# A NEW AIRCRAFT FOR PAF



## SSGcommandoPAK

*The PAF has around 920 -950 aircafts in its fleet ...........

PAFs current and new acquisitions*
*Jets *
60 - JF-17s ( 90 on order )
80 - F-16s (8 new F-16s on order)
75 - Mirage 3 /////////////////////
82 - Mirage 5 /////////////////////
185 - F-7s / F-7p / F-7pg


*Planes the PAF is interested in 
Su-35s 
j-10s
yak-130*

*Trainer aircraft *

150 - Super Mushak (basic trainer)
60 - K-8 (intermediate trainer ) - ( 20 on order )
65 - T-37 (intermediate Trainer) - (34 gifted by Turkey this year)

*Transport aircraft*
USSR Antonov An-26 - 1

USA Lockheed C-130 Hercules - 18

Harbin y-12 - 2

Saab 2000 - 1

USSR Ilyushin Il-78 - 4
Il-78MK

Pakistan has 10 more transport aircrafts which i have not mentioned


*Helicopters *
Mi-17 - 80
Aloutte - 95
Cobra gunships - 50
Z-10 gunships - 3 ( more on order )
Vipers ( 15 on order )
Mi-35 ( 12 on order )

Pakistan has around 50 more helis which i have not mentioned ....

* Special Mission Aircraft *
Dassult falcon - 3
Saab 2000 Ereiye - 4 (AWACS )
Shaanxi ZDK-03 - 4 (AWACs)

Plus Pakistan has around 70 drones armed and Unarmed ,I have only included the main aircrafts of the PAF ...

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## Ultima Thule

abdulbarijan said:


> SU-35, J-10 and Yak-130 are NOT on order ... and we have heck of alot of threads dedicated to the aircrafts that you mention ... please refrain from posting meaningless threads like these ...


sir he said that these aircrafts not on order but PAF interested in those jets

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## SSGcommandoPAK

No at first i accidently wrote on order , I am sorry members

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## Ankit Kumar

YousufSSG said:


> *The PAF has around 920 -950 aircafts in its fleet ...........
> 
> PAFs current and new acquisitions*
> *Jets *
> 60 - JF-17s ( 90 on order )
> 80 - F-16s (8 new F-16s on order)
> 75 - Mirage 3 /////////////////////
> 82 - Mirage 5 /////////////////////
> 185 - F-7s / F-7p / F-7pg
> 
> 
> *Planes the PAF is interested in
> Su-35s
> j-10s
> yak-130*
> 
> *Trainer aircraft *
> 
> 150 - Super Mushak (basic trainer)
> 60 - K-8 (intermediate trainer ) - ( 20 on order )
> 65 - T-37 (intermediate Trainer) - (34 gifted by Turkey this year)
> 
> *Transport aircraft*
> USSR Antonov An-26 - 1
> 
> USA Lockheed C-130 Hercules - 18
> 
> Harbin y-12 - 2
> 
> Saab 2000 - 1
> 
> USSR Ilyushin Il-78 - 4
> Il-78MK
> 
> Pakistan has 10 more transport aircrafts which i have not mentioned
> 
> 
> *Helicopters *
> Mi-17 - 80
> Aloutte - 95
> Cobra gunships - 50
> Z-10 gunships - 3 ( more on order )
> Vipers ( 15 on order )
> Mi-35 ( 12 on order )
> 
> Pakistan has around 50 more helis which i have not mentioned ....
> 
> * Special Mission Aircraft *
> Dassult falcon - 3
> Saab 2000 Ereiye - 4 (AWACS )
> Shaanxi ZDK-03 - 4 (AWACs)
> 
> Plus Pakistan has around 70 drones armed and Unarmed ,I have only included the main aircrafts of the PAF ...



Corrections. Don't take it otherwise buddy. 
1. F16s => 76
2.Actual number of active F7s is 143, may be +- 5. But its around that number. 
3.Cobra Gunships 51, active numbers may be around 48. But I don't gurantee it.


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Ankit Kumar said:


> Corrections. Don't take it otherwise buddy.
> 1. F16s => 76
> 2.Actual number of active F7s is 143, may be +- 5. But its around that number.
> 3.Cobra Gunships 51, active numbers may be around 48. But I don't gurantee it.




I am afraid, you are quoting information from WikiPedia which is, fortunately, un-correct as far as my knowledge. No Offence buddy.


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## Ankit Kumar

On F16s, its exact. 
On F7s, its very near. The number 186 is wrong , as far as I know 2 squadrons of F7s have been replaced in last 2years by Jf17 and F16. You may ask your senior Pakistani members here related to Pakistan Airforce. 

On Cobras I said the active numbers, I am not sure but again feel free to ask your senior members. It won't be beyond 48. 

And my numbers are not based on wiki. 

You would be surprised but I have kept a small note or database you can say , on Pakistani Armed forces and Chinese Navy. 
And I take at least 5 different sources if available to make a change. So I am quite moderate too. 

But as I say I stand to be corrected if wrong anywhere. 


Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> I am afraid, you are quoting information from WikiPedia which is, fortunately, un-correct as far as my knowledge. No Offence buddy.


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## Sulman Badshah

Ankit Kumar said:


> 1. F16s => 76


78.. (2 embargoed one have been received recently)

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## Rahil khan

Even Argentinean air force has grounded their Mirages, and here we are still flying them.. really worries me...our priceless pilots are constantly putting their lives at risk while dealing with such an old 3rd generation platform....!!!

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## Ankit Kumar

Sulman Badshah said:


> 78.. (2 embargoed one have been received recently)



Can you list the squadron they are assigned too?



Rahil khan said:


> Even Argentinean air force has grounded their Mirages, and here we are still flying them.. really worries me...our priceless pilots are constantly putting their lives at risk while dealing uch an old 3rd generation platform....!!!



The mirages as claimed are not so bad. I can say pretty surely that they have constant spares support and are capable. They will be replaced at their own pace.

Not very far back in history you all bought the whole Libyan fleet. That has kept the fleet going.


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## Tipu7

Ankit Kumar said:


> ou would be surprised but I have kept a small note or database you can say , on Pakistani Armed forces and Chinese Navy.
> And I take at least 5 different sources if available to make a change.


Then tell me how many Jf17, Al Khalid, Al Zarrar Pakistan have......?


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## Sulman Badshah

Ankit Kumar said:


> Can you list the squadron they are assigned too?


This is their serial number ... 

*92622 'RETRO61'
92731 'RETRO62'*

Egyptian Air Force F-16Cs on delivery | Military Aviation Review

USAF delivered pakistan two embargoed Pakistani F-16s

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## Ankit Kumar

Tipu7 said:


> Then tell me how many Jf17, Al Khalid, Alrrar Pakistan have......?



49 Block 1, At least 14 Block, cannot say all are inducted into the squadron or not. 

On Al Khalid , Pakistan Army has At least 650 of them. 
Al Zarrar, if I count all the T55/54/Type59/upgraded ones, around 1,300 .
If I count the upgraded ones, near around 700 At least.


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## Super Falcon

Status on J 10B unknown like a ufo mistry do we buy them or not as we had requirement of 36


Pakistan aeging C 130 fleet any plans to slowly replace them 3 decades past that paf bought any new cargo planes

Cn 235 was old il 76 was tankers thats it


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## Ankit Kumar

Super Falcon said:


> Status on J 10B unknown like a ufo mistry do we buy them or not as we had requirement of 36
> 
> 
> Pakistan aeging C 130 fleet any plans to slowly replace them 3 decades past that paf bought any new cargo planes
> 
> Cn 235 was old il 76 was tankers thats it



C130s had received an overhaul , they still can serve their purpose and in a cost effective way.

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## Mughal-Prince

Ankit Kumar said:


> C130s had received an overhaul , they still can serve their purpose and in a cost effective way.



Well Ankit I appreciate you kept a good eye at our assets .

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Ankit Kumar said:


> On F16s, its exact.
> On F7s, its very near. The number 186 is wrong , as far as I know 2 squadrons of F7s have been replaced in last 2years by Jf17 and F16. You may ask your senior Pakistani members here related to Pakistan Airforce.
> 
> On Cobras I said the active numbers, I am not sure but again feel free to ask your senior members. It won't be beyond 48.
> 
> And my numbers are not based on wiki.
> 
> You would be surprised but I have kept a small note or database you can say , on Pakistani Armed forces and Chinese Navy.
> And I take at least 5 different sources if available to make a change. So I am quite moderate too.
> 
> But as I say I stand to be corrected if wrong anywhere.




Concerning about F-16s, you are wrong, Pakistan has received 2 embargoed F-16 from US in the later days too, that's what I was saying dude.


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## tarrar

The problem is old dying fleet of Mirages & F7, they need to be replaced with SU35, nothing less.

Increasing the quantity of WZ10 & Zulus is what should be PD's priority, PD should acquire at least 30 of them. Also increase in quantity of MI35 is required as it will serve well with Spec ops.


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## wiseone2

tarrar said:


> The problem is old dying fleet of Mirages & F7, they need to be replaced with SU35, nothing less.
> 
> Increasing the quantity of WZ10 & Zulus is what should be PD's priority, PD should acquire at least 30 of them. Also increase in quantity of MI35 is required as it will serve well with Spec ops.



i will be surprised if the PAF signs the deal for Su-35. Acquiring twenty or so Mi-35 should be a no brainer


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## SSGcommandoPAK

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> I am afraid, you are quoting information from WikiPedia which is, fortunately, un-correct as far as my knowledge. No Offence buddy.


Yes i have taken some info from the wiki

Pakistan recently got 14 F-16s from the US , which were used in Afghanistan


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## AtiF Malang

PAF also have CN 235

How did we get An 26 ?


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## Ankit Kumar

AtiF Malang said:


> PAF also have CN 235
> 
> How did we get An 26 ?


I don't know the exact incident but one afghan pilot with his An26 defected to Pakistan. So PAF has one An26. Though if it is operational now or not it is unclear.

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## hassan1



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## Foxtrot-Bravo

YousufSSG said:


> Yes i have taken some info from the wiki
> 
> Pakistan recently got 14 F-16s from the US , which were used in Afghanistan




I didn't object you mate, I was saying that to the Indian friend who was pretending that your figures were incorrect.

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## mingle

According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.

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## mingle

My Guess is EF 2000

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## Mav3rick

Highly unlikely. Why would PAF go for any new platform until India actually procures Rafael.

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## mingle

Mav3rick said:


> Highly unlikely. Why would PAF go for any new platform until India actually procures Rafael.


Haris said very soon it mean negotiations at some final stage .india Rafale deal is done for sure .its a news he broke not his idea or Guess sources r AHQ

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## karakoram

i hope this time they taken the sane step and procure something suction free

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## HAIDER

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.


Last check , its pending 40 J10

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## Maj.Osmani

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.


Fake hoax news or simply GUP
@MastanKhan @Zarvan 
Now ladu tu bantey hien na. woh bhi boondhi walay...




@Arsalan

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## WaLeEdK2

HAIDER said:


> Last check , its pending 40 J10



Lol I thought j10 deal was scrapped?


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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> Last check , its pending 40 J10


No idea Shah G could be but if it would be FC20 he prabably told us but he kept quite on type for sure its not from China .F16 PAF looking used one not new ones As per Haris .Could be Su or EF these is no other option if we see whole GCC going EF s then chances r we will go for EF 2000 if it's EF then would be through Italy .

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## HAIDER

mingle said:


> No idea Shah G could be but if it would be FC20 he prabably told us but he kept quite on type for sure its not from China .F16 PAF looking used one not new ones As per Haris .Could be Su or EF these is no other option if we whole GCC going EF s then chances r we will go for EF 2000


Sir jii...people are underestimating J10C, but again engine issue, it has AL31 Sat , Russian. God knows from where this Harris guy pulled new planes theory .

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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> Sir jii...people are underestimating J10C, but again engine issue, it has AL31 Sat , Russian. God know from where this Harris guy pulled new planes theory .


Shah G Haris and Usman Shabir r two most inner guys .My guess is EF trench 3 as per Boota Shahib guess at PDF too .

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## HAIDER

mingle said:


> Shah G Haris and Usman Shabir r two most inner guys .My guess is EF trench 3 as per Boota Shahib guess at PDF too .


EF is 140 million a piece ....Pakistan can t pay 470 million for new F16 ...

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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> EF is 140 million a piece ....Pakistan can t pay 470 million for new F16 ...


Shah G ur right but u will hear very soon about these jets on news .

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Here is an interesting video..

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## Imran Khan

we have these lollypops since last 15 years . i will never belive until i see them in pakistani colors

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## Maj.Osmani

Colonel Burton said:


> No disrespect but you guys cannot afford but then fan boys will be fan boys


OK same for you what about complete assembly line for F-16/F-18 or Rafale same fan boys both sides of the borders.

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## The Sandman

Sigh threads like these work like a magnet for indian trolls who're obsessed with us 


Colonel Burton said:


> No disrespect but you guys cannot afford but then fan boys will be fan boys

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## Djinn

Lately rumors have been going around that Pakistan is interested in Euro Fighter and SU-35, but i guess only time will tell.

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## Mav3rick

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Here is an interesting video..



BS propaganda video with factually incorrect assertions!

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## ACE OF THE AIR

European Fighter Aircraft 
EFT USD 32400 Flying cost
Rafale USD 28000 Flying cost.

Russian Fighter Aircraft
Mig-35 USD 15600 Flying cost
Su-35 USD 36000 Flying cost

Looking at these the option could only be one of the European Fighter aircraft.

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## Super Falcon

If Army can use four type of halos when they can mange with 2 types. Why your meter sticks on PAF
PAF needs much needed air superiority role of fighter jet training and infrastructure are no issues if you are professionals

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## Imran Khan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> European Fighter Aircraft
> EFT USD 32400 Flying cost
> Rafale USD 28000 Flying cost.
> 
> Russian Fighter Aircraft
> Mig-35 USD 15600 Flying cost
> Su-35 USD 36000 Flying cost
> 
> Looking at these the option could only be one of the European Fighter aircraft.


sir so high price or miss informed?

as i know its 

rafale was 16000$
f-16 was 5000$
EU fighter was 14000$

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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> we have these lollypops since last 15 years . i will never belive until i see them in pakistani colors





Djinn said:


> Lately rumors have been going around that Pakistan is interested in Euro Fighter and SU-35, but i guess only time will tell.


if it's EF 2000 it would be compliment from our friends like Eygpt.SU 35 has less chance I feel it's more to do common platform with GCC .

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## danger007

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.



F -22 ???

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## mingle

danger007 said:


> F -22 ???


No thanks last time I heard F22 s gonna be Made In India .so we don't need them .

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## Strigon

Dont celebrate or spread news overly quickly. Last time Su-35 news however unbelievable it was to start with turned out to be false and all the fanboys got disappointed.

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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> if it's EF 2000 it would be compliment from our friends like Eygpt.SU 35 has less chance I feel it's more to do common platform with GCC .


i don't think so sir . no any new fighter and why we spend a huge portion of money on it? its not the time for buying anything fleet is working well and after 5 to 10 years we will have now new jets .its just another f-10 and su-35 type hypo


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## Beethoven

After getting this news i checked out the specs of both EF as well as Su 35 and to make the long story short the EF lacks SAR which means its ground attack role would be limited not to mention the fact that it also cannot be used in anti shipping role as well therefore my take is if you are looking for an air superiority platform then EF is the best choice otherwise go for Su 35

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## Tipu7

Possible Candidates ...........

Though Mirage 2000-9 is 2nd hand option, Rafale is too expensive.
Mig35 is most feasible but PAF is most interested in Su35 ..........

So lets see............

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## Djinn

mingle said:


> if it's EF 2000 it would be compliment from our friends like Eygpt.SU 35 has less chance I feel it's more to do common platform with GCC .


I am not aware of the Egypt's connection with Euro Fighter as Egypt has Rafale, however KSA operates Typhoons. As for SU-35, rumors regarding it's acquisition hold more grounds than the EFT ones because the SU-35 rumors have also appeared in Russian media sources and since China also has extensive experience with Flankers, i don't see why that should be a problem.


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## The Sandman

On topic- Well so far this looks like another 'rumour' but if it's true than i hope we will go for the Euro fighter 


Colonel Burton said:


> Its not like u guys dont come to the indian defence page.


oh pls atleast i don't visit your 3rd class forums and if you're talking about PDF's indian defence pages than i rarely comment on any topic and when i do i don't troll like you ppl

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> sir so high price or miss informed?
> 
> as i know its
> 
> rafale was 16000$
> f-16 was 5000$
> EU fighter was 14000$


Sir, I am trying to conform but this is what i found but still it is 2006 data. 

EFT (UK version):

2006 – 143,8 million USD per plane program unit cost (118,6 million USD per plane w.s. flyaway), Tranche 2 (?) (102,8 and 141,9 million USD German version).

2008 – 122 million USD per plane (68.9 million GBP, 77.7 million EUR) w.s. flyaway

2009 – 90 million EUR per plane (141 million USD) (Tranche 3)

2011 – 199 million USD per plane program unit cost (121,5 million USD per w.s. plane flyaway), Tranche 3

18 000 USD per hour of flight operating cost

Dassault Rafale

Rafale C

2008 – 82.3 million USD flyaway cost (68,8 million USD without VAT; VAT is 19,6%); 135.8 million USD unit program cost

2011 – 88,8 million USD unit flyaway

2014 – 92,7 million USD flyaway cost

Rafale M

2008 – 90.5 million USD flyaway cost (75,7 million USD without VAT); 145.7 million USD unit program cost

2011 – 102 million USD unit flyaway

2014 – 109,6 million USD flyaway cost

Rafale B

2011 – 95,6 million USD unit flyaway

2014 – 102,6 million USD flyaway cost

10 000 Euros for Rafale C and B, 7 000 Euros for Rafale M per hour of flight in 2012; 19 000 USD per hour of flight in combat operations in Mali

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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> i don't think so sir . no any new fighter and why we spend a huge portion of money on it? its not the time for buying anything fleet is working well and after 5 to 10 years we will have now new jets .its just another f-10 and su-35 type hypo


Could be Sir it's a News by Someone I trust him


Djinn said:


> I am not aware of the Egypt's connection with Euro Fighter as Egypt has Rafale, however KSA operates Typhoons. As for SU-35, rumors regarding it's acquisition hold more grounds than the EFT ones because the SU-35 rumors have also appeared in Russian media sources and since China also has extensive experience with Flankers, i don't see why that should be a problem.


No I meant GCC paid those jets for Egypt plus ships and Heli carrier .i am talking about $$$$ here .


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> F -22 ???


no your beloved *LEAST CRAPY AIRCRAFT *is better than F-22 we live in real world

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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> Could be Sir it's a News by Someone I trust him
> 
> No I meant GCC paid those jets for Egypt plus ships and Heli carrier .i am talking about $$$$ here .


i wish your trusted guy was right but i did not trust these things sir


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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> i don't think so sir . no any new fighter and why we spend a huge portion of money on it? its not the time for buying anything fleet is working well and after 5 to 10 years we will have now new jets .its just another f-10 and su-35 type hypo


Could be Sir it's a News by Someone I trust him its


Tipu7 said:


> Possible Candidates ...........
> 
> Though Mirage 2000-9 is 2nd hand option, Rafale is too expensive.
> Mig35 is most feasible but PAF is most interested in Su35 ..........
> 
> So lets see............
> 
> View attachment 311520


its not Rafale .Mirage 2000 not gonna add any thing new .Could be EF or Russian option if money is there then Airforce will opted EF 2000


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## Taimur Khurram

mingle said:


> My Guess is EF 2000



Highly unlikely.

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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> i wish your trusted guy was right but i did not trust these things sir


Ur choice but there is third type is coming could be anything but not chines or yanks



dsr478 said:


> Highly unlikely.


Let's finger crossed wait and see


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## Taimur Khurram

The Sandman said:


> On topic- Well so far this looks like another 'rumour' but if it's true than i hope we will go for the Euro fighter
> 
> oh pls atleast i don't visit your 3rd class forums and if you're talking about PDF's indian defence pages than i rarely comment on any topic and when i do i don't troll like you ppl



Us buying the Eurofighter is impossible. The most advanced aircraft we can actually buy is the Su-35 or Gripen, depending on which you think is better.

I'm hoping for either the Su-35 or Gripen, but the J-10 seems like the most likely candidate.

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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> Ur choice but there is third type is coming could be anything but not chines or yanks


technically it will be mistake 

f-16s
thunders
and fifth gen 

this was future plan for low cost less spare issue and deals .


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## Taimur Khurram

mingle said:


> Ur choice but there is third type is coming could be anything but not chines or yanks
> 
> 
> Let's finger crossed wait and see



Yes we will, but the only European plane we can get is the Gripen.


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## The Sandman

dsr478 said:


> Us buying the Eurofighter is impossible. The most advanced aircraft we can actually buy is the Su-35 or Gripen, depending on which you think is better.
> 
> I'm hoping for either the Su-35 or Gripen, but the J-10 seems like the most likely candidate.


I know EF is expensive but Gripen or Su35? nah no chance india is never gonna let that happen and OP says no US or Chinese aircrafts so... EF is the only fighter i can think of

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## Djinn

mingle said:


> Could be Sir it's a News by Someone I trust him
> 
> No I meant GCC paid those jets for Egypt plus ships and Heli carrier .i am talking about $$$$ here .


Ahh! So why did they pay for Egypt? Yemen war? We have extended a huge deal of favors to them as well, but i doubt if they will treat us the same way as they treat Egypt.


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## dadeechi

mingle said:


> My Guess is EF 2000



No. It would be SU-35s.

Note that Pakistan is moving away from US, EU & GCC and closer to China & Russia.

Both Russia and China operate SU-35s.

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## Ultima Thule

Imran Khan said:


> technically it will be mistake
> 
> f-16s
> thunders
> and fifth gen
> 
> this was future plan for low cost less spare issue and deals .


your on the spot imran bahi exactly my thought

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## MastanKhan

HAIDER said:


> EF is 140 million a piece ....Pakistan can t pay 470 million for new F16 ...



Can't pay and won't pay are two different things.

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## Ultima Thule

dsr478 said:


> Yes we will, but the only European plane we can get is the Gripen.


No we had trying to purchase GRIPEN in early 2000 but Sweden disagreed to sell offensive weapon to Pakistan, the only option is left EF2000 from Europe or may be J-10c or J-10d will comming


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## New World

some years ago a news came that PAF is getting new latest J-10, and we waited for years but nothing came out..
then another news came last year that PAF is going to get Su-35, and we waited almost a year but nothing came out..
now new news are coming that PAF is going to get HighEnd 40 jets, and we will have to wait a year.. and hopes are high on nothing is coming...

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## Manticore

J16 on lease for Gwadar
J-10 might be having engine problems

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## Blue Marlin

Maj.Osmani said:


> Fake hoax news or simply GUP
> @MastanKhan @Zarvan
> Now ladu tu bantey hien na. woh bhi boondhi walay...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Arsalan


ooooh what is that?

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## waz

The only other option is the Typhoon, which has been pitched to the PAF and has two reliable partners in the form of the UK and Italy, but then finances are questionable.
There is no way it's a Grippen, Sweden has refused in the past and Pakistan won't ask again. The SU-35 is an impossibility due to Indian pressure.

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## dadeechi

The Sandman said:


> I know EF is expensive but Gripen or Su35? nah no chance india is never gonna let that happen and OP says no US or Chinese aircrafts so... EF is the only fighter i can think of



No US or NO China meaning it is Russia

Either SU-35 or MIG-35.



pakistanipower said:


> your on the spot imran bahi exactly my thought



Pakistan cannot afford to wait until J-31 matures. It would have to go for either SU-35s or MIG-35s


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## Falcon26

Potentially a Chinese Flanker knockoff, if the source is to be believed. In that case meh! It just adds infrastructural problems with limited benefits. If it's an Typhoon, then it's a huge jump and will restore the quality balance in the region. 

A PAF that operates 110 F-16s, 40 Typhoons and ~250 JF-17 supported by Erieye and Chinese AWACS is one hell of a nightmare for any Air Force.

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## Beethoven

Typhoon with the Captor aesa radar would rule the skies of south asia....should definitely go for it...it would checkmate anything our adversary already has or would have
Secondly the Typhoon story gets a little bit of credibility from the fact that it was recently flown from Lincolnshire by our very own ACM Aman

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> The only other option is the Typhoon, which has been pitched to the PAF and has two reliable partners in the form of the UK and Italy, but then finances are questionable.
> There is no way it's a Grippen, Sweden has refused in the past and Pakistan won't ask again. The SU-35 is an impossibility due to Indian pressure.


the typhoon is possible but its a 10 year old's wish list and they wont be ready till 2023 which is when pakistan will induct the 5th gen fighter so no need. remember oman ordered the typhoons in 2012 and are getting them in 2017 and that was when they needed orders and kuwait has ordered them recently so there is a backlog

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## Benign Persona

MastanKhan said:


> Can't pay and won't pay are two different things.


thats whats some members dont understand

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## The Sandman

waz said:


> The only other option is the Typhoon, which has been pitched to the PAF and has two reliable partners in the form of the UK and Italy, but then finances are questionable.
> There is no way it's a Grippen, Sweden has refused in the past and Pakistan won't ask again. The SU-35 is an impossibility due to Indian pressure.


That's what i am saying Su 35 is impossible due to indian pressure EFt is the only choice

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## Centurion2016

Euro Fighter Typhoon was designed fromm the outset to be the best fighter in nhe world to tackle the Flankers and mig29S

many experts claim in pure air superiority role the Typhoon is second only to F22 raptor even today.

40 meteore equipped Typhoons would give even 100 flankers a nightmare.

PAF need to find a way to pay $8 billion to buy them.

Saudi can help you.

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## Benign Persona

Blue Marlin said:


> ooooh what is that?


EF 2000


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## waz

Blue Marlin said:


> the typhoon is possible but its a 10 year old wish list and they wont be ready till 2023 which is when pakistani will induct the 5th gen fighter so no need. remember oman orderd the typhoons in2012 and are getting them in 2017 and that was when they needed orders



Fifth generation jets will be a very small number and inducted slowly. The Typhoon will be just as important then. You're right about Oman.
Oh well, we will just have to wait and see. It would be great for us, if Pakistan does pick the jet.

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## Curious_Guy

Its called "Ladoo" , its a type of sweet .. 

not looking very tasty in that particular picture though



Blue Marlin said:


> ooooh what is that?


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## Falcon26

Beethoven said:


> Typhoon with the Captor aesa radar would rule the skies of south asia....should definitely go for it...it would checkmate anything our adversary already has or would have
> Secondly the Typhoon story gets a little bit of credibility from the fact that it was recently flown from Lincolnshire by our very own ACM Aman



Not to mention the many meetings between Italy and Pakistan recently

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> Fifth generation jets will be a very small number and inducted slowly. The Typhoon will be just as important then. You're right about Oman.
> Oh well, we will just have to wait and see. It would be great for us, if Pakistan does pick the jet.


i think its fan boys fan flaring here so no need yes they typhoons would keep indian rafale in check (when ever they ome) also the newer 3b variant is also being considered but us lot as we may buy 48 of them.
that will run rings around anything in asia.



Curious_Guy said:


> Its called "Ladoo" , its a type of sweet ..
> 
> not looking very tasty in that particular picture though


ok thanks

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## Beethoven

Its a win win situation isnt it.....purchase of Typhoons may open up other avenues of co operation like Aesa for thunders and who knows we may opt for EJ 200 for JF 17s to maintain engine commonality of our fleet

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## Abingdonboy

Tipu7 said:


> Though Mirage 2000-9 is 2nd hand option, Rafale is too expensive.Mig35 is most feasible but PAF is most interested in Su35 ..........


- Mirage 2000-9:
https://defence.pk/threads/open-deb...for-paf-aye-or-nay.293790/page-8#post-5150536

-Rafale is a non-starter because of India

-MiG-35- Same as above

-Su-35- Same as above


The EFT is probably the only non-Chinese/American MMRCA that the PAF could conceivebly get at this point.

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## Shah Xaib

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.


JAS 39/j10


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## dadeechi

The Sandman said:


> That's what i am saying Su 35 is impossible due to indian pressure EFt is the only choice



India no longer has much leverage over Russia and it has been consistently going down by the day.

If Pakistan is seriously interested, Russia would surely sell both SU-35s and MIG-35s

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## war&peace

HAIDER said:


> Last check , its pending 40 J10


He said neither Chinese nor American and J-10 is Chinese aircraft and that's not highend by any means...bigger than JF-17 but not really high end, It can either be EF, SU-35 or Mirage 2009


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## Shah Xaib

Or maybe a trainer? btw who is haris khan?


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## dadeechi

Beethoven said:


> Its a win win situation isnt it.....purchase of Typhoons may open up other avenues of co operation like Aesa for thunders and who knows we may opt for EJ 200 for JF 17s to maintain engine commonality of our fleet



That would be a masterstroke.

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## Abingdonboy

dadeechi said:


> India no longer has much leverage over Russia and it has been consistently going down by the day.


$50BN in defence deals between India and Russia in the next 10 years is HUGE leverage with a country in recession (as Russia is).

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## dadeechi

Centurion2016 said:


> Euro Fighter Typhoon was designed fromm the outset to be the best fighter in nhe world to tackle the Flankers and mig29S
> 
> many experts claim in pure air superiority role the Typhoon is second only to F22 raptor even today.
> 
> 40 meteore equipped Typhoons would give even 100 flankers a nightmare.
> 
> PAF need to find a way to pay $8 billion to buy them.
> 
> Saudi can help you.




Also historically both UK & Italy have been closer to Pakistan.

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## Maj.Osmani

Blue Marlin said:


> ooooh what is that?


Ladu..


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## New World

Blue Marlin said:


> the typhoon is possible but its a 10 year old's wish list and they wont be ready till 2023 which is when pakistan will induct the 5th gen fighter so no need. remember oman ordered the typhoons in 2012 and are getting them in 2017 and that was when they needed orders and kuwait has ordered them recently so there is a backlog





waz said:


> Fifth generation jets will be a very small number and inducted slowly. The Typhoon will be just as important then. You're right about Oman.
> Oh well, we will just have to wait and see. It would be great for us, if Pakistan does pick the jet.



sir, i read somewhere that BAE's production line will be shutdowned in 2018 because of lack of orders...

http://www.janes.com/article/53305/bae-systems-may-gap-typhoon-production-in-2018

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## Ultima Thule

dadeechi said:


> No US or NO China meaning it is Russia
> 
> Either SU-35 or MIG-35.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan cannot afford to wait until J-31 matures. It would have to go for either SU-35s or MIG-35s


Sir Not possible because of Indian pressure on Russia

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## dadeechi

Abingdonboy said:


> $50BN in defence deals between India and Russia in the next 10 years is HUGE leverage with a country in recession (as Russia is).



India would have leverage over Russia if

1) India is buying something from Russia in spite of India having alternate options. This is not the case today as India has been buying things from Russia that no other country is willing to sell to India. This is changing rapidly as most of the West including US is now happy to sell everything to India and India is not disappointing them either.

2) Russia does not have any alternate options other than selling to India. With India diversifying to other suppliers, Russia no longer feels obligated to not to sell to Pakistan. This has been happening for almost a decade now.



pakistanipower said:


> Sir Not possible because of Indian pressure on Russia



See my post above (post #76)

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## Abingdonboy

dadeechi said:


> India would have leverage over Russia if
> 
> 1) India is buying something from Russia in spite of India having alternate options. This is not the case today as India has been buying things from Russia that no other country is willing to sell to India. This is changing rapidly as most of the West including US is now happy to sell everything to India and India is not disappointing them either.
> 
> 2) Russia does not have any alternate options other than selling to India. With India diversifying to other suppliers, Russia no longer feels obligated to not to sell to Pakistan. This has been happening for almost a decade now.
> 
> 
> 
> See my post above (post #76)


I'll say it again, India and Russia will have at least $50BN USD worth of defence deals in the next 10 years and will remain their largest defence customer, there is no way to ignore India has signifcant leverage over Russia, especially where Pakistan is concerned.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Operating costs are not that easy to determine because they are to be calculated according to each and every environment (country).

*Operating Costs are based on these:*

1) Airplane Related Operating Cost (AROC);

2) LIFE-CYCLE COST (LCC) CATEGORIES

3) Systems Related Operating Cost (SROC).

*Airplane Related Operating Cost (AROC)*

This comprises on two major parts *CAPITAL COSTS* and *CASH AIRPLANE RELATED OPERATING COSTS*.

*Capital Cost* is the price to be paid which can be done upfront or through financing, it also includes Insurance and Depreciation.

*CASH AIRPLANE RELATED OPERATING COSTS *includes Crew, Fuel, Maintenance, Landing, Ground Handling, GPE Depreciation, GPE Maintenance Control & Communications.

*Non-Recurring Cost *

Cost incurred one time only:

-Engineering

- Airframe design/analysis

- Configuration control

- Systems engineering Tooling

- Design of tools and fixtures

- Fabrication of tools and fixtures Other

- Development support

- Flight testing

*Recurring Cost*

Cost incurred per unit:

Labor

- Fabrication

- Assembly

- Integration Material to manufacture

- Raw material

- Purchased outside production

- Purchased equipment Production support

- QA

- Production tooling support

- Engineering support

*Cost Modeling *

• Aircraft is broken down into modules – Inner wing, outer wing, …

– Modules are classified by type

• Wing, Empennage, Fuselage, …

• Cost per pound specified for each module type

– Calibrated from existing cost models

– Modified by other factors

• Learning effects

• Commonality effects

• Assembly & Integration: a separate “module”

• 2 cost categories: development & manufacturing Production run: a collection of modules

*LIFE-CYCLE COST CATEGORIES *

Life-cycle cost is defined as the sum of four major cost categories:

(1) Research and development costs;

(2) Investment costs, consisting of procurement, military construction, and acquisition-related operations and maintenance (O&M) associated with the production and deployment activities;

(3) O&S costs; and

(4) Disposal costs.


Hence it can vary for the same aircraft in two different environments i.e if F-16’s are flown by both PAF and PN. For PN the operating cost would be higher as compared to PAF because of the requirement.


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## Zarvan

Dam where are those people who were making fun of me all the time ???? Yes we are buying and most probably they are SU-35.

@Arsalan @waz

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> $50BN in defence deals between India and Russia in the next 10 years is HUGE leverage with a country in recession (as Russia is).



Because india is literally dependent on Russia .. From T-90 parts to ammo and that formula goes for each and every Russian system used by india.... From Brahmos down to your nuclear subs .. It's indja that's dependent on Russia not the other way around.

Apart from that geopolitics shifts are crazy things



Just saying.


********


@Topic ; Could very well be the J series flankers.

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## Ultima Thule

Abingdonboy said:


> I'll say it again, India and Russia will have at least $50BN USD worth of defence deals in the next 10 years and will remain their largest defence customer, there is no way to ignore India has signifcant leverage over Russia, especially where Pakistan is concerned.


you are on thee spot sir, i totally agree with you

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## Benign Persona

pakistanipower said:


> Sir Not possible because of Indian pressure on Russia


what pressure? where was that pressure when russia was selling s 400 to china? where was that pressure when russian was selling su 35 to china? putin dont give a damn about anything what i hear from my russian friends, so it can happen.

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## Signalian

Imran Khan said:


> technically it will be mistake
> 
> f-16s
> thunders
> and fifth gen
> 
> this was future plan for low cost less spare issue and deals .



5th gen compromises either stealth or payload/range. The avionics are excellent.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

how much SU $$$ per peace?


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## dadeechi

Abingdonboy said:


> I'll say it again, India and Russia will have at least $50BN USD worth of defence deals in the next 10 years and will remain their largest defence customer, there is no way to ignore India has signifcant leverage over Russia, especially where Pakistan is concerned.



I know what you are saying but let me give an example

What happens if Russia sells SU-35s to Pakistan? Would India pull out of FGFA or Brahmos JVs? No because that is the best that India has on offer today from any supplier in the world. Wherever India had options it selected others - be it RAFALEs, Apaches, Chinooks, C130s, Scorpenes etc.

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## dadeechi

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> how much SU $$$ per peace?



$85 million a piece


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

85 or 50?


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## Maj.Osmani

Blue Marlin said:


> ooooh what is that?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laddu


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## Benign Persona

the EF Typhoon aircraft's counter air performance is cited as its major strength, and it is frequently cited to be “82% as effective as an F-22. 


Centurion2016 said:


> many experts claim in pure air superiority role the Typhoon is second only to F22 raptor even today.





Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> how much SU $$$ per peace?


su 35: 40 to 65 million
MIG 35: 30 to 40 million
EF: more thn 100 million

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

su vs mig? which good? y?

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## Abingdonboy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Because india is literally dependent on Russia .. From T-90 parts to ammo and that formula goes for each and every Russian system used by india.. Apart from that geopolitics shifts are crazy things... From Brahmos down to your nuclear subs .. It's indja that's dependent on Russia not the other way around.
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> 
> ********
> 
> 
> @Topic ; Could very well be the J series flankers.





dadeechi said:


> I know what you are saying but let me give an example
> 
> What happens if Russia sells SU-35s to Pakistan? Would India pull out of FGFA or Brahmos JVs? No because that is the best that India has on offer today from any supplier in the world. Wherever India had options it selected others - be it RAFALEs, Apaches, Chinooks, C130s, Scorpenes etc.


$50BN in defence sales over the next 10 years could be $75BN in the following 10 years or $10BN depending on the Indo-Russian relations going foreward, there is a lot at stake for both sides and frankly most nations will not put their relations with an emerging global giant for........Pakistan. Geopolitical realities will see to that.

Leaving all of this talk about abstract concepts such as geopolitics and "influence" to one side, the most rudimentary question is that of cost. If the PAF is unable/unwilling to pay full price for some F-16 Blk.52s, will they be willing to pay full price for some SU-35s? The Russians aren't going to offer any discounts or exotic financing options.

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Dam where are those people who were making fun of me all the time ???? Yes we are buying and most probably they are SU-35.
> 
> @Arsalan @waz


zarvan it would be EF from Italy

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Dam where are those people who were making fun of me all the time ???? Yes we are buying and most probably they are SU-35.


you alway wrong Mr you always spreading false rumors on PDF Su-35 not possible because of indan factor ,maybe its either EF2000 or J-10c or J-10d

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## Muhammad Omar

Our Procurement Budget for 2016-17 is $5 Billion We can add 40 Planes in 5 Years we can spare the money Easily... And our defence budget is Increasing so No Prob of Money 

Non Chinese Non American then PAF is going for this For sure

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## mingle

Falcon26 said:


> Not to mention the many meetings between Italy and Pakistan recently


i think in future we have turkey and Italy as major countries for arms deal from West

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## karakoram

if Pakistanis is eyeing EF then one thing is for sure someone is paying behalf of us and may be he want something in return like sending our troops may be i am wrong but its my personal opinion which i am sharing. nothing comes free

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## dadeechi

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> 85 or 50?



China bought 24 SU-35 fighters for $2 Billion


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## mingle

pakistanipower said:


> you alway wrong Mr you always spreading false rumors on PDF Su-35 not possible because of indan factor ,maybe its either EF2000 or J-10c or J-10d


No J10 as per Haris due to Engine issue its out from game .


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## The Sandman

dadeechi said:


> China bought 24 SU-35 fighters for $2 Billion


and if we purchase the same amount of Su35's after adding all the cost for the new infrastructure for it how much it will cost us?


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## graphican

On news, General Raheel is flying to Germany next week. Dr Shaid had mentioned that but he stopped without giving reason why.

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## Benign Persona

Muhammad Omar said:


> Our Procurement Budget for 2016-17 is $5 Billion We can add 40 Planes in 5 Years we can spare the money Easily... And our defence budget is Increasing so No Prob of Money
> 
> Non Chinese Non American then PAF is going for this For sure


very true if we buy EF they will not come before 2020-21 so it wont be a big deal to pay 6-7 billions in 4-5 years.


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## mingle

The Sandman said:


> and if we purchase the same amount of Su35's after adding all the cost for the new infrastructure for it how much it will cost us?


i think cost and infrastructure would be same for EF2000 and Su 35 FOR PAK.My idea is its Ef 2000 due to same plane ordered by Kuwait ,oman recently forget about KSA kind of common platform among .



Muhammad Omar said:


> Our Procurement Budget for 2016-17 is $5 Billion We can add 40 Planes in 5 Years we can spare the money Easily... And our defence budget is Increasing so No Prob of Money
> 
> Non Chinese Non American then PAF is going for this For sure


Cant wait to see these jets in Pak Colors while Modi Dhoti getting wet getting Slap from everwhere


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## mingle

karakoram said:


> if Pakistanis is eyeing EF then one thing is for sure someone is paying behalf of us and may be he want something in return like sending our troops may be i am wrong but its my personal opinion which i am sharing. nothing comes free


Military leadership not happy with Iran recent events like spy ring and charbahr issue with increasing indian presence and nexsus with our westren neighbour .its one reason making us cozy with GCC .

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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> you alway wrong Mr you always spreading false rumors on PDF Su-35 not possible because of indan factor ,maybe its either EF2000 or J-10c or J-10d


It's SU-35 and Russia won't get blackmailed by Indians

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## pkd

Read it with the following to get a clearer picture.
*
Pakistan will buy F16,fighter jets from Jordan,Russia,France

Comes down to Su35 and used teens*


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## dadeechi

Abingdonboy said:


> $50BN in defence sales over the next 10 years could be $75BN in the following 10 years or $10BN depending on the Indo-Russian relations going foreward, there is a lot at stake for both sides and frankly most nations will not put their relations with an emerging global giant for........Pakistan. Geopolitical realities will see to that.
> 
> Leaving all of this talk about abstract concepts such as geopolitics and "influence" to one side, the most rudimentary question is that of cost. If the PAF is unable/unwilling to pay full price for some F-16 Blk.52s, will they be willing to pay full price for some SU-35s? The Russians aren't going to offer any discounts or exotic financing options.



If Pakistan is willing to pay or not is an entirely a different topic. All I am saying is Russia is willing to do business with Pakistan, Sold engines & Choppers, Building overhaul facilities and gas pipelines and negotiating to sell S-300s while planning to sell S-400s to India.

For Russia it is not an either or situation.

Russia would do business with China, India, Pakistan, Iran, Vietnam etc.

One can draw an analogy between Indo-Pak and China-Vietnam scenarios and Russia does business with all of them.

How is Russia selling to Vietnam when it has such large deals with China (which India apparently claims as the reason to diversify to the West)?

India having leverage over Russia is a myth.

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## Zarvan

graphican said:


> On news, General Raheel is flying to Germany next week. Dr Shaid had mentioned that but he stopped without giving reason why.


Yes a friend also told about Germany but I am also thinking why. Could be just talks but could be for some deals

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## New World

graphican said:


> On news, General Raheel is flying to Germany next week. Dr Shaid had mentioned that but he stopped without giving reason why.


might be for NSG membership..

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Yes a friend also told about Germany but I am also thinking why. Could be just talks but could be for some deals


Zarvan its mention 40 planes could be Ef OR SU


Zarvan said:


> Yes a friend also told about Germany but I am also thinking why. Could be just talks but could be for some deals


Zarvan sartaj aziz also mention france how about Rafale to both india and Pak ?


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## dadeechi

The Sandman said:


> and if we purchase the same amount of Su35's after adding all the cost for the new infrastructure for it how much it will cost us?



It depends but I would assume Chinese deal would have included the spares and support.



Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> su vs mig? which good? y?



Of course SU-35 is better but you could get almost 2 MIG-35s for 1 SU-35.

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> It's SU-35 and Russia won't get blackmailed by Indians


why are you so sure, *are you in PAF?*


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## Viper0011.

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Here is an interesting video..




Some of the stuff is strange. On a couple of Russian jets, he says they can "take down the Euro fighter before it can see the Russian jet". Which means the Russian jet in question is more advanced (he said this for SU-35, PAk-FA and on one more design). But then he gets to the EFT and says its the only fighter which has a chance to fight the F-22 (which means it is the most advanced one behind the F-22 in electronic warfare, but then, he had already put the EFT down in front of multiple Russian platforms). So it doesn't make sense as the speaker wasn't clear.

In terms of reality, the EFT, SU-35 and PAK-FA would be in the same class. Some slightly more stealthier than the other, but all of them behind Raptor's league.

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## Benign Persona

pakistanipower said:


> why are you so sure, *are you in PAF?*


and why are you so worried about india? no offense just want to get myself educate.


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## 313baberali

Last time we saw sohail aman in typhoon?


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## Viper0011.

Maj.Osmani said:


> *Fake hoax news or simply GUP*
> 
> @MastanKhan @Zarvan



Its not a fake news, I mentioned it a few months ago almost at the same time when the deal with the US for the 8 F-16's had been approved initially. Both the SU-35 and the EFT are being discussed for negotiations. The PAF likes the EFT of course, but the strategist and the Civil government think its time to establish relations with the Russians through SU-35 because India has too much influence on the West. Let's see what comes out.

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## Maj.Osmani

Viper0011. said:


> Its not a fake news, I mentioned it a few months ago almost at the same time when the deal with the US for the 8 F-16's had been approved initially. Both the SU-35 and the EFT are being discussed for negotiations. The PAF likes the EFT of course, but the strategist and the Civil government think its time to establish relations with the Russians through SU-35 because India has too much influence on the West. Let's see what comes out.


It reminds me alice in the wonderland.

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## Muhammad Omar

313baberali said:


> Last time we saw sohail aman in typhoon?



in Typhoon

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## Ultima Thule

Viper0011. said:


> Some of the stuff is strange. On a couple of Russian jets, he says they can "take down the Euro fighter before it can see the Russian jet". Which means the Russian jet in question is more advanced (he said this for SU-35, PAk-FA and on one more design). But then he gets to the EFT and says its the only fighter which has a chance to fight the F-22 (which means it is the most advanced one behind the F-22 in electronic warfare, but then, he had already put the EFT down in front of multiple Russian platforms). So it doesn't make sense as the speaker wasn't clear.
> 
> In terms of reality, the EFT, SU-35 and PAK-FA would be in the same class. Some slightly more stealthier than the other, but all of them behind Raptor's league.


i would like to say EFT, Su-35 are 4.5 gen but PAK-FA is 4.8 or 4.9 gen but i am agree with you that PAK-FA behind F-22's league



Maj.Osmani said:


> It reminds me alice in the wonderland.


no he is right Mr


----------



## Stealth

Trust me i am fed up with these threads.... just laugh nothing else more... our Pakistanis provides full opportunities to everyone for laugh on us..... even Indian now adays reluctant to discuss MMRCA lol

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well Typhoon would be nice to have , but a bit pricy I will wait for formal news


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## dadeechi

Viper0011. said:


> Its not a fake news, I mentioned it a few months ago almost at the same time when the deal with the US for the 8 F-16's had been approved initially. Both the SU-35 and the EFT are being discussed for negotiations. The PAF likes the EFT of course, but the strategist and the Civil government think its time to establish relations with the Russians through SU-35 because India has too much influence on the West. Let's see what comes out.



This may explain why Pakistan did not pursue the option of buying 8 F-16s.

Ideally it should have been India buying SU-35s and Pakistan buying F-16s but with the change in the direction of the winds, now we have India planning to buy F-16s while Pakistan planning to buy SU-35s.


----------



## khail007

New World said:


> some years ago a news came that PAF is getting new latest J-10, and we waited for years but nothing came out..
> then another news came last year that PAF is going to get Su-35, and we waited almost a year but nothing came out..
> now new news are coming that PAF is going to get HighEnd 40 jets, and we will have to wait a year.. and hopes are high on nothing is coming...



Sir Jee, you know that Pakistan has a very mysterious record sometimes you does not know what equipment are under use of our defence forces until some incident happens.

Remember, in 1958 we shot down an IAF Canberra near Rawalpindi, Indians were thinking we do not have anything which could match Canberra's ceiling.

Yesterday, a drone crashed near Mianwali, most of the members were taken aback. Also T-129 spotted in Pakistan. So get yourself ready for another revelation. Though we are poor and beggers as thought from other side of eastern border. Such things make them uncomfortable.

'YEH GHAZI YEH TERAY PUR-ISRAR BANDAY'

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## airmarshal

Who is Haris Khan and what makes him so credible?

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## Ultima Thule

Benign Persona said:


> and why are you so worried about india? no offense just want to get myself educate.


because india still biggest arms importer with russia and and you forget FFGA project, brahmose2 and lots of defense related deals with russia


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## Benign Persona

pakistanipower said:


> because india still biggest arms importer with russia and and you forget FFGA project, brahmose2 and lots of defense related deals with russia


so what?
you need to study a little, china and russia are running projects worth 100bn dollers. still russia sell arms to vietnam who has desputes with china, why?


----------



## The SC

Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> su vs mig? which good? y?



Both very good, but different roles _slightly_, both have AESA and IRST, SU-35 is heavier and has longer range by about 1000 km, Both showcase the latest avionics, EW/CEM and much much more , you can google it ..


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## Viper0011.

Maj.Osmani said:


> It reminds me alice in the wonderland.



Were you with him? Read us that story, while I go do more important things in life


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Colonel Burton said:


> Its not like u guys dont come to the indian defence page.


We have other important stuff to do other then being on Indian Defence pages...We do not like to just talk talk and talk without any constructive work and we are not that obsessed in regards to India as Indians are obsessed with Pakistan. 

If you have something constructive to say in this thread then you are most welcome but if you only wish to act as a troll then please find some thing better.



danger007 said:


> F -22 ???


The day these are offered to Pakistan Indian would be speechless because they would think that they have been back stabbed by their best Friends (Israeli Lobby in USA.)

I totally agree Pakistan should have been given some F22's by USA because that would have compensated the Nuclear Deal with India and also taken Pakistan's economy down the drain... 

Do you not think this would be a big win for the forces that are acting against Pakistan? 



Beethoven said:


> After getting this news i checked out the specs of both EF as well as Su 35 and to make the long story short the EF lacks SAR which means its ground attack role would be limited not to mention the fact that it also cannot be used in anti shipping role as well therefore my take is if you are looking for an air superiority platform then EF is the best choice otherwise go for Su 35


EFT was built as an air superiority fighter later on it was held that it should have limited ground strike capability. Trench 3 would be a swing role aircraft. 

The information available on the internet regarding EFT trench 3 is very limited but we know that it is being financed by KSA so it is being heavily modified. KSA is also actively marketing it along with UK and Italy. 

What is known so far is it would have an upgraded engine and CFT. The same engine is also being offered by Saab for its latest Gripen aircraft as an alternate to the US engine. Turkey is also considering this engine for the KFX project.



Tipu7 said:


> Possible Candidates ...........
> 
> Though Mirage 2000-9 is 2nd hand option, Rafale is too expensive.
> Mig35 is most feasible but PAF is most interested in Su35 ..........
> 
> So lets see............
> 
> View attachment 311520


There are 4 candidates but it is highly likely that it would be Rafale N because it shares the same engine that JF-17B is using and the avionics suit that was being offered to PAF was also based on the same Rafale N's. IAF has so far not signed the final order of their Rafale C so even those could be offered for sale to Pakistan but that is highly unlikely. 

Mig-35's is also using the same engines as the JF-17's and this has being suggested many times by our Indian friends because they know Mig-35's do not give any thing special in regards to technical knowledge like that offered by SU-35. 

Both EFT and SU-35 would be a master stroke if they are chosen. 
The Su-35 offers PAF stealth features and newer engines which open up all possibilities of Chinese origin as well as TFX could also be powered by this engine offing a market that is familiar with the Russian engines.

EFT would also give similar option provided China provides Pakistan with the knowledge of upgrading the Chinese aircraft structure and the work is carried out with Chinese getting the engines for reverse engineering.



mingle said:


> Could be Sir it's a News by Someone I trust him
> 
> No I meant GCC paid those jets for Egypt plus ships and Heli carrier .i am talking about $$$$ here .


We trust your source...but still we can not be 100 percent sure till we actually hear some thing trough MOD or PAF. 



Imran Khan said:


> i wish your trusted guy was right but i did not trust these things sir


Sir, it is true some time we have to wait a little longer for news that we already know off or we are assuming to be correct till it is finally disclosed by someone we trust or it is made public. In Pakistan even is news has been finalised it can still be denied and cancelled. we have hand many past instances were Pakistan was left dry by the US. 



dsr478 said:


> Yes we will, but the only European plane we can get is the Gripen.


If it comes with Euro Jet engine and has more leg then EFT or SU-35.



dadeechi said:


> No. It would be SU-35s.
> 
> Note that Pakistan is moving away from US, EU & GCC and closer to China & Russia.
> 
> Both Russia and China operate SU-35s.


My friend you are assuming too much.... 
PAF is getting US equipment... more F-16's, MLU kits and even the new block 52 if PAF pays for them 100%.

PN is getting US made Global Cutters.

PAA is getting AH-1 Zulu. 

Recently there was a deal with Italy to provide Pakistan with helicopters

If you still consider that Pakistan is getting away from USA and EU you are mistaken. If the Turkish ADA Class Corvettes are ordered they would definitely have EU manufactured stuff on board.

Now coming to the point where you said Pakistan is getting away from the GCC, here again you are wrong. Pakistan recently signed deals with Qatar and KSA for CNG and Oil. They also joined the Joint Arab Forces and are supplying weapons to all Member States. 

The reason you are thinking that Pakistan is not longer the blueied boy of GCC is Pakistan did not enter the Yemen War. Let me inform you Pakistan is fighting a war with the Taliban hence it can not afford to enter into any other conflict but if they are still needed Pakistan still has enough capacity to send enough fighting force and continue to engage all partied that are trying to destabilise Pakistan
. 


MastanKhan said:


> Can't pay and won't pay are two different things.


Very true... it is very difficult for some to comprehend the difference.



Blue Marlin said:


> ooooh what is that?


It is called LADOO. These are traditional sweets that are served on various occasions of happiness. 






The above picture and the picture that was posted earlier was showing Ladoo being prepared(Uncooked).

The picture below is of cooked ready to eat Ladoo.







waz said:


> The only other option is the Typhoon, which has been pitched to the PAF and has two reliable partners in the form of the UK and Italy, but then finances are questionable.
> There is no way it's a Grippen, Sweden has refused in the past and Pakistan won't ask again. The SU-35 is an impossibility due to Indian pressure.


Nothing is impossible in todays world where money talks. However you are correct both Italy and UK are going through financial problems hence they would be interested in selling their EFT. UK has to pay Italy around 40 Billion USD if she leaves the EU so they are trying desperately to find solutions where the money is arraigned from other sources. A deal with PAF would probably be of around USD 4-5 billion which could be increased over the years.
After all PAF has to replace around 200 aircraft and PN is also trying to acquire 2 sqd of dedicated attack aircraft and other equipment like ATR's to replace the ageing F-27 MPA's.



Falcon26 said:


> Potentially a Chinese Flanker knockoff, if the source is to be believed. In that case meh! It just adds infrastructural problems with limited benefits. If it's an Typhoon, then it's a huge jump and will restore the quality balance in the region.
> 
> A PAF that operates 110 F-16s, 40 Typhoons and ~250 JF-17 supported by Erieye and Chinese AWACS is one hell of a nightmare for any Air Force.


Let see how things go...



Blue Marlin said:


> the typhoon is possible but its a 10 year old's wish list and
> 
> they wont be ready till 2023 which is when pakistan will induct the 5th gen fighter so no need. remember oman ordered the typhoons in 2012 and are getting them in 2017 and that was when they needed orders and kuwait has ordered them recently so there is a backlog


May be we get some aircraft that Oman and Kuwait have ordered or some that KSA has ordered. May be KSA also requests a production line to be provided from where these orders can be delivered at a faster pace. By the way what is the production capabilities of EFT in Spain, German and Italy because they have taken all the deliveries of their aircraft. UK is still in the process of getting some more EFT's but that would also stop once the F-35s start entering.



waz said:


> Fifth generation jets will be a very small number and inducted slowly. The Typhoon will be just as important then. You're right about Oman.
> Oh well, we will just have to wait and see. It would be great for us, if Pakistan does pick the jet.


Lets wait and see..



Beethoven said:


> Its a win win situation isnt it.....purchase of Typhoons may open up other avenues of co operation like Aesa for thunders and who knows we may opt for EJ 200 for JF 17s to maintain engine commonality of our fleet


Please read above.



Abingdonboy said:


> - Mirage 2000-9:
> https://defence.pk/threads/open-deb...for-paf-aye-or-nay.293790/page-8#post-5150536
> 
> -Rafale is a non-starter because of India
> 
> -MiG-35- Same as above
> 
> -Su-35- Same as above
> 
> 
> The EFT is probably the only non-Chinese/American MMRCA that the PAF could conceivebly get at this point.


Pls read above...Your Mahan Indian charms would not work every time...



dadeechi said:


> That would be a masterstroke.


Indeed...



dadeechi said:


> Also historically both UK & Italy have been closer to Pakistan.


Are you sure. UK was very confident in India hence sold most of its equipment but then India went after the Russia. This was indeed a very well planed strategy by UK to ask India to procure the best Russian equipment and then the British would acquire all the knowledge through the Indians. 

The Indian lost many British aircraft in all their Wars and BBC was forced to air news that the British equipment had failed which was a very big shock to the British public. This indicated that the Indians were not true to what they have said and this was the reason slowly the British decided to sell their products to India. 

The Italian were also providing many things to India but then the issues regarding the Marines, Blacklisting of their companies and then the issue with their Ambassador would definitely sour relations. All this is is due to India's doing that they are getting close to Pakistan. 

Guess what Pakistan has after all gained 2 friends...where is the Indian impression Pakistan has no friends other than China....



Zarvan said:


> Dam where are those people who were making fun of me all the time ???? Yes we are buying and most probably they are SU-35.
> 
> @Arsalan @waz


You were stating stuff far to early...

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## Maj.Osmani

Viper0011. said:


> Were you with him? Read us that story, while I go do more important things in life


I am with reality...cheers live in dreams good for you.


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## Viper0011.

Maj.Osmani said:


> I am with reality...cheers live in dreams good for you.



I've been on here for about 5 years I think. I've yet to post something that wasn't true!! Now if they end up buying 10 jets vs. 40 or 20, that's not my issue. I am just speaking about the reality of these discussions. Not how many they'll buy.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> $50BN in defence sales over the next 10 years could be $75BN in the following 10 years or $10BN depending on the Indo-Russian relations going foreward, there is a lot at stake for both sides and



The stakes are only decreasing with India only buying systems others are unwilling to give her or maintain its massive Arsenal of soviet/Russian inventory it already has.





> frankly most nations will not put their relations with an emerging global giant for........Pakistan. Geopolitical realities will see to that.


And somehow Pak only of the worlds largest consumer markets and one of the next 11 isn't profession economically ? Nor will it come out of the crisis (which it already is coming out of)... Geopolitics already has propelled us forwards in the past aswell as the present .. You believe it or not doesn't matter..:
The same Russians who wouldn't sell even a rifle to Pak are today selling Gunships, offering SAMs and conducting joint military exercises with us apart from investing in steel mills and other infra not to forget encouraging us to join SCO.


> Leaving all of this talk about abstract concepts such as geopolitics and "influence" to one side, the most rudimentary question is that of cost. If the PAF is unable/unwilling to pay full price for some F-16 Blk.52s, will they be willing to pay full price for some SU-35s? The Russians aren't going to offer any discounts or exotic financing options.



Sure sure .. Here is some news to you kid.. There is a difference between not willing and unable ..: meanwhile Pak is "unwillingly" to pay 420 mill ... It's buying Corvettes,sub upgrades and new gunships,new top tier service rifles .. Apart from other big ticket purchases ... So deal with it.

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## dadeechi

On the NSG thread @Talwar e Pakistan has implied that Pakistan is joining Turkey in the war.

If this is true then there are high chances that Pakistan is going to go for the Eurofighters instead of SU-35s.

Saudi Arabia may finance the deal too.

If Pakistan procures Eurofighter, Indian RAFALEs would be DOA.


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## Blue Marlin

Muhammad Omar said:


> in Typhoon


nothing more that a goodwill gesture. dont go looking to deep into it your head will hurt


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## Muhammad Omar

Blue Marlin said:


> nothing more that a goodwill gesture. dont go looking to deep into it your head will hurt



i Know it was a good will gesture the Typhoon Gave him a good ride


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## Ultima Thule

Benign Persona said:


> so what?
> you need to study a little, china and russia are running projects worth 100bn dollers. still russia sell arms to vietnam who has desputes with china, why?


Because India isn't China India is always cry to the world that not sell their topnotch weapons to Pakistan and your logic is inaccurate Mr, in the front of Chinese military might Vietnam military is nothing

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## Blue Marlin

Muhammad Omar said:


> i Know it was a good will gesture the Typhoon Gave him a good ride


and thats it. a good ride


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.



so we have Russians, Europeans options
when it comes to europeans we
this would mean atleast 7 billion dollars if its European typhoon, if its Gripen than its stupid.
unless having an arrangement with third country this is unrealistic

besides the above two, there is no thrid type of non chinese non american aircarft


dsr478 said:


> Yes we will, but the only European plane we can get is the Gripen.


why get gripen, better to buy electronics for thunder from third party option , otherwise they are identical in size and performance

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Viper0011. said:


> Some of the stuff is strange. On a couple of Russian jets, he says they can "take down the Euro fighter before it can see the Russian jet". Which means the Russian jet in question is more advanced (he said this for SU-35, PAk-FA and on one more design). But then he gets to the EFT and says its the only fighter which has a chance to fight the F-22 (which means it is the most advanced one behind the F-22 in electronic warfare, but then, he had already put the EFT down in front of multiple Russian platforms). So it doesn't make sense as the speaker wasn't clear.
> 
> In terms of reality, the EFT, SU-35 and PAK-FA would be in the same class. Some slightly more stealthier than the other, but all of them behind Raptor's league.


If you closely listen to what he is saying when talking about the Mig-35 is that Mig-35 has certain features that make it a good electronic warfare aircraft. But then he says that it would be far more capable if a EFT kind of suit is procured. This would indicate that he is saying that though the Russian aircraft design is good it can be further improved by having a western systems and ew package. 

SU-35 has sami stealth features hence it is harder for the EFT to pick up returns early. With a decent BVRAAM SU-35 can shoot down the EFT before than the other can even acquire a radar signature.

Same is the case for T-50 Pak Fa. The F-22 is not that good in close combat hence the EFT and Rafale along with F-15 , F-16 and F-18's all have kills attributed to them. Where as SU-35 and T- 50 PAK FA are both good in dog fight hence it would be difficult to acquire lock on. 

If you remember the Indian claim of 14-0 against EFT with their Su-30MKI's which was rebutted as rubbish by RAF pilots.

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## Ultima Thule

Maj.Osmani said:


> I am with reality...cheers live in dreams good for you.


No you are not, you live in fairy tales


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## Benign Persona

pakistanipower said:


> Because India isn't China India is always cry to the world that not sell their topnotch weapons to Pakistan and your logic is inaccurate Mr, in the front of Chinese military might Vietnam military is nothing


have a good day dude.


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## C130

you wouldn't pay the full price for 8 F-16s for $700 million

but now you all think Pakistan is capable of buying 40 Eurofighter Typhoons that cost even more than the F-16 and then you would have to buy new missiles for it like Iris-T and Meteor, the $$$$ just keeps rising.


I had no idea Pakistan has gulf country money.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

C130 said:


> you wouldn't pay the full price for 8 F-16s for $700 million
> 
> but now you all think Pakistan is capable of buying 40 Eurofighter Typhoons that cost even more than the F-16 and then you would have to buy new missiles for it like Iris-T and Meteor, the $$$$ just keeps rising.
> 
> 
> I had no idea Pakistan has gulf country money.




Well f16 were over priced (hyped up price tag)

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## dadeechi

C130 said:


> you wouldn't pay the full price for 8 F-16s for $700 million
> 
> but now you all think Pakistan is capable of buying 40 Eurofighter Typhoons that cost even more than the F-16 and then you would have to buy new missiles for it like Iris-T and Meteor, the $$$$ just keeps rising.
> 
> 
> I had no idea Pakistan has gulf country money.



Pakistan did not buy 8 F-16s not that it cannot pay but it did not wanted to as the Pakistan-US relations were going down the drain since Pakistan decided to partner with China.

If Pakistan joins the war in Syria along side Turkey & Saudi Arabia(SA), Eurofighter is very much possible with SA chipping in to finance the deal else Russia would be happy to sell its SU-35s or MIG-35s to Pakistan.

Pakistan just need to decide which way they want to go.

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## C130

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well f16 were over priced (hyped up price tag)


$90 million isn't over priced. that's the price everyone pays.


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## mingle

C130 said:


> $90 million isn't over priced. that's the price everyone pays.


It was only good if US pay for it .

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## C130

dadeechi said:


> Pakistan did not buy 8 F-16s not that it cannot pay but it did not wanted to as the Pakistan-US were going down the drain since Pakistan decided to partner with China.
> 
> If Pakistan joins the war in Syria along side Turkey & Saudi Arabia(SA), Eurofighter is very much possible with SA chipping in to finance the deal else Russia would be happy to sell its SU-35s or MIG-35s to Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan just need to decide which way they want to go.




Pakistan said NO to joining KSA crusade in Yemen ,but you think they will join the crusade against Syria 

Pakistan snubbed KSA.



mingle said:


> It was only good if US pay for it .




umm hmm, now they can buy Mig-35 or Su-35

problem solved.

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## Ankit Kumar

I hope its GripenE/F...
It will save us from their daily lobbying.

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## baqai

i think it would be russian plane, keeping the changing geo politicial scenario in mind, and no i don't think India has that much grip on the situation anymore, they can pull more strings in USA now than in Russia

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## Benign Persona

C130 said:


> Pakistan snubbed KSA.


we snubbed KSA because we are cleaning your mess you created in the 80s, 90s against USSR.


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## dadeechi

Ankit Kumar said:


> I hope its GripenE/F...
> It will save us from their daily lobbying.



Chances of Gripen for Pakistan are almost zero.

It would be either Eurofighter or SU-35 or MIG-35

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## Ankit Kumar

dadeechi said:


> Chances of Gripen for Pakistan are almost zero.
> 
> It would be either Eurofighter or SU-35 or MIG-35



Considering PAFs love for F16s and their economics ( which cannot be said to be the best at present ) , its Gripen which suits the situation. Further guess how did the crashed SAAB AEW got repaired... not without SAAB you see.

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## ziaulislam

C130 said:


> $90 million isn't over priced. that's the price everyone pays.


 why pay full price fo an aircraft for which we are not getting advance weapons like aim 9x and aim120D. we
USA wants pakistan to use them only against TTp

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## DESERT FIGHTER

dadeechi said:


> $85 million a piece



8 F-16s for 700+ million $ that's 87.5 million for 1 X F-16...



Ankit Kumar said:


> Considering PAFs love for F16s and their economics ( which cannot be said to be the best at present ) , its Gripen which suits the situation. Further guess how did the crashed SAAB AEW got repaired... not without SAAB you see.



There is no use of Gripen when we have an comparable homegrown fighter JF-17..Gripen would have been a choice had we not had the JF project...

It brings nothing new to the table.



C130 said:


> you wouldn't pay the full price for 8 F-16s for $700 million



Why should we .. 




> but now you all think Pakistan is capable of buying 40 Eurofighter Typhoons that cost even more than the F-16 and then you would have to buy new missiles for it like Iris-T and Meteor, the $$$$ just keeps rising.
> 
> 
> I had no idea Pakistan has gulf country money.



40 typhoons aren't a choice unless our oil rich buddies from the gulf are paying which is unlikely due to various factors including us not jumping in their useless war unlike Egypt and KSA funding her purchases...

But even than buying fighters typhoons or SUs in limited batches -- buying a squadron each year wouldn't be a big deal... From the over 5 billion acquisition budget .. 1 billion or more per year wouldn't be a big issue.

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## Tipu7

Hi

Money is there, but also the choice.

Pakistan want to raise 4 Squadrons of Sharp edge aircrafts. 2 of XYZ, 2 of Blk52.

One Blk52 squadron is already here, so it was logical to go for one more. USA is old friend after all. But PAF didn't want to spend huge money on F16 as it might compromise Jf17 & XYZ deal. Americans knew it, so made the offer to split order of Blk52 into two portion. First portion of 8 aircraft was supposed to be funded by Military funds (60%) while rest (40%) was supposed to be provided by PAF. Rest 10 aircrafts was entirely a PAF money thing.

But Congress butt in, they blocked the funding of F16. Now it was PAF to decide either buy entire 18 Blk52 from its own money, or to look towards XYZ option.

If you are buying a squadron of 4+ Generation aircraft for 85 Million $ per piece, then isn't it better to add some more money and buy a squadron of 4++ Generation aircraft instead with 95 Million $ a piece?

PAF did the same. Money is there, but question of buying capability is more important. Blk 52 is awesome aircraft, but if you know that you will not be armed with AIM9X, Tiger Eye pod, anti radiation missiles, AESA and stand off weaponry, then will you buy it still when another better option is available with slightly more price???

An air force of 12 Squadrons of Jf17, 5 Squadrons of F16 and 3 Squadrons of 4++ Generation aircraft is indeed worth a shot......
And this is what PAF will be by end of 2019.



C130 said:


> you wouldn't pay the full price for 8 F-16s for $700 million
> 
> but now you all think Pakistan is capable of buying 40 Eurofighter Typhoons that cost even more than the F-16 and then you would have to buy new missiles for it like Iris-T and Meteor, the $$$$ just keeps rising.
> 
> 
> I had no idea Pakistan has gulf country money.



If mentioned "rumor" is correct then it's not a purchase of 2nd hand aircraft....... thus not upgraded M2K9.

Plus it was mentioned before that PAF is looking towards France and Russia for jets, then it's role out possibility of Eurofghter.

Moreover, since we are not buying French avionics and sub systems for Jf17 now, then I do believe that Rafale is already out of picture as number of jets are high. And Rafale is expensive aircraft.

This leave Mig35 & Su35 behind .........
Mig35 share similarities with Jf17 and also house RD33MK engine which we are looking to add in Jf17. A big plus point.
But Su35 too is in picture, as PAF discussed it with Russians from start and they were forcing us to buy two squadrons of Su24 as step gap before jumping to Su35 directly. This was rejected by Pakistan. Month later a news circulated in Vautnam defense sites that Pakistan is buying 6 Su35 for 500 Million$.
So many things are out there .......


DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 8 F-16s for 700+ million $ that's 87.5 million for 1 X F-16...
> 
> 
> 
> There is no use of Gripen when we have an comparable homegrown fighter JF-17..Gripen would have been a choice had we not had the JF project...
> 
> It brings nothing new to the table.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should we ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 40 typhoons aren't a choice unless our oil rich buddies from the gulf are paying which is unlikely due to various factors including us not jumping in their useless war unlike Egypt and KSA funding her purchases...
> 
> But even than buying fighters typhoons or SUs in limited batches -- buying a squadron each year wouldn't be a big deal... From the over 5 billion acquisition budget .. 1 billion or more per year wouldn't be a big issue.





Ankit Kumar said:


> Considering PAFs love for F16s and their economics ( which cannot be said to be the best at present ) , its Gripen which suits the situation. Further guess how did the crashed SAAB AEW got repaired... not without SAAB you see.


No Gripen ........

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## Major Sam

Tipu7 said:


> Hi
> 
> Money is there, but also the choice.
> 
> Pakistan want to raise 4 Squadrons of Sharp edge aircrafts. 2 of XYZ, 2 of Blk52.
> 
> One Blk52 squadron is already here, so it was logical to go for one more. USA is old friend after all. But PAF didn't want to spend huge money on F16 as it might compromise Jf17 & XYZ deal. Americans knew it, so made the offer to split order of Blk52 into two portion. First portion of 8 aircraft was supposed to be funded by Military funds (60%) while rest (40%) was supposed to be provided by PAF. Rest 10 aircrafts was entirely a PAF money thing.
> 
> But Congress butt in, they blocked the funding of F16. Now it was PAF to decide either buy entire 18 Blk52 from its own money, or to look towards XYZ option.
> 
> If you are buying a squadron of 4+ Generation aircraft for 85 Million $ per piece, then isn't it better to add some more money and buy a squadron of 4++ Generation aircraft instead with 95 Million $ a piece?
> 
> PAF did the same. Money is there, but question of buying capability is more important. Blk 52 is awesome aircraft, but if you know that you will not be armed with AIM9X, Tiger Eye pod, anti radiation missiles, AESA and stand off weaponry, then will you buy it still when another better option is available with slightly more price???
> 
> An air force of 12 Squadrons of Jf17, 5 Squadrons of F16 and 3 Squadrons of 4++ Generation aircraft is indeed worth a shot......
> And this is what PAF will be by end of 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> If mentioned "rumor" is correct then it's not a purchase of 2nd hand aircraft....... thus not upgraded M2K9.
> 
> Plus it was mentioned before that PAF is looking towards France and Russia for jets, then it's role out possibility of Eurofghter.
> 
> Moreover, since we are not buying French avionics and sub systems for Jf17 now, then I do believe that Rafale is already out of picture as number of jets are high. And Rafale is expensive aircraft.
> 
> This leave Mig35 & Su35 behind .........
> Mig35 share similarities with Jf17 and also house RD33MK engine which we are looking to add in Jf17. A big plus point.
> But Su35 too is in picture, as PAF discussed it with Russians from start and they were forcing us to buy two squadrons of Su24 as step gap before jumping to Su35 directly. This was rejected by Pakistan. Month later a news circulated in Vautnam defense sites that Pakistan is buying 6 Su35 for 500 Million$.
> So many things are out there .......
> 
> 
> 
> No Gripen ........



Btw H-Khan didnt rule out china. what he said was it will not be FC31, j-20 or j-10.

there are chances for J-16 also as his wording was

J-16 = F15E

may b on lease.

@ACE OF THE AIR @Zarvan @MastanKhan @Oscar @DESERT FIGHTER

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

C130 said:


> $90 million isn't over priced. that's the price everyone pays.


Not worth more then 3 million its a 1980's plane with new paint job
76 Million was for none sense , service done at US plant waste of money we have all the people who do same servicing locally


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## My-Analogous

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.


This one






or more advance




this one?



Centurion2016 said:


> Euro Fighter Typhoon was designed fromm the outset to be the best fighter in nhe world to tackle the Flankers and mig29S
> 
> many experts claim in pure air superiority role the Typhoon is second only to F22 raptor even today.
> 
> 40 meteore equipped Typhoons would give even 100 flankers a nightmare.
> 
> PAF need to find a way to pay $8 billion to buy them.
> 
> Saudi can help you.



Mate we are not is bad shape to pay these amount and in past we paid 5.1 Billion dollar deal to US for our 18 F16 + up gradation of F16 to block 50 standards and our whole fleet is now block 50 standard and the year was 2006 (10 years).


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## Tipu7

Major Sam said:


> Btw H-Khan didnt rule out china. what he said was it will not be FC31, j-20 or j-10.
> 
> there are chances for J-16 also as his wording was
> 
> J-16 = F15E
> 
> may b on lease.
> 
> @ACE OF THE AIR @Zarvan @MastanKhan @Oscar @DESERT FIGHTER



No, No Chinese aircraft. 
Chinese role in PAF is limited to Jf17 & AWACS now.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Not worth more then 3 million its a 1980's plane with new paint job



Look at Corolla of 80, and look at Corolla of now.
Entirely new car.
Same is Case of F16.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well F16 is no means a plane worth more then 3-4 Million dollars since world has moved forward with better larger more capable planes

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## WaLeEdK2

Pakistan has its eye on the Russians. The Mig-35 along with some SU-35s should do wonders for PAF.

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## Manticore

war&peace said:


> He said neither Chinese nor American and J-10 is Chinese aircraft and that's not highend by any means...bigger than JF-17 but not really high end, It can either be EF, SU-35 or Mirage 2009


Where did he say neither j16? 
*Below is HKhan's post which spawned this thread*

''
As per AHQ, PAF is looking procure 40 high-end fighter aircraft very soon. Since the C/D deal fell through they are going to plan B with buying used or even stored Block15~32.

These 40 will not be J-31/FC-31 or J-20 but some other aircrafts
J-10 is out of the game so far. Its engine is a huge problem and PAF is very much aware of it.
''

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## war&peace

Manticore said:


> Where did he say neither j16?
> 
> ''
> As per AHQ, PAF is looking procure 40 high-end fighter aircraft very soon. Since the C/D deal fell through they are going to plan B with buying used or even stored Block15~32.
> 
> 
> 
> These 40 will not be J-31/FC-31 or J-20 but some other aircrafts
> ''


 I'm talking about J-10 which he mentioned and even J-16 is also Chinese and as per OP....neither Chinese nor American.


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## Zarvan

Manticore said:


> Where did he say neither j16?
> 
> ''
> As per AHQ, PAF is looking procure 40 high-end fighter aircraft very soon. Since the C/D deal fell through they are going to plan B with buying used or even stored Block15~32.
> 
> 
> 
> These 40 will not be J-31/FC-31 or J-20 but some other aircrafts
> ''


Fighter Jets are definitely SU-35

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## DESERT FIGHTER

My-Analogous said:


> This one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or more advance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this one?
> 
> 
> 
> Mate we are not is bad shape to pay these amount and in past we paid 5.1 Billion dollar deal to US for our 18 F16 + up gradation of F16 to block 50 standards and our whole fleet is now block 50 standard and the year was 2006 (10 years).


Block 52+ not 50.



Manticore said:


> Where did he say neither j16?
> 
> ''
> As per AHQ, PAF is looking procure 40 high-end fighter aircraft very soon. Since the C/D deal fell through they are going to plan B with buying used or even stored Block15~32.
> 
> 
> 
> These 40 will not be J-31/FC-31 or J-20 but some other aircrafts
> ''



Most likely ? Your opinion ?



Manticore said:


> Where did he say neither j16?
> 
> ''
> As per AHQ, PAF is looking procure 40 high-end fighter aircraft very soon. Since the C/D deal fell through they are going to plan B with buying used or even stored Block15~32.
> 
> 
> 
> These 40 will not be J-31/FC-31 or J-20 but some other aircrafts
> ''



Most likely J-16? J-10Bs or Russian ?


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## Manticore

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Block 52+ not 50.
> 
> 
> 
> Most likely ? Your opinion ?
> 
> 
> 
> Most likely J-16? J-10Bs or Russian ?


Do you think pak's foreign ministry is capable of dealing with ALL the countries of eurofighter consortium ? I think J16 is the easy way out particularly on lease

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## MastanKhan

Major Sam said:


> Btw H-Khan didnt rule out china. what he said was it will not be FC31, j-20 or j-10.
> 
> there are chances for J-16 also as his wording was
> 
> J-16 = F15E
> 
> may b on lease.
> 
> @ACE OF THE AIR @Zarvan @MastanKhan @Oscar @DESERT FIGHTER



Hi,

Of all the available aircraft---I would rather have the J16---because I already know where the JF17 BLK 3 is headed.



C130 said:


> you wouldn't pay the full price for 8 F-16s for $700 million
> 
> but now you all think Pakistan is capable of buying 40 Eurofighter Typhoons that cost even more than the F-16 and then you would have to buy new missiles for it like Iris-T and Meteor, the $$$$ just keeps rising.
> 
> 
> I had no idea Pakistan has gulf country money.



Hi,

I guess you would have read by now that he 90 mil dollars F16 for pakistan cannot use the most advanced U S weapons---like the aim120D or the aim9X and other newer munitions---.

So---it is not worth spending that kind of money on new F16's.

At 270 mil for 8 aircraft and rest thru u s funds---it was worth it.

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## litman

airmarshal said:


> Who is Haris Khan and what makes him so credible?


a fictitious character with no credibility

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## zebra7

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.



If the news if true, and I have to guess, than its MIG-35, with zhuk Aesa radar and the best option for Pakistan. Stick to the Original.

J-16 could not sold to Pakistan due to IPR problem.


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## CHI RULES

Imran Khan said:


> i don't think so sir . no any new fighter and why we spend a huge portion of money on it? its not the time for buying anything fleet is working well and after 5 to 10 years we will have now new jets .its just another f-10 and su-35 type hypo


Sir still now PAF though has high mrale yet lacks high end fighter jets even without considering Rafaels. Most of Indian existing fleet has gone through up gradation with long range PESA radars with capability to guide Missiles on many targets at once, IRSTs and EW suits.Meanwhile PAF majority jets are of vintage nature except 76 F16s and 62 JF17s.

To me no capable fighter/bomber is their which can penetrate enemy Air defenses and destroy ground targets. Our Mirage 5s are not capable in new scenario..


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## PaklovesTurkiye

dadeechi said:


> One can draw an analogy between Indo-Pak and China-Vietnam scenarios and Russia does business with all of them.
> 
> How is Russia selling to Vietnam when it has such large deals with China (which India apparently claims as the reason to diversify to the West)?



This literally got me up. Excellent counter argument i have seen so far against hype of Russo-India nexus.

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## tarrar

I believe SU35, Raffles & EU Fighter are on the table, but lets wait & see on who wins the race.


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## The SC

"We'll be buying, French and/or Russian aircrafts"





Rafale





MIG-35





SU-35





Eurofighter Typhoon


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## Centurion2016

I don't want to upset you guys 

Pakistan could not scrape 600million dollars to buy 8 brand new block 52.s from USA when they stopped Grant aid last week.

Even the block 52 that paf have and the mlu programme has been partly funded by USA aid in pretext of wot support by USA. 

Typhoons where designed to smash flankets over NATO skies.Brilliant brilliant war plane.

I would be astonished if Pakistan found the resources to buy this amazing fighters.

Your neighbour is struggling to find enough money to buy 36 rafales. 

And may end up buying much cheaper block v f16 from USA at half price of rafale .

If you need to check mate the flankefs mki then typhoons are the dream.ticket. 

Let's hope this thread is not another like the hundreds of others opened monthly on pak New fighters orders

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## OrionHunter

mingle said:


> My Guess is EF 2000


OP says 40 new aircraft. Your guess is EF 2000? Let's do the math.

Each EF costs $100 million or Rs 1000 crores PKR. 40 would cost you $4 billion or Rs 40,000 crores! Add to that infrastructure and weapons. Add another Rs10,000 crores. Total - Rs 50,000 crores! That's a lot of dosh! Will you be able to afford them?  It's slightly less than your entire defence budget!

Now add to that the operating costs for Eurofighters that do fly have gone up to an average of $30,000 per flying hour. And that's one of the reasons why the IAF rejected them!


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## Mav3rick

I think it is LCA Tejas. This will not only provide PAF with a capable platform but also foster good relations with India. I have also heard that PAF and IAF are planning on working closely on 5th Gen fighters after successful conclusion of this deal.

The bad news in all this, for France, is that IAF in a reciprocal agreement has placed an order for 160 JF-17 Block 6 which are slated to be atleast 80% the performance of Rafale. 

Chalo, good news for both countries.

P.S. This has also paved the way for both India and Pakistan's inclusion in the NSG. This will be concluded in the next NSG meeting.

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## Muhammad Omar

OrionHunter said:


> OP says 40 new aircraft. Your guess is EF 2000? Let's do the math.
> 
> Each EF costs $100 million or Rs 1000 crores PKR. 40 would cost you $4 billion or Rs 40,000 crores! Add to that infrastructure and weapons. Add another Rs10,000 crores. Total - Rs 50,000 crores! That's a lot of dosh! Will you be able to afford them?  It's slightly less than your entire defence budget!



Lets do the math again 

Pakistan's Defence Procurement budget for 2016-17 is $5.5 Billion and $900 Million by US Coalition Support Fund (CSF) for Pakistan and the Congress Rejected the amendment to cut the CSF to $700 Million just a day ago.

40 Jets will Cost $6-7 Billion even if $100 Million per Plane these 40 planes will not come in a day but will take Few years to add up even if we Spare $1.5 Billion Every Year from the Procurement budget it'll take like 4-5 years to pay for these aircraft

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## Major Sam

Tipu7 said:


> No, No Chinese aircraft.
> Chinese role in PAF is limited to Jf17 & AWACS now.
> 
> 
> 
> Look at Corolla of 80, and look at Corolla of now.
> Entirely new car.
> Same is Case of F16.



