# HAL LCH| Updates and Discussions



## ejaz007

All discussion related to LCH please post here:

*HAL's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) to Fly by March 2009*
Dated 24/11/2008

India's first indigenous dedicated attack chopper, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), is finally slated to take to the skies in March next year after a few false starts over the last couple of years.

"After the first prototype's maiden flight in March 2009, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) says LCH should be ready for the initial operational clearance (IOC) by December 2010," a senior defence ministry official told TOI.

With the final operational clearance (FOC) a year or so after that, the newly revised timeframes hold that the 5.5-tonne LCH should be ready for induction into IAF by 2012-2013.

The project development cost of LCH is currently pegged at only Rs 376.67 crore since it's basically a derivative of the Dhruv ALH (advanced light helicopter) already being inducted into the armed forces.

The twin-engine LCH will be armed with a 20mm turret twin-barrel gun, cluster bombs, rocket pods as well as air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. Designed for anti-tank and anti-infantry roles with a maximum speed of 275 kmph, it will also be capable of high-altitude warfare since its operational ceiling will be 16,000 to 18,000 feet.

"The LCH will incorporate a number of stealth features and crash-worthy landing gear for better survivability. The LCH will have a narrow fuselage, with two crew stations," said an official.

IAF has projected an initial requirement of 65 LCHs, also fitted with helmet-mounted targeting systems, electronic warfare equipment and electro-optics, to bolster its attack helicopter fleet.

HAL&#039;s Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) to Fly by March 2009 | India Defence

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## shchinese

ejaz007 said:


> All discussion related to LCH please post here:
> 
> *HAL's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) to Fly by March 2009*
> Dated 24/11/2008
> 
> India's first indigenous dedicated attack chopper, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), is finally slated to take to the skies in March next year after a few false starts over the last couple of years.
> 
> "After the first prototype's maiden flight in March 2009, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) says LCH should be ready for the initial operational clearance (IOC) by December 2010," a senior defence ministry official told TOI.
> 
> With the final operational clearance (FOC) a year or so after that, the newly revised timeframes hold that the 5.5-tonne LCH should be ready for induction into IAF by 2012-2013.
> 
> The project development cost of LCH is currently pegged at only Rs 376.67 crore since it's basically a derivative of the Dhruv ALH (advanced light helicopter) already being inducted into the armed forces.
> 
> The twin-engine LCH will be armed with a 20mm turret twin-barrel gun, cluster bombs, rocket pods as well as air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. Designed for anti-tank and anti-infantry roles with a maximum speed of 275 kmph, it will also be capable of high-altitude warfare since its operational ceiling will be 16,000 to 18,000 feet.
> 
> "The LCH will incorporate a number of stealth features and crash-worthy landing gear for better survivability. The LCH will have a narrow fuselage, with two crew stations," said an official.
> 
> IAF has projected an initial requirement of 65 LCHs, also fitted with helmet-mounted targeting systems, electronic warfare equipment and electro-optics, to bolster its attack helicopter fleet.
> 
> HAL's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) to Fly by March 2009 | India Defence



Arjun failed.
LCA is going to be declared as a failure in months. 
LCH? that will just be another failure.

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## satishkumarcsc

shchinese said:


> Arjun failed.
> LCA is going to be declared as a failure in months.
> LCH? that will just be another failure.



And the CAG of Indian defence production has spoken

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## shchinese

satishkumarcsc said:


> And the CAG of Indian defence production has spoken



Arjun is a failure, this is called FACT. LCA have been in development for more than 25 years, but still in the laughable "testing" phase. this is called *failure*. based on such recent R&D record, LCH has very high chance to be another BIG failure. 

I am a strong believer that not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, your projects in the past 20-30 years have successfully proved that India is just one of those nations. 

On the other hand, Pakistan is so different, you see new MBTs and fighters got designed by joint projects with different countries, sure it is still not 100% designed in Pak, but I can clearly see the trend. What you have on hand? 

LCA's engine (which is far simple than the WS-10A used in J-10/J-11B) can't be designed in India, seeking foreign helps now, arjun received numerous foreign helps, but still failure. tell me why? 

because not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, however we now have this LCH joke again.

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## satishkumarcsc

shchinese said:


> Arjun is a failure, this is called FACT. LCA have been in development for more than 25 years, but still in the laughable "testing" phase. this is called *failure*. based on such recent R&D record, LCH has very high chance to be another BIG failure.
> 
> I am a strong believer that not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, your projects in the past 20-30 years have successfully proved that India is just one of those nations.
> 
> On the other hand, Pakistan is so different, you see new MBTs and fighters got designed by joint projects with different countries, sure it is still not 100&#37; designed in Pak, but I can clearly see the trend. What you have on hand?
> 
> Atleast provide me the secifications of the WS 10 engine..
> 
> LCA's engine (which is far simple than the WS-10A used in J-10/J-11B) can't be designed in India, seeking foreign helps now, arjun received numerous foreign helps, but still failure. tell me why?
> 
> because not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, however we now have this LCH joke again.




So did you design or see the Kaveri engine in person? Did you set the parameters for tests? Do you have any credible proof that WS 10 engine has already been fitted to the J 10?


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## smeaglegolum

satishkumarcsc said:


> So did you design or see the Kaveri engine in person? Did you set the parameters for tests? Do you have any credible proof that WS 10 engine has already been fitted to the J 10?



The WS-10 engine has been certified recently it seems. They took 5 years for ripping-off.

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## shchinese

I have been recently asking myself what kind of life those normal average Indians can have if the current regime of India doesn't choose to be the world trouble maker. basically:

more schools/hospitals/roads/sea ports/airports can be built. however, the current situation is India is upgrading dozens of air forces bases while there is no decent international airport in most of its population centers. 

example here:
an average airport in a 3rd class Chinese city. (first class cities: Beijing/shanghai/Hong Kong etc, second class: Nanjing/Shenzhen/Guangzhou/Tianjing etc.)

I just don't understand when you don't have a strong industral sector, why you just waste all your money on such Combat Helicopters? how about investing more money on electronics industry? how about helping your car industry to produce better cars? 

street in new delhi:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/new_delhi_street2_nr.jpg

when millions of troops are being taught how to shoot, how about teach the population more science and more technology? how about spend more on university education? how about upgrade some campuses? 

however, the evil regime doesn't just stop there, they drag other nations into the arm race, they operate aircraft carriers for offensive missions, thus all neighbor countries have to spend more on navy gears. they imports a lot of fighters thus other countries have also need to spend less on education/infrastructure as they all have to keep up. 

Now we have this LCH project. FFS, how about just let we people in developing country have a better go and not to start another round of arm race?

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## shchinese

satishkumarcsc said:


> So did you design or see the Kaveri engine in person? Did you set the parameters for tests? Do you have any credible proof that WS 10 engine has already been fitted to the J 10?



No, WS-10A engine will only be used for J-11B. J-11B fitted with WS-10A have already been deployed to combat units. 

btw: J-11B is not the licensed Su-27, check some open sources to see the HUGE differences.


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## Nihat

again , please , no one feed the Troll


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## smeaglegolum

shchinese said:


> I have been recently asking myself what kind of life those normal average Indians can have if the current regime of India doesn't choose to be the world trouble maker. basically:
> 
> more schools/hospitals/roads/sea ports/airports can be built. however, the current situation is India is upgrading dozens of air forces bases while there is no decent international airport in most of its population centers.
> 
> example here:
> an average airport in a 3rd class Chinese city. (first class cities: Beijing/shanghai/Hong Kong etc, second class: Nanjing/Shenzhen/Guangzhou/Tianjing etc.)
> 
> I just don't understand when you don't have a strong industral sector, why you just waste all your money on such Combat Helicopters? how about investing more money on electronics industry? how about helping your car industry to produce better cars?
> 
> street in new delhi:
> http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/new_delhi_street2_nr.jpg
> 
> when millions of troops are being taught how to shoot, how about teach the population more science and more technology? how about spend more on university education? how about upgrade some campuses?
> 
> however, the evil regime doesn't just stop there, they drag other nations into the arm race, they operate aircraft carriers for offensive missions, thus all neighbor countries have to spend more on navy gears. they imports a lot of fighters thus other countries have also need to spend less on education/infrastructure as they all have to keep up.
> 
> Now we have this LCH project. FFS, how about just let we people in developing country have a better go and not to start another round of arm race?



So you have even copied the airports . Stick to topic, btw.


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## shchinese

smeaglegolum said:


> So you have even copied the airports . Stick to topic, btw.



Yes, we have. 

We copied the busy streets from the west to pretend that we are the second biggest economy in this world by PPP. 

A typical lifted road in my hometown Shanghai. 

we also got too much money to invest in rural areas like this. when I say invest, I mean copied roads.

copied roads in Sichuan.

we also copied the western urban planning skills and a few forests have already been built.
here
and here


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## ejaz007

Nihat said:


> again , please , no one feed the Troll



Instead of declaring others troll it would be better if you provide facts that deny scchinese claims.

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## ejaz007

Some background into LCH project:

*Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) *

Previously known as the *LAH (Light attack helicopter)*, and not to be confused with the Lancer LAH (Light attack Helicopter), which is a derivative of the Cheetah helicopter, *HAL's recently rechristened Light Combat Helicopter (LCH )* is a dedicated combat and gunship variant of the existing Advanced Light Helicopter(Dhruv/ALH), being developed to a draft IAF and IA requirement. The LCH belongs to the 5.5 ton class, with a narrow fuselage accommodating a pilot and a gunner/co-pilot in tandem configuartion. The LCH will feature a full glass cockpit for both the pilot and gunner,as well as eye level displays.

The Light Combat Helicopter is powered by engines made by Turbomeca of France, and fitted with anti-tank missiles, air-to-air missiles and electronic warfare equipment, will perform anti-tank and counter insurgency roles, as well as scout duites, escort to heliborne operations and support for combat SAR operations. Armament includes a chin mounted twin barrel 20 mm cannon, rockets, air to surface and air to air missiles. 

The LCH will have a glass cockpit with multifunction displays, a target acquisition and designation system with FLIR, Laser rangefinder and laser designator. Weapons will be aimed with a helmet mounted sight and there will be an electronic warfare suite with radar warning receiver, laser warning receiver and a missile approach warning system. 

Aero India 2003 revealed a full scale mock up of India's new Light Combat Helicopter from HAL. At that time it was expected to be operational within four years. The IAF offered Rs. 300 crores to fund in part the LCH project, and according to HAL Chairman N.R. Mohanty, the helicopter will make its maiden flight in 2005. The LCH proposal was at an advanced stage, and would need 25 months to fly from date of project launch and another two years for weaponisation. 

The Light Combat Helicopter proposal sponsored by the IAF may face rough weather in its weapon fit, if the Army is not taken on board, now that it has issued its new Doctrine and attack helicopters form a major feature. Rumors of Israeli participation in the project have proven to be unsubstantiated. 

*Specifications *

Maximum Weight 5500 kg 
Max. Cruise at SL 260 km/h 
VNE 330 km/h 
Max. Operating altitude 6500 m 
Ferry range with interm.load 700 km 
Max. height 5300 mm 
Main rotor diameter 13300 mm 
Max. Length 16000 mm 
Wing Span 3550 mm 
Tail rotor diameter 2054 mm 
Armament 20 mm gun 
Air to surface missiles 
Air-to-Air missiles 
Unguided rockets 
Iron bombs,Cluster bomb units,Grenade launchers 
Anti-radiation missiles 

Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)


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## Nihat

Ejaz - half of shChinese claims are facts and the other half are crap , I cannot argue against either.

If he says LCH is going to be a failure then I have no other option than to believe that he/she has a crystal ball. I don't know much about LCH , since shchinese knows I will let him/her talk about and I will stay quiet.

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## shchinese

Nihat said:


> Ejaz - half of shChinese claims are facts and the other half are crap , I cannot argue against either.
> 
> If he says LCH is going to be a failure then I have no other option than to believe that he/she has a crystal ball. I don't know much about LCH , since shchinese knows I will let him/her talk about and I will stay quiet.



OK, keep focusing on LCH and I hope you guys can get it ready for active service before I retire. 

make sure your LCH is going to be better than this:

http://karosszek.blog.hirszerzo.hu/__upload/picture/42/1_wz10_1.jpg


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## Indicom

It would be,don't panic now,at least.


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## ejaz007

*Serial production of IDAS for India*

Saab recently received two serial production orders for the Integrated Defensive Aids Suite (IDAS) for the Indian Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv.

Image: Saab has received production orders for the Integrated Defensive Aids Suite (IDAS) for the Indian Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv. Photo: Marketing Department HAL. 


12/22/2008 The combined value of these orders from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is approximately SEK 196 million. 

The IDAS will be installed on Indias weapon systems version of Advanced Light Helicopter, also known as Dhruv, to provide these platforms with Electronic Warfare self-protection. The helicopter features a modern glass cockpit with which the IDAS system is fully integrated. 

*A long-term relationship* 

We are proud of being a supplier for this advanced helicopter and look forward to continuing our cooperation and long term relationship with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, says Micael Johansson, Managing Director for Saab Avitronics. 

These two production orders follow initial orders for development and prototype deliveries as well as the first series production order received earlier this year for the Indian Dhruv helicopter. 

The development and production will take place at Saab Avitronics in Centurion, South Africa. 

IDAS is the worlds most comprehensive integrated Electronic Warfare suite for airborne platforms and has been the choice for the Denel Rooivalk and Oryx, NH Industries NH90, Agusta Westland Super Lynx 300 and A109, Boeing CH47 Chinook, Eurocopter Cougar and Super Puma. 

Saab - Technology for a Changing World - Serial production of IDAS for India


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## Aaban Khan

shchinese.... Oh... signs of Chinese frustration... increasingly more Chinese are becoming jealous of India... earlier it was not like this... infact most Indians admire chinese acheivements but chinese members are just spitting venom and sarcasm...

Don't worry sir... LCH, LCA, and Arjun will be taken care by Indians, if you find them being delayed just rejoice it till you retire but signs of spitting venom just indicates a hidden frustration or jealousy which you are trying to hide. So, just rejoice do not spit venom. OK. Dont spoil my high opinion about chinese by behaving like a indecent troll.


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## Beskar

Aaban Khan said:


> shchinese.... Oh... signs of Chinese frustration... increasingly more Chinese are becoming jealous of India...



Jealous of India? Ha! The only ones who are jealous of India are your OWN suppressed minorities and "untouchables" who aren't offered equal rights and facilities.



> Dont spoil my high opinion about chinese by behaving like a indecent troll.



Comparing your post count with Shchinese, you're more vulnerable to be tagged as a troll.

As for LCH, let's not forget that HAL dhruv was a success. Even though i'm not aware of the development specifications of the project, It's known as a decent transport and reconnaissance helicopter. 

But in my opinion, LCH would be a failure. When you look at the military developments from India, MOST of them are failures. Arjunk and LCA being the top most.

What i CAN tell from the early pictures of LCH is that it would require Six AA energizer batteries. 

Best of luck

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## ahmeddsid

shchinese said:


> I have been recently asking myself what kind of life those normal average Indians can have if the current regime of India doesn't choose to be the world trouble maker. basically:
> 
> more schools/hospitals/roads/sea ports/airports can be built. however, the current situation is India is upgrading dozens of air forces bases while there is no decent international airport in most of its population centers.
> 
> example here:
> an average airport in a 3rd class Chinese city. (first class cities: Beijing/shanghai/Hong Kong etc, second class: Nanjing/Shenzhen/Guangzhou/Tianjing etc.)
> 
> I just don't understand when you don't have a strong industral sector, why you just waste all your money on such Combat Helicopters? how about investing more money on electronics industry? how about helping your car industry to produce better cars?
> 
> street in new delhi:
> http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/new_delhi_street2_nr.jpg
> 
> when millions of troops are being taught how to shoot, how about teach the population more science and more technology? how about spend more on university education? how about upgrade some campuses?
> 
> however, the evil regime doesn't just stop there, they drag other nations into the arm race, they operate aircraft carriers for offensive missions, thus all neighbor countries have to spend more on navy gears. they imports a lot of fighters thus other countries have also need to spend less on education/infrastructure as they all have to keep up.
> 
> Now we have this LCH project. FFS, how about just let we people in developing country have a better go and not to start another round of arm race?


Car Industry produce better cars? who are u kidding? the chinese got sued by GM for copying many of their models! lol u guys copied the korean Daewoo which was later bought by GM!!! I know chinese cars, I know Indian cars, I prefer the Indian ones because atleast its original and not COPIED! 

LCA was started in 1990, for ur info.

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## afriend

shchinese said:


> OK, keep focusing on LCH and I hope you guys can get it ready for active service before I retire.
> 
> make sure your LCH is going to be better than this:
> 
> http://karosszek.blog.hirszerzo.hu/__upload/picture/42/1_wz10_1.jpg



I dont know a thing about what what you are talking about..!! But see we have got independance only for 60 years... and we dont have an dictatorial kinda government unlike china.. as we are a democracy..!!! So obvoiusly it will take time get a collective opinion or a consensus..!! and regarding LCH if you say indians are not going to make it.. then thats surely going to be a motivation for every indians involved in it..!!! I dont know whether they got anything from abroad or not.. but from what i heard.. they were making these indigeniously..!!!! and hey as a country which gained independance through non vilonce method... we would be more than willing to reduce the defence spending if every of our neighbours do the same.. which no body is going to do...!!!


