# Arjun Mark II : An Israeli View [ Must Read ]



## Chanakyaa

An Interesting Comment ... if u Appreciate Arjun ...

#1 *Arjun is getting massive Israeli help and NOT 6 as being reported in many places in media, but 8 rolled out recently. There are some Armour and rifling techniques which Isreal has taken from India as they were truly impressive. Other than that a lot of contribution from Israel. NO I CAN NOTprove this right now. 
*

*This is what i know after discussing Arjun with a high ranking scientist who is a member of the Foreign defense services board (rough translation from Hebrew) who have worked on Arjun for the last 9 months. I personally witnessed a really cool addition to the recent 8, it employs the exact same copy of the HW and SW as the Abrams self diagnostic system...not only does it tell you when the tank is not feeling well but also tells you which part. *

*there is also a battle management system deployed....the funniest part was how decked up the CO's Arjun was...the seats are amazing, even the Russian contingent (overpaid pricks) were emotionally moved to see the interior with all the widgets - and went the best capitalist tank (being sarc. and all) *

...i think i will be able to SOMEDAY get pictures of the ARJUN M2 and let you folks see what i have seen...it a true comfort to drive that tank
I walk among diffrent circles compared to many out here on the forum and intend to build a reputation where people believe me without much fuss...

as i will not always be able to post links (actually i am too deep into defense to rely on media and links to prove myself). Anyway i am off to a hunting trip organised my some army chaps here in India..will defanately take pictures and post that 

*
#2 You really will have a problem ...say in a desert coming close to this machine. This is a really good machine...the main gun beats the Merkava any day. *

*Bloody hell the shear energy at extended range in ft.lb delivered with the accuracy is truly astonishing...i personally think this main gun is a accidental find for Indian's. the saboy round penetrated the hull of a t-55 derelict then went through the second one behind it and the place where it pierced the sand dune had a formation of glass crystals around the sand.*

_I have an idea (to how the Pakistanis can get it)...when the crew falls to sleep driving this beast - due to its crew comfort...you could run to it and shove some tnt between the hull and the chaise _

*#3 I just saw the interior picture of Al khaled. You have a serious problem here. Is that a prototype or the finished product? I am serious , i really need to know this.*

I truly hope that it is not a finished product. If it is, my god " the very Question that arjune is a better tank is a understatement. You have no idea what you have here lads. Even if the idea is a "will get the job done and cheap to produce" Al Khaled can be mass produced is the idea of Pakistani Armour....etc etc....WHAT ARE YOU GUYS THINKING?

Someone here tell me what is the purpose of Al-k...isit supposed to take on the inferior Indian tanks and put the t-80 against the arjun (still crazy - Russian admit it will eat the t-90) ok maybe its a attempt by Pakistan to atleast get hold of technologies to create a tank..etc etc
the nuts and bolts in alkhalid will kill the crew if a HESH round even nicked it. moreso the LR-APFSDS will cut like butter the armour....you guys better get some good reactive armour on this tiny thing. please any experts here.. 
i really wish to ask some questions on the al-khaled. 

#4 I*ncidentally my father worked on a series of Merkava tanks (yes yes i am a Jew) i too graduated with honors in Armour. but right now in a slightly different objective in India. anyway i agree with you maneuver is imp. 

BUT THEN AGAIN in all the discussion i have seen here maneuver is something gone a miss here. i havent driven a al -k but this arjun is as maneuverable as a Abram M2(spent a lot of my time with these tanks) ..no bloody difference, i dont know maybe al-khalid is much better compared to A-M2 in maneuver.*

* You will outrange it...by what 5000m from a reflexes Chinese copy of soviet projectile...do you think no one here thought of ATGM and countermeasure. This is the classified bit in electronics Israeli gave to Arjun. I am telling you buddy, someone better get serious about countering Arjun...its mere prototype passed direct hits from t-90 AP rounds (new round), it passed fragmented top attack munitions, You want to kill it.*

*a) you need to get it tracks off 
b) in some way get the electronics off
c) hit it at less than 200 m from something like a Milan 3 repeatedly in hopefully the same area or
d)put a huge mine under it (has counter electronic to detect it...direct contribution from what is to be a Merkava 4 system)
e) i would have a serious debate going against this tank on a Merkava 3 and i am honors in armour and spent a few.*

I* think the brits will be very very interested in the armour these people have developed or even the rednecks....thats the level and quality you are looking at*

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## BlueDot_in_Space

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! Sounds awesome. Can you reveal you source?? We must get these beasts in numbers and kick out all the Russian tin cans. I read development on active protection system in some DRDO publication. I think its similar to trophy.


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## saumyasupratik

^The source is some defence forum member going by the name Denel.

Don't know if all this is correct or not.


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## IndianTiger

Its ture or just cover up..


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## blackops

I have read his post in differnt defence forum and have read this one to and i think so he is saying all trouth we all know what arjun did to t 90 and then the army orderd more of arjun to hide there face he is also a respectable member in many forums


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## blackops

IndianTiger said:


> Its ture or just cover up..


 
Cover up for what we all know arjun out runed the t90 and just take out a pic of arjun and see its armour thickness


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## GORKHALI

but it'll be better if we some link here.


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## KS

XiNiX is back with a bang

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## Chanakyaa

Sorry for the absence guys...

Im here ...

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## Frank Martin

Good to read it  ..send this to some IA officials too


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## dabong1

So basically the isreali have made "your" tank?

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## Kinetic

*I knew a guy called Deniel from Israel on KeyPub forum 6/7 years ago. He said many things about India-Israel cooperation specially regarding Arjun. Much before the news of Arjun firing LAHAT came into news, he revealed that on forum. He also posted pics of him standing on Arjun, Kilo submarine etc and of course face blurred! *

So this might be true.

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## Capt.Popeye

dabong1 said:


> So basically the isreali have made "your" tank?


 
No, it was the Somalis, Quick gun. Have you even bothered to *read* the OP to start with? And if you are indeed able to check out the net to see who put what into the tank.

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## Kinetic

*As I thought this is very old news from 2004. *

This is from Keypub forum posted by an Israeli guy.

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## Capt.Popeye

Kinetic said:


> *I knew a guy called Deniel from Israel on KeyPub forum 6/7 years ago. He said many things about India-Israel cooperation specially regarding Arjun. Much before the news of Arjun firing LAHAT came into news, he revealed that on forum. He also posted pics of him standing on Arjun, Kilo submarine etc and of course face blurred! *
> 
> So this might be true.


 
Have followed that guys posts else where also. There is also the matter of a certain Israeli Maj. Gen. (who is known as the father of their tanks) who was in India in 2010 and was on record with his views on the Arjun. One of the things that the Israelis were interested in was the "Kanchan" armor.


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## Kinetic

Capt.Popeye said:


> Have followed that guys posts else where also. There is also the matter of a certain Israeli Maj. Gen. (who is known as the father of their tanks) who was in India in 2010 and was on record with his views on the Arjun. One of the things that the Israelis were interested in was the "Kanchan" armor.


 
You are right, not only Kanchan armor they were so impressed by the tank that they named it 'desert ferrari'. Now IA hired them to 'certify' the tank!!! Isn't that ironic!!!

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## Abingdonboy

dabong1 said:


> So basically the isreali have made "your" tank?



How do you get _that_ from what you just _supposedly_ read?? 

The article clearly states how the ISREALIS were impressed by the INDIAN developments on the tank :
- The reactive armour
-The hydraulic system
-The rifle and gun development


Either you are a complete idiot who is unable to speak and understand plain English or you are an ignorant troll who will argue against ALL Indian achievements no matter what they are because of your own insecurities about your own country (don't hide behind your false flag we all know who you represent)

So which one is it (I person all think we know the answer!)

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## JonAsad

On paper it was suppose to be the best tank in south asia- but it is not-
can you guys post some credible source?
or its just another "welcome me back" thread" to collect more thanks?

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## Kinetic

Glorious Resolve said:


> On paper it was suppose to be the best tank in south asia- *but it is not-*
> can you guys post some credible source?
> or its just another "welcome me back" thread?


 
As you already made up your mind, than why searching for source?

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## KS

Glorious Resolve said:


> On paper it was suppose to be the best tank in south asia- but it is not-
> can you guys post some credible source?
> or its just another "welcome me back" thread?


 
Few minutes that are spent in reading the opening post fully and understanding it before hitting the reply button is TIME WELL SPENT.


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## Kompromat

Where is the Link for this article?

The language used in the article doesn't sound of a professional but a street vendor , this person has never been in An Alkhalid but still he has words to say which truly is nothing more than assumptions on how capable AK really is against Arjunk.

Pakistan Army *Refused M1 Abrahams* , you could tell the level of our expectations from a tank such as Al Khalid. Army would never mass produce a tank which never met operational requirements and proved itself in the battlefield.



> Arjun a has a bigger engine but weights over 13 tonnes more than Al Khalid.
> 
> Speed is almost the same of both tanks.
> 
> Arjun has a 120mm main rifled tank gun which has to be loaded "mannually" where Al Khalid has an Automatic Loading 125mm smooth bore gun.
> 
> The operational range is almost ideantical of both vehicles.
> 
> Both vehicles use Night vision and Thermal imaging devices to acquire Targets.
> 
> Al Khalid uses Data link which can communicate Tank footage and vital coordinates with other units around ie UAV/UCAVs , APCs , Fighter Jets , Cobra Gunships and artilliry command centers.
> 
> Arjun has no Data link , not that i am aware of at least !
> 
> Both vehicles carry similar 7.62mm and 12.7mm Machine guns.
> 
> Both can fire Guided Missiles from their main gun.
> 
> Al Khalid has a power-to-weight ratio of 26.66 hp/tonne gives acceleration from 0 to 32 km/h (0 to 20 mph) in 10 seconds and a maximum speed of 70 km/h, the speed and agility also helping to improve survivability which is greater than that of Arjun's.
> 
> Al Khalid has a Rate of fire/minute of 8 where Arjun's Rate of fire/minute is 6.
> 
> Al Khalid has been in Mass production which Arjun is yet to see , so far as many as 220 Al Khalid and Al Khalid 01 have been delivered to Pakistan Army.
> 
> Al Khalid takes only 3 crew to operate the Machine while Arjun Takes 4 hence making it more expensive to operate , heavy and risks more lives.



Israelis have a history of exaggerating their hardware , i mean let me ask if Arjun is better than merkava in the mind of our little Israeli , why doesn't israeli military buy this super dooper Tank to replace their merkava which is now considered to be a failure ?

All of you Indians can have fun with thinking that "oh yea this Israeli fellow isn't talking nonsense - Arjun is much better than Al Khalid " -- all of the above quoted comparison is based on FACTS not Assumptions and only a battle will tell who has more guts - till then go to sleep and have sweet dreams about Arjuns superiority over Al Khalid while we work on a newer much advanced Al Khalid II.

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## GUNS-N- ROSES

i have always been confident abt arjun's abilities ever since it beat t-90 in competetion. i can vouch for only one thing first hand, the interiors r really comfy.


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## IND151

Karthic Sri said:


> XiNiX is back with a bang


 
*not with bang but with hydrogen bomb that gonna throw many out of chair.*

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## Abingdonboy

Black Blood said:


> Where is the Link for this article?
> 
> The language used in the article doesn't sound of a professional but a street vendor , this person has never been in An Alkhalid but still he has words to say which truly is nothing more than assumptions on how capable AK really is against Arjunk.
> 
> Pakistan Army *Refused M1 Abrahams* , you could tell the level of our expectations from a tank such as Al Khalid. Army would never mass produce a tank which never met operational requirements and proved itself in the battlefield.
> 
> 
> 
> Israelis have a history of exaggerating their hardware , i mean let me ask if Arjunk is better than merkava in the mind of our little Israeli , why doesn't israeli buy this super dooper Tank to replace their merkava which is now considered to be a failure ?
> 
> All of you Indians can have fun with thinking that "oh yea this israeli fellow isn't talking nonsense - Arjunk is much better than Al Khalid " -- all of the above quoted comparison is based on FACTS not Assumptions and only a battle will tell who has more guts - till then go to sleep and have sweet dreams about Arjunks superiority over Al Khalid while we work on a newer much advanced Al Khalid II.



Yeah the Pakistani army rejected the Abrams because there's no way in hell that you could afford to buy more than about 12 of them, the fuel costs alone would cripple their budget as either you chose the diesel powered version which Australia, Saud, Eygpt and Kuwait use which is like 8 GALLONS A MILE or the gas turbine jet engine which the U.S Army uses which is about the same but is MUCH more powerful but jet fuel costs about 4 times that of normal diesel. 

Don't make out it was because it didn't meet your 'stringent' technical requirements but the Al-Khalid did, there is no SANE expert on earth who would say the Al-Khalid was better than the Abrams, it was simply down to $$$

India on the other hand could probably afford the Abrams in relatively large numbers (the Arjun costs only slightly less than the Abrams) but chose to develop an indigenous tank instead because that is their strategy- to try and make as much indigenous hardware as possible + the fact that when the Arjun development started (late 1980s) India's finances were in a bit of a pickle and their relationship with the US was not as strong as it is today.

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## JonAsad

> I have an idea (to how the Pakistanis can get it)...when the crew falls to sleep driving this beast - due to its crew comfort...you could run to it and shove some tnt between the hull and the chaise
> 
> #3 I just saw the interior picture of Al khaled. You have a serious problem here. Is that a prototype or the finished product? I am serious , i really need to know this.
> 
> I truly hope that it is not a finished product. If it is, my god " the very Question that arjune is a better tank is a understatement. You have no idea what you have here lads. Even if the idea is a "will get the job done and cheap to produce" Al Khaled can be mass produced is the idea of Pakistani Armour....etc etc....WHAT ARE YOU GUYS THINKING?
> 
> Someone here tell me what is the purpose of Al-k...isit supposed to take on the inferior Indian tanks and put the t-80 against the arjun (still crazy - Russian admit it will eat the t-90) ok maybe its a attempt by Pakistan to atleast get hold of technologies to create a tank..etc etc
> the nuts and bolts in alkhalid will kill the crew if a HESH round even nicked it. moreso the LR-APFSDS will cut like butter the armour....you guys better get some good reactive armour on this tiny thing. please any experts here..
> i really wish to ask some questions on the al-khaled.



This is the reason i dont believe it- it looks like a fan boy trying to amuse 1 billion fan boys of india- and doing a pretty good job-

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## blackops

Glorious Resolve said:


> This is the reason i dont believe it- it looks like a fan boy trying to amuse 1 billion fan boys of india- and doing a pretty good job-


 
Its a fair reason brother just like single engine jet and twin engines ones. Single engines are cheaper than twin ones but are less reliable to in the same way al khalid is cheaper and meant to be produced in numbers to counter the threat


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## sudhir007

XiNiX -- Welcome back and i dnt believe you will come with that exciting thread. You always Rock Brother. 
HEAD OF YOU from my both hand

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## JonAsad

blackops said:


> Its a fair reason brother just like single engine jet and twin engines ones. Single engines are cheaper than twin ones but are less reliable to in the same way al khalid is cheaper and meant to be produced in numbers to counter the threat


 
Bhai- read the post of black blood- Al-Khalid the cheaper tank has more fire power than Arjun k a expensive tank-


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## IND151

Abingdonboy said:


> Yeah the Pakistani army rejected the Abrams because there's no way in hell that you could afford to buy more than about 12 of them, the fuel costs alone would cripple their budget as either you chose the diesel powered version which Australia, Saud, Eygpt and Kuwait use which is like 8 GALLONS A MILE or the gas turbine jet engine which the U.S Army uses which is about the same but is MUCH more powerful but jet fuel costs about 4 times that of normal diesel.
> 
> *Don't make out it was because it didn't meet your 'stringent' technical requirements but the Al-Khalid did, there is no SANE expert on earth who would say the Al-Khalid was better than the Abrams*, it was simply down to $$$
> 
> India on the other hand could probably afford the Abrams in relatively large numbers (the Arjun costs only slightly less than the Abrams) but chose to develop an indigenous tank instead because that is their strategy- to try and make as much indigenous hardware as possible + the fact that when the Arjun development started (late 1980s) India's finances were in a bit of a pickle and their relationship with the US was not as strong as it is today.


 
i hope *black blood* doesn't turn into red due to fury after reading this post.


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## JonAsad

IND151 said:


> i hope *black blood* doesn't turn into red due to fury after reading this post.


 
Yup these type of posts cheer you up- exactly this is what the fan boy in OP did- Keep on cheering- reality gonna struck later-


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## Chanakyaa

A Picture Says a Thousand Words !!!

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## Dalai Lama

^^^

Sorry for the stupid question but what's the difference between rifled vs. a smooth bore main armament type?


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## rcrmj

only fan boys actually believe in these crap` if Arjun is that good why india ordered more than 250 of T-90s?? its so surprising that so many people actually buy this article. all we looking for is a creditable source, reading through the whole artile i dont see any but sheer 'personal' ideas.

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## Capt.Popeye

TheDeletedUser said:


> ^^^
> 
> Sorry for the stupid question but what's the difference between rifled vs. a smooth bore main armament type?


 
Accuracy among other things. But do 'google' "rifled bore guns"; you can get an explanation as good as any.

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## indushek

Welcome back Xinix , long time no see. Its good to have you back bro.

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## Dalai Lama

rcrmj said:


> only fan boys actually believe in these crap` if Arjun is that good why india ordered more than 250 of T-90s?? its so surprising that so many people actually buy this article. all we looking for is a creditable source, reading through the whole artile i dont see any but sheer 'personal' ideas.



The article does state that it is the personal view of an Israeli. Anyway look at the above image to see the stats for yourself. As for why the IA didn't order more. I'm left wondering the same...


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## JonAsad

XiNiX said:


> A Picture Says a Thousand Words !!!


 
You are comparing a so called new, still not fully operational arjun tank with already established- tried and tested decade old tanks- its more like comparing LCA with Mirages- or Kfir


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## Lord Of Gondor

I had read this article on *** posted by a credible member couple of months ago but due to the non-availability of a source i refrained from posting it...also he(denel) talked about israel's extensive involvement in testing the tank...


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## Lord Of Gondor

Glorious Resolve said:


> You are comparing a so called new, still not fully operational arjun tank with already established- tried and tested decade old tanks- its more like comparing LCA with Mirages- or Kfir


 
Arjun is in active service...


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## Dalai Lama

Here's what I found.

Purple = Smoothbore
Green = Rifled bore
Pink = Polygonal

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## JonAsad

TheDeletedUser said:


> The article does state that it is the personal view of an Israeli. Anyway look at the above image to see the stats for yourself. As for why the IA didn't order more. I'm left wondering the same...


 
a simple more likely guess will be that T-90s are better than arjuns- your patriotism will not let you believe the obvious- and its natural- but doesn't change the realities- it just makes your inner ego happy-


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## JonAsad

Bharadwaj said:


> Arjun is in active service...


 
I know that- whats your MBT then?


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## Dalai Lama

Glorious Resolve said:


> a simple more likely guess will be that T-90s are better than arjuns- your patriotism will not let you believe the obvious- and its natural- but doesn't change the realities- it just makes your inner ego happy-


 

Thank's for the insight into my mind! Now, tell me where I claimed that Arjun is a better tank?


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## Hulk

I don't beleive in all the fanboy stuff. It might be a good tank, hope for best.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Glorious Resolve said:


> I know that- whats your MBT then?


we unfortunately have three of them T-72 ajeya,T-90 Bhishma And CVRDE Arjun!but the T-72's will be replaced with FMBT beyond 2018.........


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## sirius4u

TheDeletedUser said:


> Here's what I found.
> 
> Purple = Smoothbore
> Green = Rifled bore
> Pink = Polygonal


 
A rifled bore is nothing but a rifled gun enlarged. It has a groove inside it which induces torque in the projectile while firing it, to improve its accuracy in long range flight.
Whereas a smooth bore does not have any grooves inside it and hence don't induce torque to the projectile. 
The downside of using a rifled gun is that the grooves get worn out pretty soon and hence have to replace it frequently. 

I was briefed about the hydraulic system of the Arjun last week by the man who designed it himself and I tel you. It is the best in the world. But I cant provide you guys any links for it.

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## Dalai Lama

sirius4u said:


> A rifled bore is nothing but a rifled gun enlarged. It has a groove inside it which induces torque in the projectile while firing it, to improve its accuracy in long range flight.
> Whereas a smooth bore does not have any grooves inside it and hence don't induce torque to the projectile.
> The downside of using a rifled gun is that the grooves get worn out pretty soon and hence have to replace it frequently.
> 
> I was briefed about the hydraulic system of the Arjun last week by the man who designed it himself and I tel you. It is the best in the world. But I cant provide you guys any links for it.



Can i ask, what cross-section shape does the Arjun's rifle have?


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## Chanakyaa

Glorious Resolve said:


> a simple more likely guess will be that T-90s are better than arjuns- your patriotism will not let you believe the obvious- and its natural- but doesn't change the realities- it just makes your inner ego happy-


 
Left: With Maj Gen HM Singh, who spent three decades of his career as a tankman, guiding the Arjun development

Right: A comparative chart, snapped by me at the CVRDE, Chennai, comparing the performance of the Arjun with the world's major Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) 

[Ajai Shukla] India&#8217;s home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.
The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometers of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least ten rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks&#8217; ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.
*The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.*
&#8220;The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen&#8221;, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. &#8220;As the army&#8217;s tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities.&#8221;
With the trial report still being compiled --- it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight --- neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.
The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the army&#8217;s senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.
Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was: 124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the army&#8217;s fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the army&#8217;s handful of Arjuns.
&#8220;The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjun&#8217;s strong performance&#8221;, an army officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. &#8220;But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.&#8221;
The army&#8217;s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.
Now, confronted with the Arjun&#8217;s demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.
The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the army&#8217;s 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).
Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the army&#8217;s assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjun&#8217;s development for decades, &#8220;If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.&#8221;
The {ln:mbt-arjun
Arjun}&#8217;s sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun --- with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection --- be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the army&#8217;s strike corps for performing a tank&#8217;s most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.
But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say that the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.


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## GORKHALI

Glorious Resolve said:


> I know that- whats your MBT then?


 
alrite so you people now even started skeptism about israeli things?? Merkava is bad tank and Al Khalid is a good tank 
*here my version Merkava is a bad tank for terrorist and intruders and Al khalid is a good tank for enemy who loves to turkey shoot * sheer patrotism should be avoided in a world class products ...


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## Hulk

sirius4u said:


> A rifled bore is nothing but a rifled gun enlarged. It has a groove inside it which induces torque in the projectile while firing it, to improve its accuracy in long range flight.
> Whereas a smooth bore does not have any grooves inside it and hence don't induce torque to the projectile.
> The downside of using a rifled gun is that the grooves get worn out pretty soon and hence have to replace it frequently.
> 
> I was briefed about the hydraulic system of the Arjun last week by the man who designed it himself and I tel you. *It is the best in the world*. But I cant provide you guys any links for it.



About the bold part, those words are used loosely, it should have been better if we called one of the best in world. Best in world sounds more fanboy. I get concerned when my fellow countrymen get's over exicited.

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## Chanakyaa

self delete


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## tallboy123

Don't worry guys they won;t accept,when arjun mark 2 will be out with specs..then lets talk...


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## sirius4u

indianrabbit said:


> About the bold part, those words are used loosely, it should have been better if we called one of the best in world. Best in world sounds more fanboy. I get concerned when my fellow countrymen get's over exicited.


 
I meant what I said.


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## JonAsad

TheDeletedUser said:


> Thank's for the insight into my mind! Now, tell me where I claimed that Arjun is a better tank?


 
This thread is not about you- and where did i claim you were saying that? i was talking about general indian public-


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## JonAsad

Bharadwaj said:


> we unfortunately have three of them T-72 ajeya,T-90 Bhishma And CVRDE Arjun!but the T-72's will be replaced with FMBT beyond 2018.........


 Bro- be practice- give me one- as it should be-


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## GORKHALI

Black Blood said:


> Where is the Link for this article?
> 
> The language used in the article doesn't sound of a professional but a street vendor , this person has never been in An Alkhalid but still he has words to say which truly is nothing more than assumptions on how capable AK really is against Arjunk.
> 
> Pakistan Army *Refused M1 Abrahams* , you could tell the level of our expectations from a tank such as Al Khalid. Army would never mass produce a tank which never met operational requirements and proved itself in the battlefield.
> 
> 
> 
> Israelis have a history of exaggerating their hardware , i mean let me ask if Arjun is better than merkava in the mind of our little Israeli , why doesn't israeli military buy this super dooper Tank to replace their merkava which is now considered to be a failure ?
> 
> P.S-only chinese products are world class like JF17,J10...
> 
> All of you Indians can have fun with thinking that "oh yea this Israeli fellow isn't talking nonsense - Arjun is much better than Al Khalid " -- all of the above quoted comparison is based on FACTS not Assumptions and only a battle will tell who has more guts - till then go to sleep and have sweet dreams about Arjuns superiority over Al Khalid while we work on a newer much advanced Al Khalid II.


for now Compare T 72 to al khalid 
When you have advanced Al kha lide then come to us btw Arjun mk2 is here ,ready for trails (some one plz give him creadible link /sleeping pills so he can sleep well)...

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## Dalai Lama

Glorious Resolve said:


> This thread is not about you- and where did i claim you were saying that? i was talking about general indian public-


 
No sh*t! This thread isn't about me. Well done! Then why did you direct your statements at me by quoting me?


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## SEAL

ArjunK is better than AL-Khalid like LCA is better than JF-17.

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## GORKHALI

Glorious Resolve said:


> This thread is not about you- and where did i claim you were saying that? i was talking about general indian public-


 
you should be better care about general pakistan public mate... Most of pakistani open threads claiming Pakistan rejected F 18 or abhram because it failed to qualify but the truth it failed to qualify when it comes to operiatonal cost. 
P.S- prove me wrong with official pakistan /american statement ...


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## Capt.Popeye

TheDeletedUser said:


> Can i ask, what cross-section shape does the Arjun's rifle have?



The Arjun has a rifled gun, a design concept that appealed to both British and Indian designers respectively. And there was a reason for it. Both Armies used HESH ammo among the range of ammo in use--HEAT, AFSPDS etc. Now HESH was an ammo developed for anti-tank use before the advent of "chobham" composite sandwich armor. Later HESH was found to be effective against heavily built up structures, a sort of bunker buster. The other types of ammo are quite ineffective against built up structures, e.g. HEAT rounds will not do anything much to fortifications. So it is a matter of doctrinal use.

Of course, what *sirius4u* has written is correct. Rifled guns are more difficult and expensive to make and need earlier replacement than smooth-bore guns. Now with rapid and exponential development of various kind of missiles from different launch vehicles and modes; there will begin a discussion on the eventual life of the "big guns" on tanks and other armored vehicles.

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## JonAsad

TheDeletedUser said:


> No sh*t! This thread isn't about me. Well done! Then why did you direct your statements at me by quoting me?


 
For a guy- who cannot know the difference- first part of my post was for you- the later for every body else- now again come up with a lame excuse- i am waiting- what you didn't get?- Explain

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## gowthamraj

Welcome back xinix    


Back with fire :

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## GORKHALI

fox said:


> ArjunK is better than AL-Khalid like LCA is better than JF-17.


 
@ glorius: here's your 1st example mate !! I never seen him before posting substantial in any thread ,just hoping and jumping ,laughing like stup (did i missed anything??)

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## Water Car Engineer

> till then go to sleep and have sweet dreams about Arjuns superiority over Al Khalid while *we work on a newer much advanced Al Khalid II. *



What? India isnt making a Mark 2? Matter a fact there will be another tank after mark 2 India will be working on. Its India's second tank...

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## Developereo

XiNiX said:


> Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns.
> [...]
> the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently.
> [...]
> But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps.


 
Fanboys quoting fanboys notwithstanding, the above are the only facts that matter.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Glorious Resolve said:


> Bro- be practice- give me one- as it should be-


nope our strike corps consists of both the T's and is complemented by the Arjun's which are lesser in number.......


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## JonAsad

PANDORA said:


> you should be better care about general pakistan public mate... Most of pakistani open threads claiming Pakistan rejected F 18 or abhram because it failed to qualify but the truth it failed to qualify when it comes to operiatonal cost.
> P.S- prove me wrong with official pakistan /american statement ...


 
PANDORA go to your BOX mate- you are trolling- off topic-

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## saumyasupratik

What are the armour specifications of the Arjun?

Also what APFDS rounds are used and what is their penetration capabilities?

Heard the Al Khalid can't take in the Long Rod penetrators is that true?The longest Chinese APFDS round is 560mm (Quoted from Zraver http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-f...-number-tanks-pakistan-army-6.html#post442074) long being used on their tanks so is it the same for the Al Khalids as well?


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## JonAsad

Bharadwaj said:


> nope our strike corps consists of both the T's and is complemented by the Arjun's which are lesser in number.......


 
Yup- but there is only one dedicated MBT- is arjun 1?

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## sathya

fox said:


> ArjunK is better than AL-Khalid like LCA is better than JF-17.


 
 
who is imagining ?


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## Lord Of Gondor

saumyasupratik said:


> What are the armour specifications of the Arjun?
> 
> Also what APFDS rounds are used and what is their penetration capapbilites?
> 
> Heard the Al Khalid can't take in the Long Rod penetrators is that true?The longest Chinese APFDS round is 560mm long being used on their tanks so is it the same for the Al Khalids as well?


I do not know about the pak tanks but Arjun has Kanchan composite armour which has passed all tests including withstanding a direct hit from a Bhishma...the armour is also used on our IFV(?)


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## sathya

Sohni Dharti said:


> Fanboys quoting fanboys notwithstanding, the above are the only facts that matter.


 
thats pretty old news.....
new one is 246 mk 1 ordered
surprisingly mk 2 is already ready..


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## Lord Of Gondor

Glorious Resolve said:


> Yup- but there is only one dedicated MBT- is arjun 1?


 
is it necessary to have just one dedicated mbt,if yes then why? And if not,then your question has been answered......:wink:

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## KS

Sohni Dharti said:


> Fanboys quoting fanboys notwithstanding, the above are the only facts that matter.


