# SAC FC-31 Stealth Fighter: News & Discussions



## Donation

Shenyang: J-31.

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## sweetgrape

My god, what's this? My heart. it like F22 too much, sh!t, will attract too much troller.
Unbelievable, Seems we have huge technology accumulation, whatever, it is good for us, keep on china!!
later, maybe this year, we will see Y-20, New bomber also on the way, CCP are being crazy!!

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## TaoLi

I think you will see it fly soon

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## ao333

What's with the insignia? Is this plane even Chinese?


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## Hyperion

Eeeeee-Haaaaaa... What is that?

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## kkacer

1) 16 Sept 1:30am exposure

2) No. J-31001

3) Black paint, the nose is light gray

4) large edge ~ DSI ~

5) large vertical tail

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## SinoChallenger

PS...... never seen a PLAAF fighter with tail fins painted like that

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## A.Rafay

Thats COOL, Is this have similarities with j20, Looks like it!


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## kkacer

1) 16 Sept 1:30am exposure

2) No. J-31001

3) Black paint, the nose is light gray

4) large edge ~ DSI ~

5) large vertical tail


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## shuttler

wow! twin engines installed with WS-10?


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## Zabaniyah

Looks like a J-20 with a......regular.....layout

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## Sasquatch

PS.


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## Sasquatch

SinoChallenger said:


> PS...... never seen a PLAAF fighter with tail fins painted like that




Agreed. Never seen anything like this even in the early J-20 photos.

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## Audio

Looking good! I like it.

I wonder though how Martian will react, it looks to have a cockpit not from one single piece, a feature he slammed tirelessly for the PAK-FA.

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## kkacer

updated updated


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## Sasquatch

The insignia is wrong and looks PS.


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## Hyperion

Yippeeeeeee...... show more pics..... me like sudden bangs!!


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## TaoLi

Gosh, i thought it is real. it already posted in china website.


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## shuttler

WTF I see one tail fin painted with an eagle on it !!!!!!!!??? and WS-10 twin engines ?


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## Sasquatch

TaoLi said:


> Gosh, i thought it is real. it already posted in china website.



Like the early J-20 Pics, I think we should wait.

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## kkacer

Hu Songshan said:


> The insignia is wrong and looks PS.



100% real, confirmed.

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## shuttler

Another thread was posted about the same time: A *J-31?*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/207797-j-31-chinese-5th-stealth-fighter-out.html#post3411222

This could be one with RQ-170 technology!


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## Irfan Baloch

Bobby said:


> Which US plane is copy paste here ?



how many do you think US has that look like the one above? there is only one that looks like that, the one that melts in the rain I mean

hehe.. looks like China is going to flood the market with these rip-offs before American product comes out in good numbers.


sorry joke aside, how the hell China is able to fund so many 5th Gen projects when even the first one is not fully completed and commissioned into Chinese Air force?

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## shuttler

Another thread similar content:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/207790-21704-21704-21704-a.html#post3411232


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## TaoLi

I am Chinese, i think i know we work style. Someone said it will coming in September some days age. Like you said, When J-20 was coming, many peoples and experts said is PS. But it is real. I bet it is real.


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## Tshering22

Oh another one? 

Guess there are rival design bureaus competing with each other to get the government contract. It is impressive how Chinese have emulated the US style of getting bureaus (in US, companies) to compete against each other for government contracts.

Judging by this, I am thinking that it is going to be a J-20 vs J-31 showdown before PLAAF finally selects its 5th gen jet just like Boeing X-32 vs LM's X-35.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

Irfan Baloch said:


> how many do you think US has that look like the one above? there is only one that looks like that, the one that melts in the rain I mean
> 
> hehe.. looks like China is going to flood the market with these rip-offs before American product comes out in good numbers.
> 
> 
> sorry joke aside, how the hell China is able to fund so many 5th Gen projects when even the first one is not fully completed and commissioned into Chinese Air force?



Simple, all of them are 5th gen in look only, not in capability. US is still struggling with F35, even after making F22 and here we have china coming up with a 5th gen plane on a daily basis, LOL!

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## karan21

Irfan Baloch said:


> sorry joke aside, how the hell China is able to fund so many 5th Gen projects when even the first one is not fully completed and commissioned into Chinese Air force?


1 billlion of 3 trillion = 0.03%. Too much money with China right now. Btw the plane looks good, but its a rip off of the real product just like everything from ws-15 to helicopters to radars that China produces. Come on guys 2nd strongest country in world. I think China now deserves better than rip offs.

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## Sasquatch

kkacer said:


> 100% real, confirmed.



SAC is working on another one however the insignia is what throws this off.

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## karan21

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Simple, all of them are 5th gen in look only, not in capability. US is still struggling with F35, even after making F22 and here we have china coming up with a 5th gen plane on a daily basis, LOL!



Changing the looks of the plane itself is very complicated task, its not as easy as you say. These planes even fitted with 4.5 avionics and long range bvr and aesa radars will make a deadly machine.

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## Hyperion

Who cares if it's a copy or not. Does it fire 'lolly pop' missiles, are bullets made up of sugar, do the bombs explode with rose petals?

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## shuttler

doesnt look like a J-20. The body is shorter and the design of the front and cockpit are different


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## Paan Singh

Hyperion said:


> Who cares if it's a copy or not. Does it fire 'lolly pop' missiles, are bullets made up of sugar, do the bombs explode with rose petals?



New weapon in the sinochallenger arsenal 

now Megaton J-31

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## Esc8781

Tshering22 said:


> Oh another one?
> 
> Guess there are rival design bureaus competing with each other to get the government contract. It is impressive how Chinese have emulated the US style of getting bureaus (in US, companies) to compete against each other for government contracts.
> 
> Judging by this, I am thinking that it is going to be a J-20 vs J-31 showdown before PLAAF finally selects its 5th gen jet just like Boeing X-32 vs LM's X-35.


 That is exactly what I think rival designs, the Chinese ATF competition. Even the US had to develop one plane at a time. 












This will be exciting.


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## Hyperion

karan21 said:


> Thats true, copy or not a fighter plane is a killer. But still dont you think now China deserves better than similiar looking rip offs.


Dude, you're an engineer, yes? Tell me how many shapes can you give to a missile? 

In due time, they will start implementing design changes as well. What they have now is need of the hour. Besides, I think, there is always "ONE" optimal design solution to a specific engineering problem. Let's say that China had started from zero, in the end this would have been the approximate solution to a stealth aircraft.

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## kkacer

Hu Songshan said:


> SAC is working on another one however the insignia is what throws this off.



very hot discussion in chinese web site now


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## BlueDot_in_Space

karan21 said:


> Changing the looks of the plane itself is very complicated task, its not as easy as you say. These planes even fitted with 4.5 avionics and long range bvr and aesa radars will make a deadly machine.



How do you know this plane is for real?? let it fly first in an international show, then only one can assess its real capability.

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## Sasquatch

kkacer said:


> very hot discussion in chinese web site now



Yes I'm checking it out now on the sites.

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## kkacer

Hu Songshan said:


> Yes I'm checking it out now on the sites.




http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1458547-1-1.html

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## Hyperion

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> How do you know this plane is for real?? let it fly first in an international show, then only one can assess its real capability.


Maybe true, maybe not, however, I would give Chinese the benefit of doubt as they have pulled-off such things before!

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## nForce

Irfan Baloch said:


> how many do you think US has that look like the one above? there is only one that looks like that, the one that melts in the rain I mean
> 
> hehe.. looks like China is going to flood the market with these rip-offs before American product comes out in good numbers.
> 
> 
> sorry joke aside, how the hell China is able to fund so many 5th Gen projects when even the first one is not fully completed and commissioned into Chinese Air force?




What can I say.. China is a big country.With their rapid development,they have truck loads of money.

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## karan21

Hyperion said:


> Dude, you're an engineer, yes? Tell me how many shapes can you give to a missile?



Loll i understand what you mean, but look at planes with similiar aerodynamic configuration. Look at eurofighter, rafale, and gropen all canard based planes but no similarities in looks. But I just realised this is not imp right now, whats imp this will ring alarm bells in New delhi and at DRDO.

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## Donation

OMG,

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## itaskol

I believe it is the real J21. 

tail painting is so weird. maybe it is realy for export.


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## Hyperion

karan21 said:


> Loll i understand what you mean, but look at planes with similiar aerodynamic configuration. Look at eurofighter, rafale, and gropen all canard based planes but no similarities in looks. But I just realised this is not imp right now, whats imp this will ring alarm bells in New delhi and at DRDO.


Dude, I want India, China, Pakistan, heck everyone in Asia to compete the **** out of each other. How better can we all avenge the lost century!

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## BlueDot_in_Space

Hyperion said:


> Maybe true, maybe not, however, I would give Chinese the benefit of doubt as they have pulled-off such things before!


Pulled off what?? J20?? it is still a prototype, can turn out to be a tech demonstrator. Nothing is known of its capability apart from its 5th gen tag, only speculations.

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## Hyperion

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Pulled off what?? J20?? it is still a prototype, can turn out to be a tech demonstrator. Nothing is known of its capability apart from its 5th gen tag, only speculations.



No comments my friend!

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## Abdi-Karim Elmi

Hahaha india waster it's time Buying French Rafeal...Its looks like F-35 and J-20 had a child..


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## Sasquatch

kkacer said:


> ôÕ×Ó»ú³öÏÖ(×ªÌúÑª)-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ -




http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_6286297_1.html

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## shuttler

itaskol said:


> I believe it is the real J21.
> 
> tail painting is so weird. maybe it is realy for export.



Looks like we havent had enough test flight yet! The paint is still wet. So we have to forget about export for the moment! The time will come. No hurry!

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## TaoLi

The Asia is big enough for these country, we need live with each other peacefully. it is good for these countryies people.


Hyperion said:


> Dude, I want India, China, Pakistan, heck everyone in Asia to compete the **** out of each other. How better can we all avenge the lost century!


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## Irfan Baloch

Hyperion said:


> Who cares if it's a copy or not. Does it fire 'lolly pop' missiles, are bullets made up of sugar, do the bombs explode with rose petals?



the real question is

will it be able to fly? a Chinese or Russian engine?

will it have all its components that are immune to sanctions? 
not playing down the effort but the real stuff lies beneath the surface and thats a big question mark.

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## Irfan Baloch

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Simple, all of them are 5th gen in look only,


even that is not entirely true, *look *at the exhaust. its similar to any 4 gen design, same IR signature as the previous generations

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## sweetgrape

Too much shocking for chinese amateur! Waiting for Y-20 platform, New stealth bomber, in the later 8 years before 2020, China will start enjoying the benefit that technology accumulation bring after many years hard working!

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## Hyperion

Irfan Baloch said:


> the real question is
> 
> will it be able to fly? a Chinese or Russian engine?
> 
> will it have all its components that are immune to sanctions?
> not playing down the effort but the real stuff lies beneath the surface and thats a big question mark.



@IB, It will fly. If they've created such a machine and it doesn't fly, then what was the point of creating the shell?

@Avionics/@ECM = 4.5 generation, they already have.
@Radars = AESA modules (cheapest manufacturer in the world, besides you gotta read all the latest research papers coming out of China, on AESA!!!!)
@Engines = No one can come close to the kind of thrust vectoring that F22 has. However, China has certain options that it can build upon. *****Posterior signature and overall stealth will suffer till they can come out with something close to F119/PW, but that is no excuse to not build anything!!!!******
@Metallurgy/@Design/@Production = Trust me there is no great science involved (I speak as this is my forte)
@Armaments = You know very well, where China stands.

Whatever, at-least China is taking the first baby steps!

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> @IB, It will fly. If they've created such a machine and it doesn't fly, then what was the point of creating the shell?
> 
> @Avionics/@ECM = 4.5 generation, they already have.
> @Engines = No one can come close to the kind of thrust vectoring that F22 has. They have close enough options.
> @Metallurgy/@Design/@Production = Trust me there is no great science involved (*I speak as this is my forte*)
> @Armaments = You know very well, where China stands.
> 
> Whatever, at-least China is taking the first baby steps!



Yeah right ! We're talking about metallurgy and not women, my young padawan learner ! 

Aur rorra, why wasn't I invited to the 'Afghans should be made Pakistani citizens' thread ?

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## Water Car Engineer

Keep us posted and find more pictures.

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## Hyperion

Armstrong said:


> Aur rorra, why wasn't I invited to the 'Afghans should be made Pakistani citizens' thread ?



Yara, it was early morning here and all of a sudden I see a guy bashing Pathans, I went ballistic, though I regret bashing him now!

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## itaskol

It is a big shock...


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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> Yara, it was early morning here and all of a sudden I see a guy bashing Pathans, I went ballistic, though I regret bashing him now!



And I saw a guy praising Bacha Khan sahib...! Call me a Pukhtoon basher (though I'm not...how can I be when I'm in love with one) but I've tried but I can't get myself to respect the Frontier Gandhi when I love Jinnah so much. 

P.S I wasn't talking about being in love with you...you faggot !

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## Imran Khan

china you confusing us damn which one we buy now so many choices

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## Zabaniyah

Imran Khan said:


> china you confusing us damn which one we buy now so many choices



It makes shopping more fun!

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## Hyperion

Zabaniya said:


> It makes shopping more fun!


Sometimes confuses the **** out of you! It's like making a choice between two beautiful women

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## Armstrong

Hyperion said:


> You **** **** ******* *******! I know!





Why the heck do you want to hand over Pakistani nationality to Afghans ? I still don't buy you're 'South Afghanistan' is defacto Pakistan and how 'how could they hate us when half of them have families married over here', argument !

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## Hyperion

Yara, the vultures are hovering...... let's not get banned... why not continue in the members section?

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## Esc8781

Zabaniya said:


> It makes shopping more fun!


 And more brain twisting.

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## SQ8

A couple of things are off here, 
First.. the photo says 1:30 am.. thats a fairly bright shot ..even with a very low iso setting.. 

Second.. it seems like the front end of a F-35 in one picture.. then its like that front end doesn't match up to the other pictures.

So Im very sceptical till its confirmed otherwise.. just as the J-20 was with further pictures.

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## sweetgrape

Imran Khan said:


> china you confusing us damn which one we buy now so many choices


I do think J10 is a best choice for PAK at present, about J20 J31, it need at least about 10 years, But what I concern on is the engine! 
And I hope the J10 technology can be transfered to PAK, then PAK can design its own plane, that's be perfect!

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## Hyperion

Oscar said:


> A couple of things are off here,
> First.. the photo says 1:30 am.. thats a fairly bright shot ..even with a very low iso setting..
> 
> Second.. it seems like the front end of a F-35 in one picture.. then its like that front end doesn't match up to the other pictures.
> 
> So Im very sceptical till its confirmed otherwise.. just as the J-20 was with further pictures.


Yeah, me too!

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## kkacer

&#20659;&#35498;&#27784;&#39131;&#22235;&#20195;&#27231;&#20195;&#34399;&#21483;&#8220;&#40379;&#40441;&#8221;, &#23416;&#34899;&#19978;&#31281;&#28216;&#38588;

&#19979;&#38754;&#26159;&#28216;&#38588;, &#20877;&#30475;&#30475; J31 &#27231;&#23614;&#22294;&#26696;

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916032526787.JPG

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## Sasquatch

Oscar said:


> A couple of things are off here,
> First.. the photo says 1:30 am.. thats a fairly bright shot ..even with a very low iso setting..
> 
> Second.. it seems like the front end of a F-35 in one picture.. then its like that front end doesn't match up to the other pictures.
> 
> So Im very sceptical till its confirmed otherwise.. just as the J-20 was with further pictures.



Yes, the Insignia doesn't match in ,the early J-20 photos you could tell but this, I'm completely unsure. However SAC is making a fighter for export.

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## SQ8

Hu Songshan said:


> Yes, the Insignia doesn't match in ,the early J-20 photos you could tell but this, I'm completely unsure. However SAC is making a fighter for export.



Ill tell you why I am convinced more and more that its a PS.
In the first photo.. being grainy.. the fuselage of the aircraft comes out really smooth.. unusual.
Second frontal.. is the EXACT front aspect of the F-35 .. albeit with the tails seemingly extended which do not match the height in the first photo






And I felt a deja vu when I saw the second pic, since i remember seeing a F-35 picture JUST like that.

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## sweetgrape

Oscar said:


> Ill tell you why I am convinced more and more that its a PS.
> In the first photo.. being grainy.. the fuselage of the aircraft comes out really smooth.. unusual.
> Second frontal.. is the EXACT front aspect of the F-35 .. albeit with the tails seemingly extended which do not match the height in the first photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I felt a deja vu when I saw the second pic, since i remember seeing a F-35 picture JUST like that.


HEHE, it is too technology, In fact, I also doubt these, in china many such picture are blurry, maybe will be photoshoped by people, let you guess, So, about china, you can't know it fully!!
Let's wait for more info, whatever, it still shock us, enjoying these. Maybe it is wrong itself, but the SAC 5th stealth plane exist exactly, the problem is time!! the later days, we will have new topic to argue on, that's good thing kill time, hehe!


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Congrats on the new fighter prototype , but how come its not yellow prototype colors chinese planes have is the plane ... being manufactured that its passed prototyping tests ?

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## Esc8781

sweetgrape said:


> HEHE, it is too technology, In fact, I also doubt these, in china many such picture are blurry, maybe will be photoshoped by people, let you guess, So, about china, you can't know it fully!!
> Let's wait for more info, whatever, it still shock us, enjoying these. Maybe it is wrong itself, but the SAC 5th stealth plane exist exactly, the problem is time!! the later days, we will have new topic to argue on, that's good thing kill time, hehe!


 Do you think it is a competition between the j-20 and the j-21?


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## sweetgrape

Esc8781 said:


> Do you think it is a competition between the j-20 and the j-21?


I don't think, Before they were revealed, I think, SAC and CAC have competition for 5th plane, Government have make the choice and decision, it is different from USA, Now, they just do what they need to do!


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## kkacer

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916040135709.JPG
*
&#26159;&#25105;&#30524;&#33457;&#20102;&#21966;&#65311;&#36889;&#19981;&#26159;&#30690;&#37327;&#21966;&#65311; 

&#30475;&#24038;&#33738;&#21644;&#21491;&#33738;&#20043;&#38291;&#30340;&#23565;&#27604;&#65292;&#20197;&#21450;&#21491;&#33738;&#19978;&#26041;&#22369;&#24230;&#21644;&#19979;&#26041;&#22369;&#24230;&#30340;&#23565;&#27604;&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#21491;&#33738;&#21644;&#27231;&#36523;&#37532;&#25509;&#34389;&#26377;&#26126;&#39023;&#38283;&#32299;&#65292;&#26159;&#25105;&#30524;&#33457;&#20102;&#21966;&#65311;*


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## kkacer

&#22825;&#21834;~ &#24038;&#37002;&#21521;&#19978;, &#21491;&#37002;&#30340;&#22132;&#21475;&#26126;&#39023;&#26377;&#21521;&#19979;&#22132;&#30340;&#36264;&#21218;!


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## Esc8781

sweetgrape said:


> I don't think, Before they were revealed, I think, SAC and CAC have competition for 5th plane, Government have make the choice and decision, it is different from USA, Now, they just do what they need to do!


 Developing two stealth fighters at the same time is going to be difficult though wish you all the luck  plus there is one of them is longed range and one of them is on the carriers so both of them can be implemented in the South China sea. So the J-20 was in a ATF competition already nice.


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## sweetgrape

kkacer said:


> http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916040135709.JPG
> *
> &#26159;&#25105;&#30524;&#33457;&#20102;&#21966;&#65311;&#36889;&#19981;&#26159;&#30690;&#37327;&#21966;&#65311;
> 
> &#30475;&#24038;&#33738;&#21644;&#21491;&#33738;&#20043;&#38291;&#30340;&#23565;&#27604;&#65292;&#20197;&#21450;&#21491;&#33738;&#19978;&#26041;&#22369;&#24230;&#21644;&#19979;&#26041;&#22369;&#24230;&#30340;&#23565;&#27604;&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#21491;&#33738;&#21644;&#27231;&#36523;&#37532;&#25509;&#34389;&#26377;&#26126;&#39023;&#38283;&#32299;&#65292;&#26159;&#25105;&#30524;&#33457;&#20102;&#21966;&#65311;*


If it is real vector engine, it is more awesome, the significance is much bigger than the plane itself! does the engineer not mount it well? hehe, it make me don't want to sleep.


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## damiendehorn

OMG the Chinese are at it again with their copy n paste now they have done it to the AMCA (just kidding). HAHA, na man when will people realise that most of the tech they buy is made in China, give them credit and don't be surprised with all the new high tech weapons that is comming out of China now.


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## Esc8781

damiendehorn said:


> OMG the Chinese are at it again with their copy n paste now they have done it to the AMCA (just kidding). HAHA, na man when will people realise that most of the tech they buy is made in China, give them credit and don't be surprised with all the new high tech weapons that is comming out of China now.


 At least copying and pasting is good enough to defend one's country and interests.

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## sweetgrape

damiendehorn said:


> OMG the Chinese are at it again with their copy n paste now they have done it to the AMCA (just kidding). HAHA, na man when will people realise that most of the tech they buy is made in China, give them credit and don't be surprised with all the new high tech weapons that is comming out of China now.


HEHE, we know ourself well, some new plane be revealed, not mean we are superpower, we know, compared with western, especially USA, we still have a long way to go, we still need more than 20 years to catch up USA completely, that's the reality that I believe, not humility. we will not lost ourself because of some new weapon!



Esc8781 said:


> At least copying and pasting is good enough to defend one's country and interests.


It is not word or picture in the memory of computer, not that easy!

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## doublemaster

shuttler said:


> Another thread was posted about the same time: A *J-31?*
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/207797-j-31-chinese-5th-stealth-fighter-out.html#post3411222
> 
> This could be one with RQ-170 technology!



You mean China had access to Iranian captured one an reverse engineered so quickly?


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## wzquyin

lighter Stealth fighter
j-20:Heavy Stealth fighter


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## Pak47

Posted please see this thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/207796-j-31-chinese-5th-stealth-fighter-out.html

Also welcome to the forum.

Thread got merged


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## damiendehorn

People get over it, the Chinese mastered stealth tech decades ago. Soon as the F117 showed its face, they have been researching all aspects of low visibility technology. China has been bringing out research papers on this subject like nobody's business, now with their 3 plus trillion reserves they can build multiple projects simultaneously and mass produce!

And in my opinion this is kosher, the genuine McCoy......gonna be interesting to see what US and other regional players say n how they react.


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## ChineseLuver

i see front dual wheel guys,is this a stealth bomber?


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## kkacer

*ONE MONTH AGO....*


*Military observers dismiss rumors of new stealth fighter development*

2012-8-21

Military observers dismiss rumors of new stealth fighter development - Globaltimes.cn


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## Esc8781

ChineseLuver said:


> i see front dual wheel guys,is this a stealth bomber?


 Stealth ground attack aircraft for the navy. look at the f-35 navy variant and the f-35 air force variant 





F-35 navy 





air force


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## wzquyin

name &#40536;&#40560; (hu yin)
width:11.5
now position :yanliang filght Strength Research Institute( xi'an ,shanxi )


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## Windjammer




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## ChineseLuver



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## scherz

Maybe the J-31 is for export like the US Guys have their F-35.


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## homing28




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## giant panda



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## RazPaK

Looks very promising. Hope Pakistan will recieve a model.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

are we sure that these two pictures are taken from China??? there is no indication, it can be Korean's prototype or someone else

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## siegecrossbow

There is something seriously wrong with this plane. Where is the Pakistanis roundel???

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Congrats on the new fighter prototype , but how come its not yellow prototype colors chinese planes have is the plane ... being manufactured that its passed prototyping tests ?



I guess SAC want to keep the tests secret or with restriction of the gorverment, but CAC J-20 was delibarately the way to welcome US secretary of defense robert gates, now this one is for Leon Panetta.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Irfan Baloch said:


> how many do you think US has that look like the one above? there is only one that looks like that, the one that melts in the rain I mean
> 
> hehe.. looks like China is going to flood the market with these rip-offs before American product comes out in good numbers.
> 
> 
> *sorry joke aside, how the hell China is able to fund so many 5th Gen projects when even the first one is not fully completed and commissioned into Chinese Air force*?



With the trade surplus money from US

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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

kkacer said:


> *ONE MONTH AGO....*
> 
> 
> *Military observers dismiss rumors of new stealth fighter development*
> 
> 2012-8-21
> 
> Military observers dismiss rumors of new stealth fighter development - Globaltimes.cn



These so called "military experts" probably talk theories all day but know little about newest development, or they are paid to keep mouths shut.


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## skyknight

I love you China and our engineers&#65281;of course this beautiful beast too&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;1


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## qwerrty

looks like j-20 without canards


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## Badeekh

RazPaK said:


> Looks very promising. Hope Pakistan will recieve a model.



well.....not sure......but yes, wish this taboo dsnt happen, coz india wud have to be leashed up to the peace permanently otherwise....:p


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## a1b2c145




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## S10

Looks like someone put F-22 and F-35 in a blender.


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## pla

ao333 said:


> What's with the insignia? Is this plane even Chinese?


The aircraft 's name is Sparrow hawk&#12290;
so....


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## cirr

Hu Songshan said:


> The insignia is wrong and looks PS.



It is not&#65292;because &#36825;&#19981;&#26159;&#22269;&#23478;&#31435;&#39033;&#12289;&#20891;&#26041;&#39318;&#32943;&#30340;JJ&#12290;&#20320;&#25026;&#30340;&#12290;

Congratulations to 601/112.


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## cirr

Audio said:


> Looking good! I like it.
> 
> I wonder though how Martian will react, it looks to have a cockpit not from one single piece, a feature he slammed tirelessly for the PAK-FA.



Wait for 31003.&#12290;&#12290;China is not accustomed to wasting tax payers money&#12290;


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## cirr

So the number 21 has probably been reserved for the rumoured big fellow from the same stock&#65292;ie 601.

Hope it shows up in 2013&#65292;but no later than 2014.

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## bhedgehog

The information here gets updated really fast. This thread is only couple of minutes later than the original news on Chinese websites....................


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## TaoLi

It will fly in this month.


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## shuttler

bhedgehog said:


> The information here gets updated really fast. This thread is only couple of minutes later than the original news on Chinese websites....................



amazing data transmission speed and uninterrupted power supply unlike our super duper neighbour!

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## shuttler

TaoLi said:


> It will fly in this month.



First flight trial within the next 2 weeks - unbelievable! Cant wait!

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## TaoLi

HanFeng said He will go to see first filght this month. it must be truth.


shuttler said:


> First flight trial within the next 2 weeks - unbelievable! Cant wait!

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

by the way anyone knows why we jump the number, what happens to designation J-16 to j-19?, J-21 TO J30?..is there a particular reason to jump the number? J20 and J31 for this one.


...and wow 158 guests on this thread with 6 members presently as i'm writting

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## cirr

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> by the way anyone knows why we jump the number, what happens to designation J-16 to j-19?, J-21 TO J30?..is there a particular reason to jump the number? J20 and J31 for this one.
> 
> 
> ...and wow 158 guests on this thread with 6 members presently as i'm writting



don't forget 601 has another larger &#8220;bird&#8221; just round the corner&#12290; It could be that the number &#8220;21&#8221; has been used to designate this &#8220;beauty&#8221; in waiting&#12290;

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## itaskol

I hope the chinese wall climbing party (&#29228;&#22681;&#20826;&#65289; soon make more nice photos.

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## shuttler

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> by the way anyone knows why we jump the number, what happens to designation J-16 to j-19?, J-21 TO J30?..is there a particular reason to jump the number? J20 and J31 for this one.
> 
> 
> ...and wow 158 guests on this thread with 6 members presently as i'm writting



yeah, dont know why americans jump numbers too F14, 15, 16, YF-17, F-18,..22..35! 
I guess the nos like F22, 35 or our J20 show some revolutionary changes in the planes that will catch the eyeballs


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## grey boy 2

Some so-called specifications of this 5 gen fighter(&#31933;&#23376;&#26426;&#30340;&#31933;&#23376;&#39301;&#22270;&#35299; )
















¡°ôÕ×Ó»ú¡±µÄ¡°ôÕ×ÓÏÚ¡±Í¼½â ÀàËÆF-22(2)-¾üÊÂÈÈÍ¼-¾üÊÂÇ°ÑØ¾üÊÂÍø

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

itaskol said:


> I hope the chinese wall climbing party (&#29228;&#22681;&#20826;&#65289; soon make more nice photos.



LOL to -->&#29228;&#22681;&#20826;  just too funny...all depend on how Chinese government, they can verywell use a secret remote location to perform the test then these climbing party will wait in vain.

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## cirr

The colour of the plane reminds me of the &#8220;Dark Sword&#8221; UCAV under development at 601.


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## SHAMK9

I hope PAF orders a few of these

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## Aramsogo

Congrats to the Chinese engineers! Looks great!

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## b0101521

designed for exporting?


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## shiv

Badeekh said:


> well.....not sure......but yes, wish this taboo dsnt happen, coz india wud have to be leashed up to the peace permanently otherwise....:p



please design a car motor first.. then we can talk peace


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## kkacer

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916125556959.JPG

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## 帅的一匹

Irfan Baloch said:


> how many do you think US has that look like the one above? there is only one that looks like that, the one that melts in the rain I mean
> 
> hehe.. looks like China is going to flood the market with these rip-offs before American product comes out in good numbers.
> 
> 
> sorry joke aside, how the hell China is able to fund so many 5th Gen projects when even the first one is not fully completed and commissioned into Chinese Air force?



Because We can't wait any longer, we have to spare every munites tight to prepare war with Japan.


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## 帅的一匹

j-31 is more toward F-35, and Chengdu J-20 is for F22.


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## 帅的一匹

If PAF could get J-31 BEFORE India get T-50, then MMRCA would become a trash deal.


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## 帅的一匹

Hyperion said:


> Who cares if it's a copy or not. Does it fire 'lolly pop' missiles, are bullets made up of sugar, do the bombs explode with rose petals?


Copy means exactly the same, it doesn't make any sense here in J-31 case.

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## 帅的一匹

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> How do you know this plane is for real?? let it fly first in an international show, then only one can assess its real capability.


CCP won't let this secret top platform make public in any form of international air show, except for export purpose.


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## 帅的一匹

TeriShirtDaButton said:


> New weapon in the sinochallenger arsenal
> 
> now Megaton J-31



Instead of Laughing Sinochallenger, you surely feel really sorry for DRDO.

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## 帅的一匹

shiv said:


> please design a car motor first.. then we can talk peace


design a simple cannon first, then you can talk in this forum.

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## 帅的一匹

We have totally different military organization compared with USA. YF-22 and YF-23 is for bid competition, but all the projects in China is financed by Defence Department not the company itself.


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## karan21

wanglaokan said:


> design a simple cannon first, then you can talk in this forum.




Designed, tested and currently under production. 
Further variants are now being worked on. 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...y-guns-meet-parameters-army-orders-100-a.html

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## cirr

Now I am interested to know when people catch the first glimpses of China's &#8220;X-37B&#8221;&#12290;

This month&#65311;

Any member of the &#8220;Wall Climbing Party&#8221; dares to scale the walls of 320 in Hongdu&#65292;China&#65311;


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## karan21

cirr said:


> Now I am interested to know when people catch the first glimpses of China's &#8220;X-37B&#8221;&#12290;
> 
> This month&#65311;
> 
> Any member of the &#8220;Wall Climbing Party&#8221; dares to scale the walls of 320 in Hongdu&#65292;China&#65311;



Wait wasn't x37b an american secret plane?? You mean China is also making a similiar plane??

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## 帅的一匹

Irfan Baloch said:


> the real question is
> 
> will it be able to fly? a Chinese or Russian engine?
> 
> will it have all its components that are immune to sanctions?
> not playing down the effort but the real stuff lies beneath the surface and thats a big question mark.


I surely tell you we have our own engine for 5th stealth. In J-10 case, it might not ready yet.

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## 帅的一匹

Our goverment always keen to throw camouflage.

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## 帅的一匹

karan21 said:


> Designed, tested and currently under production.
> Further variants are now being worked on.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...y-guns-meet-parameters-army-orders-100-a.html


Congratulation you have cannon of you own in 21 centuary, what a achievement!

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## 帅的一匹

karan21 said:


> Wait wasn't x37b an american secret plane?? You mean China is also making a similiar plane??

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## 帅的一匹



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## 帅的一匹

Imran Khan said:


> china you confusing us damn which one we buy now so many choices


Welcome PAF pilots come and try before making final decision. Mostly important, bring your advice for improvement.

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## qwerrty

wanglaokan said:


> Congratulation you have cannon of you own in 21 centuary, what a achievement!



now, make some ammo 



> *India to purchase Russian ammo for $1 billion*
> 29.06.2012
> *ttp://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/29-06-2012/121521-india_russian_ammunition-0/

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## 帅的一匹

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Congrats on the new fighter prototype , but how come its not yellow prototype colors chinese planes have is the plane ... being manufactured that its passed prototyping tests ?



I think PAF painting of JF-17 is cooler than PLAAF, transfer some expatriate to teach our engineer painting skill...

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## S10

wanglaokan said:


> We have totally different military organization compared with USA. YF-22 and YF-23 is for bid competition, but all the projects in China is financed by Defence Department not the company itself.


This one is mostly funded by SAC itself. PLAAF chose J-20 over SAC's design, leaving SAC with only J-15 and J-16 in its development line. They needed a new product that will keep their heads above water, which is where this one comes in. It will compete for export market as well as carrier aviation wing contracts.


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## 帅的一匹

S10 said:


> This one is mostly funded by SAC itself. PLAAF chose J-20 over SAC's design, leaving SAC with only J-15 and J-16 in its development line. They needed a new product that will keep their heads above water, which is where this one comes in. It will compete for export market as well as carrier aviation wing contracts.



HAVE you got any picture of SAC prototype competing with J-20?


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## S10

wanglaokan said:


> HAVE you got any picture of SAC prototype competing with J-20?








I believe it was this one, according to huzhigeng.

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## sweetgrape

wanglaokan said:


> Welcome PAF pilots come and try before making final decision. Mostly important, bring your advice for improvement.





qwerrty said:


> now, make some ammo


Let's keep on J31, don't derail it, then let troller ruin the thread, and you know, Indian also are victim.

On the topic, If the picture is true, I guess they will fly soon, and around the base, there will be many military amateur and spies will gather!!


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## S10

Bobby said:


> Wow F35 = J31
> F22 = J21
> 
> Height of copy paste


You = afterproduct of copied and pasted stupidity.

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## S10

I don't know why people are already calling this plane J-31. "J" designations are reserved for official national programs, such as J-10 and J-20. This plane is SAC's pet project, with very limited funding from the government. I don't think it will receive its "J" designation anytime soon.


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## Oldman1

karan21 said:


> Wait wasn't x37b an american secret plane?? You mean China is also making a similiar plane??



Been known for months.

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## 帅的一匹

Bobby said:


> Wow F35 = J31
> F22 = J21
> 
> Height of copy paste


Nice to see same type of 5TH generation in India section someday in the future. I would appreciate it even it is reverse engineered.


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## 帅的一匹

S10 said:


> I believe it was this one, according to huzhigeng.



More like a CAD design, not a prototype for real.


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## Najam Khan

kkacer said:


> http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916125556959.JPG



Interesting visual analysis. Its not just hardware that needs to be state-of-the-art, Avionics,weapon suite and testing are equally important.

Congratulations to China, there is still a long way to go. But as they say:*"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"*

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## cirr

karan21 said:


> Wait wasn't x37b an american secret plane?? You mean China is also making a similiar plane??



sorry&#65292;I meant the X-47&#12290;

X-37B already made&#12290;


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## Oldman1

Is it a VTOL?

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## Oldman1

cirr said:


> already made&#12290;1st pictures expected this month or any time soon&#12290;



Its already been posted in previous page of this thread.

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## cirr

Oldman1 said:


> Its already been posted in previous page of this thread.



too many models&#12290;got confused&#12290;actually meant China's &#8220;X-47&#8221; the UACV made by 320&#12290;


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## cirr

Oldman1 said:


> Its already been posted in previous page of this thread.



too many models&#12290;got confused&#12290;actually meant China's X-47 the UACV made by 320&#12290;


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## cirr



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## Beast

cirr said:


>



Who is the one who say its PS??? He needs to get his eye check! J-31 is REAL!

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## TaoLi

China has every same level weapon to US, China just does not show it like US. if the situation needs that, China will show them step by step.


karan21 said:


> Wait wasn't x37b an american secret plane?? You mean China is also making a similiar plane??

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## S10

wanglaokan said:


> More like a CAD design, not a prototype for real.



It was eliminated at the final proposal stage, where CAC design was chosen as the winner.

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## S10

Oldman1 said:


> Is it a VTOL?


No, conventional takeoff and landing multirole, aimed for exporter and carrier duty.


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## grey boy 2

cirr said:


>



Thanks bro, great picture


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## OrionHunter

J-31? Another 'J'!!  How many 'J's are you guys gonna produce? J-5 to J-21 so far and now J-31. At the rate with which the Chinese are going, there would probably be J-32 to J-100 before this year is out!! 

I wonder whether there would be any real radical changes in concept and design or just different paint jobs on the same platform??

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## Oldman1

TaoLi said:


> China has every same level weapon to US, China just does not show it like US. if the situation needs that, China will show them step by step.



We don't show it, we use it. Nobody knew about th F117 and B2 for many years. Or the so called Beast of Kandahar or the stealth helo used in Osama's death.

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## Beast

The engine and the fuselage gap is big. Suggest the engine is TVC.. since it needs gap for the nozzle to moves.

Since J-31 has a conventional layout. To achieve better agility. TVC is necessary. I believe it will be domestic WS-13 TVC engines.

I think out Pakistanis friend will be very happy.. J-31 is another tailor for export. This is the reason why JF-17 block 2 is delay and any upgrade seems stop. Becos, if you support J-31. You will soon equip with a 5th operational fighter. PAF will be the top3 airforce in the world. USAF, PLAAF and PAF..

The slow coach Russian and Indian PAF-KA will be heavily delayed, much much slower than J-31.

The time gap of 2015 to 2018 will be the time gap where PAF can easily thrashed IAF with J-31.

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## kkacer

&#30332;&#21205;&#27231;&#20301;&#22823;&#20102;&#19968;&#22280;, 
&#30495;&#26159;&#26377;&#30690;&#37327;! 

&#30332;&#21205;&#27231;&#20301;&#22823;&#20102;&#19968;&#22280;, 
&#30495;&#26159;&#26377;&#30690;&#37327;! 

&#30332;&#21205;&#27231;&#20301;&#22823;&#20102;&#19968;&#22280;, 
&#30495;&#26159;&#26377;&#30690;&#37327;! 

&#30332;&#21205;&#27231;&#20301;&#22823;&#20102;&#19968;&#22280;, 
&#30495;&#26159;&#26377;&#30690;&#37327;! 

&#30332;&#21205;&#27231;&#20301;&#22823;&#20102;&#19968;&#22280;, 
&#30495;&#26159;&#26377;&#30690;&#37327;! 

&#30332;&#21205;&#27231;&#20301;&#22823;&#20102;&#19968;&#22280;, 
&#30495;&#26159;&#26377;&#30690;&#37327;! 

&#30332;&#21205;&#27231;&#20301;&#22823;&#20102;&#19968;&#22280;, 
&#30495;&#26159;&#26377;&#30690;&#37327;!


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## Oldman1

Could be used for their carrier in the future.

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## cybertron

U Beauty!!


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## 帅的一匹

This bird looks amazing!


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## karan21

One thing I like about China the most is that if it says something, it phucking delivers it on time and shocks the world. In India though small things take decades to fix and make them happen. 1 failure puts India 5 years behind, while China bounces back after a failure like a rockstar. Man I have to say, this nation can do the impossible. It can become the world's strongest nation ever.

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## Beast

karan21 said:


> No it didn't take India so long to make a freaking cannon lol. The process only started in 2009 and 2012 it was under testing and approved by govt. I believe it will hit mass production soon.
> 
> About making planes and sending man to space, we are working on that. The GSLV MK3 has a maximum potential of 20 tonnes to leo orbit. It is right now on the launch pad getting ready for launch in a few months as we speak, if it goes up nicely, manned mission will be approved by govt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About GPS, Indian IRNSS-1 satellite, which is first of many Indian sats is ready. Even IRNSS-2 and 3 is ready and is scheduled to be launched in March 2013 or earlier.
> 
> IRNSS-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



We already completed everything and you are still talking and doing trial test. That's a hell lot different. 

Europe space agency already looking forward for manned space mission with China space agency. Becos they can't depend on Russians. USA is out at the moment. Our manned technology is matured and proven.

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## SEAL

Whew! China done it once again congratulations to all Chinese members and SAC or whoever designed it. 
Indans members needs to show some respect its their 2nd 5th Gen fighter and see where you guys are standing in aviation industry.

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## grey boy 2

Guys, lets enjoy this historical moment with our friends here, ignore those butt hurt trolls.

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## karan21

Beast said:


> We already completed everything and you are still talking and doing trial test. That's a hell lot different.
> 
> Europe space agency already looking forward for manned space mission with China space agency. Becos they can't depend on Russians. USA is out at the moment. Our manned technology is matured and proven.




Well thats the thing, it doesn't matter who did it first since this is not a race, India might achieve what China achieved 10 yrs later. Usa did moon landing in 1969, so that doesn't mean the china or esa or isro won't do it in 20xx. It's about vision, thankfully both India and China have a vision to develop and compete with west and leave them behind on day. 

For example, China got it's GPS in early 2000s, India is now ready to deploy one of its own within 1 year. Development is an ongoing process and Chinese economy is bigger. China became 2 trillion in 2004, While India this year will complete 2 trillion, so we are 8 years behind economically. As long as India keeps moving forward I an happy.

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## kkacer

&#30475;&#37027;&#20123;&#33738;&#33457;&#25033;&#26159;&#30495;&#21697;, &#21407;&#22240;&#21487;&#33021;&#25850;&#21205;&#24133;&#24230;&#26356;&#22823;. &#29978;&#33267;&#26377;&#22402;&#30452;&#21151;&#33021;. 

F35 &#30340;&#32299; 

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916151649818.JPG

J31 &#24341;&#25806;&#27604;&#27491;&#24120;&#31361;&#20986;&#36889;&#40636;&#38263;, &#32299;&#22823;. &#30495;&#26377;&#21487;&#33021;&#26377;&#22402;&#30452;&#21151;&#33021;. &#25110;&#30041;&#20316;&#20197;&#24460;&#22402;&#30452;&#25913;&#33391;&#31354;&#38291;

&#36229;&#22823;&#35498;31&#26159;&#28023;&#33322;&#32232;&#34399; &#27492;&#39131;&#27231;&#25033;&#28858;&#28023;&#36557;&#23560;&#29992;


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## S10

Bobby said:


> reverse engineered....Only a Chinese can appreciate....


Even reverse engineering takes a high degree of expertise in industrial capacity, technical expertise and scientific research, thus you have failed to reverse engineer that mini-Mirage 2000 you call LCA to this day. Meanwhile, we were able to go from assembling Su-27SK with Russian kits to manufacturing our own in less than 5 years.

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## karan21

Beast said:


> I bet this product will never come out while our PAF friend will dominate Indian sky in 2015 bombing anywhere they like in India with J-31. Hahaha...



I bet this product will fly and become a successful plane. Wanna bet??


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## Beast

karan21 said:


> Well thats the thing, it doesn't matter who did it first since this is not a race, India might achieve what China achieved 10 yrs later. Usa did moon landing in 1969, so that doesn't mean the china or esa or isro won't do it in 20xx. It's about vision, thankfully both India and China have a vision to develop and compete with west and leave them behind on day.
> 
> For example, China got it's GPS in early 2000s, India is now ready to deploy one of its own within 1 year. Development is an ongoing process and Chinese economy is bigger. China became 2 trillion in 2004, While India this year will complete 2 trillion, so we are 8 years behind economically. As long as India keeps moving forward I an happy.


 Please don't mix China and India together.. Everybody knows when China set a deadline and go ahead. We will 99% of the time complete it. But INdian can talk and talk, bulls abt unreaslistic deadline and goal. Whether anot, it will materialise will be another thing. Yah, Manned mission for India. Probably year 2050,ok?

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## karan21

Bobby said:


> reverse engineered....Only a Chinese can appreciate....



India also reverse engineers everything it can. Where did you get your cryogenic engines from??? 

Btw China didn't get F35 from ISreal or someone, its their product.

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## Beast

karan21 said:


> I bet this product will fly and become a successful plane. Wanna bet??



Sure,, we will sold to everybody except Indian.


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## karan21

Beast said:


> Please don't mix China and India together.. Everybody knows when China set a deadline and go ahead. We will 99% of the time complete it. But INdian can talk and talk, bulls abt unreaslistic deadline and goal. Whether anot, it will materialise will be another thing. Yah, Manned mission for India. Probably year 2050,ok?



Alright Hail superior China. Anything else.

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## S10

karan21 said:


> I bet this product will fly and become a successful plane. Wanna bet??


I'm sure the plane will successfully be inducted into Indian service in 2050.

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## S10

Ok, enough derailment.

A comparison between J-20 and the new plane from a rear angle:

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## Beast

S10 said:


> Ok, enough derailment.
> 
> A comparison between J-20 and the new plane from a rear angle:



WOW,, this plane looks much much smaller. J-20 makes this J-31 like a kid.

Time for Shenyang aviation corp to win back its pride.

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## peaceful

karan21 said:


> No it didn't take India so long to make a freaking cannon lol. The process only started in 2009 and 2012 it was under testing and approved by govt. I believe it will hit mass production soon.



good to see india is mastering this 1950s tech. 



karan21 said:


> About making planes and sending man to space, we are working on that. The GSLV MK3 has a maximum potential of 20 tonnes to leo orbit. It is right now on the launch pad getting ready for launch in a few months as we speak, if it goes up nicely, manned mission will be approved by govt.



No troll please. How many launches GLSV had? How many failed? *Again, no troll, tell me the failure rate. [/QUOTE] 5 out of 7 launches failed! This project should have already been cancelled. 

The funny thing here is the regime of new delhi is kicking this dead horse and trying to get something more to fool its population. 

Now for the real capacity of this GLSV MK 3 joke: 4tons GTO. 

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/552621main_Indian_Space_Research_Organization_Somanath.pdf

This is about 30% of our Long March 5, 60% of our Long March 3 which we designed 30 years ago. 

Oh, yes, we honest Chinese don't try to cover up our failures, we are different from indian liars - Long March 3 failed in its maiden flight, crashed into a nearby village and killed multiple people on ground. Since then, 19 launches have been successfully conducted. 




karan21 said:



About GPS, Indian IRNSS-1 satellite, which is first of many Indian sats is ready. Even IRNSS-2 and 3 is ready and is scheduled to be launched in March 2013 or earlier.

IRNSS-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click to expand...


again joke! 

show me a working system including the terminal devices. please aware, it is Global Positioning System, it must be globally usable.*

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## Oldman1

Still surprise they used a bird on there instead of a red star.


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## peaceful

Oldman1 said:


> Still surprise they used a bird on there instead of a red star.



Yes, my understanding is this project is not formally backed by the government/army, it is a corporate funded project to keep competition within SAC.

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## peaceful

*guys, this is a thread about F-60 31001 prototype. it has nothing to do with a backward unindustralized big mouth nation currently building LCA. let's all ignore those indian trolls. *

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## Beast

Oldman1 said:


> Still surprise they used a bird on there instead of a red star.



Red star is reserved for product endorse by PLAAF. Shenyang is powerful and rich. This project is entirely funded by themselves. Therefore, if they want to put a mickey mouse there ,is their problem.. This plane will target export customer but not necessary PLAN or PLAAF will not buy it if the performance turns out to be good.

But end of the day, J-20 and J-31 dual it out in the sky, J-31 will be downed in mins by J-20.. But doesn't mean its a bad plane. It will proabably easily take out Su-35, F-16 Blk 52 and Euro fighter non stealthy plane.

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## MightyDragon

I don't think it is called J-31. There is no "Eight One" sign on the plane, so it is not enlisted in the formal series. Besides, three digits reserved for prototype planes are too much, so I would rather consider it as the "plan 310" number one prototype...

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## kkacer

&#22283;&#20839;&#28040;&#24687;&#26377;&#30690;&#21521;&#37327;&#25033;&#37679;&#19981;&#20102; 

J31 &#26368;&#24460;&#25033;&#26159;&#35037;&#36889;&#26032;&#27454;&#30690;&#21521;&#37327;&#22132;&#22068;, 9500 KG 

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916154822959.JPG

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916154831818.JPG

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## SQ8

This is interesting.. 
If that is the actual aircraft.. and the Chinese have decided to take their stolen F-35 data and literally create an adapted clone.. its an achievement in itself.
Because it signifies two very important things.. 
First.. that the chinese air industry is growing by leaps and bounds through whatever pathway it has chosen.. reverse engineering or not.. its allowing it to keep abreast of the worlds best in terms of aerodynamic design.

Second.. That contrary to claims by Lockheed.. there was a lot taken away from the F-35 program that is not being disclosed.
At least enough to provide exacting blueprints for the frontal section of this aircraft whose rear resembles the F-22.

So if this is called the J-31.. then the J-31 is the mashup of the F-22 and F-35.. 
Thats not just a copy paste.. thats the best of both worlds.

And since this is a private venture, it means.. that Chinas allies have something to smile about.

There is still a lot of work to be done in the engine bays it seems.. fairly crude.

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## sweetgrape

hope the thread not be ruined like other thread, that's so bad. Hope all can keep on the topic!!
From yesterday, the blurry picture to clear one, this time seems, the climber are more efficient, maybe the Wall of SAC is lower, hehe!


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## trendmaker1

Oscar said:


> This is interesting..
> If that is the actual aircraft.. and the Chinese have decided to take their stolen F-35 data and literally create an adapted clone.. its an achievement in itself.
> Because it signifies two very important things..
> First.. that the chinese air industry is growing by leaps and bounds through whatever pathway it has chosen.. reverse engineering or not.. its allowing it to keep abreast of the worlds best in terms of aerodynamic design.
> 
> Second.. That contrary to claims by Lockheed.. there was a lot taken away from the F-35 program that is not being disclosed.
> At least enough to provide exacting blueprints for the frontal section of this aircraft whose rear resembles the F-22.
> 
> *So if this is called the J-31.. then the J-31 is the mashup of the F-22 and F-35..
> Thats not just a copy paste.. thats the best of both worlds.*
> 
> And since this is a private venture, it means.. that Chinas allies have something to smile about.
> 
> There is still a lot of work to be done in the engine bays it seems.. fairly crude.



it's j20 with modifications...
it's not a new one as china doesn't need another one..!!!
They should concentrate on j 20 to make it better...


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## Oldman1

Oscar said:


> This is interesting..
> If that is the actual aircraft.. and the Chinese have decided to take their stolen F-35 data and literally create an adapted clone.. its an achievement in itself.
> Because it signifies two very important things..
> First.. that the chinese air industry is growing by leaps and bounds through whatever pathway it has chosen.. reverse engineering or not.. its allowing it to keep abreast of the worlds best in terms of aerodynamic design.
> 
> Second.. That contrary to claims by Lockheed.. there was a lot taken away from the F-35 program that is not being disclosed.
> At least enough to provide exacting blueprints for the frontal section of this aircraft whose rear resembles the F-22.
> 
> So if this is called the J-31.. then the J-31 is the mashup of the F-22 and F-35..
> Thats not just a copy paste.. thats the best of both worlds.
> 
> And since this is a private venture, it means.. that Chinas allies have something to smile about.
> 
> There is still a lot of work to be done in the engine bays it seems.. fairly crude.



Didn't get the F22 rear design cause the J20 doesn't have this.


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## peaceful

trendmaker1 said:


> it's j20 with modifications...
> it's not a new one as china doesn't need another one..!!!
> They should concentrate on j 20 to make it better...



it is a new one designed by a completely different company.


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## sweetgrape

trendmaker1 said:


> it's j20 with modifications...
> it's not a new one as china doesn't need another one..!!!
> They should concentrate on j 20 to make it better...


So, what about F35 and F-22, F35 are F22 with modifications? USA have F22, why they need F35?
Why can't develop both parallel? SAC and CAC can help each other, learn the advantage from each one!

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## Beast

kkacer said:


> &#22283;&#20839;&#28040;&#24687;&#26377;&#30690;&#21521;&#37327;&#25033;&#37679;&#19981;&#20102;
> 
> J31 &#26368;&#24460;&#25033;&#26159;&#35037;&#36889;&#26032;&#27454;&#30690;&#21521;&#37327;&#22132;&#22068;, 9500 KG
> 
> http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916154822959.JPG
> 
> http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916154831818.JPG



Too bad aeronautic engine supply is control under Shenyang Liming. Shenyang aviation corps can basically access any domestic engine they want. While Chengdu aviation corps has to eat the dirt and only very high level people in CCP intervene then they can get a little supply of domestic engine.

The fact, J-10B delay with domestic WS-10A engine supply by Shenyang Liming and our new comer J-31 gets a brand new shiny 9500kg domestic TVC engine just for prototype easily tells you the sad tale of rivalry fight within China aviation industries...

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## TaoLi

This is different China with US, China does not like be a police in the whole world, China does not use their highest level weapon. If some countries menace China, They will the highest weapon US does not have like DF-31.


Oldman1 said:


> We don't show it, we use it. Nobody knew about th F117 and B2 for many years. Or the so called Beast of Kandahar or the stealth helo used in Osama's death.


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## sweetgrape

Oldman1 said:


> Didn't get the F22 rear design cause the J20 doesn't have this.


Have to agree with you, our engine can't match for yours. In engine, we still have about more than 15 years gap behind you!!
beside these, the production level of china also can't match for you, we all know it, these is comprehensive competition, behind the plane production, we need too much improvement on basic and equipment industry, and management, that's also need many energy, time and money to do!! 
Whatever, gap exist, improvement is also big and stable!!


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## Oldman1

TaoLi said:


> This is different China with US, China does not like be a police in the whole world, China does not use their highest level weapon. If some countries menace China, They will the highest weapon US does not have like DF-31.



We already thought of such a weapon and refuse to build it for a good reason.


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## Oldman1

sweetgrape said:


> Have to agree with you, our engine can't match for yours. In engine, we still have about more than 15 years gap behind you!!
> beside these, the production level of china also can't match for you, we all know it, these is comprehensive competition, behind the plane production, we need too much improvement on basic and equipment industry, and management, that's also need many energy, time and money to do!!
> Whatever, gap exist, improvement is also big and stable!!



Competition is good hence why Lockheed Martin and Boeing be fighting each other for such a project.

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## farhan_9909

paf for the sake of GOD
leave the j10b

rather wait for a few more years and take this baby

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## SamranAli

after J-20, J-21 now J-31. Impressive. Is there F-60 too?


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## Windjammer

trendmaker1 said:


> it's j20 with modifications...
> it's not a new one as china doesn't need another one..!!!
> They should concentrate on j 20 to make it better...



Nope, it's a different aircraft altogether, twin nose wheel landing gear, no front canards, no strakes below the engines, cockpit looks different and the aircraft overall appears shorter in length .... all in all, it looks to be a winner. !!

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## Beast

SamranAli said:


> after J-20, J-21 now J-31. Impressive. Is there F-60 too?



F-60 is probably the export designation.


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## 帅的一匹

farhan_9909 said:


> paf for the sake of GOD
> leave the j10b
> 
> rather wait for a few more years and take this baby


PAF should assimiliate the tech of J-10 first to pave future path. J-31 has long way to go......i duno when it will be inducted in PLAAF either.

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## 帅的一匹

Will J-31 has same cockpit configuration as J-20?
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/tu/02/11119684/20120914/17431171_3.html


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## qwerrty

i like the j-20 more. the jet looks more unique than all the others f-22ish looking 5th gen fighters.


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## Oldman1

qwerrty said:


> i like the j-20 more. the jet looks more unique than all the others f-22ish looking 5th gen fighters.



Umm it pretty much look like F22ish.


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## grey boy 2

Some more comparison between J-31 and J-20 in different angles

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## TaoLi

Chinese know lots weapons behind US many years. But Chinese know which weapon is most important.And China put more money on the most important project. Like DF-31, China has DF-31. US's carrier can not enter into 1000KM near china in the wartime. The is Chinese style. Mao chairman said that you fight your war, I fight my war. Chinese know how to attack the enemy's weaknesses with their strengths.Chinese like hide power and give enemy deadly attack at critical moment.


Oldman1 said:


> We already thought of such a weapon and refuse to build it for a good reason.

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## Oldman1

TaoLi said:


> Chinese know lots weapons behind US many years. But Chinese know which weapon is most important.And China put more money on the most important project. Like DF-31, China has DF-31. US's carrier can not enter into 1000KM near china in the wartime. The is Chinese style. Mao chairman said that you fight your war, I fight my war. Chinese know how to attack the enemy's weaknesses with their strengths.Chinese like hide power and give enemy deadly attack at critical moment.



We have other ways besides carriers you know. But if you want to launch something that is pretty much a ballistic missile be my guest.


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## qwerrty

Oldman1 said:


> Umm it pretty much look like F22ish.



less f-22ish compare to korean KFX, F-35, PAKFA, J21/31, AMCA, jap ATDX


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## Hyperion

Oldman1 said:


> Wanglaokan wants him badly.



He reminds me of my Fluid Mechanics teacher.. 

Those horrible midterms.... makeup exams.... projects.... finals...... YAKKK....


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## Oldman1

Hyperion said:


> He reminds me of my Fluid Mechanics teacher..
> 
> Those horrible midterms.... makeup exams.... projects.... finals...... YAKKK....



Try being lectured for 4 hours of Crusades by a British professor.

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## Windjammer

Man, that line up already looks very impressive, with the new kid on the block, Pakistan is really spoilt for choice now.

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## TaoLi

Sorry to Donation, This thread is talking about J-31.


Oldman1 said:


> We have other ways besides carriers you know. But if you want to launch something that is pretty much a ballistic missile be my guest.


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## Beast

Windjammer said:


> Man, that line up already looks very impressive, with the new kid on the block, Pakistan is really spoilt for choice now.



Anything besides J-11 flanker series fighter or J-20.

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## dsxxxx

China's J-21 (F-60) New Stealth Fighter Test Flight

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## kkacer

J20

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916172917709.JPG

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## Oldman1

Beast said:


> Anything besides J-11 flanker series fighter or J-20.



Those aren't flankers.


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## Windjammer

Beast said:


> Anything besides J-11 flanker series fighter or J-20.



I'll settle for J-31 right now. 

Besides those are J-10s.


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## Windjammer

kkacer said:


> J20
> 
> http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916172917709.JPG



In case you guys didn't notice, the J-31 has two piece while the J-20 has a single piece cockpit canopy.

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## SQ8

Oldman1 said:


> Didn't get the F22 rear design cause the J20 doesn't have this.



Leave the engines.. I was referring to the tail empennage and the rear fuselage layout.
It is more similar to the F-22 than the F-35.


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## Donation

SamranAli said:


> after J-20, J-21 now J-31. Impressive. Is there F-60 too?



J-21/J-31/F-60, all are refering a shenyang light fifth gen fighter which has been disclose in this thread, J-21 is a false serial number.


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## skyknight

Windjammer said:


> In case you guys didn't notice, the J-31 has two piece while the J-20 has a single piece cockpit canopy.



J-31/J-21 will change to single too ,maybe fromthe 3-rd prototype


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## Donation

skyknight said:


> J-31/J-21 will change to single too ,maybe fromthe 3-rd prototype


no, it wont change, its a downgrade stealth fighter for export, they meant to increase the frontal rcs with that two pieces canopy, i think Pakistan should really think again before she do her stealth fighter procurement, J-31/F-60 obviously is not the best one around especially consider its pair of rd-33, the development of its standard Equipment ws-13 is far from guarantee.

no PLA front line Equipment are available for export, thus J-20 is not available for Pakistan, the only stealth fighter that China can offer is this one, J-31,

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## yesboss

I was really expecting an exportable version of stealth generation fighter from china , smaller as compared to J20 & equiped with ws-13 engines. Does this new aircraft has ws-13 or what size of an engine . This would be really great for pakistan , the speed at which china is working on stealth fighter jets or even other military hardwares is unbelievable and enjoyable at same time .  If this new baby is for real ...... then does it mean that pakistan would skip over with J-10's ?


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## Beast

Donation said:


> no, it wont change, its a downgrade stealth fighter for export, they meant to increase the frontal rcs with that two pieces canopy, i think Pakistan should really think again before she do her stealth fighter procurement, J-31/F-60 obviously is not the best one around especially consider its pair of rd-33, the development of its standard Equipment ws-13 is far from guarantee.
> 
> no PLA front line Equipment are available for export, thus J-20 is not available for Pakistan, the only stealth fighter that China can offer is this one, J-31,


 J-31 is obviously the best choice PAF can go for. Yes, it's a downgrade of J-20 but it's stealthy body is far better than any 4/4.5th fighter available. Without external payload, it reduces drag and clean streamline profile reduces RCS. It's very similar to F-22 but far cleaner look than PAKFA and F-35. As for engine, I don't think it's a problem. Obviously , they has already take into the engine option before decide go ahead with the project. WS-13 is a far less ambition project than WS-15. It will be less problematic than J-10 since the engine supplier company is under shenyang umbrella.


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## wensi




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## Jango

This is going to get awfully interesting.

Looks very familiar to J-20. Some major differences I can see are:

No canards.
Nose landing gear.
And a bit on the rear end.

What is that insignia on the tail? Some squadron or centre?

BTW, anybody remember that airframe that was being transported on a truck some time back?


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## TopCat

Is it the export version?


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## turbo charged

.............edit


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## tarrar

Looks so cool & it looks like a mixture of F-22 & F-35.







First clear images of the much rumored Chinese F-60/J-21/J31 Fifth Generation Stealth Fighter Jet








F-60/J-21/31 Fifth Generation Stealth Fighter Jet will be employed as a low cost solution compared to the J-20 by the PLAAF. F-60/J-21/J31 Fifth Generation Stealth Fighter Jet may also be offered for export to the Pakistan in future which serves as major testing ground for the new generation Chinese weapons.

http://http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2012/09/chinese-f-60j-21-fifth-generation.html


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## Manticore

comparison

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## S.Y.A

the question I want to ask everyone saying that PAF will get J31 from China is that will the PAF have enough money to buy it?


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## itaskol

S.Y.A said:


> the question I want to ask everyone saying that PAF will get J31 from China is that will the PAF have enough money to buy it?



I think no one can answer you this question. but we all know that pakistan is our best friend.

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## HellzHere

Doesn't really look anything new,looks like putting out new designs of the same thing.
*Btw,i haven't come across any news article that is reporting a J-31 unveiling or sighting..why the hype?*


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## mylovepakistan

chinese are astonishing the world....

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## Beast

HellzHere said:


> Doesn't really look anything new,looks like putting out new designs of the same thing.
> *Btw,i haven't come across any news article that is reporting a J-31 unveiling or sighting..why the hype?*



Arent u it now? Denial will not stop the truth from happening.

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## siegecrossbow

Looks like RD-93 engines without the heat protection installed. Looks like they will go for WS-13 in the future. The whole setup screams export to Pakistan.


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## Korean

Oscar said:


> its allowing it to keep abreast of the worlds best in terms of aerodynamic design.


F-35 is a compromised design in terms of aerodynamics and stealth. The SVTOL requirement and 2 2000 lbs JDAMs forced too many compromises on it.

The Chinese should have studied the F-35 data that they have stolen and improve upon it, not replicate exactly, because it is going to be sluggish in air just like the F-35.


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## Korean

S.Y.A said:


> the question I want to ask everyone saying that PAF will get J31 from China is that will the PAF have enough money to buy it?


American may pay Pakistan enough money for 10 units and then study it.


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## HellzHere

Beast said:


> Arent u it now? Denial will not stop the truth from happening.


You kiddin me?If it is really something credible,then why isn't it coming out anywhere?
Weird colors,insignia.
Looks more like a photoshop work,no one is even talking bout it except here and some Chinese forums.
Let there be an official word or confirmation or a hint of it,before everyone starts speculating and jumping?


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## IND151

The recent rumor of China building a second version stealth fighter after J20 &#8211; Plans of a new smaller stealth fighter jet with carrier capacity was prevsioulsy revealed during a chinese military convention. However, now been confirmed by video evidence of heavly guarded military convoy transporting an airframe which matches the previously revealed F60 a.k.a. J21 dedicated stealth carrier fighter.

Chinese in just 18 months were able to put together their second Stealth Fighter after J-20 made it first flight in last Jan , but what was funny was that many western Chinese military observers had dismissed recent speculation over the development of China&#8217;s second stealth fighter J-21, after military fans posted pictures of a mysterious airframe covered by camouflage online.



Japan&#8217;s The Diplomat magazine earlier had commented that it is not impossible for China to develop another stealth aircraft while struggling with the J-20 developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation, especially if the aircraft are to play different roles.

* J-20 compared with J-21/31 Head on 
*





















Like a familiar story current pictures are of low grainy quality , which seems like a on purpose leak and has the date for first flight comes closer we are expecting high res images to flood the internet , J-20 surprised many western military observers but another stealth fighter in less then two years might be a shocking reality for many and India will have to speed up lot of its own Fighter aircraft project , all those projects from basic jet trainers to 4th gen ( LCA )and 5th gen fighter (AMCA and PAK-FA) will have to be speed-ed up to meet this new threat which is emerging now

Observations of the aircraft :

it looks very much like a mini F-22, and similar to all the proposals of medium weight 5th gen fighters like ATD-X, KFX, AMCA, TFX etc.

Emblem is probably  &#8217;snowy owl&#8217;. Nick name given to it

Its been also called has J-31

New Chinese Stealth Carrier Fighter F60 a.k.a. J21 Spotted!! | idrw.org


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## Sasquatch

cirr said:


>



I was a skeptic at first but indeed the real thing.

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## HellzHere

Hu Songshan said:


> I was a skeptic at first but indeed the real thing.


But what it is exactly?


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## Sasquatch

HellzHere said:


> But what it is exactly?



J-21 ? This will very likely be for export since the J-20 is for the PLAAF only now.


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## notsuperstitious

Looks real enough. Congrats China.

It seems to make sense that its an export development.


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## 帅的一匹

USA defence minister Panetta will visit china tomorrow, we unveiled new bird today as a gift for his Welcome.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Bobby said:


> Hope you have enough money.....



There is so many forms of finance arrangement, doesn't have to be settle with money, as example if China oil or product transit to Pakistan, the collected fee can finance the fighter acquisitions...now with infrastructure that China and Pakistan are working on the border, this will accelerate the economy exchange...

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

HellzHere said:


> But what it is exactly?



For Pakistan to be the bane of Indian MRCA.


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## Sasquatch

Exported to Pakistan, what other countries could be potential customers ? Egypt ,Venezuela ?


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## UKBengali

This is exactly the type of fighter that may be offered to countries like BD for purchase in the next decade.

While it may not be up to the level of the F-22, it will wipe-out the likes of Su-30, Eurofighter and Rafales from of the skies.

It is a deliberate Chinese policy to make 3rd world countries less dependent on the West and Russia for advanced military equipment.

The Chinese are so damn clever!!!

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## Beast

HellzHere said:


> You kiddin me?If it is really something credible,then why isn't it coming out anywhere?
> Weird colors,insignia.
> Looks more like a photoshop work,no one is even talking bout it except here and some Chinese forums.
> Let there be an official word or confirmation or a hint of it,before everyone starts speculating and jumping?


 Bro, this plane is just unveil today and u wanted to report it now? Seems like u are desperate to derail it as false?


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Korean said:


> F-35 is a compromised design in terms of aerodynamics and stealth. The SVTOL requirement and 2 2000 lbs JDAMs forced too many compromises on it.
> 
> The Chinese should have studied the F-35 data that they have stolen and improve upon it, not replicate exactly, because it is going to be sluggish in air just like the F-35.



I don't know how true you said that China has stolen F-35 data, just speculatif assumption as the case of W-88 nuke warhead 
I'm wondering why Americans still keep hiring Chinese top scientists and engineers, they should have sent these people back to China...keep only low qualified chinese labors...this way America will be always safe....don't you think?


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## xuxu1457

Shenyang lost the 4th Heavy Fighter competitive bidding to Chengdu&#65292; Defense department choose Chengdus's J-20;
but Shenyang turn to try at Medium-sized stealth fighter with their own money

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Hu Songshan said:


> Exported to Pakistan, what other countries could be potential customers ? Egypt ,Venezuela ?



Iran should be a potential...of course that depend on Iran too if they need it


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## IND151

J 21 looks very good


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

xuxu1457 said:


> Shenyang lost the 4th Heavy Fighter competitive bidding to Chengdu&#65292; Defense department choose Chengdus's J-20;
> but Shenyang turn to try at Medium-sized stealth fighter with their own money



I'm wondering if Pakistan has secretly financed this jet as similar venture of JF-17, then for sure Pakistan will have something good enough to deal with India's Rafale.


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## Sasquatch

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Iran should be a potential...of course that depend on Iran too if they need it



Iran is under an arms embargo, their S-300 deal was cancelled.

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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I don't know how true you said that China has stolen F-35 data, just speculatif assumption as the case of W-88 nuke warhead
> I'm wondering why Americans still keep hiring Chinese top scientists and engineers, they should have sent these people back to China...keep only low qualified chinese labors...this way America will be always safe....don't you think?



He is just frustrated his korea can only produced crap T-50 trainer..

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Hu Songshan said:


> Iran is under an arms embargo, their S-300 deal was cancelled.



That's pretty unfair, similar to China ...we're under western arm embargo for long time but China should try to find a loophole to sneak few squadrons of this bird to Iran

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## Broccoli

Can someone here translate this?


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## UKBengali

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> That's pretty unfair, similar to China ...we're under western arm embargo for long time but China should try to find a loophole to sneak few squadrons of this bird to Iran



Who knows whether China will care what the US/West thinks about it selling weapons to Iran in 8-10 years time.

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## mosu

Donation said:


>



cool bro plz carry on .............

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## Emmie

Congratulations China, yet another achievement.

Keep up the good work.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beast said:


> He is just frustrated his korea can only produced crap T-50 trainer..



don't underestimate Korea, Samsun and Hyndai are world brand names compagnies, Korea as well Japan are been under American's scrutiny...they don't have chinese's freedom of design.


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## xuxu1457

Broccoli said:


> Can someone here translate this?



&#40536;&#40560;---Falcon eagle


----------



## Aramsogo

HellzHere said:


> You kiddin me?If it is really something credible,then why isn't it coming out anywhere?
> Weird colors,insignia.
> Looks more like a photoshop work,no one is even talking bout it except here and some Chinese forums.
> Let there be an official word or confirmation or a hint of it,before everyone starts speculating and jumping?



Dude, that pic would be the best photoshop ever. The guy who made it has a guaranteed job at Industrial Light and Magic.

I've said this before, China designs and build new planes faster than Indians can buy and import.

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## Sasquatch

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> That's pretty unfair, similar to China ...we're under western arm embargo for long time but China should try to find a loophole to sneak few squadrons of this bird to Iran




Venezuela would also be a potential customer Chavez wants the SU35 but he has been buying from China as well.

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## siegecrossbow

I guess the real question now is whether the SAC will be able to keep the costs for this bird low enough for export to the aforementioned countries.

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## mosu

looks beautiful chines military growing day by day .........


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## Broccoli

xuxu1457 said:


> &#40536;&#40560;---Falcon eagle



Thanks, you know what is says in those small letters in eagles claws?


----------



## itaskol

Broccoli said:


> Can someone here translate this?



Gyrfalcon

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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> don't underestimate Korea, Samsun nad Hyndai are world brand names compagnies, Korea as well Japan are been under American's scrutiny...they don't have chinese freedom of design.



You shall tell that to him not to underetimate the chinese that we can innovate too. His stereotype of chinese can only copy F-35 and F-22 more or less sure his inferior mentality. If we can so easily stole F-35 data. We need not fear a war with US.

As for samsung, there re greatest strong point is cost cutting. Nothing to talk of innovation. It is their undercutting cost that drives japanese out of business. Their S3 handphone is so similiar to Iphone4. It just got a bigger screen and a better camera. Thats all. I owe an iphone 4 and my wife has a S3. So i know what i am talking abt. The fact apple are suing Samsung for copying their Handphone more or less tells you who stole who's tech.

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## Broccoli

itaskol said:


> Gyrfalcon



Ok, thanks.


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

wow beautiful fighter .........

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## canadian icehole

Hu Songshan said:


> Exported to Pakistan, what other countries could be potential customers ? Egypt ,Venezuela ?



I'm sure Argentina wouldn't mind having some.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

canadian icehole said:


> I'm sure Argentina wouldn't mind having some.



England will get pissed...for sure. Now England and Chinese are on calmed water for so many years...no need to rise the storm.


----------



## Windjammer

Bobby said:


> Hope you have enough money.....



Now that is the last of your worries.....isn't it. 



Bobby said:


> For height of copy paste



Ideally, the aircraft should be designated.......Bharti Burner.

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## Sasquatch

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> England will get pissed...for sure. Now England and Chinese are on calmed water for so many years...no need to rise the storm.



UK China relations have been somewhat downhill.

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## kkacer

CG

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916225953850.JPG

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916230004647.JPG

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916230016100.JPG

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## Windjammer

Albeit, the J-20 looks impressive but the J-31 must be the finest hour of Chinese aircraft development industry.

From the images it's obvious that China has produced a world class fighter.

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## Stealth

Seriously thats what i call "INDEPENDENT Military hardware manufacturer" not like India buying each and everything from USA/Russia/France/Israel!

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## Paan Singh

Stealth said:


> Seriously thats what i call "INDEPENDENT Military hardware manufacturer" not like India buying each and everything from USA/Russia/France/Israel!



How much indigenous hardware u have? and let it prove this in battle..otherwise its just like copy paste a usual


----------



## shuttler

canadian icehole said:


> I'm sure Argentina wouldn't mind having some.



good choice!

and our frigates and our whole catalogue of weapons, by all means!



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> England will get pissed...for sure. Now England and Chinese are on calmed water for so many years...no need to rise the storm.



the Brits have pissed us off for centuries and still going on playing everything nasty in and through HK. Do you know the UK consulate has a strong radar system pointing at Guangzhou? 

And a library of classified files @ bbc? the people who are regulars of FCC-HK?

dont ask me to quote the source!

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## shuttler

TeriShirtDaButton said:


> How much indigenous hardware u have? and let it prove this in battle..otherwise its just like copy paste a usual



that buzz word is for incapable indians to worry about! just be humble which will reduce much of you people's heartburn caused by our progress!

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## Paan Singh

shuttler said:


> that buzz word is for incapable indians to worry about! just be humble which will reduce much of you people's heartburn caused by our progress!



No sir,There was no heart burn...i swear 

keep producing them at mass rate and by tagging 5th gen doesnt prove anything


----------



## Stealth

TeriShirtDaButton said:


> i m impressed by your cheerleading
> 
> btw,your behavior change from thread to thread..



"Teri shirt da main taan button soniye,Baalon ka tere main haaye clip ho gaya " ye enjOy maar

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## Paan Singh

Stealth said:


> "Teri shirt da main taan button soniye,Baalon ka tere main haaye clip ho gaya " ye enjOy maar



i love this song and i sing it while watching pics of rafale

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## Donation

peaceful said:


> *guys, this is a thread about F-60 31001 prototype. it has nothing to do with a backward unindustralized big mouth nation currently building LCA. let's all ignore those indian trolls. *


 i have nothing to add


----------



## kkacer

CGI

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916225953850.JPG

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916230004647.JPG

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/09/16/0916230016100.JPG


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## Paan Singh

Stealth said:


> I know your *** is ***** like hell as ALWAYS lol you guyz buying each and everything from USA/RUSSIA etc FAILED to make any single aircraft... even PAK-FA JOINT VENTURE LOLzz we know how ***** you guyz are.. and we know your capabilities... today if US is not supporting you no one even care about you LOLZ... and why USA is holding you because US has her own objectives LOL.... there is NO MATCH comparsion with kuta bila with CHINA seriously! they are damn going to fast phase!
> 
> Pakistan never claim that we are making bla bla ... so many bullshits which world always heard from India.... when you guyz don't have anything start *****ing about copy paste copy paste... bhai tum b karlo kise nay mana kya hey lolzz losers!



Chinese hired soviet engineers and even MKI here is produced under license from Russia and india even rejected the chinese helicopter which they offered us  as backward tech 

and after enjoying 50 yrs with U.S,you are bashing them.

Reason is smthing else...

Chinese are under weapons embargo from decades and there are not exposed to western tech so thhey have to go with local production in watever manner they can produce. 

so dont look at the shine of the toys..see wats in side it


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## Stealth

TeriShirtDaButton said:


> Chinese hired soviet engineers and even MKI here is produced under license from Russia and india even rejected the chinese helicopter which they offered us  as backward tech
> 
> and after enjoying 50 yrs with U.S,you are bashing them.
> 
> Reason is smthing else...
> 
> Chinese are under weapons embargo from decades and there are not exposed to western tech so thhey have to go with local production in watever manner they can produce.
> 
> so dont look at the shine of the toys..see wats in side it



and we know how much US and France weapons actually battle proven and so called top notch tech already failed 3 wars "vietnam and recently IRAQ and Afghanistan". America already failed in all wars in her history and you're talking about the quality of weapons tech - USA. Secondly you're doing same in 90s about US especially in 1980s when US generals sitting with Pakistan generals remmeba roooooooosssss War!!!

I and all others not talking about Kachra migs either SU or any flanker ... we are talkiing about J31/J20 lol we know how much westren tech capable and used against whom who are having AK47 LOLzzzzzzzzzzzz lanat asay aslay pe jo brabar kay khelaaf istemaal he nahe karsakha so called aap ka WEST!


----------



## Paan Singh

Stealth said:


> and we know how much US and France weapons actually battle proven and so called top notch tech already failed 3 wars "vietnam and recently IRAQ and Afghanistan". America already failed in all wars in her history and you're talking about the quality of weapons tech - USA. Secondly you're doing same in 90s about US especially in 1980s when US generals sitting with Pakistan generals remmeba roooooooosssss War!!!
> 
> I and all others not talking about Kachra migs either SU or any flanker ... we are talkiing about J31/J20 lol we know how much westren tech capable and used against whom who are having AK47 LOLzzzzzzzzzzzz lanat asay aslay pe jo brabar kay khelaaf istemaal he nahe karsakha so called aap ka WEST!


----------



## Beast

TeriShirtDaButton said:


> Chinese hired soviet engineers and even MKI here is produced under license from Russia and india even rejected the chinese helicopter which they offered us  as backward tech
> 
> and after enjoying 50 yrs with U.S,you are bashing them.
> 
> Reason is smthing else...
> 
> Chinese are under weapons embargo from decades and there are not exposed to western tech so thhey have to go with local production in watever manner they can produce.
> 
> so dont look at the shine of the toys..see wats in side it



Obvious you know nothing... Bragging is Indian speciality. 

Wow.. You assemble the MKI, what have you learn? Nothing... Yr domestic Kaveri engine just get killed.
Alot of so called domestic project basically let Indian learn nothing. A lot of critical component are in fact shipped in from foreign countries, in whole piece. You never know the know how.

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## SHAMK9

Another thread flamed by Bharatis  their love for China is showing

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## giant panda



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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

TeriShirtDaButton said:


> Chinese are under weapons embargo from decades and there are not exposed to western tech so thhey have to go with local production in watever manner they can produce.
> 
> so dont look at the shine of the toys..see wats in side it



You see..this call potential leapfrog : if china need to follow western steps to copy the inferior export version of military hardware...than there will never a chance for China to excede them...the only way of sucess is adventuring in different paths away from western countries or "chinese's way of doing things" and invest alot on the basic R&D.

And thanks to western embargo...that these two little monsters (j-20 & j-31) see the daylight regardless of its capabilities...otherwise we might have to continue copy & paste of western or Russian under-rated version of export fighters.


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## Sasquatch

Please stick to the thread without trolling.


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## giant panda




----------



## Wet Shirt Contest

I read 1st Few pages Of this thread, 

Is it Real Or Photoshopped Image ? Design looks Much Similar To J20 Minus Canards and Some other Minor Changes.
Any credible Source Available ? 

Respected Member's Clear The Air 
Thanks


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

giant panda said:


>



is that Ghen Ghis khan falcon???  ..I hear the Nuhacci like to use similar falcon to track Ming army.


----------



## Korean

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I don't know how true you said that China has stolen F-35 data,


That news was widely reported in the US. And today's leak confirms that was the case.



> I'm wondering why Americans still keep hiring Chinese top scientists and engineers


US defense contractors don't.


----------



## Sanchez

It's not a carrier fighter...


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## Korean

Beast said:


> You shall tell that to him not to underetimate the chinese that we can innovate too.


Well, this jet is not a sign of Chinese innovation. J-20 is far more original and is optimized for its role, this jet isn't. It carries over all the design defects of F-35 and make it worse by putting two engines in, which reduces fuel capacity and range. The F-35 is aerodynamically compromised to achieve SVTOL, and no conventional jet needs to replicate those compromises, yet Chinese did just that.

The F-35 was the worst fighter jet out of the US aerospace industry in 40 years(Before that, the worst was F-104, another Lockheed product), and Chinese copied that with stolen data..

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## S10

Korean said:


> That news was widely reported in the US. And today's leak confirms that was the case.
> 
> 
> US defense contractors don't.


How's that F-22 rip-off you called K-X? Did the Indonesians shoot your spies yet?


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## S10

Korean said:


> Well, this jet is not a sign of Chinese innovation. J-20 is far more original and is optimized for its role, this jet isn't. It carries over all the design defects of F-35 and make it worse by putting two engines in, which reduces fuel capacity and range. The F-35 is aerodynamically compromised to achieve SVTOL, and no conventional jet needs to replicate those compromises, yet Chinese did just that.
> 
> The F-35 was the worst fighter jet out of the US aerospace industry in 40 years(Before that, the worst was F-104, another Lockheed product), and Chinese copied that with stolen data..


If you were anymore retarded, you'd officially go into the negative IQ territory.

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## wakapdf

congratulations  ... who cares if its innovation or copied, majority of US war machinery is copied of German ww2 tech


----------



## ptldM3

wakapdf said:


> congratulations  ... who cares if its innovation or copied, *majority of US war machinery is copied of German ww2 tech*



Can't tell if serious...


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Korean said:


> Well, this jet is not a sign of Chinese innovation. J-20 is far more original and is optimized for its role, this jet isn't. It carries over all the design defects of F-35 and make it worse by putting two engines in, which reduces fuel capacity and range. The F-35 is aerodynamically compromised to achieve SVTOL, and no conventional jet needs to replicate those compromises, yet Chinese did just that.
> 
> The F-35 was the worst fighter jet out of the US aerospace industry in 40 years(Before that, the worst was F-104, another Lockheed product), and Chinese copied that with stolen data..



You can't be serious just with 3 pictures to judge this aircraft, innovation doesn't have mean to be on the shape or aerodynamic, it can be internally such materiaux, Avionic or assembly. if the shape of this aircraft met the stealthy criteria...why reinvented the wheel??

As for the engine, I believe the basic aspect of design is to meet the military requirement: fuel penalty with two engine to increase aircraft reliability and safety or single engine with long range, 
nowady a air-air engagement will only lasted few minutes once each side detect other...the aircraft aerobatic performance is very critical...so i believe two engine is right choice.


----------



## Nirvana

grey boy 2 said:


> Some so-called specifications of this 5 gen fighter(&#31933;&#23376;&#26426;&#30340;&#31933;&#23376;&#39301;&#22270;&#35299; )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ¡°ôÕ×Ó»ú¡±µÄ¡°ôÕ×ÓÏÚ¡±Í¼½â ÀàËÆF-22(2)-¾üÊÂÈÈÍ¼-¾üÊÂÇ°ÑØ¾üÊÂÍø



CAN YOU TRANSLATE Some of the specifications ?


----------



## TopCat

Kudos to chinese..... hope more information will be revealed about the bird within few days... keep posting guys..


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## TopCat

So the bird can carry weapons both internally and externally??? how about the stealth while it carries weapon externally?


----------



## Esc8781

Hu Songshan said:


> Please stick to the thread without trolling.


 Make this into a sticky


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nirvana said:


> CAN YOU TRANSLATE Some of the specifications ?



it's just a description of each components such win, flap, SDI intake, engine of the aircraft ... pretty much obvious to guess without the need for translation


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Korean said:


> Well, this jet is not a sign of Chinese innovation. J-20 is far more original and is optimized for its role, this jet isn't. It carries over all the design defects of F-35 and make it worse by putting two engines in, which reduces fuel capacity and range. The F-35 is aerodynamically compromised to achieve SVTOL, and no conventional jet needs to replicate those compromises, yet Chinese did just that.
> 
> The F-35 was the worst fighter jet out of the US aerospace industry in 40 years(Before that, the worst was F-104, another Lockheed product), and Chinese copied that with stolen data..




I tend to agree with you. the wing span is also very small like F-35. maybe 2 engines are incorporated with point defence not range and endurance in mind and also some extra kick which is impossible to achieve at current Chinese tech level. remember that F35 is boasted to have the biggest single engine of a fighter jet and is a very heavy plane too. copying that deign meant that a single Russian or Chinese engine might not have even managed to get the plane off from the tarmac (ok thats an exaggeration but you understand the context)


the PS pics in post number 306 suggest that there might be a Naval version of that with that extended hook


----------



## Nirvana

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> it's just a description of each components such win, flap, SDI intake, engine of the aircraft ... pretty much obvious to guess without the need for translation




Which Engine ? Radar ? range of the fighter ? Payload ? all this things are mentioned' ?


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Nirvana said:


> Which Engine ? Radar ? range of the fighter ? Payload ? all this things are mentioned' ?



Nothing specific about what you asked on the description...that's all about about secretcy right? ...otherwise it will make spy job too easy.

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## Korean

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> if the shape of this aircraft met the stealthy criteria...why reinvented the wheel??


Because the F-35 design is most optimized for SVTOL, and pays the price in terms of acceleration, range, and max speed.



> As for the engine, I believe the basic aspect of design is to meet the military requirement: fuel penalty with two engine to increase aircraft reliability and safety or single engine with long range


The Chinese engineers may not have had a choice because the F-35 is a highly draggy design that needed 40,000 lbs of thrust. 



> nowady a air-air engagement will only lasted few minutes once each side detect other...the aircraft aerobatic performance is very critical...so i believe two engine is right choice.


But two engines take up more space, leaving less room for fuel. The F-35 with 8.5 tons of internal fuel gets only 590 nm combat radius; and it is actually failing to achieve that range target. If the Chinese F-35 has two engines, then its fuel capacity is even lower.

The better solution was learn from the F-35 data and design a new airframe that fixes the design compromises of F-35, but the Chinese engineers decided to not to take that path, as it appears that stealth and time to market were more important than the most optimal airframe design.


----------



## manqiangrexue

With all due respect, Korean, I do not agree with your analysis.

1. You are being too harsh on the F-35. You make it sound like a complete failure with no merits at all. I won't analyze it bit-by-bit because I don't have the aerodynamics degrees and inside information needed to make a conclusive analysis but you have to know that the F-35 will be the premier fighter for the Western world (and possibly Japan and Korea) for quite a while. It just can't be all flaws.

2. You are not giving the Chinese enough credit. You are assuming that the Chinese basically stole the F-35 design, and had no idea what to make of anything, so just copied it directly and hoped that it flies. You are assuming that the top engineers in China know less than you do about the flaws of the F-35 yet they're the ones with aerodynamics degrees and they actually have the F-35 blueprints. You are assuming that even after the F-35 was done and many flaws analyzed, the Chinese still incorporated them almost deliberately. Basically, you're saying that you could have made a much better plane if you headed the project.

To me, this plane seems to fuse the F-35 with the F-22. From the front, it looks like the F-35 with larger wings and stabilizers. From the side, it looks somewhat like the Raptor. I would expect that it has improved the F-35's aerodynamic challenges by incorporating some aspects of the Raptor (heck, maybe the Chinese got the blueprints to that one too) but kept many of the advances and money-saving designs of the F-35. I expect this to be a plane that gives amazing bang for the buck (like the JF-17)

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## UKBengali

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> You see..this call potential leapfrog : if china need to follow western steps to copy the inferior export version of military hardware...than there will never a chance for China to excede them...the only way of sucess is adventuring in different paths away from western countries or "chinese's way of doing things" and invest alot on the basic R&D.
> 
> And thanks to western embargo...that these two little monsters (j-20 & j-31) see the daylight regardless of its capabilities...otherwise we might have to continue copy & paste of western or Russian under-rated version of export fighters.



Indian fools think that only by being exposed to Western technology can other's progress.

Wait till 2020, with both the J-20 and J-31 in Chinese service, and see them p*ssing in their pants, as all they will have will be low-tech Su-30 and Rafale fighters and maybe that supposed 5th generation PAK-FA which looks very non-stealth to me

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Korean said:


> Because the F-35 design is most optimized for SVTOL, and pays the price in terms of acceleration, range, and max speed.



China didn&#8217;t take all aspect of F-35, beside the DSI intake, I&#8217;m pretty sure this J-31 has several hundred hours in wind tunnel tests to tweak the design to meet military planner&#8217;s wish.



> The Chinese engineers may not have had a choice because the F-35 is a highly draggy design that needed 40,000 lbs of thrust.



That&#8217;s why we go with two engines...if China can have F-35&#8217;s engine...might as well to copy integrally F-35 with VTOL...we need similar F-35 for carrier too but it&#8217;s a wet dream



> But two engines take up more space, leaving less room for fuel. The F-35 with 8.5 tons of internal fuel gets only 590 nm combat radius; and it is actually failing to achieve that range target. If the Chinese F-35 has two engines, then its fuel capacity is even lower.



Don&#8217;t forget it&#8217;s slidely bigger that F-35...the fuel tank will be enough for the mission



> The better solution was learn from the F-35 data and design a new airframe that fixes the design compromises of F-35, but the Chinese engineers decided to not to take that path, as it appears that stealth and time to market were more important than the most optimal airframe design.



Than show us how the aircraft should be look like if you&#8217;re so convincing that the J-31 airframe is wrong. Make some hand sketch...will just fine but do it in Pro/Engineer or Solid Work is even better


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

UKBengali said:


> Indian fools think that only by being exposed to Western technology can other's progress.
> 
> Wait till 2020, with both the J-20 and J-31 in Chinese service, and see them p*ssing in their pants, as all they will have will be low-tech Su-30 and Rafale fighters and maybe that supposed 5th generation PAK-FA which looks very non-stealth to me



You gonna get bombarment from them for your insult of their mighty PAK-FA


----------



## Korean

manqiangrexue said:


> 1. You are being too harsh on the F-35.


It is not just me, the western world is full of F-35 critics.



> You make it sound like a complete failure with no merits at all.


It is.



> 2. You are not giving the Chinese enough credit. You are assuming that the Chinese basically stole the F-35 design,


Chinese F-35 design data hacking is widely reported in the US. According to sources, Chinese "took the whole thing", and now you are witnessing the result.



> You are assuming that even after the F-35 was done and many flaws analyzed,


They may not have done this.



> the Chinese still incorporated them almost deliberately.


That saves time and money.



> Basically, you're saying that you could have made a much better plane if you headed the project.


It depends. If your project has money and time, then you would try to find an optimal solution. If not, then you copy and paste.

Shenyang and Chengdu do their businesses quite differently and these differences are reflected in their product.

Chengdu, the maker of J-20 and JF-17, creates partially or wholly original aircraft. Whatever the jet their models were based on, Chengdu takes its time to do the R&D and the end product is significantly different and unique, representing a Chinese solution to a problem.

Shenyang did license/unlicensed production of Russian jets for most of its history, and their models differ little from the Russian originals externally. And Shenyang decided to get into the business of replicating western jets, starting with the F-35.


----------



## Esc8781

Korean said:


> It is not just me, the western world is full of F-35 critics.
> 
> 
> It is.
> 
> 
> Chinese F-35 design data hacking is widely reported in the US. According to sources, Chinese "took the whole thing", and now you are witnessing the result.
> 
> 
> They may not have done this.
> 
> 
> That saves time and money.
> 
> 
> It depends. If your project has money and time, then you would try to find an optimal solution. If not, then you copy and paste.
> 
> Shenyang and Chengdu do their businesses quite differently and these differences are reflected in their product.
> 
> Chengdu, the maker of J-20 and JF-17, creates partially or wholly original aircraft. Whatever the jet their models were based on, Chengdu takes its time to do the R&D and the end product is significantly different and unique, representing a Chinese solution to a problem.
> 
> Shenyang did license/unlicensed production of Russian jets for most of its history, and their models differ little from the Russian originals externally. And Shenyang decided to get into the business of replicating western jets, starting with the F-35.


 The F-22 was full of critics also, this is why they need to keep projects like the b-2 secret imagine if the b-2 was in the public domain it would of gotten hard bashing.


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Korean said:


> Chinese F-35 design data hacking is widely reported in the US. According to sources, Chinese "took the whole thing", and now you are witnessing the result.



Can't be serious...China took the whole thing? ...than it's worthless for US to continue with F-35 because Chinese will be able to design an fighter to counter it. I'm wondering why they still push forward and continue F-35 program, is there a rational explaination?


----------



## Korean

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Than show us how the aircraft should be look like if you&#8217;re so convincing that the J-31 airframe is wrong. Make some hand sketch...will just fine but do it in Pro/Engineer or Solid Work is even better









Much flatter than the F-35, creating less frontal area for drag.


----------



## Korean

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I'm wondering why they still push forward and continue F-35 program, is there a rational explaination?


The F-35 is basically an A-35, an attack jet that flies under the protection of F-22 and F-15 Golden Eagle(An upgraded F-15 with latest AESA radar and avionics).


----------



## Pak47

Is 

J-21 and J-31 same thing? (is it just typo?)

The snowy oil and this look very similar.


----------



## Korean

Esc8781 said:


> The F-22 was full of critics.


F-22's critics criticize about its cost and oxygen problem, not its performance in air. The F-22 is truly one of a kind jet.


----------



## Esc8781

Korean said:


> The F-35 is basically an A-35, an attack jet that flies under the protection of F-22 and F-15 Golden Eagle(An upgraded F-15 with latest AESA radar and avionics).


 Something tells me that you don't know much of aerodynamics. I don't either.

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## SOHEIL

Hollllly Sh!T !!! 

J-31 !!!???


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## Korean

Pak47 said:


> Is
> 
> J-21 and J-31 same thing? (is it just typo?)
> 
> The snowy oil and this look very similar.



No one knows what its official name is. But yes, J-21 and J-31 refer to the same jet.

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## Esc8781

Korean said:


> F-22's critics criticize about its cost and oxygen problem, not its performance in air. The F-22 is truly one of a kind jet.


 The Yf-22 times they were criticizing it during the gulf war saying what is the use of this f-15s can already do this.


----------



## Korean

Esc8781 said:


> The Yf-22 times they were criticizing it during the gulf war saying what is the use of this f-15s can already do this.



So who criticizes the F-22's combat performance? No one.


----------



## Esc8781

Korean said:


> So who criticizes the F-22's combat performance? No one.


 Yes they were, when 1 f-22s go into combat with 4 f-15s that shut their mouths, lesson is don't listen to critics.


----------



## manqiangrexue

Korean, the F-35 has many critics but also many defenders. If you really think that it is all flaws and no merits then you are clearly not fit to judge anything. There is obviously a lot you don't know and your opinion is extremely biased. You think the Chinese can steal a massively criticized design, not analyze it at all and then copy it anyway? That's like copying the class idiot's homework and not checking it before turning it in! You just posted a pic of the yet-to-be-made ATDX and said the J-31 needs to be flatter. Oh, really, someone please tell Shenyang that. They couldn't figure it out with all their testing but you did in a second by looking at a cartoon of a plane shooting down another plane. 

You just don't think anyone is intelligent other than yourself, huh? Here's what I think. You know so little about what planes should look like and understand so little of the complexities to designing an airplane that you think all the experts actually making stealth airplanes are idiots. The more you learn, the less you know. If not, and you're just a born aircraft genius and should definitely go work on the KFX in Korea. Now, if you take your cartoon planes and your ideas there and for some unknown reason, they choose NOT to offer you the position of head of design... that may indicate that you're not quite as ahead of the game as you would like to think.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Korean said:


> Much flatter than the F-35, creating less frontal area for drag.



you mean something like this


----------



## qinglong-china

in July, cctv-4 has already released a signal. I also said the thing in the forum. But no one seems to believe.
next, expect j21 by chengdu. 
j20 chengdu
j31 shenyang
j21 chengdu
??? shenyang

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## qinglong-china

haha, look forward to more surprises


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## Kompromat

Since, the air craft is now proven to be original, i have stuck the thread & from now on ALL related news must be posted here.

Thank you


----------



## siegecrossbow

Bill Sweetman's insights on the plane. He sounds a bit exasperated:

China's New Stealth Fighter. Not a repeat from December 2010.


----------



## Korean

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> you mean something like this


Yes, something like PAK-FA.


----------



## Windjammer

Korean said:


> Much flatter than the F-35, creating less frontal area for drag.



Boards don't hit back....bullets and missiles do kill. Lol at imaginative painting. 

Chinese military published shock screens of shooting down U-2 to warn the U.S. - China Military Report


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Korean said:


> Yes, something like PAK-FA.



LOL only If you said that earlier... we dont' have to waste time and money and directly go join PaK-FA ..,I guess it's too late right?


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## Windjammer

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> LOL only If you said that earlier... we dont' have to waste time and money and directly go join PaK-FA ..,I guess it's too late right?

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## Pak47

qinglong-china said:


> in July, cctv-4 has already released a signal. I also said the thing in the forum. But no one seems to believe.
> next, expect j21 by chengdu.
> j20 chengdu
> j31 shenyang
> j21 chengdu
> ??? shenyang




J-21 and J-31 are not the same?


----------



## Hyperion

Windjammer said:


>


@Windjammer, who is that in your avatar pic? Is it Irfan Khan?


----------



## Kompromat

Hyperion said:


> @Windjammer, who is that in your avatar pic? Is it Irfan Khan?




Haseeb Paracha

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## Hyperion

Aeronaut said:


> Haseeb Paracha


I swear he looks a lot like Nur Khans son! 

Or, maybe my memory is playing games!


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## Windjammer

Hyperion said:


> @Windjammer, who is that in your avatar pic? Is it Irfan Khan?



Ace of aces.....Group Captain Haseeb Paracha.... hint...F-16 display on Pakistan day 23rd March 2005. Check it out on you tube.

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## Hyperion

Windjammer said:


> Ace of aces.....Group Captain Haseeb Paracha.... hint...F-16 display on Pakistan day 23rd March 2005. Check it out on you tube.


I know....I Know buddy!

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## Pak47

^^^

wing commander of 11th squadron i believe. First squad with F-16's.


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## Hyperion

Pak47 said:


> ^^^
> 
> leader of 11th squadron i believe. First squad with F-16's.


I think 9th Sq.


----------



## Dazzler

Seems like Chinese are tired of churning out 4th generation fighters, now they are churning out 5th Gen, wow!

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## Pak47

Hyperion said:


> I think 9th Sq.



wrong info above i changed it..

and this video here mentions 11.

and no.. 9th squad was 2nd to be equipped with F16

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## Kompromat

He is retired i guess.

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## Hyperion

Aeronaut said:


> He is retired i guess.


That's what I thought as well, probably with PIA or some other airline. Most good pilots end up working for General Dynamics or some corporation and get involved in marketing of F16's and other AC's.


----------



## Pak47

Bit of info i found on him

This is Group captain Haseeb Paracha &#9829; ,The man who escorted C-130s from Israeli threats when Pakistan was deploying its Nuclear devices in Chaghi !! Also he is the man behind High mark exercise 2005 one of the mission was to fly 8000 sorties in two weeks using all the infra structure including motorway (A record of PAF) and has completed 2000+ hours in F-16 safe guarding us from India all the time !!

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

shiv said:


> one design aspect he is talking.. not the entire aerodynamic structure.. but anyways, CCP paid you well to stick around the mud..



C'mon don't take away my excitement for this new aircraft, i've sticked around this thread waiting for new pictures...CCP don't even have a clue where I'm hidding...that's an outrage statement .


----------



## Pak47

Aeronaut said:


> He is retired i guess.



Yeah, he lives in USA now.

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## Enemy

qinglong-china said:


> in July, cctv-4 has already released a signal. I also said the thing in the forum. But no one seems to believe.
> next, expect j21 by chengdu.
> j20 chengdu
> j31 shenyang
> j21 chengdu
> ??? shenyang



Is this a photo-shop or real plane? 







Is this J 21 or J 31?


----------



## Kompromat

Enemy said:


> Is this a photo-shop or real plane?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this J 21 or J 31?



Photoshopped.

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## Bratva

Aeronaut said:


> He is retired i guess.



Last whereabouts i heard, he was defense attache in Pakistani embassy in Washington

Ambassadors and key officers


----------



## takijoy

i think it will fly soon,maybe next month.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Sometime you just have to be proud of being a Chinese.

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## manqiangrexue

All the time, brother, all the time!

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## cirr

Windjammer said:


> Man, that line up already looks very impressive, with the new kid on the block, Pakistan is really spoilt for choice now.



In a couple of months&#65292;all the J-10As in the line-up will be replaced by J-10Bs&#65292; and 2002 will be joined by 2003 which differs from its brother in quite a few aspects&#12290;

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## cirr

Windjammer said:


> In case you guys didn't notice, the J-31 has two piece while the J-20 has a single piece cockpit canopy.



it's an AVIC funded programme&#65292; and for economic reasons&#65292; the company&#65288;SAC&#65289;has opted for two-piece cockpit for 31001 and 31002&#65292;with single pice cockpit starting from 31003.


----------



## cirr

Hu Songshan said:


> I was a skeptic at first but indeed the real thing.



To be frank&#65292;I am not excited in the least by the arrival of this particular plane&#65292;for it has long been expected and overdue&#12290;I am however really excited by the prospect of seeing another &#8220;bigger&#8221; production of the same company in a short span of time&#65288;well&#65292;short in so far as plane making is concerne&#65289;&#12290;

Let's wait and see what SAC brings in&#65292;say&#65292;2 years&#12290;


----------



## April.lyrics

Esc8781 said:


> Developing two stealth fighters at the same time is going to be difficult though wish you all the luck  plus there is one of them is longed range and one of them is on the carriers so both of them can be implemented in the South China sea. So the J-20 was in a ATF competition already nice.



there is no competetion between J20 and this J31.

CAC's J20 is the winner of PLAAF 4th gen fighter.the bid was over in 2007.SAC also had a design for that,which was lost to CAC J20.

this J31 is a different design from SAC,which intend to draw eyes of PLANAF and foreign countries.it is smaller,lighter and cheaper.the engine would be RD-93 or ws-13(an RD-93 variant).compared with J20,J31 is more like a multi-role fighter.


----------



## cirr

a few nuggets of info&#65306;

&#65288;1&#65289;J-20 2001 is flying with bomb/missile racks
&#65288;2&#65289;J-20 2003 is being given a major face-lift
&#65288;3&#65289;J-20S in detailed design
&#65288;4&#65289;J-15S already flew
&#65288;5&#65289;J-10B in mass production


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## cirr

Korean said:


> Much flatter than the F-35, creating less frontal area for drag.



Your problem is that you believe too much in what the US&#65292;or any western media for that matter&#65292;tells you&#12290;

We all know that&#65292;with English being the predominant language&#65292;the Anglo-Saxons have in their possession the worl'd's mightiest propaganda machine&#12290;

It is very very easy to be brainwashed thus&#12290;

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## no_name

cirr said:


> a few nuggets of info&#65306;
> 
> &#65288;1&#65289;J-20 2001 is flying with bomb/missile racks
> &#65288;2&#65289;J-20 2003 is being given a major &#8220;face-lift&#8221;
> &#65288;3&#65289;J-20S in detailed design
> &#65288;4&#65289;J-15S already flew
> &#65288;5&#65289;J-10B in mass production



Do you have the link or source where these info came from?


----------



## cirr

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> C'mon don't take away my excitement for this new aircraft, i've sticked around this thread waiting for new pictures...CCP don't even have a clue where I'm hidding...that's an outrage statement .



These guys still live in the 1960s or 70s&#12290;

Let them keep the fond memory of the past.


----------



## qinglong-china

Pak47 said:


> J-21 and J-31 are not the same?


j-21 reported by media is j-31 by shenyang. But real j-21 is another after j-20 by chengdu.
It sounds a little confused.


----------



## April.lyrics

Oldman1 said:


> Still surprise they used a bird on there instead of a red star.



red star means PLA invested in it and would be equipment by PLA.

this bird logo mean it is some program operated by SAC and hardly have anything to do with PLA.


----------



## UTONY

The mysterious rice dumpling.


----------



## April.lyrics

HellzHere said:


> You kiddin me?If it is really something credible,then why isn't it coming out anywhere?
> Weird colors,insignia.
> Looks more like a photoshop work,no one is even talking bout it except here and some Chinese forums.
> Let there be an official word or confirmation or a hint of it,before everyone starts speculating and jumping?



you didnt take a lesson from the J-20 coming-out~

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## qwerrty

engines definitely rd-93 at the moment, but the huge gaps around suggesting designed for larger larger diameter engines..


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## manqiangrexue

Probably for the WS-13 series. The diameter might be slightly bigger than the RD-93, but not WS-10 series or AL-31 series or that's what they would have put on it in the first place.


----------



## Korean

qwerrty said:


> engines definitely rd-93 at the moment, but the huge gaps around suggesting designed for larger larger diameter engines..



Chinese jets do not drop their engines to below like western jets; the engines are pulled out from behind and you need a "cap" to hold the engine in position. This is why you see the gap because the caps are not there.

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## giant panda



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## UTONY

Broccoli said:


> Thanks, you know what is says in those small letters in eagles claws?



In the seal, it is engraved as "&#20013;&#33322;&#24037;&#19994;" which means AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China).


----------



## no_name

I think J-21 was in competition with J-20 but lost out, so they adapted it to become the J-31 for export and also to see if the PLAN/PLANAF would be interested. I don't think they use J-21 term anymore.

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## qinglong-china



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## cirr

We need a clear picture of the front.


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## Dazzler

qinglong-china said:


>



You know what these RD-93 hints at? 

1. This plane is meant for PAF and is the one Sir PShamim talked about

2. There is no suitable medium thrust engine to equip the prototype (my reservations on this since they found WS-10G for J-20 out of nowhere). 

Either way, these are interesting times and, more to follow...

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## Liquidmetal

I wish our Chinese brothers develop this technology too for these 5th Gen aircraft:

BBC News - How 'smart helmets' help pilots in the cockpit 

so no need for HUD etc and have total situational awareness.

As a combination with powerful radars and suitable AA missiles, Pakistan would be silly not to join this project.


----------



## gambit

Korean said:


> Because the F-35 design is most optimized for SVTOL, and pays the price in terms of acceleration, range, and max speed.
> 
> 
> The Chinese engineers may not have had a choice because the F-35 is a highly draggy design that needed 40,000 lbs of thrust.
> 
> 
> But two engines take up more space, leaving less room for fuel. The F-35 with 8.5 tons of internal fuel gets only 590 nm combat radius; and it is actually failing to achieve that range target. If the Chinese F-35 has two engines, then its fuel capacity is even lower.
> 
> The better solution was learn from the F-35 data and design a new airframe that fixes the *design compromises of F-35*, but the Chinese engineers decided to not to take that path, as it appears that stealth and time to market were more important than the most optimal airframe design.


Designing an aircraft -- *ANY* aircraft -- is an exercise in prioritizing competing demands. The final product is always the result of compromises from that priority list. You are using the wrong words -- 'defects' and 'flaws' -- to describe this process.

As far as the F-35's combat radius goes, its predecessor, the F-16, is no better and yet look how spectacular that fighter turned out.

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## LvpAK

a little small in shape , 2 wheels in the front leg,designed for navy? may be prepared for next carrier.

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## monitor




----------



## gambit

Oldman1 said:


> Is it a VTOL?


For a twin engine? No. Not because of mechanical complexity although it would be challenging, but 'No' because of asymmetric thrust.

In any multi-engine aircraft, each engine is already off centerline and if there is one underperforming engine for any reason, the pilot would have to do either:

1- Reduce thrust in the other engine(s) to match.

...Or...

2- Induce counter yaw via the vertical stab.

Now imagine the potentiality for disaster of one severely degraded engine coming in and try for a VTOL transition, as in a vertical landing. Now imagine what happens if one engine quit. Remember, both engines are off centerline in their thrust.

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## a1b2c145

xuxu1457 said:


> &#40536;&#40560;---Falcon eagle


China usually names her air fighters after all kind of dragons&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281; that's interesting&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;


----------



## gambit

xuxu1457 said:


> &#40536;&#40560;---Falcon eagle


That make no sense. Either it is a 'falcon' or an 'eagle'. Each is a bird-of-prey. There is no such beast as a 'falcon eagle' or 'eagle falcon'.

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## 帅的一匹

Here he finally comes......what a pity!


----------



## gambit

wanglaokan said:


> Here he finally comes......what a pity!


Yes...Too bad for 'Chinese physics'. Now all your claims must be based upon the real laws of nature.

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## PiyaraPakistan

Cong8 China


----------



## Hyperion

gambit said:


> Yes...Too bad for 'Chinese physics'. Now all your claims must be based upon the real laws of nature.



Dude, we all appreciate your input and technical analysis. That's exactly why we make small talk at your expense!

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

gambit said:


> That make no sense. Either it is a 'falcon' or an 'eagle'. Each is a bird-of-prey. There is no such beast as a 'falcon eagle' or 'eagle falcon'.



Already trashing the thread, starting with the fighters name.

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## Audio

Where is Martian and his "one piece canopy is imperative for stealth" rants? I'd love to see him explain this one 

Other then that, it looks good.

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## Audio

double post....


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## Beast

Audio said:


> Where is Martian and his "one piece canopy is imperative for stealth" rants? I'd love to see him explain this one
> 
> Other then that, it looks good.



Becos, this is an export version. It suppose to be inferior. Inferior 2 piece canopy fit in inferior stealth. J-20 is still the king and is fully endorsed by PLAAF. j-31 is still in doubt whether to enter PLAN service.


----------



## cirr

Audio said:


> Where is Martian and his "one piece canopy is imperative for stealth" rants? I'd love to see him explain this one
> 
> Other then that, it looks good.



31003 and your wish will come true&#12290;Happier now&#65311;


----------



## Fanling Monk

The beauty that does the beastly works.

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## atlantis_cn

Beast said:


> Becos, this is an export version. It suppose to be inferior. Inferior 2 piece canopy fit in inferior stealth. J-20 is still the king and is fully endorsed by PLAAF. j-31 is still in doubt whether to enter PLAN service.



Kind of a joke?


----------



## Beast

atlantis_cn said:


> Kind of a joke?



It's truth..


----------



## SamranAli

Congrtns China. Really happy for you...


----------



## atlantis_cn

Beast said:


> It's truth..



How dare you say what you believe is truth?


----------



## Beast

atlantis_cn said:


> How dare you say what you believe is truth?



If J-31 is good. You will have see the 81 star instead of the eagle.. What so work up? J-20 wins the 5th gen competition for PLAAF. Everybody's knows that. J-31 suppose to be an export stealth version offer by PRC. An export version of course is inferior..

Did you see US sells their F-22? No.. They sell an export version called F-35. 

J-20 is the best of what PRC has, it will not be export. J-31 will be the one exported.


----------



## Esc8781

Well I am studying cfd models of the f-16. 

Link 
http://81.70.242.211/eab1/manual/Magazine/AIAA%20Journal%20of%20Aircraft/2002/5/Angle-of-Attack%20Effect%20on%20Transonic%20Supersonic%20Aeroelasticity%20of%20Wing-Box%20Model.pdf


----------



## atlantis_cn

Beast said:


> If J-31 is good. You will have see the 81 star instead of the eagle.. What so work up? J-20 wins the 5th gen competition for PLAAF. Everybody's knows that. J-31 suppose to be an export stealth version offer by PRC. An export version of course is inferior..
> 
> Did you see US sells their F-22? No.. They sell an export version called F-35.
> 
> J-20 is the best of what PRC has, it will not be export. J-31 will be the one exported.



You are an optimistic guy that's all right. But I think any person with a reasonable mind will know that to believe SAC can make money out of this fifth generation fighter which most potential buyer is still the third world country is way too optimistic. Unlike JF-17 which use all mature technology from J10, SAC has no experience on fifth generation bird, this project needs great invest on R&D by SAC. Besides, it's an twin engine plane which will make it even more expensive.

I don't believe J-31 is for export only. And I extremely don't believe China is capable enough to use inferior technology on its fifth generation fighter. It's just an medium size fifth generation plane which is different from J20, that's all.

And BTW, US also buy F35 for their own force.


----------



## Beast

atlantis_cn said:


> You are an optimistic guy that's all right. But I think any person with a reasonable mind will know that to believe SAC can make money out of this fifth generation fighter which most potential buyer is still the third world country is way too optimistic. Unlike JF-17 which use all mature technology from J10, SAC has no experience on fifth generation bird, this project needs great invest on R&D by SAC. Besides, it's an twin engine plane which will make it even more expensive.
> 
> I don't believe J-31 is for export only. And I extremely don't believe China is capable enough to use inferior technology on its fifth generation fighter. It's just an medium size fifth generation plane which is different from J20, that's all.
> 
> And BTW, US also buy F35 for their own force.


 You did not answer why only F-35 is exported while F-22 is not. Same as J-20 and J-31 cases. I think I do not need to explain more. Even a 5 years old kid will know which is better. Thanks!


----------



## kurutoga

My take on the name/designation is that PLAF may not order this new jet, therefore it may not ever get a J-number. Note even JF-17 is not a true PLAF J-jet. What people are guessing at this point is, if PLAF every purchase the new jet it may get assigned J-21. Or, judging from the number printed on the prototype now, it might be J-31 even. However, no one knows this point. If PLAF is behind this project, you will see the 81 star, I am sure.

Let's suppose eventually PLANAF or PLAN orders this new jet for either landbased use or AC, it would be under a different designation. Either JH-XX or H-XX, I think.

Also, about the name, it is widely rumored the bird is "Falco rusticolus", which is a large falcon living in the cold, northern areas. In other words, it is where ShenYang is. This bird may be called a Gyrfalcon in English.
Gyrfalcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It has a more fearful name in chinese.


----------



## Speeder 2

...so I almost missed teh whole show? ...



*I like that CG frontal shot. A gorgeous bird! *


That said, what I hate, though, is that SAC image designer/s, complete nutters!

1, why the heck put a so complicated eagle sign there alongwith all those circles?

2, why the heck put some Chinese Characters all over it?

3, why the heck its so colourful? With red, white, light blue , dark blue, grey, light grey allover?

4. why the heck paint a white nose?

And for gods sake 5, why have its interior painted bloody red, if the exterior is dark blue?


Its said that it has intl sales in mind, but trust me any potential buyer who is willing to give ya 80mio+ bucks will have a minimum level of aesthetic taste, on colours at least, except India of course.

It doesnt matter if SAC has no clue whatsoever on some basic universally-accepted concepts of elegance, they only need to look at those long-established classic car designs at doorsteps.

Take a Merc or Porsche, which black coloured Porsche with red leather seats? And which Merc with BIG M-E-R-C-E-D-E-Z letters together with some complicated animal sign sticker with all the colours one can gather painted right on its side door?

Or have you seen, ever, an elegant Armani black dinner dress with a giant colourful A-R-M-A-N-I sticker on its chest? 

For god sake even distasteful Yankee RL are not as low as that, so when they put on a big horse sign on those Olympics suits at least they used 1 colour. 

Is there any elementary level interior designer available in Manchuria, I mean seriously? 

This J-31 looks gorgeous structurewise, dont get me wrong, yet those s@#kers who put on the aforementioned 5 stunts should be rounded up and shot!

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## Audio

atlantis_cn said:


> You are an optimistic guy that's all right. But I think any person with a reasonable mind will know that to believe SAC can make money out of this fifth generation fighter which most potential buyer is still the third world country is way too optimistic. Unlike JF-17 which use all mature technology from J10, SAC has no experience on fifth generation bird, this project needs great invest on R&D by SAC. Besides, it's an twin engine plane which will make it even more expensive.
> 
> I don't believe J-31 is for export only. And I extremely don't believe China is capable enough to use inferior technology on its fifth generation fighter. It's just an medium size fifth generation plane which is different from J20, that's all.
> 
> And BTW, US also buy F35 for their own force.



hear, hear, a Chinese that actually makes sense. Congrats, buddy, very level headed post and most likely very close to the truth. 
It does not make sense to design a jet just for export. Buyers that want China hi-tech (with enough cash) are quite limited. But im sure every dirt poor country with a dictator at the helm would want one, how will they pay is another matter.


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## Echo_419

I have to admit it looks dam good


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## Pak47

Beast said:


> If J-31 is good. You will have see the 81 star instead of the eagle.. What so work up? J-20 wins the 5th gen competition for PLAAF. Everybody's knows that. J-31 suppose to be an export stealth version offer by PRC. An export version of course is inferior..
> 
> Did you see US sells their F-22? No.. They sell an export version called F-35.
> 
> J-20 is the best of what PRC has, it will not be export. J-31 will be the one exported.



1. F-35-U.S. is using as well to replace F16
2. There isn't enough info if it is going to be exported or not.
3. If it is exported it won't be the most lethal version. For example.. China/Pakistan's Jf-17's will be more advanced then lets say Azerbaijan.


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## kurutoga

In all seriousness, what is preventing India from befriending with China? Forget about history, the trend is China will become a military and economy power. The worst thing is to make enemy out of it. Why not embrace it instead?

India can buy J-31 (or whatever it is called). Cheaper and simpler to operate. The deal would ensure no future wars will happen between China and India. So India can focus on its own issues especially peacefully co-existing with Pakistan.

Anyone can swallow their pride without getting sick (was it from a Japanese idiom?)


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## Esc8781

Lots of new members are coming to pdf because of this.

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## rashtriya.rifles

kurutoga said:


> In all seriousness, what is preventing India from befriending with China? Forget about history, the trend is China will become a military and economy power. The worst thing is to make enemy out of it. Why not embrace it instead?
> 
> India can buy J-31 (or whatever it is called). Cheaper and simpler to operate. The deal would ensure no future wars will happen between China and India. So India can focus on its own issues especially *peacefully co-existing with Pakistan.
> *
> Anyone can swallow their pride without getting sick (was it from a Japanese idiom?)



if not for our own PM, the entire Kashmir would have been ours. In '71 we captured 93000 PoWs. We still didn't forced pakistan to return the rest of Kashmir. We still don't want it.. what do u think ? we are war-mongers ?


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## Pak47

rashtriya.rifles said:


> if not for our own PM, the entire Kashmir would have been ours. In '71 we captured 93000 PoWs. We still didn't forced pakistan to return the rest of Kashmir. We still don't want it.. what do u think ? we are war-mongers ?



Great another Einstein fed up on Indian Media.

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## conworldus

I doubt this bird will be of any competition for the J-20. However, if successful, it might just impose serious threat to the stealth version of JF-17. If SAC can produce this at moderate price, what would Pakistan do? Keep working with CAC on the JF-17 or jump to SAC?


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## Kompromat

China's New Stealth Fighter. Not a repeat from December 2010.

Some people didn't like it.

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## gambit

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> Already trashing the thread, starting with the fighters name.


Just stay within the real laws of physics and y'all will be fine with me...


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## Hyperion

Aeronaut said:


> China's New Stealth Fighter. Not a repeat from December 2010.
> 
> Some people didn't like it.



Who cares... serves them right!


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## gambit

Audio said:


> Where is Martian and his "one piece canopy is imperative for stealth" rants? I'd love to see him explain this one
> 
> Other then that, it looks good.


If we take two pyramids of different sizes and put them under radar bombardment, both will have statistically similar EM radiation signatures, only their intensities differs with the physically larger one producing the higher intensity.

Now...If we begins to smooth/round out the larger pyramid's sharp edges and points, we will have a progressively declining RCS. 












If we continue to work on the larger pyramid's surface flaws, perhaps even introducing slight curvatures on its sides to induce surface wave behaviors, while keeping the general pyramid shape, it is possible that we can match the smaller pyramid's RCS. Or even lower. Keep in mind that the B-2 is electromagnetically as small as a bird at most operational radar detection distance, so we know this method works.

Let us assume that for now, this latest from China looks like it copied most of the F-22's general shaping arrangement, and probably would have a similar RCS signature. The question then is intensity, as in its physical dimensions and assorted surface 'roughness' that will contribute to a section's reflective power.

What our man will do is to refer back to what I tried to teach him a long time ago about the concept of threshold, which he seems to be incapable of digesting.


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

Korean said:


> The F-35 is basically an A-35, an attack jet that flies under the protection of F-22 and F-15 Golden Eagle(An upgraded F-15 with latest AESA radar and avionics).



A-35, Really? Then what happens to those partner countries who bought the plane for their navies, but don't have air superiority fighter to cover your so-called "A-35"'s back? they are screwed? namely UK, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway, Denmark, etc. etc.

Don't say that USA will send F-15 to cover for its allies in every instance. Let's say UK's Royal Navy is at war with Argentina in South America again, so no Euro-fighter's cover, only carrier based F-35B, are you saying F-35B needs air cover? Then why the heck UK need these planes for?


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## tanlixiang28776

It seems that with the stocky two wheeled front landing gear that the J 31 was meant for naval or carrier operations. A single piece canopy is not sufficient to withstand the larger impact forces of larger seabirds. This is the same reason the F 35 uses a two piece canopy.

China already has one piece canopy implemented on the J 20 so there isn't a technological reason it couldn't be implemented on the J 31.


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## Esc8781

tanlixiang28776 said:


> It seems that with the stocky two wheeled front landing gear that the J 31 was meant for naval or carrier operations. A single piece canopy is not sufficient to withstand the larger impact forces of larger seabirds. This is the same reason the F 35 uses a two piece canopy.
> 
> China already has one piece canopy implemented on the J 20 so there isn't a technological reason it couldn't be implemented on the J 31.


 It might be the reason that kind of canopy is more structural resistant to birds than the one on the j-20, watch this test. 






http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/Birdstrike%20Impact%20Studies.pdf 

The F-35C has a ONE PIECE canopy not a two.


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## Viper0011.

Pak47 said:


> 1. F-35-U.S. is using as well to replace F16
> 2. There isn't enough info if it is going to be exported or not.
> 3. If it is exported it won't be the most lethal version. For example.. China/Pakistan's Jf-17's will be more advanced then lets say Azerbaijan.



1) The F-35 isn't just to replace the F-16's. F-16's will remain here for a while. F-35 is to create the low-middle tier that's advanced and stealthy. These jets can operate anywhere without too much interference due to being stealthy.

2) To share with Partners the matured tech from F-22 but NOT share all sensitive tech from F 22. As it supersedes any jet in 4th or 5th gen out there. 

3) A common standard between NATO countries that will buy it and have partnered up to share the cost. That way, the US MIT will remain in business by supporting these jets to other nation. This will ALSO take many countries off different development platforms to one standardized NATO platform.


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## gambit

Ibr0kEmYrAz0r said:


> A-35, Really? Then what happens to those partner countries who bought the plane for their navies, but don't have air superiority fighter to cover your so-called "A-35"'s back? *they are screwed?* namely UK, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway, Denmark, etc. etc.
> 
> Don't say that USA will send F-15 to cover for its allies in every instance. Let's say UK's Royal Navy is at war with Argentina in South America again, so no Euro-fighter's cover, only carrier based F-35B, are you saying F-35B needs air cover? Then why the heck UK need these planes for?


In a manner of speaking -- yes.

This is where you failed to understand the issue of defense. Not every country can afford to have dedicated platforms. Back in the Cold War, an era I lived and served in the USAF when probably you were not even borned, the most feared aircraft was not the B-52 or the F-15 but the SR-71. Technologically speaking, it was inferior to the F-15 and -16 in many ways. Even its mighty engines, the J58, was not that advanced. But what its mission was, it performed extremely well, and to this day, no country could afford such an aircraft.

Not every country could afford the F-15 and -16 combination. Those who could not must make do with the -16, which is a formidable jack-of-all-trades adversary for anyone. We realize the expense of maintaining a diverse fleet of highly dedicated platforms a long time ago. Look at the US Navy for example. During the Cold War, an aircraft carrier can deploy with about five or six different aircrafts. Now we are down to two, three if we count the helo. The F-18 does everything, from fleet defense to air refuel to EW. Next is the AWACS E-2 Hawkeye. Can we say that the US Navy screwed itself?

The F-35 partners know exactly what they are getting into. If the word 'screwed' is to be used, it would be each who screwed himself because he could not afford anything more, not because the US did something nefarious to them.


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## Pak47

orangzaib said:


> 1) The F-35 isn't just to replace the F-16's. F-16's will remain here for a while. F-35 is to create the low-middle tier that's advanced and stealthy. These jets can operate anywhere without too much interference due to being stealthy.
> 
> 2) To share with Partners the matured tech from F-22 but NOT share all sensitive tech from F 22. As it supersedes any jet in 4th or 5th gen out there.
> 
> 3) A common standard between NATO countries that will buy it and have partnered up to share the cost. That way, the US MIT will remain in business by supporting these jets to other nation. This will ALSO take many countries off different development platforms to one standardized NATO platform.



The F-35 will replace the F-16, F/A-18, EA-6B, F-111, A-10, AV-8B, Harrier GR.7, Sea Harrier, AMX and Tornado. The F-35 can operate autonomously or alongside these 4th generation aircraft and the 5th generation F-22 Raptor as allies transition to 5th generation fighter fleets to enable coalition operations.

https://f35.com/the-f-35/faqs.aspx#faq3

I didn't say F16 will be the only platform replaced. Other points agreed.


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## kurutoga

Lol,

Bill Sweetman: F-35 sucks. I will prove my point by praising every other new jet fighter out there. 




Aeronaut said:


> China's New Stealth Fighter. Not a repeat from December 2010.
> 
> Some people didn't like it.


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## krash

TeriShirtDaButton said:


> Chinese hired soviet engineers and even MKI here is produced under license from Russia and india even rejected the chinese helicopter which they offered us  as backward tech
> 
> and after enjoying 50 yrs with U.S,you are bashing them.
> 
> Reason is smthing else...
> 
> Chinese are under weapons embargo from decades and there are not exposed to western tech so thhey have to go with local production in watever manner they can produce.
> 
> *so dont look at the shine of the toys..see wats in side it *



Whom better to judge what metal the Chinese weapons are made of than us? Western weapons; our bread and butter. You've only just tasted the candy, better not get too excited. When we acknowledge the Chinese weapons you should take our word for it. The rest of the world does.


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## Viper0011.

Pak47 said:


> The F-35 will replace the F-16, F/A-18, EA-6B, F-111, A-10, AV-8B, Harrier GR.7, Sea Harrier, AMX and Tornado. The F-35 can operate autonomously or alongside these 4th generation aircraft and the 5th generation F-22 Raptor as allies transition to 5th generation fighter fleets to enable coalition operations.
> 
> I didn't say F16 will be the only platform replaced. Other points agreed.



Yes, the F-35 WILL replace the platforms mentioned above. BUT, it's not a jet by jet replacement. It'll be how and what makes sense. The MAIN purpose is to standardize the whole fleet across NATO and still maintain the edge (F-22 just for the US). F-35 in theory will be cost effective so more countries can afford it. Plus, it does give very advance capability.


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## ptldM3

Audio said:


> Where is Martian and his "one piece canopy is imperative for stealth" rants? I'd love to see him explain this one
> 
> Other then that, it looks good.





Yes, he thrashed the pak-fa for a two piece canopy, he thrashed the pak-fa because it's temporary rear bays did not have serration, he thrashed the pak-fa because it had a so called 'gap' between the intakes. Funny now the J-31 has a two piece canopy, it does not appear to have serration in its rear bays, and it has a gap between the engines.

Before anyone even seen the J-31 Martian proclaimed it to be stealthier than the F-35 and if Im not mistaken F-22 as well. He than bashed the F-35 for being very cheap and not so stealthy ironically the J-31 bares an uncanny resemblance to the F-35.

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## tanlixiang28776

Thought I already cleared up the the topic of a two piece canopy being structurally necessary on a naval and carrier platform. 

Beating on a dead end argument won't help make you any more credible. China has already demonstrated one piece canopies and if the J 31 was meant for the air force it would have one due to the less stringent requirements.

Where do you even see the bays at such detail? 

The intakes on the J 31 appear to be flush just like on the J 20. No gaps.

Your own personal bias has you seeing things that are simply not there.


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## Esc8781

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Thought I already cleared up the the topic of a two piece canopy being structurally necessary on a naval and carrier platform.
> 
> Beating on a dead end argument won't help make you any more credible.


 I was just telling you that the F-35 uses a ONE PIECE canopy not a two!


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## tanlixiang28776

F 35 uses a 2 piece canopy

It has a bracing support unlike the one on the F 22











It may operate like a one piece but the effect on radar reflectivity is definitely different and hence the entire point


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## ptldM3

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Thought I already cleared up the the topic of a two piece canopy being structurally necessary on a naval and carrier platform.
> 
> Beating on a dead end argument won't help make you any more credible.






If your talking to to me you're talking to the wrong person. A two piece canopy offers some advantages over a once piece by offering weight savings, ease of manufacturing, less distortion, good bird strike protection, cost savings? 

The draw back, less visibility. And the RCS argument regarding the two piece canopy is silly, i have already explained as why it is so.


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## ptldM3

tanlixiang28776 said:


> F 35 uses a 2 piece canopy




One piece, what you see is an internal brace.


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## Esc8781

ptldM3 said:


> One piece, what you see is an internal brace.


 He probably have gotten confused with the X-35

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## tanlixiang28776

ptldM3 said:


> If your talking to to me you're talking to the wrong person. A two piece canopy offers some advantages over a once piece by offering weight savings, ease of manufacturing, less distortion, good bird strike protection, cost savings?
> 
> The draw back, less visibility. And the RCS argument regarding the two piece canopy is silly, i have already explained as why it is so.



China uses both in their due to their respective advantages. Two piece primarily for its naval bird protection, and 1 piece for air force visibility. 

A curved metal brace reflects radar. How much it affects RCS in total is the question. From a front on angle though that would be significant and less so from other angles. Appraising too much or to little to its effect on RCS has to do with personal agenda on this forum.

No one here actually has the 3d model for either design or a anechoic chamber to test it in.

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## ptldM3

tanlixiang28776 said:


> China uses both in their due to their respective advantages. Two piece primarily for its naval bird protection, and 1 piece for air force visibility.
> 
> A curved metal brace reflects radar. How much it affects RCS in total is the question. From a front on angle though that would be significant and less so from other angles. Appraising too much or to little to its effect on RCS has to do with personal agenda on this forum.





Technically a metal brace wouldn&#8217;t reflect any more than any other surface of an aircraft. It&#8217;s not the metal but the fact that there is a discontinuity, than again, an airbrake qualifies as a discontinuity, as does an access panel, internal refueling probe, weapons bay, bay door ect. 

Ever notice why the F-117 and B-2 has its frames positioned at an angle? There is a very good reason for it. The most important things to consider with a brace or any other surface that presents I discontinuity is how plush and tight it is, after that it would be the shape/angle.

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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

gambit said:


> In a manner of speaking -- yes.
> 
> This is where you failed to understand the issue of defense. Not every country can afford to have dedicated platforms. Back in the Cold War, an era I lived and served in the USAF when probably you were not even borned, the most feared aircraft was not the B-52 or the F-15 but the SR-71. Technologically speaking, it was inferior to the F-15 and -16 in many ways. Even its mighty engines, the J58, was not that advanced. But what its mission was, it performed extremely well, and to this day, no country could afford such an aircraft.



Stop trolling Gambit. It's you who failed to understand that it was one of your americans (or some korean who lives in USA) who said F-35 is basically A-35, needs protection from F-22 and F-15. I quoted his text to indicate F-35 is more than just a mere attack aircraft. You should explain that non-affordability of hi-lo combination to him.



> Not every country could afford the F-15 and -16 combination. Those who could not must make do with the -16, which is a formidable jack-of-all-trades adversary for anyone. We realize the expense of maintaining a diverse fleet of highly dedicated platforms a long time ago. Look at the US Navy for example. During the Cold War, an aircraft carrier can deploy with about five or six different aircrafts. Now we are down to two, three if we count the helo. The F-18 does everything, from fleet defense to air refuel to EW. Next is the AWACS E-2 Hawkeye. *Can we say that the US Navy screwed itself?*



Well, in a manner of speaking -- yes. 

US Navy 'screwed' itself back in the early '90s, and your politician 'screwed' it twice when your 'Dick' (Cheney) cut the whole program, by not giving any fundings to further develop F-14s, and destroying the tooling and machinery to construct F-14s; therefore no new Tomcats were built later, which led to increased maintenance cost for the old airframes. They also dropped the upgrade plans like Quickstrike, Tomcat 21, AST 21 and ASF-14, etc. in favour of F-18E/F which turned out to be more expensive. They abandoned a *fantastic* "cat" for a *mediocre* "bug". 

That leaves the future US navy operating missions with "A-35" as attack planes - which is suggested by one of your own americans (go on, convince him that it has more than an attack role, and deserve the "F" bit in F-35), and these "A-35" planes are protected by jack-of-all-trades-*master-of-none* "air-superiority" Fighter F/A-18.

They are indeed 'screwed' as they will probably be facing new threats such as J-15/J-31 Hi-Lo combo from the sea, and J-10/J-20 from land.



> The F-35 partners know exactly what they are getting into. If the word 'screwed' is to be used, it would be each who screwed himself because he could not afford anything more, not because the US did something nefarious to them.



Yes, I see from your sentence US allies 'screwed' themselves big-time by relying too much on US, and hoping US will not 'screwing-up'.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Sometime I just want to grab SAC desginer and make him answer to all your questions: why he did like this or like that, why not single or double canopy, why bird sign instead 8-1...why a gab between engines??

is SAc try to design a cheap stealth version...remember F-15 was too expensive in 1970, one of the reason that F-16 & F-17 were created, is for the same reason that J-31 was created? speculation and debate are fun...but we need more than 3 pictures to judge this aircraft.


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## gambit

Ibr0kEmYrAz0r said:


> Stop trolling Gambit. It's you who failed to understand that it was one of your americans (or some korean who lives in USA) who said F-35 is basically A-35, needs protection from F-22 and F-15. I quoted his text to indicate F-35 is more than just a mere attack aircraft. You should explain that non-affordability of hi-lo combination to him.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, in a manner of speaking -- yes.
> 
> US Navy 'screwed' itself back in the early '90s, and your politician 'screwed' it twice when your 'Dick' (Cheney) cut the whole program, by not giving any fundings to further develop F-14s, and destroying the tooling and machinery to construct F-14s; therefore no new Tomcats were built later, which led to increased maintenance cost for the old airframes. They also dropped the upgrade plans like Quickstrike, Tomcat 21, AST 21 and ASF-14, etc. in favour of F-18E/F which turned out to be more expensive. They abandoned a *fantastic* "cat" for a *mediocre* "bug".
> 
> That leaves the future US navy operating missions with "A-35" as attack planes - which is suggested by one of your own americans (go on, convince him that it has more than an attack role, and deserve the "F" bit in F-35), and these "A-35" planes are protected by jack-of-all-trades-*master-of-none* "air-superiority" Fighter F/A-18.
> 
> They are indeed 'screwed' as they will probably be facing new threats such as J-15/J-31 Hi-Lo combo from the sea, and J-10/J-20 from land.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I see from your sentence US allies 'screwed' themselves big-time by relying too much on US, and hoping US will not 'screwing-up'.


Now this is a troll post. Not worth responding.


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> A curved metal brace reflects radar.







The F-35 has a one-piece canopy. If the canopy reduces radar signal entry into the cockpit, that single canopy frame may not be a statistically significant contributor to total RCS.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> How much it affects RCS in total is the question.


It is the concept called 'threshold' that the Chinese members here seems to have a difficult time understanding.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> No one here actually has the 3d model for either design or a anechoic chamber to test it in.


But your friend does. He has full scale models of the J-20, F-22, and F-35 to eyeball, and his eyeballs are superior to any test equipments and facilities out there.

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## Viper0011.

Ibr0kEmYrAz0r said:


> Stop trolling Gambit. It's you who failed to understand that it was one of your americans (or some korean who lives in USA) who said F-35 is basically A-35, needs protection from F-22 and F-15. I quoted his text to indicate F-35 is more than just a mere attack aircraft. You should explain that non-affordability of hi-lo combination to him.
> 
> US Navy 'screwed' itself back in the early '90s, and your politician 'screwed' it twice when your 'Dick' (Cheney) cut the whole program, by not giving any fundings to further develop F-14s, and destroying the tooling and machinery to construct F-14s; therefore no new Tomcats were built later, which led to increased maintenance cost for the old airframes. They also dropped the upgrade plans like Quickstrike, Tomcat 21, AST 21 and ASF-14, etc. in favour of F-18E/F which turned out to be more expensive. They abandoned a *fantastic* "cat" for a *mediocre* "bug".
> 
> That leaves the future US navy operating missions with "A-35" as attack planes - which is suggested by one of your own americans (go on, convince him that it has more than an attack role, and deserve the "F" bit in F-35), and these "A-35" planes are protected by jack-of-all-trades-*master-of-none* "air-superiority" Fighter F/A-18.
> 
> They are indeed 'screwed' as they will probably be facing new threats such as J-15/J-31 Hi-Lo combo from the sea, and J-10/J-20 from land.
> 
> Yes, I see from your sentence US allies 'screwed' themselves big-time by relying too much on US, and hoping US will not 'screwing-up'.



No offense...I try to stay as neutral as I can but sometime you come across this crazy as* posts and you find yourself just scratching your head on how to respond.
Out of the book that you wrote here, I got two things out of it. 1: That USN apparently screwed itself over by going to F/A 18 from Tomcat. 2: The USN will be facing J-15 and J-31 and J-10 and J-20 from the mainland. 
Are you going to war with us? If that's the case, you may never get to see your J-10's or J-20's airborne as they may be taken out on the ground. I understand that it'll be a massive war and both the countries are big. BUT....you conveniently forgot that US does the military better than ANYONE ELSE on the planet. 
You also conveniently forgot F-15's, F/A 18's, F-16's, B1's, B2's, F117's, F-22's, Navy's Stealth Drones, and then F-35 (not procured in numbers yet).....there are layers of different types of aircraft for all purposes that you'll have to encounter vs. just using a hi lo of J-10, J-20 and J-15, J-31. 
I am not trying to put a light under this threads as*. I am just explaining. Your post doesn't make any sense. The USN has ALWAYS met it's objectives successfully. F/A 18 until recently and outside of Stealthy fighters had the most advanced tech. The same or similar advanced tech was retro-fitted to F-15's and F-16's. So I am not sure what your point was that you were trying to post......may want to gather your thoughts and actually make a point next time!

And the F-35 DOES use the single canopy. I'll try to post a picture if Gambit hasn't already somewhere.


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## Beast

orangzaib said:


> No offense...I try to stay as neutral as I can but sometime you come across this crazy as* posts and you find yourself just scratching your head on how to respond.
> Out of the book that you wrote here, I got two things out of it. 1: That USN apparently screwed itself over by going to F/A 18 from Tomcat. 2: The USN will be facing J-15 and J-31 and J-10 and J-20 from the mainland.
> Are you going to war with us? If that's the case, you may never get to see your J-10's or J-20's airborne as they may be taken out on the ground. I understand that it'll be a massive war and both the countries are big. BUT....you conveniently forgot that US does the military better than ANYONE ELSE on the planet.
> You also conveniently forgot F-15's, F/A 18's, F-16's, B1's, B2's, F117's, F-22's, Navy's Stealth Drones, and then F-35 (not procured in numbers yet).....there are layers of different types of aircraft for all purposes that you'll have to encounter vs. just using a hi lo of J-10, J-20 and J-15, J-31.
> I am not trying to put a light under this threads as*. I am just explaining. Your post doesn't make any sense. The USN has ALWAYS met it's objectives successfully. F/A 18 until recently and outside of Stealthy fighters had the most advanced tech. The same or similar advanced tech was retro-fitted to F-15's and F-16's. So I am not sure what your point was that you were trying to post......may want to gather your thoughts and actually make a point next time!
> 
> And the F-35 DOES use the single canopy. I'll try to post a picture if Gambit hasn't already somewhere.



US does war better than anybody else? Didn't just a few Taliban cave man use simple machine and RPG Taken out the harrier on the ground? Lol..

J-10 and J-20 will never airborne and taken care easily? Lol.. U think china is Iraq? U are talking a country who has GPS, anti satelite ability. China and US are only both the countries who conduct ABM in outside atmosphere. Not even Russia done it yet.
I think u must have play too many American cowboy games...


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## conworldus

orangzaib said:


> No offense...I try to stay as neutral as I can but sometime you come across this crazy as* posts and you find yourself just scratching your head on how to respond.
> Out of the book that you wrote here, I got two things out of it. 1: That USN apparently screwed itself over by going to F/A 18 from Tomcat. 2: The USN will be facing J-15 and J-31 and J-10 and J-20 from the mainland.
> Are you going to war with us? If that's the case, you may never get to see your J-10's or J-20's airborne as they may be taken out on the ground. I understand that it'll be a massive war and both the countries are big. BUT....you conveniently forgot that US does the military better than ANYONE ELSE on the planet.
> You also conveniently forgot F-15's, F/A 18's, F-16's, B1's, B2's, F117's, F-22's, Navy's Stealth Drones, and then F-35 (not procured in numbers yet).....there are layers of different types of aircraft for all purposes that you'll have to encounter vs. just using a hi lo of J-10, J-20 and J-15, J-31.
> I am not trying to put a light under this threads as*. I am just explaining. Your post doesn't make any sense. The USN has ALWAYS met it's objectives successfully. F/A 18 until recently and outside of Stealthy fighters had the most advanced tech. The same or similar advanced tech was retro-fitted to F-15's and F-16's. So I am not sure what your point was that you were trying to post......may want to gather your thoughts and actually make a point next time!
> 
> And the F-35 DOES use the single canopy. I'll try to post a picture if Gambit hasn't already somewhere.



Err I think the plane to plane matching is quite valid. The chest thumping is unnecessary. If you talk about an all out war, it is also quite possible that none of the US aircraft will be able to airborne before they get destroyed, either. Remember China is in a peace time economy where the defense production capability is limited at 15% of its max potential. A result of such war will sure go nuclear and can only be mutual destruction of both countries, which means the US Navy will be obliterated along with everything else. Please stay on topic next time.


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## pluto

whatever, i can see china is making progress.
with great power, comes great responsibility. 
now, China has to take the responsibility again to fight Nazi Japan for Asia. grasp the chance to solve it for good.
no one will abuse china for what weapon they will be using, like U.S Nuke japan during WWII. it's fine.


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## EagleEyes




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## Beast

Can we have new angle? It's always the angle and the same man inside the plane....zzzz

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## S10

People are still debate about that cockpit glass? The insiders have already stated there will be changes when the 3rd prototype rolls out. Prototype 1 and 2 are for basic and advanced flight testing, while 3rd is for avionics and new engine.

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## 帅的一匹

We could build one peice canopy any time we want, reference to J-20. You are talking nonsense bullshit seriously derail the thread, make all other member confused. Thank you Mr Gambit for your expected contribution in Chinese section.


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## marshall

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> Already trashing the thread, starting with the fighters name.



I'm gone for the whole summer and one of the first things I read is the aforementioned nonsense which incredibly is still going on! LOL My vote would be to call it the "Peng". Very nice surprise after a long vacation.


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## marshall

S10 said:


> People are still debate about that cockpit glass? The insiders have already stated there will be changes when the 3rd prototype rolls out. Prototype 1 and 2 are for basic and advanced flight testing, while 3rd is for avionics and new engine.


Where did this supposed insider information come from exactly? I often hear of such "insider" information and 99.8% of the time, it's repeated from rumours spread by certain Chinese bbses, which are usually simply personal speculations.


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## grey boy 2

J-31 updates


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## Kompromat




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## Hyperion

Buddy, look at the image below. Why does the front landing gear look like it's suspended in air? 

Or is the shadow confusing me? 




grey boy 2 said:


>


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## Kompromat

*Must read*

Double Vision: Making Sense of China's Second 'Stealth' Fighter Prototype - China Real Time Report - WSJ

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## Kompromat

Hyperion said:


> Buddy, look at the image below. Why does the front landing gear look like it's suspended in air?
> 
> Or is the shadow confusing me?



Shadow, low quality photo.

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## grey boy 2

J-31 updates

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## DANGER-ZONE

Eeee ... Engine is RD-93.
So that is why China imported too many of RD-93's. 

BTW Congrats China .... Good Going


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## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> Eeee ... Engine is RD-93.
> So that is why China imported too many of RD-93's.
> 
> BTW Congrats China .... Good Going



My dear, this may be just a test bed for the aircraft, you can't test an engine under development in a similar case aircraft.


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## DANGER-ZONE




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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> My dear, this may be just a test bed for the aircraft, you can't test an engine under development in a similar case aircraft.



The bluish Plates of Engine nozzle, Just like we have on JF-17. I spotted it very first time, when i saw J-31's clear picture.






besides its also reported at China's New Stealth Fighter. Not a repeat from December 2010.. 
They might change it with Chinese engines later on, just like they did with J-20 that first flew with Russian engines & later fitted with Chinese one. 
But I am damn sure it is RD-93. 
Just let it fly, if it left smoke trials then its RD-93 if not then a Chinese one.


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## milvipes

I'll make several assumptions:
Given the engine thrust class (8~9 kN), it should be smaller & likely cheaper than J-20. If Pakistan is ever to acquire a stealth fighter, this should be it, not the $100+ million J-20. 
The robust landing gears suggest naval applications. I wouldn't be surprised if China makes all aircrafts of this type carrier-capable to reduce R&D & logistic cost (much like F/A-18 is widely used by non-naval air arms).
It's capability can give us a good clue on China's future naval build-up, & by extension, China's foreign policy.

&#40536; means trained falcon in Chinese.


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## Viper0011.

Beast said:


> US does war better than anybody else? Didn't just a few Taliban cave man use simple machine and RPG Taken out the harrier on the ground? Lol..
> 
> J-10 and J-20 will never airborne and taken care easily? Lol.. U think china is Iraq? U are talking a country who has GPS, anti satelite ability. China and US are only both the countries who conduct ABM in outside atmosphere. Not even Russia done it yet. I think u must have play too many American cowboy games...



I wasn't being mythical here. I actually meant everything I said. There is no way that China over the next 20 year or after will try to confront the US directly. It's a loss loss situation. Yes, I am aware of China being a big power and I am writing this with respect, not typical arrogance that you might see from some of my countrymen.

But having that said, reality is reality. ASAT weapons don't win the war. Look at the gap just between both the Navys. Just for a second, if both of these countries EVER get into confrontation, how much mass of ships can the US produce within a few weeks by Taiwan & Japan compared to China? These are two fronts that the Chinese Navy has to divide. Then, imagine the air power combined USN and USAF.... AGAIN, NOT trying to tick off anyone or play cowboy....just stating the facts. USN is the ONLY blue water navy and you can't challenge that.

As far as some men with RPG's scoring a base....well that's the cost of war my man. These things will happen. The soldiers there are humans and can make mistakes. We haven't deployed Robotic soldiers yet. I think they are under testing right now


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## Korean

milvipes said:


> I'll make several assumptions:
> Given the engine thrust class (8~9 kN), it should be smaller & likely cheaper than J-20.


And as sluggish as the F-35, and a lower range because two engines take up more space and leave less space for fuel.

The difference between this and J-20 is going to be similar to the difference between Fulcrum and Flanker, two very similar looking jets different in size. While the larger Flanker went onto become one of the most successful jet fighters in terms of export, the Fulcrum failed because it didn't have the range for a satisfactory role.


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## Esc8781

Korean said:


> And as sluggish as the F-35, and a lower range because two engines take up more space and leave less space for fuel.
> 
> The difference between this and J-20 is going to be similar to the difference between Fulcrum and Flanker, two very similar looking jets different in size. While the larger Flanker went onto become one of the most successful jet fighters in terms of export, the Fulcrum failed because it didn't have the range for a satisfactory role.


 Actually the F-35 were running away from the f-16 on military power, the F-16 had to keep up with their afterburner.


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## manqiangrexue

Korean said:


> And as sluggish as the F-35, and a lower range because two engines take up more space and leave less space for fuel.
> 
> The difference between this and J-20 is going to be similar to the difference between Fulcrum and Flanker, two very similar looking jets different in size. While the larger Flanker went onto become one of the most successful jet fighters in terms of export, the Fulcrum failed because it didn't have the range for a satisfactory role.



Oh, man Korean is just too smart. He's like the smartest person in the world! You have hundreds of Chinese engineers working on this project (who more than probably know about the MiG-29 and Su-27) and Korean's just like, "Nope, totally futile. I know more than all of you put together and I can see 20 years into the future with 100% confidence!" LOL

Seriously, I see lots of aerodynamic improvements to this machine. I see it as merging a lot of the airframe designs of the F-22 to complement the faults of the F-35. This, in my opinion, is the F-35 done right. No need for the giant vertical fan in the chest opens up a myriad of improvement opportunities for fuel capacity, weapons bay design, etc... If anything, I think it will serve along the J-20 as successfully as the F-16 alongside the F-15. That's what I think at the moment, but if the PLAN/ PLAAF decides to reject the aircraft for development into a Chinese platform, then I'd be wrong. 

Korean, if you're half as much of a hot-shot as you think you are, you should work on the KFX in Korea. If they don't take you, then maybe consider that someone else out there, say, the actual designers of stealth jets, may know better than you. It's a possibility.

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## amalakas

Esc8781 said:


> Actually the F-35 were running away from the f-16 on military power, the F-16 had to keep up with their afterburner.



I find that hard to believe, the F-16 on afterburner is hitting supersonic speed quite fast. The F-35 does not have supercruise which is mach without afterburner. Unless you speak about acceleration.


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Oh, man Korean is just too smart. He's like the smartest person in the world! You have hundreds of Chinese engineers working on this project (who more than probably know about the MiG-29 and Su-27) and Korean's just like, "Nope, totally futile. I know more than all of you put together and I can see 20 years into the future with 100% confidence!" LOL
> 
> *Seriously, I see lots of aerodynamic improvements to this machine.* I see it as merging a lot of the airframe designs of the F-22 to complement the faults of the F-35. This, in my opinion, is the F-35 done right. No need for the giant vertical fan in the chest opens up a myriad of improvement opportunities for fuel capacity, weapons bay design, etc... If anything, I think it will serve along the J-20 as successfully as the F-16 alongside the F-15. That's what I think at the moment, but if the PLAN/ PLAAF decides to reject the aircraft for development into a Chinese platform, then I'd be wrong.
> 
> Korean, if you're half as much of a hot-shot as you think you are, you should work on the KFX in Korea. If they don't take you, then maybe consider that someone else out there, say, the actual designers of stealth jets, may know better than you. It's a possibility.


So you deride him and put yourself in his place -- expert -- in one post.


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## tanlixiang28776

gambit said:


> So you deride him and put yourself in his place -- expert -- in one post.



And you support one over the other based purely on their nationality. Makes you the better man right?


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> *And you support one over the other based purely on their nationality.* Makes you the better man right?


Prove it. I challenged everyone. I criticized our Korean member on what he said as 'flaws' and 'defects' on the F-35 in this discussion. I challenged Russian and Indian claims on the PAK in past discussions elsewhere. Whereas all you Chinese boys tripped over each other in 'Thank' for posts that have no technical merits whatsoever.


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## Esc8781

amalakas said:


> I find that hard to believe, the F-16 on afterburner is hitting supersonic speed quite fast. The F-35 does not have supercruise which is mach without afterburner. Unless you speak about acceleration.


 Hold on I am digging through the unclassified F-35 Flight tests  may take a while.


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## tanlixiang28776

gambit said:


> Prove it. I challenged everyone. I criticized our Korean member on what he said as 'flaws' and 'defects' on the F-35 in this discussion. I challenged Russian and Indian claims on the PAK. Whereas all you Chinese boys tripped over each other in 'Thank' for posts that have no technical merits whatsoever.



Heres the problem. When you challenge non Chinese its on technical details with a thoughtful and straight up answer. When its Chinese you use one liners and use racial bias that such as "all you Chinese boys tripped over each other in 'Thank' for posts that have no technical merits whatsoever". Ironic thing is I don't thank anyone. 

You like it when I add Vietnamese boys tripping over each other with their agent orange addled minds quoting the same google pics and articles dozens of times? Sad that your actually intelligent compared to the other Vietnamese here. Thats not even a compliment if you've seen the others.

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## Esc8781

amalakas said:


> I find that hard to believe, the F-16 on afterburner is hitting supersonic speed quite fast. The F-35 does not have supercruise which is mach without afterburner. Unless you speak about acceleration.


 Found one acceptable source. 

JSF Jocks 

But I fear the engine Bypass is too big though 
I think that the f-16s has a faster acceleration though. 

IF you prove me wrong though I will listen and learn.


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## amalakas

Esc8781 said:


> Found one acceptable source.
> 
> JSF Jocks
> 
> But I fear the engine Bypass is too big though





I read it thanks. I think he is talking about acceleration though. At least that is what I gather.

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## Esc8781

amalakas said:


> I read it thanks. I think he is talking about acceleration though. At least that is what I gather.


 I've got to learn about cfd models though currently I am getting sources of the f-16 I think. 

I saw this also http://www.checksix-fr.com/downloads/falcon4/Topolo/zip/H-F-F-M-manual.pdf


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## manqiangrexue

gambit said:


> So you deride him and put yourself in his place -- expert -- in one post.



No, Gambit, I didn't throw a bunch of scientific crap out there that I don't know. I based my idea on that it looks like a fusion between F-22 and F-35 and we all "know" F-22 is aerodynamically superior to the F-35. I'm also basing it on the reasoning that since the Chinese have the F-35 plans, they could have copied it very very closely or exactly, but chose to modify it. You know it's not a copyright issue cus the Chinese don't care how pissed people get. They copied the Flanker exactly and just didn't care what Russia had to say. But they changed this design from the F-35 (not too much the front portion but the side-view is significantly different from the F-35 and more closely resembles the F-22), and as common sense dictates, you wouldn't change something to make it worse, only to make it better. Using logic, not crazy complicated physics principles that I'm sure the designers know much better than me and you.


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Heres the problem. When you challenge non Chinese its on technical details with a thoughtful and straight up answer.


Because most of them have no problems being challenged. Most, not all. They realized that based upon the manner that I challenged their claims and/or perceptions, which I presented logically and with impeccable sources, I may know what I am talking about. In return, they treated me with reasonable respect.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> When its Chinese you use one liners and use racial bias that such as "all you Chinese boys tripped over each other in 'Thank' for posts that have no technical merits whatsoever".


Because you Chinese boys proved to be what you are: Juvenile delinquents. You cannot stand being challenged and when you (not *YOU*) were challenged, you behaved like juvenile delinquents. You earned my hostility.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> Ironic thing is I don't thank anyone.


This is not just about you but the lot of you.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> You like it when I add Vietnamese boys tripping over each other with their agent orange addled minds quoting the same google pics and articles dozens of times?


I am here as an American. When you used 'Agent Orange' you insult the Viets who are here for Viet Nam, not me.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> Sad that your actually intelligent...


My motorcycle give me more of an intellectual challenge than all the Chinese members here -- *COMBINED*.



manqiangrexue said:


> No, Gambit, I didn't throw a bunch of scientific crap out there that I don't know. I based my idea on that it looks like a fusion between F-22 and F-35 and we all "know" F-22 is aerodynamically superior to the F-35. I'm also basing it on the reasoning that since the Chinese have the F-35 plans, they could have copied it very very closely or exactly, but chose to modify it. You know it's not a copyright issue cus the Chinese don't care how pissed people get. They copied the Flanker exactly and just didn't care what Russia had to say. But they changed this design from the F-35 (not too much the front portion but the side-view is significantly different from the F-35 and more closely resembles the F-22), and as common sense dictates, *you wouldn't change something to make it worse, only to make it better.* Using logic, not crazy complicated physics principles that I'm sure the designers know much better than me and you.


If you concede that one should not make assumptions based upon ignorance and no experience, then what I highlighted you should not assume, either.

In designing an aircraft, its aerodynamics are tightly dependent upon the available propulsion technology. So at face value, yes, you would change to improve, but in aviation, if you do not have engine to match what you copied, your design will fail.


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## manqiangrexue

Well, if you don't assume ANYTHING, it's quite impossible to have any kind of conversation at all. You're assuming it's not photoshop. You're assuming the engines aren't next generation engines that look like RD-93 but produce 400kN each. You have to make reasonable assumptions. Assuming that you change something to make it better is completely reasonable. 

And everyone's sick of you acting like you know it all. It's possible you know more than the other people here (or not), but quite frankly, that's not saying a lot because no one here knows nearly enough to slam a professional design like the PAK FA, F-35, J-20, Raptor, this thing, etc... If you were good enough to give it constructive criticism, you'd be working on a jet, not go off on some forum. The people who designed a stealth fighter a specific way did it for a reason, and if you took 1 look and thought it was completely stupid, it's probably because you know so little about that airplane you couldn't begin to comprehend the issues taken into consideration. You don't know jack squat. Keep your radar-deflecting diagrams and garbage to yourself. Or take it to Shenyang and show them that and some Chinese uber nerd will throw in your face a 200 page equation just for calculating the shape of the seat and then you'll know how much you don't know. 

I'm here to see new pics of the thing and to hear factual news (it took off today, things like that) and not how people who don't know jack squat but think they're among the top 10 geniuses in the world rant about what they think they understand about designing stealth jets. You think you're issuing a challenge and other people are failing to meet your standards? Yeah, everybody on the internet thinks that way. You think other people are delinquents? They all think you're a delinquent. Welcome to the internet. You're trolling just like everyone else except you troll with bs diagrams and pretend to know things.

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## qwerrty

Korean said:


> And as sluggish as the F-35, and a lower range because two engines take up more space and leave less space for fuel.
> .





kfx


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## hurt

Imran Khan said:


> china you confusing us damn which one we buy now so many choices



choice some what you need


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Well, if you don't assume ANYTHING, it's quite impossible to have any kind of conversation at all.


There is nothing wrong with making assumptions. It is only wrong if you believe you are correct, worse when you have been proven wrong.



manqiangrexue said:


> You're assuming it's not photoshop. You're assuming the engines aren't next generation engines that look like RD-93 but produce 400kN each. You have to make reasonable assumptions. Assuming that you change something to make it better is completely reasonable.


I have always advised one thing to everyone, the Chinese members include and especially so: Wait for something more definitive. You cannot and should not make assumptions when all you have are speculative drawings. That is what I have been saying all along.



manqiangrexue said:


> And everyone's sick of you acting like you know it all.


Anyone is free to prove me wrong. The problem here is that I usually provide impeccable sources to support my arguments and key words for anyone to do their own research. To date, no one returned and proved to everyone I lied or misled the readers. So please do not use that word 'everyone'. You do not know enough.



manqiangrexue said:


> It's possible you know more than the other people here (or not), but quite frankly, that's not saying a lot because no one here knows nearly enough to slam a professional design like the PAK FA, F-35, J-20, Raptor, this thing, etc... *If you were good enough to give it constructive criticism, you'd be working on a jet, not go off on some forum.*


I have nearly twenty years in aviation, in and out of the military and I left aviation out of personal necessities, not because I lost interested in it. My experience enabled me to give the interested laymen the correct direction for which for anyone to do his own research. Much more than the Chinese members here can say for their own arguments.



manqiangrexue said:


> The people who designed a stealth fighter a specific way did it for a reason, and if you took 1 look and thought it was completely stupid,...


Show me which post that I said it was stupid.



manqiangrexue said:


> ...it's probably because you know so little about that airplane you couldn't begin to comprehend the issues taken into consideration. You don't know jack squat. Keep your radar-deflecting diagrams and garbage to yourself. Or take it to Shenyang and show them that and some Chinese uber nerd will throw in your face a 200 page equation just for calculating the shape of the seat and then you'll know how much you don't know.


Funny that you would lecture me this way when one of your fellow Chinese boasted how much views he has on his Youtube video and how the F-35 is inferior to the J-20. Why not pose the same lecture to him and challenge him to post his arguments to Lockheed? The ironic part is that I have far more respect for the Chinese engineers than you boys do than to call the J-20 the slurs your man have for the F-35.

I take it my illustrations went whooooosh over your head? Sorry, but I cannot dumb them down any further.



manqiangrexue said:


> I'm here to see new pics of the thing and to hear factual news (it took off today, things like that) and not how people who don't know jack squat but think they're among the top 10 geniuses in the world rant about what they think they understand about designing stealth jets. You think you're issuing a challenge and other people are failing to meet your standards? Yeah, everybody on the internet thinks that way. You think other people are delinquents? They all think you're a delinquent. Welcome to the internet. You're trolling just like everyone else except *you troll with bs diagrams and pretend to know things.*


Then all you have to do is prove me wrong. Keep in mind that my arguments usually come with impeccable sources and filled with keywords for you to do your own research.

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## manqiangrexue

Gambit, I am not responsible for answering to any video any other Chinese person posted about any fighter being superior to another. 20 years in aviation! Wow, makes you the guru, NOT. Truck drivers who have driven trucks for 40, 50+ years have no idea how to design a next generation automobile. The only people who I think are fit to be critical of stealth fighters are the actual designers of stealth fighters. 

Gambit, your diagrams are probably right. Nobody will prove them wrong and nobody needs to but it's still complete BS. Why? Because you put this cartoon fit for a college club meeting of airplane enthusiasts up and you talk like this is all you need to design stealth jets. You follow this, success. You don't go by it, fail. If it were as simple as your googled diagram, Morocco would be flying stealth jets. You think the diagram is too complex and I can't understand? It's a cartoon a 5th grader can understand. If it were sufficient, we'd all be experts. Your diagrams are so simple and so superficial that the janitors at Shenyang know more. But to actually design a stealth fighter, you need to know so much more stuff, more rules, rules that override rules, exceptions, ways to get around things, etc... Frankly, a fighter could break all of the rules on your diagrams and end up still stealthy, why? Cus the designers have used more techniques for stealth preservation in the creation of this (and any) fighter than you could ever understand or even knew existed.

And no, I did not see you call any fighter stupid, but Korean did. And you slammed me for slamming him, so I just assumed (reasonably) that you agreed with his criticisms of the jet. Difference between me and him is that my conclusions come from common logic, and although they are not fool-proof, they are reasonable enough to make with a relatively low chance of being incorrect (in my opinion) while his conclusions come from what he thinks he knows about the advanced designs of stealth jets (that apparently, the designers don't).

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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit, I am not responsible for answering to any video any other Chinese person posted about any fighter being superior to another.


Responsible? Now that is the cowardly way out of putting the same medicine to a fellow Chinese. 

No one said anything about being 'responsible' for someone else's actions. You have a different definition of the word than the rest of us do. But I guess being fair take second to racial solidarity and intellectual honesty.



manqiangrexue said:


> 20 years in aviation! Wow, makes you the guru, NOT. Truck drivers who have driven trucks for 40, 50+ years have no idea how to design a next generation automobile. The only people who I think are fit to be critical of stealth fighters are the actual designers of stealth fighters.


It make the truck driver more knowledgeable than you about trucks. Delicious irony that in one post you defend making assumptions based upon ignorance, but in another post you deride *ANY* knowledge relevant to the field.



manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit, your diagrams are probably right.


Not 'probably'. They are.



manqiangrexue said:


> Nobody will prove them wrong and nobody needs to but it's still complete BS. Why? Because you put this cartoon fit for a college club meeting of airplane enthusiasts up and you talk like this is all you need to design stealth jets. You follow this, success. You don't go by it, fail. *If it were as simple as your googled diagram, Morocco would be flying stealth jets. You think the diagram is too complex and I can't understand? It's a cartoon a 5th grader can understand. If it were sufficient, we'd all be experts.* Your diagrams are so simple and so superficial that the janitors at Shenyang know more.


This is where you are wrong. I do not post those illustrations for any specific aircraft. Those are for *FOUNDATIONAL* principles that everyone learned, usually on the job, in aviation engineering.



manqiangrexue said:


> But to actually design a stealth fighter, you need to know so much more stuff, more rules, rules that override rules, exceptions, ways to get around things, etc... Frankly, a fighter could break all of the rules on your diagrams and end up still stealthy, why? Cus the designers have used more techniques for stealth preservation in the creation of this (and any) fighter than you could ever understand or even knew existed.


And heeeeeeere we go...into the realm of 'Chinese physics'. Just as I expected. 



manqiangrexue said:


> And no, I did not see you call any fighter stupid, but Korean did. And you slammed me for slamming him, so I just assumed (reasonably) that you agreed with his criticisms of the jet. Difference between me and him is that my conclusions come from common logic, and although they are not fool-proof, they are reasonable enough to make with a relatively low chance of being incorrect (in my opinion) while his conclusions come from what he thinks he knows about the advanced designs of stealth jets (that apparently, the designers don't).


Your 'conclusions' are no different than speculations based upon ignorance.


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## S10

Is gambit claiming to be some super commando again? I didn't bother reading through all that crap you people posted in the last 15 pages.


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## gambit

S10 said:


> *Is gambit claiming to be some super commando again?* I didn't bother reading through all that crap you people posted in the last 15 pages.


Only against 'Chinese physics'.


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## theniubt

gambit said:


> Only against '*Chinese physics*'.



Which is something that Vietnam is jealous about, and wished they could learn at least 1% of it.


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## 帅的一匹

Gambit should help Vietnam air force buid a Stealth jets instead of wasting his precious time here.

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## manqiangrexue

Gambit, the truck driver may know more than me, but I know he doesn't know enough to tell me how the next Lamborghini should be designed. Understand this: just because you flew jets for 20 years doesn't mean you know how to design a stealth fighter. You may know more than the layman, but you still don't know anything compared to people who design these things and you don't know enough to explain them accurately. 

I understand your concept of "Chinese physics" now. It means physics that are too complicated for you to understand. Any physics beyond your basic principles cartoon is considered "Chinese physics" by you. If you didn't learn it, it's considered Chinese.

Your founding principles google cartoon is trash. You heard it at orientation, googled up a pic, and thought this is the bible to making stealth jets. In all classes, we learn founding principles on the first day. If it was the third grade, those principles stood till the last day. In college, we learned exceptions as the class progressed. In a PhD level course, by the end of the course, the founding principles were shot so full of holes you'd fail the final for sure if you stuck by them because every test question was on how to solve an exception to the rule. The more complex, the less you can simply apply "founding principles" and you bring your google cartoon to discuss stealth jets like you know how things work. "Chinese physics" is all the exceptions and bypasses to your "founding principles".

Dude, I never saw the J-10 to F-35 video and even if I did see the title, I'd never click on it because I know the "vs." things by forum addicts are basically worth toenail clippings in terms of their ability to predict a real outcome. The jet you think would win is most highly probably the one your country made, no matter where you're from. (Iran: Our bootleg F-5 with 2 vertical stabilizers would totally kill the Raptor because this:..... LOL) Don't know why you brought it up at all, because a Chinese person once said it?

My points: 
1. J-31 seems to look like a F-22/F-35 hybrid so it probably incorporates the best of both, because it doesn't make sense to incorporate the worst of both. 
2. Change in design usually reflects improvement.
3. I might be wrong; the true indicator of the jet's performance (other than war, of course) is whether or not the PLAN and PLAAF choose to buy it.

Korean's points:
1. It's not flat enough to be a maneuverable fighter. (Oh, really! Someone quickly tell Shenyang to flatten it, cus they didn't know that!)
2. The nose/cockpit/air intakes look like F-35 so it's sluggish. (Sure, no need to compare wings, stabilizers or anything, cus those don't matter in terms of maneuvering the jet.)
3. It must have low range because it has 2 engines and is roughly similarly sized to the F-35. (Sure, all engines are exactly the same in terms of fuel consumption. Also, the space that held a VTOL fan in the F-35 is probably filled with foam and bubble wrap in the Chinese version. Couldn't possibly be used for extra fuel or weapons bays.)
4. The Chinese probably stole the F-35 design, didn't analyze it despite massive criticism, and copied it with all its flaws. (Yeah, sounds like a good plan to me, must sound like a great plan to military scientists; let's do that.)

Instead of slamming other people's stealth fighters with analyses that has more holes in it than Swiss cheese after a shoot-out with Al Pacino (probably not as clever a joke as I thought LOL), Korean should be praying (or working on it, if he's that great) that the KFX gets off paper in the next decade.

If you think my arguments and Korean's arguments are the same in terms of assumptions, then it's pretty clear why you relegated from Air Force to internet forums.

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## Korean

manqiangrexue said:


> Korean's points:
> 1. It's not flat enough to be a maneuverable fighter. (Oh, really! Someone quickly tell Shenyang to flatten it, cus they didn't know that!)


To be maneuverable, a fighter jet must have low drag in the fuselage and wings. F-35 is a high drag design because of its SVTOL requirement that forced Lockheed to arrange things sideways, and this F-35 replica too is a high drag design because it is based on F-35 design plans stolen from Lockheed and BAE back in 2008.

The key to lower drag is reducing the frontal area, and a flattened fuselage achieves it while providing additional lift.


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## manqiangrexue

Sounds good. You seem to know more than everybody. If someone in Shenyang read this and said, "Comrades, I heard from a Korean American forum blogger that we need to flatten the body. He explained it very well and we never thought about that. Let's do it!" and they end up with a better stealth design, I guess you'd be doing 20-life for giving away military secrets, huh? LOL 

I'll say this again. No one here knows enough to slam a professional design because if you were that good, you'd be designing a jet instead of bsing on a forum. If you see a flaw that can be easily fixed on a professional design, chances are NOT that you saw it but 1,000 engineers didn't; chances are they know way better than you and they know why they didn't do it your way. The confidence that some people have in their "knowledge" of advanced physics and aerodynamics is amazing.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Korean

manqiangrexue said:


> If someone in Shenyang read this and said, "Comrades, I heard from a Korean American forum blogger that we need to flatten the body.


The Shenyang supervisor would say "We can't, we don't have money and time to design a new airframe. So just produce that damned F-35 drawings that we have".

Just look at Chengdu, J-10 struggled for like 20 years and J-20 already spent like 10 years in development and 7 more years to go. That's what it takes to design a new jet.


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## April.lyrics

leave that korean.he is try to make this thread ruined.just ignore him.


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## Beast

Hooray! Korean is banned...


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## Kompromat

Anymore photos, people?


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## Beast

Aeronaut said:


> Anymore photos, people?



No, its always the same angle photo showing. Probably the wall climber got caught and nobody dare to post new photo.


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## manqiangrexue

Korean said:


> The Shenyang supervisor would say "We can't, we don't have money and time to design a new airframe. So just produce that damned F-35 drawings that we have".
> 
> Just look at Chengdu, J-10 struggled for like 20 years and J-20 already spent like 10 years in development and 7 more years to go. That's what it takes to design a new jet.



Haha, you don't think you are underestimating someone, perhaps? These are the people who built the Sino-Flanker. They knew way before they got their hands on the F-35 drawings what a flat design like the PAK FA could achieve. They modified much of the plane body as you can see from the side-shot. You think it's just too hard from them to flatten the body a bit while they were at it? It's still a prototype and airframes change. If they wanted to, they could flatten the body in future prototypes (pre-production). 

If you are just stuck thinking the Chinese don't have the time, money, and foresight (or current initiative, for that matter) to flatten a jet body (which could be the deal-maker or deal-breaker when the PLAAF and PLAN evaluate it), then I guess you just don't know the Chinese. It's not just the Chinese; I don't think anyone capable of working on a serious design of any kind has the type of incompetence you describe.

J-20 has 7 more years to go? Haha, wait and see. You eat out of your toilet if it enters service before 2019, how's that for a bet?


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## Beast

manqiangrexue said:


> Haha, you don't think you are underestimating someone, perhaps? These are the people who built the Sino-Flanker. They knew way before they got their hands on the F-35 drawings what a flat design like the PAK FA could achieve. They modified much of the plane body as you can see from the side-shot. You think it's just too hard from them to flatten the body a bit while they were at it? It's still a prototype and airframes change. If they wanted to, they could flatten the body in future prototypes (pre-production).
> 
> If you are just stuck thinking the Chinese don't have the time, money, and foresight (or current initiative, for that matter) to flatten a jet body (which could be the deal-maker or deal-breaker when the PLAAF and PLAN evaluate it), then I guess you just don't know the Chinese. It's not just the Chinese; I don't think anyone capable of working on a serious design of any kind has the type of incompetence you describe.
> 
> J-20 has 7 more years to go? Haha, wait and see. You eat out of your toilet if it enters service before 2019, how's that for a bet?



 korean is banned. I help him to answer. 'Yes, you are correct! I am so wrong '


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## amalakas

Look, the main issue here is unfounded claims and arrogance. 

China until recently was simply copying aircraft designs (no pun intended here). 

In an apparent leap in capability China is now testing one 5th generation aircraft and possibly a second one too. 

That is obviously something that we need to examine from all sides. 

My personal opinion is put very well by what the legendary "kelly" Johnson once said. 

"If it looks good, it flies good". This is a very simplistic approach but like it and I think I see what he meant. 

well, coming from that, I can tell you that the latest plane looks ..good. The J-20, not so much. 

my 2c


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## Water Car Engineer

I like this a lot more than the J-20. It'll probably be a month or 2 to get clear images.


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit, *the truck driver may know more than me, but I know he doesn't know enough to tell me how the next Lamborghini should be designed.* Understand this: just because you flew jets for 20 years doesn't mean you know how to design a stealth fighter. You may know more than the layman, but you still don't know anything compared to people who design these things and you don't know enough to explain them accurately.


The truck is not a sports car. But even both do not share the same mission, both share certain basic foundations such as four wheels and a chassis? If an engineer at International cannot tell his counterpart at Lamborghini on how to design a sports car, the reciprocal also applies to the Lamborghini engineer as well regarding his counterpart at International on how to design a truck. But even so, both did not came to where they are at without a shared foundation such as shared education in mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, materials, and so on...



manqiangrexue said:


> I understand your concept of "Chinese physics" now. It means physics that are too complicated for you to understand. Any physics beyond your basic principles cartoon is considered "Chinese physics" by you. If you didn't learn it, it's considered Chinese.
> 
> Your founding principles google cartoon is trash. You heard it at orientation, googled up a pic, and thought this is the bible to making stealth jets. In all classes, we learn founding principles on the first day. If it was the third grade, those principles stood till the last day. In college, we learned exceptions as the class progressed. *In a PhD level course, by the end of the course, the founding principles were shot so full of holes* you'd fail the final for sure if you stuck by them because every test question was on how to solve an exception to the rule. The more complex, the less you can simply apply "founding principles" and you bring your google cartoon to discuss stealth jets like you know how things work. "Chinese physics" is all the exceptions and bypasses to your "founding principles".


 Now that is clearly the expected venture into 'Chinese physics'...







The angle of deflection/reflection is the angle of incidence. That is the real law of physics/nature. I challenge you to show any PhD papers that passed peer review that upside down that law.

Say what...??? It is a national secret in China to design 'stealth' fighters...??? 






The 'ten lambda' rule states that if the diameter is greater than ten wavelengths, any wavelength/frequency, the creeping wave behavior will not exist and contribute to RCS. If the diameter is less than ten lambda, the creeping wave behavior will exist and contribute to RCS. This rule is foundational but it was unknown to this forum and led to many false assumptions about designing radar low observable bodies.

And if you think I made up that rule with my 'trash' illustration...







> When the geometric dimension of an object is large enough *(>&#955*, the quantity of creeping wave on the backward direction can be neglected.


Am sure you can tell that the authors of that paper are not American in origin.

I challenge any Chinese here to show the forum any PhD paper that passed peer review that upside down that law of physics.



manqiangrexue said:


> Dude, I never saw the J-10 to F-35 video and even if I did see the title, I'd never click on it because I know the "vs." things by forum addicts are basically worth toenail clippings in terms of their ability to predict a real outcome. The jet you think would win is most highly probably the one your country made, no matter where you're from. (Iran: Our bootleg F-5 with 2 vertical stabilizers would totally kill the Raptor because this:..... LOL) *Don't know why you brought it up at all, because a Chinese person once said it?*


Yes, because the man cannot even answer a single basic aviation question posed to him and yet boasted about his J-20 video that got my friends at Hill AFB and Raytheon laughing. It is the lack of knowledge of foundational principles, the ones you sneered at, that made him a laughing stock here on this and other corners of the Internet and among those who have relevant experience.



manqiangrexue said:


> *My points:*
> 1. J-31 seems to look like a F-22/F-35 hybrid so it probably incorporates the best of both, because it doesn't make sense to incorporate the worst of both.
> 2. Change in design usually reflects improvement.
> 3. I might be wrong; the true indicator of the jet's performance (other than war, of course) is whether or not the PLAN and PLAAF choose to buy it.
> 
> Korean's points:
> 1. It's not flat enough to be a maneuverable fighter. (Oh, really! Someone quickly tell Shenyang to flatten it, cus they didn't know that!)
> 2. The nose/cockpit/air intakes look like F-35 so it's sluggish. (Sure, no need to compare wings, stabilizers or anything, cus those don't matter in terms of maneuvering the jet.)
> 3. It must have low range because it has 2 engines and is roughly similarly sized to the F-35. (Sure, all engines are exactly the same in terms of fuel consumption. Also, the space that held a VTOL fan in the F-35 is probably filled with foam and bubble wrap in the Chinese version. Couldn't possibly be used for extra fuel or weapons bays.)
> 4. The Chinese probably stole the F-35 design, didn't analyze it despite massive criticism, and copied it with all its flaws. (Yeah, sounds like a good plan to me, must sound like a great plan to military scientists; let's do that.)
> 
> Instead of slamming other people's stealth fighters with analyses that has more holes in it than Swiss cheese after a shoot-out with Al Pacino (probably not as clever a joke as I thought LOL), Korean should be praying (or working on it, if he's that great) that the KFX gets off paper in the next decade.
> 
> If you think my arguments and Korean's arguments are the same in terms of assumptions, then it's pretty clear why you relegated from Air Force to internet forums.


What was it you said about toenail clippings?


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## Nefory

Recently, several internet photos of presumably the second stealth fighter, aka J31, flow around the web. From all the images at hand we can only tell it has conventional layout unlike J20, it&#8217;s significantly smaller than J20, and it use 2 Klimov RD33(93) turbo fans, and its awkward paint job.

The occurrence of J31 is surrounded so many myths. let alone its technological origin and supposed roll in Chinese air power, the way it rolled out made no sense, not even in the Chinese way. 

Years before J20 and even T50 came to the surface, rumors of an undergoing 5th gen fighter project has widely spread in Chinese cyber-world, and the information was so detailed that way before J20 even showed up, we already &#8220;knew&#8221; it would be a heavy jet with twin engines, DSI intake, delta wing, and canard; we &#8220;knew&#8221; it aimed for air superiority with multirole sub-capability; we &#8220;knew&#8221; it focused on super-maneuverability and supersonic. Furthermore, we &#8220;knew&#8221; it would show up at the end of 2010, we even &#8220;knew&#8221; it would fly in early January, 2011. Of course, &#8220;we knew&#8221; means no more than we heard rumors, but we were later proven not being too far from the truth. More than just rumors, the media and even high ranking military officials confirmed the existence of 5th gen project in 2009. When it finally rolled out, the big red star on J20&#8217;s vertical fin, and the appearance of multiple high ranking military officers during and after the maiden flight. These all indicates the full support of the military behind the development of J20.

Now let&#8217;s take a look at how J31 presented itself to the public. Approximately 2 or 3 months after the maiden flight of J20, several rumors of &#8220;second stealth fighter&#8221; is also being developed by SAC. The rumors all agreed that the jet would be in medium-size and with conventional layout, but contradicted with each others in many other aspects, such as whether it would be DSI or carat intakes, or whether it is designed as ship-borne fighter for PLAN or JSF mainly for hi-lo combination with J20, etc. People couldn&#8217;t even tell if the ongoing J16 project, which was a new generation (here it is just meant for the Chinese military as they didn&#8217;t have much home-grown multirole capability, so any new multirole jets can be called a &#8220;new generation&#8221;, even if they were just 4th gen+), is the same stealth fighter project that is being rumored around. Many believed they were the same thing and were soon proven wrong as J16 rolled out. Some didn&#8217;t even believed such project exists as it made no sense for PLAF would support another 5th gen project at this stage due to obvious reasons, such as limited budgets and more pressing demands for replacing J7 and J8 with J10 and J11. Then all of a sudden, a plane wrapped up in strange camouflage and placed at the back of a tow truck in an awkward angle, cruised by thousands of miles, on open high ways, across crowded cities. We all remember this episode. And when people are just about to forget, it just showed up in whole, just like that.

Now, as if it was not confusing enough, The Chinese &#8220;fanboys&#8221; are saying that this plane is for export purpose, and whether it will be inducted by the military is &#8220;uncertain&#8221;. How ridiculous is that? We all know SAC or its mother company AVIC is state-own company. How would the government fund a military project only for export purpose, when it&#8217;s an elementary school quiz to figure out the challenge for China to even sell JF17 to others? Well, I must say what they suggest is not at all pointless. To clear this all up, we need to know a little bit about how the Chinese bureaucracy works in AVIC and a little bit simple history of the Chinese 4th gen and 5th gen projects. It might not sounds relevant at the beginning, but background history is needed.

Forty some year ago, when China still in the chaos of Cultural Revolution, A small group of engineers from the 601 Shengyang Design institue, who were previously responsible for J9 project, were sent to Chengdu, Sichuan, to form the so called &#8220;southern team&#8221;. Song Wencong, who later master minded J10 was among them. However, he left Shengyang mainly because he was &#8220;politically incorrect&#8221;. So it was kind of an exile for him. The southern team later became the Chengdu 611 institute, and Song became the head of the institute. 

In early 1980&#8217;s, the military decided to design a new fighter jet to replace its J6 fleet. As a result, a conference consisted of aviation experts from different institutes and high ranking officials from the military was held to decide who will be appointed to develop the next generation fighter (project 10). Now fellas, keep this in mind: back in 70s and 80s, Chinese aviation industry literally had nothing to begin with except a few mig19s and early type of mig21. Every fighter jet project started from scratch, including engine. As China was light years away from the top game of military aviation, they lacked sufficient technology, experience, budget, and last but not least, the understanding of modern air combats. Therefore, since 60s, many fighter jets projects either being cancelled or failed. Because of these, when they decide to carry out project 10, having each participant to build a demonstrator for their own projects and compete against each other was not realistic. They didn&#8217;t have the money, and they had nothing to begin with. So the so called contest was &#8230; well, they just sit and talked, and the audience would decide who made more sense. That doesn&#8217;t sound scientific, does it? Well, that was they worked &#8212;if you find no way out, work a way out. Back to the conference, the competition was mainly between 650 institute (Hongdu) and 601 institute (Shengyang). Hongdu&#8217;s proposal was a variant of Q6 project which was basically a rip-off Mig23MF, while Shengyang&#8217;s proposal was something like a F16&#8212;single engine, conventional layout, and wing strakes. 

However, there weren&#8217;t any competition, because no one thought Hongdu&#8217;s proposal was doable and Shengyang has the best infrastructure and human intellectual resource, thus everyone thought Shenyang will win the project.

Song and 3 others of his crew from Chengdu 611 institute were also invited, while 30 of his colleagues from Shengyang were presenting their proposal. 4 VS 30, it was kind of clear that 611 were not meant to be part of the project. However, when it was his turn for the presentation, he start introducing his understanding of modern air to air combats base on current military conflict at that time, and base on that he concluded what the Chinese next generation fighter should be like. The military liked his idea and proponed the decision making to the next conference so that 611 institute can prepare for their proposal in detailed. Till then, 601 institute still thought the project would finally fall on them, until months lator, project 10 eventually was decided upon Chengdu. 

The true reason behind this decision remained uncertain. According to Song&#8217;s biography, and pro-CAC guys said it was because CAC&#8217;s proposal convinced the military; On the other hand, Gu songfun, chief engineer in SAC, said in his biography that Shengyang was too close to the threat from the Soviet, and thus the decision was made not to keep all the eegs in one basket. 

Shengyang 601 institute and 112 factory formed the SAC, and likewise, 611 and 132 became CAC. And all these aviation corporation along with other sub-system manufacturers altogether formed the AVIC. Since then, Chengdu aviation group became the game changer in Chinese aviation industry. And that pissed quite a few people off in AVIC.

As a state own group with no public supervision, one can easily imagine how much bureaucracy and, fair to say, corruption in AVIC. For them, the best situation is always like one member gets a large deal from the military, and that member will share the meal with all others in the family, such as you&#8217;ll make the radar, he&#8217;ll make the hydraulic system, they&#8217;ll make the engine, etc. No contest, no bidding. We all know how bureaucracy and corruption work in socialism, so no need to go further. However, CAC didn&#8217;t go that way. They have all sub-systems contracts for open bidding. It certainly didn&#8217;t mean that private sectors in China back then were allow joining nor they have the capability to contribute to the project, but it certainly created an example which left the door open for the future. Anyway, as the jobs no longer automatically find them, the sub system manufacturers had to compete against each other to get a contract from CAC. Things we thought to be normal were quite absurd in China back then. You might imagine many people didn&#8217;t like this way, but things went out fine, mainly because project 10 wasn&#8217;t all that important, even it was one of the national project. In 80&#8217;s, China and the west had a relatively good relation, the military threat from the north exist, but not very pressing. More importantly, instead hoping a miracle out of its own defense industry, Chinese military turned towards west. That&#8217;s when U.S tried to sell F16-79, and France tried to sell Mirage 2000 to China. And as the crown-jewel of Chinese aviation back then, although SAC missed the project 10, they were given another big package: Project Peace Pearl. Meanwhile, CAC joint with PAF, started the development of super 7, which later became JF17. During these joint projects, both SAC and CAC gained a great deal of experience from their American colleagues from Grumman. Again, you can see how differently SAC and CAC were treated back then &#8211; SAC was given the opportunity to work with the American, while CAC must had joint cooperation with a foreign government with no official budget from Chinese government.

Then is the history we all knew. 6.4 happened, All Sino-American military cooperation ceased, Mirage 2000 settled down on the other side of the Taiwanese Channel, Super 7 lingered after American money stopped. Then the Soviet Union collapsed and Su27 and AL31 came to China. Again, SAC was given the job to conduct the local production line of Su27 and to full the production of 200 Su27s. And with AL31, J10 could finally find an engine that can bring it to the sky.

From the brief history, we can see that SAC had been well taken care of. And they are catching food fallen from sky for long, while CAC had to fight for everything they can lay hands on (they even made washing machines and cable cars just to survive). And when SAC busy reverse engineering SU27, in 2003, J10 started entering service in small batch. PLAF was happy about it, especially when it often won one-sided victory against SU27. You must imagine the PLAAF was quite shock back then because in late 1990&#8217;s, even after J10&#8217;s maiden flight, high level officials of PLAAF were still in favor Sukhoi much more than domestic manufacturers. J10 kind of settle them down as they were impressed and satisfied with the jet. On the other hand, SAC who are in charge of assembling Su27 and reverse engineering it were kind of dull. In 2007, right after J10 were officially announced entering service, PLAAF start the bidding for the 5th Gen fighter project&#8212;J20. It was ironic how history repeats itself. Again, everyone kind of thought SAC were well prepared, that they start their preparation it since 1997, that they had the best resource in terms of technology or infrastructure, etc. Again, they were beaten by CAC. And again, CAC started doing in their own ways. This time, people up in the board of AVIC were truly unhappy about the way CAC manage the project. They felt CAC would jeopardize the interest of the AVIC as a whole; that the authority of AVIC would be threaten. So they started sticking their noses into the CAC&#8217;s business, started with messing up their management. First, they gave promotion to the supposed J20 project leader Yang Wei to a new position in Beijing&#8217;s AVIC Head quarters to pull him away from Chengdu. Second, they swap the company managers between SAC and CAC (in which case, the manager of SAC quitted from his original position and serve in the same position in CAC and vice versa). Third, AVIC command CAC to outsource the design of rear fuselage to SAC. This episode got quite embarrassing as Yang Wei, J20 project manager refused to attend his new position in Beijing for months. How the whole thing finally ended up, I don&#8217;t know. I assume the military finally got involved &#8220;solved&#8221; this bureaucracy by backing CAC. I think that&#8217;s why there was a big August 1st star on J20 vertical fin. I remember how people questioned the legitimacy of J20 photos. One of many bases was the August 1st insignia. Indeed, without knowing the hidden conflict behind the J20 project and the military influence of it, August 1st insignia made no sense at all.

So, 4 years after the bidding, J20 successfully flew to the sky, got a few cheers. And for the consideration of maintaining competiveness among its children companies, AVIC decide to fund SAC from its own budget for another 5th gen fighter project. This project is not the same one they used to compete with CAC. However, there is no doubt they started with what they had 4 years ago. Remember, the bidding was closed in 2007. They had whole lot of time to modify or simplified their original design to what we see today. Did they use the so called "F35 data" acquired? I hope they have! However, as I remember the security breech in LM went public last May. If that was the period when SAC got the file, and in about one and a half year, they finish the rip off and wind tunnel and strength testing, I would say WOW to that.

It&#8217;s clear there this is not a military acknowledged project, just like JF17, otherwise, we would have seen military marking on the plane, just like J16 prototype 1601. And surely there would be high chances that we wouldn&#8217;t see it being towed half way through the nation. And surely we wouldn&#8217;t have seen the private tow truck contractor actually released the wingspan 11.5m on its own web side. And we wouldn&#8217;t have seen high resolution photos of it just moment after its first exposure.

I don&#8217;t know what the air force or navy think of this jet by this moment. I sure want either of them will give sufficient support to the development of this jet. And considering the influence of SAC and AVIC people, they might end up getting a very good deal. By the way, the PLAN had kind of a history of backing projects that the Air Force disregards. In 80&#8217;s, XAC was developing FB7. PLAAF just thought there was no use of it and were not willing to fund it. However, the Navy desperately needed a platform for long range attack and ended up backing the FB7 projects. Now I heard the Navy fell quite behind in the waiting list of acquiring the new J16. And rumors say that&#8217;s why they again went along with XAC for developing FB7B, and it will come out soon enough. I don&#8217;t know whether J31 will become a ship borne fighter. We can only wait and see what happen to J31.


----------



## Pak47

J-21 Vs. J-31?

Same Jet?

Different Jets?

Different companies? Is one Shenyang and the other Catic?


----------



## Kompromat

*Photos Of New Chinese Fighter Appear*

By Bradley Perrett perrett@aviationweek.com, Bill Sweetman william_sweetman@aviationweek.com
Source: AWIN First







September 17, 2012

*A second Chinese stealth fighter, apparently from Avic&#8217;s Shenyang plant, has appeared in seemingly genuine pictures that cropped up on Chinese web sites Sept. 15.
*
The twin-engine, single-seat fighter, shown at an airfield, appears to approximate the Lockheed Martin F-35 in size, with a somewhat shallower body but a similar span of about 11.4 meters (37.5 ft.), as indicated by comparison with a commercial aircraft tug shown pulling it.

The aircraft features a large ventral weapons bay. Wing sweep looks to be less than 45 deg. on the leading edge, as it was on a wrapped fighter-like object that was hauled by road from Shenyang to Xi&#8217;an in June. That trucked object could well have been the now-assembled prototype, three photographs of which have appeared.

Whenever photographs of new weapons appear on nonofficial web sites in China, the risk of fakery is at least as great as elsewhere. But the publication and sustained appearance of the three shots on the large Chinese web portal Sina somewhat supports their veracity.

The source of the pictures is unknown; assuming they are real, they are probably official but unacknowledged, intended to let the world know how far China has gone in developing a smaller companion to the so-called J-20 fighter of Chengdu Aircraft, Shenyang&#8217;s rival.

Moreover, the photographs have evidently been staged with the intent of not only revealing the fighter but also letting observers easily measure it and appreciate some of its features. The object hauled on the back of a truck in June was similarly placed next to objects of known size to aid photometric analysis.

Among the most distinctive features on the prototype are doors for the weapons bay. They were about a third as long as the whole aircraft, meaning that the bay must be at least 5 meters long. Assuming that the Chinese military has deliberately revealed the prototype, it surely opened the doors just as deliberately, to show the location and size of the bay. Similarly, a directly head-on shot conveniently showed trapezoidal intakes much like the F-22&#8217;s and the angle of the twin canted fins and lower body, about 25 deg.

The engines could well be Klimov RD-93s, which have been imported from Russia for the JF-17 export fighter. If so, a Chinese engine would presumably follow. The engines appear to be installed aft of the bulkhead that carries the main landing gear. The exact routing of inlet ducts, a key issue in reducing radar reflections, could not be judged, but a bulge on top of the fuselage shows that they rise well above the wing.

The location of the prototype was not clear from the photos, but Xi&#8217;an, the destination of the trucked object in June, has a flight test center. While China has not officially acknowledged the existence of the Shenyang aircraft, it has been popularly called J-21 or J-31. Shenyang displayed a model of a similar aircraft labeled F-60 last year. The prototype differs at least in having different moveable wing surfaces and in lacking a stinger between the nozzles.

Simultaneous development of two stealth fighters indicates the allocation of enormous resources by China. But if the country is to continue to catch up to Western fighter technology, it probably cannot afford first to get the J-20 into service and then to move on to a smaller aircraft as a replacement for Chengdu&#8217;s J-10. The J-10 began large-scale entry into service in 2006 and is unlikely to be considered fit as a first-rank aircraft in the late 2020s.

Also, China will want a domestically built fighter for the aircraft carrier it is now testing, as well as any follow-on ships. The J-20 is probably too large for carrier use. On the other hand, views of the truck-hauled object suggested that the Shenyang fighter had only a modestly sized wing; carrier aircraft need relatively large wings. Conceivably, a big-wing carrier version of the new fighter could be built, like the F-35C.

Photos Of New Chinese Fighter Appear

Extract from aviation week.


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## manqiangrexue

Forget it, Gambit. You are never going to convince anyone intelligent that you are an expert on stealth aircraft. I didn't read what you posted. It doesn't matter how many notches you wanna bump it up (it's still not even close to orientation level material for the guys who actually design stealth fighters) to make yourself look knowledgeable. You don't know jack squat because you don't work on stealth jets. 

All the people who are qualified to comment are working on stealth jets. Other people know they don't know anything, like me. And then there's the last group who doesn't know anything but are too stupid to realize that they don't know and have a big ego so wanna look like they know. That's you and that will forever be you no matter how many diagrams or papers you post. Seriously, that's a lot of desperate effort to try to look smart because no one read your long boring pointless post.

The only way you would ever be considered knowledgeable is if you got a job and started designing stealth fighters. Short of that, the conclusion remains, you don't know shxxxt and people in Shenyang probably wipe their arse with diagrams more complicated than the most complicated that you'll ever understand.


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Forget it, Gambit. You are never going to convince anyone intelligent that you are an expert on stealth aircraft. I didn't read what you posted. It doesn't matter how many notches you wanna bump it up (it's still not even close to orientation level material for the guys who actually design stealth fighters) to make yourself look knowledgeable. You don't know jack squat because you don't work on stealth jets.
> 
> All the people who are qualified to comment are working on stealth jets. Other people know they don't know anything, like me. And then there's the last group who doesn't know anything but are too stupid to realize that they don't know and have a big ego so wanna look like they know. That's you and that will forever be you no matter how many diagrams or papers you post. Seriously, that's a lot of desperate effort to try to look smart because no one read your long boring pointless post.
> 
> The only way you would ever be considered knowledgeable is if you got a job and started designing stealth fighters. Short of that, the conclusion remains, you don't know shxxxt and people in Shenyang probably wipe their ***** with diagrams more complicated than the most complicated that you'll ever understand.


This is not about me but about the silent interested lay readers. If I do not speak up and debunk claims based on ignorance, you Chinese boys will be free to spread those same claims based on ignorance. I did not expect you to read what I posted, but just because you did not, it does not mean no one else did. If anything, more read than passed. Sad for your side, really.



manqiangrexue said:


> Seriously, that's a lot of desperate effort to try to look smart because no one read your long boring pointless post.


I guess that is why your man went to so much length to make that absurd video -- for those gullible and dumb enough in this age of video games to be so easily seduced with moving images instead of poring over boring printed words, like how real engineers did it *BEFORE* they entered their professions and jobs.

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## Nefory

manqiangrexue said:


> Forget it, Gambit. You are never going to convince anyone intelligent that you are an expert on stealth aircraft. I didn't read what you posted. It doesn't matter how many notches you wanna bump it up (it's still not even close to orientation level material for the guys who actually design stealth fighters) to make yourself look knowledgeable. You don't know jack squat because you don't work on stealth jets.
> 
> All the people who are qualified to comment are working on stealth jets. Other people know they don't know anything, like me. And then there's the last group who doesn't know anything but are too stupid to realize that they don't know and have a big ego so wanna look like they know. That's you and that will forever be you no matter how many diagrams or papers you post. Seriously, that's a lot of desperate effort to try to look smart because no one read your long boring pointless post.
> 
> The only way you would ever be considered knowledgeable is if you got a job and started designing stealth fighters. Short of that, the conclusion remains, you don't know shxxxt and people in Shenyang probably wipe their arse with diagrams more complicated than the most complicated that you'll ever understand.





Dude, you are just getting ridiculous. How can you say they don't matter when you haven't read them? Papers and thesis and other scientific publications are important materials for studies.



gambit said:


> This is not about me but about the silent interested lay readers. If I do not speak up and debunk claims based on ignorance, you Chinese boys will be free to spread those same claims based on ignorance. I did not expect you to read what I posted, but just because you did not, it does not mean no one else did. If anything, more read than passed. Sad for your side, really.
> 
> 
> I guess that is why your man went to so much length to make that absurd video -- for those gullible and dumb enough in this age of video games to be so easily seduced with moving images instead of poring over boring printed words, like how real engineers did it *BEFORE* they entered their professions and jobs.




And you sir, please don't use the phrase "you Chinese boys"


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## gambit

Nefory said:


> Dude, you are just getting ridiculous. How can you say they don't matter when you haven't read them? *Papers and thesis and other scientific publications are important materials for studies.*


Noooooooooo.....!!! Say that is not true...!!! Please...please...please...I beg of you...!!!

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## gambit

Nefory said:


> And you sir, please don't use the phrase "you Chinese boys"


Tell you what, in any debate with you, if you treat me with respect, I will not use that phrase. However, based upon my experience with the Chinese members here, it will not be long before you get tire of seeing your fellow Chinese being challenged by someone who they considered to be of 'inferior' Asian stock, and will treat me with the same contempt as they have.

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## manqiangrexue

Gambit, what video? My man? Who are these people you are talking about? Ridiculous to link these things to me because I'm Chinese. But if you wanna play it like that, I can link all the comments of the KKK to you because you're all white (if you are, I dunno, it's an example). 

You think people learned from you? Anyone serious about learning the physics behind designing stealth jets isn't learning it off this forum. They will take university courses, graduate courses, do a doctorate, etc... No one here is interested in a physics debate. You know why no one read your post? You're not even proving a point in physics. You posted diagrams to try to prove you know stuff about stealth jets. Basically, "Here's a bunch of diagrams of stuff I know. Please see how long they are, and feel intimidated by my knowledge." If anything, the fact that you pulled out those diagrams in a common sense debate, not a physics debate proves your desperation to look knowledgeable. People who are desperate to look knowledgeable are usually NOT. 

Once again, bottom line: You design stealth fighters= knowledgeable; You're on a forum = not.

Nefory, yeah, they're important for studies for a physics student but looking at that information as light as that and trying to understand stealth fighters from it is like trying to design nuclear weapons by studying the how soda blows up after you shake the can.


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## Nefory

gambit said:


> Tell you what, in any debate with you, if you treat me with respect, I will not use that phrase. However, based upon my experience with the Chinese members here, it will not be long before you get tire of seeing your fellow Chinese being challenged by someone who they considered to be of 'inferior' Asian stock, and will treat me with the same contempt as they have.



Well, I haven't visit this site quite often enough, not have I follow your conversation from top to bottom, so I have no idea what went wrong exactly. If indeed someone has been insulted deliberately, which I imagine is daily basis, a good way to counter such uncivilized behavior is simply report them and let the modulator do their job. Isn't that the way it should be? However, if you consider yourself speak on a scientific basis, you know "you Chinese boys are..." does not stand. It would be those you saw, not all of us. Well, anyway, it's your fight. I'm just passing by.


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## tanlixiang28776

Respect is not something you can demand. It is something that can only be earned.


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## Sasquatch

Please stick to the topic it's getting side tracked again.


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## tanlixiang28776

Fine.

An observation many people have probably already made. The RD 93 engines seem to be significantly smaller than the engine nacelles that they were fitted in. The WS 13 series is no bigger. What engine would be in the final version of the plane as these are obviously interim?


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## Sasquatch

I will say it again stick to the topic otherwise the threads get derailed.

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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit, what video? My man? Who are these people you are talking about? Ridiculous to link these things to me because I'm Chinese. But if you wanna play it like that, I can link all the comments of the KKK to you because you're all white (if you are, I dunno, it's an example).


You mean you are not one of those 80-90 thousands viewers Mr. Martian2 boasted about? You might want to contact a fellow Chinese off the discussion about that.



manqiangrexue said:


> You think people learned from you?


Absolutely many have. Even the Chinese member who made that ridiculous video. He learned from me the basics of radar detection.



manqiangrexue said:


> Anyone serious about learning the physics behind designing stealth jets isn't learning it off this forum. They will take university courses, graduate courses, do a doctorate, etc... No one here is interested in a physics debate. *You know why no one read your post?* You're not even proving a point in physics. You posted diagrams to try to prove you know stuff about stealth jets. Basically, "Here's a bunch of diagrams of stuff I know. Please see how long they are, and feel intimidated by my knowledge." If anything, the fact that you pulled out those diagrams in a common sense debate, not a physics debate proves your desperation to look knowledgeable. People who are desperate to look knowledgeable are usually NOT.


You mean only you do not read my posts. That is because you are afraid -- if not terrified -- of learning the truth.

The issue is not about learning how to design 'stealth' aircrafts from anonymous Internet forums, but as you defended your right to make assumptions, it is equally a burden upon you (or anyone else who makes assumptions) to read rebuttals. That is how you learn, even if just a little by little, day by day, and admit when your assumptions are wrong, if proven wrong. Are you that intellectually honest with yourself? From the way it looks -- looks like *NOT*.

I did not seek out this forum. I was invited here. When I got here I found there are a lot of misconceptions on how radar detection works. Without a reasonable understanding of how radar detection works, *EVERY* assumptions on how 'stealth', or technically speaking 'low radar observable', are wrong. I corrected a lot of people on the word 'invisible'. I have said and continued to say that in radar detection, *NOTHING* is invisible. It shocked a lot of people, especially those who learned from popular media blurbs that uses the word 'invisible'. Now those who learned from me on why the word 'invisible' is not used by professionals in the field, they themselves do not use that word.

Prior to my participation here, no one knows of the phrase 'corner reflector' and understand why it is detrimental to 'stealth'...











Now those who are intellectually honest with themselves and willing to learn successfully argued that for designing 'stealth' fighters, the aircraft *MUST* have twin canted vertical stabilators that does not produce the 90 deg corner reflector. Now all the talks about making every existing fighters 'stealthy' pretty much stopped.

Prior to my participation here, no one know of something called 'EM isolation anechoic chamber' testing for low radar observable bodies...






Now those who are intellectually honest with themselves -- unlike you -- know the overall or 'helicopter view' of the process of designing a 'stealth' fighter: Prediction/Modeling then Measurement. EM isolation anechoic chamber testing is Measurement. And that is why not every country in the world can design an effective low radar observable aircraft.

They do not need to know the math or computer software of 'stealth' to learn that they harbored a lot of misconceptions. They know that what I posted are *UNIVERSAL* principles. If the Americans have done it, so can the Russians or the Chinese or the Pakistanis. The question is finance and granularity of 'Prediction/Modeling and Measurement'.

Learn anything yet?

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## tanlixiang28776

Heres the problem. Mr Gambit likes to use arguments of different Chinese people in his arguments and expect that we back them up. 

As if we were one big happy family that just agrees with each other.

This inherent racial grouping from him makes any reasonable argument completely impossible. Its downright disrespectful and this kind of behavior should not even be tolerated if this forum wants to call itself professional.

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## manqiangrexue

Gambit, honestly, I've seen most of those diagrams from Air Australia, sites like that. I've even lightly studied a few. I just don't think that knowing all of them means you know enough to judge stealth fighters. I don't read your post because I wasn't arguing with you about any aspect of stealth so there's no reason you should post diagrams anyway. The fact that they're there shows you're hiding behind a random bunch of facts that you've collected and not actively addressing my argument that despite all your diagrams you still don't know enough to comment on professional designs of stealth. 

If you mention Martin's video (which I've never seen and I don't know who Martin is) to me again then every time you post I will mention that time Ho Chi Minh said he'd rather eat Chinese dung than French food and peg it on you like you tattooed it on your neck just because you're both Vietnamese.

Tianlixiang28776, I heard those gaps between the engine bay and engines are there because the caps used to hold the engines in place have not been installed. I'm not sure if it's true though.


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit, honestly,...


No. Lie to me...I prefer it that way...



manqiangrexue said:


> ...I've seen most of those diagrams from Air Australia, sites like that. I've even lightly studied a few. *I just don't think that knowing all of them means you know enough to judge stealth fighters.*


That is outright contradictory. If you insist on the right to make assumptions, which you did, then you deemed yourself knowledgeable enough to make judgments. Your problem is that you do not like to be challenged.



manqiangrexue said:


> I don't read your post because I wasn't arguing with you about any aspect of stealth so there's no reason you should post diagrams anyway. The fact that they're there shows you're hiding behind a random bunch of facts that you've collected and not actively addressing my argument that despite all your diagrams you still don't know enough to comment on professional designs of stealth.


Like I already said...Intellectual dishonesty rules.

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## manqiangrexue

I see the problem, Gambit. You think that by studying a few papers you know as much as stealth fighter engineers. This is where we disagree. 

I believe that you can find papers all you want and read free google diagrams all you want but that will never give you enough knowledge to judge a stealth fighter. There will be too much that you cannot learn from the self-search method to make an accurate judgement because that information is kept under top secret lock and key. I believe that to be a true expert in stealth fighters, you need professional aerodynamic engineering degrees and training and you also need to be debriefed on sensitive information about these jets that you cannot find by yourself. You need to know information available only to the most trusted designers of the project to make an accurate judgement of it. 

You believe if you've googled anything for long enough, you're as good as any pro. 

I know they probably taught you some stuff while you flew jets, maybe they even skimmed upon how stealth fighters work, but unless you are professionally trained and have access to classified information, there's no way you are a expert on stealth fighters.

You are hiding behind facts and using them as a shield of BS. Why would you post a diagram how how stealth fighters tails should be designed (seen that, simple concept, knew that) when we were not taking about that at all?? That is hiding. That is why it is garbage even though it is 100% true.

You were "invited"? Oh, wow, must make you feel so high and mighty someone said, "Hey, check this forum out." Or did they send you an official letter of invitation with a certificate or something? "I was invited..." LOL Shows your ego. Get this: as much as you think everyone else is trolling, you are too. You're not better than anyone else on the internet just because you flew an aircraft before. Invited... LOL

I don't see how much further this discussion can go...

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## tanlixiang28776

Gambit likes to hide behind the arguments of other people when you try to make an argument. " Oh but Martian says this so prove that". Does my name look like fking Martian? 

Yeah arguing with Gambit is pointless. He'll bring out the same articles and images dozens of times. He'll try to make you prove other peoples arguments. He'll use days of his pathetic life to argue with you spewing out paragraphs and paragraphs of text he stitches together from his past arguments. 

I've personally seen this picture used in over a dozen different threads by him.








Expertise wise you've maintained some 4th gen planes at best as a mechanic. You have no knowledge on the design of fifth gen planes other than articles on Google that mimic what you believe in. Hell my 4th grade brother could do that.

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## tanlixiang28776

To solve this whole problem of certain members claiming that they have professional knowledge when they obviously lack it, this forum needs to implement a credential system like on other sites. 

If you claim you have explicit knowledge on a subject you actually have to give paper evidence to the mods that your profession is actually involved in it.

Gambit has never been involved in maintaining, building, or designing 5th gen jets. Therefore he lacks any credentials to claim professional knowledge.

Claiming otherwise is just lying and fraud. Some members believe Gambit because in his posts he claims that he has expert knowledge and history in 5th gen jets. That is simply not the case.


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## tanlixiang28776

Intellectual dishonesty in this thread has only been shown by Gambit.

Others argue and point out that they are not in any way professionals in the subject and are basing them based on their best judgement.

Gambit here pretends that he is an actual professional on the subject when he is clearly not.

Thats what Intellectual dishonesty is.

Ability to Google unfortunately is not an credential for fifth generation airplane design as sad as it is.

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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> I see the problem, Gambit.


No, you do not. The real problem is that you refused to concede to the potential that someone else might know more than you do.



manqiangrexue said:


> You think that by studying a few papers you know as much as stealth fighter engineers.


No, I do not think so and have stated to many more fair minded than you.



manqiangrexue said:


> *I believe that you can find papers all you want and read free google diagrams all you want but that will never give you enough knowledge to judge a stealth fighter.* There will be too much that you cannot learn from the self-search method to make an accurate judgement because that information is kept under top secret lock and key. I believe that to be a true expert in stealth fighters, you need professional aerodynamic engineering degrees and training and you also need to be debriefed on sensitive information about these jets that you cannot find by yourself. You need to know information available only to the most trusted designers of the project to make an accurate judgement of it.
> 
> You believe if you've googled anything for long enough, you're as good as any pro.


And yet *YOU* insisted on the right to make assumptions, which really are judgments in themselves, and you were so certain of yourself that you opined that you are probably less wrong than Mr. Korean, never mind the fact that both of you have no military experience, let alone aviation experience.

Now why is that so odd to readers who sees you focusing on my experience but said nothing about your own *NON-EXPERIENCE*. 



manqiangrexue said:


> I don't see how much further this discussion can go...


This is where you are wrong. Speculations about this latest inevitably will venture into 'Chinese physics'. Started of with you.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> I've personally seen this picture used in over a dozen different threads by him.


Foundational principles are sooooooo boring...

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## MilSpec

I love it when gambit takes over a thread and just kicks the crap outta absolutely everyone....


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Ability to Google unfortunately is not an credential for fifth generation airplane design as sad as it is.


Even far less is 'Chinese physics'.


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## tanlixiang28776

gambit said:


> Foundational principles are sooooooo boring...



Fundamental principles that have nothing to do with the discussion and only used to by you to pad yourself to make you seem knowledgeable when a 3rd grader interested in fighter planes could look up the same thing on Google. 

Yes quite boring.


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> *Fundamental principles that have nothing to do with the discussion* and only used to by you to pad yourself to make you seem knowledgeable when a 3rd grader interested in fighter planes could look up the same thing on Google.
> 
> Yes quite boring.


That is a definite 'must save'. Now we have definitive venture into 'Chinese physics'. Foundational principles in real physics are inapplicable as far as Chinese 'stealth' fighters are concerned.

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## tanlixiang28776

sandy_3126 said:


> I love it when gambit takes over a thread and just kicks the crap outta absolutely everyone....



Love it when random Indians come in to fan support on someone that argues with Chinese merely for the fact that they argue with Chinese, when they themselves have no guts to do it themselves.



gambit said:


> That is a definite 'must save'. Now we have definitive venture into 'Chinese physics'. Foundational principles in real physics are inapplicable as far as Chinese 'stealth' fighters are concerned.



You put the same thing on every single thread about 5th generation fighters. As if the mere thought that others can google is completely absurd.

Unless you actually have any inside knowledge that others can't merely find on the first page of google pls refrain from reposting it on every single thread over and over again.


Not everyone can be impressed by such novice knowledge.


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> You put the same thing on every single thread about 5th generation fighters. As if the mere thought that others can google is completely absurd.


To reinforce when someone clearly violated the laws of physics, quite often it is a Chinese poster who did so violated.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> Unless you actually have any inside knowledge that others can't merely find on the first page of google pls refrain from reposting it on every single thread over and over again.


Despite the fact that I have been out of aviation for a long time, there are knowledge that are still felonious enough to imprison me for equally a long time that I have been out of aviation, if not longer, if I divulge it here. Have nothing to do with 'stealth' but with radar knowledge. This is where you seems to have a problem: The potential that a Chinese member may be wrong.


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## tanlixiang28776

gambit said:


> To reinforce when someone clearly violated the laws of physics, quite often it is a Chinese poster who did so violated.



An picture of an dihedral reflector proves who is wrong? Stop posting pics that have no relevancy to the current argument. Anyone can post simple pictures. 



gambit said:


> Despite the fact that I have been out of aviation for a long time, there are knowledge that are still felonious enough to imprison me for equally a long time that I have been out of aviation, if not longer, if I divulge it here. Have nothing to do with 'stealth' but with radar knowledge. This is where you seems to have a problem: The potential that a Chinese member may be wrong.



No one needs precise details of anything. How about credentials that you were actually involved in the design, maintenance, or building of the F 22, F 23, F 35, F 117, x 47B, or any other american stealth products. Any of those would be fine. Otherwise your arguments are going to be taken as any other forum warrior.


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Not everyone can be impressed by such novice knowledge.


But about 90 thousands were impressed by a certain video......So much that he was made a member of the admin staff over at your playground.

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## Esc8781

tanlixiang28776 said:


> No one needs precise details of anything. How about credentials that you were actually involved in the design, maintenance, or building of the F 22, F 23, F 35, F 117, x 47B, or any other american stealth products. Any of those would be fine. Otherwise your arguments are going to be taken as any other forum warrior.


 pointless post.


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## Abhishek_

gambit said:


> But about 90 thousands were impressed by a certain video......So much that he was made a member of the admin staff over at your playground.


martian is an admin at the echo chamber? facepalm


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## tanlixiang28776

gambit said:


> But about 90 thousands were impressed by a certain video......So much that he was made a member of the admin staff over at your playground.



I don't need to answer for anyone else's comments or videos. However you do need to answer for your own statements that you were involved in 5th gen projects to verify your credentials.


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## Esc8781

gambit said:


> But about 90 thousands were impressed by a certain video......So much that he was made a member of the admin staff over at your playground.


 You should see the comments section.


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## tanlixiang28776

Abhishek_ said:


> martian is an admin at the echo chamber? facepalm



Yes the website that is administered by an ex US Navy personnel. And my my he actually has credentials to back it up. Unlike a certain 5th gen guru we have here that coasts by on people not actually questioning his background.

Gambit's just mad that Popeye gave him the ban hammer for refusing to be polite in discussions over and over again.


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> An picture of an dihedral reflector proves who is wrong? Stop posting pics that have no relevancy to the current argument. Anyone can post simple pictures.


I get it...Real physics does not work in China.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> No one needs precise details of anything. How about credentials that you were actually involved in the design, maintenance, or building of the F 22, F 23, F 35, F 117, x 47B, or any other american stealth products. Any of those would be fine. Otherwise your arguments are going to be taken as any other forum warrior.


There is a community that I may -- or may not -- be a member of => Electronic Warfare | Information Operations

Each Crow is usually associated with a form of EW which includes radar in all aspects, from design, to testing, to deployment. The AOC is an advisory group whose members comprised of military and civilians and each have above 'Secret' clearance. Many members do not have university degrees but are highly experienced enough that they are admitted into the community. Most seminars and symposiums are closed doors and by invitations only. The AOC serves as a consultant community to the DoD and to DARPA. Not every Crow worked on the current 'stealth' projects but the community's experience and foundational principles -- the same ones you Chinese boys dismissed -- they understood and successfully exploited over the years made them valuable a national asset. Too bad China does not have such a community.


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## manqiangrexue

Gambit can't read. I get that. I have stated over and over again that I know nothing and I know that I know nothing. You probably know more than me, but that is still next to nothing and not nearly good enough to judge professional designs. 

Also, your founding principles (images googled from the internet), though true, don't apply to this conversation because I don't see anyone arguing about physics of aircraft here. We're just saying that you don't know anything, and you posting random "foundations" up doesn't change that. 

First your "invitation" and now you claim to know things that would land you in jail if you told us. You just feel so special, dontcha? Well, guess what? Everyone who's anyone wouldn't be on this forum. The fact that you're here proves you're just another crab in the barrel like everyone else. 

Chinese physics? Nice term. I'll make one too. Viet logic. Here's how Viet logic works. 

If someone debates you on common sense, post random scientific papers and pictures found off google to try to look smart. Ask people to disprove them not realizing that there's no need to disprove them because they don't pertain to the argument at hand. Challenge people to defend videos posted that they've never seen before made by people who they don't know just because the maker seems to be from the same country. Claim to be a professional even though real professionals are working and fake ones are on the internet making claims. Finally, serve and hide behind the flag of the country that attacked and sprayed toxic chemicals all over your native country. That is "Viet logic" and this shall be the reply to all your BS from now on.


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## Abhishek_

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Yes the website that is administered by an ex US Navy personnel. And my my he actually has credentials to back it up. Unlike a certain 5th gen guru we have here that coasts by on people not actually questioning his background.


martian's credentials are only good for stand-up comedy. he is exceedingly good at it


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## tanlixiang28776

gambit said:


> I get it...Real physics does not work in China.



I get it you had nothing to debunk with that picture and is simply more things you added to pad your post. No need to keep trying to cover that up.




gambit said:


> There is a community that I may -- or may not -- be a member of => Electronic Warfare | Information Operations
> 
> Each Crow is usually associated with a form of EW which includes radar in all aspects, from design, to testing, to deployment. The AOC is an advisory group whose members comprised of military and civilians and each have above 'Secret' clearance. Many members do not have university degrees but are highly experienced enough that they are admitted into the community. Most seminars and symposiums are closed doors and by invitations only. The AOC serves as a consultant community to the DoD and to DARPA. Not every Crow worked on the current 'stealth' projects but the community's experience and foundational principles -- the same ones you Chinese boys dismissed -- they understood and successfully exploited over the years made them valuable a national asset. Too bad China does not have such a community.


 
FFS Gambit provide something people can individually verify. All your credentials are things that can not be verified by anyone.


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit can't read. I get that. I have stated over and over again that I know nothing and I know that I know nothing.


But *YOU* made assumptions, challenged others on theirs, and were so certain of yourself that you have no problems opining that you are less wrong than he probably is.

So what you are saying is that if it a Chinese aircraft, only Chinese are allowed to make assumptions. Everyone else -- shut up.

Do I have it correct?


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## tanlixiang28776

Abhishek_ said:


> martian's credentials are only good for stand-up comedy. he is exceedingly good at it



Serious reading malfunction I see. Last time I checked the administrator of sinodefence is Popeye, an EX US navy personnel.

Sinodefence unlike certain unnamed Indian forums actually focuses on technical discussion rather than circlejerks.


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> FFS Gambit provide something people can individually verify. All your credentials are things that can not be verified by anyone.


I do not care. On an anonymous Internet forum, the contents of one's arguments make the person. But that is where you Chinese boys have a problem -- you do not like to be challenged. You believed Chinese arguments are absolute.


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## tanlixiang28776

gambit said:


> But *YOU* made assumptions, challenged others on theirs, and were so certain of yourself that you have no problems opining that you are less wrong than he probably is.
> 
> So what you are saying is that if it a Chinese aircraft, only Chinese are allowed to make assumptions. Everyone else -- shut up.
> 
> Do I have it correct?



People are allowed to make assumptions and their opinions. 

However that is with the full admission it is an opinion.

You however pull up credentials no one can verify and state your opinions as fact.

See the difference?

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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Serious reading malfunction I see. Last time I checked the administrator of sinodefence is Popeye, an EX US navy personnel.
> 
> *Sinodefence unlike certain unnamed Indian forums actually focuses on technical discussion* rather than circlejerks.


Yeah, right...When a certain Chinese member who called himself 'Engineer' declared that the J-20's all-moving vertical stabs are 'more advanced' than the F-22's rudder system, no one challenged him on it despite nearly one hundred years of aviation history that says otherwise.


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## Abhishek_

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Serious reading malfunction I see. Last time I checked the administrator of sinodefence is Popeye, an EX US navy personnel.
> 
> Sinodefence unlike certain unnamed Indian forums actually focuses on technical discussion rather than circlejerks.


i simply queried about martian's status. is he an admin at the echochamber?


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## tanlixiang28776

gambit said:


> I do not care. On an anonymous Internet forum, the contents of one's arguments make the person. But that is where you Chinese boys have a problem -- you do not like to be challenged. You believed Chinese arguments are absolute.



Its fine to be challenged. Its not fine to be challenged by someone that tries to do so with paper thin credentials and take them as absolute fact.

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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> People are allowed to make assumptions and their opinions.
> 
> However that is with the full admission it is an opinion.
> 
> You however pull up credentials no one can verify and *state your opinions as fact.*
> 
> See the difference?


Which are supplied with impeccable sources and key words for anyone to verify. Explain why is it that none have returned with other sources that says I lied or misled people.


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## Esc8781

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Serious reading malfunction I see. Last time I checked the administrator of sinodefence is Popeye, an EX US navy personnel.
> 
> Sinodefence unlike certain unnamed Indian forums actually focuses on technical discussion rather than circlejerks.


 F-16.net enforces better arguments than both, we should stop talking about other forums though.


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## tanlixiang28776

Abhishek_ said:


> i simply queried about martian's status. is he an admin at the echochamber?



If you've ever been on Sinodefence and actually looked at the threads you would realize that theres consistent argument between people. Its probably one of the best run forums out there. Try to compare to some Indian forums......

Your tone of disrespect if completely unwarranted and the only one with actual admin powers is popeye. Pretty sure Martian admins China defence forum not Sinodefence.



gambit said:


> Which are supplied with impeccable sources and key words for anyone to verify. Explain why is it that none have returned with other sources that says I lied or misled people.



That is your own personal opinion. Just like everyone elses. Others don't make up credentials to try to support their opinions like you do.

Your not exempt from that principal.

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## manqiangrexue

Gambit, it's Viet logic messing with you again. It's not that Chinese people don't like to be challenged, it's that you haven't issued a legitimate challenge. Prove your diagrams wrong? That's a challenge? They're not wrong; they just have nothing to do with the conversation. Viet logic.

I can make assumptions because my assumptions are based on common sense. "You change for the better, not for the worse." That's not a stretch at all. When Korean makes an assumption, it's based on what he thinks he knows better than the guys who made the plane. "Make it flatter to make it more maneuverable and stealthier" he said. LOL. This is literally the 3rd time I had to tell you this. Also, I never claimed to know a lot about aircraft but you just threw it in there like I did. If you just don't remember things that happened a few hours ago, you need to remedy your Viet memory and Viet logic with some Viet pills.


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## tanlixiang28776

gambit said:


> Yeah, right...When a certain Chinese member who called himself 'Engineer' declared that the J-20's all-moving vertical stabs are 'more advanced' than the F-22's rudder system, no one challenged him on it despite nearly one hundred years of aviation history that says otherwise.



Pretty sure Mig 29 challenged it. In fact he's challenged pretty much everything in the Airforce section. And Guess what hes not banned like you are.

manqiang just base your arguments on Gambits statements. Not all Vietnamese are like him.


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## manqiangrexue

gambit said:


> Yeah, right...When a certain Chinese member who called himself 'Engineer' declared that the J-20's all-moving vertical stabs are 'more advanced' than the F-22's rudder system, no one challenged him on it despite nearly one hundred years of aviation history that says otherwise.



Gambit, what the heck is this? Are you doing Viet logic again where you ask people to defend the arguments of other people just because they are from the same country? Hey, Ho Chi Minh said he'd rather eat Chinese dung than French food. That's you too from now on just cus you're both Vietnamese. How was your bowl this morning? Was there any corn in it?

100 years of aviation history? In 1912, people knew which jet was gonna have the better rudder between the J-20 and F-22? Viet logic...

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## tanlixiang28776

Manqiang you seem to be a pretty reasonable guy. Don't get dragged down to his level and post personal attacks.


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## manqiangrexue

No no, tanlixiang, this is the only way to deal with people like that. Don't answer his bs. There's no need for any of us to challenge Engineer's statement. I don't know who that is and I never saw the statement. Not all Vietnamese are like him? Dam right! Most of them are proud enough to carry their own flag. But every time he says something, it's, "your Chinese boys said this" or "Chinese physics that" so it's Viet logic from now on. And every time he mentions a post another Chinese person makes to me and asks me about it, I'm gonna tell him to eat Chinese dung like his Viet brother Ho Chi Minh said. That's how you deal with people like that.

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## tanlixiang28776

LOL. Thats actually pretty funny. Two wrongs don't make a right but it sure provides some good humor.

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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Pretty sure Mig 29 challenged it. In fact he's challenged pretty much everything in the Airforce section. And Guess what hes not banned like you are.


He was banned. Several times.



manqiangrexue said:


> *I can make assumptions because my assumptions are based on common sense.* "You change for the better, not for the worse." That's not a stretch at all. When Korean makes an assumption, it's based on what he thinks he knows better than the guys who made the plane. "Make it flatter to make it more maneuverable and stealthier" he said. LOL. This is literally the 3rd time I had to tell you this. Also, I never claimed to know a lot about aircraft but you just threw it in there like I did. If you just don't remember things that happened a few hours ago, you need to remedy your Viet memory and Viet logic with some Viet pills.


And when you are challenged with arguments based upon technical facts, have the decency to admit that you may be wrong. Bottom line is when you make an assumption -- and you have the right to do so in the interest of a discussion -- you are making a judgment call. It may be wrong or it may be correct. But if you do call upon that right and broadcast your judgment for public consumption, respect the fact that others have equal right to rebut, then be man enough to admit when you are wrong.


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## gambit

Esc8781 said:


> F-16.net enforces better arguments than both, we should stop talking about other forums though.


I know a lot of those guys over there from my active duty days. Many of them are retired and I still talk with them in person.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> Its fine to be challenged. Its not fine to be challenged by someone that tries to do so with paper thin credentials and take them as absolute fact.


But it fine to have no experience at all and make claims based upon ignorance.

Yeah...We know how that works...


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## gambit

tanlixiang28776 said:


> People are allowed to make assumptions and their opinions.
> 
> However that is with the full admission it is an opinion.


It does not matter if the poster presented his argument as an 'assumption' or an 'opinion'. As long as he presented himself for public consumption, he is wide open to challenge. And it has been proven over and over that when a Chinese is challenged on the technical front, all the Chinese get their panties in a collective bunch.



tanlixiang28776 said:


> You however pull up credentials no one can verify and state your opinions as fact.
> 
> See the difference?


Ultimately, it is the contents that matter. I do not challenge you on your identity or however you want to present yourself here. I do not present my military experience as a barrier to discussion and told people to shut up. If anything, my military experience was solicited, not voluntarily submitted by me, when others asked. It was an Indonesian suck-up to China who tried to use his made up aviation 'background' and 'study' to shut down the Indians. I have done no such thing.

I consistently provided key words for others to do their own research to verify what I said is true. That is far more than *ALL* the Chinese members here have done in the interests of technical exploration of the things we are interested in.

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## manqiangrexue

No, forget Gambit's credentials. A truck driver isn't a truck designer. You flew airplanes for 20 years? OK, if we ever need to land a jet, I'll trust your knowledge. Designing a jet that's at least one generation ahead of anything you flew? Out of your jurisdiction. Don't even try to pretend you know. It's like walking up to a hospital and asking to become a surgeon because you told them you've dissected dead cats before. It's just not enough. 

You don't think my assumptions are solid? Let's go.

1. J-31 is different from the F-35 from the side view (fact). If they changed it, I assume Shenyang improved it. Otherwise, they would keep the original F-35 configuration. People don't change things to make them worse.

2. J-31 looks like a mash up of the F-22 and F-35 (maybe kinda subjective but I think so). So it seems logical to start with the stolen F-35 plans and generously use parts of the F-22 design to alleviate any short-comings found in the F-35 frame.

Those are my 2 assumptions. I am not 100% certain that they are right but I think they are very reasonable calls. Challenge them with logic if you want but know that at this point it's not possible to prove me wrong because we don't have any info on the jet's performance or development. The best case scenario for you is to come up with a competing theory but given the modesty of my predictions and the earliness of the situation, and despite your desperation to do so, there is no way to prove me wrong at this time.

