# Replacement of Pakistan Army's G-3 Rifles.



## Blackpearl

Pakistan Army is using POF delivered G-3 rifles. The weapon is actually from a rifle category, best suited for aimed shots. It has a longer range. but who needs long range now, and fire aimed shots. Also rifle is poor in kicking back on Shoulder. All over the world, Armies hav shifted to lower calibre: 5.56 mm. The advantages of 5.56 mm calibre over 7.62 mm (as in G-3) are:

1. Lower calibre means, lighter barrel: so lesser weight of the weapon.
2. Reduction in calibre means ammunition weight is reduced per round, so more bullets, may be carried. Thats why, mags for 5.56 calibres are 30 rounds mag instead of 20 rounds.

3. Lesser propellent in cartridge case, means low weapon recoil: thus better handling qualities.

4. Better handling qualities means, weapon is good in CQB (close quarter battles).

5. Pakistan Army is mostly fighting war in hilly region, where engagement ranges do not exceed 1500 meters. Thus '5.56' is ideally suited.

6. As weapon and its ammo is light weight, so soldier may carry weapons for longer duration, distances, causing less fatigue.

So i think, Pakistan should switch to 5.56 mm calibre. 
My vote is for Colt M4 Carbine ( USA).

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## Black Stone

Blackwater, nice name. 

I don't think we would provide you the M4.

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## Quwa

Black Stone said:


> Blackwater, nice name.
> 
> I don't think we would provide you the M4.


M4s are already in use by Pakistani SSG.

The Turks also unveiled their Mehmetcik-1 rifle...which MKE is reportedly claiming to be their own developed product and not a licensed copy...though it looks a lot like HK416. 

Pakistan's POF also has its PK-08.

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## ahussains

SO if there are shifting towards M4 or PK-08 it take a long time to get rid of G3 because its already used in huge quantity and i think G3 will be much effective then the M4 or Pk-08.


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## JK!

Newbie go to one of the threads in the army section where this has been debated to death.

There is lots of input from professional servicemen who have alot of good understanding and have separated truth from fiction.


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## Quwa

Chances are that PA will procure something local...either an upgraded variant of HK33, or maybe something jointly developed with MKE, Turkey. 

MKE has an upgrade of HK33 called T-50 (picture) and a rifle that looks very similar to HK416 called Mehmetcik-1 (picture). 

I suspect the growing cooperation between POF and MKE may result in PA's final rifle...either a Pakistani-license/variant of Mehmetcik-1 or a lot of T-50 elements going into PK-08...assuming plans to go to a lower calibre is still on the cards.

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## fatman17

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY: 

Pakistan tests assault rifle

Andrew White Jane's Land Reporter - London

The Pakistan Ministry of Defence (MoD) has procured 50 PK-8 assault rifles from Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) for evaluation tests as it considers changing calibre in line with NATO armed forces. 

*The PK-8, which fires the standard NATO 5.56 mm cartridge, has undergone tests in environments ranging from -40&#730; C to +50&#730; C and the system is being offered as a replacement for the army's existing armoury of 7.62 mm Heckler & Koch G3 assault rifles. 
Complete with an Aimpoint optical sight and Picatinny rail for add-on ancillaries such as laser pointers and underslung grenade launchers, the PK-8 has a folding stock, shorter barrel and multiple parts commonality with its larger-calibre G3 relation, according to POF. *

Any change in calibre for the army could see the procurement of around 500,000 assault rifles, although POF Director Syed Naseem Raza told Jane's that it was "very happy" with 7.62 mm weapon systems. 

*Industry sources at POF have recommended that any calibre change be gradually phased in, starting with procurements for the army's Special Service Group (SSG) and light infantry. *

Currently, certain units within the Pakistan armed forces already use 5.56 mm systems. 
Industry sources told Jane's that they were confident of seeing a new programme within a couple of years. 

The army also uses 7.62 mm AK-47 assault rifles and 9 mm MP5 submachine guns. 
Speaking at the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar in Karachi in 2006, General Ihsan, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff committee, said that a possible change from 7.62 mm to a more uniform NATO round was being considered. 
However, Gen Ihsan admitted that there were *"resource constraints" *to consider before any decision was made: "We are very conscious of equipping our soldiers with the very best possible weapons and equipment, but we must prioritise our requirements," he said. 
"We have paid substantial money into indigenous industry and we must first check this before we think about a changing calibre," said the general. Selecting the PK-8 means the MoD would not have to transfer technology from abroad to fulfil any contract.

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## peshawar

Blackwater said:


> Pakistan Army is using POF delivered G-3 rifles. The weapon is actually from a rifle category, best suited for aimed shots. It has a longer range. but who needs long range now, and fire aimed shots. Also rifle is poor in kicking back on Shoulder. All over the world, Armies hav shifted to lower calibre: 5.56 mm. The advantages of 5.56 mm calibre over 7.62 mm (as in G-3) are:
> 
> 1. Lower calibre means, lighter barrel: so lesser weight of the weapon.
> 2. Reduction in calibre means ammunition weight is reduced per round, so more bullets, may be carried. Thats why, mags for 5.56 calibres are 30 rounds mag instead of 20 rounds.
> 
> 3. Lesser propellent in cartridge case, means low weapon recoil: thus better handling qualities.
> 
> 4. Better handling qualities means, weapon is good in CQB (close quarter battles).
> 
> 5. Pakistan Army is mostly fighting war in hilly region, where engagement ranges do not exceed 1500 meters. Thus '5.56' is ideally suited.
> 
> 6. As weapon and its ammo is light weight, so soldier may carry weapons for longer duration, distances, causing less fatigue.
> 
> So i think, Pakistan should switch to 5.56 mm calibre.
> My vote is for Colt M4 Carbine ( USA).




5.56 means the person you hit aint going to be down after getting hit
its stopping power is lowers
pakistan army is fighting a very determined enemy 
if if injured he is going to fight back till death
which means 5.56 aint the best caliber which means 7.62 is better 
BESIDE USA AND NATO IS GOING TO SHIFT TOWARDS 6.8MM cause 5.56 AINT GOOD ENOUGH
beside M4 has a serious jamming proble

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## peshawar

ahussains said:


> SO if there are shifting towards M4 or PK-08 it take a long time to get rid of G3 because its already used in huge quantity and i think G3 will be much effective then the M4 or Pk-08.



in defensive battles fought in plain envoirment of punjab and sind ya g3 is a great weapon
the loc style combat ya g3 is great

but in modren war fare and specially in the war in FATA n NWFP g3 is the reason pakistan army has suffered as much as some soilder may denie it its the truth

G3 IS TOO BIG TOO UGLY AND TOO UN RELIBLE

ak47 rules in FATA and NWFP terrain

thast why most of the troops deplyed in FATA use AK47 (now they shifted from g3 to ak)

beside have you guys ever seen 4 troops sitting in a jeep carrying g3s
seems stuck


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## peshawar

oh one more thing i have hurd about the PK8 and 5.56 version of g3
pakistan army wants to stick to 7.62
and its best option are AUG BUT THEY DONT LIKE THE 5.56 
we might see an AUG with a 7.62
but then its just a roumer dont take it seriously but i sure hope its true


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## Iceman

debate all we wish to ... Pakistan is neither looking fwd to . nor planning to change rifle G-3 as the std assault wpn ....
y ... you have to keep in mind the amount of money that has gone into the project already .. we have full production facilities available to us .... and at this juncture there is no point in changing the wpn at all .. as far as latest dev in asslt rifles are concerned ... the R&D in POF are looking into it .. they have already manufactured lighter ... G-3 A3 with fibre bodies ..... and reduced recoil .. and i am sure more thoughts are going into it as well .. such as improved scope or NVDs for a std inf rifleman ... still running after a new wpn is not an option ... yes this wpn can be improved further and as i said earlier .. much is going on about that too .. i have seen the retractable hollow but rifle G-3 .. which is much much lighter than even the G-3 A3 .... 
Plus .. Pakistan also has no plan to introduce 5.56 caliber as std arms ... some work has been done in this field but ... still .. no plans as such ..

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## mohammad zafar ullah khan

the g 3 is a great rifle as the main requirementr of the pakistan army conventional warfare and the m 4 rifle needs way too much maintenance plus the cost of shifting is too high

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## SurvivoR

I am so glad to hear that Pak is not going after the 5.56 caliber, since study after study it has been proven ineffective in various real life battle scenarios. The main issues are with weight and recoil and probably the length of the barrel as well in some cases. Well the biggest issue of recoil is what the POF should be working on and as Iceman pointed out it has been reduced, will have to look in to it. 

POF should also be looking at the SCAR's interchangeable barrel quality. May be they could work out on it for the G3. These suggestions are based solely on the news that Pak is NOT looking to change its standard assault weapon.

On a similar note what about the std side arm / pistol? Do we manufacture any? I know that Musharraf used to carry a Glock (17 probably).


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## Super Falcon

do not forgot MP 5 also been used by our armed forces alot now time has came to upgarde version of MP 7 should be buy becoz MP 5 cannot panetrate any body armour


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://





MP 7 way forward


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://





this is better too


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

baretta or famas to come in place of G 3

and MP 7 in place of MP 5 these guns can aounter israeli tavor in hands of indians


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## Icarus

Pakistan Army is mostly fighting war in hilly region, where engagement ranges do not exceed 1500 meters. Thus '5.56' is ideally suited
( USA)[/QUOTE]
1500 metres means 1.5 kilometres no 5.56 Calibre rifle can shoot to that distance, as a control we can compare the AK-47(which also uses 7.62) to The G-3.
Ak-47 can shoot upto a max range of 600 metres in combat condition whereas G-3 can shoot upto a kilometre, thats why it is used as a makeshift sniper rifle by Pakarmy in operational areas by putting a scope on it. 
So the range point is void.
5.56 is not "ideal" for 1500 metres
Besides that, 5.56 lacks the penetration power of the G-3, it wont penetrate kevlar.


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## Sunny4pak

AA,
I think PK8 is better with its 7.62 mm and also its POF built very much like HK 33 looks cool in pics hope this gun meet PA requirements .......


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## booo

peshawar said:


> 5.56 means the person you hit aint going to be down after getting hit
> its stopping power is lowers
> pakistan army is fighting a very determined enemy
> if if injured he is going to fight back till death
> which means 5.56 aint the best caliber which means 7.62 is better
> BESIDE USA AND NATO IS GOING TO SHIFT TOWARDS 6.8MM cause 5.56 AINT GOOD ENOUGH
> beside M4 has a serious jamming proble



this is what the *Hollow-point bullets* are for.. right? killing in a single shot?


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## sohailbarki

Pak army must stay with 7.62 mm caz nato is also looking for this caliber you can also see this in this video.....






i personally like HK 416


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## Super Falcon

yes it is our call im sure while we are discussing here pakistani defence giants are looking very closely on reading the facts off allaspects of gun than they will decide which one is better but im sure they pick the best option possible for our soldiers


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## Patriot

Heckler & Koch HK416 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This rifle is great.PA can also get TOT for it as it already manufactures few weapons of HK locally at POF.Turkey is also replacing its G3 with HK 416.
# Turkey: The Turkish Army will adopt a locally-built HK416 clone, named the Mehmet&#231;ik-1. MKEK of Turkey will be the primary contractor. It is envisaged that the Turkish Army will replace all of its G3 rifles with the Mehmet&#231;ik-1 by 2012.


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## emotionless_teenage

Super Falcon said:


> baretta or famas to come in place of G 3
> 
> and MP 7 in place of MP 5 these guns can aounter israeli tavor in hands of indians



HK MP-7 is a PDW (personal defence weapon),intermediate between SMG and assault rifle,while tavor is an assault rifle.

both has different role to fill


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## Super Falcon

so emotionless teenage what you think gun can counter indian insas and israeli tavor for pakistan army what we pick to counter insas and tavor


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## emotionless_teenage

based on my limited experience:M16A4


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## TaimiKhan

Pakistan is not a rich country and it can not afford at this time to change its assault rifle completely to a new caliber of 5.56 specially when doubts about the effectiveness of 5.56 have been raised due to the recent conflicts, a few days back was reading somewhere that troops in Afghanistan sometime had to fire 5 direct hits to bring down a talib. So now when change in caliber is being spoken of, going to 5.56 would be not a wise decision. 

If cost effectiveness has to be looked into with minimum effect on operational capability, then the HK-417 is the best option. Reason being it has many variants with different barrel lengths making it into a useful weapon for CQ combat, as an assault rifle and also as a sniper rifle. One weapon working into different roles. Best cost effectiveness would be achieved as the firing mechanism for all variants same, only barrel length difference. 
Other reason, as we have 7.62*51mm as our standard assault rifle round, HK-417 uses the same, we don't have to change the round, will keep the same ammo, which has great stopping power and is a deadly round. No infrastructure changing to be done for ammo, huge cost saving. 
Another cost saving reason would be that HK-417 can also accommodate the magazine of G-3, so all the magazine of G-3 won't be going into waste and if HK-417 is adopted, cost of manufacturing millions of magazines would be saved too. 

So the only cost incurred would be getting the technology to make the rifle minus magazines, which is off course not a big issue as we can slowly start manufacturing the new translucent polymer magazines. 

Cost saving in replacement of ammo, infrastructure for ammo manufacturing, magazines cost saving, no problem on the operational capability of the PA, assault rifle with great stopping power and effectiveness. 

In my opinion excellent option with respect to cost and effectiveness. 

Heckler & Koch - Group Website

Modern Firearms - HK417 assault rifle

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## Kompromat

I am with you taimi on this matter , i think HK-417perfectly suits our needs .


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## MZUBAIR

Wts wrong in G-3..............its home made and impressive

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## Sunny4pak

Very rightly said there isnt any thing wrong in G3 becoz when army is satisfied then what.... 
and few of our members suggested that 5.56 caliber is better then why US and few others switching to 6.8 or ........

if army really wants to chage G3 then PK-8 would be a better option...

regards,

Sunny


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## nightrider_saulat

type-56 and much more reliable then G-3..........


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## hataf

yar i love G3

i have fired G3 in NCC
"ours is last batch who did NCC"

and i got 1st prise for shooting

i hit all 5 rounds in 2 inch circle at distance of about 200 ft

the Major who came to attend the ceremony get really surprised because my eye site is week and i was wearing glasses

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## Kompromat

MZUBAIR said:


> Wts wrong in G-3..............its home made and impressive



Too heavy , Too long , Old , not reliable in high tempratures or extreme low tempratures , Cant handle when in full auto , hard to install a grenade launcher.

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## hataf

Black Blood said:


> Too heavy , Too long , Old , not reliable in high tempratures or extreme low tempratures , Cant handle when in full auto , hard to install a grenade launcher.



but really accurate


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## LegionnairE

G3 has a long range and its damn STRONG Turkish army will change it with a Turkish design rifle which Kalekal&#305;p and MKE are working on because its not reliable in hard terrain conditions

Its jamming, no matter you clean it everyday...

But the new rifle will be 7.62x51 NATO too. Because 5.56x45 NATO ammo is completely worthless in hilly region of northern Iraq (Turkish Army's usual battleground)


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## SEAL

All the projects of army going well just need to focus on replacement of G3, Al-Khalid2 and armed Drones. 

Turkish Mehmetick is good option too.


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## LegionnairE

Mehmetcik1 was MKE's self project and it has cancelled, it was 5.56x45 but the new rifle will be 7.62x51 and it will also look like Mehmetcik1.

New Turkish national rifle will use HK G36's patented gas-piston syestem... 

If you want to replace G3 with a 5.56x45 rifle and you are also producing it yourself then quickest decision is HK33 rifle, Its most parts are same with G3s

People dont like it on forums but i hear very good things about HK33 anytime i talk with a Turkish soldier that used it.






You can clearly see the transparent magazine on HK33 above


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## SEAL

LegionnairE said:


> Mehmetcik1 was MKE's self project and it has cancelled, it was 5.56x45 but the new rifle will be 7.62x51 and it will also look like Mehmetcik1.
> 
> New Turkish national rifle will use HK G36's patented gas-piston syestem...



7.62x51 is good


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## LegionnairE

fox said:


> 7.62x51 is good



YEAH! someone understands me  5.56x45 and 7.62x39 rounds can never reach the power of 7.62x51 NATO or 7.62x54 Rus


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## DESERT FIGHTER

MP3A3 in service with PAK ARMY for CQB is being changed with some AK variant.......its confirmed from my sources..
Legionaire here is PK-08 ......5.62 mm

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## LegionnairE

is it MP3A3 or G3A3 ? and why is 5.62? where you trying to say 5.56 or 7.62? 

Im confused, if 5.62 is a new ammo why you changed the standard? Model is similiar to HK33 :S

A Turkish soldier armed with an HK33:


Gotta keep my eyes on forum...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

LegionnairE said:


> is it MP3A3 or G3A3 ? and why is 5.62? where you trying to say 5.56 or 7.62?
> 
> Im confused, if 5.62 is a new ammo why you changed the standard? Model is similiar to HK33 :S
> 
> A Turkish soldier armed with an HK33:
> 
> 
> Gotta keep my eyes on forum...



Its a new rifle made by POF...it uses parts from MP5A3 and G3A3....Its shorter and better lookin then hk33....Its in testing with special forces.....it may replace G3A3 used as an assualt rifle by army.......for CQB army uses MP series..


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## Jigs

You guys could go for the HK-417. Or the HK-416 from the above video. We are also going for a 7.62mm rifle in the future.


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## Kompromat

Jigs said:


> You guys could go for the HK-417. Or the HK-416 from the above video. We are also going for a *7.62mm rifle in the future*.



Turkish Army is going to get 5.56mm HK-416 and that would be done by the year 2013 right?

What makes you say that you will get back to 7.62mm , are there any plans for that ? 

BTW i would like PA to get home Production for HK-417 because we need almost half a million rifles.


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## Kompromat

hataf said:


> but really accurate



G-3 is not very accurate infact as its very hard to handle considering its bulky size.

All its good at is that its reliable and one bullet is enough to eliminate a target moreover with a little effort it can be turned into a Mini sniper rifle with a tripod and scopes.


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## ahmed_naj

> G-3 is not very accurate infact as its very hard to handle considering its bulky size.



Actually its not a problem, it only gets hard to handle when firing in full auto.



> can be turned into a Mini sniper rifle with a tripod and scopes.



add an accurised barrel aswell.


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## LegionnairE

Black Blood said:


> Turkish Army is going to get 5.56mm HK-416 and that would be done by the year 2013 right?
> 
> What makes you say that you will get back to 7.62mm , are there any plans for that ?



Go back, read my post again...


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## xMustiiej70

I think pakistani army should get mehmetcik-1.
People say its clone or copy.
but its turkish design.
Everything is almost different and better then the HK one.
Turkey is planning to replace its army from g-3 to mehmetcik-1 by 2012.
They already produced and bought by turkish army a couple thousand.
i geuss for test.
Its already suitable for special forces.
It will be deliviered to europe likely.
it will be jam free and it can attacht many modern electronica and grenade launcher.
and also they made a sniper out of it which also is a beast.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We need to get Stealth BOMARANG reusable weapon and it looks cool BOOMARANG powa 
And its silent


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## Kompromat

xMustiiej70 said:


> *I think pakistani army should get mehmetcik-1.*People say its clone or copy.
> but its turkish design.
> Everything is almost different and better then the HK one.
> Turkey is planning to replace its army from g-3 to mehmetcik-1 by 2012.
> They already produced and bought by turkish army a couple thousand.
> i geuss for test.
> Its already suitable for special forces.
> It will be deliviered to europe likely.
> it will be jam free and it can attacht many modern electronica and grenade launcher.
> and also they made a sniper out of it which also is a beast.



We would love to but the problem is that PA wants to stick to 7.62mm cartrige so we may go for HK-417 rather than HK-416 or mehmitck-1.

We can get desired numbers of those for our Special forces though.


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## LegionnairE

MEHMETCiK 1 is cancelled, new riflle will be 7.62 as i said above!!!


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## xMustiiej70

Why cancelled what is the reason for it?
I though Mehmetcik-1 was a good rifle?
and what does the new rifle change?
and when will it replace the current weapons of turkish army?


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## zulfiqar74

After reading all the posts i have come up to a conclusion that PA heavely invested in 700000 sniper rifles. Well its really time we changed our strategy. We should invest in HK417. Current rifle/ TOT that PA has. pakistan army can sell these weapons as sniper rifles.
Re invent the rifle give it a new butt, a little heavy barrel, latest grip, long range scope with option of silencers. it can be marketed as a 20 round sniper rifle. 

PA needs to upgrade its rifle... 

1) go for HK417 with granade launcher dot scope.
2) make a new rifle consisting of 6.8mm to 7.mm calibre less recoil better grip dot scope, granade launcher mix of steel and heavy fibre glass.


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## Kompromat

LegionnairE said:


> MEHMETCiK 1 is cancelled, new riflle will be 7.62 as i said above!!!



what would be the new rifle ?


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## hataf

Black Blood said:


> G-3 is not very accurate infact as its very hard to handle considering its bulky size.
> 
> All its good at is that its reliable and one bullet is enough to eliminate a target moreover with a little effort it can be turned into a Mini sniper rifle with a tripod and scopes.



have u ever fired G3 ????

i am sharing the practical experience here

i have fired G3 in NCC

its first time i ever fired a rifle

and i put 5 round in 2 inch circle and it took me about 45 second to aim and fire.And distance is more than 200 feet

but its recoil shock is a problem because after that my shoulder remain in pain for more than two weeks


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## Kompromat

hataf said:


> have u ever fired G3 ????
> 
> i am sharing the practical experience here
> 
> i have fired G3 in NCC
> 
> its first time i ever fired a rifle
> 
> and i put 5 round in 2 inch circle and it took me about 45 second to aim and fire.And distance is more than 200 feet
> 
> but its recoil shock is a problem because after that my shoulder remain in pain for more than two weeks



I have tested some known toys , including this one but personally i am not a fan of it.

Like i said before , its too long , too heavy , does not work properly in Harsh weather conditions , cant install a grenade launcher easily and its recoil is too high when in Full auto.

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## LegionnairE

Black Blood said:


> what would be the new rifle ?


It will be a completely new rifle not a simple copy of HK416

Other than that, all i know is it will use HK G36's patented gas piston technology...

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## Canaan

The G3 has a rather decent accuracy, I have both been trained on it and later the Diemaco C8 (M4).
Hits very hard
and has good reliability.
Does not suite the future battlefield where engagement will be dynamic and from even shorter distances.
You would need a rifle that puts a descent amount of fire power, which the match grade 5.56x45mm ss109 (Mk 262) does and more importantly is suited for rapid and precise engagement under extreme conditions.
(Backside of the mk262 is the decrease in hard-target/barrier penetration.)


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## ahmed_naj

> Does not suite the future battlefield where engagement will be dynamic and from even shorter distances.
> You would need a rifle that puts a descent amount of fire power, which the match grade 5.56x45mm ss109 (Mk 262) does and more importantly is suited for rapid and precise engagement under extreme conditions.
> (Backside of the mk262 is the decrease in hard-target/barrier penetration.)



well, that again depends on the type of warfare, in CQB that would be the case but 5.56 weapons lack effective range. I personally think that pak army is doing the right thing sticking with the G3 and complimenting them with the type 56s in anti-terror ops. I hope they stick with 7.62x51 for future rifles, I hope its the HK 417 however I am pretty interested in what's gonna come out from Türkiye (my Turkish friend always tell me to pronounce it like this  ) aswell, because the HK's Gas piston technology is very reliable.


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## Canaan

ahmed_naj said:


> well, that again depends on the type of warfare, in CQB that would be the case but 5.56 weapons lack effective range. I personally think that pak army is doing the right thing sticking with the G3 and complimenting them with the type 56s in anti-terror ops. I hope they stick with 7.62x51 for future rifles, I hope its the HK 417 however I am pretty interested in what's gonna come out from Türkiye (my Turkish friend always tell me to pronounce it like this  ) aswell, because the HK's Gas piston technology is very reliable.



you are right, but research shows that war is moving into cities and hence the chance of CQB engagement is growing.
Actually the US is currently having the same discussion, and some hint a intermediate caliber might be the solution, where you have the 6.8 SPC vs the 6.5 grendel. The first, has more stopping power against targets without body armor, while the last has better range, accuracy (out to a 1000 yard) and will handle targets with body armor better.

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## Hobo

Pakistan should switch to a better assault rifle. If not the M4 which is an awesome weapon then maybe one of the newer guns. and the standard machine gun in use by the army is a derivative of the MG-42 used by the Wermacht in WW2!!! They should upgrade that as well


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## Saleem

Workhorse rifle 'failing US troops in Afghanistan'The US military thinks it may have got one of the basics wrong: its guns are not good enough. A US Army study found that the M-4 rifle, the workhorse weapon of America's troops, is ineffective at ranges of more then 300m because bullets lose the velocity necessary to kill an enemy.

Although the dense vegetation and warrens of mud-packed houses in parts of southern Afghanistan lend themselves to close-range fighting, there are also many battles where Taliban fighters make use of the heavier calibre of their AK-47s to ambush Nato and Afghan soldiers from afar.......

Workhorse rifle 'failing US troops in Afghanistan' - Asia, World - The Independent


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## Irfan Baloch

peshawar said:


> 5.56 means the person you hit aint going to be down after getting hit
> its stopping power is lowers
> pakistan army is fighting a very determined enemy
> if if injured he is going to fight back till death
> which means 5.56 aint the best caliber which means 7.62 is better
> BESIDE USA AND NATO IS GOING TO SHIFT TOWARDS 6.8MM cause 5.56 AINT GOOD ENOUGH
> beside M4 has a serious jamming proble



dont under esitmate 5.5mm surely you dont have a military background
5.5 mm is a bigger killer than 7.62mm
when introduced in Vietrnam war it was the most feared weapon by the Vietkong because of its accuracy.

look at the entry and exit holes of 5.56mm I dont think any Talib or a secterian terrorist will be fighting anymore after being hit with an assault rifle round. yes 7.62 is bigger but 5.56 does the same job and is more accurate.
I would rather use a weapon where I am sure about hitting the enemy than worrying about my shoulder & missing him.

you point about 6.8M is a valid one but is for specific situations in special operations.

my point is when an aimed shot of 5.56mm will hit the target on the head & chest it wont really matter if it was smaller than the 7.62mm


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

@Irfan baloch.....sir i beg to differ in a war situation soldiers will be facing well protected soldiers who would be wearing bullet proof vests.(dont know if its a standard issue in indian army) and in case of taliban and other terrorists these might be effective.....
By my info.....Pak army is already replacing its 9MM MP5A5s with AK series used in CQB.
And there are plans to change to 5.mm in future,possiably with the PK-08 riffle under going testing with special forces of our country.
Or maybe go for 7.62mm rifle from other country but for now on G3A3s and AK series for CBQ are confirmed news.
Thanks


----------



## Saleem

The future of the standard issue infantry rifle used by American troops in Afghanistan is under review amid concerns that it is the wrong weapon for the job.

With its light bullets the M4 rifle lacks sufficient velocity and killing power in long-range firefights, leaving US troops outgunned by the Taleban and their AK47 Kalashnikovs and the old Russian SVD sniper rifle.

British Forces face the same dilemma but the Ministry of Defence said yesterday that there was no plan to review the SA80A2 rifle, which fires the same Nato 5.56mm calibre rounds as its US counterpart. We constantly review all of our capabilities, a spokesman said.

However, Britain has followed the US in investing in 400 new larger-calibre Sharpshooter rifles, which use a heavier 7.62mm round, and are effective at longer ranges. The weapon is expected to be deployed in Afghanistan, alongside the standard rifle, by the end of the month.

Americans outgunned by Taleban&rsquo;s AK47s - Times Online


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> @Irfan baloch.....sir i beg to differ in a war situation soldiers will be facing well protected soldiers who would be wearing bullet proof vests.(dont know if its a standard issue in indian army) and in case of taliban and other terrorists these might be effective.....
> By my info.....Pak army is already replacing its 9MM MP5A5s with AK series used in CQB.
> And there are plans to change to 5.mm in future,possiably with the PK-08 riffle under going testing with special forces of our country.
> Or maybe go for 7.62mm rifle from other country but for now on G3A3s and AK series for CBQ are confirmed news.
> Thanks



our G3 looses out on two main counts that I think matter the most and you mentioned them
range and Muzzle velocity (for the knockback punch to the target)

G3 range 400 M
velocity 800 m/s

M4 Range 500 M
velocity 850 to 900 M/s

all I am after is less bulky & less shoulder shattering rifle that can take out the enemy regardless of the size of the round.

I am an ok shooter (after using old 303s G3 recoil was just like a pat )& my cousin who is currently deployed in Balochistan can take out a brick at maximum possible eyesight range with a G3 but there are not many who can do that.
I mean just look at the footage of our soldiers firing, they are alomst thrown back by the recoil.

I hope something good comes out if the deceison is made

regards


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## MenOfHonor

Irfan Baloch said:


> our G3 looses out on two main counts that I think matter the most and you mentioned them
> range and Muzzle velocity (for the knockback punch to the target)
> 
> G3 range 400 M
> velocity 800 m/s
> 
> M4 Range 500 M
> velocity 850 to 900 M/s
> 
> all I am after is less bulky & less shoulder shattering rifle that can take out the enemy regardless of the size of the round.
> 
> I am an ok shooter (after using old 303s G3 recoil was just like a pat )& my cousin who is currently deployed in Balochistan can take out a brick at maximum possible eyesight range with a G3 but there are not many who can do that.
> I mean just look at the footage of our soldiers firing, they are alomst thrown back by the recoil.
> 
> I hope something good comes out if the deceison is made
> 
> regards



hope the army can change the Pak Arm forces rifles to either HK417 or a 6.8mm calibre rifle soon. fingers crossed


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## Super Falcon

i think G 36 will be good for pakistan army to replace our MP 5 and for G 3 i think their are two weapons can take over our G 3 UK or french made gun would be good specially famas


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## Super Falcon

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGwbH738s2o&feature=related[/[ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsgstaO18jY"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsgstaO18jYURL]

---------- Post added at 05:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjMH94PuT_I&feature=related


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## Super Falcon

HK 416 is the best option for G 3 and for MP 5 the best option is HK G 36

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJPPO-5cziQ&feature=related


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## smestarz

I am reading the arguements and would like to comment as follows

Firstly 5.56mm vs 7.62
5.56 is light and carry more bullets etc, that arguement is really good, but there have been instances where a person shot with 5.56 mm has walked. Which is not the same in case of 7.62 mm. You are hit and you stayed hit.
If as someone said, the battle distance is 1500 metres then 5.56 and 7.62 are ineffective and you might best go in for 12.7 or 50 cal rifles
Most battlefield ranges are 400 m (take it to 700 mts)
7.62 has an hitting power and stopping power, 5.56mm has hitting power and not stopping power. If have to be stopped then should be hit accurately. So, you do not need an auto, so whats wrong with G3

HK416 and HK 417 are latest and should be considered (if pakistan army can get proposals from this)

M4 is a good design and well developed. But why not go for something better? like say nicely developed bullpup design? There are many available. Even singapore has developed one,

So considering you want to hit targets and more bullets 5.56 is answer
If you want good stopping power 7.62mm is the answer

Steyr AUG might not be able to take a 7.62 mm. the rifle was developed around 5.56 mm cartrige and there is chance that if chambered with 7.62, it might not be balanced/

cheers


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## Dr.Evil

Pak Should go for a completely Indigenous product, Pak has suffcient technological and Industrial base.


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## Arjun MBT

Go for POF eye special-purpose weapon, its a Kick A$$ Stuff


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## mjnaushad

Arjun MBT said:


> Go for POF eye special-purpose weapon, its a Kick A$$ Stuff


So you are basically saying we should replace Glock pistol with G3. POF eye is actually a machine on which Pistols can be installed. And i hope you know the difference between pistols and rifles and their purpose.


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## Arjun MBT

mjnaushad said:


> So you are basically saying we should replace Glock pistol with G3. POF eye is actually a machine on which Pistols can be installed. And i hope you know the difference between pistols and rifles and their purpose.



Hey Just Gave my idea.... Leave it If My Idea was Bad


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## TaimiKhan

Arjun MBT said:


> Go for POF eye special-purpose weapon, its a Kick A$$ Stuff



POF Eye can not be an assault rifle, its more beneficial for anti terrorist operations in structures, even can be used in counter insurgency operations as well.

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## Icarus

POF Eye can save a lot of soldiers, I have seen a lot of men die, and have myself sustained injuries while clearing compounds, they don't know what's inside and when we do enter after throwing in a grenade we find a tunnel with some heads poking out and then all hell breaks lose, bullets fly all over the place and it's a blood bath, POF Eye can help us target Talibs without letting them know of our arrival(Which they get when we throw in a grenade), and it can give us a good idea if our grenade, after exploding, has had the desired effect, it will also help us ready ourselves with respect to the enemy's strength.

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## Arjun MBT

TaimiKhan said:


> POF Eye can not be an assault rifle, its more beneficial for anti terrorist operations in structures, even can be used in counter insurgency operations as well.



Iam sorry, Mod, But My Only analysis was, if it was made a standard Weapon, Then the Efficiency And Battle effectiveness Would Increase and the Number of casualties would decrease, it Can might not be an Assault rifle, But it sure can Suit the Role of Pakistan army... Whats the range of POF Eye???


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## Icarus

I have been caught in some extremely sticky situations and have had a variety of arms at my side, but given the choice, I would choose G-3 over any other rifle in a war zone, it is accurate for up to a kilometre, has unmatched penetration power, mount a scope on it and you have yourself a decent sniper rifle.

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## Icarus

Arjun MBT said:


> Iam sorry, Mod, But My Only analysis was, if it was made a standard Weapon, Then the Efficiency And Battle effectiveness Would Increase and the Number of casualties would decrease, it Can might not be an Assault rifle, But it sure can Suit the Role of Pakistan army... Whats the range of POF Eye???



It's not a gun, it's a mounting platform, it's range is that of the gun mounted on it, which in most cases is a 9mm with an effective range of about 30 metres at best.


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## Icarus

Notice it has a 9mm pistol with a silencer mounted on it:







This one has a simple 9mm pistol mounted on it:


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## TaimiKhan

Arjun MBT said:


> Iam sorry, Mod, But My Only analysis was, if it was made a standard Weapon, Then the Efficiency And Battle effectiveness Would Increase and the Number of casualties would decrease, it Can might not be an Assault rifle, But it sure can Suit the Role of Pakistan army... Whats the range of POF Eye???



I believe Kakgeta has answered the question beautifully. 

To add, yes you are 100&#37; right this system should be given to the the troops in numbers, especially the ones fighting the counter insurgency operations as majority of the operations are compound clearing and stuff like that and it will be very beneficial to them and as Kakgeta said, lot of lives can be saved.

But this won't serve much in the conventional warfare, as its range is limited.

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## rohailmalhi

Kakgeta said:


> POF Eye can save a lot of soldiers, I have seen a lot of men die, and have myself sustained injuries while clearing compounds, they don't know what's inside and when we do enter after throwing in a grenade we find a tunnel with some heads poking out and then all hell breaks lose, bullets fly all over the place and it's a blood bath, POF Eye can help us target Talibs without letting them know of our arrival(Which they get when we throw in a grenade), and it can give us a good idea if our grenade, after exploding, has had the desired effect, it will also help us ready ourselves with respect to the enemy's strength.



Sorry for being off topic but 

Sir i need to know y can't PA can use sum *robotic vehicles* for search and clear operations. coz they can get this thing very very easily from the market and its not even expensive.
Like send the vehicle u can have idea abt thing inside the compound and thn u can plan accordingly ,like the soldiers have idea tht there are so many trenches or tunnels in the compound . 
i think this thing can save many precious life .


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## Icarus

rohailmalhi said:


> Sorry for being off topic but
> 
> Sir i need to know y can't PA can use sum *robotic vehicles* for search and clear operations. coz they can get this thing very very easily from the market and its not even expensive.
> Like send the vehicle u can have idea abt thing inside the compound and thn u can plan accordingly ,like the soldiers have idea tht there are so many trenches or tunnels in the compound .
> i think this thing can save many precious life .



We have to jump over walls, go deep inside Talib tunnel networks, scale watch towers, stuff that a RC bot simply cannot do, especially in rocky, rough, mountainous terrain. Another factor are the Talibs themselves, they shoot indiscriminately, they would screw the RC bot before it can even get close to their position, and give us an idea of their strength.


----------



## rohailmalhi

Kakgeta said:


> We have to jump over walls, go deep inside Talib tunnel networks, scale watch towers, stuff that a RC bot simply cannot do, especially in rocky, rough, mountainous terrain. Another factor are the Talibs themselves, they shoot indiscriminately, they would screw the RC bot before it can even get close to their position, and give us an idea of their strength.



Yes i was just asking if we could use them ,as u have better idea about the battle field .
Wht about using smaller bots just to get a glimpse of the inner side of the compound even if they kill the bot it would have provided the soldiers with the information abt whts going on , inside the compound and it will be far easy to plan the search and clear operation.
sumthing like this.


----------



## Safron Slayer

What about changing standard G3 into bullpup design. It will only need a conversion kit and little modification. The barrel lenght will remain same but the size and weight will be decreased.
Iran has already done it , see the link below:
DIA G3 Bullpup - Military Photos Images Pictures Discussion

bullpup G3 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

YouTube - SKS Rifle Bullpup Stock Kit Conversion

So as other countries like British with their SA 80 Bull pup rifle.

Your seggestions please...


----------



## rockstarIN

Are PA looking to change from 7.62x51mm NATO to 5.56x45mm NATO?

There comes the decision of new rifle..!!


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## Safron Slayer

Norinco Type 86S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Safron Slayer

according to my sources, PA wants to stick with 7.62 as their standard caliber. Not sure whether its 7.62*51mm or 7.62*39mm.


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## Safron Slayer

WHY BULLPUPS

Kel-Tec 7.62x51mm RFB Bullpup Carbine


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## rockstarIN

Safron Slayer said:


> WHY BULLPUPS
> 
> Kel-Tec 7.62x51mm RFB Bullpup Carbine



BUllpops may not fit to the army doctrines. You need a long rifle for bionet charge+ close combat battles (correct me if I'm wrong)


----------



## rockstarIN

Safron Slayer said:


> according to my sources, PA wants to stick with 7.62 as their standard caliber. Not sure whether its 7.62*51mm or 7.62*39mm.




7.62, though a good one with long range, its heavy. By shifting to 5.56, the soldier can carry double the number of cartridges. 

Again it depend upon doctrine, 5.56 mm mostly wants to injure the soldier with long shot so that more two enemy combatant will engage to evacuate. 

IA choose to the same for INSAS and like M-16 new version, has no automatic fire.


----------



## Super Falcon

YouTube - Future Weapons: The Ultimate Assualt Rifle


----------



## Super Falcon

YouTube - 50 Beowulf - Future Weapons

i will go for three of these babies


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## Super Falcon

YouTube - FutureWeapons


----------



## Ratus Ratus

First a few corrections to some peoples posts here:

In Vietnam it was the M16 series using the 5.56 NATO round.
The current US weapon the M4 is a development of the M16 but in essence degraded. The M16 when it first came out was a pain to keep operating. Cleaning was a high point of its dislike by users, no clean no work.

The 5.56 rnd is all nice but it does not have the range of the 7.62. never will. Current stopping power is just not there. The current intent of using this round was to reduce the weight of carrying ammunition by a soldier. Thus less weight carry more rounds. Nothing else. OK M16's had nice stopping power. That is lost in the M4 series. range still sucks.


Too many seem to see a rifle be it assault or plain mil rifle and say 'Oh that looks cool'. Wrong way to choose a weapon. 

If it is to be a generic weapon you need to look at:
the effective range in all battle fields.
stopping power at that effective range.
weapon weight
etc
Also where is it being produced, local or OS 
is there a local license or not, eg G3 style of license.
Is there local maintenance parts or do they have to come from OS.
Ammunition local or not.
and the list goes on..

Also one small thing does the ammunition match up with your local close support MGs?

Well 7 pages to cover all the same that has been hacked out before.. 

If you don't go 7.62 you possibly will go along the lines of one of the 6mm variants.

*hataf:
i put 5 round in 2 inch circle and it took me about 45 second to aim and fire.And distance is more than 200 feet*

Ok all good now try that with a .303 bolt action rapid fire and at 200yds, (600 ft) then we will talk.
I could still do that with the 7.62 SLR when that came along as well.

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## farhan_9909

Mark Sien said:


> M4s are already in use by Pakistani SSG.
> 
> The Turks also unveiled their Mehmetcik-1 rifle...which MKE is reportedly claiming to be their own developed product and not a licensed copy...though it looks a lot like HK416.
> 
> Pakistan's POF also has its PK-08.



are you sure the PK-08 is 100% indegenous


----------



## Donatello

rockstar said:


> Are PA looking to change from 7.62x51mm NATO to 5.56x45mm NATO?
> 
> There comes the decision of new rifle..!!





Well, sometime back it was NATO agreement that their partners phase out the old, more lethal 7.62mm bullets........hence Pakistan must change the bullet also....

Concept being that 5.56mm is enough to put a soldier out of service but not kill him...7.62 is too deadly.


----------



## Ratus Ratus

penumbra said:


> Well, sometime back it was NATO agreement that their partners phase out the old, more lethal 7.62mm bullets........hence Pakistan must change the bullet also....
> 
> Concept being that 5.56mm is enough to put a soldier out of service but not kill him...7.62 is too deadly.



Well many countries still use the 7.62 for their section pl MGs
And the 5.56 aint got the hitting power that was expected. The rnd won't even go through a building wall.
Do some background reading re the US and the M4 and how it is loved so much. 

Also as pointed out there is a group looking at the various 6mm options vs the 5.56. I doubt Pakistan wants to go 5.56 when everyone else goes the 6mm options or back to 7.62

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## ahmed_naj

> BUllpops may not fit to the army doctrines. You need a long rifle for bionet charge+ close combat battles (correct me if I'm wrong)



bullpup is basicly a type of configuration... they provide the same amount of barrel length for a weapon that is shorter in size so yes they are fit for the army. in fact both France and UK issue bullpup weapons -- L85 and FAMAS


----------



## rockstarIN

^^ I said it may not fit for PA doctrine..


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

farhan_9909 said:


> are you sure the PK-08 is 100&#37; indegenous



Yes it is! 

Its kind of a hybrid between a MP-5A3 and G3A3!short,light and looks great!
But uses 5.62mm.


----------



## graphican

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Yes it is!
> 
> Its kind of a hybrid between a MP-5A3 and G3A3!short,light and looks great!
> But uses 5.62mm.



Its good to know about this gun. I used to wonder why Pakistan is not interested in procuring guns when I heard India acquiring Tavor but i'm glad we probebly not needed anything as we are going good on that arleady.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

We are already producing an upgraded varient of the AK-47..... which is replacing the MP-5A3 in CQB role..... but in future..... they replace the G3A3 with PK-08!
Who knows!


NOTE=PA loves 7.62...


----------



## Safron Slayer

Me too... 7.62 is a killer...more knock down power...more leathal....and if its about accuracy.... To accuracy bullet me nahi chalane wale me hoti hai...


----------



## Silk

I think in Pakistani war situation you better have the 7.62. You need raw power to eliminate opposition. Even western armies complain about that they need to shoot more then once to eliminate target. It is less weight and handy but you need more to do the same. And the range is less. I would go for the conversion of the H&K made by POF.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

AK 47 any day.


----------



## rohailmalhi

The deadliest AK47 .

Does anybosy have any idea that is PK08 is just going to be 5 mm standard or could it be 7 mm standard.


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## sharonsun

that is really awesome
thanks a lot


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## Super Falcon

i think pakistan must mix it up with 7.62 to 5.62 use them both and bring G 36 in place of G 3 and MP 7 in place of MP 5 G 36 also can be used by naval special groups because it can be fired even it is filled with water


----------



## nightcrawler

Hey, I need some clarifications.





Velocity comparison between the 7.62x51mm NATO, .30-06 Springfield, and .300 Winchester Magnum for common bullet weights.

Provided that the bullet weight is *same* (from 140-18g) how the muzzle velocity is so *varying*??
Besides 7.62x51mm NATO(Overall length 69.85 mm) the other two even share the same overall length (85 mm)

7.62x51mm NATO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.300 Winchester Magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.30-06 Springfield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Thomas

Blackpearl said:


> Pakistan Army is using POF delivered G-3 rifles. The weapon is actually from a rifle category, best suited for aimed shots. It has a longer range. but who needs long range now, and fire aimed shots. Also rifle is poor in kicking back on Shoulder. All over the world, Armies hav shifted to lower calibre: 5.56 mm. The advantages of 5.56 mm calibre over 7.62 mm (as in G-3) are:
> 
> 1. Lower calibre means, lighter barrel: so lesser weight of the weapon.
> 2. Reduction in calibre means ammunition weight is reduced per round, so more bullets, may be carried. Thats why, mags for 5.56 calibres are 30 rounds mag instead of 20 rounds.
> 
> 3. Lesser propellent in cartridge case, means low weapon recoil: thus better handling qualities.
> 
> 4. Better handling qualities means, weapon is good in CQB (close quarter battles).
> 
> 5. Pakistan Army is mostly fighting war in hilly region, where engagement ranges do not exceed 1500 meters. Thus '5.56' is ideally suited.
> 
> 6. As weapon and its ammo is light weight, so soldier may carry weapons for longer duration, distances, causing less fatigue.
> 
> So i think, Pakistan should switch to 5.56 mm calibre.
> My vote is for Colt M4 Carbine ( USA).