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## ejaz007

ahmeddsid said:


> Car Industry produce better cars? who are u kidding? the chinese got sued by GM for copying many of their models! lol u guys copied the korean Daewoo which was later bought by GM!!! I know chinese cars, I know Indian cars, I prefer the Indian ones because atleast its original and not COPIED!
> 
> LCA was started in 1990, for ur info.



LCA has been discussed in detail under the relevant thread. Kindly read those and you would understand.

LCA was sanctioned in 1983 not in 1990. Its 25 years old program and still in testing phase. Here is one link that is relevant:

Sanctioned in '83, LCA Tejas is yet to take off-India-The Times of India


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## nitesh

ejaz007 said:


> LCA has been discussed in detail under the relevant thread. Kindly read those and you would understand.
> 
> LCA was sanctioned in 1983 not in 1990. Its 25 years old program and still in testing phase. Here is one link that is relevant:
> 
> Sanctioned in '83, LCA Tejas is yet to take off-India-The Times of India



No this is not as simple

From august interview



> Programme Director (CA) and Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, P.S. Subramanyam
> 
> One keeps hearing conflicting stories on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). What is the update on the project?
> 
> To understand the LCA, it is necessary to go to the beginning. People say that the project started in 1983. The truth is that the Air Staff Requirements (ASR) itself was not available in 1983. All that had happened was that the country had conceptually decided on a need for the LCA and a sanction of Rs 560 crore was made. It took about five to six years to arrive at a definition of what the LCA should be. The ASR was given in 1985 and by 1988 we understood what the air force was looking for. After this, we started the project definition studies and the summary of these studies stated that seven prototypes should be made as is normally done all over the world. But in 1990-91, the government felt that so much of a risk could not be taken and the requirement of seven prototypes was split into two phases: two technology demonstrators (TD) followed by five prototypes. In the TD stage we were told that no sensor or weaponisation was required; only certain technologies were to be demonstrated. In April 1993, an amount of Rs 2,188 crore was allocated only for the TD, implying that before this, funds were not available to launch the full scale programme. The technologies needed to be demonstrated were composite-based wing structure, digital fly-by-wire flight control system, all digital avionics and computer-based control of electro-mechanical systems.
> 
> In January 2001, the TD1 was flown and the government saw the promise in the programme. In November 2001, the government gave the go-ahead to start work on the proto-vehicles (PV), which are basically meant for sensors and weapons integration. Till this time, the government did not fund us to make a fighting machine or PVs for which funds to the tune of Rs 3301 crore were released then. The sanction fund of Rs 3,301 crore is not only for the proto-vehicles but for the limited serial production (LSP) of eight aircraft, including the infrastructure needed for them to establish a production line of eight aircraft per annum. This was the turning point for the programme. In June 2002, we flew the TD2 and in November 2003, we flew PV1.
> 
> There was a transformation at this stage as we realised that an entire generation of electronics had changed by 2001. Fortunately, by 1998-99, we decided to make the entire avionics of the aircraft with an open system of architecture. Hence, the PV2 that flew in December 2005 was with an open system of architecture. The advantage is that it allows us to tackle obsolescence of electronic hardware. In this process, we were able to make nearly 80 per cent of avionics indigenously. Today, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is very happy with us on this issue because we have the most current concept of avionics in the aircraft. In December 2006 we flew PV3, and in April 2007 the LSP1 version. The LSP2 was flown recently in June 2008. Today, we have seven aircraft in flying condition: TD1, TD2, PV1, PV2, PV3, LSP1 and LSP2. Our first trainer aircraft is round the corner, probably in another two months. We are now very close to programme completion. We are looking for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December 2010 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by 2012. In March 2006, the IAF placed the order for 20 aircraft in IOC configuration.
> 
> Today, in terms of the aircraft, we look at two major aspects. The first is the flight envelope expansion, implying the altitude and speed of the aircraft as well as acceleration and manoeuvres. In this respect, we have already validated all the parameters except the angle of attack. We are presently, at 20 when the required is 22. The second aspect is sensors and weapons integration. We have integrated the day and night attack sensor system, what is called the Litening Pod and the helmet-mounted display system (HMDS) for slewing the radar and litening pod towards the target. What is now pending is radar integration and release of weapons. We did the sea trials in June 2007 at Arakonam. In November 2007, we fired a close combat missile (CCM) from the aircraft in Goa and recently (May 28-June 4) we completed the hot weather trials in Nagpur.

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## IceCold

afriend said:


> we would be more than willing to reduce the defence spending *if every of our neighbours do the same*.. which no body is going to do...!!!



Since you missed the news, let me refresh your memory that Pakistan already did that expecting India to do the same as well which by the way never happened and we all know why, doesnt fit India's equation of war Hysteria and domination.


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## shrivatsa

Will it be displayed in Bangalore aero India 09

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## LCA

LCH's maiden flight trail in May-June

Bangalore, Jan 17: The first flight of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) will be conducted in May-June, defence major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited Chairman, Ashok Baweja said.

HAL had earlier fixed the trials during last March, but postponed it.

"We took up LCH project two years ago. We had exciting results. First flight will take place in May-June," the HAL Chairman said in his address at the Air Chief Marshal L M Katre Memorial Lecture here.

HAL has got orders for 260 aircraft valued at Rs 17,000 crore and at least 80 aircraft will roll out from its hangars this year, he said.

Dhruv helicopter will undergo cold weather trails from today, Baweja said.

HAL, which is a USD two billion company now, plans to double its revenues in the coming two years and touch USD 11 billion by 2011, he said.

The company has decided to spend Rs 25,000 crore on development and design activities and to produce 350 aircraft by 2012, Baweja said.

HAL is working on a navigation system and development of indigenous cockpit and cabin fibre, he said.

It was creating technology parks within its factories to promote private participation in production of equipment, Baweja said.

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## LCA

Dhruv ALH's Defensive Aids Suite

The CIDAS defensive aids suite has already selected by the Indian Air Force (IAF) *for installation on board its 16 armed Dhruv ALH helicopters on order from HAL, and will also find its way on board the Light Combat Helicopter, whose first prototype will be rolled out this March.* In addition, the CIDAS will also most likely be on board the to-be-upgraded Ka-28PL, Ka-31 and Sea King Mk42B helicopters and the initial 16 yet-to-be-selected shipborne ASW/ASV helicopters of the Indian Navy, and also on the 60 armed Dhruv ALHs that the Indian Army will be procuring for its projected Combat Aviation Brigade, which will also be employed for vertical envelopment operations in support of expeditionary amphibious warfare campaigns. A version of CIDAS also exists for combat aircraft and will in all probability be selected for installation on board the Su-30MKI in the near future, since the Su-30MKIs lack on-board missile approach warning systems and laser warning systems. The RMAF Su-30MKMs are already equipped with CIDAS.


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## chirag.s

IceCold said:


> Since you missed the news, let me refresh your memory that Pakistan already did that expecting India to do the same as well which by the way never happened and we all know why, doesnt fit India's equation of war Hysteria and domination.



dude spending 3% of the GDP does not contribute to hysteria and domination just because pakistan feels unsafe.... you guys are spending more than 10% of your GDP if our govt were doing that (they will never do that ) the whole case would have been different 

DONT COMPARE DEFENCE SPENDING IN TERMS OF $ COMPARE IT ON THE SCALE OF GDP


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## chirag.s

shrivatsa said:


> Will it be displayed in Bangalore aero India 09



in AI 2007 there was a mock up the bird is really huge it looks small in those CG drawings i expect the same full scale mock up to be displayed again


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## chirag.s

shchinese said:


> Arjun is a failure, this is called FACT. LCA have been in development for more than 25 years, but still in the laughable "testing" phase. this is called *failure*. based on such recent R&D record, LCH has very high chance to be another BIG failure.
> 
> I am a strong believer that not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, your projects in the past 20-30 years have successfully proved that India is just one of those nations.
> 
> On the other hand, Pakistan is so different, you see new MBTs and fighters got designed by joint projects with different countries, sure it is still not 100&#37; designed in Pak, but I can clearly see the trend. What you have on hand?
> 
> LCA's engine (which is far simple than the WS-10A used in J-10/J-11B) can't be designed in India, seeking foreign helps now, arjun received numerous foreign helps, but still failure. tell me why?
> 
> because not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, however we now have this LCH joke again.



dude we accept our failures not copy some other country's tech.and claim that we are successful in everything .there is something called R&D which i am sure you guys are not even spending a dollar on it 
WE ARE PROUD OF OUR MOUSE YOU CAN BE PROUD OF YOUR *CLONED* FLAME BREATHING MONSTER.

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## aditya_friend

let the chinese lie in peace . he even thinks that j-11 and su-27 are different . communists are dictators thats why your pm got a shoe thrown at him .


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## duhastmish

Any updates on LCH? when do we have the revised test flight date.


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## aditya_friend

duhastmish said:


> Any updates on LCH? when do we have the revised test flight date.



i read somewhere ist quarter of 2009


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## zombie:-)

hi guys


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## aditya_friend

zombie:-) said:


> hi guys



looks like a mean machine


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## indiatech

LCH delayed by an year

Business Standard, 10th Feb 09


Visitors to Aero India 2009, being held in Bangalore from 11th to 15th February 09, who hoped to catch a first-ever glimpse of Indias high-tech Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), will go back disappointed. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has told Business Standard that design glitches --- including extra weight and delays in manufacturing the tooling on which the LCH will be fabricated --- have pushed back the first flight by up to a year.



Some consolation will be afforded to enthusiasts of indigenous production from the first display flights of a black leopard-painted prototype of the armed Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter. Called the Weapons Systems Integrated Dhruv (WSI Dhruv) this is the machine on which the LCHs armaments and sensors are being perfected, even as designers struggle to pare down the extra 250 kilos that have come up on the LCH.



An extra 250 kilos may not seem much on a 5.5 ton helicopter, but it really is a serious problem, explains HALs helicopter design chief, N Seshadri. At altitudes of 6000 metres (almost 20,000 feet), which the LCH must operate at, the air is so thin that it can only carry a weapons payload of about 350-500 kg. If the helicopter ends up 250 kg heavier than planned, its high altitude firepower will be dramatically reduced.



Being built on the basic design of the Dhruv ALH, the LCH is currently HALs most prestigious project. Many of its components, including the engine, crucial moving parts like the rotor, and the instrumentation of the LCH have already been tested on the Dhruv. Armaments and sensors are taking shape on the WSI-Dhruv. With much of this already done, HAL had planned to fly its first LCH prototype by December 08; a second prototype was to be readied in the first half of this year. But that timeline has turned out to be too ambitious.



One reason is that the LCH is technologically far more complex than the Dhruv. The Dhruv is a utility helicopter, designed for simple tasks like reconnaissance, casualty evacuation and for conveying small teams of up to 7 soldiers. In contrast, the LCH is an attack helicopter, a flying weapons platform built purely for combat. It must fly and fight by day and by night, bringing down missile, rocket and cannon fire on dangerous enemy targets like tanks. To avoid detection by radars and by individuals it must fly almost at ground level; its crew needs bulletproofing against ground fire. It must have sophisticated electronics to confuse enemy radars.



The private sector company that has designed the LCHs fuselaeg, Plexion Technologies, is working overtime to cut down the extra 250 kg. Meanwhile HAL is trying to convince the air force to accept the first prototype with some extra weight, so that flight tests can begin even as Plexion slims down the LCH.



There are some delays also in selecting the weapons systems that the LCH will carry. The air-to-air missile, which will be bought from abroad, has not been selected. The LCH was to be fitted with the DRDOs Nag anti-tank missile, but the services want a missile that can hit tanks at 7 kilometers, compared with the 4 km range of the Nag. So while the DRDO works on a longer-range version of the Nag (called the HELINA, or Helicopter-mounted Nag), a foreign missile will have to be bought as an interim solution.


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## LCA

domain-b.com : AeroIndia 2009: Combat Helicopter prototype will fly in 2009: HAL design chief

*AeroIndia 2009: Combat Helicopter prototype will fly in 2009: HAL design chief news 
*
11 February 2009 

Bengaluru: The prototype of India's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is presently being built and will fly by the end of the year, said HAL Rotor Wing Research & Development Centre (RWRDC) Design Chief Dr Prasad Sampath. He was speaking on 'Development of Helicopters in India &#12539;An Overview' today, at the Aero India 2009 International Seminar on 'Aerospace &#12539;Perspectives and Trends in Technologies', being held in Bengaluru from 9 to 12 February.

He said that the cockpit and fuselage design for LCH was complete, and the mock up trials were over last year. All dynamic systems of the LCH are identical to HAL's Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and only the fuselage and the landing gear have been designed afresh for the fighting version of the chopper. 

After considerable design analysis, the weight class of the LCH has been maintained the same as the ALH, and therefore there should be little difficulty in the prototype successfully flying, he said.

The HAL RWRDC has also developed a helicopter simulator called the Hats-Off Simulator, which can be fitted with all the different cockpit mockups of the different choppers that HAL makes, he said.


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## GlobalStrategist

Anyway, there seems to be no new info on the LCH. Think they're becoming more media-savvy and doing the tests in secret, and only announcing them when they tweak the product and succeed, like everyone else in the world. open societies and accountability have their drawbacks. 

Don't think the shchinese dude really noticed that the WZ-10 is a copy of the Agusta A129 Mangusta which the Chinese evaluated it back in the 80's. 


Our friend's link to a WZ-10

The Agusta A129 Mangusta

How typical. Let them have a few minutes to write down technical details, open up the hood for a few pics and they'll produce it. They may not know how to use it or even what it is.

I popped across to Shenzhen, where i got a TV remote replicated. The supposed engineer put components together in the same way my busted remote was put together. He had no idea what the finished product was supposed to be or do, because i'd just given him the chip-board, and not the remote casing.

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## AJSINGH

chinese people are damm proud of their technology ,their R&D program ,should be replaced by C&P , copy and paste .and they critise us for our indeginious program 
whole chinnese air force is based on copied desgins from russia , so sad , couldnt develop aircraft on their own so why not copy ,


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## lilaspr

GlobalStrategist said:


> Anyway, there seems to be no new info on the LCH. *Think they're becoming more media-savvy and doing the tests in secret*, and only announcing them when they tweak the product and succeed, like everyone else in the world. open societies and accountability have their drawbacks.
> 
> Don't think the shchinese dude really noticed that the WZ-10 is a copy of the Agusta A129 Mangusta which the Chinese evaluated it back in the 80's.
> 
> 
> Our friend's link to a WZ-10
> 
> 
> The Agusta A129 Mangusta
> 
> How typical. Let them have a few minutes to write down technical details, open up the hood for a few pics and they'll produce it. They may not know how to use it or even what it is.
> 
> I popped across to Shenzhen, where i got a TV remote replicated. The supposed engineer put components together in the same way my busted remote was put together. He had no idea what the finished product was supposed to be or do, because i'd just given him the chip-board, and not the remote casing.




This is good, I am following Indian media for long, they are more corrupt then Indian politician. Just for the sake of more TRP they can say whatever they want, doesn't matter weather its is for the country or against.

I guess, its an good idea for ISI to pay them some bucks and they will talk what they want. It is more effective then training guys for terrorism. 

$$$$$$ what they are looking for only. No responsibility as a media.

This much freedom of press is not even in Germany, UK or in USA no where, forget China.

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## aimarraul

any photos about this LCH?i posted this news before.but till now ,all we can see is the mode.i would like to know more ,thanks for sharing


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## maxx

AJSINGH said:


> chinese people are damm proud of their technology ,their R&D program ,should be replaced by C&P , copy and paste .and they critise us for our indeginious program
> whole chinnese air force is based on copied desgins from russia , so sad , couldnt develop aircraft on their own so why not copy ,


Can't you see the differences or do you need someone to list them out?

front landing gear
fuselage shape
turbine enclosure, shapewise 
nose mounted sensor
# of tail rotor blades, Z-10 (4) A129 (2)
...and many more

Seriously, when you criticize something atleast try to be rational.


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## aimarraul

maxx said:


> Can't you see the differences or do you need someone to list them out?
> 
> front landing gear
> fuselage shape
> turbine enclosure, shapewise
> nose mounted sensor
> # of tail rotor blades, Z-10 (4) A129 (2)
> ...and many more
> 
> Seriously, when you criticize something atleast try to be rational.



it's still a copy even if WZ-10 is a helicopter with rotor blades, that's the law


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## wangrong

lilaspr said:


> This is good, I am following Indian media for long, they are more corrupt then Indian politician. Just for the sake of more TRP they can say whatever they want, doesn't matter weather its is for the country or against.
> 
> I guess, its an good idea for ISI to pay them some bucks and they will talk what they want. It is more effective then training guys for terrorism.
> 
> $$$$$$ what they are looking for only. No responsibility as a media.
> 
> This much freedom of press is not even in Germany, UK or in USA no where, *forget China*.



forget China&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;forget China&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;forget China&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;forget

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## qsaark

India will shortly test fly the indigenously designed and built Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), which will augment the IAF&#8217;s fleet of small and highly manoeuvrable rotary flying machines.