Well the person OP is quoting he didnt mention any where that no Chinese aircraft.


----------



## danger007

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> This literally got me up. Excellent counter argument i have seen so far against hype of Russo-India nexus.




Vietnam is long standing ally of Russia... back 1950s to now... don't forget they have long relation with Vietnam... china moved closer to Russia afterwards... the point beside larger economic relationship with china.. Russians didn't ditched Vietnam....


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## Centurion2016

Warning 're russian fighters are very robust and some key aspects better than western fighters mainly agility twr load and range. And half the price.

But very maintenance intensive and half the flying hours life times .

Pakistanis are beginning to see this in their thunders already with a Labour intensive engine's.

The USA fighters now have massive sanctions threat USA is literally a ally of India ..so that's making relying on USA very dangerous in future for Pakistan.

This leaves Europe. Or China 

Europe you need to have massive pockets as India is finding out now with rafale..

Back to China I guess more thunders with chinease engine and possibly vanguards

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## Sulman Badshah

The Comment which I copied from a person in late 2015 also stated as same info

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## Major Sam

Sulman Badshah said:


> The Comment which I copied from a person in late 2015 also stated as same info
> 
> View attachment 311591



Great Post, these are the exact details i heard also.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Sulman Badshah said:


> The Comment which I copied from a person in late 2015 also stated as same info
> 
> View attachment 311591



Please go for EF 2000 Please


----------



## OrionHunter

Muhammad Omar said:


> Lets do the math again
> 
> Pakistan's Defence Procurement budget for 2016-17 is $5.5 Billion and $900 Million by US Coalition Support Fund (CSF) for Pakistan and the Congress Rejected the amendment to cut the CSF to $700 Million just a day ago.
> 
> 40 Jets will Cost $6-7 Billion even if $100 Million per Plane these 40 planes will not come in a day but will take Few years to add up even if we Spare $1.5 Billion Every Year from the Procurement budget it'll take like 4-5 years to pay for these aircraft


If that's the case why don't you go buy the EF 2000? What's stopping you if you say you can afford it?


----------



## Malik Alashter

Hi, How about J-10 don't you guys think this new purchase would be it?


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## Sulman Badshah

Muhammad Omar said:


> Please go for EF 2000 Please


bhai app to aisay keh rahe ho jese ma ne khareedna ha

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## Muhammad Omar

OrionHunter said:


> If that's the case why don't you go buy the EF 2000? What's stopping you if you say you can afford it?



Negotiations take time sir g  take an Example of Rafales 



Sulman Badshah said:


> bhai app to aisay keh rahe ho jese ma ne khareedna ha



That was for PAF

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## OrionHunter

Muhammad Omar said:


> Negotiations take time sir g  take an Example of Rafales
> 
> 
> 
> That was for PAF


Agreed bhai but the EF was never in contention in Pakistan. It was one of the more affordable Chinese aircraft like the J-11 or the J-31 for which you don't require to go through all the hellish procurement procedures. You need to just buy off the shelf!


----------



## GURU DUTT

ladies and gentelmen mark my words its gonna be the same type of Mig29 variants egypt just baught


----------



## Falcon26

Muhammad Omar said:


> Lets do the math again
> 
> Pakistan's Defence Procurement budget for 2016-17 is $5.5 Billion and $900 Million by US Coalition Support Fund (CSF) for Pakistan and the Congress Rejected the amendment to cut the CSF to $700 Million just a day ago.
> 
> 40 Jets will Cost $6-7 Billion even if $100 Million per Plane these 40 planes will not come in a day but will take Few years to add up even if we Spare $1.5 Billion Every Year from the Procurement budget it'll take like 4-5 years to pay for these aircraft



I think only $2 billion was earmarked for procurement this year


----------



## Assault Rifle

@Muhammad Omar

Actually Pakistan's defence procurement budget is a mere Rs. 211bn($ 2.05bn)



> Of the Rs860bn allocation, about Rs2bn would be spent on defence ministry establishment where the remaining Rs858bn would be distributed among the three services — Army, Air Force and Navy
> 
> The three services would spend Rs211bn on local purchases and import of arms and ammunition; Rs216bn on operational expenses; Rs327bn on salaries of soldiers and officers; and Rs104bn on maintenance of its buildings and construction of new ones..



http://www.dawn.com/news/1262657

So 40 EF-2000 will cost at least $7.5-8 billion thus nearly 4 times Pakistan's defence procurement budget including weapons, training and infrastructure

Similarly 40 Su-35 will cost atleast $4.5 billion including weapons, training and infrastructure.

Pakistan can only afford JH7 And J16


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Falcon26 said:


> I think only $2 billion was earmarked for procurement this year



Nope it's 5 sir


----------



## Sulman Badshah

Assault Rifle said:


> Actually Pakistan's defence procurement budget is a mere Rs. 211bn($ 2.05bn)
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1262657
> 
> So 40 EF-2000 will cost at least $7.5-8 billion thus nearly 4 times Pakistan's defence procurement budget including weapons, training and infrastructure
> 
> Similarly 40 Su-35 will cost atleast $4.5 billion including weapons, training and infrastructure.
> 
> Pakistan can only afford JH7 And J16


aircrafts never been procured in single payment .. Pakistan usually purchase things on installment


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Assault Rifle said:


> @Muhammad Omar
> 
> Actually Pakistan's defence procurement budget is a mere Rs. 211bn($ 2.05bn)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1262657
> 
> So 40 EF-2000 will cost at least $7.5-8 billion thus nearly 4 times Pakistan's defence procurement budget including weapons, training and infrastructure
> 
> Similarly 40 Su-35 will cost atleast $4.5 billion including weapons, training and infrastructure.
> 
> Pakistan can only afford JH7 And J16



Pakistan Navy Signed $5 Billion Deal of 8 Submarines From China you guys said the same about that too... you don't have to pay full payment in just 1 year


ISLAMABAD: The federal cabinet on Monday approved a deficit budget of Rs4.42 trillion which, like proposals in previous years, lacks major policy initiatives to put the country on the path to sustainable economic growth.

The proposals appear to strike a balance between fiscal consolidation, imposed by the International Monetary Fund, and some incentives for the industrial sector. It was approved by the cabinet during a meeting which was presided over by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif via video link from the Pakistan High Commission in London, a first in the country’s history.

Rs1.67 trillion development budget approved

The government expects tax revenues to climb to Rs3.635 trillion, a new historical level, thanks to heavy indirect taxation.

To boost earnings for next year, the budget proposes Rs170 billion in new taxes which will largely overburden existing taxpayers.

Further, the government is proposing to increase defence spending by over one-tenth to Rs860 billion, up by Rs79 billion from last year.

The federal cabinet has also approved measures to further limit tax-free cash withdrawals from banks by linking the Rs50,000 limit to one identity card against the current practice of unlimited banks accounts.

Other measures approved will see tax hikes on a string of consumer items. The super tax has also been extended for another year.

Tax reliefs, albeit for select sectors, include lower rates for Pakistan Cricket Board. Tax benefits will also be extended for industrialists.

While Nawaz specially asked for a special package for farmers including substantial subsidy on urea, budgetary proposal for abolishing sales tax on pesticides has been approved.

Rs1.7t development budget proposed for upcoming fiscal

After the federal cabinet’s approval, Finance Minister Ishaq Dar will present the budget in the National Assembly on Friday.

Expenditure

The total estimated size of federal expenditures is over Rs4.42 trillion, around 8% higher than last year’s budget of Rs4.1 trillion. The government will borrow Rs1.6 trillion, 4.8% of Pakistan’s gross domestic product (GDP), to run the country.

Despite the large deficit, the four provinces are expected to save about Rs335 billion or 1% of GDP from their incomes. This will bring down the national budget gap to Rs1.28 trillion or 3.8% of GDP. This is in line with targets set by the IMF for fiscal year 2016-17, including a special waiver of 0.3% due to one-off spending of Rs100 billion on Temporarily Displaced Persons (TDPs).

Listing expenditures at Rs3.4 trillion, the federal cabinet has decided to maintain subsidies for the incoming fiscal year at Rs169 billion.

With local government elections being held late last year, the cabinet has increased the budget of running the government by 6.8% to Rs348 billion.

*The government has set aside Rs245 billion to pay pensions, to military and civilians. However, a major chunk worth Rs542 billion has been allocated as ‘grants’, which usually is provided to the military for defense procurements.*

Taxation

The government has proposed to remove limitations on taxing unexplained assets of non-filers while transactions up to year 2002 can be investigated.

The cabinet approved advance tax on Alternate Corporate Tax. It also approved a proposal to levy 1% minimum tax on companies that are declaring gross losses.

Pakistan’s development budget to undergo Rs402 billion cut

It approved to increase dividend income tax rate to 20% for non-filers of income tax returns against the existing rates of 17.5%. It also approved 3% withholding tax on cars leased by banks and such companies. Raising taxes on consumer items, the government is proposing to increase federal excise duty on cigarettes from Rs3,030 per thousand sticks to Rs4,500 for cigarettes with printed sales price of over Rs3,350. Those with sales price below Rs3,350, federal excise duty rates have been raised from Rs1,320 to Rs2,000.

The cabinet has approved 10% sales tax on meat, poultry. The poultry and animal feed to be charged 5% sales tax. A 17% tax is approved on soya bean meal, sunflower seed.



http://tribune.com.pk/story/1113256/cabinet-green-lights-rs4-42tr-deficit-budget/

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## Assault Rifle

Even if Pakistan's pays the total cost in 5 years through instalments it would cost $1bn-$1.5bn a year which would be around half of Pakistan's annu defence procurement budget.Remember Pakistan has to spend on other programs of PAF, PN and PA too


----------



## ziaulislam

Assault Rifle said:


> @Muhammad Omar
> 
> Actually Pakistan's defence procurement budget is a mere Rs. 211bn($ 2.05bn)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1262657
> 
> So 40 EF-2000 will cost at least $7.5-8 billion thus nearly 4 times Pakistan's defence procurement budget including weapons, training and infrastructure
> 
> Similarly 40 Su-35 will cost atleast $4.5 billion including weapons, training and infrastructure.
> 
> Pakistan can only afford JH7 And J16





Muhammad Omar said:


> Nope it's 5 sir


both of you are wrong, strategic govt to govt procurement are often not included in any budget books.
this has been the case in 90s

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## Muhammad Omar

Assault Rifle said:


> Even if Pakistan's pays the total cost in 5 years through instalments it would cost $1bn-$1.5bn a year which would be around half of Pakistan's annu defence procurement budget.Remember Pakistan has to spend on other programs of PAF, PN and PA too



The government has set aside Rs245 billion to pay pensions, to military and civilians. However, a major chunk worth Rs542 billion has been allocated as ‘grants’, which usually is provided to the military for defense procurements.

It's $5.4 Billion

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## Assault Rifle

@Muhammad Omar The Rs542bn grants also include salary expenses of Rs327bn.Only a mere Rs211bn is for procurement expenses

Also the submarine were only feasible because of soft financing by China.Russia and Europe will never provide soft financing to Pakistan.

Also Pakistan is taking a long Time to get just 4 Mi-35 deal from Russia.Few Days back Rostec CEO Sergei confirmed that negotiations for 4 Mi-35 which began in 2014 is still NOT over.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

ziaulislam said:


> both of you are wrong, strategic govt to govt procurement are often not included in any budget books.
> this has been the case in 90s



Where did say it's included in annual Budget but Tribune quoted the Procurement budget allocated For 2016-17 

The government has set aside Rs245 billion to pay pensions, to military and civilians. However, a major chunk worth Rs542 billion has been allocated as ‘grants’, which usually is provided to the military for defense procurements.



Assault Rifle said:


> @Muhammad Omar The Rs542bn grants also include salary expenses of Rs327bn.Only a mere Rs211bn is for procurement expenses
> 
> Also the submarine were only feasible because of soft financing by China.Russia and Europe will never provide soft financing to Pakistan.
> 
> Also Pakistan is taking a long Time to get just 4 Mi-35 deal from Russia.Few Days back Rostec CEO Sergei confirmed that negotiations for 4 Mi-35 which began in 2014 is still NOT over.



Sir Our Budget is $8.6 Billion or 860 Billion for 2016-17 

IF Rs327bn is for Pensions and salaries Expenses what about the rest???

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## Quwa

Assault Rifle said:


> @Muhammad Omar The Rs542bn grants also include salary expenses of Rs327bn.Only a mere Rs211bn is for procurement expenses
> 
> Also the submarine were only feasible because of soft financing by China.Russia and Europe will never provide soft financing to Pakistan.
> 
> Also Pakistan is taking a long Time to get just 4 Mi-35 deal from Russia.*Few Days back Rostec CEO Sergei confirmed that negotiations for 4 Mi-35 which began in 2014 is still NOT over*.


Funny ... because in 2015 that same guy told Sputnik News, "*We have signed* a contract with Pakistan for the Mi-35, deliveries will begin next year," Sergey Chemezov, Rostec general director, told RIA Novosti in Dubai (link)

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## Beny Karachun

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.


Which version of the F16?


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## 313baberali

National Assembly approved grants worth Rs 2,921,119,000 for Defence Production Division, Rs 41,148,525,000 for Planning and Development Division http://www.brecorder.com/pakistan/general-news/304064-na-approves-rs-1226trn-demands-for-grant.html


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## Wolf

No offense. But, can somebody paste a source after 14 pages where Harris khan has mentioned all this and that too recently . thanks


----------



## Assault Rifle

@Muhammad Omar
Sir, Rs860bn allocation, about Rs2bn would be spent on defence ministry establishment where the remaining Rs858bn would be distributed among the three services — Army, Air Force and Navy.
The three services would spend Rs211bn on local purchases and import of arms and ammunition; Rs216bn on operational expenses; Rs327bn on salaries of soldiers and officers; and Rs104bn on maintenance of its buildings, barracks and construction of new ones.


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## Djinn

LOL While we are speculating the hearsay, our Bhaarti friends are stressing over our financial matters. Oh yeah and their claims/analysis of India's "strategic pull over others especially Russia" are absolutely worth a read

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## Wolf

Can anybody share the latest source of Harris Khan claim. No offence.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

2005 Musharaf cancelled F16 deal due to lack of funds (earth quake ) and also plane being old
2006 Musharaf got things rolling in right direction
2007 Pakistan will get 40 Jets soon
2008 Pakistan will get J10B soon
2009 Pakistan J10 deal done arrive 2014 (Completed deal)
2010 Day dreaming
2011 Day dreaming
2012 Day dreaming
2013 J10b deal cancelled , nothing will arrive no account of $$$ spent
2014 No plane arrive , we get Old crap from Jordan
2015 New 8 F16 will arrive
2016 Order increased to 16 expected
2016 Wait Not arriving deal cancelled by mutual agreement
2016 Now wait we are getting another possible new plane order for 40 planes



*10 YEARS Went by with out a Modern Generation plane arriving *

Instead of our force inducting 36+ 30 more planes , to total of 66 planes , we are now discussing again , need for origional 40 planes to be purchased from mysterious source







Still recall the word of the Cheif who stated .... the J10B won't add anything new to our force while our pilots flying Older generation MIrage and F7

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## IceCold

C130 said:


> you wouldn't pay the full price for 8 F-16s for $700 million.



We wouldn't does not equate to we couldn't. Pakistan wanted US to honour original terms of agreement which the US did not thanks to Congress, so we decided to back out as well specially when this isnt the 90s anymore and Pakistan has other options.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

F16 is hyped up plane (Cost perspective) majority of cost is for service and putting screws into pannels and replacing parts , we need to cut the middle service man


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## volatile

Among all this discussion ,I think there is some thing going around in the background .
Just today i was thinking of Air Force role in today's world and it has surpassed Navy/Army by leaps and bound . Stronger Airforce means Aerial support for men on ground ,PAF if stronger can compliment PN very nicely with deep interdiction into territory and taking care of surface fleets .So some members are suggesting its a waste of time or money to induct newer platforms but they are not correct .

1. SU35 too many links and people are talking about ,Also Chinese 2 Billion US$ deal may be a clubbed deal with PAF as Chinese are getting 24 SU 35 for 2 Billion US$ just like SAAB deal with KSA volume discounts .There was already news by sputnik of possible order of 6 birds for 500 MilUS$ 

2. Euro Fighter I cant comment about it other than Italian connection we have these days .Italy is going to play a pivotal role if this deal goes thru .
3. Just to offset Indian already hanging deal may be French are willing to sell Rafale along with support package for F17 .
4. MIg 35 no body is discussing this but this might be a dark horse we are missing ,why MIG corporation is desperate to sell this new bird .MIG 35 can share same engine as on thunder  , Cost of operations is very less and MIG 29 UP is slightly different from MIG 35. So quite plausible . Egypt is also interested in MIG 35 and may be Ehlan Wasahalan is paying but when i say this we do buy our own stuff right mostly

So there are more then fewer things happening at background lets see .


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## New Resolve

J11D with Russian wink, all good, problem solved.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

C130 said:


> you wouldn't pay the full price for 8 F-16s for $700 million
> 
> but now you all think Pakistan is capable of buying 40 Eurofighter Typhoons that cost even more than the F-16 and then you would have to buy new missiles for it like Iris-T and Meteor, the $$$$ just keeps rising.
> 
> 
> I had no idea Pakistan has gulf country money.


Pakistan rejecting the F-16 and going for some other option is just like you going to get ice cream from the market.

If Walls stared to sell their ice cream for almost the same price as Haagen Dazs,. What would you do? You would go and buy Haagen Dazs because you know it is the worlds best. 

USA F-16s cost similar to EFT and the Russian SU-35's and it is also known that the F-35 also cost similar. This is the reason why F-35 is being preferred by many countries over the EFT. 

USA has not offered PAF the F-35 it has no other choice then to opt for the EFT, Rafale or the S-35. The news that came out is PAF is procuring 40 new aircraft but these do not include US or Chinese leave PAF with three options (assumed). Recently there were media reports that PAF is considering French and Russian options. There was an other news regarding people trying to make huge cut backs by getting involved with the Russians because they are expecting PAF to get SU-35. There were also other reports that the SU -35 deal is in final stages, as this deal was already going on for about 2 years. 



Major Sam said:


> Btw H-Khan didnt rule out china. what he said was it will not be FC31, j-20 or j-10.
> 
> there are chances for J-16 also as his wording was
> 
> J-16 = F15E
> 
> may b on lease.
> 
> @ACE OF THE AIR @Zarvan @MastanKhan @Oscar @DESERT FIGHTER


J-16 do not think would be coming to PAF till we have some other flanker from Russia. 



Manticore said:


> Where did he say neither j16?
> *Below is HKhan's post which spawned this thread*
> 
> ''
> As per AHQ, PAF is looking procure 40 high-end fighter aircraft very soon. Since the C/D deal fell through they are going to plan B with buying used or even stored Block15~32.
> 
> These 40 will not be J-31/FC-31 or J-20 but some other aircrafts
> J-10 is out of the game so far. Its engine is a huge problem and PAF is very much aware of it.
> ''


He never said that but we know PAF is not considering it because it is a copy of Russian lanker which can not to exported. Moreover the issue regarding engines is not resolved.



zebra7 said:


> If the news if true, and I have to guess, than its MIG-35, with zhuk Aesa radar and the best option for Pakistan. Stick to the Original.
> 
> J-16 could not sold to Pakistan due to IPR problem.


No Mig 35 it does not give any advantage over the Mig 29's that are upgraded. 



Centurion2016 said:


> I don't want to upset you guys
> 
> Pakistan could not scrape 600million dollars to buy 8 brand new block 52.s from USA when they stopped Grant aid last week.
> 
> Even the block 52 that paf have and the mlu programme has been partly funded by USA aid in pretext of wot support by USA.
> 
> Typhoons where designed to smash flankets over NATO skies.Brilliant brilliant war plane.
> 
> I would be astonished if Pakistan found the resources to buy this amazing fighters.
> 
> Your neighbour is struggling to find enough money to buy 36 rafales.
> 
> And may end up buying much cheaper block v f16 from USA at half price of rafale .
> 
> If you need to check mate the flankefs mki then typhoons are the dream.ticket.
> 
> Let's hope this thread is not another like the hundreds of others opened monthly on pak New fighters orders


What could be the most logical step is PAF going and procuring Rafales to replace its ageing Mirage 3/5. It could get the same electronic package for JF-17 bringing it right up to the 4.5 jet status. 

Now how are we going to PAY you have your answer by selling the JF-17's to Egypt to replace her ageing Russian Mig-21's. You might find it interesting that JF-17 B (Twin seat) has a French engine.




OrionHunter said:


> OP says 40 new aircraft. Your guess is EF 2000? Let's do the math.
> 
> Each EF costs $100 million or Rs 1000 crores PKR. 40 would cost you $4 billion or Rs 40,000 crores! Add to that infrastructure and weapons. Add another Rs10,000 crores. Total - Rs 50,000 crores! That's a lot of dosh! Will you be able to afford them?  It's slightly less than your entire defence budget!
> 
> Now add to that the operating costs for Eurofighters that do fly have gone up to an average of $30,000 per flying hour. And that's one of the reasons why the IAF rejected them!


The EFT and SU-35 both cost similar. 40 EFT = 4 billion = 48 SU-35.
Both include weapons training and infrastructure costs. KSA would finance this through sale of JF-17's to Egypt. It is also understood that this would be the initial order hence over the years they would be added till the time F-16 are due to be replaced by 5th generation aircraft. 

As we know the options for PAF would come some time in 2019-2021 with both Chinese and Turkish fighters PAF can afford to procure other 4.5++ fighter aircraft. 



Muhammad Omar said:


> Lets do the math again
> 
> Pakistan's Defence Procurement budget for 2016-17 is $5.5 Billion and $900 Million by US Coalition Support Fund (CSF) for Pakistan and the Congress Rejected the amendment to cut the CSF to $700 Million just a day ago.
> 
> 40 Jets will Cost $6-7 Billion even if $100 Million per Plane these 40 planes will not come in a day but will take Few years to add up even if we Spare $1.5 Billion Every Year from the Procurement budget it'll take like 4-5 years to pay for these aircraft


You have to realise that Pakistan is also going to sell some JF-17's as well as other products hence can afford some new aircraft as long as they can enhance the capabilities...



Djinn said:


> LOL While we are speculating the hearsay, our Bhaarti friends are stressing over our financial matters. Oh yeah and their claims/analysis of India's "strategic pull over others especially Russia" are absolutely worth a read


This is because they are obsessed with Pakistan

Some also try to understand why GOI is unable to function like Pakistan. They have not heard any thing regarding MMRCA for a very long time hence they are saying PAF would have the upper hand. All the projects GOI is trying are not even on the drawing boards so what is wrong with India... 

Pakistan on the other hand works on the principle when something has to be done it has to be done. It is about time PAF, PN join along with PA to get some new capabilities for deep strike, counter naval blockade along with good CAS capability.

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## Muhammad Omar

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> You have to realise that Pakistan is also going to sell some JF-17's as well as other products hence can afford some new aircraft as long as they can enhance the capabilities...



Yupe We are Getting $560 million from Myanmar and payment of 12 JF-17 from Nigeria   out of which we will get 58% share

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Here you would see what India is going through...


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## alimobin memon

its mirage 2000-9 that was my guess but I heard 2000-9 are being procured by argentina and at other side some other african country no idea. So its not mirage 2000-9 probably. But maybe its ef2000 or russian origin. nothing else seems to be there.


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## Benign Persona

OrionHunter said:


> OP says 40 new aircraft. Your guess is EF 2000? Let's do the math.
> 
> Each EF costs $100 million or Rs 1000 crores PKR. 40 would cost you $4 billion or Rs 40,000 crores! Add to that infrastructure and weapons. Add another Rs10,000 crores. Total - Rs 50,000 crores! That's a lot of dosh! Will you be able to afford them?  It's slightly less than your entire defence budget!
> 
> Now add to that the operating costs for Eurofighters that do fly have gone up to an average of $30,000 per flying hour. And that's one of the reasons why the IAF rejected them!


lets do the business typical baniya thinking. stop putting too much pressure on your small brain.


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## Muhammad Omar

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Here you would see what India is going through...



Gripen is a 5th Generation Jet?? or 4.5???


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## Baloch Pakistani

khail007 said:


> *Yesterday, a drone crashed near Mianwali, most of the members were taken aback*. '



What was type of that drone? I read it in news but there was no mentioning of the type of the drone.


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## Muhammad Omar

Baloch Pakistani said:


> What was type of that drone? I read it in news but there was no mentioning of the type of the drone.



Wing Loong WD-1

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## PaklovesTurkiye

danger007 said:


> Vietnam is long standing ally of Russia... back 1950s to now... don't forget they have long relation with Vietnam... china moved closer to Russia afterwards... the point beside larger economic relationship with china.. Russians didn't ditched Vietnam....



All i know is that if india can diversify its suppliers of weapons then Russia can also diversify their buyers.

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## Assault Rifle

Muhammad Omar said:


> Yupe We are Getting $560 million from Myanmar and payment of 12 JF-17 from Nigeria   out of which we will get 58% share


That $560 million figure includes cost of weapons, training , infrastructure as well cost of the manufacturing of the jets.The total profit for Pakistan from the 28 jets won't be more than $100-120 million.

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## Quwa

Assault Rifle said:


> That $560 million figure includes cost of weapons, training , infrastructure as well cost of the manufacturing of the jets.The total profit for Pakistan from the 28 jets won't be more than $100-120 million.


The profit matters, but a much bigger chunk of that money will also translate into work for Pakistanis, especially in terms of the long-term if maintenance and servicing contracts are secured. That said, however small or large the profit for PAC, I hope they put that money back into more developmental work. Whether that be improving the production facility or beginning to earnestly manufacture avionics or more of the airframe, it shouldn't go into imports.


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## Assault Rifle

The profit % from maintenance and servicing contracts is very low.Around 3-5% only.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Muhammad Omar said:


> Gripen is a 5th Generation Jet?? or 4.5???


They can not make up what they want...Ideal aircraft for India considering their state of affairs should be
Tejas- for numerical advantage
Gripen - Replacement of Mig -21
F-18 - For Replacement of Harrier and old Mig 29's and Jaguars along with the M2K's later on.

Note these there aircraft use the same Engine hence it would limit the expenses along with similar weapons and EW could have an integrated defence capabilities that would be very hard to over power.

SU-30 MKI to provide top cover and deep strike capabilities.

T-50 PAK-FA giving 5th Gen option. Top Cover and Deep Strike

AMCA to fill in the numbers advantage.

But unfortunately the Indians like to remain in the fools paradise of running around all the weapons providers and not find what they really want. They were trying to get knowledge buy paying but they did not consider it is now very difficult because of copy right and patents.

They would get some knowledge but that would take very long to develop domestically. 

This development from our Rival is playing to our advantage because all the options that were closed are opening one by one. Pakistan was able to get the French engines for JF-17B...Avionics were offered once again by France but PAF said we would like the latest and best ones not the basic ones. Rafale and EFT both are on offer and SU-35 which gives stealth coating,however this is also available with Chinese options.

The issue is if PAF would be smart enough to get some thing which would help them not just in developing the JF-17 but also improve the chances of getting other aircraft from manufacturers like Turkey, South Korea and Canada in the future.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

@Bilal Khan 777 any more great ideas, sir?


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## Quwa

Assault Rifle said:


> The profit % from maintenance and servicing contracts is very low.Around 3-5% only.


Profit is the money PAC gains, but the cost to Myanmar for production, parts and maintenance will translate into work for Pakistanis. It's a stimulus the government of Pakistan doesn't have to foot for.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Can anyone compare whose electronics/avionics are great? SU35 OR EF2000?


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## Blue Marlin

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Can anyone compare whose electronics/avionics are great? SU35 OR EF2000?


the typhoon is better comparison done...

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## danger007

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> All i know is that if india can diversify its suppliers of weapons then Russia can also diversify their buyers.




you guys comparing Vietnam, china relations to Russia/USSR with India and Pakistan to Russia... china is a friend to Russia but Vietnam from decades... so there is difference between Vietnam and Pakistan to the RUSSIA.. so the comparison is wrong... you have less or no chance to get offensive platforms from Russia... don't exaggerate pak-russia relations... India influence in Russia beyond pskistan capabilities...

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## waz

Zarvan said:


> Dam where are those people who were making fun of me all the time ???? Yes we are buying and most probably they are SU-35.
> 
> @Arsalan @waz



Trust me, no one made fun of you. Pakistan will not be getting the SU-35.

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## Zarvan

waz said:


> Trust me, no one made fun of you. Pakistan will not be getting the SU-35.


Trust me Pakistan is buying third 4.5th Generation Fighter and SU-35 from Russia and Euro Fighter from Italy are most easy option. If Russia decides to sell us SU-35 believe me India can't stop this deal


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## Maj.Osmani

Zarvan said:


> Dam where are those people who were making fun of me all the time ???? Yes we are buying and most probably they are SU-35.
> 
> @Arsalan @waz


I belive a mirror would help you to find out the person who is making fun of you.
Regards,
Ayna Delh k tujko yeh bole ay sanwarney waley...ab tu bemoat maryen gey tere chahney waley.



Zarvan said:


> Trust me Pakistan is buying third 4.5th Generation Fighter and SU-35 from Russia and Euro Fighter from Italy are most easy option. If Russia decides to sell us SU-35 believe me India can't stop this deal


Pakistan would wait for 10 years to invest heavily on 5th Gen fighter project probably a J.V with China or home production of J-31.

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## waz

Zarvan said:


> Trust me Pakistan is buying third 4.5th Generation Fighter and SU-35 from Russia and Euro Fighter from Italy are most easy option. If Russia decides to sell us SU-35 believe me India can't stop this deal



Typhoon yes, SU-35 no. India will kick up a mighty fuss. You have to remember that India has tens of billions of deals in the pipeline, money that Pakistan cannot match and Russia cannot afford to lose. Money talks BS walks.....

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## Zarvan

Maj.Osmani said:


> I belive a mirror would help you to find out the person who is making fun of you.
> Regards,
> Ayna Delh k tujko yeh bole ay sanwarney waley...ab tu bemoat maryen gey tere chahney waley.
> 
> 
> Pakistan would wait for 10 years to invest heavily on 5th Gen fighter project probably a J.V with China or home production of J-31.


Waiting for ten years is suicide and @waz I know about India's investments and that is exactly the reason they can't afford to threaten Russia


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## waz

Zarvan said:


> Waiting for ten years is suicide and @waz I know about India's investments and that is exactly the reason they can't afford to threaten Russia



Russia is worried of losing it bro. India can work with with a number nations e.g. Sweden, France etc.

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## Centurion2016

PAFS next fighter in order of most likely to Virtually zero is as follows. nos around 40

Thunders new block = 99% chance
F16 used = 99% chance
F16/52 = 50% chance after more lobbying
J10B = 40% chance if a financing supported by china 
SU35 = 25% if financing supported by Russia and no pressure from india
Rafale/Typhoon/Gripen = 10% chance .............. JUST SO DAM EXPENSIVE for PAK pockets
F35 = 0% just wont happen imo

PS this is placing and order between now & 2020

Both J20 & J31 will not be available for another decade

New aircraft for PAF is between new upgraded thunder or F16 used from other non USA country . Outside chance of J10B

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## Zarvan

waz said:


> Russia is worried of losing it bro. India can work with with a number nations e.g. Sweden, France etc.


That will put India 10 years behind sheduele which they can't afford along with giving access to Pakistan if PAK 50


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## Maj.Osmani

Centurion2016 said:


> PAFS next fighter in order of most likely to Virtually zero is as follows. nos around 40
> 
> Thunders new block = 99% chance
> F16 used = 99% chance
> F16/52 = 50% chance after more lobbying
> J10B = 40% chance if a financing supported by china
> SU35 = 25% if financing supported by Russia and no pressure from india
> Rafale/Typhoon/Gripen = 10% chance .............. JUST SO DAM EXPENSIVE for PAK pockets
> F35 = 0% just wont happen imo
> 
> PS this is placing and order between now & 2020
> 
> Both J20 & J31 will not be available for another decade
> 
> New aircraft for PAF is between new upgraded thunder or F16 used from other non USA country . Outside chance of J10B


Nice observation but bro from where you get the stats?


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## aliyusuf

Whatever this is, is not going to happen any time soon. Let the events unfold and reveal what gets selected. Whatever platform is selected, will be placed on order and it won't be until 2 to 3 years from the placement of that order ... that the first examples will begin to arrive.

Anything else is speculation, unless someone has a clear insider info on which platform has been selected.


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## Maj.Osmani

A big *If *PAF going to purchase Jets right now the most probable option is used mirages from UAE.


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## Silicon0000

If its not fake news than If you see other than Chinese and American there left four options, Su/Mig, Ef, raf, Saab. My guess is Mig.

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## Taimur Khurram

ziaulislam said:


> why get gripen, better to buy electronics for thunder from third party option , otherwise they are identical in size and performance



Not exactly identical, besides, buying a gripen means we can get something to work with the Thunder.


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## flamer84

40 EF Typhoon=10 billion $

Good luck with that....

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## Taimur Khurram

flamer84 said:


> 40 EF Typhoon=10 billion $
> 
> Good luck with that....



Exactly.


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## Khan Sahab

Is there any realistic chance of this happening anytime soon? I think Eurofighter is more of a wishful thinking at this point and I agree with the senior members that Su-35 is almost impossible to pull. Is there any chance Russia will approve China to provide J-11B/C or something?

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## Centurion2016

Maj Osmani.

I don't work in the industry and I don't have inside information.

But I work in statistics
I follow military trends
I follow geo politics

its fairly obvious what PAF can and cant do.

BECAUSE THEY HAVE huge limitations both financially and politically.

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## Taimur Khurram

pakistanipower said:


> No we had trying to purchase GRIPEN in early 2000 but Sweden disagreed to sell offensive weapon to Pakistan, the only option is left EF2000 from Europe or may be J-10c or J-10d will comming



No, it was the US that made the deal go rotten. Trust me, I am 100% sure that if we tried hard enough, we could get the Gripen.


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## Maj.Osmani

dsr478 said:


> No, it was the US that made the deal go rotten. Trust me, I am 100% sure that if we tried hard enough, we could get the Gripen.


What grippen can offer over the JF-17 just Radar?


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## Taimur Khurram

Khan Sahab said:


> Is there any realistic chance of this happening anytime soon? I think Eurofighter is more of a wishful thinking at this point and I agree with the senior members that Su-35 is almost impossible to pull. Is there any chance Russia will approve China to provide J-11B/C or something?



We can get the Su-35, although I think the PAF would want something more familiar from the West or China.


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## Assault Rifle

Even for maintenance & servicing contracts most of the money is spent in manufacturing/acquisition of new parts & systems and in refurbishing or repair of old parts/systems.
There are other costs too such as tools, machines and equipment required for servicing and overhaul of aircraft.

In it's 2012 annual report Lockheed Martin mentioned that of all the F-16s(both USAF & others), it refurbished and serviced in the past three years, it's profit was only 2.38% of the revenue earned from this activity.


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## fitpOsitive

Tipu7 said:


> Possible Candidates ...........
> 
> Though Mirage 2000-9 is 2nd hand option, Rafale is too expensive.
> Mig35 is most feasible but PAF is most interested in Su35 ..........
> 
> So lets see............
> 
> View attachment 311520


You missed the strongest candidate.


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## Taimur Khurram

Maj.Osmani said:


> What grippen can offer over the JF-17 just Radar?



Tbh, not that much. However, the aircrafts could complement each other.


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## flamer84

dsr478 said:


> Exactly.




And I've took the price down a little,the Kuweitis paid like 320 million$/piece but I figured that Pakistanis,being more professional,won't pay for every bolt to be nailed by European contractors,so I estimated at 250.


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## Centurion2016

No offence but with my stats back ground I can actually predict what the PAF will evolve to in nos and composition between today and 2025 AND I would feel I would be fairly close to reality.

its fairly clear what will happen both in PAF & IAF and even the arab air forces near us.

These negotiations start years before frutition


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## HRK

Centurion2016 said:


> Even the block 52 that paf have been partly funded by USA aid in pretext of wot support by USA.



wrong info already clarified number of time

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Fighter Jets are definitely SU-35


in your dream kid in your dream


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## Taimur Khurram

flamer84 said:


> And I've took the price down a little,the Kuweitis paid like 320 million$/piece but I figured that Pakistanis,being more professional,won't pay for every bolt to be nailed by European contractors,so I estimated at 250.



If Pakistan is going to buy something like the Eurofighter (HIGHLY unlikely), then it would be in very small quantities, like 16 at most.


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## Muhammad Omar

Maj.Osmani said:


> Nice observation but bro from where you get the stats?



He got it by using his Mind

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## Khan Sahab

dsr478 said:


> We can get the Su-35, although I think the PAF would want something more familiar from the West or China.


Pakistan doesn't have the political leverage to convince Russia to sell us Su-35. Russia won't do anything which can possibly irk India, like it or not.

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## Maj.Osmani

@Arsalan @waz 
There is any scale model avaiable for SU35, i want to gift Mr. @Zarvan

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## Silicon0000

it's probably MIG35.

if true

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## Assault Rifle

Pakistan has a very good chance of buying JH-7A.

@waz @Khan Sahab


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maj.Osmani said:


> @Arsalan @waz
> There is any scale model avaiable for SU35, i want to gift Mr. @Zarvan


Just get him a framed picture so that he can see it all the time in his room...


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## Blue Marlin

Maj.Osmani said:


> And rest of the kids on this thread i would gift on demand...with instructions in order to fly high jump from first floor so that for few months we can get rid of fanboys.


only the first floor? i was thinking second floor or the roof and land on the stringy beds you lot have. that will knock sense in them.

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## aliyusuf

@Maj.Osmani @ACE OF THE AIR @Blue Marlin 

What if @Zarvan turns out to be right and PAF selects the SU-35 ... then would all of you who are making fun of him then apologize?

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## Maj.Osmani

aliyusuf said:


> What if @Zarvan turns out to be right and PAF selects the SU-35 ... then would all of you who are making fun of him then apologize?


Write it with blood..thats not going to happen.

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## Blue Marlin

aliyusuf said:


> What if @Zarvan turns out to be right and PAF selects the SU-35 ... then would all of you who are making fun of him then apologize?


ok but i know it wont happen so there no need to bother apologizing

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## Maj.Osmani

GURU DUTT said:


> plus most weapons used on JF17 have russian origin so it wont be that difficult aswell


Kindly explain it further which Russian weapons we are using with JF-17.

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## Quwa

aliyusuf said:


> What if @Zarvan turns out to be right and PAF selects the SU-35 ... then would all of you who are making fun of him then apologize?


This is what Zarvan wrote on my Facebook wall in January (I edited out his picture and last name). I could disagree with someone, but I wouldn't make fun of them for it, even if they are wrong. Might make an exception for a really stupid case, but that's rare. If I recall correctly, it was Zarvan who said a few months ago that the PAF was looking at Su-35 and Eurofighter. Now we have two credible sources from PakDef - Haris Khan and Boota Masih - say the same (though Haris Khan is heavily hinting the J-16).

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## ACE OF THE AIR

aliyusuf said:


> @Maj.Osmani @ACE OF THE AIR @Blue Marlin
> 
> What if @Zarvan turns out to be right and PAF selects the SU-35 ... then would all of you who are making fun of him then apologize?


PAF has one or not @Zarvan would definitely have one.

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## aliyusuf

Quwa said:


> This is what Zarvan wrote on my Facebook wall in January (I edited out his picture and last name). I could disagree with someone, but I wouldn't make fun of them for it, even if they are wrong. Might make an exception for a really stupid case, but that's rare. If I recall correctly, it was Zarvan who said a few months ago that the PAF was looking at Su-35 and Eurofighter. Now we have two credible sources from PakDef - Haris Khan and Boota Masih - say the same (though Haris Khan is heavily hinting the J-16).



Point taken

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## Blue Marlin

Quwa said:


> This is what Zarvan wrote on my Facebook wall in January (I edited out his picture and last name).


according @Dazzler the z-10 was sent back to china for upgrades and improvements kind like what they did with the ak tank j-7 j-6 and they turned out to be a great success. tbh i would go by dazzeler as its consistent with previous procurement methods

also i have seen that post and zarvan's fb page so i know what he looks like and his second name


https://defence.pk/threads/confirmed-pics-of-t-129-in-pakistan.435332/page-5#post-8392221
https://defence.pk/threads/confirmed-pics-of-t-129-in-pakistan.435332/page-4#post-8390641

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## Zarvan

Quwa said:


> This is what Zarvan wrote on my Facebook wall in January (I edited out his picture and last name). I could disagree with someone, but I wouldn't make fun of them for it, even if they are wrong. Might make an exception for a really stupid case, but that's rare. If I recall correctly, it was Zarvan who said a few months ago that the PAF was looking at Su-35 and Eurofighter. Now we have two credible sources from PakDef - Haris Khan and Boota Masih - say the same (though Haris Khan is heavily hinting the J-16).


And we are testing T-129 and showing interest in MI-28 specially the dual seat version so I was right. But if wz-16 engine comes than Z-10 will be back

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## CHACHA"G"

*Hello All 
Here we go again 
No doubt that we need a heavy , I will say if we can y not 2 heavies like one As Air Superiority and other one as Multirole or bomber . Don't tell me wishing is a bad thing because from last 18 pages I only saw that.
To all members buying is not a problem fro Pakistan , even if we want we can go for both SU-35 and EF2000 40 each it will cost us like 13Billion Max with every thing and it will take minimum 5 to 7 Years .
Just do some math , let us take a price tag of 14 billion $$$ and total years 7 that will work out 2Billion US$$$ and if you look at our Procurement Budget that is 2Billion US $$$ so now if we spent all for Birds even then we have the Money or if we spend 1Billion from Budge and Please don't tell me that Pakistan cant generate reaming 1Billion $$$.
Moral of the story is , Money was never that much of a problem , Problem was in will and poor and weak foreign publicity (lobbing) and also there was not much option available for Pakistan in past , but new Geopolitical Environment is very much in favour of Pakistan so now we have offers or sellers who are ready to sell and lol if Seller can understand that Pakistan have or can arrange money so I don't know Y people here on PDF don't .
Thank you all



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:



Still recall the word of the Cheif who stated .... the J10B won't add anything new to our force while our pilots flying Older generation MIrage and F7

Click to expand...


Sir G golden line , that is what I am saying from day one , 250 JF17 is a bad very bad Idea or if you want to replace all old birds with only one bird , we need a brother In arms for JF17 one more Bird and for me J10 is best in that regard One more new Advance Gen Single Engine Delta wing.
Some members here say there is a problem in Engine that is y we are not getting it , for me that's a childish excuse , Please don't tell me PAF and PLAAF is not able to sort out engine problem .

In the end My wish list " Remember Money is There"

JF-17 ------------------------------ 150

J10(P) ----------------------------- 150

SU-35 ----------------------------- 40 to 60

EF2000 ----------------------------- 60 to 80

F16 (MLUs) ----------------------- 100
*

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## Basel

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.



possibly Russian as mention by Shahid masood and was poted in some thread on PDF.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

CHACHA"G" said:


> *In the end My wish list " Remember Money is There"
> 
> JF-17 ------------------------------ 150
> 
> J10(P) ----------------------------- 150
> 
> SU-35 ----------------------------- 40 to 60
> 
> EF2000 ----------------------------- 60 to 80
> 
> F16 (MLUs) ----------------------- 100*



Some things of your wish list are a reality but you have to understand that some are just not an option. 
PAF would have 100 F-16's 

Still the requirement of 100 high end aircraft remains to be filled.

150 JF-17 would indicate only 3 batches but PAF has announced that Block 4 is being considered hence the number automatically increases by 50 more. i.e 200 JF-17's.

These numbers would take PAF combat fleet to around 400 aircraft. PAF has already stated that they are looking towards 400-450 combat aircraft. However with the Western Border and CPEC developments the numbers would have to be increased to some where around 500-550.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Blue Marlin said:


> the typhoon is better comparison done...



hehe....English man is saying typhoon is better than other. Why would i believe that? how about getting neutral?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> hehe....English man is saying typhoon is better than other. Why would i believe that? how about getting neutral?


Hear you go..Have a nice time reading.
https://defence.pk/threads/su-30mki...ced-but-the-brits-wont-like-it-anyway.390670/

http://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-Typhoon.html

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-lethal-su-35-fighter-vs-eurofighter-who-wins-13952

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ef2000/

http://www.aviatia.net/eurofighter-vs-su-30mki/

https://www.quora.com/Which-aircraft-would-win-in-a-dogfight-a-Eurofighter-Typhoon-or-an-F22-Raptor
https://theaviationist.com/2014/09/...s-in-a-dogfight-against-4th-gen-fighter-jets/
https://theaviationist.com/2013/02/21/raptor-vs-typhoon-us/

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-f-35-will-never-beat-the-eurofighter-2013-2
http://www.aviatia.net/eurofighter-vs-f35/
https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win...-F-35-and-a-Eurofighter-Typhoon-fighter-plane

http://www.aviatia.net/rafale-vs-eurofighter/
https://www.quora.com/India-Did-Ind...-Dassault-Rafale-over-the-Eurofighter-Typhoon
https://www.quora.com/What-do-the-U...Typhoon-Dassault-Rafale-Sukhoi-Su-30-MiGs-etc

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## Blue Marlin

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> hehe....English man is saying typhoon is better than other. Why would i believe that? how about getting neutral?


well the rafael is kinda better in a2g roles i guess, whilst the eft is better in a2a roles
but i prefer the typhoon

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## Centurion2016

The typhoons where designed with a veiw to defending Europe against the massive flankers and mig 29. Threat.

Twin engines with super cruise.New generation turbofan engines very low rcs incredible twr speed and agility..

Of course world class hms and ew suites. 

Finally meteore ram jet missiles with new generation pesa radars..

Typhoons are one half generation ahead of the mirage2000/5 and falcons f16/52....

Believe me take out money aside this is the best air defense fighter in the world bar f22 raptor.

You want to answer the 272, su30mki you can't buy better than Euro fighters .....

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## Quwa

Kuwait agreed to pay around $9bn U.S. for 28 Eurofighter Typhoons. Granted, the batch they're getting are going to be equipped with a new AESA radar, and they may be picking up a hefty support package along with it too. But with all that aside, can we expect anything less than $10 billion U.S. for 40 aircraft?

We'd have to let the Europeans somehow access those offshore accounts of our leaders in order to get financing for such a deal. It wouldn't be the worst exchange - i.e. let Italian mobsters have a look at those Dubai properties, or let INTERPOL reign in on the stuff sitting in London.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Hear you go..Have a nice time reading.
> https://defence.pk/threads/su-30mki...ced-but-the-brits-wont-like-it-anyway.390670/
> 
> http://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-Typhoon.html
> 
> http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-lethal-su-35-fighter-vs-eurofighter-who-wins-13952
> 
> http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ef2000/
> 
> http://www.aviatia.net/eurofighter-vs-su-30mki/
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Which-aircraft-would-win-in-a-dogfight-a-Eurofighter-Typhoon-or-an-F22-Raptor
> https://theaviationist.com/2014/09/...s-in-a-dogfight-against-4th-gen-fighter-jets/
> https://theaviationist.com/2013/02/21/raptor-vs-typhoon-us/
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/the-f-35-will-never-beat-the-eurofighter-2013-2
> http://www.aviatia.net/eurofighter-vs-f35/
> https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win...-F-35-and-a-Eurofighter-Typhoon-fighter-plane
> 
> http://www.aviatia.net/rafale-vs-eurofighter/
> https://www.quora.com/India-Did-Ind...-Dassault-Rafale-over-the-Eurofighter-Typhoon
> https://www.quora.com/What-do-the-U...Typhoon-Dassault-Rafale-Sukhoi-Su-30-MiGs-etc


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## guest11

My two cents.

1) Typhoon - Convincing four different nations with four very different foreign policy will not be a cake walk for Pakistan's FO. Then, there is the matter of money. Kuwait is buying 28 for $9 billion. This order is more more similar to Pakistan's. 

2) Su-35 - Sure why not? All I can say is if Russians are selling Su-35 to Pakistan, you might as well add Yasen class to the list.

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Trust me Pakistan is buying third 4.5th Generation Fighter and SU-35 from Russia and Euro Fighter from Italy are most easy option. If Russia decides to sell us SU-35 believe me India can't stop this deal


we all can just assume and wish why you are so sure that it will Su-35, are you in PAF? let wait and see


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Centurion2016 said:


> The typhoons where designed with a veiw to defending Europe against the massive flankers and mig 29. Threat.
> 
> Twin engines with super cruise.New generation turbofan engines very low rcs incredible twr speed and agility..
> 
> Of course world class hms and ew suites.
> 
> Finally meteore ram jet missiles with new generation pesa radars..
> 
> Typhoons are one half generation ahead of the mirage2000/5 and falcons f16/52....
> 
> Believe me take out money aside this is the best air defense fighter in the world bar f22 raptor.
> 
> You want to answer the 272, su30mki you can't buy better than Euro fighters .....



I m hoping too that we'll go for UK as India went for french Rafael. UK and France are also rivals of each other. Imagine Pakistan is flying English Typhoon and India is on French Rafael. It will be interestingly funny. As far as talent, training and tech you guys have regarding military stuff, all i can say.......

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## jamal18

Yes. Spend billions on expensive aircraft from abroad, that will not be able to get of the ground due to sanctions when the first bomb goes off..

Only Chinese aircraft are sanction free, and at least get licensed production at home with ToT.


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## ziaulislam

dsr478 said:


> Not exactly identical, besides, buying a gripen means we can get something to work with the Thunder.


you can go to italy and buy vixen AESA and even ask for same engine from USA or ej2000.
you can make thunder completely western if you want
so why buy a gripen??

PAF wants to buy aircraft with range as good as the CFTs F-16 for strike missions

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## Farbeyonddriven




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## Mav3rick

Maj.Osmani said:


> Write it with blood..thats not going to happen.



Whose blood?


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## ziaulislam

Assault Rifle said:


> @Muhammad Omar
> 
> Actually Pakistan's defence procurement budget is a mere Rs. 211bn($ 2.05bn)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1262657
> 
> So 40 EF-2000 will cost at least $7.5-8 billion thus nearly 4 times Pakistan's defence procurement budget including weapons, training and infrastructure
> 
> Similarly 40 Su-35 will cost atleast $4.5 billion including weapons, training and infrastructure.
> 
> Pakistan can only afford JH7 And J16


we did pay the same amount of money for F-16s and it was the 1990s and it was out of the budget as strategic procurement.(second installment of F-16 that went through procurement was 3.28 billion dollars that too when our GDP was 4 times smaller, and yes we were in IMF program back than too, it also paid another 3 billion dollars recently for the f-16s) 

its a simple question of need, if PAF is able to make its case to Pak army and political leadership than it would happen., do i think it would happen, NO.

should Pakistan do this fast, i think not, if we really want to, we should go for a good deal that would help thunder as well, india was able to drag whole market for over a decade with just proposition of 10 billion dollars



Assault Rifle said:


> The profit % from maintenance and servicing contracts is very low.Around 3-5% only.


PAC is doing fine, we selling 3 different types of aircraft, one sole product and 2 as joint ventures
most of profits like for any other company will go into development not procurement
but* this would lower the cost of thunder that is the main game plan*

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## Centurion2016

Pakistani annual procurement budget of 2 billion dollars is a cross four area's


Army
Navy
Airforce
Nuclear weapons including missles.

Even if you split this equally it's a mere 500 million dollars and I am.guessing most of this is going on thunder induction..and spares for existing fleet be it heliocoters or fighters.

A massive induction of a new fighter will have to be met by a new income source and pot of money be that Grant aid or forex reserve or other bank loan from.a potential seller. Ie chengdu if j10 or sukhoi if flankers or very unlikely EADS if buying typhoons

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Farbeyonddriven said:


>



Welcome on this forum. Having coffee is great way to begin with.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Centurion2016 said:


> Pakistani annual procurement budget of 2 billion dollars is a cross four area's
> 
> 
> Army
> Navy
> Airforce
> Nuclear weapons including missles.
> 
> Even if you split this equally it's a mere 500 million dollars and I am.guessing most of this is going on thunder induction..and spares for existing fleet be it heliocoters or fighters.
> 
> A massive induction of a new fighter will have to be met by a new income source and pot of money be that Grant aid or forex reserve or other bank loan from.a potential seller. Ie chengdu if j10 or sukhoi if flankers or very unlikely EADS if buying typhoons


Lets see what can PAKISTAN afford with the USD 500 million/annum.. 
When was the last time PAF procure a good number of aircraft? As per my memory serves me it was way back in the late 90's. PAF had the money to buy 70 F-16 block 52 in 2000 which were not purchased but the money was donated to the flood victims in 2005. 

Since 2005 till 2016 the amount can be estimated as USD 5 billion. 

Pakistan Army 
The last time they procured stuff was the Al Khalid and Howitzers from the USA. This is way back 2003-2005. 
They have very deep pockets....

Pakistan Navy Last time they procured some thing decent was in the 90's Agosta 90B Submarines. So they also have approximately USD 5-7 Billion. 

Nuclear Missile technology is with Pakistan since the 1960's hence only improvements have taken place....There pockets run deep.

A rough estimate that can be easily arraigned to be aprox USD 15-20 Billion combined. This is enough to get what Pakistan requires for all fields that you have mentioned.



PaklovesTurkiye said:


> I m hoping too that we'll go for UK as India went for french Rafael. UK and France are also rivals of each other. Imagine Pakistan is flying English Typhoon and India is on French Rafael. It will be interestingly funny. As far as talent, training and tech you guys have regarding military stuff, all i can say.......


This should have been done a long time ago...

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## Centurion2016

ACES OF THE AIR



Well if Pakistans pockets are full of cash then my advice lets stop shopping for Jordanian junk F16s which will be sanction threatened and go buy the Euro Fighter Typhoon.

The Saudis have 70 Typhoons and they swear by them. ( But the Saudis defense budget is $80 billion per year) v Pakistans $ 8 billion per year.

The Typhoon with the world class pilots of Pakistan will scare the hell out of the enemy[/QUOTE]

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## My-Analogous

Assault Rifle said:


> @Muhammad Omar
> 
> Actually Pakistan's defence procurement budget is a mere Rs. 211bn($ 2.05bn)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1262657
> 
> So 40 EF-2000 will cost at least $7.5-8 billion thus nearly 4 times Pakistan's defence procurement budget including weapons, training and infrastructure
> 
> Similarly 40 Su-35 will cost atleast $4.5 billion including weapons, training and infrastructure.
> 
> Pakistan can only afford JH7 And J16



Are you paying for that procurement's? by the way we procure F16 with complete package in 2006 around 5.1 billion dollars and that was 10 years before. Pakistan can easily afford three sqdn.


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## Centurion2016

What Pakistan did in 2006 which was at the height of WAR ON TERROR and usa grant aid was pouring in

is totally opposite today

No Grant aid AND no F16./52 but only second hand Jordanian obsolete falcons.

in 2006 your neighbour ordered 270 su30mki TODAY they cant afford 36 rafales.

TIMES CHANGE.....

*I will stick my neck out and confidently state the only new fighters coming to PAF between now and 2020 IS*

EITHER USED FALCONS from Europe x 40 planes

or

slightly upgraded Thunders x 40 planes

unless

*PAK GOVT can make up with USA and get them to part funded 18 more block 52s *


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## Wolf

Quwa said:


> Kuwait agreed to pay around $9bn U.S. for 28 Eurofighter Typhoons. Granted, the batch they're getting are going to be equipped with a new AESA radar, and they may be picking up a hefty support package along with it too. But with all that aside, can we expect anything less than $10 billion U.S. for 40 aircraft?
> 
> We'd have to let the Europeans somehow access those offshore accounts of our leaders in order to get financing for such a deal. It wouldn't be the worst exchange - i.e. let Italian mobsters have a look at those Dubai properties, or let INTERPOL reign in on the stuff sitting in London.


Sorry, but Arabs are responsible for disturbing prices of fighters and take them away from reach of countries like Pakistan. Arabs are like those investors who in Pakistan have invested in property and property quadruple in matter of months. 150 million $ is more than a fair price for typhoon and Rafael. Arabs have lost the art of bargaining I guess. I mean come on 9 billion dollars for just 28 typhoons as if they are buying some kind of space ship with anti gravitational characteristics

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## zebra7

Khan Sahab said:


> Is there any realistic chance of this happening anytime soon? I think Eurofighter is more of a wishful thinking at this point and I agree with the senior members that Su-35 is almost impossible to pull. Is there any chance Russia will approve China to provide J-11B/C or something?



Could be possible, and it could be worked.



Assault Rifle said:


> Pakistan has a very good chance of buying JH-7A.
> 
> @waz @Khan Sahab



Negative, its a Bomber, PAF would and should seek Multirole Combat Plane.


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## Ultima Thule

dsr478 said:


> We can get the Su-35, although I think the PAF would want something more familiar from the West or China.





dsr478 said:


> No, it was the US that made the deal go rotten. Trust me, I am 100% sure that if we tried hard enough, we could get the Gripen.





dsr478 said:


> No, it was the US that made the deal go rotten. Trust me, I am 100% sure that if we tried hard enough, we could get the Gripen.


Gripen chapter is close for PAF its not about US its about to sweden to decide to sell it to pakistan sir


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## baqai

I personally would like them to go for Russian option, with EU there are too many strings attached, even if one nation is on PMS that means we will face the same problems as in F-16

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## Assault Rifle

$3.6 billion of the 5.4 billion purchased from US or transferred by US to Pakistan since 2001 was paid by US military according to Congressional Research Service, 2015.

China also provided generous financing terms for JF-17 And F-22P.

Pakistan currently will be never able to afford $10 Billion for 40 EFTs or $5 billion for 40 Su-35s.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Centurion2016 said:


> ACES OF THE AIR
> 
> 
> 
> Well if Pakistans pockets are full of cash then my advice lets stop shopping for Jordanian junk F16s which will be sanction threatened and go buy the Euro Fighter Typhoon.
> 
> The Saudis have 70 Typhoons and they swear by them. ( But the Saudis defense budget is $80 billion per year) v Pakistans $ 8 billion per year.
> 
> The Typhoon with the world class pilots of Pakistan will scare the hell out of the enemy


[/QUOTE]
PAF would never go for more than 100-110 multi engine aircraft.. So it has to buy more F-16's from the market and also increase the numbers of JF-17's.

The 100 multi engine aircraft would also include 5th generation aircraft. With a requirement of 450-500 aircraft you have to be very care full in selecting what is affordable and up to the standard.

100 F16
100-110 one (EFT / SU-35) & (TFX / F-31)
200-250 JF-17
PAF gets to the 450+ target.

PAF is also looking for a single engine fifth get aircraft. Most likely a development of JF-17 which would replace the block 1 and 2 JF-17's and F-16's


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## Ultima Thule

Assault Rifle said:


> Pakistan has a very good chance of buying JH-7A.
> 
> @waz @Khan Sahab


its bomber not a multi-role fighter

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## 90ArsalanLeo

mingle said:


> No idea Shah G could be but if it would be FC20 he prabably told us but he kept quite on type for sure its not from China .F16 PAF looking used one not new ones As per Haris .Could be Su or EF these is no other option if we see whole GCC going EF s then chances r we will go for EF 2000 if it's EF then would be through Italy .



No way we will get EF for that we have to get permission from UK, Germany, Italy & we dont have best of relations with UK & Germany besides its too expensive out of our budget. USA & India will definitely intervene to scrap this deal if its in place

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## mikkix

Su 35 is the only option if pakistan successfully begs $$$ from arabs. Otherwise some junk f shola. I can bet to anyone for it. Ef2000 cant be possible.


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## Zarvan

90ArsalanLeo said:


> No way we will get EF for that we have to get permission from UK, Germany, Italy & we dont have best of relations with UK & Germany besides its too expensive out of our budget. USA & India will definitely intervene to scrap this deal if its in place


UK would give permission but all three countries are independent in selling EF

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## mikkix

Zarvan said:


> UK would give permission but all three countries are independent in selling EF


Can we afford EF?
Su 35 is more possible and feasible except indian pressure but I guess russia will handle that. Dont you think it will be just a media report of false claims.


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## waz

90ArsalanLeo said:


> No way we will get EF for that we have to get permission from UK, Germany, Italy & we dont have best of relations with UK & Germany besides its too expensive out of our budget. USA & India will definitely intervene to scrap this deal if its in place



Pakistan has excellent relations with the UK i.e. Commonwealth, major investor etc. The Germans are ok. No one can intervene to scrap such a deal.

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## mingle

waz said:


> Pakistan has excellent relations with the UK i.e. Commonwealth, major investor etc. The Germans are ok. No one can intervene to scrap such a deal.


If its EF then it would be through italy .My two cents it will be funded at some extent by GCC .



Zarvan said:


> UK would give permission but all three countries are independent in selling EF


Zarvan what u expect when we will listen news officialy ?

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## Quwa

waz said:


> Pakistan has excellent relations with the UK i.e. Commonwealth, major investor etc. The Germans are ok. No one can intervene to scrap such a deal.


We can always leverage those UK or Dubai properties and Swiss accounts. That's our hidden oil reserve.

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## waz

Quwa said:


> We can always leverage those UK or Dubai properties and Swiss accounts. That's our hidden oil reserve.



Lol.


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## mingle

Quwa said:


> We can always leverage those UK or Dubai properties and Swiss accounts. That's our hidden oil reserve.


Bilal Eygpt bought 28 Rafale around 5 Billion $ with navel stuff too i think we should look at those lines .


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## Quwa

mingle said:


> Bilal Eygpt bought 28 Rafale around 5 Billion $ with navel stuff too i think we should look at those lines .


They got a line of credit from France, which likely only came because it's all but an open secret that Egypt is getting Gulf aid. If not aid, then at least a shadow guarantor.

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## 90ArsalanLeo

Zarvan said:


> UK would give permission but all three countries are independent in selling EF



No all three countries have to give a consent before they sell this aircraft



mingle said:


> If its EF then it would be through italy .My two cents it will be funded at some extent by GCC .



What about the money? We dont have billions to buy 40 EF


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## Quwa

90ArsalanLeo said:


> No all three countries have to give a consent before they sell this aircraft


So we give Scotland Yard MQM, the Italian mafia Ishaq Dar's Dubai property, and Germany the keys to someone's Swiss account (we'll throw in a Holocaust denier or two as well). We can buy EF Typhoon with ease.


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## Arshad mahmood Hussain

30 pages of pure speculation and mental masturbation. PAF know their stuff with the limitations they are working under. If someone gets hold of Harris khan please let me and some others here know

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## Quwa

Arshad mahmood Hussain said:


> 30 pages of pure speculation and mental masturbation. PAF know their stuff with the limitations they are working under. If someone gets hold of Harris khan please let me and some others here know


You can directly ping him on PakDef - their forum or their Twitter.


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## Benign Persona

Quwa said:


> You can directly ping him on PakDef - their forum or their Twitter.


who is this Haris khan guy sir? what is his background?


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## Quwa

Benign Persona said:


> who is this Haris khan guy sir? what is his background?


He's a defence analyst/professional who runs PakDef. He is fairly well connected and is often asked to give commentary by Defense News. Him and Usman Shabbir are reliable sources.

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## Sinnerman108

Abingdonboy said:


> $50BN in defence sales over the next 10 years could be $75BN in the following 10 years or $10BN depending on the Indo-Russian relations going foreward, there is a lot at stake for both sides and frankly most nations will not put their relations with an emerging global giant for........Pakistan. Geopolitical realities will see to that.
> 
> Leaving all of this talk about abstract concepts such as geopolitics and "influence" to one side, the most rudimentary question is that of cost. If the PAF is unable/unwilling to pay full price for some F-16 Blk.52s, will they be willing to pay full price for some SU-35s? The Russians aren't going to offer any discounts or exotic financing options.



I hate getting in these threads but for once 

How about a former soviet estate selling an aircraft ?

Maybe Belarus , maybe Ukraine ?

More realistically we may hear about European F-16s again.


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## volatile

alimobin memon said:


> its mirage 2000-9 that was my guess but I heard 2000-9 are being procured by argentina and at other side some other african country no idea. So its not mirage 2000-9 probably. But maybe its ef2000 or russian origin. nothing else seems to be there.


Argentina is interested in Mirage F1 and Mirage 5 not on Mirage 2000


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## Areesh

H Khan never said it would be *non chinese* aircraft. I don't know from where OP got this idea.

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## Sinnerman108

Assault Rifle said:


> @Muhammad Omar
> 
> Actually Pakistan's defence procurement budget is a mere Rs. 211bn($ 2.05bn)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dawn.com/news/1262657
> 
> So 40 EF-2000 will cost at least $7.5-8 billion thus nearly 4 times Pakistan's defence procurement budget including weapons, training and infrastructure
> 
> Similarly 40 Su-35 will cost atleast $4.5 billion including weapons, training and infrastructure.
> 
> Pakistan can only afford JH7 And J16



Full amount is not paid upfront.

and you are a kid, accomplished wanker at best.

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## Areesh

Sinnerman108 said:


> Full amount is not paid upfront.
> 
> and you are a kid, accomplished wanker at best.



@Assault Rifle is a fan of TTP from India. Used to post a lot of sh!t about them when they were very active. Now since Pakistan has beaten TTP back to its holes in Afghanistan poor soul is busy in debates like this on hoping that Pak won't ever get EFT or SU35.

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## Major 13625

pak is lagging behind they need it urgent

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## Falcon26

Quwa said:


> Kuwait agreed to pay around $9bn U.S. for 28 Eurofighter Typhoons. Granted, the batch they're getting are going to be equipped with a new AESA radar, and they may be picking up a hefty support package along with it too. But with all that aside, can we expect anything less than $10 billion U.S. for 40 aircraft?
> 
> We'd have to let the Europeans somehow access those offshore accounts of our leaders in order to get financing for such a deal. It wouldn't be the worst exchange - i.e. let Italian mobsters have a look at those Dubai properties, or let INTERPOL reign in on the stuff sitting in London.



Didnt he Saudis get 72 Typhoons for 4.4 billion pounds?


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## Muhammad Omar

Areesh said:


> @Assault Rifle is a fan of TTP from India. Used to post a lot of sh!t about them when they were very active. Now since Pakistan has beaten TTP back to its holes in Afghanistan poor soul is busy in debates like this on hoping that Pak won't ever get EFT or SU35.



Choti Choti Khushiyan   ( finding happiness in small things)


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## Salza

Somebody please delete this thread. Enough said!

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## Falcon26

mikkix said:


> Su 35 is the only option if pakistan successfully begs $$$ from arabs. Otherwise some junk f shola. I can bet to anyone for it. Ef2000 cant be possible.



You guys put way too much value on India. India doesn't control the foreign policy of the EU & it can't control the foreign policy of the EU. Countries like Italy with long military ties with Pakistan will sell the planes in a heartbeat.

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## _NOBODY_

Can't we get used Typhoons(the ones without AESA radar) and then upgrade them ?
@The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777

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## Bratva

If PAF can not afford New jets, they should buy fighting desi Roosters (cocks) to fight with Vegetarian Indian airforce : Ishaaq Daar

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## mikkix

Falcon26 said:


> You guys put way too much value on India. India doesn't control the foreign policy of the EU & it can't control the foreign policy of the EU. Countries like Italy with long military ties with Pakistan will sell the planes in a heartbeat.


We dont actually and it is $$$ that restricts us to buy EF and offcourse US pressure on europe to stop anything to pakistan but indian pressure no way. In case of EF we will never get any high end weapons systems which we can put in su 35. In case of russians yes indian lobby is very strong there and only India can help us to buy some russian planes through ditching them in some defense deals which they are doing which indirectly allows russians to diversify their market more, like indians giving reasons to russians about diversification of their weapons through purchasing from west. Su 35 is the only viable option and relatively cheap and serves better regional cooperation and can enhance pak russian ties in new direction and allowing russian to enter the region again which they had the dream of the past.

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## Tipu7

Bratva said:


> If PAF can not afford News jets, they should buy fighting desi Roosters (cocks) to fight with Vegetarian Indian airforce : Ishaaq Daar


He said so?


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## Ultima Thule

mikkix said:


> We dont actually and it is $$$ that restricts us to buy EF and offcourse US pressure on europe to stop anything to pakistan but indian pressure no way. In case of EF we will never get any high end weapons systems which we can put in su 35. In case of russians yes indian lobby is very strong there and only India can help us to buy some russian planes through ditching them in some defense deals which they are doing which indirectly allows russians to diversify their market more, like indians giving reasons to russians about diversification of their weapons through purchasing from west. Su 35 is the only viable option and relatively cheap and serves better regional cooperation and can enhance pak russian ties in new direction and allowing russian to enter the region again which they had the dream of the past.


No it's not Russian but either Chinese J-10c or d or EF2000


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## That Guy

I'll believe it when I see it.


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## My-Analogous

Guess what our Gen. Rahael is in Germany.


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## Bilal Khan 777

TheGreatOne said:


> Can't we get used Typhoons(the ones without AESA radar) and then upgrade them ?
> @The Eagle @Bilal Khan 777



We are more likely to get used Eagles, in the Strike Eagle configuration from KSA. These can then be upgraded to meet the Pakistani long range strike requirement.


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## Wolfhound

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We are more likely to get used Eagles, in the Strike Eagle configuration from KSA. These can then be upgraded to meet the Pakistani long range strike requirement.


That would only hold true if KSA had an intention of selling these aircraft in the first place. Why would KSA even want to sell us these, brotherly ties? I think not.

P.S I hope you aren't serious.

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## Muhammad Omar

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We are more likely to get used Eagles, in the Strike Eagle configuration from KSA. These can then be upgraded to meet the Pakistani long range strike requirement.



OP is saying a different thing.... 

According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they *not chines or Americans *.PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but* these 40 r New and would be a third type* .No J20 or J31 at this moment.

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## barbarosa

May GOD do it Ameen somma Ameen.

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## Quwa

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We are more likely to get used Eagles, in the Strike Eagle configuration from KSA. These can then be upgraded to meet the Pakistani long range strike requirement.


It's sehri time soon ... but I will eat popcorn. Every reply from here on is going to be interesting, very interesting. Every Pakistani, Indian, Saudi, Emirati, Qatari, Turk, pet, pet's pet, is going to have an opinion about what you just wrote

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## Khafee

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We are more likely to get used Eagles, in the Strike Eagle configuration from KSA. These can then be upgraded to meet the Pakistani long range strike requirement.


Are you serious? I think not.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Khafee said:


> Are you serious? I think not.



I think, therefore I am

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## Khafee

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I think, therefore I am


Ah ok. Got it!!


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## Bilal Khan 777

Quwa said:


> It's sehri time soon ... but I will eat popcorn. Every reply from here on is going to be interesting, very interesting. Every Pakistani, Indian, Saudi, Emirati, Qatari, Turk, pet, pet's pet, is going to have an opinion about what you just wrote



Open your mind. KSA has them too many, low hours. Strike eagles, upgraded to latest EW standard just developed for KSA (the highest cap EW system for an export customer ever), and we get a growler/heavy strike unit, twin engined, AESA, lovely range, and we already have Amerkanski BVR. Some people will catch my drift, others will try to sell Turkish to me again

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## 21 Dec 2012

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We are more likely to get used Eagles, in the Strike Eagle configuration from KSA. These can then be upgraded to meet the Pakistani long range strike requirement.


@Zarvan you seem to be the go-to guy here. What's the news on Saudi Eagles? Is Pakistan getting them or what?


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## slapshot

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Open your mind. KSA has them too many, low hours. Strike eagles, upgraded to latest EW standard just developed for KSA (the highest cap EW system for an export customer ever), and we get a growler/heavy strike unit, twin engined, AESA, lovely range, and we already have Amerkanski BVR. Some people will catch my drift, others will try to sell Turkish to me again


But the news says jets are not Americans.


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## Bilal Khan 777

slapshot said:


> But the news says jets are not Americans.



I am not a news caster, just an opinion maker.

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## Piper

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> I am not a news caster, just an opinion maker.



Not possible w/o US approval however I sense it is more of wish rather than a serious analysis taking into account all extraneous factors.

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## Stephen Cohen

Congratulations to PAF and all Pakistanis


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## Bilal Khan 777

Piper said:


> Not possible w/o US approval however I sense it is more of wish rather than a serious analysis taking into account all extraneous factors.



It is a serious analysis, based on knowledge that may not exist in public media.

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## ADIL SHERDIL

am i missing the point this thread is based on mere speculation or i have missed some confirmation.


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## Bilal Khan 777

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> It is a serious analysis, based on knowledge that may not exist in public media.



And what is possible without US approval, even for non-ITAR platforms?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We are more likely to get used Eagles, in the Strike Eagle configuration from KSA. These can then be upgraded to meet the Pakistani long range strike requirement.


Sir, This option has been closed since 2015 when KSA decided to upgrade these F-15S to F-15SA. 

http://defense-update.com/20150704_f15sa.html.

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## Piper

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> It is a serious analysis, based on knowledge that may not exist in public media.



Well insider knowledge permeating from inner echelons of Washington administration and Pentagon is something which I don't have access to but you might very well have. It just seems unlikely from an outsiders perspective.

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## Kakaspai

Wolfhound said:


> That would only hold true if KSA had an intention of selling these aircraft in the first place. Why would KSA even want to sell us these, brotherly ties? I think not.
> 
> P.S I hope you aren't serious.


i read KSA was going to upgrade these for themselves


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## Falcon26

I really doubt PAF is ever going to field F-15s. The politics is just so complicated, it renders it impossible.


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## Arsalan

Manticore said:


> Do you think pak's foreign ministry is capable of dealing with ALL the countries of eurofighter consortium ? I think J16 is the easy way out particularly on lease


Do you think we will be able to handle even one or two of them? Russia is fast becoming a lost opportunity even in the current scenario and any talks about EF are merely.......... anyway!
J series makes much more sense but i doubt that it will be even that. Expect a few more F16 and be sure about some mess ups while quoting.

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## zebra7

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> And what is possible without US approval, even for non-ITAR platforms?



Mig 35, J-10, SU-35, Mirrage 2005, J-11, SU-27


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## GURU DUTT

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> And what is possible without US approval, even for non-ITAR platforms?


what i know is that PAF still wants 100 more F16s Blk 52 with CFT in case that doesnt happen im very very sure PAF gonna order four full squads of Mig29 version that egypt just baught with provission to have chinese AESA based radar and combined EW-WCM suite


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## weqi

mingle said:


> My Guess is EF 2000



ooo la la la la la jaldi mangao


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## barbarosa

J 10 c will be better than all.


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## weqi

Maj.Osmani said:


> Fake hoax news or simply GUP
> @MastanKhan @Zarvan
> Now ladu tu bantey hien na. woh bhi boondhi walay...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Arsalan


roza hay yarr please



HAIDER said:


> EF is 140 million a piece ....Pakistan can t pay 470 million for new F16 ...


may joint finance with Gulf countries



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> European Fighter Aircraft
> EFT USD 32400 Flying cost
> Rafale USD 28000 Flying cost.
> 
> Russian Fighter Aircraft
> Mig-35 USD 15600 Flying cost
> Su-35 USD 36000 Flying cost
> 
> Looking at these the option could only be one of the European Fighter aircraft.


can be mig 35



Super Falcon said:


> ange w





danger007 said:


> F -22 ???


yeah



Blue Marlin said:


> ooooh what is that?



this is called "laddo" sweet dish famous in india and Pakistan given at occasions to the guests


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## 21 Dec 2012

​Some 300 of these are lying around in bone-yards desperate for love. 


Surely they'll have a better life sailing the winds in Pakistan... because doing that out here is just plain stupid. 





https://theaviationist.com/2014/07/17/f-16-flip-over-f-16/


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## weqi

Blue Marlin said:


> the ladie recomended them to... i was hesitant so she gave me 2 for free andit was way to sweet and full of some liquid. does everyone in pakitan have diabetes? and carry insulin injection everywhere?



yes that is most preferred sweet ,
yes diabetes ratio in Pakistan is very high in urban as compared to rural but eating sugar have no connection whit this there are other reasons mostly confectionery items backed in low grade/ unhygienic fats (which is most common in Pakistan)

so you won't sent EFT  i know even after full payment of $$$$ because of Geo political conditions in this region


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## 21 Dec 2012

*A NEW AIRCRAFT FOR PAF they said. *
*F-16/Eurofighter/Su-35 they said. *






But carry on


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## Maj.Osmani

*Guys thread is about aircrafts....*

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## ADIL SHERDIL

well this thread is turning out to be quite mouth watering. i m not into methais( sweets) but today surely after iftari gonna have rabri faluda.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Blue Marlin said:


> the ladie recomended them to... i was hesitant so she gave me 2 for free andit was way to sweet and full of some liquid. does everyone in pakitan have diabetes? and carry insulin injection everywhere?


If you do not like sweet then how did the lady's charm work on you...when you got the free stuff..

Btw There are some made sugar free next time try those....

We have heard that Pakistani Army Chief is in Germany any news regarding getting EFT in UK?



Maj.Osmani said:


> *Guys thread is about aircrafts....*


Sir you started it by posting the very first  picture.

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## Bratva

Tipu7 said:


> He said so?



In an alternate universe......

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## Bilal Khan 777

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, This option has been closed since 2015 when KSA decided to upgrade these F-15S to F-15SA.
> 
> http://defense-update.com/20150704_f15sa.html.


count the number they have, the number coming in from bone yard, and the number being upgraded. Closed we think?


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## danger007

very interesting thread... some are far from reality..


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## Bilal Khan 777

zebra7 said:


> Mig 35, J-10, SU-35, Mirrage 2005, J-11, SU-27


Thanks. We should start taking suggestions from across the border now.

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## _NOBODY_

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> count the number they have, the number coming in from bone yard, and the number being upgraded. Closed we think?


F-15 is a great fighter but what is the point of buying it if we can't even integrate our weapons or weapons of our choice on it and it is sanction prone.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> count the number they have, the number coming in from bone yard, and the number being upgraded. Closed we think?


Sir,

1) Bone yard is out...Congress Approval is required.
2) Foreign aircraft sale is out...Congress approval is required as PAF is not an operator.

The case of F-16 is different.
1) Bone yard is out ... Congress Approval is required
2) Foreign aircraft sale...YES provided President approves.


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## zebra7

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Thanks. We should start taking suggestions from across the border now.



Sir, that is not a suggestion just a response to you question. I watched one program on Pakistani TV on youtube, and there was one lady, as the defence expert -- and she said lot of option is available for Pakistan, the anchor asked which one -- She said like SU-35, J-10, EF-2000, and Tu Tupolov from Russia. The last was funny though, but she might have some thought, like you who is suggesting F-15 E. Just one question -- Sir for which role for this high end fighter jet for PAF.
Air Defence/ Air Superiority or Deep Strike Air Strike, Naval Strike, Multirole ?


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## weqi

Beethoven said:


> Typhoon with the Captor aesa radar would rule the skies of south asia....should definitely go for it...it would checkmate anything our adversary already has or would have
> Secondly the Typhoon story gets a little bit of credibility from the fact that it was recently flown from Lincolnshire by our very own ACM Aman

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## Areesh

Muhammad Omar said:


> Choti Choti Khushiyan   ( finding happiness in small things)



Ab TTP nai dhoka dai dia to bechara @Assault Rifle ghareeb kia karai

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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> If you do not like sweet then how did the lady's charm work on you...when you got the free stuff..
> 
> Btw There are some made sugar free next time try those....
> 
> We have heard that Pakistani Army Chief is in Germany any news regarding getting EFT in UK?


the lady was 50 odd and she just packd them up and up them in the bag and told me to try them.
as for you acm in germany the usual congrats for fighting thw wot and will talk about afganistan not every talk is about buying weapons


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## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> chachha G when india is going to order F16s why cant and why should PAF refrain in getting Mig29s


India is getting F-18's not Grepen... NOT F-16's...

ALSO NO RAFALES.


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## GURU DUTT

waise SAAB se yaad aaya since Pakistan have better express way netwrok than india i guess grippen E makes perfect sense from them

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## Ultima Thule

GURU DUTT said:


> chachha G when india is going to order F16s why cant and why should PAF refrain in getting Mig29s


because you knows the pros and cons of Mig-29


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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> India is getting F-18's not Grepen... NOT F-16's...
> 
> ALSO NO RAFALES.


no sirji rafales are a done deal as for super hornet or F16 im not very sure Grippen is immpossible to be part of IAF for sure as under new FDI for defnce plan GOI has agreed to give 100% FDI in defence and aerospace under MII scheme



pakistanipower said:


> because you knows the pros and cons of Mig-29


so what you do have better trained pilots than us dont ya

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## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> no sirji rafales are a done deal as for super hornet or F16 im not very sure Grippen is immpossible to be part of IAF for sure as under new FDI for defnce plan GOI has agreed to give 100% FDI in defence and aerospace under MII scheme
> 
> 
> so what you do have better trained pilots than us dont ya


Sir, if you kindly scroll back to find my earlier post in which I had stated in detail why India is considering the Gripen and F-18's over the Rafales. 

100%FDI is more profitable once commonality between systems can be established. The most important factor is that Rafales do not offer RAM which are available through F-18's which is a priority requirement of India for the FGFA especially after the possible delays with PAK-FA.



GURU DUTT said:


> waise SAAB se yaad aaya since Pakistan have better express way netwrok than india i guess grippen E makes perfect sense from them


No chance...


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## Ultima Thule

GURU DUTT said:


> no sirji rafales are a done deal as for super hornet or F16 im not very sure Grippen is immpossible to be part of IAF for sure as under new FDI for defnce plan GOI has agreed to give 100% FDI in defence and aerospace under MII scheme
> 
> 
> so what you do have better trained pilots than us dont ya


i think we don't underestimate our enemy

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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, if you kindly scroll back to find my earlier post in which I had stated in detail why India is considering the Gripen and F-18's over the Rafales.
> 
> 100%FDI is more profitable once commonality between systems can be established. The most important factor is that Rafales do not offer RAM which are available through F-18's which is a priority requirement of India for the FGFA especially after the possible delays with PAK-FA.
> 
> 
> No chance...


sir thing is rafale is the best fighter for IAF MRCA/medium multi role as a single rafafle in a single sortie can do job of a growler and a fully laden F-A-18E/F in SEAD/DEAD and limited air interception role plus IAF needs a twin engine medium wieght for SEAD and DEAD & deep strike roles mainly which dosent needs armed escorts so rafale is what both IAF and now IN AF want for its IAC1

as for US fighter sure either F18 or F16 will come but most propabally its gonna be F16s

as for RAM coating and all that well rafale can carry 9.5 tonne on 14 hard points and take care of its own deu to its SPECTRA suite which is more powerfull in engaging and confising enemy radars than any ammout of RAM but even then who told you rafale cant have RAM coatings aswell ... any link

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## Taimur Khurram

Khan Sahab said:


> Pakistan doesn't have the political leverage to convince Russia to sell us Su-35. Russia won't do anything which can possibly irk India, like it or not.



Pakistan is listed as one of the Sukhoi's potential customers.


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## GURU DUTT

HAIDER said:


> Arabi Shiekh hoshyar hoga haaan.....ab kuch nahi dataa...


but even now window is open if PA agrees to saudi plan who knows former saudi upgraded F15s and maybe even upgraded typhoons in PAF just might be a reality


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## fatman17

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> We are more likely to get used Eagles, in the Strike Eagle configuration from KSA. These can then be upgraded to meet the Pakistani long range strike requirement.



Never happen

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## Shareef

GURU DUTT said:


> but even now window is open if PA agrees to saudi plan who knows former saudi upgraded F15s and maybe even upgraded typhoons in PAF just might be a reality


Has Saudi Arabia or any Gulf Country financed any fighter aircraft acquisition by PAF till now ??