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## Esc8781

manqiangrexue said:


> No, forget Gambit's credentials. A truck driver isn't a truck designer. You flew airplanes for 20 years? OK, if we ever need to land a jet, I'll trust your knowledge. Designing a jet that a generation ahead of anything you flew? Out of your jurisdiction. You don't think my assumptions are solid? Let's go.
> 
> 1. J-31 is different from the F-35 from the side view (fact). If they changed it, I assume Shenyang improved it. Otherwise, they would keep the original F-35 configuration. People don't change things to make them worse.
> 
> 2. J-31 looks like a mash up of the F-22 and F-35 (maybe kinda subjective but I think so). So it seems logical to start with the stolen F-35 plans and generously use parts of the F-22 design to alleviate any weaknesses found in the F-35 frame.
> 
> Those are my 2 assumptions. I am not 100% certain that they are right but I think they are very reasonable calls. Challenge them with logic if you want but know that at this point it's not possible to prove me wrong because we don't have any info on the jet's performance or development. The best case scenario for you is to come up with a competing theory but given the modesty of my predictions and the earliness of the situation, despite your desperation to do so, there is no way to prove me wrong at this time.


 Still far from the pre production level though , let's see what they change on the next prototype.


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## Vitchilo

It seems nice and all but does it have the engines needed for it to be potent?? That's the main problem with Chinese warplanes. Engines. Especially when you need to do supercruise for lots of time...

Get good or excellent at building good engines with good reliability and you will have a force to recon with. Until then, not to much.


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## manqiangrexue

Vitchilo said:


> It seems nice and all but does it have the engines needed for it to be potent?? That's the main problem with Chinese warplanes. Engines. Especially when you need to do supercruise for lots of time...
> 
> Get good or excellent at building good engines with good reliability and you will have a force to recon with. Until then, not to much.



A valid point. Because of the nature of engines, it is very difficult to tell where the Chinese are in terms of developing the WS-13 and WS-15. Everything could be falling apart or they could have satisfactory prototypes ready to install once the air-frames are past the testing phase (since they might not wanna install test engines on a test frame). Don't think anyone other than a real insider could get you that info, and for the engine's power in kN, gonna be impossible to know for sure maybe until the Chinese publicize the info. Best wishes to the uber nerds smart enough to lose sleep working on that thing


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> You don't think my assumptions are solid? Let's go.
> 
> 1. J-31 is different from the F-35 from the side view (fact). *If they changed it, I assume Shenyang improved it.* Otherwise, they would keep the original F-35 configuration. People don't change things to make them worse.
> 
> 2. J-31 looks like a mash up of the F-22 and F-35 (maybe kinda subjective but I think so). So it seems logical to start with the stolen F-35 plans and generously use parts of the F-22 design to alleviate any short-comings found in the F-35 frame.


The highlighted is where you are wrong. It is both an assumption and a hope. It is a reasonable assumption because no one want to degrade an existing design. It is a hope because you do not know what entails in designing an aircraft.

The heart of *ANY* aircraft is not the pilot, who is the brain, but propulsion.

For example...

In a pusher prop job, prop wash produces a twisting force around the fuselage and eventually on the left side of the vertical stab, the pilot must produce a counter yaw with the rudder pedals to maintain straight heading. This effect does not exist with a jet engine aircraft, therefore we have a much greater latitude in designing our fuselage.

Pusher configuration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> When a propeller is mounted in front of the tail changes in engine power alter the airflow over the tail and can give strong pitch or yaw changes.


What this mean is that even if you copied exactly down to the rivet locations of an existing aircraft but you do not have the comparable propulsion, your copy will not fly, or it will fly like sh1t. Even worse so if you try to 'hybridize' two different designs into one that you hope that you improve.

Propulsion make or break an aircraft design. Very often propulsion actually determined how an aircraft will turn out despite the initial 'request for proposal' (RFP) that contains the original desired specs.

If you do not know what is an RFP, here is a sample...

REQUEST FOR PROPOSAL


> 3. Design Requirements
> 
> 3.1 General
> 
> The aircraft must meet the appropriate FAR part requirements for airworthiness.
> The aircraft must be designed for a crew of two pilots (220 lbs each).
> There are no minimum speed or ceiling requirements for the aircraft.
> Maximum takeoff and landing distances for a land-based aircraft are 1000 feet on an unimproved field.
> The aircraft must have a ferry range of 1800 Nmi (no fuel reserves).
> 
> 3.2 Mission
> 
> The aircraft should be designed as a short-haul delivery aircraft. For the design mission, it must carry four passengers with luggage (220 lbs/passenger) and have a cargo capacity of 2800 lbs and 240 cubic feet (5´ 6´ 8). The design mission consists of
> 
> Takeoff on a tropical day (sea level, 90 degrees F) at design takeoff weight.
> Cruise 75 Nmi.
> Land under tropical-day conditions.
> Takeoff at design takeoff weight.
> Cruise 75 Nmi
> Land under tropical-day conditions.
> Perform three round trips per day without refueling.
> FAR fuel reserves.


To go back to the truck versus sports car analogy, if Italy can either manufacture only truck tires or import only truck tires, Lamborghini would be a truck designer/manufacturer.

Land based engines are not as weight critical as sea based engines. The latter should be designed with fuel economy more in mind than the former because fuel access at sea can be limited. Reasonable, ain't it? That give engines designed for land based fighters much more latitudes in specs, which in turn will affect airframe designs. This fact is lost on the F-35's critics because it is designed to be multi-service in much more diverse environments.

Appearances can be deceiving. On the one hand, it is unreasonable to base one's assumptions of an airframe based upon only appearance, but on the other hand, when there is a breakthrough in technology as in the F-16's fly-by-wire FLCS, the responses of that flight controls technology enabled us to break free of the airframe design constraints back at that time. When I joined the USAF back in 1983, fly-by-wire FLCS is a novelty in the F-16 but if form follows function, anyone from aircraft designer to a mechanic who looked at the F-16 immediately recognized its form as the result of a radical functioning FLCS. Every designer knew of pitch instability as the key to exceptional maneuverability but no one dared design an airframe around it because no pilot or hydro-mechanical FLCS, even computer assisted ones, could handle it. Until General Dynamics proved it could be done. Since then, every fighter is FBW-FLCS.

So what this mean is that *IF* you have any common sense like you claimed to have, you would have realized that it is absurd to simply look at an aircraft that looks similar to an existing design and declare that the new version is better.



manqiangrexue said:


> Those are my 2 assumptions. I am not 100% certain that they are right but I think they are very reasonable calls. Challenge them with logic if you want but know that at this point it's not possible to prove me wrong because we don't have any info on the jet's performance or development. The best case scenario for you is to come up with a competing theory but given the modesty of my predictions and the earliness of the situation, and despite your desperation to do so, *there is no way to prove me wrong at this time.*


So what this mean is that you can make any claims you want and the burden of disprove is upon the skeptic. That is not how logical debates works. The burden of proof *ALWAYS* rests upon the claimant. And if you are willing to say you could be wrong, then be man enough to admit when your assumptions/claims are doubtful or concede the point when outright debunked.

You are not interested in logical debates. Not one of the Chinese members here do. All of you are grossly defensive and sensitive about your lack of relevant experience and therefore often resorted to personal attacks when your claims are challenged.


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## krash

So mods your just going to let another thread turn into "the juvenile quarrels between China and Gambit"? Or are you going to throw some warnings and bans around?

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## mil-avia

*J-31 stealth fighter aircraft bottom view : 








Related link 1 and link 2. *

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## mil-avia

*J-31 stealth fighter aircraft weapon bays : 







Related link 1 and link 2. *

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## killerx

the engine in the right looks bit bent to the ground is it TVC or both engines in different throttle position


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## kawaraj

I just like this super black color, cool bird.



itaskol said:


> Gyrfalcon


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## manqiangrexue

Man, Gambit, you just don't quit. You always wanna come out the winner, wanna make people think you're better... but you're just NOT. 

I talk about the airframe of a prototype and you try to bring up the quality of PILOTS?? Viet logic. Way off topic, no points.

Next one, the propulsion may be inadequate. But, this has been discussed before; Vitchilo brought it up 2 posts before you. No way you can prove that China has sufficient engines and no way to prove they don't. I'm only making assumptions about the air frame, not the engine.

Then, you bring up the point that mashing up 2 jets together may be detrimental. You have half a point there, but that's assuming that the engineers don't know what they're doing and are just mashing stuff together randomly. A real team of engineers with testing equipment would probably intelligently use the strengths of each airframe to complement the weaknesses of the other. And since the F-35 and F-22 were made to complement each other in the first place, this seems like something Shenyang would do.

Finally, your burden of proof: there is none. This is not court. It is already a given that nothing can be proven now. Everything is a theory now. Korean's statements were all theories too, but I pointed out that they were highly illogical, although, since they cannot be disproven, they are not technically impossible. Everything you say is just a theory too. If it is against mine, they are competing theories, like evolution vs. creationism. There is no burden of proof because proof is impossible in this situation. You're gonna have to give this one up; you're not gonna come out on top.

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## doidoi2

manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit, the truck driver may know more than me, but I know he doesn't know enough to tell me how the next Lamborghini should be designed. Understand this: just because you flew jets for 20 years doesn't mean you know how to design a stealth fighter. You may know more than the layman, but you still don't know anything compared to people who design these things and you don't know enough to explain them accurately.
> 
> I understand your concept of "Chinese physics" now. It means physics that are too complicated for you to understand. Any physics beyond your basic principles cartoon is considered "Chinese physics" by you. If you didn't learn it, it's considered Chinese.
> 
> Your founding principles google cartoon is trash. You heard it at orientation, googled up a pic, and thought this is the bible to making stealth jets. In all classes, we learn founding principles on the first day. If it was the third grade, those principles stood till the last day. In college, we learned exceptions as the class progressed. In a PhD level course, by the end of the course, the founding principles were shot so full of holes you'd fail the final for sure if you stuck by them because every test question was on how to solve an exception to the rule. The more complex, the less you can simply apply "founding principles" and you bring your google cartoon to discuss stealth jets like you know how things work. "Chinese physics" is all the exceptions and bypasses to your "founding principles".
> 
> Dude, I never saw the J-10 to F-35 video and even if I did see the title, I'd never click on it because I know the "vs." things by forum addicts are basically worth toenail clippings in terms of their ability to predict a real outcome. The jet you think would win is most highly probably the one your country made, no matter where you're from. (Iran: Our bootleg F-5 with 2 vertical stabilizers would totally kill the Raptor because this:..... LOL) Don't know why you brought it up at all, because a Chinese person once said it?
> 
> My points:
> 1. J-31 seems to look like a F-22/F-35 hybrid so it probably incorporates the best of both, because it doesn't make sense to incorporate the worst of both.
> 2. Change in design usually reflects improvement.
> 3. I might be wrong; the true indicator of the jet's performance (other than war, of course) is whether or not the PLAN and PLAAF choose to buy it.
> 
> Korean's points:
> 1. It's not flat enough to be a maneuverable fighter. (Oh, really! Someone quickly tell Shenyang to flatten it, cus they didn't know that!)
> 2. The nose/cockpit/air intakes look like F-35 so it's sluggish. (Sure, no need to compare wings, stabilizers or anything, cus those don't matter in terms of maneuvering the jet.)
> 3. It must have low range because it has 2 engines and is roughly similarly sized to the F-35. (Sure, all engines are exactly the same in terms of fuel consumption. Also, the space that held a VTOL fan in the F-35 is probably filled with foam and bubble wrap in the Chinese version. Couldn't possibly be used for extra fuel or weapons bays.)
> 4. The Chinese probably stole the F-35 design, didn't analyze it despite massive criticism, and copied it with all its flaws. (Yeah, sounds like a good plan to me, must sound like a great plan to military scientists; let's do that.)
> 
> Instead of slamming other people's stealth fighters with analyses that has more holes in it than Swiss cheese after a shoot-out with Al Pacino (probably not as clever a joke as I thought LOL), Korean should be praying (or working on it, if he's that great) that the KFX gets off paper in the next decade.
> 
> If you think my arguments and Korean's arguments are the same in terms of assumptions, then it's pretty clear why you relegated from Air Force to internet forums.



People like gambit are just really amateurs with a chip on their shoulder. They say things like you chinese boys and Chinese physics because they seek approval from others who hate China. They feel like they're not getting the recognition they deserve, so they attack and belittle others and their achievements. You really shouldn't argue with the poor man. The guys probably had a rough life, that's why he needs to feel important on an internet forum. 

As for me, I could care less what people say about the capabilities of this bird on the web. It's pretty obvious that China has made huge strides in aerospace, and people are both jealous and fearful. I don't blame them. It's simply human nature.

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## Banglar Lathial

At this stage, there is little publicly available information to make reasonable judgements about the plane. Hope that more information will be released in the near future on this plane which looks like a great plane for potential export customers.


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Man, Gambit, you just don't quit. You always wanna come out the winner, wanna make people think you're better... but you're just NOT.


And you do not? 



manqiangrexue said:


> I talk about the airframe of a prototype and you try to bring up the quality of PILOTS?? Viet logic. Way off topic, no points.


And for missing the point, that is a subtraction for you.



manqiangrexue said:


> Next one, the propulsion may be inadequate. But, this has been discussed before; Vitchilo brought it up 2 posts before you. No way you can prove that China has sufficient engines and no way to prove they don't. *I'm only making assumptions about the air frame, not the engine.*


And if you have any experience at all or wise enough to listen, you would not make such an assumption.



manqiangrexue said:


> Then, you bring up the point that mashing up 2 jets together may be detrimental. You have half a point there, *but that's assuming that the engineers don't know what they're doing and are just mashing stuff together randomly.* A real team of engineers with testing equipment would probably intelligently use the strengths of each airframe to complement the weaknesses of the other. And since the F-35 and F-22 were made to complement each other in the first place, this seems like something Shenyang would do.


That is where you are wrong and again missed the point, due to your non experience in aviation. When aviation engineers collaborate, especially when each of the team came from different projects or even different sub-disciplines, and the goal is to create a new design incorporating (hopefully) the best features of previous designs, they do not set out to create something that is better, even though that is the hope, and there is nothing with hoping that you will produce a superior product. With an airframe, they look at the RFP, they select the propulsion unit that is best match for that RFP, then they design the airframe around that engine.

For example...

The Lockheed F-104 "Star Fighter"


> In particular, the new *West German Luftwaffe* was in need of a supersonic replacement for its Canadair Sabres and Republic F-84F Thunderstreak combat aircraft, and that service *issued a request for proposals.*
> 
> On October 31, 1952, Johnson presented the CL-246 proposal to Lockheed management. They were enthusiastic, and gave him the go-ahead to present it to the Air Force. Even though the USAF did not have a standing requirement for such a fighter, the USAF thought sufficiently highly of the general idea that they issued a General Operational Requirement on December 12, 1952 for a lightweight air-superiority fighter to replace the North American F-100 in the Tactical Air Command beginning in 1956. However, in order to be completely fair, the USAF had to request competitive bids for the project from the aviation industry.
> 
> In response to the *request for proposals*, Republic submitted its Model AP-55, based on its XF-91 Thunderceptor, but with a solid rounded nose and NASA-developed flush-type engine air intakes. North American submitted its Model NA-212, which was an advanced version of the Super Sabre which eventually emerged as the F-107. Northrop submitted its Model N-102 Fang, a proposal for a J79-powered aircraft fed by a ventral, bifurcated air intake.
> 
> The engine was to be the General Electric J79 engine, which was currently under development. It was an outgrowth of the J73 and was known at that time only as the J73-GE-X24A. The proposed J79 was to be capable of producing 9000 lb.s.t. dry and 15,000 lb.s.t. with afterburning. It was designed to be capable of Mach 2 performance. Since the advanced J79 would not be available for several years, the afterburning Wright J65-W-7 was selected as an interim propulsion system for the first few examples.


So what we have here are at least two RFPs from different governments and several competitors responded. I have no doubt, absolutely 100% confident, that the PLAAF works the same way. The PLAAF issued the Chinese equivalent of an RFP, and at least two Chinese aviation companies responded. The PLAAF is fully within rights to issue the same RFP to foreign manufacturers as well. The Chinese engineers then looked at what the PLAAF issued, what Chinese aviation is capable of, and what has been done before by other countries.

If they decided to cobble together a final design based upon foreign designs, and might as well admit that they did, then we can be assured that final design is based upon the best available propulsion that Chinese manufacturers can come up with, not with foreign sources because no Western government is going to allow its best engine to be in the aircraft of a potential adversary.

That mean I assumed nothing and that I speak from a base of relevant experience. More than you can say for yourself. The point is not to say definitively either way. The point is what I have always advocated since the J-20 was just a speculation: Wait.

But apparently that is too much to ask.



manqiangrexue said:


> Finally, your burden of proof: there is none. This is not court. It is already a given that nothing can be proven now. Everything is a theory now. Korean's statements were all theories too, but I pointed out that they were highly illogical, although, *since they cannot be disproven, they are not technically impossible.* Everything you say is just a theory too. If it is against mine, they are competing theories, like evolution vs. creationism.  There is no burden of proof because proof is impossible in this situation. You're gonna have to give this one up; you're not gonna come out on top.


Good. Then I claim that the F-22 is mind controlled by either the pilot or from a ground controller, that it has death rays with a thousand km distance, that it is nuclear powered, and that we have at least ten thousands of them hidden in underground hangars.

Now prove me wrong.


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## gambit

Banglar Lathial said:


> At this stage, there is little publicly available information to make reasonable judgements about the plane. Hope that more information will be released in the near future on this plane which looks like a great plane for potential export customers.


This is where you are wrong. Since this is a Chinese aircraft, only Chinese are allowed to make assumptions, no matter how wild they may be. And if anyone challenge those assumptions, even if credibly supported, the challenger is a racist troll.


----------



## ptldM3

gambit said:


> This is where you are wrong. Since this is a Chinese aircraft, only Chinese *are allowed to make assumptions*, no matter how wild they may be. And if anyone challenge those assumptions, even if credibly supported, the challenger is a racist troll.




And make they do. The assmptions are more than just assumptions, most of the time they defy physics. In any case the typical assumptions have been: the pak-fa is garbage, the F-35 is cheap, the F-22 is outdated, the Rafale and Typhoon will be swiped from the sky by the might dragon.


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## April.lyrics

gambit said:


> When aviation engineers collaborate, especially when each of the team came from different projects or even different sub-disciplines, and the goal is to create a new design incorporating (hopefully) the best features of previous designs, they do not set out to create something that is better, even though that is the hope, and there is nothing with hoping that you will produce a superior product. With an airframe, they look at the RFP, they select the propulsion unit that is best match for that RFP, then they design the airframe around that engine.
> 
> For example...
> 
> The Lockheed F-104 "Star Fighter"
> 
> So what we have here are at least two RFPs from different governments and several competitors responded. I have no doubt, absolutely 100% confident, that the PLAAF works the same way. The PLAAF issued the Chinese equivalent of an RFP, and at least two Chinese aviation companies responded. The PLAAF is fully within rights to issue the same RFP to foreign manufacturers as well. The Chinese engineers then looked at what the PLAAF issued, what Chinese aviation is capable of, and what has been done before by other countries.
> 
> If they decided to cobble together a final design based upon foreign designs, and might as well admit that they did, then we can be assured that final design is based upon the best available propulsion that Chinese manufacturers can come up with, not with foreign sources because no Western government is going to allow its best engine to be in the aircraft of a potential adversary.



mostly agreed.



> since the J-20 was just a speculation



where i dont understand. do u mean J-20 is not to be a eligible 4th gen fighter?


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## gambit

April.lyrics said:


> where i dont understand. do u mean J-20 is not to be a eligible 4th gen fighter?


What I meant was that even when the J-20 was just a collection of 'fanboy' computer images, I advocated everyone to wait before making assumptions and I mocked those who did. And guess who usually did?  And if a person is willing to put his reputation on the line and make assumptions, then do some research into basic aerodynamics and avionics and try to stay within reasonable orbit of those established fields. And guess who usually did not?


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## conworldus

killerx said:


> the engine in the right looks bit bent to the ground is it TVC or both engines in different throttle position



If the western speculation of this jet using the Russian RD-93 is correct, then what you see is probably just heat distortion since the RD-93 is not TVC.

Anyways, I just glad to see that 601 is catching up with their own stealth jet. Even if the PLA doesn't buy it, this jet may find users in South America, Africa, Central and Southeast Asia, Middle East, and who knows maybe eastern European countries. It certainly looks like a very versatile and affordable fighter.


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## cirr

The PLAAF version of this &#8220;bird&#8221; is much more fun&#65292;not to mention the carrier borne variant&#12290;

The &#8220;basic&#8221; type we are seeing today is for export&#12290;


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## conworldus

cirr said:


> The PLAAF version of this &#8220;bird&#8221; is much more fun&#65292;not to mention the carrier borne variant&#12290;
> 
> The &#8220;basic&#8221; type we are seeing today is for export&#12290;




I don't think there is a PLAAF version. A twin engine small jet like this will have very limited range. I am not sure what this is good for. The Air Force needs heavy jets like J-20 and single engine jets like J-10B...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Some where in Pentegon a redneck must be having diarrhea

F-35 -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarrhea


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## cirr

conworldus said:


> I don't think there is a PLAAF version. A twin engine small jet like this will have very limited range. I am not sure what this is good for. The Air Force needs heavy jets like J-20 and single engine jets like J-10B...



That's how you think&#65292;which is nowhere near the truth&#12290;

There is no point in speculating at this stage&#12290;Time will tell everything&#12290;


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-5th-generation-j-20-j-31-pics-videos-15.html


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## eachus

ptldM3 said:


> And make they do. The assmptions are more than just assumptions, most of the time they defy physics. In any case the typical assumptions have been: the pak-fa is garbage, the F-35 is cheap, the F-22 is outdated, the Rafale and Typhoon will be swiped from the sky by the might dragon.




your correct! Russian T50 is not stealthy, you can call it Su30 upgrade or whatever you like. Rafale and Typhoon are even not in the same class, let them be. 

Now, F22, J20 and F35 are in the top end, J31 looks pretty cool except the temporary engines. T50 follows behind has too much to polish --- right now between 4G and 5G. is that fare?


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## manqiangrexue

Gambit, what's the point of bringing up the pilot in a debate about a prototype machine? It's not a debate about whether a Chinese pilot flying this would beat an American pilot in an F-35. This jet's not mature enough to even think about that scenario. If there's a point, what is it? It only exists in Viet logic and my mind doesn't work in that cockroach way so I won't get it.

I said it's impossible to disprove about THIS jet because we only saw it in 4 pictures and it never flew so we don't know enough for anything to be proven or dis-proven about THIS jet. That doesn't apply to all the jets flying in the world. Viet logic AGAIN from you.

Stop it with Viet logic. It's getting tiresome, more so than "Chinese physics" (by the way, I haven't been here for long, but during the time I'm here, I've not seen any Chinese person make claims about physics, only you talking about how other people do this).

Your theory that the changes are due to accommodate different engine design and not genuine improvements is noted. That's an alternate theory to mine and that's all. Don't treat your theories as proven. Don't try to make it like you're right and I'm wrong. It's not possible for that to be proven as it pertains to this jet right now.

Stop telling other people they don't have aviation experience and you do. You don't. You flew jets, and it's not experience designing jets. You are just the same as everyone else. If you designed a stealth jet, tell me the model, then I will acknowledge that you are an expert. If you didn't, then you are just as inexperienced as everyone else. 

I'm doing you a huge favor by giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying that I believe you flew jets for 20 years. Even that much is not proven. You didn't show a certificate or any kind of proof. To recap, this is how far away you are from being respected as an expert: 1. You have shown no proof at all that you flew jets for 20 years. 2. Even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and say that it's true, it doesn't mean you have experience in stealth jet design. I know a guy who's dad's a crazy redneck who keeps telling people gruesome stories about his adventures as a US soldier in Vietnam. The crazy part: He's never left Texas before in his life. That could be you.

Oh, and I like how you said you were 100% sure how the PLAAF works. A Vietnamese in America thinks he knows how China's military works and is 100% sure. Never heard such crap before. By the way, all the Americans who thought they knew 100% how the Chinese military worked, have their bones scattered all over North Korea right now.

I never said I'm better at this; I know I'm not. I'm just saying you're not better either and that's difficult for you to swallow because you came in here thinking that having flown jets for 20 ears, everyone would respect you as the guru. It's not happening.

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## eachus

gambit said:


> You don't think my assumptions are solid? Let's go.
> 
> 1. J-31 is different from the F-35 from the side view (fact). If they changed it, I assume Shenyang improved it. Otherwise, they would keep the original F-35 configuration. People don't change things to make them worse.
> 
> 2. J-31 looks like a mash up of the F-22 and F-35 (maybe kinda subjective but I think so). So it seems logical to start with the stolen F-35 plans and generously use parts of the F-22 design to alleviate any short-comings found in the F-35 frame.
> Original Post By manqiangrexue
> 
> The highlighted is where you are wrong. It is both an assumption and a hope. It is a reasonable assumption because no one want to degrade an existing design. It is a hope because you do not know what entails in designing an aircraft.
> 
> The heart of *ANY* aircraft is not the pilot, who is the brain, but propulsion.
> 
> For example...
> 
> In a pusher prop job, prop wash produces a twisting force around the fuselage and eventually on the left side of the vertical stab, the pilot must produce a counter yaw with the rudder pedals to maintain straight heading. This effect does not exist with a jet engine aircraft, therefore we have a much greater latitude in designing our fuselage.
> 
> Pusher configuration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> What this mean is that even if you copied exactly down to the rivet locations of an existing aircraft but you do not have the comparable propulsion, your copy will not fly, or it will fly like sh1t. Even worse so if you try to 'hybridize' two different designs into one that you hope that you improve.




I am sure the manufacture of Shenyang J31 knows what they are doing. 
I deed they avoided the problem 35 has, too fat, too heavy. 
the J31 goal is very simple and clear, air superiority for navy and export market. 
yes will be low cost mid size fighter. we can see the stealthy is still in priority, 
J31 will have a fight with F35 is what their main goal. 

Chinese are little different to the west, domestic firm are mostly state owned, 
they are competing with each other and also cooperate with each other. 
At the time Chendu designed and tested DSI intake on FC1, ShenYang, XiAn 
and other companies were already started sharing the technology. 
even the engineers they can be shared. That is why Chinese growth these 5G like mushrooms.
Chinese are very efficient in budget and time. 


J31 will be around the same size as F35, lighter, slimmer, faster. maybe with smaller
front RCS. if one day J31 vs F35 one to one, they will have a fight. J31 will 
have less function than F35. J31 price tab will be a big surprise, can be 25% ~ 30% of F35.

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## amalakas

eachus said:


> your correct! *Russian T50 is not stealthy*, you can call it Su30 upgrade or whatever you like. Rafale and Typhoon are even not in the same class, let them be.
> 
> Now, F22, J20 and F35 are in the top end, J31 looks pretty cool except the temporary engines. T50 follows behind has too much to polish --- right now between 4G and 5G. is that fare?





eachus said:


> *I am sure the manufacture of Shenyang J31 knows what they are doing. *
> I deed they avoided the problem 35 has, too fat, too heavy.
> the J31 goal is very simple and clear, air superiority for navy and export market.
> yes will be low cost mid size fighter. we can see the stealthy is still in priority,
> J31 will have a fight with F35 is what their main goal.
> 
> Chinese are little different to the west, domestic firm are mostly state owned,
> they are competing with each other and also cooperate with each other.
> At the time Chendu designed and tested DSI intake on FC1, ShenYang, XiAn
> and other companies were already started sharing the technology.
> even the engineers they can be shared. That is why Chinese growth these 5G like mushrooms.
> Chinese are very efficient in budget and time.
> 
> 
> J31 will be around the same size as F35, lighter, slimmer, faster. maybe with smaller
> front RCS. if one day J31 vs F35 one to one, they will have a fight. J31 will
> have less function than F35. J31 price tab will be a big surprise, can be 25% ~ 30% of F35.




But apparently the manufacturers of T-50, which by the way have far bigger experience in making planes, apparently do not know what they are doing. Nice logic there mate!


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## danger007

eachus said:


> your correct! Russian T50 is not stealthy, you can call it Su30 upgrade or whatever you like. Rafale and Typhoon are even not in the same class, let them be.
> 
> Now, F22, J20 and F35 are in the top end, J31 looks pretty cool except the temporary engines. T50 follows behind has too much to polish --- right now between 4G and 5G. is that fare?




 great development sir.. lolz


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## antonius123

amalakas said:


> But apparently the manufacturers of T-50, which by the way have far bigger experience in making planes, apparently do not know what they are doing. Nice logic there mate!



Maybe limited budget and weak r&d cause that

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

I don't give a Rat A$$ for any who want to criticize this bird, China should move forward even with handicap, we're unstoppable unless if we give up...but now enjoy some nice artworks

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## doidoi2

amalakas said:


> But apparently the manufacturers of T-50, which by the way have far bigger experience in making planes, apparently do not know what they are doing. Nice logic there mate!



I dunno, I wanna like the T-50, but a casual glance at pics shows the level of worksmanship leaves much to be desired. The ill-fitting panels, various bumps and rivets. Compare that to the J-20, you can barely see the seams. In fact the seams are fitted so perfectly that people actually debated whether or not the J-20 had a weapons bay when it first came out. 

That said, I do have confidence that the Russians will fix things when the final version comes out. The Russians are still ahead of the Chinese in many areas of Aerospace. It's tough to beat the decades of Soviet Aerospace experience that the Russians have.

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## BanglaBhoot

*By James Hardy*

Chinas defense industry seems to be up to its new trick of unveiling its latest toy when a senior U.S. official visits Beijing.

Following the playbook established in January 2011 when Chengdus J-20 stealth fighter had its maiden test flight just in time to overshadow the visit of then-Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, rival aerospace firm Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) accidentally-on-purpose allowed some high-definition images of its own fifth-generation fighter jet to appear on the web over the weekend. Coincidentally, current Pentagon chief Leon Panetta had just kicked off an Asian tour that included a stopover in Beijing.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton may have been on the end of a similar welcome when she visited China in early September. Grainy images of the PLA Navys latest destroyer, the Type 052D, turned up on the web along with a Global Times story just as CCP heir apparent Xi Jinping vanished for two weeks.

In truth, the Shen Fei (or Falcon Eagle), as SAC appears to have nicknamed the aircraft judging from its tail markings, is less of a mystery than the J-20 was when it emerged. As J. Michael Cole noted here in August, a Shen Fei-shaped airframe covered in camouflaged webbing enjoyed a well-publicized tour of Chinas road network in June on its way from Shenyang to the China Flight Test Establishment at Xian-Yanglian Airbase, Shaanxi Province.

Now the wraps are off, its clear that the Shen Fei is based on a design dubbed the F-60 that has been doing the rounds as a model aircraft since at least September 2011. Described by IHS Janes aviation expert Robert Hewson as an F-35-sized F-22, it is much closer in platform than the J-20 to these two Lockheed Martin designs, which are fulfilling the U.S. next-generation manned fighter requirements.

Some argue that the Shen Fei is a result of some pretty serious cyber-espionage, which may explain why Panetta brought up "the growing threat posed to both economic and security interests by cyber intrusions" in his meeting with Chinese Defense Minister General Liang Guanglie on September 18. And although Western intelligence officials regularly imply that Chinese technological advances are aided by the dark arts, a glance at the F-22, F-35, Russias T-50 PAK FA and Japans ATD-X show that stealthy fifth-generation fighters tend to have a similar platform.

The Shen Fei and J-20 continue this trend, but the complexities of modern fighter aircraft design and production suggest that theres still plenty of work for both SAC and Chengdu to do before they can compete with Russia and the West. As Lockheed Martin has found out with the both the F-22 and the F-35, fifth-generation fighters are hard to get right: the F-22 was recently grounded with a system problem that was causing pilots to black out, while the F-35 is behind schedule, over budget and testing the patience of the U.S. Air Force to the limits.

The key challenge facing Chinese designers is not in coming up with a stealthy platform, but the systems that go inside it. These include electro-optic sensors and an AESA fire-control radar  a generational jump in technology that comes as standard on F-35s and F-22s; stealthy coatings; and reliable engines. The latter are a particular bugbear for China, which has for years relied on Russian technology to power its fast jets. Many Western observers believe the Shen Fei is powered by two Russian-sourced Klimov RD-93 turbofans, reinforcing perceptions that this particular weakness is holding China back. The fact that the same images show that these engines appear to be ill-fitting suggests that Shenyang may be following the lead of Chengdu, which is believed to be trying out a number of different engines on the J-20. 

But in other ways the Shen Fei is different from the J-20. Its unveiling did not include a test flight or state media coverage and it is not painted in PLA Air Force colors or markings. That suggests that it may be a company-financed project and would also corroborate reports that Chengdu beat SAC with the J-20 to provide the PLAAF with its fifth-gen fighter. Then again, the two platforms differing size also supports assertions that they could have different roles: the J-20 a long-range strike aircraft, with the Shen Fei acting as an air-superiority fighter.

As with most indigenous Chinese military programs, much is shrouded in mystery and speculation. The Shen Feis twin-wheel nose gear has led some to argue that it could be a future carrier fighter (on account of the reinforced undercarriage that most carrier-based aircraft are fitted with). Alternatively, it could be that SAC has just borrowed the technology from the Sukhoi Su-33-derived J-15 that it is building for the PLA Navy.

Either way, the Shen Feis appearance after years of rumors, scale models and surreal sightings has confirmed one thing: that China-watching occasionally has its benefits. Given Beijings punitive attitude to official secrets and the understandable concern around the Asia-Pacific region at its myriad military programs, its a relief that this 21st century version of Kremlinology pays off, at least some of the time.

China&#8217;s New Stealth Fighter Gambit | The Diplomat


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## Esc8781

doidoi2 said:


> I dunno, I wanna like the T-50, but a casual glance at pics shows the level of worksmanship leaves much to be desired. The ill-fitting panels, various bumps and rivets. Compare that to the J-20, you can barely see the seams. In fact the seams are fitted so perfectly that people actually debated whether or not the J-20 had a weapons bay when it first came out.
> 
> That said, I do have confidence that the Russians will fix things when the final version comes out. The Russians are still ahead of the Chinese in many areas of Aerospace. It's tough to beat the decades of Soviet Aerospace experience that the Russians have.


 Umm.. because its black.


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## doidoi2

Esc8781 said:


> Umm.. because its black.



ummm... no. Look at the smooth texture of the underbelly.


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Your theory that the changes are due to accommodate different engine design and not genuine improvements is noted. That's an alternate theory to mine and that's all. Don't treat your theories as proven. Don't try to make it like you're right and I'm wrong. It's not possible for that to be proven as it pertains to this jet right now.


That is no mere 'theory'. That relationship is a fact.

Evidence 1...

Airframe and Powerplant | Aircraft Mechanic | Schools | A&P License

There is a reason why we have an 'airframe and powerplant' licence. Can you finger it out?

Evidence 2...

icas-proceedings.net/ICAS2000/PAPERS/ICA6103.PDF


> Introduction
> 
> Propulsion airframe integration presents unique challenges to the development of an aircraft system. Many of these challenges arise from *the fact that the airframe integration issues involve major interfaces between aircraft and engine* manufacturers. Good working relationships [1,2] between these two entities is essential for a successful business venture.



Evidence 3...

NASA - Small Aircraft Propulsion: The Future Is Here


> The new GAP engines will change all of that, along with our ideas about what general aviation propulsion systems can be. With their smooth, quiet operation, they provide comfort never before enjoyed in general aviation light aircraft. *New engines are crucial to truly new airplane designs.* The GAP engines are bringing about a revolution in light aircraft affordability, ease of use, and performance.



Evidence 4...

U.S. Supersonic Commercial Aircraft: Assessing NASA's High Speed Research Program


> This chapter concentrates on technology and systems integration...
> 
> Achieving this goal requires overcoming adverse *interactions involving the pilot, airframe, propulsion system, and flight control system.* This report refers collectively to the last three as the APSE (aero/propulsive/servo/elastic) system.



Evidence 5...

Airframe-Propulsion Integration for Future Aircraft Systems


> Specific *airframe-propulsion integration* problems for mixed mission aircraft are discussed...



In other words, it is intellectually hazardous to divorce propulsion from overall design. Even ship hull designs are affected by flow dynamics and a ship do not need to move to stay afloat while an aircraft must move in order to stay airborne. So what make *YOU* such an authority that you can perform such a technical divorce and make assumptions? I challenge you to dispute even just one of the above five sources.

If a request for proposal (RFP) from the customer seemingly demand a propulsion method/technology not yet available -- *YOU* design that new method/technology. Which is what Lockheed did with the J58 engine in order to meet the SR-71's RFP.






For the above example, which engine is going to have a much higher throttle cycling and therefore demand a much more responsive engine? The fighter aircraft engine, of course. And how many cargo aircrafts out there that look like an F-4 or an F-15? None.






For the above example, both engine *TYPES* share a common bond -- multiple fan stages. But look at their radical differences beyond that common bond. Look at the human figures included for scale. Now guess which engine design is for a lumbering and steady state cargo airframe.

You should not make assumptions on an airframe without considering its propulsion: real, potential, or interim.

This is why it is so fun to debate you Chinese boys. And given my experience, a little bit sadistic, I admit...


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## manqiangrexue

Ah, you're using Viet logic quite copiously I see. Your diagrams, once again, while true, have no point. No one ever questioned the fact that engines on a fighter are designed differently from a cargo jet. 

The point is that there are many changes on the J-31 from the F-35. Do those changes reflect adaptations to different engine layout or are they genuine aerodynamic improvements? Or both? 

Your diagrams address none of that. This is a classic example of hiding behind facts. Someone too stupid to understand them might be fooled into thinking that you took a logical approach and supported it with evidence. But someone who looks a little deeper sees you just submitted 2 pages of oral diarrhea. 

If you really think you're making good points, it's probably because you're way too old for debating anyway. Pills time, gramps.

Your "experience"?? The ones you claim to have but don't prove? There's a lot more liars in America than air force pilots so statistically speaking, if you don't provide a certificate, you're the former.

I really like how you used the word, "sadistic". You know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of what the US did to Vietnam in 1969. And when you hear "sadistic", what word comes to mind? Masochistic! And that's you for joining the air force that did this to your country (if, that is, in fact what you did, which is quite questionable without any kind of evidence).

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## Esc8781

eachus said:


> I am sure the manufacture of Shenyang J31 knows what they are doing.
> I deed they avoided the problem 35 has, too fat, too heavy.
> the J31 goal is very simple and clear, air superiority for navy and export market.
> yes will be low cost mid size fighter. we can see the stealthy is still in priority,
> J31 will have a fight with F35 is what their main goal.
> 
> Chinese are little different to the west, domestic firm are mostly state owned,
> they are competing with each other and also cooperate with each other.
> At the time Chendu designed and tested DSI intake on FC1, ShenYang, XiAn
> and other companies were already started sharing the technology.
> even the engineers they can be shared. That is why Chinese growth these 5G like mushrooms.
> Chinese are very efficient in budget and time.
> 
> 
> J31 will be around the same size as F35, lighter, slimmer, faster. maybe with smaller
> front RCS. if one day J31 vs F35 one to one, they will have a fight. J31 will
> have less function than F35. J31 price tab will be a big surprise, can be 25% ~ 30% of F35.


 Its "chubbiness" is good for it self, going simple ever heard of Area rule? 






To minimize the supersonic drag coefficient, the change in area along the length of the aircraft should be smooth (example, having a tubular fuselage with a pair of wings jutting out of the sides is much worse than having a fuselage that narrows along the chord of the wing). 
as long as the area along the lenght varies smoothly, you're good. The "fat" cockpit bulge and flattening over the wing gloves is why the B-1B has a cruise speed farther into the transsonic regime than any other bomber. The F-35 tries to conform to Mach-Area rule by swapping lateral expansion for vertical contraction. Take a look at a Boeing 747.


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## Esc8781




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## Beast

amalakas said:


> But apparently the manufacturers of T-50, which by the way have far bigger experience in making planes, apparently do not know what they are doing. Nice logic there mate!


 They lack the technology, under fund and suffer a brain drain with many talents leaving the country.. Its a sad fact for the reality of Russia. In these world, money talks! I believe if Russia has the ample fund and massive investment on their facilities for aviation. They will make T-50 better. 

When you keep on dumping money and has the full support of government. Sooner or later, you will advance and succeed on that area.

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## Manticore

so , whats the initial verdict based on physical shape of the fighter ? any significance of angles and their effect on stealth & operational ceiling in comparsion e f22/pakfa/j20/f35

i didnt have time to go through this thread -- plz give me a summary or link up a good article

ty


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Ah, you're using Viet logic quite copiously I see. Your diagrams, once again, while true, have no point. No one ever questioned the fact that engines on a fighter are designed differently from a cargo jet.


In other words, you did not understand at all the sources provided.



manqiangrexue said:


> The point is that there are many changes on the J-31 from the F-35. Do those changes reflect adaptations to different engine layout or are they genuine aerodynamic improvements? Or both?


This is where you are wrong. If you enlarge the wing area, it may not be because you discovered a new method of aerodynamic exploitation, it may be because you do not have sufficient propulsion.

Either way, you have no good foundation, other than empty platitudes and hope, that this new Chinese fighter is a superior design to the American ones.


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## gambit

ANTIBODY said:


> so , whats the initial verdict based on physical shape of the fighter ? any significance of angles and their effect on stealth & operational ceiling in comparsion e f22/pakfa/j20/f35
> 
> i didnt have time to go through this thread -- plz give me a summary or link up a good article
> 
> ty


You should know better by now than to ask such question.

What is the best demonstration of body armor? Shoot it.

What is the best demonstration of an airfoil? Put it on a design and fly it.

What is the final determination of a complex body's radar cross section (RCS)? Measure it.


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## ptldM3

Beast said:


> *They lack the technology, under fund and suffer a brain drain* with many talents leaving the country.. Its a sad fact for the reality of Russia. In these world, money talks! I believe if Russia has the ample fund and massive investment on their facilities for aviation. They will make T-50 better.
> 
> When you keep on dumping money and has the full support of government. Sooner or later, you will advance and succeed on that area.



Sure we do, keep telling yourself that. By that token I can also state the same thing about China but that would just be an opinion and a very foolish and naïve opinion at that since I have no connection to Shenyang so I cant say what technology they have in their possession, or what kind of funds they spent or who (brains) are working for them.


So how does Russia lack funds when they just approved 650 billion dollars of new equipment purchases, not counting research and development.

And explain this 'brain drain' when Russia has the highest number of college graduates in Europe.


The fact is most Chinese on this board and other boards havent have the slightest clue about aircraft design or 'stealth' what they think they know, they really don't know or they put a nationalistic twist to things to the point where its utterly ridiculous, example: The pak-fa is not stealthy because of its two piece canopy, when the J-31 comes out, none of the Chinese members that crucified the pak-fa for its canopy dare say a thing about the J-31, in fact now the opposite is happening, a two piece canopy isn't all that bad. Furthermore, other features that many Chinese criticized on the pak for being 'unstealthy' seem to all of the sudden become stealthy overnight.

You may put the pak-fa down and laugh at it which seems to be acceptable behavior by many Chinese fan boys but most reasonable people with an understanding in aviation would know the genius in the design. The pak-fa is one of the closest things you can have to a flying wing without being a B-2, the design is heavily centered around high lift, low drag with weight being the center piece characteristic with the flat/thin fuselage as the hallmark of that design feature. In terms of aerodynamic performance building an aircraft that utilizes high lift, low drag, low weight to its fullest potential will create an aircraft with great range, great payload, high maneuverability, high supercruise, ect, the list just goes on. 

The Su-27 is one of the greatest designs for an aircraft even to this day, with the SU-27 setting no less than 40 world records. The pak-fa surpasses the SU-27 in almost all aspects, yet we have some anonymous Chinese fan boys that are claiming that the pak-fa and the Russians dont know what they are doing


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## Beast

ptldM3 said:


> Sure we do, keep telling yourself that. By that token I can also state the same thing about China but that would just be an opinion and a very foolish and naïve opinion at that since I have no connection to Shenyang so I can&#8217;t say what technology they have in their possession, or what kind of funds they spent or who (brains) are working for them.
> 
> 
> So how does Russia lack funds when they just approved 650 billion dollars of new equipment purchases, not counting research and development.
> 
> And explain this 'brain drain' when Russia has the highest number of college graduates in Europe.
> 
> 
> The fact is most Chinese on this board and other boards haven&#8217;t have the slightest clue about aircraft design or 'stealth' what they think they know, they really don't know or they put a nationalistic twist to things to the point where its utterly ridiculous, example: The pak-fa is not stealthy because of its two piece canopy, when the J-31 comes out, none of the Chinese members that crucified the pak-fa for its canopy dare say a thing about the J-31, in fact now the opposite is happening, a two piece canopy isn't all that bad. Furthermore, other features that many Chinese criticized on the pak for being 'unstealthy' seem to all of the sudden become stealthy overnight.
> 
> You may put the pak-fa down and laugh at it which seems to be acceptable behavior by many Chinese fan boys but most reasonable people with an understanding in aviation would know the genius in the design. The pak-fa is one of the closest things you can have to a flying wing without being a B-2, the design is heavily centered around high lift, low drag with weight being the center piece characteristic with the flat/thin fuselage as the hallmark of that design feature. In terms of aerodynamic performance building an aircraft that utilizes high lift, low drag, low weight to its fullest potential will create an aircraft with great range, great payload, high maneuverability, high supercruise, ect, the list just goes on.
> 
> The Su-27 is one of the greatest designs for an aircraft even to this day, with the SU-27 setting no less than 40 world records. The pak-fa surpasses the SU-27 in almost all aspects, yet we have some anonymous Chinese fan boys that are claiming that the pak-fa and the Russians don&#8217;t know what they are doing



You shall have long known J-31 is a export version which suppose to be inferior. If you keep talking about the 2piece canopy thing then you already admit J-20 is indeed superior becos it is the stealth endorse by PLAAF.

We dont care abt J-31 is good or bad.. Becos J-20 is the top of the cream for PLAAF. Conclusion, yr T-50 is still inferior , understand! LOL...

CHina, Japan and USA for the last 3 years are vying the top 3 spot for super computer ranking.. 

It is no surprising, supercomputer aid design of 5th gen stealth fighter. Super computer also helps in making nuclear weapon. Surprising, nulcear weapon and stealth fighter are the 2 thing gaining headline in the last few years about PLA military capabilites.

As for the technology, I bet you do not know. China now possess the most powerful hydraulic press in the world. Hydraulic press is critical in making huge aircraft component and parts for aeronautic engine. It is the continue dumping of R&D fund by the state that China able to achieve such feat.

As for Russia, the technology stagnant after the fall of Soviet Union.. Your boast of USD650 billions for Russia armed force is nothing becos this is consider peanuts compare to China military fund. Please take note the USD650 billion fund is stretch over a long period of time and not just a year budget. In the end, its still under fund for a huge country like Russia.

Its funny you compare Russia to Europe but dare not compare Russia graduate against CHinese ratio. I bet China dump out more graduate and PhD than the whole Russia and Europe combined. I the end, we still beat you..

Su-27 design is great , no doubt about that. A great product of Soviet Era times.. 
P-51 Mustang is also great for its time... Shall we move on??


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## Manticore

gambit said:


> You should know better by now than to ask such question.
> 
> What is the best demonstration of body armor? Shoot it.
> 
> What is the best demonstration of an airfoil? Put it on a design and fly it.
> 
> What is the final determination of a complex body's radar cross section (RCS)? Measure it.



so if we cant even find any thing just by eyeballing the design , if posters cant summarize any constructive point from the discussion on this thread , what have the members done here for the past 600 posts?


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## gambit

ANTIBODY said:


> so if we cant even find any thing just by eyeballing the design , if posters cant summarize any constructive point from the discussion on this thread , what have the members done here for the past 600 posts?


There are some things you can find that will give you good cause to call a design as 'non-stealthy' or 'stealthy'. A single vertical stab, for instance. This is pretty much an immediate dismissal out of the low radar observable area.







Those are the major *MACRO STRUCTURAL* mechanisms of radiation. Some of them we can eliminate, as in installing twin canted vertical stabs to eliminate the corner reflector. Some we can control, such as installing absorber to reduce surface radiation. Some we can do both by installing absorber as well as reorienting/reconfiguring the structure to reduce radiation back to source direction, such as edge treatment.






But once we have treated all the macro structural radiators to the best extent our design allowed, it will be the *MICRO STRUCTURAL* mechanisms of radiation that will give the aircraft away, albeit at a less distance than when compared to the macro structures.

These micro structural radiators are panel gaps, exposed screws, accidental gouges from careless maintenance, or simply poor workmanship from manufacturing. If the overall design still have major structural radiators than can give the aircraft away, then all the micro structural radiator treatments will be a waste of resources, finance and human. The opposite is *EQUALLY* true and important. If there are enough micro structural radiators to give the aircraft away at a tactically disadvantageous distance, as in within enemy missile capability, then all the macro structural radiator treatment were for naught. You will just die at 100 km from the target instead of 150 km.

Bottom line for designing a low radar observable body is this: Eliminate all radiation if possible, and if not possible, deny the adversary radar any radiation.

You can deny by redirection and that is where shaping comes in. You eliminate by absorber but it is a weight penalty so your absorber application will be frequency and bandwidth limited. That is why you must have a balance of both.

There is no way for anyone to 'eyeball' a design that has hints of low radar observable attempts and make a definitive declaration that said design is X or Y meters square RCS at Z distance. The current attempts by the Russians and China have high macro structural treatments. No use in denying that. But the US have set the standards with the retired F-117 and its RCS is still (feloniously) unknown.

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## ptldM3

Beast said:


> You shall have long known J-31 is a export version which suppose to be inferior. If you keep talking about the 2piece canopy thing then you already admit J-20 is indeed superior becos it is the stealth endorse by PLAAF.





The export version argument is simply silly. Almost all aircraft are export aircraft, the J-31 is no different. Shenyang is trying to market the aircraft and its biggest potential buyer would be China, so now explain to everyone why Shenyang would use a supposed downgraded version of the aircraft for marketing. 


And did not say anything that implicates a two piece canopy as being bad, read again.









Beast said:


> We dont care abt J-31 is good or bad.. Becos J-20 is the top of the cream for PLAAF. Conclusion, yr T-50 is still inferior , understand! LOL...







Prime example of Chinese chest thumping. I take it that you have tested both aircraft to come to that conclusion? I remember looking through a manual for an F-15, the manual was about 2 inches thick and a great deal of the content was about performance. The point Im trying to prove with the F-15 manual is that even with all the information available about the F-15, most people like 99% would not know more about the F-15s performance than what they find on Wekepedia. And most people would probably be shocked to know that there is a 2 inch thick manual that covers the aircrafts performance.

Both aircraft probably had thousand of people involved in the design stages which includes everything from basics structural design to aerodynamics, RCS control to subsystems such as radars, ECMs ect. The performance of both aircraft is a mystery, yet we have some people that can judge performance based on picture.







Beast said:


> CHina, Japan and USA for the last 3 years are vying the top 3 spot for super computer ranking..






And..? 








Beast said:


> It is no surprising, supercomputer aid design of 5th gen stealth fighter. Super computer also helps in making nuclear weapon. Surprising, nulcear weapon and stealth fighter are the 2 thing gaining headline in the last few years about PLA military capabilites.






Again what is your point? Many major engineering companies use supercomputers, if they are not domestic than they are foreign. A supercomputer that was ranked #1 last year would probably not even break the top ten this year, a company that ranked 1st last year may drop to 7th this year.






Beast said:


> As for the technology, I bet you do not know. China now possess the most powerful hydraulic press in the world.




Wow amazingnot really.






Beast said:


> Hydraulic press is critical in making huge aircraft component and parts for aeronautic engine.






This just demonstrates that you dont know what you are talking about. Its not the 1950s, modern aircraft are almost exclusively made from CNC machining. Most components are cut using laser or water pressure. Carbon fiber composites and similar technologies are the same, they are machined. 










Beast said:


> As for Russia, the technology stagnant after the fall of Soviet Union..





Sure, tell yourself that. Russia is pathetic, China is strong. China has the money and research, the brains and the talent. yet you still use old Russian engines  

So much for all your money and engineering.




Beast said:


> Your boast of USD650 billions for Russia armed force is nothing becos this is consider peanuts compare to China military fund.






This is on equipment purchase, unless you have data that compares Chinese equipment purchases its best you say nothing. And annual budgets are not the same, especially when large conscript armies spent a considerable amount of the annual funds just on feeding and housing expenses. Case in point, you made a very vague and general claim that Russia has no funding and now you cant support that claim. Can you give me Sukhois budget? Or Saturns budget? Or Phazatrons budget?


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## conworldus

I am confused....


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## Beast

ptldM3 said:


> The &#8216;export version&#8217; argument is simply silly. Almost all aircraft are export aircraft, the J-31 is no different. Shenyang is trying to market the aircraft and its biggest potential buyer would be China, so now explain to everyone why Shenyang would use a supposed downgraded version of the aircraft for marketing.
> 
> 
> And did not say anything that implicates a two piece canopy as being bad, read again.



J-20 and F-22 being top of the cream of both airforce. USAF already refuse export of it.. China has so far no talk abt export of J-20. Both uses single canopy. J-31 known as F-60 long known to known as export version being shown on last Zuhai Airshow.














ptldM3 said:


> Again what is your point? Many major engineering companies use supercomputers, if they are not domestic than they are foreign. A supercomputer that was ranked #1 last year would probably not even break the top ten this year, a company that ranked 1st last year may drop to 7th this year.



Clearly you do not understand the contribution of Supercomputer and their contribution to military. There is reason why US pour in significant amount of resources and money in maintaining the edge. Super computer helps in RCS calculation and simulation of 5th gen stealth. Russia which never touch even the 3rd spot in supercomputer???  now you know why T-50 is never stealthy.







ptldM3 said:


> Wow amazing&#8230;not really.



Really? Show me Russian recapture the top spot?








ptldM3 said:


> This just demonstrates that you don&#8217;t know what you are talking about. It&#8217;s not the 1950&#8217;s, modern aircraft are almost exclusively made from CNC machining. Most components are cut using laser or water pressure. Carbon fiber composites and similar technologies are the same, they are machined.



Hydraulic press is still critical in especially large aircraft component. CNC can the most do in medium or small aircraft components. But comes to high thrust engine. Powerful hydraulic press is still needed.. This is one of the reason that plague China large aircraft manufacturing and engine for so long until now.













ptldM3 said:


> Sure, tell yourself that. Russia is pathetic, China is strong. China has the money and research, the brains and the talent. yet you still use old Russian engines
> 
> So much for all your money and engineering.



Most russian bought engine are used on old airframe which redesigning to fit WS-10A is wasteful. PLus Russian is willing to sell at reasonable price. Why not?

Latest J-11B all so far is fitted with WS-10A only.. Even the lastest J-16 prototype are running WS-10A. Even our J-20 are flying with WS-10X.. Not you russian engine.We don't care abt export model. They are not critical. Fitting with Russian engine is more of cost saving .











ptldM3 said:


> This is on equipment purchase, unless you have data that compares Chinese equipment purchases its best you say nothing. And annual budgets are not the same, especially when large conscript armies spent a considerable amount of the annual funds just on feeding and housing expenses. Case in point, you made a very vague and general claim that Russia has no funding and now you can&#8217;t support that claim. Can you give me Sukhoi&#8217;s budget? Or Saturn&#8217;s budget? Or Phazatrons&#8217; budget?



Everybody knows Russia ecomomy. Besides raw material export. Russian hardly sell anything useful. So where is your large fund comes from? Even the 650 billion is pathetic and spread over a period of 10 years. It's hardly enough.

If sukhoi has such great budget, it need not ask India to pump in fund, right?  what can Indian contribute to your T-50 besides money?

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## manqiangrexue

Gambit, if I am just hoping that this aircraft is superior to the F-35, then you are just hoping that it's not. My theory: Aerodynamic differences were intelligently made to improve aerodynamic performance (although some had to be made for the obvious change from 1 to 2 engines). Your theory: Differences were made to compensate for poor engine performance. There is just nowhere else to go from this. No evidence suggests wither way. Stop trying to win. I said both are alternate theories and that's exactly what they are. Yours is NOT superior. 

I don't know why you posted all those diagrams again of an un-stealthy aircraft. Clearly, the J-31 does not feature a single vertical stabilizer. Stop hiding behind your diagrams. If you say I don't understand something, then explain it. If you don't then it's not that I didn't understand; it's that saying I don't understand is your last ditch effort to confuse people who aren't sure if I'm right in calling your BS. 

You just showed a picture of a civilian jet engine for no reason at all. Also, you showed that radar reflects off a single vertical stabilizer design also, for no reason at all as well(other than in the realms of Viet logic). If not, explain right now what that reason is. 

Old confused man with your BS Viet logic, everyone is sick your your crappy diagrams that don't mean jack diddly squat. You're a fraud. You didn't fly anything. You are an attention wh0re on this forum and you desperately want to be respected. You're not getting it because 1. You post BS and cover than up as pertinent information and 2. you are a worm for fighting (or pretending to have fought) for the country that destroyed your own. Just for number 2, there is nothing that you can do to bring yourself respect from others because you don't respect your own blood.

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## Icecreamcart

manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit, if I am just hoping that this aircraft is superior to the F-35, then you are just hoping that it's not. My theory: Aerodynamic differences were intelligently made to improve aerodynamic performance (although some had to be made for the obvious change from 1 to 2 engines). Your theory: Differences were made to compensate for poor engine performance. There is just nowhere else to go from this. No evidence suggests wither way. Stop trying to win. I said both are alternate theories and that's exactly what they are. Yours is NOT superior.
> 
> I don't know why you posted all those diagrams again of an un-stealthy aircraft. Clearly, the J-31 does not feature a single vertical stabilizer. Stop hiding behind your diagrams. If you say I don't understand something, then explain it. If you don't then it's not that I didn't understand; it's that saying I don't understand is your last ditch effort to confuse people who aren't sure if I'm right in calling your BS.
> 
> You just showed a picture of a civilian jet engine for no reason at all. Also, you showed that radar reflects off a single vertical stabilizer design also, for no reason at all as well(other than in the realms of Viet logic). If not, explain right now what that reason is.
> 
> Old confused man with your BS Viet logic, everyone is sick your your crappy diagrams that don't mean jack diddly squat. You're a fraud. You didn't fly anything. You are an attention wh0re on this forum and you desperately want to be respected. You're not getting it because 1. You post BS and cover than up as pertinent information and 2. you are a worm for fighting (or pretending to have fought) for the country that destroyed your own. Just for number 2, there is nothing that you can do to bring yourself respect from others because you don't respect your own blood.



Mate, better to forget about it. Let him insult all the Chinese he wants. If he feels he needs to, let him. You're just making him feel better, reaffirming his idea of all Chinese posters being 'juvenile delinquents' unworthy to talk to without spitting or insulting..

Let's just enjoy the new plane.  I'm hoping for the plane to take flight within the next few weeks.

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## Banglar Lathial

manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit, if I am just hoping that this aircraft is superior to the F-35, then you are just hoping that it's not. My theory: Aerodynamic differences were intelligently made to improve aerodynamic performance (although some had to be made for the obvious change from 1 to 2 engines). Your theory: Differences were made to compensate for poor engine performance. There is just nowhere else to go from this. No evidence suggests wither way. Stop trying to win. *I said both are alternate theories and that's exactly what they are.* Yours is NOT superior.
> 
> I don't know why you posted all those diagrams again of an un-stealthy aircraft. Clearly, the J-31 does not feature a single vertical stabilizer. Stop hiding behind your diagrams. If you say I don't understand something, then explain it. If you don't then it's not that I didn't understand; it's that saying I don't understand is your last ditch effort to confuse people who aren't sure if I'm right in calling your BS.
> 
> You just showed a picture of a civilian jet engine for no reason at all. Also, you showed that radar reflects off a single vertical stabilizer design also, for no reason at all as well(other than in the realms of Viet logic). If not, explain right now what that reason is.
> 
> Old confused man with your BS Viet logic, everyone is sick your your crappy diagrams that don't mean jack diddly squat. You're a fraud. You didn't fly anything. You are an attention wh0re on this forum and you desperately want to be respected. You're not getting it because 1. You post BS and cover than up as pertinent information and 2. you are a worm for fighting (or pretending to have fought) for the country that destroyed your own. Just for number 2, there is nothing that you can do to bring yourself respect from others because you don't respect your own blood.




This is true. As far as I can see from the information in this thread, not enough information has been made public to draw any definitive conclusions about this good looking plane.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

ptldM3 said:


> *The pak-fa is one of the closest things you can have to a flying wing without being a B-2*



Very True!!! same thought had come to my mind when I saw the pakfa prototype for the first time.


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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> Gambit, if I am just hoping that this aircraft is superior to the F-35, then you are just hoping that it's not.


Wrong. I have always maintain the same position: Wait.

If you wish it to be superior to the F-35, it would have to be in the same category as the F-35, which is a multi-role jack-of-all-trades fighter. It would have to be V/STOL capable, which is unlikely.

The problem for you is that you will find one or two things that this new aircraft is alleged to be 'superior' to the F-35 and you will blow it all out of proportions.



manqiangrexue said:


> My theory: Aerodynamic differences were intelligently made to improve aerodynamic performance (although some had to be made for the obvious change from 1 to 2 engines). Your theory: Differences were made to compensate for poor engine performance.


Yours is no 'theory' but merely a hope. And what I posted about the relationship between airframe and propulsion is established. You cannot dispute it.



manqiangrexue said:


> *I don't know why you posted all those diagrams again of an un-stealthy aircraft.* Clearly, the J-31 does not feature a single vertical stabilizer. Stop hiding behind your diagrams. If you say I don't understand something, then explain it. If you don't then it's not that I didn't understand; it's that saying I don't understand is your last ditch effort to confuse people who aren't sure if I'm right in calling your BS.


Because they set the foundation on how to make an aircraft 'stealthy'. 

Think about it for a moment. How do you know to avoid something if you do not know how the thing works/behave/looks? The fact that you said that mean my attempt to explain things to you have failed. I presented the same materials to plenty of other people in training, on aircraft and in the classroom, and they get it. Why not you?



manqiangrexue said:


> You just showed a picture of a civilian jet engine for no reason at all.


Too bad you do not understand. And yet you dare to participate...

Yours is flawed is that *YOU* can make an assumption about a supposedly 'superior' airframe based upon looks alone. Mine is -- Not.

And here is why...

A turbine jet engine have four major sections:

- Compressor
- Combustion (Burner)
- Turbine
- Exhaust

Turbine Engines


> The turbojet engine contains four sections: compressor, combustion chamber, turbine section, and exhaust.
> 
> This is a basic application of compressing air (Compressor), igniting the fuel-air mixture (Combustion), producing power to self-sustain the engine operation (Turbine), and exhaust for propulsion (Exhaust).



The first graphic in the above source illustrate all of the four sections in sequence of operations. Words in parentheses mine for clarity.

Refer back to that source...



> The compressor types fall into three categories&#151;centrifugal flow, axial flow, and centrifugal-axial flow. Compression of inlet air is achieved in a centrifugal flow engine by accelerating air outward perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the machine. The axial-flow engine compresses air by a series of rotating and stationary airfoils moving the air parallel to the longitudinal axis. *The centrifugalaxial flow design uses both kinds of compressors to achieve the desired compression.*



The highlighted last sentence is significant: _The centrifugalaxial flow design uses both kinds of compressors to achieve the desired compression._

Why is there a hybrid of the centrifugal and axial compressor types -- unless there are advantages and disadvantages for each? It is the compressor section, the physically foremost and first of four sections, that have a direct influence on airframe design.

Centrifugal compression works by 'flinging' pockets of air outward or perpendicular to the machine's longitudinal axis. We have the same thing on hot rods. The path or channel that these pockets of air travels to the combustion chamber gets increasingly narrower, creating higher pressure by the time the air pocket reached the combustion chamber. Centrifugal compressor is also known as 'radial' type compressor.

Axial compressor works by moving a continuous flow of air thru several stages of fan blades. Each fan stage is slightly different in blade airfoil aerodynamics to achieve compression thru the stages. Axial compressor can also be found in hot rods.

The differences between the two are illustrated here...

Compressors


> Centrifugal compressors, which were used in the first jet engines, are still used on small turbojets and turboshaft engines and as pumps on rocket engines. *Modern large turbojet and turbofan engines usually use axial compressors.*


Centrifugal compression method is much more tolerant of inlet airflow distortion/disruption than axial compression method. The disadvantage is that the centrifugal compression engine will have a much larger engine front face, which in turn will determine intake sizing, which in turn will affect fuselage dimension, which in turn will affect drag, which in turn will affect maneuverability and overall performance in all flight conditions.

Axial compression method produces a superior increase and constant rate of increase of pressurized air flow, instead of air pockets, than centrifugal compression method. The axial compression engine have a much smaller engine front face, which in turn will determine a smaller intake sizing, which in turn will affect fuselage dimension, and so on...The disadvantages are the intolerance of airflow distortion/disruption which limits inlet/intake design options to those that will minimize airflow distortion/disruption, and high reliance on precision blade aerodynamics and blade material durability.

ch10-3


> Especially in modern fighters that may have thrust-to-weight ratios in the order of 1, *the inlet and its integration with the airframe exert a powerful influence on the overall aircraft design.* The aim in engine-airframe integration is to minimize airplane drag, weight, and complexity and to maximize propulsion-system efficiency while, at the same time, ensuring that the aircraft mission requirements have not been compromised.


And that explains the highlighted sentence in the NASA source, more so for the military fighter class aircraft where we want high maneuverability and are willing to expend resources to produce high quality engine blades.

The axial turbine engine is smaller in diameter, which give us smaller inlet system regarding geometries of the cowl and boundary layer separation mechanism, which produces less drag because propulsion system induced drag is counted *AGAINST* installed thrust, or to put it another way, propulsion system induced drag equals to a reduction in installed thrust.

So now we have a conflict...

Uninstalled thrust is when the engine is standalone and have as much air as its diameter will allow. Installed thrust is when the engine is installed into the aircraft with an intake system which inevitably restricts air volume. Installed thrust is always less than uninstalled thrust. The greater we enlarge the intake system to give the axial turbine engine as much air volume as possible, the more complex and higher weight penalty the inlet system must be in order to slow inlet air down to .5 Mach for the engine to use, inevitably this will affect fuselage dimensions and contribute to radar cross section (RCS). If we design the intake system with drag and RCS as primary considerations, then we must reduce the intake system size, which will reduce installed thrust even more.

On the design team, the Propulsion side is going to argue for things that will get the engine to as close to theoretical output as possible. The Airframe and Radar sides, which will include aerodynamicists, are going to argue for things that will give the aircraft maneuverability and low RCS. There will be conflicting demands and with time constraints like any other business ventures, a decision has to be made that will compromise all sides.

Do you still think you can credibly divorce propulsion from airframe design? I do not use the word 'divorce' in jest. A 'marriage' is a union of two individuals, that while each can function alone, together they can accomplish much more. A 'divorce' is the separation that destroys whatever it is that they became that worked and was productive. A jet engine is useless if it not coupled to an airframe and an airframe is worthless if it cannot fly for lack of propulsion.

Ever heard of the term 'rubber engine'? No, it has nothing to do with the material called 'rubber' except in reference to elasticity.

An aircraft manufacturer is usually not an engine manufacturer. So when he design a new aircraft, given how integral is propulsion to airframe, despite your dismissal of this fact, he will contact the engine maker for the performance specs of the most up to date engine on the market. If the physical dimension of the real engine does not logically fit into his new airframe design, he will then logically scale up or down its physical dimensions to fit. But what if his inlet system reduces air flow into this hypothetical engine? Thrust is roughly proportional to intake air flow which is directly related to engine's cross sectional area. Sorry, but generally at the current technology level, reduced engine size naturally reduces thrust. Hence, the term 'rubber engine' because of its hypothetical elasticity before a physical airframe is actually made.

We even have software to help us in that task and is called a 'parametric deck'.

For examples...

Computer Deck - The GasTurb Program


> The data describing the engine are created with GasTurb as an Engine Model File which is loaded during the *deck initialization process.* The Engine Model File contains all data necessary for doing off-design simulations, both for steady state and transient operation. Transient simulations can employ the control system as defined in the GasTurb model or run to a specified fuel flow or spool speed.



www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/680013.pdf


> The CARPET Deck is a computer program that simulates a basic parametric turbojet or turbofan. It can also be used to analyze the performance of a specific engine at discrete operating points if the total airflow is input along with the component characteristics of the engine.


Better parametric decking software can logically alter the engine's physical dimensions on the fly depending on the operator's inputs to alter things like airflow quantity or fuselage dimensions or even engine accessories relocation on the engine itself.

The airframe-propulsion integration is so important that we want to do it as early into the design phase as possible and with today's CAD/CAM technology, we can have a reasonably accurate forecast on what we must do for the new aircraft even before the first piece of metal is struck.

SAC can copy the F-22 down to the exact millimeter but if there is not a PW-F119 equivalent in China and SAC installs something inferior, then this F-22 copy will fly like sh1t. So if SAC altered this copy or 'hybridized' it from something else in any way, it does not automatically mean the alterations are for improvements as you baselessly assumed. *WE DO NOT KNOW*. But the relationship between propulsion and airframe design is indisputably established and not just merely another 'theory' on equal footing to your baseless assumptions.

I do not expect you to understand anything I presented above. I do not even expect you to read them. The logical arguments and their sources are more to prove to the readers why you are wrong in your convenient assumptions than to change your mind that you are wrong. In your need to save face in front of fellow Chinese on this forum, you *MUST* dismiss NASA and other sources whereas I am committed to the truth: That you cannot divorce propulsion from airframe design and that you cannot simply look at this new Chinese fighter and make baseless assumptions alleging superiority of its design without considering its engine sources. Yours is the typical behavior of the Chinese members here: Proven wrong but refuses to admit it out of childish pride.

Looks like this 'Gramps' has better research skills and more credibility than you, young ignorant pup.

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## DARKY

conworldus said:


> If the western speculation of this jet using the Russian RD-93 is correct, then what you see is probably just heat distortion since the *RD-93 is not TVC*.
> 
> Anyways, I just glad to see that 601 is catching up with their own stealth jet. Even if the PLA doesn't buy it, this jet may find users in South America, Africa, Central and Southeast Asia, Middle East, and who knows maybe eastern European countries. It certainly looks like a very versatile and affordable fighter.









Although its another thing that the Russians won't sell such things to Chinese... as they have been *stealing* most of their technologies right through.


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## conworldus

DARKY said:


> Although its another thing that the Russians won't sell such things to Chinese... as they have been *stealing* most of their technologies right through.



Don't blame China for being more advanced than your backwater hole. Keep accusing us for "stealing" is just sour grapes for your inability to learn and advance. Your mig-21++ LCA is still not in service.

For your feeble knowledge, RD-93 is the designation of RD-33s designed for JF-17. They have no vector thrust. The RD-33 does have a vector thrust nozzle but we don't have it.

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## manqiangrexue

No gramps, it only looks that way to you because your drugs aren't working. Lots of info about engines. Very nice. Point? None. We already established that there was a big difference between civilian engines and military, the fact that it's true doesn't pertain to any part of the conversation. 

J-31 made some changes to go from original 1 big engine to 2 small engines. Of course, but how do you assume that that's were the changes stopped? Many more changes very well can be improvements.

Oh, you put that diagram up to demonstrate how to determine if an aircraft looks stealthy? I don't see anyone asking you how to determine that. And even if the conversation went there no one ever claimed that a single vertical tail was stealthy. Or maybe they did... in your mind, gramps.

Propulsion has a lot to do with how the aircraft will perform? Sure, but now is just too early to make any assumptions about what engines are gonna be like and how they will perform on the final. If we go strictly by your saying that you can't talk about air frame without talking about propulsion then nobody can say anything.

Our conversation goes in circles. I say something, you say it's wrong, then dump a bunch of random information to look like you know what you are talking about. I point out that that's a lot of true information that you googled, but it's completely devoid of meaning as it pertains to the conversation. Your response, another 2 pages of irrelevant information, this time, engine development info copied from wikipedia or something like that. Then I point out that that is also extremely pointless, and surely, your next post will copiously use google and wiki to demonstrate Viet logic again. We will not escape this cycle because you're too old to do logic, only able to post dry info.

I came to this site cus of the appearance of pictures of the J-31 and now, I'm not seeing anymore pics, but wasting time babysitting a fraudulent old man who claims to have served in the air force that destroyed his native country. All the Chinese members that have spent lots of time here already knew to ignore you because you're broken; you can't argue with someone who's mind is broken cus it's like arguing with the wall. So I'm gonna stop wasting my time here and do productive things. Good bye, up the dosage on your pills, good bye again.

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## gambit

manqiangrexue said:


> No gramps, it only looks that way to you because your drugs aren't working. Lots of info about engines. Very nice. Point? None. We already established that there was a big difference between civilian engines and military, the fact that it's true doesn't pertain to any part of the conversation.


We established more than that. We established that propulsion, civilian or military, is so integrated into designing a new aircraft that its consideration made it as early as the conceptual stage. Bet you did not know that.



manqiangrexue said:


> J-31 made some changes to go from original 1 big engine to 2 small engines. Of course, but how do you assume that that's were the changes stopped? Many more changes very well can be improvements.


I made no assumptions. So far, *YOU* did. I advocate: Wait.



manqiangrexue said:


> Oh, you put that diagram up to demonstrate how to determine if an aircraft looks stealthy? I don't see anyone asking you how to determine that.


No one need to ask. Making wrong assumptions compel corrections. Like how you made your wrong assumptions.



manqiangrexue said:


> And even if the conversation went there no one ever claimed that a single vertical tail was stealthy. Or maybe they did... in your mind, gramps.


No, many did a long time ago. Before I came on here. Now no one does. Not even the Chinese who learned so much from me. Including you.



manqiangrexue said:


> Propulsion has a lot to do with how the aircraft will perform? Sure, but now is just too early to make any assumptions about what engines are gonna be like and how they will perform on the final. *If we go strictly by your saying that you can't talk about air frame without talking about propulsion then nobody can say anything.*


And that is what I have been advocating all this time. Were you asleep in class?



manqiangrexue said:


> Our conversation goes in circles. I say something, you say it's wrong, then dump a bunch of random information to look like you know what you are talking about. I point out that that's a lot of true information that you googled, but it's completely devoid of meaning as it pertains to the conversation. Your response, another 2 pages of irrelevant information, this time, engine development info copied from wikipedia or something like that. Then I point out that that is also extremely pointless, and surely, your next post will copiously use google and wiki to demonstrate Viet logic again. We will not escape this cycle because you're too old to do logic, only able to post dry info.


But I do know what I am talking about. Unlike you Chinese boys.



manqiangrexue said:


> I came to this site cus of the appearance of pictures of the J-31 and now, I'm not seeing anymore pics, but wasting time babysitting a fraudulent old man who claims to have served in the air force that destroyed his native country. All the Chinese members that have spent lots of time here already knew to ignore you because you're broken; you can't argue with someone who's mind is broken cus it's like arguing with the wall. So I'm gonna stop wasting my time here and do productive things. Good bye, up the dosage on your pills, good bye again.


Go to that intellectually dead playground where everyone is a member of a mutual admiration society. You will fit in there perfectly with your cluelessness and stubbornness. So far, this place proved to have many genuinely interested in the technical side of things. If you were in my class way back then, I would have sent you back to your superior after the first day.

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## SuperFieryDragon

J31 maybe not equip PLA . but J31 can first equip to PAF.

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## SuperFieryDragon

DARKY said:


> Although its another thing that the Russians won't sell such things to Chinese... as they have been *stealing* most of their technologies right through.



lol... look at you HAL LCA... even the america help LCA . the LCA can no completed on schedule . you think you have qualifications to ridicule our &#65311; we complete JF7 J8 J10 FC1 J20 J31 .and what about your HAL&#65311;just MIG21 or Su30MKI&#65311; say our stealing . yes we stealing&#65281; but your HAL can &#65311; can stealing and then manufacture a Military aircraft &#65311;i don&#8216;t know . but i know . we can &#65281;and now we making progress . Start Independent research and development . we will don&#8217;t need stealing . just by virtue of its own technology manufacture a Military aircraft . J20 Is the best example .


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## marshall

gambit said:


> Prior to my participation here, no one knows of the phrase 'corner reflector' and understand why it is detrimental to 'stealth'...
> .
> .
> Prior to my participation here, no one know of something called 'EM isolation anechoic chamber' testing for low radar observable bodies...


You have quite the ego considering the plethora of military forums and Wikipedia. LOL




gambit said:


> fighters, the aircraft *MUST* have twin canted vertical stabilators that does not produce the 90 deg corner reflector. Now all the talks about making every existing fighters 'stealthy' pretty much stopped.


I think stealth-*IER* is the keyword. Almost every fighter nowadays, whether it has single or twin vertical stabilizers, is given some design effort with LO in mind even though they are not...aka the J-10B, Eurofighter, Rafale, F-15SE and even the J-11B.

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## gambit

marshall said:


> You have quite the ego considering the plethora of military forums and Wikipedia. LOL


That has nothing to do with my ego. That is the truth. Am not talking about other forums but this one.


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## veekysingh

SuperFieryDragon said:


> lol... look at you HAL LCA... even the america help LCA . the LCA can no completed on schedule . you think you have qualifications to ridicule our &#65311; we complete JF7 J8 J10 FC1 J20 J31 .and what about your HAL&#65311;just MIG21 or Su30MKI&#65311; say our stealing . yes we stealing&#65281; but your HAL can &#65311; can stealing and then manufacture a Military aircraft &#65311;i don&#8216;t know . but i know . we can &#65281;and now we making progress . Start Independent research and development . we will don&#8217;t need stealing . just by virtue of its own technology manufacture a Military aircraft . J20 Is the best example .



 so u agree that china does steal tech from others right?


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## rcrmj

veekysingh said:


> so u agree that china does steal tech from others right?



he is not going to waste his time on educating low IQ indians about what is reverse engineering..every high tech powers like Germany, Japan, Ex-Soviet and even U.S in its early days doing that```but again you need the basic to learn others tech``

and the said reality about India is that its economy is at primitive factor driven stage``so its probably gonna take 50 years for your primitive country to actually start to reverse engineer modern techs



----------------------------------------------------------------
gagaga thats disturbing```you need to delete those pictures

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## DARKY

conworldus said:


> Don't blame China for being more advanced than your backwater hole. Keep accusing us for "stealing" is just sour grapes for your inability to learn and advance. Your mig-21++ LCA is still not in service.
> 
> For your feeble knowledge, RD-93 is the designation of RD-33s designed for JF-17. They have no vector thrust. The RD-33 does have a vector thrust nozzle but we don't have it.



Who needs to blame China for making cheap copies... infact its good for rest of the world.... there should be cheap 3rd class products as one always realizes the value of the real product.

Our Not in service Mig21++ is still better in terms of electronics when compared to your in service plane... has a better engine... composite air frame... etc... we don't teach our boys to steal.

RD-93 is for a single engine fighter... while RD-33 is for twin engine ones... but that's accepted form you.. you're a chinese after all.



SuperFieryDragon said:


> lol... look at you HAL LCA... even the america help LCA . the LCA can no completed on schedule . you think you have qualifications to ridicule our &#65311; we complete JF7 J8 J10 FC1 J20 J31 .and what about your HAL&#65311;just MIG21 or Su30MKI&#65311; say our stealing . *yes we stealing*&#65281; but your HAL can &#65311; can stealing and then manufacture a Military aircraft &#65311;i don&#8216;t know . but i know . we can &#65281;and now we making progress . Start Independent research and development . we will don&#8217;t need stealing . just by virtue of its own technology manufacture a Military aircraft . J20 Is the best example .



No our HAL cannot steal... since they they are not Chinese.
Why not... according to you since China has been stealing.. Its has already made cheap ripoffs.

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## Beast

veekysingh said:


> so u agree that china does steal tech from others right?



BBC NEWS | Business | Kalashnikov upset by Indian 'copy'



> he Russian company behind the world's most infamous rifle, the Kalashnikov AK-47, is up in arms over an alleged copy made by India's state weapons maker.
> Representatives from Izhmash, the gun's original manufacturer, discovered what they see as an Indian rip-off of the AK-47 at an arms fair in Delhi.
> 
> But India's Ordnance Factory Board says the weapon is different enough to count as a distinct design.
> 
> AK-47 copies are produced in dozens of countries, but only a handful have formally licensed it.
> 
> The row blew up, Izhmash representatives told Agence France Presse news agency, when the man who invented the AK-47 in World War II visited OFB's pavilion at the arms fair and saw what he thought was a copy of his brainchild.
> 
> "I don't see any permission being given to India to manufacture the rifle" and sell it for export, said Izhmash's Andrei Vishnyakov.
> 
> Russia is India's largest supplier of weapons - although not of AK-47s.
> 
> 'Threat'
> 
> The new weapon has yet to appear on OFB's website, which advertises products ranging from pistols to main battle tanks.
> 
> Still, OFB staff were keen to deny the accusation.
> 
> "The cocking mechanism is different, the lever has been changed and the barrel is chrome-plated," OFB gun designer Mohammad Ali told AFP.
> 
> For general manager MK Garg, Izhmash's complaint rests on a false premise.
> 
> "The Russian Kalashnikov was made in 1947 and no patent in the armament industry is valid beyond 30 years," he said.
> 
> "It seems they are threatened by our product."
> 
> Who owns what?
> 
> Izhmash has run into copyright problems before.
> 
> Russian companies spent two years disputing who controlled rights to the AK-47 before Izhmash finally won sole control in 2002.
> 
> But the millions of copies sold in arms bazaars over the world - and appearing on at least one national flag (Mozambique's) as well - have yet to produce much in the way of royalties.



   If we agree! India is equally guilty. But the worst is India has learn nothing out of it. And is the ultimate loser. Look at your pathetic Kaveri Engine. Never even make it prototype and has killed by DRDO.
While our WS-10A engine has power many of our jets to skies... Look carefully, those engine install are not AL-31F but our WS-10A engine.. THis is just few of our indigenuous project. Our Type 052D and J-31 are also going hot.

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## marshall

Beast said:


> It is no surprising, supercomputer aid design of 5th gen stealth fighter. Super computer also helps in making nuclear weapon. Surprising, nulcear weapon and stealth fighter are the 2 thing gaining headline in the last few years about PLA military capabilites.


Accurate data is needed to simulate your models. This is why nuclear weapons testing and wind tunnels are absolutely essential. China is far behind in these aspects despite it's impressive strides.




Beast said:


> As for the technology, I bet you do not know. China now possess the most powerful hydraulic press in the world. Hydraulic press is critical in making huge aircraft component and parts for aeronautic engine. It is the continue dumping of R&D fund by the state that China able to achieve such feat.


You're mistaken concerning aircraft engine parts. These sorts of hydraulic presses are used to forge large single piece items in shipbuilding, nuclear plant construction, certain commercial aircraft wing parts, etc. Basically where welding is not desired. China's biggest weakness when it comes to aeronautic engines has always been in material science. However, this is turning around because China has lead materials science research for years now which has allowed critical bottlenecks to be overcome.




Beast said:


> Su-27 design is great , no doubt about that. A great product of Soviet Era times..
> P-51 Mustang is also great for its time... Shall we move on??


They have the SU-30s, SU-34s, SU-35s, PAK-FA, etc, etc. You know, they can say the same about the J-8F and J-10A which entered service in the last 10 years.


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## gambit

marshall said:


> China's biggest weakness when it comes to aeronautic engines has always been in material science.


Technically speaking, a turbine jet engine is an internal combustion engine. But the difference between this internal combustion engine and the one in our cars is that for the automobile version, metals are subjected to only brief periods of peak operating temperatures and far lower temperatures than the turbine version. That is why we can get away of using ordinary forged steel. For the turbine jet engine, the core blades are under constant peak or very near peak operating temperature throughout flight that could last for one hr or several (intercontinental) hrs.

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## Banglar Lathial

ptldM3 said:


> The &#8216;export version&#8217; argument is simply silly. Almost all aircraft are export aircraft, the J-31 is no different. Shenyang is trying to market the aircraft and its biggest potential buyer would be China, so now explain to everyone why Shenyang would use a supposed downgraded version of the aircraft for marketing.



F-22 is not available for export, it is reportedly the 'best' American (USA) fighter aircraft today. For PRC, the 'best' fighter aircraft is J-20. That is also not available for export. Probably Russian Federation does not want to export its premier air defence system S-400 at the moment, if my memory does not betray me. 



> Again what is your point? Many major engineering companies use supercomputers, if they are not domestic than they are foreign. A supercomputer that was ranked #1 last year would probably not even break the top ten this year, a company that ranked 1st last year may drop to 7th this year.



I think he meant that China is a 'superpower' in the design and production of supercomputers along with Japan and America, at the moment. These countries rotate the mantle for the 'country with the fastest supercomputer in the world' amongst themselves. 




> This is on equipment purchase, unless you have data that compares Chinese equipment purchases its best you say nothing. And annual budgets are not the same, especially when large conscript armies spent a considerable amount of the annual funds just on feeding and housing expenses. Case in point, you made a very vague and general claim that Russia has no funding and now you can&#8217;t support that claim. Can you give me Sukhoi&#8217;s budget? Or Saturn&#8217;s budget? Or Phazatrons&#8217; budget?




China's GDP and state budget is multiple times greater than that of Russia (about 4 or 5 times greater, at least). The publicly stated defence expenditure by China is also multiple times that of Russia, and it is very likely that gap will widen in the near future due to the booming Chinese economy as opposed to the 'trudging' Russian economy. How much of these $650 billion over 10 years promised by Russian government is actually spent also remains to be seen. Russian government is not the best in the world for meeting all of its expectations or promises either.

By the way, I am not insulting Russia or some other country or trying to put you down. I am just trying to bring some facts to your attention which you should have known already, I think, based on your extensive knowledge of aerospace and aeronautics, I would presume.

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## Manticore

China&#8217;s &#8216;Stealth Attack&#8217; on the F-35


Chinese lookalikes are big news these days. Last month, at the murder trial of Gu Kailai, the wife of purged Politburo member Bo Xilai, the Chinese web was abuzz with speculation that the person on the stand was not Gu at all, but a body double masquerading as the defendant. The woman in court, there&#8217;s no denying, looked at best like a plump half-cousin of the Gu we knew.

This week, China produced another lookalike &#8211; only this time the resemblance was far more convincing. The name of China&#8217;s new stealth fighter may have sounded unfamiliar (it&#8217;s called the J-21 or the J-31, depending on your sources), but this was a plane we&#8217;d all seen many times before. It looks like an F-22 from some angles, and an F-35 from others; but there seemed to be no mistaking that this was essentially an American stealth fighter with Chinese paintwork.

China has, of course, been in trouble for intellectual property infringements before. We await Washington and Lockheed Martin&#8217;s submission to the World Trade Organization with interest.

But of all the setbacks to have beset Lockheed&#8217;s F-35 program, this has to be one of the most galling. Overpriced, overdue, and underperforming, the F-35 was already a plane under extreme political pressure. Earlier this month one of the U.S. Air Force generals in charge of the program made it sound as if the government and Lockheed&#8217;s relationship had practically broken down over the stealth jet&#8217;s persistent failings. Deputy Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter has echoed these concerns. Other influential voices have called simply for the thing to be scrapped before its ruins American defense.

Yet all these perfectly good reasons to sell the F-35 prototypes on eBay to plane enthusiasts have so far been trumped by the aircraft&#8217;s one great quality: that it was the strongest competitor in a field of one. Because of this ace characteristic, a number of countries &#8211; besides the program partners &#8211; have already begun ordering the pricey and totally unproven jet. The South Koreans are currently thinking about buying it even though Lockheed has denied them the opportunity to fly one before making their decision. Chances are they&#8217;ll sign up anyway.

Only now a knock-off F-35 appears to be coming to market. Strangely enough, the possibility now exists that the F-35 will have to compete for export sales with a Chinese copy of itself. It&#8217;s hard to pin down the unit price of an F-35, but it&#8217;s at least in the $200 million range (and possibly a lot more). Ten years from now, you&#8217;ll be able to find one for much less than that at the Chinese fake market, especially if you know how to haggle.

In all seriousness there are real economic implications, given that the F-35 needs to secure export orders well into the 2030s and beyond in order to recoup some of its crazy costs. The security implications are also serious. What if the J-21/31 undercuts the F-35 in cost terms while matching it in capability terms? What if, as The Australian newspaper reckons, China has extracted the full F-35 blueprints from BAE Systems&#8217; computers? What if, armed with that knowledge, the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation succeeds where Lockheed has so far failed and builds a Fake-35 that actually works?
*
Speculation aside, the reality is that the F-35 program is presently slated to cost $395.7 billion. China has probably spent less than 0.1% of that developing the Fake-35.* Ladies and gentlemen, you&#8217;re looking at the biggest free ride in the history of national security. 

China&#8217;s &#8216;Stealth Attack&#8217; on the F-35 | Flashpoints | The Diplomat

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## Kompromat

*China Unveils Second Stealth Fighter*


By Bill Sweetman, Richard Fisher, Bradley Perrett
Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology

Bill Sweetman and Richard Fisher Washington and Bradley Perrett Beijing

China's unveiling of a second low-observable (LO) or stealthy fighter, a Shenyang product possibly designated J-31, followed the same pattern as the revelation of the Chengdu J-20 at the end of 2010: Photos were leaked via the Internet on the eve of a U.S. defense secretary's visit to Beijing. The not-too-subtle message, as the U.S. follows through with its plans to shift air and naval forces to the Pacific region, is that China's own military modernization is not slowing down.

The first images of the J-31 show that the aircraft is very different from the large, canard-delta J-20. The Shenyang fighter appears to be much smaller than the J-20, with about two-thirds as much installed power. It is a quad-tail design with a moderately swept clipped-delta wing and large canted vertical tails, with a similar overall layout to the Lockheed Martin F-22&#8212;but more like the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter in terms of overall size. Weapon bays occupy the entire lower body aft of the inlets and ahead of the engine bays (unlike on the J-20, there are no side bays). Flight controls are conventional, with separate rudders and single-piece flaperons.

As in the case of the J-20, most of the stealth-shaping techniques are very similar to those on Lockheed Martin fighters, but the engine nozzles are conventional. The nozzle shape on the prototype is close to that of the Klimov RD-93 engine installation on the Chengdu JF-17 fighter, minus the tapered &#8220;collar&#8221; that fairs the latter's nozzle into the aft fuselage. Thrust vectoring has been studied in China but has not yet been demonstrated in flight.

One common feature of the J-20 and J-31 is that both, from images seen to date, appear to be beyond an &#8220;X-plane&#8221; stage. Both are equipped with weapon bays; both are full-scale demonstrators, and neither appears to use any components of existing aircraft. However, the timing of the development of operational variants and full-scale production remains uncertain. China is continuing the development of conventional non-stealthy fighters, and it remains to be seen when industry there can start producing competitive domestic engines and break the nation's dependency on imported Russian power. (So far, all production JF-17s have been RD-93-powered although a Chinese replacement, the Guizhou WS-13, is under development.)

Although there is no official information campaign for either of China's new stealth fighters, the &#8220;unofficial&#8221; information campaigns allowed to flourish on the Internet by government authorities have been markedly different, revealing much more about the Shenyang fighter.

In September 2011, China's Aviation Industries Corp. (Avic) sponsored a competition for unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) models at the China Aviation Museum outside Beijing, and as part of the attendant displays, the Shenyang University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (SUAA) presented a model of a twin-engine stealthy fighter with the F-60 designator on the canted vertical stabilizer. SUAA has been involved in UAV, UCAV and now fighter design work for Shenyang.

Late in June, a crudely covered full-scale fighter, without its vertical stabilizers, was openly transported on a flatbed truck from Shenyang to Yanliang Air Base near the major aerospace city of Xian, home of the China Flight Test Establishment of the People's Liberation Army Air Force. At the time, there was speculation that this aircraft was intended for Yanliang's static stress-testing facilities. The aircraft shape was broadly similar to the SUAA model. 

One reason for this difference, according to some Chinese sources, is that Shenyang's fighter may not be a fully air force-funded program, but an initiative derived from its losing competitor to the Chengdu J-20. The various plants of the Avic group, such as Chengdu Aircraft and Shenyang Aircraft, have a long tradition of rivalry. To overcome that, the group began bundling them together from 2008 into specialist subsidiaries in which they were supposed to work together. But the defense ministry opposed tight integration of the defense subsidiary&#8212;including Chengdu and Shenyang&#8212;in order to maintain closer control and probably to retain and foster competition among them.

But it is also possible that Shenyang's fighter does have an official sponsor: the Chinese navy. Shenyang is the builder of the navy's first carrier-based fighter&#8211;the Sukhoi Su-33-derived J-15. The J-31 would be more adaptable to carrier operations than the bigger J-20&#8212;although it might still need enhancements such as a bigger wing, an improved high-lift and control system, and thrust vectoring. Finally, the J-31 could be a smaller, less costly complement to the J-20. 

China Unveils Second Stealth Fighter

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## zhengguoguangxi

how American f plane? f16 f22 f35? they will have f 100 too


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## zhengguoguangxi

j31 is the aircraft carrier plane, it use on the aircraft carrier.


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## anarchy 99

J-31 is better than the F-22. It's more stealthy too. And it doesn't suffocate the pilot from the lack of oxygen.
J-31 is far more advanced than the F-35.

We will be able to thrash the US military just like during the Korean War.

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## danger007

anarchy 99 said:


> J-31 is better than the F-22. It's more stealthy too. And it doesn't suffocate the pilot from the lack of oxygen.
> J-31 is far more advanced than the F-35.
> 
> We will be able to thrash the US military just like during the Korean War.



trillion dollars joke....


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## gagaga

anarchy 99 said:


> J-31 is better than the F-22. It's more stealthy too. And it doesn't suffocate the pilot from the lack of oxygen.
> J-31 is far more advanced than the F-35.
> 
> We will be able to thrash the US military just like during the Korean War.



its like saying Indian Gorshkov is better than Varyag.

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## Esc8781

anarchy 99 said:


> J-31 is better than the F-22. It's more stealthy too. And it doesn't suffocate the pilot from the lack of oxygen.
> J-31 is far more advanced than the F-35.
> 
> We will be able to thrash the US military just like during the Korean War.


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## xkasx

We knew about the Chengdu J-20&#8212;China's fifth generation stealth fighter. As it turns out, it's not the only one. According to China Defense Blog, this is the J-21/J31. It looks even more like the F-22 Raptor than the Chengdu.

China Defense Blog says that this new plane is being developed by China's 601 Aircraft Design Institute/Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. It appears to be the very first flying prototype, serial 001.

As if we didn't have enough problems with China developing one stealth plane, now they have two in the works. And in a quite advanced state, according to these photos. [CDB and CDB]























Refs:

Leaked Photos Show a New Chinese Fifth Generation Stealth Jet Fighter

China Defense Blog: Could this be first photos of J-21/J-31, SAC/601's answer to Chengdu's J-20?


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## veekysingh

isnt these pictures are posted here befor too?


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## best88

anarchy 99 said:


> J-31 is better than the F-22. It's more stealthy too. And it doesn't suffocate the pilot from the lack of oxygen.
> J-31 is far more advanced than the F-35.
> 
> We will be able to thrash the US military just like during the Korean War.



Man oh man, this is a good one!!! lol. You made my day!!


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## Nefory

anarchy 99 said:


> J-31 is better than the F-22. It's more stealthy too. And it doesn't suffocate the pilot from the lack of oxygen.
> J-31 is far more advanced than the F-35.
> 
> We will be able to thrash the US military just like during the Korean War.



You sir, remind me some of our lovely neighbors:



xkasx said:


> We knew about the Chengdu J-20&#8212;China's fifth generation stealth fighter. As it turns out, it's not the only one. According to China Defense Blog, this is the J-21/J31. It looks even more like the F-22 Raptor than the Chengdu.
> 
> China Defense Blog says that this new plane is being developed by China's 601 Aircraft Design Institute/Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. It appears to be the very first flying prototype, serial 001.
> 
> As if we didn't have enough problems with China developing one stealth plane, now they have two in the works. And in a quite advanced state, according to these photos. [CDB and CDB]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Refs:
> 
> Leaked Photos Show a New Chinese Fifth Generation Stealth Jet Fighter
> 
> China Defense Blog: Could this be first photos of J-21/J-31, SAC/601's answer to Chengdu's J-20?



In fact, there are more than just 2 "stealthy" projects going on. XAC is also developing a stealth jet (Not JH7B) which is far larger and has different role. Both CAC and SAC have at least 2 stealth jet projects going on.


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## cirr

parked where engine trial runs are carried out&#65306;

deleted

taxing imminent&#12290;

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## ChineseLuver



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## Donation

31001&#27491;&#35299;&#26159;310&#24037;&#31243;01&#21495;&#26426;


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## Dazzler

zhengguoguangxi said:


> how American f plane? f16 f22 f35? they will have f 100 too



Apparently, they had F-100 Super Saber during 1950s, now going backwards


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## Jango

nabil_05 said:


> Apparently, they had F-100 Super Saber during 1950s, now going backwards



There was a whole century series, consisting of 5 aircraft.

F-100
F-101
F-102
F-104
F-105
F-106

Don't know about their prefixes except F-105 Thunderchief.


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> There was a whole century series, consisting of 5 aircraft.
> 
> F-100
> F-101
> F-102
> F-104
> F-105
> F-106
> 
> Don't know about their prefixes except F-105 Thunderchief.



F 100 Super Sabre
F 101 Voodoo 
F 102 Delta Dagger
F 104 Star Fighter
F 105 Thunder Chief
F 106 Delta Dart.

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## cirr

Maiden flights for J-31001 and J-15S in the next 2 weeks.

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## Beast

cirr said:


> Maiden flights for J-31001 and J-15S in the next 2 weeks.



Care share your source?


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## giant panda

Combat-Aircraft-Monthly-November-2012-US


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## WS-10 Engine

Huitong updated his review of the J-15 saying a stealth carrier-based fighter under development at CAC.


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## cirr




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## Esc8781

Kind of off topic, but can anyone describe what aircraft is this?


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## no_name

Early design of the JSF project.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Esc8781 said:


> Kind of off topic, but can anyone describe what aircraft is this?



This one ALSO named as X-32, was a Lockheed Martins Test aircraft and was proposed under JSF category. No more details are available now. If you type X-32 in google images and search then you will see its pictures as well with the UGLY one Boeing X-32. 

P.S. I studied this aircraft back in 2002-3 for the first time  

a couple of Links related to this bird.
http://www.*********************/me...ew-generation-fighter-72-4260.html#post132376
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-10918-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-30.html


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## Esc8781

danger-zone said:


> This one ALSO named as X-32, was a Lockheed Martins Test aircraft and was proposed under JSF category. No more details are available now. If you type X-32 in google images and search then you will see its pictures as well with the UGLY one Boeing X-32.
> 
> P.S. I studied this aircraft back in 2002-3 for the first time
> 
> a couple of Links related to this bird.
> http://www.*********************/me...ew-generation-fighter-72-4260.html#post132376
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-10918-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-30.html


Yes I believe it is called the JAST, the canard create extra vortex making it easier to detect, and kid of slower. The reasons why they abandoned this design.


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## bhedgehog

Nefory said:


> You sir, remind me some of our lovely neighbors:



Unfortunately, those neighbors you mentioned may not be able to understand your joke........... Because they've never thought about themselves in this way..........


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## cirr

Maiden flight this week&#12290;


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## cirr

High-speed taxing tests successfully completed&#65292;maiden flight tomorrow if everything goes according to plan&#12290;


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## Kompromat

cirr said:


> High-speed taxing tests successfully completed&#65292;maiden flight tomorrow if everything goes according to plan&#12290;



Waiting for videos.


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## rcrmj

cirr said:


> High-speed taxing tests successfully completed&#65292;maiden flight tomorrow if everything goes according to plan&#12290;



where did you get this bloody info``?


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## Kompromat



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## April.lyrics

now CD forum is full of discussion of maiden flight.


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## Donation



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## Sasquatch

April.lyrics said:


> now CD forum is full of discussion of maiden flight.



On Sina discussions now.


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## Kompromat

All, right guys make sure you keep us in the loop with discussion on CDF and Sina.

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## Obambam

It is that 2011 feeling again.


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## hk299792458

Information from chinese CD forum, saying that *310-01* of Project 310 had performed several high speed taxiing today, and the front gear had left the ground.

The maid flight on October 31st seems to be confirmed since a big ceremony is in preparation.


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## cirr

Maiden flight lasted some 10 mins&#65306;

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## cirr

Accompanied by a pair of J-11BSs&#65292;&#8220;310&#8221; soared into the air at 10.32 Beijing Time this morning&#65306;

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## skyknight

Now waiting for the photos to come out

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## skyknight



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## cirr

Let's hope that the other &#8220;thing&#8221; also makes its maiden flight today&#65281;&#65281;

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## conworldus

Good going!

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## kkacer

*Very Bad News for India: Chinese New Stealth Fighter J31 First Flight*

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/10/31/1031115644327.JPG

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/10/31/103111580193.JPG


9:00 am J-31 aircraft are standby

9:23 crewmen lined up

9:35 site security upgraded, maintenance is cleaning up the runway

10:22 J31 and another one the J11BS pulled to the runway!

10:32 J31 has taken off!!!!!!!!!

10:33 under the 11BS accompanied, J31, smooth first flight!!

10:43 J31 smooth landing


Very Bad News for India, Where is T50 PAK FA?

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## somebozo

First Look at the J-31, China's Newest Stealth Jet | Geekosystem

China unveils its brand new stealth fighter: the J-31 &#8220;Falcon Eagle&#8221;. But it&#8217;s a copy of the F-22 Raptor « The Aviationist


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## kkacer

1 month ago

http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/10/31/1031121225952.JPG


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## untitled

kkacer said:


> Very Bad News for India, Where is our T50 PAK FA?



By OUR do you mean India or China ?

Should not this thread be in China Defence ?

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## third eye

Whats very bad news about it ?

Sensationalism ??

If someone makes an aircraft - it was meant to fly surely.

Allow India the skills to be abreast of its environment as any nation would be.


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## KS

Ashtar Galactic command and Reptilians beware. Earth is stronger than before with the first test flight of J-31..

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## sexy gun

After the photoshopped J15 landing on Varyag.. this is another epic post from kkacer


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## deepak.chauhan2312

why should this be very bad news for India. India is not enemy of China it is a rival of china

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## RKhan

Could this just be another j20 prototype?


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## SamranAli

congratz China.

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## laman12345

RKhan said:


> Could this just be another j20 prototype?



No

J20 = F22
J31 = F35


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## mosu

congratulations to chinese brothers


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## sweetgrape

Good, being found by public, about one month later, it finished its maiden flight, china warplane develop too fast, even beyond most chinese expect..
Good, hope they keep fast and stable.....

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## mosu

congratulation to chinese brothers

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## 帅的一匹

We will have navy stealthy jet ASAP, congrats china !

We will have navy stealthy jet ASAP, congrats china !


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## rcrmj

congrats``I followed Chinese forums``no clear pictures and videos yet````some 'big fish' said it will release them later``looking forward


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## ironman1

ya ya a chinese fighter which can fly ! i am impressed !

well whatever !
any stealth you can get from imported non-stealth engines and comparing your aircrafts to f-22, f-35 , you are welcome to it. but kindly do not post such mental abuse in indian section !


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## xuxu1457

This is no matter with India

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## SamranAli

great indeed.


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## BLEND

I hope this two chinese are not representing the chinese population here.


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## isro2222

@Kkacer are you on a mission to insult china?.... A country which has su-30MKI and will have dassault rafale, Pak-fa cant be scared by any fighter china produce.... Stop spreading hatred and provoking people.... Think about ur defence instead of war.... The more you talk about india the more you are showing china worried about india.... Spread peace or else you will go 500km deep inside earth which is known as hell as all bad karmic goes there when they leave body....

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## Alfa-Fighter

kkacer said:


> *Very Bad News for India: Chinese New Stealth Fighter J31 First Flight*
> 
> http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/10/31/1031115644327.JPG
> 
> http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/10/31/103111580193.JPG
> 
> 
> 9:00 am J-31 aircraft are standby
> 
> 9:23 crewmen lined up
> 
> 9:35 site security upgraded, maintenance is cleaning up the runway
> 
> 10:22 J31 and another one the J11BS pulled to the runway!
> 
> 10:32 J31 has taken off!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 10:33 under the 11BS accompanied, J31, smooth first flight!!
> 
> 10:43 J31 smooth landing
> 
> 
> Very Bad News for India, Where is T50 PAK FA?









Started Flying long time back, you kid .....


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## Zarvan

China is doing really fast are they planning to develop 4 or 5 Stealth Planes at a time ?


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## Pakistanisage

Would like more information on this prototype...

Good job by our Chinese Friends...


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## laman12345

Andross said:


> How many test flights has J20 completed?



1. J20 (2001) = 110 times
2. J20 (2002) = 30 times
3. J20 (2003) = 10 times


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## laman12345

Andross said:


> Prove it with a credible link



2 Nov, 2011 (50times)
30 Aug, 2012 (110 times)

Video: Chinese
http://v.ku6.com/show/FezOeIJbKCYd1FGj.html

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## laman12345

Andross said:


> I said credible link ie a Chinese well known newspaper not some fanboy site



many chinese watching in the airport nearby everyday, you can come to visit chinese website (including many updated videos, pictures, data)
http://lt.cjdby.net/forum-4-1.html

or bury your head into sand

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## qwerrty

..............................

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## bhedgehog

Congregations!
I believe if everything goes fine, Pakistan brothers will be the first country we export J-31 to.

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## Merilion



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## skyknight

bhedgehog said:


> Congregations!
> I believe if everything goes fine, Pakistan brothers will be the first country we export J-31 to.


Pakistan always has the priority,
Pakistan is the first foreign user of Beidou&#65292; user trial has began in Karachi recently

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## Varunastra

laman12345 said:


> 2 Nov, 2011 (50times)
> 30 Aug, 2012 (110 times)
> 
> Video: Chinese
> ¹ú²úJ20Õ½»úµÚ50´ÎÊÔ·É³É¹¦¾«²ÊÆ¬¶ÎÊµÂ¼ ÔÚÏß¹Û¿´ - ¿á6ÊÓÆµ



BY Nov 2011 PAK-FA had completed it's 100th flight
feb 2012 -120 flights
by now -much more


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## laman12345

Andross said:


> The first flight was 2 years ago yes but we do not know the number of exact flights conducted and is it in production? nope



test flight almost 2-3 times a week, over 110 times in Aug, 2012. we have got three J20 fighters now. are u so sour grapes can't accept the reality?



UDAYCAMPUS said:


> BY Nov 2011 PAK-FA had completed it's 100th flight
> feb 2012 -120 flights
> by now -much more



almost 200 times flights by Aug, 2012 (#1 J20, #2 J20 and #3 J20)

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## skyknight

No need to stick to this troll thread&#65292;if you guys want to do some serious discussion&#65292;click here
Shenyang J-31: News & Discussions

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## Srinivas

What about J20?
*I always felt that J20 by design itself will not qualify as a formidable fighter and China has another stealth jet with will counter PAK-FA and it turned out true.*

Competition is between PAKFA and J31 and PAK FA is miles ahead in its development.

These Chinese, they always chest thump when they see these defense toys just like kids


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## laman12345

Andross said:


> You have prototypes of J20 which is still being tested but not in production and there is no evidence to show how many flights it has completed apart from you providing some video from a cheap Chinese fanboy site



ok, bury your head into sands and be happy

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## Awesome

Nothing new here, follow this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/207796-shenyang-j-31-news-discussions.html


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## no_name



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## rcrmj

no_name said:


>



definitly no side bays for vision range air-air missile

and it looks fatty too``lol


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## phater

To people who've been peeping on Chinese secret air base!


Use damn DSLR please?


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## ababeel22

nice!..... looking forward fr some more pics and vids


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## cirr

phater said:


> To people who've been peeping on Chinese secret air base!
> 
> 
> Use damn DSLR please?



Be patient&#12290;

People are pushing the envelope to see how far they can go regarding the clarity of the photos they may make public&#12290;


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## Windjammer

skyknight said:


> Pakistan always has the priority,
> Pakistan is the first foreign user of Beidou&#65292; user trial has began in Karachi recently



The J-11 looks very impressive and the J-20 out of this world, but this baby is surely the winner for me and i would love to see it in Pakistani colours.......congratulations to the Chinese friends.

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## cirr



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## Kompromat

cirr said:


> *
> Let's hope that the other thing also makes its maiden flight today&#65281;&#65281;*



What ?????

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## Kompromat

Wait begins here....

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## cirr

Aeronaut said:


> What ?????



Nothing particularly special&#12290;

Weather permitting&#65292;J-15S is likely to make its maiden flight this weekend&#12290;

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## Broccoli



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## Kompromat

cirr said:


> Nothing particularly special&#12290;
> 
> Weather permitting&#65292;J-15S is likely to make its maiden flight this weekend&#12290;



Two seater J-15 ?


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## Nestea



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## Icecreamcart

Very good 

I wonder if the next few prototypes are near completion.


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## cirr

310&#8216;s escort carrying a camera/video pod

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## Agent X

laman12345 said:


> Big Mouth India with *LCA 3th fighters is laughing at Chinese J20 & J31 5th stealth fighters*



3rd Gen. LCA and Fifth Gen. J20, J31 .........................Are you laughing at your own joke???


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## Icecreamcart

Very good comparison pics.

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## Windjammer

cirr said:


> 310s escort carrying a camera/video pod



Two ship chase plane for the J-31.

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## Kompromat



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## Kompromat



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## Nestea



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## Windjammer

^^^^^^^^^^^
Good compact size for a twin engine fighter, much smaller than the J-11.....A sure winner in every aspect.


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## lakdi

Please tell me how many technologies that solar bear plans to share with you. India devote how much to the development of T-50 or the you will prefer PAK-FA. A country with advanced military power is never based on buying other countries' goods, like India does. If India develops its own 5th Gen air fighters one day in the future, I will respect you. Otherwise, please admit the rapid progress of China Air Force. Depending on other countries, only makes you become a cripple.


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## cirr

Wondering when pictures of China's &#8220;X-47B&#8221; will be appearing the way photos of &#8220;310&#8221; are now&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;


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## Kompromat

A video will be much appreciated.


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## 帅的一匹

J11 is really big! J31 is a must for china navy, I love this bird.

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## Kompromat

Dark greenish areas on J-15 are composite materials.



Windjammer said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> Good compact size for a twin engine fighter, much smaller than the J-11.....A sure winner in every aspect.



Its the Same size as the super hornet.

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## lakdi

Rafale (French made, definitely you will pay for it), Pak-fa (Up to now, has never been produced or tested in India, seems you share the development budget). Without France or Russia, where do you plan to get the air fighters? Nepal? Mongolia? Iraq?


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## 帅的一匹

lakdi said:


> Please tell me how many technologies that solar bear plans to share with you. India devote how much to the development of T-50 or the you will prefer PAK-FA. A country with advanced military power is never based on buying other countries' goods, like India does. If India develops its own 5th Gen air fighters one day in the future, I will respect you. Otherwise, please admit the rapid progress of China Air Force. Depending on other countries, only makes you become a cripple.


yes, they provide 30 billions hard cash in PAK FA, nothing more.........I mean they really lagging behind in terms of 5 gen. Cash could buy everything in the market, except for a real 5 gen fighter. T50 is not a real 5 gen, more like a rip off machine in the making.


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## hk299792458

Finally, these idems shown in the last Zhuhai airshow are them dedicated for this Project 310 ? If so, do anyone know which subcontrators work for Project 310, and which elase for Project 718 ?

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## Windjammer

Aeronaut said:


> Dark greenish areas on J-15 are composite materials.
> 
> 
> 
> Its the Same size as the super hornet.



Which makes it roughly ten feet longer than J-10 and 15 feet shorter than the J-11 Family........ ideal size platform. !!

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## Kompromat

Its a good news for WS-13A -- hence for JFT too

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## 帅的一匹

I smell that sour grape in the making.......

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## Stealth

Seriously after 10 Years... China will definitely near to US - Russian military hardware! they are doing.... simply WOW! still waiting for the real specs of all Chinese Aircraft's J20, J31, J10B and J11.... just wanted to know Range/Payload/Radar....

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## Kompromat

Stealth said:


> Seriously after 10 Years... China will definitely near to US - Russian military hardware! they are doing.... simply WOW! still waiting for the real specs of all Chinese Aircraft's J20, J31, J10B and J11.... just wanted to know Range/Payload/Radar....



You should develop a CGI for this air craft

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## skyknight

deepak.chauhan2312 said:


> why u r saying them friends...u can call them daddy but they are not going to give that to you at least in next 20 yrs.....


Pakistan is our friends and brothers ,any problem?
Pakistan will get its 5-gen fighters in the next 10 years, maybe even earlier than India.
How about having a bet&#65292;
The Chinese military industry will tell you what is*China Efficiency*

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## Donation

skyknight said:


> Pakistan is our friends and brothers ,any problem?
> Pakistan will get its 5-gen fighters in the next 10 years, maybe even earlier than India.
> How about having a bet&#65292;
> The Chinese military industry will tell you what is*China Efficiency*



Liar, China quit charity alike foreign policy 30 years ago when Deng back to power, he realize how Chinese military aid for Albania are wasted, the jet, 310 fighter, China would sell it to anyone who are able to pay for it.


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## cirr



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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

cirr said:


>



Dude, you forgot to add your usual coffee smiley.


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## Obambam

Donation said:


> Liar, *China quit charity* alike foreign policy 30 years ago when Deng back to power, he realize how Chinese military aid for Albania are wasted, the jet, 310 fighter, China would sell it to anyone who are able to pay for it.



If you have nothing positive to contribute, please say nothing at all young sock puppet.
Stop polluting a perfectly good thread with your intentional malicious f!lth - 'Sir. I don't Donate'.

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## zhumenggaofei

Believe the news or not,it's up to you.But it's definitely that the Chinese government won't release any news about it just as J10.


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## ababeel22

whats the engine??? the pervious pics showed more shiny nozzle, this is more blackish and different.... is it ws13???


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## Echo_419

skyknight said:


> Pakistan is our friends and brothers ,any problem?
> Pakistan will get its 5-gen fighters in the next 10 years, maybe even earlier than India.
> How about having a bet&#65292;
> The Chinese military industry will tell you what is*China Efficiency*




Well i think chinese will be able to match us & russia 10-15 years that is all gonna take them 
Chinese own industry is doing great & most of all THEY DELIVER ON TIME
After all the next century is a chinese one


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## sweetgrape

ababeel22 said:


> whats the engine??? the pervious pics showed more shiny nozzle, this is more blackish and different.... is it ws13???


I am very interesting in the engine too, If can comfirm that it is domestic one, that's a very very good news for chinese!!
Hope china can fund more money into basic science, especially in material, component, manufacuting machine!


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## mylovepakistan



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## GORKHALI

wanglaokan said:


> yes, they provide 30 billions hard cash in PAK FA, nothing more.........I mean they really lagging behind in terms of 5 gen. *Cash could buy everything in the market, except for a real 5 gen fighter*. T50 is not a real 5 gen, more like a rip off machine in the making.



Ummmmm Now you just started so if you would like to enlighten us with your inside out views and technological superiority with Supa dupa IQ level about PAK FA ?? How it's not a 5th GEN ?

Am so surprised that you going to teach your Daddy(Russia) , how to F**K?? 

God bless you!!!


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## Aramsogo

wanglaokan said:


> I smell that sour grape in the making.......



No, sour mango, not grape.

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## Broccoli



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## Aramsogo

Broccoli said:


>



This thing with tactical nukes would be awesome. Yes, a DF-21 is cheaper, but this thing can take video/pics of Delhi afterwards and a Dong-feng can't.

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## UKBengali

Congrats to China!

Now the question must be:

Is it using WS-13 engines or RD-33?

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## kafumanpk

Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable engine.


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## 帅的一匹

kafumanpk said:


> Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable engine.



Your brain farts, period.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

kafumanpk said:


> Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable engine.



Indeed but we still able to make it flight high...that's the result of American embargo.

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## krash

cirr said:


>



http://img4.bbs.**********/uploadfiles/images/2012/10/31/1031121225952.JPG

So no "misfit" engines. The color of the petals has changed. But more interestingly, if you look close enough, the engine 'slots' on the fuselage now have serrated edges. So did they work that into the fuselage only now? Could it be that this is a different bird than the one we saw before? Remember that the J-20 had two different prototypes supporting two different types of engines.


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## Obambam

kafumanpk said:


> Why did Chinese want to develop stealth aircraft? If only to protect themselves, then attack aircraft is absolutely no need to research and development. Asian countries must be highly vigilant, Chinese ambitions in the ever-expanding, must be wary of military aggression. Even if Pakistan and Chinese are friends, but it should also dike Chinese more territorial claims. Chinese army is infiltrated Kashmir, they will be hanging around and not ready to leave. Chinese are a cancer in Asia, the long-term potential threat is your real enemy, absolutely do not believe that your enemy. But you can take full advantage of them in the short term, require more assistance, more money and weapons.



It is needed for safeguarding our own national interests, much like what America are doing, only milder. Having the ability to make stealth enables us to create things to counter stealth. Reserving our rights to perform the secret technique - 'palms of the hidden mists' will make aggressors think twice. There are several countries wantimg to obtain this technique if not, are practicing this peaceful art already.

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## Esc8781

I actually doubt this is its first flight.


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## Obambam

Esc8781 said:


> I actually doubt this is its first flight.



Don't crash the party. 
At least the plane kept its landing gears down throughout, much like J-20 on its maiden flight.
Lets just assume it is ok?

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## Sasquatch

Stick to the topic please.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Hu Songshan said:


> Stick to the topic please.



Of course, how dare we the evil Chinese to defy americain's monopoply in Stealth fighters business, J-20 and now J-31 for the best and the worst, It's an affront and insult to American's inteliigent community.

if China wants to sucess, it should be not afraid to adventure into the uncharted scientific domains. I give  to Chinese teams on J-20 and J-31.

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## Sasquatch

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Of course, how dare we the evil Chinese to defy americain's monopoply in Stealth fighters business, J-20 and now J-31 for the best and the worst, It's an affront and insult to American's inteliigent community.
> 
> if China wants to sucess, it should be not afraid to adventure into the uncharted scientific domains. I give  to Chinese teams on J-20 and J-31.



That discussion of China defying America should be discussed here if one should open a thread about it 
China & Far East

So I would kindly say to all stick to topic the J-31 otherwise I will delete derailing comments.


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## itaskol

J31 photo and video first flight
I dont know how to change 56 video into youtube video
this J31 video is cool...

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## Water Car Engineer

This is way better looking than the J-20. In my top 3 best looking fighters list. It will look better with air force colors.

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## Alfa-Fighter

lakdi said:


> Please tell me how many technologies that solar bear plans to share with you. India devote how much to the development of T-50 or the you will prefer PAK-FA. A country with advanced military power is never based on buying other countries' goods, like India does. If India develops its own 5th Gen air fighters one day in the future, I will respect you. Otherwise, please admit the rapid progress of China Air Force. Depending on other countries, only makes you become a cripple.



We do not stole and hack in technologies , pentagon and US congress cities many hacking into F-22 manufacturer computer and stole TB's of data . want a link ? and and made a plane with stole data , i think didn't got access of engine thats why plane look same form front only. 

what about engines? Super power?


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## 帅的一匹

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Of course, how dare we the evil Chinese to defy americain's monopoply in Stealth fighters business, J-20 and now J-31 for the best and the worst, It's an affront and insult to American's inteliigent community.
> 
> if China wants to sucess, it should be not afraid to adventure into the uncharted scientific domains. I give  to Chinese teams on J-20 and J-31.



Not to mention numerous Chinese origin engineeres help USA to develop hi-tech like 5 gen fighters....USA is a mixed hot pot



Alfa-Fighter said:


> We do not stole and hack in technologies , pentagon and US congress cities many hacking into F-22 manufacturer computer and stole TB's of data . want a link ? and and made a plane with stole data , i think didn't got access of engine thats why plane look same form front only.
> 
> what about engines? Super power?


We are making huge progress, India is void in this aspect. Kaveri, just forget it.

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## xuxu1457



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## xuxu1457

AMF


















J-11BS

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## bhedgehog

I have uploaded the video of maiden flight to youtube, but I do not have the authority (less than 15 posts....) to include the video in my post. Could anyone share the video to this thread?

[China J-21/J-31/F-60 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Maiden Flight on Oct 31]just search this on youtube

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## bhedgehog

China J-21/J-31/F-60 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Maiden Flight on Oct 31 - YouTube
Finally. 
Forgive those meaningless posts I wrote to get the authority of posting videos.............

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## Obambam

Anticipating clearer footages. I believe those will be released in the next couple of days.

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## WS-10 Engine

Alfa-Fighter said:


> We do not stole and hack in technologies , pentagon and US congress cities many hacking into F-22 manufacturer computer and stole TB's of data . want a link ? and and made a plane with stole data , i think didn't got access of engine thats why plane look same form front only.
> 
> what about engines? Super power?



Indians can't reverse engineer and definitely can't innovate.
What the hell can you do?

Kaveri? 

We will do ANYTHING to make our military as strong as possible to put ANY regime into the scrap heap of history if they ever test us!

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## Obambam

WS-10 Engine said:


> Indians can't reverse engineer and definitely can't innovate.
> What the hell can you do?
> 
> Kaveri?
> 
> We will do ANYTHING to make our military as strong as possible to put ANY regime into the scrap heap of history if they ever test us!



Don't blame them for smashing the <Del> or <Backspace> keys and the occasional (Ctrl+Alt+Del). They have been doing the same thing for God knows how long.

People should admire them for keeping their worktops clean. However, to be like Germany; America, Russia and China, you really needs to get down and dirty. They will understand this 'one day'.

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## Kompromat

I, can safely say that the operational version of this air craft will undoubtedly be one of the most aesthetically beautiful air crafts in the world.

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## bhedgehog

Alfa-Fighter said:


> We do not stole and hack in technologies , pentagon and US congress cities many hacking into F-22 manufacturer computer and stole TB's of data . want a link ? and and made a plane with stole data , i think didn't got access of engine thats why plane look same form front only.
> 
> what about engines? Super power?



You did not steal because you did not know how...................... just like in many other areas that you are incapable for 

I am sorry. Just wait for Russians to fool you again ~~

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## Obambam

Aeronaut said:


> I, can safely say that the operational version of this air craft will undoubtedly be one of the most aesthetically beautiful air crafts in the world.



I concur


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## Obambam

xuxu1457 said:


>



Xuxu, I believe you got your imageries mixed up here. That thing at the bottom shouldn't be there.


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## WS-10 Engine

Obambam said:


> Xuxu, I believe you got your imageries mixed up here. That thing at the bottom shouldn't be there.



The thing at the bottom is the F-35, which is not even stealth.
To compare the stealth J-31 to the F-35 is an insult to the J-31.


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## Kompromat



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## no_name

Because of the monotone background and pretty good picture quality, and because at this angle and lighting the plane offers almost no depth perception, I at first look thought it was a ps.

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## lakdi

Alfa-Fighter said:


> We do not stole and hack in technologies , pentagon and US congress cities many hacking into F-22 manufacturer computer and stole TB's of data . want a link ? and and made a plane with stole data , i think didn't got access of engine thats why plane look same form front only.
> 
> what about engines? Super power?


link...please..


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## 500

Great looking plane. J-31 looks like F-35 supposed to be if not the unification with VTOL version. It has a good chance to became the best multirole fighter and obviously it will be a backbone of PLAAF in the future.

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## shuttler

What was that red stuff hanging out from the fuselage?



WS-10 Engine said:


> The thing at the bottom is the F-35, which is not even stealth.
> To compare the stealth J-31 to the F-35 is an insult to the J-31.



yeah the difference is obvious!




kafumanpk said:


> Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable engine.



indian cheerleaders have already wet their pants on sight of several ps!

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## qwerrty

beside the intakes, it looks more f-22 than f-35


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## 帅的一匹

A mini F22 with DSI intake, what a nice bird. Actually what is the engine used?

RD93 or WS13?


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## 帅的一匹

Rumor said the gap between the nozzle and engine is due to delay of chinese indigenous 9500kg thrust engine which is supposed to be bigger thsn russian one, not for TVC.


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## 500

For comparison F-35:

Length: 15.67 m
Wingspan: 10.7 m

J-31 is 3.3% longer and has 5.5% more wingspan than F-35.

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## Donation



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## shuttler

F-35 vs J31

meter = &#31859;

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## DANGER-ZONE

wanglaokan said:


> *Actually what is the engine used?
> 
> RD93 or WS13?*



See the Image Below .... Its RD-93. 
Still not convinced take a look at different pictures of JF-17 & MIG-29.



Donation said:


>


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## shuttler

&#27784;&#39134;4&#20195;&#31933;&#23376;&#26426;J31&#24033;&#33322;&#38035;&#40060;&#23707;&#8212;&#8212;kemo&#28608;&#20809;&#38613;&#21051;iphone4s&#25163;&#26426;&#22771;

laser engraving an image of "J31 patrolling over Diaoyu Islands" on an iphone casing

youku: &#27784;&#39134;4&#20195;&#31933;&#23376;&#26426;J31&#24033;&#33322;&#38035;&#40060;&#23707;&#8212;&#8212;kemo&#28608;&#20809;&#38613;&#21051;iphone4s&#25163;&#26426;&#22771;

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## krash

shuttler said:


> What was that red stuff hanging out from the fuselage?



Its the inside of the landing gear compartment and the compartment door. The landing gear were not retracted during the flight, as is tradition with maiden flights of Chinese birds.

ps: Let the PAF have one to color it pretty, remove the cockpit strut and we've got a pageant winner here.

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## hk299792458

Video of maiden flight...


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## hk299792458



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## Yasir_Tiger

*There is some more news about maiden flight of SAC J-31*

China's Second Stealth Fighter J-31 Makes Its Maiden Flight ~ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


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## hk299792458

Can someone change the title of this thread - The official reference of J-xx can only be attributed to program officially recognized, which is not the case here for this private program from AVIC.

At most we can call it Project 310, but surely not J-31...


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## Amuroray

Chinas getting there.


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## 500



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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

500 said:


> Great looking plane. J-31 looks like F-35 supposed to be if not the unification with VTOL version. It has a good chance to became the best multirole fighter and obviously it will be a backbone of PLAAF in the future.



We're looking forward to see China-Israel will be back into full military cooperation one day...maybe you will have something interesting to offer for our J-31 upgrade


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## Zarvan

China has test flown a second model of a prototype stealth fighter, aviation experts said Thursday, in a sign of its aircraft industry's growing sophistication.
Photos posted to the Internet Thursday showed the radar-avoiding aircraft airborne near the northeastern city of Shenyang with its landing gear still down. Two Chinese-made J-11 fighters accompanied it on the flight, which Chinese military enthusiast websites said took place Wednesday and lasted about 10 minutes.
Ross Babbage of Australia's Kokoda Foundation and Greg Waldron of Fliightglobal magazine in Singapore said the plane known as the J-31 appeared to be a smaller version of the J-20 prototype that was tested last year in the southwestern city of Chengdu.
While both planes feature stealth design features, their true capabilities in terms of sensors, radar-absorbing coatings, and other key factors remain unknown. It isn't known when, or if, either plane will go into production.
"I think it's a fairly straight forward evolution to develop advanced fighters at this time, but you can't read too much into it in terms of capabilities," Waldron told The Associated Press.
The smaller and nimbler J-31 appeared intended for a fighter-interceptor role similar to the U.S. Joint Strike Fighter, while the heavier J-20 would target airfields, warships and other ground targets, he said.
The technical barriers and development costs for such aircraft are enormous and the U.S. has struggled for years to deliver on their potential.
Another major challenge for China is developing engines for its fighters that are reliable and capable enough for such cutting-edge aircraft, Babbage said. China remains overwhelmingly reliant on Russia for engines for its latest J-10, J-11, and J-15 models, the last two of which were developed from Russian Sukhoi fighter-bombers.
"The demands in the engine area are very substantial," Babbage said.
Despite that, the ability to develop two prototype stealth fighters at the same time demonstrates an impressive capability on the part of the Chinese industry, he said.
"It's a very interesting development. It shows how rapidly they're moving ahead."


Read more: Photos show second China stealth fighter prototype has test flight | Fox News


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## kafumanpk

It's just a mere imitation of F22 and F35 shape, and I do not think this is a stealth aircraft, it is only a Third-generation aircraft, the Chinese version of the F18.


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## shuttler

kafumanpk said:


> It's just a mere imitation of F22 and F35 shape, and I do not think this is a stealth aircraft, it is only a *Third-generation aircraft, the Chinese version of the F18*.



how do you know? do you have the parameters?


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## 500

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> We're looking forward to see China-Israel will be back into full military cooperation one day...maybe you will have something interesting to offer for our J-31 upgrade


Would be nice, but unfortunately no chance. We depend on America too much.



shuttler said:


> how do you know? do you have the parameters?


Dont put attention, he is just trolling.


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## bhedgehog

Anyone helps to translate?


----------



## Devil Soul

China flexes military muscle with J-31 stealth jet
Reuters | Nov 2, 2012,
BEIJING: China's second stealth fighter jet that was unveiled this week is part of a programme to transform China into the top regional military power, an expert on Asian security said on Friday.

The fighter, the J-31, made its maiden flight on Wednesday in the northeast province of Liaoning at a facility of the Shenyang Aircraft Corp which built it, according to Chinese media.

"This is the second entirely new fighter design that's emerged from China in the last two years, which suggests a pretty impressive level of technical development, and puts them ahead, certainly, of all their regional neighbours," said Sam Roggeveen, a security expert with the Lowy Institute in Sydney.

The Chinese military "has been extremely deliberate and well funded and persistent, and it's starting to bear fruit", Roggeveen said.

"What you're now seeing since the early '90s is the slow emergence of a first-class regional military power."

China's Defence Ministry did not respond to a request for comment.

China's previous stealth fighter, the J-20, is a heavier aircraft and believed to be less manoeuvrable than the J-31.

China's military capabilities lag far behind those of the United States, but China is seeking aggressively to boost its strength, including launching its first aircraft carrier - purchased from Ukraine - in September.

The buildup is a worry for neighbours uneasy about China flexing its military muscle, especially in territorial disputes with Japan in the East China Sea and with Vietnam and the Philippines in the South China Sea.

"Just like the US F-22 and F-35 fifth-generation fighters, the J-20 and J-31 will complement each other during future operations," Bai Wei, former deputy editor of the weekly Aviation World, told the Global Times newspaper.

"The J-31 is almost certainly designed with the intention to have the potential of operating on aircraft carriers, judging from its enhanced double-wheel nose landing gear and two big tail wings, which help increase vertical stability," Bai said.

China needs both the heavier J-20 and more nimble J-31 to defend its air space, Bai said.

The J-31 is a mid-sized fighter using Russian-made engines which will later be replaced by Chinese engines, the Global Times reported.

"The big Achilles heel for Chinese aerospace generally, and particularly for both of these two programmes, is engines," Roggeveen, a former analyst for Australian government intelligence and editor of the Lowy Institute's blog LowyInterpreter.org.

"They still rely very much on foreign technology, and their progress on developing domestic high-performance engines for combat aircraft has been frustrating and slow," he said.

While the J-31 and J-20 will add to China's offensive as well as defensive capability, "it will take many, many years" for them to enter service with the air force, Roggeveen said.

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## gambit

shuttler said:


> how do you know? do you have the parameters?


How often do you ask these questions of Chinese claimants?


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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99

China Stealth Fighter Jet J-31 Prototype Tested In Shenyang 

Posted: November 1, 2012

China Stealth Fighter Jet J-31 Prototype Tested In Shenyang [Video]
The China stealth fighter prototype jet flew this past Wednesday in Shenyang according to eyewitnesses. The China stealth fighter is called the &#8220;Falcon Eagle&#8221; and is designated J-31, which is the second stealth fighter after the larger J-20 which flew in 2011. The 10-minute aerial debut of the twin-engine Falcon Eagle was over the Shenyang Aircraft Company airfield in northeastern China. An army of Chinese bloggers have leaked pictures and videos.


For years, China has been purchasing its military hardware from Russia, but the Chinese are trying to change this by rapidly increasing their Defense military spending. &#8220;The technical barriers and development costs for such aircraft are enormous and the U.S. has struggled for years to deliver on their potential,&#8221; the Washington Post explains. Similarly, China&#8217;s development of their own stealth fighter program will takes years, and the earliest projection for the jet entering service is 2018.

Analyst David Axe, writing for Wired.com, calls the flight &#8220;a huge leap forward for China&#8217;s ambitious stealth warplane program.&#8221; But, he added, &#8220;there are still more questions than answers about China&#8217;s second stealth fighter model.&#8221;

Some believe that the J-31 China Stealth Fighter is intended for launching off of China&#8217;s first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, which has been undergoing testing near the port of Dalian since July 2011. But it&#8217;s possible it&#8217;s intended to be primarily land-based. The J-31 appears similar to the fifth generation United States stealth fighters, &#8220;but with a less powerful engine and a lower proportion of sophisticated radar-blocking composite materials.&#8221; These superficial similarities to the United States F-22 and F-35 have fueled speculation that the Chinese based the J-31 Stealth Fighter&#8242;s design on blueprints stolen in 2009 from the servers of at least six American defense contractors.

&#8220;In terms of design it appears the J-31 is inferior to the latest US planes,&#8221; said Chang, head of the Kanwa Information Centre which monitors China&#8217;s military, on Telegraph.co.uk. &#8220;The layout is similar, but the material and quality are inferior. It will take at least seven or eight years before it can be commercially sold.&#8221;

Change believes that the J-31 China stealth fighter test flight was &#8220;timed to coincide with the run-up to China&#8217;s once-in-a-decade leadership transition next month.&#8221; The Shenyang Aircraft Company plans to export the stealth fighter jet to Chinese allies like Pakistan. Chang explains, &#8221;I think the regime is trying to to show off to their colleagues that the Hu Jintao regime achieved a lot for China.&#8221; The handover of power in China will be coming in several years.


Read more at China Stealth Fighter Jet J-31 Prototype Tested In Shenyang [Video]


----------



## Dheeman Rajkhowa

A very unpleasant news, these Chinese tend to give such sort of nasty surprises. So much so I had to join this forum, as one of the "occasional" Indian trolls.
Well, not that I can do anything about the J-31- except taking it seriously.Too much talk going on about how much the Chinese 'copy' and are mere 'imitators'- the US had got a bad shock with the 'zero' the last time they thought about the Japanese and their fighters like that in WW2 and I do feel jealous of China's rapid military progress and the way they meet their deadlines.

And about J-31 export to Pakistan? why not? even the PAF fanboys must be getting bored of their F-16's.Export em right away-with discount of course, considering how cash strapped the Pakistanis are. 
And about the 'nuking New Delhi with the J-31 and photographing it' Rhetoric ,if the next regional annihilation contest actually becomes that bad -we'll sure return the compliments. We Indians may have a big mouth, but we do weigh something in the balance of power in Asia.Period.

I doubt anyone here is from the J-31 design team of engineers ,so no amount of picture sharing is gonna affect its military development process and It's too early to decide the outcome of J-31 vs PAKFA/T-50 vs Rafale debate But big 'Daddy' China has just given PAF it's potential fighter joygasm.

And oh yes, the J-31 does look beautifully designed.


----------



## sohail.ishaque

Oldman1 said:


> *We don't show it, we use it*. Nobody knew about th F117 and B2 for many years. Or the so called Beast of Kandahar or the stealth helo used in Osama's death.



Yes.. on the ladies and children who even don't know what the meanings of the word "war" is... Throw some daizy cutter bombs or send ur drones to kill the innocents.. oh wait, before that send UNO to make sure that your opponent are not having any kind of weapons,.. not even a rifle or grenade... then it'll b very easy to show your power...


----------



## ahfatzia

*Second stealth jet puts China on path to top regional power: Expert*







BEIJING - China's second stealth fighter jet that was unveiled this week is part of a programme to transform China into the top regional military power, an expert on Asian security said on Friday.

The fighter, the J-31, made its maiden flight on Wednesday in the northeast province of Liaoning at a facility of the Shenyang Aircraft Corp which built it, according to Chinese media.

"This is the second entirely new fighter design that's emerged from China in the last two years, which suggests a pretty impressive level of technical development, and puts them ahead, certainly, of all their regional neighbours," said Sam Roggeveen, a security expert with the Lowy Institute in Sydney.

The Chinese military "has been extremely deliberate and well funded and persistent, and it's starting to bear fruit", Roggeveen said.

"What you're now seeing since the early '90s is the slow emergence of a first-class regional military power."

China's Defence Ministry did not respond to a request for comment.

China's previous stealth fighter, the J-20, is a heavier aircraft and believed to be less manoeuvrable than the J-31.

China's military capabilities lag far behind those of the United States, but China is seeking aggressively to boost its strength, including launching its first aircraft carrier - purchased from Ukraine - in September.

The buildup is a worry for neighbours uneasy about China flexing its military muscle, especially in territorial disputes with Japan in the East China Sea and with Vietnam and the Philippines in the South China Sea.

"Just like the US F-22 and F-35 fifth-generation fighters, the J-20 and J-31 will complement each other during future operations," Bai Wei, former deputy editor of the weekly Aviation World, told the Global Times newspaper.

"The J-31 is almost certainly designed with the intention to have the potential of operating on aircraft carriers, judging from its enhanced double-wheel nose landing gear and two big tail wings, which help increase vertical stability," Bai said.

China needs both the heavier J-20 and more nimble J-31 to defend its air space, Bai said.

The J-31 is a mid-sized fighter using Russian-made engines which will later be replaced by Chinese engines, the Global Times reported.

"The big Achilles heel for Chinese aerospace generally, and particularly for both of these two programmes, is engines,"Roggeveen, a former analyst for Australian government intelligence and editor of the Lowy Institute's blog LowyInterpreter.org.

"They still rely very much on foreign technology, and their progress on developing domestic high-performance engines for combat aircraft has been frustrating and slow," he said.

While the J-31 and J-20 will add to China's offensive as well as defensive capability, "it will take many, many years"for them to enter service with the air force, Roggeveen said.

Second stealth jet puts China on path to top regional power: Expert


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Dheeman Rajkhowa said:


> A very unpleasant news, these Chinese tend to give such sort of nasty surprises. So much so I had to join this forum, as one of the "occasional" Indian trolls.
> Well, not that I can do anything about the J-31- except taking it seriously.Too much talk going on about how much the Chinese 'copy' and are mere 'imitators'- the US had got a bad shock with the 'zero' the last time they thought about the Japanese and their fighters like that in WW2 and I do feel jealous of China's rapid military progress and the way they meet their deadlines.
> .



You don't have any reason to be jealous, India military procurement philosphy is not the same as China: India buy, China make, we're walking on different paths. Sure we're envy when seing Rafale, C-17 and others high tech toys you guys got ...in fact we should be the one to be jealous to see how easy India can get these hi tech weapons so easily 

I guess dues to embargo...build J-31 is only way to go, as for those who call it as copy or imitation, that's fine with us as long as this J-31 meet our air force's need.

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## gpit

kafumanpk said:


> Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable engine.



Maybe Indians should keep corrupting &#8230;

1.	1960s: Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable air force. 
2.	1990s: Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable airplane. 
3.	2000s: Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable stealth. 
4.	2010s: Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable engine. 
5.	2020s: Hey, Indians. You do not have to worry about, Chinese do not have a reliable .... 

In the end, China has everything and India doesn&#8217;t have anything.

Are you a CPC covered agent?

------

Back to the topic.

I was just emerging from stone age caused by Sandy the hurricane and compounded with corrupted/inept 1%... amazing to hear this j-31 news.

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## giant panda

Gyrfalcon













ãä¸­åé¹°é¹èãæµ·ä¸éçå¤©é¹ - YouTube
J-31(Gyrfalcon)

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## Viet

Some pics from the J-31. I wonder why China new Stealth fighter has another logo on tail: the eagle?

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## Viet

J-20 has communist star as logo.

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## somebozo

looks very much like F22!

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## karan21

It is indeed flexing muscle now. Time has come now. We have to accept that China has done it. It is too powerfull now. We need to pull up our socks if we have to compete with them.

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## Surenas

somebozo said:


> looks very much like F22!



F-35 you mean?


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## Oldman1

Either that or they are mocking us with the American Eagle that we use as a symbol.

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## Viet

Yes, copy F-22, paste and add some Chinese ingredients, voila J-31





a US F-22 "Raptor"

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## Viet

Discover the difference!





a US F-35 "Lightning II"

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## karan21

Viet said:


> Yes, copy F-22, paste and add some Chinese ingredients, voila J-31
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amerikanischer F-22 "Raptor"



Dont be an idiot. You mean they saw the pics of F22 online and then copied. Lol do you even realize how much expertise it takes to design a plane like that. Designing a plane is a multi step process and mastering all them is what China has achieved now. China right now it showing its maturity in the field. Even if its copied it is an achievement.

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## Viet

Oldman1 said:


> Either that or they are mocking us with the American Eagle that we use as a symbol.




There is a high chance that you both see each other over the sky.

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## Viet

karan21 said:


> Dont be an idiot. You mean they saw the pics of F22 online and then copied. Lol do you even realize how much expertise it takes to design a plane like that. Designing a plane is a multi step process and mastering all them is what China has achieved now. China right now it showing its maturity in the field. Even if its copied it is an achievement.




Relax...I agree with you. That is not necessary bad to copy from others. Respect for the Chinese and congrat to the new fighter jet!

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## djsjs

Viet said:


> Relax...I agree with you. That is not necessary bad to copy from others. Respect for the Chinese and congrat to the new fighter jet!



I rubbed my eyes, and read your post again...wow...incredible!!!

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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Chinese are going fast. Congrats to you guys on this achievement.

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## Viet

djsjs said:


> I rubbed my eyes, and read your post again...wow...incredible!!!




Well, I just hope you don´t send some of these new toys to the SCS or VN.

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## karan21

They are many decades away from induction and moreover China is mostly dependent of foreign tech for acionics and engine so it will take time. Right now these are plane which look like 5th gen planes thats all.

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## TheRafael00000

Surenas said:


> F-35 you mean?



No mate. It's a reverse engineered Sukhoi-23. Got lots of assimilation with Sukhoi.

I thought it is named J-11,as far yahoo concerned.


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## djsjs

Viet said:


> Well, I just hope you don´t send some of these new toys to the SCS or VN.



If they always stop at the airports and do nothing,they would be real toys.they are born to play games with other air forces ,maybe your airforces included.


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## JSCh

Oldman1 said:


> Either that or they are mocking us with the American Eagle that we use as a symbol.


FYI, the two Chinese characters on the right side of the symbol google translate to be "Falcon Eagle". It is actually a special eagle in north east China that is also a totem of the Manchurian people.

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## terranMarine

Viet said:


> Well, I just hope you don´t send some of these new toys to the SCS or VN.



Nothing to worry as these toys don't fly.

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## giant panda

Viet said:


> Some pics from the J-31. Wonder why China new Stealth fighter has another logo on tail: the eagle?



The logo of tail is Gyrfalcon","not eagle".....

Gyrfalcon, also called "Hai Dong Qing" in Chinese

From the ancient time to today, in the northeastern China, the Manchu hunters living in the forest like to raise and train a kind of gyrfalcon, which is called "Hai Dong Qing" in Chinese, to help them catch preys.

J-31's official name is just Gyrfalcon in AVIC











ãä¸­åé¹°é¹èãæµ·ä¸éçå¤©é¹ - YouTube

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## Arsalan

Viet said:


> Yes, copy F-22, paste and add some Chinese ingredients, voila J-31
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a US F-22 "Raptor"



have a look again brother..
Just compare the air intakes of both for instance!!

At least dig up some strong point to defend such baseless comments. That will help you! 



Viet said:


> Discover the difference!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a US F-35 "Lightning II"



Again

have a look again son!
Check tail fin, vertical stabilizers to start with.

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## Viet

Well, I am not aviation expert, just an hobby internet user 
You are right. They are different. But they look like a twin to me.






US F-22






Chinese J-31

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## Broccoli

It's certainly a more reasonable size fighter than the large J-20.


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## Viet

So Raptor vs. Gyrfalcon. Who will win?

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## Juice

Yeah...dem dere Pakistanis bees right they don't look nooothing alike.....


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## hk299792458

New photos from a chinese spotter called Mutha of *Project 310* (_I don't know who started to call it J-31 which is completely wrong and really not serious_)...


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## cirr

More and more &#8220;goodies&#8221; are coming your way from China&#12290;

Some of you guys have plenty of opportunities to accuse China of &#8220;copying&#8221; this and that in the coming years&#12290;

It always pleases me greatly to see some people&#65292;especially the Indians and now including some Americans&#65292; blue with jealousy&#12290;

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## Darth Vader

karan21 said:


> They are many decades away from induction and moreover China is mostly dependent of foreign tech for acionics and engine so it will take time. Right now these are plane which look like 5th gen planes thats all.



LOOK who says that indian is more dependent on foreign tech then any other country ur planes are from russia ur tanks are from russia ur missiles are russian and israel LOkL they just dont look like 5th genrt they work 2 but aHHHHH u r waiting for u prototype which u will get in 2030 cz of delays so u can gess how many of these 5th genrt planes will be in chinese invntry dude just accept ur way behind them so instead of talking rubish out others try and make 1 ur self then say some thing now dont come start abt pak cz jf 17 working badass craft in pak whr u lca still a prototype


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## j20blackdragon



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## fab78

hk299792458 said:


> New photos from a chinese spotter called Mutha of *Project 310* (_I don't know who started to call it J-31 which is completely wrong and really not serious_)...



the photos do not appear hk299792458 !


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## hk299792458

fab78 said:


> the photos do not appear hk299792458 !



I try again...


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## fab78

thank you, it is ok now


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## UKBengali

karan21 said:


> They are many decades away from induction and moreover China is mostly dependent of foreign tech for acionics and engine so it will take time. Right now these are plane which look like 5th gen planes thats all.



Another Indian that wants to put China down just so that he can feel better about India's many failures.

Avionics - Ever heard of indigenous systems on J-10, JF-17, KJ-2000 and now the Type-052D second generation AESA? If Chinese radars were so bad there is no way that Pakistan would have cut the order for the Swedish Erieye AWACS in order to purchase Chinese ZDK-03 AWACS - ample proof that the performance of the 2 systems are comparable. 

Engines - you have a slight point there but China, along with Russia and US, is only the 3rd country in the world that can make 130KN class military turbofans. The successful introduction of the 130KN WS-10A in 2010 means that by the latter half of this decade then it is guaranteed that China at the least will be able to make a 4.5 generation engine if not a full 5th generation engine.

China by 2020 will have an overall military technological level second only to the US. All others Russia, UK and France will be overtaken.

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## Broccoli



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## Water Car Engineer

j20blackdragon said:


>



Takes designs from 2 very good looking birds. It's a good mutt.


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## S_O_C_O_M

New pictures show second Chinese stealth fighter being test flown &#8211; CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

When I look at these J-20 and J-31, my memory flash back to how miserable Chinese fighters in 1980s, we only got J-6 (mig-19) and J-7 (Mig-21) while all our surrounding countries got the best of the best what they could afforded:

Vietname: Mig-23
India: Mig23, Mig-25, Mig-29
Japan: F-4, F-15
Korea: F-16

Now the table is really turning around, I couldn't imagine at that time to see what we're today...when I saw Americain artistc sketch of the ATF (advanced tactical fighter)...I just said to myself...it's a wet dream to see that in Chinese airforce in my life time...but funny that thing happened beyond my expectation, no matter how inferior J-20 or J-31 compare to F-22 and F-35...at least we Chineses have proven ourself that we're not to be left behind and to be denied.

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## Viper0011.

kumar92 said:


> but as far as pakistan is concerned ,it plays role of a know-it-all spectator of a ongoing fude of mistrusts among two giants,hoping one to take on the other.but china and india are too big and responsible to act naiive. as days will pass ,militancy will rise ,leadership will fall,pak will inevitably collapse(no hard feelings),china will lose its universal customer,focus on kasgar(checking infiltration) and though for different reasons ,these two asian giants,despite of their constitutional differences will be working together,because as far as counter-insurgency is concerned india even trains US officials.



This is funny and pretty retarded. So you guys hate China, try to compete against it as if you are superpower and the love of the west. But then when you see yourself lagging behind, you try to portray yourself as 'friend of China', the 'Two Giants' working 'Together' for the common human cause !! In which case, Pakistan becomes the bad guy trying to play both 'the Giants' against each other. Really?? Can you post anything more retarded than this? What a waste of writing, posting and hard drive space! Btw, the two 'GIANTS' exist because of the jobs that we, the American 'outsources' to you the 'Giants' in order to bring your middle class up (and disintegrate ours I guess). American salaries at work, creating 'Two Giants' in Asia!! What a joke!

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## WS-10 Engine

This is the J-31 thread.

So stop talking about Indian issues in here. Go talk Indian crap somewhere else.

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## Arsalan

Viet said:


> Well, I am not aviation expert, just an hobby internet user
> You are right. They are different. But they look like a twin to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US F-22
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese J-31


Apart from both being fifth generation fighters, there are a lot of physical difference as can be seen in the images you posted above.
Tail Fin, Vertical Stabilizers, Air intakes, even the front delta wings!!

Anyway, no point in discussing the copy paste phenomena! there are lot more to do in fifth generation planes, even copying is not a walk in a park let alone some country developing a totally indigenous one! All credit to Chinese engineers!
The latest development in form of a J-20, J-31 combo speaks volume of Chinese progress in aircraft building.

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## hk299792458

New photo of *Project 310*, 310-01, we can clearly see the VTP and the eagle. I think that this photo has been taken from someone working in the 112th factory...






_*Edit : Once again, the nomination of J-31 is completely wrong, please change the title of this thread...*_

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## hk299792458

I heard that the CEO of AVIC, Zuoming ZIN, had visited Shenyang during the maiden flight period of Project 310.

I think this photo had been taken during his visite in the Fast Manufacturing System Center of 112th Factory. Pay attention on the badge in the arms, it's the same eagle insignia as printed on 310-01. 

LIN is the second one from the right.


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## Broccoli

Is that "Project 310" official name? Where does it come from?


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## hk299792458

Broccoli said:


> Is that "Project 310" official name? Where does it come from?



All media "_invent_" the name of "_J-31_" because the number printed on the aircraft is 31001, and so everyone think that it means J-31 aircraft 001, but it is false.

Firstly, on aircraft program can receive the official reference J-xx if and only if it is an officially regconized program, it means only program "ordered" by airforce/navy/amy could receive these J-xx references, which is not the case here with this aircraft program which is a "privately" funded by AVIC.

That's also the reason for why in all J-20 aircrafts you can find the August 1st red star, and on 31001 you can only see an eagle insignia.

Actually, when we read 31001, it means *Project 310 aircraft 01*.

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## Najam Khan

hk299792458 said:


> Firstly, on aircraft program can receive the official reference J-xx if and only if it is an officially regconized program, it means only program "ordered" by airforce/navy/amy could receive these J-xx references, *which is not the case here with this aircraft program which is a "privately" funded by AVIC.*
> 
> That's also the reason for why in all J-20 aircrafts you can find the August 1st red star, and on 31001 you can only see an eagle insignia.
> 
> Actually, when we read 31001, it means *Project 310 aircraft 01*.



I'm hoping AVIC will release some information on this project in Zhuahi Airshow 2012. The photos release of this new stealth aircraft few weeks before this airshow makes perfect sense.


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## mosu

China&#8217;s New Stealth Fighter Hot Among Military Fans
Thousands of military enthusiasts were online on Wednesday morning, hoping to &#8220;witness&#8221; the first test flight of the J-31, which had conducted two high-speed taxiing tests on Tuesday morning and was expected to take off on Wednesday.
Without an official code name, the prototype bears the provisional designation J-31 and has &#8220;31001&#8243; painted on both sides under its cockpit.
An unknown number of enthusiasts on Wednesday morning were stationed outside an airfield of the Shenyang Aircraft Corp, which belongs to the Aviation Industry Corp of China and is a major designer and manufacturer for the Chinese air force. The witnesses published almost all details of the test flight after it began at 10:32 am.
Photos that showed the J-31 in flight and accompanied by two J-11BS fighters were posted on major Chinese military forums.
&#8220;It is amazing! Now China has become the second nation, after the United States, to simultaneously develop two fifth-generation fighters,&#8221; a netizen using the name wenwutuan said on cjdby.net, one of China&#8217;s biggest military websites.
&#8220;Today is absolutely a historic day,&#8221; said another Internet user, dzz2002. &#8220;Though we still have a long way to go before calling China a strong aviation power, we can proudly say that we have made great strides in achieving this goal.&#8221;
According to the accounts of military enthusiasts who claimed to witness the test and their photos, the radar-evading aircraft conducted a 10-minute flight with its landing gear in the lowered position.
Zhai Dequan, deputy secretary-general of the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, said he had not expected that J-31 would make the debut so soon after the maiden flight of the J-20 in January 2011.


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## giant panda




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## TheAnh81

Have to wait more...


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## HeinzG

Does these planes are really 5th Gen. Birds? I mean Americans took 15- 20 years to build F 22 and Russians took almost as same time to field PAK FA. Both These countries are having more than or close to (in Russia's case) history in aviation industry which China lacks. It has only 30 or so years of experience in building sophisticated military aircraft. So is it worth all these hype? 

Please someone knowledgeable enlighten please.


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## qwerrty

j-xx stealth fighter program starts way back since the 90's, not just recently


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## sohail.ishaque

Aeronaut said:


>




Well, i don't know if anyone else has noted this or not but this P310 has similar looks to the JF17 photoshoped stealth versions made and circulated by some fanboys..


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## BlueDot_in_Space

HeinzG said:


> Does these planes are really 5th Gen. Birds? I mean Americans took 15- 20 years to build F 22 and Russians took almost as same time to field PAK FA. Both These countries are having more than or close to (in Russia's case) history in aviation industry which China lacks. It has only 30 or so years of experience in building sophisticated military aircraft. So is it worth all these hype?
> 
> Please someone knowledgeable enlighten please.



Just by looks a plane does not become 5th gen. T50, J20 and J31 are self-proclaimed 5th gen prototypes with LO features in their airframe. Alot of work needs to be done to develop them to the level of a true 5th gen fighter with AESA, HIgh thrust engine, thrust vectoring, super cruise, avionics integration, situational awareness etc. We will have to wait and see when and how much T50, J20 and J31 evolve to that level. But in todays world, its the superficial aspect that sells more and creates hype, not the thing that goes inside, no one seems to care about that.

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## hk299792458

For anyone who would like to learn more about the background and the development history of this Project 310, and to avoid to have any unreasonable and uncorrect arguments trolling out from everywhere, I strongly suggest one to buy and to read the official biography of the actual chief engineer of the Institut 601 from Shenyang, who is believed to be in charge, or had at least leaded for a period, the development of this project.

I bought it a few months ago but don't have time to finish.  For example in chapter 6 we can read that the stealth technologies research in Shenyang has been started since 1993, in chapter 7 we can see the development of TVC and the selection of test bed between Su-27CK and J-10. In a chapter that I don't remember the pages we could see the history on how Shenyang had failed against Chengdu in the 5G aircraft program (_that brings to J-20_).

A very very good official source that I suggest to all, at least it's much more better than all pretended "information" websites with all f**king wrong copied/pasted and imaginative informations...






_Edit : Only one inconvenience, the price of shipment from China to Europe is even higher than the price of the book itself... Damn_

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## Obambam




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## cirr

&#8220;310&#8221; taking part in this year's Zhuhai Air Show&#65306;

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## Kompromat

Air superiority version looks far better.

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## 帅的一匹

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2012-11-08/209588_2260843.htm
Export version of J31 model in Zhu hai Air show.

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## Broccoli



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## krash

wanglaokan said:


> http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2012-11-08/209588_2260843.htm
> Export version of J31 model in Zhu hai Air show.



Notice the one piece canopy.







*Credit wanglaokan.*

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## Oldman1




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## Obambam

krash said:


> Notice the one piece canopy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Credit wanglaokan.*



The end product will most likely end up with a one piece canopy. It is meant to be a stealth fighter after all.


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## applesauce

Obambam said:


> The end product will most likely end up with a one piece canopy. It is meant to be a stealth fighter after all.



not necessarily, if its for aircraft carriers then its advisable to have a stronger canopy and the cheapest way to do that is two-piece, of course they could spend more money and do something like the f-35 which is one-piece with a brace under the canopy.

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## krash

Obambam said:


> The end product will most likely end up with a one piece canopy. It is meant to be a stealth fighter after all.



Yup and I just couldn't help but remember the time when the first pictures came out followed by Indians pointing out the lack of a one piece canopy. That is when *cirr* said that this bird will soon have a one piece canopy.

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## cirr

krash said:


> Yup and I just couldn't help but remember the time when the first pictures came out followed by Indians pointing out the lack of a one piece canopy. That is when *cirr* said that this bird will soon have a one piece canopy.



Our Pakistani brothers might like to acquire a few of these for their Thunders&#65306;






Keywords&#65306;400&#65292;standoff&#65292;supersonic&#12290;

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## Obambam

applesauce said:


> not necessarily, if its for aircraft carriers then its advisable to have a stronger canopy and the cheapest way to do that is two-piece, of course they could spend more money and do something *like the f-35 which is one-piece with a brace under the canopy.*



I'm pretty sure the wiser heads have it all figured out by now and have already laid down a road map for the f-31. Right now it is going through the initial test phase, as it progresses, we will see 02, 03 etc get introduced, each will come with slight modifications to speed up the test in a similar fashion to the J-20. My guess that they are not doing a one piece canopy now is mostly cost related. The technology and expertise are already there for when they need it.


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## WS-10 Engine

krash said:


> Yup and I just couldn't help but remember the time when the first pictures came out followed by Indians pointing out the lack of a one piece canopy. That is when *cirr* said that this bird will soon have a one piece canopy.



Indians are clueless at everything.


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## 帅的一匹

I've got to say i really love the way China is going in the development of weapons, steady and fast. Never puff anything but just buckle down hardworking. DRDO and HAL should definitely learn some from China.


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## hk299792458

Some photos from Zhuhai Air Show 2012, installation of the stands is always on going...




































Is it possible to create a sticky thread dedicated for Zhuhai Air Show 2012, so that everyone can post some videos and photos taken from the exhibition?

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## April.lyrics

well,even farnborough air show dont have a sticky thread.maybe a normal one is ok enough.


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## qwerrty

i hopethey'll release some rough specs of radar and other electronic suites, not just display model or video.


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## Agent_47




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## Abingdonboy

Guys does anyone know what HMDS will be used on the J-31/20? A good HMDS is a must for any wannabe 5TH gen fighter.


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## Kompromat

Agent_47 said:


>



B*TT hurt Taiwanese news, what else?

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## cirr

11.11&#65292; PLAAF Day&#65306;

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## lakdi

so you think this project started from just recent years?
are you kidding...
almost all strong military powers follow the same pattern "deploy one generation, develop the next gen, forecast the next next gen"

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

lakdi said:


> so you think this project started from just recent years?
> are you kidding...
> almost all strong military powers follow the same pattern "deploy one generation, develop the next gen, forecast the next next gen"



you forgot to add mid-life upgrate such as J-10b and J16s to fill the transition gap until next gen fighter is ready


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## Esc8781



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## Nan Yang

Agent_47 said:


>





Aeronaut said:


> B*TT hurt Taiwanese news, what else?



NTDTV = FaLun Gong TV funded by US congress.
Nobody watch or read their free TV or free newspaper.


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## applesauce

Nan Yang said:


> NTDTV = FaLun Gong TV funded by US congress.
> Nobody watch or read their free TV or free newspaper.



credibility of source has never stopped Indians when discrediting china why would they start now?

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## SBD-3

This week J-31 was on JDW's feature story.


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## HAIDER

*While the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) have ostensibly developed the JF-17 jointly, analysts say most of the development was done by CAC
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi Nov 13, 2012, 00:07 IST*

Two weeks after Chinas new J-31 stealth fighter made its debut flight on October 31, it will be officially acknowledged with a mock-up of the aircraft in Airshow China, the Beijing-endorsed air show that opens in Zhuhai, China, on Tuesday. With Chinas official media reporting the J-31 will be sold to abroad customers, Indian analysts say the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) might be one of the earliest customers of the fighter aircraft.

The English-language newspaper Global Times, owned by the Communist Party of China (CPC), cites Bai Wei, former editor of the Aviation World Monthly, as saying, Currently, the only fifth generation fighter available for sale is the F-35 by the US. The J-31 will offer an alternative for non-traditional allies of the US. 

The leakage of photos of the J-31 debut flight, which analysts regard as deliberate, had triggered speculation that the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) had built that aircraft for the international market, creating a rival for Lockheed Martins long-delayed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Aviation experts assess the J-31 would also need 7-10 years to enter operational service.

Indian analysts, including Pushpindar Singh of the Society for Aerospace Studies, point out the PAFs preference for Chinese fighter aircraft make it likely that it would acquire the J-31 as soon as the fighter is ready for operational service. Already, the backbone of the PAF is made up of Chinese fighters like the JF-17 Thunder, the J-10 and the F-7. It is close to certain that Pakistan would also opt for at least two squadrons of the J-31, given that the US is unlikely to allow it into the F-35 partnership, says Pushpindar Singh.

Indian analysts believe the PAF will emerge as a 23-squadron air force by 2020, with its backbone consisting of 12-13 squadrons of the JF-17 light fighter.

While the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) have ostensibly developed the JF-17 jointly, analysts believe that most of the development was done by CAC. The PAF already operates four squadrons of the JF-17, which is part-built in Pakistan and China.

In 2020, the PAF would also have four squadrons of Lockheed Martin F-16s, two squadrons of the J-10 from CAC, and three squadrons of older Chinese F-7TGs.

The close relationship between the PLAAF and the PAF is evident from the presence at the Zhuhai Air Show of three PAF JF-17 fighters, which will be flying displays during the show.

Meanwhile, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is currently down to 34 squadrons, with which it must defend both the Pakistan and China borders. By 2017, the 14 IAF squadrons that fly MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters would also have been disbanded, and replaced by just four new squadrons of Sukhoi-30MKI fighters.

With the procurement of the Dassault Rafale fighter also running late, the IAF will be facing what can only be described as a crisis in 2017, says Pushpindar Singh.

Airshow China will also feature, for the first time ever, Chinas new WZ-10 attack helicopter, which will be capable of flying anti-tank and anti-aircraft missions, fielding a payload of rockets, missiles and a rapid-fire cannon.

Like in every China-built fighter aircraft, the five-tonne helicopter will be powered by a foreign engine.

The air show at Zhuhai will also feature a new Chinese long-range ground-to-air missile called the FD-2000.

Chinese J-31 stealth fighter for global market


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## twocents

Aeronaut said:


> B*TT hurt Taiwanese news, what else?



It is not Taiwanese per se, but a TV version of the Epoch Times. It calls itself a non-profit broadcaster without ever revealing its source(s) of funding. Needless to say, all China bashers will really enjoy its programs.

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## ChineseTiger1986

> Like in every China-built fighter aircraft, the five-tonne helicopter will be powered by a foreign engine.



Oh boy, those Indians are really concerned about China's domestic engines.

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## 1ndy

This surely won't be 15 million a piece.


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## doidoi2

Epoch Times is run by some members of the pro-green party which advertise independence from China, but receive part of its funding through NGOs (from the usual suspects).

Their news feature typical propaganda.

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## Donatello

Oldman1 said:


>



Why are hardpoints under the wing and not concealed?


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## krash

hasnain0099 said:


> This week J-31 was on JDW's feature story.



Please delete it.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/218151-copyrights-publishers.html



Donatello said:


> Why are hardpoints under the wing and not concealed?



Its optional. Exactly like on the F-35:

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## nwmalik

1ndy said:


> This surely won't be 15 million a piece.



but probably still cheaper than Rafael


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## Chanakyaa

nwmalik said:


> but probably still cheaper than Rafael



_Rafael_ is an Iraeli Company
*Rafale* is THE Fighter Jet

Besides, how r the two co related ?


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## Mav3rick

XiNiX said:


> _Rafael_ is an Iraeli Company
> *Rafale* is THE Fighter Jet
> 
> Besides, how r the two co related ?



By the logic in the post that nwmalik responded to. I thought that was quite clear.


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## Doctor Death

10 years that's along way off.
BTW yesterday in a seminar IAF chief told last week in a seminar in Delhi that IAF strength will be 34 Squadron(but more modern) and by 2020 it will have 38 Squadrons.


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## Najam Khan

krash said:


> Please delete it.
> 
> Its optional. Exactly like on the F-35:



When J-20 was unveiled, military experts considered it a first step by China in development of 5th Gen stealth fighter. They know that cyber attacks on Pentagon/LM and other such organizations have made them lose secret and vital information. But still there were not sure how much damage has been done and how much Chinese have learnt and experimented on Stealth project (which had been undergoing research since 2005/6).

When J-31 was unveiled on 31st Oct, it shook the West especially U.S and its allies badly. Creating a copy of such sophisticate technology is never easy. They know if China make it to the market before or even +3 years after F-35 than US will lose everything. China will offer a low-cost but hard hitting Stealth fighter to the world in next 5-10 years; countries planning to buy F35 will do make-shift changes or procure 4th Gen fighters as stop gap and will eventually buy J-31. So a BIG market will be lost, the decades of US research in Stealth design and years of hardwork will be lost IF China steps in this game....which it has; reports/press statements at Zhuhai 2012 are some examples.

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## ghauri05

If PAF can get it it will be awesome. Atleast we will have anything called"Stealth" in our fleet


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## Mig-35

ghauri05 said:


> If PAF can get it it will be awesome. *Atleast we will have anything called"Stealth" in our fleet*



Why would you spent so much just to call something stealth.. just wright STEALTH on JF-17 and call STEALTH

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## ghauri05

Mig-35 said:


> Why would you spent so much just to call something stealth.. just wright STEALTH on JF-17 and call STEALTH


Bcoz we dont want some BD quality level stuff. we want something real

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## Mig-35

ghauri05 said:


> Bcoz we dont want some BD quality level stuff. we want something real



Nooo!! You did not say that...nooo... You mean JF-17 your pride is of the same BD poor level... Cant believe myself reading this.... Your Imran Khan would be really mad at u for saying this in Public...


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## ghauri05

I have serious doubts about your understanding. I am talking about stealth. so far there is no confirmed news about jf-17 to be stealth. even blk2 has nothing stealth in it, other parameter have definitely improved. so jf-17 has a lot of potential but it is not stealth right now

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## SamranAli

Mig-35 said:


> Why would you spent so much just to call something stealth.. just wright STEALTH on JF-17 and call STEALTH



Competing with indians in trolling????

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## Sanchez

It's known in the Chinese forums that PAF is considering to co-develop a single engine based stealth fighter with CAC. J-31 might be the second option.

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## Broccoli




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## jahangeer yousaf

SamranAli said:


> Competing with indians in trolling????



i bet ... for sure .......... even better in trolling than indian look at the excuse they made when SHE was invited to visit pakistan...

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## SamranAli

jahangeer yousaf said:


> i bet ... for sure .......... even better in trolling than indian look at the excuse they made when SHE was invited to visit pakistan...



Indian iofluence...

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## Cherokee

Is this J-31 or some other Fighter ??


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## krash

Trolla-Lala said:


> Is this J-31 or some other Fighter ??



Guess whats coming next...."OMG OMG OMG! I knew it! the pictures of J-31s flight were actually psed when it was hanging from this crane!"


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## graphican

krash said:


> Guess whats coming next...."OMG OMG OMG! I knew it! the pictures of J-31s flight were actually psed when it was hanging from this crane!"





Somebody in the forum had mentioned that Pakistan would be looking to get twin engine jets around 2019. If this was true, J-31 might be the candidate for that. But guys before J-XX was revealed, didn't everybody talk about China's 5th Gen to be based on J-10 as its foundation platform? There were several images (even though CGs) moving around on the forum. Now question is what has happened to that Project? Pakistan getting J-10Bs and then J-10 based stealth would make more sense instead of going for J-31 which is completely different platform. OR NOT?


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## Kompromat

Trolla-Lala said:


> Is this J-31 or some other Fighter ??



Mockup being taken for RCS testing perhaps.

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## Gessler

Aeronaut said:


> Mockup being taken for RCS testing perhaps.



I've heard it can carry only 4 AAMs in internal bays. Isn't that too low? I thought only f-35 had
this problem. PAK-FA carries 8 AAMs in internal bays For any type of intense warfighting along
the Indo-Pak border, it would be forced to carry external weapons which will terribly increase its RCS
with all that external load.

In the end PAKFA with 8 weapons in internal bays will turn out stealthier in actual combat than
J-31 carrying external weapons. And btw, it seems J-31 has 2 x RD-93/33 engines, won't its TWR
be too low with those? No supercruising either and no IRST.

With no IRST, J-31 will always have to keep its radar active to look for threats. its radar signals
will give away its position to PAKFA's advanced RWRs even before J-31 gets to see PAKFA in radar.

PAKFA has wing-mounted L-band air surveillance radars with powerful jamming capabilities and
the main AESA N-050 too to attempt to jam the J-31 radar, blinding it. PAKFA can detect J-31
completely passively with new long-range IRSTs.

Even in radar spectrum J-31 cannot escape PAKFA cuz PAKFA has 4 radars installed in 1) nose cone,
2) 3) wing-mounted 4) tail cone. providing almost 360-degree radar coverage. How will J-31 detect
a PAKFA with passive IRST sneaking up from behind at J-31's engine heat signature??





And in a dogfight PAKFA can manoeuver the hell out of J-31. New missiles like RVV-SD and RVV-MD
to be installed on both Super Sukhoi and FGFA can take out targets in off-boresight manoevering at 12g.

I'd say PAF would be making a foolish decision if it buys J-31, this plane looks like a waste of money
in comparison to FGFA/PAKFA. It seems any Super Sukhoi will make mince meat out of J-31, Rafale
will find it uber-easy to play around with this new-build mig-29 before killing it.

You're better off with a stealthy variant of JF-17 or J-10...and btw,
any new progress of FC-20 deal? Ive been hearing about this FC-20 since last 3 years or more.


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## Icewolf

^^ PAK-FA is not even stealth, the Russians used Indians for money... Look at the backside of PAK-FA hahahaha...


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## Gessler

Icewolf said:


> ^^ PAK-FA is not even stealth, the Russians used Indians for money... Look at the backside of PAK-FA hahahaha...



same PAKFA will be operated by RusAF too. The Indian variant will be stealthier infact.

have you found any argument yet?

and yeah - 

hahaha, i can't rofl anymore cuz forum restricts only 8 smilies.


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## Gessler

nwmalik said:


> but probably still cheaper than Rafael



Have you heard the old saying "you get for what you pay"

??



krash said:


> Guess whats coming next...."OMG OMG OMG! I knew it! the pictures of J-31s flight were actually psed when it was hanging from this crane!"



could be.

the chinese fanboys can do anything


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## Icewolf

gessler said:


> same PAKFA will be operated by RusAF too. The Indian variant will be stealthier infact.
> 
> have you found any argument yet?
> 
> and yeah -
> 
> hahaha, i can't rofl anymore cuz forum restricts only 8 smilies.



haha... The Russians will not be using PAK-FA for their stealth fighter... They know exactly the PAK-FA's low quality... haha..

Dude just look at the backside of PAK-FA!! You call that a 5th gen!   And look at the rounded engines hahaha... And look at the tail radar hehehe....


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## danger007

Icewolf said:


> haha... The Russians will not be using PAK-FA for their stealth fighter... They know exactly the PAK-FA's low quality... haha..
> 
> Dude just look at the backside of PAK-FA!! You call that a 5th gen!   And look at the rounded engines hahaha... And look at the tail radar hehehe....




when you import radars from chinese... until now i thought only chinese got radars in eyes... lol


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## Gessler

Icewolf said:


> haha... The Russians will not be using PAK-FA for their stealth fighter... They know exactly the PAK-FA's low quality... haha..
> 
> Dude just look at the backside of PAK-FA!! You call that a 5th gen!   And look at the rounded engines hahaha... And look at the tail radar hehehe....



J-20 and J-31 have rounded engines too imbecile. When you can't put up an argument, leave the
thread instead of trolling to save your face.

you are the most low-quality cheap troll in the forum i've ever seen. look at your own backside in the
mirror and pak-fa will look like a beauty


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## Icewolf

gessler said:


> J-20 and J-31 have rounded engines too imbecile. When you can't put up an argument, leave the
> thread instead of trolling to save your face.
> 
> you are the most low-quality cheap troll in the forum i've ever seen. look at your own backside in the
> mirror and pak-fa will look like a beauty



Telling me I cant carry on a argument!! First look at your post, son, and tell me if there was any real value to it


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## Rajput_Pakistani

gessler said:


> I've heard it can carry only 4 AAMs in internal bays. Isn't that too low? I thought only f-35 had
> this problem. PAK-FA carries 8 AAMs in internal bays For any type of intense warfighting along
> the Indo-Pak border, it would be forced to carry external weapons which will terribly increase its RCS
> with all that external load.
> 
> In the end PAKFA with 8 weapons in internal bays will turn out stealthier in actual combat than
> J-31 carrying external weapons. And btw, it seems J-31 has 2 x RD-93/33 engines, won't its TWR
> be too low with those? No supercruising either and no IRST.
> 
> With no IRST, J-31 will always have to keep its radar active to look for threats. its radar signals
> will give away its position to PAKFA's advanced RWRs even before J-31 gets to see PAKFA in radar.
> 
> PAKFA has wing-mounted L-band air surveillance radars with powerful jamming capabilities and
> the main AESA N-050 too to attempt to jam the J-31 radar, blinding it. PAKFA can detect J-31
> completely passively with new long-range IRSTs.
> 
> Even in radar spectrum J-31 cannot escape PAKFA cuz PAKFA has 4 radars installed in 1) nose cone,
> 2) 3) wing-mounted 4) tail cone. providing almost 360-degree radar coverage. How will J-31 detect
> a PAKFA with passive IRST sneaking up from behind at J-31's engine heat signature??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And in a dogfight PAKFA can manoeuver the hell out of J-31. New missiles like RVV-SD and RVV-MD
> to be installed on both Super Sukhoi and FGFA can take out targets in off-boresight manoevering at 12g.
> 
> I'd say PAF would be making a foolish decision if it buys J-31, this plane looks like a waste of money
> in comparison to FGFA/PAKFA. It seems any Super Sukhoi will make mince meat out of J-31, Rafale
> will find it uber-easy to play around with this new-build mig-29 before killing it.
> 
> You're better off with a stealthy variant of JF-17 or J-10...and btw,
> any new progress of FC-20 deal? Ive been hearing about this FC-20 since last 3 years or more.



Are you some kind of fortune-teller or what?
Both these planes you mentioned are still in development phase, and you are comparing there specs as they are already operational.

Wait for sometime, when actual operational bird come out. Then for sure, you can beat the hell out of J-31 (only in bollywood)..
And why Indians always think that Chinese or Pakistanis are stupid enough to give away all info about the weapons actual potential to you???

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## Gessler

Icewolf said:


> Telling me I cant carry on a argument!! First look at your post, son, and tell me if there was any real value to it



Certainly more value than your's. Otherwise low quality stuff is easily countered by trolls like you.

you failed to argue with points of J-31 v/s PAKFA and starting trolling so to settle your revving heat in
sides of your neck after my post #21.

I can sense you can-not argue with me on J-31 v/s PAKFA, hence I advise you to leave the thread
and allow more intelligent members to put up some REAL arguments. you better get out of the
underside of my bed cuz its gonna rock a lot nowcuz my gf has come over.



Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Are you some kind of fortune-teller or what?
> Both these planes you mentioned are still in development phase, and you are comparing there specs as they are already operational.
> 
> Wait for sometime, when actual operational bird come out. Then for sure, you can beat the hell out of J-31 (only in bollywood)..
> And why Indians always think that Chinese or Pakistanis are stupid enough to give away all info about the weapons actual potential to you???



maybe when b-wood starts making a movie based on the Tom Clancy's HAWX video game...

PAKFA is simply too strong to wring my good friend.


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## Gessler

Does PLAAF yet have a thrust-vectoring aircraft with Electronically Scanned Array radar in operational service??


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## Icewolf

gessler said:


> Certainly more value than your's. Otherwise low quality stuff is easily countered by trolls like you.
> 
> you failed to argue with points of J-31 v/s PAKFA and starting trolling so to settle your revving heat in
> sides of your neck after my post #21.
> 
> I can sense you can-not argue with me on J-31 v/s PAKFA, hence I advise you to leave the thread
> and allow more intelligent members to put up some REAL arguments. you better get out of the
> underside of my bed cuz its gonna rock a lot nowcuz my gf has come over.



You're trying to show PAK-FA as some extraordinary fighter when its not even half of that....Thats why I corrected you... Too much fanboyism is not good.

And Im pretty sure you're a cash register clerk...

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## Gessler

Icewolf said:


> You're trying to show PAK-FA as some extraordinary fighter when its not even half of that....Thats why I corrected you... Too much fanboyism is not good.
> 
> And Im pretty sure you're a cash register clerk...



see? again trolling instead of argueing.

and lemme tell you that 1 PAKFA can destroy the entire PAF in a single 7-hour sortie with a never-ending
supply of R77s and R73s...well now *thats *fanboyism. Im a fanboy with some quality in posts.

I argued some real points but all your 3700+ posts dont weigh as much as my 1 post #27. or so i think.

no im not a clerk...but what are you still doing under my bed? ya better stop ridiculous replies,
just post some credible argument against the points ive raised or just...


----------



## S10

HAIDER said:


> Like in every China-built fighter aircraft, the five-tonne helicopter will be powered by a foreign engine.
> Chinese J-31 stealth fighter for global market


J-10B, J-11B, J-15 and J-16 are not Chinese built aircrafts? That's news to me.



HAIDER said:


> Like in every China-built fighter aircraft, the five-tonne helicopter will be powered by a foreign engine.
> Chinese J-31 stealth fighter for global market


J-10B, J-11B, J-15 and J-16 are not Chinese built aircrafts? That's news to me.


----------



## Viper0011.

gessler said:


> I've heard it can carry only 4 AAMs in internal bays. Isn't that too low? I thought only f-35 had
> this problem. PAK-FA carries 8 AAMs in internal bays. In the end PAKFA with 8 weapons in internal bays will turn out stealthier in actual combat than J-31 carrying external weapons. And btw, it seems J-31 has 2 x RD-93/33 engines, won't its TWR
> be too low with those? No supercruising either and no IRST.
> 
> And in a dogfight PAKFA can manoeuver the hell out of J-31. New missiles like RVV-SD and RVV-MD
> to be installed on both Super Sukhoi and FGFA can take out targets in off-boresight manoevering at 12g.
> 
> I'd say PAF would be making a foolish decision if it buys J-31, this plane looks like a waste of money
> in comparison to FGFA/PAKFA. It seems any Super Sukhoi will make mince meat out of J-31, Rafale
> will find it uber-easy to play around with this new-build mig-29 before killing it.
> 
> You're better off with a stealthy variant of JF-17 or J-10...and btw,
> any new progress of FC-20 deal? Ive been hearing about this FC-20 since last 3 years or more.




I honestly don't know how to respond to your post (and many of your countrymen's posts for instance). You guys put bullshitt beyond shame. Post like these remind me what you guys did to the American economy and jobs!! 

Half of your post if about a mighty jet fighter that barely gotten off the paper into a first proof of concept. Yet, you are claiming how superior PakFa and FgFa may be??? Do you want to wait till they become operational so you can compare apples to apples?
Also, the J-20, J-31 are using tech that's in American stealth fighters (Chinese gained access to American stealth technologies, it was in news so you should know about it). So for better or worse, the Chinese may have a competitive advantage over anyone else besides the US. However, how well they can copy...is another question. But their industry is definitely at the same level as the Russians is at this second (minus the jet propulsion / engines technologies). So on paper and per specs, the J-20 and J-31 should be a direct match to the F-22 and F-35 (I'd imagine 75% match at the most, still not bad for the Chinese defense industry who was lagging behind crazy). So my advise to you is, instead of coming off as a total idiot, try to post some sense or do rational comparisons. At least something from the gibberish written in your post should makes sense.


----------



## 帅的一匹

China has made huge progress regarding indeginous engine, who can tell me what is the engine type packed on J20? Definitely not WS-10A, not AF-31. What is it?



gessler said:


> see? again trolling instead of argueing.
> 
> and lemme tell you that 1 PAKFA can destroy the entire PAF in a single 7-hour sortie with a never-ending
> supply of R77s and R73s...well now *thats *fanboyism. Im a fanboy with some quality in posts.
> 
> I argued some real points but all your 3700+ posts dont weigh as much as my 1 post #27. or so i think.
> 
> no im not a clerk...but what are you still doing under my bed? ya better stop ridiculous replies,
> just post some credible argument against the points ive raised or just...


IAF will be snub by PLAAF and PAF, J20 will annhailate PAKFA anytime at anywhere, These two types not in the same class.

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## 帅的一匹

gessler said:


> see? again trolling instead of argueing.
> 
> and lemme tell you that 1 PAKFA can destroy the entire PAF in a single 7-hour sortie with *a never-ending
> supply of R77s and R73s*...well now *thats *fanboyism. Im a fanboy with some quality in posts.
> 
> I argued some real points but all your 3700+ posts dont weigh as much as my 1 post #27. or so i think.
> 
> no im not a clerk...but what are you still doing under my bed? ya better stop ridiculous replies,
> just post some credible argument against the points ive raised or just...


Never ending supply is only exist in the fancy story.......At time of war, India weapon supply from abroad won't chase up the speed of consumption, finally leads to collapse. I could figure this out only by a$$.



S10 said:


> J-10B, J-11B, J-15 and J-16 are not Chinese built aircrafts? That's news to me.
> 
> 
> J-10B, J-11B, J-15 and J-16 are not Chinese built aircrafts? That's news to me.


It's just sour grape mentality showing their fear, just put him on your ignore list.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Icewolf said:


> You're trying to show PAK-FA as some extraordinary fighter when its not even half of that....Thats why I corrected you... Too much fanboyism is not good.
> 
> And Im pretty sure you're a cash register clerk...


My brother, PAKFA is the last straw that Indian could grasp to save their sorry A$$. Unfortunately, that straw is not that secure as they think.


----------



## 帅的一匹

gessler said:


> see? again trolling instead of argueing.
> 
> and lemme tell you that *1 PAKFA can destroy the entire PAF in a single 7-hour sortie* with a never-ending
> supply of R77s and R73s...well now *thats *fanboyism. Im a fanboy with some quality in posts.
> 
> I argued some real points but all your 3700+ posts dont weigh as much as my 1 post #27. or so i think.
> 
> no im not a clerk...but what are you still doing under my bed? ya better stop ridiculous replies,
> just post some credible argument against the points ive raised or just...


The bold part is called trolling, PAKFA sold to India is just a waterdown version of So called Russian 5 gen rip-off demonstrator. Just dont bet too much stake on it, otherwise you will fall and get a nasty knock.

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## Kompromat

Its too early to say what exact internal loadout would be.


----------



## wakapdf

We dont need J31! We need to focus on coming out with JF17 block 2 and then hopefully Block 3 with a few stealth features. That would be the most appropriate action for our air force. Running for J31 is just wishful thinking. We are better off thinking about F-35.


----------



## Sanchez

orangzaib said:


> I honestly don't know how to respond to your post (and many of your countrymen's posts for instance). You guys put bullshitt beyond shame. Post like these remind me what you guys did to the American economy and jobs!!
> 
> Half of your post if about a mighty jet fighter that barely gotten off the paper into a first proof of concept. Yet, you are claiming how superior PakFa and FgFa may be??? Do you want to wait till they become operational so you can compare apples to apples?
> Also, the J-20, J-31 are using tech that's in American stealth fighters (Chinese gained access to American stealth technologies, it was in news so you should know about it). So for better or worse, the Chinese may have a competitive advantage over anyone else besides the US. However, how well they can copy...is another question. But their industry is definitely at the same level as the Russians is at this second (minus the jet propulsion / engines technologies). So on paper and per specs, the J-20 and J-31 should be a direct match to the F-22 and F-35 (I'd imagine 75% match at the most, still not bad for the Chinese defense industry who was lagging behind crazy). So my advise to you is, instead of coming off as a total idiot, try to post some sense or do rational comparisons. At least something from the gibberish written in your post should makes sense.



Chinese gained access to American stealth technologies? Don't write the craps that you have no clue about! J-31 may have some similarity in shape with whatever you mentioned but those are not secrets.

You lazy and fat Americans should never complain others robbing your jobs. You deserve it.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Icewolf said:


> You're trying to show PAK-FA as some extraordinary fighter when its not even half of that....Thats why I corrected you... Too much fanboyism is not good.
> 
> And Im pretty sure you're a cash register clerk...


That's rich coming from you guys! "Too much fanboyism"!! What and jumping up and down at the mere thought of the J-31 for the PAF isn't? Not a single source has said the PAF will get 5th gen fighters for some time, the J-31/20 still have to prove they are anything more than cool looking shells, and they have just started their testing/devlopment programs they are atleast a decade away from being anywhere near production ready.


----------



## Abingdonboy

wanglaokan said:


> The bold part is called trolling, PAKFA sold to India is just a waterdown version of So called Russian 5 gen rip-off demonstrator. Just dont bet too much stake on it, otherwise you will fall and get a nasty knock.



Nonsesne- the FGFA (Indian version of the PAK-FA) will be more advanced than the Russian standard PAK-FA. I don't know where you are getting your facts from but you should do some basic research before you start spouting nonsense. And how is the PAK-FA a rip-off??



wanglaokan said:


> China has made huge progress regarding indeginous engine, who can tell me what is the engine type packed on J20? Definitely not WS-10A, not AF-31. What is it?
> 
> 
> IAF will be snub by PLAAF and PAF, J20 will annhailate PAKFA anytime at anywhere, These two types not in the same class.


How are the J-20 and PAK-FA in different classes? And I genuinly belive the IAF Rafales will be a handful for the J20/31 let alone a the PROPER 5th gen fighters like PAF-FA/F-22.



wanglaokan said:


> My brother, PAKFA is the last straw that Indian could grasp to save their sorry A$$. Unfortunately, that straw is not that secure as they think.



And what does that mean oh great Oracle? You seem to think you can see into the future-what does your magical eye foresee??


----------



## Abingdonboy

The Chinese aerospace industery is just not up to the same level as the West and Russia. Now the J-20/31 might look all nice and stealthy but what really gives a 5th gen fighter an edge is avionics,sensor fusion,EW suite,engines and weapons package. China is dearly lacking in all these areas. Russia and the West are far,FAR ahead in all these areas so the idea of a Su-35 purchase for China would be to buy one of the most capable fighters on the market right now to strip down and reverse engineer. The Su-35 would come with some good sensors and a very good engine. Now others like say the French, are ahead of Russia in the avionics/sensor arena eg the SPECTRA suite is the most capable such system on the planet by all accounts, but the French just aren't willing to sell such equipment to the Chinese nor are most of the world due to China's complete disregard of IP laws. As such China is turning to Russia. The fact is China can't play catch up in complete isolation in the span of jusrt over a decade so it does need outside help but this help is not forthcoming. Not to mention that whilst Russia has some great tech in some areas it too is lacking notably avionics and sensors-this is why India has gone with Western (Israeli/French) tech on their MKIs not to mention Indian tech and will do so even on the 5th gen fighters from Russia. But Russia is the only viable player out their even considering sales to China. As such China has dug itself into quite a whole and this is where India actually stands in a better position- yes India is currently lagging in indigenous production of defence equipment but the thing is that it is still freinds with everyone and all the major defence companies in the world are entering into JVs left right and centre not to mention TOT is coming in for almost every major defence purchases these days. India is going to be able to take expertise from those on the cutting edge whilst China continues to struggle in isolation. It is for this exact reason that China is going to have an incredibly tough time getting a grip on ACC operations and my guess is it is going to lose A LOT of lives and machines unfortunately. What they are attempting to do has never been done before ie get a handle on the basics of ACC operations with supersonic high-performance jets. All other ACC powers started out with props and sub-sonic a/c. 


How does anyone really think China has surpassed the standards of the West/Russia wrt 5th gen tech with only a fraction of the time and funds invested in such a venture?? It just isn't possible! If the J-20/31 were credible threats the US would be going crazy but they have barely batted an eyelid, why? Because almost any aviation expert worth their salt agrees that what we see flying are nothing but flying "shells". There is simply no way the Chinese have developed the tech to rival the West or Russia in this arena-NO WAY. Is it really logical to think that one of the greatest aviation companies in the world (Lockheed Martin) working with some of the leading defence companies in the world (BAE systems,Northrup Grunmen, Raytheon etc) would be out done in a fraction of the time by the Chinese who have barely even got a grasp on building a 4th gen fighter??! The simple truth is China has a long and hard road in front of it and the fact it is working in isolation and foregoing R&D for industrial espionage means the task is mammoth. The Chinese are at least 15 years (probably more) away from fielding any fighter that can even be compared to what we might call a 5th gen fighter. The fact that there is 0 transparency around these defence projects means they have smartly insulated themselves from any sort of criticism that other programs like, say, the EFT or LCA have had to endure. 

When the PAK-FA enters service it will be a fully devloped 5th gen fighter with all the bells and whistles and will have benifited from decades of meticulous R&D and BILLIONS of USD in investment. The version the IAF will get (the "MKIised" version) will build on these strenghts and enhance the system as a whole by fitting the best possible tech from all over the world (India,Israel,France) onto their fighters whilst the RuAF's will only have Russian-origin systems. So yes, the PAK-FA and F-22 will be streaks ahead of the J-20/31 whenever they enter service and will have undergone many upgrades and later tranches. 


And the IAF's (same goes for IA/IN) strength has always been qualitive superiorty over the Chinese forces but the Chinese are able to(try and) balance this out with sheer numbers-that is where their strength lies. But the future is still open to change, and all we can do is wait and see!

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## Storm Force

A LOT EFFORT SWEAT AND FANBOYZ DREAMS on a subject matter that is 12-15 years away for both sides. 

J31 may never get off the ground 

AND FGFA has only 3 protoypes and needs a decade to reach IAF OR russian airforce.

LETS TALK TODAY & REALITY ie JFT F16MLU V SU30MKI MRAGE2000 & MIG29


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## Gessler

@wanglaokan

how many replies will yougive for a sarcastic post?


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## 1ndy

nwmalik said:


> but probably still cheaper than Rafael



Anything above 15 mil mark is out of your reach, that's why i said...


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## Gessler

orangzaib said:


> I honestly don't know how to respond to your post (and many of your countrymen's posts for instance). You guys put bullshitt beyond shame. Post like these remind me what you guys did to the American economy and jobs!!
> 
> Half of your post if about a mighty jet fighter that barely gotten off the paper into a first proof of concept. Yet, you are claiming how superior PakFa and FgFa may be??? Do you want to wait till they become operational so you can compare apples to apples?
> Also, the J-20, J-31 are using tech that's in American stealth fighters (Chinese gained access to American stealth technologies, it was in news so you should know about it). So for better or worse, the Chinese may have a competitive advantage over anyone else besides the US. However, how well they can copy...is another question. But their industry is definitely at the same level as the Russians is at this second (minus the jet propulsion / engines technologies). So on paper and per specs, the J-20 and J-31 should be a direct match to the F-22 and F-35 (I'd imagine 75% match at the most, still not bad for the Chinese defense industry who was lagging behind crazy). So my advise to you is, instead of coming off as a total idiot, try to post some sense or do rational comparisons. At least something from the gibberish written in your post should makes sense.



The the one writing gibberish here is you. Im comparing jet v/s jet as per the figures currently available
while you are comparing industry v/s industry, dude WTF do you really think the j-20 j-31 are 75% match
for f-22 and f-35??

well then in that aspect PAKFA is 100% and 175% match for f-22 and f-35 respectively. but dont you
think these are percentage figures are simply teeming with fanboyism? I only argue with the points
I can find, if you think my points were wrong, say so and correct me.

but dont watse my (and other Indian members') time by making posts like that. after reading your
whole post I can only say one thing - frustration in person.





Aeronaut said:


> Its too early to say what exact internal loadout would be.



Actually unlike other aspects internal loadout *can *be gauged by studying the size, cross-section, width
and other parameters of the fuselage. Im sure whomever may even revealed that 4-AAM figure must
have been cleverer than me.


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## Edevelop

Storm Force said:


> A LOT EFFORT SWEAT AND FANBOYZ DREAMS on a subject matter that is 12-15 years away for both sides.
> 
> J31 may never get off the ground
> 
> AND FGFA has only 3 protoypes and needs a decade to reach IAF OR russian airforce.
> 
> LETS TALK TODAY & REALITY ie *JFT F16MLU* V SU30MKI MRAGE2000 & MIG29



And where is F-16 Block 52 in your list ?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I would be suprised if China offers this plane for International Customers beyond itself and Pakistan , I mean why would they give out 5th generation stealth fighter jets to non allies ?






Here is the secret plant in a not so secret anymore flight

Never underestimate the Dragon force

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## Gessler

Hey are you trying to deny the facts or what?

Have you yet read my post #21? I think only PAF will be ready to buy such a crappy plane
as J-31. Even if anyone else buys it, they'll be the first thing going down in a war.

and im not impressed with the DSI at all. it limits max speed at 1.6 mach while PAKFA can zoom off
at 2.55 mach.



Storm Force said:


> A LOT EFFORT SWEAT AND FANBOYZ DREAMS on a subject matter that is 12-15 years away for both sides.
> 
> J31 may never get off the ground
> 
> AND FGFA has only 3 protoypes and needs a decade to reach IAF OR russian airforce.
> 
> LETS TALK TODAY & REALITY ie JFT F16MLU V SU30MKI MRAGE2000 & MIG29



talking of TODAY, the Su-30MKI is king.



cb4 said:


> And where is F-16 Block 52 in your list ?



you have only 18 of those blk-52s i think.


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## fatman17

*J-31 (Jianjiji-31 Fighter aircraft 31)*


The Chinese military leaked the first photos of long-rumored new stealth fighter, the second model revealed in China.The J-31 attracted wide public attention in June when some online pictures showed the cutting-edge fighter fully wrapped but with its futuristic shape still discernible. The J-31 fighter, named Falcon Eagle in Chinese, took its first flight at 10:32 am Beijing local time, Wednesday 31 October 2012, along with two J-11BS fighter jets from the runway of Shenyang Aircraft Corp, the producer and researcher of the fighter in Liaoning Province.

Shenyang Aircraft Industry Group (SAC), one of the leading aircraft design and manufacturing corporations of China&#65533;s aviation industry, revealed the prototype of what might eventually become Chinese analog to the American F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The new aircraft, said to be designated the J-31 or to have the codename F-60, has external characteristics that suggest to some that it could be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers. The J-31 prototype jet has the side number 31001, which is the origin of the J-31 nomenclature, since the first two J-20 prototypes had &#65533;2001&#65533; and &#65533;2002&#65533; side numbers, respectively. 

Photos of a model labeled F-60 were posted online as early as September 2011. These images show only scaled-down models, not the real thing, with one notable difference being the single wheel in the model versus the paired nose-wheels in the real deal. This radio-controlled F-60 model had been built with the Shenyang University of Aeronautics and Astronautics [SUAA]. In June 2012 a photograph of a full scale airframe being transported on a truck trailer, obscured by netting, appeared online.

Though no characteristics of the prototype have been unveiled, one major difference is obvious: unlike its American relative, China&#65533;s J-31 has two engines, as does the previously revealed J-20. The pictures of the Chinese technology demonstrator suggest that the engines the aircraft is currently equipped with do not have thrust vectoring nozzles. Possibly the prototype is at an early a stage of testing, and might be fitted with a more sophisticated and powerful propulsion package at a later date. The twin vertical tail and wide-spaced ram air inlets are reminiscent of these features on the Lockheed Martin&#65533;s F-22 Raptor.

The J-31 inlet design features diverterless supersonic inlet [DSI] similar in concept to that used on the American F-35. The F-35's diverterless inlet lightens the overall weight of the aircraft. Traditional aircraft inlets were comprised of many moving parts and are much heavier than newer diverterless inlets. The diverterless inlet also eliminates all moving parts. DSI moved from concept to reality when it was flown on a Block 30 F-16 in a highly successful demonstration program consisting of twelve flights flown in nine days in December 1996. Unlike the Russians and Indians, whose joint project to develop a fifth generation aircraft produced a single design, the Chinese military followed the American example and placed its bets on two horses: Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, which is already testing the J-20 fifth generation heavy combat aircraft, and Shenyang Aircraft Industry Group with its F-31/F-60 aircraft. It is unclear which America practice the Chinese have emulated. Possibly this is like the Advanced Tactical Fighter and Joint Strike Fighter programs, in which competing designs were flight tested before one was selected for production. Or possibly the J-31 and J-20 are not to be regarded as competitors, but as complementary pair such as the F-22 and F-35, because to some it appeared the aircraft may have different specializations.

The problem with the competitive fly-off explanation is that the first flight of the J-20 came in January 2010, nearly two years before the first flight of the J-31. This belies a competitive fly-off, absent a rather spectacular schedule delay in the J-31, or an extremely sedate development schedule in which such a two year discrepancy is insignficant in the long view. The complementary role explanation fails due to the apparent similarity in size. Unlike the large twin-engine air-superiority F-22 and smaller single engine air-to-ground F-35, both the graceful J-20 and the slightly shorter but visibly chunkier J-31 are twin-engined, presumably with the same WS10 Taihang engines. If the total weight of the shorter J-31 was signficiantly less than that of the J-20 [a fact not in evidence], either the J-31 would seem rather over-powered, or the J-20 somewhat under-powered.

China's J-31 stealth fighter may also be used on the carrier in future. The Liaoning would have about 40 fixed-wing aircraft on board. Possibly the complementarity lies in the J-20 being destined for land-based operations, while the J-31 is slated to go down to the sea in ships. Carrier based aircraft are normally twin-engined for safety reasons, and the Chinese might have decided that the greater structural strength needed for carrier operations would be wasted on a land-based J-20. The shorter J-31 would also make for easier handling on an aircraft carrier, where space is at a premium. The Chinese might also have decided that little was to be gained from trying to apply a common airframe to both the land and carrier missions. The F-4 Phantom succeeded in this effort, but the American F-35 was bedeviled by the requirements of being all things to all services.

The Chinese Military Review website published computer-generated images of the J-31 fifth generation fighter jet in action, with a variety of air to air missiles. On at least two images the aircraft is depicted with an extended tailhook that sea-based aircraft use to stop after landing on the deck of an aircraft carrier. The two-wheeled front rack chassis of the J-31 prototype also suggests the aircraft was designed for naval use, facilitating the attachment of the holdback device installed on the nosegear to the catapult, like sea-based versions of Dassault&#65533;s Rafale in France, Lockheed Martin&#65533;s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and the Russian Su-33. There is no indications that the J-31 prototype is capable of short take off and vertical landing, a capability of the F-35B STOVL variant.

The current weak point of the J-31 - and the J-20, and the non-stealthy J-15 [also known as the Flying Shark, which is said to be a match for US F-18 Hornet fighters] - is its Russia-made Al-31 engines, which are less powerful than those of the American F-35 fighter. However, these fighters will be more competitive in future when the Chinese jets is equipped with more powerful Chinese engines, because the American F-35 has only a single engine.

As is well known, both Chengdu&#65533;s J-20 and Shenyang&#65533;s J-31 face the problem of the lack of reliable Chinese-made jet engines with technical characteristics appropriate for a fifth generation fighter. Initially both may be fitted with Klimov RD-93 afterburning turbofans from Russia. China continues to buy Russian military jet engines. The WS10 Taihang, China's flagship jet fighter engine, remained seriously flawed after a quarter of century of development effort. The WS10 engine was intended to equip the new J-10 fighter, low-rate initial production of which was authorised in 2002. But at least the initial run of fifty J-10 aircraft were to be fitted with Russian AL-31F engines instead. The WS10 engine was reverse-engineered from the CFM-56 commercial turbofan, which in turn was a derivative of the General Electric F101 engine originally designed for the 1960s-era Advanced Manned Strategic Aircraft, which was eventually deployed as the B-1 bomber. That is to say, after nearly a quarter century development effort on a four decade old design, China remained unable to produce a viable high performance fighter engine. It is expected that eventually both the J-20 and J-31 will be fitted with the WS15 engine, but the core engine for the WS-15 engine was first tested in April 2005, suggesting a long road ahead.

China lacks the extensive electronic support [eg, RIVET JOINT, AWACS, etc] and aerial refueling capabilities that American stealth aicraft can rely upon. The J-31 might achieve an initial operational capability in the 2025 timeframe.

his thread should be moved to chinese section.


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## Kompromat

Thread moved.


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## Edevelop

gessler said:


> Hey are you trying to deny the facts or what?
> 
> Have you yet read my post #21? I think only PAF will be ready to buy such a crappy plane
> as J-31. Even if anyone else buys it, they'll be the first thing going down in a war.
> 
> *and im not impressed with the DSI at all. it limits max speed at 1.6 mach* while PAKFA can zoom off
> at 2.55 mach.



The max is 1.8 mach actually. The 1.6 is with hard points. and i'm sure the same cause can be applied to every fighter. The issue is not with DSI but with engines. We are currently using RD-93s. In the future we should be able to get the more powerful WS-13


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## Akasa

gessler said:


> Hey are you trying to deny the facts or what?
> 
> Have you yet read my post #21? I think only PAF will be ready to buy such a crappy plane
> as J-31. Even if anyone else buys it, they'll be the first thing going down in a war.
> 
> and im not impressed with the DSI at all. it limits max speed at 1.6 mach while PAKFA can zoom off
> at 2.55 mach.



If the J-31 is "crappy", then so is the T-50 and the F-35. So far the DSI does not limit the aircraft's speed to Mach 1.8, but rather Mach 2, and only if the DSI aren't variable, which is unlikely the case in the J-31 and J-20; the DSI also covers the fan blades and therefore makes the plane stealthier, unlike the T-50 which exposes its fan blades.

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## RazPaK

SinoSoldier said:


> If the J-31 is "crappy", then so is the T-50 and the F-35. So far the DSI does not limit the aircraft's speed to Mach 1.8, but rather Mach 2, and only if the DSI aren't variable, which is unlikely the case in the J-31 and J-20; the DSI also covers the fan blades and therefore makes the plane stealthier, unlike the T-50 which exposes its fan blades.



The Indian is crazy. He is comparing peanuts to peanuts.


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## Akasa

Abingdonboy said:


> The Chinese aerospace industery is just not up to the same level as the West and Russia. Now the J-20/31 might look all nice and stealthy but what really gives a 5th gen fighter an edge is avionics,sensor fusion,EW suite,engines and weapons package. China is dearly lacking in all these areas. Russia and the West are far,FAR ahead in all these areas so the idea of a Su-35 purchase for China would be to buy one of the most capable fighters on the market right now to strip down and reverse engineer. The Su-35 would come with some good sensors and a very good engine. Now others like say the French, are ahead of Russia in the avionics/sensor arena eg the SPECTRA suite is the most capable such system on the planet by all accounts, but the French just aren't willing to sell such equipment to the Chinese nor are most of the world due to China's complete disregard of IP laws. As such China is turning to Russia. The fact is China can't play catch up in complete isolation in the span of jusrt over a decade so it does need outside help but this help is not forthcoming. Not to mention that whilst Russia has some great tech in some areas it too is lacking notably avionics and sensors-this is why India has gone with Western (Israeli/French) tech on their MKIs not to mention Indian tech and will do so even on the 5th gen fighters from Russia. But Russia is the only viable player out their even considering sales to China. As such China has dug itself into quite a whole and this is where India actually stands in a better position- yes India is currently lagging in indigenous production of defence equipment but the thing is that it is still freinds with everyone and all the major defence companies in the world are entering into JVs left right and centre not to mention TOT is coming in for almost every major defence purchases these days. India is going to be able to take expertise from those on the cutting edge whilst China continues to struggle in isolation. It is for this exact reason that China is going to have an incredibly tough time getting a grip on ACC operations and my guess is it is going to lose A LOT of lives and machines unfortunately. What they are attempting to do has never been done before ie get a handle on the basics of ACC operations with supersonic high-performance jets. All other ACC powers started out with props and sub-sonic a/c.
> 
> 
> How does anyone really think China has surpassed the standards of the West/Russia wrt 5th gen tech with only a fraction of the time and funds invested in such a venture?? It just isn't possible! If the J-20/31 were credible threats the US would be going crazy but they have barely batted an eyelid, why? Because almost any aviation expert worth their salt agrees that what we see flying are nothing but flying "shells". There is simply no way the Chinese have developed the tech to rival the West or Russia in this arena-NO WAY. Is it really logical to think that one of the greatest aviation companies in the world (Lockheed Martin) working with some of the leading defence companies in the world (BAE systems,Northrup Grunmen, Raytheon etc) would be out done in a fraction of the time by the Chinese who have barely even got a grasp on building a 4th gen fighter??! The simple truth is China has a long and hard road in front of it and the fact it is working in isolation and foregoing R&D for industrial espionage means the task is mammoth. The Chinese are at least 15 years (probably more) away from fielding any fighter that can even be compared to what we might call a 5th gen fighter. The fact that there is 0 transparency around these defence projects means they have smartly insulated themselves from any sort of criticism that other programs like, say, the EFT or LCA have had to endure.
> 
> When the PAK-FA enters service it will be a fully devloped 5th gen fighter with all the bells and whistles and will have benifited from decades of meticulous R&D and BILLIONS of USD in investment. The version the IAF will get (the "MKIised" version) will build on these strenghts and enhance the system as a whole by fitting the best possible tech from all over the world (India,Israel,France) onto their fighters whilst the RuAF's will only have Russian-origin systems. So yes, the PAK-FA and F-22 will be streaks ahead of the J-20/31 whenever they enter service and will have undergone many upgrades and later tranches.
> 
> 
> And the IAF's (same goes for IA/IN) strength has always been qualitive superiorty over the Chinese forces but the Chinese are able to(try and) balance this out with sheer numbers-that is where their strength lies. But the future is still open to change, and all we can do is wait and see!



What does the West and Russia have that China doesn't? It seems that you've been a bit oblivious towards the Chinese aerospace industry for the past 10 years.

It depends on which areas you are referring to. Yes, Russia may be ahead in terms of large transport aircraft, but China certainly has mastered some trades as well such as electronics, UAVs, and stealth design.

It's funny how you claim China has yet to master 5th generation technology. China has built more AESA radar variants than any other European country including Russia. China also has tested fifth generation technology aboard previous generation fighters such as the J-11B, J-15, J-16, and J-10B. In fact, if you compare the various systems appearing in China compared to that of the West, you'd find that whatever gap that existed during the previous decade has been either made up or surpassed. In terms of technology, China's J-11B, J-15, and J-16 fighters already possess all that is available on the Su-35, such as a powerful phased array radar, engines, RAM, composites, IRST, MAWS, etc.

If the J-31 isn't defined a 5th generation fighter, then neither is the F-22 or F-35. In fact, the T-50 and F-35 lacks at least two of the features that allows it to be defined a "5th generation fighter". The F-35 lacks supercruise, supermaneuverability, and the T-50 lacks stealth.

IAF doesn't have a qualitative edge over the PLAAF in any way, especially when its top line fighter still lacks the extent of the upgrades seen on China's second-line J-11B, such as AESA radar, RAM, composites, and 132 kN engines. Oh, and we haven't even touched on the IAF's lack of force multipliers, EW aircraft, bomber aircraft, and advanced sensors when compared to the PLAAF. Welcome to the 21st century, buddy.



RazPaK said:


> The Indian is crazy. He is comparing peanuts to peanuts.



He would be considered once he provides his reasoning. DSI has its advantages in modern warfare.

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## Gessler

SinoSoldier said:


> If the J-31 is "crappy", then so is the T-50 and the F-35. So far the DSI does not limit the aircraft's speed to Mach 1.8, but rather Mach 2, and only if the DSI aren't variable, which is unlikely the case in the J-31 and J-20; the DSI also covers the fan blades and therefore makes the plane stealthier, unlike the T-50 which exposes its fan blades.



&#1061;&#1086;&#1090;&#1103; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1099; &#1074;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1091;&#1093;&#1086;&#1079;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074; &#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1102;&#1090; &#1091;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1082;&#1091; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1077; &#1084;&#1086;&#1097;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081; - &#1080;&#1093; &#1092;&#1086;&#1088;&#1084;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1080;&#1090; J-20 &#1076;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080;&#1095;&#1100; &#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1081; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1077; 1.6 &#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080; &#1079;&#1074;&#1091;&#1082;&#1072;. &#1042;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1103;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;, &#1077;&#1075;&#1086; &#1084;&#1072;&#1082;&#1089;&#1080;&#1084;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1072;&#1103; &#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1089;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090; &#1085;&#1077; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1077; 1.5&#1052; (&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1081; &#1079;&#1074;&#1091;&#1082;&#1072 &#1085;&#1072; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1096;&#1086;&#1081; &#1074;&#1099;&#1089;&#1086;&#1090;&#1077;. 

*Although the size of the air intakes allows for the installation of more powerful engines - their form would not let J-20 to reach speeds more than 1.6 speed of sound. Probably a top speed of no more than 1.5M (speed of sound) at high altitude.*

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/j20.html

What is true for J-20 is also true for J-31. Even F-35's speed with the behemoth 191-kN F135 engine is limited at Mach 1.6.

J-31 is clearly not upto the standard of jets like PAKFA or F-22 or even F-35.

PAKFA uses other methods rather than shaping to hide fan blades, you'll know about those systems
soon enough. The Russians already perfected S-shape ducts with the Su-47 Berkut, but still they
decided to go for the type of ducts you see on PAKFA today for reasons you'll come to know by and
by.

DSI may make a plane stealthier but not always. F-35 (with DSI) has a frontal RCS of 0.0025m2
or the size of a golfball while F-22 (without DSI) has a frontal RCS of 0.0001m2 or the size of metal
marble. Plus the spherical shape of the DSI bumps actually adds to RCS when scanned in certain
wavelengths, although not always.


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## Gessler

cb4 said:


> The max is 1.8 mach actually. The 1.6 is with hard points. and i'm sure the same cause can be applied to every fighter. The issue is not with DSI but with engines. We are currently using RD-93s. In the future we should be able to get the more powerful WS-13



J-31 will be forced to carry external hardpoints (which add both RCS and drag) becoz with just 4 missiles in internal bays J-31's battlefield operations will be tough and you'll need to fly twice the no. of sorties as IAF to do the same level of damage.

The thrust increase offered by WS-13 vis-a-vis RD-93 is mearge. According to few sources WS-13 is going to take much more time than expected to get ready -

According to CAST blog, in interview to CAST representative at Zhuhai a Deputy Director of SARI has reported that the current TBO of WS-10A Taihang is only 300 hours. Progress with improving TBO and other characteristics is persist, but going slow. By his words, it is impossible to name a single issue causing difficulties with Chinese aircraft engines - there are a range of issues, including those related to process organisation and personnel. The situation with WS-13 Taishan, which should replace the Russian RD-93, is even more complicated than with Taihang - TBO for WS-13 is less then that 1/2 than for WS-10A."
^^http://bmpd.livejournal.com/383025.html

The chinese jet engines have years to go before being even as relaible as RD-93, whose MRO facilities
are still not present anywhere in Pak or China.


----------



## Akasa

gessler said:


> J-31 will be forced to carry external hardpoints (which add both RCS and drag) becoz with just 4 missiles in internal bays J-31's battlefield operations will be tough and you'll need to fly twice the no. of sorties as IAF to do the same level of damage.
> 
> The thrust increase offered by WS-13 vis-a-vis RD-93 is mearge. According to few sources WS-13 is going to take much more time than expected to get ready -
> 
> According to CAST blog, in interview to CAST representative at Zhuhai a Deputy Director of SARI has reported that the current TBO of WS-10A Taihang is only 300 hours. Progress with improving TBO and other characteristics is persist, but going slow. By his words, it is impossible to name a single issue causing difficulties with Chinese aircraft engines - there are a range of issues, including those related to process organisation and personnel. The situation with WS-13 Taishan, which should replace the Russian RD-93, is even more complicated than with Taihang - TBO for WS-13 is less then that 1/2 than for WS-10A."
> ^^bmpd -
> 
> The chinese jet engines have years to go before being even as relaible as RD-93, whose MRO facilities
> are still not present anywhere in Pak or China.



The J-31 is a stealth fighter, meaning that once it opens up the door for other planes, the 4.5 gen fighters will do the rest. The payload of the J-31 depends on the thrust to weight ratio, which will be comparable to the F-35.

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## Nishan_101

Other than Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Jordan and Oman should look towards getting it. For Oman(25-30), Jordan(50-70), UAE(Production of 50-70) and For Saudi Arabia(Production 160-210) would be much better.


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## Gessler

RazPaK said:


> The Indian is crazy. He is comparing peanuts to peanuts.



And what are you gonna do about that? sell me some peanuts?

how much for 500gm?


----------



## Akasa

gessler said:


> &#1061;&#1086;&#1090;&#1103; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1099; &#1074;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1091;&#1093;&#1086;&#1079;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074; &#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1102;&#1090; &#1091;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1082;&#1091; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1077; &#1084;&#1086;&#1097;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081; - &#1080;&#1093; &#1092;&#1086;&#1088;&#1084;&#1072; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1083;&#1080;&#1090; J-20 &#1076;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080;&#1095;&#1100; &#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1081; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1077; 1.6 &#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080; &#1079;&#1074;&#1091;&#1082;&#1072;. &#1042;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1103;&#1090;&#1085;&#1086;, &#1077;&#1075;&#1086; &#1084;&#1072;&#1082;&#1089;&#1080;&#1084;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1072;&#1103; &#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1089;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090; &#1085;&#1077; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1077; 1.5&#1052; (&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1081; &#1079;&#1074;&#1091;&#1082;&#1072 &#1085;&#1072; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1096;&#1086;&#1081; &#1074;&#1099;&#1089;&#1086;&#1090;&#1077;.
> 
> *Although the size of the air intakes allows for the installation of more powerful engines - their form would not let J-20 to reach speeds more than 1.6 speed of sound. Probably a top speed of no more than 1.5M (speed of sound) at high altitude.*
> 
> Chengdu J-20
> 
> What is true for J-20 is also true for J-31. Even F-35's speed with the behemoth 191-kN F135 engine is limited at Mach 1.6.
> 
> J-31 is clearly not upto the standard of jets like PAKFA or F-22 or even F-35.
> 
> PAKFA uses other methods rather than shaping to hide fan blades, you'll know about those systems
> soon enough. The Russians already perfected S-shape ducts with the Su-47 Berkut, but still they
> decided to go for the type of ducts you see on PAKFA today for reasons you'll come to know by and
> by.
> 
> DSI may make a plane stealthier but not always. F-35 (with DSI) has a frontal RCS of 0.0025m2
> or the size of a golfball while F-22 (without DSI) has a frontal RCS of 0.0001m2 or the size of metal
> marble. Plus the spherical shape of the DSI bumps actually adds to RCS when scanned in certain
> wavelengths, although not always.



This source mentions that the DSI limit is actually Mach 2.0, and even it mentions that it is possible to fly faster than Mach 2.0 with DSI with new designs, which the J-20 does (i.e. variable geometry DSI on the J-10). Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet Also, like I said, DSI has huge advantages in stealth, something the T-50 needs to work with.

The J-31 incorporates all of the upgrades on the F-35 and T-50, which, by the way, still lacks the two "S" to complete its 5th generation definition: stealth and supermaneuverability. Even though we do not know much, the images suggest that the J-31 already has a major stealth advantage over the T-50.


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## Gessler

SinoSoldier said:


> The J-31 is a stealth fighter, meaning that once it opens up the door for other planes, the 4.5 gen fighters will do the rest. The payload of the J-31 depends on the thrust to weight ratio, which will be comparable to the F-35.



So J-31 is essentially a precursor to 4.5 gen jets and not a true frontline air-dominance jet like
FGFA or F-22.

Lemme me explain to you something - gone are the days when a jet has a rely on another to achieve
upper hand in battle. The IAF mentality regarding these matter is quite different from that of PAF
or PLAAF.

There is nothing that 4.5 gen jets you're talking about can do against an airspace dominated by PAKFAs,
which the J-31s will fail to overcome in the first place. and 2ndly, do you think IAF doesn't have
4.5 gen planes or what? Oh boy we're getting 300 MKIs and >200 Rafales and ~150 Tejas variants or
so performing different roles.

Each plane in IAF can fight its own war. its better not to waste money on a jet that would be helpless
without support of 4.5 gen jets, FGFAs can fight their own war, while MKIs, Rafales etc. concentrate
on the background duties. The 5th gen plane is one thats LEADS the air campiagns, not one that
sits behind 4.5 gen jets to fight its war.

As i have explained above, J-31 deployment in a battlefield involving hostile PAKFA/FGFA will be
counter-productive.


----------



## Gessler

SinoSoldier said:


> This source mentions that the DSI limit is actually Mach 2.0, and even it mentions that it is possible to fly faster than Mach 2.0 with DSI with new designs, which the J-20 does (i.e. variable geometry DSI on the J-10). Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet Also, like I said, DSI has huge advantages in stealth, something the T-50 needs to work with.
> 
> The J-31 incorporates all of the upgrades on the F-35 and T-50, which, by the way, still lacks the two "S" to complete its 5th generation definition: stealth and supermaneuverability. Even though we do not know much, the images suggest that the J-31 already has a major stealth advantage over the T-50.



Maybe for F-35 which is less draggy than J-20, and has higher TWR.

You're being a fool to say T-50 doesn't have stealth and supermaneuverability. PAKFA is the most
maneuevrable jet fighter out there.

Id rather stick to my source rather than dillude myself with your magazine
theory.


----------



## Gessler

SinoSoldier said:


> This source mentions that the DSI limit is actually Mach 2.0, and even it mentions that it is possible to fly faster than Mach 2.0 with DSI with new designs, which the J-20 does (i.e. variable geometry DSI on the J-10). Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet Also, like I said, DSI has huge advantages in stealth, something the T-50 needs to work with.
> 
> The J-31 incorporates all of the upgrades on the F-35 and T-50, which, by the way, still lacks the two "S" to complete its 5th generation definition: stealth and supermaneuverability. Even though we do not know much, the images suggest that the J-31 already has a major stealth advantage over the T-50.



While you think and dillude yourself that PAKFA lacks the 2 "S". You dont realise that J-31 is lacking the others,

the only "S" J-31 completes thus far is stealth. even that is not as good as the comparable F-35 becoz
of many wing-form surface discontinuties.

The horizontal stabs should be blending into the trailing edge of the main wings
and not supposed to stick out like that, like an F-16 or F/A-18. J-20's canards
have the same problem - surface discontinuity.

Chinese jets stealth is not fully up to the mark either.


----------



## Sanchez

gessler said:


> While you think and dillude yourself that PAKFA lacks the 2 "S". You dont realise that J-31 is lacking the others,
> 
> the only "S" J-31 completes thus far is stealth. even that is not as good as the comparable F-35 becoz
> of many wing-form surface discontinuties.
> 
> The horizontal stabs should be blending into the trailing edge of the main wings
> and not supposed to stick out like that, like an F-16 or F/A-18. J-20's canards
> have the same problem - surface discontinuity.
> 
> Chinese jets stealth is not fully up to the mark either.



People know everything about Russian jets. How the hell do you anything know about Chinese J-20 or J-31, you Indians?


----------



## xyxmt

HAIDER said:


> *While the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) have ostensibly developed the JF-17 jointly, analysts say most of the development was done by CAC
> Ajai Shukla / New Delhi Nov 13, 2012, 00:07 IST*
> 
> Two weeks after Chinas new J-31 stealth fighter made its debut flight on October 31, it will be officially acknowledged with a mock-up of the aircraft in Airshow China, the Beijing-endorsed air show that opens in Zhuhai, China, on Tuesday. With Chinas official media reporting the J-31 will be sold to abroad customers, Indian analysts say the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) might be one of the earliest customers of the fighter aircraft.
> 
> The English-language newspaper Global Times, owned by the Communist Party of China (CPC), cites Bai Wei, former editor of the Aviation World Monthly, as saying, Currently, the only fifth generation fighter available for sale is the F-35 by the US. The J-31 will offer an alternative for non-traditional allies of the US.
> 
> The leakage of photos of the J-31 debut flight, which analysts regard as deliberate, had triggered speculation that the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) had built that aircraft for the international market, creating a rival for Lockheed Martins long-delayed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Aviation experts assess the J-31 would also need 7-10 years to enter operational service.
> 
> Indian analysts, including Pushpindar Singh of the Society for Aerospace Studies, point out the PAFs preference for Chinese fighter aircraft make it likely that it would acquire the J-31 as soon as the fighter is ready for operational service. Already, the backbone of the PAF is made up of Chinese fighters like the JF-17 Thunder, the J-10 and the F-7. It is close to certain that Pakistan would also opt for at least two squadrons of the J-31, given that the US is unlikely to allow it into the F-35 partnership, says Pushpindar Singh.
> 
> Indian analysts believe the PAF will emerge as a 23-squadron air force by 2020, with its backbone consisting of 12-13 squadrons of the JF-17 light fighter.
> 
> While the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) have ostensibly developed the JF-17 jointly, analysts believe that most of the development was done by CAC. The PAF already operates four squadrons of the JF-17, which is part-built in Pakistan and China.
> 
> In 2020, the PAF would also have four squadrons of Lockheed Martin F-16s, two squadrons of the J-10 from CAC, and three squadrons of older Chinese F-7TGs.
> 
> The close relationship between the PLAAF and the PAF is evident from the presence at the Zhuhai Air Show of three PAF JF-17 fighters, which will be flying displays during the show.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is currently down to 34 squadrons, with which it must defend both the Pakistan and China borders. By 2017, the 14 IAF squadrons that fly MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters would also have been disbanded, and replaced by just four new squadrons of Sukhoi-30MKI fighters.
> 
> With the procurement of the Dassault Rafale fighter also running late, the IAF will be facing what can only be described as a crisis in 2017, says Pushpindar Singh.
> 
> Airshow China will also feature, for the first time ever, Chinas new WZ-10 attack helicopter, which will be capable of flying anti-tank and anti-aircraft missions, fielding a payload of rockets, missiles and a rapid-fire cannon.
> 
> Like in every China-built fighter aircraft, the five-tonne helicopter will be powered by a foreign engine.
> 
> The air show at Zhuhai will also feature a new Chinese long-range ground-to-air missile called the FD-2000.
> 
> Chinese J-31 stealth fighter for global market



I dont know who this Bud Shakla writer is but his article is about J-31 but he starts of with a typical narrow hindu mentality only to boost the ego of his kind. where do you educate these


----------



## SQ8

I stopped reading the article after Shukla's ill informed comments on the JF-17's development. The man is speaking out of bigotry rather than sense.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Oscar said:


> I stopped reading the article after Shukla's ill informed comments on the JF-17's development. The man is speaking out of bigotry rather than sense.


he is an indian what can you expect


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## SQ8

wasm95 said:


> he is an indian what can you expect



I expect better because I deal with Indians everyday, and they are not the kind I would expect to talk bull especially Shuklas kind.
As for the double faced attitude we all accuse them of, just get a few Indians drunk and then ask them questions. You will see their actual attitudes; And so far it has been all about shoving this history down the drain, bury the hatchet and get on with out lives.

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## Broccoli

*Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter*


> As much as the resources wielded by the Chinese state aerospace industry impress outsiders these days, few could have expected that one of the companies in the sector would want to produce a stealth fighter on its own account.
> 
> But that is just what Shenyang Aircraft wants to do. Equally surprisingly, the Chinese air force is turning its nose up at the result. What looks like a thoroughly modern stealth fighter is apparently not good enough to serve as China's next medium-weight combat aircraft.
> 
> After three evidently staged appearances of the real aircraft this year, Avic displayed a model at Airshow China in Zhuhai last week, displaying the fighter that is unofficially called the J-31 and known to come from Shenyang. The aircraft is being developed &#8220;for the international defense market,&#8221; says Avic.



Full article here.
Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter

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## Storm Force

The writer has made some MASSIVE assumptions MOST way exaggerated 

1. That J31 will be completed and available for export in 2020 
2. That China wil readily sell their latest technology freely to client states. IMO the chinease are highly secretive esp their latest weapons and cant see J20 OR J31 so freely avialable

FINALY J10/FC20 despite being a obvious success ( a fighter i love myself) it is yet to achieve a SINGLE export customer. WE ASK WHY this is so since it entered PLAAF service 2006 ie 6 years ago. 

IS IT because china wont sell OR because they cant shake off the WESTERN /RUSSIAN competition


----------



## UKBengali

Storm Force said:


> The writer has made some MASSIVE assumptions MOST way exaggerated
> 
> 1. That J31 will be completed and available for export in 2020
> 2. That China wil readily sell their latest technology freely to client states. IMO the chinease are highly secretive esp their latest weapons and cant see J20 OR J31 so freely avialable
> 
> FINALY J10/FC20 despite being a obvious success ( a fighter i love myself) it is yet to achieve a SINGLE export customer. WE ASK WHY this is so since it entered PLAAF service 2006 ie 6 years ago.
> 
> IS IT because china wont sell OR because they cant shake off the WESTERN /RUSSIAN competition




The J-31 will be available for sale as the most advanced by then will be J-20.

People also need to think about the geopolitical situation in the world by 2020. China's economy will be as large if not larger than the US by then and the Chinese will be in a straight competition with the US for influence around the world. One of the ways you do this is by being able to offer some of the most advanced military technology to countries you do not consider hostile. China and the US want to become allies with country X - US offers F-35 and the Chinese respond with the J-31.

As far as why the J-10 has not sold, it is mainly due to the below 2 factors:

1. The WS-10A engine is still not been considered reliable enough to put inside the single-engined J-10 fighter.
2. As the Chinese are behind the US in technology, they really do not want the US and other potential enemies knowing the true capabilities of there latest technology.

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## Gessler

Sanchez said:


> People know everything about Russian jets. How the hell do you anything know about Chinese J-20 or J-31, you Indians?



And do you think you know everything about Russian jets becoz you
flown their decades-old su-27 ?

The j-31 is futile in combat versus PAKFA/F-22/F-35 while J-20 can only
take down F-35. F-22 Raptor and PAKFA/FGFA are still better than J-20 in
air combat.


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## Gessler

xyxmt said:


> I dont know who this Bud Shakla writer is but his article is about J-31 but he starts of with a typical narrow hindu mentality only to boost the ego of his kind. where do you educate these



Ajai Shukla is not any favoured analyst in India. He always criticises our own capability as well as
that of others. He's a critic, not an analyst if you ask me.

and how dare you say "narrow hindu mentality"? in pakistan, the majority people are said not to
consider shias as muslims, this makes Mohd. Jinaah a non-muslim. happy now? 

how bout i say narrow muslim mentality.


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## Gessler

Oscar said:


> I stopped reading the article after Shukla's ill informed comments on the JF-17's development. The man is speaking out of bigotry rather than sense.



bigotry?

he's infact exaggerating JF-17. He says there are 4 squadrons of jft in PAF, but in reality there are only
36 such jets in service making up only 2 sqds. This was revealed by PAF's own officials at zuhai.


----------



## Gessler

UKBengali said:


> The J-31 will be available for sale as the most advanced by then will be J-20.
> 
> People also need to think about the geopolitical situation in the world by 2020. China's economy will be as large if not larger than the US by then and the Chinese will be in a straight competition with the US for influence around the world. One of the ways you do this is by being able to offer some of the most advanced military technology to countries you do not consider hostile. China and the US want to become allies with country X - US offers F-35 and the Chinese respond with the J-31.
> 
> As far as why the J-10 has not sold, it is mainly due to the below 2 factors:
> 
> 1. The WS-10A engine is still not been considered reliable enough to put inside the single-engined J-10 fighter.
> 2. As the Chinese are behind the US in technology, they really do not want the US and other potential enemies knowing the true capabilities of there latest technology.



Reality is that no one, no one with a CHOICE at hand wants chinese jets.

1. What if chinese engine is not ready? the AL-31FN is good, and even after WS-10 comes, its
foolish to think t'll be more reliable than AL-31FN. JAS Gripen has US engine, and still its been exported
to *6 countries *thus far.

2. contraty to your beliefs, the J-10 WAS offered for sale to many countries, it even participated in
a Myanmarese tender for new jets. but was rejected in favour of MiG-29, which the Burmese considered
more capable, *despite* the fact that twin-engined mig-29 is costlier than single-engine j-10.

and Burma in itself is not a very rich country either.

