuver from the point of service ceiling in clean configuration.
> 
> This was confirmed by Kaiser Tufail in one of his blog related to his flying of Mirage at Mach-2


Yep, actually even in the shows aired in the past few days the Mach 2 was the aspect raised by the hosts but one of the pilots mentioned the instantaneous turn rate while the other talked about the acceleration at low levels.

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## Blacklight

CriticalThought said:


> I totally understand brother, and I grieve for every one of our shaheeds. Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Iliahi Raji'oon.
> 
> But I also grieve when my countrymen have no problems with the USAF upgrading 50 year old B-52s to keep them flying, yet don't like PAF doing the same with Mirages. The PAF holds them for good reasons, I am sure everyone will agree.
> 
> In the program aired a few days ago about the Mirages, the pilots were absolutely raving about it. And I tend to agree, it is truly unique in the capabilities it provides. They practice air combat, so if push comes to shove, they can definitely defend themselves. In a WVR fight, the Mirage is no slouch if proper energy management is followed. Also, they will be used in stand-off configuration, so they may not even see an aerial fight, and may not need top cover.
> 
> As far as jamming is concerned, the textbook approach to deal with it is to first take out the jammers. You would do that for any remotely guided stand-off weapon, even if deployed from F-35.
> 
> Finally, the distance of stand-off weapons increases with the altitude of the deploying aircraft and its speed. The Mirages are perfect for developing strategies to deploy weapons at supersonic speeds. They have their solid build going for them. Once deployed, if you create sat link, they can guide the weapon from a lower altitude thus avoiding radar detection.





CriticalThought said:


> But I also grieve when my countrymen have no problems with* the USAF upgrading 50 year old B-52s to keep them flying, yet don't like PAF doing the same with Mirages*.


You are comparing bombers to front line fighter aircrafts? Ones that come into play when SEAD / DEAD has been achieved? 

No point in me continuing this debate with you. Disengaging now.


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## Talon

Why so much debate about Mach 2? Aircrafts can achieve Mach 2 even at 350kts, its all about the angles aircraft is flying at, so what's the big deal? And what will Mach 2 achieve you any ways? If the aircraft is inbound for a mission Mach 2 won't be recommended anyhow

Concern should be about the replacement of Mirages and making JF-17 compatible with Raptor bombs and RAAD.


Blacklight said:


> You are comparing bombers to front line fighter aircrafts? Ones that come into play when SEAD / DEAD has been achieved?
> 
> No point in me continuing this debate with you. Disengaging now.


Even though PAF has implemented SEAD/DEAD profiles but we have yet to see it in action, which I really am desperate to see

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## CriticalThought

Blacklight said:


> You are comparing bombers to front line fighter aircrafts? Ones that come into play when SEAD / DEAD has been achieved?
> 
> No point in me continuing this debate with you. Disengaging now.



Please, feel free to make a quick exit. But your initial complaint about the Mirages was that they are 'disintegrating in mid-air', not that they will disintegrate during combat. In that respect, the comparison with B-52s is quite relevant.

If you are trying to say that Mirage airframes are not worthy for the stresses of air to air combat, that is a serious allegation against PAF. And one that is highly doubtful given the manufacturing facilities now available in PAC. They can re-create the entire structure of the aircraft if needed. And even here, the comparison with B-52 remains relevant because the total amount of stresses generated in a light combat aircraft at supersonic speeds are still less than the stresses in a strategic bomber at max take-off capacity. These are the characteristics of the B-52:









Boeing B-52 Stratofortress - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





*Empty weight:* 185,000 lb (83,250 kg)
*Gross weight:* 265,000 lb (120,000 kg)
*Max takeoff weight:* 488,000 lb (219,600 kg)
The 50 year old B-52 airframe needs to tolerate forces generated from that type of load. These are the characteristics of the Mirage









Dassault Mirage III - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





*Empty weight:* 7,050 kg (15,543 lb)
*Gross weight:* 9,600 kg (21,164 lb)
*Max takeoff weight:* 13,700 kg (30,203 lb)
Even if we imagine the Mirage pulling 9 Gs (which it isn't even designed for), the equivalent max weight would be 9 * 13,700 = 123,300 kg equivalent weight (NOTE: The word 'weight' is being used in these sentences to give an idea of the _equivalent_ G-forces that will be acting on the airframe). That is below the empty weight of the B-52.

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## Blacklight

CriticalThought said:


> Please, feel free to make a quick exit.


I have absolutely zero interest in indulging in speculation and conjectures. Please feel free to continue with your hypothesis.


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## Reichmarshal

CriticalThought said:


> I don't disagree with that, but I still wonder... it's been a while since KT tested it in dive mode. PAC has a full overhaul facility for the SNECMA. Have they made any mods? Who knows. I'm just speculating.


I'd like to correct that to....."may be in a dive".
The last time that it did so was on the 27th of feb 99.

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## Abid123

Can somebody explain why PAF bought such a huge number of Mirages back in the days? Like 250+ Mirages? What was the point of buying so many?

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## Yasser76

Abid123 said:


> Can somebody explain why PAF bought such a huge number of Mirages back in the days? Like 250+ Mirages? What was the point of buying so many?



Because the IAF was literally 3 times our size.

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## Keysersoze

Abid123 said:


> Can somebody explain why PAF bought such a huge number of Mirages back in the days? Like 250+ Mirages? What was the point of buying so many?


They bought them over time (since the 1960's) and some were just for spare parts (The Libyan deal was for 50 planes and 150 engine IIRC. The Australian deal was for 50 planes)

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## SQ8

The mirage is still one of the finest attack platforms available due to the inherent low level stability of the delta due to wing loading factors. 
However, the airframe age is beginning to show more and more which unless there is a complete reproduction of the aircraft from the ground up
will remain a life taker.

Wonder why there isn’t a Kfir type rerun done with them? Budget aside doing a Cheetah or Kfir type program would have given the PAF a potent strike fighter. But then economies of scale would have pushed the unit price above $65 million incl amortized costs of the R&D so it was probably better to buy off the shelf.

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## khanasifm

Keysersoze said:


> They bought them over time (since the 1960's) and some were just for spare parts (The Libyan deal was for 50 planes and 150 engine IIRC. The Australian deal was for 50 planes)



Per paf history book it was over 70ish only dual seaters recovered less than 10ish rest all going to spares why you have mirages still good for next decade or so


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> The mirage is still one of the finest attack platforms available due to the inherent low level stability of the delta due to wing loading factors.
> However, the airframe age is beginning to show more and more which unless there is a complete reproduction of the aircraft from the ground up
> will remain a life taker.
> 
> Wonder why there isn’t a Kfir type rerun done with them? Budget aside doing a Cheetah or Kfir type program would have given the PAF a potent strike fighter. But then economies of scale would have pushed the unit price above $65 million incl amortized costs of the R&D so it was probably better to buy off the shelf.


I think this may boil down to 2 issues: (1) the PAF itself didn't expect the Mirage III/5 to endure for this long and (2) the PAF didn't foresee its air-launched strike capabilities evolving to the extent that it did in the last 10-15 years. Generally, a SOW strike was likely a very limited (in scale) tool, but now, large-scale SOW employment is a difference-maker that could buy the PAF valuable time and space in a conflict. The current ASR of the NGFA clearly asks for a very capable strike platform. IMO, "deep strike" (via SOW, large platforms, etc) will be the new "next thing" the PAF will seek moving forward (as it had for BVR a couple decades back).

If the PAF could run it back, I think it would have pursued a Cheetah-type project back in the mid-1990s (instead of ROSE) across 100+ airframes so as to build a large deep-strike capability.

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## ziaulislam

Hodor said:


> There's still no replacement for Mirage's role...


J10 is..can carry same payload at same distance or more..
Startegic part should be given to jf17/raad2 combo

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## Chak Bamu

Reichmarshal said:


> I'd like to correct that to....."may be in a dive".
> The last time that it did so was on the 27th of feb 99.


Yes, it was not a dive. The advise Kaisar Tufail sb followed to achieve Mach 2 in a Mirage Functional Check Flight was as follows - from his blog:

_"Cerveau, who knew his job well, had a little laugh at my brute force approach and, with a nationalistic slant to his explanation, told me how the French do it. &#8220;You climb at the optimum speed to the tropopause[4], the altitude of which varies with ambient surface temperature; you will have to calculate it accordingly. Then, accelerate to Mach 1.6 while maintaining altitude. After reaching this speed, put the aircraft in a very shallow dive till you reach Mach 1.8. *Next, gently raise the nose a few degrees above the horizon and maintain it there.* You will see the Mach-meter registering a steady rise while still in a climb. On a cold day, you will hit Mach 2 or even beyond, before you reach the aircraft ceiling of 50,000 ft above mean sea level (AMSL)."_

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## khanasifm

Aerospaceweb.org | Ask Us - Military Aircraft Maximum Speeds


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## khanasifm

Reality 









Approaching Mach 2 in an F-16: 'The jet started to shake'


Anything close to the maximum structural speed for a jet is usually just for the glossy brochure—99.9% of the time we don’t come close to reaching it.




www.sandboxx.us

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think this may boil down to 2 issues: (1) the PAF itself didn't expect the Mirage III/5 to endure for this long and (2) the PAF didn't foresee its air-launched strike capabilities evolving to the extent that it did in the last 10-15 years. Generally, a SOW strike was likely a very limited (in scale) tool, but now, large-scale SOW employment is a difference-maker that could buy the PAF valuable time and space in a conflict. The current ASR of the NGFA clearly asks for a very capable strike platform. IMO, "deep strike" (via SOW, large platforms, etc) will be the new "next thing" the PAF will seek moving forward (as it had for BVR a couple decades back).
> 
> If the PAF could run it back, I think it would have pursued a Cheetah-type project back in the mid-1990s (instead of ROSE) across 100+ airframes so as to build a large deep-strike capability.



Yes, it seemed the development of our SOW capability moved so fast that all we require are just decent platforms as carriers, the sophistication and capability are all in the missile, in the early 90-s this was not the case.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, it seemed the development of our SOW capability moved so fast that all we require are just decent platforms as carriers, the sophistication and capability are all in the missile, in the early 90-s this was not the case.


Yea, and SOWs may be scalable and relatively low cost too. I'm thinking about the IREKs. They aren't fancy, but could get the job done at 60-100 km with Mk83s. The more platforms available to carry those the better.

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## Pak Nationalist

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yea, and SOWs may be scalable and relatively low cost too. I'm thinking about the IREKs. They aren't fancy, but could get the job done at 60-100 km with Mk83s. The more platforms available to carry those the better.



What about the Indian bases deeper inside Central India? Mkis in particular have a large fuel carrying capacity and might not need to fly from bases an 80-100 km radius from the border. Or were you referring to using guided bombs to neutralize air-defense layers pitched against PAF fighters in the immediate vicinity of IB to provide PAF with the flexibility to lob their longer ranged payloads from within the Indian territory?


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## Deltadart

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think this may boil down to 2 issues: (1) the PAF itself didn't expect the Mirage III/5 to endure for this long and (2) the PAF didn't foresee its air-launched strike capabilities evolving to the extent that it did in the last 10-15 years. Generally, a SOW strike was likely a very limited (in scale) tool, but now, large-scale SOW employment is a difference-maker that could buy the PAF valuable time and space in a conflict. The current ASR of the NGFA clearly asks for a very capable strike platform. IMO, "deep strike" (via SOW, large platforms, etc) will be the new "next thing" the PAF will seek moving forward (as it had for BVR a couple decades back).
> 
> If the PAF could run it back, I think it would have pursued a Cheetah-type project back in the mid-1990s (instead of ROSE) across 100+ airframes so as to build a large deep-strike capability.


@denel. 👆
Oh the missed opportunity...

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## Gripen9

CriticalThought said:


> I don't disagree with that, but I still wonder... it's been a while since KT tested it in dive mode. *PAC has a full overhaul facility for the SNECMA*. Have they made any mods? Who knows. I'm just speculating.


Only for ATAR9C. PAC does not have the capability to modify them in any sense. They are doing what is done at the MRO i-e strip the engine, inspect, overhaul and replace worn out parts such as bearing, shafts etc. We do not have the metallurgical expertise to manufacture compressor or turbine blades.
PAC would not be able to do much with a ATAR9k (Mirage F1) engine let alone M53 or M88.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1038216113613775

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52



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## GriffinsRule

In 1970, a Pakistani Mirage 3 was in California undergoing flight testing of a new compact infrared scanner intended as a low-altitude target acquisition sensor. It was meant for target acquisition for low flying targets that the radar would not be able to detect or track due to ground clutter. The sensor was itself housed on top front of the weapon pylon launching rail (way ahead of its time in some sense) and was cooled using liquid nitrogen. It was developed by Varadyne Systems.

Anyone has access to the Nov 2, 1970 issue of AW&ST to post more details and better pictures?

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## khanasifm

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1444013766740480022

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## syed_yusuf

khanasifm said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1444013766740480022


They call them mirage 5 but actually they are mirage 3

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

𝗠𝗶𝗿𝗮𝗴𝗲-5𝗗𝗗 (04-015) of No 22 OCU
Ex-Libyan Machine

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

𝗠𝗶𝗿𝗮𝗴𝗲-3𝗘𝗔 (𝗥𝗢𝗦𝗘-1) 𝘀𝗲𝗿𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗶𝗻 𝗖𝗖𝗦 (Skybolts) 𝗯𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗮𝗶𝗹 𝗡𝗼 90-599

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## khanasifm

syed_yusuf said:


> They call them mirage 5 but actually they are mirage 3



its mirage5 mirage three nose was for bigger radar this one is smaller similar to 8 sqn mirage with smaller radar for anti ship role 

also the vertices tail mirage 5 is bit different then straight down


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## Aamir Hussain

Originally Mirage V were designed to be ground strike fighters for daylight strikes.

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## Shabi1

By the looks of it Mirages are getting new capability. Zhuhai airshow Mirage and JF-17 shown carrying HD-1 hypersonic missile. Probably anti radiation use.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Shabi1 said:


> By the looks of it Mirages are getting new capability. Zhuhai airshow Mirage and JF-17 shown carrying HD-1 hypersonic missile. Probably anti radiation use.
> View attachment 782312


This, my friend, is a model of Mirage-2000.


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## GriffinsRule

DANGER-ZONE said:


> This, my friend, is a model of Mirage-2000.


Must be for Taiwan

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## Shabi1

.


DANGER-ZONE said:


> This, my friend, is a model of Mirage-2000.


If so, doesnt make sense for a M2K operator (Taiwan/India/France/UAE/Greece) using Chinese missiles, probably they got the details on the model wrong. The other aircraft model with HD-1 is JF-17 so probability for PAF is high.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Shabi1 said:


> .
> 
> If so, doesnt make sense for a M2K operator (Taiwan/India/France/UAE/Greece) using Chinese missiles, probably they got the details on the model wrong. The other aircraft model with HD-1 is JF-17 so probability for PAF is high.



It is just to show that a lightweight fighter can carry 2x HD-1 missiles easily whether it's JF-17 or Mirage-2000, it is not intended for any specific country. Mirage-III/V might also be able to carry this missile but on the centerline pylon only but their time is almost up and if Pakistan acquires this missile then it would not be used on Mirages. If JF-17 is able to do a certain job perfectly then it makes no sense that it would be assigned to an older platform that has already overdone its service.

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## Scorpiooo

Shabi1 said:


> By the looks of it Mirages are getting new capability. Zhuhai airshow Mirage and JF-17 shown carrying HD-1 hypersonic missile. Probably anti radiation use.
> View attachment 782312


An other possibility .. may be Chinese working on light weight delta 4.5 th generation (copy of mirage design) for them and export


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## khanasifm

Two modes guidance via on board fighter radar or add on to any aircraft additional guidance equipment so just to show it can be adopted to any aircraft without need for Figter radar so paf mirage like h2/h4 can also adopt if needed or any other platform w/o retrofit 
End of story


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## khanasifm



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## airmarshal

ghazi52 said:


> Where it all began. Conversion training. January 1968.
> 
> 
> View attachment 775583



What a memorable picture. With war hero M M Alam at the centre.

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## Shabi1

Scorpiooo said:


> An other possibility .. may be Chinese working on light weight delta 4.5 th generation (copy of mirage design) for them and export


According to someone on this forum PAF shortlisted Denel and Chengdu for making a upgrade package for it's Mirages. Claimed Denel won the contract but could be that Chinese still in the race. Mirages are being retired but very likely we will retain few as specialist strike aircraft.

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## khanasifm

Shabi1 said:


> According to someone on this forum PAF shortlisted Denel and Chengdu for making a upgrade package for it's Mirages. Claimed Denel won the contract but could be that Chinese still in the race. Mirages are being retired but very likely we will retain few as specialist strike aircraft.


It was shared in the past paf is upgrading t37s as the spares and number of airframes hours still remains and and will keep them till they run out of spares

same is the case as average one sqn Jf17 per year being built so counting first to go f7pg and then mirages there is at least a decade before mirages disappear may be more since pac can keep them flying for longer but in 1/2 years Jf17 will be the most prolific fighter in paf over taking mirages from number of sqns perspective

all guessing based on info in open sources 😉

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## HRK

Shabi1 said:


> According to someone on this forum PAF shortlisted Denel and Chengdu for making a upgrade package for it's Mirages. Claimed Denel won the contract but could be that Chinese still in the race. Mirages are being retired but very likely we will retain few as specialist strike aircraft.


Who said this .... ??

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## ghazi52

A memorable picture of Air Marshal (R) Hifazat Ullah Khan

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## Gripen9

GriffinsRule said:


> In 1970, a Pakistani Mirage 3 was in California undergoing flight testing of a new compact infrared scanner intended as a low-altitude target acquisition sensor. It was meant for target acquisition for low flying targets that the radar would not be able to detect or track due to ground clutter. The sensor was itself housed on top front of the weapon pylon launching rail (way ahead of its time in some sense) and was cooled using liquid nitrogen. It was developed by Varadyne Systems.
> 
> Anyone has access to the Nov 2, 1970 issue of AW&ST to post more details and better pictures?
> 
> View attachment 780214


That is quite interesting especially at the time why would Pakistan give up a much needed main strike fighter of the time just as we were seeing heightened hostilities with India.

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## Deltadart

@denel
Is he still active on pdf?
Anybody know anything him?
He is the ultimate professional authority on mirages on this forum.

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

Mirage IIIRP

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## Sinnerman108

I upright officer.
Clean as a whistle...

I've had the pleasure of making his acquaintance; a gentleman through and through.



ghazi52 said:


> A memorable picture of Air Marshal (R) Hifazat Ullah Khan
> 
> 
> View attachment 782586

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

Mirage-III "Ex-RAAF".

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## ghazi52

The Legendary Deltas of PAF continue to soldier on and are relevant more than ever thanks to upgrades.




Saad Arfeen

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## Deltadart

What are some of the most recent upgrades, if any to the mirages?

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## Abid123

Should be replaced by J-10C.


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## Sinnerman108

For those who are interested, 
check out the crazy washout from this angle. 





ghazi52 said:


> The Legendary Deltas of PAF continue to soldier on and are relevant more than ever thanks to upgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saad Arfeen
> 
> 
> View attachment 784944

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Easy nae lene ka

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## Scorpiooo

Any update on Egyptians mirages, or deal is totally dead for good...


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> Any update on Egyptians mirages, or deal is totally dead for good...