 
Ever heard of the world Russian Lobbying and the word corruption ??

Arjun is a victim of it at the hands of the top brass in the Army which for no sane reason seems to be in love with the Russian imported products after it has been repeatedly proved that even the vannila version of Arjun (MkI) outgunned and outran T-90 in the comparitive trials.


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## saumyasupratik

Bharadwaj said:


> I do not know about the pak tanks but Arjun has Kanchan composite armour which has passed all tests including withstanding a direct hit from a Bhishma...the armour is also used on our IFV(?)



We've all heard that but what are it's armour specs in RHA of the Kanchan?Also the DRDO guys never told us what are the penetration capabilities of the Israeli 125mm APFDS rounds is.I think we use the M711 Tungsten APFDS round.It has a penetration value of 560mm RHA at 2km.

IFV?It was only used on the Abhay which was experimental.


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## JonAsad

Bharadwaj said:


> is it necessary to have just one dedicated mbt,if yes then why? And if not,then your question has been answered......:wink:


 
never mind!!

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## DeathGod

I am quite skeptical about these claims ... Sounds too good to be true... 

1.For starters , I dont expect any nation , be it India or anyone else to develop their 1st tank and end up making it better than a proven platform like T-90. 

2. How is it possible that India without any knowledge of making armors comes up with Kanchan whom many claim is better than the Chobam on British Challenger. Not a single Challenger has been destoryed in Iraq or Afg, which bores testimony to its armor. The british have been developing tanks since WW-1. Dont know how valid the claim of Kanchan being better than Chobam will ring true. For me , it maybe possible but not probable.

3. Also , dont think the argument " We took help from foreign players and it incorporates the best technologies " stands true for me... The big question is that why will one nation share its most cutting edge technology with another. What usually a country will do is to provide some kind of expertise on a technology that maybe latest now but will be soon replaced by a new one that they are developing.

4. AFAIK the gun is an imported one , Guess its the Rheinmetal 120 mm rifled one , which definitely is the best in the league. Not sure if we have the capability to produce the same in India yet. Please let me know if its the case. Will make my day.

5. Night Vision and IR systems in the tank are hardly battle proven and as we all know that real test of any system ( even IT softwares ) is when they are fielded. AFAIK in the desert trials there wasnt any night time fighting.

6. Not sure about the engine too. Heard it breaks down every now and then , which might not be surprising given our failed attempts with Kaveri and the like.(Agree that Kaveri is a Jet engine while Arjun's is most probably a diesel-turbine engine but still dont think the engine manufacturing capabilities are mature)

I dont have any link or proof or any evidence to support all this and I might well be wrong in everything I have written but its just what I have been able to deduce with my limited knowledge and insight. 

Welcome everyone to disprove me and provide reliable links. 

Lastly , as mentioned earlier... The real test will be on the battlefield. We should maybe deploy some in Iraq and see for itself

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## Lord Of Gondor

saumyasupratik said:


> We've all heard that but what are it's armour specs in RHA of the Kanchan?Also the DRDO guys never told us what are the penetration capabilities of the Israeli 125mm APFDS rounds is.I think we use the M711 Tungsten APFDS round.It has a penetration value of 560mm RHA at 2km.
> 
> IFV?It was only used on the Abhay which was experimental.


Bro,I used wiki to gather information on the Kanchan armour.So,you might be aware that the RHA specifics are a closely guarded secret.I also used the DRDO website but couldn't find appropriate answers!!!


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## Lord Of Gondor

DeathGod said:


> I am quite skeptical about these claims ... Sounds too good to be true...
> 
> 1.For starters , I dont expect any nation , be it India or anyone else to develop their 1st tank and end up making it better than a proven platform like T-90.
> 
> 2. How is it possible that India without any knowledge of making armors comes up with Kanchan whom many claim is better than the Chobam on British Challenger. Not a single Challenger has been destoryed in Iraq or Afg, which bores testimony to its armor. The british have been developing tanks since WW-1. Dont know how valid the claim of Kanchan being better than Chobam will ring true. For me , it maybe possible but not probable.
> 
> 3. Also , dont think the argument " We took help from foreign players and it incorporates the best technologies " stands true for me... The big question is that why will one nation share its most cutting edge technology with another. What usually a country will do is to provide some kind of expertise on a technology that maybe latest now but will be soon replaced by a new one that they are developing.
> 
> 4. AFAIK the gun is an imported one , Guess its the Rheinmetal 120 mm rifled one , which definitely is the best in the league. Not sure if we have the capability to produce the same in India yet. Please let me know if its the case. Will make my day.
> 
> 5. Night Vision and IR systems in the tank are hardly battle proven and as we all know that real test of any system ( even IT softwares ) is when they are fielded. AFAIK in the desert trials there wasnt any night time fighting.
> 
> 6. Not sure about the engine too. Heard it breaks down every now and then , which might not be surprising given our failed attempts with Kaveri and the like.(Agree that Kaveri is a Jet engine while Arjun's is most probably a diesel-turbine engine but still dont think the engine manufacturing capabilities are mature)
> 
> I dont have any link or proof or any evidence to support all this and I might well be wrong in everything I have written but its just what I have been able to deduce with my limited knowledge and insight.
> 
> Welcome everyone to disprove me and provide reliable links.
> 
> Lastly , as mentioned earlier... The real test will be on the battlefield. We should maybe deploy some in Iraq and see for itself


 
The engine is German,not Indian!!!It had issues with the mating of transmission but it is sorted out.Also night trials were held as Army is not made up of D***s to wait for 30 years and induct a night blind tank.The rifled gun and turret is completely ours and not German...The armour is rumoured to be better than the British Chobam,but considering the fact that it can withstand a direct hit from a T-90 it can be considered SAFE for combat duty.Please go through appropriate threads to unearth more information..............Also the T-90 is a good tank but it is not the ultimate.Also 30 years of research by dedicated(?) scientists is now the Arjun!!!!The fact that it is in active service proves my point.

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## Kinetic

DeathGod said:


> I am quite skeptical about these claims ... Sounds too good to be true...



All of your thoughts are so called, "how can India do that"!!!!! lol 



> 1.For starters , I dont expect any nation , be it India or anyone else to develop their 1st tank and end up making it better than a proven platform like T-90.



Many speculated that but comparative trials shows that T-90S is no match for Arjun. What makes T-90S proven but not Arjun?



> 2. How is it possible that India without any knowledge of making armors comes up with Kanchan whom many claim is better than the Chobam on British Challenger. Not a single Challenger has been destoryed in Iraq or Afg, which bores testimony to its armor. The british have been developing tanks since WW-1. Dont know how valid the claim of Kanchan being better than Chobam will ring true. For me , it maybe possible but not probable.



Because Kanchan has done well in trials, thats not probable but proven. 



> 3. Also , dont think the argument " We took help from foreign players and it incorporates the best technologies " stands true for me... The big question is that why will one nation share its most cutting edge technology with another. What usually a country will do is to provide some kind of expertise on a technology that maybe latest now but will be soon replaced by a new one that they are developing.



No one claimed foreign systems make Arjun capable. So its BS. 



> 4. AFAIK the gun is an imported one , Guess its the Rheinmetal 120 mm rifled one , which definitely is the best in the league. Not sure if we have the capability to produce the same in India yet. Please let me know if its the case. Will make my day.



Nope, thats a total lie. The gun is developed in house by DRDO. Where did you got the info that the gun is from Rheinmetal? 



> 5. Night Vision and IR systems in the tank are hardly battle proven and as we all know that real test of any system ( even IT softwares ) is when they are fielded. AFAIK in the desert trials there wasnt any night time fighting.



lol Your T-90S's night vision and IR systems failed repeatedly in hot condition of desert but Arjun have no such problem. If there have been a night fighting during the trial than T-90S would have done much worse than Arjun. 




> 6. Not sure about the engine too. Heard it breaks down every now and then , which might not be surprising given our failed attempts with Kaveri and the like.(Agree that Kaveri is a Jet engine while Arjun's is most probably a diesel-turbine engine but still dont think the engine manufacturing capabilities are mature)



lol Another lie! Where did you heard that the engine broke down now and then? The engine is from MTU, same used in Leopard-2. Kaveri has completed high altitude tests successfully. 



> *I dont have any link or proof or any evidence to support all this and I might well be wrong in everything I have written but its just what I have been able to deduce with my limited knowledge and insight. *



Thats the only part you have said truth, unless imagination in rests. 



> Welcome everyone to disprove me and provide reliable links.


A simple google will give you lots of info. Start with these...

Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90



> Lastly , as mentioned earlier... The real test will be on the battlefield. We should maybe deploy some in Iraq and see for itself


Arjun have been deployed in the deserts of Rajasthan. They have proved well there. 







In your words to make a weapons 'battle proven' we may need to attack some country!!!!

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## 500

Black Blood said:


> Pakistan Army *Refused M1 Abrahams* , you could tell the level of our expectations from a tank such as Al Khalid. Army would never mass produce a tank which never met operational requirements and proved itself in the battlefield.


As *Abingdonboy* noted Abrams is 3 times more expensive to prosecute and about same times more expensive to maintain.



> Israelis have a history of exaggerating their hardware , i mean let me ask if Arjun is better than merkava in the mind of our little Israeli , why doesn't israeli military buy this super dooper Tank to replace their merkava which is now considered to be a failure ?


1) That guy was talking about some components of Arjun. Today we live in global world so its very normal to share successful components with each other. Even US Abrams has German gun, British armor and Canadian FCS.
2) I never heard any expert calling Merkava a failure, on contrary most experts say it's one of the best tanks in the world. While Hezbollah braged about their victories in 2006 war, they did not fire a single bullet towards Israel since then. Seems they are not eager to meet Merkava once again.

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## Abingdonboy

Just to effectively summarise, trying to clear up and shut up any doubts:

- The Arjun is a very capable and advanced tank incoperating some of the best technology from all over the world (sights, engine etc) that has just not had time to prove itself yet.
- The reason it is being inducted in such small numbers is NOT due to lack of capability on its part but rather a combination of reasons: (1) the Army probably believing the Arjun would never fully materialise into the formidable platform it has done sought to fill the gap by buying 3000+ T-90s tanks from Russia. (2) As a result of this the infrastructure and tactics were built around this platform (T-90s) which meant that by the time the Arjun came to fruition the groundwork had already den put in place for the T-90 which was uncompatible with the Arjun (I.e Tank carriers, rail roads, Portable bridges, refuelling systems etc) so whilst a more capable machine the Arjun has caught little favour with the Army's top brass because they have already committed themselves to a HUGE T-90 induction.

-There are some excelant and groundbreaking INDIAN technologies on the Arjun such as the hydraulic systems ,reactive armour etc 
- Most of thenabove issues will mostly be resolved by the induction of the Arjun Mk ll because not only will it be even MORE advanced but it will be replacing the T-72 which are in use in large numbers as such the Arjun will be inducted in large numbers to replace Thame and eventually the T-90s.


In short the Arjun has been disadvantaged by a lack of foresight, funding and mandate but through it all has come out a formidable and effective system, comparable to any in the Western world, with much room for further advancements (Mk ll) and beyond.

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## EjazR

Without a credible source this will justbe tall claims. A respected defence magazine like or something similar would be much better than some random guy claming all this inside knowledge. And if a person who is working on the project is leaking such info on forums, then he should be prosecuted for leaking state secrets. Its plain stupid.

I would like for this to be true, but without a credible source, it has to be discounted.



500 said:


> 2) I never heard any expert calling Merkava a failure, on contrary most experts say it's one of the best tanks in the world. *While Hezbollah braged about their victories in 2006 war*, they did not fire a single bullet towards Israel since then. Seems they are not eager to meet Merkava once again.



Offtopic but it was the Israeli govt. and IDF that considered the 2006 lebanon war as a failure
*Former IDF chiefs trade barbs over failures in Second Lebanon War - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
Lebanon war a failure for Israel: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
How Israel Bungled the Second Lebanon War :: Middle East Quarterly*


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## DeathGod

Kinetic said:


> 1.All of your thoughts are so called, "how can India do that"!!!!! lol


Firstly , every new system , no matter whos developed it needs to face criticism. More questions are asked when you have a dud credibility like the DRDO. Not trying to belittle anything but guess DRDO's efficiency or may I say inefficiency is legendary ( as are many other things in our country)

Secondly , I clearly mentioned that its not about India , its about any other organisation/country who is developing a new (from the scratch) system and doesnt have anywhere near the credentials of producing the basic system required for the same.




> Many speculated that but comparative trials shows that T-90S is no match for Arjun. What makes T-90S proven but not Arjun?



Do you really beleive that one test (in controlled and simulated environment) which may and I insist may have proven Arjun superior (in some areas alone) can make it better than T-90 which btw have been used by Russia in a war with Chechens.


> Because Kanchan has done well in trials, thats not probable but proven.



Kanchan may have proven itself , but when one claims it to be better than chobham then its laughable. Just read up internet with the service history of Challenger in Iraq and you will understand what I am talking about.



> No one claimed foreign systems make Arjun capable. So its BS.



Are you claiming that Arjun doesnt incorporate foreign systems from Israel which are very important for functioning of tank? Or are you claiming that those systems are top of the line ? ( As I understand a good tank will need top of the line systems to be comparable to other good tanks like M1A and Challenger)



> Nope, thats a total lie. The gun is developed in house by DRDO. Where did you got the info that the gun is from Rheinmetal?



Good for us. Care to provide a link to the factory where it is being developed. Wonder what has taken us so long to create an artillery peice. As I understand one needs to develop an artillery gun first and then move on to a tank gun (seems logical progression , if you see tech charts of all major militaries then this is the way they have developed).



> lol Your T-90S's night vision and IR systems failed repeatedly in hot condition of desert but Arjun have no such problem. If there have been a night fighting during the trial than T-90S would have done much worse than Arjun.



As you said T-90S NV & IR failed in hot conditions of desert , so lets not generalize that T-90 will do much worse than Arjun in all theatres. 



> lol Another lie! Where did you heard that the engine broke down now and then? The engine is from MTU, same used in Leopard-2. Kaveri has completed high altitude tests successfully.


Read up wiki for engine breakdowns. Agree that MTU is being used , and I hope you would appreciate it has been developed for the cold and plains of Germany and not for the sands of Thar. The lesser we talk about Kaveri the better it is. 

Thats the only part you have said truth, unless imagination in rests. 



> A simple google will give you lots of info. Start with these...



Thanks for the advice and the links.


> Arjun have been deployed in the deserts of Rajasthan. They have proved well there.
> In your words to make a weapons 'battle proven' we may need to attack some country!!!!


UN peace-keeping missions , active excercises with other countries maybe some possible avenues we can explore.

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## ganimi kawa

Abingdonboy said:


> Just to effectively summarise, trying to clear up and shut up any doubts:
> 
> - The Arjun is a very capable and advanced tank incoperating some of the best technology from all over the world (sights, engine etc) that has just not had time to prove itself yet.
> - The reason it is being inducted in such small numbers is NOT due to lack of capability on its part but rather a combination of reasons: (1) the Army probably believing the Arjun would never fully materialise into the formidable platform it has done sought to fill the gap by buying 3000+ T-90s tanks from Russia. (2) As a result of this the infrastructure and tactics were built around this platform (T-90s) which meant that by the time the Arjun came to fruition the groundwork had already den put in place for the T-90 which was uncompatible with the Arjun (I.e Tank carriers, rail roads, Portable bridges, refuelling systems etc) so whilst a more capable machine the Arjun has caught little favour with the Army's top brass because they have already committed themselves to a HUGE T-90 induction.
> 
> -There are some excelant and groundbreaking INDIAN technologies on the Arjun such as the hydraulic systems ,reactive armour etc
> - Most of thenabove issues will mostly be resolved by the induction of the Arjun Mk ll because not only will it be even MORE advanced but it will be replacing the T-72 which are in use in large numbers as such the Arjun will be inducted in large numbers to replace Thame and eventually the T-90s.
> 
> 
> In short the Arjun has been disadvantaged by a lack of foresight, funding and mandate but through it all has come out a formidable and effective system, comparable to any in the Western world, with much room for further advancements (Mk ll) and beyond.


 

A very precise and informative post, you have hit the nail on it's head! Thanks, Abingdonboy!


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## shree835

rcrmj said:


> only fan boys actually believe in these crap` if Arjun is that good why india ordered more than 250 of T-90s?? its so surprising that so many people actually buy this article. all we looking for is a creditable source, reading through the whole artile i dont see any but sheer 'personal' ideas.


 
Good Thing you raised...

I have couple of question...Please help me to get the answer...

1. If JF 17 is formidable aircraft as Chinese and say...Why it is not inducted into Chinese Air Force...??
2. If Al- Khalid is formidable Tank as Chinese and say...Why it is not inducted into Chinese Army...??
3. If J10 and other Chinese Aircraft is that much good ...then why China is Very Much Interested into Su -30 Family Aircraft from Russia.

Etc.

Please Answer me.

What I understood... end of the day it is all Crap China Maal.

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## Whiplash

^Stupid post.
1: They dont need it. JF17 is cheap for countries with lower budgets.
2:Google mbt 2000/Type 90II
3:So a nation can't have two aircraft of different types?
I'm not pro china or pakistan. Just stop flaming. This forum is beginning to go to the dogs because of fanboys.

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## shree835

fox said:


> ArjunK is better than AL-Khalid like LCA is better than JF-17.


 
Yes dude, very true...China Maal is always crap... Just throw these craps ASAP.


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## GLOBAL HAWK

Chill man
Its just a view
Not a mandate or a fact finding committee result


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## Firemaster

welcome back XiNiX


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## KS

> Arjun a has a bigger engine but weights over 13 tonnes more than Al Khalid.





> Al Khalid has a power-to-weight ratio of 26.66 hp/tonne gives acceleration from 0 to 32 km/h (0 to 20 mph) in 10 seconds and a maximum speed of 70 km/h, the speed and agility also helping to improve survivability which is greater than that of Arjun's.



The 1400 HP is for Mk II. An indigenous.lighter engine pumping out 1500 HP has already been developed and they are ready for trials. And even the MkI engine gives a healthy 24 hp/ton. Not a big difference considering that most of the tanks have a power/weight ratio in this bracket.

Development of Improved Indian Arjun Complete: DRDO - Defense News



> Arjun has a 120mm main rifled tank gun which has to be loaded "mannually" where Al Khalid has an Automatic Loading 125mm smooth bore gun.



Therein lies the advantage. The 120 mms rifles is one of the best in its class and it is universally acknowledged that rifled guns give a better range, accuracy and more KE than the smooth bores.

And the manual loading has its advantages too.There have been cases of splinters jamming the auto-loader and the tanks are left unusable till the service crew gets their hands on it. Less of that problem in manual loading.



> Al Khalid uses Data link which can communicate Tank footage and vital coordinates with other units around ie UAV/UCAVs , APCs , Fighter Jets , Cobra Gunships and artilliry command centers.
> 
> Arjun has no Data link , not that i am aware of at least !



I am here to make you aware of that 



> _However, the specialty of the tank lies in its battlefield management system (BMS) which facilitates tactical command as well as control and communications between one tank and the rest of the team. _



http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf



> Al Khalid has a Rate of fire/minute of 8 where Arjun's Rate of fire/minute is 6.



Arjun's rate of fire is 6-8 according to the most conservative estimates. Not just 6.



> Al Khalid has been in Mass production which Arjun is yet to see , so far as many as 220 Al Khalid and Al Khalid 01 have been delivered to Pakistan Army.



If 220 numbers qualify as mass production, then I guess Arjun too is in mass production. Confirmed orders for 248 tanks are being fulfilled and once the MkII is ready get ready to see the 'real' mass production.



> Al Khalid takes only 3 crew to operate the Machine while Arjun Takes 4 hence making it more expensive to operate , heavy and risks more lives.



More expensive to operate ?? You must be kidding - the auto loader needs maintenance whereas manual loader needs no maintenance relatively. More expensive - nope .Heavy risks - not exactly. If you have a jammed autoloader in the middle of the battle you are as good as a smoked turkey. 

Now coming onto the salient features of Arjun :

1) Superior armament comprising of APFSDS (Kinetic Energy rounds), HEAT, HESH and the superior LAHAT missile.

2) KANCHAN composite armor said to be one of the best in the world and it took a direct hit from T 72 from point blank range with no apparent damage.

A new NERA armor being integrated,



> A new honeycomb design Non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) armour is being tested on the Arjun and is reported to be working perfectly.




3)Advanced defensive suites to enhance survivalability in case of being hit - Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS) and Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) already integrated and was said to be tested sucessfully in the trials.

Arjun Tank

4) The superior hydro-pneumatic suspension compared to the torsion bars on AK giving more accuracy while firing on the move.

5) Shaped charges for APS.

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## ganimi kawa

Karthic Sri said:


> The 1400 HP is for Mk II. An indigenous.lighter engine pumping out 1500 HP has already been developed and they are ready for trials. And even the MkI engine gives a healthy 24 hp/ton. Not a big difference considering that most of the tanks have a power/weight ratio in this bracket.
> 
> Development of Improved Indian Arjun Complete: DRDO - Defense News
> 
> 
> 
> Therein lies the advantage. The 120 mms rifles is one of the best in its class and it is universally acknowledged that rifled guns give a better range, accuracy and more KE than the smooth bores.
> 
> And the manual loading has its advantages too.There have been cases of splinters jamming the auto-loader and the tanks are left unusable till the service crew gets their hands on it. Less of that problem in manual loading.
> 
> 
> 
> I am here to make you aware of that
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun's rate of fire is 6-8 according to the most conservative estimates. Not just 6.
> 
> 
> 
> If 220 numbers qualify as mass production, then I guess Arjun too is in mass production. Confirmed orders for 248 tanks are being fulfilled and once the MkII is ready get ready to see the 'real' mass production.
> 
> 
> 
> More expensive to operate ?? You must be kidding - the auto loader needs maintenance whereas manual loader needs no maintenance relatively. More expensive - nope .Heavy risks - not exactly. If you have a jammed autoloader in the middle of the battle you are as good as a smoked turkey.
> 
> Now coming onto the salient features of Arjun :
> 
> 1) Superior armament comprising of APFSDS (Kinetic Energy rounds), HEAT, HESH and the superior LAHAT missile.
> 
> 2) KANCHAN composite armor said to be one of the best in the world and it took a direct hit from T 72 from point blank range with no apparent damage.
> 
> A new NERA armor being integrated,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3)Advanced defensive suites to enhance survivalability in case of being hit - Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS) and Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) already integrated and was said to be tested sucessfully in the trials.
> 
> Arjun Tank
> 
> 4) The superior hydro-pneumatic suspension compared to the torsion bars on AK giving more accuracy while firing on the move.







Nice post, dude! Collating the points from above posts as well as some other stuff, here is a status check on Arjun mk2.


*1.Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) : *
As part of the project &#8216;Development of Defensive Aids System&#8217;, the MCS has been developed, integrated in MBT Arjun and conducted the performance Evaluation Trial.

*2.Advanced Laser Warning Countermeasure System (ALWCS) : *
First prototype of the Interface box for Fire Control System with Advanced LWCS has been developed and demonstrated. Verification Test on interfacing of ALWCS with Integrated Fire Control System has been carried out. ALWCS has been integrated on MBT Arjun and Limited Performance Evaluation and integrity trials completed.


*3.Ammunition for MBT Arjun :*
In ARDE, Pune, twenty nos of 120 mm Ordnances and 32 nos of 120 mm recoil system sets have been manufactured, proved successfully and issued to HVF Chennai for mounting on production Tanks. The order for 124 Sets of Recoil System has been completed.

*4.Multi-spectral Camouflage Coatings : *
The coatings of multispectral camouflage paints have been found to provide highly effective camouflaging both in visible-near infrared and thermal infrared regions when tested on BMP-2 by using thermal systems as well as Long Range Infrared Surveillance system from the Army.

*5. Indigenous NERA* (explosive reactive armour) developed.

*6. Shaped charge warheads for the Active protection system for Arjun successfully tested!*














*7.Fiber Optic Gyro (FOG) : *
An indigenous Fiber Gyro based 2 axis Sensor Package Unit has also been indigenously developed and fitted in Main Battle Tank, Arjun and passed field trials.


*8.Cannon launched guided missile (CLMDP)

A new missile being developed at IRDE to replace the LAHAT which is the current ATGM with Arjun.

It will have more range, better seeker and a better attack profile!*

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## jha

I missed a lot today it seems.. Welcome back Xinix...

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## angeldemon_007

Thanx alot XiNiX. One of the finest thread.

Our neighbors are pinpointing the defects which were there in Arjun. Let me tell you guys, we all knows because India never kept them secret. Even the press releases were made unlike in your countries were apparently all defense products made are always the best in the world and always successful without any failures. I think even you should doubt about the credibility of your sources.

Other thing is that all those defects which were their were rectified and the thread is talking about the new arjun mk2 not the old one which apparently has some 90 upgrades. Stop talking about what is old and start worrying about what is coming.

Hey guys how is the modernization plan of T72 going on??? I think if IA should wait for trials of arjun mk2. If they still wanna go for the T72 then i think they should consider replacing at-least the oldest of the T72s which were inducted in the early 1970s with Arjun mk1 or mk2.

Also i heard IA is insisting on a complete new design for our FMBT which experts from Israel, Germany etc. are saying is a foolish idea. Also i heard, despite two years of labour, the Army's tank managers, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), have been unable to decide on a suitable design for fmbt. Is it true ???? My personel opinion is we should listen to what experts are saying.


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## Kompromat

Abingdonboy said:


> Yeah the Pakistani army rejected the Abrams because there's no way in hell that you could afford to buy more than about 12 of them, the fuel costs alone would cripple their budget as either you chose the diesel powered version which Australia, Saud, Eygpt and Kuwait use which is like 8 GALLONS A MILE or the gas turbine jet engine which the U.S Army uses which is about the same but is MUCH more powerful but jet fuel costs about 4 times that of normal diesel.
> 
> Don't make out it was because it didn't meet your 'stringent' technical requirements but the Al-Khalid did, there is no SANE expert on earth who would say the Al-Khalid was better than the Abrams, it was simply down to $$$
> 
> India on the other hand could probably afford the Abrams in relatively large numbers (the Arjun costs only slightly less than the Abrams) but chose to develop an indigenous tank instead because that is their strategy- to try and make as much indigenous hardware as possible + the fact that when the Arjun development started (late 1980s) India's finances were in a bit of a pickle and their relationship with the US was not as strong as it is today.


 

You are talking too much Sh!t - M1a1 was offered to Pakistan in Zia era - It failed thin desert sand trails and ended up in a stream in the following trails in Punjab"s muddy terrain. Zia was killed after he was flying back from one of these trails in Bahawalpur.

It was refused based on its "Performance" NOT because of its "cost".

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## Kompromat

Karthic Sri said:


> The 1400 HP is for Mk II. An indigenous.lighter engine pumping out 1500 HP has already been developed and they are ready for trials. And even the MkI engine gives a healthy 24 hp/ton. Not a big difference considering that most of the tanks have a power/weight ratio in this bracket.
> 
> Development of Improved Indian Arjun Complete: DRDO - Defense News
> 
> 
> 
> Therein lies the advantage. The 120 mms rifles is one of the best in its class and it is universally acknowledged that rifled guns give a better range, accuracy and more KE than the smooth bores.
> 
> And the manual loading has its advantages too.There have been cases of splinters jamming the auto-loader and the tanks are left unusable till the service crew gets their hands on it. Less of that problem in manual loading.
> 
> 
> 
> I am here to make you aware of that
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Arjun's rate of fire is 6-8 according to the most conservative estimates. Not just 6.
> 
> 
> 
> If 220 numbers qualify as mass production, then I guess Arjun too is in mass production. Confirmed orders for 248 tanks are being fulfilled and once the MkII is ready get ready to see the 'real' mass production.
> 
> 
> 
> More expensive to operate ?? You must be kidding - the auto loader needs maintenance whereas manual loader needs no maintenance relatively. More expensive - nope .Heavy risks - not exactly. If you have a jammed autoloader in the middle of the battle you are as good as a smoked turkey.
> 
> Now coming onto the salient features of Arjun :
> 
> 1) Superior armament comprising of APFSDS (Kinetic Energy rounds), HEAT, HESH and the superior LAHAT missile.
> 
> 2) KANCHAN composite armor said to be one of the best in the world and it took a direct hit from T 72 from point blank range with no apparent damage.
> 
> A new NERA armor being integrated,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3)Advanced defensive suites to enhance survivalability in case of being hit - Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS) and Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) already integrated and was said to be tested sucessfully in the trials.
> 
> Arjun Tank
> 
> 4) The superior hydro-pneumatic suspension compared to the torsion bars on AK giving more accuracy while firing on the move.
> 
> 5) Shaped charges for APS.



*HIT Al Khalid Main Battle Tank.*






*Myth: The Al Khalid is nothing more than the NORINCO brand *

*Type 90-IIM Main Battle Tank.*


The Al-Khalid is essentially a hybrid tank design with systems, armament and subsystems originating from a variety of global sources though the tank system itself, as a whole, is a locally-produced product native to Pakistan. Its indirect lineage can be traced back to the Soviet Cold War-era T-54 series while its direct lineage stems from the Chinese NORINCO Type 90-II main battle tank. Additionally, engines are of Ukrainian origin while production is handled within Pakistan. In most respects, the Al-Khalid can be viewed as the "ultimate" evolution of the successful Soviet T-54 system.

Design on the Al-Khalid ran through most of the 1990's to which the system was then known as the "MBT 2000". Design was handled on both the part of NORINCO Factory 617 of China and Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) of Pakistan with a partnership officially inked in January of 1990. Prototypes appeared the following year and went into evaluation. At the core of the new tank design was to be ease-of-production, a system that could readily accept the use of foreign powerpacks.