In Mountainous country the 7.62mm is a better choice I think. The 5.56mm simply lacks the range. That is why you are seeing U.S. Special Forces in Afghanistan switching to the FN SCAR. 







the above is actually the 5.56mm versions, below are the 7.62mm.

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## fatman17

5.56 calibers have 'failed' in the afghan theatre - i'm not aware abt feedback from the iraq theatre.


----------



## milvipes

SCAR is simply too expensive. HK417 costs only 2/3 as much.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Most of the G 3's that I have seen have a wooden stock----are there synthetic stock available for this rifle---. Would it be a way to reduce weight. Have any of you heard about the synthetic stock or have seen it replacing the wooden stock

The 5.56 is no match for the taliban fighters under the influence of opium---.


----------



## Thomas

milvipes said:


> SCAR is simply too expensive. HK417 costs only 2/3 as much.



HK-417 is a good weapon. *I show it around 3800 dollars though. where did you see it at 2/3 of the cost of the SCAR?







Designer Heckler & Koch 
Manufacturer Heckler & Koch 
Variants Assaulter (12" barrel - standard)
Recce (16" barrel - standard and accurized)
Sniper (20" barrel - accurized) 
Specifications 
Weight 3.87 kg [8.5 lbs] (12 inch barrel),
4.05 kg [8.9 lbs] (16 inch barrel),
4.23kg [9.3lbs] (20 inch barrel) 
Length 805 / 885 mm (12" barrel, stock collapsed/extended),
905 / 985 mm (16" barrel, stock collapsed/extended),
1005 / 1085 mm (20" barrel, stock collapsed/extended) 
Barrel length 305 mm (12 in) standard
406 mm (16 in) standard
406 mm (16 in) accurized
508 mm (20 in) accurized 

Cartridge 7.62x51mm NATO 
Action Gas-operated, rotating bolt 
Rate of fire 600 rounds/min 
Muzzle velocity 709 m/s (12 in)
750 m/s (16 in)
789 m/s (20 in) 
Feed system 10 or 20 round detachable box magazine 
Optional 50 round drum magazine

Sights accessory diopter/rotary or optics 







MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most of the G 3's that I have seen have a wooden stock----*are there synthetic stock available for this rifle*---. Would it be a way to reduce weight. Have any of you heard about the synthetic stock or have seen it replacing the wooden stock
> 
> The 5.56 is no match for the taliban fighters under the influence of opium---.




Yes! however it is still a fairly heavy weapon. 








FN FAL is also another good weapon, though heavy as well.







The SCAR H Standard is only 3.5kg

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## TaimiKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most of the G 3's that I have seen have a wooden stock----are there synthetic stock available for this rifle---. Would it be a way to reduce weight. Have any of you heard about the synthetic stock or have seen it replacing the wooden stock
> 
> The 5.56 is no match for the taliban fighters under the influence of opium---.



Sir, PA is using in very good numbers the G3A4 version having synthetic plastic being used in place of the old fashion wood. 

POF makes the G3A4 & G3A3 version. 

http://www.pof.gov.pk/IW_autorifles.aspx

My choice is the HK-417, 7.62mm. As said previously in the same thread by me, we will have to incur cost of just changing the rifle, ammunition would remain the same, millions of G-3s ammo magazines can be used with HK-417 too, thus no wastage of the millions of mags, cost saving on the ammo as nothing would be changed, the only cost incurred would be getting the license & machines for making the HK-417s, since it comes in different barrel lengths, thus we can make CQB rifles version to assault rifle version as well as sniper version too. The bullet has the stopping power and costs would be at the lowest and we will have yet another effective weapon in our hands for coming decades. 

Even further costs could be lowered, if we get the license production from the Turkish as their Mershmit-1 design is same as the HK-416/417 series, thus they may not charge as much as the Germans would. 

Plus, we need grenade launchers to be with the new rifle as standard fit and some other accessories as well as a standard SAW as MG3 is too heavy, M249 is the best example or the MG4 design.

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## Mani2020

I still remember that documentary part in which the army personnel using G-3 was not happy with its performance and the main issues according to him were 

It is very heavy 
It gets stuck/jammed so often ,after firing few rounds


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## Gazzi

It all depends on how much one intends to spend...........

5.56 rounds are good in that it can change a battlefield status quo as in the LOC between India and Pakistan whereby the philosophy of killing a soldier is not necessary but wounding him only to die later will cause one injury but two soldiers to get him medical aid and help taking three people off the front line.......this is a must flor Pakistan's Army when faced with a big army, however as a turn, PA can also then use the military strategy of Kargil using much heavy calibre weaponry to keep enemy afar.........

This is where the 7.62 round comes to effect. It keeps the effectective enemy range at about 700 metres and harrassing fire range at about 900 metres with most rifles....... This keeps the enemy a good distance away allowing your snipers using 50 cal rounds to hit the command and communications disrupting enemy co-ordination......however, 7.62 rounds cost more and when you take into account that a rifle can fire upto 700 rounds a minute, a 30 round magazine will be gone in 3-4 seconds, especially when in sectional defence like the LOC......

Pakistan will however require to change its entire thinking about how and what to deploy. there are two scenarios, LOC (india) and terrorists in KP.......

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## Gazzi

Mani2020 said:


> I still remember that documentary part in which the army personnel using G-3 was not happy with its performance and the main issues according to him were
> 
> It is very heavy
> It gets stuck/jammed so often ,after firing few rounds



That jamming problem is on board all main weapns..........the British SA80, despite being revolutionised by H&K to prevent jamming change alot of the internal parts, the damn thing still jams often, especially the LSW design.......I recall having upto 17 jams when I fired close to 300 rounds from it.........despite the weapon being well cleaned and maintained..........However when you read the weapon description by teh manufacturer, its a very advanced weapon which hardly ever jams..........B0llucks, I wouldn't read too much into the descriptions given but ask the people who use them.

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## Mani2020

Gazzi said:


> That jamming problem is on board all main weapns..........the British SA80, despite being revolutionised by H&K to prevent jamming change alot of the internal parts, the damn thing still jams often, especially the LSW design.......I recall having upto 17 jams when I fired close to 300 rounds from it.........despite the weapon being well cleaned and maintained..........However when you read the weapon description by teh manufacturer, its a very advanced weapon which hardly ever jams..........B0llucks, I wouldn't read too much into the descriptions given but ask the people who use them.



Thats where the AK series was revolutionary specially the Ak-47 which set the trend and is the most produced one .i think Pakistan should look for new variants of Ak series from Russia ,there is a high probability that we would get refused but another option would be China .Through China we can buy them and then China either can produce there own variant based upon that or licence production in China will result us acquiring those in some numbers


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## imiakhtar

Gazzi said:


> That jamming problem is on board all main weapns..........the British SA80, despite being revolutionised by H&K to prevent jamming change alot of the internal parts, the damn thing still jams often, especially the LSW design.......I recall having upto 17 jams when I fired close to 300 rounds from it.........despite the weapon being well cleaned and maintained..........However when you read the weapon description by teh manufacturer, its a very advanced weapon which hardly ever jams..........B0llucks, I wouldn't read too much into the descriptions given but ask the people who use them.



Utter hogwash. I've put 1000s of rounds through the SA80 and can count on one hand the occasions on which it has jammed. Of those jams, 4 were magazine related. In it's current form, a very reliable system, albeit a slightly heavy one compared to it's contemporaries.

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## ahmed_naj

interesting conflicting views  ... generally the view ive got about the L85A2 is very positive. I personally have no experience with the platform.


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## Thomas

if you don't mind it being Israeli made the 7.62mm Galil is a great alternative, It uses a Kalishnikov action.








Or there is the Galil Ace Model 32


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## Mani2020

Thomas said:


> if you don't mind it being Israeli made the 7.62mm Galil is a great alternative, It uses a Kalishnikov action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or there is the Galil Ace Model 32



the problem not only is that whether we mind or not but also whether they allow us the sales or not .i don't see any transactions b/w two countries atleast for a century


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## Thomas

Mani2020 said:


> the problem not only is that whether we mind or not but also whether they allow us the sales or not .i don't see any transactions b/w two countries atleast for a century



In the past Israel has given liscense to other countries to manufacture their rifles. Italy and South Africa being just a few. Then you wouldn't be buying them from Israel per say. And based on past sales Isreali military industries is more interested in money then who.

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## Mani2020

Thomas said:


> In the past Israel has given liscense to other countries to manufacture their rifles. Italy and South Africa being just a few. Then you wouldn't be buying them from Israel per say. And based on past sales Isreali military industries is more interested in money then who.



But Pakistan is a different case then Italy and South Africa and you know why .

Secondly you must be well aware of India-Israel defence ties.even if Israel agrees to provide these machines to Pakistan i don't think it will serve india's purpose and Israel as you mentioned striving just for money will never want to loose the customer like indian with whom she is having multiple deals of billions worth .

Also Pakistan will never be interested in purchasing anything from Israel. i remember when Elta offered their radar for Fc-1 and it was rejected directly without even evaluation


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## rockstarIN

Mani2020 said:


> But Pakistan is a different case then Italy and South Africa and you know why .
> 
> Secondly you must be well aware of India-Israel defence ties.even if Israel agrees to provide these machines to Pakistan i don't think it will serve india's purpose and Israel as you mentioned striving just for money will never want to loose the customer like indian with whom she is having multiple deals of billions worth .
> 
> Also Pakistan will never be interested in purchasing anything from Israel. *i remember when Elta offered their radar for Fc-1 and it was rejected directly without even evaluation*



Really? they offered to China?


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## Mani2020

rockstar said:


> Really? they offered to China?



Yup , i think it was a kind of indirect sales through China.i don't remember the exact type as this news is years old and there was a lot of discussion on that , i remember an indian member argued about the news but then he was provided with many articles from various sources .

you should try to google it and may be you would come up with those articles

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## Gazzi

imiakhtar said:


> Utter hogwash. I've put 1000s of rounds through the SA80 and can count on one hand the occasions on which it has jammed. Of those jams, 4 were magazine related. In it's current form, a very reliable system, albeit a slightly heavy one compared to it's contemporaries.



Putting 1000s of rounds through the weapon on deifferent days oir on the range isn't where the weapon is tested. 

I have put hundreds of rounds down sectional defence where the working parts gave out smoke and weapon becane more and more prone to jammings. This was in 2002 when being trained for mobilisation for Iraq.

I know how the weapon worked and every single person in my batallion was of the same view, it is not a weapon that lives up to its mechanical expectations.

On the other hand, it is very accurate for a 5.56 round with the SA80 being pretty good upto 600 metres and the LSW at more then 800 metres.


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## milvipes

Civilian market prices do not necessarily reflect cost of manufacture. Check out some of the sources that cater specifically to government agencies. HK416 is considrably cheaper than SCAR-L, so the same should be true for HK417 WRT SCAR-H.


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## monitor




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## monitor

Information about the development of a dual-caliber air-burst weapon by South Korea was available since about 2006 and K11 was first revealed to public in 2009, in DSEI military expo . This is developed by the Agency for Defense Development and S&T Daewoo.K11 is similar to the ill-fated American XM-29 OICW (Objective Individual Combat Weapon. Weapon is believed to be in service with South Korean army.Last year, it was reported that some of the South Korean troops deploying to Afghanistan will be armed with the Daewoo K11 dual-caliber airburst weapon.K11 dual-caliber air-burst weapon is proposed for infantry squad support role, multiplying soldiers capabilities to engage enemy personnel in defilade and soft-skinned vehicles and equipment, using 20mm air-burst grenades with pre-programmed fuse and 5.56mm ammunition for short- to medium range direct fire. K11s 20mm grenade launcher weapon carries a 5-round magazine. K11s 20mm round can track its target and explode three to four meters above it by using a self-detonation system.

_K11 dual-caliber air-burst weapon consists of three major units, linked into one weapon. 
_

*20mm multi-shot grenade launcher which is a manually operated and is fed from detachable box magazines. It is built in bullpup layout. K167 HE air-burst grenade and K168 TP target practice grenade can be fired from the grenade launcher.
*
*5.56mm automatic rifle component is similar to US-made M16 or Korean-made K2 rifles which allows it to use NATO-standard 5.56mm ammunition.
*
Eelectronic fire control unit includes laser rangefinder, environmental sensors, ballistic computer, and day (optical) and night (IR) sighting channels.

Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO + 20 mm
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt for 5.56mm and manually operated for 20mm
Overall length: 860 mm 
Barrel length: 310 mm (5.56mm); 405 mm (20mm)
Weight: 6.1 kg (with optics and battery but less magazines)
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds of 5.56mm and 5 rounds of 20mm


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## Water Car Engineer

monitor said:


>


 
^^^^^^
Really? Bro?

Why not AUG or SAR 21?


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## monitor




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## Water Car Engineer

Or maybe Chinese QBZ-03 or QBZ-95?













monitor said:


>


 
I dont think Pakistan can afford that.....


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## monitor

I dont think Pakistan can afford that.....[/QUOTE]

yes very expensive but for special force they may consider .


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## monitor




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## tanlixiang28776

New OICW for export


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## Water Car Engineer

tanlixiang28776 said:


> New OICW for export


 
Do you think these would be better?











Less cost.


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## tanlixiang28776

Shouldn't be too expensive. Probably around 3000 each so it is cheaper than the tavors India bought at 5000.

type 95 and type 03 should be around 500 I think.


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## Water Car Engineer

> Shouldn't be too expensive. Probably around 3000 each so it is cheaper than the tavors India bought at 5000.
> 
> *type 95 and type 03 should be around 500 I think.*



Wow, thats really cheap.



> Probably around 3000



I think Pakistan's army is almost a million though..

Tavors are only for the Special forces of India.


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## tanlixiang28776

Liquid said:


> Wow, thats really cheap.


 
I'm only basing that figure on the fact that they were around 800 for type 97 imported to Canada.


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## tanlixiang28776

Liquid said:


> I think Pakistan's army is almost a million though..
> 
> Tavors are only for the Special forces of India.



Well no one is going to equip every soldier with a OICW. Even America can't. One or two per squad would drastically increase firepower however.


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## Water Car Engineer

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Well no one is going to equip every soldier with a OICW. Even America can't. One or two per squad would drastically increase firepower however.


 
Ya, but this was about if G3 would be replaced in its army, what would be the best option.


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## tanlixiang28776

Liquid said:


> Ya, but this was about if G3 would be replaced in its army, what would be the best option.


 
type 03 in 5.56. Don't think Pakistan would like a bull-pup rifle for entire army.


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## BelligerentPacifist

Why do you guys think it an intelligent idea to suggest bullpup G-3 replacements?


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## tanlixiang28776

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Why do you guys think it an intelligent idea to suggest bullpup G-3 replacements?


 
Whats wrong with bull-pups?


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

G 3 rocks... Its a tiny cannon in your hand and you can be certain that it brings the enemy down...

I smell a rat in all this talk about changing our main army rifle!!!


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## tanlixiang28776

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim said:


> G 3 rocks... Its a tiny cannon in your hand and you can be certain that it brings the enemy down...
> 
> I smell a rat in all this talk about changing our main army rifle!!!


 
Okay Mr. Paranoid. You can keep your gun.

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## BelligerentPacifist

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Whats wrong with bull-pups?


Different philosophies. You don't fight entrenched battles crouching down or standing erect. Specops is mostly where bullpups fit with the PA.


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## tanlixiang28776

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Different philosophies. You don't fight entrenched battles crouching down or standing erect. Specops is mostly where bullpups fit with the PA.


 
thats why I suggested type 03 for army and OICW for spec ops


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

M16 plateform is the best !
AR/M16 is truly modular, can be setup for any rifle caliber. I prefer 6.8 SPC
We should really look into it. Would be a lot cheaper & very easy to build.( minus the optics & folding sights etc)
The top/lower receivers are aluminum. 
No need for fancy/showy rifles. Just make sure to bump up the ammo components to get the best terminal velocity, long range accurcay and proper yaw and superior fragmentation.


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## SEAL

New modified variant of G3 made by POF on display in IDEX 2011 UAE.

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## Secret Service

I use G3 many times .....it has few disadvantages....
1. large caliber 7.6mm...it should be 5.5..
2. range of 300m...it should be 400m..
3. large recoil
4. out of control when fully automatic..


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## Time Assassin

AK105 thats the weapon of tommorrow 
It's way much better than the G3, it's more up to date and it don't cost alot.


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## demosthenes

Hello all. I have been looking for information on the 3GS on the internet but haven't found much. I have found the same picture posted by 'fox' in a number of different places, and wanted to pool everyone's opinion on the matter. . .

Look closely. Its difficult to make out, but if you zoom in on the image, it seems as though the cocking handle has been moved from the left barrel side of the gun to the right side just behind the chamber. Actually, it appears as though they've milled a slat behind the ejection chamber to allow for movement of the cocking handle with the bolt. If this is indeed true, it would represent a significant modification to the original G3.

What does everyone else think?


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## alimobin memon

fox said:


> New modified variant of G3 made by POF on display in IDEX 2011 UAE.


 
awesome!!!!


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## Kompromat

Looks like we have found ourselves a solution - say hello to *POF- G3s*

Displayed in IDEX 2011 Dubai.

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## Irfan Baloch

I cant find this gun in the official POF website under infantry weapons. maybe website needs updating
they could have added a page for the exhibitions but either its not there or the link not very well placed on the webpage


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## SHkhan

SO in the end i fink G3 nd Ak-47 are the best rifles.....


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## IrbiS

G3 is atrue battle rifle.Its power is very good and supports our terrians too even it is being used at SIACHEN.It is best for froozy and muddy conditions.PA 'll not replace it for some more years


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## Icarus

Switching from the G3 is not a good idea. Even the Americans are thinking of moving to 6.68mm Caliber because the 5.56mm lacks the range, if you have a guy you want to hit some 600m+ away then your 5.56mm will lack penetration as well. The G-3 is time tested and a troop favorite. Just slap on a telescope and you have yourself a sniper rifle with about 1.2km range. Switching to 5.56mm when the rest of the world is thinking of switching back will be a stupid move. We held this discussion in the 80s and reached the conclusion that it isn't a good idea.

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## Rocky rock

POF made G-3 rifle n if we'll use M4 carbine we'll have to buy these from U.S.A 4 which we'll have to spend money on rifle's now soo i think when pof will start makin the M-4 carbine or M-16 type gun's then we should have to use them!! My opinion..


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## DARKY

Aeronaut said:


> Looks like we have found ourselves a solution - say hello to *POF- G3s*
> 
> Displayed in IDEX 2011 Dubai.



Don't see this getting operational clearance too small a barrel for a 7.62x51mm round even how well that stock would absorb the shock of the bigger rounder can be guessed by any one.....Next generation of assault rifles would have multiple rounds for both long range and short range engagement.........i.e. both 7.62/6.8mm and 5.56/5.45mm rounds.

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## Icarus

DARKY said:


> Don't see this getting operational clearance too small a barrel for a 7.62x51mm round even how well that stock would absorb the shock of the bigger rounder can be guessed by any one.....Next generation of assault rifles would have multiple rounds for both long range and short range engagement.........i.e. both 7.62/6.8mm and 5.56/5.45mm rounds.


 
These are already in use with Airport Security I believe.


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## DARKY

Kakgeta said:


> These are already in use with *Airport Security* I believe.


 
7.62mm rounds for airport security that too with that small barrel.........They could have had MP-5, AK-74U or other similar rifles....better suited for such places.


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## DARKY

Self Delete

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## DARKY

@Kakgeta;
Have you got any video of this rife firing in automatic mode??


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## Icarus

DARKY said:


> 7.62mm rounds for airport security that too with that small barrel.........They could have had MP-5, AK-74U or other similar rifles....better suited for such places.


 
They do use MP-5 within the airport. Guys on the Tarmac and runway have these. As well as the Elites.

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## Icarus

DARKY said:


> @Kakgeta;
> Have you got any video of this rife firing in automatic mode??


 
No, I'm sorry.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

DARKY said:


> 7.62mm rounds for airport security that too with that small barrel.........They could have had MP-5, AK-74U or other similar rifles....better suited for such places.


 
They als have Aug,MP-5A3,PK-08,M-4s,G3A3 and G3S.


Also it would be nice if we changed G-3A3s coz in swat they werent the best coz of their overall lenght nor in siachin coz it jams on high attitudes............... and they r not accurate on automatic firing mode......PK-08 is prefered...

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## rockstarIN

Kakgeta said:


> Switching from the G3 is not a good idea. Even the Americans are thinking of moving to 6.68mm Caliber because the 5.56mm lacks the range, if you have a guy you want to hit some 600m+ away then your 5.56mm will lack penetration as well. The G-3 is time tested and a troop favorite. Just slap on a telescope and you have yourself a sniper rifle with about 1.2km range. Switching to 5.56mm when the rest of the world is thinking of switching back will be a stupid move. We held this discussion in the 80s and reached the conclusion that it isn't a good idea.


 
90% of the battle takes place within 200-400m range. Thats why most of the army opted for 5.56mm, it is less weight, so can carry more bullet in the battlefield. However, rifles with multipile bullet firing capacity is the reply for the modern battlefield requirements.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

rockstar said:


> 90% of the battle takes place within 200-400m range. Thats why most of the army opted for 5.56mm, it is less weight, so can carry more bullet in the battlefield. However, rifles with multipile bullet firing capacity is the reply for the modern battlefield requirements.


 
No sir it doesnt... do u know why m-4 has failed in A-stan? coz of its range and not being effective against militants........5.56mm is used by NATO coz of their doctorine "to injure militants instead of killing them n when the others arrive to help catchin them..."

Its also useless against a modern soldier wearing a kevlar vest.............. And is not prefered by Pak army.

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## Last Hope

Two things over here.

According to inside sources, G3 is being changed. I wont name the new rifle, but its gonna be a pleasant surprise.
Second, G3 is loved by our troops for its power and accuracy in the shooting.

Regards.

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## Icarus

rockstar said:


> 90% of the battle takes place within 200-400m range. Thats why most of the army opted for 5.56mm, it is less weight, so can carry more bullet in the battlefield. However, rifles with multipile bullet firing capacity is the reply for the modern battlefield requirements.


 
They told me that and I believed it too, that was before I was cornered by a Talib sniper with a .303 in Bajaur and my AMD-65 wouldn't even scare him. I had to spend 30 minutes in a ditch, risking capture to wait for some one to shoot back at the bastard. Finally, one of our guys with a G-3 shot at him and, the shot hit a rock near him, scaring him enough to flee. The ISAF here in Afghanistan have also been faced with a similar problem.

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## Icarus

Last Hope said:


> Two things over here.
> 
> According to inside sources, G3 is being changed. I wont name the new rifle, but its gonna be a pleasant surprise.
> Second, G3 is loved by our troops for its power and accuracy in the shooting.
> 
> Regards.



Wouldn't be the first time this prospect is being discussed. I would like to know which one they are considering this time.............


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## DARKY

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> No sir it doesnt... do u know why m-4 has failed in A-stan? coz of its range and not being effective against militants........5.56mm is used by NATO coz of their doctorine using them to injure militants instead of killing them n when the others arrive them catchin them...
> 
> Its also useless against a modern soldier wearing a kevlar vest.............. And is not prefered by Pak army.


 
Not preferred by Pak Army is a different thing(changing the standard rounds is very complex and expensive process which even US army can't afford every time).
As far as I know 5.56 rounds are better penetrators than 7.62 as it has got more spin and muzzle velocity.....the problem lies in the cover penetration capability and ricochet.....of 5.56 rounds at longer ranges.

Here's a very good article go through;

There are a lot of myths and misconceptions surrounding the current M16A1, M16A2, M4, M16A4NATO 5.56 round and its effectiveness on the battlefield. Now before you make a judgment as a soldier or as a firearm enthusiast (a more euphemistic way of saying &#8220;gun nut&#8221, consider your sources. Who is it that is telling you the 5.56mm, or .223 if you prefer, is an ineffective round? Is this source an armchair general who has watched Blackhawk Down one too many times; or a Navy Corpsman who has been attached to a MEF fighting in Fallujah and has seen, treated and inflicted these wounds with his own M-4? People look at the .30-06 round from their grandfather&#8217;s M1 Garand and the 7.62×51mm round from their dad&#8217;s M-14 and compare it to the M-16/M-4&#8217;s 5.56 and think; &#8220;Wow, this is considerably smaller. Therefore, it must be less effective.&#8221;

Now Joe Nichols had it right when he said, &#8220;Size Matters.&#8221; However, when you are talking about combat cartridges this is not always the case, and I say that hesitantly. When the 5.56 was derived from Remington&#8217;s .223 in the late 1950&#8217;s, it was meant as a &#8220;force multiplier&#8221; if you will. By that I mean a soldier could literally carry twice as much ammunition as one who has the older 7.62 for the same weight. *They wanted a soldier who could stay longer in the field without re-supply and could literally out-last and out-shoot the enemy in many aspects. The 5.56 is an incredibly fast and flat shooting round compared to the 7.62*, but is under half the bullet weight.
So one might ask; &#8216;How in the world can a smaller bullet be more lethal than a bigger one?&#8221; One word: cavitation. Cavitation is the rapid formation and collapse of a substance or material after an object enters it at a relatively high velocity. I guarantee you have seen cavitation before. Next time you are in the pool or on the boat, look at your hand as it passes through the water or the propeller spinning. In both cases you will notice bubbles on the trailing edge of each. You see this because the liquid water falls below its vapor pressure. Without getting into physics and the hydrodynamics behind it, I&#8217;ll just leave it at that. *When a human body is hit with a 5.56mm 62-grain bullet traveling at 3,100 feet per second; essentially the same thing happens but much, much more violently. For a split second, the cavity created inside the human body by the round from an M-16/M-4 is about the size of a basketball (if hit dead center of mass). The 5.56 creates this massive cavitation by tumbling through the body initiated by inherently unstable flight.*

Other calibers of bullets travel through the body on, more or less of, a straight line after some fragmentation. When the 5.56 round was first designed by Remington, it was meant to tumble through a target, not kill with brute force. It did this not only by the relatively blunt shape, but also by using a rifle barrel with less of a twist. Next time you look at an M-4 or an AR-15, notice it says &#8220;5.56 NATO 1:7&#8221; on the barrel. This literally translates into; &#8220;the bullet will make 1 full rotation for every 7 inches of this barrel.&#8221; This was not always the standard twist set for the new NATO round. The first AR-15 made by Armalite, had a 1:14 twist making it a very, very unstable round. One can only imagine the orientation of the entry and exit wounds. Now if you haven&#8217;t figured it out already, the less the twist, the more unstable the round is. (1:14 twist is less than 1:7) *It is said in &#8220;firearm enthusiast&#8221; legend that the first tests were done on pig carcasses and that the entry wound could be on the lower right stomach with an exit wound coming out of the back upper left shoulder.* It left horrific wounds and terrible internal damage to its intended target, immediately drawing the interest of the US Military, in particular USAF General Curtis Emerson LeMay. That&#8217;s right folks, you can thank we in the United States Air Force for the M-16/M-4 legacy (I say this without sarcasm). He thought it was an ideal weapon for his deployed members of the USAF Security Forces for guarding the perimeters of Air Force installations in such places as Korea and Vietnam. Before military trials, Armalite increased the barrel twist to 1:12 to improve accuracy. But when tested in frigid Alaska, accuracy was decreased because of the increased friction from the denser, colder air. Therefore, the barrel twist was eventually increased from 1:12 to 1:9 and eventually to the 1:7 you see it today. Although some bull-barreled AR-15&#8217;s and Stoner Sniper Rifles can be found in a 1:9, most issued M-16&#8217;s and M-4;s are primarily a 1:7 twist.
This change increased the accuracy of the 5.56 round out past 500 meters, but decreased its lethality when striking a body. Now the real debate begins&#8230; How truly deadly is the 5.56? Well, this past April when I was going through Combat Skills Training at Ft. McCoy, Wisconsin, one week was spent in Combat Life-Saving class (CLS). *The medics who instructed us had slide show after slide show of combat injuries they have treated over their last three deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. And let me tell you, these were not for the weak stomachs among us. If you are reading this article, I bet you are the same type of person as I to ask, &#8220;What calibers caused those wounds?&#8221; These men and women have seen the worst injuries of coalition forces and enemy combatants alike. The Geneva Conventions state that medics must provide medical care to all captured enemy personnel when able. Therefore, many Taliban and Jihadist fighters came across their operating rooms. After class one day I asked all of them, &#8220;Do any of you doubt the killing power of the 5.56 round?&#8221; They all answered with a resounding, &#8220;NO.&#8221;*
I personally don&#8217;t like telling war stories but I do enjoy telling hunting stories. I have brought down 180 to 200+ pound deer with a 55 grain .223 FMJ (full metal jacket) with no problem. Yes, I know, the counter argument to that is, &#8220;Well that&#8217;s not an enemy combatant hopped up on cocaine, khat or adrenaline.&#8221; I understand that, but if you saw the exit wound or those on the pictures from the combat medics, you would certainly cease your criticism of the 5.56. However, there are certain design features of the M-16/M-4 that continue to puzzle me.
We have all heard the reports of those rifles failing during combat during Vietnam and even yet today. During the 60&#8217;s when it was first introduced, it was hailed as &#8220;the self-cleaning rifle.&#8221; Of course that was proven to be a myth within the first months of its service. Soon thereafter, cleaning kits, cleaning manuals with attractive cartoon-like characters, and muzzle covers were issued in large numbers. A lot of the first problems the rifle saw were due to using ball powder vs. stick powder. Ball powder burns hotter, faster and dirtier than stick does. This caused the rifle to gum up quicker in the humid atmosphere of Vietnam and mis-feed the rounds. The U.S. Military then switched back to the cleaner burning stick powder and added a forward assist to jam the bolt carrier forward after heat expansion and carbon build-up. The military saw this problem and fixed it fairly early on, so why haven&#8217;t they saw the clear flaw in the 100% gas-blowback operation of the firearm? Why haven&#8217;t they learned lessons from rifles such as the AK-47, AK-74, G36, SCAR and countless other who have switched to a short stroke gas piston?

So far rifles such as the HK 416, HK 417, SCAR and MAGPUL Masada have all incorporated this short stroke gas piston in their designs and have all seen massive reductions in carbon build-up, over-heating, and mis-feeds. If this needs any explaining; what this basically does is stop the hot, carbon-filled gasses just rear of the front sight and pushes a pistol-like rod back instead of the gas traveling all the way back to the bolt carrier assembly. It is even possible to convert current uppers to this gas piston system using such kits as those offered by Bushmaster. If the cost benefit is too great for these kits to be installed, why not begin to install them on the floor as they are now? They are 100% compatible with all lowers used by the M-16 and M-4.
So in conclusion, the main flaws of the M-16/M-4 assault rifle system is not necessarily in the round itself, but in one minor design feature of just the upper. This article is meant as a predecessor to a piece in the making on the advantages to switching to a round such as the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. The 5.56 round is effective, but could be better. I want to hear your feedback. Tell me why so many people (mostly civilians) think the flaws of the rifle are in the round. I&#8217;m looking to you military folks; tell me about your operational experience with it. Airsoft players, armchair generals, and firearm enthusiasts; let&#8217;s hear your voice, but don&#8217;t comment on its &#8220;knock-down power&#8221; unless you hunt big game with a .223 or were once in the military and have used it in combat. Next up: A viable future replacement for the 5.56 and the M-16/M-4 combat rifles along with first-hand news from the front on forces already making the switch.
Remember; every rifle and every round can be equally as deadly when put in the right hands. We seek to find the perfect round and the perfect rifle to increase that number of hands.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

DARKY said:


> Not preferred by Pak Army is a different think(changing the standard rounds is very complex and expensive process which even US army can't afford every time).
> As far as I know 5.56 rounds are better penetrators than 7.62 as it has got more spin and muzzle velocity.....the problem lies in the cover penetration capability and ricochet.....of 5.56 rounds at longer ranges.
> 
> Here's a very good article go through;
> 
> There are a lot of myths and misconceptions surrounding the current M16A1, M16A2, M4, M16A4NATO 5.56 round and its effectiveness on the battlefield. Now before you make a judgment as a soldier or as a firearm enthusiast (a more euphemistic way of saying gun nut), consider your sources. Who is it that is telling you the 5.56mm, or .223 if you prefer, is an ineffective round? Is this source an armchair general who has watched Blackhawk Down one too many times; or a Navy Corpsman who has been attached to a MEF fighting in Fallujah and has seen, treated and inflicted these wounds with his own M-4? People look at the .30-06 round from their grandfathers M1 Garand and the 7.62×51mm round from their dads M-14 and compare it to the M-16/M-4s 5.56 and think; Wow, this is considerably smaller. Therefore, it must be less effective.
> 
> Now Joe Nichols had it right when he said, Size Matters. However, when you are talking about combat cartridges this is not always the case, and I say that hesitantly. When the 5.56 was derived from Remingtons .223 in the late 1950s, it was meant as a force multiplier if you will. By that I mean a soldier could literally carry twice as much ammunition as one who has the older 7.62 for the same weight. They wanted a soldier who could stay longer in the field without re-supply and could literally out-last and out-shoot the enemy in many aspects. The 5.56 is an incredibly fast and flat shooting round compared to the 7.62, but is under half the bullet weight.
> So one might ask; How in the world can a smaller bullet be more lethal than a bigger one? One word: cavitation. Cavitation is the rapid formation and collapse of a substance or material after an object enters it at a relatively high velocity. I guarantee you have seen cavitation before. Next time you are in the pool or on the boat, look at your hand as it passes through the water or the propeller spinning. In both cases you will notice bubbles on the trailing edge of each. You see this because the liquid water falls below its vapor pressure. Without getting into physics and the hydrodynamics behind it, Ill just leave it at that. When a human body is hit with a 5.56mm 62-grain bullet traveling at 3,100 feet per second; essentially the same thing happens but much, much more violently. For a split second, the cavity created inside the human body by the round from an M-16/M-4 is about the size of a basketball (if hit dead center of mass). The 5.56 creates this massive cavitation by tumbling through the body initiated by inherently unstable flight.
> 
> Other calibers of bullets travel through the body on, more or less of, a straight line after some fragmentation. When the 5.56 round was first designed by Remington, it was meant to tumble through a target, not kill with brute force. It did this not only by the relatively blunt shape, but also by using a rifle barrel with less of a twist. Next time you look at an M-4 or an AR-15, notice it says 5.56 NATO 1:7 on the barrel. This literally translates into; the bullet will make 1 full rotation for every 7 inches of this barrel. This was not always the standard twist set for the new NATO round. The first AR-15 made by Armalite, had a 1:14 twist making it a very, very unstable round. One can only imagine the orientation of the entry and exit wounds. Now if you havent figured it out already, the less the twist, the more unstable the round is. (1:14 twist is less than 1:7) It is said in firearm enthusiast legend that the first tests were done on pig carcasses and that the entry wound could be on the lower right stomach with an exit wound coming out of the back upper left shoulder. It left horrific wounds and terrible internal damage to its intended target, immediately drawing the interest of the US Military, in particular USAF General Curtis Emerson LeMay. Thats right folks, you can thank we in the United States Air Force for the M-16/M-4 legacy (I say this without sarcasm). He thought it was an ideal weapon for his deployed members of the USAF Security Forces for guarding the perimeters of Air Force installations in such places as Korea and Vietnam. Before military trials, Armalite increased the barrel twist to 1:12 to improve accuracy. But when tested in frigid Alaska, accuracy was decreased because of the increased friction from the denser, colder air. Therefore, the barrel twist was eventually increased from 1:12 to 1:9 and eventually to the 1:7 you see it today. Although some bull-barreled AR-15s and Stoner Sniper Rifles can be found in a 1:9, most issued M-16s and M-4;s are primarily a 1:7 twist.
> This change increased the accuracy of the 5.56 round out past 500 meters, but decreased its lethality when striking a body. Now the real debate begins How truly deadly is the 5.56? Well, this past April when I was going through Combat Skills Training at Ft. McCoy, Wisconsin, one week was spent in Combat Life-Saving class (CLS). The medics who instructed us had slide show after slide show of combat injuries they have treated over their last three deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. And let me tell you, these were not for the weak stomachs among us. If you are reading this article, I bet you are the same type of person as I to ask, What calibers caused those wounds? These men and women have seen the worst injuries of coalition forces and enemy combatants alike. The Geneva Conventions state that medics must provide medical care to all captured enemy personnel when able. Therefore, many Taliban and Jihadist fighters came across their operating rooms. After class one day I asked all of them, Do any of you doubt the killing power of the 5.56 round? They all answered with a resounding, NO.
> I personally dont like telling war stories but I do enjoy telling hunting stories. I have brought down 180 to 200+ pound deer with a 55 grain .223 FMJ (full metal jacket) with no problem. Yes, I know, the counter argument to that is, Well thats not an enemy combatant hopped up on cocaine, khat or adrenaline. I understand that, but if you saw the exit wound or those on the pictures from the combat medics, you would certainly cease your criticism of the 5.56. However, there are certain design features of the M-16/M-4 that continue to puzzle me.
> We have all heard the reports of those rifles failing during combat during Vietnam and even yet today. During the 60s when it was first introduced, it was hailed as the self-cleaning rifle. Of course that was proven to be a myth within the first months of its service. Soon thereafter, cleaning kits, cleaning manuals with attractive cartoon-like characters, and muzzle covers were issued in large numbers. A lot of the first problems the rifle saw were due to using ball powder vs. stick powder. Ball powder burns hotter, faster and dirtier than stick does. This caused the rifle to gum up quicker in the humid atmosphere of Vietnam and mis-feed the rounds. The U.S. Military then switched back to the cleaner burning stick powder and added a forward assist to jam the bolt carrier forward after heat expansion and carbon build-up. The military saw this problem and fixed it fairly early on, so why havent they saw the clear flaw in the 100% gas-blowback operation of the firearm? Why havent they learned lessons from rifles such as the AK-47, AK-74, G36, SCAR and countless other who have switched to a short stroke gas piston?
> 
> So far rifles such as the HK 416, HK 417, SCAR and MAGPUL Masada have all incorporated this short stroke gas piston in their designs and have all seen massive reductions in carbon build-up, over-heating, and mis-feeds. If this needs any explaining; what this basically does is stop the hot, carbon-filled gasses just rear of the front sight and pushes a pistol-like rod back instead of the gas traveling all the way back to the bolt carrier assembly. It is even possible to convert current uppers to this gas piston system using such kits as those offered by Bushmaster. If the cost benefit is too great for these kits to be installed, why not begin to install them on the floor as they are now? They are 100% compatible with all lowers used by the M-16 and M-4.
> So in conclusion, the main flaws of the M-16/M-4 assault rifle system is not necessarily in the round itself, but in one minor design feature of just the upper. This article is meant as a predecessor to a piece in the making on the advantages to switching to a round such as the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. The 5.56 round is effective, but could be better. I want to hear your feedback. Tell me why so many people (mostly civilians) think the flaws of the rifle are in the round. Im looking to you military folks; tell me about your operational experience with it. Airsoft players, armchair generals, and firearm enthusiasts; lets hear your voice, but dont comment on its knock-down power unless you hunt big game with a .223 or were once in the military and have used it in combat. Next up: A viable future replacement for the 5.56 and the M-16/M-4 combat rifles along with first-hand news from the front on forces already making the switch.
> Remember; every rifle and every round can be equally as deadly when put in the right hands. We seek to find the perfect round and the perfect rifle to increase that number of hands.


 
Why change caliber when why not a weapon? PAK ARMY loves 7.62mm nd will probably change the weapon thus no issue of logistics n no material losses!!


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## DARKY

Kakgeta said:


> They told me that and I believed it too, that was before I was cornered by a *Talib sniper with a .303* in Bajaur and my AMD-65 wouldn't even scare him. I had to spend 30 minutes in a ditch, risking capture to wait for some one to shoot back at the bastard. Finally, one of our guys with a G-3 shot at him and, the shot hit a rock near him, scaring him enough to flee. The ISAF here in Afghanistan have also been faced with a similar problem.


 
Sir That's why we have couple of snipers in each company or one in each platoon depending on mission(correct me if I am wrong in this regard, I am not a professional like you)..........thank god that was a Talib sniper......a good sniper would have shot both the guy and you rather than running away.........".303'' bolt action rifles are very good !!


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## DARKY

Kakgeta said:


> They told me that and I believed it too, that was before I was cornered by a *Talib sniper with a .303* in Bajaur and my AMD-65 wouldn't even scare him. I had to spend 30 minutes in a ditch, risking capture to wait for some one to shoot back at the bastard. Finally, one of our guys with a G-3 shot at him and, the shot hit a rock near him, scaring him enough to flee. The ISAF here in Afghanistan have also been faced with a similar problem.


 
Sir That's why we have couple of snipers in each company or one in each platoon depending on mission(correct me if I am wrong in this regard, I am not a professional like you)..........thank god that was a Talib sniper......a good sniper would have shot both the guy and you rather than running away.........".303'' bolt action rifles are very good !!


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## rockstarIN

Kakgeta said:


> They told me that and I believed it too, that was before I was cornered by a Talib sniper with a .303 in Bajaur and my AMD-65 wouldn't even scare him. I had to spend 30 minutes in a ditch, risking capture to wait for some one to shoot back at the bastard. Finally, one of our guys with a G-3 shot at him and, the shot hit a rock near him, scaring him enough to flee. The ISAF here in Afghanistan have also been faced with a similar problem.


 
Fine, now every force who are in COIN operations recon the same. That is why rifles which can fire both the bullets are considered to be future preferred weapon.


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## DARKY

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Why change caliber when why not a weapon? PAK ARMY loves 7.62mm nd will probably change the weapon thus no issue of logistics n no material losses!!


 
As I told earlier modern day battlefield would see multicalibered rifles even India is developing one for F-INSAS program.........any choice of a new rifle would be made keeping this in mind both heavier and lighter round have their advantages and disadvantages and it's always better if your rifle can fire both.........even Russian Army rejected AK-200 and are going for a completely new rifle.......no wonder why.


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## rockstarIN

rockstar said:


> Fine, now every force who are in COIN operations recon the same. That is why rifles which can fire both the bullets are considered to be future preferred weapon. By the way, 7.62x39 by AND-65 is no less lethal even against .303


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Kakgeta said:


> They told me that and I believed it too, that was before I was cornered by a Talib sniper with a .303 in Bajaur and my AMD-65 wouldn't even scare him. I had to spend 30 minutes in a ditch, risking capture to wait for some one to shoot back at the bastard. Finally, one of our guys with a G-3 shot at him and, the shot hit a rock near him, scaring him enough to flee. The ISAF here in Afghanistan have also been faced with a similar problem.


 
AMD 65 ?dont pa have type 56? they look same but amg is advance


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## Icarus

DARKY said:


> Sir That's why we have couple of snipers in each company or one in each platoon depending on mission(correct me if I am wrong in this regard, I am not a professional like you)..........thank god that was a Talib sniper......a good sniper would have shot both the guy and you rather than running away.........".303'' bolt action rifles are very good !!


 
Indeed, however these people do not shoot to kill. They shoot to wound. Often it is just about singling out the person with the most number of pips on his shoulder(or a civilian dress in my case) and then shooting him again and again and again in his arms, legs, abdomens, etc. Anywhere where it hurts like hell and doesn't kill you. They do this to the point that you yourself remove your helmet and invite them to kill you.


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## Icarus

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> AMD 65 ?dont pa have type 56? they look same but amg is advance


 
It's my personal weapon.......not service issue.

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## Icarus

rockstar said:


> rockstar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fine, now every force who are in COIN operations recon the same. That is why rifles which can fire both the bullets are considered to be future preferred weapon. By the way, 7.62x39 by AND-65 is no less lethal even against .303
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a question of range.
Click to expand...


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## Bratva

Kakgeta said:


> Indeed, however these people do not shoot to kill. They shoot to wound. Often it is just about singling out the person with the most number of pips on his shoulder(or a civilian dress in my case) and then shooting him again and again and again in his arms, legs, abdomens, etc. Anywhere where it hurts like hell and doesn't kill you. They do this to the point that you yourself remove your helmet and invite them to kill you.


 
wasn't there was sniper with you when this happened?


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## asad71

Kakgeta said:


> rockstar said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a question of range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Human eye can aim correctly only upto 300 yds. That is, a trained soldier will hit bull's eye at 300 yds under battle condition. Beyond that distance a telescopic sight is required. That is why theoretically the good old .303 remains as lethal as the best rifle available.
> 
> 2. Btw, we in BD manufacture BD-08 rifle which has been adopted from the Chinese Type 81. BD-08 is our standard assault rifle.
Click to expand...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Kakgeta said:


> rockstar said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a question of range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G3A3 with a scope is an excellent sniper.............. ive seen it with quiet a few soldiers........ Also i think POF produced PSG-1,range masters were given to infantry unite per squad or smthin... werent they?
Click to expand...


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## Last Hope

Kakgeta said:


> Wouldn't be the first time this prospect is being discussed. I would like to know which one they are considering this time.............


 
Well, I am surprised, being a Professional you haven't got an idea about it.
Sorry I cannot mention it to avoid any hues within the Forum as well as outside. Classified till they want to announce, but its from the same supplier as of G3s


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## DARKY

Kakgeta said:


> Indeed, however *these people do not shoot to kill*. They shoot to wound. Often it is just about singling out the person with the most number of pips on his shoulder(or a civilian dress in my case) and then shooting him again and again and again in his arms, legs, abdomens, etc. Anywhere where it hurts like hell and doesn't kill you. They do this to the point that you yourself remove your helmet and invite them to kill you.


 
Very correct Sir !! those guy shoot to injure the soldiers so that the strength of the group fighting against them is reduced......an injured soldiers takes away 4-6 of his fellows away from the battle field.....some times even 8 depending on situation and lethality of the injury......and they get the precious time to run away under a weaker fire power......an old tactics of Gorilla warfare.........or they could wait for the fellow soldiers to forget professionalism and rush for the help of injured solders and ending up being their target......further decreasing the opponent's fire power and inflicting a considerable damage !!