Chinese J-10 suffers first overseas defeat to MiG-29 Fulcrum

please read the above article^^.

J-10's tech is 40-45 yrs behind that of US' best fighters, the likes of which F-35 JSF they've put on the
global market.

so stop dilluding yourself with the nonsense fed to you by chinese cover-up bridage, and instead know
the facts that chinese jets are not competitive at the global stage the way American, European or Russian
jets are.

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## UKBengali

^^ I stopped reading after it said that the J-10s tech is 40-45 years behind the best US fighters.

So a F-4 can take on a J-10!!!!!!


Please carry on entertaining us with your posts.


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## Akasa

gessler said:


> So J-31 is essentially a precursor to 4.5 gen jets and not a true frontline air-dominance jet like
> FGFA or F-22.
> 
> Lemme me explain to you something - gone are the days when a jet has a rely on another to achieve
> upper hand in battle. The IAF mentality regarding these matter is quite different from that of PAF
> or PLAAF.
> 
> There is nothing that 4.5 gen jets you're talking about can do against an airspace dominated by PAKFAs,
> which the J-31s will fail to overcome in the first place. and 2ndly, do you think IAF doesn't have
> 4.5 gen planes or what? Oh boy we're getting 300 MKIs and >200 Rafales and ~150 Tejas variants or
> so performing different roles.
> 
> Each plane in IAF can fight its own war. its better not to waste money on a jet that would be helpless
> without support of 4.5 gen jets, FGFAs can fight their own war, while MKIs, Rafales etc. concentrate
> on the background duties. The 5th gen plane is one thats LEADS the air campiagns, not one that
> sits behind 4.5 gen jets to fight its war.
> 
> As i have explained above, J-31 deployment in a battlefield involving hostile PAKFA/FGFA will be
> counter-productive.



The J-31 is a spearhead, meaning that in combat it opens the door (in military terms by destroying enemy air defenses) for other planes to go in and do the striking. The J-31 is a 5th generation jet, so I don't know what you mean by "precursor to 4.5 generation". The PAK FA is not going to be produced in such a number that allows it to dominate the skies continuously. If it is, then that means even more J-31 is going to be produced due to its faster manufacturing. I also can safely say that, with the current development and testing, the J-31 is going to be an all-round fighter with capabilities matching or close to the T-50. So if a PAK FA manages to miraculously break through enemy air defenses, it is going to face a lot more J-31s that have more or less the same capability.


----------



## Akasa

gessler said:


> Maybe for F-35 which is less draggy than J-20, and has higher TWR.
> 
> You're being a fool to say T-50 doesn't have stealth and supermaneuverability. PAKFA is the most
> maneuevrable jet fighter out there.
> 
> Id rather stick to my source rather than dillude myself with your magazine
> theory.



In terms of aerodynamics, the F-35 is nowhere near comparable to the J-20. The J-20 incorporates delta wing design, reduces drag, as well as platform alignment and canards that offer maneuverability. The PAK FA is not the most maneuverable. For one, its thrust to weight ratio won't be as high as the J-20 and its Flanker-derived airframe simply won't achieve the same agility as the J-10 based airframe of the J-20 as seen during mock combat between PLAAF Flankers and J-10s. I'm curious to what your source is. The T-50 lacks DSI, jagged saw tooth edges, platform alignment, airframe consistency, single piece canopy, that is required to build a VLO design.


----------



## Akasa

gessler said:


> While you think and dillude yourself that PAKFA lacks the 2 "S". You dont realise that J-31 is lacking the others,
> 
> the only "S" J-31 completes thus far is stealth. even that is not as good as the comparable F-35 becoz
> of many wing-form surface discontinuties.
> 
> The horizontal stabs should be blending into the trailing edge of the main wings
> and not supposed to stick out like that, like an F-16 or F/A-18. J-20's canards
> have the same problem - surface discontinuity.
> 
> Chinese jets stealth is not fully up to the mark either.



The J-31, for one, uses a F-22 style airframe consistent design, as well as DSI, platform alignemtn, all of which are lacking on both the F-35 and T-50. While both the J-31 and T-50 will incorporate AESA radar and 5th generation avionics, the T-50 will be at a disadvantage during a shootout due to its massive RCS; which means that the the only "S" that the J-31 might be lacking in is its thrust to weight ratio, but with the new WS-13G engines and composites, that won't be a problem.


----------



## Akasa

gessler said:


> Reality is that no one, no one with a CHOICE at hand wants chinese jets.
> 
> 1. What if chinese engine is not ready? the AL-31FN is good, and even after WS-10 comes, its
> foolish to think t'll be more reliable than AL-31FN. JAS Gripen has US engine, and still its been exported
> to *6 countries *thus far.
> 
> 2. contraty to your beliefs, the J-10 WAS offered for sale to many countries, it even participated in
> a Myanmarese tender for new jets. but was rejected in favour of MiG-29, which the Burmese considered
> more capable, *despite* the fact that twin-engined mig-29 is costlier than single-engine j-10.
> 
> and Burma in itself is not a very rich country either.
> 
> Chinese J-10 suffers first overseas defeat to MiG-29 Fulcrum
> 
> please read the above article^^.
> 
> J-10's tech is 40-45 yrs behind that of US' best fighters, the likes of which F-35 JSF they've put on the
> global market.
> 
> so stop dilluding yourself with the nonsense fed to you by chinese cover-up bridage, and instead know
> the facts that chinese jets are not competitive at the global stage the way American, European or Russian
> jets are.



Funny thing is, the WS-10 is already ready. It's been in service with all of the J-11Bs.

If the J-10 is 40-45 years behind US's best fighters, then that implies that the J-10 would made its maiden flight on March 23, 2033. Oops, seems that your time machine didn't get the patent.


----------



## applesauce

gessler said:


> Reality is that no one, no one with a CHOICE at hand wants chinese jets.
> 
> 1. What if chinese engine is not ready? the AL-31FN is good, and even after WS-10 comes, its
> foolish to think t'll be more reliable than AL-31FN. JAS Gripen has US engine, and still its been exported
> to *6 countries *thus far.
> 
> 2. contraty to your beliefs, the J-10 WAS offered for sale to many countries, it even participated in
> a Myanmarese tender for new jets. but was rejected in favour of MiG-29, which the Burmese considered
> more capable, *despite* the fact that twin-engined mig-29 is costlier than single-engine j-10.
> 
> and Burma in itself is not a very rich country either.



pakistan certainly has choice but chooses chinese jets and they do just fine, as do others like egypt which was firmly aligned with american yet bought chinese jets



gessler said:


> Chinese J-10 suffers first overseas defeat to MiG-29 Fulcrum
> 
> please read the above article^^.
> 
> J-10's tech is 40-45 yrs behind that of US' best fighters, the likes of which F-35 JSF they've put on the
> global market.
> 
> so stop dilluding yourself with the nonsense fed to you by chinese cover-up bridage, and instead know
> the facts that chinese jets are not competitive at the global stage the way American, European or Russian
> jets are.



j-10 never was meant to face f-35, such jobs falls on j-20/project 31

lol **checks the web site u list**

hahaha some fan boy made web site(of course u would use that as source lol) that makes all kinds of claims without backing anything up

quote "After a lot of reverse engineering and a few prototype crashes" end quote

haha not even gonna touch the LAVI clone claim, one of the things AVIC parades around is that j-10 development had no crashes but rumor persists for no reason but of course to you the fan boys word is law while the chinese only ever lie.

also half the supposed references on that site doesn't even work(or it links to an ad lol) the 2 that does only show basic info about the j-10 and mig-29(hurr durr we need reference that j-10 has 2 wings? lol) and in no way proves any of the lies fan boys like you posts


----------



## Gessler

SinoSoldier said:


> The J-31 is a spearhead, meaning that in combat it opens the door (in military terms by destroying enemy air defenses) for other planes to go in and do the striking. The J-31 is a 5th generation jet, so I don't know what you mean by "precursor to 4.5 generation". The PAK FA is not going to be produced in such a number that allows it to dominate the skies continuously. If it is, then that means even more J-31 is going to be produced due to its faster manufacturing. I also can safely say that, with the current development and testing, the J-31 is going to be an all-round fighter with capabilities matching or close to the T-50. So if a PAK FA manages to miraculously break through enemy air defenses, it is going to face a lot more J-31s that have more or less the same capability.



J-31 lacks the firepower to spearhead an operation. while PAKFA has it and much more.


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## Ammyy

applesauce said:


> pakistan certainly has choice but chooses chinese jets and they do just fine, as do others like egypt which was firmly aligned with american yet bought chinese jets



No they dnt have any choice other then China..
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/52860-jf-17-french-avionics-deal-hold-cancelled.html


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## Gessler

SinoSoldier said:


> In terms of aerodynamics, the F-35 is nowhere near comparable to the J-20. The J-20 incorporates delta wing design, reduces drag, as well as platform alignment and canards that offer maneuverability. The PAK FA is not the most maneuverable. For one, its thrust to weight ratio won't be as high as the J-20 and its Flanker-derived airframe simply won't achieve the same agility as the J-10 based airframe of the J-20 as seen during mock combat between PLAAF Flankers and J-10s. I'm curious to what your source is. The T-50 lacks DSI, jagged saw tooth edges, platform alignment, airframe consistency, single piece canopy, that is required to build a VLO design.



For one, you have been deeply dilluded by fanboys. The PAKFA will get the new Saturn "Type-30" engines with *176kN* thrust each (read the article i posted in the PAKFA sticky thread in Indian Defence section), and 2) J-20's airframe cross-sections are far bulkier and when j-20 maneuvers, the canards will have to move and this also increases drag. PAKFA's airframe is the most aerodynamic one ive seen thus far and you are wrong to say J-20's TWR will be higher than PAKFA, how exactly? J-20 for one weighs more than PAKFA, and secondly ido its engines have thrust more than 176kn?? that point is wrong. PAKFA has higher TWR than j-20 infact

you are also wrong to say j-10 is more agile than flanker. it isn't. thats just some purposely-created hogwash to promote indigenous j-10 against russian flankers. almost all mock combat missions in the world are so constructed to achieve the desired result, in such mock combat, F-35s managed to track and jam F-22's radar and go for the kill after blidning the raptor with jamming. but do you think its gonna be just as easy in real war? nope, thats a way to promote the open-export of f-35, becoz the f-22 is banned for export anyway.

same applies for j-10 v/s flanker. constructed mock combat.

The russians have decided to concentrate on maneuverabillity and performance first and get down to stealth-optimisation later. either way, the finished FGFA for IAF wil have everything there is to offer.

J-10's thrust-to-weight ratio is infact lesser than that of MIG-29, forget Flanker.

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## Gessler

SinoSoldier said:


> The J-31, for one, uses a F-22 style airframe consistent design, as well as DSI, platform alignemtn, all of which are lacking on both the F-35 and T-50. While both the J-31 and T-50 will incorporate AESA radar and 5th generation avionics, the T-50 will be at a disadvantage during a shootout due to its massive RCS; which means that the the only "S" that the J-31 might be lacking in is its thrust to weight ratio, but with the new WS-13G engines and composites, that won't be a problem.



J-31's airframe does not have complete surface continuity. There are massive gaps between the wings and the stabilisers in the rear. F-22 without DSI is still better than F-35 which has DSI.

FGFA will have the N-050 AESA with upto 2,000 T/R modules, it would be the most powerful fighter-based radar developed so far, in addition to wing-mounted L-band radars (which can detect VLO targets even F-22), and rear-looking radars for aft-area surveillance, its impossible to sneak upto PAKFA without alerting it.

same cannot be said in regard to J-31/20.

you'll see that in real combat, J-31 will be forced to carry external weapons which will increase 1) RCS , and 2) drag. But PAKFA with only internal weapons, can sustain the same RCS level (without increasing it) while at the same time, outgunning J-31 with *twice *the firepower.

If J-31 uses external weapons, its RCS will become comparable to that of EF Typhoon in clean load and PAKFA will find it easy to detect J-31 with its powerful radars, while at the other hand if J-31 sticks with internal weapons, it would be outgunned by PAKFA and will never be able to achieve air superiority in a given battlefield.

read the article i have posted in the previous page regarding china's engine developments. The WS-13 is not gonna be avaiable anytime soon while PAKFA's 176kN Type-30 engines will be ready 2014.

and btw, TW ratio does not account as an S

The S are -

stealth
supermaneuverability
supercruise
sensor-fusion
short-take off (later add-on)

PAKFA has all those Ss, except stealth which it has only fulfilled 50% only thus far.


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## Gessler

applesauce said:


> pakistan certainly has choice but chooses chinese jets and they do just fine, as do others like egypt which was firmly aligned with american yet bought chinese jets
> 
> 
> 
> j-10 never was meant to face f-35, such jobs falls on j-20/project 31
> 
> lol **checks the web site u list**
> 
> hahaha some fan boy made web site(of course u would use that as source lol) that makes all kinds of claims without backing anything up
> 
> quote "After a lot of reverse engineering and a few prototype crashes" end quote
> 
> haha not even gonna touch the LAVI clone claim, one of the things AVIC parades around is that j-10 development had no crashes but rumor persists for no reason but of course to you the fan boys word is law while the chinese only ever lie.
> 
> also half the supposed references on that site doesn't even work(or it links to an ad lol) the 2 that does only show basic info about the j-10 and mig-29(hurr durr we need reference that j-10 has 2 wings? lol) and in no way proves any of the lies fan boys like you posts



AVIC is a pathetic liar.

















China confirms death of pilot in J-10 crash

Col. Xie Fengliang died in J-10 crash

and here is AVIC trying to save its face -
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...gPwbmWNnZtysYaLHA&sig2=05GpLUq-dmqPLcy9o4P2Kw

Rest of your post is nonsense.


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## Gessler

SinoSoldier said:


> Funny thing is, the WS-10 is already ready. It's been in service with all of the J-11Bs.
> 
> If the J-10 is 40-45 years behind US's best fighters, then that implies that the J-10 would made its maiden flight on March 23, 2033. Oops, seems that your time machine didn't get the patent.



Then why is China still placing massive orders for AL-31FN engines from Russia?

Chinese AL-31F orders keep Russian engine maker busy



> China may now have ordered more than 250 AL31FNs for the J-10, which suggests that confidence in the indigenous WS10A turbofan to power the single-engine fighter might not be as high as previously indicated.



I dont mean literal time, I mean how many years behind the F-35 JSF's and F-22's tech the J-10 is.
The F-16 made its flight in late 70s. And J-10A is only comparable to that as yet. Maybe the F-16C Block-30
at most but nothing more than that.

and besides, J-10B is a non-production aircraft meant only for testing tech which would later go on
J-20/31. The J-10A is only J-10 version in active combat duty and all J-10A have only russian engines.



UKBengali said:


> ^^ I stopped reading after it said that the J-10s tech is 40-45 years behind the best US fighters.
> 
> So a F-4 can take on a J-10!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Please carry on entertaining us with your posts.



read my reply to sinosoldier. your brain seems to be the size of a half-peanut.


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## Viper0011.

gessler said:


> Reality is that no one, no one with a CHOICE at hand wants chinese jets.
> 
> 1. What if chinese engine is not ready? the AL-31FN is good, and even after WS-10 comes, its
> foolish to think t'll be more reliable than AL-31FN. JAS Gripen has US engine, and still its been exported
> to *6 countries *thus far.
> 
> 2. contraty to your beliefs, the J-10 WAS offered for sale to many countries, it even participated in
> a Myanmarese tender for new jets. but was rejected in favour of MiG-29, which the Burmese considered
> more capable, *despite* the fact that twin-engined mig-29 is costlier than single-engine j-10.
> 
> and Burma in itself is not a very rich country either.
> 
> Chinese J-10 suffers first overseas defeat to MiG-29 Fulcrum




Ok, you sound like a desperate person trying to make some point that's everything but clear. None of the stuff you are saying has facts on it. The 'article' you've given here, is poorly written with personal stuff in there that even a Sophomore in college of journalism wouldn't write as it shows bias towards Pakistan and China. 

Now, when you say 'FC-10 lost to Mig 29', it is contractual negotiations. Just like F-16 and F-18 lost to Rafale in India's case. Does that mean the F-16 and F-18 are 45 year old tech and the Rafale can fry them in a pan in broad day light??? F-16 and F-18 are one of the most combat proven systems out there. The answer is, India chose what IT thought was meeting its requirements. Its a package deal. The 'combat proven', the 'latest avionics' and the 'cost', etc are not separate consideration factors.

Similarly, whatever country you are referring to, did JUST that. Nowhere does it tell me that one plane was Inferior to the other in a fight or in capability. Mig 29 is a twin engine plane so it WILL lift more weapons and have more thrust to weight ratio and possibly a bigger radar....that's a given. But where does it say that FC-20 lost out because it was a cheaper, inferior plane capability wise and in a BVR and a Dog fight, it lost terribly to Mig 29. The Chinese have been running this plane against their SU-27's and Su-30's for over 5 years now. Pakistanis have flown their jets against it too and there have been constant modifications as a result...if it can handle SU-30....I would imagine it can handle a Mig 29. Please post FACTS. Not emotional and personal bias!!

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## Gessler

orangzaib said:


> Ok, you sound like a desperate person trying to make some point that's everything but clear. None of the stuff you are saying has facts on it. The 'article' you've given here, is poorly written with personal stuff in there that even a Sophomore in college of journalism wouldn't write as it shows bias towards Pakistan and China.
> 
> Now, when you say 'FC-10 lost to Mig 29', it is contractual negotiations. Just like F-16 and F-18 lost to Rafale in India's case. Does that mean the F-16 and F-18 are 45 year old tech and the Rafale can fry them in a pan in broad day light??? F-16 and F-18 are one of the most combat proven systems out there. The answer is, India chose what IT thought was meeting its requirements. Its a package deal. The 'combat proven', the 'latest avionics' and the 'cost', etc are not separate consideration factors.
> 
> Similarly, whatever country you are referring to, did JUST that. Nowhere does it tell me that one plane was Inferior to the other in a fight or in capability. Mig 29 is a twin engine plane so it WILL lift more weapons and have more thrust to weight ratio and possibly a bigger radar....that's a given. But where does it say that FC-20 lost out because it was a cheaper, inferior plane capability wise and in a BVR and a Dog fight, it lost terribly to Mig 29. The Chinese have been running this plane against their SU-27's and Su-30's for over 5 years now. Pakistanis have flown their jets against it too and there have been constant modifications as a result...if it can handle SU-30....I would imagine it can handle a Mig 29. Please post FACTS. Not emotional and personal bias!!



If the chinese so desire, they'll stage a mock combat exercise where J-10 will shoot down 100 F-22s
with no lossess of its own. and fanboys like you believe it like anything else.

I didn't say J-10 was 40-45 yr old tech, i said that J-10A was 40-45 yrs behind the F-35's and F-22's tech, if you
have any doubts regarding what i said, go back and read it all over again. case in point everyone
knows US tech is 20 yrs ahead of the rest of the world.

The f-22 raptor flew 15 yrs ago, at that time US had its own working AESA radar, they're own supercrusing
engines, and everything else. J-20 flew last year and only post-2015 will it get a working AESA and supercruising
engine. So technically china is running ~20 yrs behind US. And J-10A flew 14 yrs ago. At that time J-10A
was only comparable to F-16A which flew 38 yrs ago.

---

I said when a bangla member ranted that china refuses to sell j-10 due to fear of tech-leaks. then i said
that the tech offered by J-10A was 40 yrs behind the west, whilst saying J-10A is comparable to F-16A.

Chinese member said that if what i said was true, J-10 should have flown in 2033. But what he doesn't
realise is that IF j-10's tech is of today, then of what time does the tech of F-22 Raptor belong??

Im not comparing year-on-year, im comparing the technologies backwardness/advancement of jets
here. But the chinese member misunderstood me and said that 2033 thing. By his claim, J-10A is 15 years
ahead of F-22! How believable is that?

The US put on global market the F-35 many years ago and when will china be able to put the same
level of tech on the global market?

---

as of the myanmarese selection, they must have thought mig-29 is better than j-10 (a correct assessment)
and hence bought it. I never said j-10 can't handle mig-29. they are very comparable, but like i said above,
mig-29 can maneuever better than j-10, it also has higher TW ratio than j-10.

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## Viper0011.

gessler said:


> If the chinese so desire, they'll stage a mock combat exercise where J-10 will shoot down 100 F-22s
> with no lossess of its own. and fanboys like you believe it like anything else.
> 
> I didn't say J-10 was 40-45 yr old tech, i said that J-10A was 40-45 yrs behind the F-35's and F-22's tech, if you
> have any doubts regarding what i said, go back and read it all over again. case in point everyone
> knows US tech is 20 yrs ahead of the rest of the world.



You are doing the same thing again. Defending your biased points that are unverifiable. Let me give you some pieces of advise:
1: The FIRST few lines out of the whole story you wrote....shows everyone that you are biased from the beginning. Thus, the rest is invalid also.
2: Comparing to F-35 and F-22, even Rafale and EFT are about 2-3 decades old. Both of these European planes started the design in early 90's. And this is almost 2013. There is NO comparison between FC-20, Rafale, JFT, EFT, F-16 and then F-35 and F-22. Even J-20 and J-31 and PakFa DON'T have any comparison (with the exception of 'some' stealthy features). That's the reality.
Now the fact that Chinese will create mocked fights...are you crazy??? The Janes and other independent organizations don't buy pre-staged data. They EVALUATE the weapons system on many standard dimensions including flight evaluations. You sound silly saying this stuff. A country may make a decision to put their security in the hands of FC-20 or Rafale or SU-30....if the staged fights is what gets sold.....you just put your country's defense in the hands of everyone!!! Think how serious these things are before just putting crap like this out there. Whatever happened to quality discussions on this forums. I am seriously thinking about leaving here as the quality's just down the drain on almost every thread.

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## conworldus

What's up with the math? If the J-10A (roughly comparable to F-16 C/D) is 45 years behind F-22, which was inducted in 2005, then the US must have their similar aircraft, such as F-16C/D in service in 1960! No, the F-16 A/B entered service in 1978 and C/D in 1984, so the J-10A can only be behind F-22 tech by 21-27 years. 

2005 - 1978 = 27
2005 - 1984 = 21




gessler said:


> If the chinese so desire, they'll stage a mock combat exercise where J-10 will shoot down 100 F-22s
> with no lossess of its own. and fanboys like you believe it like anything else.
> 
> *I didn't say J-10 was 40-45 yr old tech, i said that J-10A was 40-45 yrs behind the F-35's and F-22's tech*, if you
> have any doubts regarding what i said, go back and read it all over again. case in point everyone
> knows US tech is 20 yrs ahead of the rest of the world.
> 
> The f-22 raptor flew 15 yrs ago, at that time US had its own working AESA radar, they're own supercrusing
> engines, and everything else. J-20 flew last year and only post-2015 will it get a working AESA and supercruising
> engine. So technically china is running ~20 yrs behind US.* And J-10A flew 14 yrs ago.* At that time J-10A
> was only comparable to F-16A which flew 38 yrs ago.
> 
> ---
> 
> I said when a bangla member ranted that china refuses to sell j-10 due to fear of tech-leaks. then i said
> that the tech offered by J-10A was 40 yrs behind the west, whilst saying J-10A is comparable to F-16A.
> 
> Chinese member said that if what i said was true, J-10 should have flown in 2033. But what he doesn't
> realise is that IF j-10's tech is of today, then of what time does the tech of F-22 Raptor belong??
> 
> Im not comparing year-on-year, im comparing the technologies backwardness/advancement of jets
> here. But the chinese member misunderstood me and said that 2033 thing. By his claim, J-10A is 15 years
> ahead of F-22! How believable is that?
> 
> The US put on global market the F-35 many years ago and when will china be able to put the same
> level of tech on the global market?
> 
> ---
> 
> as of the myanmarese selection, they must have thought mig-29 is better than j-10 (a correct assessment)
> and hence bought it. I never said j-10 can't handle mig-29. they are very comparable, but like i said above,
> mig-29 can maneuever better than j-10, it also has higher TW ratio than j-10.


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## 帅的一匹

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Oh boy, those Indians are really concerned about China's domestic engines.


They Mock china for everything India don't have either to prove we are at same level. Delusional ones.....they will keep pick china on what they could buy but china cant build in terms of world first class level. A nice way of motivation for china though....

At least what china have is Back door exempted.

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## Gessler

conworldus said:


> What's up with the math? If the J-10A (roughly comparable to F-16 C/D) is 45 years behind F-22, which was inducted in 2005, then the US must have their similar aircraft, such as F-16C/D in service in 1960! No, the F-16 A/B entered service in 1978 and C/D in 1984, so the J-10A can only be behind F-22 tech by 21-27 years.
> 
> 2005 - 1978 = 27
> 2005 - 1984 = 21



My friend, before F-16A, the Americans already had a defining 4th gen jet F-15 Eagle which flew in 1972.

The chinese equivalent to F-15 was the J-11A which also flew in 1998 only. And what I was saying is - The technology offered by the J-10A on the global market is only comparable to the tech demostrated by F-16A which flew almost 40 years with indigenous operational-level US engine.

J-10 flew in 1998 but when could it fly with indigenous engine as reliable as the US one? I've told people here i'm not comparing year-on-year but tech-on-tech a dozen times already. And "tech" means not just the airframe but the avionics, engines and their respective reliability as well.

Presently, the only "indigenous" chinese jet on offer to global buyers is the J-10 with AL-31FN engine. Look, even pakistan is trying to lobby hard in Russia for clearing the sale of AL-31 engines because the WS-10A is still not ready to power production-started single-engined aircraft, even if yes, then it still ain't reliable enough to please foreign buyers. If you'd follow the developments of PAF officers visiting Moscow in recent times, you would have known this.

While at the other hand, the best indigenous US jet on offer to global buyers is the F-35 JSF/Lightning-II. Which has the behemoth 191kN engine that is also indigenous, powerful AESA radar (which could jam even F-22's radar) and other advanced technology like EO-DAS and more. And the US put this plane in the sky some 6 years ago.

So if you consider F-35 JSF (export) and F-22 Raptor (non-export) as the benchmark of today...then J-10 is only comparable to the F-16A which flew some 38+ yrs ago. I said that J-10 was 40-45 yrs behind F-35/22 because even at the time of first flight, US had their own engine powering F-16 (or then even the YF-16 which flew in 1974), but still to this day, China does not have an indigenous engine reliable enough to fly an unproven airframe into the sky - thats why even J-20 has Saturn 117S engines and J-31 has RD-93 engines.


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## Gessler

orangzaib said:


> You are doing the same thing again. Defending your biased points that are unverifiable. Let me give you some pieces of advise:
> 1: The FIRST few lines out of the whole story you wrote....shows everyone that you are biased from the beginning. Thus, the rest is invalid also.
> 2: Comparing to F-35 and F-22, even Rafale and EFT are about 2-3 decades old. Both of these European planes started the design in early 90's. And this is almost 2013. There is NO comparison between FC-20, Rafale, JFT, EFT, F-16 and then F-35 and F-22. Even J-20 and J-31 and PakFa DON'T have any comparison (with the exception of 'some' stealthy features). That's the reality.
> Now the fact that Chinese will create mocked fights...are you crazy??? The Janes and other independent organizations don't buy pre-staged data. They EVALUATE the weapons system on many standard dimensions including flight evaluations. You sound silly saying this stuff. A country may make a decision to put their security in the hands of FC-20 or Rafale or SU-30....if the staged fights is what gets sold.....you just put your country's defense in the hands of everyone!!! Think how serious these things are before just putting crap like this out there. Whatever happened to quality discussions on this forums. I am seriously thinking about leaving here as the quality's just down the drain on almost every thread.



read my reply to conworldus. and reply back only after you've understood precisely what i said.


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## Viper0011.

gessler said:


> My friend, before F-16A, the Americans already had a defining 4th gen jet F-15 Eagle which flew in 1972.
> 
> The chinese equivalent to F-15 was the J-11A which also flew in 1998 only. And what I was saying is - The technology offered by the J-10A on the global market is only comparable to the tech demostrated by F-16A which flew almost 40 years with indigenous operational-level US engine.
> 
> J-10 flew in 1998 but when could it fly with indigenous engine as reliable as the US one? I've told people here i'm not comparing year-on-year but tech-on-tech a dozen times already. And "tech" means not just the airframe but the avionics, engines and their respective reliability as well.
> 
> Presently, the only "indigenous" chinese jet on offer to global buyers is the J-10 with AL-31FN engine. Look, even pakistan is trying to lobby hard in Russia for clearing the sale of AL-31 engines because the WS-10A is still not ready to power production-started single-engined aircraft, even if yes, then it still ain't reliable enough to please foreign buyers. If you'd follow the developments of PAF officers visiting Moscow in recent times, you would have known this.
> 
> While at the other hand, the best indigenous US jet on offer to global buyers is the F-35 JSF/Lightning-II. Which has the behemoth 191kN engine that is also indigenous, powerful AESA radar (which could jam even F-22's radar) and other advanced technology like EO-DAS and more. And the US put this plane in the sky some 6 years ago.
> 
> So if you consider F-35 JSF (export) and F-22 Raptor (non-export) as the benchmark of today...then J-10 is only comparable to the F-16A which flew some 38+ yrs ago. I said that J-10 was 40-45 yrs behind F-35/22 because even at the time of first flight, US had their own engine powering F-16 (or then even the YF-16 which flew in 1974), but still to this day, China does not have an indigenous engine reliable enough to fly an unproven airframe into the sky - thats why even J-20 has Saturn 117S engines and J-31 has RD-93 engines.



What is your point??? No one is taking the FC-20 to fight against the F-22 or F-35......your Su-30, Rafale, PakFa are ALL based on similar technologies that make up all other lines of 4th generation fighter jets behind the F-22 and F-35. I am failing to understand your point.....If FC-20 uses the Russian engines, etc, etc....but it provides capabilities similar to Rafale or a notch below......how does that involve the F-22 and F-35 in the discussion? Totally different class and types and technologies....????
Again... what the hell's your points? If the whole point (coming from your previous posts also) is the 'China is 40 years behind'...you are mistaken. Even the US think tanks and Pentagon thinks China is about 10-15 years behind but catching up very rapidly and this is PRIMARILY with regards to F-22 and F-35. I think it is understood that their FC-20 and J11, 16's are already 80 % equivalent to the American counterparts. And NO, the F-16, F-15, etc, etc are not the SAME planes introduced in 1970's. They may have kept the same body as the airframe was tested and proved one of the most agile and best ones. But the capability has been entirely upgraded to the 4th generation tech of mid 90's 9long range bvr's, sat communication, data links, radars, ew, drfm, etc, etc).

Again, I fail to understand what is your main point? Can you quit going round and round in circles and JUST summarize in three lines and simple English for us?

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## Rajput_Pakistani

orangzaib said:


> What is your point??? No one is taking the FC-20 to fight against the F-22 or F-35......your Su-30, Rafale, PakFa are ALL based on similar technologies that make up all other lines of 4th generation fighter jets behind the F-22 and F-35. I am failing to understand your point.....If FC-20 uses the Russian engines, etc, etc....but it provides capabilities similar to Rafale or a notch below......how does that involve the F-22 and F-35 in the discussion? Totally different class and types and technologies....????
> Again... what the hell's your points? If the whole point (coming from your previous posts also) is the 'China is 40 years behind'...you are mistaken. Even the US think tanks and Pentagon thinks China is about 10-15 years behind but catching up very rapidly and this is PRIMARILY with regards to F-22 and F-35. I think it is understood that their FC-20 and J11, 16's are already 80 % equivalent to the American counterparts. And NO, the F-16, F-15, etc, etc are not the SAME planes introduced in 1970's. They may have kept the same body as the airframe was tested and proved one of the most agile and best ones. But the capability has been entirely upgraded to the 4th generation tech of mid 90's 9long range bvr's, sat communication, data links, radars, ew, drfm, etc, etc).
> 
> Again, I fail to understand what is your main point? Can you quit going round and round in circles and JUST summarize in three lines and simple English for us?



Orangzaib dear, why are you debating with someone who seem to have no knowledge about anything. He is just trying to debate with ridiculous logic of his own. First he tried to compare J-31 with something which is still on papers. Then he is trying to prove J-10 as 40 years old technology. He has no idea of avionics or everything. A 1972's F-15 and today's f-15 or J-10 of 1998 and J-10 of 2012.... comparing apple with oranges without any knowledge base.


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## Gessler

orangzaib said:


> What is your point??? No one is taking the FC-20 to fight against the F-22 or F-35......your Su-30, Rafale, PakFa are ALL based on similar technologies that make up all other lines of 4th generation fighter jets behind the F-22 and F-35. I am failing to understand your point.....If FC-20 uses the Russian engines, etc, etc....but it provides capabilities similar to Rafale or a notch below......how does that involve the F-22 and F-35 in the discussion? Totally different class and types and technologies....????
> Again... what the hell's your points? If the whole point (coming from your previous posts also) is the 'China is 40 years behind'...you are mistaken. Even the US think tanks and Pentagon thinks China is about 10-15 years behind but catching up very rapidly and this is PRIMARILY with regards to F-22 and F-35. I think it is understood that their FC-20 and J11, 16's are already 80 % equivalent to the American counterparts. And NO, the F-16, F-15, etc, etc are not the SAME planes introduced in 1970's. They may have kept the same body as the airframe was tested and proved one of the most agile and best ones. But the capability has been entirely upgraded to the 4th generation tech of mid 90's 9long range bvr's, sat communication, data links, radars, ew, drfm, etc, etc).
> 
> Again, I fail to understand what is your main point? Can you quit going round and round in circles and JUST summarize in three lines and simple English for us?



In simple english for simple brains like you - Im comparing the level of indigenousation and tech offered by J-10 from a single national vendor (china) to the same from US on the global market.

I have repeatedly said Im comparing the tech china has for export (J-10) to what US has for export (F-35), the debate started given a bangla's comment that china refuses to sell planes becoz of fearing technology leaks. And I pointed out how far behind the chinese export plane's tech is compared to what the US is offering for international buyers.

The conclusion of that point was that the No.1 reason for chinese J-10 not gaining a single export customer as yet in a competitive selection process was not becoz of fearing tech leaks or anything, it was coz the export customers in question had better products on offer and went ahead with them. Chinese planes have many years to go before gaining orders is a selection process like M-MRCA etc.

And then you entered the thread and spoilt things.



Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Orangzaib dear, why are you debating with someone who seem to have no knowledge about anything. He is just trying to debate with ridiculous logic of his own. First he tried to compare J-31 with something which is still on papers. Then he is trying to prove J-10 as 40 years old technology. He has no idea of avionics or everything. A 1972's F-15 and today's f-15 or J-10 of 1998 and J-10 of 2012.... comparing apple with oranges without any knowledge base.



If you have any knowledge base, just reply to my points regarding PAKFA v/s J-31 since the beginning
instead of commenting to fellow members to comfort them.


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## Zabaniyah

Icewolf said:


> ^^ PAK-FA is not even stealth, the Russians used Indians for money... Look at the backside of PAK-FA hahahaha...



If I am not mistaken, the PAK-FA and FGFA are two different programs.


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## Viper0011.

gessler said:


> In simple english for simple brains like you - Im comparing the level of indigenousation and tech offered by J-10 from a single national vendor (china) to the same from US on the global market.
> 
> I have repeatedly said Im comparing the tech china has for export (J-10) to what US has for export (F-35). The conclusion of that point was that the No.1 reason for Chinese J-10 not gaining a single export customer as yet in a competitive selection process was not becoz of fearing tech leaks or anything, it was coz the export customers in question had better products on offer and went ahead with them.



This is one of the most moron-ish discussions one can get into. Anyway, my last post and a bit of a reality check. One comparing J-10 to F-35....is stupid to say the least. The US aviation industry has been evolving since the WWI. So an industry that has pioneered the flight technology to a country that's becoming a bigger power now....is silly. 
SECOND AND THE MOST IMPORTANT: China, Russia, the UK or ANYONE else on the planet doesn't, can't and won't match the US technology for at least the next one or two decades. It sounds arrogant but its a reality check. J-20, PakFa, FgFa, Rafale or anything...doesn't match the F-22 or the F-35. That's a fact and it'll remain as such. Sure, within the next 10 years or so, the Chinese aviation industry will come ways ahead but still...there will be differences. The US military industrial complex has preserved itself at the top stop in the worse financial crisis and yet kept advancing.
Now, once the above is settled in your mind that the US and Chinese top line jets (F-22 and F-35 vs. J-10) have no comparison and that the US will always be more advanced..... let's move on:
Within the next decade however, from the signs of it, China will take over as the second largest and most advanced aviation industry / jet producer. From their designs and advancement, it is clear that they are becoming rapidly indifferent than the Russians. Russians never let go of their old designs and 'quantity' instead of gaining quality in military warfare. China, since the year 2000 has gotten away from it. 
The fact that China is working on three different Stealth programs, advanced twin engine jets, jet engines, BVR's, Ramjet and Hypersonic technologies (some even in infancy), etc, etc, tells us that they are no longer believing in quantity of crappy equipment (i.e. 2000 mig 21's (F-7's and A-5's) around their coastline). 
Now technology is what they are hungry for and they will definitely see success. But note, that the modern air warfare industry in the US really took off after the lessons learned from the Vietnam war. But the Chinese industry really took off around 2000 when they started to test the J-10A. 
So you are comparing almost 35 years of work (Vietnam all the way to 2000, when the F-22 was in designs) to 12 years (2000 - J-10's testing till today, 2012). That's a pretty stupid analysis.
But there is a point, within the 12 years of modernization, the Chinese are now working on stuff that the US got to work after 30 - 40 years of R&D and constant upgrades to its jets, engines, avionics, etc. The pioneers always bear the most cost and pain. 
The first guy who invents the wheel pays the most in R&D and feels the most pain and THUS, makes the most money. The pioneer's BRAND is well known and established and everyone wants it. 
The second and the third person is and will always remain at no: 2 or 3 spot. They may have better products but still....they weren't the pioneers. But they do make money. Similarly, the prioneer is the US and will remain the US. The next number two's and three's are Russia and the Chinese going forward. China will take the number 2 spot. Previously, there were the French, the Israelis, the UK, etc too. But these are much smaller markets. Also, Chinese needs are so massive that for the next decade or so, they can just build and replace their old jets. They don't need to find export customers right this second. But that's just a matter of WHEN not IF.


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## jhungary

a point from the third party, in some sense, both 2 guys are right, but in some sense, both you guys are wrong.

J-10 is what China did (*PAST TENSE*) to what American did 40 years ago. Which is a 4th Gen Jet.

The problem is while J-10 is what America did 40 years ago (taking from the point now), it does not represent the Chinese aviation is 40 years behind the United States. Chinese Growth is not linear. They are exponential growth with a rate any country in this world cannot even compare (Not even United States) the fact is, US spend 26 years (First flight to First Flight) to migrate from 4th to 5th gen (F-15 to F-22), but the Chinese only take 13 years (First flight to First flight from J-10 to J-20) you see the different now?

China was 26 years behind US in 1998 (When J-10 first flight), now they are roughtly 15 years behind (compare first flight from J-20 to F-22), generation wise.

As for the quality, i guess no one can say anything solid until the actual finish product is shown

America will still lead the game into 6th Gen, but the game will be starting to get even in 8th Gen if not the 7th, if you look at the growth of China, you can see they cut half what the America did, it will be quite even in 7th gen development and may even surpass the US in 8th Gen aircraft, which is about 40 years from now.


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## Gessler

jhungary said:


> a point from the third party, in some sense, both 2 guys are right, but in some sense, both you guys are wrong.
> 
> J-10 is what China did (*PAST TENSE*) to what American did 40 years ago. Which is a 4th Gen Jet.
> 
> The problem is while J-10 is what America did 40 years ago (taking from the point now), it does not represent the Chinese aviation is 40 years behind the United States. Chinese Growth is not linear. They are exponential growth with a rate any country in this world cannot even compare (Not even United States) the fact is, US spend 26 years (First flight to First Flight) to migrate from 4th to 5th gen (F-15 to F-22), but the Chinese only take 13 years (First flight to First flight from J-10 to J-20) you see the different now?
> 
> China was 26 years behind US in 1998 (When J-10 first flight), now they are roughtly 15 years behind (compare first flight from J-20 to F-22), generation wise.
> 
> As for the quality, i guess no one can say anything solid until the actual finish product is shown
> 
> America will still lead the game into 6th Gen, but the game will be starting to get even in 8th Gen if not the 7th, if you look at the growth of China, you can see they cut half what the America did, it will be quite even in 7th gen development and may even surpass the US in 8th Gen aircraft, which is about 40 years from now.



I have told people here that Im not comparing industries, Im comparing the level of technology put on the
global buyer market by chinese j-10, and it compares against the US F-35 at the international front. This
was In reply to a bangla member who said china fears tech leaks and thats why doesn't want to sell planes.

Comparing plane's debut flights is not enough either, what about engines? radars? sensor-fusion, etc.

*My point was that at the international market, Chinese J-10 is ~40 yrs behind the level of tech offered by
the F-35, which is considered as the benchmark of "today" at the global market.*

At the overall industrial development, you are right China is around 20 yrs behind US only.


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## UKBengali

@Geesler - So you really think that the US had a fighter with avionics and missiles comparable to the J-10 in 1972?

Yes. Engine-wise China is probably about 30 years behind US and China has a realistic plan to cut this to around 15-20 years by the end of this decade, but in terms of airframes and avionics they are only around 10-20 years behind.


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## hk299792458

You both make me smile, just not to say laught... 10, 20, 30, 40 years behind or below, this aircraft is that or that stealthy just by the human eyes, TWR higher so it is more advanced...etc. 

I just wonder how you guys come up with this kind of none sense conclusion, just because you've read too much magazines?

There is no the most advanced aircraft, there is only the most suitable aircraft and everything around to make it work for a country. Saying this or this aircrfat is xxx years behind one other has absolutly no sense. Giving, come on, ten F-22 to China or India or Pakistan or any other country than the USA, they will never have the same level of performance as in the hand of americans.

The same thing will happen again if Pakistan purchases J-10, or the future Rafale for IAF.

And just taking about Rafale, I remember that a german F-4F "_shot down_" several times french Rafale in Frisian Flag exercice, and so there is a "_Rafale eater_" painting on the F-4 since that date.

Now, tell me, my theoreticians, F-4 is how many years behind a Rafale? If we count the maiden flight date, one in 1958, another in 1986, so 28 years behind? If we count the IOC date, F-4 in 1960, Rafale in 2001, 31 years behind? And what about the systems updates? Which version compared to which version? On which basis?

Is that the way you compare?

Just take a simple example - A product has 2 sub-assemblies, one is designed in 2000 and another one in 2001, the whole product rolled out in 2002. Now an another company proposes a same product with exactly the same performance to the market in 2004, one of the sub assemblies is designed in 1998 and the other one in 2003. So, how many years behind? How to compare? On which basis?

And now, what else? Bushing for bushing?

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## ice bomb

gessler said:


> I have told people here that Im not comparing industries, Im comparing the level of technology put on the
> global buyer market by chinese j-10, and it compares against the US F-35 at the international front. This
> was In reply to a bangla member who said china fears tech leaks and thats why doesn't want to sell planes.
> 
> Comparing plane's debut flights is not enough either, what about engines? radars? sensor-fusion, etc.
> 
> *My point was that at the international market, Chinese J-10 is ~40 yrs behind the level of tech offered by
> the F-35, which is considered as the benchmark of "today" at the global market.*
> 
> At the overall industrial development, you are right China is around 20 yrs behind US only.



A moot point. There are different customers with different requirements. China is not offering J-10s( hell did they offer J10 at all as of now?) to the same countries who are buying F-35s. Why will you buy a 4 gen fighter if you can afford 5 gen? 

I am amazed(not) that you dont see the logical fallacy here. Recharge your brain before you post again.


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## Gessler

ice bomb said:


> A moot point. There are different customers with different requirements. China is not offering J-10s( hell did they offer J10 at all as of now?) to the same countries who are buying F-35s. Why will you buy a 4 gen fighter if you can afford 5 gen?
> 
> I am amazed(not) that you dont see the logical fallacy here. Recharge your brain before you post again.



Yes J-10 was offered in a competitve bidding v/s MiG-29 to Myanmar Air Force. Which chose the MiG.

Moot point? Alright so why exactly does china need to fear technology leaks when US F-35 which is many
years ahead of J-10 is already there at the global market? Answer that question instead of ranting.


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## zzzz

orangzaib said:


> SECOND AND THE MOST IMPORTANT: China, Russia, US, the UK or ANYONE else on the planet doesn't, can't and won't match the US technology for at least the next one or two decades. It sounds arrogant but its a reality check. J-20, PakFa, FgFa, Rafale or anything...doesn't match the F-22 or the F-35.



Reality check

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## Esc8781

zzzz said:


> Reality check


Oh noooooooo don't strike us with APA  Carlo Kopp.


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## Gessler

zzzz said:


> Reality check



Actually J-20 does not have supercruise as yet.


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## jhungary

gessler said:


> I have told people here that Im not comparing industries, Im comparing the level of technology put on the
> global buyer market by chinese j-10, and it compares against the US F-35 at the international front. This
> was In reply to a bangla member who said china fears tech leaks and thats why doesn't want to sell planes.
> 
> Comparing plane's debut flights is not enough either, what about engines? radars? sensor-fusion, etc.
> 
> *My point was that at the international market, Chinese J-10 is ~40 yrs behind the level of tech offered by
> the F-35, which is considered as the benchmark of "today" at the global market.*
> 
> At the overall industrial development, you are right China is around 20 yrs behind US only.



I was saying, you are right, J-10, when it first rolled out of the assembly line in 1998 is 40 years tech as of Today. (It was about 26 years behind the US at that point in 1998).

The problem is, they have been upgrade and upgrade the J-10's technology when they have the technology and ntheir industry to support it, the J-10 fresh rolled out of the assembly line *now* is *NOT* the same J-10 rolled out of assembly line 20 odd years ago. That's what organzaib and the other trying to tell you about. So a J-10 Now is about 26 years behind any new tech coming out of a US Assembly line. Even a F-16 rolled out of assembly line now is not the same F-16 they were in 1976. YOu would expect changes in J-10 over the period of 14 years. And the changes is gonna be huge

The frame itself maybe the same, but the content is different now. It would be stupid for the Chinese to keep installing old hardware and software when they can install new stuff for almost the same price.


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## Viper0011.

gessler said:


> My point was that at the international market, Chinese J-10 is ~40 yrs behind the level of tech offered by the F-35, which is considered as the benchmark of "today" at the global market



Ok, so if I understand it right, you just want people to agree with you, whether or not your post makes ANY sense. So if I was to refine your statement....then what I will say is, the following jets represent the different in the US's provided 'current' standards vs. the older platforms that US was working on like 40 years ago. The list includes:

1) J-10 (older design with newer avionics, sensor fusion, EW-EM-ELINT)
2) Rafale, EFT (older design with newer avionics, sensor fusion, EW-EM-ELINT)
3) Mirage 2000-5, N, Mig 29-SM series (older design with newer avionics, sensor fusion, EW-EM-ELINT)
3) SU-27, Su-30, J11, J-16 (older design with newer avionics, sensor fusion, EW-EM-ELINT)

So in theories....all these came out as designs from 90's. So what you are saying is, the rest of the world is BEHIND the current standards compared to the US? EXACTLY my point from my post. THANK YOU. Let's stop playing junior high school. You can still tell on me to your dad and to the teacher. That's perfectly ok. I am used to being the bad boy!


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## Gessler

Id be more happy if you (or any other members) can provide me the info about what systems
in the J-10 have changed thus far?

I agree J-10 of 1998 is not as the same as that of today, but still back in 1970s US flew F-16s
with their own engines and own design studies. The WS-10 is still not ready to power the production
variant single engine J-10 for active combat duties.


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## 帅的一匹

We are talking about J10B here.........a 4.5 gen fighter


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## 帅的一匹

AVIC disclosed that J31 has combat Radius of 1250KM without carrying tankers, which is better than F35.


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## 帅的一匹

Anyone think 5 gen fighters is simply copied and pasted stuff, then he is a flat out fool. Hack into Pentegon system is not that easy described in American movie. This world is insane!!@Don't live in self-delusion anymore!


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## S10

Donatello said:


> Why are hardpoints under the wing and not concealed?


When low observability is not needed, the plane can fit external hardpoints for more payload.


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## 帅的一匹

S10 said:


> When low observability is not needed, the plane can fit external hardpoints for more payload.


Just like F35.







S10 said:


> When low observability is not needed, the plane can fit external hardpoints for more payload.


@to S10: My friend, don't reply to those retard, their question is ill-intended.


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## ice bomb

gessler said:


> Yes J-10 was offered in a competitve bidding v/s MiG-29 to Myanmar Air Force. Which chose the MiG.
> 
> Moot point? Alright so why exactly does china need to fear technology leaks when US F-35 which is many
> years ahead of J-10 is already there at the global market? Answer that question instead of ranting.



You are contradicting yourself. You claimed that China dont offer J-10 based on fears of tech leaks. then you claimed that China offered J-10 to Myanmar. 

Please make up your mind first.

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## UKBengali

gessler said:


> Id be more happy if you (or any other members) can provide me the info about what systems
> in the J-10 have changed thus far?
> 
> I agree J-10 of 1998 is not as the same as that of today, but still back in 1970s US flew F-16s
> with their own engines and own design studies. The WS-10 is still not ready to power the production
> variant single engine J-10 for active combat duties.



You are being way too simplistic.

The WS-10A generates around 30,000lbs of thrust.

When the F-16 came out in the 1970s it had only around 24,000lbs of thrust.

The WS-10A that was put into producion J-11Bs in 2010 has a much higher T/W ratio than the F-16 engine in the 1970s.

The F-16 only got a comparable engine to the Ws-10A around 1990.

That is a differnce of around 20 years.

The only reason that WS-10As are not powering J-10s in mass is that the Chinese are using their around 100 produced WS-10As a year to power J-11s/J-15s and J-16s. As production is limited you simply have to make a choice. It may take another year or two before China can produce this engine in the hundreds to satisfy it's demand.

If the option to purchase AL-31s was not available to China then all J-10s after around 2010 would be using WS-10A.

The US in the mid-1970s had not choice but to use their own engines to power their own fighters as there was no alternative supplier country available.


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## Gessler

ice bomb said:


> You are contradicting yourself. You claimed that China dont offer J-10 based on fears of tech leaks. then you claimed that China offered J-10 to Myanmar.
> 
> Please make up your mind first.



 You got what in your mind bro?

*I* said china fears tech leaks ?? I was *asking* why china needs to fear tech leaks when
much superior tech is being offered by US on the global market?


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## Gessler

UKBengali said:


> You are being way too simplistic.
> 
> The WS-10A generates around 30,000lbs of thrust.
> 
> When the F-16 came out in the 1970s it had only around 24,000lbs of thrust.
> 
> The WS-10A that was put into producion J-11Bs in 2010 has a much higher T/W ratio than the F-16 engine in the 1970s.
> 
> The F-16 only got a comparable engine to the Ws-10A around 1990.
> 
> That is a differnce of around 20 years.
> 
> The only reason that WS-10As are not powering J-10s in mass is that the Chinese are using their around 100 produced WS-10As a year to power J-11s/J-15s and J-16s. As production is limited you simply have to make a choice. It may take another year or two before China can produce this engine in the hundreds to satisfy it's demand.
> 
> If the option to purchase AL-31s was not available to China then all J-10s after around 2010 would be using WS-10A.
> 
> The US in the mid-1970s had not choice but to use their own engines to power their own fighters as there was no alternative supplier country available.



Regardless of the thrust generation, the US engine was competitive and provided good self-suficiency for the LWF programem.

Production-rate is never a problem in china, the J-10B does not make any combat maneuvers, neither is it meant to engage in combat, its a testbed aircraft where tech originally meant for J-20 was tried out. For such a low-danger use, maybe WS-10A may have been suficient.

But China still continues to place massive orders (in 100s) for Russian AL-31FN engines for J-10A inspite of having this "indigenous" engine at hand. J-11B, J-15 are twin-engined aircraft, where even a crappy engine like RD-93 can become a hero.

How many J-11Bs have been built? How many are inducted with WS-10A and how many are currently deployed? How many years away from operationalisation is the J-15?

---

It doesn't make any sense either for China to buy 100s of Russian engines off-the-sheld (yes,Russia denied to give ToT or even set up an MRO facility for AL-31FN in china) while they claim indigenous WS-10A is so capable. The AL-31s were ordered in batches, if WS-10A was as reliable as you make it out to be, china could have stopped the AL31 purchase after the 1st batch was over at least. But no, purchases continue.


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## Esc8781

Estimated cut out.

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## JSCh

There are several reasons that I have seen given for why China still purchase a sizable amount of AL-31f/fn.
1. Trade balance with Russian
2. Limited WS-10A production-rate.
3. Price of AL-31 is quite affordable
4. Too much of a hassle in terms of cost and time to modify old airframe of J-10A and J-11A to fit WS-10A. 
There was only one early J-11B prototype that was seen with both AL-31F and WS-10A. After that all J-11B are seen with WS-10A.
WS-10A and AL-31 are completely different engine, the size(diameter) are not the same. Nobody can even confirm that it is possible to change J-10A or J-11A to fit WS-10A. Because to do that, airframe structure need to be changed (possible?), inlet need to be changed, new flight control software need to be re-written, and the whole test process needs to be walked through all over again. By the time the changes that need to be done are completed, most of these airframe would have reach or near their service lifetime.
If the J-10A and J-11A is doing fine, and the price of AL-31 is reasonable, why fix a good thing?
Since all the production J-11B and prototype J-10B, J-15 and J-16 are all seen with WS-10A, one would conclude that China is reserving the limited WS-10A production for new aircraft only.
Whether the number of AL-31 bought reflects on the reliability of WS-10A is debatable. All we know is, J-10B and J-15 prototype is seen with both engines. And all J-11B are seen with WS-10A and their number is reported to be in the hundreds.

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## SBD-3

There was quite a lot of discussion at the model of a stealth platform at Zhuhai 2012. While Jane's reporter has hinted project 310, the AVIC people have still reported the aircraft to be "under development" and not hinted any relationship to project 310. We have also seen that 310-01 doesn't carry AVIC insignia. Yet, may it be the secondary project rumored to be under development at CAC?

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## applesauce

gessler said:


> AVIC is a pathetic liar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China confirms death of pilot in J-10 crash
> 
> Col. Xie Fengliang died in J-10 crash
> 
> and here is AVIC trying to save its face -
> http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...gPwbmWNnZtysYaLHA&sig2=05GpLUq-dmqPLcy9o4P2Kw
> 
> Rest of your post is nonsense.



no sir, you are a pathetic liar, or you are illiterate, maybe both

the claim is that there were several prototype crashes, there was not a single prototype crash, the crash you listed was after j-10 had been active int the PLA for nearly 10 years, name me one military plane numbering in the hundreds and flys regularly that has not had a single crash over a span of nearly 10 years.

and apparently me calling out that the site listed has no sources is full of wrong info is non-sense now? of course anything against your fantasies is non-sense

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## Beast

Wah! We have an Indian members trying to bring down china WS-10A while their Kaveri engine can't even step out of ts test bed yet , then this guy will say becos Indian goes for higher spec of new version of Kaveri engine with 95kn of thrust which is more superior than M88 of France at 74kn. That means what? India which never produced a modern turbofan and will try to debut it first operational turbofan surpassing even the rank of France with its first attempt.

Can you believe this kind of unrealistic and daydream target?

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## Gessler

applesauce said:


> no sir, you are a pathetic liar, or you are illiterate, maybe both
> 
> the claim is that there were several prototype crashes, there was not a single prototype crash, the crash you listed was after j-10 had been active int the PLA for nearly 10 years, name me one military plane numbering in the hundreds and flys regularly that has not had a single crash over a span of nearly 10 years.
> 
> and apparently me calling out that the site listed has no sources is full of wrong info is non-sense now? of course anything against your fantasies is non-sense



The very first J-10 prototype that flew in 1998 crashed, period. A design flaw in the
FBW system was said to be the fault.

And im not lying about anothing, go ask Xie Fengliang's famiy how he died.

Even if there were 10 crashes or more, it would very difficult to bring them out to public media
because china govt. tries its best to hide them, same was tried out in 2007 and 2010 crashes as
well but the news trickled out, the Colonel's funeral was also exposed.


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## hk299792458

gessler said:


> *The very first J-10 prototype that flew in 1998 crashed*, period. A design flaw in the
> FBW system was said to be the fault.
> 
> And im not lying about anothing, go ask Xie Fengliang's famiy how he died.
> 
> Even if there were 10 crashes or more, it would very difficult to bring them out to public media
> because china govt. tries its best to hide them, same was tried out in 2007 and 2010 crashes as
> well but the news trickled out, the Colonel's funeral was also exposed.



Totally false.

The picture you had quoted is a operational one, in 2007 or 2009 if I'm not wrong.

The total crash number of J-10/J-10A/J-10S is 6 out of 248 put into service so far.

During the test flight period no any J-10 had crashed, and for sure not the first prototype.

I strongly advise you not try to prove your trolling theory with wrong figures, it will not help...

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## Gessler

hk299792458 said:


> Totally false.
> 
> The picture you had quoted is a operational one, in 2007 or 2009 if I'm not wrong.



Im not talking about the one in the picture, Im talking in general. There was a J-10 crash in 1998
same year when J-10 first flew. I had a couple of links saved up but unfortunatley all have been
removed and none are working now, otherwise I wouldn't posted them here in my earlier posts.



> The total crash number of J-10/J-10A/J-10S is 6 out of 248 put into service so far.



I thought there were only 4 crashes. Would be glad if you can provide me links for the other 2.

The crash rate is not very high but stll look at the other jets in the area - Su-30MKI had 3 crashes (1 pilot
error) among ~200 inducted thus far and has been serving for a little under 11 years in IAF.


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## Beast

gessler said:


> Im not talking about the one in the picture, Im talking in general. There was a J-10 crash in 1998
> same year when J-10 first flew. I had a couple of links saved up but unfortunatley all have been
> removed and none are working now, otherwise I wouldn't posted them here in my earlier posts.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought there were only 4 crashes. Would be glad if you can provide me links for the other 2.
> 
> The crash rate is not very high but stll look at the other jets in the area - Su-30MKI had 3 crashes (1 pilot
> error) among ~200 inducted thus far and has been serving for a little under 11 years in IAF.



You talk who confirm? The sources you post are mostly bogus and write by anti china critics. Same like those who wrote liaoning CV has not arrestor hook when commission and no air wing confirm by Russian sources or what... And great publicised by Indian.


----------



## sweetgrape

Beast said:


> You talk who confirm? The sources you post are mostly bogus and write by anti china critics. Same like those who wrote liaoning CV has not arrestor hook when commission and no air wing confirm by Russian sources or what... And great publicised by Indian.



He had said, the link he saved up(he have prepared something, hehe,) is unavailable, don't know why he did not save some famous website(Can't find the similar news?), but chose some small website, and if you read his comments, most are his thought, but require other offer source, do even that guy can send some source, but many are bogus or unknown, very interesting thing.

Not news itself problem, but the question that what's his attitude to China, I a little miss "timetravel", don't read his very interesting comment about china for a long time, hehe.


----------



## hk299792458

gessler said:


> Im not talking about the one in the picture, Im talking in general. There was a J-10 crash in 1998
> same year when J-10 first flew. I had a couple of links saved up but unfortunatley all have been
> removed and none are working now, otherwise I wouldn't posted them here in my earlier posts.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought there were only 4 crashes. Would be glad if you can provide me links for the other 2.
> 
> The crash rate is not very high but stll look at the other jets in the area - Su-30MKI had 3 crashes (1 pilot
> error) among ~200 inducted thus far and has been serving for a little under 11 years in IAF.



The right and common way to assess aircraft reliability in military area is "_How many incident (depends on classification) per 10 0000 flight hours_".

Simply discuss how many aircrafts have crashed in how many year make absolutly no sense. Imagine you have 10 aircrafts, no one flies during 10 years, your air safety record is 100% but does it make sense?

I don't know the exact figure for escadrons of J-10 from PLAAF and PLAN, but I roughly heard that the key escadrons have more than 250 flight hours per pilot.

And the rumour saying that a J-10 crashed in 1998 was a fake. If I remember well, this rumour said that the prototype 03 crashed because of FBW issue. However, J-10-03 rolled out only in 1999 if not later.

Sometime when you read a news, before stating that it is a truth, try to have your own analysis, it will be better...

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## giant panda



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## giant panda

J-31 Gyrfalcon 5th Generation fighter Jet model

ä¸*èªå·¥ä¸ç¬¬äºä»£æææºæ¨¡åäº®ç¸ J-31 Gyrfalcon 5th Generation fighter Jet model - YouTube

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## giant panda




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## giant panda




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## giant panda



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## Pakistanisage

Does any member here know the proposed price tag of a J-31 fighter ?


----------



## Zabaniyah

gessler said:


> Yes J-10 was offered in a competitve bidding v/s MiG-29 to Myanmar Air Force. Which chose the MiG.



The J-10 is inferior to the MiG-29SE variant which Myanmar has?
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/myanmar-to-receive-new-batch-of-mig-29s-from-march-353771/ 

It never happened anyways. And came from unreliable sources. 
Russian MiG-29 Jets 'Attack' China in Myanmar - English pravda.ru


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## nitetrogen70

cant wait to see the pakistani flag on one of these 
p.s. the talks have probably been already going on for a while i bet

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## nitetrogen70

pakistan will be the first country after china to get its hand on the gold  can't wait to see it in pakistani flag

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## Kompromat



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## conworldus

nitetrogen70 said:


> pakistan will be the first country after china to get its hand on the gold  can't wait to see it in pakistani flag



This will be Shenyang's first sell to Pakistan I think.

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## TaimiKhan

conworldus said:


> This will be Shenyang's first sell to Pakistan I think.



SAC J-5 & J-6 served with PAF, it won't be the first sale

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## DANGER-ZONE

Why so confirmed ! for J-31 sale to Pakistan... Why ?


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## Su-11

Loki said:


> I*t never happened anyways. And came from unreliable sources. *



Myanmar to buy 20 MiG-29 fighters for $570 mln - paper | Business | RIA Novosti
_Russian bid to supply MiG-29 Fulcrum-D carrier-based fighter jets beat China's offer to sell its latest J-10 and FC-1 fighters._


More MiG-29s for Myanmar


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## Zabaniyah

Su-11 said:


> Myanmar to buy 20 MiG-29 fighters for $570 mln - paper | Business | RIA Novosti
> _Russian bid to supply MiG-29 Fulcrum-D carrier-based fighter jets beat China's offer to sell its latest J-10 and FC-1 fighters._
> 
> 
> More MiG-29s for Myanmar
> 
> Myanmar to buy 20 MiG-29 from Russia



Carrier-based? What is that supposed to mean? Or is it whatever Google spits out?  

Although, Myanmar is a candidate customer for the FC-1.

Fulcrum D is the MiG-29K. Does Myanmar operate aircraft carriers? 

As I said, don't come up with bullshit sources or whatever Google spits out.


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## Su-11

Loki said:


> Carrier-based? What is that supposed to mean? Or is it whatever Google spits out?
> 
> Although, Myanmar is a candidate customer for the FC-1.
> 
> As I said, don't come up with BS Russian sources.


Russian sources are bullshit? 

Carrier based in the sense, MiG-29M/M2 is based on the MiG-29K.

_The MiG-29M/M2 fighters belong to the new unified combat aircraft family designed on the basis of MiG-29K/KUB carrier-based fighters._
- MiG-29M/M2

It is still not clear how many fighters were MiG-29SE or SMT or M or M2 which Myanmar bought.


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## Zabaniyah

Su-11 said:


> Russian sources are bullshit?



They usually are when it comes to such news. 



Su-11 said:


> Carrier based in the sense, MiG-29M/M2 is based on the MiG-29K.
> 
> _The MiG-29M/M2 fighters belong to the new unified combat aircraft family designed on the basis of MiG-29K/KUB carrier-based fighters._
> - MiG-29M/M2
> 
> It is still not clear how many fighters were MiG-29SE or SMT or M or M2 which Myanmar bought.



They lost credibility when it said "carrier-based". The whole thing becomes misleading. 

All of the MiGs were bought off-shelf and of SE variants or similar. I doubt if they can afford such a large number of brand new MiGs in latest configs.

And besides, the J-10 is won't be for everyone

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## Su-11

> Loki said:
> 
> 
> 
> They usually are when it comes to such news.
> 
> 
> 
> They lost credibility when it said "carrier-based". The whole thing becomes misleading.
> 
> All of the MiGs were bought off-shelf and of SE variants or similar. I doubt if they can afford such a large number of brand new MiGs in latest configs.
> 
> And besides, the J-10 is won't be for everyone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is based on carrier based fighters. Reporters are generally dumb when it comes to technical nuances. However defeating chinese crap is not something technical to be gotten wrong.
> 
> Russians are the ones who are selling this and you are calling they lost credibility.
> 
> Besides, are you telling me re-furbished airframes costs 29 million dollars? MiG-29K costs 32 million dollars. MiG-29M without the carrier based modifications will be less than MiG-29K and will easily fall within the 29 million dollars price range.
Click to expand...


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## Zabaniyah

Su-11 said:


> It is based on carrier based fighters. Reporters are generally dumb when it comes to technical nuances. However defeating chinese crap is not something technical to be gotten wrong.
> 
> Russians are the ones who are selling this and you are calling they lost credibility.
> 
> Besides, are you telling me re-furbished airframes costs 29 million dollars? MiG-29K costs 32 million dollars. MiG-29M without the carrier based modifications will be less than MiG-29K and will easily fall within the 29 million dollars price range.



That "Chinese crap" were still very new at the time of the deals. They are not operationally proven as the MiG-29 is. 

And yes, they were procured off-shelf, along with spares, infrastructure, ammo, etc:


> Myanmar will in March receive the first of 20 RSK MiG-29s ordered under a roughly &#8364;400 million ($553 million) deal, with their introduction to more than double the country's MiG-29 fleet.
> 
> Ordered in November 2009, the aircraft will be delivered in three configurations, comprising 10 MiG-29B and six MiG-29SE single-seat fighters and four MiG-29UB twin-seat operational trainers.
> 
> *The acquisition effectively clears the remaining MiG-29B/SE stock at RSK MiG's Lukhovitsy plant, with the airframe parts having been manufactured in the Soviet and Perestroika eras. *Myanmar's aircraft will be delivered in an original export configuration, with analogue instruments and Phazotron N-019 radars.
> 
> *Myanmar previously bought used MiG-29s from Belarus, but approached the type's manufacturer and Russian arms export company Rosoboronexport for help after encountering a high attrition rate. Moscow responded with help on weapons, spare parts and training, including the installation of a simulator at one of its air bases.*
> 
> Acquiring an additional batch of fighters directly from RSK MiG should radically improve the combat readiness and effectiveness of Myanmar's fleet, sources say. Its air force now has 12 MiG-29s, says Flightglobal's MiliCAS database.
> 
> Meanwhile, RSK MiG says a new logistics support system to be established in co-operation with Indian companies will enable it to provide increased customer support for the nation's MiG-29s, plus those flown by the air forces of Malaysia and Myanmar.


Myanmar to receive new batch of MiG-29s from March


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## Su-11

Loki said:


> That "Chinese crap" were still very new at the time of the deals. They are not operationally proven as the MiG-29 is.
> 
> And yes, they were procured off-shelf, along with spares, infrastructure, ammo, etc:
> 
> Myanmar to receive new batch of MiG-29s from March


Your link doesn't say anything about weps or ammo being part of the deal. The line which you are highlighting is what Myanmar did PREVIOUSLY. Read it carefully.

And the other thing, Flight global is getting info from whom? The news for my link comes from Rosoborone export.


----------



## Zabaniyah

Su-11 said:


> Your link doesn't say anything about weps or ammo being part of the deal.* The line which you are highlighting is what Myanmar did PREVIOUSLY*. Read it carefully.
> 
> And the other thing, Flight global is getting info from whom? The news for my link comes from Rosoborone export.





> The acquisition effectively clears the remaining MiG-29B/SE stock at RSK MiG's Lukhovitsy plant, with the airframe parts having been manufactured in the Soviet and Perestroika eras. Myanmar's aircraft will be delivered in an original export configuration, with analogue instruments and Phazotron N-019 radars.



That is in future tense. Not past tense

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## Su-11

I know that pole-vaulter. That line was for the "previously bought" highlighted line.

For the line which you quoted now, I'm asking who did flight global contact? My link's info's source is Rosoborone export, russia's offical export agency for military hardware.


----------



## Zabaniyah

Su-11 said:


> I know that pole-vaulter. That line was for the "previously bought" highlighted line.
> 
> For the line which you quoted now, I'm asking who did flight global contact? My link's info's source is Rosoborone export, russia's offical export agency for military hardware.



"Pole-vaulter"? Nice to see another racist Indian here  

And I have come up with evidence that they are indeed of SE variants or similar. Your original source did not mention the variant. 

On subject:

Think of it this way. 

Suppose that the J-10 was indeed offered, and given that it was very new at the time, and given that the MiG-29 is older and a much more proven platform, choosing the MiG-29 over the J-10 was a rational decision for the Burmese. 

No one would want any issues with a plane that is a very new design. That applies to both the J-10 and FC-1. 

And sources such as Flightglobal and Jane's are pretty consistent in what they report. Be it Russian, Chinese or Western. 

By the way, has Sri Lanka received the MiGs yet?


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## Su-11

All we know is that MiG-29 won the tender. On what basis it won, whether it was technical, or political, or cost or anyother no one knows. Would be good if myanmar released the details of that. 

I'd take a rosoborone source which is straight from the horses mouth, over third party "sources" quoted by popular defence magazines.

Srilankans havent received it. No idea if they ever will or they wont.


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## MightyDragon

Loki said:


> That is in future tense. Not past tense



Future tense... but written in last year


----------



## Kompromat

Shenyang J-31.

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## Kompromat



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## conworldus

danger-zone said:


> Why so confirmed ! for J-31 sale to Pakistan... Why ?



The J-31 is probably the only stealth fighter in the world that's available and also affordable to Pakistan. It also suits Pakistan's defensive needs well.

Only China, Russia, US, and EU (collectively) can develop a stealth fighter. The other countries such as Korea, Japan, and India will most likely not finish their projects due to financial and technical constraints. Even if they do finish the projects, the prices are going to be through the roof. EU has already decided on F-35; Russia is doing their PAK FA; the F-22 and F-35 are both out of reach. Since J-20 is probably too expensive, that leaves pretty much J-31 for Pakistan's next upgrade.

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## Nishan_101

PAF should keep on eye on that planes an order then in great nos. like 200-250..


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## Kompromat

Nishan_101 said:


> PAF should keep on eye on that planes an order then in great nos. like 200-250..



And who will pay for it?


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## A.Rafay

Aeronaut said:


> And who will pay for it?



How much does one piece costs??


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## Kompromat

A.Rafay said:


> How much does one piece costs??



50-60 Million a pop, is my guess.


----------



## 帅的一匹

A.Rafay said:


> How much does one piece costs??


80 million USD per. As to PAF, maybe cheaper.


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## giant panda

80 million USD is a little expensive ,I guess the cost about 50~60 million USD.


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## giant panda



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## giant panda

æ´åµ 2012 i love china - YouTube


Top10 China military news 2012






56

ãçåµ2012ãå¥½å*©å*åå¸2012ä¸*å½åå·¥ç§ææè¡æ¦_è§é¢å¨çº¿è§ç - 56.com


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## Sasquatch



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## giant panda




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## Broccoli



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## Esc8781

@2:03


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## hk299792458

A mockup of *Project 310* with external weapon is revealed in a video of ex-CEO of SAC...

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## giant panda

^official model of AMF Gyrfalcon with one piece canopy and some HUGE ASMs under its wing


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## Fsjal

Hu Songshan said:


>



Love it.


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## giant panda

FI want very much to see AMF Gyrfalcon at the paris Air show?

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## Echo_419

hk299792458 said:


>



Nice pics man 
What is the price anyway


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## Broccoli



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## sweetgrape



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## David2mayes

thank you for your sharing


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## hk299792458

I read from a Chinese website that PAF has officially refused the proposal from AVIC to buy Project 310, do anyone here have the same version?

By the way, according to the same source, PLAAF and PLANAF have also refused to buy this plane...


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## Esc8781

Never mind....


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## giant panda

hk299792458 said:


> I read from a Chinese website that PAF has officially refused the proposal from AVIC to buy Project 310, do anyone here have the same version?
> 
> By the way, according to the same source, PLAAF and PLANAF have also refused to buy this plane...



I read from a Chinese website that PAF has officially refused the proposal from AVIC to buy Project 310

----------------------
The AMF just now came out and only made a test-flight.PAF rejected it immediately. 
Unless PAF is going to buy US F-35 or russia PAK-FA even CAC J-20 immediately. 

i think this is a pure fake infs from those Chinese CAC's fanboys who always dislike SAC.

#################

according to the same source, PLAAF and PLANAF have also refused to buy this plane

--------------------

Project 310 is not a PLAAF Project,But PLANF will buy the bird,AMF is PLANF NG carrier fighter more likely.


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## sweetgrape



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## Kompromat

Guys its TOOO early to,say anything abouy PAF in relation to the J-31. How can PAF or any other potential buyer can reject an aircraft which is still a 'basic' prototype? 

Jets are, eveluated on their 'full' technical capabilities,whic are hard to judge before a serial production variant is finalised.

PAF may have refused to get into joint venture because of our country's economic constraints,but refusing the jet itself is like refusing to eat the meal before its even cooked.

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## Luftwaffe

J-31 is the potential alternative to J-10B, PAF need not go for 100+ even 36 would be a great start in the Future provided it is a complete finished product ready to be exported if the project is successful. PAF at this tough times isn't even thinking of J-10B.

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## Shadow_Hunter

Luftwaffe said:


> J-31 is the potential alternative to J-10B, PAF need not go for 100+ even 36 would be a great start in the Future provided it is a complete finished product ready to be exported if the project is successful. PAF at this tough times isn't even thinking of J-10B.



Yeah right.

Just a few weeks back this forum was going gaga over J10B. I remember a specific thread was started by a pakistani in which the author had written that India is very afraid of J10B, although pakistan is only inducting 36 of them, as opposed to 126 Rafales by India


----------



## hk299792458

giant panda said:


> Project 310 is not a PLAAF Project,But PLANF will buy the bird,AMF is PLANF NG carrier fighter more likely.



What makes you that sure?


----------



## giant panda

hk299792458 said:


> What makes you that sure?



&#33609;&#26681;&#35373;&#35336;&#24107;&#30340;&#32362;&#22294;&#21644;&#39080;&#19981;&#24754;&#30340;&#29190;&#26009;


----------



## hk299792458

giant panda said:


> &#33609;&#26681;&#35373;&#35336;&#24107;&#30340;&#32362;&#22294;&#21644;&#39080;&#19981;&#24754;&#30340;&#29190;&#26009;



&#39080;&#19981;&#24754; seems to be a student in the electronic university of Chengdu?

How come a student can access to that kind of information?

Henri K.


----------



## giant panda

hk299792458 said:


> &#39080;&#19981;&#24754; seems to be a student in the electronic university of Chengdu?
> 
> How come a student can access to that kind of information?
> 
> Henri K.



&#39080;&#19981;&#24754; is anything but an ordinary college kids,Actuallly this guy is a mod of iissbbs forum and one of the most famous climbing wall party at CAC.He once gave the day of AMF's first flight very exact .&#39080;&#19981;&#24754; and &#33609;&#26681;&#35373;&#35336;&#24107; are very reliable big shrimps who have been proven effective chinese military forum.


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## giant panda

AMF/J-21 Gyrfalcon CG

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## A.Razzaq

pretty good


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## giant panda



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## cirr




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## j20blackdragon

Check out the beautiful *flat lower fuselage* of the J-31.











No *lumps and bumps* like the F-35.

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## Broccoli

X-35 did not have any lumps and bumps.






New pics.


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## j20blackdragon

Broccoli said:


> X-35 *did not* have any lumps and bumps.



I agree, it *did not* have any lumps and bumpspast tense.

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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> Check out the beautiful *flat lower fuselage* of the J-31.


Yup...Beautiful indeed. A flat plate is quite beautiful to a seeking radar.


----------



## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> Yup...Beautiful indeed. A flat plate is quite beautiful to a seeking radar.



But only if the flat plate is *perpendicular* to the seeking radar right? 

You see, this is the best thing about the J-31.

Trolls can't disparage it without also disparaging the F-22/X-35.

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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> But only if the flat plate is *perpendicular* to the seeking radar right?
> 
> You see, this is the best thing about the J-31.
> 
> Trolls can't disparage it without also disparaging the F-22/X-35.


Same argument can be made for those 'bumps' and 'curves', right?

Please...You have no clue on how those figures are exploited. If anything, without me, none of the Chinese members would have any clue on how 'stealth' is accomplished.


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## cirr




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## Lure

gambit said:


> Same argument can be made for those 'bumps' and 'curves', right?
> 
> Please...You have no clue on how those figures are exploited. If anything, without me, none of the Chinese members would have any clue on how 'stealth' is accomplished.



Maybe China should hire you to work on their stealth projects. You have a tremendous capability of rating the quality of the stealth by just looking at photos. You can work at home and make millions with that skill. Good for you. I mean seriously do you really believe that the guys who work on this project can't simply think what you can come up by just looking at a photo without any data?

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## gambit

Lure said:


> Maybe China should hire you to work on their stealth projects.


China cannot afford me.



Lure said:


> *You have a tremendous capability of rating the quality of the stealth by just looking at photos.* You can work at home and make millions with that skill. Good for you. I mean seriously do you really believe that the guys who work on this project can't simply think what you can come up by just looking at a photo without any data?


You might want to talk to the Chinese members here about that. Everyone here knows that I have always advocated hard data regarding this topic and it have always been the Chinese who are willing to make proclamations based purely on eyeballs alone.


----------



## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> China cannot afford me.



Gambit turned China down, so China had to go for this guy instead. 

Ex-B-2 engineer guilty of helping China develop stealth cruise missile

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## Audio

j20blackdragon said:


> No *lumps and bumps* like the F-35.



That's because there are no instruments inside whose cover are the "bumps". 
Though transplanting gear from the much bigger Sukhoi clone could produce bumps in the future.


----------



## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> Gambit turned China down, so China had to go for this guy instead.
> 
> Ex-B-2 engineer guilty of helping China develop stealth cruise missile


You get what you pay for...

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## Donatello

gambit said:


> You might want to talk to the Chinese members here about that. Everyone here knows that I have always advocated hard data regarding this topic and it have always been the Chinese who are willing to make proclamations based purely on eyeballs alone.




Gambit,

This type of conversation does not suit your rank here on this forum or the USAF that you so proudly represent. You are a professional here on this forum to help educate us all. Act like one. Don't get into menial -no use- fights.

China is a rising technological power, admit it.

This Arrogance is not going to take you anywhere.......unless you are really too old and don't really care.


----------



## qwerrty

Audio said:


> That's because there are no instruments inside whose cover are the "bumps".
> Though transplanting gear from the much bigger Sukhoi clone could produce bumps in the future.



more to do with its twin engine configuration, which give more space to fit everything inside without creating any bumps.


----------



## Fsjal

j20blackdragon said:


> Gambit turned China down, so China had to go for this guy instead.
> 
> Ex-B-2 engineer guilty of helping China develop stealth cruise missile



China should of chose Gambit instead, since Gambit has good knowledge in defense tech. Anyway, he doesn't want to work for them.
BTW, why would the ex-B-2 engineer work for China. Money is it?


----------



## j20blackdragon

Audio said:


> That's because there are no instruments inside whose cover are the "bumps".



So I guess the F-22 has no instruments inside. 























> Though transplanting gear from the much bigger *Sukhoi clone* could produce bumps in the future.



Nobody wants to "clone" garbage like this.

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## Audio

qwerrty said:


> more to do with its twin engine configuration, which give more space to fit everything inside without creating any bumps.



I meant sensors which are placed on outlying positions in order to have a better view of the sorrounding environment, not that it lacks space inside, stuff like DAS, RWR, etc...



j20blackdragon said:


> So I guess the F-22 has no instruments inside.



This is the first prototype. Do you know of any other first prototypes that were fully loaded with gear and electronics on first flight?



qwerrty said:


> wants to "clone" garbage like this.



I guess that's why J-15 doesn't resemble a Russian fighter and J-15 doesn't at all resemble the Russian jet trainer. 
Do you think before you post or you operate only in spotting differences on airplane pictures?


As for the rust on the PAK-FA. Why do you think Chinese ones are painted black?


----------



## j20blackdragon

Audio said:


> I guess that's why J-15 doesn't resemble a Russian fighter and J-15 doesn't at all resemble the Russian jet trainer.



The J-15/Su-33 are not stealth fighters like the CRAP FA claims to be. 



> As for the rust on the PAK-FA. Why do you think Chinese ones are painted black?



The rust is the *least* of the problems.

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## Audio

j20blackdragon said:


> The J-15/Su-33 are not stealth fighters like the CRAP FA claims to be.



Irelevant. It was cloned, and since it is a predecesor to the PAK-FA it should by all accounts be inferior. If you are mocking it, you are mocking all of those Chinese engineers who were painstakingly taking it apart and cataloging all the parts.




j20blackdragon said:


> The rust is the *least* of the problems.



If only they could import Chinese black paint to cover it up, right?

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## gambit

Fsjal said:


> China should of chose Gambit instead, since Gambit has good knowledge in defense tech. Anyway, he doesn't want to work for them.
> BTW, why would the *ex-B-2 engineer* work for China. Money is it?


Any aircraft will have many engineering disciplines involved, and each discipline have its own subordinate disciplines. So the question is more about what system or subordinate system was this guy working on. This is not meant to downplay what he did but to better focus the discussion on the damages.

So according to the news article...



> ...when he worked for Northrup from 1968 to 1986, designed the exhaust nozzle for the cruise missile...


The exhaust nozzle is a subordinate system to Propulsion. Under Propulsion, there will be engineers assigned to work on fan blades, fuel injectors, materials, core integration, avionics, and just about anything else whose components cannot be found in the civilian sector. The more advanced the weapon system, the more likely each component for each sub-system will have to be designed and manufactured from paper instead of adapting an existing component.

Quite often an engineer will be assigned to be specialist in two or more specialties simply by virtue of their integration. For example...An air data specialist will be the specialist for both the air data computer and the air data probes, those 'thingies' that sticks out into the air stream. It will be his responsibility to search for available probe designs, adapt them as necessary, or learn to design new ones if necessary.

So what kind of damages can Mr. Noshir Gowadia do? Plenty.

Exhaust nozzles design hints at many vital internal engine designs, everything from core diameter to thrust. Every subordinate system must be optimized, to use that cliche, to produce the best effect for any other sub-system that require its inputs. The best analogy is that every component in every system is either a supplier or a customer of data to another system at any time.

Gowadia may be portrayed as an exhaust nozzle engineer but that could also make him a materials specialist as well. May be not materials for the aircraft's skin but materials that could withstand high temperature for long duration because that is the environment produces by the engine. So now China have additional knowledge on this aspect of aviation in general and of cruise missile engine design in particular. Knowledge that is either new to the Chinese engineers or to correlate/confirm any suspicion/speculation Chinese engineers may have in their own designs. The Chinese engineers working on engine avionics now have data on how to control an engine in a different method thanks to a new (to China) exhaust nozzle diameter, that can withstand a higher temperature, that can be cycled from mil to AB without stalling, etc. Either way, the Chinese engineers benefit and any money spent in bribes was well worth the investment.

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## siegecrossbow

Video on the 3D laser printing techniques used to manufacture the stress bearing parts on the J-21.

[3D


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## Ultima Thule

i guess this plane is better than j-20 because of it not has canard and ventral fin


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## j20blackdragon

pakistanipower said:


> i guess this plane is better than j-20 because of it not has canard and ventral fin



But can you briefly explain why canards are detrimental to the aircraft's RCS to begin with, or are you just saying it because everyone else is?

The top and bottom of a canard are flat plates.







The canard has a leading edge.






The canard has a trailing edge.






The canard forms a 120 degree angle with the fuselage.






The canard is a moving control surface, but so are the F-22's stabilators.






So what is it about the canards that make them so horrible from a stealth perspective?

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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> But can you briefly explain why canards are detrimental to the aircraft's RCS to begin with, or are you just saying it because everyone else is?
> 
> The top and bottom of a canard are flat plates.
> 
> The canard has a leading edge.
> 
> The canard has a trailing edge.
> 
> The canard forms a 120 degree angle with the fuselage.
> 
> The canard is a moving control surface, but so are the F-22's stabilators.
> 
> So what is it about the canards that make them so horrible from a stealth perspective?


It is their locations that made them significant.

Plus they are not in the same plane as the wings...






As the above image showed. That means the canards' trailing edge diffraction signals will impact the wings' leading edges in a different angle than how the F-22's wings and horizontal stabilators are aligned. Plus they add to the total amount of major structural radiators on the J-20. The J-20 have 8 flight control surfaces. The F-22 have six. All of this have been explained before.

Apparently you have a difficult time understanding how things relate to each other.


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## Sam1980

Hmm... Noshir Gowadia! I don't want to Google him! But is he Parsi by any chance?!


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## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> That means the canards' trailing edge diffraction signals will impact the wings' leading edges in a different angle than how the F-22's wings and horizontal stabilators are aligned.



This is speculation.

You're describing a *speculative interaction* between the trailing edge of the canard and the main wing, which *you believe* will return a radar signal back to the enemy receiver. The main problem with what you said is that you can't know with any certainty that it will happen at all. In other words, it can't be verified. 

I challenge you to draw a diagram depicting what you're describing.

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## hk299792458

gambit said:


> It is their locations that made them significant.
> 
> Plus they are not in the same plane as the wings...



They are.

Some colleagues from Dassault have studied this plane.

Henri K.


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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> This is speculation.
> 
> You're describing a *speculative interaction* between the trailing edge of the canard and the main wing, which *you believe* will return a radar signal back to the enemy receiver. The main problem with what you said is that you can't know with any certainty that it will happen at all. In other words, it can't be verified.
> 
> I challenge you to draw a diagram depicting what you're describing.


There is nothing 'speculative' about this and I do not need to draw anything. Anyone can do keyword search 'radar cross section edge diffraction interference' and see for themselves. There are plenty of credible sources about this subject, starting with Russian mathematician Ufimtsev, using real physics. Not 'Chinese physics'.



hk299792458 said:


> They are.
> 
> Some colleagues from Dassault have studied this plane.
> 
> Henri K.


Not for the J-20...






Look at the canards' angle again...


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## hk299792458

gambit said:


> Not for the J-20...
> 
> Look at the canards' angle again...



The root of canard is at the same plane as that of the wing.

In a more general way of speaking, the canards, the LERX and the wing are aligned on the same structural side line. The canards have a positive dihedral angle based on this plane, whereas the LERX a negative one.

This is our conclusion after having seen more than 3500 pics of J-20 and around 2h of footage.

We know what we say.

Henri K.

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## gambit

hk299792458 said:


> *The root of canard is at the same plane as that of the wing.*
> 
> This is our conclusion after having seen more than 3500 pics of J-20 and around 2h of footage.
> 
> We know what we say.
> 
> Henri K.


Edge diffraction fields are not confined to the root. Most illustrations regarding these behaviors uses straight lines/arrows, which are misleading.

This is what a radar transmission, be it from an antenna or from a diffraction field, look like...






Surface waves travels throughout the structure, losing small packets of specular energy until a surface disruption is encountered. That surface disruption here is between metal and air. Or the canard and free space.

If the goal is to control, as much as possible, these behaviors, then you must confine their radiation angle of approach onto nearby structures, if there are any. One way to do that is to keep the structures in as much alignment as possible. That is why for the F-22, the wings and horizontal stabs are so close together and in complete alignment.


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## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> There is nothing 'speculative' about this and I do not need to draw anything.



You can't draw it because it's speculation.

The naysayers/haters/trolls here have been saying time and time again that the trailing edge of the canards will supposedly diffract onto the main wings and fuselage, and generate a radar return.

I want to see how that actually happens.

Please draw the diagram.

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## Beast

j20blackdragon said:


> You can't draw it because it's speculation.
> 
> The naysayers/haters/trolls here have been saying time and time again that the trailing edge of the canards will supposedly diffract onto the main wings and fuselage, and generate a radar return.
> Y
> I want to see how that actually happens.
> 
> Please draw the diagram.



I am sick of the repeating nonsense by gambit. When his point is challenged and ask to prove. This guy will just beat around the bush and flood this tread with some technical data which just confused the readers. Fancy even moderator like Oscar think this guy is an asset to this forum? More like spreading , misled all of us to believe the agenda of anti china sentiment.

Everybody can see the canard is aligned in the same place as root wing. I think someone shall post a picture of J-20 with canard align with main wing to shut this pest.

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## tanlixiang28776

What Gambit uses is called Argument Verbosium

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## gambit

> j20blackdragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can't draw it because it's speculation.
> 
> The naysayers/haters/trolls here have been saying time and time again that the trailing edge of the canards will supposedly diffract onto the main wings and fuselage, and generate a radar return.
> 
> I want to see how that actually happens.
> 
> Please draw the diagram.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beast said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sick of the repeating nonsense by gambit. When his point is challenged and ask to prove. This guy will just beat around the bush and flood this tread with some technical data which just confused the readers. Fancy even moderator like Oscar think this guy is an asset to this forum? More like spreading , misled all of us to believe the agenda of anti china sentiment.
> 
> Everybody can see the canard is aligned in the same place as root wing. I think someone shall post a picture of J-20 with canard align with main wing to shut this pest.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Both of you are hopeless.

Fundamentals of the Physical Theory of Diffraction: Pyotr Ya. Ufimtsev: 9780470097717: Amazon.com: Books

I do not need to draw any diagrams because Professor Ufimtsev already done it. Not just for me, but for the entire world, including Chinese engineers. 

An impinging radar wave travels the *ENTIRE* canard structure, not just the root. This is real physics, not 'Chinese physics'. Both of you are embarrassment to the smarter Chinese members here.


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## Ultima Thule

you r entirely correct Mr,gambit but these chinese people don't understand


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## j20blackdragon

pakistanipower said:


> you r entirely correct Mr,gambit but these chinese people don't understand



If he is correct, why is he constantly ducking and weaving around the issue?

I've requested several times for him to draw a diagram to illustrate exactly why canards are detrimental.

If he wanted to, he could draw a simple diagram like this in 5 minutes with MS Paint.


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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> If he is correct, why is he constantly ducking and weaving around the issue?
> 
> I've requested several times for him to draw a diagram to illustrate exactly why canards are detrimental.
> 
> If he wanted to, he could draw a simple diagram like this in 5 minutes with MS Paint.


You really have embarrassed yourself and even worse, you do not even know it. You cannot even see how your own illustration debunked you. Am willing to bet that you really believe that those arrows go only one way.


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## j20blackdragon

Stop ducking and weaving gambit. 

Open up MSPaint and draw the diagram.

You can do it in 5 min if you actually had an argument.


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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> Stop ducking and weaving gambit.
> 
> Open up MSPaint and draw the diagram.
> 
> You can do it in 5 min if you actually had an argument.


Do *YOU* believe the edge diffraction arrows in this illustration...






...Go only one way, as shown?


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## hk299792458

gambit said:


> Do *YOU* believe the edge diffraction arrows in this illustration...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...Go only one way, as shown?



Sorry, but no any human being can determinate the RCS or the level of stealth of any item only with his eyes.

This kind of arguments show already a lot of things.

Useless to argue again.

Henri K.


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## gambit

hk299792458 said:


> Sorry, but no any human being can determinate the RCS or the level of stealth of any item only with his eyes.
> 
> This kind of arguments show already a lot of things.
> 
> Useless to argue again.
> 
> Henri K.


What I asked was not derived from eyeballing anything. Edge diffraction fields have been measured as to their intensity and field dispersal. So yes, it is useless to argue with you who refused to acknowledge real physics.


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## j20blackdragon

Notice that gambit has been ducking and weaving like a professional boxer for a page now, but refuses to draw a simple black and white diagram on MSPaint. 

Something like this will do just fine: 






No one is asking for a complicated drawing like this:


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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> Notice that gambit has been ducking and weaving like a professional boxer for a page now, but refuses to draw a simple black and white diagram on MSPaint.
> 
> Something like this will do just fine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one is asking for a complicated drawing like this:


Take the F-16 image...

Do *YOU* believe that is exactly how edge diffraction behaves on the wing? Exactly and only. And that no edge diffraction signals will impact the horizontal stab.

Simple enough question, kid. Funny part is that no matter how you answer, you will end up looking the fool.


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## j20blackdragon

More misdirection as expected.

Notice that gambit has not explained why the canards are as bad as he says they are.

He has also not produced a diagram illustrating why.


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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> More misdirection as expected.
> 
> Notice that gambit has not explained why the canards are as bad as he says they are.
> 
> He has also not produced a diagram illustrating why.


I have no need to provide any 'diagram'. *YOU* are. And excellent examples at that. Now answer my question. Or are you afraid?


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## j20blackdragon

While we're on the subject of the F-16, I might as well point out that the trailing edges of the F-16's main wings and horizontal stabilizers are perpendicular to the direction of flight. That fact alone should make it absolutely inferior to the J-20. 






Still waiting for gambit's analysis of the J-20. Where's the diagram? You can't deliver?


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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> While we're on the subject of the F-16, I might as well point out that the trailing edges of the F-16's main wings and horizontal stabilizers are perpendicular to the direction of flight. That fact alone should make it absolutely inferior to the J-20.


The laugh is on *YOU* for believing in 'Chinese physics'. The issue is not only orientation of the edge, but *ALSO* on the diffracted signal behavior.

Since you provided such an excellent example, I will poach it for my own use...







Look at the port wing and the arrow on it.

Do you believe that is the *EXACT* and *ONLY* way a surface wave will behave?


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## giant panda

*airliners*






CADDER's CGI


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## j20blackdragon

Both the leading and trailing edges of the J-20's canards are swept at an angle.

In fact, the trailing edge of the canard has the same angular alignment as the trailing edge of the *opposite* main wing, so obviously the designers put some thought into this.

Air Power Australia has pointed this fact out since day one:



> Planform alignment of the J-XX/J-20 shows exact angular alignment between canard and delta leading edges, *and exact crossed (starboard to port, port to starboard) angular edge alignment between canard and delta trailing edges.* Leading edge sweep is ~43°, clearly intended for efficient supersonic flight.



Chengdu J-XX [J-20] Stealth Fighter Prototype / A Preliminary Assessment











Want to know why leading and trailing edges are swept the way they are? Check out these two diagrams.











Want an example of how *not* to design a stealth aircraft? Check out the trailing edges of practically everything on the F-16.

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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> Both the leading and trailing edges of the J-20's canards are swept at an angle.
> 
> In fact, the trailing edge of the canard has the same angular alignment as the trailing edge of the *opposite* main wing, so obviously the designers put some thought into this.
> 
> Air Power Australia has pointed this fact out since day one:


Yes, for supersonic flight.



j20blackdragon said:


> Want to know why leading and trailing edges are swept the way they are? Check out these two diagrams.


I educated this forum about this long before you got here. You brought on nothing new.



j20blackdragon said:


> Want an example of how *not* to design a stealth aircraft? Check out the trailing edges of practically everything on the F-16.


The F-16 is from the 1970s. It took China decades to build an aircraft may be at best comparable to it. The F-16 is still the standard to beat if anyone want to get into the 'stealth' regime.

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## j20blackdragon

Once again, the trailing edge of the canard has the same angular alignment as the trailing edge of the *opposite* main wing.

There's nothing wrong with the J-20's planform alignment.

I highlighted the trailing edges of the J-20 on MSPaint in less than a minute.

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## Akasa

gambit said:


> The F-16 is from the 1970s. It took China decades to build an aircraft may be at best comparable to it. The F-16 is still the standard to beat if anyone want to get into the 'stealth' regime.



The F-16 was never meant to be a LO design. When the PLAAF fielded their upgraded J-8Ms, which were somewhat comparable to early variants of the F-16 in terms of radar and climb, it was clear that their main concern regarding American aircraft was their maneuverability and high speed performance. The trend is still clear with the current J-10A. J-20 and J-31, and perhaps J-11B, J-15, and J-16, to some extent, are the first aircraft that were specifically designed not to necessarily defeat and dominate, but rather to exploit and hinder the F-22, F-35, and F/A-18E/F.


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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> Once again, the trailing edge of the canard has the same angular alignment as the trailing edge of the *opposite* main wing.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with the J-20's planform alignment.


You really are not a very smart person.

The edge diffraction signals from starboard canard do not impact the port wing. And the edge diffraction signals from the port canard do not impact the starboard wing. 

Once again...This is about your understanding of RCS control, the basics of which I explained to this forum many times since 2009...






Base upon the image which *YOU* provided, do *YOU* believe that port wing's arrow indicate the *EXACT* and *ONLY* behavior of surface wave?



j20blackdragon said:


> I highlighted the trailing edges of the J-20 on MSPaint in less than a minute.


Good for you. When it comes to Photochop warriors, the US yield to China.



SinoSoldier said:


> The F-16 was never meant to be a LO design.


Am shocked...!!! 



SinoSoldier said:


> When the PLAAF fielded their upgraded J-8Ms, which were somewhat comparable to early variants of the F-16 in terms of radar and climb, it was clear that their main concern regarding American aircraft was their maneuverability and high speed performance. The trend is still clear with the current J-10A. J-20 and J-31, and perhaps J-11B, J-15, and J-16, to some extent, are the first aircraft that were specifically designed not to necessarily defeat and dominate, but rather to exploit and hinder the F-22, F-35, and F/A-18E/F.


See this...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...irole-fighter-thread-4-a-662.html#post4106054

A four-ship flight of trained USAF Viper pilots will make 'lap cheong' out of 8 PLAAF pilots. Easily.


----------



## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> The edge diffraction signals from starboard canard do not impact the port wing. And the edge diffraction signals from the port canard do not impact the starboard wing.



I simply highlighted the angular alignment of the trailing edges.

Nowhere did I draw diffraction signals. 

Perhaps *you* can draw them and demonstrate why the J-20 is as bad as you say it is. 

While you're at it do it for the F-22 as well.

I would love to see that. 






I'll even provide you with a picture of the F-22 with trailing edges highlighted.






Just for fun, I'm throwing in the B-2 as well with trailing edges highlighted.











Come on gambit, time for you to explain why the J-20's canards are so bad.

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## feilong

come on j20blackdragon give the old guy a break, he cannot answer your question or his book cannot tell him anything. He will said you based on too much chinese physic. Lol.

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## Ming

feilong said:


> come on j20blackdragon give the old guy a break, he cannot answer your question or his book cannot tell him anything. He will said you based on too much chinese physic. Lol.



J20blackdragon is embarrassing gambit and gambit is resorting to personal attacks, which is typical when the dude has run out of ideas he diverts attention. He claims to be some tech guy from the USAF and he still doesn't understand the basics of an aircraft .
I guess they teach 'American physics' where its impossible for American aircraft to get shot down. Too bad in real battle a bunch of Serbians with low cost anti-aircraft weapons shot down America's best 'stealth' aircraft (F-117). 
Gambit is too humiliated to admit J20blackdragon is spot on.

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## Ultima Thule

Ming said:


> J20blackdragon is embarrassing gambit and gambit is resorting to personal attacks, which is typical when the dude has run out of ideas he diverts attention. He claims to be some tech guy from the USAF and he still doesn't understand the basics of an aircraft .
> I guess they teach 'American physics' where its impossible for American aircraft to get shot down. Too bad in real battle a bunch of Serbians with low cost anti-aircraft weapons shot down America's best 'stealth' aircraft (F-117).
> Gambit is too humiliated to admit J20blackdragon is spot on.


no fighter plane is perfect J-20 and f-22 have their own pros and cons but i like j-31 more than j-20 because j-20 has canard and canard gives extra RCS with main wing to enemy radar


----------



## j20blackdragon

pakistanipower said:


> because j-20 has canard and canard gives extra RCS with main wing to enemy radar



But can you give an *explanation* as to why this is?

Or is your assertion based on faith?


----------



## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> I simply highlighted the angular alignment of the trailing edges.
> 
> *Nowhere did I draw diffraction signals. *
> 
> Perhaps *you* can draw them and demonstrate why the J-20 is as bad as you say it is.
> 
> While you're at it do it for the F-22 as well.
> 
> I would love to see that.


Then what is the purpose of those drawings? Planform alignment is about diffraction signals controls. Fool. 



j20blackdragon said:


> Come on gambit, time for you to explain why the J-20's canards are so bad.


If you cannot even understand your own drawing, how can you figure out why the J-20's canards are not good for RCS control?



j20blackdragon said:


> But can you give an *explanation* as to why this is?
> 
> Or is your assertion based on faith?


No, it is based upon real physics, not 'Chinese physics'.

In RCS control, one method is to minimize the total quantity and size of major radiation structures. The J-20 have eight flight control structures. The F-22 have six. Therefore, real physics will say that the body with the higher quantity of radiators will radiate more.


----------



## Zabaniyah

gambit said:


> If you cannot even understand your own drawing, how can you figure out why the J-20's canards are not good for RCS control?



I think RCS control on canard aircraft be achieved through specially designed software. The Typhoon does use it. 

Don't know about J-20's software on the issue.


----------



## gambit

Loki said:


> I think RCS control on canard aircraft be achieved through specially designed software. The Typhoon does use it.
> 
> Don't know about J-20's software on the issue.


I know what you are thinking of. But that is not the case. I explained the basic principles of SPECTRA a long time ago.

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## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> Then what is the purpose of those drawings? Planform alignment is about diffraction signals controls.



The purpose of the drawings is to give *you* a starting point to explain why the J-20's canards are detrimental to the aircraft's RCS.

I simply highlighted the trailing edges to show that they are indeed planform aligned, nothing more.

Now I await your explanation as to why the canards are so awful.







But I also ask that you provide an analysis of the F-22 under the same standards.











What's wrong gambit? You've been harping on and on about the canards for years now. Why are you so silent now?


----------



## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> The purpose of the drawings is to give *you* a starting point to explain why the J-20's canards are detrimental to the aircraft's RCS.


And I indulged you by pointing out you are wrong. Planform alignment is about diffraction signals controls and when do so, the starboard canard affect the starboard wing, not the port wing. 



j20blackdragon said:


> I simply highlighted the trailing edges to show that they are indeed planform aligned, nothing more.


Because you understand nothing about it. You have no experience, correct?



j20blackdragon said:


> Now I await your explanation as to why the canards are so awful.


Sure. The starboard canard affects the starboard wing, not the port wing. Do you agree?

Now answer my question...






Do you believe that the arrow on the wing demonstrate the exact and only way surface waves will behave? Exact and only. Failure to answer will only cement your ignorance and foolishness to the readers. I have engaged in this type of discussion long before you came on here and is now pretending to know what you are talking about.


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## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> Sure. The starboard canard affects the starboard wing, not the port wing.



Please provide a diagram/illustration showing how that happens. And most importantly, how that actually generates a radar signal that returns to the enemy radar.

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## Beast

Gambit will never provide one or response to J20blackdragon request. I challenged you, gambit, you are clueless in your arguement and you just flood around with senseless technical data trying to avoid the question.

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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> Please provide a diagram/illustration showing how that happens. And most importantly, how that actually generates a radar signal that returns to the enemy radar.


Wow...You really genuinely believe those U-turn arrows on the wings are exactly how surface wave behaves.



Beast said:


> Gambit will never provide one or response to J20blackdragon request. I challenged you, gambit, you are clueless in your arguement and you just flood around with senseless technical data trying to avoid the question.


I will make fools out of *BOTH* of you...


----------



## Beast

gambit said:


> Wow...You really genuinely believe those U-turn arrows on the wings are exactly how surface wave behaves.
> 
> 
> I will make fools out of *BOTH* of you...



How? With load of your pointless , irrelevant technical data endorse by fools? You little Viet.


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## gambit

Beast said:


> How? With load of your pointless , irrelevant technical data endorse by fools? You little Viet.


And how is your friend's diagrams any different?


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## Beast

gambit said:


> And how is your friend's diagrams any different?



Why not you just answer our enquries instead of avoiding it?


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## gambit

Beast said:


> Why not you just answer our enquries instead of avoiding it?


What difference does it make? After all, anything I bring on will be just 'irrelevant technical data' anyway, right? 

So explain to us before I make fools out of both of you: Why would my response be 'irrelevant technical data' but your friend's images are 'relevant', even though he clearly does not understand one whit of what they intended to illustrate?


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## Beast

gambit said:


> What difference does it make? After all, anything I bring on will be just 'irrelevant technical data' anyway, right?
> 
> So explain to us before I make fools out of both of you: Why would my response be 'irrelevant technical data' but your friend's images are 'relevant', even though he clearly does not understand one whit of what they intended to illustrate?



Really? I am waiting... Are you going to unload another wave of rubbish? 

So you so understand that you don't even know how to answer our enquries?


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## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> And how is your friend's diagrams any different?



I got this diagram from *you*.


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## gambit

Beast said:


> Really? I am waiting...


Then while you are waiting, you should reveal to interested readers what you know of this subject since you are so eager to suck up to your friend...






Do you believe that the U-turn arrow on the wing is exactly and only behavior of a surface wave?

Since I have only 'irrelevant technical data' you should be quite confident of your own knowledge, no?



j20blackdragon said:


> I got this diagram from *you*.


Then that should tell you that I know what I am talking about.

Nevertheless, answer my question: Do you believe the U-turn arrows on the wings illustrate exactly and only behavior of a surface wave?


----------



## Beast

gambit said:


> Then while you are waiting, you should reveal to interested readers what you know of this subject since you are so eager to suck up to your friend...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you believe that the U-turn arrow on the wing is exactly and only behavior of a surface wave?
> 
> Since I have only 'irrelevant technical data' you should be quite confident of your own knowledge, no?
> 
> 
> Then that should tell you that I know what I am talking about.
> 
> Nevertheless, answer my question: Do you believe the U-turn arrows on the wings illustrate exactly and only behavior of a surface wave?



See the above reply from j20blackdragon?


----------



## gambit

Beast said:


> See the above reply from j20blackdragon?


We can see who is the chickensh1t now? Perhaps you are beginning to realize the trap you dug for yourself.


----------



## Beast

gambit said:


> We can see who is the chickensh1t now? Perhaps you are beginning to realize the trap you dug for yourself.



What trap may I know? Until now you have not answer j20blackdragon enquries. Or you are the one not able to answer about the plantform alignment of J-20? The picture alignment from j20blackdragon makes sense. Come on, give us some sensible answer. We are reasonable people. Simple enquiry with simple answer? Difficult? Or you chicken off


----------



## Ultima Thule

j20blackdragon said:


> But can you give an *explanation* as to why this is?
> 
> Or is your assertion based on faith?


you don't have knowlege of basic of physics,if you have more surface area at the front of the aircraft then bounce back more signal to the radar, your all posts are junk and baseless and read carefully Mr gambit post that more logical and understandable than your love your Chinese physic and shut up


----------



## Akasa

gambit said:


> Am shocked...!!!



Interesting. Because from your last statement, it seems like you were quite sure that F-16 was the new "stan




gambit said:


> See this...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...irole-fighter-thread-4-a-662.html#post4106054
> 
> A four-ship flight of trained USAF Viper pilots will make 'lap cheong' out of 8 PLAAF pilots. Easily.



Yes, because obviously the PLAAF doesn't do any of its own training, right? The "trained" pilots were so successful in making "lap cheong" out of everybody that they had to cover up their own record during Cope India 2005 and Red Flag 2008.


----------



## gambit

SinoSoldier said:


> Interesting. Because from your last statement, it seems like you were quite sure that F-16 was the new "stan


So you did not get the sarcasm. Not a problem...



SinoSoldier said:


> Yes, because obviously the PLAAF doesn't do any of its own training, right?


Sure the PLAAF does have training. Just as not as good. And if you do not train as good as your adversary, you will die more quickly.



SinoSoldier said:


> The "trained" pilots were so successful in making "lap cheong" out of everybody that they had to cover up their own record during Cope India 2005 and Red Flag 2008.


Not those again...Already discussed and explained. The PLAAF could only wish it have something even halfway decent like Red Flag.


----------



## Ming

gambit said:


> So you did not get the sarcasm. Not a problem...
> 
> 
> Sure the PLAAF does have training. Just as not as good. And if you do not train as good as your adversary, you will die more quickly.
> 
> 
> Not those again...Already discussed and explained. The PLAAF could only wish it have something even halfway decent like Red Flag.



The PLAAF defeated the USAF in the Korean War, this is a historical fact.


----------



## Fsjal

Ming said:


> The PLAAF defeated the USAF in the Korean War, this is a historical fact.



I thought the Soviets won?????


----------



## Ming

Fsjal said:


> I thought the Soviets won?????



 that's according to American propaganda too ashamed to admit they lost to the PLAAF.

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## cnleio

Oh, my beautiful girl ~

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## j20blackdragon

cnleio said:


> Oh, my beautiful girl ~



Note the flat F-22 style lower fuselage of the J-31. This is what a real stealth aircraft looks like.











And now an example of how *not* to do it.

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## ptldM3

j20blackdragon said:


> Note the flat F-22 style lower fuselage of the J-31. This is what a real stealth aircraft looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And now an example of how *not* to do it.




Typical Chinese chest thumping, 'look we are the greatest everyone else is below us ha ha ha'. 

This is what not to do: 

http://i.imgur.com/9wQgx.jpg


----------



## Kompromat

ptldM3 said:


> Typical Chinese chest thumping, 'look we are the greatest everyone else is below us ha ha ha'.
> 
> This is what not to do:
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/9wQgx.jpg



Those engine nozzels were undergoing installation.


----------



## ptldM3

Aeronaut said:


> Those engine nozzels were undergoing installation.



I love how every Pakistani and Chinese defend blatant trolling ignoramuses. Moving on, those engines are modified 1970s engines, this is why I love when Chinese members here start pounding their chests and acting cocky all to get a reality check.

I wonder why I don't see Chinese members highlighting the J-31's two piece canopy or lack of serrations on the rear landing bay doors? After all the Chinese where all too eager pointing those 'un stealthy' features out on the pak-fa.

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## Kompromat

ptldM3 said:


> I love how every Pakistani and Chinese defend blatant trolling ignoramuses. Moving on, those engines are modified 1970s engines, this is why I love when Chinese members here start pounding their chests and acting cocky all to get a reality check.
> 
> I wonder why I don't see Chinese members highlighting the J-31's two piece canopy or lack of serrations on the rear landing bay doors? After all the Chinese where all too eager pointing those 'un stealthy' features out on the pak-fa.



So you were implying that,those jets are using Russian engines? I thought you were pointing out the installation process in those photos


----------



## gambit

Beast said:


> What trap may I know? Until now you have not answer j20blackdragon enquries. Or you are the one not able to answer about the plantform alignment of J-20? The picture alignment from j20blackdragon makes sense. Come on, give us some sensible answer. We are reasonable people. Simple enquiry with simple answer? Difficult? Or you chicken off


You unwittingly dug a trap for yourselves. If you are in mainland China, you would be a conscript reject just like your friends. So take your time and read what comes next. You will learn something, no matter how little.

First of all...There is nothing wrong with the canards. By themselves, each is just another structure. But when it is speculated that the canards are questionable regarding the J-20's radar cross section (RCS), it is about their relationship to other major structures nearby.

According to 'Chinese physics'...






The U-turn arrow on the wing is the exact and only behavior by surface traveling waves on any expanse. This is what the Chinese members here believes and there are no possible arguments against this belief. For the J-20's canards, and all other major structures for that matter, the only scattering behavior is back scatter. No such thing as forward scatter. Therefore, under 'Chinese physics', bi-static radar is not possible since the bi-static triangle requires forward scattering.

But for those who subscribes to real physics, here is why the J-20's canards are questionable.






When an impinging radar transmission cone is bisected by an edge, what is called a 'Keller cone' (keyword search) is created.

Note: Believers of 'Chinese physics' does not see a radar transmission as a cone but exactly as a straight line/arrow as illustrated.

For believers of real physics, this is what a radar transmission would look like...






It does not matter if the transmission is from an antenna. Real physics says that even specular reflection is effectively a transmission, in other words, real physics says that *ALL* radar transmission are either conic or fan in shape, depending on the transmitting antenna, of which a wing's leading edge by merely reflecting is effectively an antenna.

Following the production of the Keller Cone are surface traveling waves.

Radar cross section calculations of traveling surface waves


> The traveling surface wave phenomenon, a *significant echo mechanism for long, smooth bodies*, manifests itself in the radar cross section (RCS) pattern of realistic targets for horizontal polarization and grazing angles of incidence.


The body here is the canard and it is a finite structure. Its surface expanse is called the 'electrical path'. The longer the surfave traveling wave remains on this path, the greater the energy loss thru 'leaky waves'.

In RCS control, the first rule is to limit the *AVAILABILITY* of surface disruption or surface discontinuity. Any body is a finite body to start so it is inevitable that there will be at least one and the first available surface disruption. For an aircraft, aerodynamics take highest priority so there must flight control surfaces. This give other available surface discontinuities such as main wings, horizontal and vertical stabilators, and additional stabilizating/control structures such as non-moveable fins, if necessary. Some designs, based on whatever mission they were intended to do, may have more or less of these surface discontinuities.

For example, the B-2 bomber...






If we discount minor surface discontinuities such as communincation antennas or panel gaps, we can see the B-2 have the least quantity of major available surface disruptions. The B-1 is next and the B-52 have the highest. The combination of advanced aerodynamics and mission intention enabled the B-2 to have, essentially, just one major surface disruption. The B-2 is a flying wing (singular) design and as such, it does not have a fuselage as commonly understood. It does not have two wings but only one. Or that its wing is its fuselage. But no matter which descriptor, the B-2 have only one major surface discontinuity -- itself. Then the discussion can move on to lesser surface disruptors such as panel seams, engine intakes, communincation antennas, air data probes, etc. All of these lesser surfave disruptors are common throughout all aircraft designs anyway.

So if we abide by the first rule about controlling the availability of surface disruptions, or radiators, regarding major structures, then the J-20 is a superior target than the F-22. Superior as in the higher quantity of radiators.

- The F-22 have six major radiators: two wings, two horizontal stabilators, and two vertical stabilators.
- The J-20 have eight major radiators: two canards, two wings, two underside stabilizating fins, and two vertical stabilators.

Sooner or later on a finite body, surface traveling waves must exit, if they are not attenuated (lost) in some ways. That loss could come from long electrical path that causes minute quantities of leaky waves that may be (not definite) lost inside the clutter rejection threshold. Additional losses could come from absorber but absorbers do have their own limitations and belongs to another discussion.

Now comes the 'Rayleigh Criterion' (keyword search).

Rayleigh Criterion | COSMOS


> The Rayleigh criterion specifies the minimum separation between two light sources that may be resolved into distinct objects.



https://www.boundless.com/physics/wave-optics/diffraction-2/rayleigh-criterion-2/


> According to the criteria, two point sources are considered just *resolved* (just distinguishable enough from each other to recognize two sources) *if the center of the diffraction pattern of one is directly overlapped by the first minimum of the diffraction pattern of the other.* If the distance is greater between these points, the sources are well resolved (i.e., they are easy to distingiush from each other). If the distance is smaller, they are not resolved (i.e., they cannot be distinguished from each other).


The astronomy sources may say 'light' sources, but the principle is applicable to non-visual EM wavelengths as well. Not sure what 'Chinese physics' say about this.

What this mean is that diffracted signals from the canards that impact the wings can be resolved by the seeking radar if the incident angle is sufficiently large.






Or put it another way:

- The canard produces its own returns from its leading edge.
- The diffracted signals from the trailing edge impact the wing.
- The wing's leading edge produces its own returns from two source signals: from the seeking radar and from the canards' diffracted signals.
- If the incident angles from all sources are sufficiently apart, each structure will be distinctively resolvable by the seeking radar.

From the image above containing the Rafale, the MIG 1.44, and the J-20, we can see diverse incident angles from two mechanisms:

- The cant angle of the canards in relation to the wings.
- The elevation difference between the canards and the wings.

For the Rafale, we have cant angle and elevation difference. For the 1.44 we have elevation difference. For the J-20 we have cant angle. The seeking radar will definitely resolve the canards and the wings for the Rafale and 1.44, and highly probable for the J-20 for the same major structures.

The reason I am willing to concede to 'highly probable' for the J-20 is because its canards have roots that are in the same plane as the wings, unlike the Rafale. But their cant angle seems to be very similar so their trailing edge diffracted signals will arrive at the wings at different incidence compare to the F-22.

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## gambit

But...What if the seeking radar is from positions other than frontal?






High quality beamforming produces beams of 3-5 deg. Some really high quality systems produce beams as fine as 2 deg. Assume the seeking radar is mechanically swept. If the distance is close enough, as in within visual range (WVR), the beam may see each tip individually at slightly different time because beam spread is not sufficient.

Assuming the distance is WVR...When the beam impact the canard, there will be diffracted signals off the canard and on to the wing, according to real physics, not 'Chinese physics'. The wing will produce returns from two source signals: from the seeking radar and from the canard's diffracted signals. The problem for the J-20 here is the radar incident approach. The seeking radar will see two tip diffraction signals: wing and canard. The Rayleigh Criterion will be even more apparent from the 9 o'clock position because the structures' tips are so further apart. Whether individually each is weak enough to be buried below the clutter rejection threshold is for another discussion. The relevant question here is how much do the canards contribute to the overall RCS value. So even if the canards and wings are not resolvable from the frontal aspect, they will be resolvable from the sides.

What about beyond visual range (BVR)?

Radar resolution cell states...

Definition: radar resolution cell


> The volume of space that is occupied by a radar pulse and that is determined by the pulse duration and the horizontal and vertical beamwidths of the transmitting radar. Note: *The radar cannot distinguish between two separate objects that lie within the same resolution cell.*








So at BVR distance, the tips will not be resolvable under the Rayleigh Criterion.

Is this argument is applicable to the PAK and the F-22 as well since both have rear horizontal stabilators that are sufficiently physically apart from the wings? Yes, but for the PAK and the F-22, their wings and canards tips are closer to each other than the canards to wings on the J-20, to resolve them on the PAK and the F-22 will require closer distance to within the WVR distance.

We can see the differences in distance between the tips here...






Note: The Rayleigh Criterion does not exists in 'Chinese physics'.

Now comes the plate...






From this perspective, the seeking radar, even at 100 km distance, is effectively looking at the starboard plate. The Rayleigh Criterion is always in play. This plate (canard) probably overwhelms lesser reflections from nearby smaller structures so those smaller structures will not be resolvable, but when presented with a plate, smaller contributors are not needed anyway.

And this is why the J-20's canards are questionable in terms of RCS contributorship, as in positively contributing.

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## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> So if we abide by the first rule about controlling the availability of surface disruptions, or radiators, regarding major structures, then the J-20 is a superior target than the F-22. Superior as in the higher quantity of radiators.
> 
> - The F-22 have six major radiators: two wings, two horizontal stabilators, and two vertical stabilators.
> - The J-20 have eight major radiators: two canards, two wings, two underside stabilizating fins, and two vertical stabilators.



Not really.

The F-22 also has rather large gaps around the inlets. In fact, they're more than just panel gaps. They're more like a cavity.


















> - The diffracted signals from the trailing edge impact the wing.



Please produce a diagram showing how this happens, and most importantly how this interaction generates a radar signal that returns to the enemy radar.

After you're done with that, please provide an analysis of the F-22 under the same standards.

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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> Not really.
> 
> The F-22 also has rather large gaps around the inlets. In fact, they're more than just panel gaps. They're more like a cavity.


And I explained them as lesser radiators. We are talking about major radiators here.



j20blackdragon said:


> Please produce a diagram showing how this happens, and most importantly how this interaction generates a radar signal that returns to the enemy radar.
> 
> After you're done with that, please provide an analysis of the F-22 under the same standards.


See these...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/207796-project-310-news-discussions-72.html#post4135557

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/207796-project-310-news-discussions-72.html#post4135592

Too difficult to understand...??? Looks like it...


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## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> And I explained them as lesser radiators. We are talking about major radiators here.



A panel gap is a lesser radiator.

This guy can probably fit his entire arm in that gap/cavity next to the F-22's inlets.

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## j20blackdragon

gambit said:


> See these...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/207796-project-310-news-discussions-72.html#post4135557
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/207796-project-310-news-discussions-72.html#post4135592
> 
> Too difficult to understand...??? Looks like it...



You mean this crazy diagram?






Why is the incident beam coming in from the side?

The F-22 wouldn't be stealthy under a scenario like this either.

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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> You mean this crazy diagram?


No more than yours...



j20blackdragon said:


> Why is the incident beam coming in from the side?
> 
> The F-22 wouldn't be stealthy under a scenario like this either.


You asked on why the J-20's canards are suspicious regarding the J-20's RCS. I gave it to you. You clearly do not have the necessary intelligence to grasp even basic scientific principles that are available for free. But long time readers who are smarter than you recognized that I do not seek to change minds of stupid people like you but to explain to interested laymen who are willing to exercise critical thinking and do the research on the keywords I provided.


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## Dongfeng

gambit said:


> No more than yours...
> 
> 
> You asked on why the J-20's canards are suspicious regarding the J-20's RCS. I gave it to you. You clearly do not have the necessary intelligence to grasp even basic scientific principles that are available for free. But long time readers who are smarter than you recognized that I do not seek to change minds of stupid people like you but to explain to interested laymen who are willing to exercise critical thinking and do the research on the keywords I provided.



He has countered all your arguments and you have nothing but personal insults to reply back with. You've run out of ideas it seems.

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## rcrmj

Dongfeng said:


> He has countered all your arguments and you have nothing but personal insults to reply back with. You've run out of ideas it seems.



what can you expect from a pathetic loner&#65311; the longer you argue with him and when he runs out of argument, he will start using his 'Alpha weapon'`which is by calling you either conscript rejects or he had 'served' in the army (in reality a maintenance guy)..

thats all he has got which makes his copy paste irrelevant later on

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## gambit

> Dongfeng said:
> 
> 
> 
> He has countered all your arguments and you have nothing but personal insults to reply back with. You've run out of ideas it seems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rcrmj said:
> 
> 
> 
> what can you expect from a pathetic loner&#65311; the longer you argue with him and when he runs out of argument, he will start using his 'Alpha weapon'`which is by calling you either conscript rejects or he had 'served' in the army (in reality a maintenance guy)..
> 
> thats all he has got which makes his copy paste irrelevant later on
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Only in your dreams that any of you could 'counter' anything. The fact is that *ALL* of you learned from me about this subject. None of you have anything relevant to contribute.


----------



## gambit

rcrmj said:


> and this 50 years old brat stunts again``


Hey, buddy...Your friend believes that the U-turn arrows...






...Illustrate the exact and only behavior of surface waves on a structure. Do *YOU* believe the same?


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## j20blackdragon

Just ignore gambit's trolling everybody.

If you want to know how edge diffraction works, here are 3 diagrams from actual professionals.
















The leading and trailing edges of a stealth aircraft have identical sweep angles to redirect enemy radar signals to a specific direction, away from the direction of flight because the enemy is assumed to be in front of you. This is called planform alignment.






Are the J-20's canards planform aligned? Sure they are. Just remember that the trailing edge of the canards has the same angular alignment as the trailing edge of the opposite main wing.






And to top it off, Boeing just unveiled their sixth generation concept and it has canards. Is Boeing wrong as well? Of course not.






Boeing unveils updated F/A-XX sixth-gen fighter concept

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## gambit

j20blackdragon said:


> Just ignore gambit's trolling everybody.


Actually, intelligent readers ignored your trolling a long time ago. They have now seen how 'Chinese physics' works.



j20blackdragon said:


> If you want to know how edge diffraction works, here are 3 diagrams from actual professionals.


Actually...That is not *HOW* edge diffraction works. Those are the *RESULTS OF THE RE-DIRECTION* of edge diffraction signals.

You cannot even tell the difference between methods/modes and results...???


----------



## Broccoli



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## grey boy 2




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## Kompromat

PL-12











3D printed panel.











Back to the ground tests.

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## Kompromat




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## cnleio

Share a big one, 2484 x 5000

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## giant panda



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## Major Shaitan Singh




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## cirr

New engine is nearly ready for this baby&#65281;

Looking forward to test flights using the new engine starting next year&#65281;

PS thrust-weight ratio of 9&#65292;with possibility for further upgrades&#12290;

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## cirr

Maximum dry engine thrust&#65288;without afterburners&#65289;had an increase of 464 daN rather than the design value of 200 daN.

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## bhedgehog

A just reported J31 new test flight at 2013-7-17 12:01 Beijng time.

I have been wondering if there is any thing going wrong, because the test flight has been suspended for quite a while. OK, here it is!


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## giant panda



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## Kompromat

Very clear image indeed.

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## canadian icehole

@cnleio or anyone else that knows:

It's been claimed that the Project 310 plane have failed to win the contract for China's next carrier-based stealth fighter last month. The 611 Institute (CAC???) have won the competition and the first flight is expected by 2015.

What's the word on the street regarding this claim?


----------



## cnleio

canadian icehole said:


> @cnleio or anyone else that knows:
> 
> It's been claimed that the Project 310 plane have failed to win the contract for China's next carrier-based stealth fighter last month. The 611 Institute (CAC???) have won the competition and the first flight is expected by 2015.
> 
> What's the word on the street regarding this claim?


Yes, most rumors said ChengDu 611 Institute won the navy fighter contract. But one thing, i can sure that J-31(project 310 by ShengYang 601 Institute) really a project by SAC self-raised funds, not like ChengDu J-20 a national project selected by PLA military.

Future PLAN's carrier-based figher will be some J-10 improved version and next-gen fighter developed from J-20. Well they just told me that.

About the destiny of project 310 ... nobody know yet ... still a prototype i think it's only one way for ShengYang 601 Institute to continue development of project 310, just export it to foreign buyers who interested in J-31.

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## canadian icehole

cnleio said:


> Yes, most rumors said ChengDu 611 Institute won the navy fighter contract. But one thing, i can sure that J-31(project 310 by ShengYang 601 Institute) really a project by SAC self-raised funds, not like ChengDu J-20 a national project selected by PLA military.



The Project 310 fighter may be privately funded but SAC was trying to get the Navy contract, did they not?

Also, didn't CAC J-20 had a competitor?




cnleio said:


> Future PLAN's carrier-based figher will be some J-10 improved version and next-gen fighter developed from J-20. Well they just told me that.
> 
> *About the destiny of project 310 ... nobody know yet ... still a prototype i think it's only one way for ShengYang 601 Institute to continue development of project 310, just export it to foreign buyers who interested in J-31*.




SAC is going to have a problem selling this fighter. AFAIK, customers won't buy it if the host nation's military rejects it.


----------



## cnleio

canadian icehole said:


> The Project 310 fighter may be privately funded but SAC was trying to get the Navy contract, did they not?
> Also, didn't CAC J-20 had a competitor?


SAC lost again, J-31 might GAME OVER.

I heard this from CAC won the naval competition.













canadian icehole said:


> SAC is going to have a problem selling this fighter. AFAIK, customers won't buy it if the host nation's military rejects it.


They can accept joint develop to attract investments from foreign countries or buyers. 

Come on guys, let's design next-gen stealth fighter together ~!  

As long as the reasonable price, China can provide the whole J-31 assembly lines. Expensive F-35 or Cheaper J-31, everyone can make a choice.


----------



## That Guy

I doubt that the project is dead, after all the hyping, I think the project is going ahead and will be offered to foreign markets like originally planned.


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## That Guy

cnleio said:


> SAC lost again, J-31 might GAME OVER.
> 
> I heard this from CAC won the naval competition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can accept joint develop to attract investments from foreign countries or buyers.
> 
> Come on guys, let's design next-gen stealth fighter together ~!
> 
> As long as the reasonable price, China can provide the whole J-31 assembly lines. Expensive F-35 or Cheaper J-31, everyone can make a choice.



The navalized J-20 looks too ridiculous, I doubt it's anything more than a CGI artist having fun.


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

giant panda said:


>



Is there a reason why the nuzzles were painted in black or if it's just light effect?


----------



## cnleio

That Guy said:


> The navalized J-20 looks too ridiculous, I doubt it's anything more than a CGI artist having fun.



First confirmed then CGI out. It's truth.


----------



## That Guy

cnleio said:


> First confirmed then CGI out. It's truth.



Well, has it been confirmed by an official source? We get a lot of CGIs of aircrafts that never see the light of day.

Anyways, the J-31 was being privately funded, and I'm still pretty sure that the fighter will be available for export like originally planned.

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## cirr

J-31 test flights 18.08.2013&#65306;

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

^ very interesting, any new video?

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## cirr

A derivative of the J-31 is expected in 2014&#12290;

Interesting and exciting time ahead&#12290;

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> A derivative of the J-31 is expected in 2014&#12290;
> 
> Interesting and exciting time ahead&#12290;



Who told you this?


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon



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## That Guy

cirr said:


> J-31 test flights 18.08.2013&#65306;



See? I told everyone that the project wasn't cancelled, and everyone called me crazy.

...

Actually, they ignored me completely, BUT I WAS RIGHT!

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## cnleio

8.23 flight

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## cirr

cnleio said:


> 8.23 flight



which is said to have lasted some 40 mins&#12290;

It is apparent that test frequency has been upped of late&#12290;


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## cirr

Video of J-31&#65288;310&#65289;&#8216;s recent test flight&#65306;

http://v.ifeng.com/include/exterior.swf?guid=9e84fdc5-c144-4090-8071-a4d4d0bdded3&AutoPlay=false

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## cnleio

Youku video of J-31 flight:
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XNjAwNTU2NDA4/v.swf

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## cirr

Test flight at 15:40 today in drizzling rain&#12290;

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## cirr



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## That Guy

cirr said:


> Test flight at 15:40 today in drizzling rain&#12290;



lol, ouch. That's gotta be a jab at the F-35 which suffers major problems in both cold and rainy weather.

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## nomi007




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## xunzi

Got this from another site. Good news to potential buyer with limited budget who looking for cheap aircraft with stealth capability. 

-------------

Chinese new advance low cost 4.5+ stealth fighter jet "AFC" concept unveiled at the The 15th Beijing International Aviation exhibition, make no mistake, this ain't the J-31 &#22269;&#20135;&#20808;&#36827;&#27010;&#24565;&#25112;&#26426;&#38024;&#23545;&#22269;&#38469;&#24066;&#22330; &#20013;&#33322;&#24037;&#19994;&#22238;&#24212;&#26159;&#27516;31&#20256;&#35328;

&#20154;&#27665;&#32593;&#21271;&#20140;9&#26376;25&#26085;&#30005; &#65288;&#38379;&#22025;&#29738;&#65289;&#22312;&#20170;&#22825;&#24320;&#24149;&#30340;&#21271;&#20140;&#22269;&#38469;&#33322;&#23637;&#20013;&#65292;&#20013;&#33322;&#24037;&#19994;&#23637;&#20986;&#20102;&#20808;&#36827;&#27010;&#24565;&#25112;&#26426;&#12290;&#25454;&#20013;&#33322;&#24037;&#19994;&#24037;&#20316;&#20154;&#21592;&#20171;&#32461;&#65292;&#35813;&#27454;&#20808;&#36827;&#27010; &#24565;&#25112;&#26426;&#20027;&#35201;&#38024;&#23545;&#22269;&#38469;&#24066;&#22330;&#65292;&#30446;&#21069;&#22788;&#20110;&#27010;&#24565;&#30740;&#21046;&#38454;&#27573;&#65292;&#29992;&#20110;&#39564;&#35777;&#38544;&#24418;&#25216;&#26415;&#12289;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#25216;&#26415;&#12289;&#20808;&#36827;&#33322;&#30005;&#31995;&#32479; &#31561;&#20851;&#38190;&#25216;&#26415;&#12290;

&#38024;&#23545;&#35813;&#20808;&#36827;&#27010;&#24565;&#26426;&#26159;&#21542;&#23601;&#26159;&#27491;&#22312;&#35797;&#39134;&#30340;&#27516;-31&#30340;&#38382;&#39064;&#65292;&#24037;&#20316;&#20154;&#21592;&#20570;&#20102;&#22238;&#24212;&#65292;&#31216;&#37027;&#21482;&#26159;&#32593;&#19978;&#30340;&#35828;&#27861;&#12290;

&#12288;&#39134;&#26426;&#37319;&#29992;&#21333;&#24231;&#12289;&#21452;&#21457;&#12289;&#21452;&#22402;&#23614;&#12289;&#27491;&#24120;&#24335;&#24067;&#23616;&#65292;&#20855;&#26377;&#39640;&#38544;&#36523;&#12289;&#20302;&#25104;&#26412;&#12289;&#22823;&#36733;&#24377;&#37327;&#12289;&#22823;&#20316;&#25112;&#21322;&#24452;&#12289;&#24378;&#31995;&#32479;&#32508;&#21512;&#31561;&#29305; &#28857;&#65292;&#32508;&#21512;&#20316;&#25112;&#25928;&#33021;&#20248;&#20110;&#19977;&#20195;&#21322;&#21644;&#19977;&#20195;&#25913;&#25112;&#26007;&#26426;&#65292;&#19982;&#20856;&#22411;&#22235;&#20195;&#26426;&#22522;&#26412;&#30456;&#24403;&#12290;











































*The 15th Beijing International Aviation Exhibition Opening
*
Beijing, September 24 News reporter Liu Jin reports: The 15th Beijing International Air Show on September 25 to 28 at the National Convention Center. Airshow scale reached 17,000 square meters, increased by 40% last Legco . exhibition invited from 17 countries and regions, nearly 200 exhibitors, five national pavilions, Airbus, Boeing, Honeywell, Bombardier, Safran, the European aircraft materials, Bell Helicopter, Parker Aerospace and other famous aviation exhibitors.

Beijing air show organizing committee launched the 'Beijing Aviation Heritage Week' activities include: AVIC Cup - International UAV Innovation Grand Prix, China Aviation Science and Technology Conference, China UAV Summit & Exhibition, the Ninth laurel Awards ceremony, Chinese aviation maintenance summit, Badaling flight dynamic display and the First Beijing Yanqing General Aviation Tourism and Culture Festival.

The 15th Beijing International Aviation Exhibition Opening - Finance News

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## xunzi

More pictures...

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

GURU DUTT said:


> looks like a repelica of proposed AMCA/MCA bieng developed by HAL/DRDO& AAD to me wich i think chinese have lifted the design again



In the extremely unlikely event that what you posted is true, it will be the only way you can see your precious AMCA actually fly.

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## cnleio

SAC J-31 == AVIC == AFC



> *&#35813;&#27454;&#20808;&#36827;&#27010; &#24565;&#25112;&#26426;&#20027;&#35201;&#38024;&#23545;&#22269;&#38469;&#24066;&#22330;*&#65292;&#30446;&#21069;&#22788;&#20110;&#27010;&#24565;&#30740;&#21046;&#38454;&#27573;&#65292;&#29992;&#20110;&#39564;&#35777;&#38544;&#24418;&#25216;&#26415;&#12289;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#25216;&#26415;&#12289;&#20808;&#36827;&#33322;&#30005;&#31995;&#32479; &#31561;&#20851;&#38190;&#25216;&#26415;&#12290;
> *This advanced stealth fighter mainly target foreign market*, currently still concept developing to test new stealth technology, jet engine test, advanced avionics system test.



Well it seems this new stealth fighter is low cost China version of F-35, future will sell for foreign Airforce.


I think next-gen China fighter plan:

1. J-20 for PLA Airforce












2. AVIC (AFC) for sale (stealth fighter export)

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## Indischer

Which is the company that came up with the design? Was there one more agency other than Chengdu or Shenyang that was tasked with development of a 5th gen aircraft design?


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## cnleio

Huh... J-10A prepare for export ???

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## xunzi

Indischer said:


> Which is the company that came up with the design? Was there one more agency other than Chengdu or Shenyang that was tasked with development of a 5th gen aircraft design?


SAC. 

This plane is only in concept stage, a technology demonstration. It is probably a derivative version of the lesser J-31 for export. Without customer pre-ordering and funding, this plane might not see their day in foreign market.

It will be a sad day. This is a beautiful cheap stealth plane for developing country. Nice color contrast, beautiful pain job.

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## aliaselin

Of course it is not J-31, it is only "Project 310"
Only when accepted by PLAAF, then it can be called J-XX, and more probable J-21; at the moment, it is only project of AVIC, but not of Chinese army, just like S-37 and mig-1.44 for Russian.

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## Lightningbolt

aliaselin said:


> Of course it is not J-31, it is only "Project 310"
> Only when accepted by PLAAF, then it can be called J-XX, and more probable J-21; at the moment, it is only project of AVIC, but not of Chinese army, just like S-37 and mig-1.44 for Russian.



Exactly.

Only when a fighter is accepted into the PLAAF does the name become J-21 or J-31. Since the PLAAF hasn't bought this, it's called Project 310.

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## sweetgrape

GURU DUTT said:


> no bhai right now im having OLD MONK XXX rum with cola and some snaks


See, can't talk clear, you are very high, I think maybe your elder add new "seasoning" to ganges!


On the topic, we can invite our friendly country join the project, SAC also need joint project, not only for money!

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## satishkumarcsc

"Low cost" and "stealth" in the same sentence sounds really wierd.


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## S10

GURU DUTT said:


> looks like a repelica of proposed AMCA/MCA bieng developed by HAL/DRDO& AAD to me wich i think chinese have lifted the design again


It's the J-31 marketed as the AFC for export in Beijing. The prototype has already flown in 2011. You mean to tell me we stole your paper concept despite having an actual prototype? Do you process your words in your brain before you type them out?

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## Anubis

Does anyone know the unit price?


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## Pak47

This along with J-31 are potential Paf planes. 

Who knows : might be made with PAF in mind.. Only for export like JF-17.

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## Irfan Baloch

GURU DUTT said:


> looks like a repelica of proposed AMCA/MCA bieng developed by HAL/DRDO& AAD to me wich i think chinese have lifted the design again



why you had to make a spoiler post? I was expecting a TOT post from my TOT intensive Pakistani members who want that every country unfortunate to be a brother or friend of Pakistanis should surrender its technology with full transfer and pay for it as well

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## That Guy

GURU DUTT said:


> looks like a repelica of proposed AMCA/MCA bieng developed by HAL/DRDO& AAD to me wich i think chinese have lifted the design again



That's completely false and you know it. The AMCA looks nothing like this.

AMCA :

















This plane:


















Completely different design.

If this isn't the J-31, then it certainly based on the J-31, considering the design similarities. Don't keep making these baseless and clearly wrong claims that China's copying India. India has nothing that China wants to copy.

In fact, the AMCA has more similarities to the Japanese Mitsubishi ATD-X than any Chinese design.

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## Cyberian

It just looks same as the J-31 to me.

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## khanboy007

low cost and stealth.....something's fishy ?!?!?!?!


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## Genesis

Since this is a stealth fighter, sort of, BUT, still 4th gen. IT would be one of the leading 4th gen fighters, so wouldn't the similarities be more to the Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle than say any of the 5th gen fighters.

as to cheap, it's cheap relatively. the American Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle costs 100 million and will most likely cost more by the time the deal is signed. So cheap, yes, but only relatively.

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## That Guy

Genesis said:


> Since this is a stealth fighter, sort of, BUT, still 4th gen. IT would be one of the leading 4th gen fighters, so wouldn't the similarities be more to the Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle than say any of the 5th gen fighters.
> 
> as to cheap, it's cheap relatively. the American Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle costs 100 million and will most likely cost more by the time the deal is signed. So cheap, yes, but only relatively.



At this point, we know little to nothing about this plane, so speculating on the price/package is a bit early in my opinion.


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## Chinese-Dragon

S10 said:


> It's the J-31 marketed as the AFC for export in Beijing. The prototype has already flown in 2011. You mean to tell me we stole your paper concept despite having an actual prototype? Do you process your words in your brain before you type them out?





That Guy said:


> That's completely false and you know it. The AMCA looks nothing like this.



The Indians here are making fun of themselves as usual. 

We actually have a working and flying prototype.

Whereas the Indian AMCA crap, is still just "a concept on paper". And yet they think we copied them? 

Hell, India still hasn't inducted even the LCA yet, let alone anything else. There is some big joke going on here.

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## UKBengali

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The Indians here are making fun of themselves as usual.
> 
> We actually have a working and flying prototype.
> 
> Whereas the Indian AMCA crap is still just a concept on paper. And yet they think we copied them? :ROFL:
> 
> Hell, India still hasn't inducted even the LCA yet, let alone anything else. There is some big joke going on here.



Indians love to talk but actually make very little

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## hurt

&#25552;&#19968;&#20010;&#38382;&#39064;&#65292;&#20013;&#22269;&#30446;&#21069;&#26576;&#20123;&#35760;&#32773;&#25991;&#23383;&#33021;&#21147;&#24456;&#24046;&#65292;&#23545;&#20110;&#36825;&#26465;&#26032;&#38395;&#20013;&#30340;&#65282;&#37027;&#21482;&#26159;&#32593;&#19978;&#30340;&#35828;&#27861;&#65282;&#38750;&#24120;&#26377;&#27495;&#20041;&#65292;&#25105;&#35273;&#24471;&#35774;&#35745;&#20154;&#21592;&#21542;&#35748;J-31&#36825;&#20010;&#21517;&#23383;&#30340;&#21487;&#33021;&#24615;&#26356;&#22823;&#65292;&#32780;&#19981;&#26159;&#21542;&#35748;&#20004;&#32773;&#30340;&#20851;&#31995;

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## hurt

SUPARCO said:


> It just looks same as the J-31 to me.



I think that the designers just don't apply the name"J-31".


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## That Guy

hurt said:


> I think that the designers just don't apply the name"J-31".



The J-31 was never the name, but from what is being mentioned, it is most likely just an export version of the fighter and the domestic one is still being called Project-310.


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## cirr

31001 is a tech and concept demonstrator&#12290;

It is a platform from which there will be derived a variety of 5th stealth jets&#12290;

The first result of such effort will be on display in 2014
&#12290;
Exciting time ahead&#12290;

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## cnleio

Beautiful ~!

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## damiendehorn

UKBengali said:


> Indians love to talk but actually make very little



The Indians should be world leaders in making balloons, as they seem to be full of hot air.....

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## Hafizzz

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The Indians here are making fun of themselves as usual.
> We actually have a working and flying prototype.
> 
> Whereas the Indian AMCA crap, is still just "a concept on paper". And yet they think we copied them?
> Hell, India still hasn't inducted even the LCA yet, let alone anything else. There is some big joke going on here.



Indians will not be the ones laughing at the end but it will be the Chinese. China will be self-reliance while India will continue to the World's Top Arms Importer !

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## Anubis

That Guy said:


> That's completely false and you know it. The AMCA looks nothing like this.
> 
> AMCA :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This plane:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Completely different design.
> 
> If this isn't the J-31, then it certainly based on the J-31, considering the design similarities. Don't keep making these baseless and clearly wrong claims that China's copying India. India has nothing that China wants to copy.
> 
> In fact, the AMCA has more similarities to the Japanese Mitsubishi ATD-X than any Chinese design.



Did you notice that the AMCA looks like the YF23 Black Widow??


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## That Guy

Anubis said:


> Did you notice that the AMCA looks like the YF23 Black Widow??



Yeah, but there are noticeable differences, so the design is only inspired by the black widow. This would mean that it's not a true multi role fighter (neither was the black widow) and will be limited in similar ways that the black widow was. It'll probably have superior stealth than most of the 5th gens, but will have limited capabilities in the area of air-superiority.

Then again, it's only a paper plane at the moment, so my assessment is probably completely wrong.

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## Echo_419

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The Indians here are making fun of themselves as usual.
> 
> We actually have a working and flying prototype.
> 
> Whereas the Indian AMCA crap, is still just "a concept on paper". And yet they think we copied them?
> 
> Hell, India still hasn't inducted even the LCA yet, let alone anything else. There is some big joke going on here.



Ignore that dude 
Probably trolling,most Indians know that AMCA is a paper plane right now 

Anyways is it a variant of J-31 bcauz it looks just like it 
& are there more than the 2 fighter designing companies [Shenyang & Chengdu] in china


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## faithfulguy

UKBengali said:


> Indians love to talk but actually make very little



I would disagree. Indians make a lot of facebook pages about Indian superpower. And India make a lot of articles about being the superpower. They even made a feature film about being a superpower, a racist superpower, that was posted on storm front.

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## Jade

Except Pakistan nobody would buy it. Even for Pakistan, if given a choice between the outdated f16 and this jet, they would choose f16.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Jade said:


> Except Pakistan nobody would buy it. Even for Pakistan, if given a choice between the outdated f16 and this jet, they would choose f16.



You love making nonsensical predictions, don't you?

Like when you said that China would extradite Snowden back to America. Only 1 day later and you were proved wrong.

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## Jade

Chinese-Dragon said:


> You love making nonsensical predictions, don't you?
> 
> Like when you said that China would extradite Snowden back to America. Only 1 day later and you were proved wrong.



I said China would not shelter Snowden. If Snowden would have been there in China longer, he would have been extradited to US.


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## Lightningbolt

@Aeronaut I think it's time to give this Indian troll a long ban.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Jade said:


> I said China would not shelter Snowden. If Snowden would have been there in China longer, he would have been extradited to US.



What a shameless liar. 

Here, read your own posts:



Jade said:


> *Bull$hit. This Eddie guy is trying to escape extradition to US, but I doubt China has guts to deny US the extradition. For sure, this guy is going to spend rest of his life behind bars.*





Jade said:


> *China will extradite this guy. China is no Sweden. He did a terrible mistake to 'hide' in China. He should have taken refuge in any of the European union country.*



You are so shameless, I in fact quoted these two posts to you before, when you denied saying it before.

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## Kompromat

Lightningbolt said:


> @Aeronaut I think it's time to give this Indian troll a long ban.



He's out of this thread.

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## S10

Jade said:


> Except Pakistan nobody would buy it. Even for Pakistan, if given a choice between the outdated f16 and this jet, they would choose f16.


That's what they said about our SAM too until someone paid 3 billions for it.

You know what nobody buys? LCA.

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## Chinese-Dragon

S10 said:


> That's what they said about our SAM too until someone paid 3 billions for it.
> 
> You know what nobody buys? LCA.



Even the Indian armed forces themselves don't want the LCA. That should tell you something.

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## Icewolf

Damn this baby looks amazing.... China you are killin em....

As for the Indian trolls...
First finish LCA Tejas.. Then act like China copied you


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## cnleio



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## Kompromat

Simply elegant man, this thing is a beauty on wings!

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## Hyperion

You know what's the problem here? We need more info on it's RCS & performance. We are getting so many pretty pics, however, main juicy stuff is missing. 

@cnleio, mate, try to get us some specs kindly! 



Aeronaut said:


> Simply elegant man, this thing is a beauty on wings!

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## cnleio

Hyperion said:


> You know what's the problem here? We need more info on it's RCS & performance. We are getting so many pretty pics, however, main juicy stuff is missing.
> 
> @cnleio, mate, try to get us some specs kindly!


310 project's RCS & performance ... now i also didn't read any information about J-31's parameters, more mysterious than J-20 project. I will add until read latest information from China news & forums.

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## Hyperion

That's the most important aspect for such a platform. We have been seeing all these pics, however, this forum being a strategy page, what we require the most is specs. 

If you could do that, it would be great. Thanks! 



cnleio said:


> 310 project's RCS & performance ... now i also didn't read any information about J-31's parameters, more mysterious than J-20 project. I will add until read latest information from China news & forums.



@Hu Songshan, mate, if you could also pitch in, it would be great!

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## Luftwaffe

Hyperion said:


> That's the most important aspect for such a platform. We have been seeing all these pics, however, this forum being a strategy page, what we require the most is specs.
> 
> If you could do that, it would be great. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> @Hu Songshan, mate, if you could also pitch in, it would be great!



Hi, the ingredients you want to know are secret because this is effectively termed "Stealth" Jet, the information is suppose to be kept secret. At the max the only information available later on would be Engine, Ejection seat, WVR/BVR missiles, cannon, roughly the radius this thing can fly up to.


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## That Guy

I'm still wondering when the second prototype will make it's appearance. The J-20 didn't take nearly as long.


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## cirr

Through the use of advanced 3D-printing（additive manufacturing）technology，the structural integrity rate by weight of the J-31 has reached a world-topping 40%：

http://114.113.227.14/epaper/zghkb/2013/09/28/A04/story/361533.shtml


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## cirr

Multiple Test Flights Today（31.10.2013）

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## cirr

Test flights on 07.11.2013：


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## Beast

Both engine on it looks different.


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## Kompromat

*New engine?






*


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## SQ8

That Guy said:


> I'm still wondering when the second prototype will make it's appearance. The J-20 didn't take nearly as long.


Private project? Hence capitalism restraints.


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## Kompromat




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## SQ8

That Guy said:


> lol, ouch. That's gotta be a jab at the F-35 which suffers major problems in both cold and rainy weather.


As such it was lightning.. and that problems has been solved. But the F-35 program is a mess with other things in it. 


Aeronaut said:


>



Considering that the J-31 supposedly uses the Rd-93.. the numbers for the engine are incorrect. The Mig-29K uses the Rd-33MK which has a max thrust of 88Kn and not 80.. and greater dry thrust as well.


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## Kompromat

Oscar said:


> As such it was lightning.. and that problems has been solved. But the F-35 program is a mess with other things in it.
> 
> Considering that the J-31 supposedly uses the Rd-93.. the numbers for the engine are incorrect. The Mig-29K uses the Rd-33MK which has a max thrust of 88Kn and not 80.. and greater dry thrust as well.




I think its based on projected WS-13.

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## cnleio

*J-31 GO ！！！















*

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## xhw1986

*Shenyang designing bomber version of J-31 stealth fighter*






A bomber version of the Shenyang J-31, China's second fifth-generation stealth fighter, is likely to be designed by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation in the near future to meet the demands of the People's Liberation Army Air Force, the Beijing-based Sina Military Network reported on Dec. 30.

Since both the Chengdu J-20 — the country's first stealth fighter prototype — and the J-31 are currently developed as fighters with the primary mission of engaging enemy aircraft in aerial combat, the Sina Military Network stated that what the PLA Air Force needs now is a stealth aircraft that is capable of attacking ground targets as a tactical bomber. Currently, the Xian JH-7 bomber's range is too short to provide long-range close air support to the PLA ground force while it is too expensive to call in the Xian H-6 strategic bomber for such a tactical mission.

The only suitable aircraft China is currently in possession of to conduct long-range attack missions is the Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK2 fighter. However, Sina Military Network said the Su-30MK2 can be easily detected by enemy radar. This is the reason why stealth aircraft with larger weapons bays to carry a larger payload are extremely important for the PLA Air Force. Photos recently released on the internet suggest Shenyang Aircraft Corporation is building a bomber based on the stealth fighter.

In the article, the Sina Military Network explained that a stealth fighter bomber based on the design of the J-31 will be far superior to the JH-7 and the Su-30MK2. By reducing the J-31's capability as a fighter, Shenyang Aircraft Corporation can increase its combat range, payload and stealth capability to make it the first real tactical bomber in the history of the PLA Air Force. This is what China needs to forge a modern air force, Sina Military Network said.

WantChinaTimes


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## Kompromat

It means that the air craft would have to be larger.


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## UKBengali

Aeronaut said:


> I think its based on projected WS-13.



There are rumours that there is an upgraded WS-13A version in the works with 100KN of thrust.

Since the J-31 is not likely to be ready for another 4-5 years, it is quite possible that it will be powered by the WS-13A and not the weaker WS-13 with 86KN of thrust.


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## Kompromat

UKBengali said:


> There are rumours that there is an upgraded WS-13A version in the works with 100KN of thrust.
> 
> Since the J-31 is not likely to be ready for another 4-5 years, it is quite possible that it will be powered by the WS-13A and not the weaker WS-13 with 86KN of thrust.




Its good for the JF-17 Progra, too. A 100kn thrust engine will do wonders to its combat performance.

J-31 should be procured instead of J-10B. PAF should delay its procurement plan till 2020, save up and buy J-31s. By then it would be a mature platform and it would be a lot cheaper to operate because it would be powered by the same engine as the JF-17


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## UKBengali

Aeronaut said:


> Its good for the JF-17 Progra, too. A 100kn thrust engine will do wonders to its combat performance.
> 
> J-31 should be procured instead of J-10B. PAF should delay its procurement plan till 2020, save up and buy J-31s. By then it would be a mature platform and it would be a lot cheaper to operate because it would be powered by the same engine as the JF-17




It makes sense that Pakistan would want to spend it's scarce funds on buying J-31s rather than J-10B.

J-10B will be a good fighter but no match for PAK-FA that India will be getting from 2020 onwards.

Pakistan would be the 1st country that would be offered this fighter and so no question of not being able to start getting aircraft from 2020 onwards, which is around the same time that India starts inducting PAK-FAs.


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## Kompromat

UKBengali said:


> It makes sense that Pakistan would want to spend it's scarce funds on buying J-31s rather than J-10B.
> 
> J-10B will be a good fighter but no match for PAK-FA that India will be getting from 2020 onwards.
> 
> Pakistan would be the 1st country that would be offered this fighter and so no question of not being able to start getting aircraft from 2020 onwards, which is around the same time that India starts inducting PAK-FAs.



PAK-FA will be China specific, but yes it does tip the balance of power, therefore it makes sense for PAF to make a long term commitment to this program.

We may get more new Block-52+ soon too. We are also looking for surplus F-16s that we could upgrade to Block52 standards by MLU - MIII.

With all upgraded F-16s, AIM-120C5, fully integrated with an AESA AEW&Cs, 250 JF-17s with SD-10As, in flight refueling, AEW&Cs integration, and a networked air defense net, we are not exactly a sitting duck.

It gives time to PAF to save up and leap to the 5th generation. It will not only have operational and industrial benefits but it also will introduce an all new war fighting philosophy to PAF.

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## Donatello

If the J-31 has same engines as JF-17, then yes it makes sense.

But then, if you really have a plane that cannot be seen by radar, it makes having JF-17/F-16s useless.


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## UKBengali

Aeronaut said:


> PAK-FA will be China specific, but yes it does tip the balance of power, therefore it makes sense for PAF to make a long term commitment to this program.
> 
> We may get more new Block-52+ soon too. We are also looking for surplus F-16s that we could upgrade to Block52 standards by MLU - MIII.
> 
> With all upgraded F-16s, AIM-120C5, fully integrated with an AESA AEW&Cs, *250 JF-17s* with SD-10As, in flight refueling, AEW&Cs integration, and a networked air defense net, we are not exactly a sitting duck.
> 
> It gives time to PAF to save up and leap to the 5th generation. It will not only have operational and industrial benefits but it also will introduce an all new war fighting philosophy to PAF.



I think that Indians would be unwise to underestimate the JF-17.

While not quite as good as Su-30MKI or Rafale, it won't be so much inferior that Indian pilots in these planes can be confident of easily defeating the Jf-17.


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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> Its good for the JF-17 Progra, too. A 100kn thrust engine will do wonders to its combat performance.
> 
> J-31 should be procured instead of J-10B. PAF should delay its procurement plan till 2020, save up and buy J-31s. By then it would be a mature platform and it would be a lot cheaper to operate because it would be powered by the same engine as the JF-17


 
I think there isn't any special procurement plan apart from 150 JF-17s, I however think an interim solution like J-10C [if its true to be rafalized type twin engine] would be a choice until Pakistan economy is strong enough by 2025 for a large order of J-31 or anything else. On the contrary block III/IV JF-17 could replace J-10B/C idea and focus on any possible future 5th Gen.

Call it foolish but what a marvel it would be in Pak scenario a stealth thunder with options like an Enclosed Weapons Pod (EWP) slender CFTs. We should learn from US they are doing all sort of things to F-18 E/F. This is our chance to focus on JF-17 and leave J-10, I completely disagree to people who think nothing can be done more to JF-17 apart from avionics look at what is going on with F-18s and F-15s, even if we have to bring much physical change to the airframe so be it, that is the reason evolution comes into place that is where F-16 stands today. The cost would still be so much lesser than we can give neighbor a run for its money and station the originally envisioned 250 that was slashed to 150.

Semi-Stealth 'Advanced Super Hornet' Completes First Phase of Test Flights | Defense Update:

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## Kompromat

@Luftwaffe

For such changes, a poweful engine is needed.

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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> For such changes, a poweful engine is needed.


 
Hi, aren't the Chinese working on WS-13/A, hope it would be ready by 2016.

It is already 7 Years one would hope by 9-10 Years the improved Engine would be ready for mass induction/production so exports can take place.


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## Kompromat

@Luftwaffe

Yea, my hopes are pinned on the WS-13A too.


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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> @Luftwaffe
> 
> Yea, my hopes are pinned on the WS-13A too.


 
Yep, eventually we would have to jump into this rapid modernization program field we can't let ourselves behind, JF-17 must not be stuck into the just 4th gen program alot can be learned and implement from Chinese 5th generation program it is a blessing for us in disguise a 4.5++ under 36m is still extremely cheap project compared to already overpriced Gripens/neighbor's 27 year old program.

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## Dazzler

today.....

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Dazzler said:


> today.....


 
China has revealled tooooo much of military informations these fews years to the world...is this consider as good new or bad new?


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## Genesis

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China has revealled tooooo much of military informations these fews years to the world...is this consider as good new or bad new?



good, weapons these days are more for show than actual use. The only opponent these things are built for is third world, a top military can shoot down even stealth planes, but not as easy for third world, or even possible. 

Not showing has two meanings, one is we have no conflicting interests, or in other words no interests, two is we suck.

Showing these weapons can keep US at bay while we do our thing. Keeping things secret is bad, because then there might be a real possibility of war. 

Besides, landing on the moon, having fifth gen fighters, carriers and all that increases our prestige and indirectly improves our economy by making our products look more legit.

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## lcloo

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China has revealled tooooo much of military informations these fews years to the world...is this consider as good new or bad new?


 
In peace time it is good to show your capability because that will be your deterance against war, if others think you are weak they will bully you.

In war time it is of course bad to show anything at all as your enemy will try to come out with counter-measure against your known capability.

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## cnleio

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> China has revealled tooooo much of military informations these fews years to the world...is this consider as good new or bad new?


Show our muscle to tell them do not piss me off.


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## Beast

Actually, PRC are still very modest and secretive.. ASAT, ICBM test and Hypersonic weapon are both leaked first by US intelligent which only forces CCP to admit it later.

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## gambit

Beast said:


> Actually, PRC are still very modest and secretive.. ASAT, ICBM test and Hypersonic weapon are both leaked first by US intelligent which only forces CCP to admit it later.


All weapons testings are to be as secretive as possible. China is no different than the US in this regard, but considering the US operated the F-117 for more than a decade with nothing but bad plastic scale models to hint at the program, it speaks to the operational security (OPSEC) imposed upon the program and the people that distinguishes one program from the other. But when it comes to missile weapons testing, ICBM-like in particular, launches cannot be hidden due to satellite monitoring.


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## shuttler

Beast said:


> Actually, PRC are still very modest and secretive.. ASAT, ICBM test and Hypersonic weapon are both leaked first by US intelligent which only forces CCP to admit it later.









when these 2 guys were standing on piles of snow on dirt, we obviously are not hiding that!

and they are saying we are not "transparent" WTF!


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## Obambam

shuttler said:


> when these 2 guys were standing on piles of snow on dirt, we obviously are not hiding that!
> 
> and they are saying we are not "transparent" WTF!



We are an embargoed country. We are 40+ years behind India's navy when it comes to operating an aircraft carrier and over half a century behind the US when it comes to rocket and propulsion technologies etc etc, so what do they expect? 

This cannot be helped, we will continue to roll things out 'S-L-O-W-L-Y'

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## 帅的一匹

shuttler said:


> when these 2 guys were standing on piles of snow on dirt, we obviously are not hiding that!
> 
> and they are saying we are not "transparent" WTF!


Those motherfuckers just want China strip her underwear and ready for *** probe. Transparent the ****!

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## 帅的一匹

Luftwaffe said:


> Hi, aren't the Chinese working on WS-13/A, hope it would be ready by 2016.
> 
> It is already 7 Years one would hope by 9-10 Years the improved Engine would be ready for mass induction/production so exports can take place.


Now the WS10A has been very matured on J11B, we shall put more enegy on WS13A and WS15. China will break through the engine predicment in year 2016, which is a very critical lead time in China's history. As long as the engines problems got figured out, China airforce will be running wild.

J10C will also cruise at super-sonic easily if China mount WS15 on it.

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## Genesis

wanglaokan said:


> Now the WS10A has been very matured on J11B, we shall put more enegy on WS13A and WS15. China will break through the engine predicment in year 2016, which is a very critical lead time in China's history. As long as the engines problems got figured out, China airforce will be running wild.
> 
> J10C will also cruise at super-sonic easily if China mount WS15 on it.



I heard J-10C is just a carrier variant, I may or may not have seen a picture of it, depending on real or not.


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## Akasa

Obambam said:


> We are an embargoed country. We are 40+ years behind India's navy when it comes to operating an aircraft carrier and over half a century behind the US when it comes to rocket and propulsion technologies etc etc, so what do they expect?
> 
> This cannot be helped, we will continue to roll things out 'S-L-O-W-L-Y'



China's late ascendancy in the carrier sector is not due to lack of technology or industrial capacity but rather the top brass' choice between a fleet of highly advanced nuclear submarines and a fleet of carriers.



wanglaokan said:


> Now the WS10A has been very matured on J11B, we shall put more enegy on WS13A and WS15. China will break through the engine predicment in year 2016, which is a very critical lead time in China's history. As long as the engines problems got figured out, China airforce will be running wild.
> 
> J10C will also cruise at super-sonic easily if China mount WS15 on it.



What's with the supposed J-10C?


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## Obambam

SinoSoldier said:


> China's late ascendancy in the carrier sector is not due to lack of technology or industrial capacity but rather the top brass' choice between a fleet of *highly advanced* nuclear submarines and a fleet of carriers.



According to some people, science and technologies are non existent in China. If that's what they think, then there is no reason for us to explain anything. To them we are just another North Korea of Asia and our military are filled with kids with fancy toys,

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## That Guy

What's going on with 310? We've gotten major updates with the J-20, but we're barely receiving any word about the J-31, other than a single picture.

[edit] My comment said J-12 instead of J-20


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## Beast

That Guy said:


> What's going on with 310? We've gotten major updates with the J-12, but we're barely receiving any word about the J-31, other than a single picture.



Its a private venture by Shenyang and not supported by PLAAF. so what do you think?


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## siegecrossbow

shuttler said:


> when these 2 guys were standing on piles of snow on dirt, we obviously are not hiding that!
> 
> and they are saying we are not "transparent" WTF!



The guys at Chengdu have it easy. At least they don't need to wait around in the snow.


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## longlong

Obambam said:


> According to some people, science and technologies are non existent in China. If that's what they think, then there is no reason for us to explain anything. To them we are just another North Korea of Asia and our military are filled with kids with fancy toys,



Those biased people had never been to China and had no idea what happened there.

They are hard working to compete with EU, US, JP, KR.

And they do savings and do not pray daily.


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## That Guy

Beast said:


> Its a private venture by Shenyang and not supported by PLAAF. so what do you think?


Still, I find it odd that they'd keep mum about it for so long when Chengdu is releasing so much.


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## Kompromat

@cirr 

Why we ain't seeing the 2nd prototype of the J-31 ?

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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> View attachment 14910
> 
> View attachment 14911


 
The Aircraft has considerably smallest RCS in stealth class seeing from its profile. Although it is a prototype clearly inspiration came from F-22 nothing wrong with it specially those wing tips edges should be more like F-22s. Curious how many might be built if the program continues.


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## Kompromat

Luftwaffe said:


> The Aircraft has considerably smallest RCS in stealth class seeing from its profile. Although it is a prototype clearly inspiration came from F-22 nothing wrong with it specially those wing tips edges should be more like F-22s. Curious how many might be built if the program continues.



I am hoping to see a new prototype soon.

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## 帅的一匹

I think China/Saudi/Pakistan shall JV the J3001 project, what about the proposal?

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## Kompromat

wanglaokan said:


> I think China/Saudi/Pakistan shall JV the J3001 project, what about the proposal?



This will be such a real deal.









You can see the conformal weapons bay.

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## lcloo

wanglaokan said:


> I think China/Saudi/Pakistan shall JV the J3001 project, what about the proposal?



Indeed they should consider seriously because since 3001 is already flying and in testing stage, that will save them many years off if they start from scratch, and they can incorporate their air defence requirement into the final design of project of 3001. And no restriction, no kill switch, no sanction.


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## Sasquatch

wanglaokan said:


> I think China/Saudi/Pakistan shall JV the J3001 project, what about the proposal?





lcloo said:


> Indeed they should consider seriously because since 3001 is already flying and in testing stage, that will save them many years off if they start from scratch, and they can incorporate their air defence requirement into the final design of project of 3001. And no restriction, no kill switch, no sanction.



Think of it in a wider perspective, Saudi Arabia is a pro western country. Egypt which left the Soviet sphere of influence gave access to Soviet weaponry to the USA for studying. This happened also with Soviet defector Mig-25 in Japan which gave way to the US to build the F-15. Anyway they could pass it along for the US to study hence why we should be wary of selling it to highly pro western countries.

Finally without the WS-13 engine which is still in testing the 310 project is years away, best look to Asian countries like Malaysia or Indonesia( If the KFX Project fails) for JV.

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## 帅的一匹

Pakistan is away China's top priority to cooperate with.

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## Luftwaffe

Hu Songshan said:


> Think of it in a wider perspective, Saudi Arabia is a pro western country. Egypt which left the Soviet sphere of influence gave access to Soviet weaponry to the USA for studying. This happened also with Soviet defector Mig-25 in Japan which gave way to the US to build the F-15. Anyway they could pass it along for the US to study hence why we should be wary of selling it to highly pro western countries.
> 
> Finally without the WS-13 engine which is still in testing the 310 project is years away, best look to Asian countries like Malaysia or Indonesia( If the KFX Project fails) for JV.


 
I don't know about indoensia how can they even initiate KFX project when they purchased f-16s from the same country that imposed sanctions on them. I think indonesia should either join pak-fa or j-31 project the work is already in progress and not paper planes anymore. As for KSA i think credit is due where it belongs when china sold them ballistic missiles they did not disclose or invite americans so Chinese and KSA should reach some sort of deal regarding technical data/info protection. Saudis are in no hurry they are waiting on their Typhoons and F-15SA meanwhile the project can go on until it is ready into advance prototype phase.


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## Sasquatch

Luftwaffe said:


> I don't know about indoensia how can they even initiate KFX project when they purchased f-16s from the same country that imposed sanctions on them. I think indonesia should either join pak-fa or j-31 project the work is already in progress and not paper planes anymore. As for KSA i think credit is due where it belongs when china sold them ballistic missiles they did not disclose or invite americans so Chinese and KSA should reach some sort of deal regarding technical data/info protection. Saudis are in no hurry they are waiting on their Typhoons and F-15SA meanwhile the project can go on until it is ready into advance prototype phase.



We are talking about a stealth aircraft the US may face in the future which is as opposed to ballistic missiles that Saudi Arabia has intended for Israel and Iran. This is why I'd be more cautious about this. Saudis are also seeking interest in the F-35 after Israel acquires them the US will sell it to gulf customers.

As for Indonesia it was invited by South Korea along with Turkey to work on the KFX, I believe they signed an agreement if it fails or not 310 project would certainly be an alternative. I pointed out in my prior post it would be better for SAC to partner with Asian nations: Malaysia, Indonesia, and Thailand


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## CrazyPaki

Hu Songshan said:


> We are talking about a stealth aircraft the US may face in the future which is as opposed to ballistic missiles that Saudi Arabia has intended for Israel and Iran. This is why I'd be more cautious about this. Saudis are also seeking interest in the F-35 after Israel acquires them the US will sell it to gulf customers.
> 
> As for Indonesia it was invited by South Korea along with Turkey to work on the KFX, I believe they signed an agreement if it fails or not 310 project would certainly be an alternative. I pointed out in my prior post it would be better for SAC to partner with Asian nations: Malaysia, Indonesia, and Thailand


not sure about other countries but Pakistan is probably thinking along these lines , plus i'm sure we can probably get a really nice package.


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## cirr

A very interesting picture：






Mr. Xu Dazhe，left，Vice Minister for Information Industry and Director of National Defence Science and Industry conveys greetings to 88-year old Lin Zhongtang，formerly Minister of （now defunct）Aerospace Industry

许达哲慰问航空工业老领导林宗棠

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## Kompromat

cirr said:


> A very interesting picture：
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Xu Dazhe，left，Vice Minister for Information Industry and Director of National Defence Science and Industry conveys greetings to 88-year old Lin Zhongtang，formerly Minister of （now defunct）Aerospace Industry
> 
> 许达哲慰问航空工业老领导林宗棠




That is Chinese Navy camouflage right?


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## cirr

Aeronaut said:


> That is Chinese Navy camouflage right?



Yes，Also note the engine model with sawtooth setup in the acrylic box to the left of the J-31 model。


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## Beast

WS-13 will be ready in 2 years time. AVIC spokesmen at Singapore airshow 2014 mention that.


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## Kompromat

cirr said:


> Yes，Also note the engine model with sawtooth setup in the acrylic box to the left of the J-31 model。



yea it seems to have bigger wing area too.


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## Genesis

Beast said:


> WS-13 will be ready in 2 years time. AVIC spokesmen at Singapore airshow 2014 mention that.



if that's the case, I really don't expect J-20 before 2020. It's not a big deal, in the big picture of modernizing the military, what's a couple more years, as long as we get the essentials down. Maybe we can eve make a few more J-10B, J-11Ds in that time to increase our number of 4+ and 4++ fighters.

It makes more sense, Korea and Japan will have 40 and 100 F-35 respectively and those with manufacturing times and this and that won't come at least until 2025 in full numbers, then a number of years to achieve full combat readiness. 

So we are well on schedule even if the time is 2020. A few hundred more advanced 4th gen is always good investment.


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## siegecrossbow

cirr said:


> A very interesting picture：
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Xu Dazhe，left，Vice Minister for Information Industry and Director of National Defence Science and Industry conveys greetings to 88-year old Lin Zhongtang，formerly Minister of （now defunct）Aerospace Industry
> 
> 许达哲慰问航空工业老领导林宗棠



Some believe that the presence of PLA insignia on the wings might be proof that the plane got official backing from the Chinese military.


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## nomi007




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## Genesis

unofficial reports of a test flight today, and that some surprises in store for this year.

Let's wait for the photos....

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## Genesis



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## cirr

Genesis said:


> unofficial reports of a test flight today, and that some surprises in store for this year.
> 
> Let's wait for the photos....



Two，one in the morning and other in the afternoon。

Looking forward to the “good tidings” later in the year。


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## cirr

More test flights carried out today 04.03.2014.

Looking forward to V2.0 with first WS-13B then WS-17。

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## nomi007

cockpit of j-31

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## Sasquatch

cirr said:


> More test flights carried out today 04.03.2014.
> 
> Looking forward to V2.0 with first WS-13B then WS-17。




It's pretty clear the final version will have a single frame canopy.


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## nomi007



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## Akasa

cirr said:


> More test flights carried out today 04.03.2014.
> 
> Looking forward to V2.0 with first WS-13B then WS-17。



How authentic is this; where was this posted?


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## siegecrossbow

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 19763
> 
> 
> View attachment 19765



Apparently AVIC is actually responsible for making these. Trying to cash in on the media attention, I presume?


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> More test flights carried out today 04.03.2014.
> 
> Looking forward to V2.0 with first WS-13B then WS-17。

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## Kompromat

What are the roles of C and A?

@SinoSoldier


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## ChineseTiger1986

Aeronaut said:


> What are the roles of C and A?
> 
> @SinoSoldier



C is carrier based, while A is purely for air superiority.

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## cirr

13.03.2014

SAC plan to build Asia's most advanced digital flexible assembly production line for the rapid development of fighter aircrafts：

描绘蓝图 嫁接梦想
——记中国航空青年科技奖获得者、中航工业沈飞副主任工程师郭洪杰（之二）
本报通讯员　吴加舜

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## aliaselin

It is reported that SAC are trying to get export permission this year for project 310


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## CrazyPaki

aliaselin said:


> It is reported that SAC are trying to get export permission this year for project 310


source?


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## aliaselin

CrazyPaki said:


> source?


中航航空装备公司今年将重点开拓新军机国际市场-中新网
勇担使命 改革创新 全力推进沈阳所持续发展 中航工业沈阳所所长　赵民　党委书记　褚晓文


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## cirr

Breakthrough in cockpit technology（with large screen liquid crystal display）：











Note：the shown pic is for illustration only。

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## Genesis

let's see some breakthrough in fashion technology.

Get rid of those prisoner gloves, and get some good looking suits and helmets. We spend millions training a pilot and then millions more maintaining one, we can't hire someone to design a good looking suit and a good gloves? 

Looking good is in itself a form of intimidation. It means a rich military, and builds morale for the men. J-20 and J-31 looks pretty bad ***, let's not ruin that with bad looking uniforms.

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## Nishan_101

This project could have survived if China welcome Egypt, Libya, Algeria and Tunisia on it. Although even if they have their own share of 5% on it. It would be a good technological know how for china too.


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## That Guy

Nishan_101 said:


> This project could have survived if China welcome Egypt, Libya, Algeria and Tunisia on it. Although even if they have their own share of 5% on it. It would be a good technological know how for china too.


It's still alive and well, and no China wouldn't have needed anyone else help.


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## Luftwaffe

That Guy said:


> It's still alive and well, and no China wouldn't have needed anyone else help.



Most likely J-31 is up against KAI KF-X, japanese ATD-X[mini F-22].

China will needs to use better Engines, bring changes refine changes to the design specially wings/tail...even the KAI KFX sketches looks impressive.

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## Nishan_101

I don't think so that J-31 will be bought by any country soon... More over China might totally go for J-31 and J-20 along with J-10s and J-11 variants.

I am sure that if PAC had money then China might have sold the rights to Pakistan for JF-17. But we didn't managed to gain money for the 50-100 JF-17 Block-Is.


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## itaskol

Two different engine

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## CrazyPaki

itaskol said:


> Two different engine


which two are they?


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## Sasquatch

CrazyPaki said:


> which two are they?



RD-93 and possibly WS-13 or it could be the RD-93 with silver coating.


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## applesauce

Hu Songshan said:


> RD-93 and possibly WS-13 or it could be the RD-93 with silver coating.



given that the ws-13 is suppose to look more or less exactly like the RD-93 (unlike ws-10 vs AF-31), we probably won't know which they are using until they out right tell us(or a reliable leak gets out).


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## 帅的一匹

Seems like the silver coating on J20.


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## rcrmj

ws-13 will be in mass production in 2016, so it is very likely to be a WS-13

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## hk299792458

Project 310 continues it's flight tests in Shenyang. 2 amateur videos filmed on April 11th.











Henri K.


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## Sasquatch

rcrmj said:


> ws-13 will be in mass production in 2016, so it is very likely to be a WS-13



Is there any word on the WS-17 ?


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## Genesis

Luftwaffe said:


> Most likely J-31 is up against KAI KF-X, japanese ATD-X[mini F-22].
> 
> China will needs to use better Engines, bring changes refine changes to the design specially wings/tail...even the KAI KFX sketches looks impressive.



The Japanese one is a demonstrator. The Americans flat out refused to give engine technology, so the ATD-X uses fourth gen, it's weight is greatly reduced, and it's thrust not up to par, hence two engines. The Japanese is compensating for the absence of weight to thrust. This thing can barely carry itself let along ammunition. 

The korean one, I'm not sure the details, but at this point they are even copying the J-20. So their thing is still on the drawing board and I doubt the Americans would give engine to the Koreans. Technologically the Koreans are not really ahead of the Japanese. Though at this point in terms of military, China is more advanced than both. 


Korea and Japan are technologically advanced, but you don't go from nothing to engine, no matter how advanced you think you are, currently only the Americans have it, the Russians sort of the Europeans are not even trying. We are testing our version in 2015.

Also they don't have the cash. Especially the Koreans. They wanted a super carrier to go with their 10,000 ton+ DDGs, but as it turns out they got no money. So they are stuck, pretty good, outdated, ship, with no air support.



The Chinese design of J-20 and J31 is fine, all of these designs must be tested before they go into first flight. If it didn't work, it wouldn't have been approved, they are not idiots.


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## lcloo

Japanese are famous for their expensive home made jets. Their F-2 fighter, a variant of F-16 has cost of US$127 million per peice. If they will to make their own designed stealth jet, probably it will cost double that of F-35! And their economy is not improving.


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## Luftwaffe

lcloo said:


> Japanese are famous for their expensive home made jets. Their F-2 fighter, a variant of F-16 has cost of US$127 million per peice. If they will to make their own designed stealth jet, probably it will cost double that of F-35! And their economy is not improving.



The disadvantage is they can't produce many of them due to high costs if the said aircraft ever materialize not more than 4 squadrons would ever be built just as F-2 [F-16 variant]. There is also a reason they are also opting for F-35s that too would be around 4-5 squadrons with 42 on order already. Below would be the list in coming years still not enough as China can easily in the future deploy dozens of squadrons of J-20/J-31.

F-15J under modernization
F-35
ATD-X
F-2


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## hk299792458

I don't know what J-31 is, in the official PLAAF reference this numbering doesn't and never exist.

What's that?

Henri K.


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## rcrmj

Hu Songshan said:


> Is there any word on the WS-17 ?


no not yet, since things about ws-17 are quite blurry atm....

as far as i know, ws-15 and ws-13 is going to be another mark after ws-10, and the outcome is going to be massive!


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## cirr



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## Luftwaffe

@cirr wonderful CGI hope the program continues...


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## krash

cirr said:


>



Are these official or fan-art? I ask because I see the same changes in the vertical stabilizer as in the J-20.


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## Kompromat

krash said:


> Are these official or fan-art? I ask because I see the same changes in the vertical stabilizer as in the J-20.



The original design is very similar.

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## applesauce

krash said:


> Are these official or fan-art? I ask because I see the same changes in the vertical stabilizer as in the J-20.



fan art

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## cnleio



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## That Guy

cnleio said:


>


That's actually pretty cool, now can we get a vide or gif of it taking off?


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## cnleio

That Guy said:


> That's actually pretty cool, now can we get a vide or gif of it taking off?


I remember, it posted

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## That Guy

cnleio said:


> I remember, it posted


That's awesome, dude!


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## cnleio

J-31 new pics

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## cirr

*New Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Jet--J31 Performs More Flight Tests*

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer

Posted 05.22.2014 at 10:39 am

The J-31 continues flight testing at a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation research facility in northern China. As China's second fifth generation fighter, the J-31 makes China the second nation in the world, after the United States, to have flown two fifth generation fighters. With a length of about 17 meters and an 11.5m wingspan, the J-31 is about the size of the F-35 Lightning II and smaller than the F-22, J-20 and PAK-FA. A large model of the J-31, designated as "F-60", appeared at the Zhuhai 2012 Airshow, indicating a Chinese willingness to export the J-31 as a international competitor to the F-35. Once it enters service, the J-31 is likely to be serve alongside less numerous J-20s as part of a "high/low" combination, similar to the F-35/F-22 mix in the US Air Force. The J-31 is also likely to serve aboard future Chinese aircraft carriers, greatly enhancing their capabilities. Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer for the J-31, as Islamabad hopes to counter the Indian purchase of Russian FGFA stealth fighters. 







*J-31 Prototype Flies Again* The first J-31 prototype, number "31001", performs another flight test. Its 5th generation features include internal weapons bay, stealthy fuselage and an AESA radar. _http://club.mil.news.sina.cn_

The J-31 "Gyrfalcon" stealth fighter reportedly uses technology from the J-19, Shenyang's failed bid for the Chinese heavy 5th generation fighter (which the Chengdu J-20 won). The J-31 has conducted at least six test flights in Shenyang since fall 2012 and a second prototype is under assembly. Compared to censorship of some J-20 photos, there is less secrecy about the J-31's development. 

*To save weight, the J-31 uses an immense number of of 3D laser printed components, including titanium wing spars*. Compared to the F-35, the J-31 uses two smaller Russian RD-33 engines instead of a larger engine like the AL-31 or WS-10. This gives the J-31 a flatter fuselage than the F-35; which suggests a more pronounced air superiority focus for the J-31, since a flatter fuselage results in a smaller weapons bay but improves fuel efficiency and speed by decreasing drag. It is likely that the J-31 could carry larger missiles like the *YJ-12* anti-ship missile under its wings, but like with the F-35, at the cost of stealth. Vladimir Barkovsky, chief of the Russian MiG aircraft design bureau, has praised the J-31 as a "well done indigenous design" and "good machine" resulting from China's ambitious aviation industry. 







*F-60 Display at Zhuhai 2012* A large display model of the J-31, under its export designation "F-60", is exhibited at the Zhuhai 2012 Air Show. Shenyang Aviation Corporation's display of the F-60 suggests Chinese ambition to sell a 5th generation competitor to the F-35 for stealth fighter exports. _mil.sohu.com_

New Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Jet--J31 Performs More Flight Tests | Popular Science

Russian Officials Reveal J-31 Engines and Describe China Sales

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## chanikya

Congrats !!

Can u please provide the ECM Suite Details if any!!

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## cnleio

Maybe for next gen Naval fighter, it is rumor. Future prepare to replace J-15.

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## Fahad Khan 2

may RD-93MA being macde for it... this also PAF may also g0 for it..


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## xunzi

All eyes are on us now to see whether we can finally accomplish a 5th gen fighter before 2020s. I am very confident that we will accomplish that goal that we set out.

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## cnleio

Good News for J-31 project, be PLAN next-gen fighter project.
China F-35C will come ... *J-31A prototype will out *soon.

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## Kompromat

^ Image is not visible.


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## cnleio

Aeronaut said:


> ^ Image is not visible.


Fixed, just a news. The pic is ugly.

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## Kompromat

cnleio said:


> Fixed, just a news. The pic is ugly.



This is fan art right?


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## cirr

*31002* sends her regard to the world。

er。。。soon。

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## cirr

13.06.2014 J-31001 flying over densely populated area：

歼-31—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

The guys obviously have full confidence in the bird。

Now bring out v2.0 ASAP。

Videos took on the same day：

Navy Aviation J-11B：
歼-11B 海航版—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

Air Force J-11B：
歼-11B—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

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## cnleio

Incoming

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## cirr

Falcon Eagle v2.0 CGs - something to look forward to in 2015


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## cirr

Continued

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## Sasquatch

^^
Raptorized, notice the EOTS.


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## Arsalan

cnleio said:


> Incoming



Nice shot,
any idea when this was taken? where? J-21/31?


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## aliaselin



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## Audio

Hu Songshan said:


> ^^
> Raptorized, notice the EOTS.



I told you one year ago, J-31 will be PLAN's fighter. If cnleio is to be believed, seems i was correct.


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## cnleio

Audio said:


> I told you one year ago, J-31 will be PLAN's fighter. If cnleio is to be believed, seems i was correct.


What we said on PDF, all not official voice... so just for reference.

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## haman10

such a nice plane .

end of US hegemony right there .


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## Kompromat

@cnleio | Any reports of the 2nd PT?


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## cnleio

Horus said:


> @cnleio | Any reports of the 2nd PT?


None, J-31 leaked information much less than J-20. Still nobody know when next prototype out.


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## Kompromat

cnleio said:


> None, J-31 leaked information much less than J-20. Still nobody know when next prototype out.



Its been almost two years. It has me concerned about the health of the program. I don't want this program to be abandoned as it is extremely promising for PAF.

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## Akasa

Horus said:


> Its been almost two years. It has me concerned about the health of the program. I don't want this program to be abandoned as it is extremely promising for PAF.


Sorry, just one question: how did you manage 131+ ratings and only one negative?


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## Sasquatch

Horus said:


> Its been almost two years. It has me concerned about the health of the program. I don't want this program to be abandoned as it is extremely promising for PAF.



Private venture by SAC, we probably have to wait longer. The PLAAF might also buy this as well since it's planning to field 300 J-20s, high and low mix so I doubt it will be abandoned.

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## cirr

Sensors bonded to the aircraft wings？

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## raazh

Very promising looking development. I am also confident of the Chinese R&D in avionics and sensors advancements .. the only part left is the engine now .. hope to see China at par with the western manufacturers in this field also ..

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## cirr

What the heck!

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## Kompromat

cirr said:


> What the heck!
> 
> View attachment 89403



Mockup?


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## Arsalan

cirr said:


> What the heck!
> 
> View attachment 89403



what is this?
We can see a plane as well on the deck.!! 
Will be interesting to get some details.


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## applesauce

Horus said:


> Mockup?





Arsalan said:


> what is this?
> We can see a plane as well on the deck.!!
> Will be interesting to get some details.




its the liaoning mockup on land, used to test electronics, sensors, possible interference etc

its right next to and older than the 055 mockup

whats new about it now is that it seems to be under going some more work, possibly suggesting reconfiguration to test for a domestic carrier

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## cirr

Having some preliminary or preparatory tests on the development of a future carrier-borne variant？：

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## 菜鸟耶夫斯基

cnleio said:


> Good News for J-31 project, be PLAN next-gen fighter project.
> China F-35C will come ... *J-31A prototype will out *soon.


嗨，这张画是我画的，有人发到飞扬军事论坛上，然后你发在这里了。我是无意间看到的吓我一跳。你在飞扬或者新浪微博有号吗？
Hey，this picture was made by me. Someone uploaded it in Feiyang Military Forum. Then I saw it right here. Actually it's amazing. Do you have an ID at Sina weibo or Fy？

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## siegecrossbow

Rumor has it that the J-31 is practising aerobatics for Zhuhai 2014.

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## Beast

siegecrossbow said:


> Rumor has it that the J-31 is practising aerobatics for Zhuhai 2014.


Great, since it's meant for export. It shall debut to gain more publicity.


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## cirr

Readying itself for the Zhuhai Show？

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## Kompromat

In November?

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## 帅的一匹

Horus said:


> In November?


yes

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## Sasquatch

cirr said:


> Readying itself for the Zhuhai Show？



2012 show was great, make a sticky thread for it. Looks like the 310 project is gaining speed, second is being built, WS-13 is almost ready and the next engine for it is starting.

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## Bilal.

Hu Songshan said:


> 2012 show was great, make a sticky thread for it. Looks like the 310 project is gaining speed, second is being built, WS-13 is almost ready and the next engine for it is starting.



The need is for the 9500kgf engine shown in Zhuhai 2010 hopefully with twr of 10.


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## Kompromat

Wouldn't it be a relief to see this jet in PAF service in 2020?


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## j20blackdragon

cirr said:


> Readying itself for the Zhuhai Show？



What's even more interesting than the J-31 model is the *background* of the display. Look closely everybody.

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## cirr

j20blackdragon said:


> What's even more interesting than the J-31 model is the *background* of the display. Look closely everybody.



All in the pipeline，all in the pipeline。

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## Kompromat

Wouldn't it be a treat if PAF unveiled its Block-II at the show?


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## Arsalan

Horus said:


> Wouldn't it be a treat if PAF unveiled its Block-II at the show?


It surely would be and by keeping in mind the starting date of the first two Blk-II planes i guess they will be out around November so perfect timing. 

However, unfortunately, the Marketing efforts of PAC and PAF are absolutely poor so i do not have any hope that this brilliant idea will come in mind of any of those dull minded Generals trying to be Marketing Managers. These guys are really letting the project down.

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## 帅的一匹

unless the engine problem solved, JF17 won't find customer in the worldwide market.

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## Beast

Arsalan said:


> unless the engine problem solved, JF17 won't find customer in the worldwide market.



It's never the engine problem. JF-17 will turn out to be solely a Pakistan project without much export. But this project helps PAF modernize at a fraction of sum compare to many other air force like IAF. So fret not even it did not achieve any export success. Pakistanis shall always be proud of this aircraft.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> It's never the engine problem. JF-17 will turn out to be solely a Pakistan project without much export. But this project helps PAF modernize at a fraction of sum compare to many other air force like IAF. So fret not even it did not achieve any export success. Pakistanis shall always be proud of this aircraft.


of course, JF17 is PAF's pride. said the WS13 will be operational before the end of year 2015, do you have any light to shed on this dude?


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## Luftwaffe

Beast said:


> It's never the engine problem. JF-17 will turn out to be solely a Pakistan project without much export. But this project helps PAF modernize at a fraction of sum compare to many other air force like IAF. So fret not even it did not achieve any export success. Pakistanis shall always be proud of this aircraft.



Modernization at "fraction of sum" don't apply to Pakistan...the economy is in shambles and will be for atleast next 10 years. It would be a great feat to achieve manufacturing of 150 JF-17s for PAF...Air Force still would have some 180 vintage aircraft to replace. If you hear PAF modernization consider one thing there is going to be no fix time frame for modernization it all depends on Funds.


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## terranMarine



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## cnleio

J-31 will attend "2014.11 - China ZhuHai Air Show"

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## Max Pain

cnleio said:


> J-31 will attend "2014.11 - China ZhuHai Air Show"
> 
> View attachment 137665
> 
> View attachment 137666



thats an awesome news


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## Basel

Looks nice, but what engines it will use in final production model and what methods will be used to make it low IR / Heat signature jet as compared to F-35 or F-22?


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## Beast

Basel said:


> Looks nice, but what engines it will use in final production model and what methods will be used to make it low IR / Heat signature jet as compared to F-35 or F-22?


Low IR for exhaust is not a very critical in nowadays modern warfare. Seeker of missile are getting more and more sophisticated with digital.
Iraq Mi-35 fitted with IR supression was still locked on by China modern MANPAD FN-6 and got shot down by ISIS.

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## Kompromat



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## 帅的一匹

why J31 doesn't adopt the the same paint job as J20 prototype 2012?


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

J31 will be Chinese politcal tool for this incomming decades, we will have somthing to offer to South America, Middle East and Africa...if it meant for export. US F-35 will certainly have a competitor...this will not only enhance Chinese geopolitcal leverage but a good source of income.

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## cirr



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## siegecrossbow

cnleio said:


> J-31 will attend "2014.11 - China ZhuHai Air Show"
> 
> View attachment 137665
> 
> View attachment 137666



Seems like they stole Gaoshan's J-31 CG for the banner in the background!

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## Beast

siegecrossbow said:


> Seems like they stole Gaoshan's J-31 CG for the banner in the background!


Maybe they already contacted him and ask for his permission?


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## Basel

Beast said:


> Low IR for exhaust is not a very critical in nowadays modern warfare. Seeker of missile are getting more and more sophisticated with digital.
> Iraq Mi-35 fitted with IR supression was still locked on by China modern MANPAD FN-6 and got shot down by ISIS.



Low IR Signature is also very important part of 5th gen planes even advance IR WVR missiles like Python-5 can't engage F-22s (5th gen plane) how a MANPAD can do that? A 5th gen jet is totally different in class from its predecessors. 

Did ISIS is able to shoot down a A-10 or Apache with those it yes then I will believe that those MANPADS are capable to be threat for 21st century level air power. ISIS is unable to bring down any US jet till now who are bombing on them.


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## Beast

Basel said:


> Low IR Signature is also very important part of 5th gen planes even advance IR WVR missiles like Python-5 can't engage F-22s (5th gen plane) how a MANPAD can do that? A 5th gen jet is totally different in class from its predecessors.
> 
> Did ISIS is able to shoot down a A-10 or Apache with those it yes then I will believe that those MANPADS are capable to be threat for 21st century level air power. ISIS is unable to bring down any US jet till now who are bombing on them.



With more and more advance digital IR seeker introduced. I highly doubt the claim by F-22. F-22 purpose is to always avoid WVR while engaging enemy at BVR. The low IR requirement is more for countering low grade IR WVR missiles. 
Iraq Mi-35 are fitted with IR suppression and yet it did not save it from more advance digital FN-6 seeker. This is a truth fact.


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## Superboy

Only 1 prototype? Looks like it's a demonstrator or a low priority project.


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## Beast

Superboy said:


> Only 1 prototype? Looks like it's a demonstrator or a low priority project.


They are rumour of second prototype. If J-31 is selected by PLAN, I bet it will be a modify one from this.


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## Beast

China Military Online English Edition


J-31 stealth fighter to appear at Zhuhai air show

*(Source: China Military Online) 2014-10-23*

　　BEIJING, October 23 (ChinaMil) -- Over 130 aircraft of various types will participate in the 10th China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition to be unveiled on November 11, 2014 in Zhuhai of south China’s Guangdong province, and the J-31 stealth fighter will also appear in Zhuhai and conduct a demonstration flight, according to Nanfang Daily.

　　The J-31 stealth fighter is very likely to be put into mass production within five years, and has a big chance of being a carrier-borne type, said Xu Yongling, aviation expert, in an interview.

　　It has been just two years since the successful maiden flight of the J-31 in 2012. As a fighter under test, the J-31 is now in the primary stage of performance development.

　　“It is still difficult for it to give a demonstration flight, but as an export-oriented aircraft, it may showcase itself by appearing and making a sensational effect at the air show,” said Xu Yongling.

　　In the opinion of Xu Yongling, the J-31 is a low-end version of the fourth-generation warplanes. With China's talent and technology advantages gained from its development of the third-generation warplanes, it is possible to realize design finalization and mass production of the J-31 within five years.

　　The engine has been a disadvantage in the aviation technology field of China. “But this disadvantage is being made up for, and there will be good news soon,” said Xu Yongling. New products will appear in fields of high-thrust engines, medium-thrust engines and small-thrust engines in China. Such primary models as the J-31 will definitely be equipped with domestically-made engines, so that it is possible for China to cease its heavy reliance on the import of engines for its major models.

　　Xu Yongling also pointed out that for the carrier-borne aircraft in various countries, it is the general trend for stealth fighters to be commissioned on aircraft carriers, but the possibility of using the fourth-generation warplanes to completely substitute the third-generation ones is small. The aircraft carrier fleets mainly equipped with the fourth-generation warplanes and the aircraft carrier fleets mainly equipped with the third-generation warplanes will appear simultaneously in future.

　　"The J-31 is very likely to be commissioned on the aircraft carrier, but no news concerning the compatibility between the J-31 and carrier-borne aircraft technology is available now. Therefore, it is estimated that the J-31 will be commissioned on the aircraft carrier later than it is commissioned into the troops," according to Xu Yongling.


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## cirr

31001 arriving in Zhuhai：

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## Beast

I think the fact, China are confident to showcase real flying J-31 for export means all the neccessary components are ready. That included WS-13 engine. True to AVIC vice president words in Singapore Airshow 2014 that WS-13 engine will be ready in 1-2 years time.

In fact, recently we discovered some changes to the engine exhaust of J-31 that may suggest fitted with different type of engines. Maybe WS-13 engine has already onboard for tested on J-31. Without domestic engine, it will be impossible for J-31 to be order by foreign customers and I do not think AVIC lack such forsight in trying to sell their product.

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## Kompromat

Would be nice if PAF entered in an expression of interest agreement with AVIC regarding this jet.

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## Beast

Horus said:


> Would be nice if PAF entered in an expression of interest agreement with AVIC regarding this jet.



Hope a deal with Pakistan will strike soon during the Zuhai 2014. PAF will be the few countries to owe a 5th gen fighter jet.

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## Stealth

I heard from Airforce sources that J31 behind the eyes of Pakistan Airforrce think tanks... let see...


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## Beast

Stealth said:


> I heard from Airforce sources that J31 behind the eyes of Pakistan Airforrce think tanks... let see...


Hope J-31 will come cheap. I think funding will always be a problem for PAF. With F-35 going to cost 140million USD per piece. Even a price tag of 70million USD for J-31 will make it looks like a bargain.

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## cirr

More pics



























Now let's wait for the unveiling of a new member in the SAC family。

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## jkroo

J31 has already arrived at Zhuhai. Sorry, cirr has posted.

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## nomi007

flight video of j-31
looks really impressive but engines are smoky
http://static.youku.com/v1.0.0423/v...5uZXQCL3Bvc3RfODM3Mzk1OF8xLmh0bWw=&bc=&type=0

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## Beast

nomi007 said:


> flight video of j-31
> looks really impressive but engines are smoky
> http://static.youku.com/v1.0.0423/v/swf/loader.swf?VideoIDS=XODEzNzkyNzI4&embedid=MzkuMzIuMTQ0LjIxNgIyMDM0NDgxODICYmJzLnRpZXh1ZS5uZXQCL3Bvc3RfODM3Mzk1OF8xLmh0bWw=&wd=&vext=pid=&emb=MzkuMzIuMTQ0LjIxNgIyMDM0NDgxODICYmJzLnRpZXh1ZS5uZXQCL3Bvc3RfODM3Mzk1OF8xLmh0bWw=&bc=&type=0



For the first 28 seconds, I didn't even see a single trail of smoke. I think the smoke is release on purpose. Anyway, good video


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## nomi007

Beast said:


> For the first 28 seconds, I didn't even see a single trail of smoke. I think the smoke is release on purpose. Anyway, good video


but after 43sec and 56sec a little bit smoky

*EODAS *and *retractable side missile launch rail* are missing in j-31


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon




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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> For the first 28 seconds, I didn't even see a single trail of smoke. I think the smoke is release on purpose. Anyway, good video


RD93 smokes, it will be improved in WS13.


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## mike2000

Is this another stealth Fighter? Is it from China or?


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## cnleio

mike2000 said:


> Is this another stealth Fighter? Is it from China or?


Bro, u didn't know China developing 2x stealth fighters ? J-20 & J-31, compard with U.S F-22 & F-35... China is the only 2nd nation who is developing two stealth fighters at the same time.


Like F-35, China will export J-31 to Foreign Airforce with cheaper price.  N.o31001 prototype will attend "2014.11-China ZhuHai Air Show", the black-bird in ZhuHai now.

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## mike2000

cnleio said:


> Bro, u didn't know China developing 2x stealth fighters ? J-20 & J-31, compard with U.S F-22 & F-35... China is the only 2nd nation who is developing two stealth fighters at the same time.



Nope didnt know. Heard you people were developing a stealth fighter(Jay 20 if im not wrong) , but never knew you were developing 2 stealth fighters at the same time. WTH? Is that really feasible/necessary? Though only a country like the U.S could afford such a project(and the U.S is already overspending on its military as it is). The F-35 alone already costs so much for the U.S, so developing 2 stealth ones seems to me to be a little bit too much. interesting....never knew china was developing 2 stealth fighters at same time, anyway time will tell how it plays out. Kudos though for this, its not an easy thing to do.


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## cnleio

mike2000 said:


> Nope didnt know. Heard you people were developing a stealth fighter(Jay 20 if im not wrong) , but never knew you were developing 2 stealth fighters at the same time. WTH? Is that really feasible/necessary? Though only a country like the U.S could afford such a project(and the U.S is already overspending on its military as it is). The F-35 alone already costs so much for the U.S, so developing 2 stealth ones seems to me to be a little bit too much. interesting....never knew china was developing 2 stealth fighters at same time, anyway time will tell how it plays out. Kudos though for this, its not an easy thing to do.


As far as rumor said, PLAAF chose CAC's J-20 as next stealth fighter but SAC's J-31 project for export or PLAN's next carrier-based fighter like F-35C. Anyway ppl believe the J-31 will be 1st export version stealth fighter from China, it will compete with F-35 in internationl weapon market, as far as i knew many developing nations have interests in J-31 stealth fighter.


J-31 == "China F-35", This time AVIC show J-31 in "2014.11-China ZhuHai Air Show" to attract more foreign customers !

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## Kompromat



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## Beast

mike2000 said:


> Nope didnt know. Heard you people were developing a stealth fighter(Jay 20 if im not wrong) , but never knew you were developing 2 stealth fighters at the same time. WTH? Is that really feasible/necessary? Though only a country like the U.S could afford such a project(and the U.S is already overspending on its military as it is). The F-35 alone already costs so much for the U.S, so developing 2 stealth ones seems to me to be a little bit too much. interesting....never knew china was developing 2 stealth fighters at same time, anyway time will tell how it plays out. Kudos though for this, its not an easy thing to do.


 J-20 is heavy weight fighter while j-31 is medium weight fighter. I don't see how they clash with each other interest when co developing at the same time.

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## j20blackdragon

Four *ramjet* (PL-12D?) missiles are shown in the weapons bay.

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## Kompromat

The biggest chellange for J-31 is to have a 100kn class reliable Chinese power plant.

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## Beast

Horus said:


> The biggest chellange for J-31 is to have a 100kn class reliable Chinese power plant.


It shall not be any problem. The domestic engine will debut in 1-2 years time.

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## GeHAC

Horus said:


> The biggest chellange for J-31 is to have a 100kn class reliable Chinese power plant.


Currently It's difficult to reach 100kn，I would be happy enough if it can reach 90kn.We have to admit that F414 is awesome


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## 帅的一匹

said it will reach 95 KN.

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## j20blackdragon

How can engines be a problem when every single 'Flanker' in this picture is already using domestic engines? Does it make sense that China can power the much *larger* 'Flanker' with domestic engines but not the smaller J-31?







The reason why the current J-31 is using RD-93 is because it is a tech demonstrator designed years ago before Chinese engines were ready. It's not a production aircraft. The production J-31 will have domestic engines.

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## Kompromat

I was talking about afterburning thrust.


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## 帅的一匹

j20blackdragon said:


> How can engines be a problem when every single 'Flanker' in this picture is already using domestic engines? Does it make sense that China can power the much *larger* 'Flanker' with domestic engines but not the smaller J-31?
> 
> View attachment 142460
> 
> 
> The reason why the current J-31 is using RD-93 is because it is a tech demonstrator designed years ago before Chinese engines were ready. It's not a production aircraft. The production J-31 will have domestic engines.


WS13 is lagging behind, you have to admit it my bro. although WS13 will fit in soon, we still have to spend long time to test it on the jets.

I highly suspect that WS13 engine is not a dedicated design for J31 at the first place.

j31 shall adopt the same stealthy paint like J20 has now, it will looks much cooler.

J31 won't be ready for export before year 2020, we only have one until now. I don't know why we shouldn't have more to accelerate the test?

the central government shall invest more in the program.


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## 帅的一匹

it will be a killer if J31 could carry four PL21 ramjet BVRAAM in its belly.


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## j20blackdragon

J-31 with PL-12D or PL-21 ramjet missiles.

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## nomi007

*China Has F-35 Fever 
by James Dunnigan
November 4, 2014*

Denmark is the latest customer for the new American F-35 fighter to report that local companies and military organizations involved in F-35 work were hit by numerous and frequent hacker attacks since 2008. The hackers were mainly interested in F-35 material and got a lot of it. China was named as the main suspect.

The Chinese already have a growing collection of F-35 material from other sources. In 2012 British aircraft manufacturer BAE confirmed that Chinese hackers gained access to classified BAE aircraft design files in 2009. This included data on the American F-35 fighter, which BAE is helping to develop and build. BAE was working on the F-35 fuselage, portions of the wings and tail, the fuel system, crew escape system, life support and integration of British components for the British F-35s. All or much of the date on these items was apparently taken by the Chinese hackers.

In 2009 there were claims that unknown hackers had breached Department of Defense Internet security and stolen terabytes (millions of megabytes) of classified data on the F-35. This caused considerable alarm. The Department of Defense and the manufacturer (Lockheed Martin) denied that this penetration and theft took place. But it was later revealed that there had been hacker attacks and eventually China was found to be the culprit.

China has since developed two “stealth” fighter designs, both of which have elements very similar to the F-35.


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## Beast

nomi007 said:


> *China Has F-35 Fever *
> *by James Dunnigan*
> *November 4, 2014*
> 
> Denmark is the latest customer for the new American F-35 fighter to report that local companies and military organizations involved in F-35 work were hit by numerous and frequent hacker attacks since 2008. The hackers were mainly interested in F-35 material and got a lot of it. China was named as the main suspect.
> 
> The Chinese already have a growing collection of F-35 material from other sources. In 2012 British aircraft manufacturer BAE confirmed that Chinese hackers gained access to classified BAE aircraft design files in 2009. This included data on the American F-35 fighter, which BAE is helping to develop and build. BAE was working on the F-35 fuselage, portions of the wings and tail, the fuel system, crew escape system, life support and integration of British components for the British F-35s. All or much of the date on these items was apparently taken by the Chinese hackers.
> 
> In 2009 there were claims that unknown hackers had breached Department of Defense Internet security and stolen terabytes (millions of megabytes) of classified data on the F-35. This caused considerable alarm. The Department of Defense and the manufacturer (Lockheed Martin) denied that this penetration and theft took place. But it was later revealed that there had been hacker attacks and eventually China was found to be the culprit.
> 
> China has since developed two “stealth” fighter designs, both of which have elements very similar to the F-35.


James dunnigan is from strategy page, right?


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## nomi007

Beast said:


> James dunnigan is from strategy page, right?


yp


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## Beast

nomi007 said:


> yp


This guy is famous for conjuring up fantasy rather than based on facts to write his article.

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## cirr



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## Dazzler

flying on two different variants of rd-93, possibly MA is with the dark nozzle. interesting


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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> flying on two different variants of rd-93, possibly MA is with the dark nozzle. interesting


May be its only the nozzles that are changed. Some different material to better suite a fifth generation design needs. 
What will be interesting will be when it flies with a Chinese engine!


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## cirr

Here comes a mock-up for 31001 v2.0 aka J-21 prototype：

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## j20blackdragon

cirr said:


> Here comes a mock-up for 31001 v2.0 aka J-21 prototype：
> 
> View attachment 147847



I'm looking at the serrated nozzles.

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## cirr

j20blackdragon said:


> I'm looking at the serrated nozzles.
> 
> View attachment 147851



I have taken a note of that, I have taken a note of that.

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## Beast

And the EODAS below the nose, just in front of the landing gear.

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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> And the EODAS below the nose, just in front of the landing gear.


yes something is there


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## Kompromat

What a beauty!

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## 帅的一匹

The engine on the model looks damn sexy and cool!

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## 帅的一匹

anyone knows what kind of engine it is ?


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## revu

cirr said:


> I have taken a note of that, I have taken a note of that.



you guys really love that kind of thing, so do i.


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## aliaselin

It has got formal designation FC-31

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## cirr

SAC 31001 is now officially named：FC-31。

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## cirr

Perhaps the moderator would kindly change the title of the thread to：FC-31 News & Discussions。

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## Beast

That will be the export name like FC-1 aka JF-17.

Wonder will it adopt by PLANAF? Chengdu has come up a carrier design version to challenge J-31. Chances are quite high this plane will not be adopt by China if Chengdu one are real superior.

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## kuge

http://p.you.video.sina.com.cn/swf/...82xM/s.swf&tHostName=www.sinodefenceforum.com

fyi...


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## Beast

Before 11th November practice.

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## Water Car Engineer

Export it to India.


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## Kompromat



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## 帅的一匹

cirr said:


> SAC 31001 is now officially named：FC-31。


Does FC means for export?


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## Ultima Thule

wanglaokan said:


> Does FC means for export?


Fighter China-31


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Does FC means for export?


Yes. If you got money and not foe of China.


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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> Yes. If you got money and not foe of China.


yes its export and also for PLAN navy


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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> yes its export and also for PLAN navy


maybe PLAAF as we'll, who knows.


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## Beast

pakistanipower said:


> yes its export and also for PLAN navy


PLAN not confirm yet. Still got chengdu competition with SAC


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> PLAN not confirm yet. Still got chengdu competition with SAC


why not chengdu develop a medium class stealthy fighter as we'll?


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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> PLAN not confirm yet. Still got chengdu competition with SAC


as for medium aircraft carrier such as ex varag you have it is impossible to put J-20 on the deck which is heavyweight fighter and with limited multirol capability, if chengdu will have scale down version of J-20 or put something new for navy


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## acid rain

BEIJING — Amid the whine of high-performance jet engines at the start of an air show in Zhuhai, the Chinese government is hoping to generate a different sort of buzz: admiration, and perhaps purchases, of its shadowy J-31 stealth fighter, which is expected to make its first public appearance.

For almost 20 years, the event, Airshow China, has been a showcase for the country’s homegrown hardware, and a marketplace for those interested in selling to the world’s most populous country. As the country tries to climb into the high-end arms market, it has been eager to display fighters, missiles and drones that it hopes will demonstrate how China can compete on the global stage.

By exhibiting a stealth aircraft at the show, China wants to show just how far its arms industry has come, experts say. The United States is the only country with operational stealth planes, and Lockheed Martin the only company to have successfully exported one, the F-35.

The air show, which starts Tuesday, is widely expected to be “a coming-out party for the J-31,” said John Stillion, senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, an independent research institute in Washington.





A Y-20 military transport in Zhuhai.
REUTERS
“The more ambitious the display, probably the closer it is to being ready for prime time. If they fly it, that’s a big deal,” he said. “One of the ways countries try to increase demand for their combat aircraft is displaying them, doing cool stuff at air shows; it’s an opportunity to show off.”

After scrutinizing online videos and squinting at oblique references in Chinese state news media, foreign experts say there are many open questions regarding the J-31’s development: how soon the plane will be in service, whether it will use engines that are domestically made or imported from Russia, whether its capabilities will be a match for Lockheed Martin’s jets, and whether it will be substantially cheaper than the competition.

It is also unclear whether the introduction of the J-31 at the show will significantly bolster China’s clout in the global arms trade. It is not even certain that the jet, developed by the state-owned Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, is meant for export. Another stealth fighter, the J-20, is being developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group.

“People think the J-20 won the contest,” said Richard A. Bitzinger, senior fellow and coordinator of the Military Transformations Program at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore.

Some shortcomings may be evident in the plane’s appearance, he said. Unlike the F-35, the J-31 has two engines.

“Traditionally the Chinese have to stick in extra engines because their engines aren’t powerful enough — that’s a warning signal right there,” he said. Lockheed Martin’s F-22, the world’s only operational stealth fighter, also has two engines, but they are powerful enough to propel the plane faster than the speed of sound without using the fuel-intensive afterburner.

Robert M. Farley, an assistant professor at the University of Kentucky’s Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce, said engine designs had hindered Chinese aerospace ambitions. The Xian Aircraft Industry Y-20, a domestically produced military transport that will also be shown at Zhuhai, has been developed with engines made by the Russian company Aviadvigatel that are far less efficient than their Western counterparts, typically made by General Electric, Pratt & Whitney or Rolls-Royce.

“The problem with Chinese engines is that they’ve been remarkably unreliable,” Mr. Farley said. “Engines require extremely tight tolerances in construction; even small errors can lead to the engine burning out.”

Quality control, in general, could undermine the J-31’s biggest apparent selling point: its ability to evade radar.

“The potential problem with Chinese- and Russian-construction stealth fighters is that if there’s a bolt out of place, it shows up on a radar signature,” Mr. Farley said. “Russian and Chinese construction is typically much looser.”

“Will Chinese fighters be as ‘stealthy’ as Western fighters? We won’t know that for another five or 10 years,” he said.

If China’s fighters perform as advertised, Mr. Farley said, the J-31 will attract buyers — but only if it is marketed well below the F-35’s price tag, which ranges from about $150 million to more than $300 million depending on the model. Development costs for the J-31 are completely hidden from public view, but the journal Science noted that about 45 percent of the Chinese government’s research and development spending is “not accounted for” and probably allocated to defense.

“My guess is that somewhere around $75 million, or at least less than $100 million, is the ballpark cost to make it attractive,” Mr. Farley said. “Pakistan, of course, would be a huge buyer. Several Latin American countries are recapitalizing their air forces. In the Middle East, there’s a lot of dissatisfaction with the U.S. and U.S. equipment. A cheaper Chinese stealth fighter could do well.”

Political pressures and incentives could also affect who buys from China, said Robert C. Michelson*, *principal research engineer emeritus at the Georgia Tech Research Institute.

“Countries with poor Western relations, such as Iran, might be forced to consider the J-31 in the absence of other competing options,” he said. “Of course the Chinese jets will be in competition with the Russian jets, and will have to prove more cost-effective.”

Russia is the world’s second-largest exporter of arms, controlling 27 percent of the global market; its Sukhoi aeronautics company is also developing a so-called fifth-generation jet, the T-50, jointly with India. The United States controls 29 percent of the market, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, or Sipri.

By last year, China had overtaken France as the world’s fourth-largest exporter of arms, according to Sipri data; Germany is No. 3. Although China has long sold small arms and ammunition, increasing manufacturing sophistication means that it is now also trying to export air-defense missile systems, antitank weaponry, helicopters and warships.

In just five years, the percentage of the global arms trade sourced from China has jumped to 6 percent from 2 percent, even as total international arms sales have risen 14 percent. From 2009 to 2013, China’s top arms customers were Pakistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar. Meanwhile, China’s arms imports have shrunk as domestic factories fill more orders, according to Sipri.

The country’s aviation industry is also trying to break into commercial manufacturing; China’s first domestically produced jet airliner, the C919, is in the final stages of development, as is the ARJ21, a regional jet.

The C919 is “meant to compete with Airbus and Boeing,” said Ray Jaworowski, senior aerospace analyst at Forecast International.

“In both instances, the planes will be powered by Western engines — they will be incorporating Western systems, and this will help them compete in Western markets,” Mr. Jaworowski said, adding that finding buyers outside China would be difficult no matter what.

One advantage for China as it tries to become a bigger manufacturer of aviation hardware is a large internal market.

“A lot of these companies in China have been doing pretty well because the Chinese defense budget has gone up so significantly,” said Mr. Bitzinger of the S. Rajaratnam School. In 1997, China’s total defense budget was about $7 billion; by 2014, it was officially $150 billion, and perhaps much higher, he said.

Although the public is expected to get its first official glimpse of the J-31 at Zhuhai — the plane, called the Falcon Hawk in the show’s program, is scheduled to fly on Tuesday, Wednesday and Saturday — there will almost certainly not be a peek under the hood.

“I suspect that this is intended to be the public debut of the J-31 so that the world will be impressed that it is real,” said Mr. Michelson of Georgia Tech. “Rightfully, China is proud of this development and wants to show it off.”

*“*Performance claims will no doubt be made for the J-31 at Zhuhai, but until those are vetted, they will just be claims,” he added.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/1...a-tries-to-gain-attention.html?_r=0&referrer=


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## Kompromat

“My guess is that somewhere around $75 million, or at least less than $100 million, is the ballpark cost to make it attractive,” Mr. Farley said.* “Pakistan, of course, would be a huge buyer.* Several Latin American countries are recapitalizing their air forces. In the Middle East, there’s a lot of dissatisfaction with the U.S. and U.S. equipment. A cheaper Chinese stealth fighter could do well.”

Source: With a Stealth Fighter, China Tries to Gain Attention

Interesting.....

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## Icewolf

J-31 coming... Watch out New Delhi


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## Johny D

Icewolf said:


> J-31 coming... Watch out New Delhi


in worst case scenario, India can buy limited number of F35 from the US..But, I dont think J-31 would be fully operational by end of this decade.


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## Beast

Typical western news heading. Trying to portray China desperate to gain attention and in a negative way.

Don't tell me the US never send their stealth fighter for airshow flying or display? Don't tell me the US never intend to sell their stealth fighter?

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## terranMarine

Beast said:


> Typical western news heading. Trying to portray China desperate to gain attention and in a negative way.


China tries to get attention? LOL the whole world is obsessed with China

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## Cheetah786

China’s military upstaged the Asian economic summit in Beijing this week by conducting flights tests of a new stealth jet prototype, as the White House called on Beijing to halt its cyber attacks.

Demonstration flights by the new J-31 fighter jet—China’s second new radar-evading warplane—were a key feature at a major arms show in Zhuhai, located near Macau, on Monday.

The technology has shown up in China’s first stealth jet, the J-20, and in the J-31. Both of the jets’ design features and equipment are similar to those of the F-35.

The Chinese warplanes are part of a major buildup of air power by China that includes the two new stealth fighters, development of a new strategic bomber, purchase of Russian Su-35 jets, and development of advanced air defense missile systems. China also is building up its conventional and nuclear missile forces.

The J-31 flight testing during the summit highlights the Chinese military’s use of high-level U.S. visits to showcase new weaponry.

Military and defense analysts said China’s development of new warplanes poses a threat to regional stability.

“China is moving along at a very rapid pace in its fighter aircraft development and we should be concerned,” said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Tom McInerney, who said the timing during the president’s visit was similar to the 2011 flight test of the J-20 during a visit by then Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates.

McInerney said Gates halted production of the most advanced U.S. jet fighter, the F-22, at 187 aircraft that “started us on the unilateral disarmament path that President Obama has America on.”

“Neither the J-20 or the J-31 will match the F-22 or F-35 in stealth performance but their successors will and we should be concerned as China is a looming economic and military power,” McInerney said. “They enjoy flaunting their power in front of American leaders who have exhibited weakness.”

In January 2011, China rolled out the J-20 for the first time during the visit to Beijing by Gates, who wrote in his recent memoir, _Duty_, that one of his aides called China’s timing for the J-20 disclosure “about as big a ‘**** you’ as you can get.”

Rick Fisher, a specialist on the Chinese military with the International Assessment and Strategy Center, said the J-31 prototype flight at Zhuhai shows a high degree of confidence on the part of the manufacturer, the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation.

“But Shenyang has also displayed a large model of an advanced development of the J-31, that it calls the FC-31,” he said. “The FC-31 shows key design refinements intended to increase platform stealth, or to increase radar reflectivity. These include new horizontal stabilizers, reshaped wings, and a revised rear fuselage area.”

The new advanced version of the jet also will include an electro-optical targeting device under its nose that is very similar to the F-35 targeting unit.

Fisher said the Chinese appear to intend the J-31 for foreign exports and to compete with foreign sales of the F-35 by offering it at a much lower price.

“The FC-31 gains points for a cleaner low observable configuration than the F-35. What we do not know at this point is how their electronic systems compare. While we might give the edge to the F-35 we also have to consider that China is rapidly developing similarly capable radar, targeting systems, and cockpit systems.

The J-31 also is expected to be launched on future Chinese aircraft carriers that will be equipped with catapult launch.

Fisher said the main challenge for the new jet is its engines, which are Russian-made turbofans. “China is now testing an indigenous turbofan for this fighter, but it is not known when it will be ready,” he said.

“But these are small obstacles, especially if Russia will continue to sell Shenyang the engines it requires,” Fisher said. “The FC-31 could become a military and a commercial threat to the F-35. Its well past time to be investing in a much better F-35 as well as a successor to the F-22.”

Li Yuhai, a general manager with the Aviation Industry of China, parent company of Shenyang Aviation, told the state-run Global Times that the J-31 is comparable to the F-35 and will change the status quo by taking a lead role in the aircraft export market.

“Our fourth generation fighter can now compete with foreign fighters,” Li said.

The J-31 was first flight tested in 2012 and has completed at least six aerial tests.

In addition to the J-31, China also showcased a new Y-20 transport aircraft that is a key element of China’s new effort to develop long-range warfighting capabilities. Another aircraft that debuted at Zhuhai was the KJ-2000, a new airborne early warning and control aircraft with technology critical for advanced warfighting.


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## rockstarIN

*MOSCOW/BEIJING (BNS): *The new fifth-generation J-31 stealth fighter of China will be powered by Russia-made RD-93 turbofan engines, an official of Rosoboronexport, Russia's state arms exporter, has said.

"J-31 with the Russian engine RD-93 is considered to be an export programme, able to compete with the American F-35 fifth generation aircraft on the regional markets," Sergey Kornev, Rosoboronexport's Air Force Equipment Export Department Head, was quoted as saying by _RIA Novosti_ news agency.

China, which kicked off the 10th Zhuhai Air Show on Tuesday (Nov 11), is set to showcase the twin-engine J-31 stealth jet at the international event.

Developed by the state-owned Shenyang-led Aviation Industry Corp of China (AVIC) for the PLA Air Force, the fifth-generation radar evading warplane will perform demonstration flight at the biennial air show, pegged as Asia's largest. 

Sergey Kornev, who is heading the Russian delegation at the Air Show, said that two fifth generation fighters are being developed in China, the J-20 and J-31, which demonstrate "the high potential of Chinese science and aviation industry."

With an eye on export, China unveiled the J-31 for the first time at the 2012 Zhuhai Air Show where a large-scale model of the new fighter was exhibited. 

Dubbed as China's second stealth jet after the Chengdu J-20, the J-31 made its maiden flight on October 31, 2012 and at present, only one prototype of the new jet is available. 

The Chinese jet bears some resemblance with the Russian T-50 or PAK FA fifth-generation fighter and also with the American F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), both currently under development. The only operational fifth-generation fighter at present is the US-made F-22 Raptor.

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## rockstar08

i think this the best opportunity for PLAAF and PAF too ...

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## Barmaley

rockstarIN said:


> RD-93 turbofan engines



Not only RD-93 and not only for J-31.

Currently, Russia supply China with the AL-31F and AL-31FN turbofan engines.

China also ordered additional batch of AL-31FN engines (75 engines).


Not to mention that the Chinese transport aircraft Y-20 equipment with the D-30 engine (China ordered 239 engines in between 2009-2011, mostly for H-6K, though.)


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## Keel

Barmaley said:


> Not only RD-93 and not only for J-31.
> 
> Currently, Russia supply China with the AL-31F and AL-31FN turbofan engines.
> 
> China also ordered additional batch of AL-31FN engines (75 engines).
> 
> 
> Not to mention that the Chinese transport aircraft Y-20 equipment with the D-30 engine (China ordered 239 engines in between 2009-2011, mostly for H-6K, though.)



It is good to help the Russians in view of their fast dropping Rubles due to the sanctions 
That is a lot and there is no other choices until our self-developed engines either get matured or can meet with the speed of production 
The orders also have to take care of some slightly older models which are originally equipped with the config of Russian engines


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## AUSTERLITZ

RD-93 engine is joke for a 5th gen platform,no supercruise and low TW ratio(for a 5th gen).Looks like no TVC either.Bad choice if this plane is to compete with other 5th gen designs.


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## cnleio

This is a JOKE article from MOSCOW, the FC-31 prototype with RD-93 on ZhuHai Show doesn't mean the mass production version will use it ... RD-93 for a 5th-gen stealth fighter it's funny enough ... China won't let such joke happen on FC-31 v2.0.

Next years China will decrease jet engines import, domestic Jet Engine Industry will UP !

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## Ammyy

cnleio said:


> This is a joke article from MOSCOW, the FC-31 prototype with RD-93 on ZhuHai Show doesn't mean the mass production version will use it ... RD-93 for a 5th-gen stealth fighter it's funny enough ... China won't let such joke happen on FC-31 v2.0.



So fighter aircraft that was made for export dint not show real engine but Russian just for show peace?


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## Ultima Thule

AUSTERLITZ said:


> RD-93 engine is joke for a 5th gen platform,no supercruise and low TW ratio(for a 5th gen).Looks like no TVC either.Bad choice if this plane is to compete with other 5th gen designs.


its in a prototype stage, and as for supercruise does F35 have?, as for TVC its optinal when it is an advanced developmental stage we may see WS-13 with TVC, and it has a compliment to more advanced J-20 which have a supercruise capabilites


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## cnleio

Ammyy said:


> So fighter aircraft that was made for export dint not show real engine but Russian just for show peace?


Prototype flying on ZhuHai Show doesn't mean the final version of FC-31 ... it's like the difference between YF-22 and F-22.

It's a joke that FC-31 with RD-93 for export, China WS-13 under develop it's our engine for mass production version of FC-31. Chinese r building a stealth fighter like F35 not a Mig29.


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## damiendehorn

Would love to see a single engine version of the fc31, something like a fc1/j17 size. Imagine a small stealthy j17 that has the nose, wings and canted tail of the fc31 powered by the new ws13.

It would cost a great deal less then even the fc31 and a fraction of the price of a f35, it would be ideal for countries like Bangladesh that dont need long range fighters but smaller point defence fighters but still incorporate much of the advanced features of modern 5th gen fighters.

If it could be done for a flyaway price point of around $35m....


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## Beast

cnleio said:


> This is a JOKE article from MOSCOW, the FC-31 prototype with RD-93 on ZhuHai Show doesn't mean the mass production version will use it ... RD-93 for a 5th-gen stealth fighter it's funny enough ... China won't let such joke happen on FC-31 v2.0.
> 
> Next years China will decrease jet engines import, domestic Jet Engine Industry will UP !


 Cant believe after China and Russia become major allies. These clueless russia reporter still trying to take a jab at China. Xi shall ask putin to take some action against these old times reporter. They shall save their jab at Ukraine or western.

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## Beast

damiendehorn said:


> Would love to see a single engine version of the fc31, something like a fc1/j17 size. Imagine a small stealthy j17 that has the nose, wings and canted tail of the fc31 powered by the new ws13.
> 
> It would cost a great deal less then even the fc31 and a fraction of the price of a f35, it would be ideal for countries like Bangladesh that dont need long range fighters but smaller point defence fighters but still incorporate much of the advanced features of modern 5th gen fighters.
> 
> If it could be done for a flyaway price point of around $35m....


Impossible. It will be seriously under power without internal carriage. WS-13 engine is a medium size , not heavy weight engine that can sustain medium fighter.


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## siegecrossbow

damiendehorn said:


> Would love to see a single engine version of the fc31, something like a fc1/j17 size. Imagine a small stealthy j17 that has the nose, wings and canted tail of the fc31 powered by the new ws13.
> 
> It would cost a great deal less then even the fc31 and a fraction of the price of a f35, it would be ideal for countries like Bangladesh that dont need long range fighters but smaller point defence fighters but still incorporate much of the advanced features of modern 5th gen fighters.
> 
> If it could be done for a flyaway price point of around $35m....



Where are you going to put the weapons bay?


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## damiendehorn

siegecrossbow said:


> Where are you going to put the weapons bay?



I have a plan! Got to draw it an scan it to show.


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## nika



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## nika



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## nika



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## siegecrossbow

nika said:


> View attachment 150844



Same load in the main bay as the J-20, it seems.


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## Kompromat

siegecrossbow said:


> Same load in the main bay as the J-20, it seems.



What would be the load like in lets say A2A config? - There seems to be no side bays.


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## 帅的一匹

Horus said:


> What would be the load like in lets say A2A config? - There seems to be no side bays.


4 PL21D ramjet BVRAAM

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## siegecrossbow

Horus said:


> What would be the load like in lets say A2A config? - There seems to be no side bays.



I assume that short-range missiles for self defence will be mounted on wing-pylons (at expense to RCS). J-31 is a multi-role fighter. I don't think that WVR knife fights are a priority.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

nika said:


> View attachment 150852
> View attachment 150853
> View attachment 150854
> View attachment 150855
> View attachment 150856


 
where I can get one of this little toy?


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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> where I can get one of this little toy?


Check out Taobao, I saw a very detail J-15 1/48 model. Maybe you can get a lot of goodies there.

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## yusheng



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## cirr

This is how J-21/FC-31 will be built in the future：











3D-printed。

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## Kompromat

siegecrossbow said:


> I assume that short-range missiles for self defence will be mounted on wing-pylons (at expense to RCS). J-31 is a multi-role fighter. I don't think that WVR knife fights are a priority.



Maybe enclosed pods shall do the trick?


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## siegecrossbow

Horus said:


> Maybe enclosed pods shall do the trick?



Sure, you can do that, but my understanding is that the main advantage of having stealth fighters is to avoid getting into short-ranged knife fights in the first place.


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## siegecrossbow

cirr said:


> This is how J-21/FC-31 will be built in the future：
> 
> View attachment 153180
> 
> 
> View attachment 153181
> 
> 
> 3D-printed。



Not really in the future. We know for a fact that the current J-31 uses 3D printed parts.


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## sancho

> *China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display*
> 
> The big curiosity at this year’s Airshow China was the prototype Shenyang FC-31 fighter that was making its first public appearance. Previously billed as the J-31, the stealthy-looking aircraft first flew two years ago. It is a smaller complement to the Chengdu J-20, which was the first of the PRC’s new stealth aircraft...
> 
> ...If they were involved in the FC-31 design, MiG officials might not want to take any credit, because the display at *Zhuhai revealed some poor aerodynamic efficiency. The aircraft bleeds too much energy and the pilot had hard time keeping the nose up during turns and other maneuvers. He also had to engage afterburners far too often to maintain a proper energy utilization curve.
> 
> Western aerospace analysts point out that the FC-31 flown at Zhuhai was a “clean” jet. An aircraft configured for a real mission and fitted with weapons would be even heavier and would have an even more dismal flight performance, they said.* A large-scale model of the FC-31 on display inside the halls at Zhuhai showed some detail changes of configuration, compared to the flying prototype...



China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display | Aviation International News


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## Jaam92

I think this will be Pak Army in next 4 to 5 Years.
Well done China

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## cirr

SAC now need to get down to the work of bringing out the 1st FC-31 prototype as early as possible in 2015.