There appeared four major prototypes designated simply as P1, P2, P3 and P4. Each was differentiated mainly by their selection of powerplants. The P1 sported the German-based MTU-396 diesel engine mated to an LSG-3000 automatic transmission while fielding a Chinese-made 125mm main gun, fire-control system and autoloader. The P2 was similar in scope but with a Perkins Condor 1,200 horsepower diesel engine (used in the successful British Challenger MBT series), a French SESM ESM500 (ala the Le Clerc MBT) and western-based fire-control system. The P3 sported a Ukrainian 6TD-2 1,200 horsepower engine but essentially the P2 prototype. The P4 was given the NATO-standard 120mm main gun tied into a western-based fire-control system along with a German-based MTU-871/TCM AVDS-1790 diesel engine with LSG-3000 automatic transmission. The P4 was intended to become an export product for Pakistan to produce, operate and sell to other prospective global buyers.

P2's Challenger-based engine proved too temperamental for the rigors of desert warfare and was ultimately too expensive for a long-term powerpack solution. The P4 saw its demise when an arms embargo was placed against Pakistan for their testing of a nuclear weapon in 1998. As such, the P3 with her Ukrainian powerplant proved the best for both cost and operations in the hot Pakistani climate. The new tank system was born under the Chinese designation of "Type 90-IIM" (showcasing its obvious lineage to the NORINCO Type 90-II model) along with an export designation of "MBT 2000". In Pakistan, the tank took on the name of "Al-Khalid".






Pakistan received much experience in its two major Indo-Pak Wars against India resulting in a nation that was now more or less knowledgeable about what it wanted in their next main battle tank. Pakistan had already been granted license-production rights to the Chinese Type 85-IIAP series and manufactured the type through Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), to which the experience in this type of industrial-size, heavy duty manufacturing proved priceless to Pakistan's future within localized production of armored vehicles. As such, HIT was tabbed for producing the new Al-Khalid and the tank entered service with the Pakistani Army in 2001 with local Pakistani production continuing even today. It is expected that some 600 total Al-Khalids will be delivered to the Pakistani Army by production's end.

Externally, the Al-Khalid shares a conventional design consistent with most modern main battle tanks. It offers up a low profile thanks to its rather short turret height. The glacis plate is very shallow and side armor is augmented through the use if skirts. Six road wheels are fitted to a side. Crew accommodations amount to three personnel as the loader position is done away with. The driver is seated in the center of the forward hull while the gunner and tank commander take their positions in the turret. Armor is composite in construction and is expanded to include Explosive Reactive Armor for increased protection.

The engine is mounted at the rear and consists of a Ukrainian-based KMDB 6TD-2 6-cylinder diesel-fueled engine delivering up to 1,200 horsepower. The engine provides a top speed of 70 kilometers-per-hour with a range of 400 kilometers. The powerplant is tied to a SESM ESM500-series 5-speed transmission system. Suspension is accomplished through a torsion bar and hydraulic damper arrangement.

Primary armament of the Al-Khalid centers around the powerful 125mm smoothbore main gun nestled into the center of the turret face. Consistent with Russian tank designs throughout recent history, the Al-Khalid does away with the main gun loader as a crewmember and instead employs a complicated but effective automatic loader in his place. Anti-aircraft support is handled by the tank commander through an externally-operated 12.7mm heavy machine gun mounted on the turret roof. A 7.62mm anti-infantry machine gun is mounted co-axially on the turret face next to the main gun. Six smoke grenade dischargers are fitted to either turret side and a capable laser range finder, laser detection system and NBC protection are all standard to base Al-Khalids.

As of this writing, 320 examples of the Al-Khalid have been produced. The primary production model is the Al-Khalid based on the NORINCO prototype fitting the Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2 diesel engine (P3). The Al-Khalid I represents a proposed upgraded model with revised systems, engine, autoloader and armor as well as the ability to fire KOMBAT anti-tank guided missiles for increased lethality. This version is still under development.






The Al-Khalid is named after the Muslim hero-general Khalid ibn al-Walid (592-642 AD), Muhammad's successful and legendary military commander.

Saudi Arabia has been rumored as a potential Al Khalid user though this agreement has not been exercised.

HIT Al Khalid / Type 90-II / MBT 2000 - Main Battle Tank - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Tanks, Vehicles and Artillery

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## FNFAL

Black Blood said:


> *HIT Al Khalid Main Battle Tank.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Myth: The Al Khalid is nothing more than the NORINCO brand *
> 
> *Type 90-IIM Main Battle Tank.*
> 
> 
> HIT Al Khalid / Type 90-II / MBT 2000 - Main Battle Tank - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Tanks, Vehicles and Artillery


 
@@ BLACKBLOOD....wat is the motive or rationality behind this post>>It only tells whay we already know....from the article i gathered ERA and the turrent launched missile are still in Development...no where does it provide any info how this tank is better than its other tanks..atleat arjuns`s features....

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## Developereo

Funny to see all the internet fanboys thumping each other on the back. Also funny to see excuses ranging from corruption to infrastructure as the reason why the Arjun factory is desperate for orders.

Bottom line: *Until the Indian Army shows confidence in the Arjun by ordering thousands of units, all the internet fanboy blabbering is worthless.*


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## angeldemon_007

> Bottom line: Until the Indian Army shows confidence in the Arjun by ordering thousands of units, all the internet fanboy blabbering is worthless.


By that definition even your army has to show confidence in Al Khalid. China developed it alongwith you. Just tell me if it was such a success why did China felt a need to develop more advanced MBT for its forces ??/


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## Kinetic

Developereo said:


> Funny to see all the internet fanboys thumping each other on the back. Also funny to see excuses ranging from corruption to infrastructure as the reason why the Arjun factory is desperate for orders.
> 
> Bottom line: *Until the Indian Army shows confidence in the Arjun by ordering thousands of units, all the internet fanboy blabbering is worthless.*


 
Expected something better from you. That is a silly logic. Just last year IA ordered new batch of Arjun and Arjuns are deployed along Indo-Pak border new Jaisalmir.

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## GORKHALI

Developereo said:


> Funny to see all the internet fanboys thumping each other on the back. Also funny to see excuses ranging from corruption to infrastructure as the reason why the Arjun factory is desperate for orders.
> 
> Bottom line: *Until the Indian Army shows confidence in the Arjun by ordering thousands of units, all the internet fanboy blabbering is worthless.*


 
why you just keep on posting same thing ??Internet fan boys ,internet fan boys bla bla bla !!better keep ya mouth shut if you have nothing to add substantial in thread...


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## Kinetic

*Arjun's Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS)*

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## IndianArmy

Developereo said:


> Funny to see all the internet fanboys thumping each other on the back. Also funny to see excuses ranging from corruption to infrastructure as the reason why the Arjun factory is desperate for orders.
> 
> Bottom line: *Until the Indian Army shows confidence in the Arjun by ordering thousands of units, all the internet fanboy blabbering is worthless.*


 
Point taken, Arjun Is Just not there which could make it a future MBT of Ours, Its Still a technology which would go obsolete in the coming decades, We have started Modernization not by keeping Quantity as a sole Motive, We have an Equally Capable MBT the T-90 in our Inventory which is doing the job of a front Line Combat Unit, we do not need another Vehicle of the same Capability or a Capability which has an Edge over it.... We need a Technology which is New, If its Incorporated on The Arjun MK2 then The Army is Ready to Buy it.... 

Arjun Is a Totally good and Rugged Vehicle fit for facing any Combat Scenario faced today, But can it tomorrow is the Question.... Thats the Main Reason Army is Not Interested in it, If It was Provided in 2000's Army perhaps Wouldnt have gone for the T-90 at all...


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## DesiGuy

Welcome back...XiNiX!!!!

the best researcher guy on pdf!


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## GORKHALI

Black Blood said:


> *HIT Al Khalid Main Battle Tank.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Myth: The Al Khalid is nothing more than the NORINCO brand *
> 
> *Type 90-IIM Main Battle Tank.*
> 
> 
> The Al-Khalid is essentially a hybrid tank design with systems, armament and subsystems originating from a variety of global sources though the tank system itself, as a whole, is a locally-produced product native to Pakistan. Its indirect lineage can be traced back to the Soviet Cold War-era T-54 series while its direct lineage stems from the Chinese NORINCO Type 90-II main battle tank. Additionally, engines are of Ukrainian origin while production is handled within Pakistan. In most respects, the Al-Khalid can be viewed as the "ultimate" evolution of the successful Soviet T-54 system.
> 
> Design on the Al-Khalid ran through most of the 1990's to which the system was then known as the "MBT 2000". Design was handled on both the part of NORINCO Factory 617 of China and Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) of Pakistan with a partnership officially inked in January of 1990. Prototypes appeared the following year and went into evaluation. At the core of the new tank design was to be ease-of-production, a system that could readily accept the use of foreign powerpacks.
> 
> There appeared four major prototypes designated simply as P1, P2, P3 and P4. Each was differentiated mainly by their selection of powerplants. The P1 sported the German-based MTU-396 diesel engine mated to an LSG-3000 automatic transmission while fielding a Chinese-made 125mm main gun, fire-control system and autoloader. The P2 was similar in scope but with a Perkins Condor 1,200 horsepower diesel engine (used in the successful British Challenger MBT series), a French SESM ESM500 (ala the Le Clerc MBT) and western-based fire-control system. The P3 sported a Ukrainian 6TD-2 1,200 horsepower engine but essentially the P2 prototype. The P4 was given the NATO-standard 120mm main gun tied into a western-based fire-control system along with a German-based MTU-871/TCM AVDS-1790 diesel engine with LSG-3000 automatic transmission. The P4 was intended to become an export product for Pakistan to produce, operate and sell to other prospective global buyers.
> 
> P2's Challenger-based engine proved too temperamental for the rigors of desert warfare and was ultimately too expensive for a long-term powerpack solution. The P4 saw its demise when an arms embargo was placed against Pakistan for their testing of a nuclear weapon in 1998. As such, the P3 with her Ukrainian powerplant proved the best for both cost and operations in the hot Pakistani climate. The new tank system was born under the Chinese designation of "Type 90-IIM" (showcasing its obvious lineage to the NORINCO Type 90-II model) along with an export designation of "MBT 2000". In Pakistan, the tank took on the name of "Al-Khalid".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan received much experience in its two major Indo-Pak Wars against India resulting in a nation that was now more or less knowledgeable about what it wanted in their next main battle tank. Pakistan had already been granted license-production rights to the Chinese Type 85-IIAP series and manufactured the type through Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), to which the experience in this type of industrial-size, heavy duty manufacturing proved priceless to Pakistan's future within localized production of armored vehicles. As such, HIT was tabbed for producing the new Al-Khalid and the tank entered service with the Pakistani Army in 2001 with local Pakistani production continuing even today. It is expected that some 600 total Al-Khalids will be delivered to the Pakistani Army by production's end.
> 
> Externally, the Al-Khalid shares a conventional design consistent with most modern main battle tanks. It offers up a low profile thanks to its rather short turret height. The glacis plate is very shallow and side armor is augmented through the use if skirts. Six road wheels are fitted to a side. Crew accommodations amount to three personnel as the loader position is done away with. The driver is seated in the center of the forward hull while the gunner and tank commander take their positions in the turret. Armor is composite in construction and is expanded to include Explosive Reactive Armor for increased protection.
> 
> The engine is mounted at the rear and consists of a Ukrainian-based KMDB 6TD-2 6-cylinder diesel-fueled engine delivering up to 1,200 horsepower. The engine provides a top speed of 70 kilometers-per-hour with a range of 400 kilometers. The powerplant is tied to a SESM ESM500-series 5-speed transmission system. Suspension is accomplished through a torsion bar and hydraulic damper arrangement.
> 
> Primary armament of the Al-Khalid centers around the powerful 125mm smoothbore main gun nestled into the center of the turret face. Consistent with Russian tank designs throughout recent history, the Al-Khalid does away with the main gun loader as a crewmember and instead employs a complicated but effective automatic loader in his place. Anti-aircraft support is handled by the tank commander through an externally-operated 12.7mm heavy machine gun mounted on the turret roof. A 7.62mm anti-infantry machine gun is mounted co-axially on the turret face next to the main gun. Six smoke grenade dischargers are fitted to either turret side and a capable laser range finder, laser detection system and NBC protection are all standard to base Al-Khalids.
> 
> As of this writing, 320 examples of the Al-Khalid have been produced. The primary production model is the Al-Khalid based on the NORINCO prototype fitting the Ukrainian KMDB 6TD-2 diesel engine (P3). The Al-Khalid I represents a proposed upgraded model with revised systems, engine, autoloader and armor as well as the ability to fire KOMBAT anti-tank guided missiles for increased lethality. This version is still under development.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Al-Khalid is named after the Muslim hero-general Khalid ibn al-Walid (592-642 AD), Muhammad's successful and legendary military commander.
> 
> Saudi Arabia has been rumored as a potential Al Khalid user though this agreement has not been exercised.
> 
> HIT Al Khalid / Type 90-II / MBT 2000 - Main Battle Tank - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Tanks, Vehicles and Artillery


 
what new in this ?
ERA in development compared
*India already developed and featured in T90, T72 ,Arjun mk1.Abhay IFV etc.*


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## angeldemon_007

I think tank-ex was also good. The only problem with that was the use of T72 chassis which we would have to import from Russia.


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## DesiGuy

tanks are history now....don't know why India-Pakistan are still so interested in buying those heavy stuff..


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## Kinetic

angeldemon_007 said:


> I think tank-ex was also good. The only problem with that was the use of T72 chassis which we would have to import from Russia.


Its good but lacks the hydropneumatic suspension of Arjun, that gives higher accuracy and superior cross country ride. But it could be an option for T-72 upgrades. Though buying new Arjun tanks will be much better.


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## Kinetic

DesiGuy said:


> tanks are history now....don't know why India-Pakistan are still so interested in buying those heavy stuff..


 
What are you talking about? Tanks are the king of land warfare. In recent time during Gulf war II and South Ossetia they have been used extensively. They have much uses along Indo-Pak border region of Punjab, Rajasthan-Gujarat.


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## satishkumarcsc

DesiGuy said:


> tanks are history now....don't know why India-Pakistan are still so interested in buying those heavy stuff..


 
Man then tell me what is used to punch holes in the enemy defence lines and how are planning to take heavy fire to the opponent's field?

Tanks win wars...it is going to happen for the next 100 years.


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## GodlessBastard

DesiGuy said:


> tanks are history now....


 
What are you going to use instead to provide heavy support and "staying power" for troops on the ground?

APCs?


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## angeldemon_007

> tanks are history now....don't know why India-Pakistan are still so interested in buying those heavy stuff..


The same reason why every other country which have the capability to develop a MBT is working on Future version of their MBTs...


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## nightcrawler

sirius4u said:


> A rifled bore is nothing but a rifled gun enlarged. It has a groove inside it which induces torque in the projectile while firing it, to improve its accuracy in long range flight.
> Whereas a smooth bore does not have any grooves inside it and hence don't induce torque to the projectile.
> The downside of using a rifled gun is that the grooves get worn out pretty soon and hence have to replace it frequently.
> 
> I was briefed about the hydraulic system of the Arjun last week by the man who designed it himself and I tel you. It is the best in the world. But I cant provide you guys any links for it.


sir your technical aspects over rifled/smooth concept totally sucks; educate urself here...
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/56759-insight-into-al-khalid-ii-mbt-5.html#post871532
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/87193-pakistani-war-horse-al-khalid-5.html#post1455659


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## nightcrawler

From reading whole of this forum the Indian Fire of comments seems understandable & more still predictable from my side.
Explanation: As far as I know the *Macro elements *of Arjun are still inferior to Pakistan Al-Khalid's which includes its overweight; & by the weight parameter its much bulky & heavy, more still its rifled turrent which is too obsolete for modern rounds [Russian/Western]. On the other side what Israel is elaborating is just *Shadowing these weaknesses* with Israeli designed [& obviously state-of-art] *Micro elements*!! That includes range-finders, target interceptors the likes of 'Iron Dome' & by far the much advanced camouflaging of tanks IR signature..

In conclusion it camn be said that Indian generals are now finding alternative goodies[electronic gadgets] to hide away their technical failures as is pointed above


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## GORKHALI

nightcrawler said:


> From reading whole of this forum the Indian Fire of comments seems understandable & more still predictable from my side.
> Explanation: As far as I know the *Macro elements *of Arjun are still inferior to Pakistan Al-Khalid's which includes its overweight; & by the weight parameter its much bulky & heavy, more still its rifled turrent which is too obsolete for modern rounds [Russian/Western]. On the other side what Israel is elaborating is just *Shadowing these weaknesses* with Israeli designed [& obviously state-of-art] *Micro elements*!! That includes range-finders, target interceptors the likes of 'Iron Dome' & by far the much advanced camouflaging of tanks IR signature..
> 
> In conclusion it camn be said that Indian generals are now finding alternative goodies[electronic gadgets] to hide away their technical failures as is pointed above


 
Arjun and other heavier tanks like challenger,abhram ,leo 2 are inferior to Al khalid because they weigh more than Al khalid ,they are much better in firepower,better armour etc etc..


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## ganimi kawa

nightcrawler said:


> Explanation:
> 
> 1. As far as I know the *Macro elements *of Arjun are still inferior to Pakistan Al-Khalid's which includes its overweight; & by the weight parameter its much bulky & heavy, more still its rifled turrent which is too obsolete for modern rounds [Russian/Western].
> 
> 2.On the other side what Israel is elaborating is just *Shadowing these weaknesses* with Israeli designed [& obviously state-of-art] *Micro elements*!! That includes range-finders, target interceptors the likes of 'Iron Dome' & by far the much advanced camouflaging of tanks IR signature..
> 
> 3.In conclusion it camn be said that Indian generals are now finding alternative goodies[electronic gadgets] to hide away their technical failures as is pointed above




*1. AFAI could understand this post, your "macro elements" are just weight and rifled cannon (not turret).*

*a. Weight--- *Arjun is a heavy tank because that is what was demanded by the army GSQR. *What you forgot was that the Arjun has an equally heavy engine to power it through!*

The manueverabilty of a tank is determined not by the weight but by the power to weight ratio.

*With Power/weight of	23.9hp/tonne Arjun is comparable to any tank out there (al khalid 26).*

*Also, the Ground Pressure of Arjun @ 11.9 PSI is lower than almost all other MBTs out there includin the AK except Leo 2 (11.8 PSI).*

*The top speed of Arjun is 72kmph on road and 40 km cross country, Al Khalid is no better.

Now, where is the so called "weight" macro element advantage?*


*b. Rifled Gun---*

Rifled or smooth bore is a huge debate with pros and cons on both sides. Majority have opted for the smooth bore, *though a few like Challanger mbt swear by the rifled bore!*

AFA a gun can meet the parameters set by the army, the nature of the gun becomes a matter of choice by the user. * IA is happy with the Arjun gun and that should be enough!*

*Regarding using the US/ Russian ammo., there is no need! We have developed all the rounds (APFSDS, HEAT ,HESH etc) for Arjun locally and they work very well!*

The rifled gun of Arjun has huge variety of Indian firepower at it's disposal.



*There goes another "macro element"!*




*2. First of all, Iron Dome is not a tank based interceptor!
*
Also, the so called "micro elements" are the real game changers in a war! Ask any tank man!

Also, majority of these developments are Indian and not Israeli. Check out the earlier posts of me and Karthik Sri (I've based mine on DSS 2010, GoI)



*3. Please elaborate the "technical faliures", if you can find any. Last time I heard Arjun was proving it's mettle against the T90. Doesn't sound like a "technical faliure" to me!*



Added later, here is a pic of Cannon launched guided missile (CLMDP), a new ATGM for the rifled gun of Arjun being developed to replace the LAHAT!

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## KS

Black Blood said:


> HIT Al Khalid / Type 90-II / MBT 2000 - Main Battle Tank - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Tanks, Vehicles and Artillery


 
And the reason for this post ?? I have already proved that Arjun is only slightly less capable in some features but at the same time better than it other important aspects like armor,suspension etc.

You could have just spared us all some un-necessary copy pasting which we already know.




Developereo said:


> Funny to see all the internet fanboys thumping each other on the back. Also funny to see excuses ranging from corruption to infrastructure as the reason why the Arjun factory is desperate for orders.



Funny to see some senior fanbois being unable to digest that Arjun is indeed on par with their sooper dooper Al-Khalid when more number of Arjuns are ordered than the total number of Al Khalids (248 to 220) with more orders on the pipeline once Mk II is completed  



Developereo said:


> Bottom line: *Until the Indian Army shows confidence in the Arjun by ordering thousands of units, all the internet fanboy blabbering is worthless.*


 
Jurnail saab, who said only numbers indicate Army's willingness. There are much more factors than mere numbers that indicate an Army's willingness which a tunnel vision cannot see.

The tank infra (portable bridges, tank carriers, rail lines etc etc) of India is based on the Russian tanks for the last 60 years and unless they are developed (and they are indeed being developed) you will not see orders for Arjun. Because with out the suppporting infra a tank alone, however good it might be cannot be uused to its optimum capability. Once they are finished, after two or three years, the real mass production of Arjun begins.

Till then be happy.

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## Kinetic

nightcrawler said:


> Sir I am afraid you are misinformed; this shows that Indians are not capable enough to produces domestically their own *self-stabilising rounds.
> *
> 
> Rifling only was necessary to stabilise the trajectory of warhead but times change & the fins/electronics employed within the structure of projectile is more than enough to stabilise it in its trajectory; so no rifling is necessary nowadays provided you are capable enough to produce modern rounds which Pakistan already has!!


 
Where did you got the info that India doesn't developed and produce APFSDS/FSAPDS? This is old news, now India develoed Shaped charge warheads for the Active protection system for Arjun.


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## satishkumarcsc

nightcrawler said:


> From reading whole of this forum the Indian Fire of comments seems understandable & more still predictable from my side.
> Explanation: As far as I know the *Macro elements *of Arjun are still inferior to Pakistan Al-Khalid's which includes its overweight; & by the weight parameter its much bulky & heavy, more still its rifled turrent which is too obsolete for modern rounds [Russian/Western]. On the other side what Israel is elaborating is just *Shadowing these weaknesses* with Israeli designed [& obviously state-of-art] *Micro elements*!! That includes range-finders, target interceptors the likes of 'Iron Dome' & by far the much advanced camouflaging of tanks IR signature..
> 
> In conclusion it camn be said that Indian generals are now finding alternative goodies[electronic gadgets] to hide away their technical failures as is pointed above


 
You must be kidding right...You are comparing a 40t tank with a 60t class of tank. Dont know the advantages of a rifled bore over smooth bore, The power powered for avionics by the engine, the ground pressure, ease of maintainance, armour thickness.

Please dont compare Arjun with Al-Khald. You can compare Al-khalid with the modernized T 72s and the earlier T 90s but comparing it with Arjun is Futile...


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## Developereo

Karthic Sri said:


> Because with out the suppporting infra a tank alone, however good it might be cannot be uused to its optimum capability. Once they are finished, after two or three years, the real mass production of Arjun begins.


 
So the tank, as developed, as unfit for India's current infrastructure. A product, however good in the reviews, has limited usefulness if it doesn't fit the customer's broad needs and capabilities. At the end of the day, it is the Indian army, not Israeli fanboys, who will write the checks.

It almost sounds like the Arjun was developed by tech geeks in a basement with contemptuous disregard for the Indian army's real life parameters.

Note that it doesn't matter that the infra will be ready in a few years. By that time, tank technology will have moved on and the Arjun will be obsolete; it will be time to look at Arjun 2.


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## Lord Of Gondor

Developereo said:


> So the tank, as developed, as unfit for India's current infrastructure. A product, however good in the reviews, has limited if it doesn't fit the customer's broad needs and capabilities. At the end of the day, it is the Indian army, not Israeli fanboys, who will write the checks.
> 
> It almost sounds like the Arjun was developed by tech geeks in a basement without knowledge of the Indian army's real life parameters.


 
Please read the entire thread,then you will know why it's been inducted in lesser numbers...................


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## Developereo

Bharadwaj said:


> Please read the entire thread,then you will know why it's been inducted in lesser numbers...................


 
I have seen three reasons:
- Support infra is geared towards Russian hardware
- Corruption
- Arjun is too heavy for most of the roads/bridges in India.

All three were known while Arjun was being designed, so they are not valied excuses.


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## Skull and Bones

Developereo said:


> I have seen three reasons:
> - Support infra is geared towards Russian hardware
> - Corruption
> - Arjun is too heavy for most of the roads/bridges in India.
> 
> All three were known while Arjun was being designed, so they are not valied excuses.


 
As i said before, Arjun was specifically designed keeping Pakistan and dessert terrain in mind, and 300-400 tanks are enough to fulfill that requirement.

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## KS

Developereo said:


> So the tank, as developed, as unfit for India's current infrastructure. A product, however good in the reviews, has limited usefulness if it doesn't fit the customer's broad needs and capabilities. At the end of the day, it is the Indian army, not Israeli fanboys, who will write the checks.



No one denies that Arjun, as a completed product, is significantly delayed - the unavoidable delays when your intent is to design a 100% indigenous tank at your first go. It did not work out and the planners went for foreign sub sytems to cut back on the time and here it is now ready.

Note that Arjun was originally intended to be delivered in the mid 90s and when it was not, only then the Army went for the T-90s in massive numbers because of the turbulent times of the 90s (pak backed insurgency and the threat of war anytime). And because of these further infra was developed for T-90. *Again note that the Infra was supposed to be developed for Arjun but because of the delays it was not.*

Now since it is completed the Infra for Arjun is fast being laid and once it is completed you will see you cherished dream - Arjun in the hundreds.

And a section of the Army planners dont favour Arjun because they have to allocate additional budget for developing the Infra for Arjun which will eat into their budget for other goodies. Now that the Govt is backing Arjun to the hilt no such concern are there and every Top brass in Army is happy with the product. I need not mention that the Tankers - the final users - were always happy.



Developereo said:


> It almost sounds like the Arjun was developed by tech geeks in a basement with contemptuous disregard for the Indian army's real life parameters.



Foolish logic I must say. The Infra that was supposed to have been developed for Arjun in the 90s was instead developed for T-90 because of the delays in Arjun and the subsequent induction of T-90 to cover up for Arjun. But since it is now completed the Infra work is in full swing.



Developereo said:


> Note that it doesn't matter that the infra will be ready in a few years. By that time, tank technology will have moved on and the Arjun will be obsolete; it will be time to look at Arjun 2.


 
Is it ?? Can you explain a bit how and what of Arjun will make it an 'obsolete tank' ?

And FYKI, the Mk II is ready for trials. Development of Improved Indian Arjun Complete: DRDO - Defense News
*
Arjun at best can be called a delayed product ; No sane mind will call it a failed product.*


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## ganimi kawa

Developereo said:


> I have seen three reasons:
> - Support infra is geared towards Russian hardware
> - Corruption
> - Arjun is too heavy for most of the roads/bridges in India.
> 
> All three were known while Arjun was being designed, so they are not valied excuses.



Good analysis!

1. Support infra is indeed oriented with the russian hardware. However, things are changing on the front very rapidly. Within next few years the infra will be able to support the Arjun anywhere in India. Right now it is limited to Punjab and Rajasthan.


Check this out http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Products/Defence/Eqpt Spec/BFAT Wagon.pdf











> *BFAT Wagons are specially designed for transportation of main battle tanks viz., Arjun, T-72 / T-
> 90 and BMP-II.*





Also, check this out http://mod.nic.in/samachar/july1-06/h5.htm



> At a modest but impressive ceremony, Chief of the Army Staff, Gen JJ Singh flagged off 29 newly manufactured Bogie Flat Arjun Tank (bfat) wagons of Military Rail at Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) in Bangalore. These indigenously developed state-of-the-art carriage wagons manufactured by BEML are out of the *178, ordered by Army. *The remaining wagons are expected to roll out in near future.
> 
> *The induction of these wagons would enable Army transport its heavy equipment and tanks to the destined place within a short time, thereby increasing the combat preparedness of the nation.*



2. Corruption has only one answer and that is honesty! *We have a honest DM in Mr. Antony and hence the successful resurrection of Arjun!*


*3. That is wrong. I don't know what gave you that idea!*

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## GORKHALI

corruption ,corruption its the only story here !bloody babus,generals all are brought by russian arms dealers , i wrote mail to editor of TOI 8MONTHS back with lots of info but reply from TOI EDITOR WAS"ARMY KNOWS BEST ,WHAT IS GOOD FOR THEM


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## RPK

*Desert Ferrari' and more*

Desert Ferrari' and more


WITH the Army in possession of 100 of the 124 Arjun Mark I Main Battle Tanks it had ordered, the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) facility that designed and developed the tank, has good reason to feel proud and prepare with confidence for the greater challenges that lie ahead. *The immediate task, though, is the development of the Arjun Mark II tank, which will have a total of 93 upgrades, including 13 major improvements.* The Army has placed orders for 124 Arjun Mark II tanks as well, and like the Mark I tanks, these too will roll out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), the CVRDE's neighbour at Avadi near Chennai.

The CVRDE's biggest challenge yet will be the development of the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) and unmanned ground vehicles (UGVs). We are in the process of preparing the requirements and specifications for the FMBT. We have launched technology development projects to improve its gun, engine transmission and suspension, said S. Sundaresh, Chief Controller, Armaments and Combat Engineering, DRDO. The FMBT will have an indigenous 1,500 horsepower engine and it will replace the Army's existing fleet of imported T-72 tanks, renamed Ajeya.

The UGVs will be used for surveillance, mine detection and reconnaissance of areas where nuclear, biological and chemical warfare agents have been used. We will be launching a big programme on UGVs to meet the Army's requirements. A road map is being worked out in consultation with the Army on their development, said Sundaresh. The completion of the Arjun Mark I project has brought a sense of accomplishment on the CVRDE's vast shop floors. The project was originally sanctioned in May 1974 at a cost of Rs.15.5 crore and a timeline of 10 years. The deadline and the cost were revised in 1980, 1987 and 2000. *The cost at the time of the closure of the project in March 1995 was Rs.305.6 crore.*

*Five formidable-looking Arjun tanks rolled out of the HVF premises on August 7, 2004, marking the culmination of a 30-year saga of struggle that battled technology denial regimes, the Army's constantly varying requirements, difficulties in organising field evaluations, increase in number of prototypes, and so on.* On that day, M. Natarajan, then Chief Controller (Armament and Combat Engineering), DRDO and formerly CVRDE Director, who had been associated with the Arjun project from the beginning, said, Weapons of this kind take a generation to build. When the Army wanted us to design a tank comparable with those in the United States, Germany and France, we took it up as a challenge. We had little experience then. ( Frontline, August 27, 2004). Natarajan later went on to become Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister and DRDO Director-General.