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## fatman17

*HK G36*

Assault rifle

The Heckler & Koch G36 rifle is described as a good, accurate and reliable weapon

Caliber 5.56 x 45 mm 
Weight (empty) 3.6 kg 
Length 1 000 mm 
Length (with folded stock) 758 mm 
Barrel length 480 mm 
Muzzle velocity 925 m/s 
Cyclic rate of fire 750 rpm 
Practical rate of fire 40 - 100 rpm 
Magazine capacity 30 rounds 
Sighting range 1 000 m 
Range of effective fire 800 m 


The G36 had been designed in the early 1990s by Heckler & Koch company (HK). It was intended to replace the ageing G3 rifle in service with the Bundeswehr. The new rifle has also been aimed at the export customers. It is worth mentioning that during trials a prototype of the HK G36 was rated higher than the Austrian Steyr AUG. The G36 entered service with the German Army as a standard infantry rifle in 1995. It is also in service with various law enforcement agencies worldwide.

The Heckler & Koch G36 is chambered for the 5.56 x 45 mm standard NATO round. It is a conventional gas operated, selective fire rifle. It uses some proven elements of the previous G3 rifle design. Internally it also bears a lot of similarity with the US Armalite AR-18 automatic rifle.

The fire mode selector also serves as a safety switch. Rifle's trigger unit is assembled in a separate integral plastic housing, which also includes a pistol grip and the triggerguard. This interchangeable trigger unit has a wide variety of firing mode combinations. A standard version has single fire, two round burst and full-auto modes, however other combinations are possible.

Most of external parts of the G36 are made form polymers. Rifle's manufacturing process also employs the most modern technologies. The G36 is described as a good, accurate and reliable weapon. It is also simple in operation and maintenance. This rifle can be field stripped without any tools. However there were complaints about overheating of the polymer handguard during the sustained fire.

This weapon is ambidextrous. A charging handle can be rotated to the left or to the right. The ejection window has a spent cases deflector, which propels ejected cases from the left-handed shooter. The fire mode selector is also ambidextrous.

This rifle is fed form 30-round box-shaped magazines, made form translucent plastic. Two or three magazines can be clipped together for rapid reloading. This weapon is also compatible with a 100-round dual drum magazines. 

The G36 comes with a side-folding skeletonized buttstock, which folds to the right side. When folded this buttstock does not interfere with weapon's operation. After some adjustments this rifle becomes compatible with any standard NATO magazines, intended for the 5.56-mm ammunition.

A standard German Army rifle has a dual sight system. It consists of one 3.5x magnification scope, suitable for long-range accurate shooting and one 1x magnification red dot sight above it, suitable for short ranges. Both sights are built into the carrying handle. Some German soldiers complained that sights are being easily fogged in bad weather conditions.

This rifle is compatible with the HK AG36 40-mm underbarrel grenade launcher. It can be used to launch barrel-mounted riffle grenades. This weapon can be also fitted with an AK-74 type bayonet.



Variants


HK G36K a shorter carbine version. It comes with iron sights and Picatinny-type accessory rail instead of the carrying handle;

HK G36E export version, sometimes called as the G36V. It is fitted with a singe 1.5x magnification sight. Iron sights are molded on top of the carrying handle and are used only in case of emergency. This variant is in service with Spain;

HK G36KE, a shorter export version;

HK G36C a compact assault rifle, intended for the special operation forces and airborne troops. It has been developed from the G36K;

HK MG36 squad automatic weapon. It is a heavy-barreled version, fed from 100-round dual drum magazines and fitted with folding bipod. However this version has not been produced in quantity and is no longer offered;

HK G36A2 an upgraded variant used by the Bundeswehr. It is fitted with detachable red dot sight, new foregrip with three Picatinny-type rails.


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## Manticore




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## Tehmasib

First of, the G3A3 is german, not pakistani. Pakistan couldn't engineer a decent weapon if it's life depended on it. Secondly, the US Army, and the rest of NATO for that matter, did once use 7,62 mm assault rifles(M14, G3, FN-FAL SIG SG-510). They stopped doing that for a number of reasons, including: 1. The 7,62 mm is too heavy. 2. It has too much recoil. 3. Infantry engagements typically take place at less then 200 meters, so the additional range of the 7,62 mm is not needed. 4. There is plenty of punch in the 5,56 mm especially the much improved SS109 M855 bullets that are now standard-issue. To sum up, The G3A3 was not a bad weapon in it's day, but this is the 21st century. G3A3, as well as M14 and FN-FAL are considered obsolete by any modern military.


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## mymeaningislion

i think thats why SSG is using AK47 Modified in Mohmmand agency............


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Tehmasib said:


> First of, the G3A3 is german, not pakistani. Pakistan couldn't engineer a decent weapon if it's life depended on it. Secondly, the US Army, and the rest of NATO for that matter, did once use 7,62 mm assault rifles(M14, G3, FN-FAL SIG SG-510). They stopped doing that for a number of reasons, including: 1. The 7,62 mm is too heavy. 2. It has too much recoil. 3. Infantry engagements typically take place at less then 200 meters, so the additional range of the 7,62 mm is not needed. 4. There is plenty of punch in the 5,56 mm especially the much improved SS109 M855 bullets that are now standard-issue. To sum up, The G3A3 was not a bad weapon in it's day, but this is the 21st century. G3A3, as well as M14 and FN-FAL are considered obsolete by any modern military.


 
sorry for busting ur bubble pak have its one rifen the pk series yes its not yet in the feield but it is considered to be a concreat future replacement.


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## Silk

Tehmasib said:


> First of, the G3A3 is german, not pakistani. Pakistan couldn't engineer a decent weapon if it's life depended on it. Secondly, the US Army, and the rest of NATO for that matter, did once use 7,62 mm assault rifles(M14, G3, FN-FAL SIG SG-510). They stopped doing that for a number of reasons, including: 1. The 7,62 mm is too heavy. 2. It has too much recoil. 3. Infantry engagements typically take place at less then 200 meters, so the additional range of the 7,62 mm is not needed. 4. There is plenty of punch in the 5,56 mm especially the much improved SS109 M855 bullets that are now standard-issue. To sum up, The G3A3 was not a bad weapon in it's day, but this is the 21st century. G3A3, as well as M14 and FN-FAL are considered obsolete by any modern military.



Yes, the G3 is german. But the ground conditions are totally ignored in your post. If the western designs are optimized for short range and only wounding the opponent, does that impact what you see in Pakistani engagements? If the western military all are complaining that the smaller nato round is not good enough then does that change your opinion? The opponents are not interested in being wounded. They will fight till they die. They will attack from far and run away. That is Sun Tzu. 

Often posters think that western equipment is better. It is not always the case. A merkava is superb for Israel. A Khalid will do perfect in Pakistani eastern front. A leopard is the best in mid Europe. Why, because the local conditions set the parameters. That is why Pakistan is using e.q. Kalashnikov in the western front. Reliable, good hitting power and cheap. If you can deliver something like that form other nations then we can continue the conversation.

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## fatman17

Tehmasib said:


> First of, the G3A3 is german, not pakistani. Pakistan couldn't engineer a decent weapon if it's life depended on it. Secondly, the US Army, and the rest of NATO for that matter, did once use 7,62 mm assault rifles(M14, G3, FN-FAL SIG SG-510). They stopped doing that for a number of reasons, including: 1. The 7,62 mm is too heavy. 2. It has too much recoil. 3. Infantry engagements typically take place at less then 200 meters, so the additional range of the 7,62 mm is not needed. 4. *There is plenty of punch in the 5,56 mm *especially the much improved SS109 M855 bullets that are now standard-issue. To sum up, The G3A3 was not a bad weapon in it's day, but this is the 21st century. G3A3, as well as M14 and FN-FAL are considered obsolete by any modern military.



that is why ISAF/Nato soldiers in afghanistan are complaining about the lack of punch in the 5.56mm and would prefer the 7.62mm to ensure their kills. so maybe they know something we dont know.

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## BordoEnes

Kind of skipped all the comment to say one thing : G3 MUST BE REPLACED!!! its old and it has much problems such as jamming and the soldiers of the Turkish army have reported that its a really crappy rifle, But luckely we are replacing them with the new mehmetcik rifle, (Not the First which was based on Hk416) Hope pakistan does the same, Mehmetcik 1 or HK417 seems like good candidates

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## Icarus

Last Hope said:


> Well, I am surprised, being a Professional you haven't got an idea about it.
> Sorry I cannot mention it to avoid any hues within the Forum as well as outside. Classified till they want to announce, but its from the same supplier as of G3s


 
Like I said, wouldn't be the first time and I may not know anything about it because it does not fall under areas of my concern. I hope it isn't 5.56mm.


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## Icarus

DARKY said:


> Very correct Sir !! those guy shoot to injure the soldiers so that the strength of the group fighting against them is reduced......an injured soldiers takes away 4-6 of his fellows away from the battle field.....some times even 8 depending on situation and lethality of the injury......and they get the precious time to run away under a weaker fire power......an old tactics of Gorilla warfare.........or they could wait for the fellow soldiers to forget professionalism and rush for the help of injured solders and ending up being their target......further decreasing the opponent's fire power and inflicting a considerable damage !!


 
Exactly. This tactic was used extensively by insurgents in Iraq during Op "Iraqi Freedom" as well.


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## Icarus

BordoEnes said:


> Kind of skipped all the comment to say one thing : G3 MUST BE REPLACED!!! its old and it has much problems such as jamming and the soldiers of the Turkish army have reported that its a really crappy rifle, But luckely we are replacing them with the new mehmetcik rifle, (Not the First which was based on Hk416) Hope pakistan does the same, Mehmetcik 1 or HK417 seems like good candidates


 
Pakistani G-3s are crafted from the finest gun metal and fashioned to perfection. In two years I have yet to hear a soldier complain about the effectiveness of his G-3. Yes, some would prefer a lighter, more compact assault rifle with less of a punch and under certain conditions, the G-3 does not perform well such as compound clearance, which is why we have squads with men manning both AKs and G-3s. The G-3 is a killer in the field, but when it comes to compound clearance, it's time for the guys with the AKs to take charge.

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## BordoEnes

Kakgeta said:


> Pakistani G-3s are crafted from the finest gun metal and fashioned to perfection. In two years I have yet to hear a soldier complain about the effectiveness of his G-3. Yes, some would prefer a lighter, more compact assault rifle with less of a punch and under certain conditions, the G-3 does not perform well such as compound clearance, which is why we have squads with men manning both AKs and G-3s. The G-3 is a killer in the field, but when it comes to compound clearance, it's time for the guys with the AKs to take charge.


 
Please dont comment with that propagandic attitude saying its was made by the 'Finest' metal or its made so perfect. We all know its a crappy rifle and its not competeable against even the jamming M16 (With 7.62mm). Complains are coming from turkish soldiers all the time because it has difficulties with the weapons in the mountains. Sure there are PAF soldiers that complain to. Watch any video of the G3 and you notice its jammes everytime, 
And BTW i said nothing about replacing them with assault rifles, The Mehmetcik 1 and HK417 are battle rifles with 7.62mm same as G3 but they have superior machenism. The G3 is a weak rifle in the battle duo its short range even when it has a 7.62mm Cartridge.

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## Psyxjen

BordoEnes said:


> Please dont comment with that propagandic attitude saying its was made by the 'Finest' metal or its made so perfect. We all know its a crappy rifle and its not competeable against even the jamming M16 (With 7.62mm). Complains are coming from turkish soldiers all the time because it has difficulties with the weapons in the mountains. Sure there are PAF soldiers that complain to. Watch any video of the G3 and you notice its jammes everytime.



Sir, I'm rather sure that if the rifle were as 'crappy' as you say, its service record wouldn't be as decorated as it is. It has been used by the Bundeswehr and so many other forces for over 50 years. The few armed forces personnel I know serving in the Waziristan area are quite pleased with its reliability and range in rugged, open terrain..

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## untitled

can anyone tell me by what date the G-3 was inducted in to Pak Army ? Did it replace the .303 or the American M-1 Garand ?


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## untitled

Kakgeta said:


> The G-3 is a killer in the field, but when it comes to compound clearance, it's time for the guys with the AKs to take charge.



Just a side note........... AKs are almost always carried by the bad guys...
Wont carrying the Kalashnikov make us even more evil in the eyes of the world ?


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## muse

So what kinds of specs would you like to see , the must have ,for a new main infantry weapon for the Pakistan army?


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## fatman17

varigeo said:


> can anyone tell me by what date the G-3 was inducted in to Pak Army ? Did it replace the .303 or the American M-1 Garand ?



i dont have the exact date but mid 70's comes to mind.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

When a poster writes a comment that the americans are going 5.56 way the other country goes that wa----then the poster is not familiar with the matter of war---he is just posting the information he has gathered from here or there.

In our arena---we often or all the time come across an enemy high on opium / hash----plus he has a religioius fervor that keeps him going----on a target like that---the 5.56 doesnot even leave a noticeable impact unless it is a head shot----secondly---in this arena the shots are taken at a longer range----we are not in a flatland----this is mountain and valley warfare-----with a 5.56 shot, the enemy keeps on coming---with a .308 or the ak 47 shot---you put the enemy down..

The 200 yds range was in plains and flatlands----not in this battle arena---.

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## fatman17

muse said:


> So what kinds of specs would you like to see , the must have ,for a new main infantry weapon for the Pakistan army?



PA is generally trained for conventional war - classic pitched battles from bunkers / ditches / foxholes. in such circumstances a 7.62mm would be preffered.

for COIN/ant-terror/close combat, a 5.56mm assault rifle would be the preference. in other words 'one single standard rifle' will not suffice. and that is why we already see a trend towards a mix of 7.62/5.56mm weapons.

PA has invested / collaborated with Heckler & Koch and it would be logical to upgrade the factory production lines to manufacture a new H&K rifle and assault SMG.

other options could be the austrian and belgian which also make good dependable rifles/SMG's. the US is out.


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## TaimiKhan

muse said:


> So what kinds of specs would you like to see , the must have ,for a new main infantry weapon for the Pakistan army?


 
Something which is both in hot and cold conditions. Something which can work in plains of punjab, deserts of punjab and sindh and at high altitudes of Kashmir, Norther Areas and Siachen. 

Something which has a good punching power, something which can be different roles with minimal changes.

My choice would be the HK-417. 

1. 7.62*51mm caliber, thus we don't need to change the infrastructure for manufacturing bullets and 7.62*51mm is a deadly round. Cost benefit.

2. G-3s magazine are interchangeable with HK-417, thus no need to replace such large number of magazines. Another cost benefit. 

3. HK-417 comes in many variants with different barrel lengths, from an assault rifle to a sniper rifle to close combat compound clearing version. Another benefit, no need for getting different rifles for different reasons, one rifle can do the job. thus ease of maintenance and logistical simplicity. 

I say, we look into this rifle and if it meets all the requirements, we should get it, its an awesome rifle. 

It would not be as costly as changing the whole caliber which would result in whole infrastructure to be changed.

The HK-417 shorter version for close quarter combat (if required)












Sniper Version:

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## Malik Usman

The G3 is only purpose is to kill the enemy not to entertain the enemy.

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## rockstarIN

^^^

The main disadvantage would be the weight of the cartridge.

7.62×51mm = 9.7 g (150 gr) FMJ, 1.3 g (174 gr) M118 

5.56×45mm = 4 g (62 gr) SS109 FMJBT, 4.1 g (63 gr) DM11 FMJBT


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## TaimiKhan

rockstar said:


> ^^^
> 
> The main disadvantage would be the weight of the cartridge.
> 
> 7.62×51mm = 9.7 g (150 gr) FMJ, 1.3 g (174 gr) M118
> 
> 5.56×45mm = 4 g (62 gr) SS109 FMJBT, 4.1 g (63 gr) DM11 FMJBT


 
But the benefit outsmarts the weight issue. 

Its a very deadly round with long range engagement ability, while 5.56*45mm lacks in these categories.


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## Juice

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When a poster writes a comment that the americans are going 5.56 way the other country goes that wa----then the poster is not familiar with the matter of war---he is just posting the information he has gathered from here or there.
> 
> In our arena---we often or all the time come across an enemy high on opium / hash----plus he has a religioius fervor that keeps him going----on a target like that---the 5.56 doesnot even leave a noticeable impact unless it is a head shot----secondly---in this arena the shots are taken at a longer range----we are not in a flatland----this is mountain and valley warfare-----with a 5.56 shot, the enemy keeps on coming---with a .308 or the ak 47 shot---you put the enemy down..
> 
> The 200 yds range was in plains and flatlands----not in this battle arena---.


 
This is correct, what is good in one arena is not good in another. What is needed is two main rifles, the terrain determines what mix is in the squad.


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## Icarus

BordoEnes said:


> Please dont comment with that propagandic attitude saying its was made by the 'Finest' metal or its made so perfect. We all know its a crappy rifle and its not competeable against even the jamming M16 (With 7.62mm). Complains are coming from turkish soldiers all the time because it has difficulties with the weapons in the mountains. Sure there are PAF soldiers that complain to. Watch any video of the G3 and you notice its jammes everytime,
> And BTW i said nothing about replacing them with assault rifles, The Mehmetcik 1 and HK417 are battle rifles with 7.62mm same as G3 but they have superior machenism. The G3 is a weak rifle in the battle duo its short range even when it has a 7.62mm Cartridge.


 
And like I said before, turkish soldiers may have problems with them during training however, our soldiers have had no problems with them during the course of Ops in FATA. In a live fire exercise where 24 men fires over 2400 rounds from 12 G-3s, only one jam occured. I would say that's acceptable. G-3 has been in service since the late 60s, i believe and over the time has gone through numerous upgrades and tweaks. It is a constant phase of development which ensures that these SAs are at their 100%. That's effective range, not the range of the weapon. Effective range for G-3 is about 380m I believe and that too can be increased by firing while sitting or slapping on a telescope, and voila ! Your g-3 now has an effective range of over 1.2Km !

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## Areesh

TaimiKhan said:


> But the benefit outsmarts the weight issue.
> 
> Its a very deadly round with long range engagement ability, while 5.56*45mm lacks in these categories.


 
So unlike G-3 this gun isn't going to jam at high altitudes??? Looks like a good replacement.


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## Icarus

varigeo said:


> Just a side note........... AKs are almost always carried by the bad guys...
> Wont carrying the Kalashnikov make us even more evil in the eyes of the world ?


 
The AK along with it's variants are the most common found SAs in the world. That includes military arsenals.


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## Xeric

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When a poster writes a comment that the americans are going 5.56 way the other country goes that wa----then the poster is not familiar with the matter of war---he is just posting the information he has gathered from here or there.
> 
> In our arena---we often or all the time come across an enemy high on opium / hash----plus he has a religioius fervor that keeps him going----on a target like that---the 5.56 doesnot even leave a noticeable impact unless it is a head shot----secondly---in this arena the shots are taken at a longer range----we are not in a flatland----this is mountain and valley warfare-----with a 5.56 shot, the enemy keeps on coming---with a .308 or the ak 47 shot---you put the enemy down..
> 
> The 200 yds range was in plains and flatlands----not in this battle arena---.


 


What did you take in breakfast today?


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## Icarus

TaimiKhan said:


> Something which is both in hot and cold conditions. Something which can work in plains of punjab, deserts of punjab and sindh and at high altitudes of Kashmir, Norther Areas and Siachen.
> 
> Something which has a good punching power, something which can be different roles with minimal changes.
> 
> My choice would be the HK-417.
> 
> 1. 7.62*51mm caliber, thus we don't need to change the infrastructure for manufacturing bullets and 7.62*51mm is a deadly round. Cost benefit.
> 
> 2. G-3s magazine are interchangeable with HK-417, thus no need to replace such large number of magazines. Another cost benefit.
> 
> 3. HK-417 comes in many variants with different barrel lengths, from an assault rifle to a sniper rifle to close combat compound clearing version. Another benefit, no need for getting different rifles for different reasons, one rifle can do the job. thus ease of maintenance and logistical simplicity.
> 
> I say, we look into this rifle and if it meets all the requirements, we should get it, its an awesome rifle.
> 
> It would not be as costly as changing the whole caliber which would result in whole infrastructure to be changed.
> 
> The HK-417 shorter version for close quarter combat (if required)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sniper Version:


 
Very detailed and well researched analysis however the fact of the matter remains that the HK-417 is a lot more complex than the G-3. Upgrading our facilities to being able to produce the HK-417 will require significant amount of money which we simply do not have at the moment. Secondly, there are over well over 1.5 million G-3s in service in Pakistan with the Army/Rangers/FC/Police/ANF replacing all of them will easily take over a decade, which means that for ten years our forces will have two separate standard assault rifles which results in issues relating to repair and parts production. To quicken the replacement process, we will have to buy possibly a couple of thousand to a few hundred thousand from HK itself. Which results in more expenditure.

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## Icarus

Areesh said:


> So unlike G-3 this gun isn't going to jam at high altitudes??? Looks like a good replacement.


 
Depends on what you mean when you say "High Altitude", if it's Siachen then rest assured, every gun jams at Siachen. Even the Indian's INSAS jammed and their polymer magazines split which would tear completely from the stress of firing within 5 rounds.

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## XYON

A few considerations here for the record.

1. Pakistan Army's preference is the 7.62x39mm caliber and not 7.62x51mm NATO!

2. Pakistan Army will prefer to switch to any AK-47 variant or a platform that can fire (single shot, to fully auto) the 7.62x39mm bullet.

3. USA will not be considered. China is out too! Army is looking towards Russian/ European brands

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## TaimiKhan

XYON said:


> A few considerations here for the record.
> 
> 1. Pakistan Army's preference is the 7.62x39mm caliber and not 7.62x51mm NATO!
> 
> 2. Pakistan Army will prefer to switch to any AK-47 variant or a platform that can fire (single shot, to fully auto) the 7.62x39mm bullet.
> 
> 3. USA will not be considered. China is out too! Army is looking towards Russian/ European brands



Well then what are they waiting for. 

PA has already started getting the POF made AK-47s with the folding stock. Kind of Type-56C variant of the Chinese. 

Get some experts, try to make a few changes in the firing mechanism, so that accuracy is improved and other atmospheric related improvements or whatever improvements are required or can be done, usage of good steel materials, composite material and give it picatinny rails / tactical rails for support of vertical fore grip and telescopic sights. 

I believe hiring some experts from abroad and designing something in house is gonna be more cost effective compared to getting something from abroad. 

By the way the AK series with 7.62*39mm bullet is also not a bad deal.

Ak-107 is a good platform to be looked into, provided the Russians give us something.

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## Juice

XYON said:


> A few considerations here for the record.
> 
> 1. Pakistan Army's preference is the 7.62x39mm caliber and not 7.62x51mm NATO!
> 
> 2. Pakistan Army will prefer to switch to any AK-47 variant or a platform that can fire (single shot, to fully auto) the 7.62x39mm bullet.
> 
> 3. USA will not be considered. China is out too! Army is looking towards Russian/ European brands


 
The G-3's I have seen use NATO 7.62...are the PAK Armies different?


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## untitled

Juice said:


> The G-3's I have seen use NATO 7.62...are the PAK Armies different?



Pak Army uses the same caliber.... 7.62 NATO

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## TaimiKhan

Juice said:


> The G-3's I have seen use NATO 7.62...are the PAK Armies different?


 
What he meant was that PA wishes to shift its caliber from 7.62*51mm to 7362*39mm, which would need a change in the firing platform also, a new platform other then G-3

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## S-A-B-E-R->

varigeo said:


> Pak Army uses the same caliber.... 7.62 NATO


 7.62x51 is NATO(M16, G36 etc)
7.62x39 is Russian(Ak series+some Bushmaster and Magpul masada varients)


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## S-A-B-E-R->

TaimiKhan said:


> What he meant was that PA wishes to shift its caliber from 7.62*51mm to 7362*39mm, which would need a change in the firing platform also, a new platform other then G-3


 
if we go a little back we had a system withen our pk series that could fire &.62 russian ,same operation as a G3 (less traning) but mor accurate than a AK 47 with hier rate of fire.i herd many ranking officers prefered that to be our next system.


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## fatman17

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> if we go a little back we had a system withen our pk series that could fire &.62 russian ,same operation as a G3 (less traning) but mor accurate than a AK 47 with hier rate of fire.i herd many ranking officers prefered that to be our next system.



the final choice of weapon has not been made.

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## Jango

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> if we go a little back we had a system withen our pk series that could fire &.62 russian ,same operation as a G3 (less traning) but mor accurate than a AK 47 with hier rate of fire.i herd many ranking officers prefered that to be our next system.


 
IMO, the opinion of the JCO and NCO is much preferred in case of battle rifles, along with the officers' of course.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

fatman17 said:


> the final choice of weapon has not been made.


 
i know i m just telling abt a possible choice.


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## Last Hope

Kakgeta said:


> Like I said, wouldn't be the first time and I may not know anything about it because it does not fall under areas of my concern. I hope it isn't 5.56mm.


Its the same caliber.


Anyways are we forgetting something?
The G3 used by Pakistan are a little different from those of Turkish.
Anyhow, we are changing the G3 with a gun of same caliber and same producer.
Wait for it to roll out.


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## MastanKhan

Xeric said:


> What did you take in breakfast today?


 

Hi,

My wife made some french toast--------another thing I forgot regarding the 5.56 round----it was thought that this bullet won't be lethal and the soldier would be wounded---but not critically---so other soldiers would stop to help him out----that meant tending to the wounded----that meant taking the resources away from the active battlefield.

Well---in real life this thought got negated---the soldiers / terrorists didnot stop to tend to the wounded----secondly the wounded could carry themselves for awhile longer if not hit in a critical area-----as compared to a hit from a .308 or from an AK 47 round-----.

People don't realize that it is the kinetic energy in the round that is debilitating----that is why they call the .50 round an anywhere round-----it hits you any where on the body-----you are gone----the shock of the impact of the larger calibre does you in---the jacketed 5.56 will just go through---. I don't want to get hit by it either.

Now don't get me wrong on that-----the american contractors experimented in iraq---a .177---.2 calibre rounds-----extremely high velocity round with muzzle velocity of around or over 4000ft/sec----in close quarters, this high speed bullet would shatter on impact and totally destroy the area where it contacted. But you can't use that round in a legally sanctioned war.

So, basically you need more rounds to take one person down-----now in close quarter fighting---you really need something with massive stopping power when you are facing someone high on opium and hash---. Also---in our frontier region---between the mountains and valleys----the range of combat varies widely----one moment you are firing at 300---500 yards----the next you are in close quarters---so---under these scenarios----it is very very difficult to pick up the right calibre rifle that can do it all in one go.

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## TaimiKhan

Here check out the HK-417 in the shorter barrel version, seems smaller then the AK-47with full wooden butt:







And the awesome firepower of G-3s, its a destructive weapon:


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## Xeric

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My wife made some french toast--------another thing I forgot regarding the 5.56 round----it was thought that this bullet won't be lethal and the soldier would be wounded---but not critically---so other soldiers would stop to help him out----that meant tending to the wounded----that meant taking the resources away from the active battlefield.
> 
> Well---in real life this thought got negated---the soldiers / terrorists didnot stop to tend to the wounded----secondly the wounded could carry themselves for awhile longer if not hit in a critical area-----as compared to a .308 or from an AK 47 round-----.
> 
> People don't realize that it the kinetic energy in the round that is debilitating----that is why they call the .50 round an anywhere round-----it hits you any where on the body-----you are gone----the shock of the impact of the larger calibre does you in---the jacketed 5.56 just went through---I don't want to get hit by it either.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong on that-----the american contractors experimented in iraq---a .177---.2 calibre rounds-----extremely high velocity round with muzzle velocity of around or over 4000ft/sec----in close quartersthis high speed bullet would shatter on impact and totally destroy the area where it contacted. But you can't use that round in a legally sanctioned war.


 
French toasts are guud. Please tell her to make some more of those to you, it always brings out the best of you 

Yeah, you are right. If one gets any on of these bullets the results can be fatal. The main essence of creating .56 was to *"increase the logistic load of the enemy"*, that's to say, with more 'non-fatal' casualties the enemy would probably bog down (to back load the injured, medics, extraction, replacement etc) as compared to the enemy who would lose men, bury them and move forward, but as you have rightly pointed out that this wont work in our scenario, and with the hash and opium (man, you made my day, you couldnt have put better) and the blind motivation/determination that saturates in our case, i dont think a .56 would do much harm to it's receivers.

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## saumyasupratik

Couples of questions I wanted to ask.

1)What's the standard issue side-arm of the Pakistan Army?
2)The PK-10's that POF produces are they licensed/unlicensed copies of the Beretta 92's or an indigenous design?
3)Lastly what all AK various variants are in use by PA?I am aware of Type 56, 56-1(underfolder) and 56-2(sidefolder) all with milled receiver.Do these Type 56's have the AKM palmswell handguard or the regular Type 56/AK47 handguard or a mix of both?


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## TaimiKhan

saumyasupratik said:


> Couples of questions I wanted to ask.
> 
> 1)What's the standard issue side-arm of the Pakistan Army?
> 2)The PK-10's that POF produces are they licensed/unlicensed copies of the Beretta 92's or an indigenous design?
> 3)Lastly what all AK various variants are in use by PA?I am aware of Type 56, 56-1(underfolder) and 56-2(sidefolder) all with milled receiver.Do these Type 56's have the AKM palmswell handguard or the regular Type 56/AK47 handguard or a mix of both?


 
1. There is no standard issue side arm with the PA. Officer mostly are buying their own weapons for self protection purposes in private capacity as well as they use it on official duties. Yeah, the special forces guys are issued with side arms, mostly Glocks and some other variants. 

2. Most probably an unlicensed copy of the Beretta design. May not be 100% actual copy of the Beretta, but seems to be influenced by it and the firing mechanism may also be similar to Beretta. 

3. We have the basic Type-56, 56-1 & 56-II versions in service an they have the regular palm swell hand guards. Plus, our special forces do use the Russian version of AK-47s and latest AK series too.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Taimi have u seen the new SMG(AK variant) issued to PA soldiers? in the brownish color,side foldable stock.... tht is made by POF...
Here:



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The POF manufactured SMG.



TT,makarovs,vikings,ruggers and walthers are also being used by FC....


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## muse

So this far, the specs (rough) are a Rugged simple system given the climatic and altitude variations, must fire the 7.62, economic to manufacture - why not partner with Turkiye on the 417 and in this way reduce costs for both?

Can we also discuss sights, especially day and night laser - what kinds of specs would the army want ?


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## saumyasupratik

TaimiKhan said:


> 1. There is no standard issue side arm with the PA. Officer mostly are buying their own weapons for self protection purposes in private capacity as well as they use it on official duties. Yeah, the special forces guys are issued with side arms, mostly Glocks and some other variants.



PA SSG are also equipped with the Steyr M9-A1's as there standard issue sidearm.



TaimiKhan said:


> 2. Most probably an unlicensed copy of the Beretta design. May not be 100% actual copy of the Beretta, but seems to be influenced by it and the firing mechanism may also be similar to Beretta.



It looks very similar to the Beretta 92



TaimiKhan said:


> 3. We have the basic Type-56, 56-1 & 56-II versions in service an they have the regular palm swell hand guards. Plus, our special forces do use the Russian version of AK-47s and latest AK series too.



By Russian version of AK-47 you mean the stamped receiver AKM or the original milled receiver AK-47?AK-103's are also used I believe?

What about PKM's and RPD's?Does the PA use the original Russian versions of the PK and RPD or the Chinese copies the Type 56 LMG(RPD) and Type 80(PK)?Dragunovs as well are they Russian or Chinese in origin?


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## Zabaniyah

How about the G-36? 










It'll make a good standard issue.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Why dont we modify our SMGs to the SSG standard rifles by POF? Or maybe the new Modified G-3S shown in ideas by POF.

Or just get the mehmet rifles frm turkey... will save us the hassle of wasting the magazines and the stock of 7.62 ammo.


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## Arsalan

*@ TaimiKhan*
do you think that AK-47 will be a good option. its true that this caliber matches the preference of PA with 7.62mm rounds but its accuracy is something that can easily be termed as poor.
if at all, PA does finalize the AK series, they must go for variant with some accuracy.
i think that after a successful experience with H&K PA must look into more options from this supplier.
we do need a gun that can fire repeat automatic rounds and also single shots (as per requirement), short burst mode of 3 rounds will be a nice addition and bonus.

why don't POF try and develop something of there own that can meet all the PA requirement. they take Billions in funds and must at least put up a successful show in this regard.

regards!


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## Arsalan

POF have put up a good show with the POF Eye and the modified AK and G-3 guns. 








POF can develop the PA future assault Rifle as well. the only problem that i can think of is that if PA is to get guns from a local company like POF that is also state run organization, there will be lesser corruption margins for the high up and lesser opportunity to bag some $$$

regards!


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## Arsalan

Aeronaut said:


> Looks like we have found ourselves a solution - say hello to *POF- G3s*
> 
> Displayed in IDEX 2011 Dubai.



PA is interested in gun with a repeat fire/short burst/single shot interchangeable mod.
as per my information the G3S is still the same old single shot weapon. can anybody confirm?


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

m4s? come on man
i think g3 is good enough. accurate, very high power and more reliable then a m4.
if we are going to replace the g3 then it would be best to choose the HK416. it comes in both 5.56 and the 7.62


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## ali.ali

I think G3 also accurate but m4 is reliable g3.


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## Jango

saumyasupratik said:


> PA SSG are also equipped with the Steyr M9-A1's as there standard issue sidearm.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks very similar to the Beretta 92
> 
> 
> 
> By Russian version of AK-47 you mean the stamped receiver AKM or the original milled receiver AK-47?AK-103's are also used I believe?
> 
> What about PKM's and RPD's?Does the PA use the original Russian versions of the PK and RPD or the Chinese copies the Type 56 LMG(RPD) and Type 80(PK)?Dragunovs as well are they Russian or Chinese in origin?


 
I think we do use RPD, and dragunov is only with SSG i think. The Infantry use the M series and G-3 with a scope comes in handy as well.


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## TaimiKhan

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Taimi have u seen the new SMG(AK variant) issued to PA soldiers? in the brownish color,side foldable stock.... tht is made by POF...
> Here:
> 
> 
> TT,makarovs,vikings,ruggers and walthers are also being used by FC....



Yups, have even fired it.

This is the Chinese Type 56-2 assault rifle with side-folding stock and yeah being manufactured at POF. And they have started to manufacture in numbers as i have started to see a lot of them out there. It means this is gonna be the preferred weapon in coming years and would be the main weapon in the COIN operations.


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## TaimiKhan

muse said:


> So this far, the specs (rough) are a Rugged simple system given the climatic and altitude variations, must fire the 7.62, economic to manufacture - why not partner with Turkiye on the 417 and in this way reduce costs for both?
> 
> Can we also discuss sights, especially day and night laser - what kinds of specs would the army want ?



Sir, there is something going on behind the scenes, but its slow. May be in few months time we hear or see something. For now the financial position is tight, so a change of assault weapon may not be on the priority list. 

But something on the basis of HK417 may be on the table. 

And yeah as per XYON, PA is preferring the 7.62*39mm caliber for the future. This weapon AK47 works in nearly every terrain of Pakistan without any major problems or the ones which we face in case of G3s.


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## TaimiKhan

saumyasupratik said:


> PA SSG are also equipped with the Steyr M9-A1's as there standard issue sidearm.
> 
> 
> By Russian version of AK-47 you mean the stamped receiver AKM or the original milled receiver AK-47?AK-103's are also used I believe?
> 
> What about PKM's and RPD's?Does the PA use the original Russian versions of the PK and RPD or the Chinese copies the Type 56 LMG(RPD) and Type 80(PK)?Dragunovs as well are they Russian or Chinese in origin?


 
As said, SSG guys are issued or are using different pistols as side arms, some use Glocks, Steyrs are there also, seen the Russian Baikal MP-446 with some also. Anything in the 9mm caliber. 

Regular PA soldiers are issued the Type 56 assault rifle with stamped steel receiver and recently they have started getting the Type-52-2 ones as shown in the above pic. These 2 are the ones in service with the normal PA soldiers, while SSG guys have Chinese, Russian both in service. 

I have seen the RPDs more in service, compared to the PKMs (which may be in a very less quantity or may not be even there), RPDs are for sure in service, and again both Russian & Chinese may be in service. But these are just with the SSG guys, not with normal infantry troops, plus the para-military forces and reserve police forces in KPK use these ones, Chinese mostly and captured ones too. Draganovs are in service with FC mostly and PA is using in small numbers the captured ones from the militants.


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## TaimiKhan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *@ TaimiKhan*
> do you think that AK-47 will be a good option. its true that this caliber matches the preference of PA with 7.62mm rounds but its accuracy is something that can easily be termed as poor.
> if at all, PA does finalize the AK series, they must go for variant with some accuracy.
> i think that after a successful experience with H&K PA must look into more options from this supplier.
> we do need a gun that can fire repeat automatic rounds and also single shots (as per requirement), short burst mode of 3 rounds will be a nice addition and bonus.
> 
> why don't POF try and develop something of there own that can meet all the PA requirement. they take Billions in funds and must at least put up a successful show in this regard.
> 
> regards!



The accuracy issue is due to the gun, not due to the bullet. AK47s are rough and tough & was designed to be made in bulk with low cost and simple design features and due to that reason its accuracy was sacrificed. But the new AK-100 series are good ones, they have have redesigned and made more lethal. 7.62*39mm is a very deadly round and in a good gun, it has good range and kill power. 

I say,we team up with the Turks and design the HK417 series with the 7.62*39mm caliber, would be an awesome combination. 

And as for your comments on POF and its inability to design something, well what to say, you yourself have hit the bulls eye, they should have developed something long ago, but when you run organization in such way, they become ineffective and wastage of resources.


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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir, there is something going on behind the scenes, but its slow. May be in few months time we hear or see something. For now the financial position is tight, so a change of assault weapon may not be on the priority list.
> 
> But something on the basis of HK417 may be on the table.
> 
> And yeah as per XYON, PA is preferring the 7.62*39mm caliber for the future. This weapon AK47 works in nearly every terrain of Pakistan without any major problems or the ones which we face in case of G3s.



The Turkish Mehmetkic could also be a good option. AK is not really wide used as the Chines Types.


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## untitled

Why cant we switch to the Chinese 5.8x42mm_DBP87 calibre ?


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## TaimiKhan

varigeo said:


> why cant we switch to the Chinese 5.8x42mm_DBP87 calibre ?



We have infrastructure to manufacture 7.62*39mm, 7.62*51mm, 5.56*45mm & 9mm caliber ammunition, bringing in another caliber round would be huge costs incurring, plus we have millions of ammo of the existing rounds. 

Looking at our finances and resources, changing rifle and the round would be a huge task consisting of money and time. 

7.62*39mm is a good round, all we need is a good gun.

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## untitled

Maybe we can re chamber the Chinese QBZ-95 for the 7.62 x 39 round. It is a new gun.






And it already available for the 5.56 x 45 round as the QBZ-97

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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

how reliable is the qbz 95?


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## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> The accuracy issue is due to the gun, not due to the bullet. AK47s are rough and tough & was designed to be made in bulk with low cost and simple design features and due to that reason its accuracy was sacrificed. But the new AK-100 series are good ones, they have have redesigned and made more lethal. 7.62*39mm is a very deadly round and in a good gun, it has good range and kill power.
> 
> I say,we team up with the Turks and design the HK417 series with the 7.62*39mm caliber, would be an awesome combination.
> .


sorry, i think there is some confusion. i am not saying that 7.62 is more accurate!!
obviously it is all about the gun!
i also raised the same point that if PA is to go for AK series, they must go for some new guns, as you suggested, AK100. *(AK-103)*







> And as for your comments on POF and its inability to design something, well what to say, you yourself have hit the bulls eye, they should have developed something long ago, but when you run organization in such way, they become ineffective and wastage of resources


hmm, actually i live next to POF. have studied all my school and college life in POF and have some classmates working there. i always get pi55ed off when i see them spending money on useless projects and what bothers more is that i know they are capable of doing a lot more good stuff. the POF eye, G3S and lots of other stuff is a good example. however, the thinking and approach need to be corrected.
last financial year, they spent roughly 3 million rupees on getting solar panels on there street light. take my words, it wont have effected a bit if 50% of them were removed at all, save energy, save 3 million and do something better![



TaimiKhan said:


> We have infrastructure to manufacture 7.62*39mm, 7.62*51mm, 5.56*45mm & 9mm caliber ammunition, bringing in another caliber round would be huge costs incurring, plus we have millions of ammo of the existing rounds.
> 
> Looking at our finances and resources, changing rifle and the round would be a huge task consisting of money and time.
> 
> 7.62*39mm is a good round, all we need is a good gun.



not only the change in caliber ask for huge spending in term of developing infra structure for ammo manufacturing but also the 5.8 x 42mm seriously lack fire power. something disclosed in Afghan war of US!


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## TaimiKhan

*@arsalan, 

not only the change in caliber ask for huge spending in term of developing infra structure for ammo manufacturing but also the 5.8 x 42mm seriously lack fire power. something disclosed in Afghan war of US!*

US standard is 5.56*45mm, while the 5.8*42mm is the Chinese new standard caliber which has replaced their older 7.62*39mm caliber and Chinese claim that their 5.8*42mm round is superior to the NATO/US 5.56*45mm bullet.


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## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> *@arsalan,
> 
> not only the change in caliber ask for huge spending in term of developing infra structure for ammo manufacturing but also the 5.8 x 42mm seriously lack fire power. something disclosed in Afghan war of US!*
> 
> US standard is 5.56*45mm, while the 5.8*42mm is the Chinese new standard caliber which has replaced their older 7.62*39mm caliber and Chinese claim that their 5.8*42mm round is superior to the NATO/US 5.56*45mm bullet.



compare it with the G-3 7.62, and you will know what i am saying.
the momentum is the thing that these calibers lack when compared to the 7.62. the weight of this Chinese 5.8x42mm ammo is round about the same as the US 5.56 x 45mm so that wont make a huge difference.

i dont think it will be feasible for PA to change the caliber from the standard 7.62,if, the do go for a change of gun at all!


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## wild peace

arsalanaslam123 said:


> compare it with the G-3 7.62, and you will know what i am saying.
> the momentum is the thing that these calibers lack when compared to the 7.62. the weight of this Chinese 5.8x42mm ammo is round about the same as the US 5.56 x 45mm so that wont make a huge difference.
> 
> i dont think it will be feasible for PA to change the caliber from the standard 7.62,if, the do go for a change of gun at all!




I always in afavour of 7.62 caliber so please try the below idea for changing whole of our lot with out many structural changes ,


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## DARKY

TaimiKhan said:


> We have infrastructure to manufacture 7.62*39mm, 7.62*51mm, 5.56*45mm & 9mm caliber ammunition, bringing in another caliber round would be huge costs incurring, plus we have *millions of ammo of the existing rounds*.
> 
> Looking at our finances and resources, changing rifle and the round would be a huge task consisting of money and time.
> 
> 7.62*39mm is a good round, all we need is a good gun.



Those millions of ammo of existing rounds can be given to Policing agencies and Paramilitary seeing the current situation of internal security there in Pakistan those old rounds can find a good use.

A similar thing was done with Indian 7.62x51mm rounds.......the police uses them now.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------




varigeo said:


> Maybe we can re chamber the Chinese QBZ-95 for the 7.62 x 39 round. It is a new gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it already available for the 5.56 x 45 round as the QBZ-97



As reliable as M-16.


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## TaimiKhan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> compare it with the G-3 7.62, and you will know what i am saying.
> the momentum is the thing that these calibers lack when compared to the 7.62. the weight of this Chinese 5.8x42mm ammo is round about the same as the US 5.56 x 45mm so that wont make a huge difference.
> 
> i dont think it will be feasible for PA to change the caliber from the standard 7.62,if, the do go for a change of gun at all!



There is no doubt about the deadliness of the 7.62 NATO round, but it has its limitations also, due to the weight of the round, soldiers can not take as much ammo as a lighter weight ammo can be taken, then you have the recoil problem, very heavy recoil they generate which makes auto fire not positive yielding and in even single shot state,you can not keep firing constantly compared to how we see 5.56 fire in single shots. 

And in CQB, the 7.62 is not liked,that is why you see lot of soldiers in tribal operations carrying and preferring the 7.62*39mm AK47s. They are lighter ammo, 30 round magazine, has the kill power, recoil is controllable and loved by everyone. Simple and deadly weapon AK47s and so are its round. 

One of the reason tht we may see something in between the 5.56 NATO & 7.62 NATO. US Special Operations Command has already started looking at the 6.8*43mm Remington SPC round and may be the future US assault rifle is designed with this caliber in mind. It is lighter compared to 7.62 & deadly and recoil of the weapon is controllable. 

6.8 mm Remington SPC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adaptive Combat Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So, i say, we get a more accurate firing weapon platform, something reliable, effective & simple, and mate it with the 7.62*39mm round or even we can look at something like the 6.8mm round too.

My choice is HK416/417 platform as it comes in many versions, you can have a CQB weapon, an assault rifle as well as a sniper rifle from one gun, mate it with a good round and you have a deadly weapon system.


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## TaimiKhan

DARKY said:


> Those millions of ammo of existing rounds can be given to Policing agencies and Paramilitary seeing the current situation of internal security there in Pakistan those old rounds can find a good use.
> 
> A similar thing was done with Indian 7.62x51mm rounds.......the police uses them now.




Its a very cost intensive adventure to change the weapon firing platform as well as the ammo for it. 