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## 帅的一匹

BoQ77 said:


> It's Vietnamese radars, because we may build or buy by our own money from Russia, Ukraine, Czech, France, Israel ... All available.


we are now build 5 islands in SCS, we will cut your oils business anytime ourAir force deployed there. take your time.

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## BoQ77

31001 is both J-31 and FC-31 ? or They built 2 prototypes ?


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## Donatello

Are any rough RCS figures available for J-31?


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display | Aviation International News



This is prototype. YF/22 had similar problems. No one is taking J-31 current versions to be production versions.


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## Toss The Lemon



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## SpArK

Toss The Lemon said:


> View attachment 153684
> 
> View attachment 153685
> 
> View attachment 153686




FC-31 looks sexy.. Nice pics.


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## kuge

Toss The Lemon said:


> View attachment 153684


hi, what different kind of left to the right engines uses?


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## gambit

Donatello said:


> Are any rough RCS figures available for J-31?


We should make our Chinese members happy -- zero RCS. No emissions/radiation at all.


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## Basel

@gambit what is your opinion about J-31 prototype and the new model pitched as V2.0? which one look better 5th gen design?


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## Ultima Thule

gambit said:


> We should make our Chinese members happy -- zero RCS. No emissions/radiation at all.


and your F-22,F-35 and B-2 is invisible to all radar around the world if you dont talk seriously just get lost


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## Ultima Thule

what a sexy bird Chinese must develop their WS-13 and WS-15 to LOAN type engine like F-22/F35 have


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## Deino

Even if I'm almost as enthusiastic about the FC-31/J-31 like so many here - I'm almost in love with this bird ! - I would like to ask a maybe "bad" question:

To admit the WS-13 is for me almost as mystical as the Yeti, the monster of Loch Ness or Bigfoot. As such I'm highly skeptical about this engine ... We've heard since years from this powerplant, we've heard about problems, a test flight in a JF-17, problems and delays again but so - at least as I remember - not even a single image ! ... Is this engine still alive or has it died already a silent death similar to the WP-14 Kunlun ??

Deino

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## Bilal.

Deino said:


> Even if I'm almost as enthusiastic about the FC-31/J-31 like so many here - I'm almost in love with this bird ! - I would like to ask a maybe "bad" question:
> 
> To admit the WS-13 is for me almost as mystical as the Yeti, the monster of Loch Ness or Bigfoot. As such I'm highly skeptical about this engine ... We've heard since years from this powerplant, we've heard about problems, a test flight in a JF-17, problems and delays again but so - at least as I remember - not even a single image ! ... Is this engine still alive or has it died already a silent death similar to the WP-14 Kunlun ??
> 
> Deino



With the revelation of the new 9500 Kgf engine shown in Zhuhai 2010 the prospects ws-13 do seem grim but on the other hand there are reports of it being actively tested on a JF-17 in Chengdu.


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## Deino

Bilal. said:


> With the revelation of the new 9500 Kgf engine shown in Zhuhai 2010 the prospects ws-13 do seem grim but on the other hand there are reports of it being actively tested on a JF-17 in Chengdu.



Upppss ... did I miss something ?! ... at least this year !?

But You mention Zhuhai 2010, since then I've heard literally nothing more about this engine and this year the only 'newer' powerplant was the Minshan for the JL-10/L-15.

Deino

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## gambit

Basel said:


> @gambit what is your opinion about J-31 prototype and the new model pitched as V2.0? which one look better 5th gen design?


What is there to say -- so soon after its debut ? That it looks pretty ? Am not being a dick about this. 

The F-117 era is over with the B-2 and the F-22. With the F-117, the priority was low radar observability at the expense of everything else. Not only did we proved that low radar observability was feasible on the technical front, with the F-117 in combat, we proved that being radar ambiguous was a real tactical advantage and threat. The highly limited F-117 proved spectacularly effective in its primary role as a tactical bomber. Those who ridiculed that limited capability missed the point: That the F-117 was an operational experiment to see if one weapon capability could work in conjunction with being low radar observability and how well was that integration.

So even though the F-117 could only drop bombs, we basically STFU-ed the critics.

With the B-2 and F-22, the par for any alleged '5th gen' fighter is about being low radar observability and multiple attack modes capable -- *ON EQUAL TERMS*. You want to deliver bombs ? Fine, but the bombs cannot compromise 'stealth' beyond a certain threshold. You want to be 'stealthy' ? Fine, but you cannot be so limited in design as to be able to only drop bombs or only shoot missiles. Even the F-22 -- primarily a fighter -- is able to drop bombs.

Supercruise ? Fuggedaboutit. Nice to have, but not necessary.

That is why the speculations for the J-31 will not be about about its 'stealthiness' but about how well will it be able to exploit whatever level of radar 'stealthiness' it have in order to drop bombs or shoot missiles. It will be about its avionics overall and sensor sophistication in particular. In my opinion, passive sensor capabilities will be the norm while active sensor will be highly focused when called upon to provide accurate details necessary for an attack. We have been on that conceptual path for the last 25+ yrs.

Like it or not, the J-31 will be held against the par set by the American fighters regarding speculations.

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## Toss The Lemon

kuge said:


> hi, what different kind of left to the right engines uses?


Do you mean why the left and right engine are different?
Well, the rumor says that SAC is testing new developed engines, the other say that's just for testing different material on exhaust frame due to the extreme high temperature.


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## siegecrossbow

Toss The Lemon said:


> Do you mean why the left and right engine are different?
> Well, the rumor says that SAC is testing new developed engines, the other say that's just for testing different material on exhaust frame due to the extreme high temperature.



My theory is that since the RD-93 is so smoky, the one that's been in use longer has been blackened by soot. The replacement engine hasn't been exposed to smoke long enough for blackening.


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## cirr

Bilal. said:


> With the revelation of the new 9500 Kgf engine shown in Zhuhai 2010 the prospects ws-13 do seem grim but on the other hand there are reports of it being actively tested on a JF-17 in Chengdu.



They are gunning for 9800Kfg，9800Kfg。


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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Even if I'm almost as enthusiastic about the FC-31/J-31 like so many here - I'm almost in love with this bird ! - I would like to ask a maybe "bad" question:
> 
> To admit the WS-13 is for me almost as mystical as the Yeti, the monster of Loch Ness or Bigfoot. As such I'm highly skeptical about this engine ... We've heard since years from this powerplant, we've heard about problems, a test flight in a JF-17, problems and delays again but so - at least as I remember - not even a single image ! ... Is this engine still alive or has it died already a silent death similar to the WP-14 Kunlun ??
> 
> Deino



Deino,

I believe that the critical part of the composition of the failed part was sabotaged to fail at a critical stage of development to create a massive setback to the program and finances.


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## Stealth

sancho said:


> China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display | Aviation International News


Try hard buddy... search more on google spend 2 - 3 days and dig some more anti china hardware news on every kuta bila website and share  hahahhahah inshort China'z f***** Indians

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## cnleio

FC-31 will be SuperStar, Made In China !!!

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## cirr

For FC-31 v2.0 lovers，early summer 2015 is the time to watch out for。

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## Toss The Lemon



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## Basel

I have a question why J-31 is using RD-93 instead of AL-31FN engine? as those are also available and would increase performance of the prototype jets.


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## Deino

With AL-31FN it would be a direct competitor to the J-20 and simply become a heavy fighter ... as such it would "fight" for the same resources, its prospects to be exported would diminish (the marked for a heavy fighter is simply too small) ... and it could not even form a complement for the J-20 as a high-low mix for the PLAAF/PLANAF.

Deino

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## Basel

Deino said:


> With AL-31FN it would be a direct competitor to the J-20 and simply become a heavy fighter ... as such it would "fight" for the same resources, its prospects to be exported would diminish (the marked for a heavy fighter is simply too small) ... and it could not even form a complement for the J-20 as a high-low mix for the PLAAF/PLANAF.



I don't think so because it could be used only for prototypes and later when productions started Chinese engine could replace it, using AL-31FN will allow to test full potential of that jet concept, as current engines are under powered to test its capabilities to full potential as every thing depend on power supplied by engines.


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## Deino

IMO not, just compare the engine's diameters: the RD-33/-93 is a medium weigh turbofan with a smaller diameter than the current AL-31FN as used by the J-20.
Since we know from the J-15 prototypes, that AL-31F and WS-10A are interchangeable it can be assumed that with the WS-15 having similar dimensions like the AL-31F it will also share similar dimensions to the WS-10. That does not count for the RD-93.

Deino


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## SQ8

Deino said:


> IMO not, just compare the engine's diameters: the RD-33/-93 is a medium weigh turbofan with a smaller diameter than the current AL-31FN as used by the J-20.
> Since we know from the J-15 prototypes, that AL-31F and WS-10A are interchangeable it can be assumed that with the WS-15 having similar dimensions like the AL-31F it will also share similar dimensions to the WS-10. That does not count for the RD-93.
> 
> Deino



It also depends on the space available inside the aircraft for the engine. You can fit a smaller cylinder into a space for a larger one, but not the other way around.


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## Deino

Yes, but only to a certain limit. Otherwise You need a redesign and that's what would be necessary if You try to put the WS-10 or AL-31F with their larger diameter into the current RD-33/-93; it simply won't fit.


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## cnleio

Just relax ! China won't export any stealth fighter with Russia engines, only WS-13 for FC-31.

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## Deino

cnleio said:


> Just relax ! China won't export any stealth fighter with Russia engines, only WS-13 for FC-31.




But again like I already said here (SAC FC-31 Stealth Aircraft Development| News & Discussions. | Page 98) ... is the WS-13 still alive ???

So far I know nearly nothing but rumours, I know not a single image .. ???


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## Ultima Thule

Deino said:


> But again like I already said here (SAC FC-31 Stealth Aircraft Development| News & Discussions. | Page 98) ... is the WS-13 still alive ???
> 
> So far I know nearly nothing but rumours, I know not a single image .. ???


 i asked the same question?


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## Beast

Deino said:


> But again like I already said here (SAC FC-31 Stealth Aircraft Development| News & Discussions. | Page 98) ... is the WS-13 still alive ???
> 
> So far I know nearly nothing but rumours, I know not a single image .. ???


You need to trust AVIC vice president words. He mention the domestic power plant will be ready in 1-2years time during Singapore airshow interview recently.

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## cnleio

Deino said:


> But again like I already said here (SAC FC-31 Stealth Aircraft Development| News & Discussions. | Page 98) ... is the WS-13 still alive ???
> 
> So far I know nearly nothing but rumours, I know not a single image .. ???


Right now i can't answer ur question, coz i also didn't see the pic yet. Only official news about FC-31 chief engineer told Chinese media, *FC-31 export will install domesitc jet engines* and *FC-31 price is about 75million USD*. That's all i knew here, if Chinese including FC-31 chief engineer didn't brag on 2014 ZhuHai Air Show =).



> 【总师称FC-31将配中国发动机 传巴基斯坦需求强烈】FC-31鹘鹰的总设计师孙聪透露，未来的FC-31不仅只是具有“中国制造”的外形，还将装上一颗“中国心”。有分析指出，未来鹘鹰的价格约为7500万美元。面对未来印度装备俄罗斯T-50的压力，巴基斯坦对“鹘鹰”具备最强烈的现实需求。总师称歼31将配中国发动机 传巴基斯坦需求强烈|中东|歼31|空军_新浪军事



I trust AVIC & FC-31 chief engineer ... when i saw the pic before on internet, at least _China had spent years to R&D some thrust-vectored engines_. In China no news is the good news, not like the Indian news of India official *DRDO to abandon Kaveri project* out, that's truely a sad news (although Indian r optimistic to such tragedy) ... LOL !

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## Kompromat

Deino said:


> With AL-31FN it would be a direct competitor to the J-20 and simply become a heavy fighter ... as such it would "fight" for the same resources, its prospects to be exported would diminish (the marked for a heavy fighter is simply too small) ... and it could not even form a complement for the J-20 as a high-low mix for the PLAAF/PLANAF.
> 
> Deino



AL-31FN wouldn't be a bit too big for this jet?


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## cirr

Engine is not as big an issue as some would make it to be。

China is fast-gaining in the engine department and catching up with the advanced nations。

Things take a little time to mature。So relax boys and gals。Wait a few more years and all shall be fine。

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## yusheng

there is little imfromation about Chinese middel thrust jet, you can see in the difference btween the pictures:

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## yusheng

近来有八股爆料沈飞在制造新一代多用途飞机主要是面向国外市场.据猜测这很可能说的是今年准备首飞的中型四代机.定位有点像中国的F35.未来会装备两个图中的先进中推发动机.首飞很可能先用WS13A顶着. 

4 generation jet mainly for exporting will be a bit like Chinese F35 in the future will be equipped " advanced middle thrust engine". First flight is likely to use WS13A instead.


先进中推原先就是国家主导的发展项目，现在也需要项目拉动，否则就废了。先进中推的后继发展还关系到轻型战斗机（枭龙魔改）和为四代服务的高级教练机，将来发展的洲际公务机，隐身长航时无人机，可以说前途无量！

Development of middle thrust jet is China national interest , keenly needed which related to subsequent development of lightweight fighter (Xiaolong magic change= jf17 pro++) and senior coach for the four generation service machine, intercontinental corporate aircraft, stealth long endurance UAV, it can be said that the future is very bright!

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## cnleio

yusheng said:


> there is little imfromation about Chinese middel thrust jet, you can see in the difference btween the pictures:
> View attachment 154428
> View attachment 154429
> View attachment 154430
> View attachment 154431


The 1st pic is awesome, is that China advanced middile thrust jet prototype ?  It's very GOOD, no doubt i believe before 2020 our FC-31 will install domestic advanced middle thrust jets. Just this pic have answered many questions here, yes now FC-31's engine under developing and by the pic it seems everything is FINE !!

Next years the good news will come, Indian to abandon Kaveri jet engine but Chinese keep going ahead of India.

This is a beautiful advanced middle thrust jet engine... LOL!!! (Hope not leak our secret,bro.)

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## yusheng

cnleio said:


> The 1st pic is awesome, is that China advanced middile thrust jet prototype ?  It's very GOOD, no doubt i believe before 2020 our FC-31 will install domestic advanced middle thrust jets. Just this pic have answered many questions here, yes now FC-31's engine under developing and by the pic it seems everything is FINE !!
> 
> Next years the good news will come, Indian to abandon Kaveri jet engine but Chinese keep going ahead of India.
> 
> This is a beautiful advanced middle thrust jet engine... LOL!!! (Hope not leak our secret,bro.)
> View attachment 154458




sorry , this is US f404.

there is not much information about Chinese middle thrust engine.
in many ways, engine technology level in China is a military secret.

however, many types of jets are under RD is certain, and will appear gradually in the near future. i added f404 and ej200 to say that the chinese new middle thrust turbofan will at the level as these two at least.

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## rcrmj

the mid-thrust engines have already started initial production to replace RD-93

and WS-15 is in progress (not much info i can get from my sources)

the lessons form JF-17 is very vivid, China will make sure any future planes we export will have our own engine```

here is a bit juce :
an interview done during Zhuhai Air Show
a staff from Institution 606 (606 is in charge of developing WS-10 and other upgraded versions), confirmed, the latest WS-10 has max 14Kn thrust, and the older version has service life time of 1500hrs
and been asked how many years behind U.S in terms of 4th gen engine, he said less than 10 years```(I am skeptical about this claim as F-119 matured around 1997, and I dont have any specs about WS-15 and its stage of progress)

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## cnleio

yusheng said:


> sorry , this is US f404.
> 
> there is not much information about Chinese middle thrust engine.
> in many ways, engine technology level in China is a military secret.
> 
> however, many types of jets are under RD is certain, and will appear gradually in the near future. i added f404 and ej200 to say that the chinese new middle thrust turbofan will at the level as these two at least.


Ooooops, next time add description on pics. Ths !

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## cirr

Automated fibre placement：







an advanced method of manufacturing *composite* materials for J-20s and J-21s。

中国复合材料加工技术再获突破 助研新一代战机-中新网

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## cirr



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## j20blackdragon

Which aircraft would you say has more room in the nose area to accommodate a bigger radar and more avionics?

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## Beast

j20blackdragon said:


> Which aircraft would you say has more room in the nose area to accommodate a bigger radar and more avionics?
> 
> View attachment 156169
> 
> View attachment 156170


I am wondering why landing gear cover needs RCS too? You usually take off from friendly airfield and its only when you enter enemy aerial area then you need RCS which is when you have long retracted the landing gear and the door close.

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## damiendehorn

Beast said:


> I am wondering why landing gear cover needs RCS too? You usually take off from friendly airfield and its only when you enter enemy aerial area then you need RCS which is when you have long retracted the landing gear and the door close.



If you look closely you'll see all the surface joints are at at an angle. Even though the landing gear doors remain shut and flush to the fusealarge, no seal is 100% so all stealth aircraft use serated edges where possible to redirect the refelected beam away from the source.

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## cirr

China employs 3D-printing technologies to speed up the development of new airborne optoelectronic pods：

中航成功3D打印完成机载光电探测设备原理样件_凤凰军事

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## Khalid Newazi

*After recently showing off its second stealth fighter plane there are increasing gossips about it's new stealth fighter the J-31. It took 4 years more for the J-31 to be introduced to the public than the J-20 but it seems like that the former will be introduced before the later.

Now before we go on and assume who will buy them we need to keep in mind that the J-31 is still far from entering service. It has yet to be tested (at least publicly) with Chinese engines (WS-13A) and a realistic date for it would be 2020.

That gives 6 years and within that time military will improve will become more powerful especially that of developing countries. 

So, here are the possible users:

1. PLAN: China has been intensively increasing its naval capabilities and modernizing the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). There are plans to add more aircraft carriers ton the current one and PLAN is aiming for 4 by 2020 (will definitely get 2). The J-20 is twice the weight of the J-31 and might not be possible to launch it from an aircraft carrier but the lightweight of the J-31 gives it an edge. Most likely scenario would be the J-31 will be manufactured for PLAN whereas J-20 for the air force (PLAAF) 

2. Pakistan: There are numerous reports that Pakistan will purchase the J-31 and possibly acquire stealth fighters before India. Given the good relations between Pakistan and China the deal makes a lot of sense. The number of jets Pakistan will acquire depends on the Government's purchasing ability and price of the jets.

3. Iran: The Iranians are desperate for new fighters to its ageing air force inventory. With increasing oil demands (demand for oil will hit 99.7 million barrels per day, up from its 2012 level of 89.2 million bpd) and countries like Saudi Arabia and Norway at it's oil peak and others running out of oil and Venezuela unwilling to deplete its reserves rapidly like Saudi Arabia the world will have to look at country with the World's 5th largest oil reserves to increase their productions. International sanctions will mean less then than it is now.

4. Brazil: China and Brazil don't have any conflict of interest, the Brazilian defence budget being a massive $30+ billion and it's willingness to acquire modern fighter jets and although it wanted the F-35 Lockheed Martin rejected it and presented a F-16 flying falcon (F-16BR) which isn't a stealth version. Due to stealth aspirations Brazil might switch its focus to the J-31.

5. Saudi Arabia: Israel's accusation of the F-35 by 2016 and yet to receive any words from the US about sale of F-35 to the Kingdom and even if a sale is made it is expected to be delayed by 5 years than that of Israel's. Also the fact that the Middle Eastern countries are made to sign deals that prevent them from using US weapons against Israel doesn't go well for KSA's interests. Saudi Arabia had previously purchased advanced missiles from China (DF-3A in 1987 which is a nuclear ballistic missile and DF-21 in 2007). The positives from deals with China is that there are no strings attached.

6. North Korea: South Korea recently signed a deal with USA for 40 F-35s and this might force the North to get its own stealth arsenal. Also China might arm North Korea just in case of a proxy war for the South China Sea.

7. Other Middle Eastern countries: UAE, Bahrain, Qatar are well aware of the fact that their troops on the ground lack proper training to fight off possible Iranian offence (or counter-offence) or militias thus would depend heavily on its Air Force to take out enemy tanks, missile, missile sites and would need stealth fighters to avoid radars (in this case only Iran, militias don't generally use radars). Again US are yet give any assurance of selling F-35s. 

NOTE: Malaysia, Indonesia and some other countries were excluded because they have conflict of interest with China in the South China Sea. Also Venezuela, Bangladesh, Argentina and some other countries are excluded because they would first look to modernize their Air Forces before going for 5th generation stealth technologies.
*


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## zaid butt

acid rain said:


> Only Pakistan and north Korea and possibly Bangladesh - others can afford real ones.


it is also real one


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## he-man

zaid butt said:


> it is also real one



Not yet,its a prototype undergoing testing.


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## GR!FF!N

Iran->going for home made design.else,Russian One.

Brazil->they'll buy any weapons from the west.don't know who entered the Brazil's name here.there is more possibility that Argentina with their $h!tty economy will buy it than Brazil.

Saudi Arabia,UAE,Baharin,Qatar->good relation with USA will prevent them from buying.

only real possibility for now is Pakistan.even North Korea is uncertain having troubling relationship with China.


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## sicsheep

acid rain said:


> Only Pakistan and north Korea and possibly Bangladesh - others can afford real ones.


With ur small defense budget we highly doubt you can afford many


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## he-man

Khalid Newazi said:


> Sorry to let you down but the Chinese are going to use their own engines soon. Also mighty India will probably not see the Su-50 (PAK FA) before 2025.



We will have rafales to plug the gap...............


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## Khalid Newazi

he-man said:


> We will have rafales to plug the gap...............



And when exactly will that be?


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## he-man

Khalid Newazi said:


> And when exactly will that be?



??


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## Beast

acid rain said:


> What's delusional about it? No one else will go for Chinese scrap metal on Russian engines other than these countries.
> 
> The real ones will go for real jets.


I can sense your jealousy.

China gains ground as arms supplier, but US stays on top, SIPRI says | News | DW.DE | 17.03.2014

Middle East countries has shown strong interest of Chinesen weapon. Saudi has become a frequent customers of Chinese arms. DF-21 ballistic missile, PLZ-44 SPH and wing loong UCAV.

Before that China has not able to offer a competitive modern fighter jet. Now with J-31, it will be first time a competitive fighter jet offer in market by China.

J-31 will not be a low price fighter jet. Lower price than F-35 but do not expect you can get one for less than USD30million.

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## Khalid Newazi

Beast said:


> I can sense your jealousy.
> 
> China gains ground as arms supplier, but US stays on top, SIPRI says | News | DW.DE | 17.03.2014
> 
> Middle East countries has shown strong interest of Chinesen weapon. Saudi has become a frequent customers of Chinese arms. DF-21 ballistic missile, PLZ-44 SPH and wing loong UCAV.
> 
> Before that China has not able to offer a competitive modern fighter jet. Now with J-31, it will be first time a competitive fighter jet offer in market by China.
> 
> J-31 will not be a low price fighter jet. Lower price than F-35 but do not expect you can get one for less than USD30million.


 
Exactly, just because a bunch of low quality cheap goods are Made in China people assume that China can't make good quality products. Also China don't use clauses in the contract which restricts the use of weapons on Israel or they don't need Israel's permission about what to sell to the Middle Eastern countries.

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## Beast

Khalid Newazi said:


> Exactly, just because a bunch of low quality cheap goods are Made in China people assume that China can't make good quality products. Also China don't use clauses in the contract which restricts the use of weapons on Israel or they don't need Israel's permission about what to sell to the Middle Eastern countries.


They do know Chinese produce quality product but they just can't take it when China continue rising.

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## siegecrossbow

Khalid Newazi said:


> Exactly, just because a bunch of low quality cheap goods are Made in China people assume that China can't make good quality products. Also China don't use clauses in the contract which restricts the use of weapons on Israel or they don't need Israel's permission about what to sell to the Middle Eastern countries.



China makes cheap products for people who could only afford cheap products.

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## zaid butt

he-man said:


> Not yet,its a prototype undergoing testing.


so its not failed project its reality


----------



## siegecrossbow

cirr said:


> China employs 3D-printing technologies to speed up the development of new airborne optoelectronic pods：
> 
> 中航成功3D打印完成机载光电探测设备原理样件_凤凰军事



J-31's support trusses are already generated by 3D laser printing. At this rate we may have a 100% 3D printed plane when it goes into production.

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## he-man

zaid butt said:


> so its not failed project its reality



Nothing is known as of yet apart from the fact that it still uses the rd-93 engine


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## cnleio

j20blackdragon said:


> Which aircraft would you say has more room in the nose area to accommodate a bigger radar and more avionics?
> 
> View attachment 156169
> 
> View attachment 156170


Good comparison pic, i believe FC-31 v2.0 will be more beautiful !

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## Beast

GR!FF!N said:


> DF-21???you mad bro??



Looks like you are not following this news..

defence.pk/threads/china-secretly-sold-saudi-arabia-df-21-missiles-with-cia-approval.334852/

China sell more weapons than you can think. And many deals are low profile unlike the West who loves to brag their weapon deal.

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## Superboy

J-31 replaces J-10 so I'm assuming PLAAF buys.


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## ayibarishi

J-31 is not good plane and J-31 marketing is not good choice for a china also. Very big empty bazaar in front of us. This market makes Mirages legend. This market makes F-5 and Mig-21 is most popular planes. And only China and Pakistan has a product to fill that market share already. It is: JF-17. 

Let rich countrys have a advanced weaponary from USA or Russia (?) China has a K-8, L-15, JF-17 triple. And this is enough to sell nearly half of the world. Weapons, training, etc. can be able to sell with it too.


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## he-man

war is peace said:


> Can india even produce bullet?



No,we are in contact with govt of barbados for importing bullets.


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## he-man

Superboy said:


> J-31 replaces J-10 so I'm assuming PLAAF buys.



They will buy j-20,,,j-31 is for export.


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## Superboy

he-man said:


> They will but j-20,,,j-31 is for export.




J-20 replaces J-11. It is a big plane. J-31 replaces J-10. It is a medium sized plane like F-16.


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## he-man

Superboy said:


> J-20 replaces J-11. It is a big plane. J-31 replaces J-10. It is a medium sized plane like F-16.



Does not work like this.


----------



## Superboy

he-man said:


> Does not work like this.




J-31 has two small engines. J-10 / F-16 has one big engine.


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## he-man

Superboy said:


> J-31 has two small engines. J-10 / F-16 has one big engine.



J-31 is 5 th gen and after china gets j-20,its not required.


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## Superboy

he-man said:


> J-31 is 5 th gen and after china gets j-20,its not required.




J-8 and J-7 are combo. J-11 and J-10 are combo. J-20 and J-31 are combo. One large one small.


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## he-man

Superboy said:


> J-8 and J-7 are combo. J-11 and J-10 are combo. J-20 and J-31 are combo. One large one small.



No need of j-31 when u have j-20


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## Superboy

he-man said:


> No need of j-31 when u have j-20




J-20 is air superiority. J-31 is multi role with a focus on attack.


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## he-man

Superboy said:


> J-20 is air superiority. J-31 is multi role with a focus on attack.



Who told u that?


----------



## Superboy

he-man said:


> Who told u that?




J-8 / J-11 / J-20 are air superiority. J-7 / J-10 / J-31 are multi role with focus on attack. Big is better for air superiority. Small is better for attack.


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## he-man

Superboy said:


> J-8 / J-11 / J-20 are air superiority. J-7 / J-10 / J-31 are multi role with focus on attack. Big is better for air superiority. Small is better for attack.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

j20blackdragon said:


> Speaking of _tin boxes_, here are some pictures of an unpainted Indian Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). The pictures speak for themselves. No need to say anything.
> 
> View attachment 156942
> 
> View attachment 156943
> 
> View attachment 156945



It's fine, what's wrong with it?


----------



## Ultima Thule

he-man said:


> Who told u that?


just like F-22 and F-35 combo you poor indian


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## war is peace

Will china sell india j-31? India may demand. t50 hang up, f35 belly up. So a posibilty


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## applesauce

j20blackdragon said:


> Which aircraft would you say has more room in the nose area to accommodate a bigger radar and more avionics?
> 
> View attachment 156169
> 
> View attachment 156170



the two pics are of different sizes, just look at the wheel and the pilots.


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## cnleio

China FC-31

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## Anders

*J31 renamed FC - 31.*
*












*

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## Anders



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## Anders



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## D-WARRIOR

i think its a complete aircraft already.. anything which is in need to be improved is that smoky engine


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## Anders

*Improved version*

*1: 2 Model*
*



*
*The original version*
*



*

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## PurpleButcher

either pics have very good resolution or this is transforming into a true black beauty


----------



## Anders

*Future improved version.*

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## Anders



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## Anders

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan plans to buy the fourth generation stealth fighter aircraft from China to boost its defence capability, according to a media report.

The matter was being discussed with Chinese authorities, minister for defence production Rana Tanveer Hussain was quoted as saying by the Dawn newspaper.



“It is for the first time that a senior government functionary has confirmed talks with China over purchase of the longer-range stealth aircraft — an issue that has been a subject of speculation in defence circles since the 10th edition of the Zhuhai Air Show (China) held earlier this month, when the aircraft was unveiled,” the paper reported.



The Jane’s Defence Weekly also quoted an unnamed Pakistani official as saying that the Pakistan Air Force was in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 fighters.

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## Kompromat

Cant wait for the V2 prototype.

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## Anders

Improved version

1:48 Model

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We are confirmed to get this bird


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## cirr

There will be a heavier version of the FC-31 for PLAAF use.


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> There will be a heavier version of the FC-31 for PLAAF use.



When is the flight?


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## terranMarine

A heavier version? i wonder what the differences will be between the one for PLAAF and the export model.


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## j20blackdragon

terranMarine said:


> A heavier version? i wonder what the differences will be between the one for PLAAF and the export model.



My hope is the engine. The PLAAF doesn't operate any planes with RD-93/WS-13. Why would it suddenly start now? A slightly enlarged FC-31 powered by WS-10 would make perfect sense to me. The WS-10 is a mature engine already in service with the J-11B/BS. It always baffled me why China would ignore the WS-10 and go for RD-93/WS-13 in the first place. RD-93 is a foreign engine and we have no news regarding the status of WS-13. But perhaps the answer is very simple. The FC-31 with RD-93/WS-13 is an export plane sharing the same engines as FC-1/JF-17. A completely different plane will be in service with the PLAAF to form the 'low' end of the high-low mix. The high end will be J-20 powered by WS-15. This is all just a theory of mine.


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## Kompromat

j20blackdragon said:


> My hope is the engine. The PLAAF doesn't operate any planes with RD-93/WS-13. Why would it suddenly start now? A slightly enlarged FC-31 powered by WS-10 would make perfect sense to me. The WS-10 is a mature engine already in service with the J-11B/BS. It always baffled me why China would ignore the WS-10 and go for RD-93/WS-13 in the first place. RD-93 is a foreign engine and we have no news regarding the status of WS-13. But perhaps the answer is very simple. The FC-31 with RD-93/WS-13 is an export plane sharing the same engines as FC-1/JF-17. A completely different plane will be in service with the PLAAF to form the 'low' end of the high-low mix. The high end will be J-20 powered by WS-15. This is all just a theory of mine.



I don't think that would be feasible. It may require a total redesign of the airframe.

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## cnleio

If we can copy F-22, i say PLS~! (now China only lack thrust vectoring engines for FC-31)

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## he-man

j20blackdragon said:


> My hope is the engine. The PLAAF doesn't operate any planes with RD-93/WS-13. Why would it suddenly start now? A slightly enlarged FC-31 powered by WS-10 would make perfect sense to me. The WS-10 is a mature engine already in service with the J-11B/BS. It always baffled me why China would ignore the WS-10 and go for RD-93/WS-13 in the first place. RD-93 is a foreign engine and we have no news regarding the status of WS-13. But perhaps the answer is very simple. The FC-31 with RD-93/WS-13 is an export plane sharing the same engines as FC-1/JF-17. A completely different plane will be in service with the PLAAF to form the 'low' end of the high-low mix. The high end will be J-20 powered by WS-15. This is all just a theory of mine.



Which engine of china is capable of 4000 hours life yet??
There may be reliability concerns and thats why j-20 still flies with al-31 and j-31 is using rd-93.

If rd-93/33 remains as a final engine the performance of the aircraft will be mediocre in aerodynamics at best as these engines are producing just 84-88 kn each.


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## cirr

he-man said:


> Which engine of china is capable of 4000 hours life yet??
> There may be reliability concerns and thats why j-20 still flies with al-31 and j-31 is using rd-93.
> 
> If rd-93/33 remains as a final engine the performance of the aircraft will be mediocre in aerodynamics at best as these engines are producing just 84-88 kn each.



Russian engines are passe。

All shall be revealed in good time。Bear with us and have patience。

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## he-man

cirr said:


> Russian engines are passe。
> 
> All shall be revealed in good time。Bear with us and have patience。



I am not a fool to get to ur propaganda.
Rome is not built in one day,,,progress of ws engines will take time and it will take years before it can come to the level of rd series,,,forget about idz 117s and 117 and the future idz 30


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## Beast

he-man said:


> I am not a fool to get to ur propaganda.
> Rome is not built in one day,,,progress of ws engines will take time and it will take years before it can come to the level of rd series,,,forget about idz 117s and 117 and the future idz 30


The truth is WS taihang engines are not new neither. 6 years has passed since it certify. Now is nearing mature period and up thrust.

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## he-man

Beast said:


> The truth is WS taihang engines are not new neither. 6 years has passed since it certify. Now is nearing mature period and up thrust.



Ya.thats why fc-31 and j-20 still flying in russian engines??
WS will need years before it can even match up to the old warhorse al-31,,,let alone modern powerplants.


----------



## Beast

he-man said:


> Ya.thats why fc-31 and j-20 still flying in russian engines??
> WS will need years before it can even match up to the old warhorse al-31,,,let alone modern powerplants.


lol! J-20 is running on WS-10G. J-31 is not even endorsed by PLAAF. Lost of words?
Your kaveri engine is not even fit to fly on LCA prototype. But a swipe at me? Why not look into the mirror and see what technology level india is at? Garbage 





Chinese J-11BH 'aggressive' with USN P-8A, says DoD - IHS Jane's 360

Operational J-11BH intercept USN P-8A spotted fitted with Taihang WS-10A engine and photo taken by USN.

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## he-man

Beast said:


> lol! J-20 is running on WS-10G. J-31 is not even endorsed by PLAAF. Lost of words?
> Your kaveri engine is not even fit to fly on LCA prototype. But a swipe at me? Why not look into the mirror and see what technology level india is at? Garbage
> View attachment 158568
> 
> 
> Chinese J-11BH 'aggressive' with USN P-8A, says DoD - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> Operational J-11BH intercept USN P-8A spotted fitted with Taihang WS-10A engine and photo taken by USN.


----------



## Beast

he-man said:


>



Indian loser laugh at themselves and hide their head in like ostrich.

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## he-man

Beast said:


> Indian loser laugh at themselves and hide their head in like ostrich.



Or that ostrich may kick someone ignorant to wake him up to reality


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## j20blackdragon

Horus said:


> I don't think that would be feasible. It may require a total redesign of the airframe.



It's feasible and yes it would require a redesign. The US was planning a larger FB-22 based on the F-22. Obviously you would have to spend more money to do it, but certain technologies can be transfered over from the F-22 to lower costs.

It's all just a theory of mine so bear with me.

I don't believe the FC-31 is a PLAAF plane. The PLAAF has never operated any planes with RD-93/WS-13 and I don't see why they would suddenly start now. Basically, I believe the FC-31 is the stealth equivalent to the FC-1 program. Both are purpose built export planes and both share the same engines.

The fact that China built both the FC-1 and J-10 is a good example. The FC-1 was purpose built for export. The J-10 was designed for PLAAF use. China had the money to design and build two separate single engine fighters. The VT4 tank is another example. It's built for the export market. China doesn't use it.

So if J-20 with WS-15 is the 'high-end' of the high-low mix, what's the 'low-end' if it's not the FC-31? I believe there is a third J-XX that has yet to be revealed. A stealth fighter slightly smaller than the PAK FA powered by two WS-10 engines is something China can very easily do. It would also be a 'low risk' program to ensure that China had a stealth fighter if the J-20 failed. 

Another possibility is a J-XX powered by a single WS-15 like this.


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## Beast

he-man said:


> Or that ostrich may kick someone ignorant to wake him up to reality


WHat reality? Indian engine technology surpassed China? Please back your words. My description of Indian as ostrich hiding their is perfect correct. I have always post photo and links as affirmative while Indian ostrich will posed nothing constructive in their reply. You want to live in delusion, I am not stopping you but if you want to create false lies then I have the obligation to expose inferiority complex.

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## Beast

j20blackdragon said:


> It's feasible and yes it would require a redesign. The US was planning a larger FB-22 based on the F-22. Obviously you would have to spend more money to do it, but certain technologies can be transfered over from the F-22 to lower costs.
> 
> It's all just a theory of mine so bear with me.
> 
> I don't believe the FC-31 is a PLAAF plane. The PLAAF has never operated any planes with RD-93/WS-13 and I don't see why they would suddenly start now. Basically, I believe the FC-31 is the stealth equivalent to the FC-1 program. Both are purpose built export planes and both share the same engines.
> 
> The fact that China built both the FC-1 and J-10 is a good example. The FC-1 was purpose built for export. The J-10 was designed for PLAAF use. China had the money to design and build two separate single engine fighters. The VT4 tank is another example. It's built for the export market. China doesn't use it.
> 
> So if J-20 with WS-15 is the 'high-end' of the high-low mix, what's the 'low-end' if it's not the FC-31? I believe there is a third J-XX that has yet to be revealed. A stealth fighter slightly smaller than the PAK FA powered by two WS-10 engines is something China can very easily do. It would also be a 'low risk' program to ensure that China had a stealth fighter if the J-20 failed.
> 
> Another possibility is a J-XX powered by a single WS-15 like this.
> 
> View attachment 158600



Not neccessary. If mid thrust engine of WS-13 is successful. PLAAF may design an carrier based aircraft based on that domestic engine. Mid size and larger J-15 combo onboard carrier is still the best feasible solution. If PLANAF design another aircraft around WS-10A, it will end up another large carrier borne aircraft.


----------



## j20blackdragon

Beast said:


> Not neccessary. If mid thrust engine of WS-13 is successful. PLAAF may design an carrier based aircraft based on that domestic engine. Mid size and larger J-15 combo onboard carrier is still the best feasible solution. If PLANAF design another aircraft around WS-10A, it will end up another large carrier borne aircraft.



Having two large aircraft is fine, one stealth and one non-stealth. The USAF operates both the F-22 and F-15. There's nothing wrong with that.

Let me just put it like this. If I were in charge of the PLAAF, and I had to choose between a stealth fighter with WS-13 or a stealth fighter with WS-10, I would choose WS-10 hands down.

The WS-13 is not operational as far as we know. China doesn't operate any aircraft at all with RD-93/WS-13. The FC-1/JF-17 isn't in service with the PLAAF. We don't even have a picture of the WS-13. The WS-13 was a no-show at Zhuhai 2014.

Meanwhile, the WS-10 offers more thrust and is a mature design. It already powers the J-11B/BS. China has already shown the ability to design and build two stealth fighters. China has tons of money. It would be very easy to do a third J-XX powered by WS-10. It would be a low risk project. We won't have to wait for WS-15. The aircraft would be ready now.

This is of course just a theory. But I still believe there is a third stealth fighter.


----------



## Akasa

he-man said:


> Ya.thats why fc-31 and j-20 still flying in russian engines??
> WS will need years before it can even match up to the old warhorse al-31,,,let alone modern powerplants.



A bit more research can do wonders. The WS-10 already powers the J-11B (since 2009), J-16, as well as the prototypes of the J-15 and J-10B, which is a testament of its relative maturity. The engine produces more wet thrust than the Al-31 that the PLAAF currently adopts.

The fact that the production J-31/15/10B doesn't currently use Chinese engines can be due to a host of reasons, which does not necessarily have to entail the issue of performance of reliability.


----------



## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> A bit more research can do wonders. The WS-10 already powers the J-11B (since 2009), J-16, as well as the prototypes of the J-15 and J-10B, which is a testament of its relative maturity. The engine produces more wet thrust than the Al-31 that the PLAAF currently adopts.
> 
> The fact that the production J-31/15/10B doesn't currently use Chinese engines can be due to a host of reasons, which does not necessarily have to entail the issue of performance of reliability.



Not necessarily but quite possibly.


----------



## Akasa

he-man said:


> Not necessarily but quite possibly.



Until there is further light or information shed on this matter, it is better to temper the urge to make rash conclusions.


----------



## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> Until there is further light or information shed on this matter, it is better to temper the urge to make rash conclusions.



I never make rash conclusions unlike ur country men who claim russian engines are past the date.
I just say u guys are still years behind.


----------



## conworldus

he-man said:


> I never make rash conclusions unlike ur country men who claim russian engines are past the date.
> I just say u guys are still years behind.



Whatever you say.

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## he-man

conworldus said:


> Whatever you say.



Honor is all mine


----------



## Akasa

he-man said:


> I never make rash conclusions unlike ur country men who claim russian engines are past the date.
> I just say u guys are still years behind.



That, unfortunately, is another rash conclusion.


----------



## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> That, unfortunately, is another rash conclusion.



Not at all............considering u guys are still going for russian engines in majority of aircraft.
Engines take time.


----------



## Beast

he-man said:


> Not at all............considering u guys are still going for russian engines in majority of aircraft.
> Engines take time.


JH-7A uses WS-9A(domestic engine), J-11B/BH, J-11BS,J-16 and J-15 uses WS-10A/H. J-20 uses WS-10G. Only J-10A uses AL-31FN(russia). Even the H-6k uses WS-18 engine.

Our Navy uses all domestic gas turbine.

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## he-man

Beast said:


> JH-7A uses WS-9A(domestic engine), J-11B/BH, J-11BS,J-16 and J-15 uses WS-10A/H. J-20 uses WS-10G. Only J-10A uses AL-31FN(russia). Even the H-6k uses WS-18 engine.
> 
> Our Navy uses all domestic gas turbine.



Everything is debatable in ur post and 0 proof exists.
If not please quote me the thrust figures of these engines along with total life from any source.

I mean any source,,i really have no idea if u are speaking truth or not.


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## Beast

he-man said:


> Everything is debatable in ur post and 0 proof exists.
> If not please quote me the thrust figures of these engines along with total life from any source.
> 
> I mean any source,,i really have no idea if u are speaking truth or not.


) proof? More like you try to continue your delusion. UK has stop export of Sprey engine in the mid-2000 plus the old sprey thrust is not good enough for heavy upgraded JH-7A version. WS-9II is an upgraded of old sprey engine developed with longer lifespan, high thrust that meets the 21st century needs.

JH-7 Chief Designer: Qinling-2 Turbofan is competitive to French M53-P2 engine | China Defense Mashup

As for WS-10A, i think I do not need to go thru that again. I have prove many times and repeated enough.

Even our JL-9 advance trainer uses WP-13 Kunlun engine.

China is developing WS-18 for H-6K Bomber | China Defense Mashup

New H-6K uses a newly develop domestic WS-18 to replace D-30K turbofan.

Y-9 transport plane who debuts in 2014 zhuhai airshow uses WJ-6 turboprop. 

That will make PLAAF using 80% domestic engine to power the fleet.

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## Akasa

he-man said:


> Not at all............considering u guys are still going for russian engines in majority of aircraft.
> Engines take time.



Sure, the Chinese are still quite reliant on Russian engines. But that does not necessarily imply that the quality or performance of Chinese engines are the sole factors to blame here. Not all platforms were designed with Chinese engines in mind and not all Chinese engines are produced in sufficient quantities capable of satisfying the rate of airframe production, to name a few examples.

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## j20blackdragon

he-man said:


> Everything is debatable in ur post and 0 proof exists.
> If not please quote me the thrust figures of these engines along with total life from any source.
> 
> I mean any source,,i really have no idea if u are speaking truth or not.



WS-10's maximum thrust is 14,000 kgf, confirmed at Zhuhai 2014.







Here is the WS-10 on full display at Zhuhai 2014






Recent interview confirms several things:

- WS-10 thrust-to-weight ratio is 8.
- WS-10 is in mass production.
- Maximum thrust is 14,000 kgf.
- Engine life is 1,500 hours.

Here is a link to the interview.

涡扇10研发人员：中美发动机差距不到10年|中国|发动机|珠海航展_新浪军事

It's in Chinese. However, you can certainly use Bing Translator to confirm what I just said. Happy now?

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## he-man

j20blackdragon said:


> WS-10's maximum thrust is 14,000 kgf, confirmed at Zhuhai 2014.
> 
> View attachment 158992
> 
> 
> Here is the WS-10 on full display at Zhuhai 2014
> 
> View attachment 158993
> 
> 
> Recent interview confirms several things:
> 
> - WS-10 thrust-to-weight ratio is 8.
> - WS-10 is in mass production.
> - Maximum thrust is 14,000 kgf.
> - Engine life is 1,500 hours.
> 
> Here is a link to the interview.
> 
> 涡扇10研发人员：中美发动机差距不到10年|中国|发动机|珠海航展_新浪军事
> 
> It's in Chinese. However, you can certainly use Bing Translator to confirm what I just said. Happy now?



Yes,i am a reasonable man just asking for proof
See that life of 1500 hours is same as al-31f series,,,,rd-33mk,rd-93,idz 117s and idz 117 all are at 4000 hours.

Plus 117S HAS T/W OF 10.5.

But sure u guys are making good progress


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## j20blackdragon

WS-10 is a project of national strategic importance. You don't have to worry about China not supporting or funding this engine.

With this engine, we can finally begin mass production of large numbers of J-10B/C, J-11B, J-11D, J-15, and J-16. No need for the Su-35.

And this is one of the reasons why I believe there is a secret J-XX fighter powered by WS-10. This is China's most mature engine. It's already in service with the J-11B. How dumb would you have to be to ignore the WS-10 and go for WS-13 for your next-gen stealth fighter? We don't even have a picture of the FC-1/JF-17 being powered by WS-13 for Pete's sake.

So my conclusion is that WS-13 is a low priority engine for export planes like FC-1/JF-17 and FC-31.

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## sweetgrape

Some pictures of F-31 in Zhuhai air show 2014:

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## 帅的一匹



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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 160583
> 
> 
> View attachment 160583


The wing and control fin tip shall be further slanted to improve stealth. Almost perfect PS J-31 production model.

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## Ultima Thule

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 160583
> 
> 
> View attachment 160583


 i don't like this camouflage, btw it is better to have similar that of F-22 or F-35. no hard feeling


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## Warwolf

Pakistan is going to buy 4o to 5o of these babes


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## Ultima Thule

Warwolf said:


> Pakistan is going to buy 4o to 5o of these babes


to early to say that we are getting these babies before 2020, my estimate that we will have these babies as soon as possible is 2022 to 2025, today Chinese is more concentrating on J-20 and less FC-31


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## cnleio

Inside China SAC's FC-31 factory

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## Stealth

*f*ing RAPTOR! WOW! it will look so sexy in J20/Raptor Silver color scheme with yellowish Canopy!*


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## SOHEIL

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 160583
> 
> 
> View attachment 160583



CGI ?


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## cirr

“Dialogue”！“Dialogue”！！

Those who are interested in 31001 and future FC-31 should watch CCTV-2‘s “Dialogue” programme aired last night at 21:55 Beijing Time。

Super aircraft with super-structure，according to the MANY bigwigs from the 31001 team。

Now we have 5S。

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> “Dialogue”！“Dialogue”！！
> 
> Those who are interested in 31001 and future FC-31 should watch CCTV-2‘s “Dialogue” programme aired last night at 21:55 Beijing Time。
> 
> Super aircraft with super-structure，according to the MANY bigwigs from the 31001 team。
> 
> Now we have 5S。



5S won't be achieved until the second prototype makes its run next year.


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## 帅的一匹

J31 is nealy all made up with composite material/laser printing technology/integral modling technology, it's extremely light weight compared to the old 4th gen design. So i finally understand why it has 1200 plus KM combat radius. This baby will definitely bite big in the international market.

We just wait the domestic engine installed on it, the big time for Chinese airforce is coming.



SinoSoldier said:


> 5S won't be achieved until the second prototype makes its run next year.


I think the goverment shall invest in the 31001 project, i personally really appreciate the hardworking of AVIC.



Stealth said:


> *f*ing RAPTOR! WOW! it will look so sexy in J20/Raptor Silver color scheme with yellowish Canopy!*


It is just the very begining, wait and see.

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## cirr

For those who missed CCTV-2's ”31001 Speical“ last night：

《对话》 20141207 角力天空的中国力量_对话_视频_央视网

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## Beast

cirr said:


> For those who missed CCTV-2's ”31001 Speical“ last night：
> 
> 《对话》 20141207 角力天空的中国力量_对话_视频_央视网


This talk is crap. Talks about nothing much but plenty of self praising. Beside bragging about how J-31 is going to surpass F-35 and shot it down without much explanation. What we want is more concrete facts regarding J-31, especially the AESA radar and domestic engine. Their dialogue is as good as nothing.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> This talk is crap. Talks about nothing much but plenty of self praising. Beside bragging about how J-31 is going to surpass F-35 and shot it down without much explanation. What we want is more concrete facts regarding J-31, especially the AESA radar and domestic engine. Their dialogue is as good as nothing.


Very few key info disclosed, typical CCP way of telling things. I get bore with these kinds of unsubstantial talk. I want solid evidence that J31 can shoot F35 down. said F35's engine would stop working if the fuel is overheating.

He didn't talk anything related to WS13 engine progress and the radar used on J31. He is just too conservative.

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Very few key info disclosed, typical CCP way of telling things. I get bore with these kinds of unsubstantial talk. I want solid evidence that J31 can shoot F35 down. said F35's engine would stop working if the fuel is overheating.
> 
> He didn't talk anything related to WS13 engine progress and the radar used on J31. He is just too conservative.


Yes, those are key point and they are not revealing anything how to convince the world with those smokey engine. Definitely WS-13 engine is in progress and in late stage but by not revealing anything doesn't help anything.

And another disapointing facts about this zhuhai 2014 airshow is not a single fighter avionics or radar is on display for export. At least an export version of AESA/PESA shall be available for export. But not a single of them. 

Year 2014 is a disappointing year for China military advancement. Slow commissioning of major warship like frigate and DDG. Carrier wing not formed yet.

The only top breakthru I can give for China military 2014 will be HJ-12 FnF ATGM.

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## he-man

Beast said:


> Yes, those are key point and they are not revealing anything how to convince the world with those smokey engine. Definitely WS-13 engine is in progress and in late stage but by not revealing anything doesn't help anything.
> 
> And another disapointing facts about this zhuhai 2014 airshow is not a single fighter avionics or radar is on display for export. At least an export version of AESA/PESA shall be available for export. But not a single of them.
> 
> Year 2014 is a disappointing year for China military advancement. Slow commissioning of major warship like frigate and DDG. Carrier wing not formed yet.
> 
> The only top breakthru I can give for China military 2014 will be HJ-12 FnF ATGM.



U can ask russia for irbis-e pesa for j-31
Of course u won't get 2300 t/r elements n036 byelka radar


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## Beast

he-man said:


> U can ask russia for irbis-e pesa for j-31
> Of course u won't get 2300 t/r elements n036 byelka radar



Russia? their electronic is worst than us. We do not lack good radar but lack a good radar for export. Those Chinese engineer havent get ready for a monkey version yet

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## Akasa

he-man said:


> 1522 is a huge amount considering the beam will be over just 80-100 degrees as beyond that the side arrays will do the work.



The similar sized pesa,,irbis e has a peak power of 20 kw with detection for 3m2 at 400 km and .01m2 at 90 km.So this will most probably even surpass that.

It's better to wait until more objective data appears in order to gauge its, but its tri-directional array is certainly interesting.





he-man said:


> They just unveiled poliment aesa on gorkshov class frigate.
> Regarding awacs,,they will be upgraded with vega premier aesa radars soon,,the problem is not tech but money.
> 
> 
> View attachment 162844
> View attachment 162845



AESA development in the naval sector is closely related to that of the aviation sector.



he-man said:


> In fighter jet radars they are still ahead of china.



And yet they have produced much less models of AESA radars, do not have multiple institutions competing for the design of such a system, has not deployed one single operational airborne equipment that bears this system, and does not seem to have the history of using it either.


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## 帅的一匹

Russia don't have money, very poor.


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## cnleio

@he-man say HELLO to China aircraft AESA radar & J-10B, Indian.

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## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> And yet they have produced much less models of AESA radars, do not have multiple institutions competing for the design of such a system, has not deployed one single operational airborne equipment that bears this system, and does not seem to have the history of using it either.



They have monetary problems.

But difference in fighter aesa and ship based system is cooling.Russians have much more experience as a result have more examples of fighter aesas ie zhuk ae which is unde testing for 4 years now with its 2 variations fga-29 and 35.

And n036 for pakfa under testing since 2 years.

But recently they have started making kick *** vessels like this







cnleio said:


> @he-man say HELLO to China aircraft AESA radar & J-10B
> 
> View attachment 162854
> 
> View attachment 162855



I myself posted these pics sometimes back,,the issue is about j-31 and j-20 radar.
Another thing being thislooks more like a pesa than an aesa due to the iff antennas in between elements.



SinoSoldier said:


> It's better to wait until more objective data appears in order to gauge its, but its tri-directional array is certainly interesting.



Considering average power of each t/r element to be 10 watts which is pretty standard it will have power of roughly 23 k watt.



wanglaokan said:


> Russia don't have money, very poor.



Actually they have to allocate huge amount of money to bombers and submarines too so naturally they don't have enough to make every ship aesa based.Aesas are costly.


----------



## Akasa

he-man said:


> They have monetary problems.
> 
> But difference in fighter aesa and ship based system is cooling.Russians have much more experience as a result have more examples of fighter aesas ie zhuk ae which is unde testing for 4 years now with its 2 variations fga-29 and 35.
> 
> And n036 for pakfa under testing since 2 years.
> 
> But recently they have started making kick *** vessels like this
> View attachment 162856



There is little evidence, if any at all, to suggest who's ahead of who in terms of cooling systems. 
Uh, no, the Russians never had more examples of fighters with AESA compared to the Chinese, who will be fielding the J-10B, J-11B, J-15, J-16, J-20, and J-31 with the said systems.



he-man said:


> I myself posted these pics sometimes back,,the issue is about j-31 and j-20 radar.
> Another thing being thislooks more like a pesa than an aesa due to the iff antennas in between elements.



This is indeed the prototype for the J-10B's PESA radar, which did not make it into service and was replaced by the active phased array radar instead, the diagram of which was posted a few threads back.


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## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> There is little evidence, if any at all, to suggest who's ahead of who in terms of cooling systems.
> Uh, no, the Russians never had more examples of fighters with AESA compared to the Chinese, who will be fielding the J-10B, J-11B, J-15, J-16, J-20, and J-31 with the said systems.



0 proof yet,,not 1 photograph.I am sorry.



SinoSoldier said:


> This is indeed the prototype for the J-10B's PESA radar, which did not make it into service and was replaced by the active phased array radar instead, the diagram of which was posted a few threads back.



Diagrams don't count.


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## Akasa

he-man said:


> 0 proof yet,,not 1 photograph.I am sorry.



Authoritativeness is not up for a single individual to decide, regardless of photos or lack thereof.



he-man said:


> Diagrams don't count.



If a paper from the company that builds the radar "doesn't count", then what does?

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## cnleio

he-man said:


> I myself posted these pics sometimes back,,the issue is about j-31 and j-20 radar.
> Another thing being thislooks more like a pesa than an aesa due to the iff antennas in between elements.


U just waste ur time

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## he-man

cnleio said:


> U just waste ur time
> 
> View attachment 162867



Stop trolling, unless u have a picture don't quote me again with vague things.



SinoSoldier said:


> If a paper from the company that builds the radar "doesn't count", then what does?



Its just a paper,,unless u show the picture.



SinoSoldier said:


> Authoritativeness is not up for a single individual to decide, regardless of photos or lack thereof.



World works on proof.


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## Akasa

he-man said:


> Stop trolling, unless u have a picture don't quote me again with vague things.



What makes a photo more authoritative than what was released by the company itself?




he-man said:


> Its just a paper,,unless u show the picture.
> 
> World works on proof.



It's about time you realize that not every facet of proof revolves around photos.

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## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> It's about time you realize that not every facet of proof revolves around photos.



No it does not but when we talk about photo released by tikhomirov niip that made bars pesa,irbis e pesa too then it lends credibility.

Same with zhuk-ae made by phozotron niir.

U have nothing to quote except vague diagrams.


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## cnleio

he-man said:


> Stop trolling, unless u have a picture don't quote me again with vague things.


U lack enough military knowledge, stop trolling.

F-22 radar test plane





J-20 radar test plane

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## Akasa

he-man said:


> No it does not but when we talk about photo released by tikhomirov niip that made bars pesa,irbis e pesa too then it lends credibility.
> 
> Same with zhuk-ae made by phozotron niir.
> 
> U have nothing to quote except vague diagrams.



Credibility isn't decided by how visually-stimulating it is. Diagrams and the text that goes with it are equally implicit of the existence of such a system as are visual methods.


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## he-man

cnleio said:


> U lack enough military knowledge, stop trolling.
> 
> F-22 radar test plane
> View attachment 162873
> 
> 
> J-20 radar test plane
> View attachment 162874



U seem to be too STUBBORN to understand that u are not showing any proof.
ANY

_APG-77 AESA PICTURE IS AVAILABLE FOR ANYONE TO SEE.No chinese pic means its not mature enough._



SinoSoldier said:


> Credibility isn't decided by how visually-stimulating it is. Diagrams and the text that goes with it are equally implicit of the existence of such a system as are visual methods.



Its not a philosophy session here mate.


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## Akasa

he-man said:


> U seem to be too STUBBORN to understand that u are not showing any proof.
> ANY
> 
> _APG-77 AESA PICTURE IS AVAILABLE FOR ANYONE TO SEE.No chinese pic means its not mature enough._




Correct this post if it's wrong, but I do believe you were advocating pictures as the "best" means of proof; isn't that what you were provided?




he-man said:


> Its not a philosophy session here mate.



Then don't make it into one.


----------



## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> Correct this post if it's wrong, but I do believe you were advocating pictures as the "best" means of proof; isn't that what you were provided?



Chinese haven't made one world class fighter jet radar yet so sorry if i am so sceptical.On the top of that u have no proof of its existence,,what am i supposed to do?


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## cnleio

he-man said:


> U seem to be too STUBBORN to understand that u are not showing any proof.
> ANY
> 
> _APG-77 AESA PICTURE IS AVAILABLE FOR ANYONE TO SEE.No chinese pic means its not mature enough._


LOL ... Do u see F-22's radar before ? Can u just tell me which radar better, F-22's or Russian APG-77 ?

So how u know J-20 without a AESA radar, when China also update a new testing plane for J-20 like American did for F-22 ?

Yes right now i didn't provide real J-20's AESA radar to u, only a radar test plane like F-22 did. So just enjoy it, poor Indian.

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## Akasa

he-man said:


> Chinese haven't made one world class fighter jet radar yet so sorry if i am so sceptical.On the top of that u have no proof of its existence,,what am i supposed to do?



Did you not read a single post within the past three pages of the thread or am I wasting time here?


----------



## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> Did you not read a single post within the past three pages of the thread or am I wasting time here?



U are simply wasting my time by arguing now.
When the radar is mature and u have proof,we will have a debate.



cnleio said:


> LOL ... Do u see F-22's radar before ? Can u just tell me which radar better, F-22's or Russian APG-77 ?



Stop ur childish rants.Better search for proof.
As for ur question apg-77 is 15 years old tech so naturally not as good as modern aesas.

The benchmark today would be apg-81 of f-35 simply because of experience of usa alone.It woulld be their 3rd of 4 th gen aesa.


----------



## Akasa

he-man said:


> U are simply wasting my time by arguing now.
> When the radar is mature and u have proof,we will have a debate.



Everybody is entitled to what they believe in; their ability or reluctance to do so will lie within their interpretations of the things presented to them and may be independent of how things really are.


----------



## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> Everybody is entitled to what they believe in; their ability or reluctance to do so will lie within their interpretations of the things presented to them and may be independent of how things really are.



Fair enough man


----------



## Akasa

he-man said:


> Fair enough man



Good. I'm glad we ended on a relatively positive note.

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## he-man

SinoSoldier said:


> Good. I'm glad we ended on a relatively positive note.



No need to fight.I just like tech,i don't care if its chinese or russian.All my earphones ae chinese like vsonic gr07,vc02,brainwavz m3 to name a few.


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## j20blackdragon

The F-22 Flying Test Bed is a modified Boeing 757-200 that was used to flight-test the F-22's avionics, including the APG-77 radar. The entire F-22 forward fuselage and radar were fitted to the front of the plane for testing.

Boeing: Image Gallery







The fact that China has shown a 'J-20 Flying Test Bed' is better than a picture of a radar at an airshow. It shows that China is testing all the integrated avionics (including radar) together.










Here's the Lockheed CATBird used to test the F-35's APG-81.

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## Beast

he-man said:


> They have monetary problems.
> 
> But difference in fighter aesa and ship based system is cooling.Russians have much more experience as a result have more examples of fighter aesas ie zhuk ae which is unde testing for 4 years now with its 2 variations fga-29 and 35.
> 
> And n036 for pakfa under testing since 2 years.
> 
> But recently they have started making kick *** vessels like this
> View attachment 162856
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I myself posted these pics sometimes back,,the issue is about j-31 and j-20 radar.
> Another thing being thislooks more like a pesa than an aesa due to the iff antennas in between elements.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering average power of each t/r element to be 10 watts which is pretty standard it will have power of roughly 23 k watt.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually they have to allocate huge amount of money to bombers and submarines too so naturally they don't have enough to make every ship aesa based.Aesas are costly.


 This is nonsense. Russian AESA is not modern enough. If money is a problem, Russia shall be more willing to sell their advance AESA to indian for their destroyer and AWACS to earn hardcash. Apparently, Russia offer is not up to standards which forces indian to procure better AESA from Israel. Even China do know that Russia offer is not up to standards and we need to do it ourselves.

As for PAFKA, Russia will not be dumb enough to allow Israel radar install on their fighter which India needs to stick with everything Russia. It's a out of no choice.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> This is nonsense. Russian AESA is not modern enough. If money is a problem, Russia shall be more willing to sell their advance AESA to indian for their destroyer and AWACS to earn hardcash. Apparently, Russia offer is not up to standards which forces indian to procure better AESA from Israel. Even China do know that Russia offer is not up to standards and we need to do it ourselves.
> 
> As for PAFKA, Russia will not be dumb enough to allow Israel radar install on their fighter which India needs to stick with everything Russia. It's a out of no choice.


The boss of AVIC had confirmed that J31 is installed AESA in the talk show, SU35 ONLY has PESA and it has huge RCS. I think SU35 is the king in dog fight, not quite sure its performance in BVR.

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> The boss of AVIC had confirmed that J31 is installed AESA in the talk show, SU35 ONLY has PESA and it has huge RCS. I think SU35 is the king in dog fight, not quite sure its performance in BVR.


I am disappointed with AVIC boss not revealing anything concrete other than talks. I hope year 2015 is a breakthrough for Chinese fighter radar and jet engine propulsion by revealing more data and showing in service of it.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> I am disappointed with AVIC boss not revealing anything concrete other than talks. I hope year 2015 is a breakthrough for Chinese fighter radar and jet engine propulsion by revealing more data and showing in service of it.


It takes another five years to let the engien go matured.


----------



## he-man

wanglaokan said:


> The boss of AVIC had confirmed that J31 is installed AESA in the talk show, SU35 ONLY has PESA and it has huge RCS. I think SU35 is the king in dog fight, not quite sure its performance in BVR.



j-31 won't get foc before 4-5 years at least,,its just a prototype.



Beast said:


> This is nonsense. Russian AESA is not modern enough. If money is a problem, Russia shall be more willing to sell their advance AESA to indian for their destroyer and AWACS to earn hardcash. Apparently, Russia offer is not up to standards which forces indian to procure better AESA from Israel. Even China do know that Russia offer is not up to standards and we need to do it ourselves.
> 
> As for PAFKA, Russia will not be dumb enough to allow Israel radar install on their fighter which India needs to stick with everything Russia. It's a out of no choice.



China was going to purchase the phalcon awacs from israel which usa denied
Israeli radars are that good.

When it was denied,,chinese developed their own aesa.


----------



## Beast

he-man said:


> j-31 won't get foc before 4-5 years at least,,its just a prototype.
> 
> 
> 
> China was going to purchase the phalcon awacs from israel which usa denied
> Israeli radars are that good.
> 
> When it was denied,,chinese developed their own aesa.


 That was 2004 years ago incident. That time our super computer can't even make it top 10. Now is after more than 10 years. And in 2014, our super computer is even world fastest. The US until now can't even make one that can beat us.

Same as our avionics. Our destroyer , fighter and ground radar all uses domestic make AESA radar and no other side help is needed.

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## Kompromat

He-man has been thread banned for trolling.

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## Place Of Space

Horus said:


> He-man has been thread banned for trolling.



That guy shows quality of Indian, speaking everything for us why that's India today.

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## SOHEIL



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## VelocuR

FC-31's Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)











Is this EOTS similar to F-35's advanced ETOS? Is this new or old technology used in previous airforces? I didn't see Russia installed on latest SU-35 Super Flanker or T-50?

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## j20blackdragon



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## Oracle

any update for second prototype ?


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## Martian2

*Supercruise*





(_Picture source of J-31: ChinaDefenseMashup_) Popular Science: "*The J-31 differs from the F-35 in that it has two engines, which in turn reduces its area ruling, making for more efficient supersonic flight*, including future supercruise once the J-31 obtains more powerful engines."

A couple of years ago, I was going to write a post about "supercruise." It slipped my mind and I just remembered now that I forgot to write the post.
----------

There are three types of supercruise.

1. *Supercruise at level flight.* This is real supercruise. The aircraft is flying along and the engine revs up to supercruise.

2. *Supercruise in a dive.* This is a cheesy supercruise. An aircraft may not be able to achieve supercruise in level flight. However, at a high enough altitude and in a steep dive, gravity may provide sufficient help to achieve temporary supercruise in a dive.

3. *Supercruise with afterburner.* This is another cheesy supercruise. Fly along in a level flight and dump tremendous amounts of fuel into the afterburner for a temporary supercruise.

Another way to cheat and achieve supercruise is by reducing weight. Remove all armaments on a fighter jet. This is unrealistic in a real war. Also, you could remove 3/4 of a plane's fuel and supercruise with a mostly empty jet fighter (which is again unrealistic in a real war).

I'm not sure, but I think a "clean" Eurofighter Typhoon without armaments achieved supercruise.

In summary, a plane can achieve really cheesy supercruise if you combine all of the cheat methods listed above. Take a Eurofighter Typhoon and remove most of the fuel, armaments, and hit the afterburner in a dive.

The point is to beware the claim of a jet fighter's ability to supercruise. Everyone knows an armed F-22 can supercruise in level flight. All other claims of supercruise should be viewed with skepticism until you know the circumstances.

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## cirr

Long time no see!

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## Deino

Any news about a possible second prototype ??


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Any news about a possible second prototype ??



May see the light of the day by year end。

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## Martian2

*J-31 is stealthier than F-35 due to thin wing root and straight weapon bay*





The Chinese J-31 has a thin straight wing root. "Thin" means a small surface area for reflecting radar waves. "Straight" conforms with facet design to minimize reflection direction.





The American F-35 has a thick wing root. Thick means more surface area for radar reflection. Also, the F-35 wing root is roundish. Round is terrible for stealth. It means multiple directions for radar reflections. [Note: "Continuous curvature" is like a duck bill and not related to round.]





All three F-35 versions share a common airframe. The STOVL version (or F-35B) requires a lift-fan and leads to an unstealthy thick wing root and angled bay doors.

A fundamental problem with the F-35 design is the specification to accommodate a vertical-takeoff lift-fan for the F-35B STOVL version. Since all three versions of the F-35 must have the same basic airframe, we see the same unstealthy characteristics on all F-35 versions.

Due to the F-35 airframe that can support a lift-fan (whether it is actually present on the A and C versions is not relevant), all F-35s have a thick wing root. The thick wing root is not stealthy. The J-31 has a much thinner wing root and it is stealthier.

Also, the middle of the F-35 bottom fuselage is reserved for the lift-fan exhaust. This means the F-35 bay doors have to be skewed. This is bad aerodynamics (due to increased air resistance) and lead to much heavier hydraulics on the doors to push/keep it open at high speed. The increased weight leads to degraded F-35 acceleration and maneuverability performance.

Finally, due to the lack of room, the F-35 weapon bays bulge outward. There is a lack of space, because the center fuselage is reserved for the lift-fan and exhaust duct. The bulging F-35 weapon bays are not stealthy. It degrades the imperative of facet-shaping stealth.

In conclusion, the Chinese J-31 stealth fighter design is superior to the American F-35. The F-35 is less stealthy, because its specification requires a fuselage to accommodate a lift-fan.

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## Dr. Strangelove

i havent followed this thread for a while now so i dont know much about it other than PAF is interested in fc 31
my question is simple
is its only for export or PLA will induct it ?


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## Superboy

It looks like development canceled. No more prototype.


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## Deino

Superboy said:


> It looks like development canceled. No more prototype.




Why do You think so ???


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## That Guy

Superboy said:


> It looks like development canceled. No more prototype.


Based on your opinion, and not facts. Building stealth aircraft take time.


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## sinaloa

Superboy said:


> It looks like development canceled. No more prototype.


Ladies from FC-31 team featured in recent newspapers and websites, so I don't think they are shutting down the project.

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## Gufi

Dr. Stranglove said:


> is its only for export or PLA will induct it ?


It will be available. The J-20 will not be

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## cnleio



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## Akasa

Hopefully the second and improved prototype will make its appearance soon.


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## UKBengali

SinoSoldier said:


> Hopefully the second and improved prototype will make its appearance soon.



The next prototype may feature the WS-13 engine.


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## Oracle

there is no info about 2nd prototype, neither about testing of 31001 . so pace is slow as compared to govt backed J20


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Oracle said:


> there is no info about 2nd prototype, neither about testing of 31001 . so pace is slow as compared to govt backed J20


It seem like they are still waiting for a new engine.


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## That Guy

SinoSoldier said:


> Hopefully the second and improved prototype will make its appearance soon.


Is there any sort of timeline expected? Because the second prototype is going to open the flood gate for future prototypes.


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## Akasa

That Guy said:


> Is there any sort of timeline expected? Because the second prototype is going to open the flood gate for future prototypes.



According to "insiders", the first flight is expected within 2015; it was rumored that the original plan was to have it fly at the 2014 airshow but delays got the better of it.

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## That Guy

SinoSoldier said:


> According to "insiders", the first flight is expected within 2015; it was rumored that the original plan was to have it fly at the 2014 airshow but delays got the better of it.


Delays are expected. The biggest thing I've learned by going into the tech field is that, the bigger the project, the higher chance of delays or outright failure. I doubt it will fail, but a project this big, delays are expected.

Regardless, I can't wait to see the second prototype! It should be a huge improvement on the current version.


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## Akasa

That Guy said:


> Delays are expected. The biggest thing I've learned by going into the tech field is that, the bigger the project, the higher chance of delays or outright failure. I doubt it will fail, but a project this big, delays are expected.



Yes, but it would be better if people adopted Thomas Edison's mindset: "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work". Granted, the limited budget involved with the private FC-31 project is a pain as well.



That Guy said:


> Regardless, I can't wait to see the second prototype! It should be a huge improvement on the current version.



There was a model; from what can be deduced from it, the version should feature a single piece canopy, F-35-style vertical stabilizers, cropped wings, EOTS, and possibly new engines.

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## That Guy

SinoSoldier said:


> Yes, but it would be better if people adopted Thomas Edison's mindset: "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work". Granted, the limited budget involved with the private FC-31 project is a pain as well.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a model; from what can be deduced from it, the version should feature a single piece canopy, F-35-style vertical stabilizers, cropped wings, EOTS, and possibly new engines.


The engines are the biggest concern, if this (and the j-20) is to be a successful project. Can't help your most technologically advanced fighter be reliant on a foreign supplier, can we?


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## milvipes

Artist's impression of FC-31 in hypothetical Argentine colors.


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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> Yes, but it would be better if people adopted Thomas Edison's mindset: "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work". Granted, the limited budget involved with the private FC-31 project is a pain as well.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a model; from what can be deduced from it, the version should feature a single piece canopy, F-35-style vertical stabilizers, cropped wings, EOTS, and possibly new engines.


But there shall also be a time limit. If is become operation too late and next generation fighter comes out. There is no point inducting it.

The best way for this project to hasten is to have foreign investment of it. I hope the Indonesian abandon their KFX project and instead pump fund into this J-31 or if pakistan still have extra fund. It will do them good to invest this project just like JF-17.

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## Kompromat

Beast said:


> But there shall also be a time limit. If is become operation too late and next generation fighter comes out. There is no point inducting it.
> 
> The best way for this project to hasten is to have foreign investment of it. I hope the Indonesian abandon their KFX project and instead pump fund into this J-31 or if pakistan still have extra fund. It will do them good to invest this project just like JF-17.



Any idea when the next prototype is due for testing?

@Deino


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## Deino

Horus said:


> Any idea when the next prototype is due for testing?
> 
> @Deino



To admit I don't know but from a few rumours there are hints that 02 is already under construction and could be expected between mid to late 2015.


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> To admit I don't know but from a few rumours there are hints that 02 is already under construction and could be expected between mid to late 2015.



Hmm, interesting; where did you hear about the mid-to-late year rumor?


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## monitor

*China's J-31 stealth fighter may have VTOL capability: expert*

Staff Reporter

2015-04-12

12:31 (GMT+8)






A J-31 fighter prepares to land. (Internet photo)

In building up its military might in the South China Sea, China is likely to re-design its second fifth-generation stealth fighter, the J-31, with vertical takeoff and landing capabilities, according to Vasily Kashin, a Russian military expert cited in the Moscow-based Sputnik News.

China is constructing its first amphibious assault ship to prepare the People's Liberation Army Navy for possible conflict in the disputed regions of the South China Sea. Once construction of the vessel is completed, only fighters with vertical takeoff and landing gear will be able to deploy aboard the amphibious assault ship's flight deck. In this way, the PLA Navy will have a light aircraft carrier suitable for combat around the disputed Spratly islands.

The J-31 shares a similar fuselage to the F-35 fighter designed by Lockheed Martin, according to the report. Since the United States has developed a F-35B fighter with vertical takeoff and landing gear, China will apply the same strategy to the J-31.

Russia is currently one of the only two nations in the world with experience in designing carrier-based fighters capable of vertical takeoff and landing. China should exploit this connection to strengthen its cooperation with Russia, Kashin said.


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## Baloch Pakistani

Beast said:


> But there shall also be a time limit. If is become operation too late and next generation fighter comes out. There is no point inducting it.
> 
> The best way for this project to hasten is to have foreign investment of it. I hope the Indonesian abandon their KFX project and instead pump fund into this J-31 or if pakistan still have extra fund. It will do them good to invest this project just like JF-17.



When will PL-12D be ready for j31, bcz that will give it a very long range to kill enemy aircraft. This jet will have to go against Meteor AAM, so PL-12D is a must.


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## Deino

monitor said:


> *China's J-31 stealth fighter may have VTOL capability: expert*
> 
> Staff Reporter
> 
> 2015-04-12
> 
> 12:31 (GMT+8)
> ...
> 
> Russia is currently one of the only two nations in the world with experience in designing carrier-based fighters capable of vertical takeoff and landing. China should exploit this connection to strengthen its cooperation with Russia, Kashin said.




To admit, first of all give a source please and even more it sounds very much like the typical "WantChinaTimes"-BS  .... so I would say forget it !

PS-Edit: I was indeed correct !  
China's J-31 stealth fighter may have VTOL capability: expert｜WantChinaTimes.com

Deino


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## monitor

Deino said:


> To admit, first of all give a source please and even more it sounds very much like the typical "WantChinaTimes"-BS  .... so I would say forget it !
> 
> PS-Edit: I was indeed correct !
> China's J-31 stealth fighter may have VTOL capability: expert｜WantChinaTimes.com
> 
> Deino


You correctly predicted it was from famous? wantchina.com


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## cirr



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## Akasa

cirr said:


>



Actually, are there any details regarding the expected appearance of the improved variant?


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## monitor

*Saturday, April 11, 2015*




Image 1: J-31 demonstrator at Zhuhai 
Key conclusions from Threat Analysis of Foreign Stealth Fighters: Shenyang J-31 Part I

Current J-31 demonstrator is unlikely to enter either PLAAF or PLANAF service in the short term, Shenyang has been described the FC-31 as an export only aircraft 
Possible reasons include: insufficient performance, increasingly capable 4.5 generation fighter fleet serving as the low end in the high low mix with the J-20, and risk management in the case of the PLANAF given the development of the J-15 

Relatively stealthy airframe, use of planform alignment and DSI but notably lacks rear stealth 
degree of stealth likely to be inferior to both the F-22 and F-35 given ongoing quality control issues within the Chinese aerospace industry but still sufficient enough to cause serious concern for American 4th generation aircraft and equivalent aircraft 

Part II will discuss the potential export prospects, avionics, and strategic impact of the FC-31.

*Export Prospects*




Image 2: FC-1/JF-17. Image Credit: Alan Warnes
Between 2010 and 2014, Chinese arms exports have surged by 143% and accounted for 5% of the global total in 2014. China's past and ongoing efforts to expand its arms industry provide insight towards which countries may potentially acquire the FC-31:
"A significant percentage (just over 68 percent) of Chinese exports went to three countries: Pakistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar. China also exported major arms to 18 African states. Examples of China’s increasing global presence as an arms supplier in 2010–14 included deals with Venezuela for armoured vehicles and transport and trainer aircraft, with Algeria for three frigates, with Indonesia for the supply of hundreds of anti-ship missiles and with Nigeria for the supply of a number of unmanned combat aerial vehicles." - SPRI, 2015Efforts by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) in cooperation with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) to export the FC-1/JF-17 indicate China is targeting countries which have traditionally imported Russian combat aircraft. CAC has offered the JF-17 to Bulgaria, Myanmar, Nigeria, Indonesia, Egypt, and Argentina (Bokhari & Jennings, 2015). It is important to note that while Shenyang produces the FC-31 rather than Chendgdu, both companies are subsidiaries of the state owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) which is responsible for exporting the products of its subsidiary companies.
The JF-17 is pitched as a low cost alternative to Western and Russian designs in the low-end fighter export market with standard 4th generation capabilities and a unit price of $20-25 million (Panda, 2015). The low unit price and fairly competitive capabilities makes the aircraft a viable option in many of the countries above, particularly in Argentina, Bulgaria, and Nigeria where ongoing financial constraints are expected to heavily influence potential acquisitions (Panda, 2015). However, the only country to take delivery of the JF-17 has been Pakistan despite the numerous attempts to export the aircraft in the aforementioned countries.
In terms of how efforts to export the JF-17 relate to the FC-31, it is probable the FC-31 will be offered to countries within a similar profile to those above. Countries which are not aligned with the West or the United States from a security perspective, have traditionally bought Russian or French supplied combat aircraft, and are likely to place a premium on affordability. While China is expected to find an export customer for the JF-17 in the near term, China's relative inexperience in providing logistics and training support to foreign customers is likely to hamper any bids. For example, it took several years for Saab with its low cost JAS 39 (from Sweden) to prove itself as a competitive supplier of combat aircraft on par with more established companies in the field like Lockheed Martin and Sukhoi.
Another potential issue with future attempts to export the FC-31 results from the requirements of expected export customers. While the FC-31 is expected to be much more affordable than the F-35, it will be undoubtedly more expensive than the current JF-17 unit price of $20-25 million. The greatest strength of the JF-17 is its low unit and operating costs relative to Western and Russian equivalents. A few of China's potential export customers might be willing to reduce the number of aircraft required in order to obtain higher quality aircraft but the strategic needs of many of these countries is insufficient to justify a high-end low observable fighter. For example, Nigeria is unlikely to value low observability when its primary concern is acquiring platforms capable of conducting affordable air to ground missions against Boko Haram. As defense aviation expert Richard Aboulafia has argued, "The worst enemy of the best is the good enough" in the fighter export market. However, if troubles with Russia's T-50 continue, China could find an opportunity to further assert itself among traditional Russian customers with greater requirements than the JF-17 offers. 




Image 3: T-50 demonstrator
Russia’s deputy defense minister for armaments, Yuri Borisov, recently announced Russia intends to cut its original order for 52 T-50s delivered by 2020 to just 12 aircraft in the same time frame. While the Defense Ministry's official justification for the reduced order is Russia's ongoing recession, technical difficulties with the aircraft's development undoubtedly contributed to the cut. Sukhoi has been fairly opaque with respect to providing information about the progress of the T-50's development but Indian sources have provided a wealth of information regarding the ongoing difficulties in the T-50's design process; India has spent $5.5 billion financing the development of the T-50 with the intent of acquiring 130-145 of the FGFA variant of the aircraft for a total cost of $25 billion (Raghuvanshi, 2015). 
"The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive...The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service." - Ajai Shukla, 2015While it is difficult to confirm the full extent of the T-50s development issues, Russia's ongoing financial problems combined with India's increasing unease with the program may facilitate Chinese efforts to market the FC-31 in countries which have already expressed interest in the T-50 such as Iran. Despite the ongoing sanctions against Iran, China has already provided equipment and expertise to upgrade Iran's existing fleet of F-4 Phantom aircraft.

*Avionics*



Image 4: FC-31 HMD exhibit at Zhuhai airshow
Reliable information on the FC-31's avionics is sparse. The model featured at Zhuhai, not the operational flight demonstrator, featured a similar electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) system to the latest J-20 prototypes. Furthermore, it is expected the aircraft will feature an actively scanned electronic array (AESA) radar (Minnick, 2014).China has made significant advances in AESA technology over the last decade. China's first generation AESAs were developed for the J-10B and J-16 with the intent of producing a second generation AESA for the J-20 (Feng 2014).
Two major factors are likely to determine the FC-31's T/R module count: the willingness of China to export sensitive technology and domestic technical/manufacturing capabilities. Chengdu's willingness to offer the AESA equipped J-10B to Argentina demonstrates that China is willing to export its first generation AESA technology (Jennings, 2015). In contrast, China enacted an export ban policy with respect to the J-20 in December of 2014. While the sensitive technologies incorporated into the J-20 are more extensive than a second generation AESA, the export ban suggests AVIC will be unwilling to export similarly capable AESA systems in both the FC-1/JF-17 Block III and FC-31.
The article, _The Technological Maturity of Chinese AESA Technology & Strategic Impacts_, discusses the technical capabilities of the Chinese aerospace industry in great detail. For the purposes of this article, the analysis of the J-10B's first generation radar is largely applicable towards the FC-31. Both airframes feature smaller nose cones than the PLAAF's flanker derivatives leading towards a smaller possible T/R module figure. Furthermore, both are likely to contain 1st generation packing and cooling technology given China's willingness to export both aircraft but not the J-20. Thus, the author estimates a T/R module figure for the FC-31 to be similar to the J-10B's which is likely no greater than 1,000 T/R modules.
*Strategic Impacts*

*

*
*Image 5: J-31 demonstrator accompanied by a PLAAF J-11 
The strategic impact of the FC-31 is dependent upon the relative capabilities of the aircraft in conjunction with the countries which will acquire the aircraft. In terms of capabilities, there are significant reasons to be skeptical of claims that the FC-31 will out preform the F-35 given ongoing quality control issues, engine reliability concerns, and the relative inexperience of the Chinese aerospace industry in the manufacturing of fifth generation avionics as discussed in Part I. However, the J-31/FC-31 does not have to be equivalent to the F-35 to pose a significant threat - especially in large numbers. Fourth generation American fighters such as the F-16C/D which will not be upgraded with modern AESAs will be outclassed. 
Countries which are likely to express interest in the FC-31 over the next decade in Africa and Latin America are inherently predisposed to acquire limited fleet sizes due to the FC-31's niche in the global fighter market. Countries with access to greater financial resources or have the required geopolitical ties are more likely to pursue either the F-35 or the T-50. Few countries in Latin America and Africa which China is likely to supply arms are openly opposed to the United States and its allies. The strategic impact of the FC-31 would be greatest in Asia for the United States and its allies if the FC-31 was fielded by either Iran or Pakistan; AVIC has expressed interest in exporting the FC-31 to both countries (Minnick, 2014).*
*The Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) is largely composed of third generation US aircraft supplied during the 1970s before the Islamic Revolution in 1979 as well as remnants of Saddam's air force which fled during the Persian Gulf War. The IRIAF is generally regarded to be an obsolete fighting force and the ongoing lack of spare parts has reduced the readiness of foreign supplied aircraft (Jennings, 2015). The addition of a modern fighter aircraft to the IRIAF would greatly increase the difficulty of Gulf allies in achieving air superiority absent of US intervention. All Gulf allies in the region field fourth generation aircraft such as the F-15S, F-16C/D Block 50/52+, F/A-18C, and Eurofighter Typhoon, *

*

*
*Image 6: Dassault Rafale. France and India recently singed a deal for 36 Rafales, ending three years of stalled negotiations. However, many IAF officials do not believe they will be able to sustain the acquisition of both the FGFA and Rafale. 
Pakistan has expressed interest in purchasing between 30 to 40 FC-31s as reported by IHS Janes in November of 2014. In a similar manner as Iran, the addition of the FC-31 would greatly augment the PAF's existing fighter force. The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) has been increasingly unable to match the recent acquisition and modernization efforts of the Indian air force. However, the limited number discussed is unlikely to dramatically change the outcome of a conventional conflict. In terms of equipment, the Indian Air Force will maintain a quantitative and numerical advantage under the assumption that it improves thereadiness of its Su-30 MKI force which is currently 56% due to faulty Russian supplied engines. 
In terms of the deployment of the FC-31 having an impact on the United States, Pakistan is not an overt adversary despite efforts of the ISI to fund select elements of the Taliban in the tribal regions. Furthermore, India is not strictly an ally of the United States given the stringent desire of New Delhi to maintain its non-aligned status. The relative military balance of power between Pakistan and India is of interest to the United States given its security and implications on regional stability. *
*In conclusion, AVIC will likely target countries in Latin America, Africa, and Asia which have traditionally bought Russian or French supplied combat aircraft, do not have a security relationship with the West or United States, and are likely to place a premium on affordability. The FC-31 will likely occupy a specific niche in the future fighter market among countries which are unable to aquire either the T-50 or F-35 but require greater capabilities than more affordable fourth generation alternatives like the JF-17 and JAS 39. The strategic impact of the FC-31 will be minimally significant in Latin America and Africa for the United States but may cause concern in Asia if both Pakistan and Iran acquire the aircraft. *
*
Sources*

Chinese Avionics Advances Ripple Throughout Asia, Usman Ansari, 2011Chinese Avionics Advances Ripple Throughout Asia | Defense News | defensenews.com
Argentina and China agree fighter aircraft working group, Gareth Jennings, 2015Argentina and China agree fighter aircraft working group - IHS Jane's 360
Images show JF-17 flying with CM-400AKG hypersonic ASM, Richard D Fisher, 2014Images show JF-17 flying with CM-400AKG hypersonic ASM - IHS Jane's 360
Bulgaria to be offered JF-17 fighter by Pakistan, Gareth Jennings, 2015Bulgaria to be offered JF-17 fighter by Pakistan - IHS Jane's 360
IDEAS 2014: Nigeria 'close to signing up' for JF-17, Farhan Bokhari, 2014.IDEAS 2014: Nigeria 'close to signing up' for JF-17 - IHS Jane's 360
Block 2 JF-17 makes first flight ahead of Block 3 improvements, Alan Warnes, 2015Block 2 JF-17 makes first flight ahead of Block 3 improvements - IHS Jane's 360
JF-17 Presses On After News of Egypt's Plans, Usman Ansari, 2015JF-17 Presses On After News of Egypt's Plans
Argentina, China Could Jointly Develop Fighters, Wendell Minnick, 2015Argentina, China Could Jointly Develop Fighters
AIRSHOW CHINA: CATIC hunts elusive JF-17 export deal, Greg Waldron, 2014AIRSHOW CHINA: CATIC hunts elusive JF-17 export deal - 11/12/2014 - Flight Global
Pakistan Begins Producing Block-II JF-17 Aircraft, Ankit Panda, 2013Pakistan Begins Producing Block-II JF-17 Aircraft | The Diplomat
AIRSHOW CHINA: Pakistan outlines JF-17 upgrade activity, Greg Waldron, 2014AIRSHOW CHINA: Pakistan outlines JF-17 upgrade activity - 11/12/2014 - Flight Global
China and Pakistan Push Chengdu JF-17 Fighter for Export, Chris Pocock, 2010China and Pakistan Push Chengdu JF-17 Fighter for Export | Defense: Aviation International News
China's J-10 advocated as Argentine 'Typhoon beater', Andrew Tate, 2015China's J-10 advocated as Argentine 'Typhoon beater' - IHS Jane's 360
Russia and India agree preliminary design for FGFA fighter, Gareth Jennings, 2015Russia and India agree preliminary design for FGFA fighter - IHS Jane's 360
Defence ministry ignores Russia's requests to discuss fighter project, Ajai Shukla, 2015Defence ministry ignores Russia's requests to discuss fighter project | Business Standard News
Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF, Ajai Shukla, 2014 Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard News
India, Russia Discuss FGFA, Helo Co-Production, Vivek Raghuvanshi, 2015India, Russia Discuss FGFA, Helo Co-Production 
With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement, Wendell Minnick, 2014With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement | Defense News | defensenews.com 
Trends in international arms transfers, 2014, Pieter D. Wezeman and Siemon T. Wezeman, 2015 http://books.sipri.org/files/FS/SIPRIFS1503.pdf
Analysis: India faces crunch decision over Rafale, PAK-FA, Reuben F Johnson, 2015Analysis: India faces crunch decision over Rafale, PAK-FA - IHS Jane's 360
Beijing Banned Export of Its New Stealth Fighter, War is Boring, 2014 Beijing Banned Export of Its New Stealth Fighter — War Is Boring — Medium
Analysis - Iranian fighter programmes: Bona fide or bluff?, Gareth Jennings, 2015Analysis - Iranian fighter programmes: Bona fide or bluff? - IHS Jane's 360
Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s', Farhan Bokhari, 2014Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360

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## monitor

*Saturday, April 11, 2015*




Image 1: J-31 demonstrator at Zhuhai 
Key conclusions from Threat Analysis of Foreign Stealth Fighters: Shenyang J-31 Part I

Current J-31 demonstrator is unlikely to enter either PLAAF or PLANAF service in the short term, Shenyang has been described the FC-31 as an export only aircraft 
Possible reasons include: insufficient performance, increasingly capable 4.5 generation fighter fleet serving as the low end in the high low mix with the J-20, and risk management in the case of the PLANAF given the development of the J-15 

Relatively stealthy airframe, use of planform alignment and DSI but notably lacks rear stealth 
degree of stealth likely to be inferior to both the F-22 and F-35 given ongoing quality control issues within the Chinese aerospace industry but still sufficient enough to cause serious concern for American 4th generation aircraft and equivalent aircraft 

Part II will discuss the potential export prospects, avionics, and strategic impact of the FC-31.

*Export Prospects*




Image 2: FC-1/JF-17. Image Credit: Alan Warnes
Between 2010 and 2014, Chinese arms exports have surged by 143% and accounted for 5% of the global total in 2014. China's past and ongoing efforts to expand its arms industry provide insight towards which countries may potentially acquire the FC-31:
"A significant percentage (just over 68 percent) of Chinese exports went to three countries: Pakistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar. China also exported major arms to 18 African states. Examples of China’s increasing global presence as an arms supplier in 2010–14 included deals with Venezuela for armoured vehicles and transport and trainer aircraft, with Algeria for three frigates, with Indonesia for the supply of hundreds of anti-ship missiles and with Nigeria for the supply of a number of unmanned combat aerial vehicles." - SPRI, 2015Efforts by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) in cooperation with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) to export the FC-1/JF-17 indicate China is targeting countries which have traditionally imported Russian combat aircraft. CAC has offered the JF-17 to Bulgaria, Myanmar, Nigeria, Indonesia, Egypt, and Argentina (Bokhari & Jennings, 2015). It is important to note that while Shenyang produces the FC-31 rather than Chendgdu, both companies are subsidiaries of the state owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) which is responsible for exporting the products of its subsidiary companies.
The JF-17 is pitched as a low cost alternative to Western and Russian designs in the low-end fighter export market with standard 4th generation capabilities and a unit price of $20-25 million (Panda, 2015). The low unit price and fairly competitive capabilities makes the aircraft a viable option in many of the countries above, particularly in Argentina, Bulgaria, and Nigeria where ongoing financial constraints are expected to heavily influence potential acquisitions (Panda, 2015). However, the only country to take delivery of the JF-17 has been Pakistan despite the numerous attempts to export the aircraft in the aforementioned countries.
In terms of how efforts to export the JF-17 relate to the FC-31, it is probable the FC-31 will be offered to countries within a similar profile to those above. Countries which are not aligned with the West or the United States from a security perspective, have traditionally bought Russian or French supplied combat aircraft, and are likely to place a premium on affordability. While China is expected to find an export customer for the JF-17 in the near term, China's relative inexperience in providing logistics and training support to foreign customers is likely to hamper any bids. For example, it took several years for Saab with its low cost JAS 39 (from Sweden) to prove itself as a competitive supplier of combat aircraft on par with more established companies in the field like Lockheed Martin and Sukhoi.
Another potential issue with future attempts to export the FC-31 results from the requirements of expected export customers. While the FC-31 is expected to be much more affordable than the F-35, it will be undoubtedly more expensive than the current JF-17 unit price of $20-25 million. The greatest strength of the JF-17 is its low unit and operating costs relative to Western and Russian equivalents. A few of China's potential export customers might be willing to reduce the number of aircraft required in order to obtain higher quality aircraft but the strategic needs of many of these countries is insufficient to justify a high-end low observable fighter. For example, Nigeria is unlikely to value low observability when its primary concern is acquiring platforms capable of conducting affordable air to ground missions against Boko Haram. As defense aviation expert Richard Aboulafia has argued, "The worst enemy of the best is the good enough" in the fighter export market. However, if troubles with Russia's T-50 continue, China could find an opportunity to further assert itself among traditional Russian customers with greater requirements than the JF-17 offers. 




Image 3: T-50 demonstrator
Russia’s deputy defense minister for armaments, Yuri Borisov, recently announced Russia intends to cut its original order for 52 T-50s delivered by 2020 to just 12 aircraft in the same time frame. While the Defense Ministry's official justification for the reduced order is Russia's ongoing recession, technical difficulties with the aircraft's development undoubtedly contributed to the cut. Sukhoi has been fairly opaque with respect to providing information about the progress of the T-50's development but Indian sources have provided a wealth of information regarding the ongoing difficulties in the T-50's design process; India has spent $5.5 billion financing the development of the T-50 with the intent of acquiring 130-145 of the FGFA variant of the aircraft for a total cost of $25 billion (Raghuvanshi, 2015). 
"The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive...The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service." - Ajai Shukla, 2015While it is difficult to confirm the full extent of the T-50s development issues, Russia's ongoing financial problems combined with India's increasing unease with the program may facilitate Chinese efforts to market the FC-31 in countries which have already expressed interest in the T-50 such as Iran. Despite the ongoing sanctions against Iran, China has already provided equipment and expertise to upgrade Iran's existing fleet of F-4 Phantom aircraft.

*Avionics*



Image 4: FC-31 HMD exhibit at Zhuhai airshow
Reliable information on the FC-31's avionics is sparse. The model featured at Zhuhai, not the operational flight demonstrator, featured a similar electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) system to the latest J-20 prototypes. Furthermore, it is expected the aircraft will feature an actively scanned electronic array (AESA) radar (Minnick, 2014).China has made significant advances in AESA technology over the last decade. China's first generation AESAs were developed for the J-10B and J-16 with the intent of producing a second generation AESA for the J-20 (Feng 2014).
Two major factors are likely to determine the FC-31's T/R module count: the willingness of China to export sensitive technology and domestic technical/manufacturing capabilities. Chengdu's willingness to offer the AESA equipped J-10B to Argentina demonstrates that China is willing to export its first generation AESA technology (Jennings, 2015). In contrast, China enacted an export ban policy with respect to the J-20 in December of 2014. While the sensitive technologies incorporated into the J-20 are more extensive than a second generation AESA, the export ban suggests AVIC will be unwilling to export similarly capable AESA systems in both the FC-1/JF-17 Block III and FC-31.
The article, _The Technological Maturity of Chinese AESA Technology & Strategic Impacts_, discusses the technical capabilities of the Chinese aerospace industry in great detail. For the purposes of this article, the analysis of the J-10B's first generation radar is largely applicable towards the FC-31. Both airframes feature smaller nose cones than the PLAAF's flanker derivatives leading towards a smaller possible T/R module figure. Furthermore, both are likely to contain 1st generation packing and cooling technology given China's willingness to export both aircraft but not the J-20. Thus, the author estimates a T/R module figure for the FC-31 to be similar to the J-10B's which is likely no greater than 1,000 T/R modules.
*Strategic Impacts*

*

*
*Image 5: J-31 demonstrator accompanied by a PLAAF J-11 
The strategic impact of the FC-31 is dependent upon the relative capabilities of the aircraft in conjunction with the countries which will acquire the aircraft. In terms of capabilities, there are significant reasons to be skeptical of claims that the FC-31 will out preform the F-35 given ongoing quality control issues, engine reliability concerns, and the relative inexperience of the Chinese aerospace industry in the manufacturing of fifth generation avionics as discussed in Part I. However, the J-31/FC-31 does not have to be equivalent to the F-35 to pose a significant threat - especially in large numbers. Fourth generation American fighters such as the F-16C/D which will not be upgraded with modern AESAs will be outclassed. 
Countries which are likely to express interest in the FC-31 over the next decade in Africa and Latin America are inherently predisposed to acquire limited fleet sizes due to the FC-31's niche in the global fighter market. Countries with access to greater financial resources or have the required geopolitical ties are more likely to pursue either the F-35 or the T-50. Few countries in Latin America and Africa which China is likely to supply arms are openly opposed to the United States and its allies. The strategic impact of the FC-31 would be greatest in Asia for the United States and its allies if the FC-31 was fielded by either Iran or Pakistan; AVIC has expressed interest in exporting the FC-31 to both countries (Minnick, 2014).*
*The Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) is largely composed of third generation US aircraft supplied during the 1970s before the Islamic Revolution in 1979 as well as remnants of Saddam's air force which fled during the Persian Gulf War. The IRIAF is generally regarded to be an obsolete fighting force and the ongoing lack of spare parts has reduced the readiness of foreign supplied aircraft (Jennings, 2015). The addition of a modern fighter aircraft to the IRIAF would greatly increase the difficulty of Gulf allies in achieving air superiority absent of US intervention. All Gulf allies in the region field fourth generation aircraft such as the F-15S, F-16C/D Block 50/52+, F/A-18C, and Eurofighter Typhoon, *

*

*
*Image 6: Dassault Rafale. France and India recently singed a deal for 36 Rafales, ending three years of stalled negotiations. However, many IAF officials do not believe they will be able to sustain the acquisition of both the FGFA and Rafale. 
Pakistan has expressed interest in purchasing between 30 to 40 FC-31s as reported by IHS Janes in November of 2014. In a similar manner as Iran, the addition of the FC-31 would greatly augment the PAF's existing fighter force. The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) has been increasingly unable to match the recent acquisition and modernization efforts of the Indian air force. However, the limited number discussed is unlikely to dramatically change the outcome of a conventional conflict. In terms of equipment, the Indian Air Force will maintain a quantitative and numerical advantage under the assumption that it improves thereadiness of its Su-30 MKI force which is currently 56% due to faulty Russian supplied engines. 
In terms of the deployment of the FC-31 having an impact on the United States, Pakistan is not an overt adversary despite efforts of the ISI to fund select elements of the Taliban in the tribal regions. Furthermore, India is not strictly an ally of the United States given the stringent desire of New Delhi to maintain its non-aligned status. The relative military balance of power between Pakistan and India is of interest to the United States given its security and implications on regional stability. *
*In conclusion, AVIC will likely target countries in Latin America, Africa, and Asia which have traditionally bought Russian or French supplied combat aircraft, do not have a security relationship with the West or United States, and are likely to place a premium on affordability. The FC-31 will likely occupy a specific niche in the future fighter market among countries which are unable to aquire either the T-50 or F-35 but require greater capabilities than more affordable fourth generation alternatives like the JF-17 and JAS 39. The strategic impact of the FC-31 will be minimally significant in Latin America and Africa for the United States but may cause concern in Asia if both Pakistan and Iran acquire the aircraft. *
*
Sources*

Chinese Avionics Advances Ripple Throughout Asia, Usman Ansari, 2011Chinese Avionics Advances Ripple Throughout Asia | Defense News | defensenews.com
Argentina and China agree fighter aircraft working group, Gareth Jennings, 2015Argentina and China agree fighter aircraft working group - IHS Jane's 360
Images show JF-17 flying with CM-400AKG hypersonic ASM, Richard D Fisher, 2014Images show JF-17 flying with CM-400AKG hypersonic ASM - IHS Jane's 360
Bulgaria to be offered JF-17 fighter by Pakistan, Gareth Jennings, 2015Bulgaria to be offered JF-17 fighter by Pakistan - IHS Jane's 360
IDEAS 2014: Nigeria 'close to signing up' for JF-17, Farhan Bokhari, 2014.IDEAS 2014: Nigeria 'close to signing up' for JF-17 - IHS Jane's 360
Block 2 JF-17 makes first flight ahead of Block 3 improvements, Alan Warnes, 2015Block 2 JF-17 makes first flight ahead of Block 3 improvements - IHS Jane's 360
JF-17 Presses On After News of Egypt's Plans, Usman Ansari, 2015JF-17 Presses On After News of Egypt's Plans
Argentina, China Could Jointly Develop Fighters, Wendell Minnick, 2015Argentina, China Could Jointly Develop Fighters
AIRSHOW CHINA: CATIC hunts elusive JF-17 export deal, Greg Waldron, 2014AIRSHOW CHINA: CATIC hunts elusive JF-17 export deal - 11/12/2014 - Flight Global
Pakistan Begins Producing Block-II JF-17 Aircraft, Ankit Panda, 2013Pakistan Begins Producing Block-II JF-17 Aircraft | The Diplomat
AIRSHOW CHINA: Pakistan outlines JF-17 upgrade activity, Greg Waldron, 2014AIRSHOW CHINA: Pakistan outlines JF-17 upgrade activity - 11/12/2014 - Flight Global
China and Pakistan Push Chengdu JF-17 Fighter for Export, Chris Pocock, 2010China and Pakistan Push Chengdu JF-17 Fighter for Export | Defense: Aviation International News
China's J-10 advocated as Argentine 'Typhoon beater', Andrew Tate, 2015China's J-10 advocated as Argentine 'Typhoon beater' - IHS Jane's 360
Russia and India agree preliminary design for FGFA fighter, Gareth Jennings, 2015Russia and India agree preliminary design for FGFA fighter - IHS Jane's 360
Defence ministry ignores Russia's requests to discuss fighter project, Ajai Shukla, 2015Defence ministry ignores Russia's requests to discuss fighter project | Business Standard News
Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF, Ajai Shukla, 2014 Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard News
India, Russia Discuss FGFA, Helo Co-Production, Vivek Raghuvanshi, 2015India, Russia Discuss FGFA, Helo Co-Production 
With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement, Wendell Minnick, 2014With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement | Defense News | defensenews.com 
Trends in international arms transfers, 2014, Pieter D. Wezeman and Siemon T. Wezeman, 2015 http://books.sipri.org/files/FS/SIPRIFS1503.pdf
Analysis: India faces crunch decision over Rafale, PAK-FA, Reuben F Johnson, 2015Analysis: India faces crunch decision over Rafale, PAK-FA - IHS Jane's 360
Beijing Banned Export of Its New Stealth Fighter, War is Boring, 2014 Beijing Banned Export of Its New Stealth Fighter — War Is Boring — Medium
Analysis - Iranian fighter programmes: Bona fide or bluff?, Gareth Jennings, 2015Analysis - Iranian fighter programmes: Bona fide or bluff? - IHS Jane's 360
Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s', Farhan Bokhari, 2014Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360

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## Indus Falcon

*J-31 stealth fighter doesn't need VTOL capability: expert*

Staff Reporter
2015-04-26
09:23 (GMT+8)
Chinese military expert Song Xinzhi said in an interview with Beijing Television on April 21 that comments made by Russian military expert Vasily Kashin about how the PLA Navy should develop its second fifth-generation stealth fighter, the J-31, with vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) capability was nothing more than a trap.

Kashin had encouraged China to redesign its J-31 with VTOL capability to operate the fighter from the PLA Navy's new amphibious assault ships in an article written earlier for Moscow's Sputnik News. He said China would be able to better project power into the Western Pacific and South China Sea through such modifications. Since the US, UK and Russia have all developed similar carrier-based fighters before, Kashin believed that China could do it as well.

Song, however, felt that too much money and resources would be required for the PLA Navy to develop a stealth fighter with VTOL capability. Song added that even Lockheed Martin had been unable to achieve an F-35B fighter with VTOL capability despite 20 years of trying. Since the F-35B is a lot heavier than the AV-8 Harrier, more power is required for the aircraft to take off or land, making the heat too strong for the flight deck to cope with. In addition, Song said that VTOL aircraft consume too much fuel and cannot conduct long-range missions. In Song's opinion, it would not be worth it.

J-31 stealth fighter doesn't need VTOL capability: expert｜WantChinaTimes.com


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## Oracle

No updates on J31?


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## Superboy

Oracle said:


> No updates on J31?




I think it's cancelled or a tech demonstrator.


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## Oracle

Superboy said:


> I think it's cancelled or a tech demonstrator.


nooooooooooooooooooo


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## Akasa

Oracle said:


> nooooooooooooooooooo



Word is that the improved prototype is going to make its first flight in 2015.


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## Akasa

Update: Pakistan's Air Force Chief has confirmed in a presentation that the J-31 will be Pakistan's next-generation fighter plane.

By the way, @cirr, any idea when the improved FC-31 will make its first flight?

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## HRK

SinoSoldier said:


> Update: Pakistan's Air Force Chief has confirmed in a presentation that the J-31 will be Pakistan's next-generation fighter plane.
> 
> By the way, @cirr, any idea when the improved FC-31 will make its first flight?



any source ..... ??? its a great news '*if*' true

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## Akasa

HRK said:


> any source ..... ??? its a great news '*if*' true



There's a multi-page thread in the PAF section.

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## Akasa

EDIT: disregard the previous post.

It seems that the PAF Chief was simply offered a presentation on the J-31; any prospects of a PAF purchase is still up in the air.

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## Akasa

It seems that SAC has offered a model to the PAF Chief.

A few updates on the capabilities:
- it is network-centric-capable and can direct groups of UAVs, which will have surveillance, battle assessment, and air/ground attack capability
- it will have a flight computer that will fly the plane while the pilot concentrates on combat

But, @cirr , when will the prototype roll out?

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## krash

SinoSoldier said:


> Actually, are there any details regarding the expected appearance of the improved variant?


AVIC did display a large scale model of the expected FC-31 at the last Zhuhai Airshow (the pics were posted here). I believe this is what you are looking for,






















The clipped wings and tail is very F-22-ish, makes it look prettier.


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## siegecrossbow

krash said:


> AVIC did display a large scale model of the expected FC-31 at the last Zhuhai Airshow (the pics were posted here). I believe this is what you are looking for,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The clipped wings and tail is very F-22-ish, makes it look prettier.



I thought the modified tail made it more F-35ish.


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## krash

siegecrossbow said:


> I thought the modified tail made it more F-35ish.



The slanted vertical stabilizers are F-35ish but with clipped corners while the current vertical stabilizers are F-22ish true. But the clipped corners of the wings (giving them 4 edges each) and horizontal stabilizers (giving them 5 edges each) are F-22ish, while the F-35 has sharp corners (3 edges and 4 edges on each wing and horizontal stabilizer, respectively). Interestingly neither of the two has clipped vertical stabilizers, unlike the FC-31. 

Similar clipped corners in red and dissimilar sharp edges in green,

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## mil-avia

*Japanese publication cover showing J-31 fighter :*





*841 × 1200 pixels*
 

Related link(s).

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## Deino

mil-avia said:


> *Japanese publication cover showing J-31 fighter :*
> 
> View attachment 237628
> 
> *841 × 1200 pixels*
> 
> 
> Related link(s).



Interesting !!!

By the way are there any new images of Japan's current F-3 configurations 25DMU, since it seems as if there is a report on that type also in this issue?

Deino


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## j20blackdragon

Beijing tech show highlights advances in Chinese fighter sensors

Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington, DC - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
16 July 2015






_*A-Star's EOTS-86 appears to be similar to the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) that equips the Lockheed Martin F-35. (Via Top81 web page)*_

China's Jiangsu A-Star Aviation Industries Company (A-Star) used the first Beijing exhibition promoting "civil-military integration" to reveal new combat aircraft electro-optical systems, some of which may be slated for the country's fifth-generation fighters.

A-Star's booth featured images of a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation J-31 fifth-generation export fighter to highlight two electro-optical systems, although it is not clear that A-Star's systems will equip future developments of this fighter, revealed as the FC-31 at the November 2014 Zhuhai Air Show.






*A-Star's EORD-31 appears to be a conventional infrared search and tracking (IRST) system but with a faceted sensor dome; and the claimed ability to detect a F-22. (Via Top81 web page)*

The EOTS-89 resembles the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) of the Lockheed Martin F-35, which combines Forward Looking Infrared and Infrared Search and Track (IRST) capabilities.

Beijing tech show highlights advances in Chinese fighter sensors - IHS Jane's 360

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## Martian2

*Here's a point-by-point comparison of frontal RCS for J-31 vs. F-22*

Transparent RAM-coated cockpit canopy: J-31 and F-22. Tie.
Continuous curvature upper radome. J-31 and F-22. Tie.
Faceted lower radome. J-31 and F-22. Tie.
DSI (diverterless supersonic inlet). J-31 only. This means J-31 is stealthier.
J-31 is physically smaller. This means J-31 is stealthier. Less area to reflect radar waves.

In evaluating the frontal RCS of the J-31 and F-22 in X-band, the J-31 is stealthier than the F-22 in two categories and ties in three categories. The J-31 has DSI that blocks radar waves from entering the air intakes and reflecting. Thus, the frontal RCS of the J-31 must be marble-sized or smaller.

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## cirr

FC-31 first seen under assembly？

Screen grabs of CCTV programme about AVIC aired last night

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> FC-31 first seen under assembly？
> 
> Screen grabs of CCTV programme about AVIC aired last night



By "FC-31", are you referring to the very first prototype or the improved variant (with the medium thrust engines)?

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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> By "FC-31", are you referring to the very first prototype or the improved variant (with the medium thrust engines)?



v2.0

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## Deino

cirr said:


> v2.0



Hmmm  ... To admit - and especially since I do not want to destroy Your high hopes - but due to this china above the emblem I think it's the original prototype.

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Hmmm  ... To admit - and especially since I do not want to destroy Your high hopes - but due to this china above the emblem I think it's the original prototype.
> 
> View attachment 252148



The 1st pic is indeed the old prototype，as was made evidently clear in the TV programme。

The rest of the screen grabs are NOT（for the camera was led to a different spot in the factory）。

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## Deino

Thanks again !


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## RealNapster

BTw what's the Unit price (+-) of an FC-31 ??


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## cirr

On show again？

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## mzeeshanfahd

come on how long are you going to unrap the beauty ...... do it already .... is it v2 ...


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## Deino

cirr said:


> On show again？



Ohhh ... no images visible ! All i get is "500 Internal Server error" !

Could You please upload them here ??

Deino


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Ohhh ... no images visible ! All i get is "500 Internal Server error" !
> 
> Could You please upload them here ??
> 
> Deino



The website from which the images were taken is currently down。


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## Deino

cirr said:


> The website from which the images were taken is currently down。




Yes, I noticed that the fyjs-forum / Air Force section (http://www.fyjs.cn/forum.php?mod=forumdisplay&fid=27) is down.

And to admit that's one of the reason's I don't like hot-linking images ... I usually save them and upload them here if I want to post them; a bit more work, but if the original link is down, they are still visible.

Deino


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## Sasquatch

@cirr when will we see the 2.0 of the 21/31, possibly before the end of the year ?


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## Pindi Boy

Martian2 said:


> *Here's a point-by-point comparison of frontal RCS for J-31 vs. F-22*
> 
> Transparent RAM-coated cockpit canopy: J-31 and F-22. Tie.
> Continuous curvature upper radome. J-31 and F-22. Tie.
> Faceted lower radome. J-31 and F-22. Tie.
> DSI (diverterless supersonic inlet). J-31 only. This means J-31 is stealthier.
> J-31 is physically smaller. This means J-31 is stealthier. Less area to reflect radar waves.
> 
> In evaluating the frontal RCS of the J-31 and F-22 in X-band, the J-31 is stealthier than the F-22 in two categories and ties in three categories. The J-31 has DSI that blocks radar waves from entering the air intakes and reflecting. Thus, the frontal RCS of the J-31 must be marble-sized or smaller.




1. Chengdu J-20 has maxiumum altitude of 65,620 feet. F-22 maxes out at 60,000 feet.
2. Chengdu J-20 has a combat radius of 1,200 miles. F-22 combat radius is only 470 miles.
3. Chengdu J-20 has EOTS (electro-optical targeting system). F-22 has no EOTS.
4. Chengdu J-20 has EODAS (electro-optical distributed aperture system). F-22 has no EODAS.
5. Chengdu J-20 is optimized for both transonic flight and maneuverability. F-22 is optimized only for maneuverability.

Point #5 is a little complicated, so I'll explain it in more detail. The Chengdu J-20 uses a canard-delta wing design to optimize performance in the transonic range of 0.8 to 1.2 Mach. "Leading edge sweep is ~43°, clearly intended for efficient supersonic flight." The Chengdu J-20 has canards, steerable vertical stabilizers, and ventral fins to increase maneuverability.

The F-22 design only maximizes maneuverability by having large trapezoidal wings and 2-D TVC engine nozzles. The friction caused by large wings is a hindrance to efficient transonic flight. The F-22 has a higher and less-efficient leading-edge wing angle of 47.5°.

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## Development C&P

The main parameters：
Length：————————————————16.8m
Wingspan：———————————————11.5m
Height：—————————————————4.8m
Maximum takeoff weight：—————————25000kg
Normal takeoff weight：——————————17500kg
Maximum Mach Number：—————————1.8
Service ceiling：——————————————6km
Maximum G-load：————————————+9/-3 g
Airborne oil combat radius：————————1200km
Take-off run：———————————————400m
Landing run ：———————————————600m
Loaded weight ：——————————————8t
Aircraft life ：——————————————6000-8000/30 fh/y

Source: FC-31 in BeiJing AIR SHOW

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## cirr

Development C&P said:


> The main parameters：
> Length：————————————————16.8m
> Wingspan：———————————————11.5m
> Height：—————————————————4.8m
> Maximum takeoff weight：—————————25000kg
> Normal takeoff weight：——————————17500kg
> Maximum Mach Number：—————————1.8
> Service ceiling：——————————————6km
> Maximum G-load：————————————+9/-3 g
> Airborne oil combat radius：————————1200km
> Take-off run：———————————————400m
> Landing run ：———————————————600m
> Loaded weight ：——————————————8t
> Aircraft life ：——————————————6000-8000/30 fh/y
> 
> Source: FC-31 in BeiJing AIR SHOW



The above are parameters pertaining to FC-31 v1.0

FC-31 v2.0 has better specs。

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> The above are parameters pertaining to FC-31 v1.0
> 
> FC-31 v2.0 has better specs。



The FC-31 V2.0 model shown at the Beijing Expo differs quite significantly from what was displayed at the Zhuhai Airshow, especially in the vertical stabilizers. 

Is there any information regarding the first flight of the FC-31 and when it might happen?


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## cnleio

Development C&P said:


> The main parameters：
> Length：————————————————16.8m
> Wingspan：———————————————11.5m
> Height：—————————————————4.8m
> Maximum takeoff weight：—————————25000kg
> Normal takeoff weight：——————————17500kg
> Maximum Mach Number：—————————1.8
> Service ceiling：——————————————6km
> Maximum G-load：————————————+9/-3 g
> Airborne oil combat radius：————————1200km
> Take-off run：———————————————400m
> Landing run ：———————————————600m
> Loaded weight ：——————————————8t
> Aircraft life ：——————————————6000-8000/30 fh/y
> 
> Source: FC-31 in BeiJing AIR SHOW


If this is real, FC-31 better than F-35A i mean on the parameters
Maximum takeoff weight：—————————25000kg, *GOOD*
Maximum Mach Number：—————————1.8, *NOT GOOD*
Airborne oil combat radius：————————1200km, *GOOD*
Loaded weight ：——————————————8t,* GOOD*

FC-31/J-31 will be a good stealth fighter in next 10 years ... well done, China !

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## mzeeshanfahd

doesn't this one look more close to this fc-31


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## Beast

mzeeshanfahd said:


> doesn't this one look more close to this fc-31



Fake photo

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## cnleio

FC-31/J-31 need West colour scheme as similar as the F-22, make it *COOL* !

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## SOHEIL

cnleio said:


> Maximum Mach Number：—————————1.8, *NOT GOOD*



Maybe in J-31B with new engine !


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## cnleio

SOHEIL said:


> Maybe in J-31B with new engine !


Sure ... but depend on domestic WS-13 jet engine development, current RD-93 engine not perfect.

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## Beast

SOHEIL said:


> Maybe in J-31B with new engine !



That spec is already taken into consideration of WS-13, not RD-93.

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## SOHEIL

Beast said:


> That spec is already taken into consideration of WS-13, not RD-93.



You mean J-31A


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## Akasa

The v2.0 variant made a debut at the Beijing Expo. The prototype is under assembly.


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> The v2.0 variant made a debut at the Beijing Expo. The prototype is under assembly.
> 
> View attachment 257567



“J-31” is clearly marked on the stand in front of the model。

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## SOHEIL




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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> That spec is already taken into consideration of WS-13, not RD-93.



They should have reverse engineered the rd93 and came up with their modified replica by now for the revised j31.


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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> That spec is already taken into consideration of WS-13, not RD-93.





cnleio said:


> If this is real, FC-31 better than F-35A i mean on the parameters
> Maximum takeoff weight：—————————25000kg, *GOOD*
> Maximum Mach Number：—————————1.8, *NOT GOOD*
> Airborne oil combat radius：————————1200km, *GOOD*
> Loaded weight ：——————————————8t,* GOOD*
> 
> FC-31/J-31 will be a good stealth fighter in next 10 years ... well done, China !



How about the progress of WS-13? 
Could FC-31 take off with loaded weight 8t and full fuel tank?


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## S10

BoQ77 said:


> How about the progress of WS-13?
> Could FC-31 take off with loaded weight 8t and full fuel tank?


Yes, but it won't be able to have a very far combat radius in that case. With full weapon load and full fuel, the combat radius is probably less than 500km.


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## BoQ77

S10 said:


> Yes, but it won't be able to have a very far combat radius in that case. With full weapon load and full fuel, the combat radius is probably less than 500km.



so what is the good ?


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## S10

BoQ77 said:


> so what is the good ?


Combat radius is affected by several factors, such as mission payload, fuel level and even altitude. It's not a static number. Typically for air superiority missions, you don't need maximum weapon payload so the combat radius is longer.


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> How about the progress of WS-13?
> Could FC-31 take off with loaded weight 8t and full fuel tank?


Of course FC-31 can, but as @S10 said must less than max combat radius ... < 1200km.
Waiting for next year FC-31 v2.0 out ... might we can hear more WS-13 development now not more news. When China solve domestic WS-13 engine ... FC-31 really can compete with the F-35A in international weapon market.

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> Of course FC-31 can,



So 500 or 1200 of combat radius?
I remember we have no report on 31001 support that ( full loaded, full fuel )?
And it can because you said it can? simple like that?
I doubt about the fact that 31001 could done many things easily.

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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> So 500 or 1200 of combat radius? I remember we have no report on 31001 support that?
> And it can because you said it can? simple like that?
> I doubt about the fact that 31001 could done many things easily.


... more google, dude ! Wiki Mig-29 with RD-33 engine (RD-93 more powerful than RD-33)

Refer to Mig-29, FC-31 with RD-93 can do everything on the list ... and FC-31's parameters r correct & realizable, the design of FC-31 stealth fighter is successful ! just u don't know.


*Mig-29 fighter with RD-33 engines:*






*FC-31 stealth fighter with RD-93 engines:*

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## BoQ77

Mig-29 ? I think it's non-relevant.


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> Mig-29 ? I think it's non-relevant.


RD-93 developed from original RD-33, more powerful ... FC-31 used new produce-tech and more composite materials, the body weight lighter than 30-year old Mig-29. If u r careful, refer to Mig-29's parameters u can find FC-31 with RD-93 is OKay !

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## Beast

cnleio said:


> RD-93 developed from original RD-33, more powerful ... FC-31 used new produce-tech and more composite materials, the body weight lighter than 30-year old Mig-29. If u r careful, refer to Mig-29's parameters u can find FC-31 with RD-93 is OKay !



Not to mention J-31 most body parts uses 3D printing method that further reduces the material weight and strengthen the structure.

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> RD-93 developed from original RD-33, more powerful ... FC-31 used new produce-tech and more composite materials, the body weight lighter than 30-year old Mig-29. If u r careful, refer to Mig-29's parameters u can find FC-31 with RD-93 is OKay !



Like Mach 1.8 ? vs. 2.25 ? I still think that comparison is illogical



cnleio said:


> . and* FC-31's parameters r correct & realizable, the design of FC-31 stealth fighter is successful !*


Does it make sense without proof ?


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> Like Mach 1.8 ? vs. 2.25 ? I still think that comparison is illogical
> Does it make sense without proof ?


Again ... Mr BoQ77 to teach Chinese how to design a stealth fighter.

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## cirr

cnleio said:


> Again ... Mr BoQ77 to teach Chinese how to design a stealth fighter.
> 
> View attachment 258682



My advice：never ever waste any time with the Viets unless you are bored to death。

These guys are here for one thing and one thing only：talk trash。

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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> How about the progress of WS-13?
> Could FC-31 take off with loaded weight 8t and full fuel tank?



8t payload is about 17,600lb equivalent to max payload of F/A-18e super hornet & su30mk. Most aircraft don't carry that heavy as it'll reduce range and manueverability limited to less than 6g max where the aircraft can't dogfight. 

Fighters such as flankers, f22, f35, j20 and probably j31 too have large internal tank that you only fill full tank for long range missions without having to always rely on external fuel tank like f4, f15c, f16c, f/a-18c, mig29, mirage2000, sepecat jaguar smaller internal fuel tank.

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> Again ... Mr BoQ77 to teach Chinese how to design a stealth fighter.



Let face the main topic. You bring Mig-29 to illustrate FC-31 performance.
You stated FC-31 parameters are correct and realizable and its design is successful
and without evidence to support it, but Mig-29 ( yeah a proven design ) ?

I more than welcome for your logical arguments , not person attack.


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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> Like Mach 1.8 ? vs. 2.25 ? I still think that comparison is illogical
> 
> 
> Does it make sense without proof ?




Stealth aircraft air intake is unique less direct flow where you can't see inside easily to prevent reflecting radar waves back to enemy radar. Also stealth aircraft is usually heavier with the internal bay door and RAM coating layers. Because of these 2 factors, stealth aircraft is slower. J31 has larger internal fuel tank allowing it to carry more fuel internally and i could carry heavier payloads than mig29. You look into overall.

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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> Let face the main topic. You bring Mig-29 to illustrate FC-31 performance.
> You stated FC-31 parameters are correct and realizable and its design is successful
> and without evidence to support it, but Mig-29 ( yeah a proven design ) ?
> 
> I more than welcome for your logical arguments , not person attack.


The evidence just there, but u deny the truth !

1. FC-31 is a stealth prototype, it had been testing fly 3x years in the sky.
2. Current RD-93 more powerful than RD-33, and domestic WS-13 will be better.
3. FC-31 has the internal weapons-bay
4. FC-31 has low RCS shape-design like the F-35
5. FC-31 has modern LCD cockpit
6. FC-31 has body parts produced by 3D printing method, adopting whole body shaped produce-technology.
7. FC-31 has many parts used by composite materials, to reduce body weight.
8. Next year FC-31 v2.0 will add EOTS and other advanced optical sensors onboard.
9. China AVIC offered FC-31 official datas.

Judgement from above information, im sure FC-31 stealth fighter better than ur Mig21 or Su30 ... FC-31 design is successful in China (last left is to install WS-13 engines). When others busy in drawing their next-gen fighter CGI on the paper, here China's FC-31 had flied 3x years and soon updated to v2.0 out in next year.

FC-31 won't better than F-22 but won't behind the F-35A ... both r the stealth fighter at least the gap between FC-31 and F-35A much less than rest 2-gen/ 3-gen fighter vs F-35A.  U know, the best interesting thing is China FC-31 reducing future gap between foreign nation to equip F-35 fleet and China stealth fighters ... in the future those nations to buy F-35 from U.S no any advantage when face PLAAF stealth fighter fleets.

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> The evidence just there, but u deny the truth !
> 
> 1. FC-31 is a stealth prototype, it had been testing fly 3x years in the sky.
> 2. Current RD-93 more powerful than RD-33, and domestic WS-13 will be better.
> 3. FC-31 has the internal weapons-bay
> 4. FC-31 has low RCS shape-design like the F-35
> 5. FC-31 has modern LCD cockpit
> 6. FC-31 has body parts produced by 3D printing method, adopting whole body shaped produce-technology.
> 7. FC-31 has many parts used by composite materials, to reduce body weight.
> 8. Next year FC-31 v2.0 will add EOTS and other advanced optical sensors onboard.
> 9. China AVIC offered FC-31 official datas.
> 
> Judgement from above information, im sure FC-31 stealth fighter better than ur Mig21 or Su30 ... FC-31 design is successful in China (last left is to install WS-13 engines). When others busy in drawing their next-gen fighter CGI on the paper, here China's FC-31 had flied 3x years and soon updated to v2.0 out in next year.
> 
> FC-31 won't better than F-22 but won't behind the F-35A ... both r the stealth fighter at least the gap between FC-31 and F-35A much less than rest 2-gen/ 3-gen fighter vs F-35A.



"will" "is to install" "won't behind" can't count as evidences
official data is meaningless once it's not data in real test.
F35 isn't stealth just by its appearance but also its coating. We can't judge the same quality between 2 or not.
I believe that when FC-31 come into service F-35 would at some more levels of upgrade in about 2023
So it's not so meaning to make sure FC-31 ( still in running changes ) when it come into service better than F-35

I wont refer to J7, J8 or Mig-21 because that derails the topic


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## BoQ77

kungfugymnast said:


> Stealth aircraft air intake is unique less direct flow where you can't see inside easily to prevent reflecting radar waves back to enemy radar. Also stealth aircraft is usually heavier with the internal bay door and RAM coating layers. Because of these 2 factors, stealth aircraft is slower. J31 has larger internal fuel tank allowing it to carry more fuel internally and i could carry heavier payloads than mig29. You look into overall.



I agree Mig-29 and FC-31 are in different platform and one can't be used as illustration for other as our friend cnleio attempt to ( just like F-117A can't even reach supersonic speed while F-18 is Mach 1.8 , using same twin engines)


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> "will" "is to install" "won't behind" can't count as evidences
> official data is meaningless once it's not data in real test.
> F35 isn't stealth just by its appearance but also its coating. We can't judge the same quality between 2 or not.
> I believe that when FC-31 come into service F-35 would at some more levels of upgrade in about 2023
> So it's not so meaning to make sure FC-31 ( still in running changes ) when it come into service better than F-35
> 
> I wont refer to J7, J8 or Mig-21 because that derails the topic


Did i say F-35 or FC-31 which is better ? No, i only mention no big gap between both stealth fighters ... so there's no big advantage like stealth fighter vs Mig21 or Su30.

*Here same generation: * F-22, F-35A, J-20A, T-50, FC-31A stealth fighters
*Here big gap:* Stealth fighter vs 2-gen/3-gen fighters
*Another big gap:* now U.S/China/Russia can produce & update stealth fighters, others waiting for it or waste their time.

Next year new updated FC-31 with EOTS and advanced optical sensors will out, watch out dude !

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## BoQ77

In brief, I just want to be informed the actual progress of the baby FC-31/J-31,
not best wishes. 
My friend !!!


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## S10

BoQ77 said:


> So 500 or 1200 of combat radius?
> I remember we have no report on 31001 support that ( full loaded, full fuel )?
> And it can because you said it can? simple like that?
> I doubt about the fact that 31001 could done many things easily.



Which part of "combat radius differs due to loadout, mission requirement and altitude" did you not understand? It's not a fixed number, but mission dependent.



BoQ77 said:


> In brief, I just want to be informed the actual progress of the baby FC-31/J-31,
> not best wishes.
> My friend !!!



What wishes? All the sub-systems are there for the public to view at the Zhuhair Airshow, including weapons, radar and EOTS.

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## nadeemkhan110

*when will J-20 and j-35 will be in service?*


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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> Next year new updated FC-31 with EOTS and advanced optical sensors will out, watch out dude !
> View attachment 258825



Reduce using "will" and report when you really think that thing already in place. That strengthen your statement.

I'm in hope with J-31 more than J-20, but it seem that they put too little investment to J-31 project, so the progress is too slow. While someone claimed it fly 3x years in the sky, still there's not much improvement.

Everything we see is one 31001 and some more plastic prototypes in here or there in an attempt to get more foreign investment on the project. No money, very slow progress as I see.


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> Reduce using "will" and report when you really think that thing already in place. That strengthen your statement.
> 
> I'm in hope with J-31 more than J-20, but it seem that they put too little investment to J-31 project, so the progress is too slow. While someone claimed it fly 3x years in the sky, still there's not much improvement.
> 
> Everything we see is one 31001 and some more plastic prototypes in here or there in an attempt to get more foreign investment on the project. No money, very slow progress as I see.


LOL ... China focus on J-20 project coz its configuration better than FC-31 for PLAAF to against F-22 ... F-22 is immediate threat to China not F-35, PLAAF will equip more J-20A fighters than J-31A.

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## cnleio

A FC-31 model ... 































nadeemkhan110 said:


> *when will J-20 and j-35 will be in service?*


According to current news, J-20A might service in 2017~2018 ... J-31A will be later.

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## cirr

cnleio said:


> A FC-31 model ...
> 
> View attachment 258965
> View attachment 258966
> View attachment 258967
> View attachment 258968
> View attachment 258969
> View attachment 258970
> View attachment 258971
> View attachment 258972
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to current news, J-20A might service in 2017~2018 ... J-31A will be later.



What the heck！

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## aliaselin

> 2010年，韩冬作为型号常务副总设计师先后主持四个型号发动机的研制工作。他殚精竭虑、呕心沥血，带领团队顽强拼搏、奋勇攻关，攻克了一个又一个难题，创造了一个又一个奇迹。其中一型发动机配装某多用途四代飞机于2012年成功实现首飞，标志着我国成为继美国之后第二个同时研制2型第四代作战飞机的国家，极大振奋了国人士气，提升了国防实力；另一型发动机于2013年配装某隐身无人作战飞机验证机成功实现首飞，使我国成为继美、法、英等国之后，第四个具备研制尖端大型无人作战飞机的国家。



This official report confirms that FC-31 used after-burn version of WS-13, while Sharp Sword used non after-burn version of WS-13



> 为保证某多用途四代飞机按期实现首飞，在发动机附件传动装置持久试验出现裂纹故障后，韩冬立即带领团队飞赴试验现场，亲自进行故障件断口分析和编写故障分析报告，仅用7天时间就确定了裂纹性质和裂纹形成的原因，并提出解决措施。随后，他迅速组织项目团队，重新修改铸件模具，重新铸造和机械加工，仅用3个月时间即完成了大型铸造件的试制和精加工，并在后续的15天内完成持久试验考核，验证了解决措施的有效性，完成3台发动机调试和交付出厂。紧接着他又组织团队不分昼夜配合飞机单位完成装机地面试验，保障了某多用途四代机按计划实现首飞。


In more details, they has handed over 3 WS-13 for FC-31 project

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## Deino

Interesting, but could You please provide a link / source of this report ??ß

Otherwise it could come from everywhere !

Thanks a lot,
Deino

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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Interesting, but could You please provide a link / source of this report ??ß
> 
> Otherwise it could come from everywhere !
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> Deino


航空报国酬壮志 长天映照赤子心

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## BoQ77

Deino said:


> Interesting, but could You please provide a link / source of this report ??ß
> 
> Otherwise it could come from everywhere !
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> Deino



the article in April. and dont know why 3?


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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> I agree Mig-29 and FC-31 are in different platform and one can't be used as illustration for other as our friend cnleio attempt to ( just like F-117A can't even reach supersonic speed while F-18 is Mach 1.8 , using same twin engines)



F117a are fitted with non-afterburning medium size engines having just 11000lb each. Also, the odd shape design reduced its aerodynamic.

As for your debate on j31, its stealth tech derived from the f117 generation 1 stealth layers wreckage shot down over Serbia, stolen f35 information by hackers and the joint research analysis with Russia done detection experiments on US stealth aircraft flying over Serbia during Kosovo campaign. F22 and f35 are fitted with 2nd generation stealth. J31 stealth could either be not be as good as the f35 or comparable depends on whether they managed to steal generation 2 stealth and how well they managed to replicate. At least there's something to put up against than none.

If Shenyang manufacturer knows how to think rather than follow Americans blindly, they should build j31conventional ram coating variant without internal bay mainly for carrying external armaments, having better performance and able to perform multi role sorties. Conventional low rcs variant is less stealthy but still having better survival than flankers, super hornets, f15e, f16 in air to air and air to ground.



cnleio said:


> LOL ... China focus on J-20 project coz its configuration better than FC-31 for PLAAF to against F-22 ... F-22 is immediate threat to China not F-35, PLAAF will equip more J-20A fighters than J-31A.
> View attachment 258940



That's because everyone notice a stealth fighter being too small like f35 could not carry out stealth mission well with very limited armaments which is pointless. Stealth fighter needs to be big to carry more internal armaments engaging air and ground targets where dogfight is only when necessary. 

J31 should be made as low RCS more fuel efficient patrol fighters and to provide close air support. Shenyang needs to have it redesigned without internal bay and carry external armaments in stealth pods instead. F15SE showed how conformal weapons bay work which is practical yet effective. J31 could do better. Later development could be navalized j31 that could fulfill carrier role better because it's lighter and could carry similar fuel as j15.

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## applesauce

kungfugymnast said:


> F117a are fitted with non-afterburning medium size engines having just 11000lb each. Also, the odd shape design reduced its aerodynamic.
> 
> As for your debate on j31, its stealth tech derived from the f117 generation 1 stealth layers wreckage shot down over Serbia, stolen f35 information by hackers and the joint research analysis with Russia done detection experiments on US stealth aircraft flying over Serbia during Kosovo campaign. F22 and f35 are fitted with 2nd generation stealth. J31 stealth could either be not be as good as the f35 or comparable depends on whether they managed to steal generation 2 stealth and how well they managed to replicate. At least there's something to put up against than none.



first of all you are clearly racist, secondly you have no evidence.

you are assuming, china has Zero engineers, scientists who understand RCS and must steal all the data. this is quite insulting to all chinese peoples. the F-117 is mostly the way it is because at the time of its design, no computers existed yet that was powerful enough to be used to design smooth surfaces that are gave low RCS. China of course currently run the most powerful supercomputer in the world.




kungfugymnast said:


> If Shenyang manufacturer knows how to think rather than follow Americans blindly, they should build j31conventional ram coating variant without internal bay mainly for carrying external armaments, having better performance and able to perform multi role sorties. Conventional low rcs variant is less stealthy but still having better survival than flankers, super hornets, f15e, f16 in air to air and air to ground.



if you were smart, and you are clearly not, given that you are a racist bigot as proven in your first paragraph, a stealth plane with external loads is no longer a stealth plane. but of course you think you are smarter than US, Russian, Chinese, actual scientists, engineers and designers who actually work on real 5th gen programs and all of whom see internal bays as essential, as oppose to some dream world you live in. stealth pods will never be as good as internal bays, and having internal bays doesnt stop one from using pods.





kungfugymnast said:


> That's because everyone notice a stealth fighter being too small like f35 could not carry out stealth mission well with very limited armaments which is pointless. Stealth fighter needs to be big to carry more internal armaments engaging air and ground targets where dogfight is only when necessary.



the F-35's internal bay isnt too small, its job to to kick down the doors, ie: take out the sams, and then conventional planes and/or the F-35 using its hard points can then take out everything else. and a f-35 on a bombing run isnt going to be alone, itll be escorted by dedicated air to air setups of the f-35 or worst yet for its enemies, it may be escorted by f-22s. frankly except Russian and chinese airspace, all others, the f-35/f-22 combo is pretty much overkill.



kungfugymnast said:


> J31 should be made as low RCS more fuel efficient patrol fighters and to provide close air support. Shenyang needs to have it redesigned without internal bay and carry external armaments in stealth pods instead. F15SE showed how conformal weapons bay work which is practical yet effective. J31 could do better. Later development could be navalized j31 that could fulfill carrier role better because it's lighter and could carry similar fuel as j15.



or the j-31 is fine as it

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## kungfugymnast

applesauce said:


> first of all you are clearly racist, secondly you have no evidence.
> 
> you are assuming, china has Zero engineers, scientists who understand RCS and must steal all the data. this is quite insulting to all chinese peoples. the F-117 is mostly the way it is because at the time of its design, no computers existed yet that was powerful enough to be used to design smooth surfaces that are gave low RCS. China of course currently run the most powerful supercomputer in the world.
> 
> if you were smart, and you are clearly not, given that you are a racist bigot as proven in your first paragraph, a stealth plane with external loads is no longer a stealth plane. but of course you think you are smarter than US, Russian, Chinese, actual scientists, engineers and designers who actually work on real 5th gen programs and all of whom see internal bays as essential, as oppose to some dream world you live in. stealth pods will never be as good as internal bays, and having internal bays doesnt stop one from using pods.
> 
> the F-35's internal bay isnt too small, its job to to kick down the doors, ie: take out the sams, and then conventional planes and/or the F-35 using its hard points can then take out everything else. and a f-35 on a bombing run isnt going to be alone, itll be escorted by dedicated air to air setups of the f-35 or worst yet for its enemies, it may be escorted by f-22s. frankly except Russian and chinese airspace, all others, the f-35/f-22 combo is pretty much overkill.
> 
> or the j-31 is fine as it



I am the least racist and i'm Chinese been debating with other races with points & explanation rather than calling others troll, etc. 

You think people can develop stealth out of thin air without reverse engineering and conducting detection research on American stealth planes in warzone & friendly bases? Even Brits, Germans, Aussies done detection research on US B2 flown over friendly bases using various sensors looking for methods to defeat the stealth. Over Serbia Kosovo conflict, Russian researchers been conducting similar test by waiting at the usual waypoints used by American aircrafts. They used human spotters, optronic and sound detector to spot stealth aircraft flying past, done several detection test until they found stealth weakness and attempted to track and shoot the f117 down. That's how Russia & China obtained solid stealth materials from the wreckage and done reverse engineering. If you're Chinese, you're being too ego & overproud. I don't have a problem with this facts. 

Fyi, Russian aircraft technology started by reverse engineering on captured Germans bf109 and later British jet engine. Their air to air missiles tech too derived from unexploded Aim9b stuck in PLA fighter. Even Americans got the tech from french, British, germans, russians via reverse engineering. 

F35 internal bay is limited to just 4 missiles or 2 missiles & 2 jdams. How many targets can you destroy? If f35 would have to carry external loads mostly, it's more practical to have variant without internal bay to save the weight and wasted space. Get it? There was earlier proposed plan for navalized f22n without internal bay to cut weight and carry external armaments aimed at replacing f14s.

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## BoQ77

Your new point, @kungfugymnast , blamed that bulky internal weapon bay cause the RCS bigger ?
And for more weapon, you may prefer below over J31 ?

Do you think that similar to add a physical keyboard to a smartphone with touch screen?
when they go for a compact and smooth by eliminate the external. And yes, I prefer the physical keyboard but we can't get all in 1

My idea is that China don't need any stealth fighter with limited internal weapon bay at all.
American may want it or not, they have other better choices for heavy bombing,...










or


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> My idea is that China don't need any stealth fighter with limited internal weapon bay at all.
> American may want it or not, they have other better choices for heavy bombing,...


U'd better stop such stupid post in this thread ... leave them to poor Vietnam airforce. Of course China need stealth fighter, before ur Super-F15 detect the stealth fighter PL-12C/D or PL-15 missiles already shoot it down ... Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile and AWACS to guide 60~100km long-range attack by AIM-120, R-77, PL-12 missiles. 

U like carrying more missiles to show off ? 


















Who tell u the stealth fighter can not install external missile pads ?? Just do for FC-31 too !

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Interesting, but could You please provide a link / source of this report ??ß
> 
> Otherwise it could come from everywhere !
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> Deino



航空报国酬壮志 长天映照赤子心

J-31001 made its first flight with indigenous engines（3rd and 6th paragraphs）back in 2012。

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## BoQ77

kungfugymnast said:


> I am the least racist and i'm Chinese been debating with other races with points & explanation rather than calling others troll, etc.
> 
> You think people can develop stealth out of thin air without reverse engineering and conducting detection research on American stealth planes in warzone & friendly bases? Even Brits, Germans, Aussies done detection research on US B2 flown over friendly bases using various sensors looking for methods to defeat the stealth. Over Serbia Kosovo conflict, Russian researchers been conducting similar test by waiting at the usual waypoints used by American aircrafts. They used human spotters, optronic and sound detector to spot stealth aircraft flying past, done several detection test until they found stealth weakness and attempted to track and shoot the f117 down. That's how Russia & China obtained solid stealth materials from the wreckage and done reverse engineering. If you're Chinese, you're being too ego & overproud. I don't have a problem with this facts.
> 
> Fyi, Russian aircraft technology started by reverse engineering on captured Germans bf109 and later British jet engine. Their air to air missiles tech too derived from unexploded Aim9b stuck in PLA fighter. Even Americans got the tech from french, British, germans, russians via reverse engineering.
> 
> F35 internal bay is limited to just 4 missiles or 2 missiles & 2 jdams. How many targets can you destroy? If f35 would have to carry external loads mostly, it's more practical to have variant without internal bay to save the weight and wasted space. Get it? There was earlier proposed plan for navalized f22n without internal bay to cut weight and carry external armaments aimed at replacing f14s.





cnleio said:


> U'd better stop such *stupid* post in this thread ... leave them to *poor Vietnam* airforce. Of course China need stealth fighter, before ur Super-F15 detect the stealth fighter PL-12C/D or PL-15 missiles already shoot it down ...



Stop call others as stupid, and bashing country, cnleio !!! @Deino
Do you know how a discussion is on the PDF? respect other opinion, even when they're different.
I didn't apply my opinion over yours, you could argue, fight back. It's ok but who the hell arguments by calling other country name after "poor" "stupid" ?
We know who is trolling here, cnleio !!!

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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> Stop call others as stupid, and bashing country, cnleio !!! @Deino
> Do you know how a discussion is on the PDF? respect other opinion, even when they're different.
> I didn't apply my opinion over yours, you could argue, fight back. It's ok but who the hell arguments by calling other country name after "poor" "stupid" ?


I already gave u a answer ... stealth fighter with external missile pads, so u'd better stop troll here.

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> I already gave u a answer ... stealth fighter with external missile pads, so u'd better stop troll here.



why you call me trolling?
did you mention that my question is for @kungfugymnast to make clear his idea?
It's only you who know stealth fighter can mount external missile pads? let's listen to the answer of kungfugymnast.



kungfugymnast said:


> F117a are fitted with non-afterburning medium size engines having just 11000lb each. Also, the odd shape design reduced its aerodynamic.
> 
> As for your debate on j31, its stealth tech derived from the f117 generation 1 stealth layers wreckage shot down over Serbia, stolen f35 information by hackers and the joint research analysis with Russia done detection experiments on US stealth aircraft flying over Serbia during Kosovo campaign. F22 and f35 are fitted with 2nd generation stealth. J31 stealth could either be not be as good as the f35 or comparable depends on whether they managed to steal generation 2 stealth and how well they managed to replicate. At least there's something to put up against than none.
> 
> If Shenyang manufacturer knows how to think rather than follow Americans blindly, they should build j31conventional ram coating variant without internal bay mainly for carrying external armaments, having better performance and able to perform multi role sorties. Conventional low rcs variant is less stealthy but still having better survival than flankers, super hornets, f15e, f16 in air to air and air to ground.
> 
> That's because everyone notice a stealth fighter being too small like f35 could not carry out stealth mission well with very limited armaments which is pointless. Stealth fighter needs to be big to carry more internal armaments engaging air and ground targets where dogfight is only when necessary.
> 
> J31 should be made as low RCS more fuel efficient patrol fighters and to provide close air support. Shenyang needs to have it redesigned without internal bay and carry external armaments in stealth pods instead. F15SE showed how conformal weapons bay work which is practical yet effective. J31 could do better. Later development could be navalized j31 that could fulfill carrier role better because it's lighter and could carry similar fuel as j15.



I dont think Russia has joint research or share with China on stealth technology.
to summarize
to you, stealth fighters have meaning only when they could bring more weapon ( not only a few in internal bay)
so you need stealth fighter bigger ( you direct attack to J31 design, while seem prefer J20, right? )
and your suggestion is Shenyang need to redesign J31 ( by remove internal weapon bay ) if they still want to continue to develop J31 ?
==========
My idea based on the strategy a country adopt when start the development of ( or simply choose and buy ) the design.

1. The American set requirements for their next generation, in the F35 case, at initial to replace for F16 and F18 and it satisfied them. The B variant was added later as combination of the second project to replace the USMC STOVL and it satisfied them too.
The fighters are good, when it satisfied their doctrine.

2. Except your strategy exactly the same to American, and have similar assets they had, follow their old tracks should be very careful.

American has a good start of order for thousand of these fighters on hand, it boost the economic aspect too. Not a loss but a win. They need to replace their old F-16 by this one F-35A.
China now has the similar role design to F-16, it's J-10.
And J31 is a twin engine
Can anyone tell me, What J31/FC31 are for ?


----------



## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> I dont think Russia has joint research or share with China on stealth technology.
> to summarize
> to you, stealth fighters have meaning only when they could bring more weapon ( not only a few in internal bay)
> so you need stealth fighter bigger ( you direct attack to J31 design, while seem prefer J20, right? )
> and your suggestion is Shenyang need to redesign J31 ( by remove internal weapon bay ) if they still want to continue to develop J31 ?
> ==========
> My idea based on the strategy a country adopt when start the development of ( or simply choose and buy ) the design.
> 
> 1. The American set requirements for their next generation, in the F35 case, at initial to replace for F16 and F18 and it satisfied them. The B variant was added later as combination of the second project to replace the USMC STOVL and it satisfied them too.
> The fighters are good, when it satisfied their doctrine.
> 
> 2. Except your strategy exactly the same to American, and have similar assets they had, follow their old tracks should be very careful.
> 
> American has a good start of order for thousand of these fighters on hand, it boost the economic aspect too. Not a loss but a win. They need to replace their old F-16 by this one F-35A.
> China now has the similar role design to F-16, it's J-10.
> And J31 is a twin engine
> Can anyone tell me, What J31/FC31 are for ?



Russia & China don't joint R&D. The detection research done on US stealth aircraft flying over Serbia~Kosovo was carried out separately. The shot down f117 wreckage was shared by both for reverse engineering. 

There are several countries claimed they are building stealth aircrafts but only Russia & China came out with their flying prototypes. As mentioned, nobody could create stealth tech out of thin air when Americans are keeping the secrets tight. British, French, Germans, Japanese, Koreans won't be able to build 1 before getting to replicate the f35. 

J31 is a twin engine medium fighter. It has better range than j10 and better fuel consumption than j11. The stealth variant with internal bay could be used for strategic strike and high asset value intercept while non-stealth low RCS without internal bay can be used as multi role fighters. After china understand more on carrier landing, they'll make j31 navalized variantas f35c and super hornets equivalent.



BoQ77 said:


> Your new point, @kungfugymnast , blamed that bulky internal weapon bay cause the RCS bigger ?
> And for more weapon, you may prefer below over J31 ?
> 
> Do you think that similar to add a physical keyboard to a smartphone with touch screen?
> when they go for a compact and smooth by eliminate the external. And yes, I prefer the physical keyboard but we can't get all in 1
> 
> My idea is that China don't need any stealth fighter with limited internal weapon bay at all.
> American may want it or not, they have other better choices for heavy bombing,...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or



Thanks for the nice pictures. You got it the other way round. Having internal bay is for full stealth variant. I'm saying it's added advantage to have non-stealth low RCS variant without internal bay. If you look at most of the war, multi role fighters involved in attacking ground targets more than air to air. Conventional low rcs variant that carry external armaments are vital for attacking multiple ground （vehicles, SAMs, structures, etc） and air targets. You need stealth & conventional variants to work.


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## That Guy

There have been rumors about the 2nd example coming by the end of the year, but nothing about how different it will be. Anyone wanna take a guess?


----------



## BoQ77

kungfugymnast said:


> J31 is a twin engine medium fighter. It has better range than j10 and better fuel consumption than j11. The stealth variant with internal bay could be used for strategic strike and high asset value intercept while non-stealth low RCS without internal bay can be used as multi role fighters.


why twin? to you. Coincidence that now Russian only twin.
And USA prefer single with majority of multirole is single ( incl. F-16 )



> Having internal bay is for full stealth variant. I'm saying it's added advantage to have non-stealth low RCS variant without internal bay.


This is exactly current design of J31/FC31 and all other stealth ( could utilize the external weapon pod )



> If you look at most of the war, multi role fighters involved in attacking ground targets more than air to air. Conventional low rcs variant that carry external armaments are vital for attacking multiple ground （vehicles, SAMs, structures, etc） and air targets.



This is exactly current design of today attack fighters. Even A-10 still utilized as CAS role ( I feel it's quite risky btw ). 
They claimed that F35 could do that better without need to fly at low altitude


----------



## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> why twin? to you. Coincidence that now Russian only twin.
> And USA prefer single with majority of multirole is single ( incl. F-16 )
> 
> 
> This is exactly current design of J31/FC31 and all other stealth ( could utilize the external weapon pod )
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly current design of today attack fighters. Even A-10 still utilized as CAS role ( I feel it's quite risky btw ).
> They claimed that F35 could do that better without need to fly at low altitude



Twin engine is better than just 1. If your aircraft took hits and lost an engine, you could fly home safely like the few f15s cases. F16s are smaller and cheaper, that's why you Americans flown f16s for ground attack missions while F15c provided air cover. Smaller area of surface also means smaller target for AAAs.

Check the weight difference for having internal bay & without. Also, without the bay, the fuselage thickness could be reduced if they created this variant. Unlike A10, the low rcs non~stealth j31 eventually reduced enemy detection & missiles effectiveness allowing the j31 to use FLIR targeting system from 10 miles away safely taking out SAMs, AAAs, GCI radars then finish off the tanks, structures, etc. China should build long range tactical missiles equivalent to agm65g maverick.

Present f35 with just 2~4 jdams, what can they attack when enemy ground units would scatter far apart from each others? Just destroy 2~4 mobile air defenses then return to base and come back again? That'll give enemy time to call air cover and blow the f35 off the sky


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## Zarvan

A sub-scale model of the Shenyang FC-31 fifth-generation fighter made its second appearance at the September 2015 Beijing Air Show. Source: Via Top81 web page
The posting on Chinese websites of possible performance data for the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) FC-31 fifth-generation fighter indicates it could pose a commercial threat to Western and Russian fighter manufacturers.

A modified version of SAC's J-31 technology development fighter, an FC-31 model made its second appearance at the Beijing Air Show in mid-September. However, as at its debut appearance at the November 2014 Airshow China at Zhuhai, the Aviation Industries Corporation of China (AVIC) did not provide data on the aircraft.

On 15 September FC-31 performance data was posted anonymously online. The data reads like descriptive information intended for internal Chinese distribution and was apparently deemed not sensitive enough to be deleted by China's formidable internet censors. Other sources suggest it could have been released at the Beijing Air Show.

Apparently semi-approved internet revelations of otherwise classified data happen frequently, as the J-31's gradual revelation from 2010 to 2012 illustrate. However, the unofficial nature of such data deservedly prompts questions about its credibility.

For example, in the absence of more data on the FC-31's true empty weight, internal fuel capacity, and engine efficiency, some Chinese observers questioned claims that the "internal fuel combat radius" for a fighter of its size could be as much as 1,200 km.

However, the reported maximum engine thrust figure of "88.29 kn" or 9 tons, does conform with statements made by Chinese officials to _IHS Jane's_ at the 2015 Paris Air Show that China was testing a new 9-ton medium thrust turbofan on the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation FC-1/JF-17 fighter. Thought to be an improved version of the WS-13 Taishan turbofan reportedly developed from the Russian Klimov 8.29-ton thrust RD-33 turbofan, it will power versions of the single-engine FC-1 and the twin-engine FC-31.

The data posted online describes the FC-31 as "designed for high survivability, low radar detectability, low IR (infrared) signature, and excellent capabilities for electronic counter measures".

*Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options **ihs.com/contact*




To read the full article, Client Login
(337 of 525 words)

Shenyang FC-31 fighter performance 'leaked' online - IHS Jane's 360

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## mzeeshanfahd

*Guys found this on russian media....*



*China’s new J-31 fighter has raised speculation about the American-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The website Defense One compared the two fighter jets to see which one has the advantage: America or China?*

China’s J-31 fighter jet design has a striking resemblance to the single-jet F-35. But according to the data which was firstly published by military magazine Janes, The US F-35 can fly slightly farther and carry a heavier load of weapons.







Chinese Symbols: What Message was Beijing's Military Parade Sending to the World?
Military experts also pointed out that the F-35 has a better computer software, unique sensors and other hardware, stealth coating, and engines technology. These attributes make fifth-generation aircraft different than the military jets of last century.


But the senior Pentagon officials and experts believe America’s technology superiority is shrinking.

“[W]e were depending more so on the [American weapons] having that generation-ahead edge and if we don’t have that generation ahead edge that is incredibly scary for us in various scenarios,” Peter Singer, a strategist and senior fellow at New America said, Defense One reported.

US Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work and Acquisition Chief Frank Kendall have been warning for the past two years that the US military’s technology advantage is wearing down.







US May Deploy Next Generation F-35 Jets in 2016 - Air Force
In 2011 it became known that China was building a multirole, stealth fighter of its own that could strike targets in the air and on the ground, like the F-35. The J-31 flew for the first time in 2012.


The Chinese continue to invest into the R&D of future fighter jets and it now plans to construct the J-20 stealth fighter being built to rival the F-22.

Although America’s fighter jet development program will end in 2017 it will transition into a ‘follow-on development’ phase allowing it to go through upgrades and required changes.

As Defense One concluded, while the Chinese jet fighters might still be inferior to the American plane, not having to do early research and development allows them to focus on upgrades and improvements.



Read more: Who Will Have Technical Superiority: Chinese J-31 or US F-35


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## Kompromat

It needs side bays.


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## kungfugymnast

Horus said:


> It needs side bays.



Yes, j31 needed side bays for 2 pl9 or pl10 short range IR guided missiles, then in total, it could carry 6x air to air missiles overall. 

@mzeeshanfahd 
Yes the f35 is definitely superior in stealth (gen2), avionics, engine thrust, payload and bigger internal bay. However, it could carry only 4x air to air missiles and for ground attack, it carries mostly gliding guided bombs either 2x jdam or 8x sdb 2 while carrying 2x Amraam. If it's willing to forgo stealth, it'll have 6 underwing pylons to carry standard armaments used by f15/16/18. 

The j31, if they made it lighter, it'll have better fuel economy to loiter longer, probably better range and thrust to weight ratio. Alternatively, Shenyang could get the j31 redesigned without internal bay turning it into low RCS conventional multi role fighter or new navalized fighter.

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## Knight Rider

China has unveiled an updated version of the J-31 "Gyrfalcon" fighter jet, which is expected to be marketed internationally within the next five years, reports the Beijing-based Sina Military Network.
An updated model of the J-31 — a single-seat, twin-engine, fifth-generation stealth multirole fighter developed by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation — was recently on display at the 16th China Aviation Expo in Beijing from Sept. 16-19.
With a redesigned tail, the J-31's aerodynamic and stealth capabilities are said to have already surpassed most traditional fighter jets and will soon have an upgraded avionics system. Its current Russian-made RD-93 engine is also expected to be upgraded with a new version of the Chinese-made WS-13 engine in the future.







The J-31 reportedly reaches a max speed of Mach 1.8 and a combat radius of 2,000 kilometers, essentially satisfying the requirements of a carrier-based jet. In addition, the aircraft is said to have been designed for high survivability, low vulnerability to radar detection and low infrared radiation, and possesses excellent electronic countermeasures. The stealth fighter also has powerful target detection and external information gathering functionality, meaning it will have strong air combat capabilities can attack both land and sea targets.
The development of the J-31 has been extremely fast as it is based on mature technology, Sina Military said, noting that there have been allegations that China stole technology from America's F-35 Lightning fighter jet to design the aircraft.
The J-31 is expected to complete test flights within the next five years and be promoted on the international market shortly thereafter. By 2024, China could market the J-31 as a replacement for the current JF-17 Block II multirole combat aircraft it jointly developed with Pakistan.

Apart from advanced capabilities, the main selling point of the J-31 is its low price, which might even be cheaper than some third-generation fighters out on the market, the report said.
There are also rumors that the J-31 could end up having multiple variants, including an aircraft carrier model and a bomber model.

China's Updated J-31 Unveiled, Expected to Hit Global Market in 5 yrs - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

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## Zarvan

Knight Rider said:


> China has unveiled an updated version of the J-31 "Gyrfalcon" fighter jet, which is expected to be marketed internationally within the next five years, reports the Beijing-based Sina Military Network.
> An updated model of the J-31 — a single-seat, twin-engine, fifth-generation stealth multirole fighter developed by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation — was recently on display at the 16th China Aviation Expo in Beijing from Sept. 16-19.
> With a redesigned tail, the J-31's aerodynamic and stealth capabilities are said to have already surpassed most traditional fighter jets and will soon have an upgraded avionics system. Its current Russian-made RD-93 engine is also expected to be upgraded with a new version of the Chinese-made WS-13 engine in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The J-31 reportedly reaches a max speed of Mach 1.8 and a combat radius of 2,000 kilometers, essentially satisfying the requirements of a carrier-based jet. In addition, the aircraft is said to have been designed for high survivability, low vulnerability to radar detection and low infrared radiation, and possesses excellent electronic countermeasures. The stealth fighter also has powerful target detection and external information gathering functionality, meaning it will have strong air combat capabilities can attack both land and sea targets.
> The development of the J-31 has been extremely fast as it is based on mature technology, Sina Military said, noting that there have been allegations that China stole technology from America's F-35 Lightning fighter jet to design the aircraft.
> The J-31 is expected to complete test flights within the next five years and be promoted on the international market shortly thereafter. By 2024, China could market the J-31 as a replacement for the current JF-17 Block II multirole combat aircraft it jointly developed with Pakistan.
> 
> Apart from advanced capabilities, the main selling point of the J-31 is its low price, which might even be cheaper than some third-generation fighters out on the market, the report said.
> There are also rumors that the J-31 could end up having multiple variants, including an aircraft carrier model and a bomber model.
> 
> China's Updated J-31 Unveiled, Expected to Hit Global Market in 5 yrs - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


Talks of JF-17 BLOCK II getting replaced already getting started well I hope it enters market in less than 5 years and with new engine and far better avionics and also that J-20 and J-31 both get side bays. We also need to improve our economy if we want to induct these Jets in really large numbers.

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## Knight Rider

Zarvan said:


> Talks of JF-17 BLOCK II getting replaced already getting started well I hope it enters market in less than 5 years and with new engine and far better avionics and also that J-20 and J-31 both get side bays. We also need to improve our economy if we want to induct these Jets in really large numbers.



May be replacing it with FC-31 for marketing purposes because JF-17 Thunder is not getting Foreign Deal often. 
But JF-17 will serve in Pakistan Air force because it only entered service 9 years ago replacing JF-17's is out of question for PAF.


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## BoQ77

Combat radius : 2000km / It's so great.
Wonder what's the price.
But 2024 is way too long for it to enter marketing phase.


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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> Combat radius : 2000km / It's so great.
> Wonder what's the price.
> But 2024 is way too long for it to enter marketing phase.



It won't be that long since the j31 is to counter threat of F35 flown by US & Japan air force navy & marines. 2000km is about 1200miles. It is possible if shenyang made the j31 lightweight with its ws13 engines generate similar thrust as f18e and carry only 4x pl12 internally while on max fuel.


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## jhungary

kungfugymnast said:


> Single engine usually for cost effective, ease of maintenance, light weight purpose. Having twin engine is for ability to carry heavier payload and better failsafe. 2 is better than 1. It's not just about reliable, it's about better failsafe.
> 
> Regarding the mishaps, why not you blame the technical design flaw instead? If you wanted to say there were more f15 crashes then f16, you should look at the cost of replacing a single f15 & f16. If you notice, USAF tends to keep an f15 longer than f16. F15 that hits decades old only received patches while f16 that reached that lifespan, they buy new replacement just because it's cheaper.
> 
> The current f35, how heavy are they when carrying external payloads? Can they still maneuver when stealth compromised? Stealth pods come with additional weight too. You know much weight could it shed if it doesn't come with internal bay and big belly. Verdict, small~medium size stealth fighter with internal bay is just not practical.



Well........what you said was mostly untrue....

Single Engine Aircraft and Twin Engine Aircraft is not just about fail safe, it's also about performance. The failure rate is the same regarding Twin Engine aircraft and Single engine aircraft. Because unlike civilian aircraft, the engine were placed together not on either side of the wing so they cannot be balance out like a Boeing 747.

Also if one engine failed in a twin engine aircraft, you will lose thrust a single engine usually do not have enough power to keep the aircraft aerodynamically stable. So, when you have a twin engine aircraft having 1 engine down, it would be of the same fate as any single engine aircraft, which you need glide to your destination.

Another thing is the US does not simply go buy another F-16 when the older one reach their lift expectancy, they upgrade it via Block Upgrade or MLU, same thing happened to other F-series aircraft.

The final point being a stealth aircraft, F-35 does not require super agility and the statement "Can F-35 still manoeuvre when stealth compromised" is a conflict of interest. You go stealth so that you don't need to be manoeuvrable and dodging enemy missile. If I design a plane from ground up to be agile, then why would you design a stealth plane in the first place?

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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> Yep. Japanese already has 4 light aircraft carriers. Once they get F-35B, it's a big threat.
> 10 years.
> -------
> 2x engines and sub system put more weight to the total weight of J-31



How many f35b could a single Japanese assault ship operate? 12 maybe. So 4 amphibious assault ships would have 48x f35b. In response, china navy would need 2 carriers at least to have 2 wings of j15 and 2 wings of j31 to counter


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## Deino

*GUYS ... again STOP this off-topic discussion !*

*I will delete each and every off-topic post if You can't stop.*

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> *GUYS ... again STOP this off-topic discussion !*
> 
> *I will delete each and every off-topic post if You can't stop.*
> 
> Deino


Please do so!


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## datalibdaz

BEIJING: China's top aircraft manufacturer has revealed specifications of an advanced stealth fighter jet in a bid to lure foreign buyers, the official China Daily reported on Friday.

In a rare disclosure, the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (Avic) unveiled the capabilities of the J-31 aircraft at an aviation show, even though the jet is still being tested, the newspaper said.

Avic officials have made no secret of the fact that they are seeking foreign buyers for the aircraft, hoping to compete with Lockheed Martin's F-35.

Countries that cannot buy weaponry from the United States (US) have increasingly sought them from China, particularly because Chinese arms are often cheaper.

Avic said the fifth-generation fighter jet, which has a 1,200 kilometre combat range and a top speed of 2,205 kph, is designed to be in service for up to 30 years, the China Daily reported.

It has a maximum payload capacity of 8 metric tons, the newspaper said.

An Avic executive said last year the jet could "take down" foreign rivals in the sky.

The twin-engine J-31 took its maiden flight in 2012.

Read: _China shows off new stealth fighter_

Defence analysts have often compared the jet to the US-made F-35, and US officials have speculated that China may have used cyber espionage to acquire classified knowledge about the aircraft's development.

Stealth aircraft are vital to China developing the ability to carry out both offensive and defensive operations, the Pentagon has said in a report about developments in China's military.

The J-31 is China's second domestically produced stealth fighter jet.

President Xi Jinping has pushed to toughen the 2.3 million-strong armed forces as the country takes a more assertive stance in the region, particularly in the South China and East China seas.

China plane maker reveals stealth jet capabilities to lure buyers - World - DAWN.COM

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## omega supremme

BEIJING: China's top aircraft manufacturer has revealed specifications of an advanced stealth fighter jet in a bid to lure foreign buyers, the official China Daily reported on Friday.

In a rare disclosure, the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (Avic) unveiled the capabilities of the J-31 aircraft at an aviation show, even though the jet is still being tested, the newspaper said.

Avic officials have made no secret of the fact that they are seeking foreign buyers for the aircraft, hoping to compete with Lockheed Martin's F-35.

Countries that cannot buy weaponry from the United States (US) have increasingly sought them from China, particularly because Chinese arms are often cheaper.

Avic said the fifth-generation fighter jet, which has a 1,200 kilometre combat range and a top speed of 2,205 kph, is designed to be in service for up to 30 years, the China Daily reported.

It has a maximum payload capacity of 8 metric tons, the newspaper said.

An Avic executive said last year the jet could "take down" foreign rivals in the sky.

The twin-engine J-31 took its maiden flight in 2012.

Read: _China shows off new stealth fighter_

Defence analysts have often compared the jet to the US-made F-35, and US officials have speculated that China may have used cyber espionage to acquire classified knowledge about the aircraft's development.

Stealth aircraft are vital to China developing the ability to carry out both offensive and defensive operations, the Pentagon has said in a report about developments in China's military.

The J-31 is China's second domestically produced stealth fighter jet.

President Xi Jinping has pushed to toughen the 2.3 million-strong armed forces as the country takes a more assertive stance in the region, particularly in the South China and East China seas.


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## TaiShang

*China will export new fighter jet*
China Daily, October 9, 2015

China's leading aircraft manufacturer is on the verge of exporting its fifth-generation fighter jet, according to industry sources.



 

Aviation Industry Corp of China disclosed the technical specifications of the J-31 at an aviation expo even though the plane was still being tested, the sources said.

During the four-day Aviation Expo China 2015, a biennial event held in Beijing in mid-September, AVIC also displayed a large-scale model of the J-31.

Expo visitors were surprised that the State-owned defense contractor was willing to declassify the J-31's specifications, as it had never previously released such information on military air-craft until they entered mass-production and were ready for export.

Analysts said the decision indicates that the corporation wants potential foreign buyers to learn about the plane's capabilities as soon as possible so that it can secure contracts when the jet becomes operational.

A source close to AVIC who declined to be named said publication of the aircraft's specifications was aimed at impressing potential buyers.

"The earlier the buyers know about the J-31's capabilities, the higher chance AVIC has of taking up a good share of the fifth-generation aircraft market," he told China Daily.

"Once the company receives buyers' payments, it can use these to sustain the production line and continue to upgrade the aircraft to win more customers."

AVIC executives have never concealed their intentions for the J-31 project.

Li Yuhai, deputy general manager of AVIC, told reporters in November, "Since the start of the J-31's development, we have planned to use the plane to end some foreign nations' dominance of the fifth-generation fighter jet. One of its variants will be specifically designed for export."

Li was speaking on the sidelines of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition held in Zhuhai, Guangdong province.

Chen Hu, a military expert with the People's Liberation Army, said exporting the J-31 would be a milestone for China's aviation industry because the plane would give AVIC a significant boost in competition with Western defense giants.

Xu Bangnian, a professor at the PLA Air Force Command Institute, said he expected international demand for the plane as it appeared to be the only choice for developing countries wanting an affordable fifth-generation stealth aircraft.

The only fifth-generation fighter jet available on the market is the United States' Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, but the US will only sell it to its allies.

The J-31's maiden flight in October 2012 caused a surprise globally, as few people expected China to develop another fifth-generation fighter jet following the J-20 stealth aircraft, which made its first flight in January 2011. During the past three years, the J-31 has undergone several test flights and some changes have been made to its design.

The AVIC specifications show that it has a maximum takeoff weight of 25 metric tons and is designed to be in service for up to 30 years.

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## Beast

TaiShang said:


> *China will export new fighter jet*
> China Daily, October 9, 2015
> 
> China's leading aircraft manufacturer is on the verge of exporting its fifth-generation fighter jet, according to industry sources.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aviation Industry Corp of China disclosed the technical specifications of the J-31 at an aviation expo even though the plane was still being tested, the sources said.
> 
> During the four-day Aviation Expo China 2015, a biennial event held in Beijing in mid-September, AVIC also displayed a large-scale model of the J-31.
> 
> Expo visitors were surprised that the State-owned defense contractor was willing to declassify the J-31's specifications, as it had never previously released such information on military air-craft until they entered mass-production and were ready for export.
> 
> Analysts said the decision indicates that the corporation wants potential foreign buyers to learn about the plane's capabilities as soon as possible so that it can secure contracts when the jet becomes operational.
> 
> A source close to AVIC who declined to be named said publication of the aircraft's specifications was aimed at impressing potential buyers.
> 
> "The earlier the buyers know about the J-31's capabilities, the higher chance AVIC has of taking up a good share of the fifth-generation aircraft market," he told China Daily.
> 
> "Once the company receives buyers' payments, it can use these to sustain the production line and continue to upgrade the aircraft to win more customers."
> 
> AVIC executives have never concealed their intentions for the J-31 project.
> 
> Li Yuhai, deputy general manager of AVIC, told reporters in November, "Since the start of the J-31's development, we have planned to use the plane to end some foreign nations' dominance of the fifth-generation fighter jet. One of its variants will be specifically designed for export."
> 
> Li was speaking on the sidelines of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition held in Zhuhai, Guangdong province.
> 
> Chen Hu, a military expert with the People's Liberation Army, said exporting the J-31 would be a milestone for China's aviation industry because the plane would give AVIC a significant boost in competition with Western defense giants.
> 
> Xu Bangnian, a professor at the PLA Air Force Command Institute, said he expected international demand for the plane as it appeared to be the only choice for developing countries wanting an affordable fifth-generation stealth aircraft.
> 
> The only fifth-generation fighter jet available on the market is the United States' Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, but the US will only sell it to its allies.
> 
> The J-31's maiden flight in October 2012 caused a surprise globally, as few people expected China to develop another fifth-generation fighter jet following the J-20 stealth aircraft, which made its first flight in January 2011. During the past three years, the J-31 has undergone several test flights and some changes have been made to its design.
> 
> The AVIC specifications show that it has a maximum takeoff weight of 25 metric tons and is designed to be in service for up to 30 years.


Iran and Pakistan will be good customer of J-31.

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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> The appearance of a plastic toy looks like the real one. That's how they do that thing.







Maybe you can claimed this is a plastic toy too?  Sourgrape will always be sourgrape.

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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> Maybe you can claimed this is a plastic toy too?  Sourgrape will always be sourgrape.



I mean, the appearance doesn't make sense.


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## Khalid Newazi

3rd World countries aren't going to buy stealth jets, they best reveal some more information about their 4th Generation. China should reveal more about the J-10B/C variants. It can be the F-16 for countries like Bangladesh, Libya, Nigeria, Argentina.


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## Blue Marlin

China’s leading aircraft manufacturer is on the verge of exporting its fifth-generation fighter jet, according to industry sources. Aviation Industry Corp of China disclosed the technical specifications of the J-31 Gyrfalcon at an aviation expo even though the plane was still being tested, the sources said.

During the four-day Aviation Expo China 2015, a biennial event held in Beijing in mid-September, AVIC also displayed a large-scale model of the J-31. Expo visitors were surprised that the State-owned defense contractor was willing to declassify the J-31′s specifications, as it had never previously released such information on military air-craft until they entered mass-production and were ready for export.

Analysts said the decision indicates that the corporation wants potential foreign buyers to learn about the plane’s capabilities as soon as possible so that it can secure contracts when the jet becomes operational, Peoples Daily reported on Friday.

A source close to AVIC who declined to be named said publication of the aircraft’s specifications was aimed at impressing potential buyers.

“The earlier the buyers know about the J-31′s capabilities, the higher chance AVIC has of taking up a good share of the fifth-generation aircraft market,” he told China Daily.
“Once the company receives buyers’ payments, it can use these to sustain the production line and continue to upgrade the aircraft to win more customers.”

AVIC executives have never concealed their intentions for the J-31 project. Li Yuhai, deputy general manager of AVIC, told reporters, “Since the start of the J-31′s development, we have planned to use the plane to end some foreign nations’ dominance of the fifth-generation fighter jet. One of its variants will be specifically designed for export.”
Li was speaking on the sidelines of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition held in Zhuhai, Guangdong province.

Chen Hu, a military expert with the People’s Liberation Army, said exporting the J-31 would be a milestone for China’s aviation industry because the plane would give AVIC a significant boost in competition with Western defense giants.

Xu Bangnian, a professor at the PLA Air Force Command Institute, said he expected international demand for the plane as it appeared to be the only choice for developing countries wanting an affordable fifth-generation stealth aircraft.
The only fifth-generation fighter jet available on the market is the United States’ Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, but the US will only sell it to its allies.

The J-31′s maiden flight in October 2012 caused a surprise globally, as few people expected China to develop another fifth-generation fighter jet following the J-20 stealth aircraft, which made its first flight in January 2011. During the past three years, the J-31 has undergone several test flights and some changes have been made to its design.
The AVIC specifications show that it has a maximum takeoff weight of 25 metric tons and is designed to be in service for up to 30 years.





http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/201...anufacturer-poised-to-export-new-fighter-jet/

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## Deino

*Guys ... could You please take a look if a tread already exists that fits Your post ... instead of simply starting a new tread !??*

Thanks in advance,
Deino


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## Mrc

Paf shud join in on developement phase rather than just buying it off shelf


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## j20blackdragon

Beast said:


> Iran and Pakistan will be good customer of J-31.



The entire Middle East could buy FC-31 in the long run. F-35 isn't available to them.

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2015/05/13/white-house-says-f-35s-not-for-sale-to-gulf-arab-states/

South American countries like Brazil, Argentina, and Venezuela could also buy. Venezuela can pay in oil. China doesn't need hard currency.

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## Sasquatch

Beast said:


> Iran and Pakistan will be good customer of J-31.



Exports should only be allies like Pakistan and trusted customers, I don't want to see China export like Russia did with the Mig-29 to everyone. 

@cirr when will the 2.0 version be revealed ?


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## Beast

Hu Songshan said:


> Exports should only be allies like Pakistan and trusted customers, I don't want to see China export like Russia did with the Mig-29 to everyone.
> 
> @cirr when will the 2.0 version be revealed ?


J-31 is a downgraded version of J-20. I don't think too much will be compromised. From the marketing show, it seems to have no restriction.

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## Sasquatch

Beast said:


> J-31 is a downgraded version of J-20. I don't think too much will be compromised. From the marketing show, it seems to have no restriction.



I'm aware of that but I still don't want it exported like the Mig-29, exporting it to middle eastern countries is bad. Remember now Russian weapons have gotten a bad rep because Arab incompetence, I wouldn't be surprised if Israel destroyed these while they were on the ground like 1967 or air combat like 1982 .

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## Beast

Hu Songshan said:


> I'm aware of that but I still don't want it exported like the Mig-29, exporting it to middle eastern countries is bad. Remember now Russian weapons have gotten a bad rep because Arab incompetence, I wouldn't be surprised if Israel destroyed these while they were on the ground like 1967 or air combat like 1982 .


That didn't stop US from selling saudi M1A1 tank which were knock out easily by houthi rebels. And Russian still is the largest export of weapon after US.

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## Sasquatch

Beast said:


> That didn't stop US from selling saudi M1A1 tank which were knock out easily by houthi rebels. And Russian still is the largest export of weapon after US.



Russia needs cash, the US gives Saudi Arabia arms because it props up the petro dollars, China is in no short of money and we can find better export customers.

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## Blue Marlin

Hu Songshan said:


> Exports should only be allies like Pakistan and trusted customers, I don't want to see China export like Russia did with the Mig-29 to everyone.
> 
> @cirr when will the 2.0 version be revealed ?


i think what you mean is that, you will only sell the jet to countries that are your allies and can look after them selfs.

i can't imagine this jet being exported to no less than 6 countries max. pakistan, iran, Indonesia, and possibly SCO countries, which is likely. but pakistan is guarantied.


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## j20blackdragon

Hu Songshan said:


> Russia needs cash, the US gives Saudi Arabia arms because it props up the petro dollars, China is in no short of money and we can find better export customers.



China should sell the FC-31 to the Arabs precisely because the petro-dollar monopoly needs to end.

It's time to establish the petro-yuan.

The Pentagon has already confirmed that there will be no F-35 sales to the Gulf region in the near term.

No near-term F-35 sales in Gulf region: Pentagon| Reuters

This is China's opportunity to take this market share.

UAE and Saudi Arabia have money. Even Egypt has money to buy Rafale.

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## Blue Marlin

j20blackdragon said:


> China should sell the FC-31 to the Arabs precisely because the petro-dollar monopoly needs to end.
> 
> It's time to establish the petro-yuan.
> 
> The Pentagon has already confirmed that there will be no F-35 sales to the Gulf region in the near term.
> 
> No near-term F-35 sales in Gulf region: Pentagon| Reuters
> 
> This is China's opportunity to take this market share.
> 
> UAE and Saudi Arabia have money. Even Egypt has money to buy Rafale.


arab countries cant be trusted, they will allow US and european countries to inspect the plane and steal your tech, regardless of who's tech is better.

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## S. Martin

SinoChallenger said:


> PS...... never seen a PLAAF fighter with tail fins painted like that



It's funny to look back the early "PS" comments when the J31 pictures shew up firt time.

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## AsianLion

*China's Super Weapons: Beware the J-20 and J-31 Stealth Fighters*

Throughout its history, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) has lagged behind the aerial programs of other world powers such as the United States. Now, the PRC has set its sights on producing indigenously designed “fifth generation” fighter jets comparable to the US F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. Many U.S. officials and pilots suspect that the Chinese have been using hacked U.S. technology to aid their indigenous development programs. The PRC is also leveraging additive manufacturing technology (better known as 3D-printing) in order to increase speed and efficiency in manufacturing aircrafts and compete with the U.S. The J-20 Black Eagle could be fully operational by 2018, and a second model, the J-31 Gyrfalcon, by 2020. If true, China’s new generation of fighters could have a substantial impact on its ability to either defend what it considers to be sovereign airspace, or to mount an aerial offensive in a wartime scenario, particularly against Taiwan (ROC). 

*Recent Advances in the PLAAF*

Between 1990 and 1992 the PRC purchased 24 Su-27 Flankers from Russia and slightly modified the design to become the J-11 Flanker B+. In response, the U.S. sold 150 F-16 Fighting Falcons to Taiwan. The acquisition of fourth generation Su-27s allowed China’s Air Force to enter modernity, and they have become progressively more capable ever since. In 2010, half of the PLAAF fleet still consisted of jets modeled after 1950s and 1960s Soviet MiG-19 Farmers and MiG-21 Fishbeds, but China’s ability to project air power has increased significantly within the past 5 years. Recently, the PRC and Russia have nearly completed a deal to transfer 24 Russian Su-35 Super Flankers, a potent “generation 4++” fighter, to the Chinese, in addition to China’s scheduled integration of fifth generation technology.

Currently the PLAAF relies on the J-11 as its primary fighter. However, this model is largely unproven. This aircraft is perhaps most recognized as the fighter variant involved in an August 2014 incident in which a single J-11 intercepted a USN P-8A Poseidon surveillance aircraft 135 miles east of Hainan Island. Twice the J-11 came within 50 yards of the U.S. aircraft. The aggressive maneuvering by the Chinese pilot was an example of the PLAAF making it clear that U.S. surveillance is not appreciated within the airspace over its exclusive economic zone (EEZ).

*Fifth Generation Capabilities*

Since 2008 the PRC has worked to design and manufacture fifth generation concepts, both for its own use and to sell on a global scale. Two companies in China have worked on designs: the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (J-20) and the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (J-31). Both are subsidiaries of the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC). It is likely that the J-20 and J-31 will complement one another when integrated into the PLAAF’s arsenal. The J-20 is closer to becoming operational, with an inaugural test flight in 2011; it is expected to reach initial operating capability (IOC) by 2018. Because both jets are still in prototype stage, their exact capabilities are not certain. However, it is speculated that the J-20 will provide a long-range strike system capable of reaching anywhere in the Western Pacific region, and incorporate a stealth design; the first of its kind in the PRC. In a conflict, the J-20 would likely be deployed in air-to-air combat with the mission of limiting the enemy’s radar coverage and strike range. The J-31 could be a potent complement to the J-20, similar to the planned U.S. partnership of the F-22 and F-35. While the J-20 is expected to possess superior dogfighting abilities, the J-31 will be “the perfect fighter for the PLA to carry out anti-access area-denial (A2AD) strategies in the Western Pacific”. The J-20 is slightly faster, with a maximum speed of Mach 2.5compared to Mach 2 for the J-31. Both sport a combat radius of approximately 2000km (1242 miles).

U.S. officials believe that the J-31 will immediately match or exceed the capabilities of U.S. fourth generation fighters such as the F-15 Strike Eagle and F/A-18 Super Hornet, and could possibly even compete with the F-22 or F-35. But this would largely depend on several factors including the quality of Chinese pilots, the quantity of fighters produced, and the reliability of radar and other equipment on board. In late 2014, AVIC President Lin Zhouming made an even bolder prediction, saying, “When [the J-31] takes to the sky, it could definitely take down the F-35. It's a certainty.” Even if neither of the Chinese fighter jets is entirely up to par with U.S. fifth-gens, they still could drastically change the dynamic of both a conflict with the U.S. or a scenario such as an invasion of Taiwan.

*Implications*

If the PRC decided to launch an attack across the Taiwan Strait, a contingency that it practices every year, air superiority would be essential for three reasons: the relatively small amount of airspace available over Taiwan; the ROC Air Force’s (ROCAF) ability to saturate its airspace with its own fighters, and the ROC's extensive surface-to-air missile defense system. If the PLAAF is unable to prevent or significantly limit attacks against its naval vessels when crossing the Strait, the mission would almost certainly fail. Ultimately, the PRC’s accumulation of cutting-edge fighter technology could provide the critical air advantage over the ROCAF to carry out a successful invasion, and should be cause for concern at the strategic, operational, and tactical levels of war for the U.S. 

_This piece first appeared on Project 2049’s blog AsiaEye here. _

China's Super Weapons: Beware the J-20 and J-31 Stealth Fighters | The National Interest Blog

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## kungfugymnast

AsianUnion said:


> *China's Super Weapons: Beware the J-20 and J-31 Stealth Fighters*
> 
> Throughout its history, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) has lagged behind the aerial programs of other world powers such as the United States. Now, the PRC has set its sights on producing indigenously designed “fifth generation” fighter jets comparable to the US F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II. Many U.S. officials and pilots suspect that the Chinese have been using hacked U.S. technology to aid their indigenous development programs. The PRC is also leveraging additive manufacturing technology (better known as 3D-printing) in order to increase speed and efficiency in manufacturing aircrafts and compete with the U.S. The J-20 Black Eagle could be fully operational by 2018, and a second model, the J-31 Gyrfalcon, by 2020. If true, China’s new generation of fighters could have a substantial impact on its ability to either defend what it considers to be sovereign airspace, or to mount an aerial offensive in a wartime scenario, particularly against Taiwan (ROC).
> 
> *Recent Advances in the PLAAF*
> 
> Between 1990 and 1992 the PRC purchased 24 Su-27 Flankers from Russia and slightly modified the design to become the J-11 Flanker B+. In response, the U.S. sold 150 F-16 Fighting Falcons to Taiwan. The acquisition of fourth generation Su-27s allowed China’s Air Force to enter modernity, and they have become progressively more capable ever since. In 2010, half of the PLAAF fleet still consisted of jets modeled after 1950s and 1960s Soviet MiG-19 Farmers and MiG-21 Fishbeds, but China’s ability to project air power has increased significantly within the past 5 years. Recently, the PRC and Russia have nearly completed a deal to transfer 24 Russian Su-35 Super Flankers, a potent “generation 4++” fighter, to the Chinese, in addition to China’s scheduled integration of fifth generation technology.
> 
> Currently the PLAAF relies on the J-11 as its primary fighter. However, this model is largely unproven. This aircraft is perhaps most recognized as the fighter variant involved in an August 2014 incident in which a single J-11 intercepted a USN P-8A Poseidon surveillance aircraft 135 miles east of Hainan Island. Twice the J-11 came within 50 yards of the U.S. aircraft. The aggressive maneuvering by the Chinese pilot was an example of the PLAAF making it clear that U.S. surveillance is not appreciated within the airspace over its exclusive economic zone (EEZ).
> 
> *Fifth Generation Capabilities*
> 
> Since 2008 the PRC has worked to design and manufacture fifth generation concepts, both for its own use and to sell on a global scale. Two companies in China have worked on designs: the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (J-20) and the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (J-31). Both are subsidiaries of the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC). It is likely that the J-20 and J-31 will complement one another when integrated into the PLAAF’s arsenal. The J-20 is closer to becoming operational, with an inaugural test flight in 2011; it is expected to reach initial operating capability (IOC) by 2018. Because both jets are still in prototype stage, their exact capabilities are not certain. However, it is speculated that the J-20 will provide a long-range strike system capable of reaching anywhere in the Western Pacific region, and incorporate a stealth design; the first of its kind in the PRC. In a conflict, the J-20 would likely be deployed in air-to-air combat with the mission of limiting the enemy’s radar coverage and strike range. The J-31 could be a potent complement to the J-20, similar to the planned U.S. partnership of the F-22 and F-35. While the J-20 is expected to possess superior dogfighting abilities, the J-31 will be “the perfect fighter for the PLA to carry out anti-access area-denial (A2AD) strategies in the Western Pacific”. The J-20 is slightly faster, with a maximum speed of Mach 2.5compared to Mach 2 for the J-31. Both sport a combat radius of approximately 2000km (1242 miles).
> 
> U.S. officials believe that the J-31 will immediately match or exceed the capabilities of U.S. fourth generation fighters such as the F-15 Strike Eagle and F/A-18 Super Hornet, and could possibly even compete with the F-22 or F-35. But this would largely depend on several factors including the quality of Chinese pilots, the quantity of fighters produced, and the reliability of radar and other equipment on board. In late 2014, AVIC President Lin Zhouming made an even bolder prediction, saying, “When [the J-31] takes to the sky, it could definitely take down the F-35. It's a certainty.” Even if neither of the Chinese fighter jets is entirely up to par with U.S. fifth-gens, they still could drastically change the dynamic of both a conflict with the U.S. or a scenario such as an invasion of Taiwan.
> 
> *Implications*
> 
> If the PRC decided to launch an attack across the Taiwan Strait, a contingency that it practices every year, air superiority would be essential for three reasons: the relatively small amount of airspace available over Taiwan; the ROC Air Force’s (ROCAF) ability to saturate its airspace with its own fighters, and the ROC's extensive surface-to-air missile defense system. If the PLAAF is unable to prevent or significantly limit attacks against its naval vessels when crossing the Strait, the mission would almost certainly fail. Ultimately, the PRC’s accumulation of cutting-edge fighter technology could provide the critical air advantage over the ROCAF to carry out a successful invasion, and should be cause for concern at the strategic, operational, and tactical levels of war for the U.S.
> 
> _This piece first appeared on Project 2049’s blog AsiaEye here. _
> 
> China's Super Weapons: Beware the J-20 and J-31 Stealth Fighters | The National Interest Blog



China is not interested to take over Taiwan anymore. Not Japan & South Korea neither, these countries don't have rich resources like fuel, metal, etc. China only needed the Spratlys and Diaoyu island. that are believed to have rich natural resources and are strategic locations. China stealth fighters are meant for self defense and to protect itself from American forces should war erupt over international waters such as Spratlys where America been hoping for its closest ally to get the islands allowing American to get mining contract. The J20 and J31 might not superior than F-22 and F-35 but could perform well without involving high cost with focus more on range and payloads. 

If F-22 and F-35 are fuel guzzling very expensive sports cars with expensive maintenance,China J-20/31 are more of practical cars that have great performance and handling with easy reasonable maintenance.


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## Knight Rider

Blue Marlin said:


> View attachment 263513
> 
> China’s leading aircraft manufacturer is on the verge of exporting its fifth-generation fighter jet, according to industry sources. Aviation Industry Corp of China disclosed the technical specifications of the J-31 Gyrfalcon at an aviation expo even though the plane was still being tested, the sources said.
> 
> During the four-day Aviation Expo China 2015, a biennial event held in Beijing in mid-September, AVIC also displayed a large-scale model of the J-31. Expo visitors were surprised that the State-owned defense contractor was willing to declassify the J-31′s specifications, as it had never previously released such information on military air-craft until they entered mass-production and were ready for export.
> 
> Analysts said the decision indicates that the corporation wants potential foreign buyers to learn about the plane’s capabilities as soon as possible so that it can secure contracts when the jet becomes operational, Peoples Daily reported on Friday.
> 
> A source close to AVIC who declined to be named said publication of the aircraft’s specifications was aimed at impressing potential buyers.
> 
> “The earlier the buyers know about the J-31′s capabilities, the higher chance AVIC has of taking up a good share of the fifth-generation aircraft market,” he told China Daily.
> “Once the company receives buyers’ payments, it can use these to sustain the production line and continue to upgrade the aircraft to win more customers.”
> 
> 
> AVIC executives have never concealed their intentions for the J-31 project. Li Yuhai, deputy general manager of AVIC, told reporters, “Since the start of the J-31′s development, we have planned to use the plane to end some foreign nations’ dominance of the fifth-generation fighter jet. One of its variants will be specifically designed for export.”
> Li was speaking on the sidelines of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition held in Zhuhai, Guangdong province.
> 
> Chen Hu, a military expert with the People’s Liberation Army, said exporting the J-31 would be a milestone for China’s aviation industry because the plane would give AVIC a significant boost in competition with Western defense giants.
> 
> Xu Bangnian, a professor at the PLA Air Force Command Institute, said he expected international demand for the plane as it appeared to be the only choice for developing countries wanting an affordable fifth-generation stealth aircraft.
> The only fifth-generation fighter jet available on the market is the United States’ Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, but the US will only sell it to its allies.
> 
> The J-31′s maiden flight in October 2012 caused a surprise globally, as few people expected China to develop another fifth-generation fighter jet following the J-20 stealth aircraft, which made its first flight in January 2011. During the past three years, the J-31 has undergone several test flights and some changes have been made to its design.
> The AVIC specifications show that it has a maximum takeoff weight of 25 metric tons and is designed to be in service for up to 30 years.
> 
> View attachment 263514
> 
> http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/201...anufacturer-poised-to-export-new-fighter-jet/



Pakistan have placed an order of 30 to 40 FC-31 IN 2014.


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## Blue Marlin

Knight Rider said:


> Pakistan have placed an order of 30 to 40 FC-31 IN 2014.


ok


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## BoQ77

Knight Rider said:


> Pakistan have placed an order of 30 to 40 FC-31 IN 2014.



If PAF want another design with third party engine, it's their choice. If I were them, the replacement of engine on JF-17 is a good sign before any order.


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## Knight Rider

Blue Marlin said:


> ok



Read article ......

Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360


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## Blue Marlin

Knight Rider said:


> Read article ......
> 
> Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360


i was one of the first people to read it. i get email alerts. it only means pakistan is serious about the j31 nothing else.wait 5 years for actual results

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## Knight Rider

Blue Marlin said:


> i was one of the first people to read it. i get email alerts. it only means pakistan is serious about the j31 nothing else.wait 5 years for actual results



Yes !!! I am also Saying the same thing that Pakistan is interested in FC-31s.


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## Blue Marlin

Knight Rider said:


> Yes !!! I am also Saying the same thing that Pakistan is interested in FC-31s.


you said pakistan placed an order. there is a difference between order and interest.
pakistan was interested in the eft, it doesn't mean they ordered it.


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## Knight Rider

Blue Marlin said:


> you said Pakistan placed an order. there is a difference between order and interest.
> Pakistan was interested in the eft, it doesn't mean they ordered it.



The media reports are saying wrong they should write that *Pakistan is interested in FC-31s* they should not write that *Pakistan is going to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s*.

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## BoQ77

Knight Rider said:


> The media reports are saying wrong they should write that *Pakistan is interested in FC-31s* they should not write that *Pakistan is going to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s*.



Yes. Pak isn't going to buy an aircraft project could be cancelled anytime.


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## kungfugymnast

Blue Marlin said:


> i was one of the first people to read it. i get email alerts. it only means pakistan is serious about the j31 nothing else.wait 5 years for actual results



J31 stood higher chance against su30mki and next IAF new fighters that could be either rafale, ef2000 or su-35S. For conventional fighter, the f16s would do. J10C will be cheap alternative to complete their fighters inventory should the j31 too pricey


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## BoQ77

kungfugymnast said:


> J31 stood higher chance against su30mki and next IAF new fighters that could be either rafale, ef2000 or su-35S. For conventional fighter, the f16s would do. J10C will be cheap alternative to complete their fighters inventory should the j31 too pricey



This November, let's wait. 154 of FGFA. It's not bad news.
India Russia might sign contract for 154 FGFA this november

And the news for F-18 and new aircraft carrier with American tech


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## Beast

New J-31 take off from chengdu

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## Deino

Interesting !


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## Muhammad Omar

Beast said:


> New J-31 take off from chengdu
> View attachment 268037



is it the new version that was showed in Zuhai Air Show?


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## Sanchez

It seems that J-31 project is getting more kicks and supports.

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## Beast

Muhammad Omar said:


> is it the new version that was showed in Zuhai Air Show?


It shall be. Cannot comfimed is the new model show for export but definitely new pt.

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## Muhammad Omar

Beast said:


> It shall be. Cannot comfimed is the new model show for export but definitely new pt.



that's awesome... waiting to see more pics soon


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## Akasa

It looks nothing like the improved model of the FC-31 that was unveiled at the airshow.


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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> It looks nothing like the improved model of the FC-31 that was unveiled at the airshow.


We need better pic and hope they are testing out new WS-13A engine.


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## BoQ77

SinoSoldier said:


> It looks nothing like the improved model of the FC-31 that was unveiled at the airshow.



Even a new session of unchanged prototype.
who can tell.
maybe we need an insider info.

anyway, lack of the interest of plaaf or any potential buyer is the big threat to this project. means no big money for it.


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## Deino

Ohh come on ! How on earth would any one expect the new prototype first seen at CAC and even more can be so stupid to deduct a lack of interest from the PLAAF of this event !???

I really don't get it....


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## Akasa

Improved variant?

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## pkd

*AVIC Begins FC-31 Export Drive*

China’s Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) has stated plans to fly a production version of its FC-31 Gyrfalcon fifth-generation fighter by 2019.

Although reluctant to take questions, company officials also stated they are in negotiations with the Chinese government to offer the aircraft to the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force, despite previous reports that the fighter would only be offered for export.

Speaking in Dubai, where the company is displaying a model of the FC-31 outside China for the first time as the company begins the export push for the Gyrfalcon, Li Yuhai, deputy general manager at AVIC, said the aircraft was demonstrating the “technological and management progress” of the program.

Lin Peng, the FC-31’s chief designer, hinted that the company was looking for an international partner for the aircraft rather than the relationship it has with Pakistan’s Aeronautical Complex on the JF-17. He said that international customers would be able to customize their aircraft in terms of communication systems, sensors and weapons, something that would likely only be done outside China.

He added that the aircraft would be low-observable against a number of multi-spectrum sensors, and claimed the aircraft would be stealthy against L-band and Ku-band radars.

Peng said the aircraft’s primary armament would be the PL-9 short-range missile, the SD-10A medium-range air-to-air missile and small diameter bombs. He said the aircraft would be able to carry 2,000 kg (4,400 lb.) of weapons in its single internal bay and 6,000 kg (13,220 lb.) externally.

The company would not say which engine would power production aircraft but that it would be a “advanced medium thrust engine” producing 88.29 kN. (20,000 lb./9,000 kg) of thrust. The demonstrator aircraft is currently powered by the Russian RD-93 which powers the Mikoyan MiG-29.

With a first flight planned for 2019, an initial operating capability would occur some time in 2022/23 and the aircraft would become fully operationally capable two years later.

AVIC Begins FC-31 Export Drive | Dubai Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week

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## aliaselin

pkd said:


> *AVIC Begins FC-31 Export Drive*
> 
> China’s Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) has stated plans to fly a production version of its FC-31 Gyrfalcon fifth-generation fighter by 2019.
> 
> Although reluctant to take questions, company officials also stated they are in negotiations with the Chinese government to offer the aircraft to the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force, despite previous reports that the fighter would only be offered for export.
> 
> Speaking in Dubai, where the company is displaying a model of the FC-31 outside China for the first time as the company begins the export push for the Gyrfalcon, Li Yuhai, deputy general manager at AVIC, said the aircraft was demonstrating the “technological and management progress” of the program.
> 
> Lin Peng, the FC-31’s chief designer, hinted that the company was looking for an international partner for the aircraft rather than the relationship it has with Pakistan’s Aeronautical Complex on the JF-17. He said that international customers would be able to customize their aircraft in terms of communication systems, sensors and weapons, something that would likely only be done outside China.
> 
> He added that the aircraft would be low-observable against a number of multi-spectrum sensors, and claimed the aircraft would be stealthy against L-band and Ku-band radars.
> 
> Peng said the aircraft’s primary armament would be the PL-9 short-range missile, the SD-10A medium-range air-to-air missile and small diameter bombs. He said the aircraft would be able to carry 2,000 kg (4,400 lb.) of weapons in its single internal bay and 6,000 kg (13,220 lb.) externally.
> 
> The company would not say which engine would power production aircraft but that it would be a “advanced medium thrust engine” producing 88.29 kN. (20,000 lb./9,000 kg) of thrust. The demonstrator aircraft is currently powered by the Russian RD-93 which powers the Mikoyan MiG-29.
> 
> With a first flight planned for 2019, an initial operating capability would occur some time in 2022/23 and the aircraft would become fully operationally capable two years later.
> 
> AVIC Begins FC-31 Export Drive | Dubai Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week


How stupid! PL9 and SD10A can not be fitted into the bay!


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## kurutoga

aliaselin said:


> How stupid! PL9 and SD10A can not be fitted into the bay!


That is actually not a huge problem. The key is if future missiles are designed to fit this jet. It will not be on the market until at least 7, 8 years later.


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## cirr

aliaselin said:


> How stupid! PL9 and SD10A can not be fitted into the bay!



Looks like China isn't gonna export the PL10 and PL15 any time soon。

The following report in Chinese，as usual，is far more informative：

中航：歼31战机经一年改进 性能获实质飞跃(图)

2015年11月09日 　来源：环球网






　　2015迪拜航展中航工业展台展出的鹘鹰隐身战机






　　中国空军副司令张洪贺（右）莅临中航工业展台参观指导

　　11月8日，第14届迪拜国际航展首日，中航工业召开新闻发布会，首次在海外推出中国自主研发的第四代先进多用途战斗机“鹘鹰”。此次“鹘鹰”战机亮相迪拜航展，是继2014年中国珠海航展进行飞行表演、静态模型展示之后，首次走出国门、参加国际大型综合性航展，成为迪拜航展的一大亮点。

　　发布会现场，飞机总设计师林鹏简要介绍了“鹘鹰”战机，作为主导未来战场的最新型多用途战斗机，“鹘鹰”战机具有高生存力的特点，包括低可探测性以及优异的电子对抗性能;其多任务能力能够施展强大的目标探测和外部信息综合，可实现超视距多目标攻击和大离轴角全向攻击。“鹘鹰”战机推进系统采用两台高性能小涵道比涡扇发动机，具有较强的内埋及外挂能力，可挂装中国或国外多种先进的空空、空面武器，并配装1门航炮。此外，“鹘鹰”战机还具有优异的综合保障能力和高性价比。

　　中航工业副总经理李玉海表示，“鹘鹰”战机的成功展出具有三个层面的重要意义。一是在国家“一带一路”建设的战略指引下，中航工业作为中国航空制造旗帜，愿意同“一带一路”涵盖的国家和地区交流所取得的成绩，实现技术的互动和经济的互通;二是“鹘鹰”战机是一款我国自主研发的处于在研阶段的第四代中型多用途战斗机，从2014年珠海航展飞跃到2015年迪拜航展，经过一年的改进提升，在性能、平台和系统等诸多方面得以完善，真正实现了实质性“飞跃”;三是“鹘鹰”战机亮相迪拜航展彰显了中国航空制造能力的坚定信心，其背后是整个国家的制造实力提升和国民经济发展，标志着中国航空武器装备出口正打破传统市场格局，迈向国际高端航空装备军贸平台，完成了从常规装备向先进战机的跨代式转变。

　　迪拜航展现场，国内外主流专业媒体对“鹘鹰”战机的参展表现出浓厚兴趣，在中航工业展台静态展示的缩比“鹘鹰”战机模型也成为观众拍照留影的热门展品。

中航：歼31战机经一年改进 性能获实质飞跃(图)-中新网

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## BoQ77

SinoSoldier said:


> Improved variant?
> View attachment 270297



A CGI of KFX

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Looks like China isn't gonna export the PL10 and PL15 any time soon。
> 
> The following report in Chinese，as usual，is far more informative：
> 
> 中航：歼31战机经一年改进 性能获实质飞跃(图)
> 
> 2015年11月09日 　来源：环球网
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2015迪拜航展中航工业展台展出的鹘鹰隐身战机
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 中国空军副司令张洪贺（右）莅临中航工业展台参观指导
> 
> 11月8日，第14届迪拜国际航展首日，中航工业召开新闻发布会，首次在海外推出中国自主研发的第四代先进多用途战斗机“鹘鹰”。此次“鹘鹰”战机亮相迪拜航展，是继2014年中国珠海航展进行飞行表演、静态模型展示之后，首次走出国门、参加国际大型综合性航展，成为迪拜航展的一大亮点。
> 
> 发布会现场，飞机总设计师林鹏简要介绍了“鹘鹰”战机，作为主导未来战场的最新型多用途战斗机，“鹘鹰”战机具有高生存力的特点，包括低可探测性以及优异的电子对抗性能;其多任务能力能够施展强大的目标探测和外部信息综合，可实现超视距多目标攻击和大离轴角全向攻击。“鹘鹰”战机推进系统采用两台高性能小涵道比涡扇发动机，具有较强的内埋及外挂能力，可挂装中国或国外多种先进的空空、空面武器，并配装1门航炮。此外，“鹘鹰”战机还具有优异的综合保障能力和高性价比。
> 
> 中航工业副总经理李玉海表示，“鹘鹰”战机的成功展出具有三个层面的重要意义。一是在国家“一带一路”建设的战略指引下，中航工业作为中国航空制造旗帜，愿意同“一带一路”涵盖的国家和地区交流所取得的成绩，实现技术的互动和经济的互通;二是“鹘鹰”战机是一款我国自主研发的处于在研阶段的第四代中型多用途战斗机，从2014年珠海航展飞跃到2015年迪拜航展，经过一年的改进提升，在性能、平台和系统等诸多方面得以完善，真正实现了实质性“飞跃”;三是“鹘鹰”战机亮相迪拜航展彰显了中国航空制造能力的坚定信心，其背后是整个国家的制造实力提升和国民经济发展，标志着中国航空武器装备出口正打破传统市场格局，迈向国际高端航空装备军贸平台，完成了从常规装备向先进战机的跨代式转变。
> 
> 迪拜航展现场，国内外主流专业媒体对“鹘鹰”战机的参展表现出浓厚兴趣，在中航工业展台静态展示的缩比“鹘鹰”战机模型也成为观众拍照留影的热门展品。
> 
> 中航：歼31战机经一年改进 性能获实质飞跃(图)-中新网



Short summary?


----------



## Blue Marlin

SinoSoldier said:


> Improved variant?
> View attachment 270297


on the bottom right it clearly states that is just a design "CAD". i don't think the manufacturer will publish pictures of the j-31 on the internet.
i personally like the yf-23 as a good design for a fighter



cirr said:


> Looks like China isn't gonna export the PL10 and PL15 any time soon。
> 
> The following report in Chinese，as usual，is far more informative：
> 
> 中航：歼31战机经一年改进 性能获实质飞跃(图)
> 
> 2015年11月09日 　来源：环球网
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2015迪拜航展中航工业展台展出的鹘鹰隐身战机
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 中国空军副司令张洪贺（右）莅临中航工业展台参观指导
> 
> 11月8日，第14届迪拜国际航展首日，中航工业召开新闻发布会，首次在海外推出中国自主研发的第四代先进多用途战斗机“鹘鹰”。此次“鹘鹰”战机亮相迪拜航展，是继2014年中国珠海航展进行飞行表演、静态模型展示之后，首次走出国门、参加国际大型综合性航展，成为迪拜航展的一大亮点。
> 
> 发布会现场，飞机总设计师林鹏简要介绍了“鹘鹰”战机，作为主导未来战场的最新型多用途战斗机，“鹘鹰”战机具有高生存力的特点，包括低可探测性以及优异的电子对抗性能;其多任务能力能够施展强大的目标探测和外部信息综合，可实现超视距多目标攻击和大离轴角全向攻击。“鹘鹰”战机推进系统采用两台高性能小涵道比涡扇发动机，具有较强的内埋及外挂能力，可挂装中国或国外多种先进的空空、空面武器，并配装1门航炮。此外，“鹘鹰”战机还具有优异的综合保障能力和高性价比。
> 
> 中航工业副总经理李玉海表示，“鹘鹰”战机的成功展出具有三个层面的重要意义。一是在国家“一带一路”建设的战略指引下，中航工业作为中国航空制造旗帜，愿意同“一带一路”涵盖的国家和地区交流所取得的成绩，实现技术的互动和经济的互通;二是“鹘鹰”战机是一款我国自主研发的处于在研阶段的第四代中型多用途战斗机，从2014年珠海航展飞跃到2015年迪拜航展，经过一年的改进提升，在性能、平台和系统等诸多方面得以完善，真正实现了实质性“飞跃”;三是“鹘鹰”战机亮相迪拜航展彰显了中国航空制造能力的坚定信心，其背后是整个国家的制造实力提升和国民经济发展，标志着中国航空武器装备出口正打破传统市场格局，迈向国际高端航空装备军贸平台，完成了从常规装备向先进战机的跨代式转变。
> 
> 迪拜航展现场，国内外主流专业媒体对“鹘鹰”战机的参展表现出浓厚兴趣，在中航工业展台静态展示的缩比“鹘鹰”战机模型也成为观众拍照留影的热门展品。
> 
> 中航：歼31战机经一年改进 性能获实质飞跃(图)-中新网


i prefer it when its in english:
here it is
The Chinese Air Force Deputy Commander Zhang Hong-ha (right) of the aviation industry in the booth to visit and guidance

on 8 November, the 14th Dubai International Exhibition on the first day of the aviation industry held a news conference for the first time in the overseas Launch China homegrown fourth generation advanced multi-purpose fighter "Kitty Hawk" will. The "Kitty Hawk" aircraft debut in Dubai Air Show, following the 2014 China Zhuhai Air Show show, static models for the first time in this country, participating in international large-scale comprehensive exhibition, Dubai Air Show.

Briefing, Chief Architect LIN PENG aircraft provides a brief introduction to Kitty Hawk fighter, will act as the lead battlefields of the future state-of-the-art multi-purpose fighter, "Kitty Hawk" aircraft will have the characteristics of the survival of high, including low detectability and excellent electronic confrontational energy; its multi-tasking capabilities to create powerful Target Detection and external information that enables over-the-horizon more targeted attacks and large off-axis angle omnidirectional attacks. The "Kitty Hawk" aircraft will advance the system with two high-performance by small turbine engine fan, than with strong buried by attaching an external capacity and to mount a China or abroad for a number of state-of-the-art air-to-air, air-weapons, and with 1 guns. In addition, the "Kitty Hawk" aircraft will also has excellent capacity and the comprehensive safeguards high performance price ratio.

In the aviation industry vice president Lee Yuk-hoi, said that the "Kitty Hawk" aircraft to the success of the exhibition has three levels of importance. One is the "one country with a route-building strategies under the guidance of the aviation industry in china aerospace manufacturing banner and is willing to work together with all the way down to the "one" covers the countries and regions with the exchange of the results which have been achieved in implementing the technology of interaction and the exchange of economic; the second is the "Kitty Hawk" aircraft will is a My homegrown stage in R&D is a fourth-generation fighter, multipurpose medium from 2014 Zhuhai Air Show Leap Year 2015 Dubai Air Show, after a year of improvement in performance, raise platform and system can be perfected, the actual realization of a substantive "Feiyue"; the third is "Kitty Hawk" aircraft debut in Dubai Air Show recounts the Chinese aircraft manufacturing capacity of the firm confidence behind the whole countries manufacturing raise and the development of the national economy, which shows that China Aviation export weapons and equipment are breaking down traditional market pattern, progress toward the international high-end equipment military trade platform, from the general equipment to sophisticated fighters cross-generation change.

The Dubai Air Show live at home and abroad for the Mainstream professional media to Hawk" aircraft exhibitors show great interest in the aviation industry booth static display of zoom than "Kitty Hawk" aircraft model will also become popular visitors to take a picture of the exhibits.

Cnac: 31 fighter planes in a substantial performance improvement (figure) - in the quantum leap in the new Web

SAC FC-31 Stealth Aircraft Development | News & Discussions. | Page 128 source:


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## Akasa

Blue Marlin said:


> on the bottom right it clearly states that is just a design "CAD". i don't think the manufacturer will publish pictures of the j-31 on the internet.
> i personally like the yf-23 as a good design for a fighter



Of course it's a CAD, but it just so happens that it was from a military "insider" whose "artwork" has a tendency to become reality.



Blue Marlin said:


> i prefer it when its in english:
> here it is
> The Chinese Air Force Deputy Commander Zhang Hong-ha (right) of the aviation industry in the booth to visit and guidance
> 
> on 8 November, the 14th Dubai International Exhibition on the first day of the aviation industry held a news conference for the first time in the overseas Launch China homegrown fourth generation advanced multi-purpose fighter "Kitty Hawk" will. The "Kitty Hawk" aircraft debut in Dubai Air Show, following the 2014 China Zhuhai Air Show show, static models for the first time in this country, participating in international large-scale comprehensive exhibition, Dubai Air Show.
> 
> Briefing, Chief Architect LIN PENG aircraft provides a brief introduction to Kitty Hawk fighter, will act as the lead battlefields of the future state-of-the-art multi-purpose fighter, "Kitty Hawk" aircraft will have the characteristics of the survival of high, including low detectability and excellent electronic confrontational energy; its multi-tasking capabilities to create powerful Target Detection and external information that enables over-the-horizon more targeted attacks and large off-axis angle omnidirectional attacks. The "Kitty Hawk" aircraft will advance the system with two high-performance by small turbine engine fan, than with strong buried by attaching an external capacity and to mount a China or abroad for a number of state-of-the-art air-to-air, air-weapons, and with 1 guns. In addition, the "Kitty Hawk" aircraft will also has excellent capacity and the comprehensive safeguards high performance price ratio.
> 
> In the aviation industry vice president Lee Yuk-hoi, said that the "Kitty Hawk" aircraft to the success of the exhibition has three levels of importance. One is the "one country with a route-building strategies under the guidance of the aviation industry in china aerospace manufacturing banner and is willing to work together with all the way down to the "one" covers the countries and regions with the exchange of the results which have been achieved in implementing the technology of interaction and the exchange of economic; the second is the "Kitty Hawk" aircraft will is a My homegrown stage in R&D is a fourth-generation fighter, multipurpose medium from 2014 Zhuhai Air Show Leap Year 2015 Dubai Air Show, after a year of improvement in performance, raise platform and system can be perfected, the actual realization of a substantive "Feiyue"; the third is "Kitty Hawk" aircraft debut in Dubai Air Show recounts the Chinese aircraft manufacturing capacity of the firm confidence behind the whole countries manufacturing raise and the development of the national economy, which shows that China Aviation export weapons and equipment are breaking down traditional market pattern, progress toward the international high-end equipment military trade platform, from the general equipment to sophisticated fighters cross-generation change.
> 
> The Dubai Air Show live at home and abroad for the Mainstream professional media to Hawk" aircraft exhibitors show great interest in the aviation industry booth static display of zoom than "Kitty Hawk" aircraft model will also become popular visitors to take a picture of the exhibits.
> 
> Cnac: 31 fighter planes in a substantial performance improvement (figure) - in the quantum leap in the new Web
> 
> SAC FC-31 Stealth Aircraft Development | News & Discussions. | Page 128 source:



Google Translate is about as close to English as Icarus is to the sun.


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## Blue Marlin

SinoSoldier said:


> Of course it's a CAD, but it just so happens that it was from a military "insider" whose "artwork" has a tendency to become reality.
> 
> 
> 
> Google Translate is about as close to English as Icarus is to the sun.


yeh sure i beleve you, but many dont. besides a jet is not made on its looks

also i used his site, Free Translation and Professional Translation Services from SDL


----------



## Akasa

The ex vice president of AVIC confirmed that J-31 can supercruise.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## BoQ77

if we only based on CAD figures, American has not only few type of aircrafts but also thousand


----------



## aliaselin

cirr said:


> Looks like China isn't gonna export the PL10 and PL15 any time soon。
> 
> The following report in Chinese，as usual，is far more informative：
> 
> 中航：歼31战机经一年改进 性能获实质飞跃(图)
> 
> 2015年11月09日 　来源：环球网
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2015迪拜航展中航工业展台展出的鹘鹰隐身战机
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 中国空军副司令张洪贺（右）莅临中航工业展台参观指导
> 
> 11月8日，第14届迪拜国际航展首日，中航工业召开新闻发布会，首次在海外推出中国自主研发的第四代先进多用途战斗机“鹘鹰”。此次“鹘鹰”战机亮相迪拜航展，是继2014年中国珠海航展进行飞行表演、静态模型展示之后，首次走出国门、参加国际大型综合性航展，成为迪拜航展的一大亮点。
> 
> 发布会现场，飞机总设计师林鹏简要介绍了“鹘鹰”战机，作为主导未来战场的最新型多用途战斗机，“鹘鹰”战机具有高生存力的特点，包括低可探测性以及优异的电子对抗性能;其多任务能力能够施展强大的目标探测和外部信息综合，可实现超视距多目标攻击和大离轴角全向攻击。“鹘鹰”战机推进系统采用两台高性能小涵道比涡扇发动机，具有较强的内埋及外挂能力，可挂装中国或国外多种先进的空空、空面武器，并配装1门航炮。此外，“鹘鹰”战机还具有优异的综合保障能力和高性价比。
> 
> 中航工业副总经理李玉海表示，“鹘鹰”战机的成功展出具有三个层面的重要意义。一是在国家“一带一路”建设的战略指引下，中航工业作为中国航空制造旗帜，愿意同“一带一路”涵盖的国家和地区交流所取得的成绩，实现技术的互动和经济的互通;二是“鹘鹰”战机是一款我国自主研发的处于在研阶段的第四代中型多用途战斗机，从2014年珠海航展飞跃到2015年迪拜航展，经过一年的改进提升，在性能、平台和系统等诸多方面得以完善，真正实现了实质性“飞跃”;三是“鹘鹰”战机亮相迪拜航展彰显了中国航空制造能力的坚定信心，其背后是整个国家的制造实力提升和国民经济发展，标志着中国航空武器装备出口正打破传统市场格局，迈向国际高端航空装备军贸平台，完成了从常规装备向先进战机的跨代式转变。
> 
> 迪拜航展现场，国内外主流专业媒体对“鹘鹰”战机的参展表现出浓厚兴趣，在中航工业展台静态展示的缩比“鹘鹰”战机模型也成为观众拍照留影的热门展品。
> 
> 中航：歼31战机经一年改进 性能获实质飞跃(图)-中新网


Actually this report has hinted that the next prototype will have AESA(超视距多目标攻击), EODAS(大离轴角全向攻击)， EOTS(from the showed model), but the journalist did not understand what he had written.



SinoSoldier said:


> The ex vice president of AVIC confirmed that J-31 can supercruise


Which report?


----------



## Akasa

aliaselin said:


> Actually this report has hinted that the next prototype will have AESA(超视距多目标攻击), EODAS(大离轴角全向攻击)， EOTS(from the showed model), but the journalist did not understand what he had written.


Any idea when the next model will debut?



aliaselin said:


> Which report?


In the posted video?


----------



## BoQ77

SinoSoldier said:


> The ex vice president of AVIC confirmed that J-31 can supercruise.



An ex- can't decide, he can expect it only.


----------



## Manidabest

R U sure PAF has already placed an order for fc31???


----------



## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> A CGI of KFX



Unless Korean, Japanese get their hands on actual stealth aircraft, managed to replicate the stealth and willing to invest in projects that doesn't guaranteed work, these concept arts will never get pass the drawing board. Russia and China underwent lots of failures, attempts and managed to obtain f117 wreckage with some stolen from b2 and f35 engineers via buying before they could get their stealth fighters to work.

Under Americans tight regulation over their allies, less likely Korea nor Japan could build their own stealth fighters. Americans would not let these allies building their own primary fighters and reject the f35s and f16s, mostly Lockheed products. 

Best examples:
Taiwan AIDC Chingkuo was denied powerful f16 or f18 engines that they had to shrink their fighters to fit weak engines designed out of f5e. US done so to prevent Chingkuo from affecting f16 sales.
Israeli Lavi was forced to cancel when US threatened to cut off deals. The Lavi threatens f16s sales.


----------



## don boss@34

I think PAF have to go for stelth ...


----------



## kungfugymnast

don boss@34 said:


> I think PAF have to go for stelth ...



They have to because IAF fighters outnumbered their fighters.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Muhammad Omar said:


> is it the new version that was showed in Zuhai Air Show?


Nope. The improvements shown in Zhuhai were clipped wings, redesigned vertical and horizontal stabilizers.


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## cnleio

Navy version ... the Middle is BOSS of AVIC group, the BOSS of J-31/FC-31 Project.

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## Akasa

cnleio said:


> Navy version ... the Middle is BOSS of AVIC group, the BOSS of J-31/FC-31 Project.
> View attachment 273346



Looks a lot different from FC-31 v2.0


----------



## BoQ77

kungfugymnast said:


> *Unless Korean, Japanese get their hands on actual stealth aircraft*, managed to replicate the stealth and willing to invest in projects that doesn't guaranteed work, these concept arts will never get pass the drawing board. Russia and China underwent lots of failures, attempts and managed to obtain f117 wreckage with some stolen from b2 and f35 engineers via buying before they could get their stealth fighters to work.
> 
> Under Americans tight regulation over their allies, less likely Korea nor Japan could build their own stealth fighters. Americans would not let these allies building their own primary fighters and reject the f35s and f16s, mostly Lockheed products.
> 
> Best examples:
> Taiwan AIDC Chingkuo was denied powerful f16 or f18 engines that they had to shrink their fighters to fit weak engines designed out of f5e. US done so to prevent Chingkuo from affecting f16 sales.
> Israeli Lavi was forced to cancel when US threatened to cut off deals. The Lavi threatens f16s sales.



F-35 is coming !!! Next year F-35 would be assembled right in Japan.
Korea will get F35 too. Their pilots may under training for F-35 in USA now.

Both has their own project and both get real F-35 within one or two years.












F-117


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## Muhammad Omar

What's the date of 1st prototype to Fly? J-31 V 2.0


----------



## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> F-35 is coming !!! Next year F-35 would be assembled right in Japan.
> Korea too. Their pilots may under training for F-35 in USA now.
> 
> Both has their own project and both get real F-35 within one or two years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-117


2017 Japan and S.Korea won't build F-35 in home.

@BoQ77 Do u feel embarrassed when u provide wrong information & data in PDF ? and do that again and again and again ... how u feel those wrong in ur posts ? 



FlightGlobal: South Korea formally decides on 40 F-35As
South Korea’s official news agency quoting the nation’s joint chiefs of staff as saying that Seoul would buy 40 F-35As, with deliveries to start in 2018 .... pls tell us when F-35 would be assembled in S.Korea or Japan ???

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> 2017 Japan and S.Korea won't build F-35 in home.
> .... pls tell us when F-35 would be assembled in S.Korea or Japan ???





> The Japanese Final Assembly and Check Out assembly
> facility is now complete withboth Electronic Mate Assembly Stations tools installed and accepted. Construction and installation activities remain on schedule, and the major components are now being shipped.The first Japanese F-35A is scheduled to rollout of the facility in November 2016.



*Northrop Grumman completes center fuselage for first F-35 to be assembled in Japan*
Northrop Grumman has completed – on budget and on schedule – the center fuselage for the first F-35 Lightning II aircraft to be assembled in Japan’s F-35 Final Assembly and Checkout (FACO) facility in Nagoya, Japan.




Photo: Northrop Grumman
The center fuselage, designated AX-5, is one of 42 center fuselages that Northrop Grumman will produce for Japan.

Northrop Grumman Completes Center Fuselage for First F-35 Aircraft to Be Assembled in Japan (NYSE:NOC)

*



*


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## aliaselin

> *DUBAI: Customer sought for AVIC’s new stealth fighter*
> 
> 08 NOVEMBER, 2015
> 
> BY: GREG WALDRON
> 
> SINGAPORE
> Chinese airframer AVIC has delivered a shock at Dubai by revealing a surprising level of detail about its proposed FC-31 Gyrfalcon fifth-generation multi-role fighter, even though the type has yet to secure a launch customer.
> 
> The aircraft being promoted appears to be a follow-on development of the company’s J-31, a mysterious black fighter aircraft that appeared in at the flying display at Airshow China in Zhuhai last November. The J-31 had its first flight in 2012, but virtually no details have been publicly released.
> 
> In a Dubai press briefing, Gyrfalcon designer Lin Peng said the FC-31 is envisaged as a low-observable jet with “multi-spectrum, low-observability characteristics.”
> 
> The fighter will be capable of a range of missions, including offensive/defence counter air, deep strike, suppression of enemy air defences, interdiction, close air support, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance.
> 
> In a video shown during the presentation, a squadron of FC-31s communicated with each other through secure datalinks. Another slide showed how the aircraft’s small cross section reduces the threat radius of enemy sensors and weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillyPix
> 
> No details were given about the FC-31’s sensor suite or weapons, but AVIC says this equipment and communications equipment can be tailored to customer requirements.
> 
> The aircraft has six external hardpoints, with an internal weapons bay that can carry a further four munitions. Payload is 8,000kg (17,600lb), of which 2,000kg can be carried internally. Combat radius with internal weapons is 648nm (1,200km), and maximum take-off weight is 25,000kg (55,000lb).
> 
> The first flight of a production example is planned for 2019, followed by initial operating capability in 2022 and final operating capability three years' later.
> 
> AVIC’s disclosures were striking given the veil of secrecy that has covered the J-31 programme – at Zhuhai, company representatives flatly declined to discuss the aircraft or its performance characteristics.
> 
> Still, there is a great deal of mystery about the FC-31. AVIC did not allow time for a question and answer session after the briefing, obliging reporters to crowd around executives as they attempted to exit the chalet.
> 
> During this ad hoc Q&A it emerged that the FC-31 has yet to find a launch customer, although there are discussions with the Chinese air force. Executives also decline to comment on the engines that power the J-31, believed to be the Klimov RD-93s that power the RAC MiG-29, or the powerplants for the FC-31.
> 
> Achieving the first flight in 2019 is also contingent upon securing a "well-funded" customer, it says.



This piece of news has told us the timeline for FC-31 development:
2016: first prototype roll out(?)
2019: finalize the design
2022: IOC if it can find a launch customer before 2019
2025: FOC

@Deino any comment?

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## Deino

Hmmm ? With proper founding - in case of a customer - and a decent engine I would say it could be possible; maybe not FOC in 2025 but IOC; I would be more careful.

PS there seems to be a mistake in Your post, 2012 does not make sense.

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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Hmmm ? With proper founding - in case of a customer - and a decent engine I would say it could be possible; maybe not FOC in 2025 but IOC; I would be more careful.
> 
> PS there seems to be a mistake in Your post, 2012 does not make sense.



I'm a little confused with IOC, too. As you know, CAC has produced more than 48 J-10B for IOC test, and F-35 number is even larger; but for LCA, there is only a single digit number, maybe less than 4 for IOC test.

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## 帅的一匹

any news updated as of now? Nearly 2 months without any updating for J31. Is it still alive?


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## siegecrossbow

wanglaokan said:


> any news updated as of now? Nearly 2 months without any updating for J31. Is it still alive?



Weather in Shenyang is too cold for wall climbers. That, plus the tighter security around the SAC site, means that there are fewer images of J-31s.

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## asia2000

siegecrossbow said:


> Weather in Shenyang is too cold for wall climbers. That, plus the tighter security around the SAC site, means that there are fewer images of J-31s.


All the countries start to develop their own 4th gen fighters. Without a viable customer, seems J31 no longer a priority.

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## Sasquatch

asia2000 said:


> All the countries start to develop their own 4th gen fighters. Without a viable customer, seems J31 no longer a priority.



The 310 project was more of a private project by sac, I believe the PLANAF would be interested in a naval variant for the future carriers.

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## Max Pain

judging by the comments here it seems J 31 program may take more time than expected,
I dont see the rush in this project the way ive seen in other Jets,

which is Sad cuz thats something id really love to see in Pakistan's Color.

Despite that its Great to see China making huge strides.

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## Blue Marlin

Hu Songshan said:


> The 310 project was more of a private project by sac, I believe the PLANAF would be interested in a naval variant for the future carriers.


so if the j31/project 310 is a private project, then why is there reports of pakistani interest? or is it more of a technology demonstrator?


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## asia2000

Blue Marlin said:


> so if the j31/project 310 is a private project, then why is there reports of pakistani interest? or is it more of a technology demonstrator?


It is a private project of Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. If I remember correctly, FC-1 was also a private project between CAC and PAF, PLAAF was never involved.

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## Quwa

In terms of 5th gen options the PAF doesn't have many other options outside of the FC-31. Taking pshamim's comment on PakDef about the PAF being interested in acquiring 60 "initially", it's possible the PAF is looking at the idea of co-funding the FC-31 quite seriously.

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## yantong1980

Glad to see if FC-31 project become next joint cooperation between Pakistan and China.


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## syed1

as J-31 wasn't started under the necessity of PLA with the guideline of CCP's CMC, I don't see the development of J 31 going anywhere. Besides as a private project, J 31 can't be run by a single company without any gurantee of future profit from an exporting nation who also gurantees for maintaining the cost of project money at share/joint venture. if no visible customer is found, this project is as good as a dead meat.


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## Tiqiu

中国飓风:_发表于 2015-10-29 21:57_ 
http://bbs.meyet.com/thread-239560-4832-1.html
歼-31赴某地向巴国展示，全程由巴飞行员……
translation: F31 was on a fly path to some place for Pakistan inspection, during the full course Pakistani pilots........






Does anyone know if any Pakistani air force delegation in China at that time?

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## 帅的一匹

will J31 developed the same model as JF17? JV between China and Pakistan?

Now I can smell something out of it.


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## Deino

A J-31 or F-22-look alike spotted ... but not at SAC !!!

If I'm not mistaken, then is Pucheng Neifu Airport, Shannxi close to XAC ... if at Shenyang, o.k. ... but there ??

Is there some sort of structural lab or so located ??

If You use the tool to measure its dimensions, it's about the size of a Raptor.

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## Blue Marlin

Tiqiu said:


> 中国飓风:_发表于 2015-10-29 21:57_
> http://bbs.meyet.com/thread-239560-4832-1.html
> 歼-31赴某地向巴国展示，全程由巴飞行员……
> translation: F31 was on a fly path to some place for Pakistan inspection, during the full course Pakistani pilots........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if any Pakistani air force delegation in China at that time?


well they do have pakistani personel at chengdu all the time so i wont be at all suprised if they were there. mind you it is all lp for now. so donw expect any goood answer other thn knwing that they are interesting it


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> A J-31 or F-22-look alike spotted ... but not at SAC !!!
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, then is Pucheng Neifu Airport, Shannxi close to XAC ... if at Shenyang, o.k. ... but there ??
> 
> Is there some sort of structural lab or so located ??
> 
> If You use the tool to measure its dimensions, it's about the size of a Raptor.
> 
> View attachment 292713


According to the color looks like J31 type 2.0? Gesus Christ!


