# Jordan buys 60 German SPAAG surplus



## BLACKEAGLE

*Dutch Cheetah air defence guns sold to Jordan
*
The Netherlands and Jordan have struck a &#8364;21 million deal that will see 60 surplus Cheetah air defence systems being transferred to the Jordanian armed forces.

The agreement also includes the delivery of Cheetah spare parts, some 350,000 rounds of surplus ammunition and technical documentation. In addition, five Leopard 1 armoured recovery vehicles will be handed over to Jordan together with the hulls of 12 non-refurbished PRTL air defence systems and two Leopard 1 main battle tanks (MBT), which will be used for spare parts.

Eleven Thales Nederland Flycatcher Mk1 mobile radar fire control systems and 22 40mm Bofors L/70 guns are also included in the deal.

The Dutch Ministry of Defence will provide assistance with training and deliveries will commence in 2014.

The Cheetah is the Dutch variant of the German Gepard twin 35mm self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG) and is based on a slightly-modified Leopard 1 tank chassis.

Produced by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), the mobile air defence system is equipped with independent search and tracking radars, a search radar (S-band for the German vehicle and X-band for the Netherlands vehicle) installed at the rear of the turret, and a tracking radar (Ku band for the German vehicle and X/Ka band for the Netherlands) on the front of the turret.

The Dutch MoD acquired five pre-production and 95 production PRTLs, the last of which was delivered in 1979. In 1995 it was decided to refurbish 60 PRTLs, the first of which was redelivered in 1998. The upgrade programme was a bilateral effort with the German army concurrently refurbishing 147 of their Gepards.

The upgraded air defence gun was known as Cheetah in Dutch military service and its service life was planned to continue until 2015. However, due to a realignment of Dutch ground based air defence forces, the Cheetahs were withdrawn from service in 2007 and stored under the auspices of the Dutch Defence Material Organisation.

Germany phased out its last Gepards in 2010. Romania received 43 former German army Gepards in 2004 and Chile bought 30 in 2008. The latter deal was later cancelled due to high overhaul costs. In late 2012, another 36 upgraded Gepards were sold to Brazil.

http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/dutch-cheetah-air-defence-guns-sold-jordan/

http://nos.nl/artikel/473315-jordanie-koopt-overtollige-tanks.html

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## Yzd Khalifa

Congrats bro! Jordan shall protect itself from the coming threat in near future ,if there's any.

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## BLACKEAGLE

22 Bofors L/70 guns are included in the contract:

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## abbas.hasan

I am amazed Jordan faces threats from which countries? :O


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## Zabaniyah

abbas.hasan said:


> I am amazed Jordan faces threats from which countries? :O



Israel and Iran


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## Saleem

what a waste...it could have been spent on betterment of the people....


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## BordoEnes

Sweet, Perhaps Jordan could opt for Turkish SPAAG to in the future

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## BLACKEAGLE

BordoEnes said:


> Sweet, Perhaps Jordan could opt for Turkish SPAAG to in the future



But all of those are for only 21 million Euro , while yours would be much more pricey. I think we have enough numbers of SPAAGS and short range missiles systems, we should start working on getting medium and long range ones..

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## Doritos11

what happened to Jordan-Russia pantsir S1


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## BLACKEAGLE

Doritos11 said:


> what happened to Jordan-Russia pantsir S1



No official conformation yet although there are news that we got them, but I only tend to believe in the confirmed ones because I don't want to get disappointed if proved otherwise , there were news as well that we got 4 additional Patriot-Pac 2 from Germany, I will ignore it until it's confirmed.


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## Sinnerman108

@BLACKEAGLE

That looks very much like Tunguska ?

Are you sure about the pictures ?


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## BLACKEAGLE

salman108 said:


> @BLACKEAGLE
> 
> That looks very much like Tunguska ?
> 
> Are you sure about the pictures ?


They are two different systems bro:

9K22 Tunguska - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Flakpanzer Gepard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## cabatli_53

Tunguska or Gepard can't compete with new generation SPAAG systems regarding precision/kill rate. 

German C-RAM tested on Istanbul







Turkish Korkut

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## BLACKEAGLE

@cabatli_53 

It's better no doubt, but it must be pricey which we can't afford. I think getting 60 Flakpanzer Gepard systems and 22 40mm Bofors L/70 guns for 21 million Euros is a great deal. I think buying 60 Pantsir-S1 would cost 600-700$ million, although some sources say we got undisclosed numbers of it.

How much does that system cost BTW?

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## FaujHistorian

abbas.hasan said:


> I am amazed Jordan faces threats from which countries? :O



Jordanian King has a very peaceful stance. Good relations with pretty much everyone who wants to be peaceful. 

That means no $stupid war with Israel. 


However Jordan like Pakistan lives in dangerous neighborhood. Even though it is one of the smaller country (industry or manpower) but it should keep its army equipment uptodate. 


Weapons listed in this thread seems like a very good deal. 


peace

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## madmusti

BLACKEAGLE said:


> @cabatli_53
> 
> It's better no doubt, but it must be pricey which we can't afford. I think getting 60 Flakpanzer Gepard systems and 22 40mm Bofors L/70 guns for 21 million Euros is a great deal. I think buying 60 Pantsir-S1 would cost 600-700$ million, although some sources say we got undisclosed numbers of it.
> 
> How much does that system cost BTW?



*We don´t know it but 7 ACV-300 Hundred cost like 1 German Puma.

So it will Cost-Effective 


Our Version can Swim *


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## Juice

madmusti said:


> *We don´t know it but 7 ACV-300 Hundred cost like 1 German Puma.
> 
> So it will Cost-Effective
> 
> 
> Our Version can Swim *


* Gepards (like Leopards) can swim.*


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## mehmeTcc

madmusti said:


> So it will Cost-Effective
> 
> 
> Our Version can *Swim *








Yeah, they definitely need a swimming SPAAG system.