I suspect it has gone dead. The time lines do not make any sense now and the rewards with the JFT and possibly J10 getting AESA seem limited. The only advantage would have been the MICA but I think that too is gone now with PL 15 coming online and SD10A maturing, it is now a mute point.
Regards

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## syed_yusuf

I think we are seeing last few years of this quality fighter


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## khanasifm

syed_yusuf said:


> I think we are seeing last few years of this quality fighter



Well two three years non for pg and then remaining mirages even say 3/4 sqn of mirages to replace that’s 6/7 years before last mirage sqn gets replaced so it’s safe at least this decade

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## syed_yusuf

Or if j10p then even faster


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## khanasifm

syed_yusuf said:


> Or if j10p then even faster



well 6 mirage sqns so 3/4 with jf-17 rest with whatever is coming …. Your guess is as good as mine


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## araz

khanasifm said:


> Well two three years non for pg and then remaining mirages even say 3/4 sqn of mirages to replace that’s 6/7 years before last mirage sqn gets replaced so it’s safe at least this decade


Historically PAF has only managed to replace one squadron a year. The reasons may be financial but establishing infrastructure for depot level maintenance including man power training takes time. We have 3 squadrons of PGs and many more of M3/5s. It seems PGs will get replaced with JFT. 3 Squadrons of M3/5s will get replaced by J10s??? If and when they come and this may happen simultaneously although it has not been done so far by PAF. 5-6 squadrons of M3s will go when we get more JFTS.
POST EDIT: We have 75 16s plus at least 130 plus JFTs. Total fleet strength is 410. We have 50 something PGs. It seems we may have 150 M3s to replace. 50ish are ROSE upgraded leaving another 100 planes. 50 of these might get replaced by J10. The rest will have to wait for block 3/4s. Still I see ROSE mirages sticking afound till 2025-28 depending on speed of integration of JFTs.
A

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## GriffinsRule

araz said:


> Historically PAF has only managed to replace one squadron a year. The reasons may be financial but establishing infrastructure for depot level maintenance including man power training takes time. We have 3 squadrons of PGs and many more of M3/5s. It seems PGs will get replaced with JFT. 3 Squadrons of M3/5s will get replaced by J10s??? If and when they come and this may happen simultaneously although it has not been done so far by PAF. 5-6 squadrons of M3s will go when we get more JFTS.
> POST EDIT: We have 75 16s plus at least 130 plus JFTs. Total fleet strength is 410. We have 50 something PGs. It seems we may have 150 M3s to replace. 50ish are ROSE upgraded leaving another 100 planes. 50 of these might get replaced by J10. The rest will have to wait for block 3/4s. Still I see ROSE mirages sticking afound till 2025-28 depending on speed of integration of JFTs.
> A


2050s for F-16AM/BMs, 2070s for F-16C/Ds (unless attrition depletes the fleet), 2030s for Mirages. F-7PGs will be replaced say by 2025, and after that, slowly the Mirages will start getting phased out over 10yrs or so.

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## Windjammer

Sleep Tight, PAF is awake.

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## Talon

Scorpiooo said:


> Any update on Egyptians mirages, or deal is totally dead for good...

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

*Second to None Pakistan Air Force*

The tale of the service that Mirage has given to PAF is nothing short of spectacular. Serving the nation for more than five decades alone is no ordinary achievement. That’s why all the unsung heroes who flew this bird in its heydays deserved nothing less than a standing ovation. And this is what they received in a dignified ceremony held in February. The President of Pakistan was present at the occasion to honour the distinguished services of the units, veterans and senior operators of this ‘Miracle Mirage’.
As this rugged platform becomes 50 years strong, it continues to pose an enormous threat to the adversary. Its sterling performance during Ops Swift Retort in the recent past is just one of many glaring examples. 
Read more in our article PAF’s Miracle Mirages 50 Years Strong by S.Khalil..

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## ghazi52

*
Mirage-iii turns 65 today;*
Took it’s maiden flight on 17-November 1956.
Pakistan Acquired their first batch of Mirage-iiis in 1968. Group Captain(R): M M Alam lead the first batch of pilots who trained on new Mach 2 jets.

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## ghazi52

Armed & Ready..

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## ANG

Hi, this is an interesting video on the SAAF Cheetah aircraft. The PAF should have implemented this upgrade paired with the Klimov RD33/93 engine. But that time has passed. My apologies if this has been posted earlier.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=584627206223312

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## Windjammer



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## hassan1



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

*
Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography*

Watchin' every motion in my foolish lover's game,
On this endless ocean, finally lovers know no shame,
Turning and returning to some secret place inside,
Watchin' in slow motion as you turn around and say,
Take my breath away!
Take my breath away!

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## air marshal

Pakistan Air Force Dassault Mirage 3DA - Photo by Zohaib Malik - Falcons.PK







falcons.pk

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ziaulislam

ANG said:


> Hi, this is an interesting video on the SAAF Cheetah aircraft. The PAF should have implemented this upgrade paired with the Klimov RD33/93 engine. But that time has passed. My apologies if this has been posted earlier.


PAF had new fighter with rd93, why would it spend money on an old fighter, ROSE upgrade as deemed enough and jet was suppose to be retired by 2020 though delays have pushed that date to 2030 now

there was an option to go big, that is to build a new fighter based upon mirage3 as ground up but that would mean two new fighters instead single one mas produced, wasnt worth it

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

A PAF Mirage III RP with the distinctive Camera nose.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Bit late but still Merry Christmas to our Christian Brother.

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## jamal18

ziaulislam said:


> PAF had new fighter with rd93, why would it spend money on an old fighter, ROSE upgrade as deemed enough and jet was suppose to be retired by 2020 though delays have pushed that date to 2030 now
> 
> there was an option to go big, that is to build a new fighter based upon mirage3 as ground up but that would mean two new fighters instead single one mas produced, wasnt worth it




Also I remember an interview with some PAF chief saying that you can only refurbish an aircraft so many times. I think that may be due to metal fatigue of the body.


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## ghazi52



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## Inception-06

Windjammer said:


> A PAF Mirage III RP with the distinctive Camera nose.
> 
> 
> View attachment 804210
> 
> View attachment 804211



Mare the camera functional ?


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## aziqbal

jamal18 said:


> Also I remember an interview with some PAF chief saying that you can only refurbish an aircraft so many times. I think that may be due to metal fatigue of the body.



I would be against retiring the Mirage fleet 

Mirage still is a very good fighter and recon aircraft 

PAF has rebuilt them from scratch extending the structural life

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer

Credit : HFK






Maybe last days of the ''Bandits'' operating the classic Mirage aircraft.

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## GriffinsRule



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## arjunk

Storm Force said:


> HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT a mirage 3/5 to last in a battle with 150 su30mki buzzing around.
> 
> the mki pesa radar will pik up that mirage from 140 km away. HE will launch one or 2 BVRs from 90 km away.
> 
> THE POOR MIRAGE PILOT radar will not pik up MKI from outside 40km
> 
> You will be sending good pilots to their death



This aged well

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Mirages could be repurposed for Air to Ground Role we do have 100 + might as well knock out some ground targets

They do have their own Air to Air ammunition


F-16 C/D (Air Superiority / Front Line)
J10-P (Air Superiority / Front Line )
JF-17 Block III (Air Superiority / Front Line)
JF-17 Block 2B (Multi Mission )
JF-17 Block 2 (Multi Mission )
JF-17 Block 1 (if any unit remains to be converted ) 
Mirage (Air to Ground / Support )
F-7P (Support)

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## Yasser76

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Mirages could be repurposed for Air to Ground Role we do have 100 + might as well knock out some ground targets
> 
> They do have their own Air to Air ammunition
> 
> 
> F-16 C/D (Air Superiority / Front Line)
> J10-P (Air Superiority / Front Line )
> JF-17 Block III (Air Superiority / Front Line)
> JF-17 Block 2B (Multi Mission )
> JF-17 Block 2 (Multi Mission )
> JF-17 Block 1 (if any unit remains to be converted )
> Mirage (Air to Ground / Support )
> F-7P (Support)



Yup, with JC-10, JF-17 and F-16 Mirage's are our least capable air defence fighters, best retire the Mirage IIIs and keep the ROSE ones for strike till we have enough JC-10s to replace them


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## Talon



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer

How is this for an over 50 year old airframe. The maintenance quality speaks volumes of PAC Engineers and PAF Ground Crew.

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## sneakerspark

Windjammer said:


> How is this for an over 50 year old airframe. The maintenance quality speaks volumes of PAC Engineers and PAF Ground Crew.
> 
> View attachment 808314


PAC keeping it airborne since 1967.

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## nomi007

Mirage IIIDL from No 22 OCU Squadron #Ghazis seen carrying H-4's datalink pod.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52



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## PanzerKiel

SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .

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## Primus

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


Alhamdulillah great news.

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## Sayfullah

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


Now? I thought they had this capability for a while?


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## untitled

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


Does the belly hardpoint have a dual rack?

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## The Eagle

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .



Busy bees never come short of surprises. Still, people want it to be retired today. And I say; if thing does the job well done like you don't talk but you shoot; what does it matter to have this or that shiny toy. Well-done boyees.

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## JamD

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed

If this is true then this can mean either:
1. The Chinese are willing to mate their missile to a Griffo radar. This might mean that the Italian radar option for the JF17 plus chinese missiles may have been more viable than originally thought. (and the Chinese radar won out based on capability and speed of integration and not some refusal of the Chinese to mate their missiles)
2. The Chinese installed a Chinese radar in the Mirage. AESA mirage 3?lol
3. This is just a statement about carrying the missile and not integration and firing.

Edit: 1 may be due to the induction of the PL15 and the existence of the PL15E, the SD10 isnt considered critical enough to be restricted in terms of integration.

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## Deltadart

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed
> 
> If this is true then this can mean either:
> 1. The Chinese are willing to mate their missile to a Griffo radar. This might mean that the Italian radar option for the JF17 plus chinese missiles may have been more viable than originally thought. (and the Chinese radar won out based on capability and speed of integration and not some refusal of the Chinese to mate their missiles)
> 2. The Chinese installed a Chinese radar in the Mirage. AESA mirage 3?lol
> 3. This is just a statement about carrying the missile and not integration and firing.
> 
> Edit: 1 may be due to the induction of the PL15 and the existence of the PL15E, the SD10 isnt considered critical enough to be restricted in terms of integration.


Option #2 sounds very interesting, whether it's viable is another matter.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed
> 
> If this is true then this can mean either:
> 1. The Chinese are willing to mate their missile to a Griffo radar. This might mean that the Italian radar option for the JF17 plus chinese missiles may have been more viable than originally thought. (and the Chinese radar won out based on capability and speed of integration and not some refusal of the Chinese to mate their missiles)
> 2. The Chinese installed a Chinese radar in the Mirage. AESA mirage 3?lol
> 3. This is just a statement about carrying the missile and not integration and firing.
> 
> Edit: 1 may be due to the induction of the PL15 and the existence of the PL15E, the SD10 isnt considered critical enough to be restricted in terms of integration.


tbh putting an AESA radar onto the Mirage III wouldn't be the craziest thing out there. The Israelis sort of did it with the Kfir Block-60. The question is whether the cost of doing it on the PAF's ROSE-Is is feasible enough. Perhaps there was an even smaller CETC AESA radar on offer?

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh putting an AESA radar onto the Mirage III wouldn't be the craziest thing out there. The Israelis sort of did it with the Kfir Block-60. The question is whether the cost of doing it on the PAF's ROSE-Is is feasible enough. Perhaps there was an even smaller CETC AESA radar on offer?


I do wonder. You keep track of all of these products, any viable options?


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## Deltadart

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh putting an AESA radar onto the Mirage III wouldn't be the craziest thing out there. The Israelis sort of did it with the Kfir Block-60. The question is whether the cost of doing it on the PAF's ROSE-Is is feasible enough. Perhaps there was an even smaller CETC AESA radar on offer?


As useful as the mirages have been to the defense of Pakistan, but the PAF always wanted to get rid of them at the first opportunity that never came their way. They didn't pursue the south African option, whereby they could have gained the valuable knowledge to make a brand new version of these jets at home. It's a sad and perhaps a criminal case of neglect, and missed opportunities. No one has ever been held responsible for this fiasco.
@denel

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I do wonder. You keep track of all of these products, any viable options?


I'm not knowledgeable of any specific products aside from KLJ-7A and LFK601. However, there are definitely other AESA radar options, e.g., the J-10CE likely uses a bigger system, while China's ISTAR drones likely carry much smaller SAR/GMTI radars. It wouldn't surprise me that there's a 500-600 TRM AESA radar on offer for small fighter applications like L-15. Something like that could be an option for the Mirage ROSE-I.

I wish we could troll by fitting an AESA radar, HMD/S, etc to the F-7PG. Call it Abhi-Bison and claim it can take out a Rafale.

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## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


Radar?

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## Ali_Baba

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .



If there are no pictures - then it didnot happen .... just saying .. 



JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed
> 
> If this is true then this can mean either:
> 1. The Chinese are willing to mate their missile to a Griffo radar. This might mean that the Italian radar option for the JF17 plus chinese missiles may have been more viable than originally thought. (and the Chinese radar won out based on capability and speed of integration and not some refusal of the Chinese to mate their missiles)
> 2. The Chinese installed a Chinese radar in the Mirage. AESA mirage 3?lol
> 3. This is just a statement about carrying the missile and not integration and firing.
> 
> Edit: 1 may be due to the induction of the PL15 and the existence of the PL15E, the SD10 isnt considered critical enough to be restricted in terms of integration.


4. Missile integrated for use with co-operative targetting via AEW&C / JF17s / F16s via Link-17.

PS - if they have done this - then i hope it is dual-rack. The centre line can take the weight and there is enough ground clearance for a dual rack.

The JF17 Block III has a belly mounted PL-15, so looks like PAF is finally getting into multi-missile payloads like it does with the F16s. "Logically" if it has integrated SD-10s via co-operative targetting - then there is no reason why you could not also adopt PL-15s once PAF gets some experience with the PL-15s.

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## MIRauf

I don't want to sound like a 'Debbie Downer' but what would be the Pros of 'five main Hardpoint and short legged' jet be to get the SD-10s, that too on center pylon ? It needs either center or two inner wing as fuel tanks to be relevant, unless it be escorting other M-III/V strike package but then what is the Point of JF-17 / J-10CP etc ?

Now if 'my wishful thinking', the fuel tank Pylon could carry SD-10 as well along with Fuel Tank 'ala F-15 style,' though very unlikely then one can say 'wow, cool, or even awesome.'

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## Ali_Baba

Does this mean we can "put at rest" all of the T-Darter / R-Darter "rumours from the early 2000's

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## aliyusuf

mingle said:


> Radar?


Grifo-M3 ... approx 70km detection range for 5m^2 RCS targets.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ali_Baba said:


> Does this mean we can "put at rest" all of the T-Darter / R-Darter "rumours from the early 2000's


Well to be fair, the R-Darter is a legacy BVRAAM at this point.

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## Ali_Baba

Also - does this mean that China is about to unveil the PL-21 since both SD-10B and PL15 are with the PAF ??? China always likes to have a n+1 interms of capability.

link : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...air-craft-news-discussions.3218/post-13540424

All this starting to feel like a pattern of disclosure for Chinese products that we have seen before. I am gonna wind up @Deino by saying "is China about to unveil the J10D with PL-21s and WS-15 engines ?" (it is a hobby of my'n now..)

The PL-21 is the missile in the middle on the link I have posted..

( btw - all this is a bit like conspiracy theories - if you say enough of them - eventually one of them will be correct ).


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## blain2

mingle said:


> Radar?


Grifo M3. BVR capable, all-weather look-down, shoot-down PDR. Equal to APG-66 in terms of capabilities.

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## JamD

Ali_Baba said:


> If there are no pictures - then it didnot happen
> 
> 
> 4. Missile integrated for use with co-operative targetting via AEW&C / JF17s / F16s via Link-17.
> 
> PS - if they have done this - then i hope it is dual-rack. The centre line can take the weight and there is enough ground clearance for a dual rack.
> 
> The JF17 Block III has a belly mounted PL-15, so looks like PAF is finally getting into multi-missile payloads like it does with the F16s. "Logically" if it has integrated SD-10s via co-operative targetting - then there is no reason why you could not also adopt PL-15s once PAF gets some experience with the PL-15s.


IMHO cooperative targeting isn't really as easy as you might think it is. Fire control radars work in frequencies especially suited to the precise information required by the missile, whereas the AEW&C is usually unable to provide this data to the required accuracy since it is optimized somewhat for detection range and not targeting precision. I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying that it is much harder than people think and requires very specific work and features. An AEW&C may be feeding targeting data from another fighter like JF-17 or F-16 to the Mirage through the AEW&C. This is probably the most useful scenario.

An actual number 4 might be simply that the Mirage ROSE1s will fire their SD-10's in active mode to harass enemy aircraft - no integration with radar required. It will be one hell of a missile at short range with that much energy.



Ali_Baba said:


> Also - does this mean that China is about to unveil the PL-21 since both SD-10B and PL15 are with the PAF ??? China always likes to have a n+1 interms of capability.
> 
> link : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...air-craft-news-discussions.3218/post-13540424
> 
> All this starting to feel like a pattern of disclosure for Chinese products that we have seen before. I am gonna wind up @Deino by saying "is China about to unveil the J10D with PL-21s and WS-15 engines ?" (it is a hobby of my'n now..)
> 
> The PL-21 is the missile in the middle on the link I have posted..
> 
> ( btw - all this is a bit like conspiracy theories - if you say enough of them - eventually one of them will be correct ).


Calm down sir lol.

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## blain2

Imran Khan said:


> missile itself is expensive then jet


Yes, but a smart move as all of these ROSE I Mirages are IFR capable as such in air defence roles, they would free up other HVAs like F-16s/JF-17s from AD duties with BVR OTH reach.

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## GumNaam

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


@PanzerKiel yaar pic tau banti hay...

so does that mean that the ROSE1 Mirages will carry Chinese KLJ7 Radars?

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## Sayfullah

How many ROSE 1 does Pakistan have?
Only ROSE 1 can fire it or other mirage as well?
Will it make ROSE 1 equivalent to Mirage 2000 in capability?


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## GumNaam

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> How many ROSE 1 does Pakistan have?
> Only ROSE 1 can fire it or other mirage as well?
> *Will it make ROSE 1 equivalent to Mirage 2000 in capability?*


As far as BVR is concerned, ROSE 1 will be better than the mirage2000 since SD-10s have a much greater range than anything mirage2000s can carry.

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## Sayfullah

GumNaam said:


> As far as BVR is concerned, ROSE 1 will be better than the mirage2000 since SD-10s have a much greater range than anything mirage2000s can carry.


What about in terms of radar or ew?


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## GumNaam

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> What about in terms of radar or ew?


shshshshshshsh...that's a secret.

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## GriffinsRule

This news makes little to no sense to me personally. Carrying 1 missile on a centerline hard point is bonkers esp on an aircraft with only 5 hard points. 
Only redeeming thing I see is that it's not an operational thing but more of a R&D move mating the Chinese missile with a European radar. 
What is also interesting is that only Mirages with ROSE-I upgrade were the 3Os from Australia and they are quiet old airframes. There is no information on whether the fewer (but newer) airframes acquired from Lebanon etc have been upgraded at all. 
Overall I think it's useful capability to have in the short term while you have the missiles in inventory and 30 odd jets that can use a BVR missile before they are replaced by JF-17. 
A valid question is why wasn't this option taken up 15-20 years ago when you had the same Mirages with Grifo M and missiles options

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## JamD

GumNaam said:


> @PanzerKiel yaar pic tau banti hay...


Artist's impression :p

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## Primus

JamD said:


> Artist's impression :p
> View attachment 812669


So can the SD10A be only equipped to the center pylon or can it be equipped onto the other 4?