P. Sivakumar, Director, CVRDE, narrated the Arjun saga. *A few tanks were delivered to the Army's 43rd Regiment for trials. Five phases of these trials were held at Pokhran and Mahajan in Rajasthan in winter, when the temperature plummets to 5° Celsius, and in summer, when the mercury sizzles at more than 45° C, and on different kinds of terrain. The Army was keen that Arjun should be able to ford waterbodies. Each tank covered 5,000 kilometres and fired 500 rounds of ammunition.*

*The Army wanted a third party to assess the tanks and called in experts from Israel. They subjected the tanks to more tests at the Mahajan range and were so impressed that they called it a desert Ferrari.
*
Arjun Mark I has imported content of more than 55 per cent, which includes the engine and the gun control system, which are from Germany, and the gunner's main sight, which is from Belgium. The tank has an excellent weight-to-power ratio, good mobility and accurate firepower. It weighs 58.5 tonnes and compares well with different heavy class of tanks available in the world. *It has indigenously developed Kanchan armour, which can defeat different kinds of ammunition, and a 120mm rifled gun besides a robust transmission system and a flexible hydro-pneumatic suspension. The remaining 24 of the 124 tanks ordered by the Army will be produced by June this year,* Sivakumar said.

As for Arjun Mark II, the CVRDE Director said the major upgrades would include missile-firing capability against long-range targets; panoramic sight with night vision to engage targets effectively at night; containerisation of the ammunition wing; enhanced penetration of Arjun's ammunition; a variety of ammunition; and a painted surface that will camouflage the tank.

*Other major upgrades, according to Sivakumar, are explosive reactive armour; an advanced air-defence gun to shoot down helicopters; a plough to remove mines; and an advanced land navigation system. Arjun Mark II will have sensors that can detect lasers fired by an enemy tank and alert the tank to fire smoke grenades that confuse the laser. The first prototype demonstration of Ajun Mark II will take place by June 2011. By 2013-14, the first batch of about 30 tanks will roll out of the HVF, said Sivakumar.*

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## Water Car Engineer

Skip to 5:30 and look at Arjuns ability in the desert!!

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## Chanakyaa

Great Video Liquid !!!

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## IND151

200 t0 280 arjuns are enough. 
*indian army*
1.for numbers- t 72
2.for highly advanced tech and mobility-t 90
3.for desert war and requirement of accuracy,high protection-Arjun mk1 and mk2.


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## illuminatidinesh

Am not surprised with article here.... Couple of years back I along with my friend visited CVRD Avadi, there were quite number of Isreali people working there..... Good cooperation.


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## sudhir007




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## LeGenD

Black Blood said:


> You are talking too much Sh!t - M1a1 was offered to Pakistan in Zia era - It failed thin desert sand trails and ended up in a stream in the following trails in Punjab"s muddy terrain. Zia was killed after he was flying back from one of these trails in Bahawalpur.
> 
> It was refused based on its "Performance" NOT because of its "cost".


This is an old story. M1 Abrams platform have evolved a lot since then. We have seen M1 Abrams performing well in desert conditions.

The latest versions of M1 Abrams are completely redesigned products rather then a implementation of variety of improvements over older designs.

For example:

_Exploiting the unique strengths of both the manufacturer and the Army depot, the tank is completely remanufactured resulting in a nearly new tank. _ (regarding *M1A1D* MBT)

Al-khalid meets our requirements. However, it is not a benchmark setting product. Keep in mind that even China have moved on towards newer chassis. Al-khalid is our answer to Indian (Russian) T-90 series. However, threat perceptions of Indian armor do not end here. Al-khalid II is being planned for a reason.

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## SupermanKaPapa

fox said:


> ArjunK is better than AL-Khalid like LCA is better than JF-17.



At last, at least one Pakistani Bro can accept the truth. Everybody knows that ArjunK is better than AL-Khalid and LCA is better than JF-17, but only you got the guts to admit it from Pakistan. Thumbs up to you man............you will go to heaven definitely.

To all Indian Members, please press the Thanks button of this brother's post more than of XiNiX to praise his guts to admit the truth.


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## Omega007

SupermanKaPapa said:


> At last, at least one Pakistani Bro can accept the truth. Everybody knows that ArjunK is better than AL-Khalid and LCA is better than JF-17, but only you got the guts to admit it from Pakistan. Thumbs up to you man............you will go to heaven definitely.
> 
> To all Indian Members, please press the Thanks button of this brother's post more than of XiNiX to praise his guts to admit the truth.


 
Don't waste your time replying to these pakistanis.I have seen one of them saying that DRDO stole the PSLV technology from ISRO to develop the Agni missiles!!!!

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## S-A-B-E-R->

SupermanKaPapa said:


> At last, at least one Pakistani Bro can accept the truth. Everybody knows that ArjunK is better than AL-Khalid and LCA is better than JF-17, but only you got the guts to admit it from Pakistan. Thumbs up to you man............you will go to heaven definitely.
> 
> To all Indian Members, please press the Thanks button of this brother's post more than of XiNiX to praise his guts to admit the truth.


 
specs aside what makes any of us to think that.seriously i dont get indian thinking u are trying to go super power and still a cash strapped small country stuck in multiple problems is ur benchmark for military products and that same country have time and again shown u that it can compeat ur might.i am one of those who beleave that Arjun *CAN* be a good tank .and LCA *can* be a good jet if t came out in production .we have 1000 comparisons for both products and all non conclusive and still ur ignorant enough to think one is better ,,,i pity ur mind state


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## SupermanKaPapa

Omega007 said:


> Don't waste your time replying to these idiotic pakistanis.I have seen one of them saying that DRDO stole the PSLV technology from ISRO to develop the Agni missiles!!!!

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## SupermanKaPapa

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> specs aside what makes any of us to think that.seriously i dont get indian thinking u are trying to go super power and still a cash strapped small country stuck in multiple problems is ur benchmark for military products and that same country have time and again shown u that it can compeat ur might.i am one of those who beleave that Arjun *CAN* be a good tank .and LCA *can* be a good jet if t came out in production .we have 1000 comparisons for both products and all non conclusive and still ur ignorant enough to think one is better ,,,i pity ur mind state



Bro..........I am not here for BS. I am here to discuss different views from different members, and to increase my knowledge in my area of interest (military). But when you find such comments, like ur countryman's, you can have some fun with some funny comments.

I never want to compare my country with any other coz everybody feels his nation is great. So there is no point in comparing or arguing about this. We better what is deverloping where and what new things are there in the world coming.

Please take my post lightly.........I had no intentions to disrespect ur nation.


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## tjpf

Omega007 said:


> Don't waste your time replying to these idiotic pakistanis.I have seen one of them saying that DRDO stole the PSLV technology from ISRO to develop the Agni missiles!!!!


 
SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Black Widow

Omega007 said:


> Don't waste your time replying to these %%%%%% pakistanis.I have seen one of them saying that DRDO stole the PSLV technology from ISRO to develop the Agni missiles!!!!


 

please edit your post, It may lead you to ban... I don want to loose a knowledable member like u frm PDF...


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## Omega007

Black Widow said:


> please edit your post, It may lead you to ban... I don want to loose a knowledable member like u frm PDF...


Don't worry mate.I don't think this may lead to a ban.But still I will delete it if you say.By the way,THANX for your concern.
REGARDS....


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## kake

will arjun mk2 have night vision and missile firing capabilities.


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## Omega007

kake said:


> will arjun mk2 have night vision and missile firing capabilities.


 
Arjun mk1 already has passive infra red night vision device in the gunner's main sight.The mk2 will get an additional passive nvg in commander's periscope for 360 degree serveilance and the laser target designator intigreted in its fire control computer to fire the 8 km range israelly LAHAT ATGM.
REGARDS....

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## koushik

kake said:


> will arjun mk2 have night vision and missile firing capabilities.


 
arjun Mk-1 already operates a day sight made by BEL as well as a night vision sight integrated with the Gunner's main sight and is reported to be manufactured by El-Op of Israel or Sagem of France.
As far as I know Arjun Mk1 also uses the LAHAT ATGM.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

SupermanKaPapa said:


> Bro..........I am not here for BS. I am here to discuss different views from different members, and to increase my knowledge in my area of interest (military). But when you find such comments, like ur countryman's, you can have some *fun with some funny comments.*
> 
> I never want to compare my country with any other coz everybody feels his nation is great. So there is no point in comparing or arguing about this. We better what is deverloping where and what new things are there in the world coming.
> 
> Please take my post lightly.........I had no intentions to disrespect ur nation.


 
actually thats called trolling ....u cant do that
and for knowledge do read and dont get in stupid troll fights


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## kingdurgaking

Omega007 said:


> Arjun mk1 already has passive infra red night vision device in the gunner's main sight.The mk2 will get an additional passive nvg in commander's periscope for 360 degree serveilance and the laser target designator intigreted in its fire control computer to fire the 8 km range israelly LAHAT ATGM.
> REGARDS....


 
I hope you are discussing what ever is there in public domain


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## lionheart1

nightcrawler said:


> From reading whole of this forum the Indian Fire of comments seems understandable & more still predictable from my side.
> Explanation: As far as I know the *Macro elements *of Arjun are still inferior to Pakistan Al-Khalid's which includes its overweight; & by the weight parameter its much bulky & heavy, more still its rifled turrent which is too obsolete for modern rounds [Russian/Western]. On the other side what Israel is elaborating is just *Shadowing these weaknesses* with Israeli designed [& obviously state-of-art] *Micro elements*!! That includes range-finders, target interceptors the likes of 'Iron Dome' & by far the much advanced camouflaging of tanks IR signature..
> 
> In conclusion it camn be said that Indian generals are now finding alternative goodies[electronic gadgets] to hide away their technical failures as is pointed above


 when a tank kills a tank we dont ask macro is good or micro is good ....its just a tank kill .

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## Omega007

kingdurgaking said:


> I hope you are discussing what ever is there in public domain


 
Hey man,everybody knows it.This infos are very much in public.


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## Tshering22

Omega007 said:


> Don't waste your time replying to these pakistanis.I have seen one of them saying that DRDO stole the PSLV technology from ISRO to develop the Agni missiles!!!!


 
Holy Canoly!    Seriously!!!??? DRDO stole from ISRO? hahahahaha! How does it really make a difference? Both are GOI's!! This is hilarious!!!


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## Dharmachakra

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> specs aside what makes any of us to think that.*seriously i dont get indian thinking u are trying to go super power and still a cash strapped small country stuck in multiple problems is ur benchmark for military products and that same country have time and again shown u that it can compeat ur might.*i am one of those who beleave that Arjun *CAN* be a good tank .and LCA *can* be a good jet if t came out in production .we have 1000 comparisons for both products and all non conclusive and still ur ignorant enough to think one is better ,,,i pity ur mind state


I rather sense some humor in your post than anything of credibility.
That very poor country you are talking about spends over $34 billion annually on its defence forces.And spends over a billion on its strategic command.And that pity DRDO you are talking about spends nearly 12000 crore rupees on development of new technologies.

I agree withyou on one thing. On a comparison scale Indian falls behind many mamoths like US,Russia,UK,France,. but nevertheless it lagged behind too much.
that very same Arjun you are talking about is already in production and improved variant will go into production soon.Same happened to the lightest of all combat aircrafts LCA.Deal has been signed with GE for 99 engines, not for the sake of storing them in the warehouse,but to power the next 99 MKII a/c.
Unfortunately even critics appreciated Akash(one under long time development program)about its robustness and kill probablity.Which further got over $10 billion orders.
All you can brag about DRDO failures is a Trishul TD program.Even the tech developed for Trishul is going into Maitri(hence not a waste of money and time)
Every paisa spent by DRDO was utilised properly and will be used to spearhead the increase in indigenisation content.

Sometime an unresearched subject is not worth to argue about.Maybe you should better comeout with a subject that was well researched by you.


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## Tshering22

^^ Dude, by a cash-strapped tiny country as our military benchmark, I think he was talking about Pakistan because I don't think we'd be comparing with ourselves if we read his comment grammatically.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Dharmachakra said:


> *I rather sense some humor in your post than anything of credibility.
> That very poor country you are talking about spends over $34 billion annually on its defence forces.And spends over a billion on its strategic command.And that pity DRDO you are talking about spends nearly 12000 crore rupees on development of new technologies.*
> 
> I agree withyou on one thing. On a comparison scale Indian falls behind many mamoths like US,Russia,UK,France,. but nevertheless it lagged behind too much.
> that very same Arjun you are talking about is already in production and improved variant will go into production soon.Same happened to the lightest of all combat aircrafts LCA.Deal has been signed with GE for 99 engines, not for the sake of storing them in the warehouse,but to power the next 99 MKII a/c.
> Unfortunately even critics appreciated Akash(one under long time development program)about its robustness and kill probablity.Which further got over $10 billion orders.
> All you can brag about DRDO failures is a Trishul TD program.Even the tech developed for Trishul is going into Maitri(hence not a waste of money and time)
> Every paisa spent by DRDO was utilised properly and will be used to spearhead the increase in indigenisation content.
> 
> Sometime an unresearched subject is not worth to argue about.Maybe you should better comeout with a subject that was well researched by you.


 
my frind first im talking abt Pakistan READ the bold part again and then babble (heck a kid can understand what i said) second i have been on this forum and known more than u think i know where arjun sands and where Lca stand i mean no dis respect for the projecg but u r one of those steriotype indians u just beleave all pakis are bad and so that gives u the licence to babble stupid bulls**t ....go lern english if u cant understand what i said or ask a more intelligent indian member to read it for u


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Tshering22 said:


> ^^ Dude, by a cash-strapped tiny country as our military benchmark, I think he was talking about Pakistan because I don't think we'd be comparing with ourselves if we read his comment grammatically.


thank god some one can read on this forum
and not trying to heat up the conversation but VS and comparisons r the worst of trolling avoide it every one


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## Dazzler

Instead of talking on topic, i see plenty of hatred and humiliating comments generalizing all Pakistanis even from Omega to whom i thought was more sensible! Then Indians complain they do not get a fair chance to comment on this forum!


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## Dazzler

satishkumarcsc said:


> You must be kidding right...You are comparing a 40t tank with a 60t class of tank. Dont know the advantages of a rifled bore over smooth bore, The power powered for avionics by the engine, the ground pressure, ease of maintainance, armour thickness.
> 
> Please dont compare Arjun with Al-Khald. You can compare Al-khalid with the modernized T 72s and the earlier T 90s but comparing it with Arjun is Futile...


 
Excellent post! I will inform Pak Army officials about this so they abandon AK project and replace them with t72s, along with T-80ud for future.


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## Dazzler

tell me what do you folks think about this?


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## SQ8

nabil_05 said:


> Instead of talking on topic, i see plenty of hatred and humiliating comments generalizing all Pakistanis even from Omega to whom i thought was more sensible! Then Indians complain they do not get a fair chance to comment on this forum!


 
That's nothing new.. I learned it the hard way.. 
That its kosher for Indians online to critique everything Pakistani using all possible derogatory, demeaning and cynical terms..
whilst even a little constructive.. amiable suggestion on an Indian topic by a Pakistan is nothing short of blasphemy.
God knows what social virus makes that happen.. still, dont lose hope.. there are more saner people amongst them than the cynical , sarcastic creeps that spare no chance to ruin a discussion just to appease their tiny ego's.

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## Manticore

this is alkhalid , not the alkhalid1,2


do you guys have any such stats poster , it would save me time gowing through the spams in this thread


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## SQ8

You forgot to mention IBMS...


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## Dazzler

Something sophisticated in AK and AK-1, absent from t-72 upgraded and t-90S,Israeli bms likely to be present in t-90M

Integrated Battle Field Management System (IBMS)
Manufacturer : GIDS/IDS
Detail


Integrated Battlefield Management System(IBMS) is designed for the operations of amour units in the field to meet the requirements of future battlefield. The user- friendly system provides battlefield awareness through comprehensive land navigation system based on GPS and digitized maps. It enables commanders in mission planning, modification and dissemination of plans, monitoring of battlefield at tactical and operational level, through safe and secure radio network. It facilitates integration of external sensors for data/information acquisition and showing it within the scope of C4I environments. IBMS also facilitates commanders in remote firing of AAMG by auto tracking the aerial and ground targets from inside the tank.


* Safe and secure information sharing through ad hoc networking of radios
* Remote operation of 12.7mm aamg from inside the tank
* Driver panel to facilitate driver to follow the correct route with the help of directional bars
* Auto target tracking for arial and ground targets
* Laser target indication to indicate location of the hostile elements and its engagement
* Rugged hardware to work in harsh environmental conditions based on military specifications

::GLOBAL INDUSTRIAL AND DEFENCE SOLUTIONS ::


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## MrIndianSikh

Arjun MK1 already proved its worth when it defeated T90 in trials MK2 is just going to be a even stronger beast with more teeth the reasons from IA not wanting a lot of arjuns IMO are probably because of high cost (1 arjun costs over 3 million USD) or because of corruption (IA officers love kick backs e.g Bofors Scandal)


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## Dazzler

Arjun Mk-2 fire control system.....

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## Dazzler

MrIndianSikh said:


> Arjun MK1 already proved its worth when it defeated T90 in trials MK2 is just going to be a even stronger beast with more teeth the reasons from IA not wanting a lot of arjuns IMO are probably because of high cost (1 arjun costs over 3 million USD) or because of corruption (IA officers love kick backs e.g Bofors Scandal)


 
Was not Arjun meant to be better than t-90 from its inception? No big deal if it defeated t-90S eventually, after so many years and budget over drafts. It is expensive for sure therefore numbers might be less. 3 million is for t-90S my friend not for Arjun. It must be around or just above 4 mil. I am sure Indian Army will find it hard to test it against the t-90M vladimir when it is inducted in IA. T-90 was meant to counter t-80ud and not Alkhalids. Same is the case with Arjun and t-90m that are meant for AK-1 and AK-2 soon.


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## MrIndianSikh

nabil_05 said:


> Was not Arjun meant to be better than t-90 from its inception? No big deal if it defeated t-90S eventually, after so many years and budget over drafts. It is expensive for sure therefore numbers might be less. 3 million is for t-90S my friend not for Arjun. It must be around or just above 4 mil. I am sure Indian Army will find it hard to test it against the t-90M vladimir when it is inducted in IA. T-90 was meant to counter t-80ud and not Alkhalids. Same is the case with Arjun and t-90m that are meant for AK-1 and AK-2 soon.


 
Arjun is meant to replace ancient T55 T72 and Vijayanta Tanks it was delayed no doubt about that but the DRDO hard work paid off and they made it into a beast the reasons for buying T90 like you said was to counter T80ud not to counter Al Khalid we are upgrading some of the T72 to be able to serve for a couple more years so i guess the upgraded T72 can counter the Al Khalid 

T90 per unit cost is 2.77-4.4 million USD depending on the variant 

Arjun per unit cost is 3.8 million USD


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## Roybot

ANTIBODY said:


> this is alkhalid , not the alkhalid1,2
> 
> 
> do you guys have any such stats poster , it would save me time gowing through the spams in this thread

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## Water Car Engineer

nabil_05 said:


> Arjun Mk-2 fire control system.....


 
nabil_05 do you have more details on the mark 2? Also any good links?




nabil_05 said:


> Something sophisticated in AK and AK-1, absent from t-72 upgraded and t-90S,Israeli bms likely to be present in t-90M
> 
> Integrated Battle Field Management System (IBMS)
> Manufacturer : GIDS/IDS
> Detail
> 
> 
> Integrated Battlefield Management System(IBMS) is designed for the operations of amour units in the field to meet the requirements of future battlefield. The user- friendly system provides battlefield awareness through comprehensive land navigation system based on GPS and digitized maps. It enables commanders in mission planning, modification and dissemination of plans, monitoring of battlefield at tactical and operational level, through safe and secure radio network. It facilitates integration of external sensors for data/information acquisition and showing it within the scope of C4I environments. IBMS also facilitates commanders in remote firing of AAMG by auto tracking the aerial and ground targets from inside the tank.
> 
> 
> * Safe and secure information sharing through ad hoc networking of radios
> * Remote operation of 12.7mm aamg from inside the tank
> * Driver panel to facilitate driver to follow the correct route with the help of directional bars
> * Auto target tracking for arial and ground targets
> * Laser target indication to indicate location of the hostile elements and its engagement
> * Rugged hardware to work in harsh environmental conditions based on military specifications
> 
> ::GLOBAL INDUSTRIAL AND DEFENCE SOLUTIONS ::


 
DRDO has made this.

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## ironman

nabil_05 said:


> Was not Arjun meant to be better than t-90 from its inception? No big deal if it defeated t-90S eventually,



I didn't know that DRDO guys invented time machine before Arjun project to know about T-90.



> after so many years and budget over drafts. It is expensive for sure therefore numbers might be less. 3 million is for t-90S my friend not for Arjun. It must be around or just above 4 mil.



Let we compare it fairly ? How many years taken to produce Type-90 ? ..the budget ? ... reasons for rejection ?... at least the cost ??



> I am sure Indian Army will find it hard to test it against the t-90M vladimir when it is inducted in IA.



You are expecting what ? A Mexican standoff  



> T-90 was meant to counter t-80ud and not Alkhalids. Same is the case with Arjun and t-90m that are meant for AK-1 and AK-2 soon.



Then we are jumping straight into Arjun Mk.9 ..Lets see what's the response from your side..


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## Dazzler

MrIndianSikh said....

Arjun is meant to replace ancient T55 T72 and Vijayanta Tanks

* yes it is destined to replace the obsolete fleet of above, agreed.

it was delayed no doubt about that but the DRDO hard work paid off and they made it into a beast the reasons for buying T90 like you said was to counter T80ud not to counter Al Khalid

* the delay was for more than one reasons bro, not just minor glitches but major ones, i do not want to repeat the story but it suffered on every possible technological aspect one can imagine from engine to gun, from optics to gun accuracy. Calling it delay is unjust 

we are upgrading some of the T72 to be able to serve for a couple more years so i guess the upgraded T72 can counter the Al Khalid 

* Yes theoretically even a t-72M1 can counter t-80 or even AK but reality is rather opposite. Al-zarrar is more appropriate match to t-72 fleet, both significantly updated with modern goodies.

on a side note, alzarrar has thermal imager from Italian Ariete mbt, it is known as Thetis!
T90 per unit cost is 2.77-4.4 million USD depending on the variant 

Arjun per unit cost is 3.8 million USD[/QUOTE]


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## Dazzler

Liquid said:


> nabil_05 do you have more details on the mark 2? Also any good links?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DRDO has made this.


 
I forgot to give the link, but the Arjun MK-2 fire control image is from a simulator, not the real thing. It is on trishul blog

here is link. TRISHUL: Arjun Mk2 MBT Emerges


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## Dazzler

@ ironman...

I didn't know that DRDO guys invented time machine before Arjun project to know about T-90.

* So according to you they never improvised throughout the project timeline? Current specifications are from the 70s when the project began? Very wise!

Let we compare it fairly ? How many years taken to produce Type-90 ? ..the budget ? ... reasons for rejection ?... at least the cost ??

* AK project began in 1990-91, took 10 years from type-90 to AK, budget is 20 mil from Pakistani side to convert type 90 into AK, project named in Pakistan as P-90. China did not want a light version for obvious reasons and went for heavier variant, type-98, 99, what is mutual here is the fact that both AK and type-99 share the same mbt as the base, that is type-90. It is just a matter of priority, we took the route to make it into AK, they made it into t-99, simple. Google it. 

You are expecting what ? A Mexican standoff  

* Does not worth a reply 


Then we are jumping straight into Arjun Mk.9 ..Lets see what's the response from your side..[/QUOTE]

*Again, does not qualify for a reply.


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## Omega007

To nabil,bro,when did I express hatred towards you guys??Just take a look at the Arjun mk2 thread for once.Look how much flak I had to suffer from my felow indians only because I tried to prove Al khalid's superiority over our T90S!!Just take a look.
REGARDS....


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## MrIndianSikh

i am not denying it took delays the Arjun when DRDO started Arjun they had no experience except toying around and conducting a small effort of R&D into Tanks perhaps even learning a thing or 2 from Heavy vehicles factory but India before had never designed or made a main battle tank on its own so Arjun in one word is a milestone they are platforms for the future DRDO learned from its mistakes and took criticism from army and media and made arjun into a beast albeit it took 30 years but hey the hard work paid off didnt it? Arjun MK2 if it does well in trials may get a lot of orders the army already said it wanted at least 1,200 FMBT 

nonetheless if you want to compare tanks in a civil fashion you have to compare everything including weaponry Arjun can fire the Israeli Lahat missile which has a CEP of just 0.7 meters i do not know if Al Khalid or Al Zarrar can fire ATGM


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## Omega007

Yeah,Alkhalids can fire Refleks and Kombat atgm.Though their ranges are shorter than LAHAT.Besides the LAHAT is an interim solution as V.K.Saraswat stated that DRDO is developing a mmw seeker atgm with both lock on before and after launch capability for Arjun mk2.It will be a fire and forget ATGM unlike LAHAT.


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## Dazzler

MrIndianSikh wrote....

"i am not denying it took delays the Arjun when DRDO started Arjun they had no experience except toying around and conducting a small effort of R&D into Tanks perhaps even learning a thing or 2 from Heavy vehicles factory but India before had never designed or made a main battle tank on its own so Arjun in one word is a milestone they are platforms for the future DRDO learned from its mistakes and took criticism from army and media and made arjun into a beast albeit it took 30 years but hey the hard work paid off didnt it? Arjun MK2 if it does well in trials may get a lot of orders the army already said it wanted at least 1,200 FMBT. nonetheless if you want to compare tanks in a civil fashion you have to compare everything including weaponry Arjun can fire the Israeli Lahat missile which has a CEP of just 0.7 meters i do not know if Al Khalid or Al Zarrar can fire ATGM. "


The only reason i am not going into too much technicalities is the fate of this thread which, in my opinion, does not deserve to get an off topic drift and eventually, get closed. However, there are 4 pakistani mbts that can fire a missile. 1 is AK. 2 T-80ud. 3. AZs. 4. T-85 IIAp. AK is capable of firing both Refleks (AT-11) and Kombat, so is T-80ud, rest are compatible with Refleks. AK DOES NOT have a Chinese 125mm gun, it is indigenous made with Ukrainian/ French technologies, hence, compatibility with Kombat. By the way, where have you seen me going non-civil??


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## Omega007

Guys,I can't understand one thing.IA told that they want 1200 FMBT as per the article.So in future there will be 1800 T90M and 1200 FMBT,that's 3000 tanks.But IA has a recomended force level of 4200 tanks,so there are remaining a gap of 1000-1200 tanks.How are they gonna fill that??Any one??


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## Manticore

its roo heavy for the pakistan deserts and bridges

alkhalid was tailor made for these conditions




http://www.mycity-military.com/Kopnena-vojska/Al-Khalid-tenk-Type-90-IIM-MBT-2000.html

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## Jon Snow

Omega007 said:


> Guys,I can't understand one thing.IA told that they want 1200 FMBT as per the article.So in future there will be 1800 T90M and 1200 FMBT,that's 3000 tanks.But IA has a recomended force level of 4200 tanks,so there are remaining a gap of 1000-1200 tanks.How are they gonna fill that??Any one??


 Most probably by arjun mk1,mk2..... as long as the t 90 is in service, you can bet that the arjun will be too


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## JackTR

ANTIBODY said:


> its roo heavy for the pakistan deserts and bridges
> 
> alkhalid was tailor made for these conditions



actually Arjun was designed for the terrain at french-german border. 

skip to 5.3 to see arjun move at desert:


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## kingdurgaking

nabil_05 said:


> Was not Arjun meant to be better than t-90 from its inception? No big deal if it defeated t-90S eventually, after so many years and budget over drafts. It is expensive for sure therefore numbers might be less. 3 million is for t-90S my friend not for Arjun. It must be around or just above 4 mil. I am sure Indian Army will find it hard to test it against the t-90M vladimir when it is inducted in IA. T-90 was meant to counter t-80ud and not Alkhalids. Same is the case with Arjun and t-90m that are meant for AK-1 and AK-2 soon.


 
Actually he is not entirely right.. one of the main reason for the IA lack was the doctrine was prepared with T-72 and T-90.. thats why there was a upgrade plan on T-72... If Arjun had to inducted then a new doctrine has to be forumulated.. its another big process.. this the main reason for IA.. Arjun came out good .. but came late with a penalty...


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## Dazzler

and what was so special about Arjun move in desert apart of flying dust? It was pretty slow to be honest. Compare it with AK racing in the desert.

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## Omega007

Jon Snow said:


> Most probably by arjun mk1,mk2..... as long as the t 90 is in service, you can bet that the arjun will be too


 
I hope so from my heart bro.But looking at the attitude of our army,I doubt they will do it.But if they do it will be just great.

REGARDS.


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## Omega007

kingdurgaking said:


> Actually he is not entirely right.. one of the main reason for the IA lack was the doctrine was prepared with T-72 and T-90.. thats why there was a upgrade plan on T-72... If Arjun had to inducted then a new doctrine has to be forumulated.. its another big process.. this the main reason for IA.. Arjun came out good .. but came late with a penalty...


 
But as per my knowledge,IA did operate a fleet of 280 heavy tanks.It was the 56 ton uparmored Centurion mkVIII.With thei 220 mm of frontal turret armor and 105 mm high velocity guns,they took massive toll on both the M48 Pattons and T55s.So what is the problem now when all the infrastructure is ready??With its superb guns,mobility and very thick armor with heavy ERA-NERA combo Arjun mk2 can create havoc fear in enemy tankers.It can provide us with a pcychological edge over our adversary.


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## kingdurgaking

@nabil the reason why you find Arjun slow and alkhalid is fast because.. Arjun's speed was shot from helis whose relative speed may not be known.. while your Alkhalid was shot from ground..