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## BordoEnes

Juice said:


> Gepards (like Leopards) can swim.



Gepards and Leopard arent amphibious like Korkut, I think he ment that but confused it with swimming

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## Juice

BordoEnes said:


> Gepards and Leopard arent amphibious like Korkut, I think he ment that but confused it with swimming



If he meant fording or wading....they gotta kit...


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## madmusti



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## BLACKEAGLE



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## Super Falcon

well looks good tanguska is not bad i love russian ant aircraft system alot


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## Penguin

BLACKEAGLE said:


> *Dutch Cheetah air defence guns sold to Jordan
> *
> The Netherlands and Jordan have struck a &#8364;21 million deal that will see 60 surplus Cheetah air defence systems being transferred to the Jordanian armed forces.
> 
> The agreement also includes the delivery of Cheetah spare parts, some 350,000 rounds of surplus ammunition and technical documentation. In addition, five Leopard 1 armoured recovery vehicles will be handed over to Jordan together with the hulls of 12 non-refurbished PRTL air defence systems and two Leopard 1 main battle tanks (MBT), which will be used for spare parts.
> 
> Eleven Thales Nederland Flycatcher Mk1 mobile radar fire control systems and 22 40mm Bofors L/70 guns are also included in the deal.
> 
> The Dutch Ministry of Defence will provide assistance with training and deliveries will commence in 2014.
> 
> The Cheetah is the Dutch variant of the German Gepard twin 35mm self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG) and is based on a slightly-modified Leopard 1 tank chassis.
> 
> Produced by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), the mobile air defence system is equipped with independent search and tracking radars, a search radar (S-band for the German vehicle and X-band for the Netherlands vehicle) installed at the rear of the turret, and a tracking radar (Ku band for the German vehicle and X/Ka band for the Netherlands) on the front of the turret.
> 
> The Dutch MoD acquired five pre-production and 95 production PRTLs, the last of which was delivered in 1979. In 1995 it was decided to refurbish 60 PRTLs, the first of which was redelivered in 1998. The upgrade programme was a bilateral effort with the German army concurrently refurbishing 147 of their Gepards.
> 
> The upgraded air defence gun was known as Cheetah in Dutch military service and its service life was planned to continue until 2015. However, due to a realignment of Dutch ground based air defence forces, the Cheetahs were withdrawn from service in 2007 and stored under the auspices of the Dutch Defence Material Organisation.
> 
> Germany phased out its last Gepards in 2010. Romania received 43 former German army Gepards in 2004 and Chile bought 30 in 2008. The latter deal was later cancelled due to high overhaul costs. In late 2012, another 36 upgraded Gepards were sold to Brazil.
> 
> Dutch Cheetah air defence guns sold to Jordan - News - Shephard
> 
> Jordanië koopt overtollige tanks - NOS Nieuws



Pics show GERMAN ARMY Gepards, not Dutch Cheetah's (PRTLs), which have different radars.

Gepard





Cheetah





Together





Note the similarity of Cheetah's and Flycatcher's radars





Compare, in turn, to Goalkeeper CIWS





.... you'ld think it family!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqgqCAFf56k

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## madooxno9

Saleem said:


> what a waste...it could have been spent on betterment of the people....



See who is talking  citizen of a nation which is ready to eat Grass to have nukes


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## BLACKEAGLE

@Penguin 

Thank you very much:

here are two variants of Gepard in service; the Dutch has a different radar installation.

* Germany*




Search radar: S band, 15 km range
Tracking radar: Ku band, 15 km range
Laser rangefinder

* Netherlands*




Search radar: X band, 15 km range
Tracking radar: X/Ka band, 13 km range
The Dutch version was officially called the PRTL (PantserRupsTegenLuchtdoelen or "Armoured Tracked Anti-Aircraft"), pronounced as "pruttle" by the soldiers. The Dutch series version was made public through a photograph of a vehicle from a C-Company, the first to be equipped with the new weapon. Traditionally all Dutch vehicles in a company have names beginning with the company designation letter and this vehicle happened to have the individual name Cheetah painted in bold type on its turret. Inevitably the international press assumed "Cheetah" was the Dutch name for their Gepard version and this mistake found its way into most armour publications on the subject. In 2000 the Dutch military authorities, tired of constantly having to explain all this and considering "pruttle" was hardly a martial name anyway, conformed themselves to common error and made "Cheetah" the official designation, when the system was upgraded.

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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> *We don´t know it but 7 ACV-300 Hundred cost like 1 German Puma.
> 
> So it will Cost-Effective
> 
> 
> Our Version can Swim *


*

I'm sure the basic ACV30 can swim, much like the 18ton stretched-M113 based EIFV ( Egyptian Infantry Fighting Vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and the Mobile Tactical Vehicle Light (MTVL) ( BAE Systems M113 Vehicle-MTVL Light ).

However, the twin 35mm gun vehicle and the radar vehicle have a combat weight of 30 tonnes while the C2 vehicle weighs 25.5 tonnes.... 
IDEF 2013: Aselsan unveils new SP air defence system | Armada









The ACV-S chassis is a stretched version of the ACV 300 vehicle currently in service for Turkish Armed Forces , Malaysian Armed Forces, Philippines and United Arab Emirates. The ACV-S technology is a combination of ACV 300 and the Mobile Tactical Vehicle Light (MTVL). Combat Weight 18,000 kg

Click to expand...