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## Basel

dsr478 said:


> Pakistan is listed as one of the Sukhoi's potential customers.



Please share that list and link.

Although any one of Su-35 & EFT is possible for PAF if they have decided to purchase one of them upto 40 in numbers.


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## New World

Major 13625 said:


> pak is lagging behind they need it urgent


@Slav Defence @waz @Admin
Post#325 
Sir(s): can you tell me what is wrong in his comment that he got Negative Rating...

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## Ultima Thule

dsr478 said:


> Pakistan is listed as one of the Sukhoi's potential customers.


Su-35 chance is slim for PAF its might be J-10c-d or EF2000


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## Mysticbuddy

HAIDER said:


> EF is 140 million a piece ....Pakistan can t pay 470 million for new F16 ...


That too naked....


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## CHI RULES

Centurion2016 said:


> Warning 're russian fighters are very robust and some key aspects better than western fighters mainly agility twr load and range. And half the price.
> 
> But very maintenance intensive and half the flying hours life times .
> 
> Pakistanis are beginning to see this in their thunders already with a Labour intensive engine's.
> 
> The USA fighters now have massive sanctions threat USA is literally a ally of India ..so that's making relying on USA very dangerous in future for Pakistan.
> 
> This leaves Europe. Or China
> 
> Europe you need to have massive pockets as India is finding out now with rafale..
> 
> Back to China I guess more thunders with chinease engine and possibly vanguards



Sir, PAF is quite satisfied with JF17 engine. Further the Su35 is next level jet as compared to previous versions and appears to be less labour intensive. Most of the problems are faced by Indian SU30 flankers as they are mix of different hardware and techs of different countries which are not compatible with each other along with unreliable engines.

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## volatile

In any case F15 requires US approval both at congress and presidential level plus Infrastructure requirement means more US dependence also US in not in a mood to supply any weapons against India. Mig 35 is a real dark horse with very low $/hours but capabilities are some thing to be seen ,Sukhoi corporation has defined PAF as potential customers for SU35 that cancels any chance of Indian Leverage or any thing , EF2000 hmmm i am little confused over it as it appears to be very strong candidate but Rafale n EF2000 are almost in the same league so 1 to 1 basis are requires seems not a wise decision

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## New World

GURU DUTT said:


> sir thing is rafale is the best fighter for IAF MRCA/medium multi role as a single rafafle in a single sortie can do job of a growler and a fully laden F-A-18E/F in SEAD/DEAD and limited air interception role plus IAF needs a twin engine medium wieght for SEAD and DEAD & deep strike roles mainly which dosent needs armed escorts so rafale is what both IAF and now IN AF want for its IAC1
> 
> as for US fighter sure either F18 or F16 will come but most propabally its gonna be F16s
> 
> as for RAM coating and all that well rafale can carry 9.5 tonne on 14 hard points and take care of its own deu to its SPECTRA suite which is more powerfull in engaging and confising enemy radars than any ammout of RAM but even then who told you rafale cant have RAM coatings aswell ... any link



Sir, but mostly indian here and even in indian media call F-16 junk.. the 3rd generation etc.... 
how can india will purchase this junk jet..

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## Bilal Khan 777

New World said:


> Sir, but mostly indian here and even in indian media call F-16 junk.. the 3rd generation etc....
> how can india will purchase this junk jet..



Indians call everything Junk which they cannot or have not bought. To them, and operational aircraft is junk, but all their aircraft are made of Platinum. I wish I could post the SV index on here! Indian public is kept in dark, otherwise the amount of democracy that prevails in India, their service chiefs would be resigning every quarter.

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## Centurion2016

So 27 pages
250 POSTERS
5000 suggestions

From mine of 40 used block 15/20 FROM A NON USA ally al the way to a Arab funded Typhoon order..

HAVE WE CONCLUDED ANYTHING

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## Blue Marlin

i have just had a thought. if one were to buy a lot of eft's why dont one buy 2 squadrons [36] of efts and you can buy used tranche1's which can be upgraded to 3a variant later this is a cheaper method to buy high tech planes. also this would mean the mod would fund the tranche 3b which can be purchased as options and other birds can be upgraded to later on

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## Piper

New World said:


> Sir, but mostly indian here and even in indian media call F-16 junk.. the 3rd generation etc....
> how can india will purchase this junk jet..



Give me an example or quotation from Indian media calling F-16 junk? AFAIK IAF holds F-16 in great esteem and are highly respectful of PAF flying those jets.

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## Stephen Cohen

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Indian public is kept in dark, otherwise the amount of democracy that prevails in India, their service chiefs would be resigning every quarter.



Could you please elaborate ; why would Indian chiefs resign



New World said:


> Sir, but mostly indian here and even in indian media call F-16 junk.. the 3rd generation etc....
> how can india will purchase this junk jet..



The block 52 and above are very good planes

We will purchase Block 60 + or F 16 IN

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Centurion2016 said:


> So 27 pages
> 250 POSTERS
> 5000 suggestions
> 
> From mine of 40 used block 15/20 FROM A NON USA ally al the way to a Arab funded Typhoon order..
> 
> HAVE WE CONCLUDED ANYTHING



Well. I think we should wait for few months, may be we'll know what is going on PAF minds. I have read somewhere, probably on this forum, that among all three armed forces, PAF is more professional than Pak army or navy.

I m hoping whatever they'll decide, it will be good for them and Pakistan. Personally i will like PAF to have Typhoon or SU35, fighters that can take on Rafael.


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## zebra7

Stephen Cohen said:


> Could you please elaborate ; why would Indian chiefs resign



I think @Billal khan 777 account have been hacked. Don't understand he used to be very logical and knowledgeable person.



Stephen Cohen said:


> The block 52 and above are very good planes
> 
> We will purchase Block 60 + or F 16 IN



NEGATIVE. The technology transfer, lack of any US infrastucture, Munition, and qualification to fullfill the IAF role is more than enough to not enter the IAF service. However Boeing, and LM infacts wants to shift, the manufacturing lines to India, and also wants India, to market F-16 and F-18 in an international Market and offering Support and service in India, by utilizing Cheaper and trained labour of India, but wants to keep control of the manufacturing unit to themself. The RM have already stated that the offer is not excited.

In reality couple of fighter planes would be build in India -- which are SU-30 MKI, LCA Tejas Mk-1 and MK-2 Naval, and Combat Hawk.


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## Zarvan

Basel said:


> Please share that list and link.
> 
> Although any one of Su-35 & EFT is possible for PAF if they have decided to purchase one of them upto 40 in numbers.


Actually I talked to a friend and he says those 40 are SU-35 but he says Pakistan is also looking for one other type @Windjammer

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Centurion2016 said:


> So 27 pages
> 250 POSTERS
> 5000 suggestions
> 
> From mine of 40 used block 15/20 FROM A NON USA ally al the way to a Arab funded Typhoon order..
> 
> HAVE WE CONCLUDED ANYTHING



We concluded you are you new here

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## Djinn

pakistanipower said:


> is he in PAF think tank? why is telling to you PAF secret? *WAKE UP YOUR FAIRY TALES DREAM SIR *


Those friends are probably the ones who are running web and facebook based so-called "ThinkTanks". They have a habit of letting lose some fanciful secrets.

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Actually I talked to a friend and he says those 40 are SU-35 but he says Pakistan is also looking for one other type @Windjammer


What PAF is up to ?seems like lotto won by PAF


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## monitor

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.




My thoughts is if Saudi can fund Egypts Rafael as a partner and operator of EF2000 they can fund for this 40 EF2000 .other option is probably SU-35,

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## Tipu7

Zarvan said:


> Actually I talked to a friend and he says those 40 are SU-35 but he says Pakistan is also looking for one other type @Windjammer


You are even worse in protecting secrets than a dehati orat 
You should be wise enough to keep things limited to own stomach instead of announcing it on public forum ......

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## mingle

monitor said:


> My thoughts is if Saudi can fund Egypts Rafael as a partner and operator of EF2000 they can fund for this 40 EF2000 .other option is probably SU-35,


I agree if there is EF it will be by GCC help we cant handle it too expensive . But what zarven stated last post then we will go both SU family and EF with china and GCC .



Tipu7 said:


> You are even worse in protecting secrets than a dehati orat
> You should be wise enough to keep things limited to own stomach instead of announcing it on public forum ......


Why u saying u meant Pak is buying space shuttle something or U2 spy plane .?


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## Djinn

Tipu7 said:


> You are even worse in protecting secrets than a dehati orat
> You should be wise enough to keep things limited to own stomach instead of announcing it on public forum ......


He also claimed that Pakistan has rejected Z-10, while some else with authority on defence.pk has claimed that Pakistan is going to induct Z-10 in huge numbers. So who are you gonna believe man? All these claims are everything but secrets.


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> is he in PAF think tank? why is telling to you PAF secret? *WAKE UP YOUR FAIRY TALES DREAM SIR *


I have proven to be right in most cases and I am right in this case. INSHALLAH Pakistan will soon place order for 40 SU-35 and is looking for one another Fighter Jet.



Tipu7 said:


> You are even worse in protecting secrets than a dehati orat
> You should be wise enough to keep things limited to own stomach instead of announcing it on public forum ......


40 SU-35 is pretty much known to every one as for the other platform I didn't took any names. Haris Khan broke news of 40 Fighter Jets not me. Although I indicated this a year ago.



Djinn said:


> He also claimed that Pakistan has rejected Z-10, while some else with authority on defence.pk has claimed that Pakistan is going to induct Z-10 in huge numbers. So who are you gonna believe man? All these claims are everything but secrets.


I have proven to be dead accurate in most cades now as for Z-10 well it won't come until WZ-16 engine is fully ready

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## singlefighter

I think if pakistan wants to place an order for EFT then why not pakistan placing their order along with other gulf states,because when the order is on large scale the price goes down for example ,if Pakistan ,Kuwait,Qatar and Saudi arabia join in deal and go collective amount of 40 billion dollars deal then possibly the can get the manufacturing facility in the region and that will be obviously in Pakistan becoz no other arab countires has experience of manufacturing of aircraft but pakistan has aong history of rebuilding the aircraftlike F6 ,Mirage's and now JFT so we should go together and get a chance to experience of assembling world class EFT it will give us for experience of manufacturing and future designing of JFT so PAF must think on this point because that will also cut a few cast of jets

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> It's SU-35 Sir


what is your source i am asking to you a simple question respectfully sir just your assumption


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## mingle

pakistanipower said:


> Why he is so confirmed? It is like that he will decide what to buy and what not for PAF


What u want ?why dont u beleive what he saying ?i start this thread Haris is very authentic and there is long requirement of twin engine jet for CPEC and Gawader .t



Zarvan said:


> It's SU-35 Sir


First time Haris is not sure as well which type he thinks it could be SU 35 .U r front runner this time .J16 ,SU35 or EF 2000 .



Zarvan said:


> Actually I talked to a friend and he says those 40 are SU-35 but he says Pakistan is also looking for one other type @Windjammer


This new type is European or American or chines ?



singlefighter said:


> I think if pakistan wants to place an order for EFT then why not pakistan placing their order along with other gulf states,because when the order is on large scale the price goes down for example ,if Pakistan ,Kuwait,Qatar and Saudi arabia join in deal and go collective amount of 40 billion dollars deal then possibly the can get the manufacturing facility in the region and that will be obviously in Pakistan becoz no other arab countires has experience of manufacturing of aircraft but pakistan has aong history of rebuilding the aircraftlike F6 ,Mirage's and now JFT so we should go together and get a chance to experience of assembling world class EFT it will give us for experience of manufacturing and future designing of JFT so PAF must think on this point because that will also cut a few cast of jets


Yeh its good idea team up and place an order will bring price down win win for everyone .Mirage r phasing out so very soon Mirage rebuild factory has to go either replace by more jf17 manufactring or something .Natural replacemet for our Mirages were Rafale


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## Baidar Bakht

Zarvan said:


> Actually I talked to a friend and he says those 40 are SU-35 but he says Pakistan is also looking for one other type @Windjammer



PAF is looking for a next gen jet, so may be this "other" is our next gen program.


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## Zarvan

Baidar Bakht said:


> PAF is looking for a next gen jet, so may be this "other" is our next gen program.


No not next Generation. Next Generation won't come for at least next 8 years could be more we need to counter Rafale and other Indian Fighter Jets for that SU-35 would come and one more can come.


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## Trojan Horse

New World said:


> some years ago a news came that PAF is getting new latest J-10, and we waited for years but nothing came out..
> then another news came last year that PAF is going to get Su-35, and we waited almost a year but nothing came out..
> now new news are coming that PAF is going to get HighEnd 40 jets, and we will have to wait a year.. and hopes are high on nothing is coming...


 

yes. 100% true.


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## weqi

if suppose it is EFT then what will be the timeline for first EFT land pakistani ground ?? has anybody any clue about schedule o BAE for these


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## GURU DUTT

New World said:


> Sir, but mostly indian here and even in indian media call F-16 junk.. the 3rd generation etc....
> how can india will purchase this junk jet..


nobody called F16 a junk but sure a potent relic of the past as its reached its most potent upgrade level which many dought but are younanimus that there is little room left for further upgrade and has too many strings attached and we have example of pakistan for the same having said that there is one MRCA more on PMO & MOD radar for IAF other than rafale and it could either be F16V or F/A-18 E -F and maybe new relaxed FDI regime is for that purpose only but F16 is say the best 3.5-4-4.5or 4.5++ gen fighter in the market today too bad it does not have the range as a twin engined fighter which is IAFs primarry requirement



Shareef said:


> Has Saudi Arabia or any Gulf Country financed any fighter aircraft acquisition by PAF till now ??


no one knows for sure but rumours are plenty for the same who knows as they say "kabr ka haal to murda hi janata hai"

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## CHACHA"G"

*How many F15 C / D KSA have if they have over 60 is it possible to upgrade them with latest Radar and EW suits if yes then Are we having them ??? Is it 40 new birds and 40 old but upgraded ???????*


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## Muhammad Omar

CHACHA"G" said:


> *How many F15 C / D KSA have if they have over 60 is it possible to upgrade them with latest Radar and EW suits if yes then Are we having them ??? Is it 40 new birds and 40 old but upgraded ???????*



It's 40 New and 16 F-16 Second Hand From Jordan


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## Trojan Horse

Pakistan needs 290 jet fighters till 2020. So Pakistan should try to approach all forums to get jets. EF2000 is better choice for us as well as we should try to get SU-35 & MiG-35 also. And we should not ignore Chinese Jet fighters, try to get them also.


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## FNFAL

With no immediate threat, PAF would do well to well to swell its ranks with older F16s MLUed and JF17s- the HI-LO mix....
WHile wait for a mature 5th gen offering from china. Anything else is simply blowing not. worth it.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

@WebMaster please look into @queensoso1988 posts...


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## Ultima Thule

mingle said:


> What u want ?why dont u beleive what he saying ?i start this thread Haris is very authentic and there is long requirement of twin engine jet for CPEC and Gawader .t
> 
> 
> First time Haris is not sure as well which type he thinks it could be SU 35 .U r front runner this time .J16 ,SU35 or EF 2000 .
> 
> 
> This new type is European or American or chines ?
> 
> 
> Yeh its good idea team up and place an order will bring price down win win for everyone .Mirage r phasing out so very soon Mirage rebuild factory has to go either replace by more jf17 manufactring or something .Natural replacemet for our Mirages were Rafale


why he so confirm? its like that he will decide what to buy and what to not buy all senior members including @waz, @QWA, @Arsalan is always gussing, so why he is so confirm


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## Arsalan

GURU DUTT said:


> nobody called F16 a junk but sure a potent relic of the past as its reached its most potent upgrade level which many dought but are younanimus that there is little room left for further upgrade


Careful here, there were some talks of IAF getting F16. I know it is not a problem to change all that but still "log batain bnain gy". You may have to make F-16 as the worlds most advanced tech machine in some time, or perhaps F-18!!


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## GURU DUTT

Arsalan said:


> Careful here, there were some talks of IAF getting F16. I know it is not a problem to change all that but still "log batain bnain gy". You may have to make F-16 as the worlds most advanced tech machine in some time, or perhaps F-18!!


yes there is solid foundation to your claim and the recent 100% in FDI in defnce is a indicator to that as both Boeing and LM wanted to go alone in indian market under MII scheme and IAF is more than eager for both but there are two viewpoints aswell for whome to choose 

1.first offer by LM for falling numbers there are some 90 surplus USAF F-16 C/D to be upgraded with new engines and complete avionicks and radar upgrade to F16V level of which LM wants to upgrade 30% in USA and then remaining in india while tranferring whole assdeembally line and manufaturing infra to india and also make india the service destination/hub for further upgrades and spare supplies to the other international coustmors plus the prospects of F35 as and wwhen they are avilable 

2.instead going for FA-18 E/F from start but since boing doesnt have a 5th gen contender and rafale at same price is much much more potent there are doughts


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## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> yes there is solid foundation to your claim and the recent 100% in FDI in defnce is a indicator to that as both Boeing and LM wanted to go alone in indian market under MII scheme and IAF is more than eager for both but there are two viewpoints aswell for whome to choose
> 
> 1.first offer by LM for falling numbers there are some 90 surplus USAF F-16 C/D to be upgraded with new engines and complete avionicks and radar upgrade to F16V level of which LM wants to upgrade 30% in USA and then remaining in india while tranferring whole assdeembally line and manufaturing infra to india and also make india the service destination/hub for further upgrades and spare supplies to the other international coustmors plus the prospects of F35 as and wwhen they are avilable
> 
> 2.instead going for FA-18 E/F from start but since boing doesnt have a 5th gen contender and rafale at same price is much much more potent there are doughts


Sir.
The 90 F16's and 30 Rafale would complete the MMRCA requirements. 

The Israel Air Force F-16 SUFA are also put on sale because the IAF is going to take deliveries of F-35's this year. These can all end up in India. Increasing the numbers that are desperately needed in a two font war. However this would leave the Rafale and F-18's a non essential item for IAF. Not to mention added funds are proposed for the LCA so that it can be available as per demand. 

The F-35's will take an other 10-15 years till they become part of Indian Air Force.


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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir.
> The 90 F16's and 30 Rafale would complete the MMRCA requirements.
> 
> The Israel Air Force F-16 SUFA are also put on sale because the IAF is going to take deliveries of F-35's this year. These can all end up in India. Increasing the numbers that are desperately needed in a two font war. However this would leave the Rafale and F-18's a non essential item for IAF. Not to mention added funds are proposed for the LCA so that it can be available as per demand.
> 
> The F-35's will take an other 10-15 years till they become part of Indian Air Force.


no sir we need at least 25-35 full squads (18X25=450,630) frontline fighter jets as we are prepairing for a two front war while likes of F16s could be for the western sector while likes of rafale , MKI for north and north eastern sectors

now we alreay have say upgraded 60 Mig29s & 54 M2Ks and some 272 MKI(to be upgraded to super sukhoi level) which means 386 fighters (21 squads) and then there would be 36 (2squads)rafales meaning 422 frontline fightersmeaning 208 still less even if you take say 90 FGFA/PAKFA we still be short 118 fighters which could be F16V or FA18 

as for F35 well they might come for IN AF as russia still dosent have a naval version of T50 rest you can speculate yourself


----------



## Taimur Khurram

pakistanipower said:


> Su-35 chance is slim for PAF its might be J-10c-d or EF2000



Give me one good reason as to why I should believe Pakistan has even the slightest chance to get the Eurofighter.


----------



## jermankill

HI 
are we really buying new aircraft or its just fanboy ism



GURU DUTT said:


> yes there is solid foundation to your claim and the recent 100% in FDI in defnce is a indicator to that as both Boeing and LM wanted to go alone in indian market under MII scheme and IAF is more than eager for both but there are two viewpoints aswell for whome to choose
> 
> 1.first offer by LM for falling numbers there are some 90 surplus USAF F-16 C/D to be upgraded with new engines and complete avionicks and radar upgrade to F16V level of which LM wants to upgrade 30% in USA and then remaining in india while tranferring whole assdeembally line and manufaturing infra to india and also make india the service destination/hub for further upgrades and spare supplies to the other international coustmors plus the prospects of F35 as and wwhen they are avilable
> 
> 2.instead going for FA-18 E/F from start but since boing doesnt have a 5th gen contender and rafale at same price is much much more potent there are doughts


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## GURU DUTT

jermankill said:


> HI
> are we really buying new aircraft or its just fanboy ism


.... ye kya janab aate hi hit wicket 

welcome to PDF 2

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## jermankill

GURU DUTT said:


> .... ye kya janab aate hi hit wicket
> 
> welcome to PDF 2


thank you very much for this warm welcome..woh hit he kia jo hit na kary


----------



## GURU DUTT

jermankill said:


> thank you very much for this warm welcome..woh hit he kia jo hit na kary


well thats true but i guess most internet fanboys dream today as to what you pointed but dont want to talk about present state of affairs any way good luck

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## jermankill

well this is also true that Pakistan and Pakistani forces always give surprised to their enemy which they don't expect 
this time they do it again m sure ..


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## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> no sir we need at least 25-35 full squads (18X25=450,630) frontline fighter jets as we are prepairing for a two front war while likes of F16s could be for the western sector while likes of rafale , MKI for north and north eastern sectors
> 
> now we alreay have say upgraded 60 Mig29s & 54 M2Ks and some 272 MKI(to be upgraded to super sukhoi level) which means 386 fighters (21 squads) and then there would be 36 (2squads)rafales meaning 422 frontline fightersmeaning 208 still less even if you take say 90 FGFA/PAKFA we still be short 118 fighters which could be F16V or FA18
> 
> as for F35 well they might come for IN AF as russia still dosent have a naval version of T50 rest you can speculate yourself


GOOD...

Time for PAF to relax because how India works it would take 30 long years for all this to materialise....Case


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## jermankill

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> GOOD...
> 
> Time for PAF to relax because how India works it would take 30 long years for all this to materialise....Case


HI
what about more 30 +?????


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## ACE OF THE AIR

jermankill said:


> HI
> what about more 30 +?????


Expect some thing by Year 2050...


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## jermankill

hmm hope they will make some bold decision till that date


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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> GOOD...
> 
> Time for PAF to relax because how India works it would take 30 long years for all this to materialise....Case


well good for india if you think so as there is nothing better than an enemy who underestimates and downplays rise of its mortal enemy

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## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> well good for india if you think so as there is nothing better than an enemy who underestimates and downplays rise of its mortal enemy


Dont you worry Pakistan would have some surprises...

Mortal...we have not yet classified it to that...If it is done that would be the end of both...You know it as well.

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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Dont you worry Pakistan would have some surprises...
> 
> Mortal...we have not yet classified it to that...If it is done that would be the end of both...You know it as well.


we know what your doing already and where your heading and prepairing for it already as for the list i gave i know it hurts your ego to see india getting all that despite all the sacrifices you made for USA and its allies in the past 

thing is Upgrade of Mig29&M2Ks already underway 

there are at least 230 MKI already with us and after the order is complete super sukhoi MLU will commence 

PAKFA-Rafale deal already done in principal only paperwork is under process

as for american fighters well they are coming for sure that too with laets gen GaN based AESA and combined EW-ECM suites and latest gen weapons pakage that to of level of NATO nations and dont forget isralies and there active and passive help

cheers mate

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## jermankill

HI 
and u think our forces and establishment is sleeping ????? no?
tell me when u get all these toys which u talking about this and that.....


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## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> we know what your doing already and where your heading and prepairing for it already as for the list i gave i know it hurts your ego to see india getting all that despite all the sacrifices you made for USA and its allies in the past
> 
> thing is Upgrade of Mig29&M2Ks already underway
> 
> there are at least 230 MKI already with us and after the order is complete super sukhoi MLU will commence
> 
> PAKFA-Rafale deal already done in principal only paperwork is under process
> 
> as for american fighters well they are coming for sure that too with laets gen GaN based AESA and combined EW-ECM suites and latest gen weapons pakage that to of level of NATO nations and dont forget isralies and there active and passive help
> 
> cheers mate


Bohat teekha laga....

You are the one who is on fire hence such a reply...Pakistan never has EGO issues because they know how to over come their problems..A lesson India should take from Pakistan.

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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bohat teekha laga....
> 
> You are the one who is on fire hence such a reply...Pakistan never has EGO issues because they know how to over come their problems..A lesson India should take from Pakistan.


well you have an ego when you dont have to look towards friends not masters and other brotherly nations for help for your own economik survival ...if you know what i mean 

as for learning our lessons well we have already lernet them and doing and prepairng for them and world is supporting us while your nation is getting only rejections one after another every time they start singing me too me too like when india got the nuclear deal or MTCR or now NSG 

so dont worry we know what we are doing and what we are getting you should hope to do your work and god help yopu and good luck 

as for the topic of the thread mark my words its gonna be Mig29s

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## jermankill

GURU DUTT said:


> well you have an ego when you dont have to look towards friends not masters and other brotherly nations for help for your own economik survival ...if you know what i mean
> 
> as for learning our lessons well we have already lernet them and doing and prepairng for them and world is supporting us while your nation is getting only rejections one after another every time they start singing me too me too like when india got the nuclear deal or MTCR or now NSG
> 
> so dont worry we know what we are doing and what we are getting you should hope to do your work and god help yopu and good luck
> 
> as for the topic of the thread mark my words its gonna be Mig29s



HI 
this is not ego its interest ... u can call it whatever u want... and we had no interest in fighting others wars
which quoting indirectly ...
NSG when u get entry then we will talk so don't get excited before the party ... u spoiling all the fun.....

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## GURU DUTT

jermankill said:


> HI
> this is not ego its interest ... u can call it whatever u want... and we had no interest in fighting others wars
> which quoting indirectly ...
> NSG when u get entry then we will talk so don't get excited before the party ... u spoiling all the fun.....


thats the best reply of this thread quoted to me ... ok ji changa hunn Mig29 labho chetti chetti


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## wasileo80

That Guy said:


> I'll believe it when I see it.


It shoud be "I ll believe it when i see and when i see it i ll believe it"


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## jermankill

GURU DUTT said:


> thats the best reply of this thread quoted to me ... ok ji changa hunn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> te Mig29 labho chetti chetti



u must be kidding
if u have little common sense then u shud not talk like that otherwise.......


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## GURU DUTT

jermankill said:


> u must be kidding
> if u have little common sense then u shud not talk like that otherwise.......


what did i said ... are you threatning me


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## jermankill

are you threatning me [/QUOTE]

Hi do i need?

how can u say that we interstied in mig29?
are u PAF spokesperson ?


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## My-Analogous

GURU DUTT said:


> we know what your doing already and where your heading and prepairing for it already as for the list i gave i know it hurts your ego to see india getting all that despite all the sacrifices you made for USA and its allies in the past
> 
> thing is Upgrade of Mig29&M2Ks already underway
> 
> there are at least 230 MKI already with us and after the order is complete super sukhoi MLU will commence
> 
> PAKFA-Rafale deal already done in principal only paperwork is under process
> 
> as for american fighters well they are coming for sure that too with laets gen GaN based AESA and combined EW-ECM suites and latest gen weapons pakage that to of level of NATO nations and dont forget isralies and there active and passive help
> 
> cheers mate



Thank you for upgrading these birds for us and we will definitely use these birds against our enemies


----------



## jermankill

My-Analogous said:


> Thank you for upgrading these birds for us and we will definitely use these birds against our enemies


 Hi
we are not going to buy American birds direct {...}.. instead of some use f 16 and will upgrade in turkey 
and what he is saying IF LM divert their plant in India it will take a decade or so... till that time PAF will retire all his f 16 
so no chance


----------



## My-Analogous

jermankill said:


> Hi
> we are not going to buy American birds direct {...}.. instead of some use f 16 and will upgrade in turkey
> and what he is saying IF LM divert their plant in India it will take a decade or so... till that time PAF will retire all his f 16
> so no chance



I was talking about su30 and others and that was a joke


----------



## GURU DUTT

My-Analogous said:


> Thank you for upgrading these birds for us and we will definitely use these birds against our enemies


i dont get it arent PAF and IAF enemies already and these brids are upgraded for IAF use then how come its gonna be used against IAF


----------



## jermankill

My-Analogous said:


> I was talking about su30 and others and that was a joke


hmm 
ok then keep it up xD



GURU DUTT said:


> i dont get it arent PAF and IAF enemies already and these brids are upgraded for IAF use then how come its gonna be used against IAF



Hi
we will send our Spy pigeon to hack ur software from this plan and will use it against u

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## Wolf

GURU DUTT said:


> well you have an ego when you dont have to look towards friends not masters and other brotherly nations for help for your own economik survival ...if you know what i mean
> 
> as for learning our lessons well we have already lernet them and doing and prepairng for them and world is supporting us while your nation is getting only rejections one after another every time they start singing me too me too like when india got the nuclear deal or MTCR or now NSG
> 
> so dont worry we know what we are doing and what we are getting you should hope to do your work and god help yopu and good luck
> 
> as for the topic of the thread mark my words its gonna be Mig29s


So despite so much accolades from world powers who are dancing to Indian Bollywood tunes, are u getting into NSG?
There is same old rant, we are getting this, we are getting that. Tell me when u will get it.

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## Ultima Thule

dsr478 said:


> Give me one good reason as to why I should believe Pakistan has even the slightest chance to get the Eurofighter.


go to previous pages other senior member like @waz ,@Bilal Khan 777, @QWA, @Arsalan is stated we can get EF2000
from Italy and UK with relatively easily and don't forget PAF like western weapons and give one good reason that we are getting Su-35 its maintenance intensive nightmare



GURU DUTT said:


> well good for india if you think so as there is nothing better than an enemy who underestimates and downplays rise of its mortal enemy


yes he is bashing now

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## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> well you have an ego when you dont have to look towards friends not masters and other brotherly nations for help for your own economik survival ...if you know what i mean


Which friends are you talking about? 
*China*
Pakistan is constructing a route that would allow China to transport her products to Africa, Middle East and Europe through Gawadar and Karachi ports. CPEC is being constructed on a mutual agreement that would allow bot the countries to develop as well as economies to grow. 

*Iran *
Pakistan is already trading partner but most of the good are being smuggled so border management is required. For this Pakistan is going to construct gates at places where they were none.

*Afghanistan*
Pakistan is the biggest trading partner of Afghanistan, this trade would increase once the Taliban and Government of Afghanistan stop fighting together. 

*Central Asian Republics*
Pakistan is already exporting various items to these countries. Soon electricity and other deals would be made with these countries as the situation in Afghanistan is stabilised.

*GCC Countries*
Pakistan buys all her fuel and now CNG from these countries and in return Pakistan supplies them with agricultural products. Pakistan also exports meat to these countries. 

If you think that Pakistan's relations with these countries staled because Pakistan did not enter the war in Yemen then you know nothing regarding Pakistan. Pakistan would never fight a War with and other Muslim Country unless that country attacked Pakistan first. This point was accepted by all the member states of GCC countries thus there is no problem. 

*Turkey*
One nation two countries...This statement is enough.

The list goes on...This was enough for your PM to run to these countries trying to back stab Pakistan...At the end what did he earl from these trips? 



GURU DUTT said:


> as for learning our lessons well we have already lernet them and doing and prepairng for them and world is supporting us while your nation is getting only rejections one after another every time they start singing me too me too like when india got the nuclear deal or MTCR or now NSG


Its simple we have our priorities you have your. If one sees that the other has a valid point which can be used to nullify the others gains both India and Pakistan do not miss this opportunity. 

After all Enemies are always countering the others advantage and also appreciate others when they use some better technique. 



GURU DUTT said:


> so dont worry we know what we are doing and what we are getting you should hope to do your work and god help yopu and good luck


We also know what you are doing and how to counter...



GURU DUTT said:


> as for the topic of the thread mark my words its gonna be Mig29s


OHH brother not this Mig29....
It is SU35 and F-16's so far but some other options are also being looked at in case the F-16's deal does not go trough.

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## volatile

I have a feeling Jh7 can also be a serious contender remmember Pak placed an order after show of strength by Chinese Sub which remain undetected in Arabian sea ,Now 1 or 2 days back JH7 has done some thing similar demonstration of superior electronics .

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## CHI RULES

volatile said:


> I have a feeling Jh7 can also be a serious contender remmember Pak placed an order after show of strength by Chinese Sub which remain undetected in Arabian sea ,Now 1 or 2 days back JH7 has done some thing similar demonstration of superior electronics .



JH7 not a stealthy jet, the above news looks exaggeration.


----------



## Bilal Khan 777

volatile said:


> I have a feeling Jh7 can also be a serious contender remmember Pak placed an order after show of strength by Chinese Sub which remain undetected in Arabian sea ,Now 1 or 2 days back JH7 has done some thing similar demonstration of superior electronics .



EW can make you do interesting things.



pakistanipower said:


> go to previous pages other senior member like @waz ,@Bilal Khan 777, @QWA, @Arsalan is stated we can get EF2000
> from Italy and UK with relatively easily and don't forget PAF like western weapons and give one good reason that we are getting Su-35 its maintenance intensive nightmare
> 
> 
> yes he is bashing now



Pakistan can have the EFT, Pakistan wishes to, because the weapon and sensor suite that comes with EFT is too good to ignore. However, till the time PAF figures out how to structure the deal to satisfy BAE Systems MAI due diligence and anti corruption regulations, there is no chance of EFT coming to Pakistan. I personally feel EFT is a great candidate for the deep strike requirement of PAF, as the MIRV goes out, however, in the world of strat weapons, all the doctrines we wrote and practised are obsolete. Will a EFT ever fly with a PAF roundel? It is very hard to speculate. For now, it will be a JFT and F16 mix, as Mirages slowly come to a roundabout near you.

Typoon Sounds like a a good idea but as we are addicted to the Chinese sellers credit, it is possible that we put our future eggs in a Chinese/Turkish combination for the Gen 5 aircraft.

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## volatile

CHI RULES said:


> JH7 not a stealthy jet, the above news looks exaggeration.


This is authentic news it stayed more than 107 min in Indian territory also JH7 role is like growler and precision ground strike .


----------



## Quwa

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> EW can make you do interesting things.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan can have the EFT, Pakistan wishes to, because the weapon and sensor suite that comes with EFT is too good to ignore. However, till the time PAF figures out how to structure the deal to satisfy BAE Systems MAI due diligence and anti corruption regulations, there is no chance of EFT coming to Pakistan. I personally feel EFT is a great candidate for the deep strike requirement of PAF, as the MIRV goes out, however, in the world of strat weapons, all the doctrines we wrote and practised are obsolete. Will a EFT ever fly with a PAF roundel? It is very hard to speculate. For now, it will be a JFT and F16 mix, as Mirages slowly come to a roundabout near you.
> 
> Typoon Sounds like a a good idea but as we are addicted to the Chinese sellers credit, it is possible that we put our future eggs in a Chinese/Turkish combination for the Gen 5 aircraft.


All things considered, JH-7 wouldn't be a bad option. It isn't a fighter, but if we look at the JF-17 as the interceptor and tactical attack fighter, the JH-7 can be our standoff weapon truck. It could probably carry Ra'ad too.


----------



## Imtiaz_Sarwar

Lets not count chickens before they are hatched. Once the planes land on our soil, then we can say that some thing concrete has happened.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> all the doctrines we wrote and practised are obsolete.


Sir, 
Do you not consider that these doctrines would be updated by PAF? 
Do you think there is no person in PAKISTAN that can be Honest? There are ways to get these aircraft if crook does not work then hook might...

Indeed the EFT with all the advanced equipment is the best available fighter aircraft for PAF's entire spectrum hence PAF should try to find a solution.



Quwa said:


> All things considered, JH-7 wouldn't be a bad option. It isn't a fighter, but if we look at the JF-17 as the interceptor and tactical attack fighter, the JH-7 can be our standoff weapon truck. It could probably carry Ra'ad too.


It could potentially work but fighter escort is still required putting more stress on F-16's. F-17 can not do it because of limited fuel for the role of deep strike.


----------



## Wolf

volatile said:


> I have a feeling Jh7 can also be a serious contender remmember Pak placed an order after show of strength by Chinese Sub which remain undetected in Arabian sea ,Now 1 or 2 days back JH7 has done some thing similar demonstration of superior electronics .


If it has completed this feat then I would say " go for one squadron at least"


----------



## danger007

volatile said:


> This is authentic news it stayed more than 107 min in Indian territory also JH7 role is like growler and precision ground strike .




stayed 107min???.. are you comparing growler to JH7 ..


----------



## Mysticbuddy

volatile said:


> This is authentic news it stayed more than 107 min in Indian territory also JH7 role is like growler and precision ground strike .


I guess this will be my last post ever if I contradicted with this


----------



## Ultima Thule

Quwa said:


> All things considered, JH-7 wouldn't be a bad option. It isn't a fighter, but if we look at the JF-17 as the interceptor and tactical attack fighter, the JH-7 can be our standoff weapon truck. It could probably carry Ra'ad too.


no sir we don't want to induct single role fighter bomber, we need multi-role fighter like SU-35, EF2000, J-10c-d


----------



## HAIDER

Almost close to 500 response , still undecided about new plane ?


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## jermankill

HAIDER said:


> Almost close to 500 response , still undecided about new plane ?


Hi
who gonna decide? defence.pk?


----------



## PaklovesTurkiye

HAIDER said:


> Almost close to 500 response , still undecided about new plane ?



I think Pakistan should give Europe a chance now. We have bought Americans, Chinese so many times. How about getting our hands on beautiful yet deadly European toys......


----------



## Centurion2016

Numbers and options are going up daily

We started with 8 Block 52 with partial grant aid about a month ago

Then it went to second used F16 from Jordan for next to free with MLU eventually

Then THE SU35 x 40

Then the EURO FIGHTER ( the best of the lot) this week.

Now I hear its both Typhoons & F16s

PAF are really pushing the boat out


----------



## sims1729

India should buy JF-17 and Pakistan should buy LCA tejas.... may be then both countries would see the stupidity of it all..feed ur hungry people first

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## volatile

With unit cost of JH7B over 60 Mil a piece will be a competitor against J10C but dual engine more load carrying capacity so probabl


Mysticbuddy said:


> I guess this will be my last post ever if I contradicted with this



For Unit price please see
http://nationsdawnofanera.weebly.com/-bomber--attack-aircraft.html










danger007 said:


> stayed 107min???.. are you comparing growler to JH7 ..



Chinese version of Growler

https://chinadailymail.com/2015/08/...-shoot-down-stealth-aircraft-at-medium-range/
I hope this will answer your query


----------



## danger007

volatile said:


> With unit cost of JH7B over 60 Mil a piece will be a competitor against J10C but dual engine more load carrying capacity so probabl
> 
> 
> For Unit price please see
> http://nationsdawnofanera.weebly.com/-bomber--attack-aircraft.html
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 312360
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese version of Growler
> 
> https://chinadailymail.com/2015/08/...-shoot-down-stealth-aircraft-at-medium-range/
> I hope this will answer your query




You said stayed 107min in Indian territory.. please provide source..


----------



## HAIDER

jermankill said:


> Hi
> who gonna decide? defence.pk?


Yup..seems like it....


----------



## volatile

danger007 said:


> You said stayed 107min in Indian territory.. please provide source..


Yes it is advertised on Defence pk face book page as well


----------



## ghauri05

waz said:


> Typhoon yes, SU-35 no. India will kick up a mighty fuss. You have to remember that India has tens of billions of deals in the pipeline, money that Pakistan cannot match and Russia cannot afford to lose. Money talks BS walks.....


Yes india has billion of $$$ deal with Russia....the argument that says...Russia needs money ..and it can not loose these billions of dollors..can also b translated in this way
Russia needs money and it will earn it from which ever country it wants
Russia is already doing business with Pak 

and the other thing is...when u say indo-russia...billions of dollars deals...it's india who is dependant on Russia for these projects not otherwise...Russia only needs money..it can earn it from china...pak and any other country in the world
but those projects are necessary for indian needs not russian

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## Taimur Khurram

pakistanipower said:


> go to previous pages other senior member like @waz ,@Bilal Khan 777, @QWA, @Arsalan is stated we can get EF2000
> from Italy and UK with relatively easily and don't forget PAF like western weapons and give one good reason that we are getting Su-35 its maintenance intensive nightmare
> 
> 
> yes he is bashing now



Mate, do you know how much the Eurofighter costs? Also, if they wouldn't sell it to India, what makes us so different?


----------



## danger007

volatile said:


> Yes it is advertised on Defence pk face book pagee as well



post me source.. 
are you sure about it??? do you know staying inside Indian territory for 107min means??? @waz


----------



## jermankill

HAIDER said:


> Yup..seems like it....



then we shud not stop bfor Mighty F22 Raptor


----------



## Ultima Thule

dsr478 said:


> Mate, do you know how much the Eurofighter costs? Also, if they wouldn't sell it to India, what makes us so different?


if it is not EF2000 nor its Su-35 may be its J-series from china let wait and see


----------



## Beethoven

I think i read this somewhere on this forum and believe me it was from a very knowledgeable member he said and am paraphrasing "If PAF had their way they would always select an option from the west before opting for something that comes from either China or Russia" and believe me EFT is the best of the lot....lets not f@$k this up this time seal the deal


----------



## volatile

danger007 said:


> post me source..
> are you sure about it??? do you know staying inside Indian territory for 107min means??? @waz

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## danger007

volatile said:


>




so you just believed it blindly , thinking it is a stealthy bomber to disappear??? don't you think, your post is silly .... @Abingdonboy @JD_In @jbgt90


----------



## Imran Khan

you guys still enjoying this thread really funny man

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## danger007

volatile said:


> Yes it is hilarious ,FB sources are some how weak if there is no credible page sharing it wait for few days we will have a link as well ,In the mean time Chinese Sub went all the way from China crossed Indian waters and docked in Karachi (So submersion for days already happened ) in this case it is 117 min so quite plausible





there is a thing called Hostile territory.. Subs is different from Jets .. 

@MastanKhan


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Enemy aircraft you can take out---but subs---you can't do much.

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## Taimur Khurram

pakistanipower said:


> if it is not EF2000 nor its Su-35 may be its J-series from china let wait and see



Most likely, I'm betting on the J-10.


----------



## Ultima Thule

dsr478 said:


> Most likely, I'm betting on the J-10.


most probably, its J-10C-D


----------



## optimisticlad

this thread is created on mere speculations just to provide a time pass thread for members in Ramadan....Everybody was bored so at least this thread kept us involved for a couple of days...
we need more rumor based thread to get through the tough fasting time...


----------



## Taimur Khurram

pakistanipower said:


> most probably, its J-10C-D



Inshallah.


----------



## optimisticlad

J 10b or c which ever is available is the most suitable option but PAF is showing unnecessary concerns for engine flame outs...
over 240 J 10s are in service which is not a joke....Engine issues will be fixed after all chinese are not dumb like us...


----------



## Tipu7

Did you guys even bothered to read the first post ? 




optimisticlad said:


> J 10b or c which ever is available is the most suitable option but PAF is showing unnecessary concerns for engine flame outs...
> over 240 J 10s are in service which is not a joke....Engine issues will be fixed after all chinese are not dumb like us...





dsr478 said:


> Inshallah.





pakistanipower said:


> most probably, its J-10C-D





dsr478 said:


> Most likely, I'm betting on the J-10.

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## Ultima Thule

Tipu7 said:


> Did you guys even bothered to read the first post ?


yes sir but EF2000 too expensive and string attach to it Su-35 no chance because indian influence and maintainance intensive nightmare,the only option left for PAF is the J series from china, thank you sir

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## Tipu7

I will appreciate if you don't enlighten this thread readers with your wisdom from further on .........



pakistanipower said:


> yes sir but EF2000 too expensive and string attach to it Su-35 no chance because indian influence and maintainance intensive nightmare,the only option left for PAF is the J series from china, thank you sir

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## Ultima Thule

Tipu7 said:


> I will appreciate if you don't enlighten this thread readers with your wisdom from further on .........


What wisdom? Can you explain to me sir?


----------



## aliyusuf

pakistanipower said:


> yes sir but EF2000 too expensive and string attach to it Su-35 no chance because indian influence and maintainance intensive nightmare,the only option left for PAF is the J series from china, thank you sir



Good post, makes sense.

In my humble opinion ... some people are underestimating the J-10C. The AL-31FN Series 3 engine that powers the J-10B and J-10C is a marked improvement in performance (137kN / 30,800lbs w/AB) and stability than the previous models of the AL-31F. Plus its AESA radar (new), Avionics, Integrated Electro-Optical System, IRST etc. are all pretty impressive and available right now ... unlike the JF-17 block-III or even later blocks (if and when they are realized) ... which are still several years to reality. Even when we get these newer Thunders ... I doubt they will equal the J-10C let alone surpass.

Considering the growing Indian influence in US Congress in particular and the West in general and what has subsequently transpired with the 8 new Block-52 deal ... it is now imperative that a contingency (Plan-B) should be in place. The J-10C is a good plan-b. The issue with the flanker-derivatives have never been the cost of acquisition but the cost of operation and maintenance (quite expensive) and also being subject to the approval of the Russians.

The SU-35 if it ever is in the PAF crosshairs for their next fighter, then they would only pursue it in a China-Russia-Pakistan combo agreement. In that context the Indian influence is not that daunting as China has way more sway over Russia than India ... as it already has a trillion+ USD in energy purchases in deals ranging over a period of 30 years. That is an approximate influx of 40 billion USD in average into Russian economy per annum.

http://globalriskinsights.com/2016/03/russia-china-continue-forge-energy-ties/

This is not even counting the military deals have been made between the two.

*Everything is speculation at the moment* and it all depends on the possible permutation and combinations of the variables that are involved in such deals.

So lets see how the cookie crumbles and what fighter gets selected.

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## Taimur Khurram

Tipu7 said:


> Did you guys even bothered to read the first post ?



Oh yeah I forgot he said no Chinese or American planes. 

Alright then, Su-35 for sure. Either that or this post is complete nonsense.


----------



## SQ8

Haris Khan is like the Tahir ul Qadri of the Pakistani Defence Discussion groups.

Unless Asif Ali Zardari decides to donate to the Pakistani military and buy 65 Rafales (_which he probably can afford on his own .. or with a little help from his buddy Malik Riaz, or some generous Urbi donation_); the PAF is sticking to 150 JF-17's, 80 F-16s and 45-50 F-7PGs until it gets a 5th Gen jet. I told you folks this on a VERY solid authority back in 2011, and it is still true today. 

The rest is all smoke and mirrors to divert from the development in force multipliers and EW sophistication. The only thing that could change this scenario is India gaining information on all our programs and systems which drives them nuts into getting even more Jets in numbers; that would force us to try and spend billions in offsetting that changed equation.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If it is not American or Chinese option for now

It can only be

Saab -> Gripen
French-> Rafale
UK -> Typhoon
Italy -> Typhoon


Mav3rick said:


> Highly unlikely. Why would PAF go for any new platform until India actually procures Rafael.




And why would or should we wait untill India does something we have our own policy for Modernization, they can fly the elephant for all we care


----------



## GURU DUTT

Wolf said:


> So despite so much accolades from world powers who are dancing to Indian Bollywood tunes, are u getting into NSG?
> There is same old rant, we are getting this, we are getting that. Tell me when u will get it.


so what its still going on and we indians know how to get things done but whats your achievement in it 

but for your information we are already getting latest civil and daul use nuclear technology and uranium and other fissle materials from Australia, Canada, USA , UK , France , Germany , Japan and Russia and kazakistan even when we are not part of NSG and 45 out of 47 NSG members are supporting us while USA has put all its wieght behind us what is your place in international community now and where do the same nations i wrote support your cause as compared to india 

for a nation which doesnt have done genral population census in last 1.5 decades and where 4 out of 10 people are forced to live in acute poverty , where 95% of nations wealth and lands are controlled by not even 1% of the population is trying to make fun of india a nation which has fasted growing economy and is largest FDI destination ... funny na 



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Which friends are you talking about?
> *China*
> Pakistan is constructing a route that would allow China to transport her products to Africa, Middle East and Europe through Gawadar and Karachi ports. CPEC is being constructed on a mutual agreement that would allow bot the countries to develop as well as economies to grow.
> 
> *Iran *
> Pakistan is already trading partner but most of the good are being smuggled so border management is required. For this Pakistan is going to construct gates at places where they were none.
> 
> *Afghanistan*
> Pakistan is the biggest trading partner of Afghanistan, this trade would increase once the Taliban and Government of Afghanistan stop fighting together.
> 
> *Central Asian Republics*
> Pakistan is already exporting various items to these countries. Soon electricity and other deals would be made with these countries as the situation in Afghanistan is stabilised.
> 
> *GCC Countries*
> Pakistan buys all her fuel and now CNG from these countries and in return Pakistan supplies them with agricultural products. Pakistan also exports meat to these countries.
> 
> If you think that Pakistan's relations with these countries staled because Pakistan did not enter the war in Yemen then you know nothing regarding Pakistan. Pakistan would never fight a War with and other Muslim Country unless that country attacked Pakistan first. This point was accepted by all the member states of GCC countries thus there is no problem.
> 
> *Turkey*
> One nation two countries...This statement is enough.
> 
> The list goes on...This was enough for your PM to run to these countries trying to back stab Pakistan...At the end what did he earl from these trips?
> 
> 
> Its simple we have our priorities you have your. If one sees that the other has a valid point which can be used to nullify the others gains both India and Pakistan do not miss this opportunity.
> 
> After all Enemies are always countering the others advantage and also appreciate others when they use some better technique.
> 
> 
> We also know what you are doing and how to counter...
> 
> 
> OHH brother not this Mig29....
> It is SU35 and F-16's so far but some other options are also being looked at in case the F-16's deal does not go trough.





ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Which friends are you talking about?
> *China*
> Pakistan is constructing a route that would allow China to transport her products to Africa, Middle East and Europe through Gawadar and Karachi ports. CPEC is being constructed on a mutual agreement that would allow bot the countries to develop as well as economies to grow.
> 
> *Iran *
> Pakistan is already trading partner but most of the good are being smuggled so border management is required. For this Pakistan is going to construct gates at places where they were none.
> 
> *Afghanistan*
> Pakistan is the biggest trading partner of Afghanistan, this trade would increase once the Taliban and Government of Afghanistan stop fighting together.
> 
> *Central Asian Republics*
> Pakistan is already exporting various items to these countries. Soon electricity and other deals would be made with these countries as the situation in Afghanistan is stabilised.
> 
> *GCC Countries*
> Pakistan buys all her fuel and now CNG from these countries and in return Pakistan supplies them with agricultural products. Pakistan also exports meat to these countries.
> 
> If you think that Pakistan's relations with these countries staled because Pakistan did not enter the war in Yemen then you know nothing regarding Pakistan. Pakistan would never fight a War with and other Muslim Country unless that country attacked Pakistan first. This point was accepted by all the member states of GCC countries thus there is no problem.
> 
> *Turkey*
> One nation two countries...This statement is enough.
> 
> The list goes on...This was enough for your PM to run to these countries trying to back stab Pakistan...At the end what did he earl from these trips?
> 
> 
> Its simple we have our priorities you have your. If one sees that the other has a valid point which can be used to nullify the others gains both India and Pakistan do not miss this opportunity.
> 
> After all Enemies are always countering the others advantage and also appreciate others when they use some better technique.
> 
> 
> We also know what you are doing and how to counter...
> 
> 
> OHH brother not this Mig29....
> It is SU35 and F-16's so far but some other options are also being looked at in case the F-16's deal does not go trough.


well dear thing is you know it and i know it and as for that matter all members on PDF know it that pakistan cant buy any fighter outright with hard cash and needs support, subsidies and soft loans to buy these weapons and niether makers of Su35, or typhoon or grippen or rafale give such finance shemes so tell me what option your left with

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## optimisticlad

Tipu7 said:


> Did you guys even bothered to read the first post ?


yes


----------



## weqi

onther made in india news for F-16 and F-18


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/made-in-india-f16s-on-radar-thanks-to-fdi/article8756876.ece


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## Arsalan

pakistanipower said:


> go to previous pages other senior member like @waz ,@Bilal Khan 777, @QWA, @Arsalan is stated we can get EF2000
> from Italy and UK with relatively easily and don't forget PAF like western weapons and give one good reason that we are getting Su-35 its maintenance intensive nightmare
> 
> 
> yes he is bashing now


Ooh bahi!! 
NOT ME!! 
Plus there is a difference between CAN and WILL.
I am not sure EF is something we would want to go for right now or should go for right now.



CHI RULES said:


> JH7 not a stealthy jet, the above news looks exaggeration.


Electronic Warfare!! 
One thing that interests me in JH7. It is more or less the growler of PLAAF and would be an interesting prospect. Even if we do not got for this, getting some goodies incorporated in our future JF17s would work well for us.


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## volatile

danger007 said:


> there is a thing called Hostile territory.. Subs is different from Jets ..





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Enemy aircraft you can take out---but subs---you can't do much.


What i meant is reflecting superior design and Electronics before ordering


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## danger007

volatile said:


> What i meant is reflecting superior design and Electronics before ordering




can you please elaborate superior design..


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## volatile

danger007 said:


> can you please elaborate superior design..



*JH-7 fighter bomber variants*
The JH-7 fighter bomber has four variants namely JH-7A, JH-7B, FBC-1 Flying Leopard and FBC-1A Flying Leopard II.

The JH-7A is an upgraded version of the original JH-7 aircraft. JH-7A is the first aircraft designed with CAD or CAM CATIA V.5 software. This variant is additionally equipped with digital fly by wire controls, ventral fins, a glass cockpit and a single piece windscreen. The number of hard points in the variant is increased to 11.
*
The JH-7B is an advanced version of JH-7A. It has stealthier features compared to JH-7A.*

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/xianjh7fighterbomber/

*Xian’s final design bore a broad resemblance to the SEPECAT Jaguar or JUROM IAR-93 Orao, although it is much larger than either, about the size of a F-4 Phantom. The high-wing configuration is ideal for its primary mission of low-level attack. The wing is swept and tapered with pronounced anhedral and features large trailing-edge flaps, but no leading edge devices. An aerodynamic fence is located at roughly 2/3 of span. The fuselage is relatively square-cornered, like a Tornado, and is waisted at the wing junction. The two crew sit in a tandem cockpit with individual canopies, ahead of simple fixed engine intakes. The rough-field undercarriage, with twin main wheels and trailing-link oleos, is clearly inspired by the units on the Jaguar. A swept vertical tail, and deep fixed ventral fin provide lateral stability, while the tailplane is all-moving.*

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/tag/jh-7

Any thing else i can do for you ?

Here is the complete article already running in Indian section .Indina media report 

https://defence.pk/threads/another-...iolates-indias-airspace-in-aksai-chin.435702/


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## danger007

volatile said:


> *JH-7 fighter bomber varias*
> The JH-7 fighter bomber has four variants namely JH-7A, JH-7B, FBC-1 Flying Leopard and FBC-1A Flying Leopard II.
> 
> The JH-7A is an upgraded version of the original JH-7 aircraft. JH-7A is the first aircraft designed with CAD or CAM CATIA V.5 software. This variant is additionally equipped with digital fly by wire controls, ventral fins, a glass cockpit and a single piece windscreen. The number of hard points in the variant is increased to 11.
> *
> The JH-7B is an advanced version of JH-7A. It has stealthier features compared to JH-7A.*
> 
> http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/xianjh7fighterbomber/
> 
> *Xian’s final design bore a broad resemblance to the SEPECAT Jaguar or JUROM IAR-93 Orao, although it is much larger than either, about the size of a F-4 Phantom. The high-wing configuration is ideal for its primary mission of low-level attack. The wing is swept and tapered with pronounced anhedral and features large trailing-edge flaps, but no leading edge devices. An aerodynamic fence is located at roughly 2/3 of span. The fuselage is relatively square-cornered, like a Tornado, and is waisted at the wing junction. The two crew sit in a tandem cockpit with individual canopies, ahead of simple fixed engine intakes. The rough-field undercarriage, with twin main wheels and trailing-link oleos, is clearly inspired by the units on the Jaguar. A swept vertical tail, and deep fixed ventral fin provide lateral stability, while the tailplane is all-moving.*
> 
> http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/tag/jh-7
> 
> Any thing else i can do for you ?




you said superior design.. to what it is superior design... first of all, I can wait 2 days get me the link when and where it stayed for 107min..


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## volatile

danger007 said:


> you said superior design.. to what it is superior design... first of all, I can wait 2 days get me the link when and where it stayed for 107min..








New Delhi: In yet another act of provocation, a Chinese fighter-bomber jet recently violated the Indian airspace in the Aksai Chin area near the Indo-China international border.

*Reports on Monday said that bomber aircraft belonging to China's People's Liberation Army kept hovering over the Indian airspace for close to 107 minutes after which it flew back and disappeared into the China's airspace.*

This is not the first time that the Chinese fighter planes had entered the Indian airspace. At several occasions in past, Chinese fighter jets had entered the Indian airspace and returned after dropping some food cans, cigarette packets and notes written in their local language near the Indo-China border.

On June 9, a fresh incursion by the Chinese troops into Indian territory in Arunachal Pradesh led to a minor scuffle and triggered tension between the two sides.

However, the issue was resolved soon and the Chinese offered chocolates as a gesture of peace and returned back. According to reports, around 250 Chinese troops transgressed to the Indian side in the Yangtse sector, approximately 650 metres east of Shankar Tiki, an area where Indian soldiers are stationed in a sizeable number.

The showdown continued for a couple of hours, and heated exchanges took place between the two side. However, later, four officers of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) met commanding officers of the Indian personnel at the Line of Actual Control to resolve the matter.




They also gifted packets of chocolates to their Indian counterparts. According to Army sources, this was the first incident of transgression in the Yangtse sector this year.

India has maintained that the transgressions along the India-China border are due to different perceptions of boundaries.
http://zeenews.india.com/news/india...es-indias-airspace-in-aksai-chin_1897992.html

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/another-...-airspace-in-aksai-chin.435702/#ixzz4CIoDzsCr

Stop Trolling i dont make news or links ,Also all information about design is in link ,Do some work and read it first ,no aerospace company shares blue prints on internet . The incursion for so much long time indicates the superior design and EW by Chinese JH7 .


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## Manticore

Stick to topic


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## barbarosa

I would like to suggest according to my low knowledge JH7B is suitable for PAF, F16 has no future in PAF because India is try to build F16 in India and create issues for PAF.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

aliyusuf said:


> In my humble opinion ... some people are underestimating the J-10C. The AL-31FN Series 3 engine that powers the J-10B and J-10C is a marked improvement in performance (137kN / 30,800lbs w/AB) and stability than the previous models of the AL-31F. Plus its AESA radar (new), Avionics, Integrated Electro-Optical System, IRST etc. are all pretty impressive and available right now ... unlike the JF-17 block-III or even later blocks (if and when they are realized) ... which are still several years to reality. Even when we get these newer Thunders ... I doubt they will equal the J-10C let alone surpass.


Sir,
J-10 a,b,c have been discussed over and over again on PDF. The final conclusion that they all came to was this aircraft is history.

Few very important reasons that make perfect sence to make this aircraft history are:
1) This aircraft is designed on the same principle of JF-17. So it indicates the philosophy either / or between JF-17 and J-10.

2) PAF from day one had invested heavily in JF-17 so going after J-10 would have split the orders making it more difficult for PAF to manage operational costs. Hence development of JF-17 was preferred as it gave PAF a product that it could say is totally their own however Chinese efforts and expertise can not be disregarded. 

3) The Engine that powers the J-10's is Russian which is being used on Indian Su- 30MKI and is prohibited for export to Pakistan. Cost of developing an other engine like the Russian did with JF-17 was too expensive.

4) PAF can upgrade the JF-17 to capabilities to J-10's with the only limitation of more Fuel. Hence there is no advantage over on e and other/



aliyusuf said:


> Considering the growing Indian influence in US Congress in particular and the West in general and what has subsequently transpired with the 8 new Block-52 deal ... it is now imperative that a contingency (Plan-B) should be in place. The J-10C is a good plan-b. The issue with the flanker-derivatives have never been the cost of acquisition but the cost of operation and maintenance (quite expensive) and also being subject to the approval of the Russians.


Sir,
As far as all the members on PDF concerned that trying to find what went into the construction of J-10 B are already using in the JF-17 hence this (J-10) platform does not fulfil the requirement of PAF.

Pakistan can not buy Flankers because Pakistan did not considered Afghanistan and Iraq as potential enemies



aliyusuf said:


> The SU-35 if it ever is in the PAF crosshairs for their next fighter, then they would only pursue it in a China-Russia-Pakistan combo agreement. In that context the Indian influence is not that daunting as China has way more sway over Russia than India ... as it already has a trillion+ USD in energy purchases in deals ranging over a period of 30 years. That is an approximate influx of 40 billion USD in average into Russian economy per annum.


Y
Your assessment is very wrong. PAF would purchase aircraft that suits its doctrine. USA would provide the latest technology when it thinks Pakistan is the only option.



aliyusuf said:


> This is not even counting the military deals have been made between the two.


If we are have a military relation with Russia then it should be stenghtened.



aliyusuf said:


> *Everything is speculation at the moment* and it all depends on the possible permutation and combinations of the variables that are involved in such deals.


If you think so...



Oscar said:


> Unless Asif Ali Zardari decides to donate to the Pakistani military and buy 65 Rafales (_which he probably can afford on his own .. or with a little help from his buddy Malik Riaz, or some generous Urbi donation_); the PAF is sticking to 150 JF-17's, 80 F-16s and 45-50 F-7PGs until it gets a 5th Gen jet. I told you folks this on a VERY solid authority back in 2011, and it is still true today.


This can be possible if accountability can be imparted along with rule of law. 



Oscar said:


> The rest is all smoke and mirrors to divert from the development in force multipliers and EW sophistication. The only thing that could change this scenario is India gaining information on all our programs and systems which drives them nuts into getting even more Jets in numbers; that would force us to try and spend billions in offsetting that changed equation.


For EW PAF would have to purchase larger platforms with low RCS. 



GURU DUTT said:


> well dear thing is you know it and i know it and as for that matter all members on PDF know it that pakistan cant buy any fighter outright with hard cash and needs support, subsidies and soft loans to buy these weapons and niether makers of Su35, or typhoon or grippen or rafale give such finance shemes so tell me what option your left with


Do you? I doubt it. You are trying to say that India is going to pay 100% cash on signing of contract. This only shows how much you understand how contracts are signed and executed.. 



Arsalan said:


> Plus there is a difference between CAN and WILL.


If there is Will then can automatically follows



Arsalan said:


> I am not sure EF is something we would want to go for right now or should go for right now.


The only reason could be possibility of European Engine Procurement that is required for export orders of JF-17.


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## My-Analogous

Please awake me when deal finalize

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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> J-10 a,b,c have been discussed over and over again on PDF. The final conclusion that they all came to was this aircraft is history.
> 
> Few very important reasons that make perfect sence to make this aircraft history are:
> 1) This aircraft is designed on the same principle of JF-17. So it indicates the philosophy either / or between JF-17 and J-10.
> 
> 2) PAF from day one had invested heavily in JF-17 so going after J-10 would have split the orders making it more difficult for PAF to manage operational costs. Hence development of JF-17 was preferred as it gave PAF a product that it could say is totally their own however Chinese efforts and expertise can not be disregarded.
> 
> 3) The Engine that powers the J-10's is Russian which is being used on Indian Su- 30MKI and is prohibited for export to Pakistan. Cost of developing an other engine like the Russian did with JF-17 was too expensive.
> 
> 4) PAF can upgrade the JF-17 to capabilities to J-10's with the only limitation of more Fuel. Hence there is no advantage over on e and other/
> 
> 
> Sir,
> As far as all the members on PDF concerned that trying to find what went into the construction of J-10 B are already using in the JF-17 hence this (J-10) platform does not fulfil the requirement of PAF.
> 
> Pakistan can not buy Flankers because Pakistan did not considered Afghanistan and Iraq as potential enemies
> 
> Y
> Your assessment is very wrong. PAF would purcades


Not sure why you quoted me? 
You want me to share my views on this post or to confirm what you said? 


I am surprised as i think you know i will disagree with some points here.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> Not sure why you quoted me?
> You want me to share my views on this post or to confirm what you said?
> 
> 
> I am surprised as i think you know i will disagree with some points here.


By mistake pressed the post reply too early before all the the quotes were replied. Please see the complete edited post above.

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## Ultima Thule

Tipu7 said:


> I will appreciate if you don't enlighten this thread readers with your wisdom from further on .........


and you have all wisdom for that forumit is a news can be partially wrong or full and BTW it is a open forum i have full right share my thought with other you can't stop me


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## aliyusuf

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> J-10 a,b,c have been discussed over and over again on PDF. The final conclusion that they all came to was this aircraft is history.


If you feel you need to toe that line of thought rigidly and dogmatically then be my guest. Situation and circumstances change and with it so do long standing theories and perceived options. Recent events show that it will be becoming increasingly difficult for the PAF to get western weapons on favorable terms from the west with the increasing influence of Indian lobbies. In that context considering the latest variant of the J-10 series as an alternative is logical.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Few very important reasons that make perfect sence to make this aircraft history are:
> 1) This aircraft is designed on the same principle of JF-17. So it indicates the philosophy either / or between JF-17 and J-10.


Really? J-10 from the outset was designed to be the best China can do to get a formidable single engine air superiority fighter ... which later with passage of time took on the mantle of a multirole fighter with changing requirements over passage of time. JF-17 from the outset was to be the best multirole fighter that the PAF could get *within a budget*. So there were compromises made to keep the costs down. The only reason the PAF cancelled the FC-20 program was that by the time the J-10's variant that was good enough to be FC-20 PAF was short on funds and the evolution of the JF-17 was proving trickier than they had initially anticipated. The country was facing challenges from bad governance and runaway corruption.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 2) PAF from day one had invested heavily in JF-17 so going after J-10 would have split the orders making it more difficult for PAF to manage operational costs. Hence development of JF-17 was preferred as it gave PAF a product that it could say is totally their own however Chinese efforts and expertise can not be disregarded.


Partially alluded to in my response above ... yes agreed. *But that doesn't stop from considering the J-10C as an F-16 contingency now.*



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 3) The Engine that powers the J-10's is Russian which is being used on Indian Su- 30MKI and is prohibited for export to Pakistan. Cost of developing an other engine like the Russian did with JF-17 was too expensive


I would appreciate it if you could provide some link that supports the above statement. By that logic, RD-93 is also a modified (gear box re-arranged, max-output tweaked) version of RD-33 that powered the IAF MiG-29s and should be prohibited for export. India does not have the AL-31FN Series 3 on its Su-30MKI but an older version of the engine with almost 10kN less power.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 4) PAF can upgrade the JF-17 to capabilities to J-10's with the only limitation of more Fuel. Hence there is no advantage over on e and other/


Lets agree to disagree on this. I know many people think of it this way. I am somewhat of a different opinion. If the coming blocks of the JF-17 even had the potential to equal the J-10C in the coming years ... we would have witnessed more interest from the PLAAF in inducting it.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> As far as all the members on PDF concerned that trying to find what went into the construction of J-10 B are already using in the JF-17 hence this (J-10) platform does not fulfil the requirement of PAF.


You are welcome to your opinion. Yet to hear of the level of RAM coating that has been used on J-10C for any of the future blocks of the Thunder. Plus being bigger gives it more room for future upgrades and more powerful components.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> USA would provide the latest technology when it thinks Pakistan is the only option.


And we are to wait till that happens?
Again ... lets agree to disagree.

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## abdulbarijan

We have to take this info with a pinch of salt, and I'm sure all the members that have been on this forum or following it from the time frame of 07/08 know first hand, that while some insider information may very well be accurate, however with the continuous change in internal and external environment, plans can and do change.
The biggest example being the FC-20 saga, where there were very strong indications to the point where our defence minister was discussing the acquisition. It all started with some insider info and blew up over the years and today here we stand with no FC-20 in the PAF. I remember back in 2010 I made a trip to KSA and due to some coincidence ended up meeting with a PAF aeronautical engineer. At this point the news of FC-20 was big and the FC-20 thread was probably the second most active thread in the PAF section. I asked him about the FC-20, and he gave what seemed to be " we're not really that interested" kind of vibe regarding the topic.

_The point being, the insider information that we end up hearing about from well placed sources is just a snippet of what the PAF is thinking at a specific period of time under specific conditions and with such a dynamic environment, plans CAN change. _

To get the big picture we would need to analyze the environment, what changes are expected in said environment, and what steps we can take to manage the effects of the change that is brought in to the said environment. The most imminent change is the arrival of Rafale. With the new F-16 blk 52's becoming a more distant option, the plans are now to go for Ex-RJAF falcons and probably upgrading them with Turkey. Meanwhile we continue to slowly and steadily work on the JFT and making it more potent. While our newer members are much more hyped about the upgrades in blk-III, and bummed that block II doesn't have what was reported by some sources -- the real "difference maker" in my opinion would be the integration of the more potent weapons coming out of China and South Africa (Denel) -- Suddenly you would have an airforce with around a 100-120 mainstay platforms that can use 5th gen WVRAAM's and and highly advanced BVRAAM's in an environment where the enemy is at close proximity and the normal advantages that heavies have against light weights are negotiated to a degree ... not to mention the falcon in numbers that we are looking for would be a factor as well ... By 2020 we are looking at a decent modernized & potent PAF, even if a new platform is not inducted.

The factors that will sway us to have a new platform is the threat perception of the IAF with the addition of rafale, and the time frame when J-31 will become available. If the J-31 is perceived to become available for export somewhere like post 2025, then there would be a very strong case to go for a high end aircraft. If it becomes available around 2020-2024, then there is the case for going directly towards a 5th gen. The info given by the Haris Khan seems to suggest that J-31 is a bit more distant then what we thought to be, therefore the effort is to go towards a 4.5 gen aircraft that can negotiate what the environment will be in the next half a decade. Or there may also be a possibility of putting pressure on the U.S to give us the original deal along with more block-52's by demonstrating that " we have other options as well" -- Now if we take this information on face value ... the question becomes of which platform is under consideration ... The Euoropean options will be quite expensive, hence the probability of getting a EF-2000 or Rafale is not that high. Gripen isn't needed at all since JFT is in service. Any jet from the U.S except second hand F-16's from other operators seems like a dream at this point. The only suppliers left are either China or Russia. _Hence most likely it will be a flanker from either Russia or China that might join PAF ranks if the information revealed is accurate..._

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## ACE OF THE AIR

aliyusuf said:


> If you feel you need to toe that line of thought rigidly and dogmatically then be my guest. Situation and circumstances change and with it so do long standing theories and perceived options. Recent events show that it will be becoming increasingly difficult for the PAF to get western weapons on favorable terms from the west with the increasing influence of Indian lobbies. In that context considering the latest variant of the J-10 series as an alternative is logical.
> 
> 
> Really? J-10 from the outset was designed to be the best China can do to get a formidable single engine air superiority fighter ... which later with passage of time took on the mantle of a multirole fighter with changing requirements over passage of time. JF-17 from the outset was to be the best multirole fighter that the PAF could get *within a budget*. So there were compromises made to keep the costs down. The only reason the PAF cancelled the FC-20 program was that by the time the J-10's variant that was good enough to be FC-20 PAF was short on funds and the evolution of the JF-17 was proving trickier than they had initially anticipated. The country was facing challenges from bad governance and runaway corruption.
> 
> 
> Partially alluded to in my response above ... yes agreed. *But that doesn't stop from considering the J-10C as an F-16 contingency now.*
> 
> 
> I would appreciate it if you could provide some link that supports the above statement. By that logic, RD-93 is also a modified (gear box re-arranged, max-output tweaked) version of RD-33 that powered the IAF MiG-29s and should be prohibited for export. India does not have the AL-31FN Series 3 on its Su-30MKI but an older version of the engine with almost 10kN less power.
> 
> 
> Lets agree to disagree on this. I know many people think of it this way. I am somewhat of a different opinion. If the coming blocks of the JF-17 even had the potential to equal the J-10C in the coming years ... we would have witnessed more interest from the PLAAF in inducting it.
> 
> 
> You are welcome to your opinion. Yet to hear of the level of RAM coating that has been used on J-10C for any of the future blocks of the Thunder. Plus being bigger gives it more room for future upgrades and more powerful components.
> 
> 
> And we are to wait till that happens?
> Again ... lets agree to disagree.


Here are a few interesting links that can answer most of you doubts.

https://defence.pk/threads/analysis-pafs-fighter-modernization-roadmap-part-1.423139/

https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunders-armament.297771/

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-might-consider-the-klimov-rd-33mk-for-jf-17.427787/

https://defence.pk/threads/jf17-blk4-major-upgrade-replacement-for-f16s.425822/

https://defence.pk/threads/major-changes-ahead-on-jf-17-block-3.394767/

https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-7.427560/

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## aliyusuf

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Here are a few interesting links that can answer most of you doubts.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/analysis-pafs-fighter-modernization-roadmap-part-1.423139/
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunders-armament.297771/
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-might-consider-the-klimov-rd-33mk-for-jf-17.427787/
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/jf17-blk4-major-upgrade-replacement-for-f16s.425822/
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/major-changes-ahead-on-jf-17-block-3.394767/
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-7.427560/



I have read all of them before, my friend. I have been around forums a very long time. I can sift information. I also can analyze and draw conclusions on my own.

Been to AERO Kamra and AWC as a vendor back in the mid 90s. I was working as a junior member of a software team which designed and developed the ACMI POC Simulator for the PAF. I am however not an insider. That was my only contact with the air force.

But I do get what you are saying. However, I still think JF-17, although can definitely play the main stay's role in the fleet, but it is not going to be an answer for many future potential high end threats. In fact neither is going to be our F-16 fleet (especially w/o AESA) in a possible threat theatre some 8 to 10 years from now.

The 5th gen platform is not coming before 2025. More likely it might be later than that. The capability gap that might arise till then can only be matched by the induction of intermediate 4.5 gen fighters in the next few years so that time required to absorb the new platform and master it to attain requisite proficiency is available and the potential gap breached before it widens.

Hope I was able to convey my opinion clearly.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

aliyusuf said:


> I have read all of them before, my friend. I have been around forums a very long time. I can sift information. I also can analyze and draw conclusions on my own.
> 
> Been to AERO Kamra and AWC as a vendor back in the mid 90s. I was working as a junior member of a software team which designed and developed the ACMI POC Simulator for the PAF. I am however not an insider. That was my only contact with the air force.
> 
> But I do get what you are saying. However, I still think JF-17, although can definitely play the main stay's role in the fleet, but it is not going to be an answer for many future potential high end threats. In fact neither is going to be our F-16 fleet (especially w/o AESA) in a possible threat theatre some 8 to 10 years from now.
> 
> The 5th gen platform is not coming before 2025. More likely it might be later than that. The capability gap that might arise till then can only be matched by the induction of intermediate 4.5 gen fighters in the next few years so that time required to absorb the new platform and master it to attain requisite proficiency is available and the potential gap breached before it widens.
> 
> Hope I was able to convey my opinion clearly.


JF-17 is a good Point defence fighter, that can deny air supremacy however till some modifications in regard to fuel capacity are made it can not be used as deep penetration aircraft. 

India and the West would like that Pakistan only gets Russian or Chinese aircraft because then it is easier for them to device a strategy to counter what they have. Pakistan needs to have a mixed fleet so that they are not compromised. 

Pakistan has a few options in this regards but the limiting factor is economy hence Pakistan has to find alternate solution. USA is under obligation till they end War on Terror to remit Pakistan through coalition support fund and all the services rendered trough Pakistan.

Supplying directly could be blocked but through strategic partner programs they can still support. USA can not stop the monitory support but restrict US contents similar to the Air Iran Sanctions. This is where Pakistan has leverage to chary pick what they want and end up with some thing that is very potent.

Fifth Generation Aircraft are limited hence it would take time unless the Chinese and Russians are convinced that NATO is going to attack them very shortly where they would have to increase production and diversify by offering their latest and restricted options. A few days back read news regarding US planning to offer the F-22 to countries that are directly in contact with US interest. However these would not be identical to the US versions but some what scaled down production models. 

The countries that are main contenders to these are South Korea, India and NATO member states. The down side of this is Japan, South Korea and Turkey who have invested on a Fifth Generation Fighter program. They would not like to invest in this program but also try to offer other countries cheaper solutions.

An Ideal situation for Pakistan is to have two western and two eastern solutions. For this to materialise PAF has to procure a western engine that can only be possible trough Canada or UK. This opens up TFX and KFX in the future whereas Russian and Chinese engines give all the front line options of eastern Fifth Generation Programs.

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## SQ8

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> For EW PAF would have to purchase larger platforms with low RCS.


Why?

The current Israeli EW system is as capable as any and goes on a pod for their F-16.

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## Ground_Hawk

_It's either Rafale or used mirage 2000 9. I doubt it will be euro fighter most. However our boys have flown/alongside Chinese variants of the SU30s so just MAYBE we're looking into that. However do su35s support data link 16 !_


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Oscar said:


> Why?
> 
> The current Israeli EW system is as capable as any and goes on a pod for their F-16.


Can PAF acquire this? 

May be PAF uses the JF-17B as a dedicated EW platform which can stay well within Pakistan and effectively provide coverage deep inside enemy country.


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## Pakistanisfirst

High end aircraft will be only JF-17 block-3 or J-31, no other option for Pakistan at all and not in the budget as well. Pakistan never has the strategy to adopt twin engine heavy jets. 
So its is useless to talk about rafale or any su-35 etc Pak is on the right track and will acquire jets as its demand and requirements.


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## CHI RULES

Arsalan said:


> Ooh bahi!!
> NOT ME!!
> Plus there is a difference between CAN and WILL.
> I am not sure EF is something we would want to go for right now or should go for right now.
> 
> 
> Electronic Warfare!!
> One thing that interests me in JH7. It is more or less the growler of PLAAF and would be an interesting prospect. Even if we do not got for this, getting some goodies incorporated in our future JF17s would work well for us.



Dear Sir do JH 7 has growler like EW suite.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Can PAF acquire this?
> 
> May be PAF uses the JF-17B as a dedicated EW platform which can stay well within Pakistan and effectively provide coverage deep inside enemy country.


Though JH7b is improved version yet not stealthy and has lower service ceiling so have no survivability chance within enemy territory.


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## Arsalan

CHI RULES said:


> Dear Sir do JH 7 has growler like EW suite.
> 
> 
> Though JH7b is improved version yet not stealthy and has lower service ceiling so have no survivability chance within enemy territory.



It is reported to carry EW PODs and is the main EW fighter/bomber plane of PLAAF. It is reported that the role will be taken up by J16 is the future in shape of a combination of integrated EW suite and external POD. For now that role is performed by JH7A and JH7

http://www.thephdefense.com/2015/08...boost-for-plas-electronic-warfare-capability/



CHI RULES said:


> Though JH7b is improved version yet not stealthy and has lower service ceiling so have no survivability chance within enemy territory.


With its EW Pods it pitches a competition between stealth and jamming.

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## PaklovesTurkiye

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Enemy aircraft you can take out---but subs---you can't do much.



Really? Then what purpose Maritime patrol Aircraft serves? P8 poseidon? P3c orion? Aren't they used in tracking and hunting subs?


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## jermankill

HI
do we have decide which plane we going to induct any reliable source ??? or just guess


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## Ultima Thule

jermankill said:


> HI
> do we have decide which plane we going to induct any reliable source ??? or just guess


just a rumors


----------



## GURU DUTT

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Really? Then what purpose Maritime patrol Aircraft serves? P8 poseidon? P3c orion? Aren't they used in tracking and hunting subs?


you dont send those kind of planes in open sea without escort when your enemy has long range interceptors like MKI & Mig29K with long range beyond visual missiles to hunt down such planes and at the moment you have nothing like that ... unprotected sub hunting plane like what you have is as important and juicy target for enemy air force like AWACS ... Got It ?


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## PaklovesTurkiye

GURU DUTT said:


> you dont send those kind of planes in open sea without escort when your enemy has long range interceptors like MKI & Mig29K with long range beyond visual missiles to hunt down such planes and at the moment you have nothing like that ... unprotected sub hunting plane like what you have is as important and juicy target for enemy air force like AWACS ... Got It ?



Hmm....


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## GURU DUTT

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Hmm....


one more thing if india goes for F16V or F/A-18E-F then make sure PAF gonna go for Mig29


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## PaklovesTurkiye

GURU DUTT said:


> one more thing if india goes for F16V or F/A-18E-F then make sure PAF gonna go for Mig29



PAF won't go for Mig29......I don't know much about what is going on in PAF but what i have read from this forum.....Mig29 was never on the list..........

Just su35 or typhoon or may be chinese...


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## GURU DUTT

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> PAF won't go for Mig29......I don't know much about what is going on in PAF but what i have read from this forum.....Mig29 was never on the list..........
> 
> Just su35 or typhoon or may be chinese...


no just forget su35 for two main reasons 

1. Indian lobby will never let that happen plus its a nightmare to mantain them even with new engines 

2. JF17 already uses the same engine as Mig29 which also are almost half the price as Su35

last but not the least Mig29 has the same load carrying capacity as F16s plus it has every thing from long range radars , HMDS , HOBS ,IRST'and a very good combat range so to fullfill all the requirements of PAF

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## Wolf

Arsalan said:


> It is reported to carry EW PODs and is the main EW fighter/bomber plane of PLAAF. It is reported that the role will be taken up by J16 is the future in shape of a combination of integrated EW suite and external POD. For now that role is performed by JH7A and JH7
> 
> http://www.thephdefense.com/2015/08...boost-for-plas-electronic-warfare-capability/
> 
> 
> With its EW Pods it pitches a competition between stealth and jamming.


J16 can be a very good bomber and EW capable fighter no doubt. Pakistan lacks a dedicated bomber. J16 or JH 7 can fit into this role effectively


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## PaklovesTurkiye

GURU DUTT said:


> no just forget su35 for two main reasons
> 
> 1. Indian lobby will never let that happen plus its a nightmare to mantain them even with new engines
> 
> 2. JF17 already uses the same engine as Mig29 which also are almost half the price as Su35
> 
> last but not the least Mig29 has the same load carrying capacity as F16s plus it has every thing from long range radars , HMDS , HOBS ,IRST'and a very good combat range so to fullfill all the requirements of PAF



PAF knows what to do and how to do next....

PAF will handle Indian lobby. Chinese help/influence should be considered here. I think PAF has already bought/ordered SU35.......I m unable to find thread regarding it.....That thread mentioned PAF has ordered 5 or 6 SU35


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## GURU DUTT

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> PAF knows what to do and how to do next....
> 
> PAF will handle Indian lobby. Chinese help/influence should be considered here. I think PAF has already bought/ordered SU35.......I m unable to find thread regarding it.....That thread mentioned PAF has ordered 5 or 6 SU35


two things 

1.PAF has not orderred and never will but even if they want niether they can afford it nor russia will give 

2. as for chinese flankers well they cant sell it to anyone no matter how close they are 

but you can agree or reject it but dont forget to thank me when it happens what i has said

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## PaklovesTurkiye

GURU DUTT said:


> two things
> 
> 1.PAF has not orderred and never will but even if they want niether they can afford it nor russia will give
> 
> 2. as for chinese flankers well they cant sell it to anyone no matter how close they are
> 
> but you can agree or reject it but dont forget to thank me when it happens what i has said



Arey sir ji....."thank u" ap se barh k hai kiya......abhi hi thank u kardeta hun apko......

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## GURU DUTT

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Arey sir ji....."thank u" ap se barh k hai kiya......abhi hi thank u kardeta hun apko......


shukriya , karam , meherbaani , nawaazish

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## ACE OF THE AIR

CHI RULES said:


> Though JH7b is improved version yet not stealthy and has lower service ceiling so have no survivability chance within enemy territory.


In my post it was JF-17 B not JH-7B.

JF-17B could provide EW and top cover where as JF-17A can handle ground attack...