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## kingdurgaking

Omega007 said:


> But as per my knowledge,IA did operate a fleet of 280 heavy tanks.It was the 56 ton uparmored Centurion mkVIII.With thei 220 mm of frontal turret armor and 105 mm high velocity guns,they took massive toll on both the M48 Pattons and T55s.So what is the problem now when all the infrastructure is ready??With its superb guns,mobility and very thick armor with heavy ERA-NERA combo Arjun mk2 can create havoc fear in enemy tankers.It can provide us with a pcychological edge over our adversary.


 
IA did operate... but i "guess" the operation efficiency of the modern T-90 is much better than that... T-90 with its new upgrade out matches the centurion thats the reluctant.. T-90's sleekness and robustness has actually impressed IA..


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## Dazzler

Arjun uses hydro pneumatic suspension which is expensive as well as comfortable ride but expensive to maintain where as AK uses a combo of Torsion bars and hydraulic dampers suspension making it quite comfortable ride. A little info on latter...


http://www.suspa.com/fileadmin/3_bilder/Bilderpool/DOWNLOAD-files/Kataloge/Industrie/softline_E.pdf

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## Omega007

kingdurgaking said:


> @nabil the reason why you find Arjun slow and alkhalid is fast because.. Arjun's speed was shot from helis whose relative speed may not be known.. while your Alkhalid was shot from ground..


 
There is no big difference in cross country mobility in these two tanks.Infact it will be easier for Arjuns to operate in desert due to its one of the lowest ground pressure.It's not the weight that matters but ground pressure matters most in mobility.


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## kingdurgaking

nabil_05 said:


> Arjun uses hydro pneumatic suspension which is expensive as well as comfortable ride but expensive to maintain where as AK uses a combo of Torsion bars and hydraulic dampers suspension making it quite comfortable ride. A little info on latter...
> 
> 
> http://www.suspa.com/fileadmin/3_bilder/Bilderpool/DOWNLOAD-files/Kataloge/Industrie/softline_E.pdf


 
dont you think in war crew comfort is more important.. expensive and maintance comes next... Since it is India maintaining it... the job will be perfectly be carried out right?


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## Omega007

kingdurgaking said:


> IA did operate... but i "guess" the operation efficiency of the modern T-90 is much better than that... T-90 with its new upgrade out matches the centurion thats the reluctant.. T-90's sleekness and robustness has actually impressed IA..


 
I was not comparing the Centurion with T90.My point was that history is the evident that heavy weight tanks always gain a comfortable position compared to lighter tanks.T90 is at best comparable to AK but Arjuns are far superior.That was my point.


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## Dazzler

Overall a good show by Arjun but still on the slower side in desert! and this was not shot by helicopter.


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## Tiki Tam Tam

How does it matter whose tank is better than the other?

Let us not start a war here to test our own think-tank of ideas and disagreements!

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## Dazzler

kingdurgaking said:


> dont you think in war crew comfort is more important.. expensive and maintance comes next... Since it is India maintaining it... the job will be perfectly be carried out right?


 
You misunderstood the purpose of my post. Both MBTs have their way of providing crew comfort and both are efficient in it.

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## Mujraparty

nabil_05 said:


> Overall a good show by Arjun but still on the slower side in desert! and this was not shot by helicopter.



he might have drove slow...


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## Dazzler

Tiki Tam Tam said:


> How does it matter whose tank is better than the other?
> 
> Let us not start a war here to test our own think-tank of ideas and disagreements!


 
Check all my posts and tell me where i called Arjun or any Indian mbt "BAD"?


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## rockstarIN

nabil_05 said:


> Overall a good show by Arjun but still on the slower side in desert! and this was not shot by helicopter.


 
What makes you comment that Arjun is slower and AK is faster in the desert? from the videos? 

Come on, you came to a conclusion from some random videos shot by TV camera personnel?


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## Dazzler

rockstar said:


> What makes you comment that Arjun is slower and AK is faster in the desert? from the videos?
> 
> Come on, you came to a conclusion from some random videos shot by TV camera personnel?


 
Go to youtube or google video, search Arjun videos and post one where you see Arjun sprinting through the desert since i didnt see a single one. I did not conclude it being slow in desert and please do not be so pessimist and try to force words in my mouth.


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## Omega007

Tiki tam tam is right.Now a days in a conventional battle the winner is determined by air power.So tank vs tank discussion is realy futile.Battle scenarioes should be discussed.


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## Omega007

Nabil,I believe that AK is more manueverable and faster than Arjun.But can AK outmanuever a LAHAT,a Nag or can it outrun a longrod FSAPDS rounds fired from ARDE L52 installed in arjuns??


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## Dazzler

Tell this to those who think Arjun will knock anything out of its way which is far from realistic. At times, even an ordinary weapon system can perform well if given enough and spontaneous support in a given situation. Neither Arjun nor Alkhalid is an exception here. As good as they are, they still need support be it by air or by armor, troops.

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## Night_Raven

Indian Army Mechanized Forces and Armoured Corps video : 

See Arjun @ 3.35 onwards


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## JackTR

nabil_05 said:


> Go to youtube or google video, search Arjun videos and post one where you see Arjun sprinting through the desert since i didnt see a single one. I did not conclude it being slow in desert and please do not be so pessimist and try to force words in my mouth.



do you by any chance have any special power to calculate speed of a tank by watching youtube videos?

you did conclude that Arjun was 'slower' than AK 'Racer'.


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## GORKHALI

Check out this video at 2.58 .Arjun in desert Moving like *Lamborghini* in desert


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## Tiki Tam Tam

nabil_05 said:


> Check all my posts and tell me where i called Arjun or any Indian mbt "BAD"?



I never said you did.

But thanks for the clarification!

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 PM ----------




nabil_05 said:


> Check all my posts and tell me where i called Arjun or any Indian mbt "BAD"?



I never said you did.

My aim was to calm all down.

But thanks for the clarification!


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## saurav

ARJUN is being called DESERT FERRARI for being very slow in desert i guess..


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## GORKHALI

nabil_05 said:


> Go to youtube or google video, search Arjun videos and post one where you see Arjun sprinting through the desert since i didnt see a single one. I did not conclude it being slow in desert and please do not be so pessimist and try to force words in my mouth.


 
Go for this man!!!!drench your thirst about Arjun MBT ,why it's called as MONSTER in desert ........

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## saurav

Omega007 said:


> Nabil,*I believe that AK is more manueverable and faster than Arjun.*But can AK outmanuever a LAHAT,a Nag or can it outrun a longrod FSAPDS rounds fired from ARDE L52 installed in arjuns??



And you believe this, because..? Have you by any chance seen Arjun in desert ..?


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## rockstarIN

nabil_05 said:


> Go to youtube or google video, search Arjun videos and post one where you see Arjun sprinting through the desert since i didnt see a single one. I did not conclude it being slow in desert and please do not be so pessimist and try to force words in my mouth.


 
If you do not find anything on google or youtube, you came to the conclusion that it is slower in desert, I'm not putting words in your mouth but reply to your post only. If there is no video in youtube and google that J-10 or Rafale doing split S, you will post that it can't?

What I'm saying when you downgrade something, do not take random videos or lack of the same as a proof.


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## Dazzler

JackTR said:


> do you by any chance have any special power to calculate speed of a tank by watching youtube videos?
> 
> you did conclude that Arjun was 'slower' than AK 'Racer'.


 
I do not need special powers to observe the obvious. May be you do. Anyway, the speed and sprint of both mbts can be easily observed by merely looking at surroundings while they are moving, if you can, please do so. I hate being biased.


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## Dazzler

rockstar said:


> If you do not find anything on google or youtube, you came to the conclusion that it is slower in desert, I'm not putting words in your mouth but reply to your post only. If there is no video in youtube and google that J-10 or Rafale doing split S, you will post that it can't?
> 
> What I'm saying when you downgrade something, do not take random videos or lack of the same as a proof.


 
Friend, Arjun has had serious mobility, engine, transmission issues till 2 years ago. Are they all rectified? Can you give me a source that Indian Army is finally happy with Arjun's overall performance and DRDO? Seems to me that Arjun is forced on Indian Army by a powerful DRDO/ political lobby because if Arjun is as good as pretended, why go for the T-90m Vladimir in the first place?? I just want to know that's all.


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## Dazzler

saurav said:


> ARJUN is being called DESERT FERRARI for being very slow in desert i guess..


 
You can name it whatever you want it does not matter. Will it become McLaren F1 if you say so?


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## Ganga

nabil_05 said:


> Friend, Arjun has had serious mobility, engine, transmission issues till 2 years ago. Are they all rectified? Can you give me a source that Indian Army is finally happy with Arjun's overall performance and DRDO? Seems to me that Arjun is forced on Indian Army by a powerful DRDO/ political lobby because if Arjun is as good as pretended, why go for the T-90m Vladimir in the first place?? I just want to know that's all.


 
The Arjun is a very good tank.Most of the problems associated with it have been rectified.But one fundamental problem remains , and that is it's width.The Arjun is wider than the standard tank carrier platforms of the Indian railways.As a result the tanks cannot be stationed in other parts of the country but only in the Rajasthan and other border areas.


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## IND151

good vid Pandora 

watch his vid at 3:12


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## Dazzler

Ganga said:


> The Arjun is a very good tank.Most of the problems associated with it have been rectified.But one fundamental problem remains , and that is it's width.The Arjun is wider than the standard tank carrier platforms of the Indian railways.As a result the tanks cannot be stationed in other parts of the country but only in the Rajasthan and other border areas.


 
So basically you are saying they have sorted out most technical obstacles but they are finding it hard to tweek the original German Leo 2 design? Funny!

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## Dazzler

IND151 said:


> good vid Pandora
> 
> watch his vid at 3:12


 
I did, still a shot by heli, not from ground so one can hardly judge the speed, sprint.


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## Night_Raven

nabil_05 said:


> So basically you are saying they have sorted out most technical obstacles but they are finding it hard to tweek the original German Leo 2 design? Funny!



Leo2 ... you sure are funny !

Now I wonder why Al-Khalid surfaced without ANY problems reported whatsoever ... copies of PLA Type 90-IIM don't need any testing !


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## Jon Snow

nabil_05 said:


> Friend, Arjun has had serious mobility, engine, transmission issues till 2 years ago. Are they all rectified? Can you give me a source that Indian Army is finally happy with Arjun's overall performance and DRDO? Seems to me that Arjun is forced on Indian Army by a powerful DRDO/ political lobby because if Arjun is as good as pretended, why go for the T-90m Vladimir in the first place?? I just want to know that's all.


 
the answer is simple.... When the t 90m was ordered the arjun was facing some issues, but the drdo managed to remove all these kinks and a comparative trial was held with the t 90 and it was found that the arjun is much better than the t 90- hence all these further orders bringing the total number of arjuns in the army to 500..... The t 90 contract cannot be cancelled because
a)it was already signed
b)the arjun is more expensive
c)the hvf avadi had already created all the infrastructure and started production of the t 90 bhishma
d)the t 90 is a very good tank too.... Among all the tanks in the subcontinent in recent times it is the only tank which is battle tested


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## SupermanKaPapa

nabil_05 said:


> and what was so special about Arjun move in desert apart of flying dust? It was pretty slow to be honest. Compare it with AK racing in the desert.



AK needs to be faster than Arjun...........otherwise, how it can save its life from *the greatest warrior on the earth* in Indian mythology.


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## rockstarIN

nabil_05 said:


> Friend, Arjun has had serious mobility, engine, transmission issues till 2 years ago. Are they all rectified? Can you give me a source that Indian Army is finally happy with Arjun's overall performance and DRDO? Seems to me that Arjun is forced on Indian Army by a powerful DRDO/ political lobby because if Arjun is as good as pretended, why go for the T-90m Vladimir in the first place?? I just want to know that's all.


 
it is the doctrine and the support systems, our strike corps needed less weighted tanks as stated by Kigndurgaking as their suport systems is configured like the same. And if you think it is as pretended, how come it did well in trails as well as foreigners are praising it?


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## Dazzler




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## Jon Snow

business-standard.com/india/news/arjun-tank-outruns-outguns-russian-t-90/389650/

thats the link for the comparative trials- as you can see it happened in 2010, long after all the contracts for the t 90 had been signed


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## Night_Raven

nabil_05 said:


>


 
This is an Arjun MBT discussion ... dont derail the thread with AK videos ...if you need , create a separate thread for that...


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## SupermanKaPapa

nabil_05 said:


> You can name it whatever you want it does not matter. Will it become McLaren F1 if you say so?



And you can say whatever you want. It also does not matter.

*What matter is, this:*


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## Areesh

Night_Raven said:


> This is an Arjun MBT discussion ... dont derail the thread with AK videos ...if you need , create a separate thread for that...


 
If it is a Arjun MBT discussion than why the hell you were bringing in AK in previous posts on this thread. Confused much new troll???


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## Ganga

The problem with Arjun is that there was so much negative media while it was under development that people are having a hard time believing that all the problems have been rectified and that the final product is very good. The Israelis are considered tank experts and when they say something about tanks it deserves attention.There is a saying about Tejas

"Those who criticized her never flew her , those who flew her never criticized her"

The same thing is happening here too.


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## GORKHALI

nabil_05 said:


> Friend, Arjun has had *serious mobility, engine, transmission issues* till 2 years ago. Are they all rectified? Can you give me a source that Indian Army is finally happy with Arjun's overall performance and DRDO? *Seems to me that Arjun is forced on Indian Army by a powerful DRDO/ political lobby because if Arjun is as good as pretended,* why go for the T-90m Vladimir in the first place?? I just want to know that's all.


 
I don't know where you get this hypothesis that DRDO forced political system to accept its equipment ???Do you have any link to it ??
In any country Armed force is one of the most powerful entity ,asked your army they knows this better .No body had ever forced Indian army to buy its thing , if its satisfy its AFR then it happily accept it.Arjun MBT satisfied its required performance and now going to another level as MK2 ,you just keep yourself updated kid and watchout ,how many Arjun tank will be in IA by2015 and how many Ak will be in PA....


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## SupermanKaPapa

saumyasupratik said:


> What are the armour specifications of the Arjun?



*The Kanchan Armor*
*By P. Chacko Joseph | September 24th, 2007*

Kanchan armor is a composite armor also called sandwich armor. During the initial days, India had approached the British to co-develop a composite armor. British armor research was based in British tank research centre on Chobham Common, the reason the generic name Chobham armor for all such type of composite armor. The British were not favorable to the Indian proposal.

Development of a composite armor was earnestly taken up at Armour Design & Development Division at the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), Kanchan Bagh, Hyderabad. Like the British name Chobham, Kanchan Armor got its name from Kanchan Bagh.

Kanchan Armor uses the same principle as the Chobham armor, but the composition is different. It has Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA) and composites. RHA is a type of steel sheet used as protection for the armored vehicles since World War II. Kanchan Armor has a composite panel sandwiched between RHA. The number of layers is decided based on the user requirement.

When a projectile is fired, the armor stops it via compression and de-compression method. As the projectile hits the armor, it faces compression because of the RHA, and then it faces decompression because of the composite. When the projectile passes through several such sandwiched layers, it breaks up the APFDS or HEAT shot. A HESH shot is ineffective against a spaced armor. It definitely will not go through a layered armor.

*In 1980&#8217;s the Kanchan composite had a composition of ceramic, alumina, fiber glass and some other such materials mixed. The RHA tried out had two thicknesses, i.e. a 350 mm plate and a 315 m plate. However these two plates had the same weight as a 120mm RHA. Hence it is said that Kanchan armor is more volume at same weight. The anti-tank munitions have problems in penetrating denser mass*.

*This is the time when the Russian Tank T-72 imported by Indian Army could not penetrate the Kanchan Armor protected Arjun Tank , with APFDS at point blank range.* *Subsequently, the debate took place if the Russians had supplied us with training rounds rather than the actual ammunition.* *As a side note, in January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds.*

*Back to 1980&#8217;s, after the T-72 incident, a 106 mm RCL gun was tried on the Arjun Tank. 106 RCL&#8217;s were effective anti-tank weapons those days. It played havoc on enemy tanks in 1971 war. The Kanchan armor defeated that too.*

Kanchan armor composition has undergone massive changes since 1980&#8217;s. The volume of the RHA has been reduced to lesser mass because of better metallurgy. The composite has evolved too and it does not use the 1980&#8217;s technology anymore.


http://www.indian-military.org/army/armour/main-battle-tanks/247-mbt-arjun.html





saumyasupratik said:


> Also what APFDS rounds are used and what is their penetration capabilities?
> 
> Heard the Al Khalid can't take in the Long Rod penetrators is that true?The longest Chinese APFDS round is 560mm (Quoted from Zraver http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-f...-number-tanks-pakistan-army-6.html#post442074) long being used on their tanks so is it the same for the Al Khalids as well?



*Arjun Ammunition System*

*Two types of ammunition, namely, Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) and High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) have been fully developed and productionised for MBT Arjun*.

The complete round of Arjun ammunition system consists of a semi-combustible cartridge case with steel obturating cup, semi-combustible primer, propellant, additive liner for wear reduction of gun and FSAPDS shot/HESH shell. The semi-combustible cartridge case (SCCC) ammunition has the advantage of reduction of round and chamber length, weight of the round, ease of handling, higher muzzle velocity, higher rate of fire, longer barrel life, and logistics.


I know most of this is well known.........but for those who want to clarify their facts. Also please let me know, if anything is wrong. Thx in advance.

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## Omega007

saurav said:


> And you believe this, because..? Have you by any chance seen Arjun in desert ..?


 
I should have told for the sake of debate I believe.By the way,AK has slightly greater croscountry speed than Arjun


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## Omega007

Yeah,all the tanks including AK that use carousal autoloader can't fire longer and heavier penetrators.Just check the official pak ordnance factory website.You can find the specs of their weak FSAPDS T rounds that can penetrate only 480 mm RHA at 2000 meter.


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## SupermanKaPapa

DeathGod said:


> I am quite skeptical about these claims ... Sounds too good to be true...
> 
> 1.For starters , I dont expect any nation , be it India or anyone else to develop their 1st tank and end up making it better than a proven platform like T-90.



Coz we are licence-producing tanks since 1965 at HVF and first Indian-made tank (Vijayanta) was rolled off the Avadi HVF on December 29, 1965. So we are quite experienced in that field. Also, in today's world, exchange of knowledge is very common.




DeathGod said:


> 2. How is it possible that India without any knowledge of making armors comes up with Kanchan whom many claim is better than the Chobam on British Challenger. Not a single Challenger has been destoryed in Iraq or Afg, which bores testimony to its armor. The british have been developing tanks since WW-1. Dont know how valid the claim of Kanchan being better than Chobam will ring true. For me , it maybe possible but not probable.



About Kanchan, already described in my previous post. As far as record of Challenger in Iraq or Afg, please tell me which tank or gunship helicopter was against them. How you can mention those wars' record as the testimony to British Challenger armor??? No doubt, it is very good and potent tank, but your logics aren't.



DeathGod said:


> 3. Also , dont think the argument " We took help from foreign players and it incorporates the best technologies " stands true for me... *The big question is that why will one nation share its most cutting edge technology with another*. What usually a country will do is to provide some kind of expertise on a technology that maybe latest now but will be soon replaced by a new one that they are developing.



This is another laughable logic. What do you mean by ToT then??? Why countries offered full ToT of jets like Rafale vs Eurofighter in MMRCA competition??




DeathGod said:


> 4. AFAIK the gun is an imported one , Guess its the Rheinmetal 120 mm rifled one , which definitely is the best in the league. Not sure if we have the capability to produce the same in India yet. Please let me know if its the case. Will make my day.



Let me make your day.



> *Arjun Gun System*
> 
> The 120 mm rifled gun for MBT Arjun is made of special steel produced by the latest ESR/Vacuum Arc Remelting process. This has enhanced the performance and fatigue life of the gun barrel. The gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa. *This is the first indigenously developed gun capable of firing at such a high service pressure achieving muzzle velocity of 1650 m/s and above.* Efficient fume extractor of the gun ensures that no toxic fumes are left in the crew compartment. The gun is fitted with FRP Thermal Insulating Jacket to obviate differential thermal effect, thereby enhancing the accuracy of the weapon system.







DeathGod said:


> 5. Night Vision and IR systems in the tank are hardly battle proven and as we all know that real test of any system ( even IT softwares) is when they are fielded. AFAIK in the desert trials there wasnt any night time fighting.





How many tanks or their systems in the world are really bettle tested???



> Fire control and navigation technologies are provided by Elbit, an Israeli defence company. The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 0.9 Pk) replaces an earlier analogue one, which had problems due to its inability to function under the harsh desert conditions. The combined day sight from Bharat Electronics Ltd. and the thermal imager (formerly from Sagem, now reported to be from El-Op) constitute the gunner's primary sight. The first batch of tanks of the 124 ordered by the Army will have an all-digital Sagem FCS, whereas the second block will have the BEL unit, which will be used for all units thereafter. The commander's own stabilised panoramic sight allows him to engage targets and/or hand them over to the gunner. The Arjun has an auxiliary power unit to operate weapon systems in silent watch mode as well.
> 
> The tank incorporates GPS-based navigation systems and sophisticated frequency hopping radios. The state-of-the-art Battlefield Management System, co-developed by DRDO and Ebit Israel, allows it to network with other fighting units. The Arjun has the capability to network with other tanks, thanks to its Battle Management System. In a search and engage operation, several Arjun tanks can monitor an opponent and his moves, and try to eliminate him in a chase or ambush.





> Regarding the T90 vs. Arjun trial, a Ministry of Defence press release reported:
> 
> After many years of trial and tribulation it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets  both stationary and moving, with pin pointed accuracy. Its superior fire-power is based on accurate and quick *target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather and shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements.*







DeathGod said:


> 6. Not sure about the engine too. Heard it breaks down every now and then , *which might not be surprising given our failed attempts with Kaveri and the like.*(Agree that Kaveri is a Jet engine while Arjun's is most probably a diesel-turbine engine but still dont think the engine manufacturing capabilities are mature)



I am unable to understand your logic of Arjun's engine and Kaveri.



> The engine and transmission are provided by *German companies* MTU and Renk respectively. The water-cooled engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and epicyclic train gearbox with four forward and 2 reverse gears






DeathGod said:


> I dont have any link or proof or any evidence to support all this and *I might well be wrong in everything I have written* but its just what *I have been able to deduce with my limited knowledge and insight*.
> 
> Welcome everyone to disprove me and provide reliable links.



Here you are very right. Please increase your knowledge and the insight will automatically improve. No offence, just want you to improve in the area of interest.




DeathGod said:


> Lastly , as mentioned earlier... The real test will be on the battlefield. We *should may be deploy some in Iraq* and see for itself



Again ............What do you think Iraq is??? A testbed??? And how we are involved with/in Iraq???

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## Dazzler

Jon Snow said:


> the answer is simple.... When the t 90m was ordered the arjun was facing some issues, but the drdo managed to remove all these kinks and a comparative trial was held with the t 90 and it was found that the arjun is much better than the t 90- hence all these further orders bringing the total number of arjuns in the army to 500..... The t 90 contract cannot be cancelled because
> a)it was already signed
> b)the arjun is more expensive
> c)the hvf avadi had already created all the infrastructure and started production of the t 90 bhishma
> d)the t 90 is a very good tank too.... Among all the tanks in the subcontinent in recent times it is the only tank which is battle tested


 
So according to you, t-90 was an interim replacement for Arjun right? So by this definition when Arjun pleased the army, t-90 orders should have been terminated. Then you say the contract can not be canceled, hmm, so IA officials did not insist to add a cancel clause which they do more often if we look at recent procurement history. My question still remains that it is the troublesome nature of Arjun that has made room for t-90S, and t-90M. Also, the latter's contract was signed when Arjun was being tested and rejected. All this point's to one thing, there are certain short comings with Arjun otherwise Indians would have never gone for t-90m.


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## Dazzler

PANDORA said:


> I don't know where you get this hypothesis that DRDO forced political system to accept its equipment ???Do you have any link to it ??
> In any country Armed force is one of the most powerful entity ,asked your army they knows this better .No body had ever forced Indian army to buy its thing , if its satisfy its AFR then it happily accept it.Arjun MBT satisfied its required performance and now going to another level as MK2 ,you just keep yourself updated kid and watchout ,how many Arjun tank will be in IA by2015 and how many Ak will be in PA....



Here is one example of politics, more to come...

http:///drdo’s-arjun-tank-scores-bull’s-eye-on-indian-army-egos


As of now PA has around 400 AKs, last batch was of AK-1, till 2015 i believe it should be around 600 or even more depending on their needs.


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## rockstarIN

nabil_05 said:


> So according to you, t-90 was an interim replacement for Arjun right? So by this definition when Arjun pleased the army, t-90 orders should have been terminated. Then you say the contract can not be canceled, hmm, so IA officials did not insist to add a cancel clause which they do more often if we look at recent procurement history. *My question still remains that it is the troublesome nature of Arjun that has made room for t-90S*, and t-90M. Also, the latter's contract was signed when Arjun was being tested and rejected. All this point's to one thing, there are certain short comings with Arjun otherwise Indians would have never gone for t-90m.


 
Your question has been answered several times here, but you choose to ignore those. Several posts it has been mentioned as our doctrine, logistics etc.


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## Dazzler

Night_Raven said:


> Leo2 ... you sure are funny !
> 
> Now I wonder why Al-Khalid surfaced without ANY problems reported whatsoever ... copies of PLA Type 90-IIM don't need any testing !


 
AK project was handled very professionally by Pak, four prototypes of varying specifications, the best that fulfilled our requirements was inducted and since then being improved. All this happened in a span of 10 years. Unlike Arjun's 35 years and counting.


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## rockstarIN

nabil_05 said:


> AK project was handled very professionally by Pak, four prototypes of varying specifications, the best that fulfilled our requirements was inducted and since then being improved. *All this happened in a span of 10 years. Unlike Arjun's 35 years and counting*.


 
There is somthing in decision making that 'you buy' or you make'. People usually do such analysis who has got enough money to buy or make. Pakistan has to work in an environment where it has to stick with the available resources. And it do well with that. That does not mean that the advisory 'bought' some and 'make' some. that basis is that we have options.


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## tjpf

nabil_05 said:


> AK project was handled very professionally by Pak, four prototypes of varying specifications, the best that fulfilled our requirements was inducted and since then being improved. All this happened in a span of 10 years. Unlike Arjun's 35 years and counting.


 
the moment it rolls out pakistan army should start counting its days coz they are numbered!!!!!!!!!!!
how is that for a fanboy statement now shall we seriously debate on ARJUN"S capability


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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Yeah,all the tanks including AK that use carousal autoloader can't fire longer and heavier penetrators.Just check the official pak ordnance factory website.You can find the specs of their weak FSAPDS T rounds that can penetrate only 480 mm RHA at 2000 meter.


 
AK-1 has addressed this issue but your info about AK unable to fire long-rod is wrong. As of 2005, all Pak AKs, T-80ud, AZ, T-85 are using DU round called Naiza, (spear), able to destroy 550-60 mm thickness at 2 km. Chinese penetrators are not used on AKs and all types of shells are developed in house with corporation of Ukraine, later with South Korean Poongsang and finally with French Nexter (GIAT industries). Another version of Naiza with classified penetration is already developed and currently being deployed. Read more buddy!


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## Dazzler

Naiza DU, notice the long rod in front of the round.... Initially designed for T-80ud, now compatible with AKs

New 125mm anti-tank DU round called NAIZA was being displayed by Al-Technique. The NAIZA is said to have a penetration of 550mm in RHA. It has been made compatible with Pakistani T-80UD tanks. « Pakisatan Forces Picture and Video

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## Omega007

nabil_05 said:


> AK-1 has addressed this issue but your info about AK unable to fire long-rod is wrong. As of 2005, all Pak AKs, T-80ud, AZ, T-85 are using DU round called Naiza, (spear), able to destroy 550-60 mm thickness at 2 km. Chinese penetrators are not used on AKs and all types of shells are developed in house with corporation of Ukraine, later with South Korean Poongsang and finally with French Nexter (GIAT industries). Another version of Naiza with classified penetration is already developed and currently being deployed. Read more buddy!


 
You should read more buddy.I told longrod rounds means rod length of over 800 mm like Arjun use 920 mm tungsten rods with weight of 9 kg.Where did DU come here from??And you don't need to believe me,believe your ordnance factory's official website.There is every detail about the FSATDS T round of AK and the rod length is written just 550 mm.Now don't say it is a fanboy article or unreliable source.
I know about your Naiza DU,it's good.That's why I told you to check my posts at the other Arjun thread.A member told me fanboy as I had said about the DU round of AK.


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## Dazzler

Naiza is not made by POF, rather by NDC, for general info check wiki....

Naiza (125 mm anti-tank round) - a DU APFSDS anti-tank round developed to be fired by T-80UD tanks in service with the Pakistan Army. A model of the round was put on display at the IDEX 2001 exhibition in the United Arab Emirates and it was stated to have a DU long rod penetrator, performance 25% greater than NDC's 105 mm DU round and a saddle-type sabot with re-arranged forward bore-rider for more accurate alignment with the T-80UD's autoloader.[3] Displayed at IDEAS 2002 alongside DU rounds produced by other Pakistani organisations. Reportedly named "Naiza", made compatible with the T-80UD tank and stated to be capable of penetrating 550 mm of RHA.[4]

National Development Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Dazzler

This is what POF manufactures.....

Pakistan Ordnance Factories


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## Omega007

nabil_05 said:


> Naiza is not made by POF, rather by NDC, for general info check wiki....
> 
> Naiza (125 mm anti-tank round) - a DU APFSDS anti-tank round developed to be fired by T-80UD tanks in service with the Pakistan Army. A model of the round was put on display at the IDEX 2001 exhibition in the United Arab Emirates and it was stated to have a DU long rod penetrator, performance 25% greater than NDC's 105 mm DU round and a saddle-type sabot with re-arranged forward bore-rider for more accurate alignment with the T-80UD's autoloader.[3] Displayed at IDEAS 2002 alongside DU rounds produced by other Pakistani organisations. Reportedly named "Naiza", made compatible with the T-80UD tank and stated to be capable of penetrating 550 mm of RHA.[4]
> 
> National Development Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
Bro,when did I tell that Naiza DU is produced in POF.I know very well that it is produced in NDC.That's why there is no information about it in POF website.I told to check for the FSAPDS T rounds that are produced in POF.
REGARDS....