FNSS
ACV-S Tracked Armoured Combat Vehicle - Army Technology

I wouldn't be so sure the SPAAG remains fully amphibious (even if the base vehicle is....)*


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## madmusti

@Penguin

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## flamer84

BLACKEAGLE said:


> *Dutch Cheetah air defence guns sold to Jordan
> *
> The Netherlands and Jordan have struck a 21 million deal that will see 60 surplus Cheetah air defence systems being transferred to the Jordanian armed forces.
> 
> 
> Dutch Cheetah air defence guns sold to Jordan - News - Shephard
> 
> Jordanië koopt overtollige tanks - NOS Nieuws




The second picture are german Gepards in the romanian army,it's the parade of the 1st December(Romania national day).Many in the country complain that the Gepard is an obsolete system and we threw money away,i personally like them though.

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## madmusti

Turkish Korkut is something like the Skyshield from Swiss & German Mantis and it´s *MOBILE !!!*.

Tunguska & Gepard are only against Aircraft & Heli´s.

They cannot Protect you from example Artillery-Shells.







Wake up and see the Difference.

Those are old Systems ,especially the Gepard ,maybe we will see the German Mantis on a Leo1 Chassis or Trucks or Puma.







Actually only Turkey has Presented a Mobile Version of this Solution.

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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> @Penguin



So, Dutch YPR765 - which predate the FNSS ACV300 and ACV-S tracked vehicles - also had buoyancy aid like that forward (but weighed only 14 tons, like ACV-15). AIFV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And yes, those are thrusters, I agree. M113 and AIFV are propelled by their tracks alone and do not need them. But e.g. Arisgator has. 

I remain sceptical 

The base ACV-19 vehicle is 18 tons (without AAA turret!), like the equally amphib BEA/FMC MTLV. 
Maximum Combat Weight 20t (i.e. loaded) ACV-S Tracked Armoured Combat Vehicle - Army Technology

How many 30 tonners do you know that actually float? M2/3 Bradley certainly doesn't anymore. See also K21 KNGIV K21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which seems to have difficulty with buoyancy at 30 tons.

But perhaps it doesn't weigh 30 tons....?








> By VMSB
> 
> FNSS Savunma Sistemleri A&#350; of Turkey has recently presented an amphibious logistics version of its ACV-19 (Armored Combat Vehicle) family of tracked armoured vehicles. The vehicle also designated ZLA (Zirhli Lojistik Araci) is equipped with a NBC protection system, 24V electric system, climate control system, ballistic and mine protection systems. For self-protection, it is armed with a manned or remote weapon station armed with 12.7mm heavy machine gun and eight smoke grenade dischargers.
> 
> The vehicle has a combat weight of 18,500 kg, length of 6.380 m, width of 2.946 m, payload of 6,000 kg, volume capacity of 6.2 m3, top speed of 65 km/h and top amphibious speed of 11 km/h, and maximum range of 490 km. It is powered by a Detroit Diesel Corporation 6V53T diesel engine with 350 hp coupled to an Allison Transmission X200-4 fully automatic transmission.
> 
> As for mission systems, ZLA include a HIAB Cargotec 172R hydraulic handling crane with a loading capacity of 1,600 kg and a hydraulic operated HZ 090 roof-mounted pulling winch from Rotzler GmbH + Co. KG which has a maximum towing capacity of 10, 197 kg at a maximum distance of 65 m.
> 
> ACV 19 family of tracked armoured vehicles is proposed in several variant including troop carrier, low level air defence system (ex. with Aselsan Elektronik Sanayi ve Ticaret A&#350; Korkut twin 35 mm gun system), casualty/medical evacuation, 120 mm mobile mortar carrier (ex. with TDA Armements 2R2M system), command post and infantry fighting vehicle.
> 
> Compared to ACV-15 family of tracked armoured vehicles, ACV-19 is longer (8 road wheels), has heavy duty final drives, includes more aggressive suspension and offers more volume under armor and more payload capacity.
> 
> Saudi Arabia has purchased the command post version of ACV-19 and the Royal Malaysian Army operates the 120 mm mortar carrier variant (with 2R2M system) of ACV-19. ACV-19 was previously designated ACV-S (Stretched). ACV-15 multi-role vehicle (formerly ACV-300) is in service with the armies of Turkey, United Arab Emirates (UAE), Malaysia and the Philippines


DEFESA Global


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## BLACKEAGLE

madmusti said:


> Turkish Korkut is something like the Skyshield from Swiss & German Mantis and it´s *MOBILE !!!*.
> 
> Tunguska & Gepard are only against Aircraft & Heli´s.
> 
> They cannot Protect you from example Artillery-Shells.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wake up and see the Difference.
> 
> Those are old Systems ,especially the Gepard ,maybe we will see the German Mantis on a Leo1 Chassis or Trucks or Puma.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually only Turkey has Presented a Mobile Version of this Solution.



Fantastic, I had no idea that this system is such a revolutionary one. Just brilliant.

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## BronzePlaque

@Penguin, just out of curiosity, are you in the military or are you just a military enthusiast? Your contribution here is always good man..Congrats


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## madmusti

@Penguin 

There is a big Difference between the Turkish Ones and Dutch YPR765´s.

And they all come from USA ,so where is the Dutch ???

The solution of the K21:


















Maybe we see this solution next ? 






*
The Russian 9K22 Tunguska based too on a IFV-Chassis and not Tank.*


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## Penguin

ACV-15 is very similar to YPR-756 and KIFV (clearly, there are also many differences e.g. in engine, but the base vehicle is pretty similar in concept). ACV-19 is a stetched ACV-15, just like the MTVL is a stretched M113. Germans have converted m113s from 5 to 36 roadwheel versions. There is nothing magical about that. You end up with a 18-20 ton base vehicle. If you add 10 tons of wheight, what happens to amphibious/swimming capability?

If you ask what the Dutch added to the US AIFV then you shoul also ask what Turkey added to the YPR later on, or South Korea for that matter.


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## Penguin

BronzePlaque said:


> @Penguin, just out of curiosity, are you in the military or are you just a military enthusiast? Your contribution here is always good man..Congrats



I remain a civilian ;-)


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## madmusti

And Bradley is a Heavy ACV.