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## sheik

Deino said:


> A J-31 or F-22-look alike spotted ... but not at SAC !!!
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, then is Pucheng Neifu Airport, Shannxi close to XAC ... if at Shenyang, o.k. ... but there ??
> 
> Is there some sort of structural lab or so located ??
> 
> If You use the tool to measure its dimensions, it's about the size of a Raptor.
> 
> View attachment 292713



Good news for Chinese fans anyway


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## 592257001

Deino said:


> A J-31 or F-22-look alike spotted ... but not at SAC !!!
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, then is Pucheng Neifu Airport, Shannxi close to XAC ... if at Shenyang, o.k. ... but there ??
> 
> Is there some sort of structural lab or so located ??
> 
> If You use the tool to measure its dimensions, it's about the size of a Raptor.
> 
> View attachment 292713



Assuming it's not a model plane (though not exactly a logical place to place a model plane, especially since there's been no news of such mock up have surfaced in that airport), it might be an un-scheduled landing for the FC-31.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Deino said:


> A J-31 or F-22-look alike spotted ... but not at SAC !!!
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, then is Pucheng Neifu Airport, Shannxi close to XAC ... if at Shenyang, o.k. ... but there ??
> 
> Is there some sort of structural lab or so located ??
> 
> If You use the tool to measure its dimensions, it's about the size of a Raptor.
> 
> View attachment 292713



I believe it's a 2nd prototype of J-31 painted silver as the latest batch of J-20, any progress done to J-20 mean transfer technology to J-31 , but definitely not F-22 look alike, US will freak out if we copy the F-22...LMAO

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## Viper0011.

wanglaokan said:


> According to the color looks like J31 type 2.0? Gesus Christ!



There are two prototypes and 2 more about to finish up in the next few months. S you'll see 4 aircraft being used to Testing and Improvements / Avionics Integration, Flight Testing, etc. And yes, Pakistani JV chances are very high, probably with limited TOT. They want to turn their JFT block IV into a Stealth Optimized single engine jet. So J-31's TOT (even limited) would help with that too.


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## Deino

Guys ,... just calm down ! Why should anyone expect a J-31 close to Xi'an ??? and not at its manufactor's site at SAC ???

... there nothing that fit this to be a J-31-V2. ... that thing is too strange to be some sort of J-31.V2 !

- it's not at SAC ... if there's not a material stress-testing site at Xi'an related
- it's too large (close to a Raptor)
- reportedly there was a General Aviation & Technology at Pucheng exhibition ... maybe there was a F-22-model on display ?
http://cigac.blogspot.de/p/floor-plans.html & http://gashow.net/venues/pucheng-airport-zlpc/

So again, it simply does not fit a J-31.
Deino


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## j20blackdragon

It's not the FC-31. The planforms of the two planes are completely different.

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## Viper0011.

Deino said:


> Guys ,... just calm down ! Why should anyone expect a J-31 close to Xi'an ??? and not at its manufactor's site at SAC ???
> 
> -* reportedly there was a General Aviation & Technology at Pucheng exhibition ... maybe there was a F-22-model on display ?*



Or....this is a third Chinese Stealth program that just got disclosed by accident?? There is no reason for a -22 "model" to be at a Tarmac on an operational runway....


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## Deino

But why ?? There is no major aircraft manufacture at this site, that airport is not military related ... that type would collide with the requirement of the J-20 ... it does not make any sense and the simplest explanation is that it is simply some sort of a full-size mock-up.


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## j20blackdragon

Here's my guess.

1. The J-20 is a large interceptor/striker powered by the WS-15 (and AL-31FN Series 3 as an interim solution). The J-20 will be flying at supersonic speeds at high altitudes in a straight line. It doesn't matter what engines it's using. Thrust to weight ratio only matters if you maneuver in a dogfight and slow down.

2. The FC-31 is a purely export plane like the FC-1, powered by RD-93. The PLAAF has never operated any planes with the RD-93, so why would they begin now?

3. This silver J-XX is the real stealth fighter. If Deino's size estimate is correct and this mystery fighter is about the same size as the F-22, that would make it perfect for WS-10. Virtually all of the PLAAF's fighter aircraft (Flanker clones and J-10 family) use the WS-10. It would make logistical sense to also have the stealth fighter use the same engine.

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## cnleio

Deino said:


> A J-31 or F-22-look alike spotted ... but not at SAC !!!
> View attachment 292713


The size looks more like a F-35


----------



## Daniel808

cnleio said:


> The size looks more like a F-35
> View attachment 292891
> View attachment 292892



The size is yes, comparable to F-35 Size.
But that Silver Mysterious things, have 2 engines. If we look closely.


----------



## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> Here's my guess.
> 
> 1. The J-20 is a large interceptor/striker powered by the WS-15 (and AL-31FN Series 3 as an interim solution). The J-20 will be flying at supersonic speeds at high altitudes in a straight line. It doesn't matter what engines it's using. Thrust to weight ratio only matters if you maneuver in a dogfight and slow down.
> 
> 2. The FC-31 is a purely export plane like the FC-1, powered by RD-93. The PLAAF has never operated any planes with the RD-93, so why would they begin now?
> 
> 3. This silver J-XX is the real stealth fighter. If Deino's size estimate is correct and this mystery fighter is about the same size as the F-22, that would make it perfect for WS-10. Virtually all of the PLAAF's fighter aircraft (Flanker clones and J-10 family) use the WS-10. It would make logistical sense to also have the stealth fighter use the same engine.



1. No, ... the J-20 is from all we know a fully fledged 5. generation FIGHTER !

2. YES

3. No, see my post below and if it is of the size of a Raptor, esp. then a WS-10 does not make sense similar to the AL-31 - only as an interim - since it then would require the same WS-15 finally ... making it a direct competitor for the J-20.

Guys ... this thing can't be any real thing. It's a civil general aviation airport, far away from all possible manufactors ...



cnleio said:


> The size looks more like a F-35



No, the size is surely close to a Raptor !

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## nang2

My guess: Chinese has made a F-22 model.

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## Silicon0000

Long Range Twin Engine Stealth JF17


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## cnleio

nang2 said:


> My guess: Chinese has made a F-22 model.


Possiblily, test a F-22 model RCS and provide useful data to improve PLA's anti-aircraft capacity.
Anyways China AVIC has power & equipments to test RCS of stealth fighter.


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## j20blackdragon

But why assemble a full-scale, non-flying model/mockup at a tiny obscure airport such as this?






If this model/mockup is intended for a nearby aviation expo or theme park, why not assemble it at the actual site?

If this model/mockup is intended for RCS testing, is there any evidence that RCS testing ever occurred at this small airport? Do they even have the equipment or facilities to do RCS testing at this location?

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## j20blackdragon

The big question for me is...why does a non-flying mockup need to show up at an airport to begin with? Furthermore, why is it parked on the apron with the other aircraft if it's a mockup?






We've seen plenty of mockups in China before.






In the above example, the J-10A mockup is built on grass and surrounded by flowers. It's purely for decorative purposes. I doubt it was ever built at an airport.

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## j20blackdragon

It's not even a good replica of the F-22.

The leading edges of the F-22's main wing and inlet have identical sweep angles. The mystery plane has different leading edge sweep angles.






Also the nose and cockpit area of the mystery plane is too short relative to the rest of the aircraft.

The paint color is all wrong. It has that shiny silver look the J-20 has. The F-22 has more of a grayish color.

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## Basel

j20blackdragon said:


> It's not even a good replica of the F-22.
> 
> The leading edges of the F-22's main wing and inlet have identical sweep angles. The mystery plane has different leading edge sweep angles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the nose and cockpit area of the mystery plane is too short relative to the rest of the aircraft.
> 
> The paint color is all wrong. It has that shiny silver look the J-20 has. The F-22 has more of a grayish color.



It could be redesigned J-31, model of which was displayed in air show in China.

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## j20blackdragon

I'm just eyeballing a lot of this but...

I think the leading edge sweep angles of the main wing and horizontal stabilizer are the same.






The sweep angle of the leading edge of the inlet and trailing edge of the opposite main wing are the same.






This is an awful lot of detail for an amateur project...


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## 帅的一匹

J31 type 2.0 I say. This baby is rock'in roll, I just love it. Hope Our government pump more money into this project, so our navy and Pakistan has more choice.

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## Deino

Guys ... I really appreciate Your enthusiasm, but You should stay rationale !

This can't be the no. 02 FC-31 since it is too big, has a completely different platform (aka exactly the F-22's), it is spotted on a civil GA-airport far, far away from Shenyang ... so forget it.

Deino


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## CHD

Maybe Raptor entered chinese air space and was forced to land


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## j20blackdragon

China International General Aviation Convention (CIGAC) is held every two years (odd number years) at Pucheng Neifu Airport.

The event is always held in mid-October.






However, the Google Earth image that contains the mystery aircraft is dated 12/16/2015, two months after the end of CIGAC 2015.





The next CIGAC will be in October 2017.

Assuming the mystery aircraft is a mockup...
Do we have any evidence that a F-22 look-alike mockup was put on display at CIGAC 2015?
Why is a military mockup needed at a general aviation convention?
Why is the mockup still parked on the apron two months after the event?

Also a full-scale mockup of this size will require trucks for transportation to and from the airport.





Surely, someone must have seen something?


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## j20blackdragon

Let me put two Google Earth shots side by side.

F-22s at Langley AFB.





J-XX at Pucheng Neifu Airport.





Map scale has been equalized.

My conclusions:

1. The J-XX is smaller than the F-22.
2. Planforms are similar but not the same.
3. The paint color is completely different.

Let me be clear, I don't know if this thing is a real plane or a mockup. I'm simply saying it's not a replica of the F-22.


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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> ...
> Map scale has been equalized.
> 
> My conclusions:
> 
> 1. The J-XX is smaller than the F-22.
> 2. Planforms are similar but not the same.
> 3. The paint color is completely different.
> 
> Let me be clear, I don't know if this thing is a real plane or a mockup. I'm simply saying it's not a replica of the F-22.




Sorry, but it has not. Just compare both eye-altitudes and You see the F-22 has an altitude of 146 ft whereas the new model is spotted from an altitude of 1365 ft.

Even more they are so close to another in nearly all details that I would simply ignore colour effects (due to lightning ?) and most of all, all other arguments simply speak against a new secret stealth type !

I think we should stay rationale ...


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## Blue Marlin

j20blackdragon said:


> Let me put two Google Earth shots side by side.
> 
> F-22s at Langley AFB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-XX at Pucheng Neifu Airport.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Map scale has been equalized.
> 
> My conclusions:
> 
> 1. The J-XX is smaller than the F-22.
> 2. Planforms are similar but not the same.
> 3. The paint color is completely different.
> 
> Let me be clear, I don't know if this thing is a real plane or a mockup. I'm simply saying it's not a replica of the F-22.


is that a new 5th gen fighter or a second prototype of the j31


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## Kompromat

Seems to incorporate DSIs

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## The Eagle

Waiting for more news and confirmations.... If it is not a mock up then indeed a great development.



Horus said:


> Seems to incorporate DSIs



Sir.. any news about development of FC-31, it has been a while heard about it?

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## BoQ77

I guess it's a L-15
















j20blackdragon said:


> J-XX at Pucheng Neifu Airport.
> 
> 
> Map scale has been equalized.
> 
> My conclusions:
> 
> 1. The J-XX is smaller than the F-22.
> 2. Planforms are similar but not the same.
> 3. The paint color is completely different.
> 
> Let me be clear, I don't know if this thing is a real plane or a mockup. I'm simply saying it's not a replica of the F-22.

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## Deino

BoQ77 said:


> I guess it's a L-15




... and how to explain the difference in dimensions the difference in the number of tails ???


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## BoQ77

Deino said:


> ... and how to explain the difference in dimensions the difference in the number of tails ???



The dark green is CJ-6 trainer which has wingspan 10.22m . The suspect has even narrower wingspan ( L15 is 9.48m ) , while F-22's is 13.56m.

The significant gap to the horizontal stabilizers in the shadow ( and look careful in the shadow you should realise the single vertical stabilizer ).

You saw the F-22 horizontal stabilizers in the shadow not the vertical. And it's nearly close to the wings in F-22 case.

I guess that's the zone of trainers.











By shadow, sometime F16 looks like Gen 5

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## randomradio

Look like the first prototype of the FC-31.


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## Deino

Not sure if You are blind ... but You really do not see the two tails !??? ... You really do not see that this is a much larger model that exactly matches a Raptor ???

... anyway ....

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## Blue Marlin

BoQ77 said:


> The dark green is CJ-6 trainer which has wingspan 10.22m . The suspect has even narrower wingspan ( L15 is 9.48m ) , while F-22's is 13.56m.
> 
> The significant gap to the horizontal stabilizers in the shadow ( and look careful in the shadow you should realise the single vertical stabilizer ).
> 
> You saw the F-22 horizontal stabilizers in the shadow not the vertical. And it's nearly close to the wings in F-22 case.
> 
> I guess that's the zone of trainers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By shadow, sometime F16 looks like Gen 5


are you ok? im starting to worry about you lad.


----------



## randomradio

Deino said:


> Not sure if You are blind ... but You really do not see the two tails !??? ... You really do not see that this is a much larger model that exactly matches a Raptor ???



Hmm??? The FC-31 also has two fins, two tails... I really think it's a new J-31 prototype. And I don't think you should go by pixel count. Pixels don't have a fixed size. The aircraft is smaller than you think.

The cockpit and nose are too small compared to the Raptor. And the inlet is shaped pretty much like the J-31 TDs. So yeah, it is a new J-31/FC-31 prototype.

It's just covered in silver-grey paint.

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## Deino

My argument was to related to this post by BoQ77 ! Sorry for that misunderstanding ...

Even more since there's another mistake in Your argument:



BoQ77 said:


> The dark green is CJ-6 trainer which has wingspan 10.22m . The suspect has even narrower wingspan ( L15 is 9.48m ) , while F-22's is 13.56m.
> 
> The significant gap to the horizontal stabilizers in the shadow ( and look careful in the shadow you should realise the single vertical stabilizer ).
> 
> You saw the F-22 horizontal stabilizers in the shadow not the vertical. And it's nearly close to the wings in F-22 case.
> 
> I guess that's the zone of trainers.



This CJ-6 You mention is in fact a Y-5 transport with a span of 14,24 m ... so just a bit less than a Raptor's span !

As such regardless of all similarities and in all honour to Your enthusiasm, just consider where it is found and how much more similar it is - esp. in its details & dimensions - to a Raptor.

I would say it is even more likely a defector, who escaped from Japan or Korea (not sure were the latest Raptor deployment just was) but a new Chinese stealth fighter.

Deino


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## BoQ77

Deino said:


> Not sure if You are blind ...



I wish I were blind to avoid reading this from you.

Your point is good, I didn't focus on 2 layers of wing on the An-2 variant.

But I'm still doubtful about the vertical fin, look at the shadow at top-left, what it could be.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

it's look like new version of J-31 shown at Zuhai Air Show....

Compare the wings with the google map pic 
this also has 2 engines

it's J-31 version 2.0  for Sure


----------



## Saint.firewall

Even this Moke not look like the actual pic, which is exactly look like Raptor.


----------



## Tiqiu



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## 帅的一匹

@Tiqiu weapon test?


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## Tiqiu

wanglaokan said:


> @Tiqiu weapon test?


According to the picture it was a weapon test. This was posted by the same big shrimp who revealed the Pakistani inspection team few months ago, so I guess it was part of that ongoing event.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Tiqiu said:


> According to the picture it was a weapon test. This was posted by the same big shrimp who revealed the Pakistani inspection team few months ago, so I guess it was part of that ongoing event.


you mean PAF had checked the J31?


----------



## BoQ77

it looks like an art work


----------



## Deino

Here's the video: 




And even if all other weapons related images are clearly CGs, that missile launch looks very realistic.

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## Tiqiu



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## cnleio

FC-31 and ATD-X ... ...

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> FC-31 and ATD-X ... ...
> 
> View attachment 297391



What about the schedule for J-31 ?
It conducted the maiden flight back in Oct 2012.
and debut at Zhuhai airshow in Nov 2014.
I guess there'd be some news in 2016
------------


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## cirr

SAC/601 2016 tasks：

Detailed design of one type of aircraft

Maiden flights of three types of aircrafts

Appraisals and certifications of four types of aircrafts

转作风练内功　尽责任勇担当 以良好开局推动沈阳所转型跨越 中航工业沈阳所所长　刘志敏　党委书记　奚继兴

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## Deino

cirr said:


> SAC/601 2016 tasks：
> 
> Detailed design of one type of aircraft
> 
> Maiden flights of three types of aircrafts
> 
> Appraisals and certifications of four types of aircrafts
> 
> 转作风练内功　尽责任勇担当
> 以良好开局推动沈阳所转型跨越
> 中航工业沈阳所所长　刘志敏　党委书记　奚继兴




O.k., so let's guess what they are ?! My suggestions are ....

Detailed design of one type of aircraft: something new and still secret

Maiden flights of three types of aircrafts: FC-31-V.2, J-15B, J-15EW

Appraisals and certifications of four types of aircrafts: J-16, J-15S, Divine Eagle UAV, J-11D (maybe a bit too early ?)

Or do You have other suggestions ?

Deino

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## S. Martin

Deino said:


> O.k., so let's guess what they are ?! My suggestions are ....
> 
> Detailed design of one type of aircraft: something new and still secret
> 
> Maiden flights of three types of aircrafts: FC-31-V.2, J-15B, J-15EW
> 
> Appraisals and certifications of four types of aircrafts: J-16, J-15S, Divine Eagle UAV, ??
> 
> Or do You have other suggestions ?
> 
> Deino



Has J11D been certificated?


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## Deino

S. Martin said:


> Has J11D been certificated?



Surely not ... I simply forgot it !


----------



## S. Martin

My guess:
Detailed design of one type of aircraft: FC-31 

Maiden flights of three types of aircrafts: J-15B, J-15EW, Divine Eagle UAV

Appraisals and certifications of four types of aircrafts: J11D, J-16, J-15S, Sharp Sword UAV


Source: SAC FC-31 Stealth Aircraft Development | News & Discussions. | Page 134


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> SAC/601 2016 tasks：
> 
> Detailed design of one type of aircraft
> 
> Maiden flights of three types of aircrafts
> 
> Appraisals and certifications of four types of aircrafts
> 
> 转作风练内功　尽责任勇担当
> 以良好开局推动沈阳所转型跨越
> 中航工业沈阳所所长　刘志敏　党委书记　奚继兴



A personal guess:

Detailed design: H-18
Maiden flights: FC-31 v2.0, J-15B/EW, Sharp Sword v2.0
Certifications/appraisals: J-15S, J-16, Divine Eagle, J-16D


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## Deino

S. Martin said:


> My guess:
> Detailed design of one type of aircraft: FC-31
> 
> Maiden flights of three types of aircrafts: J-15B, J-15EW, Divine Eagle UAV
> 
> Appraisals and certifications of four types of aircrafts: J11D, J-16, J-15S, Sharp Sword UAV




I think Your assessment comes much closer that mine, esp. since the Divine Eagle can't be already certified, ... it has not even flown yet. However Sharp Sword - with no second aircraft flown - seems also a bit too early for certification.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Deino said:


> O.k., so let's guess what they are ?! My suggestions are ....
> 
> Detailed design of one type of aircraft: something new and still secret
> 
> Maiden flights of three types of aircrafts: FC-31-V.2, J-15B, J-15EW
> 
> Appraisals and certifications of four types of aircrafts: J-16, J-15S, Divine Eagle UAV, J-11D (maybe a bit too early ?)
> 
> Or do You have other suggestions ?
> 
> Deino



J-15EW?, China should consider to do J-15 AWAC and J-11s ASAT

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## cirr

Deino said:


> I think Your assessment comes much closer that mine, esp. since the Divine Eagle can't be already certified, ... it has not even flown yet. However Sharp Sword - with no second aircraft flown - seems also a bit too early for certification.



Having made its maiden flight only recently，the Divine Eagle is obviously not among the 8 aircrafts in question。

My guesses for the 3 aircrafts making maiden flights are：J-15D（D for EW）、FC-31-v2.0 and a new type of UAV。

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Having made its maiden flight only recently，the Divine Eagle is obviously not among the 8 aircrafts in question。
> 
> My guesses for the 3 aircrafts making maiden flights are：J-15D（D for EW）、FC-31-v2.0 and a new type of UAV。



Any idea when the J-15B will make its debut or when the J-15S will enter service?


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## Deino

cirr said:


> Having made its maiden flight only recently，the Divine Eagle is obviously not among the 8 aircrafts in question。



Even if OT ... but when has the Divine Eagle flown ???

I can't think it is possible to hide that huge UAV and we not seen any images so far.


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## randomradio

Deino said:


> Even if OT ... but when has the Divine Eagle flown ???
> 
> I can't think it is possible to hide that huge UAV and we not seen any images so far.



I think the benefit of the doubt should go to CCP/PLAAF, right?


----------



## cirr

Deino said:


> Even if OT ... but when has the Divine Eagle flown ???
> 
> I can't think it is possible to hide that huge UAV and we not seen any images so far.



Same with J-20 2102 which has made a number of taxing runs yet still no pics。


----------



## Deino

cirr said:


> Same with J-20 2102 which has made a number of taxing runs yet still no pics。




But to "hide" a taxi test of '2102' is surely much more feasible that to hide the maiden flight of this Monster-UAV !?


----------



## S. Martin

So far no evidences showing Divine Eagle has finished its maiden flight, not even much rumors. And I don't quite understand why SAC need to hide this good news if it's successful? We have seen other SAC's new models all publiced their maiden flight news without hiding, so no reason SAC this time need to hide it.
But if Divine Eagle is not that maiden one like Cirr said, then what's likely to be? "Dark Arrow" UAV? This one has been a long time without any news about it, SAC may have been working on this project and make it into reality.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Catapult version of J-15 according to this video?


----------



## Akasa

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Catapult version of J-15 according to this video?



The picture of the catapult-capable J-15 is only that of a model. The actual variant is believed to be under development, though.


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

SinoSoldier said:


> The picture of the catapult-capable J-15 is only that of a model. The actual variant is believed to be under development, though.



If the catapult-capable J-15 variant is under development mean that we will have the aircraft catapult carrier in near future. I'm eager to know how it will look like


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## That Guy

Deino said:


> I think Your assessment comes much closer that mine, esp. since the Divine Eagle can't be already certified, ... it has not even flown yet. However Sharp Sword - with no second aircraft flown - seems also a bit too early for certification.


Whatever happened to the sharp sword? After that initial taxi test, we haven't heard anything about it...at least I haven't.


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## Akasa

That Guy said:


> Whatever happened to the sharp sword? After that initial taxi test, we haven't heard anything about it...at least I haven't.



The rumor mill has it that an improved prototype might fly in 2016. It seems that, as with other aircraft from Shenyang, the initial prototype is merely a technology demonstrator.

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## That Guy

SinoSoldier said:


> The rumor mill has it that an improved prototype might fly in 2016. It seems that, as with other aircraft from Shenyang, the initial prototype is merely a technology demonstrator.


Makes sense, considering that is exactly what the FC-31 was.


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## cirr

That Guy said:


> Whatever happened to the sharp sword? After that initial taxi test, we haven't heard anything about it...at least I haven't.



That's because the Sharp Sword UAV is being developed/test-flighted in a secret location in southwest China that is far from the public eyes。At least 2 prototypes have been built so far。

All serious test-flights of major UAVs will be carried out at this base。

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## cirr

Patience，patience，patience！

Patience is a virtue。


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## Deino

cirr said:


> Patience，patience，patience！
> 
> Patience is a virtue。




First of all: Patience might be a virtue ... but surely not mine !

And second: Can I assume with this statement, You know something that "might" be interesting to us ... but You want to test our virtues !??

Deino

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## cirr

Deino said:


> First of all: Patience might be a virtue ... but surely not mine !
> 
> And second: Can I assume with this statement, You know something that "might" be interesting to us ... but You want to test our virtues !??
> 
> Deino


----------



## Deino

Arrrrrrggg ... I give up, patience is not mine, but I've heard that curiosity is also a virtue ... and that fit's me much more nicely.

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## Blue Marlin

where is j31 v2?


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## hk299792458

Blue Marlin said:


> where is j31 v2?



What's "J-31" ? I know *FC-31* but not "J-31".

Henri K.


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## Deino

They are the same and even if FC-31 is the official designation, J-31 has become so common - probably in expectation of a future PLAAF- or PLANAF-version - especially in different forums that You cannot ignore it anylonger...

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## Blue Marlin

hk299792458 said:


> What's "J-31" ? I know *FC-31* but not "J-31".
> 
> Henri K.


fine wheres the fc-31 v2 then?



Deino said:


> They are the same and even if FC-31 is the official designation, J-31 has become so common - probably in expectation of a future PLAAF- or PLANAF-version - especially in different forums that You cannot ignore it anylonger...


thank you

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## hk299792458

Deino said:


> They are the same and even if FC-31 is the official designation, J-31 has become so common - probably in expectation of a future PLAAF- or PLANAF-version - especially in different forums that You cannot ignore it anylonger...



J-31 is not the official designation, it does only exist in the head of some amateurs and some medias, the ONLY official designation used by all official organizations (included AVIC) is FC-31, nothing more. 

If FC-31 becomes one day a PLAAF or PLANAF version, the possible reference will be J-21.



Blue Marlin said:


> fine wheres the fc-31 v2 then?
> thank you



Roll-out still planned this year.

Henri K.


----------



## Deino

hk299792458 said:


> J-31 is not the official designation, it does only exist in the head of some amateurs and some medias, the ONLY official designation used by all official organizations (included AVIC) is FC-31, nothing more.
> 
> ....




Hmmm, did I make a typo ?? I think I said, that the only official designation is FC-31 ...

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## Blue Marlin

hk299792458 said:


> J-31 is not the official designation, it does only exist in the head of some amateurs and some medias, the ONLY official designation used by all official organizations (included AVIC) is FC-31, nothing more.
> 
> If FC-31 becomes one day a PLAAF or PLANAF version, the possible reference will be J-21.
> 
> 
> 
> Roll-out still planned this year.
> 
> Henri K.


any idea when? there has been pics on the internet of a jet approximatly the same size of the f22? which is speculated to be the fc-31 v2


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## Arthur

man,they are sure taking their time to roll out the v2.


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## Beast

Khan saheb said:


> man,they are sure taking their time to roll out the v2.


They are waiting for WS-13A to be ready.

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## cirr

Basking in the sun!!!

Anyone taking time, trouble and even risk to take photos of this beautiful bird?


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## The Eagle

Hope to have some news, it has been a while to hear about..... awaiting.............


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## Beast

The Eagle said:


> Hope to have some news, it has been a while to hear about..... awaiting.............


What goodies is the WS-13A engine.

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## The Eagle

Beast said:


> What goodies is the WS-13A engine.



So, if I am not wrong totally, WS-13A is planned for FC-31?

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## Beast

The Eagle said:


> So, if I am not wrong totally, WS-13A is planned for FC-31?


Indeed. The development was speed up due to the development of FC-31 rather than JF-17.

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## Deino

Via SDF:



siegecrossbow said:


> J-31 mark 2.0 is out and about? Let's wait for the pictures.
> 
> [URL='http://weibo.com/2685677853/DskpHnWKY?ref=home&rid=10_0_1_3062591937254058491&type=comment#_rnd1461419721033[/QUOTE']http://weibo.com/2685677853/DskpHnWKY?ref=home&rid=10_0_1_3062591937254058491&type=comment#_rnd1461419721033[/QUOTE[/URL]]

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## Akasa

Great news; it has been long-awaited but it's important to tie all loose ends first.


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## aliaselin

Some comparison:





I think FC-31 may produce 4 prototype

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## Beast

aliaselin said:


> Some comparison:
> View attachment 301741
> 
> I think FC-31 may produce 4 prototype


It needs to have a buyer first. I dont know whether PLAAF or PLANAF or PLAN are interested in these project. The arabs or Pakistan needs to comfirm , pay the downpayment then this project can really move forward at lightning speed.

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## lcloo

FC-31 manufacturer should learn the art of pro-active marketing strategy from western companies. After all, FC-31 is meant for export market. Have a grand roll-out publicity with lights and pyrontehnics fireworks , lots of picture, video and illustrations etc. etc....

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## cirr

31003

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## Deino

Images ... I want images ... we want images !!! And we want them *NOW* !

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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Images ... I want images ... we want images !!! And we want them *NOW* !


Do you have data about the series number of Jas39 used for static test?

By the way, no Rd33/93 in future prototype

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## Akasa

Fast; show us some photographs!


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## Djinn

Beast said:


> It needs to have a buyer first. I dont know whether PLAAF or PLANAF or PLAN are interested in these project. The arabs or Pakistan needs to comfirm , pay the downpayment then this project can really move forward at lightning speed.


This is somewhere Chinese diplomacy will come in handy. Chinese need to convince the Arabs that they need weaponry which can counter the US and it's North Atlantic Terrorist Organization alliance. Especially with Islamophobes like Donald Trump having high prospects of becoming the next US president, these Arab states need to prepare for the worst and for that Chinese can serve their interests well. China should launch a rigorous 5th gen fighter jet campaign in the Arab world, as even they know that they wont be getting their hands on the F-35 anytime soon. J-31 is probably their best bet at stealth ac.


----------



## 帅的一匹

Djinn said:


> This is somewhere Chinese diplomacy will come in handy. Chinese need to convince the Arabs that they need weaponry which can counter the US and it's North Atlantic Terrorist Organization alliance. Especially with Islamophobes like Donald Trump having high prospects of becoming the next US president, these Arab states need to prepare for the worst and for that Chinese can serve their interests well. China should launch a rigorous 5th gen fighter jet campaign in the Arab world, as even they know that they wont be getting their hands on the F-35 anytime soon. J-31 is probably their best bet at stealth ac.


Current J31 is only for Pakistan. If the Pla navy could induct, it will be cheaper.

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## RAMPAGE

Still no pics?


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Current J31 is only for Pakistan. If the Pla navy could induct, it will be cheaper.


I dont think PAF has make an concrete promise or down payment. So far, its from all AVIC Shenyang own pocket money.

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## HRK

aliaselin said:


> Some comparison:
> View attachment 301741
> 
> I think FC-31 may produce 4 prototype



can you plz share the source of this image ... ??


----------



## Deino

Beast said:


> I dont think PAF has make an concrete promise or down payment. So far, its from all AVIC Shenyang own pocket money.




I completely agree with You. So far the first bird is a pure concept-demonstrator and I can't think that any country already put some money on the table.

Anyway ... come on, show us that bird !!


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## The Eagle

Still no pictures..... Show us something..... :-(


----------



## aliaselin

HRK said:


> can you plz share the source of this image ... ??


Simply extract from Wiki

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## aliaselin

First taxiing is going!


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

aliaselin said:


> First taxiing is going!



you mean the 2.0 version?


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## cirr

aliaselin said:


> First taxiing is going!


 
Still no photos?

Northeasterners are a lazy bunch.


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## Deino

I know it exactly, they only want to put my patience to the test!

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## lcloo

Here are some cg picture to quench the thirst before the real photo of ver 2.0 come out.

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## Deino

No ... I only want the real one, no CGs !

Anyway thanks.

I hope it will look exactly like this model ...

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Deino said:


> No ... I only want the real one, no CGs !
> 
> Anyway thanks.
> 
> I hope it will look exactly like this model ...
> 
> View attachment 302970
> View attachment 302972
> View attachment 302973



where I can get one of this toy? 



Deino said:


> I know it exactly, they only want to put my patience to the test!



lol

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## Muhammad Omar

BOom BOom BOom Beauty


----------



## 果壳军事

Information we have:

1 The new coating is gray
2 The shape of VS is different from FC-31

Both changes are consistent with the model.

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## Beast

果壳军事 said:


> Information we have:
> 
> 1 The new coating is gray
> 2 The shape of VS is different from FC-31
> 
> Both changes are consistent with the model.



Looks like Shenyang AVIC is doing a good job. I guess this plane has a good export prospect. 

I hope it can debut for Zhuhai airshow 2016.


----------



## Deino

Hmmm, slowly ...

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## 果壳军事

Deino said:


> Hmmm, slowly ...
> 
> View attachment 303009
> View attachment 303010



This is likely a photo of the model.


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## lcloo

So sorry, that blur picture is indeed from a model.

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## Deino

Ohhh ... how much I hate these photoshop idiots !

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## Daniel808

Deino said:


> I know it exactly, they only want to put my patience to the test!



Me too 

But personally, I am very impressed with AVIC (Shenyang Aircraft Corporation) Capability to Develop their own 5th Gen Stealth Fighter Project with their own Pocket and Capacity.
Not many Aircraft manufacturer in this world can do that.

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## dy1022

Daniel808 said:


> Me too
> 
> But personally, I am very impressed with AVIC (Shenyang Aircraft Corporation) Capability to Develop their own 5th Gen Stealth Fighter Project with their own Pocket and Capacity.
> Not many Aircraft manufacturer in this world can do that.





more than 98% nations in this world can't do that!

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## Deino

o.k. guys ... now with 1. May = Labour Day and the following 2. May also free being over, it's up to make some more test and finally to show us that beauty ... so, come on, don't be so shy !


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Deino said:


> o.k. guys ... now with 1. May = Labour Day and the following 2. May also free being over, it's up to make some more test and finally to show us that beauty ... so, come on, don't be so shy !



Now, SAC is under pressure to release some pictures just to satisfy all J-31 fans

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## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Now, SAC is under pressure to release some pictures just to satisfy all J-31 fans


Maybe Shenyang will release the photo only after successful initial flight test.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beast said:


> Maybe Shenyang will release the photo only after successful initial flight test.



I'm also eager to see J-31 2.0 as much as our first Aircraft carrier but let SAC do their job first.


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## Deino

Yes for sure and I hope You all know that - even if more than eager I try to remain realistic - but it could be both: To do their job and to satisfy the fans ... and it could even show the Russians at Sukhoi that they can do better.

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## Muhammad Omar

Everyone is waiting for the Pics


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## BoQ77

果壳军事 said:


> Information we have:
> 
> 1 The new coating is gray
> 2 The shape of VS is different from FC-31
> 
> Both changes are consistent with the model.



So the design work still not finished.


----------



## Deino

BoQ77 said:


> So the design work still not finished.




How could it be ??? ... with just the second bird finished and not even flown.


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Any J-31 news from wall climbers?


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## Deino

Found in another thread in anticipation of the real bird ???

But WHY ?? Why on earth is there recently a complete hiatus on news ? Nothing on the FC-31.V2, nothing on new J-20s, nothing on nearly anything ?? 

Deino

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## Beast

Deino said:


> View attachment 305332
> View attachment 305333
> View attachment 305334
> Found in another thread in anticipation of the real bird ???
> 
> But WHY ?? Why on earth is there recently a complete hiatus on news ? Nothing on the FC-31.V2, nothing on new J-20s, nothing on nearly anything ??
> 
> Deino


The J-31 V2 plane is in shenyang and not like Chengdu test center where you can easily steal a few shot.


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## cirr

Deino said:


> View attachment 305332
> View attachment 305333
> View attachment 305334
> Found in another thread in anticipation of the real bird ???
> 
> But WHY ?? Why on earth is there recently a complete hiatus on news ? Nothing on the FC-31.V2, nothing on new J-20s, nothing on nearly anything ??
> 
> Deino



Chinese military fans are a disciplined bunch。

If and when they are told not to do anything untoward，they go fishing？

Here is a hint

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Chinese military fans are a disciplined bunch。
> 
> If and when they are told not to do anything untoward，they go fishing？
> 
> Here is a hint




Indeed ... it seems as if the final word on what can be posted and what not has indeed the ministry of security ,,, but why a photoshopped image of a J-20 ??


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## 星海军事

The so called 2.0 has performed a high-speed taxi run.

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> The so called 2.0 has performed a high-speed taxi run.



Do I need to ask for photos or should I let Furio Giunta do it?


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## 帅的一匹

星海军事 said:


> The so called 2.0 has performed a high-speed taxi run.


 it won't be very successful project if the government doesn't finance it.


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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> it won't be very successful project if the government doesn't finance it.



I think the PLANAF might be interested, and it can give J-20-based naval fighter a run for its money. It offers key advantages such as having a small planform and being further along in development, among others.


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## Deino

*We want images !!!!*


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## 星海军事

One source said, the differences between 1.0 and 2.0 are not that big


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## Muhammad Omar

星海军事 said:


> One source said, the differences between 1.0 and 2.0 are not that big


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> One source said, the differences between 1.0 and 2.0 are not that big




"Differs" not much can mean a lot or nothing: 






If I would show this image my wife she would say they are the same ... oh, wait, the colour is different. As such even small changes like a larger intake, a slightly different planform ... and the tails as biggest changes are still possible. 

As such, the only solution is:

*I want an image !!!!*


----------



## 星海军事

星海军事 said:


> The so called 2.0 has performed a high-speed taxi run.



Sorry, but this is a wrong interpretation. The truth is

https://defence.pk/threads/the-divine-eagle.377878/page-2#post-8328183


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> Sorry, but this is a wrong interpretation. The truth is
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/the-divine-eagle.377878/page-2#post-8328183




Thanks for Your correction; I really appreciate Your posts !

Otherwise no news ?

Deino


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## Tiqiu

This image just showed up today






http://www.avic.com/cn/xwzx/jqyw/431260.shtml
近日，中航工业与公安部、交通运输部、国防科工局联合组织召开某型试验机公路运输协调会，会议由集团公司综合管理部主持。会议成立了由国防科工局牵头的指 挥领导机构，建立了由中航工业牵头的组织协调机制，各省市公安和交通部门联合保障，确保某型试验飞机安全、顺利、保密地完成运输任务。

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## Blue Marlin

Tiqiu said:


> This image just showed up today
> View attachment 308505
> 
> 
> http://www.avic.com/cn/xwzx/jqyw/431260.shtml
> 近日，中航工业与公安部、交通运输部、国防科工局联合组织召开某型试验机公路运输协调会，会议由集团公司综合管理部主持。会议成立了由国防科工局牵头的指 挥领导机构，建立了由中航工业牵头的组织协调机制，各省市公安和交通部门联合保障，确保某型试验飞机安全、顺利、保密地完成运输任务。


what is it?


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## Akasa

Blue Marlin said:


> what is it?



An old image of the J-31 prototype.

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## Tiqiu

Baidu translation 
Recently, the aircraft industry and the Ministry of public security, Ministry of transport, national defense Bureau of the joint organization of a certain type of test machine road transport coordination meeting, the meeting chaired by the group's integrated management department. Meeting set up, led by the Bureau of science, technology and industry for national defense, command and leadership, established by the China aviation industry to take the lead organization and coordination mechanism, provincial public security and traffic departments joint guarantee to ensure a test aircraft safety, smooth, confidential to complete the transportation task.

Old photo with new message.

*某型试验机公路运输协调会召开*

来源：中航工业
发布时间：2016-06-01
【大 中 小】



　　近日，中航工业与公安部、交通运输部、国防科工局联合组织 召开某型试验机公路运输协调会，会议由集团公司综合管理部主持。会议成立了由国防科工局牵头的指挥领导机构，建立了由中航工业牵头的组织协调机制，各省市 公安和交通部门联合保障，确保某型试验飞机安全、顺利、保密地完成运输任务。


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## aliaselin

I have done an estimation for ferry range of FC-31:
Mig29 ferry range is 1430 km and internal fuel is 4365 L， so the ratio is 0.328
Mig29M ferry range is 2000 km and internal fuel is 6250 L, so the ratio is 0.32
Correspondingly, JF-17 internal fuel is 2938 L, so its ferry range is 0.32*2938*2 = 1880 km, which is 1800 km as officially published data.
It is said that the internal fuel of FC-31 is 8750 L, so the ferry range with internal fuel for FC-31 is 0.32*8750 = 2800 km


----------



## Beast

aliaselin said:


> I have done an estimation for ferry range of FC-31:
> Mig29 ferry range is 1430 km and internal fuel is 4365 L， so the ratio is 0.328
> Mig29M ferry range is 2000 km and internal fuel is 6250 L, so the ratio is 0.32
> Correspondingly, JF-17 internal fuel is 2938 L, so its ferry range is 0.32*2938*2 = 1880 km, which is 1800 km as officially published data.
> It is said that the internal fuel of FC-31 is 8750 L, so the ferry range with internal fuel for FC-31 is 0.32*8750 = 2800 km


Weight is another factor you need to taken in.


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## aliaselin

Beast said:


> Weight is another factor you need to taken in.


This is a simple model and rough estimation. Considering all of the factors would be too complicated.


----------



## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> This image just showed up today
> View attachment 308505
> 
> 
> http://www.avic.com/cn/xwzx/jqyw/431260.shtml
> 近日，中航工业与公安部、交通运输部、国防科工局联合组织召开某型试验机公路运输协调会，会议由集团公司综合管理部主持。会议成立了由国防科工局牵头的指 挥领导机构，建立了由中航工业牵头的组织协调机制，各省市公安和交通部门联合保障，确保某型试验飞机安全、顺利、保密地完成运输任务。




So You think it is a hint that this mysterious bird will be FC-31.V2 ???


----------



## Signalian

Deino said:


> *We want images !!!!*



Yes, we do.

Real ones, not P.S


----------



## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> So You think it is a hint that this mysterious bird will be FC-31.V2 ???


One thing is sure that this message appeared at AVIC website tells us a new type of testing plane(oversized as the message stresses it needs to be stealth) is going to be transported to some where(a long journey as it mentions different provinces and cities) under heavy protection(a joint meeting by many departments)

I kind remembered there was some message of this sort around the time when the old J-31 in transit photo was appeared. I guess some one can dig into it finding out the old message to be sure.

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## RAMPAGE




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## Hell hound

RAMPAGE said:


>


we need real ones not the photo shopped


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## Muhammad Omar

RAMPAGE said:


>



 Anxiously waiting for the real one

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## nang2

Tiqiu said:


> This image just showed up today
> View attachment 308505
> 
> 
> http://www.avic.com/cn/xwzx/jqyw/431260.shtml
> 近日，中航工业与公安部、交通运输部、国防科工局联合组织召开某型试验机公路运输协调会，会议由集团公司综合管理部主持。会议成立了由国防科工局牵头的指 挥领导机构，建立了由中航工业牵头的组织协调机制，各省市公安和交通部门联合保障，确保某型试验飞机安全、顺利、保密地完成运输任务。


This is an old image. Back in 2012. It certainly didn't show up just today.


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## jkroo



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## cirr

jkroo said:


> View attachment 309964


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## Hell hound

cirr said:


>


is this real.


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## Deino

Hell hound said:


> is this real.




Surely not ... just a CG !

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## cnleio



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## aliaselin

cnleio said:


> View attachment 311571


Too many faults about the data

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## Deino

BY the way is there at least any news about any of these fighter projects lately ???

Some rumours about the second FC-31 ... now nothing !?
Some images about the first LRIP-J-20A .... then nothing (and now since more than 6 months) !?
Usually nice but censored images of J-10B and C .... now nothing !?


Do I need to worry ? ... or are they planning for a certain event like that surprising service introduction of the two Y-20s some day later this year ... maybe for August 1st ??

Deino


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## S10

I keep hearing rumors of this J-31 2.0, but nothing has been revealed except a few models and CGI. Anybody think the project has been dropped?


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## Muhammad Omar

S10 said:


> I keep hearing rumors of this J-31 2.0, but nothing has been revealed except a few models and CGI. Anybody think the project has been dropped?



Nope it'll be presented at Zuhai Air Show this Year


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## Deino

Muhammad Omar said:


> Nope it'll be presented at Zuhai Air Show this Year




Are You sure ??? I for myself did not even heard such a rumour and I can't think that they will show a bird that so far not even had its roll-out or even maiden flight. And even then ... only about half a year time left !


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## Muhammad Omar

Deino said:


> Are You sure ??? I for myself did not even heard such a rumour and I can't think that they will show a bird that so far not even had its roll-out or even maiden flight. And even then ... only about half a year time left !



Well i saw many times Chinese Member commenting about that


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## 星海军事

Muhammad Omar said:


> Nope it'll be presented at Zuhai Air Show this Year


 I doubt that


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## Muhammad Omar

星海军事 said:


> I doubt that



Hmm Sorry then


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## BoQ77

AVIC search for more funds to develop J-31 but as we observed, it seems that the search result is negative.


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## lcloo

J31 is a private project, no funding from government.

Whether this project will continue, postpone or withdrawn depends on financial burden on the company. I.e. Will this project bring profit to the company? Will it result in serious cashflow deficit? Will there be buyers with sufficient orders?

The board of directors will be the one to make such decision.


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## Tiqiu

Another rumour? This week 2.0 will have its maiden flight with WS13E.

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## nang2

suspect of version 2.0
or another variant of Su 27

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## cirr

nang2 said:


> suspect of version 2.0
> or another variant of Su 27



Let the guessing game begin!

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## nang2

cirr said:


> Let the guessing game begin!


One thing for sure. China delicious!


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## Sasquatch

nang2 said:


> suspect of version 2.0
> or another variant of Su 27



At this point I'd assumed SAC canned the 310 project because of bleak export prospects, gives me hope the 2.0 will see the light of day.

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## XiaoYaoZi

nang2 said:


> suspect of version 2.0
> or another variant of Su 27

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## cirr

with police escort and all that.

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## Dungeness

Can't wait to see Project 310 2.0 with WS-13E! It will be a different animal.

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## Tiqiu

Tiqiu said:


> Another rumour? This week 2.0 will have its maiden flight with WS13E.


This rumour might turn out to be true.
"七月一日，这是一个特殊的日子，配装黎阳公司某型发动机的飞机轰鸣声震醒了北方静寂的大地，成功实现首飞。
上午，9时53分，配装黎阳某发动机的飞机昂首冲向天空，按照预定航路完成爬行、飞行等任务，10时01分成功着陆，整个飞行过程中发动机工作7分33秒，参数正常，工作稳定。“成功了！”“成功了！”机场响起了一片欢呼声。
在建党95周年之际，黎阳人以实际行动向祖国交了一份厚礼，践行“动力强军 科技报国”的使命，以迎难而上的决心，坚定不移的信心，持之以恒的耐心，为航空发动机事业冲锋在前，贡献智慧和力量。
作为该型机总承制单位，公司充分发挥了“厂所结合”优势，在各承制单位的大力配合和全体参研人员的共同努力下，攻坚克难，亮剑图强，通力协作，出色完成任务并成功实现首飞，标志着该型新机研制工作取得阶段性胜利，是中推涡扇新机研制中又一个非常重要的里程碑！"

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## lcloo

Since 1.0 has gone through static test, and the changes is mainly on the canted tail, is it necessary for second round of static tests?

So, may be fuselage and landing gear have been strengthened for aircraft carrier operation? The continuation of project may come from interest by PLAN for successor of J15, I guessed.


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## cirr

Dungeness said:


> Can't wait to see Project 310 2.0 with WS-13E! It will be a different animal.



Maiden flight with WS-13E in Oct.

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## HAIDER

New home grown engine test . WS31E

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## Dungeness

HAIDER said:


> New home grown engine test . WS31E




The smoke looks like RD-93. Where did you get this? The engine shouldn't be WS-13E?

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## HAIDER

Dungeness said:


> The smoke looks like RD-93. Where did you get this? The engine shouldn't be WS-13E?


http://war.163.com/16/0702/10/BQVB97KH00014OVF.html#


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## Dungeness

HAIDER said:


> http://war.163.com/16/0702/10/BQVB97KH00014OVF.html#



Those photos are from the past with RD-93.


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## HAIDER

Dungeness said:


> Those photos are from the past with RD-93.


May be, but new engine loaded for testing .


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## 星海军事

lcloo said:


> Since 1.0 has gone through static test, and the changes is mainly on the canted tail, is it necessary for second round of static tests?
> 
> So, may be fuselage and landing gear have been strengthened for aircraft carrier operation? The continuation of project may come from interest by PLAN for successor of J15, I guessed.



The first FC-31 is only a technology demonstrator, but the so-called 2.0 is a highly developed aircraft with all capabilities fully installed and operational. 2.0 poccesses newly-designed wings, stabilizers and bays, and is nearly half a meter longer than 1.0, that as well means a large difference in the structure.

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> The first FC-31 is only a technology demonstrator, but the so-called 2.0 is a highly developed aircraft with all capabilities fully installed and operational. 2.0 poccesses newly-designed wings, stabilizers and bays, and is nearly half a meter longer than 1.0, that as well means a large difference in the structure.





I just did some research on the first demonstrator-prototype and its own timeline …

Following the most reliable reports I found it was transported out of SAC on the 19th June 2012 and was spotted at Tianjin on the 21st via the Beijing-Harbin Expressway … later on it was chased – sported again on 23. & 24. June – up to the AVIC 623rd Institute at Xi'an, where it reportedly arrived on Monday 25. June 2012.

The first images of the true flying prototype ‘31001’ appeared in the net on 15. September 2012 and maiden flight occurred on 31. October 2012.


Let’s see what will happen next !


Deino

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## lcloo

星海军事 said:


> The first FC-31 is only a technology demonstrator, but the so-called 2.0 is a highly developed aircraft with all capabilities fully installed and operational. 2.0 poccesses newly-designed wings, stabilizers and bays, and is nearly half a meter longer than 1.0, that as well means a large difference in the structure.



That is very interesting, can't wait for the actual photo to show up. With all these changes 2.0 is a very different bird from 1.0.

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## siegecrossbow

HAIDER said:


> New home grown engine test . WS31E



Wasn't this from Zhuhai?

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## HAIDER

siegecrossbow said:


> Wasn't this from Zhuhai?


You know better, its Chinese news reporting.

http://war.163.com/16/0702/10/BQVB97KH00014OVF.html#


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## Deino

Agreed, that was indeed from Zhuhai ... but sadly and almost typically for so many news agencies, not to check their images to the reports.


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## sheik

星海军事 said:


> The first FC-31 is only a technology demonstrator, but the so-called 2.0 is a highly developed aircraft with all capabilities fully installed and operational. 2.0 poccesses newly-designed wings, stabilizers and bays, and is nearly half a meter longer than 1.0, that as well means a large difference in the structure.



I like the part 'nearly half a meter longer' best 



Deino said:


> I just did some research on the first demonstrator-prototype and its own timeline …
> 
> Following the most reliable reports I found it was transported out of SAC on the 19th June 2012 and was spotted at Tianjin on the 21st via the Beijing-Harbin Expressway … later on it was chased – sported again on 23. & 24. June – up to the AVIC 623rd Institute at Xi'an, where it reportedly arrived on Monday 25. June 2012.
> 
> The first images of the true flying prototype ‘31001’ appeared in the net on 15. September 2012 and maiden flight occurred on 31. October 2012.
> 
> 
> Let’s see what will happen next !
> 
> 
> Deino



Just change '2012' to '2016' and you will get some idea about the future

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> The first FC-31 is only a technology demonstrator, but the so-called 2.0 is a highly developed aircraft with all capabilities fully installed and operational. 2.0 poccesses newly-designed wings, stabilizers and bays, and is nearly half a meter longer than 1.0, that as well means a large difference in the structure.



Any idea when it will debut?


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## Deino

sheik said:


> Just change '2012' to '2016' and you will get some idea about the future




That is exactly my hope !


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## HAIDER

Deino said:


> Agreed, that was indeed from Zhuhai ... but sadly and almost typically for so many news agencies, not to check their images to the reports.


So, do you think reporting about home grown engine is correct ? .


----------



## grey boy 2



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## Beast

HAIDER said:


> So, do you think reporting about home grown engine is correct ? .


Yes, WS-13E has taken it first real flight on 01/07/2016 and everything goes well. China on request of PAF produced a engine with competitive thrust (estimate more than 9000kg-9600kg thrust) and lifespan. Not to mention rid of the smoky trail.

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## yesboss

Now this is real exciting . I really love this bird.

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## Deino

Hmm ??? There are reports about the FC-31.V2 being back to Shenyang ...????

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## nang2

Deino said:


> Hmm ??? There are reports about the FC-31.V2 being back to Shenyang ...????
> 
> View attachment 315694
> View attachment 315695


I guess nobody got a picture when it was on the way out. Only after the test was done, it afforded a bit of showoff.

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## cirr

nang2 said:


> I guess nobody got a picture when it was on the way out. Only after the test was done, it afforded a bit of showoff.



It certainly looks that way.

As a matter of fact, the 1st pic appeared was also taken on the way back.

Hence the initial confusion as to why the convoy was heading west to east.

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## grey boy 2

Size comparison 01, 02 to F-22

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Size comparison 01, 02 to F-22




Actually I don't think that estimating the size of an aircraft from very much distorted images is helpful and even if the overall length of V1 might be correct, the size of V2 - even with slightly longer tails - will surely not reach the overall size of the F-22. The Raptor is a massive beast ... and the FC-31 simply a medium-size fighter ...

Indeed said to be back at Shenyang ...

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## lcloo

This latest news might make many people disappointed if the returned static airframe turn up to be 1.0 instead of 2.0.

Just take a ponder, how could static tests for the assumed 2.0 airframe be completed and returned back to manufacturer so soon? Also think of the absence of sighting of retuned 1.0 air frame prior to this one?

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## Akasa

lcloo said:


> This latest news might make many people disappointed if the returned static airframe turn up to be 1.0 instead of 2.0.
> 
> Just take a ponder, how could static tests for the assumed 2.0 airframe be completed and returned back to manufacturer so soon? Also think of the absence of sighting of retuned 1.0 air frame prior to this one?



The FC-31 v1.0 had just completed a flight with a pair of WS-13E turbofans. There is no way it could have been disassembled and transported in such short time.


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## lcloo

SinoSoldier said:


> The FC-31 v1.0 had just completed a flight with a pair of WS-13E turbofans. There is no way it could have been disassembled and transported in such short time.


I was talking about 1.0 static test air frame, the one which is not flight capable.


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## Akasa

lcloo said:


> I was talking about 1.0 static test air frame, the one which is not flight capable.



Think; why would they test the v1.0 static airframe after the flying prototype has flown and the project has been shifted to the v2.0?

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## lcloo

SinoSoldier said:


> Think; why would they test the v1.0 static airframe after the flying prototype has flown and the project has been shifted to the v2.0?



I was suggesting that they never bring back the 1.0 static test frame until now. I never said that they tested the 1.0 static air frame a second round which is practically meaningless. After static tests, the airframe is practically in near destructive condition, you can't have a second round of test on this air frame. 

Give you an example, after a drop test has been carried out, what do you think the condition of the structure will be? A drop test could be done by dropping the airframe free fall from 10 metres and hit the concrete ground hundreds of times. 

Also there is a possibility that there was never a 2.0 static airframe as at this moment, there is no visual proof.


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## Deino

lcloo said:


> I was talking about 1.0 static test air frame, the one which is not flight capable.





SinoSoldier said:


> Think; why would they test the v1.0 static airframe after the flying prototype has flown and the project has been shifted to the v2.0?



I don't think they tested it after the flying prototype; which is still tested !

A reason could be that indeed structural testing of V1 has been completed and now they transport it back to SAC where it will become a museum's exhibit or where it will be mounted on a pile similar to the J-10-prototypes as some sort of gate-guard now with the project has shifted to V2.

Then however the question remains: where is V2 ??

Deino


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## Akasa

lcloo said:


> I was suggesting that they never bring back the 1.0 static test frame until now. I never said that they tested the 1.0 static air frame a second round which is practically meaningless. After static tests, the airframe is practically in near destructive condition, you can't have a second round of test on this air frame.
> 
> Give you an example, after a drop test has been carried out, what do you think the condition of the structure will be? A drop test could be done by dropping the airframe free fall from 10 metres and hit the concrete ground hundreds of times.
> 
> Also there is a possibility that there was never a 2.0 static airframe as at this moment, there is no visual proof.



Fair point; there is a possibility of that. However, the structural integrity of the wrapped object looks good.



Deino said:


> I don't think they tested it after the flying prototype; which is still tested !
> 
> A reason could be that indeed structural testing of V1 has been completed and now they transport it back to SAC where it will become a museum's exhibit or where it will be mounted on a pile similar to the J-10-prototypes as some sort of gate-guard now with the project has shifted to V2.
> 
> Then however the question remains: where is V2 ??
> 
> Deino



The V2 was allegedly spotted by observers. There is still a possibility of the new prototype popping out of nowhere and the "wrapped" object being unrelated to it (J-11D's prototype did not get photographed until its first flight).

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

grey boy 2 said:


> Size comparison 01, 02 to F-22



I don't know, I like J31 version 01 vertical tail much than the ver. 02, seem something it's not right with ver 02 tail.


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## Ali Zadi

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I don't know, I like J31 version 01 vertical tail much than the ver. 02, seem something it's not right with ver 02 tail.



The lower new height might lead to reduction in side RCS exposure

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## Akasa

New rumors suggest that maiden flight might occur in September/October.


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## cirr

Ok, who's gonna take and share pics of FC-31 2.0 now that it has gone out of the factory gate

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## Beast

cirr said:


> Ok, who's gonna take and share pics of FC-31 2.0 now that it has gone out of the factory gate


I think shenyang try to make this bird on time for zuhai 2016 airshow to get firm orders for this.

The only possible it will not appear for zuhai airshow will be it gets order from PLAN or PLANAF.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Ok, who's gonna take and share pics of FC-31 2.0 now that it has gone out of the factory gate



To admit, I'm no longer sure if this strange transport was V2 but even more that it was in fact only V1 being on its way back to SAC.

It simply does not make any sense to bring V2 back to SAC after any structural testings ....


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## cirr

Deino said:


> To admit, I'm no longer sure if this strange transport was V2 but even more that it was in fact only V1 being on its way back to SAC.
> 
> It simply does not make any sense to bring V2 back to SAC after any structural testings ....



The latest rumour is that V2 is on its way to Xi'an onboard the transporter that brought back V1.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> The latest rumour is that V2 is on its way to Xi'an onboard the transporter that brought back V1.




So this particular airframe on that truck was indeed V1 !?


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## Ali Zadi

Other than the changed framework what else is new with the V2?


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## Akasa

Latest rumors suggest that the FC-31 has been rejected by both the PLAAF and the PLAN.

I'm not certain as to what will become of the FC-31 project at this point, but here are a couple of eventualities:
1. The improved variant will fly, be flight-tested as per the original plan, and be pushed for export. This will, of course, be completely-self funded and hence would not be done to the same pace as other "big-ticket" military projects.
2. The entire project will be suspended until additional interest is shown, either domestically or internationally, much akin to the MiG-35. The resources would either be allocated to other projects within the same company or to the J-20 project.


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## Ali Zadi

SinoSoldier said:


> Latest rumors suggest that t



Even if its not accepted in its current form there is a change that Pakistan might accept it or give it further funding akin to what it did with the FC-1


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## Akasa

Ali Zadi said:


> Even if its not accepted in its current form there is a change that Pakistan might accept it or give it further funding akin to what it did with the FC-1



Possibly, but the extent to which Pakistan's budget allows for the induction (and funding) of the FC-31 is another question. The Chinese have been pushing the FC-31 to the PAF for years now, and the lack of any progress seems to suggest that Pakistan is more reluctant to induct the project than initially presumed.

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## Brainsucker

SinoSoldier said:


> Latest rumors suggest that the FC-31 has been rejected by both the PLAAF and the PLAN.
> 
> I'm not certain as to what will become of the FC-31 project at this point, but here are a couple of eventualities:
> 1. The improved variant will fly, be flight-tested as per the original plan, and be pushed for export. This will, of course, be completely-self funded and hence would not be done to the same pace as other "big-ticket" military projects.
> 2. The entire project will be suspended until additional interest is shown, either domestically or internationally, much akin to the MiG-35. The resources would either be allocated to other projects within the same company or to the J-20 project.



What is the FC-31 inferiority that make both PLAN and PLAAF reject it? Low payload? Not enough stealth? Short reach? Not enough maneuverability? High cost? Or just because it look like the F-35?

If it's truly failed to get the attention from the PLAN and PLAAF, then let's drop the project.

I think that FC-31 should be developed into a Carrier Based Aircraft, rather than compete the J-20 in mission capability. Look at the J-15. It's too big for a CBA. They need a smaller craft that give more advantage to their Carrier Battle Group. With the FC-31 smaller size, the Navy can pack more jets in Liaoning, give the CBG a 5th generation capable fighter, and remove the disadvantage that the J-15 has right now.

Remember, right now China doesn't has a catapult capable AC. And Liaoning and her new born sister has only 50.000 - 60.000 tonnage size. They can build a bigger AC, comparable to the American Nimitz Class size. But even with that, FC-31 still have better future than the current J-15. 

Of course, they'll need new engine. Maybe give the fighter AL-31 rather than the RD-93 one; and they'll need to increase the payload, range, etc. But the point is, FC-31 has more potential as Carrier Based Aircraft than the current J-15.

Plus, FC-31 developer, SAC, has the experience to build a CBA with their J-15. So what make them discourage to develop this fighter to that mission capable aircraft?

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## Beast

Brainsucker said:


> What is the FC-31 inferiority that make both PLAN and PLAAF reject it? Low payload? Not enough stealth? Short reach? Not enough maneuverability? High cost? Or just because it look like the F-35?
> 
> If it's truly failed to get the attention from the PLAN and PLAAF, then let's drop the project.
> 
> I think that FC-31 should be developed into a Carrier Based Aircraft, rather than compete the J-20 in mission capability. Look at the J-15. It's too big for a CBA. They need a smaller craft that give more advantage to their Carrier Battle Group. With the FC-31 smaller size, the Navy can pack more jets in Liaoning, give the CBG a 5th generation capable fighter, and remove the disadvantage that the J-15 has right now.
> 
> Remember, right now China doesn't has a catapult capable AC. And Liaoning and her new born sister has only 50.000 - 60.000 tonnage size. They can build a bigger AC, comparable to the American Nimitz Class size. But even with that, FC-31 still have better future than the current J-15.
> 
> Of course, they'll need new engine. Maybe give the fighter AL-31 rather than the RD-93 one; and they'll need to increase the payload, range, etc. But the point is, FC-31 has more potential as Carrier Based Aircraft than the current J-15.
> 
> Plus, FC-31 developer, SAC, has the experience to build a CBA with their J-15. So what make them discourage to develop this fighter to that mission capable aircraft?


I think shall be lack of range and maneuver compare to J-20

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## aliaselin

SinoSoldier said:


> Latest rumors suggest that the FC-31 has been rejected by both the PLAAF and the PLAN.
> 
> I'm not certain as to what will become of the FC-31 project at this point, but here are a couple of eventualities:
> 1. The improved variant will fly, be flight-tested as per the original plan, and be pushed for export. This will, of course, be completely-self funded and hence would not be done to the same pace as other "big-ticket" military projects.
> 2. The entire project will be suspended until additional interest is shown, either domestically or internationally, much akin to the MiG-35. The resources would either be allocated to other projects within the same company or to the J-20 project.


It has last chance in several months


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## Akasa

aliaselin said:


> It has last chance in several months



Are you implying that the final decision has not been finalized?


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> Are you implying that the final decision has not been finalized?



What final decision?

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> What final decision?



The decision to formally reject or accept the FC-31. According to allegedly credible rumors, both the PLAAF and PLAN have rejected the FC-31.


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> The decision to formally reject or accept the FC-31. According to allegedly credible rumors, both the PLAAF and PLAN have rejected the FC-31.



Credible rumours? Don't tell me that guy by the name of pupu is credible.

He has never been "credible".

As a matter of fact, he is as credible as my 7-year old nephew.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Credible rumours? Don't tell me that guy by the name of pupu is credible.
> 
> He has never been "credible".
> 
> As a matter of fact, he is as credible as my 7-year old nephew.



He is close to the PLAAF, so that adds to his credence, whether or not some people believe what he has claimed.

Are there any rumors/claims that disagree with what he said regarding the FC-31?


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## 星海军事

SinoSoldier said:


> Latest rumors suggest that the FC-31 has been rejected by both the PLAAF and the PLAN.
> 
> I'm not certain as to what will become of the FC-31 project at this point, but here are a couple of eventualities:
> 1. The improved variant will fly, be flight-tested as per the original plan, and be pushed for export. This will, of course, be completely-self funded and hence would not be done to the same pace as other "big-ticket" military projects.
> 2. The entire project will be suspended until additional interest is shown, either domestically or internationally, much akin to the MiG-35. The resources would either be allocated to other projects within the same company or to the J-20 project.




wait and see


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## yantong1980

Maybe FC-31 too 'early' to become potential CBG fighter. But rejected or not, I think it doesn't matter, probably next design of PLA CBG fighter will gain technical experience from both FC-31 and J-15.

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> wait and see



Are you implying that the PLAAF or PLAN have not rejected it yet?


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## Pepsi Cola

For PLAN to reject FC-31 means they have an alternative to FC-31 in the making

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## Ultima Thule

Okarus said:


> For PLAN to reject FC-31 means they have an alternative to FC-31 in the making


what alternative? Just your assumptions


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## Ali Zadi

J20 is not in the same league as J31 they are of much different there is not way people would choose J20 for J31 role or other way around. Air superiority or ground attack is what J20 is suppose to excel at and those things are not something J31 can excel in.

As far as J31 is concern I feel its development was started much later than the J20


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## Ultima Thule

SinoSoldier said:


> Latest rumors suggest that the FC-31 has been rejected by both the PLAAF and the PLAN.
> 
> I'm not certain as to what will become of the FC-31 project at this point, but here are a couple of eventualities:
> 1. The improved variant will fly, be flight-tested as per the original plan, and be pushed for export. This will, of course, be completely-self funded and hence would not be done to the same pace as other "big-ticket" military projects.
> 2. The entire project will be suspended until additional interest is shown, either domestically or internationally, much akin to the MiG-35. The resources would either be allocated to other projects within the same company or to the J-20 project.[/QUOT
> 
> 
> SinoSoldier said:
> 
> 
> 
> Latest rumors suggest that the FC-31 has been rejected by both the PLAAF and the PLAN.
> 
> I'm not certain as to what will become of the FC-31 project at this point, but here are a couple of eventualities:
> 1. The improved variant will fly, be flight-tested as per the original plan, and be pushed for export. This will, of course, be completely-self funded and hence would not be done to the same pace as other "big-ticket" military projects.
> 2. The entire project will be suspended until additional interest is shown, either domestically or internationally, much akin to the MiG-35. The resources would either be allocated to other projects within the same company or to the J-20 project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *i think that Chengdu is developing lightweight and single engine variant for PLAN, that why it is rejected by PLAAF and PLAN, just my opinon*
Click to expand...




SinoSoldier said:


> Latest rumors suggest that the FC-31 has been rejected by both the PLAAF and the PLAN.
> 
> I'm not certain as to what will become of the FC-31 project at this point, but here are a couple of eventualities:
> 1. The improved variant will fly, be flight-tested as per the original plan, and be pushed for export. This will, of course, be completely-self funded and hence would not be done to the same pace as other "big-ticket" military projects.
> 2. The entire project will be suspended until additional interest is shown, either domestically or internationally, much akin to the MiG-35. The resources would either be allocated to other projects within the same company or to the J-20 project.


*i think that Chengdu is developing lightweight and single engine variant of J-20 for PLAN, that why it is rejected by PLAAF and PLAN, just my opinion*


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## Akasa

pakistanipower said:


> what alternative? Just your assumptions



A J-20-based carrier-borne fighter. A clean sheet design is unlikely at this point.

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## Beast

PAF not committed on FC-31 too at the moment. Maybe the plane has lousy maneuver. Just like F-35A

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## Daniel808

Brainsucker said:


> What is the FC-31 inferiority that make both PLAN and PLAAF reject it? Low payload? Not enough stealth? Short reach? Not enough maneuverability? High cost? Or just because it look like the F-35?
> 
> If it's truly failed to get the attention from the PLAN and PLAAF, then let's drop the project.
> 
> I think that FC-31 should be developed into a Carrier Based Aircraft, rather than compete the J-20 in mission capability. Look at the J-15. It's too big for a CBA. They need a smaller craft that give more advantage to their Carrier Battle Group. With the FC-31 smaller size, the Navy can pack more jets in Liaoning, give the CBG a 5th generation capable fighter, and remove the disadvantage that the J-15 has right now.
> 
> Remember, right now China doesn't has a catapult capable AC. And Liaoning and her new born sister has only 50.000 - 60.000 tonnage size. They can build a bigger AC, comparable to the American Nimitz Class size. But even with that, FC-31 still have better future than the current J-15.
> 
> Of course, they'll need new engine. Maybe give the fighter AL-31 rather than the RD-93 one; and they'll need to increase the payload, range, etc. But the point is, FC-31 has more potential as Carrier Based Aircraft than the current J-15.
> 
> Plus, FC-31 developer, SAC, has the experience to build a CBA with their J-15. So what make them discourage to develop this fighter to that mission capable aircraft?




If you have one Good and Successful Project (Chengdu J-20), It's better to Focus your money and resource to that project.
And like we see, (Chengdu J-20 Project) is in a Good shape and very successful until this day.

BTW, If you compare J-20 and FC-31. 
J-20 is Superior in every aspect (from Payload, Fuel Capacity, Maneuverability, Combat range, Avionics, and many others)

But, like other members said, *Wait and see* 
We cannot have Conclusion based on Rumors.


About China's Future Aircraft Carrier.
In the next years (Type 002, Type 003 Aircraft Carrier)
Will get Bigger Tonnage ( at least 75,000-80,000 Tonnes) and also Catapult (Steam or EMALS).

So, if PLAN choose *J-20H Naval Variant*. It's indeed a very Good choice.
Chengdu J-20 size is almost same like F-14 Tomcat in America.
And with Catapult Launching Mechanism, it's not a problem to launch Chengdu J-20 from their Future Aircraft Carrier.


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## Deino

Daniel808 said:


> If you have one Good and Successful Project (Chengdu J-20), It's better to Focus your money and resource to that project.
> And like we see, (Chengdu J-20 Project) is in a Good shape and very successful until this day.
> 
> BTW, If you compare J-20 and FC-31.
> J-20 is Superior in every aspect (from Payload, Fuel Capacity, Maneuverability, Combat range, Avionics, and many others)
> 
> But, like other members said, *Wait and see*
> We cannot have Conclusion based on Rumors.
> 
> 
> About China's Future Aircraft Carrier.
> In the next years (Type 002, Type 003 Aircraft Carrier)
> Will get Bigger Tonnage ( at least 75,000-80,000 Tonnes) and also Catapult (Steam or EMALS).
> 
> So, if PLAN choose *J-20H Naval Variant*. It's indeed a very Good choice.
> Chengdu J-20 size is almost same like F-14 Tomcat in America.
> And with Catapult Launching Mechanism, it's not a problem to launch Chengdu J-20 from their Future Aircraft Carrier.




Indeed, but regardless all merits the J-20 has, both play simply in quite different leagues and here surely also in terms of cost. So the J-20 is a high-end, heavy-weight while the FC-31 clearly a level below - at least in weight and range/weapons-load. 

It surely might be that for now the PLAAF / PLANAF decided to replace the majority of older types like the many J-7s and J-8s by a mix of J-10B/Cs and J-16s and will go for a "only" J-20-stealthy fleet for the next years to come, anyway I don't think they will last for long. The day will come also to complement the J-20 with a lower-end stealthy design and IMO a type at least similar to the F-35 or exactly the FC-31 would be ideal.

Some might argue this then will be already a 6-generation type, but IMO I would be careful again. This recent hype about a Chinese 6. generation designs soon to be finished are more a wet-dream than reality esp. in the short to mid term. So again IMO a medium weight stealthy design about the size of the FC-31 is still more than required.

Another argument might also be that a twin-engine design with two medium-thrust engines is the better option than the single engine high-thrust F-35-design ... and the WS-13 seems close to be ready and the WS-17 also already on the horizon.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.
Deino


The same is IMO for the PLANAF: a possible naval J-20 might replace the J-15, but also here a second smaller & lighter type is necessary ..

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## hk299792458

I just wrote a few word in my website around FC-31, for those who are interested by the topic :

http://www.eastpendulum.com/la-fin-du-programme-shenyang-fc-31

Henri K.

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## Daniel808

Deino said:


> Indeed, but regardless all merits the J-20 has, both play simply in quite different leagues and here surely also in terms of cost. So the J-20 is a high-end, heavy-weight while the FC-31 clearly a level below - at least in weight and range/weapons-load.
> 
> It surely might be that for now the PLAAF / PLANAF decided to replace the majority of older types like the many J-7s and J-8s by a mix of J-10B/Cs and J-16s and will go for a "only" J-20-stealthy fleet for the next years to come, anyway I don't think they will last for long. The day will come also to complement the J-20 with a lower-end stealthy design and IMO a type at least similar to the F-35 or exactly the FC-31 would be ideal.
> 
> Some might argue this then will be already a 6-generation type, but IMO I would be careful again. This recent hype about a Chinese 6. generation designs soon to be finished are more a wet-dream than reality esp. in the short to mid term. So again IMO a medium weight stealthy design about the size of the FC-31 is still more than required.
> 
> Another argument might also be that a twin-engine design with two medium-thrust engines is the better option than the single engine high-thrust F-35-design ... and the WS-13 seems close to be ready and the WS-17 also already on the horizon.
> 
> Anyway, just my 2 cents.
> Deino
> 
> 
> The same is IMO for the PLANAF: a possible naval J-20 might replace the J-15, but also here a second smaller & lighter type is necessary ..



Sorry, not my Intention to compare J-20 with FC-31.

But, yes. like you said.
China's need a lower-End 5th Gen Fighter (FC-31), to replace hundreds of J-7/J-8 and J-10A in the Next years.

That's why I am very *Doubt* with that Rumour, that PLAAF and PLAN had been rejected FC-31.
Because they need FC-31 or any other 5th Gen Fighter in the same class of FC-31.

We need to Wait and See for this FC-31 Project.
this year, already tested 'Chinese Military Enthusiast' Patience
Especially for Air Force watchers.

I need to go to nearest Clinic to buy 'Patience' Lol

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## lcloo

My hope is that FC31 might one day be reborn as new FCXX in future, just like YF-17 re-emerged as FA-18.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> My hope is that FC31 might one day be reborn as new FCXX in future, just like YF-17 re-emerged as FA-18.



Amen to this !

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## hk299792458

For low-end aircraft, as what I mentionned in my text, Chengdu seems to be developping a new single seat single engine stealth aircraft.

This is, for me, most compliant to the global need of PLAAF.

Henri K.

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## Deino

hk299792458 said:


> For low-end aircraft, as what I mentionned in my text, Chengdu seems to be developping a new single seat single engine stealth aircraft.
> 
> This is, for me, most compliant to the global need of PLAAF.
> 
> Henri K.




That is surely known, but following the information I have this type is said to be a true light-weight type with only about 10t empty weight.
At least IMO such a type is probably a number too small esp. in mind of range and weapons load ... and I think a JSF-sized type like the FC-31 was exactly what I expected.

Anyway, the PLAAF surely knows better what it needs for its future war fighting.

Deino

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## hk299792458

Deino said:


> That is surely known, but following the information I have this type is said to be a true light-weight type with only about 10t empty weight.
> At least IMO such a type is probably a number too small esp. in mind of range and weapons load ... and I think a JSF-sized type like the FC-31 was exactly what I expected.
> 
> Anyway, the PLAAF surely knows better what it needs for its future war fighting.
> 
> Deino



Empty weight of J-10 is around 8t, that of Rafale around 10t.

Beside the weight, the fact that FC-31 is a twi-engine aircraft causes trouble in my opinion.

Henri K.

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## Brainsucker

hk299792458 said:


> I just wrote a few word in my website around FC-31, for those who are interested by the topic :
> 
> http://www.eastpendulum.com/la-fin-du-programme-shenyang-fc-31
> 
> Henri K.



An excellent writing. I learn a lot, so thank you for sharing the article to us. 
Btw, I read your article with the help of Google Translate, so I have some confusion because of the language barrier.

En revanche, au niveau de son autonomie, le FC-31 reste inférieur, voir nettement inférieur.
the G translation is : "However, the level of autonomy, the CF-31 remains below see significantly lower"

What is the meaning of autonomy here? can you explain?


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## The SC

hk299792458 said:


> I just wrote a few word in my website around FC-31, for those who are interested by the topic :
> 
> http://www.eastpendulum.com/la-fin-du-programme-shenyang-fc-31
> 
> Henri K.


This is very old news, you should focus on the FC-31 block 2!


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## Akasa

hk299792458 said:


> Beside the weight, the fact that FC-31 is a twi-engine aircraft causes trouble in my opinion.
> 
> Henri K.



Can you elaborate on this point? Twin-engined aircraft provide a level of redundancy, especially with the new WS-13E.


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## hk299792458

Brainsucker said:


> An excellent writing. I learn a lot, so thank you for sharing the article to us.
> Btw, I read your article with the help of Google Translate, so I have some confusion because of the language barrier.
> 
> En revanche, au niveau de son autonomie, le FC-31 reste inférieur, voir nettement inférieur.
> the G translation is : "However, the level of autonomy, the CF-31 remains below see significantly lower"
> 
> What is the meaning of autonomy here? can you explain?



Fair range and combat radius.



The SC said:


> This is very old news, you should focus on the FC-31 block 2!



You know, I love this plane. The only mockup I have on the table of my office is the one of FC-31.

In the past I had lot of mockup - A350, A380, A320, A400M...etc, I just free some places and only keep FC-31. ;-)

I will for sure focus on it... as soon as some new events come out.



SinoSoldier said:


> Can you elaborate on this point? Twin-engined aircraft provide a level of redundancy, especially with the new WS-13E.



IMO, PLAAF at least will continue to prefer composition of Heavy twin-engin jet + Light single-engine jet.

Once again this is my personal view. But I think that FC-31 doesn't choose the right market segment, as what I explained in my text.

Henri K.


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## cirr

It is official: negotiations with overseas customers who have shown keen interests in FC-31 are ongoing

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## Ali Zadi

cirr said:


> It is official: negotiations with overseas customers who have shown keen interests in FC-31 are ongoing




Pak or someone else?


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## UKBengali

cirr said:


> It is official: negotiations with overseas customers who have shown keen interests in FC-31 are ongoing




I would love to see this plane in BD airforce.

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## Muhammad Omar

cirr said:


> It is official: negotiations with overseas customers who have shown keen interests in FC-31 are ongoing



Any names of Overseas Customers??


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## cirr

Muhammad Omar said:


> Any names of Overseas Customers??



No idea. Hopefully we may learn more during the Zhuhai Airshow starting 1.11.2016.

It might be worth noting that the official in the middle(head of AVIC's International Division) addressed the FC-31 as J-31.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> No idea. Hopefully we may learn more during the Zhuhai Airshow starting 1.11.2016.
> 
> It might be worth noting that the official in the middle(head of AVIC's International Division) addressed the FC-31 as J-31.



He also stated clearly that the FC-31 was not meant for the Chinese military.


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## hk299792458

In a very short term vision, as what I explained in my article, only Turkey and Iran could potentially affort, and also expressed the need, to get something like FC-31.

I heard that Pakistan had refused the offer, and I would say this is a very wise decision.

Henri K.


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## Akasa

hk299792458 said:


> In a very short term vision, as what I explained in my article, only Turkey and Iran could potentially affort, and also expressed the need, to get something like FC-31.
> 
> I heard that Pakistan had refused the offer, and I would say this is a very wise decision.
> 
> Henri K.



Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh are potential users as well. Iran has decided to go for Sukhoi Su-30s.


----------



## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> He also stated clearly that the FC-31 was not meant for the Chinese military.



The following is what was said during the press conference

China is the only country after the US that is developing two versions of stealth fighter aircrafts J-20 and J-31, both going extremely smoothly.

The J-20 is for home use only while the J-31 will be marketed internationally.







Does "marketed internationally" preclude use by the PLAAF and/or the PLANAF?

A cost-conscious China isn't likely to produce more than 300 J-20s.

China certainly need far more than 300 stealth fighter jets.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> The following is what was said during the press conference
> 
> China is the only country after the US that is developing two versions of stealth fighter aircrafts J-20 and J-31, both going extremely smoothly.
> 
> The J-20 is for home use only while the J-31 will be marketed internationally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does "marketed internationally" preclude use by the PLAAF and/or the PLANAF?
> 
> A cost-conscious China isn't likely to produce more than 300 J-20s.
> 
> China certainly need far more than 300 stealth fighter jets.



The existing argument against the FC-31's use in the PLAAF is its weight class, which is not reflected by any other fighter. The PLANAF has demonstrated that it prefers heavier J-15-class aircraft, likely due to their improved endurance. Moreover, the use of 4+ generation fighters effectively mitigates the cost issue.


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## Deino

Ohhh come on SAC ... when will this become real ?

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## Arthur

Deino said:


> Ohhh come on SAC ... when will this become real ?
> 
> View attachment 333192


Local pharmacies running out of patience? 

Good CG though!

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## Muhammad Omar

Deino said:


> Ohhh come on SAC ... *when will this become real ?*
> 
> View attachment 333192



for a moment i thought to be real  until i read the bold part


----------



## ziaulislam

cirr said:


> The following is what was said during the press conference
> 
> China is the only country after the US that is developing two versions of stealth fighter aircrafts J-20 and J-31, both going extremely smoothly.
> 
> The J-20 is for home use only while the J-31 will be marketed internationally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does "marketed internationally" preclude use by the PLAAF and/or the PLANAF?
> 
> A cost-conscious China isn't likely to produce more than 300 J-20s.
> 
> China certainly need far more than 300 stealth fighter jets.


j 31can only suceed if inducted in plaaf , othwise i dont expect exports

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## That Guy

ziaulislam said:


> j 31can only suceed if inducted in plaaf , othwise i dont expect exports


What?....what?

Where on earth did you get that idea from? By the time the FC-31 is ready, the only other 5th gen ready for exports would be the F-35. Nations would have little to no choice but to choose between one or the other, and the F-35 already has limits on whom it can be sold to.


----------



## Akasa

That Guy said:


> What?....what?
> 
> Where on earth did you get that idea from? By the time the FC-31 is ready, the only other 5th gen ready for exports would be the F-35. Nations would have little to no choice but to choose between one or the other, and the F-35 already has limits on whom it can be sold to.



The conundrum is that those who have the budget for 5th-gen fighters will choose the F-35, whilst those without wouldn't be able to afford the FC-31 anyways.

This is akin to the export deadlock the JF-17 is facing.


----------



## ziaulislam

That Guy said:


> What?....what?
> 
> Where on earth did you get that idea from? By the time the FC-31 is ready, the only other 5th gen ready for exports would be the F-35. Nations would have little to no choice but to choose between one or the other, and the F-35 already has limits on whom it can be sold to.


half bake yes, but which nation is going to buy a fighter which noone has inducted before...
noone wants to be first customer..now, if Chinese or Pakistanis inducted in numbers 1st than of course it would be a sucess

these days nations are reducing their militery budgets and airforces, very few nations outside JF-35 or arab countries will ever buy a fifth gen aircarft


----------



## That Guy

ziaulislam said:


> half bake yes, but which nation is going to buy a fighter which noone has inducted before...
> noone wants to be first customer..now, if Chinese or Pakistanis inducted in numbers 1st than of course it would be a sucess
> 
> these days nations are reducing their militery budgets and airforces, very few nations outside JF-35 or arab countries will ever buy a fifth gen aircarft


That seems like unsubstantiated speculation.



SinoSoldier said:


> The conundrum is that those who have the budget for 5th-gen fighters will choose the F-35, whilst those without wouldn't be able to afford the FC-31 anyways.
> 
> This is akin to the export deadlock the JF-17 is facing.


That's not necessarily true, as a number of nations, whom can afford such a thing, would simply be blocked from buying the F-35 (geopolitics).

The Arabs are unlikely to buy the F-35, not because they don't want to, but rather the US has guaranteed Israeli military superiority in the region, meaning that the the Israelis getting the F-35 equals to the Arab world being delayed in getting it.


----------



## Akasa

That Guy said:


> That's not necessarily true, as a number of nations, whom can afford such a thing, would simply be blocked from buying the F-35 (geopolitics).



I'm dubious that this rule would hold steadfast once the Chinese begin aggressively promoting their FC-31 to these countries. The entire T-LORAMIDS fiasco demonstrates that the US is willing to enact drastic measures to prevent their major allies from relying on an opponent's equipment. Any negative repercussion resulting from selling the F-35 to these "blacklisted" nations doesn't hold a candle to the political and strategic fallout of having an enemy's arms infiltrate allies.



That Guy said:


> The Arabs are unlikely to buy the F-35, not because they don't want to, but rather the US has guaranteed Israeli military superiority in the region, meaning that the the Israelis getting the F-35 equals to the Arab world being delayed in getting it.



There is nothing preventing Lockheed/Boeing from building an Arab-specific F-35 that circumvents whatever concerns the DoD harbors about F-35 sales to Arab states. Additionally, the US will likely overturn the export regulations once they perceive the FC-31 as a credible threat, market-wise.


----------



## That Guy

SinoSoldier said:


> I'm dubious that this rule would hold steadfast once the Chinese begin aggressively promoting their FC-31 to these countries. The entire T-LORAMIDS fiasco demonstrates that the US is willing to enact drastic measures to prevent their major allies from relying on an opponent's equipment. Any negative repercussion resulting from selling the F-35 to these "blacklisted" nations doesn't hold a candle to the political and strategic fallout of having an enemy's arms infiltrate allies.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing preventing Lockheed/Boeing from building an Arab-specific F-35 that circumvents whatever concerns the DoD harbors about F-35 sales to Arab states. Additionally, the US will likely overturn the export regulations once they perceive the FC-31 as a credible threat, market-wise.


Good point, but I'd argue that such efforts will take a lot long after the FC-31 is available for export.

For the Arabs, the "Arab specific F-35" would be a watered down version, unable to compete with the Israeli F-35s; if China can offer a fully capable fighter, that isn't watered down, and can effectively challenge the F-35, it has a much higher chance of export success.

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## Akasa

That Guy said:


> if China can offer a fully capable fighter, that isn't watered down, and can effectively challenge the F-35, it has a much higher chance of export success.



Perhaps, but the Chinese might not be eagerly willing to export such "full-scale" technologies to a close US ally.


----------



## That Guy

SinoSoldier said:


> Perhaps, but the Chinese might not be eagerly willing to export such "full-scale" technologies to a close US ally.


but that's the thing, isn't it? If they were a close US ally, they wouldn't need to buy the FC-31.

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## Akasa

That Guy said:


> but that's the thing, isn't it? If they were a close US ally, they wouldn't need to buy the FC-31.



Yes, but that does not preclude US from pressuring the KSA to allow an American-facilitated evaluation of the aircraft, perhaps in return for other political or economic favors.


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## That Guy

SinoSoldier said:


> Yes, but that does not preclude US from pressuring the KSA to allow an American-facilitated evaluation of the aircraft, perhaps in return for other political or economic favors.


It also doesn't mean that China won't put in places to protect its technology, much like the US does.


----------



## grey boy 2



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## eldamar

That Guy said:


> Good point, but I'd argue that such efforts will take a lot long after the FC-31 is available for export.
> 
> For the Arabs, the "Arab specific F-35" would be a watered down version, unable to compete with the Israeli F-35s; if China can offer a fully capable fighter, that isn't watered down, and can effectively challenge the F-35, it has a much higher chance of export success.



Unfortuantely, the world doesnt work that way.

The only way of getting 'non-watered down' systems is to co-develop it and doing so requires financial contribution to the program.

So does these countries have the $$$?


----------



## That Guy

eldarlmari said:


> Unfortuantely, the world doesnt work that way.
> 
> The only way of getting 'non-watered down' systems is to co-develop it and doing so requires financial contribution to the program.
> 
> So does these countries have the $$$?


The Arab countries that would be interested, would have money for such a thing. KSA and UAE in particular would be willing to spend money on developing such a fighter, if it was guaranteed to be on par with the F-35, unfortunately for China, the Arabs are skeptical.


----------



## eldamar

That Guy said:


> The Arab countries that would be interested, would have money for such a thing. KSA and UAE in particular would be willing to spend money on developing such a fighter, if it was guaranteed to be on par with the F-35, unfortunately for China, the Arabs are skeptical.



good point.


----------



## Beast

That Guy said:


> The Arab countries that would be interested, would have money for such a thing. KSA and UAE in particular would be willing to spend money on developing such a fighter, if it was guaranteed to be on par with the F-35, unfortunately for China, the Arabs are skeptical.


The Arabs is intact some of the most fore runner in buying Chinese equipment. I saw a Chinese documentary talking abt export of PLZ-45 SPG.
Arabs don't care how well reputation that company that made the weapon as long as it can passed their test trial with flying colors. In 1997, norinco is still an almost unknown companies in SPG but PLZ-45 excel outfield trial of Kuwaiti SPG bid and was selected.

Chinese military deal is usually shroud in secrecy. You may only know the deal when u see it in service.


----------



## The SC

SinoSoldier said:


> Yes, but that does not preclude US from pressuring the KSA to allow an American-facilitated evaluation of the aircraft, perhaps in return for other political or economic favors.


Not possible, the US tried (insisted) to visit the _Chinese_missie bases in SA, and te request was rejected, .


----------



## UKBengali

That Guy said:


> Good point, but I'd argue that such efforts will take a lot long after the FC-31 is available for export.
> 
> For the Arabs, the "Arab specific F-35" would be a watered down version, unable to compete with the Israeli F-35s; if China can offer a fully capable fighter, that isn't watered down, and can effectively challenge the F-35, it has a much higher chance of export success.




What makes you think that the production version
of J-31 wont be superior to F-35? F-35 is not the most
maneuverable, cannot supercruise and is less stealthy than it could have been.


----------



## randomradio

UKBengali said:


> What makes you think that the production version
> of J-31 wont be superior to F-35? F-35 is not the most
> maneuverable, cannot supercruise and is less stealthy than it could have been.



The F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22.


----------



## IblinI

Ali Zadi said:


> Because a copy cannot exceed the original without compromise


nice nice nice


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## Deino

Ali Zadi said:


> Because a copy cannot exceed the original without compromise


 

Sorry to say so, but either was posted with sarcasm or irony and not market with a smily as such or it is one of the most stupid posts here since weeks ; similar stupid like the endless debates over there at the Key-Publishing forum on if the J-20 is a clone of the Mikoyan MFI 1.44 + elements stolen from the F-22 and F-35. 

You are surely correct that a copy is never as good as the original, but speaking of copying I think most here which are stating such "easy explanations" simply not have any clue on designing, building and manufacturing an aircraft.

If copying would be so easy there would surely be much more copies flying around ...

Just look at the number of engines, the wing geometry, the tail ... but You say it's a copy ??

As such to tell the FC-31 a F-35-copy only shows one thing: a general lack of understanding or will to understand !

Deino

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## Deino

eldarlmari said:


> Proof that the J-31 is a copy of the F-35 please


 

Please do not feed the troolls

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## Ali Zadi

Chill people it was a tongue in cheek "Sarcastic" response because people say the same if I was serious would have backed with some data/facts


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## Deino

But then You should better mark it with some icons like this


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## jkroo

The so called 'stolen' is a cheapest product to sell to people to meet their willingness proved following things.

1. Yankees are too dumb to keep their design well.

2. Yankees are incapable to ask the respect for their patents.

3. No one can provide solid proof to prove it's a 'copied' design so that rumors or suspects well meet someone's strong willingness.

4. Aerodynamics and mechanics for design a 5th generation airplane is so easy for any countries can be copied so easily and the copied thing goes with different shapes not even mention so many subsystems which should meet 5th generation fighters' requirements.

5. So many super computers and manufacturing equipments in China are just for decorations.



OK with such dumb logic many people could live a life now.



Let's wait FC-31 V2.0's show first.

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## That Guy

UKBengali said:


> What makes you think that the production version
> of J-31 wont be superior to F-35? F-35 is not the most
> maneuverable, cannot supercruise and is less stealthy than it could have been.


Call it a hunch.

The two things that the US has over China (and every other nation in the world) are military experience and technological superiority.

The biggest problem China has is that years of producing cheap low quality products for the consumer market, has put its reputation as one of not being able to build quality products for the world. Naturally, this has made potential buyers wary. Now, to give credit, China has been trying to change this image, but we just don't know if it will be enough in the short term.


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## royalharris

View attachment 337687
View attachment 337687


That Guy said:


> Call it a hunch.
> 
> The two things that the US has over China (and every other nation in the world) are military experience and technological superiority.
> 
> The biggest problem China has is that years of producing cheap low quality products for the consumer market, has put its reputation as one of not being able to build quality products for the world. Naturally, this has made potential buyers wary. Now, to give credit, China has been trying to change this image, but we just don't know if it will be enough in the short term.


this is a complicated situation
one type of people, buy according to reputation, mainly for people without the ability make decisions according to investigation&test&comparison. the other type of the people, buy according to thorough comparsion to buy the best. For the west ,they are very clever、progmatical， somewhat hypocritical. make sure make right decisions for themselves and at same time propagate the bad reputation of chinese goods.
For china, begin with low-end product, bring ourselves a bad reputation. now inside china, there are different level requirements with different level products, with good money, you can buy good quality products.
For oversea market, most of oversea people pursing cheap from china, cheap price bring them cheap quality

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## Ultima Thule

royalharris said:


> View attachment 337693
> View attachment 337686
> View attachment 337687
> View attachment 337687
> 
> this is a complicated situation
> one type of people, buy according to reputation, mainly for people without the ability make decisions according to investigation&test&comparison. the other type of the people, buy according to thorough comparsion to buy the best. For the west ,they are very clever、progmatical， somewhat hypocritical. make sure make right decisions for themselves and at same time propagate the bad reputation of chinese goods.
> For china, begin with low-end product, bring ourselves a bad reputation. now inside china, there are different level requirements with different level products, with good money, you can buy good quality products.
> For oversea market, most of oversea people pursing cheap from china, cheap price bring them cheap quality


this is FC-31 thread what crap you are posting


----------



## cirr

601/112 is working on a new project:

*张新国在听取了某项目专项工作汇报后指出，要求加快明确项目方案架构和技术路线，梳理明确关键技术，突出重点，积极推进，占领高地*

http://www.cannews.com.cn/epaper/zghkb/2016/09/27/A01/story/1161509.shtml

2nd paragraph.

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## 帅的一匹

单发黑丝要是给成飞早就搞出来了，沈飞那帮人不知道在干嘛。那么小个机身还搞双发，真是笑话。


----------



## 艹艹艹



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## That Guy

okay, a CG picture, what of it?


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## 艹艹艹

That Guy said:


> okay, a CG picture, what of it?


----------



## That Guy

long_ said:


>


Again, they're nice to look at, but post them on the relevant thread. Opening a new thread is pointless.


----------



## Beast

That Guy said:


> Again, they're nice to look at, but post them on the relevant thread. Opening a new thread is pointless.


Prelude to Zhuhai Airshow 2016.  Currently, all talking about J-20 but on November it will be SAFC-31 steal the limelight.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Prelude to Zhuhai Airshow 2016.  Currently, all talking about J-20 but on November it will be SAFC-31 steal the limelight.




I truly hope You are correct and to admit - if I remember correctly - I'm even a bit worried, since there were reports about V.2 being seen at SAC first on 30. October this year ... regrettably nothing more since then !??

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## Beast

Deino said:


> I truly hope You are correct and to admit - if I remember correctly - I'm even a bit worried, since there were reports about V.2 being seen at SAC first on 30. October this year ... regrettably nothing more since then !??


Anything under Shenyang you are not going to see much becos their testing center is far from public eye.


----------



## eldamar

wanglaokan said:


> 单发黑丝要是给成飞早就搞出来了，沈飞那帮人不知道在干嘛。那么小个机身还搞双发，真是笑话。



twin engines has its advantage. should 1 fail, the other will still function.


----------



## sheik

That Guy said:


> Call it a hunch.
> 
> The two things that the US has over China (and every other nation in the world) are military experience and technological superiority.
> 
> The biggest problem China has is that years of producing cheap low quality products for the consumer market, has put its reputation as one of not being able to build quality products for the world. Naturally, this has made potential buyers wary. Now, to give credit, China has been trying to change this image, but we just don't know if it will be enough in the short term.



China can make all kinds of products in all different quality. The quality you get only depends on how much you paid for.

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## grey boy 2

Hide and seek 一比吓一跳！歼31混入歼11机群 个头太小被淹没

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## Beast

grey boy 2 said:


> Hide and seek 一比吓一跳！歼31混入歼11机群 个头太小被淹没


That maybe the one testing the WS-13E engine.


----------



## Deino

Beast said:


> That maybe the one testing the WS-13E engine.




That might be that bird - since there is only one so far - but that image is very old, actually from mid September 2014 ! 

Deino


----------



## beijingwalker

*Pakistan Will Acquire J-31 Stealth Fighter Jet From China*
Pakistan is reportedly interest in acquiring 30 to 40 of these aircraft.[36] While the J-31 has been touted as a rival to the American F-35 in the export market

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## war&peace

Well Pakistan is interested in J-31 and of course its going into production indicates there is a customer and since PAF is the only airforce interested in it right now, it is possible that they have already placed or promised to purchase a few.


----------



## Neutron-Zone

@beijingwalker these kinds of videos are famous on youtube along time ago.
plz brother if you have some credible source share it.... We really want to get rid of americans. May be there is a good news.


----------



## Secret Service

is it inducted by PLAAF or under development ?


----------



## shhh

Why not TFX


----------



## Neutron-Zone

Shaheer ul haq said:


> Why not TFX


Why not both..??


----------



## unleashed

Neutron-Zone said:


> Why not both..??


$$$$ ?


----------



## Djinn

Shaheer ul haq said:


> Why not TFX


Where is TFX? Only on paper. J-31 has flown and extensively tested so far.

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## eldamar

beijingwalker said:


> *Pakistan Will Acquire J-31 Stealth Fighter Jet From China*
> Pakistan is reportedly interest in acquiring 30 to 40 of these aircraft.[36] While the J-31 has been touted as a rival to the American F-35 in the export market



this is a quote by Wiki in 2014- old news. Every1 knows Pakistan would be interested to buy the planes off-the-shelves if the planes come into fruition- the question up till now is has AVIC found a partner to co-develop the plane with? Doing so requires funds injection for R&D, production commitments and infrastructure buildup by the involved parties


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## beijingwalker




----------



## eldamar

eldarlmari said:


> this is a quote by Wiki in 2014- old news. Every1 knows Pakistan would be interested to buy the planes off-the-shelves if the planes come into fruition- the question up till now is has AVIC found a partner to co-develop the plane with? Doing so requires funds injection for R&D, production commitments and infrastructure buildup by the involved parties



Not to mention that hope that this plane will even ever become a reality is diminishing. People are getting pessimistic on Sinodefence that the main thread for it has already been un-stickied.


----------



## shhh

Djinn said:


> Where is TFX? Only on paper. J-31 has flown and extensively tested so far.



Didn't know that.



Neutron-Zone said:


> Why not both..??



Wouldn't be a good idea.


----------



## Cyberian

war&peace said:


> Well Pakistan is interested in J-31 and of course its *going into production* indicates there is a customer and since PAF is the only airforce interested in it right now, it is possible that they have already placed or promised to purchase a few.



When is it going into production?


----------



## war&peace

SUPARCO said:


> When is it going into production?


According Chinese post as early as 2019. That means the project has been accelerated and China had some breakthroughs in technologies for the fifth gen A/C.


----------



## Cyberian

war&peace said:


> According Chinese post as early as 2019. That means the project has been accelerated and China had some breakthroughs in technologies for the fifth gen A/C.



Impossible. The final version of the aircraft hasn't even come out yet.


----------



## Serpentine

There were rumors that J-31 project is cancelled or am I wrong?


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## Reichsmarschall

beijingwalker said:


> *Pakistan Will Acquire J-31 Stealth Fighter Jet From China*
> Pakistan is reportedly interest in acquiring 30 to 40 of these aircraft.[36] While the J-31 has been touted as a rival to the American F-35 in the export market


DId you have any photo or specs of J-31 V2??


----------



## SBUS-CXK

Shaheer ul haq said:


> Why not TFX


I don't understand the Turkey industrial capacity, but I know that Turkey has imported China WS-1 and WS-2 rocket launcher. And the almost successful introduction of China's HQ-9 air defense missiles, although because of US and NATO obstruction, the final failure... But simply say, Turkey is also China's arms customers.



Narendra Trump said:


> DId you have any photo or specs of J-31 V2??


Wikipedia can do?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-31

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## shhh

Two said:


> I don't understand the Turkey industrial capacity, but I know that Turkey has imported China WS-1 and WS-2 rocket launcher. And the almost successful introduction of China's HQ-9 air defense missiles, although because of US and NATO obstruction, the final failure... But simply say, Turkey is also China's arms customers.
> 
> 
> Wikipedia can do?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-31



My question didn't mean that I have doubts on the Chinese tech.
I want to know the rationale behind this decision.


----------



## Beast

Serpentine said:


> There were rumors that J-31 project is cancelled or am I wrong?


Indeed you are wrong. Wait for Novemeber 2016 Zhuhai Airshow and all your doubt or question will be cleared.

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## ghauri05

The video of J-31 posted here, shows its engine release huge amount of smoke trail.what's with that???
I remember Jf-17 engine also did that but that issue was sorted out


----------



## The SC

We don’t know much about the FC-31, China’s _other _stealth fighter prototype. But a non-flying model of the FC-31 that appeared at the Zhuhai air show in southern China in early November offers some compelling new clues.

That’s because the model is _different _than the flying FC-31 prototype—which also attended the Zhuhai show. Comparing the model and the plane could reveal Shenyang Aircraft Corporation’s ambitions for its new stealth jet.

The model boasts better stealth features, new engines and a wider range of sensors. If Shenyang adds all these enhancements to the FC-31, the resulting fighter could more closely match the American F-35.
....
But if the non-flying model at Zhuhai is any indication, the FC-31 could get a host of improvements. The model has a bigger nose, possibly to indicate carriage of a high-tech electronically-scanned-array radar. The model also includes an under-nose fairing for a camera, similar to the fairing on the F-35.

The model’s tail fins are a different shape than the flying prototype’s fins, with parallel angles that could improve the plane’s ability to avoid radar detection. The canopy is one-piece—representing another possible signature reduction.

Likewise, the model’s engines are different, with sawtooth nozzles that could also improve the FC-31’s stealth. Shenyang reportedly wants to fit domestically-made motors to the FC-31 to replace the Russian RD-93s.

Now, we don’t know when—or even _if_—Shenyang plans to add the model’s improvements to the FC-31. Although, it’s worth pointing out that Chengdu has progressively improved its J-20 prototypes with stealth features.

https://warisboring.com/chinas-stealth-fighter-could-get-a-lot-better-7fa16ad578fb#.m2po8t8dt

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## Imran Khan

this will be our next generation fighter sure


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## Beast

ghauri05 said:


> The video of J-31 posted here, shows its engine release huge amount of smoke trail.what's with that???
> I remember Jf-17 engine also did that but that issue was sorted out


Yes, please be patient for November airshow in China. All your enquiry will be answer.

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## SBUS-CXK

Shaheer ul haq said:


> My question didn't mean that I have doubts on the Chinese tech.
> I want to know the rationale behind this decision.


As far as I know, TFX is based on US technology, US will agree with Turkey TFX exported Pakistan?


----------



## shhh

Two said:


> As far as I know, TFX is based on US technology, US will agree with Turkey TFX exported Pakistan?



Wasn't the basic idea of TFX was to be self dependent?


----------



## royalharris

W


Shaheer ul haq said:


> Wasn't the basic idea of TFX was to be self dependent?


whatever,but one thing for sure,TFX is just on paper for now,let us talk about it when a prototype come true.

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## shhh

royalharris said:


> W
> 
> whatever,but one thing for sure,TFX is just on paper for now,let us talk about it when a prototype come true.



agreed.


----------



## Cpt.usman

Guys what do u think will J31B show up in air show november 2k16??? In this air show timetalbe there is an unclassified aircraft at 11:05 to 11:15...Could it be J-20?

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## Akasa

Cpt.usman said:


> Guys what do u think will J31B show up in air show november 2k16??? In this air show timetalbe there is an unclassified aircraft at 11:05 to 11:15...Could it be J-20?



This poster is likely referring to the J-20, since the supplier of the aircraft is listed as "PLAAF"; the FC-31 has not been purchased by the PLAAF/PLANAF yet.

However, it is likely that the v2.0 will appear at the airshow, either in static form or as a scaled model.

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## Cpt.usman

sinosoldier What is static :-/


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## Akasa

Cpt.usman said:


> sinosoldier What is static :-/



Meaning that there is a possibility the prototype could appear as a display but will not conduct a flight.


----------



## ConcealCarry

Classified........Thunder twin seater?



Cpt.usman said:


> Guys what do u think will J31B show up in air show november 2k16??? In this air show timetalbe there is an unclassified aircraft at 11:05 to 11:15...Could it be J-20?


----------



## IblinI

ConcealCarry said:


> Classified........Thunder twin seater?


More likely to be J20 since the category state that it is from PLAAF.

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## WarFariX

J31 will show up this air show as static model :-(


----------



## WarFariX

yuchen is right...its most probably J20 as the aircraft belongs to PLAF


----------



## 592257001

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> J31 will show up this air show as static model :-(





Cpt.usman said:


> Guys what do u think will J31B show up in air show november 2k16??? In this air show timetalbe there is an unclassified aircraft at 11:05 to 11:15...Could it be J-20?



Correction, there's no such thing as J-31 right now, only FC-31. Unlike J-20, FC-31 remains an AVIC (SAC) project that doesn't have PLAAF/PLAN backing/funding.

This is not to say FC-31 2.0 won't be inducted into the PLAAF/PLAN after it comes to fruition, merely not at this stage of time.

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## WarFariX

@592257001 actually currently PLAN loves J15 for navy and doesnt need FC31 but times will change when they will have at least 3 carriers


----------



## 星海军事

grey boy 2 said:


> From the Air Show China 2016


A model exhibition in Xi'an.

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## Deino

Sorry guys ... sadly no news, but even if I'm usually already more than impatient, I always thought, SAC will likely show the FC-31.V2 at least by late September in order to "celebrate" 4th maiden-flight anniversary.

Given that these rumours are around since - like You say - more than a year and V1 was unveiled on 16. September 2014 followed by a maiden flight on 31. October I'm slowly losing my faith !  

Come on SAC ... don't give CAC all the glory !
Deino


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Sorry guys ... sadly no news, but even if I'm usually already more than impatient, I always thought, SAC will likely show the FC-31.V2 at least by late September in order to "celebrate" 4th maiden-flight anniversary.
> 
> Given that these rumours are around since - like You say - more than a year and V1 was unveiled on 16. September 2014 followed by a maiden flight on 31. October I'm slowly losing my faith !
> 
> Come on SAC ... don't give CAC all the glory !
> Deino



Some news i got is that completed version with all targeted avionics will fly in 2018. But the airframe is ready right now and can fly anytime. I think chinese say correct that FC31 will be available for export before 2020 but i dont agree on that point as engine is the main drawback


----------



## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Some news i got is that completed version with all targeted avionics will fly in 2018. But the airframe is ready right now and can fly anytime. I think chinese say correct that FC31 will be available for export before 2020 but i dont agree on that point as engine is the main drawback




But wouldn't it be wiser, more logical esp. concerning the publicity-effect to show that bird as soon as possible instead of waiting for the final avionics. IMO these can wait.

If these latest reports are correct and the FC-31.V1 flew already with the WS-13IPE it shouldn't be a problem for V2 to fly with these engines too ... and again IMO as soon as possible.

Now is Zhuhai and the world - and as such possible customers which can be attracted - ... not in a year and who knows what's already in 2018??

Deino


----------



## Blue Marlin

grey boy 2 said:


> Hide and seek 一比吓一跳！歼31混入歼11机群 个头太小被淹没


iv'e seen that picture before, its quiet old now.


----------



## Deino

Blue Marlin said:


> iv'e seen that picture before, its quiet old now.



Indeed from September 2014 !

https://defence.pk/threads/sac-fc-3...news-discussions.207796/page-152#post-8773671


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Indeed from September 2014 !
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/sac-fc-3...news-discussions.207796/page-152#post-8773671



Where did u read that report of 2014's 31001 was using ws-13ipe??? it was clearly using rd93...Compare the nozzles


----------



## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Where did u read that report of 2014's 31001 was using ws-13ipe??? it was clearly using rd93...Compare the nozzles



No, simply that image is from September 2014. I never said anything concerning the WS-13 ... and by the way care to explain how to differ a RD-93 from a WS-13 ???

Deino

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## Deino

Uhh, uhhh ... only one day left to at least show us V2 to celebrate the 4th anniversary of V1's maiden flight ... but to admit; I won't hold my breath !

A possible alternative could be this thing: Even if only a what-if made by my friend Bai Wei  I suggest this to pass over the design to CAC. Just add a WS-15 and finish the design ... simply amazing !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/791952418837671937
Deino

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## Muhammad Omar

Deino said:


> Uhh, uhhh ... only one day left to at least show us V2 to celebrate the 4th anniversary of V1's maiden flight ... but to admit; I won't hold my breath !
> 
> A possible alternative could be this thing: Even if only a what-if made by my friend Bai Wei  I suggest this to pass over the design to CAC. Just add a WS-15 and finish the design ... simply amazing !
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/791952418837671937
> Deino



One of the best Single Engine Design

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## Deino

Indeed ... Bai Wei is not only a good friend but even more a pure genius; I simply love his CGs, side profiles and artworks !!


----------



## JSCh

From Weibo,

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## Muhammad Omar

JSCh said:


> From Weibo,




PAF officials When this one will Fly 

Chinese when you gonna invest in it

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## eldamar

Muhammad Omar said:


> PAF officials When this one will Fly
> 
> Chinese when you gonna invest in it



Some1 has to invest in it- Chinese government aint floating this up.

Are you guys doing it?


----------



## royalharris

Now china already have J20, if no oversea investment, maybe should just stop FC31 project, focus the resource on 6th generation fighter


----------



## zestokryl

Either way, work being done on FC 31 is not going down the drain. Engineering, trials, technologies are going to be utilized in other fighter or drone projects. Leading chinese aeronautical engineering teams , already have their hands full with the J 20, strategic bomber, UCAV, cargo planes, hellicopter projects ...

That doesnt mean, FC 31 wont materialize, but since its not priority project and Pakistan is broke as usual, thats not going to happen in 3 or 4 next years. Maybe FC 31 is going to be the basis of future chinese VTOL fighter

Engine department is still a drag for aeronautical complex in China. It requires additional time and technology maturing

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## cirr

zestokryl said:


> Either way, work being done on FC 31 is not going down the drain. Engineering, trials, technologies are going to be utilized in other fighter or drone projects. Leading chinese aeronautical engineering teams , already have their hands full with the J 20, strategic bomber, UCAV, cargo planes, hellicopter projects ...
> 
> That doesnt mean, FC 31 wont materialize, but since its not priority project and Pakistan is broke as usual, thats not going to happen in 3 or 4 next years. Maybe FC 31 is going to be the basis of future chinese VTOL fighter
> 
> Engine department is still a drag for aeronautical complex in China. It requires additional time and technology maturing



FC-31 v2.0





















@Deino

The above are screen grabs from the following FC-31 promotional video

http://www.weibo.com/tv/v/EfXEkmTOw

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> FC-31 v2.0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Deino
> 
> The above are screen grabs from the following FC-31 promotional video
> 
> http://www.weibo.com/tv/v/EfXEkmTOw



We have been waiting for this for a long time. Now, is this the full-scale mockup or the actual prototype?


----------



## SOHEIL

SinoSoldier said:


> We have been waiting for this for a long time. Now, is this the full-scale mockup or the actual prototype?



Prototype

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## Akasa

SOHEIL said:


> Prototype



I would expect so, but how can you be sure? Rumor has it that a full-scale mockup was also produced.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

cirr said:


> FC-31 v2.0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Deino
> 
> The above are screen grabs from the following FC-31 promotional video
> 
> http://www.weibo.com/tv/v/EfXEkmTOw



Finally


----------



## SOHEIL

SinoSoldier said:


> I would expect so, but how can you be sure? Rumor has it that a full-scale mockup was also produced.



Details on the fuselage & RD-93 engines !


----------



## cirr



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## Deino

SOHEIL said:


> Details on the fuselage & RD-33 engines !
> 
> View attachment 349226




I can't think that these are still RD-93; more likely the WS-13 (hopefully the WS-13E) ... and by the way, it never used a RD-33.

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/794168428546269184

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/794169081356107776


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## Deino

cirr said:


> FC-31 v2.0



Anyone noticed this small air-intake on the tails ?


----------



## wuriwuyue

maybe it's not CG


----------



## Shabi1

Deino said:


> Anyone noticed this small air-intake on the tails ?



Normally intakes added near tail are for additional cooling for engines on fighters, for large commercial jets tail intake acts as intake for the engine that drives the Auxilary power unit.

Will have to wait for J-31 purpose once more information available.


----------



## WarFariX

wuriwuyue said:


> maybe it's not CG


pics not showing up bro...link is not allowed to be viewed by us :-(


----------



## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> We have been waiting for this for a long time. Now, is this the full-scale mockup or the actual prototype?



Mockup?

At a time when people are starting to look forward to the rolling out of H-20 prototype in a year or two?


----------



## WarFariX

cirr said:


> Mockup?
> 
> At a time when people are starting to look forward to the rolling out of H-20 prototype in a year or two?


bro can u plz share the promotional video


----------



## WarFariX

from the link u posted above...i cant find any video there
http://weibo.cn/tv/v/EfXEkmTOw?&jumpfrom=weibocom


----------



## yusheng

http://weibo.com/tv/v/EfXEkmTOw?fid=1034:1bbf02f7a379665382970d550f7a710f

try this one

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## Deino

Nice ... but I don't understand that guy's obsession with '911' !!


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Nice ... but I don't understand that guy's obsession with '911' !!


Lets try to interpret 911...what does it mean


----------



## WarFariX

Details on stealth fighters cockpit and AESA

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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Lets try to interpret 911...what does it mean



I know what '911' normally means .. even more so why on a Chinese plane and why that "political" statement ?

PS: By the way .. any guess how old these images are ???

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## WarFariX

Helmet and cockpit view

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## grey boy 2

The FC-31 advertising video in the link below
http://www.haohanfw.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=80607

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

Seems as if my question was lost in the euphoria about the V2's appearance but anyway again: .. any information or guess available how old these images of V2 are ??? 

Deino


----------



## WarFariX

.


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Seems as if my question was lost in the euphoria about the V2's appearance but anyway again: .. any information or guess available how old these images of V2 are ???
> 
> Deino


i saw these pics 3 months ago too...u see , v2.0 pics have been circulating for a quite long time now with the first i saw 7 months ago


----------



## WarFariX

coming sooooon

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## Hassan Guy

Whabout F-35?


----------



## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> i saw these pics 3 months ago too...u see , v2.0 pics have been circulating for a quite long time now with the first i saw 7 months ago




Wait, wait ... You mean this one ???






You wanna say, this image is already 7 months old and has not been posted before ???

May I ask, where You have seen it. I can't think that it was already posted before in any forum, since it was something several of us were waiting for months.

The CGs are indeed circulation thru the net since months but surely not this one.

Or am I wrong ??

Deino


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Wait, wait ... You mean this one ???
> View attachment 349855
> 
> 
> 
> You wanna say, this image is already 7 months old and has not been posted before ???
> 
> May I ask, where You have seen it. I can't think that it was already posted before in any forum, since it was something several of us were waiting for months.
> 
> The CGs are indeed circulation thru the net since months but surely not this one.
> 
> Or am I wrong ??
> 
> Deino


no no not this one..this video was made in studio with pics of protoype 1 month ago to b presented in air show...CGs i was talking about


----------



## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> no no not this one..this video was made in studio with pics of protoype 1 month ago to b presented in air show...CGs i was talking about



Ahhh ... however sad, since if this image would be already so old, a possible maiden flight could be likely soon, however now ....

Thanks a lot !

Deino


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Ahhh ... however sad, since if this image would be already so old, a possible maiden flight could be likely soon, however now ....
> 
> Thanks a lot !
> 
> Deino


don't worry. by December u will officially see it flying for tests


----------



## UniverseWatcher

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> don't worry. by December u will officially see it flying for tests


nice Photoshop though 

Didn't see this on the thread so posting it now


----------



## Rafi

Welcome to our next gen fighter, in a few years good chance its bigger sibling will also join nuff said.


----------



## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> don't worry. by December u will officially see it flying for tests




Ohhh please not !!! No Photoshopped images here.

Otherwise guys like David Axe, Dave Majumdar and a few other specialists will already post their "FC-31 maiden flight"-reports tomorrow . 


Deino


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Ohhh please not !!! No Photoshopped images here.
> 
> Otherwise guys like David Axe, Dave Majumdar and a few other specialists will already post their "FC-31 maiden flight"-reports tomorrow .
> 
> 
> Deino


thats what i am aiming for [emoji12] [emoji12] [emoji12] [emoji12]

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## yusheng



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## qwerrty

*New details emerge on Shenyang FC-31 fifth-generation export fighter*

Richard D Fisher Jr, Washington, DC - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

09 November 2016

Construction has apparently begun of a prototype of the second version of the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) FC-31 'Gyrfalcon' twin-engine, fifth-generation export fighter, according to a video shown at Airshow China, held in Zhuhai from 1-6 November.

The video provides views of the fuselage under construction and shows that the new version will have a distributed aperture system (DAS) optical early-warning system.

The video also gives the first indication of the FC-31's internal and wing-mounted weapon options: six internal plus six wing-mounted medium-range air-to-air missiles; four internal plus four wing-mounted supersonic air-to-surface missiles; four internal plus four wing-mounted 500 kg deep-penetration bombs; or 12 internal and 18 wing-mounted smaller bombs (or presumably combinations of those options).

Derived from the J-31 fighter prototype that first flew on 31 October 2012, the second version has been shown in model form at the 2014 and 2016 Zhuhai shows. It features a much- modified fuselage with an electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) and swept-back vertical stabilizer.

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) also provided new FC-31 specifications at Zhuhai, updating figures leaked around the September 2015 Beijing Airshow. The FC-31's length has increased to 17.3 m from 16.8 m, while its maximum take-off weight has increased to 28 tonnes from 25 tonnes.

AVIC also displayed an 'Advanced Avionics Concept Cockpit for Military Aircraft' at Zhuhai using a forward fuselage similar to that of the FC-31. It features side-stick controls, a single reconfigurable large multifunction display (MFD), a wide head-up display (HUD) and a new helmet-mounted display similar to the Striker system produced by BAE Systems for use in the Eurofighter Typhoon.

The FC-31 may also use the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) KLJ-7A active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, also displayed for the first time at Airshow China, which is claimed to have a performance similar the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-81 AESA radar of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

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## WarFariX

@Deino @Windjammer @SinoSoldier 

A very interesting question came in my mind.
J-31-001 prototype used stealth coating instead of Baked in fibre-mat stealth tech. J-20 uses Baked-in fibre mat..now question is whether J-31v2 uses baked-in or not...from the pic i saw of prototype in video , i can conclude it used baked in fibre. What do u think?

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## AlyxMS

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Deino @Windjammer @SinoSoldier
> 
> A very interesting question came in my mind.
> J-31-001 prototype used stealth coating instead of Baked in fibre-mat stealth tech. J-20 uses Baked-in fibre mat..now question is whether J-31v2 uses baked-in or not...from the pic i saw of prototype in video , i can conclude it used baked in fibre. What do u think?


IMO we simply can't tell what kind of stealth paint or weather stealth paint is used at all just by looking at them. We'll have to wait for official reports.

As far as eyeballing goes 31001 could've used black paint and J-20 could've used metallic silver paint, albeit unlikely.


----------



## j20blackdragon



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## WarFariX

j20blackdragon said:


> View attachment 351739


Could some chinese member please translate this word by word especially the 2020-2030 part?


----------



## nang2

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Could some chinese member please translate this word by word especially the 2020-2030 part?


It says this plane is for the future. 2020-2030 is the future intended.


----------



## WarFariX

nang2 said:


> It says this plane is for the future. 2020-2030 is the future intended.


ok and what about below ..thnx btw


----------



## nang2

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> ok and what about below ..thnx btw


Oh, that is easy. What it says is basically this: it is great; it is great; it is great; it is great; and the best of all, it is cheap.

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## grey boy 2

internal weapons bay?

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> internal weapons bay?


fuselage under const


----------



## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> fuselage under const



Agreed ... I think that's more a side-view but an open bay!


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Agreed ... I think that's more a side-view but an open bay!


actually my friend over their in AVIC involved in this project


----------



## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> actually my friend over their in AVIC involved in this project



Ok. .... so can You ask him, how old these images leaked during the show are ??


----------



## grey boy 2

FC-31 fly again? 鹘鹰又出来晾晒了

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## Kompromat

Old images.



grey boy 2 said:


> FC-31 fly again? 鹘鹰又出来晾晒了


----------



## Deino

Good question ... why not ? I think testing the WS-13 is still not finished.

However I would more eager like to know when V2 will be presented ....


----------



## Hassan Guy

If the Chinese don't let the PAF customize the jet (Use of Russian engines), then the F-35 is the better choice.


----------



## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> If the Chinese don't let the PAF customize the jet (Use of Russian engines), then the F-35 is the better choice.



Even if I completely agree with Your conclusion, that Pakistan will never get the F-35 You language is inappropriate !!

are you mad or something go ..... their are 0% chance to get F-35 in near future you insane kid *case closed*

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## Hassan Guy

pakistanipower said:


> are you mad or something .... their are 0% chance to get F-35 in near future you insane kid *case closed*


K.


----------



## Ultima Thule

Hassan Guy said:


> K.


you are really insane *WHAT THE MEANING "K"?*


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Good question ... why not ? I think testing the WS-13 is still not finished.
> 
> However I would more eager like to know when V2 will be presented ....


As i said that my source is there, the ws13e tvc engine has always been on fc31 v1 without tvn since 2014 for testing, the engine is maturing at an extreme rate but there r some leaking problems to what i guess....the engine hasnt been tested gmfor high g flights yet.....the jet v2 is supposed to fly next month if everything goes fine...v2 proto is being built and near completion


----------



## nang2

pakistanipower said:


> you are really insane *WHAT THE MEANING "K"?*


Short for OK.


----------



## SOHEIL

nang2 said:


> Short for OK.


----------



## eldamar

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> As i said that my source is there, the ws13e tvc engine has always been on fc31 v1 without tvn since 2014 for testing, the engine is maturing at an extreme rate but there r some leaking problems to what i guess....the engine hasnt been tested gmfor high g flights yet.....the jet v2 is supposed to fly next month if everything goes fine...v2 proto is being built and near completion



$$$ will hurry the development of any planes in China, so wheres the Pakistani $$$?


----------



## Hassan Guy

eldarlmari said:


> $$$ will hurry the development of any planes in China, so wheres the Pakistani $$$?


Unfortunately over here, those are in short supply.


----------



## WarFariX

@Horus @Deino dont you people think that after israel gets F-35 , iran as a political so called enemy of israel will go for a 5th gen...now what hoax we have been hearing to is Qaher 313....but what i think is that 2 potential customers currently for fc31 would be iran and pakistan.....plz give ur views

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## Maxpane

Bro any new about fc 31?


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## That Guy

Maxpane said:


> Bro any new about fc 31?


Well, someone on here said that there was a chance the second prototype would fly around December, maybe check back next month?


----------



## Maxpane

That Guy said:


> Well, someone on here said that there was a chance the second prototype would fly around December, maybe check back next month?


Ok. thanks bro


----------



## WarFariX

That Guy said:


> Well, someone on here said that there was a chance the second prototype would fly around December, maybe check back next month?








i said


Maxpane said:


> Ok. thanks bro

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## Maxpane

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> i said


Thanks bro . whenever you get any new about it plz tag me. thanks for your effort


----------



## WarFariX

Maxpane said:


> Thanks bro . whenever you get any new about it plz tag me. thanks for your effort


actually i am in contact with alan warnes...a very renowned airforce weekly editor who has much inside knowledge


----------



## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> ...renowned airforce weekly editor who has much inside knowledge




To the PAF for sure, he is almost an official PAF-PR-man in the UK, but if he has so much inside knowledge to SAC I don't know.

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## Maxpane

Deino said:


> To the PAF for sure, he is almost an official PAF-PR-man in the UK, but if he has so much inside knowledge to SAC I don't know.


Bro anyone who has any news about this bird plz tag me


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> To the PAF for sure, he is almost an official PAF-PR-man in the UK, but if he has so much inside knowledge to SAC I don't know.


he did visit in zhuhai air show and he was especially treated by chinese officials and he said that intentions were to display fc31 v2 at zhuhai but some reason gor dekayed and now scheduled for december

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## 星海军事

星海军事 said:


> 2.0 is likely to have its maiden flight soon.

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## nang2

星海军事 said:


>


what does it mean?


----------



## Akasa

星海军事 said:


>



Post the video once it's up on YouTube (or whatever the Chinese knockoff is called).


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## Deino

nang2 said:


> what does it mean?




Exactly ... please define "soon": Soon in the meaning of within hours, days, weeks, months ??

Deino


----------



## monitor

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Horus @Deino dont you people think that after israel gets F-35 , iran as a political so called enemy of israel will go for a 5th gen...now what hoax we have been hearing to is Qaher 313....but what i think is that 2 potential customers currently for fc31 would be iran and pakistan.....plz give ur views




What I know problem with j-31 is funding as plaaf is committed to j-20 j-31 is not getting govt fund for development. If Pakistan and Iran fund the development cost program may get new momentum and hopefully by aroud 2025 Pakistan might start getting j-31 .


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## Deino

But this if should have the font-size of "2345" !

I really can't think that in the current state of economic situation Pakistan can only found the development of the avionics.
That partner has to be a true financial heavy-weight ... but surely not Pakistan and that's not an offence but reality.


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> But this if should have the font-size of "2345" !
> 
> I really can't think that in the current state of economic situation Pakistan can only found the development of the avionics.
> That partner has to be a true financial heavy-weight ... but surely not Pakistan and that's not an offence but reality.


PAF has much money now...they havent procured anything for almost 10 years plus funds are diverted towards thinder and 5th gen now


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Exactly ... please define "soon": Soon in the meaning of within hours, days, weeks, months ??
> 
> Deino

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## WarFariX

星海军事 said:


>


What is this bro? :-D


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> What is this bro? :-D




The FC-31 V2 prototype from behind ... a typical step-by-step unveiling - Salamitaktik as we say in Germany - until the real bird will be shown.

Deino

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> The FC-31 V2 prototype from behind ... a typical step-by-step unveiling - Salamitaktik as we say in Germany - until the real bird will be shown.
> 
> Deino


but this looks like a sketch [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]


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## Muhammad Omar

星海军事 said:


>



Finally at-least Something


----------



## Hassan Guy

Why did they change the tail fins?


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## WarFariX

According to this , WS13e was tested on 1st july 2016 onboard FC-31v1


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## Hassan Guy

http://vietbao.vn/The-gioi/Diem-yeu-chet-nguoi-tren-tiem-kich-tang-hinh-FC31/158322801/860/
Anyone speak vietnamese?

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## grey boy 2

Finally FC-31 2.0 to be unveil on a lucky day (千呼万唤...2.0终于现身)

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## Tiqiu

Maybe this so-called WS13e of the said engine developed by the Plant410 is the FWS10C engine that people are talking about. it may also have vectoring thrust. It all make sense now that 410 has delayed the 2.0 version for so long until it has mastered the FWS10B. As it was said that FWS10C will aim to power the Chinese new naval version fighter, so maybe J31 is the future Chinese aircraft carrier's fighter plane.


Tiqiu said:


> 5) Plant 410 designated FWS10C to a new medium thrust engine to power J31. Probably it will adopt part of FWS15 designs/materials to FWS13 like did on FWS10B.


----------



## cirr

星海军事 said:


>



This is like what, 4 or 5 months old?


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> This is like what, 4 or 5 months old?



How did you know that this photo is dated? Would the prototype be fully painted?


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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> Finally FC-31 2.0 to be unveil on a lucky day (千呼万唤...2.0终于现身)


what does this poster say? what date is j31 showing up?


----------



## grey boy 2

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> what does this poster say? what date is j31 showing up?


Some reputable source claiming one more big event coming within the end of this yr which should be the unveil of (FC-31 2.0) "on a Chinese LUCKY day"


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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> Some reputable source claiming one more big event coming within the end of this yr which should be the unveil of (FC-31 2.0) "on a Chinese LUCKY day"


yes even alan warnes ex airforces monthly editor said the same


----------



## WarFariX

are malaysia and north korea a potential FC-31 customer in future ? @cirr @Deino @grey boy 2


----------



## kuge

grey boy 2 said:


> Some reputable source claiming one more big event coming within the end of this yr which should be the unveil of (FC-31 2.0) "on a Chinese LUCKY day"


冬至at winter solstice？


----------



## WarFariX

kuge said:


> 冬至at winter solstice？


Whats that?


----------



## samsara

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Whats that?


_冬至 (Dōngzhì) Winter Solstice_, the 22nd of the 24 solar terms, the current period falls in 22nd December-5th January

*24 in 1: The Chinese Solar Terms - Global Times (2016-12-01)*

_*By observing the sun's movement across the sky, ancient Chinese divided the year into the following 24 sections known as solar terms.*_

China's "Twenty-Four Solar Terms" were included on the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity by the UN Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) on November 30, during the 11th session of the UNESCO Intergovernmental Committee for the Safeguarding of the Intangible Cultural Heritage (ICH) in the Ethiopian capital Addis Ababa. Let's deepen our understanding of this ancient Chinese wisdom!

Read the full article at the Global Times site (just search it).

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807151520823263232

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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807151520823263232




I would like to know how much he really knows or if it is only based on the reports that a first flight will occur before year's end ... which is de facto within the next two weeks + a few days !

Not sure if these guys at SAC would care about Christmas ?? I don't think so ....


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> I would like to know how much he really knows or if it is only based on the reports that a first flight will occur before year's end ... which is de facto within the next two weeks + a few days !
> 
> Not sure if these guys at SAC would care about Christmas ?? I don't think so ....



December is usually when activity quickens since the employees & engineers want to finish their break before Chinese New Years.


----------



## The Eagle

Deino said:


> I would like to know how much he really knows or if it is only based on the reports that a first flight will occur before year's end ... which is de facto within the next two weeks + a few days !
> 
> Not sure if these guys at SAC would care about Christmas ?? I don't think so ....



Most probably around 23rd December, 2016, my guess and many would love to have such a wonderful holidays.

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## Deino

Any guess if V2 will be painted - or if it is already - prior to the maiden flight ? Or will it fly naked !?


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Any guess if V2 will be painted - or if it is already - prior to the maiden flight ? Or will it fly naked !?


Any idea how much time it takes to paint? Coz some source rumoured it to be naked until Nov 3...didnt know anything further

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Any guess if V2 will be painted - or if it is already - prior to the maiden flight ? Or will it fly naked !?



Well, the J-20 route may give us an idea how we will be seeing the V2 like factory paint scheme.


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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> Well, the J-20 route may give us an idea how we will be seeing the V2 like factory paint scheme.




Yes and no ... if V2 is comparable to the J-20 revised '201x' prototypes, then it is likely that it is painted too ...

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## 帅的一匹

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> are malaysia and north korea a potential FC-31 customer in future ? @cirr @Deino @grey boy 2


no



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Any idea how much time it takes to paint? Coz some source rumoured it to be naked until Nov 3...didnt know anything further


can pakistan send few engineere to SAC to.help.them paint the.V2? the paint job there is a disaster.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> no
> 
> 
> can pakistan send few engineere to SAC to.help.them paint the.V2? the paint job there is a disaster.




Come on ??? Why do You think some Pakistani could do a paint-job better ??? ... and what's wrong with the paint on any of the Flankers?? I admit, I don't like the scheme - I would love to see some sort of two-tone low-viz-grey on them - but the paint job itself looks fine.


----------



## AlyxMS

Deino said:


> Come on ??? Why do You think some Pakistani could do a paint-job better ??? ... and what's wrong with the paint on any of the Flankers?? I admit, I don't like the scheme - I would love to see some sort of two-tone low-viz-grey on them - but the paint job itself looks fine.


I think he meant exactly that- the scheme.


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## grey boy 2

FC-31 V2 will take the 1st test flight within this few days

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> FC-31 V2 will take the 1st test flight within this few days


you think we will get video as soon as it makes its first flight...i mean day

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## cirr

Maiden flight any minute now? 

13.00 Beijing Time.

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

cirr said:


> Maiden flight any minute now?
> 
> 13.00 Beijing Time.
> 
> View attachment 361214




Hmmm; O.k. ... 13:00 Beijing time is over ... and what happened ???


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Hmmm; O.k. ... 13:00 Beijing time is over ... and what happened ???


high-speed taxing test

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> high-speed taxing test




Thanks ... just found this and so it seems indeed no flight was done, but "only" a high-speed taxi-test.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/810415504078884864


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Hmmm; O.k. ... 13:00 Beijing time is over ... and what happened ???



Well, there is always another time.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Well, there is always another time.




Yes indeed, there's always another time !

I hope however that they don't follow the same pattern as with V1: it appeared for the first time during a taxi-test in 16. September and made its maiden flight on 31. October !

Anyway, it seems at least as if that bird is still in yellow-primer. Will surely be an interesting sight !

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## Saifullah Sani

Reported images of the second J-31 prototype. Photo credit: China Military Aviation and Chinese internet sources.

*SECOND J-31 PROTOTYPE POSSIBLY CLOSE TO MAIDEN TEST FLIGHT*

Images attributed to the second Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) J-31 prototype suggest that the unit is imminently ready to conduct its maiden test flight.

Reports from Chinese analysts surrounding the nearing completion of the second prototype have been mounting since Air Show China 2016, which took place in Zhuhai in November. British aviation journalist Alan Warnes reported that the second J-31 prototype would fly in December.

Specific details of the aircraft, such as its turbofan engines and onboard systems, are not yet known.

Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) began its concerted marketing push for the J-31 (i.e. FC-31) during the 2015 Dubai Air Show. At that time, AVIC promised to refine the J-31 technology demonstrator with numerous design improvements to the airframe.

The production-ready FC-31 will also utilize an active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system, infrared search and track (IRST), integrated electro-optical targeting system (EOTS), and single display-panel cockpit (with a side-mounted flight-control stick).

The FC-31 is to have capable load-out options as well, such as the capacity to internally carry six medium-range air-to-air missiles (with another six externally) or four 500 kg guided-bombs internally, among other possible configurations using the fighter’s internal and external hardpoints (IHS Jane’s).

At the 2015 Dubai Air Show, AVIC stated that the FC-31 will have a maximum take-off weight of 24,947 kg, payload capacity of almost 8,000 kg, service ceiling of 16,000 metres, and top speed of Mach 1.8. It will have a combat radius of 1,200 km.

*Notes & Comments:*

AVIC is marketing the FC-31 principally for export, though it hopes to secure domestic orders from the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) or People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).

Pakistan has been pegged as a strong candidate for the FC-31, but the fighter could see traction in other countries as well, especially since the fifth-generation fighter market has no other serviceable or near-serviceable options beyond the Lockheed Martin F-35 and Sukhoi T-50.

The production-ready FC-31 is expected to fly in 2019. If ordered in time, it could reach initial operational capability by 2022 and full operational capability by 2024.

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## The SC

SAC wouldn't have continued to invest in a second prototype if it didn't have some serious inquiries and some threshold to attain based on those inquiries..either from the Chinese air force or navy as well as from potential foreign customers..
But FOC in 2024 is a bit too long for exports, since many (at least) GCC nations might be able to get the US F-35 by that time or not far from it, still Egypt and other Arab countries like Morocco and Jordan might wait for it to be fully operational before purchasing it.. Pakistan on the other hand can join in the production and make a JV like the one with the JF-17, that is if it wants good numbers, a hundred or so.. the possibility is there since Pakistan's economy shows very good signs of progress and pronostics are most positive for a GDP growth of 7% by 2018..


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## cirr

Maiden test flight could be as early as this week.

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## Deino

*@Saifullah Sani*
* ... why again a new thread ????  ... is it that difficult to look before posting ??? *


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## yusheng



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## Akasa

yusheng said:


> View attachment 361507
> View attachment 361508



Top image is a PSed photo of the v1.0 prototype. Bottom image is that of the J-20 #2001/2's single-piece canopy.

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## yusheng

and this one？

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## Akasa

yusheng said:


> View attachment 361510
> 
> 
> and this one？



PSed CGI of the alleged Dark Sword drone (which never progressed beyond the initial concept phase).

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## CHINA83NEWS

yusheng said:


> View attachment 361510
> 
> 
> and this one？


沈飞的验证机很长时间前的了。
Verify the machine
In shenyang.Many years ago.

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## WarFariX

New CGIs of 2nd FC-31v2 Prototype by Lovely Swift

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## CHINA83NEWS

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> New CGIs of 2nd FC-31v2 Prototype by Lovely Swift


Not J31 is China's unmanned aerial vehicle (uav)


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## CHINA83NEWS

The second figure the F35


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## WarFariX

CHINA83NEWS said:


> Not J31 is China's unmanned aerial vehicle (uav)


*facepalm*


----------



## CHINA83NEWS

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> *facepalm*


Pakistan don't anticipate the introduction of J31.Big change JF17 possibility.JF17 basis.In WS10 engine can good.


----------



## The Eagle

CHINA83NEWS said:


> Pakistan don't anticipate the introduction of J31.Big change JF17 possibility.JF17 basis.In WS10 engine can good.



As far as I can understand of your post, JF-17 route and the possible engine is totally different subject and indeed, the growth is always welcome. 

What we discuss here is actually all about FC-31/J-31 development, progress which is now moved to V 2.0 means a lot of visible changes to expect that may catch the eyes of Men in Blue.


----------



## CHINA83NEWS

The Eagle said:


> As far as I can understand of your post, JF-17 route and the possible engine is totally different subject and indeed, the growth is always welcome.
> 
> What we discuss here is actually all about FC-31/J-31 development, progress which is now moved to V 2.0 means a lot of visible changes to expect that may catch the eyes of Men in Blue.


J31 estimate becomes SU47 without capital.



The Eagle said:


> As far as I can understand of your post, JF-17 route and the possible engine is totally different subject and indeed, the growth is always welcome.
> 
> What we discuss here is actually all about FC-31/J-31 development, progress which is now moved to V 2.0 means a lot of visible changes to expect that may catch the eyes of Men in Blue.


But too much better than Japan's fourth generation machine.
Pakistan need most is a high-performance awacs and attack aircraft.


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## The Eagle

CHINA83NEWS said:


> J31 estimate becomes SU47 without capital.



SU-47 was a technology demonstrator yet FC-31 is pitched as 5th Gen fighter that has to be in category of lethal bird to catch the eyes so let's wait what V 2.0 has got to steal the show. We heard about a potential buyer visit to Shenyang to check the development so it is not necessary that every development or customer interest would be made public. We can assume that if SAC has came again with V 2 that means, there was expected response for the product that they spent in such bird. Heard that flight is expected in a week or so as new year gift.

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## CHINA83NEWS

The Eagle said:


> SU-47 was a technology demonstrator yet FC-31 is pitched as 5th Gen fighter that has to be in category of lethal bird to catch the eyes so let's wait what V 2.0 has got to steal the show. We heard about a potential buyer visit to Shenyang to check the development so it is not necessary that every development or customer interest would be made public. We can assume that if SAC has came again with V 2 that means, there was expected response for the product that they spent in such bird. Heard that flight is expected in a week or so as new year gift.






The Eagle said:


> SU-47 was a technology demonstrator yet FC-31 is pitched as 5th Gen fighter that has to be in category of lethal bird to catch the eyes so let's wait what V 2.0 has got to steal the show. We heard about a potential buyer visit to Shenyang to check the development so it is not necessary that every development or customer interest would be made public. We can assume that if SAC has came again with V 2 that means, there was expected response for the product that they spent in such bird. Heard that flight is expected in a week or so as new year gift.


I am in shenyang.But shenyang aircraft company lack of funds.Countries now to do j-20 aircraft and bombers.No money.China is not so rich as to Pakistan.


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## The Eagle

[QUOTE = "CHINA83NEWS, post: 9029716, member: 181744"] I'm Shenyang. But the company did SAC lack of funds. Countries are now fully do J20 aircraft and bombers. Money ah. China does not want Pakistan so rich.[/QUOTE]

True that project needs customer to go ahead further and currently, all the focus was diverted to J-20 but on other hand it has be realized that J-20 is purely governmental project yet FC-31 is being launched by private company with China and foreign customer in mind. Also, it is not possible for SAC that can come up with 2 birds to demonstrate without Government support however, may need time to flourish fully that too when it has the potential to satsfy the customer either it is PLAAN or PLAAF or PAF or anyone else.

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## CHINA83NEWS

CHINA83NEWS said:


> I am in shenyang.But shenyang aircraft company lack of funds.Countries now to do j-20 aircraft and bombers.No money.China is not so rich as to Pakistan.


Now China aviation talents is a lot of design but cash and the actual need to make a lot of good can only stay in the drawings.


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## The Eagle

CHINA83NEWS said:


> Now China aviation talents is a lot of design but cash and the actual need to make a lot of good can only stay in the drawings.



Being a customer, none would every bargain on immature/less attractive product which is going to cost a lot so let's wait for more cards to be turned.


----------



## CHINA83NEWS

What you said may be Saudi Arabia.J31 design problems on the engine.RD33 engine.Now Russia only to producer in China and Pakistan.Export machine is J31 also use even no.Resistance.



The Eagle said:


> Being a customer, none would every bargain on immature/less attractive product which is going to cost a lot so let's wait for more cards to be turned.


In your opinion F16 stronger than JF17 a lot?Certainly better than LCA right.


----------



## The Eagle

CHINA83NEWS said:


> What you said may be Saudi Arabia.J31 design problems on the engine.RD33 engine.Now Russia only to producer in China and Pakistan.Export machine is J31 also use even no.Resistance.



Well, we must not reach to conclusion for the engine where the Bird has yet to fly its maiden one. However, till the time, the expected FC-31 get matures, in my opinion while gong through different updates regarding Chinese Engine development, it is possible that final product may fly with Chinese engine so till then, no need to waste such precious times and keep going by development of the bird till the final engine arrives which wouldn't take much time to change. Also, for such path, we can see J-20 development that absence of Chinese Engine did not stop the development at all so let's hope for the best.




CHINA83NEWS said:


> In your opinion F16 stronger than JF17 a lot?Certainly better than LCA right.



Those are different subjects so lets not derail the topic here at all. In short, F-16s, JF-17s and LCA, all are different of their types that are developed to fulfill the specific requirements of respective nations. Though F-16s has matured a lot and JF-17 is on the path with 70 birds in inventory of PAF yet with confirm export order to Nigeria and possible to others. 

My opinion was totally directed towards under development FC-31.


----------



## CHINA83NEWS

The Eagle said:


> Well, we must not reach to conclusion for the engine where the Bird has yet to fly its maiden one. However, till the time, the expected FC-31 get matures, in my opinion while gong through different updates regarding Chinese Engine development, it is possible that final product may fly with Chinese engine so till then, no need to waste such precious times and keep going by development of the bird till the final engine arrives which wouldn't take much time to change. Also, for such path, we can see J-20 development that absence of Chinese Engine did not stop the development at all so let's hope for the best.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those are different subjects so lets not derail the topic here at all. In short, F-16s, JF-17s and LCA, all are different of their types that are developed to fulfill the specific requirements of respective nations. Though F-16s has matured a lot and JF-17 is on the path with 70 birds in inventory of PAF yet with confirm export order to Nigeria and possible to others.
> 
> My opinion was totally directed towards under development FC-31.


Hope F31 can last for carrier aircraft as a prototype.So that cost can control can also have national funding support.


----------



## yusheng

SinoSoldier said:


> PSed CGI of the alleged Dark Sword drone (which never progressed beyond the initial concept phase).



and how about these two:


----------



## Deino

@yusheng 

PLAESE !!!!!!! ... these are all faked images and long debunked as such or showing a mock-up, a display model of a F-117-look alike, but not a real bird.

By the way, since - at least me - we are awaiting the FC-31V2's maiden flight with HUUUUUGE impatience, may I beg You to stop posting FC-31-irrelevant images in this thread since I again and again get a heart attack !? Thanks.

Deino

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## yusheng

ok, i stop. just offer something to kill time when waiting for big news....

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## CHINA83NEWS

Deino said:


> @yusheng
> 
> PLAESE !!!!!!! ... these are all faked images and long debunked as such or showing a mock-up, a display model of a F-117-look alike, but not a real bird.
> 
> By the way, since - at least me - we are awaiting the FC-31V2's maiden flight with HUUUUUGE impatience, may I beg You to stop posting FC-31-irrelevant images in this thread since I again and again get a heart attack !? Thanks.
> 
> Deino


J31 2.0 no money.And could be the new new number instead.Otherwise there would be no money.


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## Deino

No news ??? Come on SAC, just let this damn thing fly !!!


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> No news ??? Come on SAC, just let this damn thing fly !!!


haha we have a lot in common then...i come here every 10min to check for news

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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> haha we have a lot in common then...i come here every 10min to check for news




It's really nasty ! Being impatient ... just like an obsession.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> It's really nasty ! Being impatient ... just like an obsession.


i was expecting it today :-(


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> i was expecting it today :-(




Me too

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## The Eagle

IMO, day after tomorrow. @Deino

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## CHINA83NEWS

Is the best mode for J31 Pakistan involved in technology production, sales in China.Yes Pakistan's best not to buy it.Demand for defense can completely rely on China.National infrastructure to go up, education is to improve the power of this.


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## grey boy 2



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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


>


wrong pic...j31v2 is single canopy


----------



## 星海军事

FC-31 2.0 underwent several taxing tests in the past few days. The smog is really heavy according to our frontline source. 

Don't be too hopeful on the details of the plane.

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## WarFariX

星海军事 said:


> FC-31 2.0 underwent several taxing tests in the past few days. The smog is really heavy according to our frontline source.
> 
> Don't be too hopeful on the details of the plane.


You mean we wont get to see the video


----------



## Deino

... if we see it at least in the air + a few better images than the most recent one from behind I'm already happy.

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> FC-31 2.0 underwent several taxing tests in the past few days. The smog is really heavy according to our frontline source.
> 
> Don't be too hopeful on the details of the plane.




Thanks for this head-up ... but in mind of mine (and [EMAIL='MarvellousThunder@PDC's']MarvellousThunder@PDC[/EMAIL][EMAIL='MarvellousThunder@PDC's']'s[/EMAIL]) status close to heart attack, are there any new rumours WHEN it will fly ?? 

Deino

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## Kompromat

Carrier borne fighters tend to have a two piece canopy. 



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> wrong pic...j31v2 is single canopy


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## 52051

grey boy 2 said:


>





Pure fantasy, navy has already rejected this design, and yes, they are more interested in twin-engine heavy fighter as well.


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## grey boy 2

FC-31 V2 1st flight a success this morning, pictures will be release soon

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## UniverseWatcher

grey boy 2 said:


> FC-31 V2 1st flight a success this morning, pictures will be release soon


This is pretty big news, cant wait for the images

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## cirr

Congratulations!

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## The SC

Very good news! Congratulations..

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## cirr



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## 星海军事



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## grey boy 2



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## cirr

WS-13E + 3D printing

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## Zarvan

So is it with new Chinese engine and also what are other changes in radar and avionics ????


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## 帅的一匹

Will PLAN induct FC31? That's all I care about.

i thought it was F22 the first glance I had at the beauty flied in the sky.


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## Avicenna

Gorgeous! Congraulations China!

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## cirr

Maiden flight in snowy and freezing(-7 to -27 Celsius) weather

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## waja2000

Other Image.

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## grey boy 2

FC31 V1 compared to V2

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## Kompromat

Congratulations guys. Chinese industry has matured greatly. Cant wait these birds ti join our wing.

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## Deino

A slightly larger & clearer version of the first image ... so come on; show us more !!!!

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## 帅的一匹

Horus said:


> Congratulations guys. Chinese industry has matured greatly. Cant wait these birds ti join our wing.


I love Pakistan! I wish my son could marry with a Pakistani girl.

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## CHINA83NEWS




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## Deino

CHINA83NEWS said:


>



Image does not show up !! ... only a black box with a white cross.

Could You please do not hot-link any images but upload them here, so if the link is broken, they will still be visible.

Thanks,
Deino

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## Muhammad Omar

Around 10:00 this morning, FC-31 V2 successfully made its maiden flight.











Ooops Sorry i didn't saw the last page 

Well CONGRATSSSS China .....

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## Malik Alashter

So what D30 engine is it chines or russians?.


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## Deino

D30 ??? It uses reportedly a WS-13E or RD-93 (what I don't think !) .. but surely not a Russian D30  ... NEVER ! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soloviev_D-30

Deino

PS: by the way ... almost one hour passed by without a new image ????


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## eldamar

Muhammad Omar said:


> Around 10:00 this morning, FC-31 V2 successfully made its maiden flight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ooops Sorry i didn't saw the last page
> 
> Well CONGRATSSSS China .....



looks like the f22


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## WarFariX

@Deino congrats to us :-D

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## cirr

Deino said:


> D30 ??? It uses reportedly a WS-13E or RD-93 (what I don't think !) .. but surely not a Russian D30  ... NEVER !
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soloviev_D-30
> 
> Deino
> 
> PS: by the way ... almost one hour passed by without a new image ????



You want a new one? I am happy to oblige.

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


>



Is this a yellow J-11B in the background (pointing to the left !)?? Would love to know its serial number.


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Is this a yellow J-11B in the background (pointing to the left !)?? Would love to know its serial number.


A double seat J11D?


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> A double seat J11D?




Why do You think so ? IMO it is clearly a single seater ....

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Why do You think so ? IMO it is clearly a single seater ....
> 
> View attachment 362633


IMO its a mix of single and dual seater...the first one near to fc31 is dual while all others single


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## WarFariX

@Deino when can we expect demo video :-D


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## The Eagle

Congrats guys.... Hope to see this beauty being matured and flying in our colours. Seeing the Flight GIF, V 2.0 was flying aggressively and contrary to the V1 it seems more of improved bird. 

Congratulations again.

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## 52051

Clear picture

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## CHINA83NEWS

52051 said:


> Clear picture


Glass cockpit is also changed

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## 52051

Definitely looks better than F-35, hope it to take over market and put so many fifth generation pretenders that below F-35 out of market.

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## Deino

52051 said:


> Clear picture




So there will be a video out soon ... hopefully !

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## 52051

Since the main purpose of this fighter is exportation, I will expect SAC will release video with HD resolution soon

And by then anything below this fighter will be automatically out of market

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## CHINA83NEWS

Official release




Now look at Japan's plane was far off.Manned and small size model.


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## The Eagle

Picture is not displaying.


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## 52051

The jap joke should be named as the first fifth generation trainer

As for PPT fighters like KFX, AMCA whatever shit, they are DOA even if they can get out of PPT stage some 30 years later

SAC's self-funded/PLA rejected fifth gen fighter will place an entry level bar for any pretenders.

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## The Eagle

Members, no need to drag in unnecessary topic or attract trolls for off-topic discussion that may lead the subject as diverted.

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## Deino

Here's the video:

http://v.ifeng.com/mil/worldwide/201612/0196cce4-d9fb-4b67-91eb-9675d8b16843.shtml

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## CHINA83NEWS

No pelvic fins
The tail also don't like j-20 is full motion.


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## Ultima Thule

CHINA83NEWS said:


> No pelvic fins


?


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## monitor

*Chinese new prototype of the FC-31 fifth-generation jet fighter makes first flight*




The first flight of the new improved prototype of the FC-31 mid-size fifth-generation jet fighter, development by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, took place today in Chengdu, Sichuan province.

The fighter has also been referred to as the “F-60” or “J-21 Snowy Owl” ( in some media reports. Specific details of the aircraft, such as its turbofan engines and onboard systems, are not yet known.

The production-ready FC-31 will also utilize an active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system, infrared search and track (IRST), integrated electro-optical targeting system (EOTS), and single display-panel cockpit (with a side-mounted flight-control stick).

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## Deino

*OHHHHHH come on !!!!

Why always a new thread ????*

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## monitor

Deino said:


> *OHHHHHH come on !!!!
> 
> Why always a new thread ????*



because its might be be significant upgrade over first prototype .

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## Deino

But it is still a FC-31 and similar with so many other threads it's simply annoying to put them together only since a few here are too over-enthusiastic and always start a new one.

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## kuge

monitor said:


> because its might be be significant upgrade over first prototype .


it is still a fc-31 fundamentally. Lets keep the related associated under one roof thread...keep it simple..

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## cnleio

*V2.0*

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## CHINA83NEWS

pakistanipower said:


> ?


Like j-20 under the tail.Stable effect.



eldarlmari said:


> looks like the f22


Making and F35 half-blood.


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## Reichsmarschall

52051 said:


> Definitely looks better than F-35, hope it to take over market and put so many fifth generation pretenders that below F-35 out of market.


how about liscense production in Pakistan


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## The Eagle

@Deino 

https://defence.pk/threads/fc-31-v2-0-first-flight-2016-12-23.468465/

Kindly merge here. Thanks.

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## 艹艹艹

Pitot tube？？

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## dropkix

CHINA83NEWS said:


> No pelvic fins



Someone is very excited indeed about this bird.

Do you think there's enough pelvic thrust?



long_ said:


> Pitot tube？？



Pajji this is a 5th generation stealth fighter. If you show up on the battlefield with pitot tubes hanging left and right, they'll name jabra chowk 2.0 in your honor!


----------



## j20blackdragon

WS-13 is indistinguishable from RD-93.

J-20 engine is indistinguishable from AL-31FN.

Anyone starting to see a pattern here?


----------



## Silicon0000

j20blackdragon said:


> WS-13 is indistinguishable from RD-93.
> 
> J-20 engine is indistinguishable from AL-31FN.
> 
> Anyone starting to see a pattern here?



Are you calling @Dieno


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## j20blackdragon

I hope there are no more doubts that China can make a fully domestic 5th gen fighter.

AESA radar Zhuhai 2016.






FC-31 v2.0 airframe.





huitong confirms domestic WS-13E engines.
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/2012/07/fighters_18.html#FC-31

The latest images suggested that the high-speed taxi test of the 02 prototype started on December 18, 2016. Its first flight took place on December 23, 2016, powered by two smokeless WS-13E engines.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Here's the video:
> 
> http://v.ifeng.com/mil/worldwide/201612/0196cce4-d9fb-4b67-91eb-9675d8b16843.shtml
> View attachment 362670


Bro i expected a flight vid and u ruined my hapiness [emoji22][emoji22][emoji22]


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Bro i expected a flight vid and u ruined my hapiness [emoji22][emoji22][emoji22]




Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa !!!

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## Ultima Thule

CHINA83NEWS said:


> Like j-20 under the tail.Stable effect.


but this is bad for stealth, it will increases RCS from sides


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa !!!


Bro you think later when WS-13E will mature , will they paint it will silver shiny?

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## 52051

According to some AVIC guy I know of, AVIC has an 5th gen engine planned for this fighter, with a thrust-weight ratio beyond 10.However, due to the lack of interests from PLA thus lack of funds, the project is a low proprity one and actually stall for the moment.

Also, there is still internal struggle on whether PRC will grant export license to this fighter since there is some equipment that has been used on J-20 as well, to obtain export license, SAC have to replace such equipments with exportable ones and that may require additional funds.

PLAAF and PLAN both only want twin-engine heavy weight fifth gen fighters, and the light/medium weight fifth gen fighter will be replaced by UAVs.

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> According to some AVIC guy I know of, AVIC has an 5th gen engine planned for this fighter, with a thrust-weight ratio beyond 10.However, due to the lack of interests from PLA thus lack of funds, the project is a low proprity one and actually stall for the moment.
> 
> Also, there is still internal struggle on whether PRC will grant export license to this fighter since there is some equipment that has been used on J-20 as well, to obtain export license, SAC have to replace such equipments with exportable ones and that may require additional funds.
> 
> PLAAF and PLAN both only want twin-engine heavy weight fifth gen fighters, and the light/medium weight fifth gen fighter will be replaced by UAVs.



So, this FC-31 will have little chance of actually being accepted by the PLAAF/PLANAF? I'm guessing this FC-31 will become another "MiG-35" until it finds a buyer.


----------



## royalharris

SinoSoldier said:


> Note the extensive application of carbon-f
> 
> 
> So, this FC-31 will have little chance of actually being accepted by the PLAAF/PLANAF? I'm guessing this FC-31 will become another "MiG-35" until it finds a buyer.


I think there is an opportunity for PLAN,totally china will have at least 6 aircraft carriers,J15 can not confronted with F35，J31 is a good option for PLAN


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## Akasa

royalharris said:


> I think there is an opportunity for PLAN,totally china will have at least 6 aircraft carriers,J15 can not confronted with F35，J31 is a good option for PLAN



It will have to compete with a carrier-borne version of the J-20.


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## Tiqiu

A very insightful article written by the CCTV journalist who has interviewed the rolling-out the prototype J-31 in 2012

Looking in hindsight, he seemed to have confirmed:
1) the use of the Chinese engine on the prototype J-31;
"到后面看看菊花，话说那菊花片闪着异样的蓝色光泽，喷口和尾椎以别扭姿势衔接着，我就感觉，违和感实在太强了，就算你是国菊，“小四”心里明显还是抗拒的，它心里有别人。"
2) it also had two internal weapons bays on the air intake sides;
"比如钻肚子底下去看弹仓（yes），抱着试试看的心情去看下侧弹仓（you wish）"到后面看看菊花，话说那菊花片闪着异样的蓝色光泽，喷口和尾椎以别扭姿势衔接着，我就感觉，违和感实在太强了，就算你是国菊，“小四”心里明显还是抗拒的，它心里有别人。"
3) it was air superiority fighter because the designer said repeatedly it looked very similar to F-22
"一个他一直说，觉得“小四”长相上更像F22，我似乎感受到了F35遭到了嫌弃；"

http://media.weibo.cn/article?id=23...location=35&sudaref=lt.cjdby.net&retcode=6102
* 关于小四的记忆碎片（上） *





战鹰解码记者吴杰
12.23 21:42
阅读 10万+

为一件看不到结果的事情 你能坚持50年么
关于“小四”的记忆碎片（上）

记者就有这点好，有啥热闹，都有机会去看看。

“粽子机”经闹得沸沸扬扬的那年，我奉命去拍“小四”的下线仪式。我很惊讶，因为我第一次到沈飞，不是拍“蔡国庆”，也不是拍“飞鲨”，而是拍“小四”。那时候刚来台里不久，器不大活也不好，加上保密的要求，对象单位也没有提供多少文字资料，仅凭自己在各种军坛里道听途说，就简单策划了一下，基本属于一遭遇战，现在看来，图羊图森破。

插播一下，这个算不得大家说的“官泄”，我们没有什么上峰指示，仅仅凭着自己一点工作热情，对方单位也有这样的意愿，恰好此时，真正的“官”并没管着不让干，仅此而已。





我还是喜欢叫小四
坐高铁去的沈阳，到那是下午，直接去厂房看了现场。这种震撼还是很大的，你不管听过多少黑沈飞的话，到了那里看到传说中的战机就在你面前，而且随便看随便摸，基本跟路上捡块江诗丹顿的表是一个感觉。





中型！中型！不是轻型
“小四”比我想象的小，甚至一时间有过“它是三蹦子改出来”的错觉。（我这是想形容，它看上去很轻盈），整体上很紧凑协调，是架有颜值的飞机。涂装和后来在珠海航展亮相时基本是一样的。我靠到近处仔细看了一下，感觉应该不是期待中的什么隐身涂料，有的地方并不匀，像品质一般的粉底。当然，这只是架工程样机，刚下线。

作为军迷到了传说中的“小四”面前，几个地方必看的，比如钻肚子底下去看弹仓（yes），抱着试试看的心情去看下侧弹仓（you wish），到后面看看菊花，话说那菊花片闪着异样的蓝色光泽，喷口和尾椎以别扭姿势衔接着，我就感觉，违和感实在太强了，就算你是国菊，“小四”心里明显还是抗拒的，它心里有别人。





这发动机是怎么装的？
总装厂房本来也是要当做下线仪式的现场的，所以清理得很干净。基本就剩一架飞机和简单的工装了。厂房北侧应该是设计好的参观区，很多鹘鹰的大比例木质模型摆在那里。有的把机翼折叠了，机翼下面挂着长相酷似鹰击12的弹，设计人员工作时心里惦记着哪家客户，其实还是在模型上体现得很明显。





哪个小四的模型没挂反舰弹的？
接下来的任务是采访。组织采访的哥们知道我算个军迷，特意嘱咐我，别老问技术性的问题，也照顾下他们的宣传需要，问点儿重大成就啊，航空情怀啊啥的，我说没问题，我其实也没打算问啥技术问题，问多了你又不给我播（结果我还是想少了，我后来连带子都没再见过，这是另一个故事）。然后就先请厂里管生产的领导先说，这领导真的是平时憋了一肚子话，拉着我把鹘鹰的总装线说了一溜够，到今天好多东西我也一样听不懂，但知道四代机的生产工作，方法新，精度高，难度大，但因为要干这个型号，咱把家伙事儿都配备齐全了，能力上了一个新台阶。虽说他说的内容我挺难用的，但那神气劲儿，让我能感受到，这是沈飞人扬眉吐气的一天。后面采了几个总装或部装的工人代表，还有女生，都很年轻，80后90前，都兴奋得很，说的比较多的话是：好久没回家看看了。





要说DSI进气和体格综合，小四应该更像F35才是，但事实上看......总师看他的时间比我多
总师肯定是要采的，当天确实没准备，但老总同志已经到现场了，根本来不及，那就聊呗。老总从来就是一个很有性格的人，对电视节目来说是个很好的采访对象，当然当时我并不知道。简单地问了下基本情况，多的真记不住了。有俩细节，一个他一直说，觉得“小四”长相上更像F22，我似乎感受到了F35遭到了嫌弃；另一个，老总说，下回要把起落架好好改改（看了2.0，恩，老总诚不欺我也）。作战半径我记不太清了，但比我想象的大，因为我潜意识里确实也因为它那俩发动机，而担心这是不是米格29的拉皮版。我忍不住问了当时军迷争议得很多的一个问题，鸭翅膀影不影响隐身，其实后来觉得这问得挺傻的，老总也说得挺谨慎，一句话，各有各的办法。“小四”在设计上对隐身还是很在意的，一个细节大家能看到，在小四的机翼上是看不到襟副翼的作动筒，机翼更加光洁顺溜，可以看出设计者的用心。最后老总说得比较多的，是这个飞机，快，研制周期短，制造周期也短，边设计边制造边迭代的模式，X年走完西方发达国家XX年走完的路。这样的话，好多地方我们都听过，但这时我的自豪感却格外明显，因为在我心里，想起了战斗民族的T50，和恒河畔的光辉。

信手拈来的领先水平，才是真正可怕的领先水平

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> A very insightful article written by the CCTV journalist after his interview of the rolling-out the prototype J-31 in 2012
> ....
> 2) it also had two internal weapons bays on the air intake sides;
> ....




But to admit, I highly doubt this statement, since we have never seen any no even on the closest close-up images when that bird was in Zhuhai. And IMO simply since there are none !

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## Dungeness

Deino said:


> But to admit, I highly doubt this statement, since we have never seen any no even on the closest close-up images when that bird was in Zhuhai. And IMO simply since there are none !




Agree. The original reporter used "*you wish*" regarding the side weapon bays.


----------



## CHINA83NEWS

SinoSoldier said:


> So, this FC-31 will have little chance of actually being accepted by the PLAAF/PLANAF? I'm guessing this FC-31 will become another "MiG-35" until it finds a buyer.


The other one?FC - 31 in the big engine thrust is probably another F35. Radar and telex systems are the latest.





Making the bottom looks dirty.


----------



## WarFariX

Guys as admin of fb defence today , i have made a video "Evolution of j-31 by defence today" , do rate it and follow my page www.facebook.com/defense.today and my youtube channel Defence Today
@Deino @CHINA83NEWS @Oscar @zainmalik

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## CHINA83NEWS

Narendra Trump said:


> how about liscense production in Pakistan


A good choice for the engine and JF17 is universal.Like a F16 and F15 collocation.



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Bro you think later when WS-13E will mature , will they paint it will silver shiny?


Like j-20.I think I'm sure I will.



SinoSoldier said:


> It will have to compete with a carrier-borne version of the J-20.


China's domestic development of new models.Means that there is a plane.

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## samsara

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Guys as admin of fb defence today , i have made a video "Evolution of j-31 by defence today" , do rate it and follow my page www.facebook.com/defense.today and my youtube channel Defence Today
> @Deino @CHINA83NEWS @Oscar @zainmalik


Thank you. A nice 7-minute video to recapitulate the development of this jet over years  

I heartedly wish this 5th generation stealth fighter jet will eventually go into mass production. It shows the design and technology prowess of the Chinese engineers and industry. Best wishes.

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## Reichsmarschall

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Guys as admin of fb defence today , i have made a video "Evolution of j-31 by defence today" , do rate it and follow my page www.facebook.com/defense.today and my youtube channel Defence Today
> @Deino @CHINA83NEWS @Oscar @zainmalik


aren't you Mubas**ir from Pakistan defence command??


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## WarFariX

samsara said:


> Thank you. A nice 7-minute video to recapitulate the development of this jet over years
> 
> I heartedly wish this 5th generation stealth fighter jet will eventually go into mass production. It shows the design and technology prowess of the Chinese engineers and industry. Best wishes.


thnx very much


----------



## WarFariX

Narendra Trump said:


> aren't you Mubas**ir from Pakistan defence command??


nope


----------



## WarFariX

Narendra Trump said:


> aren't you Mubas**ir from Pakistan defence command??


i m.his friend...btw may i know who r u [emoji4][emoji5]

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## Reichsmarschall

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> i m.his friend...btw may i know who r u [emoji4][emoji5]


i know him from FB groups

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## kuge




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## WarFariX

hi could someone provide me a chinese source which says that j31 will enter production by 2019 or 2020 plz


----------



## nang2

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> hi could someone provide me a chinese source which says that j31 will enter production by 2019 or 2020 plz


why would you believe that?


----------



## grey boy 2

J-20 and now FC-31

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## samsara

*CCTV 4 中文国际 "Today Focus" 今日关注 2016-12-24:*

_Liaoning carrier formation conducts cross-area training guided by naval commander._
_*Improved J-31, China's second type of stealth fighter, successfully completes maiden flight*_
_Foreign media: Small number of J-16s start military service, may carry YJ-12 missile_




Note: this youtube version, unlike the whole segment aired in the broadcast (about 30 min or roughly so), missed the part concerning the US military plan to deploy the F-22 to the northern Australia in 2017 to counter China in the South China Sea.

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## j20blackdragon

j20blackdragon said:


> huitong confirms domestic WS-13E engines.
> http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/2012/07/fighters_18.html#FC-31
> 
> The latest images suggested that the high-speed taxi test of the 02 prototype started on December 18, 2016. Its first flight took place on December 23, 2016, powered by two smokeless WS-13E engines.



https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/chinas-second-fc-31-takes-flight-432720/

A brief, grainy video purported to be of the flight also indicates that the engines are not smoking. The J-31 that performed during Airshow China in Zhuhai in 2014 was notable for the exhaust produced by its pair of Klimov R-93 engines. This is the same powerplant used in the single-engined Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17, which is also notable for engine exhaust.


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## Beast

j20blackdragon said:


> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/chinas-second-fc-31-takes-flight-432720/
> 
> A brief, grainy video purported to be of the flight also indicates that the engines are not smoking. The J-31 that performed during Airshow China in Zhuhai in 2014 was notable for the exhaust produced by its pair of Klimov R-93 engines. This is the same powerplant used in the single-engined Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17, which is also notable for engine exhaust.



JF-17 didn't smoke that bad with same Ruskie engine.


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## UniverseWatcher

Beast said:


> JF-17 didn't smoke that bad with same Ruskie engine.


So if the RD-93 doesn't smoke that much then there could be a possibility that FC-31 1.0 wasn't carrying RD-93 and maybe an early version of WS-XX

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## j20blackdragon

JF-17 smoke













Old-school MiG-29 smoke

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## Deino

Can we probably better concentrate to the V2 again !??? I think the last images alone seem to prove that it does not use a Russian engine ... or at least not any of the original ones.

Deino

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## Deino

kuge said:


>



An old image from the taxi test on 18. December ... but these two images are new (at least to me) !

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> An old image from the taxi test on 18. December ... but these two images are new (at least to me) !
> 
> View attachment 363071
> View attachment 363072


yes the rear view is new


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> An old image from the taxi test on 18. December ... but these two images are new (at least to me) !
> 
> View attachment 363071
> View attachment 363072


Looks like this is also a carrier borne prototype , Front Pair of wheels


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## UKBengali

Russian RD-33K is smokeless.


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## 帅的一匹

UKBengali said:


> Russian RD-33K is smokeless.


The gap between the rear end and the engine disappear, means the engine on V2 has large diameter.



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Looks like this is also a carrier borne prototype , Front Pair of wheels


It still has a chance to be inducted for PLAN.

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## 帅的一匹

UKBengali said:


> Russian RD-33K is smokeless.


If these engine are still some Russian stuff, SAC can just explode themself.


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## cirr

Deino said:


> An old image from the taxi test on 18. December ... but these two images are new (at least to me) !
> 
> View attachment 363071
> View attachment 363072



MerryXmas

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## Han Patriot

wanglaokan said:


> If these engine are still some Russian stuff, SAC can just explode themself.


I am pretty sure it's a new engine, freaking RDs were famous for being smoky.

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## 帅的一匹

I hate using Russia engine, it attaches stings on our export.

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## 帅的一匹

Han Warrior said:


> I am pretty sure it's a new engine, freaking RDs were famous for being smoky.


WS13A or WS13E? Specification available?


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## UKBengali

wanglaokan said:


> WS13A or WS13E? Specification available?



For WS-13E:

9,000 kg of thrust with 8:8 T/W ratio - in the same class as M88-2/EJ-2000.

This engine will allow J-31 limited supercruise/ supersonic maneuverability.

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## 帅的一匹

UKBengali said:


> For WS-13E:
> 
> 9,000 kg of thrust with 8:8 T/W ratio - in the same class as M88-2/EJ-2000.
> 
> This engine will allow J-31 limited supercruise/ supersonic maneuverability.


The finally target is wet thrust >98KN, T/W ratio 10.


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## Frankenstein9321

I think we should mature jf17 program first.....fc31 also is long way away......pakistan can induct these in 2024.....so pakistan in the mean time should concentrate on JF 17....

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## Awan68

SUPARCO said:


> Impossible. The final version of the aircraft hasn't even come out yet.


Reference to ur little wet dream quotation, ayub succesfully defended pakkstan against a ten times larger enemy, zia saved pakistan from an inpending russian invasion that was after balochistan and moreover his defeat of russia in afghansitan led to the demise of a super power and musharaf saved pakistan from nato by playing zia's game over and defeating nato in afghanistan which led to the world becoming three polar, so grow up twat al three generals u mentioned were the most brilliant generals of thier day and age eclipsing everyobe else beyond borders specially hammed gul and zia..


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## j20blackdragon

UKBengali said:


> Russian RD-33K is smokeless.



No offense, but you can visibly see the smoke from the MiG-29s when the Russian Knights perform.











Photo below is from Zhuhai 2016. Smoke is still there.

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## 帅的一匹

Why the engine nozzle is so black compared with the silver nozzle on the V2 model showed in Zhuhai

why cause so many unnecessary confusion?

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## ashok321

China tests new fighter jet, its answer to US F-35s
BEIJING: China has tested the *latest version of its fifth-generation stealth fighter*, state media reported Monday, as it tries to end the West's monopoly on the world's most advanced warplanes.

The test comes as the nation flexes its military muscles, sending its sole aircraft carrier the Liaoning into the western Pacific in recent days to lead drills there for the first time.

The newest version of the J-31 -- now renamed the FC-31 Gyrfalcon -- took to the air for the first time Friday, the China Daily reported.

The so-called "fifth-generation" twin-engine jet is China's answer to the US F-35, the world's most technically advanced fighter.

The new FC-31 has "better stealth capabilities, improved electronic equipment and a larger payload capacity" than the previous version which debuted in October 2012, the newspaper said, quoting aviation expert Wu Peixin.

"Changes were made to the airframe, wings and vertical tails which make it leaner, lighter and more manoeuvrable," Wu told the paper.

The jet is manufactured by Shenyang Aircraft Corp., a subsidiary of the Aviation Industry Corp of China (AVIC).

The fighter is expected to sell for around $70 million, the article said, aiming to take market share away from more expensive fourth-generation fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon.

AVIC has said that the FC-31 will "put an end to some nations' monopolies on the fifth-generation fighter jet", the China Daily reported.

China is aggressively moving to develop its domestic weapons industry, from drones and anti-aircraft systems to homegrown jet engines.

In the past it has been accused of copying designs from Russian fighters, and some analysts say the FC-31 bears a close resemblance to the F-35.

When completed the FC-31 will become the country's second fifth-generation fighter after the J-20, which put on its first public performance at the Zhuhai Air Show in November.

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## Silicon0000

Any mod please merge these threads

https://defence.pk/threads/sac-fc-3...rcraft-for-paf-updates-debate.343466/page-107


https://defence.pk/threads/china-te...rategically-important-for-india-as-pa.469006/


https://defence.pk/threads/china-te...ng-to-end-wests-monopoly-in-warplanes.468981/


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## grey boy 2



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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


>



Hmm... no EOTS? Did anybody see an EOTS on the new prototype?


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## Deino

To admit, besides the fact alone, that V2 finally appeared and the fun of guessing what's next I'm most of al interested, how the flight testing proceeds. When will it fly again, will we see some more and better images shown more details ... ???

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## Kompromat

More pics please.

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## nature is

Deino said:


> To admit, besides the fact alone, that V2 finally appeared and the fun of guessing what's next I'm most of al interested, how the flight testing proceeds. When will it fly again, will we see some more and better images shown more details ... ???



Of course, be patient.


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> To admit, besides the fact alone, that V2 finally appeared and the fun of guessing what's next I'm most of al interested, how the flight testing proceeds. When will it fly again, will we see some more and better images shown more details ... ???


It's freezing.


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> It's freezing.




Yes, but that's actually only once part of the story ... even if the weather becomes better in spring:

How much will and can SAC invest into this program alone to proceed, is there maybe a secret contact behind, which helps founding ? Will or can SAC anyway establish a decent flight test phase or will it only be tested at snails pace ...

Interesting times ahead ...

Deino


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Yes, but that's actually only once part of the story ... even if the weather becomes better in spring:
> 
> How much will and can SAC invest into this program alone to proceed, is there maybe a secret contact behind, which helps founding ? Will or can SAC anyway establish a decent flight test phase or will it only be tested at snails pace ...
> 
> Interesting times ahead ...
> 
> Deino


What thinking comes to my mind is that , for this v2 , beijing funded it coz v2 will be the real game to attravt buyers....now that when positive response goes from SAC to PAF , And PAF is also impressed then we can expect funding from PAF side as PAF has some money now coz it hasnt bought anything for many years and given that they were ready to throw 300$m for 8 f16s along with FMF , then this means we have at least 300million for procurement


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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> It's freezing.



Just one question: does the FC-31 v2.0 have an EOTS installed? I couldn't see it clearly from the photographs but the landing photo seems to show it under the chin.

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## eldamar

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> What thinking comes to my mind is that , for this v2 , beijing funded it coz v2 will be the real game to attravt buyers....now that when positive response goes from SAC to PAF , And PAF is also impressed then we can expect funding from PAF side as PAF has some money now coz it hasnt bought anything for many years and given that they were ready to throw 300$m for 8 f16s along with FMF , then this means we have at least 300million for procurement


Source that 'beijing' funded this plane pls?


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## WarFariX

eldarlmari said:


> Source that 'beijing' funded this plane pls?


you didnt understand my point....fc31v2 could attract buyers that means more business so beijing might have funded the second prototype as a "lets-see" as this design was very promising and also the fact that pak showed high interesrt


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## eldamar

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> you didnt understand my point....fc31v2 could attract buyers that means more business so beijing might have funded the second prototype as a "lets-see" as this design was very promising and also the fact that pak showed high interesrt


Ok so its just wish-list from a 'wish-so'


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## razgriz19

cirr said:


> MerryXmas
> 
> View attachment 363120



So why such a radical change with the vertical stab?


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## MystryMan

Not many updates from our Chinese friends.


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## The Eagle

So waiting for the second week of the January or what?


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## samsara

The Eagle said:


> So waiting for the second week of the January or what?


Either in early January 2017,,, or wait for quite a time after the Chinese New Year 28 January 2017, it's a very busy festive season around weeks before and after that date

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## The Eagle

samsara said:


> Either in early January 2017,,, or wait for quite a time after the Chinese New Year 28 January 2017, it's a very busy festive season around weeks before and after that date



Yes that could be the reason as well that our Chinese Friends knows better so fingers crossed and till then, we may expect fresh pictures or video clips from last test flight to cheer until next details. Wish you all the best of festive season.

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## mdmm

Today Chinese news media is giving importance to 2 factors. Chinese defence in south china sea against India and western powers .Who want to encage China from outside.For China , external passage for its defence and trade is only CPAC and Russia. In this context CPAC is very important for China. So China will not deny ,if Pakistan ask for J-31 . .China is improving, maxamising its quality of all arms including. J-31 , against its enemies.
But present government of Pakistan is silent due to shortage of money,which is going in to pockets of ruling leaders in Pakistan. For Pakistan today , J-31 aircrafts , Swedish Bofors cannon and Sweedish Orion are very important.Since F-16 will be useless in war because F-16 has satellite control in hands of its maker country .Pakistan need not to sell JF17 and its misslies to others.Like India Pakistan need a big storage of its all arms for future long terms war.Remember Pakistan was down in 1971 due to shortage of all kind of arms.
Kindly force government and Pak army to buy / Acquire J-31 Stealth Fighter and Swedish Bofors cannon and Sweedish Orion .


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## BATMAN

ghauri05 said:


> The video of J-31 posted here, shows its engine release huge amount of smoke trail.what's with that???
> I remember Jf-17 engine also did that but that issue was sorted out


There are reports all over the net, that there was no smoke in latest test flights, happened a week ago.

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## rott

Shaheer ul haq said:


> Wouldn't be a good idea.


I can guarantee China would never sell you a shit plane when it comes to defending a country. They might sell you a shit Iphone but never a Shit Fighter Plane.

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## Secret Service

it is the best option available for Pakistan at the moment. we are not getting anything from west neither from russia. but J31 will take some years.


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## Cookie Monster

I wish the vertical stabilizers on the V2 were all moving like the ones on J20. Since I'm not an expert I don't know if it'll bring any benefit to the design. I just think it looks cooler.


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## ahojunk

*Pictures revealed of China's improved stealth fighter J-31*
2016-12-28 14:10 | People's Daily Online | _Editor: Li Yan_

Recently, pictures of the improved edition of China's stealth fighter J-31 were posted online, indicating a new stage of development for the aircraft. However, Chinese military expert Yin Zhuo told CCTV that it would still be some time before the design is finalized.

The J-31 is a fourth-generation fighter developed by China. It completed its first test flight on Oct. 31, 2012. With the development of the new model, China became the second country testing two models of fourth-generation flights at the same time, after only the U.S.

Compared with the earlier model, exhibited at Airshow China 2014, the improved version has a more aerodynamic design and an expanded weapons bay. Yin said five to seven prototypes are usually tested before a design is finalized.

Yin believes it is possible for the J-31 to be deployed on aircraft carriers in the future, saying that the aircraft's capability to carry out sea and land attacks would be a major asset for carriers.

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## mdmm

Rott.
What did you mean shit fighter plane and shit iPhone ??


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## shhh

rott said:


> I can guarantee China would never sell you a shit plane when it comes to defending a country. They might sell you a shit Iphone but never a Shit Fighter Plane.



I didnt say that because Chines tech is shit (it isnt)
I said it because maintaining both these jets will be expensive


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## Beast

Shaheer ul haq said:


> I didnt say that because Chines tech is shit (it isnt)
> I said it because maintaining both these jets will be expensive


We used to have Pakistanis brag abt buying euro typhoon and now we have Pakistanis concern about maintaining cost of a 5th gen fighter?

It's better spend money on future rather than an lower tech weapon, right?

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## Asoka

3D printing laser additive manufacturing technique for creating Titanium bulkheads used in large aircrafts, rockets and fifth generation fighters.

The bulkhead is a large piece of critical component used in aircraft frame to carry most of the load. It's very expensive and time consuming to make. Using 3D printing, its takes only 1/5 of the usual time, and lower the cost.

No doubt this technique is already being used in producing J-20, and J-15.

"在北京航空航天大学展台处，记者就看到了一具使用大型金属构件激光增材制造(即*3D打印*)技术所生产的大型部件。据现场工作人员介绍，这具大型部件是航空飞行器所使用的机体部件之一。在宣传展板上，记者也留意到，北航激光增材制造近50件大型关键钛合金、超高强度钢构件，通过大型运输机、大型客机、舰载机、新型火箭等装备的静强度、动强度、疲劳寿命、冲击、震动等全尺寸零件试验考核。"

*http://www.bjxdbdexpo.com/news2.asp?id=504*

This bulkhead is obviously for a twin engines fighter aircraft.

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## Ultima Thule

Asok said:


> 3D printing laser additive manufacturing technique for creating Titanium bulkheads used in large aircrafts, rockets and fifth generation fighters.
> 
> The bulkhead is a large piece of critical component used in aircraft frame to carry most of the load. It's very expensive and time consuming to make. Using 3D printing, its takes only 1/5 of the usual time, and lower the cost.
> 
> No doubt this technique is already being used in producing J-20, and J-15.
> 
> "在北京航空航天大学展台处，记者就看到了一具使用大型金属构件激光增材制造(即*3D打印*)技术所生产的大型部件。据现场工作人员介绍，这具大型部件是航空飞行器所使用的机体部件之一。在宣传展板上，记者也留意到，北航激光增材制造近50件大型关键钛合金、超高强度钢构件，通过大型运输机、大型客机、舰载机、新型火箭等装备的静强度、动强度、疲劳寿命、冲击、震动等全尺寸零件试验考核。"
> 
> *http://www.bjxdbdexpo.com/news2.asp?id=504*
> 
> View attachment 367312


it look like a giant sunglass for me bro


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## Deino

Asok said:


> ...*504*
> 
> This bulkhead is obviously for a twin engines fighter aircraft.
> View attachment 367312




most likely the FC-31 You hate so much !

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## Asoka

Deino said:


> most likely the FC-31 You hate so much !



Most likely, FC-31 will not see the light of the day. There is persistent campaign on the internet forum organized by you-know-who, to push the PLAAF to buy this junky, little piece of crap. They started all kinds of suggestions that PLAAF should produce only 200 J-20 and produce 1000+ FC-31 for PLAAF and PLAN.

PLAAF is organizing a group of internet users to push back.

The war will intensify.


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## Deino

Honestly, I don't understand Your hate on that bird ??

With a decent engine it could indeed be developed into a mature fifth-generation fighter operating alongside the "silver-bullet" J-20. It is smaller and as such more affordable and technically-wise there's nothing to thing at first glance to make it a piece of crap.

I have simply the feeling You don't like the F-35 and in return the FC-312 too, which is plain irrational and also unfair.

By the way, I think the PLAAF is its own way of acting and decision making completely irrelevant to what the internet-community thinks; and I'm convinced that is good that way.
Otherwise the Su-35 would not be purchased ... and so many other things too. There's simply too much ignorance and incompetence around in these forums and national defence is too important to depend on such fan-boy's opinions.

But now back to the topic.
Deino

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## 帅的一匹

Asok said:


> Most likely, FC-31 will not see the light of the day. There is persistent campaign on the internet forum organized by you-know-who, to push the PLAAF to buy this junky, little piece of crap. They started all kinds of suggestions that PLAAF should produce only 200 J-20 and produce 1000+ FC-31 for PLAAF and PLAN.
> 
> PLAAF is fighting back by organize a group of internet users to push back.
> 
> The war will intensify.


You don't have to call it little junky crap, you have to consider the mood of Pakistanis. Will you pay billions for a little junky crap? 你讲话有点夸张的成分, 拆自己的台毁自己的出口生意有劲么？空军那帮家伙就认准歼20了，根本不会让FC31唱主角的。但是不代表fc31就一点机会也没有。



Deino said:


> Honestly, I don't understand Your hate on that bird ??
> 
> With a decent engine it could indeed be developed into a mature fifth-generation fighter operating alongside the "silver-bullet" J-20. It is smaller and as such more affordable and technically-wise there's nothing to thing at first glance to make it a piece of crap.
> 
> I have simply the feeling You don't like the F-35 and in return the FC-312 too, which is plain irrational and also unfair.
> 
> By the way, I think the PLAAF is its own way of acting and decision making completely irrelevant to what the internet-community thinks; and I'm convinced that is good that way.
> Otherwise the Su-35 would not be purchased ... and so many other things too. There's simply too much ignorance and incompetence around in these forums and national defence is too important to depend on such fan-boy's opinions.
> 
> But now back to the topic.
> Deino


If it can fit a engine at EJ200 level, it's a pretty fine bird.

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## Asoka

Deino said:


> Honestly, I don't understand Your hate on that bird ??
> 
> With a decent engine it could indeed be developed into a mature fifth-generation fighter operating alongside the "silver-bullet" J-20. It is smaller and as such more affordable and technically-wise there's nothing to thing at first glance to make it a piece of crap.
> 
> I have simply the feeling You don't like the F-35 and in return the FC-312 too, which is plain irrational and also unfair.
> 
> By the way, I think the PLAAF is its own way of acting and decision making completely irrelevant to what the internet-community thinks; and I'm convinced that is good that way.
> Otherwise the Su-35 would not be purchased ... and so many other things too. There's simply too much ignorance and incompetence around in these forums and national defence is too important to depend on such fan-boy's opinions.
> 
> But now back to the topic.
> Deino



You don't understand Chinese politics, Deino. CAC is the parent corporation of Shenyang Aviation and ChengDu Aviation. CAC's leadership is dominated by Shenyang people. Shenyang is mother of ChengDu and other smaller aviation company. In the 1960's, China decided to spread its heavy industries away from NorthEast or Manchuria into the mountainous region in preparation for war with USSR.

So how do you split up the company?

Those people who has *connections* got to stay in Shenyang, and other folks got to pack up and move to those poor mountainous regions. When they got there, they have start everything by themselves. There was no buildings, no equipments, just their bare hands. They live like peasants, grow their own foods, raise their own pigs.

Those folks at ChengDu are tough and dedicated. They managed to create *J-7, FC-17, J-10, and F-20* under extreme conditions. And what did those people in Shenyang managed to create? *J-8*. It was developed for export, but not one was sold to foreign customers. Whereas, J-7 and FC-17 was an export success. Through their better connections to higher Chinese leadership, the job of assemble Su-27 domestically was given to them. Later, they copy it and call it J-11B.

Those Shenyang people are extremely jealous of the ChengDu. They lose the J-20 design competition to ChengDu, so they come up with FC-31, supposedly for export. There is no need for PLAAF or PLAN for such plane. That's why both Services have not shown the least bit of interest toward it.

But there is little or no chance that foreign buyers will order, unless the Chinese PLAAF or PLAN will order some first. So those Shenyang people started this silly internet forums and TV shows campaign.

*"By the way, I think the PLAAF is its own way of acting and decision making completely irrelevant to what the internet-community thinks; and I'm convinced that is good that way."*

Don't under estimate their influences. Those people are very good at politics and are well connected. They are the second or third generations of the Chinese leaders.

They tried to get rid of Yang Wei, the Chief Designer of J-20, by promote him into a useless desk job. Typical Chinese politic to get rid a good competent person. The PLAAF fought back, saying, unless Yang Wei keep his duty with J-20, we will not pay.

F-35 has the most powerful production engine in the world, and has the State of the Art Avionics. FC-31 has nothing except the stealth shaping exterior. The internal weapon bay can severely limits the weapon load, fuel load, and range.

FC-31 is a straight, cheap, knock-off of F-22, not F-35. The lack of imagination and creativity by the Shenyang people is startling and plainly demonstrated in this crap. This junk makes me ashamed to be a Chinese. They are trying to sell it to our loyal brother and friend, the Pakinstanis. Run!

If an animal walks like duck, cracks like a duck, it is a duck. Deino.

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## 帅的一匹

Asok said:


> You don't understand Chinese politics, Deino. CAC is the parent corporation of Shenyang Aviation and ChengDu Aviation. CAC's leadership is dominated by Shenyang people. Shenyang is mother of ChengDu and other smaller aviation company. In the 1960's, China decided to spread its heavy industries away from NorthEast or Manchuria into the mountainous region in preparation for war with USSR.
> 
> So how do you split up the company?
> 
> Those people who has *connections* got to stay in Shenyang, and other folks got to pack up and move to those poor mountainous regions. When they got there, they have start everything by themselves. There was no buildings, no equipments, just their bare hands. They live like peasants, grow their own foods, raise their own pigs.
> 
> Those folks at ChengDu are tough and dedicated. They managed to create *J-7, FC-17, J-10, and F-20* under extreme conditions. And what did those people in Shenyang managed to create? *J-8*. It was developed for export, but not one was sold to foreign customers. Whereas, J-7 and FC-17 was an export success. Through their better connections to higher Chinese leadership, the job of assemble Su-27 domestically was given to them. Later, they copy it and call it J-11B.
> 
> Those Shenyang people are extremely jealous of the ChengDu. They lose the J-20 design competition to ChengDu, so they come up with FC-31, supposedly for export. There is no need for PLAAF or PLAN for such plane. That's why both Services have not shown the least bit of interest toward it.
> 
> But there is little or no chance that foreign buyers will order, unless the Chinese PLAAF or PLAN will order some first. So those Shenyang people started this silly internet forums and TV shows campaign.
> 
> *"By the way, I think the PLAAF is its own way of acting and decision making completely irrelevant to what the internet-community thinks; and I'm convinced that is good that way."*
> 
> Don't under estimate their influences. Those people are very good at politics and are well connected. They are the second or third generations of the Chinese leaders.
> 
> They tried to get rid of Yang Wei, the Chief Designer of J-20, by promote him into a useless desk job. Typical Chinese politic to get rid a good competent person. The PLAAF fought back, saying, unless Yang Wei keep his duty with J-20, we will not pay.
> 
> F-35 has the most powerful production engine in the world, and has the State of the Art Avionics. FC-31 has nothing except the stealth shaping exterior. The internal weapon bay can severely limits the weapon load, fuel load, and range.
> 
> FC-31 is a straight, cheap, knock-off of F-22, not F-35. The lack of imagination and creativity by the Shenyang people is startling and plainly demonstrated in this crap. This junk makes me ashamed to be a Chinese. They are trying to sell it to our loyal brother and friend, the Pakinstanis. Run!
> 
> If an animal walks like duck, cracks like a duck, it is a duck. Deino.


Shengyang also developed J11d and J16. I've admit they lack of the motivation and creativity as ChengDu has. But You shall not call FC31 a crap, that's little bit over the top.

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## Asoka

wanglaokan said:


> Shengyang also developed J11d and J16. I've admit they lack of the motivation and creativity as ChengDu has. But You shall not call FC31 a crap, that's little bit over the top.



I admit J-11d, J-15 and J-16 are pretty good. That's because Su-27 were very good in the beginning. 

May be calling FC-31 a crap is over the top. I have to admit. 

I have no liking of it, when it was first shown carrying on a truck covered up with a tarp. It may still be developed into something decent, if Shenyang put some thoughts into it. But that requires a new design team and a new leadership. 

It has two engines, and its not burdened with ridiculous design requirements like F-35. So there is still some hope, I admit.

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## 帅的一匹

Asok said:


> I admit J-11d, J-15 and J-16 are pretty good. That's because Su-27 were very good in the beginning.
> 
> May be calling FC-31 a crap is over the top. I have to admit.
> 
> I have no liking of it, when it was first shown carrying on a truck covered up with a tarp. It may still be developed into something decent, if Shenyang put some thoughts into it. But that requires a new design team and a new leadership.
> 
> It has two engines, and its not burdened with ridiculous design requirements like F-35. So there is still some hope, I admit.


We just need to believe Xi JingPing and his team. Recently Yaoming might be nominated as the chairman of China basketball association, means the political reform has started. Given a decent engine, FC31 will be a great platform. Both ChengDu Shengyang are kids of the PRC, will a mother love a son more because he is more competent than another? I know Yang Wei is very competent, but he has to follow the order of central committee.

杨伟要记住他是国家干部，成飞不是他家开的公司。如果什么事情都要斩尽杀绝，分彼此你我，他就不是一个合格的干部！如果国家需要他到北京，他就必须去。我不相信国家会为了所谓沈飞的裙带关系就把杨伟废掉！说句实话，林左鸣都走了，杨伟也不算什么。

你杨伟吃肉，总要留一口汤给沈飞喝。

Now it's fully obvious that China won't export J20. We must support ShengYang to develop FC31 for export. When needed, 611 has to help 601. It's a national interest at stake, not personal one.

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## Deino

Asok said:


> I admit J-11d, J-15 and J-16 are pretty good. That's because Su-27 were very good in the beginning.
> 
> May be calling FC-31 a crap is over the top. I have to admit.
> 
> I have no liking of it, when it was first shown carrying on a truck covered up with a tarp. It may still be developed into something decent, if Shenyang put some thoughts into it. But that requires a new design team and a new leadership.
> 
> It has two engines, and its not burdened with ridiculous design requirements like F-35. So there is still some hope, I admit.




Then at least try to argue !?

Why should a design based around the outher lines - and here You are again plain wrong; it is not a cheap know-off - of the F-22 be wrong?

So fra I got not a single technical argument that disqualifies the FC-31 from the start as crap as You call it.

Deino


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## Asoka

wanglaokan said:


> We just need to believe Xi JingPing and his team. Recently Yaoming might be nominated as the chairman of China basketball association, means the political reform has started. Given a decent engine, FC31 will be a great platform. Both ChengDu Shengyang are kids of the PRC, will a mother love a son more because he is more competent than another? I know Yang Wei is very competent, but he has to follow the order of central committee.
> 
> 杨伟要记住他是国家干部，成飞不是他家开的公司。如果什么事情都要斩尽杀绝，分彼此你我，他就不是一个合格的干部！如果国家需要他到北京，他就必须去。我不相信国家会为了所谓沈飞的裙带关系就把杨伟废掉！说句实话，林左鸣都走了，杨伟也不算什么。
> 
> 你杨伟吃肉，总要留一口汤给沈飞喝。
> 
> Now it's fully obvious that China won't export J20. We must support ShengYang to develop FC31 for export. When needed, 611 has to help 601. It's a national interest at stake, not personal one.



Sounds like you are one of those Shenyang boys on the internet. Yang Wei is one of those rare and outstanding aviation engineering talent in the world. Get rid of him, so he can't work in his field, because he is good, could only happen in a hopeless country, that is going down the drain.

I am glad he got to keep his job and stay in Chengdu and do his work for his country .



Deino said:


> Then at least try to argue !?
> 
> Why should a design based around the outher lines - and here You are again plain wrong; it is not a cheap know-off - of the F-22 be wrong?
> 
> So fra I got not a single technical argument that disqualifies the FC-31 from the start as crap as You call it.
> 
> Deino



The problem is positioning. How should FC-31 fit in. It makes no sense to make a* medium* or small size plane with an *internal weapon bay*. 

That is for *large and heavy *plane. Even for the size of F-22, the internal space became very tight, once you used up the space to store 6 medium range missiles and two small missiles. 

And you also need to store sufficient amount of fuel internally. And you also have to squeeze in all other equipments. 

The F-35 is overheating and they can't put a bigger AC unit in it. No room left. This is a very serious problem for any electrical and electronic equipment.

I also suspect there is no more spare space left in F-22 to upgrade or stuff in more equipments. Look at these pictures. You can clearly see all spaces are max. out. Equipments and cables are densely packed in.











So to design FC-31 as a medium fighter with an *internal weapon bay*, makes zero sense, stealth or not. And if it wants to go for the *large and heavy fighter* route, China already got J-20. No need for another plane of that size.

I don't even need to bring out other technical issues. This size problem alone, will nail FC-31's coffin shut.

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## Deino

Asok said:


> Sounds like you are one of those Shenyang boys on the internet. Yang Wei is one of those rare and outstanding aviation engineering talent in the world. Get rid of him, so he can't work in his field, because he is good, could only happen in a hopeless country, that is going down the drain.
> 
> I am glad he got to keep his job and stay in Chengdu and do his work for his country .
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is positioning. How should FC-31 fit in. It makes no sense to have a plane with an internal weapon bay that is medium size or smaller size. That is for large and heavy plane. Even for the size of F-22, the internal space became very tight, once you used up the space to store 6 medium range missiles and two small missiles. And you also need to store sufficient amount of fuel internally. And you also have to squeeze in all other equipments. The F-35 is overheating and they can't put a bigger AC unit in it. No room left. This is a very serious problem for any electrical and electronic equipment.
> 
> I also suspect there is no more spare space in F-22 to upgrade or stuff in more equipments. Look at these pictures. You can clearly see all spaces are max. out. Equipments and cables are densely packed in.
> 
> View attachment 367465
> 
> 
> View attachment 367466
> 
> So to design FC-31 as a medium fighter with an *internal weapon bay*, makes zero sense, stealth or not. And if it wants to go for the *large and heavy fighter* route, China already got J-20. No need for another plane of that size.
> 
> I don't even need to bring out other technical issues. This size problem alone, will nail FC-31's coffin shut.




To admit, IMO this is not an issue. The point of overheating the F-35 is not a serious issue as You might deem - at least You find so much varying reports about the Lightning from the worst critics to the highest praise ! And I really can't think that the US military is that stupid that thy continue if it is that bad as the worst critics say.
Even more after the first wave of attacks even with external loads this type could be a suitable fighter ... as a carrier type esp. off the smaller Type 001/001A carriers.

All it lacks IMO is a decent engine. As @wanglaokan noted; an engine in the class of the EJ-200 would solve this issue.

Besides the export-argument I see an even more important issue: for SAC it is probably the final card to play to stay in fighter business after the Flanker series will end some day. As such alone from the industrial point of view it is more than important to keep this capability at SAC and leave not CAC alone in the field of fighter aircraft design in CHina. 

But maybe - similar to the J-20 thread - we have again simply different opinions.

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## Asoka

Deino said:


> To admit, IMO this is not an issue. The point of overheating the F-35 is not a serious issue as You might deem - at least You find so much varying reports about the Lightning from the worst critics to the highest praise ! And I really can't think that the US military is that stupid that thy continue if it is that bad as the worst critics say.
> Even more after the first wave of attacks even with external loads this type could be a suitable fighter ... as a carrier type esp. off the smaller Type 001/001A carriers.
> 
> All it lacks IMO is a decent engine. As @wanglaokan noted; an engine in the class of the EJ-200 would solve this issue.
> 
> Besides the export-argument I see an even more important issue: for SAC it is probably the final card to play to stay in fighter business after the Flanker series will end some day. As such alone from the industrial point of view it is more than important to keep this capability at SAC and leave not CAC alone in the field of fighter aircraft design in CHina.
> 
> But maybe - similar to the J-20 thread - we have again simply different opinions.



*"for SAC it is probably the final card to play to stay in fighter business after the Flanker series will end some day"*

True, that is a serious issue facing any fighter plane company. Many US companies were merged because of lack of orders. Shenyang could still make J-15 for PLAN for the foreseeable future. China will probably have at least 5 Aircraft Carriers. We have one already, another one's hulk is almost finished, and another one with catapult is already started.

J-10 and J-11, J-11B will need to be replaced down the road. Shengyan could work a replacement for them. Stealth with internal weapon bay for a medium size plane is a trap. Don't fall into it.

That's the point, I want to make.

*"And I really can't think that the US military is that stupid that thy continue if it is that bad as the worst critics say."*

The F-35 problems are more serious than we think. The MSM is in LockeedMartin's pocket. They are not reporting them much. Now, at least one Publication is openly calling for its cancellation. That's not going to happen, IMO. US and its allies are stuck with it.

*http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...should-cancel-failed-f-35-fighter-jet-program*


----------



## Kompromat

From what I know, the PAF has communicated its interest in the CAC J-20 to the officials in Beijing. 



Asok said:


> You don't understand Chinese politics, Deino. CAC is the parent corporation of Shenyang Aviation and ChengDu Aviation. CAC's leadership is dominated by Shenyang people. Shenyang is mother of ChengDu and other smaller aviation company. In the 1960's, China decided to spread its heavy industries away from NorthEast or Manchuria into the mountainous region in preparation for war with USSR.
> 
> So how do you split up the company?
> 
> Those people who has *connections* got to stay in Shenyang, and other folks got to pack up and move to those poor mountainous regions. When they got there, they have start everything by themselves. There was no buildings, no equipments, just their bare hands. They live like peasants, grow their own foods, raise their own pigs.
> 
> Those folks at ChengDu are tough and dedicated. They managed to create *J-7, FC-17, J-10, and F-20* under extreme conditions. And what did those people in Shenyang managed to create? *J-8*. It was developed for export, but not one was sold to foreign customers. Whereas, J-7 and FC-17 was an export success. Through their better connections to higher Chinese leadership, the job of assemble Su-27 domestically was given to them. Later, they copy it and call it J-11B.
> 
> Those Shenyang people are extremely jealous of the ChengDu. They lose the J-20 design competition to ChengDu, so they come up with FC-31, supposedly for export. There is no need for PLAAF or PLAN for such plane. That's why both Services have not shown the least bit of interest toward it.
> 
> But there is little or no chance that foreign buyers will order, unless the Chinese PLAAF or PLAN will order some first. So those Shenyang people started this silly internet forums and TV shows campaign.
> 
> *"By the way, I think the PLAAF is its own way of acting and decision making completely irrelevant to what the internet-community thinks; and I'm convinced that is good that way."*
> 
> Don't under estimate their influences. Those people are very good at politics and are well connected. They are the second or third generations of the Chinese leaders.
> 
> They tried to get rid of Yang Wei, the Chief Designer of J-20, by promote him into a useless desk job. Typical Chinese politic to get rid a good competent person. The PLAAF fought back, saying, unless Yang Wei keep his duty with J-20, we will not pay.
> 
> F-35 has the most powerful production engine in the world, and has the State of the Art Avionics. FC-31 has nothing except the stealth shaping exterior. The internal weapon bay can severely limits the weapon load, fuel load, and range.
> 
> FC-31 is a straight, cheap, knock-off of F-22, not F-35. The lack of imagination and creativity by the Shenyang people is startling and plainly demonstrated in this crap. This junk makes me ashamed to be a Chinese. They are trying to sell it to our loyal brother and friend, the Pakinstanis. Run!
> 
> If an animal walks like duck, cracks like a duck, it is a duck. Deino.

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## Akasa

Asok said:


> Through their better connections to higher Chinese leadership, the job of assemble Su-27 domestically was given to them. Later, they copy it and call it J-11B.



The J-11B adopted the Su-27SK's airframe, but its subsystems and weaponry were sourced from Chinese vendors. Add in airframe enhancements, FBW upgrades, integration with wholly new electronics & armament, and the development becomes significantly more complex than a mere case of reverse-engineering.

The number of J-11A/B/15/16 either matches or outstrips that of the J-10.



Asok said:


> F-35 has the most powerful production engine in the world, and has the State of the Art Avionics. FC-31 has nothing except the stealth shaping exterior. The internal weapon bay can severely limits the weapon load, fuel load, and range.



A couple of points here:
- If the FC-31 uses 2x 100 kN class WS-13E, its total thrust actually matches that of the F-35.
- Both the F-35 and FC-31 use DAS, EOTS, a fairly large AESA radar, as well as HMS & HUD. Without knowing the technical details of the accompanying systems, no one can make a fair judgment of FC-31 vs F-35.

As emphasized at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow, the FC-31's internal bay can actually accommodate 6 air-to-air missiles, 4 ASMs, or four 1000-lb-class bombs. That is not a poor loadout for a fighter of its size and even matches that of the F-22 in terms of payload versatility.



Asok said:


> FC-31 is a straight, cheap, knock-off of F-22, not F-35.

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## 帅的一匹

Asok said:


> Sounds like you are one of those Shenyang boys on the internet. Yang Wei is one of those rare and outstanding aviation engineering talent in the world. Get rid of him, so he can't work in his field, because he is good, could only happen in a hopeless country, that is going down the drain.
> 
> I am glad he got to keep his job and stay in Chengdu and do his work for his country .
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is positioning. How should FC-31 fit in. It makes no sense to make a* medium* or small size plane with an *internal weapon bay*.
> 
> That is for *large and heavy *plane. Even for the size of F-22, the internal space became very tight, once you used up the space to store 6 medium range missiles and two small missiles.
> 
> And you also need to store sufficient amount of fuel internally. And you also have to squeeze in all other equipments.
> 
> The F-35 is overheating and they can't put a bigger AC unit in it. No room left. This is a very serious problem for any electrical and electronic equipment.
> 
> I also suspect there is no more spare space left in F-22 to upgrade or stuff in more equipments. Look at these pictures. You can clearly see all spaces are max. out. Equipments and cables are densely packed in.
> 
> View attachment 367465
> 
> 
> View attachment 367466
> 
> So to design FC-31 as a medium fighter with an *internal weapon bay*, makes zero sense, stealth or not. And if it wants to go for the *large and heavy fighter* route, China already got J-20. No need for another plane of that size.
> 
> I don't even need to bring out other technical issues. This size problem alone, will nail FC-31's coffin shut.


Actually I'm comin from south, I'm not those what you call ShengYang guys. There is always a reason why Yang Wei has a job transfer, why make it sound like a political persecution? Rumors around nowadays, so don't screw it.

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## shhh

Beast said:


> We used to have Pakistanis brag abt buying euro typhoon and now we have Pakistanis concern about maintaining cost of a 5th gen fighter?
> 
> It's better spend money on future rather than an lower tech weapon, right?



I am not really sure what you are trying to say.
5th Gen fighter is our future need


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## MystryMan

Horus said:


> From what I know, the PAF has communicated its interest in the CAC J-20 to the officials in Beijing.


Previously we heard that PAF has shown interest in FC-31. Does it means PAF is looking at both the designs and haven't decided yet to go with one over the other.


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## Deino

Horus said:


> From what I know, the PAF has communicated its interest in the CAC J-20 to the officials in Beijing.




Honestly ... I still don't think the PAF will get the J-20 nor that the J-20 will be exported ever.
Exactly for this the FC-31 is under development.


By the way ... I want clearer images !!!

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## Kompromat

I know the reason why you'd believe that. What im reporting here is what i received from the PAF. It is also likely that PAF might prefer acquiring technologies used in J-20s to be integrated in the J-31 airframe.



Deino said:


> Honestly ... I still don't think the PAF will get the J-20 nor that the J-20 will be exported ever.
> Exactly for this the FC-31 is under development.
> 
> 
> By the way ... I want clearer images !!!

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## cirr

FC-31‘s cockpit now officially confirmed: 





*中航工业在第十一届中国航展上首次公开“鹘鹰”战斗机先进座舱*

http://www.cannews.com.cn/2017/0113/161984_2.shtml

The J-16's is said to have a similar layout and functions such as touch control/voice control etc

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> FC-31‘s cockpit now officially confirmed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *中航工业在第十一届中国航展上首次公开“鹘鹰”战斗机先进座舱*
> 
> http://www.cannews.com.cn/2017/0113/161984_2.shtml



Does the V2.0 prototype have an EOTS?


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## Deino

cirr said:


> FC-31‘s cockpit now officially confirmed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *中航工业在第十一届中国航展上首次公开“鹘鹰”战斗机先进座舱*
> 
> http://www.cannews.com.cn/2017/0113/161984_2.shtml
> 
> The J-16's is said to have a similar layout and functions such as touch control/voice control etc




Has anyone saved that cockpit-image and can upload it here? All I see is a blank-placeholder.

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## grey boy 2



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## The Eagle

Picture is from Zhuhai Airshow China 2016....... Still, its an advance cockpit design and if opted then it is a big step indeed. And, IRST in front Cockpit....

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## Deino

Any news ?? Or do we need to wait until after news year holydays, until spring, summer, ... summer 2019 !

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Any news ?? Or do we need to wait until after news year holydays, until spring, summer, ... summer 2019 !


most probably something by feb 8...btw i have gr8 but undisclosed news on FC31....i cant tell


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## Deino

[EMAIL said:


> MarvellousThunder@PDC, post: 9119460, member: 180031[/EMAIL]]...btw i have gr8 but undisclosed news on FC31....i cant tell




You are hurting me !!! My impatience again ....

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## grey boy 2

FC-31 looks good in J-20 color. nice PS?

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## Muhammad Omar

grey boy 2 said:


> FC-31 looks good in J-20 color. nice PS?



looks simply awesome


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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> FC-31 looks good in J-20 color. nice PS?


 

Yes for sure a well known - and old - PS ... anyway I hope when we will see FC-31V2 next time it is no longer naked !  And this is surely an appropriate scheme.


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Yes for sure a well known - and old - PS ... anyway I hope when we will see FC-31V2 next time it is no longer naked !  And this is surely an appropriate scheme.


yes yes u will see the new beast with dress soon .....IYKWIM


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> yes yes u will see the new beast with dress soon .....IYKWIM




And what else ?? ... come on, just a bit of new information !!!! PLEASE.


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> And what else ?? ... come on, just a bit of new information !!!! PLEASE.



Highly doubtful that he actually has information we don't already know.

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## grey boy 2



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## WarFariX

SinoSoldier said:


> Highly doubtful that he actually has information we don't already know.


no...i know much info..i m not a troller plz


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## Akasa

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> no...i know much info..i m not a troller plz



Okay. Such as...?


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## WarFariX

SinoSoldier said:


> Okay. Such as...?


i was the first person on pdf to inform in october that fc31 wont fly in zhuhai rather in dec


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## Akasa

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> i was the first person on pdf to inform in october that fc31 wont fly in zhuhai rather in dec



The question boils down to this: do you have insider information or are you simply good at making predictions?


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## WarFariX

SinoSoldier said:


> The question boils down to this: do you have insider information or are you simply good at making predictions?


a good predictor with bit of insider knowledge...whjatever i post here is my prediction...which is supported by many proofs


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## Akasa

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> a good predictor with bit of insider knowledge...whjatever i post here is my prediction...which is supported by many proofs



Okay, then. Back to the original topic; what makes you think the FC-31 2.0 would be painted soon?


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## WarFariX

SinoSoldier said:


> Okay, then. Back to the original topic; what makes you think the FC-31 2.0 would be painted soon?


ignore my painting comment..that was just an ironic comment...meaning that it will be soon LRIP (2019)


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## Akasa

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> ignore my painting comment..that was just an ironic comment...meaning that it will be soon LRIP (2019)



Implying that a military branch has already purchased it? Or is that merely further speculation?


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## WarFariX

SinoSoldier said:


> Implying that a military branch has already purchased it? Or is that merely further speculation?


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## 帅的一匹

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


>


Wow! That's a explosive breaking news!

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## Deino

seems as if he's still speechless !

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## Deino

O.k. guys at SAC ... New Year is over, we've seen some news from the J-20 and J-10, even a new clear image of the Su-35 was posted ... so it's Your turn !

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## cirr

Deino said:


> O.k. guys at SAC ... New Year is over, we've seen some news from the J-20 and J-10, even a new clear image of the Su-35 was posted ... so it's Your turn !



New Year is not over till Monday next.

According to the Lunar Calendar, the last day of this year's Spring Festival falls on 11th Feb. 

Anyway, we will see the 2nd prototype of the FC-31 sometime in the 2nd half of 2017, or with a stroke of luck in Q2.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> New Year is not over till Monday next.
> 
> According to the Lunar Calendar, the last day of this year's Spring Festival falls on 11th Feb.
> 
> Anyway, we will see the 2nd prototype of the FC-31 sometime in the 2nd half of 2017, or with a stroke of luck in Q2.



Thanks ! But is there a reason why only "sometime in the 2nd half of 2017, or with a stroke of luck in Q2" !

Is this due to tighter security issues or that a lack of founding only permits so few flights ??? Are the technical issues ??

Deino

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## WarFariX

FC-31v2 video

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## Akasa

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> FC-31v2 video



Sorry, but the link is not showing up.

Is it the same one as this: http://v.ifeng.com/mil/worldwide/201612/0196cce4-d9fb-4b67-91eb-9675d8b16843.shtml

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## WarFariX

SinoSoldier said:


> Sorry, but the link is not showing up.
> 
> Is it the same one as this: http://v.ifeng.com/mil/worldwide/201612/0196cce4-d9fb-4b67-91eb-9675d8b16843.shtml


no..test flight video

wait i m posting it on a source then embedding on defencepk


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/829030014964420608
@Deino @SinoSoldier done

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## UniverseWatcher

old pic?

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## Deino

DjSmg said:


> View attachment 376330
> 
> 
> 
> old pic?




Yes ... Came out on the maiden flight.

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## Deino

At least a new model !!

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## HannibalBarca

Deino said:


> At least a new model !!
> 
> View attachment 376567


??


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> At least a new model !!
> 
> View attachment 376567


wait what..but wjhat abt the new design


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> wait what..but wjhat abt the new design




Yes I know ... it looks like a mix of V1 & V2, so is it a fan-made model or an intermediate step between V1 and the current design of V2?

Anyway, as long as no news are out, it's better than nothing.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Yes I know ... it looks like a mix of V1 & V2, so is it a fan-made model or an intermediate step between V1 and the current design of V2?
> 
> Anyway, as long as no news are out, it's better than nothing.


single piece cockpit and swept tail unlike v1 but wingtips like v1 and also horixontal stabilizers further away from


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## Deino

I found it here:
http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2360881-1-1.html

So maybe they tell more about that model.


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## WarFariX

d


Deino said:


> I found it here:
> http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2360881-1-1.html
> 
> So maybe they tell more about that model.


do u hv account in cdjby?


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> d
> 
> do u hv account in cdjby?



Not sure; ... ähh, YES. As far as I remember it was an open forum up to ??? (not sure anymore) when they requested a log in and so I made an account. However since all is in Chinese, I'm only a reading member, not a poster.


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Not sure; ... ähh, YES. As far as I remember it was an open forum up to ??? (not sure anymore) when they requested a log in and so I made an account. However since all is in Chinese, I'm only a reading member, not a poster.


i have been struggling to make an account..they ask for chinese phone number wich i dont have


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> i have been struggling to make an account..they ask for chinese phone number wich i dont have



Yes, that happened when I tried to create an account at Weibo, but when I signed in (long, long ago!) at cdjby everything went fine.

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## 3jiL

FC-31...

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## Deino

3jiL said:


> View attachment 376610
> FC-31...




Ohhh... YES please in fully size and high resolution !


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## Akasa

3jiL said:


> View attachment 376610
> FC-31...



Interesting, an image of FC-31 v2.0 (which is essentially confirmed to not have an EOTS, at least for now) along with an engraving of a landing ship.

Could this possibly mean that the PLAN is interested in the FC-31?

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## WarFariX

SinoSoldier said:


> Interesting, an image of FC-31 v2.0 (which is essentially confirmed to not have an EOTS, at least for now) along with an engraving of a landing ship.
> 
> Could this possibly mean that the PLAN is interested in the FC-31?


i i am not wrong this ship is an amphibious carrier right ? ;-)


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## WarFariX

Recently released image of FC-31v2 shows it's actual flight pic from the view of window where a PLAN Type 072 Amphibious Landing deck carrier ship is displayed . We can conclude 2 things from this pic :
-No EOTS present on the prototype presently
-Possible Future Purchase of the jet by PLAN (Chinese Navy) or chinese marines


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Recently released image of FC-31v2 shows it's actual flight pic from the view of window where a PLAN Type 072 Amphibious Landing deck carrier ship is displayed . We can conclude 2 things from this pic :
> -No EOTS present on the prototype presently
> -Possible Future Purchase of the jet by PLAN (Chinese Navy) or chinese marines




But would a FC-31 of any sort make sense for a Amphibious Landing deck carrier ?? IMO not really.


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> But would a FC-31 of any sort make sense for a Amphibious Landing deck carrier ?? IMO not really.


thats the offensive course...


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## 帅的一匹

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Recently released image of FC-31v2 shows it's actual flight pic from the view of window where a PLAN Type 072 Amphibious Landing deck carrier ship is displayed . We can conclude 2 things from this pic :
> -No EOTS present on the prototype presently
> -Possible Future Purchase of the jet by PLAN (Chinese Navy) or chinese marines


General YingZhuo once said on CCTV he strongly advocate PLAN inducting FC31, cause its take off weight is more suitable for carrier than J20. I think the possibility of PLAN inducting FC31 is very very high. Rumor said CAC is developing a single engine medium stealthy fighter, but a single engine fighter is not safe on the high sea. Unless CAC can design a medium stealthy fighter based on WS15 engine, otherwise it's not attractive enough. That again come down to engine problem, it restricts our fighter design. I hope CAC can develop a single engine fighter based on WS15 in the future. That comes the high- low company with J20.

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## WarFariX

Here..it all depends on thrust to weight ratio of this machine...however is this runway suitable (long) enoiugh?


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## Akasa

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> i i am not wrong this ship is an amphibious carrier right ? ;-)



Landing ship.

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> At least a new model !!
> 
> View attachment 376567


Its a carrier aboard version, have you noticed the PLAN ensign on side of its fuselage? It means a lot!

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Its a carrier aboard version, have you noticed the PLAN ensign on side of its fuselage? It means a lot!



To admit, I had a similar idea, the question however is. how reliable is this model ?
Is it a true model made by SAC/AVIC with the PLANAF flag as a hint or is it a fan-made-model with simply the PLANAF-flag patched on it?
Even more, how recent is it ? Is it from the time, when the PLA was still interested and as such does not match the current V2-configuration or is it a recent one showing modifications esp. for a carrier-version ?

Deino


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> To admit, I had a similar idea, the question however is. how reliable is this model ?
> Is it a true model made by SAC/AVIC with the PLANAF flag as a hint or is it a fan-made-model with simply the PLANAF-flag patched on it?
> Even more, how recent is it ? Is it from the time, when the PLA was still interested and as such does not match the current V2-configuration or is it a recent one showing modifications esp. for a carrier-version ?
> 
> Deino


All I can say is FC31 has lot of fans in PLAN, including lot of Generals. The possibility of inducting it is increasing.

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## Deino

I hope so ...


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## 帅的一匹

The possibility of PAF inducting FC31 will expand exponentially if PLAN/PLAAF induct FC31 at the same time, economy of scale will be a determined factor. We can develop FC31A for our airforce and FC31B for navy.@MastanKhan @DESERT FIGHTER @Horus @Windjammer @MarvellousThunder@PDC @Basel @Khafee

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> To admit, I had a similar idea, the question however is. how reliable is this model ?
> Is it a true model made by SAC/AVIC with the PLANAF flag as a hint or is it a fan-made-model with simply the PLANAF-flag patched on it?
> Even more, how recent is it ? Is it from the time, when the PLA was still interested and as such does not match the current V2-configuration or is it a recent one showing modifications esp. for a carrier-version ?
> 
> Deino


we can use some points :


wanglaokan said:


> The possibility of PAF inducting FC31 will expand exponentially if PLAN/PLAAF induct FC31 at the same time, economy of scale will be a determined factor. We can develop FC31A for our airforce and FC31B for navy.@MastanKhan @DESERT FIGHTER @Horus @Windjammer @MarvellousThunder@PDC @Basel @Khafee


bro tbh PAF will induct FC31 before PLAN does...write it on a paper and keep it safe..thnx me later

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## cirr

Carrier-borne FC-31

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Carrier-borne FC-31



Is this a new variant or simply a poor model? The wings and tails are incorrect, plus there is no EOTS!


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## WarFariX

cirr said:


> Carrier-borne FC-31


@Deino i have a strong feeling

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## Deino

Again ... how recent, how reliable is this model and where it displayed ??

I read that model is on display at the Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute no. 601's showroom.

Deino


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## Deino

Anyone seen ??

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2253605-1-1.html


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Anyone seen ??
> 
> http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2253605-1-1.html


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-7...lgo_pvid=3665440f-32e6-4fe3-8338-68d8333d2255

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## HannibalBarca

Enjoy


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## HRK

HannibalBarca said:


> Enjoy



in IDEX-2017 ... ???


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## Deino

Nice, but an old and IMO inaccurate model of V1-configuration.

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## HannibalBarca

HRK said:


> in IDEX-2017 ... ???


yes


Deino said:


> Nice, but an old and IMO inaccurate model of V1-configuration.



not old, it's exposed on IDEX2017...
It's an official version done by the company himself for "potential" buyers...
I think they would at least played the accuracy card...


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Nice, but an old and IMO inaccurate model of V1-configuration.


hey what do u think of it sir . :-O amazed am i..will this be carrier borne or wat?


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## Deino

HannibalBarca said:


> not old, it's exposed on IDEX2017...
> It's an official version done by the company himself for "potential" buyers...
> I think they would at least played the accuracy card...



That might be a logical assumption, but it IS simply a model showing the old configuration of V1 and even this not very accurate.



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> hey what do u think of it sir . :-O amazed am i..will this be carrier borne or wat?



No, even more I'm disappointed ! If SAC/AVIC really want to raise customer interest, then I would expect a representative model the latest configuration.

As such; I'm really sad.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> That might be a logical assumption, but it IS simply a model showing the old configuration of V1 and even this not very accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> No, even more I'm disappointed ! If SAC/AVIC really want to raise customer interest, then I would expect a representative model the latest configuration.
> 
> As such; I'm really sad.


the changes i can predict currently are that -
1 . Single piece bubble canopy
2 . Curvy inlets unlike flattened inlets of 31001
3 . No EOTS
4 . TAIL FLAPS CHOPPED FROM BENEATH



Deino said:


> That might be a logical assumption, but it IS simply a model showing the old configuration of V1 and even this not very accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> No, even more I'm disappointed ! If SAC/AVIC really want to raise customer interest, then I would expect a representative model the latest configuration.
> 
> As such; I'm really sad.


i have a strong feeling this was meant for PLAN specifically

i dont think this one is that much stealthy due to the nose design similar to thunder and the raised canopy which increases Frontal RCS


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## Deino

Sorry, but here I disagree: IMO this is plain and simple an not-very accurate model of a generic FC-31. Don't ask me why they don't show on that quite important show a new model but instead an outdated one, but I cannot believe that after years of refinements from V1 to V2 and just one flight of the improved prototype they revert nearly everything back ti some sort of V1.63 ! IMO Never.

Deino

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## Akasa

HannibalBarca said:


> I think they would at least played the accuracy card...



You'd be surprised at the sort of discrepancies that exist in these company presentations. The serial number #31001 is of a technology demonstrator, not a prototype, and the model is quite poorly-made as well.


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## Deino

Here it is again even labelled with '31001' so You really can't take this model seriously as a current iteration !

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> That might be a logical assumption, but it IS simply a model showing the old configuration of V1 and even this not very accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> No, even more I'm disappointed ! If SAC/AVIC really want to raise customer interest, then I would expect a representative model the latest configuration.
> 
> As such; I'm really sad.


Maybe they already have customers. They don't rush it. when you don't show the best you have got in hands means you are not in a hurry to sell it.

Or maybe FC31blk2 will attend PLAN competition. The current show up of FC31 BLk1 in IDEX means the advanced version will be inducted by PlAN or PLAAF, a good news per my perspective.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Maybe they already have customers. They don't rush it. when you don't show the best you have got in hands means you are not in a hurry to sell it.
> 
> Or maybe FC31blk2 will attend PLAN competition. The current show up of FC31 BLk1 in IDEX means the advanced version will be inducted by PlAN or PLAAF, a good news per my perspective.




I hope You are right !


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## Pepsi Cola

Honestly, I find this a little unacceptable, considering that IDEX is probably one of the most important military show of the year and that V2 model is already seen in other military shows. Maybe for some reason, AVIC is now only exporting the V1. Maybe it's because PLAN is getting the V2. Maybe it just that the V2 model somehow got damaged and they don't have a backup model. I do not know.


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## WarFariX

Okarus said:


> Honestly, I find this a little unacceptable, considering that IDEX is probably one of the most important military show of the year and that V2 model is already seen in other military shows. Maybe for some reason, AVIC is now only exporting the V1. Maybe it's because PLAN is getting the V2. Maybe it just that the V2 model somehow got damaged and they don't have a backup model. I do not know.


v2 model is alive..thats what i can say to u



Deino said:


> Here it is again even labelled with '31001' so You really can't take this model seriously as a current iteration !
> 
> View attachment 378613


@Deino @Beast @SinoSoldier i safely assume that the models made to showcased this year are from poor designers...u can just look at the thunder far behind which has different tail design swept so its just bad moddeling of 31001


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## 星海军事

The second flight is likely to take place soon.

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> The second flight is likely to take place soon.



Will the FC-31 v2.0 be more complete (i.e. with EOTS, paint, etc.)?


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## Beast

I agree with wanglaokan that they mostly has secure potential customer that it will be a waste of money to further promote it.


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> I agree with wanglaokan that they mostly has secure potential customer that it will be a waste of money to further promote it.


They just walk it through at IDEX by showing an old model of FC31, that says everything. China is not counting on selling weapons to make a living, we have lot of other business to take care of.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> I agree with wanglaokan that they mostly has secure potential customer that it will be a waste of money to further promote it.




But why ??? Did Lockheed Martin give up any sales and promotion efforts after it gained the first order ?


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## 帅的一匹

Maybe PLAN won't allow SAC to export the BLK2 yet. But Pakistan is an exception, we will share the advanced version to PAF.



Deino said:


> But why ??? Did Lockheed Martin give up any sales and promotion efforts after it gained the first order ?


It's not about the order, it's about the permission to export is not given. It doesn't make sense to promote something which is not available.


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## AmirPatriot

Excuse me for my ignorance (I have not been following this thread) - is there any knowledge of the FC-31's internal weapons bay capacity in terms of air-to-air missiles?


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## 帅的一匹

National security is more important than Selling fighters. Few countries China can trust wholly hearted. USA has much more allies than China does.

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## waja2000

AmirPatriot said:


> Excuse me for my ignorance (I have not been following this thread) - is there any knowledge of the FC-31's internal weapons bay capacity in terms of air-to-air missiles?



Basically internal bay can fit 6 medium range Air-To-Air missile or 4 long range Air-To-Air missile.

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## 帅的一匹

AmirPatriot said:


> Excuse me for my ignorance (I have not been following this thread) - is there any knowledge of the FC-31's internal weapons bay capacity in terms of air-to-air missiles?


Can hold six PL12.


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## AmirPatriot

@waja2000 @wanglaokan thanks... can it also hold an extra 2 Infrared missiles in side bays, making it 8 missiles?


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## 帅的一匹

AmirPatriot said:


> @waja2000 @wanglaokan thanks... can it also hold an extra 2 Infrared missiles in side bays, making it 8 missiles?


Bro, It doesn't have side bays.


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## AmirPatriot

wanglaokan said:


> Bro, It doesn't have side bays.


Wow, I'm really out of the loop aren't I 

Will it carry 2 on wingtips, like the F-35?

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## 帅的一匹

AmirPatriot said:


> Wow, I'm really out of the loop aren't I
> 
> Will it carry 2 on wingtips, like the F-35?


four under wings, and two on wing tips.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Can hold six PL12.




Are You sure ? I know models and CGs usualyl show that maximum load-out, but since the J-20's bay also can hold only four large AAMs and I don't think the FC-31's bay is larger, I'm a bit sceptical.
So far we haven't even seen the bays.

Deino

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## waja2000

Deino said:


> Are You sure ? I know models and CGs usualyl show that maximum load-out, but since the J-20's bay also can hold only four large AAMs and I don't think the FC-31's bay is larger, I'm a bit sceptical.
> So far we haven't even seen the bays.
> Deino



i think PL12 is medium AA missile, maybe future will have ER version, not sure other member。


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## Deino

waja2000 said:


> i think PL12 is medium AA missile, maybe future will have ER version, not sure other member。



I don't think so, but besides that even an ER-version does not make the weapons bay larger.