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## JamD

GriffinsRule said:


> This news makes little to no sense to me personally. Carrying 1 missile on a centerline hard point is bonkers esp on an aircraft with only 5 hard points.
> Only redeeming thing I see is that it's not an operational thing but more of a R&D move mating the Chinese missile with a European radar.
> What is also interesting is that only Mirages with ROSE-I upgrade were the 3Os from Australia and they are quiet old airframes. There is no information on whether the fewer (but newer) airframes acquired from Lebanon etc have been upgraded at all.
> Overall I think it's useful capability to have in the short term while you have the missiles in inventory and 30 odd jets that can use a BVR missile before they are replaced by JF-17.
> A valid question is why wasn't this option taken up 15-20 years ago when you had the same Mirages with Grifo M and missiles options


Valid points. I wasn't expecting this if this is indeed true.

It MIGHT be an attempt to utilize JF-17 stocks of SD-10s since they are most likely to switch over to PL-15s. It might just be Mirages carrying SD-10s and firing them in active mode to be a nuisance to the enemy. That too has limited value in my opinion so I don't know.



Huffal said:


> So can the SD10A be only equipped to the center pylon or can it be equipped onto the other 4?


I have no idea I just made a pretty picture on paint.

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## Primus

JamD said:


> Valid points. I wasn't expecting this if this is indeed true.
> 
> It MIGHT be an attempt to utilize JF-17 stocks of SD-10s since they are most likely to switch over to PL-15s. It might just be Mirages carrying SD-10s and firing them in active mode to be a nuisance to the enemy. That too has limited value in my opinion so I don't know.
> 
> 
> I have no idea I just made a pretty picture on paint.


Wilco


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## HRK

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


If possible could you comment why it is integrated only on under fuselage hardpoint ... secondly is there any technical reason why underwing inner hardpoints could not carry SD-10

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## syed_yusuf

I will take this question further. Why invest in dead platform??

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

I think Pak has taken 02-26 to 02-28 events way more seriously than the Indians had anticipated. Now, even the 50 years old Mirages are being made BVR capable! What will they do to the younger platforms?? It's quite a message to India and her masters...

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## Gripen9

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


Technically Mirage was always BVR capable. Cyrano radar equipped MIII carried Matra 530 SARG missile on center pylon. One was actually fired in 1971 against a SU-7 or a Hunter but pilot had to break radar lock before the missile can hit the target.

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> I will take this question further. Why invest in dead platform??


Expendable airframe, or rather one that isn't high on operational readiness requirements and thus can be taken out of flying to mess around with? 
Could also just be a pilot program to test and validate things as well as train engineers for future programs under AZM. 
I would take this as a test program instead of anything operationally viable. Then the investment/$ spent can be justified.

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## blain2

GriffinsRule said:


> This news makes little to no sense to me personally. Carrying 1 missile on a centerline hard point is bonkers esp on an aircraft with only 5 hard points.
> Only redeeming thing I see is that it's not an operational thing but more of a R&D move mating the Chinese missile with a European radar.
> What is also interesting is that only Mirages with ROSE-I upgrade were the 3Os from Australia and they are quiet old airframes. There is no information on whether the fewer (but newer) airframes acquired from Lebanon etc have been upgraded at all.
> Overall I think it's useful capability to have in the short term while you have the missiles in inventory and 30 odd jets that can use a BVR missile before they are replaced by JF-17.
> A valid question is why wasn't this option taken up 15-20 years ago when you had the same Mirages with Grifo M and missiles options


If this is indeed operationalized, you have SD-10 on center, 2 WVR AAMs on wingtips. That is not a bad option for air defence roles. These Mirages probably have 5 years of service left before they are replaced by JF-17s so all in all, a decent stop-gap measure. Plus this would be the most potent Mirage III in the world!

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## HRK

blain2 said:


> If this is indeed operationalized, you have SD-10 on center, 2 WVR AAMs on wingtips. That is not a bad option for air defence roles. These Mirages probably have 5 years of service left before they are replaced by JF-17s so all in all, a decent stop-gap measure. Plus this would be the most potent Mirage III in the world!


inthis case I see change of role for Rose-I Mirage fleet they might act as intercepter with this load.

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## kursed

JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed
> 
> If this is true then this can mean either:
> 1. The Chinese are willing to mate their missile to a Griffo radar. This might mean that the Italian radar option for the JF17 plus chinese missiles may have been more viable than originally thought. (and the Chinese radar won out based on capability and speed of integration and not some refusal of the Chinese to mate their missiles)
> 2. The Chinese installed a Chinese radar in the Mirage. AESA mirage 3?lol
> 3. This is just a statement about carrying the missile and not integration and firing.
> 
> Edit: 1 may be due to the induction of the PL15 and the existence of the PL15E, the SD10 isnt considered critical enough to be restricted in terms of integration.


This post has all the ingredients of a teeli. @PanzerKiel would be enjoying watching Def PK turn itself inside out… with his evening tea.

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## Primus

Gripen9 said:


> Technically Mirage was always BVR capable. Cyrano radar equipped MIII carried Matra 530 SARG missile on center pylon. One was actually fire in 1971 against a SU-7 but pilot had to break radar lock before the missile can hit the target.


BVR is from 37km and onwards. The r530 SARH missile was a short range missile.


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## JamD

kursed said:


> This post has all the ingredients of a teeli. @PanzerKiel would be enjoying watching Def PK turn itself inside out… with his evening tea.


I'm aware of that possibility however I too sometimes get bored with counting the number of SH15s in service

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## Gripen9

Huffal said:


> BVR is from 37km and onwards. The r530 SARH missile was a short range missile.


Can you visually identify a fighter size object @ 37km?
Matra 530 / AIM-7B/C were first gen Semi Active Radar guided "all weather" missiles with ranges around 25km.


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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I'm not knowledgeable of any specific products aside from KLJ-7A and LFK601. However, there are definitely other AESA radar options, e.g., the J-10CE likely uses a bigger system, while China's ISTAR drones likely carry much smaller SAR/GMTI radars. It wouldn't surprise me that there's a 500-600 TRM AESA radar on offer for small fighter applications like L-15. Something like that could be an option for the Mirage ROSE-I.
> 
> I wish we could troll by fitting an AESA radar, HMD/S, etc to the F-7PG. Call it Abhi-Bison and claim it can take out a Rafale.



Innocent questions: Is AESA a must for SD10 or we can consider some PD Radars like from Thunder block II types?

Also, is that pointing towards some jointly produced but homegrown Radar solution as a first step?

Furthermore, does it indicates towards some protection for Mirage as an additional quality upgrade to fleet as a whole, in attack role without being vulnerable in defence while performing offensive mission?

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## GriffinsRule

blain2 said:


> If this is indeed operationalized, you have SD-10 on center, 2 WVR AAMs on wingtips. That is not a bad option for air defence roles. These Mirages probably have 5 years of service left before they are replaced by JF-17s so all in all, a decent stop-gap measure. Plus this would be the most potent Mirage III in the world!


Probably the only Mirage 3 in the world more like 🙂

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## The Eagle

GriffinsRule said:


> Probably the only Mirage 3 in the world more like 🙂



It makes sense if true. An AD fleet of Thunders and Soon retiring Mirages. It's like taking every last but of energy before they are grounded. Till then, will help in ease the work load, study, test and work on results. Let's test the SD-10 FnF mode with Mirage having capability to go supersonic. There must be some valuable output to do so.

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## syed_yusuf

One point we all missed is that of mirage is mach 2 capable. With true bvr and link 17 it could be very deadly to sweep area at high altitude at high speed

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## kursed

JamD said:


> I'm aware of that possibility however I too sometimes get bored with counting the number of SH15s in service


In all honesty, I'd be very surprised should PAF invest even a dime on this. To me, that'd seem like taking precious little resources away from getting a bigger B3 fleet.

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## JamD

kursed said:


> In all honesty, I'd be very surprised should PAF invest even a dime on this. To me, that'd seem like taking precious little resources away from getting a bigger B3 fleet.


I think everyone would be surprised. Which is why I've kind of converged to 


JamD said:


> It MIGHT be an attempt to utilize JF-17 stocks of SD-10s since they are most likely to switch over to PL-15s. It might just be Mirages carrying SD-10s and firing them in active mode to be a nuisance to the enemy. That too has limited value in my opinion so I don't know.


which seems like the lowest complexity/cost explanation of this IF this is true.

Of course what I'm suggesting isn't as simple as screwing an SD10 onto a pylon but it should be simpler than the other alternatives. An aero mechanical study would have to be carried out for carriage and separation.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> I think everyone would be surprised. Which is why I've kind of converged to
> 
> which seems like the lowest complexity/cost explanation of this IF this is true.
> 
> Of course what I'm suggesting isn't as simple as screwing an SD10 onto a pylon but it should be simpler than the other alternatives. An aero mechanical study would have to be carried out for carriage and separation.


I don't think they'd need to worry about the SD-10 stocks. It could always be a supplementary BVR for the J-10CEs and JF-17s, especially if they start using that dual-ejector-rack set-up.

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## JamD

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't think they'd need to worry about the SD-10 stocks. It could always be a supplementary BVR for the J-10CEs and JF-17s, especially if they start using that dual-ejector-rack set-up.


Not a worry about the stocks but a desire to have block 3s and J10s carry PL15s exclusively. Or so I am speculating.

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## Gripen9

JamD said:


> I think everyone would be surprised. Which is why I've kind of converged to
> 
> which seems like the lowest complexity/cost explanation of this IF this is true.
> 
> Of course what I'm suggesting isn't as simple as screwing an SD10 onto a pylon but it should be simpler than the other alternatives. An aero mechanical study would have to be carried out for carriage and separation.


Just for illustration... Colombian Kfir with Elta AESA, Derby, Python 5, litening pod and an LGB and spice on centerline 

Something similar could have been done Replace with KLJ7A, SD10, PL5e, Ra'ad. 
Kfirs are almost as old as Mirage 3 (maybe 10 years younger)

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## Iceman2

The Eagle said:


> It makes sense if true. An AD fleet of Thunders and Soon retiring Mirages. It's like taking every last but of energy before they are grounded. Till then, will help in ease the work load, study, test and work on results. Let's test the SD-10 FnF mode with Mirage having capability to go supersonic. There must be some valuable output to do so.


Is there a possibility that block 2 radrs capable of firing sd-10s which will now be converted to block 3 have been upgraded to mirages and therefore they can fire SD-10s it's cost effective as those spare block 2 radars won't be used now given block 2s will be converted to block 3 standards

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## kursed

JamD said:


> Not a worry about the stocks but a desire to have block 3s and J10s carry PL15s exclusively. Or so I am speculating.


I doubt PL-15 will be the primary weapon on Block 2 JF. A vast majority of JF will continue to use the SD-10A inventory.

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## JamD

kursed said:


> I doubt PL-15 will be the primary weapon on Block 2 JF. A vast majority of JF will continue to use the SD-10*A* inventory.

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## PanzerKiel

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> How many ROSE 1 does Pakistan have?
> Only ROSE 1 can fire it or other mirage as well?
> Will it make ROSE 1 equivalent to Mirage 2000 in capability?

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## Raja Porus

Abhi to mein jawan hon...


Btw since the Chief is of mirages thus from now on we will have a mirages lobby as well

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wish we could troll by fitting an AESA radar, HMD/S, etc to the F-7PG. Call it Abhi-Bison and claim it can take out a Rafale.

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## Chak Bamu

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


Congratulations indeed.

Can Mirage radar guide it to its max range? It would be great if it could. We have gained a bunch more BVR fighters. It also shows that SD-10 is a good counter. Bravo.



JamD said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed
> 
> If this is true then this can mean either:
> 1. The Chinese are willing to mate their missile to a Griffo radar. This might mean that the Italian radar option for the JF17 plus chinese missiles may have been more viable than originally thought. (and the Chinese radar won out based on capability and speed of integration and not some refusal of the Chinese to mate their missiles)
> 2. The Chinese installed a Chinese radar in the Mirage. AESA mirage 3?lol
> 3. This is just a statement about carrying the missile and not integration and firing.
> 
> Edit: 1 may be due to the induction of the PL15 and the existence of the PL15E, the SD10 isnt considered critical enough to be restricted in terms of integration.


Good points, all of them.

Imagine AESA on Mirage. Now that would be something.

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## DrWatson775

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


Great news , I was thinking whether this could be done with the Grifo radar or with another aircraft painting the target .


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## Bilal.

JamD said:


>


That stood out like a sore thumb


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## Ali_Baba

JamD said:


> Artist's impression :p
> View attachment 812669



I would be more impressed if you had a frontal shot showing a dual-rack SD-10 setup !! (if you can fit the Ra'ad / H2 / H4 under there - you can do a dual-rack ) 

As a side note - PAF has previously tested all new homegrown weapons on the Mirages first - so this could be experimentation of their new integration lab they created recently rather than a capability upgrade for the Mirages? Maybe the work on the Saab's and JF17s is starting to give them the confidence to do so ?

Given how much the PAF loved/loves the Mirages - it is odd they never bought the blue prints from Dassault for them or experimented with creating new airframes themselves or learnt how to experiment on the airframe itself ...

ps - I assume the the TOT for the Grifo 7/M's included the source code ?? ( does anyone know? ).

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## PanzerKiel

untitled said:


> Does the belly hardpoint have a dual rack?


Nopes dear, single point.



mingle said:


> Radar?


Grifo

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## The Eagle

Iceman2 said:


> Is there a possibility that block 2 radrs capable of firing sd-10s which will now be converted to block 3 have been upgraded to mirages and therefore they can fire SD-10s it's cost effective as those spare block 2 radars won't be used now given block 2s will be converted to block 3 standards



It is PAF. Why I say that? because we have the ability to squeeze every bit of it till very last moment. Indeed, JF-17 Block-II will be somehow upgraded to AESA. Spares & a working equipment can be dedicated to any other platform. I know it is not that easy like we post on the Forum but again, it is PAF... this is Pakistan. We can come up with some solutions to address our shortcomings due to finance and on other hand, we do know to add more capability to the already short fleet as quality matters. We keep the edge because of such smart choices in the past. There is a whole history to it. We have MRF. We have other facilities in-house. We have study. We have the ability to .............. We have been working closely with....... and even achieved a milestone which is acknowledged not in words but by the friends and we are looking at development which is attracted only after we have something in house as well.... at-least cooking. I had to omit few things. Conclusively, busy bees have many surprises.

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## PanzerKiel

MIRauf said:


> I don't want to sound like a 'Debbie Downer' but what would be the Pros of 'five main Hardpoint and short legged' jet be to get the SD-10s, that too on center pylon ? It needs either center or two inner wing as fuel tanks to be relevant, unless it be escorting other M-III/V strike package but then what is the Point of JF-17 / J-10CP etc ?
> 
> Now if 'my wishful thinking', the fuel tank Pylon could carry SD-10 as well along with Fuel Tank 'ala F-15 style,' though very unlikely then one can say 'wow, cool, or even awesome.'


Centre pylon ha been used since the already present wiring for smart bombs can be used for this purpose as well. Changing the wiring through the wings is a long process (i once saw a Mirage fully disassembled, saw the wiring, and got the point)



Ali_Baba said:


> Does this mean we can "put at rest" all of the T-Darter / R-Darter "rumours from the early 2000's


Yes, its parent company i believe went bankrupt.



GumNaam said:


> @PanzerKiel yaar pic tau banti hay...
> 
> so does that mean that the ROSE1 Mirages will carry Chinese KLJ7 Radars?


Nope, Grifo.



Jf-17 block 3 said:


> How many ROSE 1 does Pakistan have?
> Only ROSE 1 can fire it or other mirage as well?
> Will it make ROSE 1 equivalent to Mirage 2000 in capability?


30 odd. Only ROSE 1 have been configured to fire it. ROSE 2 and 3 remain dedicated strike.



Huffal said:


> So can the SD10A be only equipped to the center pylon or can it be equipped onto the other 4?


Centre only, due to wiring.



HRK said:


> If possible could you comment why it is integrated only on under fuselage hardpoint ... secondly is there any technical reason why underwing inner hardpoints could not carry SD-10


Due to already present wiring.



syed_yusuf said:


> I will take this question further. Why invest in dead platform??


Its slated to be there till 2038.



blain2 said:


> If this is indeed operationalized, you have SD-10 on center, 2 WVR AAMs on wingtips. That is not a bad option for air defence roles. These Mirages probably have 5 years of service left before they are replaced by JF-17s so all in all, a decent stop-gap measure. Plus this would be the most potent Mirage III in the world!


They have now been dedicated for CAP / fighter sweeps / OCAOs.



HRK said:


> inthis case I see change of role for Rose-I Mirage fleet they might act as intercepter with this load.


Fighter sweeps / CAPs / OCAOs.



Chak Bamu said:


> Congratulations indeed.
> 
> Can Mirage radar guide it to its max range?


Not at the moment.

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## untitled

PanzerKiel said:


> Its slated to be there till 2038.


If that is the case then we might as well start upgrading the ROSE 1s with KLJ7s.

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## aliyusuf

untitled said:


> If that is the case then we might as well start upgrading the ROSE 1s with KLJ7s.


Mirage may not have a nosecone broad enough to house the KLJ-7. A smaller antenna has to be installed. How that will affect the range performance remains to be seen.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


So basically we are going to use these 50 year old Baba G for next 50 years also.

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## MIRauf

@PanzerKiel
Thank you for your response kind sir, I do envy you and I do hope that you get to test fire it /wink.

So they ( PAF ) going for some variant of Grifo or Chinese option ? there was rumor in the past about home grown radar, that a possibility ? Skunk Work folks working on enhanced duel rack to make it much more meaningful threat ?



Zarvan said:


> So basically we are going to use these 50 year old Baba G for next 50 years also.


It seems Baba-jee still got some oomph left in them, or you can say that lessons learned off 26/27 Feb encounters highlighted the need for more CAPS thus needing more fighters on shoe-string budget.

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## Amaa'n

PanzerKiel said:


> SD10 had been successfully integrated on the belly hardpoint of Mirage ROSE 1. Congrats to all. Mirages have become BVR capable now .


You fired off the post here and entire twitter is having a meltdown over this

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## farooqbhai007

PanzerKiel said:


> Centre pylon ha been used since the already present wiring for smart bombs can be used for this purpose as well. Changing the wiring through the wings is a long process (i once saw a Mirage fully disassembled, saw the wiring, and got the point)
> 
> 
> Yes, its parent company i believe went bankrupt.
> 
> 
> Nope, Grifo.
> 
> 
> 30 odd. Only ROSE 1 have been configured to fire it. ROSE 2 and 3 remain dedicated strike.
> 
> 
> Centre only, due to wiring.
> 
> 
> Due to already present wiring.
> 
> 
> Its slated to be there till 2038.
> 
> 
> They have now been dedicated for CAP / fighter sweeps / OCAOs.
> 
> 
> Fighter sweeps / CAPs / OCAOs.
> 
> 
> Not at the moment.


Nice,
Mirage par SD10 ki khushi mey Panzerkiel humey Army Air defense par koi si nayi update dey ga. 😆 choti choti huwahishein hain

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## Deltadart

Zarvan said:


> So basically we are going to use these 50 year old Baba G for next 50 years also.


Just to put it in perspective, US has been flying B52s very effectively with appropriate upgrades since the 1950s. So surely we can do the same with the mirages until something better comes along to take their place that we can afford.

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## Gripen9

Deltadart said:


> Just to put it in perspective, US has been flying B52s very effectively with appropriate upgrades since the 1950s. So surely we can do the same with the mirages until something better comes along to take their place that we can afford.


Billions being spent on B-52 re-engine program as we speak. Third/Fourth generation of pilots flying the same platform their grandads flew. Affectionately known as BUFF - Big Ugly Fat F***ker


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## Deltadart

Gripen9 said:


> Billions being spent on B-52 re-engine program as we speak. Third/Fourth generation of pilots flying the same platform their grandads flew. Affectionately known as BUFF - Big Ugly Fat F***ker


Regardless, they still get the job done, otherwise, the USAF would have dumped them a long time ago.