All from USA.


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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> And Bradley is a Heavy ACV.
> 
> All from USA.



In 1967, under contract to the US Army, the then Ordnance Division of the FMC Corporation (today BAE Systems, Ground Systems Division) built two MICVs under the designation XM765. These were based on the proven M113 APC modified to incorporate firing ports and a fully enclosed one-person weapon station.

Without the DUtch interest and launnch order for 880 of the vehicles in 1975, there would have only been the two XM765 prototypes. Some changes were made at the request of the Dutch government, including shifting the weapon station to the right side and moving the commander behind the driver. The Netherlands ordered 2,079, of which 815 were produced locally under license. The Philippines also received 45 vehicles in 1979 (hardly a sufficient quantity to warrent moving from prototype to series production). In 1979, the Netherlands neighbour Belgium placed an order for 514 AIFV-B (to be produced locally), following the Dutch lead.

Turkey selected the AIFV [only] in 1989, after a competition involving the Alvis Vickers Warrior IFV and United Defense LP Armoured Infantry Fighting Vehicle. The total value of that contract, for 1,698 vehicles, was US$1.076 billion. The first 285 hulls were produced in Belgium, the remaining vehicles were produced in Turkey.A little way into the production run, with 200 vehicles completed the Turkish AIFV specification was updated to include a more powerful power pack developing 300 horsepower, an Allison X-200-4 transmission and hydrostatic steering from the M113A3. During the production run, a number of changes were made to the armament of the vehicle including different turret packages, and power packs.

n January 1993, the Royal Netherlands Army announced substantial cuts including the phasing out of 336 of the AIFV (YPR 765) infantry fighting vehicles and 201 YPR 765 PRATs with the TOW ATGW system. In addition, all M113 series vehicles would be phased out of service. The YPR vehicle will be replaced by 184 CV-9035 vehicles (from the Swedish company Hägglunds), 400 reconnaissance type Fennek and 200 Boxer vehicles. 

In mid-1994, the Netherlands stated that Egypt was to purchase a total of 611 AIFVs and variants under a contract worth USD150 million. All of these were delivered by the end of 1996. In early 2005 it was stated that another 431 YPR 765 series APCs were to be provided by the Netherlands, with first deliveries in mid-2005. This brought the total Egyptian fleet to 1,042 units.

Army Guide - YPR 765, Tracked armoured personnel carrier
AIFV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> Actually only Turkey has Presented a Mobile Version of this Solution.




Really ? Oerlikon Skyranger Mobile Air Defence System





Army Guide - Skyshield 35/1000, Anti-aircraft system





http://www.mjsys.co.kr/product/eng/weapon-system.html










OMG.... looks like even a Dutch version might come about?! Don't those radars look like Thales Netherlands Flycatcher mk 2 components?













India:






> At the same time, both the Army and IAF have zeroed in on the Rheinmetall Defence-built Skyranger 35mm gun, which can be mounted on lightweight wheeled or tracked armored vehicles. For the IAF, the Skyranger turret will be mounted on a TATA Motors-built 8 x 8 high-mobility vehicle, while the Army variant will comprise the Skyranger turret being integrated with the hull of a BMP-2 infantry combat vehicle


http://trishul-trident.blogspot.nl/2011/05/plugging-air-defence-gaps-with-ground.html


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## madmusti

Penguin said:


> Really ? Oerlikon Skyranger Mobile Air Defence System
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Army Guide - Skyshield 35/1000, Anti-aircraft system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG.... looks like even a Dutch version might come about?! Don't those radars look like Thales Netherlands Flycatcher mk 2 components?



Those are new and not used.

And nothing is the same like Aselsans version ,it had 2 Cannons and it´s tracked and it has too like all others 2 Vehicles,who all need.



Oour Version is finished ,but i don´t see that Mobile Versions like on the Boxer are not finished.

Does it takes long time to find this ?


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## madmusti

@Penguin

We can too make the Aselsan SPAAG Korkut system like Tunguska with Rockets & AA-Gun´s (like Mantis).


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Penguin said:


> India:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TRISHUL: Plugging Air-Defence Gaps With Ground-Based AAA



The source is a blog from 2011 written by an idiot presun gupta... also no skyrangers were bought... and tht image is a PS.


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## madmusti




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## Penguin

Seriously. what are you guys trying to prove?


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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> @Penguin
> 
> We can too make the Aselsan SPAAG Korkut system like Tunguska with Rockets & AA-Gun´s (like Mantis).





Didn't say you can't. Did respond to claim Turkey makes the only mobile system of this kind (=not true)


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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> Those are new and not used.


Ans the Aselsan system is old and used?



madmusti said:


> And nothing is the same like Aselsans version ,it had 2 Cannons and it´s tracked and it has too like all others 2 Vehicles,who all need.


2 single 'old style' 35mm versus the Myriad single advanced gun (just rubbin' it in, I have faith in both systems)
Note the version on the German Puma tracked vehicle.





madmusti said:


> Oour Version is finished ,but i don´t see that Mobile Versions like on the Boxer are not finished.


And as I said ' might be coming along' .... besides the other mobile systems, that is. Pic is from Eurosatory 2008 by the way... you think 5 years nothing was done?
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Eurosat08.htm



madmusti said:


> Does it takes long time to find this ?


No, about 3 minutes worth of googling images with the right key words  Why, what are your suggesting?


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## Penguin

Personally, I favor:

Otomatic






Draco





Match that with capabilities of Strales 76mm naval gun .... sweet!


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## madmusti

@Penguin

Turkish Version is Gepard + Skyshield.