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## waja2000

Deino said:


> I don't think so, but besides that even an ER-version does not make the weapons bay larger.



what is means it can improvement from missile itself, like improve missile engine, solid-fuel，etc. PL12 have 203mm diameter vs AIM120 have 180mm diameter, still have many room for improvement.
PL12 i read many place just list as medium AA missile with range about 70-80km. new improvement version possible reach 100-120km than will be long range.


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## Deino

waja2000 said:


> what is means it can improvement from rocket itself, like improve missile engine, solid-fuel，etc.
> PL12 i read many place just list as medium AA missile with range about 70-80km. new improvement version possible reach 100-120km than will be long range.



Yes, but my point is that IMO that bay is simply not large enough to fit 6 PL-12 !


----------



## WarFariX

星海军事 said:


> The second flight is likely to take place soon.


any idea which month?


----------



## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> any idea which month?




I had a similar "sarcastic" idea since "soon" connected with the FC-31 seems to follow another time-line in comparison to CAC and the J-10/-20-programs. 

Can't wait to see it again .... 

Deino

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## Kabotar

Deino said:


> Yes, but my point is that IMO that bay is simply not large enough to fit 6 PL-12 !


Hope they're also developing advance medium range missile based on PL-15 with 160+km range.


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## Deino

Upppss ... first time something like PT-3 is mentioned !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/834319766433177600

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Upppss ... first time something like PT-3 is mentioned !
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/834319766433177600



Like the J-20 program, it's expected that the FC-31 would be an evolutionary process.


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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> Like the J-20 program, it's expected that the FC-31 would be an evolutionary process.



In geral YES, but for a program that was about a year ago nearly on the edge of being cancelled a PT-3 is a giant leap ... and IMO a clear sign that it is not only an export-project.

Deino


----------



## Kabotar

Deino said:


> Upppss ... first time something like PT-3 is mentioned !
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/834319766433177600


PT-3? That's fast [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106].


----------



## Akasa

Deino said:


> In geral YES, but for a program that was about a year ago nearly on the edge of being cancelled a PT-3 is a giant leap ... and IMO a clear sign that it is not only an export-project.
> 
> Deino



To be fair, other "export-only" projects like the MiG-35 also produced several prototypes. I agree that there is a possibility that the PLAN has adopted it, but the appearance of a 3rd prototype isn't necessarily indicative of this.

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## waja2000

Deino said:


> Yes, but my point is that IMO that bay is simply not large enough to fit 6 PL-12 !



base on diameter agree too, they need make new more slimier version of PL12.


----------



## yantong1980

SinoSoldier said:


> To be fair, other "export-only" projects like the MiG-35 also produced several prototypes. I agree that there is a possibility that the PLAN has adopted it, but the appearance of a 3rd prototype isn't necessarily indicative of this.



Yes I agree also, but with 'absence' of any information/news about China next-carrier fighter project, this could be possibility. Maybe, PLAN just waiting, take their time and keep watching FC-31 program progress until become something their looking for.


----------



## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Upppss ... first time something like PT-3 is mentioned !
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/834319766433177600


prototype 3 ? when is paris air show


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## Deino

Kabotar said:


> PT-3? That's fast [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106].





MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> prototype 3 ? when is paris air show



Guys ... I know, I'm probably one of the most impatient peoples around, but please read and calm down: it will be a model of PT-3, not PT-3 itself.

And Paris Airshow is from June 19th to June 25th 2017.


----------



## The Eagle

As we have been looking and waiting for FC-31 news and any development, I was just reading all the development w.r.t. previous and current/last available status.

While looking at recent FC-31 (31001) model displayed at Idex-2017 UAE and then thinking about FC-31 V2.0, question arises that why not the model of V2.0 at UAE. Then after, as I read here about possible PT-3 model to be displayed in Paris Arishow so, just a guess work and I can be totally wrong but, what if

FC-31 (31001) was actually temporarily representing FC-31 that soon will be disclosed as PT-3, while on other hand FC-31 V2.0 is selected for a specific customer (either China or anyone else) that is not available for export from now-on. 

Therefore, a PT-3 (previous FC-31 31001) will be displayed in Paris airshow for export rather than FC-31 2.0 model. 

FC-31 (31001) turned into PT-3.
FC-31 V2.0 is not available for any other customer now.

Just saying. (a guess work).


----------



## 帅的一匹

The Eagle said:


> As we have been looking and waiting for FC-31 news and any development, I was just reading all the development w.r.t. previous and current/last available status.
> 
> While looking at recent FC-31 (31001) model displayed at Idex-2017 UAE and then thinking about FC-31 V2.0, question arises that why not the model of V2.0 at UAE. Then after, as I read here about possible PT-3 model to be displayed in Paris Arishow so, just a guess work and I can be totally wrong but, what if
> 
> FC-31 (31001) was actually temporarily representing FC-31 that soon will be disclosed as PT-3, while on other hand FC-31 V2.0 is selected for a specific customer (either China or anyone else) that is not available for export from now-on.
> 
> Therefore, a PT-3 (previous FC-31 31001) will be displayed in Paris airshow for export rather than FC-31 2.0 model.
> 
> FC-31 (31001) turned into PT-3.
> FC-31 V2.0 is not available for any other customer now.
> 
> Just saying. (a guess work).


Will Blk2 specially designed for Pakistan? Cause I see no interests of PLAAF in it!! Who will be he only airforce China is willing to give its top notch tech to? Pakistan ! The final result will be, China induct Fc31 navy version and PAF induct airforce version. Mark my words!



The Eagle said:


> As we have been looking and waiting for FC-31 news and any development, I was just reading all the development w.r.t. previous and current/last available status.
> 
> While looking at recent FC-31 (31001) model displayed at Idex-2017 UAE and then thinking about FC-31 V2.0, question arises that why not the model of V2.0 at UAE. Then after, as I read here about possible PT-3 model to be displayed in Paris Arishow so, just a guess work and I can be totally wrong but, what if
> 
> FC-31 (31001) was actually temporarily representing FC-31 that soon will be disclosed as PT-3, while on other hand FC-31 V2.0 is selected for a specific customer (either China or anyone else) that is not available for export from now-on.
> 
> Therefore, a PT-3 (previous FC-31 31001) will be displayed in Paris airshow for export rather than FC-31 2.0 model.
> 
> FC-31 (31001) turned into PT-3.
> FC-31 V2.0 is not available for any other customer now.
> 
> Just saying. (a guess work).


Will Blk2 specially designed for Pakistan? Cause I see no interests of PLAAF in it!! Who will be he only airforce China is willing to give its top notch tech to? Pakistan ! The final result will be, China induct Fc31 navy version and PAF induct airforce version. Mark my words!

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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> Will Blk2 specially designed for Pakistan? Cause I see no interests of PLAAF in it!! Who will be he only airforce China is willing to give its top notch tech to? Pakistan ! The final result will be, China induct Fc31 navy version and PAF induct airforce version. Mark my words!
> 
> 
> Will Blk2 specially designed for Pakistan? Cause I see no interests of PLAAF in it!! Who will be he only airforce China is willing to give its top notch tech to? Pakistan ! The final result will be, China induct Fc31 navy version and PAF induct airforce version. Mark my words!


u said right


----------



## 帅的一匹

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> u said right


I just guess it based on limited info.


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## ChineseToTheBone

The only immediate exports will most definitely go to Pakistan, with how close military cooperation has become. However, this project might be in need of investors currently, so it has been slightly disappointing to see the lack of foreign interest shown for it thus far.

On a random side note, extremely old rumours from years back spoke of how the Chinese military would field a much larger fleet of J-31 than J-20, since they were assumed to be less costly per unit.

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## The SC

China is not inclined on giving ToT of high strategic assets otherwise Turkey would have bought the HQ-9, it wanted some amount of ToT that China wasn't willing to give, everything else was fine..price, performance and capabilities wise..
This is happening with the J-31 too, or we would have seen some interested parties investing in it and going for JVs.. but it is not too late, some middle eastern countries
(minus UAE that went for a JV with Russia, although for a light 5th generation, so we shouldn't count it out, since the J-31 is medium weight), might still be interested if China offers some ToT, assembly and production possibilities, but there ought to be a finished product to start with..

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## 帅的一匹

The SC said:


> China is not inclined on giving ToT of high strategic assets otherwise Turkey would have bought the HQ-9, it wanted some amount of ToT that China wasn't willing to give, everything else was fine..price, performance and capabilities wise..
> This is happening with the J-31 too, or we would have seen some interested parties investing in it and going for JVs.. but it is not too late, some middle eastern countries
> (minus UAE that went for a JV with Russia, although for a light 5th generation, so we shouldn't count it out, since the J-31 is medium weight)..might still be interested if China offers some ToT, assembly and production possibilities, but there ought to be a finished product to start with..


I think PAF had joined the FC31 design and development, because they had reaped satisfaction in JF17 deal.

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## The SC

wanglaokan said:


> I think PAG had joined the FC31 design and development, because they had reaped satisfaction in JF17 deal.


You mean PAF..

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## The Eagle

wanglaokan said:


> Will Blk2 specially designed for Pakistan? Cause I see no interests of PLAAF in it!! Who will be he only airforce China is willing to give its top notch tech to? Pakistan ! The final result will be, China induct Fc31 navy version and PAF induct airforce version. Mark my words!



I noticed a bit of a pattern, therefore, inked it in my previous post except that I did not mention the _"Customer" _intentionally as may lead to confusion while keeping in view PAF ACM words for our own "NGF" however, until & unless the reported PT-3 (model) is not shown, things may remain awaited and hidden. It will interesting to see as you said about final result. Finger crossed.

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## cnleio

。。。。。。。。。


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> The second flight is likely to take place soon.




O.k. my patience is over and my feeling tells me, that "soon" from 2 1/2 weeks ago is today now ... so come on; where is V2 ???

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> O.k. my patience is over and my feeling tells me, that "soon" from 2 1/2 weeks ago is today now ... so come on; where is V2 ???



Remember, the term "soon" with regard to the V2's maiden flight actually meant 8+ months.


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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> Remember, the term "soon" with regard to the V2's maiden flight actually meant 8+ months.


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## Akasa

According to recent rumors, the next-generation carrier-borne fighter will likely be the *J-20*, further decreasing the prospects of the FC-31 entering service or production.

http://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404084494914189575

@星海军事 Are there are any more rumors about this? I also heard that a "third prototype" might appear soon.


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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> ... I also heard that a "third prototype" might appear soon.




No, only that a model of how no. 3 will look like will be unveiled at Paris.


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## shadows888

SinoSoldier said:


> According to recent rumors, the next-generation carrier-borne fighter will likely be the *J-20*, further decreasing the prospects of the FC-31 entering service or production.
> 
> http://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404084494914189575
> 
> @星海军事 Are there are any more rumors about this? I also heard that a "third prototype" might appear soon.



J-20 aren't built for carrier operations. i think that rumor is fake. i can see FC-31 for carrier operations in 5 years when china's type-003 100k ton carrier gets launched.


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## Akasa

shadows888 said:


> J-20 aren't built for carrier operations. i think that rumor is fake. i can see FC-31 for carrier operations in 5 years when china's type-003 100k ton carrier gets launched.



Well, in all fairness, the rumors were from quite a few credible posters ("leakers", if you will), and they've been persistent for some time. Additionally, the J-20 isn't any larger than the J-15.


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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Well, in all fairness, the rumors were from quite a few credible posters ("leakers", if you will), and they've been persistent for some time. Additionally, the J-20 isn't any larger than the J-15.


If they want to induct J20 variant into carrier, it will kill SAC. I'm a strong supporter of FC31.

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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> If they want to indict J20 variant into carrier, it will kill SAC. I'm a strong supporter of FC31.



Latest rumors are saying that the final decision hasn't been made yet. The idea is that they will induct "small aircraft" onto small vessels and "large aircraft" onto large vessels, at least according to a recent article.


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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Latest rumors are saying that the final decision hasn't been made yet. The idea is that they will induct "small aircraft" onto small vessels and "large aircraft" onto large vessels, at least according to a recent article.


In order to deal with the US navy VLRASM, the carrier borne fighter must have more range.


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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> In order to deal with the US navy VLRASM, the carrier borne fighter must have more range.



I think that they might opt for a mixed J20 + FC-31 fleet. Which would make sense given the size discrepancies of their future carriers and also the variety of potential missions.


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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Latest rumors are saying that the final decision hasn't been made yet. The idea is that they will induct "small aircraft" onto small vessels and "large aircraft" onto large vessels, at least according to a recent article.


Type 001A is determined to go with J15. Then we will go for type 002, which is around 80000 tons full displacement. It is either fC31 or J20 variant. If they choose J20 rather than FC31, the WS13 series will die out without compatible fighter. Then what's the fucking purpose of developing a medium turbo fan engine???

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## kuge

wanglaokan said:


> Type 001A is determined to go with J15. Then we will go for type 002, which is around 80000 tons full displacement. It is either fC31 or J20 variant. If they choose J20 rather than FC31, the WS13 series will die out without compatible fighter. Then what's the fucking purpose of developing a medium turbo fan engine???


the popular idea planes should be built around the engine not vice-versa....you dont want to be caught for lack of medium thrust engine when the needs arise sddenly, do u?

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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> Type 001A is determined to go with J15. Then we will go for type 002, which is around 80000 tons full displacement. It is either fC31 or J20 variant. If they choose J20 rather than FC31, the WS13 series will die out without compatible fighter. Then what's the fucking purpose of developing a medium turbo fan engine???



WS-13 turbofan has applications other than 5th generation aircraft, such as the JF-17. Keep in mind that the J-15s aboard the CV-16 and CV-17 would have to be replaced as well, and if the PLAN chooses a FC-31/J-20 combo, these two carriers are likely to receive the former.


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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> WS-13 turbofan has applications other than 5th generation aircraft, such as the JF-17. Keep in mind that the J-15s aboard the CV-16 and CV-17 would have to be replaced as well, and if the PLAN chooses a FC-31/J-20 combo, these two carriers are likely to receive the former.


China won't induct 2 types of 5th gen fighter on carrier, it's hell for maintenance and waste of resource.

I know J20 is really good, but it's damn expensive. We can't afford to go all of it.


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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> China won't induct 2 types of 5th gen fighter on carrier, it's hell for maintenance and waste of resource.



Four other navies (that of Russia, the United States, France, & India) have done exactly that (induct 2+ types of fighters onboard), so it shouldn't be an issue. If anything, a hi-lo, short/long-range combination is more flexible.

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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Four other navies (that of Russia, the United States, France, & India) have done exactly that (induct 2+ types of fighters onboard), so it shouldn't be an issue. If anything, a hi-lo, short/long-range combination is more flexible.


US navy only have two type of fighter on board: one is F18(4th gen), another is F35B(5th gen). I want SAC dedicating to stealthy design on carrier borne fighters! Why damn every time CAC meddle in? FC31 is a very fine platform, it shall be given enough support for development.


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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> US navy only have two type of fighter on board: one is F18(4th gen), another is F35B(5th gen). I want SAC dedicating to stealthy design on carrier borne fighters! Why damn every time CAC meddle in? FC31 is a very fine platform, it shall be given enough support for development.



A J-20 & FC-31 combo would cause no more logistical & organizational issues than operating a F-18 & F-35 or Su-33 & MiG-29K combination. What ends up on PLAN vessels will be determined by doctrine & goal, not who gets what.


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## Akasa

Real or fake? Note the livery.


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## Deino

Hmmm... not really sure. At first sight on my handy I thought it was real, but still in primer. The panels match closely the images we already know.
However at second sight the panels are different.

So maybe a CG??


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> No, only that a model of how no. 3 will look like will be unveiled at Paris.


it seems that both you and me misunderstood Sir.Alan warnes when he said PT-3 . PT3 is actually v2 prototype 1 and PT-1 is v1 .... so what you mean to be unveiled in paris air show is model of pt3 which has been appearing in dubai , zhuhai as well as ideas shows


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> it seems that both you and me misunderstood Sir.Alan warnes when he said PT-3 . PT3 is actually v2 prototype 1 and PT-1 is v1 .... so what you mean to be unveiled in paris air show is model of pt3 which has been appearing in dubai , zhuhai as well as ideas shows



But then it would Not be anything new !?


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> But then it would Not be anything new !?


no :-(



Deino said:


> But then it would Not be anything new !?


but yes 3rd prototype is in the making


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> no :-(
> 
> but yes 3rd prototype is in the making




Any other latest, recent news !?? Is it already painted, when will be the second flight ??? ... come on SAC !?? I need my chill-pills again.


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## Pak.one

wanglaokan said:


> four under wings, and two on wing tips.


Fully operational J31 will be a beast for enemy airforce hope we will get it as soon as possible

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## Pak.one

wanglaokan said:


> Will Blk2 specially designed for Pakistan? Cause I see no interests of PLAAF in it!! Who will be he only airforce China is willing to give its top notch tech to? Pakistan ! The final result will be, China induct Fc31 navy version and PAF induct airforce version. Mark my words!
> 
> 
> Will Blk2 specially designed for Pakistan? Cause I see no interests of PLAAF in it!! Who will be he only airforce China is willing to give its top notch tech to? Pakistan ! The final result will be, China induct Fc31 navy version and PAF induct airforce version. Mark my words!


Hope so brother, waiting for J-31 in PAF colours and that will bring air superiority for PAF


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## MystryMan

Pak.one said:


> Hope so brother, waiting for J-31 in PAF colours and that will bring air superiority for PAF


J31 is multirole, not air superiority fighter.


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## Pak.one

MystryMan said:


> J31 is multirole, not air superiority fighter.


Bro i just mean that J31 will bring air superiority of PAF over the indian air force because of its stealthy qualities 

Sent from my QTab Q300 using Defence.pk mobile app


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## MystryMan

"Pak.one said:


> Bro i just mean that J31 will bring air superiority of PAF over the indian air force because of its stealthy qualities
> 
> Sent from my QTab Q300 using Defence.pk mobile app


In that sense you are right. But it will depend on how many PAF able to induct and how it employs them with other 4.5/ 4++ gen assets.


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## Pak.one

You are right brother, but first of all we have to wait for the J31 combat ready after insha Allah we hope Pakistan will induct this aircraft in good numbers to turn down indian large quantity fleet advantage


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## Ultima Thule

MystryMan said:


> J31 is multirole, not air superiority fighter.


Main mission for PAF will be air superiority, just like F-16 for PAF which multirole jet


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## MystryMan

pakistanipower said:


> Main mission for PAF will be air superiority, just like F-16 for PAF which multirole jet


I'm happy that I didn't cause you to .


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## mdmm

Shaheer ul haq said:


> I am not really sure what you are trying to say.
> 5th Gen fighter is our future need


Present Pakistani Nawaz League government is not interested to spend a single penny on Pakistani defence, like jet stealth fighters,radars,missiles etc.
Government ministers are just building their pockets.


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## 帅的一匹

Said SAC gonna enlarge FC31's fuselage , make it bigger. More range and payload. Might be they will shift the engine to WS10G.

I strongly believe FC31 will embark on our new EMALS carrier

FC31 will be a medium to heavy platform in the future. A god news for Pakistan!

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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> Said SAC gonna enlarge FC31's fuselage , make it bigger. More range and payload. Might be they will shift the engine to WS10G.
> 
> I strongly believe FC31 will embark on our new EMALS carrier
> 
> FC31 will be a medium to heavy platform in the future. A god news for Pakistan!



Can you post a direct link to the original rumor (not the other PDF member's words), if possible?


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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Can you post a direct link to the original rumor (not the other PDF member's words), if possible?


Most rumor seems to be true in the end. That's how we doing things in China.






http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2268841-1-1.html

SAC will expand the fuselage by 15%, which means the WS13E won't be suitable for FC31 anymore. SAC will have to replace it with WS10G. SAC finally compromise and live up to PLA navy's requirement.

http://m.tiexue.net/touch/thread_7931259_1.html

The combat radius of enlarged FC31 will reach 1800 KM.

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## monitor

wanglaokan said:


> Said SAC gonna enlarge FC31's fuselage , make it bigger. More range and payload. Might be they will shift the engine to WS10G.
> 
> I strongly believe FC31 will embark on our new EMALS carrier
> 
> FC31 will be a medium to heavy platform in the future. A god news for Pakistan!




Very good news but aren't they going to make project delayed. When do you think we are going to see the new version with enlarged fuselage?


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Said SAC gonna enlarge FC31's fuselage , make it bigger. More range and payload. Might be they will shift the engine to WS10G.
> 
> I strongly believe FC31 will embark on our new EMALS carrier
> 
> FC31 will be a medium to heavy platform in the future. A god news for Pakistan!


If so, FC31 really needs a foreign backer to stay alive.


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> If so, FC31 really needs a foreign to stay alive.


Might not be. But I've got to admit that SAC is insensible. I will call it learning after doing. But SAC still has a chance to make a comeback as they has abundant experience in developing Carrier borne fighter, such as J15 flying shark.



monitor said:


> Very good news but aren't they going to make project delayed. When do you think we are going to see the new version with enlarged fuselage?


 in the near future


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Most rumor seems to be true in the end. That's how we doing things in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2268841-1-1.html
> 
> SAC will expand the fuselage by 15%, which means the WS13E won't be suitable for FC31 anymore. SAC will have to replace it with WS10G. SAC finally compromise and live up to PLA navy's requirement.
> 
> http://m.tiexue.net/touch/thread_7931259_1.html
> 
> The combat radius of enlarged FC31 will reach 1800 KM.




To admit I'm a bit sceptical on this rumour: First of all WEN98 is only a CG-artist, a brilliant one, but I don't think he has insider information on this.
Even more however this "enlargement", which would be de facto a new aircraft negates all previous modifications of the FC-31 to V2: It would expand the development time only to bring that type to a level still below the J-20 and I cannot think that the PLA will develop two heavy types in parallel with this one offering inferior performances, since it would use the WS-10G and not the WS-15.

Another point of concern: this will raise the price and as such it would kill the export-chances in several potential countries, which maybe could afford a medium-weight stealth fighter but not a heavy one. And I cannot think that SAC can develop both, the FC-31V2 for export and this FC-31XXL for the PLA.

In consequence I'm indeed more than sceptical ...

Deino

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## Nefarious

wanglaokan said:


> Most rumor seems to be true in the end. That's how we doing things in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2268841-1-1.html
> 
> SAC will expand the fuselage by 15%, which means the WS13E won't be suitable for FC31 anymore. SAC will have to replace it with WS10G. SAC finally compromise and live up to PLA navy's requirement.
> 
> http://m.tiexue.net/touch/thread_7931259_1.html
> 
> The combat radius of enlarged FC31 will reach 1800 KM.



Bro, Do you know what those triangular flaps are at the top of the engine exhaust side, the F22 has them...Are they for stealth?

The J20 doesn't have them?


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> To admit I'm a bit sceptical on this rumour: First of all WEN98 is only a CG-artist, a brilliant one, but I don't think he has insider information on this.
> Even more however this "enlargement", which would be de facto a new aircraft negates all previous modifications of the FC-31 to V2: It would expand the development time only to bring that type to a level still below the J-20 and I cannot think that the PLA will develop two heavy types in parallel with this one offering inferior performances, since it would use the WS-10G and not the WS-15.
> 
> Another point of concern: this will raise the price and as such it would kill the export-chances in several potential countries, which maybe could afford a medium-weight stealth fighter but not a heavy one. And I cannot think that SAC can develop both, the FC-31V2 for export and this FC-31XXL for the PLA.
> 
> In consequence I'm indeed more than sceptical ...
> 
> Deino


No one want a short-leg fighter jet. Even PAF would like to buy J20, money is not a dtermined factor. WS10G will be a perfect fit for FC31, as the carrier borne fighter emphasize on sub-sonic performance more. FC31 only stand a chance at navy, not airforce(because J20 with WS15 is way too robust).

All we need is that FC31 can deal with F35 and F18, F22 will be left to J20.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> No one want a short-leg fighter jet. Even PAF would like to buy J20, money is not a dtermined factor. WS10G will be a perfect fit for FC31, as the carrier borne fighter emphasize on sub-sonic performance more. FC31 only stand a chance at navy, not airforce(because J20 with WS15 is way too robust).
> 
> All we need is that FC31 can deal with F35 and F18, F22 will be left to J20.




I perfectly understand the considerations, esp. since IMO the J-20 with its delta-canard layout is not the best-suited for carrier-ops (maybe only by feeling), but what's with my concerns which are equally legit?
Anyway this decision would result in a prototype of the FC-31XXXL only when ?? in at best 5 years ? ... and what's with all the export-prospects of V2 ??

I hope You forgive this note, but this would not be the "Chinese way" to makes things happen as You noted above, but the "Indian way" broadly comparable to the Tejas: You build a demonstrator (aka V1), the revise it (aka V2) and when everything's done You notice that You in fact need a bigger plane for better performance and redesign it again !?

Again, as long as this is only a rumour I take it with a rock of salt.

Deino

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> I perfectly understand the considerations, esp. since IMO the J-20 with its delta-canard layout is not the best-suited for carrier-ops (maybe only by feeling), but what's with my concerns which are equally legit?
> Anyway this decision would result in a prototype of the FC-31XXXL only when ?? in at best 5 years ? ... and what's with all the export-prospects of V2 ??
> 
> I hope You forgive this note, but this would not be the "Chinese way" to makes things happen as You noted above, but the "Indian way" broadly comparable to the Tejas: You build a demonstrator (aka V1), the revise it (aka V2) and when everything's done You notice that You in fact need a bigger plane for better performance and redesign it again !?
> 
> Again, as long as this is only a rumour I take it with a rock of salt.
> 
> Deino


That's why I said SAC is not smart enough in the first beginning due to unclear position(don't know what its potential customer need).Now they start to know.....

Learning after doing.

They had get their hands on enlargement and modification, we won't wait too long.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> ...
> They had get their hands on enlargement and modification, we won't wait too long.




But is "soon" (aka waiting for a maiden flight of V2) means sometimes 8 and more months ... so what then will it mean to wait "not long" ?? Seems as if SAC has a different perception of time ... and I'm not sure if the PLANAF would have the same.


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## 帅的一匹

The first time I saw FC31 I say it's too small.



Deino said:


> But is "soon" (aka waiting for a maiden flight of V2) means sometimes 8 and more months ... so what then will it mean to wait "not long" ?? Seems as if SAC has a different perception of time ... and I'm not sure if the PLANAF would have the same.


Unless CAC can come up with a potent solution for Navy, I think finally FC31 After enlargement will be the advisable choice for our carrier.

Why I said enlarged FC31 is a good news for Pakistan? Cause a fighter jet with 1800KM combat radius compared with 1200KM is totally different. USA new VLRASM has 1000KM range, you will be more comfortable to deal with it before it launch if you have 1800KM radius.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> The first time I saw FC31 I say it's too small.
> 
> Unless CAC can come up with a potent solution for Navy, I think finally FC31 After enlargement will be the advisable choice for our carrier.



Thanks for Your reply and in general I agree with You, but how long will it take ?? ... and even more since this enlargement would be a much more radical modification that from V1 to V2 what also needed alone from 2012 to 2016 !

And still I'm questioning this rumour at all. If You take all rumours for granted, then the J-20 could fly at Mach 3 and so on ... how reliable is this source ?

Deino


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## 帅的一匹

PLAN is aimed at USA navy. If you develop a weapon can't stand Yankee's threats, it's worthless.



Deino said:


> Thanks for Your reply and in general I agree with You, but how long will it take ?? ... and even more since this enlargement would be a much more radical modification that from V1 to V2 what also needed alone from 2012 to 2016 !
> 
> And still I'm questioning this rumour at all. If You take all rumours for granted, then the J-20 could fly at Mach 3 and so on ... how reliable is this source ?
> 
> Deino


I was quite excited when I hear the rumors FC31 will enlarge from the Shengyang Guy. It's quite convincable.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> I was quite excited when I hear the rumors FC31 will enlarge from the Shengyang Guy. It's quite convincable.




Again I do not question the idea behind this step, I'm only unsure about the source: Is it indeed a SAC-guy, who already posted previously reliable news or is it plain and simple a rumour spread by a fan?


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Again I do not question the idea behind this step, I'm only unsure about the source: Is it indeed a SAC-guy, who already posted previously reliable news or is it plain and simple a rumour spread by a fan?


It said he is an SAC guy.

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## Deino

Ok ... so time will tell !

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## MystryMan

wanglaokan said:


> PLAN is aimed at USA navy. If you develop a weapon can't stand Yankee's threats, it's worthless.
> 
> 
> I was quite excited when I hear the rumors FC31 will enlarge from the Shengyang Guy. It's quite convincable.


But V2 was already enlarged from V1. So if they further enlarging it then why not use J-20 which is already in that category?


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## 帅的一匹

MystryMan said:


> But V2 was already enlarged from V1. So if they further enlarging it then why not use J-20 which is already in that category?


I think V2 seems larger than V1, still not sure about the engine part.


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## Blue Marlin

Deino said:


> Again I do not question the idea behind this step, I'm only unsure about the source: Is it indeed a SAC-guy, who already posted previously reliable news or is it plain and simple a rumour spread by a fan?


if you read the april 2017 afm by alan warnes he confirmed the fc-31 would have a main belly bay capable of holding 6 missiles. and the model would be at the paris air show later this year

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## Taygibay

Deino said:


> I perfectly understand the considerations, esp. since IMO the J-20 with its delta-canard layout is not the best-suited for carrier-ops (maybe only by feeling),



That the J-20 is too heavy with an approach speed that is too high
is a valid reason to doubt its navalisation but not its layout because :






this quacking ⏃ can.​The J-20 is geared for long-legged interception anyway;
it can defend from the mainland. Maybe Wanglaokan can
give us its landing speed but dimensions alone would have
it restricted to flight deck without access to the hangars.
It could fit the 22m+ elevators supposed on the next carrier.

I seriously doubt naval use at least for now and "tomorrow".

Have a great day both and all, Tay.

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## 帅的一匹

Taygibay said:


> That the J-20 is too heavy with an approach speed that is too high
> is a valid reason to doubt its navalisation but not its layout because :
> 
> View attachment 386791
> 
> this quacking ⏃ can.​The J-20 is geared for long-legged interception anyway;
> it can defend from the mainland. Maybe Wanglaokan can
> give us its landing speed but dimensions alone would have
> it restricted to flight deck without access to the hangars.
> It could fit the 22m+ elevators supposed on the next carrier.
> 
> I seriously doubt naval use at least for now and "tomorrow".
> 
> Have a great day both and all, Tay.


J20 is simply too large.

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## Deino

Taygibay said:


> That the J-20 is too heavy with an approach speed that is too high
> is a valid reason to doubt its navalisation but not its layout because :
> 
> View attachment 386791
> 
> this quacking ⏃ can.​....
> Have a great day both and all, Tay.



Yes, I meant the long-coupled delta-canard configuration. Right after I posted I noticed myself ... however the Rafale has a close-coupled one.



wanglaokan said:


> J20 is simply too large.




Not really ... it is not longer than a J-15.

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Yes, I meant the long-coupled delta-canard configuration. Right after I posted I noticed myself ... however the Rafale has a close-coupled one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really ... it is not longer than a J-15.
> 
> View attachment 386794


Actually it is bulky?


----------



## monitor

FC-31 2.0 scale model in RF anechoic chamber.

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## Taygibay

Deino mate, the dimensions you quoted still
can't answer our elevator query.

For instance, we'd need the all included length
of the base : from front to rear wheels, outside
measurements. To that, you had the shortest of
the two ends past outsides of the wheels and
thus obtain the length that must fit the elevator.

It matters not which end ends up jutting out over
tha waters because you secure the plane down a
lot with slings to the elevator floor. It only matters
if the overhanging section is too heavy (prob. rear ).


The real difficulty is wing span because if 13,47 is
lesser than 14,70, once folded the J-15's wings are
seven and half meters, well within a 9-10m elevator
width. The J-20's wings are fixed.

Hiding that hinge is hard although it was done for
the F-35 C and again points to how unlikely a naval
J-20 is for now.

What's unlikely of course is not impossible.
Great day to you, Tay.

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## HannibalBarca

Taygibay said:


> Deino mate, the dimensions you quoted still
> can't answer our elevator query.
> 
> For instance, we'd need the all included length
> of the base : from front to rear wheels, outside
> measurements. To that, you had the shortest of
> the two ends past outsides of the wheels and
> thus obtain the length that must fit the elevator.
> 
> It matters not which end ends up jutting out over
> tha waters because you secure the plane down a
> lot with slings to the elevator floor. It only matters
> if the overhanging section is too heavy (prob. rear ).
> 
> 
> The real difficulty is wing span because if 13,47 is
> lesser than 14,70, once folded the J-15's wings are
> seven and half meters, well within a 9-10m elevator
> width. The J-20's wings are fixed.
> 
> Hiding that hinge is hard although it was done for
> the F-35 C and again points to how unlikely a naval
> J-20 is for now.
> 
> What's unlikely of course is not impossible.
> Great day to you, Tay.



HS... 
At first glance I tho' it was a poem/song...

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## Taygibay

HS 2...

You're not alone

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## Blue Marlin

HannibalBarca said:


> HS...
> At first glance I tho' it was a poem/song...



@Taygibay you need to start writing poetry people are being disappointed here.

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## Deino

Huu  still no news ? No second flight ? No new images ???

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Huu  still no news ? No second flight ? No new images ???


Rumor said Saudi had invested in FC31....maybe we are looking to a robust V3.

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## Blue Marlin

Deino said:


> Huu  still no news ? No second flight ? No new images ???


here's a image just for you


Spoiler: Top Secret


----------



## WarFariX

Blue Marlin said:


> here's a image just for you
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Top Secret


hahaha



Deino said:


> Huu  still no news ? No second flight ? No new images ???


i saw ur notification and thpought at last something to hear about j31 but it seems we both were on same path :-(

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## Abdul_Jalil

A awesome jet for next era.


----------



## Akasa

Deino said:


> Huu  still no news ? No second flight ? No new images ???



The rumors around FC-31 3.0 are that (1) its wings would be modified for greater aerodynamic efficiency, (2) installation of more electronics unseen on previous models would occur, (3) domestic engines would be installed, and (4) it would possibly be enlarged (for naval purposes?).

If the 3.0 started construction in 2017, it would be at least a year before we can see it fly.

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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> The rumors around FC-31 3.0 are that (1) its wings would be modified for greater aerodynamic efficiency, (2) installation of more electronics unseen on previous models would occur, (3) domestic engines would be installed, and (4) it would possibly be enlarged (for naval purposes?).
> 
> If the 3.0 started construction in 2017, it would be at least a year before we can see it fly.


As long as Saudi invest it, the Fc31 will be a successful project in the near future.

All it need is investment.


----------



## Mangus Ortus Novem

wanglaokan said:


> As long as Saudi invest it, the Fc31 will be a successful project in the near future.
> 
> All it need is investment.





There wouldn't be talk of prototype 3.0 if there wasn't a lifeline for this project.


Saudis might be in already...even if they might not go for the fighter itself...but just to keep Iran out of the game. Besides, SA is making inroads to NE Asia in particular to China as allround strategic parnter. 

Just look at the volume of the deals made public...what is not made public is most interesting as always.

Should the above scenario materialise..then PAF will be in a priviledge position to go for Chinease 5th generation fighters...yes, more than one...let us not forget about CAC's post J20 projects.

However, wisdoms is not speculate too much and let time unfold mysteries.

J31 is here to stay, regardless!

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## 帅的一匹

Sinopakfriend said:


> There wouldn't be talk of prototype 3.0 if there wasn't a lifeline for this project.
> 
> 
> Saudis might be in already...even if they might not go for the fighter itself...but just to keep Iran out of the game. Besides, SA is making inroads to NE Asia in particular to China as allround strategic parnter.
> 
> Just look at the volume of the deals made public...what is not made public is most interesting as always.
> 
> Should the above scenario materialise..then PAF will be in a priviledge position to go for Chinease 5th generation fighters...yes, more than one...let us not forget about CAC's post J20 projects.
> 
> However, wisdoms is not speculate too much and let time unfold mysteries.
> 
> J31 is here to stay, regardless!


If Saudi invest in FC31, PAF is gonna get it off the shelf at very discount price. China, Pakistan and Saudi, lot of thing is going under the table.

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## grey boy 2

FC-31, our next 5th gen fighter jet for our aircraft carrier? i personal believed its not just rumors coming out from nothing, take note who's on the message board and whom he has been tagging




http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2381214-1-1.html

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> FC-31, our next 5th gen fighter jet for our aircraft carrier? i personal believed its not just rumors coming out from nothing, take note who's on the message board and whom he has been tagging
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2381214-1-1.html



I thought he was simply a CGI artist. Does he have access to "inside information"?


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

I see J-31 is more likely a political weapon to counter US for pushing an arm race in Asia or elsewhere, China can sell it to American's foes as US sell to Japan, Korea and possible India. Maybe Americans claim that J-31 is not as effective as F-35 but that's remain to be seen, there is only China & US for now to offer to Stealth fighters as export so those who can't get F-35 will have a choice to consider J-31 , China will certainly able to capture a big chunk of market in the future.

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## Makarena

yeah,the americans also claimed that chinese drones aren't as effective as the yanks' but look at the sales numbers

so who cares what the snob think

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## ChineseToTheBone

Hopefully the current engines will be powerful enough to allow for take-off via ski-jump with a relatively full load. This will not be an issue once catapults become ready on new aircraft carriers of course.

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## 帅的一匹

ChineseToTheBone said:


> Hopefully the current engines will be powerful enough to allow for take-off via ski-jump with a relatively full load. This will not be an issue once catapults become ready on new aircraft carriers of course.


FC31 v3 is designed for Catobar carriers, type 002 onward. No need to worry, no matter it's catapult it EMALS. It's a weapon system prepared for the future.

It's a perfect chance to develop a highly capable medium thrust engine for FC31.

I drown my face in the sunshine, others can't see my ambition when I buckle down. kudos to FC31!

The first time General Ying Zhuo said on CCTV4 today focus that he prefer J31 on board, I know J31 had been inclined to be chosen for navy. I say great choice.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

ChineseToTheBone said:


> Hopefully the current engines will be powerful enough to allow for take-off via ski-jump with a relatively full load. This will not be an issue once catapults become ready on new aircraft carriers of course.



I think China should not take a interim approach as making J-31 for ski-jump and later make another catapult version, better save our money to make the best and final one.

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## 帅的一匹

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I think China should not take a interim approach as making J-31 for ski-jump and later make another catapult version, better save our money to make the best and final one.


Can't agree any more

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## cirr

FC-31 1.0？2.0？
















Pics taken today（27.04.2017）

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## Deino

Clearly V2 again, but still not painted !


----------



## Akasa

cirr said:


> FC-31 1.0？2.0？
> 
> View attachment 393365
> 
> 
> View attachment 393366
> 
> 
> View attachment 393367
> 
> 
> Pics taken today（27.04.2017）



Any idea when the 3.0 prototype might appear?


----------



## WarFariX

SinoSoldier said:


> Any idea when the 3.0 prototype might appear?


maybe next zhuhai


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

cirr said:


> FC-31 1.0？2.0？
> 
> View attachment 393365
> 
> 
> View attachment 393366
> 
> 
> View attachment 393367
> 
> 
> Pics taken today（27.04.2017）



is this new J-31 still use the smoky engines?


----------



## 帅的一匹

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> is this new J-31 still use the smoky engines?


Maybe WS13b


----------



## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

wanglaokan said:


> Maybe WS13b



Did we solve all the engine problem or if is still a prototype?


----------



## Beast

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Did we solve all the engine problem or if is still a prototype?


All problem very likely solved. Using a prototype on a prototype airframe is an ultimate risk. More likely a reliable engine used on a prototype airframe.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Beast said:


> All problem very likely solved. Using a prototype on a prototype airframe is an ultimate risk. More likely a reliable engine used on a prototype airframe.



I do hope that China WS-13 and WS15 are ready for J-31 and J-20, so we will not depend any more of outside source. China should invest more $$$$ to make engine as reliable and durable (10000 hours) as Western counterpart.


----------



## cloyce

I have a question con J-31.
Does it have an short range AAM weapon bay? How does it handle missiles such as PL-10?


----------



## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> Any idea when the 3.0 prototype might appear?



May?

Ok, they probably won't make it so I give them until June.


----------



## ChineseToTheBone

cirr said:


> FC-31 1.0？2.0？


I initially thought you were joking by posting this picture when I saw how small that plane was before scrolling down and finding the larger enhanced images. lol


----------



## Akasa

cirr said:


> May?
> 
> Ok, they probably won't make it so I give them until June.



Any idea if 3.0 is the enlarged (possibly naval) variant? If it is indeed this fast, it could signal that the PLAN has funded the program.

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## 帅的一匹

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Did we solve all the engine problem or if is still a prototype?


Its been under test on JF17 for long long long time. We'd expected its debut since years back. Very exciting moment. !



cirr said:


> FC-31 1.0？2.0？
> 
> View attachment 393365
> 
> 
> View attachment 393366
> 
> 
> View attachment 393367
> 
> 
> Pics taken today（27.04.2017）


Looks like a slimmer F35A.



SinoSoldier said:


> Any idea if 3.0 is the enlarged (possibly naval) variant? If it is indeed this fast, it could signal that the PLAN has funded the program.


Bingo, you hit the point.


----------



## Deino

cirr said:


> May?
> 
> Ok, they probably won't make it so I give them until June.




You are joking !?? 

They barely managed to fly this one the second time within four months and You are expecting already a third one within the next two ? 

Deino


----------



## WarFariX

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/857940879302041600Check the link for video
J-31v2 video made while it was landing

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## Deino

Finally some progress .... come on ! Show us more.

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## terranMarine

Deino said:


> You are joking !??
> 
> They barely managed to fly this one the second time within four months and You are expecting already a third one within the next two ?
> 
> Deino



China speed, what else?


----------



## Muhammad Omar

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> View attachment 393553
> View attachment 393554
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/857940879302041600Check the link for video
> J-31v2 video made while it was landing


----------



## cirr

Deino said:


> Finally some progress .... come on ! Show us more.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

cirr said:


>



Since when did the Cockpit glass is opening sideways???
It was Vertically before...


----------



## Meejee

Muhammad Omar said:


> Since when did the Cockpit glass is opening sideways???
> It was Vertically before...


That seems to be the L-15


----------



## Meejee

cirr said:


>


I mean this seems to be the L-15


----------



## 帅的一匹

Muhammad Omar said:


> Since when did the Cockpit glass is opening sideways???
> It was Vertically before...


I think it's not FC31 on the picture, maybe L15?


----------



## Deino

Yes ... As in The trainer thread posted The L-15B.

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## samsara

wanglaokan said:


> FC31 v3 is designed for Catobar carriers, type 002 onward. No need to worry, no matter it's catapult it EMALS. It's a weapon system prepared for the future.
> 
> It's a perfect chance to develop a highly capable medium thrust engine for FC31.
> 
> I drown my face in the sunshine, others can't see my ambition when I buckle down. kudos to FC31!
> 
> The first time General Ying Zhuo said on CCTV4 today focus that he prefer J31 on board, I know J31 had been inclined to be chosen for navy. I say great choice.


I know... because it's your 家乡 so now must feel very happy 



Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I do hope that China WS-13 and WS15 are ready for J-31 and J-20, so we will not depend any more of outside source. China should invest more $$$$ to make engine as reliable and durable (10000 hours) as Western counterpart.


ALREADY DONE! One just needs to have more patience as well as FAITH  I feel quite funny if I recall the earlier posts by some posters showing off their persistent & pervasive, unrefrained disbeliefs in this thread to the pestering extent that the FC-31 will ever see light for China's own domestic uses... and how quickly they have changed and updated their stances after v2.0 flight... just rolling back for some quick fun  chameleon style

Do you forget about the *Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC)*, which is focusing on aeroengine and related technology development, established on August 28, 2016. This mega corp consists of 46 affiliate companies, including 22 engine companies, several institutes, 3 aeroengine-repairing factories and some other small companies, with the majority of the affiliate companies having been split from Aviation Industry Corporation of China.

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## ChineseToTheBone

Deino said:


> Yes ... As in The trainer thread posted The L-15B.


So it was the other plane flying above in that video?


----------



## WarFariX

cirr said:


>


What is this? this is no fc31


----------



## WarFariX

In that landing video of FC-31 , the second aircraft was J-11D . It is confirmed

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## WarFariX

.


----------



## WarFariX

check this out....J-11D is alive...FC-31 and J-11D both conducted there flights today

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## WarFariX

@Deino @wanglaokan

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## Deino

To admit even if I would love to see it confirmed this blurred few-second clip confirms nothing.... From that sequence you can barely say its a Flanker.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> To admit even if I would love to see it confirmed this blurred few-second clip confirms nothing.... From that sequence you can barely say its a Flanker.


i think he means that j31 and j11d flew together today. he is not quoting video


----------



## Deino

Ok


----------



## grey boy 2



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## 帅的一匹

grey boy 2 said:


>


The fuselage seems beefy than V1



MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> View attachment 393603
> check this out....J-11D is alive...FC-31 and J-11D both conducted there flights today


Once China start up a new fighter jet programme, it won't easily die off in the middle of development. J11d is air superiority fighter, PLAAF has a huge demand in it.

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## 帅的一匹

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> View attachment 393603
> check this out....J-11D is alive...FC-31 and J-11D both conducted there flights today


https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170428V09TWD00

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## samsara

中国歼31战机到底发生了什么？美国给出了一令人意外的答案 腾讯视频 

_What happened to the China's J-31 jet fighter eventually?... __(Uploaded 2017.04.27)
_

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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> The fuselage seems beefy than V1
> 
> 
> Once China start up a new fighter jet programme, it won't easily die off in the middle of development. J11d is air superiority fighter, PLAAF has a huge demand in it.


i do have a feeling that SAC will take its time , lets say 1 or 2 more years , make j11d deadly and apply everything experienced on su35 to j11d , and wont release until TVC isnt applied

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## XDescendantX

grey boy 2 said:


>



The first pic made my balls drop. The second pic made my voice deeper.

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## ChineseToTheBone

wanglaokan said:


> https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20170428V09TWD00


This video seems to be of higher quality. Can the source video be found anywhere?


----------



## 帅的一匹

Some said the engine is WS13E, can we confirm it?



ChineseToTheBone said:


> This video seems to be of higher quality. Can the source video be found anywhere?


Dun know bro

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## cirr

*China's J-31 stealth fighter gets an improved prototype—and a potential future on a carrier*

More government funding may be on the way.

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 8 hours ago
J-31 V2

The J-31 fighter second prototype has been increasing test flights in April 2017, with rumors of more government funding and a third prototype on the way.

A.Man at Sinodefence Forum

The improved J-31 stealth fighter prototype has been ramping up its test flights in April 2017, adding fuel to speculation that it will become the stealth fighter for Chinese aircraft carriers.






A New Bird

The new J-31 prototype (the one in lighter gray paint) is expected to be larger, have a nose-mounted infrared search and tracking sensor, and stealthy features like clipped horizontal and vertical stabilizers.

Lovely Swift at mil.qq.com

Back in October 2012, China became the second country in the world (after the United States) to have multiple fifth-generation stealth programs, as the first FC-31/J-31 stealth fighter (FC-31 is the export designation) made its maiden flight. Built by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC), the twin-engine J-31 is roughly the same size as the American F-35, with a range of 775 miles, a maximum takeoff weight of 28 tons, and a Mach 1.8 top speed. If it enters Chinese service, it would replace single-engine J-10s as a medium fighter, and possibly become a stealth fighter on China's aircraft carriers.





Long Wait

The first prototype/tech demonstrator first flew in 2012. The second prototype's upgrades—stealthier wings, IRST sensor and a single piece canopy—first shown at the Zhuhai 2014 Airshow, but the aircraft had to wait until December 2016 to fly.

Blitzo at Sinodefence.com

Initially, there have been substantial doubts about the viability of the J-31 program. The first prototype did not fly with advanced avionics like an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and stealth features like swept vertical stabilizers, suggesting its role to be a proof of concept for testing SAC's stealth technology, and hopefully attract buyers. More tellingly, while SAC pitched the J-31 as an export fifth generation fighter at domestic and international air shows, neither the PLAAF nor foreign buyers showed firm interest in the project, leaving its viability uncertain.





No Smoke

Unlike the first J031, "31001", which flew with smoky RD-93/WS-13 engines, the second prototype is flying with cleaner burning, likely more fuel-efficient engines.

A.Man at Sinodefence Forum

This uncertainty held until the second, improved prototype first flew on December 26, 2016. The new J-31 prototype is three tons heavier and about 20 inches longer than the original technology demonstrator; it also had key improvements like an IRST sensor, stealthier wings, cleaner burning engines, and an improved radar. In addition to avionics and datalinks that enable sensor fusion, SAC officials state that the production J-31s (which could appear soon as 2019) could have supercruise capability, giving them a leg up over current F-35 fighters. Its WS-13 engines would be replaced by domestic WS-13E or WS-17 turbofan engines to give it that advantage in speed. The combination of the J-31's high speed performance, and suggested payload of 6 PL-12 or 4 PL-21 long range air to air missiles suggests that the J-31 has been optimized as an air superiority fighter, though it can be fitted with a wide array of Chinese precision guided munitions like the LS smart bombs.





Gyrfalcon

The Shenyang "Gyrfalcon" J-31 stealth fighter, China's second stealth fighter program, is speculated to have a possible carrier-capable configuration, with folding wings and reinforced landing gear.

O+Nil

*There's been talk on Chinese Internet messaging boards suggesting that SAC has recently won government funding for a J-31 carrier version, which could be larger than the initial prototypes (the carrier capable F-35C is also larger than the basic F-35A variant), in order to increase range, payload, and structural strength for the stress of carrier flight operations. SAC also plans to unveil a model of the third prototype of the J-31 at the 2017 Paris Air Show, possibly aimed at Middle Eastern buyers unable to purchase the politically sensitive F-35.*

http://www.popsci.com/j-31-stealth-fighter-improved-prototype

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## beijingwalker

*China's J-31 stealth fighter gets an improved prototype—and a potential future on a carrier*
More government funding may be on the way.

By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 10 hours ago
http://www.popsci.com/j-31-stealth-fighter-improved-prototype

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## Ultima Thule

beijingwalker said:


> *China's J-31 stealth fighter gets an improved prototype—and a potential future on a carrier*
> More government funding may be on the way.
> 
> By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 10 hours ago
> http://www.popsci.com/j-31-stealth-fighter-improved-prototype


Already posted in the thread of FC-31 news and discussion by @cirr sir, @Deino please delete this thread, thank you

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## 帅的一匹

Navy should have invested in it early, its a pefect fit for our new carrier.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> *China's J-31 stealth fighter gets an improved prototype—and a potential future on a carrier*
> 
> More government funding may be on the way.
> 
> By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer 8 hours ago
> J-31 V2
> 
> The J-31 fighter second prototype has been increasing test flights in April 2017, with rumors of more government funding and a third prototype on the way.
> 
> A.Man at Sinodefence Forum
> 
> The improved J-31 stealth fighter prototype has been ramping up its test flights in April 2017, adding fuel to speculation that it will become the stealth fighter for Chinese aircraft carriers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A New Bird
> 
> The new J-31 prototype (the one in lighter gray paint) is expected to be larger, have a nose-mounted infrared search and tracking sensor, and stealthy features like clipped horizontal and vertical stabilizers.
> 
> Lovely Swift at mil.qq.com
> 
> Back in October 2012, China became the second country in the world (after the United States) to have multiple fifth-generation stealth programs, as the first FC-31/J-31 stealth fighter (FC-31 is the export designation) made its maiden flight. Built by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC), the twin-engine J-31 is roughly the same size as the American F-35, with a range of 775 miles, a maximum takeoff weight of 28 tons, and a Mach 1.8 top speed. If it enters Chinese service, it would replace single-engine J-10s as a medium fighter, and possibly become a stealth fighter on China's aircraft carriers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Long Wait
> 
> The first prototype/tech demonstrator first flew in 2012. The second prototype's upgrades—stealthier wings, IRST sensor and a single piece canopy—first shown at the Zhuhai 2014 Airshow, but the aircraft had to wait until December 2016 to fly.
> 
> Blitzo at Sinodefence.com
> 
> Initially, there have been substantial doubts about the viability of the J-31 program. The first prototype did not fly with advanced avionics like an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and stealth features like swept vertical stabilizers, suggesting its role to be a proof of concept for testing SAC's stealth technology, and hopefully attract buyers. More tellingly, while SAC pitched the J-31 as an export fifth generation fighter at domestic and international air shows, neither the PLAAF nor foreign buyers showed firm interest in the project, leaving its viability uncertain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Smoke
> 
> Unlike the first J031, "31001", which flew with smoky RD-93/WS-13 engines, the second prototype is flying with cleaner burning, likely more fuel-efficient engines.
> 
> A.Man at Sinodefence Forum
> 
> This uncertainty held until the second, improved prototype first flew on December 26, 2016. The new J-31 prototype is three tons heavier and about 20 inches longer than the original technology demonstrator; it also had key improvements like an IRST sensor, stealthier wings, cleaner burning engines, and an improved radar. In addition to avionics and datalinks that enable sensor fusion, SAC officials state that the production J-31s (which could appear soon as 2019) could have supercruise capability, giving them a leg up over current F-35 fighters. Its WS-13 engines would be replaced by domestic WS-13E or WS-17 turbofan engines to give it that advantage in speed. The combination of the J-31's high speed performance, and suggested payload of 6 PL-12 or 4 PL-21 long range air to air missiles suggests that the J-31 has been optimized as an air superiority fighter, though it can be fitted with a wide array of Chinese precision guided munitions like the LS smart bombs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gyrfalcon
> 
> The Shenyang "Gyrfalcon" J-31 stealth fighter, China's second stealth fighter program, is speculated to have a possible carrier-capable configuration, with folding wings and reinforced landing gear.
> 
> O+Nil
> 
> *There's been talk on Chinese Internet messaging boards suggesting that SAC has recently won government funding for a J-31 carrier version, which could be larger than the initial prototypes (the carrier capable F-35C is also larger than the basic F-35A variant), in order to increase range, payload, and structural strength for the stress of carrier flight operations. SAC also plans to unveil a model of the third prototype of the J-31 at the 2017 Paris Air Show, possibly aimed at Middle Eastern buyers unable to purchase the politically sensitive F-35.*
> 
> http://www.popsci.com/j-31-stealth-fighter-improved-prototype



Good article, as always (kudos to Skywatcher), but there are only rumors that funding was given. There is no concrete evidence that the FC-31 has been chosen, and in fact a lot of military insiders are saying that the final decision won't be made (between FC-31 and J-20) until the end of 2017.


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## samsara

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> I see J-31 is more likely a political weapon to counter US for pushing an arm race in Asia or elsewhere, China can sell it to American's foes as US sell to Japan, Korea and possible India. Maybe Americans claim that J-31 is not as effective as F-35 but that's remain to be seen, there is only China & US for now to offer to Stealth fighters as export so those who can't get F-35 will have a choice to consider J-31 , China will certainly able to capture a big chunk of market in the future.





Makarena said:


> yeah,the americans also claimed that chinese drones aren't as effective as the yanks' but look at the sales numbers
> so who cares what the snob think


And anyone please tells, WHERE and WHEN any NATO military expert or its mainstream media ever admits that any China-made weapon is anything excellent straightforward WITHOUT any caveat or sour grapes note. Just read closely, in any time they will put some disparaging enclosure to belittle its value, however subtle it is... yet a trained reader will surely spot it

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## onebyone

brian wang | May 2, 2017 | 





An improved J-31 stealth fighter prototype has increased test flights in April 2017. This stealth fighter could be used for Chinese aircraft carriers. China now has a refurbished Ukrainian aircraft carrier and a domestically produced aircraft carrier. Both carriers use older jump ramp technology instead powered launching systems.

The twin-engine J-31 is roughly the same size as the American F-35, with a range of 775 miles, a maximum takeoff weight of 28 tons, and a Mach 1.8 top speed.

The improved prototype first flew on December 26, 2016. The new J-31 prototype is three tons heavier and about 20 inches longer than the original technology demonstrator.

Key improvements are
* IRST sensor
* stealthier wings
* cleaner burning engines
* improved radar.

In addition to avionics and datalinks that enable sensor fusion, SAC officials state that the production J-31s (which could appear soon as 2019) could have supercruise capability, giving them a leg up over current F-35 fighters. Its WS-13 engines would be replaced by domestic WS-13E or WS-17 turbofan engines to give it that advantage in speed. The combination of the J-31’s high speed performance, and suggested payload of 6 PL-12 or 4 PL-21 long range air to air missiles suggests that the J-31 has been optimized as an air superiority fighter, though it can be fitted with a wide array of Chinese precision guided munitions like the LS smart bombs.











_The new J-31 prototype (the one in lighter gray paint) is expected to be larger, have a nose-mounted infrared search and tracking sensor, and stealthy features like clipped horizontal and vertical stabilizers.
Lovely Swift at mil.qq.com_

According to a report, in 2012 China developed FWS-13 on the basis of Russian RD-93 to increase its thrust with augmentation to about 8,500 kg. The engine was successfully tested on a J-31, but the thrust is still not enough.

On April 22, 2016, Liyang’s holding company announced that it is investing 961 million yuan (US$171 million) in Liyang to build a production line of third-generation medium thrust aircraft engines including WS-13E with reduced weight and increased augmented thrust.

It says that the WS-13E weight will be reduced from 1,135 kg to 1,050 kg but its maximum augmented thrust will be increased from about 8,700 kg to more than 9,000 kg to raise its thrust-to-weight ratio to 8.8.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/...-with-better-engines-stealth-and-sensors.html

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## Akasa

Is there substantiative evidence that the FC-31 has indeed received PLAN support (and funding), or is this mostly rumored? The current belief is that the J-20 vs FC-31 competition won't end until 2017 is over.

@星海军事


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## shadows888

SinoSoldier said:


> Is there substantiative evidence that the FC-31 has indeed received PLAN support (and funding), or is this mostly rumored? The current belief is that the J-20 vs FC-31 competition won't end until 2017 is over.
> 
> @星海军事



Pretty sure the PLAAF already picked the J-20. the FC-31 may be rumor plane for the Type 003 carrier? no inside sources, it's hard to tell, and the PLA are very secretive.


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## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> Is there substantiative evidence that the FC-31 has indeed received PLAN support (and funding), or is this mostly rumored? The current belief is that the J-20 vs FC-31 competition won't end until 2017 is over.
> 
> @星海军事


there is no so-called J20 vs. FC-31 competition````its BS, best I can put```



shadows888 said:


> Pretty sure the PLAAF already picked the J-20. the FC-31 may be rumor plane for the Type 003 carrier? no inside sources, it's hard to tell, and the PLA are very secretive.


the new J-15 and new 5th gen stealth fighter for PLAN will come out in few years time```J-20 has its own purpose and business, it belongs to PLAAF```````


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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> there is no so-called J20 vs. DX-31 competition````its BS, best I can put```
> 
> 
> the new J-15 and new 5th gen stealth fighter for PLAN will come out in few years time```J-20 has its own purpose and business, it belongs to PLAAF```````



And is this based on "insider information" or just your own conjecture?

There is definitely a PLAN J-20 vs FC-31 competition, as per many so-called "big shrimps".


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## terranMarine

SinoSoldier said:


> And is this based on "insider information" or just your own conjecture?
> 
> There is definitely a PLAN J-20 vs FC-31 competition, as per many so-called "big shrimps".



PLAN wants J-20 on an AC? J-20 is too big how on earth is there a J-20 vs FC-31 competition?


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## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> And is this based on "insider information" or just your own conjecture?
> 
> There is definitely a PLAN J-20 vs FC-31 competition, as per many so-called "big shrimps".


rubbish, sheer rubbish`````'big shrimps' swim in the pond (on forums), and those people working in the circle do not 'leak' on forums````even they 'leak' at least with a bit of common sense``````


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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> rubbish, sheer rubbish`````'big shrimps' swim in the pond (on forums), and those people working in the circle do not 'leak' on forums````even they 'leak' at least with a bit of common sense``````



But you, of all, apparently work "in the circle"?



terranMarine said:


> PLAN wants J-20 on an AC? J-20 is too big how on earth is there a J-20 vs FC-31 competition?



J-20 is no bigger than a J-15.


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## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> But you, of all, apparently work "in the circle"?


no, I am not```````but



terranMarine said:


> PLAN wants J-20 on an AC? J-20 is too big how on earth is there a J-20 vs FC-31 competition?


its not about the size


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## samsara

*China improves J-31 stealth fighter with better engines, stealth and sensors*

By Brian Wang - NextBigFuture | May 2, 2017







An improved J-31 stealth fighter prototype has increased test flights in April 2017. This stealth fighter could be used for Chinese aircraft carriers. China now has a refurbished Ukrainian aircraft carrier and a domestically produced aircraft carrier. Both carriers use older jump ramp technology instead powered launching systems.

The twin-engine J-31 is roughly the same size as the American F-35, with a range of 775 miles (1,247 kilometers), a maximum takeoff weight of 28 tons, and a Mach 1.8 top speed.

The improved prototype first flew on December 26, 2016. The new J-31 prototype is three tons heavier and about 20 inches (0.5 meter) longer than the original technology demonstrator.

Key improvements are
* IRST sensor
* stealthier wings
* cleaner burning engines
* improved radar.

In addition to avionics and datalinks that enable sensor fusion, SAC officials state that the production J-31s (which could appear soon as 2019) could have supercruise capability, giving them a leg up over current F-35 fighters. Its WS-13 engines would be replaced by domestic WS-13E or WS-17 turbofan engines to give it that advantage in speed. The combination of the J-31’s high speed performance, and suggested payload of 6 PL-12 or 4 PL-21 long range air to air missiles suggests that the J-31 has been optimized as an air superiority fighter, though it can be fitted with a wide array of Chinese precision guided munitions like the LS smart bombs.





_The new J-31 prototype (the one in lighter gray paint) is expected to be larger, have a nose-mounted infrared search and tracking sensor, and stealthy features like clipped horizontal and vertical stabilizers. Lovely Swift at mil.qq.com_

According to a report, in 2012 China developed FWS-13 on the basis of Russian RD-93 to increase its thrust with augmentation to about 8,500 kg. The engine was successfully tested on a J-31, but the thrust is still not enough.

_On April 22, 2016, Liyang’s holding company announced that it is investing 961 million yuan (US$171 million) in Liyang to build a production line of third-generation medium thrust aircraft engines including WS-13E with reduced weight and increased augmented thrust.

It says that the WS-13E weight will be reduced from 1,135 kg to 1,050 kg but its maximum augmented thrust will be increased from about 8,700 kg to more than 9,000 kg to raise its *thrust-to-weight ratio to 8.8*.
_
*@Asok*

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## 帅的一匹

Seems the WS13E is going to mass production.

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## grey boy 2

Seems like the FC-31 2. had a new smokeless engine installed, not RD93 anymore?
3 tons added, 0.5m longer in length, new radar, IRST, Mission systems and sensor fusion and data linking etc, please fee free to correct my poor translation
Oh the most important of all, getting government funding to this project

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## WarFariX

Although , PDF has seen me supporting and loving J-31 but tbh , J-31 is shit near J-20 . Engine is the reason and also it is less stealthy


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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Seems like the FC-31 2. had a new smokeless engine installed, not RD93 anymore?
> 3 tons added, 0.5m longer in length, new radar, IRST, Mission systems and sensor fusion and data linking etc, please fee free to correct my poor translation
> Oh the most important of all, getting government funding to this project



Was it explicitly mentioned in the pictured post that the FC-31 has received government funding?


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## Nefarious

Well, they're still investing in the jet and making all these changes. There's funding and push definately coming from somewhere.


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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Seems like the FC-31 2. had a new smokeless engine installed, not RD93 anymore?
> 3 tons added, 0.5m longer in length, new radar, IRST, Mission systems and sensor fusion and data linking etc, please fee free to correct my poor translation



But that's not the current V2 prototype since it still lacks the IRST ... by the way, 3 tons of weight added is IMO - even with WS-13 (??) - not the best !

By the way ... I want *MOOOOAAAR* images, *BETTER* images ... and I want them *NOW* !

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## terranMarine

Deino said:


> But that's not the current V2 prototype since it still lacks the IRST ... by the way, 3 tons of weight added is IMO - even with WS-13 (??) - not the best !
> 
> By the way ... I want *MOOOOAAAR* images, *BETTER* images ... and I want them *NOW* !



Rock the music


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## BHarwana

Just heard that China has improved the engine on FC-31 can any one confirm the story?


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## Deino

terranMarine said:


> Rock the music




Yes I know ...


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## Deino

*@onebyone Do we really need another thread for a post that has already been posted ??? *


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## Abdul salam farooqi

At the time of landing aircraft's don't omit smoke

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> But that's not the current V2 prototype since it still lacks the IRST ... by the way, 3 tons of weight added is IMO - even with WS-13 (??) - not the best !
> 
> By the way ... I want *MOOOOAAAR* images, *BETTER* images ... and I want them *NOW* !


You can go to SAC and station around there and taking pictures 



Abdul salam farooqi said:


> At the time of landing aircraft's don't omit smoke


RD93 is a disaster

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## ChineseToTheBone

How do people know such exact length and weight increases by the way? Were those numbers displayed at previous airshows where the model of this aircraft was brought to?


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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> But that's not the current V2 prototype since it still lacks the IRST ... by the way, 3 tons of weight added is IMO - even with WS-13 (??) - not the best !
> 
> By the way ... I want *MOOOOAAAR* images, *BETTER* images ... and I want them *NOW* !



Oh my bad, lost in translation, supposed to be the "NEW Chinese military version with all the above mentioned changes compared to the original prototypes 
@新浪军事
【美媒称2.0版FC31增重3吨 中国军方定制款已获拨款】美大众科学网站称，中国新版FC31比原先验证机增重3吨、增长0.5米，新配IRST光电传感器、隐形垂尾、无烟充分燃烧发动机和改进型雷达，装备了能实现传感器融合的航电设备和数据链路。文章还称，FC31的军方定制版已赢得政府拨款。_O_美:FC31战机已获中国军方拨款

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## cirr

<embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" wmode="transparent" quality="high" height="480" width="480" src="http://video.weibo.com/player/1034:d5c3f0c2ee367fb66477aa6e24c338a4/v.swf"/>

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## samsara

Shenyang J-31 (FC-31) V2.0 Prototype Test Flight 20170428














For video, look at the one post above this one as posted by @cirr - Post #2943

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## simple Brain

samsara said:


> Shenyang J-31 (FC-31) V2.0 Prototype Test Flight 20170428



Don't you have a video link for it?


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## Deino

simple Brain said:


> Don't you have a video link for it?




Just look exactly two posts above !

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## simple Brain

Deino said:


> Just look exactly two posts above !



Cheers mate got it,


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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Oh my bad, lost in translation, supposed to be the "NEW Chinese military version with all the above mentioned changes compared to the original prototypes
> @新浪军事
> 【美媒称2.0版FC31增重3吨 中国军方定制款已获拨款】美大众科学网站称，中国新版FC31比原先验证机增重3吨、增长0.5米，新配IRST光电传感器、隐形垂尾、无烟充分燃烧发动机和改进型雷达，装备了能实现传感器融合的航电设备和数据链路。文章还称，FC31的军方定制版已赢得政府拨款。_O_美:FC31战机已获中国军方拨款



Are you sure? The article quoted PopSci, which alleges that the v2.0 prototype had the above changes.


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## grey boy 2

From the PLA recruiting video, FC-31 was there, perhaps some more hints it has became a PLA program? (2017官方征兵宣传片《中国力量》空军部分战斗机就是J20 和 Fc31)

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## 帅的一匹

grey boy 2 said:


> From the PLA recruiting video, FC-31 was there, perhaps some more hints it has became a PLA program? (2017官方征兵宣传片《中国力量》空军部分战斗机就是J20 和 Fc31)


Amazing, I always support J31.

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## samsara

grey boy 2 said:


> From the PLA recruiting video, FC-31 was there, perhaps some more hints it has became a PLA program? (2017官方征兵宣传片《中国力量》空军部分战斗机就是J20 和 Fc31)


_"The Power of China":_
_China's PLA army enlists pop-style music video to recruit young soldiers_






Watch the 01:30

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## Deino

samsara said:


> _"The Power of China":_
> _China's PLA army enlists pop-style music video to recruit young soldiers_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch the 01:30




Maybe just a similar stupid mistake as the J-10s on the latest "official" PLAN poster ???


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## Akasa

Could someone summarize the article below?

http://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404103611507436954

From Google Translate it seems that CCTV conducted an interview with "赵霞", apparently a chief deputy designer within SAC. Main points (suspected) are below:
- Next-gen PLANAF carrier-borne 5th gen fighter will be from SAC
- It is unknown if the FC-31 or a further-developed variant will be chosen (latter is more likely)
- Current FC-31 (including V2) prototypes are simply tech demonstrators
- R&D of the next-gen fighter (carrier-borne) has started

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## waja2000

I not believe FC31/J31 got 3 tons of weight added with no change to hull, just bull shit by media.

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## 帅的一匹

waja2000 said:


> I not believe FC31/J31 got 3 tons of weight added with no change to hull, just bull shit by media.


I don't believe either. If 3 tons more weight, then the Thrust to weight ratio will decrease sharply.


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## ChineseToTheBone

Unless there were major changes to its engines that is.


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## samsara

*J-31 fighter suggested for China's first domestically built aircraft carrier*

Source:Global Times Published: 2017-05-05 23:23:39

*J-31 fighter suggested for new aircraft carrier*

The launch of China's first domestically built aircraft carrier 001A has created national sensation in recent days, but experts have noted that the carrier-based aircraft currently in use in China are backward and the country *needs a new aircraft to match the new carrier, such as a version of J-31 stealth fighter. *

A military expert who requested anonymity was quoted by the Science and Technology Daily on Friday as saying that the current carrier-based J-15 fighter jet is a third-generation machine and lags far behind the F-35C jet to be used by the US.

"_If our aircraft carrier can get a modified version of the fourth-generation J-31 fighter jet, it will largely enhance the fighting capability of the aircraft carrier,_" the expert said.

However, another military expert Zhang Wenchang told the same newspaper that several improvements must be made if the J-31 is to be modified into a carrier-based aircraft, *such as additional devices to help the J-31 adapt to the aircraft carrier's landing and takeoff environment, enlarging the plane's wings and tail as well as strengthening the structure of the plane body and the landing gear. *

"_Opinion is divided as to what type of fighter jet is fit to be modified into a carrier-based plane. Some people think that J-20 is more suitable for the mission, as its technologies are more mature than J-31, but the manufacturer of J-31 has more experience in modification of carrier-based jets,_" Zhang noted.

*Newspaper headline: J-31 fighter suggested for new aircraft carrier*

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## nang2

samsara said:


> *J-31 fighter suggested for China's first domestically built aircraft carrier*
> 
> Source:Global Times Published: 2017-05-05 23:23:39
> 
> *J-31 fighter suggested for new aircraft carrier*
> 
> The launch of China's first domestically built aircraft carrier 001A has created national sensation in recent days, but experts have noted that the carrier-based aircraft currently in use in China are backward and the country *needs a new aircraft to match the new carrier, such as a version of J-31 stealth fighter. *
> 
> A military expert who requested anonymity was quoted by the Science and Technology Daily on Friday as saying that the current carrier-based J-15 fighter jet is a third-generation machine and lags far behind the F-35C jet to be used by the US.
> 
> "_If our aircraft carrier can get a modified version of the fourth-generation J-31 fighter jet, it will largely enhance the fighting capability of the aircraft carrier,_" the expert said.
> 
> However, another military expert Zhang Wenchang told the same newspaper that several improvements must be made if the J-31 is to be modified into a carrier-based aircraft, *such as additional devices to help the J-31 adapt to the aircraft carrier's landing and takeoff environment, enlarging the plane's wings and tail as well as strengthening the structure of the plane body and the landing gear. *
> 
> "_Opinion is divided as to what type of fighter jet is fit to be modified into a carrier-based plane. Some people think that J-20 is more suitable for the mission, as its technologies are more mature than J-31, but the manufacturer of J-31 has more experience in modification of carrier-based jets,_" Zhang noted.
> 
> *Newspaper headline: J-31 fighter suggested for new aircraft carrier*


They may as well make it catapulted for upcoming 002. By the time when J-31 is tailed for AC landing, 002 would be launched already.


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## 帅的一匹

waja2000 said:


> I not believe FC31/J31 got 3 tons of weight added with no change to hull, just bull shit by media.


The MTOW increase from 25 tons to 28 tons.

Which means A2 can carry more weapon and fuel than FC31A1. The length of FC31A2 is 17.3m, compared with the 16.8m of A1.

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## cnleio

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 396176
> View attachment 396177


I like J-31 more than J-20 ... coz the outline of stealth fighter as same as U.S F-22, J-31 just need 2x powerful jet engines.

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## 帅的一匹

cnleio said:


> I like J-31 more than J-20 ... coz the outline of stealth fighter as same as U.S F-22, J-31 just need 2x powerful jet engines.


It need two EJ200.

We need a medium weight engine has 10 plus Thrust to weight ratio.

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## cnleio

wanglaokan said:


> It need two EJ200.
> 
> We need a medium weight engine has 10 plus Thrust to weight ratio.

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## 帅的一匹

cnleio said:


> View attachment 396184
> View attachment 396185


Do we have new project of medium type high thrust to weight engine in the pipeline?

Hey@Deino welcome back. How was your camping with your students?

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## samsara

wanglaokan said:


> It need two EJ200.
> 
> We need a medium weight engine has 10 plus Thrust to weight ratio.





cnleio said:


> View attachment 396184
> View attachment 396185


Like this one?  

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/862349034681376769

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Do we have new project of medium type high thrust to weight engine in the pipeline?
> 
> Hey@Deino welcome back. How was your camping with your students?




Not really back but just a lucky moment with internet access.

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## grey boy 2

Updates

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## 帅的一匹

How many V2 prototype as we have now?


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 396176
> View attachment 396177
> 
> 
> 
> The MTOW increase from 25 tons to 28 tons.
> 
> Which means A2 can carry more weapon and fuel than FC31A1. The length of FC31A2 is 17.3m, compared with the 16.8m of A1.



Translated version !

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## fitpOsitive

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> Although , PDF has seen me supporting and loving J-31 but tbh , J-31 is shit near J-20 . Engine is the reason and also it is less stealthy


If it was on PDF guys then you may be seeing 100 squadrons of every aircraft on the face of this earth in PAF. Thanks God its not.

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

grey boy 2 said:


> Updates



J10 & J-20 seem to be stretched and too long and J-31 is well balanced between wing span and overall size


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## ChineseToTheBone

wanglaokan said:


> How many V2 prototype as we have now?


I have been wondering about this as well, since the one we saw near the end of last year appeared to be grey in terms of paint colour rather than yellow.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> How many V2 prototype as we have now?



IMO besides any potential static airframes only two flying birds: FC-31V1 = no. 31001' & FC-31V2.



ChineseToTheBone said:


> I have been wondering about this as well, since the one we saw near the end of last year appeared to be grey in terms of paint colour rather than yellow.



No, the images was so much blurred when it came out first but if You look closely it is clearly yellow. By the way, all images of V2 we've seen since then were also in the yellow primer.

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## monitor

Small but finally two new clear images of the FC-31V2 ...









4 replies 50 retweets 50 likes









*dafeng cao* Retweeted


*dafeng cao*‏ @*xinfengcao* May 12



Replying to @*tomislav_mes*
A translated verison





2 replies 10 retweets 16 likes

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## j20blackdragon

I don't know if the so-called WS-13E is a copy of the RD-33 or a completely different design. But I'm guessing they are similar. I also know that the RD-33 features a modular design.

The Klimov website confirms this.

http://www.klimov.ru/en/production/aircraft/RD-33-family/





And if the modular design is anything like the Pratt & Whitney F100, the augmentor/nozzle module should be fully removable and interchangeable with other modules.






If my theory is correct, that means the RD-33/93 lookalike nozzle you see now is nothing more than a module used to expedite testing of the early pre-production aircraft. China can easily snap-on/snap-off the RD-33/93 nozzle module and insert the stealth nozzle module at any time. We've already seen the stealth nozzle in models. It is not false advertisement.






Furthermore, the fact that the engine has gone from smoky to smokeless tells me that the engine core is now different from the original 31001 prototype. Black smoke comes from the combustion chamber inside the engine core. The combustion chambers (for whatever reason) aren’t able to burn off all of the fuel efficiently, so some particles of the fuel are vented out the engine, which materializes in the form of characteristic black smoke.

You can argue that the new RD-33MK is smokeless. That's true. But I can argue that you have no evidence Russia has sold the RD-33MK to China.






The B-52 is notorious for black smoke. My point is that the black smoke is coming from the engine core.






Lastly, it would make no sense for SAC to make such drastic changes to the aircraft if there were no customer for the FC-31. The FC-31 has made the same jump the J-20 did when it went from the 200X prototypes to the 201X pre-production aircraft. SAC spent a lot of money to do this, and the design is now finalized.










Also that "decreased space between engines" could mean the engine bays have changed.

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## Brainsucker

j20blackdragon said:


> I don't know if the so-called WS-13E is a copy of the RD-33 or a completely different design. But I'm guessing they are similar. I also know that the RD-33 features a modular design.
> 
> The Klimov website confirms this.
> 
> http://www.klimov.ru/en/production/aircraft/RD-33-family/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if the modular design is anything like the Pratt & Whitney F100, the augmentor/nozzle module should be fully removable and interchangeable with other modules.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If my theory is correct, that means the RD-33/93 lookalike nozzle you see now is nothing more than a module used to expedite testing of the early pre-production aircraft. China can easily snap-on/snap-off the RD-33/93 nozzle module and insert the stealth nozzle module at any time. We've already seen the stealth nozzle in models. It is not false advertisement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Furthermore, the fact that the engine has gone from smoky to smokeless tells me that the engine core is now different from the original 31001 prototype. Black smoke comes from the combustion chamber inside the engine core. The combustion chambers (for whatever reason) aren’t able to burn off all of the fuel efficiently, so some particles of the fuel are vented out the engine, which materializes in the form of characteristic black smoke.
> 
> You can argue that the new RD-33MK is smokeless. That's true. But I can argue that you have no evidence Russia has sold the RD-33MK to China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The B-52 is notorious for black smoke. My point is that the black smoke is coming from the engine core.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, it would make no sense for SAC to make such drastic changes to the aircraft if there were no customer for the FC-31. The FC-31 has made the same jump the J-20 did when it went from the 200X prototypes to the 201X pre-production aircraft. SAC spent a lot of money to do this, and the design is now finalized.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also that "decreased space between engines" could mean the engine bays have changed.



The decreased space between engine..., could be that the engine is bigger now? Maybe they're no longer use RD93 but AL-31 or WS-10? Because from what I read in here, somebody said that the body of the new prototype is bigger than the V1 version.

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## WarFariX

Brainsucker said:


> The decreased space between engine..., could be that the engine is bigger now? Maybe they're no longer use RD93 but AL-31 or WS-10? Because from what I read in here, somebody said that the body of the new prototype is bigger than the V1 version.


The body is lenghtier as well as the fuselage is a bit wider

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## UKBengali

Brainsucker said:


> The decreased space between engine..., could be that the engine is bigger now? Maybe they're no longer use RD93 but AL-31 or WS-10? Because from what I read in here, somebody said that the body of the new prototype is bigger than the V1 version.



Impossible to be using either AL-31 or WS-10A
as the J-31 cannot fit two of these engines side by side in it's body.
Maybe WS-13X has been installed.

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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> The decreased space between engine..., could be that the engine is bigger now? Maybe they're no longer use RD93 but AL-31 or WS-10? Because from what I read in here, somebody said that the body of the new prototype is bigger than the V1 version.



Never ever ... just look at the nozzles, they are clearly RD-33/-93 or WS-13. The WS-10 or AL-31F are massively larger.

No way the FC-31 will use such a high-thrust engine.

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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> Never ever ... just look at the nozzles, they are clearly RD-33/-93 or WS-13. The WS-10 or AL-31F are massively larger.
> 
> No way the FC-31 will use such a high-thrust engine.
> 
> View attachment 396796



But Deino, if FC-31 will be developed into Fighter for Aircraft Carrier, won't it need bigger thrust to get out from Liaoning of Shandong? Plus it's bigger than the previous prototype.


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## 帅的一匹

Brainsucker said:


> But Deino, if FC-31 will be developed into Fighter for Aircraft Carrier, won't it need bigger thrust to get out from Liaoning of Shandong? Plus it's bigger than the previous prototype.


All they need to do is increasing the thrust to weight ratio of WS13, from 8.8 to 10.

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## Beast

Brainsucker said:


> But Deino, if FC-31 will be developed into Fighter for Aircraft Carrier, won't it need bigger thrust to get out from Liaoning of Shandong? Plus it's bigger than the previous prototype.


Mi-29k?

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## Brainsucker

Beast said:


> Mi-29k?



Which is bigger, Mig-29K or the newest FC-31 prototype?


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## Ultima Thule

Brainsucker said:


> Which is bigger, Mig-29K or the newest FC-31 prototype?


Both are have almost same dimension

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## damiendehorn

Brainsucker said:


> Which is bigger, Mig-29K or the newest FC-31 prototype?



Both are roughly the same weight cat, while the J31 will eventually have a higher thrust engines (and reduced weight due to composite materials). The size of the wings may need to be increased to allow better carrier ops.

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## Deino

Ohhhh ... I want an image of the real deal in that size !! Not necessarily with the PL-12 launch.

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## waja2000

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 396176
> View attachment 396177
> 
> The MTOW increase from 25 tons to 28 tons.
> Which means A2 can carry more weapon and fuel than FC31A1. The length of FC31A2 is 17.3m, compared with the 16.8m of A1.



IF MTOW increase than is OK, i early tot is Empty Weight is increase 3 tons.


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## 帅的一匹

waja2000 said:


> IF MTOW increase than is OK, i early tot is Empty Weight is increase 3 tons.


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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Updates: new but blurry



Not new (already posted on 8th March) and also not real. Only a CG ... just look at the panel lines, panel colours.

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## Deino

A slightly bigger version of the image from 11. May

Deino

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## WarFariX

FC-31v3.0 to make appearance in Paris Air show , June 2017

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## grey boy 2

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> View attachment 398587
> 
> 
> FC-31v3.0 to make appearance in Paris Air show , June 2017


I'm not sure if the FC-31 version 3 will appear at the Paris airshow in June or not, 
However the post you posted clearly said rumors that FC-31Version 3 will be having its 1st flight in June 2017, but not sure where it go from there pal

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> I'm not sure if the FC-31 version 3 will appear at the Paris airshow in June or not,
> However the post you posted clearly said rumors that FC-31Version 3 will be having its 1st flight in June 2017, but not sure where it go from there pal


how credible this guy is?


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## grey boy 2

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> how credible this guy is?


He's pretty solid with his credibility , i heard he's a PHD

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## 帅的一匹

grey boy 2 said:


> He's pretty solid with his credibility , i heard he's a PHD


What is the V3 all about? An onboard version?


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## Ultima Thule

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> View attachment 398587
> 
> 
> FC-31v3.0 to make appearance in Paris Air show , June 2017


I think this is v2.0 somewhere in this vary forum i read v3.0 model will be appearance in Paris Air show, June 2017


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## Stuttgart001

There is no possibility of developing a new version in half an year after the version 2.0's appearance in late 2016.
Just a rumor.


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## Ultima Thule

Stuttgart001 said:


> There in no possibility of developing an new version in half an year after the version 2.0's appearance in late 2016.
> Just a rumor.


If design was frozen it is possible Sir I think it will be quite possible that v 3.0 model will be shown in coming Paris airshow but that for sure this is not a v3.0 but a a second v2.0


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## princefaisal

Design should be frozen after the next version so that its construction may begin for early induction in 2019-2020.


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## Stuttgart001

pakistanipower said:


> If design was frozen it is possible Sir I think it will be quite possible that v 3.0 model will be shown in coming Paris airshow but that for sure this is not a v3.0 but a a second v2.0


That depends on the progress of the project.
The most important thing is to find a suitable engine with thrust huge enough to provide the capability of supersonic cruise.
Then comes the stealth ability which is the key trait for a fifth gen fighter jet ,which has given an overwhelming superiority proved by US's drill and China's internal air combat exercise.

As for the aviation, it is not a big deal for SOC ，cause they could get the tech with the same level of J-20's from the same supplier of J-20.

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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> View attachment 398587
> 
> 
> FC-31v3.0 to make appearance in Paris Air show , June 2017




Never ever ! It is plain impossible - even if they would manage to fly an alleged V3 before Paris (what I also highly doubt) - to bring that bird to Paris.

From all reports we've heard it will be a model of V3 but we have to remember that also several of these reports say that the current bird we call V2 is already V3.

Deino

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Never ever ! It is plain impossible - even if they would manage to fly an alleged V3 before Paris (what I also highly doubt) - to bring that bird to Paris.
> 
> From all reports we've heard it will be a model of V3 but we have to remember that also several of these reports say that the current bird we call V2 is already V3.
> 
> Deino


The current one looks cool enough.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Never ever ! It is plain impossible - even if they would manage to fly an alleged V3 before Paris (what I also highly doubt) - to bring that bird to Paris.
> 
> From all reports we've heard it will be a model of V3 but we have to remember that also several of these reports say that the current bird we call V2 is already V3.
> 
> Deino


when did i say fly :-/ , even i doubt this situation. Model expectations are realistic but a new machine....however , we must not ignore the timeframe between v1 and v2 so it is also possible that another prototype might have been built simultaneously and finishing has been done in the past 5-6 months



pakistanipower said:


> If design was frozen it is possible Sir I think it will be quite possible that v 3.0 model will be shown in coming Paris airshow but that for sure this is not a v3.0 but a a second v2.0


The current v2.0 we have been seeing is not a pure form of v2.0 either , Some noticeable differences between pure v2.0 on paper and the one we saw are : ◇Pure has single cockpit canopy but the one flying has dual canopy. ◇ Lacks EOTS but true v2.0 has EOTS. Could be possible that we might finally see a pure v2.0


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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> when did i say fly :-/ , even i doubt this situation. Model expectations are realistic but a new machine....however , we must not ignore the timeframe between v1 and v2 so it is also possible that another prototype might have been built simultaneously and finishing has been done in the past 5-6 months



Indeed, You did not say "fly", but I only wanted to precise since in order to "appear" at the Air Show (the real prototype) it must have been flown. A model of V3 however is always possible.



WarFariX said:


> FC-31v3.0 to make appearance in Paris Air show , June 2017



Ergo again: I only wanted to make that clear that a real "appearance" of a true V3-prototype at Paris is impossible.

How much the program otherwise progressed in the meantime is completely unknown and not dependent on the time between the appearance of V1 and V2. They could - with proper founding - well build two prototypes simultaneously (aka a V2 and a V3) similar to the J-20 prototypes 2011/12, 2013/15 and 2016/17 were built in batches of two.

How much however this V3 differs to the recently flown V2 differs is unclear IMO.

So let's wait and see ... and hope.
Deino

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Indeed, You did not say "fly", but I only wanted to precise since in order to "appear" at the Air Show (the real prototype) it must have been flown. A model of V3 however is always possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Ergo again: I only wanted to make that clear that a real "appearance" of a true V3-prototype at Paris is impossible.
> 
> How much the program otherwise progressed in the meantime is completely unknown and not dependent on the time between the appearance of V1 and V2. They could - with proper founding - well build two prototypes simultaneously (aka a V2 and a V3) similar to the J-20 prototypes 2011/12, 2013/15 and 2016/17 were built in batches of two.
> 
> How much however this V3 differs to the recently flown V2 differs is unclear IMO.
> 
> So let's wait and see ... and hope.
> Deino


Btw i just had a name change from MarvellousThunder to WarfariX , @The Accountant @Deino

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## The Accountant

WarFariX said:


> Btw i just had a name change from MarvellousThunder to WarfariX , @The Accountant @Deino


Your previous name was also good ... why change that ?


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## WarFariX

The Accountant said:


> Your previous name was also good ... why change that ?


Too large plus WarFariX will be the name of my new military graphics page..i am inspired from battlespaceX and RadioActiveFriends and also iForceWarfare...so dreaming to become like them

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## Ultima Thule

Stuttgart001 said:


> That depends on the progress of the project.
> The most important thing is to find a suitable engine with thrust huge enough to provide the capability of supersonic cruise.
> Then comes the stealth ability which is the key trait for a fifth gen fighter jet ,which has given an overwhelming superiority proved by US's drill and China's internal air combat exercise.
> 
> As for the aviation, it is not a big deal for SOC ，cause they could get the tech with the same level of J-20's from the same supplier of J-20.


But bro i don't like plan-form alignment of J-20 with carnad and ventral fins which gives extra surfaces to radars, but design of FC-31 is more mature than J-20 as for engines upgraded WS-13E with a thrust of 22000+ should fit the bill


WarFariX said:


> when did i say fly :-/ , even i doubt this situation. Model expectations are realistic but a new machine....however , we must not ignore the timeframe between v1 and v2 so it is also possible that another prototype might have been built simultaneously and finishing has been done in the past 5-6 months


What is the time duration b/w v1 and v2, as far as i remember it was almost 3 years

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## Blue Marlin

the final frozen prototype will fly in 2019, it will have a 6 bay wide internal bay with the ability to hold 12, 250kg smart bombs. and if a buyer/partner arrives on time, it will can begin deliveries in 2023/4.


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## UKBengali

Blue Marlin said:


> the final frozen prototype will fly in 2019, it will have a 6 bay wide internal bay with the ability to hold 12, 250kg smart bombs. and if a buyer/partner arrives on time, it will can begin deliveries in 2023/4.



Where did you get this information from?


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## Ultima Thule

UKBengali said:


> Where did you get this information from?


He is just speculating sir


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## Stuttgart001

pakistanipower said:


> But bro i don't like plan-form alignment of J-20 with carnad and ventral fins which gives extra surfaces to radars, but design of FC-31 is more mature than J-20 as for engines upgraded WS-13E with a thrust of 22000+ should fit the bill


I can understand. 
FC-31 is more like F-22 than J-20 in aerodynamic configuration.
But only the PLAAF and CAC know the real RCS of J-20. 
Since PLAAF put all his bet on J-20 for countering the F-22&F-35, i think, the level of stealth of J-20 is acceptable as the counterpart of US's 5th get fighter.





BYB, what ventral fins do you mention ?


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## Ultima Thule

Stuttgart001 said:


> I can understand.
> FC-31 is more like F-22 than J-20 in aerodynamic configuration.
> But only the PLAAF and CAC know the real RCS of J-20.
> Since PLAAF put all his bet on J-20 for countering the F-22&F-35, i think, the level of stealth of J-20 is acceptable as the counterpart of US's 5th get fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BYB, what ventral fins do you mention ?


I think J-20 is more like a interceptor rather than a AD jet using shoot and scoot tactics rather than a dog fighter, it has a more RCS from head-on and sideways compare to FC-31
This ones


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## Stuttgart001

pakistanipower said:


> I think J-20 is more like a interceptor rather than a AD jet using shoot and scoot tactics rather than a dog fighter, it has a more RCS from head-on and sideways compare to FC-31
> This ones
> View attachment 398871


It is not vertical.

Dog fighter is a outdated tactic.
The history of war has indicated that the range of combat is larger and larger ,since the improvement of tech.

It is hard to say whose RCS is less between J-20 and J-35.

You know, F-22 as a bigger plane has a less RCS than F-35 a relatively small aircraft.


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## gambit

Stuttgart001 said:


> Dog fighter is a outdated tactic.


No, it is not.

There will always be situations where BVR engagements are not possible, such as ROE that requires visual IDs of the target(s).



Stuttgart001 said:


> The history of war has indicated that the range of combat is larger and larger ,since the improvement of tech.


True, but take the infantryman for example.

Did the advent of the rifle, which increase the range of lethality he can deliver, do away with close quarters combat ? Urban situations is where both visual IDs of the target negate the rifle's long reach.



Stuttgart001 said:


> It is hard to say whose RCS is less between J-20 and J-35.
> 
> You know, F-22 as a bigger plane has a less RCS than F-35 a relatively small aircraft.


There are three major rules in designing a low radar observable body:

- Control of quantity of radiators
- Control of array of radiators
- Control of modes of radiation

These are not rules that you can break, rather, they are more like guidelines where you have degrees of obedience to them.

Why is the sphere the ideal body for radar calibration ?

The reason the sphere is the ideal 'stealth' body is because the sphere is the most obedient to the three rules.

*- Control of quantity of radiators*

The sphere have only one radiating body -- itself.

*- Control of array of radiators*

The sphere have none. It has no protrusions where each structure is a radiator and whose radiation can interact with radiation from other structures.

*- Control of modes of radiation*

The sphere have only two modes of radiation: specular and surface waves.

http://www.centurymetalspinning.com/radar-calibration-spheres/

There is one in orbit...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Calibration_Sphere_1

When we put all three rules together and apply it to the sphere, there can be a sphere that is visually large but electromagnetically small or 'stealthy'. In other words, you can see the sphere with your own eyes but your radar will not see the sphere with its own EM radiation.

A structure like a fin have at least three modes of radiation: specular, edge diffraction, surface waves.

For example...






This means you want to minimize the *QUANTITY* of these structures as much as possible. Unfortunately, today's aircrafts still needs structures like the fin to have controlled flight. So if you must have these structures, you move to rule Two: Control of *ARRAY* of radiators.

Since these structures are in proximity to each other, interactions from their radiation are inevitable. Each mode of radiation have different levels of strength and power. Each interaction, aka 'interference', can be destructive ( good ) or constructive ( bad ). Destructive interference cancels each other out. Constructive interference amplifies. This is what rule two means by 'array of radiators'. Whether a fin is vertical or not, depending on your viewing angle, is not the point. What is that fin's physical relationships to nearby structures -- is the point.

The bottom line is that the greater the quantity of radiators, the more difficult it is to predict interference incidents and to compensate for them.

This is why the J-20 is suspect regarding comparison to the F-22 in terms of all aspects RCS. Suspect as in having a higher total RCS.

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## Ultima Thule

Stuttgart001 said:


> It is not vertical.
> 
> Dog fighter is a outdated tactic.
> The history of war has indicated that the range of combat is larger and larger ,since the improvement of tech.
> 
> It is hard to say whose RCS is less between J-20 and J-35.
> 
> You know, F-22 as a bigger plane has a less RCS than F-35 a relatively small aircraft.


but its still increases J-20 RCS from sides and head on RCS is larger than side one
as for F-22, its uses broad band stealth whereas F-35 uses narrow band stealth for specific radars, and also they are difference in role F-22 role is AD jet, its jobs to enter enemy territory and clean sweep its opponents where JSF is mainly a multirole jet with more emphasis on CAS, SEAD and DEAD missions
no sir dog fight is not a oudated tactics, its still has a worth



gambit said:


> Since these structures are in proximity to each other, interactions from their radiation are inevitable. Each mode of radiation have different levels of strength and power. Each interaction, aka 'interference', can be destructive ( good ) or constructive ( bad ). Destructive interference cancels each other out. Constructive interference amplifies. This is what rule two means by 'array of radiators'. Whether a fin is vertical or not, depending on your viewing angle, is not the point. What is that fin's physical relationships to nearby structures -- is the point.
> 
> The bottom line is that the greater the quantity of radiators, the more difficult it is to predict interference incidents and to compensate for them.


 you stole my words sir thank you for explaining him and me

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## WarFariX

pakistanipower said:


> But bro i don't like plan-form alignment of J-20 with carnad and ventral fins which gives extra surfaces to radars, but design of FC-31 is more mature than J-20 as for engines upgraded WS-13E with a thrust of 22000+ should fit the bill
> 
> What is the time duration b/w v1 and v2, as far as i remember it was almost 3 years


Was it small ? 



gambit said:


> No, it is not.
> 
> There will always be situations where BVR engagements are not possible, such as ROE that requires visual IDs of the target(s).
> 
> 
> True, but take the infantryman for example.
> 
> Did the advent of the rifle, which increase the range of lethality he can deliver, do away with close quarters combat ? Urban situations is where both visual IDs of the target negate the rifle's long reach.
> 
> 
> There are three major rules in designing a low radar observable body:
> 
> - Control of quantity of radiators
> - Control of array of radiators
> - Control of modes of radiation
> 
> These are not rules that you can break, rather, they are more like guidelines where you have degrees of obedience to them.
> 
> Why is the sphere the ideal body for radar calibration ?
> 
> The reason the sphere is the ideal 'stealth' body is because the sphere is the most obedient to the three rules.
> 
> *- Control of quantity of radiators*
> 
> The sphere have only one radiating body -- itself.
> 
> *- Control of array of radiators*
> 
> The sphere have none. It has no protrusions where each structure is a radiator and whose radiation can interact with radiation from other structures.
> 
> *- Control of modes of radiation*
> 
> The sphere have only two modes of radiation: specular and surface waves.
> 
> http://www.centurymetalspinning.com/radar-calibration-spheres/
> 
> There is one in orbit...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Calibration_Sphere_1
> 
> When we put all three rules together and apply it to the sphere, there can be a sphere that is visually large but electromagnetically small or 'stealthy'. In other words, you can see the sphere with your own eyes but your radar will not see the sphere with its own EM radiation.
> 
> A structure like a fin have at least three modes of radiation: specular, edge diffraction, surface waves.
> 
> For example...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This means you want to minimize the *QUANTITY* of these structures as much as possible. Unfortunately, today's aircrafts still needs structures like the fin to have controlled flight. So if you must have these structures, you move to rule Two: Control of *ARRAY* of radiators.
> 
> Since these structures are in proximity to each other, interactions from their radiation are inevitable. Each mode of radiation have different levels of strength and power. Each interaction, aka 'interference', can be destructive ( good ) or constructive ( bad ). Destructive interference cancels each other out. Constructive interference amplifies. This is what rule two means by 'array of radiators'. Whether a fin is vertical or not, depending on your viewing angle, is not the point. What is that fin's physical relationships to nearby structures -- is the point.
> 
> The bottom line is that the greater the quantity of radiators, the more difficult it is to predict interference incidents and to compensate for them.
> 
> This is why the J-20 is suspect regarding comparison to the F-22 in terms of all aspects RCS. Suspect as in having a higher total RCS.


You just put my recently learned physics to application :-(


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## Blue Marlin

pakistanipower said:


> He is just speculating sir


the pt-3 will have 6 bays as said on afm. on a single bay you can fit 2x500lb bombs

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## WarFariX

Blue Marlin said:


> the pt-3 will have 6 bays as said on afm. on a single bay you can fit 2x500lb bombs


Did he say that on AFM too??? 6 bays?


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## Blue Marlin

WarFariX said:


> Did he say that on AFM too??? 6 bays?


yes


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## Deino

Blue Marlin said:


> the pt-3 will have 6 bays as said on afm. on a single bay you can fit 2x500lb bombs


To admit I'm more than sceptical concerning this statement: IMO that type is simply too small to have the same PL-10-bay on the side and even more two more bays than the J-20, which is not a small fighter.

Another reason I don't believe these rumours is that - again IMO - it is unlikely to develop a demonstrator (aka 31001), the fly a dramatically modified version V2 three years later and then redesign that type again so much. IMO highly unlikely.

Deino


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## gambit

WarFariX said:


> You just put my recently learned physics to application :-(


What I posted is literally yrs old on this forum.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> To admit I'm more than sceptical concerning this statement: IMO that type is simply too small to have the same PL-10-bay on the side and even more two more bays than the J-20, which is not a small fighter.
> 
> Another reason I don't believe these rumours is that - again IMO - it is unlikely to develop a demonstrator (aka 31001), the fly a dramatically modified version V2 three years later and then redesign that type again so much. IMO highly unlikely.
> 
> Deino


Like i said earlier , the one we are expecting could be another v2 unit but full version with EOTS and single canopy and possibly different engine

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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> Like i said earlier , the one we are expecting could be another v2 unit but full version with EOTS and single canopy and possibly different engine


...  exactly, but IMO highly unlikely an "enlarged" one with WS-10X or structurally different to V2 by including four more weapon bays.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> ...  exactly, but IMO highly unlikely an "enlarged" one with WS-10X or structurally different to V2 by including four more weapon bays.


WS-10 is not an option for this small airframe . Btw , did anyone even rumour on 4 bays yet ?


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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> WS-10 is not an option for this small airframe . Btw , did anyone even rumour on 4 bays yet ?


As far as I know there was always only one large or at best one divided center-bay. As such I really don't know where this rumour of 6 bays is from and even more where to fit them.

No current fifth generation fighter has so many.

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## antonius123

gambit said:


> No, it is not.
> 
> There will always be situations where BVR engagements are not possible, such as ROE that requires visual IDs of the target(s).



There is still WVR engagement involving HMD and off bore sight missile which outdates dogfight.

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## Ultima Thule

antonius123 said:


> There is still WVR engagement involving HMD and off bore sight missile which outdates dogfight.


No it has still a worth 

@Deino, @WarFariX can you guys seen any guns on both J-20 and FC-31


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## WarFariX

pakistanipower said:


> No it has still a worth
> 
> @Deino, @WarFariX can you guys seen any guns on both J-20 and FC-31


I saw a huge 18 pages long debate on J20 thread of it having gun or not but never saw a gun on j20 tho however i dont think FC31 has any gun. Even the demo video didnt show any gun

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## Tiqiu

Let's see if this is the naval version that people are talking about.
Will its engine be Taishan or Huangshan?

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## 帅的一匹

The more prototype the better, it will accelerate the induction of J31.

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## ChineseToTheBone

Would this be a model under transit or rather a prototype? Surely the real plane weighs too much.


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## WarFariX

Tiqiu said:


> Let's see if this is the naval version that people are talking about.
> Will its engine be Taishan or Huangshan?
> View attachment 399508
> 
> View attachment 399509


@Deino @wanglaokan @grey boy 2 @Chinese-Dragon The vertical stabilizers look more like J20 rather than J31 so is this another j20 under garments?


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## cirr

WarFariX said:


> @Deino @wanglaokan @grey boy 2 @Chinese-Dragon The vertical stabilizers look more like J20 rather than J31 so is this another j20 under garments?



UAV!?

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## WarFariX

cirr said:


> UAV!?


Judging by the vertical stabilizers , it does look like Wingloong but question is , why would a UAV be covered like this..and yes , This is not UAV , its most probably J-20

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## clibra



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## grey boy 2

clibra said:


>


Beautiful bird, thanks for sharing bro

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## Ultima Thule

clibra said:


>





grey boy 2 said:


> Beautiful bird, thanks for sharing bro


i would say better than J-20 in term of forward and sideways stealth

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## clibra

grey boy 2 said:


> Beautiful bird, thanks for sharing bro



I guess FC31 have better lift-drag ratio than F35, which will compensate the inferiority of engine thrust.

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## Ultima Thule

clibra said:


> I guess FC31 have better lift-drag ratio than F35, which will compensate the inferiority of engine thrust.


its more oriented toward Air to Air rather F-35 and its also has flatter fuselage as compare to F-35 hinted that its AD jet than CAS, SEAD, DEAD jet

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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> Judging by the vertical stabilizers , it does look like Wingloong but question is , why would a UAV be covered like this..and yes , This is not UAV , its most probably J-20




From what I read it is indeed an UAV, a BZK-005 !

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## Ultima Thule

Deino said:


> From what I read it is indeed an UAV, a BZK-005 !


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## Deino

pakistanipower said:


>




And why You did not complain with cirr's post or any other comment to the two images. Seems as if You plain and simple have a personnel issue but I'm sure You will call another moderator to delete my trolling post.


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## Beast

Looks like 2 different engine fit on the J-31.

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## Ultima Thule

Deino said:


> And why You did not complain with cirr's post or any other comment to the two images. Seems as if You plain and simple have a personnel issue but I'm sure You will call another moderator to delete my trolling post.


With due respect we all discussing FC-31 nor we discussing UAV sir


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Looks like 2 different engine fit on the J-31.




Why do You think ?? You mean similar to the two engines tested on V1 some time ago?

Here a slightly modified version of the image, which could help to better decide.... the left one seems indeed a bit darker.

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Why do You think ?? You mean similar to the two engines tested on V1 some time ago?
> 
> Here a slightly modified version of the image, which could help to better decide.... the left one seems indeed a bit darker.
> 
> View attachment 400034


Is it because the light reflection distortion?


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> From what I read it is indeed an UAV, a BZK-005 !


Can i get more pics of BZK-005 on chinese uav thread with me tagged on post sir :-(

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## Deino

Will be interesting to see, when SAC will paint this bird.

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## 帅的一匹

WarFariX said:


> View attachment 400065
> View attachment 400066
> 
> 
> 
> Can i get more pics of BZK-005 on chinese uav thread with me tagged on post sir :-(


FC31 is the most sexy fighter China produce, it looks perfect from every angle.



Deino said:


> Will be interesting to see, when SAC will paint this bird.


Wish same as J20, figure crossed.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/869551838663725056

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## Deino

Just a bit turned around !

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## Muhammad Omar

Sexy   want to see it in Grey with Black Spots

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## 帅的一匹

The weapon bay is huge.

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## clibra

wanglaokan said:


> The weapon bay is huge.



Yes, it looks like even a little bigger than J20's.

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## Deino

I know I will surely get my daily rants again but IMO they are not larger than the J-20's bay, the FC-31 is simply smaller !

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## grey boy 2

V1 compared to V2

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## Stealth

Mark my words... this Aircraft will be induct by Pakistan Airforce ALONG with China ... whatsoever reason.... China will not hesitate in terms of cost... agree or disagree... this aircraft will be "Pakistan's front line fighter" in future! THANKS TO CHINA for this SEXIEST aircraft.. just make engine nozzles like Raptor

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## That Guy

Stealth said:


> Mark my words... this Aircraft will be inducted by Pakistan Airforce ALONG with China ... whatsoever reason.... China will not hesitate in terms of cost... agree or disagree... this aircraft will be "Pakistan's front line fighter" in future! THANKS TO CHINA for this SEXIEST aircraft.. just make engine nozzles like Raptor


That's not a great revelation, your words have no need to be marked. From the beginning, this was likely going to be the case.



wanglaokan said:


> The weapon bay is huge.


I wouldn't say it's huge, but rather that the aircraft itself is small. Perceptive makes all the difference.


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## 帅的一匹

That Guy said:


> That's not a great revelation, your words have no need to be marked. From the beginning, this was likely going to be the case.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say it's huge, but rather that the aircraft itself is small. Perceptive makes all the difference.


Sir, I think a aircraft with 28 tons of MTOW is ok?


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## That Guy

wanglaokan said:


> Sir, I think a aircraft with 28 tons of MTOW is ok?


¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## ChineseToTheBone

Stealth said:


> Mark my words... this Aircraft will be inducted by Pakistan Airforce ALONG with China ... whatsoever reason.... China will not hesitate in terms of cost... agree or disagree... this aircraft will be "Pakistan's front line fighter" in future! THANKS TO CHINA for this SEXIEST aircraft.. just make engine nozzles like Raptor


There is a good chance that Pakistan will be able to buy the J-31 from China even before Russia and Sukhoi officially deliver variants of their stealth fighter jets to India.

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## 帅的一匹

ChineseToTheBone said:


> There is a good chance that Pakistan will be able to buy the J-31 from China even before Russia and Sukhoi officially deliver variants of their stealth fighter jets to India.


India now is stuck in the FGFA project. Russian ask for 7billions for TOT.

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## Cybernetics

WarFariX said:


> View attachment 400065
> View attachment 400066
> 
> 
> 
> Can i get more pics of BZK-005 on chinese uav thread with me tagged on post sir :-(





wanglaokan said:


> The weapon bay is huge.


The weapons bay do indeed look huge. By a rough estimate the bay looks to be about a quarter of the total aircraft length. Assuming the plane is 17.3 m long the bay should be around 4.3 m long. This is compared to f-22 and f-35 weapons bay which is estimated at 3.9m for both (f-35 a/c variants have slightly larger bays).

The first link talks about how most air-to-ground munitions are 3.8m to 4.25m long making most unable to fit into the f-22 and f-35 bays, hence the development of the small diameter bombs. If the estimate for the j-31 weapons bay length is accurate then it possible that it is able to fit most traditional air-to-ground munitions. The j-31 looks to be designed to have good ground attack capabilities.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0163.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Diameter_Bomb
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-53/B

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## 帅的一匹



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## Ultima Thule

grey boy 2 said:


> V1 compared to V2


i would say slighty larger as compare to v1


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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> i would say slighty larger as compare to v1


V2 can have LGB and V1 can't.

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## waja2000

2017 Paris Air Show aircraft list (updated in May).... no sign FC-31 will come yet.
https://www.siae.fr/visiteurs_pro/liste_des_aeronefs.htm


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## 帅的一匹

waja2000 said:


> 2017 Paris Air Show aircraft list (updated in May).... no sign FC-31 will come yet.
> https://www.siae.fr/visiteurs_pro/liste_des_aeronefs.htm


Model yes, real one no.

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## Ultima Thule

wanglaokan said:


> V2 can have LGB and V1 can't.


Nothing unusual sir v2 inceases its dimensions so does its weapon bays


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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> Nothing unusual sir v2 inceases its dimensions so does its weapon bays


It means FC31 has ground strike ability.

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## Ultima Thule

wanglaokan said:


> It means FC31 has ground strike ability.


From its beginning FC-31 pretend to be multirole jet just like a combo of F-22 and F-35, still no surprise


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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> From its beginning FC-31 pretend to be multirole jet just like a combo of F-22 and F-35, still no surprise


Ammunition Miniaturization is the difficult point of 5th gen fighter.

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## WarFariX

waja2000 said:


> 2017 Paris Air Show aircraft list (updated in May).... no sign FC-31 will come yet.
> https://www.siae.fr/visiteurs_pro/liste_des_aeronefs.htm


Paris air show list isnt complete yet , many other participating jets havent been announced officially.


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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> Paris air show list isnt complete yet , many other participating jets havent been announced officially.




I think it's more than safe to say, FC-31V2 will not appear at Paris and even less likely V3 . They will most likely bring a model for display and hopefully a more reliable representation to that "look-alike" toy at Zhuhai, but not the real aircraft.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> I think it's more than safe to say, FC-31V2 will not appear at Paris and even less likely V3 . They will most likely bring a model for display and hopefully a more reliable representation to that "look-alike" toy at Zhuhai, but not the real aircraft.


Well thats common sense from day 1 sir off course real machine wont show up until its operational ready. Model will be displayed as usual. But what interests me is what modifications will be on the model. Lets wait for tommorow 1st june. I hope v3 flies tommorow


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## mzeeshanfahd

grey boy 2 said:


> V1 compared to V2



The DSI input angles are also different between the two ...

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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> Well thats common sense from day 1 sir off course real machine wont show up until its operational ready. Model will be displayed as usual. But what interests me is what modifications will be on the model. Lets wait for tommorow 1st june. I hope v3 flies tommorow



Regrettably and as much I would love to see it too, IMO a maiden flight tomorrow is highly unlikely. We did not hear any news of this alleged V3 other than the rumours that it exists and I'm sure if there was a maiden flight planned for tomorrow, they must have begun with the taxi-tests already.

At least with V2 we heard a lot more and also got images from the taxi tests. Here so far nothing.

But we'll see.

Deino

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## WarFariX

mzeeshanfahd said:


> The DSI input angles are also different between the two ...


Yes , nice catch

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## grey boy 2



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## waja2000

grey boy 2 said:


> From the PLA recruiting video, FC-31 was there, perhaps some more hints it has became a PLA program? (2017官方征兵宣传片《中国力量》空军部分战斗机就是J20 和 Fc31)



Don‘t think so for current, future J-31 in PLAAF will be determine by new PLAAF commander, as long current commander General Ma in place, hard for J-31 get PLAAF contract and Funding. current commander General Ma already 68 age, expected retire within 1 year. 
PLAN is more possible for J-31 get selected. but quantity is limited around 200-300 unit.

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## WarFariX

J-31v3 makes first flight

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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> J-31v3 makes first flight
> View attachment 400603




@WarFariX !!! Please, my heart. All I have available is my small handy-display at the moment. So please let this be real and not only a joke.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> @WarFariX !!! Please, my heart. All I have available is my small handy-display at the moment. So please let this be real and not only a joke.

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## grey boy 2



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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


>


v2 or v3? BTW that RD-93 smoke. @Deino


----------



## grey boy 2



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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


>


Care to translate please


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## grey boy 2

WarFariX said:


> Care to translate please


May be the next navy stealth fighter jets, looks like V3 is on schedule

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> May be the next navy stealth fighter jets, looks like V3 is on schedule


so this is v3? or is it gonna be seen soon?

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## grey boy 2

WarFariX said:


> so this is v3? or is it gonna be seen soon?


Its V2 in the picture but V3 is real

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> Its V2 in the picture but V3 is real


so any idea when will it fly or will be ready?


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## grey boy 2

WarFariX said:


> so any idea when will it fly or will be ready?


No clue, all its saying has to go through competition for further development

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> No clue, all its saying has to go through competition for further development


So chances of PLAN are increasing now day by day...PLAN will give SAC enough time to make this jet into a beast till 2022 at least until its 3rd carrier operationalizes. By 2022 , J31 would be a beast , would be matured , will have matured WS-13E engines.

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## grey boy 2

WarFariX said:


> So chances of PLAN are increasing now day by day...PLAN will give SAC enough time to make this jet into a beast till 2022 at least until its 3rd carrier operationalizes. By 2022 , J31 would be a beast , would be matured , will have matured WS-13E engines.


Brother, its not i don't want to translate or telling what i've heard from the "Chinese internet" its because nowadays people will attack you if they are the non believers of what you posted even as a messenger
Please note i'm not responsible for the post content, i'm just a nothing more than a messenger
Here's how the V3 rumors started, an "official model of the so-called V3 spotted in the Shenyang museum in Feb 2017
The last model they presented of the V2 came out almost exactly with the last model, so it may be hinting the V3 may look similar as this model shown in this picture (translation of the post)

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> Brother, its not i don't want to translate or telling what i've heard from the "Chinese internet" its because nowadays people will attack you if they are the non believers of what you posted even as a messenger
> Please note i'm not responsible for the post content, i'm just a nothing more than a messenger
> Here's how the V3 rumors started, an "official model of the so-called V3 spotted in the Shenyang museum in Feb 2017
> The last model they presented of the V2 came out almost exactly with the last model, so it may be hinting the V3 may look similar as this model shown in this picture (translation of the post)


Thnx so far dear.





PLAN sets requirement for contenders. Fighter 
has to be medium sized heavy fighter. 
Competition will be among 611(CAC) and 601 (SAC) institute. So far 601 institute's 3.0 (talking about J-31 v3.0 here) is already getting close to 
appearance, looking forward to 611 's project. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) something interesting here buddy

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

WarFariX said:


> Thnx so far dear.
> 
> View attachment 400720
> 
> PLAN sets requirement for contenders. Fighter
> has to be medium sized heavy fighter.
> Competition will be among 611(CAC) and 601 (SAC) institute. So far 601 institute's 3.0 (talking about J-31 v3.0 here) is already getting close to
> appearance, looking forward to 611 's project. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) something interesting here buddy


Scale will be critical. A good platform such as this will have built a big R&D overhead, so it is imperative that the PLAAF and/or PLAN buy a hefty number such that it would be a feasible purchase for the PAF. This would make for a solid strike platform if it can be acquired before 2025.

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## 帅的一匹

If I were 611, I will go for single engine WS15 solution(same as F35). 611 has no chance to win unless they can use single engine design. Cause the current dual engine solution of 601 has been very matured.

The thrust of WS15 is 18 tons. Let say if the future we can have advanced medium thrust engine with 10 tons thrust, then 2 of it will produce 20 tons of thrust. But we have to count in the weight factors and the space we have to waste for dual engine compared with single engine! With the breakthrough of WS15 engine, single engine solution for onboard stealthy fighter will be plausible!

Per strategic and competitive consideration, I think we shall give then navy contract to SAC 601. But I feel goosebump about the possible single engine solution of 611.

To be honest, J20 is the real trump card. It's not easy to design a navy version 5gen easily outclass F35C.

That's why I always say the engine development must come years ahead of the design of a fighter jet!

I hope AVIC can come up with a down-scale version of WS15 with 12 tons of thrust! Then 601's FC31 will be a huge success.

Lord bless China.

Or we can also also apply the magnitude blade technology innovation on the development of new Medium thrust turbofan engine.

We need a medium thrust engine with 12:1 thrust to weight ratio.

I will be comparatively safe to operate on the high sea with dual engine fighter.

I give my judgement: 601 will win the contract.

611 has to concentrate in churn out J20 and J10c/d. No time to spare on medium weight stealthy fighter further.

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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> Thnx so far dear.
> 
> View attachment 400720
> 
> PLAN sets requirement for contenders. Fighter
> has to be medium sized heavy fighter.
> Competition will be among 611(CAC) and 601 (SAC) institute. So far 601 institute's 3.0 (talking about J-31 v3.0 here) is already getting close to
> appearance, looking forward to 611 's project. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) something interesting here buddy




One more ...

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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> One more ...
> 
> View attachment 400764


Its been posted just one page back


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> If I were 611, I will go for single engine WS15 solution(same as F35). 611 has no chance to win unless they can use single engine design. Cause the current dual engine solution of 601 has been very matured.
> 
> The thrust of WS15 is 18 tons. Let say if the future we can have advanced medium thrust engine with 10 tons thrust, then 2 of it will produce 20 tons of thrust. But we have to count in the weight factors and the space we have to waste for dual engine compared with single engine! With the breakthrough of WS15 engine, single engine solution for onboard stealthy fighter will be plausible!
> 
> Per strategic and competitive consideration, I think we shall give then navy contract to SAC 601. But I feel goosebump about the possible single engine solution of 611.
> 
> To be honest, J20 is the real trump card. It's not easy to design a navy version 5gen easily outclass F35C.
> 
> That's why I always say the engine development must come years ahead of the design of a fighter jet!
> 
> I hope AVIC can come up with a down-scale version of WS15 with 12 tons of thrust! Then 601's FC31 will be a huge success.
> 
> Lord bless China.
> 
> Or we can also also apply the magnitude blade technology innovation on the development of new Medium thrust turbofan engine.
> 
> We need a medium thrust engine with 12:1 thrust to weight ratio.
> 
> I will be comparatively safe to operate on the high sea with dual engine fighter.
> 
> I give my judgement: 601 will win the contract.
> 
> 611 has to concentrate in churn out J20 and J10c/d. No time to spare on medium weight stealthy fighter further.




Agreed ... and also I'm not sure how much the PLANAF would like to use a single-engined type off their carriers ?



grey boy 2 said:


> Its been posted just one page back




Oh ! Then sorry.

But here at least one of them a bit larger and clearer.

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## 帅的一匹

The engine still smokes

China lacks master in Aviation engine area.

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## 帅的一匹

We need new engine.

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## rcrmj

who wants bet? this thing might be flying over European skies`````


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## Stealth

Deino said:


> Agreed ... and also I'm not sure how much the PLANAF would like to use a single-engined type off their carriers ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ! Then sorry.
> 
> But here at least one of them a bit larger and clearer.
> 
> View attachment 400765


----------



## Beast

rcrmj said:


> who wants bet? this thing might be flying over European skies`````


I highly doubt so. Despite an export item. There is retain some secrecy which will reserve for friendly nation only.

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## Han Patriot

wanglaokan said:


> We need new engine.


Don't tell me it's still the old Russian crap....


----------



## 帅的一匹

Han Patriot said:


> Don't tell me it's still the old Russian crap....


Those bastards working in the 6


Han Patriot said:


> Don't tell me it's still the old Russian crap....


They should eat sh&t, a bunch of idiot. Maybe WS13 also smoke, who knows? Every time I see our fellow members boast how advanced our engine is, my heart is bleeding.



rcrmj said:


> who wants bet? this thing might be flying over European skies`````


 I think no

Long way to go.

贵发到底行不行啊？这个东西为什么不放在南面搞？比如成发？

The only turbo fan engine being successful until now is WS10 series, others are unknown.

@Sinopakfriend maybr we shall finance PAF to get EJ200 for JF17, so that we can study it.

For God sake, do something. Maybe WS15 down-scale version is more realistic.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

wanglaokan said:


> Those bastards working in the 6
> 
> They should eat sh&t, a bunch of idiot. Maybe WS13 also smoke, who knows? Every time I see our fellow members boast how advanced our engine is, my heart is bleeding.
> 
> I think no
> 
> Long way to go.
> 
> 贵发到底行不行啊？这个东西为什么不放在南面搞？比如成发？
> 
> The only turbo fan engine being successful until now is WS10 series, others are unknown.
> 
> @Sinopakfriend maybr we shall finance PAF to get EJ200 for JF17, so that we can study it.
> 
> For God sake, do something. Maybe WS15 down-scale version is more realistic.




Patience, Patience, my brother. 

Patience = Virtue

I believe when you will hear the news of PAC getting ToT for local Chinese engine production you will go mad with joy. 

Soon, soon... 

Regarding J31 all signs are that the project has PRC backing and its not going to go waste at all. 

However, CAC has been working on single engine stealth fighter for some time now and some PAC involvement was also noted.. could be an evolution of J10 or a new redical design.

Again Patience...good things to those who wait. 

One thing I can say with certainty about China is: *Never underestimate the Chinese...they might fail a thousand times...but they never give up.*

As I have said before PAC will build a Chinese origin stealth fighter for PAF. Also PAC will collaborate with TAI on TFX.

When seen through strategic glasses it is win-win-win paradigm.

You take care!

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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> Those bastards working in the 6
> 
> They should eat sh&t, a bunch of idiot. Maybe WS13 also smoke, who knows? Every time I see our fellow members boast how advanced our engine is, my heart is bleeding.
> 
> I think no
> 
> Long way to go.
> 
> 贵发到底行不行啊？这个东西为什么不放在南面搞？比如成发？
> 
> The only turbo fan engine being successful until now is WS10 series, others are unknown.
> 
> @Sinopakfriend maybr we shall finance PAF to get EJ200 for JF17, so that we can study it.
> 
> For God sake, do something. Maybe WS15 down-scale version is more realistic.


FGS , Engines like M-88 , EJ-200 are made for twin engine fighters. Most of the times , engines of twin engine fighters have smaller radius overall compared to normal single engine fighter's engines like WS-13 , WS-10 , RD-93. EJ200 cant fit into thunder due to its wayy smaller diameter. It will require major airframe modification which in turn will turn thunder into flying crap. BTW WS-15 is the only chinese engine which is mature and world class. Rest all need time.



wanglaokan said:


> Maybe WS13 also smoke, who knows? Every time I see our fellow members boast how advanced our engine is, my heart is bleeding.


Only chinese engine which is world class and mature is WS-15 , It has no match in china. Rest all need time. WS-15's new core made in 2006 even amazed russia. WS-13 isnt smoky i guess

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## WarFariX

wanglaokan said:


> If I were 611, I will go for single engine WS15 solution(same as F35). 611 has no chance to win unless they can use single engine design. Cause the current dual engine solution of 601 has been very matured.
> 
> The thrust of WS15 is 18 tons. Let say if the future we can have advanced medium thrust engine with 10 tons thrust, then 2 of it will produce 20 tons of thrust. But we have to count in the weight factors and the space we have to waste for dual engine compared with single engine! With the breakthrough of WS15 engine, single engine solution for onboard stealthy fighter will be plausible!
> 
> Per strategic and competitive consideration, I think we shall give then navy contract to SAC 601. But I feel goosebump about the possible single engine solution of 611.
> 
> To be honest, J20 is the real trump card. It's not easy to design a navy version 5gen easily outclass F35C.
> 
> That's why I always say the engine development must come years ahead of the design of a fighter jet!
> 
> I hope AVIC can come up with a down-scale version of WS15 with 12 tons of thrust! Then 601's FC31 will be a huge success.
> 
> Lord bless China.
> 
> Or we can also also apply the magnitude blade technology innovation on the development of new Medium thrust turbofan engine.
> 
> We need a medium thrust engine with 12:1 thrust to weight ratio.
> 
> I will be comparatively safe to operate on the high sea with dual engine fighter.
> 
> I give my judgement: 601 will win the contract.
> 
> 611 has to concentrate in churn out J20 and J10c/d. No time to spare on medium weight stealthy fighter further.


611 still has enough time...they performed the j20 program in a timespan of 8 years and now its serving. 3rd and 4th carrier still have many years to become operational. If 611 exposes there program now and if it wins the bid , then i can safely assume that j31 has lost all grounds... BTW what is magnitude blade tech?


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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> I highly doubt so. Despite an export item. There is retain some secrecy which will reserve for friendly nation only.


how do you define friendly? and also FC-31 is not J-20, aiming international market was one of its initial objectives, and the chances of it entering PLAAF are very thin````



wanglaokan said:


> Those bastards working in the 6
> 
> They should eat sh&t, a bunch of idiot. Maybe WS13 also smoke, who knows? Every time I see our fellow members boast how advanced our engine is, my heart is bleeding.
> 
> I think no
> 
> Long way to go.
> 
> 贵发到底行不行啊？这个东西为什么不放在南面搞？比如成发？
> 
> The only turbo fan engine being successful until now is WS10 series, others are unknown.
> 
> @Sinopakfriend maybr we shall finance PAF to get EJ200 for JF17, so that we can study it.
> 
> For God sake, do something. Maybe WS15 down-scale version is more realistic.


well 'they' have met few Europeans `````` who knows what they were talking about```

as far as I know, there are cooperations to some extend with Western countries when this project was started````win-win cooperations````CATIA···Rooster```Oops have I said too much?



Sinopakfriend said:


> Patience, Patience, my brother.
> 
> However, *CAC has been working on single engine stealth fighter* for some time now and some PAC involvement was also noted.. could be an evolution of J10 or a new redical design.
> 
> You take care!


No` PLAAF has no plan for single engine stealth fighter`````Yes` if you are talking about some export versions (but not strickly 5th gen)````

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## Deino



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## Deino

Another hint for a PLANAF involvement or interest ???






It's the same model as shown in February ! 









Do we know where this model is on display and what was this TV-report on ?

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> A nice old picture of FC-31 V1



Ähhhmmm since when is V1 a delta-canard?? 

That is a fan-made what-if Photoshop.

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## grey boy 2

Oh my bad, someone sent me in a email, haven't really checking on it since its said a V1

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Oh my bad, someone sent me in a email, haven't really checking on it since its said a V1



Never mind ... Looks like a mini-J-20


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## 星海军事



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## grey boy 2



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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


>


Is this a model or real one?


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## lcloo

It is a model for testing radar reflections from various angles, to verify the stealth design of J31.

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## Deino

Preparing for Paris 2017: But why again the same completely wrong model of 31001 !??

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Preparing for Paris 2017: But why again the same completely wrong model of 31001 !??
> 
> View attachment 404554


Why you get so work up over a model?

They are just for public display.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Why you get so work up over a model?
> 
> They are just for public display.




If You don't care of or on details it explains a lot !

Anyway IMO if SAC/AVIC want to sell that bird to foreign customers and even more if they will be taken seriously by the foreign media and potential customers they should at least care about being correct. That does not mean it has to be a 1 on 1 replica showing all details but do You think anyone would buy an €Fighter when the Paris Airshow model would look like this !??  

Even if surely not the most important thing, since real performance is more important, but since SAC/AVIC has no real bird to show - as such no performance to demonstrate - they need to do a better marketing. That's the way the West works. (not that I like this)

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## grey boy 2

During the Paris Air Show, *Li Yuhai, AVIC's deputy general manager* in charge of military aircraft saying *FC-31 "level of Stealthy, high agility, supersonic cruise capability, although it is still a pre-research product but the technical maturity has been high. Whether it is stand-alone costs, or full life costs that no other similar class of competitors can match*
*



*
http://weibo.com/1499104401/F8GdrE4...4401_profile&wvr=6&mod=weibotime&type=comment

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> During the Paris Air Show, *Li Yuhai, AVIC's deputy general manager* in charge of military aircraft saying *FC-31 "level of Stealthy, high agility, supersonic cruise capability, although it is still a pre-research product but the technical maturity has been high. Whether it is stand-alone costs, or full life costs that no other similar class of competitors can match*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> http://weibo.com/1499104401/F8GdrE4...4401_profile&wvr=6&mod=weibotime&type=comment


@Deino here v2 model is displayed :-/


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## Beast

Deino said:


> If You don't care of or on details it explains a lot !
> 
> Anyway IMO if SAC/AVIC want to sell that bird to foreign customers and even more if they will be taken seriously by the foreign media and potential customers they should at least care about being correct. That does not mean it has to be a 1 on 1 replica showing all details but do You think anyone would buy an €Fighter when the Paris Airshow model would look like this !??
> 
> Even if surely not the most important thing, since real performance is more important, but since SAC/AVIC has no real bird to show - as such no performance to demonstrate - they need to do a better marketing. That's the way the West works. (not that I like this)
> 
> View attachment 404628


It does not mean anything.. Will a less accurate model during airshow mean the final product is less than satisfactory? Will a less accurate model mean the designer and technician behind the project more slag and less committed? A model is just a toy and presentation for public. It just trying to give a rough guide and nothing else. As I say China is more concern about one to one explanation and a more personal marketing rather than toy selling. Nothing will change the way China conduct military business. China will always bring the most value and affordable defense product to customers. End of the day, that is only your personal opinion. We are talking about defense and not model making.

Will a more accurate model means the designer and technician behind the project will never slag and flawless product? Model display has little bearing in the final say of those chief of defense decision. In fact what the product representative speaks and convey to the defense chief is far more important than accurate model.

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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> @Deino here v2 model is displayed :-/




Not really ... and even less the alleged V3. 
BY the way, that link is dead.




Beast said:


> It does not mean anything.. Will a less accurate model during airshow mean the final product is less than satisfactory? Will a less accurate model mean the designer and technician behind the project more slag and less committed? A model is just a toy and presentation for public. It just trying to give a rough guide and nothing else. As I say China is more concern about one to one explanation and a more personal marketing rather than toy selling. Nothing will change the way China conduct military business. China will always bring the most value and affordable defense product to customers. End of the day, that is only your personal opinion. We are talking about defense and not model making.
> 
> Will a more accurate model means the designer and technician behind the project will never slag and flawless product? Model display has little bearing in the final say of those chief of defense decision. In fact what the product representative speaks and convey to the defense chief is far more important than accurate model.




Agreed and not agreed ! Indeed it does not mean anything but also everything: Surely a less accurate model will have no connection to the true qualities and performances of the real bird but I contradict Your statement "A model is just a toy and presentation for public". Quite to the contrary: a model at an international sales show - and that's all Paris is and all SAC/AVIC needs - *SALES* ! - it is the ticket to sales.

You cannot try to play this game on the international scene by not playing by its rules. And even if You maybe - like me - do not like to accept it: advertisement & publicity is the key to get attention.

So even if I agree with You in general, what will anyone think if he sees this "less accurate" (IMO still a compliment) model? It's a lousy PR-stunt, bad publicity and tells all public visitors this company is taking its efforts to sell that type not seriously. Therefore You and many others here can't complain that the image in the West of Chinese products is low.

I have to admit that it is a strange, wrong and maybe even shameful Western habit - the current US president plays this game quite well - that opinion, feelings and imagination is more worth than facts and performance ... but it is so. and if SAC/ AVIC wants to play that game they need to take care of these rules.

But again just my 2 cents.
Deino

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Not really ... and even less the alleged V3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed and not agreed ! Indeed it does not mean anything but also everything: Surely a less accurate model will have no connection to the true qualities and performances of the real bird but I contradict Your statement "A model is just a toy and presentation for public". Quite to the contrary: a model at an international sales show - and that's all Paris is and all SAC/AVIC needs - *SALES* ! - it is the ticket to sales.
> 
> You cannot try to play this game on the international scene by not playing by its rules. And even if You maybe - like me - do not like to accept it: advertisement & publicity is the key to get attention.
> 
> So even if I agree with You in general, what will anyone think if he sees this "less accurate" (IMO still a compliment) model? It's a lousy PR-stunt, bad publicity and tells all public visitors this company is taking its efforts to sell that type not seriously. Therefore You and many others here can't complain that the image in the West of Chinese products is low.
> 
> I have to admit that it is a strange, wrong and maybe even shameful Western habit - the current US president plays this game quite well - that opinion, feelings and imagination is more worth than facts and performance ... but it is so. and if SAC/ AVIC wants to play that game they need to take care of these rules.
> 
> But again just my 2 cents.
> Deino


What rules? The rules are just an opinion set by you. It just like saying democracy is the only solution for PRC which has proven many wrongs for decades until now.

I agree the airshow is a place for publicity. But China has different view on selling product in airshow. I seriously disagree a more accurate model is one of the criteria. I fully agree a very professional speech introduction for product is one of the key and I am sure AVIC is very well prepare in this area in disclosing and introducing the product timeline and capabilities through their professional representative.

I dont see AVIC has alot of problem selling their products. In fact , many of their sales are undisclosed but that does not deter their sales. For example , AVIC UCAV are sold to more than a dozen countries and I dont see they have any stumbling block becos of a less accurate model or whatever.

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## Deino

You simply always WANT to disagree only to DISAGREE, don't You.

Maybe You missed it again I already noted, it is only an opinion in the West and I also noted that I don't like this concept. Therefore You can again try to bash me as much as You want; I agree with You.

Point is simply: I try to give You an explanation, why the West still rates Chinese products so low and this is a reason and if You think the current sales of Chinese products to in the majority low-level third world countries (Myanmar, Sudan, Nigeria, ...) is fine for You, then it's fine. I however - especially as a sales-director of AVIC - would not be satisfied with this unless I get a breakthrough with a major player.

So I neither like this rule nor do I play in that liga ... but then do not always complain.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> You simply always WANT to disagree only to DISAGREE, don't You.
> 
> Maybe You missed it again I already noted, it is only an opinion in the West and I also noted that I don't like this concept. Therefore You can again try to bash me as much as You want; I agree with You.
> 
> Point is simply: I try to give You an explanation, why the West still rates Chinese products so low and this is a reason and if You think the current sales of Chinese products to in the majority low-level third world countries (Myanmar, Sudan, Nigeria, ...) is fine for You, then it's fine. I however - especially as a sales-director of AVIC - would not be satisfied with this unless I get a breakthrough with a major player.
> 
> So I neither like this rule nor do I play in that liga ... but then do not always complain.


China missing the boat of defense sales to western or higher tier countries has nothing to do with quality or marketing but more to politic. Do I need to remind you of this? You mean NATO countries are able to buy freely of any countries of highly datalink network weapon like AWACS or air defense system? You think Germany can buy China weapon? You last point of trying to misled reader of China failing to get a major buyer of rich countries due to bad marketing, quality and sophistication are simply a joke. 


What is wrong with China for securing customer like Myanmar and Nigeria? Are you prejudice or simply look down on these countries?

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## Deino

Arguing with You is plain impossible ! Dude, ... I agree with You. So no need to feel offended, no need for twisting words and even more no need for bashing back.

We really need an ignorer-function in this forum.


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## HannibalBarca

Deino said:


> Arguing with You is plain impossible ! Dude, ... I agree with You. So no need to feel offended, no need for twisting words and even more no need for bashing back.
> 
> We really need an ignorer-function in this forum.


Don't worry he does it in every thread when it come to that... and most of time he resorts to insults... ( and by the power of God... he's till around with his -22... But maybe his 2011is goodluck charm or...)

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Arguing with You is plain impossible ! Dude, ... I agree with You. So no need to feel offended, no need for twisting words and even more no need for bashing back.
> 
> We really need an ignorer-function in this forum.


Please argue point to point Instead of personal attack. I guess a moderator shall be better? Did I say anything wrong of by challenging a NATO countries can freely buy non NATO weapon to try Intergrate into their system? Does it prove this has anything to do with quality,marketing and quality?

Looks like you run out of arguement and try to divert from your inability by posting non relevant answer.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Please argue point to point Instead of personal attack. I guess a moderator shall be better? Did I say anything wrong of by challenging a NATO countries can freely buy non NATO weapon to try Intergrate into their system? Does it prove this has anything to do with quality,marketing and quality?
> 
> Looks like you run out of arguement and try to divert from your inability by posting non relevant answer.




NATO or non-NATO is not even an argument in that discussion and once again You try to divert this topic ... The problem is only, if I make a list of arguments and answer one by another it will be more than one argument that was already too much for You to understand if I remind You on the Y-20/WS-18-discussion yesterday.


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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Not really ... and even less the alleged V3.
> BY the way, that link is dead.


Its working fine for me, there's a video attached there
http://weibo.com/1499104401/F8GdrE4...4401_profile&wvr=6&mod=weibotime&type=comment

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## Beast

Deino said:


> NATO or non-NATO is not even an argument in that discussion and once again You try to divert this topic ... The problem is only, if I make a list of arguments and answer one by another it will be more than one argument that was already too much for You to understand if I remind You on the Y-20/WS-18-discussion yesterday.


Why do u think it not a discussion? As if turkey is not pressurize not to buy China HQ-9 SAM system. The amount of political pressure and backlash is for all to see. No NATO countries are allowed to buy China weapon system even the weapon is gold. The biased and hatre by west against China is widespread.

Same as FC-31 fighter are not allowed to be serve in NATO service.

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## Hassan Guy

China launched the global marketing of its FC-31 stealth fighter jet that costs about US$70 million, about half the price of the Lockheed Martin F-35, at Paris Air Show 2017.

"We expect that the plane's price will be around $70 million, about half that of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II from the US, which is the only fifth-generation fighter jet available on the market from the US, which only sells it to allies." Fu Qianshao, an aircraft expert with the PLA Air Force was quoted as saying by China Daily Tuesday.

Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) has displayed a model of the FC-31 on display at the 52nd International Paris Air Show, held at at Paris-Le Bourget Airport.

China decided to tap the well-advanced countries’ military aircraft market with the domestically developed FC-31 stealth fighter jet, the plane's chief designer Lin Peng of AVIC's subsidiary Shenyang Aircraft Design and Research Institute said.

“The FC-31 has received a lot of attention from potential foreign buyers.” he said Monday. This has been the first time the aircraft firm brought its latest stealth fighter jet to a Western air show and the second time for the FC-31 to be shown at a foreign exhibition. The first was at the 14th Dubai Airshow in the United Arab Emirates in November 2015.

"We will strive to use the fifth-generation combat plane to seize some share in the military aircraft market of developed nations," Lin said.

FC-31's appearance in Paris is intended to showoff China's capabilities in the research and development of advanced military aircraft.

The intention is to enable major buyers to know more about the plane so they can communicate "in-depth" with AVIC about the fighter jet,

Though the FC-31 is not yet in production, the firm believes that the external features of the plane is likely to generate interest that could lead to sales.

The air show is also a suitable occasion for the Chinese stealth fighter jet to compete with its counterparts, the designer added.

The FC-31 was unveiled in October 2012 as a twin-engine, radar-evading fighter jet. At that time, the first prototype had made its maiden flight, becoming the country's second fifth-generation fighter jet following the J-20, which made its first flight in January 2011. The People's Liberation Army Air Force has begun to receive deliveries of the J-20.

Lin said the FC-31 features high survivability, a low radar signature, supreme electronic countermeasures, high information capacity, situation awareness and beyond-visual-range combat capability.

The aircraft has a large weapon bay and several external hard points that are capable of carrying Chinese-or foreign-made air-to-air missiles and air-to-surface weapons, he said.

Specifications from AVIC show the FC-31 has a maximum takeoff weight of 25 metric tons, a combat range of 1,200 km and a top speed of Mach 1.8, or 2,205 kilometers per hour. It can carry 8 metric tons of weapons and has a designed service life of up to 30 years.

Li Yuhai, deputy general manager of AVIC, said earlier that AVIC plans to use the FC-31 to "put an end to some nations' monopolies on the fifth-generation fighter jet" and this plane "is able to compete with any other aircraft of its kind".
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/19..._of_US_F_35__Paris_Air_Show_2017#.WUm5dRN95fQ

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## Beast

AVIC will concentrate more of FC-31 effort in Middle East or South America market.

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## grey boy 2



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## 帅的一匹

It is very clear that V2 has got end users, probably PLAN/PLAAF. So SAC isn't in a hurry to promote V2, instead display V1 to walk it through. And the timing of exporting stealthy fighter is not matured yet, we need to have a deep consideration about it. These stealthy fighter only goes to trusted ally or friends.

The sales strategy has changed from aggressive to moderate.

I'm waiting for PAF placing orders.

J31 is a perfect design, I mean serious.

There is a unwritten rule in China: once you received purchasing orders from the army, you won't be able to promote it without army's permission. It's been classified, that's a good sign for me. If any close ally want it, we will talk in house.

And very clear that the only trusted ally is Pakistan. If PLAN/PLAAF placing orders, the it takes many years to fulfill it.

As to Saudi, I still have a question mark on it.

@The SC Rumor said Saudi had invested 1 billions USD in FC31. Still not confirmed.

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## The SC

wanglaokan said:


> It is very clear that V2 has got end users, probably PLAN/PLAAF. So SAC isn't in a hurry to promote V2, instead display V1 to walk it through. And the timing of exporting stealthy fighter is not matured yet, we need to have a deep consideration about it. These stealthy fighter only goes to trusted ally or friends.
> 
> The sales strategy has changed from aggressive to moderate.
> 
> I'm waiting for PAF placing orders.
> 
> J31 is a perfect design, I mean serious.
> 
> There is a unwritten rule in China: once you received purchasing orders from the army, you won't be able to promote it without army's permission. It's been classified, that's a good sign for me. If any close ally want it, we will talk in house.
> 
> And very clear that the only trusted ally is Pakistan. If PLAN/PLAAF placing orders, the it takes many years to fulfill it.
> 
> As to Saudi, I still have a question mark on it.
> 
> @The SC Rumor said Saudi had invested 1 billions USD in FC31. Still not confirmed.


Not confirmed, but it is a possibility, since the UAE signed a deal with Russia to develop a light weight 5th generation stealth fighter, which indicate GCC's looking (also) east for their 5th generation fighters..


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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> AVIC will concentrate more of FC-31 effort in Middle East or South America market.


no, Europe and some other places```surely, Pakistan will have all the priority````anyway`I know they (European and SAC) have walked and talked about this````but whether they can lower down their policial and "dignity" agenda its all up to them```

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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> no, Europe and some other places```surely, Pakistan will have all the priority````anyway`I know they (European and SAC) have walked and talked about this````but whether they can lower down their policial and "dignity" agenda its all up to them```


Wat those European can bring on the table for exchange?



The SC said:


> Not confirmed, but it is a possibility, since the UAE signed a deal with Russia to develop a light weight 5th generation stealth fighter, which indicate GCC's looking (also) east for their 5th generation fighters..


Sometimes I just wonder why Saudi trust China?

Currently PAF shoot down Iran's UAV has shown its attitude.

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## The SC

wanglaokan said:


> Sometimes I just wonder why Saudi trust China?


There are some deep strategic interests shared by the two.. Oil supply is at the forefront as well as other commercial economic, industrial. military, scientific and cultural links, JVs and deals..It is also due to the central role that KSA plays in the Arab Muslim world which can open many doors to China in the region and worldwide.. think always of a win-win relationship, it just suites both and makes them trust each other for the sake of common interests.. the partnership might seem new, but the two cultures have had strategic relationships for millennia..

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## rcrmj

wanglaokan said:


> *Wat those European can bring on the table for exchange?*
> 
> 
> Sometimes I just wonder why Saudi trust China?
> 
> Currently PAF shoot down Iran's UAV has shown its attitude.


still have some we need to learn, especially like designing software, Optical, metallurgy and precision engineering stuff. even the States cant touch them in these fields`````

what China and U.S good at is complex system engineering, system integration, advanced structural desgin and long term project management`````the latter doesnt sound very tech savvy does it?  ```however, thats how it makes us the only two countries that can develop state-of-art 5th gen fighter jets, turbofan engines, warships, submarines, ACs, tanks and space shuttles on our own```

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## 帅的一匹

What I feel proud is China can produce every single bit of J20 on our own! Only China is doing it!

USA outsource many sub-system of F35 to foreign partners.

One major advantage of outsourcing is the production speed will be faster than doing all the things in house alone. The shortcoming is the industrial capability of certain fields will shrink.

One major advantage of buying Chinese stealthy fighter is you only need to deal with China for all the maintenance and parts supplies! Sanction free and no strings attached.

Only China can do it!

I'm expecting FC31 of hot sale.

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## Shotgunner51

wanglaokan said:


> What I feel proud is China can produce every single bit of J20 on our own! Only China is doing it!
> 
> USA outsource many sub-system of F35 to foreign partners.
> 
> One major advantage of outsourcing is the production speed will be faster than doing all the things in house alone. The shortcoming is the industrial capability of certain fields will shrink.
> 
> One major advantage of buying Chinese stealthy fighter is you only need to deal with China for all the maintenance and parts supplies! Sanction free and no strings attached.
> 
> Only China can do it!
> 
> I'm expecting FC31 of hot sale.


The CoCom, Wassenaar Arrangement, are blessings! From metallurgy (e.g. SC superalloy) to machine tools (e.g. CNC), from chemicals (& composites, ceramics) to semiconductors, China has to develop a full spectrum of all foundation industries. It takes time to build a full-fledged industrial complex but it's worth the efforts.

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## 帅的一匹

Shotgunner51 said:


> The Wassenaar Arrangement is a blessing. From metallurgy (e.g. SC superalloy) to machine tools (e.g. CNC), from chemicals to semiconductors, China has to develop a full spectrum of all foundation industries.


We are going to be S P. I don't wanna say those two words.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> ...
> I'm expecting FC31 of hot sale.



To admit I wish but right now I'm still sceptical: Without a product being finished, tested and proved no Air Force will take the risk of being the launch customer especially if the PLA will not openly commit to that type.

Most will wait ... and even for 70 Mio $ this thing is still not cheap as long as it is not mature.

Anyway ... I wish all the best.
Deino


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> To admit I wish but right now I'm still sceptical: Without a product being finished, tested and proved no Air Force will take the risk of being the launch customer especially if the PLA will not openly commit to that type.
> 
> Most will wait ... and even for 70 Mio $ this thing is still not cheap as long as it is not mature.
> 
> Anyway ... I wish all the best.
> Deino


F35 is not battle proven as well. And PLAN will be the launch customer.

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## dy1022

wanglaokan said:


> We are going to be S P. I don't wanna say those two words.






Real one, not the fake delusional 2012 one!

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> F35 is not battle proven as well. And PLAN will be the launch customer.




Battle proven is not the point. Being mature, tested and certified and here anyone must agree that the F-35 is more matured, tested and certified - alone with more than 100 built and operational - than the FC-31 with a demonstrator and a modified prototype just being tested.

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## maximuswarrior

wanglaokan said:


> It is very clear that V2 has got end users, probably PLAN/PLAAF. So SAC isn't in a hurry to promote V2, instead display V1 to walk it through. And the timing of exporting stealthy fighter is not matured yet, we need to have a deep consideration about it. These stealthy fighter only goes to trusted ally or friends.
> 
> The sales strategy has changed from aggressive to moderate.
> 
> I'm waiting for PAF placing orders.
> 
> J31 is a perfect design, I mean serious.
> 
> There is a unwritten rule in China: once you received purchasing orders from the army, you won't be able to promote it without army's permission. It's been classified, that's a good sign for me. If any close ally want it, we will talk in house.
> 
> And very clear that the only trusted ally is Pakistan. If PLAN/PLAAF placing orders, the it takes many years to fulfill it.
> 
> As to Saudi, I still have a question mark on it.
> 
> @The SC Rumor said Saudi had invested 1 billions USD in FC31. Still not confirmed.



There is no doubt in my mind that PAF will probably be the first customer of FC-31. It is tailor made for PAF.

The FC-31 will be sold to South American, African and Middle Eastern countries. There are no other viable 5th gen alternatives at this price range.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Not really ... and even less the alleged V3.
> BY the way, that link is dead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed and not agreed ! Indeed it does not mean anything but also everything: Surely a less accurate model will have no connection to the true qualities and performances of the real bird but I contradict Your statement "A model is just a toy and presentation for public". Quite to the contrary: a model at an international sales show - and that's all Paris is and all SAC/AVIC needs - *SALES* ! - it is the ticket to sales.
> 
> You cannot try to play this game on the international scene by not playing by its rules. And even if You maybe - like me - do not like to accept it: advertisement & publicity is the key to get attention.
> 
> So even if I agree with You in general, what will anyone think if he sees this "less accurate" (IMO still a compliment) model? It's a lousy PR-stunt, bad publicity and tells all public visitors this company is taking its efforts to sell that type not seriously. Therefore You and many others here can't complain that the image in the West of Chinese products is low.
> 
> I have to admit that it is a strange, wrong and maybe even shameful Western habit - the current US president plays this game quite well - that opinion, feelings and imagination is more worth than facts and performance ... but it is so. and if SAC/ AVIC wants to play that game they need to take care of these rules.
> 
> But again just my 2 cents.
> Deino


I told you before that pt-3 aka v2 will be displayed. There is no v3 at the moment


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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> I told you before that pt-3 aka v2 will be displayed. There is no v3 at the moment




But that is not pt-3 aka V2. Even on that model it is clearly '31001' written, which makes it more or less to a stupid V1. What is even more surprising since they already had several model of the revised prototype on show (albeit always much larger).

As such the IMO most likely explanation is that SAC/AVIC outsourced the model-making to 3rd party contractors, who simply did not care or due to certain security measures this model is not allowed to given certain detailed more clearly (again strange, since V2 was already on display).

Anyway ... let's leave that stupid model aside and show us the real deal !

Deino

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## rcrmj

maximuswarrior said:


> There is no doubt in my mind that PAF will probably be the first customer of FC-31. It is tailor made for PAF.
> 
> The FC-31 will be sold to South American, African and Middle Eastern countries. There are no other viable 5th gen alternatives at this price range.


its not only about the price```there are only two countries in this world can develop a true 5th gen fighter, thats China and U.S````forget about those PPTs made by Turkey, S.K, India or toys by Japan,```even though Japan and S.K is good at some civilian techs like semi-conductor, material and optical industries, but state-of-art defense aviation industry is way beyond their reach``



Deino said:


> To admit I wish but right now I'm still sceptical: Without a product being finished, tested and proved no Air Force will take the risk of being the launch customer especially if the PLA will not openly commit to that type.
> 
> Most will wait ... and even for 70 Mio $ this thing is still not cheap as long as it is not mature.
> 
> Anyway ... I wish all the best.
> Deino


the background of this project was quite complicated, had various purposes and aims`````some were obviouse, some were bizarre, but this project is very likely to be carried on, maybe it will evolve into a new project```who knows```

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## Deino

rcrmj said:


> ...
> the background of this project was quite complicated, had various purposes and aims`````some were obviouse, some were bizarre, but this project is very likely to be carried on, maybe it will evolve into a new project```who knows```




More, more, tell us more please !!!

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## rcrmj

Deino said:


> More, more, tell us more please !!!


time will tell, I have hinted some before``````lots of possibilities``````
those people wont go on public with stuffs that are 'uncertain'````we are very proud of our information security systems `````

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> But that is not pt-3 aka V2. Even on that model it is clearly '31001' written, which makes it more or less to a stupid V1. What is even more surprising since they already had several model of the revised prototype on show (albeit always much larger).
> 
> As such the IMO most likely explanation is that SAC/AVIC outsourced the model-making to 3rd party contractors, who simply did not care or due to certain security measures this model is not allowed to given certain detailed more clearly (again strange, since V2 was already on display).
> 
> Anyway ... let's leave that stupid model aside and show us the real deal !
> 
> Deino


I dunno why but i get a feeling after watching AVIC stall video on demo of fc31 paris air show 2017 that this model has got to do something in reality , the presenter was seen pointing at different points on the model while describing the bird to people around.


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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> I dunno why but i get a feeling after watching AVIC stall video on demo of fc31 paris air show 2017 that this model has got to do something in reality , the presenter was seen pointing at different points on the model while describing the bird to people around.




I don't think You should over-interpret this: IMO they are explaining interested people why it is different to the real V2 and why they were making a model that is labelled '31001' and so obviously wrong in so many details.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Battle proven is not the point. Being mature, tested and certified and here anyone must agree that the F-35 is more matured, tested and certified - alone with more than 100 built and operational - than the FC-31 with a demonstrator and a modified prototype just being tested.



F-35 using the complicated vertical thrust vector engine complicate the whole process and result in many years of delay. There is no doubt many issue regarding the complicated mechanism reliability.

While FC-31 is using a conventional two engine layout without any complicated thrust vector and complex mechanism. It is a sure to work plan. Its induction will no doubt be much faster especially using many highly tested features from J-20. I highly doubt F-35 is more matured. Its reliability regarding a highly novice thrust vector mechanism is yet to prove itself.

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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> F-35 using the complicated vertical thrust vector engine complicate the whole process and result in many years of delay. There is no doubt many issue regarding the complicated mechanism reliability.
> 
> While FC-31 is using a conventional two engine layout without any complicated thrust vector and complex mechanism. It is a sure to work plan. Its induction will no doubt be much faster especially using many highly tested features from J-20. I highly doubt F-35 is more matured. Its reliability regarding a highly novice thrust vector mechanism is yet to prove itself.



FC-31 will be using a lot of J-20 tech - stealth coatings, radar and other electronics will be modified from what was developed for J-20. Only thing that really will be new will be the engine but even that would have been given a head-start by the engine advances that China has made with the J-20's WS-15 engine.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> F-35 using the complicated vertical thrust vector engine complicate the whole process and result in many years of delay. There is no doubt many issue regarding the complicated mechanism reliability.
> 
> While FC-31 is using a conventional two engine layout without any complicated thrust vector and complex mechanism. It is a sure to work plan. Its induction will no doubt be much faster especially using many highly tested features from J-20. I highly doubt F-35 is more matured. Its reliability regarding a highly novice thrust vector mechanism is yet to prove itself.




Funny as usual !
All Your claims can be summarised by: Will, maybe, eventually for the FC-31 while in return You are (indeed correctly) noting to delays once at a comparable time for the F-35.
BY the way, not all F-35s - in fact so far a minority - are using this over-complicated and trouble-prone engine layout ... and also by the way the FC-31 is still flying with a dated interim engine (or do You believe these claims it is already using a 100kN miniaturised-WS-15 ??).

But in the end You still have now one type in production since 2011 (the date the J-20 had its maiden flight), is operational (at least limited) and deployed by 8 (USA, Australia, GB, Netherlands, Israel, Italy, Japan and Norway) Air Forces with more than 100 delivered with a type that is just available in two different examples that have flown a few hours for a few years or months?

So I wish that type all the best even if I'm sure You will still bash me again as anti-China or an ignorant Western fan-boy but the facts speak for themselves.

Deino

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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> *While FC-31 is using a conventional two engine layout without any complicated thrust vector and complex mechanism*. It is a sure to work plan. Its induction will no doubt be much faster especially using many highly tested features from J-20. I highly doubt F-35 is more matured. Its reliability regarding a highly novice thrust vector mechanism is yet to prove itself.


you sure about this```?

FC-31 V1 is no more than a demonstrator, and V2 is a bit closer to be a real prototype```there are alot more you dont know about this project, but it is very safe to say that F-35 is far more mature than FC-31. I mean really, a serving platform is less mature than an initial prototype`?

and I know your theory is that J-20 is already in service, so *"all the technologies can be borrowed from it, hence make FC project faster and mature than F-35"?*````please dude, have a common sense, you can also apply this logic to F-22 on F-35 too dont you?````if anything, U.S has better fundation and technological readiness of 5th gen fighter than China at any circumstance at the time being! ```with FC project, they havent tested anything serious yet, like radar, weapon and flying characteristic charts, how can it be more mature than a platform that has been flown for over thousands of hours???

and lastly I have to tell you again, jet fighter is not a leggo toy that you build just by putting 'borrowed' bits and bots together understand? dont let the enthusiasm and nationalism to blind you`````



UKBengali said:


> FC-31 will be using a lot of J-20 tech - stealth coatings, radar and other electronics will be modified from what was developed for J-20. Only thing that really will be new will be the engine but even that would have been given a head-start by the engine advances that China has made with the J-20's WS-15 engine.


there are lot lot lot more works need to be done for this project to even come close to the maturity of current stage J-20, which btw is not the ideal condition of J-20`````for FC project, engine is just one part of many, and all equally important

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## Oldman1

Beast said:


> F-35 using the complicated vertical thrust vector engine complicate the whole process and result in many years of delay. There is no doubt many issue regarding the complicated mechanism reliability.
> 
> While FC-31 is using a conventional two engine layout without any complicated thrust vector and complex mechanism. It is a sure to work plan. Its induction will no doubt be much faster especially using many highly tested features from J-20. I highly doubt F-35 is more matured. Its reliability regarding a highly novice thrust vector mechanism is yet to prove itself.



The F-35B actually works even if it was complex and delayed but other variants don't rely this type of format to fly. And F-35B was push to the limits. Another thing is the advantage over the FC-31 is by taking off from amphibious ships. I'm sure China are trying to develop one. Which means developing a complex engine system to do something similar.


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## UKBengali

rcrmj said:


> you sure about this```?
> 
> FC-31 V1 is no more than a demonstrator, and V2 is a bit closer to be a real prototype```there are alot more you dont know about this project, but it is very safe to say that F-35 is far more mature than FC-31. I mean really, a serving platform is less mature than an initial prototype`?
> 
> and I know your theory is that J-20 is already in service, so *"all the technologies can be borrowed from it, hence make FC project faster and mature than F-35"?*````please dude, have a common sense, you can also apply this logic to F-22 on F-35 too dont you?````if anything, U.S has better fundation and technological readiness of 5th gen fighter than China at any circumstance at the time being! ```with FC project, they havent tested anything serious yet, like radar, weapon and flying characteristic charts, how can it be more mature than a platform that has been flown for over thousands of hours???
> 
> and lastly I have to tell you again, jet fighter is not a leggo toy that you build just by putting 'borrowed' bits and bots together understand? dont let the enthusiasm and nationalism to blind you`````




With all due respect you are not using simple logic. Analogy with F-22 and F-35 is incorrect as they are wildly different types of fighter and the US did not really need to induct F-35 quickly as it was the sole operator of nearly 200 F-22s.

Important components like radar, other avionics and stealth coatings can be modified to work with the J-31. Think of it like an already tested computer program and then you need to modify it for another scenario. It is a lot quicker to do this than build another program from scratch. Also with the knowledge gained from building the J-20s 5th generation engine, a lot of know-how will have been gained in creating 5th generation engines that can be applied to J-31.

Yes, a lot of work still needs to be done with J-31 to make it operational but the experience gained from J-20 will make it less painful and time-consuming.


@Beast

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## Deino

UKBengali said:


> ...
> Yes, a lot of work still needs to be done with J-31 to make it operational but the experience gained from J-20 will make it less painful and time-consuming.




So what's Your estimation if everything goes fine ?


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## UKBengali

Deino said:


> So what's Your estimation if everything goes fine ?



5 years from now as long as enough resources are made available.

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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> 5 years from now as long as enough resources are made available.


I am abit more optimistic. 3-4 years but as I say a lot will depend on investor fund. If they pump in few billions and place a order of more than 50. I am sure the project will move very fast.

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## Akasa

There are rumors that the FC-31 program has been taken over by Yang Wei's team (from CAC?). Could anybody corroborate this?

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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> There are rumors that the FC-31 program has been taken over by Yang Wei's team (from CAC?). Could anybody corroborate this?


Maybe, I've heard it once.


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Maybe, I've heard it once.


It will be a blow to shenyang SAIC chief designer Sun Cong if true.

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## Cyberian

So CAC will finally give the necessary boost to the J-31 project it had been waiting for since 2011?


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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> It will be a blow to shenyang SAIC chief designer Sun Cong if true.



That would be the biggest mistake of all time as then China will only have one great fighter design company.

It would be better for some of the top CAC designers to provide consultancy to SAC instead.

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## Deino

I saw this post of a recent update / rumour (via Huitong's blog: http://cnair.proboards.com/thread/343/error-regarding-fc-31-prototype?page=1&scrollTo=902) ... however that original source is dead sometimes:

http://www.weibo.com/3762825331/F5RtRfyu3?type=comment#_rnd1498495535770

In Summary

•The PLANAF has not decided which aircraft to choose from, but instead it will decide between "medium sized heavyweight fighters" ... sounds like some sort of fly-off !?
•There will be two contenders, one from 601 (FC-31 version) and one from 611 (no further info)
•Therefore there is by now no indication that the FC-31 already has received the contract (as also reported by various sources) but ...
•It seems that BOTH no. 601 (SAC) and 611 (CAC) institutes have received preliminary "funding" to develop their naval prototypes and none of them already got the final PLANAF contract.

Do You have more or does anyone know the original source?
Deino

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## grey boy 2

V2?






V1, V2 两架原型机一齐现身。

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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> V2?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V1, V2 两架原型机一齐现身。


Judging by wing tips, looks like v1 but a fresh new machine @Deino


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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> V1, V2 两架原型机一齐现身。




Where is V1 ??? That black bird on the left is never V1, IMO it is an already painted J-16.

Anyway an impressive image showing V2 standing side by side to 2x J-16s showing its small size.

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Where is V1 ??? That black bird on the left is never V1, IMO it is an already painted J-16.
> 
> Anyway an impressive image showing V2 standing side by side to 2x J-16s showing its small size.


I am talking about the J-31 standing alongside 2 J-16 and that looks like V1 new prototype due to the shape of wingtips


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## Deino

WarFariX said:


> I am talking about the J-31 standing alongside 2 J-16 and that looks like V1 new prototype due to the shape of wingtips



Yes and that's V2 (aka pt.3) ... it simply makes no sense to build another demonstrator configuration prototype, which si less optimised for stealth and flight performance. No way.
That yellow bird is simply V2 and we cannot see the cropped wings due to the low resolution of that image.

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## ChineseToTheBone

Deino said:


> That yellow bird is simply V2 and we cannot see the cropped wings due to the low resolution of that image.


Do you mean by light grey coloured rather? Only the flankers by its right here are yellow.

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## Deino

ChineseToTheBone said:


> Do you mean by light grey coloured rather? Only the flankers by its right here are yellow.




Yes and no ! To be correct, You are right, only the two Flankers are truly yellow, but we know the FC-31V2 is in fact neither yellow nor grey, it's more a mix of pale light-green and a "dirty" yellow. But again surely not the yellow primer we know from the Flankers or J-20.

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## 52051

According to some friends there, so far Airforce still have zero interests in this aircraft, and there is question whether this fighters could even obtain export lisences, even within AVIC, there are people who object export this fighters since it may contain sensitive techs.

Now AVIC try to persuade PLAN to order this fighter for their CVs, but it seems PLAN still want a open-competition between a navy version J-20 and this one, and the PLAN chief already made it clear that their future fighters on CV need to be capable of super-cruise, thats why in Paris airshow, the VP of AVIC bragged to the media that this FC-31 will be able to do super-cruise (initially they dont plan to add this feature to this fighter).

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> According to some friends there, so far Airforce still have zero interests in this aircraft, and there is question whether this fighters could even obtain export lisences, even within AVIC, there are people who object export this fighters since it may contain sensitive techs.
> 
> Now AVIC try to persuade PLAN to order this fighter for their CVs, but it seems PLAN still want a open-competition between a navy version J-20 and this one, and the PLAN chief already made it clear that their future fighters on CV need to be capable of super-cruise, thats why in Paris airshow, the VP of AVIC bragged to the media that this FC-1 will be able to do super-cruise (initially they dont plan to add this feature to this fighter).



Interesting; what is the status of the competition? Is SAC developing a naval variant, and if so, when could a flight be expected?


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## Oldman1

52051 said:


> According to some friends there, so far Airforce still have zero interests in this aircraft, and there is question whether this fighters could even obtain export lisences, even within AVIC, there are people who object export this fighters since it may contain sensitive techs.
> 
> Now AVIC try to persuade PLAN to order this fighter for their CVs, but it seems PLAN still want a open-competition between a navy version J-20 and this one, and the PLAN chief already made it clear that their future fighters on CV need to be capable of super-cruise, thats why in Paris airshow, the VP of AVIC bragged to the media that this FC-31 will be able to do super-cruise (initially they dont plan to add this feature to this fighter).



Surprised they have zero interest in the fighter. The reason for that?


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## 52051

SinoSoldier said:


> Interesting; what is the status of the competition? Is SAC developing a naval variant, and if so, when could a flight be expected?



I guess thats beyond my friend's grade to answer



Oldman1 said:


> Surprised they have zero interest in the fighter. The reason for that?



PLAAF view long range as the key features of their 4th gen fighters, since range is crucial to conduct any beyond border mission in East Asia, and PLAAF dont like AVIC to try to bypass open competition to push a loser team's scaled-down proposal to them, if even their original proposal fail to meet the tech requirements for PLAAF's 4th gen fighter, what the chance of their scaled-down versions?

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## Deino

Hmmm 

Guizhou Industrial Expo (Aerospace) - The Tenth Research Institute of Aerospace Science and Engineering, Liyang Company, AVIC, China.

http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1872692-1-1.html

Another hint ???

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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Guizhou Industrial Expo (Aerospace) - The Tenth Research Institute of Aerospace Science and Engineering, Liyang Company, AVIC, China.
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1872692-1-1.html
> 
> Another hint ???
> 
> View attachment 407562
> View attachment 407563


Some Chinese so-called insiders forumers has been betting their reputation that it will be a reality, not sure whats going on

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Some Chinese so-called insiders forumers has been betting their reputation that it will be a reality, not sure whats going on



What exactly is it that "will be a reality"?



Deino said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Guizhou Industrial Expo (Aerospace) - The Tenth Research Institute of Aerospace Science and Engineering, Liyang Company, AVIC, China.
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1872692-1-1.html
> 
> Another hint ???
> 
> View attachment 407562
> View attachment 407563



Guizhou is the location of GAIC, which manufactures engines (notably the WS-13) for the FC-31 program. Hence, it's not surprising that they would be present at a defense expo with a poster of their new platform.


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## Muhammad Omar

Deino said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Guizhou Industrial Expo (Aerospace) - The Tenth Research Institute of Aerospace Science and Engineering, Liyang Company, AVIC, China.
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1872692-1-1.html
> 
> Another hint ???
> 
> View attachment 407562
> View attachment 407563



A New Plane?? or new Version of J-31?


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## lcloo

Deino said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Guizhou Industrial Expo (Aerospace) - The Tenth Research Institute of Aerospace Science and Engineering, Liyang Company, AVIC, China.
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1872692-1-1.html
> 
> Another hint ???
> 
> View attachment 407562
> View attachment 407563


81192 number painted on the aircraft may implied that this video presentation is aimed at PLAN aviation.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> 81192 number painted on the aircraft may implied that this video presentation is aimed at PLAN aviation.




Yes for sure ... it could mean NOTHING else !

Question only is: is it an official hint or like others assume a desperate and not really PLA-sanctioned PR-stunt in order to gain attraction?


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Guizhou Industrial Expo (Aerospace) - The Tenth Research Institute of Aerospace Science and Engineering, Liyang Company, AVIC, China.
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1872692-1-1.html
> 
> Another hint ???
> 
> View attachment 407562
> View attachment 407563


Looks to be a plane without horizontal tail but too dark for me


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## yusheng

Muhammad Omar said:


> A New Plane?? or new Version of J-31?



it is not about the plane, but the engine, all these pictures are showed by engine institution AECC, GAIC













the last one says that the one engine which is under RD now, will give the plane 3.5-4.6m speed at 30km high.

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## Muhammad Omar

yusheng said:


> it is not about the plane, but the engine, all these pictures are showed by engine institution AECC, GAIC
> View attachment 407739
> View attachment 407736
> View attachment 407737
> View attachment 407738
> 
> the last one says that the one engine which is under RD now, will give the plane 3.5-4.6m speed at 30km high.



Thanks

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## ChineseToTheBone

No plane built without significant heat resistant materials can travel far at those improbable speeds.




Deino said:


>


I thought what is seen here was a space rocket at first. Haha.

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## Deino

yusheng said:


> ...
> the last one says that the one engine which is under RD now, will give the plane 3.5-4.6m speed at 30km high.




What should that mean ??? 3.5-4.6m speed at 30km ??? 
No aircraft can fly at an altitude of 30km and what kind of speed should that be (3.5-4.6m speed) ???

Either there was something lost or that reporter misquoted something

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## ChineseToTheBone

Deino said:


> Either there was something lost or that reporter misquoted something


That is actually what is written in Chinese on that final image, which I also find hard to believe.

It was 3.5 to 4.0 Mach by the way.

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## yusheng

sorry for my mistake , it is 4.0 Mach, not 4.6.

maybe soon we will see the video from which the pictures are taken, then we can discuss what kind of engine is under developing, and for what kind of plane.

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## Deino

ChineseToTheBone said:


> That is actually what is written in Chinese on that final image, which I also find hard to believe.
> 
> It was 3.5 to 4.0 Mach by the way.



But even this is - at least for an FC-31-based design impossible ... Even if Asok will take it for granted and prof for a 200 kN thrust engine.

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## ChineseToTheBone

Deino said:


> But even this is - at least for an FC-31-based design impossible


No kidding. That boasting of their supposed engines honestly makes them look ridiculous.

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## Deino

ChineseToTheBone said:


> No kidding. That boasting of their supposed engines honestly makes them look ridiculous.




Indeed, and if they want to advertise it on a show it's fine to add some specifications, but such hyper-bole ...


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## Beast

ChineseToTheBone said:


> No kidding. That boasting of their supposed engines honestly makes them look ridiculous.


Let me clarify, they did not claimed FC-31 with those engine can go Mach 4.
The wording in Chines only say, its suitable for plane going at Mach 4. They just happen to illustrate on FC-31.
I dont find it boasting. China AVIC brochure and posting hardly boast. In fact, they always state the most possible condition for the spec unlike Russian who will be their highest spec like claiming R-77 BVRAAM missile has range of 150km which we all know is only possible when the plane and missile is at max altitude..

The Conference posting emphasis is on engine and not plane. Take note.



Deino said:


> But even this is - at least for an FC-31-based design impossible ... Even if Asok will take it for granted and prof for a 200 kN thrust engine.


How do you know its definitely not a 200kn thrust engine? That is why I say you are not suitable to be moderator of Chinese forum section. You are so quick to jump on skeptics w/o even fully understand the Chinese context. You heavily depend on selective forumer translation to help you make judgement. And are their translation is always reliable? Let me clarify again. Its not on plane but on the engine. FC- 31 is just happen to be one of the possible candidate for that engine. They never claim FC-31 with their new engine can go Mach 4.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Let me clarify, they did not claimed FC-31 with those engine can go Mach 4.
> The wording in Chines only say, its suitable for plane going at Mach 4. They just happen to illustrate on FC-31.
> I dont find it boasting. China AVIC brochure and posting hardly boast. In fact, they always state the most possible condition for the spec unlike Russian who will be their highest spec like claiming R-77 BVRAAM missile has range of 150km which we all know is only possible when the plane and missile is at max altitude..
> 
> The Conference posting emphasis is on engine and not plane. Take note.




Thanks for that clarification, however an engine for a Mach 4 capable aircraft is completely different to a regular modern fighter engine suitable for a FC-31-based design and so the engine shown cannot be that engine. Therefore is it IMO again a similar stupid decision - similar stupid to the FC-31-model at Paris - to use a clearly FC-31-derived design with an engine in order to promote a Mach-4-capable engine.

Deino



Beast said:


> How do you know its definitely not a 200kn thrust engine? That is why I say you are not suitable to be moderator of Chinese forum section. You are so quick to jump on skeptics w/o even fully understand the Chinese context. You heavily depend on selective forumer translation to help you make judgement. And are their translation is always reliable? Let me clarify again. Its not on plane but on the engine. FC- 31 is just happen to be one of the possible candidate for that engine. They never claim FC-31 with their new engine can go Mach 4.



*PURE LOGIC !!! I do not need to read Chinese to understand that such an engine can never reach 200kN.*

You are so quick to pick up each and every hyperbole that fits Your chest-bumping even without fully understanding any technical issues.

Explain me how such a small engine suitable for a medium-weight fighter could reach 200kN ??? Explain me how and why should a modern turbofan be suitable for Mach 4.

And if they have indeed such an engine available why then using a FC-31 in that poster ?


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## Beast

Deino said:


> *PURE LOGIC !!! I do not need to read Chinese to understand that such an engine can never reach 200kN.*
> 
> You are so quick to pick up each and every hyperbole that fits Your chest-bumping even without fully understanding any technical issues.
> 
> Explain me how such a small engine suitable for a medium-weight fighter could reach 200kN ??? Explain me how and why should a modern turbofan be suitable for Mach 4.
> 
> And if they have indeed such an engine available why then using a FC-31 in that poster ?



If you used such analogy. It will not be accepted in court. Do you know that?

Can Guizhou show the state secret plane that goes Mach 4? Of cos they need to pick the next suitable open candidate for that engine. As I say , photo did not correspond to wording. This is a fact you as a Chinese military watcher needs to understand and accept it for China.
Maybe the secret plane has a four engine arrangement to let it achieve Mach 4 speech. Each thrust possible 120kn and that will give 480kn. I just give an example how these new engine may give it the reason for Mach 4 plane.

In China military, key point is always wording and not picture or photo. That is why I think you are not suitable for Chinese military forum moderator since you hardly understand Chinese. It will causes a lot of conflict and interest.

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## Deino

You are again comparing apples with bananas !

My point is simply if You want to advertise something You need to show what You try to sell ... so if You want to sell apples, why then showing bananas?

I do not question that Guizhou has such an engine in test, production or maybe even in use; we have enough reports about high-speed research but why using a FC-31 if You want in fact tell the world You have a Mach 4 capable engine..
You call it the Chinese way ... I call it at best "strange".


... and by the way being a moderator here has NOTHING to do if I can understand Chinese; but I know You will never accept or understand that.


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## Akasa

A new prototype, perhaps? Does anyone have updates about the prospects of the FC-31 being selected by the PLAN?

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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> A new prototype, perhaps? Does anyone have updates about the prospects of the FC-31 being selected by the PLAN?
> 
> View attachment 411832




Why should it be a new prototype ?? Looks exactly like V2 ... anyway nice to see it is still alive.

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## JSCh



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## 帅的一匹

CAC is designing a single engine stealthy fighter based on J20 and WS15 engine.

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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> CAC is designing a single engine stealthy fighter based on J20 and WS15 engine.



Source? Any more info on when it will debut or if it is a contender in the PLAN's 5th gen fighter program?


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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Source? Any more info on when it will debut or if it is a contender in the PLAN's 5th gen fighter program?


For export

I think it's might be a customer design for PAF.

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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> For export
> 
> I think it's might be a customer design for PAF.



Can you link me to the original post? There was talk about a single-engined fighter but nothing came of it.


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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Can you link me to the original post? There was talk about a single-engined fighter but nothing came of it.


There was a post in CJDBY, I highly believe it.

If I were the Chief of PAF, I will ask CAC to customized a scale down version of J20 with single engine. Very logical solution.

If I can come up with WS15 engine, PAF can also think of it. WS15 is very powerful engine, way better than RD93 the smoky one.

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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> There was a post in CJDBY, I highly believe it.
> 
> If I were the Chief of PAF, I will ask CAC to customized a scale down version of J20 with single engine. Very logical solution.
> 
> If I can come up with WS15 engine, PAF can also think of it. WS15 is very powerful engine, way better than RD93 the smoky one.



If you could provide a link to the original post, that'd be great. PAF is seeking to source from a domestic 5th generation fighter program and rumors of a Chinese single-engined 5th generation fighter haven't been reiterated by credible sources.


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## grey boy 2

FC-31 test flight 中国第二款隐形战机FC31再次试飞：开加力起飞

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## Deino

V1's cockpit 

Here is the image ...

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## XDescendantX

wanglaokan said:


> CAC is designing a single engine stealthy fighter based on J20 and WS15 engine.





wanglaokan said:


> For export
> 
> I think it's might be a customer design for PAF.



JF-17 Block X!?!?


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## 帅的一匹

XDescendantX said:


> JF-17 Block X!?!?


I think it's a whole new design. jF 17 as a light weight fighter has its limits, so we need to reinvent the wheel.

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## JSCh



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## eldamar

wanglaokan said:


> CAC is designing a single engine stealthy fighter based on J20 and WS15 engine.



source?


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## 帅的一匹

eldarlmari said:


> source?


This is quite right as PAF has started its own project of developing stealthy fighter, but it still need a partnership. As we all know PAF has shown deep interets in J20, so some CJDBY source is deducing it that the partner will be CAC.

And I strongly believe FC31 will get on board, modified with more robust engine to meet Navy's super cruise requirement.

It's no surprise if CAC can develop a customer single engine design 5th gen fighter based on WS10X or WS15. As India's 5th gen project is got stuck now, PAF has enough time to wait CAC and join the development together.

All these will be done under the table like JF17 project.

The specification is like can carry four PL15 in the weapon bay or Six SD10A. It might not need to make supercruise, but need very good stealthy features.

Good Stealthy feature with top notch AESA is way important than Supercruise ability. Fighter like J20 is kinda of overkill to most of the fighter on this planet, excluding F22.

When I'm looking for a partnership with someone in developing certain projects, I will choose someone had long term cooperation relationship with me and never default during cooperation. It's CAC for sure, can't excluding Turkey in the future.

A strong PAF fit in China's interests.

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## eldamar

wanglaokan said:


> This is quite right as PAF has started its own project of developing stealthy fighter, but it still need a partnership. As we all know PAF has shown deep interets in J20, so some CJDBY source is deducing it that the partner will be CAC.
> 
> And I strongly believe FC31 will get on board, modified with more robust engine to meet Navy's super cruise requirement.
> 
> It's no surprise if CAC can develop a customer single engine design 5th gen fighter based on WS10X or WS15. As India's 5th gen project is got stuck now, PAF has enough time to wait CAC and join the development together.
> 
> All these will be done under the table like JF17 project.
> 
> The specification is like can carry four PL15 in the weapon bay or Six SD10A. It might not need to make supercruise, but need very good stealthy features.
> 
> Good Stealthy feature with top notch AESA is way important than Supercruise ability. Fighter like J20 is kinda of overkill to most of the fighter on this planet, excluding F22.
> 
> When I'm looking for a partnership with someone in developing certain projects, I will choose someone had long term cooperation relationship with me and never default during cooperation. It's CAC for sure, can't excluding Turkey in the future.
> 
> A strong PAF fit in China's interests.



No, im talking about your source for this:

_'CAC is designing a single engine stealthy fighter based on J20 and WS15 engine.'_


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## cirr

25.07.2017






Twice a day in the past few days.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> 25.07.2017
> 
> View attachment 413872
> 
> 
> Twice a day in the past few days.



Any news on whether the FC-31 has been selected for the PLAN's 5th generation fighter tender?


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## ChineseToTheBone

cirr said:


> Twice a day in the past few days.


Was this particular shot originally from a video?


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## cnleio

The cockpit of FC-31

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## Deino

V2

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> V2
> 
> View attachment 414131


Design looks nice but I am pretty sure they are using the old black smoky RDs.

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## 帅的一匹

Han Warrior said:


> Design looks nice but I am pretty sure they are using the old black smoky RDs.


Those engine designer are lazy butt or they just simply retarded?

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## 帅的一匹

SAC is a bunch of idiot.

Seems the hope of FC31 get on board is very little

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## Han Patriot

F31 design looks stealthy and the only thing holding it back are the engines. That's the last piece of the puzzle.

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## 帅的一匹

发动机要是当初放在南面搞就好了，东北社会风气不是一般差。

沈霍伊还是那个沈霍伊。

数风流人物还看成洛马

都多少年了还在靠八爷和27忽悠钱。

隐身战机都冒黑烟还能隐身吗？

说句不好听的都被人瞧不起。就这么个破烂玩意还想糊弄海军上舰？

沈霍伊当海军是白痴么

27系列退役以后沈霍伊就可以关门了。

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## Daniel808

Han Warrior said:


> Design looks nice but I am pretty sure they are using the old black smoky RDs.





wanglaokan said:


> Those engine designer are lazy butt or they just simply retarded?



FC-31V2.0 is using *2 Indigenous Smokeless WS-13E Turbofan Engine*

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## 帅的一匹

Daniel808 said:


> FC-31V2.0 is using *2 Indigenous Smokeless WS-13E Turbofan Engine*


It still smokes, look at the video.

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## Han Patriot

wanglaokan said:


> It still smokes, look at the video.


Yah, that's why I was pissed.

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## 帅的一匹

Han Warrior said:


> Yah, that's why I was pissed.


说明差距很大啊！不容乐观。长期被欧美制裁还是受到很大影响的。need more time to accumulate experience.

Unless WS15 engine installed on a single engine fighter, we can't call it a success.

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## Brainsucker

I'm curious, why don't they make a single engine fighter for the FC-31? China has already has WS10 (or if they lack of it in the inventory, They still have Al-31). So why need to create a smaller engine that they call WS-13, and make it two engine instead?


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## 帅的一匹

Brainsucker said:


> I'm curious, why don't they make a single engine fighter for the FC-31? China has already has WS10 (or if they lack of it in the inventory, They still have Al-31). So why need to create a smaller engine that they call WS-13, and make it two engine instead?


Because SAC don't know what PLAN want, never design a product that your customer don't need.

WS10's thrust is not enough to power a fighter size of current FC31V2. We need WS15 to do it. I'm very excited if CAC can design a medium size single engine stealthy fighter based on WS15.

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## UKBengali

wanglaokan said:


> Because SAC don't know what PLAN want, never design a product that your customer don't need.
> 
> WS10's thrust is not enough to power a fighter size of current FC31V2. We need WS15 to do it. I'm very excited if CAC can design a medium size single engine stealthy fighter based on WS15.



Naval fighter should be twin-engines for safety reasons.


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## Brainsucker

wanglaokan said:


> Because SAC don't know what PLAN want, never design a product that your customer don't need.
> 
> WS10's thrust is not enough to power a fighter size of current FC31V2. We need WS15 to do it. I'm very excited if CAC can design a medium size single engine stealthy fighter based on WS15.



But it can power a J-10 perfectly. Which is bigger, FC-31 or J-10?


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## Ultima Thule

Brainsucker said:


> But it can power a J-10 perfectly. Which is bigger, FC-31 or J-10?


FC-31 V2 57 ft whereas J-10 50 ft long
*Specifications (J-10A)*




J-10SY of the August 1st aerobatics team



*General characteristics*


*Crew:* 1[20]
*Length:* 15.49 m (50.82 ft)
*Wingspan:* 9.75 m (31.99 ft)
*Height:* 5.43 m (17.81 ft)
*Wing area:* 39 m² (356.3 ft²)
*Empty weight:* 9,750 kg (21,495 lb[52])
*Useful load:* 6,000 kg[52] (13,200lb)
*Loaded weight:* 12,400 kg (28,600 lb)
*Max. takeoff weight:* 19,277 kg [20][52] (42,500 lb)
*Powerplant:* 1 × Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN or WS-10A turbofan
*Dry thrust:* 79.43 kN / 89.17 kN (17,860 lbf / 19,000 lbf)
*Thrust with afterburner:* 125 kN / 130 kN (27,999 lbf / 29,000 lbf)

*Performance*


*Maximum speed:* Mach 2.2 at altitude,[53][54] Mach 1.2 at sea level[52]
*Combat radius:* 550 km[52] (342 mi)
*Ferry range:* 1,850 km[52] (1,150 mi)
*Service ceiling:* 18,000 m[52] (59,055 ft)
*Wing loading:* 381 kg/m² (78 lb/ft²)
*Thrust/weight:* 1.15 (with AL-31FN3); 1.16 (with WS-10B)

*Maximum g-load:* +9/–3 _g_[52]







*Specifications (estimated)*
Because the aircraft is in development, these specifications — based on available imagery — are approximate and preliminary.

_Data from_ Aviation Week[53] unless otherwise attributed

*General characteristics*


*Crew:* one (pilot)
*Length:* 17.3 m (56 ft 9 in) [54]
*Wingspan:* 11.5 m (37 ft 9 in)
*Height:* 4.8 m (15 ft 9 in)
*Wing area:* 40 m2 (430 sq ft) [55]
*Max takeoff weight:* 28,000 kg (61,729 lb) [54]
*Powerplant:* 2 × RD-93 afterburning turbofans, 85 kN (19,000 lbf) thrust each
*Powerplant:* 2 × WS-13 afterburning turbofans (projected upgrade)
*Maximum speed:* 2,200 km/h (1,367 mph; 1,188 kn)
*Maximum speed:* Mach 1.8
*Combat range:* 1,250 km (777 mi; 675 nmi) on internal fuel, or 2,000 kilometres (1,200 mi) with external tanks

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## 帅的一匹

UKBengali said:


> Naval fighter should be twin-engines for safety reasons.


What about F35B? As long as the engine is very powerful and reliable, it doesn't matter.

But I believe due to combat range consideration, PLN prefers a naval version of J20. The single engine stealthy fighter is mainly for export.

Maybe a special design for Pakistan, who knows?

If FC31 want to pull it off, it must have new engine more powerful than F414.

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## 52051

SAC's FC-31 wont be Navy's fighter, the best they can do is to abound this project and move on, maybe in the future they can set-up a few producation lines for J-20.

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## gambit

wanglaokan said:


> But I believe due to combat range consideration, *PLN prefers a naval version of J20.*


You do not know that. No one does.

You cannot 'navalize', in other words, make aircraft carrier worthy, an existing platform. Or to put it another way, you *SHOULD NOT* do so.

Given enough money and finances, technical and engineering obstacles can be overcome, but with that much 'given', you might as well design a naval version of that platform from paper.

I understand you guys plays fast and loose with the laws of physics, so this is more for the silent readers out there...

Just because the F-16 and F-18 have tailhooks, does that mean the F-16 can land on an aircraft carrier ? On an emergency and if the ship's captain is willing to commit career suicide -- then yes.

Physically speaking, despite similarity in appearance, the tailhooks on both jets are very different in usage.

Land runways have arresting cables...

http://www.aviationchatter.com/2009...arresting-cables-bring-you-to-an-abrupt-stop/


> Runway arresting cables are usually located between 1,500 to 2,800 feet from the runway threshold and may be raised up to three inches above the runway surface. They are marked by yellow circles spanning the width of the runway.


Land runway arresting cables are actually not there to catch landing aircrafts but to catch aircrafts that somehow *FAILED TO TAKE OFF*. Assuming military aircrafts equipped with tailhooks for now.

Further, land runway arresting cables are design to produce gradual drag -- passive -- via increasing resistance tension.

For example...As the F-16 suddenly lost engine on a TO roll, the pilot will apply brakes and drop the tailhook. He cannot 'slam' on the brakes like the movies does it. He will overheat the brakes and probably they will literally explode. He will maintain constant pressure on the brakes ( rudder pedals toe action ) and at end-of-runway ( EOR ) the tailhook should catch the arresting cable. At that point, the cable will string out and the resistance spooling action begins. Drag increases on a curve and the F-16's airframe, just like most airframes designed for land basing, will experience structural stress on that curve.

But on an aircraft carrier, the arresing cable works on a totally different intention -- active arrest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arresting_gear


> The aircraft's weight is set by the arresting gear engine operator. The operator is given *the weight of the aircraft by the air officer in Primary Flight Control. The operator then sets the Constant Runout Control Valve to the appropriate weight setting for that aircraft.* The pressure setting for the arresting gear engine remains at a constant pressure of about 400 pounds per square inch. The constant runout valve (CROV) stops the aircraft (as opposed to hydraulic pressure).


In other words, the arresting cable system on an aircraft carrier will actually *PULL* on the aircraft and the arresting force is based upon aircraft's weight. This system is much more precise and complex than the land based system.

Going back to the laws of physics...

The airframe -- like the F-18 -- must be designed to take a much higher G load in an incredibly short amount of time. This means the F-18 was designed from the start to be an aircraft carrier based airframe. All the major stress members of this airframe must be designed -- from paper -- to transfer as much as possible that G load in the longitudinal axis and must be robust enough to withstand yrs of operation. Nearly everything on the F-18 was designed for that high G load.

What is the difference between 'tough' and 'strong'...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/a23259/know-your-material-engineering-vocab/

The F-18's major landing gear structures must be both tough and strong, obviously, but they are more tough than strong.

My F-16 cannot do what the F-18 can. If an F-16 must take a cable, whether on a TO roll or on an emergency landing like from battle damage, the jet will be a hangar queen for various in-depth inspections and ops checks before being cleared to fly again.

Here is an example of a land runway arresting cable system, the jet is a Lakenheath F-15, timestamp 2:30...






Note how long did the jet continued down the runway *AFTER* it caught the cable. Completely different from what goes on the aircraft carrier.

So unless the J-20 was designed like the F-4, a fighter that was used by the USAF, USN, and USMC, there is no way anyone in the public sphere can declare with any degree of certainty what the PLAN want for that jet. Modifying the J-20 for carrier operations would probably involve so much money and design changes that it would reduce the jet's performance in all sectors.

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## Deino

52051 said:


> SAC's FC-31 wont be Navy's fighter, the best they can do is to abound this project and move on, maybe in the future they can set-up a few producation lines for J-20.



Care to explain why you are so sure about that?


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## Deino



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## cnleio

Deino said:


> View attachment 415971


PLAAF or PLAN Airforce should give a chance to FC-31 ... as the cheaper stealth version to support J-20 in airfight or a stealth anti-ship attacker to replace Navy JH-7A.

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## Muhammad Omar

Any news of PAF looking in to this ??


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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Deino said:


> View attachment 415971



Very nice looking jet, I'm wondering what will be the role of this fighter, a low -high mix with J-20 or carrier fighter?

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## 52051

Deino said:


> Care to explain why you are so sure about that?



Well, actually there is not a single source from China suggesting PLAAF/PLAN even remotely interested in this project.



cnleio said:


> PLAAF or PLAN Airforce should give a chance to FC-31 ... as the cheaper stealth version to support J-20 in airfight or a stealth anti-ship attacker to replace Navy JH-7A.



First of all it may not be cheaper than mass production of J-20s, considering the extra development fees/times, and it is a well known fact that J-31 will not be as cost-efficient as J-20 (the former using close-door deal in favor of AVIC's own rather poor factories for its sub-systems, and thats one exact reason why AVIC try to push this failed project, whilst J-20 using open-bidding/competition to decide its sub-system suppiliers, and alot of suppilers are outside of AVIC).

Seconldy, even if we ignore the fact J-31 is a downgrade version of SAC's J-XX lost to J-20, just considering the range problem: the Eas Asia war threater is quite a bit different than these in West Europe, a combat radius of 1500 km is almost a must to conduct any meaningful missions, even if J-31 is 1/2 the cost of J-20 it is still meaning nothing, since in terms of mission-cost efficiency, it is still 0 against 1.

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## Beast

I think the major problem for FC-31 is many subsystem that require clearance from PLA for export cannot be granted.


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## 52051

Beast said:


> I think the major problem for FC-31 is many subsystem that require clearance from PLA for export cannot be granted.



Not to mention J-31 is a collection of losers, actually after losing to J-20 in its J-XX project and after Yang Wei decided to using open competition to decide the sub-system suppliers of J-20 instead of closed-door deals, the AVIC begin to push this J-31 project.

J-31 is a combination of losers, the design is a watered-down version of the losing J-XX proposal, and all sub-system suppliers are also from the losing side in AVIC.

I think J-31 is a DOA project, no wonder PLA show no interests here, I just wonder how long before AVIC give up.


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## Akasa

52051 said:


> Not to mention J-31 is a collection of losers, actually after losing to J-20 in its J-XX project and after Yang Wei decided to using open competition to decide the sub-system suppliers of J-20 instead of closed-door deals, the AVIC begin to push this J-31 project.
> 
> J-31 is a combination of losers, the design is a watered-down version of the losing J-XX proposal, and all sub-system suppliers are also from the losing side in AVIC.
> 
> I think J-31 is a DOA project, no wonder PLA show no interests here, I just wonder how long before AVIC give up.



PLAN might be pursuing an enlarged fighter based on the FC-31. The issue with using J-20s as a carrier fighter is that its fuselage is quite large.


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## 52051

SinoSoldier said:


> PLAN might be pursuing an enlarged fighter based on the FC-31. The issue with using J-20s as a carrier fighter is that its fuselage is quite large.



J-20's dimension is smaller than J-15.

And I bet to design a navy version of J-20 is still quicker than design a navy version of J-31.

Also the combat radius of a navy fighter is even more important than a land-based fighter in this age of long-range anti-ship missiles, PLAN wont settle for less.

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> J-20's dimension is smaller than J-15.



A J-15, in my opinion, is already too large as a carrier-borne fighter, especially on Chinese vessels.



52051 said:


> And I bet to design a navy version of J-20 is still quicker than design a navy version of J-31.



Says who? Downsizing a J-20 would require a redesign, as would enlarging the FC-31. SAC does, however, have more experience designing carrier-borne jets and its related subcomponents.



52051 said:


> Also the combat radius of a navy fighter is even more important than a land-based fighter in this age of long-range anti-ship missiles, PLAN wont settle for less.



An F-35-sized fighter could provide a 1200-1300 km combat radius, which is roughly comparable to that of the *current *FC-31. Therefore, an enlarged FC-31 would have an even greater combat range.


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## Deino

Trumpeter unveils a model In 1/72 for the V1





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1939411649610630

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## kurutoga

SinoSoldier said:


> A J-15, in my opinion, is already too large as a carrier-borne fighter, especially on Chinese vessels.



It is not the number of jets that is important. Heavier jets can do more with less sorte. Larger jets are preferred to reduce sorte which is proportional to the risk/cost, especially when EMALS is in place. I don't consider J-31 having a future in PLAN

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## Muhammad Omar

Deino said:


> Trumpeter unveils a model In 1/72 for the V1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1939411649610630
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 419710



Is it J-31 3rd Version??? 
tail is different


----------



## siegecrossbow

Muhammad Omar said:


> Is it J-31 3rd Version???
> tail is different



The tail actually looks similar to that of V1.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

siegecrossbow said:


> The tail actually looks similar to that of V1.



Yupe


----------



## ozranger

Some unidentified and unverifiable sources revealed an interesting story about the FC-31 project. It is well known that, although AVIC and its child companies CAC and SAC are state-owned companies, they normally operate in a typical capitalism way, with an exception that they receive major government funding on R&D projects. One of the Institute 611, CAC and J-20 winning factors in the 4th generation fighter competition is that they subcontracted sub-systems to winning bidders no matter whether they are AVIC companies or not. Such arrangement is believed to be initially encouraged and later lawfully enforced by the PLA. No doubt it obviously upset AVIC management as well as their "first son" Institute 601 (Institute 601 even names itself the first son of the People's Republic). So the then AVIC boss Lin Zuoming diverted government R&D funds on major jet engine projects into AVIC's real estate business, and then skimmed the real estate business profit together with other subordinate companies' profit to fund Institute 601 and SAC to build FC-31. This seemed to be crossing the border created by their government bosses. As a result, Lin was forced retired, engine business was segregated into a new business group called China Aviation Motors Group and the real estate business was taken over by the POLY Group.


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

ozranger said:


> So the then AVIC boss Lin Zuoming diverted government R&D funds on *major jet engine projects* into AVIC's *real estate business*



If this is true, he needs to be flayed. Alive.

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## ozranger

ZeEa5KPul said:


> If this is true, he needs to be flayed. Alive.



I guess, as Lin was authorized to grow business with any required measures, and probably he also paid a proportion of the profit from real estate business back to the engine projects, he is not corrupt himself, by the existing rules they found no reason to punish him further. So they just simply cut him off from the management, and cut off the engine and real estate businesses from AVIC.


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## kurutoga

ozranger said:


> I guess, as Lin was authorized to grow business with any required measures, and probably he also paid a proportion of the profit from real estate business back to the engine projects, he is not corrupt himself, by the existing rules they found no reason to punish him further. So they just simply cut him off from the management, and cut off the engine and real estate businesses from AVIC.



Lin was chopped because his internal trading case, which is considered as corruption.


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## cirr

v2.0 #2 reportedly out


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> v2.0 #2 reportedly out



Any idea when the PLAN carrier-based variant will roll out and whether it's in development at all?


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## Deino

cirr said:


> v2.0 #2 reportedly out




Pictures please !!


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## Deino

cirr said:


> v2.0 #2 reportedly out



Hmmm ??? At the SDF there is a discussion that noted that the guy, who potsed this rumour first simply said, he was driving to work and by SAC, where he saw 2 pairs of V-tails. He cannot remember correctly - neither shape nor colour - but he thinks he saw both in yellow primer. 

As such it is highly likely that he simply saw two J-16s. 

So all in all a more than unreliable statement !? 

Deino


----------



## Akasa

Deino said:


> Hmmm ??? At the SDF there is a discussion that noted that the guy, who potsed this rumour first simply said, he was driving to work and by SAC, where he saw 2 pairs of V-tails. He cannot remember correctly - neither shape nor colour - but he thinks he saw both in yellow primer.
> 
> As such it is highly likely that he simply saw two J-16s.
> 
> So all in all a more than unreliable statement !?
> 
> Deino



J-16s don't have V-tails...?


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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> J-16s don't have V-tails...?



Indeed ... but, but, but ... if he cannot even remmber correctly the colour I'm not sure if I woud bet, if he then was able to differ V-tails from to two parallel tails !??

I would be glad if I'm wrongg ... but I'm very much sceptical.

Deino


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> Indeed ... but, but, but ... if he cannot even remmber correctly the colour I'm not sure if I woud bet, if he then was able to differ V-tails from to two parallel tails !??
> 
> I would be glad if I'm wrongg ... but I'm very much sceptical.
> 
> Deino



If he specifically mentioned "V-tails", I would presume he could distinguish between parallel and canted tails. But again, we would know soon if there is indeed a new prototype.


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## Deino

Via SDF:



> The user officially recanted today. The other pair of Vs belong to 1.0, not 2.0 No.2. He took a closer look today and the other V was very clearly trapezoidal and black.



Deino

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## Figaro



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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/901243042371325952

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## Stealth

JSCh said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/901243042371325952



Raptor in the skies....

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## Kiss_of_the_Dragon

Stealth said:


> Raptor in the skies....



Chini Raptorski

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## Figaro

Kiss_of_the_Dragon said:


> Chini Raptorski


The J-20 is China's Raptor; not the FC-31. Not to splash some cold water here but the FC-31 is mostly a failed project currently unless they can persuade the PLAN to be its next carrier fighter (which is unlikely). Shenyang, as usual, is inferior to Chengdu and used to rely exclusively on producing copies. In fact, their J-16 AESA radar had to be completely redesigned after quality issues ... something that the 14th institute has never experienced. The fact is Shenyang has never produced any "genuine" fighter; the FC-31 is a weird mixture of stolen F-35 blueprints with a twin engine configuration whose engines are still smoky. Thank god SAC did not win the fifth generation tender in 2007 otherwise there would be nothing remotely close to the J-20. It's gotten much better in recent years with its J-16, J-15, and J-11 variants but the truth is they're *all *based on Russian flanker designs. Compare that with Chengdu, whose jets are constantly undergoing innovation and being upgraded. The PLAAF, to many's disbelief, had to buy 24 Su-35 jets just to cover for the J-11D's many failures in 2015 (although the program still hasn't been cancelled yet ... oddly). I have always been surprised (and frustrated) by Shenyang's lack of innovation ... maybe it's because of CPC patronage? So for the people who compare the FC-31 to the F-22; it's not even close. If the rumors are true that the 611 institute has submitted a bid for China's 5th generation carrier-fighter, the FC-31 is dead ... completely.


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> The J-20 is China's Raptor; not the FC-31. Not to splash some cold water here but the FC-31 is mostly a failed project currently unless they can persuade the PLAN to be its next carrier fighter (which is unlikely). Shenyang, as usual, is inferior to Chengdu and used to rely exclusively on producing copies. In fact, their J-16 AESA radar had to be completely redesigned after quality issues ... something that the 14th institute has never experienced. The fact is Shenyang has never produced any "genuine" fighter; the FC-31 is a weird mixture of stolen F-35 blueprints with a twin engine configuration whose engines are still smoky. Thank god SAC did not win the fifth generation tender in 2007 otherwise there would be nothing remotely close to the J-20. It's gotten much better in recent years with its J-16, J-15, and J-11 variants but the truth is they're *all *based on Russian flanker designs. Compare that with Chengdu, whose jets are constantly undergoing innovation and being upgraded. The PLAAF, to many's disbelief, had to buy 24 Su-35 jets just to cover for the J-11D's many failures in 2015 (although the program still hasn't been cancelled yet ... oddly). I have always been surprised (and frustrated) by Shenyang's lack of innovation ... maybe it's because of CPC patronage? So for the people who compare the FC-31 to the F-22; it's not even close. If the rumors are true that the 611 institute has submitted a bid for China's 5th generation carrier-fighter, the FC-31 is dead ... completely.



I'm sure you've read the ongoing discussion at SDF, so I'll tack on a few points:

1. SAC's bid for the PLAAF's heavy fighter program was a tri-plane design and not the FC-31. The FC-31 was a private venture pushed by the firm following its loss and was designed to give SAC headway into both the export market and the PLAAF/PLANAF doctrine. So far, the PLAAF has not pursued the FC-31 *although that may very well change in the future*, if we are to go by historical precedents.

2. SAC actually has a leg up over CAC when it comes to naval and particularly catapult-capable fighters due to its experience on the J-15 project. As for J-20 vs FC-31, we can't really make a worthwhile judgment until the latter completes its developmental cycle.

The FC-31 program is reminiscent of the Russian MiG-35 project; both are capable but inherently redundant jets that are expendable but nevertheless with the potential of being adopted by the air force or navy if the need arises.


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## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> I'm sure you've read the ongoing discussion at SDF, so I'll tack on a few points:
> 
> 1. SAC's bid for the PLAAF's heavy fighter program was a tri-plane design and not the FC-31. The FC-31 was a private venture pushed by the firm following its loss and was designed to give SAC headway into both the export market and the PLAAF/PLANAF doctrine. So far, the PLAAF has not pursued the FC-31 *although that may very well change in the future*, if we are to go by historical precedents.
> 
> 2. SAC actually has a leg up over CAC when it comes to naval and particularly catapult-capable fighters due to its experience on the J-15 project. As for J-20 vs FC-31, we can't really make a worthwhile judgment until the latter completes its developmental cycle.
> 
> The FC-31 program is reminiscent of the Russian MiG-35 project; both are capable but inherently redundant jets that are expendable but nevertheless with the potential of being adopted by the air force or navy if the need arises.


I actually haven't read the discussion because I don't really follow the FC-31. Anyways ... how are you so confident that this "may very well change in the future" given SAC's poor track record and its mediocre performance (where's your historical precedent?). I seriously doubt the PLA will ever purchase the FC-31; it would be a dumb choice monetarily and militarily. It's true that SAC has a leg up versus the J-20 when it comes to carrier aviation; the former's design is ideal for naval aviation while the latter is a heavy-air superiority fighter. But it does not mean the PLA has even considered the FC-31's prospects. Regarding the Mig-35, that's the problem because the Russian airforce doesn't want it and Mig is trying to sell it to "poorer" countries in need of 4++ fighter. The FC-31 is a rushed and cheap attempt to export "5th generation" to developing countries; as such it would never meet the high requirements (technological and design) set forth by the PLAAF in recent years, especially if it does not receive state funding. Even with the much improved V2, the PLAAF has not shown any more interest and probably will not in the future either ...


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> I actually haven't read the discussion because I don't really follow the FC-31. Anyways ... how are you so confident that this "may very well change in the future" given SAC's poor track record and its mediocre performance (where's your historical precedent?). I seriously doubt the PLA will ever purchase the FC-31; it would be a dumb choice monetarily and militarily. It's true that SAC has a leg up versus the J-20 when it comes to carrier aviation; the former's design is ideal for naval aviation while the latter is a heavy-air superiority fighter. But it does not mean the PLA has even considered the FC-31's prospects. Regarding the Mig-35, that's the problem because the Russian airforce doesn't want it and Mig is trying to sell it to "poorer" countries in need of 4++ fighter. The FC-31 is a rushed and cheap attempt to export "5th generation" to developing countries; as such it would never meet the high requirements (technological and design) set forth by the PLAAF in recent years, especially if it does not receive state funding. Even with the much improved V2, the PLAAF has not shown any more interest and probably will not in the future either ...



The historical precedent I was referring to is the Q-5, a jet that was initially rejected by the PLAAF but later inducted in large numbers following careful evaluation of its performance in the Pakistani Air Force. Additionally, it is actually not uncommon to see the PLA (or any other military for that matter) induct weapons that were initially slated for the export market.

If you wish to refer to SAC's track record, it has done fairly well when it comes to supplying the PLAAF and PLAN with heavyweight platforms, although innovation is lacking. I'd also like to mention that the J-16 AESA fiasco may very well be the fault of the AESA radar's manufacturer rather than SAC itself.

It's also important to make a distinction between the PLAAF and PLANAF; while the former has not shown any tentative interest in the FC-31, the same cannot be said of the PLANAF which is rumored to be evaluating between the FC-31 and J-20 for its next-generation naval fighter.


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## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> The historical precedent I was referring to is the Q-5, a jet that was initially rejected by the PLAAF but later inducted in large numbers following careful evaluation of its performance in the Pakistani Air Force. Additionally, it is actually not uncommon to see the PLA (or any other military for that matter) induct weapons that were initially slated for the export market.
> 
> If you wish to refer to SAC's track record, it has done fairly well when it comes to supplying the PLAAF and PLAN with heavyweight platforms, although innovation is lacking. I'd also like to mention that the J-16 AESA fiasco may very well be the fault of the AESA radar's manufacturer rather than SAC itself.
> 
> It's also important to make a distinction between the PLAAF and PLANAF; while the former has not shown any tentative interest in the FC-31, the same cannot be said of the PLANAF which is rumored to be evaluating between the FC-31 and J-20 for its next-generation naval fighter.


But that is only one precedent. And the Q-5 and FC-31 are completely different aircraft in their role, specifications, and avionics. Are we just going to take it for granted that the PLAAF wants a substandard product for the future of naval aviation? The problem is the PLAAF has not shown any interest whatsoever in the FC-31; they're more interested in a navalized J-20 which is not an ideal plane for CATOBAR. 

As I've said, Shenyang has done much better in recent years ... but its gap with Chengdu has not shrunk. If SAC cannot even adequately enforce QA within its own supply chain, how do we expect it to do so with a fifth generation fighter (remember the WS-10 fiasco in 2009?). Quality control is one of the many problems of SAC. 

Exactly my point. The FC-31 is definitely suited in terms of design to be China's next generation naval fighter whereas the J-20 is most certainly not (needing substantial redesign on all fronts). Then why's there even competition given SAC's "experience" in naval aviation and CAC's lack thereof? It's obvious that the PLANAF is concerned about Shenyang's poor track record ... and they ought to be as the naval fighter program is just as significant as the J-20 ground based program.


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> But that is only one precedent. And the Q-5 and FC-31 are completely different aircraft in their role, specifications, and avionics. Are we just going to take it for granted that the PLAAF wants a substandard product for the future of naval aviation? The problem is the PLAAF has not shown any interest whatsoever in the FC-31; they're more interested in a navalized J-20 which is not an ideal plane for CATOBAR.
> 
> As I've said, Shenyang has done much better in recent years ... but its gap with Chengdu has not shrunk. If SAC cannot even adequately enforce QA within its own supply chain, how do we expect it to do so with a fifth generation fighter (remember the WS-10 fiasco in 2009?). Quality control is one of the many problems of SAC.
> 
> Exactly my point. The FC-31 is definitely suited in terms of design to be China's next generation naval fighter whereas the J-20 is most certainly not (needing substantial redesign on all fronts). Then why's there even competition given SAC's "experience" in naval aviation and CAC's lack thereof? It's obvious that the PLANAF is concerned about Shenyang's poor track record ... and they ought to be as the naval fighter program is just as significant as the J-20 ground based program.



The Q-5 is an example in which the PLAAF rejected a type of platform only to return to it years later. Other examples exist as well, such as the Wing Loong drone and a few others. The Q-5 vs FC-31 argument is irrelevant as the former is used as an example for the latter's case.

Let's not jump ahead now; there is no indication that the PLAN is more interested in a naval J-20. The only rumor regarding its next-generation fighter tender is that it requires a "medium-sized, heavyweight" aircraft. Both designs could fit that requirement with a redesign. A lot of observers erroneously claim that the PLAN prefers the J-20 due to its range, but fail to consider that a scaled-down naval J-20 would likely forfeit its range advantage over an enlarged FC-31 design.

Lastly, I highly doubt that the FC-31 vs J-20 competition exists because the PLAN had concerns regarding SAC's quality control. The two designs, simply put, provide the PLAN more options than merely one. That isn't to say, of course, that the PLAN doesn't have its qualms about Shenyang.


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## cnleio



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## grey boy 2

Latest rumors: the so-called V3 model is actually a new FC-31 version that is going to compete with J-20 as the next generation aircraft carrier borne fighter (歼-31舰载型方案细节曝光 未来或与歼-20展开竞争)
Credits to



angadow  2017-09-03 09:49:30

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## ChineseToTheBone

grey boy 2 said:


> Latest rumors: the so-called V3 model is actually a new FC-31 version that is going to compete with J-20 as the next generation aircraft carrier borne fighter


So it turns out the navy might have more interest for this project. I still think our air force might be interested too after seeing their promotion video a while back include this stealth fighter jet.

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


>




Regrettably this is only the old image from 11 May mirrored.

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## Deino

????? Any special meaning !????

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## asia2000

Deino said:


> ????? Any special meaning !????
> 
> View attachment 423818



Title: FC-31 designer in his office

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## JSCh

From cjdby.net today,

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


>



Oh please. This is also an old imge just with changed colours....


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## ozranger

Deino said:


> ????? Any special meaning !????
> 
> View attachment 423818



It seems to be the carrier based model, ie. the No.3 model. I think its trying to impress people with chief designer Sun's confidence on the upcoming bid for next generation carrier based fighter jet.

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## cirr



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## Akasa

cirr said:


>



Is this a recent test flight? If so, it could indicate that the program is still in the game.


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## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> Is this a recent test flight? If so, it could indicate that the program is still in the game.


Henri K says the FC-31 at this point is mostly export oriented ...


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> Henri K says the FC-31 at this point is mostly export oriented ...



There are recent back-and-forth rumors saying that the competition is still going on. Who knows.


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## samsara

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/910509232792805376

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## Deino

Seems as if our friend finally got some paint ! 







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/913254623036579840


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Seems as if our friend finally got some paint !
> 
> View attachment 428384
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/913254623036579840



Not yet.


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> Not yet.




So is it only some sort of poster with the FC-31's badge?


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> So is it only some sort of poster with the FC-31's badge?

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## Deino

Ohhh ... thanks as usual !


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## grey boy 2

FC-31 test flight
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Deino

Is that a hint or a political sign? Even if the image on the right side on the bottom looks like a Flanker.


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## grey boy 2

Not only a hint but a prediction dated back to 2013 
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Not only a hint but a prediction dated back to 2013
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.



Could you provide a translation?


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## cirr



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## Deino

Plus another one.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


>



Any implications of this recent publicity?


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## JSCh



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## grey boy 2

A nice one
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Deino

Is this real or a CG only ?

https://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/forum/201710/16/211327fgjm60wrkmfmqmkz.gif






PS ... indeed only a CG


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## deep_blue

Deino said:


> Is this real or a CG only ?
> 
> https://img.supmil.net/data/attachment/forum/201710/16/211327fgjm60wrkmfmqmkz.gif
> 
> View attachment 431541
> 
> 
> PS ... indeed only a CG
> 
> View attachment 431542


Not a CGI.
In another thread there is a small video in which it opens its bay.

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## monitor

cirr said:


>




At first sight it's look like F-22 Raptor.


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## Deino

deep_blue said:


> Not a CGI.
> In another thread there is a small video in which it opens its bay.




Are You sure and can You please link that video ... IMO that missile launch is clearly a CG.

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## Deino

Indeed ... seems to be real.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/919949408447348736

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## deep_blue

Deino said:


> Are You sure and can You please link that video ... IMO that missile launch is clearly a CG.


Soryy.
I was bit quicker in responce and the pic of a missile launch apeared later on my screen.
So i dont claim the authenticity of pic with missile.however here is the link i was reffering to
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...f-updates-debate.343466/page-123#post-9947088

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## grey boy 2



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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Are You sure and can You please link that video ... IMO that missile launch is clearly a CG.



Missile launch appears to be CG but opening weapons bay in GIF seems real.

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## grey boy 2

The chief designer of J-15 孙聪 recently visiting and inspected the FC-31 V2
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> The chief designer of J-15 孙聪 recently visiting and inspected the FC-31 V2
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.




however that "inspection looks more like a TV-show than an official inspection; anyway a nice model ... by the way, who is this "funny guy" on the left in that image?
Looks not like one related to the military.








Figaro said:


> This is
> 
> This appears to be a well done CG ... but unfortunately, it is not real




Can You prove it?


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> however that "inspection looks more like a TV-show than an official inspection; anyway a nice model ... by the way, who is this "funny guy" on the left in that image?
> Looks not like one related to the military.
> 
> View attachment 431568
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can You prove it?


Just look at the missile


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## Stealth

grey boy 2 said:


> The chief designer of J-15 孙聪 recently visiting and inspected the FC-31 V2
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.



Fucking Beautiful aircraft in terms of its design & shape. Look sexiest bird after F22 Raptor.

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## 星海军事

The Eagle said:


> Missile launch appears to be CG but opening weapons bay in GIF seems real.



That's true.


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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> That's true.



Hey, any new updates on the FC-31's bid for PLANAF's carriers?


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## grey boy 2



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## Stealth



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## jhungary

SinoSoldier said:


> Could you provide a translation?



The Passage in Chinese Said;

During a Late August 2013 inspection tour, Xi inspected Eagle 1.0 (Possible referring to J-31) J-15 and J-16, and watch the J-15 take off and landing training. Eagle 1.0 was damaged by hard landing during prior test flight, which damaged the landing gear, so Xi was not be able to watch its test flight and only as an exhibition on the ground. Due to press restriction, Xi only.....[read further]


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## F-7



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## Deino

These are only old news?


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## antonius123

*Chinese Researchers Develop Material to Make Jets Stealthier than Ever*

*The new material is roughly ten times thinner than previous radar-absorbing substances, making it viable in fighter jet and ship construction.*








By Jay Bennett
Nov 12, 2015

In a paper published in the Journal of Applied Physics yesterday, Chinese scientists from Huazhong University of Science and Technology detail the development of a new material that could be used to construct fighter jets capable of thwarting even the most advanced radar technology. 

Other materials that can absorb microwave radar signals in ultrahigh frequencies (UHF) are too thick to use in fighter jet construction. But lead researcher of the paper, Wenhua Xu, says the new material is almost ten times thinner than anything else available. The material could be used in a variety of military aircraft and ships, but it is particularly interesting for its potential application in fighter jets.

The most advanced microwave radars broadcast signals at UHF that bounce off objects like aircraft. The returning microwave signals are detected by antenna arrays, allowing radar technicians to detect objects even if they are obscured by clouds. Anti-radar materials absorb some of those signals, making a large object appear smaller than it is. But current stealth technologies employed in aircraft like the F-35 fighter jet are not particularly effective against UHF signals. The newly developed material might be.

Huazhong University's material is composed of various layers and can be "tuned" to absorb a wide range of microwave frequencies. A metal slab sits on top of a layer of thin metal honeycomb, and under that is an "active frequency selective surface material" made of a .04 mm layer of copper resistors and capacitors. Underneath all _that_ is a circuit board with semi-conducting diodes and more capacitors.

The components and structure of the new material are openly published in detail, suggesting that China is not attempting to covertly develop a new stealth fighter jet. However, if the material is as effective as advertised, it does indicate a significant advance in China's stealth technology, considered one of the most important aspects of modern warfare. 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...esearchers-develop-stealth-material-for-jets/

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## JSCh



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## Stealth

JSCh said:


> View attachment 434552



Much curious and desperate for this aircraft more than F22 Raptor. Finally the J31 V2 under testing. The latest picture of this predator. Pakistan Airforce has been waiting for this for a long time. Purely for PAF front line. PAF abandon J10A&B recruitment process even when China was ready to provide us on a soft-loans. Pakistan gearing up JF17 From V1 - V3 and heavily rely on F16 until this machine will officially available. This aircraft will independent Pakistan Airforce from the American one and only frontline military hardware F16 with ZERO string attached like JF17.

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## Akasa

JSCh said:


> View attachment 434552



Is this a recent test flight or an old image? Does anyone know if the FC-31's prospects on being a carrier-based aircraft have changed or not?


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## Gomig-21

I like the look of V1 much more than the look of V2. The canted tails on the v2 look a bit strange. I'm sure the design of 2 is much better and has improvements, but the look of 1 is much hotter IMO.


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## Umar.farooq.9

Once PAF chief said that PAF and CAC has good understanding we have worked together on JF17 ...and it's very possible that we may work with them in the future


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## Silicon0000

Is there any news about CAC single engine stealth Jet?


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## Figaro

Silicon0000 said:


> Is there any news about CAC single engine stealth Jet?


No such thing exists


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> No such thing exists



Why are You so sure ... or what's Your source on this?

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Why are You so sure ... or what's Your source on this?


The question is what evidence of a CAC single engine stealth jet? If there is none ... then we have to assume that such a project does not exist or is negligible.


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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Latest rumors: the so-called V3 model is actually a new FC-31 version that is going to compete with J-20 as the next generation aircraft carrier borne fighter (歼-31舰载型方案细节曝光 未来或与歼-20展开竞争)
> Credits to
> 
> 
> 
> angadow  2017-09-03 09:49:30




Here are many more images of the same model ...

https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2419708-1-1.html

Deino


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## UniverseWatcher

Deino said:


> Here are many more images of the same model ...
> 
> https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2419708-1-1.html
> 
> Deino

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## Deino

DjSmg said:


>




Thanks ... but I have a bit of a feeling that this is more a model-company - just look at the old H-5 in the background (second image) - and as such more a what-if than a real replica of a true project.

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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Thanks ... but I have a bit of a feeling that this is more a model-company - just look at the old H-5 in the background (second image) - and as such more a what-if than a real replica of a true project.



That's SAC Aviation Museum.

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> That's SAC Aviation Museum.



Thanks for the correction.


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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> That's SAC Aviation Museum.



Then, do you think that the carrier FC-31 is a real project?


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## 星海军事

SinoSoldier said:


> Then, do you think that the carrier FC-31 is a real project?



It's a concept.


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## Figaro

leapx said:


> View attachment 435442
> 
> *J-31 has the best stealth . it can avoid radar , it can make smoking to hide too.*
> 
> *Beautiful plane but I can't help making fun of this.*


FC-31 does not have the best stealth by any means. It also has those smoky engines due to those poor RD-93 engines ...


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## khanasifm

leapx said:


> View attachment 435442
> 
> *J-31 has the best stealth . it can avoid radar , it can make smoking to hide too.*
> 
> *Beautiful plane but I can't help making fun of this.*



Rd93 ?? With blue flame [emoji91] strange 

With jf in full ab there was no smoke so not sure what engine is this ?


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## Daniel808

khanasifm said:


> Rd93 ?? With blue flame [emoji91] strange
> 
> With jf in full ab there was no smoke so not sure what engine is this ?



It's only a Fake photo for trolling.

Like all we know, FC-31V2.0 use WS-13E Engine without any smoke at all when flying

They also already R&D Next-gen Engine for this one (WS-19 Engine) with 2D TVC

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## Ultima Thule

leapx said:


> View attachment 435442
> 
> *J-31 has the best stealth . it can avoid radar , it can make smoking to hide too.*
> 
> *Beautiful plane but I can't help making fun of this.*


fake and PS image

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## Han Patriot

leapx said:


> View attachment 435442
> 
> *J-31 has the best stealth . it can avoid radar , it can make smoking to hide too.*
> 
> *Beautiful plane but I can't help making fun of this.*


This is so funny...damn RDs . Why not send it to the Indians so they can jump around?

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## STRANGER BIRD

Underbelly comparison of the American F-35 on the left and the Chinese J-31 on the right. The notable difference is the twin engine package used to power the J-31 which also has a clean & flat belly as opposed to the F-35.

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## Stealth

STRANGER BIRD said:


> Underbelly comparison of the American F-35 on the left and the Chinese J-31 on the right. The notable difference is the twin engine package used to power the J-31 which also has a clean & flat belly as opposed to the F-35.




the Belly of J31 is similarly to F22 Raptor not F35


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## yusheng

2.0 under testing fly

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## Akasa

yusheng said:


> 2.0 under testing fly
> View attachment 435876
> View attachment 435877



How recent are these?


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## yusheng

SinoSoldier said:


> How recent are these?


very recent, but sorry i can not tell the exact time.


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## Akasa

yusheng said:


> very recent, but sorry i can not tell the exact time.



Thanks, if true then it signals that flight testing is picking up pace.


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## yusheng

yes,there are some progress made recently, if f31 could not enter the service it would be like X31, you know what X means.


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## Akasa

yusheng said:


> yes,there are some progress made recently, if f31 could not enter the service it would be like X31, you know what X means.



Possibly a precursor to a navalized fighter.


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## python-000

dose Pakistan also a part of this project ?


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## khanasifm

Daniel808 said:


> It's only a Fake photo for trolling.
> 
> Like all we know, FC-31V2.0 use WS-13E Engine without any smoke at all when flying
> 
> They also already R&D Next-gen Engine for this one (WS-19 Engine) with 2D TVC
> 
> View attachment 435453
> 
> View attachment 435454
> 
> View attachment 435455



Who can be so sick or free to go to such extend to troll 
Oh boy

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## leapx

khanasifm said:


> Who can be so sick or free to go to such extend to troll
> Oh boy


agreed。
But those dudes are very serious.


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## JSCh



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## leapx

python-000 said:


> dose Pakistan also a part of this project ?


Currently not.Even PLA do not get involved yet.

Pakistan may join TFX project.

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## Akasa

leapx said:


> Currently not.Even PLA do not get involved yet.
> 
> Pakistan may join TFX project.



There is still a chance that PLAN might select it as a carrier fighter.


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## python-000

leapx said:


> Currently not.Even PLA do not get involved yet.
> 
> Pakistan may join TFX project.


but why, it is a excellent stealthy platform for both countries & do you have any resource that Pakistan will join TFX with Turkey


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## Daniel808

python-000 said:


> but why, it is a excellent stealthy platform for both countries & do you have any resource that Pakistan will join TFX with Turkey



There is no one know in here, including him.

I am curious, if there is no potential buyer, why so many Test flight in recent months?
Why?

I hope Pakistan will joint this project soon, because FC-31 5th Gen Stealth Fighter project looks promising.

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## Daniel808

*Another amazing shot of Test Flight FC-31 5th Gen Stealth Fighter 






*

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## Akasa

Daniel808 said:


> *Another amazing shot of Test Flight FC-31 5th Gen Stealth Fighter
> 
> View attachment 436805
> 
> *



Is this yet another recent test flight or just a photo of the previous tests in the past week or two?


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## UniverseWatcher

Daniel808 said:


> *Another amazing shot of Test Flight FC-31 5th Gen Stealth Fighter
> 
> View attachment 436805
> 
> *


Inverted look of the picture gives it more detail or maybe i am losing my mind, anyway cheers

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## Han Patriot

Daniel808 said:


> *Another amazing shot of Test Flight FC-31 5th Gen Stealth Fighter
> 
> View attachment 436805
> 
> *


Clean and sleek.

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## Daniel808

DjSmg said:


> Inverted look of the picture gives it more detail or maybe i am losing my mind, anyway cheers
> View attachment 436941



@siegecrossbow From this photo, yes I am agree The weapon bay in FC-31 seems in the same size of main bay on J-20



Han Patriot said:


> Clean and sleek.



and Deadly

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## dy1022

python-000 said:


> but why, it is a excellent stealthy platform for both countries & do you have any resource that Pakistan will join TFX with Turkey




No, TFX is much better, according to turkish members in PDF even TFX exists on paper only!

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## Deino

dy1022 said:


> No, TFX is much better, according to turkish members in PDF even TFX exists on paper only!




Pardon to say so, but "according to turkish members" in nearly all forums the TFX is the BEST, the new 10t helicopter will be better than the NH-90, the ATAK-2 better than the Tiger, the new trainer better than any other T-X-contender .... some of them I think are on dope and whatever comes from them has to be taken with a rock of salt at best.

But be careful. The slightest form of critics is usually immediately condemned as anti-Turkish propaganda.

Deino

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## python-000

dy1022 said:


> No, TFX is much better, according to turkish members in PDF even TFX exists on paper only!


hmmm, why not China,Pakistan & Turkey can join on one project as a joint venture. Just my opinion

in the mean time J-31 is the best option for PAF hoop full for good


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## royalharris

python-000 said:


> hmmm, why not China,Pakistan & Turkey can join on one project as a joint venture. Just my opinion
> 
> in the mean time J-31 is the best option for PAF hoop full for good


Why JV?


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## -------

Deino said:


> Pardon to say so, but "according to turkish members" in nearly all forums the TFX is the BEST, the new 10t helicopter will be better than the NH-90, the ATAK-2 better than the Tiger, the new trainer better than any other T-X-contender .... some of them I think are on dope and whatever comes from them has to be taken with a rock of salt at best.
> 
> But be careful. The slightest form of critics is usually immediately condemned as anti-Turkish propaganda.
> 
> Deino



Perhaps you shouldn't enter discussions with children

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## Deino

Combat-Master said:


> Perhaps you shouldn't enter discussions with children




That's probably indeed my problem since I'm a teacher ... and sometimes I have the feeling we teach the kids too much to discuss their point of view instead of learning from the elder and wiser ones. 

Deino

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## python-000

royalharris said:


> Why JV?


because we are the most closest friends of each other in the whole world


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## rcrmj

forget about Turkey's 5th gen project. it is as realistic as India to become superpower in 2012````you just cant by pass the stage of accumulating necessary know-how, industrial mass and experience of developing, making 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen fighters to jump into 5th gen, period!

I can bet for 30 years they cant even make a working prototype



Deino said:


> Pardon to say so, but "according to turkish members" in nearly all forums the TFX is the BEST, the new 10t helicopter will be better than the NH-90, the ATAK-2 better than the Tiger, the new trainer better than any other T-X-contender .... some of them I think are on dope and whatever comes from them has to be taken with a rock of salt at best.
> 
> But be careful. The slightest form of critics is usually immediately condemned as anti-Turkish propaganda.
> 
> Deino


I am confidently to say that the landscape of defence industry complex and its technology development has nothing in "common" to most of their "believe"````nothing!

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## royalharris

rcrmj said:


> forget about Turkey's 5th gen project. it is as realistic as India to become superpower in 2012````you just cant by pass the stage of accumulating necessary know-how, industrial mass and experience of developing, making 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen fighters to jump into 5th gen, period!
> 
> I can bet for 30 years they cant even make a working prototype
> 
> 
> I am confidently to say that the landscape of defence industry complex and its technology development has nothing in "common" to most of their "believe"````nothing!


Truth hurts
our parkistan friends likes the words of TFX good great ......you can do it,it will come true in 10years, go go go

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## -------

rcrmj said:


> forget about Turkey's 5th gen project. it is as realistic as India to become superpower in 2012````you just cant by pass the stage of accumulating necessary know-how, industrial mass and experience of developing, making 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen fighters to jump into 5th gen, period!
> 
> I can bet for 30 years they cant even make a working prototype
> 
> 
> I am confidently to say that the landscape of defence industry complex and its technology development has nothing in "common" to most of their "believe"````nothing!



What difference are you to those you complain about. None in my books, you're just as petty. 

Turkey has accumulated more than you know; 1980s F-16 production in Turkey.


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## Beast

Combat-Master said:


> What difference are you to those you complain about. None in my books, you're just as petty.
> 
> Turkey has accumulated more than you know; 1980s F-16 production in Turkey.


Licensed production do not equal to design of a indigenous modern fighter jet. I hope people get their facts right.

You need a team specialise in aviation and running a complete fighter project. A modern high speed wind tunnel to verify your design concept. Production only helps you in the final stage of serial production and not making a own design.

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## The Eagle

Off-topic discussion need to be stopped here. 

Regards,

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## -------

From what I've read on FC-31, there is no clear indication that it will have supercruise ability.


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## leapx

Combat-Master said:


> From what I've read on FC-31, there is no clear indication that it will have supercruise ability.



Rafale and Typhoon could， Even JAS-39E could according to SAAB.

If we are talking about more than Mach 1 without afterburn. With a clean shape and similar thrust to rafaleFC-31 certainly can do that.

The problem is how long?

supercruise is meaningless if Mach is too low or reduce mission range too much. it will also cost more engine life.