Arsalan said:


> With its EW Pods it pitches a competition between stealth and jamming.


Stealth how?



GURU DUTT said:


> no just forget su35 for two main reasons
> 
> 1. Indian lobby will never let that happen plus its a nightmare to mantain them even with new engines
> 
> 2. JF17 already uses the same engine as Mig29 which also are almost half the price as Su35
> 
> last but not the least Mig29 has the same load carrying capacity as F16s plus it has every thing from long range radars , HMDS , HOBS ,IRST'and a very good combat range so to fullfill all the requirements of PAF



1) You do what ever you like...Russia only wants Money for that they are going to give what ever Pakistan wants.

2) Russia is pissed at USA because they have taken the Arab market. IRAQ getting F-16's. Libya would get Rafales. Syria is a nightmare.

3) India in the lap of USA is not helping the Russians and they are vary that PAK-FA technology would be handed to USA making it redundant for Russia.

4) Russia did not like India going to Red Flag and showing all the features that SU-30 MKI has because it gave the US enough knowledge on how to improve their aircraft. 

5) NATO expansion has put them in dire need of money and for this they would even give their technology free because it would still give the Russians work experience and revive their economy.

Now take the Indian lobby and dance on your Bollywood tunes.

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## Basel

GURU DUTT said:


> no just forget su35 for two main reasons
> 
> 1. Indian lobby will never let that happen plus its a nightmare to mantain them even with new engines
> 
> 2. JF17 already uses the same engine as Mig29 which also are almost half the price as Su35
> 
> last but not the least Mig29 has the same load carrying capacity as F16s plus it has every thing from long range radars , HMDS , HOBS ,IRST'and a very good combat range so to fullfill all the requirements of PAF



PAF will only go For Mig-29/35 if it offer significant boost over F-16 block-52+ and J-10C, although negotiations are for Su-35 since sometimes which Pakistani defence minister and Russian official leaks to media, even Shahid Masood said when F-16 talks collapsed that government people are working to get kickbacks in fighter jet deal with Russia if deal goes through. PAF might be negotiating with multiple vendors to get best deal but hope it didn't went like M2K deal in Zardar era of 90s.


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## SQ8

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Can PAF acquire this?
> 
> May be PAF uses the JF-17B as a dedicated EW platform which can stay well within Pakistan and effectively provide coverage deep inside enemy country.



The PAF is making attempts with multiple vendors to acquire the system. Some of these attempts were blocked; others are still under evaluation.

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## Wolf

GURU DUTT said:


> two things
> 
> 1.PAF has not orderred and never will but even if they want niether they can afford it nor russia will give
> 
> 2. as for chinese flankers well they cant sell it to anyone no matter how close they are
> 
> but you can agree or reject it but dont forget to thank me when it happens what i has said


What makes you think we can't afford. We didn't go for F 16s because there was strong possibility of Americans repeating pressler amendment saga even after paying entire money. Any procurement will involve 4-5 billion dollars and spreading Payment period over 5 years means 1 billion $ per year and arranging this much money is absolutely no issue. 
I will repeat your own words from earlier post that its better your enemy underestimates you. However, we don't need to convince Indians about our capabilities.


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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Dear Sir do JH 7 has growler like EW suite.
> 
> 
> Though JH7b is improved version yet not stealthy and has lower service ceiling so have no survivability chance within enemy territory.



Hi,

At what service ceiling do you think the survivability rate is higher?

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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Stealth how?


I said competition! 
While some aircraft focus on reducing RCS to incorporate stealth, that is making detection difficult other may use EW suites to confuse enemy radars and achieve the same goal of not being detected or targeted. Stealth VS Jamming



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> At what service ceiling do you think the survivability rate is higher?


frankly,, NONE! 
Todays SAM systems have made using altitude as means of escape difficult if not impossible, but you knew that.  



Wolf said:


> J16 can be a very good bomber and EW capable fighter no doubt. Pakistan lacks a dedicated bomber. J16 or JH 7 can fit into this role effectively


IT can be and is a very capable "strike fighter". With reported AESA, IRST, RAM coating, ECM and EW suite it is equally capable in air to air fight, this the term "strike fighter". Yes it have an impressive payload and can wreck havoc on enemy installation doing all this while being equally capable of defending itself against any airborne threats. A might impressive machine if you ask me.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> I said competition!
> While some aircraft focus on reducing RCS to incorporate stealth, that is making detection difficult other may use EW suites to confuse enemy radars and achieve the same goal of not being detected or targeted. Stealth VS Jamming


In the way of distraction and confusion it could work however not to the full extent.

PAF could argue that it would be waste of capital because a true Stealth is just round the corner. 



Arsalan said:


> IT can be and is a very capable "strike fighter". With reported AESA, IRST, RAM coating, ECM and EW suite it is equally capable in air to air fight, this the term "strike fighter". Yes it have an impressive payload and can wreck havoc on enemy installation doing all this while being equally capable of defending itself against any airborne threats. A might impressive machine if you ask me.


This seems to be a more appropriate option. However for this to materialise Russia would have to consider if they are unable to sell SU-35's to Pakistan because of local demands. That would pave way for the engine to be exported through China and also keep a blind eye on J-16 (Flanker Restriction Deal).

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## jermankill

GURU DUTT said:


> one more thing if india goes for F16V or F/A-18E-F then make sure PAF gonna go for Mig29


lol oh com on man come with something better........ same thinking its 2106 ...wake up

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> frankly,, NONE!
> Todays SAM systems have made using altitude as means of escape difficult if not impossible, but you knew that.


Technically the SAM systems like STAR WARS project can potentially take out satellite systems of enemy countries provided they can be tracked effectively.

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## Ground_Hawk

jetstar said:


> Yes the avionics, in contrast to the first version of the Su-35, are supplied by the Russian company MRPC AVIONICA, specializing in the development of aircraft avionics. The Su-35BM will count on a system of four fly-by-wire digital chanals of control called SDU-427. The configuration of cockpit of the Su-35BM has two large 23X30cm LCD viewfinder. One monitor displayes tatical combat information and navigation, with the secondary monitor provides other information about the aircraft for the pilot. In the field of Electronic Warfare, an un-specified set of equipment operates in several ways: "Self-defense", "Mutual Protection" or "Protection of Group". It will count on the system of protection for eletronic war L175M Khibiny-M. It is integrated with the Russian GLONASS system of global positioning. *It also uses LINK 16, adata-communication system datalink standard of NATO, an unimaginable situation until recent years.*


But still will it make sense to buy something like SU35BM still based on a 25 year old airframe design ! And I'm purely asking on the hypothesis of the situation. Plus the fact you're fact finding was pretty spot on. In a very detailed article by some french dude he factually with visual evidence explained the advantages RAFALE enjoys over a number of adversaries INCLUDING the F22. 

We don't have the power kettle for many aircrafts yes. But 2 squadrons, multi function workhorse backed by f16s and jf17s. Don't it buy us time to come up with a whole new mindset towards modern warfare instead of tit for tat purchases. Thank you



GURU DUTT said:


> one more thing if india goes for F16V or F/A-18E-F then make sure PAF gonna go for Mig29


20,000 years back there was a rumour of 128 rafales being bought. It's 2016 June and still waiting. If it ends up giving up for even the V kit powered f16s or any of the f18 !!!! Good on you. Best of luck. You deserve it



Mav3rick said:


> Highly unlikely. Why would PAF go for any new platform until India actually procures Rafael.


Because India probably isn't and the French can't wait forever. A good bluff played well but running old now.

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## PDF

Wishing for Typhoon,






expecting this aircraft,





Hoping for the best choice.


The first two have 45-45% chance while J-16 has the rest 10% chance.


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## bazil

since we only have the Chinese option for 5th Gen. wouldn't getting ourselves some western tech like the typhoon make sense over SU 35.i mean if there was a time to cough up the dough, this would be it. plus given that EF is a joint venture maybe PAF Kamra could be part of the effort and cheaply produce some parts in the EF's supplychain


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## ghazi768

GURU DUTT said:


> one more thing if india goes for F16V or F/A-18E-F then make sure PAF gonna go for Mig29



Why you Indian posters keep on giving such 'sincere' advice to us and keep pedalling Mig-29. It is a piece of Junk..

It has absolutely embarrassing range of a fighter, will find it very hard beyond 200 km combat radius with a centreline tank if it really wants to fight and survive a dog fight. It is lousy when it comes to speed and acceleration, too energy depleting, with couple of hard turns against an F-16 it will be so slow that the pilot will be forced to say whatever prayers and tanter manter he needs for a bit of luck in such shit. Its RCS is like a sore to eyes on radar screen and you will be amazed how far even radar operators on radar stations are able to see it. F-16 has a RCS much below 3ms, low enough that IAF's legs tremble when even they hear of an order of 8 jets.

Thanks a lot, keep this junk. We are not interested..



GURU DUTT said:


> you dont send those kind of planes in open sea without escort when your enemy has long range interceptors like MKI & Mig29K with long range beyond visual missiles to hunt down such planes and at the moment you have nothing like that ... unprotected sub hunting plane like what you have is as important and juicy target for enemy air force like AWACS ... Got It ?



Wow, you have lot of operational and tactical acumen, kudos...

By the way, it may be interesting to your that Swedish retired radar operators bragged about being able to detect Su-27s flying from their bases around St. petersburg which is about 700 km from their border and that radar they mentioned was also 1960s vintage. Su-30 MKI RCS unfortunately has not come down that much in RCS terms, I do not think that IAF will be stupid like you and will send its precious Su-30s MKIs to fly around in 500-600 km ranges opposite our coast. Surprise bounces is still a big reality in air..

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## danger007

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> PAF knows what to do and how to do next....
> 
> PAF will handle Indian lobby. Chinese help/influence should be considered here. I think PAF bought/ordered SU35.......I m unable to find thread regarding it.....That thread mentioned PAF has ordered 5 or 6 SU35




India lobbying is beyond pakistan reach at the given date ... china have opportunity to bargain when it comes to support systems but offensive platforms like Su 35???? just because you guys getting Mi-35 and jet engines doesn't mean you goy more influence than India in kremlin.. 



Hence the relations with Pakistan while being independent in nature will never have any designs against India. Islamabad is a very important player in joint efforts to maintain regional stability, especially in view of the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan and growing threats of international terrorism fuelled by ISIS and rampant drug production. These factors require collective counteraction and target-oriented capacity building. And these are exactly the reasons for our recent arrangements with Islamabad on the supply of four Mi-35 helicopters. I would also like to respond to the idle talk and pure invention of the media by reiterating that Russia has not discussed and does not have any plans to sell Su-35 aircraft to Pakistan.


http://in.rbth.com/economics/cooperation/2015/09/28/ties-with-pakistan-not-against-india_443441


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## Goan64 de Argentina

PARÍS. Argentina está negociando con Francia para la compra de 12 aviones Mirage F1, Mirage 2000 y algunos motores de usar el vigésimo Pucarás que están actualmente congelado, le dijo a La Nación en la capital francesa el ministro de Defensa Julio Martínez.


Al pasar por París, donde llegó para asistir a la Exposición Eurosatory Armamento, Martínez fue recibido ayer durante una hora por su homólogo francés, Jean-Yves Le Drian, que analizó en detalle la posibilidad de que la compra. "La transacción proporciona un valor excelente y unas condiciones muy favorables", dijo. El contexto de la adquisición evolucionó favorablemente debido al acuerdo entre los dos ministros de circunscribir la operación a un "estado dentro del estado" para evitar intermediarios y aprovechar el nuevo clima de confianza establecida entre los dos países. "La Fuerza Aérea Argentina no puede prescindir de los aviones supersónicos. Nuestros pilotos deben ser capaces de entrenar en los aparatos modernos", dijo el ministro.

Martínez se negó sin embargo para avanzar cantidades, modos de operación y los plazos de pago debido a que "las negociaciones no han terminado." También reconoció que aunque los Estados Unidos propuso el país vendiendo sus supersónico F-16, la "opción francesa" es más coherente con las necesidades del país: "El tiempo de vuelo de los aviones F-16 de ellos hace casi prohibitivo" él dijo. Chile, que tiene 24 de los aviones, no puede volar porque cada hora en el aire cuesta $ 17.000.


De concretarse, la compra de levantar el ánimo de los pilotos de la Fuerza Aérea, que desde hace años carecen de equipo adecuado y ver sus ingresos encogimiento, como informó ayer LA NACION.

alternativa francés

gottaau2
Según el ministro de Defensa, la adquisición de buques franceses es conveniente para el precio

alternativo estadounidense

Una propuesta de Estados Unidos para sus aviones F-16 fue gobernada por el alto costo de la hora de vuelo.


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## danger007

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> In the way of distraction and confusion it could work however not to the full extent.
> 
> PAF could argue that it would be waste of capital because a true Stealth is just round the corner.
> 
> 
> This seems to be a more appropriate option. However for this to materialise Russia would have to consider if they are unable to sell SU-35's to Pakistan because of local demands. That would pave way for the engine to be exported through China and also keep a blind eye on J-16 (Flanker Restriction Deal).




I don't think Russia inducting SU 35 in huge numbers... they got 48 in inventory another 50 in order.. may be you reluctant to accept what Russian Diplomat said.. few months ago Russian official govt website mentioned.. no chance to sale Su 35 to pak..



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> In my post it was JF-17 B not JH-7B.
> 
> JF-17B could provide EW and top cover where as JF-17A can handle ground attack...
> 
> 
> Stealth how?
> 
> 
> 
> 1) You do what ever you like...Russia only wants Money for that they are going to give what ever Pakistan wants.
> 
> 2) Russia is pissed at USA because they have taken the Arab market. IRAQ getting F-16's. Libya would get Rafales. Syria is a nightmare.
> 
> 3) India in the lap of USA is not helping the Russians and they are vary that PAK-FA technology would be handed to USA making it redundant for Russia.
> 
> 4) Russia did not like India going to Red Flag and showing all the features that SU-30 MKI has because it gave the US enough knowledge on how to improve their aircraft.
> 
> 5) NATO expansion has put them in dire need of money and for this they would even give their technology free because it would still give the Russians work experience and revive their economy.
> 
> Now take the Indian lobby and dance on your Bollywood tunes.






http://rusembindia.com/home/embassy...ission-of-the-russian-rmbassy-mr-denis-alipov


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## ConcealCarry

they also said similar things in the past regarding jet engines, offensive weapons, helicopters, etc...............time, my friend brings amazing surprises 



danger007 said:


> I don't think Russia inducting SU 35 in huge numbers... they got 48 in inventory another 50 in order.. may be you reluctant to accept what Russian Diplomat said.. few months ago *Russian official govt website mentioned.. no chance to sale Su 35 to pak..*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://rusembindia.com/home/embassy...ission-of-the-russian-rmbassy-mr-denis-alipov


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## danger007

ConcealCarry said:


> they also said similar things in the past regarding jet engines, offensive weapons, helicopters, etc...............time, my friend brings amazing surprises




Jet engines are not offensive platforms... Helis?? you mean Mi 35 ?? we donated few to Afghanistan...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

danger007 said:


> Jet engines are not offensive platforms... Helis?? you mean Mi 35 ?? we donated few to Afghanistan...



Nah .. Jet engine power offensive weapons though.

You donated vintage mi-24 variants from the early 70s to Afghanistan .. Pak is buying the latest Mi-35M (E) variant produced in 2005.


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## danger007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Nah .. Jet engine power offensive weapons though.
> 
> You donated vintage mi-25 variants from the 80s to Afghanistan .. Pak is buying the latest Mi-35M (E) variant produced in 2005.



Indian Mi 35 upgraded.. 
Since when engine become weapon???


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## DESERT FIGHTER

danger007 said:


> Indian Mi 35 upgraded..



Yeah and Pak upgraded the AHIs.. Don't mean they reach the same level as the Viper..



> Since when engine become weapon???



That's the core component of a Fukin fighter jet..

Fighter jets bombs stuff.. That makes then offensive weapons..

Apart from that Russia is offering MI-28s and SAMs which they also marketed at ideas 2015..

Apart from offering rifles for G-3 replacement among other stuff..


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## ConcealCarry

Yep, they are used in toys and probably that is why Indians were cribbing and crying with Russia to stop their sales to Paksitan



danger007 said:


> Jet engines are not offensive platforms... Helis?? you mean Mi 35 ?? we donated few to Afghanistan...


----------



## danger007

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Yeah and Pak upgraded the AHIs.. Don't mean they reach the same level as the Viper..
> 
> 
> 
> That's the core component of a Fukin fighter jet..
> 
> Fighter jets bombs stuff.. That makes then offensive weapons..
> 
> Apart from that Russia is offering MI-28s and SAMs which they also marketed at ideas 2015..
> 
> Apart from offering rifles for G-3 replacement among other stuff..




weird logic.. lol..


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## Mav3rick

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> And why would or should we wait untill India does something we have our own policy for Modernization, they can fly the elephant for all we care



Quite frankly because we are not stupid and would rather save money for mature 5th gen platform then to waste on 4th/4++ gen especially if India does not induct any new technology. You do realize that our Air Force is entirely India centric, right?

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## PaklovesTurkiye

danger007 said:


> India lobbying is beyond pakistan reach at the given date ... china have opportunity to bargain when it comes to support systems but offensive platforms like Su 35???? just because you guys getting Mi-35 and jet engines doesn't mean you goy more influence than India in kremlin..
> 
> 
> 
> Hence the relations with Pakistan while being independent in nature will never have any designs against India. Islamabad is a very important player in joint efforts to maintain regional stability, especially in view of the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan and growing threats of international terrorism fuelled by ISIS and rampant drug production. These factors require collective counteraction and target-oriented capacity building. And these are exactly the reasons for our recent arrangements with Islamabad on the supply of four Mi-35 helicopters. I would also like to respond to the idle talk and pure invention of the media by reiterating that Russia has not discussed and does not have any plans to sell Su-35 aircraft to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> http://in.rbth.com/economics/cooperation/2015/09/28/ties-with-pakistan-not-against-india_443441



Time is cruel, buddy. Relations evolve and nothing stalls....

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## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Technically the SAM systems like STAR WARS project can potentially take out satellite systems of enemy countries provided they can be tracked effectively.



STAR WARS project? 
It is 2016 now!
Anyway, you missed a critical part of the post dear, here i have highlighted that for you now:


Arsalan said:


> frankly,, NONE!
> Todays SAM systems have made using altitude as means of escape *difficult if not impossible*, but you knew that.


Surely there are even anti-Satellite missiles out there as well so they sure can reach high flying planes too. The point here is how practical that will be in a war scenario. Thus the statement "difficult if not impossible". Let us keep the discussion to things that will be practically feasible.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> In the way of distraction and confusion it could work however not to the full extent.


to full extent? What you mean by that? Nothing will be effective to full extent. There are anti-stealth technology, specially radars already on the table. Also EW jamming have some key advantages over stealth and that must not be ignored either.



> This seems to be a more appropriate option. However for this to materialise Russia would have to consider if they are unable to sell SU-35's to Pakistan because of local demands. That would pave way for the engine to be exported through China and also keep a blind eye on J-16 (Flanker Restriction Deal).


Long shot! 
Plus i didn't even mentioned JH7 for PAF  We were just discussion the aircraft capabilities. I am not the one who will want PAF to buy everything that fly! Will like to keep things realistic.

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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 1) You do what ever you like...Russia only wants Money for that they are going to give what ever Pakistan wants.
> 
> 2) Russia is pissed at USA because they have taken the Arab market. IRAQ getting F-16's. Libya would get Rafales. Syria is a nightmare.
> 
> 3) India in the lap of USA is not helping the Russians and they are vary that PAK-FA technology would be handed to USA making it redundant for Russia.
> 
> 4) Russia did not like India going to Red Flag and showing all the features that SU-30 MKI has because it gave the US enough knowledge on how to improve their aircraft.
> 
> 5) NATO expansion has put them in dire need of money and for this they would even give their technology free because it would still give the Russians work experience and revive their economy.
> 
> Now take the Indian lobby and dance on your Bollywood tunes.



1.russia sure wants but money but can you provide it like india or china does to russia its all about scale and who offers more and consistent buisness in the end hope you get it sir

2.russia may be pissed of but why will it let its golden egg laying goose like india go just to have a little ego boost against arch rival USA ?

3.no india is not in a lap of USA rather in long term buisness agreement and we are not egtting anything for free from USA so why will USA or for that matter russia go against india and do you think a nation making and operating 3types of stealth fighters for more than two decades which is at pinnacle of technology would engage india for same technical inputs ... this idea of yours can only be termed as stupid and idiotic but still congrats for it

4.Russia knows MKI is using israeli, french and even some US tech in MKI and USA can take more inputs from there manufacturers than we could ever provide think about it

5. no one gives there tech for free unless they get something out of it same goes for russia , USA or any of there allyies stop dreaming sir

as for indian lobby well what has happenned in short time is just tip of the ice berg lots more to come good luck



Basel said:


> PAF will only go For Mig-29/35 if it offer significant boost over F-16 block-52+ and J-10C, although negotiations are for Su-35 since sometimes which Pakistani defence minister and Russian official leaks to media, even Shahid Masood said when F-16 talks collapsed that government people are working to get kickbacks in fighter jet deal with Russia if deal goes through. PAF might be negotiating with multiple vendors to get best deal but hope it didn't went like M2K deal in Zardar era of 90s.


please sir dont take word of people like so called Dr shahid masood the TV host too serously as for Mig29/35 well its the best answer for all PAF needs just keep watching as things unfold as for M2K well if PAF can get them that should do its job for at least 15 more years till J31 comes



ghazi768 said:


> Why you Indian posters keep on giving such 'sincere' advice to us and keep pedalling Mig-29. It is a piece of Junk..
> 
> It has absolutely embarrassing range of a fighter, will find it very hard beyond 200 km combat radius with a centreline tank if it really wants to fight and survive a dog fight. It is lousy when it comes to speed and acceleration, too energy depleting, with couple of hard turns against an F-16 it will be so slow that the pilot will be forced to say whatever prayers and tanter manter he needs for a bit of luck in such shit. Its RCS is like a sore to eyes on radar screen and you will be amazed how far even radar operators on radar stations are able to see it. F-16 has a RCS much below 3ms, low enough that IAF's legs tremble when even they hear of an order of 8 jets.
> 
> Thanks a lot, keep this junk. We are not interested..
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you have lot of operational and tactical acumen, kudos...
> 
> By the way, it may be interesting to your that Swedish retired radar operators bragged about being able to detect Su-27s flying from their bases around St. petersburg which is about 700 km from their border and that radar they mentioned was also 1960s vintage. Su-30 MKI RCS unfortunately has not come down that much in RCS terms, I do not think that IAF will be stupid like you and will send its precious Su-30s MKIs to fly around in 500-600 km ranges opposite our coast. Surprise bounces is still a big reality in air..


who told you Mig29 has very short combat radius or is a slow and slouch kind of fighter and in its latest avatar has RCS value as that of a F16 Blk52 as for turn rate or dog fighting well it has one of the most matured HMDS & HOBS combo singe when even western nations were only devloping this tech now whats on it is at par with latest what any other advanced nation has to offer plus the fact its got not one but two Internal IRST one just ahaed of cockpit and one under belly which both are slaved to its radar and passive detection systems making it more deadly even when the radar is not switched on so in short its the best for you but as i said you have full right to disagree no need to call names or use abusive language

as for the later part sir i said yopu cant send your prime anty sub warfare planes like PR orions without any air escort cause they would be prime targets to IAFs & IN AFs MKIs and Mig29K as they are too big and slow and dont have any offensive or defensive missiles to counter air to air missiles to counter misslis of inidan fighters as for RCS well there are also passive and active jammers , EW -ECM systems on MI to blind or confuse your radars and missiles and carries almost twice the number of long range BVRs as any of your fighter even F-15s have huge RCS how many have been shot down in air to air combat ever wonderred why ?


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

danger007 said:


> Russian Diplomat said.. few months ago Russian official govt website mentioned.. no chance to sale Su 35 to pak..


That diplomat has to live in India.



danger007 said:


> Since when engine become weapon???


Since India mentioned Missile launched vehicles offensive.



Arsalan said:


> STAR WARS project?


Intercept missile in outer space..








Arsalan said:


> Surely there are even anti-Satellite missiles out there as well so they sure can reach high flying planes too. The point here is how practical that will be in a war scenario. Thus the statement "difficult if not impossible". Let us keep the discussion to things that will be practically feasible.


Sir, the point here was to address @MastanKhan question (below). Practicable or feasible in war time should be the last thing to discuss because in a war survival has to be safeguarded (Idealistically), however for a country like Pakistan expenses need to be minimum without compromising on use of element of surprise to shatter myth of invincibility. 



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> At what service ceiling do you think the survivability rate is higher?





Arsalan said:


> to full extent?


Sir, I knew you know the answer hence just gave you the hint to keep others guessing. 



Arsalan said:


> Long shot!


True.
Capability wise you know it would become an asset. Keeping things realistic PAF has to some how find more F-16's ASAP.


----------



## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> That diplomat has to live in India.
> 
> 
> Since India mentioned Missile launched vehicles offensive.
> 
> 
> Intercept missile in outer space..
> View attachment 313128
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, the point here was to address @MastanKhan question (below). Practicable or feasible in war time should be the last thing to discuss because in a war survival has to be safeguarded (Idealistically), however for a country like Pakistan expenses need to be minimum without compromising on use of element of surprise to shatter myth of invincibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, I knew you know the answer hence just gave you the hint to keep others guessing.
> 
> 
> True.
> Capability wise you know it would become an asset. Keeping things realistic PAF has to some how find more F-16's ASAP.


frankly, i am not able to make sense out of this post. Cannot understand what exactly you are trying to say and why are you missing the simple post that i made, not sure if you were actually not able to understand the simple enough point i made or you are doing so purposely.  Reasons unknown!

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## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> 1.russia sure wants but money but can you provide it like india or china does to russia its all about scale and who offers more and consistent buisness in the end hope you get it sir
> 
> 2.russia may be pissed of but why will it let its golden egg laying goose like india go just to have a little ego boost against arch rival USA ?
> 
> 3.no india is not in a lap of USA rather in long term buisness agreement and we are not egtting anything for free from USA so why will USA or for that matter russia go against india and do you think a nation making and operating 3types of stealth fighters for more than two decades which is at pinnacle of technology would engage india for same technical inputs ... this idea of yours can only be termed as stupid and idiotic but still congrats for it
> 
> 4.Russia knows MKI is using israeli, french and even some US tech in MKI and USA can take more inputs from there manufacturers than we could ever provide think about it
> 
> 5. no one gives there tech for free unless they get something out of it same goes for russia , USA or any of there allyies stop dreaming sir





Honestly nothing would happen to USA only her Proxy India would be a looser in all this. 
You know the proverb

Dhobhi ka kuta ghar ka na ghat ka...

By all this what has India achieved? Please for once think without being a patriot.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Arsalan said:


> frankly, i am not able to make sense out of this post. Cannot understand what exactly you are trying to say and why are you missing the simple post that i made, not sure if you were actually not able to understand the simple enough point i made or you are doing so purposely.  Reasons unknown!


Sir, 

A question raised by Mastan Khan was 
"At what service sealing the survivability rate is higher?"

SAM systems since the time STAR WARS was conceived in the 60's to intercept missiles and high level aircraft in outer space. At that time it was considered that Satellites should have some kind of missile or lazer that could be fire to intercept. 

This would indicate that the survivability of aircraft was getting limited. In present day war situation Outer Space has been deemed to be a non weapons domain.


"States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner;"
 http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html

For this very reason most of the super powers along with the developed countries who could afford to manufacture missile capable of reaching Outer Space started working on having some for their own safe guards. Two or three countries have openly tested this system. They targeted their own old satellites that were meant to be brought back to the Earth where they would disintegrate while re-entering the Earths atmosphere due to friction.

These satellites were how ever destroyed by a missile in outer space. The UN-COPUOS objected to this by condemning it and saying that this increased the chance of Space Debris which could cause ore damage then the complete satellite. 

Costs during War are based on many factors as you know, one can not say that it is wise not to do this and this technology should not be used. Hence in my post referred to the term "Idealistic".

Sir, where you quoted 'Full Extent?" I meant both EW and Stealth have certain advantages and disadvantages hence both systems can not be used to their potential due to technology of countering them has evolved at a faster rate than to the primary technology. 

This is where you yourself reached. For this very reason I did not explain as I knew you would reach to where I was pointing.

I hope this post is more understandable...


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## The SC

Costwise, 40 SU-35 would cost HALF the price or less of that of 40 EFT..
MIG-35 can also be an option , but availability is after 2020..even less expensive than the SU-35


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## Zain Malik

mingle said:


> Shah G Haris and Usman Shabir r two most inner guys .My guess is EF trench 3 as per Boota Shahib guess at PDF too .


 After COAS visit to Germany EF seems to enter PAF service...


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## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> he he he wow so above mentioned is all about what you think about india and its diplomacy then i guess... khair janne do


It is not my assumption but what you (India) is trying to perceive. Russia would not sell this to Pakistan because India spends billions and so on...

Fact is Russian economy is not doing well so it is going to find any one who is willing to provide some life line even if that lifeline is for a micro second. 
Here is an other proverb Doob te ko tin ke ka saha ra...

Who is stopping India from becoming the Blue Eyed boy or lets just say pappu bacha of USA. You know how pappu bacha are treated?  

I do not understand why you can not come out of the Mig-29 / 35 frame of mind. It does not offer any thing drastic over the F-16's. Moreover the Russians have ordered the Mig-35 in large numbers hence they are no way these aircraft would be available till 2020 hence these are out of the question... as you said Khair jaane do


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## Muhammad Omar

well after 39 pages of discussion can we know about the expected date or month of the deal??

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## Zain Malik

Muhammad Omar said:


> well after 39 pages of discussion can we know about the expected date or month of the deal??


 Coming Soon Eurofighter Typhoon


----------



## barbarosa

Muhammad Omar said:


> well after 39 pages of discussion can we know about the expected date or month of the deal??


No Sir we will try to trace the answer of the enigmas.


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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> It is not my assumption but what you (India) is trying to perceive. Russia would not sell this to Pakistan because India spends billions and so on...
> 
> Fact is Russian economy is not doing well so it is going to find any one who is willing to provide some life line even if that lifeline is for a micro second.
> Here is an other proverb Doob te ko tin ke ka saha ra...
> 
> Who is stopping India from becoming the Blue Eyed boy or lets just say pappu bacha of USA. You know how pappu bacha are treated?
> 
> I do not understand why you can not come out of the Mig-29 / 35 frame of mind. It does not offer any thing drastic over the F-16's. Moreover the Russians have ordered the Mig-35 in large numbers hence they are no way these aircraft would be available till 2020 hence these are out of the question... as you said Khair jaane do


sirji aap mujhko bann karva ker hi manoge 

point is we and not friends i mean india and pakistan and both of us keep trying to stop latest weapons sales to other by a third party and there is nothing wrong in it 

as for russia well they have many other nations as export coustmores asweel and most of them are US allies also so your argument fails why they will only listen to india or china for that matter

we can never become a blue eyed boy of any nation be it Russia , USA , UK or france or Japan or even Israel and we also dont beleve or practise or strive for that kind of diplomatic status we want to do buisness and trade with every one even china for that matter 

now what Mig29 give that F16 dosent well one word combat range and latest HMDS-HOBS-IRST-BVR combo which no US or its allies will ever give to you ... try it if im wrong 

plus the fact a fully loaded Mig29/35 gonna cost around 40million dollars per popand it has engine comminality with JF17 and is almost 40% cheaper to fly and mantain than a Su35 and has the same number of hardpoints and same weight carrying capacity as that of a fully loaded F16Blk52 rest you can speculate yourself


----------



## Arsalan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> 
> A question raised by Mastan Khan was
> 
> "At what service sealing the survivability rate is higher?"
> 
> SAM systems since the time STAR WARS was conceived in the 60's to intercept missiles and high level aircraft in outer space. At that time it was considered that Satellites should have some kind of missile or lazer that could be fire to intercept.
> 
> This would indicate that the survivability of aircraft was getting limited. In present day war situation Outer Space has been deemed to be a non weapons domain.
> 
> "States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner;"
> http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html
> 
> For this very reason most of the super powers along with the developed countries who could afford to manufacture missile capable of reaching Outer Space started working on having some for their own safe guards. Two or three countries have openly tested this system. They targeted their own old satellites that were meant to be brought back to the Earth where they would disintegrate while re-entering the Earths atmosphere due to friction.
> 
> These satellites were how ever destroyed by a missile in outer space. The UN-COPUOS objected to this by condemning it and saying that this increased the chance of Space Debris which could cause ore damage then the complete satellite.
> 
> Costs during War are based on many factors as you know, one can not say that it is wise not to do this and this technology should not be used. Hence in my post referred to the term "Idealistic".
> 
> Sir, where you quoted 'Full Extent?" I meant both EW and Stealth have certain advantages and disadvantages hence both systems can not be used to their potential due to technology of countering them has evolved at a faster rate than to the primary technology.
> 
> This is where you yourself reached. For this very reason I did not explain as I knew you would reach to where I was pointing.
> 
> I hope this post is more understandable...



Dear the point is that in all of this what you said here and your previous posts? Where was the reply to what Mastan khan asked?

The projects that you pointed to were all considered and even worked on but were not practical enough to engage aircraft. The costs involved was just one of the factors. Please read it again as this is important and I do not want you to miss this, the cost involved was just ONE of the factors. Those programs or there offshoots developed into anti-Satellite programs and that is a practical application. Reason being the number of Satellites one may need to take down. There is no way anyone can produce enough anti-satellite category missiles to handle hundreds of aircrafts attacking in packs! Again, attacking in packs! That is the reason why I said that none of this is practical. I hope you understand. Furthermore, as I requested you earlier, there is not much need to bring in work of fiction as even the more realistic options, the real day operation surface to air missiles that are more commonly known about and thus will be easier to understand, again, easier to understand compared to STARWAR projects, do have enough service altitude to take down any high flying aircraft. That is why I said that using altitude as a mean of escape have been made difficult if not impossible by the modern day SAM systems. 

As for stealth, yes, that is what i was saying that EW suites present a competition between stealth and jamming. Both will have its advantages and disadvantages and none will be 100% efficient. That is what i said when i replied to the below statement by yourself 


> In the way of distraction and confusion it could work *however not to the full extent.*
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/a-new-aircraft-for-paf.435458/page-39#ixzz4CUROdHt


THIS cannot be used as a point for stealth over jamming as both will have there limitations.

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## for truth

ghazi768 said:


> Why you Indian posters keep on giving such 'sincere' advice to us and keep pedalling Mig-29. It is a piece of Junk..
> 
> It has absolutely embarrassing range of a fighter, will find it very hard beyond 200 km combat radius with a centreline tank if it really wants to fight and survive a dog fight. It is lousy when it comes to speed and acceleration, too energy depleting, with couple of hard turns against an F-16 it will be so slow that the pilot will be forced to say whatever prayers and tanter manter he needs for a bit of luck in such shit. Its RCS is like a sore to eyes on radar screen and you will be amazed how far even radar operators on radar stations are able to see it. F-16 has a RCS much below 3ms, low enough that IAF's legs tremble when even they hear of an order of 8 jets.
> 
> Thanks a lot, keep this junk. We are not interested..
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you have lot of operational and tactical acumen, kudos...
> 
> By the way, it may be interesting to your that Swedish retired radar operators bragged about being able to detect Su-27s flying from their bases around St. petersburg which is about 700 km from their border and that radar they mentioned was also 1960s vintage. Su-30 MKI RCS unfortunately has not come down that much in RCS terms, I do not think that IAF will be stupid like you and will send its precious Su-30s MKIs to fly around in 500-600 km ranges opposite our coast. Surprise bounces is still a big reality in air..



In your opinion, is this news reliable?

What sort of plane Pakistan may eventually buy?


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> sirji aap mujhko bann karva ker hi manoge






GURU DUTT said:


> now what Mig29 give that F16 dosent well one word combat range and latest HMDS-HOBS-IRST-BVR combo which no US or its allies will ever give to you ... try it if im wrong
> 
> plus the fact a fully loaded Mig29/35 gonna cost around 40million dollars per popand it has engine comminality with JF17 and is almost 40% cheaper to fly and mantain than a Su35 and has the same number of hardpoints and same weight carrying capacity as that of a fully loaded F16Blk52 rest you can speculate yourself


Yes it would be similar to F-16 blk52. Hence it is not desired.

What PAF wants is something to counter Rafales and also to a point be stealth enough to penetrate deep inside Indian defences. Which Mig-35's fail to address. PAF larger goal is towards stealth aircraft hence it is paramount to have a capable engine that can power the future projects. RD93 engines are good but they can not be used on future stealth aircraft. 

With these points reconsider Mig-35.

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## Muhammad Omar

Zain Malik said:


> Coming Soon Eurofighter Typhoon



Coming Soon When after 20 years?


----------



## Mentee

GURU DUTT said:


> no just forget su35 for two main reasons
> 
> 1. Indian lobby will never let that happen plus its a nightmare to mantain them even with new engines
> 
> 2. JF17 already uses the same engine as Mig29 which also are almost half the price as Su35
> 
> last but not the least Mig29 has the same load carrying capacity as F16s plus it has every thing from long range radars , HMDS , HOBS ,IRST'and a very good combat range so to fullfill all the requirements of PAF


@Max don't know why folks get jealous of our grocery purchases -----we are Indian cats we wont let it happen-----chacha g if you don't mind can we have some Russian chocolates


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## Zain Malik

Muhammad Omar said:


> Coming Soon When after 20 years?


 No after about 20 months.....!!


----------



## volatile

Muhammad Omar said:


> well after 39 pages of discussion can we know about the expected date or month of the deal??


Who and Why this thread was started other than spending time in Ramzan

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## [Bregs]

Muhammad Omar said:


> well after 39 pages of discussion can we know about the expected date or month of the deal??



well bro still far better then india's 12 yrs old mrca deal

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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes it would be similar to F-16 blk52. Hence it is not desired.
> 
> What PAF wants is something to counter Rafales and also to a point be stealth enough to penetrate deep inside Indian defences. Which Mig-35's fail to address. PAF larger goal is towards stealth aircraft hence it is paramount to have a capable engine that can power the future projects. RD93 engines are good but they can not be used on future stealth aircraft.
> 
> With these points reconsider Mig-35.


you are forgetting the much much bigger combat radius (750+Km of Mig29 on internal fuel only) as against 500 Km of Blk52 that too with CFT and all those AESA radar and AESA based EW-ECM suites and HMDS-HOBS and two internal IRST sensors

as for RD93 isnt the same engine used in testing going on for J31 ?


----------



## Muhammad Omar

[Bregs] said:


> well bro still far better then india's 12 yrs old mrca deal



And tejas finally being inducted after 32 Years...

Just take it as a joke please



volatile said:


> Who and Why this thread was started other than spending time in Ramzan



well Most of the Mods and elite members said that Haris Khan is a reliable Source

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## GURU DUTT

Muhammad Omar said:


> And tejas finally being inducted after 32 Years...
> 
> Just take it as a joke please
> 
> 
> 
> well Most of the Mods and elite members said that Haris Khan is a reliable Source


why bring tejas here 

anyway its funding started in 1993 and it flew for first time in 2001 so as per you differnce between 1993 and 2016 in 32

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## volatile

Muhammad Omar said:


> well Most of the Mods and elite members said that Haris Khan is a reliable Source


Was his source is reliable in the past ?


----------



## Muhammad Omar

GURU DUTT said:


> why bring tejas here
> 
> anyway its funding started in 1993 and it flew for first time in 2001 so as per you differnce between 1993 and 2016 in 32



it was just a Joke (sense of Humor) 

Well the Program Started in 1983...


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> as for RD93 isnt the same engine used in testing going on for J31 ?


Yes.
Still it is a smoky engine not ideal for stealth aircraft. No thrust vectoring and no supper cruse. Basically under powered.



GURU DUTT said:


> anyway its funding started in 1993 and it flew for first time in 2001 so as per you differnce between 1993 and 2016 in 32


Project R&D started even before I was born.


----------



## aliyusuf

volatile said:


> Was his source is reliable in the past ?



A majority of them. But, nobody has been 100% correct.

However, since he is an insider of sorts ... I wouldn't be surprised if later on it turns out that he was used to spread misinformation to throw everyone off on what the PAF is really up to or not.


----------



## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes.
> Still it is a smoky engine not ideal for stealth aircraft. No thrust vectoring and no supper cruse. Basically under powered.
> 
> 
> Project R&D started even before I was born.
> 
> 
> Yes.
> Still it is a smoky engine not ideal for stealth aircraft. No thrust vectoring and no supper cruse. Basically under powered.
> 
> 
> Project R&D started even before I was born.


what makes you think russians cant make a smoke free and add thrust vectoring to RD93 well read again they have already done that in Mig35 

lets not bring tejas here but even then a project R&D only starts when the funding is cleared and taking into account indian economy almost was in its most misrable time plus all those tech sanctions 

but main thing is what according to you is the best future fighter for PAF till J31 comes


----------



## volatile

aliyusuf said:


> A majority of them. But, nobody has been 100% correct.
> 
> However, since he is an insider of sorts ... I wouldn't be surprised if later on it turns out that he was used to spread misinformation to throw everyone off on what the PAF is really up to or not.


just for our knowledge can you name the few ?


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

GURU DUTT said:


> but main thing is what according to you is the best future fighter for PAF till J31 comes


Ideal or Realistic?

Ideal 
60-80 F-16 block 52 or higher. along with 40 F-15 SE. 

Realistic
Su-35 or EF.


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## GURU DUTT

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Ideal or Realistic?
> 
> Ideal
> 60-80 F-16 block 52 or higher. along with 40 F-15 SE.
> 
> Realistic
> Su-35 or EF.


sirji mark my words either its gonna be used F16s or Mig29 (same what egypt just baught)


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## CHI RULES

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Technically the SAM systems like STAR WARS project can potentially take out satellite systems of enemy countries provided they can be tracked effectively.


India doesn't have so far such system. Even USA can't claim 100% air defense through SAMs.

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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> sirji mark my words either its gonna be used F16s or Mig29 (same what egypt just baught)



how are you so sure about which aircraft Pakistan will buy ?


----------



## GURU DUTT

CHI RULES said:


> India doesn't have so far such system. Even USA can't claim 100% air defense through SAMs.


thats why you by so many expensive war birds and waste billions of dollars every year to train and mantain on them



[Bregs] said:


> how are you so sure about which aircraft Pakistan will buy ?


well my so called "chirria"a very good friend of mine from ....... its a secret


----------



## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> At what service ceiling do you think the survivability rate is higher?


Dear Sir, sorry for late reply but any aircraft having speed of Mach 2.2+ and service ceiling of above 60,000ft in case of Indo Pak scenario shall be quite capable both for recon or deep penetration. Jets like J15/16 or Su35 with capable AESA,IRST and capable next gen EW suite are quite capable also having some stealth features.



GURU DUTT said:


> thats why you by so many expensive war birds and waste billions of dollars every year to train and mantain on them
> 
> 
> well my so called "chirria"a very good friend of mine from ....... its a sectret


Sir,
So far comparatively PAF has not mad any expensive purchases in recent past apart from 18 F16 block 52 jets.But your wording is quite true for IAF.

To EF is more difficult to obtain even if we manage the finances than Su35. Though EF is much better in looks yet Su35 is giant which is true multirole heavy jet. Even as described it's powerful PESA radar is quite difficult to Jam and can also detect true stealthy platforms at BVR ranges.

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## aliyusuf

@volatile 

I may not remember exactly when and what ... but off hand information about the progress of the JF-17, EDA F-16s arrival ... is what comes to mind, His snippets are not just limited to the Air Force forum ... but that is usually the place I frequent.

Sorry I can't give u more specifics but he has done enough to have earned the respect of the senior PakDef members and that perception is generally permeated across that forum.


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## volatile

aliyusuf said:


> @volatile
> 
> I may not remember exactly when and what ... but off hand information about the progress of the JF-17, EDA F-16s arrival ... is what comes to mind, His snippets are not just limited to the Air Force forum ... but that is usually the place I frequent.
> 
> Sorry I can't give u more specifics but he has done enough to have earned the respect of the senior PakDef members and that perception is generally permeated across that forum.


fair enough comments ,its just too much speculations coupled with anxiety

Hi can any one shed light about BRITAIN moving away from EU specially what will happen about Euro fighter consortium


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## Stephen Cohen

GURU DUTT said:


> sirji mark my words either its gonna be used F16s or Mig29 (same what egypt just baught)



MIG 29 -- Then we should try to stop it


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## GURU DUTT

Stephen Cohen said:


> MIG 29 -- Then we should try to stop it


but if PAF pays for it in cash i see no reason russia not selling it


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## Stephen Cohen

GURU DUTT said:


> but if PAF pays for it in cash i see no reason russia not selling it



They can BUY a Maximum of TWO Billion dollars of Arms from Russia

We must stop it -- Our deals with Russia are much more


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## omegalamba7XL9

GURU DUTT said:


> but if PAF pays for it in cash i see no reason russia not selling it


Same is true for SU35 or any other equipment from Russia. If Pakistan pays for it then nothing can stop Russia to sell the required weapon system to Pakistan.


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## GURU DUTT

omegalamba7XL9 said:


> Same is true for SU35 or any other equipment from Russia. If Pakistan pays for it then nothing can stop Russia to sell the required weapon system to Pakistan.


i agree with you sir and good luck with it

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## Basel

Stephen Cohen said:


> MIG 29 -- Then we should try to stop it



PAF have rejected Mig-29 during 90s when they were suffering from sanctions, now it will be better to invest in JFT if no frontline jet is available or in reach, JFT should be developed into JFT-NG with at least like Hornet to Super Hornet / Growler.

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## Zain Malik

GURU DUTT said:


> well my so called "chirria"a very good friend of mine from ....... its a secret


JUST UR ASSUMPTIONS......


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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Dear Sir, sorry for late reply but any aircraft having speed of Mach 2.2+ and service ceiling of above 60,000ft in case of Indo Pak scenario shall be quite capable both for recon or deep penetration. Jets like J15/16 or Su35 with capable AESA,IRST and capable next gen EW suite are quite capable also having some stealth features.



Hi,

How many aircraft have a service ceiling of 60000 and how many fly at that ceiling during operations---hardly any.

Loaded fighter aircraft cannot even reach that ceiling----they stay in 20---30 thousand feet envelope for their missions.

The turks have flown the old Phantom with the next gen EW suite---and same with the chinese for their JH7B's.

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## omegalamba7XL9

GURU DUTT said:


> i agree with you sir and good luck with it


No thank you for being honest and blunt about the facts. Highly appreciated


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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> How many aircraft have a service ceiling of 60000 and how many fly at that ceiling during operations---hardly any.
> 
> Loaded fighter aircraft cannot even reach that ceiling----they stay in 20---30 thousand feet envelope for their missions.
> 
> The turks have flown the old Phantom with the next gen EW suite---and same with the chinese for their JH7B's.



Sir Mig 25 Foxbat had service ceiling much higher than 60,000 ft similarly F15s have higher ceiling, Rafaels have same case. At least at the time of penetration they may fly high and for recon missions Mig 25s have already achieved high flying records.

I personally believe that even armed J15/16s have service ceiling between 58 to 60,000 ft. JH7b having only powerful EW suit or to be BVR capable can't compete in modern warfare with high RCS and less maneuverability.


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## Bonito Boy

I Think...SU-35 is the best choice for PAF


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## Centurion2016

Typhoon or rafale su35 would all be excellent additions and would worry Indians too much

All three fighters are way above anything in pak Air Force today including the single squadron of block 52 you have today


Even the much vaunted Mki of India would struggle again such power technology and weapons load of all three super mid fourth to lates fourth gen fighters.

I have always suggested to really meet the massive su30 Mki threat paf needs more than 70 odd Falcons .

Thunder forget guys way too limited in ew radars and weapons twr and range. 

Now add three squadrons of Thyphoons would simple rebalance the whole scenario.

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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Sir Mig 25 Foxbat had service ceiling much higher than 60,000 ft similarly F15s have higher ceiling, Rafaels have same case. At least at the time of penetration they may fly high and for recon missions Mig 25s have already achieved high flying records.
> 
> I personally believe that even armed J15/16s have service ceiling between 58 to 60,000 ft. JH7b having only powerful EW suit or to be BVR capable can't compete in modern warfare with high RCS and less maneuverability.




Sir,

Please stop the---. You are clueless and are winging it left and right.

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Please stop the---. You are clueless and are winging it left and right.


Leave him alone Sir just wait PAF boss may visit Russia really soon. We are looking at both SU-35 and Mig-35.

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## Ultima Thule

CHI RULES said:


> Sir Mig 25 Foxbat had service ceiling much higher than 60,000 ft similarly F15s have higher ceiling, Rafaels have same case. At least at the time of penetration they may fly high and for recon missions Mig 25s have already achieved high flying records.
> 
> I personally believe that even armed J15/16s have service ceiling between 58 to 60,000 ft. JH7b having only powerful EW suit or to be BVR capable can't compete in modern warfare with high RCS and less maneuverability.


he is saying with armament without armament MIG-25 record it was 125000 ft and he is right most fighters can fly with armament 20,000 to 30,000 ft enough is enough lets say 40,0000 ft


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## WaLeEdK2

Zarvan said:


> Leave him alone Sir just wait PAF boss may visit Russia really soon. We are looking at both SU-35 and Mig-35.



When is the air chief visiting Russia? Is this just another fairytale that has been rumoured and deemed to be true or is he actually going?


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## Zarvan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> When is the air chief visiting Russia? Is this just another fairytale that has been rumoured and deemed to be true or is he actually going?


Well soon really soon. I had no clue about it until few days ago but things are moving fast between Russia and Pakistan.


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Leave him alone Sir just wait PAF boss may visit Russia really soon. We are looking at both SU-35 and Mig-35.


are you you AIR CHIEF?


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## Beethoven

Can somebody please educate me as to why are we hell bent on supporting the purchase of an aircraft that your enemy knows inside out???? I've said it before and i'll say it again if you want to go for a heavy twin engine fighter go for Eurofighter Tranche 3.....Kuwait is also going for it...it has AESA and all the goodies that we need to counter the IAF....

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## bazil

I agree why go for an aircraft the enemy knows inside out. we have no choice besides euro fighter. otherwise we have only 5th Gen Chinese option who knows how credible a threat that will be


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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> Leave him alone Sir just wait PAF boss may visit Russia really soon. We are looking at both SU-35 and Mig-35.



You forgot to mention Su-30SM/M2, Mig-35 is not finished product and Mig-29s can be upgraded to that level so what's special in it? Also Mig-29 series is plagued with construction quality issues.


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## WaLeEdK2

If the Su-35 rumour is true then Pakistan will attempt to procure at least 25 of them. Euro fighter is too expensive as well as Rafale. 

It's a shame that the army gets a bigger piece of the defence budget than airforce. The Quaid use to stress about air power being the most important aspect of the armed forces. 

It should be: airforce>navy>army


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## karakoram

bazil said:


> I agree why go for an aircraft the enemy knows inside out. we have no choice besides euro fighter. otherwise we have only 5th Gen Chinese option who knows how credible a threat that will be


How much EF cost and maintenance plus service ? Its a wet dream we cant even purchase 8 f 16s block 52 and you are talking about EF amazing


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## Ultima Thule

Basel said:


> You forgot to mention Su-30SM/M2, Mig-35 is not finished product and Mig-29s can be upgraded to that level so what's special in it? Also Mig-29 series is plagued with construction quality issues.


Not finished product than why they shown in the international airshows


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## WaLeEdK2

karakoram said:


> How much EF cost and maintenance plus service ? Its a wet dream we cant even purchase 8 f 16s block 52 and you are talking about EF amazing



Sir, we can purchase those 8 f-16s but it's not worth it paying it alone. Under the initial financing arrangement, the US was to pay about $430 million for the eight jets worth $699 million while the remaining cost was to be paid by Pakistan itself.


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## karakoram

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Sir, we can purchase those 8 f-16s but it's not worth it paying it alone. Under the initial financing arrangement, the US was to pay about $430 million for the eight jets worth $699 million while the remaining cost was to be paid by Pakistan itself.


EFT (UK version):

2006 – 143,8 million USD per plane program unit cost (118,6 million USD per plane w.s. flyaway), Tranche 2 (?) (102,8 and 141,9 million USD German version).

2008 – 122 million USD per plane (68.9 million GBP, 77.7 million EUR) w.s. flyaway

2009 – 90 million EUR per plane (141 million USD) (Tranche 3)

2011 – 199 million USD per plane program unit cost (121,5 million USD per w.s. plane flyaway), Tranche 3

18 000 USD per hour of flight operating cost

199 MILLION a piece plus 18000 usd per hour flight cost is it a joke to maintain a such a costly bird by PAF. Even india rejected it because of its price tag. Our approach should be realistic. We hardly maintain our F16s which have 7000 dollors per flying hour. I wish to purchase a lamborghini but settled with honda city IDSI because of money  i hope you got my point.

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## Skyliner

I personally like n prefer Typhoon over SU-35.
If PAF is going for Typhoon (little chance) i don't think it's is good time to go for it as the situation in EUROPE is bit tense as day by day more countries are trying to get out of europe (don't know what will be the outcome )...it may cause problems n hurdles in getting this plane or in maintenance after induction.

Btw cause of this EUR has lost at least 10% value in international market up till now that's the plus point.


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## WaLeEdK2

karakoram said:


> EFT (UK version):
> 
> 2006 – 143,8 million USD per plane program unit cost (118,6 million USD per plane w.s. flyaway), Tranche 2 (?) (102,8 and 141,9 million USD German version).
> 
> 2008 – 122 million USD per plane (68.9 million GBP, 77.7 million EUR) w.s. flyaway
> 
> 2009 – 90 million EUR per plane (141 million USD) (Tranche 3)
> 
> 2011 – 199 million USD per plane program unit cost (121,5 million USD per w.s. plane flyaway), Tranche 3
> 
> 18 000 USD per hour of flight operating cost
> 
> 199 MILLION a piece plus 18000 usd per hour flight cost is it a joke to maintain a such a costly bird by PAF. Even india rejected it because of its price tag. Our approach should be realistic. We hardly maintain our F16s which have 7000 dollors per flying hour. I wish to purchase a lamborghini but settled with honda city IDSI because of money  i hope you got my point.



Sir, I know the EFT is too expensive. I made that clear in my first post


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## The SC

*




*
*Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35?*

Pakistan reportedly confirms Su-35 talks with Russia

By Bilal Khan

19 September 2015

It has been an interesting month for Russian-Pakistani relations. On the heels of a successfully concluded sale of an initial batch of four Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan, reports about possible aircraft sales to Pakistan, most notably the Yak-130 and Su-35, began emerging. While there is no doubt that Pakistan’s commercial defence ties with Russia have improved considerably in the past few years (e.g. the vital role the Russians are playing by providing the RD-93 turbofan for use on the JF-17), I maintained (and still do) that it is important to manage expectations. A sudden jump to acquiring the Su-35, arguably Russia’s most advanced combat fighter on offer to the international fighter market, should not presumed.

For some background on this issue. On September 9th 2015 the Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia, Sergei Ryabkov, reportedly said that Russia was in talks with Pakistan over the sale of the Sukhoi Su-35. Although only one media source reported it (albeit a fairly credible one, Sputnik International), I felt this was not enough to indicate that there was enough smoke to infer a fire. Turns out, there may be a bit of a fire after all. A senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane’s 360 that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was in fact in talks with Russia over the sale of Su-35-Es, but noted that talks were in their very early stages.

This is, without doubt, very big news. Not only does this lend credence to the talk about Pakistan expressing interest in the Su-35, but it also spells out several other implications as well. The first is the obvious impact this deal would have on Russia’s relations with India, and would necessitate the question of why Russia is even humouring such talks with Pakistan. The second implication is the apparent shift this would cause within the PAF’s doctrine, which until now has been defensive in nature (emphasizing the need to deny enemy air superiority) and not catered for long-range missions.

*How will Russia get this deal past India?*
The Indian dimension deserves a few articles in its own right, especially given New Delhi’s longstanding all-weather ties with Moscow and the interdependence of these two powers in the realm of defence. Yes, India is Russia’s leading importer and partner, but Russia is also India’s leading vendor and – despite India’s indigenous efforts – a preferred supplier of cutting-edge arms. It would be disingenuous to argue that one could thrive without the other. Russia needs India’s money and India needs Russia to competently equip, service and upgrade a significant proportion (if not majority) of its critical military equipment. I wonder if Russia is banking on this fact as a means to negate whatever pressure India plans to exert against a possible Su-35 sale that is apparently in the making between Moscow and Islamabad.

*Why is Russia looking to conduct business with Pakistan?*
Another, and increasingly cited, angle is that of Russia’s own geostrategic objectives, such as this article by former Indian ambassador to Uzbekistan and Turkey M.K. Bhadrakumar. In his piece Bhadrakumar argued that Russia and China could “_coordinate their regional policies and the two big powers could be moving in tandem to strengthen Pakistan’s ‘strategic autonomy.’” _According to Bhadrakumar this would be done through a mix of heavy economic investments as well as liberal access to advanced arms, thus gradually pulling Pakistan away from the heavy foreign relations influence of the U.S.

Personally, I would caution observers from adopting this point. Yes, there is an incentive for China and Russia to see a policy independent Pakistan capable of and willing to stand for its own interests in opposition to the U.S. However, Russia and China are not expansionary world powers looking to out-influence the U.S in other countries. China is Pakistan’s closest and most trusted defence partner, but that relationship has not translated into Pakistan taking an assertive stance against the U.S. on issues such as Afghanistan. That will depend on Pakistan itself and the capacity (as well as willingness) of its key decision-makers to consciously pull away from Washington. Investment from China and trade from Russia could help those decision-makers (and their ability to maintain an independent foreign policy), but those decision-makers actually need to exist in the first place, they will not come as a result of China and Russia’s efforts.

In the end the simplest explanation could be the most likely one, i.e. the fact that Russia may just be looking for another big market for its high-value goods. Yes a lot has and will be said about the capacity of the Pakistani economy to meet that expectation, but there may be some hope on the part of Russian exporters that Pakistan’s medium-to-long-term prospects will improve substantially in tandem with China’s massive infrastructure investments. It is unlikely that Pakistan would pay in hard cold cash, thus a financing plan (which Russia does provide) will likely be requested, so it will be interesting to see Russia’s terms (assuming talks reach an advanced enough stage).

*Why is the PAF pursuing the Su-35?*
This is an important question. The entirety of the PAF’s fighter fleet is currently composed of light and medium-weight single engine fighters. In fact, never in its history did the PAF operate a heavy twin-engine long-range combat platform akin to the Su-35 (or its major Western counterparts, e.g. the F-15E Strike Eagle). While the PAF does possess some offensive capabilities in its inventory, e.g. the 350km-range Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM), it does not operate full out offensive platforms that are capable of carrying hefty payloads across long distances.

Here is a brief comparison of the JF-17’s physical performance parameters (e.g. range and payload) to that of the Su-35 (taken from one of my previous pieces):

_The Su-35 possesses considerable range and payload, especially when compared to the up and coming PAF mainstay, the JF-17. For example, the ferry range of the JF-17 is 3482km (link), the Su-35’s ferry range sits at 4200km (link). In terms of take-off weight the JF-17 and Su-35 run at 12,383kg (link) and 34,500kg (link), respectively._

It is clear from the above that the Su-35 would offer a significant range and payload improvement over the JF-17. The question is, why is the PAF looking to acquire this kind of power?

In terms of how a long-range twin-engine fighter would be valuable as a maritime and power projection asset, retired PAF Air Commodore and former PAF fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail said the following:

_The Su-35 “being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view),” he said. “Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned._

_… “This has been a yawning gap in [the air force’s] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea,” _DefenseNews

In a similar vein, a senior Pakistani government official told Farhan Bokhari that the PAF was interested in building its capacity to engage in deep-strike missions:

_The official said Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter “that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory”. _IHS Jane’s 360

Maritime and deep-strike missions are essentially the two primary reasons why the PAF would look at the Su-35, but it does not answer why there is a shift in doctrine. Why is the PAF concerned about strengthening its capacity to engage in maritime missions and why is it looking to build deep-strike fleet?

It is important to remember that Pakistan is not an expansionist power looking to assert itself in the affairs of other countries. One of the motivations behind a country’s desire to build power projection capabilities is the need to expand its domain of influence, but that is not something Pakistan would engage in. The real reason behind this sudden interest in the Su-35 (and possibly similar platforms) may be found within the Pakistani military’s doctrine of minimum deterrence.

In other words, it is possible that the necessary threshold of conventional capabilities required to maintain minimum deterrence against India has grown, and consequently, necessitates a platform such as the Su-35. A quick look at the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force’s significant modernization programs will lend to this point. There will be a time when Pakistani ports would have be safeguarded against multiple Indian aircraft carriers (and their carrier groups/support fleets). Even if the Pakistan Navy were to acquire a sizable number of multi-mission frigates and submarines, it would still need the support of the PAF to help protect its assets from enemy aircraft, and India’s naval air arm is fast becoming a critical threat.

In terms of building its deep-strike capabilities, it is possible that the PAF sees the advent of force multipliers such as in-flight refuelling aircraft as enablers for India to use its eastern territory as staging grounds for attacks on Pakistan. Platforms such as the Su-35 (especially when paired with ALCMs) can be seen as assets to help address that concern.

*Managing Expectations*
Perhaps the biggest takeaway from this news is the fact that the PAF is looking to procure a heavy twin-engine long-range fighter such as the Su-35. Whether it decides to or is able to acquire this fighter is another story, but this saga does lend a hint as to the PAF’s future acquisition plans. It will also be interesting to see how other vendors such as the Eurofighter Consortium or even Boeing (though I would not hold my breath) would respond to this apparent shift in the PAF’s thinking. In any case, we will find out in the months ahead.

http://quwa.org/2015/09/19/why-is-pakistan-looking-at-su-35/

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## CHI RULES

pakistanipower said:


> he is saying with armament without armament MIG-25 record it was 125000 ft and he is right most fighters can fly with armament 20,000 to 30,000 ft enough is enough lets say 40,0000 ft


with Four Missiles Mig 25 ceiling is up to 80,000Ft.


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## fitpOsitive

It is NSF(No Such Fighterjet) by NSC(No Such Country).
BTW good trolling. 
Koi haya hoti hai....koi sharam hoti hai.


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## MastanKhan

karakoram said:


> How much EF cost and maintenance plus service ? Its a wet dream we cant even purchase 8 f 16s block 52 and you are talking about EF amazing



Hi,

I guess you are the only one who missed the news---at 90 million a pop---the F16 is not worth it---because we cannot get the Aim9X and aim120C7 ---aesa or the latest version with it.

So---at 90 mil a pop if we cannot get the accessories---the F16 is not worth that money anymore----.

So---we would rather spend 150 mil a pop and get an aircraft that comes with the most potent toys.

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## Tipu7

Sir,
Since news is circulating for a while,
What is your personal wish now?
You want EFT? Su35? or still stick to Jh7b?


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I guess you are the only one who missed the news---at 90 million a pop---the F16 is not worth it---because we cannot get the Aim9X and aim120C7 ---aesa or the latest version with it.
> 
> So---at 90 mil a pop if we cannot get the accessories---the F16 is not worth that money anymore----.
> 
> So---we would rather spend 150 mil a pop and get an aircraft that comes with the most potent toys.





The SC said:


> , I maintained (and still do) that it is important to manage expectations. A sudden jump to acquiring the Su-35, arguably Russia’s most advanced combat fighter on offer to the international fighter market, should not presumed.


We added some ''honey'' to make it happen. 
Other wise Russians were forcing 2nd Hand Purchase of Su24 as stop gap before jumping directly to Su35.
Details will come with time but Su24 chapter is close before it even opened here on PDF. ............
@Quwa

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## The SC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I guess you are the only one who missed the news---at 90 million a pop---the F16 is not worth it---because we cannot get the Aim9X and aim120C7 ---aesa or the latest version with it.
> 
> So---at 90 mil a pop if we cannot get the accessories---the F16 is not worth that money anymore----.
> 
> So---we would rather spend 150 mil a pop and get an aircraft that comes with the most potent toys.



At 75 million$ (max) a pop, SU-35 comes with all the goodies and some. That is, if there are some financial issues for procuring the EF Typhoon. both choices are good, I do prefer the option of SU-35, at least a squadron..and wait for 5th G to be inducted in numbers.

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## MastanKhan

Tipu7 said:


> Sir,
> Since news is circulating for a while,
> What is your personal wish now?
> You want EFT? Su35? or still stick to Jh7b?
> 
> 
> 
> We added some ''honey'' to make it happen.
> Other wise Russians were forcing 2nd Hand Purchase of Su24 as stop gap before jumping directly to Su35.
> Details will come with time but Su24 chapter is close before it even opened here on PDF. ............
> @Quwa



Hi,

I would rather have the JH7B for a strike and growler type aircraft---and EFT for air superiority---because now we have a vendor that can fulfill some of our avionics needs---if we need to.

And for those considering the 5th gen aircraft----they will be surprised to know---that the 5th gen aircraft for small countries does not have a silver bullet---.

You will have to have the support of the 4 / 4.5 gen heavy aircraft in the periphery for the 5 th gen to be very successful in operation.

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## Tipu7

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would rather have the JH7B for a strike and growler type aircraft---and EFT for air superiority---because now we have a vendor that can fulfill some of our avionics needs---if we need to.


So no Su35?
Plus, don't you think you over estimate Chinese ECM capabilities ? Particularly as far as ''Growler like ECM'' is concerned ?


----------



## MastanKhan

Tipu7 said:


> So no Su35?
> Plus, don't you think you over estimate Chinese ECM capabilities ? Particularly as far as ''Growler like ECM'' is concerned ?



Hi,

I am more interested in its long range heavy load carrying capability.

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## Basel

pakistanipower said:


> Not finished product than why they shown in the international airshows



What they show is modified Mig-29, not finished Mig-35, you can google it.


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## Zain Malik

Tipu7 said:


> So no Su35?
> Plus, don't you think you over estimate Chinese ECM capabilities ? Particularly as far as ''Growler like ECM'' is concerned ?


 No After getting membership of Shanghai Cooperation Sartaj Aziz said that the technical relations between Pakistan and Russia will meet their highest point.......There is only a single mean of this statement....
SU-35 in future

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## weqi

Zain Malik said:


> No After getting membership of Shanghai Cooperation Sartaj Aziz said that the technical relations between Pakistan and Russia will meet their highest point.......There is only a single mean of this statement....
> SU-35 in future



optimistic! Russia voted against India in NSG

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## Ultima Thule

CHI RULES said:


> with Four Missiles Mig 25 ceiling is up to 80,000Ft.


no way MIG-25 can cruise 80,000+ ft with 4 missiles give me a reliable source Please and don't post crapy wikipedia links

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## CHI RULES

pakistanipower said:


> no way MIG-25 can cruise 80,000+ ft with 4 missiles give me a reliable source Please and don't post crapy wikipedia links


what was ceiling of Mig25 which passed above key cities of Pak unharmed.


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## Ultima Thule

CHI RULES said:


> what was ceiling of Mig25 which passed above key cities of Pak unharmed.


but that wasn't the interceptor variant of MIG-25, its a MIG-25R which is unarmed versions of MIG-25 cruising at 66,000 ft Mr be logical, don't fool yourself


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## danger007

weqi said:


> optimistic! Russia voted against India in NSG




enough said... 

https://in.rbth.com/news/2016/06/24/russia-believes-india-may-join-nuclear-suppliers-group_606071

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## ACE OF THE AIR

What are you both trying to prove?
MIG -25's were shot down by F-14's of Iran Air Force.



CHI RULES said:


> what was ceiling of Mig25 which passed above key cities of Pak unharmed.





pakistanipower said:


> but that wasn't the interceptor variant of MIG-25, its a MIG-25R which is unarmed versions of MIG-25 cruising at 66,000 ft Mr be logical, don't fool yourself


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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> What are you both trying to prove?
> MIG -25's were shot down by F-14's of Iran Air Force.


 i will try to correct his foolishness, he trying say that *ALL FIGHTER CAN GO THEIR TOP ALTITUDE WITH PAYLOADS*


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## volatile

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would rather have the JH7B for a strike and growler type aircraft---and EFT for air superiority---because now we have a vendor that can fulfill some of our avionics needs---if we need to.
> 
> And for those considering the 5th gen aircraft----they will be surprised to know---that the 5th gen aircraft for small countries does not have a silver bullet---.
> 
> You will have to have the support of the 4 / 4.5 gen heavy aircraft in the periphery for the 5 th gen to be very successful in operation.


totally correct ,Idea about thrust vectoring ,IRST doctrines and specially 5th Gen limited load carriage in stealth mode so 4++ Gen compliments it very well ,I personally dont like the idea of skipping generations by PAF specially with 5th and 6th Gen story told by AM couple of months back ,Its good to assess the future but better to live in present other wise past will always haunt you

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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakistanipower said:


> i will try to correct his foolishness, he trying say that *ALL FIGHTER CAN GO THEIR TOP ALTITUDE WITH PAYLOADS*


Yes they do carry PAY LOAD at MAXIMUM CERTIFIED ALTITUDE. However MAXIMUM DESIGN ALTITUDE is higher to calculate stress tests.

An aircraft can be operated on Maximum Design Altitude with Maximum Payload but it is not recommended.

@CHI RULES Hope this is enough to end this argument.

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## danger007

Basel said:


> PAF have rejected Mig-29 during 90s when they were suffering from sanctions, now it will be better to invest in JFT if no frontline jet is available or in reach, JFT should be developed into JFT-NG with at least like Hornet to Super Hornet / Growler.



Former Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov’s book “Years in Big Politics” (original Russian title: Gody v Bolshoi Politike) published in 1999. Since the Soviet collapse Academician Primakov was chief of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) till his appointment as Foreign Minister in January 1996 by President Boris Yeltsin.
He writes that in early 1990s Pakistan had requested for Sukhoi Su-27 fighters from Russia, which were the best warplane at that time. According to Primakov, the Russian Foreign Ministry (then headed by Andrei Kozyrev) had cleared the deal. However, the Kremlin referred it to SVR.
“We asked the Pakistani side, do they have funds to buy the planes? They replied, yes, they have agreement with Saudi Arabia. We cross-checked through our channels and found it was not true. SVR established that it was a grand foreign plot to scuttle Russia’s military-technical cooperation with India,” former Russian Prime Minister Primakov wrote in his book.

How serious is the offer? Ryabkov is a junior minister in Russian cabinet. But making an offer to a financially insolvent client . Making it stick is a different ball game. Approval for the sale will have to go through several rungs of the Russian parliament Duma and the military, plus there are higher powers in Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who can overrule Ryabkov. So there’s every possibility that the Su-35 for Pakistan will end up...

source .. RBTH ..

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## ConcealCarry

@mods @waz @Oscar @Horus Check this



danger007 said:


> But making an offer to a financially insolvent client – *that is also an exporter of terror* – is one thing.

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## danger007

ConcealCarry said:


> @mods @waz @Oscar @Horus Check this




I just posted it from source.. I didn't edited anything..


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## abdulbarijan

danger007 said:


> Former Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov’s book “Years in Big Politics” (original Russian title: Gody v Bolshoi Politike) published in 1999. Since the Soviet collapse Academician Primakov was chief of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) till his appointment as Foreign Minister in January 1996 by President Boris Yeltsin.
> He writes that in early 1990s Pakistan had requested for Sukhoi Su-27 fighters from Russia, which were the best warplane at that time. According to Primakov, the Russian Foreign Ministry (then headed by Andrei Kozyrev) had cleared the deal. However, the Kremlin referred it to SVR.
> “We asked the Pakistani side, do they have funds to buy the planes? They replied, yes, they have agreement with Saudi Arabia. We cross-checked through our channels and found it was not true. SVR established that it was a grand foreign plot to scuttle Russia’s military-technical cooperation with India,” former Russian Prime Minister Primakov wrote in his book.
> 
> How serious is the offer? Ryabkov is a junior minister in Russian cabinet. But making an offer to a financially insolvent client – that is also an exporter of terror – is one thing. Making it stick is a different ball game. Approval for the sale will have to go through several rungs of the Russian parliament Duma and the military, plus there are higher powers in Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who can overrule Ryabkov. So there’s every possibility that the Su-35 for Pakistan will end up...
> 
> source .. RBTH ..





danger007 said:


> *I just posted it from source.. I didn't edited anything*..



Correction --

*Source* : Rakesh Krishnan Simha AND Vinay Shukla (FROM RTBH BLOGS)

Following are the screen caps and the links









https://in.rbth.com/blogs/the_flyin...hina-pakistan-axis-haunts-indian-minds_408719






http://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than_fiction/2015/09/18/su-35s-for-pak-pie-in-the-sky_425933

So at this point we know the following:

-You posted two paragraphs together, in continuation and advertised their source to be RTBH

*-Both these paragraphs were CHERRY PICKED and here is the kicker, they were not cherry picked from different parts of a single article -- No-- You went with cherry picking from DIFFERENT ARTICLES altogether.*

-*"Coincidentally" BOTH *these "RTBH articles" had *Indian writers *which showed especially in the second paragraph of the post. 

-As far as the *credibility* of these Indian writers/articles, well these articles* were posted on the BLOGS* section of RTBH (the website you cited as your source)

*Lastly, please don't take us for fools ... your a senior member here and I suppose you do know how to use the darn quote button and be clear, if you want to make a real point instead of misleading people ... *

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## PDF

@Tipu7 @Basel @Blue Marlin @ACE OF THE AIR @waz 
Will Brexit have any impact if we select euro typhoon? And How will the process proceed now?


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## danger007

abdulbarijan said:


> Correction --
> 
> *Source* : Rakesh Krishnan Simha AND Vinay Shukla (FROM RTBH BLOGS)
> 
> Following are the screen caps and the links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://in.rbth.com/blogs/the_flyin...hina-pakistan-axis-haunts-indian-minds_408719
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than_fiction/2015/09/18/su-35s-for-pak-pie-in-the-sky_425933
> 
> So at this point we know the following:
> 
> -You posted two paragraphs together, in continuation and advertised their source to be RTBH
> 
> *-Both these paragraphs were CHERRY PICKED and here is the kicker, they were not cherry picked from different parts of a single article -- No-- You went with cherry picking from DIFFERENT ARTICLES altogether.*
> 
> -*"Coincidentally" BOTH *these articles had *Indian writers*
> 
> -As far as the *credibility* of these Indian writers/articles, well these articles* were posted on the BLOGS* section of RTBH (the website you cited as your source)
> 
> *Lastly, please don't take us for fools ... your a senior member here and I suppose you do know how to use the darn quote button if you want to make a real point instead of misleading people ... *




If you can, just read the Book. those articles already posted.. so i just pointed out the reason.. why the proposal not materialised...

***I use mobile so selecting entire article or highlighting bit time taking.. i posted 1st part and 2nd part separately but merged into one due to less time difference..


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## Zain Malik

weqi said:


> optimistic! Russia voted against India in NSG


 Russia have realized the cunningness of India....!!!



M.Musa said:


> And How will the process proceed now?


 There are about 70% chances that Pakistan will purchase 1-2 squardons of EFT from Germany after the COAS visit to Germany...!!!

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## danger007

danger007 said:


> Former Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov’s book “Years in Big Politics” (original Russian title: Gody v Bolshoi Politike) published in 1999. Since the Soviet collapse Academician Primakov was chief of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) till his appointment as Foreign Minister in January 1996 by President Boris Yeltsin.
> He writes that in early 1990s Pakistan had requested for Sukhoi Su-27 fighters from Russia, which were the best warplane at that time. According to Primakov, the Russian Foreign Ministry (then headed by Andrei Kozyrev) had cleared the deal. However, the Kremlin referred it to SVR.
> “We asked the Pakistani side, do they have funds to buy the planes? They replied, yes, they have agreement with Saudi Arabia. We cross-checked through our channels and found it was not true. SVR established that it was a grand foreign plot to scuttle Russia’s military-technical cooperation with India,” former Russian Prime Minister Primakov wrote in his book.
> 
> How serious is the offer? Ryabkov is a junior minister in Russian cabinet. But making an offer to a financially insolvent client . Making it stick is a different ball game. Approval for the sale will have to go through several rungs of the Russian parliament Duma and the military, plus there are higher powers in Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who can overrule Ryabkov. So there’s every possibility that the Su-35 for Pakistan will end up...
> 
> source .. RBTH ..




@HRK why did you gave negative rating.. may I know the reason..
mods already edited that post.. and i told posted it without editing..

@waz @Oscar @WebMaster


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## HRK

^^ For mod before to make any decision in this regards .... I hope they will seek my reason ...

regards,

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## Basel

M.Musa said:


> @Tipu7 @Basel @Blue Marlin @ACE OF THE AIR @waz
> Will Brexit have any impact if we select euro typhoon? And How will the process proceed now?



There should not be any impact on sales of products, remember its about generating revenue. Also Tornado were built and sold when there was no EU (if I m not mistaken).


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## danger007

HRK said:


> ^^ For mod before to make any decision in this regards .... I hope they will seek my reason ...
> 
> regards,




Am asking you the reason for negative rating ??


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## CHI RULES

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes they do carry PAY LOAD at MAXIMUM CERTIFIED ALTITUDE. However MAXIMUM DESIGN ALTITUDE is higher to calculate stress tests.
> 
> An aircraft can be operated on Maximum Design Altitude with Maximum Payload but it is not recommended.
> 
> @CHI RULES Hope this is enough to end this argument.


Sir, I am not pro yet arguments of latest jets operating at 30,000 ft for bombing ground targets looks not correct to me it will be utterly suicide in new era. During Kargil war the Mirage 2000was operating at very high altitudes out of range of SAMS. The Mig 27 or Mig 21 can't destroyed by PA with Anza's can't be considered modern. (Though Mig27 claimed to be destryed by tech error). I hope I have made my point though rather foolishly.


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## Blue Marlin

M.Musa said:


> @Tipu7 @Basel @Blue Marlin @ACE OF THE AIR @waz
> Will Brexit have any impact if we select euro typhoon? And How will the process proceed now?


no


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## Farhan Hashmi

I hope these new jets will be 5th gen and few SU 35 will be included too


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## nomi007

I think j-31 and jf-17bk-03 are our future fighters


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## ACE OF THE AIR

M.Musa said:


> @Tipu7 @Basel @Blue Marlin @ACE OF THE AIR @waz
> Will Brexit have any impact if we select euro typhoon? And How will the process proceed now?


It depends on what we choose. If we get old EFT then there is no problem. Some parts that are made in UK would require Pakistan to direct contract.

If we buy new then things might be different in case EU decides to put an embargo of freedom of goods, to UK. However all the parties would find a workable solution in regards to deliver aircraft to customers. Worst case scenario would be Germany, Italy and Spain upgrading their own assembly plants to manufacture the complete aircraft hence leaving UK to sell individually. 



Basel said:


> There should not be any impact on sales of products, remember its about generating revenue. Also Tornado were built and sold when there was no EU (if I m not mistaken).


The agreement of being an EU member State is 41 years old, hence Tornado was technically a European aircraft.



CHI RULES said:


> Sir, I am not pro yet arguments of latest jets operating at 30,000 ft for bombing ground targets looks not correct to me it will be utterly suicide in new era. During Kargil war the Mirage 2000was operating at very high altitudes out of range of SAMS. The Mig 27 or Mig 21 can't destroyed by PA with Anza's can't be considered modern. (Though Mig27 claimed to be destryed by tech error). I hope I have made my point though rather foolishly.


To understand when and how high level bombing missions are planed you have to understand what kind of threat the enemy holds. If the place that is to be bombed is being protected by low to medium level SAM systems then High level Bombers can be sent. With precision guided bombs. if there is a threat of enemy fighters then fighter aircraft would be sent in advance to neutralize that threat.

If you read the attack on Libya you would understand how the French neutralized the SAM. Then you can also read about Gulf War II where Iraqi radars were destroyed and Iraqi Air Force aircraft were shot down by F-15's.
Afghanistan however did not posses any threat other than stingers hence USAF could use all types of aircraft. B52's loaded Daisy Cutter Bombs bombed the Tora Bora mountains at will.


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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes they do carry PAY LOAD at MAXIMUM CERTIFIED ALTITUDE. However MAXIMUM DESIGN ALTITUDE is higher to calculate stress tests.
> 
> An aircraft can be operated on Maximum Design Altitude with Maximum Payload but it is not recommended.
> 
> @CHI RULES Hope this is enough to end this argument.





CHI RULES said:


> Sir, I am not pro yet arguments of latest jets operating at 30,000 ft for bombing ground targets looks not correct to me it will be utterly suicide in new era. During Kargil war the Mirage 2000was operating at very high altitudes out of range of SAMS. The Mig 27 or Mig 21 can't destroyed by PA with Anza's can't be considered modern. (Though Mig27 claimed to be destryed by tech error). I hope I have made my point though rather foolishly.


why you can't accept the fact all modern fighter has service ceiling 20,000 to 30,000 because you live in your wet dream and fantasy world


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## Basel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> It depends on what we choose. If we get old EFT then there is no problem. Some parts that are made in UK would require Pakistan to direct contract.
> 
> If we buy new then things might be different in case EU decides to put an embargo of freedom of goods, to UK. However all the parties would find a workable solution in regards to deliver aircraft to customers. Worst case scenario would be Germany, Italy and Spain upgrading their own assembly plants to manufacture
> the complete aircraft hence leaving UK to sell individually.
> 
> 
> The agreement of being an EU member State is 41 years old, hence Tornado was technically a European aircraft.
> 
> 
> To understand when and how high level bombing missions are planed you have to understand what kind of threat the enemy holds. If the place that is to be bombed is being protected by low to medium level SAM systems then High level Bombers can be sent. With precision guided bombs. if there is a threat of enemy fighters then fighter aircraft would be sent in advance to neutralize that threat.
> 
> If you read the attack on Libya you would understand how the French neutralized the SAM. Then you can also read about Gulf War II where Iraqi radars were destroyed and Iraqi Air Force aircraft were shot down by F-15's.
> Afghanistan however did not posses any threat other than stingers hence USAF could use all types of aircraft. B52's loaded Daisy Cutter Bombs bombed the Tora Bora mountains at will.



The current brexit is due to the changes made during 1980-90 ( no borders) so UK can work with EU on older agreement / status. @Blue Marlin what is your say, will EU and UK chalk down similar agreement or procedures to avoid issues and conflict.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm


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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakistanipower said:


> why you can't accept the fact all modern fighter has service ceiling 20,000 to 30,000 because you live in your wet dream and fantasy world


Service ceiling of 20000 - 30000 then how come the Greek F-16 intercept Helios B-737-300 that was flying at 35000 with cabin pressure failure over Athens and crashed.

Today Civil aircraft fly at 35000 - 41000 ft. This is due to oxygen requirement. Cabin altitude that is maintained is 6000 - 7000 ft. Next time when you fly ask the cabin crew to show you the cabin altimeter when you are at cruse.

Air force aircraft carry oxygen generators hence they can go even higher.

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## Blue Marlin

Basel said:


> The current brexit is due to the changes made during 1980-90 ( no borders) so UK can work with EU on older agreement / status. @Blue Marlin what is your say, will EU and UK chalk down similar agreement or procedures to avoid issues and conflict.
> 
> http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm


no problems in the first place, work continues as usual

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## volatile

Blue Marlin said:


> no problems in the first place, work continues as usual


Highly doubted as the companies which were solely operated under EU were having EU compliance standards with advent of BREX IT there is a strong chance all previous agreements in which UK was a partner will have to renegotiate with UK again .I have already shared one article in this regard 

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/24/inv...-uk-companies1203PMVODtopLink&linkId=25874027

*British business leaders warned for months that if U.K. voters chose to exile themselves from the European Union, there would be swift, negative consequences.*
On Friday, their fears were realized. The pound was hammered, bank stocks plunged, and investors preyed on companies that do a lot of business in the U.K.