Personally my Favor : 






*It´s an AA Gun.*


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## Ceylal

Loki said:


> *Israel *and* Iran *


how is that?
one is their friend and the other thousands miles away


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## Zabaniyah

Ceylal said:


> how is that?
> one is their friend and the other thousands miles away



I was just joking mate

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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> @Penguin
> 
> Turkish Version is Gepard + Skyshield.
> 
> Personally my Favor :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *It´s an AA Gun.*



The KwK 43 L/71 was an 8.8 cm calibre tank gun designed by Krupp and used by the German Wehrmacht, during the Second World War. It was the primary armament of the Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B Tiger II. At 6.24 m the barrel of the KwK 43 was over 1.3 meters longer than that of the 8.8 cm KwK L/56 used for the Tiger I. The anti-tank gun version of this weapon was known as the PaK 43. The Pak 43 (Panzerabwehrkanone 43) was a German 88 mm anti-tank gun developed by Krupp in competition with the Rheinmetall 8.8 cm Flak 41 anti-aircraft gun and used during the Second World War.

The 88 mm gun (eighty-eight) was a German anti-aircraft and anti-tank artillery gun from World War II.The name applies to a series of guns, the first one officially called the 8,8 cm Flak 18, the improved 8,8 cm Flak 36, and later the 8,8 cm Flak 37. The versatile carriage allowed the eighty-eight to be fired in a limited anti-tank mode when still on wheels,[2] and to be completely emplaced in only two-and-a-half minutes. Its successful use as an improvised anti-tank gun led to the development of a tank gun based upon it. These related guns served as the main armament of tanks such as the Tiger I: the 8.8 cm KwK 36.

In addition to these Krupp designs, Rheinmetall later created a more powerful anti-aircraft gun, the 8,8 cm Flak 41, which was produced in relatively small numbers. Krupp responded with another prototype of the long-barreled 88 mm gun, which was further developed into the anti-tank and tank destroyer 8.8 cm Pak 43 gun used for the Elefant and Jagdpanther, and turret-mounted 8.8 cm KwK 43 heavy tank gun of the Tiger II.

At the time Rheinmetall developed Flak 41, Krupp's tried to compete with their 8.8 cm Gerät 42 proposal, but it was not accepted for production as an anti-aircraft gun. Krupp continued development, resulting in the dreaded 8.8 cm Pak 43 anti-tank gun and 8.8 cm KwK 43 tank gun. The standard armament of the Tiger II, the KwK 43 tank gun, was essentially the Pak 43 externally modified to fit into a turret. 

88×571R mm cartridge: 8.8 cm Flak 18/36/37 and 8.8 cm KwK 36
88×855R mm cartridge: 8.8 cm Flak 41
88×822R mm cartridge: 8.8 cm Gerät 42 (defunct FLAK design: never entered service), 8.8 cm Pak 43 and 8.8 cm KwK 43

Actually NOT a AA gun therefor.


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## madmusti

Penguin said:


> The KwK 43 L/71 was an 8.8 cm calibre tank gun designed by Krupp and used by the German Wehrmacht, during the Second World War. It was the primary armament of the Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B Tiger II. At 6.24 m the barrel of the KwK 43 was over 1.3 meters longer than that of the 8.8 cm KwK L/56 used for the Tiger I. The anti-tank gun version of this weapon was known as the PaK 43. The Pak 43 (Panzerabwehrkanone 43) was a German 88 mm anti-tank gun developed by Krupp in competition with the Rheinmetall 8.8 cm Flak 41 anti-aircraft gun and used during the Second World War.
> 
> The 88 mm gun (eighty-eight) was a German anti-aircraft and anti-tank artillery gun from World War II.The name applies to a series of guns, the first one officially called the 8,8 cm Flak 18, the improved 8,8 cm Flak 36, and later the 8,8 cm Flak 37. The versatile carriage allowed the eighty-eight to be fired in a limited anti-tank mode when still on wheels,[2] and to be completely emplaced in only two-and-a-half minutes. Its successful use as an improvised anti-tank gun led to the development of a tank gun based upon it. These related guns served as the main armament of tanks such as the Tiger I: the 8.8 cm KwK 36.
> 
> In addition to these Krupp designs, Rheinmetall later created a more powerful anti-aircraft gun, the 8,8 cm Flak 41, which was produced in relatively small numbers. Krupp responded with another prototype of the long-barreled 88 mm gun, which was further developed into the anti-tank and tank destroyer 8.8 cm Pak 43 gun used for the Elefant and Jagdpanther, and turret-mounted 8.8 cm KwK 43 heavy tank gun of the Tiger II.
> 
> At the time Rheinmetall developed Flak 41, Krupp's tried to compete with their 8.8 cm Gerät 42 proposal, but it was not accepted for production as an anti-aircraft gun. Krupp continued development, resulting in the dreaded 8.8 cm Pak 43 anti-tank gun and 8.8 cm KwK 43 tank gun. The standard armament of the Tiger II, the KwK 43 tank gun, was essentially the Pak 43 externally modified to fit into a turret.
> 
> 88×571R mm cartridge: 8.8 cm Flak 18/36/37 and 8.8 cm KwK 36
> 88×855R mm cartridge: 8.8 cm Flak 41
> 88×822R mm cartridge: 8.8 cm Gerät 42 (defunct FLAK design: never entered service), 8.8 cm Pak 43 and 8.8 cm KwK 43
> 
> Actually NOT a AA gun therefor.



AA ,read in German and Not English stupid Holländer.


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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> AA ,read in German and Not English stupid Holländer.



Revealing your true self? Weak, to resort to namecalling ....

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> AA ,read in German and Not English stupid Holländer.



Revealing your true self? Weak, to resort to namecalling ....
Dort verrät sich dein wahres Selbst. Sehr schwach, wenn mann auf schimpfen zurück muss greifen ....


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## madmusti

Penguin said:


> Revealing your true self? Weak, to resort to namecalling ....
> Dort verrät sich dein wahres Selbst. Sehr schwach, wenn mann auf schimpfen zurück muss greifen ....