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## Dazzler

If a regular APFSDS round struggles with a normal penetrator, this is where the long rod comes to equation bro.


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## GORKHALI

nabil_05 said:


> Here is one example of politics, more to come...
> 
> http:///drdo’s-arjun-tank-scores-bull’s-eye-on-indian-army-egos
> 
> 
> As of now PA has around 400 AKs, last batch was of AK-1, till 2015 i believe it should be around 600 or even more depending on their needs.


 
what that link is ??I said show me a link where Drdo forced army to buy its things..And 600 order of AK thats it ?? And Arjun till now say 2011 got 492 and counting ,Let the arjun mk2 ends its trail period which is right now going on Thar desert and you witness 800 to 1200 arjun mbt in inventory ,take my words for this...


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## Dazzler

Read what i said, Order depends on PA requirements. Also the fact that AK-2 is in development stage so there has to be room to accommodate it as well.


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## Omega007

So,496 Arjuns are almost confirmed.More order will be placed.IA still uses 800 T55s and Vijayantas that will be replaced by Arjuns as per A.K.Antony told in parliament last year.


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## GORKHALI

nabil_05 said:


> Read what i said, Order depends on PA requirements. Also the fact that AK-2 is in development stage so there has to be room to accommodate it as well.


 
So do you think 800 - 1000 arjun mk2 is a small number to start  ?? Arjun mk2 order depend how it showcase and proves its metal in standard set by Army which it already started doing in thar ....


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## IND151

Omega007 said:


> So,496 Arjuns are almost confirmed.More order will be placed.IA still uses 800 T55s and Vijayantas that will be replaced by Arjuns as per A.K.Antony told in parliament last year.


 
i hope this happens. dont forget army's behavior


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## Omega007

PANDORA said:


> So do you think 800 - 1000 arjun mk2 is a small number to start  ?? Arjun mk2 order depend how it showcase and proves its metal in standard set by Army which it already started doing in thar ....


 
Don't say it now.The over the border members may start jumping for source.


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## Dazzler

Omega007 said:


> Don't say it now.The over the border members may start jumping for source.


 
Count me out of those who jump for sources but the number seem too ambitious. Lets see if these are inducted within the next 35 years judging by Arjun's development history.


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## DarK-LorD

nabil_05 said:


> Count me out of those who jump for sources but the number seem too ambitious. Lets see if these are inducted within the next 35 years judging by Arjun's development history.


35 years??Why not 350?


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## Omega007

nabil_05 said:


> Count me out of those who jump for sources but the number seem too ambitious. Lets see if these are inducted within the next 35 years judging by Arjun's development history.


 
I did not talk about you there.And yeah,the development was slow but now the whole infra is in place and mk2 is developed within 1 year of project announcement.Current facility at HVF can produce 60 Arjuns/year.But if a huge order like 1000 tanks are finalised then the facility will be expanded to increase the rate.Same thing happened to MKI.Atfirst HAL could assemble 14/year but now they can assemble 30 MKIs/year.That's how it's done every where in the world.
By the way,you did not answer when did I express hatred towards you guys.
REGARDS.


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## Dazzler

Omega wrote...

"Don't waste your time replying to these pakistanis.I have seen one of them saying that DRDO stole the PSLV technology from ISRO to develop the Agni missiles!!!!" 

Do not tell me you wrote the above by mistake. You seemed to have exposed yourself there. Check page 9 of this thread.


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## Omega007

nabil_05 said:


> Omega wrote...
> 
> "Don't waste your time replying to these pakistanis.I have seen one of them saying that DRDO stole the PSLV technology from ISRO to develop the Agni missiles!!!!"
> 
> Do not tell me you wrote the above by mistake. You seemed to have exposed yourself there. Check page 9 of this thread.


 
I don't denye it.But it was anger,not hatred.Here pakistani members constantly make comments like Akash is copy of SA6,Nag being copy of Kornet,Prahar is created from stolen Nasr tech,IA uses ww2 era mmg and now this.Put yourself in my position and then think.If constantly hurt by such comments even the most calm person would get angry.If I say your ballistic missiles are copied chinese/NK missiles or Babur is copy of Tomahawk missiles would not you get angry??
But still,I am sorry if it hurted.
REGARDS....


----------



## Dazzler

Three year old but still relevant... 


NEW DELHI: A war has erupted in the Indian defence establishment over the indigenous Arjun main-battle tank (MBT), once again. After Army made it quite clear it did not want more than the 124 Arjuns already ordered, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has fired a retaliatory salvo.

Seeking the government's intervention to ensure "indigenous efforts" are "appropriately rewarded", DRDO says Army should order a minimum of 500 Arjuns to stabilise production lines and pave the way for the development of a "futuristic" MBT.

"We are working on the development of a futuristic Mark-II MBT with suitable technological upgrades, which can be introduced later after the completion of production of at least 500 Arjuns of the present version," said a DRDO official.

Nothing doing, responds Army. "Our requirement for 1,781 MBTs to replace the older T-55 and T-72 tanks will be met through the progressive induction of 1,657 Russian-origin T-90S tanks and 124 Arjuns," said a senior officer.

After getting 310 T-90S tanks for over Rs 3,625 crore under a February 2001 contract, India signed a Rs 4,900 crore deal with Russia last November to import another 347 T-90S tanks. The Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, in turn, has also begun the licensed manufacture of another 1,000 T-90S tanks.

Moreover, the ongoing upgradation of 692 T-72 tanks to "combat-improved Ajeya standards", of which 415 have already been delivered, will add more punch to India's armoured might.

"So, we have already catered for adequate numbers. We are now looking 20 years ahead and want DRDO to come up with a next-generation MBT. We are not against indigenous efforts...let DRDO make something better," said the officer.

DRDO, however, is crying foul over moves to demand "higher performance" from the 58.5-tonne Arjuns, which are "superior" to even the 46.5-tonne T-90s in some respects like its "excellent weight-to-power ratio and very accurate firepower on the move".

With 64 of the 124 Arjuns already ready for delivery, DRDO holds that the Army is shying away from "comparative trials" between them and the T-90S tanks, which interestingly enough have been christened "Bhishma".

While acknowledging that the Arjun project was sanctioned as far back as in 1974 at a cost of Rs 15.50 crore, which zoomed up to Rs 300 crore by 1995, DRDO says one of the main reasons for the delay was the frequently changing "qualitative requirements" of the Army.

DRDO tries to ram Arjun tanks down Army throat - The Times of India


----------



## gulte

Omega007 said:


> I don't denye it.But it was anger,not hatred.Here pakistani members constantly make comments like Akash is copy of SA6,Nag being copy of Kornet,Prahar is created from stolen Nasr tech,IA uses ww2 era mmg and now this.Put yourself in my position and then think.If constantly hurt by such comments even the most calm person would get angry.If I say your ballistic missiles are copied chinese/NK missiles or Babur is copy of Tomahawk missiles would not you get angry??
> But still,I am sorry if it hurted.
> REGARDS....



If you get hurt by these provocations, then you don't belong to PDF, no not any defense forum.


----------



## Omega007

It is a three years old thread when army was constantly refusing to hold the comparative trials.What is the point behind posting such an old news????


----------



## Omega007

gulte said:


> If you get hurt by these provocations, then you don't belong to PDF, no not any defense forum.


 
Read my post again.I did not get hurt.It was nabil bhai who got hurt by my coments.
REGARDS....


----------



## Dazzler

It is not a matter whether i or anyone got hurt, as a rule of thumb, it should be understandable. A civil debate must remain civil no matter how many opposing opinions are presented. Nationality and religion must always be kept aside from such issues. I never thought i would have to say this here, move on.


----------



## kingdurgaking

Ultimately nabil what are you trying to prove? Alkhalid-2 is better than Arjun?...


----------



## SQ8

kingdurgaking said:


> Ultimately nabil what are you trying to prove? Alkhalid-2 is better than Arjun?...


 
Why did that even come to your head?
Is that natural?
Is it necessarily for you guys to have a X > Y and where hopefully X is Indian all the time??

Is Arjun a sacred cow or something that we Pakistani's on a PAKISTANI forum cant say anything about it??
Hmm?
What is the problem here?..


----------



## saurav

nabil_05 said:


> You can name it whatever you want it does not matter. Will it become McLaren F1 if you say so?



Its not me who said this... There was even a thread about this here...


----------



## Tumba

Santro said:


> Why did that even come to your head?
> Is that natural?
> Is it necessarily for you guys to have a X > Y and where hopefully X is Indian all the time??
> 
> Is Arjun a sacred cow or something that we Pakistani's on a PAKISTANI forum cant say anything about it??
> Hmm?
> What is the problem here?..


 


it was pakistanis who started comparing pakistani(chinese) tanks with Arjun MK II ... no indian was interested in doing that ...

so if pakistanis think that a Type 90 chinese modified can beat a heavier Tank with best electronic suit and better armaments and Armour than
thr doubt should be cleared .....

in future doctrines Indian Army will start using combat coppers like ... LCH. Apache... Dhruve WSI with Tank columns ... IN LARGE NUMBERS ... which pakistani wont never be able to match .... so this is wat is going to happen ... Al Khalids will be taken out before they come face to face with Arjun MkII...


----------



## kingdurgaking

Santro said:


> Why did that even come to your head?
> Is that natural?
> Is it necessarily for you guys to have a X > Y and where hopefully X is Indian all the time??
> 
> Is Arjun a sacred cow or something that we Pakistani's on a PAKISTANI forum cant say anything about it??
> Hmm?
> What is the problem here?..


 
Nabil started with a neutral thing.. went to say Arjun is slow.. Alkhalid can penetrate Arjun.. etc etc.. We have full confidence on T-90 forget Arjun.. it is a next level lead.. which will be the platform for FMBT.. there problem is simple... Alkhalid can try to match the might of T-90.. it will take lot of time to defeat Arjun.. Arjun is tested with fire power on point blank range from T-72 and T-90..

Reactions: Like Like:
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## dr.crazze

nabil_05 said:


> Three year old but still relevant...
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: A war has erupted in the Indian defence establishment over the indigenous Arjun main-battle tank (MBT), once again. After Army made it quite clear it did not want more than the 124 Arjuns already ordered, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has fired a retaliatory salvo.
> 
> Seeking the government's intervention to ensure "indigenous efforts" are "appropriately rewarded", DRDO says Army should order a minimum of 500 Arjuns to stabilise production lines and pave the way for the development of a "futuristic" MBT.
> 
> "We are working on the development of a futuristic Mark-II MBT with suitable technological upgrades, which can be introduced later after the completion of production of at least 500 Arjuns of the present version," said a DRDO official.
> 
> Nothing doing, responds Army. "Our requirement for 1,781 MBTs to replace the older T-55 and T-72 tanks will be met through the progressive induction of 1,657 Russian-origin T-90S tanks and 124 Arjuns," said a senior officer.
> 
> After getting 310 T-90S tanks for over Rs 3,625 crore under a February 2001 contract, India signed a Rs 4,900 crore deal with Russia last November to import another 347 T-90S tanks. The Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, in turn, has also begun the licensed manufacture of another 1,000 T-90S tanks.
> 
> Moreover, the ongoing upgradation of 692 T-72 tanks to "combat-improved Ajeya standards", of which 415 have already been delivered, will add more punch to India's armoured might.
> 
> "So, we have already catered for adequate numbers. We are now looking 20 years ahead and want DRDO to come up with a next-generation MBT. We are not against indigenous efforts...let DRDO make something better," said the officer.
> 
> DRDO, however, is crying foul over moves to demand "higher performance" from the 58.5-tonne Arjuns, which are "superior" to even the 46.5-tonne T-90s in some respects like its "excellent weight-to-power ratio and very accurate firepower on the move".
> 
> With 64 of the 124 Arjuns already ready for delivery, DRDO holds that the Army is shying away from "comparative trials" between them and the T-90S tanks, which interestingly enough have been christened "Bhishma".
> 
> While acknowledging that the Arjun project was sanctioned as far back as in 1974 at a cost of Rs 15.50 crore, which zoomed up to Rs 300 crore by 1995, DRDO says one of the main reasons for the delay was the frequently changing "qualitative requirements" of the Army.
> 
> DRDO tries to ram Arjun tanks down Army throat - The Times of India


 bro i am new to this forum but i must tell you that in 3 years indian defence has changed a lot arjun is a real jewel as it is not a licensed production (ak,t90, etc) and by all means uses the best tech you can say why it was delayed because the army was confident that they can take those chinese t90 ii also called as ak by there t 72 and your t80ud by t 90s (as it happened in geogian war) but due to change in indian doctrine (cold start and quick reply) they now want some spearheads also to follow international ethics in tank command management (as china keep their type 99 in small no. and type96 in large) in todays wars the battle was done through missile guided or unguided and the reflek which ak can fire is also with india in addition lahat and nag as far as the speed of ak is concerned it is due to the turbine engine and reduced wt of 48t at the cost of excess fuel


----------



## Omega007

Forget about the Arjuns.Now the licence produced T90M is fitted with Kanchan armour because IA rejected the russian.That alone proves that how capable this armor is.Besides new T 90Ms will be equipped with the Relict ERA that can defeat even L55 rounds and the LEDs 150 APS.So the AK and AK I will get a hard time to deal with this T 90'M' tanks,let alone Arjun mk2.
REGARDS....


----------



## mayankmatador

we learned from our failures


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## dr.crazze

Omega007 said:


> Forget about the Arjuns.Now the licence produced T90M is fitted with Kanchan armour because IA rejected the russian.That alone proves that how capable this armor is.Besides new T 90Ms will be equipped with the Relict ERA that can defeat even L55 rounds and the LEDs 150 APS.So the AK and AK I will get a hard time to deal with this T 90'M' tanks,let alone Arjun mk2.
> REGARDS....


well is that only planned or is that going on???? is kanchan on the new t90m from avadi


----------



## Omega007

crazzze said:


> well is that only planned or is that going on???? is kanchan on the new t90m from avadi


 
It is not just planned,it's happening.You can search google for details.Russian armor is weak at best and crappy at worst.T 90 can't even withstand a single hit from RPG7.On the other hand Kanchan armor was able to defeat even Konkurs M and KornetE ATGMs as well as 125 IMI shots and ARDE mk2 125 mm rounds from 2A46M3 L52 guns of T90S from a mere few hundred meter distance.

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## SQ8

kingdurgaking said:


> Nabil started with a neutral thing.. went to say Arjun is slow.. Alkhalid can penetrate Arjun.. etc etc.. We have full confidence on T-90 forget Arjun.. it is a next level lead.. which will be the platform for FMBT.. there problem is simple... Alkhalid can try to match the might of T-90.. it will take lot of time to defeat Arjun.. Arjun is tested with fire power on point blank range from T-72 and T-90..


 
Whoa Whoa WHOA.

First.. he said the Arjun was slow.. compared to its contemporaries.. the closest being in the vicinity.. i.e AK.
Why is it slow? is it slow because of the AK.. or is it slow because of its design??
herein lies the perception of the post.


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## rockstarIN

Santro said:


> Whoa Whoa WHOA.
> 
> First.. he said the Arjun was slow.. compared to its contemporaries.. the closest being in the vicinity.. i.e AK.
> *Why is it slow? is it slow because of the AK.. or is it slow because of its design??*
> herein lies the perception of the post.



The first question will be ' is it slow?'


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## Mo12

Does it really matters if Pakistanis think Pakistan has the better tanks here?

Because India has the best anti-tank missile in the World. 

Javelin


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## Roybot

Ab to koi ek photo dikha do is tank ki!


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## Vibs

Santro said:


> Whoa Whoa WHOA.
> 
> First.. he said the Arjun was slow.. compared to its contemporaries.. the closest being in the vicinity.. i.e AK.
> Why is it slow? is it slow because of the AK.. or is it slow because of its design??
> herein lies the perception of the post.


 



rockstar said:


> The first question will be ' is it slow?'



I don't have data for Arjun Mk 2 or Al Khalid 2. But when you compare speeds of the first version Arjun is no way slow (Please share contradicting data if anyone has one)

Al Khalid: Maximum speed of 70 km/h
Arjun Tank:Speed 72 km/h (45 mph) Road 40 km/h (25 mph) Cross country
T 90: 60&#8211;65 km/h (37&#8211;40 mph) (depending on type of engine)

Arjun Mk2 is supposed to have missile launching capabilities. Might be possible tht the added modification may have altered the mobility specs.


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## Omega007

Mo12 said:


> Does it really matters if Pakistanis think Pakistan has the better tanks here?
> 
> Because India has the best anti-tank missile in the World.
> 
> Javelin


 
I don't think IA has Javelin atgm.And how did you come to the conclution that javelin is best atgm??


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## kingdurgaking

Santro said:


> Whoa Whoa WHOA.
> 
> First.. he said the Arjun was slow.. compared to its contemporaries.. the closest being in the vicinity.. i.e AK.
> Why is it slow? is it slow because of the AK.. or is it slow because of its design??
> herein lies the perception of the post.


 
That is what my question to him.. what is motive?.. To your reply.. check the comparison chart few pages back.. you can assume which is slow and which is not


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## SQ8

kingdurgaking said:


> That is what my question to him.. what is motive?.. To your reply.. check the comparison chart few pages back.. you can assume which is slow and which is not


 
Why must the motive always be sinister??
Another Indian member in the not so uncommon cynical tone assumed due to his paranoia that my interest in the IA's aviation arm must be some form of attempt to belittle India.


----------



## Dalai Lama

Santro said:


> Why must the motive always be sinister??
> Another Indian member in the not so uncommon cynical tone assumed due to his paranoia that my interest in the IA's aviation arm must be some form of attempt to belittle India.


 
Rule of thumb for this forum: The motive is always sinister.


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## SQ8

TheDeletedUser said:


> Rule of thumb for this forum: The motive is always sinister.


 
Rule of thumb for such a reply..

beware of the ISI!.


----------



## Capt.Popeye

Santro said:


> Rule of thumb for such a reply..
> 
> beware of the ISI!.


 
That must be for journos and politicos. All others (posters on PDF included) are safe.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Santro said:


> Rule of thumb for such a reply..
> 
> beware of the ISI!.


 
Are you saying here, in my house in southern England the ISI can do anything to me? They can harm me? Please, they don't have that kind of reach, don't talk nonsense.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> Are you saying here, in my house in southern England the ISI can do anything to me? They can harm me? Please, they don't have that kind of reach, don't talk nonsense.


 
They could be in your closet.. under the bed maybe.


----------



## Dalai Lama

Santro said:


> Rule of thumb for such a reply..
> 
> beware of the ISI!.


 
The ISI are not sinister!


----------



## The_Sidewinder

Omega007 said:


> I don't think IA has Javelin atgm.And how did you come to the conclution that javelin is best atgm??


 
India is purchasing Javelin. Using a mobile. So cant give you link. But yeah it is published in Livefist.blogspot.com by shiv aroor.


----------



## S10

You guys should ask about the fiasco Israel had bidding for Turkey's tank contract.


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## Roybot

S10 said:


> You guys should ask about the fiasco Israel had bidding for Turkey's tank contract.


 
And what has this got to do with anything?


----------



## S10

roy_gourav said:


> And what has this got to do with anything?


Don't worship Israelis so much.


----------



## Roybot

S10 said:


> Don't worship Israelis so much.


 
Did you even read the thread? Or did you just read the words Israel and Tanks and decided to quip in? No one is worshiping anyone here.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## S10

roy_gourav said:


> Did you even read the thread? Or did you just read the words Israel and Tanks and decided to quip in? No one is worshiping anyone here.


Oh I read it. Israelis are really not tough to impress, given that Turkey episode.


----------



## The_Sidewinder

S10 said:


> Don't worship Israelis so much.


 
We dont worship them but they got expertise. So they are point of view always wellcome.


----------



## Novice09

S10 said:


> Don't worship Israelis so much.


 
There is a term called cooperation...


----------



## GORKHALI

S10 said:


> Don't worship Israelis so much.


 
Just like you were doing to Soviets ??


----------



## tanlixiang28776

never mind


----------



## Novice09

As per my info... there are no drastic changes in the structure of MK II.


----------



## S10

PANDORA said:


> Just like you were doing to Soviets ??


Yes, we worshipped them by fighting border battles with them and jumping ships to American side.


----------



## dr.crazze

Omega007 said:


> It is not just planned,it's happening.You can search google for details.Russian armor is weak at best and crappy at worst.T 90 can't even withstand a single hit from RPG7.On the other hand Kanchan armor was able to defeat even Konkurs M and KornetE ATGMs as well as 125 IMI shots and ARDE mk2 125 mm rounds from 2A46M3 L52 guns of T90S from a mere few hundred meter distance.


 i disagree with you in recent 1999 Chechen invasion of Dagestan conflict it was reported that a t90 sustained 7 or 9 rpg and remained in running cond. the sheer performance only tempted russians to make t90 their lead mbt that the t80 whose logistic support is very heavy to keep the era (Kontakt-5 ) on our t90s is not that bad still if they are changing it with kanchan then it must be something thaanks in advance but can you tell me what happened to the originally planned kaktus


----------



## Omega007

crazzze said:


> i disagree with you in recent 1999 Chechen invasion of Dagestan conflict it was reported that a t90 sustained 7 or 9 rpg and remained in running cond. the sheer performance only tempted russians to make t90 their lead mbt that the t80 whose logistic support is very heavy to keep the era (Kontakt-5&#8217; ) on our t90s is not that bad still if they are changing it with kanchan then it must be something thaanks in advance but can you tell me what happened to the originally planned kaktus


 
The russian T90 only survived due to the Kontact5 heavy ERA,which can even defeat earlier generation DU rounds.The original armor of T90 is weak without the Kontact 5.Relict/Kaktus is a stronger ERA which will be used in both Indian and Russian T 90M tanks.On the other hand Kanchan is not ERA but composite armor of Arjun tank made with extencive quantity of carbon composite,glass fibers,tungsten steel and ceramic tiles that can withstand both multiple FSAPDS rounds as well as heavy atgm heat warheads which are much better than RPG7.You can search google image for Kanchan armor where is a picture of a block which defeated six 125mm IMI FSAPDS shots from a 2A46M3 L52 gun of a T 90S at point blank range without any great damage,that too in 2001.Even this armor is not used in Arjun mk1.The latest armor is said to be able to defeat even KornetE atgm.That's the quality of Kanchan armor.
REGARDS....


----------



## ironman

Omega007 said:


> The russian T90 only survived due to the Kontact5 heavy ERA,which can even defeat earlier generation DU rounds.The original armor of T90 is weak without the Kontact 5.Relict/Kaktus is a stronger ERA which will be used in both Indian and Russian T 90M tanks.On the other hand Kanchan is not ERA but composite armor of Arjun tank made with extencive quantity of carbon composite,glass fibers,tungsten steel and ceramic tiles that can withstand both multiple FSAPDS rounds as well as heavy atgm heat warheads which are much better than RPG7.You can search google image for Kanchan armor where is a picture of a block which defeated six 125mm IMI FSAPDS shots from a 2A46M3 L52 gun of a T 90S at point blank range without any great damage,that too in 2001.Even this armor is not used in Arjun mk1.The latest armor is said to be able to defeat even KornetE atgm.That's the quality of Kanchan armor.
> REGARDS....


 
Its T-72 if I remember.. the funniest part is , army double checked the round whether Russia supplied training round mistakenly.


----------



## Omega007

ironman said:


> Its T-72 if I remember.. the funniest part is , army double checked the round whether Russia supplied training round mistakenly.


 
I know about the T 72M1 and 106mm RCL gun incident but that was in late 80's.The picture on google is from 2001 if I correctly remember.This time new IMI 125mm rounds and ARDE mk2 rounds(both are far superior to the older 125 mm russian rounds)were tested from a 2A46M3 of 
T 90S against new version of Kanchan armor which it easily defeated.
REGARDS....


----------



## ironman

Sorry for a very very late reply.. 



nabil_05 said:


> @ ironman...
> 
> I didn't know that DRDO guys invented time machine before Arjun project to know about T-90.
> 
> * So according to you they never improvised throughout the project timeline? Current specifications are from the 70s when the project began? Very wise!



Tell me how you find out Arjun is engineered to defeat T-90 ?



> Let we compare it fairly ? How many years taken to produce Type-90 ? ..the budget ? ... reasons for rejection ?... at least the cost ??
> 
> * AK project began in 1990-91, took 10 years from type-90 to AK, budget is 20 mil from Pakistani side to convert type 90 into AK, project named in Pakistan as P-90. China did not want a light version for obvious reasons and went for heavier variant, type-98, 99, what is mutual here is the fact that both AK and type-99 share the same mbt as the base, that is type-90. It is just a matter of priority, we took the route to make it into AK, they made it into t-99, simple. Google it.



And you are comparing Arjun, a project made from scratch to already developed Type-90 which carries a legacy of Soviet T-54>Type-59 >Type-69>Type-79>Type-80>Type-85>Type-88>Type-90..

My friend, I will not blame you .. may be you are not from the engineering background but at-least try to understand the complexity around R&D while start from scratch... look at Turkey.. they are making a new tank... what they are following .. a joint partner OR technology provider. What is your best guess how much of assistance will they get from South Korea on percentage wise .. Mine is .. between 60 to 70. and their set goal is 2017 very much possible by that assistance.

This is what exactly done by Pakistan with China . You didn't designed the basic structure but just tweaked with better components according to your specification and that took 10 years. Now look the difference.


----------



## ironman

Omega007 said:


> I know about the T 72M1 and 106mm RCL gun incident but that was in late 80's.The picture on google is from 2001 if I correctly remember.This time new IMI 125mm rounds and ARDE mk2 rounds(both are far superior to the older 125 mm russian rounds)were tested from a 2A46M3 of
> T 90S against new version of Kanchan armor which it easily defeated.
> REGARDS....



If it is from 2001, the first batch of T-90 arrived in India is November 2001.. thats why I doubted... anyhow thanks for the information.


----------



## SQ8

ironman said:


> Sorry for a very very late reply..
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me how you find out Arjun is engineered to defeat T-90 ?
> 
> 
> 
> And you are comparing Arjun, a project made from scratch to already developed Type-90 which carries a legacy of Soviet T-54>Type-59 >Type-69>Type-79>Type-80>Type-85>Type-88>Type-90..
> 
> My friend, I will not blame you .. may be you are not from the engineering background but at-least try to understand the complexity around R&D while start from scratch... look at Turkey.. they are making a new tank... what they are following .. a joint partner OR technology provider. What is your best guess how much of assistance will they get from South Korea on percentage wise .. Mine is .. between 60 to 70. and their set goal is 2017 very much possible by that assistance.
> 
> This is what exactly done by Pakistan with China . You didn't designed the basic structure but just tweaked with better components according to your specification and that took 10 years. Now look the difference.


 
Thats all fine and dandy..

But if the tweak works.. and costs 1/10th of a scratch project.. and still has room for growth..
whats the smarter move?


----------



## ironman

Santro said:


> Thats all fine and dandy..
> 
> But if the tweak works.. and costs 1/10th of a scratch project.. and still has room for growth..
> whats the smarter move?


 
You have given 50 years for US and now going to give another 50 years to China.. Thats the difference.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Vibs

Santro said:


> Thats all fine and dandy..
> 
> But if the tweak works.. and costs 1/10th of a scratch project.. and still has room for growth..
> whats the smarter move?


 
Makes sense. Should've been done by India earlier. They are doing it now with FGFA.
But right now Arjun has already been built and modifying the base model to a more advanced one would take lesser time. Arjun MBT does outperform T-90's on certain parameters and Mk2 is said to have missile launching capabilities. Potentially an FMBT based on the base model of Arjun would be cheaper than T-90's.
Isn't that what you would do with the Al Khalid's eventually?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SQ8

ironman said:


> You have given 50 years for US and now going to give another 50 years to China.. Thats the difference.


 I dont care for diplomatic relations or the like.
I asked you a straight forward question.. not tangents in R&D relationships.

part of my work is on the AK.. Havent seen any Chinese roaming around this project for a while. perhaps you need to know more about the Pakistani r&D sector.

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## Omega007

Santro said:


> I dont care for diplomatic relations or the like.
> I asked you a straight forward question.. not tangents in R&D relationships.
> 
> part of my work is on the AK.. Havent seen any Chinese roaming around this project for a while. perhaps you need to know more about the Pakistani r&D sector.


 
Yes we should no more but how??It's wraped in secrecy just like any other country.Can disclose something??


----------



## IND151

Vibs said:


> Makes sense. Should've been done by India earlier. They are doing it now with FGFA.
> But right now Arjun has already been built and modifying the base model to a more advanced one would take lesser time. Arjun MBT does outperform T-90's on certain parameters and *Mk2 is said to have missile launching capabilities. Potentially an FMBT based on the base model of Arjun would be cheaper than T-90's.*
> Isn't that what you would do with the Al Khalid's eventually?


 
Arjun Mk 1 can also fire ATGM. 

i think F MBT should be = *chassis of Arjun + turret of black eagle + 120 MM L52 smooth bore gun. *


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## Omega007

IND151 said:


> Arjun Mk 1 can also fire ATGM.
> 
> i think F MBT should be = *chassis of Arjun + turret of black eagle + 120 MM L52 smooth bore gun. *


 
For FMBT DRDO should use a 120mm L55 or even a L60 smoothbore gun with an unmanned turret.Thus the weight can be reduced by 6-8 ton without degrading the armor.Actually the Kanchan lightweight armor is the best thing in Arjun tanks.
REGARDS....


----------



## Omega007

ironman said:


> If it is from 2001, the first batch of T-90 arrived in India is November 2001.. thats why I doubted... anyhow thanks for the information.


 
Sorry,my bad.You were right.The google picture is from 2003,not 2001.The armor was tested against newly developed ARDE mk2 125mm FSAPDS T rounds from a 2A46M3 L52 smoothbore gun at point blanck range.