Considering, the crooked nature of Pakistani society and political system, we will never be flush with funds to buy the toys of our choice to defend the motherland. So we got no choice but to make the best use of what we have.

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## Gripen9

Deltadart said:


> Regardless, they still get the job done, otherwise, the USAF would have dumped them a long time ago. Considering, the crooked nature of Pakistani society and political system, we will never be flush with funds to buy the toys of our choice to defend the motherland.


That is what I meant. It is an excellent platform that has served the USAF well over 70 years and its mission profile keeps evolving based on new threats. They are mothballing B-1Bs but B52s are still on active duty.

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## Sayfullah

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488973042332192788
These guys denying such thing happened. 
Guess they don’t use defence pk

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## GriffinsRule

dilpakistani said:


> oo bie deep strike role kai aircraft pai BVR!? kis khotay kai bachay nai laga dia.. Mirage is not and cannot be an omnirole fighter.. utterly stupid idea if true but i am pretty sure news is not true


Guess you don't know the difference between a Mirage III and V

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## iLION12345_1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488973042332192788
> These guys denying such thing happened.
> Guess they don’t use defence pk


I don’t like that guy anyways, I thought he was credible but he posts 20 things a day and 19 of them without sources or anything to back them up with. The one that does come out to be true is usually already posted by other people. People need to stop using him as a source.

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## Chak Bamu

A discussion of twitter accounts is useless, just like the accounts themselves. Please come back to the topic. Thanks.

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## Talon

dilpakistani said:


> oo bie deep strike role kai aircraft pai BVR!? kis khotay kai bachay nai laga dia.. Mirage is not and cannot be an omnirole fighter.. utterly stupid idea if true but i am pretty sure news is not true


Mind the language please

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## Deino

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes dear, single point.
> 
> 
> Grifo




Oh well ... would love to see a photo

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## Bilal.

Deino said:


> Oh well ... would love to see a photo


Even if true the chances of seeing a photo is next to nothing. We saw the photo of H4 after almost 2 decades and have still not seen a photo of R-Darter.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal. said:


> Even if true the chances of seeing a photo is next to nothing. We saw the photo of H4 after almost 2 decades and have still not seen a photo of R-Darter.


If the aircraft are going to be used in CAP roles then we should see photos sooner rather than later. H4s aren’t carried during CAP and weren’t used anywhere until 27th February 2019. OTOH the SD-10As will need to be constantly carried when the aircraft is flying at CAP.

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## araz

dilpakistani said:


> oo bie deep strike role kai aircraft pai BVR!? kis khotay kai bachay nai laga dia.. Mirage is not and cannot be an omnirole fighter.. utterly stupid idea if true but i am pretty sure news is not true


Please mind your language. Irrespective of your differences you do not disrespect anyone. You can disagree with an idea but use of foul language is not allowed.
Post reported.
A



Chak Bamu said:


> A discussion of twitter accounts is useless, just like the accounts themselves. Please come back to the topic. Thanks.


Back to the topic. This seems like an attempt to provide the M3s with some teeth . Iam uncertain what benefits it will bring although something is better than nothing. You cannot change the flying dynamics of the plane but again unsure about what other reasons behind the move.
How do you convert this platform into a multirole one without utilizing the wing HPs? The centerline HP is the only one that carries all the CMs and the SOWs.

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## Deino

Bilal. said:


> Even if true the chances of seeing a photo is next to nothing. We saw the photo of H4 after almost 2 decades and have still not seen a photo of R-Darter.




I know ....


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## peagle

It seems that everyone has been shocked by this development, but the available interpretations are missing few points.

I read this development in 3 ways.

1. Technical
Thank you guys for increasing my understand regarding this issue. We all recognise that this is not an easy step, and required considerable amount of expertise and conceptual thinking to create this match-up.
Pakistan has lots of other important programs, so PAF is not in a position to divert it’s technical or financial resources to this program, unless the intention was to derive broad benefits from this achievement.

Firstly, I suggest PAF wanted to prove to themselves what they can do, and second prove it's internal technical capabilities to the rest of the world.

2. Immediate
By developing a BVR capability on the Mirages, it adds another complexity, therefore costs of operation on the IAF towards any intended confrontation with Pakistan, possibly deter any intentions that may have been brewing. It immediately increases the potentially available BVR capable platforms for PAF. And, in the presence of Block 3, J10’s and AWACS the new capability of Mirages is very much deployable as part of a package.

3. Long term
As far as I am aware PAF does not maintain a credible reserve force, something many major forces tend to establish with time. Any of our older fighter aircraft’s are not fit as a reserve force for modern warfare. But, by developing such a capability in the Mirage, it allows the PAF to create credible reserve force even after their retirement, and with the support of other platforms, the Mirages should be able to provide a decent option for capability enhancement in a short war into the 2030’s. 

PAF would not make this effort and divert resources, for something that will be out of service in a few years, it already has its hands full. This effort provides the PAF with immediate capability boost, plus a long term platform on which to fulfil the numbers game. They will only need to be active for a short war, if it came about, that’s enough to provide extra cover as part of a wider package.

I think in those 3 scenarios, this development makes a lot of sense. Plus, the enemy will always be thinking how many aircraft have been converted, which will create a constant lack of certainty in their planning.

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## MIRauf

I could be wrong, however questions were raised in regards to no action taken against the hostiles on the 26th, the answer that was put forward was that the CAPs were not in the immediate zone. Now, almost most here acknowledge that M-IIIs are Mach 2.0 capable ( as few others have pointed out the advantage of speed,) so in similar context a mad dash to hot zone to launch a solo SD-10 a reason / justification under similar situation ?

This will still require either buddy system to queue the SD-10 ( Block-III painting the target ) or M-IIIs with new radar ( i.e. Grifo-E ) that could peak-a-boo lets say at 75KM+ to be effective as solo.

A definite cool and shrewd move by PAF, I do have to change my opinion as I had stated in my post on this.

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## Riz

I wish if we can add AMRAAMs on our mirages as well  French would be pissed off , wana see americans too


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## MIRauf

Riz said:


> I wish if we can add AMRAAMs on our mirages as well  French would be pissed off , wana see americans too


It is ok to antagonize the French 'Macron I mean' ( SD-10 should do it ) but not a good idea to do same with the US and void the T&C on F-16s and its ammo.

PS: Please no 'Sanction' word and what good they (F-16s) worth, PAF is still getting spare parts and other related services for them.

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## TsAr

I think if SD-10 has been mated to Mirages, this is just a technology demonstrator. Testing for something big.

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## Deltadart

Next we need a suitable aesa radar, and some sophisticated electronic gadgets, for offense and self protection, and our old warriors will be ready for the latest battles.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

peagle said:


> It seems that everyone has been shocked by this development, but the available interpretations are missing few points.
> 
> I read this development in 3 ways.
> 
> 1. Technical
> Thank you guys for increasing my understand regarding this issue. We all recognise that this is not an easy step, and required considerable amount of expertise and conceptual thinking to create this match-up.
> Pakistan has lots of other important programs, so PAF is not in a position to divert it’s technical or financial resources to this program, unless the intention was to derive broad benefits from this achievement.
> 
> Firstly, I suggest PAF wanted to prove to themselves what they can do, and second prove it's internal technical capabilities to the rest of the world.
> 
> 2. Immediate
> By developing a BVR capability on the Mirages, it adds another complexity, therefore costs of operation on the IAF towards any intended confrontation with Pakistan, possibly deter any intentions that may have been brewing. It immediately increases the potentially available BVR capable platforms for PAF. And, in the presence of Block 3, J10’s and AWACS the new capability of Mirages is very much deployable as part of a package.
> 
> 3. Long term
> As far as I am aware PAF does not maintain a credible reserve force, something many major forces tend to establish with time. Any of our older fighter aircraft’s are not fit as a reserve force for modern warfare. But, by developing such a capability in the Mirage, it allows the PAF to create credible reserve force even after their retirement, and with the support of other platforms, the Mirages should be able to provide a decent option for capability enhancement in a short war into the 2030’s.
> 
> PAF would not make this effort and divert resources, for something that will be out of service in a few years, it already has its hands full. This effort provides the PAF with immediate capability boost, plus a long term platform on which to fulfil the numbers game. They will only need to be active for a short war, if it came about, that’s enough to provide extra cover as part of a wider package.
> 
> I think in those 3 scenarios, this development makes a lot of sense. Plus, the enemy will always be thinking how many aircraft have been converted, which will create a constant lack of certainty in their planning.


In this era of the distributed air combats with secured links, EW etc., mirages maintaining a "radio silence" can be a cheap solution to put forward to fire the BVR missiles, from a relatively short distance, toward the targets picked by the assets 100s of kms away. I am pretty sure the remaing F-7s can be used for this purpose too! It's quite a "dead end" dilemma for the enemy planners....

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## GriffinsRule

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> In this era of the distributed air combats with secured links, EW etc., mirages maintaing a "radio silence" can be a cheap solution to put forward to fire the BVR missiles, from a relatively short distance, toward the targets picked by the assets 100s of kms away. I am pretty sure the remaing F-7s can be used for this purpose too! It's quite a "dead end" dilemma for the enemy planners....


That's the same approach as the IAF Mig-21s, but how effective it really is, given AEW assets in IAF, I have serious doubts of it's efficacy. PAF had not issues dealing with Mig-21 trying to sneak in.


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## Ali_Baba

TsAr said:


> I think if SD-10 has been mated to Mirages, this is just a technology demonstrator. Testing for something big.



I would agree with you - it is an odd decision - had they put a dual rack under the belly point with 2 x SD10's - then i would have been more convinced it was a capability upgrade - but a single one suggests it is more of a learning exercise on how to mate different systems from different vendors together and more an indication of what they are thinking about , experimenting with and learning for Project Azm.


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## araz

Deltadart said:


> Next we need a suitable aesa radar, and some sophisticated electronic gadgets, for offense and self protection, and our old warriors will be ready for the latest battles.


Personally to my very inexpert eye, it does not make sense to have the SD10 mated to the centre belly point with the wing pylons being there. 2 SD10s on inmer wing pylons would make a lot more sense. I understand the wiring issue and I suspect (as already related by @PanzerKiel) PAF has avoided unnecessary headache. I still think this is a demonstrator and the capability is of very little use other than a last ditch attempt at giving an old tiger its teeth ( or more appropriately 1tooth) back. The dynamics of the aircraft will always mean it will be useless in a modern war arena once it has expended its solitary weapon.
My 2 paisas worth and I am still trying to understand the logic behind it.

A

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## araz

MIRauf said:


> I could be wrong, however questions were raised in regards to no action taken against the hostiles on the 26th, the answer that was put forward was that the CAPs were not in the immediate zone. Now, almost most here acknowledge that M-IIIs are Mach 2.0 capable ( as few others have pointed out the advantage of speed,) so in similar context a mad dash to hot zone to launch a solo SD-10 a reason / justification under similar situation ?
> 
> This will still require either buddy system to queue the SD-10 ( Block-III painting the target ) or M-IIIs with new radar ( i.e. Grifo-E ) that could peak-a-boo lets say at 75KM+ to be effective as solo.
> 
> A definite cool and shrewd move by PAF, I do have to change my opinion as I had stated in my post on this.


I would humbly suggest that to throw a M3 in todays war arena dashing in at Mach 2 would not be a good idea. The only way I see this strategy being effective if the M3 was cruising on a CAP and saw enemy approaching or were vectored to a site from where the enemy was approaching. The problem is that if the platform SD10 misses its target and the platform goes into merge in WVR the Mirage will not do well.
Again my 2 paisas worth of pure arm chair General stuff trying to understand the reasons for it.
A


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

GriffinsRule said:


> That's the same approach as the IAF Mig-21s, but how effective it really is, given AEW assets in IAF, I have serious doubts of it's efficacy. PAF had not issues dealing with Mig-21 trying to sneak in.


Since PAF has beaten IAF in the EW domain, I think it's doable given the Mirage carries its own EW pod for the worst-case scenerio....


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## MIRauf

araz said:


> I would humbly suggest that to throw a M3 in todays war arena dashing in at Mach 2 would not be a good idea. The only way I see this strategy being effective if the M3 was cruising on a CAP and saw enemy approaching or were vectored to a site from where the enemy was approaching. The problem is that if the platform SD10 misses its target and the platform goes into merge in WVR the Mirage will not do well.
> Again my 2 paisas worth of pure arm chair General stuff trying to understand the reasons for it.
> A


I understand what you are saying / conveying, thus the painting by Block-II / III with AESA and M-III bugs out after launch. Just running some hypothetical scenarios to come to sense as to why would PAF pour resources into this project, our best guesstimates is what all we have.

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> Congratulations indeed.
> 
> Can Mirage radar guide it to its max range? It would be great if it could. We have gained a bunch more BVR fighters. It also shows that SD-10 is a good counter. Bravo.
> 
> 
> Good points, all of them.
> 
> Imagine AESA on Mirage. Now that would be something.


I think @messiach pointed to this possibility. I think it might be a bridge too far for these birds
A

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## The Eagle

To begin with placing the pieces of puzzle called M3 with SD-10, let's ask a few questions:

1- Where are these Mirages III are stationed?​​2- What's their duty role ATM?​3- What's the Radar capability of Mirages III so far?​​4- How SD-10 can add an offensive punch to existing Fleet of Mirage III fighters till their time for retirement?​5- How SD-10 with M-III can add firepower and help in active duties under threat assessment?​​6- What could be learning from a flight of pure delta wing loaded with SD-10 type BVR?​​7- What could be the detection range by adversary when a delta wing flies with active radar with SD-10 BVR?​​8- How can SD-10 helps Mirage III while performing current.duty roles?​9- How a Mach 2 flying delta Mirage III can be helpful acting as a carrier platform only for BVR where mothership will do the detection and launching duty?​​10- is it possible to have more BVRs in the air whereby M-III will be just a fast moving carrier and rest will be done by a separate AC through Link 17?​​11- Can it help for learning, experiment and further studies including Delta wing BVR launch characteristics, adversary's detection behavior even they had AESA, Delta Wings with BVR and Radar on mode to note RCS, BVR launch characteristics from Mach capable platform, centerline harnessing and launch pylon validation and possiblity to validate SD-10 type BVR capability relying on AEWACS Radar detection only while outranging Radar of launch platform, in FnF mode so that xyz missile will do its own job?​
Just trying to fuel the discussion whereby knowledgeable members can share their thoughts to help us all.

Pardon for long ranting question. Using cellphone.

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## SQ8

The Eagle said:


> To begin with placing the pieces of puzzle called M3 with SD-10, let's ask a few questions:
> 
> 1- Where are these Mirages III are stationed?​​2- What's their duty role ATM?​3- What's the Radar capability of Mirages III so far?​​4- How SD-10 can add an offensive punch to existing Fleet of Mirage III fighters till their time for retirement?​5- How SD-10 with M-III can add firepower and help in active duties under threat assessment?​​6- What could be learning from a flight of pure delta wing loaded with SD-10 type BVR?​​7- What could be the detection range by adversary when a delta wing flies with active radar with SD-10 BVR?​​8- How can SD-10 helps Mirage III while performing current.duty roles?​9- How a Mach 2 flying delta Mirage III can be helpful acting as a carrier platform only for BVR where mothership will do the detection and launching duty?​​10- is it possible to have more BVRs in the air whereby M-III will be just a fast moving carrier and rest will be done by a separate AC through Link 17?​​11- Can it help for learning, experiment and further studies including Delta wing BVR launch characteristics, adversary's detection behavior even they had AESA, Delta Wings with BVR and Radar on mode to note RCS, BVR launch characteristics from Mach capable platform, centerline harnessing and launch pylon validation and possiblity to validate SD-10 type BVR capability relying on AEWACS Radar detection only while outranging Radar of launch platform, in FnF mode so that xyz missile will do its own job?​
> Just trying to fuel the discussion whereby knowledgeable members can share their thoughts to help us all.
> 
> Pardon for long ranting question. Using cellphone.


1. Will eventually be pushed to a single Mirage base as Masroor transitions to either a JF-17 -J-10base or have 1 squadron stationed there. That being said, operational deployments are very different to where the aircraft normally sits. As an e.g. since 27/2/19 IAF Su-30s have been operating more frequently from what were traditionally Bison bases since they have lost complete confidence in that platform other than for Ambush CAPS. 

2. ROSE-I are primarily intercept and CAP.

3. Grifo M3 is equivalent to APG-68v2 in air to air with slightly less range. 

4. With a single missile it’s probably best focused on picking out IAF strike aircraft and forcing them to dump their loads and scrub their mission. That being said, the Mirage III has always had only a single hardpoint wired capable of supporting the targeting bus for a radar guided system. When they were delivered first to the PAF Mirage III’s carried a single R-530F which could be considered a BVR weapon in a sense if launched in perfectly optimum condition (does that make the PAF the first airforce in the region to operate such a weapon? Doesn’t matter… just preempting someone claiming it pointlessly)

5. See 3.

6. Nothing - the only thing is that unlike the R-530 which had to be shot off before engaging in WVR the SD-10 can be used in that range pretry effectively

7. Same as with any other aircraft - detection range is of the emissions coming from the Grifo first. The RCS of the M3 gives it away to something like a MKI around 160km or so at 5000ft head on.

9. Not possible with the avionics - however, the ability of the delta to slip into the transonic region at low level is important because that initial kinetic push provides very good range - basically making life difficult for Indian Jaguars trying to sneak in for interdiction and strike missions at tree top.

10. Too complex and not worth it

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## The Eagle

@SQ8 first of all; your input adds a lot of information & knowledge to begin with. Thank you.



The Eagle said:


> 8- How can SD-10 helps Mirage III while performing current.duty roles?



@SQ8 may I treat your answer same as see 4? I feel that both are same questions in conclusion.

Also, 


The Eagle said:


> 11- Can it help for learning, experiment and further studies including Delta wing BVR launch characteristics, adversary's detection behavior even they had AESA, Delta Wings with BVR and Radar on mode to note RCS, BVR launch characteristics from Mach capable platform, centerline harnessing and launch pylon validation and possiblity to validate SD-10 type BVR capability relying on AEWACS Radar detection only while outranging Radar of launch platform, in FnF mode so that xyz missile will do its own job?


This question was merely pointing towards the possibility of learning process only in regard to SD-10 on Mirage-III and not to be deployed in active duty, as some of our members pointed out.


Wanted to confirm your response on both these questions as I will compile these starters and your input like a document so may not be lost in conversation.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

Here is what I think, maybe it's been said here b4. M3 with sd10 means the centre line pylon can also host other Chinese equipment. EW pods for example. on 27 feb we saw how effective the EW deployment was but now a change in tactics is required in the EW tactics. from my understanding, the EW pods are not just self-protection pods but have effective zone jamming capability. A match 2 aircraft that can slip in and out of engagement zone and can provide EW umbrella to CAS or strike platforms around it seems like an ideal situation. Basically the f 18 growler type situation. SD10 incorporation is maybe a test to see how well PAF can integrate western and Chinese equipment.


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## SQ8

The Eagle said:


> @SQ8 first of all; your input adds a lot of information & knowledge to begin with. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> @SQ8 may I treat your answer same as see 4? I feel that both are same questions in conclusion.
> 
> Also,
> 
> This question was merely pointing towards the possibility of learning process only in regard to SD-10 on Mirage-III and not to be deployed in active duty, as some of our members pointed out.
> 
> 
> Wanted to confirm your response on both these questions as I will compile these starters and your input like a document so may not be lost in conversation.


Really isn’t an analogy to other deltas. The metrics important in BVR launches all relate to energy. The RCS calculations are two different platforms where really it has no bearing as such. The PAF Has done all of those metrics on the M3/5 aa part of a different project some 20-25 years ago. 