Soll das "Deutsch" sein ?

Da musst du noch sehr viel an der "Grammatik" pfeilen.


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## BLACKEAGLE

What happened here?


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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> Soll das "Deutsch" sein ?
> 
> Da musst du noch sehr viel an der "Grammatik" pfeilen.




I don't need to speak or write German on a regular basis, and - unlike you - I'm not fresh out of high school,... so what? How does that reflect on my reading ability? You were still resorting to namecalling rather than responding substantively and you are now shifting the topic to whether or not I am fluent in German. Meanwhile, speaking of language mastery, how's your Dutch? Or French? Or Portugese? Or Suid Afrikaans? What is your problem any way? Can't stand someone posting in 'your' thread? Grow up, will ya.


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## Penguin

> Ursprünglich war die Waffe eine Konkurrenzentwicklung von Krupp zur später als 8,8-cm-Flak 41 bekannt gewordenen Flugabwehrkanone von Rheinmetall-Borsig, allerdings erhielt diese erste Ausarbeitung keine Zustimmung. Erst nach einer Überarbeitung der Pläne wurde der modifizierte Entwurf vom Heereswaffenamt als Panzerabwehrwaffe akzeptiert und in Produktion gegeben.


https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/8,8-cm-PaK_43


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## madmusti

Penguin said:


> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/8,8-cm-PaK_43



And = ? This will change nothing ? How much you know about WW 2 ? pls stop post from Wikipedia.


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## Penguin

madmusti said:


> And = ? This will change nothing ? How much you know about WW 2 ? pls stop post from Wikipedia.



And... as with the English tekst, it shows the gun was never put into production as FLAK. Only as PAK and KwK. And it has a different round, ocmpared to the well known 88 FLAK. Meanwhile, I will use Wiki as and when I please. Also, for someone less than half my age, it is probably not a good idea to be attempting to lecture me about WW2. My parents were in it, for example, were yours? 






88mm FLAK 18/36/37 (using the 88×571R mm cartridge)






The Prototype 88s were first produced in 1928. The early models were the Flak 18 and they used a single piece barrel with a length of 56 calibres, leading to the most commonly seen designation of L/56. The Flak 18 was mounted on a cruciform gun carriage.A simple to operate semi-automatic loading system ejected fired shells, allowing it to be reloaded by simply inserting a new shell into a tray. The gun would then fire, recoil, and, during the return stroke, the empty casing would be thrown backward by levers, and a cam would engage and recock the gun. This resulted in firing rates of 15 to 20 rounds a minute, better than similar weapons of the era.

Series production started with the Nazi rise to power in 1933, and the Flak 18 was available in small numbers when Germany intervened in the Spanish Civil War. It quickly proved to be the best anti aircraft weapon then available, and the high muzzle velocity and large calibre made it an excellent long range anti-vehicle type of weapon. This experience also demonstrated a number of minor problems and potential improvement opportunities. Many of these were incorporated into the Flak 36, which had a two-piece barrel for easier replacement of worn liners. Its new, heavier, carriage allowed it to fire while in an emergency mode when still on wheels and without grounding outriggers, but with only a very limited traverse and elevation. Flak 36s were often fitted with an armoured shield that provided limited protection for the gunners. 

The later Flak 37, included updated instrumentation to allow the gunlayers to follow directions from the single director more easily. The parts of the various versions of the guns were interchangeable, and it was not uncommon for various parts to be "mixed and matched" on a particular example.


8.8cm FLAK 41 (using the 88×855R mm cartridge)






Due to the problems of defending against attack by high flying aircraft the Luftwaffe asked for newer weapons with even better performance from as early as 1939. Rheinmetall responded with a new 88 mm L/71 design with a longer cartridge, the 8.8 cm Flak 41, with a prototype ready in 1941.It featured a lower silhouette on its turntable mounting than did the 8.8-cm Flak 18/36/37 on its pedestal mounting. Two types of gun barrel were used, with three or four sections. Improvements in reloading raised the firing rate, with 20 to 25 rounds a minute being often quoted.

8.8cm Pak 43 and Pak 43/41 (using the 88×822R mm cartridge)




At the time Rheinmetall developed the Flak 41, Krupp's tried to compete with their 8.8 cm Gerät 42 proposal, but it was not accepted for production as an FLAK gun. Krupp continued development, resulting in the dreaded 8.8 cm Pak 43 anti-tank gun and its sister the 8.8 cm KwK 43 tank gun. Pak 43 (abbreviation of Panzerabwehrkanone 43) used a new cruciform mount with the gun much closer to the ground, making it far easier to hide and therefore that much harder to hit with counter battery fire or tank gunfire. It was also provided with a much stronger and more angled armour shield to provide better protection. 8.8 cm Pak 43/41: Pak 43 gun mounted on single axle split-trail field gun carriage produced as a stop-gap measure due to scarcity of materials.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16118167@N04/6150264733/


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## madmusti

@Penguin

You know @that Time there Planes doens´t have Jet Engines.

Im talking against a WALL. I quit.


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## Penguin

The Heinkel He 176 was a German rocket-powered aircraft. It was the world&#8217;s first aircraft to be propelled solely by a liquid-fuelled rocket, making its first powered flight on 20 June 1939 with Erich Warsitz at the controls.

The Heinkel He 178 was the *world's first aircraft to fly under turbojet power*, and the first practical jet aircraft. It was a private venture by the German Heinkel company and first flew on 27 August *1939*, piloted by Erich Warsitz. 

The Heinkel He 280 was the *first turbojet-powered fighter aircraft in the world*. The first prototype was completed in the summer of 1940. Fritz Schäfer would take the second prototype into the air under its own power for the first time, on 30 March *1941*. 