Giving it to police or para military forces is not an easy task nor are they they gonna be able to fire all these rounds. Plus the commonality feature of having one round and one weapon platform would be lost, logistical nightmare it would create. 

Simple answer is, mate something new with the 7.62*39mm round and make it a standard among the armed forces, para military forces as well a police, it will reduce costs and logistical problems.


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## untitled

I think we still have plenty of ammo left over for the M1 Garand rifle.


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## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> There is no doubt about the deadliness of the 7.62 NATO round, but it has its limitations also, due to the weight of the round, soldiers can not take as much ammo as a lighter weight ammo can be taken, then you have the recoil problem, very heavy recoil they generate which makes auto fire not positive yielding and in even single shot state,you can not keep firing constantly compared to how we see 5.56 fire in single shots.
> 
> And in CQB, the 7.62 is not liked,that is why you see lot of soldiers in tribal operations carrying and preferring the 7.62*39mm AK47s. They are lighter ammo, 30 round magazine, has the kill power, recoil is controllable and loved by everyone. Simple and deadly weapon AK47s and so are its round.
> 
> One of the reason tht we may see something in between the 5.56 NATO & 7.62 NATO. US Special Operations Command has already started looking at the 6.8*43mm Remington SPC round and may be the future US assault rifle is designed with this caliber in mind. It is lighter compared to 7.62 & deadly and recoil of the weapon is controllable.
> 
> 6.8 mm Remington SPC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Adaptive Combat Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> So, i say, we get a more accurate firing weapon platform, something reliable, effective & simple, and mate it with the 7.62*39mm round or even we can look at something like the 6.8mm round too.
> 
> My choice is HK416/417 platform as it comes in many versions, you can have a CQB weapon, an assault rifle as well as a sniper rifle from one gun, mate it with a good round and you have a deadly weapon system.



well, you yourself have supported what i am stating!

despite all the pros and cons of the 7.62, it seems that it have positives then negatives. better punch, no upgradaion required etc
i guess we are both advocating the same platform the HK471 but with different statements . .


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## TaimiKhan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well, you yourself have supported what i am stating!
> 
> despite all the pros and cons of the 7.62, it seems that it have positives then negatives. better punch, no upgradaion required etc
> i guess we are both advocating the same platform the HK471 but with different statements . .



Nops buddy, i am vouching for the Russian 7.62*39mm caliber to be mated with a new rifle, not the NATO 7.62*51mm round. 

HK-417 is the 7.62*51mm caliber, which again gives us a 20 round magazine compared to what others hold, that is the 30 round. It has again high recoil. 

So, why not 7.62*39mm mated with a HK-417 design. Keep the 7.62*51mm for sniper rifle and may be a SAW system like the M249.


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## DARKY

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well, you yourself have supported what i am stating!
> 
> despite all the pros and cons of the 7.62, it seems that it have positives then negatives. better punch, no upgradaion required etc
> i guess we are both advocating the same platform the HK471 but with different statements . .



Have you fired a 7.62mm NATO from an assault rifle ??...... I have and take my word If you are new you'll not forget the first night after that training where they make you fire while standing...... forget automating firing of a G3...... not a single round will hit a target after 3-4 rounds in automatic fire..... and it would be hard time controlling the muzzle rise..... If you are targeting a far off target. I have seen the video of a well built Pakistani soldier firing a G3 in automatic mode and it could be clearly seen he could not fire more than 3-4 round in any of his attempts...... on top of that he had a hard time controling the mussle rise as he was moving on his foot..... If there any professional around here they could explain you better about the flaws the automatic fire of 7.62x51mm presents in such situations...... how can a solder fire accurately enough while on charge with his G3.... while he can't do that in simple motion...... not to mention that in such situations accurate automatic fire is highly important...... and G3 jams in low temperatures below 5 degrees frequently after firing 5-6 rounds in semi-automatic mode even.


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## DARKY

TaimiKhan said:


> Its a very cost intensive adventure to change the weapon firing platform as well as the ammo for it.
> 
> Giving it to police or para military forces is not an easy task nor are they they gonna be able to fire all these rounds. Plus the commonality feature of having one round and one weapon platform would be lost, logistical nightmare it would create.
> 
> Simple answer is, mate something new with the 7.62*39mm round and make it a standard among the armed forces, para military forces as well a police, it will reduce costs and logistical problems.


 
What I was trying to say was leaving 7.62x51mm assault rifles to the police and Paramilitary to use If there is a need to change the rounds..... the paramilitaries like Rangers can do fine with such a rifle guarding border areas aswell as in anti insurgency operations in Countryside areas.

India switched to 5.56mm during Kargil war there were problems faced but it was done effectively, not to mention that the economy was on the verge of financially being bankrupted at those times.
So I don't see the excuse why can't Pakistan atleast on economical terms during peace times.

7.62x39mm was made to make the automatic firing of 7.62mm rounds comfortable but that shorter bullet doesn't spin much inside a 14" barrel hence aerodynamically unstable in a long range flight If I am not wrong it spins 360degrees in every 9'' hence it tumbles and loses the power of cover penetration and the penetration of protective material/bullet proof jackets..... a steel tip bullet would do but that would wear off the grooves more quickly hence frequent chaining required for accurate enough firing at longer ranges..... plus the spin problem would always remain.

There has been some reason that Russians brought AK-74 in their inventory and Chinese replaced their Type 56 rifles.

I won't advocate any round here but every aspect must be looked upon carefully before suggesting any big change.

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## Last Hope

*Alright guy. As I said. Pakistan is changing it and I am the source.
*

Its the same caliber, for two reasons.
*
1)The stock of bullets and magazines we have, what will do about it?
2) 7.62 is Instant kill.*


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## asad71

1. Every Poor Bloody Infantryman (PBI) curses the load he carries after a while. So everyone is looking for something light.

2. As stated above 7.62 is instant kill. This is good for COIN ops. A heavier bullet also is gets less deflection travelling through plants, foliage, rain, snow or wind. 

3. Paratroopers or SF prefer the lighter 5.68. But they too would need the heavier 7.62 on certain occasions.


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## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> Nops buddy, i am vouching for the Russian 7.62*39mm caliber to be mated with a new rifle, not the NATO 7.62*51mm round.
> 
> HK-417 is the 7.62*51mm caliber, which again gives us a 20 round magazine compared to what others hold, that is the 30 round. It has again high recoil.
> 
> So, why not 7.62*39mm mated with a HK-417 design. Keep the 7.62*51mm for sniper rifle and may be a SAW system like the M249.


all right, now i got your point, tell you what, i find it to be a very interesting one!!!
you are asking to mate different rounds/calibers to create a hybrid with optimum fire power, lesser recoil, accuracy etc



DARKY said:


> Have you fired a 7.62mm NATO from an assault rifle? ?



have fired the Pakistan Army G-3 on a few occasions with army training exercises. the recoil is heavy.
apart from that, i think the G-3 is a very very reliable rifle and have served good for PA. i don&#8217;t think there are any problems with jamming or else that are causing PA to look out for a change!


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## DARKY

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i don&#8217;t think there are any problems with jamming or else that are causing PA to look out for a change!



I had seen a few video on You tube where Pakistani Soldiers from NLI which participated in Kargil accused of G3 being jammed only after 5-6 rounds of semi-automatic fire on a common basis..... now the war was fought around May-June time hence the temperature would be around 10-6 degree Celsius in day and 4-0/-2 during night hence the rifle jams regularly at cold temperature..... May be that is the reason G3s are not seen in good numbers at counter insurgency and anti-terrorist operations in SWAT and FATA regions.


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## Chogy

Fully Automatic fire from an assault rifle is very over-rated. That is what a squad light machine gun is for. The best method is aimed semi-automatic fire from a well-trained soldier. The U.S. in fact has removed the FULL AUTO poistion on the M-4 and replaced it with BURST. Each trigger pull delivers a 3 round burst before re-setting.

Full auto empties a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds.

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## blain2

G-3 is rarely fired in full auto mode in the PA due to two reasons. One is that it is too unstable in full auto due to the massive recoil and secondly, the resulting lack of accuracy means that it is a sheer waste of rounds which is a big no-no.

As far as the use of G-3 in cold weather is concerned, yes it is prone to jamming (but in extreme cold) and thus most of the troops stationed there up north use the Type 56 variants. Not that Type-56 variant cannot jam, but it is more rugged (having stated that, I must say that even with Type-56, the action and moving components have to be kept covered when possible because at least up at Siachen altitude, even the lubricants freeze).

The G-3 has been used extensively in the fight against the Taliban and at the ranges the firefights are happening and the massive 7.62 round used with the range afforded by this battlefield rifle, it has done its job well. The composition at the section/platoon level includes most members with the G-3 and some with the SMG (Type-56). Officers can carry what they like so you will see variation there.


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## blain2

In my own view, there will never be a perfect answer or a weapon for use within the PA. Most Armies make do with what they have as in some roles it would do just fine, in others, you make do. PA's selection of an individual weapon is no different.

The 5.56 vs. 7.62 debate has been going on for sometime now in the Army (at least for the past 15 years). I think the future will see a mix of both heavier and lighter calibers just because of the need (Force on force vs. COIN ops) to use the same troops and equipment for all roles.


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## Jango

Chogy said:


> Fully Automatic fire from an assault rifle is very over-rated. That is what a squad light machine gun is for. The best method is aimed semi-automatic fire from a well-trained soldier. The U.S. in fact has removed the FULL AUTO poistion on the M-4 and replaced it with BURST. Each trigger pull delivers a 3 round burst before re-setting.
> 
> Full auto empties a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds.



Exactly. A person now going on full automatic is regarded as a goon and a madman. Accuracy and lethality with the Semi-auto mode. Labelled as E in Pak Army guns.

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## Zabaniyah

I know I am a noob in firearms, but isn't the 5.56 NATO round more accurate?


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## blain2

Zabanya said:


> I know I am a noob in firearms, but isn't the 5.56 NATO round more accurate?



Accuracy is not just the function of the round itself. There are multiple factors involved in the accuracy. You need a well manufactured round, but more so than that, the rifle itself has a lot to do with this.

I am sure its mentioned on this thread, but 5.56 round usually is fired from newer weapons that afford greater velocity when a round is fired. Secondly, other logistical reasons and load bearing considerations have paved the way for the wider acceptance of 5.56mm round in the past 10 years or so.

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## Jango

For accuracy other conditions also come into play if the range exceeds a certain distance. Windspeed, humidity , atmospherer all play there part when range is exceeded from a certain point. And if you go to 1000 meters, then the Coriolis effect, rotation of the earth, gravity, and advanced applied ballistics come into the scenario. But the advanced is only for sniping.

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## DARKY

Chogy said:


> Fully Automatic fire from an assault rifle is very over-rated. That is what a squad light machine gun is for. The best method is aimed semi-automatic fire from a well-trained soldier. The U.S. in fact has removed the FULL AUTO poistion on the M-4 and replaced it with BURST. Each trigger pull delivers a 3 round burst before re-setting.
> 
> Full auto empties a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds.



Similar switch is also available of other standard issue assault rifles like INSAS.... I have fired 3-round burst while the camp I had with Army it allows you the recovery time and 3 rounds of 5.56x45mm is enough to kill a well built person even if he is high on some Opium....... It depends on the doctrine which the army follows while the Russians prefer automatic modes the Americans prefer 3 round burst on their assault rifles..... depending on logistics, troops, environment, geography, climate etc....

The future rifles would have every thing on the plate.... semi-auto, 3 round burst, full auto.... aswell as multicalliber firing capabilities... and most of the future plans for the armies world wide have some or the other multicalliber rifle programs for their future troops.


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## Jango

DARKY said:


> Similar switch is also available of other standard issue assault rifles like INSAS.... I have fired 3-round burst while the camp I had with Army it allows you the recovery time and 3 rounds of 5.56x45mm is enough to kill a well built person even if he is high on some Opium....... It depends on the doctrine which the army follows while the Russians prefer automatic modes the Americans prefer 3 round burst on their assault rifles..... depending on logistics, troops, environment, geography, climate etc....
> 
> The future rifles would have every thing on the plate.... semi-auto, 3 round burst, full auto.... aswell as multicalliber firing capabilities... and most of the future plans for the armies world wide have some or the other multicalliber rifle programs for their future troops.



Rifles have S for safety, E for semi automatic, and F for fully automatic. Most soldiers prefer the E position. Allows for better accuracy, less bullet wastage , and gets the target killed easily.


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## DADU

Hell /-) even the AK is better than crap G3 . Thats why most personnel prefer it instead of G3.
Its better suited for mountainous terrain. Unless Turkey can help with NATO equipment
M4 , M16 dont think we can afford or Americanos will allow selling it in large numbers.

My cuz frequently complains of G3 constant jamming and inter-locks and some soldiers in his unit even use captured weapons from the terrorists because they better in range and modifications.


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## DARKY

nuclearpak said:


> Rifles have S for safety, E for semi automatic, and F for fully automatic. Most soldiers prefer the E position. Allows for better accuracy, less bullet wastage , and gets the target killed easily.



The S-is for safety
The R-is for semiautomatic
The B-is for 3 round burst
In some rifles A is also there for Automatic in place of B.


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## Jango

DARKY said:


> The S-is for safety
> The R-is for semiautomatic
> The B-is for 3 round burst
> In some rifles A is also there for Automatic in place of B.



It may vary rifle to rifle. What is saw on the G-3 was the one i told.


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## zulfiqar74

very sorry to say,its very hard to hire experts from abroad as you have to pay them second they will not make their cut of million of RS in their back pocket so they scrap the idea,


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## wild peace

Dear Guys just look this above video..they used different caliber rods in same gun casing .In my point of view it is help full .


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## Chogy

^^ True, the original AR-15 platform has been refined to allow for a huge number of calibers, including shotgun... much like the AK system.


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## Chogy

^^ True, the original AR-15 platform has been refined to allow for a huge number of calibers, including shotgun... much like the AK system.


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## Penguin

> The key reason of high popularity of the G3 is that it is much simpler and cheaper to manufacture,than its major contemporary rivals - Belgian FN FAL and US M14. In general, the HK G3 rifle can be described as one of the best7.62mm NATO battle / assault rifles - reliable, versatile, controllable,non-expensive and, finally, very popular.


Modern Firearms - HK G3


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## TheIncredible

OK guys, Im new to the game....

1. I think if possible the G3 needs to be replaced and if not... then for gods sake shorten the damn thing at least. It is one of the heaviest and rifles in any professional army. Most armies do what is possible to make it easier on there troops... since, you know. THERE FIGHTING INTENSE BATTLES!!!!!!!!! Shorter means less cost of production, more efficient in battle, and most importantly more lighty.. all the pros of the rifle are still intact but you greatly decrease the cons

2. MP5 is now outdated... it uses 9mm bullets... thats not even going to pierce 18th century body armour.... these ones must be replaced to modified greatly.

3. From what i understand the POF PK-7 is the answer to these two problems above.... But what I want to know now is WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE POF-PK 7/8/10 project... WHY HAS IT STALLED.. there is a war going on that isnt fading out any time soon I think the army needs to be a little more vocal in this regard.

4. Why oh why have we returned to the Type-56.... i hate this... whether its a good gun or not... most professional armies do not use it anymore.... either have it upgraded (and painted all black cause the wood finish makes my blood boil) atleast check out the new vairants of the AK.... those are slick looking guns that makes the army look professional... AND YES, i realise that pakistan is the best army in the world as of 2010 (Cambrian patrol) congrats to that, you are the best of the best... now you just need to LOOK like it in my book.... 


your thoughts guys...


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## TheIncredible

OHH AND MOST IMPORTANT... ARE POF GUNS ACTUALLY COMING OR IS JUST TALK... LIKE THE END OF LOAD SHEDDING IN PAKISTAN?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

TheIncredible said:


> OK guys, Im new to the game....
> 
> 1. I think if possible the G3 needs to be replaced and if not... then for gods sake shorten the damn thing at least. It is one of the heaviest and rifles in any professional army. Most armies do what is possible to make it easier on there troops... since, you know. THERE FIGHTING INTENSE BATTLES!!!!!!!!! Shorter means less cost of production, more efficient in battle, and most importantly more lighty.. all the pros of the rifle are still intact but you greatly decrease the cons
> 
> 2. MP5 is now outdated... it uses 9mm bullets... thats not even going to pierce 18th century body armour.... these ones must be replaced to modified greatly.
> 
> 3. From what i understand the POF PK-7 is the answer to these two problems above.... But what I want to know now is WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE POF-PK 7/8/10 project... WHY HAS IT STALLED.. there is a war going on that isnt fading out any time soon I think the army needs to be a little more vocal in this regard.
> 
> 4. Why oh why have we returned to the Type-56.... i hate this... whether its a good gun or not... most professional armies do not use it anymore.... either have it upgraded (and painted all black cause the wood finish makes my blood boil) atleast check out the new vairants of the AK.... those are slick looking guns that makes the army look professional... AND YES, i realise that pakistan is the best army in the world as of 2010 (Cambrian patrol) congrats to that, you are the best of the best... now you just need to LOOK like it in my book....
> 
> 
> your thoughts guys...


Ans1 first shortning the thing up in no solution you can add a folding stock which costs more but you cant shorten the barral because 1 accuracy goes down 2 this is a battle rifel not a short cqb or assault rifel.
Ans2 MP5s r being replaced with POF type 56 in the field and 9mm is replaced with 7.62x39 so happy? but for the record MP5 is a dam gud weapon and with the lack of Bullet ristant vests the SMG did wonders in its ful auto mode.
Ans3 AFAIK PK series RIFLES will not go in production rather than that HK417 or a turkish MEMATIC may come in to service.
Ans4 Type 56 is not what tu think of as a chinese copy of AK47 but its modified in POF and there is a further upgrade planned for next year wich involves polymer insted of wood and a major modification in the barral (i need to confirm first befor i talk abt the barrel.)if you remember the orignal designe of g3 had wood that came with TOT but then POF took the new designe of plastic grip stock etc same is planned for t56


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## TheIncredible

still.. i rather see smaller rifles. for the soldiers, i ithnk it would be better.


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## TheIncredible

i would like some more info on type 56 please sir G... what are your sources?? they really need to get rid of that ugly wood finsih...


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## S-A-B-E-R->

TheIncredible said:


> still.. i rather see smaller rifles. for the soldiers, i ithnk it would be better.


yes smaller rifals r gud in BF but remember if ur bullet cant reach the enemy first or kill him in first hit than the prows of a short weapon r over shadowed by cons.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

TheIncredible said:


> i would like some more info on type 56 please sir G... what are your sources?? they really need to get rid of that ugly wood finsih...


T 56 is a gud rifel the barral is more sturdy than chinese verson and rate of fire is a little hi just by a few bullets per min but the real change is the stock which is way better than the usual wooden one because not only it folds alst it is angularly parallel to the entire mechanism and thus the blow back creates a motion prependicular to the shoulder than the lean wooden stock which made the angular blow back so it is much better.


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## TheIncredible

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> T 56 is a gud rifel the barral is more sturdy than chinese verson and rate of fire is a little hi just by a few bullets per min but the real change is the stock which is way better than the usual wooden one because not only it folds alst it is angularly parallel to the entire mechanism and thus the blow back creates a motion prependicular to the shoulder than the lean wooden stock which made the angular blow back so it is much better.




Well when are the polymer upgraded non wooden type 56 go into production and when will it be seen with our troops on the front lines???


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## S-A-B-E-R->

nothing is concreat now days with the bad economy but yes plans r there and if a new system is not selected than these upgrades wil go in to action.


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## Ark-Angel

TaimiKhan said:


> Well then what are they waiting for.
> 
> PA has already started getting the POF made AK-47s with the folding stock. Kind of Type-56C variant of the Chinese.



But it is heavier than the previous models/Type-56 with wood butt. (whatever u call it  )


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## Gofer

Any bullpup rifle is better than g3. The compact size allows for easier carrying and greater maneuverability


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## untitled

Gofer said:


> Any bullpup rifle is better than g3. The compact size allows for easier carrying and greater maneuverability


 
Even bullpups firing 9 mm ?

Bull pups are discriminatory against left-handers .... Empty cases are ejected in the face... Exception to that are few such as the 


FN-2000







P-90

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## khanz4996

AK47 is the best and pakistan land forces has it and manufacture it thats the min stay weapon of pakistan no jamming thats the best it can give u m16 and m4a4 and that gets jammed whuch can kill


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## Gofer

Considering the percentage of right handers in the world. Even more in a smaller sample like the pakistan army, bullpup rifles advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Besides why are pakistanis so afraid to change for the better?


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## Mosamania

HK417 is a very good choice for PA.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

varigeo said:


> Even bullpups firing 9 mm ?
> 
> Bull pups are discriminatory against left-handers .... Empty cases are ejected in the face... Exception to that are few such as the
> 
> 
> FN-2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P-90


You just contridicted ur own statement by posting Fn 2000 . its a forward shell ejection sys tem but yes in general the idea is same Bullpup is not a gud idea
1 low reaction time 
2 mor complicated mechanism hard to work with on battle field

---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------




farzansaeedkhan said:


> But it is heavier than the previous models/Type-56 with wood butt. (whatever u call it  )


 how so it was built as an upgrade to the Type 56 the folding stock is not the only change we made actually a designe upgrade wase taken from AK 103 which reduces the snake vibrations and also the firing mechanism was tweaked so far as i have been told.


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## Ark-Angel

> how so it was built as an upgrade to the Type 56 the folding stock is not the only change we made actually a designe upgrade wase taken from AK 103 which reduces the snake vibrations and also the firing mechanism was tweaked so far as i have been told.



May be you are rite but heavy weapon not only means more fatigue but also slow reaction time....


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## untitled

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> You just contridicted ur own statement by posting Fn 2000 . i




That is why I posted it to show only few modern bullpup designs cater for lefthanders


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## S-A-B-E-R->

varigeo said:


> That is why I posted it to show only few modern bullpup designs cater for lefthanders


oh ok my bad

---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 PM ----------




varigeo said:


> That is why I posted it to show only few modern bullpup designs cater for lefthanders


oh ok my bad


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## asad71

An infantry soldier of PA comes from the village mostly. To him it will take some time to get used to the Bullpup, which looks like a water carrier for kids going to school. Bayonet is another issue.


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## zshan

peshawar said:


> 5.56 means the person you hit aint going to be down after getting hit
> its stopping power is lowers
> pakistan army is fighting a very determined enemy
> if if injured he is going to fight back till death
> which means 5.56 aint the best caliber which means 7.62 is better
> BESIDE USA AND NATO IS GOING TO SHIFT TOWARDS 6.8MM cause 5.56 AINT GOOD ENOUGH
> beside M4 has a serious jamming proble


 
Excuse ME,

Once you go Colt M4, you never go back to other CQB carbine,
I shot more then 5000 rounds and not a single jam, its 4500$ 
well worth.
Second, it depend on the bullet, as a range/target shooter i found
JHP is BETTER the FMJ to do MORE damage and last but not least
there are people you cant down even you hit with 7.62 with FMJ
in compare to NATO SHP or FMJHP, please live in reality instead of
reading/pasting other posts.

Regards,
Zshan Durrani.


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## Thorough Pro

Gofer said:


> Any bullpup rifle is better than g3. The compact size allows for easier carrying and greater maneuverability




Bullpups are for CQB / rapid assault. For infantry you need long range heavy caliber rifles to inflict crippling injuries or causing death. Any rifle which can fire a high velocity bullet which tumbles on striking the body causes heavy internal damage and bleeding, like 222but they are ineffective against body armour, heavier steel core ammo is preferable to defeat body armour. 
Pak should design their own caliber suitable for our environmet, lighter to enable more rounds for same weight yet effective in inflicting body damage and should be armour piercing too.

---------- Post added at 09:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------




zshan said:


> Excuse ME,
> 
> Once you go Colt M4, you never go back to other CQB carbine,
> I shot more then 5000 rounds and not a single jam, its 4500$
> well worth.
> Second, it depend on the bullet, as a range/target shooter i found
> JHP is BETTER the FMJ to do MORE damage and last but not least
> there are people you cant down even you hit with 7.62 with FMJ
> in compare to NATO SHP or FMJHP, please live in reality instead of
> reading/pasting other posts.
> 
> Regards,
> Zshan Durrani.





only on a shooting range, not in a battle field. M4 and its variants are prone to jamming more than any other assault rifle


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## untitled

zshan said:


> Excuse ME,
> 
> Once you go Colt M4, you never go back to other CQB carbine,
> I shot more then 5000 rounds and not a single jam, its 4500$
> well worth.



There is difference between firing the weapon at a range and battle conditions

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## Zarvan

Modern Firearms - HK 416
Modern Firearms - HK 417
Pakistan Should choose one of these weapons when ever we have money because I know after this post many will write about money issue


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## niaz

Don&#8217;t know why everyone would like Pak Army to opt for HK16 or HK17 or any other rifle for that matter. A new rifle would cost at least $1000 to make; reequipping the entire army would cost at least $500-million at the very least. Changing the calibre down to 5.56 would raise the total cost to nearly $1-billion.

AK47 is cheap to make, is very sturdy and needs very little training to operate and maintain. Therefore it is the ideal infantry weapon. G3 has better range and a bigger kick; and also we are already making it. Both the guns are good weapons. 

If anyone cares to read the discussion between 7.62 & 5.56 mm NATO rounds; one will find opinions equally divided. As a country perpetually short on funds, don&#8217;t see the reason for spending vast sums of money when net effect on the battlefield and fighting ability would minor. 

Must we change for the sake of change? Arguably AK47 along with younger sister AK74 (5.45 mm) are the best assault rifles ever. I would propose keeping the current mix of AK47 and G3 for the foreseeable future.

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## mjnaushad

niaz said:


> Don&#8217;t know why everyone would like Pak Army to opt for HK16 or HK17 or any other rifle for that matter. A new rifle would cost at least $1000 to make; reequipping the entire army would cost at least $500-million at the very least. Changing the calibre down to 5.56 would raise the total cost to nearly $1-billion.
> 
> AK47 is cheap to make, is very sturdy and needs very little training to operate and maintain. Therefore it is the ideal infantry weapon. G3 has better range and a bigger kick; and also we are already making it. Both the guns are good weapons.
> 
> If anyone cares to read the discussion between 7.62 & 5.56 mm NATO rounds; one will find opinions equally divided. As a country perpetually short on funds, don&#8217;t see the reason for spending vast sums of money when net effect on the battlefield and fighting ability would minor.
> 
> Must we change for the sake of change? Arguably AK47 along with younger sister AK74 (5.45 mm) are the best assault rifles ever. I would propose keeping the current mix of AK47 and G3 for the foreseeable future.



what will be the possible cost of upgrading our G3 and AKs with dot sights/reflex sight, aim point, etc


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## SEAL

mjnaushad said:


> what will be the possible cost of upgrading our G3 and AKs with dot sights/reflex sight, aim point, etc



30$ per gun or maybe more.


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## Chogy

alimukhtar said:


> roflz Americans are changing their M4s with AKs due to jamming..... roflz and you saying this hahaha....... be practical yar



Last time I checked the U.S. military is still using the M4 and M16A2.  99% of the bad reputation of the system was from bad early days in Vietnam, when the military changed the powder in the cartridge from clean stick to dirty ball. Since then, the system has matured to a reliable platform. Polls taken of troops returning from war have shown an overwhelming satisfaction with the Stoner platform.

There is a reason Russia switched from 7.62 to 5.45mm... those pesky Americans had the right idea.

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## Mazharrafiq

i am agree with pdf_shurtah

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## Last Hope

Chogy said:


> Last time I checked the U.S. military is still using the M4 and M16A2.  99% of the bad reputation of the system was from bad early days in Vietnam, when the military changed the powder in the cartridge from clean stick to dirty ball. Since then, the system has matured to a reliable platform. Polls taken of troops returning from war have shown an overwhelming satisfaction with the Stoner platform.
> 
> There is a reason Russia switched from 7.62 to 5.45mm... those pesky Americans had the right idea.



I rather use M4 than an AK.
And I agree with you.

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## Last Hope

niaz said:


> Don&#8217;t know why everyone would like Pak Army to opt for HK16 or HK17 or any other rifle for that matter. A new rifle would cost at least $1000 to make; reequipping the entire army would cost at least $500-million at the very least. Changing the calibre down to 5.56 would raise the total cost to nearly $1-billion.
> 
> AK47 is cheap to make, is very sturdy and needs very little training to operate and maintain. Therefore it is the ideal infantry weapon. G3 has better range and a bigger kick; and also we are already making it. Both the guns are good weapons.
> 
> If anyone cares to read the discussion between 7.62 & 5.56 mm NATO rounds; one will find opinions equally divided. As a country perpetually short on funds, don&#8217;t see the reason for spending vast sums of money when net effect on the battlefield and fighting ability would minor.
> 
> Must we change for the sake of change? Arguably AK47 along with younger sister AK74 (5.45 mm) are the best assault rifles ever. I would propose keeping the current mix of AK47 and G3 for the foreseeable future.



But sir, I have been assured that the talks are over and we have now finalized a new weapon as an alternative to G-3. 
We now can witness some soldiers using G36Cs on the western border and in Balochistan. 

Maybe the cost-benefit analysis proved it to be worth a change.


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## ahmed_naj

> But sir, I have been assured that the talks are over and we have now finalized a new weapon as an alternative to G-3.
> We now can witness some soldiers using G36Cs on the western border and in Balochistan.
> 
> Maybe the cost-benefit analysis proved it to be worth a change.



anymore info? the G36C is the variant with the shortest barrel length, even if PA was to procure the G36 it would look at the other variants.


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## untitled

The G-3 in service, Type 56 used in WoT and according to Last Hope induction of G-36. All these rifles. It can turn in to a logistics nightmare for ammo

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## Last Hope

ahmed_naj said:


> anymore info? the G36C is the variant with the shortest barrel length, even if PA was to procure the G36 it would look at the other variants.


Classified. Only insiders are supposed to know it yet. G36C is not the replacement.


pdf_shurtah said:


> The G-3 in service, Type 56 used in WoT and according to Last Hope induction of G-36. All these rifles. It can turn in to a logistics nightmare for ammo


We are changing the rifles keeping in mind the ammunition. 
G36C is not induced on full scale. Some FC use it for testing of the new weapon induction. More like asking for feedback.

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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

Chogy said:


> Last time I checked the U.S. military is still using the M4 and M16A2.  99% of the bad reputation of the system was from bad early days in Vietnam, when the military changed the powder in the cartridge from clean stick to dirty ball. Since then, the system has matured to a reliable platform. Polls taken of troops returning from war have shown an overwhelming satisfaction with the Stoner platform.
> 
> There is a reason Russia switched from 7.62 to 5.45mm... those pesky Americans had the right idea.


the ak47 is still much more reliable then any m16 and m4, you can dig an ak47 in the sand, come 5 years later and it will still work! there is a reason why the ak47 is much more successful then the m4 or m16. besides, the ak47 is faster, easier and more cheaply manufactured then a m16 or m4 which makes it more cost effective!


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

G3 is a excellent weapon why replace it?
it has great range and accuracy
it is very powerful and pretty reliable
all the negative things I can see about the rifle is its recoil and weight, but soldiers are trained for that kinda stuff. they aren't untrained wimps who complain about a guns kick or weight. 

But if the G3 is to be replaces then I suggest from my own point of view that we should switch to the HK 417 or maybe the newer AK models with increased range and accuracy


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## Desert Fox

Chogy said:


> There is a reason Russia switched from 7.62 to 5.45mm... those pesky Americans had the right idea.



Nothing beats American and European quality, though i would prefer American over European as well due to cost factor. Heck, even made in America boots are better than any you'll get from abroad, i knew people who've wore Timberlands all their lives and when they switched over to say Belleville boots they never even bothered looking at Timberlands again.

I bought a pair of these boots a few years ago and they are very comfortable, durable, water proof boots, and best of all they lasted a long time, they're great in winter.


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## niaz

Last Hope said:


> But sir, I have been assured that the talks are over and we have now finalized a new weapon as an alternative to G-3.
> We now can witness some soldiers using G36Cs on the western border and in Balochistan.
> 
> Maybe the cost-benefit analysis proved it to be worth a change.



I am surprized at the choice of G36C model. This is the short barrel version of the 5.56 mm G36 rifle. No doubt it would score well in an urnban closed range situation. Wonder how effective it would in a desert fight where long range would have an advantage. Suppose PA planners know what they are doing.


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## emotionless_teenage

one alternative is to do it like the turks

that is refurbishing and adding new add-on to the rifle.seems that optical sight (and thermal sight.albeit on a less frequent scale) is the norm


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## boris

niaz said:


> I am surprized at the choice of G36C model. This is the short barrel version of the 5.56 mm G36 rifle. No doubt it would score well in an urnban closed range situation. Wonder how effective it would in a desert fight where long range would have an advantage. Suppose PA planners know what they are doing.



British SAS has switched from MP5 to G36C for CQB.


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## Aamir Hussain

Both Timberland and Bellvile and btw McRae are American products. I use 8" high McRae's. They are really good boots after wearing Chocorans for ages.

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## Whazzup

I saw a lot of people praising the range of 7.62x51 but my ques is what good it is as your rifles only have iron sights and its really difficult to take down a target 300 m away and in a battle battle when target is shooting back its next to impossible.

As per the replacement thing I think its better for Pak to make a rifle of its own somee thing with a BL of 16inch so that the overall length can be reduce and have a firing options of 1 3round burst and full auto (burst will not be a prob as Pak is also using mp5a3) Or you guys should simply buy HK41.


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## BordoEnes

My personnal Options for a new Rifle for the Pakistani army would be

- Mehmetcik 2 (With same Calibre only more modern and more attachments)
- A Modified G-3 Specificly for Pakistani army
- A Modified AK Specificly for Pakistani army

I think a Modified G3 would make the biggest change of a new rifle for pakistan duo the long experience pakistan has with the rifle, And also this would be the cheapest way cause then the pakistani army doesnt have to modify trainings or structures in the army. I already saw a dosens of different types of Modified G-3s made by pakistan why dont you just pick one? 

Here for one the G3S:





But what i prefere is a mix of AK and G-3! The PTR-32 KF

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## Manticore

G27K: H&K & insiders suggest second standard rifle for German Army
(Assault rifle HK417k-Bw (7.62mm NATO) scoped and equipped with a silencer to run for the "G27k"-Project)

Recent reports showed that - even though no serious complaints have been filed so far - the army's G36 standard rifle is pushed to its limits during firefights in Afghanistan. Only a few hundred consecutive shots can heat up the barrel so much that the weapon's accuracy on a man-size target 300 meters away is reduced to one third. H&K and the German military even had to issue a warning soldiers should rather wait for the barrel to cool down to hand-warmth before firing more, prompting German news outlets such as DER SPIEGEL to scoff at the "please shoot less!" order. Now the company's Marc Roth ([1], [2]) and the Griephan Briefe suggest the military's interest in a second standard rifle, an unofficial competition that's so far been dominated by a short-barrelled HK417 going under the designation "G27k". The project arose from the competitive bidding for a designated marksman rifle - won by H&K's G3DMR and G28 - and the search of Germany's special forces and military police for a supplementary rifle to fill the gap between the G36 AR and the G28 DMR ("Project Support Weapon for Short Ranges" closely contested by the HK416, Schmeisser's AR15 and SAN Swiss Arms' SIG516). H&K as well as the troops on the ground however lobby for the broad reintroduction of the 7.62mm NATO bullet (which proved superior to the 5.56 in Afghanistan). The G27k could be issued to weapons specialists akin to assault rifles with underbarrel grenade launchers. However, the Griephan group even goes to the length of demanding the weapon be issued to all troops operating in traditional ground combat roles outside of camps and outposts. In the past some German units helped themselves to G3A4s with iron sights to have some more 7.62mm weapons in the field.

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## Desert Fox

Aamir Hussain said:


> Both Timberland and Bellvile and btw McRae are American products. I use 8" high McRae's. They are really good boots after wearing Chocorans for ages.



Timberlands are made in Cuba i believe.


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## Mosamania

ANTIBODY said:


> G27K: H&K & insiders suggest second standard rifle for German Army
> (Assault rifle HK417k-Bw (7.62mm NATO) scoped and equipped with a silencer to run for the "G27k"-Project)
> 
> Recent reports showed that - even though no serious complaints have been filed so far - the army's G36 standard rifle is pushed to its limits during firefights in Afghanistan. Only a few hundred consecutive shots can heat up the barrel so much that the weapon's accuracy on a man-size target 300 meters away is reduced to one third. H&K and the German military even had to issue a warning soldiers should rather wait for the barrel to cool down to hand-warmth before firing more, prompting German news outlets such as DER SPIEGEL to scoff at the "please shoot less!" order. Now the company's Marc Roth ([1], [2]) and the Griephan Briefe suggest the military's interest in a second standard rifle, an unofficial competition that's so far been dominated by a short-barrelled HK417 going under the designation "G27k". The project arose from the competitive bidding for a designated marksman rifle - won by H&K's G3DMR and G28 - and the search of Germany's special forces and military police for a supplementary rifle to fill the gap between the G36 AR and the G28 DMR ("Project Support Weapon for Short Ranges" closely contested by the HK416, Schmeisser's AR15 and SAN Swiss Arms' SIG516). H&K as well as the troops on the ground however lobby for the broad reintroduction of the 7.62mm NATO bullet (which proved superior to the 5.56 in Afghanistan). The G27k could be issued to weapons specialists akin to assault rifles with underbarrel grenade launchers. However, the Griephan group even goes to the length of demanding the weapon be issued to all troops operating in traditional ground combat roles outside of camps and outposts. In the past some German units helped themselves to G3A4s with iron sights to have some more 7.62mm weapons in the field.



This is bad news considering that the G36 is set to be our main assault rifle.


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## MastanKhan

Desert Fox said:


> Nothing beats American and European quality, though i would prefer American over European as well due to cost factor. Heck, even made in America boots are better than any you'll get from abroad, i knew people who've wore Timberlands all their lives and when they switched over to say Belleville boots they never even bothered looking at Timberlands again.
> 
> I bought a pair of these boots a few years ago and they are very comfortable, durable, water proof boots, and best of all they lasted a long time, they're great in winter.



Hi,

Americans make some classy shoes----for men---I prefer the Allen Edmonds---. The best built american shoes---kind of expensive they are----.

Before 9/11, you could use these shoes and when they wore out---you put them in a box and mailed them back to Allen Edmonds and they would re-sole and re-furbish the shoes for free----after 9/11, when economy took a hit---they started charging $25 for complete re-conditioning the shoes---.



jackhammer2 said:


> I saw a lot of people praising the range of 7.62x51 but my ques is what good it is as your rifles only have iron sights and its really difficult to take down a target 300 m away and in a battle battle when target is shooting back its next to impossible.
> 
> As per the replacement thing I think its better for Pak to make a rifle of its own somee thing with a BL of 16inch so that the overall length can be reduce and have a firing options of 1 3round burst and full auto (burst will not be a prob as Pak is also using mp5a3) Or you guys should simply buy HK41.



Hi,

You also need the stopping power as well---the 5.56 does not completely incapacitate the soldier unless hit in the vital parts---.


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## Nishan_101

I think it was the best chance for the POF to join the Germans on their next rifle and other arms program to learn as well as gain the technology and they can produce these weapons for Pakistan Armed forces as well as for other Nations who are interested in it!!! Which will going to help them gain Money as well!!!


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## Aamir Hussain

Timberlands made in Cuba, I think not! They are an American company. They might get some of their manufacturing done in Purto Rico or some othe LAtin American country but I doubt that anything of American origin is assembled in Cuba or a Cuban manufactured product is sold in US for that matter execept for the Cuban cigars that are not imported legally.


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## Jango

Any news that what has happened to the MP-5?

About 4 years back, a letter was issued that all MP soldiers (at gates, posts) will carry a AK/Chinese version instead of MP-5, because the MP-5 did not have enough power to penetrate a bullet proof jacket, that was when the terrorism was at it's height. I was in Murree then, has it been inducted back now or still is the AK the norm?


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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Americans make some classy shoes----for men---I prefer the Allen Edmonds---. The best built american shoes---kind of expensive they are----.
> 
> Before 9/11, you could use these shoes and when they wore out---you put them in a box and mailed them back to Allen Edmonds and they would re-sole and re-furbish the shoes for free----after 9/11, when economy took a hit---they started charging $25 for complete re-conditioning the shoes---.



I used to have Red Wing boots. Best boots ever! Helped a lot in the snow trodden Pennsylvania. So much grip, you could literally walk on walls with them!


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Any news that what has happened to the MP-5?
> 
> About 4 years back, a letter was issued that all MP soldiers (at gates, posts) will carry a AK/Chinese version instead of MP-5, because the MP-5 did not have enough power to penetrate a bullet proof jacket, that was when the terrorism was at it's height. I was in Murree then, has it been inducted back now or still is the AK the norm?



We still see MP-5s. Sometimes on checkposts and gates but they always have an escort of HIT made AK variant and G3.
Airport police still uses the Mp-5.


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## Saquib

Heckler-Koch want PAK Army to adopt G36, HK MG43 in 5.56x45mm, HK 121 universal / general purpose machine gun to replace the LMG G42 this will built under licence and transfer of technology for POF for Polymers used in manufacture.

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## Armstrong

Saquib said:


> Heckler-Koch want PAK Army to adopt G36, HK MG43 in 5.56x45mm, HK 121 universal / general purpose machine gun to replace the LMG G42 this will built under licence and transfer of technology for POF for Polymers used in manufacture.



Source....?


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## Fieldmarshal

Saquib said:


> Heckler-Koch want PAK Army to adopt G36, HK MG43 in 5.56x45mm, HK 121 universal / general purpose machine gun to replace the LMG G42 this will built under licence and transfer of technology for POF for Polymers used in manufacture.



bad move as the 5.56 round has all but failed in actual combat and hence the americans and the europians are moving to other other calibers.
g-36 too has not proved to be a success and hence HK 416 and 417.
PA should go for HK 417 as it has removed all the kinks and faults that existed in G-3 and G-36. plus its 7.62 mm. the same caliber that G-3 is.


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## TaimiKhan

We not only need a change in our assault rifle, machine gun, but we also need to change the caliber from 7.62*51mm. I am not suggesting we go for a 5.56*45mm, but something in between, something which is lethal but light in nature, so that troops can carry more of these and they can control their weapon in automatic fire as well as in rapid single fire mode. 

Get the design of HK-417 and incorporate it with a newer caliber. 

Good thing would be to mate 7.62*39mm with HK-417 design, provided the 7.62*39mm caliber produces the required results. 

Or go for something in the 6mm range. 

But i would go for the AK-47 7.62*39mm caliber cartidge, since its already being produced and is lethal and troops can carry more of them. 

Sniper mode should be 7.62*51mm, while we should also introduce a squad level machine gun like H&K MG3, which is awesome.


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## Abingdonboy

Can I ask- PA is looking for alternatives to G-3 which is in use with 100,000s of units in service. Most aternatives stated here cost 3-5000 USD a peice so we are talking Billions of USD and a huge chunk of Pakistan's defence budget. And this is only for the rifle noting to do with other upgrades that must take place. How does PA expect to afford this?

Does PA have anything like the Futre Combat system in the works?

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## Saquib

HK want a major order for their weapons and they are after Pak army and I just have a gut feeling this is what will happen. if Pak army adopts the G36 this will be a major coup for both sides as the Europeans/Americans are cutting defence budgets. Saudis have just adopted and will built them in Saudi and guess who will be involved.......


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## TaimiKhan

Abingdonboy said:


> Can I ask- PA is looking for alternatives to G-3 which is in use with 100,000s of units in service. Most aternatives stated here cost 3-5000 USD a peice so we are talking Billions of USD and a huge chunk of Pakistan's defence budget. And this is only for the rifle noting to do with other upgrades that must take place. How does PA expect to afford this?
> 
> Does PA have anything like the Futre Combat system in the works?



With local production the cost goes down further. Since it will be produced in bulk, another factor in reducing of the cost. 

And whenever done, it will happen in phases. It might take a few years, thus the cost would be spread over a number of years. 

Well no future combat soldier kind of stuff currently in pipeline, but may be some of the little stuff is incorporated in the future, but may be a mixture of GPS and beidou.

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## Saquib

If Pak army are happy with G3 7.62mm why don't they go for a bullpup design they will have a shorter weapon size of M4. There must a weapon designer somewhere in POF who could design one using parts from G3.


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## Axa-

You guys need the MPT-1


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## Grand-Vizier

Maybe we can joint produce our new rifle ( This is not a licenced produce hk416 , its a fully turkish weapon , the hk416 production under licence has been cancelled for a domestic weapon , pics below)

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## Manticore

Department of Defense - Description: THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT HAS BEGUN AN INTENSIVE SEARCH FOR A WEAPON TECHNOLOGY THAT WILL AT LEAST DOUBLE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE RIFLEMAN IN COMBAT. THIS PROGRAM BRIEFLY DESCRIBES THE FOUR ADVANCED FIREARM PROTOTYPES CURRENTLY BEING DEVELOPED BY INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS. THE NEW FIRING RANGE AT FT. BENNING WILL BE USED TO TEST THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE PROTOTYPES. A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE ARMY RIFLE IS ALSO PRESENTED. - 1991-02-26 - PIN 709024
US Army: Advanced Combat Rifle (ACR) Program [1989-1990]
Advanced Combat Rifle - Future Soldier Battlefield Weapon

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## emotionless_teenage

Fieldmarshal said:


> bad move as the 5.56 round has all but failed in actual combat and hence the americans and the europians are moving to other other calibers.
> g-36 too has not proved to be a success and hence HK 416 and 417.
> PA should go for HK 417 as it has removed all the kinks and faults that existed in G-3 and G-36. plus its 7.62 mm. the same caliber that G-3 is.