At the end, its just the need for a strike platform which the Mirages provide. Having the SD-10 might have been a low hanging fruit which was exploited and gives a fairly potent (if limited ammo) weapon for them to use. 

It also allows the PAF some leeway to use the JF-17s for stand off strike or escort missions freeing them up from CAPs

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## m52k85

The Eagle said:


> To begin with placing the pieces of puzzle called M3 with SD-10, let's ask a few questions:
> 
> 1- Where are these Mirages III are stationed?​​2- What's their duty role ATM?​3- What's the Radar capability of Mirages III so far?​​4- How SD-10 can add an offensive punch to existing Fleet of Mirage III fighters till their time for retirement?​5- How SD-10 with M-III can add firepower and help in active duties under threat assessment?​​6- What could be learning from a flight of pure delta wing loaded with SD-10 type BVR?​​7- What could be the detection range by adversary when a delta wing flies with active radar with SD-10 BVR?​​8- How can SD-10 helps Mirage III while performing current.duty roles?​9- How a Mach 2 flying delta Mirage III can be helpful acting as a carrier platform only for BVR where mothership will do the detection and launching duty?​​10- is it possible to have more BVRs in the air whereby M-III will be just a fast moving carrier and rest will be done by a separate AC through Link 17?​​11- Can it help for learning, experiment and further studies including Delta wing BVR launch characteristics, adversary's detection behavior even they had AESA, Delta Wings with BVR and Radar on mode to note RCS, BVR launch characteristics from Mach capable platform, centerline harnessing and launch pylon validation and possiblity to validate SD-10 type BVR capability relying on AEWACS Radar detection only while outranging Radar of launch platform, in FnF mode so that xyz missile will do its own job?​
> Just trying to fuel the discussion whereby knowledgeable members can share their thoughts to help us all.
> 
> Pardon for long ranting question. Using cellphone.


I would also add, how does this complicate IAF's mission planning and response? How do they respond when they see a flight of Mirages on their Early Warning ground/ air radars? Mind you radars cann't tell Mirage ROSE I apart from all other Mirages in PAF inventory. Do they still assume they can scramble Mig-21s to deal with such a flight?

If we can understand the answers to these questions we can understand the capability multiplication such an integration brings. Hell, I wouldnt be surprised if Major Panzer breaks the same news on PGs next.



SQ8 said:


> 7. Same as with any other aircraft - detection range is of the emissions coming from the Grifo first. The RCS of the M3 gives it away to something like a MKI around 160km or so at 5000ft head on.


Only if the Grifo is always emitting. I dont think thats a fair assumption.

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## HRK

*IF *_I am not wrong it was Mirage jet which lured Abhinandan into Pakistan he was trying to shoot down the Mirage which was returning back to Pakistan after successfully guiding the H-4 glide weapon._

So in this case we can understand that our Mirage Jets were toothless against the incoming MiG-21 interception package and was saved only by the launch of AIM-120 from F-16 which was flying CAP near LOC, _therefore this attempt of integrating SD-10 with Mirage might be the lesson PAF learned after analysing the events of 27 Feb, 2019._ This is where we should focus in our discussion related to the integration of SD-10 with Mirage jets. 

BUT in this scenario the question which still I can not comprehend is: 

_The Centerline hardpoint of the Mirage Jet is the only hardpoint which could carry H-2/H-4 and its guidance and communication pod so if SD-10 is also integrated on centerline than how its is useful .... ???_

We could either carry guidance & communication pod or SD-10 BVR on the centerline hardpoint of the Mirage strike team, keep in mind the employment of H-series weapon take two Mirage Jets one for the launch of H-2/H-4 and second for the guidance of H-series weapon. This leave no space for SD-10 on centerline hard point, on the reverse of this guidance/communication pod would have to be left If SD-10 is to be carried on that hardpoint.

*I am really getting more confused thinking on this lines.*

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## Talon

HRK said:


> *IF *_I am not wrong it was Mirage jet which lured Abhinandan into Pakistan he was trying to shoot down the Mirage which was returning back to Pakistan after successfully guiding the H-4 glide weapon._
> 
> So in this case we can understand that our Mirage Jets were toothless against the incoming MiG-21 interception package and was saved only by the launch of AIM-120 from F-16 which was flying CAP near LOC, _therefore this attempt of integrating SD-10 with Mirage might be the lesson PAF learned after analysing the events of 27 Feb, 2019._ This is where we should focus in our discussion related to the integration of SD-10 with Mirage jets.
> 
> BUT in this scenario the question which still I can not comprehend is:
> 
> _The Centerline hardpoint of the Mirage Jet is the only hardpoint which could carry H-2/H-4 and its guidance and communication pod so if SD-10 is also integrated on centerline than how its is useful .... ???_
> 
> We could either carry guidance & communication pod or SD-10 BVR on the centerline hardpoint of the Mirage strike team, keep in mind the employment of H-series weapon take two Mirage Jets one for the launch of H-2/H-4 and second for the guidance of H-series weapon. This leave no space for SD-10 on centerline hard point, on the reverse of this guidance/communication pod would have to be left If SD-10 is to be carried on that hardpoint.
> 
> *I am really getting more confused thinking on this lines.*


If and only if PAF wants to give BVR capability to Mirages in the light of 27 Feb events, then it makes sense to *first make sure this ft is achievable or not. *Which as per OPs claim has been achieved. PAF can then move on to upgrading HPs on wings and make them capable to carry and host BVR missiles. So doing initial testing on center line makes sense instead of wiring the wing HPs and then testing if it's achievable or not.

But yes a lot of factors like cost would need to be considered as well.

Anyways, in a what if scenario of PAF being able to operationalize SD-10 on Mirage's wings HPs, this loadout could be promising and fill some gaps :
2 SD-10
2 DPTs
1 H4/Pod

Someone here on the forum said that PAF plans to keep Mirages flying till 2038 ( not sure if it was a pun? ) .. in that case this project makes sense.. No?

P.s These are just my thoughts.. I am not even aware if wing HPs can be wired for this purpose or not.

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## PanzerKiel

Hodor said:


> If and only if PAF wants to give BVR capability to Mirages in the light of 27 Feb events, then it makes sense to *first make sure this ft is achievable or not. *Which as per OPs claim has been achieved. PAF can then move on to upgrading HPs on wings and make them capable to carry and host BVR missiles. So doing initial testing on center line makes sense instead of wiring the wing HPs and then testing if it's achievable or not.
> 
> But yes a lot of factors like cost would need to be considered as well.
> 
> Anyways, in a what if scenario of PAF being able to operationalize SD-10 on Mirage's wings HPs, this loadout could be promising and fill some gaps :
> 2 SD-10
> 2 DPTs
> 1 H4/Pod
> 
> Someone here on the forum said that PAF plans to keep Mirages flying till 2038 .. in that case this project makes sense.. to me atleast.
> 
> P.s These are just my thoughts.. I am not even aware if wing HPs can be wired for this purpose or not.


Present ones have been configured for 1 SD10, 2 DPTs, 2 AIM9s.

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## Talon

Also, are Ghazis equipped with Rose-1?



PanzerKiel said:


> Present ones have been configured for 1 SD10, 2 DPTs, 2 AIM9s.


Yes but I am talking about a strike package loadout as @HRK mentioned 27th February events.

The loadout you mentioned is totally AA config and imo PAF doesn't need that . F-16 ,J-10 and JF-17 can already do that job effectively. 

To me, the issue is vulnerability of Mirages so making them capable enough to not totally relay on escort/sweep needs to be addressed.

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## PanzerKiel

Hodor said:


> Also, are Ghazis equipped with Rose-1?


7 mirage squadrons 
7 squadron ROSE 1
CCS Mirage squadron ROSE 1
8 squadron NON ROSE 
15 squadron (now 50 squadron as 15 cobras will be J10 now) NON ROSE
22 squadron NON ROSE
25 squadron ROSE 2
27 squadron ROSE 3



Hodor said:


> Al
> 
> The loadout you mentioned is totally AA config and imo PAF doesn't need that .


There is a special need which has freshly come up. Lets wait for another 27 Feb.

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## Talon

PanzerKiel said:


> 7 mirage squadrons
> 7 squadron ROSE 1
> CCS Mirage squadron ROSE 1
> 8 squadron NON ROSE
> 15 squadron (now 50 squadron as 15 cobras will be J10 now) NON ROSE
> 22 squadron NON ROSE
> 25 squadron ROSE 2
> 27 squadron ROSE 3
> 
> 
> There is a special need which has freshly come up. Lets wait for another 27 Feb.


So both H weapon equipped squadrons are Non ROSE .. hmmm , my what if scenario doesn't make sense then lol , unless PAF makes some changes in deployments.

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## Gripen9

If the Grifo-M / SD-10 mating works, better would be to interface with Grio-7 on PGs. A PG armed with 2xAim9L, 2xSD-10 will give any incomming Jag or M2k a headache.

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## JamD

Gripen9 said:


> If the Grifo-M / SD-10 mating works, better would be to interface with Grio-7 on PGs. A PG armed with 2xAim9L, 2xSD-10 will give any incomming Jag or M2k a headache.


The Grifo-M is able to look much further out than the Grifo-7. @PanzerKiel has said that the SD-10 has been mated to the radar so it wouldn't just be fired in active mode and thus limited range of the Grifo-7 probably limits the utility of an SD-10 on it.

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## Gripen9

JamD said:


> The Grifo-M is able to look much further out than the Grifo-7. @PanzerKiel has said that the SD-10 has been mated to the radar so it wouldn't just be fired in active mode and thus limited range of the Grifo-7 probably limits the utility of an SD-10 on it.


Yes you are right. Grifo-7 is a smaller radar. But how much is the tracking range variance? PGs are very potent knife fighters with decent airframe life on them.

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## JamD

Gripen9 said:


> Yes you are right. Grifo-7 is a smaller radar. But how much is the tracking range variance? PGs are very potent knife fighters with decent airframe life on them.


I don't know numbers but I would guess the M can track approximately twice as far as the 7 (total guess). Since the SD10 is a BVR weapon, tracking range matters, I doubt the 7 can utilize any decent BVR so it is not worth the effort.

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## Gripen9

JamD said:


> I don't know numbers but I would guess the M can track approximately twice as far as the 7 (total guess). Since the SD10 is a BVR weapon, tracking range matters, I doubt the 7 can utilize any decent BVR so it is not worth the effort.


Grifo -M vs Grifo-7M2 (on PG) tracking range 80 nm vs 45ish nm. Like you said around half.

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## JamD

Gripen9 said:


> Grifo -M vs Grifo-7M2 (on PG) tracking range 80 nm vs 45ish nm. Like you said around half.


Wow I guess good hahaha. Where'd you get those numbers?


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## Raider 21

JamD said:


> Valid points. I wasn't expecting this if this is indeed true.
> 
> It MIGHT be an attempt to utilize JF-17 stocks of SD-10s since they are most likely to switch over to PL-15s. It might just be Mirages carrying SD-10s and firing them in active mode to be a nuisance to the enemy. That too has limited value in my opinion so I don't know.
> 
> 
> I have no idea I just made a pretty picture on paint.


Likely getting all remainder fighter assets to be BVR capable

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## MIRauf

Gripen9 said:


> Grifo -M vs Grifo-7M2 (on PG) tracking range 80 nm vs 45ish nm. Like you said around half.


That is very nice for a PD radar tucked inside M-III small nose cone, one would have expected it to be about half of the quoted range.


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## Gripen9

JamD said:


> Wow I guess good hahaha. Where'd you get those numbers?








Grifo radar - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Yes it is wikipedia, but I got corroborating nod from a "source".

Look up *Grifo-Mk-II (installed on PG)
G-M3/5*

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## Hassan Imtiaz

Well no expert & mostly a reader . But just got a scenario in mind so would like to share.

May be j10cs can take the role of strike & as F7-pgs make their way out, Mirages can act as interceptors, which can carry bvrs. They do have speed & having even a single bvr can prove vital.


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## GriffinsRule

@SQ8 @JamD @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

Question on the mechanics of adding wirings for underwing hard points to be able to carry smart/guided munitions and adding hard point under the intake for a EW pod. How feasible would that be as a pilot program for Kamra to undertake, given it's been rebuilding Mirages for decades now.

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## HRK

GriffinsRule said:


> @SQ8 @JamD @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> Question on the mechanics of adding wirings for underwing hard points to be able to carry smart/guided munitions and adding hard point under the intake for a EW pod. How feasible would that be as a pilot program for Kamra to undertake, given it's been rebuilding Mirages for decades now.


As per quoted post of @PanzerKiel it is a long process which might take additional financial resources and time as well in testing of new wirings otherwise we already have harness factory which look after the harness of all the aircrafts in use of PAF, so *IMHO* if the PAF boses decide than on technical grounds it should not be considered something unattainable.



PanzerKiel said:


> Centre pylon ha been used since the already present wiring for smart bombs can be used for this purpose as well. *Changing the wiring through the wings is a long process (i once saw a Mirage fully disassembled, saw the wiring, and got the point)*

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## GriffinsRule

HRK said:


> As per quoted post of @PanzerKiel it is a long process which might take additional financial resources and time as well in testing of new wirings otherwise we already have harness factory which look after the harness of all the aircrafts in use of PAF, so *IMHO* if the PAF boses decide than on technical grounds it should not be considered something unattainable.


So could've been done during overhauls


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## HRK

GriffinsRule said:


> So could've been done during overhauls


can't say with surety but I think there should not be a problem of such magnitude which could prevent the rewiring of hardpoints at wings.

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## SQ8

GriffinsRule said:


> @SQ8 @JamD @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> Question on the mechanics of adding wirings for underwing hard points to be able to carry smart/guided munitions and adding hard point under the intake for a EW pod. How feasible would that be as a pilot program for Kamra to undertake, given it's been rebuilding Mirages for decades now.


Will have to cut through metal to get there and then there will be more maths required if you make even a 1/4 drill in the structure of the aircraft. There are provisions of wiring within the aircraft itself but then you need to make sure it fits within the already tight confines of the existing wiring and has enough protection so it doesn’t get chaffed during G’s . So it is doable but the effort required will have to weighed as being cost effective or not. Finally, it isn’t like the Mirage wont need the fuel tanks so where do you put them. The mirage is 5 hardpoints with some wiring - so not many places to use.

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## untitled

SQ8 said:


> There are provisions of wiring within the aircraft itself but then you need to make sure it fits within the already tight confines of the existing wiring and has enough protection so it doesn’t get chaffed during G’s


Aren't there any wireless options which can transmit radar data to the pylon or missile itself?


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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> @SQ8 @JamD @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> Question on the mechanics of adding wirings for underwing hard points to be able to carry smart/guided munitions and adding hard point under the intake for a EW pod. How feasible would that be as a pilot program for Kamra to undertake, given it's been rebuilding Mirages for decades now.


I would add to this and ask the outer pylons are already wired for AAMs. How difficult would be wiring the inner pylons?
A

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## SQ8

untitled said:


> Aren't there any wireless options which can transmit radar data to the pylon or missile itself?


None that would be reliable/available - and you need to provide more power to everything as well - there are forces that are exerted on all these options which aren’t catered to by commerical-off-the-shelf solutions.

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## PakShaheen79

I think this latest development is not a goal in itself but a mean to get something further. PAF is looking to integrate Eastern weapons with Western fighter usually, it used to be a other way around. Chinese platform would get a European avionics/weapon package PGs is a prime example. For JF-17, a similar thing was envisioned in the form of RC-400+MICA combo... but this latest trend tells vividly that things have changed. PAF has far more confident on Chinese platforms than it used to have in the past. Now coming back to SD-10 integration on Mirage... Things will be clear in coming months but since I read this news I, for some odd reasons, cannot get this pic from my mind from the latest edition of Zuhai airshow. There is a clear possibility that things will move towards more Chinese weapons on Mirages.

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## araz

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think this latest development is not a goal in itself but a mean to get something further. PAF is looking to integrate Eastern weapons with Western fighter usually, it used to be a other way around. Chinese platform would get a European avionics/weapon package PGs is a prime example. For JF-17, a similar thing was envisioned in the form of RC-400+MICA combo... but this latest trend tells vividly that things have changed. PAF has far more confident on Chinese platforms than it used to have in the past. Now coming back to SD-10 integration on Mirage... Things will be clear in coming months but since I read this news I, for some odd reasons, cannot get this pic from my mind from the latest edition of Zuhai airshow. There is a clear possibility that things will move towards more Chinese weapons on Mirages.
> View attachment 813347


PL10e and HMCS! Now that might make a few sphincters cry ouch!!!!!!
A

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## Deltadart

araz said:


> PL10e and HMCS! Now that might make a few sphincters cry ouch!!!!!!
> A


Especially the sphincters of the veg eaters, among others.

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## GriffinsRule

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think this latest development is not a goal in itself but a mean to get something further. PAF is looking to integrate Eastern weapons with Western fighter usually, it used to be a other way around. Chinese platform would get a European avionics/weapon package PGs is a prime example. For JF-17, a similar thing was envisioned in the form of RC-400+MICA combo... but this latest trend tells vividly that things have changed. PAF has far more confident on Chinese platforms than it used to have in the past. Now coming back to SD-10 integration on Mirage... Things will be clear in coming months but since I read this news I, for some odd reasons, cannot get this pic from my mind from the latest edition of Zuhai airshow. There is a clear possibility that things will move towards more Chinese weapons on Mirages.
> View attachment 813347


Mirage 2000 though and its underwing harpoints are already capable of carrying a-a and a-g weapons.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

I think Pak should get the Egyptian Mirages if they're retired using KSA, UAE and Qatar connections....


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## The Eagle

PanzerKiel said:


> 7 mirage squadrons
> 7 squadron ROSE 1
> CCS Mirage squadron ROSE 1
> 8 squadron NON ROSE
> 15 squadron (now 50 squadron as 15 cobras will be J10 now) NON ROSE
> 22 squadron NON ROSE
> 25 squadron ROSE 2
> 27 squadron ROSE 3
> 
> 
> There is a special need which has freshly come up. Lets wait for another 27 Feb.



Mirages from No. 15 & 25 SQN participated in recent National Air Defence Exercise concluded on 3rd Feb, 2022. Was wondering about AD role for these Mirages?





All BVR capable fleet getting into shape, thou.

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## denel

Ali_Baba said:


> Does this mean we can "put at rest" all of the T-Darter / R-Darter "rumours from the early 2000's


There was just talk but there was none transferred. I spoke with a colleague who confirmed, this never happened.



The Eagle said:


> Mirages from No. 15 & 25 SQN participated in recent National Air Defence Exercise concluded on 3rd Feb, 2022. Was wondering about AD role for these Mirages?
> View attachment 813743
> 
> 
> All BVR capable fleet getting into shape, thou.


man,.... dont show us our first girlfriend.... M3/5.... it makes us euphoric

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## Talon

The Eagle said:


> Mirages from No. 15 & 25 SQN participated in recent National Air Defence Exercise concluded on 3rd Feb, 2022. Was wondering about AD role for these Mirages?
> View attachment 813743
> 
> 
> All BVR capable fleet getting into shape, thou.


Pictures/videos are actually from Inter squadron armament competition 2019 , some clips are even older . I don't think all these squadrons necessarily participated in the exercise.

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## The Eagle

Hodor said:


> Pictures/videos are actually from Inter squadron armament competition 2019 , some clips are even older . I don't think all these squadrons necessarily participated in the exercise.



Surprise to see them Media wing becoming more like our private news media outlets posting a jet fighter merely for the sake of reference. At-least mirage picture can be relevant as if participated in the exercise.

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## Talon

The Eagle said:


> Surprise to see them Media wing becoming more like our private news media outlets posting a jet fighter merely for the sake of reference. At-least mirage picture can be relevant as if participated in the exercise.


420 participated in ISAC .. picture is definitely from the same exercise. But yes if the sqn participated in the said exercise then kinda relevant.