A &#8216;baby&#8217; of the Bangalore-headquartered defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the first prototype of LCH is expected to take to the skies between December 26 and December 29, a senior HAL official told PTI here on Monday.

HAL has already bagged a firm order to deliver 65 LCH to the IAF and 114 to the Army, company sources said.

Unlike HAL&#8217;s Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) &#8220;Dhruv&#8221; which has been described as broad and bloated, the LCH is very, very sleek. The new light chopper is currently undergoing functional tests, and is expected to be ready for ground run by December 24.

&#8220;It (LCH) is quite different from ALH in terms of configuration and structure,&#8221; the official closely associated with the project, said on condition of anonymity.

HAL hopes to obtain certification for LCH in 2012-13, and the delivery of the machines is expected from 2014-15.

LCH would also have a weaponised version, similar to ALH.

&#8220;There will be rocket pods, a machine gun and also an air-to-air missiles in the combat version of LCH. But in the first prototype all these features will not be there,&#8221; the official said.

HAL has also started design of a light observation helicopter (LOH) which would eventually replace the ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters which have been in service since 1978. &#8220;We have got about 600 of them (Cheetah and Chetak) in service now. They are reaching the end of their technical life as they have flown 60,000 hours or more,&#8221; he said.






Source: The Hindu : News / National : India to test fly light combat helicopters by month-end

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## Im_a_bud_bud

qsaark said:


> India will shortly test fly the indigenously designed and built Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), which will augment the IAFs fleet of small and highly manoeuvrable rotary flying machines.
> 
> A baby of the Bangalore-headquartered defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the first prototype of LCH is expected to take to the skies between December 26 and December 29, a senior HAL official told PTI here on Monday.
> 
> HAL has already bagged a firm order to deliver 65 LCH to the IAF and 114 to the Army, company sources said.
> 
> Unlike HALs Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv which has been described as broad and bloated, the LCH is very, very sleek. The new light chopper is currently undergoing functional tests, and is expected to be ready for ground run by December 24.
> 
> It (LCH) is quite different from ALH in terms of configuration and structure, the official closely associated with the project, said on condition of anonymity.
> 
> HAL hopes to obtain certification for LCH in 2012-13, and the delivery of the machines is expected from 2014-15.
> 
> LCH would also have a weaponised version, similar to ALH.
> 
> There will be rocket pods, a machine gun and also an air-to-air missiles in the combat version of LCH. But in the first prototype all these features will not be there, the official said.
> 
> HAL has also started design of a light observation helicopter (LOH) which would eventually replace the ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters which have been in service since 1978. We have got about 600 of them (Cheetah and Chetak) in service now. They are reaching the end of their technical life as they have flown 60,000 hours or more, he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: The Hindu : News / National : India to test fly light combat helicopters by month-end



And the govt is spending its money on this pos why? Shouldn't we allocate this resource where it's needed more such as health care and poverty? The more funds which go into those 2 areas the better, we have no time and money for this wasteful equipment.

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## Spitfighter

Im_a_bud_bud said:


> And the govt is spending its money on this pos why? Shouldn't we allocate this resource where it's needed more such as health care and poverty? The more funds which go into those 2 areas the better, we have no time and money for this wasteful equipment.




Since you *clearly* know so much about the budget, how about enlightening the rest of us as to what percent of the GDP we spend on defense, health care and social schemes. 

The LCH hasn't even been tested yet, so no one really knows if its a POS or not. How exactly did you come to your conclusions? 

Furthermore, since you understand our military doctrine so well, do explain why we would never need an attack chopper in the first place and if we do, why is it a bad idea to produce them locally?

Who do you think will come to India's defense should a war break out tomorrow? I understand that the health care system has severe shortcomings but institutional changes take time to gather momentum. These problems can't be solved just by throwing money at them. They require greater transparency, accountability and professionalism.

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## Im_a_bud_bud

Spitfighter said:


> Since you *clearly* know so much about the budget, how about enlightening the rest of us as to what percent of the GDP we spend on defense, health care and social schemes.
> 
> The LCH hasn't even been tested yet, so no one really knows if its a POS or not. How exactly did you come to your conclusions?
> 
> Furthermore, since you understand our military doctrine so well, do explain why we would never need an attack chopper in the first place and if we do, why is it a bad idea to produce them locally?
> 
> Who do you think will come to India's defense should a war break out tomorrow? I understand that the health care system has severe shortcomings but institutional changes take time to gather momentum. These problems can't be solved just by throwing money at them. They require greater transparency, accountability and professionalism.



Because a combat chopper isn't needed so much, which of our enemies have combat choppers being used on a mass scale? NAME THEM! Why bother in such a case, when acquiring a couple of heavy combat choppers would be sufficient. Clearly, you are an idiot when it comes to reading. I say the more budget that goes into healthcare, the better. Who cares about allocated spending, when don't we relocate spending and save where necessary. Don't start an argument when you don't know where you're taking it!!

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## grey boy 2

Im_a_bud_bud said:


> Because a combat chopper isn't needed so much, which of our enemies have combat choppers being used on a mass scale? NAME THEM! Why bother in such a case, when acquiring a couple of heavy combat choppers would be sufficient. Clearly, you are an idiot when it comes to reading. I say the more budget that goes into healthcare, the better. Who cares about allocated spending, when don't we relocate spending and save where necessary. Don't start an argument when you don't know where you're taking it!!



I second you, a rare sane Indian, Public health seems more important

than light combat helicopters for Indians now, here is how bad of 

your Public health care spending of India; 

*This is less than some of the sub-Saharan African countries, a World Health Organization (WHO) study of 2007-08 has revealed.*

India ranks 171 out of 175 in public health spending, says WHO study - India - The Times of India


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## idune

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/13891-india-carry-out-test-flight-lch-soon.html


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## sarthak

grey boy 2 said:


> I second you, a rare sane Indian, Public health seems more important
> 
> than light combat helicopters for Indians now, here is how bad of
> 
> your Public health care spending of India;
> 
> *This is less than some of the sub-Saharan African countries, a World Health Organization (WHO) study of 2007-08 has revealed.*
> 
> India ranks 171 out of 175 in public health spending, says WHO study - India - The Times of India



Hey greyboy. If you cant keep to the topic , go show your knowledge somewhere else.

Dont worry , we are very happy with our healthcare system. You need to worry about all types of flu which genertate in pig farms across your country and spread around the world.

Btw , we have thousands of private high tech hospitals in our country and they have agreed under a recent agreement to treat 25&#37; of their patients free of cost.
Why to spend more on healthcare when there are private hospitals that are just as good.


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## MZUBAIR

Im_a_bud_bud said:


> *And the govt is spending its money on this pos why? Shouldn't we allocate this resource where it's needed more such as health care and poverty? The more funds which go into those 2 areas the better, we have no time and money for this wasteful equipment*.



I never heard such a good statement from an Indian.
The world should work to fight against poverty and should spend high on health.

I dont find any external threat for India, nither China nor Pakistan.
India is Nuclear power and its not a honey spoon for any country to become aggressive agiant it.

But yes India should also spent on its intelligence and secure its country from intrnal threats.


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## Spitfighter

Im_a_bud_bud said:


> Because a combat chopper isn't needed so much, which of our enemies have combat choppers being used on a mass scale? NAME THEM! Why bother in such a case, when acquiring a couple of heavy combat choppers would be sufficient. Clearly, you are an idiot when it comes to reading. I say the more budget that goes into healthcare, the better. Who cares about allocated spending, when don't we relocate spending and save where necessary. Don't start an argument when you don't know where you're taking it!!



It matters little as to whether our 'enemies' have combat choppers or not, the choppers are meant to augment our ground forces and establish battlefield dominance. FYI, China has hordes of combat helicopters. 

Furthermore, India is trying to produce them *locally*, do you understand what that means? It means that they will be.. 

a) cheaper 
b) provide jobs 
c) allow us to actually sustain a war as opposed to being dependent on the whims of another nation. 

Do you understand the complexities of our geopolitical situation or are you a brain dead hippy? India spends less than 2% of its GDP on defense, why is it then that you think we should reallocate our *defense budget* to other ends? 

The health care system needs reform, no easy task for a country with more than a billion people, but that doesn't mean we should neglect other sectors, especially defense. Our defense budget (in %) is already the lowest in the region.

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## shag

So its being flown this month eh?
I just read the news at Indian Military site


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## shag

wangrong said:


> forget China&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;forget China&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;forget China&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;forget



You know he is correct! There is no media freedom in China. whats the smiley anime for?


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## faithfulguy

Spitfighter said:


> It matters little as to whether our 'enemies' have combat choppers or not, the choppers are meant to augment our ground forces and establish battlefield dominance. FYI, China has hordes of combat helicopters.
> 
> Furthermore, India is trying to produce them *locally*, do you understand what that means? It means that they will be..
> 
> a) cheaper
> b) provide jobs
> c) allow us to actually sustain a war as opposed to being dependent on the whims of another nation.
> 
> Do you understand the complexities of our geopolitical situation or are you a brain dead hippy? India spends less than 2% of its GDP on defense, why is it then that you think we should reallocate our *defense budget* to other ends?
> 
> The health care system needs reform, no easy task for a country with more than a billion people, but that doesn't mean we should neglect other sectors, especially defense. Our defense budget (in %) is already the lowest in the region.



I agree that India should just purchase existing platforms as India doesn't need that many helicoptors. Why spend all these money developing a system when all the major military suppliers would sell India advance weaponry? The existing platform are proven, easier to procure and reliable. Not saying that the LCH is not reliable but it would take time to develop a technology when India doesn't have experience when producing combat helicoptor. buying existing ones make more sense.


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## shchinese

already a recent and very active thread on this exact same topic.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/16686-indias-light-combat-helicopter-lch.html

I thus reported this thread to be merged/locked/deleted.


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## BlackSonic

shchinese said:


> already a recent and very active thread on this exact same topic.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/16686-indias-light-combat-helicopter-lch.html
> 
> I thus reported this thread to be merged/locked/deleted.



Thanks, hey can you tell me how to report a troll? I mean where is the report button?


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## DeathGod

BlackSonic said:


> Thanks, hey can you tell me how to report a troll? I mean where is the report button?



Go the extreme left of any post where user information can be seen.The report button is the exclamation mark, adjacent to your online/offline status bulb and below the Thanks/Thanked section

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## gubbi

faithfulguy said:


> *buying existing ones make more sense*.



in the short run, yes. But in the long run, the technologies developed in house, the potential to master new technologies (not re-inventing the wheel but say coating it with new rubber!), create new jobs, new industries etc will prove far more beneficial. China started with blatantly copying foreign technologies and now it can somewhat develop its own inhouse technologies. All this created jobs, built up an industrial base.
India already has technological base, albeit a small one, but we do lack a strong industrial base. And that shortcoming is what we are looking to overcome.


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

shchinese said:


> I have been recently asking myself what kind of life those normal average Indians can have if the current regime of India doesn't choose to be the world trouble maker. basically:
> 
> more schools/hospitals/roads/sea ports/airports can be built. however, the current situation is India is upgrading dozens of air forces bases while there is no decent international airport in most of its population centers.
> 
> example here:
> an average airport in a 3rd class Chinese city. (first class cities: Beijing/shanghai/Hong Kong etc, second class: Nanjing/Shenzhen/Guangzhou/Tianjing etc.)
> 
> I just don't understand when you don't have a strong industral sector, why you just waste all your money on such Combat Helicopters? how about investing more money on electronics industry? how about helping your car industry to produce better cars?
> 
> street in new delhi:
> http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/new_delhi_street2_nr.jpg
> 
> when millions of troops are being taught how to shoot, how about teach the population more science and more technology? how about spend more on university education? how about upgrade some campuses?
> 
> however, the evil regime doesn't just stop there, they drag other nations into the arm race, they operate aircraft carriers for offensive missions, thus all neighbor countries have to spend more on navy gears. they imports a lot of fighters thus other countries have also need to spend less on education/infrastructure as they all have to keep up.
> 
> Now we have this LCH project. FFS, how about just let we people in developing country have a better go and not to start another round of arm race?



you use quite often derogatory language in your replies to the threads posted........now your above reply has nothing to do with LCH helicopter...isn't.... or has no connections with the topic....i recommend you to visit a psycologist...i can see some sympotms of neophobia or misanthropia....dont take it otherwise...*just take a deep breath before you reply bad to somebody*..it might help you........its a genuine recommendation.....

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## Arik

shchinese no offence but i think u r f?$&ed in the head.U talk about Indian products,do u even have the slightest idea of how pathetic Chineses products are??????????The MADE IN CHINA toshiba laptop started giving serious problems just two weeks after purchase.A MADE IN CHINA zync jeans gives out so much colour while washing that it spoils the other clothes in the machine.Atleast India has its own homegrown programs unlike chinese copy cats.Recently i read an article that BMW is going to the take action against a chinese car manufacturer for copying its designs.Look at the ARJ ,a carbon copy of the DC-9.The list is endless.

The only reason why the Indian defence industry looks plauged with problems is because of the free media over there.Any failed launch or any kind of test is immediately reported by the media.

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## sarthak

shchinese , if you can't contribute to the thread , why post?
Anyway , what do you want to prove by showing us images of your country. I have seen enough good airports and roads in my life.

Your whole logic is flawed anyway. I can just as well post the picture of a slum in china juxtaposed against a building in my city. That doesn't prove that India is more advanced than china. Neither do your posts prove / disprove anything


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## deckingraj

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry to say but its comments like this which allow people like shchinese to hijack threads....Even if you are right still he will reply back with something not even remotely close to this thread proving how great China is and how pathetic India is...Look around any india related thread from last 3-4 days and you will see each and every thread irrespective of topic is comparing India and China....

May i ask how does it matter if chinese toshiba laptop started giving troubles or not...If shChinese believe India is nothing but a nation of fools than let it be....Will it change anything???

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## gubbi

Ignore the stupid dimwit.

back to topic,
The Indian media, as crass and insensitive as it may seem, has not managed to get a pic of the LCH yet? or that matter the INS Arihant yet! Isnt this surprising?
Anyone, anybody got a pic of the LCH prototype (not the mock models please).


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## SSG VIPER

Schinese u sure made the indians pissed

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## Spitfighter

gubbi said:


> *Ignore the stupid dimwit.*



Seconded. 



> back to topic,
> The Indian media, as crass and insensitive as it may seem, has not managed to get a pic of the LCH yet? or that matter the INS Arihant yet! *Isnt this surprising?*
> Anyone, anybody got a pic of the LCH prototype (not the mock models please).



The Arihant is kept far, far away from public view. From what I've read, one can gauge the capabilities of the sub. just by looking at the design.

I'm not sure if that applies to the LCH as well, because if it did, we wouldn't even have pictures of the model. Maybe they'll get a hold of it once its tested. Shouldn't be long, I just hope all goes as planned.

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## mgmech

*Kindly drive carefully... we have just noticed a habitual troll on this forum... and this thread is at risk..!!!!!!!!!*

@Mods.

please delete this post of scChinese and also take some suitable action...
this is totally unrelated to thread... if we start replying to this post and start belittling China and pointing out China's low quality production and the reality of extreme poverty there....scChinese will not get space to hide.... this thread will be at risk....!!!!!!!

request the mods to please stop trolls at beginning of thread itself...




shchinese said:


> I have been recently asking myself what kind of life those normal average Indians can have if the current regime of India doesn't choose to be the world trouble maker. basically:
> 
> more schools/hospitals/roads/sea ports/airports can be built. however, the current situation is India is upgrading dozens of air forces bases while there is no decent international airport in most of its population centers.
> 
> example here:
> an average airport in a 3rd class Chinese city. (first class cities: Beijing/shanghai/Hong Kong etc, second class: Nanjing/Shenzhen/Guangzhou/Tianjing etc.).......................................


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## deckingraj

SSG VIPER said:


> Schinese u sure made the indians pissed



It should have got you pissed, as well as other members(including Pakistani, Chinese) because he is ruining all the threads thereby impacting the standards of PDF....Just look at this thread..How much knowledge did you get about India's Light Combat Helicopter vs How China is better than India???

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## SSG VIPER

deckingraj said:


> It should have got you pissed, as well as other members(including Pakistani, Chinese) because he is ruining all the threads thereby impacting the standards of PDF....Just look at this thread..How much knowledge did you get about India's Light Combat Helicopter vs How China is better than India???



Thanks for the info about ur copter plus dude even ur guys do the same so try to ignore some posts that u dont like.Thanks


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## deckingraj

SSG VIPER said:


> Thanks for the info about ur copter plus dude even ur guys do the same so try to ignore some posts that u dont like.Thanks



No SSGViper i equally condemn everyone...However what is troubling me is that every single thread turning out to be India-China match....I can understand once...twice but if every thread is just about talking India-China where we will have a meaningful discussion???

Secondly there are no "My Guys" here.....You would be surprised to know that i have couple of Pakistani members in my friend list....So my advice instead of ignoring report such posts irrespective of they belonging to Chinese, Pakistani, Indian or any other nationality member...