British Airways owner IAG (ICAGY) almost immediately issued a profit warning. The company said it anticipates minimal long-term impact, but it issued a profit warning because of a difficult trading environment and current market volatility.

Low cost airline EasyJet (ESYJY) was slammed. The stock fell over 14% Friday. CEO Carolyn McCall said the company doing everything it can to ensure "the U.K. remains part of the single EU aviation market" so planes can still fly freely around Europe.


Banks take big hits

Aftershocks from the vote were felt widely: Big banks, many of which run their European operations from London's Canary Wharf, were among the hardest hit. Barclays shares were down 20%, Lloyds Bank (LLDTF) 21% and RBS 18%. It's possible that thousands of jobs will be cut in the sector, as many banks have threatened to move their operations out of London.

U.S. banks also got hit, feeling the downsides of the American-British "special relationship."Morgan Stanley (MS) fell over 10%, Citigroup (C) slid over 9% and Goldman Sachs (GS) was down 7%. Invesco (IVZ), an investment firm headquartered in the U.S. but with a substantial presence in the U.K. was the worst performer in the entire S&P 500, falling nearly 14%. The company did not respond to CNNMoney's request for comment.

There's now a real debate if London will remain a global financial capital. In a message sent to staffers, JPMorgan (JPM) CEO Jamie Dimon said the bank's 16,000 employees in the U.K. would continue to serve clients as usual. He warned, however, that the bank may "need to make changes to our European legal entity structure and the location of some roles."

Related: London and European stocks get crushed

Beyond the banks: Automakers, home builders

It wasn't just big banks, though. The FTSE 250, which is made up of mostly mid-sized British companies, plummeted 7.2%.

SAVINGS RATES BY


*Moody's warned that automakers, manufacturers and food producers in Britain could suffer from higher trade barriers and reduced volumes*. The credit ratings agency said increased regulatory risk would hit telecom firms, airlines and drug makers.

Ford (F), which has nearly 14,000 workers in the U.K., fell over 6.5%. The company told CNNMoney it would "take whatever action is needed to ensure that our European business remains competitive," although it has no plans at present to make any changes.

Related: Brexit: Is this like the 2008 financial crisis?

Other U.S. stocks with a big presence in Britain also fell sharply. Companies that make car parts like BorgWarner (BWA) and Delphi Automotive (DLPH) tanked about 10% each. Travel sitePriceline (PCLN, Tech30), which has a lot of revenue coming from Europe, fell over 11% andAmerican Airlines (AAL) (a partner with British Airways) lost over 10%.

House builders were tipped as big losers too. Analysts are worried that a sharp decline in consumer confidence will hurt home sales. Foreign buyers might also find London a much less attractive option for property investment.

There are tremendous levels of uncertainty facing British businesses. London must now establish new trading relationships with its major foreign partners, and determine the immigration status of EU migrants currently working in the U.K.

THere is already a safe matem in Britain as people are comparing it with Trump being elected as US president ,by the way they also have a politician look like and talk like Trump .


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## Wolf

There is going to be a development by Indians in which they will be approving 10.5 billion dollars of purchases including S 400. So, it may impact on our chances of getting Su 35. However, this needs to be seen that when Indians are going to make payments. I hope world won't fall for Indians this time unless they get cash in hand.


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## A2Z

I hope the news is a real and not a rumor. However what I think is this time as well PAF would go for used F-16. They may be getting the jordanian ones and some block 40 or 50s (which they are terming as "high end") from turkey or some european state.

However if I am completely wrong they might go for Su-35 not EFT as EFT is a bit out of PAF's range, though its a potent western platform that is second only to F-22 when we talk about air superiority. Secondly Pakistan's diplomacy is a bit weak to handle UK, Germany, Italy and Spain all together keeping in mind the moment we choose EFT our neighbors will start winning just like the recent F-16 saga.

Moreover in Su-35 vs EFT my personal opinion would also be in Sukhoi's favor as no matter what any western platform is prone to sanctions. We were able to maintain our F-16 in 90s through Turkey and some backdoor channels but Typhoon would hit a dead end in case of sanctions as GCC states are only other countries that operate them and they might break under western pressure. Hence in this scenario Su-35 which china would be operating and also have vast experience in maintaining and manufacturing Flankers will be very helpful.

Lastly we also cannot rule out the possibility of getting Chinese flankers as they too are quite potent and Russians can allow their sale to PAF with Russian engines.

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## ali rajab khattak

I did hear about some sort of negotiations with Russia over buying the Sukhoi Su-30 or 35
Aircraft but I don't know whether we're going to get them or not. does any one have information related to this deal?


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## zebra7

pakistanipower said:


> no way MIG-25 can cruise 80,000+ ft with 4 missiles give me a reliable source Please and don't post crapy wikipedia links



Max altitude attained by MIG 25 was 37,650 metres (123,520 ft) in 1977 31st August by Fedotov.

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## Jana Assassin

mingle said:


> My Guess is EF 2000


Buyin the EF 2000 is a vry bad idea as it is a joint venture, so a scuffle with any of the partner nations can result in parts shortage...


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## Taimur Khurram

Jana Assassin said:


> Buyin the EF 2000 is a vry bad idea as it is a joint venture, so a scuffle with any of the partner nations can result in parts shortage...



And impossible. If they wouldn't sell it to you lot, doubt they would sell it to us.


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## Mssniper966

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.


Could be JF-17 Dual seater....probably will come in kits...as far as su-35 or eurofighter is concerned, PAF cannot afford it...in terms of cost, maintenance and sanctions...


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## Jana Assassin

Benign Persona said:


> what pressure? where was that pressure when russia was selling s 400 to china? where was that pressure when russian was selling su 35 to china? putin dont give a damn about anything what i hear from my russian friends, so it can happen.


Russia sold the s300 to china not the s 400 check ur facts


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## General General

Jana Assassin said:


> Russia sold the s300 to china not the s 400 check ur facts


Maybe it is _you _who should check 'ur' facts.
Russia sell S-400 missiles system only to China and refuses to sell it to India, why ?
Russia could start delivering S-400 missile defense systems to China by the end of 2016

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## CT-9914 "Snoop"

The JAS-39 is a good choice and according to at least one source the air force did consider procuring some before opting for the Block-52 viper. Anyone knows why they didn't take it ?
Personally I'd like to see the Rafale being inducted into the air force, it's about time we receive new French aircraft.


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## Taimur Khurram

Logical Pakistani said:


> The JAS-39 is a good choice and according to at least one source the air force did consider procuring some before opting for the Block-52 viper. Anyone knows why they didn't take it ?
> Personally I'd like to see the Rafale being inducted into the air force, it's about time we receive new French aircraft.



India wants them, so I doubt we can go for them anytime soon. Besides, those French seem like they are trying to give India the worst deal imaginable.

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## Benign Persona

Jana Assassin said:


> Russia sold the s300 to china not the s 400 check ur facts


will be great if u stop entertain PDF members with your wisdom or read a little before you counter somebody.


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## Muhammad Omar

Logical Pakistani said:


> The JAS-39 is a good choice and according to at least one source the air force did consider procuring some before opting for the Block-52 viper. Anyone knows why they didn't take it ?
> Personally I'd like to see the Rafale being inducted into the air force, it's about time we receive new French aircraft.



JF-17 is somewhat close to JAS-39... so PAF is not going for that

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## The Sandman

@Jana Assassin
Just relax alright it's none of your business first of all go and care about your rafale deal let us and our air force handle this i am sure they can arrange funds for any aircraft they want to tu tension na le aur rahi baat f16's ki jin chezon ka pata ni hota usme chup rehna chaye


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

The next fighter of PAF is going be a local construct. 

Let us visit the landscape please: India is buying weapons from all major international producers bar China, of course.

They also are holding the candy dangiling of future purchases of €100 billion. Now, their strategy is to isolate Pakistan diplomatically, economically and of course militaritly. This is to engineer an internal collapse. 

No one is going to sell major weapon systems to Pak when the Indians are buying from every side and tying them up in strategic agreements. Since, Pak has not much reserves to dangle at these weapon producers... their choice is obvious.

IMHO this is the best thing that happend to Pak in very long time. Crisis is opportunity. IMHO the Pak planner will sense it. By only acquiring used platforms in numbers and upgrading them... is giving them the strategic space to break free from dependence on others. Including China.

Apart from usal hot threats... essentially Indians have no strategic answer to Pak question. They can not start a war they know they will never win. Even if the madness pervails, who is much more to loose?

IMHO next PAF fighter will have more than 70% local content... this medium airframe will replace all F-16s and more. This on top of the local 'stealthis' fighter.

I don't know how to tag senior posters for their kind opinions. Can someone help here, please. Elderly!

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## denel

best is to evolve the jf-17; get a better engine, more composites - this is just the start. focus on local innovation and R&D vs buying. If there is a will there is a way; look at us, it did not take long for us to completely remake the mirage into Cheetah or evolve the impala. Just after '94 the political will for not to have a large standing force disappeared.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

You are quite right in everything you stated, dear sir. Also, do not forget Super Hind as well. Your two countries have history of collaboration. It will be mutually benefial to work on such projects. Joint industrial base of Pak & SA is greater than alone. Well, said, my friend.Don't know how to add your post to repond to it. Sorry.


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## PaklovesTurkiye

Sinopakfriend said:


> You are quite right in everything you stated, dear sir. Also, do not forget Super Hind as well. Your two countries have history of collaboration. It will be mutually benefial to work on such projects. Joint industrial base of Pak & SA is greater than alone. Well, said, my friend.Don't know how to add your post to repond to it. Sorry.



You can reply to anyone just see the reply button at bottom left of post u wanna reply.....hit it if you want to reply


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> You can reply to anyone just see the reply button at bottom left of post u wanna reply.....hit it if you want to reply



Many thanks for your kind help!

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## Wolf

Much like a customized desktop rather than branded desktop, we can customize our all fighter jets with best possible goodies available on market to make them lethal and it can be done to mirages, F-7 PGs etc if it costs less as a stop gap till JF 17 develops into something at par with gripen, J 10c etc.

I don't know why Pakistanis don't invest in university students. Bring the brilliant minds in universities under supervision of competent scientist of say Krl, awc, PAC, HMC etc. Assign them task, give them technical support, equipment etc, guidance, funds, salaries at their very own universities with a promise of stake in financial benefits and then encourage them to make things happen. You are going to get a lot achieved in no time. Believe me. Regards.

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## denel

Wolf said:


> Much like a customized desktop rather than branded desktop, we can customize our all fighter jets with best possible goodies available on market to make them lethal and it can be done to mirages, F-7 PGs etc if it costs less as a stop gap till JF 17 develops into something at par with gripen, J 10c etc.
> 
> I don't know why Pakistanis don't invest in university students. Bring the brilliant minds in universities under supervision of competent scientist of say Krl, awc, PAC, HMC etc. Assign them task, give them technical support, equipment etc, guidance, funds, salaries at their very own universities with a promise of stake in financial benefits and then encourage them to make things happen. You are going to get a lot achieved in no time. Believe me. Regards.


Absolutely well said. Again, i ask you to look at us. Even fuel in SA is synthetic - SASOL - when sanctions were in place, there was a danger our fuel supply would be compromised; SASOL was created in early 60s and tasked with converting coal to liquid fuels; if you come here, you will see every station fuel is a blend and a seperate station for pure synthetic.
R&D is an absolute must. We were pioneers and still are in many respects in radio communications - frequency hopping on hf was by us; on other side everyone never considered using it in tactical mode. Too many examples to give. Grad students were partnering with industrial research and everything had dual purpose - Toyota engines were used in Mambas - Casspir - unimog etc; it is the spirit of pioneership. It is a sad thing to see your country having good people who can succeed but roadblocks all the way.

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## aamirzs

Chinese bought the new Su-35 from Russia, which will help in development of J-11, we should wait for new version of J-11 in future.

And further improve on JF-17 with AESA radar in future as well.


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## Wolf

aamirzs said:


> Chinese bought the new Su-35 from Russia, which will help in development of J-11, we should wait for new version of J-11 in future.
> 
> And further improve on JF-17 with AESA radar in future as well.


We should stop waiting for others my friend. "Khudi" and "junoon". I agree with your last 2 lines.


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## aamirzs

Wolf said:


> We should stop waiting for others my friend. "Khudi" and "junoon". I agree with your last 2 lines.


Can't wait then brother J-11D with AESA radar is ready and some say it is better then Su-35.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Someone please correct me---I believe that the sale of the SU35 to china was cancelled.

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## Akasa

aamirzs said:


> Chinese bought the new Su-35 from Russia, which will help in development of J-11, we should wait for new version of J-11 in future.
> 
> And further improve on JF-17 with AESA radar in future as well.



The Su-35 isn't all that relevant. The Su-35 will unlikely offer anything that the J-11D does not already possess.


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

denel said:


> Absolutely well said. Again, i ask you to look at us. Even fuel in SA is synthetic - SASOL - when sanctions were in place, there was a danger our fuel supply would be compromised; SASOL was created in early 60s and tasked with converting coal to liquid fuels; if you come here, you will see every station fuel is a blend and a seperate station for pure synthetic.
> R&D is an absolute must. We were pioneers and still are in many respects in radio communications - frequency hopping on hf was by us; on other side everyone never considered using it in tactical mode. Too many examples to give. Grad students were partnering with industrial research and everything had dual purpose - Toyota engines were used in Mambas - Casspir - unimog etc; it is the spirit of pioneership. It is a sad thing to see your country having good people who can succeed but roadblocks all the way.



The history of poineering and making the best out of what you and some more, is ingrained into SA psyche. The strategic cooperation between SA & Pak will be benefitial to both nations. More drive is required from both sides. Not only in defence related projects though. Broader industrial / agro cooperation will be game changer for both in the regional context. If you recall both were breadbaskets of their respective continents. 

Policy makers need to the right thing here. All the best to both of you!

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## zeeshan shaani

Bla bla bla. 700 + replies and going out for what? All confusion and drama. Acha tym pass ho rha sb ka. It seems nothing is going to happen soon. All concentration should be on developing jf 17 atleast f16v configuration package at urgent basis.


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## araz

zeeshan shaani said:


> Bla bla bla. 700 + replies and going out for what? All confusion and drama. Acha tym pass ho rha sb ka. It seems nothing is going to happen soon. All concentration should be on developing jf 17 atleast f16v configuration package at urgent basis.


 Paisa kahan say ayega Mohtaram? Or are you going on a collection drive to support the PAF acquisition. 
A


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## SQ8

araz said:


> Paisa kahan say ayega Mohtaram? Or are you going on a collection drive to support the PAF acquisition.
> A


Jehez mein mile ga.

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## X-2.

Ins ha Allah...

May be Italy do some hayaa for us


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## zeeshan shaani

araz said:


> Paisa kahan say ayega Mohtaram? Or are you going on a collection drive to support the PAF acquisition.
> A


I know money is the main issue. U also know it very well. In fact all PDF members know very well. After we all know we have less money And we can not afford new platform then why are u all discussing a new high end 4.5 gen aircraft.so i request please close this thread. It is better to discuss after some official conformation.


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## SSG commandos

*Armed Forces*

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## Woz Ahmed

Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need such a huge defence budget at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?

Defending our borders is paramount, but are there better ways to do it ?

Britain and Germany bombed each other to hell, yet now their economies are so intertwined, same with Vietnam and USA

People are risking their lives to emigrate, suggests we have the balance wrong.

New shiny imported toys don't make us a great nation, a state that educates and supports its population does.

Did you know in 34 years our population will reach 300 million and rising, education and health services are the only real population control, there is a direct correlation.

Anyway, I doubt this post will make any difference, but everything has a knock on effect and I hope I have raised some awareness. 

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-buy-chinese-submarines.387619/page-23#ixzz4DqOGDUNM


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## Super Falcon

Agreed they talk too much


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## zeeshan shaani

Super Falcon said:


> Agreed they talk too much


Agreed for what?


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## aamirzs

We talk too much because we love Pakistan and want to see better in everything.

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## Super Falcon

zeeshan shaani said:


> Agreed for what?


They talk much on buying at the end nothing comes


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## zeeshan shaani

Super Falcon said:


> They talk much on buying at the end nothing comes


Yup that is why i asked to close the thread untill some official news comes. As we all know we have less resources so it is better to talk less on ruomers.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

If kind people would stop comparing themselves and their country to their eastern neighbour... you would be able to see your country in a totally different and perhaps true light. 

Do you have anything in common with them? Did you not have enormous impact on their culture and language? Their cousine?

You ruled them for 1000 years and them packed your bags and went back to your natural habitat. Think about it.

Your country is a quite capable regional power. From Central Aisa to entire ME. 

Why this obvious fact can not be seen?

Now the new aircraft is going to be your own design with collabratioin with your two reliable partners. 

Turks and Chinese. 

Give it five years to emerge as design process completes. More than 70% is going to be local. 

This will create jobs and industrial base. But most importantly this will add to your comprehensive national power. Industrial and diplomatic. 

Patience bears fruits and freedom. 

Buying from someone else even China will destroy your comprehensive national power.

Given your track record till now you have always managed to pull rabbits out of your mysterious hat as a state. 

This time around you are not starting from zero. Please, don't forget that. 

Your JF is 4+ in the making. Next logcial progress will be a medium semi stealth platform to replace your F16s. 

PAF is doing quite well, despite some apparent mistakes. They have been emotionally judged here on PDF. Change your paradigm. Is the lack of money not a blessing for you? If it forces you to build your own... ME conturies have spent trillions on weapons... can they build anything? Do they have any real power? Apart from money.

A fiveth generation (not to be compared with the US) is then no problem. 

This is all rational and logical progression. Patience. 

Your eastern neighbour doesn't have the capacity to launch a war against you. 

They cann't even execute a naval blockade. Brovado of Indian posters not withstanding. 

No offence is intended to Indians at all. Appologies if it is so percieved. 

Somehow your defence planners have pulled this one off. But don't just go on jubilation quite yet. 
First consolidate your comprehensive national power.

Build your own jets. Refuse anything even given free. 

For now PAF is doing quite clever thing to buy dirt cheap F16 and upgrading them with Turkish partners. 
This gives them ten years breathing space. Quite wise move, really.

Do not think in terms plane to plane ratios...think the totallity of your assets. 

After 15 years of war and destruction you are still standing and getting stronger...

Keep going forward. Build your own stuff even if it is made of plywood. From ships to plane to land based systems.

Never forget for a single moment that you are a very strong regional power. 
From Central Asia to ME. All you have to to do now is build.

One hopes that there never be a conflict in your region. A conflict that no one can win. A conflict that will be destructive for entire Asia. 

Just forget about your eastern neighbour as comparison. 

You ruled them and packed your bags and went home. Naturally they are not happy about it. And would like nothing more than exact a revenge. 

Build your own. Now for the first time you truly can.

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## MastanKhan

Woz Ahmed said:


> Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need such a huge defence budget at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?
> 
> Defending our borders is paramount, but are there better ways to do it ?
> 
> Britain and Germany bombed each other to hell, yet now their economies are so intertwined, same with Vietnam and USA
> 
> People are risking their lives to emigrate, suggests we have the balance wrong.
> 
> New shiny imported toys don't make us a great nation, a state that educates and supports its population does.
> 
> Did you know in 34 years our population will reach 300 million and rising, education and health services are the only real population control, there is a direct correlation.
> 
> Anyway, I doubt this post will make any difference, but everything has a knock on effect and I hope I have raised some awareness.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-buy-chinese-submarines.387619/page-23#ixzz4DqOGDUNM




Hi,

But only if one of those two nations was muslim---then we would see if any progress was made.

Both are christian nations and having shared monarchy---it is no big deal that they are together.

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## Tipu7

Woz Ahmed said:


> Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need such a huge defence budget at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?


Huge Budget?
Lowest in region. 27th largest in World for 6th largest Military.....
If you want Education, water, health, then extract budget from Orange Train, metro, youth competition & Luxury tours of our elite from our tax payer money.
Plus bring credible people to spend that money, other wise this whole spending in the name of health, education will end up in corruption .......


Woz Ahmed said:


> Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need such a huge defence budget at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?
> 
> Defending our borders is paramount, but are there better ways to do it ?
> 
> Britain and Germany bombed each other to hell, yet now their economies are so intertwined, same with Vietnam and USA
> 
> People are risking their lives to emigrate, suggests we have the balance wrong.
> 
> New shiny imported toys don't make us a great nation, a state that educates and supports its population does.
> 
> Did you know in 34 years our population will reach 300 million and rising, education and health services are the only real population control, there is a direct correlation.
> 
> Anyway, I doubt this post will make any difference, but everything has a knock on effect and I hope I have raised some awareness.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-buy-chinese-submarines.387619/page-23#ixzz4DqOGDUNM


You are just copy pasting one comment in many threads. You have been answered before in effective way in similar thread from which you are copying.....

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## Jana Assassin

mingle said:


> i think cost and infrastructure would be same for EF2000 and Su 35 FOR PAK.My idea is its Ef 2000 due to same plane ordered by Kuwait ,oman recently forget about KSA kind of common platform among .
> 
> 
> Cant wait to see these jets in Pak Colors while Modi Dhoti getting wet getting Slap from everwhere


Delusional guy who thinks pak can afford EF2000 wen they cant evn buy F-16s without subsidy...

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## WaLeEdK2

Jana Assassin said:


> Delusional guy who thinks pak can afford EF2000 wen they cant evn buy F-16s without subsidy...



We can... But it was concluded that it would not be worth it.


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## Jana Assassin

pakistanipower said:


> Because India isn't China India is always cry to the world that not sell their topnotch weapons to Pakistan and your logic is inaccurate Mr, in the front of Chinese military might Vietnam military is nothing


U will nevr get cutting edge Russian weaponry in the near future period.

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## Tipu7

I love the way how Indian statements changed from

You will never get any weapon sub system from Russia (RD93 contract)

To

You will never get any weapon system from Russia (Mi35 contract)

To

You will never get any cutting edge weapon from Russia (Su35 contract)





Jana Assassin said:


> U will nevr get cutting edge Russian weaponry in the near future period.

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## fitpOsitive

Jana Assassin said:


> U will nevr get cutting edge Russian weaponry in the near future period.


Why?


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## Wolf

Tipu7 said:


> Huge Budget?
> Lowest in region. 27th largest in World for 6th largest Military.....
> If you want Education, water, health, then extract budget from Orange Train, metro, youth competition & Luxury tours of our elite from our tax payer money.
> Plus bring credible people to spend that money, other wise this whole spending in the name of health, education will end up in corruption .......
> 
> You are just copy pasting one comment in many threads. You have been answered before in effective way in similar thread from which you are copying.....


don't worry, the person you responded to seems some filth ridden noonie toon. May belong to noon media cell with only objective of maligning armed forces with their pathetic intellect and goofy arguments.
Rs. 200 billion being spent on orange train. And these anti state noonies don't talk about diverting orange train money to education and health because steel and other related materials for orange train is coming from ittefaq foundary. Only one Habib construction company is being given all contracts in Lahore and these are front men of noonie brothers.

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## Basel

denel said:


> best is to evolve the jf-17; get a better engine, more composites - this is just the start. focus on local innovation and R&D vs buying. If there is a will there is a way; look at us, it did not take long for us to completely remake the mirage into Cheetah or evolve the impala. Just after '94 the political will for not to have a large standing force disappeared.



Best is to take Thunder to Super Thunder level like Hornet to Super Hornet and also start work on 5th gen with Turkey or China or with both in local project.

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## denel

Basel said:


> Best is to take Thunder to Super Thunder level like Hornet to Super Hornet and also start work on 5th gen with Turkey or China or with both in local project.


agreed - 200%. With jf-17 foundational design completely functional and in the field; it continues to evolve in many ways like kaizen; there are 2 full decades ahead to take it to completely new level.

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## Super Falcon

SU 35 is what we need for stop gap platform world is changing enemies are changing their tactics


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## Zain Malik

Basel said:


> Best is to take Thunder to Super Thunder level like Hornet to Super Hornet and also start work on 5th gen with Turkey or China or with both in local project.


Disagreed.... 5th gen platform will take about a decade.... .Its not easy to convert thunder to super thunder also it will take a log period of time since then we have nothing to counter Rafales and MKI....Su35 will must be inducted to PAFif they are serious for their native land's protection

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## barbarosa

We have need of su 35 now, not in 2030.


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## Basel

Zain Malik said:


> Disagreed.... 5th gen platform will take about a decade.... .Its not easy to convert thunder to super thunder also it will take a log period of time since then we have nothing to counter Rafales and MKI....Su35 will must be inducted to PAFif they are serious for their native land's protection



Even if you have money no jet will come before 2019 only F-16 are possible before that and they are sanction able jets as you know what have happened in every conflict with India, US had alway put sanctions on Pakistan making US systems nearly useless in war. If Super Thunder Project is Initiated then after 5 years we can have 1st Super Thunder inducted in PAF filling 4+++ gen Medium Multi Role Aircraft place, it can be done with help of China and Turkey combined, remember we have MoU for Stealthy JFT with China and Chinese companies already have many projects available if a country want to pay for it. China can rapidly develop Super Thunder while advance avionics can come from Turkey, South Africa, Italy.

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## Zain Malik

Basel said:


> Even if you have money no jet will come before 2019 only F-16 are possible before that and they are sanction able jets as you know what have happened in every conflict with India, US had alway put sanctions on Pakistan making US systems nearly useless in war. If Super Thunder Project is Initiated then after 5 years we can have 1st Super Thunder inducted in PAF filling 4+++ gen Medium Multi Role Aircraft place, it can be done with help of China and Turkey combined, remember we have MoU for Stealthy JFT with China and Chinese companies already have many projects available if a country want to pay for it. China can rapidly develop Super Thunder while advance avionics can come from Turkey, South Africa, Italy.


Well that depends upon our leaders what they choose both are good options..But what can we do....It relies completely on them.....we can just argue each other on this forum.

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## AsianLion

http://www.pakdef.org/forum/

As per Pakdef, I see Su35, EF, J11D, Gripen and J31 being the candidates.

Paf need new Fighter type for long range , high endurance strikes.







EF, SU35, MIG35 or Mirage 2009.


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## Hassan Guy

Now would be a good time......


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## I S I

Hassan Guy said:


> Now would be a good time......


Thanks for the heads up. Now buying a dozen new aircrafts from PAF museum shop.


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## R!CK

You guys think Mig 29/35 makes sense for PAF? Its a twin engine air superiority jet with decent ground/anti-ship roles. Could club a deal for the uprated RD-33 MK engines for Thunder too.

Good Day all!


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## Hassan Guy

R!CK said:


> You guys think Mig 29/35 makes sense for PAF? Its a twin engine air superiority jet with decent ground/anti-ship roles. Could club a deal for the uprated RD-33 MK engines for Thunder too.
> 
> Good Day all!


Wouldn't be a bad idea, they are also decently priced

They should consider the MIG-35, the Indians won't panic as much with this one as the Su-35 and Russia will be hoping for some countries to actually buy the Plane.

Though SU-35 is great option too

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## jupiter2007

AsianUnion said:


> http://www.pakdef.org/forum/
> 
> As per Pakdef, I see Su35, EF, J11D, Gripen and J31 being the candidates.
> 
> Paf need new Fighter type for long range , high endurance strikes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EF, SU35, MIG35 or Mirage 2009.



J-31 won't be available until 2023 unless Pakistan is secretly funding the project. 

Jf-17block 3 will pretty much have the same cabalities as Gripen, so i don't think Gripen would be an ideal plane for Pakistan.

I think the best option is Su-35x or J-11x/J-16x, these will be around 80 million each.

24 x 80 milions each + weapons = 2.5 to 3 billions.

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## wiseone2

Basel said:


> Even if you have money no jet will come before 2019 only F-16 are possible before that and they are sanction able jets as you know what have happened in every conflict with India, US had alway put sanctions on Pakistan making US systems nearly useless in war



Just curious is the supply of spares so tightly controlled that PAF cannot operate F-16s for a few weeks of combat ??


----------



## The SC

jupiter2007 said:


> J-31 won't be available until 2023 unless Pakistan is secretly funding the project.
> 
> Jf-17block 3 will pretty much have the same cabalities as Gripen, so i don't think Gripen would be an ideal plane for Pakistan.
> 
> I think the best option is Su-35x or J-11x/J-16x, these will be around 80 million each.
> 
> 24 x 80 milions each + weapons = 2.5 to 3 billions.


China got 24 SU-35 for 2 billion$..

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## MastanKhan

wiseone2 said:


> Just curious is the supply of spares so tightly controlled that PAF cannot operate F-16s for a few weeks of combat ??



Hi,

After 9/11---Paf went ahead and procured 5 years supply of parts for the F16's.

Otherwise yes----if the U S wants to---it can.

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## wiseone2

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> After 9/11---Paf went ahead and procured 5 years supply of parts for the F16's.
> 
> Otherwise yes----if the U S wants to---it can.



I do not understand the gripe against USA

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## war&peace

The SC said:


> China got 24 SU-35 for 2 billion$..


That means 83.33 millions / AC for Su-35 and now compare this with 96 million / AC by USA for F16 blk-60


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## MastanKhan

wiseone2 said:


> I do not understand the gripe against USA



Hi,

The U S offered the F16's under the special program that the funds will be used to pay and pakistan will only pay a small amount.

Pakistan never initiated that part of it being paid out the american funds---the U S offered it---. Then thru political turmoil---it got switched over to 95 mil dollars an aircraft---and then pakistan got lambasted for it.

Well---a BLK 52 is not worth 95 mil dollars a piece even if equipped with aesa HMD and using aim 120 C7--HMD and aim9x.

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## wiseone2

war&peace said:


> That means 83.33 millions / AC for Su-35 and now compare this with 96 million / AC by USA for F16 blk-60



there is a lot more to contracts - whether they are weapons, spares, training and maintainence clauses included

A lot of Pakistani fanboys are going to learn soon that the Su-35 ain't cheap



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The U S offered the F16's under the special program that the funds will be used to pay and pakistan will only pay a small amount.
> 
> Pakistan never initiated that part of it being paid out the american funds---the U S offered it---. Then thru political turmoil---it got switched over to 95 mil dollars an aircraft---and then pakistan got lambasted for it.
> 
> Well---a BLK 52 is not worth 95 mil dollars a piece even if equipped with aesa HMD and using aim 120 C7--HMD and aim9x.



it seems pretty excessive. but it is cheap compared to other choices around. IAF is forking $200 million per Rafale which is outrageous


----------



## The SC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Someone please correct me---I believe that the sale of the SU35 to china was cancelled.


24 were bought and delivered just lately..



Woz Ahmed said:


> Am sure I will be shot down for this, but do we need such a huge defence budget at the cost of investing in our people with health, education and water?
> 
> Defending our borders is paramount, but are there better ways to do it ?
> 
> Britain and Germany bombed each other to hell, yet now their economies are so intertwined, same with Vietnam and USA
> 
> People are risking their lives to emigrate, suggests we have the balance wrong.
> 
> New shiny imported toys don't make us a great nation, a state that educates and supports its population does.
> 
> Did you know in 34 years our population will reach 300 million and rising, education and health services are the only real population control, there is a direct correlation.
> 
> Anyway, I doubt this post will make any difference, but everything has a knock on effect and I hope I have raised some awareness.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-buy-chinese-submarines.387619/page-23#ixzz4DqOGDUNM


While education, health and social services are paramount to any nation's advancement, defense is also extreemely important; let's take the example of WW2 you talked about, and bear in mind that Europe and Japan would have been the worst off today if it was not from the US Marshall plan to rebuild them completely from almost 0(from the ground up).
And what is the use of highly brilliant minds if a nation can not defend them? they'll end up like the German scientists working and advancing the other side, and in the case of Pakistan, Arabs or Muslims in general, don't even think of something like the Marshall plan to save your souls..



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The U S offered the F16's under the special program that the funds will be used to pay and pakistan will only pay a small amount.
> 
> Pakistan never initiated that part of it being paid out the american funds---the U S offered it---. Then thru political turmoil---it got switched over to 95 mil dollars an aircraft---and then pakistan got lambasted for it.
> 
> Well---a BLK 52 is not worth 95 mil dollars a piece even if equipped with aesa HMD and using aim 120 C7--HMD and aim9x.


And PAF was right, for almost a billion $ Pakistan can buy 12 SU-35, since China paid around 2 billion$ for 24..



war&peace said:


> That means 83.33 millions / AC for Su-35 and now compare this with 96 million / AC by USA for F16 blk-60


Yes 83 million$ fo SU-35 with weapons , support and probably much more, since the base price according to Wikipedia is less than 50 million$ per plane for the SU-35, so there must be a whole lot of goodies coming with it for an additional 25 million $..
It doesn't compare to the F-16 block 52 that was proposed, it didn't even had AESA or any upgrade like Viper or so..and much more expansive, while the SU-35 is in par with the F-15 air superiority fighter..

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## jupiter2007

Any new plateform purchase (Su35/J16x/Typhoon) is going to be for long term.


----------



## war&peace

The SC said:


> Yes *# million fo SU-35 with weapons , support and probably much more, since the base price according to Wikipedia is less than 50 million$ per plane for the SU-35, so there must be a whole lot of goodies coming with it for an additional 25 million $..
> It doesn't compare to the F-16 block 52 that was proposed, it didn't even had AESA or any upgrade like Viper or so..and much more expansive, while the SU-35 is in par with the F-15 air superiority fighter..


That is why Pakistan should strike a deal with Russia...Su35 is a great airplane but there is a pro-West lobby in Pakistan that wants to keep Pakistan enslaved by the West.

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## wiseone2

war&peace said:


> That is why Pakistan should strike a deal with Russia...Su35 is a great airplane but there is a pro-West lobby in Pakistan that wants to keep Pakistan enslaved by the West.



For $1.7 billion budget there is only so much aircraft you can maintain. unless you want to increase your budget by a large amount Russian aircraft won't work out


----------



## C130

war&peace said:


> That is why Pakistan should strike a deal with Russia...Su35 is a great airplane but there is a pro-West lobby in Pakistan that wants to keep Pakistan enslaved by the West.




buy 12 Su-35 and at any given time only 4 will be combat ready that's the truth , and let's not forget that India has 200 Su-30MKI and they are being upgraded to match the Su-35.


Pakistan is pretty much screwed when trying to level the playing field with India

only way I see Pakistan even getting close to matching India is if China does what the U.S does for Israel give a huge amount of military aid.


3 to 5 billion a year would allow Pakistan to buy the latest Chinese military planes.

if the J-31 is good as the Chinese make it out to be, then buying 36 a year for 5 years would level the playing field.

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## AsianLion

The SC said:


> China got 24 SU-35 for 2 billion$..




Is that $2 billion....only per unit cost of 24 Sukois...? can u break down the details???


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## Joe Shearer

C130 said:


> buy 12 Su-35 and at any given time only 4 will be combat ready that's the truth , and let's not forget that India has 200 Su-30MKI and they are being upgraded to match the Su-35.
> 
> 
> Pakistan is pretty much screwed when trying to level the playing field with India
> 
> only way I see Pakistan even getting close to matching India is if China does what the U.S does for Israel give a huge amount of military aid.
> 
> 
> 3 to 5 billion a year would allow Pakistan to buy the latest Chinese military planes.
> 
> if the J-31 is good as the Chinese make it out to be, then buying 36 a year for 5 years would level the playing field.



It will never level the playing field, because the Chinese themselves are faced with a debt mountain, excessive investment in infrastructure which will not be saturated in decades, and ecological disaster. Pakistan has already compromised on its aircraft purchase programme and its armoured programme. 

Mene mene tekel upharsin.



wiseone2 said:


> Just curious is the supply of spares so tightly controlled that PAF cannot operate F-16s for a few weeks of combat ??



More or less. Give or take ten days.


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## jupiter2007

wiseone2 said:


> For $1.7 billion budget there is only so much aircraft you can maintain. unless you want to increase your budget by a large amount Russian aircraft won't work out



Don't worry about the money, our government has stolen over 5 billons in last 3 years. If we need money, we will sell jati umra and Bilawal house to buy these planes.

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## war&peace

C130 said:


> buy 12 Su-35 and at any given time only 4 will be combat ready that's the truth , and let's not forget that India has 200 Su-30MKI and they are being upgraded to match the Su-35.
> 
> 
> Pakistan is pretty much screwed when trying to level the playing field with India
> 
> only way I see Pakistan even getting close to matching India is if China does what the U.S does for Israel give a huge amount of military aid.
> 
> 
> 3 to 5 billion a year would allow Pakistan to buy the latest Chinese military planes.
> 
> if the J-31 is good as the Chinese make it out to be, then buying 36 a year for 5 years would level the playing field.


OMG....too much exaggeration....
DO NOT compare PAF's professionalism with IAF....just give them (IAF) F-16s and you will see that they will have the same issues with it as they have with Su30s.
Furthermore if both have same machines, then the man-behind the machine decides the outcome. so if you are saying SU30 mki upgraded = SU35 (which i highly doubt since airframes are different but just for the sake of argument) PAF will have both better availability and readiness. Furthermore, 5 billions a year means 50 Su35s or similar and for 5 years means 250 (SU35s + 5th gen A/C).
I'm sure once infrastructure is in place for CPEC and trade starts, setting 10 USB for PAF won't be a big problem and including Russia into CPEC can bring more goodies that may surprise everyone.

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## wiseone2

jupiter2007 said:


> Don't worry about the money, our government has stolen over 5 billons in last 3 years. If we need money, we will sell jati umra and Bilawal house to buy these planes.


no one is stopping you


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## Joe Shearer

war&peace said:


> OMG....too much exaggeration....
> DO NOT compare PAF's professionalism with IAF....just give them (IAF) F-16s and you will see that they will have the same issues with it as they have with Su30s.
> Furthermore if both have same machines, then the man-behind the machine decides the outcome. so if you are saying SU30 mki upgraded = SU35 (which i highly doubt since airframes are different but just for the sake of argument) PAF will have both better availability and readiness. Furthermore, 5 billions a year means 50 Su35s or similar and for 5 years means 250 (SU35s + 5th gen A/C).
> I'm sure once infrastructure is in place for CPEC and trade starts, setting 10 USB for PAF won't be a big problem and including Russia into CPEC can bring more goodies that may surprise everyone.



Before the 1965 war, when plans were being made, a Pakistani Major General was addressing his planners. When you make your plans, remember, he said, that one Pakistani soldier equals seven Indians. The Chief of Staff, General Musa, was present in the room and could not take it any more. He strode up, shouldered the Major General aside and said, Ten, not seven, ten.

*plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose*

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## SQ8

Joe Shearer said:


> Before the 1965 war, when plans were being made, a Pakistani Major General was addressing his planners. When you make your plans, remember, he said, that one Pakistani soldier equals seven Indians. The Chief of Staff, General Musa, was present in the room and could not take it any more. He strode up, shouldered the Major General aside and said, Ten, not seven, ten.
> 
> *plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose*


This being the toadies assigned by Ayub?

More candid history does give better credit to Pakistani troops since they were fighting for survival, the Indians were fighting for a peg; the valor was always to dip in the side fighting to save their homeland.

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## Joe Shearer

Oscar said:


> This being the toadies assigned by Ayub?
> 
> More candid history does give better credit to Pakistani troops since they were fighting for survival, the Indians were fighting for a peg; the valor was always to dip in the side fighting to save their homeland.



These were the toadies. It is sad to see the same sense of superiority creeping into the mindsets of today's generation.

When you say fighting for survival, doesn't that beg the question, why did they start a fight that they couldn't finish? Why the nine commando segments into Kashmir? Why the attack across the Jammu Tawi? Why the pre-emptive air strikes? Were those the actions of an army or an air force fighting for survival? 

What these actions provoked may have led to a fight for survival. My simple question: why the provocation? And a stupid, naive question: why does this provocation continue? Do these people actually like fighting for survival?

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## MastanKhan

Joe Shearer said:


> Before the 1965 war, when plans were being made, a Pakistani Major General was addressing his planners. When you make your plans, remember, he said, that one Pakistani soldier equals seven Indians. The Chief of Staff, General Musa, was present in the room and could not take it any more. He strode up, shouldered the Major General aside and said, Ten, not seven, ten.
> 
> *plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose*



Hi,

Joe---what is wrong with that---. It has been done hundreds of time over thousands of years of war by leaders & generals for pumping up their soldiers who are to go out to fight a much larger enemy.

What do you think the commander at Thermopyle told his 300 soldiers fighting against 7000 persians----!

You talking like this is the first time in history those words were uttered.

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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Joe---what is wrong with that---. It has been done hundreds of time over thousands of years of war by leaders & generals for pumping up their soldiers who are to go out to fight a much larger enemy.
> 
> What do you think the commander at Thermopyle told his 300 soldiers fighting against 7000 persians----!
> 
> You talking like this is the first time in history those words were uttered.


But in this case, It was not the soldiers being pumped up.

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## MastanKhan

Joe Shearer said:


> a why does this provocation continue? Do these people actually like fighting for survival?



Sir,

There is no continuation of provocation since 2002----. 

But I think that it should change---starting with the ouster of Nawaz Sharif---.



RAMPAGE said:


> But in this case, It was not the soldiers being pumped up.



Hi,

So what the fck is the big deal---have you never attended a corporate meeting where managers and executives get pumped up by the superiors and talk about the opponent companies as if they are mongrels---.

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## Joe Shearer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Joe---what is wrong with that---. It has been done hundreds of time over thousands of years of war by leaders & generals for pumping up their soldiers who are to go out to fight a much larger enemy.
> 
> What do you think the commander at Thermopyle told his 300 soldiers fighting against 7000 persians----!
> 
> You talking like this is the first time in history those words were uttered.



He told them, as far as the records go, to die like Spartans. He never held out any illusions about their beating the horde in front.

There was a similar incident at Saragarhi. At no stage did the Sikhs convey that they thought that they were equal to a multiple of the swarming Afghans outside. They fought for honour and died where they stood. The last man to die was the signaller, whose last signal was for permission to shut down his heliograph and take up his rifle. His body was found afterwards with multiple injuries. 

What I responded to stank of that same ethno-religious superiority. If anyone in this day and age believes in that as a reality, as the poster seems to have done, I can only respond with amused astonishment.

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## Athen

SSG commandos said:


> *Armed Forces*


great video but seriously very bad music does not sync with video!!


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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> There is no continuation of provocation since 2002----.
> 
> But I think that it should change---starting with the ouster of Nawaz Sharif---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> So what the fck is the big deal---have you never attended a corporate meeting where managers and executives get pumped up by the superiors and talk about the opponent companies as if they are mongrels---.


Sir, 

You are a fool. That much is evident from your recent comments and your signature. There is no putting it lightly.

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## Joe Shearer

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> There is no continuation of provocation since 2002----.
> 
> But I think that it should change---starting with the ouster of Nawaz Sharif---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> So what the fck is the big deal---have you never attended a corporate meeting where managers and executives get pumped up by the superiors and talk about the opponent companies as if they are mongrels---.



Chief,

I say this as a genuine friend of Pakistan, but as a friend who is losing hope, every day: the perspective is horribly different from where I stand. The four auxiliary divisions of the Pakistan Army, 

the Hizb ul Mujahideen, 
the Jaish e Mohammed, 
the Harkat e Mujahideen and
the Lashkar e Taiba
flourished throughout this period. Attacks continued, in enervated form, throughout this period, without let-up. 

What did you have in mind when you said that there was no continuation of provocation after 2002? We did not see any break.

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## C130

war&peace said:


> OMG....too much exaggeration....
> DO NOT compare PAF's professionalism with IAF....just give them (IAF) F-16s and you will see that they will have the same issues with it as they have with Su30s.
> Furthermore if both have same machines, then the man-behind the machine decides the outcome. so if you are saying SU30 mki upgraded = SU35 (which i highly doubt since airframes are different but just for the sake of argument) PAF will have both better availability and readiness. Furthermore, 5 billions a year means 50 Su35s or similar and for 5 years means 250 (SU35s + 5th gen A/C).
> I'm sure once infrastructure is in place for CPEC and trade starts, setting 10 USB for PAF won't be a big problem and including Russia into CPEC can bring more goodies that may surprise everyone.




I don't doubt Pakistan ability to operate and maintain the Su-35, but I do doubt Russia ability to supply parts for these Su-35 in a timely manner and for a fair price.


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## RAMPAGE

Joe Shearer said:


> Chief,
> 
> I say this as a genuine friend of Pakistan, but as a friend who is losing hope, every day: the perspective is horribly different from where I stand. The four auxiliary divisions of the Pakistan Army,
> 
> the Hizb ul Mujahideen,
> the Jaish e Mohammed,
> the Harkat e Mujahideen and
> the Lashkar e Taiba
> flourished throughout this period. Attacks continued, in enervated form, throughout this period, without let-up.
> 
> *What did you have in mind when you said that there was no continuation of provocation after 2002*? We did not see any break.


Nothing at all and that's the point. I will ask you and the senior members to not entertain him any further. His whimsical and anarchist notions seem to have a bad effect on our more impressionable members.

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## YeBeWarned

Joe Shearer said:


> Chief,
> 
> I say this as a genuine friend of Pakistan, but as a friend who is losing hope, every day: the perspective is horribly different from where I stand. The four auxiliary divisions of the Pakistan Army,
> 
> the Hizb ul Mujahideen,
> the Jaish e Mohammed,
> the Harkat e Mujahideen and
> the Lashkar e Taiba
> flourished throughout this period. Attacks continued, in enervated form, throughout this period, without let-up.
> 
> What did you have in mind when you said that there was no continuation of provocation after 2002? We did not see any break.



Ok so first , i know you did not refer this Post to me ... but i want to put my input here , that look all those Organizations are headache for not just India but Pakistan as well , and its not just Pakistan Specific but US , USSR has been doing this when both Pakistan and India are teenagers ..

now for the Continuation of the Attacks , if you see in just in Prospectus of that few fidayeen Attack Indians cities than yeah, but if you Directly blaming the Pakistan Army or State than there is a Difference , cause what India claim is a Allegation not a Proven FACT ..

Both countries is Actively Involved in this Proxy War , we can't just single out Pakistan .. after all we have Kulbhoshan Yadev for a reason .
---------

and the Theory of 1 Muslim = 10 Kaffir , for religious sake if i agree to this but i doubt there is a Single Muslim in whole of Pakistan who is Following the Islam as it was Described by the Prophet Himself , or his Companions lived .. we are some " Kaam Chalao Muslims " whatever suites us , we follow whatever does not , we just put it aside by Sayings that is between us and Allah 



C130 said:


> I don't doubt Pakistan ability to operate and maintain the Su-35, but I do doubt Russia ability to supply parts for these Su-35 in a timely manner and for a fair price.



We can get it from China ... Since they recently Bought 24 Su-35's and very soon they will be producing Spare parts in home .. so i don't think Spare Parts will be a problem , and even if Indians Push Russian to that Extent , than i guess backdoor is always a way for such things .. Remember we got some spare Parts from Israel haha i means Seriously ISRAEL


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## Joe Shearer

Starlord said:


> Ok so first , i know you did not refer this Post to me ... but i want to put my input here , that look all those Organizations are headache for not just India but Pakistan as well , and its not just Pakistan Specific but US , USSR has been doing this when both Pakistan and India are teenagers ..
> 
> now for the Continuation of the Attacks , if you see in just in Prospectus of that few fidayeen Attack Indians cities than yeah, but if you Directly blaming the Pakistan Army or State than there is a Difference , cause what India claim is a Allegation not a Proven FACT ..
> 
> Both countries is Actively Involved in this Proxy War , we can't just single out Pakistan .. after all we have Kulbhoshan Yadev for a reason



Excellent post. Read my response here as a "Yes, but.......

First, about directly blaming the Pakistan Army or the Pakistan State. No, no direct blame, but look at this:


_Until Pakistan became a key ally in the War on Terrorism, the US Secretary of State included Pakistan on the 1993 list of countries which repeatedly provide support for acts of international terrorism. In fact, many consider that Pakistan has been playing both sides in the fight against terror, on the one hand, pretending to help curtail terrorist activities while on the other, stoking it. Even the noted Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid has accused Pakistan's ISI of providing help to the Taliban, a statement echoed by many, including author Ted Galen Carpenter, who states that Pakistan has "assisted rebel forces in Kashmir even though those groups have committed terrorist acts against civilians"._
_According to the author Daniel Byman, "Pakistan is probably today's most active sponsor of terrorism."writing in an article published by The Australian stated, "following the terror massacres in Mumbai, Pakistan may now be the single biggest state sponsor of terrorism, beyond even Iran, yet it has never been listed by the US State Department as a state sponsor of terrorism"._
_Former Pakistan Ruler Pervez Musharraf has conceded that his forces trained militant groups to fight India in Indian-administered Kashmir. He confessed that the government ″turned a blind eye″ because it wanted to force India to enter negotiations besides raising the issue internationally. He also said Pakistani spies in the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate (ISI) cultivated the Taliban after 2001 because Karzai’s government was dominated by non-Pashtuns, the country’s largest ethnic group, and officials who were thought to favour India._

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## MastanKhan

Joe Shearer said:


> Chief,
> 
> I say this as a genuine friend of Pakistan, but as a friend who is losing hope, every day: the perspective is horribly different from where I stand. The four auxiliary divisions of the Pakistan Army,
> 
> the Hizb ul Mujahideen,
> the Jaish e Mohammed,
> the Harkat e Mujahideen and
> the Lashkar e Taiba
> flourished throughout this period. Attacks continued, in enervated form, throughout this period, without let-up.
> 
> What did you have in mind when you said that there was no continuation of provocation after 2002? We did not see any break.




Sir,

I would rather you say it like an enemy of pakistan---then at least we have a clear vision.



Joe Shearer said:


> He told them, as far as the records go, to die like Spartans. He never held out any illusions about their beating the horde in front.
> 
> There was a similar incident at Saragarhi. At no stage did the Sikhs convey that they thought that they were equal to a multiple of the swarming Afghans outside. They fought for honour and died where they stood. The last man to die was the signaller, whose last signal was for permission to shut down his heliograph and take up his rifle. His body was found afterwards with multiple injuries.
> 
> What I responded to stank of that same ethno-religious superiority. If anyone in this day and age believes in that as a reality, as the poster seems to have done, I can only respond with amused astonishment.




Sir,

Okay---so they did---what is the big deal about it---.

Reality or no reality---at times of war strange things happen---God less men start to worship God--and God fearing men lose hope in their religion---.

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## war&peace

RAMPAGE said:


> Sir,
> 
> *You are a fool. That much is evident from your recent comments and your signature. There is no putting it lightly.*


Were you standing in front of a mirror when you uttered those words!! Sir?

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## Indus Falcon

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> I would rather you say it like an enemy of pakistan---then at least we have a clear vision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Okay---so they did---what is the big deal about it---.
> 
> Reality or no reality---at times of war strange things happen---God less men start to worship God--and God fearing men lose hope in their religion---.




Ignore him, his jingoism blinds him as usual. If he had an ounce of shame he would not been showing his face here, after the surgical strike fiasco and the blatant violation of human rights, not just in Kashmir but across India. 

What Pakistan did (which is up for debate), did outside it's borders, unlike India who terrorizes it's own citizens.

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## war&peace

@MastanKhan

Sir,
Actually some people are focussing too much on the numbers in the war but I think they have spent more time on typing comments on pdf than reading books perhaps suffering from dementia and purposelessness in life. Can any one of them tell us which famous war was fought between to exactly same in number armies?
Can they throw some light on what were the number for each army in the conflict between Muhammad Bin Qassim and Raja Dahir? Tariq Bin Ziyad and the Spanish, Babur and Ibrahim Lodhi, Ahmed Shah Abdali and Marhattas, Napolean Bonaparte and the English,.....

What I found through even by skimming the history of war the two-totally matched sides in numbers is rather exception than the rule...But a lot of wars were won by numerically much inferior armies and history salutes them.

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## barbarosa

Indus Falcon said:


> Ignore him, his jingoism blinds him as usual. If he had an ounce of shame he would not been showing his face here, after the surgical strike fiasco and the blatant violation of human rights, not just in Kashmir but across India.
> 
> What Pakistan did (which is up for debate), did outside it's borders, unlike India who terrorizes it's own citizens.


Yes sir! we declare our religious people as a terrorist and killed them, India terrorize it's citizen and elected them as PM etc etc.

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## Indus Falcon

barbarosa said:


> Yes sir! we declare our religious people as a terrorist and killed them, India terrorize it's citizen and elected them as PM etc etc.


Slight Correction: Not religious people, clueless fanatics.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Joe---what is wrong with that---. It has been done hundreds of time over thousands of years of war by leaders & generals for pumping up their soldiers who are to go out to fight a much larger enemy.
> 
> What do you think the commander at Thermopyle told his 300 soldiers fighting against 7000 persians----!
> 
> You talking like this is the first time in history those words were uttered.


It's the first time he realized, sometimes "those words" can work! Chawinda is still testament to it.

Lastly when you deal with people like him, who love to eschew history, keep in mind:

“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.” 
― George Orwell

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## war&peace

Indus Falcon said:


> Slight Correction: Not religious people, clueless fanatics.
> 
> 
> It's the first time he realized, sometimes "those words" can work! Chawinda is still testament to it.
> 
> Lastly when you deal with people like him, who love to eschew history, keep in mind:
> 
> “The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”
> ― George Orwell


Sir welcome back  ...I have seen you after a long time

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## MastanKhan

war&peace said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> Sir,
> Actually some people are focussing too much on the numbers in the war but I think they have spent more time on typing comments on pdf than reading books perhaps suffering from dementia and purposelessness in life. Can any one of them tell us which famous war was fought between to exactly same in number armies?
> Can they throw some light on what were the number for each army in the conflict between Muhammad Bin Qassim and Raja Dahir? Tariq Bin Ziyad and the Spanish, Babur and Ibrahim Lodhi, Ahmed Shah Abdali and Marhattas, Napolean Bonaparte and the English,.....
> 
> What I found through even by skimming the history of war the two-totally matched sides in numbers is rather exception than the rule...But a lot of wars were won by numerically much inferior armies and history salutes them.



Hi,

Most of the great warriors of history had smaller armies---but had the courage--belief---tenacity and understanding of the battle field.

The british conquered india with a handful of men---and so did every other muslim warrior king that came in.

The roman legions where ever they went to conquer---they fought with the same mindset---1 against 5---1 against 10---.

It is a part of the bravado of a fighting force---it is also a part of the self-belief that you are superior to 10 enemy soldiers---otherwise---when you came face to face with an enemy 10 times your size---without that belief---there would be diarrhea running down the legs.

The mongols stood in front of many a large armies just with one thought one thought in mind---do I have enough arrows in my quiver to kill all the enemy.

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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most of the great warriors of history had smaller armies---but had the courage--belief---tenacity and understanding of the battle field.
> 
> The british conquered india with a handful of men---and so did every other muslim warrior king that came in.
> 
> The roman legions where ever they went to conquer---they fought with the same mindset---1 against 5---1 against 10---.
> 
> It is a part of the bravado of a fighting force---it is also a part of the self-belief that you are superior to 10 enemy soldiers---otherwise---when you came face to face with an enemy 10 times your size---without that belief---there would be diarrhea running down the legs.
> 
> The mongols stood in front of many a large armies just with one thought one thought in mind---do I have enough arrows in my quiver to kill all the enemy.


Yes we both are on the same page and history back our conclusion without any doubts but I wonder what kind of an idiot will deny the history?

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## Indus Falcon

war&peace said:


> Yes we both are on the same page and history back our conclusion without any doubts but I wonder what kind of an idiot will deny the history?



One with this agenda:

“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.” 
― George Orwell

Go through his posts, that is all he does, eschew, twist, deform facts, to suit his own twisted agenda.

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## wiseone2

war&peace said:


> OMG....too much exaggeration....
> DO NOT compare PAF's professionalism with IAF....just give them (IAF) F-16s and you will see that they will have the same issues with it as they have with Su30s.
> Furthermore if both have same machines, then the man-behind the machine decides the outcome. so if you are saying SU30 mki upgraded = SU35 (which i highly doubt since airframes are different but just for the sake of argument) PAF will have both better availability and readiness. Furthermore, 5 billions a year means 50 Su35s or similar and for 5 years means 250 (SU35s + 5th gen A/C).
> I'm sure once infrastructure is in place for CPEC and trade starts, setting 10 USB for PAF won't be a big problem and including Russia into CPEC can bring more goodies that may surprise everyone.



IAF is as professional a body as the PAF

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## war&peace

Indus Falcon said:


> One with this agenda:
> 
> “The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”
> ― George Orwell
> 
> Go through his posts, that is all he does, eschew, twist, deform facts, to suit his own twisted agenda.


And these kind of people use "we are friend of your nation / country" too often and fool the gullible sheeples

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## Manidabest

Joe Shearer said:


> Excellent post. Read my response here as a "Yes, but.......
> 
> First, about directly blaming the Pakistan Army or the Pakistan State. No, no direct blame, but look at this:
> 
> 
> _Until Pakistan became a key ally in the War on Terrorism, the US Secretary of State included Pakistan on the 1993 list of countries which repeatedly provide support for acts of international terrorism. In fact, many consider that Pakistan has been playing both sides in the fight against terror, on the one hand, pretending to help curtail terrorist activities while on the other, stoking it. Even the noted Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid has accused Pakistan's ISI of providing help to the Taliban, a statement echoed by many, including author Ted Galen Carpenter, who states that Pakistan has "assisted rebel forces in Kashmir even though those groups have committed terrorist acts against civilians"._
> _According to the author Daniel Byman, "Pakistan is probably today's most active sponsor of terrorism."writing in an article published by The Australian stated, "following the terror massacres in Mumbai, Pakistan may now be the single biggest state sponsor of terrorism, beyond even Iran, yet it has never been listed by the US State Department as a state sponsor of terrorism"._
> _Former Pakistan Ruler Pervez Musharraf has conceded that his forces trained militant groups to fight India in Indian-administered Kashmir. He confessed that the government ″turned a blind eye″ because it wanted to force India to enter negotiations besides raising the issue internationally. He also said Pakistani spies in the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate (ISI) cultivated the Taliban after 2001 because Karzai’s government was dominated by non-Pashtuns, the country’s largest ethnic group, and officials who were thought to favour India._



US changes its policy whenever it suits it.....once Saddam Hussain was their major ally and supplied chemical weapons against Iran and then later the world saw how they initiated the Iraq war on false claims and then killed Saddam but before that he was seen as a biggest supporter of terrorism but in actual he was not..

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## RAMPAGE

Indus Falcon said:


> Go through his posts, that is all he does, eschew, twist, deform facts, to suit his own twisted agenda.


Can you come up with one such example?


----------



## wiseone2

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Joe---what is wrong with that---. It has been done hundreds of time over thousands of years of war by leaders & generals for pumping up their soldiers who are to go out to fight a much larger enemy.
> 
> What do you think the commander at Thermopyle told his 300 soldiers fighting against 7000 persians----!
> 
> You talking like this is the first time in history those words were uttered.



advances in technology have nullified the impact of Thermopyle. In the modern era a well prepared force of 7000 soldiers will slaughter an army of 300 soldiers.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most of the great warriors of history had smaller armies---but had the courage--belief---tenacity and understanding of the battle field.
> 
> The british conquered india with a handful of men---and so did every other muslim warrior king that came in.
> 
> The roman legions where ever they went to conquer---they fought with the same mindset---1 against 5---1 against 10---.
> 
> It is a part of the bravado of a fighting force---it is also a part of the self-belief that you are superior to 10 enemy soldiers---otherwise---when you came face to face with an enemy 10 times your size---without that belief---there would be diarrhea running down the legs.
> 
> The mongols stood in front of many a large armies just with one thought one thought in mind---do I have enough arrows in my quiver to kill all the enemy.



those days are over ...
unless you have technological superiority over the Indian army it is not going to work

If the 1965 war had continued for three months the pakistani army would have collapsed because the pakistani state could not support them materially


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## Indus Falcon

wiseone2 said:


> advances in technology have nullified the impact of Thermopyle. I*n the modern era a well prepared force of 7000 soldiers will slaughter an army of 300 soldiers.*
> 
> 
> 
> those days are over ...
> unless you have technological superiority over the Indian army it is not going to work
> 
> If the 1965 war had continued for three months the pakistani army would have collapsed because the pakistani state could not support them materially



Captain Obvious!!! Indian logic at work as usual. Thanks!

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## fatman17

mingle said:


> According to Haris Khan PDF PAF is buying 40 HighEnd Aircrafts very soon they not chines or Americans .PAF looking to used F16 via Jorden but these 40 r New and would be a third type .No J20 or J31 at this moment.



highly unlikely as funds not available. most of PAF budget allocated to JFT program.

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## wiseone2

Indus Falcon said:


> Indian logic at work as usual. Thanks!



if two sides have equal level of technology and military expertise the outcome is skewed in favor of the party who can wage a longer war

Ethiopia beat Eritea - two opponents of similar strength but of questionable military capacity. Ethiopia had a 10:1 numerical edge

Iraq needed chemical weapons to hold off opponent three times larger in Iran despite having technological superiority

Israel beat the Arabs. But the Israelis had a huge edge in technology and fighting spirit

Historically Pakistan has never had overwhelming technological edge over India. Maybe slightly better sub-systems. Right now Pakistan is in danger of falling behind badly.

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## war&peace

wiseone2 said:


> If the 1965 war had continued for three months the pakistani army would have collapsed because the pakistani state could not support them materially


Really then why did India run to her Daddy USSR for Tashkent accord...why did you not continue the war for another three months?

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## wiseone2

war&peace said:


> Really then why did India run to her Daddy USSR for Tashkent accord...why did you not continue the war for another three months?



India had no interest in fighting pakistan let alone crushing it. Indian bureaucracy was still evolving with respect to Pakistan on matters of security. Why would your generals start a war and agree to a ceasefire ??


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## barbarosa

No arguments with ignorant people. Hazrat ALI ( Raziallah anho )

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## Indus Falcon

wiseone2 said:


> if two sides have equal level of technology and military expertise the outcome is skewed in favor of the party who can wage a longer war
> 
> Ethiopia beat Eritea - two opponents of similar strength but of questionable military capacity. Ethiopia had a 10:1 numerical edge
> 
> Iraq needed chemical weapons to hold off opponent three times larger in Iran despite having technological superiority
> 
> Israel beat the Arabs. But the Israelis had a huge edge in technology and fighting spirit
> 
> Historically Pakistan has never had overwhelming technological edge over India. Maybe slightly better sub-systems. Right now Pakistan is in danger of falling behind badly.



Dear Clueless, don't worry your pretty little head about Pakistan's Qualitative edge, Babur & Nasr are testament to how you were caught off guard, and scrambled to play catch up.

Secondly, it has now become irrefutable evidence, that "false flag operations" don't work. BUT those of lower intellect will keep on howling and going around in circles, while we keep taking out the likes of Gulbhushan Yadav and so on.

Lastly, your hatred and inferiority complex will force you to keep coming here, and howl crap. Please feel free to do so.

Thanks

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## Basel

wiseone2 said:


> Just curious is the supply of spares so tightly controlled that PAF cannot operate F-16s for a few weeks of combat ??



Spares are issue during sanctions, that is why home made JFT was built with China to keep air ops going in case 16s are limitedly available due to spares issue.


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## barbarosa

wiseone2 said:


> India had no interest in fighting pakistan let alone crushing it. Indian bureaucracy was still evolving with respect to Pakistan on matters of security. Why would your generals start a war and agree to a ceasefire ??


India can't crush Pakistan, If she could do, she would be no wast a moment.

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## SherDil

wiseone2 said:


> India had no interest in fighting pakistan let alone crushing it.


Yes, Chankiya ideology is stopping your Mahan Bharat to come face to face against Pakistan, and then the whole world saw a dramatic change in Indian strategy in the shape of Mukti Bahni..... cowards

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## Indus Falcon

Basel said:


> Spares are issue during sanctions, that is why home made JFT was built with China to keep air ops going in case 16s are limitedly available due to spares issue.



If I may, I would like to add something here:

The Pressler years did not ground the Vipers, just made the spare parts 300% more expensive. Which obvioulsy resulted in the flight hours being restricted.

Since then the inventory for the spares has increased 4 folds (at least), as well. Just to insure that any embargo would not hurt too much. This is one of the reasons why PAF is happy to take up any second hand viper out there.

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## Joe Shearer

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> I would rather you say it like an enemy of pakistan---then at least we have a clear vision.



Why?

Why should I change my views, and pretend to be the blood-sucking monster that imbeciles think every thinking Indian to be? Does it help you to pull a trigger you have never pulled in your life? Does that salve your soiled consciences? Does it remind you of the enmity that you have displayed towards my country for more than sixty years? Do the unarmed victims of Mumbai disturb your sleep? Does it help that baying pack of hounds you have brought out of their kennels to justify their hatred?

LOL.

I will say what I think, and neither friend nor foe will make me say it differently. Don't judge me by your standards. 



> Sir,
> 
> Okay---so they did---what is the big deal about it---.
> 
> Reality or no reality---at times of war strange things happen---God less men start to worship God--and God fearing men lose hope in their religion---.



It was you who raised a foolish point, not I.

It was the foolish, religious fanatic's point made by @war&peace that I responded to, no original thought was mine.

You create the problems, and then turn and ask with astonishment why you are refuted; what do you call your own behaviour?

I have to conclude that I am dealing with insane people on this forum. A majority of them. Only one - ONE - Pakistani differed, and spoke up for me. As for the rest of you heroes, it is amusing how you ganged up to fight a great fight against overwhelming odds, as your history has you doing each and every time.

You heroes.



war&peace said:


> Really then why did India run to her Daddy USSR for Tashkent accord...why did you not continue the war for another three months?



Learn your history before you cling to these slender reeds to support your jingoist valour.



wiseone2 said:


> IAF is as professional a body as the PAF



Stay out of this; these are the worst elements of PDF. Only two or three of the fanatics are missing. Do not attract their attention.

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## The SC

AsianUnion said:


> Is that $2 billion....only per unit cost of 24 Sukois...? can u break down the details???


SU-35 is around 50 million$ a pop, the Chinese paid about 83 million$ each, you can see where the extra 33 million $ was for: weapons and spare parts, maybe some training and maintenance as well..

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## RAMPAGE

@Joe Shearer 

What baffles me is your indefatigable quest for educating these neanderthal fanatics from both sides. You know what attracted me to you? It was that signature of yours which said:



> Enlightened times will only enlighten a small number of honest men. The common people will always be fanatical.



Perhaps you're simply trying to put the truth out there? Maybe you agree with this quote from Carl Jung which was recently sent to me by an American friend of mine.

_"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." - Carl Jung
_
Is that it?

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## zebra7

The SC said:


> SU-35 is around 50 million$ a pop, the Chinese paid about 83 million$ each, you can see where the 33 extra milion $ wa for weapons and spare parts, maybe some training and maintenance as well..



Minus the Chinese added solutions on the SU-35 replacing the Russian Ones. This is what Chinese Claim. Their claim is that there are many components and subsystem, which are replacing the Russian ones, and I guess Pakistan won't have that that much strong indigenous OEM's who are producing the Subsystems which will replace the Russian Ones. The Best cost should be around 100 Million a Bird.


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## ravi gupta

Indus Falcon said:


> Dear Clueless, don't worry your pretty little head about Pakistan's Qualitative edge, Babur & Nasr are testament to how you were caught off guard, and scrambled to play catch up.
> 
> Secondly, it has now become irrefutable evidence, that "false flag operations" don't work. BUT those of lower intellect will keep on howling and going around in circles, while we keep taking out the likes of Gulbhushan Yadav and so on.
> 
> Lastly, your hatred and inferiority complex will force you to keep coming here, and howl crap. Please feel free to do so.
> 
> Thanks


I was wondering how fast the discussion will cross nuclear threshold,Nasr is a huge disadvantage as its a small tactical nuclear weapon.
Indis does not posses that once fired upon us,we will be compel to retaliate and sorry we dont have small small nuke.
We will answer with our strategic nuclear weapon at your strategic location deep.


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## The SC

zebra7 said:


> Minus the Chinese added solutions on the SU-35 replacing the Russian Ones. This is what Chinese Claim. Their claim is that there are many components and subsystem, which are replacing the Russian ones, and I guess Pakistan won't have that that much strong indigenous OEM's who are producing the Subsystems which will replace the Russian Ones. The Best cost should be around 100 Million a Bird.


The Chinese got the SU-35S, the same version as for the Russian air force,, they can add or modify what they want and pay for it themselves... I think Pakistan will be happy even with export version, let alone the S version, and of course PAF can modify, add and tweak anything on it in time and as they wish,, this is the most important part of it when one buys from Russia..

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## Joe Shearer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> We agree to disagree---. Did you lose any sleep over young kids being blinded by pellet guns in occupied kashmir---or people killed in bomb blast orchestrated by your primo agy in pakistan.
> 
> I have not even started my enmity against your country---. You are fortunate that I am enjoying a comfortable life in the U S---you don't want me in pakistan.
> 
> Stop killing muslims in kashmir and at other places in india---give back east punjab to pakistan---give back land equal to the Hyderabad state to pakistan as well as Goa---.



Yes. I am anguished about the situation in Kashmir. Obviously you neither have a word of Kashur, nor do you have any friends who know Kashur.

No. I have nothing on my conscience about the foul murders caused by the wolves and vermin that you have yourselves raised in Pakistan. They should be on your conscience.

As for your enmity, we still exist. And shall.



RAMPAGE said:


> @Joe Shearer
> 
> What baffles me is your indefatigable quest for educating these neanderthal fanatics from both sides. You know what attracted me to you? It was that signature of yours which said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you're simply trying to put the truth out there? Maybe you agree with this quote from Carl Jung which was recently sent to me by an American friend of mine.
> 
> _"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." - Carl Jung
> _
> Is that it?



What else makes sense? 

Descend to their level and become four-legged beasts?

BTW, why are you here? Go away before they turn on you. This is not a good place for sensitive human beings.

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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> We agree to disagree---. *Did you lose any sleep over young kids being blinded by pellet guns in occupied kashmir---or people killed in bomb blast orchestrated by your primo agy in pakistan.*
> 
> I have not even started my enmity against your country---. You are fortunate that I am enjoying a comfortable life in the U S---you don't want me in pakistan.
> 
> Stop killing muslims in kashmir and at other places in india---give back east punjab to pakistan---give back land equal to the Hyderabad state to pakistan as well as Goa---.


Oh yes he did. He was one of the very few members who actually gave **** about those children while the rest of PDF was either encouraging the stone pelting by those kids (for their own sick reasons) or supporting their slaughter. I didn't want to quote you but I do this because I fear that he might be too modest to say this.

Here's the proof. Don't just read the OP and the other post. Go through the entire discussions if you value the truth. You will find the unambiguous admission of the atrocities of Indian forces against the Kashmir people. It was the admission of that truth which led to him being labelled as _Jaichand _by his fellow countrymen.

https://defence.pk/threads/an-appeal-against-the-bloodshed.439128/
https://defence.pk/threads/kashmir-...stan-islamic-state.444171/page-6#post-8572651

The question is, can you people handle the truth?

@Indus Falcon



Joe Shearer said:


> BTW, why are you here? Go away before they turn on you. This is not a good place for sensitive human beings.


To kindle the light, of course. It still counts, little it may be.They can turn on me all they want but they won't hurt me with their words. That much is beyond them.

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## surya kiran

C130 said:


> U.S does for Israel give a huge amount of military aid.



China does not provide aid, only loans.


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## graphican

Athen said:


> great video but seriously very bad music does not sync with video!!



Watch it with no sound then.


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## wasileo80

wiseone2 said:


> advances in technology have nullified the impact of Thermopyle. In the modern era a well prepared force of 7000 soldiers will slaughter an army of 300 soldiers.



This is not even true in modern age. You can see thousands of examples in the modern world.
See Allied campaign in Afghanistan since 2001 where world's most advance forces cannot eliminate Talibans.



ravi gupta said:


> I was wondering how fast the discussion will cross nuclear threshold,Nasr is a huge disadvantage as its a small tactical nuclear weapon.
> Indis does not posses that once fired upon us,we will be compel to retaliate and sorry we dont have small small nuke.
> We will answer with our strategic nuclear weapon at your strategic location deep.



And as retaliation you will also receive big toys on indian soil too on your strategic locations your economy hubs and your military installations. It would be the destruction for mankind on this planet.


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## Peaceful Civilian

dsr478 said:


> Us buying the Eurofighter is impossible.





dsr478 said:


> Us buying the Eurofighter is impossible. The most advanced aircraft we can actually buy is the Su-35 or *Gripen*, depending on which you think is better.
> 
> I'm hoping for either the Su-35 or* Gripen*, but the J-10 seems like the most likely candidate.


Cost is not only Issue, Even to get such high price Eurofighter , we need approval from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain as this is multinational project. If any country declines due to indian lobby, then we can't get hands on eurofighters.
Our only option available is J10 C .
While Due to recent relation with U.S.A , it is very difficult to get griphen due to its U.S.A engine.

We can't get hands on above fighters unless we offer better price than face value and excellent relation with those countries.

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## CHACHA"G"

*Hello All
I said it many time before and I will say it again Money is not the Issue , Problem is availability and IAF threat (which Increased after Raffel).
PAF have few options we have to replace some very old birds (200 dam big number) and also we need to add more advance tech and number ,
For advance tech + number we got JF17 more advance and bigger blocks will help to achieve both , For replacing Mirages we have 2 options which are , (1)Buy Mirg2000s from middle east and upgrade them "this will be cheaper then having a new bird and will surly give PAF 15+ years of Very Good service.
2nd Option is to go for new bird which is of course (only available ) J10 , We can go for new upgrades in J10 have it with full TOT and give it a name like J10C , J10 again a delta wing , because its a new bird it will surly give us 40+ years of service , with advance tech and also with TOT we can have them in good numbers too.
For 4.5++ we can go for EFT and Su35 both are expensive , EFT is way more expensive then SU-35 , EFT will only be good if KSA have production line (as they once planed) that will make it easy for us , and if we play well on Diplomacy front we can have permission from all EFT owner countries , In case of Su-35 we only have to win Russia , supply of parts wont be a problem (china is there with there own ). We can buy them in different badges like 40 each for 4 years in 12 years we will have 120 of them , only thing to make sure , "There operational availability rate " that 12 years end at 2028 perfect time for TFX to join us (If the TFX program carry on).
Some say what about J31 , I always say the are extremely good to replace F16 (old ones first) , If possible PAF have to buy new F16 block 52+ (with ADD) it will be great if we have 25 more of them that will make 2 squadrons and 7 Extra birds , and with them we can add 60+ J31 (J31 will not cone before 2023 , if Pakistan and china provide Money to this project).*

*In very end for some of you this can sound as whish list or not possible , but for every technical way and from all money prospects it is possible , we have time like till 2030 for adding all of above , we have to start from small numbers and we can build up the numbers . And our economy will be in good shape in 2030(hope so)
And again for those whop said no money there , First its not your Problem , 2nd Money is already on the table for all of above the problem is you and your likes just cant see it.
Thank you all*
@MastanKhan , @Tipu7 , @Windjammer

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## YeBeWarned

Joe Shearer said:


> Excellent post. Read my response here as a "Yes, but.......
> 
> First, about directly blaming the Pakistan Army or the Pakistan State. No, no direct blame, but look at this:
> 
> 
> _Until Pakistan became a key ally in the War on Terrorism, the US Secretary of State included Pakistan on the 1993 list of countries which repeatedly provide support for acts of international terrorism. In fact, many consider that Pakistan has been playing both sides in the fight against terror, on the one hand, pretending to help curtail terrorist activities while on the other, stoking it. Even the noted Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid has accused Pakistan's ISI of providing help to the Taliban, a statement echoed by many, including author Ted Galen Carpenter, who states that Pakistan has "assisted rebel forces in Kashmir even though those groups have committed terrorist acts against civilians"._
> _According to the author Daniel Byman, "Pakistan is probably today's most active sponsor of terrorism."writing in an article published by The Australian stated, "following the terror massacres in Mumbai, Pakistan may now be the single biggest state sponsor of terrorism, beyond even Iran, yet it has never been listed by the US State Department as a state sponsor of terrorism"._
> _Former Pakistan Ruler Pervez Musharraf has conceded that his forces trained militant groups to fight India in Indian-administered Kashmir. He confessed that the government ″turned a blind eye″ because it wanted to force India to enter negotiations besides raising the issue internationally. He also said Pakistani spies in the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate (ISI) cultivated the Taliban after 2001 because Karzai’s government was dominated by non-Pashtuns, the country’s largest ethnic group, and officials who were thought to favour India._



Ok , lets take it point by point ..

1- The US Secretary of State has genuinely have a very short memory, how come they forget that they have been singing lori to all those Mujahadeen Leaders in White house when its in their Interest , Why not Blame KSA , Israel for the same thing they blame Pakistan for ? Supporting Terrorism is just once prospectus , if i see it from a Former USSR Prospectus , than USA is the biggest Supporter of Terrorism ..
and lets not forget the words of US Future President Mrs Clinton .





2- So lets consider this in the Aspect of Prove shall we ?





3- I wont be Surprised if he Said so .. but what about Modi Accepting that they Support , Fund and Trained Mukti bani ? were they Freedom Fighters or terrorist ? if Terrorist than Indian as a State Support Terrorism since 71 long before the WoT started .. and if they were Freedom Fighters than why double Standards for Kashmiri People ?


P.S i think we shouldn't be discussing this here cause we will get thread banned

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## Joe Shearer

Starlord said:


> Ok , lets take it point by point ..
> 
> 1- The US Secretary of State has genuinely have a very short memory, how come they forget that they have been singing lori to all those Mujahadeen Leaders in White house when its in their Interest , Why not Blame KSA , Israel for the same thing they blame Pakistan for ? Supporting Terrorism is just once prospectus , if i see it from a Former USSR Prospectus , than USA is the biggest Supporter of Terrorism ..
> and lets not forget the words of US Future President Mrs Clinton .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2- So lets consider this in the Aspect of Prove shall we ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3- I wont be Surprised if he Said so .. but what about Modi Accepting that they Support , Fund and Trained Mukti bani ? were they Freedom Fighters or terrorist ? if Terrorist than Indian as a State Support Terrorism since 71 long before the WoT started .. and if they were Freedom Fighters than why double Standards for Kashmiri People ?
> 
> 
> P.S i think we shouldn't be discussing this here cause we will get thread banned



We can always discuss it offline. If you want.

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## YeBeWarned

Joe Shearer said:


> We can always discuss it offline. If you want.



Sure Sir why not  
i just don't want to go off topic cause i was preaching someone about not going off topics hhaha


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## Joe Shearer

Starlord said:


> Sure Sir why not
> i just don't want to go off topic cause i was preaching someone about not going off topics hhaha



No, no, that is a painful bad habit. I agree, let's retire before we are retired. Keep an eye open, I'll be coming back to you. Or you can mail me an anonymous mail id to my id below.

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## wiseone2

wasileo80 said:


> This is not even true in modern age. You can see thousands of examples in the modern world.
> See Allied campaign in Afghanistan since 2001 where world's most advance forces cannot eliminate Talibans.
> 
> 
> 
> And as retaliation you will also receive big toys on indian soil too on your strategic locations your economy hubs and your military installations. It would be the destruction for mankind on this planet.



the differential in technology between America and Taliban is huge.

Where does Pakistan have a technology advantage over India ? In the past Pakistan has enjoyed small differential in technology in selected areas. today it is all but disapppeared


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Cost is not only Issue, Even to get such high price Eurofighter , we need approval from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain as this is multinational project. If any country declines due to indian lobby, then we can't get hands on eurofighters.
> Our only option available is J10 C .
> While Due to recent relation with U.S.A , it is very difficult to get griphen due to its U.S.A engine.
> 
> We can't get hands on above fighters unless we offer better price than face value and excellent relation with those countries.


The issue with PAF is they are unable to make up their mind because of the fast evolving technological improvements in fifth gen aircraft. However this does not indicate that PAF should procure more 4th gen or higher aircraft to replace the 3rd gen aircraft currently operated by Pakistan. 

Keeping the above in view one has to understand how to get these aircraft timely and cost effectively. Some mistakes were made by PAF but those are now part of history, hence move on. Lessons from the past teach PAF that always have multiple sources to procure weapons. In 1965 PAF only had USA as the main supplier and that came to haunt in the next conflict. 

Today most of the PDF members are suggesting that PAF should only rely on the Chinese as a sole supplier. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. China is a very dear friend today but things can change. This is how International Politics work. 

Options available to PAF:
USA - 
1)New 16-block 50/52 provided PAF pays the full price. 
2) Old F-16's with MLU Pack but these are not available.

France - 
1) New Rafale - N (Naval versions) for Pakistan Navy
2) Old Mirage 2000 - 5/9... availability not clear.

Sweden -
Grippen New C/D with Euro Jet engines.

United Kingdom - 
New Euro Fighter Typhoon Trench 2 and 3
Old EFT from Spain, Italy, UK and Austria. 

Russia
Mig-35 New
SU-35 New 
SU-34 New

Now lets critically evaluate these options.
F-16 blk 52's cost aprox the same as the Russian aircraft. Old F-16's with MLU are available till OBAMA is President, hence it is unlikely that PAF would be getting any more F-16's after that.

Rafale N for the navy is an option but if France allows Pakistan to develop a similar solutions for JF-17.

Grippen 
Highly unlikely as it would force PAF to stop production of JF-17.

EFT
With Brixit UK loses 50billion USD hence requires to sell more stuff so it is a bargain. The Indians also realize this but they can not do much about it and are threatening to close the companies in UK and pull out all their investments. 






CHACHA"G" said:


> *Hello All
> I said it many time before and I will say it again Money is not the Issue , Problem is availability and IAF threat (which Increased after Raffel).
> PAF have few options we have to replace some very old birds (200 dam big number) and also we need to add more advance tech and number ,
> For advance tech + number we got JF17 more advance and bigger blocks will help to achieve both , For replacing Mirages we have 2 options which are , (1)Buy Mirg2000s from middle east and upgrade them "this will be cheaper then having a new bird and will surly give PAF 15+ years of Very Good service.
> 2nd Option is to go for new bird which is of course (only available ) J10 , We can go for new upgrades in J10 have it with full TOT and give it a name like J10C , J10 again a delta wing , because its a new bird it will surly give us 40+ years of service , with advance tech and also with TOT we can have them in good numbers too.
> For 4.5++ we can go for EFT and Su35 both are expensive , EFT is way more expensive then SU-35 , EFT will only be good if KSA have production line (as they once planed) that will make it easy for us , and if we play well on Diplomacy front we can have permission from all EFT owner countries , In case of Su-35 we only have to win Russia , supply of parts wont be a problem (china is there with there own ). We can buy them in different badges like 40 each for 4 years in 12 years we will have 120 of them , only thing to make sure , "There operational availability rate " that 12 years end at 2028 perfect time for TFX to join us (If the TFX program carry on).
> Some say what about J31 , I always say the are extremely good to replace F16 (old ones first) , If possible PAF have to buy new F16 block 52+ (with ADD) it will be great if we have 25 more of them that will make 2 squadrons and 7 Extra birds , and with them we can add 60+ J31 (J31 will not cone before 2023 , if Pakistan and china provide Money to this project).*
> 
> *In very end for some of you this can sound as whish list or not possible , but for every technical way and from all money prospects it is possible , we have time like till 2030 for adding all of above , we have to start from small numbers and we can build up the numbers . And our economy will be in good shape in 2030(hope so)
> And again for those whop said no money there , First its not your Problem , 2nd Money is already on the table for all of above the problem is you and your likes just cant see it.
> Thank you all*
> @MastanKhan , @Tipu7 , @Windjammer


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## his5850

Rafale and SU-30's are advantage in IAF and they are in huge numbers i think pakistan got only few options 

1)JF-17 block 4 which could be bigger but it will most probably only replace F-16 

2)SU-35 as going on it is not difficult if Russia agrees Russia know india is not going any where with 200+Su-30 and investment in Sukhoi PAK FA it's going to stay Su-35 is a good option 

3)J-10B or C could be one option if we don't want bigger JF-17 that could be the option to go on but i my opinion J-31 is going to be the choice if we buy a next plane from china There also roamers that pakistan is investing in J-31 program as for late date of production chine's official said they going to start the production of J-20 from late 2017 or early 2018 date of J-31 is also could change 

*The planes wich pakistan never going to buy is euro fighter and Saab JAS 39 Gripen too many problems*


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## jermankill

can any one confirm that there any kind of talk btw British and Pakistan for typhoon....i saw on news that British have perform some air show of their fighter plane ?????