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## arjunk

HRK said:


> *IF *_I am not wrong it was Mirage jet which lured Abhinandan into Pakistan he was trying to shoot down the Mirage which was returning back to Pakistan after successfully guiding the H-4 glide weapon._
> 
> So in this case we can understand that our Mirage Jets were toothless against the incoming MiG-21 interception package and was saved only by the launch of AIM-120 from F-16 which was flying CAP near LOC, _therefore this attempt of integrating SD-10 with Mirage might be the lesson PAF learned after analysing the events of 27 Feb, 2019._ This is where we should focus in our discussion related to the integration of SD-10 with Mirage jets.
> 
> BUT in this scenario the question which still I can not comprehend is:
> 
> _The Centerline hardpoint of the Mirage Jet is the only hardpoint which could carry H-2/H-4 and its guidance and communication pod so if SD-10 is also integrated on centerline than how its is useful .... ???_
> 
> We could either carry guidance & communication pod or SD-10 BVR on the centerline hardpoint of the Mirage strike team, keep in mind the employment of H-series weapon take two Mirage Jets one for the launch of H-2/H-4 and second for the guidance of H-series weapon. This leave no space for SD-10 on centerline hard point, on the reverse of this guidance/communication pod would have to be left If SD-10 is to be carried on that hardpoint.
> 
> *I am really getting more confused thinking on this lines.*



Re wiring the spaghetti wires and spaghetti code in the ancient mirages is not an easy task. If they are really desperate theoretically they can add another independent system wired to "dumb hardpoints" just for guiding SD-10s. But you may end up with a plane like India's Su-30MKIs, where half of the plane can't communicate with the other half.

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## araz

arjunk said:


> Re wiring the spaghetti wires and spaghetti code in the ancient mirages is not an easy task. If they are really desperate theoretically they can add another independent system wired to "dumb hardpoints" just for guiding SD-10s. But you may end up with a plane like India's Su-30MKIs, where half of the plane can't communicate with the other half.


It will possibly require an update with full rewiring and then testing which could take a year or so. Upgrading platforms could then start and will take years. The life of the platforms requires quick fixes till they can be-retired. 
A


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## ziaulislam

So no word on eygptians mirages
Is that a dead horse or is there any hope

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## Windjammer

The advent of the likes of Go Pro Cameras means we are privileged to view the locations and angles which normally only a fighter pilot would be in a position to see.
A PAF Mirage pilot pulling out of his base.

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## PanzerKiel

Windjammer said:


> The advent of the likes of Go Pro Cameras means we are privileged to view the locations and angles which normally only a fighter pilot would be in a position to see.
> A PAF Mirage pilot pulling out of his base.
> 
> 
> View attachment 814516


Thats a 15 Squadron Mirage.

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## AMG_12

Windjammer said:


> The advent of the likes of Go Pro Cameras means we are privileged to view the locations and angles which normally only a fighter pilot would be in a position to see.
> A PAF Mirage pilot pulling out of his base.
> 
> 
> View attachment 814516


Seems like PAF Rafiqui

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## jupiter2007

Too late for these… they should be decommissioned and stay in storages.

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## mingle

Windjammer said:


> The advent of the likes of Go Pro Cameras means we are privileged to view the locations and angles which normally only a fighter pilot would be in a position to see.
> A PAF Mirage pilot pulling out of his base.
> 
> 
> View attachment 814516


Seems to me Rafiqi Shorkot

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## Reichmarshal

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 814658


A bad photoshop

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## arjunk

Windjammer said:


> The advent of the likes of Go Pro Cameras means we are privileged to view the locations and angles which normally only a fighter pilot would be in a position to see.
> A PAF Mirage pilot pulling out of his base.
> 
> 
> View attachment 814516


I don't think even a pilot can turn his head 180 degrees and get this view unless he has some premium rear view mirrors


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## Windjammer

arjunk said:


> I don't think even a pilot can turn his head 180 degrees and get this view unless he has some premium rear view mirrors


Once a Gora Sahib said, what goes up always must come down.
The same pilot when he comes into land will enjoy a panoramic view of the same base.

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## mshan44



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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494630613436952579

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## GriffinsRule

What some determination can get you when backed in a corner.






Great interview for Mirage lovers.

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## Deltadart

GriffinsRule said:


> What some determination can get you when backed in a corner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great interview for Mirage lovers.


But, paf always wanted to get rid of their mirages, otherwise they would have been flying cheetah in paf colors.


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## araz

Deltadart said:


> But, paf always wanted to get rid of their mirages, otherwise they would have been flying cheetah in paf colors.


The mirage sounds like the PAF's equivalent of the A10. Unliked by the AF till it found a niche and then all of a sudden taken over for the niche role. I think it is ideal for the A2G role and will be used for it. As to Cheetah modification my own feeling is PAF assessed rightly that even developing it would not give it any meaningful role other than the one it is slotted into. Putting BVRs on it still means it will be very vulnerable in a modern war arena. If you look back in early 2000s with PAF still practicing for a WVR engagement, it just did not sit well with PAF strategy.
A

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## mshan44

Quite rare: a #Pakistan Air Force Mirage IIIEA ROSE I, wearing Indian Air Force roundels and markings during shooting of a film (Sherdil). #India’s Air Force operates the Mirage 2000, a similar looking aircraft. Via 
@TheNomadLad

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## Windjammer



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## khail007

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 814658



Beautiful picture, the only issue is that the aircraft PS into the picture, the real picture is:

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## Gripen9

khail007 said:


> Beautiful picture, the only issue is that the aircraft PS into the picture, the real picture is:
> 
> View attachment 830961


Derawar Fort?

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## khail007

Gripen9 said:


> Derawar Fort?



Bullseye

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## denel

araz said:


> The mirage sounds like the PAF's equivalent of the A10. Unliked by the AF till it found a niche and then all of a sudden taken over for the niche role. I think it is ideal for the A2G role and will be used for it. As to Cheetah modification my own feeling is PAF assessed rightly that even developing it would not give it any meaningful role other than the one it is slotted into. Putting BVRs on it still means it will be very vulnerable in a modern war arena. If you look back in early 2000s with PAF still practicing for a WVR engagement, it just did not sit well with PAF strategy.
> A


Actually i would disagree in a few points. Firstly not going the cheetah route exposed PAF for 2 decades of insecurity which could have been cut short. Additionally, there would have been a huge level of local knowledge, skill, alloyes, engineering not limited to just airframe capabilities developed to take it forward while enabling many further airforces who would have had this option to upgrade or older m3 could have been sold as a 'new' aircraft. Secondly, Cheetah represented a 4G aircraft; this would have given you HMS which has been a standard rapport for us for decades. Cheetah gave a significant improvement on range as well as payload capacity vs the M3/5. Further to your point this would have ensured Cheetah remained critical for the nuclear option as a payload carrier vs a lowest tier carrier with all the standard capabilities which a 4G has. Personally, i believe not following Cheetah route, it was a huge negative overall and the only rational i can understand is the unavailibility of 9K50C. If this option was not pursued, the 2nd best option of bringing in the F1 was also squandered.

My 2cents input.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Actually i would disagree in a few points. Firstly not going the cheetah route exposed PAF for 2 decades of insecurity which could have been cut short. Additionally, there would have been a huge level of local knowledge, skill, alloyes, engineering not limited to just airframe capabilities developed to take it forward while enabling many further airforces who would have had this option to upgrade or older m3 could have been sold as a 'new' aircraft. Secondly, Cheetah represented a 4G aircraft; this would have given you HMS which has been a standard rapport for us for decades. Cheetah gave a significant improvement on range as well as payload capacity vs the M3/5. Further to your point this would have ensured Cheetah remained critical for the nuclear option as a payload carrier vs a lowest tier carrier with all the standard capabilities which a 4G has. Personally, i believe not following Cheetah route, it was a huge negative overall and the only rational i can understand is the unavailibility of 9K50C. If this option was not pursued, the 2nd best option of bringing in the F1 was also squandered.
> 
> My 2cents input.


Great analysis. I wish we had a think tank of the caliber of RAND corporation in Pakistan to analyze such vital national security issues, and make recommendations to the government and the PAF, similar to the way USAF gets scrutinized by the think tanks and the elected officials in the US.
Currently there is no such mechanism in Pakistan to make recommendations, or question the decisions made by the PAF. Whatever, paf decides is taken as the final word without any outside input, which is deemed as inferior by the men in uniform anyway.
The way things are, the corrupt politicians, and their accomplices in the paf, showed criminal negligence in not seriously pursuing cheetah, F1, M2K etc. to the determent of the nation. Unfortunately, nothing has changed even now. It was always about kickbacks, and not about getting industrial know how to make our own planes, and become independent. Anybody questioning this set up is either a traitor, or a nobody to be questioning the professional know it alls.

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## araz

denel said:


> Actually i would disagree in a few points. Firstly not going the cheetah route exposed PAF for 2 decades of insecurity which could have been cut short. Additionally, there would have been a huge level of local knowledge, skill, alloyes, engineering not limited to just airframe capabilities developed to take it forward while enabling many further airforces who would have had this option to upgrade or older m3 could have been sold as a 'new' aircraft. Secondly, Cheetah represented a 4G aircraft; this would have given you HMS which has been a standard rapport for us for decades. Cheetah gave a significant improvement on range as well as payload capacity vs the M3/5. Further to your point this would have ensured Cheetah remained critical for the nuclear option as a payload carrier vs a lowest tier carrier with all the standard capabilities which a 4G has. Personally, i believe not following Cheetah route, it was a huge negative overall and the only rational i can understand is the unavailibility of 9K50C. If this option was not pursued, the 2nd best option of bringing in the F1 was also squandered.
> 
> My 2cents input.


Hi Denel.
As to the Cheetah upgrades, while I am merely an enthusiast, I do have a few observations.
My contention has always remained that the cheetah upgrade would not have sorted out the aerodynamic inefficiencies of the delta. In the subcontinent theatre without a BVR and effective HOBS, it would always have remained vulnerable as at the first turn it would have lost energy and succumbed to the enemy. There was no effective and available SA BVR or HOBS which would have utilized the full capabilities of the HMCS. However for other projects like the JFT, it would have come in handy.
I take your point on board about the other skills as well as alloys, but Pakistan did not have the basic infrastructure to avail from these metallic alloys technology (at least to the best of my knowledge). So as a cost vs benefit exercise it fails in my view. PAF does have a mafia (or gently putting it a thought process) and only now have they embraced the delta canard concept with the J10C ( I suspect the lack of availability of block 72s may have something to do with it) having previously stuck to the non delta setup. Setting up the Delta canard setup on older airframes would have been risky and cost prohibitive, and PAF out of sheer necessity remains frugal in spending money in risky projects. I do feel PAF should have gone the F1 route or M2K5 way in the mid 90s but it did not happen for various reasons. It is safe to say PAF wanted to replace the M3/5s with M2K5s. While this would have been amazing it did not happen.
Happy to listen to a counter post from you as I always learn from your posts.
Regards
A

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## denel

araz said:


> Hi Denel.
> As to the Cheetah upgrades, while I am merely an enthusiast, I do have a few observations.
> My contention has always remained that the cheetah upgrade would not have sorted out the aerodynamic inefficiencies of the delta. In the subcontinent theatre without a BVR and effective HOBS, it would always have remained vulnerable as at the first turn it would have lost energy and succumbed to the enemy. There was no effective and available SA BVR or HOBS which would have utilized the full capabilities of the HMCS. However for other projects like the JFT, it would have come in handy.
> I take your point on board about the other skills as well as alloys, but Pakistan did not have the basic infrastructure to avail from these metallic alloys technology (at least to the best of my knowledge). So as a cost vs benefit exercise it fails in my view. PAF does have a mafia (or gently putting it a thought process) and only now have they embraced the delta canard concept with the J10C ( I suspect the lack of availability of block 72s may have something to do with it) having previously stuck to the non delta setup. Setting up the Delta canard setup on older airframes would have been risky and cost prohibitive, and PAF out of sheer necessity remains frugal in spending money in risky projects. I do feel PAF should have gone the F1 route or M2K5 way in the mid 90s but it did not happen for various reasons. It is safe to say PAF wanted to replace the M3/5s with M2K5s. While this would have been amazing it did not happen.
> Happy to listen to a counter post from you as I always learn from your posts.
> Regards
> A


No friend; that is not true at all. Cheetah was designed for BVR engagement and HOBS (this was to have available with A-darter) with already a limited HOBS via U-Darter. BVR was already available as part of Cheetah as R-darter.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,




.,.,

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## air marshal



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer

Once upon Mirage-3 and 5 were as popular as the F-16s.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Windjammer

The Need For Speed. 
Mirages remain one of the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory.

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## Reichmarshal

Windjammer said:


> The Need For Speed.
> Mirages remain one of the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory.
> 
> View attachment 852914


On paper

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> The Need For Speed.
> Mirages remain one of the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory.
> 
> View attachment 852914



How fast can 30-40 year old airframes and engines reach the original paper performance specifications of factory fresh new builds? Everything mechanically degrades over time, airframes age, engines will degrade and limits are placed on what that plane is allowed to achieve etc.


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## Sinnerman108

Ali_Baba said:


> How fast can 30-40 year old airframes and engines reach the original paper performance specifications of factory fresh new builds? Everything mechanically degrades over time, airframes age, engines will degrade and limits are placed on what that plane is allowed to achieve etc.



Actually overtime things are improved and replaced also.

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## Windjammer

Ali_Baba said:


> How fast can 30-40 year old airframes and engines reach the original paper performance specifications of factory fresh new builds? Everything mechanically degrades over time, airframes age, engines will degrade and limits are placed on what that plane is allowed to achieve etc.


Well they performed as good as any front line fighter when they visited Indian Occupied Kashmir without benefit of a Visa.

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## MastanKhan

Ali_Baba said:


> How fast can 30-40 year old airframes and engines reach the original paper performance specifications of factory fresh new builds? Everything mechanically degrades over time, airframes age, engines will degrade and limits are placed on what that plane is allowed to achieve etc.



Hi.

Old aircraft are not like the village transport bus. If they fly---they are capable of doing the job they are sent to do.

The function of a fighter aircraft is different than that of a strike aircraft or a bomber aircraft.

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> Well they performed as good as any front line fighter when they visited Indian Occupied Kashmir without benefit of a Visa.



It took 2 Mirages ( 1 with SOW and 1 to target ), additional JF17s and F16s to protect them to deliver just 1 SOW.......just 1.... a Rafale can deliver 2 SOW ( SCALPS ) and is capable of defending itself on the way in and out ...

When they visited IOK - the flaws in the Mirages were also exposed - it is incapable of targetting itself or defending itself and in a high intensity war when using SOWs - the flaws of the Mirage were also exposed alongside its success..

It is time to retire these relics and move onto J17s/J10Cs who have better capabilities to deliver SOW and to be able to defend themselves while doing it..

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## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> It took 2 Mirages ( 1 with SOW and 1 to target ), additional JF17s and F16s to protect them to deliver just 1 SOW.......just 1.... a Rafale can deliver 2 SOW ( SCALPS ) and is capable of defending itself on the way in and out ...
> 
> When they visited IOK - the flaws in the Mirages were also exposed - it is incapable of targetting itself or defending itself and in a high intensity war when using SOWs - the flaws of the Mirage were also exposed alongside its success..
> 
> It is time to retire these relics and move onto J17s/J10Cs who have better capabilities to deliver SOW and to be able to defend themselves while doing it..


Only role mirages are fit to do is delivering RAADs/nuclear payload

Thats pretty much it..two squardons should suffice..rest should bw retired

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## Raja Porus

ziaulislam said:


> Only role mirages are fit to do is delivering RAADs/nuclear payload
> 
> Thats pretty much it..two squardons should suffice..rest should bw retired


What if you are able to carry out SEAD successfully(even in some sectors), then won't having more mirages as bomb trucks be favourable so as to not decrease the availability of the frontline fighters

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## Windjammer

Windjammer said:


> The Need For Speed.
> Mirages remain one of the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory.
> 
> View attachment 852914





Ali_Baba said:


> It took 2 Mirages ( 1 with SOW and 1 to target ), additional JF17s and F16s to protect them to deliver just 1 SOW.......just 1.... a Rafale can deliver 2 SOW ( SCALPS ) and is capable of defending itself on the way in and out ...
> 
> When they visited IOK - the flaws in the Mirages were also exposed - it is incapable of targetting itself or defending itself and in a high intensity war when using SOWs - the flaws of the Mirage were also exposed alongside its success..
> 
> It is time to retire these relics and move onto J17s/J10Cs who have better capabilities to deliver SOW and to be able to defend themselves while doing it..


Where did I say anything about the capability of Mirages. 
My post which you quoted only said about the aircraft's high speed.


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## Talon

Ali_Baba said:


> It took 2 Mirages ( 1 with SOW and 1 to target ), additional JF17s and F16s to protect them to deliver just 1 SOW.......just 1.... a Rafale can deliver 2 SOW ( SCALPS ) and is capable of defending itself on the way in and out ...
> 
> When they visited IOK - the flaws in the Mirages were also exposed - it is incapable of targetting itself or defending itself and in a high intensity war when using SOWs - the flaws of the Mirage were also exposed alongside its success..
> 
> It is time to retire these relics and move onto J17s/J10Cs who have better capabilities to deliver SOW and to be able to defend themselves while doing it..


It took 4* mirages actually and were protected by F-16s.

Now in modern combat every strike package is supported by escort/sweep/OCA-A/OCA-G/SEAD/DEAD etc, irrespective of the aircraft. Yes you could argue that Mirages needed extra number of aircraft to defend them even JF-17s carrying ReK were escorted by other JF-17s. Indian M2Ks were also escorted by Su-30s and same applies for Rafaels. So you cannot declare Mirages to be useless on basis of this argument.

You think PAF wasn't aware of flaws of the Mirage? You think they never practiced same mission before? Of course they did, the issue is PAF doesn't have any suitable replacement for Mirage yet and that's why we are using them but mind it they did their job in the hour of need.

There's only one case (in modern history) of a strike aircraft (F-18) going all offensive and targeting threat aircraft successfully otherwise strike aircrafts always stick to their primary role and are defended by support aircraft.So once again, be it J-10/JF-17/F-16 or Rafael .. none will solely perform all the roles in a mission.



Desert Fox 1 said:


> What if you are able to carry out SEAD successfully(even in some sectors), then won't having more mirages as bomb trucks be favourable so as to not decrease the availability of the frontline fighters


This statement is very vague. You didn't mention who will be performing SEAD. If Mirages, then I don't see them performing this role until last resort. We are yet to see any SEAD action from PAF but I expect JF-17s and MAYBE J-10s to perform this role (even though they have been acquired for different purpose).

If you meant any other aircraft other than Mirage, then what's Mirage got to do with the whole scenario? Except for it will be flying in the same package. Even if JF-17s are performing strike then they too will be needing SEAD aircraft as support. So availability of frontline fighters will remain same irrespective of which platform is performing the strike.

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## Yasser76

Ali_Baba said:


> It took 2 Mirages ( 1 with SOW and 1 to target ), additional JF17s and F16s to protect them to deliver just 1 SOW.......just 1.... a Rafale can deliver 2 SOW ( SCALPS ) and is capable of defending itself on the way in and out ...
> 
> When they visited IOK - the flaws in the Mirages were also exposed - it is incapable of targetting itself or defending itself and in a high intensity war when using SOWs - the flaws of the Mirage were also exposed alongside its success..
> 
> It is time to retire these relics and move onto J17s/J10Cs who have better capabilities to deliver SOW and to be able to defend themselves while doing it..



Sorry, this post shows an ignorance of air combat ops. In every country and scenario and war (NATO, Red Flag, Gulf War), missions are run with combined teams, strike aircraft do not "defend themselves", if PAF wanted to it could of sent in F-16s armed with AMRAAMs and Paveways.