After the successful test flights of the first jet of the world, the Heinkel He 178, the Germans adopted the jet engine for an advanced fighter aircraft. As a result, the *Me 262* was already under development as Projekt 1065 (P.1065) before the start of World War II. Plans were first drawn up in April 1939, and the original design was very similar to the aircraft that eventually entered service. The V3 third prototype airframe, with the code PC+UC, became a true jet when it *flew on 18 July 1942* in Leipheim near Günzburg, Germany, piloted by Fritz Wendel. This was almost *nine months ahead of the British Gloster Meteor's first flight on 5 March 1943*. 

The Gloster Meteor was the first British jet fighter and the Allies' first operational jet aircraft. The Meteor's development was heavily reliant on its ground-breaking turbojet engines, developed by Sir Frank Whittle and his company, Power Jets Ltd. Development of the aircraft began in 1940, work on the engines had started in 1936. *The Meteor first flew in 1943 and commenced operations on 27 July 1944 *

However, rather than the Meteor, *the Gloster E.28/39*, (also referred to as the "Gloster Whittle", "Gloster Pioneer", or "Gloster G.40") *was the first British jet-engined aircraft to fly*. It was designed to test the Whittle jet engine in flight, leading to the development of the Gloster Meteor. Although the initial flight tests were relatively early in the Second World War, the German Heinkel He 178 had been first test flown on 27 August 1939, at Rostock-Marienehe on the Baltic Coast, days before the outbreak of the war. The E.28/39 was delivered to Brockworth for ground tests beginning on 7 April 1941, using a non-flightworthy version of the Power Jets W.1 engine. O*n 15 May 1941*, Gloster's Chief Test Pilot, Flight Lieutenant Gerry Sayer flew the aircraft under jet power for the first time.

The de *Havilland DH.100 Vampire* was a British jet fighter commissioned by the Royal Air Force during the Second World War. Following the Gloster Meteor, it was the second jet fighter to enter service with the RAF.Under Air Ministry specification E.6/41 for two prototypes, design work on the DH.100 began at the de Havilland works at Hatfield in mid-1942, two years after the Meteor. The de Havilland chief test pilot and son of the company's founder, test flew prototype Serial number LZ548/G on its *maiden flight on 20 September 1943*.


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## madmusti

@Penguin.


What kind of an idiot are you ? Only Germans Uses Jet Fighters and this in 1945 where the war comes to be an End.

Americans uses mostly in Europe P-47 Thunderbolt or England with his Spitfire.

Those are easy targets on low altitude for an Kingtiger with his Gun.


The mostly Jet´s of the Allies during WWII was only tested or Prototype.


Don´t talk here about something that you have read on Wikipedia ,look what Weapons or Tanks or Planes are used in War ,they call it a Wolrd War an not something different.

Do you think Germans are using there Planes agains them´s own Tanks ?

The Kingtiger was an Titan ,if you haven´t seen an really one ,then go and do that.

It´s not like a Leopard 2.

Do you know how accurate and reliable German Guns was ?


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## Penguin

I have a funny feeling you will tell me all about it, notwithstanding being half my age and - probably - education. More name calling, eh?



> The Messerschmitt 262 was introduced in *April of 1944*


WWII



> On *19 April 1944*, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, as a test unit (Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder, commanded by Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder) to introduce the 262 into service and train a core of pilots to fly it. On *26 July 1944*, Leutnant Alfred Schreiber with the 262 A-1a W.Nr. 130 017 damaged a Mosquito reconnaissance aircraft of No. 540 Squadron RAF PR Squadron, which was allegedly lost in a crash upon landing at an air base in Italy. Other sources state the aircraft was damaged during evasive manoeuvres and escaped.
> 
> It was the first victory for a turbojet fighter aircraft in aviation history
> 
> By *January 1945*, Jagdgeschwader 7 (JG 7) had been formed as a pure jet fighter wing, although it was several weeks before it was operational. In the meantime, a bomber unit&#8212;I Gruppe, Kampfgeschwader 54 (KG 54)&#8212;had re-equipped with the Me 262 A-2a fighter-bomber for use in a ground-attack role.
> 
> Jagdverband 44 (JV 44) was another Me 262 fighter unit, of Staffel (squadron) size given the low numbers of available personnel, formed in February 1945 by Lieutenant General Adolf Galland, who had recently been dismissed as Inspector of Fighters.
> 
> During *March [1945]*, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount large scale attacks on Allied bomber formations.


Messerschmitt Me 262 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> On *12 January 1944*, the first Meteor F.1, serial EE210/G, took to the air.
> The first service deliveries to the RAF began in *July 1944*, to No. 616 Squadron RAF
> The Meteor was initially used to counter the V-1 flying bomb threat.
> 616 Squadron Meteors saw action for the first time on 27 July 1944, when three aircraft were active over Kent.
> These were the first operational jet combat missions for the Meteor and for the Royal Air Force.
> No. 616 Squadron exchanged its F.1s for the first Meteor F.3s on 18 *December 1944*.
> 
> Judging the Meteor F.3s were ready for combat over Europe, the RAF finally decided to deploy them in the continent. On *20 January 1945*, four Meteors were moved to Melsbroek in Belgium and attached to the Second Tactical Air Force. Their initial purpose was to provide air defence for the airfield, but their pilots hoped that their presence might provoke the Luftwaffe into sending Me 262s against them. At this point the Meteor pilots were still forbidden to fly over German-occupied territory, or to go east of Eindhoven, to prevent a downed aircraft being captured by the Germans or the Soviets.
> In *March [1945]*, the entire squadron was moved to Gilze-Rijen and then in April, to Nijmegen. The Meteors flew armed reconnaissance and ground attack operations without encountering any German jet fighters. By late *April [1945]*, the squadron was based at Faßberg, Germany and suffered its first losses when two aircraft collided in poor visibility.