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## MastanKhan

Joe Shearer said:


> No, no, that is a painful bad habit. I agree, let's retire before we are retired. Keep an eye open, I'll be coming back to you. Or you can mail me an anonymous mail id to my id below.



Joe,

Is this recruitment season

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## WhyCry

jermankill said:


> can any one confirm that there any kind of talk btw British and Pakistan for typhoon....i saw on news that British have perform some air show of their fighter plane ?????


The only talk that they can have is for the pakistans Bankrupcy and if they are will to bail them out.


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## A.P. Richelieu

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Options available to PAF:
> 
> Sweden -
> Grippen New C/D with Euro Jet engines.
> 
> Grippen
> Highly unlikely as it would force PAF to stop production of JF-17.


Forget Gripen, as Sweden does not sell such weapons to Pakistan.
Swedish laws categorizes countries, and Pakistan is only allowed to buy defensive material like EriEye.

And we won't sell to countries which cannot spell Gripen correctly, LOL.

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## jermankill

oh plz just stfu this is non of ur businesses stay out of it


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## Indus Falcon

MastanKhan said:


> Joe,
> 
> Is this recruitment season



Seems he's quite good at attracting retards, has a natural panache for it.

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## Basel

@Oscar @waz @Horus please clean this thread of off topic posts.


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## MastanKhan

Starlord said:


> Sure Sir why not
> i just don't want to go off topic cause i was preaching someone about not going off topics hhaha




Hi,

You just crossed the first step---for qualifying to be recruited by the enemy primo intel agy.

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## wiseone2

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The issue with PAF is they are unable to make up their mind because of the fast evolving technological improvements in fifth gen aircraft. However this does not indicate that PAF should procure more 4th gen or higher aircraft to replace the 3rd gen aircraft currently operated by Pakistan.
> 
> France -
> 1) New Rafale - N (Naval versions) for Pakistan Navy
> 2) Old Mirage 2000 - 5/9... availability not clear.
> 
> Sweden -
> Grippen New C/D with Euro Jet engines.
> 
> United Kingdom -
> New Euro Fighter Typhoon Trench 2 and 3
> Old EFT from Spain, Italy, UK and Austria.
> 
> Russia
> Mig-35 New
> SU-35 New
> SU-34 New
> 
> Now lets critically evaluate these options.
> F-16 blk 52's cost aprox the same as the Russian aircraft. Old F-16's with MLU are available till OBAMA is President, hence it is unlikely that PAF would be getting any more F-16's after that.
> 
> Rafale N for the navy is an option but if France allows Pakistan to develop a similar solutions for JF-17.
> 
> Grippen
> Highly unlikely as it would force PAF to stop production of JF-17.
> 
> EFT
> With Brixit UK loses 50billion USD hence requires to sell more stuff so it is a bargain. The Indians also realize this but they can not do much about it and are threatening to close the companies in UK and pull out all their investments.



Mirage-2000 production line has been shut for 10+ years
Rafale-N is not available since the IAF is purchasing it

Typhoon is a political hassle to deal with 4 countries

I do not think Pakistan will be impressed with Russian combat aircraft. If PAF purchases Russian aircraft it will be a sign of desperation


----------



## YeBeWarned

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You just crossed the first step---for qualifying to be recruited by the enemy primo intel agy.



Every Soul is up for Sale .. so is your's  its just the amount and way of Payment that can Vary .. good day Sire


----------



## Indus Falcon

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The issue with PAF is they are unable to make up their mind because of the fast evolving technological improvements in fifth gen aircraft. However this does not indicate that PAF should procure more 4th gen or higher aircraft to replace the 3rd gen aircraft currently operated by Pakistan.
> 
> Keeping the above in view one has to understand how to get these aircraft timely and cost effectively. Some mistakes were made by PAF but those are now part of history, hence move on. Lessons from the past teach PAF that always have multiple sources to procure weapons. In 1965 PAF only had USA as the main supplier and that came to haunt in the next conflict.
> 
> Today most of the PDF members are suggesting that PAF should only rely on the Chinese as a sole supplier. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. China is a very dear friend today but things can change. This is how International Politics work.
> 
> Options available to PAF:
> USA -
> 1)New 16-block 50/52 provided PAF pays the full price.
> 2) Old F-16's with MLU Pack but these are not available.
> 
> *France -
> 1) New Rafale - N (Naval versions) for Pakistan Navy
> 2) Old Mirage 2000 - 5/9... availability not clear.*
> 
> Sweden -
> Grippen New C/D with Euro Jet engines.
> 
> United Kingdom -
> New Euro Fighter Typhoon Trench 2 and 3
> Old EFT from Spain, Italy, UK and Austria.
> 
> Russia
> Mig-35 New
> SU-35 New
> SU-34 New
> 
> Now lets critically evaluate these options.
> F-16 blk 52's cost aprox the same as the Russian aircraft. Old F-16's with MLU are available till OBAMA is President, hence it is unlikely that PAF would be getting any more F-16's after that.
> 
> Rafale N for the navy is an option but if France allows Pakistan to develop a similar solutions for JF-17.
> 
> Grippen
> Highly unlikely as it would force PAF to stop production of JF-17.
> 
> EFT
> With Brixit UK loses 50billion USD hence requires to sell more stuff so it is a bargain. The Indians also realize this but they can not do much about it and are threatening to close the companies in UK and pull out all their investments.



I will only comment on the above items in red:

*Rafale N *- was cancelled and replaced with the Rafale M, which is a customized version for carrier borne operations. PN is not planning to get any air craft carriers any time soon, so C & B combo should suit us just fine, provided the French sell to us.

*Mirage 2000 - *
a) Brazil retired 12 ex-ADA in Dec 2013. 

b) Peru - 10 aircraft grounded due to lack of spares / financial issues

c) France - @Taygibay is the right person to comment on them. From what I have heard 55 ac's are being upgraded, more could follow soon.

d) UAE - Nothing available till 2022. They have been going through regular upgrades, so them being phased out before 2025 ~ 2030 seems highly unlikely.

e) Qatar - Once the Rafale's achieve FOC, this could become a possibility.

Practically speaking anything less than 25 ~ 30 aircraft is not feasible. It's a totally different platform, and has nothing in common to the mirages in PAF inventory.

Thanks!

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## MastanKhan

Starlord said:


> Every Soul is up for Sale .. so is your's  its just the amount and way of Payment that can Vary .. good day Sire



Hi,

And that is the second step---.

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## surya kiran

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Forget Gripen, as Sweden does not sell such weapons to Pakistan.
> Swedish laws categorizes countries, and Pakistan is only allowed to buy defensive material like EriEye.
> 
> And we won't sell to countries which cannot spell Gripen correctly, LOL.



What is Swedish law, with regards to selling stuff during a conflict?


----------



## MastanKhan

Indus Falcon said:


> I will only comment on the above items in red:
> 
> *Rafale N *- was cancelled and replaced with the Rafale M, which is a customized version for carrier borne operations. PN is not planning to get any air craft carriers any time soon, so C & B combo should suit us just fine, provided the French sell to us.
> 
> *Mirage 2000 - *
> a) Brazil retired 12 ex-ADA in Dec 2013.
> 
> b) Peru - 10 aircraft grounded due to lack of spares / financial issues
> 
> c) France - @Taygibay is the right person to comment on them. From what I have heard 55 ac's are being upgraded, more could follow soon.
> 
> d) UAE - Nothing available till 2022. They have been going through regular upgrades, so them being phased out before 2025 ~ 2030 seems highly unlikely.
> 
> e) Qatar - Once the Rafale's achieve FOC, this could become a possibility.
> 
> Practically speaking anything less than 25 ~ 30 aircraft is not feasible. It's a totally different platform, and has nothing in common to the mirages in PAF inventory.
> 
> Thanks!



Hi,

I don't think that the M2K can fit in today's scenario---. 12-14 years ago---it was a different story---that was the time to get the Rafale---.

I think that the paf---needs to step back---get non paf personal ( like me ) involved and have a brain storming session.

The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise.

The americans are openly saying that their 5th gen aircraft are beyond good---but they are also saying under what conditions they are par excellence---but people are not listening to that part---and that part realistically is the 80% power projection of the american 5th gen aircraft---and this part is the conventional heavy strike aircraft---loaded to the hilt---flying at a distance---connected thru Data link and all its weapons at the disposal of the 5th gen operator.

As it enters deep into the enemy's air space---and observes what needed to be struck---it can simply launch the needed weapons from the heavy strike aircraft without the authorization or permission of that aircraft.

The enemy knows a strike has taken place---but it cannot see from where the strike came from.

People call it " Tag Team "---wrestling ala USAF style.

The Paf needs to go in a different direction to counter the enemy's heavy aircraft and strike power---it either needs to go for the J16 or the JH7B and the J31---it has to have a twin engine heavy. JF17 cannot cut it.

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## Taygibay

Indus Falcon said:


> c) France - @Taygibay is the right person to comment on them. From what I have heard 55 ac's are being upgraded, more could follow soon.



Not very interesting, my friend! Those of our Mirages that
will not be upgraded have worn out cells with no life poten-
tial left.
If anyone could do it, Pakistan could considering the awesome
job on the IIIs and 5s but they better come cheaper than cheap.
The Ds that are upgradable may all be retrofitted.

The 2000 D & -5 DA being out, maybe the Ns could be sold
once replaced but their service exit date of -by 2020 may be pushed
back by the interruption of Rafale deliveries following the LPM.

That program law ends in 2019 so we have to wait for then to know
for sure with some changes possible after next elections ( March 2017 ).

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

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## Indus Falcon

ravi gupta said:


> I was wondering how fast the discussion will cross nuclear threshold,Nasr is a huge disadvantage as its a small tactical nuclear weapon.
> Indis does not posses that once fired upon us,we will be compel to retaliate and sorry we dont have small small nuke.
> We will answer with our strategic nuclear weapon at your strategic location deep.



See there you go again, talking crap and misconstruing things, and proving how clueless you are. My ref. to Babur and Nasr was as follows:

1) Babur - Back in Oct 2005, when Pakistan and India were signing the Missile Notification pact, Pakistan asked India to include cruise missiles, to which India arrogantly rejected:

"India was not aware that Pakistan had a cruise missile when it rejected a Pakistani proposal to include the missiles in a test notification agreement."
http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/india-rejected-pakistans-missile-alert-offer-6340/


2) Nasr - Cold start doctrine. Again, Indian military planners thought they had the upper hand with a half baked "cold start doctrine." Unfortunately for them NASR popped their bubble. Subsequent to that, upgrades to NASR, and other measures were taken to insure, should any misadventure be taken, a befitting reply can be given.

Lastly, the more false flag operations you carry out, the more you like the idiot who cried wolf.

Just these two points shows the naivety of the Indian leadership. Now you can go back to spewing your blind jingoistic banter.

Thank You.

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## wiseone2

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't think that the M2K can fit in today's scenario---. 12-14 years ago---it was a different story---that was the time to get the Rafale---.
> 
> I think that the paf---needs to step back---get non paf personal ( like me ) involved and have a brain storming session.
> 
> The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise.
> 
> The americans are openly saying that their 5th gen aircraft are beyond good---but they are also saying under what conditions they are par excellence---but people are not listening to that part---and that part realistically is the 80% power projection of the american 5th gen aircraft---and this part is the conventional heavy strike aircraft---loaded to the hilt---flying at a distance---connected thru Data link and all its weapons at the disposal of the 5th gen operator.
> 
> As it enters deep into the enemy's air space---and observes what needed to be struck---it can simply launch the needed weapons from the heavy strike aircraft with the authorization or permission of that aircraft.
> 
> The enemy knows a strike has taken place---but it cannot see from where the strike came from.
> 
> People call it " Tag Team "---wrestling ala USAF style.
> 
> The Paf needs to go in a different direction to counter the enemy's heavy aircraft and strike power---it either needs to go for the J16 or the JH7B and the J31---it has to have a twin engine heavy. JF17 cannot cut it.



why would rest of the world want to believe it ? it is scary


----------



## Indus Falcon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't think that the M2K can fit in today's scenario---. 12-14 years ago---it was a different story---that was the time to get the Rafale---.
> 
> I think that the paf---needs to step back---get non paf personal ( like me ) involved and have a brain storming session.
> 
> The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise.
> 
> The americans are openly saying that their 5th gen aircraft are beyond good---but they are also saying under what conditions they are par excellence---but people are not listening to that part---and that part realistically is the 80% power projection of the american 5th gen aircraft---and this part is the conventional heavy strike aircraft---loaded to the hilt---flying at a distance---connected thru Data link and all its weapons at the disposal of the 5th gen operator.
> 
> As it enters deep into the enemy's air space---and observes what needed to be struck---it can simply launch the needed weapons from the heavy strike aircraft with the authorization or permission of that aircraft.
> 
> The enemy knows a strike has taken place---but it cannot see from where the strike came from.
> 
> People call it " Tag Team "---wrestling ala USAF style.
> 
> The Paf needs to go in a different direction to counter the enemy's heavy aircraft and strike power---it either needs to go for the J16 or the JH7B and the J31---it has to have a twin engine heavy. JF17 cannot cut it.



I agree with you that the M2K is best left on the pasture. It would be a terrible stop gap measure. The quantities, and tech, are simply not there. The Rafale would have been a much better option, but PAF seems to have missed the boat on that as well.

Besides the Chinese Options, the Russian seems the most logical at this point in time, but the silence and the slow progress on the induction of a new platform is disturbing.

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## The SC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't think that the M2K can fit in today's scenario---. 12-14 years ago---it was a different story---that was the time to get the Rafale---.
> 
> I think that the paf---needs to step back---get non paf personal ( like me ) involved and have a brain storming session.
> 
> The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise.
> 
> The americans are openly saying that their 5th gen aircraft are beyond good---but they are also saying under what conditions they are par excellence---but people are not listening to that part---and that part realistically is the 80% power projection of the american 5th gen aircraft---and this part is the conventional heavy strike aircraft---loaded to the hilt---flying at a distance---connected thru Data link and all its weapons at the disposal of the 5th gen operator.
> 
> As it enters deep into the enemy's air space---and observes what needed to be struck---it can simply launch the needed weapons from the heavy strike aircraft with the authorization or permission of that aircraft.
> 
> The enemy knows a strike has taken place---but it cannot see from where the strike came from.
> 
> People call it " Tag Team "---wrestling ala USAF style.
> 
> The Paf needs to go in a different direction to counter the enemy's heavy aircraft and strike power---it either needs to go for the J16 or the JH7B and the J31---it has to have a twin engine heavy. JF17 cannot cut it.


Hi,
I do understand the scenario, but it is not as easy as it might seem,; first stealth airplanes of very very low RCS can be detected 20 km from the country's borders, so deep penetration , I' ll leave that to the B2s and B1-Bs, secondly long range radars will detect the F-15s and F-18s -if it is that what you are talking about- from long distance.. so what a country needs is an integrated short, medium and long range, high and low altitude air defense systems to counter this scenario.. as one can see on these graphs:













Indus Falcon said:


> I agree with you that the M2K is best left on the pasture. It would be a terrible stop gap measure. The quantities, and tech, are simply not there. The Rafale would have been a much better option, but PAF seems to have missed the boat on that as well.
> 
> Besides the Chinese Options, the Russian seems the most logical at this point in time, but the silence and the slow progress on the induction of a new platform is disturbing.


Not too far away in time a French pilot locked on an F-22 or F-35 in some exercises...with a French Mirage-2000, so I think the upgraded ones are still very potent..


----------



## Indus Falcon

The SC said:


> Not too far away in time a French pilot locked on an F-22 or F-35 in some exercises...with a French Mirage-2000, so I think the upgraded ones are still very potent..



Rafale Vs F22 at Dhafra, is one that I know of. Details would be appreciated, to what you are referring to.

Secondly, everything that happens in an exercise is not always true. A lot of times the opponent is allowed to win, so that all his "cards" are on the table, whereas yours are not.

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## Super Falcon

Mav3rick said:


> Highly unlikely. Why would PAF go for any new platform until India actually procures Rafael.


RAFALE is processed with in 36 month india induct 36 rafale so ts time to go ahead

My guess is SU 35


----------



## The SC

Indus Falcon said:


> Rafale Vs F22 at Dhafra, is one that I know of. Details would be appreciated, to what you are referring to.
> 
> Secondly, everything that happens in an exercise is not always true. A lot of times the opponent is allowed to win, so that all his "cards" are on the table, whereas yours are not.



" The U.S. pilots copped to just one loss in the war game — an F-22 defeated by a Mirage 2000 flown by an Emirati aviator."
https://warisboring.com/the-french-shot-down-u-s-stealth-fighter-f59db16282ca#.cj8l8gmy6

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## Super Falcon

Imran Khan said:


> we have these lollypops since last 15 years . i will never belive until i see them in pakistani colors


Seeing is believing

But there is something cooking


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## Indus Falcon

The SC said:


> " The U.S. pilots copped to just one loss in the war game — an F-22 defeated by a Mirage 2000 flown by an Emirati aviator."
> https://warisboring.com/the-french-shot-down-u-s-stealth-fighter-f59db16282ca#.cj8l8gmy6



@Khafee Is the right man. I'll find out what he can cough up. 

@MastanKhan the same one, people call names on this forum said:

"The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise."

https://defence.pk/threads/a-new-aircraft-for-paf.435458/page-56#post-8772405

The following article states:
"Even before the Emirati and French wins in 2009, the Americans knew the F-22 could be beaten, although they rarely mentioned this uncomfortable fact. During the Raptor’s first-ever major air exercise in 2006, an Air Force F-16 most likely dating from the 1980s managed to “kill” an F-22. A Navy Growler jet,designed to jam enemy radars, repeated the feat in 2008 or early 2009."

https://warisboring.com/the-french-shot-down-u-s-stealth-fighter-f59db16282ca#.5x8vj51zb

@MastanKhan If you don't believe in God, now would be a good time. Seems you could vindicated pretty fast

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## ACE OF THE AIR

wiseone2 said:


> Mirage-2000 production line has been shut for 10+ years
> Rafale-N is not available since the IAF is purchasing it
> 
> Typhoon is a political hassle to deal with 4 countries
> 
> I do not think Pakistan will be impressed with Russian combat aircraft. If PAF purchases Russian aircraft it will be a sign of desperation


Where in my post did you read Pakistan is interested in getting NEW Mirage 2000's?

As far as desperation is concerned it would be when Pakistan buys some Iranian manufactured aircraft.



Indus Falcon said:


> I will only comment on the above items in red:
> 
> *Rafale N *- was cancelled and replaced with the Rafale M, which is a customized version for carrier borne operations. PN is not planning to get any air craft carriers any time soon, so C & B combo should suit us just fine, provided the French sell to us.
> 
> *Mirage 2000 - *
> a) Brazil retired 12 ex-ADA in Dec 2013.
> 
> b) Peru - 10 aircraft grounded due to lack of spares / financial issues
> 
> c) France - @Taygibay is the right person to comment on them. From what I have heard 55 ac's are being upgraded, more could follow soon.
> 
> d) UAE - Nothing available till 2022. They have been going through regular upgrades, so them being phased out before 2025 ~ 2030 seems highly unlikely.
> 
> e) Qatar - Once the Rafale's achieve FOC, this could become a possibility.
> 
> Practically speaking anything less than 25 ~ 30 aircraft is not feasible. It's a totally different platform, and has nothing in common to the mirages in PAF inventory.
> 
> Thanks!


Sir, Rafale N was quoted for the very reason you mentioned. Pakistan can not procure the Rafale C & B or M because India still is interested in those in large numbers.

Rafale N is not purchased because it has been canceled so India can not limit its sales if this is relaunched. France is known to supply weapons to both sides of the conflict if they are willing to pay the right price. Remember Libya under Qadafi was offered Rafales for a billion USD a pup.

Sir if PAF does go after the Mirage 2000's which include the South American and Qatari they would be approximately the same numbers as you have mentioned. Still they would require a new setup where as major maintenance can be done in UAE.

Thanks.



Taygibay said:


> Not very interesting, my friend! Those of our Mirages that
> will not be upgraded have worn out cells with no life poten-
> tial left.
> If anyone could do it, Pakistan could considering the awesome
> job on the IIIs and 5s but they better come cheaper than cheap.
> The Ds that are upgradable may all be retrofitted.
> 
> The 2000 D & -5 DA being out, maybe the Ns could be sold
> once replaced but their service exit date of -by 2020 may be pushed
> back by the interruption of Rafale deliveries following the LPM.
> 
> That program law ends in 2019 so we have to wait for then to know
> for sure with some changes possible after next elections ( March 2017 ).
> 
> All the best to you and yours, Tay.


Sir, 
Reading your post brings me to this conclusion that a complete rebuilt facility is required for Mirage 2000's. What is the status of this? What little is known to me is that the last assembly unit was sold as scrap because it could not support the production of Rafales.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't think that the M2K can fit in today's scenario---. 12-14 years ago---it was a different story---that was the time to get the Rafale---.
> 
> I think that the paf---needs to step back---get non paf personal ( like me ) involved and have a brain storming session.
> 
> The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise.
> 
> The americans are openly saying that their 5th gen aircraft are beyond good---but they are also saying under what conditions they are par excellence---but people are not listening to that part---and that part realistically is the 80% power projection of the american 5th gen aircraft---and this part is the conventional heavy strike aircraft---loaded to the hilt---flying at a distance---connected thru Data link and all its weapons at the disposal of the 5th gen operator.
> 
> As it enters deep into the enemy's air space---and observes what needed to be struck---it can simply launch the needed weapons from the heavy strike aircraft without the authorization or permission of that aircraft.
> 
> The enemy knows a strike has taken place---but it cannot see from where the strike came from.
> 
> People call it " Tag Team "---wrestling ala USAF style.
> 
> The Paf needs to go in a different direction to counter the enemy's heavy aircraft and strike power---it either needs to go for the J16 or the JH7B and the J31---it has to have a twin engine heavy. JF17 cannot cut it.





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't think that the M2K can fit in today's scenario---. 12-14 years ago---it was a different story---that was the time to get the Rafale---.
> 
> I think that the paf---needs to step back---get non paf personal ( like me ) involved and have a brain storming session.
> 
> The base is the US air force---they are already telling the world the direction they are headed---the problem is the world does not understand what the usaf is saying---because they don't want to believe in it---and when you don't believe in something---you don't hear it---because as it does not register---it just counts as noise.
> 
> The americans are openly saying that their 5th gen aircraft are beyond good---but they are also saying under what conditions they are par excellence---but people are not listening to that part---and that part realistically is the 80% power projection of the american 5th gen aircraft---and this part is the conventional heavy strike aircraft---loaded to the hilt---flying at a distance---connected thru Data link and all its weapons at the disposal of the 5th gen operator.
> 
> As it enters deep into the enemy's air space---and observes what needed to be struck---it can simply launch the needed weapons from the heavy strike aircraft without the authorization or permission of that aircraft.
> 
> The enemy knows a strike has taken place---but it cannot see from where the strike came from.
> 
> People call it " Tag Team "---wrestling ala USAF style.
> 
> The Paf needs to go in a different direction to counter the enemy's heavy aircraft and strike power---it either needs to go for the J16 or the JH7B and the J31---it has to have a twin engine heavy. JF17 cannot cut it.


Sir,
Do you think PAF made a mistake in not purchasing a replacement for the bombers it used to have? When PAF was offered the F-16's PAF could also have asked for F-14 or F-15's or later F-18's.

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## A.P. Richelieu

surya kiran said:


> What is Swedish law, with regards to selling stuff during a conflict?



A country should not be qualified if

it is at war with another country
It is involved in an international conflict which may result in war
there is an active insurgency
it commits severe violations against human rights.

Once qualified, I think that is governed by contracts with the buyer.
Haubits 77 (FH-77) got all the support India wanted. (Did not want it during a period for well known reasons)
A decision in the UNSC to block exports would be honoured of course.

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## Indus Falcon

The SC said:


> Hi,
> I do understand the scenario, but it is not as easy as it might seem,; first stealth airplanes of very very low RCS can be detected 20 km from the country's borders, so deep penetration , I' ll leave that to the B2s and B1-Bs, secondly long range radars will detect the F-15s and F-18s -if it is that what you are talking about- from long distance.. so what a country needs is an integrated short, medium and long range, high and low altitude air defense systems to counter this scenario.. as one can see on these graphs:



IRST tech has been progressing in leaps and bounds. Current gen IRST systems range exceeds that of AESA radars. Now this throws a spanner in the works for stealth tech.

Please see following links for details:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...lex-radar-eurofighter-infrared-irst/26508459/

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/skyward-g-irst

http://aviationweek.com/technology/new-radars-irst-strengthen-stealth-detection-claims

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/airborne-irst-properties-and-performance/

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## The SC

Indus Falcon said:


> IRST tech has been progressing in leaps and bounds. Current gen IRST systems range exceeds that of AESA radars. Now this throws a spanner in the works for stealth tech.
> 
> Please see following links for details:
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...lex-radar-eurofighter-infrared-irst/26508459/
> 
> http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/skyward-g-irst
> 
> http://aviationweek.com/technology/new-radars-irst-strengthen-stealth-detection-claims
> 
> https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/airborne-irst-properties-and-performance/


I've seen that many times, thanks!
I didn't want to go into details, radars were enough for that scenario, but for air to air detection , the main tool that proved to be efficient against stealth is IRST, since it could detect the F-22 at around 50 km while being both radar silent..


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## Indus Falcon

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, Rafale N was quoted for the very reason you mentioned. Pakistan can not procure the Rafale C & B or M because India still is interested in those in large numbers.
> 
> Rafale N is not purchased because it has been canceled so India can not limit its sales if this is relaunched. France is known to supply weapons to both sides of the conflict if they are willing to pay the right price. Remember Libya under Qadafi was offered Rafales for a billion USD a pup.
> 
> Sir if PAF does go after the Mirage 2000's which include the South American and Qatari they would be approximately the same numbers as you have mentioned. Still they would require a new setup where as major maintenance can be done in UAE.
> 
> Thanks.



The Brazilian Mirages were bought second hand from the Armée de l'air / French Air Force. They have more than 10,000 hours on them.

The Qataris will not be deposing of theirs for then next two to three years.

In light of all of these issues, this option doesn't look very viable.

Best Regards



The SC said:


> I've seen that many times, thanks!
> I didn't want to go into details, radars were enough for that scenario, but for air to air detection , the main tool that proved to be efficient against stealth is IRST, since it could detect the F-22 at around 50 km while being both radar silent..



Latest gen IRST has ranges exceeding 100km+ is all that I can say on a public forum.

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## MastanKhan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> Do you think PAF made a mistake in not purchasing a replacement for the bombers it used to have? When PAF was offered the F-16's PAF could also have asked for F-14 or F-15's or later F-18's.



Hi,

The Paf was told at that time to diversify---go for the M2K's.

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## wiseone2

A.P. Richelieu said:


> A country should not be qualified if
> 
> it is at war with another country
> It is involved in an international conflict which may result in war
> there is an active insurgency
> it commits severe violations against human rights.
> 
> Once qualified, I think that is governed by contracts with the buyer.
> Haubits 77 (FH-77) got all the support India wanted. (Did not want it during a period for well known reasons)
> A decision in the UNSC to block exports would be honoured of course.



Just curious
is Pakistan a qualified country for arm exports ??


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## The SC

Indus Falcon said:


> The Brazilian Mirages were bought second hand from the Armée de l'air / French Air Force. They have more than 10,000 hours on them.
> 
> The Qataris will not be deposing of theirs for then next two to three years.
> 
> In light of all of these issues, this option doesn't look very viable.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> 
> Latest gen IRST has ranges exceeding 100km+ is all that I can say on a public forum.


I've heard the SU-35 discussions with Russia were fruitful, So SU-35 might be coming but I hope the delivery date won't be a problem..
Mirage-2000 will be a good addition when it will be available, The Qatari ones with some UAE ones, 2 squadrons will be ideal if no F-16 block 52 or MLU ones are available..
IRST became so important that the US is incorporating it on its F-15s!

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## royalharris

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Forget Gripen, as Sweden does not sell such weapons to Pakistan.
> Swedish laws categorizes countries, and Pakistan is only allowed to buy defensive material like EriEye.
> 
> And we won't sell to countries which cannot spell Gripen correctly, LOL.


Gripen?


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## Hephaestus

waz said:


> The only other option is the Typhoon, which has been pitched to the PAF and has two reliable partners in the form of the UK and Italy, but then finances are questionable.
> There is no way it's a Grippen, Sweden has refused in the past and Pakistan won't ask again. The SU-35 is an impossibility due to Indian pressure.



I think China will transfer a few Su-35's to Pak. 
Russians might say damn we didn't know they'll do that.

Possible scenario. Has anyone thought of this? Is this even possible? @Imran Khan 


Falcon26 said:


> A PAF that operates 110 F-16s, 40 Typhoons and ~250 JF-17 supported by Erieye and Chinese AWACS is one hell of a nightmare for any Air Force.


It would indeed be.


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## PakAlp

Hello all members - i would like to make it clear that i am not starting a Pak V India who has a better plane post. My aim is to discuss the Plans by IAF and PAf for future

Regarding the deal by India to purchase french 4+ generation Rafael fighter planes which are one of the world best planes, these will arrive in 3plus years and final number could end up at approx 126 planes

India air force also has one of the world best fighter plane, the 4+ generation su30mki which will end with total number approx 274

The 4th generation lca will also be inducted in 200plus numbers

India will also induct 5th generation fighter numbering atleast 200

So by 2025 India will have: 
Rafael fighter 100+
Su30mki 274+
Hal Fgfa 50+
Lca 200+

(Am leaving out some planes)

For Pakistan to counter these threats so faar we have:
F16 numbering at 76 
Jf17 numbering at 90

By 2025 according to current plan:
F16 - 76
Jf17 - 250

(Am ignoring older tech planes)

Paf have no confirmed news of any other planes which they will buy in order to counter the threats posed by Indian air force and no official confirmation regarding 5th generation planes.

So i am baffled how Pak Air force plans to counter these emerging threats, i did read many times that Jf17 is enough to counter these threat because Jf17 block 3 will be a different class fighter but i think this is not a real good answer

Pakistan air force needs to think about adding a new platform of planes such as Medium tech planes like chinese J10B planes and either get involved in the Turkish 5th gen project or chinese J31. This needs to be decided in 2016 or 2017 so they have enough time.

To counter IAF threat 2025:
Rafael fighter 100+
Su30mki 274+
Lca 200
Fgfa 50

PAF needs to be by 2025:
F16 - 76
J10B - 150
Jf17 - 250
J31 - 20

Looks better than
PAF by 2025
F16 -76
Jf17 - 250

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## iPhone

Joe Shearer said:


> Chief,
> 
> I say this as a genuine friend of Pakistan, but as a friend who is losing hope, every day: the perspective is horribly different from where I stand. The four auxiliary divisions of the Pakistan Army,
> 
> the Hizb ul Mujahideen,
> the Jaish e Mohammed,
> the Harkat e Mujahideen and
> the Lashkar e Taiba
> flourished throughout this period. Attacks continued, in enervated form, throughout this period, without let-up.
> 
> What did you have in mind when you said that there was no continuation of provocation after 2002? We did not see any break.


Sit down with us and solve the kashmir issue and there won't be any of these problems you speak of. Until and unless this core issue is resolved we can't properly move towards peace no matter how many moving and peace loving speeches anyone writes.

I genuinely believe the vast majority of people on both sides do not war of and want to live their lives peacefully with others around them. But efforts towards that goal are proving fruitless because the core issue exists.

Let's sit down and talk about it. Whatever the outcome, even if it's in favor of india I assure you the Pakistani people have had enough of it that they will concede to whatever the outcome of the kashmir dispute.

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## sparten

Lets look at what the enemy currently has.

Our JF17 are superior to every Indian plane except the MKI.
The Block 50/52 and MLU F16 are superior to MKI.

In the Air Defence role, the F16s, Thunder's and BVR mixed with F7's and all supported by AWACS can easily take care of any expected threats. The MKI only has limited strike capabilities in the first place.

In the strike role, the JF17, ROSE Mirage have Stand off weaponry which can enable them to hit Indian targets from distance with lesser exposure. F16 Block 50/52 and MLU jammers are pretty good too.

When the Rafael comes, the equation changes; a lot. That would require more platforms; such as maybe the J31 as well as force multipliers like drones with data links, maybe better ground bases AD, longer range stand off weapons.

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## Joe Shearer

iPhone said:


> Sit down with us and solve the kashmir issue and there won't be any of these problems you speak of. Until and unless this core issue is resolved we can't properly move towards peace no matter how many moving and peace loving speeches anyone writes.
> 
> I genuinely believe the vast majority of people on sides does not war of any kind and want to live their lives peacefully with others around them. But efforts towards that goal are proving fruitless because the core issue exists.
> 
> Let's sit down and talk about it. Whatever the outcome, even if it's in favor of india I assure you the Pakistani people have had enough of it that they will concede to whatever the outcome of the kashmir dispute.



How I wish I had the authority to sit down and talk to you.

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## Arsalan

Indus Falcon said:


> Latest gen IRST has ranges exceeding 100km+ is all that I can say on a public forum.


He was talking about detecting a stealth plane dear, not the spec range. 



Joe Shearer said:


> How I wish I had the authority to sit down and talk to you.


Sir the day people wishing to sit down and talk about it surpasses the number of people who talk about war to satisfy there ego, the situation will change for the better.

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## Falcon26

I wish Pakistan can muster enough funds to procure 24 Eurofighters through Italy and use it as a basis to upgrade the combat capabilities of the JF-17. Pakistan's answer to the Rafael can only come through an enhanced JF-17 that incorporates cutting edge subsystems as QUWA recently very well argued on his blog.

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## Signalian

DefenceSultan said:


> Hello all members - i would like to make it clear that i am not starting a Pak V India who has a better plane post. My aim is to discuss the Plans by IAF and PAf for future
> 
> Regarding the deal by India to purchase french 4+ generation Rafael fighter planes which are one of the world best planes, these will arrive in 3plus years and final number could end up at approx 126 planes
> 
> India air force also has one of the world best fighter plane, the 4+ generation su30mki which will end with total number approx 274
> 
> The 4th generation lca will also be inducted in 200plus numbers
> 
> India will also induct 5th generation fighter numbering atleast 200
> 
> So by 2025 India will have:
> Rafael fighter 100+
> Su30mki 274+
> Hal Fgfa 50+
> Lca 200+
> 
> (Am leaving out some planes)
> 
> For Pakistan to counter these threats so faar we have:
> F16 numbering at 76
> Jf17 numbering at 90
> 
> By 2025 according to current plan:
> F16 - 76
> Jf17 - 250
> 
> (Am ignoring older tech planes)
> 
> Paf have no confirmed news of any other planes which they will buy in order to counter the threats posed by Indian air force and no official confirmation regarding 5th generation planes.
> 
> So i am baffled how Pak Air force plans to counter these emerging threats, i did read many times that Jf17 is enough to counter these threat because Jf17 block 3 will be a different class fighter but i think this is not a real good answer
> 
> Pakistan air force needs to think about adding a new platform of planes such as Medium tech planes like chinese J10B planes and either get involved in the Turkish 5th gen project or chinese J31. This needs to be decided in 2016 or 2017 so they have enough time.
> 
> To counter IAF threat 2025:
> Rafael fighter 100+
> Su30mki 274+
> Lca 200
> Fgfa 50
> 
> PAF needs to be by 2025:
> F16 - 76
> J10B - 150
> Jf17 - 250
> J31 - 20
> 
> Looks better than
> PAF by 2025
> F16 -76
> Jf17 - 250



You have completely avoided the following assets of PAF:

Rose upgraded Mirages for strike roles
F-7PG as point defence asset
SSW and its role behind enemy lines
UCAV Burraq and its role as a strike asset
use of trainer aircraft like MFI-17 or K-8 for combat operational purpose. 
Special mission aircrafts as force multipliers especially ELINT aircraft
SAMs in use of PAF.

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

sparten said:


> Lets look at what the enemy currently has.
> 
> Our JF17 are superior to every Indian plane except the MKI.
> The Block 50/52 and MLU F16 are superior to MKI.
> 
> In the Air Defence role, the F16s, Thunder's and BVR mixed with F7's and all supported by AWACS can easily take care of any expected threats. The MKI only has limited strike capabilities in the first place.
> 
> In the strike role, the JF17, ROSE Mirage have Stand off weaponry which can enable them to hit Indian targets from distance with lesser exposure. F16 Block 50/52 and MLU jammers are pretty good too.
> 
> When the Rafael comes, the equation changes; a lot. That would require more platforms; such as maybe the J31 as well as force multipliers like drones with data links, maybe better ground bases AD, longer range stand off weapons.


Matter solved.

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## Falcon26

There's no point in indicting J-10 as it's on the same level as JF-17 and J-31 is unproven system that even the Chinese don't want. This means PAF has to foot the bill in advancing this platform. Pakistan really has no choice but to induct Eurofighters even in very limited numbers and to incrementjy increase numbers. Pakistan can never beat India in numbers and inducting these Chinese/Russian junks the Indians are themselves now running away from us a self-defeating excercise.

LCA numbers will not reach 100 even in 2 decades to come.



Sarge said:


> You have completely avoided the following assets of PAF:
> 
> Rose upgraded Mirages for strike roles
> F-7PG as point defence asset
> SSW and its role behind enemy lines
> UCAV Burraq and its role as a strike asset
> use of trainer aircraft like MFI-17 or K-8 for combat operational purpose.
> Special mission aircrafts as force multipliers especially ELINT aircraft
> SAMs in use of PAF.



This ignores the fact india's ELINT and electronic systems are rapidly advancing thanks to its engagements with Israel and the West. Meanwhile Pakistan has to settle for Chinese knockoffs. It's about time Pakistanis get out of their 1980s mental loop.

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## A.P. Richelieu

wiseone2 said:


> Just curious
> is Pakistan a qualified country for arm exports ??


Pakistan can buy certain categories of weapons, like EriEye that are considered "defensive" only, but not Gripen.
If Boeing/SAAB wins T-X, then that maybe would be possible.
Too many military coups in the past.

Middle East (including Israel) is not a market, where Gripen is allowed to be sold.
Argentina, under the Junta would be the same.

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## wiseone2

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Pakistan can buy certain categories of weapons, like EriEye that are considered "defensive" only, but not Gripen.
> If Boeing/SAAB wins T-X, then that maybe would be possible.
> Too many military coups in the past.
> 
> Middle East (including Israel) is not a market, where Gripen is allowed to be sold.
> Argentina, under the Junta would be the same.



Thanks for the clarification

Erieye - a defensive weapon ?? That implies it is not a full fledged AWACS but a limited aerial surveillance platform
I had a discussion with another member on the Erieye.

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## A.P. Richelieu

wiseone2 said:


> Thanks for the clarification
> 
> Erieye - a defensive weapon ?? That implies it is not a full fledged AWACS but a limited aerial surveillance platform
> I had a discussion with another member on the Erieye.


No, it means it cannot be used to attack anyone or anything.
Passing information allowing others to perform offensive operations is OK.

Anti Tank missiles would be OK, assault rifles would not.

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## Signalian

Falcon26 said:


> This ignores the fact india's ELINT and electronic systems are rapidly advancing thanks to its engagements with Israel and the West. Meanwhile Pakistan has to settle for Chinese knockoffs. It's about time Pakistanis get out of their 1980s mental loop.


Update yourself.

The Elint/EW aircraft before AWACS doesnt use chinese systems. 
Pakistan uses Swedish AWCS systems alongwith chinese AWACS.
American systems are in use through P-3C.
Pakistan has recently shown interest in Russian EW systems.

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## wiseone2

A.P. Richelieu said:


> No, it means it cannot be used to attack anyone or anything.
> Passing information allowing others to perform offensive operations is OK.
> 
> Anti Tank missiles would be OK, assault rifles would not.


Strange classification
Thanks for the explanation


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## wiseone2

Sarge said:


> Update yourself.
> 
> The Elint/EW aircraft before AWACS doesnt use chinese systems.
> Pakistan uses Swedish AWCS systems alongwith chinese AWACS.
> American systems are in use through P-3C.
> Pakistan has recently shown interest in Russian EW systems.


P-3 are maritime aircraft
Indian Navy p-8 are replacement for p-3


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## drunken-monke

sparten said:


> Our JF17 are superior to every Indian plane except the MKI.
> The Block 50/52 and MLU F16 are superior to MKI.


Would you care to elaborate how JF 17 of better than anything India has apart from MKI and How F16 is better than MKI.. Please be rational in your comparison, with data and other stuff would help in matter..


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## Falcon26

Sarge said:


> Update yourself.
> 
> The Elint/EW aircraft before AWACS doesnt use chinese systems.
> Pakistan uses Swedish AWCS systems alongwith chinese AWACS.
> American systems are in use through P-3C.
> Pakistan has recently shown interest in Russian EW systems.



I am very well updated.

The Erieye are a credible systems but only the F-16s are configured to use them. The rest have to rely on ground stations which kills crucial response times during war. What use are the Erieye AWACS if a vast majority of your planes aren't directly connected to them?



drunken-monke said:


> Would you care to elaborate how JF 17 of better than anything India has apart from MKI and How F16 is better than MKI.. Please be rational in your comparison, with data and other stuff would help in matter..



A potent JF-17 with the right subsystems can easily take on and beat anything the IAF has and over friendly skies supported by air defense systems and AWACS can give the SU-30MKIs a run for their money. TBH the SU-30MKI are potent but not what they are made to be.The upgraded F-16s & Block 52++ are more than a match. India would have gone for more SU-derivatives if they were satisfied with them, especially with their low serviceability rates. Instead it switched gears and is now replacing its Russian systems with American and French ones. And why not? Time and again, vaunted Russian systems have proven to be duds during war.

This is why ongoing obsession of PAF fanboys on Russian fighter jets is fascinating. The Pakistanis are now eagerly cheering for weapon systems they have for generations rediculed Indians of buying.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> I am very well updated.
> 
> The Erieye are a credible systems but only the F-16s are configured to use them. The rest have to rely on ground stations which kills crucial response times during war. What use are the Erieye AWACS if a vast majority of your planes aren't directly connected to them?


I believe the Erieye AEW&C should be able to communicate with the JF-17s directly via Link-17. Remember, the Erieye isn't a NATO system and Saab itself offers a proprietary TDL should the customer ask for it. So the option to configure the Erieye for Link-17 and Link-16 is there. There's also COTS hardware that enable AEW&C to manage multiple TDL types. This is a common practice. For example, U.S. AEW&C manage Link-16, SADL, and MADL.

The tricky thing for the PAF isn't AEW&C to F-16 or JF-17 communication, but JF-17 to F-16 - and vice versa - communication. In other words, should the F-16's radar see something, it would need a GCI or AEW&C to receive that info via Link-16 and then relay it to JF-17s via Link-17.

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## SQ8

Falcon26 said:


> I am very well updated.
> 
> The Erieye are a credible systems but only the F-16s are configured to use them. The rest have to rely on ground stations which kills crucial response times during war. What use are the Erieye AWACS if a vast majority of your planes aren't directly connected to them?
> 
> 
> 
> A potent JF-17 with the right subsystems can easily take on and beat anything the IAF has and over friendly skies supported by air defense systems and AWACS can give the SU-30MKIs a run for their money. TBH the SU-30MKI are potent but not what they are made to be.The upgraded F-16s & Block 52++ are more than a match. India would have gone for more SU-derivatives if they were satisfied with them, especially with their low serviceability rates. Instead it switched gears and is now replacing its Russian systems with American and French ones. And why not? Time and again, vaunted Russian systems have proven to be duds during war.
> 
> This is why ongoing obsession of PAF fanboys on Russian fighter jets is fascinating. The Pakistanis are now eagerly cheering for weapon systems they have for generations rediculed Indians of buying.



The Erieye can communicate with the JF-17s and provide it a picture, it is the ZDK's that cant communicate with the F-16s.

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## hacker J

sparten said:


> Lets look at what the enemy currently has.
> 
> Our JF17 are superior to every Indian plane except the MKI.
> The Block 50/52 and MLU F16 are superior to MKI.
> 
> In the Air Defence role, the F16s, Thunder's and BVR mixed with F7's and all supported by AWACS can easily take care of any expected threats. The MKI only has limited strike capabilities in the first place.
> 
> In the strike role, the JF17, ROSE Mirage have Stand off weaponry which can enable them to hit Indian targets from distance with lesser exposure. F16 Block 50/52 and MLU jammers are pretty good too.
> 
> When the Rafael comes, the equation changes; a lot. That would require more platforms; such as maybe the J31 as well as force multipliers like drones with data links, maybe better ground bases AD, longer range stand off weapons.




jf 17 better than mig29 UPG and miraj 2000-5 keep dreaming bro untill block 3 comes you can't compair
f 16 block 50/52 are better in some aspects and worse at other so please don't assume things and i am being very honest


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> The Erieye can communicate with the JF-17s and provide it a picture, it is the ZDK's that cant communicate with the F-16s.


Is that because we couldn't get Link-16 terminals for the KE or difficulty in getting the ZDK03 sensor info to read on Link-16?

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Is that because we couldn't get Link-16 terminals for the KE or difficulty in getting the ZDK03 sensor info to read on Link-16?


Its because SAAB is eager to cooperate to get the info talking; the Americans are not.

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## Signalian

Falcon26 said:


> I am very well updated.
> 
> The Erieye are a credible systems but only the F-16s are configured to use them. The rest have to rely on ground stations which kills crucial response times during war. What use are the Erieye AWACS if a vast majority of your planes aren't directly connected to them?



Mate, seriously...*Update Yourself*

http://quwa.org/2016/04/05/link-17-pakistans-homegrown-data-link-system/

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I believe the Erieye AEW&C should be able to communicate with the JF-17s directly via Link-17. Remember, the Erieye isn't a NATO system and Saab itself offers a proprietary TDL should the customer ask for it. So the option to configure the Erieye for Link-17 and Link-16 is there. There's also COTS hardware that enable AEW&C to manage multiple TDL types. This is a common practice. For example, U.S. AEW&C manage Link-16, SADL, and MADL.
> 
> The tricky thing for the PAF isn't AEW&C to F-16 or JF-17 communication, but JF-17 to F-16 - and vice versa - communication. In other words, should the F-16's radar see something, it would need a GCI or AEW&C to receive that info via Link-16 and then relay it to JF-17s via Link-17.



It's a pleasant news to me that the JF-17s can directly communicate with the Erieyes. Thanks for the clarification.

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## sparten

hacker J said:


> jf 17 better than mig29 UPG and miraj 2000-5 keep dreaming bro untill block 3 comes you can't compair
> f 16 block 50/52 are better in some aspects and worse at other so please don't assume things and i am being very honest


Yes, easily.

You seem to be thinking that AF's fighters are like boxers who enter the ring fighting like pugalists and you can look at their measurables and decide which is better. That is not the way the world works. Air frames are designed for the tasks they have to face and undertake.

A JF17 in the air defense role when facing UPG and M2k5's is going to be loaded with BVR's and supported by AWACS. It has DSI inlets with L/O features, making it hard to see on radar. It will see them long before the enemy planes are aware its even there, and be able to fire and engage. It has comparable avionics as both.

In the strike role it is able to use stand off weapons to stay out of the engagement envelope (or only stay a short while). Unlike the enemy planes, the JF17 is able to easily switch from Air 2 Air back to Air to Ground on a strike mission which means it can fight its way through.

No Indian plane has that ability including the MKI.

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## Falcon26

Oscar said:


> The Erieye can communicate with the JF-17s and provide it a picture, it is the ZDK's that cant communicate with the F-16s.



Thanks for the correction.


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## Blue Marlin

DefenceSultan said:


> To counter IAF threat 2025:
> Rafael fighter 100+
> Su30mki 274+
> Lca 200
> Fgfa 50
> 
> PAF needs to be by 2025:
> F16 - 76
> J10B - 150
> Jf17 - 250
> J31 - 20
> 
> Looks better than
> PAF by 2025
> F16 -76
> Jf17 - 250


you forgot to mention the mk2 they [iaf] are upgrading.
also the 5th gen number are way too optimistic and the rafale too.

the fgfa has the most promise here as the russain already have the t-50 in lrip and nearing mass production.
the rafale...... there getting the first one in 18 months and all of them in 36. it 2016 nearing 2017. so india would get the first lot by q1/2018 and the last lot by just before 2020. then they would have to have an agreement on who would build the rest of them and how many of them would be built in france. as by that time they [dassault ] would be nearing completeing the order from france and dependant on orders from foreign clients.
god knows how long the negotiations would take.

the amca would enter service in 2025.

the f16's pakistan has are quiet old even after the mlu. sadly they will be reaching the end of their life. and a replacement is needed to replace them.

the jf-17 would reach 150 airframes by 2025. block 3' wont be going into production for another couple of years. 

if pakistan goes for the j-31 they would enter service by 2022/3 quiet easily.
but a stop gap is need and that can only be the typhoons.


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## sparten

Chances of UK selling us Typhoons is about 0.


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## Dr Shaheryar

LCA= 200. Wow that's going to be a news for me. You have 3 A/C which are under going O/C and within 2025, you will have 200. That's gr8. Keeping this in mind, I think Pakistan will have 350+ Jf-17. And assuming your assumptions for Indian acquisition Pakistan is not going to increase it's F-16 numbers. Man Indian's assume everything for themselves and the rest of world will remain behind them. That's really good news.


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## Dr Shaheryar

Pakistan currently has 90 JF-17 and by 2020 will have 200 JF-17's. And for next five years we will have no new aircraft.

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## NHUDA

DefenceSultan said:


> To counter IAF threat 2025:
> Rafael fighter 100+
> Su30mki 274+
> Lca 200
> Fgfa 50
> 
> PAF needs to be by 2025:
> F16 - 76
> J10B - 150
> Jf17 - 250
> J31 - 20
> 
> Looks better than
> PAF by 2025
> F16 -76
> Jf17 - 250



I think you are miscalculating the Future projection on Both sides (Expected & Probable)

To me the PAF in 2025 will look more like this ...

F16 - 76 + 125 (A lot of F-16 European Airlines will be Retiring thr Exisiting F-16 Fleet and in order to get a Stop Gap a very realistic (cost wise) approach would be to buy them and Refurbish / Upgrade)

Jf17 - 250+100 (We have 90ish Planes in 2016 in 9 years by the Existing Production Capacity of 16-18 we can add 150-160 Planes in Next 9 years and the yearly production capacity is expected to increase upto 24 if not 32 add in Chinese assembly in case we get any additional orders from abroad)

Mirage - 2000 (Couple of Squadrons- Second hand) UAE i doubt it but we can may be from Qatar, Egypt or Directly from france as Strategic Strike Option

SU-35 or Comparable Aircraft from China. Upon CPEC development and extension of Pakistan EEZ, Pakistan will eventually have to come out of its Single Engine jet Policy and do need a Strong Fighter to work as a Fighter to secure Far Stretched Frontier. (Although Cost is an issue here)

Also in order to not lag behind too much from modern Gen-5 development .. Pakistan will eventually Join Chinese or Turkish Gen-5 Development.

So to me a more realistic estimate (should, Would & Could be)
*F16 - 180-200
Jf17 - 350
Mirage 2000 - 2 Squadrons
Su-35 (or Comparable) - 2 Squadron*
Active development Participant of a Chinese / Turkish 5th Gen Fighter Plane.

This is STILL a very Optimistic estimate ... We may not go for Mirage .. May not Afford Su-35 & 5th Gen may not come in next 10 years ... but we DO NEED As many JF-17 we can produce & Need to Fish for F-16s who can easily be integrated into existing fleet !


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## Dr Shaheryar

Why waste time and money on F-16, when our own JF-17 3RD GENERATION will be at PAR or above the standards of F-16.

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## Army research

What paf needs quickly is another platform around 64 planes asap I think they should go for Chinese as they for the best price would be the deterrent to keep until 5 get arrive and until then participate in tfx and wait for Chinese 5 gen


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## Dr Shaheryar

Pakistan should go for J-15 or J-16 for at least 2 squadrons.


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## Michael Corleone

sparten said:


> Our JF17 are superior to every Indian plane except the MKI.
> The Block 50/52 and MLU F16 are superior to MKI.


And the migs. Mig 29 not the 21s


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## barbarosa

sparten said:


> Chances of UK selling us Typhoons is about 0.


UK need money if we have.


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## sparten

Why? F7PG with datalink (possible) or even a radio vector to AWACS can make a potent defensive weapon. In A 2 A combat the main issue is not just the weapon system and sensors, but the intercept. An attacking fighter has to to ensure that it remains outside the intercept envelope when it is dropping its ordinance, otherwise s/he faces the risk of getting a missile up his nose/***.

So an AWACS which sees a threat can vector an F7PG into a perfect position to intercept. If all goes well, the first inkling the enemy pilot will have that something is wrong is when his plane blows up around him. Even if he realises that something is amiss, he has to either jettison and run for it (as stated until the Rafael comes back into service, IAF jets do not have the capability to easily switch from A2G to A2G on the same sortie) or engage (and risk being hit by ground assets) or drop ordinance in a less than optimal fashion. 

The reverse is also true.


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## sparten

Sure, turn your search RADAR on. Announce where you are to the whole world. When attacking you are trying to avoid detection; not scream "shoot me". 

You are right about AWACS, the Indias will certainly use AWACS to support their own forces, OTH, you have a much larger Area and 3 (as opposed to 8 for us) AWACS.


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## Athen

sparten said:


> Sure, turn your search RADAR on. Announce where you are to the whole world. When attacking you are trying to avoid detection; not scream "shoot me".
> 
> You are right about AWACS, the Indias will certainly use AWACS to support their own forces, OTH, you have a much larger Area and 3 (as opposed to 8 for us) AWACS.


yes..Indeed! but Helping jets in enemy airspace will always be given higher priority than monitoring your airspace as SAMs can do the job, besides Phalcons can scan most of pakistan airspace while still staying in indian airspace(not talking about Two-front war).

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## Super Falcon

sparten said:


> Lets look at what the enemy currently has.
> 
> Our JF17 are superior to every Indian plane except the MKI.
> The Block 50/52 and MLU F16 are superior to MKI.
> 
> In the Air Defence role, the F16s, Thunder's and BVR mixed with F7's and all supported by AWACS can easily take care of any expected threats. The MKI only has limited strike capabilities in the first place.
> 
> In the strike role, the JF17, ROSE Mirage have Stand off weaponry which can enable them to hit Indian targets from distance with lesser exposure. F16 Block 50/52 and MLU jammers are pretty good too.
> 
> When the Rafael comes, the equation changes; a lot. That would require more platforms; such as maybe the J31 as well as force multipliers like drones with data links, maybe better ground bases AD, longer range stand off weapons.


Dear don't compare platform only just look ranges these iaf jets carry missile

IAF MISSILES
METEOR 220KM
ASRAAM 160KM
PYTHON 5 150 KM
PYTHON DERBY 120 KM
MICA 100 KM 
R 77 160 KM

PAF 
SD 10 140 KM
AIM 130 180 KM

so before our F 16 even fires missile IAF RAFALE and SU 30 Launched meteor so F 16 has to get in defensive mode And these will come in numbers too so we are lacking numbers and quality

Pakistani must buy SU 35 with good weapons package around 50

Or buy 50 Eurofighter Typhoon along with meteor AIM 132 and AIM 9X IRIS-T missiles too 

We are lacking lot in air war numbers are getting lower and technology also we are lissing

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## Jinn Baba

*Please help, I'm very confused. *Could someone please tell me if the Rafale is better than the MKI?  because for nearly a decade Indians have been telling us that the MKI is superior to every other aircraft in the world (perhaps on par with the F22) and no matter what we get it won't be good enough. But now we are being told that actually the Rafale is better  

So were Indians lying before? Are they lying now? Or have they always been habitual liers and we can't believe anything they say?

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## Joe Shearer

Jinn Baba said:


> *Please help, I'm very confused. *Could someone please tell me if the Rafale is better than the MKI?  because for nearly a decade Indians have been telling us that the MKI is superior to every other aircraft in the world (perhaps on par with the F22) and no matter what we get it won't be good enough. But now we are being told that actually the Rafale is better
> 
> So were Indians lying before? Are they lying now? Or have they always been habitual liers and we can't believe anything they say?



Different roles, different characteristics, different ways to use them. Both are outstanding planes.


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## Jinn Baba

Joe Shearer said:


> Different roles, different characteristics, different ways to use them. Both are outstanding planes.



Both are outstanding planes...yes! But which is superior in air combat? And which would you rate as the top 3 (in service) air superiority air craft in the world?



Athen said:


> arey baba... Why confuse?? JF-17 is better than all!!



Nahi year, I heard top is LCA followed by the starship enterprise

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## Joe Shearer

Jinn Baba said:


> Both are outstanding planes...yes! But which is superior in air combat? And which would you rate as the top 3 (in service) air superiority air craft in the world?
> 
> 
> 
> Nahi year, I heard top is LCA followed by the starship enterprise



There are two types of air combat. Which do you mean?


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## Athen

Jinn Baba said:


> Both are outstanding planes...yes! But which is superior in air combat? And which would you rate as the top 3 (in service) air superiority air craft in the world?
> 
> 
> 
> Nahi year, I heard top is LCA followed by the starship enterprise


rafale is a multi-role fighter not specialized air superiority fighter like Raptor or MKI 
in dog fights i personally believe MKI can beat rafale owing to its maneuverability and rafale will beat MKI in ground and BVR attack owing to its better sensor fusion. just a personal opinion!

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## Joe Shearer

Jinn Baba said:


> Both are outstanding planes...yes! But which is superior in air combat? And which would you rate as the top 3 (in service) air superiority air craft in the world?



You might like to look at this thread.

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-air-force-answer-to-emerging-threats.453582/



> Nahi year, I heard top is LCA followed by the starship enterprise


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## Mav3rick

Super Falcon said:


> RAFALE is processed with in 36 month india induct 36 rafale so ts time to go ahead
> 
> My guess is SU 35



SU-35 is not very likely. Perhaps an expedited J-31 in 5 years or so.......


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## Super Falcon

Mav3rick said:


> SU-35 is not very likely. Perhaps an expedited J-31 in 5 years or so.......


J 31 needs approx 7 to 8 years fully get inducted that much time we don't have we are loosing both quality and quantity in fast pace reminding you the Indian mode of war and India will induct rafale in 36 months time we are no where in air war balance of war shifting to India we must buy stop gap fighter jet

PAF has many holes no twin engine jet either 65 percent of aircraft are not capable for direct fight and against 4 to 1 ratio no chance for PAF


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## Pakistan First

DefenceSultan said:


> So i am baffled how Pak Air force plans to counter these emerging threats, i did read many times that Jf17 is enough to counter these threat because Jf17 block 3 will be a different class fighter but i think this is not a real good answer



Maybe PAF expects there to be no Indian threat by 2025. Non-veg food for thought.


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## YeBeWarned

First 3 days of War specially for Air force will be crucial .. it will highly depends on the moods of IAF and PAF as well , over the years the IAF was forced to believe that PAF is on back foot and will just be defending their Air space by any incursion from the enemy Air craft .. that Puts PAF in defensive position and on the mercy of IAF , to wait for their next Attack to retaliate or scramble their own to intercept .. but the History of PAF is full of doing things which is beyond their limits and put a shocking effect on enemy .. *one can be that PAF before IAF even think to launch a large scale Air Assault on PA target PAF can go in to launch their own strikes on desired targets* .. with help of Long range Guided Missiles , CM's under the Cover of SAM .. 

@Windjammer @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 is it possible that PAF can launch the the offensive against IAF targets after the first incursion by indians ?? do we have the Capability of doing such with minimum loss ?


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## Imran Khan

brother let me tell you

i am tired of these threads

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## CriticalThinker02

Falcon26 said:


> There's no point in indicting J-10 as it's on the same level as JF-17 and J-31 is unproven system that even the Chinese don't want. This means PAF has to foot the bill in advancing this platform. Pakistan really has no choice but to induct Eurofighters even in very limited numbers and to incrementjy increase numbers. Pakistan can never beat India in numbers and inducting these Chinese/Russian junks the Indians are themselves now running away from us a self-defeating excercise.
> 
> LCA numbers will not reach 100 even in 2 decades to come.
> 
> 
> 
> This ignores the fact india's ELINT and electronic systems are rapidly advancing thanks to its engagements with Israel and the West. Meanwhile Pakistan has to settle for Chinese knockoffs. It's about time Pakistanis get out of their 1980s mental loop.




TAI TFX, imagine what we will be able to achieve with a machine like that.


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## Taygibay

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> Reading your post brings me to this conclusion that a complete rebuilt facility is required for Mirage 2000's. What is the status of this? What little is known to me is that the last assembly unit was sold as scrap because it could not support the production of Rafales.



LOL Ace, you're gonna get me in trouble with the southern neighbours again
but here it goes :
The M2000 line doesn't exist anymore; it was dismantled when the Rafale be-
-gan full production. It was offered immediately to the Indians that had the MRCA
on the stove then. Even though the MRCA was borderline a way to procure more
Mirage 2000 ( Kargil era, let's remember ), the logical Indians said no because ...
...
the LCA was supposed to be ready soon and twice as good!

​You know the rest : by the time the MRCA had become the MMRCA, Dassault
had been forced to close that line and replaced the M2K with the Rafale in its offer.

But if one remembers, that is the same set of conditions that gave the PAC/PAF 
its Mirages III & 5. The last acquired were incredibly cheap because its line had
been closed too so that sellers could not maintain the planes.

Which is why I said that -If anyone can, Pakistan can.
All Mirage 2000 have incredibly strong builts and last.

Just a bit of concern on hearing Indus Falcon and you talk of Rafale N.
It doesn't exist although it was supposed to. That was the designation for the naval
two-seater, mates! Too costly, was dropped in development.

If you guys mean the Rafale that carries nukes, all Raffys can even if we use only Bs
for that mission in AdlA.

Rafale A - demonstrator
Rafale B - AF 2 seater
Rafale C - AF single seater
Rafale M - Navy ( all 1 seat )
The M2000 N exists and some 40-60 may be available by 2020 as I said earlier.

Have a great day both and all, Tay.

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## iPhone

Imran Khan said:


> brother let me tell you
> 
> i am tired of these threads


Why? These are very informative topics with great information to educate the regular folk like myself. I love going through these threads as a silent participant.


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## A.P. Richelieu

wiseone2 said:


> Strange classification
> Thanks for the explanation


Not really, an assault rifle is useful in a riot situation.
You would not use an Anti-Tank missile vs an angry crowd.

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## Asifkamal

What ppl do,t get the idea is... In 1983 we got F16 and that have us technological edge over india till next 20.years at least. Still it's a horror to Indians, just like I imran khan was a horror to azharuddin in 1985 mini world cup(some ppl may have seen that match)'. Even stories from his seniors of 1982 Imran khan were enough for him. Now we need high tech aircraft. Come on, Jf17 can never become such,a thing. It can,t even match Grippen in future. J31 .. who has seen it?? It's time to purchase 24 second hand eurofighters from Italy or j16 from China. Least is J10c. What Mastan khan was trying to tell was, try something new

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## Imran Khan

iPhone said:


> Why? These are very informative topics with great information to educate the regular folk like myself. I love going through these threads as a silent participant.


but at the end there is nothing

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## wiseone2

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Not really, an assault rifle is useful in a riot situation.
> You would not use an Anti-Tank missile vs an angry crowd.



governments with a code of conduct might not use anti-tank weapons on an angry crowd



Asifkamal said:


> What ppl do,t get the idea is... In 1983 we got F16 and that have us technological edge over india till next 20.years at least. Still it's a horror to Indians, just like I imran khan was a horror to azharuddin in 1985 mini world cup(some ppl may have seen that match)'. Even stories from his seniors of 1982 Imran khan were enough for him. Now we need high tech aircraft. Come on, Jf17 can never become such,a thing. It can,t even match Grippen in future. J31 .. who has seen it?? It's time to purchase 24 second hand eurofighters from Italy or j16 from China. Least is J10c. What Mastan khan was trying to tell was, try something new



The F-16 acquisition was nullified by IAF acquisition of Mirage-2000 and MiG-29


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## ZEYA

there is only one answer for *pakistan air force* is _NOTHING IS COMING EXCEP_T*J-10 B OR C*


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## Asifkamal

No. F16 acquisition was never nullified by mirage 2000 or mig29. Mirage 2000 look down capabilities were not up to the standard and mig29 was just point defence air superiority fighter. Even now F16 is called su30 beater


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## Ultima Thule

Super Falcon said:


> Dear don't compare platform only just look ranges these iaf jets carry missile
> 
> IAF MISSILES
> METEOR 220KM
> ASRAAM 160KM
> PYTHON 5 150 KM
> PYTHON DERBY 120 KM
> MICA 100 KM
> R 77 160 KM
> 
> PAF
> SD 10 140 KM
> AIM 130 180 KM
> 
> so before our F 16 even fires missile IAF RAFALE and SU 30 Launched meteor so F 16 has to get in defensive mode And these will come in numbers too so we are lacking numbers and quality
> 
> Pakistani must buy SU 35 with good weapons package around 50
> 
> Or buy 50 Eurofighter Typhoon along with meteor AIM 132 and AIM 9X IRIS-T missiles too
> 
> We are lacking lot in air war numbers are getting lower and technology also we are lissing


Sir your information about missile are wrong, METEOR range is not 220KM but slightly above *100KM*,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_(missile) and ASRAAM is not BVR its a short range WVR missile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASRAAM:hitwall: PYTHON 5 is also not BVR its WVR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(missile):hitwall: DERBY is MRAAM is not long range air to air missile range is *50 KM*
MICA is also MRAAM not a BVRAAM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICA_(missile):hitwall: and you are only right about R 77 with range of 200 KM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-77:p: and you are also not correct about PAF Misslie SD-10 has two version SD-10 which has a range of *80 KM* and SD-10A which has range of *110 KM*, their no air to air missile called AIM 130 sir may be you are talking about AIM 120 AMRAAM but we not have *(180 KM) C-7 *but instead we have *(105 KM) C-5*
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM *so with due all respect you are all wrong about those missile ranges btw what is your source sir please send me a links

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## ZEYA

http://www.asian-defence.net/2014/02/j-10c-may-be-able-to-surpass-us-and-eu.html
nice article hope pakistan will find sth from here


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## Super Falcon

pakistanipower said:


> Sir your information about missile are wrong, METEOR range is not 220KM but slightly above *100KM*,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_(missile) and ASRAAM is not BVR its a short range WVR missile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASRAAM:hitwall: PYTHON 5 is also not BVR its WVR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(missile):hitwall: DERBY is MRAAM is not long range air to air missile range is *50 KM*
> MICA is also MRAAM not a BVRAAM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICA_(missile):hitwall: and you are only right about R 77 with range of 200 KM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-77:p: and you are also not correct about PAF Misslie SD-10 has two version SD-10 which has a range of *80 KM* and SD-10A which has range of *110 KM*, their no air to air missile called AIM 130 sir may be you are talking about AIM 120 AMRAAM but we not have *(180 KM) C-7 *but instead we have *(105 KM) C-5*
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM *so with due all respect you are all wrong about those missile ranges btw what is your source sir please send me a links


Thank you for correction but with meteor india has edge and with Python 5 and also R 77 well above range what we have

SD 10 has max 120
Aim 120 has 160 to 180 max

So india has three better ranged missile in numbers we don't stand a chance either way


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## Ultima Thule

Super Falcon said:


> Thank you for correction but with meteor india has edge and with Python 5 and also R 77 well above range what we have
> 
> SD 10 has max 120
> Aim 120 has 160 to 180 max
> 
> So india has three better ranged missile in numbers we don't stand a chance either way


*AIM 120 (C-5) that PAF variant range is 105 KM* and as for other variants like C-7 has a range of 160 to 180 KM


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## Indus Falcon

Arsalan said:


> He was talking about detecting a stealth plane dear, not the spec range.



Sir, I'm quite aware of what he was saying, and my reply was in reference to that.

EF's publicly stated range of it's PIRATE (Passive InfraRed Airborne Track Equipment) system is 90km. And since PIRATE was inducted technology has been evolving.






Here are pics of stealth aircrafts via IRST

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## Super Falcon

pakistanipower said:


> *AIM 120 (C-5) that PAF variant range is 105 KM* and as for other variants like C-7 has a range of 160 to 180 KM


So we lack even further such a pathetic think tank PAF has no future thinking 

India is miles away in number and quality


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## wiseone2

Taygibay said:


> LOL Ace, you're gonna get me in trouble with the southern neighbours again
> but here it goes :
> The M2000 line doesn't exist anymore; it was dismantled when the Rafale be-
> -gan full production. It was then offered to the Indians that had the MRCA on
> the stove then. Even though the MRCA was borderline a way to procure more
> Mirage 2000 ( Kargil era, let's remember ) the logical Indians said no because
> ...
> the LCA was supposed to be ready soon and twice as good!
> 
> ​You know the rest : by the time the MRCA had become the MMRCA, Dassault
> had been forced to close that line and replaced the M2K with the Rafale in its offer.
> 
> But if one remembers, that is the same set of conditions that gave the PAC/PAF
> its Mirages III & 5. The last acquired were incredibly cheap because its line had
> been closed too so that sellers could not maintain the planes.
> 
> Which is why I said that -If anyone can, Pakistan can.
> All Mirage 2000 have incredibly strong builts and last.
> 
> Just a bit of concern on hearing Indus Falcon and you talk of Rafale N.
> It doesn't exist although it was supposed to. That was the designation for the naval
> two-seater, mates! Too costly, was dropped in development.
> 
> If you guys mean the Rafale that carries nukes, all Raffys can even if we use only Bs
> for that mission in AdlA.
> 
> Rafale A - demonstrator
> Rafale B - AF 2 seater
> Rafale C - AF single seater
> Rafale M - Navy ( all 1 seat )
> The M2000 N exists and some 40-60 may be available by 2020 as I said earlier.
> 
> Have a great day both and all, Tay.


it is not too late for Rafales if the French agree

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## A.P. Richelieu

wiseone2 said:


> governments with a code of conduct might not use anti-tank weapons on an angry crowd



No, the modern Anti-Missile is not ideal for breaking up crowds, due to shaped charge HEAT warhead.
It is also very costly.
The Javelin is $246,000 a piece. I would court martial a soldier that used that to break up a crowd.

The AT-4 recoiless anti tank weapon is different. That is a no-no for the Middle East.

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## hacker J

sparten said:


> Yes, easily.
> 
> You seem to be thinking that AF's fighters are like boxers who enter the ring fighting like pugalists and you can look at their measurables and decide which is better. That is not the way the world works. Air frames are designed for the tasks they have to face and undertake.
> 
> A JF17 in the air defense role when facing UPG and M2k5's is going to be loaded with BVR's and supported by AWACS. It has DSI inlets with L/O features, making it hard to see on radar. It will see them long before the enemy planes are aware its even there, and be able to fire and engage. It has comparable avionics as both.
> 
> In the strike role it is able to use stand off weapons to stay out of the engagement envelope (or only stay a short while). Unlike the enemy planes, the JF17 is able to easily switch from Air 2 Air back to Air to Ground on a strike mission which means it can fight its way through.
> 
> No Indian plane has that ability including the MKI.



1st I am not saying anything about AF fighters being boxers if jf 17 is used for defence(which you always reject) then upgs and mk2s on a strike mission will be escorted either by UPGs or by MKIs and as far as AWACS is considered that will be considered I was just talking about plane to plane comparision not war, in war indian awacs, mkis which can serve as mini AWACS and stand off weapons will be on indian side as well and don't forget indian MKI's, UPGs, mk2s, tejas, 21 bisons have full fledged or limited bvr capability okay,
Now agreed LERX intakes makes plane a bit less observable but no that staelthy to escape radars all together, 2nd MKIs , upgraded mig 29s and mk2s all have capability to switch from air to air mode to air to ground mode thats why they are multirole please upgrade that information.

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## wiseone2

A.P. Richelieu said:


> No, the modern Anti-Missile is not ideal for breaking up crowds, due to shaped charge HEAT warhead.
> It is also very costly.
> The Javelin is $246,000 a piece. I would court martial a soldier that used that to break up a crowd.
> 
> The AT-4 recoiless anti tank weapon is different. That is a no-no for the Middle East.


javelins are expensive
there are other cheap anti-tank missiles on the market


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## Mav3rick

Super Falcon said:


> J 31 needs approx 7 to 8 years fully get inducted that much time we don't have we are loosing both quality and quantity in fast pace reminding you the Indian mode of war and India will induct rafale in 36 months time we are no where in air war balance of war shifting to India we must buy stop gap fighter jet
> 
> PAF has many holes no twin engine jet either 65 percent of aircraft are not capable for direct fight and against 4 to 1 ratio no chance for PAF



If you speak strictly in regards to loss in quality and quantity then we lost both in the past 15 years. While IAF inducted the highly capable SU-30MKI, which will soon be upgraded to Super MKI, we are stuck on Block 52+ for 18 and Block 50 for some 60 F-16's in addition to JF-17 which still has some way to go.

Our dawn and our sunset has been the F-16 which would no doubt still be a considerable asset if upgraded to Block 60+ with AESA radars and in quantity exceeding atleast 150.......neither is going to happen and so PAF probably has lost the battle before it even began.

I can only hope for a challenging J-31.

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## Arsalan

Indus Falcon said:


> Sir, I'm quite aware of what he was saying, and my reply was in reference to that.
> 
> EF's publicly stated range of it's PIRATE (Passive InfraRed Airborne Track Equipment) system is 90km. And since PIRATE was inducted technology has been evolving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are pics of stealth aircrafts via IRST


Bro you are still missing the point. He was stating 50Km for stealth planes!!! Not the announced 90km range of IRST. However the thing is that IRST will prove to be much more effective against stealth and jamming as compared to radars.

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## Taygibay

wiseone2 said:


> it is not too late for Rafales if the French agree



So unlikely, sadly! Suppose Pakistan asks for Rafales.
Let's be wild and imagine the number is 60. Hearing of
it, GoI offers to buy twice as much for exclusivity. They
thus go up to about 180 ACs which is their need anyhow
and Pakistan still gets none.

That's one immense advantage of a deal with local prod :
it gives you more leverage on sales in your vicinity.

Good day to you, Tay.

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## A.P. Richelieu

wiseone2 said:


> javelins are expensive
> there are other cheap anti-tank missiles on the market


Still not cost effective


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## iby32

We g


sparten said:


> Sure, turn your search RADAR on. Announce where you are to the whole world. When attacking you are trying to avoid detection; not scream "shoot me".
> 
> You are right about AWACS, the Indias will certainly use AWACS to support their own forces, OTH, you have a much larger Area and 3 (as opposed to 8 for us) AWACS.


 we got 6 awacs 3 saab n 3 y8 shinaxi


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## wiseone2

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Still not cost effective


it is more expensive than machine guns



Taygibay said:


> So unlikely, sadly! Suppose Pakistan asks for Rafales.
> Let's be wild and imagine the number is 60. Hearing of
> it, GoI offers to buy twice as much for exclusivity. They
> thus go up to about 180 ACs which is their need anyhow
> and Pakistan still gets none.
> 
> That's one immense advantage of a deal with local prod :
> it gives you more leverage on sales in your vicinity.
> 
> Good day to you, Tay.



you will make India broke
120 x $200 = $24 billion

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## Taygibay

wiseone2 said:


> you will make India broke
> 120 x $200 = $24 billion



LOLOLOL Those made in India won't cost as much and even for a re-buy,
the lead-in costs will be immensely smaller.

Lead-in costs are sums that allow the buyer to make proper use of its acquisition.
Think of your car or bike and the special tool kit you bought for maintenance. If 
you buy another car of the same model, you don't need nor buy another kit, right?
So those go away at least in part. You likely will not spend as much to adapt bases
either if enough planes are available as they'll be distributed all around.
You won't pay twice for the integration of foreign weapons and systems nor for the
definition of an Indian standard nor for ToT and nor yet for training grease monkeys
& pilots?

These sort of things are one-offs or buys spaced a long time apart over the service life.
They almost disappear after you complete the initial deal.

Good day, Tay.

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## wiseone2

Taygibay said:


> LOLOLOL Those made in India won't cost as much and even for a re-buy,
> the lead-in costs will be immensely smaller.
> 
> Lead-in costs are sums that allow the buyer to make proper use of its acquisition.
> Think of your car or bike and the special tool kit you bought for maintenance. If
> you buy another car of the same model, you don't need nor buy another kit, right?
> So those go away at least in part. You likely will not spend as much to adapt bases
> either if enough planes are available as they'll be distributed all around.
> You won't pay twice for the integration of foreign weapons and systems nor for the
> definition of an Indian standard nor for ToT and nor yet for training grease monkeys
> & pilots?
> 
> These sort of things are one-offs or buys spaced a long time apart over the service life.
> They almost disappear after you complete the initial deal.
> 
> Good day, Tay.


I understand your argument
120 x 125 million = $15 billion instead of $24 billion
It is a large sum

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## Indus Falcon

Arsalan said:


> Bro you are still missing the point. He was stating 50Km for stealth planes!!! Not the announced 90km range of IRST. However the thing is that IRST will prove to be much more effective against stealth and jamming as compared to radars.


Sir, why don't you speak to khafee and ask him how the desert vipers have run circles around the f22 with a decade+ old IRST system.

Best Regards

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## Super Falcon

Mav3rick said:


> If you speak strictly in regards to loss in quality and quantity then we lost both in the past 15 years. While IAF inducted the highly capable SU-30MKI, which will soon be upgraded to Super MKI, we are stuck on Block 52+ for 18 and Block 50 for some 60 F-16's in addition to JF-17 which still has some way to go.
> 
> Our dawn and our sunset has been the F-16 which would no doubt still be a considerable asset if upgraded to Block 60+ with AESA radars and in quantity exceeding atleast 150.......neither is going to happen and so PAF probably has lost the battle before it even began.
> 
> I can only hope for a challenging J-31.


Yes but F. 16 with AESA forget it chapter is closed PAF is way behind it has to start from scratch

J 31 Needs 10 years to mature we don't have time war is imminent with Indians nature of thumping drums of war and irresponsible people like modi in govt we must not be at risk remember if we have no balance in power we are going to complete destruction as we use our last resort nukes which is not good better we buy credible fighter jet west has to understand if they won't help Pakistan to keep balance of power at par with India than no one is going to be winner either

SU 35
Eurofighter are the main contender to keep balance in power between PAF and iaf both are available to sell who ever wish to pay and PAF has to decide now

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## SQ8

Indus Falcon said:


> Sir, I'm quite aware of what he was saying, and my reply was in reference to that.
> 
> EF's publicly stated range of it's PIRATE (Passive InfraRed Airborne Track Equipment) system is 90km. And since PIRATE was inducted technology has been evolving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are pics of stealth aircrafts via IRST



Those picture are from a Rapier SAM sitting on the ground during an airshow.

Very different situation in the air.


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## Indus Falcon

Oscar said:


> Those picture are from a Rapier SAM sitting on the ground during an airshow.
> 
> Very different situation in the air.






Even this?

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## Taimur Khurram

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Cost is not only Issue, Even to get such high price Eurofighter , we need approval from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain as this is multinational project. If any country declines due to indian lobby, then we can't get hands on eurofighters.
> Our only option available is J10 C .
> While Due to recent relation with U.S.A , it is very difficult to get griphen due to its U.S.A engine.
> 
> We can't get hands on above fighters unless we offer better price than face value and excellent relation with those countries.



We are in talks for Su-35's.


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## SQ8

No we are not.


dsr478 said:


> We are in talks for Su-35's.

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## Taygibay

wiseone2 said:


> $15 billion instead of $24 billion
> It is a large sum



Yes. _Si vis Pacem parabellum_ is always costly and war costlier still.
But us humans are so inept at peace that it's unavoidable!

Sorry, Tay.

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## wiseone2

Taygibay said:


> Yes. _Si vis Pacem parabellum_ is always costly and war costlier still.
> But us humans are so inept at peace that it's unavoidable!
> 
> Sorry, Tay.


the only hope is that rafale scares adversaries away

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## Khafee

Indus Falcon said:


> Sir, why don't you speak to khafee and ask him how the desert vipers have run circles around the f22 with a decade+ old IRST system.
> 
> Best Regards



Sir, What happens at Dhafra, stays at Dhafra

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## Mav3rick

wiseone2 said:


> the only hope is that rafale scares adversaries away



It will.....no doubt. Unless the adversary gets something scarier

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## Arsalan

Indus Falcon said:


> Sir, why don't you speak to khafee and ask him how the desert vipers have run circles around the f22 with a decade+ old IRST system.
> 
> Best Regards


Well i have read about that event as well, it was reported a few years back as well as far as i remember. *At least that was when it first happened and was reported. *
Again, there is more to it than meets the eye. Again i might not go into a lot of details but just to drop a hint, IRST are the among the most effective systems against jamming, stealth in a plane is incorporated by a mix of jamming, RCS reduction and heat signature masking.  Thus the different in specified range and the detection range against stealth. 50Km is still more than enough to run circles around a plane dear. 
I hope you understand what i was trying to point out. @Khafee will also be able to confirm that there is some difference in detection range for stealth and non-stealth specially when heat masking is being used. That is the difference originally pointed out and what started this little argument. Anyway, it was quite informative and enlightening. Thank you.

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> Sir, What happens at Dhafra, stays at Dhafra



Long time no see Sir, good to hear from you. How's going.

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## Taimur Khurram

Oscar said:


> No we are not.



Oh. Must've made a mistake then. 

We need to get them though, and I hope we do.


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## Taygibay

Khafee said:


> Sir, What happens at Dhafra, stays at Dhafra



Well, not always ...





Tay.
From here : http://www.portail-aviation.com/2013/06/fox-2-gun-kill-un-f-22-raptor-dans-la.html​

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## Khafee

Taygibay said:


> Well, not always ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tay.
> From here : http://www.portail-aviation.com/2013/06/fox-2-gun-kill-un-f-22-raptor-dans-la.html​


You took the bait. Thank You.



Arsalan said:


> Well i have read about that event as well, it was reported a few years back as well as far as i remember. *At least that was when it first happened and was reported. *
> Again, there is more to it than meets the eye. Again i might not go into a lot of details but just to drop a hint, IRST are the among the most effective systems against jamming, stealth in a plane is incorporated by a mix of jamming, RCS reduction and heat signature masking.  Thus the different in specified range and the detection range against stealth. 50Km is still more than enough to run circles around a plane dear.
> I hope you understand what i was trying to point out. @Khafee will also be able to confirm that there is some difference in detection range for stealth and non-stealth specially when heat masking is being used. That is the difference originally pointed out and what started this little argument. Anyway, it was quite informative and enlightening. Thank you.


Due to the nature of my job, I cannot reveal too much. Nonetheless Indus Falcon is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I hope you got the message.

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## SQ8

Indus Falcon said:


> Even this?



Yup, the effectiveness of IRST as a search tool depends really on the environment and scenario. Airshow, WVR scenarios dont count as search parameters when we are discussing stealth jets. 

The F-35's DAS is the most superb system there is, yet it requires its networked nature to operate effectively. 