----------



## ptltejas

Omega007 said:


> For FMBT DRDO should use a 120mm L55 or even a L60 smoothbore gun with an unmanned turret.Thus the weight can be reduced by 6-8 ton without degrading the armor.Actually the Kanchan lightweight armor is the best thing in Arjun tanks.
> REGARDS....


 
why smoothbore sir. and not revolving. if i m not mistaken unrevolved barrel cant fire HESH Rounds.
including mark 2 have 1500 horsepower engine(any info on such?)


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## SQ8

Omega007 said:


> Yes we should no more but how??It's wraped in secrecy just like any other country.Can disclose something??


 
Exactly.. 
So unless you know the actual ground realities, one cannot comment.
However as for disclosure.. some of us disclose what is open knowledge in most circles.

So when it comes to the question of how Chinese was the Ak.. and how Chinese is it now.. the answer is 80% before.. and 10% now.
None of the electronics in the AK are now Chinese.. all are manufactured locally from components imported from various sources.(even INDIA!!). Much like the Arjun... 
So whilst the basic tank design philosophy is from a Type-69(itself a hodgepodge of the T-54,T-64 and T-72 tank)..the AK is not a Chinese tank at all.
The idea of mine is not to compare, but rather clear up the need to bring in the argument of indigenous design as an excuse for superiority.
That is not.. and should NEVER be a criteria in comparing any equipment as far as performance is concerned. 
Where that factors in is logistics and procurement.

Back to the Arjun.. 
What happened to the rumored UAV that was to go along with the command variant? Heard a lot of talk on it on BR once.

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## Vibs

Santro said:


> Exactly..
> So unless you know the actual ground realities, one cannot comment.
> However as for disclosure.. some of us disclose what is open knowledge in most circles.
> 
> So when it comes to the question of how Chinese was the Ak.. and how Chinese is it now.. the answer is 80% before.. and 10% now.
> None of the electronics in the AK are now Chinese.. all are manufactured locally from components imported from various sources.(*even INDIA!!*). Much like the Arjun...
> So whilst the basic tank design philosophy is from a Type-69(itself a hodgepodge of the T-54,T-64 and T-72 tank)..the AK is not a Chinese tank at all.
> The idea of mine is not to compare, but rather clear up the need to bring in the argument of indigenous design as an excuse for superiority.
> That is not.. and should NEVER be a criteria in comparing any equipment as far as performance is concerned.
> Where that factors in is logistics and procurement.
> 
> Back to the Arjun..
> What happened to the rumored UAV that was to go along with the command variant? Heard a lot of talk on it on BR once.


 
Indian parts in Al Khalid??? 
Arjun Mk II is supposed to have Battle Field Management System (BFMS) that allows it to have a networked web with UAV or heli's to get realtime battle field information. 
Practicality of this sort of network was said to have been tested during Operation Vijayee Bhava although a lot of T 90's and T 72's were involved in it. No concrete details though.


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## Omega007

ptltejas said:


> why smoothbore sir. and not revolving. if i m not mistaken unrevolved barrel cant fire HESH Rounds.
> including mark 2 have 1500 horsepower engine(any info on such?)


 
Smooth bore guns has greater barrel life.That's why I told that.But yeah,they can't fire HESH rounds which are extremely effective against concrete pill boxes,that are extencively used by both india and pakistan.


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## ironman

Santro said:


> I dont care for diplomatic relations or the like.
> I asked you a straight forward question.. not tangents in R&D relationships.
> 
> part of my work is on the AK.. Havent seen any Chinese roaming around this project for a while. perhaps you need to know more about the Pakistani r&D sector.


 
The question is not how much Chinese content included in your system rather 'Is Pakistan capable of design and adapt a new system' ? .NO.. Easily your short time goals are met with that decision... but in the long run when technology improves and new requirements arrive you will be stuck with this old design left with no 'tweaks' .. That time you will recognize the imporatants of 'scratch'.


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## Bratva

ironman said:


> The question is not how much Chinese content included in your system rather 'Is Pakistan capable of design and adapt a new system' ? .NO.. Easily your short time goals are met with that decision... but in the long run when technology improves and new requirements arrive you will be stuck with this old design left with no 'tweaks' .. That time you will recognize the imporatants of 'scratch'.



A short reminder for you, Yes Pakistan Is capable of designing and adapting a new system, The Most recent example is AK-1 and AK-2 in making, which included third generation western systems plus the indigenous one's as well. 


What you fail to comprehend from Santro posts is that, Pakistani Designs are not build around short term purposes, as we know, we can not purchase new platforms so quickly, so we have to Upgrade and modernize the Designed product to the extreme levels, so yes our desigened products are modular. and can quickly adapt new changes and when new requirement arrives, we can easily integrate it with the existing paltform. So your Argument is based on weak research of how Pakistani Systems works. I suggest you should research more on Pakistani platforms, before making weak claims like this


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## SQ8

ironman said:


> The question is not how much Chinese content included in your system rather 'Is Pakistan capable of design and adapt a new system' ? .NO.. Easily your short time goals are met with that decision... but in the long run when technology improves and new requirements arrive you will be stuck with this old design left with no 'tweaks' .. That time you will recognize the imporatants of 'scratch'.


 
Incorrect again, you assume that the Ak is still a tweak in reality.
Whilst being far from it, every part of the AK is modular, turret down.. rather.. its VERY easy to meet new requirements with the AK...heck, there's even a concept of an AK with a Sam turret, one Ak APC, one Fatter AK that that would weigh 70 tons.. and a Recovery vehicle. That is adaptability.. 
Upto to you to accept it, I can, part of my work is on a few AK stuff.
I know better.


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## SQ8

Vibs said:


> Indian parts in Al Khalid???
> Arjun Mk II is supposed to have Battle Field Management System (BFMS) that allows it to have a networked web with UAV or heli's to get realtime battle field information.
> Practicality of this sort of network was said to have been tested during Operation Vijayee Bhava although a lot of T 90's and T 72's were involved in it. No concrete details though.


 
Yeah.. we have something similar operational on the AK called IBMS, working on 2.0 now..
What it does lack is the ability to connect with current UAV's fielded by the PA, which is why Arjun is a step ahead here.. it can use its Uav's or links with scout helo's such as the Dhruv and use that to plan.. and perhaps have it lase targets for ATGM's.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Dalai Lama

^^^

Liquid, what is that?


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## Water Car Engineer

TheDeletedUser said:


> ^^^
> 
> Liquid, what is that?


 
Battle Management System for tanks.


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## ironman

Santro said:


> Incorrect again, you assume that the Ak is still a tweak in reality.
> Whilst being far from it, every part of the AK is modular, turret down.. rather.. its VERY easy to meet new requirements with the AK...heck, there's even a concept of an AK with a Sam turret, one Ak APC, one Fatter AK that that would weigh 70 tons.. and a Recovery vehicle. That is adaptability..
> Upto to you to accept it, I can, part of my work is on a few AK stuff.
> I know better.


 
There is an elementary mistake in your post. Actually the tank was _designed_ as a 'modular design' to adapt newer technologies. That doesn't mean it can convert into heavy weight tank. Yes I agree with the proposed versions.. but in every modern tank design there also exists spin-off versions like Arjun have Bhim,Bridge Layer, Recovery etc.. every mentioned spin-off versions the basic structure (chassis) remains the same. Its a feature of modular design..

What Pakistan doing with Al-Khalid is replacing all the possible components and systems with newer and indigenous ones. Thats hardly we can say designing a tank.

P.S. I would surely appreciate if you made a 14 road wheel station 70 ton category.


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## nightcrawler

ironman said:


> There is an elementary mistake in your post. Actually the tank was _designed_ as a 'modular design' to adapt newer technologies. That doesn't mean it can convert into heavy weight tank. Yes I agree with the proposed versions.. but in every modern tank design there also exists spin-off versions like Arjun have Bhim,Bridge Layer, Recovery etc.. every mentioned spin-off versions the basic structure (chassis) remains the same. Its a feature of modular design..
> 
> *What Pakistan doing with Al-Khalid is replacing all the possible components and systems with newer and indigenous ones. Thats hardly we can say designing a tank.*
> 
> P.S. I would surely appreciate if you made a 14 road wheel station 70 ton category.


 
Ask any engineer...tht 'optimisation' is one of 'designing' toolkit


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## Chanakyaa

*Arjun :  The Desert Ferrari' *

*
WITH the Army in possession of 100 of the 124 Arjun Mark I Main Battle Tanks it had ordered, the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) facility that designed and developed the tank, has good reason to feel proud and prepare with confidence for the greater challenges that lie ahead. The immediate task, though, is the development of the Arjun Mark II tank, which will have a total of 93 upgrades, including 13 major improvements. The Army has placed orders for 124 Arjun Mark II tanks as well, and like the Mark I tanks, these too will roll out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), the CVRDE's neighbour at Avadi near Chennai.

The CVRDE's biggest challenge yet will be the development of the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) and unmanned ground vehicles (UGVs). We are in the process of preparing the requirements and specifications for the FMBT. We have launched technology development projects to improve its gun, engine transmission and suspension, said S. Sundaresh, Chief Controller, Armaments and Combat Engineering, DRDO. The FMBT will have an indigenous 1,500 horsepower engine and it will replace the Army's existing fleet of imported T-72 tanks, renamed Ajeya.

The UGVs will be used for surveillance, mine detection and reconnaissance of areas where nuclear, biological and chemical warfare agents have been used. We will be launching a big programme on UGVs to meet the Army's requirements. A road map is being worked out in consultation with the Army on their development, said Sundaresh. The completion of the Arjun Mark I project has brought a sense of accomplishment on the CVRDE's vast shop floors. The project was originally sanctioned in May 1974 at a cost of Rs.15.5 crore and a timeline of 10 years. The deadline and the cost were revised in 1980, 1987 and 2000. The cost at the time of the closure of the project in March 1995 was Rs.305.6 crore.

Five formidable-looking Arjun tanks rolled out of the HVF premises on August 7, 2004, marking the culmination of a 30-year saga of struggle that battled technology denial regimes, the Army's constantly varying requirements, difficulties in organising field evaluations, increase in number of prototypes, and so on. On that day, M. Natarajan, then Chief Controller (Armament and Combat Engineering), DRDO and formerly CVRDE Director, who had been associated with the Arjun project from the beginning, said, Weapons of this kind take a generation to build. When the Army wanted us to design a tank comparable with those in the United States, Germany and France, we took it up as a challenge. We had little experience then. ( Frontline, August 27, 2004). Natarajan later went on to become Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister and DRDO Director-General.

P. Sivakumar, Director, CVRDE, narrated the Arjun saga. A few tanks were delivered to the Army's 43rd Regiment for trials. Five phases of these trials were held at Pokhran and Mahajan in Rajasthan in winter, when the temperature plummets to 5° Celsius, and in summer, when the mercury sizzles at more than 45° C, and on different kinds of terrain. The Army was keen that Arjun should be able to ford waterbodies. Each tank covered 5,000 kilometres and fired 500 rounds of ammunition.

The Army wanted a third party to assess the tanks and called in experts from Israel. They subjected the tanks to more tests at the Mahajan range and were so impressed that they called it a desert Ferrari.

Arjun Mark I has imported content of more than 55 per cent, which includes the engine and the gun control system, which are from Germany, and the gunner's main sight, which is from Belgium. The tank has an excellent weight-to-power ratio, good mobility and accurate firepower. It weighs 58.5 tonnes and compares well with different heavy class of tanks available in the world. It has indigenously developed Kanchan armour, which can defeat different kinds of ammunition, and a 120mm rifled gun besides a robust transmission system and a flexible hydro-pneumatic suspension. The remaining 24 of the 124 tanks ordered by the Army will be produced by June this year, Sivakumar said.

As for Arjun Mark II, the CVRDE Director said the major upgrades would include missile-firing capability against long-range targets; panoramic sight with night vision to engage targets effectively at night; containerisation of the ammunition wing; enhanced penetration of Arjun's ammunition; a variety of ammunition; and a painted surface that will camouflage the tank.

Other major upgrades, according to Sivakumar, are explosive reactive armour; an advanced air-defence gun to shoot down helicopters; a plough to remove mines; and an advanced land navigation system. Arjun Mark II will have sensors that can detect lasers fired by an enemy tank and alert the tank to fire smoke grenades that confuse the laser. The first prototype demonstration of Ajun Mark II will take place by June 2011. By 2013-14, the first batch of about 30 tanks will roll out of the HVF, said Sivakumar.*

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## IND151

ironman said:


> You have given 50 years for US and now going to give another 50 years to China.. Thats the difference.


 
and as we have developed arjun from scratch we know its all ..... literally pp: know..... weaknesses and strengths. prdpqnw z


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## Secur

No Source mentioned ... But still Arjun is better than Al Khalid  ... Whatever helps you sleep at night ...


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## tjpf

Secur said:


> No Source mentioned ... But still Arjun is better than Al Khalid  ... Whatever helps you sleep at night ...


 again Al Khalid better than Arjun according to you ... Whatever helps you sleep at night ...


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## Secur

shree835 said:


> Good Thing you raised...
> I have couple of question...Please help me to get the answer...
> 1. If JF 17 is formidable aircraft as Chinese and say...Why it is not inducted into Chinese Air Force...??
> 2. If Al- Khalid is formidable Tank as Chinese and say...Why it is not inducted into Chinese Army...??
> 3. If J10 and other Chinese Aircraft is that much good ...then why China is Very Much Interested into Su -30 Family Aircraft from Russia.
> Please Answer me.
> What I understood... end of the day it is all Crap China Maal.


 Where does the JFT or J10 come into picture ? Can you differentiate between " tanks " or " planes " ?  Instead of answering his valid questions , you resorted to trolling to satisfy to your tinny ego ... Your top army brass very well knows the quality of this " china crap maal " ... 



tjpf said:


> again Al Khalid better than Arjun according to you ... Whatever helps you sleep at night ...


 I didn't say anything of that sort ... Do you understand English and know how to read posts in proper context or just another fan boy who jumped on the bandwagon to prove a worthless anonymously sourced article ?


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## IND151

does arjun has L 55 gun or L 52?


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## farhan_9909

India making a 65ton catagory tank as arjun mkII with kanchan armor(indegenous armor)
indegenous 1500hp engine.indegenous FCS,APS,weight 65tons around,

we are developing a tank with new design.
AkII actually will be a new tank.
NEw redesigned turret,
weight between around 55tons
6td-3 1500hp from ukraine already chosen
Last hope confirmed that 2 prototypes are developed at HIT though havent reached trials stages yet
Nabil confirmed that the armor is 100% locally developed armor as well as the ERA.though it is kep classified
apart from engine the AKII is designed at HIT,will have indegenous FCS and APS too.

both Arjun mkii and AK2 are to be inducted by 2014-15

lets see how they will perform against each other
one tank is armor king(65 ton and kanchan armor)
the other tank is mobility king(medium armor protection plus high t/w ratio)

though both of the tank willl be able to give tough challenge to any MBT in the world


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## ILLUMINATO

Secur said:


> No Source mentioned ... But still Arjun is better than Al Khalid  ... Whatever helps you sleep at night ...


Desert Ferrari' and more


Can we sleep now ????

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## farhan_9909

should i act neutral?

if yes than indeed i agree Arjun mk1 is better than basic al khalid
bt is comparable to Al khalid I.

though the Arjun armor is kanchan on par with chobham


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## Secur

ILLUMINATO said:


> &#8216;Desert Ferrari' and more
> 
> 
> Can we sleep now ????



For sure ! 

*Volume 28 - Issue 05 :: Feb. 26-Mar. 11, 2011
INDIA'S NATIONAL MAGAZINE
from the publishers of THE HINDU*

If i were you , I wont ask the Nazis the image of dear Fuhrer though


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## Water Car Engineer




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## tjpf

farhan_9909 said:


> should i act neutral?
> 
> if yes than indeed i agree Arjun mk1 is better than basic al khalid
> bt is comparable to Al khalid I.
> 
> though the Arjun armor is kanchan on par with chobham



you are talking about a nation which can afford billions of dollar on its tank design and development.
you think we will build a tank inferior to yours!

---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------




Secur said:


> For sure !
> 
> *Volume 28 - Issue 05 :: Feb. 26-Mar. 11, 2011
> INDIA'S NATIONAL MAGAZINE
> from the publishers of THE HINDU*
> 
> If i were you , I wont ask the Nazis the image of dear Fuhrer though



compare your defence budget and ours do you think its anywhere near for you to brow beat and chest thump infront of us!
what ever you build we will build something better coz we have more money don't forget


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## Secur

tjpf said:


> compare your defence budget and ours do you think its anywhere near for you to brow beat and chest thump infront of us!
> what ever you build we will build something better coz we have more money don't forget



Really ? More than China ?  Where does the money come into equation ? ... Either refute my previous claims or state you were wrong ... But since you have asked , i must remind you that the Chinese name for Al Khalid is " MBT - 2000 " ... It was co developed by China and Pakistan ... Do you seriously you can design a tank even comparable to Chinese with hell more money than you and decades of reverse engineering experience if i go by your logic ?


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## farhan_9909

what is the exact weight of Arjun mkII?

some sites say it is to 60 tons.somE SAY 65-67 TONNES

some sites say that the weight will be decreased to 55tons

any one know the 100% confirmed one?


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## Water Car Engineer

farhan_9909 said:


> what is the exact weight of Arjun mkII?
> 
> some sites say it is to 60 tons.somE SAY 65-67 TONNES
> 
> some sites say that the weight will be decreased to 55tons
> 
> any one know the 100% confirmed one?




The weight will no doubt increase...


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## ILLUMINATO

Secur said:


> For sure !
> 
> *Volume 28 - Issue 05 :: Feb. 26-Mar. 11, 2011
> INDIA'S NATIONAL MAGAZINE
> from the publishers of THE HINDU*
> 
> If i were you , I wont ask the Nazis the image of dear Fuhrer though


By that do you mean that Arjun was inducted after 26-Mar. 11, 2011.??
Specs of this version of tank would remain same even after 2021.???
So really, what was your logic ??


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## Secur

ILLUMINATO said:


> By that do you mean that Arjun was inducted after 26-Mar. 11, 2011.??
> Specs of this version of tank would remain same even after 2021.
> So really, what was your logic ??


 I dont mean nothing ... Check whom was I replying to and what for ... As for the date , the assessment was carried after the Arjun was inducted right ? Or is the tank being upgraded on a daily basis ?  Or most ridiculous of all , you are confusing Arjun Mark 2 with the one in existence today ?


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## ILLUMINATO

Secur said:


> I dont mean nothing ... Check whom was I replying to and what for ... As for the date , the assessment was carried after the Arjun was inducted right ? Or is the tank being upgraded on a daily basis ?  Or most ridiculous of all , you are confusing Arjun Mark 2 with the one in existence today ?


It is of common sense that any upgrade is ought to be better ,isn't it ??

If previous version is so advanced then just think about new version with many new upgrades.


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## Secur

ILLUMINATO said:


> It is of common sense that any upgrade is ought to be better ,isn't it ??
> 
> If previous version is so advanced then just think about new version with many new upgrades.


 let it come out and then we will talk ... there's a Al Khalid 2 too ... how can some anonymously sourced article talk about yet-to-come Arjun Mark 2 and then compare it with Al Khalid ?  Either compare the v2 of both or talk not at all ...


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## satishkumarcsc

Secur said:


> let it come out and then we will talk ... there's a Al Khalid 2 too ... how can some anonymously sourced article talk about yet-to-come Arjun Mark 2 and then compare it with Al Khalid ?  Either compare the v2 of both or talk not at all ...



Try comparing the Al-Khalid with T 90 in the IA. You cant compare Al-Khalid with Arjun which is a heavier and far more heavily equipped tank.


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## Avatar

Please close this topic as it is misleading and very old news. 
Its simply a modified post of the original post from several years ago (related to Arjun MK I).
I'm sure MK II is good but spreading misinformation wont make it any better.


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## Secur

satishkumarcsc said:


> Try comparing the Al-Khalid with T 90 in the IA. You cant compare Al-Khalid with Arjun which is a heavier and far more heavily equipped tank.


 Heavier = Better ?  Tell me and we can proceed further ...



Avatar said:


> Please close this topic as it is misleading and very old news.


 Where is it sourced from ?


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## Avatar

Secur said:


> Heavier = Better ?  Tell me and we can proceed further ...
> 
> Where is it sourced from ?



I think it's sourced from somebody's imagination, since the original author had initially written the exact same thing for the Arjun MK 1 many years ago on a different forum. To that post, I think a few additions are made to make it go with Mk-2, but besides that its a true copy.


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## farhan_9909

satishkumarcsc said:


> Try comparing the Al-Khalid with T 90 in the IA. You cant compare Al-Khalid with Arjun which is a heavier and far more heavily equipped tank.


the al khalid will have a redesigned turret,totally new tank with weight around 55 ton and 1500hp engine

now compare it with any tank in the world.


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## Abingdonboy

^^ Can't really comment on AK Mk.2 tbh, but there's no doubt the Arjun Mk.2 will be one of the finest MBTs in the world- FACT.



> For ensuring MBT survivability, the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL)&#8212;located in Kanchanabagh, Hyderabad&#8212;has developed a Mk2 variant of its Kanchan modular armour, which was made by sandwiching composite panels (ceramic, alumina, fibre-glass and nickel-alloy) between rolled homogenous armour (RHA) plates to defeat APFDS or HEAT rounds. At the same time, the DRDO&#8217;s Pune-based Composites Research Centre (CRC) and the Research and Development Establishment, Engineers [R & D E(E)], have developed multi-layered multi-functional fibre-reinforced polymer (FRP) composite hull/turret sub-structures at much lower weights in comparison with metallic counterparts. More than 40 per cent weight savings over steel hull structures have been achieved. Also developed for the Arjun Mk2 is co-cured composites integral armour (CIA), which comprises ceramic tiles and rubber sandwiched between two FRP composites layers. While the outer FRP composite layer acts as a cover and provides confinement, the ceramic layer provides primary protection against ballistic impact, and the inner FRP composite layer acts as the structural part as well as secondary energy absorbing mechanism. The rubber layer isolates stiff and brittle ceramic tiles from structural member.
> 
> The CVRDE, with IMI&#8217;s help, has also redesigned the Arjun Mk1&#8217;s turret to incorporate modular sloped armour fittings, and has developed a slat-armour package to protect the MBT against anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) attacks. It functions by placing a rigid barrier around the vehicle, which causes the shaped-charge warhead to explode at a relatively safe distance. For protecting the Arjun Mk2 against tandem-charge RPGs and guided anti-tank missiles, the CVRDE and IMI have co-developed a lightweight non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) package, comprising tiles in which two metal plates sandwich an inert liner, such as rubber. When struck by a shaped-charge&#8217;s metal jet, some of the impact energy is dissipated into the inert liner layer, and the resulting high-pressure causes a localised bending or bulging of the plates in the area of the impact. As the plates bulge, the point of jet impact shifts with the plate-bulging, increasing the effective thickness of the armour.
> 
> For ensuring fool-proof protection against new-generation anti-armour guided-missiles, the Arjun Mk2 will incorporate both multi-threat warning sensors and an active protection system (APS). The former, supplied by Elbit Systems, comprises four E-LWS sensors that can detect, categorise and pinpoint laser sources, including rangefinders, designators, beam-riders, and infra-red illuminators. E-LWS also enables direction indication for all threats, as well as audio and visual warnings. It is immune to reflection, gunfire, lightning, fire and self-electro-optical operations. The Iron Fist APS, being supplied by IMI, uses two fixed radar sensors to detect potential threats and measures distance and trajectory for providing the APS&#8217; fire-control system (FCS) with data for calculation of engagement plans. The FCS uses two ELTA Systems-built conformal, distributed radars and an infra-red sensor called Tandir, developed by Elbit Systems. When a threat is identified as imminent, an explosive projectile interceptor is launched toward it from either of the two twin-tube rotating launchers housing fin-stabilised launch cannisters. The interceptor, shaped similar to a small mortar bomb, is designed to defeat the threat even when flying in very close proximity. Iron Fist can handle multiple targets simultaneously with different intercept methods, including multiple countermeasures fired at two simultaneous threats at the same sector. Unlike other systems, the Iron Fist uses only the blast effect to defeat the threat, crushing the soft components of a shaped-charge or deflecting and destabilising the guided-missile or kinetic rod in their flight. The interceptor is made of combustible materila, and is fully consumed in the explosion. Without the risk of shrapnel, the Iron Fist APS thus provides an effective, close-in protection for MBTs operating in dense, urban environment. Finally, a mobile camouflage system has been developed and integrated into the Arjun Mk2 in collaboration with Sweden&#8217;s Barracuda Camouflage Ltd to reduce the vehicle&#8217;s signature against all known sensors and smart munitions.
> 
> For enhancing structural survivability and firing accuracy, the Arjun Mk2 will do away with the existing electro-hydraulic turret control system (which is susceptible to impact damage and can cause a fire hazard) and will instead use a totally electronic modular electric gun and turret drive stabilisation (EGTDS) system supplied by Elbit Systems. The EGTDS uses azimuth/elevation motor drives with extremely rapid response time, low-voltage power, stabilised modes of operation, and manual back-up drives in both elevation and traverse. A motor drive-control unit transforms the power supply into two 3-phase systems. These supply and control the servo motors for alignment, stabilisation and slave mode of the turret/wea*pon according to the input signals of the sensors, control handles and active sight. The system assures increased safety since it eliminates the need for the hazardous, highly flammable hydraulic fluids. In addition, it offers smooth tracking at all speeds for very heavy turrets and guns and at extreme turret gun positions, while low power consumption leads to low infra-red signature as well as low-noise levels.
> 
> The Arjun Mk2 will also incorporate a brand-new Elbit-designed Commander&#8217;s panoramic sight (CAPS)--a dual axis stabilised line-of-sight, remote-operated, periscopic system for independent target acquisition, battlefield surveillance and main gun firing in a &#8216;hunter-killer&#8217; auto-track mode. The CAPS will use a SAGEM-built Matis-STD thermal imager that operates in the 3-5 micron bandwidth, while the gunner&#8217;s sight will employ a THALES-built Catherine-FC thermal imager (operating in the 8-12 micron bandwidth. The Arjun Mk2&#8217;s turret will also housed an integrated battle management system (BMS) designed by Elbit Systems (and licence-built by Bharat Electronics Ltd), which provides rapid communications networking between the tactical tank commander and his subordinate units. It will enable the tank commander to plan missions, navigate, and continuously update situational awareness. The system will also record data for operational debriefing by using a digital data recorder, which will record and restore sight images and observation data collected during missions. This data can be shared with other elements, using the same network with the BMS, to report enemy targets. Such a concept is rapidly becoming an essential part of the digitised land forces integrated battlefield concept, combining MBTs, anti-armour teams, and attack helicopters in combined arms operations.
> 
> The Arjun Mk2&#8217;s loader will be able to load the 120mm rifled-bore main gun from a fully automated, fire-proof magazine, which will accommodate up to 10 ready rounds and deliver up to four types of ammunition types to the loader. In addition to APFSDS and HESH rounds, the Arjun Mk2 will make use of IMI-built APAM munitions designed to neutralise&#8212;especially in urban built-up terrain--tank-killer squads lurking with lethal anti-tank weapons. The APAM uses the proven concept of anti-personnel munitions based on controlled fragmentation. It deploys sub-munition shrapnel at defined intervals, covering a wide lethal area against soft targets. Each fragment is shaped to have enough kinetic energy to penetrate conventional body armour, or other materials. Also going on board the Arjun Mk2 is the laser-guided LAHAT anti-armour/anti-helicopter round, whose Israel Aerospace Industries-built target designator will be integrated with the MBT&#8217;s fire-control system. The tandem warhead-equipped LAHAT has a range of 8km when launched from a ground platform, and up to 13km, when deployed from high elevation. The missile has a 0.7 metre CEP when hitting its target at an angle of 30 degrees. Using the semi-active laser homing guidance method, LAHAT can be designated by the MBT&#8217;s gunner or through external designation from ground, mobile, or airborne observers. Firing the round requires minimal exposure in the firing position, and can be directed through the CAPS by only maintaining line--of-sight during missile flight. The missile&#8217;s trajectory can be preselected for either top attack (against MBT) or direct attack (against helicopter) engagement.
















This is a very brief part of this in-depth analysis of Mk.2 Arjun:

TRISHUL: Arjun Mk2 MBT Emerges











(These are just the specs for Mk.1!)

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## satishkumarcsc

Secur said:


> Heavier = Better ?  Tell me and we can proceed further ...
> 
> Where is it sourced from ?


yes it is....has more armour, has more power to engines, has more men as crew, has APS, has the most modern BMS, has more fuel capability, can carry more ammo.

What else do you need?

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## Black Widow

Project Arjuna should go ahead. We can Use the chasis and integrate small turrent, The tank will become Tank-ex. We will use the same chasis and make Self propelled Howitzer Bhim. We can use the same chasis for antitank and anti aircraft battery.


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## Night_Raven

Abingdonboy said:


>



Isn't this the Iron Fist APS ?


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## Killswitch

I've heard rumors the Chinese are making a heavy MBT that is in the same class (60 ton
s+). If the Chinese are ever to send tanks over to Pakistan over rail links, it could be an
opponent for Arjun. I would like to see a contest between the two....


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## navtrek

Killswitch said:


> I've heard rumors the Chinese are making a heavy MBT that is in the same class (60 ton
> s+). If the Chinese are ever to send tanks over to Pakistan over rail links, it could be an
> opponent for Arjun. I would like to see a contest between the two....



Too farfetched an idea


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## SamantK

When people here say Arjun has taken 35 years of development, I cant but feel sad that they fail to read what is available online..

Lets look at the history

 Indian indigenous Arjun MBT development history is a facinating story of Indian quest to develop a formidable Tank.The article covers the design, development and operational use of Arjun Tank. FIDSNS is greatfull to Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for its time and efforts to make this article.

The main battle tank MBT-80 which is now called MBT Arjun was conceived by the Indian Army after it realised the futility of its tanks mainly in desert conditions, during the 1971 war.