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## sivadreams

I am not surprised at your behavior either ... If you notice I am more a silent spectator and look for strategic discussions which I look forward for my papers on defense studies. 

shchinese and your reaction to it made me break my silence.

These forums are meaningless if you guys talk about who is big and who is mighty. This should be more a technical forum than any school kids pantry fight.

I request all members from all nationality to restrain from countering even if there is any kind of provocation from hijackers and move on. I also see there are some quality posts and counter posts which is always encouraged.

I am sorry I dont contribute much here but I am one of those who look for war room discussions as a big source for strategic studies.

Thanks once again guys... ! Keep up the spirit of these forums...!!

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## yashraj

CAN WE TALK ABOUT LCH NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Haseebullah

what are the capabilities of this LCH??? i m curios to know>


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## paritosh

ejaz007 said:


> Instead of declaring others troll it would be better if you provide facts that deny scchinese claims.



dude...how can you possibly counter someone living in his own alternate reality?
that guy *KNOWS *that this LCH *WILL *fail...well what can you say about that..?


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## Haseebullah

General characteristics

* Crew: 2
* Length: 15.8 m (51ft 8in)
* Rotor diameter: 13.3 m (43 ft 6 in)
* Height: 4.7 m (15 ft 4 in)
* Disc area: 138.9 m&#178; (1472 ft&#178
* Empty weight: 2550 kg (5621 lb)
* Loaded weight: 4000 kg (8818 lb)
* Useful load: 2950 kg (6503 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 5,500 kg (12125 lb)
* Powerplant: 2&#215; HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshafts, 900 kW (1200 hp) each

Performance

* Never exceed speed: 330 km/h (178 knots, 207 mph)
* Maximum speed: 275 km/h (148 knots, 171 mph)
* Cruise speed: 260 km/h (140 knots, 161 mph)
* Range: 700km (297 nm, 342 mi)
* Service ceiling: 6400 m (21,300 ft)
* Rate of climb: 12 m/s (2362 ft/min)
* Disc loading: kg/m&#178; (lb/ft&#178
* Power/mass: W/kg (hp/lb)

Armament

* Guns: M621 20 mm cannon on Nexter THL-20 turret
* Rockets: Unguided rockets
* Missiles: MBDA air-to-air missiles
Air-to-surface missiles
Anti-radiation missiles
Helina ATGM(8)
* Bombs: Iron bombs
cluster bomb units
grenade launcher

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## Mahakaya

ejaz007 said:


> LCA has been discussed in detail under the relevant thread. Kindly read those and you would understand.
> 
> LCA was sanctioned in 1983 not in 1990. Its 25 years old program and still in testing phase. Here is one link that is relevant:
> 
> Sanctioned in '83, LCA Tejas is yet to take off-India-The Times of India



Thats exactly what it was "SANCTIONED" - IT WAS SANCTIONED IN 1983 - THE WORK ON IT "SERIOUSLY BEGAN" IN 1990 - Its the same thing as "sanction" and "disbursement" of a loan - IT IS A 4.5 gen plane - leaping from a 2nd gen capability i.e. "HAL MARUT" to a 4.5 gen Capability i.e. "HAL Tejas" in 20 years is commendable - We did not make any planes in the interim no 3rd or close to 4th gens like the FC-1 or JF-17 - What we lost there - we more than made up in the "TEJAS" - WHICH IS WHY INDIA IS NOW FOCUSING ON THE NGFA OR MCA which will be a 5th gen plane in characteristics with stealth features.

Anyhow regarding the topic - I know the 1st flight of LCH will be soon as it has been delayed by a couple of weeks each time a date has been chosen over the past few weeks - SO I AM GUESSING THEY WANT TO BE SURE OF EACH AND EVERY MODULE before making the first flight!


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## Mahakaya

IceCold said:


> Since you missed the news, let me refresh your memory that Pakistan already did that expecting India to do the same as well which by the way never happened and we all know why, doesnt fit India's equation of war Hysteria and domination.



You miss the point - Pakistan increasing or decreasing aid will not affect India why? - COS WE HAVE A COMMUNIST REGIME SITTING ON TOP OF OUR HEADS and increasing expenditure on defense by manifold year after year owing to its expansionist policy - We are not worried about Pakistan as much as we are worried about China coming down on our heads! Its as simple - "PAKISTAN IS NOT THE CAUSE OF EXTRA MILITARY EXPENDITURE" IT IS CHINA!


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## hardcore

guys any1 got the real pics of LCH??


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## sudhir007

any new abt the flight coze last time i here the news that it will take first flight of march 2010.


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## Frankenstein

It kinda looks like AH-1 Cobra, nice


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## ashisbutt

HAL's Light Combat Helicopter [www.bharat-rakshak.com]


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## jha

as usual date of first flight getting pushed back...HAL is so irritating at times..


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## jagjitnatt

jha said:


> as usual date of first flight getting pushed back...HAL is so irritating at times..



but unusually they developed this very quickly.
I know its derived from dhruv, but better than Arjun and LCA.


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## jha

i was talking about first flight sir jee...it was supposed to fly in jan itself...march is already over(almost)...no info about that..(unless i missed this)..


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## jagjitnatt

jha said:


> i was talking about first flight sir jee...it was supposed to fly in jan itself...march is already over(almost)...no info about that..(unless i missed this)..



thand rakh yaar. Tension ni leni.

Give it a couple of months. We'll see it in action.


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## sivadreams

Frankenstein said:


> It kinda looks like AH-1 Cobra, nice



Yes just the nose resembles the Cobra.


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## aanamehra

BANGALORE: India has successfully flight tested a prototype of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), designed and developed by the state-run
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a top official said Tuesday.

"The maiden test flight of the LCH Monday evening was successfully. Though it was a short haul lasting about 20 minutes, the performance was good," HAL chairman and managing director Ashok Nayak told IANS.

The 5.5-tonne attack copter is a derivative version of HAL's flagship product Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), christened Dhruv.

"We will be conducting more test flights to evaluate its various parameters at different altitudes and conditions. We are looking at reducing the weight considerably for better manoeuvrability," Nayak said.

Made of lightweight composites, the LCH can operate at high altitudes up to 6,000 metres or 18,000 feet.

The prototype was flown with Shakti engine, developed by HAL in partnership with Turbomeca, the French manufacturer of aero engines for global aerospace majors.

"Plans to launch the flight trials of LCH have been going on over the last couple of months but got delayed due to reassessment of its various functions and flight control systems," a official of the company's copter division said.

HAL plans to hard-sell about 150-175 units of the LCH to the Indian defence services, mainly Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Army, which already operates the military version of Dhruv for various functions.

Senior officials of the company's helicopter division and IAF were present at the HAL airport to witness the test fight.

The LCH will be equipped with a helmet-mounted targeting system, electronic warfare systems and advanced weapons systems.

The LCH will incorporate a number of stealth features and crash-worthy landing gear for better survivability. It will have a narrow fuselage, with two crew stations.


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## aanamehra

C:\Documents and Settings\Om Sai Ram\Desktop


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## aanamehra




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## saurabh

aanamehra said:


> C:\Documents and Settings\Om Sai Ram\Desktop




Upload the images on some image hosting site, then post the links.


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## indiatech

LCH completes 6 flights; makes a fly-past over HAL airport for first time

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## Avatar

Self delete


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## DMLA

News Update:



> _The pilots opened the envelope so as to perform some
> manoeuvres during the official flight._
> India&#8217;s just-born Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), which had its maiden unofficial flight on March 29, has undertaken five more test-flights ahead of its first official outing in May. Its makers at the Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are currently putting the sturdy metal bird through initial flying lessons. Insiders confirmed to Aviation Week that so far six flights were undertaken, including an aborted one owing to bad weather.
> Built, based on the proven Dhruv platform, this slim and sleek chopper has a tandem configuration, embedded with stealth features and glass cockpit. &#8220;The performance has been excellent so far and the entire team is really happy. It&#8217;s a very steady platform,&#8221; HAL chairman Ashok Nayak told Aviation Week.



Waiting earnestly for the official flight!

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## sudhir007

Light Combat Helicopter Makes Six Flights | AVIATION WEEK

India&#8217;s new Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), which had its first unofficial flight on March 29, has made five more test flights ahead of its first official outing in May.

Its makers at the Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are currently putting the helicopter through initial flying lessons. Insiders confirmed to Aviation Week that so far six flights have been made, including an aborted one owing to bad weather.

Based on the proven Dhruv platform, the slim and sleek aircraft has a tandem configuration, embedded with stealth features and glass cockpit. &#8220;The performance has been excellent so far and the entire team is pleased. It&#8217;s a very steady platform,&#8221; HAL chairman Ashok Nayak told Aviation Week.

Aviation Week has learned that the pilots, for the first time, flew over nearby areas of HAL airport, including a fly-past over the airfield runway. Reporting flight details for the first time, program sources said that they shifted the LCH flights from the Alpha helipad (inside HAL&#8217;s fortified helicopter complex) to the nearby airport, after gaining confidence in the aircraft&#8217;s systems and performance.

The pilots accelerated close to 150 kph from one end of the runway to other and checked the performance of the aircraft. In later flights, they flew over the airfield and within a flight-test sector, did turns and came close to maximum speed, sources said.



The pilots also flew without the armament wing to test the performance in forward flight, briefing designers about the results. The designers were delighted on hearing that LCH had very little vibration and gave excellent aiming options.

The pilots opened up the envelope hoping to perform minimum maneuvers during the much-awaited inaugural flight. HAL is tight-lipped over the exact date of the official flight, but it is expected in May.

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## sudhir007



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## !!craft!!

GEN-INDIAN said:


> whats the use of lch in armed forces whn we have the jets???



excellent 
question dr frankenstien

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## dekho

GEN-INDIAN said:


> whats the use of lch in armed forces whn we have the jets???



The purpose for the attack helicopters is to provide close air support to the ground troops that the jets are unable to do. Plus attack helicopters are excellent tank hunters.


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## IndianArmy

GEN-INDIAN said:


> whats the use of lch in armed forces whn we have the jets???



You cannot use jets everywhere? when the army has crossed the border or When there is a heavy firing in war, Your Army needs Cover fire to move ahead, So Instead of Jets Attack helicopters Can not only Drop mini Ammos but also Fire and clear the way forward, Its a false perspective that Helicopters Are vulnerable to Gun fire or rockets.

Helicopters can be used to track and attack Maoists and In border areas if needed an Air assistance Attack Helicopters perform the role quiet efficiently......

Infact there are more roles for attack helicopters than the jets

And to hunt down tanks, Helicopters are handy, especially LCH armed with HELINA

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## KS

!!craft!! said:


> excellent
> question dr frankenstien



Wats here to rofl....? he has a question and he wants to know the answer.

please mate we r all here to learn..if u can answer him..well..but otherwise let others take care...Dont rofl.

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## Indiarox

!!craft!! said:


> excellent
> question dr frankenstien


come on dude he is a noob spare him the sarcasm


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## Indiarox

IndianArmy said:


> You cannot use jets everywhere? when the army has crossed the border or When there is a heavy firing in war, Your Army needs Cover fire to move ahead, So Instead of Jets Attack helicopters Can not only Drop mini Ammos but also Fire and clear the way forward, Its a false perspective that Helicopters Are vulnerable to Gun fire or rockets.
> 
> Helicopters can be used to track and attack Maoists and In border areas if needed an Air assistance Attack Helicopters perform the role quiet efficiently......
> 
> Infact there are more roles for attack helicopters than the jets
> 
> And to hunt down tanks, Helicopters are handy, especially LCH armed with HELINA


adding on what you said 
jets cant do the terrain hugging operations like helis can


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## IndianArmy

Indiarox said:


> adding on what you said
> jets cant do the terrain hugging operations like helis can



Terrain hugging Operations Like?


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## sancho

IndianArmy said:


> Terrain hugging Operations Like?



Maybe SEAD, in the first Gulf War low flying Apache helicopters was send to destroy Iraqi radar sites. This opened a passage for fighters and bombers to enter the Iraqi airspace without detection.

In the mountain regions in the north, LCH would be great to use the terrain to hide, or to avoid radar detection.


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## IndianArmy

sancho said:


> Maybe SEAD, in the first Gulf War low flying Apache helicopters was send to destroy Iraqi radar sites. This opened a passage for fighters and bombers to enter the Iraqi airspace without detection.
> 
> In the mountain regions in the north, LCH would be great to use the terrain to hide, or to avoid radar detection.



No,Dear..... Thats the Job Of Garud.... Helicopters are too risky to carry out such missions when In todays world SAMS are there.... And Powerful Radars


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## Dash

IndianArmy said:


> No,Dear..... Thats the Job Of Garud.... Helicopters are too risky to carry out such missions when In todays world SAMS are there.... And Powerful Radars


so why does the army wanted the LCH actually which can scale the hights of NE?, when Garuds are there to do this job.


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## IndianArmy

GEN-INDIAN said:


> I'VE READ THAT LOH(LIGHT OBSERVATION HELICOPTER)IS GOING TO BE DEVELOPED IN INDIA.ANYONE HAVING THE INFORMATION...


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## IndianArmy

Dash said:


> so why does the army wanted the LCH actually which can scale the hights of NE?, when Garuds are there to do this job.



Read my post #5 in this, You will come to know its Role


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## Dash

> Read my post #5 in this, You will come to know its Role



Sir
I read that, my question was in line with the answer you gave to Sancho on SEAD operations. 

If there has to be a SEAD operation in or Hunting operation in a battle field, will you send LCH or Garudas is the question...Specifically in the NE mountaneous places...


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## IndianArmy

Dash said:


> Sir
> I read that, my question was in line with the answer you gave to Sancho on SEAD operations.
> 
> If there has to be a SEAD operation in or Hunting operation in a battle field, will you send LCH or Garudas is the question...Specifically in the NE mountaneous places...



Garud forces are the best to neutralize the enemy air defense, Gone are the Days when Bombing run was possible, Garud would be air dropped and They would do the job, using Attack helicopters would only trigger there Air defense systems....


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## Indiarox

GEN-INDIAN said:


> whats the use of lch in armed forces whn we have the jets???


The helis and Jets have their respective uses

Jets(Military fixed wing aircraft)
They can be widely classified into
1)Air superiority /Interceptor/Fighter bomber
Well the Air superiority jets that are aircraft that are primarily responsible for taking out enemy aircraft , escorting fighter bombers,bombers in to enemy territory and back in one piece 
Note :Most air superiority fighters with slight modifications can act as Fighter bombers
Example:
Su30MKI




F-22






Interceptors :-These are the type of aircraft that are used to take out incoming aircraft (mainly bombers)using their speed and Air-to-air missiles 
Example
RAF English Electric Lightning.





Ground-attack aircraft
Ground-attack aircraft are military aircraft designed to attack targets on the ground and are often deployed as close air support for, and in proximity to, their own ground forces. The proximity to friendly forces require precision strikes from these aircraft that are not possible with typical bomber aircraft. 
Example
A-10 Thunderbolt II





Bomber
As the name implies they are used to drop bombs they can also carry cruise missiles,torpedoes
Tupolev Tu-160



[/URL][/IMG]



Now coming to helis

Military helicopter

A military helicopter is a helicopter that is either specifically built or converted for use by military forces. A military helicopter's mission is a function of its design or conversion. The most common use of military helicopters is transport of troops, but transport helicopters can be modified or converted to perform other missions such as combat search and rescue (CSAR), medical evacuation (MEDEVAC), airborne command post, or even armed with weapons for attacking ground targets. Specialized military helicopters are intended to conduct specific missions. Examples of specialized military helicopters are attack helicopters, observation helicopters and anti-submarine warfare helicopters.
1)Attack helicopters
Attack helicopters are armed helicopters used in the anti tank and close air support roles.
They carry rocket pods,machine guns,light misiles
Mi-24P Hind-F 



[/URL][/IMG]


you see Both Jets and helis can be used for offensive purpose but they have different roles to play and different fields of effectiveness
generally speaking Helis are used for a smaller area and jets for a larger area
Helis can creep in to areas where jets cant go they can ambush enemies from behind dunes or hidden behind trees
like in this pic



[/URL][/IMG]
so you see both jets and helicopters are needed

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## Indiarox

Remain part about the helis il post it in a bit


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## Indiarox

IndianArmy said:


> Terrain hugging Operations Like?


Flying low over forests , maneuvering behind dunes to attack enemy troops


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## IndianArmy

Indiarox said:


> Flying low over forests , maneuvering behind dunes to attack enemy troops



Yes, Thats true.... Slight change When it comes to dunes, Attack Helicopters dont stick to earth, Its a risk


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## Indiarox

IndianArmy said:


> Yes, Thats true.... Slight change When it comes to dunes, Attack Helicopters dont stick to earth, Its a risk


ok not dunes medium sized rock formation?????


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## KEETARP

IndianArmy said:


> Garud forces are the best to neutralize the enemy air defense, Gone are the Days when Bombing run was possible, Garud would be air dropped and They would do the job, using Attack helicopters would only trigger there Air defense systems....



With Due Respect Sir,
Plz try to refrain from providing such details of War-Planning and Operational Doctrine of Services . 
Regards


----------



## Kinetic

LT.PRATEEK said:


> With Due Respect Sir,
> Plz try to refrain from providing such details of War-Planning and Operational Doctrine of Services .
> Regards



Hey did whatever he said is completely in public domain. We have also seen videos of that in Vayu Shakti. Apart from those airbase security is also one of the main task of Garud. 