What it does assist in against stealth jets, and the "stories" of Dhafra are what also helps the EF and Rafale to track the F-22 during a dogfight. Since radar doesnt really work against the F-22 even at such ranges, their IRST takes over as the primary sensor for providing tracking.

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## Thermobaric

@Taygibay 
if you don't mind, Your name sounds Turkish but you are from France and lives in Pakistan


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## Indus Falcon

Oscar said:


> Yup, the effectiveness of IRST as a search tool depends really on the environment and scenario. Airshow, WVR scenarios dont count as search parameters when we are discussing stealth jets.
> 
> The F-35's DAS is the most superb system there is, yet it requires its networked nature to operate effectively.
> 
> What it does assist in against stealth jets, and the "stories" of Dhafra are what also helps the EF and Rafale to track the F-22 during a dogfight. Since radar doesnt really work against the F-22 even at such ranges, their IRST takes over as the primary sensor for providing tracking.



Agree with everything, very eloquently put.

Best Regards



Khafee said:


> You took the bait. Thank You.
> 
> 
> Due to the nature of my job, I cannot reveal too much. Nonetheless Indus Falcon is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I hope you got the message.



Bro, Thank You for your kind words.

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## MastanKhan

@Indus Falcon

Hi,

We were talking about the steup of the U S air force and its 5th gen strike setup---and you mentioned about the Rafale / BLK60 taking out the F22.

So---today I am sitting outside the house---stripping the paint off door moulding that I had taken off earlier today with paint stripper---and I started thinking about what you wrote---.

There was an excercise---it ended---the parties went their own ways---the U S declares success---the french reported the Rafale had tagged the F22---.

I have come to the conclusion that the U S A F " duped " the french---I fully believe that the F22 pilot intentionally underperformed---it did the same against the german and everybody else---.

The american military is master of deception---it toys around with the militaries of other nations as it seems fit---.

The americans are firm believers of deceiving their best and closest allies lest one of them stands against them one day as a nation---or an individual gone hostile.

Put the opponent on a pedestal so high---like they did to the Japanese in the 80's---gave them enough rope---and 28 years down the road---and they are still in shambles..

The paint stripper gel is very acidic---burns right thru the rubber gloves and the sting is very painful to the skin---thus---might have activated some brain cells in the gray matter to work overtime.

I hope that you take my comments real serious. @Khafee

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## Taygibay

Khafee said:


> You took the bait. Thank You.



You're welcome my friend; it was dragging on. 



Thermobaric said:


> @Taygibay
> if you don't mind, Your name sounds Turkish but you are from France and lives in Pakistan


Yeah, awfully complex, isn't it? If you'd know me, you'd see how fitting!
I wouldn't mind by the way but it's too complicated and drawn out to repeat here.
Remember France and Pakistan and you'll be fine. Read you soon.



MastanKhan said:


> I have come to the conclusion that the U S A F " duped " the french---I fully believe that the F22 pilot intentionally underperformed---it did the same against the german and everybody else---.



Ah, mate? There's nothing wrong with your believing this
but it is not a realistic position to hold. That on average, the USA
try to withhold full capacity so others think them feebler is evident
because all nations do so in international exercises. No one wants
to reveal operational details or the precise limit of their systems but
this simply cannot carry through to BFM merges.

Did you listen to that video above? Does it sound like that pilot is
faking his effort and the exertion? Do you really think F-22 tech makes
pulling 8Gs easier by much? That the American pilot is eating his McDo?

It just doesn't work that way. First pilots are more important than machines.
As long as both fighters are endowed for similar jobs ( not A-10 vs C-130 ),
the talent will shine through. That's why on such exercises, pilots' comments
often point out that Pakistanis are real good even though their planes aren't top.
In the ATLC mainframe when that dogfight took place, the French commander
pointed out after his Rafales wiped out Typhoons that their jockeys were young
for example.

That points to -Second which is that training is a serious business. You don't want
to train pilots to take it easy and even less than that to lose! Every training should
end in success to boost the psychological fortitude necessary for the long run.
When defeat does come, it is analyzed to refrain it from ever happening again.
And yet for training to work, losses have to be incurred at times or the exercise
was just not hard enough to teach anything?

The Raptor lost on occasion in BFM inside America, remember? Because that old
guy in the F/A-18E or G or other packs experience beyond his noobish high-falutin
opponent's expectations. The kid will be debriefed hard by his CO and next time ...
US Aggressors squadrons don't play possum. Train as you play. ETC

Great day all, Tay.

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## Hassan Guy

jupiter2007 said:


> Any new plateform purchase (Su35/J16x/Typhoon) is going to be for long term.


We could order a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier from France for the cost of barely 1 squadron of the Typhoon

F-16 Block 70 is best choice


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## jupiter2007

Hassan Guy said:


> We could order a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier from France for the cost of barely 1 squadron of the Typhoon
> 
> F-16 Block 70 is best choice



Hope you are joking about the aircraft carrier....
Pakistan doesn't need any carrier. We need more corrvette and larger frigate.


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## Zain Malik

Hassan Guy said:


> We could order a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier from France for the cost of barely 1 squadron of the Typhoon
> 
> F-16 Block 70 is best choice


I can understand at which level you think...!!

Plz don't express your assumptions bcz they are meaningless...
Nuclear powered AC... Oh God ... lolz

By the way America is not giving you further F-16 blk 52 and you are talking about blk 70...


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## Hassan Guy

Zain Malik said:


> I can understand at which level you think...!!
> 
> Plz don't express your assumptions bcz they are meaningless...
> Nuclear powered AC... Oh God ... lolz
> 
> By the way America is not giving you further F-16 blk 52 and you are talking about blk 70...


Clearly you didn't read what i said, please read the comment carefully before you spew that kind of "lolz" shit at me
All I said was that the COST of barely even 1 squadron of the Typhoon would be that of a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier.

As far as the F-16 goes
Now the US is willing to sell over the PAF some F-16's if our own funds can cover the costs (which apparently couldn't the last time).


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## Zain Malik

Hassan Guy said:


> Typhoon would be that of a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier.


do you really think it is gonna be that easy.. and why we induct Ac if there is no need ..
Dhakke se hareedo ge...


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## Hassan Guy

Zain Malik said:


> do you really think it is gonna be that easy.. and why we induct Ac if there is no need ..
> Dhakke se hareedo ge...


All im saying is that it should probably be considered, the Indians will have 3


----------



## Zain Malik

Hassan Guy said:


> All im saying is that it should probably be considered, the Indians will have 3


Thats their need because India cover a large ocean area.. our navy can fly jets fron karachi or gawadar..

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## Hassan Guy

The "new" Aircraft for PAF has to be F-16SV Block 70. I don't see any other possible alternative.


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## Indus Falcon

Hassan Guy said:


> We could order a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier from France for the cost of barely 1 squadron of the Typhoon
> 
> F-16 Block 70 is best choice


Even the UAE which has ordered the latest Blk62 does not have Blk70. It is nothing less than the imagination of the media which you keep parroting. Now would be a good time to stop.

Secondly, PAF cannot even get "V" and you talk about Blk70/62. Why?

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## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> The "new" Aircraft for PAF has to be F-16SV Block 70. I don't see any other possible alternative.


 get out of your fairy-tales and fantasy world

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## wasileo80

Ankit Kumar said:


> Can you list the squadron they are assigned too?
> 
> 
> 
> The mirages as claimed are not so bad. I can say pretty surely that they have constant spares support and are capable. They will be replaced at their own pace.
> 
> Not very far back in history you all bought the whole Libyan fleet. That has kept the fleet going.


The F-16 Squadrons are 
1- No. 5 Squadron (F-16s C/D Block 52)
2- No. 9 Squadron (F-16s A/B Block 15 EMLU)
3- No. 11 Squadron (F-16s A/B Block 15 EMLU)
4- No. 19 Squadron (F-16s A/B Block 15 ADF)
5- CCS Squadron (May be 4-6 F16s)

Total no. of F-16s in PAF inventory is 76 (31+14+13+18).

JF-17s Squadrons 
1- No. 16 Squadron (Block 1)
2- No. 26 Squadron (Block 1)
3- No. 2 Squadron (Block 1+2)
4- No. 14 Squadron (Block 2)
5- CSS Squadron (6 Block 1)

Total number of JF-17s are around 80 in service and some more Block 2 are in testing and evaluation.

Total no. of F-7s are around 120 including F-7P and F-7PGs

Total no. of Mirages are around 130 to 140 including Mirage Rose I, II and III upgrades.


----------



## araz

Hassan Guy said:


> All im saying is that it should probably be considered, the Indians will have 3


ACs will need a whole lot of support for them to function in ancillary ships, Subs, and supply boats, The costs are too high and we dont have blue water aspirations in any case. So what India does does not necessarily have to be replicated just because they have one. We will do enough to keep a rdeterrent value but any more will bankrupt us.
A

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## Hassan Guy

Indus Falcon said:


> Even the UAE which has ordered the latest Blk62 does not have Blk70. It is nothing less than the imagination of the media which you keep parroting. Now would be a good time to stop.
> 
> Secondly, PAF cannot even get "V" and you talk about Blk70/62. Why?


Remember India just order 2 squadrons of the rafale, I don't see any other alternative (su-35 may be possible) But an F-16 Block 70(even 60) would be a good pick. I don't see you "parroting" any better ideas, if not then leave.



pakistanipower said:


> get out of your fairy-tales and fantasy world


Sure maybe we should order some more F-7's? Got any better ideas? An F-16 Block 70 (or even 60) would be best counter to the Rafale, It would be a better option over the Su-35



araz said:


> ACs will need a whole lot of support for them to function in ancillary ships, Subs, and supply boats, The costs are too high and we dont have blue water aspirations in any case. So what India does does not necessarily have to be replicated just because they have one. We will do enough to keep a rdeterrent value but any more will bankrupt us.
> A


Thailand operates an Aircraft Carrier, their defence budget is actually lower the ours.


----------



## !eon

Hassan Guy said:


> We could order a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier from France for the cost of barely 1 squadron of the Typhoon
> 
> F-16 Block 70 is best choice


I think you don't remember US sanctions on Pakistan in 90s.

If bitten second time from same hole, it would be mother of all blunders.

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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> Due to the nature of my job, I cannot reveal too much. Nonetheless Indus Falcon is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I hope you got the message.


Lolz,
yea i got the message and have some idea already. The thing is that the argument is about IRST range and whether it will remain the SAME against Stealth Planes, especially the ones using heat masking techniques and i do not thik there will be any disagreement there. Or you think that a stated range of, for example, 80Km will be EXACTLY same against the planes using heat signature masking techniques? 

No hard feelings @Indus Falcon , i appreciate you inputs and respect your views. It is just that i do not see how they can be the same.


----------



## Hassan Guy

!eon said:


> I think you don't remember US sanctions on Pakistan in 90s.
> 
> If bitten second time from same hole, it would be mother of all blunders.


Donald trump is becoming president, maybe relations get better


----------



## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> Sure maybe we should order some more F-7's? Got any better ideas? An F-16 Block 70 (or even 60) would be best counter to the Rafale, It would be a better option over the Su-35


what about J-10C, J-11B and D


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## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> what about J-10C, J-11B and D


J-11 aren't exported because of the Russian engines and well.......the entire design, not to mention India has 270 of the MKI's
And I've heard our Air Marshals are not very fond of the J-10, we would have had it along time ago but the PAF wanted the F-16 Block 52+


----------



## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> J-11 aren't exported because of the Russian engines and well.......the entire design
> And I've heard our Air Marshals are not very fond of the J-10


But F-16 block 70 is only a paper plane as we know and what about EF-2000


----------



## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> But F-16 block 70 is only a paper plane as we know and what about EF-2000


An F-16 Block 70 is quite feasible, its based on the Block 60 which is based of the Block 52+. Even the block 60 would be good.
Eurofighter is great, but its just so expensive to buy and operate. An F-16V would cost 1/3 of a Eurofighter.


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## GREATERPAKISTAN

F 16 block 70,Eurofighter and rafale are very expensive and not a stealth aircraft.We should by 40 J31 stealth fighter plus we can configure it by our needs. I would love to see that combination in 2030.
200 JF17,40 SU 35 ,40 JF31 AND 110 F16.
SO WE CAN COUNTER IAF AERIAL DOMINANCE.


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## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> An F-16 Block 70 is quite feasible, its based on the Block 60 which is based of the Block 52+. Even the block 60 would be good.
> Eurofighter is great, but its just so expensive to buy and operate. An F-16V would cost 1/3 of a Eurofighter.


USA don't give us F-16V and you are talking about F-16 Block 70, money is not problem for PAF and what about Grippen NG

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## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> USA don't give us F-16V and you are talking about F-16 Block 70, money is not problem for PAF and what about Grippen NG


Not a bad choice, but I think the PAF would rather configure the JF-17 Block 3 as close to Gripen NG as they can. It was considered in the early 2000 but the F-16 was still much preferred

The only reason the US isn't giving block 60 is because our government want's them for free.


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## Zain Malik

ACM Sohail Aman meets Ishaq Dar
He assured that PAF wil be provided with funds.
I think a procurement plan is being considered.. 

What do say guys ...... And plz no Indian trolls i will realy behave violently...

@Windjammer @Zarvan @PaklovesTurkiye @DESERT FIGHTER

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## Talwar e Pakistan

Most likely storing funds for fifth generation ambitions.

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## Army research

@Windjammer I have read on many threads that paf and a Chinese company CAC or the other one signed mou for development of a single engine stealth plane ? Is this like the f15 se version of jf 17 or new airframe ? Please shed some light here


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## araz

Hassan Guy said:


> Thailand operates an Aircraft Carrier, their defence budget is actually lower the ours.


Thailand might feel the need for it keeping in view their geological position and their threat perception. I think we dont have any enemies who are not our neighbours. You dont need a Air craft carrier to fight the Indians. Most of our battles if ever fought will be on land so again it makes no sense to have an air craft carrier.
A

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## YeBeWarned

araz said:


> Thailand might feel the need for it keeping in view their geological position and their threat perception. I think we dont have any enemies who are not our neighbours. You dont need a Air craft carrier to fight the Indians. Most of our battles if ever fought will be on land so again it makes no sense to have an air craft carrier.
> A



I'd rather see 3-4 heavy DDG's in PN than having a Air craft carrier ..floating around without even a Decent Air Defense Agis ships to protect it ..

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## Zain Malik

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Most likely storing funds for fifth generation ambitions.


Not exactly brother....
Kuch or pak raha hai


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## Imran Khan

Zain Malik said:


> ACM Sohail Aman meets Ishaq Dar
> He assured that PAF wil be provided with funds.
> I think a procurement plan is being considered..
> 
> What do say guys ...... And plz no Indian trolls i will realy behave violently...
> 
> @Windjammer @Zarvan @PaklovesTurkiye @DESERT FIGHTER


routine meet up as always

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## RealNapster

Zain Malik said:


> And plz no Indian trolls i will realy behave violently...



Ab bachay ki jaan lega kia ?

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## Zarvan

People be ready SU-35 is on the way

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## Hassan Guy

araz said:


> Thailand might feel the need for it keeping in view their geological position and their threat perception. I think we dont have any enemies who are not our neighbours. You dont need a Air craft carrier to fight the Indians. Most of our battles if ever fought will be on land so again it makes no sense to have an air craft carrier.
> A


I don't agree with that.


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## Army research

Hassan Guy said:


> I don't agree with that.


Man listen Pakistan needs minimum deterrence with strategic offences in desert areas to counter cold start , for naval in light of gawader air planes with cruise missles from Karachi or even future forward operating base in gawader with different planes ( probably Chinese ) to protect China and Pakistan after cpec from blockade India needs air craft carrier for their large seas navy operating far from base while our subs and air could finish or deter a blockade any ways this thread is about new paf plane further discuss this in navy thank you


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## Hassan Guy

Starlord said:


> I'd rather see 3-4 heavy DDG's in PN than having a Air craft carrier ..floating around without even a Decent Air Defense Agis ships to protect it ..


Of course it would have protection



Army research said:


> Man listen Pakistan needs minimum deterrence with strategic offences in desert areas to counter cold start , for naval in light of gawader air planes with cruise missles from Karachi or even future forward operating base in gawader with different planes ( probably Chinese ) to protect China and Pakistan after cpec from blockade India needs air craft carrier for their large seas navy operating far from base while our subs and air could finish or deter a blockade any ways this thread is about new paf plane further discuss this in navy thank you


Whatever plane the Air Force buys will also be operated by Navy too


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## Army research

Hassan Guy said:


> Of course it would have protection
> 
> 
> Whatever plane the Air Force buys will also be operated by Navy too


Exactly what I meant but since Chinese imports if oil from gaeader they could themselves station J11 it J16 with cruise missles


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## I S I

Zarvan said:


> People be ready SU-35 is on the way


Hamare HQ main khaara hai, peasants.


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## ali_raza

we should explore new options from turkey

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Zain Malik said:


> ACM Sohail Aman meets Ishaq Dar
> He assured that PAF wil be provided with funds.
> I think a procurement plan is being considered..
> 
> What do say guys ...... And plz no Indian trolls i will realy behave violently...
> 
> @Windjammer @Zarvan @PaklovesTurkiye @DESERT FIGHTER



Hope PAF goes for either Typhoon or SU35...Looks like PAF is onto something...


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## Zain Malik

PaklovesTurkiye said:


> Hope PAF goes for either Typhoon or SU35...Looks like PAF is onto something...


I think we should wait for BRICS summit..
That will show Russian attitude towards Pakistan..
then we will decide either Russia will be a good choice or not.



Zarvan said:


> People be ready SU-35 is on the way


Zarvan Bhai India has finalized S400 deal now something really needs to be inducted.. We are empty handed

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## Gryphon

It does not appear PAF is getting a new fighter soon. Also, reports of S-400 LR-SAM sale to India are alarming for Pakistan. I believe half of Pak air space will be within range if the system is placed 100 km from the border.

@Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Horus @Windjammer @Areesh @Oscar @DESERT FIGHTER @Manticore @fatman17

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## Zain Malik

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> It does not appear PAF is getting a new fighter soon. Also, reports of S-400 LR-SAM sale to India are alarming for Pakistan. I believe half of Pak air space will be within range if the system is placed 100 km from the border.
> 
> @Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Horus @Windjammer @Areesh @Oscar @DESERT FIGHTER @Manticore @fatman17



Exactly...
They can also make our ballistic and cruise missiles useless...

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## jupiter2007

PA and PAF will come up with something to counter S-400 or at least they are planning just like they were planning for short term/long term solution for PAF.


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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> People be ready SU-35 is on the way


Hope it will along with R77 Vempyl missiles


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## Gryphon

Zain Malik said:


> Exactly...
> They can also make our ballistic and cruise missiles useless...
> 
> 
> View attachment 343252



If India gets the S-400 and places it near the border to cover parts of Pak airspace, it will be a serious threat for civilian as well as PAF aircraft. 

US believes these kind of SAMs can be countered using organised cyber attacks. Chinese will start getting deliveries of the S-400 next year AFAIK.
I strongly believe the Chinese are capable of developing such a capability. They have purchased six S-400 systems which will certainly be reverse engineered & the software analysed for loopholes which can be exploited to neutralize or even damage the SAM system (when there is threat of escalation).

http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2...surface-air-missiles-us-looks-counter/109684/

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## Zain Malik

jupiter2007 said:


> PA and PAF will come up with something to counter S-400 or at least they are planning just like they were planning for short term/long term solution for PAF.



No plan is seemed to me..
No Su 35 No J-11
We will wait for 5th generation fighter 
These discussion are from more than 2 years here ... Which will be next 4th gen aircraft...Yes Su-35 Russia will give it to us...No Russia under Indian pressure wont give it to Pakistan .... And

But there seems no planning...

have a look at s400 capabilities:






Niw most likely aircraft induct by IAF Will be F-16 blk 70 .. Another big alarming threat

https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...ner-for-indias-next-fighter-jet-order.455604/


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## Indus Falcon

Arsalan said:


> Lolz,
> yea i got the message and have some idea already. The thing is that the argument is about IRST range and whether it will remain the SAME against Stealth Planes, especially the ones using heat masking techniques and i do not thik there will be any disagreement there. Or you think that a stated range of, for example, 80Km will be EXACTLY same against the planes using heat signature masking techniques?
> 
> No hard feelings @Indus Falcon , i appreciate you inputs and respect your views. It is just that i do not see how they can be the same.



No offense taken at all. I enjoy your posts, and a genuine curiosity to learn and educate, is something I appreciate. 

You are right they are NOT the same. But the difference is NOT that great either. Heat masking, is still in it's infancy, and IRST's are progressing by leaps and bound. From what I know the Blk60's decade+ old IRST was picking up every aircraft in theater, without exception. i.e. exception = aircraft, or exercise it has participated in. 

Makes me wonder what the Blk62 will be capable of.

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## Zain Malik

There will be no new aircraft for PAF ... Discussing them is just teasing yourself...


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## Indus Falcon

Hassan Guy said:


> Remember India just order 2 squadrons of the rafale, I don't see any other alternative (su-35 may be possible) But an F-16 Block 70(even 60) would be a good pick. I don't see you "parroting" any better ideas, if not then leave.
> 
> 
> Sure maybe we should order some more F-7's? Got any better ideas? An F-16 Block 70 (or even 60) would be best counter to the Rafale, It would be a better option over the Su-35
> 
> 
> Thailand operates an Aircraft Carrier, their defence budget is actually lower the ours.



1) I prefer to talk on subjects I'm familiar with, no point in parroting unrealistic nonsense like you. 

2) Irrespective of how effective an F-16Blk62 be against the Rafale, ground realities are very different. 

3) Please do enlighten this forum and tell us what type of aircrafts, and how many, does the HTMS Chakri Naruebe carry?

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## Gryphon

Zarvan said:


> People be ready SU-35 is on the way



People are ready but the Su-35's are nowhere visible. You got any 'inside info' ??


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## Indus Falcon

Hassan Guy said:


> Ye, same here. I talk on those subjects too. And don't play that crap with me right there
> 
> Now I was just sharing my opinion in terms of the F-16, I would like to hear some other plausible alternatives
> 
> The role for Thailand's Aircraft carrier is different, it carries Harriers, Choppers and potentially F-35's. I never said Pakistan should get a STOVL specific aircraft carrier like that one.


@Oscar This kid needs some enlightenment.

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## Super Falcon

We need stop gap fighter jet untill stealth jet arrives which need approx 10 yrs india getting Rafale in 2 yrs we will be sitting duck in numbers and in quality we become weaker day by day us attitude with F 16 will bring more headaches we need SU 35 for stop gap with airsuperiority role and it will fill big holes in PAF


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## Hassan Guy

Super Falcon said:


> We need stop gap fighter jet untill stealth jet arrives which need approx 10 yrs india getting Rafale in 2 yrs we will be sitting duck in numbers and in quality we become weaker day by day us attitude with F 16 will bring more headaches we need SU 35 for stop gap with airsuperiority role and it will fill big holes in PAF


How many Aircraft exactly?


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## Asifkamal

I do not see any Russian fighter in PAF colours. Russia is to sell S400 after 2 weeks and multi billion dollars defence deals in pipeline. European fighters We can,t purchase as eurofighters are very
Costly and Grippen , india may purchase soon as now hunt for single engine fighter has begun. Do,t think of F16 as few aircraft we got were given to us, in the name of war against terrorism.
The only viable option is J10 aircraft. Affordable and no political restrictions. If we order 40 aircraft, we,'ll get them in time space of 3 to 4 years. Otherwise at that time Rafael will started induction in IAF and we will be thinking Nd thinking only. 
If J10 c is equivalent to F16, what else we need?? Stealth is far away


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## wiseone2

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Most likely storing funds for fifth generation ambitions.


only operational 5th generation aircraft are american



Zain Malik said:


> No plan is seemed to me..
> No Su 35 No J-11
> We will wait for 5th generation fighter
> These discussion are from more than 2 years here ... Which will be next 4th gen aircraft...Yes Su-35 Russia will give it to us...No Russia under Indian pressure wont give it to Pakistan .... And
> /



Russia will sell the Su-35. The price will be steep.

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## Zarvan

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> People are ready but the Su-35's are nowhere visible. You got any 'inside info' ??


Yes PAF itself told senate a month ago that they are going for 40 high end Air Crafts the two names they told were Euro Fighter or SU-35


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## war&peace

Zarvan said:


> People be ready SU-35 is on the way


I wish to believe you but many seniors here refute any such opportunities.


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## CHI RULES

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> If India gets the S-400 and places it near the border to cover parts of Pak airspace, it will be a serious threat for civilian as well as PAF aircraft.
> 
> US believes these kind of SAMs can be countered using organised cyber attacks. Chinese will start getting deliveries of the S-400 next year AFAIK.
> I strongly believe the Chinese are capable of developing such a capability. They have purchased six S-400 systems which will certainly be reverse engineered & the software analysed for loopholes which can be exploited to neutralize or even damage the SAM system (when there is threat of escalation).
> 
> http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2...surface-air-missiles-us-looks-counter/109684/


Pak should counter it by HQ9 variant.


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## Zarvan

war&peace said:


> I wish to believe you but many seniors here refute any such opportunities.


Yes same seniors denied that Pakistan is working on nuclear plant for nuclear submarine and now those same seniors have confirmed it. Mr PAF themselves told our senate that we are going for 40 major jets and they names they told are SU-35 or Euro Fighter



CHI RULES said:


> Pak should counter it by HQ9 variant.


We are already buying HQ9. If we would ask Russia they would sell us S-400 no issue with that only question is do we really need it ?

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## war&peace

Zarvan said:


> Yes same seniors denied that Pakistan is working on nuclear plant for nuclear submarine and now those same seniors have confirmed it. Mr PAF themselves told our senate that we are going for 40 major jets and they names they told are SU-35 or Euro Fighter


Good. If you have been following me, you would know that I'm one of the proponents of Su35s or EFTs for PAF and I have been ridiculed for that. I have been out of touch with my contacts in PAF otherwise I would have personally confirmed it thus I'm relying on pdf for the news. I will be more than happy that PAF acquires some 4.5 gen birds asap.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

wiseone2 said:


> only operational 5th generation aircraft are american


hence why I said "ambitions"


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## wiseone2

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> hence why I said "ambitions"


Too ambitious given China track records with 4th gen aircraft


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## Talwar e Pakistan

wiseone2 said:


> Too ambitious given China track records with 4th gen aircraft


Pakistan is apart of the TAI TFX program; not any Chinese program. We've decided to skip 4th generation platforms. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TFX


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## Talwar e Pakistan

wiseone2 said:


> Turkey ability to make a 5th gen aircraft without American or European help is zero. It is unlikely they allow Pakistanis participation due to your closeness with china


You are under-estimating Pakistan-Turkey relations... Especially our cooperation in military fields.

Not too long ago, Pakistan sold Turkey over 100 trainer jets. Pakistan - Turkey regularly embark on many projects. Turkey also has open ToTs with Pakistan over many of their weapons. 

You also under-estimate Turkish engenuity, they are one of the leading indigenous weapons producer in the world and one of the fastest military exporters. 

The TAI TFX program has the backing of Saab and BAE.

Also, it was Turkey that invited Pakistan to join the TAI TFX program.

http://www.baaghi.tv/turkey-invites-pakistan-to-tfx-fighter-program/
http://quwa.org/2016/08/22/turkey-invited-pakistan-participate-next-gen-tfx-fighter-program/

There is also a thread running on this...

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## Zain Malik

Zarvan said:


> Yes same seniors denied that Pakistan is working on nuclear plant for nuclear submarine and now those same seniors have confirmed it. Mr PAF themselves told our senate that we are going for 40 major jets and they names they told are SU-35 or Euro Fighter
> 
> 
> We are already buying HQ9. If we would ask Russia they would sell us S-400 no issue with that only question is do we really need it ?





Zarvan said:


> Yes PAF itself told senate a month ago that they are going for 40 high end Air Crafts the two names they told were Euro Fighter or SU-35


Thats something like a good news 
Do you have any video of that zarvan bhai


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## war&peace

Zarvan said:


> We are already buying HQ9. If we would ask Russia they would sell us S-400 no issue with that only question is do we really need it ?


Yes of course we need it. It is the best currently available system on the market.


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## Zarvan

Zain Malik said:


> Thats something like a good news
> Do you have any video of that zarvan bhai


Those meetings are not recorded but it was reported in all media

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## Talwar e Pakistan

wiseone2 said:


> I understand Turkey-Pakistan relations
> You need to understand what Turkey is capable of
> You need to understand the apprehensions about China
> those issues are not going away


Turkey itself is getting close with China, so I'm not getting what your point is...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-09/30/c_135723873.htm
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1009075.shtml


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## Maxpane

36 Rafael and now this bloody system . Pakistan is really under pressure .


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## WarFariX

Is there any new jet coming to PAF? could it be J10B? or C(not in production though)????Very less chances of SU-35 or Typhoon . Could it be Yak-130?


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

what do you people fracking speculate 3 times a day?

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## Ultima Thule

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Is there any new jet coming to PAF? could it be J10B? or C(not in production though)????Very less chances of SU-35 or Typhoon . Could it be Yak-130?


similar thread is already running on PDF should be close, @Oscar, @waz , please close this thread

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## Viking 63

close this thread please...


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## Gryphon

wiseone2 said:


> It is not Turkey who is the issue. BAE Systems and other American/European companies would be barred from the project



Why are you so worried about China getting access to Western technology when it seems these companies are not concerned at all? 

I assume TFX is being developed by TAI (using Turkish money) and these companies are just providing assistance. China is far ahead when it comes to 5th gen fighter technology. J-20 and J-31 are known to have benefited from F-22/F-35 data stolen by the Chinese via 'cyber attacks'

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

wiseone2 said:


> The f16 was bankrolled by American taxpayers
> Jf17 was partially bankrolled by China
> Who is going to pay for new aircraft?


Pakistan paid for the 18 Block-52+ and munitions package from its own national funds. The MLU program was listed as partly FMF backed, though to what extent is not known. The JF-17 Block-Is were bought on loans, so Pakistan is due (if isn't doing so already) to pay that back.

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## Asifkamal

Well. 1.4 billion dollars were to be paid for 36 j10 as it was planned before. Maybe, with new systems its price goes to 50 million dollars. But we have to pay for it. 1.8 billion dollars in 4 years spane is nothing. Consider if we were back in 2003 era, where we had only 32 F16 with no BVR capabilities, what indian could,ve done with us in past 2 weeks. Here ppl are talking about Eurofighter like planes, That's something, we can,t afford.


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## The Accountant

Bro


Asifkamal said:


> Well. 1.4 billion dollars were to be paid for 36 j10 as it was planned before. Maybe, with new systems its price goes to 50 million dollars. But we have to pay for it. 1.8 billion dollars in 4 years spane is nothing. Consider if we were back in 2003 era, where we had only 32 F16 with no BVR capabilities, what indian could,ve done with us in past 2 weeks. Here ppl are talking about Eurofighter like planes, That's something, we can,t afford.


 Bro are yyou suggesting we are going to field j10 against rafael ?

China is no where near usa when it comes to avionics ... Most importantly ECM ... So mayy be j10 is equivallent or even better than f16 but cant compete f16 ECM and other electronic sensors whereas rafael is much advanced than f16 ... So j10 and f16 will both like sitting ducks for rafael ...

We have to get another air superiority fighter as capable as rafael ...,


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## Asifkamal

I do,t think F16 will be a sitting duck against rafale, though time and again it will need upgradation.As I,ve mentioned , indians are now searching for single engine fighter aircraft to replace big numbers( Mig21,s and 27,s). So most probably do,t think of Grippen to be offered to us( Indian airforce was in favour of it even before rafale deal). Eurofighter is very costly and all we can purchase is some numbers of Trench1 fighters from Italy as we have good defence relationship.
I do,t think Russia will deliver us Su35 ever. Jet engines, gunship helicopters, joint exercises that is maximum.
We got F16 in 2006 order as we aredoing some apologies?? That we need them in war against terrorism and some senetors were objecting that why we need Aamraam then? To fight talibaans , we do,t need them. America will not give us more F16 and if given, chances are that no more future upgradation.( Though fighter aircrafts are sold for political and future finencial prospects as well, as american threatend us embargo of F16 parts when we were about to choose Airbus as passengers aircraft some years before).
What left is J10 . Eassily available on shirt term notice and much much cheaper than other options. America is planning to upgrade its F15,s to be better than J10.


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## The Eagle

*Air Chief Marshal Sohail Amman meets Finance Minister*
Posted By: News Desk on: October 14, 2016







ISLAMABAD: (APP) Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman called on the Finance Minister Senator Mohammad Ishaq Dar here on Thursday.

The Air Chief briefed the minister about preparedness of the Air Force and appreciated government’s support for up gradation of the force, a statement issued by Ministry of Finance here on Thursday said.

Finance minister appreciated the professionalism of Pakistan Air Force and the steps taken for indigenous technological development undertaken by them to modernize the force.

He said that Pakistan Air Force has played a critical and important role to compliment the Zarb-e-Azb operation against terrorists.

The minister assured the Air Chief that fulfilling the defence requirements is the first priority of the government.

He said the government acknowledges the services rendered by the air force for the country and continues to ensure that all their requirements are catered for by the government on emergent basis.

The meeting was attended by officials of the Pakistan Air Force and Ministry of Finance.



war&peace said:


> I wish to believe you but many seniors here refute any such opportunities.



It is not like that but let it be through an official statement rather than following the mere media hypes that causes embarrassment mostly. Also, you have to look at such development through many aspects as well as our financial constraints and mostly the Doctrine. One thing for sure is, PAF is full of surprises even if sometimes it hurts or gives a chance to cheer for but we are in habit to keep things under wrap till suitable time hence nothing is concrete as to be believed currently. Just look at this by another view that when PAF is not stating anything publicly about any new procurement, why would someone disclose to a friend or relative about such development while compromising the national security. The best we can do is analyze the situation, connect the dots, keep in view the developments and track record while reading the news as well. However, keeping an eye is not a bad thing so hopefully, things would be turned out to be good.


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## Gryphon

The Eagle said:


> *Air Chief Marshal Sohail Amman meets Finance Minister*
> Posted By: News Desk on: October 14, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: (APP) Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman called on the Finance Minister Senator Mohammad Ishaq Dar here on Thursday.
> 
> The Air Chief briefed the minister about preparedness of the Air Force and appreciated government’s support for up gradation of the force, a statement issued by Ministry of Finance here on Thursday said.
> 
> Finance minister appreciated the professionalism of Pakistan Air Force and the steps taken for indigenous technological development undertaken by them to modernize the force.
> 
> He said that Pakistan Air Force has played a critical and important role to compliment the Zarb-e-Azb operation against terrorists.
> 
> The minister assured the Air Chief that fulfilling the defence requirements is the first priority of the government.
> 
> He said the government acknowledges the services rendered by the air force for the country and continues to ensure that all their requirements are catered for by the government on emergent basis.
> 
> The meeting was attended by officials of the Pakistan Air Force and Ministry of Finance.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not like that but let it be through an official statement rather than following the mere media hypes that causes embarrassment mostly. Also, you have to look at such development through many aspects as well as our financial constraints and mostly the Doctrine. One thing for sure is, PAF is full of surprises even if sometimes it hurts or gives a chance to cheer for but we are in habit to keep things under wrap till suitable time hence nothing is concrete as to be believed currently. Just look at this by another view that when PAF is not stating anything publicly about any new procurement, why would someone disclose to a friend or relative about such development while compromising the national security. The best we can do is analyze the situation, connect the dots, keep in view the developments and track record while reading the news as well. However, keeping an eye is not a bad thing so hopefully, things would be turned out to be good.



Fighter jets can't remain 'hidden' for long. PAF knows it needs at least two squadrons of twin-engine 4.5 gen aircraft. But the Govt. does not have the money and PAF is forced to buy SAMs as a 'stop gap'. 

These SAMs don't come cheap either. 9 LY-80 systems were purchased for US$ 599 million and 8 IBIS-150 radars for US$ 40 million. I believe 7 more LY-80 systems will be purchased. This will ensure AD for all major airfields of PAF.

I assume PAF is looking into a future scenario when Pakistani and Indian airspace will be protected with LR-SAMs like HQ-9 & S-400. Current PAF aircraft (with possible F-16V upgrade) and JF-17 Block 3's will be used as interceptors. And a 5th gen fighter can be used for strike missions.

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## The Eagle

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Fighter jets can't remain 'hidden' for long. PAF knows it needs at least two squadrons of twin-engine 4.5 gen aircraft. But the Govt. does not have the money and PAF is forced to buy SAMs as a 'stop gap'.
> 
> These SAMs don't come cheap either. 9 LY-80 systems were purchased for US$ 599 million and 8 IBIS-150 radars for US$ 40 million. I believe 7 more LY-80 systems will be purchased. This will ensure AD for all major airfields of PAF.
> 
> I assume PAF is looking into a future scenario when Pakistani and Indian airspace will be protected with LR-SAMs like HQ-9 & S-400. Current PAF aircraft (with possible F-16V upgrade) and JF-17 Block 3's will be used as interceptors. And a 5th gen fighter used for strike missions.



In category of SAMs, I can only say as, we are going upward tier by tier as fully covered through HQ-16 (LY-80) in mid range then IMO we will be going for HQ-9 (LRSAMs). 

Rest about new platform procurement, indeed we are in need but finance is more of the subject before going for such shopping however, currently it is nothing except JF-17 Block-III as planned and if there are talks then are under wrap for good reason until the suitable times including to avoid the diplomatic interference by the rival as on other hand we have been playing "short on budget" thing that Ishaq Dar has to get more loans from IMF and if such procurement disclosed in these times would most probably alarm the IMF. Therefore, I stated that no need to pay attention for new procurement news until & unless any official statement however PAF is need and did brief the house time to time about the requirements but strategies and inductions are planned as per available money.


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## Zain Malik

Asifkamal said:


> What left is J10 . Eassily available on shirt term notice and much much cheaper than other options. America is planning to upgrade its F15,s to be better than J10.


Then why J-10 you are considering J-11 can also be helpful..


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## Dr Shaheryar

I think there is a restriction fro Russia on J-11 export.


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## Hippogryph

We shoud stop thinking about J-10s and Su-35s now and concentrate on JF-17 Block III with A-Dater, RD-33MK, AESA and new EW suite.

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## Dr Shaheryar

Yeah increase production and also enhance abilities will make it at par with enemy planes. And please until a real fight scenario is available, no plane is superior to any other.


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## Ram Mahadev

Well u will add 250 jf17

So India should counter by increasing its defence budgets. F16/gripin should be made in a same numbers of jf17

Tejas will act as force multiplier with 200 plus or more by 2028/30


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## knight11

Zain Malik said:


> Then why J-10 you are considering J-11 can also be helpful..
> 
> View attachment 343360



Problem is the IPR voilation clauses by the Chinese, and the engines which is Russian, since Chinese engines are yet to become reliable.


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## Ultima Thule

knight11 said:


> since Chinese engines are yet to become reliable.


how do you know that Chinese engine is unreliable


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## knight11

pakistanipower said:


> how do you know that Chinese engine is unreliable



Because china is yet to developed the reliable engine yet economically. They are close but not done yet. Otherwise you would have ordered the Chinese engine for the JF-17 rather than Russian ones.


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## Army research

Ram Mahadev said:


> I want good analysis by Pakistan member. How could PAF counter
> 
> MKI 300
> First. May be with f16(78) JF-17 (200)
> 
> But now 36 Rafale deal signed. More can be bought as follow on.
> 
> India also sent RFI for 100 some single engine F16/gripin.
> 
> Tejas can be a headache too with huge numbers.
> 
> More importantly FGFA deal is on the horizon.
> Older plans like Mirage, Mig29 will stay for another 15-20 years.
> 
> Even though I think if we have to have superiority over PAF PLAAF. India should buy atleast 200+ second single engine fighter. And increase Tejas production and produce atleast 300 jets by 2030 MK1/1A/ MK2 .
> 
> 
> Even then it's a close call in Teo front war. So I don't think Pakistan has to worry a lot.


Sir most of your planes are for the Chinese as later full scale war would always involve Chinese threat or action due to importance of gawader and it's part of your strategy to block Pakistan Trade which will include China's oil , also even if you do have superiority after China factor even then in a defensive role where you enter pk territory paf will have awacs and then bvr can do the job but pad entering and leaving intact from Indians sky's highly unlikely

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## Ultima Thule

knight11 said:


> Because china is yet to developed the reliable engine yet economically. They are close but not done yet. Otherwise you would have ordered the Chinese engine for the JF-17 rather than Russian ones.


they are just entering to develop modern jet engine so i agree with you it will take time to develop engine economically


----------



## Army research

pakistanipower said:


> they are just entering to develop modern jet engine so i agree with you it will take time to develop engine economically


I agree even several if heir planes are equipped with them too ,


----------



## danger007

Ram Mahadev said:


> I want good analysis by Pakistan member. How could PAF counter
> 
> MKI 300
> First. May be with f16(78) JF-17 (200)
> 
> But now 36 Rafale deal signed. More can be bought as follow on.
> 
> India also sent RFI for 100 some single engine F16/gripin.
> 
> Tejas can be a headache too with huge numbers.
> 
> More importantly FGFA deal is on the horizon.
> Older plans like Mirage, Mig29 will stay for another 15-20 years.
> 
> Even though I think if we have to have superiority over PAF PLAAF. India should buy atleast 200+ second single engine fighter. And increase Tejas production and produce atleast 300 jets by 2030 MK1/1A/ MK2 .
> 
> 
> Even then it's a close call in Teo front war. So I don't think Pakistan has to worry a lot.




No we are not going for 300.. may be half of that.



Hassan Guy said:


> We could order a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier from France for the cost of barely 1 squadron of the Typhoon
> 
> F-16 Block 70 is best choice





Nuclear powered AC? Are you kidding .. it will eat your entire defence budget slowly.. Rafale is for another side .. Pakistan need not to worry about it..


----------



## Hassan Guy

danger007 said:


> No we are not going for 300.. may be half of that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nuclear powered AC? Are you kidding .. it will eat your entire defence budget slowly.. Rafale is for another side .. Pakistan need not to worry about it..


Still way cheaper then getting the Typhoon


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## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> Still way cheaper then getting the Typhoon


what you are talking about Nuclear powered aircraft carrier is cheaper than Typhoon


----------



## danger007

Hassan Guy said:


> Stiluseay cheaper then getting the Typhoon




You are talking about Nuclear Carrier .. you need battle group along with Carrier.. it's a white elephant for small budget navy..


----------



## Zain Malik

Ram Mahadev said:


> I want good analysis by Pakistan member. How could PAF counter
> 
> MKI 300
> First. May be with f16(78) JF-17 (200)
> 
> But now 36 Rafale deal signed. More can be bought as follow on.
> 
> India also sent RFI for 100 some single engine F16/gripin.
> 
> Tejas can be a headache too with huge numbers.
> 
> More importantly FGFA deal is on the horizon.
> Older plans like Mirage, Mig29 will stay for another 15-20 years.
> 
> Even though I think if we have to have superiority over PAF PLAAF. India should buy atleast 200+ second single engine fighter. And increase Tejas production and produce atleast 300 jets by 2030 MK1/1A/ MK2 .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even then it's a close call in Teo front war. So I don't think Pakistan has to worry a lot.


We are not thinking about your MKI and tejas we know their availability tejas is failed well not trolling but it is fact and mki are inducted in large numbers but not in service due to.lac of spare parts.

Your single engine program will take more five years till then webhave a 5th gen platform.

All the problem is rafale that will be added in IAF till 2019



Hassan Guy said:


> Still way cheaper then getting the Typhoon


Bhai tjhe le du ga ma AC 
its the thread for aircraft for PAF not for AC plz mention your thoughts toG a relative thread.

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## GiG

To counter threats from Indian BVRM and SAMs PAF need to modify standard JF 17 to specialized electronic warfare fighter like the EA-18G Growler


----------



## خره مينه لګته وي

Congratulations on surpassing 1003 comments but still no news we are not buying new aircrafts  I think it's time to close this thread & in future mods shouldn't let anyone start a new threads based on rumors, from last 6,7 years we are creating threads on rumors...each year we creating 3,4 threads on lies,rumors of someone said this & that, but still not a single fighter jet in Pakistan colrs 



mingle said:


> Haris said very soon it mean negotiations at some final stage .india Rafale deal is done for sure .its a news he broke not his idea or Guess sources r AHQ


5 months gone but where is news ?? Very soooooonn, indeed !!

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## danger007

Zain Malik said:


> We are not thinking about your MKI and tejas we know their availability tejas is failed well not trolling but it is fact and mki are inducted in large numbers but not in service due to.lac of spare parts.
> 
> Your single engine program will take more five years till then webhave a 5th gen platform.
> 
> All the problem is rafale that will be added in IAF till 2019
> 
> 
> Bhai tjhe le du ga ma AC
> its the thread for aircraft for PAF not for AC plz mention your thoughts toG a relative thread.




Not in service? Are you aware 



Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) said Tuesday that it has produced 12 Su-30 MKI aircraft from raw material phase during the fiscal year 2015-16.
Stating that the company’s turnover has surged to INR 16524 crores for the year 2015-2016, T. Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL said production of 17 Hawk aircraft is also the highest ever achieved in a year.
The production highlights of the said year include 60 new aircraft and helicopters, overhauling of 229 aircraft and helicopters, 94 new engines, 446 engines overhauled and supply of 143 aerospace structures.
On ‘Make in India’ front 2021 items were indigenized which will result in FE savings of INR 126 crores annually. More than 300 imported systems and sub-systems have been hosted on HAL’s website (Make in India section) to enable private industries to take up indigenization.
HAL has manufactured parts of Su-30MKIs from the raw material stage with complete transfer of technology from IRKUT Corporation under Phase IV of the assembly. Nashik facility of the firm is domestically manufacturing over 31,500 components that are integrated into the fighter jet, in addition partially indigenizing its AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha, India

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15..._30MKI_During_2015_16_From_Raw_Material_Phase

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## خره مينه لګته وي

Maj.Osmani said:


> Fake hoax news or simply GUP
> @MastanKhan @Zarvan
> Now ladu tu bantey hien na. woh bhi boondhi walay...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Arsalan


Yep you're right  another bubble burst !!
• another thread gone down the drain  rumors


----------



## Zain Malik

danger007 said:


> Not in service? Are you aware
> 
> 
> 
> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) said Tuesday that it has produced 12 Su-30 MKI aircraft from raw material phase during the fiscal year 2015-16.
> Stating that the company’s turnover has surged to INR 16524 crores for the year 2015-2016, T. Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL said production of 17 Hawk aircraft is also the highest ever achieved in a year.
> The production highlights of the said year include 60 new aircraft and helicopters, overhauling of 229 aircraft and helicopters, 94 new engines, 446 engines overhauled and supply of 143 aerospace structures.
> On ‘Make in India’ front 2021 items were indigenized which will result in FE savings of INR 126 crores annually. More than 300 imported systems and sub-systems have been hosted on HAL’s website (Make in India section) to enable private industries to take up indigenization.
> HAL has manufactured parts of Su-30MKIs from the raw material stage with complete transfer of technology from IRKUT Corporation under Phase IV of the assembly. Nashik facility of the firm is domestically manufacturing over 31,500 components that are integrated into the fighter jet, in addition partially indigenizing its AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha, India
> 
> http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15..._30MKI_During_2015_16_From_Raw_Material_Phase



Don't give me HAL explainations I just know that out 242 MKI there are 60% of them just operational due to lack of spare parts


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## danger007

Zain Malik said:


> Don't give me HAL explainations I just know that out 242 MKI there are 60% of them just operational due to lack of spare parts




Am not explaining and I don't need to do. But we have localised production for many parts. Availability vary from one to another that is due to many factors like maintenance and spare parts ... even JF 17 you will not have 100% availability..


----------



## Hippogryph

Zain Malik said:


> We are not thinking about your MKI and tejas we know their availability tejas is failed well not trolling but it is fact and mki are inducted in large numbers but not in service due to.lac of spare parts.
> 
> Your single engine program will take more five years till then webhave a 5th gen platform.
> 
> All the problem is rafale that will be added in IAF till 2019
> 
> 
> Bhai tjhe le du ga ma AC
> its the thread for aircraft for PAF not for AC plz mention your thoughts toG a relative thread.


Sir are you serious? Who told you this? Indians are establishing a logistic hub for their MKIs with the help of Russia , Which means that they can have whatever they need for their large fleet of Su-30s on their own.


----------



## Ram Mahadev

Zain Malik said:


> We are not thinking about your MKI and tejas we know their availability tejas is failed well not trolling but it is fact and mki are inducted in large numbers but not in service due to.lac of spare parts.
> 
> Your single engine program will take more five years till then webhave a 5th gen platform.
> 
> All the problem is rafale that will be added in IAF till 2019
> 
> 
> Bhai tjhe le du ga ma AC
> its the thread for aircraft for PAF not for AC plz mention your thoughts toG a relative thread.



Are u telling you can take on 270 MKI in which 75% is available atleast but worried about 36 rafale which ll take 6 years to complete? Tejas is also not a toy but actual fighter jet with missile BVR capable with American engine, Israeli radar. 

Actually I asked multiple questions.


----------



## Zain Malik

Hippogryph said:


> Sir are you serious? Who told you this? Indians are establishing a logistic hub for their MKIs with the help of Russia , Which means that they can have whatever they need for their large fleet of Su-30s on their own.


Let this first to be developed...Then we'll meet again...



Ram Mahadev said:


> Tejas is also not a toy but actual fighter jet with missile BVR capable with American engine, Israeli radar.


-Yup I can understand indigenous emotions...Carry on


----------



## wiseone2

TheOccupiedKashmir said:


> Why are you so worried about China getting access to Western technology when it seems these companies are not concerned at all?
> 
> I assume TFX is being developed by TAI (using Turkish money) and these companies are just providing assistance. China is far ahead when it comes to 5th gen fighter technology. J-20 and J-31 are known to have benefited from F-22/F-35 data stolen by the Chinese via 'cyber attacks'



the companies might not. Western countries do
There is a weapons embargo on China since 1988



pakistanipower said:


> how do you know that Chinese engine is unreliable



why are PAF JF-17 equipped with RD-93 ??


----------



## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> what you are talking about Nuclear powered aircraft carrier is cheaper than Typhoon


To get them in FAIR numbers, Are we gonna buy 1 or 2???????


----------



## ghauri05

USA made F16 and F15 to be used as a combo..F16 as a multi role n F15 as air superiority
Russia countere it with MIG29 n Su-27 combo.

Pak got only F16 from USA n india got the combo Mig29 n upgraded Su-version Su 30MKI...only Mig 29 could not harm Pak..But its Su30 which gave IAF an edge over PAF..n those planes are in huge numbers.

The next era belongs to stealth tech...so far PAF has shown interest in J-31, while india is a partner in PAKFA n has plans to build its own AMCA...so in the long run ...IAF will again have a combo of lighter n heavy plane..n PAKFA will be the best product ..on par with F-22

while PAf will again have a lighter aircraft j-31...if this is the strategy of PAF...its dilemma will continue for next many decades....If PAF has learnt any lesson it should go for both j-31 n TFX...not simultaneously...but one by one..first induct j-31 in reasonable numbers n then move to TFX as a front liner air superiority...only then PAF will have strong air force in future...if we continue to go with the same approach as we are going now...we will never be able to balance the air power with india

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## Cool_Soldier

New aircraft of few sqd is indeed need of ime.
4.5 generation are needed.
Platform, PAF has to select.


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## Ultima Thule

wiseone2 said:


> why are PAF JF-17 equipped with RD-93 ??


In the past they were unreliable, there are 500+ WS10 in operations with PLAAF, they are improving fast, and not forget Chinese are relatively new in jet engine development

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## Army research

ghauri05 said:


> USA made F16 and F15 to be used as a combo..F16 as a multi role n F15 as air superiority
> Russia countere it with MIG29 n Su-27 combo.
> 
> Pak got only F16 from USA n india got the combo Mig29 n upgraded Su-version Su 30MKI...only Mig 29 could not harm Pak..But its Su30 which gave IAF an edge over PAF..n those planes are in huge numbers.
> 
> The next era belongs to stealth tech...so far PAF has shown interest in J-31, while india is a partner in PAKFA n has plans to build its own AMCA...so in the long run ...IAF will again have a combo of lighter n heavy plane..n PAKFA will be the best product ..on par with F-22
> 
> while PAf will again have a lighter aircraft j-31...if this is the strategy of PAF...its dilemma will continue for next many decades....If PAF has learnt any lesson it should go for both j-31 n TFX...not simultaneously...but one by one..first induct j-31 in reasonable numbers n then move to TFX as a front liner air superiority...only then PAF will have strong air force in future...if we continue to go with the same approach as we are going now...we will never be able to balance the air power with india


I so believe so that tfx and J 31 are coming


----------



## IceCold

La vi lo naya jahaz. What happened to the briefing given to standing committee? @Zarvan Janab app na to kaha tha deal is on. Tab sa la ker abb tak khamoossii ha. Phir kya hua koi update?


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## ghauri05

Army research said:


> I so believe so that tfx and J 31 are coming


They should..but seriously i have lost faith in PAF's decision makers...in last 2 decades they have set records of blunders on their part...so only God can help PAF n PN especially.

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## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> To get them in FAIR numbers, Are we gonna buy 1 or 2???????


bro their is no need of Nuclear aircraft carrier for Pakistan, we defensive force and aircraft carriers are for power projections not for defensive force and as for Typhoon we will not need hundreds of those, my estimates are within 100
that cost 9 to 10 billion $$$$, which is the cost of single Nuclear aircraft carrier


----------



## danger007

Zain Malik said:


> Let this first to be developed...Then we'll meet again...
> 
> 
> -Yup I can understand indigenous emotions...Carry on





We have localised production facility of different parts for the MKI and we have licensed production line for the MKI and Engine... we have over haul facility here itself..


----------



## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> bro their is no need of Nuclear aircraft carrier for Pakistan, we defensive force and aircraft carriers are for power projections not for defensive force and as for Typhoon we will not need hundreds of those, my estimates are within 100
> that cost 9 to 10 billion $$$$, which is the cost of single Nuclear aircraft carrier


Bro, Kuwait ordered 28 Typhoons (barely 2 squadrons) for 8 Billion Euros,
The French Nuclear Aircraft Carrier costs 3 Billion Euros,


----------



## wiseone2

ghauri05 said:


> USA made F16 and F15 to be used as a combo..F16 as a multi role n F15 as air superiority
> Russia countere it with MIG29 n Su-27 combo.
> 
> Pak got only F16 from USA n india got the combo Mig29 n upgraded Su-version Su 30MKI...only Mig 29 could not harm Pak..But its Su30 which gave IAF an edge over PAF..n those planes are in huge numbers.
> 
> The next era belongs to stealth tech...so far PAF has shown interest in J-31, while india is a partner in PAKFA n has plans to build its own AMCA...so in the long run ...IAF will again have a combo of lighter n heavy plane..n PAKFA will be the best product ..on par with F-22
> 
> while PAf will again have a lighter aircraft j-31...if this is the strategy of PAF...its dilemma will continue for next many decades....If PAF has learnt any lesson it should go for both j-31 n TFX...not simultaneously...but one by one..first induct j-31 in reasonable numbers n then move to TFX as a front liner air superiority...only then PAF will have strong air force in future...if we continue to go with the same approach as we are going now...we will never be able to balance the air power with india



nice explanation of strategy

I doubt Russia, China and Turkey can build a operational 5th generation combat aircraft


----------



## ghauri05

wiseone2 said:


> nice explanation of strategy
> 
> I doubt Russia, China and Turkey can build a operational 5th generation combat aircraft


Russia is making PAKFA and China J-20...they will take time but eventually they will be there..it may take 10-15 years...what's there to doubt about them...TFX is on paper so far.


----------



## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> Bro, Kuwait ordered 28 Typhoons (barely 2 squadrons) for 8 Billion Euros,
> The French Nuclear Aircraft Carrier costs 3 Billion Euros,


bro we don't need a Nuclear aircraft carrier, we are not offensive force we are defensive force


----------



## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> bro we don't need a Nuclear aircraft carrier, we are not offensive force we are defensive force


I don't agree with your statement, But Im just bringing it up.
Though would be great to have, the Typhoon is not possible.


----------



## wiseone2

ghauri05 said:


> Russia is making PAKFA and China J-20...they will take time but eventually they will be there..it may take 10-15 years...what's there to doubt about them...TFX is on paper so far.



the technologies are getting more complex


----------



## Hassan Guy

Saudi, Kuwait and Oman have ordered the Tranche 3 Eurofighter, It's becoming a joke these countries have better aircraft then Pakistan at this point.

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## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> The Typhoon is not a feasible option.


F-16 no chance, Typhoon not feasible, RAFALE not possible, Grippen said no by Sweden, Su-35 less chance, J-10 not liked by PAF, J-11 engine and design issue *so what is your option* *USS ENTERPRISE*



Hassan Guy said:


> Saudi, Kuwait and Oman have ordered the Tranche 3 Eurofighter, It's becoming a joke these countries have better aircraft then Pakistan at this point.


Simple because they have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> F-16 no chance, Typhoon not feasible, RAFALE not possible, Grippen said no by Sweden, Su-35 less chance, J-10 not liked by PAF, J-11 engine and design issue *so what is your option* *USS ENTERPRISE*
> 
> 
> Simple because they have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


I think the F-16 is the only option. It's affordable(sometimes) and we already operate them.


----------



## Zain Malik

Hassan Guy said:


> Bro, Kuwait ordered 28 Typhoons (barely 2 squadrons) for 8 Billion Euros,
> The French Nuclear Aircraft Carrier costs 3 Billion Euros,


Yaar peeche e par giya ha...'

3 billiion euros us cheez k liye zaya kar dein jis ki zroorat e nahi
allwe need now is a competent to rafale..


----------



## Hassan Guy

Zain Malik said:


> Yaar peeche e par giya ha...'
> 
> 3 billiion euros us cheez k liye zaya kar dein jis ki zroorat e nahi
> allwe need now is a competent to rafale..


Im just bringing it up, 
And who said "zroorat nahi hair"?


----------



## danger007

Hassan Guy said:


> I think the F-16 is the only option. It's affordable(sometimes) and we already operate them.



I don't think you have that option either..


----------



## Hassan Guy

danger007 said:


> I don't think you have that option either..


Well shit, then why do we use them?


----------



## royalharris

Hassan Guy said:


> Bro, Kuwait ordered 28 Typhoons (barely 2 squadrons) for 8 Billion Euros,
> The French Nuclear Aircraft Carrier costs 3 Billion Euros,


For GCC,They buy aircraft superficially,actually buy protection and safety from the power, this is why the deal by them always seem to be overprice.


----------



## danger007

Hassan Guy said:


> Well shit, then why do we use them?




You have them..


----------



## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> I think the F-16 is the only option. It's affordable(sometimes) and we already operate them.


Come on bro get out your dream of F-16 its 70s design, world is moving to innovation like TVC AESA, IRST STEALTH (LOW OBSERVABLE) and you are insisting 70's era design


----------



## Hassan Guy

royalharris said:


> For GCC,They buy aircraft superficially,actually buy protection and safety from the power, this is why the deal by them always seem to be overprice.


Oh, so we are gonna get some Typhoons for a way cheaper price now right?


----------



## danger007

Technogaianist said:


> How's this for an option?
> 
> Offered to India, but we're willing to cut a deal with Pakistan too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheap, maneuverable, stealthy and armed with whatever it'll carry, we're even willing to set up a production line in Pakistan and transfer as much tech as you're interested in.
> 
> And it's still a better aircraft then anything flying in India right now.




Scary tup:


----------



## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> Come on bro get out your dream of F-16 its 70s design, world is moving to innovation like TVC AESA, IRST STEALTH (LOW OBSERVABLE) and you are insisting 70's era design


So the better option is....



danger007 said:


> You have them..


If we can actually pay for them, then it is an option.


----------



## royalharris

Hassan Guy said:


> Oh, so we are gonna get some Typhoons for a way cheaper price now right?


Yes


----------



## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> So the better option is....


EF-2000 or J-10C or should be your *USS ENTERPRISE*

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## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> EF-2000 or J-10C or should be your *USS ENTERPRISE*


I though we already covered the Eurofighter and J-10, And I never said anything about the USS Enterprise, Don't be a smart *** bro


----------



## danger007

pakistanipower said:


> EF-2000 or J-10C or should be your *USS ENTERPRISE*




May be better to consider Gerald super carriers.. which could give nightmare to Indian navy..


----------



## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> I though we already covered the Eurofighter and J-10, And I never said anything about the USS Enterprise, Don't be a smart *** bro


$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is no problem for PAF bro these are the only two viable options sorry to say bro you acting like 12 year kid so what option left i am asking to you bro



danger007 said:


> May be better to consider Gerald super carriers.. which could give nightmare to Indian navy..


yes sir he is an idiot


----------



## Zain Malik

Technogaianist said:


> How's this for an option?
> 
> Offered to India, but we're willing to cut a deal with Pakistan too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheap, maneuverable, stealthy and armed with whatever it'll carry, we're even willing to set up a production line in Pakistan and transfer as much tech as you're interested in.
> 
> And it's still a better aircraft then anything flying in India right now.




Keep ur ideas to yourself..
I wonder your airforce still operates them..



Hassan Guy said:


> Oh, so we are gonna get some Typhoons for a way cheaper price now right?


OH This Guy


----------



## royalharris

wiseone2 said:


> the companies might not. Western countries do
> There is a weapons embargo on China since 1988
> 
> 
> 
> why are PAF JF-17 equipped with RD-93 ??


But now,what can Europe provide to China?
We should thank them for their embargo at that time.


----------



## Fenrir

Zain Malik said:


> I wonder your airforce still operates them..



Of course we still operate them, see...












Oh, wait. Wrong aircraft.

The Tiger Moth is kept around as a ceremonial aircraft to mark the end of WWII and the end of Germany's occupation of Norway, otherwise they are stored in the Norwegian Defense Museum:











And my idea was still better then anything the lot of you have come up with, and far more realistic too.

How many times are we going to throw around SU-35, Typhoon or Gripen before realizing none of them are a valid or reasonable option for Pakistan due to cost, capability or diplomatic reason?

You want a real idea and not just me being an *ss? Take the money you'd spend on buying, arming, training for and maintaining a new aircraft and invest that money into the JF-17 program and make it more capable:






JF-17 Block III, there's your new aircraft.

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## Zain Malik

Technogaianist said:


> JF-17 Block III, there's your new aircraft


wait for its induction, will shut the worlds mouth...

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## Michael Corleone

sure do join YAK-130 band wagon. it offers a lot for its price

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## Zarvan

IceCold said:


> La vi lo naya jahaz. What happened to the briefing given to standing committee? @Zarvan Janab app na to kaha tha deal is on. Tab sa la ker abb tak khamoossii ha. Phir kya hua koi update?


Yes they are working on it and you would hear about the deal soon


----------



## CHI RULES

The problem with people is that they think if JF17 block-iii is oing to launch in 2019 or 2020 it will be designed in one day and we should stock funds for their production, if sanity prevails one should know that PAF funds are not specific for JF17 block-III only i.e if Pak gets few Euro fighters or SU35s then we should not be able to produce better version of block -iii. 

For a person with sound mind should know that perhaps designing process of JF17 block-III should have been completed along with finalization of gadgets. The problem is that we can produce block-III up to our limits as IAF continuously upgrading it's existing fleet along with increasing operational availability of SU30 up to 60-70% They have already armed their jets with next gen AMRAAM,LRAAM and HOBS WVRs of both Western and Russian origin.

Rafael or no Rafael we require new platform with lower or no strings like F16s, which we can upgrade time to time and arm with any feasible armament available to counter existing/ near future threats. The block-III will be relevant after 1-2 to years after start of production. If possible even PAF should try to sell their 76 odd F16s if viper upgrade along with AMRAAM120-C7 and AIM 9X is not availble to Pak. Or bring them to second tier.
If we get SU35s or Euro fighters they are both potent and modern platforms which Pak pilots may adopt in little or no time due to ease in handling. Further we may arm them by better availble options of either Chinese or Western origin. There is an honest opinion that so far our Jf17s up to block -ii can;t challenge Mig 29Ks in Naval warfare. Further our Mirages can't sneak through enemy defenses for deep strikes due to age and old gadgetry.

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## Hassan Guy

CHI RULES said:


> The problem with people is that they think if JF17 block-iii is oing to launch in 2019 or 2020 it will be designed in one day and we should stock funds for their production, if sanity prevails one should know that PAF funds are not specific for JF17 block-III only i.e if Pak gets few Euro fighters or SU35s then we should not be able to produce better version of block -iii.
> 
> For a person with sound mind should know that perhaps designing process of JF17 block-III should have been completed along with finalization of gadgets. The problem is that we can produce block-III up to our limits as IAF continuously upgrading it's existing fleet along with increasing operational availability of SU30 up to 60-70% They have already armed their jets with next gen AMRAAM,LRAAM and HOBS WVRs of both Western and Russian origin.
> 
> Rafael or no Rafael we require new platform with lower or no strings like F16s, which we can upgrade time to time and arm with any feasible armament available to counter existing/ near future threats. The block-III will be relevant after 1-2 to years after start of production. If possible even PAF should try to sell their 76 odd F16s if viper upgrade along with AMRAAM120-C7 and AIM 9X is not availble to Pak. Or bring them to second tier.
> If we get SU35s or Euro fighters they are both potent and modern platforms which Pak pilots may adopt in little or no time due to ease in handling. Further we may arm them by better availble options of either Chinese or Western origin. There is an honest opinion that so far our Jf17s up to block -ii can;t challenge Mig 29Ks in Naval warfare. Further our Mirages can't sneak through enemy defenses for deep strikes due to age and old gadgetry.


Is the design and airframe for the Block 3 the same as the block 2?


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## iby32

Super Falcon said:


> Status on J 10B unknown like a ufo mistry do we buy them or not as we had requirement of 36
> 
> 
> Pakistan aeging C 130 fleet any plans to slowly replace them 3 decades past that paf bought any new cargo planes
> 
> Cn 235 was old il 76 was tankers thats it


We dont have an overseas enemy so we dont need heavy transport aircrafts to transport troops worldwide. At the moment we do need to replace our entire fighter fleet after 10 years or so f16 will be like current mirages we need at least 530 fighter aircrafts

Why not we are going for j11d or j16 from china

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## CriticalThought

I would like to question the need for a new aircraft. India doesn't have any stealth aircraft in her inventory, and it doesn't look like they will be getting such aircraft any time soon. Instead of investing in a new aircraft, we should be concentrating on bolstering our air defense measures. The thread here:

https://defence.pk/threads/here’s-w...-backed-targets-in-syria.455473/#post-8805139

gives a very good analysis on the relative strengths/weaknesses of the best aircraft in the world vs. the best air defense system in world.

A slightly related question for our members here: What good would be a 5th generation fighter if we only come to know of the Rafale's threat when it is about to strike? We cannot have AWACS in the air 24/7 for our full border with India. As a matter of fact, if India wanted to play dirty, they could very well attack from bases in Afghanistan! So we would need AWACS 24/7 in the air on both the eastern border and the western border. The only real solution is to invest in a best of breed ground air defense system, including radar and anti-aircraft missiles. I hope the new university planned by PAF gives a high importance to indigenous research on air defense systems.


----------



## wiseone2

CriticalThought said:


> I would like to question the need for a new aircraft. India doesn't have any stealth aircraft in her inventory, and it doesn't look like they will be getting such aircraft any time soon. Instead of investing in a new aircraft, we should be concentrating on bolstering our air defense measures. The thread here:
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/here’s-what-would-happen-if-us-tried-to-strike-russian-backed-targets-in-syria.455473/#post-8805139
> 
> gives a very good analysis on the relative strengths/weaknesses of the best aircraft in the world vs. the best air defense system in world.
> 
> A slightly related question for our members here: What good would be a 5th generation fighter if we only come to know of the Rafale's threat when it is about to strike? We cannot have AWACS in the air 24/7 for our full border with India. As a matter of fact, if India wanted to play dirty, they could very well attack from bases in Afghanistan! So we would need AWACS 24/7 in the air on both the eastern border and the western border. The only real solution is to invest in a best of breed ground air defense system, including radar and anti-aircraft missiles. I hope the new university planned by PAF gives a high importance to indigenous research on air defense systems.



It is not clear how well Russian and Chinese aircraft will hold up in a lengthy war


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## CriticalThought

CHI RULES said:


> There is an honest opinion that so far our Jf17s up to block -ii can;t challenge Mig 29Ks in Naval warfare. Further our Mirages can't sneak through enemy defenses for deep strikes due to age and old gadgetry.



"The JF-17 is extremely close if not exactly the same as Mig-29" These are the words of the head of the Mig and Sukhoi Holding. Am not allowed to post URLs, but on youtube, put a forward slash, then include watch?v=L2xC0m0pPF0.

That video DOES NOT mean that Russia isn't willing to transfer engine technology to Pakistan itself. Again, on sputniknews comMERCIAL site put a forward slash then asia then forward slash then 201511121029973347-pakistan-russia-engines and finally a forward slash again. To quote:



> A Russian engine is being installed in Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder fighter jet which inspires hope for cooperation between the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Russian engine maker, a PAC representative said on Monday.
> 
> A Sukhoi SU-35 jetfigther © AP Photo/ Francois Mori Russia-Pakistan Military Cooperation Not Threatening Relations With India “As we know, a Russian engine is being installed on the JF-17 Thunder and we are looking forward to further cooperation with the engine manufacturer in Russia,” the Pakistani official told RIA Novosti news agency on the sidelines of the 2015 Dubai Air Show on Monday. The PAC representative expressed interest in having Pakistani engine specialists undergo training in Russia and their Russian colleagues helping modernize the company’s engine-repair facilities in Pakistan. The JF-17 all-weather multirole fighter, jointly developed by Pakistan and China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation, is currently being modified with a Russian-made RD-93 engine. Founded in 1971 by the Pakistan Air Force, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex is a major aerospace, defense, aviation contractor and military corporation producing aerial systems for both military and civilian usage.


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## The SC

jupiter2007 said:


> PA and PAF will come up with something to counter S-400 or at least they are planning just like they were planning for short term/long term solution for PAF.



And in a few years from now add these too: 72 of them


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## The SC

Oscar said:


> No we are not.



MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force Sohail Aman had "fruitful talks" in Moscow in July on purchasing of Russian Su-35 (NATO reporting name: Flanker-E) fighter jets, Pakistani Ambassador to Russia Qazi Khalilullah told Sputnik.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201609051044975853-pakistan-russia-ambassador-su35/


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## SQ8

The SC said:


> MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force Sohail Aman had "fruitful talks" in Moscow in July on purchasing of Russian Su-35 (NATO reporting name: Flanker-E) fighter jets, Pakistani Ambassador to Russia Qazi Khalilullah told Sputnik.
> 
> Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201609051044975853-pakistan-russia-ambassador-su35/


No we are not

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## The SC

Oscar said:


> No we are not


OK!


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## CHI RULES

CriticalThought said:


> "The JF-17 is extremely close if not exactly the same as Mig-29" These are the words of the head of the Mig and Sukhoi Holding. Am not allowed to post URLs, but on youtube, put a forward slash, then include watch?v=L2xC0m0pPF0.
> 
> That video DOES NOT mean that Russia isn't willing to transfer engine technology to Pakistan itself. Again, on sputniknews comMERCIAL site put a forward slash then asia then forward slash then 201511121029973347-pakistan-russia-engines and finally a forward slash again. To quote:



Mig 29 has many variants and I have specifically mentioned Indian Mig29Ks. A fighter close to another can't be of same class. Further gadgetry also plays very important role.



Hassan Guy said:


> Is the design and airframe for the Block 3 the same as the block 2?



I am a layman like many posters and get news from here and there. However onnce I met a tech pro who was involved in production of JF17 block 1 he assured me that though JF17 certainly lacks in speed and maneuverability as compared to F16s yet has advantage for us to integrate any armament we like. Further the jet has the potential to grow which is now proving correct gradually.

My own view is that our block-iii should suffice our needs regarding air defense it should have following features.

1. Use of more composites and frontal stealth feature like Euro fighter.
2. Smokeless and powerful engine with IR suppression .
3. Max Speed of Mach 2+
4.Next Gen BVR like Marlin or PL15/21 with WVR HOBs missile.
5. Integrated IRST with effective range.
6.Capable AESA radar with relatively sufficient range.
7 Western EW suite.

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## Ultima Thule

CHI RULES said:


> Mig 29 has many variants and I have specifically mentioned Indian Mig29Ks. A fighter close to another can't be of same class. Further gadgetry also plays very important role.
> 
> 
> 
> I am a layman like many posters and get news from here and there. However onnce I met a tech pro who was involved in production of JF17 block 1 he assured me that though JF17 certainly lacks in speed and maneuverability as compared to F16s yet has advantage for us to integrate any armament we like. Further the jet has the potential to grow which is now proving correct gradually.
> 
> My own view is that our block-iii should suffice our needs regarding air defense it should have following features.
> 
> 1. Use of more composites and frontal stealth feature like Euro fighter.
> 2. Smokeless and powerful engine with IR suppression .
> 3. Max Speed of Mach 2+
> 4.Next Gen BVR like Marlin or PL15/21 with WVR HOBs missile.
> 5. Integrated IRST with effective range.
> 6.Capable AESA radar with relatively sufficient range.
> 7 Western EW suite.


except point3 all those goodies are in the block-3, DSI limit aircraft speed with in mach 2 and top speed doesn't matter it accelerations that matters


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## Hassan Guy

CHI RULES said:


> Mig 29 has many variants and I have specifically mentioned Indian Mig29Ks. A fighter close to another can't be of same class. Further gadgetry also plays very important role.
> 
> 
> 
> I am a layman like many posters and get news from here and there. However onnce I met a tech pro who was involved in production of JF17 block 1 he assured me that though JF17 certainly lacks in speed and maneuverability as compared to F16s yet has advantage for us to integrate any armament we like. Further the jet has the potential to grow which is now proving correct gradually.
> 
> My own view is that our block-iii should suffice our needs regarding air defense it should have following features.
> 
> 1. Use of more composites and frontal stealth feature like Euro fighter.
> 2. Smokeless and powerful engine with IR suppression .
> 3. Max Speed of Mach 2+
> 4.Next Gen BVR like Marlin or PL15/21 with WVR HOBs missile.
> 5. Integrated IRST with effective range.
> 6.Capable AESA radar with relatively sufficient range.
> 7 Western EW suite.


But is the design the same?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> No we are not


Will to life. Will it to life. @Oscar!


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## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> But is the design the same?


with minor modifications


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## Signalian

CHI RULES said:


> My own view is that our block-iii should suffice our needs regarding air defense it should have following features.
> 
> 1. Use of more composites and frontal stealth feature like Euro fighter.
> 2. Smokeless and powerful engine with IR suppression .
> 3. Max Speed of Mach 2+
> 4.Next Gen BVR like Marlin or PL15/21 with WVR HOBs missile.
> 5. Integrated IRST with effective range.
> 6.Capable AESA radar with relatively sufficient range.
> 7 Western EW suite.



I would prefer that PAF designs a new aircraft altogether. Till then keep upgrading all JF-17's.


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## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> with minor modifications


How "minor" are they?



Sarge said:


> I would prefer that PAF designs a new aircraft altogether. Till then keep upgrading all JF-17's.


They should for next gen.


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## dadeechi

The Eagle said:


> we are going upward tier by tier as fully covered through HQ-16 (LY-80) in mid range then IMO we will be going for HQ-9 (LRSAMs).



It is said that China procured S-400s to make HQ-9s exceed the performance of S-400s.

Interesting to see how Pakistan's HQ-16s & HQ-9s would perform against Indian Brahmos & Agni missiles..


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## The Eagle

dadeechi said:


> It is said that China procured S-400s to make HQ-9s exceed the performance of S-400s.
> 
> Interesting to see how Pakistan's HQ-16s & HQ-9s would perform against Indian Brahmos & Agni missiles..



Well procurement are based upon requirements and threat so it is possible that those are not the systems as what is being told in brochure but are produced as per need after necessary changes and upgrades hence will result in better versions. 

Rest about interesting part, at first, I wouldn't wish for the day may come but as having no other option, indeed the systems will be proved as per tactics however, a Battle ground at PDF with available data will be enough for fanboys.

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## IceCold

Technogaianist said:


> Take the money you'd spend on buying, arming, training for and maintaining a new aircraft and invest that money into the JF-17 program and make it more capable:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17 Block III, there's your new aircraft.


No matter how much we invest on JF-17 it will still remain a point defense fighter and still will lack on several aspects. For example its limited range and payload capacity. The lack of a more powerful radar like AESA due to limited cooling space in the nose cone. Another problem is due to lower landing gear, it cannot accommodate RAAD. To offset that it needs to be accommodated on a wing station. There is a reason airforce around the globe invest in different platforms, why should it be any different for PAF? Yes money is an issue but with economy getting better new options need to be looked at and if possible inducted in limited numbers.


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## Hassan Guy

IceCold said:


> No matter how much we invest on JF-17 it will still remain a point defense fighter and still will lack on several aspects. For example its limited range and payload capacity. The lack of a more powerful radar like AESA due to limited cooling space in the nose cone. Another problem is due to lower landing gear, it cannot accommodate RAAD. To offset that it needs to be accommodated on a wing station. There is a reason airforce around the globe invest in different platforms, why should it be any different for PAF? Yes money is an issue but with economy getting better new options need to be looked at and if possible inducted in limited numbers.


Yeah, the JF-17 isn't on par with Su-30mki, rafale, and others. 
Unless they redsign the airframe adding more avionics won't add much.


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## ghauri05

wiseone2 said:


> the technologies are getting more complex


so were they not complex for americans??? yes they were ..but we have sen in past Russians have caught up with americans may be with a slighter delay....n chinese have found some solution to fill their needs..so they will do this time too..this may take some time...but actually chinese, for the very first time have behaved in a proactive manner with the beginning of J-20 program..in the past...their programs to cacth up with russia and usa have initiated much later



Hassan Guy said:


> Saudi, Kuwait and Oman have ordered the Tranche 3 Eurofighter, It's becoming a joke these countries have better aircraft then Pakistan at this point.


Yes Indeed.PAF trains these countries n they have better fighters than us...that tells something horribly went wrong with PAF's planning for procurement.

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## CHI RULES

pakistanipower said:


> except point3 all those goodies are in the block-3, DSI limit aircraft speed with in mach 2 and top speed doesn't matter it accelerations that matters


Top speed gives idea of avg sustained speed, further DSI is already implicated in j10B has max speed of Mach 2.2.


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## Ultima Thule

CHI RULES said:


> Top speed gives idea of avg sustained speed, further DSI is already implicated in j10B has max speed of Mach 2.2.


bro where is stated that J-10B has a speed of 2.2, F-35 has huge 43000 lbs engine with a top speed of Just 1.6 mach so what your point, are you want to thunder to super cruise? sustained speed for most of fighter jet are subsonic, so what so special in sustained speed?


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## CHI RULES

Hassan Guy said:


> Yeah, the JF-17 isn't on par with Su-30mki, rafale, and others.
> Unless they redsign the airframe adding more avionics won't add much.



The main role of JF17 is and shall be air to air combat for which adding more avionics in current form shall do much. i.e in case of war our JF17s may have to face Indian long range SAMS even within our territory along with next gen BVRs in case of long range encounters which can only be countered only JF17s will/shall have credible next gen defensive suit, further they have to counter superior jamming capabilities. They should have a capable IRST which may prove to be challenging in countering SU30s, Rafael and upgraded Mig 29s. So far we can consider JF17 in category of 4th gen fighters but on edge if we wan't to make it a backbone then we should have to induct hi tech gadgets in block-III.

On other hand I am sure that PAF aeronautical engineers may have drawn next gen fighter designs, but to start production first we should have to build infrastructure which will come in shape of aeronautical city being started to be built by PAF. The project after completion will provide not only required manpower from top to bottom but also be fruitful in R&D. After it;s completion we may see in decade the production of domestic AESA radars, IRSTs, stealth paints/materials, testing labs and even AAMs production.

It is reality that many gadgets of 4th gen JF17 are imported from China then how we may start production of 5th gen jet now.

PAF in order to maintain parity should induct 5th gen fighter in next 5-6 years, irrelevant whether IAF inducts 5th gen jet or not. We have two paths one is to indulge in production of J31 as it is already in final stages, we may get our manpower trained by sending them to China and may get true 5th gen jet by comparatively lesser financial sharing and lesser time span i.e 2-3 Years. On other hand if we go for Turkish TFX program then we will have to wait longer as it is in initial stages and may take ten years to shape

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## Ultima Thule

CHI RULES said:


> PAF in order to maintain parity should induct 5th gen fighter in next 5-6 years, irrelevant whether IAF inducts 5th gen jet or not. We have two paths one is to indulge in production of J31 as it is already in final stages, we may get our manpower trained by sending them to China and may get true 5th gen jet by comparatively lesser financial sharing and lesser time span i.e 2-3 Years. On other hand if we go for Turkish TFX program then we will have to wait longer as it is in initial stages and may take ten years to shape


too early we have no threat from any country to induct 5th gen that early and by the way J-31 is not in final stages, heard about J-31 v2 and also J-31 is 10 year away, TFX 15 to 20 year away


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## CHI RULES

pakistanipower said:


> bro where is stated that J-10B has a speed of 2.2, F-35 has huge 43000 lbs engine with a top speed of Just 1.6 mach so what your point, are you want to thunder super cruise? sustained speed for most of fighter jet are subsonic, so what so special in sustained speed?


Bro I have taken the data from net as we have no way to have any official data on Chinese Jets untill and unless they are exported. F35 is also much heavier if it has powerful engines along with superior gadgets. The given speed of J31 is also Mach 1.8 but 5th gen fighters counter their lack of speed with stealth and superior gadgetry.



pakistanipower said:


> too early we have no threat from any country to induct 5th gen that early and by the way J-31 is not in final stages, heard about J-31 v2 and also J-31 is 10 year away, TFX 15 to 20 year away


If you quoted time span about J31 is true then only Allah may save us after induction of Rafaels and Pak Fa.

We have seen impacts for not inducting required arsenal in 1971 war what happened to our PN ships and Oil depots of KCHI. As we had no Anti ship Missiles our counter defense measures. Now if we will not induct modern jets in time then we may face trouble from both Sea and Air. PNs SAMs are pathetic.

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## Ultima Thule

CHI RULES said:


> If you quoted time span about J31 is true then only Allah may save us after induction of Rafaels and Pak Fa.


Bro concern RAFALE first, FFGA will not come to India atleast 2022 to 2025, look at the development speed of PAK-FA


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## PakEye

*بوسہ دیتے نہیں، اور دل پہ ہے ہر لحظہ نگاہ
جی میں کہتے ہیں کہ" مفت آئے تو مال اچّھا ہے"
دل کے خوش رکھنے کو ،غالبؔ ،یہ خیال اچّھا ہے
*​

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## CHI RULES

pakistanipower said:


> Bro concern RAFALE first, FFGA will not come to India atleast 2022 to 2025, look at the development speed of PAK-FA



We require superior fighter even to counter large number of 4-4.5th gen fighters of IAF. IAF has inducted Meteor and Russian origin next gen BVR missiles having longer no escape zone along with HOBS WVR, meanwhile we are relying on AMRAAM-C5. AIM-9L, SD10 and other older WVRs.


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## Ultima Thule

CHI RULES said:


> We require superior fighter even to counter large number of 4-4.5th gen fighters of IAF. IAF has inducted Meteor and Russian origin next gen BVR missiles having longer no escape zone along with HOBS WVR, meanwhile we are relying on AMRAAM-C5. AIM-9L, SD10 and other older WVRs.