HK121 is a GPMG.thus it chambered the 7.62 NATO round.one of the main advantages of HK121 compared to older GPMG in service is that it's designed to be able to be operated as a LMG/SAW. this is crucial in boosting squad/section level firepower,thus enhancing the overall effectiveness of the infantry

G-36 is not a failure.main reason why it is never widely adopted is that most of third world country are still satisfied with their ARs or their AKs or their FALs. thus only SF personnel(outside Bundeswher) are able to get their hand on the gun.

HK416 was designed when the US found their M4s to be...less satisfactory,especially in the arid condition,with fine sand particle clogging their weapon.H&K comes out with a solution that enables the US military to update their assault weapon at the fraction of the cost of XM8,since they only need to change part of the upper receiver of the rifle,instead of investing in totally new(and unproven) weapon system.HK416 is basically an M4 with G-36 gas system



TaimiKhan said:


> Or go for something in the 6mm range.



6.8 mm Remington SPC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

my guess?it won't going to be the next big thing unless the US is having another conventional war(5.56mm is good at CQB/MOUT operation,such as in Iraq)


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## Thorough Pro

Abingdonboy said:


> Can I ask- PA is looking for alternatives to G-3 which is in use with 100,000s of units in service. Most aternatives stated here cost 3-5000 USD a peice so we are talking Billions of USD and a huge chunk of Pakistan's defence budget. And this is only for the rifle noting to do with other upgrades that must take place. How does PA expect to afford this?
> 
> Does PA have anything like the Futre Combat system in the works?



Can you indians ever discuss anything without bringing the "money" as your first criteria? First you raise a question about affordability then in the next breadth ask about PA plans for future combat system  

If you can't discuss anything from pure operational efficiency point of view you should keep out of the thread, no one is interested in your sensless rants.

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## Thorough Pro

This debate has been going on for quite some time with many members giving their recommendations some based on the "Looks" some on the caliber and some just for the sake of it.

First thing to be very clear baout is there does not exist one "Ultimate weapon", but there are many "Right" weapons for the various kinds of roles. Ideal would be to employ various different platforms best suited for various different roles, this can be done on a smaller scale for specialized operations but some kind of standardization would be desirable for mass deployment, firstly for the logistical reasons and secondly for the cost considerations.

Many members here critize 5.56 NATO for being ineffective (mostly based on reports coming out of Afghanistan), they are totally wrong. To start with 5.56 was designed/meannt to be "ineffective".... Ok...don't geet me wrong...heere is the explanation.

As an infantry man your primary objective is "NOT" to "kill" the oppponent soldier, but to put him out of action. whats the difference? A dead soldier is a deadsoldier, one less gun to fight with. An injured soldier is a logistical problem for the enemy, you not only put onesoldier out of commission by injuring him but also make 2 or 4 other soldiers to attend him/carry him. Use a transport Jeep/ambulance/helo to transport him back, pressure on hospital, on doctors, on medical logistics etc. etc. To this end both NATO 5.56 and Russian 5.45 are very effecctive, but this strategy does not work with irregular combatants like Taliban.

Coming back to PA main battelfield gun, we will have to identify the possible scenarios where this weapon will be / is expected to be used. Once we have identified the scenarios/roles we can then put down basic operational criteria like minimum effective range, accuracy in MOA, type of operation (single fire, Tri/Penta burst, Full auto, etc), mag capacity, use in extreme conditions (min/max temp), weight, attachment systemm etc..

Now based on these parameters a broad list can be drawn of the available weapons which can be compared against each other based on paper information to make a final list of 5/6 weapons, which can then be evaluated by offical tendering process, this is where the finer details like TOT, liscence manufacture, right to export, cost, and financingarrangements become part of equation.

Second option can be a to decideto develop a new plateform chambered for a totallly newcaliber, which is only possible when you have a well developed competetive infrastructure, which unfortunately we don't. We have been manufacturing G3 and MP5 variants for more than three decades but haven't come up with one single weapon of our own "design". Don't confuse it with adding folding or retractable stocks or chambering the same platform for anew caliber.

Now all this exercise wouldn't start because some PDF fanboy thought that "G3" was not cllo anymore or dreamed of a new "killler" looking gun. This would start if the operator (in this case PA) found any serious deficiencies or comes up with a new battelfield requirement that can not be met with the existing platform.

M16 or all of it's other variants though look pretty "cool", is quite accurate at 500/600 meters but this gun has some serious drawbacks...it's a maintenance hungry gun and prone to jamming specially in dusty /sandy environments, is "ineffective" killer but still it serves with majority of US ground forces.

AK47 and its variants (AK74/AK97 etc) are the most widely used, are very robust, durable and dependable wepon of alll times but seriously suck in terms of accuracy, but still half the wold armies still use it as their mainstay infantry weapon.

Now coming to G3, what are the real issues here? Weight, range, accuracy, mag capacity, caliber?Lets examine and compare with other weapons to see how far off this wepon is from other famous weapons used by major Armies and what advantage/disadvantage it gives to a regula PA soldier (not considering Special units here).

Comparison in the next post tomorrow.

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## Rajput_Pakistani

There can not be an ultimate rifle for a country like Pakistan. May be a small country of Africa or South America can select one weapon but not Pakistan. Any weapon has merits & demerits. Terrain, weather, conditions of light & snow, vegetation, wind speed are all factors which effect the accuracy and performance of a rifle. Pakistan is a very large country and we have very kind of terrain and possible weather within. Pakistan army deployment covers temperatures between the ranges from -30C to +50C. Deserts, snow, jungle, mountains, marsh land, vast fields, you name it are being manned by Pak army. Then there is a challenge posed by a regular army like India and guerrilla warfare of TTP. So in my view Pakistan will continue and must continue with mix weapons. G3 and AK47 are the best rifles currently for the challenges Pakistan faces.

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## RazPaK

G3 although an excellent rifle has it's drawbacks.

Check out this baby.







The HK 417 would definitely be a taliban killer.

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## Thorough Pro

As promissed in previous post, here is the comparison chart. Analysis in next post.





[/IMG]

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## Abingdonboy

Is there an active hunt on by the PA for a replacement to the G3 or is this a fantasy thread?


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## Last Hope

Abingdonboy said:


> Is there an active hunt on by the PA for a replacement to the G3 or is this a fantasy thread?



There already is a replacement rifle selected, and being worked on.

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## XYON

Last Hope said:


> There already is a replacement rifle selected, and being worked on.



Not to my knowledge!! GHQ cannot procure any rifle without going through the process of comparative trials and bidding. And so far GHQ had not started any process to replace the G-3!

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## Armstrong

XYON said:


> Not to my knowledge!! GHQ cannot procure any rifle without going through the process of comparative trials and bidding. And so far GHQ had not started any process to replace the G-3!



Has the G-3 become redundant as per modern day requirements that we'd feel the need to procure a replacement ! *Noob Question*


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## TaimiKhan

Armstrong said:


> Has the G-3 become redundant as per modern day requirements that we'd feel the need to procure a replacement ! *Noob Question*



The major disadvantage G-3 has, its heavy, its a big gun & hardly controllable in automatic fire, plus magazine can hold just 20 rounds, thus by looking at what other armies are having nowadays and especially looking at the CQB scenarios, G-3s are not good. But its good in long range duels and certain modifications in G-3 can make it a more deadly weapon system with respect to conventional warfare, but its not OK for CQB warfare.

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## XYON

Armstrong said:


> Has the G-3 become redundant as per modern day requirements that we'd feel the need to procure a replacement ! *Noob Question*



A good assault rifle is the one which can be easily carried by the soldier, it fits within the body dimensions of the soldier hence making it easier to fit the weapon within restricted spaces where the body can also easily fit, it should be a quick and natural draw, it should be accurate and have accessories like scopes, red *** sights, laser pointers etc that makes the weapon usable in all situations, its weight should be less and most of all its blow back should be a bare minimum in order to give higher accuracy during combat firing. The G-3 is too big, heavy, bulky, long, not at all ergonomic etc as per the average small physique & body frame of our soldiers. Hence the need to upgrade. But at this time and in the middle of a War in the SWA and NWA it is highly doubtful that the Army will actually go ahead to change the G-3. Like I said before, I do not see this rifle becoming out of service in the Army for at least the next 10 years or so!

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## jnd3x0

hmmm ...why not modify our G3 ...

less weighing materials /I guess this will effect accuracy of rifle with given caliber/ 
scopes attached
alternate design to any bulky part 

well all this process can be cost almost same as new rifle produce under given license by parent company

My fav are these 'not saying PA should go for these'





AKS-74U (correct me if these can not be regular assault rifle)

Caliber	5.45 mm
Cartridge	5.45 x 39 mm
Dimensions and weight 
Total weight (with loaded magazine) 3200 g
Total weight (with empty magazine)	2485 g
Overall length 730 mm 
Length with folded butt-stock 490 mm
Barrels length	200 mm 
Fire characteristics
Bullets initial speed	735 m/s
Rate of fire	700 rpm
Practical rate of fire	40 - 100 rpm
Magazine capacity	30, 45 cartridges
Sighting range	500 m
Range of effective fire	300 - 400 m

IDK I heard from someone in army that new tactics of battle field is to wound the enemy not to kill him,it is more counter productive.


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## Armstrong

TaimiKhan said:


> The major disadvantage G-3 has, its heavy, its a big gun & hardly controllable in automatic fire, plus magazine can hold just 20 rounds, thus by looking at what other armies are having nowadays and especially looking at the CQB scenarios, G-3s are not good. But its good in long range duels and certain modifications in G-3 can make it a more deadly weapon system with respect to conventional warfare, but its not OK for CQB warfare.





XYON said:


> A good assault rifle is the one which can be easily carried by the soldier, it fits within the body dimensions of the soldier hence making it easier to fit the weapon within restricted spaces where the body can also easily fit, it should be a quick and natural draw, it should be accurate and have accessories like scopes, red *** sights, laser pointers etc that makes the weapon usable in all situations, its weight should be less and most of all its blow back should be a bare minimum in order to give higher accuracy during combat firing. The G-3 is too big, heavy, bulky, long, not at all ergonomic etc as per the average small physique & body frame of our soldiers. Hence the need to upgrade. But at this time and in the middle of a War in the SWA and NWA it is highly doubtful that the Army will actually go ahead to change the G-3. Like I said before, I do not see this rifle becoming out of service in the Army for at least the next 10 years or so!



Barring the sights, the laser pointer etc. I don't understand why something as fundamental as 'bulk', 'length' or 'a lack of ergonomics' not realized at the time the G-3 was inducted to begin with ! None of these 'parametres' come across as anything that we'd be unable to appreciate a couple of decades ago ! Why the...?

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## Kompromat

Last Hope said:


> There already is a replacement rifle selected, and being worked on.



Negative----!


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## Last Hope

Aeronaut said:


> Negative----!



So, 'it' go dropped? Was the reason finance or dissatisfaction?


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## Kompromat

Last Hope said:


> So, 'it' go dropped? Was the reason finance or dissatisfaction?



Non existent to begin with.

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## Icarus

Armstrong said:


> Barring the sights, the laser pointer etc. I don't understand why something as fundamental as 'bulk', 'length' or 'a lack of ergonomics' not realized at the time the G-3 was inducted to begin with ! None of these 'parametres' come across as anything that we'd be unable to appreciate a couple of decades ago ! Why the...?



Because we weren't fighting a full-fledged insurgency back then! The G-3 is ideal for conventional warfare but CQB and Room Clearance besides other aspects of LIC don't usually agree with the G-3. However, that's covered. The Type-56C are doing fine for now and will be replaced by a similar rifle. The G-3 on the other hand is undergoing a cosmetic and functional upgrade. Complete with retractable butt, picatinny rails (Over and under), new stalk and flash suppressor. That should help extend the rifles life!

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## Armstrong

Icarus said:


> Because we weren't fighting a full-fledged insurgency back then! The G-3 is ideal for conventional warfare but CQB and Room Clearance besides other aspects of LIC don't usually agree with the G-3. However, that's covered. The Type-56C are doing fine for now and will be replaced by a similar rifle. The G-3 on the other hand is undergoing a cosmetic and functional upgrade. Complete with retractable butt, picatinny rails (Over and under), new stalk and flash suppressor. That should help extend the rifles life!



Hmmmn...that sounds about right ! Reading some of the posts or rather most of the posts it came across as if the Army was going to *replace* the G-3 as Pakistan's battle rifle with something else. It appears the word 'alternative' suggested in the title rings more true than I had anticipated...apologies !

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## Kompromat

Icarus said:


> Because we weren't fighting a full-fledged insurgency back then! The G-3 is ideal for conventional warfare but CQB and Room Clearance besides other aspects of LIC don't usually agree with the G-3. However, that's covered. The Type-56C are doing fine for now and will be replaced by a similar rifle. The G-3 on the other hand is undergoing a cosmetic and functional upgrade. Complete with retractable butt, picatinny rails (Over and under), new stalk and flash suppressor. That should help extend the rifles life!



.....and replacing an infantry rifle is a very costly exercise as its not just about buying some guns, handing them over to jawans and patting them on the back. *IF and WHEN* Army does consider to replace the G-3, i guess there would be much better options available including the new Turkish 7.62mm rifle by MKEK, HK-417, FN-SCAR and CZ-805 BREN tried and tested!

We, all want our military to have top notch gear without realizing how little our budget is compared to international standards. CIA's own budget alone is bigger than Pakistan has annual budget !

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## RazPaK

I believe it is best if we stick to the 7.62 rounds. So If we were to acquire a new battle rifle it should support that round.

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## Thorough Pro

Armstrong said:


> Has the G-3 become redundant as per modern day requirements that we'd feel the need to procure a replacement ! *Noob Question*



NO! G3 is still quite potent "Field Rifle", we are discussing the need for an "Assault rifle". there are significant differences between the two.




TaimiKhan said:


> The major disadvantage G-3 has, its heavy, its a big gun & hardly controllable in automatic fire, plus magazine can hold just 20 rounds, thus by looking at what other armies are having nowadays and especially looking at the CQB scenarios, G-3s are not good. But its good in long range duels and certain modifications in G-3 can make it a more deadly weapon system with respect to conventional warfare, but its not OK for CQB warfare.



It's just not the weight and size probelm. I believe both weight and size can be reduced with some resulting effets on performance, but that would not convert G3 into an effective assault rifle.

To start with barrel length can be reduced by about 2 inches, stock length can also be reduced by about 3/4 inches in the same design or by changing it with a telescopic stock, both these would reduce the ovwerall length and aslo cut down on weight. Additionally barrel can be shaved by about half mm, stock can be replaced by light weight plastic telescopoic stock or the same style in "skeletal design". Metallic magazine can be replaced with high impact polymer/plastic mags. All these modifications would solve (tosome extent) weight and size problem but it wouldnot change the chractersticks of the gun in a positive manner.

PA need to have a dedicated assault rifle built as an assault rifle from scratch with high percentage of plastic/polymer parts toreduce weight and adjustable telescopic stock with multiple barrel lengths.



RazPaK said:


> I believe it is best if we stick to the 7.62 rounds. So If we were to acquire a new battle rifle it should support that round.



Ther eis no harm in experimenting with a new round, as long as it's not a sissy 5.56.

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## Armstrong

Conceal Carry said:


> NO! G3 is still quite potent "Field Rifle", we are discussing the need for an "Assault rifle". there are significant differences between the two.



Dude, I thought that what the G-3 is to an Ak-47 followed the same comparative as the one followed by an M-16 is to an Ak-47 ! Which is to say that both the G-3 & the M-16 were designed keeping in mind the 'rifle portion' whereas the Ak-47 was more of a mini-machine gun meets a rifle kinda thing ! Or am I completely off the mark here ?

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## fatman17

there is too much invested in the G3 system. if they can 'carve' out a assault rifle from the G3 design it would suffice. there is the new design G3 with collapsible butt. many special units are also using AK's, M16's and the SMG's.

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## RazPaK

Are extended magazines available for the G3?


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## Last Hope

Swiss SIG

The only thing odd in this picture is the old SSG uniform.

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## Manticore

credits , cabalti and deno---- they can post more info on this hybrid
MKEK: Turkish infantry rifle goes in production in July 2012

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## ghilzai

Is this the upgraded mehmetcik 1, 7.62 version,and is Pakistan thinking of licence producing these?.

i feel G36 in the russian ak caliber will make a great infantry rifle for our forces, also pof has great experience with hk products and getting a license for G36 and mg36 will be very beneficial.


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## airomerix

It would take almost 5 years to equip all the operational units with a new rifle. Its not a piece of cake. It is unfortunate that even when our Chief of Army Staff took commission in Army he used G3 and after 40 years we're still there.


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## Armstrong

airomerix said:


> It would take almost 5 years to equip all the operational units with a new rifle. Its not a piece of cake. It is unfortunate that even when our Chief of Army Staff took commission in Army he used G3 and after 40 years we're still there.



Yaraa its still a pretty good battle rifle even if its ill-suited for CQB situations ? 

Perhaps a newer variant of the G-3 made by POF could be well looked into; we've invested too much into this rifle & the 7.62 round !


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## airomerix

Armstrong said:


> Yaraa its still a pretty good battle rifle even if its ill-suited for CQB situations ?
> 
> Perhaps a newer variant of the G-3 made by POF could be well looked into; we've invested too much into this rifle & the 7.62 round !



I guess you're talking about the latest variant of G3 which is smaller in size and lighter? I did see it at IDEAS 2012 and i didnot find it fascinating. We need to step up. I hope what ever we choose MATERIALIZES.

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## Kompromat




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## shanipisces2002

how about HK 416 ??? 
i think that is also a decent rifle


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## Kompromat

shanipisces2002 said:


> how about HK 416 ???
> i think that is also a decent rifle



Its, 5.56MM - Pakistan Army uses 7.62MM Caliber.


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## shanipisces2002

aaa thx i was wondering i might be wrong in regards to size of bullets thanks


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## ghilzai

Does anyone have any pics if g3m and g3s, and also if someone knows wether changes have been made to make the gun more reliable and jam free.

I will be grateful if someone can share some details.


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## tarrar

G3 should be replaced with light Assault Rifles like the US Army uses or Pak Army needs to make something equivalent to US Assault Rifles.


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## umair86pk

G3 is fine in open battle field but when it comes to counter terrorism ops 5.56mm should be used as its more accurate due to less recoil and twice ammo can be carried as compared to 7.62mm


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## The King Hamza

tarrar said:


> G3 should be replaced with light Assault Rifles like the US Army uses or Pak Army needs to make something equivalent to US Assault Rifles.


Mate u mean M4. Its got
a problem u have to open the whole God Damn gtn if something goes in it.
So I'd Suggest hk416 for 5.56c guns. Its a great gun.


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## The King Hamza

Assalam0Alaikun,
There has been recent discussion on 'PA needs to rplace G3' and 'A good CQC gun'.
Firstly I don't think PA needs to replace G3 it needs to make some improvements in it but if it needs replacement I'd suggest the following:-
1)HK417,(2)FN SCAR,(3)M16,(4)MKEK, (5)FN PARA,
Now lets come to the second topic.
I've seen people say y not get the Army the M4 as CQC. But as reported on PDF and wiki, the M4 has problem i.e. if some thing goes into the M4 one has to open the whole God Damn gun to fix it.
The Guns I think compatible are:-
1)HK 416,(2)AK 103/4,(3)AK 74,(4)CAR 15,(5)FN FAL(carbine).
Hope You guy like it.
Need my American Friends to make me clear on CAR-15.


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## tarrar

The King Hamza said:


> Mate u mean M4. Its got
> a problem u have to open the whole God Damn gtn if something goes in it.
> So I'd Suggest hk416 for 5.56c guns. Its a great gun.



Any thing which is best & will serve Pak Army well better than G3.


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## umair86pk

a while back POF produced a 5.56mm version of G3 called PK-8 what happened to it.


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## The King Hamza

umair86pk said:


> a while back POF produced a 5.56mm version of G3 called PK-8 what happened to it.


don't know mate my sources say it's still under large scale production



tarrar said:


> Any thing which is best & will serve Pak Army well better than G3.


nothing is better than G3 it's one of the best weapons in the world.


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## David2mayes

I don't think we would provide you the M4.


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## gangsta_rap

David2mayes said:


> I don't think we would provide you the M4.



The U.S has been providing M4 carbines and M16 rifles since the early 2000s though,its one of the standard weapons of the SSG.
If you mean in large quantities enough for the entire army then yes, thats something that won't work out.


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## umair86pk

SSG uses M16A3 versions which is semi automatic and 3 shot burst

Their is a cheap Chinese copy of M4 Norinco CQa available


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## slapshot

Aeronaut said:


> Its, 5.56MM - Pakistan Army uses 7.62MM Caliber.


It has a variant HK 417 for 7.62MM Caliber. This will be very decent option but expensive I guess.


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## The King Hamza

shanipisces2002 said:


> how about HK 416 ???
> i think that is also a decent rifle


You Are Right mate it's better than M4. And easier to get we may even get a license because we already have many licenses of H&K.


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## umair86pk

HK 416 is much better weapon than M4 much more reliable although based on the same design as M4 but has many modifications that make it very reliable.


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## Last Hope

Pakistan is going to modify all the G-3s to this standard, and apparently plan to keep them in service for quite longer,

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## muse

Question answered


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## gangsta_rap

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan is going to modify all the G-3s to this standard, and apparently plan to keep them in service for quite longer,



That's not so bad,I'm guessing they'll still use the Type 56 for low-intensity operations.

But how long will the G3 remain in service?There will be a point at which it will have to be discarded,my guess is that until a stronger caliber than the 5.56mm shows up


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## Last Hope

GIANTsasquatch said:


> That's not so bad,I'm guessing they'll still use the Type 56 for low-intensity operations.
> 
> *But how long will the G3 remain in service?There will be a point at which it will have to be discarded,my guess is that until a stronger caliber than the 5.56mm shows up*



Till we can afford to re-equip the troops with a good replacement rifle, probably a 7.62x39mm.


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## muse

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan is going to modify all the G-3s to this standard, and apparently plan to keep them in service for quite longer,



Last Hope:

Can you elaborate on this - how are the problems previously discusses, namely the weight and length, the inability to reliably use automatic, the problem with jamming, the recoil, -- how have these problems been addressed?

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## Last Hope

muse said:


> Last Hope:
> 
> Can you elaborate on this - how are the problems previously discusses, namely the weight and length, the inability to reliably use automatic, the problem with jamming, the recoil, -- how have these problems been addressed?



I haven't got any information about those, @XYON could help you in this matter. 
There was replacement program intended for MP-5 but latter dropped. All MP-5A2s are also going to get Chinese LY0001 Red D0t Sights. The G-3A3s which will not be upgraded to as shown in the picture will also receive these sights as planned.


Here is a picture of the sight:

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## muse

Hmm, that was really unhelpful - more confused now

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## Irfan Baloch

look at any youtube footage with Pakistani soldiers firing the G3 and the recoil is so terrible that it seems that the intended target is the safest from the incoming bullet. I just made a comparison video picked up from some youtube footage, there are some worse examples of G3 which I couldnt get but there are two I could find where the barrel swerves remarkably then I also have the AK 47/ type 56 comparison and the Pakistani soldiers are firing the same bullet caliber without that violent recoil.

granted that 7.62 has undisputed stopping power and pretty much ensures a kill no matter where it hits the target due to the shock and trauma caused by the bullet once it enters and exits the body but this all power is of no use if its not hitting the enemy. 

why not adopt a gun that has the power but not that violent recoil. G3A3 is of bygone era its too long, heavy and has jamming issues at below freezing conditions ("mostly" you only see AK 47 clones carried by soldiers in snowy places) and then there is this terrible recoil for our skinny soldiers with a small frame. normally our news channels use a footage of 2008 that is recycled to death and there is a helicopter landing on grass, a soldier firing a small burst and a soldier fires a single shot from G3 and looses his shoulder in the process and almost doesnt fall.(unfortunately I couldnt get hold of it otherwise I would have included that too)

but do see the comparison and see how smooth AK 47 is and why a gun with lesser recoil should be considered without sacrificing the power of G3. 

I am expecting a backlash from G3A3 fanboys I know its an awesome gun but please lets move on. my cousin claims to blow up a brick at 300+ meters, without a scope but not sure how many can achieve that accuracy with the kind of footage we have.

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## muse

The problems associated with the G3 are technological - it's curious that the firing mechanism has not been redesigned - I may be completely wrong about this but it seems no real work has been to use this design as a take off point by Pakistani engineers.


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## Armstrong

@Irfan Baloch : *Irfan Bhai*, the shortcomings of the G3 that you suggest aren't of a nature that couldn't have been identified 40 or so years ago when it was inducted; why wasn't the recoil, the failure to hit because of that recoil & jamming factored in back then ? 

I would imagine that the G3 is still valued for whatever it provides to off-set the aforementioned disadvantages otherwise we would have chosen another platform when : 

(a) it was being inducted to begin with 

(b) during the '80s when we had the sanctions lifted & the US aid flowing in

(c) during the early '00s when we again had the sanctions lifted & the US aid flowing in


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## Irfan Baloch

muse said:


> The problems associated with the G3 are technological - it's curious that the firing mechanism has not been redesigned - I may be completely wrong about this but it seems no real work has been to use this design as a take off point by Pakistani engineers.



*"there is a right way and then there is an Army way"
*
goes the saying

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## Kompromat

muse said:


> The problems associated with the G3 are technological - it's curious that the firing mechanism has not been redesigned - I may be completely wrong about this but it seems no real work has been to use this design as a take off point by Pakistani engineers.



Its known as "jugard".


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## Abingdonboy

Irfan Baloch said:


> look at any youtube footage with Pakistani soldiers firing the G3 and the recoil is so terrible that it seems that the intended target is the safest from the incoming bullet. I just made a comparison video picked up from some youtube footage, there are some worse examples of G3 which I couldnt get but there are two I could find where the barrel swerves remarkably then I also have the AK 47/ type 56 comparison and the Pakistani soldiers are firing the same bullet caliber without that violent recoil.
> 
> granted that 7.62 has undisputed stopping power and pretty much ensures a kill no matter where it hits the target due to the shock and trauma caused by the bullet once it enters and exits the body but this all power is of no use if its not hitting the enemy.
> 
> why not adopt a gun that has the power but not that violent recoil. G3A3 is of bygone era its too long, heavy and has jamming issues at below freezing conditions ("mostly" you only see AK 47 clones carried by soldiers in snowy places) and then there is this terrible recoil for our skinny soldiers with a small frame. normally our news channels use a footage of 2008 that is recycled to death and there is a helicopter landing on grass, a soldier firing a small burst and a soldier fires a single shot from G3 and looses his shoulder in the process and almost doesnt fall.(unfortunately I couldnt get hold of it otherwise I would have included that too)
> 
> but do see the comparison and see how smooth AK 47 is and why a gun with lesser recoil should be considered without sacrificing the power of G3.
> 
> I am expecting a backlash from G3A3 fanboys I know its an awesome gun but please lets move on. my cousin claims to blow up a brick at 300+ meters, without a scope but not sure how many can achieve that accuracy with the kind of footage we have.


 Sir, it seems as if it is a simple issue of a lack of funds. It is naturally far cheaper for the PA to spend $1-200 USD on a few upgrades to the existing G-3s than to spend $3-5,000+ USD on a completely brand new rifle (which would cost Billions for the entire PA). No one is saying the issues/drawbacks of the G-3 will be addressed merely there is little the PA can realistically do as realistically it is a brand new rifle the PA needs but that simply isn't an option right now. 

It seems as though this upgrade is an interim solution until a time when the funds are there. It is an imperfect solution but it is what it is.

better to take some,albeit small, steps than none at all.

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## Irfan Baloch

what about the type 56? same stopping power of 7.62, same features of legendary AK 47, its already in use why not this replaces G3 completely? if the issue is with the accuracy due to muzzle swing during firing (as shown by slomo videos of M 16 vs AK 47) then only that bit can be addressed, saving the time and effort to build the entire casing, firing mechanism and design.


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## Irfan Baloch

Armstrong said:


> [MENTION=15272]Ir
> 
> (a) it was being inducted to begin with
> 
> (b) during the '80s when we had the sanctions lifted & the US aid flowing in
> 
> (c) during the early '00s when we again had the sanctions lifted & the US aid flowing in




a) you need to catch the cold for your body to learn the cure, the gun is good no doubt, its in use across the globe including Europe but times have changed. people moved on from say 303 or M1 rifles to G3 M16s etc and then to M4 for example.
now there is technology to lighten up the weapon, shorten up the size without sacrificing power , range or accuracy which demands redesigning.

b) US guns although awesome but are a nightmare to maintain , expensive too, they more or less suffer from same issues and then there is the doctrine of sticking to 7.62 round which the M-16's standard 5.56 NATO issue didnt fit the bill.

c) special forces of both NAVY and army use the M4s, our specialist units use all the latest weapons that are out on the offer in the international market and are mainly western Europe origin, so there is no stopping there. but changing the assault weapons of the entire army takes a while and during the time of conflict its hardly the best time to switch.

reason for my post is to reassess our needs understand whats out there and what are the failings of the current weapons and come up with a customized weapon parameters that can be developed inhouse or outsourced to experienced producer and then mass produce it under licence.

I mentioned the type 56 that is widely in use by the military and you see it side by side with G3 . I dont have any feed back about this gun but can guess its more or less on par with AK 47 experience a kind of a sub machine gun with least maintenance, excellent reliability, fire power but lacking the accuracy like the typical AK. A perfect mix is Americanized AK 47 which has addressed that issue without sacrificing the winning points of AK 47. look up its videos and literature because I dont want to lengthen my post but you will understand what is my line of thinking.

thats the kind foa gun I am thinking of. not just the cosmetic touch up with rail to add accessories and extra grip and retractable butt but a better firing mechanism and feed, good prolonged shooting without risk of jamming by taking care of the blowback gases more effectively and robust design. this comes with experience and right tools, computers here can help a lot to come close to that goal. 

I dont care about the look, it might look as the behind of a baboon but I am all up for a reliable but compact gun with the stopping power of the G3.

ok I am adding the video for comparison and better understanding where I am going

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

the All American Centurion AK 47

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HRd289LdPs
http://www.gundigest.com/rifle-reviews-articles/centurion-ak-47-a-classic-comes-home

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## batmannow

Changing times needs changed equipments?
As our main doctrine tilt towardS terrorism we need a quality multi-purpose assult gun?
Yes we couldn't change whole dam G3s in a week time bt we could start with few units & their formational structures?
Like units in FATA's opreatIonal front could be equiped with better quality thn of G3 & type 56?
It could be lower in cost & ezyr to adopt with?
Thn we can move to LOC on kashmir???
What you think guys?
Which could be the best gun to be deployed in that 2 regions?

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## haviZsultan

How about G3KA4 variant. It is a pretty solid little gun I have heard?


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## Irfan Baloch

I am going to go through my "should be" list. what the military leadership decides in the end is a different matter

1. the starting point should be what G3 is offering in fire power, range
2. the transition to new gun should be smooth (i.e. ease in training & mastering the new gun)
3. it should be reliable & robust in our diverse environment including hot, freezing & humid conditions.
4. should be cost effective & simple design with quality as top prieority.
5. should be adaptable to modern auxiliaries like different sights, flash , sound suppressors etc & light & compact 

and lets not keep our mind one dimensional, look at the actual package and think about improving it too. yes yes the bullet.. do some research as well, so my dear decision makers your Nikkah wont be annulled if you go for a different bullet with different shape, make or size the propellent. the newest guns that are being developed today are being built around the new bullet.

one of the things that eats up the life of the gun and causes the jam and performance issues (apart from environment) is the gas that the parts involved in the firing mechanism have to suffer after the bullet's propellent (charge) is ignited. if the gun's design is lacking in expelling those gases then they take the brunt, over heat, can cause the "cooking" effect where bullets go off due to over heat even when the trigger is not pressed and cause jamming. any better design that smoothly gets rid of those gases will prolong the life of the gun, reduce its recoil and improve the accuracy.

well above all the is the matter of fact statement. the challenge is to actually put this in to practice and come with a design that is a perfect trade off (yes in the real world you cant have it all) which gives you a gun far better than what you have at the moment.


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## Last Hope

haviZsultan said:


> How about G3KA4 variant. It is a pretty solid little gun I have heard?


I've seen this weapon, but I wasn't _personally_ satisfied with it.


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## The King Hamza

THE BEST WEAPON FOR ME IS AN ideal AK105 or H&K 417/416.
The 417 uses same caliber as G3.
The 417s/416s cost above $5,000


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## Irfan Baloch

haviZsultan said:


> How about G3KA4 variant. It is a pretty solid *little *gun I have heard?



yes thats what it is , its little
its a Carbine class weapon. & is only lighter and shorter, if these were the only two reasons then it would have been good enough but thee are some issues with gun design causing problems which wont go away with a lesser velocity less accurate lesser range gun. 

this will open another debate altogether whether we should replace an assault rifle with a carbine? and why?
currently M4 carbine and M 16 riles in US army are used side by side for urban and conventional warfare.

our type 56 and the G3A3 fill both of these roles. with type 56 losely filling up the carbine role ( essentially a rifle with a shorter barrel but same cartridge & less velocity)


if you guys press me then I will explain more otherwise its a time waster if the debate doesnt move further

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## Skull and Bones

Why not upgrade to G36?


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## Amaa'n

Skull and Bones said:


> Why not upgrade to G36?



because, its a completely different platform, Training and Mastering tactics with this gun will take time.


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## Skull and Bones

balixd said:


> because, its a completely different platform, Training and Mastering tactics with this gun will take time.



Replacing G-3s for G-36 will be time consuming and will be an expensive proposition, but it'll be a move in the right direction.

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## Amaa'n

Irfan Baloch said:


> yes thats what it is , its little
> its a Carbine class weapon. & is only lighter and shorter, if these were the only two reasons then it would have been good enough but thee are some issues with gun design causing problems which wont go away with a lesser velocity less accurate lesser range gun.
> 
> this will open another debate altogether whether we should replace an assault rifle with a carbine? and why?
> currently M4 carbine and M 16 riles in US army are used side by side for urban and conventional warfare.
> 
> our type 56 and the G3A3 fill both of these roles. with type 56 losely filling up the carbine role ( essentially a rifle with a shorter barrel but same cartridge & less velocity)
> 
> 
> if you guys press me then I will explain more otherwise its a time waster if the debate doesnt move further


I am no military expert but We don't have the capability to produce enough 5.56 ammo to meet requirements. If we move to 5.56 or any other platform then we have to upgrade machinery at PoF. So changing to 5.56 is not a good idea. Even if we look at Iraq and Afganistan, Nato forces faced alot of jamming issues with M4/m16 carbines, even there M9 handgun had some hiccups.
Then comes the issue of resupplying the ammo on long enduring missions/patrols, in iraq soliders from 75th Ranger Regiment used to ran out of ammo,
Knight Armanent Company came with new design called SR-47, which was basically m-4, but it would take magazines and bullets from enemy 7.62 AK-47.
This is one of the reason for us to stick with 7.62 x 39 ammo.
SR - 47


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## Amaa'n

Skull and Bones said:


> Replacing G-3s for G-36 will be time consuming and will be an expensive proposition, but it'll be a move in the right direction.


Changing a platform during a War is not a good idea, plus we lack the resources to fund a project at a large scale as this. As i said above, G-36 / 5.56 is good for a Urban warfare but when comes to long range you need more power and kinetic energy to knock down the terrorist.
5.56 ammo has more range but transfers less kinetic energy to the victim, hence you have to shoot twice or thrice for the kill. 
I am not saying 5.56 cannot kill, infact it brings a painfull death, but at the spot, a terrorist shot with it will make it to hideout.

it is one of the lethal round because when it enters the body it scatters inside the body and causes more internal damage.

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## Irfan Baloch

balixd said:


> I am no military expert but We don't have the capability to produce enough 5.56 ammo to meet requirements. If we move to 5.56 or any other platform then we have to upgrade machinery at PoF. So changing to 5.56 is not a good idea. Even if we look at Iraq and Afganistan, Nato forces faced alot of jamming issues with M4/m16 carbines, even there M9 handgun had some hiccups.
> Then comes the issue of resupplying the ammo on long enduring missions/patrols, in iraq soliders from 75th Ranger Regiment used to ran out of ammo,
> Knight Armanent Company came with new design called SR-47, which was basically m-4, but it would take magazines and bullets from enemy 7.62 AK-47.
> This is one of the reason for us to stick with 7.62 x 39 ammo.
> SR - 47


I never advocated adopting 5.56 round in that post.


yes for the decision makers, any new gun must have the stopping power of 7.62, 5.56 round is big no no, the setup costs are prohibitive anyway

my post never suggested going for a smaller cartridge , I was just explaining the difference between carbine and a battle rifle. they exist side by side for a reason. G3KA4 is simply a carbine version of G3A4 variant (a G3 with collapsible stock) 

battle rifle or assault rifle still exists because as of now a carbine wont cover its role.
both carry same round anyway carbine is simply the shorter , hence lighter version. 

but thats not even the debate here as far as I am concerned. I am more interested in discussing the feeding, triggering, firing mechanism and also te field service and durability of the proposed weapon.


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## Amaa'n

Irfan Baloch said:


> I never advocated adopting 5.56 round in that post.
> 
> 
> yes for the decision makers, any new gun must have the stopping power of 7.62, 5.56 round is big no no, the setup costs are prohibitive anyway
> 
> my post never suggested going for a smaller cartridge , I was just explaining the difference between carbine and a battle rifle. they exist side by side for a reason. G3KA4 is simply a carbine version of G3A4 variant (a G3 with collapsible stock)
> 
> battle rifle or assault rifle still exists because as of now a carbine wont cover its role.
> both carry same round anyway carbine is simply the shorter , hence lighter version.
> 
> but thats not even the debate here as far as I am concerned. I am more interested in discussing the feeding, triggering, firing mechanism and also te field service and durability of the proposed weapon.



My point was in reference to your post where you said that we need to design the weapon along the bullet, am just saying that be it the 5.56 or the spc 6.8, both have their issues.
Russain came up with their own round and that is 5.45 x 39, whatever is on internet, AN94 is a brilliant design but even Russians couldn't issue it to the entire army due to economical reasons, that was my point.
As i said earlier if we want ti adopt a new weapon system or bullet then we need to have resources for it which we don't.
I agree with you on g3k4, i have seen it and a big no from my side, too small, with a heavier round with a low mag capacity.
Type 56 has some hand guard heating up issue, as i was told by a major in infantry.
G36 is a very old and trusted design with simple mechanism, only if we coukd chamber it for 7.62 x 39


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## Irfan Baloch

a new bullet design can entail different propellent or different gun powder and the projectile of different make while keeping the same dimensions. I am considering 7.62 to be the constant here and designing everything around it. 
i know my statement was too general and implied a new bullet in shape and size as well which wasnt my point but I am sure as the time passes this might happen where a smaller round will offer the same accuracy and velocity and eventually the stopping power which is only possible through 7.62 but not jsut now

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## batmannow

Irfan Baloch said:


> a new bullet design can entail different propelled or different pun powder and the projectile of different make while keeping the same dimensions. I am considering 7.62 to be the constant here and designing everything around it.
> i know my statement was too general and implied a new bullet in shape and size as well which wasnt my point but I am sure as the time passes this might happen where a smaller round will offer the same accuracy and velocity and eventually the stopping power which is only possible through 7.62 but not jsut now



You doing a fine disscusion, bt wht this old prapoganda stuff, like we can't adopt new ones cause they are too expensive or we don't hve budget, or that's the only one in the whole dam world?lol lol lol
Its our crazy mentality, which kept us limitting ourselves?
Just think about dam, F-16s we, keep buying them, but when frist we got them we never was so affraid off?
Why our mentality keeps us , too limmited???
We can get few good ones & systmeticly can move forward in parts , if we really wana move forward???
Don't you think?
Just think why US ,france,UK aren't so reluctent to hve 7.62. & why we stuck with it?


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## Amaa'n

Irfan Baloch said:


> a new bullet design can entail different propelled or different pun powder and the projectile of different make while keeping the same dimensions. I am considering 7.62 to be the constant here and designing everything around it.
> i know my statement was too general and implied a new bullet in shape and size as well which wasnt my point but I am sure as the time passes this might happen where a smaller round will offer the same accuracy and velocity and eventually the stopping power which is only possible through 7.62 but not jsut now


Oh I get it now, aplogizes for misinterpreting the post. But yes i agree with you, as you said we also need to work on Triggering,the firing mechanism, and the maintenace.
Just a food for thought, look into .22 TCM, its basically a 5.56 nato round just in small dimension chambered for a handgun, its deadly accurate. It was designed by Armscor, a philipines based company. So if they can do it we can also, but not at this point.


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## Gentelman

batmannow said:


> You doing a fine disscusion, bt wht this old prapoganda stuff, like we can't adopt new ones cause they are too expensive or we don't hve budget, or that's the only one in the whole dam world?lol lol lol
> Its our crazy mentality, which kept us limitting ourselves?
> Just think about dam, F-16s we, keep buying them, but when frist we got them we never was so affraid off?
> Why our mentality keeps us , too limmited???
> We can get few good ones & systmeticly can move forward in parts , if we really wana move forward???
> Don't you think?
> Just think why US ,france,UK aren't so reluctent to hve 7.62. & why we stuck with it?



 cmon we are buying F-16 because of their infrastructure....
till now PAF would like to buy mairages coz of facility...
we can even locally upgrade F-16 engine moreover we have them on soft loans.....
and newer block 50/52 are cool...
i suppose PAF would stick with them almost till US denial to supply more jets....
well pardon me guns are not my things soo let me first get them better known....
well but i agree with you we should go for newer and better ones....
we have enough budget but i suppose we should lessen our missile budget and should work on one project at a time.....
use spare money to built on PN and PAF....


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## Zarvan

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan is going to modify all the G-3s to this standard, and apparently plan to keep them in service for quite longer,


Is Pakistan producing this model of G-3 and if yes than what are its features and capabilities ? @Aeronaut


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Zarvan said:


> Is Pakistan producing this model of G-3 and if yes than what are its features and capabilities ? @Aeronaut



no first this is not a model.we do manufacture this g3 which is similar to any other g3 we make except the sliding stock. second the picinary rail .the for grip.and the holographic site are normally aftermarket addons. PA is adding a red *** tunnel site and a by pod stand to most of the G3s out there.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Is Pakistan producing this model of G-3 and if yes than what are its features and capabilities ? @Aeronaut



Actually the model being manufactured at PoF is a bit different, it has the picatinny rails but just at the handguards, this one is too beefed up.....there was a pciture of COAS firing one....let me see if i can find one......some people are saying that we might opt for aG3s, /g3k4


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## S-A-B-E-R->

balixd said:


> Actually the model being manufactured at PoF is a bit different, it has the picatinny rails but just at the handguards, this one is too beefed up.....there was a pciture of COAS firing one....let me see if i can find one......some people are saying that we might opt for aG3s, /g3k4


actually the picinary rails on POF g3 r not only on the hand guard but also on the upper receiver...but that is not the version solders r going to get..believe me we dont have that kind of funding to give all of them a full package.


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## Amaa'n

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> actually the picinary rails on POF g3 r not only on the hand guard but also on the upper receiver...but that is not the version solders r going to get..believe me we dont have that kind of funding to give all of them a full package.



Agree with you. I have yet to see a solider with a gun in question.i went to Pasban shooting Range Rawalpindi cantt.a Unit of 111 birgade was there for paces training, all of them had the type 56 or the g3 with no mods

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## umair86pk

G3 needs replacement as soon as possible.

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## Last Hope



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## fatman17

umair86pk said:


> G3 needs replacement as soon as possible.



pray tell us why?


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## Saifullah

i don't think we should replace G3s cause:

1- We are not going to fight any urban area war.
2- The action which is being taken placed by army in FATA etc is supposed to be the Police's job. we don't have any good Police infrastructure over there that's why faced this. so once the area will be cleared we don't need Army over there any more. hence no more Urban fight.
3- In non-urban war we need Range and accuracy which G3 certainly gives us nicely.
4- In non-urban war we don't need burst cause we don't wana waste ammo and for Burst we have MG3s.


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## dr_jawwad71

My vote is for slow but steady development of HK-417 variant for Pakistan Army. 
These decisions should take a proper time and evaluation.

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## farhan_9909

Last Hope said:


>



Done by Pakistan?


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## Last Hope

farhan_9909 said:


> Done by Pakistan?


Yes, but I don't know why. MG-3 should have been sufficient.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Yes, but I don't know why. MG-3 should have been sufficient.



Yeah...

What the heck is the purpose of this thing?

It is not man portable unlike MG3, it doesn't have the same rate of fire (??), the range or anything.

I would still go for a MG3 all day long.


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## Jind_Sagar

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah...
> 
> What the heck is the purpose of this thing?
> 
> It is not man portable unlike MG3, it doesn't have the same rate of fire (??), the range or anything.
> 
> I would still go for a MG3 all day long.



But it can share ammo,


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## black tiger

hi, it's just a mg3 on elevated tripod good for use from a fixed firing position like a sandbagged machine gun nest.


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## farhan_9909

looks amazing..what is the status.isnt the mass production of this already started.

what are the upgrades to this new rifle from the existing g3?

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## farhan_9909



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## Armstrong

@farhana_9909 : Wrror, is that a modified G3 ?  

If yes then can existing G3s be modified to this standard or does one need to produce an altogether new one in the workshop & that this isn't kinda like a F-16 type MLU in a G3's context ? 

What do you say @nuclearpak ?