BTW did you notice the weapons are already loaded on LCH. 

*What do you think RM will give a name to the LCH on 23rd? *


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## KEETARP

^^^^^^^^^
o , Yes just noticed now . Thanks for pointing out.

Lets leave that Operational doctrine thing , if Sir is gonna post with confidence . That's one less option for Enemy to work on.


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## jha

GEN-INDIAN said:


> whats the use of lch in armed forces whn we have the jets???



although this deserves the title of question of the year..i guess i dont have enough acumen for answering this..


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## sancho

IndianArmy said:


> No,Dear..... Thats the Job Of Garud.... Helicopters are too risky to carry out such missions when In todays world SAMS are there.... And Powerful Radars


Doubtful, because there are way too many radar and SAM sites to send ground forces to each of them. 
Either you use fighters that will strike them from distance with missiles, or PGMs, or you do it below the radar with combat helicopters. As I said, by following the terrain and flying low they can avoid radar detection, or air defense, but of course that will be possible only for targets close to the border, because of the limited range of these helicopters. 
However, that could be one role LCH could be used for, although the main roles will remain anti tank and close air support of course.


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## Tejas-MkII

some pics of LCH with dhruv : courtesy BR & sumit agarwal:

Picasa Web Albums - Sumit


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## Indiarox

jha said:


> although this deserves the title of question of the year..i guess i dont have enough acumen for answering this..


I think I already answered half of it


----------



## Choppers

*LCH in Action*


















*Courtesy:Bharat And BR*

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## hal-fgfa

since photos are not clear is LCH flying with weapons ??????


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## Choppers

hal-fgfa said:


> since photos are not clear is LCH flying with weapons ??????



These are not official pics.They were captured by a BRFite who prolly works/stays nearby.So can't make out if LCH is flying with weapons or not.

I guess official video and pics will be released shortly.


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## IndianArmy

LT.PRATEEK said:


> With Due Respect Sir,
> Plz try to refrain from providing such details of War-Planning and Operational Doctrine of Services .
> Regards



I just said What happend In vayu shkati, there are 1000 other ways to Finish this job sweet heart


----------



## KEETARP

*HAL now plans a low-key LCH official flight*
*Antony mourns Mangalore crash; will skip LCH event along with Pallam Raju,*​Defense Minister AK Antony has expressed profound shock and grief at the loss of over 150 people in the air crash at Mangalore airport on May 22. In a condolence message, Antony said: I am deeply grieved and shocked to learn of loss hundreds of precious lives in the Air India plane crash today. I express my heartfelt condolences to the members of the bereaved families. I also wish a speedy recovery to those injured in the crash. 
MoD sources confirmed that Antony and his deputy Pallam Raju won't be attending the Bangalore LCH event owing to magnitude of the Mangalore tragedy. *HAL officials said that event will go on as planned but on a low-key*. "We are shocked and it is very unfortunate something of this magnitude happened. The LCH event will now be a low-key affair," an executive director with HAL, said.
















Courtsey- 
Anantha Krishnan M
Bangalore,
Senior Aerospace & Defence Correspondent (India) for US-based Aviation Week's India Magazine

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## Kinetic

^^^ Really unfortunate. This year we are watching so many rise and falls. Two of the future beast of Indian Air force made their first flight with in first three months. e have seen successful flight of Agni-II and Agni-III. We have also seen failures like GSLV mk-II and failure of the target missile during AAD missile defence test. Now this incident. 

BTW waiting for LCH videos.


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## Haanzo

this made my day ..great way to start a jingos morning ...a ful page ad in all the leading news pappers today

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## IndianArmy

HAL on the Run...... No wonder its making the nation proud


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## Tejas-MkII

Haanzo said:


> this made my day ..great way to start a jingos morning ...a ful page ad in all the leading news pappers today



Two things from the photograph:

One is front view of LCH , lean and mean 

Second is ALH-MkIII, heard about it during AI09, i think most advance version of ALH having shakti engine(not sure).


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


>



good pic ,

Hope to seem hudreds of these flying over India

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## vaibhav

Whether LCH will be able to defying gravity as MI24 does ??


> YouTube - MI24 hind attack helicopter gravity defying flight
> check out this video


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## Kinetic

vaibhav said:


> Whether LCH will be able to defying gravity as MI24 does ??



Its fake,

"Its not CG at all, its simple, the camera filming the shot has had its frame rate set to the same speed the rotor blades are spinning thus giving the illusion that the blades are&#65279; not spinning, its like when car wheels look like they are spinning backwards due to the human eye only being able to focus on the wheel once it has already rotated around one and one quarter further so you are continuously focussing on the previous bit of wheel, same physics apply with the camera and blades! "

Come to the topic.

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## marcos98

todays great day for HAL.......and for the country not withstanding the tragic incident that happened......

wish they could unveil what name of this beast would be....


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## Just Yash

There is one question always come to my mind. that are we going to use any short of radar on the top of LCH or not????


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## Kinetic

Just Yash said:


> There is one question always come to my mind. that are we going to use any short of radar on the top of LCH or not????



No. 

As of now I can't see any ATGM either, hope the Helina gets ready fast before LCH become ready for induction or we should buy a foreign missile as immediate solution.


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## KS

In the pics,ther are four hardpoints - two for rockets and two for missiles.

Each of the missile hardpoint has 2 missile like attachments.

Does that mean the LCH can carry only 4 ATGMs..?

Is it a bit low..?


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## Kinetic

Karthic Sri said:


> In the pics,ther are four hardpoints - two for rockets and two for missiles.
> 
> Each of the missile hardpoint has 2 missile like attachments.
> 
> Does that mean the LCH can carry only 4 ATGMs..?
> 
> Is it a bit low..?



Just like LCH most of the attack choppers has four hardpoints. Each hardpoint usually carries two or more missiles. There is no particular hardpoint for rocket or missiles. You can mount ATGM where you mounted rockets. The weapon load configuration will depend on mission. Usually in a hardpoint it is 2 AAM or 4 ATGM or number of unguided rockets. 

So if required LCH can carry 16 ATGM.


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## IndianArmy

Is the ceremony over? when Is it getting inaugarated?


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## KS

Kinetic said:


> Just like LCH most of the attack choppers has four hardpoints. Each hardpoint usually carries two or more missiles. There is no particular hardpoint for rocket or missiles. You can mount ATGM where you mounted rockets. The weapon load configuration will depend on mission.



Im aware of this mate.....i was mentioning abt the load configuration seen in the picture.There was only 2 missiles in each hardpoint..




Kinetic said:


> Usually in a hardpoint it is 2 AAM or 4 ATGM or number of unguided rockets.
> 
> So i*f required LCH can carry 16 ATGM.*



This was wat I was concerned.Thnx for clarifying.


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## IndianArmy




----------



## tinguzzz




----------



## Choppers



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## marcos98



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## marcos98

yahooooooooooohohohhhhhhh........

*courtesy ; livefist*

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## Mirza Jatt

nice pictures...


----------



## SQ8

hmmmm.. Prototypee.


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## honour

santro said:


> hmmmm.. Prototypee.



yep TD_1.....TD-2 is currently in production with a less weight of 84 kg....no of missiles will be increased by 4...i.e 8 missiles will be there....4 on each side....currently it carries two on each side only.....


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## IndianArmy

India's defense market is flourishing at the moment, good going HAL


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## Prometheus

beast flies again

take cover


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## TATA

*Light Combat Helicopter dedicated to nation*

The first indigenously built Light Combat Helicopter, designed and developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) performed its inaugural flight in Bangalore on Sunday. The Defence Minister A. K. Antony, his deputy, Pallam Raju, and the Chief of Air Staff, P.V. Naik, who were scheduled to participate in the inaugural, did not take part in the function because of the disaster in Mangalore on Saturday.

The project to develop the LCH, which builds on many features of the HAL-designed Advanced Light Helicopter (Dhruv), was approved in 2006. A full-scale mock-u of the craft was displayed at the aero India show in 2007.

R.K. Singh, Secretary, Defence (Production) said LCH would receive Initial Operational Certification by December and Final Operational Certification soon.

Air Marshal P.K. Barbora, Vice-Chief of the Air Staff, congratulated the HAL team for having developing the LCH for the Indian Air Force, which was* desperate to have such a machine in its inventory. He complimented the HAL team that designed the rotary wing design of the LCH, which gives the craft its high degree of maneuverability. * 

*Delivering a craft like this is no mean achievement when seen in the international context,* Air Marshal Barbora said. He suggested that the aircraft could be exported to friendly countries.

The Chairman of HAL Ashok Naik said the LCH project has been undertaken with an outlay of Rs. 376 crores, of which, 10 per cent has been borne by the public sector company. The company has an order book worth Rs. 80,000 crores, he said. 

The Hindu : States / Karnataka : Light Combat Helicopter dedicated to nation

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## jha

Glass is used in plenty ...mucj more than some other CHs in development..


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## TATA

*LCH marks a new era in Indian combat avionics*

Bengaluru, May 23 (ANI): The successful test flight of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) on Sunday will would go down in the history of Indian combat avionics as a new era in indigenous development of dedicated fighter helicopters in the country.

The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has been developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The inaugural test flight of the LCH, which is yet to be christened, has made India enter the elite club of countries in the world which have the capability of designing, developing and manufacturing state of the art advanced combat helicopters.

The successful test flight was conducted at the HALs airport here, which was witnessed by a number of distinguished guests, and a huge number of people.

Defence Minister A K Antony, his deputy Pallam Raju and Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik were to attend the function, but they cancelled their visit after Saturdays air disaster at Mangalore.

Secretary Defence Production R K Singh, Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshall P K Barbora, Chairman HAL Ashok Nayak besides many other dignitaries were present on the historic public flight of the LCH.

Describing the LCH as the Tiger Bird, Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshall P K Barbora said:  Its a red letter day not only for the HAL but the whole nation. In avionics, the circus must go on, he said while referring about Saturdays tragic incident in Mangalore.

It is an unveiling of an asset for which the Indian Air Force was desperately looking for. The display was superb. I congratulate the whole HAL team, especially the rotary wing design team, Air Marshall Barbora said.

*He said the LCH has some unmatched combat and stealth features. This is no mean achievement. There are very few countries that have the capability to build this (LCH) kind of aircraft. I am quite hopeful that the LCH would be ready for induction in the Indian Air Force in coming two to three years, Air Marshall Barbora added.
*
The LCH, which weighs 5.8 tonnes, has strike the enemy target moving at a maximum speed of 268 kilometers per hour.

*The Tiger Bird has been fitted with a 20 mm Turret gun right in the nose, which not only gives it a stunning fighter look but also enhances the capability to destroy target with utmost precision.*

Due to its narrow fuselage with flat panels and tandem seating arrangement, in which the pilot and the co-pilot sit behind one another, the LCH is one of most compact fighter helicopter at present.
*
The glass cockpit, night operation capabilities, along with highly sophisticated mission systems such as the Target Acquistion and Designing System (TADS), Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS) and the Infrared (IR) Supressor are only a few out of numerous advance systems fitted in the LCH.*

*Apart from basic combat roles, the LCH qualifies for several other tasks as well such as the offensive employment in Urban Warfare, Counter Surface Operations (CSFO) and Counter Insurgency operations. (ANI)*

LCH marks a new era in Indian combat avionics

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## flaming arrow

marcos98 said:


> yahooooooooooohohohhhhhhh........
> 
> *courtesy ; livefist*



Simply AWESOME...very soon it will raining havoc on enemy tanks...
HAL has made us all proud today..

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## KEETARP

> He said the LCH has some unmatched combat and stealth features



It just disappoints when a Senior ranked officer claims these type of above lines .
If any journo or Fanboy claims that, its acceptable , but self chest-thumping by Vice chief is irresponsible on his part.
Unmatched Combat wrt to what 
Compare it to Ka52 /Mil28/Commanche/AW-129 /Eurocopter-Tiger . 
Are they unmatched wrt to LCH .
Even if its wt class is taken AW-129 is inferior to LCH , i dont accept that .

LCH is designed wrt to IAF and IA requirements at a affordable cost . That's it 
no need to call it Unmatchable machine

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## kashith

good going we need to have light helis in large numbers to take down enemy armour....


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## IndianArmy

Now that I would say, India is Here.... This could Give an Early boost to our Armed forces.... Our second attack helicopter is here finally.... Dhruv Wsi and LCH would certainly make an Impact


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## kashith

feeling proud of HAL..not like some other people who feel pride when another country achieves something and start shouting that by default it will be ours...


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## KEETARP

^^^^ Indian army sir 
Don't get to hear of Armed Dhruv these days . What will be its role after LCH and who will take them IAF or IA



> eeling proud of HAL..not like some other people who feel pride when another country achieves something and start shouting that by default it will be ours...



Buddy , no need to flame . Learn to keep discussion technical . Indulging in personal war and blame will only get you in trouble , you dont learn anything about weapon system.


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## notsuperstitious

IndianArmy said:


> Now that I would say, India is Here.... This could Give an Early boost to our Armed forces.... Our second attack helicopter is here finally.... Dhruv Wsi and LCH would certainly make an Impact



Sir,what is the role of Dhruv WSI? Its not an attack heli, so its weaponised to operate in hostile environment?

And how many of these have been ordered?


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## flaming arrow

*SOME MORE PICS*



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## gogbot

Some look at HAL's avionics 

Weaponized Dhurv






LCH front cockpit




LCH from cockpit for the prototype





LCA Tejas cockpit

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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

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## IndianArmy

fateh71 said:


> Sir,what is the role of Dhruv WSI? Its not an attack heli, so its weaponised to operate in hostile environment?
> 
> And how many of these have been ordered?



I myself do not know how many have been ordered, but Dhruv WSI makes it a Mini lift + an Attack helicopter.... It sure can be deployed in hostile areas, Close air support,Army Back Up etc etc

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## IndianArmy

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^ Indian army sir
> Don't get to hear of Armed Dhruv these days . What will be its role after LCH and who will take them IAF or IA



Dhruv WSI is mainly for the Army, as I already mentioned Its a multi role,multi Mission Helicopter....


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## KEETARP

Stunning cockpits . Thanks Flaming Arrow
Esp Dhruv . Reminds me Dhruv will be having tandem seat . While LCH one back of the other .

Tejas has great cockpit , look at the fully digital cockpit theory . Miles ahead of Su-30MKI which has so many Analogue dials.

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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^ Indian army sir
> Don't get to hear of Armed Dhruv these days . What will be its role after LCH and who will take them IAF or IA
> 
> 
> 
> Buddy , no need to flame . Learn to keep discussion technical . Indulging in personal war and blame will only get you in trouble , you dont learn anything about weapon system.



Weaponised Dhurv can still be used to transport troops , and then provide them with close air support.

















Using them against Insurgents for example , could involve first softening up the ground and then dropping the troops to mop up and continue to provide close support.

There are other international example of this as well
Take the blackhawk for example



> MH-60L Direct Action Penetrator (DAP): US Army variant. Special operations modification, operated by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. It is capable of being armed with Hellfire missiles, M230 Chain Gun 30 mm automatic cannon, Hydra 70 2.75-inch (70 mm) rockets, as well as M134D gatling guns operated as door guns or fixed forward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The UH-60 comes in many variants, and many different modifications. The U.S. Army variants can be fitted with the stub wings to carry additional fuel tanks or weapons. Variants may have different capabilities and their respective equipment in order to fulfill different roles.*

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## hal-fgfa

great achivement 


lets hope LCA mk2 come soon


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## KS

Amazing coc kpits.....

Now this is wat i mean by Glass Cockpits......


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## KEETARP

Karthic , 
arent you bored of "Glass cabins" of TCS office.

Sorry for bad joke - But yes those digital displays are stunning . AMLCD are the way to go . Anyone having info on who is building those LCDs


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## IndianArmy

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Karthic ,
> arent you bored of "Glass cabins" of TCS office.
> 
> Sorry for bad joke - But yes those digital displays are stunning . AMLCD are the way to go . Anyone having info on who is building those LCDs



If Iam right , Then The LCD's are made by SAMTEL , They were the ones who Made Indian HMD's ....


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## flaming arrow

[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## Dark Angel




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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Stunning cockpits . Thanks Flaming Arrow
> Esp Dhruv . Reminds me Dhruv will be having tandem seat . While LCH one back of the other .



I posted those cockpit picture dude. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Tejas has great cockpit , look at the fully digital cockpit theory . Miles ahead of Su-30MKI which has so many Analogue dials.



The MKI Cockpit is actually very good when it was made
Considering that this was back in the late 90's.





All of the analogue dials are only back ups.
HAL was also responsible for part of the Upgrade to the MKI standard

take a look a the new cockpits of the 
Su-35





Mig-35





the MKI mid-life upgrade coming up , may borrow features from this.
Same goes for the Mig-29's also being upgraded.

A little comparison to 
the SU-30MKK(china)





J-11





J-10





Jf-17(no fancy French stuff)


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## flaming arrow

are we planning to integrate LCH with LAHAT or HELINA ????by the waysome guru to shed light on the speed with which the development of helina is going on..