There are two options for PAF either go to Typhoon under 100 or J-10 C 100+ and yes WVR and HOBS We are also 2 options German IRSTT or South African A-Darter as for meteor is 3 years away, we should consider PL-15 and PL-21 Chinese BVR


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## wiseone2

pakistanipower said:


> There are two options for PAF either go to Typhoon under 100 or J-10 C 100+ and yes WVR and HOBS We are also 2 options German IRSTT or South African A-Darter as for meteor is 3 years away, we should consider PL-15 and PL-21 Chinese BVR


is typhoon even an option for paf ?

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## dani958

try to get from usa f 15 se sthelth version very good plane
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F-15SE_Silent_Eagle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15E_Strike_Eagle

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## Zarvan

wiseone2 said:


> is typhoon even an option for paf ?


Yes it is an option along with SU-35


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## Rupeshkumar

You can't afford Typhoon and won't get SU35. Only Chinese jets are option for you...


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## danger007

Zarvan said:


> Yes it is an option along with SU-35



Do you still believe on Su 35 deal


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## Zain Malik

Zarvan said:


> Yes it is an option along with SU-35


Su-35 chapter closed bhai 
Look i recently tagged you in athread.. must read

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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Do you still believe on Su 35 deal


he think blindly about it, no chance that we will get Su-35 in near future



Rupeshkumar said:


> You can't afford Typhoon and won't get SU35. Only Chinese jets are option for you...


it our concern what to buy and what not yours but yes Typhoon has a less chance


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## Rahim Malik

Long live pakistan


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## WarFariX

Rupeshkumar said:


> You can't afford Typhoon and won't get SU35. Only Chinese jets are option for you...



used typhoons cost 4million us dollar per unit -.- plus upgrades to t3 standard will make overall cost 60 million per unit


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## WarFariX

@CHI RULES bro my source from AVIC says that mass production will begin in 2022 and j31 v2.0 will be completely ready by 2018 and engine completion will be done till 2019


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## A.P. Richelieu

dani958 said:


> try to get from usa f 15 se sthelth version very good plane
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F-15SE_Silent_Eagle
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15E_Strike_Eagle




PAK cannot afford to buy F-16, and F-15 is much more expensive.



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> used typhoons cost 4million us dollar per unit -.- plus upgrades to t3 standard will make overall cost 60 million per unit


Used Typhoons Tranche 1 without upgrades was offered at $50-60M with training & logistics 1-2 years ago.
Upgraded to T3 would make them much more expensive


----------



## The Accountant

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> used typhoons cost 4million us dollar per unit -.- plus upgrades to t3 standard will make overall cost 60 million per unit


How much remaining life these used typhoons will have ? Does this remaining life justify the infrastructure cost of inducting an entirely new platform worthwhile?

If there is a an entirely new platform then it has to be new planes not second hand ...

Mirrage and f-16 are different story as whatever we get we dont have to incur additional cost other than upgrading ...

induction cost of new platform would be in billions of usd ...

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## Ababeel

The 2 most important requirement of Pakistan in current scenario must be:
1. Advanced long range air defence system
2. Advance 5th generation stealth Fighter Jet.


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## Ultima Thule

Ababeel said:


> The 2 most important requirement of Pakistan in current scenario must be:
> 1. Advanced long range air defence system
> 2. Advance 5th generation stealth Fighter Jet.


first one is correct second one is not we will not need 5th gen jets immediately


----------



## Zarvan

danger007 said:


> Do you still believe on Su 35 deal


Yes because our officers are in Russia discussing the deal. PAF also has contact Government to release money now soon you would hear about the deal


----------



## Farah Sohail

Zarvan said:


> Yes because our officers are in Russia discussing the deal. PAF also has contact Government to release money now soon you would hear about the deal



Indian lobby is too strong in Russia to let this deal finalise... While Russia does seem interested in selling military equipment to Pak, i think it will be small scale weapons, for some itme to come......not latest fighter aircrafts, anytime soon

What do u think abt Eurofighter typhoons? I think they are too expensive for PAF... Also not even a single article suggesting tht Pak is even considering it....


----------



## danger007

Zarvan said:


> Yes because our officers are in Russia discussing the deal. PAF also has contact Government to release money now soon you would hear about the deal




How many jets? Weapon package.. any tailored made options or just as it is .. I come to know from your kremlin source .. that you are going to opt for production line in Pakistan instead of buying from Russia..

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Yes because our officers are in Russia discussing the deal. PAF also has contact Government to release money now soon you would hear about the deal


how do know they are discussing Su-35?, in your wet dream and wishful thinking


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## Zarvan

danger007 said:


> How many jets? Weapon package.. any tailored made options or just as it is .. I come to know from your kremlin source .. that you are going to opt for production line in Pakistan instead of buying from Russia..


Senate was told PAF is looking to buy 40 High End Jets and the name they were told are SU-35 and EuroFighter. @Farah Sohail Russia knows How to deal with Indians. They didn't started negotiations just like that. They considered every aspect of it. They are also offering us T-90 MS and Ratnik future soldier program and also MI-28 attack helicopters.



pakistanipower said:


> how do know they are discussing Su-35?, in your wet dream and wishful thinking


PAF told senate they are going buy 40 High End Air Crafts and the name told were SU-35 or Euro Fighter. So ask PAF if they are lying than why they lied to senate. Many things are happening behind closed doors. Russia is also offering various other weapons including T-90 and MI-28 Attack Helicopter and Ratnik future soldier program.


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## Army research

Zarvan said:


> Senate was told PAF is looking to buy 40 High End Jets and the name they were told are SU-35 and EuroFighter. @Farah Sohail Russia knows How to deal with Indians. They didn't started negotiations just like that. They considered every aspect of it. They are also offering us T-90 MS and Ratnik future soldier program and also MI-28 attack helicopters.
> 
> 
> PAF told senate they are going buy 40 High End Air Crafts and the name told were SU-35 or Euro Fighter. So ask PAF if they are lying than why they lied to senate. Many things are happening behind closed doors. Russia is also offering various other weapons including T-90 and MI-28 Attack Helicopter and Ratnik future soldier program.


How sure are you about this I mean come on but if you could be right about scar in November then I'd believe this too


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## Farah Sohail

Zarvan said:


> Senate was told PAF is looking to buy 40 High End Jets and the name they were told are SU-35 and EuroFighter. @Farah Sohail Russia knows How to deal with Indians. They didn't started negotiations just like that. They considered every aspect of it. They are also offering us T-90 MS and Ratnik future soldier program and also MI-28 attack helicopters.
> 
> 
> PAF told senate they are going buy 40 High End Air Crafts and the name told were SU-35 or Euro Fighter. So ask PAF if they are lying than why they lied to senate. Many things are happening behind closed doors. Russia is also offering various other weapons including T-90 and MI-28 Attack Helicopter and Ratnik future soldier program.



Can u provide the link, please..of tht senate ..committee?..where PAF said this?


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> PAF told senate they are going buy 40 High End Air Crafts and the name told were SU-35 or Euro Fighter. So ask PAF if they are lying than why they lied to senate. Many things are happening behind closed doors. Russia is also offering various other weapons including T-90 and MI-28 Attack Helicopter and Ratnik future soldier program.


how do you that PAF told senate that those are SU-35 or EF-2000 your spies in PAF told you that toooooo much assumptions by you you have no logic just assuming


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## Zarvan

Army research said:


> How sure are you about this I mean come on but if you could be right about scar in November then I'd believe this too


I know few things and people. Recent meeting of Air Force Boss Sohail Aman and Ishaq dar was related to this. As for wishful thinking @pakistanipower bro Russia offered us MI-28 back in IDEAS 2014 and also 3 other Air Defence systems and also Ratnik future soldier program all this have been reported by other members here and also MOD and Russia is offering SU-35 for quite some time now. You want to remain in denial your choice but I know that I am right here


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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> Senate was told PAF is looking to buy 40 High End Jets and the name they were told are SU-35 and EuroFighter. @Farah Sohail Russia knows How to deal with Indians. They didn't started negotiations just like that. They considered every aspect of it. They are also offering us T-90 MS and Ratnik future soldier program and also MI-28 attack helicopters.
> 
> 
> PAF told senate they are going buy 40 High End Air Crafts and the name told were SU-35 or Euro Fighter. So ask PAF if they are lying than why they lied to senate. Many things are happening behind closed doors. Russia is also offering various other weapons including T-90 and MI-28 Attack Helicopter and Ratnik future soldier program.



In Zarvan, We Trust.

is there a reason things are being kept under curtains and not coming out openly in media?

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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> how do you that PAF told senate that those are SU-35 or EF-2000 your spies in PAF told you that toooooo much assumptions by you you have no logic just assuming


Yes I have my spies all over the place. The 40 Fighter Jet was reported in media names were not told but I am telling you names. I seriously give a dam wehter you want to believe it or not but our officers are in Russia for deal.

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## The Accountant

danger007 said:


> How many jets? Weapon package.. any tailored made options or just as it is .. I come to know from your kremlin source .. that you are going to opt for production line in Pakistan instead of buying from Russia..


This is first time an indian is confirming this news ... I hope its not sarstic ...

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## Zarvan

Sarge said:


> In Zarvan, We Trust.
> 
> is there a reason things are being kept under curtains and not coming out openly in media?


Yes we like to keep most things secret now they are shown on media only after everything is final. Some are told before

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## Shakuni & Ravan

Zarvan said:


> Yes I have my spies all over the place. The 40 Fighter Jet was reported in media names were not told but I am telling you names. I seriously give a dam wehter you want to believe it or not but our officers are in Russia for deal.



_CEO of Russia’s ROSTEC Corp_ Sergey Chemezov _says_

Journalist*-And military sales, given reports Russia may consider selling Su-35s in the future to Pakistan?*

CEO-We are not delivering any military aircraft to Pakistan. We have made deliveries of transport helicopters and that contract has been completed. No contracts or plans for any other military-related equipment to Pakistan exist for present.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...r-pakistan-sergey-chemezov/article9225218.ece


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## The Accountant

Zarvan said:


> Yes we like to keep most things secret now they are shown on media only after everything is final. Some are told before


Zawran bhaiya if this news is true to meri taraf sy apko 1 dinner Treat on confirmation ... 

By the way although these type of deals take time but how long will it take to sign an agreement or MoU to atleast on broader aspects of the deal ???


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> yeah whatever! you think you have no base just assuming go live in your fantasy world and fools paradise


I have been proved right several times before. So you want to remain in denial your choice but Russia offcials have even briefed our Military Officers on various defence weapons Russia is offering including MI-28 and Air Defence Systems and Tanks I am amused you haven't read those threads








pakistanipower said:


> he lives in his fools paradise and fantasy world ignore him


It you Mr who are in denial mode. Although everything was reported on this forum. For some hilarious reason you are living in denial. Don't worry I was made fun of even than when I told people that we are working on mini nuclear plant for our submarines. And now Mr Oscar thread has confirmed. So I am right on this one also you are free to live in denial.


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> I have been proved right several times before. So you want to remain in denial your choice but Russia offcials have even briefed our Military Officers on various defence weapons Russia is offering including MI-28 and Air Defence Systems and Tanks I am amused you haven't read those threads


Pakistan & Russian relations not so strong to go direct to Su-35 not possible Russian & Pakistan positive relations has just started, and what Russian will do pressure from India, not possible the deal is not possible


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## danger007

Zarvan said:


> Senate was told PAF is looking to buy 40 High End Jets and the name they were told are SU-35 and EuroFighter. @Farah Sohail Russia knows How to deal with Indians. They didn't started negotiations just like that. They considered every aspect of it. They are also offering us T-90 MS and Ratnik future soldier program and also MI-28 attack helicopters.
> 
> 
> PAF told senate they are going buy 40 High End Air Crafts and the name told were SU-35 or Euro Fighter. So ask PAF if they are lying than why they lied to senate. Many things are happening behind closed doors. Russia is also offering various other weapons including T-90 and MI-28 Attack Helicopter and Ratnik future soldier program.




I make fun of certain person but not interested make jokes on Countries. But you seems to make joke of your self along with your nation in the name of so called source..

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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> Pakistan & Russian relations not so strong to go direct to Su-35 not possible Russian & Pakistan positive relations has just started, and what Russian will do pressure from India, not possible the deal is not possible


Russia gives a dam about strong relations. Russia has issues with Malaysia and Indonesia but they are selling them weapons also. Turkey recently killed their pilot and now they are offering Turkey Air Defence with TOT. Also offering other weapons. Putin and Russia are not Obama and USA. You pay Russians you would get any weapon you want.


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## Signalian

pakistanipower said:


> he lives in his fools paradise and fantasy world ignore him


no insults please.

you dont agree with what he says , thats acceptable. But dont degrade him like this.

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## Zarvan

danger007 said:


> I make fun of certain person but not interested make jokes on Countries. But you seems to make joke of your self along with your nation in the name of so called source..


PAF told this to senate bro. I also told people about Pakistan working on mini nuke for nuclear submarine. Every body made fun of me and guess what Mr Oscar confirmed it. I also told people that AK 2 resembles a little bit to Leopard Tank and now Dazzler is confirming it. My problem is I start telling people about things months before something comes on news. Manymods know about those things but they choose to remain quite and I like to speak little too much. But many things I told here in them my source was also MODS of this forum

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## The Accountant

Shakuni & Ravan said:


> _CEO of Russia’s ROSTEC Corp_ Sergey Chemezov _says_
> 
> Journalist*-And military sales, given reports Russia may consider selling Su-35s in the future to Pakistan?*
> 
> CEO-We are not delivering any military aircraft to Pakistan. We have made deliveries of transport helicopters and that contract has been completed. No contracts or plans for any other military-related equipment to Pakistan exist for present.
> 
> 
> http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...r-pakistan-sergey-chemezov/article9225218.ece


Sir with all due respect not from a fan boy prospective but even if think independently what else do you expect russia ? Deal is not final yet ... Any party can backoff from the deal ... Why to annoy india when nothing is in hand ... Think realistically what would you have done if your friends enemy want to have a commercial deal with you ... Which is in your interest but your friend might get bit annoyed but your friend is also dealing with your enemies since quiet a long ime ... Will you let him know about the deal even before confirmation or will you wait to get confirmation ...

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> I have been proved right several times before. So you want to remain in denial your choice but Russia offcials have even briefed our Military Officers on various defence weapons Russia is offering including MI-28 and Air Defence Systems and Tanks I am amused you haven't read those threads
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It you Mr who are in denial mode. Although everything was reported on this forum. For some hilarious reason you are living in denial. Don't worry I was made fun of even than when I told people that we are working on mini nuclear plant for our submarines. And now Mr Oscar thread has confirmed. So I am right on this one also you are free to live in denial.


you believe in news channel its your choice you in denial mode not me your worthless and baseless arguments without prove nothing  not even single senior member like 
@Oscar, @waz, @Bilal Khan 777 and other beleives you, *you have a Su-35 Phobia*

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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> you believe in news channel its your choice you in denial mode not me your worthless and baseless arguments without prove nothing  not even single senior member like
> @Oscar, @waz, @Bilal Khan 777 and other beleives you, *you have a Su-35 Phobia*


Bro I told about the SU-35 before PAF briefed Senate about this. Senate was told a month ago and I was telling this since few months back and Mr Haris Khan of other Pakistani Defence forum who also writes for great defence magazines have also told this that Pakistan is looking to buy 40 High End Air Crafts so you are more than free to live in denial. But PAF is looking for a Fighter Jet and 40 of them and most favorite choices are SU-35 and EuroFighter. So please be in denial you are acting just like those members who made fun of me when I told them about mini nuclear plant being made for nuclear submarine so keep laughing soon I would be laughing on you and eating my beloved lunch

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Bro I told about the SU-35 before PAF briefed Senate about this. Senate was told a month ago and I was telling this since few months back and Mr Haris Khan of other Pakistani Defence forum who also writes for great defence magazines have also told this that Pakistan is looking to buy *40 High End Air Crafts* so you are more than free to live in denial. But PAF is looking for a Fighter Jet and 40 of them and most favorite choices are SU-35 and EuroFighter. So please be in denial you are acting just like those members who made fun of me when I told them about mini nuclear plant being made for nuclear submarine so keep laughing soon I would be laughing on you and eating my beloved lunch


 i heard same news but without specific aircraft mentions, you add EF-2000 and Su-35 by yourselfno one believes you


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## danger007

Zarvan said:


> Russia gives a dam about strong relations. Russia has issues with Malaysia and Indonesia but they are selling them weapons also. Turkey recently killed their pilot and now they are offering Turkey Air Defence with TOT. Also offering other weapons. Putin and Russia are not Obama and USA. You pay Russians you would get any weapon you want.





You can't compare one state to another.. Russia sells weapon to China as well as Vietnam too.. but the case both countries have different posture.


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## Basel

pakistanipower said:


> There are two options for PAF either go to Typhoon under 100 or J-10 C 100+ and yes WVR and HOBS We are also 2 options German IRSTT or South African A-Darter as for meteor is 3 years away, we should consider PL-15 and PL-21 Chinese BVR



Mr. Head Banger how can Pakistan buy 100 EFTs?

Pakistan is trying in manage at least 40 advance 4.5 gen jets with difficulties how they can go for 100 EFTs?

In that kind of money PAF can go for at least two squadrons of F-35s.



A.P. Richelieu said:


> PAK cannot afford to buy F-16, and F-15 is much more expensive.
> 
> 
> Used Typhoons Tranche 1 without upgrades was offered at $50-60M with training & logistics 1-2 years ago.
> Upgraded to T3 would make them much more expensive



How capable is trench-1 compared to F-16 block-52+, upgraded MKI, Mig-29 & M2Ks?


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## untitled

pakistanipower said:


> *you have a Su-35 Phobia*



He is anything but afraid of Su-35s


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> i heard same news but without specific aircraft mentions, you add EF-2000 and Su-35 by yourselfno one believes you


Yes I added SU-35 and EF-2000 because PAF told this to senate I knew PAF was about to brief senate on this issue two days before they gave senate briefing so please remain in denial until INSHALLAH soon I would be proven right again.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> Yes I added SU-35 and EF-2000 because PAF told this to senate I knew PAF was about to brief senate on this issue two days before they gave senate briefing so please remain in denial until INSHALLAH soon I would be proven right again.
> View attachment 343942


InshAllah.

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## A.P. Richelieu

Basel said:


> Mr. Head Banger how can Pakistan buy 100 EFTs?
> 
> Pakistan is trying in manage at least 40 advance 4.5 gen jets with difficulties how they can go for 100 EFTs?
> 
> In that kind of money PAF can go for at least two squadrons of F-35s.
> 
> 
> 
> How capable is trench-1 compared to F-16 block-52+, upgraded MKI, Mig-29 & M2Ks?



Tranche 1 is basically air to air.
Air to ground is limited until Tranche 3


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## Army research

Those mocking @Zarvan should know that all sources saying Russia not selling planes 'at present' take an example Russia sells to both China and India enemies of each other, strong allies of Russia , Vietnam too , Russia economy hit bad they need money and I think after giving s-400 to India they can justify su35 sale and India pressure won't matter it's not like they can leave Russia and join us bloc especially due to ongoing projects Indians think about it and due to Indian pressure Russians can also increase price of su 35

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Yes I added SU-35 and EF-2000 because PAF told this to senate I knew PAF was about to brief senate on this issue two days before they gave senate briefing so please remain in denial until INSHALLAH soon I would be proven right again.
> View attachment 343942


PAF doesn't specify any jet to senate but said *Pakistan is looking to buy 40 High End Air Crafts* this is your own words from your previous post, you fabricated this news to your own liking and disliking, *you are funniest senior member on PDF*


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## Army research

pakistanipower said:


> PAF doesn't specify any jet to senate but said *Pakistan is looking to buy 40 High End Air Crafts* this is your own words from your previous post, you fabricated this news to your own liking and disliking, *you are funniest senior member on PDF*


Sir jee not that I agree hundred percent with zarvan but if they told Senate then they do have money and right su35 fits in best refer to my post above


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> PAF doesn't specify any jet to senate but said *Pakistan is looking to buy 40 High End Air Crafts* this is your own words from your previous post, you fabricated this news to your own liking and disliking, *you are funniest senior member on PDF*


This 40 Fighter Jet was also reported by Haris Khan. Mr Haris Khan writes for defence news and many other international well reputed defence magazines he has been quoted several times by Janes also. Yes PAF is looking for 40 Fighter Jets and this exactly what senate was told by PAF and I have my own sources which told me about 40 Fighter Jets and I knew about 40 Jets before senate was told by PAF. So I am only amused at kids like you

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## egodoc222

http://www.aninews.in/newsdetail-MT...military-aircraft-to-pak-sergey-chemezov.html


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## Ultima Thule

Army research said:


> Sir jee not that I agree hundred percent with zarvan but if they told Senate then they do have money and right su35 fits in best refer to my post above


but he said in his last post* PAF want to buy 40 high end Fighter jets* PAF doesn't to specify any particular jet in the front of senate he assume that it is Su-35 or Typhoon it could be any jet ranges to new F-16 to J-10C, J-11D or might be a stealth fighter



Zarvan said:


> This 40 Fighter Jet was also reported by Haris Khan. Mr Haris Khan writes for defence news and many other international well reputed defence magazines he has been quoted several times by Janes also. Yes PAF is looking for 40 Fighter Jets and this exactly what senate was told by PAF and I have my own sources which told me about 40 Fighter Jets and I knew about 40 Jets before senate was told by PAF. So I am only amused at kids like you


sir i am not denying PAF didn't told its needs in the front of senate but as you said in your previous post PAF didn't specify any particular fighter jet in the front of senate just said that *PAF want to buy 40 high end Fighter jets* it could be any jet ranges to new F-16, EF-2000, Su-35, JAS-39 Grippen, J-10C or J-11 series


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## New World

pakistanipower said:


> but he said in his last post* PAF want to buy 40 high end Fighter jets* PAF doesn't to specify any particular jet in the front of senate he assume that it is Su-35 or Typhoon it could be any jet ranges to new F-16 to J-10C, J-11D or might be a stealth fighter
> 
> 
> sir i am not denying PAF didn't told its needs in the front of senate but as you said in your previous post PAF didn't specify any particular fighter jet in the front of senate just said that *PAF want to buy 40 high end Fighter jets* it could be any jet ranges to new F-16, EF-2000, Su-35, JAS-39 Grippen, J-10C or J-11 series


yes, it would be anyone but 
sartaj aziz said that Pakistan will buy non-american jet which means that new F-16,F-15,F-18 and JAS-39 Grippen is out of the question.
Sir Haris Khan said that these jets will not be the chinese and or 5th gen, so J-10 and J-11 are out of question.

Remaining jets are EFT,Su-35 and Rafale.
as Rafale is going to India, which left only two options

EF Typhoon and Su-35..
use some common sex.

@Zarvan may be or may be not right about the Senate Briefing as we don't know his source, but what @Zarvan say comes true mostly.


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> but he said in his last post* PAF want to buy 40 high end Fighter jets* PAF doesn't to specify any particular jet in the front of senate he assume that it is Su-35 or Typhoon it could be any jet ranges to new F-16 to J-10C, J-11D or might be a stealth fighter
> 
> 
> sir i am not denying PAF didn't told its needs in the front of senate but as you said in your previous post PAF didn't specify any particular fighter jet in the front of senate just said that *PAF want to buy 40 high end Fighter jets* it could be any jet ranges to new F-16, EF-2000, Su-35, JAS-39 Grippen, J-10C or J-11 series


I trust my source specially when I was told about this 40 Jets before Senate was briefed and also Mr Haris Khan told people than I am trusting my source on the names he has told me. J-10 C no way and J-11 won't come until Russia allows China to sell them. F-16 again not happening due USA games as for Grippen !!! Sweden after SAAB is not interested in selling us weapons. They come up with human rights crap. Now EuroFighter is great and easy option due to two reasons that both Italy and Britain are trying to sell use those and our Air Chief even flew one. SU-35 was offered by Russia and what I know is our officers are in Russia discussing the deal.



egodoc222 said:


> http://www.aninews.in/newsdetail-MT...military-aircraft-to-pak-sergey-chemezov.html


Yes Yes off course our officers are in Russia discussing deal with Ghosts


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## Farah Sohail

Zarvan said:


> I trust my source specially when I was told about this 40 Jets before Senate was briefed and also Mr Haris Khan told people than I am trusting my source on the names he has told me. J-10 C no way and J-11 won't come until Russia allows China to sell them. F-16 again not happening due USA games as for Grippen !!! Sweden after SAAB is not interested in selling us weapons. They come up with human rights crap. Now EuroFighter is great and easy option due to two reasons that both Italy and Britain are trying to sell use those and our Air Chief even flew one. SU-35 was offered by Russia and what I know is our officers are in Russia discussing the deal.
> 
> 
> Yes Yes off course our officers are in Russia discussing deal with Ghosts



But Eurofighter is too expensive....i dont think PAF will go for it... They didnt even want to pay full proce for 8 f 16 block 52..... I think PAF will want to go for a cheaper option than eurofighter... Maybe a chinese option...


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> I trust my source specially when I was told about this 40 Jets before Senate was briefed and also Mr Haris Khan told people than I am trusting my source on the names he has told me. J-10 C no way and J-11 won't come until Russia allows China to sell them. F-16 again not happening due USA games as for Grippen !!! Sweden after SAAB is not interested in selling us weapons. They come up with human rights crap. Now EuroFighter is great and easy option due to two reasons that both Italy and Britain are trying to sell use those and our Air Chief even flew one. SU-35 was offered by Russia and what I know is our officers are in Russia discussing the deal.


So you mean we have only two options left Typhoon and Su-35, Ok sir you win i lose and pardon me for insulting you


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> So you mean we have only two options left Typhoon and Su-35, Ok sir you win i lose and pardon me for insulting you


New F-16 is little difficult although I have heard USA has recently approved 8 new F-16 for us but these are not those high end Air Craft which we wanted still we would keep buying old F-16. Rafale won't come due to India is buying them and Sweden is not ready to sell us Grippen and also Gripen is not what we require. J-11 D great jet but would need Russian permission and Russia would prefer to make themselves thus offering us SU-35 and EuroFighter is being pushed by both Italy which don't like India much and Britain. @Farah Sohail The kind of projects we are running and weapons we are buying if we look at our budget we don't have money for any of them but I have serious feeling that this 46 billion dollar CPEC is the economic part is announced I think there is some military package also and Arabs are also providing help. Because number of projects we are running no way we can afford them in 8 billion dollars.


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> I trust my source specially when I was told about this 40 Jets before Senate was briefed and also Mr Haris Khan told people than I am trusting my source on the names he has told me. J-10 C no way and J-11 won't come until Russia allows China to sell them. F-16 again not happening due USA games as for Grippen !!! Sweden after SAAB is not interested in selling us weapons. They come up with human rights crap. Now EuroFighter is great and easy option due to two reasons that both Italy and Britain are trying to sell use those and our Air Chief even flew one. SU-35 was offered by Russia and what I know is our officers are in Russia discussing the deal.


Is any hint that we discussing Typhoon with UK or Itlay


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> Is any hint that we discussing Typhoon with UK or Itlay


Well biggest hint is our Air Chief was seen flying Euro Fighter. Also even when Nawaz became PM and David Cameron came to Pakistan even than he offered Euro Fighter and also there Destroyer Type 45.

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> New F-16 is little difficult although I have heard USA has recently approved 8 new F-16 for us but these are not those high end Air Craft which we wanted still we would keep buying old F-16. Rafale won't come due to India is buying them and Sweden is not ready to sell us Grippen and also Gripen is not what we require. J-11 D great jet but would need Russian permission and Russia would prefer to make themselves thus offering us SU-35 and EuroFighter is being pushed by both Italy which don't like India much and Britain. @Farah Sohail The kind of projects we are running and weapons we are buying if we look at our budget we don't have money for any of them but I have serious feeling that this 46 billion dollar CPEC is the economic part is announced I think there is some military package also and Arabs are also providing help. Because number of projects we are running no way we can afford them in 8 billion dollars.


Why not J-10 C is there is any deficiency in the design of J-10 C something else


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> Why not J-10 C is there is any deficiency in the design of J-10 C


Bro I only report on news I don't have much info on fighter jets I mean How good or bad they are ? J-10 C can be explained by @Windjammer


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## Farah Sohail

Zarvan said:


> New F-16 is little difficult although I have heard USA has recently approved 8 new F-16 for us but these are not those high end Air Craft which we wanted still we would keep buying old F-16. Rafale won't come due to India is buying them and Sweden is not ready to sell us Grippen and also Gripen is not what we require. J-11 D great jet but would need Russian permission and Russia would prefer to make themselves thus offering us SU-35 and EuroFighter is being pushed by both Italy which don't like India much and Britain. @Farah Sohail The kind of projects we are running and weapons we are buying if we look at our budget we don't have money for any of them but I have serious feeling that this 46 billion dollar CPEC is the economic part is announced I think there is some military package also and Arabs are also providing help. Because number of projects we are running no way we can afford them in 8 billion dollars.



Why would Arabs help us? Arabs are already upset with us, for not joining Yemen war.. Since yemen war, UAE, has openly gone into Indias lap..their prince would be chief guest on indian republic day... As far as Saudi Arabia is concerned, although they have not publicly shown reservation to Pak, but we know tht even they are not quite happy with us, although things have started to become normal once again...but still i dont think they would help with money in buying new aircarfts... As far as CPEC is concerned, it will still take time to materialise fully..so investment will not come so quickly... So if we want 40 eurofighters, tht will ask for huge money, which i dont thinkPakistan can afford

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## Ultima Thule

Thank you very much sir for clearing me and again pardon me


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## Zarvan

Farah Sohail said:


> Why would Arabs help us? Arabs are already upset with us, for not joining Yemen war.. Since yemen war, UAE, has openly gone into Indias lap..their prince would be chief guest on indian republic day... As far as Saudi Arabia is concerned, although they have not publicly shown reservation to Pak, but we know tht even they are not quite happy with us, although things have started to become normal once again...but still i dont think they would help with money in buying new aircarfts... As far as CPEC is concerned, it will still take time to materialise fully..so investment will not come so quickly... So if we want 40 eurofighters, tht will ask for huge money, which i dont thinkPakistan can afford


Arabs are way to smart. They know after all their security depends on us. Even in UAE Army many are Pakistanis and also they hire people for their intelligence agencies from Pakistan even they made General Shuja Pasha head of their security. We settled the issue of Yemen with them. Saudi Arabia is okay and in fact great and also looking forward to Army Chief heading their Arab League kind of Army or what ever that is. Finally CPEC China is way smart than we think China knows How to protect and paying for few Euro Fighter is not much issue. Secondly if you look at weapons we have bought recently or are buying or planning to buy in future well if you see their costs we cannot afford most of them still we are buying them so money is not that big issue because either we have some secret money which I doubt or some help is coming from friendly countries.


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## Farah Sohail

Zarvan said:


> Arabs are way to smart. They know after all their security depends on us. Even in UAE Army many are Pakistanis and also *they hire people for their intelligence agencies from Pakistan even they made General Shuja Pasha head of their security. We settled the issue of Yemen with them. *Saudi Arabia is okay and in fact great and also looking forward to Army Chief heading their Arab League kind of Army or what ever that is. Finally CPEC China is way smart than we think China knows How to protect and paying for few Euro Fighter is not much issue. Secondly if you look at weapons we have bought recently or are buying or planning to buy in future well if you see their costs we cannot afford most of them still we are buying them so money is not that big issue because either we have some secret money which I doubt or some help is coming from friendly countries.



Regd UAE... They hired Gen Pasha, much before the yemen war.. I think his assignment there had finished, a yr or two back..i think i read it by some journalist tht he had returned to Pak.. If we see, UAE has been openly acting against Pak, since yemen war..they have been cosying up too much with india since yemen war...so no, we havent settlrd issue of yemen, with UAE at least....

Cant say exactly abt saudis... Yes, things seem to have become normal between Pak and Saudis apparently... And also, whats the fate of deal between Gen Raheel and Saudis? I hope, tht he accepts the offer....and then he can also negotiate a better deal for Pakistan with Saudis... If .gen Raheel accepts tht offer, then i think we can see Saudi money coming..if he negotiates a good deal with them... He can take some assurances from them, for Pak... But i am afraid, tht he might reject the offer.. For strategic purposes, he must accept the offer.. We shouldnt let arabs go to .india... We can overcome the damage done, during yemen war, by gen raheel accepting the offer, and tht too without committing any troops...it will be another disaster if Gen Raheel doesnt accept the offer


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## خره مينه لګته وي

Zarvan said:


> I have been proved right several times before. So you want to remain in denial your choice but Russia offcials have even briefed our Military Officers on various defence weapons Russia is offering including MI-28 and Air Defence Systems and Tanks I am amused you haven't read those threads
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It you Mr who are in denial mode. Although everything was reported on this forum. For some hilarious reason you are living in denial. Don't worry I was made fun of even than when I told people that we are working on mini nuclear plant for our submarines. And now Mr Oscar thread has confirmed. So I am right on this one also you are free to live in denial.



you created a thread abt 3,4,5 months ago that Pakistan is about to buy Russian planes and now you are saying that it is in final stage ?? when this final stage will come to an end ?? they are in russian from last 4,5 months ??  doesn't make any sense !! if deal didnt went accordingly and we didn't buy SU-35 in 40+ numbers then i will hold you accountable for that these URDU newspapers are not reliable source stop spreading Conspiracy theories  i'll wait for 5 months and by that time hopefully our officers will be back from Russia  i will create special thread for you i.e after 5 months and i'm already collecting info abt all the Conspiracy theories threads you have started in the last 2,3 years  all these threads are under my *Surveillance *


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## Zarvan

Fawad Masīd said:


> you created a thread abt 3,4,5 months ago that Pakistan is about to buy Russian planes and now you are saying that it is in final stage ?? when this final stage will come to an end ?? they are in russian from last 4,5 months ??  doesn't make any sense !! if deal didnt went accordingly and we didn't buy SU-35 in 40+ numbers then i will hold you accountable for that these URDU newspapers are not reliable source stop spreading Conspiracy theories  i'll wait for 5 months and by that time hopefully our officers will be back from Russia  i will create special thread for you i.e after 5 months and i'm already collecting info abt all the Conspiracy theories threads you have started in the last 2,3 years  all these threads are under my *Surveillance *


Both SU-35 or Euro Fighter can come. In my opinion SU-35 have more chances but recent visit of Italian defence minster could be related to Euro Fighter. Also I heard that our PAF boss is more fan of EF than SU-35. We were little slow because Rafale deal of India was not getting finalized but now as it's final we we would go for an answer soon. Secondly Urdu news papers are not my source I know How big disaster they are when it comes to defence reporting

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## WarFariX

pakistanipower said:


> Pakistan & Russian relations not so strong to go direct to Su-35 not possible Russian & Pakistan positive relations has just started, and what Russian will do pressure from India, not possible the deal is not possible



there is something called limitations mr....u personally attck everyone on defence.pk ..plz try to be under ur skin

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## WarFariX

J10C is a great bvr fighter armed with pl21


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## WarFariX

saudi royal palaces r being guarded by pak army and they know that whenevrr some serious shit happens only pak army will come definitely...i live in arab and i realise this fact...no matter we backed out from yemen but we r helping them in many ways in yemen war better not to explain...every arab here loves pak army


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## advocate abdullah sheikh

this is old information.i think he needs to update himself about paf new plains and developments.


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## Ababeel

pakistanipower said:


> first one is correct second one is not we will not need 5th gen jets immediately


Then how you are going to counter hundreds of Su-30 MKI, Rafael, Mig-29, 5th generation PAKFA, Mirage-2000 etc.

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan should act fast we are getting behind in tech size day by day


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## Ultima Thule

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> there is something called limitations mr....u personally attck everyone on defence.pk ..plz try to be under ur skin


Ok bro


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## WarFariX

Confirmed sources from kamra say that FC-31 will enter PAF in 2022...this is the main objectives of PAF now. ws10 engine with supercruise which will be first tested in 2018 and will be ready by 2020 while the aircraft will be ready by 2018 with all cutting edge avionics. Possible that pak may induct western avionics


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## Ultima Thule

Ababeel said:


> Then how you are going to counter hundreds of Su-30 MKI, Rafael, Mig-29, 5th generation PAKFA, Mirage-2000 etc.


PAK-FA/FFGA will not come to India until 2022 to 2025 look at the development phase of PAK-FA, so no worries, Su-30MKI has huge RCS detected by ground radars and by the AWACS to scramble F-16 fire its AMRAAM to Abort missons by the Su-30MKI, as for Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 we have medium ranged SAMs and looking forward to induct long range SAMs like HQ-9, for the near future we have JF-17 block-3 in pipeline to take care of all other fighter of IAF exception of RAFALE, @Zarvan bahi stated that we are looking EF-2000 or Su-35 to counter RAFALE, so no worries bro


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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakistanipower said:


> PAK-FA/FFGA will not come to India until 2022 to 2025 look at the development phase of PAK-FA, so no worries, Su-30MKI has huge RCS detected by ground radars and by the AWACS to scramble F-16 fire its AMRAAM to Abort missons by the Su-30MKI, as for Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 we have medium ranged SAMs and looking forward to induct long range SAMs like HQ-9, for the near future we have JF-17 block-3 in pipeline to take care of all other fighter of IAF exception of RAFALE, @Zarvan bahi stated that we are looking EF-2000 or Su-35 to counter RAFALE, so no worries bro


PAF is looking for more F-16's. Obama will be giving the permission to the Jordanian ones. 

EFT is air superiority fighter but PAF is looking for multi-role aircraft. If EFT is to be bought then many trench 1 are available. The only air-superiority aircraft that would come to PAF, if things go well can be the TFX, the J31 is also being developed as multi-role aircraft.


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## Basel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF is looking for more F-16's. Obama will be giving the permission to the Jordanian ones.
> 
> EFT is air superiority fighter but PAF is looking for multi-role aircraft. If EFT is to be bought then many trench 1 are available. The only air-superiority aircraft that would come to PAF, if things go well can be the TFX, the J31 is also being developed as multi-role aircraft.



Why Tench-1s are available for sale and who are selling them?


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## danger007

Zarvan said:


> Both SU-35 or Euro Fighter can come. In my opinion SU-35 have more chances but recent visit of Italian defence minster could be related to Euro Fighter. Also I heard that our PAF boss is more fan of EF than SU-35. We were little slow because Rafale deal of India was not getting finalized but now as it's final we we would go for an answer soon. Secondly Urdu news papers are not my source I know How big disaster they are when it comes to defence reporting




Rafale deal done, and you are saying not getting finalised!! Hmm


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## خره مينه لګته وي

Zarvan said:


> Both SU-35 or Euro Fighter can come. In my opinion SU-35 have more chances but recent visit of Italian defence minster could be related to Euro Fighter. Also I heard that our PAF boss is more fan of EF than SU-35. We were little slow because Rafale deal of India was not getting finalized but now as it's final we we would go for an answer soon. Secondly Urdu news papers are not my source I know How big disaster they are when it comes to defence reporting


for EF2000 you need a lot of Money/cash and i believe Germany offered EF to Pakistan in 1990s and Italy + Spain will be willing to sell it to Pakistan but not sure about UK..In 2006 Pakistan was considering several options i.e to buy 30 to 50 EF,Rafeal to counter indian MKI which they were producing it about 10 a year but what happened ?? nothing and till this day we are hearing that Pakistan is going to buy about 30 TO 50 or sometimes 40+ advance Planes !! and then there were reports that The four-nation, European Eurofighter consortium that builds the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet has proposed a $5 billion industrial participation program to Turkey and possibly turkey becoming partner and afterwards promote and sell it to those countries who have a friendly relations with turkey but that never happened..i dont think we are going to buy 40+ EF2000 which costs 100+million $ per/unit, you are talking about more than 4$ billion deal !! who is going to pay for that ??

- buying SU-35 in near future is not possible and considering Russian contract to deliver twenty-four Su-35 fighters worth more than $2 billion to China is also way too much expensive , isnt it ?? then why not invest in J-31 stealth fighter jet just like what we did with JF-17, when many ppl thought that JF-17 prog is bound to fail and will not fly and wont take off ever...


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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF is looking for more F-16's. Obama will be giving the permission to the Jordanian ones.
> 
> EFT is air superiority fighter but PAF is looking for multi-role aircraft. If EFT is to be bought then many trench 1 are available. The only air-superiority aircraft that would come to PAF, if things go well can be the TFX, the J31 is also being developed as multi-role aircraft.


sir i think we going to mix of trench 2,3 if we are going to trench1 it is not a bad option either we will have dedicated AD fighter, multi-role job goes to F-16 and JF-17 not bad at all sir, as for TFX is way off in the future, mass productions of TFX will be in 2028to 2030 as my estimation, our best bet to stick with J-31 which is available in 2022, 2025 time-frame


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## CHI RULES

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF is looking for more F-16's. Obama will be giving the permission to the Jordanian ones.
> 
> EFT is air superiority fighter but PAF is looking for multi-role aircraft. If EFT is to be bought then many trench 1 are available. The only air-superiority aircraft that would come to PAF, if things go well can be the TFX, the J31 is also being developed as multi-role aircraft.


UK EFT trench 1 have ground attack capability, meanwhile if purchased from Italy or any other country can be upgraded for ground roles.

The JF31 future is so far uncertain as predicted by many pros here meanwhile TFX is also facing delays.



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> J10C is a great bvr fighter armed with pl21


 Chinese have large number of legacy fighters to be replaced so first they shall fulfill their own demand which is in hundreds.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Basel said:


> Why Tench-1s are available for sale and who are selling them?



Royal Air Force is to replace them by 2017-18. Some have been scraped as well.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-butchers-four-typhoon-jets-6963359

Spanish Air Force had placed their F-18's for sale, unfortunately there are no buyers hence they have also offered the EFT for sale or even lease. 

Austria has Tranche 2 which are to be replaced..
http://www.countriesintheworld.com/saab-pitches-gripen-as-typhoon.html 

http://www.janes.com/article/42214/austria-further-reduces-qra-capabilities

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## Basel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Royal Air Force is to replace them by 2017-18. Some have been scraped as well.
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-butchers-four-typhoon-jets-6963359
> 
> Spanish Air Force had placed their F-18's for sale, unfortunately there are no buyers hence they have also offered the EFT for sale or even lease.
> 
> Austria has Tranche 2 which are to be replaced..
> http://www.countriesintheworld.com/saab-pitches-gripen-as-typhoon.html
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/42214/austria-further-reduces-qra-capabilities



Does EFT have some issue in it? It's to early to scrap even trench-1 or 2 no MLU for them? Look how long F-16s and even M-3s are used by their operators compared to them its way to early to release them from service. Leaving financial and economic issues aside.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakistanipower said:


> sir i think we going to mix of trench 2,3 if we are going to trench1 it is not a bad option either we will have dedicated AD fighter, multi-role job goes to F-16 and JF-17 not bad at all sir, as for TFX is way off in the future, mass productions of TFX will be in 2028to 2030 as my estimation, our best bet to stick with J-31 which is available in 2022, 2025 time-frame


Sir, probably it will be Trench 1 and 2 which will be upgraded over the years. This is provided PAF does get them. 

TFX is having some delays, fortunately one of the major issue regarding the engine has been solved. After the recent developments it is certain that more intent would be shown in TFX as Turkey is considering lowering the number of F-35's. How ever F-35 was to replace the F-4's and TFX was to replace the F-16's. 

This could indicate some delay now but faster production which would benefit in regards to export. The target date would still be the same for the time being. 

Now going to the J31, the delivery dates would be 2020-2021 because most of the research that is being done on J-20 is being incorporated on the J-31. There are some rumors that China might also procure the J-31 for the Western and Southern regions and keep the J-20 for Eastern regions. 

J-20 is said to be available by 2019-2020. 



CHI RULES said:


> UK EFT trench 1 have ground attack capability, meanwhile if purchased from Italy or any other country can be upgraded for ground roles.
> 
> The JF31 future is so far uncertain as predicted by many pros here meanwhile TFX is also facing delays.
> 
> 
> Chinese have large number of legacy fighters to be replaced so first they shall fulfill their own demand which is in hundreds.


Trench 1 still remains a Air Defence Fighter. 
Upgrade it to trench 2 then it is a decent ground attack aircraft.
Trench 3 is going to be a true Multi Role fighter.



Basel said:


> Does EFT have some issue in it? It's to early to scrap even trench-1 or 2 no MLU for them?


The MLU KIT is not available. Also there are issues with spares hence to keep RAF EFT serviceable 4 aircraft were scraped. Now after Brixit it looks even more difficult. It will be seen how the divorce goes...

IMO EU would still keep existing contracts & treaties,and the British Courts would continue to enforce the. However British Parliament would have her Supremacy once again and European Parliament would have a limited role of having various new agreements and treaties.


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## Basel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, probably it will be Trench 1 and 2 which will be upgraded over the years. This is provided PAF does get them.
> 
> TFX is having some delays, fortunately one of the major issue regarding the engine has been solved. After the recent developments it is certain that more intent would be shown in TFX as Turkey is considering lowering the number of F-35's. How ever F-35 was to replace the F-4's and TFX was to replace the F-16's.
> 
> This could indicate some delay now but faster production which would benefit in regards to export. The target date would still be the same for the time being.
> 
> Now going to the J31, the delivery dates would be 2020-2021 because most of the research that is being done on J-20 is being incorporated on the J-31. There are some rumors that China might also procure the J-31 for the Western and Southern regions and keep the J-20 for Eastern regions.
> 
> J-20 is said to be available by 2019-2020.
> 
> 
> Trench 1 still remains a Air Defence Fighter.
> Upgrade it to trench 2 then it is a decent ground attack aircraft.
> Trench 3 is going to be a true Multi Role fighter.
> 
> 
> The MLU KIT is not available. Also there are issues with spares hence to keep RAF EFT serviceable 4 aircraft were scraped. Now after Brixit it looks even more difficult. It will be seen how the divorce goes...
> 
> IMO EU would still keep existing contracts & treaties,and the British Courts would continue to enforce the. However British Parliament would have her Supremacy once again and European Parliament would have a limited role of having various new agreements and treaties.



You mean EFT trench-1 on user can't upgrade it to trench 2 or 3 level and same for trench 2?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Basel said:


> You mean EFT trench-1 on user can't upgrade it to trench 2 or 3 level and same for trench 2?


This is reported in the news link mentioned above and re-posted

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-butchers-four-typhoon-jets-6963359

1) "Four jets, costing £125million each, are being cannibalised to cover a desperate shortage of key kit."

2) “Four Typhoon aircraft held in the sustainment fleet are currently being used as donor aircraft and consequently are unable to fly.”

3) “The department relies on a small group of key industrial suppliers who have the technical and design capability to build, upgrade and support Typhoon,” the committee said in 2011.

4) “Problems with the availability of spare parts have meant that Typhoons are not flying as many hours as the department requires.

5)“The Typhoon supply chain is complex and stretches across Europe. However, the department admitted that it had not been managed well enough or delivered all the required parts when needed.”

6)"The Ministry of Defence (MoD) suggested four years ago that stripping Typhoons - built under a deal between the UK, Spain, Italy and Germany - for spares would end by 2015."


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## CHI RULES

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This is reported in the news link mentioned above and re-posted
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-butchers-four-typhoon-jets-6963359
> 
> 1) "Four jets, costing £125million each, are being cannibalised to cover a desperate shortage of key kit."
> 
> 2) “Four Typhoon aircraft held in the sustainment fleet are currently being used as donor aircraft and consequently are unable to fly.”
> 
> 3) “The department relies on a small group of key industrial suppliers who have the technical and design capability to build, upgrade and support Typhoon,” the committee said in 2011.
> 
> 4) “Problems with the availability of spare parts have meant that Typhoons are not flying as many hours as the department requires.
> 
> 5)“The Typhoon supply chain is complex and stretches across Europe. However, the department admitted that it had not been managed well enough or delivered all the required parts when needed.”
> 
> 6)"The Ministry of Defence (MoD) suggested four years ago that stripping Typhoons - built under a deal between the UK, Spain, Italy and Germany - for spares would end by 2015."



What is your choice for new jet if not Euro fighter, except Su35 and J10C.

By the way despite spares problems if Iranians can keep their 70s era fighters operational till now or PAF did in case of Mirages the honestly we have more chance with EFTs.


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## CriticalThought

Hi Guys. The following is the result of fantasies at 4:19 A.M. here in Australia. Since I am dreaming all of this up, I invite all fellow Pakistani guys to criticize everything I say.

So, it looks like Britain is facing much problems maintaining its aircraft after Brexit. In this backdrop, we find that British companies are keen on working with Turkey on TFX in general, but especially further R&D on EJ200. We also find that many countries are willing to scrap their EFTs.

This backdrop creates an interesting opportunity for Pakistan. We buy the EFTs being retired by various airforces at low cost, and cannibalize them for the EJ-200. We then use these in an upgraded airframe for JF-17 Block 3 (call it whatever name, I am not too fussed) while keeping the rest exactly the same as today. Such aircrafts will be excellent candidates for later upgrades with AESA radars, IRST, etc. etc. all the goodies. Meanwhile, since Turkey will be acquiring complete knowledge about the EJ-200, overhauling/maintenance should not be a problem for us.

Comments please. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) other seniors as well (sorry I am new so don't know many seniors by name).


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Hi Guys. The following is the result of fantasies at 4:19 A.M. here in Australia. Since I am dreaming all of this up, I invite all fellow Pakistani guys to criticize everything I say.
> 
> So, it looks like Britain is facing much problems maintaining its aircraft after Brexit. In this backdrop, we find that British companies are keen on working with Turkey on TFX in general, but especially further R&D on EJ200. We also find that many countries are willing to scrap their EFTs.
> 
> This backdrop creates an interesting opportunity for Pakistan. We buy the EFTs being retired by various airforces at low cost, and cannibalize them for the EJ-200. We then use these in an upgraded airframe for JF-17 Block 3 (call it whatever name, I am not too fussed) while keeping the rest exactly the same as today. Such aircrafts will be excellent candidates for later upgrades with AESA radars, IRST, etc. etc. all the goodies. Meanwhile, since Turkey will be acquiring complete knowledge about the EJ-200, overhauling/maintenance should not be a problem for us.
> 
> Comments please. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) other seniors as well (sorry I am new so don't know many seniors by name).


In light of political uncertainty, each of the Typhoon partners has an incentive to keep their respective manufacturing lines open and active. So if Pakistan is indeed interested in the Typhoon, I don't see a scenario where the PAF would even be allowed to buy used aircraft without spending on new planes, especially if one or two of the Typhoon partners extend loans or credit (which is what we'll probably need) to Pakistan to kick-start the purchase.

Kuwait agreed to purchase 28 new-built Typhoons for $9 billion U.S. - i.e. $321 million a unit. To be fair this package includes the aircraft as well as a "comprehensive" training and support package. Let's assume we cut out some of it (e.. strike element) and bring it down to $250m a unit.

Based on that, a PAF purchase of 40 aircraft (as per Haris Khan on PakDef AHQ wants 40 planes) would cost $10 billion. Let's assume that 50% of that is the support package (i.e. spare parts, maintenance coverage, training, etc). It may be possible to absorb 30-40% of that into the PAF's annual operational budget (e.g. spare parts purchases). 

For munitions and fighters, Pakistan is still on the direct hook for $6-7bn in terms of a direct purchase. A 10-year financing agreement would put us on the hook for $600-700m a year - i.e. a lot.

An alternative scenario would be to purchase 18 new-built Typhoons (at $250m a unit) and 22 surplus/used Typhoons (at $100m a unit including spare parts and support).

In that case, the total acquisition package (fighters + support) could be $7bn. Let's say the PAF can absorb 40% of that via its operational budget (i.e. for maintenance and logistics), the hook would be $4.2bn. A 10-year financing term would man spending $420m a year, which - while a lot - could be manageable.

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## Avicenna

Hi guys. Long time follower. I finally decided to join to post comments. Anyways just wanted to comment that it's becoming clear India is in a different league with respect to military procurement. Alliances are shifting in the world and muslim nations are being left behind because of inept leadership. With respect to Pakistan Air Force, she should forget about any meaningful alliance with the US. Since defense procurements have a strong element of diplomatic meaning, I don't expect American platforms to be available for Pakistan Air Force in a reliable manner. The US has chosen India. I hate to say it but in order to not fall too much behind, the PAF needs to think strategically as well as about its tactical needs. Of course, I am sure they are more aware of the situation than any of us. My suggestion would be to obtain the eurofighter. Whether used example of tranche 1 from Italy or Spain. Or a mixed new batch and used as bilal has stated. The reason being the tfx and Fc-31 are years away. Furthermore they are unknown quantities. Better to hedge bets and do a split buy of a proven western platform I.e. Eurofighter as well work on a 5th generation platform.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

CHI RULES said:


> What is your choice for new jet if not Euro fighter, except Su35 and J10C.
> 
> By the way despite spares problems if Iranians can keep their 70s era fighters operational till now or PAF did in case of Mirages the honestly we have more chance with EFTs.


Sir, 
This is what is being reported over the last few days in various news papers of NATO countries as well as some other European or neighboring countries.

1) Military exercises are going along NATO member states and Russia, reacting to these with number of intercepts reported. 
2) Many NATO members are receiving their F-35's as replacement for the F-16's. 
3) Many other countries are looking for a suitable replacement aircraft for their F-18's. 
4) Some countries that are not financially strong are considering to replace their F-18's as well as EFT's for some affordable aircraft. 
5) F-16's are also being looked as replacement by some countries keeping alive hopes for USA to continue production or through some European county. 
6) Germany to increase defence spending to 2% as per NATO Treaty requirement. 
7) European Parliament is also considering forming a joint European Armed Forces. 
8) Brixit causing doubts regarding most of the combined projects in various fields.

Now considering these and that no European country has so far considered making a Fifth Gen aircraft does put many in this debate to what would happen if war brakes out between Europe and Russia over Syria. Recently Russia warned the US that it would shoot down all aircraft if they do not stop targeting Syrian Armed forces loyal to Assad.. This was followed by British PM's statement to soot down Russian aircraft that are considered threatening. 


With all this interesting times lie ahead. The chances of the European countries that are unable to stable their economy would try to sell what they produce,i.e Spain and Italy can sell their existing JFT and also offer new aircraft with additional requirement to produce and assemble it at one place.Or on the other hand procure the Gripen with EJ-200 engine to build additional numbers funded by the EU member states.

This would provide enough financial support to SAAB to fast track any 5th gen program with help from USA. Or enter into a partnership with Turkey on the TFX. The only problem is that this might require EU to allow Turkish citizens free travel (something that would make their case stronger for EU) which they can not afford at this time when Anti-Muslim sentiment is on the rise. 

Now to answer your question regarding my choice would be to somehow procure the Euro get engines and ECM/EW & Salex Radar for JF-17 Blk 3. By the time IAF gets the delivery of Rafales PAF would have a suitable low cost platform. PAF should also consider increasing the cap of 50 aircraft per block to 100 - 150 aircraft from block 3 on-wards. 

The procurement of JF-17 block 3 in higher numbers would also allow PAF to procure J-31's or J-20(if allowed). 

How Iran or Pakistan continue to maintain their old aircraft? 
Both countries procured aircraft that were made in large numbers. If we consider mirage 3 and 5 then they were built in thousands. Same is the case of F-16's, they are still being manufactured. 

Iran's procurement of F-14's was a mistake by the Shah as per many annalists. If the shah would have been visor and procured the F-15 then till date there would have been no issues. F-4 and F-5 were built in thousands so Iran has no problem in procuring their spares. The Iranian defence industry also started to manufacture the parts locally some with permission and some without..


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## Asifkamal

I want to say something different tonight. It was PAF plane to get 111 F16 by the end of 1996. It was keeping the air force up to date. This is end of 2016 and we have 78 F16. Means we are 20 years late. What we should,'ve or rather must have done was to procure 32 Mirage 2000 in 1990,s . We could,t and what was essential in 2006 F16 order was to get at least 55 new F16 . We missed that chance due to Musharraf. We also failed to order Rafale or Griooen( which was air force first choice). Now we are far behind in technology and numbers. As I,be mentioned, at least 20 years. Still it seems we are not serious. What was dire need , to get letters radar and avionics and BVR for jf17 from day first... We produced 50 aircrafts with no targeting pods, no BVR and then turned to China and still looking for targeting pod.. We decided to purchase j10 from China as Musharraf wanted it and then air force rejected it. No alternative?? In 1998 India started indicting SU30 and now more than 230 . We should have responded from then. Now since one year sometime we hear about SU35, sometime used mirage 2000 , now eurofighter??? Seems we are confused now


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## Asifkamal

Still I insist on j10


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## Lavrentiy

The PAF only needs to concentrate on the JF-17 including its entire supply chain. You can't think of high end products when your home is littered with Mirage 3, 5 and F-7 junk. Replace this junk with JF-17 before thinking of anything else.

A top-end 4.5th generation fighter and a 5th generation fighter is a pipe dream for at least a decade. We can only seriously start thinking about a high tech platform by 2025.

Parity with India doesn't really matter in the presence of Mutually Assured Destruction. At most, there could be border skirmishes for which we don't need top-end fighters.


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## mingle

PAF needs third type &a I hope it won't be China we need a new vendor Russian or European otherwise PAF going to be Mini PLAF

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## Avicenna

I advocate for small amounts of the eurofighter for a few reasons.

1)it is a European platform I.e. Not Chinese or American which is diversification of sources.

2)ability to acquire meteor bvr missile.

3)acquire ej200 which hopefully will be the power plant for the TFX.

4) finally Pakistani eurofighters will allow commonality with Saudi Air Force. Saudis have 72 under contract with perhaps a further 48. I hope the Pakistanis can convince Saudi about the value of financial help for PAF to obtain eurofighter by selling the prospect of Pakistani pilots for their Air Force. 

The 4th point maybe overly optimistic regarding Arab help for PAF however muslim leadership needs to be aware of current realities in the world I.e. US Israel India alliance or at the very least oppression of Muslim nations by political and military means. Bilal Khan Quwa thoughts?

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## Humble Analyst

Lavrentiy said:


> The PAF only needs to concentrate on the JF-17 including its entire supply chain. You can't think of high end products when your home is littered with Mirage 3, 5 and F-7 junk. Replace this junk with JF-17 before thinking of anything else.
> 
> A top-end 4.5th generation fighter and a 5th generation fighter is a pipe dream for at least a decade. We can only seriously start thinking about a high tech platform by 2025.
> 
> Parity with India doesn't really matter in the presence of Mutually Assured Destruction. At most, there could be border skirmishes for which we don't need top-end fighters.


Do not agree, as disparity in conventional balance is recipe and invitation for limited war escalating into something bigger.



Asifkamal said:


> I want to say something different tonight. It was PAF plane to get 111 F16 by the end of 1996. It was keeping the air force up to date. This is end of 2016 and we have 78 F16. Means we are 20 years late. What we should,'ve or rather must have done was to procure 32 Mirage 2000 in 1990,s . We could,t and what was essential in 2006 F16 order was to get at least 55 new F16 . We missed that chance due to Musharraf. We also failed to order Rafale or Gripen( which was air force first choice). Now we are far behind in technology and numbers. As I, mentioned, at least 20 years. Still it seems we are not serious. What was dire need , to get letters radar and avionics and BVR for jf17 from day first... We produced 50 aircrafts with no targeting pods, no BVR and then turned to China and still looking for targeting pod.. We decided to purchase j10 from China as Musharraf wanted it and then air force rejected it. No alternative?? In 1998 India started indicting SU30 and now more than 230 . We should have responded from then. Now since one year sometime we hear about SU35, sometime used mirage 2000 , now eurofighter??? Seems we are confused now


Very good simple analysis, now INDIA USA partnering to manufacture F16 Block 70/72 in India what will we do?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Regarding the Typhoon. If the PAF is of the view that there is a possibility to procure the platform (especially second-hand Italian and Spanish units), it will try to make a move. However, we need to come to terms with the fact that while we could 'ask' for it (just as we had asked for Russian fighters recently), we can only move forward once there is a positive response. Although the PAF itself would want a level of discreteness with such a transaction, the industry wire (especially in Western Europe) will let us know of any activity heading in our direction.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Regarding the Typhoon. If the PAF is of the view that there is a possibility to procure the platform (especially second-hand Italian and Spanish units), it will try to make a move. However, we need to come to terms with the fact that while we could 'ask' for it (just as we had asked for Russian fighters recently), we can only move forward once there is a positive response. Although the PAF itself would want a level of discreteness with such a transaction, the industry wire (especially in Western Europe) will let us know of any activity heading in our direction.


i would rather want PAF to make sure it gets a good deal on block 3 really makes it an aircraft comparable to gripen

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## Hephaestus

YousufSSG said:


> *The PAF has around 920 -950 aircafts in its fleet ...........
> 
> PAFs current and new acquisitions*
> *Jets *
> 60 - JF-17s ( 90 on order )
> 80 - F-16s (8 new F-16s on order)
> 75 - Mirage 3 /////////////////////
> 82 - Mirage 5 /////////////////////
> 185 - F-7s / F-7p / F-7pg
> 
> 
> *Planes the PAF is interested in
> Su-35s
> j-10s
> yak-130*
> 
> *Trainer aircraft *
> 
> 150 - Super Mushak (basic trainer)
> 60 - K-8 (intermediate trainer ) - ( 20 on order )
> 65 - T-37 (intermediate Trainer) - (34 gifted by Turkey this year)
> 
> *Transport aircraft*
> USSR Antonov An-26 - 1
> 
> USA Lockheed C-130 Hercules - 18
> 
> Harbin y-12 - 2
> 
> Saab 2000 - 1
> 
> USSR Ilyushin Il-78 - 4
> Il-78MK
> 
> Pakistan has 10 more transport aircrafts which i have not mentioned
> 
> 
> *Helicopters *
> Mi-17 - 80
> Aloutte - 95
> Cobra gunships - 50
> Z-10 gunships - 3 ( more on order )
> Vipers ( 15 on order )
> Mi-35 ( 12 on order )
> 
> Pakistan has around 50 more helis which i have not mentioned ....
> 
> * Special Mission Aircraft *
> Dassult falcon - 3
> Saab 2000 Ereiye - 4 (AWACS )
> Shaanxi ZDK-03 - 4 (AWACs)
> 
> Plus Pakistan has around 70 drones armed and Unarmed ,I have only included the main aircrafts of the PAF ...



I personally think J10's are the go to fighters now for PAF. I wouldn't be surprised if PAF get their hands on EF though. If India selects both F16 for immediate augmentation and Gripens for technical help on Tejas.

J10's are pretty potent planes.


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## airmarshal

Most likely, Pakistan will for a Chinese aircraft. All of this talk of Typhoon is just fantasy. 

Pakistan is strategically moving towards Chinese sphere of influence. Russia too seemingly converging into this as China is a big economic partner of Russia. So it does not seem Pakistan will make any move towards buying a European platform.


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## Hephaestus

YousufSSG said:


> yak-130


Why Yakovlev?


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## Indo-Pak

Avicenna said:


> Hi guys. Long time follower. I finally decided to join to post comments. Anyways just wanted to comment that it's becoming clear India is in a different league with respect to military procurement. Alliances are shifting in the world and muslim nations are being left behind because of inept leadership. With respect to Pakistan Air Force, she should *forget about any meaningful alliance with the US.* Since defense procurements have a strong element of diplomatic meaning, I don't expect American platforms to be available for Pakistan Air Force in a reliable manner. The US has chosen India. I hate to say it but in order to not fall too much behind, the PAF needs to think strategically as well as about its tactical needs. Of course, I am sure they are more aware of the situation than any of us. My suggestion would be to obtain the eurofighter. Whether used example of tranche 1 from Italy or Spain. Or a mixed new batch and used as bilal has stated. The reason being the tfx and Fc-31 are years away. Furthermore they are unknown quantities. Better to hedge bets and do a split buy of a proven western platform I.e. Eurofighter as well work on a 5th generation platform.




you have flag of USA in ur profile..


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## Mrc

J 20 is a possibility as well given the recent indian spending spree

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## Avicenna

Indo-Pak said:


> you have flag of USA in ur profile..


That's right. I'm an American of south Asian background.


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## Tank131

Frankly j10 adds little capability to PAF, especially in numbers around 40. PAF should put full efforts to improve the jf17 to bring it structurally in league with 90% of F-16s physical performance (meaning slightly enlarged airframe, much more potent engine, and better weapons loading and larger fuel storage, including cft for more range). Improve electronically via chinese or Italian radars and ew suits. Bring it electronically in league with gripen ng and you will have an answer to rafale and f-16 blk 70 or whatever else the IAF will field (may not be equal but will be close enough amd cheaper that PAF can feel comfortable with it in large numbers to be able to hold its own against the best of the IAF). 

For strike the only remaining affordable option is JH7B which has the weapons capacity of MKI and if you equip it with J-11D's electronics you will have a bomb/missile truck which can do both ground strike amd antiship functionality, especially when escorted by those upgraded jf17.

Add to this 6-8 H-6K strategic bombers equipped with Air Launched versions of Babur and you could sit from deep inside Pakistan and launch saturation LACM strikes deep into India and well outside the reach of S400.

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## Humble Analyst

mingle said:


> PAF needs third type &a I hope it won't be China we need a new vendor Russian or European otherwise PAF going to be Mini PLAF


Russia is not selling anything serious to Pakistan due to lack of funds and same applies to Europe


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## Zain Malik

Hopefully PAF now will look for a Chinese option may be j-11D or something to counter continuos threats posed by Indians for looking again for a single engine.


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## Falcon26

Humble Analyst said:


> Russia is not selling anything serious to Pakistan due to lack of funds and same applies to Europe



The problem for Pakistan is that windows of opportunities to acquire the Eurofighter are fast closing & by the time Pakistan is financially ready (if ever) the opportunity might never be there.

You saw this with the F-16 Block 52 acquisitions in which the Pakistanis limited the numbers & diverted the funds towards the Kashmiri Earthquake rehabilitation; with the hope they could order more down the road. You saw this with the Mirage-2000 acquisition plans in the early 1990s. You saw it again with talks of acquiring the Rafale. In all these cases, the Pakistani prayed for an ideal day that never materialized.

Currently, Pakistan's hope of acquiring the Eurofighters hinges on the Italians partly due to the later's bad diplomatic relationship with India & also partly due to Pakistan'a long running relationship with Italian defense firms. There could potentially be a day when india'a relationship with Italy improves or if the Indian navy which is looking to broaden surface fleet commits to Italian naval designs. Both prospects will kill any hope of Pakistan acquiring the Eurofighters.

Pakistan will be left with J-31 & other inferior, really junk, designs the Chinese themselves don't want. Consequently, when you let your adversary to considerably widen both the qualitative & quantitive conventional gap, you encourage your adversary to entertain ideas of short & decisive military engagement that are limited in terms of space & time but punishing in terms of intensity.

If you look at the Indian acquisitions for the past decade & so, you will see that it's military is being prepared for exactly this type of confrontation. The ongoing diplomatic narratives & public posture is simply the prelude to such confrontation.

This is precisely why the typical Pakistani talks of "everything is fine" and "1:3" ratios being manageable is laughable. It assumes a Pakistani qualitative edge that's none existent.

My 2 cents.

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## Avicenna

Falcon26 said:


> The problem for Pakistan is that windows of opportunities to acquire the Eurofighter are fast closing & by the time Pakistan is financially ready (if ever) the opportunity might never be there.
> 
> You saw this with the F-16 Block 52 acquisitions in which the Pakistanis limited the numbers & diverted the funds towards the Kashmiri Earthquake rehabilitation; with the hope they could order more down the road. You saw this with the Mirage-2000 acquisition plans in the early 1990s. You saw it again with talks of acquiring the Rafale. In all these cases, the Pakistani prayed for an ideal day that never materialized.
> 
> Currently, Pakistan's hope of acquiring the Eurofighters hinges on the Italians partly due to the later's bad diplomatic relationship with India & also partly due to Pakistan'a long running relationship with Italian defense firms. There could potentially be a day when india'a relationship with Italy improves or if the Indian navy which is looking to broaden surface fleet commits to Italian naval designs. Both prospects will kill any hope of Pakistan acquiring the Eurofighters.
> 
> Pakistan will be left with J-31 & other inferior, really junk, designs the Chinese themselves don't want. Consequently, when you let your adversary to considerably widen both the qualitative & quantitive conventional gap, you encourage your adversary to entertain ideas of short & decisive military engagement that are limited in terms of space & time but punishing in terms of intensity.
> 
> If you look at the Indian acquisitions for the past decade & so, you will see that it's military is being prepared for exactly this type of confrontation. The ongoing diplomatic narratives & public posture is simply the prelude to such confrontation.
> 
> This is precisely why the typical Pakistani talks of "everything is fine" and "1:3" ratios being manageable is laughable. It assumes a Pakistani qualitative edge that's none existent.
> 
> My 2 cents.





Falcon26 said:


> The problem for Pakistan is that windows of opportunities to acquire the Eurofighter are fast closing & by the time Pakistan is financially ready (if ever) the opportunity might never be there.
> 
> You saw this with the F-16 Block 52 acquisitions in which the Pakistanis limited the numbers & diverted the funds towards the Kashmiri Earthquake rehabilitation; with the hope they could order more down the road. You saw this with the Mirage-2000 acquisition plans in the early 1990s. You saw it again with talks of acquiring the Rafale. In all these cases, the Pakistani prayed for an ideal day that never materialized.
> 
> Currently, Pakistan's hope of acquiring the Eurofighters hinges on the Italians partly due to the later's bad diplomatic relationship with India & also partly due to Pakistan'a long running relationship with Italian defense firms. There could potentially be a day when india'a relationship with Italy improves or if the Indian navy which is looking to broaden surface fleet commits to Italian naval designs. Both prospects will kill any hope of Pakistan acquiring the Eurofighters.
> 
> Pakistan will be left with J-31 & other inferior, really junk, designs the Chinese themselves don't want. Consequently, when you let your adversary to considerably widen both the qualitative & quantitive conventional gap, you encourage your adversary to entertain ideas of short & decisive military engagement that are limited in terms of space & time but punishing in terms of intensity.





Falcon26 said:


> The problem for Pakistan is that windows of opportunities to acquire the Eurofighter are fast closing & by the time Pakistan is financially ready (if ever) the opportunity might never be there.
> 
> You saw this with the F-16 Block 52 acquisitions in which the Pakistanis limited the numbers & diverted the funds towards the Kashmiri Earthquake rehabilitation; with the hope they could order more down the road. You saw this with the Mirage-2000 acquisition plans in the early 1990s. You saw it again with talks of acquiring the Rafale. In all these cases, the Pakistani prayed for an ideal day that never materialized.
> 
> Currently, Pakistan's hope of acquiring the Eurofighters hinges on the Italians partly due to the later's bad diplomatic relationship with India & also partly due to Pakistan'a long running relationship with Italian defense firms. There could potentially be a day when india'a relationship with Italy improves or if the Indian navy which is looking to broaden surface fleet commits to Italian naval designs. Both prospects will kill any hope of Pakistan acquiring the Eurofighters.
> 
> Pakistan will be left with J-31 & other inferior, really junk, designs the Chinese themselves don't want. Consequently, when you let your adversary to considerably widen both the qualitative & quantitive conventional gap, you encourage your adversary to entertain ideas of short & decisive military engagement that are limited in terms of space & time but punishing in terms of intensity.
> 
> If you look at the Indian acquisitions for the past decade & so, you will see that it's military is being prepared for exactly this type of confrontation. The ongoing diplomatic narratives & public posture is simply the prelude to such confrontation.
> 
> This is precisely why the typical Pakistani talks of "everything is fine" and "1:3" ratios being manageable is laughable. It assumes a Pakistani qualitative edge that's none existent.
> 
> My 2 cents.



I agree completely with the above. It is a complex political situation which has led to this. In the past Pakistan could reasonably rely upon US military equipment although subject to intermittent sanctions. However now the bigger game is the containment of China by the US. This means stronger US India relations. This is also encouraged by a strengthening pro Indian lobby in the US. Long story short Pakistan can forget about American weapons. The problem is Chinese systems, although far improved from years past still lag compared to Western systems. As far as the PAF is concerned it's qualitative edge based on American platforms is no more. I encourage picking up spare F-16s when possible as it is a cost effective action to take. However, a new Western platform needs to be obtained to maintain some sort of parity with India. Chinese systems are unproven and essentially quantitative fillers. The leading edge will for the time being should be Western platforms. Obviously we don't know the financial constraints the PAF is under. I hope acquiring the Typhoon is a realistic option. The points I had made before make it a prudent tactical and strategic decision. Especially in the light of Pakistan potentially joining Turkey with TFX. A split buy of Used Tranche one and participation in TFX should be a realistic pathway for the future in addition to block three thunder development.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/spain-offers-eurofighters-to-peru-381843/

An article from a few years ago. It shows possible price of such an acquisition.

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## Basel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Regarding the Typhoon. If the PAF is of the view that there is a possibility to procure the platform (especially second-hand Italian and Spanish units), it will try to make a move. However, we need to come to terms with the fact that while we could 'ask' for it (just as we had asked for Russian fighters recently), we can only move forward once there is a positive response. Although the PAF itself would want a level of discreteness with such a transaction, the industry wire (especially in Western Europe) will let us know of any activity heading in our direction.



Hoping for mix of new / old EFTs can open new tech availability for JFT specially EJ200 & avionics' which will make PAF more potent.

Pakistan should try to get a package deal from EU countries including weapons for all 3 services even if buying mix of new and used ones, for example package can include like this Aster15/30, ships/subs (new/used), EFTs (new/used), helicopters, sub systems and components etc. This can be financed by long term loans.


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## WarFariX

Mrc said:


> J 20 is a possibility as well given the recent indian spending spree


[emoji58]


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## Ultima Thule

Mrc said:


> J 20 is a possibility as well given the recent indian spending spree


J-20 is ban for export


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## Mrc

pakistanipower said:


> J-20 is ban for export



I m sure chinese will consider if requested...


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## Ultima Thule

Mrc said:


> I m sure chinese will consider if requested...


may be


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## ali_raza

eft would be a good choice.


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## princefaisal

When J-31 is available, go for it & forget J20. Pakistan should bring Turkish brothers in J-31 program for JV.


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## Ultima Thule

princefaisal said:


> When J-31 is available, go for it & forget J20. Pakistan should bring Turkish brothers in J-31 program for JV.


bro i think 2022-2025 time-frame, J-20 is not for export banned by China, that not possible they are running similar project named TFX which will be mass produce 2028-2030 time-frame


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## Lavrentiy

The fanboys used to claim that we are going to have 150 JF-17s by 2016. Actually, we have only half of that figure. Therefore, we have a long way to go regarding JF-17 so it implies that no new fighter is coming in the next 8-10 years.

Once the Mirage 3, 5 and F-7 junk is replaced, the PAF can then look at other options.

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## CHI RULES

Lavrentiy said:


> The PAF only needs to concentrate on the JF-17 including its entire supply chain. You can't think of high end products when your home is littered with Mirage 3, 5 and F-7 junk. Replace this junk with JF-17 before thinking of anything else.
> 
> A top-end 4.5th generation fighter and a 5th generation fighter is a pipe dream for at least a decade. We can only seriously start thinking about a high tech platform by 2025.
> 
> Parity with India doesn't really matter in the presence of Mutually Assured Destruction. At most, there could be border skirmishes for which we don't need top-end fighters.



We need AF to deter any limited scale strikes as nukes can't be used without any full scale war. We should not be India centric only we have now vulnerable borders on three sides i.e Iran, Afghanistan and off course India only exception is China.


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## Lavrentiy

CHI RULES said:


> We need AF to deter any limited scale strikes as nukes can't be used without any full scale war. We should not be India centric only we have now vulnerable borders on three sides i.e Iran, Afghanistan and off course India only exception is China.


May be but not before the junk is replaced. Our limited resources will eventually prioritise replacement over any top-end fighter induction.


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## princefaisal

Lavrentiy said:


> The fanboys used to claim that we are going to have 150 JF-17s by 2016. Actually, we have only half of that figure. Therefore, we have a long way to go regarding JF-17 so it implies that no new fighter is coming in the next 8-10 years.
> 
> Once the Mirage 3, 5 and F-7 junk is replaced, the PAF can then look at other options.


Pakistan should increase the JF17 block 2 production to a figure of 40 aircrafts per annum.


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## Hassan Guy

Im guessing we're blaming Zarvan now for the Su-35 deal not happening

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## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> Im guessing we're blaming Zarvan now for the Su-35 deal not happening


He is just assuming nothing else


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## WarFariX

princefaisal said:


> Pakistan should increase the JF17 block 2 production to a figure of 40 aircrafts per annum.


Bhai soch samajh kar bolo  . Guys in PAC spend overtimes. They are working extremely hard . Producing even 16 units per year is direct result of their day night hardwork. They are simply dedicated to their work and only aim of providing PAF good jets. 25 rate can be achieved i guess but that too with lots of problems.

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## YeBeWarned

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> 25 rate can be achieved i guess but that too with lots of problems.



to reach that number , they need another assembly plant for JF .. in existing space at KAMRA i doubt 25 can be rolled out in a year ..

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## WarFariX

Starlord said:


> to reach that number , they need another assembly plant for JF .. in existing space at KAMRA i doubt 25 can be rolled out in a year ..


No i dunno myself about 25 but i am quoting older quwa articles plus off course 25 rate cant be achieved now. I guess once major orders are expected ,another assembly lines could be considered to fulfill orders. Just imagine if KSA chooses to replace its aging fleet of 110 F-5/F-4 with Block 3 and dual seaters , that would be just soo awesome

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## YeBeWarned

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> No i dunno myself about 25 but i am quoting older quwa articles



That was the plan, because of the export order to be delivered in time .. and keep up the pace with out numbers , PAF needs to replace those Mirage and F-7's post 2020 ..

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## khanasifm

Producing jets requires $$$ which is not unlimited amount 1 sqn of 16-18 jets Jf assuming PAC cost of 20 million equals 360 million a year and it's not paf there is pa and pn plus other expense, keep in mind previous orders were all borrowed money , as I always say start paying taxes and improve. Collection from current single digit to double digit then pak can afford paying for big ticket item themselves

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## Super Falcon

I think pakistan should consider buying twin engine air superiority jet anything less is useless

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## princefaisal

TFX availability = Year 2027 (Probability)
J-31 availability = Year 2021 (Probability)
J-10C availability = Year 2018 (Probability)
J-10D availability = Year 2019-20 (Probability)
Su-35 availability = Year 2019-20 (Probability)
EFT T1 availability = Year 2017 (Probability)

So to counter the Rafale, EFT T1 seems to be the best as its training period & maintenance support period for PAF will further consume at least one to 2 years

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## Maxpane

princefaisal said:


> TFX availability = Year 2027 (Probability)
> J-31 availability = Year 2021 (Probability)
> J-10C availability = Year 2018 (Probability)
> J-10D availability = Year 2019-20 (Probability)
> Su-35 availability = Year 2019-20 (Probability)
> EFT T1 availability = Year 2017 (Probability)
> 
> So to counter the Rafale, EFT T1 seems to be the best as its training period & maintenance support period for PAF will further consume at least one to 2 years


is trench 1 eft good enough?

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## princefaisal

Maxpane said:


> is trench 1 eft good enough?


Yes Trenche 1 block 5 is enough. Tranche 3 is not affordable. Block 5 Eurofighter Typhoon is cleared to carry AMRAAM, ASRAAM, IRIS-T and AIM-9L air-to-air missiles, as well as Paveway II laser-guided bombs and GBU-16s


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## WarFariX

princefaisal said:


> TFX availability = Year 2027 (Probability)
> J-31 availability = Year 2021 (Probability)
> J-10C availability = Year 2018 (Probability)
> J-10D availability = Year 2019-20 (Probability)
> Su-35 availability = Year 2019-20 (Probability)
> EFT T1 availability = Year 2017 (Probability)
> 
> So to counter the Rafale, EFT T1 seems to be the best as its training period & maintenance support period for PAF will further consume at least one to 2 years


T1 is shit. Why all of you guys think narrowly always? Counter india by a jet of rafales league? That wont benefit us much even if it outclasses rafales. We cant manage to get more than 2-3 Sqns of EFT. India can manage to get more rafales. So again you will be at pilot mercy coz numbers will be superior again. Now best thing is to go for 5th gen. No matter how much of a rafale force india creates , 5th gen will give them hell of a time.


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## Muhammad Omar

Bhai Sahab Jo Marzi Krlo Lene PAF ne used F-SOLA hi hain

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## princefaisal

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> T1 is shit. Why all of you guys think narrowly always? Counter india by a jet of rafales league? That wont benefit us much even if it outclasses rafales. We cant manage to get more than 2-3 Sqns of EFT. India can manage to get more rafales. So again you will be at pilot mercy coz numbers will be superior again. Now best thing is to go for 5th gen. No matter how much of a rafale force india creates , 5th gen will give them hell of a time.


*India will get first batch of Rafale fighter jets in 2019. And we will wait for 5th gen till at least 2021 to counter it.*


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## WarFariX

princefaisal said:


> *India will get first batch of Rafale fighter jets in 2019. And we will wait for 5th gen till at least 2021 to counter it.*


First aircraft by 2019 not first batch


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## Super Falcon

Muhammad Omar said:


> Bhai Sahab Jo Marzi Krlo Lene PAF ne used F-SOLA hi hain


Ha yaar ISI ka tu Rona ha chutiya airforce like Egypt buying twin engine but PAF thinkers hold with F 16 technology is old 

Time for SU 35

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## Cool_Soldier

Well, According to my perception,
PAF will go for J 31 that would be available by 2020-20121.
Immediate try could be buying few block 52 / 60 from USA
While block 3 JF 17 will also be an answer to 4.5 generation fighters.

All above three option can handle Rafale.


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## Fledgingwings

Pakistan should go for Mirage2000.its a good aircraft and fits most needs of PAF.


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## salman-1

Instead of going to mirage 2000s PAF should seriously consider J-10c and make it more advance. Even if it comes at power to block 50/52 how can one say it doesn't give any thing extra. What else PAF is looking for. Replace old Mirages and all F-7p type with it and it will give a super punch to IAF in every way. Put against M2k and mig-29 and see how Indians will have their shits in their pants in any conflict. What would a Mirage and F-7 will do against them is only increasing their score up.

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## Pak.one

PAF must go for a new aircraft but it must be a joint production like JFT.if we looks towards china it has several new jets,which we can ask them for j11 or j 16.these jets can fulfill our short and medium term requirement with one of these.now people will said these are Russian copies they will not allow.if we have a will then there is must a way to fulfill the requirement. And if we start a production like JFT and step by step localise manufacturing of all parts or most of them this reduce our imports bill and in long run we will give knowledge to our engineers and technical staff about twin engine jets and we can later move this experienced staff on FGF.for initial funding we can join hands with some arab country which are so eager for modern weapons in these days.so we can later provide them high end long range jets which they are seeking from EU and US now.thanks


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## Muhammad Omar

Super Falcon said:


> Ha yaar ISI ka tu Rona ha chutiya airforce like Egypt buying twin engine but PAF thinkers hold with F 16 technology is old
> 
> Time for SU 35



Twin Engine na bhi lein Atleast J-10C hi le lein China se IRST AESA Longer Range More Payload 
Acha option hai Mirage ko replace krne ka 

Bad Me J-31 or TAI TFX ko le lein F-16's ko replace krne k liye... with Long Range Sams


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## WarFariX

Fledgingwings said:


> Pakistan should go for Mirage2000.its a good aircraft and fits most needs of PAF.


could you outline the needs of PAF please


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## Readerdefence

Super Falcon said:


> Ha yaar ISI ka tu Rona ha chutiya airforce like Egypt buying twin engine but PAF thinkers hold with F 16 technology is old
> 
> Time for SU 35


Bro that ... airforce has been funded by SA 
But for us SA ask for manpower of elite soldiers and we are not ready to lend any 
So if any oil rich country can sponsor Pakistan leave su35 PAF can get f15 SE


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