The moment a strike aircraft has to fight off enemy planes it has failed in it's primary mission. The PAF strike was textbook, and that is not just my opinion but held by some comentators worldwide.

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## Super Falcon

I'm not impressed with these rose upgrades you might have increased capacity but most importantly it only can fire or drop few bombs limited cruise missile and air to air just magic and few old missiles


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## Raja Porus

Hodor said:


> This statement is very vague. You didn't mention who will be performing SEAD


My judgement is that most of the SEAD ops will not be performed by airforces on both the sides. And what weapons pak uses depends on the escalation ladder.
I believe that if India uses Brahmos and Nirbhay then Pak will also use its CMs. If India brings out its tactical BMs(which both sides know are for conventional warheads) then Pak will also respond with TBMs to hit Indian installations. The cost of using airforces will be too high for just SEAD.
Also the mirages have been grouped in 50 "_tactical" _ attack squadron. This clearly shows the role of mirages in the future apart from ALCM.

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## Talon

Desert Fox 1 said:


> My judgement is that most of the SEAD ops will not be performed by airforces on both the sides. And what weapons pak uses depends on the escalation ladder.
> I believe that if India uses Brahmos and Nirbhay then Pak will also use its CMs. If India brings out its tactical BMs(which both sides know are for conventional warheads) then Pak will also respond with TBMs to hit Indian installations. The cost of using airforces will be too high for just SEAD.
> Also the mirages have been grouped in 50 "_tactical" _ attack squadron. This clearly shows the role of mirages in the future apart from ALCM.


Can you please shed some light on what is your understanding of "SEAD"?


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## Trango Towers

Ali_Baba said:


> It took 2 Mirages ( 1 with SOW and 1 to target ), additional JF17s and F16s to protect them to deliver just 1 SOW.......just 1.... a Rafale can deliver 2 SOW ( SCALPS ) and is capable of defending itself on the way in and out ...
> 
> When they visited IOK - the flaws in the Mirages were also exposed - it is incapable of targetting itself or defending itself and in a high intensity war when using SOWs - the flaws of the Mirage were also exposed alongside its success..
> 
> It is time to retire these relics and move onto J17s/J10Cs who have better capabilities to deliver SOW and to be able to defend themselves while doing it..


Loooool so because the used a 2nd aircraft for targeting it cannot target itself or defend itself.
You should be promoted to running the PAF. Wah je wah. I thought the shareef family were the only family lacking in Pakistan. Clearly I am wrong

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## Raj-Hindustani

Trango Towers said:


> Loooool so because the used a 2nd aircraft for targeting it cannot target itself or defend itself.
> You should be promoted to running the PAF. Wah je wah. I thought the shareef family were the only family lacking in Pakistan. Clearly I am wrong



These aircraft are no survival chance in the 21st century. Dropping the bomb and running away in such a small incident of a few minutes at the border is fine but if you talk about the WAR situation then no chances

Look at the Russian Su 25 performance in Ukraine WAR... it is an easy target for *MANPADS.*

Example - A mig 21 shoot down a *Pakistan Navy Atlantic *in 1999 but that does not mean that it is the best aircraft...

Russia, US, China - All are working on next-generation fighter - bomber........ there should be a few solid reasons, right?

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## Primus

Raj-Hindustani said:


> These aircraft are no survival chance in the 21st century. Dropping the bomb and running away in such a small incident of a few minutes at the border is fine but if you talk about the WAR situation then no chances
> 
> Look at the Russian Su 25 performance in Ukraine WAR... it is an easy target for *MANPADS.*
> 
> Example - A mig 21 shoot down a *Pakistan Navy Atlantic *in 1999 but that does not mean that it is the best aircraft...
> 
> Russia, US, China - All are working on next-generation fighter - bomber........ there should be a few solid reasons, right?


In a full scale war, the gloves are off. If you think that such missions will be futile is a stupid thought. 

Su25 are prey to MANPADs but thats because they are slow moving attack jets which are not using stand off weaponry. Its a CAS jet. On top of that the damn thing is a beast just like the A10. Ive seen 2 vids of where a su25 shrugged off a manpad hit. 

Now the mirages which both Pakistan and India use for strikes are supersonic and use stand off weaponry. MANPADs will be ineffective for that. Medium and long range AD will be more effective but then again, it wont just be the mirages operating on their own.


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## Raj-Hindustani

Huffal said:


> In a full scale war, the gloves are off. If you think that such missions will be futile is a stupid thought.
> 
> Su25 are prey to MANPADs but thats because they are slow moving attack jets which are not using stand off weaponry. Its a CAS jet. On top of that the damn thing is a beast just like the A10. Ive seen 2 vids of where a su25 shrugged off a manpad hit.
> 
> Now the mirages which both Pakistan and India use for strikes are supersonic and use stand off weaponry. MANPADs will be ineffective for that. Medium and long range AD will be more effective but then again, it wont just be the mirages operating on their own.



Bhai - PAF mirage is not a true multi-role fighter.....she needs to cover by other fighter aircraft as you said as well... they are incapable to defend against any Fighter Aircraft.

So in 21 century, during the full flesh war..... They will always be vulnerable ..........

It can be compared with IAF jaguar but Not IAF Mirage 2000 -5.....

IAF Mirage 2000 is one generation ahead. IAF Mirage 2000 is a multirole fighter plane and during the WAR - they can also defend to themselves.

Pakistan should replace these mirage fighters immediately and IAF needs to replace IAF Jaguar immediately. The survival of these fighters during the full war is very limited.


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## Primus

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Bhai - PAF mirage is not a true multi-role fighter.....she needs to cover by other fighter aircraft as you said as well... they are incapable to defend against any Fighter Aircraft.
> 
> So in 21 century, during the full flesh war..... They will always be vulnerable ..........
> 
> It can be compared with IAF jaguar but Not IAF Mirage 2000 -5.....
> 
> IAF Mirage 2000 is one generation ahead. IAF Mirage 2000 is a multirole fighter plane and during the WAR - they can also defend to themselves.
> 
> Pakistan should replace these mirage fighters immediately and IAF needs to replace IAF Jaguar immediately. The survival of these fighters during the full war is very limited.


See @Hodor post regarding multi role fighter jets and strike packages.

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## Raj-Hindustani

Huffal said:


> See @Hodor post regarding multi role fighter jets and strike packages.



BHai -on paper IAF Jaguar is also having the good Strike packages.... but as I said, they are not good enough in 21 century.


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## Primus

Raj-Hindustani said:


> BHai -on paper IAF Jaguar is also having the good Strike packages.... but as I said, they are not good enough in 21 century.


What?

Okay lets back up. My point is talking about strike packages, stand off weaponry and the survivability of said fighter jets in a war. Your point is saying that such strikes are futile due to modern AD. 

Im saying modern day SOW have changed how said air craft will operate and also the other force multipliers that will be used during the attack. 

What is your point?


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## Sinnerman108

ziaulislam said:


> Only role mirages are fit to do is delivering RAADs/nuclear payload
> 
> Thats pretty much it..two squardons should suffice..rest should bw retired



Look at the Mirage's design,
It is designed to be fast, and carry as big a load as possible. 
Which implies, 
It will get in air fast, it will intrude enemy air space and deliver the payload. 

Apart from that, other planes can do the job much better.

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## Trango Towers

Raj-Hindustani said:


> These aircraft are no survival chance in the 21st century. Dropping the bomb and running away in such a small incident of a few minutes at the border is fine but if you talk about the WAR situation then no chances
> 
> Look at the Russian Su 25 performance in Ukraine WAR... it is an easy target for *MANPADS.*
> 
> Example - A mig 21 shoot down a *Pakistan Navy Atlantic *in 1999 but that does not mean that it is the best aircraft...
> 
> Russia, US, China - All are working on next-generation fighter - bomber........ there should be a few solid reasons, right?


Looool then come to Pakistan and take them on. Its an open door.

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## Raj-Hindustani

Huffal said:


> What?
> 
> Okay lets back up. My point is talking about strike packages, stand off weaponry and the survivability of said fighter jets in a war. Your point is saying that such strikes are futile due to modern AD.
> 
> Im saying modern day SOW have changed how said air craft will operate and also the other force multipliers that will be used during the attack.
> 
> What is your point?



I want to look at a bigger perspective & Flush flesh war...

I would give the example of 1965, India was having technologically outdated *Vampire Mk 52 fighter-bombers. *Yes, they were able to drop the bombs in Pakistan during the raids but they were helpless against the latest PAF fighters. They were easy targets for PAF fighters..

It is the same case with the IAF Jaguar and PAF Mirage fighters.... They are equipped with max 30 KM range AA missiles.... MAX 2 missiles.. They are also outdated to protect Themselves even from the ground base Air defense missiles.

Now,

Looking at Super powers - USA/Russia, they definitely need the dedicated bombers fighters because they would have the complete stike package with the other Aircarfts.

But,
In countries like INdia & Pakistan, it would not be possible... as I said, dropping the bombs at the border and running away is fine but raids inside i.e 100, 400, 800 Kms ....... survival of these aircraft would be very difficult.

So, you need a multirole fighter plane like J10, Mirage 2000 and Rafale, that can drop the bombs on target and can deal with the hostile challenges.

To me -IAF jaguar and PAF Mirage are outdated a long ago.

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## PanzerKiel

Hodor said:


> Can you please shed some light on what is your understanding of "SEAD"?

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## Talon

Trango Towers said:


> Loooool so because the used a 2nd aircraft for targeting it cannot target itself or defend itself.
> You should be promoted to running the PAF. Wah je wah. I thought the shareef family were the only family lacking in Pakistan. Clearly I am wrong


It would be better if you avoid political references and instead of making fun of someone's pov, try coming up with logical explanations..cheers!



Raj-Hindustani said:


> BHai -on paper IAF Jaguar is also having the good Strike packages.... but as I said, they are not good enough in 21 century.


But but .. PAF Mirage's capabilities aren't just on paper rather they should their might in Swift Retort (they did their job successfully, no reference of war vs battle needed).

Mirage might not be multi-role but PAF is .. so rest of the fleet compliments where Mirages lack.

Coordination matters as much as capabilities, otherwise IAF had been successful in Balakot strikes.


Raj-Hindustani said:


> In countries like INdia & Pakistan, it would not be possible... as I said, dropping the bombs at the border and running away is fine but raids inside i.e 100, 400, 800 Kms ....... survival of these aircraft would be very difficult.
> 
> So, you need a multirole fighter plane like J10, Mirage 2000 and Rafale, that can drop the bombs on target and can deal with the hostile challenges.
> 
> To me -IAF jaguar and PAF Mirage are outdated a long ago.


Oh it won't come to deep strikes .. even just after one strike from PAF almost ended up India sending it's missiles in Pakistan. So don't worry about Deep Strikes because either side will launch Ballistic or Cruise missiles within early hours.

Modern flight packages aren't as simple as 4 ship Rafael flight carrying out all tasks such as AA/AG/SEAD/EW. I have tried to explained this in detail on previous page please refer to that. Post #4976



PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 853835

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## Ali_Baba

Trango Towers said:


> Loooool so because the used a 2nd aircraft for targeting it cannot target itself or defend itself.
> You should be promoted to running the PAF. Wah je wah. I thought the shareef family were the only family lacking in Pakistan. Clearly I am wrong



You obviously have missed the point entirely ...

I will repeat again .. It took 4 Mirage pilots/navigators across 2 Mirage V’s to deliver *1 SOW.. just 1.*..

A single typhoon/rafale/f16 jet with *1 pilot* can deliver 2 SOW/Cruise missiles and still carry with them Jammers, BVRs missiles to help complete the mission. It would take PAF *4 Mirage V's jets* to achieve the same payload and with a total of *8 Pilots/navigators* for those 4 Jets. And you think that is efficient deployment of airpower and pilots in 2022 ? Given how valuable pilots/navigators are - is that the most efficient utiisation of resources ?

Again - So - 1 IAF Rafale pilot can deliver as much destructive power as 4 Mirage Vs of the PAF with 8 pilots/navigators ....

How many missions does PAF need to generate to keep pace with aircraft like the Rafale, Typhoon, F16s in the deployment of SOWs or quite frankly anything else in a war ? The Mirages right now dont deliver enough bang for the buck when you consider how many trained pilots/navigators the platform requires to get a mission completed compared to more modern aircraft that can carry larger payloads and have more defensive capabilities built into them - that is why it is past its sell by date if you need to fight a high intensity war...

Why is this so difficult for people to understand ? Why do you struggle to understand ?


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## Abid123

Retire these 50 year old junk planes


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## Signalian

Hodor said:


> Can you please shed some light on what is your understanding of "SEAD"?


Blind them, take out radars.

DEAD - kill the SAM battery

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## Raj-Hindustani

Hodor said:


> It would be better if you avoid political references and instead of making fun of someone's pov, try coming up with logical explanations..cheers!
> 
> 
> But but .. PAF Mirage's capabilities aren't just on paper rather they should their might in Swift Retort (they did their job successfully, no reference of war vs battle needed).
> 
> Mirage might not be multi-role but PAF is .. so rest of the fleet compliments where Mirages lack.
> 
> Coordination matters as much as capabilities, otherwise IAF had been successful in Balakot strikes.
> 
> Oh it won't come to deep strikes .. even just after one strike from PAF almost ended up India sending it's missiles in Pakistan. So don't worry about Deep Strikes because either side will launch Ballistic or Cruise missiles within early hours.
> 
> Modern flight packages aren't as simple as 4 ship Rafael flight carrying out all tasks such as AA/AG/SEAD/EW. I have tried to explained this in detail on previous page please refer to that. Post #4976



Sir, Jaguar fighter plane is more battle proven plane if I look at the history.

But as I said, dropping rhe bombs at borders and deep stike inside.... Both are different..

Many PAF mirage and IAF Jaguar would be shoot down if they will try to go deep stike in actual war....,.,............. Bomber/ attack fighter concept is very old with the combination of air superiority fighters... But it would not work for india and Pakistan.

If I am general of air force then I would prefer to send the 10 multirole fighter for deep stike..... Rather than, 10 Jaguar/ PAF mirage with 5 or 10 other air superiority aircrafts.

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## GriffinsRule

Ali_Baba said:


> You obviously have missed the point entirely ...
> 
> I will repeat again .. It took 4 Mirage pilots/navigators across 2 Mirage V’s to deliver *1 SOW.. just 1.*..
> 
> A single typhoon/rafale/f16 jet with *1 pilot* can deliver 2 SOW/Cruise missiles and still carry with them Jammers, BVRs missiles to help complete the mission. It would take PAF *4 Mirage V's jets* to achieve the same payload and with a total of *8 Pilots/navigators* for those 4 Jets. And you think that is efficient deployment of airpower and pilots in 2022 ? Given how valuable pilots/navigators are - is that the most efficient utiisation of resources ?
> 
> Again - So - 1 IAF Rafale pilot can deliver as much destructive power as 4 Mirage Vs of the PAF with 8 pilots/navigators ....
> 
> How many missions does PAF need to generate to keep pace with aircraft like the Rafale, Typhoon, F16s in the deployment of SOWs or quite frankly anything else in a war ? The Mirages right now dont deliver enough bang for the buck when you consider how many trained pilots/navigators the platform requires to get a mission completed compared to more modern aircraft that can carry larger payloads and have more defensive capabilities built into them - that is why it is past its sell by date if you need to fight a high intensity war...
> 
> Why is this so difficult for people to understand ? Why do you struggle to understand ?


3 pilots not 4, just to be accurate. However, your concern while valid, the example is not on a wider scale. Not all Mirage missions will employ precession weapons and not other aircraft in the PAF inventory can carry as many cluster munitions as a Mirage in a single sortie.
If the Russian war is any example, you will need wide scale and large area bombing missions as well to stop infantry and armored vehicle movement.



Raj-Hindustani said:


> Sir, Jaguar fighter plane is more battle proven plane if I look at the history.
> 
> But as I said, dropping rhe bombs at borders and deep stike inside.... Both are different..
> 
> Many PAF mirage and IAF Jaguar would be shoot down if they will try to go deep stike in actual war....,.,............. Bomber/ attack fighter concept is very old with the combination of air superiority fighters... But it would not work for india and Pakistan.
> 
> If I am general of air force then I would prefer to send the 10 multiple role fighter for deep stike..... Rather than, 10 Jaguar/ PAF mirage with 5 or 10 other air superiority aircrafts.


Putting aside deep strike, what about shallow strikes on troop formations right at the border or even inside your own territory?

Also keep in mind the bhikari status of the country when dreaming of an all modern air force.

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## Raj-Hindustani

GriffinsRule said:


> Putting aside deep strike, what about shallow strikes on troop formations right at the border or even inside your own territory?
> 
> Also keep in mind the bhikari status of the country when dreaming of an all modern air force.



Yes I agreed.... This is the reason our countries are still flying such legendary aircrafts i. e mig 21, J 7, Jaguar, mirage 3...... Etc


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## Talon

I know what SEAD is bhai g .. I was asking about his understanding because of his comments.


Signalian said:


> Blind them, take out radars.
> 
> DEAD - kill the SAM battery

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## Talon

Trango Towers said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> It didn't take 4....that's what paf decided to do for this mission dumbo.
> 
> Let me give you an example that your single cell brain can understand.
> Let's say you father takes you to your school in his car which in only 400m from your home. You get in the car and he drops you off. I say see he is handicapped and not able to walk to school. Did u get that????? Or you need further explanation...its called a package for a reason


Post reported for personal and insulting comment towards the other member.

I have requested you many times to stop this attitude but you seem to give no heed.



Raj-Hindustani said:


> Sir, Jaguar fighter plane is more battle proven plane if I look at the history.
> 
> But as I said, dropping rhe bombs at borders and deep stike inside.... Both are different..
> 
> Many PAF mirage and IAF Jaguar would be shoot down if they will try to go deep stike in actual war....,.,............. Bomber/ attack fighter concept is very old with the combination of air superiority fighters... But it would not work for india and Pakistan.
> 
> If I am general of air force then I would prefer to send the 10 multirole fighter for deep stike..... Rather than, 10 Jaguar/ PAF mirage with 5 or 10 other air superiority aircrafts.


We aren't talking about history rather recent events. When was the last time Jaguar participated against Pakistan?

As for deep strike, I have already answered. 

Our air forces cannot replace all aircrafts with modern inventory so they have to make the best out of available resources.

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## Talon

Trango Towers said:


> Who are you?? Reported looool OK. My life has ended now. Ja dafa ho and there is nothing wrong with the post


@The Eagle @jaibi

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## Metal 0-1

Trango Towers said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> It didn't take 4....that's what paf decided to do for this mission dumbo.
> 
> Let me give you an example that your single cell brain can understand.
> Let's say you father takes you to your school in his car which in only 400m from your home. You get in the car and he drops you off. I say see he is handicapped and not able to walk to school. Did u get that????? Or you need further explanation...its called a package for a reason


If you don't have anything not productive enough, please refrain from dropping this low.

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## hassan1



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## denel

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Sir, Jaguar fighter plane is more battle proven plane if I look at the history.
> 
> But as I said, dropping rhe bombs at borders and deep stike inside.... Both are different..
> 
> Many PAF mirage and IAF Jaguar would be shoot down if they will try to go deep stike in actual war....,.,............. Bomber/ attack fighter concept is very old with the combination of air superiority fighters... But it would not work for india and Pakistan.
> 
> If I am general of air force then I would prefer to send the 10 multirole fighter for deep stike..... Rather than, 10 Jaguar/ PAF mirage with 5 or 10 other air superiority aircrafts.