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## KEETARP

Gogbot , thanks for those pictures .

Lets wait till MKI gets MLU till then best cockpit of IAF will remain of LCA . 
And , Yes that Su35 is looking similar to F35 , even exceeding all MRCA jet's cockpits .


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## aimarraul

gogbot said:


> Jf-17(no fancy French stuff)



JF-17










at first i thought it was hard to google these photos,but .........


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## gogbot

^^^^^

very well them corrected.

I did not know they changed the cockpit.


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## KEETARP

Now that JF17 cockpit looks superbly designed . Quite similar to layout of Mig35 .
Aimmarul can you PM me the pic of HUD of Jf17 with this new cockpit design.


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## Kinetic

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Now that JF17 cockpit looks superbly designed . Quite similar to layout of Mig35 .
> Aimmarul can you PM me the pic of HUD of Jf17 with this new cockpit design.



That is actually the simulator of Mig-29K for Indian Navy. Mig-29K and Mig-35 similar cockpit. 

Excellent work by HAL, the chopper looks very stealthy and advanced. I wish to see it in service soon. We can export it to firendly countries as well.


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## KEETARP

Kinetc , sure about that . 
Pic has some chinese lang written over it , and middle LCD is slightly below the level what Mig35 has.


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## Kinetic

^^
mate I was talking about this pic labeled as MiG-35.... yes it is for mig-35 but the pic actually of Mig-29K simulator. Mig-35 and Mig-29 has almost same cockpit config. 

http://i44.tinypic.com/2yv5v2g.jpg


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## zeus

it will be more stealthy when it get IR suppressor


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> It just disappoints when a Senior ranked officer claims these type of above lines .
> If any journo or Fanboy claims that, its acceptable , but self chest-thumping by Vice chief is irresponsible on his part.
> Unmatched Combat wrt to what
> Compare it to Ka52 /Mil28/Commanche/AW-129 /Eurocopter-Tiger .
> Are they unmatched wrt to LCH .
> Even if its wt class is taken AW-129 is inferior to LCH , i dont accept that .
> 
> LCH is designed wrt to IAF and IA requirements at a affordable cost . That's it
> no need to call it Unmatchable machine



Can't agree more, all these talk about stealth and stealth features are totally misleading. LCH might have some design features that will reduce it's RCS compared to older helicopters, but that still are only minor reductions. As far it has no internal weapon bay and a retractable gun like the Comanche it won't be stealthy. Just as you said it is maid for our requirements which mainly are cost-effectivness and able to operate in high altitudes, instead of beeing a stealth helicopter.


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## Kinetic

LT.PRATEEK said:


> It just disappoints when a Senior ranked officer claims these type of above lines .
> If any journo or Fanboy claims that, its acceptable , but self chest-thumping by Vice chief is irresponsible on his part.
> Unmatched Combat wrt to what
> Compare it to Ka52 /Mil28/Commanche/AW-129 /Eurocopter-Tiger .
> Are they unmatched wrt to LCH .
> Even if its wt class is taken AW-129 is inferior to LCH , i dont accept that .
> 
> LCH is designed wrt to IAF and IA requirements at a affordable cost . That's it
> no need to call it Unmatchable machine



Without chest-thumping nothing happens. What made Brahmos world famous? Chest-thumping!!! 



> Unmatched Combat wrt to what
> Compare it to Ka52 /Mil28/Commanche/AW-129 /Eurocopter-Tiger .
> Are they unmatched wrt to LCH .



Comanche is a canceled programme. So that remains LCH as the only dedicated stealth attack chopper. 

Ka-52 and Mi-28 isn't stealthy.

A129 inferior as you mentioned. 

EC Tiger: Good. But not as capable as LCH. LCH can go to much higher altitude than Tiger.

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## Kinetic

sancho said:


> Can't agree more, all these talk about stealth and stealth features are totally misleading. LCH might have some design features that will reduce it's RCS compared to older helicopters, but that still are only minor reductions. As far it has no internal weapon bay and a retractable gun like the Comanche it won't be stealthy. Just as you said it is maid for our requirements which mainly are cost-effectivness and able to operate in high altitudes, instead of beeing a stealth helicopter.



Comanche is a *stealth* attack helicopter while LCH is *stealthy*. That is the difference. When Comanche is canceled and as you said "the design feature of LCH will reduce its RCS compared to older choppers', doesn't LCH's stealthiness make it 'unmatchable'? Did the vice air chief said anything wrong calling LCH unmatchable in terms of combat and stealth capabilities? Come to the fact, which attck chopper has better combat capabilities than LCH in its class (assuming Longbow as heavy attack heli)?


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## KEETARP

^^^^^^^^^^ Kinetic 
Read my post agian 


> Unmatched Combat wrt to what


this is what , i wrote . You think LCH has better weapons than APACHE , KA52 , Mil28 or Aw129.
And my second statement


> Even if its wt class is taken Is AW-129 is inferior to LCH



and Vice chief never mentioned weight , so assume he was referring wrt to all Attach Helos not only light wt class.


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## sraja

Guys, Check the YT video in the title of this post.


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## Kinetic

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^ Kinetic
> Read my post agian
> 
> this is what , i wrote . You think LCH has better weapons than APACHE , KA52 , Mil28 or Aw129.
> And my second statement



mate you didn't mentioned Apahe/longbow. BTW Apache is a heavy combat helicopter but not stealthy as well. Ka-50/52, Mi-28 and A129's overall combat effectiveness is not as capable as LCH. I will talk about it in next post.


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## IndianArmy

Video Of LCH first official flight....

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## flaming arrow



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## KEETARP

> Ka-50/52, Mi-28 and A129's overall combat effectiveness is not as capable as LCH.



How are you gonna prove it ???


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## gubbi

IndianArmy said:


> Video Of LCH first official flight....
> 
> YouTube - India launches its first helicopter gunship



What a crappy reporter! When the test pilot is describing the electro-optical pod, the reporter just juts in and asks about the weapons the helo can fire. What a douche!

These journos need specialization after their graduation from journalism school. Without knowing the background or basics, reporting on an issue with half or nil knowledge is very dangerous!

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## sancho

Kinetic said:


> Comanche is a *stealth* attack helicopter while LCH is *stealthy*. That is the difference. When Comanche is canceled and as you said "the design feature of LCH will reduce its RCS compared to older choppers', doesn't LCH's stealthiness make it 'unmatchable'? Did the vice air chief said anything wrong calling LCH unmatchable in terms of combat and stealth capabilities? Come to the fact, which attck chopper has better combat capabilities than LCH in its class (assuming Longbow as heavy attack heli)?



Compared to what? Compared to our older Mi 35, yes! Compared to EC Tiger? NO, because it also feat some RCS reductions, but at the end with all the esternal weapons, fixed gears and of course the rotors, which limit the stealthyness of every helicopter, none of these will even be close to Comanche.
All new combat helicopters are designed with reduced RCS, but realistically, what should make LCH different and stealthy? Not to forget that one of the key requirements is cost-effectiveness and that is contrary to stealth.


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## sancho

Kinetic said:


> mate you didn't mentioned Apahe/longbow. BTW Apache is a heavy combat helicopter but not stealthy as well. Ka-50/52, Mi-28 and A129's overall combat effectiveness is not as capable as LCH. I will talk about it in next post.



That is wrong, simply by the fact that some of these helicopters even have radars, which the LCH does't have so far. It is way too early to jump into conclusions, only because the media is hyping at the moment. 
We should be proud of HALs achievement, because it is the first real development they made alone and because LCH will be useful for what it was designed to, but please don't start to dream and make it THE combat helicopter ever like our turkish friend recently did with all turkish developments.

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## SpArK

sraja said:


> Guys, Check the YT video in the title of this post.



Thanks for the video.


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## Prometheus

IndianArmy said:


> Video Of LCH first official flight....
> 
> YouTube - India launches its first helicopter gunship



thanks for sharing the video sir


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## jha

YouTube - India launches its first helicopter gunship!


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## jha

*Indigenously Built LCH Takes to the Skies*

The maiden flight of the indigenously manufactured Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) heralded India&#8217;s entry into the select group of countries capable of developing their own Combat Helicopters. The LCH manufactured by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited took to the skies in the presence of the Defence Secretary RK Singh, Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal PK Barbora, Chairman HAL, Ashok Nayak and senior officials of Defence ministry and the forces at the HAL airport in the city today. Chief Test pilot Unni Pillai and Hari Nair put up a spectacular flying display of the LCH on its maiden flight.

The LCH is a dedicated attack helicopter featuring a narrow fuselage and a tandem seating for the pilot and co-pilot. The machine is designed for low detection (reduced visual, aural, radar and infra red signatures) and has crashworthy landing gear for better survivability. The hingeless rotors and the powerful Shakti engines enable the easy manoeuvring of LCH even with weapons.

The other interesting feature of the LCH is the chin-mounted canon along with the helmet mounted sighting system, which gives the pilot the capability to look and fire at targets around the aircraft. An advanced sensor suite consisting of CCD Camera, Forward looking infrared imaging technology and Laser range finder, facilitates target acquisition in all weather conditions.

The Helicopter would be fitted with a Data Link for network-centric operations facilitating the transfer of mission data to the other airborne platforms and ground stations operating in the network, thus facilitating the force multiplication.

With these features the LCH is expected to play a major impact on Air Defence role against slow moving aerial targets, destruction of enemy air defence operations, escort to special heliborne operations, support of combat search and rescue operations, anti-tank role and scout duties.

PIB Press Release


----------



## jha

*Snapshots from Super Sunday Show -- LCH Maiden Flight*

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## jha

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------


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## Loki23

Congratulations to HAL on this achievement. Will the LCH be able to carry the anti-tank NAG missile?


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## SpArK

Congratulations to HAL. you guys did a fantastic job.


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## gajju

..................


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## Kinetic

Prateek, I think we can compare with other helicopters in its class based on this pres release from HAL. I will post in details tomorrow. 


*Dedication of LCH to the Nation*

http://hal-india.com/LCH-may10.asp

Indian aviation fraternity in general and HAL in particular is eager to witness another milestone event, when Hon&#8217;ble Defence Minister Shri A.K Antony will dedicate the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) to the nation on coming Sunday at HAL Airport. Indigenously developed and built by HAL in a record time, a derivative of Advanced Light Helicopter (Dhruv) is an attack helicopter first of its kind in India.

*History*

It became imminent for the MOD and Indian Air Force that the technologies acquired and developed on the Dhruv platform could be translated into developing a dedicated Light combat helicopter appended with newer technologies like low visibility features, Nuclear Biological and Chemical warfare protection, integration of the latest weapon systems, and electronic warfare suite. The HAL Fraternity expresses its gratitude to the nation, MOD and the Indian Air force for giving it yet another great opportunity in realizing this dream.

*Technicality*

The LCH inherits many technical features of the Dhruv which includes the rotor system Transmission, power plant, Hydraulics, IADS, weapons system and Avionics. The features that are unique to LCH are Sleek & narrow fuselage, tri-cycle crashworthy landing gear, tandem cockpits, crashworthy & self sealing fuel tanks, aero foil shaped stub wings for weapons, armour protection, NBC protection and, low visibility features Which make the LCH lethal, agile and survivable.

*Development philosophy*

LCH prototype development was based on the concept of design, ground testing and fabrication concurrently. This resulted in building the 1st machine within 40 months.

The design & manufacturing was carried-out using the state-of-art C.A.D/C.A.M facilities which obviated the requirement of an interface check rig. The ground testing included wind-tunnel testing, landing gear drop tests, and shake test.

A mock up was also built for evaluation by the Indian Air Force.

*Development Team*

The development team included members of HAL, Indian Air Force, the certification authorities CEMILAC ,DGAQA and the various suppliers of the onboard systems.

*Capability and Performance*

LCH will be fitted with a 20 mm Turret gun and can carry Rockets, Air-to Air / Air-to-Ground missiles on the weapon stations.

The helicopter would have day/night targeting systems for the crew including the Helmet pointed sight and Electro-optical pod consisting of CCD camera/FLIR/Laser range finder/laser designator. The LRF & LD facilitate measurement of range to the target & guidance to the Laser guided Missiles respectively. A Digital Video Recorder would enable recording of the vital mission for debriefing purposes. The turret gun skewing is controlled by the helmet mounted sight of the gunner.

The LCH is fitted with Self Protection Suite consisting of Radar/Laser Missile warning systems and Countermeasures dispensing system. It is also planned to integrate IR/Laser missile jammer on the helicopter.

The helicopter would be fitted with a Data Link for Network-centric operations facilitating transfer of the mission data to the other airborne platforms and ground stations operating in the Network, thus facilitating force multiplication.

The machine is designed for low detection (visual, aural, radar & infra-red) and includes armour protection of critical areas. A 30 minute dry running capability of the gear box is a built in feature to survive after a ballistic hit to the transmission system. Crashworthiness features are built into the wheel landing gear & structure.

Dual redundant systems also enhance the effectiveness of the helicopter in the battlefield environment.

The performance features of the LCH i.e. rate of climb, cruise speed, service ceiling are on par, if not better than other helicopter in its class like A129/Tiger and with bigger dedicated combat helicopters like Apache, Kamov 30 or Mi-35. LCH has all the makings of a winner in its class of helicopters.


*Cost data ( Development cost, unit cost, maintenance cost & operating cost)*

The development cost of LCH is very low compared to that of other helicopters in its class, ensuring lower unit costs compared to other attack helicopters. LCH design is optimized to ensure ease of maintenance with improved reliability of all the onboard systems to keep the operating costs low.

*Conclusion*

Self-reliance in such strategic machines forms an unequivocal requirement for India&#8217;s defence and products like the Dhruv & the LCH are missions in this direction. May the Light Combat Helicopter serve the nation for decades to come.

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## honour

Indian govt officials as well as media have a tendency to create much hype.....yaar its only the first prototype...LCA flew in 2001 first time still we are waiting for its induction....

also LCH is only light weight by name...it is still a lot heavier than its class.....yes no doubt it is a big achievment but its only the first flight....we have still atleast three years before it will be finally prepared into a lethal but actual device....

yes HAL is taking up steps to reduce its weight....even 2nd prototype is less in weight....but still after 4 prototypes it will be 200kg's heavier....thats why its weighing class was changed in defexpo 2010 after some of the foreign companies objected to it......

also its capacity is beyond any comparison to other choppers...only 4 ATGM's promised by HAL in TD-3/4
I am here for full appreciation of HAl..but seriously.i feel instead of celebrating first flight now induction ceremony would have been better......


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## honour

lets check the attack chopper scenario in south asia.......





Chinese WZ-10

pakistan uses cobra.........






India's mi-35/24


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## brahmastra



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## DMLA

Pics from Sunday - Courtesy tarmak007


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## DMLA

More....







Amazing belly shot 






Don't you just love that tiger!






Made to kill 






DIRCM will be israeli MUSIC in all likelihood......

link: http://www.el-op.com/category/MUSIC


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## 592257001

I think this beast looks pretty good, beside its "vista windows"
Plus, why is its max payload so little. It seems to me that it can only carry 4 ATGM, and 2 rocket pods


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## ramu

592257001 said:


> I think this beast looks pretty good, beside its "vista windows"
> Plus, why is its max payload so little. It seems to me that it can only carry 4 ATGM, and 2 rocket pods



The current body weight should be reduced before it can take on more weapons. long way to go.


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## CONNAN

THIS ISZ FOR LCH FANS CREATED A DECENT PICTURE THREAD 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/58942-official-innaguration-pictures-lch-including-pit-weapons-systems.html


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## IndianArmy

Another beautiful video Of LCH

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## under cover

My company provided Critical toolings for ALH.


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## Jade

Congratulations to HAL. We are proud of you.


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## brahmastra

Air marshal P. K. Barbora is looking very happy at 0:25 in last video.
"I'm a proud Indian."

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## IndianArmy

brahmastra said:


> Air marshal P. K. Barbora is looking very happy at 0:25 in last video.
> "I'm a proud Indian."



He indeed Is..... If India can produce a Helicopter Of such caliber, its Obvious to have an Uncontrollable joy and Happiness..... ...

Iam sure its Got its Unique place in the armed forces.... Its already ordered By the Army and Airforce, Its got a deadly combination of Stability and maneuverability , Which Is hard to get..... According to Mr.Unnikrishnan* "Its the most maneuverable and Steady helicopter he has ever handled"*


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## tinguzzz

India Rockzzz......


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## IndianArmy

tinguzzz said:


> India Rockzzz......



Keep the spirit alive for the Next projects of HAL

UAV
MCA
LCA MK2
Medium Lift helicopter
Light Utility helicopter 

And Many more.....


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## brahmastra

IndianArmy said:


> Keep the spirit alive for the Next projects of HAL
> 
> UAV
> MCA
> LCA MK2
> Medium Lift helicopter
> Light Utility helicopter
> 
> And Many more.....



After getting experience of Dhruv,LCH, I don't see any fall back in bottom two projects, I'm eagerly looking at the first project in your list.
We are really lagging in that field.


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## IndianArmy

brahmastra said:


> After getting experience of Dhruv,LCH, I don't see any fall back in bottom two projects, I'm eagerly looking at the first project in your list.
> We are really lagging in that field.