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## -------

leapx said:


> Rafale and Typhoon could， Even JAS-39E could according to SAAB.
> 
> If we are talking about more than Mach 1 without afterburn. With a clean shape and similar thrust to rafaleFC-31 certainly can do that.
> 
> The problem is how long?
> 
> supercruise is meaningless if Mach is too low or reduce mission range too much. it will also cost more engine life.



I thought advantages of being able to supercruise without afterburners increases endurance, not having to dump fuel into the afterburner. I suppose it's more to do with engine output than with design. Is there any information as to when China will complete WS-13E - that extra 1,000lb of dry thrust might push FC-31 to Mach 1.5-8


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## leapx

Combat-Master said:


> I thought advantages of being able to supercruise without afterburners increases endurance, not having to dump fuel into the afterburner. I suppose it's more to do with engine output than with design. Is there any information as to when China will complete WS-13E - that extra 1,000lb of dry thrust might push FC-31 to Mach 1.5-8


Supercruise do not decrease endurance that much as afterburning.But it still decrease endurance/range significantly comparing to economic cruise.
Advantage of supercruise ： 
1 it will increase the speed of the weapon you fire. So you can hit target further and quicker. Especially when you use a parabola-trajectory missile or gliding guided bomb. 
2 engage and disengage quickly. it may outran enemy‘s missile, or precisely speaking reduce its effective range.

I do not know any information about WS-13E. Engine is probably the most difficult sub-system of all.

I doubt it can push FC-31 to mach 1.5 without afterburning.

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## -------

leapx said:


> Supercruise do not decrease endurance that much as afterburning.But it still decrease endurance/range significantly comparing to economic cruise.
> Advantage of supercruise ：
> 1 it will increase the speed of the weapon you fire. So you can hit target further and quicker. Especially when you use a parabola-trajectory missile or gliding guided bomb.
> 2 engage and disengage quickly. it may outran enemy‘s missile, or precisely speaking reduce its effective range.
> 
> I do not know any information about WS-13E. Engine is probably the most difficult sub-system of all.
> 
> I doubt it can push FC-31 to mach 1.5 without afterburning.



I understand. Such a great design with dual engines, looking forward to seeing project progress into production.


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## rcrmj

Combat-Master said:


> What difference are you to those you complain about. None in my books, you're just as petty.
> 
> Turkey has accumulated more than you know; 1980s F-16 production in Turkey.


you are as clueless ````I dont even know where to start to educated someone has no basic knowledge of how aviation and complicated industry works. Turkey is nobody in this field, its a fact, cant change by few licensed production line as you cluelessly claimed

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## Deino

FC-31 V1.0 spotted during final assembly ... spotted in a CCTV documentary on the J-15.







http://tv.cctv.com/live/cctv2/sd/index.shtml

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## yusheng

yes,

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## Muhammad Omar

They are making more Prototypes?


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## python-000

yusheng said:


> yes,
> View attachment 438467
> View attachment 438468
> View attachment 438469
> View attachment 438470
> View attachment 438471
> View attachment 438472
> View attachment 438473


in my opinion this is best prototype for production line



with this type of engine nozzle

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## Ultima Thule

python-000 said:


> in my opinion this is best prototype for production line
> View attachment 438496
> with this type of engine nozzle
> View attachment 438497


Convergent divergent nozzles

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## princefaisal

yusheng said:


> yes,
> View attachment 438467
> View attachment 438468
> View attachment 438469
> View attachment 438470
> View attachment 438471
> View attachment 438472
> View attachment 438473


Why FC-31 V1.0 still in assembly line when V2.0 is out?

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## Deino

princefaisal said:


> Why FC-31 V1.0 still in assembly line when V2.0 is out?




Come on !??? ... simply since it is an old image.


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/934044648183537664

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## STRANGER BIRD

*FC-31V2*

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## Han Patriot

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/934044648183537664


Smokeless engine...WS-13?


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## Deino



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## Stealth

Deino said:


> View attachment 439119
> View attachment 439120
> View attachment 439121


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## ZeEa5KPul

Deino said:


> View attachment 439119
> View attachment 439120
> View attachment 439121


It's hilarious that this person went to all this trouble to draw this beautiful, super-stealthified J-31 and then attached rocket pods to it.

Like using a Lamborghini to pick up groceries.

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## Deino

ZeEa5KPul said:


> It's hilarious that this person went to all this trouble to draw this beautiful, super-stealthified J-31 and then attached rocket pods to it.
> 
> Like using a Lamborghini to pick up groceries.



You are correct.
I think it's a whimsy, a tic or peculiarity ... I would almost say, obsession to put "911" on all this projects and also more than often these nasty rocket pods. He even draws Y-20, KJ-600, J-20 and whatever with them.

Anyway a nice CG.

Deino


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## Muhammad Omar

Deino said:


> View attachment 439119
> View attachment 439120
> View attachment 439121



Is it just me or the Engines look different just like the one F-22 has 

J-31 currently has those round ones


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## Beast

ZeEa5KPul said:


> It's hilarious that this person went to all this trouble to draw this beautiful, super-stealthified J-31 and then attached rocket pods to it.
> 
> Like using a Lamborghini to pick up groceries.



But it still get the job done, right?


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## cirr

https://weibo.com/tv/v/Fx2lvvIMD ... fafec1501c52475fc89

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/935141758924505088

Any confirmation or further details?

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## clarkgap

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/935141758924505088
> 
> Any confirmation or further details?



FC-31 v1 and v2.


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## Muhammad Omar

Are they comparing the performance of both versions??


another question is it just me or Trials of J-31 picked up pace after the announcement of Project Azm by PAF and Kamra Aviation city ???? Just a thought


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## cnleio

Deino said:


> View attachment 439119
> View attachment 439120
> View attachment 439121


The bird JUST need BETTER jet-engines like F119


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## monitor

* Latest photos of Shenyang J-31 *

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## Muhammad Omar

That Smoke


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## clarkgap

Muhammad Omar said:


> That Smoke



It is a CG made by Lovely_Swift. All aircrafts in his CG take a pair of rocket launcher.

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## Gomig-21

@Deino hope this isn't a repost.

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## Deino

Gomig-21 said:


> @Deino hope this isn't a repost.



It is indeed an old image from Zhuhai 2014 ... but anyway nice.

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## Deino

Deino said:


> It is indeed an old image from Zhuhai 2014 ... but anyway nice.




Would love to see the same scene updated with a Su-35 in PLAAF colours and FC-31V2.

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## Gomig-21

Deino said:


> Would love to see the same scene updated with a Su-35 in PLAAF colours and FC-31V2.



Indeed. Well, I joined the thread late so tough to tell if some of these pics have been posted, and far be it for anyone to cycle through 227 pages lol.

Can't wait to start seeing China produce this jet. Depending on what the eventual cost would be and how the Chinese will price this aircraft as well as what the total count for China would be, will determine the numbers of this machine in the foreign market. I'm sure everyone is thinking that this thing will be sold like hotcakes and that the Chinese will have to make several production lines just to handle orders. This has the potential to make the F-7 sales look like child's play.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/936972615637524480

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/936973142022672386

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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/936972615637524480
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/936973142022672386



How many FC-31V2 are there? If my memory serve right, didn't the V2 has a grey stealth paint?


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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> How many FC-31V2 are there? If my memory serve right, didn't the V2 has a grey stealth paint?




No, only one. That grey one was a model.


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## Muhammad Omar

How many more prototypes and Test will FC-31 need to enter the production line 

So many Flight test recently did it find the customer?


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## OguzSenturk

JSCh said:


> View attachment 436550



Looks like a very beautiful bird. Is J-31 started it's weapon tests?


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## Beast

Muhammad Omar said:


> How many more prototypes and Test will FC-31 need to enter the production line
> 
> So many Flight test recently did it find the customer?


It still need at least 4-5 prototypes to speed up the whole test. Rumor claim Pakistan has funded the project but I believe more funds are needed to speed it up.

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## Safriz

Beast said:


> It still need at least 4-5 prototypes to speed up the whole test. Rumor claim Pakistan has funded the project but I believe more funds are needed to speed it up.


Pakistan had to fund J-10B program but back then we had the super thief on the throne, Asif Zardari who persistently gobbled up 40% of PAF budget throughout his 5 year tenure.

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## Beast

شاھین میزایل said:


> Pakistan had to fund J-10B program but back then we had the super thief on the throne, Asif Zardari who persistently gobbled up 40% of PAF budget throughout his 5 year tenure.


J-10B dont need PAF funding. It is a fighter jet endorsed by PLAAF. China military are well funded, government endorsed projects basically needs no funding from foreign countries.

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## mzeeshanfahd

Deino said:


> Would love to see the same scene updated with a Su-35 in PLAAF colours and FC-31V2.
> 
> View attachment 440283


Seems like two different engines ....


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## Deino

python-000 said:


> Hmm, you are absolutely right but in the mean time Pakistan desperately needs a heavy fighter, so what can be a quickest ops for PAF, in Your opinion !!!



Can you continue this discussion in the PAF section please? Here it is irrelevant and off-topic.


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## Deino

*Guys ...  STOP this off topic-discussion: The PAF and its future fighters (if any) especially J-10B/C, Su-35 or any other fifth generation type besides the FC-31 are irrelevant in this thread. There are others in the PAF-section to continue.*

Thanks,
Deino


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## cirr

WS-19

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> View attachment 443321
> 
> 
> WS-19



Any updates on the WS-19's progress? What about the FC-31 program in general?


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## samsara

Should be made a poll here whether or not this aircraft will come into realization within some reasonable time frame knowing some highly sceptical opinions here do exist on its eventual progress into a final product  include as well its probability for a navalized version. Must be interesting 
。。。


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## yantong1980

cirr said:


> View attachment 443321
> 
> 
> WS-19



What? where?


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## clarkgap

The image of cockpit model of 4th generation fighter.

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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> The image of cockpit of FC-31 prototype.
> 
> View attachment 443886




To admit, IMO that does not look like a working cockpit, more like a mock-up.

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> To admit, IMO that does not look like a working cockpit, more like a mock-up.



The cockpit is working. Just take a look at the camera screen, the cockpit merely hasn't been installed in a jet yet.


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## cirr

003

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> 003



What does this mean? FC-31 has been selected for the basis of the next-generation PLAN fighter?


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## UniverseWatcher

Navy 4th generation carrier-based fighter image:


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## Pepsi Cola

SinoSoldier said:


> What does this mean? FC-31 has been selected for the basis of the next-generation PLAN fighter?



third prototype?


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> Even if it was already chosen as the next generation carrier fighter, for it to be on the first 003 is almost impossible. Maybe on later variants 10 years down the line ... but the development cycle is long. And so far, we haven't gotten the results of the next gen tender yet ...
> 
> 
> Cirr means the FC-31 will be navalized on the now in construction 003 CATOBAR carrier



Not necessarily; the current FC-31 prototype (#2) is more or less a close representation of what the final production variant will be. Modifications to the landing gear and wings for carrier operations will not take long and will probably be completed by the time the 003 is commissioned (~2023).

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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> ... Modifications to the landing gear and wings for carrier operations will not take long and will probably be completed by the time the 003 is commissioned (~2023).




... or were probably included into the design right from the beginning.


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> ... or were probably included into the design right from the beginning.



No, I don't think so; if you compare the planform of the FC-31 vs the F-35C, it's evident that further changes are still needed.


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## Ultima Thule

SinoSoldier said:


> No, I don't think so; if you compare the planform of the FC-31 vs the F-35C, it's evident that further changes are still needed.


No sir @Deino sir is absolutely on the spot, it has no wing folding mechanism, need to increase wing span/area, and rear of the fuselage should be redesigned according to carrier ops


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## Maxpane

hm


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## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> Not necessarily; the current FC-31 prototype (#2) is more or less a close representation of what the final production variant will be. Modifications to the landing gear and wings for carrier operations will not take long and will probably be completed by the time the 003 is commissioned (~2023).


I think it's overly optimistic to have the FC-31 (assuming it has already won the tender) to be operational on the first 003 carrier, which is set to launch in 2020. Maybe on later variants, but given PLAN conservatism and the developmental obstacles likely to come, I highly suspect J-15 CATOBAR variant will be the mainstay of carrier aviation for years to come. For the FC-31 to become the next generation carrier fighter, it needs to have suitable engines ... which the WS-13/RD-93 currently does not offer. 



Deino said:


> ... or were probably included into the design right from the beginning.


We don't have any evidence of that yet. Heck, we don't even have evidence the FC-31 has the edge in the naval tender. Last I heard, it seems that the J-20 has the edge ... unless the FC-31 finds suitable engines in time, I doubt its prospects. Besides, we have only seen the J-15 CATOBAR variant conducting tests on the steam and EM catapult ... no FC-31 yet.


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## 帅的一匹

J20 will not be on board.


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> I think it's overly optimistic to have the FC-31 (assuming it has already won the tender) to be operational on the first 003 carrier, which is set to launch in 2020. Maybe on later variants, but given PLAN conservatism and the developmental obstacles likely to come, I highly suspect J-15 CATOBAR variant will be the mainstay of carrier aviation for years to come. For the FC-31 to become the next generation carrier fighter, it needs to have suitable engines ... which the WS-13/RD-93 currently does not offer.



Assuming that the enlargement of its wings and addition of catapult-compatible landing gear takes until 2019 (it'll probably be sooner), the FC-31 would be good to go by the early 2020s, when the first Type 003 will likely be commissioned. The SAC development team has almost half a decade to modify the existing FC-31 design, which is already quite mature at this point, with technologies that have already been built and tested.



Figaro said:


> We don't have any evidence of that yet. Heck, we don't even have evidence the FC-31 has the edge in the naval tender. Last I heard, it seems that the J-20 has the edge ... unless the FC-31 finds suitable engines in time, I doubt its prospects. Besides, we have only seen the J-15 CATOBAR variant conducting tests on the steam and EM catapult ... no FC-31 yet.



There is no evidence suggesting that the PLAN has assessed the J-20 to have an "edge"; in fact, commentary from virtually all PLAN personnel suggests that they're heavily favoring the FC-31 over the J-20 (at least in their personal opinions). The prototype of the WS-19 engine (EJ200 equivalent) is under construction, with an expected entry-into-service date of 2022, which happens to be the projected commissioning date for the Type 003 and the IOC date for the FC-31 program.

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## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> Why? The J-20 can indeed be modified for carrier aviation ... and its developmental cycle is definitely more mature than that of the FC-31. We don't even know much about the latter's subsystems or stealth at all ...


FC31 is for type 003 carrier, still has five years to test. J20 fuselage is designed for high speed and air superiority, not for low speed landing and take off on carrier. More importantly, J20's canards is not close coupled like Rafale, it means it will perform no good in low speed. Further modification on fuselage will destroyed J20's advantage.

J20 is too big to have it in numbers on our new carrier.

If you shorten the J20, it will ruin it's canards/strake/delta wing aerodynamics configuration, which means it loose it's advantage.

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## Deino

pakistanipower said:


> No sir @Deino sir is absolutely on the spot, it has no wing folding mechanism, need to increase wing span/area, and rear of the fuselage should be redesigned according to carrier ops



You are indeed correct and sorry for the confusing post. I did not mean that the V2 in its current form is carrier-capable (that's for sure) but maybe its centre fuselage has already all necessary structural features to be carrier-capable so that a true V3-variant only needs larger wings and so on?

It was just an idea...

Deino

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> You are indeed correct and sorry for the confusing post. I did not mean that the V2 in its current form is carrier-capable (that's for sure) but maybe its centre fuselage has already all necessary structural features to be carrier-capable so that a true V3-variant only needs larger wings and so on?
> 
> It was just an idea...
> 
> Deino



I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case; even its landing gears have twin wheels which suggest potential carrier use in the future. It would still require extensive modification of the wings but perhaps not to the extent of F-35A vs F-35C.


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## ozranger

The so called FC-31 was selected news comes from 2 paid hype makers as I know. I don't know what their purpose is but they could deeply embarrass SAC fans later on. The major flaw in this story is that they stated FC-31 was also selected by PAF.

Official source from AVIC recently revealed that CAC has just started the design work on JF-17 Block III. While there is no sign that India will acquire F-35 or Su-57 very soon, why PAF would invest that big on such an immature aircraft together with ongoing hard work on JF-17 Block III at the same time?

Any Pakistani friends with credible information can correct me if I am wrong on it.

Further down the track, assuming PAF really picks FC-31, SAC would need to work on a land based version and a carrier based version simultaneously. In that case, what would be the priority for SAC?

Think about this, by the moment, FC-31 has only ONE prototype flying on each version respectively. Only an extremely low IQ would say its land based version is mature enough.

That means, Pakistan might need to pay big or even full for further development of this land based version. Does it sound financially reasonable?

I would rather bet on a JF-17 Block III with significantly reduced RCS instead of that FC-31 wins all shit. I think CAC is further modifying the fuselage now with strong stealth elements incorporated. That's why the importance of the new design work was stressed in the media.

Just like this one (photo from an event for CP members on the JF-17 project)

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## ozranger

I also noticed an interesting thing which shows some sign of relationship between PLAAF and SAC.

We all know that J-20 had gone through stealth tests in open space at 2 different places with stealth test facilities as there are clear satellite photos of it.

Recently SAC has published a public report which says they have completed building their own open space stealth test facilities in their own stealth test center.

The biggest question is why they can't just reuse those existing ones for J-20 testing, at most with some modification or improvement.

I guess all those existing facilities don't belong to AVIC. They should be solely owned by PLAAF. For some reason SAC just doesn't want to reuse them even though it should not be hard as they are a state owned company.

So at least we can know that PLAAF is not endorsing FC-31 at all.

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## Akasa

ozranger said:


> The so called FC-31 was selected news comes from 2 paid hype makers as I know. I don't know what their purpose is but they could deeply embarrass SAC fans later on. The major flaw in this story is that they stated FC-31 was also selected by PAF.
> 
> Official source from AVIC recently revealed that CAC has just started the design work on JF-17 Block III. While there is no sign that India will acquire F-35 or Su-57 very soon, why PAF would invest that big on such an immature aircraft together with ongoing hard work on JF-17 Block III at the same time?
> 
> Any Pakistani friends with credible information can correct me if I am wrong on it.
> 
> Further down the track, assuming PAF really picks FC-31, SAC would need to work on a land based version and a carrier based version simultaneously. In that case, what would be the priority for SAC?
> 
> Think about this, by the moment, FC-31 has only ONE prototype flying on each version respectively. Only an extremely low IQ would say its land based version is mature enough.
> 
> That means, Pakistan might need to pay big or even full for further development of this land based version. Does it sound financially reasonable?
> 
> I would rather bet on a JF-17 Block III with significantly reduced RCS instead of that FC-31 wins all shit. I think CAC is further modifying the fuselage now with strong stealth elements incorporated. That's why the importance of the new design work was stressed in the media.
> 
> Just like this one (photo from an event for CP members on the JF-17 project)
> View attachment 445747



Instead, I think that a low-RCS JF-17 Block III is a truly rudimentary mistake and quite an inappropriate idea. The JF-17 is inherently too small to incorporate internal or lateral weapons bays, which makes any significant RCS reductions to its airframes irrelevant. Furthermore, airframe constraints mean that any significant changes to it, such as during a RCS-optimized redesign, would essentially render it a new aircraft. The JF-17 is also unlikely to carry external stealthy weapons pods since the Chinese haven't developed any.

The news of PAF purchasing the FC-31 comes from a recent statement by a PAF official stating that they're planning the procurement and potential production of a 5th generation fighter, with many observers suspecting that the FC-31 is involved. A few notable PAF observers also claimed that Pakistani officials visited SAC factory during the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow.

I don't think developing both a land-based and carrier-based variant is out of the question since the bulk of the fuselage would be common between the two. In fact, Lockheed Martin had no problem manufacturing three different variants of the F-35.


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## ozranger

SinoSoldier said:


> Instead, I think that a low-RCS JF-17 Block III is a truly rudimentary mistake and quite an inappropriate idea. The JF-17 is inherently too small to incorporate internal or lateral weapons bays, which makes any significant RCS reductions to its airframes irrelevant. Furthermore, airframe constraints mean that any significant changes to it, such as during a RCS-optimized redesign, would essentially render it a new aircraft. The JF-17 is also unlikely to carry external stealthy weapons pods since the Chinese haven't developed any.
> 
> The news of PAF purchasing the FC-31 comes from a recent statement by a PAF official stating that they're planning the procurement and potential production of a 5th generation fighter, with many observers suspecting that the FC-31 is involved. A few notable PAF observers also claimed that Pakistani officials visited SAC factory during the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow.
> 
> I don't think developing both a land-based and carrier-based variant is out of the question since the bulk of the fuselage would be common between the two. In fact, Lockheed Martin had no problem manufacturing three different variants of the F-35.



Well the thing is there seems to be a V-tail JF-17 Block III now. The photo is so much more credible than those rumors and hypes you just mentioned.





The shape of the aft fuselage looks highly detailed and genuine.


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## Akasa

ozranger said:


> Well the thing is there seems to be a V-tail JF-17 Block III now. The photo is so much more credible than those rumors and hypes you just mentioned.



When have these images accurately reflected how an aircraft actually turned out to be? Take these PR photos with a grain of salt.

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## waja2000

Figaro said:


> I think it's overly optimistic to have the FC-31 (assuming it has already won the tender) to be operational on the first 003 carrier, which is set to launch in 2020. Maybe on later variants, but given PLAN conservatism and the developmental obstacles likely to come, I highly suspect J-15 CATOBAR variant will be the mainstay of carrier aviation for years to come. For the FC-31 to become the next generation carrier fighter, it needs to have suitable engines ... which the WS-13/RD-93 currently does not offer.
> ....



agree, i think FC-31 if want become navy version need slightly increase wing size to accommodate more fuel and folder wings.


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## Deino



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## Imran Khan

Deino said:


> View attachment 449051


seems like f-15 parked hehehe cool


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## Blue Marlin

Imran Khan said:


> seems like f-15 parked hehehe cool


what kind of f-15's are you looking at?

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> View attachment 449051



Surprised to see the built quality... rough and hard... looks similar to Knight Hawk


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## Beethoven

@Deino how true are the rumours that the second prototype of FC-31 is powered by the WS-19 and if it is true then can the same be used to power the JF-17 block 3??????


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## Deino

Beethoven said:


> @Deino how true are the rumours that the second prototype of FC-31 is powered by the WS-19 and if it is true then can the same be used to power the JF-17 block 3??????




Highly unlikely, IMO impossible since the WS-19 has just reported as being build in prototype form (nor sure, need some help/confirmation). So there are reports about being powered by the WS-13, but surely not by the WS-19.

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## Gomig-21

Imran Khan said:


> seems like f-15 parked hehehe cool



Looks a lot more like the back of the F-35 with the exception of the dual nozzles. Similar landing gear, smooth back and spine, canted tails and H-stabs. But from the front and the side, it resembles the F-22 quite distinctly.

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## Deino

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/TU01666

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## python-000

bro one question, what is the status of CAC & PAC cooperation about J-31 any updates ?


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## Deino

nothing known yet ... only rumours.


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## python-000

Deino said:


> nothing known yet ... only rumours.


Thank you sir for your kind & quick reply but i am soooo curious about this J-31 deal for Pakistan.

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## cirr

$>>J-XX/FC-31

J-21? J-25? J-.......

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## AmirPatriot

Deino said:


> View attachment 449051


Hang on... twin nose gear? Why? What makes the nose so heavy? Even the F-15E with its twin seat cockpit doesn't have twin nose gear. Nor the big, heavy Su-27.

Maybe you could say this aircraft is designed with carrier capability in mind, but surely they wouldn't waste weight and have a separate carrier variant with just two nose wheels, like on the Su-33.






Curious.


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## cirr

J-35?


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> J-35?



I think it's a joke.
The rumor has been posted before.


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## Deino

royalharris said:


> 香蕉人




Care to pots in English please!?


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## cirr

tick tock, tick tock......


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## Beethoven

cirr said:


> tick tock, tick tock......


@cirr any new updates?????


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> tick tock, tick tock......



Any clue as to when the carrier-based FC-31 version might roll out?


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## 52051

Akasa said:


> Any clue as to when the carrier-based FC-31 version might roll out?



The rumor has already dispelled, the 601 and their buddies tried their best to force(through their connection in AVIC leadership etc) the PLAN accept their FC-31 in a closed-door deal and the PLAN still reject that, instead they prefer J-20 navy version or some new heavy weight twin engine fighters in an open-bidding. Like I said before, due to the wide adoption of long range anti-ship missiles it is almost a crime to try to use a medium weight short range fighter as your backbone of the fleet defence.

The US has made a bigly yuge mistake of picking F-35 as their only navy fighter, it is best to take full advantage of their mistakes, instead of repeating their mistakes to help them get even, which is borderline treason.

And basically now FC-31 is only a hull and given the history of 601/SAC (PLAN lost two pilots of J-15 due to crap flight control system designed by 601), it is only reasonable to believe that chance are, the PLAN will try their best to avoid any more carrier-based fighter from 601/SAC.

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## clarkgap

52051 said:


> The rumor has already dispelled, the 601 and their buddies tried their best to force(through their connection in AVIC leadership etc) the PLAN accept their FC-31 in a closed-door deal and the PLAN still reject that, instead they prefer J-20 navy version or some new heavy weight twin engine fighters in an open-bidding. Like I said before, due to the wide adoption of long range anti-ship missiles it is almost a crime to try to use a medium weight short range fighter as your backbone of the fleet defence.
> 
> The US has made a bigly yuge mistake of picking F-35 as their only navy fighter, it is best to take full advantage of their mistakes, instead of repeating their mistakes to help them get even, which is borderline treason.
> 
> And basically now FC-31 is only a hull and given the history of 601/SAC (PLAN lost two pilots of J-15 due to crap flight control system designed by 601), it is only reasonable to believe that chance are, the PLAN will try their best to avoid any more carrier-based fighter from 601/SAC.



Please, do not take regional discrimination to this thread. South and North are both good Chinese Design Bureau. And the leader of AVIC had been replaced.

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> The rumor has already dispelled, the 601 and their buddies tried their best to force(through their connection in AVIC leadership etc) the PLAN accept their FC-31 in a closed-door deal and the PLAN still reject that, instead they prefer J-20 navy version or some new heavy weight twin engine fighters in an open-bidding. Like I said before, due to the wide adoption of long range anti-ship missiles it is almost a crime to try to use a medium weight short range fighter as your backbone of the fleet defence.
> 
> The US has made a bigly yuge mistake of picking F-35 as their only navy fighter, it is best to take full advantage of their mistakes, instead of repeating their mistakes to help them get even, which is borderline treason.
> 
> And basically now FC-31 is only a hull and given the history of 601/SAC (PLAN lost two pilots of J-15 due to crap flight control system designed by 601), it is only reasonable to believe that chance are, the PLAN will try their best to avoid any more carrier-based fighter from 601/SAC.



We can't be sure since there are still rumors (coming from sensor suppliers and such) that the PLAN prefers an enlarged version of the FC-31 design. However, there has been no indication, rumored or otherwise, that the PLAN prefers a J-20 variant or a larger airframe.


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## 52051

Akasa said:


> We can't be sure since there are still rumors (coming from sensor suppliers and such) that the PLAN prefers an enlarged version of the FC-31 design. However, there has been no indication, rumored or otherwise, that the PLAN prefers a J-20 variant or a larger airframe.



Actually there are rumor from a very creditable source suggesting the later.And common sense suggesting chance are pretty little the PLAN would prefer a underfunded under-developed FC-31 over J-20, especially given SAC's track record.

PLAN can put twin-engine heavy fighter on a small CV like Liaoning, it must be pure fantasy that they would rather settle for less for their much larger nucluear-powered EM-launching CV with a medium weighted fighter.

And no, AVIC cannot force PLAN to buy FC-31, espeically considering the fact now Yang Wei is one of the only two scientists from military industry that become standing member of central commitee, and you have already seen the power of such position in the case of replacing steam-powered launcher with EM launcher in Type-002, so FC-31's chance is estentially zero.

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> Actually there are rumor from a very creditable source suggesting the later.And common sense suggesting chance are pretty little the PLAN would prefer a underfunded under-developed FC-31 over J-20, especially given SAC's track record.
> 
> PLAN can put twin-engine heavy fighter on a small CV like Liaoning, it must be pure fantasy that they would rather settle for less for their much larger nucluear-powered EM-launching CV with a medium weighted fighter.
> 
> And no, AVIC cannot force PLAN to buy FC-31, espeically considering the fact now Yang Wei is one of the only two scientists from military industry that become standing member of central commitee, and you have already seen the power of such position in the case of replacing steam-powered launcher with EM launcher in Type-002, so FC-31's chance is estentially zero.



Where is the original rumor from, can you link me to it? Both heavy and medium-weight fighters have their own distinct set of advantages and disadvantages; neither you nor I know what sort of balance the PLAN chooses between having additional range or being able to carry more fighters per vessel.

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## 帅的一匹

52051 said:


> Actually there are rumor from a very creditable source suggesting the later.And common sense suggesting chance are pretty little the PLAN would prefer a underfunded under-developed FC-31 over J-20, especially given SAC's track record.
> 
> PLAN can put twin-engine heavy fighter on a small CV like Liaoning, it must be pure fantasy that they would rather settle for less for their much larger nucluear-powered EM-launching CV with a medium weighted fighter.
> 
> And no, AVIC cannot force PLAN to buy FC-31, espeically considering the fact now Yang Wei is one of the only two scientists from military industry that become standing member of central commitee, and you have already seen the power of such position in the case of replacing steam-powered launcher with EM launcher in Type-002, so FC-31's chance is estentially zero.


it's weird.


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## Silicon0000

I think naval version should be a multirole type instead of air superiority with ability of low level flight so can someone give a light who fit more in this case navalized J20 or bigger version of J31 with better engine.

advantages and disadvantages of their shape?


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## 52051

Akasa said:


> Where is the original rumor from, can you link me to it? Both heavy and medium-weight fighters have their own distinct set of advantages and disadvantages; neither you nor I know what sort of balance the PLAN chooses between having additional range or being able to carry more fighters per vessel.



Here you are: https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2457489

You need a really good grasp of Chinese language to understand what he says here, btw.


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## 帅的一匹

Why they just enlarge the fuselage of FC31 and fit it with two powerful WS10x engine?

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## UKBengali

wanglaokan said:


> Why they just enlarge the fuselage of FC31 and fit it with two powerful WS10x engine?



Yep you can always enlarge it like they did with the Super Hornet.

I do not think it can be enlarged so much that it can hold WS-10X but the WS-13X 5th generation engine will be powerful enough and long-ranged for carrier operations in the Asia-Pacific. The J-20 just seems too big to put on a carrier.

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## 帅的一匹

UKBengali said:


> Yep you can always enlarge it like they did with the Super Hornet.
> 
> I do not think it can be enlarged so much that it can hold WS-10X but the WS-13X 5th generation engine will be powerful enough and long-ranged for carrier operations in the Asia-Pacific. The J-20 just seems too big to put on a carrier.


J20 is just too big for carrier.


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## UKBengali

wanglaokan said:


> J20 is just too big for carrier.



Better to have 50 enlarged J-31s than 36-40 J-20s on a carrier.

I do not understand why they are not following this route and just use cut-down avionics from J-20 like the radar etc.

The reason why the F-35 too so long and was so complex was they wanted to make a completely different aircraft to F-22. An enlarged J-31 that took everything from the J-20 bar the engines would not be too costly and highly advanced air-plane that could be delivered quite quickly.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> J20 is just too big for carrier.




How could it be too big if it is actually shorter and less wide than a J-15???

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## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> J20 is just too big for carrier.


Dude. The J-20 is smaller than the J-15 ... how is it "too big" for a carrier??? Really, where does this J-20 is "too large for carrier operations" originate from ...

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> Here you are: https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2457489
> 
> You need a really good grasp of Chinese language to understand what he says here, btw.



Thanks for the link. We discussed this very rumor a few days ago on this forum and SDF, and the consensus among members is that it really doesn't tell us much since there are multiple ways to interpret this rumor (a poem or riddle, actually).


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## 52051

Akasa said:


> Thanks for the link. We discussed this very rumor a few days ago on this forum and SDF, and the consensus among members is that it really doesn't tell us much since there are multiple ways to interpret this rumor (a poem or riddle, actually).



Maybe there are many way to interpret it, but there will only be one reasonable way to interpret the rumor, if you understand Chinese well, and be familiar with Chinese weapons.

If you find another way to interpret it, tell me and I will tell you where the illogical part of your interpretion is.

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> Maybe there are many way to interpret it, but there will only be one reasonable way to interpret the rumor, if you understand Chinese well, and be familiar with Chinese weapons.
> 
> If you find another way to interpret it, tell me and I will tell you where the illogical part of your interpretion is.



The members at SDF think that the rumor is hinting at a twin-seat J-20 variant, while also stating that it's a "good idea" to develop a naval J-20. And apparently there are a lot of references to the _Three Body Problem_ novel.


----------



## 52051

Akasa said:


> The members at SDF think that the rumor is hinting at a twin-seat J-20 variant, while also stating that it's a "good idea" to develop a naval J-20. And apparently there are a lot of references to the _Three Body Problem_ novel.



The rumor also make it quite clear that eventually the J-20 beat up FC-31 in the end.

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> The rumor also make it quite clear that eventually the J-20 beat up FC-31 in the end.



Interesting, would you mind highlighting the part where that is claimed? Sure, the J-20 might have beat the FC-31 for the PLAAF contract, but is the rumor specifically referring to the PLAN?


----------



## 52051

Akasa said:


> Interesting, would you mind highlighting the part where that is claimed? Sure, the J-20 might have beat the FC-31 for the PLAAF contract, but is the rumor specifically referring to the PLAN?



The cjdby mod has hide the original topic, show me the sinondefence link I will highlight the sentence basically tell you the decision is J-20 instead of FC-31

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> The cjdby mod has hide the original topic, show me the sinondefence link I will highlight the sentence basically tell you the decision is J-20 instead of FC-31



Thanks 



> 北海哥哥，我怀孕了
> 
> 额额，这~~~可你还没有毕业
> 
> 没关系，生儿育女是女人的任务，其他都是臆造的
> 是资产阶级民主制度所虚构的
> 我会和学校解释清楚这件事情的，放心好了，北海哥哥，不会影响到你的，也应该不会影响我在军校毕业，这种事情现在虽然不常见，但也并非没有
> 
> 好吧，那我动用执行舰长权利，给你换一个舱室吧，你觉得31号舱怎么样，那里靠近舰首，有巨大的舷窗，很漂亮温馨，又是单人 舱室
> 
> 我不，我要和你在一起，再说为什么不用20号舱室呢，改一改就行了呀
> 
> 因为这是我的决定（那里靠近逃生舱）更何况，你既然怀孕了我们又不能做什么了，乖
> 
> 谁说的，没有什么比生理本能的需求更纯洁的，我们要充分享受爱的力量
> 
> 
> 呵呵，只是为了让你安心养胎
> 
> 没关系啦，新时代的医学制度已经证明那样更有利于胎儿的发展
> 
> 好吧，听你的，等一下，三体星人的探测器还有多久到达
> 
> 嗯，我听学姐们说，大概还有22天就能到达海王星轨道附近，那个时候我们就要出发去拦截了
> 
> 好吧，我知道了，你觉得蓝色空间的舰长褚岩怎么样
> 
> 为什么问他呢？
> 
> 我是想说，如果在拦截的过程中，有什么意外，你一定要去找他
> 
> 难道你不打算带我一起去么？
> 
> 本来是打算的，但现在你有了我们的孩子，就应该，乖，听我的安排，女人抛弃现在的男人是为了寻求强者
> 爱是神圣和牢固的，难道在床上和自己的男人，管他是第几个呢，要彻底摆脱羞耻感，这也是臆造的，更何况这是我的命令
> 
> ……虽然难以接受，但既然你这么说，我照办就是了
> 
> 呵呵，你们危机纪元的孩子，也这么矜持了么
> 
> 不是，只是有点难过，但蓝色空间号并没有我们的自然选择号强大呀，我们有96万吨，巡航速度可以达到10%光速，极速可以达到18%，部署位置又在木星轨道，燃料补给是最优先的
> 
> 这和燃料补给有什么关系
> 
> 我虽然不说，但别以为我不知道你想做什么
> 
> …………你说什么
> 
> 没什么，我都听你的安排
> 
> 附录，绝密！党卫军区队长花花.冯.色雷尔的个人档案
> 纯血地球人，女，最高领袖的个人生活秘书，
> 危机190年出生，
> 特色蓝星主义亚洲舰队共产党危机206年党员，
> 性格开朗坚定，乐观积极，对同志温柔体贴，
> 工作中组织能力极强，而对人类的敌人毫不留情，
> 运动员，蓝色空间号游泳冠军，
> 受到过国父章北海的亲自指导
> ，并受到过褚岩最高领袖的勋章。
> 未婚，情人们得人选都是经过党组织严密考察过的纯血地球人。
> 与国父北海育有一子，名曰召忠。


----------



## 52051

Akasa said:


> Thanks



Check the highlighted text:


> 我会和学校解释清楚这件事情的，放心好了，北海哥哥，不会影响到你的，也应该不会影响我在军校毕业，这种事情现在虽然不常见，但也并非没有
> 
> 好吧，那我动用执行舰长权利，给你换一个舱室吧，你觉得31号舱怎么样，那里靠近舰首，有巨大的舷窗，很漂亮温馨，又是单人 舱室
> 
> * 我不，我要和你在一起，再说为什么不用20号舱室呢，改一改就行了呀
> 
> 因为这是我的决定（那里靠近逃生舱）更何况，你既然怀孕了我们又不能做什么了，乖
> 
> 谁说的，没有什么比生理本能的需求更纯洁的，我们要充分享受爱的力量
> 
> 
> 呵呵，只是为了让你安心养胎
> 
> 没关系啦，新时代的医学制度已经证明那样更有利于胎儿的发展
> 
> 好吧，听你的*


----------



## python-000

what happened to the J-31 threat there so much silence around hare


----------



## BHarwana

FC 31 V2 1/2


















FC-31 V2 2/2


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## Deino

BHarwana said:


> FC 31 V2 1/2



Huu ... are you so much desperate that you already post old images only to keep that thread alive?


----------



## BHarwana

Deino said:


> Huu ... are you so much desperate that you already post old images only to keep that thread alive?



No the thread was dead and project is giving no updates. Ever since the J-20 became live every one is forgetting FC-31 lol. The Images are not that old.

I will find new images and info on the FC-31.

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## Deino

BHarwana said:


> No the thread was dead and project is giving no updates. Ever since the J-20 became live every one is forgetting FC-31 lol. The Images are not that old.
> 
> I will find new images and info on the FC-31.



Depends on what you call "not old" !? I have them since November 14/15 and December 2. Anyway ... me too I'm eager for news and I ask myself when SAC finally will paint V2? ... maybe for Zhuhai?

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## BHarwana

Deino said:


> Depends on what you call "not old" !? I have them since November 14/15 and December 2. Anyway ... me too I'm eager for news and I ask myself when SAC finally will paint V2? ... maybe for Zhuhai?



I have was a landing trail video of FC-31 2.0 from April 2017


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## Deino

BHarwana said:


> ...
> I will find new images and info on the FC-31.



Those who kindly ask will be give ... 

FC-31V1 under construction (see two-parts canopy)






FC-31V2 under construction (single-piece canopy)






Allegedly from this video:

https://v.qq.com/x/page/j05544bcy07.html?

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## BHarwana

Deino said:


> Those who kindly ask will be give ...
> 
> FC-31V1 under construction (see two-parts canopy)
> 
> View attachment 454340
> 
> 
> FC-31V2 under construction (single-piece canopy)
> 
> View attachment 454341
> 
> 
> Allegedly from this video:
> 
> https://v.qq.com/x/page/j05544bcy07.html?



Thank you for the update. 

Okay looking at the changes what I can under stand is that China has finalized the jet design and tested it well but the reason for production delay in my understanding is that now they are working to convert the design into modular design so that Industrial scale production can be done and plus the repairs and overhaul can also be easy for the jets. If you look at the differences in V1 and V2 they are modular and not physical.


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## 帅的一匹

BHarwana said:


> Thank you for the update.
> 
> Okay looking at the changes what I can under stand is that China has finalized the jet design and tested it well but the reason for production delay in my understanding is that now they are working to convert the design into modular design so that Industrial scale production can be done and plus the repairs and overhaul can also be easy for the jets. If you look at the differences in V1 and V2 they are modular and not physical.


This jet is so hot! I just lovin it.

FC31V2 is far bigger than I thought it will be.

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## monitor



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## Deino

monitor said:


>



wrong thread and already posted !??


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## python-000

wanglaokan said:


> This jet is so hot! I just lovin it.
> 
> FC31V2 is far bigger than I thought it will be.


Thank you soo much to keep this thread alive again

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## 52051

Some source in CJDBY (I don't know how reliable it is) claimed that, there is no future of FC-31 in PLAAF, the PLAAF simply don't want it.

But since PLAAF has occupied all J-20's order so far, the PLAN, which has a lot of money in hand, want to invest in FC-31 as a backup plan, however in the end they still prefer an open bidding, which may involve FC-31 and other fighters, but still if the news is real, it is still a good news for FC-31, since finally they get the much needed source of investment.

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## Akasa

52051 said:


> Some source in CJDBY (I don't know how reliable it is) claimed that, there is no future of FC-31 in PLAAF, the PLAAF simply don't want it.
> 
> But since PLAAF has occupied all J-20's order so far, the PLAN, which has a lot of money in hand, want to invest in FC-31 as a backup plan, however in the end they still prefer an open bidding, which may involve FC-31 and other fighters, but still if the news is real, it is still a good news for FC-31, since finally they get the much needed source of investment.



To be honest, nobody expected the PLAAF to be interested in the first place. However, recent rumors from sensor suppliers and a few "big shrimps" are implying that the PLAN is going for an enlarged fighter based on the FC-31.


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## Beast

Akasa said:


> To be honest, nobody expected the PLAAF to be interested in the first place. However, recent rumors from sensor suppliers and a few "big shrimps" are implying that the PLAN is going for an enlarged fighter based on the FC-31.


FC-31 is not a small plane. I will say the size is just nice for carrier. If they want a J-20 size onboard carrier sounds abit too far. If anything bigger, it might limit the number of plane carry onboard.

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## Akasa

Beast said:


> FC-31 is not a small plane. I will say the size is just nice for carrier. If they want a J-20 size onboard carrier sounds abit too far. If anything bigger, it might limit the number of plane carry onboard.



It's not about the overall size of the FC-31, it's that its wings are not large enough to provide sufficient lift during a CATOBAR takeoff. An enlarged FC-31 would have changes mainly in the wings and landing gear.

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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> FC-31 is not a small plane. I will say the size is just nice for carrier. If they want a J-20 size onboard carrier sounds abit too far. If anything bigger, it might limit the number of plane carry onboard.


Its a size of super hornet but @Akasa is right fc31 must have bigger wing area/wing span to increase its lift for carrier operations just like F35C has sir


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## Beast

pakistanipower said:


> Its a size of super hornet but @Akasa is right fc31 must have bigger wing area/wing span to increase its lift for carrier operations just like F35C has sir


FC-31 is design in mind with EM catapult of Type002 carrier. F-18 with not so big lift wing still can take maxload from carrier. All thanks to steam catapult.

In the PLAN context, they want to make FC-31 bigger is more for longer payload of weapon and range rather than just increase wingspan for lifting alone. The overall size increas of FC-31 is their intention.

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## Ultima Thule

Beast said:


> FC-31 is design in mind with EM catapult of Type002 carrier. F-18 with not so big lift wing still can take maxload from carrier. All thanks to steam catapult.
> 
> In the PLAN context, they want to make FC-31 bigger is more for longer payload of weapon and range rather than just increase wingspan for lifting alone. The overall size increas of FC-31 is their intention.


But what is the purpose of increasing the wing area/span of F35 C any opinion sir


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## Beast

pakistanipower said:


> But what is the purpose of increasing the wing area/span of F35 C any opinion sir


That will depend on final user what they want, increase lift, fuel? But the increase also need to take into consideration of RCS since we are talking about 5th gen fighters. It will be very complicated.

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## Akasa

Another riddle about the FC-31, this time from "梁无咎" (not sure how credible he/she is). Could somebody decipher it to the best of their ability?



> 海思花落我婶这件事尽管很多军迷认为古鸟腿短而为此抓狂。事实上所长一开始也认为海思会是南北合研，不过可能忽略了灰龙，双手互博不是常人所具备的。古鸟这个庶出的娃子雄心万丈，落选控思后又极力推荐给小巴与中东某驼，不过在朱掌的黑烟令这些买家望而生畏。2.0在原设计上做了大部分修改，（这里说一个题外话，古鸟2.0这个概念说法最早是本所长说的，好几年前了，弹射鲨不会批厂这个观点也是军网上本所长第一个提出来的），除了外形布局，雷达系统也用了最高标配。之前一些军坛大神根据捕风捉影的消息宣称灰龙会上舰，所长当时就粗来辟谣了。机身设计使然=灰龙不可能上舰。本来男欢后来也推过一个海思版本，不过不是灰龙的兄弟，是以前准备外贸的储备样板，后来睡狮说，双手互博会分心，专心倒腾乃们滴灰龙阿逼西吧。言外之意海思基本只留给下一家。到了002这个点才觉得时间紧迫，到底要拉什么鸡？后面大致和所长猜测的一样，与十六号共享鸡鸡啦吧。003本来也想拉弹射鲨，不过弹射鲨随着灰沙的几次世故让人心灰意冷，而且周边的妖魔鬼怪三五阿逼西好像一夜之间全部都上班了，弹射鲨整体给人感觉太单薄了。所以丫注定只是测试鸡，搞了好几架吧，算做补充世故的灰沙也入编了。不过在002上也是常规起降，木有弹弓助推专业不对口。以古鸟为蓝本的海思现在根据时间算，在003粗来后大致也形成战力了。003应该在2020-2021入役，比之米帝在周边横行的三五逼西也不算太晚，至于性能现在还不好推测。海思现在按体型标准属于中型鸡鸡，上次看了古鸟与千十一毕的合影，感觉卧槽也太小了，这是要上演小鬼扳城隍？而且四颗破烂的数量感觉也太少了。不知道增粗前轮液压杆+尾钩后会成为什么怪物，想想都觉得好恐怖


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## clarkgap

Akasa said:


> Another riddle about the FC-31, this time from "梁无咎" (not sure how credible he/she is). Could somebody decipher it to the best of their ability?



梁无咎 just reprints others' content, and he always does not write provenance.


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## jaybird

Akasa said:


> Another riddle about the FC-31, this time from "梁无咎" (not sure how credible he/she is). Could somebody decipher it to the best of their ability?



He basically said FC-31 will be the PLAN 5th gen fighter and some people are not too happy with the choice because of the short-legged(Combat range) of the jet. In the past, he also thought China's 5th generation carrier borne stealth fighter project will be develop jointly by Chengdu and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC). But it turns out SAC won the government funding for a FC-31 carrier version.

After FC-31 lost competition to J-20 for the PLAAF endorsement in 2008. SAC tried to market the FC-31 to Pakistan and certain middle eastern country. But the black smoke from the RD-93 engines scare the customers away in 2014 Zhuhai Airshow. Since no foreign buyers showed firm interest in the project, SAC improved the desgin of JF-31 to version 2.0 afterward with better stealth design, IRST and better radar etc...

Due to the design shaping of J-20, he never thought J-20 is an ideal choice for carrier borne stealth fighter. Chengdu did propose a design for the 5th gen carrier borne competition. It's not "brother of the J-20". But some different design that was reserved for foreign market. But higher up thought it's better for Chengdu to just concentrate on J-20.

Supposedly they were planning to use J-15A on 003 carrier as well. But was disappointed with it due to some incidents. Plus surrounding countries are getting 5th generation fighters or soon getting them. J-15A (CATOBAR version) no longer adequate to deal with the future new threats. So, J-15A destined to be just trial version not meant to be for mass production. 

Not my words, just a rough translation.

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## 帅的一匹

jaybird said:


> He basically said FC-31 will be the PLAN 5th gen fighter and some people are not too happy with the choice because of the short-legged(Combat range) of the jet. In the past, he also thought China's 5th generation carrier borne stealth fighter project will be develop jointly by Chengdu and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC). But it turns out SAC won the government funding for a FC-31 carrier version.
> 
> After FC-31 lost competition to J-20 for the PLAAF endorsement in 2008. SAC tried to market the FC-31 to Pakistan and certain middle eastern country. But the black smoke from the RD-93 engines scare the customers away in 2014 Zhuhai Airshow. Since no foreign buyers showed firm interest in the project, SAC improved the desgin of JF-31 to version 2.0 afterward with better stealth design, IRST and better radar etc...
> 
> Due to the design shaping of J-20, he never thought J-20 is an ideal choice for carrier borne stealth fighter. Chengdu did propose a design for the 5th gen carrier borne competition. It's not "brother of the J-20". But some different design that was reserved for foreign market. But higher up thought it's better for Chengdu to just concentrate on J-20.
> 
> Supposedly they were planning to use J-15A on 003 carrier as well. But was disappointed with it due to some incidents. Plus surrounding countries are getting 5th generation fighters or soon getting them. J-15A (CATOBAR version) no longer adequate to deal with the future new threats. So, J-15A destined to be just trial version not meant to be for mass production.
> 
> Not my words, just a rough translation.


The engine development still lag behind, it restrain designer to fully tap their talent.
Until now, WS15's condition is unknown. We need genius like Ma Wei Ming in aero-engine industry.

SAC is a bunch of idiot without any long term plan.

A stealthy fighter with smoky engine can't fool any customers.

I don't hope the goverment give the carrier-borne fighter contract to SAC just because they need to be taken care of.


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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> The engine development still lag behind, it restrain designer to fully tap their talent.
> Until now, WS15's condition is unknown. We need genius like Ma Wei Ming in aero-engine industry.
> 
> SAC is a bunch of idiot without any long term plan.
> 
> A stealthy fighter with smoky engine can't fool any customers.
> 
> I don't hope the goverment give the carrier-borne fighter contract to SAC just because they need to be taken care of.



Engine manufacturers are separate from aircraft manufacturers, just so you know.


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## 帅的一匹

Akasa said:


> Engine manufacturers are separate from aircraft manufacturers, just so you know.


First you shall have an capable engine, then you talk about the development of a new fighter jet. Out engine always comes later.


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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> First you shall have an capable engine, then you talk about the development of a new fighter jet. Out engine always comes later.



Then the issue lies with the engine supplier, not with the aircraft designer. The capabilities and configuration required of the aircraft are decided by its customer, not the designer.


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## 帅的一匹

Akasa said:


> Then the issue lies with the engine supplier, not with the aircraft designer. The capabilities and configuration required of the aircraft are decided by its customer, not the designer.


Why SAC can't make a dual engine design with WS10 series at the first place?

For export.

Our military export policy is holding back too much. While others promoting fighters like Gripen and Rafale, we are doing it with J10A?!

Still the production rate of WS10 hinders it.

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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> Why SAC can't make a dual engine design with WS10 series at the first place?
> 
> For export.
> 
> Our military export policy is holding back too much. While others promoting fighters like Gripen and Rafale, we are doing it with J10A?!
> 
> Still the production rate of WS10 hinders it.



Because size, weight, and capability requirements dictate otherwise?


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> The engine development still lag behind, it restrain designer to fully tap their talent.
> Until now, WS15's condition is unknown. We need genius like Ma Wei Ming in aero-engine industry.
> 
> SAC is a bunch of idiot without any long term plan.
> 
> A stealthy fighter with smoky engine can't fool any customers.
> 
> I don't hope the goverment give the carrier-borne fighter contract to SAC just because they need to be taken care of.


This article talks about pre 2014 where WS-13 is not used yet. The new FC-31 V2 used a new smokeless engine which is totally different from RD-93. But from what I know, even the WS-13 with thrust of more than 9000kg is still not enough for PAF and PLAAF requirement. They are aiming for a WS-13E which has thrust of more than 10000kg or 11000kg.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.popsci.com/amp/j-31-stealth-fighter-improved-prototype


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## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> The engine development still lag behind, it restrain designer to fully tap their talent.
> Until now, WS15's condition is unknown. We need genius like Ma Wei Ming in aero-engine industry.
> 
> SAC is a bunch of idiot without any long term plan.
> 
> A stealthy fighter with smoky engine can't fool any customers.
> 
> I don't hope the goverment give the carrier-borne fighter contract to SAC just because they need to be taken care of.


Not exactly. Aeroengine industry is one of the most difficult in any military complex. It is arguably much harder than even Ma Weiming’s electromagnetic field. The fact that China managed to go from having a WS-9/WS-6 engine to the WS-10 is nothing short of a miracle ... which we have to thank Shenyang for. And this is even more surprising when the WS-10 core is based on a early 70’s civilian engine core. For those lamenting about the WS-10’s failures, I will remind them that the WS-10 is being used on the J-11B, J-16, J-15T, J-20, and the Y-20 (in the very near future). Last year, we even saw a J-10 equipped with a special TVC WS-10 variant, which is quite an accomplishment because TVC reduces thrust by up to 15% and demands high reliability. Just because there is little news on the WS-15 shouldn’t mean much; it is still in development and hence very secretive, just like the WS-10 in the early 2000’s. It’s development cycle is completely normal for an aeroengine and I wouldn’t be surprised that it takes a little longer given that the engine is supposed to compete with the Type 30, F-135 and F-119. Flight testing should start relatively soon assuming that they’ve wrapped up ground testing. As for the FC-31 with smoky engines, that is attributed to the Russian RD-93, not a Chinese engine. In fact, the FC-31V2 does not have any smoky engines at all due to its Chinese WS-13.



Beast said:


> This article talks about pre 2014 where WS-13 is not used yet. The new FC-31 V2 used a new smokeless engine which is totally different from RD-93. But from what I know, even the WS-13 with thrust of more than 9000kg is still not enough for PAF and PLAAF requirement. They are aiming for a WS-13E which has thrust of more than 10000kg or 11000kg.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.popsci.com/amp/j-31-stealth-fighter-improved-prototype


The WS-13 I believe has already had its first flight back in July 2016 ... even so, I don’t think they need to swap out JF-17 engines due to a steady stream of Russian RD-33s, which perform decently.


----------



## Deino

Maybe just to not pick or play devil's advocate... the JF-17 and FC-31 use RD-93, not -33. And if you look at some images showing V2 during take off, it is still very much a dirty engine. In my opinion the WS -13 will never be a decent modern powerplant ...

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## MiG-35-BD

Deino said:


> Maybe just to not pick or play devil's advocate... the JF-17 and FC-31 use RD-93, not -33. And if you look at some images showing V2 during take off, it is still very much a dirty engine. In my opinion the WS -13 will never be a decent modern powerplant ...



There is only so much that the design can do. While I agree with you Deino, it brings in the depressing thought that the FC-31 is meaningless without a better engine. Which may be why PAF has chosen to start the Azm project rather than buy the FC-31.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Maybe just to not pick or play devil's advocate... the JF-17 and FC-31 use RD-93, not -33. And if you look at some images showing V2 during take off, it is still very much a dirty engine. In my opinion the WS -13 will never be a decent modern powerplant ...


Not sure how truth is it but v1 produce plenty of dirty smoke thru out the whole flight while v2 produces little smoke during take off but thru out the flight flying, Virtually no smoke produce. Many view has agree it is a new engine installed for V2. Smoke produced during initial take off is ok but not during flight especially dog fight.

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## 帅的一匹

MiG-35-BD said:


> There is only so much that the design can do. While I agree with you Deino, it brings in the depressing thought that the FC-31 is meaningless without a better engine. Which may be why PAF has chosen to start the Azm project rather than buy the FC-31.


AZM might not base on FC31, who knows?

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> AZM might not base on FC31, who knows?


I think the problem with export FC-31 is not so much on engine or design but rather many promise technology from J-20, will it be able to export as promise by Shenyang? W/o these system clear for export or a water down but still capable export available. It is very hard to convince customers to endorse it.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> I think the problem with export FC-31 is not so much on engine or design but rather many promise technology from J-20, will it be able to export as promise by Shenyang? W/o these system clear for export or a water down but still capable export available. It is very hard to convince customers to endorse it.


With a capable engine, FC31 is a good design without any doubt.


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## Deino

Seems as if V1 + V2 were flying together today!?

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## yusheng




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## lcloo

YAK-141 technology should be available to China if China is developing a STVL jet fighter. After all, Russia had sold the technology to USA for development of F-35B STVL engine.

STVL = Short Takeoff Vertical Landing.


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## Deino

yusheng said:


> ...




A nice CG - esp. the Type 075 - but IMO a pure fan-art or what-if.

To redesign the FC-31 with one STOVL-engine and turn it into STOVL-fighter is making de facto a new fighter ... which IMO is more likely.

Deino


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## jaybird

Deino said:


> Seems as if V1 + V2 were flying together today!?
> 
> View attachment 459317
> View attachment 459318



Yes, your picture caption mention maybe is a demonstration for a customer if the video was taken recently.(Not for PLANAF)

Can also see V1 with black smoke coming out of the engines, and V2 without smoke if you watch the video.

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## Deino

jaybird said:


> Yes, your picture caption mention maybe is a demonstration for a customer if the video was taken recently.(Not for PLANAF)
> 
> Can also see V1 with black smoke coming out of the engines, and V2 without smoke if you watch the video.




Here's the video:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/973994285115813890

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## Deino

PS: There's an interesting post at the SDF adding some interesting hints thru the commentary provided by Angadow...



> *Angadow:* if this happened in the last few days, it's probably because a potential client was evaluating it
> *Someone:* navy?
> *Angadow:* PLAN has already finished with their evaluations!



So, who could be this potential client if it is not the PLAN? 
Pakistan, Saudis?

By the way, wasn't there a report that NA decided to make a fly-off between both naval contenders?

Deino

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## Akasa

Any idea who might've been evaluating the FC-31 during its recent test flight? It resumed test flights after a two-month-long break.


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## Beast

Akasa said:


> View attachment 459576
> 
> 
> Any idea who might've been evaluating the FC-31 during its recent test flight? It resumed test flights after a two-month-long break.


I think the biggest problem of FC-31 accepted by buyer is the lack of side weapon bay for WVR. They want a F-22 style rather than following F-35.


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## ozranger

Flying 2 different versions simultaneously for client evaluation is nonsense. Also not very few people noticed the energy bleeding problem from the video. It appears that the v2 aircraft ignited the after burners during the turn for quite a while, and the turn is not a tight turn at all.

I am always amazed by the energy sustainability of J-20. Obviously FC-31 is far behind J-20 and the video clip looks to be a clear evidence.


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## Beethoven

I must say i find the airframe of FC-31 more appealing than the J-20....all it needs is a decent powerplant...once found it can give the J-20 a run for its money


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## monitor

* Two China's FC31 fighter plane appear in test flights *


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## 帅的一匹

Beethoven said:


> I must say i find the airframe of FC-31 more appealing than the J-20....all it needs is a decent powerplant...once found it can give the J-20 a run for its money


Not even close

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## Beethoven

wanglaokan said:


> Not even close


May be....but you have to agree with me on this....the J-20 would be an overkill for the PAF....its beyond its requirements....FC-31 perfectly fits the bill for the PAF...


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## 帅的一匹

Beethoven said:


> May be....but you have to agree with me on this....the J-20 would be an overkill for the PAF....its beyond its requirements....FC-31 perfectly fits the bill for the PAF...


It depends on how much the customers and Chinese navy willing to invest in Fc31 development.
With enough money poured in, it can give very good performance.

Hit and run is the game rule of the 5th gen fighters, means stealthy and super cruise are the most important things.

Let's see what WS19 engine can bring us.

The stealthy feature of FC31 V2 (especially the front part) is top class.

Another problem is policy restraint, how many J20's tech can be adopted on FC31?


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## Beethoven

wanglaokan said:


> It depends on how much the customers and Chinese navy willing to invest in Fc31 development.
> With enough money poured in, it can give very good performance.
> 
> Hit and run is the game rule of the 5th gen fighters, means stealthy and super cruise are the most important things.
> 
> Let's see what WS19 engine can bring us.
> 
> The stealthy feature of FC31 V2 (especially the front part) is top class.
> 
> Another problem is policy restraint, how many J20's tech can be adopted on FC31?


Two very valid points in your reply....I for one have been a proponent of using the WS-19 on the FC-31...its the best bet that we have on the table right now...and for the second part transfer of J-20 tech should not be a problem if the launch customer is Pakistan considering the relationship that we share with each other....


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## Brainsucker

so which has bigger power, 1 WS-10 or 2 WS-13? And which is bigger, J-10 or FC-31?


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## Ultima Thule

Brainsucker said:


> so which has bigger power, 1 WS-10 or 2 WS-13? And which is bigger, J-10 or FC-31?


calculate yourself 2 * 19420 LBS =38,840 and 1 = 27,000- 31,000 based on different variants and FC-31 is bigger 57 feet whereas J-10 has a length of 50 feet google yourself @Brainsucker


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## BHarwana

FC-31 V2

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## waja2000

Just ask opinion, If FC-31 single seat version make hard for PLAN select it? Carrier figther usually prefer with 2 seat version fighter right ? maybe SAC need built twin seat demo version ?


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## ozranger

waja2000 said:


> Just ask opinion, If FC-31 single seat version make hard for PLAN select it? Carrier figther usually prefer with 2 seat version fighter right ? maybe SAC need built twin seat demo version ?



There is more serious problem on the current design, in regards to drag, lift and engine power.

First of all it's not following supersonic area ratio very well. The main wings locate at a position that the fuselage has no shrinkage in size. Therefore the drag cannot be small when the aircraft's speed goes high.

The fuselage can not shrink in size at that main wings' position because it has to contain a big internal weapon bay. But to minimize the weight, the designer cannot further extend the fuselage to create shrinkage as that of F-22's aft fuselage. You may ask why they can't make the aircraft longer and hence heavier? Because the engines are mid thrust engines (RD-93 or WS-13) and will be significantly under-powered if the fuselage goes any larger.

F-22




FC-31





As the engines are mid thrust engines, the fuselage has to be designed to have the main wings coupling with the very straight fuselage because of the internal weapon bay. Then high drag is unavoidable and energy bleeding can be quite visible when the aircraft maneuvers.

To maintain acceptable energy level, the aircraft's after burners were engaged quite often during some high profile demo flights, which received a lot of criticism as the fuel consumption looks very high. FC-31, as a stealth fighter, is not supposed to be used like a Mig-29, which is a typical front line fighter with a very short combat radius.

There is no sight of further development of FC-31 so far. No one has spotted the third FC-31 prototype plane yet. In comparison, for J-20 during its 6 year development cycle, CAC built at lease 2 prototype planes in a batch in every 2 years.


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## Ultima Thule

ozranger said:


> There is more serious problem on the current design, in regards to drag, lift and engine power.
> 
> First of all it's not following supersonic area ratio very well. The main wings locate at a position that the fuselage has no shrinkage. Therefore the drag cannot be small when the aircraft's speed goes high.
> 
> The fuselage can not shrink at that main wings' position because it has to contain a big internal weapon bay. But to minimize the weight, the designer cannot further extend the fuselage to create shrinkage as that of F-22's aft fuselage. You may ask why they can't make the aircraft longer and hence heavier? Because the engines are mid thrust engines (RD-93 or WS-13) and will be significantly under-powered if the fuselage goes any larger.
> 
> As the engines are mid thrust engines, the fuselage has to be designed to have the main wings coupling with the very straight fuselage because of the internal weapon bay. Then high drag is unavoidable and energy bleeding can be quite visible when the aircraft maneuvers.
> 
> To maintain acceptable energy level, the aircraft's after burners were engaged quite often during some high profile demo flights, which received a lot of criticism as the fuel consumption looks very high. FC-31, as a stealth fighter, is not supposed to be used like a Mig-29, which is a typical front line fighter with a very short combat radius.


are you referring to whit-comb Area rule fuselage buddy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_rule


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## ozranger

pakistanipower said:


> are you referring to whit-comb Area rule fuselage buddy
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_rule



Sort of. I have to admit I have no profession on such topics. I was only aggregating the ideas from some Internet reviews on the FC-31 design.

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## Ultima Thule

ozranger said:


> Sort of. I have to admit I have no profession on such topics. I was only aggregating the ideas from some Internet reviews on the FC-31 design.


definitely you're talking whit-comb area rule buddy but look at the picture of J-20 and FC-31 both jets have whit-comb area rule fuselage buddy










ozranger said:


> Sort of. I have to admit I have no profession on such topics. I was only aggregating the ideas from some Internet reviews on the FC-31 design.


specially V-2 has a area rule fuselage to reduce drag that is you talking about buddy

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## ozranger

pakistanipower said:


> definitely you're talking whit-comb area rule buddy but look at the picture of J-20 and FC-31 both jets have whit-comb area rule fuselage buddy
> View attachment 460873
> View attachment 460874
> 
> 
> 
> specially V-2 has a area rule fuselage to reduce drag that is you talking about buddy



I think you'd better compare them with photos of real planes

F-22




J-20




F-35




FC-31




Obviously FC-31 doesn't follow the rule very well. If it can use a single engine like F-35, things would be much better. That doesn't mean F-35's aerodynamics is of any good. F-35 is also pretty sluggish when maneuvering because of some other factors. However FC-31's current design is even worse.

BTW J-20 might follow the rule the best with its canard delta wing configuration. With twin high thrust engines its supersonic performance must be pretty good.


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## Akasa

Navalized FC-31. Anyone know the source of this CG?

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## Abdul salam farooqi

Deino said:


> Here's the video:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/973994285115813890


The smoke is coming from the v2


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## Deino



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## Beethoven

Deino said:


> View attachment 466706


The airframe is perfect....just gotta find the right engines to power up this baby...


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## Akasa

Can someone translate the following rumor? Allegedly a V2.0 prototype had undergone static stress tests.






Much appreciated!


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## 帅的一匹

Akasa said:


> Can someone translate the following rumor? Allegedly a V2.0 prototype had undergone static stress tests.
> 
> View attachment 467384
> 
> 
> Much appreciated!


泄密


----------



## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> 泄密


Unbelievable...
Maybe fake news

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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> Unbelievable...
> Maybe fake news


Those bastards


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## Maxpane

What is written in chinese?


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## Ultima Thule

wanglaokan said:


> 泄密


Please translate sir


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## jaybird

Probably just trolling post by the people who don't like SAC. "It roughly says according anonymous Net source, FC-31 version 1.0 is not a very stealthy Jet that even J-10C's radar cross-section is better except from the frontal 60 degree angle. Also stronger signal when leading edge flap is moving compared to J-10C. And that FC-31 version 2.0 is critically overweight, structural integrity failed miserably within 24 hours and have to stop under static stress test. Basically FC-31 got LCAed by this poster. *lol*

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## 帅的一匹

jaybird said:


> Probably just trolling post by the people who don't like SAC. "It roughly says according anonymous Net source, FC-31 version 1.0 is not a very stealthy Jet that even J-10C's radar cross-section is better except from the frontal 60 degree angle. Also stronger signal when leading edge flap is moving compared to J-10C. And that FC-31 version 2.0 is critically overweight, structural integrity failed miserably within 24 hours and have to stop under static stress test. Basically FC-31 got LCAed by this poster. *lol*


SAC is less innovation motivated, but they are not that stupid as they claim.

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## samsara

Deino said:


> View attachment 466706


In case someone wanna read further in the original Chinese link given in Deino's related tweet:
http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1900545-1-1.html


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/985603205747920896

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## 帅的一匹

The development of turbo fan engine had hit a bottleneck, we need to develop new fuel to replace gas.
Sixth gen, sevenths gen doesn't matter, they are all the same without new concept powerplant and fuel.


----------



## python-000

samsara said:


> In case someone wanna read further in the original Chinese link given in Deino's related tweet:
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1900545-1-1.html
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/985603205747920896


Boy, this fighter jet is dam good is there any chances that PAF going to inducted 2 or 3 squadrons of these ???


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## Dante80

wanglaokan said:


> The development of turbo fan engine had hit a bottleneck, we need to develop new fuel to replace gas.
> Sixth gen, sevenths gen doesn't matter, they are all the same without new concept powerplant and fuel.



That really won't work, even in the mid-term. The last time someone tried to replace JP fuel, they went into a remarkably expensive 15 year journey into the Boranes until they found out that it simply did not make much sense. 

Stay the course.


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## Gomig-21

Deino said:


> View attachment 466706



So does V2 actually have side bays or just the belly ones? It's hard to tell in that pic there, but in this one it looks like a pair of much smaller side bays, but then again, those could also be the delineation of access panels.


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## Ultima Thule

Gomig-21 said:


> So does V2 actually have side bays or just the belly ones? It's hard to tell in that pic there, but in this one it looks like a pair of much smaller side bays, but then again, those could also be the delineation of access panels.


i think its just a landing gear bays @Gomig-21 sir


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## Gomig-21

pakistanipower said:


> i think its just a landing gear bays @Gomig-21 sir


 
I think the landing gear panels are a bit further back. The ones I'm referring to are in that area space between that landing gear panel and the intake.

You can see that space better here. Hard to tell if even that area could house a weapon's bay anyway, it's probably too small being so close to the intake opening. But those lines in the other pic look very much like those of WB doors.


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## Deino

Actually I don't think so.


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## Gomig-21

Deino said:


> Actually I don't think so.



You're probably right, but the straight outline is oddly similar to a rectangular WB opening. But the line in between, though, is not straight and at more at an angle.


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## JSCh



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## Maxpane

JSCh said:


>


New pic sir?


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## Akasa

JSCh said:


>



Any idea how recent this photo is?


----------



## JSCh

Maxpane said:


> New pic sir?





Akasa said:


> Any idea how recent this photo is?


Probably not recent. It is posted in a forum. In a collection of pictures to commemorate international worker day which is yesterday(1st may).


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## LKJ86

@Akasa

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 471540



So there were indeed two FC-31V1 prototypes? ... one additional static test airframe?


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 471536
> View attachment 471537
> View attachment 471538
> View attachment 471539
> View attachment 471540
> View attachment 471541
> View attachment 471542
> View attachment 471543
> 
> 
> @Akasa



Good stuff. I'm looking forward to the naval prototype which is rumored to fly by the end of 2019.


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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1617093763/4235641576821010














https://m.weibo.cn/1617093763/4235640553640905

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## 帅的一匹

Top notch manufacturing technique.

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## Maxpane

I dnt get it


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## LKJ86



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## JSCh

From weibo, one of the photo in the photobook.

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## Muhammad Omar

So more J-31 V2 prototype are under assembly lines


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## Deino

Muhammad Omar said:


> So more J-31 V2 prototype are under assembly lines



No ... these are old images from 2013 and all clearly show V1 only. Just look at the two-part canopy.

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## Maxpane

Any news about planf interest in this jet? Does paf has any interest ?


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## Deino

Maxpane said:


> Any news about planf interest in this jet? Does paf has any interest ?



I think it is much too early to know. We now have after years of rumors only now got some harder facts. Anyway this could mean anything: was it cancelled and thrrefore allowed to be leaked? Or is it. Lose to a certain milestone? ... 

And - honestly - why mentioning the PAF? If they can get the FC31 they could be lucky but a stealthy striker is at leat for the moment as likely as the German Luftwaffe will have a functioning air force again.


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## Maxpane

Deino said:


> I think it is much too early to know. We now have after years of rumors only now got some harder facts. Anyway this could mean anything: was it cancelled and thrrefore allowed to be leaked? Or is it. Lose to a certain milestone? ...
> 
> And - honestly - why mentioning the PAF? If they can get the FC31 they could be lucky but a stealthy striker is at leat for the moment as likely as the German Luftwaffe will have a functioning air force again.


Thank you sir


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## Deino

FC-31V1 showing its weapon bays ... no smaller side bays !

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> FC-31V1 showing its weapon bays ... no smaller side bays !
> 
> View attachment 471676


Is there anything new?


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## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> Is there anything new?


No just telling @Gomig-21 that there are no side bays on FC-31V2 @LKJ86 bro

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## LKJ86

pakistanipower said:


> No just telling @Gomig-21 that there are no side bays on FC-31V2 @LKJ86 bro


Thanks, bro.


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## 帅的一匹

JSCh said:


> From weibo, one of the photo in the photobook.


What is that thing behind the rack? A stealthy bomber?


----------



## Ultima Thule

wanglaokan said:


> What is that thing behind the rack? A stealthy bomber?


Where can tell me sir @wanglaokan


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## 帅的一匹

pakistanipower said:


> Where can tell me sir @wanglaokan


I am also eager to know....


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## Gomig-21

pakistanipower said:


> No just telling @Gomig-21 that there are no side bays on FC-31V2 @LKJ86 bro



Indeed, bro. Side walls beyond the divertless intakes seem rather thin to be able to house a bay deep enough for a missile or two. BUT............but......that was V1 not V2! 

If there were a few pretty radical changes from V1 to V2, then there still is the possibility, although unlikely.
Too bad the interior of the intakes are shaded and we can't see the shape of the ducting. I bet that they angle drastically, at least certainly upward to make room for the belly weapons bay and also eventually to the center of the fuselage to make room for the landing gear wheels. All those things have to go into that area as well, so the ducting needs to S-shape rather drastically for not only RCS reduction, but out of necessity to make room for the LG and the weapons bay.

This is an interesting pic showing some of what's inside those side, access panels.






The other reason why I asked if there was another weapons bay is that a single, belly one can only house so many weapons. It needs more bays to carry more weapons like both, the F-35, F-22 and J-20. But it seems to have rather long, very long belly bay doors. Not sure what that means, if weapons will be stacked front and rear like the PAK-FA but withing a single bay. PAK-FA has forward and aft doors, so two separate bays while the FC-31V2 has this single, VERY long weapons bay.

The other remarkable thing is how close the front of the doors are to the intake openings. That definitely suggest the duct ramps up drastically from the intake opening.

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## samsara

Just a kind reminder to ALL here who spoke aloud and in adamant fashion previously, even annoying repetitively, acted as the kind of guy who knows everything, please stay away from such bold, excessive speculative, groundless imposition [in future, incl for other issues]... that J-31 / FC-31 would see DEAD END (unless it finds export customer)   ...  maintaining some humility doesn't hurt indeed

*Xi Jinping and FC-31*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/992076325367287808

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Published on November, 2013


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## ozranger

The release of those photos strongly suggests that FC-31 development has approached its end.


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## Deino

ozranger said:


> The release of those photos strongly suggests that FC-31 development has approached its end.



Or just the start into another lease of life!?

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## ozranger

Deino said:


> Or just the start into another lease of life!?



Unless we can see the next prototype built and flying very shortly, otherwise the project seems pretty much gone.


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## samsara

ozranger said:


> Unless we can see the next prototype built and flying very shortly, otherwise the project seems pretty much gone.


Or simply like the existence of the J-15D (or so), the public saw the pictures only when the time was ripe for it  But not anytime sooner prior to it.

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## LKJ86

FC-31 V1 & V2

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## Muhammad Omar

So J-31 is progressing


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## 帅的一匹

Muhammad Omar said:


> So J-31 is progressing


They still struggle for PLAN's order.


----------



## waja2000

Will see J-21 V2 in zhuhai airshow this year ?

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## Figaro

I think the FC-31 definitely deserves a chance for the PLAN naval tender. Its size and layout make it ideal for carrier operations, in contrast to a navalized J-20 variant. And the 0.05 m^2 RCS is very decent as well for a VLO fighter. Overall, the future of the FC-31 is getting brighter and brighter as more features get added.



ozranger said:


> Unless we can see the next prototype built and flying very shortly, otherwise the project seems pretty much gone.


Give it a chance. The FC-31V2 is a much more capable version of the original FC-31 ... any future upgrade would be even better.

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## deep_blue

waja2000 said:


> Will see J-21 V2 in zhuhai airshow this year ?


excuse me sir....is that a typing mistake or there is a new type of aircraft ???


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## LKJ86



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## Cookie Monster

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 479516
> 
> SAC gets the orders of FC-31 from PLAAF.


Is that official news? I can't read Chinese but that Doge emoji in the tweet makes me think that it's some sort of a joke.


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## LKJ86

Cookie Monster said:


> Is that official news? I can't read Chinese but that Doge emoji in the tweet makes me think that it's some sort of a joke.


No official news.


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## Cookie Monster

LKJ86 said:


> No official news.


So PLAAF didn't order FC31?


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## LKJ86

Cookie Monster said:


> So PLAAF didn't order FC31?


Maybe it will.


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 479516



How credible/reliable is this guy? How did you arrive at your conclusion from the text that he posted?


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## Tsubodai

Well if the PLAN is to get a stealthy Fighter that is not based on the FC-31, we could be waiting a while


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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1617093763/4250432337025891

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 480084
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/1617093763/4250432337025891



What is he saying about the FC-31? YF-21 and YF-31 are what, exactly?

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## 帅的一匹

中国战斗机的设计都是被发动机研发滞后拖累，就是他妈晚上不睡觉也要搞出来啊。不管什么手段都要搞出来。所有对研发掣肘的体制都要裁撤，改革，合并。

要是涡扇15能早几年成功，丝带低端机直接单引擎配置就好了。天天各种八股文材料突破，涡扇15还是遥遥无期。

把发动机放在北方搞本身就是个错误，东北人能干活母猪都能上树。

各种官僚，裙带，不思进取。


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## Ultima Thule

wanglaokan said:


> 中国战斗机的设计都是被发动机研发滞后拖累，就是他妈晚上不睡觉也要搞出来啊。不管什么手段都要搞出来。所有对研发掣肘的体制都要裁撤，改革，合并。
> 
> 要是涡扇15能早几年成功，丝带低端机直接单引擎配置就好了。天天各种八股文材料突破，涡扇15还是遥遥无期。
> 
> 把发动机放在北方搞本身就是个错误，东北人能干活母猪都能上树。
> 
> 各种官僚，裙带，不思进取。


Translation please


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## +1S

wanglaokan said:


> 中国战斗机的设计都是被发动机研发滞后拖累，就是他妈晚上不睡觉也要搞出来啊。不管什么手段都要搞出来。所有对研发掣肘的体制都要裁撤，改革，合并。
> 
> 要是涡扇15能早几年成功，丝带低端机直接单引擎配置就好了。天天各种八股文材料突破，涡扇15还是遥遥无期。
> 
> 把发动机放在北方搞本身就是个错误，东北人能干活母猪都能上树。
> 
> 各种官僚，裙带，不思进取。


hahaha


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## LKJ86



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## Beethoven

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 481189


Beauty...

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## +1S

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 481189


The engine compartment destroys the beauty. 期待WS19


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## 帅的一匹

+1S said:


> The engine compartment destroys the beauty. 期待WS19


WS19 engine is going well. FC31 will be a beast flying with it.


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## Beethoven

wanglaokan said:


> WS19 engine is going well. FC31 will be a beast flying with it.


any updates on the WS 19


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## 帅的一匹

Beethoven said:


> any updates on the WS 19


simulated altitude test stage

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## python-000

Hi Brothers; I want to know that is there any chances of Pakistan to get or inducted these beautiful & deadly birds in PAF fleet !!!!


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## GeraltofRivia

wanglaokan said:


> 中国战斗机的设计都是被发动机研发滞后拖累，就是他妈晚上不睡觉也要搞出来啊。不管什么手段都要搞出来。所有对研发掣肘的体制都要裁撤，改革，合并。
> 
> 要是涡扇15能早几年成功，丝带低端机直接单引擎配置就好了。天天各种八股文材料突破，涡扇15还是遥遥无期。
> 
> 把发动机放在北方搞本身就是个错误，东北人能干活母猪都能上树。
> 
> 各种官僚，裙带，不思进取。


Is this your comment or from internet?


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## 帅的一匹

GeraltofRivia said:


> Is this your comment or from internet?


my comment


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## JSCh

From weibo, screen capture of a program in CCTV military channel.

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## LKJ86

JSCh said:


> From weibo, screen capture of a program in CCTV military channel.


It looks like this one:

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## LKJ86

@wanglaokan

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Guys ... PLEASE add a translation!!!

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Guys ... PLEASE add a translation!!!


There is some conflicting information from two important sources. So, no translation.
Wait a few more months.


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> There is some conflicting information from two important sources. So, no translation.
> Wait a few more months.



Thanks ... but as usual, patience is really not MY virtue.


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## ozranger

Deino said:


> Guys ... PLEASE add a translation!!!



Hi Deino,

From my point of view you can just ignore the guy called "pb****". He is a well known SAC affiliate. So the more credible information comes from "gongke". He is known working in the aircraft engine industry, although no one can confirm that. Some of his past posted information was validated by later development anyway. 

What he tried to say includes the following key points,

1. The Chief (or Deputy Chief) of PLAN visited SAC. SAC flew both versions of FC-31 to make up a demo for him, for which I believe you watched that video before.

2. The Chief of PLAN praised FC-31 highly, so SAC staff were very excited and almost planned a celebration. However, The Chief of Navy couldn't promise the adoption. So the SAC people had to visit the Navy's Warfare R&D Institute for further information, therefore were cooled down by the peer feedback.

3. The land based naval fighter selection seems to be J-20.

In another post, he mentioned that CAC has announced to attend the competition for carrier based fighter aircraft.

It sounds quite weird to me that SAC staff could be excited just because they received some praise. For the past 2 generations of fighters for PLAAF, ie. J-10 and J-20, all competing aircraft developers needed to go through official bidding processes. Although they couldn't afford to make real aircraft for the competition, they were required to produce massive amount of test and calculated data to indicate strength and weakness of their designs. I think there will be no exception for this new generation of carrier based fighters and SAC cannot rely on personal praise to win as they will have to go through the bidding.

BTW I don't really believe personal praise is a thing important in the Chinese culture. Chinese people are quite used to praising others in the public just for making interpersonal relationship smooth, which is not necessarily a sign of liking.

One thing which could intrigue many outsiders is whether SAC and CAC will be required to make real aircraft to attend the bidding processes. That will be quite interesting.

Cheers

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## Akasa

ozranger said:


> Hi Deino,
> 
> From my point of view you can just ignore the guy called "pb****". He is a well known SAC affiliate. So the more credible information comes from "gongke". He is known working in the aircraft engine industry, although no one can confirm that. Some of his past posted information was validated by later development anyway.
> 
> What he tried to say includes the following key points,
> 
> 1. The Chief (or Deputy Chief) of PLAN visited SAC. SAC flew both versions of FC-31 to make up a demo for him, for which I believe you watched that video before.
> 
> 2. The Chief of PLAN praised FC-31 highly, so SAC staff were very excited and almost planned a celebration. However, The Chief of Navy couldn't promise the adoption. So the SAC people had to visit the Navy's Warfare R&D Institute for further information, therefore were cooled down by the peer feedback.
> 
> 3. The land based naval fighter selection seems to be J-20.
> 
> In another post, he mentioned that CAC has announced to attend the competition for carrier based fighter aircraft.
> 
> It sounds quite weird to me that SAC staff could be excited just because they received some praise. For the past 2 generations of fighters for PLAAF, ie. J-10 and J-20, all competing aircraft developers needed to go through official bidding processes. Although they couldn't afford to make real aircraft for the competition, they were required to produce massive amount of test and calculated data to indicate strength and weakness of their designs. I think there will be no exception for this new generation of carrier based fighters and SAC cannot rely on personal praise to win as they will have to go through the bidding.
> 
> BTW I don't really believe personal praise is a thing important in the Chinese culture. Chinese people are quite used to praising others in the public just for making interpersonal relationship smooth, which is not necessarily a sign of liking.
> 
> One thing which could intrigue many outsiders is whether SAC and CAC will be required to make real aircraft to attend the bidding processes. That will be quite interesting.
> 
> Cheers



The "pb" guy was saying that SAC was building a physical prototype of its bidding entry.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> There is some conflicting information from two important sources. So, no translation.
> Wait a few more months.





ozranger said:


> Hi Deino,
> 
> From my point of view you can just ignore the guy called "pb****". He is a well known SAC affiliate. So the more credible information comes from "gongke". He is known working in the aircraft engine industry, although no one can confirm that. Some of his past posted information was validated by later development anyway.
> 
> What he tried to say includes the following key points,
> 
> 1. The Chief (or Deputy Chief) of PLAN visited SAC. SAC flew both versions of FC-31 to make up a demo for him, for which I believe you watched that video before.
> 
> 2. The Chief of PLAN praised FC-31 highly, so SAC staff were very excited and almost planned a celebration. However, The Chief of Navy couldn't promise the adoption. So the SAC people had to visit the Navy's Warfare R&D Institute for further information, therefore were cooled down by the peer feedback.
> 
> 3. The land based naval fighter selection seems to be J-20.
> 
> In another post, he mentioned that CAC has announced to attend the competition for carrier based fighter aircraft.
> 
> It sounds quite weird to me that SAC staff could be excited just because they received some praise. For the past 2 generations of fighters for PLAAF, ie. J-10 and J-20, all competing aircraft developers needed to go through official bidding processes. Although they couldn't afford to make real aircraft for the competition, they were required to produce massive amount of test and calculated data to indicate strength and weakness of their designs. I think there will be no exception for this new generation of carrier based fighters and SAC cannot rely on personal praise to win as they will have to go through the bidding.
> 
> BTW I don't really believe personal praise is a thing important in the Chinese culture. Chinese people are quite used to praising others in the public just for making interpersonal relationship smooth, which is not necessarily a sign of liking.
> 
> One thing which could intrigue many outsiders is whether SAC and CAC will be required to make real aircraft to attend the bidding processes. That will be quite interesting.
> 
> Cheers




Thanks both, so any educated guess when - You said "a few more months" - we get some sort of confirmation or even when the first navalised prototype could be unveiled? Would be Zhuhai an appropriate event or will we no confirmation at all and only some day we will spot a new prototype at SAC?

Deino


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## monitor

*PLA Navy Ditches J-15 Carrier-Based H-MRCA, Opts For FC-31 ‘Gryfalcon’ M-MRCA*







An industrial consortium led by China’s Shenyang Aircraft Corp (SAC) has been formally entrusted with the task of developing and series-producing the definitive new-generation aircraft carrier-based medium-weight multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA) for the People’s Liberation Army’s Navy (PLAN). Nicknamed the ‘Gryfalcon’, this MMRCA will be a navalised derivative of the FC-31 stealthy technology demonstrator (TD) that was unveilled at China's Zhuhai Airshow in November 2014.






A land-based M-MRCA variant is being developed for its launch customer--the Pakistan Air Force—which presently does not possess any twin-engined deep-strike interdictor platforms (its entire fleet of combat aircraft presently comprises single-engined aircraft) and therefore remains deeply interested in procuring about 80 such M-MRCAs.






The SAC-led industrial consortium includes its No.112 Factory, the 601 Research Institute (Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute), 603 Aircraft Design Institute (later named the First Aircraft Institute of AVIC-I) and the 606 Institute (Shenyang Aero-engine Research Institute). The FC-31 TD’s (No.31001) maiden flight took place on October 31, 2012. It has been designed to carry an eight-tonne weapons payload (including four precision-guided munitions totalling two tonnes internally, and 6 tonnes being carried on six external hardpoints). It has a combat radius of 648 nautical miles (1,200km) and a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) of 25 tonnes. The fuselage length is 16.8 metres, while the wingspan is 11.5 metres, and the height is 4.8 metres. The maximum attainable speed is Mach 1.8, and thepowerplant comprises two 85kN thrust-rated Klimov RD-93 turbofans imported off-the-shelf from Russia’s Moscow-based Chernyshev Machine-Building Plant, a division of the United Engines Corp (UEC).



First flight of the FC-31’s definitive prototype took place on December 23, 2016, which revealed that the length of the ‘Gryfalcon’ had been increased from 16.8 metres to 17.5 metres, while the MTOW now stands at 28 tonnes. In addition, the wheel-wells were significantly smaller, allowing for a larger internal weapons bay capable of accommodating up to eight tonnes of armaments.






In addition, a twin nose gear and cropped vertical stabilizers were incorporated, as was a chin-mounted electro-optic targetting sensor (EOTS-86) under the nose. The powerplant comprised twin Klimov RD-93MA turbofans that incorporated full authority digital engine controls (FADEC) and a gearbox locdated at the bottom front-end of the engine casing. The RD-93MA has a service-life of 4,000 hours, and a total thrust rating at 94kN.



The ‘Gryfalcon’ will feature a glass cockpit containing panoramic active-matrix liquid crystal displays, hands-on-throttle-and-stick controls, and a helmet-mounted display system. The principal on-board beyond-the-horizon sensor will be the KLJ-7A multi-mode radar with an active electronically-steered antenna array that is now undergoing developmental flight-tests. The airframe will also accommodate an internally-mounted self-defence suite comprising a self-protection wideband jammer, radar warning receivers and missile-approach warning sensors in a distributed aperture configuration.



Primary armament for air combat will include two types of new-generations beyond-visual range air-to-air missiles—a medium-range variant and a long-range variant now undergoing development, plus PL-10E short-range air-to-air missiles. For maritime strike, a smaller and lighter variant of the YJ-12 warship-/land-launched supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (whose export designation is CM-302 and has a 290km-range) is now being developed, which will have a range of 180km.



The PLAN’s decision to switch to the ‘Gryfalcon’ follows its insurmountable difficulties with operationalising the carrier-based J-15H ‘Flying Shark’ heavy-MRCA, along with the difficulties that continue to be experienced by the state-owned Aviation Industries of China (AVIC) in developing new-generation durable turbofans and their thrust-vectoring nozzles. Therefore, to play safe, the PLAN decided in favour of procuring RD-93MA turbofans that are derived from the RD-33MK ‘Morskaya Osa’ (Sea Wasp) turbofan now powering the MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB M-MRCAs of both the navies of Russia and India.



The J-15, with a MTOW of 33 tonnes, is the heaviest active carrier-based MRCA in the world, while its empty weight is 17.5 tonnes. Until 2016, China was confident about its homegrown electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) technology capable of launching the J-15 from ski ramp-equipped aircraft carriers like the PLAN’s Liaoning CV-16, since it was able to produce its own insulated-gate bipolar transistor chips, a key component of the high-efficiency electrical energy conversion systems used in variable-speed drives, railway trains, electric and hybrid electric vehicles, power grids and renewable energy plants. The technology was developed by China’s first semiconductor manufacturer, Hunan-based Zhuzhou CSR Times Electric, and British subsidiary Dynex Semiconductor after the former acquired 75 per cent of Dynex’s shares in the aftermath of the 2008 global financial crisis.







Prasun K. Sengupta at 12:26 AM
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*24 comments:*

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## Akasa

There is no evidence that the FC-31 has been selected for the PLA Navy tender.

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## BHarwana

Akasa said:


> There is no evidence that the FC-31 has been selected for the PLA Navy tender.



FC-31 is not selected they are developing a New Plane based on FC-31. This means China is developing a 3rd stealth fighter jet.

*China To Develop New Carrier-Based Fighters To Replace J-15 Aircraft*

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/22845#.Wz2_0dVKjIU

One thing to keep in mind this news has been circulated by SCMP which is anti-China so the whole story about J-15 causing accidents is wrong. The actual story is China is getting 5th gen for Navy.

New Chinese 5th gen stealth fighter Jet is coming soon. World should get ready for it.

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## pzfz

False. That guy is a moron. Actually all indian "experts" are. The closest one to being sane and rational is Pravin Sawhney. Even he has his delusions.

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## BHarwana

The New Chinese stealth fighter will sever on the new Chinese carrier group which is three catapults design.

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## ALi Rizwan

Akasa said:


> There is no evidence that the FC-31 has been selected for the PLA Navy tender.


No matter what china select but it will be 5th Gen. Any 4th Gen will be stopgap


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## 26-K

FC-31 hasn't been chosen. It still up in the air. The J-15 isn't going anywhere. Just disregard SCMP for their military reports.

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## Ali_Baba

And PAF has not selected FC-31. By every indication, PAF has a wait and see approach on the FC-31.


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## python-000

Ali_Baba said:


> And PAF has not selected FC-31. By every indication, PAF has a wait and see approach on the FC-31.


I want to know why PAF not interested to get them with duel engines it will be very help full for deep strikes in enemy sight with stealthy...


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## Deino

Oh come on guys, can we leave of the PAF and their own issues in deciding or not deciding on this type especially since the Chinese side alone is complicated enough and for the Pakistani side there are already separate threads in the PAF-section.

IMO Pakistan's decision on or against this type is completely irrelevant to the PLAAF's or even more Naval Aviation's outcome.

Deino

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## LKJ86



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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 490763



Any news regarding the FC-31 bid for the PLAN's next-generation carrier fighter competition?


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## Figaro

26-K said:


> FC-31 hasn't been chosen. It still up in the air. The J-15 isn't going anywhere. Just disregard SCMP for their military reports.


SCMP has a well-publicized vendetta against the J-15 for some reason ...


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## AmirPatriot

I've heard that J-31 is not backed by the government, and is not intended for use by the PLAAF. Is this true? If so, wouldn't this jeopardise it's export potential wrt prices, export controls etc.? I don't really know how defence companies work in China (wikipedia says J-31 is made by the state-owned Shenyang Aircraft Corporation - while J-20 is made by Chengdu).


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## Deino

AmirPatriot said:


> I've heard that J-31 is not backed by the government, and is not intended for use by the PLAAF. Is this true? If so, wouldn't this jeopardise it's export potential wrt prices, export controls etc.? I don't really know how defence companies work in China (wikipedia says J-31 is made by the state-owned Shenyang Aircraft Corporation - while J-20 is made by Chengdu).



... which is also state-owned.


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## Cybernetics

AmirPatriot said:


> I've heard that J-31 is not backed by the government, and is not intended for use by the PLAAF. Is this true? If so, wouldn't this jeopardise it's export potential wrt prices, export controls etc.? I don't really know how defence companies work in China (wikipedia says J-31 is made by the state-owned Shenyang Aircraft Corporation - while J-20 is made by Chengdu).


During a press conference at Zhuhai airshow, SAC revealed that J-31 program was initiated and funded by SAC (corporate project) and not under a military project. SAC took the risk in developing the fighter because they thought there was a market for it domestically and for export.

J-20 on the other hand was a project initiated by the military. There wasn't any sort of public promotion of the J-20 unlike J-31.

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## ozranger

AmirPatriot said:


> I've heard that J-31 is not backed by the government, and is not intended for use by the PLAAF. Is this true? If so, wouldn't this jeopardise it's export potential wrt prices, export controls etc.? I don't really know how defence companies work in China (wikipedia says J-31 is made by the state-owned Shenyang Aircraft Corporation - while J-20 is made by Chengdu).



They are all state owned but they run businesses in capitalism. So they could go bankrupt if they didn't work well and staff could really lose their jobs.


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## Beast

ozranger said:


> They are all state owned but they run businesses in capitalism. So they could go bankrupt if they didn't work well and staff could really lose their jobs.


Shenyang AVIC is a huge state owned company. It will not go bankrupt unless China run out of money.

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## AmirPatriot

Cybernetics said:


> During a press conference at Zhuhai airshow, SAC revealed that J-31 program was initiated and funded by SAC (corporate project) and not under a military project. SAC took the risk in developing the fighter because they thought there was a market for it domestically and for export.



So what I heard is correct. 

Do you think SAC is right and there will be a domestic market for it? I think this would reduce prices and encourage more exports. Seeing as it is a corporate project, they would have to sell the J-31 to any Chinese-friendly countries that want it in order for their risk to pay off.


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## Deino

via the SDF:



SinoSoldier said:


> Not sure if he is speaking from his ***, but *PB19980515* claims that the FC-31 2.0 will attend the 2018 Zhuhai Airshow.
> 
> 
> Q: "Will the 2.0 go to the Zhuhai Airshow? Is it still being promoted for export?"
> PB19980515: "It itself is an export product. It will attend the Zhuhai Airshow."
> 
> Link: https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=2499593&pid=77266309



I hope so !

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> via the SDF:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope so !


I think it is not a good news to FC-31.


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> I think it is not a good news to FC-31.



You mean the fact of its eventual "attending the show" or the sentence in this thread "It itself is an export product. I"??


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> You mean the fact of its eventual "attending the show" or the sentence in this thread "It itself is an export product. I"??


If PLAN is interested in FC-31 V2, I don't think it would be showed at Zhuhai Airshow-2018.

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## serenity

PLAN hasn't bought it yet and may never. Even though SAC is at the moment probably more familiar with PLAN carrier requirements just because they have been working on J-15, doesn't mean their J-31 is designed for PLAN future carriers. Until we know whether SAC is testing J-31 prototypes for carrier take off and landing, it is only for export.

Next gen fighter for carriers are long way away. Wait for Type 003 and further carriers to appear first. The fighter will be designed around the carrier rather than other way around and type 001 and 002 are more suited for familiarisation and operational training since they are nowhere near optimal for J-15. I have yet to see J-15 take off with full missile load. Many claims have also suggested that full fuel is also not possible with STOBAR. PLAN will get there eventually though and once they do, they will pump out EM CATOBAR carriers with pace and numbers. The nuclear engine tech is still being worked on. So all this will take time.

By the time Type 003 and onwards are out, J-15 will have also received various MLUs. We will see electronic attack versions and hopefully a carrier based AWACs too. By then, J-31 may not be worth the time if better technologies are available for a more modern 5th gen or 6th gen design. Will make little sense for China to purchase naval J-31 in 15 years time when they will have hundreds of better and more familiar J-20s, and hopefully better manufacturing techniques for a better airframe than J-31. Unfortunately it seems like SAC's gamble isn't paying off yet and may never pay off because they were half-arsed about the whole J-31 gamble. They are still leaving it as a half-finished, unpolished product at this point.

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## Akasa

serenity said:


> PLAN hasn't bought it yet and may never. Even though SAC is at the moment probably more familiar with PLAN carrier requirements just because they have been working on J-15, doesn't mean their J-31 is designed for PLAN future carriers. Until we know whether SAC is testing J-31 prototypes for carrier take off and landing, it is only for export.
> 
> Next gen fighter for carriers are long way away. Wait for Type 003 and further carriers to appear first. The fighter will be designed around the carrier rather than other way around and type 001 and 002 are more suited for familiarisation and operational training since they are nowhere near optimal for J-15. I have yet to see J-15 take off with full missile load. Many claims have also suggested that full fuel is also not possible with STOBAR. PLAN will get there eventually though and once they do, they will pump out EM CATOBAR carriers with pace and numbers. The nuclear engine tech is still being worked on. So all this will take time.
> 
> By the time Type 003 and onwards are out, J-15 will have also received various MLUs. We will see electronic attack versions and hopefully a carrier based AWACs too. By then, J-31 may not be worth the time if better technologies are available for a more modern 5th gen or 6th gen design. Will make little sense for China to purchase naval J-31 in 15 years time when they will have hundreds of better and more familiar J-20s, and hopefully better manufacturing techniques for a better airframe than J-31. Unfortunately it seems like SAC's gamble isn't paying off yet and may never pay off because they were half-arsed about the whole J-31 gamble. They are still leaving it as a half-finished, unpolished product at this point.



The FC-31's size, landing gear, and overall configuration make it far more suitable for carrier operations than the J-20 is. Seeing that the Type 003 CV is roughly ~7 years away from induction, this gives SAC ample time to develop the existing FC-31 design into a capable carrier-borne jet. This isn't mutually exclusive with the development of an upgraded J-15B and certainly doesn't preclude research into far-future 6th generation fighters.

Additionally the FC-31 isn't "half-arsed"; it simply needs a paying customer to complete its development cycle.

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## cirr

What's going on?

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> What's going on?



A few possibilities:

1. Model for amusement park/museum
2. Prototype #31001 for museum/airshow


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## Maxpane

What are they doing?


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## LKJ86

cirr said:


> What's going on?


Just a model.


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## python-000

cirr said:


> What's going on?


Its look like a Pakistani truck...


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## TOTUU

python-000 said:


> Its look like a Pakistani truck...


you are right , this proved china and paksitan are brothers .


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## khanasifm

The guy from tirshul shoot out lot of pic from various events but most of the time his analysis on China pak are off and biased so nothing new


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## Maxpane

Any news ?


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## Awan68

*9 photos of the J-31, China's copycat version of the F-35 stealth fighter — here's how it stacks up*

DANIEL BROWN
OCT 6, 2018, 11:00 PM




After China’s J-31 stealth fighter made its first full-scale public appearance in 2014, observers noted its striking resemblance to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

And many weren’t surprised: China was thought to have stolen unclassified F-35 design information five years earlier.

But recently, there’s been little reporting and discussion about the J-31.

“Part of that, to my knowledge, is that the [PLA] Air Force still hasn’t bought any of them,” Matthew P. Funaiole, a fellow with the China Power Project at CSIS, told Business Insider.


“It was supposed to be introduced in 2018 [or] 2019 … but there hasn’t been much chatter on it,” Funaiole added.

Here’s how the J-31 stacks up against the F-35, and what China might do with the new fighter.

*The J-31 had already resembled the F-35 — both are multirole strike fighters — when a scaled model of it was unveiled in 2012.*
*Although the J-31’s full specifications are not yet known, the J-31 and F-35 have roughly the same weight, height and wingspan.*


Public DomainA side-by-side comparison of the F-35 (top), and the J-31 (bottom).
_Source: Popular Science_

*But the J-31 has a maximum takeoff weight of 56,000 pounds and a maximum range of 775 miles, making it lighter than the 70,000-pound F-35, and with roughly half the range.*


wc/Wikimedia CommonsThe J-31 takes off during the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in November 2014.
_Source: Popular Science_

*The J-31 has the reported edge in speed, as it can max out at Mach 1.8 while the F-35’s can only reach Mach 1.6.*
_Source: Popular Science_

*The J-31 is a twin-engine aircraft, and the F-35 is a single engine aircraft.*
In fact, the slightly improved J-31 prototype (there are only two known to exist), which first flew in December 2016, was equipped with a cleaner burning WS-13 engine, among other improvements.

Beijing has even claimed that the J-31 will eventually have supercruise-capable WS-19 engines, giving it a leg up on the F-35.

_Source: Popular Science, The Aviationist_

*The J-31 might also one day be able to carry 12 air-to-air missiles, double the F-35’s armament.*
_Source: WarIsBoring_

*But unlike the J-31, the F-35 has a sensor suite giving the pilot greater awareness of the battlefield and is basically a flying data hub that shares target tracking information.*


Tonkatsu298/YouTubeThe J-31 deploys drogue parachutes to rapidly slow upon landing at the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in 2014.
“There is no indication that China’s J-31 has been able to fuse such a large variety of feeds into a singular manageable interface,” Popular Science recently wrote. “That means the F-35’s ability to fight from beyond the horizon won’t be found in its Chinese knock-off.”

*As for how the J-31 will be used? Chinese military analysts have said that it will probably replace the J-15 as Beijing’s primary carrier fighter.*


The AviationistOne of the first known pictures of the J-31 right before or after making its maiden flight in 2012.
_Source: Popular Science_

Many believe the J-15 is too heavy and too unreliable for carrier operations – a big hurdle as China tries to build a formidable aircraft carrier fleet.

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## FuturePAF

Any Specs on the planned WS-19 engine? Presumably it would be a supercruising engine that could fit the JF-17.

Also, The Chinese purportedly lag behind in sensor fusion (according to this article, but they are probably catching up behind the scenes). Any chance Pakistan can seek that capability from our other suppliers. Sweden maybe one source, but Turkey maybe able to help develop something like that for the JF-17 (They are working with Saab on the TFX, Saab is great at Sensor Fusion), and the experience with the Turkish upgraded JF-17s could give hints to the Chinese companies on how to catch up there as well.


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## Awan68

FuturePAF said:


> Any Specs on the planned WS-19 engine? Presumably it would be a supercruising engine that could fit the JF-17.
> 
> Also, The Chinese purportedly lag behind in sensor fusion (according to this article, but they are probably catching up behind the scenes). Any chance Pakistan can seek that capability from our other suppliers. Sweden maybe one source, but Turkey maybe able to help develop something like that for the JF-17 (They are working with Saab on the TFX, Saab is great at Sensor Fusion), and the experience with the Turkish upgraded JF-17s could give hints to the Chinese companies on how to catch up there as well.


No way Turkey can match China's r&d capacity alone and in case of collaboration with europe in tfx, they will never allow turkey to transfer sensitive tech to other countries. Our best best for 5th gen is and always will be China and its better this way, western products have too many strings attached. China must already be working on that full throttle for the J 20, no reason substantial tech for the J20 cannot trickle down to J 31.


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## ozranger

FuturePAF said:


> Any Specs on the planned WS-19 engine? Presumably it would be a supercruising engine that could fit the JF-17.
> 
> Also, The Chinese purportedly lag behind in sensor fusion (according to this article, but they are probably catching up behind the scenes). Any chance Pakistan can seek that capability from our other suppliers. Sweden maybe one source, but Turkey maybe able to help develop something like that for the JF-17 (They are working with Saab on the TFX, Saab is great at Sensor Fusion), and the experience with the Turkish upgraded JF-17s could give hints to the Chinese companies on how to catch up there as well.



The biggest problem of FC-31 is its positioning in the market. Sensor fusion with narrow, directional data links are already off-the-shelf products in China for quite a few years. J-20 has them all. The prerequisite and the starting point of sensor fusion is an AESA radar. There is no need to implement sensor fusion if you don't have an AESA radar.


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## Beast

FuturePAF said:


> Any Specs on the planned WS-19 engine? Presumably it would be a supercruising engine that could fit the JF-17.
> 
> Also, The Chinese purportedly lag behind in sensor fusion (according to this article, but they are probably catching up behind the scenes). Any chance Pakistan can seek that capability from our other suppliers. Sweden maybe one source, but Turkey maybe able to help develop something like that for the JF-17 (They are working with Saab on the TFX, Saab is great at Sensor Fusion), and the experience with the Turkish upgraded JF-17s could give hints to the Chinese companies on how to catch up there as well.


Lol..catch with who? Europe don't even know how to make a true 5th gen stealth fighter jets. RCS reduction plus adding decent size internal weapon bay proves too much of a difficulties for them. It's more of Chinese teaching them how to make advance thing. Some of the most advance computer, satetille are made in China. I don't know why you think China still need catch up from Europe? Even our Y-20 can easily lift a decent size MBT (67tons) while Europe A400 still the most can lift 39tons payload. Asking Chinese to seek Europe assistance is more of a downgrade than upgrade.

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## Deino

*Guys... leave out any issues on tanks, helicopters and most of all political BS*.


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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4294758429456370

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## waja2000

FuturePAF said:


> Any Specs on the planned WS-19 engine? Presumably it would be a supercruising engine that could fit the JF-17.



reported on forum WS-19 about 95kN afterburn, future enhance version possible reach 100 KN+, not sure what status now, possible have demo unit in Zhuhai Airshow

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 504850
> View attachment 504851
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4294758429456370



That's just a copy of the AGM-158


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## ozranger

Deino said:


> That's just a copy of the AGM-158



As I know this company has no capability in and has not been qualified by the Chinese government for developing missiles. However they develop and manufacture a couple of different types of stealth material. Their product was endorsed in public by Yang Wei, who is the design lead of J-20 as you probably know.

In contrast Wuhan Guide Infrared Co Ltd, which is an infrared imaging sensor developer, bought out a state owned missile factory and transformed it into a missile R&D institute. Hence they got qualified and reportedly started making missiles now.

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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> That's just a copy of the AGM-158



JASSM with "Chinese Characteristics"; good platform for kinetic strikes or Jammers just like the USN (The picture in the back suggests this may replace the J-15 as the nest generation carrier fighter)


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## ozranger

FuturePAF said:


> JASSM with "Chinese Characteristics"; good platform for kinetic strikes or Jammers just like the USN (The picture in the back suggests this may replace the J-15 as the nest generation carrier fighter)



No it is just a FC-31. The company is advertising its stealth material only.


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## Oldman1

Deino said:


> That's just a copy of the AGM-158



You shouldn't be surprised.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar @messiach if the PAF wants a conventional ALCM (for JF-17), and quickly, it's right here (via China).



If China provided Pakistan the JASSM equivalent. That changes everything in the region.


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## Akasa

Oldman1 said:


> You shouldn't be surprised.
> 
> 
> 
> If China provided Pakistan the JASSM equivalent. That changes everything in the region.



You didn't read the follow-up posts.


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## Oldman1

Akasa said:


> You didn't read the follow-up posts.



Which ones I missed?


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## Brainsucker

Oldman1 said:


> Which ones I missed?



You missed that the company is not a missile maker. They just advertise their stealth technology material. The problem of stealth missile is not that they can't make it or not. But about that they are prepared to waste the expensive Stealth material on missile or not; as you know that missile can only be used once.


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## LKJ86

Maybe, it is a good news to FC-31...

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## Silicon0000

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 505725
> View attachment 505727
> View attachment 505728
> View attachment 505729
> View attachment 505730
> View attachment 505731
> View attachment 505732
> View attachment 505733
> View attachment 505734
> 
> 
> Maybe, it is a good news to FC-31...



You can say that as very few in this forum can read it


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> ...
> Maybe, it is a good news to FC-31...




And - PLEASE - what do they say?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> And - PLEASE - what do they say?


PLAAF has made a request for a light-weight fourth-generation fighter, and SAC is working hard for that.

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF has made a request for a light-weight fourth-generation fighter, and SAC is working hard for that.



Do we know if SAC's plan is to promote FC-31 or develop a new light fighter?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF has made a request for a light-weight fourth-generation fighter, and SAC is working hard for that.


So is Chengdu working on a competing light weight fighter? @messiach


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## LKJ86

FC-31 with WS-13E is said to be 85% cost and 75% performance of J-20 with AL-31F.


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 505794
> 
> View attachment 505795
> 
> 
> FC-31 with WS-13E is said to be 85% cost and 75% performance of J-20 with AL-31F.



Did "gongke" say anything about FC-31 possibly entering PLAAF service?


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## Deino

Akasa said:


> Do we know if SAC's plan is to promote FC-31 or develop a new light fighter?



light weight or medium weight?? I think if indeed a light weight type, then it is unlikely based on the FC-31, which is more a medium weight type.


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> light weight or medium weight?? I think if indeed a light weight type, then it is unlikely based on the FC-31, which is more a medium weight type.



I don't think that the stated requirements are that strict or that translations were entirely on-point.


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## LKJ86

Akasa said:


> Did "gongke" say anything about FC-31 possibly entering PLAAF service?







PLAAF is not satisfied with FC-31 now.


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 505810
> 
> PLAAF is not satisfied with FC-31 now.



Interesting, so the new PLAAF requirement for a lightweight fighter has nothing to do with the FC-31?


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## LKJ86

Akasa said:


> Interesting, so the new PLAAF requirement for a lightweight fighter has nothing to do with the FC-31?


I think FC-31 V1 and V2 are still technology demonstrators, and SAC didn't know the requests of its potential customers yet.


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## messiach

This is not for a public forum. 


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So is Chengdu working on a competing light weight fighter? @messiach


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## Imran Khan

only two prototypes yet man build at least 10


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> I think FC-31 V1 and V2 are still technology demonstrators, and SAC didn't know the requests of its potential customers yet.



Yes, I do realize that, but your previous post implied that the PLAAF wasn't satisfied with the FC-31 design.


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## LKJ86




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## Maxpane

sir can you translate it


LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 505853
> 
> View attachment 505854
> 
> View attachment 505855


 in english?


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## leviathan

Maxpane said:


> sir can you translate it
> 
> in english?


An office news about chief engineer of SHENYANG aero insinuation pays an official visiting to meet GUIYANG aero insinuation. GUIYANG aero insinuation is the place where research and manufacture W13E and WS19. So lots of people guessing its FC31 try to chase them to make the engine...

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## samsara

leviathan said:


> An office news about chief engineer of SHENYANG aero insinuation pays an official visiting to meet GUIYANG aero insinuation. GUIYANG aero insinuation is the place where research and manufacture W13E and WS19. So lots of people guessing its FC31 try to chase them to make the engine...


Thanks for your translation. It is generally comprehended, but there is some annoying error, no offence but I can't help myself to do the correction. 

"An official news about the chief engineer of SHENYANG aero institution pays an official visit to GUIYANG aero institution. The GUIYANG aero institution is the place where the research and manufacturing of W13E and WS19 engines are being done. So lots of people are guessing that FC-31 is trying to approach them to make the engine..."

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## GeraltofRivia

The following is based on a recent blog of a reputable military blogger regarding FC31 project, some of which have been shared above but hope this is a more complete story:

PLAAF is still looking for a “light weight” stealth fighter that is relatively economical, , can be produced and procured in mass, and is complementary to PLAAF top of the line fighter J20. The cost reduction is mostly achieved through economic of scale, sharing the same supply chain for J20, low maintenance design and taking advantage of the technology that has already been developed, as opposed to using low end technology. There should be a material life cycle reduction in cost.

The light fighter should be designed as an air superiority fighter with some land attacking capabilities. It should be designed to have better air combat capabilities than its main counterpart.

SAC is still highly hopeful that FC31 is inducted into PLAAF as their “lightweight” fighter and the author appears to share the optimism. SAC’s proposal does fit many aspects of the light fighter requirements although some tweaks are needed and currently being working through. They are working closely with the main engine developer to seek a material performance uplift. It also has the advantages of being designed with naval aviation elements.

He commented that Chinese military looks to establish a fleet with multiple 5-gen air superiority aircraft to handle different missions. Navy may choose one from the multiple fighter stock or may like to have an entirely different design. Having multiple fighters in the stock is important to develop and maintain a large scale aerospace industry in China.

In his final remark, he criticized the view that regards China’s 5-gen fighter development as a zero sum game between SAC and CAC, where SAC’s design is seen as no value altogether.

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## Deino

Thanks a lot! 

Any hints on the timeline until when a decision will be made?


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 505853
> 
> View attachment 505854
> 
> View attachment 505855


1. FC-31 V1 in Zhuhai Airshow-2014 had two different engines, one from Russia, another one from China.
2. FC-31 is very likely to have a similar internal weapon bay as J-20, which can take 4-6 PL-15, but there will be no side bays.

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## ZeEa5KPul

GeraltofRivia said:


> The light fighter should be designed as an air superiority fighter with some land attacking capabilities. It should be designed to have better air combat capabilities than its main counterpart.


This seems bass-ackwards. The J-20 is already a supreme air-superiority fighter (or rather it will be once it gets its WS-15) - it regularly wipes the floor with opposing forces in air combat exercises. A lightweight fighter will at best be as good, but will sacrifice strike capability to achieve that performance.

China needs a strike aircraft with a weapons bay configuration similar to the F-35 for land attack.

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> 1. FC-31 V1 in Zhuhai Airshow-2014 had two different engines, one from Russia, another one from China.
> 2. FC-31 is very likely to have a similar internal weapon bay as J-20, which can take 4-6 PL-15, but there will be no side bays.



What did "gongke101" say about the PLA Navy adopting the FC-31?


----------



## ozranger

Akasa said:


> What did "gongke101" say about the PLA Navy adopting the FC-31?



He said PLANAF pilots evaluated it with a J-20 simulating a F-22 as opponent. While Institute 601, which is the design agency of FC-31, states that a FC-31 can achieve 70% cost and 90% capability of a J-20, PLANAF estimates that it will only have 75% capability with a 85% cost of a J-20. So the comment is pretty negative in terms of cost effect.

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF has made a request for a light-weight fourth-generation fighter, and SAC is working hard for that.








The "light-weight" fourth-generation fighter also can be called the "low-cost" fourth-generation fighter.

SAC maybe consider to develop a new one with empty weight of 13-14 tons, based on the FC-31.

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 505980
> 
> The "light-weight" fourth-generation fighter also can be called the "low-cost" fourth-generation fighter.
> 
> SAC maybe consider to develop a new one with empty weight of 13-14 tons, based on the FC-31.



The FC-31 already has an empty weight of ~13-15 tons, though.



ozranger said:


> He said PLANAF pilots evaluated it with a J-20 simulating a F-22 as opponent. While Institute 601, which is the design agency of FC-31, states that a FC-31 can achieve 70% cost and 90% capability of a J-20, PLANAF estimates that it will only have 75% capability with a 85% cost of a J-20. So the comment is pretty negative in terms of cost effect.



That's pretty bad, and a contrast to the rumors about the naval J-XX being a derivative of the FC-31.


----------



## Akasa

GeraltofRivia said:


> The following is based on a recent blog of a reputable military blogger regarding FC31 project, some of which have been shared above but hope this is a more complete story:
> 
> PLAAF is still looking for a “light weight” stealth fighter that is relatively economical, , can be produced and procured in mass, and is complementary to PLAAF top of the line fighter J20. The cost reduction is mostly achieved through economic of scale, sharing the same supply chain for J20, low maintenance design and taking advantage of the technology that has already been developed, as opposed to using low end technology. There should be a material life cycle reduction in cost.
> 
> The light fighter should be designed as an air superiority fighter with some land attacking capabilities. It should be designed to have better air combat capabilities than its main counterpart.
> 
> SAC is still highly hopeful that FC31 is inducted into PLAAF as their “lightweight” fighter and the author appears to share the optimism. SAC’s proposal does fit many aspects of the light fighter requirements although some tweaks are needed and currently being working through. They are working closely with the main engine developer to seek a material performance uplift. It also has the advantages of being designed with naval aviation elements.
> 
> He commented that Chinese military looks to establish a fleet with multiple 5-gen air superiority aircraft to handle different missions. Navy may choose one from the multiple fighter stock or may like to have an entirely different design. Having multiple fighters in the stock is important to develop and maintain a large scale aerospace industry in China.
> 
> In his final remark, he criticized the view that regards China’s 5-gen fighter development as a zero sum game between SAC and CAC, where SAC’s design has no value altogether.



Thanks for the translation; who is the blogger that wrote this?



Deino said:


> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Any hints on the timeline until when a decision will be made?



End of 2018 to early 2019, according to a fairly-reputable "big shrimp".

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## GeraltofRivia

Akasa said:


> Thanks for the translation; who is the blogger that wrote this?
> 
> 
> 
> End of 2018 to early 2019, according to a fairly-reputable "big shrimp".


He is Xiyazhou, his latest entry is in post #3730.

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## Akasa

GeraltofRivia said:


> He is Xiyazhou, his latest entry is in post #3730.



Can you provide a link? Thanks.


----------



## GeraltofRivia

ZeEa5KPul said:


> This seems bass-ackwards. The J-20 is already a supreme air-superiority fighter (or rather it will be once it gets its WS-15) - it regularly wipes the floor with opposing forces in air combat exercises. A lightweight fighter will at best be as good, but will sacrifice strike capability to achieve that performance.
> 
> China needs a strike aircraft with a weapons bay configuration similar to the F-35 for land attack.


Yes, having one air superiority fighter doesn’t lessen the need of another one with slightly different role. Having both top of the line, performance oriented fighter and a lighter, more economical (relatively speaking), still capable fighter is a practical and flexible configuration for an Air Force. This can be seen through the recent history in US F15/F16, F14/F18, Soviet Su27/Mig29, China J11/J10. 

Another food for thought is that the future of air warfare is probably going to be more like a football game as opposed to boxing with rollout of networking enabling technology. It is probably more appropriate to evaluate the value of fighter on a team basis as opposed to the traditional metrics like range, speed or payload, which are sill important naturally. 

Just my 2 cents. Have a wonderful day.

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## Deino

GeraltofRivia said:


> ...
> 
> PLAAF is still looking for a “light weight” stealth fighter that is relatively economical, can be produced and procured in mass, and is complementary to PLAAF top of the line fighter J20. ....




Are there any reports concerning CAC's entry into this “light weight stealth fighter" request for proposal?


----------



## GeraltofRivia

Deino said:


> Are there any reports concerning CAC's entry into this “light weight stealth fighter" request for proposal?


As far as I know, there is no official report. I don’t think there will be any report until the plane is inducted in numbers.


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## Akasa

GeraltofRivia said:


> As far as I know, there is no official report. I don’t think there will be any report until the plane is inducted in numbers.



Well, then doesn't that just leave the FC-31 as the sole runner in the competition?


----------



## GeraltofRivia

Akasa said:


> Well, then doesn't that just leave the FC-31 as the sole runner in the competition?


Well theoretically there is nothing to stop CAC to come up with an alternative design. They probably need to consider 3 things 1) how much spare design capacity can be diverted from their main line, namely J20. 2) depending on 1), how likely can their proposal be vastly superior compared to FC31 in meeting the requirements. 3) what is the likelihood of their proposal being selected by the military and therefore having monopoly in the business, which would imply SAC and its army of sub contractors may run into difficulty or even go under when the work of 3-gen fighters starts drying up in the future.
On the other hand, there is in no hurry of making a rushed decision for PLAAF on the lightweight given FC31 and the CAC theoretical proposal will reply on the new engine that is being working on, which means there is still some time for SAC to fine tuning their work. Should SAC decides that they are in the position to come up with an new fighter, should they go after the top of the line fighter opportunity for Navy or go after the lightweight one for PLAAF? I think they will go big and design a new heavy fighter for Navy aviation.


----------



## Akasa

GeraltofRivia said:


> Well theoretically there is nothing to stop CAC to come up with an alternative design. They probably need to consider 3 things 1) how much spare design capacity can be diverted from their main line, namely J20. 2) depending on 1), how likely can their proposal be vastly superior compared to FC31 in meeting the requirements. 3) what is the likelihood of their proposal being selected by the military and therefore having monopoly in the business, which would imply SAC and its army of sub contractors may run into difficulty or even go under when the work of 3-gen fighters starts drying up in the future.
> On the other hand, there is in no hurry of making a rushed decision for PLAAF on the lightweight given FC31 and the CAC theoretical proposal will reply on the new engine that is being working on, which means there is still some time for SAC to fine tuning their work. Should SAC decides that they are in the position to come up with an new fighter, should they go after the top of the line fighter opportunity for Navy or go after the lightweight one for PLAAF? I think they will go big and design a new heavy fighter for Navy aviation.



The new SAC proposal for the heavyweight naval fighter is also supposedly based on the FC-31. CAC can certainly go their own way but if SAC chooses to press ahead with its FC-31 variant then it can produce results far more quickly.


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## GeraltofRivia

Akasa said:


> The new SAC proposal for the heavyweight naval fighter is also supposedly based on the FC-31. CAC can certainly go their own way but if SAC chooses to press ahead with its FC-31 variant then it can produce results far more quickly.


Agree but I guess if SAC wants to compete Navy’s heavy fighter, they needs a lot more than “tweaks” to get FC31 into the heavy class. Navy’s top of the line would need to be at least the same size of J20, preferably a little larger, in order to carry more fuel and ammunition. Given FC31 currently 13-14 ton weight, it needs to be enlarged 40% to reach 19-20 ton class (like F14). Certainly SAc can keep the same layout, but the additional changes are enormous.

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## Akasa

GeraltofRivia said:


> Agree but I guess if SAC wants to compete Navy’s heavy fighter, they needs a lot more than “tweaks” to get FC31 into the heavy class. Navy’s top of the line would need to be at least the same size of J20, preferably a little larger, in order to carry more fuel and ammunition. Given FC31 currently 13-14 ton weight, it needs to be enlarged 40% to reach 19-20 ton class (like F14). Certainly SAc can keep the same layout, but the additional changes are enormous.



Where did you hear that the PLAN wants a "heavy" fighter? The current rumor is that the PLANAF wants a medium-sized heavyweight fighter, roughly comparable in size to the F-35. Another credible blogger, *pb19980515*, has made extensive claims that the fighter will have a 14 ton empty weight and will be based on the FC-31.


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## GeraltofRivia

Akasa said:


> Where did you hear that the PLAN wants a "heavy" fighter? The current rumor is that the PLANAF wants a medium-sized heavyweight fighter, roughly comparable in size to the F-35. Another credible blogger, *pb19980515*, has made extensive claims that the fighter will have a 14 ton empty weight and will be based on the FC-31.


The PLAN has not acknowledged it but it is obvious to see that the requirement of a heavy fighter for PLAN. That being said, it is not an imminent requirement as PLAN is still in the process of building up its AC numbers and J16 is a capable 4-gen heavy fighter at this stage, which is sufficient for a number of years until China’s coast is completely surrounded by F22/F35. A global Navy aviation force needs heavy fighter, one that is heavier and more capable than their Air Force counterpart due to limitations and vulnerability of aircraft carriers, USN has well demonstrated this in F14 vs F15 in 4-gen.

A medium size “low” fighter is clearly required too, which will complement the heavy one and may be inducted first but the top of the line heavy fighter is the medium term goal.

PLAn is not inspired to be a coastal defense force but a global one, meaning its fighter will face others’ top of line land based fighters. A 14 ton medium fighter alone is not going to have any edge in that fight.

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## LKJ86

There is a rumor that FC-31 has got the orders from PLAN (J-35?), and will not be to Zhuhai Airshow-2018.
Wait and see...

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## JSCh

> 草根设计师-CAD
> 今天 15:53 来自 iPhone客户端
> 小二黑，口水鸡，
> 终于有了第一本户口本：海35

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## LKJ86




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## Deino

Can anyone provide a direct translation please?


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## ozranger

Deino said:


> Can anyone provide a direct translation please?


Deino you don't need to take it very seriously. These are just two very nasty men bragging about FC-31's PLAN adoption again, even giving it a made-up designation J-35 (If translated into English it would be F-35 and I think you know what I mean).

This J-35 instantly makes what they said completely falsehood.

They have been doing it every one month or so, for some purpose, making themselves infamously zero creditability. People laugh at these clowns and say they are having periods. In Chinese culture, this is not helping but just ruining SAC.

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## Akasa

ozranger said:


> Deino you don't need to take it very seriously. These are just two very nasty men bragging about FC-31's PLAN adoption again, even giving it a made-up designation J-35 (If translated into English it would be F-35 and I think you know what I mean).
> 
> This J-35 instantly makes what they said completely falsehood.
> 
> They have been doing it every one month or so, for some purpose, making themselves infamously zero creditability. People laugh at these clowns and say they are having periods. In Chinese culture, this is not helping but just ruining SAC.



What makes you say that *pb19980515* has no credibility?


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## LKJ86



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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 506903



This model goes all the way back to 2017, though, and probably doesn't represent what the J-35 will look like.


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## LKJ86



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## Dazzler

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 506905



Translate


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## IblinI

Dazzler said:


> Translate


It is a PLA project now.

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## Ali_Baba

YuChen said:


> It is a PLA project now.



If so, then that is good for the project. It really needs sponsorship by PLA before anyone will take it seriously.


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## 帅的一匹

Ali_Baba said:


> If so, then that is good for the project. It really needs sponsorship by PLA before anyone will take it seriously.


tbey are pushing WS19.


----------



## cirr

Contrails left behind by a pair of FC-31s making test flights over SAC on 31.10.2018

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Contrails left behind by a pair of FC-31s making test flights over SAC on 31.10.2018
> 
> View attachment 511115



Did OP personally witness the FC-31s or was it just inference?


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## LKJ86



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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 511197


Planf?


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## Test7

When is China planning serial production?


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 511197



How credible do you rate this latest round of rumours? I must admit as much as I wish and applaud this decision if done, I'm still rather sceptical since we've heard this rumour already so often.


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> How credible do you rate this latest round of rumours? I must admit as much as I wish and applaud this decision if done, I'm still rather sceptical since we've heard this rumour already so often.


It is the end of this year now.


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> It is the end of this year now.




Pardon, and this means??
... by year's end usually such rumours pop up and calm down again?
... by year's end usually such decisions are being made?
... it was expected that by year's end a decision is being made?

Sorry, but I'm lost-

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> by year's end usually such decisions are being made?


Yep.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 511446




More ...











And now OedoSoldier at Twitter:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/974399023955283968

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## LKJ86



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## Beethoven

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 517379


What a doll.....


----------



## Foxtrot Delta

What is the name of 3rd stealth fighter china was working in ? J-14??

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## Akasa

How credible is this?

*Avic’s J-31 Fighter Is a Winner After All *


> Not long after the J-31 fighter prototype from Avic’s Shenyang Aircraft Corp. appeared in 2012, analysts realized that it was not, after all, a new combat aircraft for the Chinese military. It was just a technology demonstrator from a well-resourced but frustrated state company that had lost two air force fighter competitions in a row.
> 
> Now the J-31 has indeed become a government-funded project, apparently rescued by the shortcomings of the J-15, a naval Flanker derivative also built by Shenyang Aircraft. The navy needs the J-31, and the air force wants it, too.
> 
> State arms organizations are meanwhile working on improvements to earlier fighters, including the two that Avic’s Chengdu Aircraft builds after beating Shenyang Aircraft in competitions: the J-10 and J-20. At Airshow China, held here on Nov. 6–11, Avic demonstrated a thrust-vectoring nozzle on a J-10. Cetc exhibited radars that revealed a new interest in wide-area fire-control sensors for Chinese fighters.
> 
> The *J-31 is being developed for domestic military service under government contract, an official source says*. The type is now intended to *serve with the navy*, says the source, confirming rumors and speculative news reports that have appeared over the past few years. *The air force also wants to put the J-31 into service*, says the source, declining to provide more information.
> 
> Shenyang Aircraft has built two J-31 prototypes, the second of which appeared in late 2016 and is larger than the first.
> 
> The navy evidently needs the J-31 as a shipboard fighter to replace the J-15, which reportedly suffers from unstable flight control—a severe problem for carrier landings. Lt. Gen. Zhang Honghe, deputy head of the air force, told Hong Kong’s _South China Morning Post_ in July that a new fighter would replace the J-15, which is also built by Shenyang Aircraft.
> 
> The J-31, also known as the FC-31, was competing for the navy contract with the J-20 from Chengdu Aircraft, the Sina web portal reported in July. The J-20’s wing loading looks high, making the large fighter an improbable candidate for shipboard operation, which requires low stalling speeds for safe recoveries. Also, state television has shown a model of the J-31 in naval service, though that did not mean it had been selected.
> 
> The air force’s desire to use the J-31 has not been expected but can be explained by the navy’s willingness to pay for full-scale development. *The air force probably rejected an offer of the J-31 from Shenyang Aircraft 8–10 years ago because the service wanted to concentrate resources on acquiring the less advanced but urgently needed J-10*: Most fighter squadrons were equipped with obsolete aircraft. Reflecting that urgency, Avic officials said at the time that the group was trying to build the J-10 as fast as possible and could not consider exports.
> 
> The J-10 cannot have been a candidate as the navy’s J-15 substitute, because the Chengdu Aircraft type has only one engine, a serious safety shortcoming at sea unless extreme reliability can be expected from the powerplant.
> 
> Maximum weight for the initial J-31 design was 25 metric tons; this has risen to 28 metric tons for the design represented by the second prototype, says Sina’s news service. For naval service, weight would rise to 30 metric tons, it says, citing unnamed sources. Radius would rise to 1,500 km (930 mi.) from 1,250 km, the news service adds, but such figures are almost meaningless if the mission and stores are not specified.
> 
> An Avic-owned J-10B testbed, in a Nov. 6 flying display, demonstrated China’s new mastery of extreme aerial maneuverability aided by an experimental thrust-vectoring control system. Over a crowd of thousands attending Airshow China, the J-10B’s axisymmetric vectoring engine nozzle enabled several aerial stunts associated with the most agile combat fighters.
> 
> Thrust vectoring allows a pilot to control an aircraft in an aerodynamic stall condition caused by a low speed and a high angle of attack. By using the vectoring nozzle to rotate the thrust produced by the engine, the pilot can perform tightly controlled maneuvers in a condition that would cause most aircraft to depart controlled flight.
> 
> In the most dramatic stunt, the J-10B’s pilot pulled the nose back almost 90 deg., then used thrust-vectoring control to rapidly reverse direction in a maneuver known as a “J-turn.” The J-10B also performed an air show stunt familiar to Russian fighters. Pulling the nose back beyond 90 deg. at a very low speed, the thrust vectoring system kept the aircraft in firm control. Such maneuvers, while popular at air shows, have limited value in modern combat against another fighter. Post-stall maneuvering can, however, help a fighter pilot in other ways, such as by avoiding detection by flying with a forward speed lower than the threshold velocity required for being spotted on an airborne early warning radar.
> 
> Thrust-vectoring technology has been available to Russian and U.S. pilots since the 1990s but has entered China’s aerial arsenal only recently. The delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighters in 2016 introduced thrust-vectoring-control technology to the Chinese air force fleet. Around the same time, pictures surfaced of Avic’s J-10B testbed equipped with a thrust-vectoring nozzle.
> 
> China does not usually exhibit new technology under development for the military, but an official says that in the case of the thrust-vectoring nozzle the country was far enough behind the U.S. and Russia for the matter not to be regarded as sensitive.
> 
> Since the J-10 has been used as a testbed for the nozzle, the technology can be expected to be applied to production units of that type. Song Zhongping, a military expert quoted by the _Global Times_ newspaper, says that the test program is also laying the groundwork for applying thrust vectoring to a version of the J-20 fighter under development, called the J-20A.
> 
> The CETC radars unveiled at Airshow China allow a fighter to search across an arc of up to 240 deg. without making a turn. The group displayed the new sensors in radomes that matched the shapes of the J-10 and J-20. The presentation suggested CETC intended to offer the fire control radars as upgrades for the air force. They had active, electronically scanned arrays (AESA).
> 
> A radar displayed in a J-20-like radome proposes to introduce a three-antenna array in the nose of a fighter. A front-facing large array sweeps for targets over a 120-deg. field of view, a CETC official says. Two more arrays are mounted on each side of the radome below a J-20-like fuselage chine. Each of the side-facing arrays searches across a 60-deg. field of view. The data from all three arrays is fused together, providing the pilot a 240-deg. radio-frequency map of a battlefield.
> 
> Cetc also showed another radar in a shape resembling the nose radome of a J-10. This sensor lacked the side-facing arrays but installed the front-facing AESA on a mechanical gimbal.



http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/avic-s-j-31-fighter-winner-after-all

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## Beast

Akasa said:


> How credible is this?
> 
> *Avic’s J-31 Fighter Is a Winner After All *
> 
> 
> http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/avic-s-j-31-fighter-winner-after-all



As good as trash. Aviation week is run by those anti-China american trash who speaks nonsense when comes to Chinese aviation. Look at their bogus source. Typical cut and paste and do they self conjuring to fit their agenda.
J-15 unstable flight control is another nonsense. J-15 has repeatly demonstrate high sortie, night sortie and even naval review in the view of president Xi and many high ranking PLAN personnel. Who in the right minded will take such risk? But J-15 despite having long legged and plenty of room for avionic lacks the reduced RCS compare to J-31. It shall not come as surprised if PLAN decide to take this plane.

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## Stealth

What is the status of this aircraft (development stage and official 1st version of the latest prototype) ?


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## Maxpane

Any news regarding fc 31?


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## JohnWick

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 517379


Hope to see it in green!


----------



## JSCh

*China’s medium-sized stealth fighter jet FC-31 may be deployed on future aircraft carriers: sources*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/1/1 15:45:24


A model of an FC-31 fighter jet is displayed at Airshow China 2018 in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province. Photo: Yang Sheng/GT

China's future aircraft carriers will see stealth warplanes on their decks, likely the medium-sized fighter jet FC-31, said Chinese military experts as the People's Liberation Army (PLA) is procuring stealth parts for China's aircraft carrier-based fighter jet manufacturer.

Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute is in need of an integral unit for photoelectric target acquisition that is stealth capable, according to a notice the PLA weapon and equipment procurement website weain.mil.cn released on Thursday.

The notice also said that the unit must be able to operate against naval targets and capable of monitoring humidity.

Judging from the stated requirements and previous rumors, Chinese military observers said that the parts mentioned in the procurement are very likely to be used on China's new aircraft carrier-based stealth fighter jets although the notice did not specify how the parts will be used.

Having already designed China's current aircraft carrier-borne fighter jet J-15, Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute is developing a new carrier-based warplane based on the FC-31, a Chinese military insider, who asked not to be named, told the Global Times.

The FC-31 is a fourth generation medium-sized stealth fighter jet originally intended for export. Chinese military experts said that the PLA procurement notice suggests the FC-31 is no longer export-oriented, and is destined for domestic military service.

The FC-31 made its public debut flight at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, but went relatively quiet after that.

Multiple changes and upgrades are being made to the FC-31 allowing it to be used on an aircraft carrier, the insider said.

China's third aircraft carrier, which was confirmed to be under construction by the Xinhua News Agency in November and is widely expected to be equipped with an electromagnetic catapult, will use the stealth fighter jet, predicted Wang Yunfei, a naval expert and retired PLA Navy officer.

The single-seat, twin-engine fighter jet will greatly expand Chinese aircraft carrier battle groups' capabilities just as China's most advanced stealth fighter jet the J-20 did for the PLA Air Force, the anonymous insider said.

"Only a fourth generation fighter jet can stand up against another fourth generation fighter in an engagement without being at a significant disadvantage," he said.

The US-made fourth generation fighter jet F-35B and F-35C are capable of operating on aircraft carriers, and Japan is planning to upgrade its Izumo-class helicopter destroyers into aircraft carriers, equipping them with imported F-35Bs.

​

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## Maxpane

any official confirmation?


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## Deino

JohnWick said:


> Hope to see it in green!




Nope ... please in air superiority grey.

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## Akasa

JSCh said:


> *China’s medium-sized stealth fighter jet FC-31 may be deployed on future aircraft carriers: sources*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/1/1 15:45:24
> 
> 
> A model of an FC-31 fighter jet is displayed at Airshow China 2018 in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province. Photo: Yang Sheng/GT
> 
> China's future aircraft carriers will see stealth warplanes on their decks, likely the medium-sized fighter jet FC-31, said Chinese military experts as the People's Liberation Army (PLA) is procuring stealth parts for China's aircraft carrier-based fighter jet manufacturer.
> 
> Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute is in need of an integral unit for photoelectric target acquisition that is stealth capable, according to a notice the PLA weapon and equipment procurement website weain.mil.cn released on Thursday.
> 
> The notice also said that the unit must be able to operate against naval targets and capable of monitoring humidity.
> 
> Judging from the stated requirements and previous rumors, Chinese military observers said that the parts mentioned in the procurement are very likely to be used on China's new aircraft carrier-based stealth fighter jets although the notice did not specify how the parts will be used.
> 
> Having already designed China's current aircraft carrier-borne fighter jet J-15, Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute is developing a new carrier-based warplane based on the FC-31, a Chinese military insider, who asked not to be named, told the Global Times.
> 
> The FC-31 is a fourth generation medium-sized stealth fighter jet originally intended for export. Chinese military experts said that the PLA procurement notice suggests the FC-31 is no longer export-oriented, and is destined for domestic military service.
> 
> The FC-31 made its public debut flight at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, but went relatively quiet after that.
> 
> Multiple changes and upgrades are being made to the FC-31 allowing it to be used on an aircraft carrier, the insider said.
> 
> China's third aircraft carrier, which was confirmed to be under construction by the Xinhua News Agency in November and is widely expected to be equipped with an electromagnetic catapult, will use the stealth fighter jet, predicted Wang Yunfei, a naval expert and retired PLA Navy officer.
> 
> The single-seat, twin-engine fighter jet will greatly expand Chinese aircraft carrier battle groups' capabilities just as China's most advanced stealth fighter jet the J-20 did for the PLA Air Force, the anonymous insider said.
> 
> "Only a fourth generation fighter jet can stand up against another fourth generation fighter in an engagement without being at a significant disadvantage," he said.
> 
> The US-made fourth generation fighter jet F-35B and F-35C are capable of operating on aircraft carriers, and Japan is planning to upgrade its Izumo-class helicopter destroyers into aircraft carriers, equipping them with imported F-35Bs.
> 
> ​



Here's a link to all the mentioned military tenders put out by SAC: http://www.weain.mil.cn/cgcms/search/result?Query=沈阳飞机&searchCatalogID=15133&SiteID=122

There are a lot of them. This may be the first *official* hint that the 601 Institute has bagged the naval fighter tender.

@星海军事

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## LKJ86

SAC

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> SAC
> View attachment 536625


Plz explain...!!!


----------



## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> SAC
> View attachment 536625


Plz explain...!!!


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## Maxpane

any thing new?


----------



## Gomig-21

LKJ86 said:


>



That looks amazing.

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## python-000

Gomig-21 said:


> That looks amazing.


Yes indeed but don't know why PAF not interested in it Pakistan must induct at least 1 or 2 squadron in it's inventory...


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## Maxpane

f c 31 should have side weapon bays

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## Brainsucker

Beast said:


> As good as trash. Aviation week is run by those anti-China american trash who speaks nonsense when comes to Chinese aviation. Look at their bogus source. Typical cut and paste and do they self conjuring to fit their agenda.
> J-15 unstable flight control is another nonsense. J-15 has repeatly demonstrate high sortie, night sortie and even naval review in the view of president Xi and many high ranking PLAN personnel. Who in the right minded will take such risk? But J-15 despite having long legged and plenty of room for avionic lacks the reduced RCS compare to J-31. It shall not come as surprised if PLAN decide to take this plane.



Yes, J-15 unstable flight control is a nonsense. But still, J-15 is too big for a Sea launched Aircraft. And with the incoming F-35 to East Asian nations, like Japan and Korea, China is in urgent need to challenge them with the same technological military capability; Stealth Fighter.

The problem is, why it is only now. They should did it from the beginning. Or were they afraid to escalate the tension back then? But it was pointless if it's true. Because whatever China doing, Japan and Korea will procure F-35 at the end.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Some news from Oedosoldier...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1099910388018221056


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## ZeEa5KPul

Deino said:


> Some nes from Oedosoldier...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1099910388018221056


Translation please. How credible is this Oedosoldier?


----------



## lcloo

Deino said:


> Some nes from Oedosoldier...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1099910388018221056


I think this correlates to what Huitong wrote.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> I think this correlates to what Huitong wrote.
> View attachment 541718




Indeed, even if I don't know his sourses, he confirms his previous post from March 2018.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

lcloo said:


> I think this correlates to what Huitong wrote.
> View attachment 541718


@Oscar and @messiach see the part about the 611 Institute.


----------



## wulff

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar and @messiach see the part about the 611 Institute.



It is a reference to 611 starting R&D of a J-20 follow-up, a '6th Gen' fighter.


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## messiach

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar and @messiach see the part about the 611 Institute.


Yes. I know.


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## Stealth

any update in this aircraft or project is abondondd??


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## FuturePAF

Maxpane said:


> f c 31 should have side weapon bays



IF the PAF signs on, it will optimize it for A2A and design will adjusted accordingly, including side bays. If we see side bays in the next prototype, it will be more indication the PAF is interested, as the PLANAF still wants to use the J-15 as their A2A fighter, and may reserve the J-31 as a strike platform.

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## Maxpane

FuturePAF said:


> IF the PAF signs on, it will optimize it for A2A and design will adjusted accordingly, including side bays. If we see side bays in the next prototype, it will be more indication the PAF is interested, as the PLANAF still wants to use the J-15 as their A2A fighter, and may reserve the J-31 as a strike platform.


yes , hope next prototype have side bays


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## LKJ86



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## 592257001

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 550277


Since when did SAC establish a research institute in Yangzhou? I wonder if it's because it wants to know the secret of the fountain of the youth that's famous for being there? 

After all, ~江出扬州泽万民


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## LKJ86

Interesting...


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> Interesting...
> View attachment 550788



Summary:

1. J-35 will have less than a 10% increase in weight upon navalization
2. J-35 will have ~8 tons of fuel
3. Might appear within 2 years
4. PLAAF might be interested in it as well, and its variant might appear sooner than the naval one


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## Maxpane

any news about side bays?


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## princefaisal

Side bays are necessary for PL-10s.


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## Deino

princefaisal said:


> Side bays are necessary for PL-10s.



But most likely impossible due to limited size and internal volume and these constant mantra-like repeating of "I wish" are as unrealistic as these constant wishes by some fan-boys, the JF-17 should get a bigger wing with additional hardpoints, it should get a wider radome for a larger radar, a wider fuselage for a WS-10 or even WS-15 and finally just pluck&play a second engine ... 

Even if wanted, this would be like trying to pull a hair out of my palm

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> Interesting...
> View attachment 550788



Hmm, the post is now deleted.


----------



## samsara

Akasa said:


> Summary:
> 
> 1. J-35 will have less than a 10% increase in weight upon navalization
> 2. J-35 will have ~8 tons of fuel
> 3. Might appear within 2 years
> 4. PLAAF might be interested in it as well, and its variant might appear sooner than the naval one


It's *SinoSoldier* who posted such info at SDF under "J-XY next generation carrier-borne fighter", 2019-04-01:

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## Akasa

samsara said:


> It's *SinoSoldier* who posted such info at SDF under "J-XY next generation carrier-borne fighter", 2019-04-01:
> View attachment 550887



So do you think why the OP's post was deleted?


----------



## samsara

Akasa said:


> So do you think why the OP's post was deleted?


*You should ask "SinoSoldier"*, he's the one who posted such info at the english forum.

Actually I am more interested in why could you repost such info here without crediting any one? In particular the persona "SinoSoldier" also exists here in PDF but much less active over these last few years…

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## Deino

samsara said:


> *You should ask "SinoSoldier"*, he's the one who posted such info at the english forum.
> 
> Actually I am more interested in why could you repost such info here without crediting any one? In particular the persona "SinoSoldier" also exists here in PDF but much less active over these last few years…



But do you really think it was removed only because of SinoSoldier's repost?

Or due to being either a sensible post with secret content or due to being wrong, maybe a late April fool's day joke?


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

samsara said:


> *You should ask "SinoSoldier"*, he's the one who posted such info at the english forum.
> 
> Actually I am more interested in why could you repost such info here without crediting any one? In particular the persona "SinoSoldier" also exists here in PDF but much less active over these last few years…


Hmm... very intriguing.



Deino said:


> But do you really think it was removed only because of SinoSoldier's repost?
> 
> Or due to being either a sensible post with secret content or due to being wrong, maybe a late April fool's day joke?


Is April Fool's even done in China?

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## LKJ86



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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 551346
> View attachment 551347



Very old photo of 1.0 and 2.0 under assembly. Already been reposted numerous times.

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## ziaulislam

FuturePAF said:


> IF the PAF signs on, it will optimize it for A2A and design will adjusted accordingly, including side bays. If we see side bays in the next prototype, it will be more indication the PAF is interested, as the PLANAF still wants to use the J-15 as their A2A fighter, and may reserve the J-31 as a strike platform.


problem is someone has to take up the bill for maturing this plateform, unless china signs in pakistan cant go for it..if china signs..you will see an instant order from pakistan

yes side bays are a must..but we need something that can strike atleast 600km inside india

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## wulff

ziaulislam said:


> problem is someone has to take up the bill for maturing this plateform, unless china signs in pakistan cant go for it..if china signs..you will see an instant order from pakistan
> 
> yes side bays are a must..but we need something that can strike atleast 600km inside india



No need to sign up for an orphan design like the FC-31. The next generation chinese naval stealth fighter is going to fly by 2020. It will be half a generation ahead of the FC-31 and will see constant design updates. Will also be mass produced and procured by China, which will make it more capable and likely cheaper than the FC-31.

The new version of J-16 is also in development. It will likely have the TVC engines that have been tested on a J-10.

Why then should Pakistan act in haste and procure old designs like the J-10CE and FC-31? Right now, putting the JF-17 Block 3 into serial production, introducing new A2A and A2G weaponry, and building up squadrons of this type is enough to keep the PAF's budget tied up.

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## Ali_Baba

The FC-31 feels like a dead end for sure. Lack of Chinese interest has killed it. I think, SAC thought they could emulate the FC-1 programme with the FC-31 programme for Pakistan. They did not understand that the objectives of FC-1 are quite different from those for Project Azm.

I hear there may be PLAN interest in it, if so, then there is a possibility that the programme can be revived. It really needs a backer with significant resources, to bring it to front line operational use for sure.


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## Deino

Ali_Baba said:


> The FC-31 feels like a dead end for sure. Lack of Chinese interest has killed it. I think, SAC thought they could emulate the FC-1 programme with the FC-31 programme for Pakistan. They did not understand that the objectives of FC-1 are quite different from those for Project Azm.
> 
> I hear there may be PLAN interest in it, if so, then there is a possibility that the programme can be revived. It really needs a backer with significant resources, to bring it to front line operational use for sure.




But why are you so sure it is dead and there is no PLA interest? Quite to the contrary, most recent reports speak of a renewed interest ...


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## LKJ86

Ali_Baba said:


> The FC-31 feels like a dead end for sure. Lack of Chinese interest has killed it. I think, SAC thought they could emulate the FC-1 programme with the FC-31 programme for Pakistan, and they didnot understand the objectives of FC-1 is different from those for Project Azm.


FC-31 V1 and V2 are all technology demonstrators. What SAC wants are to get the orders from PLAAF and PLAN, and to be free from Franker family fighters.

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## Stealth

LKJ86 said:


> FC-31 V1 and V2 are all technology demonstrators. What SAC wants are to get the orders from PLAAF and PLAN, and to be free from Franker family fighters.



What is the status of this aircraft? when the world will see the official demonstration of V2?


----------



## The Ronin

*China to develop new engine for carrier-based stealth fighter jets*
April 2019 News Navy Naval Maritime Defense Industry
POSTED ON FRIDAY, 19 APRIL 2019 10:44

Chinese designers and engineers teamed up to study, develop and test a new turbofan engine for the Chinese carrier-based stealth fighter jets, the Shenyang FC-31 fighters. 
"The engine could be related to China's medium-sized twin-engine stealth aircraft FC-31, which could become China's next-generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet," Wei Dongxu, a military expert told Global Times.

The team from Gas Turbine Research Institute working on the project, under the state-owned Aero Engine Corporation of China, will receive a provincial award during China's Youth Day on May 4, according to a statement released by the government of Chengdu, capital of Southwest China's Sichuan Province, on its WeChat account on April 15.

It took the development team one year to design the engine. The prototype of the engine underwent testing in six months. The engine is one of several major aero engine projects of the country, the statement said.

"Advanced turbofan engines are difficult to develop, especially the manufacturing of fan blades, which must be built to resist very high temperatures and pressure," Wei added. Although, still according to Wei, the new engine must still undergo a considerable amount of testing under different situations, before it is confirmed reliable and therefore can enter mass production.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...blTYsCCDEZiPlbvIwcKxuB9D7ywVcs7P3yFTXhBSZbvRc

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## mdmm

Thank you for nice research.
Is there any news or hope that Pakistan is finalized with China to get any J 10, J20, J31 or similar jet fighters ??


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## khanasifm

Full bubble canopy plus look like now side intake also has weapon bay ?? Black in color doors ?? In addition to fuselage ?

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## Maxpane

side weapon bays


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## Deino

khanasifm said:


> Full bubble canopy plus look like now side intake also has weapon bay ?? Black in color doors ?? In addition to fuselage ?




Pardon to ask, but is this just a personal guess in the same way to your "mare hadpoints" claim for the JF-17, a wish or is it based on anything substantial?


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## kungfugymnast

Ali_Baba said:


> The FC-31 feels like a dead end for sure. Lack of Chinese interest has killed it. I think, SAC thought they could emulate the FC-1 programme with the FC-31 programme for Pakistan. They did not understand that the objectives of FC-1 are quite different from those for Project Azm.
> 
> I hear there may be PLAN interest in it, if so, then there is a possibility that the programme can be revived. It really needs a backer with significant resources, to bring it to front line operational use for sure.



J31 development is waiting for perfection of EMALS on new aircraft carrier. Once EMALS become available, navalized J31 will be designed and tested on carrier launch fitted with new WS19 engines. FC31 air force variant J31 will be developed with results taken from navalized J31.

J31 will take shorter period to develop compared to J20 because it required existing engines RD33 engines. Development of WS19 that is more reliable than RD33 still in progress. If they don't mind making the J31 more powerful but uses more fuel, they could enlarge the engine bay to fit WS10B with TVC and add sidebays for PL10.

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## Wow

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 551346
> View attachment 551347


that is looking really impressive


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## yantong1980

LKJ86 said:


> FC-31 V1 and V2 are all technology demonstrators. What SAC wants are to get the orders from PLAAF and PLAN, and to be free from Franker family fighters.



So, SAC created FC-31V1 and V2 for studying stealth fighter know-how, costly and directly but seems SAC also want show how they get serious catching-up with CAC with 'brainchild' J-20, not stuck with Flanker series project.



The Ronin said:


> *China to develop new engine for carrier-based stealth fighter jets*
> April 2019 News Navy Naval Maritime Defense Industry
> POSTED ON FRIDAY, 19 APRIL 2019 10:44
> 
> Chinese designers and engineers teamed up to study, develop and test a new turbofan engine for the Chinese carrier-based stealth fighter jets, the Shenyang FC-31 fighters.
> "The engine could be related to China's medium-sized twin-engine stealth aircraft FC-31, which could become China's next-generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet," Wei Dongxu, a military expert told Global Times.
> 
> The team from Gas Turbine Research Institute working on the project, under the state-owned Aero Engine Corporation of China, will receive a provincial award during China's Youth Day on May 4, according to a statement released by the government of Chengdu, capital of Southwest China's Sichuan Province, on its WeChat account on April 15.
> 
> It took the development team one year to design the engine. The prototype of the engine underwent testing in six months. The engine is one of several major aero engine projects of the country, the statement said.
> 
> "Advanced turbofan engines are difficult to develop, especially the manufacturing of fan blades, which must be built to resist very high temperatures and pressure," Wei added. Although, still according to Wei, the new engine must still undergo a considerable amount of testing under different situations, before it is confirmed reliable and therefore can enter mass production.
> 
> https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...blTYsCCDEZiPlbvIwcKxuB9D7ywVcs7P3yFTXhBSZbvRc



So PLAN officially adopt SAC FC-31 as next-gen carrier based fighter? But these:"The engine COULD BE related to China's medium-sized twin-engine stealth aircraft FC-31" Nothing sure?


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## Ali_Baba

Wow said:


> that is looking really impressive



Procuring the FC-31 makes more sense than the J10C given its stealth qualities and commonality of engine with the JF17. Guess if/when PLAAF/PLAN buys it, then PAF can take a look at it. Not worth it right now as its future is un-certain. 

Is the ground clearance on the FC-31 better(higher) or equal to the JF10C? It makes the addition of certain weapons easier and one minor issue in JF17s design(ergo Ra'ad integration on the centre point is an issue..).


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## LKJ86

Ali_Baba said:


> Procuring the FC-31 makes more sense than the J10C given its stealth qualities and commonality of engine with the JF17. Guess if/when PLAAF/PLAN buys it, then PAF can take a look at it. Not worth it right now as its future is un-certain.
> 
> Is the ground clearance on the FC-31 better(higher) or equal to the JF10C? It makes the addition of certain weapons easier and one minor issue in JF17s design(ergo Ra'ad integration on the centre point is an issue..).


It is a seller's market in 5th-generation fighter now.


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## Ali_Baba

FuturePAF said:


> There is little Russia can offer that China can not beat. That too at a better price, better ToT/maintenance, and without the threat of the information on the system being given to India.
> 
> Russian helicopters are well priced and of decent quality and capability. Russian cold weather gear is probably better. Russian made guns are also a reliable purchase at a modest price. although sights and add-ons can be purchased from anywhere.
> 
> The only real system Pakistan should consider is a small batch of the latest Pantsir air defense system to counter PGMs near sensitive sites. especially after their experience in Syria, Russia may have a few tricks up their sleeves.





LKJ86 said:


> It is a seller's market in 5th-generation fighter now.



Not sure about it being a sellers market for 5th Gen. Most 5th Gen programmes are struggling with financing and the FC-31 was virtually dead until the PLAN picked up the programme...

As a buyer, you shouldnt buy anything that doesn't add enough value to your needs relative to the cost of the platform. That is why the J10C is a non-starter for PAF and AVIC has really really pitched the platform quite aggressively to the PAF/Pakistan. The gap between it, and the JF17 Block III isn't enough to warrant its purchase given the cost of "introducing a new platform and the cost of a new eco-system to support that system". That is what it comes down to, a cold hard calculation of *cost versus capability*. An issue that is more pronounced for a customer like PAF tht is always cash starved..

Its a ratio that may make sense for the FC-31, but not J10C. You have to see that? J10C only makes sense for customers who are looking for a 4+ gen platform and they dont have anything existing in their inventory.

Bangladesh is the best bet for the J10CE. Even Myanmar which has purchased the JF17, is buying the Su-30MKM from Russia as its high end, as the J10CE makes no sense for them. They operate both the K8, FC1 but skipped the J10C as it doesnt representative a capability gap to the FC1 that the Su-30MKM represents.

PAFs best play at the moment, is to expand the JF17 fleet aggressively, and try and pick up a few 2nd hand F16s if the opportunity arises and keep the Mirage force relevant until the JF17 can take over.

It has be to about Project Azm for the next phase for the PAF.

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## FuturePAF

Ali_Baba said:


> Not sure about it being a sellers market for 5th Gen. Most 5th Gen programmes are struggling with financing and the FC-31 was virtually dead until the PLAN picked up the programme...
> 
> As a buyer, you shouldnt buy anything that doesn't add enough value to your needs relative to the cost of the platform. That is why the J10C is a non-starter for PAF and AVIC has really really pitched the platform quite aggressively to the PAF/Pakistan. The gap between it, and the JF17 Block III isn't enough to warrant its purchase given the cost of "introducing a new platform and the cost of a new eco-system to support that system". That is what it comes down to, a cold hard calculation of *cost versus capability*. An issue that is more pronounced for a customer like PAF tht is always cash starved..
> 
> Its a ratio that may make sense for the FC-31, but not J10C. You have to see that? J10C only makes sense for customers who are looking for a 4+ gen platform and they dont have anything existing in their inventory.
> 
> Bangladesh is the best bet for the J10CE. Even Myanmar which has purchased the JF17, is buying the Su-30MKM from Russia as its high end, as the J10CE makes no sense for them. They operate both the K8, FC1 but skipped the J10C as it doesnt representative a capability gap to the FC1 that the Su-30MKM represents.
> 
> PAFs best play at the moment, is to expand the JF17 fleet aggressively, and try and pick up a few 2nd hand F16s if the opportunity arises and keep the Mirage force relevant until the JF17 can take over.
> 
> It has be to about Project Azm for the next phase for the PAF.



Mostly true, a Single J-10CE can carry more than double the payload 8000 kg versus 3600kg over the JF-17, the range is longer, the capacity to carry 50% larger sensors could mean the J-10CE would be great at long range deep strike over land and at sea in ways the JF-17 is not able to do.

It all depends on doctrine and the missions the air force is tasked to be able to do. For a low level strike over the sea at an Indian carrier, a flight of 12 J-10CE; 6 as fighter escort and 6 as missile launch platforms would carry 12 CM-302 (YJ-12) anti-ship missiles amongst the group (each weighs 2500 kg) and have enough space left over for added drop tanks to extend their range. The 6 escort fighters could carry enough PL-15 and PL-10 and jamming pods (as well as drop tanks) to fly all the way with them and back, and protect them against the up to 26 Mig-29K on the INS Vikramaditya and other naval assets of the Indian Navy.

The long range of the J-10 would allow them to take off from Karachi or Ormara and target any Indian blockade being formed against Pakistan nearly anywhere in the Northern Arabian sea.

The JF-17 doesn't have the range, payload capacity, and its layout is not the best (in terms of stability; J-10 being a Delta design with fly-by-wire) for low level naval aviation.

12 High speed mach 4 anti-ship missiles coming in at low level, guided by their launch platforms (due to large AESA radars on the J-10s; that could also be jamming enemy radars and communications as well) until the final few kilometers would make the Indian navy stay far from Pakistan's coast. They maybe able to knock out a few missiles, but if the remaining get through, the Carrier would be sunk and it would destroy their strategy and morale

That's why giving the Pakistan navy two squadrons of J-10CE (36 jets) to cover their needs, and allow the PAF to handle the International border and Line of control defense operations.


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## Deino

FuturePAF said:


> Mostly true, a Single J-10CE can carry more than double the payload 8000 kg versus 3600kg over the JF-17, the range is longer, the capacity to carry 50% larger sensors could mean the J-10CE would be great at long range deep strike over land and at sea in ways the JF-17 is not able to do.
> 
> It all depends on doctrine and the missions the air force is tasked to be able to do. For a low level strike over the sea at an Indian carrier, a flight of 12 J-10CE; 6 as fighter escort and 6 as missile launch platforms would carry 12 CM-302 (YJ-12) anti-ship missiles amongst the group (each weighs 2500 kg) and have enough space left over for added drop tanks to extend their range. The 6 escort fighters could carry enough PL-15 and PL-10 and jamming pods (as well as drop tanks) to fly all the way with them and back, and protect them against the up to 26 Mig-29K on the INS Vikramaditya and other naval assets of the Indian Navy.
> 
> The long range of the J-10 would allow them to take off from Karachi or Ormara and target any Indian blockade being formed against Pakistan nearly anywhere in the Northern Arabian sea.
> 
> The JF-17 doesn't have the range, payload capacity, and its layout is not the best (in terms of stability; J-10 being a Delta design with fly-by-wire) for low level naval aviation.
> 
> 12 High speed mach 4 anti-ship missiles coming in at low level, guided by their launch platforms (due to large AESA radars on the J-10s; that could also be jamming enemy radars and communications as well) until the final few kilometers would make the Indian navy stay far from Pakistan's coast. They maybe able to knock out a few missiles, but if the remaining get through, the Carrier would be sunk and it would destroy their strategy and morale
> 
> That's why giving the Pakistan navy two squadrons of J-10CE (36 jets) to cover their needs, and allow the PAF to handle the International border and Line of control defense operations.





Can we please leave out these PAF wishfull-thinking ideas in this thread? There is already one related to the FC-31 in possibly PAF service, so no need to derail this one too:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...rcraft-for-paf-updates-debate.343466/page-158

Deino


PS: even more, please do your homework, the J-10C can never ever carry a YJ-12

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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> Can we please leave out these PAF wishfull-thinking ideas in this thread? There is already one related to the FC-31 in possibly PAF service, so no need to derail this one too:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...rcraft-for-paf-updates-debate.343466/page-158
> 
> Deino
> 
> 
> PS: even more, please do your homework, the J-10C can never ever carry a YJ-12



Ok, got it, will stick to evidence based discussions.
I will stick to the MastanKhan option: JH-7A equipped YJ12



Would be happy if the PAF goes for the J-31 once the engine issues are worked out. (we have seen the loss of a Japanese F-35, possibly due to it single engine failing) 
Merely wanted to state the case that there is a place for longer range fighters; especially in the naval domain

Will stick to the J-31 in this thread


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## Ultima Thule

FuturePAF said:


> Ok, got it, will stick to evidence based discussions.
> I will stick to the MastanKhan option: JH-7A equipped YJ12
> View attachment 556375
> 
> Would be happy if the PAF goes for the J-31 once the engine issues are worked out. (we have seen the loss of a Japanese F-35, possibly due to it single engine failing)
> Merely wanted to state the case that there is a place for longer range fighters; especially in the naval domain
> 
> Will stick to the J-31 in this thread


JH-7A and also J-11 series of jets can carried YJ-12


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## Deino

FuturePAF said:


> Ok, got it, will stick to evidence based discussions.
> I will stick to the MastanKhan option: JH-7A equipped YJ12
> View attachment 556375
> 
> Would be happy if the PAF goes for the J-31 once the engine issues are worked out. (we have seen the loss of a Japanese F-35, possibly due to it single engine failing)
> Merely wanted to state the case that there is a place for longer range fighters; especially in the naval domain
> 
> Will stick to the J-31 in this thread



Pardon again to disagree, this image is a plain stupid photoshop fake and well known since years, even more the missile is much too small shown in this image and also at least IMO I won't rate MastanKhan too reliable. Anyone who thinks by easy plug and play scale downing Pakistan could transform the twin-engine FC-31 into a single engine type and that alone with one WS-19 tells me too much. But maybe that's just my opinion.



pakistanipower said:


> JH-7A and also J-11 series of jets can carried YJ-12



Nope, they cannot ... at least there has been no proof posted and by my calculation, the YJ-12 is simply much too large and heavy.

But back to topic.


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## Ultima Thule

Deino said:


> Nope, they cannot ... at least there has been no proof posted and by my calculation, the YJ-12 is simply much too large and heavy.
> 
> But back to topic.


ok sir, but one last question, if J-11 and JH-7A can't carry YJ-12 H-6 @Deino


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## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> Procuring the FC-31 makes more sense than the J10C given its stealth qualities and commonality of engine with the JF17. Guess if/when PLAAF/PLAN buys it, then PAF can take a look at it. Not worth it right now as its future is un-certain.
> 
> Is the ground clearance on the FC-31 better(higher) or equal to the JF10C? It makes the addition of certain weapons easier and one minor issue in JF17s design(ergo Ra'ad integration on the centre point is an issue..).


Raad is a strategic weapon /nuclear that will be retired with mirages and replaced by a new weapon for the new plateform that takes over this rule in 2030.. Be it jf17 or j10 or fc31..


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## Deino

pakistanipower said:


> ok sir, but one last question, if J-11 and JH-7A can't carry YJ-12 H-6 @Deino



Yes, ... so far only confirmed for the H-6 series.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Oh please no! ... just show us the real deal, at best the no. 3 airframe!


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## Deino

I stumbled across this post at the SDF including a translation from "mys_721tx":







------------------------------------
Q: Is 2.0 cancelled?
A: No, it's still there. I saw it.

Q: Is 2.0 still [primer] green?
A: No, it has been painted.

Q: Does 2.0 have the same paint job as 31001?
A: No, totally different.

Q: What does 2.0 looks like? Are there any photo?
A: There are photos, just not in my procession. Don't ask me who has them, I will keep it as a secret. I will also keep the painting itself as a secret for the time being. I want to play a game to see how shocked everyone is when we see the photos of the first flight.

Q: Does 2.0 have the August 1st insignia?
A: Let me phrase it this way, it is not nice to commandeer private projects.

Q: Does 2.0 get new engines?
A: For some reason it's too dark and I wasn't able to see.

Q: Has the painted 2.0 not taken the first flight?
A: No, we should wait and see. There is no update but it should be on ground testing.

[J-]16's production capability is surprisingly [good].

There are good news by the end of the month.

There is a 2019 model aircraft near its first flight.
------------------------------------

and another one from "Lama":

------------------------------------
I try to make a translation.
1.Does the 2.0 still exist? 
yes,I have already seen it.
2.Is the 2.0 still in green color?
No, the 2.0 has been painted.
3.Dose the 2.0's coat looks like 31001?
Totally different.
4.What is it like? any photos?
I don't have photos.Don't ask me who have photos. It should be kept secret. I want to play a game that all of you say wow after watching it. Pls keep an eye on other bloggers and wait for them to post the first photo of the 2.0.
5.Does it have the logo of PLA？
emmm…Let me explain it in this way: picking peaches is not a proper behavior.(picking peaches mostly means sit idle and enjoy the fruits)
6.Does the 2.0 have new engines?
Because of some reasons I can't see what the engines are like.It's too dark.
7.Doesn't the 2.0 have its first flight?
No. Let's wait. It's being test these days.

The capacity of J16 is amazing.
Something good will happen at the end of this month. But it is too sensitive. Maybe I'll talk about it next year.
New type aircraft of 2019 will have its first flight.(he say 19款,it can mean 19 types or type of 2019.I belive he means the latter.
------------------------------------


IMO interesting, but again:

- who is the original poster? 
- how reliable is he (or she)?
- it's overall a bit confusing: we all know 02 exists since some time and even that it flew already .. so why the 7. question?


Here's the original tweet:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135480984516698112

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 563956




Well ... funny, but I'm sure, that is not its main intention??


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## jaybird

Deino said:


> I stumbled across this post at the SDF including a translation from "mys_721tx":
> 
> View attachment 563445
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> Q: Is 2.0 cancelled?
> A: No, it's still there. I saw it.
> 
> Q: Is 2.0 still [primer] green?
> A: No, it has been painted.
> 
> Q: Does 2.0 have the same paint job as 31001?
> A: No, totally different.
> 
> Q: What does 2.0 looks like? Are there any photo?
> A: There are photos, just not in my procession. Don't ask me who has them, I will keep it as a secret. I will also keep the painting itself as a secret for the time being. I want to play a game to see how shocked everyone is when we see the photos of the first flight.
> 
> Q: Does 2.0 have the August 1st insignia?
> A: Let me phrase it this way, it is not nice to commandeer private projects.
> 
> Q: Does 2.0 get new engines?
> A: For some reason it's too dark and I wasn't able to see.
> 
> Q: Has the painted 2.0 not taken the first flight?
> A: No, we should wait and see. There is no update but it should be on ground testing.
> 
> [J-]16's production capability is surprisingly [good].
> 
> There are good news by the end of the month.
> 
> There is a 2019 model aircraft near its first flight.
> ------------------------------------
> 
> and another one from "Lama":
> 
> ------------------------------------
> I try to make a translation.
> 1.Does the 2.0 still exist?
> yes,I have already seen it.
> 2.Is the 2.0 still in green color?
> No, the 2.0 has been painted.
> 3.Dose the 2.0's coat looks like 31001?
> Totally different.
> 4.What is it like? any photos?
> I don't have photos.Don't ask me who have photos. It should be kept secret. I want to play a game that all of you say wow after watching it. Pls keep an eye on other bloggers and wait for them to post the first photo of the 2.0.
> 5.Does it have the logo of PLA？
> emmm…Let me explain it in this way: picking peaches is not a proper behavior.(picking peaches mostly means sit idle and enjoy the fruits)
> 6.Does the 2.0 have new engines?
> Because of some reasons I can't see what the engines are like.It's too dark.
> 7.Doesn't the 2.0 have its first flight?
> No. Let's wait. It's being test these days.
> 
> The capacity of J16 is amazing.
> Something good will happen at the end of this month. But it is too sensitive. Maybe I'll talk about it next year.
> New type aircraft of 2019 will have its first flight.(he say 19款,it can mean 19 types or type of 2019.I belive he means the latter.
> ------------------------------------
> 
> 
> IMO interesting, but again:
> 
> - who is the original poster?
> - how reliable is he (or she)?
> - it's overall a bit confusing: we all know 02 exists since some time and even that it flew already .. so why the 7. question?
> 
> 
> Here's the original tweet:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135480984516698112



Maybe Q6 hinting of using new engines, but he didn't want to say it directly? He said due to special reason, his eyelids almost cracked still can't see what the engines looks like. Too dark.... ( Too dark sometimes have different meaning then just literally dark)


Q7 was asked because this supposedly "new painted 02" haven't done the first flight yet, just test drive/ ground testing right now. If assuming speculation from Q6 possible new engines Or this 02 maybe is 03? Then the question is very valid. But don't know anything about the original poster or his reputation.

As for cartoon pic... maybe navy white color? Or I'm thinking too much.

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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 563956


Hi bro, is there any news China & Pakistan collaborating on J-31 at any level...!!!


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## bahadur999

*Intl interest in China's FC-31 stealth fighter jet grows*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/6/11 17:12:49

_China's made-for-export FC-31 warplane is making a big impression, as reports say international buyers are thinking of buying the stealth fighter jet, with Chinese military experts recommending on Tuesday that China try to seize these opportunities._

_The FC-31 boasts very similar capabilities to the US' F-35 fighter jets, making it a viable option for weapons buyers, experts said._

_Turkey is considering purchasing China's FC-31 and Russia's Su-57 to replace the US' F-35 stealth fighter jet, as Turkey seems determined to procure the Russian-made S-400 air defense system, Weihutang, a military column affiliated with China Central Television, reported on Monday, citing Turkish media._

_The report came after the US threatened Turkey, saying it will not deliver the 100 F-35As to Turkey as planned if Turkey accepts delivery of the Russian air defense system, US media outlet Defense News reported on Friday._

_Potential international buyers' attention on the FC-31 is a good thing, and China should push for such opportunities to export the warplane, Xu Guangyu, a senior consultant at the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times on Tuesday._

_Potential buyers like Turkey may need a huge number of stealth fighter jets, and they could purchase both FC-31 and Su-57 if they do not get the F-35s, Xu said, noting that neither China nor Russia is likely capable of manufacturing as many as a hundred stealth fighter jets for export in a short time._

_China's FC-31, Russia's Su-57 and the US' F-35 are the only three stealth fighter jets available on the international arms market. _

_Developed by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation under the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, the FC-31 is a fifth generation medium-sized twin-engine multirole stealth fighter jet intended for export._

_It made its public debut flight at __Airshow China 2014__ in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, but relatively little was heard of it after that. Analysts said it is being upgraded and could serve as China's next generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet in the future._

_"The Chinese stealth fighter jet has not yet entered mass production or military service. This means it is still being improved. In a year or two, it will likely be built with many more new and advanced technologies," Xu said._

_The FC-31 is very similar to the F-35 in terms of its comprehensive tactical capabilities, and thanks to late-mover advantages, it might become even better, Xu said._

*Here it is said it will be exported...but in this article from the same GT in January (http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1134186.shtml), it is said it WILL NOT be. *

"_The FC-31 is a fourth generation medium-sized stealth fighter jet originally intended for export. Chinese military experts said that the PLA procurement notice suggests the FC-31 is no longer export-oriented, and is destined for domestic military service._"

*So what's going on with it? Yes or No?*


----------



## Pepsi Cola

bahadur999 said:


> *Intl interest in China's FC-31 stealth fighter jet grows*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/6/11 17:12:49
> 
> _China's made-for-export FC-31 warplane is making a big impression, as reports say international buyers are thinking of buying the stealth fighter jet, with Chinese military experts recommending on Tuesday that China try to seize these opportunities._
> 
> _The FC-31 boasts very similar capabilities to the US' F-35 fighter jets, making it a viable option for weapons buyers, experts said._
> 
> _Turkey is considering purchasing China's FC-31 and Russia's Su-57 to replace the US' F-35 stealth fighter jet, as Turkey seems determined to procure the Russian-made S-400 air defense system, Weihutang, a military column affiliated with China Central Television, reported on Monday, citing Turkish media._
> 
> _The report came after the US threatened Turkey, saying it will not deliver the 100 F-35As to Turkey as planned if Turkey accepts delivery of the Russian air defense system, US media outlet Defense News reported on Friday._
> 
> _Potential international buyers' attention on the FC-31 is a good thing, and China should push for such opportunities to export the warplane, Xu Guangyu, a senior consultant at the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times on Tuesday._
> 
> _Potential buyers like Turkey may need a huge number of stealth fighter jets, and they could purchase both FC-31 and Su-57 if they do not get the F-35s, Xu said, noting that neither China nor Russia is likely capable of manufacturing as many as a hundred stealth fighter jets for export in a short time._
> 
> _China's FC-31, Russia's Su-57 and the US' F-35 are the only three stealth fighter jets available on the international arms market. _
> 
> _Developed by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation under the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China, the FC-31 is a fifth generation medium-sized twin-engine multirole stealth fighter jet intended for export._
> 
> _It made its public debut flight at __Airshow China 2014__ in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, but relatively little was heard of it after that. Analysts said it is being upgraded and could serve as China's next generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet in the future._
> 
> _"The Chinese stealth fighter jet has not yet entered mass production or military service. This means it is still being improved. In a year or two, it will likely be built with many more new and advanced technologies," Xu said._
> 
> _The FC-31 is very similar to the F-35 in terms of its comprehensive tactical capabilities, and thanks to late-mover advantages, it might become even better, Xu said._
> 
> *Here it is said it will be exported...but in this article from the same GT in January (http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1134186.shtml), it is said it WILL NOT be. *
> 
> "_The FC-31 is a fourth generation medium-sized stealth fighter jet originally intended for export. Chinese military experts said that the PLA procurement notice suggests the FC-31 is no longer export-oriented, and is destined for domestic military service._"
> 
> *So what's going on with it? Yes or No?*



China sells FC-31 to Turkey --> Uyghurs no longer a problem.


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## kristisipe

Don't be a fool. There should be no Uyghur problem regardless any deal, period.

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## Dungeness

I would put Turkey in "Unreliable Entity List". They fooled China once.....

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## waja2000

Dungeness said:


> I would put Turkey in "Unsalable Entity List". They fooled China once.....



Yes, also Turkey make china difficulty during transport Ex-Russia Aircraft carrier Varyag (now Liaoning Aircraft Carrier) pass Sea of Marmara to Macau China.

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## Shane

Shane said:


> And its FC31 Version 3.0 if Im not wrong. *Bulkier engine and mid fuselage as well as larger intakes. Looks like the next version of current WS13E is a relatively larger engine and bigger fuselage means more fuel and larger internal weapon bays.*





Deino said:


> Nope, its just the same misshaped wrong model we already know from other shows and not a true representative of any future real V3.



Hey @Deino, may be chinese reporters are sometimes reading posts on PDF too, lol, just joking...I guess others are drawing similar false conclusions due to the misshaped model on display as you mentioned earlier.


*China's FC-31 fighter jet shows major upgrades at Paris Air Show*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/6/19 17:49:18





A model of China's FC-31 stealth fighter jet displayed at the Paris Air Show features new designs behind the cockpit and at the engines compared to previous prototypes.

China's fifth-generation stealth fighter jet FC-31 showcased its latest upgrades at the ongoing Paris Air Show, and analysts noted on Wednesday that the displayed model shows noteworthy changes in design that could significantly improve its capabilities.

A scaled model of the FC-31 is being displayed by the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) at the company's stand at the 53rd Paris Air Show, which is scheduled to run from Monday to Sunday.

Chinese military observers and media said the model on display appears to have undergone many changes compared to the aircraft's past designs.

The area behind the cockpit and the areas where the two engines are housed are now bulkier, Weihutang, a military column affiliated with China Central Television, reported on Wednesday.

The optimized aerodynamic design further reduces wind resistance, the report said.

Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times on Wednesday that these changes could mean the aircraft has been made more agile and is capable of carrying more fuel, which will give it a larger operational range.

It might also carry additional electronic devices for communication or satellite links, Wang said.

The upgraded FC-31 might even feature a pair of new engines, reported Ordnance Industry Science Technology, a Xi'an-based periodical on the national defense industry.


http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1154840.shtml

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## Deino

Shane said:


> Hey @Deino, may be chinese reporters are sometimes reading posts on PDF too, lol, just joking...I guess others are drawing similar false conclusions due to the misshaped model on display as you mentioned earlier.
> 
> http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1154840.shtml





Please not ... 

Global times is highly unreliable and also, this model is more or less the same mis-shaped model we already know since two years. It has exactly the same wrong details ...

IMO simply forget it.

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## Shane

Deino said:


> Please not ...
> 
> Global times is highly unreliable and also, this model is more or less the same mis-shaped model we already know since two years. It has exactly the same wrong details ...
> 
> IMO simply forget it.
> 
> View attachment 565957


Aye aye Captain. Only posted it as Google news carried it on my home page and it says about the same as I wrongly inferred.

I already agree with you:


Shane said:


> I guess others are drawing similar false conclusions due to the misshaped model on display as you mentioned earlier.

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## Grandy

*'Upgraded' FC-31 Stealth Jet Model at Paris Airshow 2019*





FC-31 with weapons: Illustration via Chinese media

China displayed a scale-model of its FC-31 stealth fighter jet at the Paris Airshow 2019 with different contours than that of its current prototype triggering speculation that the jet had been upgraded with new features.

“The displayed model shows noteworthy changes in design that could significantly improve its capabilities,” pro-government Global Times noted. The area behind the cockpit and the areas where the two engines are housed are now bulkier and the aerodynamic design has been optimized to further reduce wind resistance, the report noted.

These changes could mean the aircraft has been made more agile and is capable of carrying more fuel, which will give it a larger operational range; it might also carry additional electronic devices for communication or satellite links, the paper said quoting an industry expert.

The upgraded FC-31 might even feature a pair of new engines. The engine nozzles on the FC-31 model displayed in Paris are very different in structure and shape than the ones previously used suggesting more powerful engines.

Despite several years in the making, the J-31 (FC-31 is the designation for the export version), is nowhere near services entry. The first prototype/tech demonstrator flew in 2012. A second prototype with upgrades to its wings, inclusion of IRST sensor and a single piece canopy was shown at the 2014 Zhuhai airshow and its first flight happened only in December 2016.

At that time, it was believed that the design had been frozen and that the aircraft would begin the process of testing its various weapons, communication and stealth features.

Speculation of project delays was rife when the jet did not put up a flying display at the 2018 Zhuhai Air show. However, with new-look mock-up at the ongoing Paris event, possibility of the project skipping timelines of prototype testing and certification cannot be discounted.


----------



## Deino

Grandy said:


> *'Upgraded' FC-31 Stealth Jet Model at Paris Airshow 2019...*.



Did you read this reply ???



Deino said:


> Please not ...
> 
> Global times is highly unreliable and also, this model is more or less the same mis-shaped model we already know since two years. It has exactly the same wrong details ...
> 
> IMO simply forget it.
> 
> View attachment 565957


----------



## JSCh

*New stealth jet project moving ahead on pace*
By ZHAO LEI | China Daily | Updated: 2019-07-09 07:13

















A Chinese FC-31 stealth fighter jet takes off during a demonstration flight ahead of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, also known as Airshow China 2014, in Zhuhai, Guangdong province, on Nov 10, 2014. [Photo by SONG FAN/FOR CHINA DAILY]

Military aircraft in development will be able to carry out air, land, sea attacks 

China's development of the FC-31, the country's second stealth fighter jet, is proceeding smoothly and on schedule, according to its chief designer.

Sun Cong, president of the Chinese Aeronautical Establishment under Aviation Industry Corporation of China, said at a news conference on Thursday in Shenyang, Liaoning province, that people should be patient and wait for good news from the project.

"You will see its latest developments in due course, in the near future," said Sun, who is also the chief researcher at AVIC's Shenyang Aircraft Design and Research Institute.

Sun's comments indicated that China has never wavered in its attempts to develop and build a second series of stealth combat aircraft after the J-20 entered service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force in 2017.

His remarks are likely to reassure anyone concerned about the fate of FC-31 because of its virtual disappearance from public view over the past two years.

The twin-engine, radar-evading fighter jet was unveiled in October 2012 when a prototype made its maiden flight, becoming China's second 5th-generation fighter jet, following the J-20.

The FC-31 has a high survivability rate, a low radar signature, advanced electronic countermeasures, strong information gathering and handling capacity, outstanding situational awareness and beyond-visual-range combat capability.

In addition to air combat, it can also carry out strikes against land and sea targets, according to its designers.

The aircraft has a large weapons bay and can carry multiple external missiles.

According to AVIC specifications, the FC-31 has a maximum takeoff weight of 25 metric tons, a combat range of 1,200 kilometers and a top speed of Mach 1.8, or 2,205 kilometers per hour. It can carry 8 tons of weapons and has a designed life span of up to 30 years.

The FC-31 will enter service in the PLA as the Shenyang institute and Shenyang Aircraft Corp's latest major accomplishment, following the J-15 carrier-based fighter jet and the half-century-old J-8 series fighter jet.

Last week in Shenyang, AVIC marked the 50th anniversary of the J-8's maiden flight, as well as the 10th anniversary of J-15's first flight.

The J-8 was China's first domestically developed combat plane capable of executing high-altitude, high-speed operations, and the series has several variants still in service with the PLA Air Force and PLA Navy. The J-15 is the spearhead of the Navy's carrier battle group and has taken part in many long-distance combat exercises over open seas.

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## bahadur999

JSCh said:


> *New stealth jet project moving ahead on pace*
> By ZHAO LEI | China Daily | Updated: 2019-07-09 07:13
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Chinese FC-31 stealth fighter jet takes off during a demonstration flight ahead of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, also known as Airshow China 2014, in Zhuhai, Guangdong province, on Nov 10, 2014. [Photo by SONG FAN/FOR CHINA DAILY]
> 
> Military aircraft in development will be able to carry out air, land, sea attacks
> 
> China's development of the FC-31, the country's second stealth fighter jet, is proceeding smoothly and on schedule, according to its chief designer.
> 
> Sun Cong, president of the Chinese Aeronautical Establishment under Aviation Industry Corporation of China, said at a news conference on Thursday in Shenyang, Liaoning province, that people should be patient and wait for good news from the project.
> 
> "You will see its latest developments in due course, in the near future," said Sun, who is also the chief researcher at AVIC's Shenyang Aircraft Design and Research Institute.
> 
> Sun's comments indicated that China has never wavered in its attempts to develop and build a second series of stealth combat aircraft after the J-20 entered service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force in 2017.
> 
> His remarks are likely to reassure anyone concerned about the fate of FC-31 because of its virtual disappearance from public view over the past two years.
> 
> The twin-engine, radar-evading fighter jet was unveiled in October 2012 when a prototype made its maiden flight, becoming China's second 5th-generation fighter jet, following the J-20.
> 
> The FC-31 has a high survivability rate, a low radar signature, advanced electronic countermeasures, strong information gathering and handling capacity, outstanding situational awareness and beyond-visual-range combat capability.
> 
> In addition to air combat, it can also carry out strikes against land and sea targets, according to its designers.
> 
> The aircraft has a large weapons bay and can carry multiple external missiles.
> 
> According to AVIC specifications, the FC-31 has a maximum takeoff weight of 25 metric tons, a combat range of 1,200 kilometers and a top speed of Mach 1.8, or 2,205 kilometers per hour. It can carry 8 tons of weapons and has a designed life span of up to 30 years.
> 
> The FC-31 will enter service in the PLA as the Shenyang institute and Shenyang Aircraft Corp's latest major accomplishment, following the J-15 carrier-based fighter jet and the half-century-old J-8 series fighter jet.
> 
> Last week in Shenyang, AVIC marked the 50th anniversary of the J-8's maiden flight, as well as the 10th anniversary of J-15's first flight.
> 
> The J-8 was China's first domestically developed combat plane capable of executing high-altitude, high-speed operations, and the series has several variants still in service with the PLA Air Force and PLA Navy. The J-15 is the spearhead of the Navy's carrier battle group and has taken part in many long-distance combat exercises over open seas.


Almost as if this article was written for us... 

Involvement of the CAE and its relations to SADRI is a riddle. Probably CAE is handling the promotion/funds of the project.
No unveiling dates were announced but i guess there was some delays under the surface. I doubt if the will reveal anything this years (as planned) but 2020 is still possible.


----------



## Stealth

*"In addition to air combat, it can also carry out strikes against land and sea targets, according to its designers"

????*


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## Ultima Thule

Stealth said:


> *"In addition to air combat, it can also carry out strikes against land and sea targets, according to its designers"
> 
> ????*


Its multi role jet similar to F-35 @Stealth sir

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571969




A recent one?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> A recent one?


Maybe not.


----------



## Stealth

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571969



like a Raptor F22 from Front whether old or new... i guess this pic is new... never seen before


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe not.




Agreed, IMO a very old one ...


----------



## JSCh

From weibo,

沉默的山羊
今天 15:01 来自 iPad客户端
沈阳晚报、沈报融媒讯 8月12日，法库县政府透露，一架歼31(绰号：鹘鹰)战机已运抵法库财湖机场，静待本周五第八届沈阳法库国际飞行大会盛大启幕。本届大会将有600架飞行器参展。其中歼31、大型长航时太阳能飞机“墨子2”以及“彩虹”系列无人机等将亮相静态展区。PS：不要喷歼31，新闻稿就是这么写的

Basically, it say that Shenyang local newspaper reported that a J-31 fighter jet was delivered to Faku county Caihu airport in preparation for display at the upcoming 8th Shenyang Faku International Flight Convention grand opening on Friday.

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## Deino

JSCh said:


> From weibo,
> 
> 沉默的山羊
> 今天 15:01 来自 iPad客户端
> 沈阳晚报、沈报融媒讯 8月12日，法库县政府透露，一架歼31(绰号：鹘鹰)战机已运抵法库财湖机场，静待本周五第八届沈阳法库国际飞行大会盛大启幕。本届大会将有600架飞行器参展。其中歼31、大型长航时太阳能飞机“墨子2”以及“彩虹”系列无人机等将亮相静态展区。PS：不要喷歼31，新闻稿就是这么写的
> 
> Basically, it say that Shenyang local newspaper reported that a J-31 fighter jet was delivered to Faku county Caihu airport in preparation for display at the upcoming 8th Shenyang Faku International Flight Convention grand opening on Friday.



But still not with the PLAAF star&bar-symbol!


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> But still not with the PLAAF star&bar-symbol!


A mock-up.


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> A mock-up.




I know, but even a mock up with PLAAF emblem would be a hint.


----------



## Stealth

JSCh said:


> From weibo,
> 
> 沉默的山羊
> 今天 15:01 来自 iPad客户端
> 沈阳晚报、沈报融媒讯 8月12日，法库县政府透露，一架歼31(绰号：鹘鹰)战机已运抵法库财湖机场，静待本周五第八届沈阳法库国际飞行大会盛大启幕。本届大会将有600架飞行器参展。其中歼31、大型长航时太阳能飞机“墨子2”以及“彩虹”系列无人机等将亮相静态展区。PS：不要喷歼31，新闻稿就是这么写的
> 
> Basically, it say that Shenyang local newspaper reported that a J-31 fighter jet was delivered to Faku county Caihu airport in preparation for display at the upcoming 8th Shenyang Faku International Flight Convention grand opening on Friday.



Pakistan future aircraft soon display in upcoming show


----------



## Sabretooth

What Happened to the vertical stabilizer? Which one is it going to be?

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## Deino

Sabretooth said:


> What Happened to the vertical stabilizer? Which one is it going to be?
> 
> View attachment 573896




The one on top is the first demonstrator, the seconnd below a mock up of the improved one. So unlikely the first one.

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## LKJ86

JSCh said:


> From weibo,
> 
> 沉默的山羊
> 今天 15:01 来自 iPad客户端
> 沈阳晚报、沈报融媒讯 8月12日，法库县政府透露，一架歼31(绰号：鹘鹰)战机已运抵法库财湖机场，静待本周五第八届沈阳法库国际飞行大会盛大启幕。本届大会将有600架飞行器参展。其中歼31、大型长航时太阳能飞机“墨子2”以及“彩虹”系列无人机等将亮相静态展区。PS：不要喷歼31，新闻稿就是这么写的
> 
> Basically, it say that Shenyang local newspaper reported that a J-31 fighter jet was delivered to Faku county Caihu airport in preparation for display at the upcoming 8th Shenyang Faku International Flight Convention grand opening on Friday.

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## Deino

Could anyone give a summary of this event?


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## LKJ86



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## UniverseWatcher

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 574681
> View attachment 574682


cant wait for the real bird

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 574681
> View attachment 574682




Oh well, these made my day ! 

Can't wait to se these becoming true.

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## Stealth

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 574324
> View attachment 574325



Like a RAPTOR! missing Raptor style V.stab

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## Beethoven

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 574681
> View attachment 574682


Absolute beauty......cant wait to see it in PAF colors

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/2694995107/4410057556678517

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## smooth manifold

It's really questionable FC31 will be on carriers. The debate isn't over.


----------



## aziqbal

FC.31 V3 still no show?

is this officially the slowest project?


----------



## Ultima Thule

aziqbal said:


> FC.31 V3 still no show?
> 
> is this officially the slowest project?


Its company funded project not funded by PLAAF or PLAN that's why its slow @aziqbal


----------



## LKJ86

Via CJDBY


----------



## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 577580
> 
> Via CJDBY



Repainted FC-31 or J-35 prototype?

I'm leaning towards the former.


----------



## Stealth

Akasa said:


> Repainted FC-31 or J-35 prototype?
> 
> I'm leaning towards the former.



The canopy style is different from V1


----------



## LKJ86

Akasa said:


> Repainted FC-31 or J-35 prototype?
> 
> I'm leaning towards the former.


FC-31 V2

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173112194168500224

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 4 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## The Eagle

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 582874
> View attachment 582875
> View attachment 582876
> View attachment 582877
> View attachment 582878
> 
> Via CCTV 4 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo



Seems like a routine TV show but I am wondering; why still showcasing V1 and nothing much coming out of the project?

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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> Seems like a routine TV show but I am wondering; why still showcasing V1 and nothing much coming out of the project?




Me too ... I must admit I wish they would finally unveil the painted second one.







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182503146074992640

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182502827735695362

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## Ali_Baba

Its a nice looking plane, with good capability. Shame China is not buying it for themselves, because if they did, then i am sure PAF would also order a batch or 2. FC31 is viable in PAF, if China also buys it(so that it averages out the cost of supporting it over 30 years etc).


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## LKJ86

Ali_Baba said:


> Its a nice looking plane, with good capability. Shame China is not buying it for themselves, because if they did, then i am sure PAF would also order a batch or 2. FC31 is viable in PAF, if China also buys it(so that it averages out the cost of supporting it over 30 years etc).


PLAAF and PLAN would buy what they need.

Besides, the winner-takes-all is impossible in AVIC.


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## Ali_Baba

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF and PLAN would buy what they need.
> 
> Besides, the winner-takes-all is impossible in AVIC.



True, and same with PAF. This bird really does look like it has no future.


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## Deino

Ali_Baba said:


> True, and same with PAF. This bird really does look like it has no future.




Why, I really don't understand all this lamenting! 

IMO it is a great concept and all it lacks is a decent modern engine and - and here the rumours are quite varying - a hard confirmation from the PLA. But hey, maybe there is already and they only do not want to unveil their true intentions ... why are you so sure?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ali_Baba said:


> Its a nice looking plane, with good capability. Shame China is not buying it for themselves, because if they did, then i am sure PAF would also order a batch or 2. FC31 is viable in PAF, if China also buys it(so that it averages out the cost of supporting it over 30 years etc).





Deino said:


> Why, I really don't understand all this lamenting!
> 
> IMO it is a great concept and all it lacks is a decent modern engine and - and here the rumours are quite varying - a hard confirmation from the PLA. But hey, maybe there is already and they only do not want to unveil their true intentions ... why are you so sure?


In the May 2019 interview with Jane's, the PAF CAS said the FGFA ASR is twin-engine. So, though the PAF insists there's another design in the works locally, you just never know how things turn out.


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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF and PLAN would buy what they need.
> 
> Besides, the winner-takes-all is impossible in AVIC.


why not China give this whole project to Pakistan with transfer of technology.just suggestion...


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## 帅的一匹

这个破项目到底有没有前景？真她妈辣鸡


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## LKJ86

python-000 said:


> why not China give this whole project to Pakistan with transfer of technology.just suggestion...


Without an independent aviation industry, ToT is not very meaningful.


----------



## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> Without an independent aviation industry, ToT is not very meaningful.


Yes you r absolutely right my bro but i think China can help Pakistan in this sector to what do u think...


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## vi-va

python-000 said:


> Yes you r absolutely right my bro but i think China can help Pakistan in this sector to what do u think...


That means Pakistan needs to invest a lot of on high tech department. No offense, but it means Pakistan need to import a lot of equipment from all over the world, China can supply most of them, such as hydraulic press forge.

Pakistan need tens of billions of hard cash down payment. I think Pakistan will do it when CPEC get enough fruits.

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## Deino

viva_zhao said:


> That means Pakistan needs to invest a lot of on high tech department. No offense, but it means Pakistan need to import a lot of equipment from all over the world, China can supply most of them, such as hydraulic press forge.
> 
> Pakistan need tens of billions of hard cash down payment. I think Pakistan will do it when CPEC get enough fruits.
> View attachment 584367
> 
> View attachment 584368




Can we please leave out Pakistan on this thread? there is a dedicated FC-31 topic in the PAF section (https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...rcraft-for-paf-updates-debate.343466/page-174) but again and again to discuss how much Pakistan would, could, should benefit from this project if China would supply is boring and irrelevant to the Chinese military.

Thanks

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## LKJ86

Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## The Eagle

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 585612
> 
> Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo



This is in-fact V2 of FC-31. Unfortunately, we aren't seeing much from this project except few pictures as such that too with span of month.

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## Fsjal

FC-31 V2 is honestly a nice conventional design. A shame that its future remains a bit ambiguous. Since J-20 is its bigger and heavier counterpart, FC-31 would be decent enough to fill in the lightweight stealth fighter slot within the PLAAF.

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## Ali_Baba

FC31 is a dead dead project, it is going nowhere fast. No one wants this puppy, its only a matter of time when SAC shuts it down completely.


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## LKJ86

Ali_Baba said:


> FC31 is a dead dead project, it is going nowhere fast. No one wants this puppy, its only a matter of time when SAC shuts it down completely.


FC-31 is just another L-15.
It is impossible for AVIC to provide another choice for PLAAF or PLAN.


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> FC-31 is just another L-15.
> It is impossible for AVIC to provide another choice for PLAAF or PLAN.



There was a rumor that a naval fighter is being developed on the basis of the FC-31, and is supposedly called "J-35". Any news or developments for that alleged program?


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

FC-31 is same size class as J-10. Could have made a good J-10 replacement down the road.

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## lcloo

The only way for (private) J31 project to proceed is to have a committed buyer with big stash of money, so far there is no none. 

Chinese saying 一山不容二虎 "A mountain can not accommodate two tigers", thus there in no place for J31 in PLAAF, though there is still a chance for J31 in PLAN.


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## waja2000

Fsjal said:


> FC-31 V2 is honestly a nice conventional design. A shame that its future remains a bit ambiguous. Since J-20 is its bigger and heavier counterpart, FC-31 would be decent enough to fill in the lightweight stealth fighter slot within the PLAAF.



FC-31 is mid class stealth fighter seems small to Fit PLAAF requirement (PLAAF prefer heavy figther due large airspace) also FC-31 not yet receive proper engine to perform what can do. wait see next year news said will have new engine for FC-31.



Austin Powers said:


> FC-31 is same size class as J-10. Could have made a good J-10 replacement down the road.



That is many people talk, but for PLAAF FC-31 too much purchase/operation cost compare to J-10. so J-20/J-11/J/15/Su35 pair with J-10 now. dual-engine VS Single engine cost,
news said Chengdu Aircraft develop new Single engine stealth fighter to replace J-10 possible see in 2023-24

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## Fsjal

waja2000 said:


> FC-31 is mid class stealth fighter seems small to Fit PLAAF requirement (PLAAF prefer heavy figther due large airspace) also FC-31 not yet receive proper engine to perform what can do. wait see next year news said will have new engine for FC-31.


Heavy fighters like J-11B do give PLAAF the necessary range for operations within and around China, but lighter fighters like J-10 are cheaper and less maintenance-intensive which is why PLAAF operates large numbers of J-10 to complement its Sino-Flanker fleet. FC-31 has potential for supplementing the J-20 in PLAAF service.

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## Deino

Happy 7th anniversary ... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189926343846154240

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## Stealth

Dead?


----------



## JSCh

*China begins development of new stealth fighter jet: report*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/12/13 18:43:40 Last Updated: 2019/12/14 0:45:21



A Chinese FC-31 stealth fighter has its test flight. Photo: Xinhua

China is developing a new type of fighter jet, according to the country's top aircraft design institutes on Thursday. Military observers predict, based on publicly available information, that the aircraft will be stealth-capable and feature the significant use of advanced composite materials.

In 2018, the structure department of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Shenyang Aircraft Design and Research Institute and the arms project department of the AVIC Manufacturing Technology Institute jointly established a team codenamed "JJ" with the aim of developing a new type of fighter jet, according to an article released on both institutes' public WeChat accounts this week.

The joint-development project was first planned in June 2018 and commenced with an opening ceremony in September 2018. The JJ team submitted an illustration of a test piece in November 2019, according to the article.

The article did not elaborate on the name or specifics of the new fighter jet, but it provided a photo which suggests the JJ team might include a smaller group focused on the development of an S-shaped air duct.

S-shaped air ducts are usually found in stealth aircraft as they obscure the engine from hostile radar, a military expert who asked to remain anonymous told the Global Times on Friday.

Three groups under the JJ team received awards during a commendation ceremony held on Tuesday, the article read. Two of the groups developed composite materials for the entire structure and integrated metal inlet, while the other preliminarily demonstrated a type of advanced material.

"The team has completed the cross-phase development of the new fighter jet. [We] have used innovation and realized a technical breakthrough for the body's design and manufacturing," said Xiao Shan, one of the awarded researchers, according to the article.

AVIC's Shenyang branch is known for developing a number of Chinese fighter jets including the J-11, the J-16, and in particular the J-15 carrier-based fighter jet. It also designed China's second stealth aircraft following the J-20, namely the FC-31, which did not enter Chinese military service and became a made-for-export product.

Some military observers have speculated that the new fighter jet could be an upgraded, domestic version of the FC-31, while others predict it could be an entirely different aircraft.

Many military enthusiasts also expect the Shenyang Institute to develop China's next-generation carrier-based fighter jet.

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## Akasa

JSCh said:


> *China begins development of new stealth fighter jet: report*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2019/12/13 18:43:40 Last Updated: 2019/12/14 0:45:21
> 
> 
> 
> A Chinese FC-31 stealth fighter has its test flight. Photo: Xinhua
> 
> China is developing a new type of fighter jet, according to the country's top aircraft design institutes on Thursday. Military observers predict, based on publicly available information, that the aircraft will be stealth-capable and feature the significant use of advanced composite materials.
> 
> In 2018, the structure department of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Shenyang Aircraft Design and Research Institute and the arms project department of the AVIC Manufacturing Technology Institute jointly established a team codenamed "JJ" with the aim of developing a new type of fighter jet, according to an article released on both institutes' public WeChat accounts this week.
> 
> The joint-development project was first planned in June 2018 and commenced with an opening ceremony in September 2018. The JJ team submitted an illustration of a test piece in November 2019, according to the article.
> 
> The article did not elaborate on the name or specifics of the new fighter jet, but it provided a photo which suggests the JJ team might include a smaller group focused on the development of an S-shaped air duct.
> 
> S-shaped air ducts are usually found in stealth aircraft as they obscure the engine from hostile radar, a military expert who asked to remain anonymous told the Global Times on Friday.
> 
> Three groups under the JJ team received awards during a commendation ceremony held on Tuesday, the article read. Two of the groups developed composite materials for the entire structure and integrated metal inlet, while the other preliminarily demonstrated a type of advanced material.
> 
> "The team has completed the cross-phase development of the new fighter jet. [We] have used innovation and realized a technical breakthrough for the body's design and manufacturing," said Xiao Shan, one of the awarded researchers, according to the article.
> 
> AVIC's Shenyang branch is known for developing a number of Chinese fighter jets including the J-11, the J-16, and in particular the J-15 carrier-based fighter jet. It also designed China's second stealth aircraft following the J-20, namely the FC-31, which did not enter Chinese military service and became a made-for-export product.
> 
> Some military observers have speculated that the new fighter jet could be an upgraded, domestic version of the FC-31, while others predict it could be an entirely different aircraft.
> 
> Many military enthusiasts also expect the Shenyang Institute to develop China's next-generation carrier-based fighter jet.



What does "cross-phase" mean? Production-vs-design transition?


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## JSCh

Akasa said:


> What does "cross-phase" mean? Production-vs-design transition?


Hard to tell, probably from design to detail design and production of prototype, since it mention manufacturing.


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## Deino

It seems as if AVIC itself lifted the veil of secrecy about the future carrier-borne fighter giving a strong hint that a much redesigned variant has been selected by PLAN (already rumored as J-35) to be powered by the new WS-19.
(Image via AVIC Weibo account)

https://www.weibo.com/3061210763/Ilw13bjX4?type=comment#_rnd1576759928989

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## Deino

*With now being pretty much confirmed I would suggest to continue at least the naval related FC-31 discussion here in this thread!*

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/j-xy-next-generation-carrier-borne-fighter.518751/


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## smooth manifold

Deino said:


> It seems as if AVIC itself lifted the veil of secrecy about the future carrier-borne fighter giving a strong hint that a much redesigned variant has been selected by PLAN (already rumored as J-35) to be powered by the new WS-19.
> (Image via AVIC Weibo account)
> 
> https://www.weibo.com/3061210763/Ilw13bjX4?type=comment#_rnd1576759928989
> 
> View attachment 594590



Better not be fooled by the misleading information. I personally believe J20 will be future carrier-borne fighter. the real "thing" always keeps a low profile

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1208676596888064002

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1208730864290586625

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1208730864290586625


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...ews-discussions.207796/page-240#post-10464847

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sac-...ews-discussions.207796/page-240#post-10464847



Oh well ... and even with my own reply then. 

... I'm getting old!

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## Deino



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## graphican

Deino said:


> View attachment 595084
> View attachment 595085



What are we looking at? Would it be an improved version?


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## Deino

graphican said:


> What are we looking at? Would it be an improved version?



Just an older image of the second prototype


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1209027477366030336

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> Just an older image of the second prototype
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1209027477366030336



Old pics


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## Deino

Stealth said:


> Old pics




As stated!


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Deino said:


> View attachment 595084
> View attachment 595085



Different Engines ?
One (left) nozzle is black and small in diameter and right one is same old RD-93.

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## Deino

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Different Engines ?
> One (left) nozzle is black and small in diameter and right one is same old RD-93.




Already know since some time ... this is from December 2017

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## StormBreaker

Stealth said:


> agreed sirf Avionics update huway haib aur yehi baat mujhe koi 1 saal prhlay se pata thi in fact kafi saroon ko par batanay walay string laga detay hain agay baat na karain phir yehi hota hay well Pakistani Airforce think tabks thira disapointed hain.. Sohail Aman kay waqt may PAF TT was interested kay agar koi mature prototype J31 ka aye aur phir ham usmay with Chinese invest karain resources but that project is still in dev... jiskay delay ki waja se Pakistan ziada investment nahi karna chah raha until kuch positive aye... J31 ka jo ub prototype ayega probably in Feb/Mar 2020, Aap phir Pakistan ki phurtyaan dekhna lol
> 
> 
> extreme poor quality of work



Buddy, could you expand on this FC-31 prototype flight in March/feb you are talking about, is it confirmed ?

Will it be v3 or the newly teased AVIC J-35 ?

@Deino @LKJ86 any news on this


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## Deino

What do you think of this?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213752277992923136
IMO simply again the FC-31 or are there rumors about a maiden flight?

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## PeacefulWar

Deino said:


> What do you think of this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213752277992923136
> IMO simply again the FC-31 or are there rumors about a maiden flight?


Looks slightly different than J31, the wingspan seems wider to me in this picture.

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> What do you think of this?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213752277992923136
> IMO simply again the FC-31 or are there rumors about a maiden flight?


It’s wings look like v1 but Horizontal stabilizers like v2 and the wingspan seems a bit lengthier


----------



## JSCh

Cover of 兵工科技 (Ordnance Industry Science Technology) magazine supplement.

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## StormBreaker

JSCh said:


> Cover of 兵工科技 (Ordnance Industry Science Technology) magazine supplement.


@Deino So J-31 name is indeed official or this organization is not related to AVIC and SAC ?

Nonetheless, interesting poster, J-31 isn’t dead yet and carrier version is on progress


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## Deino

Actually I don't think they take it too seriously with the designations.

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Actually I don't think they take it too seriously with the designations.


Sorry for derailing that thread


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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> Sorry for derailing that thread



Why do you apologize? It was a more than legit question and I replied to my best knowledge ... but I may be wrong.

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## Akasa

JSCh said:


> Cover of 兵工科技 (Ordnance Industry Science Technology) magazine supplement.



How legit is Ordnance Industry Science Technology's magazine in terms of credibility and authoritativeness?

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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> View attachment 599708
> View attachment 599709
> 
> 
> Ohh so you weren’t doing this ?
> 
> Hi Mr.XYZ mod, these blinks make me blush



Indeed, but since You replied to my reply to the FC-31 or J-31 cover I did not notice you were speaking about the J-20 thread.

Anad again, not an issue ... I only want to keep everything of relevance in the real J-20 thread and separate it from the fan's dreamer J-20 & engine thread.

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## JSCh

Akasa said:


> How legit is Ordnance Industry Science Technology's magazine in terms of credibility and authoritativeness?


It is a professional military magazine, but it is not official military outlet or anything like that. The cover is on an issue on next gen carrier borne aircraft, so the picture might just be a speculation/example only.

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 599875



Each time you post I nearly get a heart attack due to excitement ... could you please add a summary or at least, what happened?

Thanks,
Deino

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## GeHAC

Deino said:


> Each time you post I nearly get a heart attack due to excitement ... could you please add a summary or at least, what happened?
> 
> Thanks,
> Deino


One renowned Chinese military news personage, Yankee, has got new information about the wind-tunnel model for next-gen carrier based fighter. The model keeps undergoing tests even after the first prototype was built.

I think that is just another rumor, coz Yankee has not update any information about it.

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## Akasa

GeHAC said:


> One renowned Chinese military news personage, Yankee, has got new information about the wind-tunnel model for next-gen carrier based fighter. The model keeps undergoing tests even after the first prototype was built.
> 
> I think that is just another rumor, coz Yankee has not update any information about it.



Meaning that the design is not frozen yet and the prototype will have to be rebuilt?


----------



## Deino

GeHAC said:


> One renowned Chinese military news personage, Yankee, has got new information about the wind-tunnel model for next-gen carrier based fighter. The model keeps undergoing tests even after the first prototype was built.
> 
> I think that is just another rumor, coz Yankee has not update any information about it.




Thanks a lot, but as @Akasa noted, I'm surprised, why "wind-tunnel model testing should continue even after the first prototype was built" ... and WAS built means, it is already finished?


----------



## Akasa

Deino said:


> Thanks a lot, but as @Akasa noted, I'm surprised, why "wind-tunnel model testing should continue even after the first prototype was built" ... and WAS built means, it is already finished?



I can actually speak Chinese, so I can provide some more details.

1. The first post from this guy said that a particular "carrier-based aircraft from a Northern institute" (i.e. 601) is about to appear very soon.

2. The second post said that *even if* the prototype is built, the wind tunnel model will continue testing. OP also mentions that earlier estimates of the J-XY's progress has been underestimated because they were solely going off the wind tunnel test reports.

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## enroger

My guess is if J-35 does exists, it would be a massive re-design of FC-31 with emphasis at reducing cross section area as much as humanly possible and improved area ruling.

Part of the effort of reducing cross section would be to shrink the main missile bay (from 6 bvr reduced to 4, folded wing missile), and maybe add side bay for ir missile.

If I turned out to be right you guys can worship me later.

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## Ali_Baba

enroger said:


> My guess is if J-35 does exists, it would be a massive re-design of FC-31 with emphasis at reducing cross section area as much as humanly possible and improved area ruling.
> 
> Part of the effort of reducing cross section would be to shrink the main missile bay (from 6 bvr reduced to 4, folded wing missile), and maybe add side bay for ir missile.
> 
> If I turned out to be right you guys can worship me later.



you may get worshipped if china buys the j-35.. otherwise it is a dead duck ..


----------



## Ultima Thule

Ali_Baba said:


> you may get worshipped if china buys the j-35.. otherwise it is a dead duck ..


No FC-31 evolving as a J-35, PLAAN showed interest in it for its upcoming nuclear powered aircraft carrier


----------



## enroger

Ali_Baba said:


> you may get worshipped if china buys the j-35.. otherwise it is a dead duck ..



The navy has to pick one anyway, be it a navalized J-20, FC-31 or a brand new design. My money is on FC-31 evolution. Anyway they must have already made the choice a while back, won't be too long until it is known to all.

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## LKJ86

Via @某某某某6688 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 612271
> 
> Via @某某某某6688 from Weibo




Finally !!!!

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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 612271
> 
> Via @某某某某6688 from Weibo



Any recent news or rumors about the new-generation carrier-based aircraft (J-35)?


----------



## StormBreaker

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 612271
> 
> Via @某某某某6688 from Weibo





Deino said:


> Finally !!!!



@aliyusuf @HRK @Mangus Ortus Novem 





LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 612271
> 
> Via @某某某某6688 from Weibo


V3 ?

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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> V3 ?



Nope ... only V2

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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> @aliyusuf @HRK @Mangus Ortus Novem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V3 ?





Deino said:


> Nope ... only V2
> 
> View attachment 612274


It is definitely beginning to look better and bigger somehow than the V1.


----------



## Deino

aliyusuf said:


> It is definitely beginning to look better and bigger somehow than the V1.




Not sure about, but I like it ... what is even more astonishing - as per some tweets - that image was allegedly taken already in *2018*!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237057018726236160

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Not sure about, but I like it ... what is even more astonishing - as per some tweets - that image was allegedly taken already in *2018*!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237057018726236160


I guess it is the same shot which was earlier taken half or cropped, but definitely the same day.
Weather and daylight suggests otherwise...


----------



## ziaulislam

Seems the project is full steam ahead


----------



## StormBreaker

ziaulislam said:


> Seems the project is full steam ahead


No, not yet.

It could very well be just a major study case, to assist in J-35 as well as sixth Gen platform, SAC might want to reach that plateau faster than CAC i think.

The answer we need about FC-31 program lies in v3 and possible AVIC display of v3 in near exhibitions and Air Shows. If the platform does showcase export-cleared _*FIFTH GEN*_ tech, then we can safely assume that China is pursuing this project further for export or even self procurement


----------



## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> No, not yet.
> 
> It could very well be just a major study case, to assist in J-35 as well as sixth Gen platform, SAC might want to reach that plateau faster than CAC i think.
> 
> The answer we need about FC-31 program lies in v3 and possible AVIC display of v3 in near exhibitions and Air Shows. If the platform does showcase export-cleared _*FIFTH GEN*_ tech, then we can safely assume that China is pursuing this project further for export or even self procurement



So maybe aiming for Zhuhai 2020?


----------



## Basel

Deino said:


> Nope ... only V2
> 
> View attachment 612274



What is opinion about its RCS after having look of the picture??


----------



## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> So maybe aiming for Zhuhai 2020?


If the flight happens and made public before the event, nothing is stopping for the New Variant to be Marketed or for the time being, more specifically, Displayed.

We could very well be seeing a flight display finally in the Zhuhai, If the v3 was designed to address the shortcomings of the two earlier designs, v3 most probably is sort of a sorted out model, maybe even ready for LRIP once required by customer (local/international).



Basel said:


> What is opinion about its RCS after having look of the picture??


Design is no doubt, Low profile and RCS with stealthy features such as DSI, V tail swept further down, Diamond nose.

Since this is still a v2, the design overall is a major upgrade over the original demonstrator, slim and broader body. Canopy seems sunk in as compared to v1.

Shortcomings are still there apparently, and that has got to do more with the evident exposure of engine and nozzles, no coating or any structure to reduce their exposure and heat radiation YET.
Another thing, which is a question mark in general over Chinese fifth Gen Aircrafts are the stealth coatings, Are they plain RAM coatings, layer by layer or are they heated down into the structure holes and body, latter being the case with F-35 and F-22 resulting in an extremely low RCS.

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> Not sure about, but I like it ... what is even more astonishing - as per some tweets - that image was allegedly taken already in *2018*!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1237057018726236160



old shot... have seen last year

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## StormBreaker

Stealth said:


> old shot... have seen last year


So did I thought !!
Still waiting btw, of your tease regarding the v3 flight


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## Deino

Stealth said:


> old shot... have seen last year




Yes, in November last year parts of it were posted, but the whole one only today (at least as far as I know)

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Yes, in November last year parts of it were posted, but the whole one only today (at least as far as I know)


That’s exactly what i was referring to in early post, could you post that tease pic as well ? The one that had only the stabilizer i guess


----------



## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> That’s exactly what i was referring to in early post, could you post that tease pic as well ? The one that had only the stabilizer i guess



Yes ... in fact there two snippets posted, which I pasted together to this:

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## Jamie Brooks

Deino said:


> Yes ... in fact there two snippets posted, which I pasted together to this:
> 
> View attachment 612296


What was the need to hide out the engine nozzles before? Are these engines different? Ws-13? I am no expert so forgive me for my lack of knowledge;/


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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> Nope ... only V2
> 
> View attachment 612274



Any indication the design has been scaled up to use the WS-10 engines, due to the delay in the engine programs?


----------



## StormBreaker

FuturePAF said:


> Any indication the design has been scaled up to use the WS-10 engines, due to the delay in the engine programs?


If only that was so simple, we would be flying WS-10 Thunders...

Grow up Yar, Can you imagine an airframe, designed to sustain a limited thrust and resistance, to actually be capable to host engines having 35-45% more thrust and in turn the drag it could create, It would shatter mid air, Wings apart, body reduced to rubbles...

Having 2 WS-10 is not a joke and that definitely is suitable for a Heavy class fighter such as Flanker or even heavier J-20, unlike FC-31 being a medium

WS-19 is probably getting closer and closer, maybe enter production by late 2022

@Deino Could you summarize the recent developments known on the WS-19 please ? Since you keep yourself updated with details.

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## Jamie Brooks

StormBreaker said:


> If only that was so simple, we would be flying WS-10 Thunders...
> 
> Grow up Yar, Can you imagine an airframe, designed to sustain a limited thrust and resistance, to actually be capable to host engines having 35-45% more thrust and in turn the drag it could create, It would shatter mid air, Wings apart, body reduced to rubbles...
> 
> Having 2 WS-10 is not a joke and that definitely is suitable for a Heavy class fighter such as Flanker or even heavier J-20, unlike FC-31 being a medium
> 
> WS-19 is probably getting closer and closer, maybe enter production by late 2022
> 
> @Deino Could you summarize the recent developments known on the WS-19 please ? Since you keep yourself updated with details.


If I remember correctly ws-10 is alot larger than rd-93 and the m88 from the Rafale and ej-2000 from euro fighter are about the same size as ws-13. Ws-19 also about same size but more powerful.

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## StormBreaker

Jamie Brooks said:


> If I remember correctly ws-10 is alot larger than rd-93 and the m88 from the Rafale and ej-2000 from euro fighter are about the same size as ws-13. Ws-19 also about same size but more powerful.


Different leagues, WS-10 is in the league of F-16/SU-XX/F-15 Engine while RD-93, WS13, WS19, M88, EJ200


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## Jamie Brooks



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## FuturePAF

StormBreaker said:


> If only that was so simple, we would be flying WS-10 Thunders...
> 
> Grow up Yar, Can you imagine an airframe, designed to sustain a limited thrust and resistance, to actually be capable to host engines having 35-45% more thrust and in turn the drag it could create, It would shatter mid air, Wings apart, body reduced to rubbles...
> 
> Having 2 WS-10 is not a joke and that definitely is suitable for a Heavy class fighter such as Flanker or even heavier J-20, unlike FC-31 being a medium
> 
> WS-19 is probably getting closer and closer, maybe enter production by late 2022
> 
> @Deino Could you summarize the recent developments known on the WS-19 please ? Since you keep yourself updated with details.



The PLANAF wants a Stealth fighter for its future carriers. it has been hinted that that fighter will be called the "J-35"; based on the FC-31 Design but may have wanted a redesign using the WS-15 engines to be studied, hence my question.

They wanted to deploy the J-20 but for some reason, which I don't remember at this time, they have decided not to go with the J-20 in its current form. Also the PLANAF is having problems with the J-15 design on their carriers. Also the Chinese may want to retain the distance their carrier borne fighters can perform, hence the desire to keep a heavier engine.

*FC-31/J-35 Gyrfalcon*
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/


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## Deino

FuturePAF said:


> The PLANAF wants a Stealth fighter for its future carriers. it has been hinted that that fighter will be called the "J-35"; based on the FC-31 Design but may have wanted a redesign using the WS-15 engines to be studied, hence my question.
> 
> ...




AFAIK there was never - at least not a realistic - "want to redesign using the WS-15". These rumours were at best fan-boy's wishfull thinking it again might be so easy to swap two smaller engines for one bigger since they rate it a F-35-clone anyway!

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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> AFAIK there was never - at least not a realistic - "want to redesign using the WS-15". These rumours were at best fan-boy's wishfull thinking it again might be so easy to swap two smaller engines for one bigger since they rate it a F-35-clone anyway!



Not swapping out the engine on this design, but a new design similar to this one that was a “conventional” layout heavy stealth fighter instead of the heavy canard delta J-20. Perhaps it was just a fan boy idea that has been circulating, but I recalled a desire by the PLAAF for side bays for the PL-10 and nearly similar or just slightly smaller center bay to that of the J-20. While it is possible the current design may have room to accommodate the side bays, perhaps it maybe seen as still underpowered to fit the PLAAF requirement, which maybe why it is not being accepted by them. This was the reason for my question. That and the engine exhaust being photoshopped out of earlier picture raised the question; why did they photoshop out the exhaust if it is just RD-93? Maybe it’s the WS-13/WS-19 or maybe not.


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## StormBreaker

@Deino Why is the left engine nozzle constricted while the other is open free BTW ?
Is it due to a possible engine difference ?


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## Deino

FuturePAF said:


> Not swapping out the engine on this design, but a new design similar to this one that was a “conventional” layout heavy stealth fighter instead of the heavy canard delta J-20. Perhaps it was just a fan boy idea that has been circulating, but I recalled a desire by the PLAAF for side bays for the PL-10 and nearly similar or just slightly smaller center bay to that of the J-20. While it is possible the current design may have room to accommodate the side bays, perhaps it maybe seen as still underpowered to fit the PLAAF requirement, which maybe why it is not being accepted by them. This was the reason for my question. That and the engine exhaust being photoshopped out of earlier picture raised the question; why did they photoshop out the exhaust if it is just RD-93? Maybe it’s the WS-13/WS-19 or maybe not.



But IMO this was unrealistic right from the beginning: A single engined - aka WS-15 powered - type in the size of a medium-weight stealth fighter with side bays and a main weapons bay would be at least similar in size to the FC-31 and given the estimated thrust of a WS-15 of about 180 kN - and that not even yet - would falls short against two 100kN engines. 

I know, the argument now would be, what's about the F-35 and its F135 engine?? ... Yes, but so far CHina has no engine in this thrust range.



Jamie Brooks said:


>




These statistics are based on what??

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## Beast

FuturePAF said:


> The PLANAF wants a Stealth fighter for its future carriers. it has been hinted that that fighter will be called the "J-35"; based on the FC-31 Design but may have wanted a redesign using the WS-15 engines to be studied, hence my question.
> 
> They wanted to deploy the J-20 but for some reason, which I don't remember at this time, they have decided not to go with the J-20 in its current form. Also the PLANAF is having problems with the J-15 design on their carriers. Also the Chinese may want to retain the distance their carrier borne fighters can perform, hence the desire to keep a heavier engine.
> 
> *FC-31/J-35 Gyrfalcon*
> http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/


I dont know why keep repeating the nonsense of problem with J-15. They even restart the production line of J-15. If there is any problem, its problem will be lack of stealth against F-35. Same for F-18E, Rafale and Mig-29K.

J-15 has great agility, great payload and long legged. It is much better than Mig-29K.

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## StormBreaker

Beast said:


> I dont know why keep repeating the nonsense of problem with J-15. They even restart the production line of J-15. If there is any problem, its problem will be lack of stealth against F-35. Same for F-18E, Rafale and Mig-29K.
> 
> J-15 has great agility, great payload and long legged. It is much better than Mig-29K.


Indeed...

The problem was with the restrictions of the first 2 carriers and the launch systems, 002 have proven quite compatible for J-15

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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> @Deino Why is the left engine nozzle constricted while the other is open free BTW ?
> Is it due to a possible engine difference ?




Good question but not that unusual, we've seen that before on the FC-31 similar to the original F-14A, where also most often one nozzle was closed and the other remained open.

Maybe anyone with more knowledge can explain?

Deino

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## LKJ86

StormBreaker said:


> Indeed...
> 
> The problem was with the restrictions of the first 2 carriers and the launch systems, 002 have proven quite compatible for J-15


J-15 is the only heavyweight carrier-based fighter jet still in production now in world.

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Good question but not that unusual, we've seen that before on the FC-31 similar to the original F-14A, where also most often one nozzle was closed and the other remained open.
> 
> Maybe anyone with more knowledge can explain?
> 
> Deino


Sole reason of my asking was due to the previous history of similar cases with two different engines having one nozzle opened while the other constricted.

However, nothing evident to claim any possible difference of engine since this is a common sight on flankers usually.



LKJ86 said:


> J-15 is the only heavyweight carrier-based fighter jet still in production now in world.


China should also pursue either some long range Attack UCAVs aboard carriers or maybe some LCA with advanced capabilities for Carriers.

Having heavies especially on carriers can be extremely advantageous to one but when the opponent is having F-35Cs, J-15 is at a big disadvantage !!! Hence the need of either a fifth gen carrier borne fighter or LCA in numbers over a carrier with heavy EW warfare capabilities.

Back to the topic : SAC FC-31 Updates

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## LKJ86

StormBreaker said:


> China should also pursue either some long range Attack UCAVs aboard carriers or maybe some LCA with advanced capabilities for Carriers.
> 
> Having heavies especially on carriers can be extremely advantageous to one but when the opponent is having F-35Cs, J-15 is at a big disadvantage !!! Hence the need of either a fifth gen carrier borne fighter or LCA in numbers over a carrier with heavy EW warfare capabilities.


There is an interesting question:
As we know, PLAN always prefers heavyweight fighter jets, So would PLAN give up 5th-generation heavyweight carrier-based fighter jets?


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## vi-va

LKJ86 said:


> There is an interesting question:
> As we know, PLAN always prefers heavyweight fighter jets, So would PLAN give up 5th-generation heavyweight carrier-based fighter jets?


heavy weight is not suitable for carrier. The maintenance of heavy jut is harder, too crowded.


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## LKJ86

viva_zhao said:


> heavy weight is not suitable for carrier. The maintenance of heavy jut is harder, too crowded.


Many people have got used to believing that we should exactly do what USAF/USN have done, and missing what they really need.

"F-22 and F-35 don't have canards, so J-20 with canards is really bad"
"F-35B/C are mediumweight fighters, so carriers don't need heavyweight fighters any more"

When USN gets heavyweight fighters again, that would be funny.

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## StormBreaker

LKJ86 said:


> There is an interesting question:
> As we know, PLAN always prefers heavyweight fighter jets, So would PLAN give up heavyweight 5th-generation carrier-based fighter jets?


That “*ALWAYS*” you mentioned started with J-15 itself, so not much to support your statement some PLANAF is not something quite old enough yet.
But then, who knows, i am not disagreeing with you though


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## LKJ86

StormBreaker said:


> That “*ALWAYS*” you mentioned started with J-15 itself, so not much to support your statement some PLANAF is not something quite old enough yet.


So, do you know what PLAN have?


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## vi-va

LKJ86 said:


> Many people have got used to believing that we should exactly do what USAF/USN have done, and missing what they really need.
> 
> "F-22 and F-35 don't have canards, so J-20 with canards is really bad"
> "F-35B/C are mediumweight fighters, so carriers don't need heavyweight fighters any more"
> 
> When USN gets heavyweight fighters again, that would be funny.


My Chrome just crashed, this is a screenshot before it crashed. Otherwise I have to type again.


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## Beast

StormBreaker said:


> That “*ALWAYS*” you mentioned started with J-15 itself, so not much to support your statement some PLANAF is not something quite old enough yet.
> But then, who knows, i am not disagreeing with you though


China build Type-15 light tank and is operational and guess what..

https://www.armyrecognition.com/sep...or_mobile_protected_firepower_of_us_army.html

China build a 055 destroyer more powerful than Alreigh Burke class destroyer but different from USN Zumalt class. Guess what?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw3Si0N9lA-ZWTrHI0BVzW9Y&cshid=1583839189462

China successful deploy YJ-18 supersonic anti-ship missile and DF-17 hypersonic missile and guess what?

https://news.usni.org/2020/03/06/report-on-u-s-hypersonic-weapon-development


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## LKJ86

viva_zhao said:


> My Chrome just crashed, this is a screenshot before it crashed. Otherwise I have to type again.


If you prefer to consider how to protect the carriers themselves, why should PLAN need to have carriers? And land-based fighters would be enough to PLAN.


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## vi-va

LKJ86 said:


> If you prefer to consider how to protect the carriers themselves, why should PLAN need to have carriers? And land-based fighters would be enough to PLAN.


carrier is for power projection. I have concerns about how to protect the carrier, same reason. be rational guys.

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## Beast

viva_zhao said:


> carrier is for power projection. I have concerns about how to protect the carrier, same reason. be rational guys.



055 and 052D??

Are they build to 24hrs rd the clock to protect the CV from air defense , surface threat and underwater?


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## vi-va

viva_zhao said:


> My Chrome just crashed, this is a screenshot before it crashed. Otherwise I have to type again.


AWACS detect 4th generation jet(with weapon) in 300-400 km. AWACS detect jet in *70-150 km*, depends on angle of the jet.

Unlike land base radar network, naval radar network is very limited. *In stealthy era, AWACS detection range is not enough at all. Carrier air defense heavily depends on jet patrolling*, much more than 4th generation era. This is huge difference.

What is even worse, you need *2 jets patrolling in every directions*, so that 2 jet's electro-optical system manage a mini network for angle/distance measurement. 

In 4th generation era, AWACS is deployed forward. So that threat can be mitigated. In 5th generation era, it's not.

In 4th generation era, one jet can cover 1-2 directions. *In 5th generation era, you need 500 km air defense, 2 jets can cover 1 direction only*.

In 2000s, AAM is about 50-75km. Now it's 160 km. Future it will be longer and longer.