Actually i would tend to agree and disagree. For tactical strikes at very low levels - Jaguar is the best around for its class. It is also one of the very reasons why it has been kept and upgraded over and over. Now, that said, the battlefield has changed so much, unless it is a surgical strike without much EW or AAMs, these are sitting ducks but still they can get the job done especially with more modern stand off weapons.

Similarly M3/M5 with relevant upgrades have found their niche for the time being until they get replaced. The beauty about both the Jags/Ms is their versatilty that comes with the 'open' book ability to modify as needed without much of hangovers. Alas .... though i do wish these had been upgraded to Cheetah C/Ds - then it was a totally different story.

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## Deltadart

denel said:


> Similarly M3/M5 with relevant upgrades have found their niche for the time being until they get replaced. The beauty about both the Jags/Ms is their versatilty that comes with the 'open' book ability to modify as needed without much of hangovers. Alas .... though i do wish these had been upgraded to Cheetah C/Ds - then it was a totally different story.


Bro. Something we have discussed to death here, but unfortunately, those at the helm in the paf at the time arrogantly decided not to pursue this option because in their dreams paf was going to be flooded with F16s.......and we know how that turned out.

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## denel

Deltadart said:


> Bro. Something we have discussed to death here, but unfortunately, those at the helm in the paf at the time arrogantly decided not to pursue this option because in their dreams paf was going to be flooded with F16s.......and we know how that turned out.


bro.... always a pleasure to reconnect. hope you are well.

absolutely my friend... people are waking up now to what we had been saying and seeing all along.


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## Deltadart

denel said:


> bro.... always a pleasure to reconnect. hope you are well.
> 
> absolutely my friend... people are waking up now to what we had been saying and seeing all along.


Same here. All is well, hope the same for you. 
Indeed the missed opportunity with cheetah upgrades, and the technical know how, that went with it, has been haunting the paf till this day. We are still using Ms but without the massive cheetah improvements.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

PAF Mirages executing a Bomb Burst.

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## Ice-Le0

Been wondering what exact weapons the Mirages IIIs and Vs can be outfitted with.

I have seen the IIIs fitted with what look to be Matra R.530s, AIM-9Ls, AIM-9P4s, and odd looking drop tanks which can mount 4 bombs, I don't know what size those bombs are, and seems to have some sort of rocket launcher in its nose.
The Mirage Vs meanwhile I have seen to only mount AIM-9P4s or P3s, Hijara AT Cluster Bombs, various dumb bombs of various size, and thats about it.

If anyone could give me a detailed list and associated images of any weapons I have missed, please feel free to


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## White privilege

PanzerKiel said:


> There is a special need which has freshly come up. Lets wait for another 27 Feb.





PanzerKiel said:


> They have now been dedicated for CAP / fighter sweeps / OCAOs.
> 
> 
> Fighter sweeps / CAPs / OCAOs.


So one silver bullet for the _daddy vampire?? _🤔

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## Signalian

Abid123 said:


> Retire these 50 year old junk planes


Droning of mirages to save pilot’s lives. Remotely controlled mirages.

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## Raider 21

PanzerKiel said:


> 7 mirage squadrons
> 7 squadron ROSE 1
> CCS Mirage squadron ROSE 1
> 8 squadron NON ROSE
> 15 squadron (now 50 squadron as 15 cobras will be J10 now) NON ROSE
> 22 squadron NON ROSE
> 25 squadron ROSE 2
> 27 squadron ROSE 3
> 
> 
> There is a special need which has freshly come up. Lets wait for another 27 Feb.


And pray it is to prevent a 26th Feb initially. As one PAF Mirage driver remarked "we may have pulled off 27th Feb but we proved to be a reactionary force...."

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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> Droning of mirages to save pilot’s lives. Remotely controlled mirages.


No pls don't

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## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> No pls don't


Replace their capabilities through drones ?

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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> Replace their capabilities through drones ?


Yes much cheaper option as compared to maintain their engines and old airframes don't forget the cost of program to convert them into drones.





I'll say this, convert real outdated f-7s into target drones.

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## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> Yes much cheaper option as compared to maintain their engines and old airframes don't forget the cost of program to convert them into drones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll say this, convert real outdated f-7s into target drones.


The maneuverability and ordinance carrying capacity of drones is limited.

An aircraft converted to drone can show different results


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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> The maneuverability and ordinance carrying capacity of drones is limited.
> 
> An aircraft converted to drone can show different results


I highly doubt an operator will be going mach 1+ at low level remotely only relying on a camera. 


Pilot can see much more than a nose mounted flir.

But it will be interesting nonetheless

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## air marshal



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## MastanKhan

Metal 0-1 said:


> I highly doubt an operator will be going mach 1+ at low level remotely only relying on a camera.
> 
> 
> Pilot can see much more than a nose mounted flir.
> 
> But it will be interesting nonetheless



Hi,

Have you not heard of a " Terrain following radar "?

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## Sinnerman108

Signalian said:


> The maneuverability and ordinance carrying capacity of drones is limited.
> 
> An aircraft converted to drone can show different results



True, however a true drone needs over the horizon com link.
PAF has a long way to go, before we get that.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Flares by Zarrars


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Metal 0-1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Have you not heard of a " Terrain following radar "?


So now you want another upgrade


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## MastanKhan

Metal 0-1 said:


> So now you want another upgrade


Hi,

It already has terrain following capability.

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558703765989072896

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## Ali_Baba

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558703765989072896



The Jammer is new(well first picture of it) - i am certain we have not had a picture of a Mirage with a Jammer before.

Is it the same as the JF17 version, Turkish, or Pakistan made new ????


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## HRK

Ali_Baba said:


> The Jammer is new(well first picture of it) - i am certain we have not had a picture of a Mirage with a Jammer before.
> 
> Is it the same as the JF17 version, Turkish, or Pakistan made new ????


it is a Data/Guidance pod for H-2 & H-4

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Action-packed flight line, with Delta pilots & crews standing ready for a demanding mission.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567443475234160640

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## Inception-06

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558703765989072896



It’s name is HIJRA !

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## AMG_12

Inception-06 said:


> It’s name is HIJRA !


I think it's "Hijara"

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## White privilege

Raider 21 said:


> And pray it is to prevent a 26th Feb initially. As one PAF Mirage driver remarked "we may have pulled off 27th Feb but we proved to be a reactionary force...."


Doesn't _trying to prevent a *non-attack *like 26th Feb _carries the risk of _breaking the bank_?? Is it wise to burn fuel in a defensive posture for days, just because Modi had a bad dream?? Our response to such belligerence should be simple. We wont humor the Indians and exhaust our resources anticipating an attack, but if it does materialize, we will take an eye and two arms in exchange.

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## Sifar zero

So which airplanes are going to replace these beasts??
Plus what is the need for a Non ROSE Mirage squadron aren't they outdated??


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF Mirage IIIDP (67-302) was acquired under the BlueFlash-I program and has gone through Rose I Upgradation.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirage IIIDP from No. 7 TA Squadron Bandits takes off while Saab 2000 from No. 21 ATS Squadron Burraqs waits for it's turn.
This Mirage airframe, 67-301, is oldest one in PAF service.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=805089470703056

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590245077464776704

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## Talon

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Action-packed flight line, with Delta pilots & crews standing ready for a demanding mission.
> View attachment 871574


This was actually taken right after Op Swift Retort.

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## Windjammer

Geared Up For SOW Strike.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirage-IIIDF from No.22 Sqn "Ghazis" taxing out of its hardened pen for a training mission.
Customized for special roles, these Mirages due to specific modifications are well integrated into the modern operational construct of PAF.

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## Trango Towers

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Mirage-IIIDF from No.22 Sqn "Ghazis" taxing out of its hardened pen for a training mission.
> Customized for special roles, these Mirages due to specific modifications are well integrated into the modern operational construct of PAF.
> View attachment 902931


Still a nightmare for its adversaries

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## Windjammer

Two former PAF Air chiefs, CAS Nur Khan and Hakimullaha during a sortie on the first batch of Mirages recieved by PAF.

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## Deltadart

Windjammer said:


> Two former PAF Air chiefs, CAS Nur Khan and Hakimullaha during a sortie on the first batch of Mirages recieved by PAF.
> 
> View attachment 905231


Top notch pilots and chiefs.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirage-3dp landing on motorway during high mark exercise

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

“A warrior with a cause is the most dangerous soldier of all”
Legendary Mirage from No.22 OCU "Ghazi" Squadron. The squadron apart from its traditional role of training delta riders is also tasked with tactical standoff strike missions with special weapons.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Night Strike Eagles

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

May God have mercy on our enemies, because we won't. It's incoming, we shall strike hard & deep behind the enemy lines.

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## flameboard

If anything Pakistan show be investing in a replacement aircraft rather than upgrading old aircraft.

J-10 seems like it can do more than just replace the mirage. I don’t know how much maintenance costs are though for either. Alternative is making a similar copy. Pakistan can probably do that pretty easily. Dunno about costs of starting such a project


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## Trango Towers

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> May God have mercy on our enemies, because we won't. It's incoming, we shall strike hard & deep behind the enemy lines.


If only our lions were lead by a lions and not vermin

In the words of Alexander the Great.
"I WOULD RATHER HAVE AN A4MY OF SHEEP LEAD BY A LION THAN AN ARMY OF LIONS LEAD BY A SHEEP". 

We feb26 2019 incident and Imran Khan

We had kargil and Nawaz Shareef.

Now we have shabaaz shareef.

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## GriffinsRule

flameboard said:


> If anything Pakistan show be investing in a replacement aircraft rather than upgrading old aircraft.
> 
> J-10 seems like it can do more than just replace the mirage. I don’t know how much maintenance costs are though for either. Alternative is making a similar copy. Pakistan can probably do that pretty easily. Dunno about costs of starting such a project


Pakistan cant even make a copy of the 50 year old Cobra.


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## Trango Towers

GriffinsRule said:


> Pakistan cant even make a copy of the 50 year old Cobra.


They can just didn't try


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## flameboard

GriffinsRule said:


> Pakistan cant even make a copy of the 50 year old Cobra.


And yet they have the JF-17 project. What’s different about the mirage is that it’s an old design that Pakistan knows how to tear down to its tiniest component and build back up, so it would be easier. I just learned that J-10 is taking on the Mirage camo so that means Mirage is being replaced by J-10


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## GriffinsRule

Trango Towers said:


> They can just didn't try


So they fought an insurgency without being able to provide timely air over leading to thousands of soldiers deaths out of laziness for over a decade? Clearly when Zulus and T129s were dead, they couldn't care less to provide a local more up-to-date solution or heck even upgrade the existing inventory. 
I actually believe they can't produce anything that is not literally a copy. And of course no engine is a separate issue.



flameboard said:


> And yet they have the JF-17 project. What’s different about the mirage is that it’s an old design that Pakistan knows how to tear down to its tiniest component and build back up, so it would be easier. I just learned that J-10 is taking on the Mirage camo so that means Mirage is being replaced by J-10


They have Chinese handholding and teaching them to build portion of it only. Akin to teaching anyone to hammer nails into a floorboard but doesn't make them architects


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## Trango Towers

GriffinsRule said:


> So they fought an insurgency without being able to provide timely air over leading to thousands of soldiers deaths out of laziness for over a decade? Clearly when Zulus and T129s were dead, they couldn't care less to provide a local more up-to-date solution or heck even upgrade the existing inventory.
> I actually believe they can't produce anything that is not literally a copy. And of course no engine is a separate issue.
> 
> 
> They have Chinese handholding and teaching them to build portion of it only. Akin to teaching anyone to hammer nails into a floorboard but doesn't make them architects


OK zulus are American and no one is allowed to touch them without the masters permission just like the f16. Yes Pakistani people generally and inherently lazy. They will never sit down look at their situation analyse and then look for a solution. Bhai just look at your family. You will find such people in abundance. As a nation we are reactive. Not proactive. We would rather buy than build. These are facts

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## GriffinsRule

Trango Towers said:


> OK zulus are American and no one is allowed to touch them without the masters permission just like the f16. Yes Pakistani people generally and inherently lazy. They will never sit down look at their situation analyse and then look for a solution. Bhai just look at your family. You will find such people in abundance. As a nation we are reactive. Not proactive. We would rather buy than build. These are facts


Which is why when I see a new post from someone who wants Pakistan to build a mini-this, semi-stealth that every other week, I can just shake my head.

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## Windjammer



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## jupiter2007

Army didn’t allow private sector to grow and all the smart people decided to go overseas. 
Brain is gone, only Pinky remain in Pakistan.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


>


Where did you find this picture. 
@FOOLS_NIGHTMARE


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Windjammer said:


> Where did you find this picture.
> @FOOLS_NIGHTMARE


From here my friend.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609231502008532992


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## Windjammer

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> From here my friend.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609231502008532992


It's a splendid capture but the writing has spoilt the real impression of the image.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Goodbye Delta Haiders
Thank you for your service

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A pair of Mirages awaits Air to Air Refuelling from an IL78 aircraft during exercise training mission.

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## Gripen9

Windjammer said:


> It's a splendid capture but the writing has spoilt the real impression of the image.
> 
> View attachment 909040


Interesting..
it shows LGBs in the arsenal. I have never seen Mirages armed with Paveways. Curious what pod they use for target acquisition and designation. Most probably buddy lasing from F-16s.

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## GriffinsRule

Gripen9 said:


> Interesting..
> it shows LGBs in the arsenal. I have never seen Mirages armed with Paveways. Curious what pod they use for target acquisition and designation. Most probably buddy lasing from F-16s.


Or lasing from ground troops

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## Windjammer

Gripen9 said:


> Interesting..
> it shows LGBs in the arsenal. I have never seen Mirages armed with Paveways. Curious what pod they use for target acquisition and designation. Most probably buddy lasing from F-16s.


The ROSE upgraded Mirage-V, I believe have an integrated FLIR under the cockpit with which they can light up the targets.

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## ghazi52

Moving out....

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## Deltadart

ghazi52 said:


> Moving out....


Will these planes be transferred to another unit? Considering they had a very specialized role, so will they continue in the same role in a newer unit?

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## CLUMSY

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Goodbye Delta Haiders
> Thank you for your service


My dad was a no.8 pilot for some time, flew the good ol mirage

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## Gripen9

Deltadart said:


> Will these planes be transferred to another unit? Considering they had a very specialized role, so will they continue in the same role in a newer unit?


8 Sqn had the last of non ROSE updated Mirage VPA3 (Agave/Exocet). They had given up their anti ship role a few years back and were now just stand-off delivery with REKs. These will most probably be mothballed for spares.



Windjammer said:


> The ROSE upgraded Mirage-V, I believe have an integrated FLIR under the cockpit with which they can light up the targets.
> View attachment 909450


I don’t believe the FLIR (forward looking infrared) can “lase” the target. It can help in target acquisition plus no off boresight view in the current configuration.
I maybe wrong on this.

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## Metal 0-1

Gripen9 said:


> I don’t believe the FLIR (forward looking infrared) can “lase” the target. It can help in target acquisition plus no off boresight view in the current configuration.


Yessir


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## Imran Khan

ghazi52 said:


> Moving out....


مولانا کی یونیفارم کدھر ہے ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

"The best pilots fly more than the others; that's why they're the best." - Chuck Yeager 
A Jubilant and Proud Delta Rider!

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Ex Libyan Mirage VDD

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Gripen9

RAAF Mirage IIIOs being inspected in storage prior to being shipped to Pakistan.

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## Ali_Baba

Gripen9 said:


> RAAF Mirage IIIOs being inspected in storage prior to being shipped to Pakistan.




PAF unfortunately did not also get the "Australian developed" underbelly centre-line bomb racks with them ... they would have been a nice capability upgrade.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Bandits' bird clicked right after rotation at full AB. Ex RAAF Mirage IIIEA ROSE I from No 7 Tactical Attack Squadron, aircraft is heading off for ground attack training mission and is equipped with training bombs on Alkan 9010 pylons.

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## Corax

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


>



Interesting photo, very rare to see the PAF mirages using the two rear fuselage hardpoints. Any more photos like this?

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## syed_yusuf

Corax said:


> Interesting photo, very rare to see the PAF mirages using the two rear fuselage hardpoints. Any more photos like this?


can these HP be used for jamming pods or ASELPOD?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A Pakistan Naval Air Arm's Mirage V with blue markings (used primarily for reconnaissance) sits on the flight line while a Pakistan Air Force's F-16D taxies out in the background.

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## ghazi52

,.,.
Bandits Mirage IIIEA ROSE I wearing Golden Jubilee tail art. 
This particular aircraft (Ex Aussie 90-586) was used as launch platform for first Ra'ad ALCM test few years back. 
By Uzair Aslam

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## Clairvoyant

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> A Pakistan Naval Air Arm's Mirage V with blue markings (used primarily for reconnaissance) sits on the flight line while a Pakistan Air Force's F-16D taxies out in the background.



Before copy pasting everything posted by armchair analysts on Twitter,kindly do a bit of research.

This is an Ex-Libyan Mirage VDR and the blue markings have got nothing to do with it being a reconnaissance Mirage. Just like all the other Mirage V's in Paf,it's having the standard two tone paint scheme.

Also the reconnaissance role has now been taken over by DB.110 equipped F.16's.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Another gem found by 
@Shehrya82302942
PAF Mirage IIIRP from No. 5 Sqn #Falcons equipped with two RPK-10 supersonic drop tanks which are in turn armed with what seem to be Mk-117 bombs (4 on each tank). 67-201 was PAF's first Mirage IIIRP inducted in 1968 and saw action in 1971.

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## Gripen9

Ali_Baba said:


> PAF unfortunately did not also get the "Australian developed" underbelly centre-line bomb racks with them ... they would have been a nice capability upgrade.


Any info on these Aussie bomb racks?
Thx


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Mirage IIIEA PAF serial:90-562 Ex Australian RAAF A3-62 Delivered to Pakistan Air Force 11/90. ROSE 1 upgrade Combat Commanders School (CCS) Delivered to RAAF in 1967 . Finished RAAF Service with 3414 hours on airframe. Storage 27/06/88 at Woomera, Delivered to PAF in Nov,1990.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
"FAREWELL HAIDERS"
"*FAREWELL MIRAGE V PA2/3*"

No.8 Tactical Attack Sqn of PAF known as "Haiders" has been number plated by AHQ.
Number-plating is an official process that involves keeping a unit alive on paper, while posting all its men out to other units. The unit may be resurrected at a later date, with new aircraft.
The unit had rich legacy of wartime achievements and is one of the most decorated Sqn of PAF. It operated versions of Mirage-V modified for Maritime Ops & integrated with famous Exocet Missile.
I had an amazing time spent with DELTAS OF HAIDERS, already missing them. Best of luck to all the Haiders Personnel for their new role in PAF.
اِک اور ضربِ حیدری​
*Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography*​

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## ghazi52

.,.,
1967 Factory fresh PAF Mirage IIIEP being pulled out for flight testing; phased out in 2010 replaced by F-16 Blk 52+.....

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## Path-Finder

can these Mirages be used as a bomb truck and as a BVR truck? they are still a able to fly so why not put them to use where they can deliver.

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## Waiting

We may need these in the month of February march.... who knows.


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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> 1967 Factory fresh PAF Mirage IIIEP being pulled out for flight testing; phased out in 2010 replaced by F-16 Blk 52+.....



Not factory fresh but fresh after an overhaul at PAC, at the time with No.5 Sqn. Better image here.

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## ghazi52

.,..,




GriffinsRule said:


> Not factory fresh but fresh after an overhaul at PAC, at the time with No.5 Sqn. Better image here.
> 
> View attachment 910614


Yes, Mirage Rebuild Factory, PAC Kamra.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,
Mirage IIIEL 22 OCU Sqn. "Ghazis" @ PAF Masroor..


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Clairvoyant said:


> This is an Ex-Libyan Mirage VDR


True, the Twitter handler has been corrected. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612155631594520576


----------