Yes Indeed We are..... But by the pace at which our R&D sector is growing Iam pretty sure about the Next Projects taken up by our Institutions


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## tinguzzz

IndianArmy said:


> Yes Indeed We are..... But by the pace at which our R&D sector is growing Iam pretty sure about the Next Projects taken up by our Institutions



I think HAL Should handle only R&D work and assembling should be giving to private companies...to speed up the process


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## wali87

Now... Unlike your LCA TEJAS and ARJUN tank. this seems to be quite an achievement. Beautiful attack heli this. Congrats to all my indian friends.. 

one thing i could help noticing is that is has a very small RCS because of which its gonna give the anti air units a very hard time.

How would it compare to a cobra though?


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## roach

Hey my Chinese friend.
You're right, we've taken a long time over all these projects- the LCA, the Arjun and a few more . I hope the defence establishment has learnt some lessons- I'm quite confident that it has.

Our roads aren't as fancy as Chinese roads, I agree. There is a lot of poverty, and you can see pictures of it everywhere. We're not perfect by any means, as the world can see.

Here's the difference between us and you Chinese.

>We are FREE.
>We can give birth to one, two, three, four, five kids.
>We don't shoot pickpockets and Buddhist Monks for protesting.
>We can criticize the government, the system, the people who rule us. They come from among us and we get our chance to kick them out every five years. We do.
>We can travel within our country and buy land or settle anywhere.
>Our people aren't so frustrated and desperate to have their say that they snap and run around stabbing schoolkids. I'm sure that is still happening, but guess what-nobody will ever know.

We're doing it the slow way. Ever cooked on a slow flame? Takes way longer, but tastes awesome.

Get over Nanking, dude. It was a long time ago.
The whole world isn't out to get the Chinese any more. We actually like you guys and your cheap phones and pedestal fans.
Your food is awesome, too. Love crispy lamb.

Keep posting, man. Peace.

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## roach

And Hey Chinese Dude!
I noticed you are in Australia and not in The Great Communist Paradise Motherland.
What happened? Liked freedom and free speech too much, eh?
It happens.


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## KS

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Karthic ,
> arent you bored of "Glass cabins" of TCS office.



  rofl:.....even though boring ...its my bread winner....so no complaints...


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## KS

*Network Centric, Light Combat Helicopter with all weather operability impresses IAF and Army Aviation *

8ak/PIB/HAL: HAL got compliments from all quarters today with the successful, official maiden flight of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) in Bangalore today. With some good engineering and commonalities with the Advanced Light Helicopter platform, it took HAL just 40 months to develop the LCH project which started in 2006.

The 5.8 tonne LCH inherits many technical features of the ALH Dhruv which includes the hingless-rotor system, transmission, Shakti engines, hydraulics, IADS, weapons system and avionics. The features that are unique to LCH are sleek & narrow fuselage, tri-cycle crashworthy landing gear, tandem cockpits, crash-worthy & self sealing fuel tanks, aero foil shaped stub wings for weapons, armour protection, NBC protection and low visibility features. 

LCH is fitted with a 20mm turret gun which will be controlled by a helmet-mounted sighting system. Besides Air-to-Air missiles, it is believed that DRDO's Helina (NAG) anti-tank guided missile will also be integrated with this platform giving it significant air-to-ground attack capability.

The helicopter would have *day/night targeting systems *for the crew including the Helmet pointed sight and Electro-optical pod consisting of CCD camera/FLIR/laser range finder/laser designator. The LRF & LD facilitate measurement of range to the target & guidance to the Laser guided Missiles respectively. A Digital Video Recorder would enable recording of the vital mission for debriefing purposes.

*The LCH is fitted with Self Protection Suite *consisting of Radar/Laser Missile warning systems and Countermeasures dispensing system. It is also planned to integrate IR/Laser missile jammer on the helicopter.

*The helicopter would be fitted with a Data Link for Network-centric operations *facilitating transfer of the mission data to the other airborne platforms and ground stations operating in the network, thus facilitating force multiplication. It has a sophisticated mission system called the Target Acquistion and Designing System (TADS).

*The machine is designed for low detection (visual, aural, radar & infra-red) and includes armour protection of critical areas*. A 30 minute dry running capability of the gear box is a built in feature to survive after a ballistic hit to the transmission system. Crash-worthiness features are built into the wheel landing gear & structure. Dual redundant systems also enhance the effectiveness of the helicopter in the battlefield environment.

*HAL claims that the performance features of the LCH i.e. rate of climb, cruise speed, service ceiling are on par, if not better than other helicopter in its class like A129/Tiger and with bigger dedicated combat helicopters like Apache, Kamov 30 or Mi-35.*

The development team included members of HAL, Indian Air Force, the certification authorities CEMILAC, DGAQA and the various suppliers of the onboard systems. LCH prototype development was based on the concept of design, ground testing and fabrication concurrently. The design & manufacturing was carried-out using the state-of-art C.A.D/C.A.M facilities which obviated the requirement of an interface check rig. The ground testing included wind-tunnel testing, landing gear drop tests, and shake test. A mock up was also built for evaluation by the Indian Air Force.

*Besides the Indian Air Force, the helicopter has also impressed the Army Aviation Corp *who could use it in a surveillance role as they await the Light Observation Helicopter which will be a single engine version for high altitudes. *Operational clearance is expected in 2012 with EcoTimes reporting that induction will begin in 2014. *

Meanwhile, *DNA reported on May 12 that the procurement of 197 reconnaissance & surveillance helicopters meant for Army Aviation may be cancelled. *

Separately, speaking to ANI, HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak said that HAL is also working on the Lakshya Mark II UAV.



*URL :-* http://www.8ak.in/8ak_india_defence_news/2010/05/light-combat-helicopter-with-network-centric-warfare-capabilities.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it because the LCH has so impressed that the AAC are going for this instead..?

Way to go HAL.......

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## KS

wali87 said:


> Now... *Unlike your LCA TEJAS and ARJUN tank.*



Care to explain it...? IOC for LCA is due in 6 months and already Army has given order for abt 250 Arjun tanks.

The reason LCH got developed so fast is due to the hardships and experiences while developing the Dhruv helicopter on which its is based.Dhruv took abt 5 years to develop while the LCH only abt 2 years.

So the experience we gained in developing the LCA Tejas will definitely show in our next project the MCA which will be developed more quickly.


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## holysaturn

IAF plaudits for LCH on its maiden flight
Bangalore, May 23, DHNS:

The indigenously produced Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) manufactured by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has got the nod of the end user - the Indian Air Force.

Inaugurating the maiden flight launch of the chopper at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) airport hereon Sunday, the Vice-Chief of Air staff, Air Marshal P K Barbora was unsparing with his admiration for the copter which is now likely to be inducted into the Armed forces by 2014.

The LCH, the military version of the Advanced Light Helicopter (Dhruv) is a dedicated attack helicopter featuring a narrow fuselage and a tandem seating for the pilot and co-pilot. The machine is designed for low detection (reduced visual, aural, radar and infra red signatures) and has crashworthy landing gear for better survivability. With a host of features, the LCH is expected to play a major role in air defence aspect of the Indian Air

Force (IAF) against slow moving aerial targets, destruction of enemy air defence operations, escort to special heliborne operations, support of combat search and rescue operations, anti-tank role and scout duties.

*It is a red letter day for not only HAL, but the whole nation. I am quite positive, the aircraft will meet all requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF) in this class of helicopters. The first display has been superb, though the chopper appears bulky and heavy,* *Barbora said. The capability to indigenise a chopper of the class of LCH is possible only by a few nations globally, he added.*

Past mistakes

*At the same time, HAL must learn from its past mistakes and not repeat them,* he said in a pointed reference to the past differences between the IAF and HAL. Ashok Nayak, HAL chairman who also spoke said, IAF had booked 65 LCHs. The army has also shown keen interest in buying a large number of these for the army aviation wing, he said. R K Singh, Secretary, Defence Production was also present.

The event was, however overshadowed by the crash of Air India Express IX-812 in Mangalore on Saturday, with Defence Minister A K Antony and Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal P V Naik staying away from the ceremony as a mark of respect to lives lost in the air disaster. Chief test pilots Unni Pillai and Hari Nair who flew the 5.8-tonne LCH, put up a 10-minute spectacular air display. 

IAF plaudits for LCH on its maiden flight

simply positive right.


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## gogbot

wali87 said:


> Now... Unlike your LCA TEJAS and ARJUN tank. this seems to be quite an achievement. Beautiful attack heli this. Congrats to all my indian friends..
> 
> one thing i could help noticing is that is has a very small RCS because of which its gonna give the anti air units a very hard time.



*Lessons* , the key important word , 

You see sir, India has learned her lessons building Helicopters from the ALH(Dhurv) .A heli that was also critiqued alongside the tejas and the Arjun . but what did that prove ,nothing . Today we have the LCH as result of the good work we did on the Dhurv.

Now while you may say 



> Unlike your LCA TEJAS and ARJUN tank.



you forget , that both those projects are also undergoing a Mk-II project.

While we may all agree the MK-I's have had their shortcomings , they are still very mature and capable platforms.

you see , sir if you actually have been following the latest news with regards to these projects.

you would be aware , that The tejas is less than 6 months away from IOC . With the first squadron already under construction. and another squadron the following year.

Arjun has showed superiority in the trials against the T-90 , and another 124 tanks have been ordered. Bringing the total to 248 tanks.

More orders will probably follow for the Mk-I's of both machines.

On top of that Funding and approval for MK-II of the projects has already been given.

Both expected to be rolled out in the next 5 years.

__________________________________________________________________

the one lesson people have not leaned is that none of these projects are a failure

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## gowthamraj

It would be better it would also used for spying and information gathering . . Think about it it save billion dollars for us. . As army want 197 of those


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## gogbot

> Besides the Indian Air Force, the helicopter has also impressed the Army Aviation Corp who could use it in a surveillance role as they await the Light Observation Helicopter which will be a single engine version for high altitudes. Operational clearance is expected in 2012 with EcoTimes reporting that induction will begin in 2014.
> 
> Meanwhile, DNA reported on May 12 that the procurement of 197 reconnaissance & surveillance helicopters meant for Army Aviation may be cancelled.



Am i reading this right ?

Our armed forces have actually opted out of foreign purchase in favour of a domestic alternative.


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## CONNAN

BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Successful Roll out and the first Official Test flight of Indias Light combat Aircraft (LCH) happened on a Sunday morning of 23rd May, Indian Air force which already operates Mi-35 Hind for over two decade now will also be inducting some new Attack Helicopter to replace them soon for which Tender to leading manufactures have already been send, IAF has already ordered 65 of LCH, but big orders are expected from Indian Army.

Indian Army till date has not operated any Combat Helicopters in its long history but have worked with Air forces Mi-35 Hind in operations in Srilanka and in UN missions, Retired Army officer Prasad chawan told idrw.org We were impressed by the Hind in various operations it was involved and we all ways wanted some in our fleet, he also added Army had asked for induction or purchases of this attack choppers for Army aviation but Air force could object to our proposal.

But local development of LCH will mean that Army aviation will also have them, Army is excited about the recent development and Army orders for LCH will be more than double of what air force has put, Chawan explained Mostly Attack helicopters are operated by Army aviation to provide cover fire for troops landing over enemy territory, air support and also has a Tank buster for moving field regiments he also pointed out that Cobra Gunship in Pakistan is operated by Pakistani Army.

---------- Post added at 08:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 AM ----------

LCH marks a new era in Indian combat avionics

BY: ANI

The successful test flight of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) on Sunday will would go down in the history of Indian combat avionics as a new era in indigenous development of dedicated fighter helicopters in the country.
The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has been developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The inaugural test flight of the LCH, which is yet to be christened, has made India enter the elite club of countries in the world which have the capability of designing, developing and manufacturing state of the art advanced combat helicopters.

The successful test flight was conducted at the HAL&#8217;s airport here, which was witnessed by a number of distinguished guests, and a huge number of people.

Defence Minister A K Antony, his deputy Pallam Raju and Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik were to attend the function, but they cancelled their visit after Saturday&#8217;s air disaster at Mangalore.

Secretary Defence Production R K Singh, Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshall P K Barbora, Chairman HAL Ashok Nayak besides many other dignitaries were present on the historic public flight of the LCH.

Describing the LCH as the &#8220;Tiger Bird&#8221;, Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshall P K Barbora said: &#8221; It&#8217;s a red letter day not only for the HAL but the whole nation. In avionics, the circus must go on,&#8221; he said while referring about Saturday&#8217;s tragic incident in Mangalore.&#8221;

&#8220;It is an unveiling of an asset for which the Indian Air Force was desperately looking for. The display was superb. I congratulate the whole HAL team, especially the rotary wing design team,&#8221; Air Marshall Barbora said.

He said the LCH has some unmatched combat and stealth features. &#8220;This is no mean achievement. There are very few countries that have the capability to build this (LCH) kind of aircraft. I am quite hopeful that the LCH would be ready for induction in the Indian Air Force in coming two to three years,&#8221; Air Marshall Barbora added.

The LCH, which weighs 5.8 tonnes, has strike the enemy target moving at a maximum speed of 268 kilometers per hour.

The &#8220;Tiger Bird&#8221; has been fitted with a 20 mm Turret gun right in the nose, which not only gives it a stunning &#8220;fighter&#8221; look but also enhances the capability to destroy target with utmost precision.

Due to its narrow fuselage with flat panels and tandem seating arrangement, in which the pilot and the co-pilot sit behind one another, the LCH is one of most compact fighter helicopter at present.

The glass cockpit, night operation capabilities, along with highly sophisticated mission systems such as the Target Acquistion and Designing System (TADS), Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS) and the Infrared (IR) Supressor are only a few out of numerous advance systems fitted in the LCH.

Apart from basic combat roles, the LCH qualifies for several other tasks as well such as the offensive employment in Urban Warfare, Counter Surface Operations (CSFO) and Counter Insurgency operations. By Shashank Shantanu

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## KS

gogbot said:


> Am i reading this right ?
> 
> Our armed forces have actually opted out of foreign purchase in favour of a domestic alternative.



Its just a grapevine bro.
Lets see if it turns out to be true....
BTW gr8 news if it indeed turns out to be true.


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## Trichy

Karthic Sri said:


> Care to explain it...? IOC for LCA is due in 6 months and already Army has given order for abt 250 Arjun tanks.
> 
> The reason LCH got developed so fast is due to the hardships and experiences while developing the Dhruv helicopter on which its is based.Dhruv took abt 5 years to develop while the LCH only abt 2 years.
> 
> So the experience we gained in developing the LCA Tejas will definitely show in our next project the MCA which will be developed more quickly.




LCH Sanctioned on 2006, In 40 Months the First Prototype Fly is a Record in Indian Aviation


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## IndianArmy

Trichy said:


> LCH Sanctioned on 2006, In 40 Months the First Prototype Fly is a Record in Indian Aviation



Obviously we are Experts in Manufacturing helicopters now, After LCA, the future combat aircrafts would be a lot easier for us.... We have also Got Ourselves into Civil aviation RTA-70..... After MRTA , HAL will also look to produce Airliner, just like Boing 737 or 747

So Just wait for it, India has Long term plans which we are working upon.... Settle for non other Than the best...


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## IndianArmy

Would this be great when these would be remodelled and converted into passenger Jets by Non Other than HAL?


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## IndianArmy

This is the passenger variant of MTA.....


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## Dark Angel




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## gogbot

^^^^^^^^

rambo 5 !!!!!!! , WTF !!!!!!!!

first of it was rambo 3

second , WTF !!! , rambo! ,rambo! . Those movies are well known for their accuracy.[sarcastic]

And thridly , this is the quality of Indian defence journalists , they talk about rambo .

This actually makes Shiv Aroor look like genius for at least knwoing what he is talking about.

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## atyagi

LCH looks awesome while flying...Congrats to HAL


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## Dash

Can anybosy tell me whats the LCH has now that dhruv doesnt have?, what could be the missions performed by these helis if they have to be deployed in war zone?


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## Tejas-MkII

Now comes the LUH:












Its looklike more than a dummy may after FOC(2011) of LCH we can expext these things


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## shaktiman2010

The way IAF chief Barbora spoke, his racism and prejudice towards HAL is clearly showing.

He would never say such things about British company who supplied third-quality AJT Hawk spare parts.

Also, I don't expect import-hungry IAF to place any big order for LCH. They will keep making excuses. LCH will end up Arjun way, a great product but tiny fundings and orders.


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## gogbot

shaktiman2010 said:


> The way IAF chief Barbora spoke, his racism and prejudice towards HAL is clearly showing.
> 
> He would never say such things about British company who supplied third-quality AJT Hawk spare parts.
> 
> Also, I don't expect import-hungry IAF to place any big order for LCH. They will keep making excuses. LCH will end up Arjun way, a great product but tiny fundings and orders.





Please do enlighten , us how you have reached this conclusion.

Last i checked IAF put in an order for 60+ LCH

and IA put it orders for twice that.