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## Last Hope

Yes these are upgraded G-3 rifles and the pictures have been posted earlier. Existing G-3s can be (will be) modified to what is seen in the pictures. Chinese LY001 Red *** sight will be made compulsory for all, G-3 and MP-5.

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## Armstrong

Last Hope said:


> Yes these are upgraded G-3 rifles and the pictures have been posted earlier. Existing G-3s can be (will be) modified to what is seen in the pictures. Chinese LY001 Red *** sight will be made compulsory for all, G-3 and MP-5.



Mate it looks very nice & I'm sure its quite effective as well; so does that mean that our plans to procure a replacement for the G3 aren't in the works anymore ?


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## Jango

Armstrong said:


> @farhana_9909 : Wrror, is that a modified G3 ?
> 
> If yes then can existing G3s be modified to this standard or does one need to produce an altogether new one in the workshop & that this isn't kinda like a F-16 type MLU in a G3's context ?
> 
> What do you say @nuclearpak ?



Yes, that is the new modified G3, grip, bipod (optional), RDS and picattiny rail and also the retractable stock.

All will be made to this standard now, magr thora time lagay ga.

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## farhan_9909

instead of naming it modified g3

they should have given it a local name.
because the modification is heavy not minor

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## Last Hope

Armstrong said:


> Mate it looks very nice & I'm sure its quite effective as well; so does that mean that _our plans to procure a replacement for the G3 aren't in the works anymore ?_


Not for about another decade till G3 gets replaced. So, as alternate, they're making the existing solution more reliable.


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## Armstrong

farhan_9909 said:


> instead of naming it modified g3
> 
> they should have given it a local name.
> because the modification is heavy not minor



I just hope its not another one of them 'Al-G3' type thing ! 

I've had too much of Al-Khalid & Al-Nasrs already !

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## farhan_9909

Armstrong said:


> I just hope its not another one of them 'Al-G3' type thing !
> 
> I've had too much of Al-Khalid & Al-Nasrs already !


indeed
no al series name

rather POF xyz

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## muse

Any data on how much weight the new variant has shed, or whether the jamming and recoil problems have been dealt with effectively?


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## Kompromat

Upgraded G3s.

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## Amaa'n

so finally they are giving out the upgraded variant....Last time I check, the name given to G-3 with retractable stock was POF - G3S, any info on the changes made to internals? or these are just external changes,
To all those who think we are using the out dated weapon need to look at US Navy Seals M14 Mod 0 , or the Military variant M1a1 ,


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## RAMPAGE

farhan_9909 said:


>


 @nuclearpak @farhan_9909 looks pretty similar to this 1 !


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## A1Kaid

How do PA soldiers like the F2000? I did see some photos of soldiers training using the F2000 but can someone tell me what the soldiers think about that. I personally like the Aug A3. It is a very versatile rifle, it is very low vertical climb and recoil, good for medium and long range and very effective with red d o t sight. Other benefits easy and quick reload design. It's design shields it from sand as well.

Pakistani army currently uses the Aug A1.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Is it just me ... or the barrel (nozzel) also modified:

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## A1Kaid

Aug A3 holds 32 rounds per magazine while the G3 holds 20 rounds per magazine, you can attach a 50 round drum magazine with the G3 but I wouldn't like to have to rely on that in a close range or medium range combat with heavy fire.


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## A1Kaid

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah...
> 
> What the heck is the purpose of this thing?
> 
> It is not man portable unlike MG3, it doesn't have the same rate of fire (??), the range or anything.
> 
> I would still go for a MG3 all day long.



MG3 is great machine gun it is light enough a single soldier can easily mobilize with it and provide cover fire to his unit and gives even small units capability to lay down heavy fire against enemy units.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

A1Kaid said:


> Aug A3 holds 32 rounds per magazine while the G3 holds 20 rounds per magazine, you can attach a 50 round drum magazine with the G3 but I wouldn't like to have to rely on that in a close range or medium range combat with heavy fire.


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## humayounkhatri

mp 5 also used our pakistani army , g-3 is nothing front of mp-5


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## Amaa'n

@DESERT FIGHTER yara can you confirm that whether they have made any changes to the internals of the Gun or is it just the cosmetic changes , btw it looks sexy now







DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Is it just me ... or the barrel (nozzel) also modified:



looks like flash suppressor to me - which would be a good thing for night time ops

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## Slav Defence

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Is it just me ... or the barrel (nozzel) also modified:



beautifully,beautiful....


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## Zarvan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


>


This kind of Man with gun can be deployed on back of other soldiers to back them up and so they can move forward and charge on the enemy by the way it seems Pakistan has made quite some changes in G3 so it can suit them


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## Jango

has the weight also been reduced in the G-3?

Those old wooden stocks and grips, and then the plastic ones were contributing to the weight.

Now you can see the grips and barrel has been trimmed, and also no butt stock but a sliding rail.

I think there would be a reduction of around a kilo perhaps?


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## Zarvan

nuclearpak said:


> has the weight also been reduced in the G-3?
> 
> Those old wooden stocks and grips, and then the plastic ones were contributing to the weight.
> 
> Now you can see the grips and barrel has been trimmed, and also no butt stock but a sliding rail.
> 
> I think there would be a reduction of around a kilo perhaps?


Both Size and Weight needs to be reduced Sir it too huge I can't control my laughter when I see Police man carrying these guns what on earth they have have to do with G3 they should carry Ak-47 by the way I saw yesterday some soldiers carrying that old G3 version that with wood under barrel with lot of wholes


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## ghilzai

Does anyone know if internal changes are made, if the jamming and recoil issue has been bettered?.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

humayounkhatri said:


> mp 5 also used our pakistani army , g-3 is nothing front of mp-5



Beta ja ka Call of duty Kahlo

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## Haseebullah

Aeronaut said:


> Upgraded G3s.



Aaah man i knew our soldiers will have problem using the foregrip.


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## Amaa'n

Fore-grip is useful & helpful when it comes to CQB, for long range shoot and accuracy, grabbing the handguard like this helps more, talking about PA soliders not knowing about fore-grip is kind of amatuer, as almost every AK-47 in army has fore grip now, am not talking about SSG, but regular troops......forget about Regular Troops, you should look at Sindh Rangers, even they have modified Aks now, so i dont know what made you say that.


Haseebullah said:


> Aaah man i knew our soldiers will have problem using the foregrip.

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## Haseebullah

balixd said:


> Fore-grip is useful & helpful when it comes to CQB, for long range shoot and accuracy, grabbing the handguard like this helps more, talking about PA soliders not knowing about fore-grip is kind of amatuer, as almost every AK-47 in army has fore grip now, am not talking about SSG, but regular troops......forget about Regular Troops, you should look at Sindh Rangers, even they have modified Aks now, so i dont know what made you say that.


I never said they dont know about the foregrip.
I did see the mod aks in the election but i am yet to see any myself cuz i mostly see the regular troops using type 56 or mp5.
Inf units have the least amount of aks unless the are in ops area.



balixd said:


> Fore-grip is useful & helpful when it comes to CQB, for long range shoot and accuracy, grabbing the handguard like this helps more, talking about PA soliders not knowing about fore-grip is kind of amatuer, as almost every AK-47 in army has fore grip now, am not talking about SSG, but regular troops......forget about Regular Troops, you should look at Sindh Rangers, even they have modified Aks now, so i dont know what made you say that.


I never said they dont know about the foregrip.
I did see the mod aks in the election but i am yet to see any myself cuz i mostly see the regular troops using type 56 or mp5.
Inf units have the least amount of aks unless the are in ops area.


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## Thorough Pro

There is no real "upgrade" as far as operation of the weapon is concerned. The only changes are in "external" accessories such as is replacement of fixed stock with retractable stock to reduce the length for better manoeuvrability in closed spaces, provision of Picatinny rails for fixing optics, improved and longer flash hider, but all these changes actually increased the weight of the weapon, specially the retractable stock, which is significantly heavier than the fixed plastic/fiber stock.


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> There is no real "upgrade" as far as operation of the weapon is concerned. The only changes are in "external" accessories such as is replacement of fixed stock with retractable stock to reduce the length for better manoeuvrability in closed spaces, provision of Picatinny rails for fixing optics, improved and longer flash hider, but all these changes actually increased the weight of the weapon, specially the retractable stock, which is significantly heavier than the fixed plastic/fiber stock.







Shape is almost completely changed He by the ways what other things can be fitted with G3 @Aeronaut @Oscar @Areesh


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## Kompromat

Anyone knows how much weight has been reduced from G-3 by introducing the G-3M ?
@Icarus @balixd @RescueRanger

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## humayounkhatri

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> Beta ja ka Call of duty Kahlo



acha m call of duty kehlta hun to tum counter strike kahlo jaldi download kro ur strat kro game ,


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## S-A-B-E-R->

humayounkhatri said:


> acha m call of duty kehlta hun to tum counter strike kahlo jaldi download kro ur strat kro game ,



Chlo yaar khush ho gay ab koi msg karna hu mughay PM karna thread ko derail mat karna Mr Mp5 is Better than G3

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## S-A-B-E-R->

Zarvan said:


> Shape is almost completely changed He by the ways what other things can be fitted with G3 @Aeronaut @Oscar @Areesh



we can fit almost any thing universal to Picinary rail (sorry for the spelling) all kind of scopes sights laser designatior torch blinders UBGL UBshotguns just to name a few. 

also for those who want to know about the weight well there is a huge difference between this new one and old wooden stocked one. but much less difference between the polymer stock version.

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## Zarvan

@Aeronaut @fatman17 @Oscar @Antibody @nuclearpak @Zakii @Yzd Khalifa @Arabian Legend @Mosamania @Thorough Pro @Areesh and others

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## Yzd Khalifa

Zarvan said:


>



 Now you are talking homie

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## Dr. Strangelove

^^^^

some sexy great looking g3s

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## Zarvan

This can be the alternate HK G41 if not G3 @Aeronaut @Leader @Oscar @nuclearpak @Antibody @Areesh and others


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## Zarvan




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## Kompromat

@Zarvan They are 5.56mm

We should Up-grade not Down-grade. 

I wish to see HK-417 or FN-SCAR-H both 7.65mm NATO - to replace the G-3 in the long run.

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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> @Zarvan They are 5.56mm
> 
> We should Up-grade not Down-grade.
> 
> I wish to see HK-417 or FN-SCAR-H both 7.65mm NATO - to replace the G-3 in the long run.


O I didn't knew it but HK-417 seems to be a good option 










FN-SCAR-H


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## Icarus

Aeronaut said:


> Anyone knows how much weight has been reduced from G-3 by introducing the G-3M ?
> @Icarus @balixd @RescueRanger



I haven't used the gun yet but from what I hear, it's actually become heavier by almost half a kg.


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## Kompromat

Icarus said:


> I haven't used the gun yet but from what I hear, it's actually become heavier by almost half a kg.



Jees, thats like dropping a knife on one's own foot. The rifle isn't light to carry by any means already! -

If what you have been told is correct, then how genius is the idea of 'upgrading' it anyway?

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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> Jees, thats like dropping a knife on one's own foot. The rifle isn't light to carry by any means already! -
> 
> If what you have been told is correct, then how genius is the idea of 'upgrading' it anyway?



If its true than Pakistan should stop experimenting with G3 more and should focus on getting liecense of HK-41 or FN-SCAR_H or some other gun which is lighter in weight as compared to G3 but more effective speically in all weather conditions because we need guns which we can use from -40 to 50 C very few Army in the world faces these kind of ranges in their own country

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## Kompromat

Zarvan said:


> If its true than P*akistan should stop experimenting with G3 more and should focus on getting liecense of HK-41 or FN-SCAR_H or some other gun which is lighter in weight as compared to G3 *but more effective speically in all weather conditions because we need guns which we can use from -40 to 50 C very few Army in the world faces these kind of ranges in their own country



Yaar itnay paisy nhi hain abhi

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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> Yaar itnay paisy nhi hain abhi



Than we have to arrange it Mr we need to teach people the mportance of defense when HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW was about to leave the world in his last few days he didn't had much to eat in his home but is his home on his front wall he had 9 swords one spear and a shield and he never sold them to get food even though they had really high value because of that time

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## MilSpec

Aeronaut said:


> @Zarvan They are 5.56mm
> 
> We should Up-grade not Down-grade.
> 
> I wish to see HK-417 or FN-SCAR-H both 7.65mm NATO - to replace the G-3 in the long run.



Not necessarily... 5.56 is a very potent system if deployed correctly. 5,56 N, 7.62N and 7.62 are great calibers for specific range and have exceptional terminal ballistic properties at specific, conversely neither of these are do it all type cartridges. 5.56 is extremely flat shooting cartridge upto 250 yards, and has decent terminal ballistics (tb) upto 400 yards, smaller cartridge lets you carry more, 30 round mags and even drum mags are easy to carry. 7.62 nato is a longer range cartridge, but for smaller ranges from 100 to 300 rounds in combat situation, weight penalty is just too high for both the system and the cartridge, g3 fal m14 ar 10 most of them have 20 round mags so in suppression fire mode, you will run out of rounds pretty soon, recoils is high so cover fire are not as effective, here is where the 7.62 x 39 shines. effective ranges of 500 yards, but reasonable engagement range is usually at 150-250 yard mark, light weight cartridge and rifle system, terminal ballistic of the 30 cal round is extremely good, and makes up for the lack of velocity. All three of the popular rounds have their specific places, and rifle systems like HK416/417, SCAR, ACR, BREN, Tavor, all have some tricks up thier sleeves that make them exceptional modern assault rifle systems. So going to a different caliber essentially is not a downgrade, it's just a different caliber!


Now 6.5 grendel, 6.8 SPC and maybe .300 aac blackout might be do it all type cartridges. 

last post http://www.defence.pk/forums/guns-corner/229450-battle-rifle-semi-auto-full-auto-info-bank.html

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## humayounkhatri

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> Chlo yaar khush ho gay ab koi msg karna hu mughay PM karna thread ko derail mat karna Mr Mp5 is Better than G3



... but meri mrzi mjo kro don't enter my matter


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## TaimiKhan

Icarus said:


> I haven't used the gun yet but from what I hear, it's actually become heavier by almost half a kg.



I had my doubts, becoz the pictany rails on all three sides in the front and above where cartridge ejects are made up of steel / iron, thus they will add wait. I don't think we needed so many rails especially if the troops are not to be provided with all the necessary accessories due to shortage of funds. 

One rail for scope or red *** sights and hand grip was more then enough. Certain number with all the rails could have been added. 

Don't know how much money would have been made in this process and by whom.

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## Jango

TaimiKhan said:


> I had my doubts, becoz the pictany rails on all three sides in the front and above where cartridge ejects are made up of steel / iron, thus they will add wait. I don't think we needed so many rails especially if the troops are not to be provided with all the necessary accessories due to shortage of funds.
> 
> One rail for scope or red *** sights and hand grip was more then enough. Certain number with all the rails could have been added.



Agreed. Especially considering that G-3 is never going to be used in CQB...so you don't need a rail for installing a laser point aim and a torch on either side. So the side rails are practically useless. RDS and Grip rail would be sufficient.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

humayounkhatri said:


> ... but meri mrzi mjo kro don't enter my matter



do whatever u want just dotnt come to me when u r banned.!


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## Icarus

TaimiKhan said:


> I had my doubts, becoz the pictany rails on all three sides in the front and above where cartridge ejects are made up of steel / iron, thus they will add wait. I don't think we needed so many rails especially if the troops are not to be provided with all the necessary accessories due to shortage of funds.
> 
> One rail for scope or red *** sights and hand grip was more then enough. Certain number with all the rails could have been added.
> 
> Don't know how much money would have been made in this process and by whom.



Quad-Rails are fairly common in recently developed rifles, this allows them to easily take a red-***/telescope sight on top, a foregrip at the bottom and a tactical light at the side for night ops.



nuclearpak said:


> Agreed. Especially considering that G-3 is never going to be used in CQB...so you don't need a rail for installing a laser point aim and a torch on either side. So the side rails are practically useless. RDS and Grip rail would be sufficient.



It's not a designated CQB rifle but the reason for inducting the retractable butt is that it can be made more suitable for either role on the fly. It's not something I would opt for in a CQB sit but if I have to clear a compound whilst on another assignment and a G3 is all I have, then I will make do with what I have. Majboori ka naam shukriya.

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## Amaa'n

Aeronaut said:


> Yaar itnay paisy nhi hain abhi



To be honest lads from darra are pretty talented, they managed to convert AK47 and M16 to every god damn caliber, ranging from 8mm to 30 bore.
Given the time and resources, coming up with a new design around 7.62nato should not be a problem. A retd col and gun enthusiast was able to make 7.62n bolt action sniper rifle out of PKM barrel, using action from lee enfield and stcok from local shop......those were made in number and still shot in balochistan........

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## Icarus

balixd said:


> To be honest lads from darra are pretty talented, they managed to convert AK47 and M16 to every god damn caliber, ranging from 8mm to 30 bore.
> Given the time and resources, coming up with a new design around 7.62nato should not be a problem. A retd col and gun enthusiast was able to make 7.62n bolt action sniper rifle out of PKM barrel, using action from lee enfield and stcok from local shop......those were made in number and still shot in balochistan........



Darra Maal is unreliable, inaccurate and has a tendency of blowing up in your face. Not my favourite attributes when looking for a rifle.

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## Panther 57

Icarus said:


> Darra Maal is unreliable, inaccurate and has a tendency of blowing up in your face. Not my favourite attributes when looking for a rifle.



Dara has the skill, i have a dara pistol copy of italian weapon, but you cannot make it out until you see "Made in Pakistan" written on it. It is made of an alloy and does't erode. It is with me since last 20 years and even if i forget oiling, it does not get rusty. It is designed in such a way that while firing there is no recoil. So I would say that we have the talent, refinement should not be a problem. It will also help in controlling illegal arms, as weapon production will come under scrutiny and regulation. 
Development of an Industry

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## Amaa'n

Icarus said:


> Darra Maal is unreliable, inaccurate and has a tendency of blowing up in your face. Not my favourite attributes when looking for a rifle.



not necessarily sir- that happens when the parts are made in darra too, however the case I have mentioned is original barrel was used and so did the trigger action and other parts.
nowadays factories in Peshawer are converting orginal AK47s to 5.56 by putting in the barrel from m4 / m249. and its pretty reliable.

other than these you are right, i would not be standing closer to anyone firing that 7mm, 8mm converted ak

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Panther 57 said:


> Dara has the skill, i have a dara pistol copy of italian weapon, but you cannot make it out until you see "Made in Pakistan" written on it. It is made of an alloy and does't erode. It is with me since last 20 years and even if i forget oiling, it does not get rusty. It is designed in such a way that while firing there is no recoil. So I would say that we have the talent, refinement should not be a problem. It will also help in controlling illegal arms, as weapon production will come under scrutiny and regulation.
> Development of an Industry



Few years ago the clone was being sold at 20k... as for developing an industry i wonder what happened to the legally registered Dara arms factory,Siddiqsons Limited,Khyber arms company etc etc?



RescueRanger said:


> Legally registered guns from Darra Arms Factory, on display at IDEAS 2012:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note the Pakistani M92 and AR14 Clones.



Sir any info on it?

Here is an AGL by DSA:







Given a chance n govt support local arms companies can do wonders!
@Icarus @balixd @Aeronaut

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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Few years ago the clone was being sold at 20k... as for developing an industry i wonder *what happened to the legally registered Dara arms factory,Siddiqsons Limited,Khyber arms company etc etc?*
> 
> 
> 
> Sir any info on it?
> 
> Here is an AGL by DSA:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given a chance n govt support local arms companies can do wonders!
> @Icarus @balixd @Aeronaut



there has been a drop in quality of KAC products, they used to give 5 years warranty on their items but know they don't, there items are prone to blowing up on shooters face or Racking the pump of shotgun might break something....however there are some new companies on the horizon and have been doing very well....Badar & brothers - are exporting their pistols to US, Zafar Alam - given that its original produces high quality clones, Peshawar Arms Company has made a name in Shotguns category.....
and than its my all time favourite Daudsons Armoury - (DSA) they supply some of their products to Military.

Talking about that AR in the picture than that is a clone of Turkish m1919 12g shotgun, i was there at the exhibition......

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## Amaa'n

here is the pic i took










let me show you an interesting thing which i like at the exhibition




this target actually moves on the rails, and it can be programmed to put muliple targets to move on the same rail in different direction at different speed......

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## Panther 57

A whole hearted effort to develop this industry can be very beneficial for Pakistan. Convenient laws can help in better tractability, for security and improvement of industry.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

balixd said:


> here is the pic i took
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> let me show you an interesting thing which i like at the exhibition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this target actually moves on the rails, and it can be programmed to put muliple targets to move on the same rail in different direction at different speed......



Such thing have been in used with the armed forces for decades.. although its strange u saw it for the first time...


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## Amaa'n

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Such thing have been in used with the armed forces for decades.. although its strange u saw it for the first time...



pta nahin - this was the first time i saw such setup in pakistan-wasnt aware that military was using this.....
this could be good for civilian sports shooting too


----------



## Icarus

Panther 57 said:


> Dara has the skill, i have a dara pistol copy of italian weapon, but you cannot make it out until you see "Made in Pakistan" written on it. It is made of an alloy and does't erode. It is with me since last 20 years and even if i forget oiling, it does not get rusty. It is designed in such a way that while firing there is no recoil. So I would say that we have the talent, refinement should not be a problem. It will also help in controlling illegal arms, as weapon production will come under scrutiny and regulation.
> Development of an Industry



There's no uniformity in the quality of materials used, many workshops have smelting stations where scrap metal is moulded into firearm parts. The scrap metal lacks the structural integrity to hold out against sustained pressure. If regularized, the industry has a lot of potential but at present, there are only a few well known Dara Gunsmiths that I would trust.

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## Zarvan

@DESERT FIGHTER those industries still exists in UAE when weapons are showed they also show their weapons and often the prove to be better @Icarus



Icarus said:


> Darra Maal is unreliable, inaccurate and has a tendency of blowing up in your face. Not my favourite attributes when looking for a rifle.



Sir those weapons are being used by militants in whole world they are pretty successful not like what you are saying here sir


----------



## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER those industries still exists in UAE when weapons are showed they also show their weapons and often the prove to be better @Icarus
> Sir those weapons are being used by militants in whole world they are pretty successful not like what you are saying here sir



Zarvan brother, tell you what - most of the weapons seized from TTP / militants are russian origin, ranging from ak47 to akm47, ak74 to pkm.
however militants in the lower cadre might be using local made weapons, we are not saying local are not reliable - its just that they dont last that long.
there are some good pieces out their in market


----------



## Zarvan

balixd said:


> Zarvan brother, tell you what - most of the weapons seized from TTP / militants are russian origin, ranging from ak47 to akm47, ak74 to pkm.
> however militants in the lower cadre might be using local made weapons, we are not saying local are not reliable - its just that they dont last that long.
> there are some good pieces out their in market


Sir all kind of weapons are being made in Dara they are even making some Russian Snipers and and also American weapons and in many cases they have proved to be more reliable than weapons produced by our Army


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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> Sir all kind of weapons are being made in Dara they are even making some Russian Snipers and and also American weapons and in many cases they have proved to be more reliable than weapons produced by our Army



Parts are hand made, not reliable as machine made ones, also doubt on materials, you don't want a round exploding out and taking your fingers off, there is a chance with the Darra stuff.


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## Panther 57

> It will also help in controlling illegal arms, as weapon production will come under scrutiny and regulation.



This is where regulating the industry comes in.


----------



## Icarus

Zarvan said:


> @DESERT FIGHTER those industries still exists in UAE when weapons are showed they also show their weapons and often the prove to be better @Icarus
> 
> 
> 
> Sir those weapons are being used by militants in whole world they are pretty successful not like what you are saying here sir



The militants use mostly Soviet Era Russian arms.......The notion that they use Darra maal is misleading.

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## Amaa'n

Zarvan said:


> Sir all kind of weapons are being made in Dara they are even making some Russian Snipers and and also American weapons and in many cases they have proved to be more reliable than weapons produced by our Army



you should check the above comment by icarus. militants are using original russian origin weapons.....darra weapons are good no doubt about that, but not all of them, there are quality in weapons produced


----------



## madmusti

Will enter the Service in Turkish Army in July 2014.

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## OCguy

Edit: wrong thread!


----------



## Khan_patriot

Blackpearl said:


> Pakistan Army is using POF delivered G-3 rifles. The weapon is actually from a rifle category, best suited for aimed shots. It has a longer range. but who needs long range now, and fire aimed shots. Also rifle is poor in kicking back on Shoulder. All over the world, Armies hav shifted to lower calibre: 5.56 mm. The advantages of 5.56 mm calibre over 7.62 mm (as in G-3) are:
> 
> 1. Lower calibre means, lighter barrel: so lesser weight of the weapon.
> 2. Reduction in calibre means ammunition weight is reduced per round, so more bullets, may be carried. Thats why, mags for 5.56 calibres are 30 rounds mag instead of 20 rounds.
> 
> 3. Lesser propellent in cartridge case, means low weapon recoil: thus better handling qualities.
> 
> 4. Better handling qualities means, weapon is good in CQB (close quarter battles).
> 
> 5. Pakistan Army is mostly fighting war in hilly region, where engagement ranges do not exceed 1500 meters. Thus '5.56' is ideally suited.
> 
> 6. As weapon and its ammo is light weight, so soldier may carry weapons for longer duration, distances, causing less fatigue.
> 
> So i think, Pakistan should switch to 5.56 mm calibre.
> My vote is for Colt M4 Carbine ( USA).



M4 Sir, in my opinion is something that is not only unaffordable in todays economy, unless we get license for indigenous production (which is again unlikely), M4 also needs to be meticiously cleaned and is unsuited for the NWA enviorment, US soldiers in Iqar and Afghanistan keeps backup AKs I believe, unlike the G3 and the AK which are known to need lesser mantainance, in my opinion AK 12 needs to be considered....

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## A1Kaid

PA should also take a look at the Scar-H, it's been tested in Iraq and Afghanistan and a favorite among soldiers who have used them. It's relatively light weight, fires the 7.62x51mm NATO round, variants for CQC, snipers, and standard, multiple rails allowing the soldier to mount attachments i.e lasers, lights, optics, etc. It fires 625 r/min. It's a battle proven battle rifle and very powerful, can do serious damage and has an effective range of 650+ yards with standard barrel and 850+ yards with long barrel, that is adequate for most battlefield conditions and situations.


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## Anubis

You guys should make your own variant of the AK platform!


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## hari sud

G3 is a better rifle than any 5.56 rifles including M-16. 

India made that mistake by dumping FAL in favor if smaller caliber INSAS. 

They are learning their lesson now by asking for a multicaliber rifle. This is huge cost.


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## A1Kaid

hari sud said:


> *G3 is a better rifle than any 5.56 rifles *including M-16.
> 
> India made that mistake by dumping FAL in favor if smaller caliber INSAS.
> 
> They are learning their lesson now by asking for a multicaliber rifle. This is huge cost.



Not necessarily, but in terms of stopping power the G3 is more powerful but that's because of the 7.62 round it fires not necessarily due to any mechanical nature of the gun. The assault rifle class like Aug A3 are arguably superior choices for many combat situations, not to mention the Aug A3 has extremely low recoil and is highly accurate, very good for engaging multiple targets at close and mid-range even at long ranges with the proper scope I would trust the Aug A3 over the G3.

G3's major weakness is it's heavy recoil and muzzle climb, it's noise could be another issue, these issues lead to inaccurate firing. Though G3 can be greatly improved using Acog, heavy barrel, ergo foregrip, and other attachments.

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## farhan_9909

The most cheaper and readily available option is replacing it with G-3M aswell as G-3S

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## A1Kaid

farhan_9909 said:


> The most cheaper and readily available option is replacing it with G-3M aswell as G-3S




In that case no point in replacing, I would like to see POF manufacture their own version of the Scar-H, for all the reasons I mentioned above in my earlier post.

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## RescueRanger

Anubis said:


> You guys should make your own variant of the AK platform!



Why when we can get NORINCO made SMG7.62 very affordable rates and we have our own POF made kit? Money should be spent on something more useful. G3S with the shorter 300mm barrel, and rail system is a good interim option.

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## Thirdfront

hari sud said:


> G3 is a better rifle than any 5.56 rifles including M-16.
> 
> India made that mistake by dumping FAL in favor if smaller caliber INSAS.
> 
> They are learning their lesson now by asking for a multicaliber rifle. This is huge cost.



There is a huge debate on 5.56 and 7.62... lets not go there... Main reason for dumping FAL was that it was impossible to fire it in auto mode.. it has a huge kick....


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## farhan_9909

A1Kaid said:


> In that case no point in replacing, I would like to see POF manufacture their own version of the Scar-H, for all the reasons I mentioned above in my earlier post.



Good but again Pakistan will have to pay for the Scar H Local Manufacturing/Modifying to the original manufacturer,which certainly is not possible in this decade

Why not develop a 100% Pakistani Assault rifle?POF is a more than 60 years older firm with a base of atleast 80-100million dollars export each year.

They should have the capability of designing and than manufacturing a rifle with inputs from Pakistan army


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## DESERT FIGHTER

farhan_9909 said:


> The most cheaper and readily available option is replacing it with G-3M aswell as G-3S



Both in service..


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## farhan_9909

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Both in service..



They are,But they are still not the standard.

I am yet to see a single PA jawan with g3s or m in Abbottabad,While in Abbottabad the jawans were probably among the first getting the new semi digital uniform

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## Kompromat

Any takers for the Ak-12?

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## RescueRanger

farhan_9909 said:


> They are,But they are still not the standard.
> 
> I am yet to see a single PA jawan with g3s or m in Abbottabad,While in Abbottabad the jawans were probably among the first getting the new semi digital uniform



Give it time, G3s is slow roll out.

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## Kompromat

@RescueRanger

Are we really THAT incapable of developing a modern assault firearm at home?

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## RescueRanger

Aeronaut said:


> @RescueRanger
> 
> Are we really THAT incapable of developing a modern assault firearm at home?



Sir we are more than able, *just lack of motivation. *Just look at how much importance we put on "fire safety" in buildings despite Shaeed-e-Millat Tower, Ghanj Mandi, Ghakkar Plaza, Ali Fabrics, Melody Market, Empress Market & LDA Plaza?

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## Kompromat

I seriously get depressed when i see the gunsmithing talent in Pakistan being wasted. Why can organizations like DESTO develop a local assault weapon is just beyond me. 

Pakistan should develop local designs and end reliance on foreign suppliers. Look at Israel, they started with ripp off Soviet and American designs, now they are an established arms developer!!

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## haman10

G3 is powerful but load ! and stucks too much .

here is an iranian solution :

the upgraded version of kheybar 2002 (kh2002) KH-2002 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which comes under the name of sa'ma :



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


http://edge.********.com/80281E/s/s/20/media20/2013/Aug/6/********-dot-com-da466eeb4400-untitled.png?d5e8cc8eccfb6039332f41f6249e92b06c91b4db65f5e99818badf9e4f43dbd50402&ec_rate=230

http://edge.********.com/80281E/s/s/20/media20/2013/Aug/6/********-dot-com-e16d6ce112e9-untitled.jpg?d5e8cc8eccfb6039332f41f6249e92b06c91b4db65f5e99818badf9e4f43dbd50402&ec_rate=230

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## RescueRanger

Aeronaut said:


> I seriously get depressed when i see the gunsmithing talent in Pakistan being wasted. Why can organizations like DESTO develop a local assault weapon is just beyond me.
> 
> Pakistan should develop local designs and end reliance on foreign suppliers. Look at Israel, they started with ripp off Soviet and American designs, now they are an established arms developer!!



Sir, 

POF is going in that direction, but you know the Champions at the top still stuck in the "imported" maal lo jee mentality. It took Pakistan 15 years to start accepting and buying locally made body armor, where there is demand a supplier will emerge. 

Pakistan can easily take the AKM or HK 417 rights and reproduce in Pakistan. But "red tape" zindabad!

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## farhan_9909

Both G3m and G3s are a good replacement.Though the Problem is that it should be replaced sooner not by 2020.

So that atleast by 2025 we will be able to issue them a Brand new Rifle be it of foriegn origin or Local

Though G3m seem more like a serioys modification while the G3s seem like just a accessirized G-3


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## A1Kaid

Why the hell are they labeling the G3 and it's variants as an "assault rifle" it's a battle rifle.


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## Informant

A1Kaid said:


> Why the hell are they labeling the G3 and it's variants as an "assault rifle" it's a battle rifle.



Oh we call Chinese AK's SMG's to phir tussi rahn hi do.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

farhan_9909 said:


> Both G3m and G3s are a good replacement.Though the Problem is that it should be replaced sooner not by 2020.
> 
> So that atleast by 2025 we will be able to issue them a Brand new Rifle be it of foriegn origin or Local
> 
> Though G3m seem more like a serioys modification while the G3s seem like just a accessirized G-3












ATS Islamabad - ATS Instructor coaches a SP during weapon handling re-qualification. *Note the ACOG scope.

*G3S pic courtesy Rescue Ranger

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## Amaa'n

A1Kaid said:


> Why the hell are they labeling the G3 and it's variants as an "assault rifle" it's a battle rifle.


because you don't call a rifle merely on the caliber - it might have the heavier round but folding / retractable stock and shorter barrel kind of makes it an assault rifle


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## A1Kaid

balixd said:


> because you don't call a rifle merely on the caliber - it might have the heavier round but folding / retractable stock and shorter barrel kind of makes it an assault rifle




It's still primarily a battle rifle just with assault rifle style features like the retractable stock and carbine barrel.


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## RAMPAGE

RescueRanger said:


> Give it time, G3s is slow roll out.


The barrel is still far too long !!!


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## Amaa'n

yes dear i know that - i was just saying that why G3s is labeled as an Assault Rifle, otherwise G3 was meant to a battle rifle.
but it is an awesome platform for DMR role too


A1Kaid said:


> It's still primarily a battle rifle just with assault rifle style features like the retractable stock and carbine barrel.


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## AUz

Pakistan must learn from Israel when it comes to making firearms.

Look at Israelis, they manufacture probably THE best modern assault rifles and fire-arms for their military and special forces.

While we are still stuck with stone-age G3 that was being used in World War 2 era !!!

Pakistan Army needs two things that might not look that important in over-all military calculus, but will give Pakistan Army a real face-lift as a powerful force to recon with..

These two things are
*
1) Gyms, body-building, and work-out for soldiers/officers!!!!*

Look at Western soldiers. They very presence makes you 'feel' their presence. Strong, muscled, sleek, and FIT! Clearly above the rest.

Our soldiers look tiny, weak boys in comparison to them...

Pakistan Army soldiers must also be fit, strong, and tough men...a whole level above than the civilians!*

2) Have our soldiers carry a kick-*** modern assault/battle rifle!*

Again, this is psychologically very important! Abhi to you feel bad for Pakistani soldiers since they carry weapons that are inferior to weapons carried by many people in Karachi..lol..

If I was a general assigned to re-vitalized the image of Pakistan Army...I would've done these two things immediately. I know it takes time and can't be done over-night....but still..there should be urgent steps in these regards, transforming your military in coming years.

Side note: I didn't include uniform b/c I think the new uniform is pretty O.K



RAMPAGE said:


> The barrel is still far too long !!!



Pakistan Military Forces are a massive machine..We aren't like Israelis who faced urban warfare on day to day basis.

Our forces are deployed in plains, deserts, and mountains to face conventional thread of a million man military to our east...

short-barrel guns are in Special Services already...

Size of barrel isn't much of problem for us.

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## Amaa'n

g


AUz said:


> .
> 
> These two things are
> *1) Gyms, body-building, and work-out for soldiers/officers!!!!*
> 
> Look at Western soldiers. They very presence makes you 'feel' their presence. Strong, muscled, sleek, and FIT! Clearly above the rest.
> 
> Our soldiers look tiny, weak boys in comparison to them...
> 
> Pakistan Army soldiers must also be fit, strong, and tough men...a whole level above than the civilians!


some what i disagree with you on above part - Muscles and heavy built is one thing while Endurance and Fitness level is another....
What I know is for a Solider you need a person with good mental capacity, Endurance, & body fitness.
Don't forget all those muscles will add extra weight for the soldiers to carry - can restrict the movements to a point too.

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## AUz

balixd said:


> g
> 
> some what i disagree with you on above part - Muscles and heavy built is one thing while Endurance and Fitness level is another....
> What I know is for a Solider you need a person with good mental capacity, Endurance, & body fitness.
> Don't forget all those muscles will add extra weight for the soldiers to carry - can restrict the movements to a point too.



Well, I am not arguing to make every Pakistani soldier a mega 'buff'...but there should be minimum level of body buildup required for all soldiers.

This is necessary. Gym only helps endurance and fitness


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## Informant

AUz said:


> Pakistan must learn from Israel when it comes to making firearms.
> 
> Look at Israelis, they manufacture probably THE best modern assault rifles and fire-arms for their military and special forces.
> 
> While we are still stuck with stone-age G3 that was being used in World War 2 era !!!
> 
> Pakistan Army needs two things that might not look that important in over-all military calculus, but will give Pakistan Army a real face-lift as a powerful force to recon with..
> 
> These two things are
> *1) Gyms, body-building, and work-out for soldiers/officers!!!!*
> 
> Look at Western soldiers. They very presence makes you 'feel' their presence. Strong, muscled, sleek, and FIT! Clearly above the rest.
> 
> Our soldiers look tiny, weak boys in comparison to them...
> 
> Pakistan Army soldiers must also be fit, strong, and tough men...a whole level above than the civilians!
> *
> 2) Have our soldiers carry a kick-*** modern assault/battle rifle!*
> 
> Again, this is psychologically very important! Abhi to you feel bad for Pakistani soldiers since they carry weapons that are inferior to weapons carried by many people in Karachi..lol..
> 
> If I was a general assigned to re-vitalized the image of Pakistan Army...I would've done these two things immediately. I know it takes time and can't be done over-night....but still..there should be urgent steps in these regards, transforming your military in coming years.
> 
> Side note: I didn't include uniform b/c I think the new uniform is pretty O.K
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Military Forces are a massive machine..We aren't like Israelis who faced urban warfare on day to day basis.
> 
> Our forces are deployed in plains, deserts, and mountains to face conventional thread of a million man military to our east...
> 
> short-barrel guns are in Special Services already...
> 
> Size of barrel isn't much of problem for us.



While your points hold water, but you have to realise each US soldier is a million dollar machine. That's right, it takes 1 million dollar for a US soldier to train them with up to date military tactics and latest weapons handling training. Plus The average height in the US army during Iraq war theater was 5'10. Ours is about 5'7 - 5'8. Plus their built is wide and huge as you have seen race factor does come into play. No wonder the US soliders look like men with "tore". Plus the gear they are afforded is untouchable, air cover/air support at a short notice. If you have seen their videos of battles the Talibans have RARELY killed any US soldier in an open gun battle. It's only IEDs that have caused so many casualties. Their doctrine is followed all over and we are following it since after their experience in so many wars it is impeccable, loving or hating their policy is different, but one cannot deny their prowess.

Now the main issue is we are a poor nation, the army has a budget of $3 B. Now factor in the costs for nuclear arsenal and weapons development. Then the ongoing WOT operations. So everything takes a hit and the development and training costs. So the new gear will take some time, rest assured the army does realise the need for a new weapon/requirements. G3 is a battle rifle suited for plains open areas. Since our new war is Counter Terrorism the rifle isnt suited at all. It's big, a meter long, heavy and the caliber is not suited at all. So i see your issue with it. The G3M/S has been developed keeping in mind these issues.

Rest assured the direction is right but funds for us have always been an issue.


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## Armstrong

@Oscar - Are we incapable of producing a proper Designed & Manufactured in Pakistan Battlerifle/Assault Rifle or are we just not bothered about doing that ?


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> @Oscar - Are we incapable of producing a proper Designed & Manufactured in Pakistan Battlerifle/Assault Rifle or are we just not bothered about doing that ?



Well, it depends on if there are mechanical engineers who actually come up with something creative. Not too many Mikhail Kalashinkovs out there in Pakistan as such and copying without getting the IP rights will lead to bad reputation and mistrust from arms manufacturers. However, taking existing designs and finding improvements in them is not a bad idea and is done on various levels. One option is to research and note down the various tweaks and modifications done by troops or Ord guys at grass roots level and incorporate those improvements into the original rifle.. this is done to a certain extent at POF. 
A new rifle can be manufactured but the basic requirement is that it must perform better than the last one. As such, the Army seems satisfied with the AK(PK-10) as its new preferred weapon. The AK is a fairly modified design though and not much can be done with it that has not already been done. 
So it just depends on the requirement... worst case.. one can hire a few ex-USSR east european engineers and have them design something.

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## Informant

Oscar said:


> Well, it depends on if there are mechanical engineers who actually come up with something creative. Not too many Mikhail Kalashinkovs out there in Pakistan as such and copying without getting the IP rights will lead to bad reputation and mistrust from arms manufacturers. However, taking existing designs and finding improvements in them is not a bad idea and is done on various levels. One option is to research and note down the various tweaks and modifications done by troops or Ord guys at grass roots level and incorporate those improvements into the original rifle.. this is done to a certain extent at POF.
> A new rifle can be manufactured but the basic requirement is that it must perform better than the last one. As such, the Army seems satisfied with the AK(PK-10) as its new preferred weapon. The AK is a fairly modified design though and not much can be done with it that has not already been done.
> So it just depends on the requirement... worst case.. one can hire a few ex-USSR east european engineers and have them design something.



POF has let us down with their bullet's quality lately, especially the 9mm rounds.


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## Thəorətic Muslim

AUz said:


> 1) Gyms, body-building, and work-out for soldiers/officers!!!!......
> 2) Have our soldiers carry a kick-*** modern assault/battle rifle!
> ...



........... Your joking right? 

1) You want to compare a Dal & Roti diet with a Red Steak Meat, mash Potato, Hamburger infused diet?

Sure look at the Hollywood movies featuring Arnold Schwarzenegger throwing a Tomahawk missile with one hand or you could come back to reality and see the actual US Soldier. 

The average US Spec Operator isn't your brawn for show bodybuilder, hell most of the guys are built but lean.

Its Psychological factor that motivates a man to march 25km in 15 hours. The ability to *Disassociate* from the pain, uncomfortable, and grueling scenarios. Is what makes the best soldier. 

Whether you say genetics has more influence on body shape than diet or vice versa, its not about the body structure. A good soldiers knows how to use what he/she's got. 

I'm close to 5.8ish" 152 lb, (that's about 15 Km for you metric users  Skinny but lean. Come see me flip over dumb idiots who are 6.4" 190 lb. 

2) "You know, the enemy's always been terrified of noise" go compare a G3 to the M16.

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## RescueRanger

What is this I am reading about GYM's and Bodybuilding and Big Guns?

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## Armstrong

Th&#601;or&#601;tic Muslim said:


> I'm close to 5.8ish"



Shorty !  

I'm 5'8 too !  

But try flipping over the 6'3 200lb juggernaut that @RescueRanger is !

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## Informant

Lots a manlets here.

5'11 checking in

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## farhan_9909

Well i second AUZ.

soldier should atleast keep themselves fit.But in Pak army anyone who reaches major rank.His belly starts getting bigger and bigger


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## Armstrong

Informant said:


> Lots a manlets here.
> 
> 5'11 checking in



@RescueRanger - Did this guy just imply that I'm a midget ?

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## Informant

farhan_9909 said:


> Well i second AUZ.
> 
> soldier should atleast keep themselves fit.But in Pak army anyone who reaches major rank.His belly starts getting bigger and bigger



Bi money big plots big tidd


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## RescueRanger

Armstrong said:


> @RescueRanger - Did this guy just imply that I'm a midget ?



Sir

Manny Pacquiao is 5ft 6"
Jay dee Penn (one of the greatest MMA fighters) is 5.9
Sean Sherk (UFC Hall Of Fame) 5ft.6"
Jet Li (Not a full fighter) but he was Grand Master Champion Of Tumbling Fist Martial Art ( 5ft 5")
Height is not everything, tall guys need to protect them knees..

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## Armstrong

RescueRanger said:


> Sir
> 
> Manny Pacquiao is 5ft 6"
> Jay dee Penn (one of the greatest MMA fighters) is 5.9
> Sean Sherk (UFC Hall Of Fame) 5ft.6"
> Jet Li (Not a full fighter) but he was Grand Master Champion Of Tumbling Fist Martial Art ( 5ft 5")
> Height is not everything, tall guys need to protect them knees..



I say the same thing to myself 'its alright....its alright' when my 6'7 cousin takes the basket ball & just stands there as I flap around like an idiot trying to barely reach his elbow let alone the ball !  

But then I even the odds whenever we play Rugby - The taller you are the higher your center of gravity & the easier is it to tackle you !

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## Irfan Baloch

Aeronaut said:


> Any takers for the Ak-12?


didnt seem to impress the Russian army due to its defects in its initial trials and the fact that they already have AK 74s. Pakistan has all four extreme weather conditions almost round the whole year and a gun must be as robust as the standard AK 47.
not sure about the latest news about its performance but I dont see it replacing G3 anytime as a battle rifle. because of the initial setup costs are eye watering.



balixd said:


> Don't forget all those muscles will add extra weight for the soldiers to carry - can restrict the movements to a point too.


hehe , bigger muscles dont mean dead weight that means more power to carry weight. have you seen the 100 meters dash sprinters? they are rippling with muscles, are they any slow in their movements?
thrust to weight ratio buddy , thrust to weight. you get tired less, you have more oxygen in your body and you output more..

back to the guns by the way. the cheap but effective option is to adopt an AK family of guns while G3 is gradually phased out. forget the Western guns they are a pig to maintain.