The stress of carrier air defense is much heavier than before. You need at least 2-3 times jets for CAP only, and CAP is 24*7.

Once you get into the details of real operation, you will know what China carrier need.


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## Beast

viva_zhao said:


> AWACS detect 4th generation jet(with weapon) in 300-400 km. AWACS detect jet in *70-150 km*, depends on angle of the jet.
> 
> Unlike land base radar network, naval radar network is very limited. *In stealthy era, AWACS detection range is not enough at all. Carrier air defense heavily depends on jet patrolling*, much more than 4th generation era. This is huge difference.
> 
> What is even worse, you need *2 jets patrolling in every directions*, so that 2 jet's electro-optical system manage a mini network for angle/distance measurement.
> 
> In 4th generation era, AWACS is deployed forward. So that threat can be mitigated. In 5th generation era, it's not.
> 
> In 4th generation era, one jet can cover 1-2 directions. *In 5th generation era, you need 500 km air defense, 2 jets can cover 1 direction only*.
> 
> In 2000s, AAM is about 50-75km. Now it's 160 km. Future it will be longer and longer.
> 
> The stress of carrier air defense is much heavier than before. You need at least 2-3 times jets for CAP only, and CAP is 24*7.
> 
> Once you get into the details of real operation, you will know what China carrier need.



Modern carrier fleet dont need aircraft to do round the patrol to protect it. They only take off when radar or AWACS sighted threat. Its no more WWII or Battle of Midway when Zero fighter need to stay in the air to provide air cover. I think you misunderstood the whole concept.

Most jet onboard carrier are used for offensive mission against surface and ground targets. Unless un ID target or threat approached.

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## vi-va

Beast said:


> 055 and 052D??
> 
> Are they build to 24hrs rd the clock to protect the CV from air defense , surface threat and underwater?


carrier is the most efficient tool for power project so far. destroyer main job is still defense.



Beast said:


> Modern carrier fleet dont need aircraft to do round the patrol to protect it. They only take off when radar or AWACS sighted threat. Its no more WWII or Battle of Midway when Zero fighter need to stay in the air to provide air cover. I think you misunderstood the whole concept.
> 
> Most jet onboard carrier are used for offensive mission against surface and ground targets.


Pardon me, do you have real military experience? I say what I knew. My major is 指挥自动化。


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## Beast

viva_zhao said:


> Pardon me, do you have real military experience? I say what I knew.



You are confusing yourself. Modern carrier fleet has no aircraft or fighter jet doing air patrol. Only AWACS carried out that task. That is what USN been doing all this while. They only take off to ID unidentify target or deal with threat. F-18 hornet or F-35 dont do 24hrs air patrol. I dont know what u are talking about...

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## vi-va

Beast said:


> You are confusing yourself. Modern carrier fleet has no aircraft or fighter jet doing air patrol. Only AWACS carried out that task. That is what USN been doing all this while. They only take off to ID unidentify target or deal with threat. F-18 hornet or F-35 dont do 24hrs air patrol. I dont know what u are talking about...


Not in 5th generation era. Time changed.


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## LKJ86

viva_zhao said:


> AWACS detect 4th generation jet(with weapon) in 300-400 km. AWACS detect jet in *70-150 km*, depends on angle of the jet.
> 
> Unlike land base radar network, naval radar network is very limited. *In stealthy era, AWACS detection range is not enough at all. Carrier air defense heavily depends on jet patrolling*, much more than 4th generation era. This is huge difference.
> 
> What is even worse, you need *2 jets patrolling in every directions*, so that 2 jet's electro-optical system manage a mini network for angle/distance measurement.
> 
> In 4th generation era, AWACS is deployed forward. So that threat can be mitigated. In 5th generation era, it's not.
> 
> In 4th generation era, one jet can cover 1-2 directions. *In 5th generation era, you need 500 km air defense, 2 jets can cover 1 direction only*.
> 
> In 2000s, AAM is about 50-75km. Now it's 160 km. Future it will be longer and longer.
> 
> The stress of carrier air defense is much heavier than before. You need at least 2-3 times jets for CAP only, and CAP is 24*7.
> 
> Once you get into the details of real operation, you will know what China carrier need.


PLAN should choose J-10 instead of J-15 from the beginning.

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## ziaulislam

Jamie Brooks said:


>


Ws 13 would be a welcome addition to jf17 & fc31 if the numbers circulating are true
A 14% increase in thrust is alot..


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## vi-va

LKJ86 said:


> PLAN should choose J-10 instead of J-15 from the beginning.


J15 is base on T-10K-3 in 2001, where is J-10 back then? J-10 and J-15 are two parallel projects. You should know PLAAF has not much confidence on J-10 until 1998. The investment on J-10 project is not much before 1999.

More importantly, 2 projects rely on J-10 team only is risky. Also politics play a role, you can't ingore Shenyang Aircraft Corporation and the 601 Institute, they need budget.


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## LKJ86

viva_zhao said:


> J15 is base on T-10K-3 in 2001, where is J-10 back then? J-10 and J-15 are two parallel projects. You should know PLAAF has not much confidence on J-10 until 1998. The investment on J-10 project is not much before 1999.
> 
> More importantly, 2 projects rely on J-10 team only is risky. Also politics play a role, you can't ingore Shenyang Aircraft Corporation and the 601 Institute, they need budget.


1. It doesn't contradict what I said.

2. What you think would be a good choice for bullying the weak, but meaningless to against USA.

3. China has developed ASBM, and USA also updates its long range AShMs. So, heavyweight fighters have been becoming more and more important.

4. I won't be surprised if PLAN develops two different 5th-generation carrier-based fighters.


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## vi-va

LKJ86 said:


> 1. It doesn't contradict what I said.
> 
> 2. What you think would be a good choice for bullying the weak, but meaningless to USA.
> 
> 3. China has developed ASBM, and USA also updates its long range AShMs. So, heavyweight fighters has been becoming more and more important.
> 
> 4. I won't be surprised if PLAN develops two different 5th-generation carrier-based fighters.


What's the benefit of heavy jet, long range? No, J-20 range will not be significant longer than J-35. Not long enough to compensate the disadvantage regarding carrier jet.

When we talk about confrontation with USA, long range bomber is the key for 21th century naval battle. Carrier is not as important as before. Carrier is more and more vulnerable anyway.


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## LKJ86

viva_zhao said:


> What's the benefit of heavy jet, long range? No, J-20 range will not be significant longer than J-35. Not long enough to compensate the disadvantage regarding carrier jet.


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## StormBreaker

Beast said:


> China build Type-15 light tank and is operational and guess what..
> 
> https://www.armyrecognition.com/sep...or_mobile_protected_firepower_of_us_army.html
> 
> China build a 055 destroyer more powerful than Alreigh Burke class destroyer but different from USN Zumalt class. Guess what?
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw3Si0N9lA-ZWTrHI0BVzW9Y&cshid=1583839189462
> 
> China successful deploy YJ-18 supersonic anti-ship missile and DF-17 hypersonic missile and guess what?
> 
> https://news.usni.org/2020/03/06/report-on-u-s-hypersonic-weapon-development


Bro,

You seriously need to rework your comprehension skills, lately, i have witnessed you getting into silly arguments and fights just because of misunderstanding the other party.

LKJ86 mentioned “PLAN loves Heavies and J-15 is an example, We might eventually see a fifth gen heavy as per their choice”

But, i just countered this with the fact that J-15 is the only heavy jet PLANAF ever had are J-15 for carriers and J-11 for Coastal bases. Apart from that, they also operate some J-10 and J-7, nothing more, so I don’t yet see the fact that PLAN “*LOVES HEAVIES*” since the currently inventory is already a mix of Heavy Medium and Light although heavies are in more numbers.

I also didn’t reject his idea that PLANAF seeks a Heavy Fifth Gen fighter (could be a J-20 Carrier borne derivative) since that has been rumored for quite some years now and CAC doesn’t disappoint its customers. But SAC has put a lot of hardwork into FC-31 and if AVIC assists them, they might launch something in the medium class that has far more advantages collectively than a heavy carrier borne fighter (such as accommodating space, Weight, Take Off length, Engine Capabilities, EW)

So kindly give a second and a third read before getting into arguments, i am advising you because i am a cool guy unlike many...

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## gambit

viva_zhao said:


> Carrier is more and more vulnerable anyway.


Since the end of WW II, the list of those who said that then crashed and burned grows long...I hope the PLA leadership thinks like you do.

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## vi-va

gambit said:


> Since the end of WW II, the list of those who said that then crashed and burned grows long...I hope the PLA leadership thinks like you do.


Those who rely on experience will fail. Everything has changed, US Navy knew it, China expert knew it. Time will prove who is right.

3 most important factors: hyper-sonic weapon, stealthy bomber, satellite constellation.

Anyway, it's off topic, I stop here.


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## gambit

viva_zhao said:


> Those who rely on experience will fail.


*THIS* is an epic fail.

Experience is the foundation of change. Without experience, one would not know what works and what does not. The combination of one's own experience and the experience of others is the best foundation for evolution.

What a moronic statement.

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## LKJ86

StormBreaker said:


> LKJ86 mentioned “PLAN loves Heavies and J-15 is an example, We might eventually see a fifth gen heavy as per their choice”
> 
> But, i just countered this with the fact that J-15 is the only heavy jet PLANAF ever had are J-15 for carriers and J-11 for Coastal bases. Apart from that, they also operate some J-10 and J-7, nothing more, so I don’t yet see the fact that PLAN “*LOVES HEAVIES*” since the currently inventory is already a mix of Heavy Medium and Light although heavies are in more numbers.


Do you know that JH-7 (close to 30 tons) is developed by PLAN independently?

Do you know how many J-10AH/J-10SH PLAN just has? Only about 24, while the whole number of J-10 is over 500 already.

And the backbone of PLAN is JH-7, JH-7A, J-11BH, J-11BSH, J-15, and Su-30MKK2.

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## kungfugymnast

viva_zhao said:


> What's the benefit of heavy jet, long range? No, J-20 range will not be significant longer than J-35. Not long enough to compensate the disadvantage regarding carrier jet.
> 
> When we talk about confrontation with USA, long range bomber is the key for 21th century naval battle. Carrier is not as important as before. Carrier is more and more vulnerable anyway.



Long range bomber is vulnerable especially not having stealth and speed could be easily taken out by enemy fighters. Best alternative would be large stealth fighter bomber that has long range, AESA frontal & rearward facing radar for attacking rear targets since it can't dogfight. Soviet Union once had the largest fighter Tu28/128 Fiddler over 90ft long. The new China stealth bomber could be made into heavy fighter bomber instead being able to reach Guam and pacific to engage US naval fleet and fighters. If it could carry dozens of long range PL15, it shouldn't be problem to take out dozens of F-18E/F.



viva_zhao said:


> What's the benefit of heavy jet, long range? No, J-20 range will not be significant longer than J-35. Not long enough to compensate the disadvantage regarding carrier jet.
> 
> When we talk about confrontation with USA, long range bomber is the key for 21th century naval battle. Carrier is not as important as before. Carrier is more and more vulnerable anyway.



Carrier is vital for fleet defense and long range operation as SAMs alone can't defend the fleet from cruise missiles and enemy fighters. Even US cruisers had problem taking out Iranian F-4E during gulf war where the numbers of SM2MR missiles launched at the F4s were spoofed and failed to hit. Fighters are needed to engage enemy fighters and bombers before they get into anti-ship missile effective range without requiring aircraft radar inertial guidance. 

J31 is required for PLAN in fleet defense and offensive operations. It would be better if J35 being enlarged to have larger fuel tank and powered by more powerful WS10B engined instead.


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## vi-va

kungfugymnast said:


> Long range bomber is vulnerable especially not having stealth and speed could be easily taken out by enemy fighters. Best alternative would be large stealth fighter bomber that has long range, AESA frontal & rearward facing radar for attacking rear targets since it can't dogfight. Soviet Union once had the largest fighter Tu28/128 Fiddler over 90ft long. The new China stealth bomber could be made into heavy fighter bomber instead being able to reach Guam and pacific to engage US naval fleet and fighters. If it could carry dozens of long range PL15, it shouldn't be problem to take out dozens of F-18E/F.
> 
> 
> 
> Carrier is vital for fleet defense and long range operation as SAMs alone can't defend the fleet from cruise missiles and enemy fighters. Even US cruisers had problem taking out Iranian F-4E during gulf war where the numbers of SM2MR missiles launched at the F4s were spoofed and failed to hit. Fighters are needed to engage enemy fighters and bombers before they get into anti-ship missile effective range without requiring aircraft radar inertial guidance.
> 
> J31 is required for PLAN in fleet defense and offensive operations. It would be better if J35 being enlarged to have larger fuel tank and powered by more powerful WS10B engined instead.


Nowadays, no one will design a unstealthy long range bomber.


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## kungfugymnast

viva_zhao said:


> Nowadays, no one will design a unstealthy long range bomber.



Yes, the new bomber plan will involve maneuverability, stealth and speed with ability to perform air to air combat for self defense taking out enemy fighters. Large bomber that is maneuverable now is the B1 believed to be capable of pulling up to 5G when others could only do 3G.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Just for fun ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1103717535050940416
> ... at first sight I thought it is the rumoured J-35 as a model!



Do you think they'll make the J35 as big as F22 powered by WS10B/C engines?


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## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> Do you think they'll make the J35 as big as F22 powered by WS10B/C engines?


If so, it can't get any orders from PLAAF, just like F-14 to USAF.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Do you think they'll make the J35 as big as F22 powered by WS10B/C engines?




No ... why then developing the WS-19?


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> No ... why then developing the WS-19?



WS19 for fuel economy J31. Ws10 for j35?



LKJ86 said:


> If so, it can't get any orders from PLAAF, just like F-14 to USAF.



J31 for PLAAF medium size stealth fighter. J35 for navy large fighter equivalent to F14 meant for fleet defense and high speed interceptor. J31 navalized version for PLAN for less payload interdiction mission direct challenger to F35.


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## StormBreaker

kungfugymnast said:


> WS19 for fuel economy J31. Ws10 for j35?
> 
> 
> 
> J31 for PLAAF medium size stealth fighter. J35 for navy large fighter equivalent to F14 meant for fleet defense and high speed interceptor. J31 navalized version for PLAN for less payload interdiction mission direct challenger to F35.


No one can give you a close speculative answer unless time tells us the fate of FC-31 and it’s relation with J-35 project.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> WS19 for fuel economy J31. Ws10 for j35?
> 
> J31 for PLAAF medium size stealth fighter. J35 for navy large fighter equivalent to F14 meant for fleet defense and high speed interceptor. J31 navalized version for PLAN for less payload interdiction mission direct challenger to F35.




Surely not ... there won't be two different types aka the regular J-31 (which simply does not exist!) and a larger upscaled J-35 with WS-10.

There will be - if these rumours are correct - only one type, namely a at best slightly enlarged, modified FC-31 powered by these WS-19s, which is then called J-35.


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## kungfugymnast

StormBreaker said:


> No one can give you a close speculative answer unless time tells us the fate of FC-31 and it’s relation with J-35 project.



J31 project will go on as it's the only new product from Shenyang team and its engine slots could be enlarged for WS10 engines in case WS19 gone bad as per military analysis. It is like economic version of J20 that could be built in large numbers and consumes less fuel to fly.



Deino said:


> Surely not ... there won't be two different types aka the regular J-31 (which simply does not exist!) and a larger upscaled J-35 with WS-10.
> 
> There will be - if these rumours are correct - only one type, namely a at best slightly enlarged, modified FC-31 powered by these WS-19s, which is then called J-35.



Guess fuel economy is more of a concern if J35 retains the size and engines in FC31. Since carrier is mobile, they don't need larger fighter with more powerful engines apart from saving space on deck.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> J31 project will go on as it's the only new product from Shenyang team and its engine slots could be enlarged for WS10 engines in case WS19 gone bad as per military analysis. It is like economic version of J20 that could be built in large numbers and consumes less fuel to fly.
> 
> ....




Pardon to contradict, but the J-31 does not exist. Period.

And even the FC-31 will from all we know NOT proceed, it evolved into the J-35 if these rumours are correct and even less its engines slots could be enlarged to hold the WS-10. That is as ridiculous as to think, the JF-17 could be enlarged to hold a WS-10. 

And by the way, we already too far off topic.

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## StormBreaker

kungfugymnast said:


> J31 project will go on as it's the only new product from Shenyang team and its engine slots could be enlarged for WS10 engines in case WS19 gone bad as per military analysis. It is like economic version of J20 that could be built in large numbers and consumes less fuel to fly.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess fuel economy is more of a concern if J35 retains the size and engines in FC31. Since carrier is mobile, they don't need larger fighter with more powerful engines apart from saving space on deck.


I sincerely don’t proceed in these debates where people don’t research properly before talking, why the hell would an airframe built according to a engine of WS-13 class be used with WS-10 class engine by “juSt ENlaRgiNg inTaKEs”

No offense but aeronautics doesn’t work like that...

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## Silicon0000

Deino said:


> Pardon to contradict, but the J-31 does not exist. Period.
> 
> And even the FC-31 will from all we know NOT proceed, it evolved into the J-35 if these rumours are correct and even less its engines slots could be enlarged to hold the WS-10. That is as ridiculous as to think, the JF-17 could be enlarged to hold a WS-10.
> 
> And by the way, we already too far off topic.



Some fanboy is having it's own fantasy and you are getting serious


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Pardon to contradict, but the J-31 does not exist. Period.
> 
> And even the FC-31 will from all we know NOT proceed, it evolved into the J-35 if these rumours are correct and even less its engines slots could be enlarged to hold the WS-10. That is as ridiculous as to think, the JF-17 could be enlarged to hold a WS-10.
> 
> And by the way, we already too far off topic.



JF17 is small fighter already in production stage. FC31 is still in prototype, it's Shenyang precious project now for its honor as own original made rather than replica fighter. Changes could still be made as long as it has yet to enter mass production. You may take Boeing X32 project for example, they wanted to make last minute redesign after all the testing done on the X32 prototype found out disadvantage of being too small at 45 feet long without separate elevator at the aft. Unfortunate for them, it was too close to dateline and the congress picked the larger Lockheed X35 for JSF.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> JF17 is small fighter already in production stage. FC31 is still in prototype, it's Shenyang precious project now for its honor as own original made rather than replica fighter. Changes could still be made as long as it has yet to enter mass production. You may take Boeing X32 project for example, they wanted to make last minute redesign after all the testing done on the X32 prototype found out disadvantage of being too small at 45 feet long without separate elevator at the aft. Unfortunate for them, it was too close to dateline and the congress picked the larger Lockheed X35 for JSF.




But honestly, You don't integrate such a dramatic change that late in a program and changing the engine would be de facto a new aircraft. As such the proposed changes from X-32 to F-32 are off. Also, you don't develop a new medium thrust engine and the develop in parallel an XL-variant of the same type. That was never done, contradicts all reports I know and would also be beyond AVIC/SAC's resources.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> But honestly, You don't integrate such a dramatic change that late in a program and changing the engine would be de facto a new aircraft. As such the proposed changes from X-32 to F-32 are off. Also, you don't develop a new medium thrust engine and the develop in parallel an XL-variant of the same type. That was never done, contradicts all reports I know and would also be beyond AVIC/SAC's resources.



Changes can still be made as the cost is still bearable. Only not bearable when assembly plant started and lots of parts manufactured would go to waste. What do you personally think on the FC31? Should it stay as F35 competitor having speed of mach 1.8 with center internal bay only carrying 4 air to air or 2x air to air & 2x air to ground? 

Or enlarged to over 60ft fitted with WS10B/C engines that would reduce maintenance cost since parts can be shared with J10/11/15/16, acceleration and speed increased, internal bay added 2x side for IR guided PL10, then center bay could focus fully on air to ground, air to air or mixed? TVC is available since ws10 engines are always being improved over time to complement the flankers and j10.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Changes can still be made as the cost is still bearable. Only not bearable when assembly plant started and lots of parts manufactured would go to waste. What do you personally think on the FC31? Should it stay as F35 competitor having speed of mach 1.8 with center internal bay only carrying 4 air to air or 2x air to air & 2x air to ground?
> 
> Or enlarged to over 60ft fitted with WS10B/C engines that would reduce maintenance cost since parts can be shared with J10/11/15/16, acceleration and speed increased, internal bay added 2x side for IR guided PL10, then center bay could focus fully on air to ground, air to air or mixed? TVC is available since ws10 engines are always being improved over time to complement the flankers and j10.




I think this discussion is as moot as the discussion on whether the JF-17 should be enlarged to fit a WS-10: As it seems, the PLAN has made a decision to use more or less a similar sized variant, powered by the WS-19 and eventually called J-35. As such, everything else concerning your question was probably relevant several years ago, but no longer now.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> I think this discussion is as moot as the discussion on whether the JF-17 should be enlarged to fit a WS-10: As it seems, the PLAN has made a decision to use more or less a similar sized variant, powered by the WS-19 and eventually called J-35. As such, everything else concerning your question was probably relevant several years ago, but no longer now.



With advances in anti-ship missiles technology having greater effective range and speed lately, there has been debate on US carrier fighters effective range & combat radius arose. F35C has the combat radius but slow while F/A18E/F poor aerodynamic giving it poor range and the plan for CFT is in consideration. Now they are thinking of coming up with high speed large long range fighters to deal with rising threat from China & Russia. They expect to reduce numbers of fighters on the deck.

So for PLAN, do you think it is practical to have the J35 enlarged in order to have the speed, range and payload for fleet defense and offensive roles? With introduction of EMALS later, the J15 would be able to carry more fuel and easily launch from carriers extending the combat radius.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> ...
> So for PLAN, do you think it is practical to have the J35 enlarged in order to have the speed, range and payload for fleet defense and offensive roles? With introduction of EMALS later, the J15 would be able to carry more fuel and easily launch from carriers extending the combat radius.




No offence ... go and tell this to the PLAN, but at least from what I read, the decision was made against such an enlarged WS-10-powered type.


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## Beethoven

Deino said:


> No offence ... go and tell this to the PLAN, but at least from what I read, the decision was made against such an enlarged WS-10-powered type.


Any updates on the WS19???? What is its current status???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> I think this discussion is as moot as the discussion on whether the JF-17 should be enlarged to fit a WS-10: As it seems, the PLAN has made a decision to use more or less a similar sized variant, powered by the WS-19 and eventually called J-35. As such, everything else concerning your question was probably relevant several years ago, but no longer now.


I guess FC-31 would basically end up as the tech demonstrator that leads to the J-35, but the J-35 (if it materializes) will be a very different fighter?

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## ZeEa5KPul

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I guess FC-31 would basically end up as the tech demonstrator that leads to the J-35, but the J-35 (if it materializes) will be a very different fighter?


Better to consider it as a step along the development pathway. The FC-31 was an inadequate attempt to make a stealth fighter (understandable since SAC lost the Chinese 4th gen competition to CAC), but it still taught SAC a lot. CAC has been brought in to help SAC on the J-XY, and it's likely that a lot of the work done on the FC-31 will be transferable to that.



Beethoven said:


> Any updates on the WS19???? What is its current status???


We know very little about the current status of the WS-15/WS-19. Both seem to be in advanced testing and should be production-ready by around 2025.


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## Deino

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I guess FC-31 would basically end up as the tech demonstrator that leads to the J-35, but the J-35 (if it materializes) will be a very different fighter?




Actually I don't think so or at least it has to be seen if the changes from FC-31 to J-35 are comparably huge as from the X-35 to the final F-35. I won't be surprised when they are minor and more an evolutional design from the FC-31V2.

But again, that remains to be seen. 



ZeEa5KPul said:


> Better to consider it as a step along the development pathway. The FC-31 was an inadequate attempt to make a stealth fighter (understandable since SAC lost the Chinese 4th gen competition to CAC), but it still taught SAC a lot. CAC has been brought in to help SAC on the J-XY, and it's likely that a lot of the work done on the FC-31 will be transferable to that.




That too is not clear especially since the FC-31 was not the contender for the PLAAF's heavy stealth fighter, that was indeed won by CAC. In my understanding, SAC's contender - that large tri-plane type - was indeed a failure with no chance against CAC's J-20, but SAC learned a lot and developed with the FC-31 a type, taht could become what the F-35 could have been if it was not meant to be a beast for all services and all missions.

Anyway, that all depends on the engine. 




Beethoven said:


> Any updates on the WS19???? What is its current status???



Unfortunately not to my knowledge. Maybe @LKJ86 knows more.

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## kungfugymnast

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I guess FC-31 would basically end up as the tech demonstrator that leads to the J-35, but the J-35 (if it materializes) will be a very different fighter?



Foreign military experts said most likely the J31, FC31 or J35 will be enlarged by SAC to fit the already proven WS10 engines that could share common parts with existing J10, J11, J15, J16. Due to large border and requirements for fast long range fighter bomber by PLAN carrier fleet, most likely SAC will enlarge the J35 fitted with WS10 giving it more power and speed as answer to its air force counterpart J20.



Beethoven said:


> Any updates on the WS19???? What is its current status???



Will be put on hold if J35 is to be enlarged to fit WS10 engines. WS19 engine development will resume after J35 won the project and with funding from J35 sales. WS19 engines will be perfected and new medium twin engine fighter will be designed later.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Foreign military experts said most likely the J31, FC31 or J35 will be enlarged by SAC to fit the already proven WS10 engines that could share common parts with existing J10, J11, J15, J16. Due to large border and requirements for fast long range fighter bomber by PLAN carrier fleet, most likely SAC will enlarge the J35 fitted with WS10 giving it more power and speed as answer to its air force counterpart J20.
> 
> Will be put on hold if J35 is to be enlarged to fit WS10 engines. WS19 engine development will resume after J35 won the project and with funding from J35 sales. WS19 engines will be perfected and new medium twin engine fighter will be designed later.




Pardon to contradict: *NONE *Foreign military expert says so! I really cannot understand why you are still claiming this?!

As I said so often - or as we say in Germany - this decision has been made most likely long ago. ("Dieser Zug ist längst abgefahren"  ) ... it will use the WS-19.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Pardon to contradict: *NONE *Foreign military expert says so! I really cannot understand why you are still claiming this?!
> 
> As I said so often - or as we say in Germany - this decision has been made most likely long ago. ("Dieser Zug ist längst abgefahren"  ) ... it will use the WS-19.



Danke. English speaking analyst & China folks said so based on feasibility and practicality factors. SAC is losing this project if they come up with navalized fighter with such short range and less payload that loses multirole capability.

That left SAC only option is to enlarge the J35 to fit WS10, bigger internal fuel tank, add 2 sidebay for IR guided air to air missiles to impress the ministry of defense and PLAN commanders.

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Danke. English speaking analyst & China folks said so based on feasibility and practicality factors. SAC is losing this project if they come up with navalized fighter with such short range and less payload that loses multirole capability.
> 
> That left SAC only option is to enlarge the J35 to fit WS10, bigger internal fuel tank, add 2 sidebay for IR guided air to air missiles to impress the ministry of defense and PLAN commanders.



Hmm ... I know several "English speaking analysts" but none of them - at least none who is rated reliable - suggests this. May you mention a few names?

Thanks in advance,
Deino


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Hmm ... I know several "English speaking analysts" but none of them - at least none who is rated reliable - suggests this. May you mention a few names?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Deino



Just random military fans and writers that I came across from chat groups. The navalized enlarged stealth fighter will be likely named as different aircraft at the end.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Just random military fans and writers that I came across from chat groups. The navalized enlarged stealth fighter will be likely named as different aircraft at the end.




Pardon, but there is a difference to equal several "English speaking analysts" with "just random military fans and writers". At least to my knowledge NO TRUE "English speaking analyst" claims this, and therefore we shall put it to rest until we get new images of the alleged J-35.

Anyway, I would bet nearly anything, that it won't be WS-10-powered.


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Anyway, I would bet nearly anything, that it won't be WS-10-powered.


Maybe he just has forgotten J-20, and if PLAN needs, there would be a carrier-based version of J-20.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe he just has forgotten J-20, and if PLAN needs, there would be a carrier-based version of J-20.




maybe, but given the latest info, how likely is it that there will be also a navalised J-20 powered by WS-10? IMO there is none.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Pardon, but there is a difference to equal several "English speaking analysts" with "just random military fans and writers". At least to my knowledge NO TRUE "English speaking analyst" claims this, and therefore we shall put it to rest until we get new images of the alleged J-35.
> 
> Anyway, I would bet nearly anything, that it won't be WS-10-powered.



I left out the military magazines writeup experts. In fact there are from them. The answer is definitely question mark as the future navalized stealth fighter depends on whether there will be rail launch on carrier. If there's EMALS, then having large stealth fighter is feasible. Short combat radius would limit the role to just fleet defense operating within 200 Nm radius.



LKJ86 said:


> Maybe he just has forgotten J-20, and if PLAN needs, there would be a carrier-based version of J-20.



J20 wings aren't suitable for carrier based. Check F18E/F wings that are less swept for low speed stability and maneuverability when loaded especially. The F18 with fixed wing have to sacrifice aerodynamic and ferry range just for this reason. 

Rather than total redesign the J20, it is easier to enlarge FC31 instead giving it larger wing area would improve lift and stability at low speed as well. The FC31 navalized version could easily take design cue from F35C and F22 since the layout similar help shortens the R&D time.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> I left out the military magazines writeup experts. In fact there are from them. The answer is definitely question mark as the future navalized stealth fighter depends on whether there will be rail launch on carrier. If there's EMALS, then having large stealth fighter is feasible. Short combat radius would limit the role to just fleet defense operating within 200 Nm radius.



Pardon to step in again: As I already said so often. It is irrelevant to further discuss. The PLAN has already decided and against this option. Also I think it is safe to assume, the EMALS discussion is over too and also moot. The USN launched large and heavy bombers like the A-3, A-5 and others for decades with regular steam-catapults, so the question what launch system is irrelevant to the size of an aircraft. It all depends on what the PLAN wants ... and seems they want a medium-weight - even if a fighter in the calls of a F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is no longer a medium call type - fighter.

Again, I think we shall stop this useless discussion on what might eventually be better. The PLAN has spoken. 



> J20 wings aren't suitable for carrier based. Check F18E/F wings that are less swept for low speed stability and maneuverability when loaded especially. The F18 with fixed wing have to sacrifice aerodynamic and ferry range just for this reason.
> 
> Rather than total redesign the J20, it is easier to enlarge FC31 instead giving it larger wing area would improve lift and stability at low speed as well. The FC31 navalized version could easily take design cue from F35C and F22 since the layout similar help shortens the R&D time.



Here you are wrong too, just look at the Rafale and also it si a common mistake why some still think "simply enlarging an airplane's design" to add larger, bigger wider or whatever engines in is wrong, even plain naive. It does not work.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Pardon to step in again: As I already said so often. It is irrelevant to further discuss. The PLAN has already decided and against this option. Also I think it is safe to assume, the EMALS discussion is over too and also moot. The USN launched large and heavy bombers like the A-3, A-5 and others for decades with regular steam-catapults, so the question what launch system is irrelevant to the size of an aircraft. It all depends on what the PLAN wants ... and seems they want a medium-weight - even if a fighter in the calls of a F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is no longer a medium call type - fighter.
> 
> Again, I think we shall stop this useless discussion on what might eventually be better. The PLAN has spoken.
> 
> 
> 
> Here you are wrong too, just look at the Rafale and also it si a common mistake why some still think "simply enlarging an airplane's design" to add larger, bigger wider or whatever engines in is wrong, even plain naive. It does not work.



Whether catapult steam or EMALS, both are good enough to launch large aircraft from carriers. PLAN having catapult launch on their carriers would help much in getting J15 up in the air on full payload. 

F/A-18C/D are medium fighters while enlarged F/A-18E/F are large fighters. Can see the huge improvement and advantages on the enlarged hornets. Large powerful, radar, more combat radius, more missiles & bombs able to take up more roles. 

French aren't going to face world #1 military US therefore their rafale M design criteria is only up to taking on weaker countries military. If you notice, its delta wing angle more forward (less swept backward) compared to EF2000 for better low speed stability and maneuverability sacrificing top speed in drag-lift preference. 

China naval fighters at the other hand expect toughest enemy such as US should war happens. Therefore speed, combat radius and multirole capabilities are main concern. Naval fleet defender role is to engage and destroy threats beyond 200Nm before they get into anti-ship missile effective range. E-2C/D AWACS support range 200/250Nm, E-3C support range 300Nm. China expects outnumbered scenario so they'll need navalized stealth fighters that are independent rather than dependant like F35C. F35C in air to air role will turn back and flee after launching all 4 AMRAAMs. In case of being pursued, F/A-18E/F nearby will assist by engaging enemy fighters on pursuit. This means F35C will always require air cover from F/A-18E/F as they are high asset value aircraft.


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## waja2000

Deino said:


> Here you are wrong too, just look at the Rafale and also it si a common mistake why some still think "simply enlarging an airplane's design" to add larger, bigger wider or whatever engines in is wrong, even plain naive. It does not work.



Due to French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle shot take off runway (well know design issue) , limit size of Rafale and can't be enlarge. and france experiance in delta Wing fighter in pass, rafale continue follow this design.
Although F/A-18 EF look same to CD , but both only 15%~20% share parts, almost can consider F/A-18 EF new plane.


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## kungfugymnast

waja2000 said:


> Due to French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle shot take off runway (well know design issue) , limit size of Rafale and can't be enlarge. and france experiance in delta Wing fighter in pass, rafale continue follow this design.
> Although F/A-18 EF look same to CD , but both only 15%~20% share parts, almost can consider F/A-18 EF new plane.



French naval fighters aren't made to fight US, they'll stay as medium fighters providing air strikes or combat air patrol. At time of war, French will stay as peacekeeper taking on enemies with small to moderate military with US by their sides.

French Rafale customers are countries such as middle east, India that would limited to unfriendly neighbors conflict at most up against fighters and ground targets. They don't expect any scenario where they have to fight US having to intercept US bombers and fighters before they launch long range cruise missiles at their naval fleet, supplies, bases.


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## Deino

*Can we please leave out politics and simply stick to the topic!*


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## LKJ86

Interesting...

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 623488
> 
> Interesting...




Would you please be so kind and provide a translation or at least English summary!?

Best and take care.

Based on what I can understand:



> A user at military forum super base camp saw the first FC-31 3.0/ J-35, and the prototype was about to undergo its first flight test.

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## aziqbal

So what V3.0 has flown? 

naval ?


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## Deino

aziqbal said:


> So what V3.0 has flown?
> 
> naval ?



I think, and please don't take is as an offence, but this is exactly how rumours explode! 

There is so far only a post "a prototype has been seen" ... followed up by "where and who posted this" ... and after only two posts this "rumoured prototype has already flown"!

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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 623488
> 
> Interesting...


bro always post translation for other, btw what was interesting .....???


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## Akasa

HRK said:


> bro always post translation for other, btw what was interesting .....???



An eyewitness supposedly saw the J-35 prototype and said that it's about to undergo test flight.

As with COVID-19 numbers coming from China, take these rumors with a bucket of salt.

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## Deino

Here's an interesting PS to that new fighter:







via: https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2619855-1-1.html

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## Deino

Hmmm ... real or not! via angadow ... or again only a PS-job!?

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## Maxpane

Deino said:


> Hmmm ... real or not! via angadow ... or again only a PS-job!?


i cant see the picture .


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## Deino

Maxpane said:


> i cant see the picture .




Still not? I edited my post?



And here's something from our old friend "yankeesama" ... but I don't understand?!


https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2619997-1-1.html


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## Maxpane

Deino said:


> Still not? I edited my post?
> 
> 
> 
> And here's something from our old friend "yankeesama" ... but I don't understand?!
> 
> 
> https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2619997-1-1.html


thanks a lot sir . now its visible.


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## Deino

Deino said:


> Hmmm ... real or not! via angadow ... or again only a PS-job!?
> 
> View attachment 623735




Via @siegecrossbow 



> He said that this is for demonstration purposes only, meaning that it isn’t authentic.


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## sheik

Deino said:


> Hmmm ... real or not! via angadow ... or again only a PS-job!?
> 
> View attachment 623735



Some rumor said it would be 35001...


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## Jamie Brooks

Deino said:


> Would you please be so kind and provide a translation or at least English summary!?
> 
> 
> Based on what I can understand:





Deino said:


> Would you please be so kind and provide a translation or at least English summary!?
> 
> Best and take care.
> 
> Based on what I can understand:



[Rough translation: its time for it to come.TSQ made a bet. i have seen it with my own eyes(don’t know who referring to) . The number is being kept hidden for the time being , waiting for the big guy to disclose ( again don’t know who he is referring to). Of course it is alot later then expected but we need to understand the situation. After all the plan never changes fast. Everyone has to admit its time for it to come. Even when its late its here.

PS: (some unnecessary stuff about himself and his post) . Its about the 2.0 picture. I believe everyone saw the real pics of 2.0 . Don’t want to explain more, yes we saw it early at the terminal long time ago. The latest situation now is not the same , we should better wait for big guy(?) to reveal it. (Referring to 3.0 ?)]

My chinese is really bad so if someone has better translation please post.



Jamie Brooks said:


> [Rough translation: its time for it to come.TSQ made a bet. i have seen it with my own eyes(don’t know who referring to) . The number is being kept hidden for the time being , waiting for the big guy to disclose ( again don’t know who he is referring to). Of course it is alot later then expected but we need to understand the situation. After all the plan never changes fast. Everyone has to admit its time for it to come. Even when its late its here.
> 
> PS: (some unnecessary stuff about himself and his post) . Its about the 2.0 picture. I believe everyone saw the real pics of 2.0 . Don’t want to explain more, yes we saw it early at the terminal long time ago. The latest situation now is not the same , we should better wait for big guy(?) to reveal it. (Referring to 3.0 ?)]
> 
> My chinese is really bad so if someone has better translation please post.


Don’t misunderstand this part from google or baidu translate
毕竟计划永远没有变化快 : After all the plan never changes fast . (Not referring to PLAN or PLA navy but actual plan) as PLAN is 中国人民解放军海军 .
Also don’t know (大佬) who this big guy / powerful man he is referring to.



HRK said:


> bro always post translation for other, btw what was interesting .....???


^

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## kungfugymnast

aziqbal said:


> So what V3.0 has flown?
> 
> naval ?



FC-31 land based testing resumes with go ahead project on a rush for Iranian Air Force.



Deino said:


> I think, and please don't take is as an offence, but this is exactly how rumours explode!
> 
> There is so far only a post "a prototype has been seen" ... followed up by "where and who posted this" ... and after only two posts this "rumoured prototype has already flown"!



It's not the J-35 that you're hoping for. It's FC-31 land based air force variant for export to close allies only. Iran would keep this plane secret as they will be facing threat from US this year. You might say I'm lying but rather than deleting my post, you could just wait and see for yourself later


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> FC-31 land based testing resumes with go ahead project on a rush for Iranian Air Force.




*Honestly, I have enough .... it is one thing to ask stupid questions, but another to deliberately derail several threads with off-topic discussions and even more to troll with unproven even more ridiculous things. There is NO "a rush for Iranian Air Force".

STOP this and take this as a warning. *

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> *Honestly, I have enough .... it is one thing to ask stupid questions, but another to deliberately derail several threads with off-topic discussions and even more to troll with unproven even more ridiculous things. There is NO "a rush for Iranian Air Force".
> 
> STOP this and take this as a warning. *



Why not we bet. If this is really land based FC-31 and Iran is somewhat related by year end, what are you going to say? You kept giving warning to ban me twice for comments related to topics. Your J-35 seems more irrelevant instead because Shenyang didn't mention officially compared to FC-31 and for export to close ally.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Why not we bet. If this is really land based FC-31 and Iran is somewhat related by year end, what are you going to say? You kept giving warning to ban me twice for comments related to topics. Your J-35 seems more irrelevant instead because Shenyang didn't mention officially compared to FC-31 and for export to close ally.




Ok, let's make a bet: I officially resign as a moderator if until year's end anything meaningful from an official respectable site has been confirmed in terms of a FC-31-deal to Iran. In return you stop posting BS and unsubstantial rumours for the given time, refrain from derailing threads with constant off-topic discussions.

And yes, otherwise I'll ban you in the same way I banned this other idiot for constantly proposing the J-20 is using a +240kN thrust serial WS-15 from day one.

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## Akasa

sheik said:


> Some rumor said it would be 35001...



Which rumors?


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## Dazzler



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## Akasa

Finally, photos of the repainted 2.0:










The question is: could've the eyewitness who supposedly saw the J-35 prototype have mistaken this to be the J-35 instead? How old is this set of photographs?



Dazzler said:


>



Dammit man!


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## LKJ86

Akasa said:


> The question is: could've the eyewitness who supposedly saw the J-35 prototype have mistaken this to be the J-35 instead?


Of course not.


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> Of course not.



So there might indeed be the actual J-35 prototype somewhere?


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## LKJ86

Akasa said:


> So there might indeed be the actual J-35 prototype somewhere?


I don't think you can read Chinese


LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 623488
> 
> Interesting...


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Of course not.




I would be happy... so it is just a coincidence?


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> I don't think you can read Chinese



I know the premise. A CJDBY user posts that he supposedly saw the prototype of the J-XY/J-35. However, unless the above photos are old, there is always the possibility that he might've seen the repainted FC-31 and assumed (erroneously) that they were the new J-35.

Are you implying that he couldn't have made the mistake and that there is indeed the possibility that the J-35 prototype exists?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> I would be happy... so it is just a coincidence?





Akasa said:


> Are you implying that he couldn't have made the mistake and that there is indeed the possibility that the J-35 prototype exists?


No one translates this part:


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## Ali_Baba

The JC-31 is a programme going nowhere fast.. simply dont see the point. No one wants it at all right now.. they should put it out of its misery and terminate it now..


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## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> No one translates this part:
> View attachment 624643


Please translate sir


Ali_Baba said:


> The JC-31 is a programme going nowhere fast.. simply dont see the point. No one wants it at all right now.. they should put it out of its misery and terminate it now..


PLAAN want stealth jet for their carriers, Hence they are developing J-35 based on FC-31 technology


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> No one translates this part:
> View attachment 624643



Therefore would you be so kind and do a summarised translation please?


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## LKJ86

Ali_Baba said:


> The JC-31 is a programme going nowhere fast.. simply dont see the point. No one wants it at all right now.. they should put it out of its misery and terminate it now..


Just relax, and I don't think Pakistan would involve in the project of PLAAF and PLAN.


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## Deino

Ali_Baba said:


> The JC-31 is a programme going nowhere fast.. simply dont see the point. No one wants it at all right now.. they should put it out of its misery and terminate it now..




Care to explain why? It is a good design, it could be a decent basis of a capable carrier-borne fighter, it could complement the heavier and much more expensive J-20 also for the PLAAF and most of all it would be the sole fighter project for SAC after the Flankers.

Or is there a technical reason, why they should terminate it ... and what would you propose as an alternative?

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## IblinI

Deino said:


> Therefore would you be so kind and do a summarised translation please?


He said he is unable to given out more info on the new jet (Navy varaient,which mean there is already one).

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Therefore would you be so kind and do a summarised translation please?


He had seen the repainted V2 much earlier, and there was no surprise.
And the new one would be kept secret temporarily.

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## Deino

Jinri said:


> He said he is unable to given out more info on the new jet (Navy varaient,which mean there is already one).





LKJ86 said:


> He had seen the repainted V2 much earlier, and there was no surprise.
> And the new one would be kept secret temporarily.



And my your own estimation, when do you think will we get a first glimpse of the new fighter? ... in months, a year, at Zhuhai ... when it will perform its maiden flight?


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## Deino

JSCh said:


>




Nice, but already posted twice the page before

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## Ultima Thule

JSCh said:


>


How many times you guys post same picture (already posted in previous page)


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## JSCh

Deino said:


> Nice, but already posted twice the page before





seven0seven said:


> How many times you guys post same picture (already posted in previous page)


Oops !! I will delete it.

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## Deino

JSCh said:


> Oops !! I will delete it.



No problem ...


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## LKJ86

Via @钢铁机机 from Weibo

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## Jamie Brooks

Deino said:


> Therefore would you be so kind and do a summarised translation please?






This is direct baidu translation.

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## Akasa

Jamie Brooks said:


> View attachment 624848
> This is direct baidu translation.



So, which black guy did TSQ make a bet with?


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## IblinI

Guys, found a gem thread started by PB in 2018 talking about the navy's new stealth fighter and he answered many other related questions, for those who is interested.
https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2461769&authorid=773116&page=3

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## Deino

Akasa said:


> So, which black guy did TSQ make a bet with?




Via SDF posted by 



siegecrossbow said:


> He basically stated that a CJDBY member named TSQ had a bet with another member several years back that he would abstain from the from if the carrier based fighter isn’t a variation of the FC-31. Now he is saying that TSQ should come back because he, a wall climber in Shenyang, has seen the physical aircraft first hand.


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## vi-va

Deino said:


> Ok, let's make a bet: I officially resign as a moderator if until year's end anything meaningful from an official respectable site has been confirmed in terms of a FC-31-deal to Iran. In return you stop posting BS and unsubstantial rumours for the given time, refrain from derailing threads with constant off-topic discussions.
> 
> And yes, otherwise I'll ban you in the same way I banned this other idiot for constantly proposing the J-20 is using a +240kN thrust serial WS-15 from day one.


@Deino , you are safe. LMAO.

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## Deino

viva_zhao said:


> @Deino , you are safe. LMAO.




Thanks ... I I would do the same bet for the TFX

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Ok, let's make a bet: I officially resign as a moderator if until year's end anything meaningful from an official respectable site has been confirmed in terms of a FC-31-deal to Iran. In return you stop posting BS and unsubstantial rumours for the given time, refrain from derailing threads with constant off-topic discussions.
> 
> And yes, otherwise I'll ban you in the same way I banned this other idiot for constantly proposing the J-20 is using a +240kN thrust serial WS-15 from day one.



Sure but if I win, I want you to stop banning people from posting things that are relevant example carrier topic and fighters that will be based there are still somewhat related. I was suspended just for asking you a question being struck off as violation


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## serenity

J-35 will be for PLAN air force division. No chance for export anywhere not even to Pakistan really. How much can factory build you guys think? From first product to delivering 20 per year in how long? Not enough for PLAN and export to Iran certainly. Iran does not require such expensive weapon and no way USA will attack Iran. They will not be able to win easily there in the mountains and such a large country. Much more weapons than people realize.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Sure but if I win, I want you to stop banning people from posting things that are relevant example carrier topic and fighters that will be based there are still somewhat related. I was suspended just for asking you a question being struck off as violation




Yes I will ... as promised, I will resign as a moderator if Iran gets this bird and NO, you were not banned for asking a question but for again and again posting unsubstantial claims and really stupid off-topic ideas in different threads after several warnings.

Anyway, welcome back

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## kungfugymnast

serenity said:


> J-35 will be for PLAN air force division. No chance for export anywhere not even to Pakistan really. How much can factory build you guys think? From first product to delivering 20 per year in how long? Not enough for PLAN and export to Iran certainly. Iran does not require such expensive weapon and no way USA will attack Iran. They will not be able to win easily there in the mountains and such a large country. Much more weapons than people realize.



J-35 is likely to be different aircraft navalized stealth fighter reserved for PLAN due to China's requirements for combat radius to counter US F/A-18E and F-35C.

FC-31 is likely for export market to China close ally that is enemy of US such as Iran. If US sent in their F-35C and Iran send in conventional fighters will be disadvantage of having to perform evasive maneuver a lot at higher risk of being shit down. Imagine 2 AMRAAMs at a time. Since F-35C carries all 4x AMRAAM, Iran with FC-31 could carry 2x PL-10 & 2x PL12 and the F-35C might not be able to track the FC-31 above 10 miles forcing it to go visual range engagement. Both might go into dogfight if stealth only failed at less than 5 miles..


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## serenity

kungfugymnast said:


> J-35 is likely to be different aircraft navalized stealth fighter reserved for PLAN due to China's requirements for combat radius to counter US F/A-18E and F-35C.
> 
> FC-31 is likely for export market to China close ally that is enemy of US such as Iran. If US sent in their F-35C and Iran send in conventional fighters will be disadvantage of having to perform evasive maneuver a lot at higher risk of being shit down. Imagine 2 AMRAAMs at a time. Since F-35C carries all 4x AMRAAM, Iran with FC-31 could carry 2x PL-10 & 2x PL12 and the F-35C might not be able to track the FC-31 above 10 miles forcing it to go visual range engagement. Both might go into dogfight if stealth only failed at less than 5 miles..



Really we will not see USA try to do something against Iran anymore. They cannot afford the money and will lose so many lives no president can afford. More possible for USA to have a war with China. We need J-35 much quicker and more J-35 we cannot afford to export even if it can make a lot of money.

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> J-35 is likely to be different aircraft navalized stealth fighter reserved for PLAN due to China's requirements for combat radius to counter US F/A-18E and F-35C.
> 
> FC-31 is likely for export market to China close ally that is enemy of US such as Iran. If US sent in their F-35C and Iran send in conventional fighters will be disadvantage of having to perform evasive maneuver a lot at higher risk of being shit down. Imagine 2 AMRAAMs at a time. Since F-35C carries all 4x AMRAAM, Iran with FC-31 could carry 2x PL-10 & 2x PL12 and the F-35C might not be able to track the FC-31 above 10 miles forcing it to go visual range engagement. Both might go into dogfight if stealth only failed at less than 5 miles..




*Stop with this off topic BS or face just the next vacation. *

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## kungfugymnast

serenity said:


> Really we will not see USA try to do something against Iran anymore. They cannot afford the money and will lose so many lives no president can afford. More possible for USA to have a war with China. We need J-35 much quicker and more J-35 we cannot afford to export even if it can make a lot of money.



You heard @Deino no politics.

Maybe FC-31 vs F-35C in air combat still relevant. PLAAF might build more J-20 rather than source for FC-31 for its inventory. With recent heightened tension, j-20 is higher priority for its range to take on enemy fighters and ships before they enter missiles effective range. With electronic warfare where both sides deploy ECM, all missiles and radar effective range reduced as in Iraq Desert Storm, all air to air engagement took place below 30 miles. 

New optronic sensor nowadays, the best from US FLIR sniper pod claimed it could designate target 20 miles away including air targets such as UFO. US doesn't have long range IR guided missiles. For FC-31 like J-11B, J-10C, J-20 comes with optronic sensor but it doesn't have long range IR guided missile neither. SU-30MKK has medium range IR guided R27T/ET that could launch guided by the optronic and will activate its IR seeker when target is near might be useful against F-35C.


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## waja2000

kungfugymnast said:


> FC-31 is likely for export market to China close ally that is enemy of US such as Iran. If US sent in their F-35C and Iran send in conventional fighters will be disadvantage of having to perform evasive maneuver a lot at higher risk of being shit down. Imagine 2 AMRAAMs at a time. Since F-35C carries all 4x AMRAAM, Iran with FC-31 could carry 2x PL-10 & 2x PL12 and the F-35C might not be able to track the FC-31 above 10 miles forcing it to go visual range engagement. Both might go into dogfight if stealth only failed at less than 5 miles..



From politics point if view, is unlikely china will sell J-31/FC-31 to Iraq. 
Iraq getting Su-35 easy than FC-31.



kungfugymnast said:


> You heard @Deino no politics.
> 
> Maybe FC-31 vs F-35C in air combat still relevant. PLAAF might build more J-20 rather than source for FC-31 for its inventory. With recent heightened tension, j-20 is higher priority for its range to take on enemy fighters and ships before they enter missiles effective range. With electronic warfare where both sides deploy ECM, all missiles and radar effective range reduced as in Iraq Desert Storm, all air to air engagement took place below 30 miles.
> 
> New optronic sensor nowadays, the best from US FLIR sniper pod claimed it could designate target 20 miles away including air targets such as UFO. US doesn't have long range IR guided missiles. For FC-31 like J-11B, J-10C, J-20 comes with optronic sensor but it doesn't have long range IR guided missile neither. SU-30MKK has medium range IR guided R27T/ET that could launch guided by the optronic and will activate its IR seeker when target is near might be useful against F-35C.



F-35 advantage in "network" warfare. unless you have better than F-35 “network” and sensor, if not just become blind target for F-35, not mention J-31, even J-20 also facing difficulty againt F-35


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## ozranger

waja2000 said:


> From politics point if view, is unlikely china will sell J-31/FC-31 to Iraq.
> Iraq getting Su-35 easy than FC-31.
> 
> F-35 advantage in "network" warfare. unless you have better than F-35 “network” and sensor, if not just become blind target for F-35, not mention J-31, even J-20 also facing difficulty againt F-35



The so called network warfare is composed of distributed sensors, directional data links and satellite relays. China has no problem on that for their own, otherwise they won't be able to deploy a missile like the following,







Support for export products could be different case by case. However it can at least be arranged. A good example of such is UAE operating their Wing Loong fleet with satellite relay support provided by China.


----------



## serenity

Airforce missiles for long range long ago since before J-20 start developing ways for high altitude drone or satellite and AWACs guidance for hundreds of kilometer range until missile itself become close enough to switch on own detectors. Now J-20 can sneak to front to guide long range types of missiles even to small drone and fighters. Or use KJ guidance or near space drones. We saw pictures of WZ8 in fact have been used any years along with twin body drones like dragon and eagle.

Unfortunately J-20 can only carry such long range missiles on the wings but if launch from 300km away or more then there is no problem with stealth anyway so long range missiles honestly can launch from both J-16 and J-20. Even future bomber types will launch this and maybe H-6 upgrade because everything is remote guidance. With big shrapnel warhead cone, they can use range detector to take small and fast objects at hundreds of kilometers.


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## Han Patriot

5G technology and AI is related to this.


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## kungfugymnast

waja2000 said:


> From politics point if view, is unlikely china will sell J-31/FC-31 to Iraq.
> Iraq getting Su-35 easy than FC-31.
> 
> 
> 
> F-35 advantage in "network" warfare. unless you have better than F-35 “network” and sensor, if not just become blind target for F-35, not mention J-31, even J-20 also facing difficulty againt F-35



Eh, that is Iran Persian, not Babylonian Iraq that in my previous comments. 

F35 network warfare is sure good and pretty sure US would have tested against their own ALQ-167/99 ECM. FC-31 still has satellite link and AWACS link, probably no radar sharing capability as in F-35 but still ok. All these F-35 network link only useful when they are up against enemy that has no advanced satellite view and less risk of exposing location when 1 F-35C far away with radar on to track enemy fighters while the rest of F-35C coming from other direction could engage enemies without having to turn on radar.

FC-31 will only be in trouble if their satellite & AWACS link susceptible to US jamming. If the jammer doesn't jam then FC-31 could stay off enemy's RWR using FLIR optronic IRST.


----------



## kungfugymnast

serenity said:


> Airforce missiles for long range long ago since before J-20 start developing ways for high altitude drone or satellite and AWACs guidance for hundreds of kilometer range until missile itself become close enough to switch on own detectors. Now J-20 can sneak to front to guide long range types of missiles even to small drone and fighters. Or use KJ guidance or near space drones. We saw pictures of WZ8 in fact have been used any years along with twin body drones like dragon and eagle.
> 
> Unfortunately J-20 can only carry such long range missiles on the wings but if launch from 300km away or more then there is no problem with stealth anyway so long range missiles honestly can launch from both J-16 and J-20. Even future bomber types will launch this and maybe H-6 upgrade because everything is remote guidance. With big shrapnel warhead cone, they can use range detector to take small and fast objects at hundreds of kilometers.



If J-20 carried large PL-17 or PL-21 externally under wing, the pylon will still increase J-20 RCS even after launching missiles. J-11B, J-16 will carry the long range missiles instead while J-20 provides tracking while staying off enemy radar.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> You heard @Deino no politics.



*Sorry again to step in and eventually you have an issue in reading or understanding: It is NOT only against politics, but against anything off-topic and you are again far, far away ... *

*Therefore STOP with any discussion on Iran, Iraq, ME or whatever as long as it is not related to the Chinese military, the PLAAF & PLAN and especially as thgis topic says, the FC-31.*

*If you want to continue with these fantasies of an Iranian purchase and its possible use against the F-35, there is an Iranian section in this forum.*


----------



## serenity

kungfugymnast said:


> If J-20 carried large PL-17 or PL-21 externally under wing, the pylon will still increase J-20 RCS even after launching missiles. J-11B, J-16 will carry the long range missiles instead while J-20 provides tracking while staying off enemy radar.



No the stealth fighter one can drop away. The latch is hidden and can be retracted and cover moves while pylon part drop away. Very expensive waste but for the desire goal it is only way.

J-20 not only use with 6 PL-15x and 2 PL-10. We see it carry four heavy fuel tanks under wings. J-20 will require to carry many long range and large heavy weapons under wings and for internal weapons as air defence.


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## PeacefulWar

serenity said:


> No the stealth fighter one can drop away. The latch is hidden and can be retracted and cover moves while pylon part drop away. Very expensive waste but for the desire goal it is only way.
> 
> J-20 not only use with 6 PL-15x and 2 PL-10. We see it carry four heavy fuel tanks under wings. J-20 will require to carry many long range and large heavy weapons under wings and for internal weapons as air defence.


6 PL-15? We only see 4 PL-15 so far.

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## serenity

PeacefulWar said:


> 6 PL-15? We only see 4 PL-15 so far.



PL-15x not PL-15. It is for J-20 with retracted wings and smaller diameter.

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## kungfugymnast

serenity said:


> PL-15x not PL-15. It is for J-20 with retracted wings and smaller diameter.



Thanks for the info. PL-15x with foldable fins for J-20 like revised AIM-120C7 that increases the numbers of AMRAAM in F-22 from 4 to 6 missiles. Do you think FC-31 could fit 6 missiles internally since their bay is larger than F-35?

My reply on your external pylons that are jettisonable on J-20 was deleted by Deino for no reason. It makes J-20 & FC-31 practical for long range sorties covering south China sea and entrance of Pacific Ocean.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Thanks for the info. PL-15x with foldable fins for J-20 like revised AIM-120C7 that increases the numbers of AMRAAM in F-22 from 4 to 6 missiles. Do you think FC-31 could fit 6 missiles internally since their bay is larger than F-35?
> 
> My reply on your external pylons that are jettisonable on J-20 was deleted by Deino for no reason. It makes J-20 & FC-31 practical for long range sorties covering south China sea and entrance of Pacific Ocean.




Honestly I have enough!

It was not deleted for no reason, but since you once again derailed a topic with off-topic replies. 
Even this constant PL-15 discussion here is off? 

You initiated a plain stupid discussion on Iran and then called others to stop including politics ... how pathetic.

And now either back to the FC-31 or you'll get the next vacation.

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## serenity

kungfugymnast said:


> Thanks for the info. PL-15x with foldable fins for J-20 like revised AIM-120C7 that increases the numbers of AMRAAM in F-22 from 4 to 6 missiles. Do you think FC-31 could fit 6 missiles internally since their bay is larger than F-35?
> 
> My reply on your external pylons that are jettisonable on J-20 was deleted by Deino for no reason. It makes J-20 & FC-31 practical for long range sorties covering south China sea and entrance of Pacific Ocean.



I don't think FC-31 can fit PL-15x up to six like J-20 can. FC-31 version 1 and 2 are too small even for missile about size of PL-12. We must wait to see how new FC-31 will look like for navy. Rumor about bigger size may become true but I doubt it can be much difference if they use WS-19. If Shenyang manage to change whole design and make a larger fighter for navy using WS-10 or WS-15 in the future then yes definitely possible to get 6 PL-15x. Unfortunately we have no idea now instead of just J-35 becoming navy project. If navy wants heavy stealth fighter I can imagine they want one over light fighter. Heavy fighter can increase fighting range the same way using drop pylon and retractable latch mechanism to carry heavy and large missile which prototype 1 and 2 definitely will not be able to take off from Liaoning.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Honestly I have enough!
> 
> It was not deleted for no reason, but since you once again derailed a topic with off-topic replies.
> Even this constant PL-15 discussion here is off?
> 
> You initiated a plain stupid discussion on Iran and then called others to stop including politics ... how pathetic.
> 
> And now either back to the FC-31 or you'll get the next vacation.



I only told @waja2000 that you restricted further talk on Iran so can't reply him on that. 

The post you removed was about FC-31 combat capability against its rival. How is that irrelevant?



serenity said:


> I don't think FC-31 can fit PL-15x up to six like J-20 can. FC-31 version 1 and 2 are too small even for missile about size of PL-12. We must wait to see how new FC-31 will look like for navy. Rumor about bigger size may become true but I doubt it can be much difference if they use WS-19. If Shenyang manage to change whole design and make a larger fighter for navy using WS-10 or WS-15 in the future then yes definitely possible to get 6 PL-15x. Unfortunately we have no idea now instead of just J-35 becoming navy project. If navy wants heavy stealth fighter I can imagine they want one over light fighter. Heavy fighter can increase fighting range the same way using drop pylon and retractable latch mechanism to carry heavy and large missile which prototype 1 and 2 definitely will not be able to take off from Liaoning.



Thanks. PL-12 already entered service before FC-31 prototype exist so its internal bay should fit PL-12. Hope they'll enlarge the internal bay to fit PL-15 to beat F-35C. Think FC-31 will remain as land based while J-35 will be new modified design.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> The post you removed was about FC-31 combat capability against its rival. How is that irrelevant?
> 
> Thanks. PL-12 already entered service before FC-31 prototype exist so its internal bay should fit PL-12. Hope they'll enlarge the internal bay to fit PL-15 to beat F-35C. Think FC-31 will remain as land based while J-35 will be new modified design.




It's is irrelevant since it is for the moment a most speculative issue based on wrong conclusions since You still think there will be a smaller FC-31 as a land-based medium-weight fighter and a much enlarged and refined naval version in the class of the J-20 powered by WS-10C and eventually later WS-15 featuring a huge weapons bay for 6 PL-15.

That's crap, pure nonsense and BS and we already discussed so often, therefore please STOP: 

The PLAN - by all we know from the most reliable members - has decided to proceed with a refined design based on the current FC-31 (V2). It will still be a medium-weight fighter powered by the WS-13 as an interim engine and later the WS-19. It therefore won't have a huge weapons bay or even side bays, it won't use WS-10C or even WS-15 ... it won't be a super-heavy weight fighter but that's regardless of what YOU think, not what the PLAN needs. They need a versatile modern high-end fighter that is a compromise between cost, complexity, capabilities and most of all being able to still be used off the Liaoning and Shandong carriers.

Therefore taht this as a final warning in the same way I warned and finally banned that clown who still thinks the J-20 uses already now a +240 kN TVC WS-15. 

If you want to discuss "What-IF", the please open a new thread, but here it won't be tolerated.
Period.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> It's is irrelevant since it is for the moment a most speculative issue based on wrong conclusions since You still think there will be a smaller FC-31 as a land-based medium-weight fighter and a much enlarged and refined naval version in the class of the J-20 powered by WS-10C and eventually later WS-15 featuring a huge weapons bay for 6 PL-15.
> 
> That's crap, pure nonsense and BS and we already discussed so often, therefore please STOP:
> 
> The PLAN - by all we know from the most reliable members - has decided to proceed with a refined design based on the current FC-31 (V2). It will still be a medium-weight fighter powered by the WS-13 as an interim engine and later the WS-19. It therefore won't have a huge weapons bay or even side bays, it won't use WS-10C or even WS-15 ... it won't be a super-heavy weight fighter but that's regardless of what YOU think, not what the PLAN needs. They need a versatile modern high-end fighter that is a compromise between cost, complexity, capabilities and most of all being able to still be used off the Liaoning and Shandong carriers.
> 
> Therefore taht this as a final warning in the same way I warned and finally banned that clown who still thinks the J-20 uses already now a +240 kN TVC WS-15.
> 
> If you want to discuss "What-IF", the please open a new thread, but here it won't be tolerated.
> Period.



Since when did I mention there's smaller FC-31? FC-31 is medium sized fighter powered by WS13 and WS19. It is still a prototype undergoing testing and development. It is for export only. The designation FC-31 is confirmed but not J-35.

The navalized stealth fighter will most likely a separate project and could be totally new fighter that is irrelevant to FC-31.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Since when did I mention there's smaller FC-31? FC-31 is medium sized fighter powered by WS13 and WS19. It is still a prototype undergoing testing and development. It is for export only. The designation FC-31 is confirmed but not J-35.
> 
> The navalized stealth fighter will most likely a separate project and could be totally new fighter that is irrelevant to FC-31.




Smaller that that developed larger J-35 taht you are proposing since weeks. Again: the FC-31 is a proof-of concept aimed to attract potential buyers abroad. No one expected it would simply be produced in serial without further development, refinement and modification. As such FC-31 is a proposed product aimed for export and has two demonstrators flying.

On the other side the J-35 is exactly what most of us expected: A serial development of that given FC-31 for the PLAN. And in contrast to your claims it will still be a medium weight class fighter, exactly what the proposed export FC-31 should have been but with specific changes related to the specific PLAN requirements. Anyway, IMO we can almost 100% be sure the J-35 will be a refined FC-31V2 with no enlargements to a heavy weight fighter, it will never ever use WS-10C or WS-15 and won't ever have a weapons bay similar or even larger than the J-20. Period.

As such do us a favour ans stop with these speculations there will be a hyper-mega-super enlarged FC-31 now called J-35 powered by WS-10C and in the class of the J-20. Simpy forget it. If you want to continue with this then start a new thread but here I will delete all further replies into such speculations.

End of this debate.


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## Silicon0000

Deino said:


> End of this debate.



Apologise in advance. (Below comments are on a lighter note. Don't take it on heart). 


Sometimes I feel if you simply ignored few posts (even if they are wrong), can save long debate of many pages. Some people simply loves to poke you.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1257352390510067719

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## lcloo

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1257352390510067719


Translation from French:-
This time, the Chinese army's (PLAAF) cockade (roundel) is indeed present, but only on a mock-up.
Still no formal confirmation despite a lot of hallway noises (rumours) ...

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## Deino

Allegedly the third prototype ... but IMO it looks more like the second one!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258298572572745730

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258301454131093504

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## Khanivore

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258331343269789696

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## Daniel808

*Photos spark talk of 2nd stealth fighter’s PLA commissioning*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2020/5/7 20:08:52






*A model of an FC-31 fighter jet is displayed at Airshow China 2018 in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province. Photo: Yang Sheng/GT
*
The maker of the FC-31, China's second stealth fighter jet following the J-20, recently revealed photos of a scale model of the aircraft painted with the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) insignia, a move military observers said suggested the warplane might join PLA service, despite being a made-for-export model.

State-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Shenyang Aircraft Design and Research Institute recently released photos of a scale model of the FC-31 painted with the August 1st Insignia of the PLA, reported Weihutang, a column on military affairs affiliated with China Central Television (CCTV), on Wednesday.

The model resembled the initial design of the FC-31 rather than the latest, upgraded one. It featured missiles under its wings, an open weapon bay under its belly, and a PLA insignia on a tail fin.

This has again sparked discussions over the warplane's potential commissioning into the PLA, Weihutang reported, noting that other media reports said that the made-for-export FC-31 would eventually enter PLA service.

The future of the aircraft could become clear soon, as China's in-development third aircraft carrier is expected to use a new fighter jet, a military expert who asked not to be named told the Global Times on Thursday.

China's current ship-borne fighter jet, J-15, could face challenges in dealing with the F-35, which is one generation more advanced than the current Chinese jet and has become widely deployed in the Asia-Pacific region by the US and its allies, the expert said.

Long believed to be a candidate to become China's next generation carrier-based fighter jet, the FC-31 is comparable to the F-35. The J-20 and a totally new aircraft are the other candidates.

The FC-31 is a single-seat, twin-engine multi-role fighter jet catering to the demands of future battlefield environments. It's 17.3 meters long and has a wingspan of 11.5 meters, according to an info flyer obtained by the Global Times at Airshow China 2018 in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province.

The FC-31 and J-20 need to be modified if one of them is to board a carrier, the expert said.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1187708.shtml

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Allegedly the third prototype ... but IMO it looks more like the second one!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258298572572745730
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258301454131093504


Isn't no one interested in a keypoint that it was found in Yanliang?

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## enroger

LKJ86 said:


> Isn't no one interested in a keypoint that it was found in Yanliang?



I noticed it, though it boggles the mind why V2 is there...

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Isn't no one interested in a keypoint that it was found in Yanliang?



I must have missed this ... the direct translation did not say a word. But this indeed wod be a hint of now being a PLA project - or am I wrong ? - and so it is a recent image?

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> But this indeed wod be a hint of now being a PLA project


Agreed

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Agreed




But how recent are these images?

Anyway, I must apologise again.... It is indeed the FC-31 prototype no. 31003.

(Image via xyqq/SDF)

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## Deino

Now I'm confused... Point is, the number confirms there is a third prototype and this seems to be that one. The question is - and so far I haven't got an answer - is this third airframe now the same aircraft we formerly knew as the second one (aka second flying one or V2) since the true second prototype is the statec test specimen or is this the third flying one and we haven't seen any images confirming a no. 31002 and the static test frames simply have no numbers?

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> Now I'm confused... Point is, the number confirms there is a third prototype and this seems to be that one. The question is - and so far I haven't got an answer - is this third airframe now the same aircraft we formerly knew as the second one (aka second flying one or V2) since the true second prototype is the statec test specimen or is this the third flying one and we haven't seen any images confirming a no. 31002 and the static test frames simply have no numbers?



VSTB gonna change soon... wait and watch..


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> Agreed



Wasn't the JF-17 also tested at Yanliang?

The lack of any PLA emblem suggests that this variant is still export-only.



Stealth said:


> VSTB gonna change soon... wait and watch..



Based on what? What sort of changes?


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## Deino

Deino said:


> But how recent are these images?
> 
> Anyway, I must apologise again.... It is indeed the FC-31 prototype no. 31003.
> 
> (Image via xyqq/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 630504



We'll see ...

Otherwise here's another image posted late yesterday evening, however it is PS'ed since someone took an existing image of that FC-31V2 parked on the tarmac, rotated it slightly in order to make it appear flying and put it against a false background to make it appear landing or at least in the air.

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## Tiqiu



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## Maxpane

Tiqiu said:


> View attachment 631072


sise weapon bay?


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## Deino

Maxpane said:


> sise weapon bay?




No, but this panel was always there on the first demonstrator.


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## enroger

Maxpane said:


> sise weapon bay?



Not enough length there for SD-10, blocked by main gear.

However I predict J-35 will have side bay by lengthening the fuselage.

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## Maxpane

Deino said:


> No, but this panel was always there on the first demonstrator.


ohh sorry . i thought its a weapon bay



enroger said:


> Not enough length there for SD-10, blocked by main gear.
> 
> However I predict J-35 will have side bay by lengthening the fuselage.


thanks for the info sir

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## Tiqiu

enroger said:


> Not enough length there for SD-10, blocked by main gear.
> 
> However I predict J-35 will have side bay by lengthening the fuselage.


The reported newly developed engin is 25 percent powerful than the ws13, thus the lengthening of its body is expected. I even guess it is already undergoing.

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## enroger

Tiqiu said:


> The reported newly developed engin is 25 percent powerful than the ws13, thus the lengthening of its body is expected. I even guess it is already undergoing.



Actually my rational is that lengthening has more to do with reducing trans/supersonic drag, improving area-ruling. FC-31 at it's current form is far from being able to super-cruise, therefore I think they'll do everything possible to achieve it, with new engine.


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## Deino

enroger said:


> Actually my rational is that lengthening has more to do with reducing trans/supersonic drag, improving area-ruling. FC-31 at it's current form is far from being able to super-cruise, therefore I think they'll do everything possible to achieve it, with new engine.




Why do you take this lengthening of the fuselage for granted?
The WS-19 is surely not yet ready and as such will the J-35 again use a WS-13, which won't require a change in the design.

Honestly, IMO the J-35 will be a more modest evolutionary adaption of the well known FC-31V2 with the necessary changes related to carrier use.


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## enroger

Deino said:


> Why do you take this lengthening of the fuselage for granted?
> The WS-19 is surely not yet ready and as such will the J-35 again use a WS-13, which won't require a change in the design.
> 
> Honestly, IMO the J-35 will be a more modest evolutionary adaption of the well known FC-31V2 with the necessary changes related to carrier use.



I'm not taking it granted yet, just predicting it.

FC-31 has weapon bay almost the size of J-20 main bay yet has a much shorter length, its area-ruling must be worse than J-20 right? This is not good for super-cruise, the navy really wants a super-cruise plane so SAC will have to do anything necessary. I also predict a slight shrink of the weapon bay, just enough to hold 4 new folded fin AAM, though side-bay is possible since the current position is wasted anyway.

Basically reduce max cross-section area as much as possible and lengthen to produce much reduced supersonic drag, so more like hornet to super-hornet kind of change.

I admit it is more or less my own wish list but it makes sense, those're what I'd do to please the navy.

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## kungfugymnast

enroger said:


> Not enough length there for SD-10, blocked by main gear.
> 
> However I predict J-35 will have side bay by lengthening the fuselage.



I said that too as changes can be made while still on prototype stage ended up being warned by mod for topic violation.


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## Deino

Yes, since you constantly post things that have been discussed since years, which are no longer on the agenda from all we know and you repeatedly mix it with even more stupid politics!

That's why you got your warning and again: Please go ahead and start a new thread on "WHAT if the J-35 would be a heavy fighter with 2x WS-10C?" but don't spam this one .

By the way:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260150532116602881

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## kungfugymnast

Tiqiu said:


> The reported newly developed engin is 25 percent powerful than the ws13, thus the lengthening of its body is expected. I even guess it is already undergoing.



2nd person with saying the same thing. The FC-31 having 25% more power is added advantage, it sure needs the power it could get for better performance when loaded. WS19 engine is probably still in development while WS13E serves as backup in case they need to push FC-31 into production asap.


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## enroger

kungfugymnast said:


> I said that too as changes can be made while still on prototype stage ended up being warned by mod for topic violation.



lets just wait and see. if I turned out to be right I'd sure be reminding everybody .


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## Deino

via 'dzytc' at the https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2622007-1-1.html

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## kungfugymnast

enroger said:


> lets just wait and see. if I turned out to be right I'd sure be reminding everybody .



You mean we becoz I said that earlier in March.



Deino said:


> via 'dzytc' at the https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2622007-1-1.html
> 
> View attachment 631746



It looks like RC jet by the way. Can I add the enlarged navalized J-35 prediction to our bet?


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> ...
> It looks like RC jet by the way. Can I add the enlarged navalized J-35 prediction to our bet?



You mean I will resign as a moderator if SAC indeed develops and flies an enlarged WS-10-powered navalised J-35 until years's end?


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> You mean I will resign as a moderator if SAC indeed develops and flies an enlarged WS-10-powered navalised J-35 until years's end?



You're not resigning, just don't suspend before giving fair trial. That is for J-35 if Shenyang decided to go ahead but their focus now if FC-31. As per few of them here, the main bay could barely fit PL-12, so they might lengthen to fit PL-15.


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## Ultima Thule

kungfugymnast said:


> You're not resigning, just don't suspend before giving fair trial. That is for J-35 if Shenyang decided to go ahead but their focus now if FC-31. As per few of them here, the main bay could barely fit PL-12, so they might lengthen to fit PL-15.


J-31 IS MEDIUM FIGHTER, IF IT WILL INTENDED TO USE WS-10 ITS IS TIME CUNSUMING AND COST LOTS MORE $$$ BECAUSE YOU HAVE REDISGN ALMOST ALL J-35


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## kungfugymnast

IAU said:


> J-31 IS MEDIUM FIGHTER, IF IT WILL INTENDED TO USE WS-10 ITS IS TIME CUNSUMING AND COST LOTS MORE $$$ BECAUSE YOU HAVE REDISGN ALMOST ALL J-35



My prediction is that FC-31 and J-35 will be 2 different aircrafts. Let's wait and see how it turns out. Current development is for FC-31 that will be fitted with WS-13E and later WS19 engine


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## serenity

No Kungfugymnast it is rumor that there is no huge size difference between final version and prototypes. Definitely can forget about using WS-10 on larger FC-31 for navy. The navy wants many fighters for 003 and future versions. Now the mystery really is about J-15. I will assume J-35 is for stealth and fly in front to detect targets and guide long range missiles launched by J-15 similar to J-16 an J-20 but navy requires smaller J-35 so more fighter can be fit inside carrier. The important job is eyes not for carrying so many different large missiles. 4 PL-15 if it can carry will be very good already.

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## kungfugymnast

serenity said:


> No Kungfugymnast it is rumor that there is no huge size difference between final version and prototypes. Definitely can forget about using WS-10 on larger FC-31 for navy. The navy wants many fighters for 003 and future versions. Now the mystery really is about J-15. I will assume J-35 is for stealth and fly in front to detect targets and guide long range missiles launched by J-15 similar to J-16 an J-20 but navy requires smaller J-35 so more fighter can be fit inside carrier. The important job is eyes not for carrying so many different large missiles. 4 PL-15 if it can carry will be very good already.



If PLAN next carrier 003 managed to come up with working launch system comparable to US super carriers, expect it to be as big as US Nimitz class carrier large enough to house many large fighters. F-14B tomcat at 62ft long, wingspan 64 ft unswept 32ft swept, F/A-18E length 60ft and wingspan 44ft no space issue with US carriers. The J15 is far larger at 71ft long and 48ft wide. 

As for FC-31 some said its internal bay could barely fit PL-12 and can't fit PL-15 which is serious matter if it's true as these will be the standard air to air missiles. Lengthening FC31 is simpler than Boeing attempt to lengthen its X-31. If PLAN decided to have FC-31 on board type 003, its requirements will need the PL-15.

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## Aspen

enroger said:


> Actually my rational is that lengthening has more to do with reducing trans/supersonic drag, improving area-ruling. FC-31 at it's current form is far from being able to super-cruise, therefore I think they'll do everything possible to achieve it, with new engine.



It's possible that they are lengthening it for supercruise ability, but I would have thought that the original design would have accounted for this. I think powerplant efficiency matters more for supercruise than supersonic drag but others would know better than me on that. I am leaning toward theory that lengthening is because of weapons bay constraints. Not being able to carry large enough missiles is really a huge problem that is non-negotiable in my opinion. If small weapons bay turns out to be a problem, evidence of new larger weapons bay would be pretty clear proof that this issue had at least a partial role in changing size of plane. But I think this actually introduces a new problem which is that with stealth planes, a concealed weapons bay means you will have size constraints on any missiles designed after the plane goes into service. So alternative solution to enlarging the plane is to make the missiles smaller as this technology will have to be developed at some point in the long term anyway.

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## Ultima Thule

kungfugymnast said:


> If PLAN next carrier 003 managed to come up with working launch system comparable to US super carriers, expect it to be as big as US Nimitz class carrier large enough to house many large fighters. F-14B tomcat at 62ft long, wingspan 64 ft unswept 32ft swept, F/A-18E length 60ft and wingspan 44ft no space issue with US carriers. The J15 is far larger at 71ft long and 48ft wide.
> 
> As for FC-31 some said its internal bay could barely fit PL-12 and can't fit PL-15 which is serious matter if it's true as these will be the standard air to air missiles. Lengthening FC31 is simpler than Boeing attempt to lengthen its X-31. If PLAN decided to have FC-31 on board type 003, its requirements will need the PL-15.


stop derailing the thread and don't compare USN carriers philosophies to other countries carrier philosophies (Chinese) which might be different

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## enroger

Aspen said:


> It's possible that they are lengthening it for supercruise ability, but I would have thought that the original design would have accounted for this. I think powerplant efficiency matters more for supercruise than supersonic drag but others would know better than me on that. I am leaning toward theory that lengthening is because of weapons bay constraints. Not being able to carry large enough missiles is really a huge problem that is non-negotiable in my opinion. If small weapons bay turns out to be a problem, evidence of new larger weapons bay would be pretty clear proof that this issue had at least a partial role in changing size of plane. But I think this actually introduces a new problem which is that with stealth planes, a concealed weapons bay means you will have size constraints on any missiles designed after the plane goes into service. So alternative solution to enlarging the plane is to make the missiles smaller as this technology will have to be developed at some point in the long term anyway.



IMO large weapon bay is not a must for J-35, as a naval bird it does have anti-surface needs, but requiring it to internally hold ashm will make it a radically different thing, ie a F-35 like striker. It is enough for it to internally hold A2A load, ashm will just have to go external or let J-15 carries them. J-35 primary purpose should be air-superiority, with ability to hold SDB internally.

Supercruise depends on two things, drag and engine dry thrust at that speed and altitude, if you don't have op engine then you better have low drag. I just suspect FC-31 needs to further reduce drag, I have good reasons though of course I can be wrong.


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## waja2000

enroger said:


> IMO large weapon bay is not a must for J-35, as a naval bird it does have anti-surface needs, but requiring it to internally hold ashm will make it a radically different thing, ie a F-35 like striker. It is enough for it to internally hold A2A load, ashm will just have to go external or let J-15 carries them. J-35 primary purpose should be air-superiority, with ability to hold SDB internally.
> Supercruise depends on two things, drag and engine dry thrust at that speed and altitude, if you don't have op engine then you better have low drag. I just suspect FC-31 needs to further reduce drag, I have good reasons though of course I can be wrong.



i think J-35 can further improve in
1) Add ETOS 
2) large wings (like F-35 type c) to increase ~1 ton fuel (~400km range)
3) more powerful engine (In progress)
4) Dual seater for version? 
5) further development of smaller size missile (In progress)
6) Electronic warfare version ?
7) Able to control UAV ?

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## enroger

waja2000 said:


> i think J-35 can further improve in
> 1) Add ETOS
> 2) large wings (like F-35 type c) to increase ~1 ton fuel (~400km range)
> 3) more powerful engine (In progress)
> 4) Dual seater for version?
> 5) further development of smaller size missile (In progress)
> 6) Electronic warfare version ?
> 7) Able to control UAV ?



Those things are reasonable. I'm a little conflicted on larger wing span though, it is better for low speed handling, very important for carrier ops; but it adds drag at high speed.... just have to wait and see.


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1262041109284499460

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## Deino

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1262041109284499460




IMO the most important news is, that this image was taken at the CFTE at Xi'an-Yanliang and no longer at SAC at Shenyang-Beiling.

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## PeacefulWar

Deino said:


> IMO the most important news is, that this image was taken at the CFTE at Xi'an-Yanliang and no longer at SAC at Shenyang-Beiling.


Is it possible that J-35 become an JV project between SAC and CFTE?


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## Deino

PeacefulWar said:


> Is it possible that J-35 become an JV project between SAC and CFTE?




No

First of all this is not the J-35 and second CFTE is not a future operator but simply the state-owned test-facility and -establishment.

As such it could be that the PLA (PLAN and PLAAF) might be indeed involved in this project and that SAC got a contract for this.


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## PeacefulWar

Deino said:


> No
> 
> First of all this is not the J-35 and second CFTE is not a future operator but simply the state-owned test-facility and -establishment.
> 
> As such it could be that the PLA (PLAN and PLAAF) might be indeed involved in this project and that SAC got a contract for this.


My bad.
I meant XAC


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## Stealth



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## Deino

Stealth said:


> View attachment 634171




...we know V2 sincs 2016. So what's so special?

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## StormBreaker

Stealth said:


> View attachment 634171


Bhai, It is third, Not second.


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## Stealth

Deino said:


> ...we know V2 sincs 2016. So what's so special?



It's a 2nd prototype of V2, not V1 nor you call it V3 ... there is a difference between versions and amendments in prototype...

V1-1
V1-2 (Updates in V1-1)
V1-3 (Updates in V1-2)

V2-1 (Version changed when major updates across the platform including design, structure, internal and external components)
V2-2 (Updates in V2)

It happens when you just only get information from the internet LOL

If I will take your logic, then F-35 probably has more than 100 prototypes ... If you start calling every single change and amendment "New prototype"



StormBreaker said:


> Bhai, It is third, Not second.




Your answer is above buddy!

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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> Bhai, It is third, Not second.




Tes, but only since we've never seen the true second one before and always thougt this is the second while it was in fact the third

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## StormBreaker

Stealth said:


> It's a 2nd prototype of V2, not V1 nor you call it V3 ... there is a difference between versions and amendments in prototype...
> 
> V1-1
> V1-2 (Updates in V1-1)
> V1-3 (Updates in V1-2)
> 
> V2-1 (Version changed when major updates across the platform including design, structure, internal and external components)
> V2-2 (Updates in V2)
> 
> It happens when you just only get information from the internet LOL
> 
> If I will take your logic, then F-35 probably has more than 100 prototypes ... If you start calling every single change and amendment "New prototype"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your answer is above buddy!


Pardon my ignorance,

Has V1 seen three different units ?


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## Stealth

StormBreaker said:


> Pardon my ignorance,
> 
> Has V1 seen three different units ?



I have just provided how things are working... You can label it whatever you like but in reality, V2 has more stuff, upgrades in design structure (internally and externally). This is not the prototype V3. Prototype means gonna see completely new aircraft in terms of everything whereas you have already seen exactly similar kinds of aircraft before (as deino) since 2016. So what does that mean? obviously these are amendments, upgrades in the V2.













See the difference. Now match left one (Golden one) with the latest picture and let me know how many major changes you've seen in the new one. If not then its a V2-2 maybe V2-3 or maybe V2-4

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## StormBreaker

Stealth said:


> I have just provided how things are working... You can label it whatever you like but in reality, V2 has more stuff, upgrades in design structure (internally and externally). This is not the prototype V3. Prototype means gonna see completely new aircraft in terms of everything whereas you have already seen exactly similar kinds of aircraft before (as deino) since 2016. So what does that mean? obviously these are amendments, upgrades in the V2.


I see,

You have got a valid point.

However, That logic conflicts with the Thunder And J-20 prototypes history.

Lack of official details about prototypes and developed units directly from the designer makes us all think in different ways.

The machine seems much similar to the one we saw in 2016. But we never saw that machine clearly with It’s PT number so we can assume this one is the same as the one from 2016 with maybe some optimizations.

That leaves a room for v3.



Stealth said:


> I have just provided how things are working... You can label it whatever you like but in reality, V2 has more stuff, upgrades in design structure (internally and externally). This is not the prototype V3. Prototype means gonna see completely new aircraft in terms of everything whereas you have already seen exactly similar kinds of aircraft before (as deino) since 2016. So what does that mean? obviously these are amendments, upgrades in the V2.
> 
> View attachment 634183
> 
> 
> View attachment 634182
> 
> 
> 
> See the difference. Now match left one (Golden one) with the latest picture and let me know how many major changes you've seen in the new one. If not then its a V2-2 maybe V2-3 or maybe V2-4


Oh ok


----------



## Deino

Stealth said:


> ...
> See the difference. Now match left one (Golden one) with the latest picture and let me know how many major changes you've seen in the new one. If not then its a V2-2 maybe V2-3 or maybe V2-4




I think the changrs from demonstrator 31001 (aka V1) to 31003 (aka V2) are obvious but to conclude from the latest image only based on the missing pitot and the golden tinted canopy - other changes I cannot see - that it might be a V2-2 or more is IMO a bit farfetched.

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## Silicon0000

If I got it right, you mean it's the 3rd prototype of FC31 and 2nd prototype of FC31-V2. Right?



Stealth said:


> It's a 2nd prototype of V2, not V1 nor you call it V3 ... there is a difference between versions and amendments in prototype...
> 
> V1-1
> V1-2 (Updates in V1-1)
> V1-3 (Updates in V1-2)
> 
> V2-1 (Version changed when major updates across the platform including design, structure, internal and external components)
> V2-2 (Updates in V2)
> 
> It happens when you just only get information from the internet LOL
> 
> If I will take your logic, then F-35 probably has more than 100 prototypes ... If you start calling every single change and amendment "New prototype"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your answer is above buddy!





Stealth said:


> I have just provided how things are working... You can label it whatever you like but in reality, V2 has more stuff, upgrades in design structure (internally and externally). This is not the prototype V3. Prototype means gonna see completely new aircraft in terms of everything whereas you have already seen exactly similar kinds of aircraft before (as deino) since 2016. So what does that mean? obviously these are amendments, upgrades in the V2.
> 
> View attachment 634183
> 
> 
> View attachment 634182
> 
> 
> 
> See the difference. Now match left one (Golden one) with the latest picture and let me know how many major changes you've seen in the new one. If not then its a V2-2 maybe V2-3 or maybe V2-4

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## Deino

Silicon0000 said:


> If I got it right, you mean it's the 3rd prototype of FC31 and 2nd prototype of FC31-V2. Right?




Yes and no, but this first V2 prototype is most likely a non-flying prototype.

So - at least like I understand tbe situation - there are three prototypes, one V1 (31001) and two V2 (a static one we haven't seen and 31003).


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## LKJ86

Via @9谢艺航6 from Weibo

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> Yes and no, but this first V2 prototype is most likely a non-flying prototype.
> 
> So - at least like I understand tbe situation - there are three prototypes, one V1 (31001) and two V2 (a static one we haven't seen and 31003).


 The way we understand things are bit diff from aviation industry. You can call it proto 3 but in real, its a prototype 2. We have just seen static v of 2. This is exactly flying version of 2 u can say it ...

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## Stealth

Another info no idea about authenticity of it. SAC has refused any foreign partnership in this project.

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## Deino

Stealth said:


> Another info no idea about authenticity of it. SAC has refused any foreign partnership in this project.




Which could be rsad as yet another hint for being niw a PLA priority project.

Let's wait and see

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## Stealth

Stealth said:


> Another info no idea about authenticity of it. SAC has refused any foreign partnership in this project.



Once you involved partners in your project for whatever the reasons, you actually lose many customers. It's super easy to understand why. Your partners are well aware of the capability, flaws, in and outs of the project which probably a major key to failure in terms of sale. For instance (just creating a scenario for explanation) if tomorrow Pakistan officially becomes a partner in the FC-31 project (which is specifically designed for the foreign customers - that's what we know so far), that will probably narrow down the sale of the aircraft to many other countries. That obvious because Pakistan knows the ability, capability, strength of the aircraft so India won't go for it (another hint of refusing BLK70 of Lockheed). You only involved partners when you're running out of $$ or doesn't have enough $$ to initiate R&D. So in this case, SAC has enough funds to run this project on its own.

We will see bright accurate pictures in upcoming days with some authentic information on the aircraft as well.


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## Stealth

Old but for reference


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## LKJ86

Stealth said:


> Once you involved partners in your project for whatever the reasons, you actually lose many customers. It's super easy to understand why. Your partners are well aware of the capability, flaws, in and outs of the project which probably a major key to failure in terms of sale.


That's not the point.
In a JV project, what different partners need are usually not the same, needing to waste a lot of time to compromise. And it would be a disaster for a project.


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## JSCh

牧是家
今天 11:41 来自 HUAWEI P20 Pro
分享图片 2沈阳

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## Deino

JSCh said:


> 牧是家
> 今天 11:41 来自 HUAWEI P20 Pro
> 分享图片 2沈阳




So again back at Shenyang-Beiling?


----------



## JSCh

*China’s FC-31 stealth fighter jet making new progress, photos show*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2020/5/25 18:18:16




A Chinese FC-31 stealth fighter has its test flight ahead of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, Nov 10, 2014. File photo: Xinhua

New photos of a prototype FC-31, China's second type of stealth fighter jet, have been appearing frequently on Chinese social media since May, years after disappearing from the public eye. Now painted in a silver gray coating, its development is making smooth progress, experts said on Monday.

A new set of photos of what seems to be an FC-31 fighter jet on a test flight was posted on Sina Weibo on Saturday. This is not the first time the aircraft has made an appearance recently, as some photos were also posted by another Sina Weibo user on May 18, Shanghai-based news outlet eastday.com reported.

Unlike photos taken in previous years, the FC-31 prototype in the new photos is painted with silver gray coating, eastday.com said. It seems to be an upgraded version with modifications made to its aerodynamic design just like the prototype that made its maiden flight in 2016, instead of the original version that made its public debut at Airshow China in 2014.

The authenticity of the photos, including the time and location they were taken, cannot be verified.

The photos soon sparked heated discussions among military enthusiasts, as they were reposted on forums on military affairs and overseas social media like Twitter.

Fu Qianshao, a Chinese air defense expert, told the Global Times that the new painting could be a sign that the FC-31 was testing its stealth capability and low-observability against the naked eye.

Fu said that while the photos could not show exactly how much progress had been made, the aircraft is confirmed to be conducting new test flights and making significant steps.

Based on the results of the test flights, improved prototypes could be made, Fu said.

Military observers have long speculated that the made-for-export FC-31 could be put into domestic military service. Some claimed an upgraded FC-31 could serve as China's next-generation carrier-based fighter jet.

The Chinese Air Force, Navy and foreign clients could all be interested in this advanced stealth fighter jet, Fu said, noting that the FC-31 will likely continue its development and be equipped with new engines and devices in the future.

The FC-31 is a single-seat, twin-engine multi-role fighter jet catering to the demands of future battlefield environments. It is 17.3 meters long and has a wingspan of 11.5 meters, according to an info flyer by its maker Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) in 2018.

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## beijingwalker

*China’s FC-31 stealth fighter jet making new progress, photos show*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2020/5/25 18:18:16






New photos of a prototype FC-31, China's second type of stealth fighter jet, have been appearing frequently on Chinese social media since May, years after disappearing from the public eye. Now painted in a silver gray coating, its development is making smooth progress, experts said on Monday.

A new set of photos of what seems to be an FC-31 fighter jet on a test flight was posted on Sina Weibo on Saturday. This is not the first time the aircraft has made an appearance recently, as some photos were also posted by another Sina Weibo user on May 18, Shanghai-based news outlet eastday.com reported.

Unlike photos taken in previous years, the FC-31 prototype in the new photos is painted with silver gray coating, eastday.com said. It seems to be an upgraded version with modifications made to its aerodynamic design just like the prototype that made its maiden flight in 2016, instead of the original version that made its public debut at Airshow China in 2014.

The authenticity of the photos, including the time and location they were taken, cannot be verified.

The photos soon sparked heated discussions among military enthusiasts, as they were reposted on forums on military affairs and overseas social media like Twitter.

Fu Qianshao, a Chinese air defense expert, told the Global Times that the new painting could be a sign that the FC-31 was testing its stealth capability and low-observability against the naked eye.

Fu said that while the photos could not show exactly how much progress had been made, the aircraft is confirmed to be conducting new test flights and making significant steps.

Based on the results of the test flights, improved prototypes could be made, Fu said.

Military observers have long speculated that the made-for-export FC-31 could be put into domestic military service. Some claimed an upgraded FC-31 could serve as China's next-generation carrier-based fighter jet.

The Chinese Air Force, Navy and foreign clients could all be interested in this advanced stealth fighter jet, Fu said, noting that the FC-31 will likely continue its development and be equipped with new engines and devices in the future.

The FC-31 is a single-seat, twin-engine multi-role fighter jet catering to the demands of future battlefield environments. It is 17.3 meters long and has a wingspan of 11.5 meters, according to an info flyer by its maker Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) in 2018.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1189444.shtml

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## Trailer23

So, where are these '*photos*'?

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## Indos

beijingwalker said:


> *China’s FC-31 stealth fighter jet making new progress, photos show*
> By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2020/5/25 18:18:16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New photos of a prototype FC-31, China's second type of stealth fighter jet, have been appearing frequently on Chinese social media since May, years after disappearing from the public eye. Now painted in a silver gray coating, its development is making smooth progress, experts said on Monday.
> 
> A new set of photos of what seems to be an FC-31 fighter jet on a test flight was posted on Sina Weibo on Saturday. This is not the first time the aircraft has made an appearance recently, as some photos were also posted by another Sina Weibo user on May 18, Shanghai-based news outlet eastday.com reported.
> 
> Unlike photos taken in previous years, the FC-31 prototype in the new photos is painted with silver gray coating, eastday.com said. It seems to be an upgraded version with modifications made to its aerodynamic design just like the prototype that made its maiden flight in 2016, instead of the original version that made its public debut at Airshow China in 2014.
> 
> The authenticity of the photos, including the time and location they were taken, cannot be verified.
> 
> The photos soon sparked heated discussions among military enthusiasts, as they were reposted on forums on military affairs and overseas social media like Twitter.
> 
> Fu Qianshao, a Chinese air defense expert, told the Global Times that the new painting could be a sign that the FC-31 was testing its stealth capability and low-observability against the naked eye.
> 
> Fu said that while the photos could not show exactly how much progress had been made, the aircraft is confirmed to be conducting new test flights and making significant steps.
> 
> Based on the results of the test flights, improved prototypes could be made, Fu said.
> 
> Military observers have long speculated that the made-for-export FC-31 could be put into domestic military service. Some claimed an upgraded FC-31 could serve as China's next-generation carrier-based fighter jet.
> 
> The Chinese Air Force, Navy and foreign clients could all be interested in this advanced stealth fighter jet, Fu said, noting that the FC-31 will likely continue its development and be equipped with new engines and devices in the future.
> 
> The FC-31 is a single-seat, twin-engine multi-role fighter jet catering to the demands of future battlefield environments. It is 17.3 meters long and has a wingspan of 11.5 meters, according to an info flyer by its maker Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) in 2018.
> https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1189444.shtml



Please post the photo in this thread.


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## beijingwalker



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## Song Hong

I have thought that FC-31 was canned. 

Are the PLAN reviving it?


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## Ultima Thule

Song Hong said:


> I have thought that FC-31 was canned.
> 
> Are the PLAN reviving it?


they are developing J-35 further improved version of FC-31 for PLAAN


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## JSCh

*Speculation of military commission rises as FC-31 stealth fighter jet appears in PLA Navy recruitment video*
By Liu Xuanzun Source:Global Times Published: 2020/6/4 19:03:41



Photo: Screenshot from China Central Television

After China's FC-31 stealth fighter jet appeared in the most recent pilot recruitment video for the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy, speculation increased that the aircraft could become China's next generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet.

The PLA Navy's pilot recruitment program for 2020 recently started, with students from all around the country gathering for a series of qualification tests in Zhengzhou, Central China's Henan Province, state broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV) reported on Wednesday.

This year's tests featured more subjects based on past years' experience and also made COVID-19 prevention and control a priority.

The CCTV report featured a video which introduced the requirements to apply for the program, in which a cartoon figure of a pilot sitting in a FC-31 fighter jet is displayed.

Chinese military observers speculate that this is yet another official hint that the FC-31 might become China's next generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet.



A model of an FC-31 fighter jet is displayed at Airshow China 2018 in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province. Photo: Yang Sheng/GT

According to the website of the PLA Navy's pilot recruitment program, pilot cadets will study five years before graduation.

In these five years, the FC-31, which is still under development, could finish the necessary modifications and join the PLA Navy, as China's third, more advanced aircraft carrier could also be commissioned around that time, observers predict.

Other observers expressed doubt over how much the cartoon figure reflects the PLA Navy's plan. They say the video is likely made by CCTV and not the Navy, and it could be just a random picture.

Independently developed by the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the FC-31 is a single-seat, twin-engine multi-role stealth fighter jet available for export, but rumors persist that it would be commissioned into domestic military forces.

Recent photos circulating on Chinese social media show the FC-31 has been making new test flights as one prototype is painted in a new silver-gray coating, reports said.

Fu Qianshao, a Chinese air defense expert, told the Global Times that the development of the FC-31 is seemingly making rapid progress, and that he hopes it will eventually serve in the PLA.

The development of the FC-31 will continue, and modifications will likely be made based on test flights, including the installation of new engines and other devices, Fu said.

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## LKJ86

Via @中国航空研究院 from Weixin

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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 646063
> 
> Via @中国航空研究院 from Weixin


what does it mean sir?


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## LKJ86

Maxpane said:


> what does it mean sir?


Maiden flight in 2021 ?!

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Maiden flight in 2021 ?!




So it refers to this post?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/j-xy...er-borne-fighter.518751/page-12#post-12488867

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> So it refers to this post?
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/j-xy...er-borne-fighter.518751/page-12#post-12488867


Yes

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> So it refers to this post?
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/j-xy...er-borne-fighter.518751/page-12#post-12488867


Yes.

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## CIA Mole

Hi why have J31 and J20? What is advantage of J20? 

I would think J31 has better stealth profile and is cheaper to produce?

Why is J20 so much bigger?


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## python-000

Till when China ramphs up the production of J-31C/J-35...


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## Brainsucker

CIA Mole said:


> Hi why have J31 and J20? What is advantage of J20?
> 
> I would think J31 has better stealth profile and is cheaper to produce?
> 
> Why is J20 so much bigger?



This is also has become my question for some time now. PLAAF tend to love bigger aircraft, it seems.


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## Figaro

Brainsucker said:


> This is also has become my question for some time now. PLAAF tend to love bigger aircraft, it seems.


J-10 is not a big aircraft ...



CIA Mole said:


> I would think J31 has better stealth profile and is cheaper to produce?


Not necessarily ... just because the FC-31 is a smaller aircraft does not mean it has a smaller RCS


----------



## vi-va

Brainsucker said:


> This is also has become my question for some time now. PLAAF tend to love bigger aircraft, it seems.


No. We need bigger jet because we have same needs as Russia, large land to be covered. But mid weight jets are always needed for front line combat. 
The mid weight jets are much easier to maintain and requirement of runway is lower, even 6-8 lanes free way is ok for emergent landing.

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## kungfugymnast

Brainsucker said:


> This is also has become my question for some time now. PLAAF tend to love bigger aircraft, it seems.



China is large country with large area to cover therefore large fuel tanks long range and fast fighter is preferred. J-20 is capable of Mach 2.5 max and has more fuel to burn in case of emergency engaging fighters far at sea before enemy fighters, bombers could get beyond striking range. FC-31 is made for stable low speed maneuverability like F-35 and F/A-18 therefore it is less aerodynamic being slower with shorter combat radius.

Hope the J-35 will be different fighter being larger meant for catapult launch and is not FC-31.

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## jjx wood

Figaro said:


> J-10 is not a big aircraft ...
> 
> 
> Not necessarily ... just because the FC-31 is a smaller aircraft does not mean it has a smaller RCS


In single engine category, J10 is larger than most of them.


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## Figaro

python-000 said:


> Till when China ramphs up the production of J-31C/J-35...


Chill out ... we haven't even see any pictures of the J-35 yet. Its maiden flight is scheduled for next year. Only after a couple years of prototyping will it enter mass production and possibly be available for export.


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## python-000

Why so silent on this J-31/J-35 threat bro...


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## Deino

In my opinion the probably best image of the second FC-31 demonstrator no. 31003 in full reheat.

(Image via 云上铁翼/https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2647979&extra=page%3D1)

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> (Image via 云上铁翼/https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2647979&extra=page%3D1)










Source: https://weibo.com/u/2685677853

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## Deino

Do we know how recent this image is?


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## Imran Khan

Deino said:


> In my opinion the probably best image of the second FC-31 demonstrator no. 31003 in full reheat.
> 
> (Image via 云上铁翼/https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2647979&extra=page%3D1)
> 
> 
> View attachment 667280


WTH is PAF waiting for ?


----------



## GumNaam

is the J31 REALLY just a techology demonstrator? It has ALL the makings of a true air superiority fighter that can butcher the f22s & f35s with its ultra long range AAMs. I would be very disappointed if the PLAAF does not induct these warbirds in mass.


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## Stealth

Told you guys before... you will see the picture in Sept  LOL

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## PakFactor

GumNaam said:


> is the J31 REALLY just a techology demonstrator? It has ALL the makings of a true air superiority fighter that can butcher the f22s & f35s with its ultra long range AAMs. I would be very disappointed if the PLAAF does not induct these warbirds in mass.



It's moved past that or they wouldn't have wasted time on this bird. We might see induction in the future PLAAF and possibly even PAF.


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## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 667283
> View attachment 667282
> 
> Source: https://weibo.com/u/2685677853


Send it for the production line immediatly it look fantastic...


----------



## Figaro

python-000 said:


> Send it for the production line immediatly it look fantastic...


If the demonstrator looks that good, I wonder what the final production variant or prototype would look like.


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## samsara

Deino said:


> In my opinion the probably best image of the second FC-31 demonstrator no. 31003 in full reheat.
> 
> (Image via 云上铁翼/https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2647979&extra=page%3D1)
> 
> 
> View attachment 667280


From the same thread, some one posted:

应该是施佬说的电子设备和雷达验证机，是31002改来的，和明年收费的那个还有区别

_The 31002 should be the electronic equipment and radar verification machine as mentioned earlier, which is different from the one launched next year_

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## ziaulislam

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 667283
> View attachment 667282
> 
> Source: https://weibo.com/u/2685677853


PAF should aim for 36-72 with small batch orders throughout 2025-2030 before AZM comes in


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## CIA Mole

ziaulislam said:


> PAF should aim for 36-72 with small batch orders throughout 2025-2030 before AZM comes in



Probably won't be exported until 2030. But Chinese may have new fighter by then who knows.


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## kuge

what engines will be used for the next yr model?


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## samsara

.
.
*From OedoSoldier on 2020.09.07:*

FC-31 3号機

_*FC-31 machine #3*_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1302792939484016640
~~~~~~~~~~

*From Rupprecht A. Deino on 2020.09.07:*

_In my opinion the probably best image of the second FC-31 demonstrator no. 31003 in full reheat.

(Image via 云上铁翼/https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2647979&extra=page%3D1)_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1302673099750596614
~~~~~~~~~~

*From Henri Kenhmann at East Pendulum on 2020.09.07:*

_We are talking about a photo of the FC-31 dating from last month, the question arises as to whether it is really the 3rd prototype (registered 31003 as seen on the front), or it is modified from the 2nd.

In any case still no PLAN colors but those of AVIC._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1302808360408895489

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## Figaro

kuge said:


> what engines will be used for the next yr model?


A heavily upgraded WS-13 variant


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## kungfugymnast

GumNaam said:


> is the J31 REALLY just a techology demonstrator? It has ALL the makings of a true air superiority fighter that can butcher the f22s & f35s with its ultra long range AAMs. I would be very disappointed if the PLAAF does not induct these warbirds in mass.



FC-31 will serve as flight testing module for PLAN next upcoming J-35 fighter. The wings swept angle similar to F-35 is suited for carrier takeoff and landing. 

FC-31 will not go to waste but will be made for export market sold to friendlies. The F-35 is too expensive to lose and less likely will carry external payload. The FC-31 is affordable and will carry external payload being low RCS fighter when stealth is not required. 

No, you can't splash F-22 and F-35 from long range because they are stealth. Stealth fighter vs stealth fighter will involve visual range engagement & dogfight like clash of the iron clad using IR guided missiles, active radar missiles (if it could track) & guns.


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## Deino

Stealth said:


> Told you guys before... you will see the picture in Sept  LOL




What do you mean with "the picture"? This particular aircraft is not new, we know it already since some time and even if images are quite rare, it is nothing we needed to wait until September, since we already know it since late 2019.

Or do you expect the true J-35 prototype in September?

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## samsara

Stealth said:


> *Told you guys before*... you will see the picture in Sept  LOL


Where was your such post? just show us

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## _NOBODY_

@Deino @LKJ86 @IblinI How serious is PLAN about this supposed J-35 program?


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## LKJ86

_NOBODY_ said:


> @Deino @LKJ86 @IblinI How serious is PLAN about this supposed J-35 program?

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 667475
> View attachment 667476


Could you please translate for the non Chinese members here?

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## _NOBODY_

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 667475
> View attachment 667476


Translation please.


----------



## zhxy

The J-31 is a two-engine stealth aircraft
The J-35 could be the J-31 with a single engine
The J-10D is a stealth aircraft developed from the J-10

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

zhxy said:


> The J-31 is a two-engine stealth aircraft
> The J-35 could be the J-31 with a single engine
> The J-10D is a stealth aircraft developed from the J-10


Okay, now it seems like AVIC and the PLAAF/PLAN are just reading this forum and trolling us.

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## jaybird

Figaro said:


> Could you please translate for the non Chinese members here?



Rough translation:

This guy learn from his old classmate who works for Chengdu Aerospace Corporation during one of their dinner chat that CAC's J-20 as candidate for PLAN's 4th generation carrier borne figther is no longer an option. Supposedly his old classmate was kind of upset with the PLAN calling them bipolar disorder. He said the PLAN obviously loved twin engine heavy fighter,but at the same time felt J-20 is too heavy for them.

CAC/611 institute higher-ups went to the PLAN side to give their last effort trying to convince them to pick the J-20 around Sept-2018. There was still a little hope before the trip. But afterward that little hope/dream was completely shattered.

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## Figaro

jaybird said:


> Rough translation:
> 
> This guy learn from his old classmate who works for Chengdu Aerospace Corporation during one of their dinner chat that CAC's J-20 as candidate for PLAN's 4th generation carrier borne figther is no longer an option. Supposedly his old classmate was kind of upset with the PLAN calling them bipolar disorder. He said the PLAN obviously loved twin engine heavy fighter,but at the same time felt J-20 is too heavy for them.
> 
> CAC/611 institute higher-ups went to the PLAN side to give their last effort trying to convince them to pick the J-20 around Sept-2018. There was still a little hope before the trip. But afterward that little hope/dream was completely shattered.


Thank you very much. So this is the final nail in the coffin for the navalized J-20 then?

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## jaybird

Figaro said:


> Thank you very much. So this is the final nail in the coffin for the navalized J-20 then?



Only if the guy who said it was credible. I don't know anything about him. You have to ask LKJ86 about that. I only translate what he posted.

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## _NOBODY_

jaybird said:


> Rough translation:
> 
> This guy learn from his old classmate who works for Chengdu Aerospace Corporation during one of their dinner chat that CAC's J-20 as candidate for PLAN's 4th generation carrier borne figther is no longer an option. Supposedly his old classmate was kind of upset with the PLAN calling them bipolar disorder. He said the PLAN obviously loved twin engine heavy fighter,but at the same time felt J-20 is too heavy for them.
> 
> CAC/611 institute higher-ups went to the PLAN side to give their last effort trying to convince them to pick the J-20 around Sept-2018. There was still a little hope before the trip. But afterward that little hope/dream was completely shattered.


Chengdu's desperation for PLAN to select J-20 leads me to believe that there are no plans for Chengdu to build a new 5th gen fighter. This saddens me deeply.

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## Deino

zhxy said:


> The J-31 is a two-engine stealth aircraft
> The J-35 could be the J-31 with a single engine
> The J-10D is a stealth aircraft developed from the J-10




Nope ... there is so far no J-31 only two FC-31 demonstrators and the serials variant is most likely called J-35 as the carrierborne fighter again powered by two engines. China has at lesat not yet an engine powerful enough to replace two RD-93/WS-13.

Concerning the J-10D it is IMO more a dream-project, you cannot turn the J-10 into a true stealth aircraft.

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## Beast

Figaro said:


> A heavily upgraded WS-13 variant


WS-19


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## Deino

Beast said:


> WS-19




But don't you think this will be only the over-next variant? I cannot think that the WS-19 will be ready so soon.


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## ZeEa5KPul

Deino said:


> But don't you think this will be only the over-next variant? I cannot think that the WS-19 will be ready so soon.


I think it's less likely that the initial variant of SAC's stealth fighter will fly with WS-19s initially, but it's far from impossible. The WS-15 is already at the flight-testing stage, so it's reasonable to assume that the WS-19 is as well. It's quite probable that the engine is ready for testing along with the new airframe, with the WS-13 available as a fallback option.

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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> I think it's less likely that the initial variant of SAC's stealth fighter will fly with WS-19s initially, but it's far from impossible. The WS-15 is already at the flight-testing stage, so it's reasonable to assume that the WS-19 is as well. It's quite probable that the engine is ready for testing along with the new airframe, with the WS-13 available as a fallback option.


Actually the WS-19 is still years behind the WS-15 .... even if the pace of progress is faster than that of the 15 because it borrows alot of technology.

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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> Nope ... there is so far no J-31 only two FC-31 demonstrators and the serials variant is most likely called J-35 as the carrierborne fighter again powered by two engines. China has at lesat not yet an engine powerful enough to replace two RD-93/WS-13.
> 
> Concerning the J-10D it is IMO more a dream-project, you cannot turn the J-10 into a true stealth aircraft.



China should look into working with the Russians and Klimov to revive and jointly produce the project VK-10M project (a development of the RD-33 engine) originally planned in the early 2000s possibly intended for the Stealth MIG fighter. Thrust goals were 22,000-24,200 lb at full mil power. Two of these engines would put the J-35 in the class of the F/A-18E/F and F-35C in terms of thrust.

maybe the j-10 can’t be turned into a true stealth fighter, but maybe similar to the X-32 or the Saab FS-2020 design with a pelikan tail and internal weapons bays for a lower RCS at the initial stages of a conflict.

Two PL-10 and Four PL-15 Maybe all that is needed when you have the first shot first kill advantage





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images.app.goo.gl








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Google Image Result for https://i.stack.imgur.com/p7qXY.jpg






images.app.goo.gl








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images.app.goo.gl


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## Figaro

FuturePAF said:


> China should look into working with the Russians and Klimov to revive and jointly produce the project VK-10M project (a development of the RD-33 engine) originally planned in the early 2000s possibly intended for the Stealth MIG fighter. Thrust goals were 22,000-24,200 lb at full mil power. Two of these engines would put the J-35 in the class of the F/A-18E/F and F-35C in terms of thrust.


The WS-19 has around that same thrust and also has a T/W of 10 ... it is much more advanced than a upgraded RD-33 (which is already less advanced than the AL-31 family).

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## LKJ86

FuturePAF said:


> China should look into working with the Russians and Klimov to revive and jointly produce the project VK-10M project (a development of the RD-33 engine) originally planned in the early 2000s possibly intended for the Stealth MIG fighter.


Just forget it.
Times have changed.

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## FuturePAF

Figaro said:


> The WS-19 has around that same thrust and also has a T/W of 10 ... it is much more advanced than a upgraded RD-33 (which is already less advanced than the AL-31 family).





LKJ86 said:


> Just forget it.
> Times have changed.



Fair enough if the WS-19 progressing to outperform that proposed engine. Just an FYI of a project who’s research could be looked into for some insight.

glad to hear the WS-19 is using WS-15 technology to get there on its own (not sarcastic). I would like to see the Russians out of the JF-17 project as soon as possible.


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## Deino

Stealth said:


> Told you guys before... you will see the picture in Sept  LOL




Again since you did not reply! ... What do you mean with "the picture"? This particular aircraft is not new, we know it already since some time and even if images are quite rare, it is nothing we needed to wait until September, since we already know it since late 2019.

Or do you expect the true J-35 prototype in September?

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> Again since you did not reply! ... What do you mean with "the picture"? This particular aircraft is not new, we know it already since some time and even if images are quite rare, it is nothing we needed to wait until September, since we already know it since late 2019.
> 
> Or do you expect the true J-35 prototype in September?



I told this in some other thread in response to someone that “we would see any pic of the aircraft in 2021”. I have no idea about this is the actual final version or not. What I know is, the development is in the final stages.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Imran Khan said:


> WTH is PAF waiting for ?



Advance avionics.


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## Deino

Stealth said:


> I told this in some other thread in response to someone that “we would see any pic of the aircraft in 2021”. I have no idea about this is the actual final version or not. What I know is, the development is in the final stages.




But that's exactly my and other members' point; it is 100% for sure the same old prototype we know since years as V2. As such this particular aircraft and this image does not fit to your claim “we would see any pic of the aircraft in 2021” since this refers to the final version called J-35.

Anyway ... let's hope for 2021!


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## Stealth

Deino said:


> But that's exactly my and other members' point; it is 100% for sure the same old prototype we know since years as V2. As such this particular aircraft and this image does not fit to your claim “we would see any pic of the aircraft in 2021” since this refers to the final version called J-35.
> 
> Anyway ... let's hope for 2021!



Again I didn't say anywhere that this is a new prototype. I clearly stated "you guys will see the picture in Sept" I don't care whether its V2 or a V5. As far as I know, it's a new picture, and that's what I was talking about.

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## Deino

Stealth said:


> Again I didn't say anywhere that this is a new prototype. I clearly stated "you guys will see the picture in Sept" I don't care whether its V2 or a V5. As far as I know, it's a new picture, and that's what I was talking about.



Ok, if you don't care on the details as long it is a new image, then I see it as important to note, what i and others already noted. This is even more important since many others are otherwise confused and thing the one you meant with "you guys will see the picture in Sept" is most often read and understood by others as "you guys will see the picture *of the new type aka the J-35* in Sept".

Otherwise Your hint "you guys will see the picture in Sept" would be senseless if it is related to simply a new image of any type.

Best

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> Ok, if you don't care on the details as long it is a new image, then I see it as important to note, what i and others already noted. This is even more important since many others are otherwise confused and thing the one you meant with "you guys will see the picture in Sept" is most often read and understood by others as "you guys will see the picture *of the new type aka the J-35* in Sept".
> 
> Otherwise Your hint "you guys will see the picture in Sept" would be senseless if it is related to simply a new image of any type.
> 
> Best



Why would anyone posts a picture of old thingy?


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## Deino

Stealth said:


> Why would anyone posts a picture of old thingy?




Oh please !!! Why would anyone post an image of a J-8, H-6 or J-10? Simply since some of us are true collectors of new images, but that does not mean any new image shows something new.

Again, that particular aircraft is old, we know this one since late 2016 and everyone is expecting the new one ... aka the J-35.

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> Oh please !!! Why would anyone post an image of a J-8, H-6 or J-10? Simply since some of us are true collectors of new images, but that does not mean any new image shows something new.
> 
> Again, that particular aircraft is old, we know this one since late 2016 and everyone is expecting the new one ... aka the J-35.



lol comparing an aircraft that is under development and the pictures of the aircraft appears after some time whenever there are some new updates with those which are already existing from the last 2 decades...

An enthusiast, who is following FC-31 development since day one and he/she doesn't even know what will be the final output of the aircraft when the developer already presented the final version on different occasions. That's amazed me!

Now compare this with the LATEST PICTURE. You got the hint (which was completely wrong) from my words (which I don't even say) but never got a correct hint from the images lol

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## Stealth



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## Silicon0000

Deino said:


> But that's exactly my and other members' point; it is 100% for sure the same old prototype we know since years as V2. As such this particular aircraft and this image does not fit to your claim “we would see any pic of the aircraft in 2021” since this refers to the final version called J-35.
> 
> Anyway ... let's hope for 2021!



I think the guy made comments as a humor to someone. He never made a claim of what you thought. Why you always got serious?


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## Deino

Silicon0000 said:


> I think the guy made comments as a humor to someone. He never made a claim of what you thought. Why you always got serious?



Probably by nature... I'm a German.

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## Figaro

FuturePAF said:


> Fair enough if the WS-19 progressing to outperform that proposed engine. Just an FYI of a project who’s research could be looked into for some insight.
> 
> glad to hear the WS-19 is using WS-15 technology to get there on its own (not sarcastic). I would like to see the Russians out of the JF-17 project as soon as possible.


I think the main reason for the RD-33 engine still being in the JF-17 may be some hidden agreement between Pakistan-China-Russia. It is clear that the WS-13 is already a pretty advanced engine as it is powering the FC-31 so I think it might be that the Pakistanis and Chinese are supporting Klimov behind closed doors.

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## FuturePAF

Figaro said:


> I think the main reason for the RD-33 engine still being in the JF-17 may be some hidden agreement between Pakistan-China-Russia. It is clear that the WS-13 is already a pretty advanced engine as it is powering the FC-31 so I think it might be that the Pakistanis and Chinese are supporting Klimov behind closed doors.



Perhaps a fixed contract for a number of units and support for a number of years as an offset for something?

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## python-000

Stealth said:


> View attachment 668111


Stablish j-31 production facility in Pakistan with China just like we have JF-17 production facility...

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## PakAlp

python-000 said:


> Stablish j-31 production facility in Pakistan with China just like we have JF-17 production facility...



They will most likely, J31/J35 or J?? will be project AZM with Pakistani specs, Pakistan will take the next step from Jf17, Project Azm with chinese, Turkish, S Africa, Italy systems. It will be around 2028-2032 time.


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## Silicon0000

Deino said:


> Probably by nature... I'm a German.



For world things are either black or white but for Pakistanis it's black or white or many shades of grey in between


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## kungfugymnast

PakAlp said:


> They will most likely, J31/J35 or J?? will be project AZM with Pakistani specs, Pakistan will take the next step from Jf17, Project Azm with chinese, Turkish, S Africa, Italy systems. It will be around 2028-2032 time.



It is likely that FC-31 will be PAF next generation new fighters with at least 2 squadrons or more. China would take the research from the FC-31 testing for their new J-35 navalized fighter development programme. FC-31 is mainly for export market

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## Figaro

Via Hyperwarp 
Weapons bay of FC-31

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## python-000

Figaro said:


> Via Hyperwarp
> Weapons bay of FC-31
> View attachment 671582


China must start j-31v2 production as soon as possible...


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## Deino

python-000 said:


> China must start j-31v2 production as soon as possible...




No, it *MUST NOT!* They must finish development into a capable true stealth fighter, what seems to be underway with the J-35.

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## CIA Mole

Deino said:


> No, it *MUST NOT!* They must finish development into a capable true stealth fighter, what seems to be underway with the J-35.



this means same coating as j20?


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## python-000

I don't know why i think that J-31 will be much better fighter then J-20...


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## python-000

Deino said:


> No, it *MUST NOT!* They must finish development into a capable true stealth fighter, what seems to be underway with the J-35.


No, there is no time for it now j-31 come up on production because time is precious...


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## Figaro

python-000 said:


> I don't know why i think that J-31 will be much better fighter then J-20...


I can assure you this will not be the case


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## CIA Mole

Is China's next gen jet going to be better than or on par with F35/F22?


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## Figaro

CIA Mole said:


> Is China's next gen jet going to be better than or on par with F35/F22?


Why do you think the current J-20 is not on par with the F-35/F-22?


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## PeacefulWar

python-000 said:


> I don't know why i think that J-31 will be much better fighter then J-20...


Haha, maybe like me you just just don't like canards.
Canards don't come along with my personal aesthetic taste.


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## LKJ86

Via @牧是家 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 674708
> View attachment 674709
> 
> Via @牧是家 from Weibo




Must be older images since it still had the huge pitot


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Must be older images since it still had the huge pitot


According to @牧是家, they are latest ones.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> According to @牧是家, they are latest ones.
> View attachment 674810



Hmmm ?? But why then again with the huge pitot or does he men by latest only the latestly released!?


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## kungfugymnast

python-000 said:


> China must start j-31v2 production as soon as possible...



FC-31 for now is test module for their J-35 fighter. If there's investors pumping in capital for FC-31 meant for export market then its production would start sooner. It won't be hard for them to do so as the FC-31 design cue and wings angle are almost copied from F-35A + some F-22 for twin engines configuration. It would be nice if there's FC-31 sold to allies.


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## Gomig-21

New pics.

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## Deino

Gomig-21 said:


> New pics.




Unfortunately not, the first two images are from 17. May 2020, the third one from 23. May 2020 and the fourth was posted first on 22. May 2020.

Sorry.

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## Gomig-21

Deino said:


> Unfortunately not, the first two images are from 17. May 2020, the third one from 23. May 2020 and the fourth was posted first on 22. May 2020.
> 
> Sorry.



That's alright. I guess they're new for some of us that haven't seen them already.

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## Death_Angels

JIs the J-31 a good plane? How and when it goes into production compared to its Western competitors.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Gomig-21 said:


> New pics.



The tails are revised to be J-20 tails

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## FuturePAF

Gomig-21 said:


> New pics.



RD-93 Engines or WS-13?


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## Gomig-21

FuturePAF said:


> RD-93 Engines or WS-13?



I think these are the RD-93s according to the Russians who are supplying them. I don't think they're using the WS-13s on this like the JF-17, but I believe they'll eventually use the WS-13E which is supposedly a bit more powerful than the WS-13. But @Deino can correct me if I'm wrong.

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## juj06750

Gomig-21 said:


> I think these are the RD-93s according to the Russians who are supplying them. I don't think they're using the WS-13s on this like the JF-17, but I believe they'll eventually use the WS-13E which is supposedly a bit more powerful than the WS-13. But @Deino can correct me if I'm wrong.


it's still second prototype of J31 with russian engine RD93, which made its maiden flight on December 2016
note that J31 project is still pending; it could be dead project if none of orders


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## Beast

juj06750 said:


> it's still second prototype of J31 with russian engine RD93, which made its maiden flight on December 2016
> note that J31 project is still pending; it could be dead project if none of orders


The J-31 project is replaced with J-35, a naval carrier based stealth fighter approved by PLAN. The final out come may be only slight different this.

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## Figaro

Gomig-21 said:


> I think these are the RD-93s according to the Russians who are supplying them. I don't think they're using the WS-13s on this like the JF-17, but I believe they'll eventually use the WS-13E which is supposedly a bit more powerful than the WS-13. But @Deino can correct me if I'm wrong.


Those are WS-13Es, not RD-93s. The first aircraft the WS-13E was incorporated into was the 31003 FC-31 prototype in 2016.


juj06750 said:


> it's still second prototype of J31 with russian engine RD93, which made its maiden flight on December 2016
> note that J31 project is still pending; it could be dead project if none of orders


WS-13, not RD-93. Only 31001 (31002 was for static airframe tests) had RD-93s, which gave the smoky performance in at Zhuhai 2014.

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## kungfugymnast

Gomig-21 said:


> That's alright. I guess they're new for some of us that haven't seen them already.



You're right coz some of us haven't seen these photos yet, thanks for posting. The notable changes spotted on the radome, canopy, fuselage area before air intakes, flatter rear top, wings and tail fins look different from prototypes.


Death_Angels said:


> JIs the J-31 a good plane? How and when it goes into production compared to its Western competitors.



FC-31 is surely more affordable and lower maintenance compared to F-35 and European fighters. Best thing is the FC-31 stealth and with its price, users won't hesitate to load external payloads compared to F-35 that is too precious to do so to risk flying under low RCS forgoing stealth. It will go into production for export market limited to allies.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> You're right coz some of us haven't seen these photos yet, thanks for posting. The notable changes spotted on the radome, canopy, fuselage area before air intakes, flatter rear top, wings and tail fins look different from prototypes.




Again you are wrong and as it seems only for the reason to contradict my reply: There si nothing new, it is exactly the same prototype - in fact second demonstrator no. 31003 - we know since years. Also these images were posted long ago and the fact that you are either too lazy or too dumb to check does not make them new not do they add any "notable changes spotted on the radome, canopy, fuselage area before air intakes, flatter rear top, wings and tail fins"!

Again, take this as a warning: STOP with this constant posting of false stuff, faked news and simply wrong BS.


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## juj06750

Beast said:


> The J-31 project is replaced with J-35, a naval carrier based stealth fighter approved by PLAN. The final out come may be only slight different this.


be await; let us see how J31/J35 project would go; it still can be dead project


Figaro said:


> Those are WS-13Es, not RD-93s. The first aircraft the WS-13E was incorporated into was the 31003 FC-31 prototype in 2016. WS-13, not RD-93. Only 31001 (31002 was for static airframe tests) had RD-93s, which gave the smoky performance in at Zhuhai 2014.


oh sorry then


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## CIA Mole

production of both j31 and j20 should meet minimal requirements till better engines come online.

Unless they can be fitted with new engines and the old engines used on other jets?


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## Deino

CIA Mole said:


> production of both j31 and j20 should meet minimal requirements till better engines come online.
> 
> Unless they can be fitted with new engines and the old engines used on other jets?




Nope ... J-20 is in production since 2019 now in a slightly uprated/updated version using new engines aka the WS-10C.
And for the FC-31 I still don't understand why some don't seem to understand:

- there is no J-31
- the two known aircraft no. 31001 & 31003 are demonstrators for a promoted production variant
- this production variant is almost confirmed as the J-35 - in fact we are only waiting for it to be unveiled - as the PLAN's future carrier borne fighter
- it will use WS-13 engines as an interim (similar to the AL-31FN in the first batch J-20s) until the WS-19 becomes available.

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## CIA Mole

Deino said:


> Nope ... J-20 is in production since 2019 now in a slightly uprated/updated version using new engines aka the WS-10C.
> And for the FC-31 I still don't understand why some don't seem to understand:
> 
> - there is no J-31
> - the two known aircraft no. 31001 & 31003 are demonstrators for a promoted production variant
> - this production variant is almost confirmed as the J-35 - in fact we are only waiting for it to be unveiled - as the PLAN's future carrier borne fighter
> - it will use WS-13 engines as an interim (similar to the AL-31FN in the first batch J-20s) until the WS-19 becomes available.



Can WS-13 based planes be updated? or will they maybe be sold to Pakistan?


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## Deino

CIA Mole said:


> Can WS-13 based planes be updated? or will they maybe be sold to Pakistan?




I think this is too premature to tell ... if Pakistan will buy the J-35 or a land-based derivate depends on so many factors like first of all what Pakistan wants, what it can afford and if China is willing to deliver under these conditions?

Otherwise I don't think so, changing the RD-93 with WS-13 might be possible like changing AL-31 with WS-10, but I'm quite sure there will be more changes to the airframe esp. intake by adding a much more powerful engine and both si for the WS-15 and WS-19.

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## python-000

???


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## Deino

python-000 said:


> ???




Pardon, what is your question?


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## python-000

Deino said:


> Pardon, what is your question?


Hmmm, my point is whats going on behind the scene there is so much silent on J-31 thread any news or updates...


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## Deino

Maybe the calm before the storm?


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## samsara

python-000 said:


> Hmmm, my point is whats going on behind the scene there is so much silent on J-31 thread any news or updates...


It's hinted at following relatively comprehensive article carried by the GLOBAL TIMES (2020-11-02) after the release of China's *14th Five-Year Plan (2021-2025)*. It just does not come out to the surface, thus no publicly available info but the works should be moving on steadily. Well, not everything military should come to the surface, esp. in China's case  Just like the recent case of KJ-600, suddenly popped out some significant hint. For me, in that case, just awaiting patiently knowing the nature of the revelation...

*China to modernize military, arsenal in next 5 years*








Chinese Navy (PLAN) News & Discussions


Probably someone has already expected, according to famous military insider, pop3 or whatever name, PLAN will build huge amount of warships in the coming decade, much more than now.



defence.pk





_"A type of aircraft carrier-based stealth fighter jet, rumored to be developed based on China's second type of stealth fighter jet the FC-31, could also make its debut in the coming years, along with the aircraft carrier-based early warning aircraft [AWACS] the KJ-600, observers said."_

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## Clutch

*Why Does China's J-31 Stealth Fighter Look Like the F-35?*






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November 5, 2020 Topic: Security Region: Asia Blog Brand: The Reboot Tags: ChinaJ-31F-35Stealth FighterCyber TheftIP Theft
Chinese cyber attacks have resulted in the theft of significant specs and technical details of a range of U.S. weapons systems—including the F-35. 

Chinese media reports are now referencing new photos of the emerging J-31 5th-Gen stealth fighter appearing on social media, ostensibly showing various design improvements to the new radar-evading multi-role aircraft. 

A May 5th report in the Global Times, an English Language Chinese newspaper, says the new photos show an …. “upgraded version with modifications made to its aerodynamic design just like the prototype that made its maiden flight in 2016, instead of the original version that made its public debut at Airshow China in 2014.” 

Improvements or changes to the J-31 likely continue a long-standing pattern of China’s apparent and somewhat visible effort to copy, steal or mirror designs used for the U.S. F-35. Virtually all photos and renderings of the J-31, since first unveiled, revealed a striking resemblance to the U.S. F-35. This does not come to the surprise of many in the U.S., given China’s well-known and documented cyber espionage efforts. A 2014 “U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission” Congressional report specifically cites a Defense Science Board finding that Chinese cyber attacks resulted in the theft of significant specs and technical details of a range of U.S. weapons systems—including the F-35. 

At the same time, a 2018 Pentagon news story about DoD’s annual China report mentions that apparent similarities between the F-35 and Chinese J-20 could very well be a result of espionage. A cursory look at the J-20 does appear to show some resemblance to the F-35, particularly the blended wing-body front end and internally built, conformal exhaust pipes. These similarities do appear, despite the apparent differences, as the J-20 has a wider and longer lower-body. However, available photos show an even larger measure of similarity between the F-35 and Chinese J-31 multi-role fighter. 

As recently as last year, another Global Times report said the J-31 showed design improvements at the 2019 Paris Air Show. Photos from the story reveal profound visual similarities between the F-35 and J-31. This is not without precedent, as the Chinese media itself has noted similarities between the two aircraft. Portions of a story from the Chinese government’s “People’s Daily Online” as far back as 2013 specifically cites design similarity between the emerging Chinese J-31 and the F-35, writing that the “J-31 and F-35 use the same DSI inlet (non-boundary layer-separated lane supersonic inlet).” The only major difference, the paper notes, is that the U.S. has an F-35B Short Take Off and Landing variant and that the J-31 uses two engines compared to the F-35’s single engine propulsion configuration.

The article’s reference to a “non-boundary layer separated lane supersonic inlet” appears both interesting and significant, as it pertains to designs engineered to manage heat and air movement signatures demonstrated by the aerodynamic phenomenon of air flow surrounding supersonic flight. “Boundary layer” aerodynamics, referring to the air flow surrounding a weapon or platform as it transits, can greatly impact the flight stability and stealth characteristics of an aircraft. 

A pertinent comparison can be found in the Air Force Research Laboratories’ current work on “boundary layer phenomenology” related to next-generation hypersonic weapons. Senior Air Force science and technology leaders and weapons developers told me at the Air Force Association symposium in 2019 that “boundary layer phenomenology” was figuring prominently in ongoing research and development regarding future weapons and platforms. Managing heat flow and temperature is, of course, vital to maintaining flight stability for hypersonic weapons traveling at speeds up to five-times the speed of sound. Developers seek to engineer configurations which will generate a “laminar” or smooth airflow as opposed to “turbulent” boundary layer to enable a weapon to sustain an accurate trajectory and manage excessive heat.

Therefore, by extension, it seems apparent the same aerodynamic principles apply to stealth aircraft configurations which seek to manage the heat signatures and turbulence potentially generated in the air flow boundary layers of stealth jets flying at supersonic speeds. Accordingly, a “non-boundary layer separated lane” for airflow, (as cited by the article) which does not break up or radically change airflow trajectory, could not only ensure smoother flight at high speeds but also help manage temperature. Of course, there would be significant differences between the thermal management technical engineering needed for hypersonics and stealth aircraft, yet smother wing-body melded external designs, absent hard or protruding edges, clearly bring the added advantage of a smoother and cooler air flow boundary layer. Along these lines, the 2019 Global Times report details a few design changes to the 2019 J-31 which, according to the photographs, show a smoother, less-jagged exterior behind the cockpit as opposed to earlier models.


The Chinese newspaper stops short of exploring a fully-detailed discussion of aerodynamic designs related to the aircraft, but does cite a Chinese Air Force test pilot expert as saying “the J-31’s stealth aerodynamic design, stealth engine design and stealth coating design have all reached internationally advanced standards in stealth technology.” (China’s Air Force test pilot expert Xu Yongling.)

However, external configuration and some elements of visible heat-signature management represent merely a few of many characteristics when it comes to stealth technology; stealth designs also often incorporate internally-built engines, radar absorbent coating materials and internal weapons bays, among other things. Along these lines, the People’s Daily Online report makes the claim that the J-31 has a superior weapons payload capability compared with the F-35. However, available specs report that the J-31 travels with six external weapons hardpoints… the same number as the F-35. 

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As for how the J-31 may be employed, Chinese and U.S. newspapers are filled with various kinds of speculation; some reports say the fighter is intended for export as a way to counter the reach and scope of the F-35, however other reports cite Chinese officials saying the J-31 is intended for domestic use and possibly could even fly off of Chinese aircraft carriers. 

Chinese’ progress with the J-31 calls to mind several timely strategic calculations. A more recent Congressional report, the 2018 U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission, makes specific reference to concern regarding China’s expansionist aims when it comes to projecting air, land and sea power. The text of the review points to dramatic upticks in “long-distance over-water training” exercises over new areas in recent years which, the study goes on to suggest, improves the PLA Air Force’s capability to gather intelligence and “execute maritime missions against the U.S.”


“In November and December 2017, China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force conducted at least nine long-distance training flights over maritime areas along China’s periphery, continuing a trend that began in 2015,” stated the 2018 U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission.

All of this pertains to the often and widely discussed recognition that China has long-since past its ambitions to operate as a dominant regional power and migrated aggressively toward positioning itself as a massive, leading global power.


_Kris Osborn is the new Defense Editor for the National Interest. _

Reactions: Angry Angry:
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## CAPRICORN-88

"the J-31, since first unveiled, revealed a striking resemblance to the U.S. F-35." 
????
Make me wonder, does prejudice really turn all these activists turn journalists blind?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Figaro

Clutch said:


> *Why Does China's J-31 Stealth Fighter Look Like the F-35?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Share on FacebookF
> Share on TwitterL
> Share on LinkedInI
> Subscribe to RSSR
> Print
> November 5, 2020 Topic: Security Region: Asia Blog Brand: The Reboot Tags: ChinaJ-31F-35Stealth FighterCyber TheftIP Theft
> Chinese cyber attacks have resulted in the theft of significant specs and technical details of a range of U.S. weapons systems—including the F-35.
> 
> Chinese media reports are now referencing new photos of the emerging J-31 5th-Gen stealth fighter appearing on social media, ostensibly showing various design improvements to the new radar-evading multi-role aircraft.
> 
> A May 5th report in the Global Times, an English Language Chinese newspaper, says the new photos show an …. “upgraded version with modifications made to its aerodynamic design just like the prototype that made its maiden flight in 2016, instead of the original version that made its public debut at Airshow China in 2014.”
> 
> Improvements or changes to the J-31 likely continue a long-standing pattern of China’s apparent and somewhat visible effort to copy, steal or mirror designs used for the U.S. F-35. Virtually all photos and renderings of the J-31, since first unveiled, revealed a striking resemblance to the U.S. F-35. This does not come to the surprise of many in the U.S., given China’s well-known and documented cyber espionage efforts. A 2014 “U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission” Congressional report specifically cites a Defense Science Board finding that Chinese cyber attacks resulted in the theft of significant specs and technical details of a range of U.S. weapons systems—including the F-35.
> 
> At the same time, a 2018 Pentagon news story about DoD’s annual China report mentions that apparent similarities between the F-35 and Chinese J-20 could very well be a result of espionage. A cursory look at the J-20 does appear to show some resemblance to the F-35, particularly the blended wing-body front end and internally built, conformal exhaust pipes. These similarities do appear, despite the apparent differences, as the J-20 has a wider and longer lower-body. However, available photos show an even larger measure of similarity between the F-35 and Chinese J-31 multi-role fighter.
> 
> As recently as last year, another Global Times report said the J-31 showed design improvements at the 2019 Paris Air Show. Photos from the story reveal profound visual similarities between the F-35 and J-31. This is not without precedent, as the Chinese media itself has noted similarities between the two aircraft. Portions of a story from the Chinese government’s “People’s Daily Online” as far back as 2013 specifically cites design similarity between the emerging Chinese J-31 and the F-35, writing that the “J-31 and F-35 use the same DSI inlet (non-boundary layer-separated lane supersonic inlet).” The only major difference, the paper notes, is that the U.S. has an F-35B Short Take Off and Landing variant and that the J-31 uses two engines compared to the F-35’s single engine propulsion configuration.
> 
> The article’s reference to a “non-boundary layer separated lane supersonic inlet” appears both interesting and significant, as it pertains to designs engineered to manage heat and air movement signatures demonstrated by the aerodynamic phenomenon of air flow surrounding supersonic flight. “Boundary layer” aerodynamics, referring to the air flow surrounding a weapon or platform as it transits, can greatly impact the flight stability and stealth characteristics of an aircraft.
> 
> A pertinent comparison can be found in the Air Force Research Laboratories’ current work on “boundary layer phenomenology” related to next-generation hypersonic weapons. Senior Air Force science and technology leaders and weapons developers told me at the Air Force Association symposium in 2019 that “boundary layer phenomenology” was figuring prominently in ongoing research and development regarding future weapons and platforms. Managing heat flow and temperature is, of course, vital to maintaining flight stability for hypersonic weapons traveling at speeds up to five-times the speed of sound. Developers seek to engineer configurations which will generate a “laminar” or smooth airflow as opposed to “turbulent” boundary layer to enable a weapon to sustain an accurate trajectory and manage excessive heat.
> 
> Therefore, by extension, it seems apparent the same aerodynamic principles apply to stealth aircraft configurations which seek to manage the heat signatures and turbulence potentially generated in the air flow boundary layers of stealth jets flying at supersonic speeds. Accordingly, a “non-boundary layer separated lane” for airflow, (as cited by the article) which does not break up or radically change airflow trajectory, could not only ensure smoother flight at high speeds but also help manage temperature. Of course, there would be significant differences between the thermal management technical engineering needed for hypersonics and stealth aircraft, yet smother wing-body melded external designs, absent hard or protruding edges, clearly bring the added advantage of a smoother and cooler air flow boundary layer. Along these lines, the 2019 Global Times report details a few design changes to the 2019 J-31 which, according to the photographs, show a smoother, less-jagged exterior behind the cockpit as opposed to earlier models.
> 
> 
> The Chinese newspaper stops short of exploring a fully-detailed discussion of aerodynamic designs related to the aircraft, but does cite a Chinese Air Force test pilot expert as saying “the J-31’s stealth aerodynamic design, stealth engine design and stealth coating design have all reached internationally advanced standards in stealth technology.” (China’s Air Force test pilot expert Xu Yongling.)
> 
> However, external configuration and some elements of visible heat-signature management represent merely a few of many characteristics when it comes to stealth technology; stealth designs also often incorporate internally-built engines, radar absorbent coating materials and internal weapons bays, among other things. Along these lines, the People’s Daily Online report makes the claim that the J-31 has a superior weapons payload capability compared with the F-35. However, available specs report that the J-31 travels with six external weapons hardpoints… the same number as the F-35.
> 
> SPONSORED CONTENT
> 
> 
> 
> [Photos] This Is What The "Perfect" Female Body Looked Like 100 Years Ago (and every decade since)Mind Your Dollars
> 
> As for how the J-31 may be employed, Chinese and U.S. newspapers are filled with various kinds of speculation; some reports say the fighter is intended for export as a way to counter the reach and scope of the F-35, however other reports cite Chinese officials saying the J-31 is intended for domestic use and possibly could even fly off of Chinese aircraft carriers.
> 
> Chinese’ progress with the J-31 calls to mind several timely strategic calculations. A more recent Congressional report, the 2018 U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission, makes specific reference to concern regarding China’s expansionist aims when it comes to projecting air, land and sea power. The text of the review points to dramatic upticks in “long-distance over-water training” exercises over new areas in recent years which, the study goes on to suggest, improves the PLA Air Force’s capability to gather intelligence and “execute maritime missions against the U.S.”
> 
> 
> “In November and December 2017, China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force conducted at least nine long-distance training flights over maritime areas along China’s periphery, continuing a trend that began in 2015,” stated the 2018 U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission.
> 
> All of this pertains to the often and widely discussed recognition that China has long-since past its ambitions to operate as a dominant regional power and migrated aggressively toward positioning itself as a massive, leading global power.
> 
> 
> _Kris Osborn is the new Defense Editor for the National Interest. _


Why are you posting so much stuff from a junk publication? Everything listed in the article is already known and honestly is quite lazily written. I think this is the third National Interest Article I've seen you post today.

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## python-000

Any new updates...!!!


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## Silicon0000

No :-(


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## samsara

Good way to bump a thread  lol

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## Ali_Baba

That is what i am thinking !!!

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## JSCh

9谢艺航6​今天 20:31 来自 iPhone客户端​准备迎接2021～希望一切顺利！​
*9 Xie Yihang 6*
Today at 20:31 from the iPhone client

Ready for 2021~ Hope everything goes well!

Reactions: Like Like:
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5 | Wow Wow:
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## vi-va

JSCh said:


> 9谢艺航6​今天 20:31 来自 iPhone客户端​准备迎接2021～希望一切顺利！​
> *9 Xie Yihang 6*
> Today at 20:31 from the iPhone client
> 
> Ready for 2021~ Hope everything goes well!
> 
> View attachment 701908​


@Deino

Reactions: Love Love:
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## BON PLAN

JSCh said:


> 9谢艺航6​今天 20:31 来自 iPhone客户端​准备迎接2021～希望一切顺利！​
> *9 Xie Yihang 6*
> Today at 20:31 from the iPhone client
> 
> Ready for 2021~ Hope everything goes well!
> 
> View attachment 701908​


A F35, in better !

Reactions: Like Like:
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## waja2000

JSCh said:


> 9谢艺航6​今天 20:31 来自 iPhone客户端​准备迎接2021～希望一切顺利！​
> *9 Xie Yihang 6*
> Today at 20:31 from the iPhone client
> 
> Ready for 2021~ Hope everything goes well!
> 
> View attachment 701908​



J-31 need 2 seater for Navy fighter ?


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## Death_Angels

J-31 Is it better than the j-20?


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## White and Green with M/S

Death_Angels said:


> J-31 Is it better than the j-20?


Na J-20 is better

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## Ali_Baba

J- 20 is an operational mature 5-th Generation stealth fighter. J-31 is at best, a technology demonstrator as of now.

PAF likes to go for mature systems if buying off the shelf, I dont think PAF is interested in a development programme that the J-31/35 would need, to make it to front line operational service.

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## python-000

JSCh said:


> 9谢艺航6​今天 20:31 来自 iPhone客户端​准备迎接2021～希望一切顺利！​
> *9 Xie Yihang 6*
> Today at 20:31 from the iPhone client
> 
> Ready for 2021~ Hope everything goes well!
> 
> View attachment 701908​


I love J-31 hope China & Pakistan jointly produce this beauty & the beast fighter...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Figaro

Ali_Baba said:


> J- 20 is an operational mature 5-th Generation stealth fighter. J-31 is at best, a technology demonstrator as of now.
> 
> PAF likes to go for mature systems if buying off the shelf, I dont think PAF is interested in a development programme that the J-31/35 would need, to make it to front line operational service.


The J-31 program is practically dead but the J-35 program, which branched off the J-31 program, is in full swing. Most likely, it is going to be the PLAN's 5th generation carrier borne fighter, so not a bad candidate for the PAF at all. The J-35 is actually considerably more suitable for the PAF than the J-20 because the latter was designed to operate in long ranges across the Western Pacific, which is something Pakistan does not need to consider.

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## kungfugymnast

Figaro said:


> The J-31 program is practically dead but the J-35 program, which branched off the J-31 program, is in full swing. Most likely, it is going to be the PLAN's 5th generation carrier borne fighter, so not a bad candidate for the PAF at all. The J-35 is actually considerably more suitable for the PAF than the J-20 because the latter was designed to operate in long ranges across the Western Pacific, which is something Pakistan does not need to consider.



FC-31 is not really dead and is still in development ready for export market and also to serve as testbed before designing the J-35 for PLAN.


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## CIA Mole

So J31 is like China's JSF?


----------



## kungfugymnast

Ali_Baba said:


> J- 20 is an operational mature 5-th Generation stealth fighter. J-31 is at best, a technology demonstrator as of now.
> 
> PAF likes to go for mature systems if buying off the shelf, I dont think PAF is interested in a development programme that the J-31/35 would need, to make it to front line operational service.



With rising threat from IAF that is in good terms with US, PAF is waiting for completed FC-31 for evaluation before deciding to purchase probably in small numbers


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## serenity

kungfugymnast said:


> FC-31 is not really dead and is still in development ready for export market and also to serve as testbed before designing the J-35 for PLAN.



FC-31 was never real offer for export. It was revealed to public so anyone with interest might come for talks to see if there is chance to develop it. J-20 never fly airshow in prototype form because PLAAF already decided on it. Only fly in military parade and airshow first time after PLAAF had J-20 for number of years only with short showing.

FC-31 is basically now finished like Figaro said where the project is taken by PLAN. No one knows if it can be offered for export soon. Definitely if it can be sold will be many years after PLAN receive them. If a customer is interested in developing their version from FC-31 or J-35, it will cost them so much money.


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## kungfugymnast

waja2000 said:


> J-31 need 2 seater for Navy fighter ?



J-35 might have 2 seater. FC-31 will remain single seater like F-35, too small and no point having 2 seater, using expensive stealth fighter as trainer doesn't worth it neither.


JSCh said:


> 9谢艺航6​今天 20:31 来自 iPhone客户端​准备迎接2021～希望一切顺利！​
> *9 Xie Yihang 6*
> Today at 20:31 from the iPhone client
> 
> Ready for 2021~ Hope everything goes well!
> 
> View attachment 701908​



The nose radome area looks small to fit large AESA radar, most likely it will be fitted with medium range radar and mostly for export market


----------



## kungfugymnast

serenity said:


> FC-31 was never real offer for export. It was revealed to public so anyone with interest might come for talks to see if there is chance to develop it. J-20 never fly airshow in prototype form because PLAAF already decided on it. Only fly in military parade and airshow first time after PLAAF had J-20 for number of years only with short showing.
> 
> FC-31 is basically now finished like Figaro said where the project is taken by PLAN. No one knows if it can be offered for export soon. Definitely if it can be sold will be many years after PLAN receive them. If a customer is interested in developing their version from FC-31 or J-35, it will cost them so much money.



PLAN should receive different navalized J-35 that might look like FC-31 or different fighter design with new research finding obtained from test bed FC-31. PLAN probably wanted something better than FC-31. Besides selling few FC-31 to PAF could allow China to assess its capability against IAF that has french made Rafale and coming soon US made F/A-18E that is on ski ramp take off trial bound to operate from Vikram aircraft carrier.


----------



## BON PLAN

Figaro said:


> The J-31 program is practically dead but the J-35 program, which branched off the J-31 program, is in full swing. Most likely, it is going to be the PLAN's 5th generation carrier borne fighter, so not a bad candidate for the PAF at all. The J-35 is actually considerably more suitable for the PAF than the J-20 because the latter was designed to operate in long ranges across the Western Pacific, which is something Pakistan does not need to consider.


The J35 is similar in shape to J31? any pic?


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## kungfugymnast

BON PLAN said:


> The J35 is similar in shape to J31? any pic?



No 1 can provide answer for this. J-35 could be totally different aircraft as FC-31 doesn't seem to meet PLAN carrier based stealth fighter criteria. The small radome means it has only medium range radar, not ideal for fleet defender. F-35 and F/A-18E/F have large long range AESA radar.


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## LKJ86

Via @牧是家 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 703594
> 
> Via @牧是家 from Weibo





In fact an old image posted on 2. August 2020

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## 52051

SAC's stock price in A-Share market grow significantly recently, not sure if the investors get some inside news of FC-31 or they just bet on the rumors around internet for a while.


Some updates:
Most recent rumors about this fighter is the one about to take maiden flight is somewhat "white-coated", not sure it is the coat or just the light of snow effects (The temperature in Shenyang is about -20 degree C now and I suppose there will be some snow there).

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## Deino

52051 said:


> SAC's stock price in A-Share market grow significantly recently, not sure if the investors get some inside news of FC-31 or they just bet on the rumors around internet for a while.
> 
> 
> Some updates:
> Most recent rumors about this fighter is the one about to take maiden flight is somewhat "white-coated", not sure it is the coat or just the light of snow effects (The temperature in Shenyang is about -20 degree C now and I suppose there will be some snow there).
> 
> View attachment 703768




Just as you mention these low temperatures ad i remember the Batch 03 J-15 in the J-15 thread in snow, but won't it be wiser to wait until lets say March and warmer weather for the maiden flight?


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## ariez168

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355834059969110023


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## Deino

ariez168 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355834059969110023




I don't want to wait anymore


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## The Eagle

ariez168 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355834059969110023



I suspect the lost translation in few specs. For example Maximum Takeoff weight, machine high or The Captain and couple of more.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> J- 20 is an operational mature 5-th Generation stealth fighter. J-31 is at best, a technology demonstrator as of now.
> 
> PAF likes to go for mature systems if buying off the shelf, I dont think PAF is interested in a development programme that the J-31/35 would need, to make it to front line operational service.


look at it this way
if PAF joins J31 it may get gain not only the technical experience required for developing a fifth gen jet but may get an excellent interim solution till its own azm is available in 2035+ time line

if acquired in 70-100 numbers in next 10-15 yrs, may also be an export success 

so if JV option is available PAF should take the risk rather then going for j10

the engine rd93ma can be used in both block 3 and j31


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMHO the J-35 will likely remain a PLA-only program because it's technically a niche fighter (carrier-specific design) and will likely house sensitive PLA-only tech.

Thus, I don't think the FC-31 is dead. Rather, China is in a unique position to fully cater to the non-ITAR NGFA market. I think the FC-31 will live on, but will return after SAC and the PLAN freeze the J-35 design.

Some elements of the J-35 could make their way to the FC-31 and, in turn, SAC will raise a separate production line once they secure a big launch customer.

The only other alternative that I can think of is that FC-31 is truly dead, but the Chinese are working on the next export-focused NGFA via Project AZM. So, the work from FC-31 could end up in AZM, but via a different design/platform.

@Deino @Figaro

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## python-000

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMHO the J-35 will likely remain a PLA-only program because it's technically a niche fighter (carrier-specific design) and will likely house sensitive PLA-only tech.
> 
> Thus, I don't think the FC-31 is dead. Rather, China is in a unique position to fully cater to the non-ITAR NGFA market. I think the FC-31 will live on, but will return after SAC and the PLAN freeze the J-35 design.
> 
> Some elements of the J-35 could make their way to the FC-31 and, in turn, SAC will raise a separate production line once they secure a big launch customer.
> 
> The only other alternative that I can think of is that FC-31 is truly dead, but the Chinese are working on the next export-focused NGFA via Project AZM. So, the work from FC-31 could end up in AZM, but via a different design/platform.
> 
> @Deino @Figaro


I think j-31/j-35 chapter is closed & it will never enter into production & we never get them...


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## White and Green with M/S

python-000 said:


> I think j-31/j-35 chapter is closed & it will never enter into production & we never get them...


As per various senior and professional Chinese members here on PDF J-35 is derive from earlier J-31 project and first flight of J-35 will be in this year, PLAN need the carrier based stealth jets


----------



## kungfugymnast

ziaulislam said:


> look at it this way
> if PAF joins J31 it may get gain not only the technical experience required for developing a fifth gen jet but may get an excellent interim solution till its own azm is available in 2035+ time line
> 
> if acquired in 70-100 numbers in next 10-15 yrs, may also be an export success
> 
> so if JV option is available PAF should take the risk rather then going for j10
> 
> the engine rd93ma can be used in both block 3 and j31



FC-31 production variant will be powered by WS-13 and later variant WS-19. PAF will wait for FC-31 before deciding to buy this or J-10CE. Although PAF has policy for only single engine fighter, if FC-31 is good, PAF will allow special exemption especially if the WS-13 could be shared with newer block JF-17. If budget is tight, PAF will buy in small numbers to counter threat from IAF. 

J-10CE is being considered for its air to ground capabilities more than air to air, buying it is less practical in terms if maintenance wise due to WS-10 engine that PAF would require to buy more separate parts just for J-10CE. FC-31 is still the better choice.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMHO the J-35 will likely remain a PLA-only program because it's technically a niche fighter (carrier-specific design) and will likely house sensitive PLA-only tech.
> 
> Thus, I don't think the FC-31 is dead. Rather, China is in a unique position to fully cater to the non-ITAR NGFA market. I think the FC-31 will live on, but will return after SAC and the PLAN freeze the J-35 design.
> 
> Some elements of the J-35 could make their way to the FC-31 and, in turn, SAC will raise a separate production line once they secure a big launch customer.
> 
> The only other alternative that I can think of is that FC-31 is truly dead, but the Chinese are working on the next export-focused NGFA via Project AZM. So, the work from FC-31 could end up in AZM, but via a different design/platform.
> 
> @Deino @Figaro



FC-31 will stay as last resort for ally country should they get into war up against superior country with stealth fighters. China needed an export variant stealth fighter to get tested and combat proven as it can't risk to sell classified J-20 or upcoming naval fighter J-35. Besides, FC-31 is testbed for R&D of navalized J-35 fighter therefore development of both fighters will go on.

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## ACE OF HEARTS

kungfugymnast said:


> FC-31 production variant will be powered by WS-13 and later variant WS-19. PAF will wait for FC-31 before deciding to buy this or J-10CE. Although PAF has policy for only single engine fighter, if FC-31 is good, PAF will allow special exemption especially if the WS-13 could be shared with newer block JF-17. If budget is tight, PAF will buy in small numbers to counter threat from IAF.
> 
> J-10CE is being considered for its air to ground capabilities more than air to air, buying it is less practical in terms if maintenance wise due to WS-10 engine that PAF would require to buy more separate parts just for J-10CE. FC-31 is still the better choice.
> 
> 
> FC-31 will stay as last resort for ally country should they get into war up against superior country with stealth fighters. China needed an export variant stealth fighter to get tested and combat proven as it can't risk to sell classified J-20 or upcoming naval fighter J-35. Besides, FC-31 is testbed for R&D of navalized J-35 fighter therefore development of both fighters will go on.


1. What is estimated cost of FC 31 vs J 10 CE? Per hour cost of flying? 

2. What is approximate MTBO of WS 13 and WS 19 and when is it going to be production ready?


----------



## kungfugymnast

ACE OF HEARTS said:


> 1. What is estimated cost of FC 31 vs J 10 CE? Per hour cost of flying?
> 
> 2. What is approximate MTBO of WS 13 and WS 19 and when is it going to be production ready?



Your cost of flying is it the fuel usage? Based on Jane's specifications, the Mig-29S with RD33 fuel consumption is somewhere close to F/A-18C. Since China fighters J-10 is not sold to other neutral country and China does not disclose fuel usage to public, we can only take F/A-18C vs F-16C fuel consumption comparison to estimate FC-31 vs J-10CE fuel consumption difference. F/A-18C/D equivalent to RD-33 & WS-13, more powerful WS19 can be around F/A-18E/F fuel consumption. 

Difference margin between FC-31 on 2 fuel efficient medium engines vs J-10CE on 1 large powerful engine won't be that much apart, around 1-2lb per second of fuel on dry thrust. Still more fuel efficient than F-14, F-15, Su-27. 

#2 no idea on this, like all fans here waiting for news from Shenyang

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## Deino

IMO only 31003!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1367503887205285894

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## Polestar 2

With korean KFX going to debut. I hope FC-31 V2 with domestic engine can compete against it for export matket


----------



## Akasa

PLAAF might have its own version of the FC-31 with first flight expected by late 2021.
The J-XY might fly by the end of 2022.



> “目前，强度所型号研制工作已全面铺开，克服沈阳疫情影响圆满完成某型号试验机运输工作，共振团队高效优质完成21号工程地面振动模态试验，ARJ21-700全机疲劳试验有序推进……新春伊始，捷报频传。 ”
> 年初已经运到阎良了，坐等首飞
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 21号工程，有点意思



Source: https://weibo.com/7340233926/K9wNxg8BX

Also from Huitong:


> First flight is expected to be in 2022...a dedicated variant (*J-21*?) is being developed for PLAAF without arresting hook and folded wings. First flight is speculated to be by the end of this year.


----------



## Death_Angels

J-21 what?


----------



## Deino

Akasa said:


> PLAAF might have its own version of the FC-31 with first flight expected by late 2021.
> The J-XY might fly by the end of 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://weibo.com/7340233926/K9wNxg8BX
> 
> Also from Huitong:




But how reliable is @ 柳絮纷飞竟不是雪 ? ... and if true it would mean, that PLAAF variant could fly even before the PLAN NA J-35?

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## Deino

PS: ... by the way maybe someone can contact SAC; if if they want to achieve a major PR-stunt, they shall make a roll-out on April 8th one day before the South Korean KFX will be unveiled on Friday.


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## UKBengali

China needs to hurry up and have this plane ready for export by 2025 with its own domestic engine.

It would generate hundreds of sales to developing countries in the first few years. No idea why China is not making this project a little more urgent.


----------



## Indos

UKBengali said:


> China needs to hurry up and have this plane ready for export by 2025 with its own domestic engine.
> 
> It would generate hundreds of sales to developing countries in the first few years. No idea why China is not making this project a little more urgent.



They are focusing on domestic engine I believe, hoping to see the plane use Chinese own engine and of course with this ambition it can prolong the program more.

They have already had J 20 and China is already rich enough, they are not really concern on foreign sales, what they want to achieve is to have their own engine and keep refining the design if the engine development is still not satisfying enough

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## UKBengali

Indos said:


> They are focusing on domestic engine I believe, hoping to see the plane use Chinese own engine and of course with this ambition it can prolong the program more.
> 
> They have already had J 20 and China is already rich enough, they are not really concern on foreign sales, what they want to achieve is to have their own engine and keep refining the design if the engine development is still not satisfying enough




Yes you are right China does not need the foreign currency anymore.

They could realistically have the domestic engine ready by 2025 if they concentrated enough resources on it but it seems they are more focused on the J-20s WS-15 engine and maybe the CJ-1000A for the C919 which they probably judge as greater national priorities.

Still I would have thought that getting the J-35 ready as soon as possible for their carriers would have more urgency as their J-15s have little chance against the F-35Cs on the US carriers.

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> PS: ... by the way maybe someone can contact SAC; if if they want to achieve a major PR-stunt, they shall make a roll-out on April 8th one day before the South Korean KFX will be unveiled on Friday.



The FC-31 prototype has already been flying for almost a decade. What kind of roll-out do you want other than maybe disclose the naval prototype?

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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> The FC-31 prototype has already been flying for almost a decade. What kind of roll-out do you want other than maybe disclose the naval prototype?




Exactly THIS ... not only a blurry image on a taxiway or tarmac, ...






... but a real unveiling and roll-out ceremony. Ok, I know I'm dreaming too much.


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## Deino

According to a post at the SDF there was an "interview with 赵霞 of SAC. She was the deputy chief designer of J-15. She is talking about her experience working as chief designer of a new fighter. She specifically says this aircraft will have four variants."

By the way, maybe is it just me, but I have the feeling recently they are talking about that new type (or at least hinting) more often. So does the smoke gets thicker towards some sort of unveiling? 

(Via @Temstar/SDF)

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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> Yes you are right China does not need the foreign currency anymore.
> 
> They could realistically have the domestic engine ready by 2025 if they concentrated enough resources on it but it seems they are more focused on the J-20s WS-15 engine and maybe the CJ-1000A for the C919 which they probably judge as greater national priorities.
> 
> Still I would have thought that getting the J-35 ready as soon as possible for their carriers would have more urgency as their J-15s have little chance against the F-35Cs on the US carriers.







If by timeline, domestic engine shall be ready by now.









China completes construction of medium-thrust aeroengine production line - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn






China completes construction of medium-thrust aeroengine production line
By 
Liu Xuanzun
Published: Feb 10, 2021 12:00 AM

​





A Chinese FC-31 stealth fighter has its test flight ahead of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, Nov 10, 2014. Photo: Xinhua

A Chinese arms firm has recently completed construction of a third-generation medium-thrust aeroengine production line, and analysts said that China can now mass produce warplanes without having to rely on imported engines.

The construction project for the third-generation medium-thrust aeroengine production line has passed an acceptance check following completion of construction, the National Business Daily reported on Monday, citing a statement from Aviation Power Co under the state-owned Aero Engine Corporation of China.

The company is responsible for the development and production of aeroengines for military and civilian purposes, with the focus being military products and scientific research for new engines, the company said on its website.

While the statement did not elaborate on the third-generation medium-thrust aeroengine, Chinese military observers speculated it could be the WS-13 engine, to be used on warplanes including the JF-17 fighter jet jointly developed by China and Pakistan and China’s second stealth fighter jet the FC-31, which is also rumored to become China’s next generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet in the future.

China has been importing Russia’s RD-93 engines for these purposes, observers said.

The completion of the production line indicates that China has made breakthroughs in aeroengine production, Xu Guangyu, a senior adviser to the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times on Tuesday

China will be able to mass produce the engines, which will allow the mass production of warplanes, Xu said.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

J-31 naval version won't replace J-15 which is a heavy hitter and door crasher. J-31 is a nice mid size complement to J-15.


----------



## lcloo

Deino said:


> According to a post at the SDF there was an "interview with 赵霞 of SAC. She was the deputy chief designer of J-15. She is talking about her experience working as chief designer of a new fighter. She specifically says this aircraft will have four variants."
> 
> By the way, maybe is it just me, but I have the feeling recently they are talking about that new type (or at least hinting) more often. So does the smoke gets thicker towards some sort of unveiling?
> 
> (Via @Temstar/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 731759


Purely a speculation from me, PLAAF has 1 variant with single, and 2nd variant with twin seats (j31). Then the navy also has 2 variants with foldable wings and tail hook, a single seat and a twin seat (j35). Thus the 4 variants as mentioned during the interview.

新一代飞机 would be traslated more appropriately as "new generatiion aircraft", which fits perfectly on J31/J35.


----------



## Beast

Tai Hai Chen said:


> J-31 naval version won't replace J-15 which is a heavy hitter and door crasher. J-31 is a nice mid size complement to J-15.


I suspect the engine is WS-19 and not WS-13.





__





代号黄山？涡扇19发动机首曝光 定位矢量中推_手机凤凰网







imil.ifeng.com





Claim to have a thrust ratio of 10:1 weight. SAC may made the J-35 slightly bigger than previous J-31 to carry more fuel. Given supported by the high thrust WS-19. That maybe possible.

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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> If by timeline, domestic engine shall be ready by now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China completes construction of medium-thrust aeroengine production line - Global Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaltimes.cn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China completes construction of medium-thrust aeroengine production line
> By
> Liu Xuanzun
> Published: Feb 10, 2021 12:00 AM
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Chinese FC-31 stealth fighter has its test flight ahead of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, Nov 10, 2014. Photo: Xinhua
> 
> A Chinese arms firm has recently completed construction of a third-generation medium-thrust aeroengine production line, and analysts said that China can now mass produce warplanes without having to rely on imported engines.
> 
> The construction project for the third-generation medium-thrust aeroengine production line has passed an acceptance check following completion of construction, the National Business Daily reported on Monday, citing a statement from Aviation Power Co under the state-owned Aero Engine Corporation of China.
> 
> The company is responsible for the development and production of aeroengines for military and civilian purposes, with the focus being military products and scientific research for new engines, the company said on its website.
> 
> While the statement did not elaborate on the third-generation medium-thrust aeroengine, Chinese military observers speculated it could be the WS-13 engine, to be used on warplanes including the JF-17 fighter jet jointly developed by China and Pakistan and China’s second stealth fighter jet the FC-31, which is also rumored to become China’s next generation aircraft carrier-based fighter jet in the future.
> 
> China has been importing Russia’s RD-93 engines for these purposes, observers said.
> 
> The completion of the production line indicates that China has made breakthroughs in aeroengine production, Xu Guangyu, a senior adviser to the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times on Tuesday
> 
> China will be able to mass produce the engines, which will allow the mass production of warplanes, Xu said.



Hmmmm.

Too early for the WS-19 next-gen engine and Pakistan is sticking with Russian engine for JF-17.

It may be for the speculated WS-13E with 9 ton thrust 9:1 T/W ratio engine in the class of the Gripen E engine.


----------



## Beast

UKBengali said:


> Hmmmm.
> 
> Too early for the WS-19 next-gen engine and Pakistan is sticking with Russian engine for JF-17.
> 
> It may be for the speculated WS-13E with 9 ton thrust 9:1 T/W ratio engine in the class of the Gripen E engine.


I think China never offered the WS-19 engine for PAF. The engine is a priority for PLAAF and PLANAF at the moment.





__





代号黄山？涡扇19发动机首曝光 定位矢量中推_手机凤凰网







imil.ifeng.com





This is an announcement from China aviation website of production of aviation engine and is accidental leak out, screenshot by forumer before deleted from its website. J-35 if inherit the J-31 conventional design will definitely need TVC to achieve high G moves.

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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> I think China never offered the WS-19 engine for PAF. The engine is a priority for PLAAF and PLANAF at the moment.




No, I was not implying WS-19 engine was offered to PAF at all.

All I was saying is that due to the fact that the WS-19 is obviously some years away from mass production then this production line cannot be for the WS-19 engine.

The J-31 may in fact be available by middle of this decade with the speculated WS-13E engine with 9 tonne thrust and even two of these engines should allow it to supercruise and still be a pretty good 5th gen carrier fighter. When the WS-19 is ready then the J-31 can reach its maximum aerodynamic potential.

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> According to a post at the SDF there was an "interview with 赵霞 of SAC. She was the deputy chief designer of J-15. She is talking about her experience working as chief designer of a new fighter. She specifically says this aircraft will have four variants."
> 
> By the way, maybe is it just me, but I have the feeling recently they are talking about that new type (or at least hinting) more often. So does the smoke gets thicker towards some sort of unveiling?
> 
> (Via @Temstar/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 731759



A wild shot in the dark: (1) air force version, (2) carrier-based version, (3) land-based naval version, and (4) export type.


----------



## Deino

Akasa said:


> A wild shot in the dark: (1) air force version, (2) carrier-based version, (3) land-based naval version, and (4) export type.




Agree ... but IMO (3) is more likely a twin-seater


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Tai Hai Chen said:


> J-31 naval version won't replace J-15 which is a heavy hitter and door crasher. J-31 is a nice mid size complement to J-15.


All the major Navies of the world USN/Royal Navy/French Navy using medium weight fighter jet on their carriers only you and Russia uses heavy weight jets on your carriers but these heavies limiting the space of carriers (fewer heavies carrier can carries as compare to medium) as well as have a weight issue, Russia also transiting to medium weight fighter jets on their carriers


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Tai Hai Chen said:


> J-31 naval version won't replace J-15 which is a heavy hitter and door crasher. J-31 is a nice mid size complement to J-15.


J-35 will replace all J-15 on Chinese Carriers and will have all Stealth fighter arsenals in their all carriers


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

White and Green with M/S said:


> Russia also transiting to medium weight fighter jets on their carriers



Russia uses MiG-29K which is mid size. Russia replaced Su-33 with MiG-29K.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Russia uses MiG-29K which is mid size. Russia replaced Su-33 with MiG-29K.


Yeah iknow but heavies doesn't add much advantage over Medium on carriers


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

White and Green with M/S said:


> Yeah iknow but heavies doesn't add much advantage over Medium on carriers



Heavies can carry long range air to air and ALCM. J-15 can carry PL-21 range 300 km in anti AWAC / anti tanker role. Mid size don't have such capability.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Heavies can carry long range air to air and ALCM. J-15 can carry PL-21 range 300 km in anti AWAC / anti tanker role. Mid size don't have such capability.


First of all their is there is no Chinese BVR called PL-21 with a range of 300 km, if you talking about old project its may be dead or put on hold, recent testing of new ultra long BVR named PL-20 from J-11B with a range of 400 km

And Stealth jet from carriers can easily intercept these kind of targets with PL-15 because they have lowest RCS as compare to conventional jets


----------



## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> J-15 can carry Khibiny jamming pods on wing tips which can jam AWACs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Khibiny (electronic countermeasures system) - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org



plain and simple that is wrong again. The J-15 cannot carry the Khibiny but only the much older Sorbitsa pod but AFAIK Chine did not order them.



Tai Hai Chen said:


> J-15 can carry R-37M which is carried on Flanker type jets. R-37M has range 400 km in anti AWAC / anti tanker role. That's why J-15 remains important for Chinese carriers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R-37 (missile) - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org



this is a lie again ... no Russian Su-33 was ever seen with a R-37 and since the J-15 has a Chinese avionics system it is not compat with Russian AAMs

take this as a warning and stop spreading lies and fakes.

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## MajesticPug

Deino said:


> plain and simple that is wrong again. The J-15 cannot carry the Khibiny but only the much older Sorbitsa pod but AFAIK Chine did not order them.
> 
> 
> 
> this is a lie again ... no Russian Su-33 was ever seen with a R-37 and since the J-15 has a Chinese avionics system it is not compat with Russian AAMs
> 
> take this as a warning and stop spreading lies and fakes.



Tai Hai Chen is likely a lying troll with an anti-China obsession. I have read many of his posts and disputed two of his. He immediately ran away without responding. But he kept on spitting out tons of trolling posts. I wonder how he got all this time. Hm...

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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> Exactly THIS ... not only a blurry image on a taxiway or tarmac, ...
> 
> View attachment 731370
> 
> 
> ... but a real unveiling and roll-out ceremony. Ok, I know I'm dreaming too much.
> 
> View attachment 731371



a rollout like the one being done for the KFX?


----------



## Deino

FuturePAF said:


> a rollout like the one being done for the KFX?




Would be my idea and wish!

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## casual

Deino said:


> Would be my idea and wish!


Has China ever done a fancy rollout before?


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## Beast

casual said:


> Has China ever done a fancy rollout before?


Yes.. 

On customer request! Smoke and fireworks.

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## Deino

Well ...  Also, it seems, that these are in fact two ... but also just for curiosity: the old ones were seen in June 2012 and the real FC-31 was spotted first in mid-September.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1380753572028104706

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## Beast

Some interesting video regards to FC-31

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Well ...  Also, it seems, that these are in fact two ... but also just for curiosity: the old ones were seen in June 2012 and the real FC-31 was spotted first in mid-September.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1380753572028104706





Based on the latest discussions at Twitter, this is: "剑门关服务区（Jian Menguan Service Stop). It is a major service stop on G5 National Highway and about 250km away from Chengdu."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1380908711401517064
So the question now is: Why then a transport of parts / modules from Chengdu/CAC to Xi'an? Could it be for static testing of another variant? Maybe the twin-seater or WS-15 integration? Or are such transports quite common but only not documented?

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## python-000

Hi bro, any new updates regards J-31/J-35 or its production or upgradation...


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## Deino

python-000 said:


> Hi bro, any new updates regards J-31/J-35 or its production or upgradation...




Unfortunately NOTHING!  ... but maybe @LKJ86 knows more about the rumour mill?


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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Unfortunately NOTHING!  ... but maybe @LKJ86 knows more about the rumour mill?


What’s F-21?


----------



## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> What’s F-21?




There is no F-21


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Deino said:


> There is no F-21


USAF aggressor sqn of Kafir in 90s was called F-21 think


----------



## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> USAF aggressor sqn of Kafir in 90s was called F-21 think




Yes and also Lockheed martin‘s F-16 proposal for India is called F-21, but how is this relevant for the FC-31?

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## White and Green with M/S

Deino said:


> Yes and also Lockheed martin‘s F-16 proposal for India is called F-21, but how is this relevant for the FC-31?


sorry sir but you ask WHAT IS F-21 so i gave the answer am not trying to derail the thread

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## khanasifm

Deino said:


> Well ...  Also, it seems, that these are in fact two ... but also just for curiosity: the old ones were seen in June 2012 and the real FC-31 was spotted first in mid-September.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1380753572028104706



Couple years old pic was posted long time ago or this is new ???


----------



## CAPRICORN-88

StormBreaker said:


> What’s F-21?


_The J-31 was originally referred to as Project 21 by China. _


----------



## Deino

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _The J-31 was originally referred to as Project 21 by China. _




Really? I thought it was called Project 310?

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## CAPRICORN-88

Deino said:


> Really? I thought it was called Project 310?



_Yes. You may be right. 
My memory may have failed me this time. 
I could have mixed it up the other way round. 
The J-31 was originally refer to as J-21 but they keep calling J-31 after the project number. It is has been quite a while. _

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## python-000

J-31/J-35 is best option for PAF as an stealth fighter hope our Brother Country China starts its production soon...

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## python-000

Dose any our Chinese bro translate it...


----------



## LKJ86

Via @牧是家 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 749929
> 
> Via @牧是家 from Weibo




But with the pitot again??


----------



## ziaulislam

Slow pace of FC31has been really disapointing

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## Reichsmarschall

Deino said:


> But with the pitot again??
> 
> 
> 
> But with the pitot again??


What do you mean by that? Was it supposed to fly without the pilot?


----------



## siegecrossbow

Reichsmarschall said:


> What do you mean by that? Was it supposed to fly without the pilot?



We saw an image of a FC-31 without pitot before. On an actual prototype, they need to remove the pitot tube on the nose cone since it negatively impacts stealth in production aircraft. Maybe that image we saw earlier was photoshopped.

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## clibra

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 749929
> 
> Via @牧是家 from Weibo



Is this a recent photo?


----------



## LKJ86

ziaulislam said:


> Slow pace of FC31has been really disapointing


What can you expect of a technology demonstrator?


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> What can you expect of a technology demonstrator?




But are there any hints concerning the J-35 prototype? I remember last year a short period where nearly each week a new rumour was leaked suggesting an unveiling "soon".


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## Abid123

When will the J-31/J-35 be ready for export?


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## Deino

Abid123 said:


> When will the J-31/J-35 be ready for export?




Before you run, you must crawl and walk ... and since the J-35 hasn't been unveiled nor even flown yet, I think it is a bit too early to think about exports!

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## Abid123

Deino said:


> Before you run, you must crawl and walk ... and since the J-35 hasn't been unveiled nor even flown yet, I think it is a bit too early to think about exports!


What about the J-31?


----------



## Deino

Abid123 said:


> What about the J-31?




In fact, there is NO J-31. The current FC-31 is a demonstrator only.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Cement carrier in Wuhan?

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## FuturePAF

siegecrossbow said:


> Cement carrier in Wuhan?
> 
> View attachment 751526


Strategically placed canopy to hide the engine exhausts?

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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> Cement carrier in Wuhan?
> 
> View attachment 751526




Yes indeed … but since when is the FC/31/J-35 mock up there?


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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Yes indeed … but since when is the FC/31/J-35 mock up there?



Recent.

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## Akasa

siegecrossbow said:


> Recent.



AFAIK the J-15 mockup appeared on the Type 002 replica a few months before the actual prototype flew.

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## Deino

Akasa said:


> AFAIK the J-15 mockup appeared on the Type 002 replica a few months before the actual prototype flew.




Really? ... that was actually my idea too, if there is a connection?!


----------



## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Really? ... that was actually my idea too, if there is a connection?!



Yes it is as good as painting PLANAF star on the J-31. They don’t put random aircraft on the cement carrier.

This will probably coincide with the release of a “new” fifth generation fighter this year as rumored by Global Times.

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## PakAlp

ziaulislam said:


> Slow pace of FC31has been really disapointing



We are still not sure if the Chinese military wants this plane or not. It has been 9 years and only 2 prototypes. If everything was going at full pace then we would have been making plans to order this plane. The start of 100 Pak specs Fc31s (AZM) induction by 2030 would have been a real joy, then 2nd 5th generation would have been Tfx when its ready.


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## sheik

siegecrossbow said:


> Cement carrier in Wuhan?
> 
> View attachment 751526



It looks a little too small and disappointing to me. PLAN should get a larger one. The FC-31 should go up a size like from F-18C/D to F-18E/F.


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## siegecrossbow

sheik said:


> It looks a little too small and disappointing to me. PLAN should get a larger one. The FC-31 should go up a size like from F-18C/D to F-18E/F.



That needs to wait till WS-19 is ready.

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## python-000

siegecrossbow said:


> Cement carrier in Wuhan?
> 
> View attachment 751526


Nice to see it still alive...

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## siegecrossbow

python-000 said:


> Nice to see it still alive...



Alive? This is basically PLANAF endorsing the platform as the next carrier borne aircraft.



PakAlp said:


> We are still not sure if the Chinese military wants this plane or not. It has been 9 years and only 2 prototypes. If everything was going at full pace then we would have been making plans to order this plane. The start of 100 Pak specs Fc31s (AZM) induction by 2030 would have been a real joy, then 2nd 5th generation would have been Tfx when its ready.



Lol. Chill, take a deep breath, and be patient. This bird has full backing from PLANAF and going by JH-7’s precedence, PLAAF may acquire it as well.

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## 52051

I am kind of disappointed, so basically they put this piece of crap on China's first heavy CV, in the age of long-range anti-ship missiles?

The only reason I believe is that this is a werefare effects to keep SAC/601 afloat.


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## PakAlp

Upgraded FC-31 top candidate for China’s next-generation carrier-based stealth fighter jet: observer - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn

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## CIA Mole

52051 said:


> I am kind of disappointed, so basically they put this piece of crap on China's first heavy CV, in the age of long-range anti-ship missiles?
> 
> The only reason I believe is that this is a werefare effects to keep SAC/601 afloat.



why build carriers at all in the age of these missiles?

to me it seems they’re just challenging themselves to make all these technologies rather than thinking about actually using them


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## siegecrossbow

CIA Mole said:


> why build carriers at all in the age of these missiles?
> 
> to me it seems they’re just challenging themselves to make all these technologies rather than thinking about actually using them



Carriers are very important for power projection.

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## Beidou2020

siegecrossbow said:


> Carriers are very important for power projection.



Also aircraft carriers are a psychological weapon too.

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## ozranger

CIA Mole said:


> why build carriers at all in the age of these missiles?
> 
> to me it seems they’re just challenging themselves to make all these technologies rather than thinking about actually using them



Power projection for/against small countries. 
For super power like the US, you still need to drive the fleet to strategic hot spots to create some face to face confrontations to US force, then you can think of launching ASBM attacks if they fire the first shot.
For Taiwan it is particularly good to use carriers including LHDs to create a no-fly zone to help landing operations.

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## 52051

CIA Mole said:


> why build carriers at all in the age of these missiles?
> 
> to me it seems they’re just challenging themselves to make all these technologies rather than thinking about actually using them



Well, offence and defence

Just because you have anti-tank missiles, doesn't mean you don't need tanks anymore.

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## CrazyZ

PLANAF backing is great news...means a potent combat plane will emerge in time. Lets hope JF-17 B3 can keep the PAF competitive enough until these new birds are ready.


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## casual

It's really fat now. Probably to meet PLANAF requirements for internal weapons bay volume. Doubt the plan can super cruise.

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## IblinI

siegecrossbow said:


> Recent.


模型是发财还是海丝带啊?


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## Beast

PakAlp said:


> We are still not sure if the Chinese military wants this plane or not. It has been 9 years and only 2 prototypes. If everything was going at full pace then we would have been making plans to order this plane. The start of 100 Pak specs Fc31s (AZM) induction by 2030 would have been a real joy, then 2nd 5th generation would have been Tfx when its ready.


If Pakistan confirm dump in USD 2-3 billion , surely this project will have kick started earlier....


casual said:


> It's really fat now. Probably to meet PLANAF requirements for internal weapons bay volume. Doubt the plan can super cruise.


The new WS-19 engine has thrust more than 10000kg with after burner and its ready for production this years. More powerful than RD-93MA and F414.


CIA Mole said:


> why build carriers at all in the age of these missiles?
> 
> to me it seems they’re just challenging themselves to make all these technologies rather than thinking about actually using them


All superpower need a few aircraft carrier. To intimidate hostile small nation and project air defense and offense beyond shore. They are vulnerable against modern anti-ship means but only a sizable and modern fleet can penetrate CV fleet.

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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> If Pakistan confirm dump in USD 2-3 billion , surely this project will have kick started earlier....


It is nothing about Pakistan.

FC-31 is just a technology demonstrator of SAC.

It is impossible for China to develop two completely different 5th-generation fighters almost at the same time. After the mass producton of J-20, it is J-XX's turn.

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> It is nothing about Pakistan.
> 
> FC-31 is just a technology demonstrator of SAC.
> 
> It is impossible for China to develop two completely different 5th-generation fighters almost at the same time. After the mass producton of J-20, it is J-XX's turn.


If Pakistan dump in money, this project can kick start much earlier. Shenyang desperately need investment since during early stage of this project when PLAAF and PLANAF not interested. SAC flies this plane(FC-31) in Airshow trying hard to get investor for this project.


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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> If Pakistan dump in money, this project can kick start much earlier. Shenyang desperately need investment since during early stage of this project when PLAAF and PLANAF not interested.


NO NO NO
Pakistan can't afford the project alone. It is much much more expensive than the project of JF-17/FC-1.

And IMO, the development model like JF-17/FC-1 is impossible in the future.

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## FuturePAF

LKJ86 said:


> NO NO NO
> Pakistan can't afford the project alone. It is much much more expensive than the project of JF-17/FC-1.
> 
> And IMO, the development model like JF-17/FC-1 is impossible in the future.



They key are the engines. Once the WS-19 engines reach a level of maturity and reliability, building the platform is relatively easier for Chinese industry these days. Also, as China ramps up production of the J-20 and possibly J-35, the per unit cost of components will drop, which is where a purchase/investment for co-production would make the most sense. Pakistan has to focus nowadays ok maximizing the JF-17 as the design evolves, while at the same time the J-35 develops with PLANAF funding. Then, the PAF will probably make a purchase (after it has reached the limit of what it can do with the JF-17) when the J-35 design is deemed mature, similar to PAF probably purchasing the J-10CE, now that the design is seen as mature enough.

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## LKJ86

FuturePAF said:


> They key are the engines. Once the WS-19 engines reach a level of maturity and reliability, building the platform is relatively easier for Chinese industry these days. Also, as China ramps up production of the J-20 and possibly J-35, the per unit cost of components will drop, which is where a purchase/investment for co-production would make the most sense. Pakistan has to maximize the JF-17 as the design evolves, while at the same time the J-35 develops with PLANAF funding. PAF will probably make a purchase when the J-35 design is deemed mature, similar to PAF probably purchasing the J-10CE, now that the design is seen as mature enough.


The engines are not the key issue. WS-13E is ready, just like WS-10 to J-20.

And you just miss the key point: *The needs of PLAAF/PLAN are not the same as those of PAF.*

That is also why PLAAF/PLAN would never consider JF-17/FC-1 that is developed according to the needs of PAF.

SAC and CAC focus on the needs of PLAAF and PLAN.


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## CIA Mole

LKJ86 said:


> The engines are not the key issue. WS-13E is ready, just like WS-10 to J-20.
> 
> And you just miss the key point: *The needs of PLAAF/PLAN are not the same as those of PAF.*
> 
> That is also why PLAAF/PLAN would never consider JF-17/FC-1 that is developped according to the needs of PAF.
> 
> SAC and CAC focus on the needs of PLAAF and PLAN.



Hmm what are their needs? Is it similar to US doctrine?


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## LKJ86

CIA Mole said:


> Hmm what are their needs? Is it similar to US doctrine?


PLAAF/PLAN choose J-10, while PAF takes JF-17/FC-1.

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## FuturePAF

LKJ86 said:


> The engines are not the key issue. WS-13E is ready, just like WS-10 to J-20.
> 
> And you just miss the key point: *The needs of PLAAF/PLAN are not the same as those of PAF.*
> 
> That is also why PLAAF/PLAN would never consider JF-17/FC-1 that is developed according to the needs of PAF.
> 
> SAC and CAC focus on the needs of PLAAF and PLAN.



I didn’t mean the needs are the same for the PLANAF and the PAF, rather the PAF with its limited budget can’t afford to go through the development process at a relatively early stage. Obviously the CAC and SAC design for their primary customer.


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## siegecrossbow

IblinI said:


> 模型是发财还是海丝带啊?



Looks to be FV-31v2.0 but who can tell for sure from such a blurry photo?


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## Ali_Baba

Beast said:


> If Pakistan dump in money, this project can kick start much earlier. Shenyang desperately need investment since during early stage of this project when PLAAF and PLANAF not interested. SAC flies this plane(FC-31) in Airshow trying hard to get investor for this project.



The FC-1 / JF17 project was meant to be a 50%/50% cost share model between Pakistan and China.

China pulled out of the cost-sharing of the JF17 when it decided it did not meet its "requirements".

Pakistan *had to fund the entire project on its own* - this affected the speed of the development programme and the overall cost to Pakistan. This affected Pakistan defence, as Pakistan can now only afford fewer units of the JF17 that it originally planned to as it spent so much developing the plane. In addition, most of the core Intellectual propery (IP) ownership for the project is owned by China even though Pakistan paid for the development for almost all of it.

Pakistan only gets a profit share - and ownership of IP is limited.

That is why Pakistan is doing project Azm ... that experience left a sour taste in Pakistan's mouth .. Pakistan will pay and develop its own IP where possible.

Pakistan is not going to 100% fund another fighter where China *owns all of the intellectual property rights and manufacturing rights. Profit share is not enough ....*

China needs to fund the J31 to J35 and if J35 turns out to be a good product - then Pakistan will review it as a common off the shelf purchase only under those circumstances.

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## siegecrossbow

Beast said:


> If Pakistan dump in money, this project can kick start much earlier. Shenyang desperately need investment since during early stage of this project when PLAAF and PLANAF not interested. SAC flies this plane(FC-31) in Airshow trying hard to get investor for this project.



Has Pakistan collaborated with SAC post F-6 (J-6)?


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## Daniel808

Ali_Baba said:


> The FC-1 / JF17 project was meant to be a 50%/50% cost share model between Pakistan and China.
> 
> China pulled out of the cost-sharing of the JF17 when it decided it did not meet its "requirements".
> 
> Pakistan *had to fund the entire project on its own* - this affected the speed of the development programme and the overall cost to Pakistan. This affected Pakistan defence, as Pakistan can now only afford fewer units of the JF17 that it originally planned to as it spent so much developing the plane. In addition, most of the core Intellectual propery (IP) ownership for the project is owned by China even though Pakistan paid for the development for almost all of it.
> 
> Pakistan only gets a profit share - and ownership of IP is limited.
> 
> That is why Pakistan is doing project Azm ... that experience left a sour taste in Pakistan's mouth .. Pakistan will pay and develop its own IP where possible.
> 
> Pakistan is not going to 100% fund another fighter where China *owns all of the intellectual property rights and manufacturing rights. Profit share is not enough ....*
> 
> China needs to fund the J31 to J35 and if J35 turns out to be a good product - then Pakistan will review it as a common off the shelf purchase only under those circumstances.



But China develop J-35 as 5th Gen *Carrier-Based* Stealth Fighter

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## CrazyZ

LKJ86 said:


> The engines are not the key issue. WS-13E is ready, just like WS-10 to J-20.
> 
> And you just miss the key point: *The needs of PLAAF/PLAN are not the same as those of PAF.*
> 
> That is also why PLAAF/PLAN would never consider JF-17/FC-1 that is developed according to the needs of PAF.
> 
> SAC and CAC focus on the needs of PLAAF and PLAN.


100% agree. PLAAF/PLAN don't need JF-17/FC-1. Light fighters meet most of PAF's tactical needs...but not the best for fighting in the pacific theatre. There is more overlap with J31,IMO. PAF needs a medium sized advanced fighter to replace the F-16 as the high end of its fleet. A finished J31 is the best potential replacement. 

Taking the F-35 as a comparison, I expect after models for PLAAF/PLAN are designed and in production an export version will be offered to Chinese client states. Also, I think China is proceeding quickly on J31...especially when compared to the USA F-35 program. which took a decade to get to the point J-31 is in a few years. For me its just a matter of being patient and waiting.

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## CrazyZ

Ali_Baba said:


> The FC-1 / JF17 project was meant to be a 50%/50% cost share model between Pakistan and China.
> 
> China pulled out of the cost-sharing of the JF17 when it decided it did not meet its "requirements".
> 
> Pakistan *had to fund the entire project on its own* - this affected the speed of the development programme and the overall cost to Pakistan. This affected Pakistan defence, as Pakistan can now only afford fewer units of the JF17 that it originally planned to as it spent so much developing the plane. In addition, most of the core Intellectual propery (IP) ownership for the project is owned by China even though Pakistan paid for the development for almost all of it.
> 
> Pakistan only gets a profit share - and ownership of IP is limited.
> 
> That is why Pakistan is doing project Azm ... that experience left a sour taste in Pakistan's mouth .. Pakistan will pay and develop its own IP where possible.
> 
> Pakistan is not going to 100% fund another fighter where China *owns all of the intellectual property rights and manufacturing rights. Profit share is not enough ....*
> 
> China needs to fund the J31 to J35 and if J35 turns out to be a good product - then Pakistan will review it as a common off the shelf purchase only under those circumstances.


The development and production of a globally competitive 5 gen stealth fighter will require the backing from the military of a major global power with a history of making combat AC (that means China, USA, EU or Russia). We need to keep an eye on J31/35.....even if we continue with AZM silently in the background. We must be pragmatic.

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## Ali_Baba

CrazyZ said:


> The development and production of a globally competitive 5 gen stealth fighter will require the backing from the military of a major global power with a history of making combat AC (that means China, USA, EU or Russia). We need to keep an eye on J31/35.....even if we continue with AZM silently in the background. We must be pragmatic.



Agree for sure - I think PAF will wait and see what becomes of both TF-X and AZM.

I would be suprised if PAF thinks it can develop its own 5th Generation airframe from scratch with the corresponding FBW system. Truly suprised, given there has been no experience of designing a simple plane in Pakistan of any type for military purposes, or civilian ( there is the occasional one report about license manufacture of civilian planes in Pakistan ). To design a flybe wire that matches the needs of the airframe is very complex. You have to look how long it took the FBW for the Eurofighter, and even how long it took India to develop one for Tejas.

Even if China has given the source code and hardware design of the FBW for the JF17 to Pakistan, that would not be enough as any 5th Gen platform with stealth, will most likely be unstable. It is of course now actively working on UAVs/UCAVs etc.

Pakistan has designed cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles in house and from scratch, so part of the engineering talent is there.

Pakistan has not really defined clearly what Azm is interms of both the platform or the programme, so it is difficult to measure how they will get there. Based on PAF timelines for Azm, it will not be a greenfied new platform from scratch, but a derivative of either TFX or J35.

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## CrazyZ

Ali_Baba said:


> Agree for sure - I think PAF will wait and see what becomes of both TF-X and AZM.
> 
> I would be suprised if PAF thinks it can develop its own 5th Generation airframe from scratch with the corresponding FBW system. Truly suprised, given there has been no experience of designing a simple plane in Pakistan of any type for military purposes, or civilian ( there is the occasional one report about license manufacture of civilian planes in Pakistan ). To design a flybe wire that matches the needs of the airframe is very complex. You have to look how long it took the FBW for the Eurofighter, and even how long it took India to develop one for Tejas.
> 
> Even if China has given the source code and hardware design of the FBW for the JF17 to Pakistan, that would not be enough as any 5th Gen platform with stealth, will most likely be unstable. It is of course now actively working on UAVs/UCAVs etc.
> 
> Pakistan has designed cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles in house and from scratch, so part of the engineering talent is there.
> 
> Pakistan has not really defined clearly what Azm is interms of both the platform or the programme, so it is difficult to measure how they will get there. Based on PAF timelines for Azm, it will not be a greenfied new platform from scratch, but a derivative of either TFX or J35.


Correct. You must also consider unit costs. If a big buyer like PLAAF/PLAN is buying many 100's of J-31/J35 unit costs for client states will be lower just due economies of scale. Similarly, client state purchases will lower the unit costs for the PLAAF/PLAN as well (but to a lesser extent). Its win win.

A from scratch AZM would have to import engines and electronics from China anyway. Unit costs could be higher then J-31/J35 that is bought cooperatively by PLAAF/PLAN, PAF, and a few other China client states....due to economies of scale.

Best approach may be to work SAC on a tailored J31/J35 for PAF's needs. That may ultimately be what AZM turns out to be.


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## kungfugymnast

CrazyZ said:


> Correct. You must also consider unit costs. If a big buyer like PLAAF/PLAN is buying many 100's of J-31/J35 unit costs for client states will be lower just due economies of scale. Similarly, client state purchases will lower the unit costs for the PLAAF/PLAN as well (but to a lesser extent). Its win win.
> 
> A from scratch AZM would have to import engines and electronics from China anyway. Unit costs could be higher then J-31/J35 that is bought cooperatively by PLAAF/PLAN, PAF, and a few other China client states....due to economies of scale.
> 
> Best approach may be to work SAC on a tailored J31/J35 for PAF's needs. That may ultimately be what AZM turns out to be.



FC-31 will likely be sold to PAF to get combat proven like JF-17. China navy would need larger longer range stealth fighter with side internal bays to meet criteria. The FC-31 will only serve as test bed for aircraft carrier EMALS launch and take off research. WS-13 & WS-19 engines could fit JF-17 which means it is practical for PAF to buy even just few FC-31 for strategic interdiction air strikes and high asset value interception sorties if there's budget constraints.

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## waja2000

kungfugymnast said:


> FC-31 will likely be sold to PAF to get combat proven like JF-17. China navy would need larger longer range stealth fighter with side internal bays to meet criteria. The FC-31 will only serve as test bed for aircraft carrier EMALS launch and take off research. WS-13 & WS-19 engines could fit JF-17 which means it is practical for PAF to buy even just few FC-31 for strategic interdiction air strikes and high asset value interception sorties if there's budget constraints.



I for see PAF need alot FC-31 (or other 5 Gen fighter) since need to facing india AMCA start 2027.


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## CIA Mole

waja2000 said:


> I for see PAF need alot FC-31 (or other 5 Gen fighter) since need to facing india AMCA start 2027.



I’ve yet to see anything beyond powerpoint presentations on amca.

There will be no indian 5th gen

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## siegecrossbow

CIA Mole said:


> I’ve yet to see anything beyond powerpoint presentations on amca.
> 
> There will be no indian 5th gen



Even if there is it will look like ripoff of the FC-31 now that they are using the DSI, which the Bhakts have been bashing since 2009 buthave warmed up to last year when their PPT planes started using them.

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## StormBreaker

siegecrossbow said:


> Even if there is it will look like ripoff of the FC-31 now that they are using the DSI, which the Bhakts have been bashing since 2009 buthave warmed up to last year when their PPT planes started using them.
> View attachment 753498
> 
> View attachment 753499


That AMCA design is not much stealthy, Fins aren’t cut

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## python-000

Pakistan must need to Go for J-31/J35 original foam & forget about medium...


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## Deino

Can we please leave out this constant "Pakistan MUS", "Pakistan will", "China shall provide Pakistan" at least in this thread?  

China MUST nothing in regard the J-35 towards Pakistan and will in no way wait nor change any of its specifications. It need the J-35 for their own forces and surely will finish this project like they finished the J-20. If there will be later a dedicated version for Pakistan or export in general remains to be seen and can be discussed in the PAF section.

Thank you.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1406621817033445378

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## python-000

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1406621817033445378


WoW its looks wonderful & deadly...

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## Trango Towers

ziaulislam said:


> Slow pace of FC31has been really disapointing


Like making fruit chat....
Jaldi jaldi


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## jjx wood

siegecrossbow said:


> Even if there is it will look like ripoff of the FC-31 now that they are using the DSI, which the Bhakts have been bashing since 2009 buthave warmed up to last year when their PPT planes started using them.
> View attachment 753498
> 
> View attachment 753499


India haven't complete their Tejas yet, they only built 20 IOC Tejas. And I think they built 1-2 FOC, that's about it.

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1406621817033445378



seXyyyy 😍







😍🤩😎
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## sheik

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1406621817033445378



IMHO the public display of this mockup means either the project is terminated or it will change a lot before joining PLA and it's probably almost ready for its maiden flight.

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## CIA Mole

was this ever posted?

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412823747875282946

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## LKJ86

Via @B-612-015 from Weibo

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## Deino

I want to see the J-35 being unveiled ....


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> I want to see the J-35 being unveiled ....



Static test frame has been transported to CFTE, so shouldn't be too long now.

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## Deino

Akasa said:


> Static test frame has been transported to CFTE, so shouldn't be too long now.




Yes, if the timing is similar, then in about 4 months maybe (so in about November)

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## Stealth

You will see J-35 in the next 2 months or maybe less. China already tested J-15 with EMALS multiple times. Catapult launch is only suitable for lightweight aircraft. That’s why the relevance of J-35 is significantly increased in recent times. 003 is almost near completion (apparently in the next 3-4 months). So, this is the right time to perform rigorous platform testing with the right candidate. There is no such aircraft exists in the entire Chinese inventory that can fit in the category except J-35. So, under the emergency initiatives, the J-35 has been transported to the facility one and a half months ago. I am pretty sure they are gearing up for the testing. Waiting for the images. Soon, the surprise is coming for the Amreekanz!

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## Deino

Stealth said:


> You will see J-35 in the next 2 months or maybe less. China already tested J-15 with EMALS multiple times. Catapult launch is only suitable for the lightweight aircrafts. That’s why the relevance of J-35 is significantly increased in the recent times. 003 is almost near the major completion (apparently in the next 3-4 months). So, this is the right time to perform rigorous platform testing with the right candidate. There is no such aircraft exists in the entire Chinese inventory that can fit in the category except J-35. So, under the emergency initiatives, the J-35 has been transported to the facility one and a half month ago. I am pretty sure they are gearing up for the testing. Waiting for the images. Soon, Chinese again will surprise Amreekanz …




But wasn't the prototype transported only early this month? What makes you so sure about "has been transported to the facility one and a half month ago"? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412454233228599296


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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> I want to see the J-35 being unveiled ....



Me too !!! With a potential unveiling of a new Russian platform, as enthausists, we live in interesting times.


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## Stealth

Deino said:


> But wasn't the prototype transported only early this month? What makes you so sure about "has been transported to the facility one and a half month ago"?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1412454233228599296



First of all, how you evaluate the timeline from the picture? maybe someone posted after a month or so


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## LKJ86

Stealth said:


> China already tested J-15 with EMALS multiple times. Catapult launch is only suitable for the lightweight aircrafts. That’s why the relevance of J-35 is significantly increased in the recent times. 003 is almost near completion (apparently in the next 3-4 months). So, this is the right time to perform rigorous platform testing with the right candidate. There is no such aircraft exists in the entire Chinese inventory that can fit in the category except J-35.


J-15 will serve on Type 003 CV for sure.

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## Stealth

LKJ86 said:


> J-15 will serve on Type 003 CV for sure.



EMALS tech is not suitable for flankers. they are the heaviest in the league. I have also read this somewhere a few days ago that a Chinese military officer said the same thing. J-15 is so overweight. Even the new generation of catapult i guess C13-2 installed in the new US carriers would struggle to launch the J15 efficiently....


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## LKJ86

Stealth said:


> EMALS tech is not suitable for flankers. they are the heaviest in the league. I have also read this somewhere a few days ago that a Chinese military officer said the same thing. J-15 is so overweight. Even the new generation of catapult i guess C13-2 installed in the new US carriers would struggle to launch the J15 efficiently....


You will change your mind.


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## Stealth

LKJ86 said:


> You will change your mind.



I literally don't care whether they will use J15 or not. I am talking about facts. flankers are heavy and not suitable for EMALS and that's what I have read and understood so far. And the same thing was stated by Chinese naval experts as well. I will hunt the article in which the officer said a similar thing. Anyone can install dual turbos in a cooper but it doesn't mean that the car is developed for that kind of thingy in real.

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## Incog_nito

Is it just a Carrier-based fighter or not?


----------



## Deino

Stealth said:


> First of all, how you evaluate the timeline from the picture? maybe someone posted after a month or so




Fair point, but allegedly the guy posted in the discussion that the prototype was transported just a few days before.


----------



## Polestar 2

Stealth said:


> I literally don't care whether they will use J15 or not. I am talking about facts. flankers are heavy and not suitable for EMALS and that's what I have read and understood so far. And the same thing was stated by Chinese naval experts as well. I will hunt the article in which the officer said a similar thing. Anyone can install dual turbos in a cooper but it doesn't mean that the car is developed for that kind of thingy in real.


AWACS is heavy too but that doesn't stop it from using Catapult. Same as the Tomcat F-14 and Intruder A-6.


----------



## monitor

The FC-31 stealth fighter demonstrator - in fact a static specimen as it seems - together with other SAC family members on public display at SAC's expo park. (Images via 
@B
-612-015 from Weibo)

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## Deino

monitor said:


> The FC-31 stealth fighter demonstrator - in fact a static specimen as it seems - together with other SAC family members on public display at SAC's expo park. (Images via
> @B
> -612-015 from Weibo)




Why not given direct credit to the source where you found this text?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415197720906813441

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## Daniel808

Stealth said:


> I literally don't care whether they will use J15 or not. I am talking about facts. flankers are heavy and not suitable for EMALS and that's what I have read and understood so far. And the same thing was stated by Chinese naval experts as well. I will hunt the article in which the officer said a similar thing. Anyone can install dual turbos in a cooper but it doesn't mean that the car is developed for that kind of thingy in real.



Seems like Chinese and american have different opinion with you.


J-15/Flankers/F-14 have same weight and MTOW

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## Stealth

Daniel808 said:


> Seems like Chinese and american have different opinion with you.
> 
> 
> J-15/Flankers/F-14 have same weight and MTOW
> View attachment 762185



If you don't understand what I said and have no idea about today's carrier based platform requirements, don't tag me or anyone. Do some research instead of sharing a picture of 3 decades old carrier based RETIRED aircraft


"In July 2018, *Lieutenant General Zhang Honghe of the PLAAF stated that China is developing a new carrier-based aircraft* that will replace the J-15 due to four crashes and numerous technical problems. *One problem with the aircraft is that it is the heaviest carrier-borne fighter *in current operation *with an empty weight of 17,500 kg *compared to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's 14,600 kg (though it is less than the F-14 Tomcat's weight of 19,800 kg). *Weight problems are compounded when operating off *_*Liaoning*_, as its *STOBAR launch and recovery method further limits payload capacity.* "

No one wants to burn fuel for no ***** reason on the takeoffffff!

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## Akasa

Stealth said:


> You will see J-35 in the next 2 months or maybe less. China already tested J-15 with EMALS multiple times. Catapult launch is only suitable for lightweight aircraft. That’s why the relevance of J-35 is significantly increased in recent times. 003 is almost near completion (apparently in the next 3-4 months). So, this is the right time to perform rigorous platform testing with the right candidate. There is no such aircraft exists in the entire Chinese inventory that can fit in the category except J-35. So, under the emergency initiatives, the J-35 has been transported to the facility one and a half months ago. I am pretty sure they are gearing up for the testing. Waiting for the images. Soon, the surprise is coming for the Amreekanz!



If I had Jeff Bezo's income for every prediction of yours that has been correct, I'd have $0.

Not personal, just an observation.


Akasa said:


> Static test frame has been transported to CFTE, so shouldn't be too long now.



Which would be in accordance with the current rumors.

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## Daniel808

Stealth said:


> If you don't understand what I said and have no idea about today's carrier based platform requirements, don't tag me or anyone. Do some research instead of sharing a picture of 3 decades old carrier based RETIRED aircraft
> 
> 
> "In July 2018, *Lieutenant General Zhang Honghe of the PLAAF stated that China is developing a new carrier-based aircraft* that will replace the J-15 due to four crashes and numerous technical problems. *One problem with the aircraft is that it is the heaviest carrier-borne fighter *in current operation *with an empty weight of 17,500 kg *compared to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's 14,600 kg (though it is less than the F-14 Tomcat's weight of 19,800 kg). *Weight problems are compounded when operating off *_*Liaoning*_, as its *STOBAR launch and recovery method further limits payload capacity.* "
> 
> No one wants to burn fuel for no ***** reason on the takeoffffff!



*Then Don't talk the Topic you totally DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.*

The J-15 is actually capable of taking off from the Liaoning or Shandong with full MTOW with some preconditions.

But, I don't have enough time to lecture or enlighten people like you

You better read this analysis

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387307030923284485

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## jjx wood

Stealth said:


> If you don't understand what I said and have no idea about today's carrier based platform requirements, don't tag me or anyone. Do some research instead of sharing a picture of 3 decades old carrier based RETIRED aircraft
> 
> 
> "In July 2018, *Lieutenant General Zhang Honghe of the PLAAF stated that China is developing a new carrier-based aircraft* that will replace the J-15 due to four crashes and numerous technical problems. *One problem with the aircraft is that it is the heaviest carrier-borne fighter *in current operation *with an empty weight of 17,500 kg *compared to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's 14,600 kg (though it is less than the F-14 Tomcat's weight of 19,800 kg). *Weight problems are compounded when operating off *_*Liaoning*_, as its *STOBAR launch and recovery method further limits payload capacity.* "
> 
> No one wants to burn fuel for no ***** reason on the takeoffffff!


It didn't say anything about J-15 cannot used with EMALS?


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## Stealth

Daniel808 said:


> *Then Don't talk the Topic you totally DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.*
> 
> The J-15 is actually capable of taking off from the Liaoning or Shandong with full MTOW with some preconditions.
> 
> But, I don't have enough time to lecture or enlighten people like you
> 
> You better read this analysis
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387307030923284485



Anyway can read your mindset through your post lol .... the analysis of some writer (edited: from internet warrior) is more credible in front of you than the active LT Gen of the Chinese navy regarding J15 ? that's what you're trying to tell?


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## Daniel808

Stealth said:


> Anyway can read your mindset through your post lol .... some interior warrior analysis is more accurate and correct in front of you as compared to the active LT Gen of Chinese navy statement regarding J15 LOL



If you have been long watching Chinese Military Development, you will not call Rick Joe aka Blitzo as internet warrior analysis

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## Stealth

Daniel808 said:


> If you have been long watching Chinese Military Development, you will not call Rick Joe aka Blitzo as internet warrior analysis



There are tons of writers like him. You can't read and believe everyone. Every writer has their own perspective. I was quoted "Chinese LT Gen's statement" whereas you've provided Rick J. analysis who is more credible? and the fact of the matter, I really don't care whether the Chinese are comfortable with the J15 or J35. I was just providing the fact that the less-weight aircraft would be better on flat-top AC ops as compared to the heaviest ones. What's your point of argument?




jjx wood said:


> It didn't say anything about J-15 cannot used with EMALS?



Where did I stated this or intend to establish that the EMALS is incapable to launch J15 ?


----------



## sheik

Stealth said:


> There are tons of writers like him. You can't read and believe everyone. Every writer has their own perspective. I was quoted "Chinese LT Gen's statement" whereas you've provided Rick J. analysis who is more credible? and the fact of the matter, I really don't care whether the Chinese are comfortable with the J15 or J35. I was just providing the fact that the less-weight aircraft would be better on flat-top AC ops as compared to the heaviest ones. What's your point of argument?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I stated this or intend to establish that the EMALS is incapable to launch J15 ?





Stealth said:


> There are tons of writers like him. You can't read and believe everyone. Every writer has their own perspective. I was quoted "Chinese LT Gen's statement" whereas you've provided Rick J. analysis who is more credible? and the fact of the matter, I really don't care whether the Chinese are comfortable with the J15 or J35. I was just providing the fact that the less-weight aircraft would be better on flat-top AC ops as compared to the heaviest ones. What's your point of argument?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I stated this or intend to establish that the EMALS is incapable to launch J15 ?



Firstly, what you quoted was from South China Morning Post which is a Hongkong media and is not a credible source for military news at all. The same or similar reports can not be found in any mainland China based media. So the authenticity is in doubt. Secondly, Lt Gen Zhang Honghe is from the air force, not the Navy. Why would he make any serious comments on Navy's aircrafts? That does not make much sense especially considering that China and PLA's high ranked officials are more restricted in expressing opinions publicly. If he had really said those words to South China Morning Post, he must have been drunk. Also, the article from South China Morning Post was in English and it could be lost in translation from Gen Zhang's original words in Chinese. All in all, you cannot seriously take a single quote from a media which is not credible, especially when there are many other sources against that.

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## kungfugymnast

Stealth said:


> If you don't understand what I said and have no idea about today's carrier based platform requirements, don't tag me or anyone. Do some research instead of sharing a picture of 3 decades old carrier based RETIRED aircraft
> 
> 
> "In July 2018, *Lieutenant General Zhang Honghe of the PLAAF stated that China is developing a new carrier-based aircraft* that will replace the J-15 due to four crashes and numerous technical problems. *One problem with the aircraft is that it is the heaviest carrier-borne fighter *in current operation *with an empty weight of 17,500 kg *compared to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's 14,600 kg (though it is less than the F-14 Tomcat's weight of 19,800 kg). *Weight problems are compounded when operating off *_*Liaoning*_, as its *STOBAR launch and recovery method further limits payload capacity.* "
> 
> No one wants to burn fuel for no ***** reason on the takeoffffff!



In 2018, the general statement is based on the carriers they had at that time. Without CATOBAR, anything heavier than 60,000lb max take off weight won't be ideal and aircraft designed for low speed stability like FC-31, F/A-18C, Rafale, J-10C would be ideal for lift and also slower carrier approach landing. 

However for Type 003 with EMALS, there's no problem propelling J-15B on full load off the CAT. The shorter launch deck could be China mastered maglev technology better than US.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Checkmate vs FC-31 vs F-35 vs KFX

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## ozranger

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Checkmate vs FC-31 vs F-35 vs KFX
> View attachment 762837


Very short vertical stabilisers for the Checkmate. Its maximum speed can not be very high and high AoA capability should be quite limited, ie. same as F-35, cannot dogfight. 

Of course, truly stealth fighter jets are not supposed to dogfight.

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## kungfugymnast

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Checkmate vs FC-31 vs F-35 vs KFX
> View attachment 762837



Thanks for the comparison. I didn't know there's checkmate stealth fighter until I saw your post. However only China will be called copycat when few other countries copied F-35. 

I just browsed Google for information on Checkmate fighter, the tail fins look like Mig 1.42, I assume this should be Mikoyan Gurevich newest single engine fighter Mig-41.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Thanks for the comparison. I didn't know there's checkmate stealth fighter until I saw your post. However only China will be called copycat when few other countries copied F-35.
> 
> I just browsed Google for information on Checkmate fighter, the tail fins look like Mig 1.42, I assume this should be Mikoyan Gurevich newest single engine fighter Mig-41.




No, it is called Sukhoi LTS = Lightweight Tactical Aircraft
*And now please return to the topic, there is a dedicated thread in the Russian AF section.*

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> No, it is called Sukhoi LTS = Lightweight Tactical Aircraft
> *And now please return to the topic, there is a dedicated thread in the Russian AF section.*



There's Russian military section here?


----------



## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> J-15 will serve on Type 003 CV for sure.


Its means no J-31/J-35...


----------



## sheik

python-000 said:


> Its means no J-31/J-35...



How could you draw that conclusion?
US Navy will be using both F/A-18 and F-35 at the same time for at least two decades.

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## Daniel808

python-000 said:


> Its means no J-31/J-35...



Why not?

Of course, J-35 along with J-15 would be the main composition for Air Strike Group onboard China's Navy CVBG-18

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> There's Russian military section here?



See here:









Russia Teases 'Fundamentally New' Military Aircraft to Be Unveiled


I thought it will be like this but seems I was wrong. Well, I'm sure many were wrong and at least you gave it a shot. That's more than many can say. Since these pics have come out, a lot of prognosticating going on and many have pretty much narrowed down what this aircraft will look like...



defence.pk

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## python-000

sheik said:


> How could you draw that conclusion?
> US Navy will be using both F/A-18 and F-35 at the same time for at least two decades.


I was suppose that maybe China only used J-15 on its 3rd aircraft carrier because the J-31project seems many up's & down.


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## Deino

Daniel808 said:


> Why not?
> 
> Of course, J-35 along with J-15 would be the main composition for Air Strike Group onboard China's Navy CVBG-18
> View attachment 763198




Fully agreed ... Batch 03 is just being delivered, the next (maybe Batch 04) is in production! So the J-15 will surely be the first complement of 003's air wing when it enters service.

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## kungfugymnast

python-000 said:


> I was suppose that maybe China only used J-15 on its 3rd aircraft carrier because the J-31project seems many up's & down.



J-15B will be on all newer upcoming carriers too as the primary missile platform for air to air, anti-ship and air to ground sorties. FC-31 most likely as temporary test bed before China come up with new navalized stealth fighter prototype. Before this, China didn't intend to build anything bigger. Today, seems like they are getting EMALS that could launch heavier aircraft therefore they'll come up with practical long range multirole navalized stealth fighter. The FC-31 upon completion might be sold for export market

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## lcloo

python-000 said:


> I was suppose that maybe China only used J-15 on its 3rd aircraft carrier because the J-31project seems many up's & down.


When J35 comes online, the bigger J15 would be likely used more on strike roles as it can carry larger air to surface missiles under its external pylons. J35 being stealth is better at air superiority. They can compliment each other with different mission roles.

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## Titanium100

Daniel808 said:


> Why not?
> 
> Of course, J-35 along with J-15 would be the main composition for Air Strike Group onboard China's Navy CVBG-18
> View attachment 763198



Is there any set dateline on when it will be introduced?


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## Daniel808

Titanium100 said:


> Is there any set dateline on when it will be introduced?



Many expected, this year

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## Titanium100

Deino said:


> No, it is called Sukhoi LTS = Lightweight Tactical Aircraft
> *And now please return to the topic, there is a dedicated thread in the Russian AF section.*



Is it me or you are mod on many other forums? Specifically I have seen you on Sinodefence also as ''MOD'' there and could also be you are a mod on couple of other places


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## Deino

Titanium100 said:


> Is it me or you are mod on many other forums? Specifically I have seen you on Sinodefence also as ''MOD'' there and could also be you are a mod on couple of other places



Indeed, I‘m a moderator here, at the SDF, the SecretProjectForum and the German FlugzeugForum

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## siegecrossbow

http://www.csaa.org.cn/art/2021/7/23/art_411_178674.html





> *王向明（推荐渠道：航空工业沈阳飞机设计研究所）*，研究员，航空工业沈阳飞机设计研究所项目总设计师，提出基于先进制造的整体主承力部件多约束设计方法，建立翼-身整体部件、铰链式平尾部件，突破结构重量、寿命等极限束缚；提出基于增材制造的飞机结构创新设计、舰载机结构损伤抢修设计方法，建立多种增材创新主承力结构和功能结构，单机用量（重量）高达复合材料的1/7（3%）；建立新机快速试制新模式，在*歼-31、歼-XX*等研制中发挥了核心支撑作用。



At least we know that J-31 and possibly J-35 are official designations.

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## Stealth

Stealth said:


> *You will see J-35 in the next 2 months or maybe less*.......



*@Deino Here is the pic approx 2 months as I stated 2 months ago...*






Enjoy

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## siegecrossbow

Stealth said:


> *@Deino Here is the pic approx 2 months as I stated...*
> 
> View attachment 788584
> 
> 
> Enjoy



Obvious changes I see from FC-31V2.0.

1) F-35 style cockpit with a larger hump behind it.
2) Addition of EOTS window under the nose one.
3) Foldable wings.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Stealth said:


> *@Deino Here is the pic approx 2 months as I stated 2 months ago...*
> 
> View attachment 788584
> 
> 
> Enjoy


I can't wait to see the land-based version. Is it still called J-21? @Deino (and @JamD @kursed )

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Stealth said:


> *@Deino Here is the pic approx 2 months as I stated 2 months ago...*
> 
> View attachment 788584
> 
> 
> Enjoy


Why does it look all CGI work?


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## Stealth

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why does it look all CGI work?


CGI :S ?


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## jaybird

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why does it look all CGI work?



It's because of the low resolution of the image. And also Zarvan demanded the primer color to be green instead of the usual yellow. 

But there are videos of the first flight on twitter already. So, it's real deal. We just have to wait for HD quality pics later time as always.

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## kungfugymnast

Stealth said:


> *@Deino Here is the pic approx 2 months as I stated 2 months ago...*
> 
> View attachment 788584
> 
> 
> Enjoy



You deserved the praises. However, it is not confirmed whether this will be the J-35 or just testbed for Type 003 carrier CATOBAR and landing before designing the J-35

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## Stealth

kungfugymnast said:


> You deserved the praises. However, it is not confirmed whether this will be the J-35 or just testbed for Type 003 carrier CATOBAR and landing before designing the J-35



That was my original post

"You will see J-35 in the next 2 months or maybe less. China already tested J-15 with EMALS multiple times. Catapult launch is only suitable for lightweight aircraft. That’s why the relevance of J-35 is significantly increased in recent times. 003 is almost near completion (apparently in the next 3-4 months). So, this is the right time to perform rigorous platform testing with the right candidate. There is no such aircraft that exists in the entire Chinese inventory that can fit in the category except J-35. So, under the emergency initiatives, the J-35 has been transported to the facility one and a half months ago. I am pretty sure they are gearing up for the testing. Waiting for the images. Soon, the surprise is coming for the Amreekanz!"

I was specifically talking about Carrier-based model

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## BON PLAN

siegecrossbow said:


> Obvious changes I see from FC-31V2.0.
> 
> 1) F-35 style cockpit with a larger hump behind it.
> 2) Addition of EOTS window under the nose one.
> 3) Foldable wings.


A viable F35. 
Without the VSTOL variant that is a burden for A and C model.

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## kungfugymnast

Stealth said:


> That was my original post
> 
> "You will see J-35 in the next 2 months or maybe less. China already tested J-15 with EMALS multiple times. Catapult launch is only suitable for lightweight aircraft. That’s why the relevance of J-35 is significantly increased in recent times. 003 is almost near completion (apparently in the next 3-4 months). So, this is the right time to perform rigorous platform testing with the right candidate. There is no such aircraft that exists in the entire Chinese inventory that can fit in the category except J-35. So, under the emergency initiatives, the J-35 has been transported to the facility one and a half months ago. I am pretty sure they are gearing up for the testing. Waiting for the images. Soon, the surprise is coming for the Amreekanz!"
> 
> I was specifically talking about Carrier-based model



The navalized variant of FC-31 might or might not be the new J-35 being just the testing test bed before designing the new J-35 prototype. If Type 003 EMALS could propel J-15B with maximum takeoff weight at 74,000lb, then J-35 could be made larger to have sidebays. If it's powered by WS13 or WS19 engines, it could get better loitering time and slower carrier landing approach speed. 

Next prediction, What's your bet on J-35 engine of choice? WS-13/19 or WS-10C/15?


----------



## Deino

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I can't wait to see the land-based version. Is it still called J-21? @Deino (and @JamD @kursed )



In fact we only know some rumours but actually I have more the feeling, J-35 is more a number used to mock the US-fan-boys since it would mimic their own F-35 or it is based as on a combination of J-15 (naval fighter) meets J-20 (stealth capabilities) and so 15+20 = 35!

In reality I expect a designation within the J-2Xs range - maybe indeed J-21 for the carrier version and J-22 - another mock against the F-22 - for the PLAAF version, if there will ever be one. And only the 6th generation fighter will have a J-30-number to denote the next generation.





kungfugymnast said:


> The navalized variant of FC-31 might or might not be the new J-35 being just the testing test bed before designing the new J-35 prototype. If Type 003 EMALS could propel J-15B with maximum takeoff weight at 74,000lb, then J-35 could be made larger to have sidebays. If it's powered by WS13 or WS19 engines, it could get better loitering time and slower carrier landing approach speed.
> 
> Next prediction, What's your bet on J-35 engine of choice? WS-13/19 or WS-10C/15?




Actually I don't know why you still question this: There is no way it will use a WS-10/-15 ... and all sources say it uses WS-13/-19.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> In fact we only know some rumours but actually I have more the feeling, J-35 is more a number used to mock the US-fan-boys since it would mimic their own F-35 or it is based as on a combination of J-15 (naval fighter) meets J-20 (stealth capabilities) and so 15+20 = 35!
> 
> In reality I expect a designation within the J-2Xs range - maybe indeed J-21 for the carrier version and J-22 - another mock against the F-22 - for the PLAAF version, if there will ever be one. And only the 6th generation fighter will have a J-30-number to denote the next generation.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I don't know why you still question this: There is no way it will use a WS-10/-15 ... and all sources say it uses WS-13/-19.


I don't understand why they (or anyone) don't use the MTOW for designations. It'd make so much sense.

E.g., call the FC-31/J-31 the F-27 (or F-28).


----------



## Deino

Some artwork (Image via wb/钢铁机机）

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## TOTUU

This video has a lot of information for those who know Chinese.


This 3.0 FC-31 (*Navy version*) carries fewer missiles than the J20, but can carry the same missile size as the J20.
It's supersonic cruise speed is greater than the supersonic cruise speed of J20 and the maximum speed is less than the maximum speed of J20.
Maximum flight speed is greater than Mach 2.2.
Electronic equipment is comparable to J20.
The heaviest anti-ship missile carried is launched at supersonic cruise with a theoretical range of more than 1,000 km.
The aerodynamic shape is more complex than the J20, resulting in more complex flight control software, so the development time is longer than the J20, the development costs are higher than the J20.
The video says that the advantages of the F35 over the FC31 are its large bomb load and long range, and its disadvantages are poor flight performance, weak combat power, and small maximum size of missiles that can be carried. The FC-31 is a high-altitude, high-speed fighter designed to attack the F35, which can be thought of as *a slimmed-down combat version of the F35 *. *the overall performance is ahead of the F35*.



FC-31 2.0 proving aircraft is an export model (*land-based version*) . 3.0 is the 2.0 version of the sea-based type

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## Shotgunner51

kungfugymnast said:


> Next prediction, What's your bet on J-35 engine of choice? WS-13/19 or WS-10C/15?


It's employs two medium-thrust, so WS-10C/15 are completely out of the question.

It's likely WS-13E (twin) now, sometime down the road WS-19 is possible.

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## Stealth

no one knows the exact engine at this moment. IMO, WS13 probably. I am hopeful that we will see new better quality pics with in next few weeks and then we can speculate and assess the engine type.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> In fact we only know some rumours but actually I have more the feeling, J-35 is more a number used to mock the US-fan-boys since it would mimic their own F-35 or it is based as on a combination of J-15 (naval fighter) meets J-20 (stealth capabilities) and so 15+20 = 35!
> 
> In reality I expect a designation within the J-2Xs range - maybe indeed J-21 for the carrier version and J-22 - another mock against the F-22 - for the PLAAF version, if there will ever be one. And only the 6th generation fighter will have a J-30-number to denote the next generation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I don't know why you still question this: There is no way it will use a WS-10/-15 ... and all sources say it uses WS-13/-19.



There is no official confirmation that navalized FC-31 would carry the designation J-31 or J-35. That's why I asked him to predict whether J-35 will be navalized FC-31 or another new fighter


Deino said:


> Some artwork (Image via wb/钢铁机机）
> 
> View attachment 789663



Binkov said the navalized FC-31 would sacrifice rear view visibility probably due to enlarged fuel tank reducing the size of bubble canopy. The navalized FC-31 bubble canopy has some resemblance to early X-35 prototype except with smaller nose radome.


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## kungfugymnast

Shotgunner51 said:


> It's employs two medium-thrust, so WS-10C/15 are completely out of the question.
> 
> It's likely WS-13E (twin) now, sometime down the road WS-19 is possible.



Navalized FC-31 is definitely using WS-13E for the available engine slot being around the size of F/A-18C at 57ft in length. Without the sidebay, it probably carries only 4x air to air missiles internally like F-35C (not practical). Wonder if it comes with internal gun or no gun at all?


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## Clutch



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## Shotgunner51

An overview of the FC-31, J-XY/35 family tree, including the forthcoming expected "land based J-XY/35 variant" but whose lineage we do not fully know if it will be a land variant of J-XY/35, OR a derived variant of FC-31 V2.







Credit https://twitter.com/RickJoe_PLA

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## BON PLAN

TOTUU said:


> Maximum flight speed is greater than Mach 2.2.


Is it so sure? Seing the shape of the 2 vertical fins, it doesn't seem to be tailored for such high speed.


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## TOTUU

BON PLAN said:


> Is it so sure? Seing the shape of the 2 vertical fins, it doesn't seem to be tailored for such high speed.


The host in the video says that a friend of his from AVIC told him that the J35's speed is over Mach 2.2, but the external claim is only Mach 1.8.
The host said that the current version of the j35 is capable of Mach 2.2 thanks to aerodynamic improvements and material advances in recent years.
*I can't judge the credibility of this information.😅*

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## johncliu88

Also, the size of J-35 is larger than the original J-31, so even WS-19 engines are used, the weight of the plane plus the loads will offset the engine thrust. And heavier landing gears, landing hook and etc for carrier based planes will definitely weight more than just the land based version.


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## Deino

johncliu88 said:


> Also, the size of J-35 is larger than the original J-31, so even WS-19 engines are used, the weight of the plane plus the loads will offset the engine thrust. And heavier landing gears, landing hook and etc for carrier based planes will definitely weight more than just the land based version.




Since when is it larger? If you compare the few images available with the FC-31V2 it is more or less the same besides the larger wing and surely different front section. But overall I highly question such reports it might be as large as a Raptor.


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## Deino

Can anyone help to summarise what Chief designer Wang Yongqing noted on the FC-31?



https://weibo.com/1813492294/Mg61nbBVP



From what I gathered via the SDF, he mentioned something like "one machine with three types/variants"!? 

But what are these: naval J-35, land-based variant and export?

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## casual

Deino said:


> Can anyone help to summarise what Chief designer Wang Yongqing noted on the FC-31?
> 
> 
> 
> https://weibo.com/1813492294/Mg61nbBVP
> 
> 
> 
> From what I gathered via the SDF, he mentioned something like "one machine with three types/variants"!?
> 
> But what are these: naval J-35, land-based variant and export?
> 
> View attachment 899505


carrier variant, land based variant, export variant

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## LKJ86



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