1972  1975

In October 1970 a symposium was held on the Indian Main Battle Tank (MBT) at Armoured Corps Center and School. It was attended by the representatives from Indian Army General Staff (GS), Defence Research and Development Organisation DRDO), Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) and Department of Defence Production (DODP). The main aim of the symposium was to formulate GSQR for future Indian MBT.

The first draft of Qualitative Requirement (QR) was prepared by Armoured Corps Directorate and discussed with Vice Chief of Army Staff (VCOAS).

The first General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) was issued in August 1972 as QR No. 326 for the design and development of MBT. The QR 326 was not exhaustive and with regard to specifications but featured only skeleton specifications.

The design and development of MBT based on GSQR No. 326 was taken up by the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE). The initial outlay of Rs. 15.50 Crore was sanctioned vide the Government of India (GOI) letter dated 02 May, 1974. Project Development Certification (PDC) of the project was 10 years from the date of sanction.

The MBT was to be designed around imported engine as the design and development experience to create a tank engine was not available within the time frame of the project. In 1974, DRDO had to take up design and development of a tank engine as Government of India could not import a tank engine because of political and other reasons.

1975 -1980

DRDO prepared the system configuration of the tank. Indigenous engine hardware was assembled and motoring test commenced by 1979. Indigenous suspension and transmission hardware was ready for development test. The main 115mm armament was developed and trials were carried out for proof at Balasore ranges. The gun system and fire control system design was configured. One prototype hull in mild steel was fabricated to check the fitment and assembly.

In April 1978, the Indian Army called DRDO for a meeting for mutual discussions. The aim was to change the GSQR No. 326. A series of meetings between DRDO and Indian Army, chaired by VCOAS resulted in change in GSQR. The new GSQR bearing the number 431 was issued in August 1982.

The changes in the GSQR No. 431 were

a)Increase in width and weight
b)110/115mm gun was to be replaced with a 120mm gun.
c)Improved Sighting and Fire Control system.

Essentially it meant creation of entirely new design and systems. A sum of Rs. 56.55 Crores was obtained mainly to cater to cater to GSQR changes and price escalation due to inflation/ rise in import costs.

The PDC of the project was revised. The first prototype was to be built by October 1980 and subsequently 12 prototypes were to be developed, one in every 6 months.

The indigenous engine and transmission evaluation on dynamometer was carried out during 1979-81.

1980  1985

As already mentioned that the country had no experience in building an basic internal combustion engine. The tank engine development slipped as this engine was to be made after experimenting with basics of an internal combustion engine. Project of this scale was almost impossible for nascent Indian research laboratories. By this time, the western governments had shown willingness to supply the engines. A decision was taken to import a limited number of engines (also called power packs) from M/S MTU, Germany. For the fitment On Mark 1 (Mk 1) prototypes so as not to let the development schedule of the MBT slip.

Initially MTU supplied a 700hp engine for fitment trials and subsequently supplied 1100hp engine for prototypes. The MTU was also developing a 1400hp engine as per the specifications laid down by CVRDE.

The first prototype of the MBT was developed based on GSQR No. 326 of 1972 and No. 431 of 1982.

The prototype was subjected to limited technical trials by DRDO at Avadi and Jodhpur desert area.

Subsequently, few more prototypes were produced with different configuration by 1985.

In the initial development phase, suspension, running gear and other automotive systems were being evaluated with 1100 hp engine.

1985  1990

There had been significant enhancement in the battle tank technologies world wide and there was a possibility of these tanks being introduced in the Indian Sub Continent. This prompted Indian Army to change its GSQR and in November 1985, third GSQR No. 467 was issued. The changes in GSQR were:

a)More lethal gun of 120mm caliber.
b)Requirement of Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS)
c)Development of Semi Combustible Cartridge cases and high energy propellant.
d)Integrated Fire Control System based on sight stabilized system with periscopic gunner sight.
e)Thermal Imaging system for gunners main sight for night fighting capabilities.
f)Provision of Kanchan Armour for enhanced immunity.

In addition following conditions were in the new GSQR:

Manufacture of 23 Pre production Series (PPS) Tanks to enable full scale troop trials and after that smooth transfer technology (TOT) to a production agency.
Setting of Armoured Fighting Vehicle (AFV) evaluation center and augmentation of infrastructure facilities.
Realistic assessment of technical and user trial.
Import of engines for prototypes and PPS.

The revised financial implication because of the new GSQR was Rs. 280.80 Crores which was issued in 1987. The GSQR escalated the cost of materials, stores and the import cost spiraled due to weakening Rupee.

The development of the tank was progressed with reference to the new GSQR. DRDO had to re  design the structure of chassis/ hull. The turret had to be designed again to cater to improved armour protection and a high power to weight ratio power pack. The MBT now also to feature Nuclear Biological and Chemical (NBC) warfare and protection system, Medium Fording capability, auxiliary power unit (APU), Laser Warning System (LWS) and Global Positioning System (GPS).

The period of 1985  1990 was significant in history of Arjun Tank for the progressive evolution of a number of systems through exhaustive field testing. A total of 12 Arjun Tank prototypes were built in order to prove the design, development and system integration of a number of systems through field testing.

The integration of first prototype with a proper 1400 hp engine was accomplished in 1989. During the automotive trials of the prototypes a total of 20,000 Kilometer run in various terrain. Arjun MBT covered 11000 kilometers in dessert terrain and 1000 kilometers in river bed terrain. The weapon system was also tested by firing 540 FSAPDS and 560 HESH.

1990  1995

The confidence of DRDO had built up with these prototypes and many improvements were made.

The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.

MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.

The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.

The status of the Arjun Tank was reviewed by the COAS in May 1994 and bottom line requirements were laid down. After the completion of the 1994 trials on MBT Arjun, a presentation was made to the COAS and he laid down Imperatives in August 1994.

All the additional 9 PPS tanks were handed over to Army progressively and the final handing over of the 9th PPS Tank to Army happened in 1996. The last PPS tank (i.e. XV) incorporating improvements as suggested by the Army and with add on features viz. APU, NBC, Medium Fording Capability was demonstrated to COAS and users at Avadi.

The PPS Tanks delivered to the Army during this period had covered 70,000 kilometers of automotive trials and fired 7000 rounds. The average kilometer run by a PPS tank was 4500 kilometers and 460 rounds fired from each tank.

DRDO addressed the bottom line requirements and imperatives as demanded by the COAS. The overall design of the Arjun Tank was cleared.

1995  2000

A set of dedicated trials as directed by the COAS was carried out during August  December 1995 successfully.

The Prime Minister P.V Narsimha Rao dedicated the MBT Arjun to the nation in January 1996.

The Army designated the XV PPS tank as the reference tank for production.

In the year 1997, 11 PPS tanks participated in Indian Army Exercise AGNIR.ATI-t. (A clarification on the name of the exercise is needed. It could be Exercise Agnirathi). 10 Arjun Tanks successfully completed the exercise. But the Army again came back with suggestions and modifications. In November 1997, the final list of suggested modifications and joint Action Plan for the implementation and certification was drafted. DRDO implemented the modification to the satisfaction of the Indian Army.

The Indian Amy again put the improved tanks to trials. The 43rd Armoured Regiment conducted the automotive trials. The trials were successful and Arjun tank was brought ready for full scale production.

The Arjun MBT project was successfully closed at Rupees 305 Crores. The final acceptance by the Indian Army led to placement of order for 124 Arjun Tanks in 2002.

DRDO transferred the design and other drawings to the manufacturing agency HVF in 2002.

The Authorised Holder of the Sealed Particulars is with DRDO till certain maturity level is reached in production, i.e, the first 30 tanks produced by HVF will have quality control certified by DRDO. After that Arjun Tank will be certified by DGQA.

The Future

The Arjun Tank had its detractors in form of internal rivalry of the users, the Indian arms import lobby and media seeking sensationalism. Since India did not have any Tank design experience and many defence experts expressed doubts about the viability of the Arjun Tank project when it started and questioned the capability of the CVRDE to design and develop tanks. DRDO took these challenges and ever shifting qualitative requirements, in stride. Pending a political decision, currently DRDO is gearing up for the development of Arjun Mark-2 Tanks (Arjun Mk.2).




Now, tell me what have you learnt about those 35 years..

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## Screambowl

one thing to notice. That if just PDF members (Indians) are so much concerned about the Arjun's firepower and advancement and the ability to kill any tank. I am sure those who are building it would be more concerned and doing the best to make it a a lethal weapon. 

There is no doubt we need the best due to different terrains in India. Only the best suits our requirement. Temperature, cold, rain, desert, coast everything. 
Iam sure they have developed it keeping such things in mind. And if it passes it it has to be the best in the world. 
So those who are trolling for no reason needs to really give a concern for themselves. Arjun Tank is no joke!


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## SamantK

^^ Arjun has run for over 70,000Kms and fired 7000 rounds of ammunition.. it is a worthy successor to T-72. See there is also a problem with Indian Army which always shifs the goal posts, why not induct a basic tank and then keep the development-user-feedback cycle running in the background. They could glean even more information in designing tanks..


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## Abingdonboy

samantk said:


> ^^ Arjun has run for over 70,000Kms and fired 7000 rounds of ammunition.. it is a worthy successor to T-72. See there is also a problem with Indian Army which always shifs the goal posts, why not induct a basic tank and then keep the development-user-feedback cycle running in the background. They could glean even more information in designing tanks..


This is pretty much what the IA is doing. They have ordered 248 Arjun Mk.1s (which are by themselves the most advanced MBTs in the region) but have submitted feedback to the DRDO to allow them to develop the platform further in order to be eligible for further orders hence the Mk.2. The 93 modifications were not drawn up by accident, the IA knows what they want and the DRDO had beeper deliver. There is hence some chance of a Mk.3 version before FMBT comes online once IA has had Mk.2 in service for a while.


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## SamantK

Abingdonboy said:


> This is pretty much what the IA is doing. They have ordered 248 Arjun Mk.1s (which are by themselves the most advanced MBTs in the region) but have submitted feedback to the DRDO to allow them to develop the platform further in order to be eligible for further orders hence the Mk.2. The 93 modifications were not drawn up by accident, the IA knows what they want and the DRDO had beeper deliver. There is hence some chance of a Mk.3 version before FMBT comes online once IA has had Mk.2 in service for a while.


 Yes but how the development of Arjun was handled, there were a three GSQRs and each one lead to a complete development of prototypes. They wished technologies out of their @rse, now they cannot refuse that cause Arjun has proven its worth. Ajai Shukla has infact has reported the Generals who oppose Arjun, why they are opposed no one knows but the actual users using them think them to be better..


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## Secur

Abingdonboy said:


> This is pretty much what the IA is doing. They have ordered 248 Arjun Mk.1s (which are by themselves the most advanced MBTs in the region)



Care to provide any source before making such tall claims ?  Most advanced MBT's in the region ? 

Is the chest thumping , cheer leading and bragging without limits starting again ?


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## SamantK

Secur said:


> Care to provide any source before making such tall claims ?  Most advanced MBT's in the region ?
> 
> Is the chest thumping , cheer leading and bragging without limits starting again ?


 Can you claim it is not? Can you show me link which says Arjun is not the most advanced MBTs in the region? 

Dude, please get over such childish arguments, we are discussing something, if u want to discuss you are welcome other wise stay off..


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> This is pretty much what the IA is doing. *They have ordered 248 Arjun Mk.1s*



Which shows the problem, normally the order should have been way higher with MK2 developments beeing developed at the same time to upgrade these tanks later. Higher numbers would have reduced the costs and made the further developments more useful as well. It's actually the same case with LCA MK1 and IAF, which also could be in service now, even though it is not fully meeting the development goals today but still is better than the fighters it replaces.
Our forces have an attitude to raise high requirements on indigenous development and want them to be perfect before they induct it and that's a mistake that don't help anybody. Not the forces, because they remain with old or even no arms and not the industry, since they don't get enough feedback from the operational use of these arms.

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## SamantK

sancho said:


> Which shows the problem, normally the order should have been way higher with MK2 developments beeing developed at the same time to upgrade these tanks later. Higher numbers would have reduced the costs and made the further developments more useful as well. It's actually the same case with LCA MK1 and IAF, which also could be in service now, even though it is not fully meeting the development goals today but still is better than the fighters it replaces.
> Our forces have an attitude to raise high requirements on indigenous development and want them to be perfect before they induct it and that's a mistake that don't help anybody. Not the forces, because they remain with old or even no arms and not the industry, since they don't get enough feedback from the operational use of these arms.


 exactly, why can't our armed forces accept a product with its short-comings.. not every system is perfect., in these cases there should be oversighting committee to overruled this kinda bullshit..


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## Chanakyaa

Arjun has surpassed T-90 .
That proves everything.


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## SEAL

XiNiX said:


> Arjun has surpassed T-90 .
> That proves everything.



Yea man Arjun is better T-90s in IA don't even have air conditioners.


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## Storm Force

Arjun looks a real beast..

Other tanks in SOUTH ASIA 

look really light and puney LIKE one slap from ARJUN will send them flying

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## Chanakyaa

fox said:


> Yea man Arjun is better T-90s in IA don't even have air conditioners.



Based on Target Achievement.
Certainly NOT for ACs.


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## IND151

Killswitch said:


> I've heard rumors the Chinese are making a heavy MBT that is in the same class (60 ton
> s+). If the Chinese are ever to send tanks over to Pakistan over rail links, it could be an
> opponent for Arjun. I would like to see a contest between the two....



as far I have heard, China has developed an 70 ton MBT with 155 MM gun


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## Hephaestus

IND151 said:


> as far I have heard, China has developed an 70 ton MBT with 155 MM gun



I don't think the Chinese have any tank in the 70T category. The MBT 3000 is probably in the 55T cat. Neither are T99 or T96.
155mm gun is a reality though


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## Teeta

XiNiX said:


> An Interesting Comment ... if u Appreciate Arjun ...
> 
> #1 *Arjun is getting massive Israeli help and NOT 6 as being reported in many places in media, but 8 rolled out recently. There are some Armour and rifling techniques which Isreal has taken from India as they were truly impressive. Other than that a lot of contribution from Israel. NO I CAN NOTprove this right now.
> *
> 
> *This is what i know after discussing Arjun with a high ranking scientist who is a member of the Foreign defense services board (rough translation from Hebrew) who have worked on Arjun for the last 9 months. I personally witnessed a really cool addition to the recent 8, it employs the exact same copy of the HW and SW as the Abrams self diagnostic system...not only does it tell you when the tank is not feeling well but also tells you which part. *
> 
> *there is also a battle management system deployed....the funniest part was how decked up the CO's Arjun was...the seats are amazing, even the Russian contingent (overpaid pricks) were emotionally moved to see the interior with all the widgets - and went the best capitalist tank (being sarc. and all) *
> 
> ...i think i will be able to SOMEDAY get pictures of the ARJUN M2 and let you folks see what i have seen...it a true comfort to drive that tank
> I walk among diffrent circles compared to many out here on the forum and intend to build a reputation where people believe me without much fuss...
> 
> as i will not always be able to post links (actually i am too deep into defense to rely on media and links to prove myself). Anyway i am off to a hunting trip organised my some army chaps here in India..will defanately take pictures and post that
> 
> *
> #2 You really will have a problem ...say in a desert coming close to this machine. This is a really good machine...the main gun beats the Merkava any day. *
> 
> *Bloody hell the shear energy at extended range in ft.lb delivered with the accuracy is truly astonishing...i personally think this main gun is a accidental find for Indian's. the saboy round penetrated the hull of a t-55 derelict then went through the second one behind it and the place where it pierced the sand dune had a formation of glass crystals around the sand.*
> 
> _I have an idea (to how the Pakistanis can get it)...when the crew falls to sleep driving this beast - due to its crew comfort...you could run to it and shove some tnt between the hull and the chaise _
> 
> *#3 I just saw the interior picture of Al khaled. You have a serious problem here. Is that a prototype or the finished product? I am serious , i really need to know this.*
> 
> I truly hope that it is not a finished product. If it is, my god " the very Question that arjune is a better tank is a understatement. You have no idea what you have here lads. Even if the idea is a "will get the job done and cheap to produce" Al Khaled can be mass produced is the idea of Pakistani Armour....etc etc....WHAT ARE YOU GUYS THINKING?
> 
> Someone here tell me what is the purpose of Al-k...isit supposed to take on the inferior Indian tanks and put the t-80 against the arjun (still crazy - Russian admit it will eat the t-90) ok maybe its a attempt by Pakistan to atleast get hold of technologies to create a tank..etc etc
> the nuts and bolts in alkhalid will kill the crew if a HESH round even nicked it. moreso the LR-APFSDS will cut like butter the armour....you guys better get some good reactive armour on this tiny thing. please any experts here..
> i really wish to ask some questions on the al-khaled.
> 
> #4 I*ncidentally my father worked on a series of Merkava tanks (yes yes i am a Jew) i too graduated with honors in Armour. but right now in a slightly different objective in India. anyway i agree with you maneuver is imp.
> 
> BUT THEN AGAIN in all the discussion i have seen here maneuver is something gone a miss here. i havent driven a al -k but this arjun is as maneuverable as a Abram M2(spent a lot of my time with these tanks) ..no bloody difference, i dont know maybe al-khalid is much better compared to A-M2 in maneuver.*
> 
> * You will outrange it...by what 5000m from a reflexes Chinese copy of soviet projectile...do you think no one here thought of ATGM and countermeasure. This is the classified bit in electronics Israeli gave to Arjun. I am telling you buddy, someone better get serious about countering Arjun...its mere prototype passed direct hits from t-90 AP rounds (new round), it passed fragmented top attack munitions, You want to kill it.*
> 
> *a) you need to get it tracks off
> b) in some way get the electronics off
> c) hit it at less than 200 m from something like a Milan 3 repeatedly in hopefully the same area or
> d)put a huge mine under it (has counter electronic to detect it...direct contribution from what is to be a Merkava 4 system)
> e) i would have a serious debate going against this tank on a Merkava 3 and i am honors in armour and spent a few.*
> 
> I* think the brits will be very very interested in the armour these people have developed or even the rednecks....thats the level and quality you are looking at*





Is this a joke or what? The OP sounded like an excited....*kid*.

When my grandson get some new toy, he comes upto me, hustling, with his spit going down his lips, and he talks quickly..sometimes he just mumbles...I literally thought of that while reading your OP.





Storm Force said:


> Arjun looks a real beast..
> 
> Other tanks in SOUTH ASIA
> 
> look really light and puney LIKE one slap from ARJUN will send them flying



Smaller , lighter, faster, and stealthy tanks are the future.

BTW, what is this big cylindrical thingy in the back of Arjun? Don't tell me its a fuel tank

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## datalibdaz

Teeta said:


> Is this a joke or what? You sounded like an excited....*kid*.
> 
> When my grandson get some new toy, he comes upto me, hustling, with his spit going down his lips, and he talks quickly..sometimes he just mumbles...I literally thought of that while reading your OP.
> 
> Have some class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smaller , lighter, faster, and stealthy tanks are the future.
> 
> BTW, what is this big cylindrical thingy in the back of Arjun? Don't tell me its a fuel tank



No..Noo...Your comment would extend this thread to another 20 pages with Indians whining and proving with fake idiotic articles to prove that arjun is the queen of all tanks...


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## zaxcolix

Teeta said:


> Is this a joke or what? You sounded like an excited....*kid*.
> 
> When my grandson get some new toy, he comes upto me, hustling, with his spit going down his lips, and he talks quickly..sometimes he just mumbles...I literally thought of that while reading your OP.
> 
> Have some class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smaller , lighter, faster, and stealthy tanks are the future.
> 
> BTW, what is this big cylindrical thingy in the back of Arjun? Don't tell me its a fuel tank





Is your post a joke or what? 

When my neighbors wife seem someone get a new car, she comes upto us, hissing, with her eyes going wild, and she talks quickly..sometimes she just mumbles...I literally thought of that while reading your OP.

Have some shame.

BTW, that big cylindrical thingy in the back of Arjun is provision to carry extra fuel

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## Agnostic_Indian

Teeta said:


> Is this a joke or what? The OP sounded like an excited....*kid*.
> 
> When my grandson get some new toy, he comes upto me, hustling, with his spit going down his lips, and he talks quickly..sometimes he just mumbles...I literally thought of that while reading your OP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smaller , lighter, faster, and stealthy tanks are the future.
> 
> BTW, what is this big cylindrical thingy in the back of Arjun? Don't tell me its a fuel tank



so when is M1Abrams retiring ??

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## zaxcolix

datalibdaz said:


> No..Noo...Your comment would extend this thread to another 20 pages with Indians whining and proving with fake idiotic articles to prove that arjun is the queen of all tanks...



Thank you for recognizing 'Tatta' is a troll

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## Agnostic_Indian

^^^Can some one please use " report button ".. I am on mobile.


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## Teeta

Oh so my comment to that indian kid was deleted? hah.

Anyways, this 'extra-fuel' carrying cylinder back in the tank is funny..it makes tank look like a joke. I mean, even some bullets will bust this 'fuel storage' and tank will be in fires...

Anyways, what are the specifications of Arjun-2? Any idea? Currently Pakistan's Al-Khalid-1 is superior to Arjun-1 of India over-all. Arjun will fill this gap I think.


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## Sergi

Teeta said:


> Oh so my comment to that indian kid was deleted? hah.
> 
> Anyways, this 'extra-fuel' carrying cylinder back in the tank is funny..it makes tank look like a joke. I mean, even some bullets will bust this 'fuel storage' and tank will be in fires...
> 
> Anyways, what are the specifications of Arjun-2? Any idea? Currently Pakistan's Al-Khalid-1 is superior to Arjun-1 of India over-all. Arjun will fill this gap I think.



Hahahaha I never understand the need to use other countries flags just to troll. Why not show up real flags and troll ??? 
Don't tell me you are uS citizen  

Tell me how come AK is superior to Arjun ??? You tested them in your wet dreams or what ???


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## Teeta

Sergi said:


> Hahahaha I never understand the need to use other countries flags just to troll. Why not show up real flags and troll ???
> Don't tell me you are uS citizen
> 
> Tell me how come AK is superior to Arjun ??? You tested them in your wet dreams or what ???



I'm a US citizen. Why? My grandfather was a naturalized citizen though.

How Al Khalid-1 is better than Arjun 1? Well, I happen to have glanced at the specifications of both tanks. Al Khalid-1 comes out to be superior in my view. You don't agree? Good. I don't care either. Lets make it "Arjun is superior to Al Khalid"...does that change anything for you? 

Anyhow, answer my questions. How many Arjun-II are in service?

The OP sounds like a childish rant to me, without proper punctuation.


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## Sergi

Teeta said:


> I'm a US citizen. Why? My grandfather was a naturalized citizen though.
> 
> How Al Khalid-1 is better than Arjun 1? Well, I happen to have glanced at the specifications of both tanks. Al Khalid-1 comes out to be superior in my view. You don't agree? Good. I don't care either. Lets make it "Arjun is superior to Al Khalid"...does that change anything for you?
> 
> Anyhow, answer my questions. How many Arjun-II are in service?
> 
> The OP sounds like a childish rant to me, without proper punctuation.



You are calling OP childish  great 

Don't quote me unless you have something to back it up. I am alergic to your BS troll 

BTW if you know the time zone concept you would understand some facts


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## Teeta

Sergi said:


> You are calling OP childish  great
> 
> Don't quote me unless you have something to back it up. I am alergic to your BS troll



Back it up? lol. Do you want me to post my ID here?

Anyways, I don't gaf about anything. Tell me how many Arjun-II are with Indian Army? 

Yes, OP sounded like an excited kid. I'm staying with my words.


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## Sergi

Teeta said:


> Back it up? lol. Do you want me to post my ID here?
> 
> Anyways, I don't gaf about anything. Tell me how many Arjun-II are with Indian Army?
> 
> Yes, OP sounded like an excited kid. I'm staying with my words.


Who the hell ask for your ID ??? Evenif you willing I don't care  but is it a
*Comprehension problem comrade * not the quality of English for a US citizen  
Look like you didn't get your education in states


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## Teeta

Sergi said:


> Who the hell ask for your ID ??? Evenif you willing I don't care  but is it a
> *Comprehension problem comrade * not the quality of English for a US citizen
> Look like you didn't get your education in states



Dear Indian, there was nothing to "comprehend" in your post. You are talking to me under the impression that I'm some Pakistani etc and hence you expect me to respond in a certain way. When I don't, you don't 'like' it and hence look for something else. Therefore, you come up with things "Comprehension problems". 

Anyways...Answer my question.

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## Sergi

Teeta said:


> Dear Indian, there was nothing to "comprehend" in your post. You are talking to me under the impression that I'm some Pakistani etc and hence you expect me to respond in a certain way. When I don't, you don't 'like' it and hence look for something else. Therefore, you come up with things "Comprehension problems".
> 
> Anyways...Answer my question.



Another comprehension glitch comrade 
I am calling you comrade means something to you ??? I am not implying that you are a Pak national 

Ok let me help you with comprehension here. But am not going to take your class all along. You have to learn yourself 

My post where I mention back it up that mean you should back up your claims and not your ID bot 
If you remember you said AK is better than Arjun. Explain how. And if you answer than I will answer your questions. Till then don't quote me

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## livingdead

Hey, this is a 2 year old thread, give it a rest.


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## fast

Teeta said:


> Oh so my comment to that indian kid was deleted? hah.
> 
> Anyways, this 'extra-fuel' carrying cylinder back in the tank is funny..it makes tank look like a joke. I mean, even some bullets will bust this 'fuel storage' and tank will be in fires...
> 
> Anyways, what are the specifications of Arjun-2? Any idea? Currently Pakistan's Al-Khalid-1 is superior to Arjun-1 of India over-all. Arjun will fill this gap I think.



The specifications of Arjun make it an excellent target practice tank. Its big body and big turret let less skillful Indian gunners have a better chance of hitting it. The extra fuel barrel at the back let them have a second chance of hitting it to explode into flame. IA has ordered a few dozens for target practice. Once they are blown up more will be ordered. Building on the success of the Arjun-1, Arjun-2 will no doubt go further to establish its world leading role as a target practice tank.

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## trinity

fast said:


> The specifications of Arjun make it an excellent target practice tank. Its big body and big turret let less skillful Indian gunners have a better chance of hitting it. The extra fuel barrel at the back let them have a second chance of hitting it to explode into flame. IA has ordered a few dozens for target practice. Once they are blown up more will be ordered. Building on the success of the Arjun-1, Arjun-2 will no doubt go further to establish its world leading role as a target practice tank.






Good job troll and now keep it moving. You learn from it, that;s what you should take from it.


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## sudhir007

idrw.org/?p=17536

Two senior officials of a Kerala state public sector undertaking along with some others have been booked in connection with alleged irregularities in tendering process for the procurement of parts of Arjun tanks, CBI said today.

MD of Steel Industrial Forgings Ltd, Shanavaz along with Senior Marketing Manager Valsan have been booked for alleged violation of tender norms in criminal conspiracy with Subi Mally of Subishi Impex Pvt Ltd, Mumbai, they said.

CBI has registered a case of alleged criminal conspiracy to cheat and relevant provisions of the Prevention of Corruption Act against the accused, besides invoking the Official Secrets Act.

The agency has also booked unnamed officials of Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, Chennai while a private company based in Mysore is also under its scanner.



The CBI sources said Subi allegedly used her connections with officials of Indian Ordnance Factory and Heavy Vehicles Factory to reissue the tenders for supply of Arjun tank&#8217;s components in favour of SIFL and a private firm at nearly 60 per cent higher rates.

They said Subi was allegedly given 12 per cent of the increment as kick backs for facilitating the deal. The sources said SIFL officials also received the alleged illegal gratification in the case.

Searches were carried out at the residential and office premises of the accused persons, as well as in Ordnance factory, Medak (AP).

Incriminating documents, which are under scrutiny currently, were seized by CBI officials, they said. ABS RAI


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## ANPP

fast said:


> The specifications of Arjun make it an excellent target practice tank. Its big body and big turret let less skillful Indian gunners have a better chance of hitting it. The extra fuel barrel at the back let them have a second chance of hitting it to explode into flame. IA has ordered a few dozens for target practice. Once they are blown up more will be ordered. Building on the success of the Arjun-1, Arjun-2 will no doubt go further to establish its world leading role as a target practice tank.



Yes those less skillful Indian gunner destroy your M46/48 by the help of ww2 tanks.

Again give your best tank to PAK, than we will prove which is practice tank.


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## Laughing_soldier

ANPP said:


> Yes those less skillful Indian gunner destroy your M46/48 by the help of ww2 tanks.
> 
> Again give your best tank to PAK, than we will prove which is practice tank.



Is there any reason to think him as American? He is one of the shamed Pakistani under American flag.


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## ANPP

^^^^
ap hi kr dijie & result bta dijia becz I dont have time for such jerk type compare.


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## Teeta

ANPP said:


> ^^^^
> ap hi kr dijie & result bta dijia becz I dont have time for such jerk type compare.



Uh what?


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## MilSpec

Teeta said:


> Uh what?



I sure you understood what he wrote....


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/22400-pa-tanks-comparison-contempory-tanks-23.html

vs posts with ak go here


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## ANPP

This thread introducing new style of comparison ----
just go on wiki, see few things about them & make a big comment.


*My conclusion still stands : Al Khalid-1 > Arjun.*


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## Sergi

Laughing_soldier said:


> Is there any reason to think him as American? He is one of the shamed Pakistani under American flag.



Wrong. They are Chinese trolls


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## Chanakyaa




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## Chanakyaa



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## Reichsmarschall

GORKHALI said:


> for now Compare T 72 to al khalid
> When you have advanced Al kha lide then come to us btw Arjun mk2 is here ,ready for trails (some one plz give him creadible link /sleeping pills so he can sleep well)...


asking this question after 8 foking years
where the Heck is Arjunk and how many of them were inducted by your corrupt incompetent army?



Water Car Engineer said:


> What? India isnt making a Mark 2? Matter a fact there will be another tank after mark 2 India will be working on. Its India's second tank...


whats the update on 2nd tank?
i am sure you guys would have made atleast a prototype after 8 long years

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