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## Slav Defence

*Top 10 Combat Rifles*

The combat rifle is the soldier's closest companion. Despite the revolution in battlefield tactics over the past 100 years, it
is still the mainstay of every modern army in the world. Now meet the best of the best,
these are the top ten combat rifles of all time.

*10: M14*

Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Rifle
Caliber: 7.62 x 51 mm (.30 inch)
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,799 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 700-750 rounds per minute
By the end of World War II, with an American infantry platoon carrying as many as four different weapons -- and four types
of ammo -- the U.S. Army decided to develop a single weapon that could fulfill multiple roles. The result was the M14. First fielded in
1957, the rugged, accurate new rifle had plenty of stopping power with the standard NATO 7.62 mm round. It first saw major action in Vietnam, where soldiers liked its
performance but struggled with the weight of both gun and ammunition. Before long it
was phased out in favor of the lighter M16,but a few frontline units still use the classic weapon, primarily as a sniper rifle.
A U.S. Marine looks over his shoulder at the blazing thatched houses of Duc An, 60 miles
south of Da Nang, after a raid on the village

*9: Sturmgewehr 44*

Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Assault Rifle
Country of Origin: Germany
Caliber: 7.92 x 33 mm
Cartridge Capacity: 30 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,133 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 500 rounds per minute
The Wehrmacht hadn't been at war with the Soviet Union for long when it became clear that German infantry with their bolt-action
Mausers were often at a disadvantage in firefights with Russian automatic weapons.
In response, German armament developers came up with a revolutionary new weapon:
the first "assault rifle" (the literal translation of the German Sturmgewehr). The key to its
success was a shorter 7.92 mm round that allowed for effective automatic fire and permitted soldiers to carry sufficient
ammunition. The Sturmgewehr came too late to play a significant role in World War II, but it wins high marks for innovation.

*8: 1903 Springfield*

Type: Bolt-Action Rifle
Country of Origin: United States
Caliber: 7.62 x 63 mm (.30-06 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 5 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,700 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 10 rounds per minute
The relatively poor performance of the Norwegian Krag-Jorgensen rifle used by U.S. troops in the Spanish-American War led
American planners to look elsewhere for a standard infantry weapon. They "borrowed"
the more effective action found on the German 7mm Mauser, added a few modifications, and produced a magazine-fed rifle that boasted phenomenal accuracy.
The 1903 quickly gained a reputation as an outstandingly accurate and powerful firearm -- at the Battle of Belleau Wood in
1918, U.S. Marines armed with Springfields cut down enemy counterattacks from 700 to 800 yards away. The rifle continued in
service through World War II and Korea and even saw combat as a sniper rifle in Vietnam.

*7: Steyr Aug*

Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Bull-Pup Assault Rifle
Country of Origin: Austria
Caliber: 5.56 x 45 mm (.22 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 30 and 42 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 3,084 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 650 rounds per minute
Looking more like a weapon from a science- fiction movie, the Steyr's only serious "flaw"
is the advanced design that seemed to scare away potential customers after its introduction in 1977. In this radically new "bull-pup" configuration most of the barrel,receiver and action, instead of being in front of the operator's firing hand, is all moved back in the stock, resulting in a remarkably compact weapon that is light and easy to handle. The Steyr also features an interchangeable barrel system, a transparent magazine, and optional left or right shell ejection capability


----------



## Slav Defence

*Continue reading page 02

6: Mauser K98k Carbine*

Type: Bolt-Action Rifle
Country of Origin: Germany
Caliber: 7.92 x 57 mm (.30 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 5 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: approximately 2,822 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 10-15 rounds per minute 
First produced at the end of the 19th century, the Mauser 98 was the perfect synthesis of the many innovations that rifles had undergone during the late 19th
century: smokeless powder, clips that could be fed into magazines and, most of all, its superb bolt action that is still the basis for
most modern hunting rifles. The original model 98 was used during World War I to great effect, but when Germany started
rearming in the 1930s the rifle received upgrades that made it lighter and easier to sight and shoot. Inevitably outgunned by
automatic weapons, the Mauser
nevertheless stands as one of the legendary rifles of the modern age

*5: FN FAL*

Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Rifle
Country of Origin: Belgium
Caliber: 7.62 x 51 mm (.30 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 20 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,700 feet
per second
Rate of Fire: 650-700 rounds per minute
Inspired by the Sturmgewehr 44, the Belgian manufacturer Fabrique Nationale (FN) originally developed the FAL around the
same intermediate round used by the German gun, but when NATO issued the requirement for the longer 7.62 mm, FN altered the design and created a heavy hitter
that packs a punch -- and a potent kick. The FAL soon became one of the classic weapons of the Cold War, used by over 50 countries, even if it proved tough to handle
in full auto mode. The rifle gave good service to the Australian army in the jungles of Vietnam, to Israeli troops during the Six-Day
War and was used by both sides in the fight for the Falkland Islands.

*4: M1 Garand*

Type: Semiautomatic
Rifle Country of Origin: United States
Caliber: 7.62 x 63 mm (.30-06 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 8 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 2,838 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 30 rounds per minute
Adopted by the U.S. Army in 1936, the M1 Garand proved to be a tough, heavy battle rifle when it entered combat five years later.
General Patton remarked at the end of World War II that the M1 may have been the greatest battle implement ever devised. A bit
of a stretch perhaps, but there's no doubt that the M1 was the first successful semiautomatic rifle issued in any quantity that had the ruggedness and accuracy to
dominate the battlefield. Over 6.25 million Garands had been manufactured by the time
it was taken out of service in the early 1960s.

*3: Lee-enfield SMLE*

Type: Bolt-Action Rifle
Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Caliber: 7.7 x 56 mm (.30 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 10 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: approximately 2,438 feet
per second
Rate of Fire: 15-20 rounds per minute
The standard infantry weapon of British troops from World War I to the 1956 Suez crisis, the Lee-Enfield SMLE (pronounced"smelly") built its reputation on reliability,
accuracy and a phenomenal rate of fire. Its magazine carried 10 bullets, the largest capacity of any rifle on the battlefield during
the first half of the 20th century. Its short bolt action cocked on closing, and its muzzle cap prevented dirt from clogging the
weapon. In the hands of a well-trained infantryman, the Lee-Enfield could perform what was called the "mad minute," i.e., thirty rounds hitting a target 200 meters distant in one minute, a volume of fire that rivals
modern semiautomatic weapons.

*Continue Reading page 03

2: M16*

Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Assault Rifle
Country of Origin: United States
Caliber: 5.56 x 45 mm (.223 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 20-30 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: Approximately 3,281 feet
per second
Rate of Fire: 700-950 rounds per minute
Although it took a little time to work out the gun's jamming problems during its combat
trials in the early 1960s, the M16 has proven to be an outstanding performer with superb accuracy, handling, service length and
combat effectiveness. The rifle fulfilled the U.S. military's desire to develop a lightweight modern assault rifle that could replace the
semiautomatic M1 and its selective-fire counterpart, the M14. Its innovative features
include lighter metal alloy and plastic construction, a simple gas reload system and the use of 5.56 mm ammunition, allowing soldiers to carry twice the amount
of ammunition for the same weight of 7.62 mm rounds.
*1: AK-47*

Type: Semi or Fully Automatic Assault Rifle
Country of Origin: Soviet Union
Caliber: 7.62 x 39 mm (.30 inch)
Cartridge Capacity: 30 rounds
Muzzle Velocity: 2,329 feet per second
Rate of Fire: 600 rounds per minute
With over 75 million built worldwide, the AK-47 (a.k.a., "Kalashnikov") is a firearms
legend that has probably inflicted more lethal results than any other single weapon system ever produced. Built on the same
basic design as the German Sturmgewehr, it chambered an intermediate round and was
built from stamped parts. The AK-47 was not only easy to produce and relatively cheap, is also*
proved remarkably easy to maintain and virtually immune to conditions that could easily take out other guns. Accuracy is
average, but the Kalashnikov compensates for this with its ability to unleash a lethal wall of lead.*


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## Amaa'n

Informant said:


> POF has let us down with their bullet's quality lately, especially the 9mm rounds.


that was just one batch and happened very recently.
I personally use 9mm 1z allot and found them better then Chinese 9mm, its a different thing, i somehow got 2009 batch from somewhere

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## Informant

Armstrong said:


> @RescueRanger - Did this guy just imply that I'm a midget ?



Short guys are hard to take seriously, my friend in college was 5'3. Had a big *** afro. When he shaved that bad boy i was rolling in tears. Short people are cute 



balixd said:


> that was just one batch and happened very recently.
> I personally use 9mm 1z allot and found them better then Chinese 9mm, its a different thing, i somehow got 2009 batch from somewhere



I use S&B which is the only option we have, NATO 9mm is too hot and most of the new ones are counterfeit. I have been looking for tracers, know a place in Lahore?

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## ayibarishi

This is my wish...















RFB | Rifles | Kel-tec

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## Thəorətic Muslim

Irfan Baloch said:


> hehe , bigger muscles dont mean dead weight that means more power to carry weight. have you seen the 100 meters dash sprinters? they are rippling with muscles, are they any slow in their movements?
> thrust to weight ratio buddy , thrust to weight. you get tired less, you have more oxygen in your body and you output more..



Maj. Gen. Mario, all those years chasing Princess Peach has caused you to forget Anatomy. 

3 Types of Muscles: 

Smooth, involuntary muscles mostly within organs
Skeleton, anchored to the bones (Muscles of Sprinters)
Type I, "Red, Slow Twitch" Carry Oxygen and sustained aerobic exercise 
Type II, "Fast Twitch" contract quickly, very powerfully but easy to strain, provide only short, anaerobic bursts of activity before muscle contraction becomes painful (What you see in Sprinters)

Cardiac, Heart

It comes down to developing the right balance of each certain muscle and developing it to constantly provide nothing less.


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## Irfan Baloch

Th&#601;or&#601;tic Muslim said:


> Maj. Gen. Mario, all those years chasing Princess Peach has caused you to forget Anatomy.
> 
> 3 Types of Muscles:
> 
> Smooth, involuntary muscles mostly within organs
> Skeleton, anchored to the bones (Muscles of Sprinters)
> Type I, "Red, Slow Twitch" Carry Oxygen and sustained aerobic exercise
> Type II, "Fast Twitch" contract quickly, very powerfully but easy to strain, provide only short, anaerobic bursts of activity before muscle contraction becomes painful (What you see in Sprinters)
> 
> Cardiac, Heart
> 
> It comes down to developing the right balance of each certain muscle and developing it to constantly provide nothing less.



now you tell me?

damn all that pumping iron and throwing out after hard drills could have been streamlined had I read this noble post before. have you checked the physique of a typical US or UK marine? generous biceps and thighs, broad shoulders pick up a heavy kit on the back and do a quick march for many miles and can dig up a fox hole within a matter of minutes.



ayibarishi said:


> This is my wish...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RFB | Rifles | Kel-tec


how does it deal with the elements? mud, spoil, sand , snow? heat, cold? moisture? water? not asking for a full AK 47 style dipping and soaking into pool of mud and sand but talking about an occasional or short amount of contact.

other concern I have is its field repair and service.


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## krash

Armstrong said:


> But then I even the odds whenever we play Rugby - The taller you are the higher your center of gravity & the easier is it to tackle you !



Which position do you play at, 7s, 15s? Played for any clubs?

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## Armstrong

krash said:


> Which position do you play at, 7s, 15s? Played for any clubs?



Dude I don't do any of that, I play Rugby the way a newbie plays Snooker - Without any idea about the proper nomenclature of any of the things or the finer points of the game ! 

I just use my upper body strength to bulldoze my way through whenever we - friends or cousins - play it; they play Rugby for some club here in Lahore DHA the name of which I don't know !

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## Informant

Armstrong said:


> Dude I don't do any of that, I play Rugby the way a newbie plays Snooker - Without any idea about the proper nomenclature of any of the things or the finer points of the game !
> 
> I just use my upper body strength to bulldoze my way through whenever we - friends or cousins - play it; they play Rugby for some club here in Lahore DHA the name of which I don't know !



Dude you play rugby, how cute! hahah sorry im on a killstreak tonight

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## krash

Armstrong said:


> Dude I don't do any of that, I play Rugby the way a newbie plays Snooker - Without any idea about the proper nomenclature of any of the things or the finer points of the game !
> 
> I just use my upper body strength to bulldoze my way through whenever we - friends or cousins - play it; they play Rugby for some club here in Lahore DHA the name of which I don't know !



Hahaha fair enough! Btw that club would be the LRFC, pretty good for Pakistani standards, in fact the best we have along with the Jinns.

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## Kompromat

Sig-716.

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## A1Kaid

peshawar said:


> 5.56 means the person you hit aint going to be down after getting hit
> its stopping power is lowers
> pakistan army is fighting a very determined enemy
> if if injured he is going to fight back till death
> which means 5.56 aint the best caliber which means 7.62 is better
> BESIDE USA AND NATO IS GOING TO SHIFT TOWARDS 6.8MM cause 5.56 AINT GOOD ENOUGH
> beside M4 has a serious jamming problem






> 5.56 means the person you hit aint going to be down after getting hit
> its stopping power is lowers



The 5.56 NATO round stopping power is lower than the 7.62 but for every 7.62 round you precisely fire you can fire multiple 5.56 rounds, and it's stopping power is effective at most combat or fire fight ranges. Also I find it easier to engage multiple targets and deliver follow up shots with a 5.56 round, with a 7.62 round I would recommend the Army use muzzle breaks but that wouldn't be cost effective.




> beside M4 has a serious jamming problem



Source? Many of the mil-spec M4's have forward assist and if a jam does occur should be easy to resolve. The G3 also has suffered jams in several tests and situations.



> BESIDE USA AND NATO IS GOING TO SHIFT TOWARDS 6.8MM



Not sure if that is true news, but the 6.8 mm Remington is a good mid-way caliber, it has benefits of both the 5.56 and 7.62 caliber.[/quote]



Aeronaut said:


> Sig-716.




Just a copy of the Armalite and Colt Ar-15, though I do like this weapon a lot one of the most versatile battlefield weapons.


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## Neptune

It's a copy of CM901


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## ameen farooq123

I think Pakistan is better off getting a license to manufacture new ak variants from Russia


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## Icarus

ameen farooq123 said:


> I think Pakistan is better off getting a license to manufacture new ak variants from Russia




We have a working version of the AKM and get the T-56C from the Chinese, all AK variants work on broadly the same internals, all that's needed is superficial upgrades which we can implement for ourselves but the reason we stick with the G3 is that its much more accurate, has a more powerful round and has greater range.


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## ameen farooq123

Yes but it is heavier and Is unreliable. Not to mention it has a very bad kick making it tiring for the user on the other hand akm is lighter and being Russian is easier to maintain it also has automatic fire and is fairly accurate at medium distance then again its my opinion

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## Icarus

ameen farooq123 said:


> Yes but it is heavier and Is unreliable. Not to mention it has a very bad kick making it tiring for the user on the other hand akm is lighter and being Russian is easier to maintain it also has automatic fire and is fairly accurate at medium distance




The T-56 is tacky, pretty tacky but at US$100 per piece, its really not much to complain about. The Pakistani AKM was supposed to go into production but the economies of scale meant that it was a financially unsound project before it even began.


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## ameen farooq123

Well I can't argue with that considering our army is big and needs a cheap rifle

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## Khan_patriot

Black Stone said:


> I don't think we would provide you the M4.


we can buy a variant from some other country, colt is not the only company providing m4 type weapons....

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## A1Kaid

Khan_patriot said:


> we can buy a variant from some other country, colt is not the only company providing m4 type weapons....




Onus should be on POF to manufacture a new battle rifle, original or replica design does not matter as long as it is effective.


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## airmarshal

If Pakistan needs a new rifle, why doesn't POF design one? A design based on needs, environment and types of challenges.


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## farhan_9909

Why not a ak74U?


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## Zarvan

farhan_9909 said:


> Why not a ak74U?


Man you seriously need to get updated even Russia is replacing AK-74 and AK-74 you is small size gun and Russia is going to get AK-12

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## Hakan

This an Ak that fires 7.62x51. Its not the most accurate battle rifle but you get that AK reliability and ease of use at a low cost.


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## ameen farooq123

Pof should design a rifle that fires a 6.8 mm round can work in both low and high temperatures and and is easy to maintain


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## he-man

Zarvan said:


> Man you seriously need to get updated even Russia is replacing AK-74 and AK-74 you is small size gun and Russia is going to get AK-12



As of now russia has decided against ak-12


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## SipahSalar

We need to replace G3 ASAP. There were far too many reports of the G3 jamming during the Kargil Conflict. Also i rarely see the rifle being used in the conflict vs TTP. Whats the point of making this ancient weapon? Can't we get a license for something better?


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## Zarvan

One of the classical photos also General Kiyani has latest POF upgraded G3 Gun with him


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## Talwar e Pakistan

The G3 was chosen because it was the ideal weapons to fight the Indians with because of its long range, sturdiness and the fact that its cheap. Its a perfect weapon for long range combat in was very common in 1971/1999 wars, and the most recent border skirmishes with India. But in close range combat its like clearing a building with a long musket. The length of the gun renders it barely useful in CQC. Pak Army is in a mess right now, instantly switching from conventional warfare to unconventional warfare. Although there are some MP-95s that are present in the war in Northwest Pakistan the G3 is still the standard and dominant rifle in the conflict. Should we replace our standard rifle with a rifle that is relevant in both conventional and unconventional warfare?


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## C130

M4 is probably the most balanced 
but I would say

M4
HK-416
AUG
AK-74U


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## Khalid Newazi

C130 said:


> M4 is probably the most balanced
> but I would say
> 
> M4
> HK-416
> AUG
> AK-74U



M4 jams too much
HK-416 is too expensive although it's the best option (so, only for Special forces)
AUG is affordable
AK-74U is much cheaper and lighter


----------



## C130

Khalid Newazi said:


> M4 jams too much
> HK-416 is too expensive although it's the best option (so, only for Special forces)
> AUG is affordable
> AK-74U is much cheaper and lighter




M4 jams to much


----------



## Ray_of_Hope

C130 said:


> M4 is probably the most balanced


We already have M4 not only with SSG but also with some regular units in FATA



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> The G3 was chosen because it was the ideal weapons to fight the Indians with because of its long range, sturdiness and the fact that its cheap. Its a perfect weapon for long range combat in was very common in 1971/1999 wars, and the most recent border skirmishes with India. But in close range combat its like clearing a building with a long musket. The length of the gun renders it barely useful in CQC. Pak Army is in a mess right now, instantly switching from conventional warfare to unconventional warfare. Although there are some MP-95s that are present in the war in Northwest Pakistan the G3 is still the standard and dominant rifle in the conflict. _*Should we replace our standard rifle with a rifle that is relevant in both conventional and unconventional warfare?*_


We _*cannot*_ have a single gun for both conventional and unconventional roles.Different variants of the same gun can be used though.
G3 can be replaced with turkish MPT76.While AK`s and M4`s already are doing good in unconventional warfare


----------



## Zarvan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> The G3 was chosen because it was the ideal weapons to fight the Indians with because of its long range, sturdiness and the fact that its cheap. Its a perfect weapon for long range combat in was very common in 1971/1999 wars, and the most recent border skirmishes with India. But in close range combat its like clearing a building with a long musket. The length of the gun renders it barely useful in CQC. Pak Army is in a mess right now, instantly switching from conventional warfare to unconventional warfare. Although there are some MP-95s that are present in the war in Northwest Pakistan the G3 is still the standard and dominant rifle in the conflict. Should we replace our standard rifle with a rifle that is relevant in both conventional and unconventional warfare?


Well we should but it seem POF has done some major changes in G3 for its current needs


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## Sugarcane

Replace it with nuclear guns.

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## Zarvan

LoveIcon said:


> Replace it with nuclear guns.


And test them on you


----------



## Sugarcane

Zarvan said:


> And test them on you



LoveIcon is one and only, so can't take chances but there are many like you and your friends on whom we are already testing many weapons, test one more weapon will not make any difference


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## Kompromat

C130 said:


> M4 is probably the most balanced
> but I would say
> 
> M4
> HK-416
> AUG
> AK-74U



Pakistan should go for either SCAR-H or HK-417. Right now, i don't think that there is any plan to replace those battle rifles. However when we do, we need to get the best on the market because we will use them for next 40 odd years.


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## Selous

I think that any future weapon that PA adopts should be based on the AK (i.e long stroke gas piston, simple design, rugged, reliable etc)...the 7.62 x 51 should NOT be replaced by the 5.56 x 45. Pakistan needs to develop a rifle with interchangeable calibers (7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 39 preferably) for different purposes. The barrel for the 7.62 x 39 should be short for CQB. An alternative for CQB could be a HK MP7 style SMG chambered in 7.62 x 25 (.30 bore).
The Turkish MPT also looks good.
I however don't believe in the "bulk of fire" philosophy that is so common these days...I believe that marksmanship needs to be emphasized. For that purpose the G3 is still brilliant.


----------



## Khalid Newazi

war khan said:


> We already have M4 not only with SSG but also with some regular units in FATA
> 
> 
> We _*cannot*_ have a single gun for both conventional and unconventional roles.Different variants of the same gun can be used though.
> G3 can be replaced with turkish MPT76.While AK`s and M4`s already are doing good in unconventional warfare


Yes it does, Google it.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

C130 said:


> M4 is probably the most balanced
> but I would say
> 
> M4
> HK-416
> AUG
> AK-74U





Khalid Newazi said:


> M4 jams too much
> HK-416 is too expensive although it's the best option (so, only for Special forces)
> AUG is affordable
> AK-74U is much cheaper and lighter


Has anyone defined the PA's requirements for an assault refile and where/how the G-3 (or its upgraded versions) fail to meet to those requirements and whether the rifles mentioned above (or any others) would do a significantly better job of meeting those requirements?

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## Armstrong

We can only get a new rifle for the army if @Horus @Jazzbot @Oscar @LoveIcon @dexter and @Hyperion start paying taxes ! 

Right now all the tax burden is on my shoulders !

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## Kompromat

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> Has anyone defined the PA's requirements for an assault refile and where/how the G-3 (or its upgraded versions) fail to meet to those requirements and whether the rifles mentioned above (or any others) would do a significantly better job of meeting those requirements?



Above all, Army would like to stick to 7.62mm rounds


----------



## Sugarcane

Armstrong said:


> We can only get a new rifle for the army if @Horus @Jazzbot @Oscar @LoveIcon @dexter and @Hyperion start paying taxes !
> 
> Right now all the tax burden is on my shoulders !



I am non-resident

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Horus said:


> Above all, Army would like to stick to 7.62mm rounds


I have the same read on the Army's caliber preference, but I assume there are certain other limitations to the G-3 that spark off these frequent discussions on changing the PA's standard assault rifle. I am trying to understand what exactly these limitations are, both currently and with an eye on longer term infantry related changes, and whether any of the currently available solutions offer significant improvements on those limitations.


----------



## Armstrong

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I have the same read on the Army's caliber preference, but I assume there are certain other limitations to the G-3 that spark off these frequent discussions on changing the PA's standard assault rifle. I am trying to understand what exactly these limitations are, both currently and with an eye on longer term infantry related changes, and whether any of the currently available solutions offer significant improvements on those limitations.



Its heavier, ill-suited for CQBs and packs a mean recoil, than its contemporaries !

But its still fairly accurate, the recoil issue has been addressed by firing it at semi-auto instead of full burst and some of its sleeker versions with hand grips etc. have been come up with.

Though its still a '50s designs and you can only do so much with it before you're gonna have to replace it with something better if you want to improve in different parameters that standard rifles are gauged against.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Armstrong said:


> Its heavier, ill-suited for CQBs and packs a mean recoil, than its contemporaries !
> 
> But its still fairly accurate, the recoil issue has been addressed by firing it at semi-auto instead of full burst and some of its sleeker versions with hand grips etc. have been come up with.


That is sort of what I was getting at - some of the limitations could be addressed by POF developed/adopted variants of the G-3. Plastic/composite furniture for reduced weight and Day/night scopes could be made standard across the infantry perhaps.


> Though its still a '50s designs and you can only do so much with it before you're gonna have to replace it with something better if you want to improve in different parameters that standard rifles are gauged against.


What kinds of parameters? I assume we could break them down into two broad sets - technical and (for lack of a better word) ergonomic perhaps?

On the technical side you'd list caliber, effective range (against various kinds of targets), RoF, performance in poor ambient conditions (dust, moisture, heat, cold etc.)

On the 'ergonomics' side you'd probably want to assess 'usability' in terms of the frequency of care required while operating in various conditions, how easily and/or quickly the rifle could be maneuvered into a firing position (for an average soldier in various positions - walking, kneeling, prone, crawling), time required to maneuver rifle into a firing position AND get off an accurate shot etc.

Feel free to add, correct any of the above. I don't usually venture into conventional military discussions and this is a purely layman's view of things.

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## Kompromat

AgNoStiC MuSliM said:


> I have the same read on the Army's caliber preference, but I assume there are certain other limitations to the G-3 that spark off these frequent discussions on changing the PA's standard assault rifle. I am trying to understand what exactly these limitations are, both currently and with an eye on longer term infantry related changes, and whether any of the currently available solutions offer significant improvements on those limitations.



A next generation frame would have to be made of lighter composite polymer. It must have good ergonomics, ambidextrous controls, ability to switch barrels of different lengths, pica tinny rail systems for optics, sights, lights and lasers, and it must perform in harsh weather conditions and must be controllable in full auto. 

HK-417A2







FN-SCAR-H






These two are the best in business in PA cartridge category. Both are worthy replacement of the G-3s.

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## Neptune

MPT-76 is a derivative of H&K-417. Unlike T-129, no third party issues this time.

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## Armstrong

Neptune said:


> MPT-76 is a derivative of H&K-417. Unlike T-129, no third party issues this time.



Does it come in orange ?

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## Path-Finder

Neptune said:


> MPT-76 is a derivative of H&K-417. Unlike T-129, no third party issues this time.



What is the sight attached to the picatinny rail?


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## Selous

Path-Finder said:


> What is the sight attached to the picatinny rail?


It is ugly isn't it.


----------



## Path-Finder

Selous said:


> It is ugly isn't it.



Don't care about ugly, AK47 is ugly yet most reliable. Just want details about it any member know?


----------



## tarrar

In my opinion yes, G3 should be replaced & something similar to M4 should be used by our PA. POF should make a new assault rifle similar to M4 or FN SCAR or something equivalent.


----------



## Shot-Caller

Path-Finder said:


> Don't care about ugly, AK47 is ugly yet most reliable. Just want details about it any member know?


AK-47 is the meanest looking of them all. Its beautiful.


----------



## dexter

Armstrong said:


> We can only get a new rifle for the army if @Horus @Jazzbot @Oscar @LoveIcon @dexter and @Hyperion start paying taxes !
> 
> Right now all the tax burden is on my shoulders !



Chacha adhe pakistan ka tax to sirf hum Karachites dete hen  (Ab dil me mat lelega)
Right now other important things should be considered specially our navy.
Aks , G3s and M4s are really doing good against those cowards in operation Zarb-e-Azb.

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Pakistan should go for either SCAR-H or HK-417. Right now, i don't think that there is any plan to replace those battle rifles. However when we do, we need to get the best on the market because we will use them for next 40 odd years.


I prefer SCAR-H and can't say for sure although they have done massive changes to G3 but our General can all of a Sudden change there mind


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## RAMPAGE

Neptune said:


> MPT-76 is a derivative of H&K-417. Unlike T-129, no third party issues this time.


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## Zarvan

This is the latest version of G3 being produced by POF

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## Talwar e Pakistan

war khan said:


> We already have M4 not only with SSG but also with some regular units in FATA
> 
> 
> We _*cannot*_ have a single gun for both conventional and unconventional roles.Different variants of the same gun can be used though.
> G3 can be replaced with turkish MPT76.While AK`s and M4`s already are doing good in unconventional warfare



First off SSG's only use M4's in *IMPORTANT* combat missions. You'll usually see em with Ak-47s, Ak-74s or Ak-101. But still most units in FATA still use G3's and Ak-47s.

Secondly, of course we can. There are guns like the Bushmaster ACR which are suitable for both roles. Finding a gun which can fit both roles will be much easier, cheaper and efficient for the Pakistani Army. The Pakistani army is trained using multiple weapons, using a single gun will be easier for the Army.



Zarvan said:


> Well we should but it seem POF has done some major changes in G3 for its current needs



Norway is doing a much better job.

They use G3's in Afghanistan and have modified it for unconventional warfare. If we cannot replace the G3 we should still be able to modify and upgrade it.








Zarvan said:


> View attachment 180019
> 
> View attachment 180020
> 
> This is the latest version of G3 being produced by POF


I havent seen anything like that in the hands of Pakistani Soldiers yet. I live in Sialkot Cantonment, every gun is either a plain ak-74 or a G3.

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## Zarvan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> First off SSG's only use M4's in *IMPORTANT* combat missions. You'll usually see em with Ak-47s, Ak-74s or Ak-101. But still most units in FATA still use G3's and Ak-47s.
> 
> Secondly, of course we can. There are guns like the Bushmaster ACR which are suitable for both roles. Finding a gun which can fit both roles will be much easier, cheaper and efficient for the Pakistani Army. The Pakistani army is trained using multiple weapons, using a single gun will be easier for the Army.
> 
> 
> 
> Norway is doing a much better job.
> 
> They use G3's in Afghanistan and have modified it for unconventional warfare. If we cannot replace the G3 we should still be able to modify and upgrade it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I havent seen anything like that in the hands of Pakistani Soldiers yet. I live in Sialkot Cantonment, every gun is either a plain ak-74 or a G3.


Well its relatively new and would come after some time
@Horus Can you take interview of senior Army and ask him about future plans for our maim Gun and weather we would give this new G3M to our soldiers or replace G3 with some new Gun


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## RescueRanger

The G3 is still a reliable battle rifle and as far as replacing the main battle rifle for an entire army as large as Pakistan, lets just consider how our tendering and trial system works, this is no easy task and will not be an overnight project. I don't expect to see an immediate replacement from G3 to Norinco SMG 7.62 anytime soon.

Britain used the L1A1 variant of the FN FAL till the 1980's when it was replaced with the locally manufactured L85, a weapon notorious for it's troublesome gas parts and flimsy plastic construction. It wasn't until 2002 that 200,000 of the L85 variants were upgraded with H&K receivers and the SUSAT was replaced with modern ACOG CQB sights.

The only problem I see with the G3 is recoil when fired full auto and long barrel size when considering CQB, apart from that as far as battle rifles go, it's not that bad. Just my humble opinion.

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## AUz

RescueRanger said:


> The G3 is still a reliable battle rifle and as far as replacing the main battle rifle for an entire army as large as Pakistan, lets just consider how our tendering and trial system works, this is no easy task and will not be an overnight project. I don't expect to see an immediate replacement from G3 to Norinco SMG 7.62 anytime soon.
> 
> Britain used the L1A1 variant of the FN FAL till the 1980's when it was replaced with the locally manufactured L85, a weapon notorious for it's troublesome gas parts and flimsy plastic construction. It wasn't until 2002 that 200,000 of the L85 variants were upgraded with H&K receivers and the SUSAT was replaced with modern ACOG CQB sights.
> 
> The only problem I see with the G3 is recoil when fired full auto and long barrel size when considering CQB, apart from that as far as battle rifles go, it's not that bad. Just my humble opinion.



G3 is heavy, massive recoil, uncomfortably long, and with very compromising range...

Compared to the rifles of modern armies, standard G3 just doesn't hold it...

I don't know why we can't develop a good small arms industry. Very sad state of affairs.

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## Talwar e Pakistan

AUz said:


> G3 is heavy, massive recoil, uncomfortably long, and with very compromising range...
> 
> Compared to the rifles of modern armies, standard G3 just doesn't hold it...
> 
> I don't know why we can't develop a good small arms industry. Very sad state of affairs.



Pakistan is getting there, POF cant perform miracles.

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## Max Pain

AUz said:


> G3 is heavy, massive recoil, uncomfortably long, and with very compromising range...
> 
> Compared to the rifles of modern armies, standard G3 just doesn't hold it...
> 
> I don't know why we can't develop a good small arms industry. Very sad state of affairs.



Pakistan is the biggest Arms exporter in south east Asia,
our arms industry is quite strong,
and what you stated about G 3 is sheer exaggeration,
its only unsuitable for close quarters,
and most soldiers tend to have a much favorable opinion of this weapon,
its wayy better than Type 56



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> First off SSG's only use M4's in *IMPORTANT* combat missions. You'll usually see em with Ak-47s, Ak-74s or Ak-101. But still most units in FATA still use G3's and Ak-47s.
> 
> Secondly, of course we can. There are guns like the Bushmaster ACR which are suitable for both roles. Finding a gun which can fit both roles will be much easier, cheaper and efficient for the Pakistani Army. The Pakistani army is trained using multiple weapons, using a single gun will be easier for the Army.
> 
> 
> 
> Norway is doing a much better job.
> 
> They use G3's in Afghanistan and have modified it for unconventional warfare. If we cannot replace the G3 we should still be able to modify and upgrade it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I havent seen anything like that in the hands of Pakistani Soldiers yet. I live in Sialkot Cantonment, every gun is either a plain ak-74 or a G3.




I live in Rawalpindi and yes Ive seen this variant there,
nowadays i do see regular soldiers holding this weapon,


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## AUz

Max Pain said:


> Pakistan is the biggest Arms exporter in south east Asia,



lol wut?


> our arms industry is quite strong,



Yup. compared to subsaharan Africa may be.



> and what you stated about G 3 is sheer exaggeration,



Nope.

What I said is absolutely true.

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## Max Pain

AUz said:


> lol wut?
> 
> 
> Yup. compared to subsaharan Africa may be.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> What I said is absolutely true.


k


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## Zarvan

AUz said:


> lol wut?
> 
> 
> Yup. compared to subsaharan Africa may be.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> What I said is absolutely true.


To Malaysia we have exported both Anza and Baktar Shikan and there is potential of lot more.


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## RescueRanger

AUz said:


> G3 is heavy, massive recoil, uncomfortably long, and with very compromising range...
> 
> Compared to the rifles of modern armies, standard G3 just doesn't hold it...
> 
> I don't know why we can't develop a good small arms industry. Very sad state of affairs.




Halwa samaj rakha hain kay?


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## Zarvan

RescueRanger said:


> Halwa samaj rakha hain kay?


At least we can go for Turkish one because they were also using G 3 as their main Gun and now replacing it with new one made in Turkey and obviously it would be a lot better than G3 that is why they are going for it.

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## Bossman

It is all about the caliber, 5.56 MM is a failure. Pakistan will stick with 7.62 mm for the time being


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## Zarvan

*Eurosatory 2014: MKEK delivers first MPT-76 rifles to Turkey*
*Nicholas de Larrinaga, Paris* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
18 June 2014






MKEK displayed its MPT-76 7.62 mm battle rifle at Eurosatory 2014 Source: Nick de Larrinaga
Turkey's Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (Makina ve Kimya Endüstrisi Kurumu - MKEK) has completed deliveries of an initial 200 MPT-76 battle rifles to the Turkish Army for testing and evaluation, the company told _IHS Jane's_ at Eurosatory 2014 in Paris, France, on 17 June.

*The new 7.62 mm chambered rifle is intended to become the Turkish Armed Forces' new standard infantry weapon, and has been developed under contract from the Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (Savunma Sanayii Müstesarligi - SSM) for the Turkish Army, which favours the 7.62 mm NATO round over the smaller 5.56 mm round.*

An initial delivery to the Turkish Armed Forces of a first test and evaluation batch of 200 units was completed in June, a company spokesperson told _IHS Jane's_ . This delivery followed on from the completion of design qualification tests at the end of 2013, and the company is expecting to complete production line qualification within the next few months.

Following feedback from the Turkish Armed Forces on the performance of the weapon in testing, the MKEK will modify the design of the rifle and then deliver a further 5,000 units for a second round of more general testing and evaluation across the Turkish Armed Forces. The spokesperson stated he expected the deliveries of the second batch of rifles would occur towards the end of this year.

The Turkish Armed Forces has a potential requirement for as many as 500,000 MPT-76's, principally for the Turkish Army, but also to equip personnel across its other service arms.

*A decision on whether to fully adopt the MPT-76 as the Turkish Armed Forces' new service rifle (replacing the H&K G3 and G33) will be made by the Turkish Armed Forces and the Executive Committee (EC) of the SSM. The company is hopeful that a positive decision for full-scale production will be made by the EC in 2015. Currently MKEK has only the capability to produce 15,000 weapons a year, so it may need to expand its production facilities or license production to partners should a full-scale production order be received from Turkey.*

Milli Piyade Tüfegi (MPT) means national infantry rifle in Turkish, and the company is keen to flag up that this has been the first automatic weapon that the company has indigenously designed. Although MKEK has long produced weapons for the Turkish Armed Forces, historically they have been created under license from German manufacturer Heckler & Koch (HK).

*Like many modern infantry weapons, the MPT-76 is based on the AR-10/15 design, but features a short-stroke gas-piston system similar to that found in the HK417. The rifle does, however, feature several differences to the HK417, with the piston system being designed without a spring and ring, and the rotating bolt features a single ejector to the HK417's two.*

The MPT-76 features a 406 mm (16 inches) cold hammer forged barrel free floating with a 1:10 right hand twist. The upper and lower receivers of the weapon are firmed of milled aluminium, with the upper receiver featuring a full-length MIL-STD 1913 Picatinny rail and for the Turkish requirement the weapon is fitted with a distinctive carrying handle and a folding front and rear sight. Rails can also be installed on the bottom and sides of the weapon, which was displayed featuring an integrated angled grip, and a vertical grip / retractable bipod.

The total weapon length is 900 mm (when the 12-point retractable buttstock is in the shortest position) and the weapon weighs 4.18 kg.

*Click here for all IHS Jane's Eurosatory content*
@AUz @Hakan @Neptune @cabatli_53 @RescueRanger @Bossman @Horus @WebMaster @sandy_3126
This Gun has same caliber which we use

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## cabatli_53

Zarvan said:


> *Eurosatory 2014: MKEK delivers first MPT-76 rifles to Turkey*
> *Nicholas de Larrinaga, Paris* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 18 June 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MKEK displayed its MPT-76 7.62 mm battle rifle at Eurosatory 2014 Source: Nick de Larrinaga
> Turkey's Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (Makina ve Kimya Endüstrisi Kurumu - MKEK) has completed deliveries of an initial 200 MPT-76 battle rifles to the Turkish Army for testing and evaluation, the company told _IHS Jane's_ at Eurosatory 2014 in Paris, France, on 17 June.
> 
> *The new 7.62 mm chambered rifle is intended to become the Turkish Armed Forces' new standard infantry weapon, and has been developed under contract from the Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (Savunma Sanayii Müstesarligi - SSM) for the Turkish Army, which favours the 7.62 mm NATO round over the smaller 5.56 mm round.*
> 
> An initial delivery to the Turkish Armed Forces of a first test and evaluation batch of 200 units was completed in June, a company spokesperson told _IHS Jane's_ . This delivery followed on from the completion of design qualification tests at the end of 2013, and the company is expecting to complete production line qualification within the next few months.
> 
> Following feedback from the Turkish Armed Forces on the performance of the weapon in testing, the MKEK will modify the design of the rifle and then deliver a further 5,000 units for a second round of more general testing and evaluation across the Turkish Armed Forces. The spokesperson stated he expected the deliveries of the second batch of rifles would occur towards the end of this year.
> 
> The Turkish Armed Forces has a potential requirement for as many as 500,000 MPT-76's, principally for the Turkish Army, but also to equip personnel across its other service arms.
> 
> *A decision on whether to fully adopt the MPT-76 as the Turkish Armed Forces' new service rifle (replacing the H&K G3 and G33) will be made by the Turkish Armed Forces and the Executive Committee (EC) of the SSM. The company is hopeful that a positive decision for full-scale production will be made by the EC in 2015. Currently MKEK has only the capability to produce 15,000 weapons a year, so it may need to expand its production facilities or license production to partners should a full-scale production order be received from Turkey.*
> 
> Milli Piyade Tüfegi (MPT) means national infantry rifle in Turkish, and the company is keen to flag up that this has been the first automatic weapon that the company has indigenously designed. Although MKEK has long produced weapons for the Turkish Armed Forces, historically they have been created under license from German manufacturer Heckler & Koch (HK).
> 
> *Like many modern infantry weapons, the MPT-76 is based on the AR-10/15 design, but features a short-stroke gas-piston system similar to that found in the HK417. The rifle does, however, feature several differences to the HK417, with the piston system being designed without a spring and ring, and the rotating bolt features a single ejector to the HK417's two.*
> 
> The MPT-76 features a 406 mm (16 inches) cold hammer forged barrel free floating with a 1:10 right hand twist. The upper and lower receivers of the weapon are firmed of milled aluminium, with the upper receiver featuring a full-length MIL-STD 1913 Picatinny rail and for the Turkish requirement the weapon is fitted with a distinctive carrying handle and a folding front and rear sight. Rails can also be installed on the bottom and sides of the weapon, which was displayed featuring an integrated angled grip, and a vertical grip / retractable bipod.
> 
> The total weapon length is 900 mm (when the 12-point retractable buttstock is in the shortest position) and the weapon weighs 4.18 kg.
> 
> *Click here for all IHS Jane's Eurosatory content*
> @AUz @Hakan @Neptune @cabatli_53 @RescueRanger @Bossman @Horus @WebMaster @sandy_3126
> This Gun has same caliber which we use




Trials


















MPT-76 in N. Cyprus Turkish Republic army






MPT-76 at Turkish special forces

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## asker

HK 416 (3000 dollars) for special forces and m4( 968 dollars) for other army units I suggest


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## Superboy

I vote QBZ-95. Very deadly. 5.8 by 42 is new and lethal. HK-417 IMO lacks muzzle velocity. Any other good choice?

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## Superboy

Heckler & Koch HK417 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Path-Finder

FN SCAR 7.62x51


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## Red Spinifex

The answer is simple. Don't replace the hard-hitting 7.62mm NATO G3 rifle for some trifling peashooter in 5.56mm.

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## fatman17

This topic has been discussed previously in detail. Why start it again. Close please.


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## Imran Khan

every year pdf try to change it lolzzz?

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## Colt-4-1

I vote for the HK417 but as far as my knowledge goes, Army is inducting the Norinco Type 56...


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## Xn Jin

the gun in my display


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## Manticore

Moved and added 3 more poll options


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## Manticore




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## Amaa'n

these should be enough to keep some of your calm for next few months --- G-3 is old but not ineffective

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## senses

^ Damn at first i was like wow then i realized they are G3 rifiles, damn those accessories make it look like a total badass.


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## aaqib khan pakistani

Pak army should change to h&k 417 instead of g3 and fn scar for ssg and other special forces because these weapons are hell good.


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## Saifullah

Well many guys are asking to change the Army's main Weapon. So lets compare with given Replacements:

Name *HKG3* _ HK417_ _SCAR-H Standard MKEK MPT76 _

Weight *4.1 kg (9.04 lb) (G3A3)* _4.400 kg (9.70 lb)_ _ 3.58 kg (7.9 lb)_ 4.1 kg (9.0 lb)
Length *1,025 mm (40.4 in) (G3A3)* _994 mm (39.1 in)_ _1,067 mm (42.0 in)_ 920 mm (36 in)
Barrel *450 mm (17.7 in)*  _419 mm (16.5 in)_ _400 mm (16 in)_ 410 mm (16 in)

Note: Weight of Rifles are without mag.

Conclusion :
1- All are above 4KG except Scar-H cause of plastic body which could end up being unreliable in battle field.
2- Over all Length of all the rifles are same.
3- G3 have the most barrel length, its good and bad. Most barrel length means better accuracy and i can bet on that G3 is very very very accurate wep and all the others may be like the same or less.
4- G3 is most reliable Wep in these given replacement. its a Fact!!!
5- Kick is almost same with all of them, all uncontrollable for untrained.

So what are we gona get by replacing the Main battle rifle by any of these. Nothing

Personal Wishes:
1- POF should come with some polymer based handguard which should like FN- ScarH handguard, it will be easy to replace, no need to change the rifle, just push pin and change the handguard and use some light weight smaller Picatinny rail on top like Norwegian Army AG3(their G3 Variant) and don't use retractable stock its just gona increase the weight nothing else.
2- Barrel length should be decreased with good accuracy at 400~500 meters, which also reduce the weight.
3- Every one should be given ACOG 4x or similar and 2 in 1 hand grip/stand.
*4- 2 or 3 round burst option, that will be very nice!!!*

these upgrades should be enough for every thing CQB and Conventional.

This the best configuration if i had choose and Pakistan Army should stick to the HKG3 and 7.62NATO.

As far as Siachin is concerned, i don't know how that happened because Germany, Turkey, Argentine,Greeks,Norwegian used it in Extreme cold conditions it must be some thing with oil used for cleaning or something else but not the rifle.

Future:
POF should develop Roller-delayed blowback for 7.62x39 and 6.8 with some improvements which reduce the weight, recoil and new Tofi(ammo) for Handguns and MP5 type weapon which is good enough to penetrate the Kevlar but also don't have over penetration. because 7.62x39 in Roller-delayed blowback will be very accurate as compared to AK and will be almost as reliable as AK (BTW known 7.62x39 Inaccuracy mostly comes from the AK), and all should have similar externals like handguard etc just change barrel etc and done.