Gloster Meteor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
see also Gloster Meteor

FYI: Eindhoven, Glize-Rijen and Nijmegen are in ... the Netherlands.

Interestingly, good wiki pages are always loaded with references to original source materials, mostly verifiable books and article.


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## Penguin

> The first five production King Tigers were issued to Panzer Lehr Division (Panzer Kompanie Funklenk 316), but were not used in combat. The first time the Tiger II saw action was in May 1944 near Minsk, followed by another action (of schwere Panzer Abteilung 501 commanded by Oberstleutnant von Legat) in July 1944 atSandomierz in Poland. Only two companies of schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 commanded by Hauptmann Fromme, equipped with Tiger II tanks (with Porsche turrets), were committed to the fighting in Normandy, where their mechanical problems and Allied fighter-bombers as well naval gunfire proved fatal and, by the end of August 1944, all were lost. *Tiger II tanks of schwere Panzer Abteilung 506 commanded by Major Lange, saw combat during the "Market Garden" operation in Holland in September of 1944.* King Tigers also took part in the Ardennes Offensive, serving with schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 501 (Kampfgruppe Peiper). On the Eastern Front, Tiger II tanks took part in the fighting in Hungary and in central Poland in 1944 and 1945. The Tiger II saw combat on both Western and Eastern Fronts, where it proved to be a superb weapon and worthy opponent when operated by an experienced crew and properly maintained. A small number of King Tigers also defended Berlin in April and May of 1945


Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger II Ausf. B Konigstiger / King(Royal)Tiger / Tiger II Sd. Kfz. 182



> Finale at Arnhem, Holland 24/9/1944, by David Pentland.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last Pz.Kpfw. VI Tiger II (Kingtigers) of 2nd Company 506th Heavy Tank Battalion, drive south across the Arnhem bridge to prepare for the upcoming counter-attack to retake Elst and the Nymegen road bridge.


Page 16



> In early 1945 Dutch civilians look over the Tiger II destroyed in Oosterbeek [Netherlands] by Lieutenant Adrian Donaldson and Lance-Bombardier James (Jim) Dickson MM on the 25th September 1944.


© Defending Arnhem
I really don't know why I should have to discuss Tiger 2 with you... talk about topic-shifting.


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## Penguin

> The Arado Ar 234 was the world's first operational jet-powered bomber. In autumn 1940, the Reich Air Ministry (German: Reichsluftfahrtministerium, abbreviated RLM) offered a tender for a jet-powered high-speed reconnaissance aircraft with a range of 2,156 km (1,340 mi). Arado was the only company to respond RLM liked the design and ordered two prototypes as the Ar 234. These were largely complete before the end of 1941, but the Jumo 004 engines were not ready, and would not be ready until February 1943. When they did arrive they were considered unreliable by Junkers for in-flight use and were only cleared for static and taxi tests. Flight-qualified engines were finally delivered that spring, and the Ar 234 V1 made its first flight on 15 June 1943 at Rheine Airfield. By September 1943, four prototypes were flying. The Ar 234 V7 prototype made history on 2 August 1944 as the first jet aircraft ever to fly a reconnaissance mission, flown by Erich Sommer.The ninth prototype, marked with Stammkennzeichen (radio code letters) PH+SQ, was the prototype Ar 234B, and flew on 10 March 1944. 20 B-0 pre-production aircraft were delivered by the end of June 1944. Overall from the summer of 1944 until the end of the war a total of 210 aircraft were built. Meanwhile, several of the Ar 234 prototypes - including a few of the surviving eight "trolley-and-skids" Ar 234A-series prototypes - were sent forward in the reconnaissance role. In most cases, it appears they were never even detected, cruising at about 740 km/h (460 mph) at over 9,100 m (29,900 ft), with the seventh prototype achieving the first-ever wartime reconnaissance mission over the United Kingdom by a Luftwaffe-used jet aircraft. It was the last Luftwaffe aircraft to fly over England during the war, in April 1945. In February 1945, production was switched to the C variant. It was hoped that by November 1945 production would reach 500 per month. The most notable use of the Ar 234 in the bomber role was the attempt to destroy the Ludendorff Bridge at Remagen in March 1945. Only one Ar 234 survives today.


Arado Ar 234 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Penguin

> Anyway, on 5 February 1943, Krupp was awarded the contract for the development of the 88 mm KwK 43 L/71, a new gun specifically designed to the successor of the Tiger I._* The only similarity between this gun designed by Krupp and the Rheinmetall Flak 41 was that the same penetration values were achieved when the same shell was fired with the same initial muzzle velocity. All other characteristics of the two guns were different.*_ Following the main specification to achieve equivalent armor penetration, Krupp completely redesigned the gun for mounting in a tank turret. As compared to the Flak 41 L/74, the KwK 43 L/71 was shorter with different rifling and had a muzzle brake to retard recoil. In addition it had shorter, fatter recoil cylinders to fit inside a turret, had an air blast system fitted to evacuate fumes from the gun directly after firing and chambered a shorter (but thicker) cartridge case for easier loading inside a turret.


PzKpfw VI TIGER II




> The turret could be rotated 360 degrees in 60 seconds in low gear independent of engine rpm, in 19 seconds in high gear at idle engine speed, and within 10 seconds at the maximum allowable engine speed. The direction and speed of traverse was controlled by the gunner through pedals, or a control lever near his left arm


Tiger II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Max elevation 15 degrees.


Germany's Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf B, Königstiger, SdKfz 182 heavy tank - World War II Vehicles, Tanks, and Airplanes

For modern day LEO2 turrect 360 traverse speed is about 12 seconds in observation mode, and 9 while in full stab. On the move. At any speed or gear...

WHich is a better tank to go gunning for aircraft with? Certainly not done by Tiger 2s.


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