This is my wish list 

After this Dust settle down in our country, conventional Rifle will be more like a good idea, because most engagements in Sub continent will beyond 250 meters or so mostly. cause we have Plains of Punjab, Desert of Sindh and the Siachin. G3 will very very well in conflict. The range, the power, the accuracy, the penetration level and reliability it provides is No comparable with any other rifles and if Pakistan gives every one ACOG 4x man that will be just great!!!. As i have talked to many retired soldiers, all of them said they were train pick on target shouts with Iron sight till 300m.

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## dr_jawwad71

I don't think that Pakistan Army is serious about change of rifle.G3 once considered as best rifle,has been out dated. Many questions have been raised on dependability of this rifle especially after Kargil war and in tackling the armed unrest in tribal areas. That is why these discussions had been set up to make people believe that Pak Army is serious which is not the case.


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## A1Kaid

Superboy said:


> I vote QBZ-95. Very deadly. 5.8 by 42 is new and lethal. HK-417 IMO lacks muzzle velocity. Any other good choice?



HK-417 does not "lack" muzzle velocity, the muzzle velocity it has is appropriate for a .308 caliber. Heavier calibers are going to have less muzzle velocity than a smaller caliber such as the 5.8x42mm of the QBZ-95. The HK-417 is a more powerful weapon than the QBZ-95 in terms of it's caliber, ballistics penetration, and higher ft lbs of energy. Also the HK-417 is a more accurate rifle than the QBZ-95 because it shoots flatter.

This is not to say the QBZ-95 is a bad rifle, but the HK-417 is more deadly, more powerful, more accurate, and yes it's muzzle velocity is slower than the QBZ-95 but that means the Hk-417 .308 rounds hit harder.

If Pakistan army wishes to replace the G3 then it should at least consider the German HK-417 and Turkish MPT-76. Under condition that there is a license provided to domestically manufacture the rifle. If not, I am also a big supporter of POF manufacturing a new battle rifle for Pakistan Army.


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## khushnood alam

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> MP3A3 in service with PAK ARMY for CQB is being changed with some AK variant.......its confirmed from my sources..
> Legionaire here is PK-08 ......5.62 mm


it is loking a good rifle the weight of rifle it is the man problum for pof the should less there rifle weight


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## Kompromat

I voted SCAR-H

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> I voted SCAR-H


I love this waste of time because Army is now not replacing G3


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## Amaa'n

haad ho gayi yar - i thought it was about time you guys stopped getting wet dreams

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## masud

I voted HK-417.......


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## IrbiS

If we choose another 7.62*51 rifle, then there's no point in completely replacing the G-3, considering the conventional Eastern border scenario. One could argue the improvement of modern designs over G-3 but it doesn't necessitate full replacement. We should tweak it and Compliment it with other types for different scenarios which they have already done but quantity can be questioned


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## skybolt

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=400706150110609


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## skybolt




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## Hamza Sidhu

I don't know anything about guns but my cousin is in pak army,I asked him about G3 performance.He said,It is Very Nice weapon,has good aim and range,And most important thing is that it can be easily repaired in case of fault.. 
If soldiers are satisfied with it's performance then why you people have concerns about it???


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## asad71

Hamza Sidhu said:


> I don't know anything about guns but my cousin is in pak army,I asked him about G3 performance.He said,It is Very Nice weapon,has good aim and range,And most important thing is that it can be easily repaired in case of fault..
> If soldiers are satisfied with it's performance then why you people have concerns about it???



G3 is a good and reliable weapon. Only issue is its weight. PA should not be in a rush to change this. Instead use the funds in acquiring some other eqpt. Bear in mind PA is a large army. Changing rifles will mean a lot of rifles.


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## Bobby

This thread is 7 years old.....still not decided


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## Kompromat

ghilzai said:


> I meant license production, to acquire license from turkey to produce MPT 76 & sar 223.



That is what i stated earlier, we can produce MPT-76 standard of rifle by ourselves. The money would be better spent developing one by ourselves. If Army wants something like SCAR-H, then going through licensing purchase is financially sound. 

G-3, MG-3, MP-5 package has to be replaced eventually with modern rifles, so we actually need license for 3 models. Another good option would be to opt for HK-417A1/2, UMP-45 and MG-5 aka HK-121 machine gun. We already have HK license, having a single assembly line can reduce costs. MPT-76 is a HK-417 clone. If we have to buy a license, why not buy an original one?

HK-417A2








Bobby said:


> This thread is 7 years old.....still not decided



Just discussing, there is no tender so far.

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## C130

I see HK 417 is the best choice, but how much do you think they would cost to procure per rifle?? $2000 to $3000???

I would prefer to go with the AK-103 which costs $200 and if you want the .308 style rifle just buy some Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to supplement the cheaper AK-103


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## MastanKhan

Bobby said:


> This thread is 7 years old.....still not decided




No decision---because it is not going to happen----. G 3 is a great weapon---it does the job right---it is reliable---.

Newer models of HK have some issues---. I think germany recalled one model issued to its forces---has problems in very hot weather.


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## patriotpakistan

MastanKhan said:


> No decision---because it is not going to happen----. G 3 is a great weapon---it does the job right---it is reliable---.
> 
> Newer models of HK have some issues---. I think germany recalled one model issued to its forces---has problems in very hot weather.


 
I believe the inaccuracy problems of the G-36 in hot weather were attributed to a particular brand of ammunition by HK. Ofcourse, they might be just trying to save their business.

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## yugocrosrb95

MastanKhan said:


> No decision---because it is not going to happen----. G 3 is a great weapon---it does the job right---it is reliable---.
> 
> Newer models of HK have some issues---. I think germany recalled one model issued to its forces---has problems in very hot weather.



Still no replacement? C'mon, using G3 is like still using AK47/AKM or FN FAL... Its time to move on.

You can keep it for longer range combat when above 500M, put some scope on it and call it a day and move on and I'l be biased and reccommend rifle from my country that is being used of course by my army as standard battle rifle, it is also used by Kurds in Iraq and Iraqi goverment/army/soldiers as well and apparently they loved it like a lot and it recently was submitted to french competition for their next assault rifle.






Also apparently it was spotted in Syria too... Its called VHS, in picture above is its second iterations.

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## Indus Falcon

yugocrosrb95 said:


> Still no replacement? C'mon, using G3 is like still using AK47/AKM or FN FAL... Its time to move on.
> 
> You can keep it for longer range combat when above 500M, put some scope on it and call it a day and move on and I'l be biased and reccommend rifle from my country that is being used of course by my army as standard battle rifle, it is also used by Kurds in Iraq and Iraqi goverment/army/soldiers as well and apparently they loved it like a lot and it recently was submitted to french competition for their next assault rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also apparently it was spotted in Syria too... Its called VHS, in picture above is its second iterations.


Detailed Specs..............? Please. 

Thanks!!


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## yugocrosrb95

Indus Falcon said:


> Detailed Specs..............? Please.
> 
> Thanks!!


NATO 5.56x45, 500mm barrel length, 750 RPM, 3.5KG empty, 950 M/S bullet speed...

Price per unit is 1500$

Apparently on Croatian wikipedia for the gun its written its used by Philiphines also, no source sadly to confirm it.

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## Zarvan

yugocrosrb95 said:


> Still no replacement? C'mon, using G3 is like still using AK47/AKM or FN FAL... Its time to move on.
> 
> You can keep it for longer range combat when above 500M, put some scope on it and call it a day and move on and I'l be biased and reccommend rifle from my country that is being used of course by my army as standard battle rifle, it is also used by Kurds in Iraq and Iraqi goverment/army/soldiers as well and apparently they loved it like a lot and it recently was submitted to french competition for their next assault rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also apparently it was spotted in Syria too... Its called VHS, in picture above is its second iterations.


Well a committee has been established and different Guns would be tested

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## yugocrosrb95

Zarvan said:


> Well a committee has been established and different Guns would be tested


Is it still same committee from 2008 or did this search for replacement was done several times over by now?


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## asad71

1.G-3 is still fantastic for infantry. Weight is the only issue it has, and I speak from experience. For paratroopers, SFs, etc a lighter version would be better.
2. However, even the good old .303 is a lethal weapon in the hands of the rifleman. PA should instead spend money on some other sophisticated weapon. ATGM, MANPAD, Sniper Rifle, RPG, infantry mortar, RLs/Blendicides, etc

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## yugocrosrb95

asad71 said:


> 1.G-3 is still fantastic for infantry. Weight is the only issue it has, and I speak from experience. For paratroopers, SFs, etc a lighter version would be better.
> 2. However, even the good old .303 is a lethal weapon in the hands of the rifleman. PA should instead spend money on some other sophisticated weapon. ATGM, MANPAD, Sniper Rifle, RPG, infantry mortar, RLs/Blendicides, etc


5.56x45 NATO is deadlier, ask any soldier medic on the front line that took care of wounded and it is better to have faster travel speed of a bullet because even one tenth of a second will decide between life or death when in close quarter combat and bullup design is great that kind of combat inside buildings and on streets.

G3 should be relegated to sniper units if accuracy is good enough for 1000 meter firefights.

You need better assault rifle's otherwise your infrantry will get slaughtered and then who will defend your MBT and APC, hostile infrantry will then have easier time picking off tanks inside cities and areas with dense vegetation.


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## RAMPAGE

asad71 said:


> 1.G-3 is still fantastic for infantry. Weight is the only issue it has, and I speak from experience. For paratroopers, SFs, etc a lighter version would be better.
> 2. However, even the good old .303 is a lethal weapon in the hands of the rifleman. PA should instead spend money on some other sophisticated weapon. ATGM, MANPAD, Sniper Rifle, RPG, infantry mortar, RLs/Blendicides, etc


So is the F-16 but better replacements are availible. 

Things are improving and we are stepping up our modernization efforts.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

yugocrosrb95 said:


> Still no replacement? C'mon, using G3 is like still using AK47/AKM or FN FAL... Its time to move on.
> 
> You can keep it for longer range combat when above 500M, put some scope on it and call it a day and move on and I'l be biased and reccommend rifle from my country that is being used of course by my army as standard battle rifle, it is also used by Kurds in Iraq and Iraqi goverment/army/soldiers as well and apparently they loved it like a lot and it recently was submitted to french competition for their next assault rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also apparently it was spotted in Syria too... Its called VHS, in picture above is its second iterations.





asad71 said:


> 1.G-3 is still fantastic for infantry. Weight is the only issue it has, and I speak from experience. For paratroopers, SFs, etc a lighter version would be better.
> 2. However, even the good old .303 is a lethal weapon in the hands of the rifleman. PA should instead spend money on some other sophisticated weapon. ATGM, MANPAD, Sniper Rifle, RPG, infantry mortar, RLs/Blendicides, etc



7 years back it was PDF members speculating G3 replacement.... today (2015) ... the army has officially decided to replace it... hence a board has been formed to choose a replacement...

meanwhile 2 new variants of G3 have been inducted (in the past)...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...IbGZMdSl-hMbBk-jGa9z5Q&bvm=bv.104615367,d.dGo



yugocrosrb95 said:


> NATO 5.56x45, 500mm barrel length, 750 RPM, 3.5KG empty, 950 M/S bullet speed...
> 
> Price per unit is 1500$
> 
> Apparently on Croatian wikipedia for the gun its written its used by Philiphines also, no source sadly to confirm it.



5.56 has no takers here... only Pak SF/marines and reglars on secific duties use that...

Thats exactly why PK08 was rejected ,,,






Detailed pics of new POF guns!!


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## yugocrosrb95

Keep using G3 with 20 bullet magazines while the opposing force nails your troops with 5.56x45 NATO which is a bit less than half the weight of 7mm NATO and has 2/3rd of kinetic power at half the size in comparison to 7mm NATO with 10 extra rounds in magazine.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

yugocrosrb95 said:


> Keep using G3 with 20 bullet magazines while the opposing force nails your troops with 5.56x45 NATO which is a bit less than half the weight of 7mm NATO and has 2/3rd of kinetic power at half the size in comparison to 7mm NATO with 10 extra rounds in magazine.



















*By 2016... G3 will be replaced.... 5.56 proved useless in Afghanistan (excluding SF requirements),*


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## yugocrosrb95

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> *5.56 proved useless in Afghanistan (excluding SF requirements),*



If it was useless then it would't have been used at all, you can think all you want its only the mountains and ignore cities with recent event at Kunduz and US army introduced M855A1 which is superior in everyway to original M855A1 and Pakistani tested 5.56 in 2008 before introduction of M855A1 in 2010.

Test 5.56x45 again with M855A1 and you'l see that it will hit a target at 600 meters and better penetration of the materials than original M855A1. 

5.56x45 guns do more damage than G3 and with M855A1 it does even more damage to the body!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

yugocrosrb95 said:


> If it was useless then it would't have been used at all, you can think all you want its only the mountains and ignore cities with recent event at Kunduz and US army introduced M855A1 which is superior in everyway to original M855A1 and Pakistani tested 5.56 in 2008 before introduction of M855A1 in 2010.
> 
> Test 5.56x45 again with M855A1 and you'l see that it will hit a target at 600 meters and better penetration of the materials than original M855A1.
> 
> 5.56x45 guns do more damage than G3 and with M855A1 it does even more damage to the body!


7.62 x51mm vs 5.56 x45mm .... yeah sure.


There is a good reason nato hates 5.56 in A'stan.

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## Zarvan

yugocrosrb95 said:


> Is it still same committee from 2008 or did this search for replacement was done several times over by now?


No committee was formed than only recently it has been formed and now they will start testing Guns


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## asad71

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> 7.62 x51mm vs 5.56 x45mm .... yeah sure.
> 
> 
> There is a good reason nato hates 5.56 in A'stan.



1.In recent times security forces have discovered that the smaller bore isn't ideal for CQB and anti-insurgency. You need to kill the target twice. That's why they are clamoring to get back to the 7.62 which ensures a kill in one shot. The idea of injuring the enemy to cause logistic problem isn't totally correct. Insurgents will leave an injured or kill him to prevent capture.
2. With the naked eye a trained soldier can hit the bull's eye at 300 yds max - irrespective of what rifle he is using. So it would be prudent to spend funds on GPMG, RPG, MANPAD and other infantry weapons to give infantry platoons, coys and Bns more fire power.

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## tigerrock ali

Black Stone said:


> Blackwater, nice name.
> 
> I don't think we would provide you the M4.


Who needs that piece of hunk metal anyway? In my opinion m4 is crap.


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## SpectreRain

7.62 does do a lot of damage. But in order to make a choice I think HK-417 it is. Looks nice as well.

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## Zarvan

SpectreRain said:


> 7.62 does do a lot of damage. But in order to make a choice I think HK-417 it is. Looks nice as well.


After recent development and agreement with Germany with HIT. I think HK-417 being produced at POF WAH is quite possible


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## Maarkhoor

Any rifle Pakistan army select will be produce locally under license, i think in that sense German rifles are great like
*Heckler & Koch G36*
*Variants[edit]*



A G36KV as delivered to the Latvian Army. It is configured with a telescopic stock and a Picatinny sight rail



G36A2 with a Zeiss RSA reflex sight and an AG36 grenade launcher on display as part of Germany's IdZmodernization program



An Malaysian Navy diver fromPASKAL armed with a G36C in 57th Malaysian National Day. It is configured with birdcage flash suppressor and a buttstock short with cheek rest.

*G36V* (V—_Variante_ "variant"): Previously known as the G36E (E—_Export_), it is the export version of the standard G36. The G36V has all of the characteristics of the standard rifle with the exception of the sight setup and bayonet mount. It is fitted with a x1.5 or x3 sight and lacks the integrated reflex sight; the bayonet mount is a standard NATO type. This version was produced for Spain and Latvia.

*MG36* (MG—_Maschinengewehr_ "machine gun"): Light machine gun version of the G36 equipped with a heavy barrel for increased heat and cook-offresistance.[2] The MG36 and MG36E are no longer offered by H&K.

*G36K* (K—_kurz_ "short"): carbine variant with a shorter barrel (fitted with an open-type flash suppressor) and a shorter forend, which includes a bottom rail that can be used to attach tactical accessories, such as a UTL flashlight from the USPpistol. The carbine's barrel lacks the ability to launch rifle grenades and it will not support a bayonet. The weapon retained the ability to be used with the AG36 grenade launcher. G36Ks in service with German special forces are issued with a 100-round C-Mag drum. There are two variants of the G36K. The first and most commonly known has x3 scope/carry handle attached to the top, while the second is the one with the iron sights and rail (no scope included).

*G36KV* (formerly G36KE): export version of carbine variant, G36K with sights like G36V.

*G36C* (C="Compact", commonly mistaken for "Commando", a term trademarked by Colt Firearms for the CAR-15): This subcarbine model is a further development of the G36K. It has a shorter barrel than the G36K, and a four-prong open-type flash hider or a birdcage type flash hider. The extremely short barrel forced designers to move the gas block closer to the muzzle end and reduce the length of the gas piston operating rod. The handguard and stock were also shortened and the fixed carry handle (with optics) was replaced with a carrying handle with an integrated MIL-STD-1913 Picatinny rail. The dual optical sight found on the standard G36 and G36K models was replaced with a set of rail-mounted detachable iron sights that consist of a semi-shrouded front post and a flip-up rear sight with two apertures of different diameter. The short handguard has four accessory attachment points, one of which could be used for a vertical grip. The G36C was developed and produced in January 2001.

*G36A2*: This is an ordnance designation allocated to an upgraded variant of the G36 used by the German Army. The G36A2 is equipped with a quick-detachable Zeiss RSA reflex red dot sight[30] mounted on a Picatinny rail that replaces the original red dot sight of the dual combat sighting system. The G36A2 upgrade kit also consists of the shorter G36C stock (Designed for better handling with use ofbody armor and load bearing equipment), new handguard made of aluminium (provides better heat resistance during long periods of firing) with an optional 4 Picatinny rails and a vertical foregrip with an integrated switch for operating an Oerlikon Contraves LLM01 laser light module.[31]


----------



## SpectreRain

Zarvan said:


> After recent development and agreement with Germany with HIT. I think HK-417 being produced at POF WAH is quite possible



Interesting. Good to know.






MaarKhoor said:


> Any rifle Pakistan army select will be produce locally under license, i think in that sense German rifles are great like
> *Heckler & Koch G36*



G36 is also another good option. Reliable German engineering.


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## barbarosa

long barrel rifle is batter than short barrel. In the case of war on border long barrel rifle is useful and in the case of war on terror then short barrel rifle is suitable, because war on terror often fights in the streets roads markets and populated areas.


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## Zarvan

MaarKhoor said:


> Any rifle Pakistan army select will be produce locally under license, i think in that sense German rifles are great like
> *Heckler & Koch G36*
> *Variants[edit]*
> 
> 
> 
> A G36KV as delivered to the Latvian Army. It is configured with a telescopic stock and a Picatinny sight rail
> 
> 
> 
> G36A2 with a Zeiss RSA reflex sight and an AG36 grenade launcher on display as part of Germany's IdZmodernization program
> 
> 
> 
> An Malaysian Navy diver fromPASKAL armed with a G36C in 57th Malaysian National Day. It is configured with birdcage flash suppressor and a buttstock short with cheek rest.
> 
> *G36V* (V—_Variante_ "variant"): Previously known as the G36E (E—_Export_), it is the export version of the standard G36. The G36V has all of the characteristics of the standard rifle with the exception of the sight setup and bayonet mount. It is fitted with a x1.5 or x3 sight and lacks the integrated reflex sight; the bayonet mount is a standard NATO type. This version was produced for Spain and Latvia.
> 
> *MG36* (MG—_Maschinengewehr_ "machine gun"): Light machine gun version of the G36 equipped with a heavy barrel for increased heat and cook-offresistance.[2] The MG36 and MG36E are no longer offered by H&K.
> 
> *G36K* (K—_kurz_ "short"): carbine variant with a shorter barrel (fitted with an open-type flash suppressor) and a shorter forend, which includes a bottom rail that can be used to attach tactical accessories, such as a UTL flashlight from the USPpistol. The carbine's barrel lacks the ability to launch rifle grenades and it will not support a bayonet. The weapon retained the ability to be used with the AG36 grenade launcher. G36Ks in service with German special forces are issued with a 100-round C-Mag drum. There are two variants of the G36K. The first and most commonly known has x3 scope/carry handle attached to the top, while the second is the one with the iron sights and rail (no scope included).
> 
> *G36KV* (formerly G36KE): export version of carbine variant, G36K with sights like G36V.
> 
> *G36C* (C="Compact", commonly mistaken for "Commando", a term trademarked by Colt Firearms for the CAR-15): This subcarbine model is a further development of the G36K. It has a shorter barrel than the G36K, and a four-prong open-type flash hider or a birdcage type flash hider. The extremely short barrel forced designers to move the gas block closer to the muzzle end and reduce the length of the gas piston operating rod. The handguard and stock were also shortened and the fixed carry handle (with optics) was replaced with a carrying handle with an integrated MIL-STD-1913 Picatinny rail. The dual optical sight found on the standard G36 and G36K models was replaced with a set of rail-mounted detachable iron sights that consist of a semi-shrouded front post and a flip-up rear sight with two apertures of different diameter. The short handguard has four accessory attachment points, one of which could be used for a vertical grip. The G36C was developed and produced in January 2001.
> 
> *G36A2*: This is an ordnance designation allocated to an upgraded variant of the G36 used by the German Army. The G36A2 is equipped with a quick-detachable Zeiss RSA reflex red dot sight[30] mounted on a Picatinny rail that replaces the original red dot sight of the dual combat sighting system. The G36A2 upgrade kit also consists of the shorter G36C stock (Designed for better handling with use ofbody armor and load bearing equipment), new handguard made of aluminium (provides better heat resistance during long periods of firing) with an optional 4 Picatinny rails and a vertical foregrip with an integrated switch for operating an Oerlikon Contraves LLM01 laser light module.[31]


HK G36 has turned out to be disaster even Germans hate it and are replacing it with HK-416 and HK-417 @SpectreRain


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## ConcealCarry

Last I updated myself on the gun, it had some problems, not sure what's the status now.

German Bundeswehr confirms G36 issues




MaarKhoor said:


> Any rifle Pakistan army select will be produce locally under license, i think in that sense German rifles are great like
> *Heckler & Koch G36*
> *Variants[edit]*
> 
> 
> 
> A G36KV as delivered to the Latvian Army. It is configured with a telescopic stock and a Picatinny sight rail
> 
> 
> 
> G36A2 with a Zeiss RSA reflex sight and an AG36 grenade launcher on display as part of Germany's IdZmodernization program
> 
> 
> 
> An Malaysian Navy diver fromPASKAL armed with a G36C in 57th Malaysian National Day. It is configured with birdcage flash suppressor and a buttstock short with cheek rest.
> 
> *G36V* (V—_Variante_ "variant"): Previously known as the G36E (E—_Export_), it is the export version of the standard G36. The G36V has all of the characteristics of the standard rifle with the exception of the sight setup and bayonet mount. It is fitted with a x1.5 or x3 sight and lacks the integrated reflex sight; the bayonet mount is a standard NATO type. This version was produced for Spain and Latvia.
> 
> *MG36* (MG—_Maschinengewehr_ "machine gun"): Light machine gun version of the G36 equipped with a heavy barrel for increased heat and cook-offresistance.[2] The MG36 and MG36E are no longer offered by H&K.
> 
> *G36K* (K—_kurz_ "short"): carbine variant with a shorter barrel (fitted with an open-type flash suppressor) and a shorter forend, which includes a bottom rail that can be used to attach tactical accessories, such as a UTL flashlight from the USPpistol. The carbine's barrel lacks the ability to launch rifle grenades and it will not support a bayonet. The weapon retained the ability to be used with the AG36 grenade launcher. G36Ks in service with German special forces are issued with a 100-round C-Mag drum. There are two variants of the G36K. The first and most commonly known has x3 scope/carry handle attached to the top, while the second is the one with the iron sights and rail (no scope included).
> 
> *G36KV* (formerly G36KE): export version of carbine variant, G36K with sights like G36V.
> 
> *G36C* (C="Compact", commonly mistaken for "Commando", a term trademarked by Colt Firearms for the CAR-15): This subcarbine model is a further development of the G36K. It has a shorter barrel than the G36K, and a four-prong open-type flash hider or a birdcage type flash hider. The extremely short barrel forced designers to move the gas block closer to the muzzle end and reduce the length of the gas piston operating rod. The handguard and stock were also shortened and the fixed carry handle (with optics) was replaced with a carrying handle with an integrated MIL-STD-1913 Picatinny rail. The dual optical sight found on the standard G36 and G36K models was replaced with a set of rail-mounted detachable iron sights that consist of a semi-shrouded front post and a flip-up rear sight with two apertures of different diameter. The short handguard has four accessory attachment points, one of which could be used for a vertical grip. The G36C was developed and produced in January 2001.
> 
> *G36A2*: This is an ordnance designation allocated to an upgraded variant of the G36 used by the German Army. The G36A2 is equipped with a quick-detachable Zeiss RSA reflex red dot sight[30] mounted on a Picatinny rail that replaces the original red dot sight of the dual combat sighting system. The G36A2 upgrade kit also consists of the shorter G36C stock (Designed for better handling with use ofbody armor and load bearing equipment), new handguard made of aluminium (provides better heat resistance during long periods of firing) with an optional 4 Picatinny rails and a vertical foregrip with an integrated switch for operating an Oerlikon Contraves LLM01 laser light module.[31]


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## Zarvan

ConcealCarry said:


> Last I updated myself on the gun, it had some problems, not sure what's the status now.
> 
> German Bundeswehr confirms G36 issues


They are replacing it


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## Benign Persona

With the Pakistan Army looking into acquiring a new standard issue rifle (or rifles), it would be a good idea to build an understanding of how the Army might evaluate each of its options. At present, it seems that the Army has shortlisted its final options to the following rifles: The FN Herstal SCAR H, CZ-806 BREN 2, Zastava M21 (or M77), Beretta ARX-200, and Kalashnikov AK-103.

The SCAR H, ARX-200 and Zastava M77 (if it is not M21) are chambered for using 7.62x51mm NATO rounds. On the other hand, the AK-103 is built for 7.62x39mm rounds. The CZ-806 BREN 2 is less clear because the only version that is known to the public uses 5.56x45mm NATO rounds; but given the competition, the rifle present in Pakistan have been chambered for either 7.62x51mm or 7.62x39mm.

This article will not make a recommendation, but rather, it will offer a few insights into the factors that might influence the Army’s final decision. It must be noted that changing one’s standard issue rifle, i.e. the rifle given to each and every soldier in need of one, is a significant step. If successful, a program of this nature would only happen once in a generation; if it fails, it can be a very expensive headache.

For some background, the Pakistan Army initiated its rifle evaluation program in November 2015. At the time, it had gotten in touch with a number of overseas small-arms vendors. By the end of January 2016, it had begun testing the weapons listed above.

Specific details regarding the program, such as the budget, timeline and scope, were not disclosed by the Army or Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR). But given the range of weapons being tested, it seems the focus may be on replacing the Heckler & Koch (HK) G3 7.62x51mm NATO battle rifle and the NORINCO Type 56 7.62x39mm assault rifle (a licensed Chinese clone of the Kalashnikov AK-47).

With this in mind, it is important to consider how the Pakistan Army presently utilizes its two main rifles. The HK G3 is primarily issued to infantry facing the eastern front. The Type 56 has been popular with Army troops engaged in counterinsurgency (COIN) operations in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA).

The first question that may arise is whether this new rifle – especially one that has a design that can be chambered for different rounds – will replace both the Type 56 and G3, or simply one of them. An additional possibility would be the selection of two different designs. While redundancy is an issue from a cost perspective, the approach would enable the Army to meet distinct operational needs without partly compromising one need in order to fulfill the other.

That said, some designs, such as the SCAR and BREN, offer a level of modularity that aims to mitigate the need for multiple distinct systems. For example, the FN SCAR can be chambered for different rounds, which could be used to build weapons suited for specialized tasks and markets. The SCAR-series, which is includes the SCAR H, a 7.62x51mm battle rifle, could be adapted into the 5.56x45mm SCAR L assault rifle, which one might market to law enforcement agencies. Alternatively, the SCAR H itself could be re-adapted into the Sniper Support Unit (SSU), a designated marksman rifle (DMR). Such modularity could position a core design as an effective solution for multiple environments and scenarios provided the right sub-variant is used (e.g. SCAR H, SCAR L, etc).

In terms of the Army’s requirements, the rifle (or rifles) cannot fail in the multitude of environmental conditions the Pakistan Army operates in, such as the hot and arid Thar Desert of Sindh (or freezing peaks of Siachin), the plains of Punjab, as well as the diverse hills, mountains and valleys throughout Baluchistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, the Northern Areas, and Kashmir. Durability and reliability in these regions (and during all seasons) will be critical, the Army cannot afford (operationally and financially) to compromise.

Performance will be the critical benchmark in the Army’s final decision, but the question of cost needs to be discussed as well. At the end of the day, the Army’s budget for arms is finite, hence it is generally steered towards cost-sensitive solutions. This is plainly evident in almost all of the Army’s big-ticket acquisitions. However, given that there are at least two relatively expensive options being evaluated, i.e. the FN SCAR H and Beretta ARX 200, it is possible that there is a level of flexibility the Army is willing to tolerate in terms of cost.

The rationale (for being cost-flexible) could stem from wanting to ensure that the rifle could dependably serve the Army for at least as many decades as the HK G3. Moreover, the Army is not going to induct hundreds of thousands of rifles in the short-term. If anything, it would have to worry about the up-front costs of acquiring the necessary technology, intellectual property, and commercial rights of the winning candidate. Beyond that, it would basically induct its rifles on a relatively incremental and gradual basis, e.g. 10-15,000 rifles per year with occasional increases on good funding years. In other words, while the selection of an expensive rifle may be costly in relative terms (compared to more affordable alternatives), it may not be a comparatively costly exercise (compared to revamping one’s attack helicopter fleet).

Another angle to consider is that of commercial viability. General Raheel Sharif has been a vocal proponent of building Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF)’s commercial competitiveness. The capacity to offer a premium weapon could be seen as a means to boost POF’s profile in the global arms industry. Not only would the production of a premium product help POF net higher revenues (and potentially healthier profit-margins), but it would also prepare it for the global small-arms market of the future when the high-end arms of today could potentially become the mainstay arms of tomorrow.
http://quwa.org/2016/03/21/rifle-will-pakistan-army-choose/

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## Maj.Osmani

@Zarvan


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## Zarvan

@Horus Sir do you have any latest info on Gun trials ? @balixd


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## C130

why wasn't the Galil ACE evaluated


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## 544_delta

C130 said:


> why wasn't the Galil ACE evaluated


its Israeli origin would not have had a warm welcome here.

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## C130

544_delta said:


> its Israeli origin would not have had a warm welcome here.



a weapon is a weapon, why should it matter who designed it


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## General General

C130 said:


> a weapon is a weapon, why should it matter who designed it


You can say the same about the Chinese bid for supplying Turkey with AD systems and how that went down with the U.S. There are few things in this world that do not come attached with politics.

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## BRAVO_

POF attempted to meet the requirement with its PK-8, which was a development of the German HK33K. However, the cost of having to replace so many rifles appears to have killed the project at that time.

it is likely that the Chinese will be the most prepared to offer attractive deals but pakistan should take a look it more carefully


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## Maj.Osmani

@Zarvan 
Good news for you finally Pakistan decided to purchase large number of SCAR rifles and delivery expected just before eid....After seeing lot of passion from Pakistani kids Govt decided to purchase rifles and will available at all toy stalls on eid.

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## 544_delta

do we know which weapon is leading the competition? any favorites so far?



C130 said:


> a weapon is a weapon, why should it matter who designed it


it matters..specially when you don't even acknowledge the manufacturing country's existence in the first place ..

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## Zarvan

Maj.Osmani said:


> @Zarvan
> Good news for you finally Pakistan decided to purchase large number of SCAR rifles and delivery expected just before eid....After seeing lot of passion from Pakistani kids Govt decided to purchase rifles and will available at all toy stalls on eid.


What I know is SCAR is leading the trials but new Guns most probably HK-417 and some other Guns are also in phase II of trials. So waiting for final decision


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## 544_delta

Zarvan said:


> What I know is SCAR is leading the trials but new Guns most probably HK-417 and some other Guns are also in phase II of trials. So waiting for final decision


when did HK enter the competition? it wasn't in the initial trials as far as i remember.


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## Zarvan

544_delta said:


> when did HK enter the competition? it wasn't in the initial trials as far as i remember.


I don't know but a picture I got few days ago suggest that one Gun in that picture is HK 417


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## 544_delta

Zarvan said:


> I don't know but a picture I got few days ago suggest that one Gun in that picture is HK 417


can we see the picture? please?


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## Zarvan

544_delta said:


> can we see the picture? please?


I am dying to share the pic but can't until friend allows me

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## Taimur Khurram

C130 said:


> why wasn't the Galil ACE evaluated



To put it bluntly, nobody in Pakistan likes kikes (I am fine with them, but I doubt I speak for everyone).



BRAVO_ said:


> POF attempted to meet the requirement with its PK-8, which was a development of the German HK33K. However, the cost of having to replace so many rifles appears to have killed the project at that time.
> 
> it is likely that the Chinese will be the most prepared to offer attractive deals but pakistan should take a look it more carefully



The PK-8 was too damn expensive for everyone to use it. Although it's still fairly common from what I know.


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## Muhammad Omar

This one??

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## Path-Finder

Muhammad Omar said:


> This one??



Is this @Zarvan Eidi?


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## Talwar e Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> To put it bluntly, nobody in Pakistan likes kikes (I am fine with them, but I doubt I speak for everyone).
> 
> 
> 
> The PK-8 was too damn expensive for everyone to use it. Although it's still fairly common from what I know.


So it is expensive to procure a modified G3 but not FN-Scar?


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## Taimur Khurram

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> So it is expensive to procure a modified G3 but not FN-Scar?



The PK-8 was a hell of a lot better than the G3, and yes getting the Scar will be more expensive. If it's procured, it will be used in small quantities for special forces. Although, I think it's already filling that role so...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

thrilainmanila said:


> there are many people who served in the army who said that POF made refiles are unreliable and jam easily.


Kid .. Nobody claims POF rifles are unreliable or jam easily .. Don't claim shit (your usual forte)...

G-3 jams in extreme weather in siachin... Irrespective of the one made by POF or HK...

POF supplies weapons to several countries ,.. Including USA .. Now if they made unreliable rifles.. A semi auto MP-5 wouldn't sell for 1700+$ in USA.



thrilainmanila said:


> there are many people who served in the army who said that POF made refiles are unreliable and jam easily.


Kid .. Nobody claims POF rifles are unreliable or jam easily .. Don't claim shit (your usual forte)...

G-3 jams in extreme weather in siachin... Irrespective of the one made by POF or HK...

POF supplies weapons to several countries ,.. Including USA .. Now if they made unreliable rifles.. A semi auto MP-5 wouldn't sell for 1700+$ in USA.

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## Indus Falcon

thrilainmanila said:


> there are many people who served in the army who said that POF made refiles are unreliable and jam easily.


Please provide the name, rank, and serial numbers of those people.

Thank You

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## Tipu7

www.armyrecognition.com/june_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/pakistan_to_buy_numerous_ak-103_assault_rifles_to_russia_tass_32106163.html

Seems we have "one" winner 

AK 103

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## Zarvan

Tipu7 said:


> www.armyrecognition.com/june_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/pakistan_to_buy_numerous_ak-103_assault_rifles_to_russia_tass_32106163.html
> 
> Seems we have "one" winner
> 
> AK 103
> 
> View attachment 312442


The article clearly indicates we are looking for more than one Gun. Let see whether this Gun will replace only Type 56 or not



Muhammad Omar said:


> This one??


This picture of FN SCAR indicates that some decision has been made on FN SCAR also because I haven't seen any FN SCAR in Brown colors in tests. So Where did this came from ? @Tipu7


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## Muhammad Omar

Tipu7 said:


> www.armyrecognition.com/june_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/pakistan_to_buy_numerous_ak-103_assault_rifles_to_russia_tass_32106163.html
> 
> Seems we have "one" winner
> 
> AK 103
> 
> View attachment 312442



AK 103 is better then SCAR??


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## Zarvan

Muhammad Omar said:


> AK 103 is better then SCAR??


No what is most likely is that we are not just looking to replace G3 but also Type 56 and this Gun would replace Type 56 in our inventory

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## Muhammad Omar

Zarvan said:


> No what is most likely is that we are not just looking to replace G3 but also Type 56 and this Gun would replace Type 56 in our inventory



Great


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## That Guy

Tipu7 said:


> www.armyrecognition.com/june_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/pakistan_to_buy_numerous_ak-103_assault_rifles_to_russia_tass_32106163.html
> 
> Seems we have "one" winner
> 
> AK 103
> 
> View attachment 312442


Yeah, I doubt it.

Armyrecognition also claimed that Pakistan was going to buy Russian tanks, guess what? never happened.

While Pakistan Army is looking at procuring two different caliber rifles (or one rifle with multiple calibers), there are no indications that the AK is going to win any time soon.

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## Max Pain

Ive seen Ssg soldiers with ak 103, looks quite different but still its not worth it, 
I dont what argument they used to justify this decision for going at ak 103


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## Zarvan

Max Pain said:


> Ive seen Ssg soldiers with ak 103, looks quite different but still its not worth it,
> I dont what argument they used to justify this decision for going at ak 103


First news is not fully confirmed secondly if we are buying than AK-103 than it's to replace Type 56 not G3


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## Talwar e Pakistan

dsr478 said:


> The PK-8 was a hell of a lot better than the G3, and yes getting the Scar will be more expensive. If it's procured, it will be used in small quantities for special forces. Although, I think it's already filling that role so...


I thought it was going to be our service rifle?


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## 544_delta

Muhammad Omar said:


>





Tipu7 said:


> View attachment 312442





Zarvan said:


>


beautiful pieces of engineering..... i hope the army upgrades rest of the infantry gear to further compliment these superb weapons.


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## Imran Khan

it will be G3A5 ?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Mysticbuddy said:


> How dare you say anything against that starts with P. Negative rating slapped by analyst. Good luck.



POF is supplying arms to ME states,Several Asian states like Malaysia,Vietnam etc and even USA..

Now if you weren't the typical Indian douchbag hiding behind a US flag your retardedness would have at least looked at the reviews of the POF weapons sold by US companies;
















At least we don't produce shytty weapons that jam in the heat of battle or whose magazines crack in hot or cold weather -- apart from the bad production quality of your home country.



Imran Khan said:


> it will be G3A5 ?



Nope .. It will be one of these;

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## Blue Marlin

Maj.Osmani said:


> @Zarvan
> Good news for you finally Pakistan decided to purchase large number of SCAR rifles and delivery expected just before eid....After seeing lot of passion from Pakistani kids Govt decided to purchase rifles and will available at all toy stalls on eid.


damn why are picking on kids for. have you even given him the su-35 model yet ?

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## Maj.Osmani

Blue Marlin said:


> damn why are picking on kids for. have you even given him the su-35 model yet ?


Eid special gifts we call it Eidi with big plate of Sheer khurma

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## Mysticbuddy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> POF is supplying arms to ME states,Several Asian states like Malaysia,Vietnam etc and even USA..
> 
> Now if you weren't the typical Indian douchbag hiding behind a US flag your retardedness would have at least looked at the reviews of the POF weapons sold by US companies;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least we don't produce shytty weapons that jam in the heat of battle or whose magazines crack in hot or cold weather -- apart from the bad production quality of your home country.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope .. It will be one of these;
> 
> 
> View attachment 312678
> View attachment 312679
> View attachment 312680
> View attachment 312681
> View attachment 312683
> View attachment 312684
> View attachment 312685


Well I am no arms expert so I have no knowledge of the same and/or anything that will be interns of power / specifications.

Supplying US is a good thing but that doesn't mean it won't jam. I know even M4 and 16s jam. The other guy had just mention about that and my post was showing the same. I do know about guns made locally by people, may be illegally from a channel called viceland.

Well the cussing won't help your case with me as i know how much the weapons made in US are loved and in some cases begged. I also know that Pakistan is looking for new rifles and most of them are US made. 

I wish I was Indian as I am yet to like anything from Pakistan except colorful trucks.


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## Blue Marlin

Maj.Osmani said:


> Eid special gifts we call it Eidi with big plate of Sheer khurma


so instead of a toy gun and model plane your gonna give him diabetes instead !
i rather take the toy gun myself and then pass it on to my nephew.

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## .

Ak 103 !!!!!


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## muhammadali233

Mysticbuddy said:


> I wish I was Indian as I am yet to like anything from Pakistan except colorful trucks.


Your or in fact any other person's liking or disliking doesn't (and shouldn't) bother any Pakistani what bothers is hate and butthurt comments.
Your negativity towards Pakistan is more likely towards the Bad mouthing of big Foreign news channel they get paid to show the bad stuff happening around the world.Every country has a fair share of assholes,our assholes being world famous attracts alot of hatred/negativity.
P.S You can add the topography/geography of PAK into your list of "liking" next to trucks,you can start here https://www.instagram.com/travelbeautifulpakistan/.

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## Zarvan

Blue Marlin said:


> damn why are picking on kids for. have you even given him the su-35 model yet ?


I don't know anything about that but what I know is PAF chief is going to visit Russia really soon


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## Benign Persona

HAS THE PAKISTAN ARMY SELECTED THE AK-103?
According to the Russian News Agency TASS (via Army Recognition), the Pakistan Army is planning to order a large number of Kalashnikov AK-103 assault rifles from Russia.

The information was given to TASS by a Pakistan Ministry of Defence (MoD) official at Eurosatory 2016, a major defence exhibition that took place last week in Paris.

According to the MoD source who spoke to TASS, the AK-103s are being bought because “they can be used in the country’s hot weather conditions.”

The source also told TASS that the Pakistani armed forces intend to acquire up to a million new rifles for the purpose of fully re-equipping the country’s infantry. However, the source did not confirm the extent to which the AK-103 will service this need, thus leaving the room for another rifle to be procured.

Comment and Analysis

The Pakistan Army semi-officially disclosed its program to acquire a new widely issued rifle in March. At the time, the AK-103 was among a group of competitors which had included FN Herstal (SCAR H), Česká Zbrojovka (CZ-806 BREN 2), Zastava (M77), and Beretta (ARX-200).

Although an older design (in comparison to its competitors), the AK-103 offers marked improvements over the Type 56, such as incorporating a picatinny rail in the design, thus enabling it to be ready for sights and other rifle add-ons. Moreover, the transition period to have Army personnel transitioned to the AK-103 (from Type 56) should be minimal, thus making the rifle’s entry into a combat environment relatively prompt.

Besides the reported selection of the AK-103, the status of the other entrants has not been disclosed via official channels. Looking at the statements given to TASS by the Pakistani MoD official, it is possible that another rifle will be chosen, especially if the AK-103 is to be a replacement for the Type 56, which is what Pakistan Army infantry mostly use in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas.

In this case, a replacement for the Heckler & Koch (HK) G3 battle rifle would emerge in the form of a 7.62x51mm NATO calibre rifle. In terms of the group from March, this could include the Zastava M77, Beretta ARX-200 and FN SCAR H, but there is nothing to preclude the Army to include other competitors, such as the HK-417 and MKEK MPT-76. In fact, one could argue that these rifles ought to stand a higher chance given that they are derived (or at least draw a relatively high proportion of parts) from the widely adopted AR-15 platform.
http://quwa.org/2016/06/21/pakistan-army-selected-ak-103-assault-rifle/


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## Mysticbuddy

muhammadali233 said:


> Your or in fact any other person's liking or disliking doesn't (and shouldn't) bother any Pakistani what bothers is hate and butthurt comments.
> Your negativity towards Pakistan is more likely towards the Bad mouthing of big Foreign news channel they get paid to show the bad stuff happening around the world.Every country has a fair share of assholes,our assholes being world famous attracts alot of hatred/negativity.
> P.S You can add the topography/geography of PAK into your list of "liking" next to trucks,you can start here https://www.instagram.com/travelbeautifulpakistan/.


I really appreciate your comment and the information you provided and it really is wonderful that you refreshed my memory from my previous project of great civilization on your land.

As for the part of holes you are talking, I agree. My problem is the recognition of them as such. I was just on another forum of Afgan players beeting. The incident is sad but it the reacting here that were even worst. I have seen more of this from a very long time.

Even we are having issues with the holes that you have mentioned. Donald Trump is a prime example. Even though he is liked for his pro Union and wages policy. He is criticized and challenged for anti Muslim policy.

This is where the fabric of society will be tested. It plays a major part with everyone doing their part. This is where I have a major beef (Indians - I haven't killed a cow ).

I wish the views of the people here is positive when looking at things. That's the only reason I am commenting.


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## Taimur Khurram

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> I thought it was going to be our service rifle?



As you said, WAY too expensive. Maybe for some parts of the regular army, but even then that's a push.


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## Zarvan

dsr478 said:


> As you said, WAY too expensive. Maybe for some parts of the regular army, but even then that's a push.


Sir if cost would have been a issue we would have not tested FN SCAR in first place. We are testing FN SCAR after considering everything


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## Taimur Khurram

Zarvan said:


> Sir if cost would have been a issue we would have not tested FN SCAR in first place. We are testing FN SCAR after considering everything



I guess so.


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## PDF

I think AK103 will be in finals not because of the recent article, but because it is a good rifle economically, is a strong and suitable weapon.

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## TaimiKhan

Thread already exists, plz continue discussion there.


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## ZAC1

i am following this thread from last 3 years sukhar hai finally something is coming


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## Arsalan

C130 said:


> why wasn't the Galil ACE evaluated


For same reason we never though about Iron Dome or David Sling or Merkava tank!


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## Kompromat

Continue here. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...competition-2016.426049/page-246#post-9349900


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