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## Kinetic

shaktiman2010 said:


> The way IAF chief Barbora spoke, his racism and prejudice towards HAL is clearly showing.
> 
> He would never say such things about British company who supplied third-quality AJT Hawk spare parts.
> 
> Also, I don't expect import-hungry IAF to place any big order for LCH. They will keep making excuses. LCH will end up Arjun way, a great product but tiny fundings and orders.



Air Marshal PK Barbora is the vice chief of the IAF not chief. Can you enlighten us what 'racism' and 'prejudice' remarks he made about HAL?


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## KEETARP

Dash said:


> Can anybosy tell me whats the LCH has now that dhruv doesnt have?, what could be the missions performed by these helis if they have to be deployed in war zone?



Extra maneuverability with stability to deliver weapons due to upgraded FCS .
New targeting system with Optronics and HMS for delivery . Better FLIR than armed Dhruv .
Better countermeasures built in from start inside , DIRCMS and RWR,LWR .most probably Israeli
Protection from NBC warfare as well.


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## Dash

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Extra maneuverability with stability to deliver weapons due to upgraded FCS .
> New targeting system with Optronics and HMS for delivery . Better FLIR than armed Dhruv .
> Better countermeasures built in from start inside , DIRCMS and RWR,LWR .most probably Israeli
> Protection from NBC warfare as well.


Hmm. Lt Prateek - You left the second question unanswered as a part of operational doctrine I guess?, anyways...Thanks.

Now can we say that Helina is actually getting into LCH's kit?, or if any delays happen then what options are we considering....


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> *Lessons* , the key important word ,
> 
> You see sir, India has learned her lessons building Helicopters from the ALH(Dhurv) .A heli that was also critiqued alongside the tejas and the Arjun . but what did that prove ,nothing . Today we have the LCH as result of the good work we did on the Dhurv.



I would say the key why the helicopter developments are doing way better than the fighter developments is the difference in approach.

We did that step by step and not everything at once like we tried with LCA!
Dhruv was developed with foreign partners and JV for design and parts that already were experienced, or mature. The latest Dhruvs instead are improved and offer way more indigenous parts like the Shakti engine for example and now we use these mature techs as the base for LCH. But not only that, we also used the experience we got through the Dhruv development to re-design it now indigenously to a dedicated combat helicopter. 

We can clearly see a learning curve here, that is clearly missing in the LCA development!

LCA was also developed with some foreign help, but instead of useing also some mature foreign parts for thei early versions, we wanted to develop all techs new and indigenously. That's mainly where the project went wrong, because now we will induct the MK1 with a foreign engine and radar, after the indigenous developments gets delayed.


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## Babur Han

It would interest me if omponents like FLIR, RWR, LWR and Avionics are Indian made or purchsed from abroad ?


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Hmm. Lt Prateek - You left the second question unanswered as a part of operational doctrine I guess?, anyways...Thanks.
> 
> Now can we say that Helina is actually getting into LCH's kit?, or if any delays happen then what options are we considering....



Does IAF, or IA already use weaponised Dhruvs? If yes, LCH will get the same as the interim option.
If not, the LCH mock up might give us a hint, because it was displayed with MBDA anti tank missiles. 






Btw, in an earlier post somebody wrote that LCH will carry 16 anti tank missiles, which is impossible. As you can see it will be a max of 8 which is normal for light combat helicopters, or 4 and 2 ungided rocket pods.


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## Dash

> Btw, in an earlier post somebody wrote that LCH will carry 16 anti tank missiles, which is impossible. As you can see it will be a max of 8 which is normal for light combat helicopters, or 4 and 2 ungided rocket pods.



I think weaponized Dhruv is under trial, Need help in clarifying it..however

16 is not true as Dhruv only uses 8. So if the HELINA is not inducted then MILAN will be used. howver I dont know if the MILAN will be air launched, coz MBDA has Brimestone as airlaunch platform. Which is as good as and at least better than hell fire missiles currently used by US army...


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## KS

sancho said:


> Btw, in an earlier post somebody wrote that LCH will carry 16 anti tank missiles, which is impossible. As you can see it will be a max of 8 which is normal for light combat helicopters, or 4 and 2 ungided rocket pods.



Will the missiles be carried in 2's as shown in the LCH pic or in quad packs as shown in this pic..?







Mayb we can go for LAHAT(in pic) missile as a common platform for both Arjun and LCH.


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## Kinetic

Skywalker1983 said:


> It would interest me if omponents like FLIR, RWR, LWR and Avionics are Indian made or purchsed from abroad ?



As far as I know most of them are Indian and few are JVs, 


*CCD camera+FLIR+Laser range finder+Laser designator (TADS):* Indian. Developed by Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DRDO). 

*Countermeasure Dispensing System (CMDS):* Indian. Developed by DRDO.

*Directional Infrared Countermeasure (DIRCM):* This laser based DIRCM is a JV between DARE (DRDO) and a foreign partner.

*Digital Video Recording System (DVRS):* Indian. Most probably developed by HAL.

*Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS):* A JV between DARE and EADS. 

*Radar Warning Receiver (RWR):* Indian. Developed by DARE (DRDO). 

*Laser Warning Receiver (LWR):* Indian. Developed by DARE (DRDO).

*Infrared/Laser missile jammer:* Planned. Most probably Indian. 

*Datalink :* Indian. Most probably developed by Defence Electronics Application Laboratory (DEAL)/Bharat Electronics Limited. 

*Helmet Mounted Sight:* Don't know.

other avionics are Indian as well.

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## ankur

Chief Test pilot Unni Pillai, who put the LCH to some rigorous and extreme maneuver tasks today, said he has flow many helicopters and other aircrafts, but not something as good, and exciting as the LCH. It is brilliant and far more better that what I have flown till date.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> I think weaponized Dhruv is under trial, Need help in clarifying it..however
> 
> 16 is not true as Dhruv only uses 8. So if the HELINA is not inducted then MILAN will be used. howver I dont know if the MILAN will be air launched, coz MBDA has Brimestone as airlaunch platform. Which is as good as and at least better than hell fire missiles currently used by US army...



Milan is not an air launched missile, it is only for IA, Brimstone could be an alternative, but GER and FRA could offer us als PARS 3, which their Tiger uses. 



Karthic Sri said:


> Will the missiles be carried in 2's as shown in the LCH pic or in quad packs as shown in this pic..?
> 
> Mayb we can go for LAHAT(in pic) missile as a common platform for both Arjun and LCH.



The LCH mock up used twin pylons for ATGM, LAHAT is possible with these quad pylons, but it is only a light ATGM (warhead weighs 4.5Kg, Nag warhead has a weight of 8Kg), if we chose an Israeli ATGM it should be Spike. 
However, we also have to keep in mind the MTOW of the helicopter and the weight of such missile packs. This also limits the weapon load and that's why heavy attack helicopter like the Apache can carry 16 ATGMs, instead of 8 like the light once.


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## cabatli_53

LCH will have a MMW radar on mast ?


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## cabatli_53

Kinetic said:


> As far as I know most of them are Indian and few are JVs,
> 
> 
> *CCD camera+FLIR+Laser range finder+Laser designator (TADS):* Indian. Developed by Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DRDO).
> 
> *Countermeasure Dispensing System (CMDS):* Indian. Developed by DRDO.
> 
> *Directional Infrared Countermeasure (DIRCM):* This laser based DIRCM is a JV between DARE (DRDO) and a foreign partner.
> 
> *Digital Video Recording System (DVRS):* Indian. Most probably developed by HAL.
> 
> *Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS):* A JV between DARE and EADS.
> 
> *Radar Warning Receiver (RWR):* Indian. Developed by DARE (DRDO).
> 
> *Laser Warning Receiver (LWR):* Indian. Developed by DARE (DRDO).
> 
> *Infrared/Laser missile jammer:* Planned. Most probably Indian.
> 
> *Datalink :* Indian. Most probably developed by Defence Electronics Application Laboratory (DEAL)/Bharat Electronics Limited.
> 
> *Helmet Mounted Sight:* Don't know.
> 
> other avionics are Indian as well.





What about MFD'S, Communication devices, Cyriptos, Mission Computer, cockpit user interfaces ? Do you know whether It has Moving Map and Obstacle detection technologies or not ?

What is the IR detector technology level of your FLIR (LWIR, MWIR, QWIP) ?


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## KEETARP

cabatli_53 said:


> LCH will have a MMW radar on mast ?



No it wont , radar was planned but later dropped . Targeting will be through thru Optronics pod .



> What about MFD'S, Communication devices, Cyriptos, Mission Computer, cockpit user interfaces ? Do you know whether It has Moving Map and Obstacle detection technologies or not ?
> 
> What is the IR detector technology level of your FLIR (LWIR, MWIR, QWIP) ?



MFD will be provided by SAMTEL INDIA 
MISSION COMPUTER by DARE 
DATALINKS - Indian but performance is classified , 

FLIR range and resolution data is classified , so will have to wait for that

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## cabatli_53

LT.PRATEEK said:


> No it wont , radar was planned but later dropped . Targeting will be through thru Optronics pod .



What about IR detector technology level of your FLIR (LWIR, MWIR, QWIP) ? You know ?


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## ramu

LT.PRATEEK said:


> No it wont , radar was planned but later dropped . Targeting will be through thru Optronics pod .



Prateek, can you share more information on the Optronics pod. What are its capabilities and what is the range of its sensor systems. How does it help in battle conditions ?


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> No it wont , radar was planned but later dropped . Targeting will be through thru Optronics pod .



Doesn't , that mean all targeting will be limited to within the horizon.

Also , how will this affect their detection of enemy units , without a radar Isn't their field of vision severely limited.


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## KEETARP

ramu said:


> Prateek, can you share more information on the Optronics pod. What are its capabilities and what is the range of its sensor systems. How does it help in battle conditions ?



Data of LCH - OPTRONICS pod , as i said earlier is classified . We don't know its range , wavelength of operation, resolution etc . 



> How does it help in battle conditions



The first Query , how it works Well ,
If you know something about Targeting Pod on Fighter jets , it would have been easier . 

Optronics Pod essentially comprises 2-3 components a 
-*FLIR / [(IRST)what we call in general ] *
Wikipedia FLIR to learn how it works , in short FLIR is must for darkness.
-*Laser Range-finder LRF*
-*Laser Range-Designator (LRF/D)*

In case of LCH Optronics Turret is on NOSE - like this 





It is this placement of the sensors on the nose LCH that is the major drawback of this sensor suite. Pod location on this part of the airframe requires the LCH to completely unmask itself from cover in order to use this sensors.

*Apache* would be a good example to explain it better -




In case of Apache there are two sensors in place on two different Turrets . These are 
*TADS* -Target Acquisition and Designation System (TADS)
*PNVS*- Pilot Night Vision System (PNVS)
The PNVS is mounted above the nose structure of the aircraft, while the larger TADS turret occupies the underside of the nose section

*For PNVS* - use Wikipedia to learn how it works , in short 
The (PNVS) consists of a Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) device that turns night into day for the pilot, a critical function for an aircraft which often must travel low and fast in order to survive . 

*TADS* - comprises of a FLIR device, two types of optical cameras, and a Laser Range-finder/Designator (LRF/D) . Entire assembly is divided into *night (starboard) and day (port) halves*, each capable of independent elevation . 






*DAYLIGHT SYSTEM*( see above image ) - On the port side are three sensors for the detection and tracking of targets when there is daylight. They are mounted in a vertical column and consist of the Direct View Optics (DVO) sensor at the top, a TV optical sensor (DTV) below, and a laser range-finder/designator at the bottom. The DVO is an optical telescope with two magnifications: x4 magnification at 18 deg. FoV, or x16 magnification at 4 deg. FoV. 
The TV optical sensor offers up to x127 magnification with a corresponding FoV of 0.45 degrees. 
The laser designator is a neodymium laser with an effective range of 20 km (12 miles) aser fulfills two specific functions. First, the laser designates targets for either its own missiles, or the missiles of another helicopter. Rather than operate in a continuous beam, the laser pulses in a pre-designated pattern. This "codes" that particular laser, distinguishing it from others. Missiles intended for that target are instructed to seek out that unique code, thus ensuring that they are guided to the correct target. Second, the laser acts as a range-finder, measuring the precise distance between aircraft and target.

*NIGHT SYSTEM* - see above image
The starboard side of the TADS system houses the FLIR sensor which provides slightly better imagery than the PNVS. This FLIR sensor provides variable field of views ranging between 50, 10, 3.1, and 1.6 degrees FoV. The FLIR of the TADS unit can be switched between "white hot" and "black hot" in order to provide better contrast against the surrounding terrain for increased target discrimination. An adjustable gain selection also aids in this target enhancement.

The imagry from the TADS unit can either be displayed on the co-pilot/gunner's own HMS/HUD unit, on one of the MFDs, or via the primary display for the gunner, the Optical Relay Tube (ORT). In addition, a video-recorder can collect information from all of the TADS sensors. As a result, the Helicoptor needs to unmask for only a short time to collect sensory input, which can be analysed in greater detail by the crew once the aircraft drops down behind cover once again. The recorder can also be used to record the aftermath of an attack for analysis upon return to base.

This is how Optronics Pod work .

For the second Query , 


> Doesn't , that mean all targeting will be limited to within the horizon.Also , how will this affect their detection of enemy units , without a radar Isn't their field of vision severely limited.


*Limitation of range* -
That's not true bcoz even if MMw radar is provided it will only give an effective range of at max 10-12 KMS , only advantage a radar would have given is All weather mode thats it ,bcoz FLIR and LASER suffers in adverse condition . 
And when there is significant Infrared-crossover when Temp of surrounding nears the object ,that can affect detection by IRST. These are the only condition where radar is better. Placing a radar has its own cons like Jamming etc .
For the range FLIR are known to work in Night at Long ranges , and LASER can target at 20kms range . And u have ATGM with max Range of 10Km or so . And till date no BVR firing by Helos is known .

*For doubt regarding Limitation of View* - 
Look at the coverage of FLIR and Pod 
FLIR sensor provides variable field of views ranging between 50, 10, 3.1, and 1.6 degrees FoV . 
TADS can be steered 120 degrees to either side horizontally and +30 / -60 degrees vertically. 
*The drive mechanism of turret contain both a "course" gimbal for rapid tracking and a "fine" gimbal for precision tracking of targets*. 
In addition, both PNVS and TADS can be rotated to a rearward-facing position when not needed in order to preserve the optical components from the wear of particles in the aircraft's flightpath.

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## IndianArmy

Kinetic said:


> As far as I know most of them are Indian and few are JVs,
> 
> 
> *CCD camera+FLIR+Laser range finder+Laser designator (TADS):* Indian. Developed by Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DRDO).
> 
> *Countermeasure Dispensing System (CMDS):* Indian. Developed by DRDO.
> 
> *Directional Infrared Countermeasure (DIRCM):* This laser based DIRCM is a JV between DARE (DRDO) and a foreign partner.
> 
> *Digital Video Recording System (DVRS):* Indian. Most probably developed by HAL.
> 
> *Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS):* A JV between DARE and EADS.
> 
> *Radar Warning Receiver (RWR):* Indian. Developed by DARE (DRDO).
> 
> *Laser Warning Receiver (LWR):* Indian. Developed by DARE (DRDO).
> 
> *Infrared/Laser missile jammer:* Planned. Most probably Indian.
> 
> *Datalink :* Indian. Most probably developed by Defence Electronics Application Laboratory (DEAL)/Bharat Electronics Limited.
> 
> *Helmet Mounted Sight:* Don't know.
> 
> other avionics are Indian as well.



HMD must be samtel..... I dont know, as they are the Only Indian Company till now who Makes HMD's ...


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## BJlaowai

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Extra maneuverability with stability to deliver weapons due to upgraded FCS .
> New targeting system with Optronics and HMS for delivery . Better FLIR than armed Dhruv .
> Better countermeasures built in from start inside , DIRCMS and RWR,LWR .most probably Israeli
> Protection from NBC warfare as well.



What about armor protection against light artillary fire? 
Druv doesnt have, LCH has.
I would say, ALH Dhruv is like a flying pick-up truck and LCH is flying tank. Dhruv is flexible and multi-purpose whereas LCH is a exclusive fighting machine.


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## IndianArmy

Armed ALH Dhruv video....

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## Kinetic

cabatli_53 said:


> What about MFD'S, Communication devices, Cyriptos, Mission Computer, cockpit user interfaces ? Do you know whether It has Moving Map and Obstacle detection technologies or not ?
> 
> What is the IR detector technology level of your FLIR (LWIR, MWIR, QWIP) ?



The MFD's are AMLCD, developed by Samtel-HAL joint venture company. 

All the communication devices onboard all Indian aircrafts are Indian. If the aircraft is Indian or foreign doesn't matter. Example P-8I, C-130J, LCH, ALH, Su-30MKI etc.

Mission computer (MC) is Indian developed by DRDO. All most all the Indian choppers and fighters now have Indian MC. 

Cyriptos? is it kryptos? encryption? All the military grade datalink are encrypted and secure. Its a part of datalink.

Cockpit: All the system are Indian I guess. They are well experianced in this area.

Don't know about obstacle detection but must have a digital moving map..... ALH Dhruv also have this.... seen in a pic....

Don't know about IR detection technology but different developed made few TADS (that include FLIR, CCD camera, LRF/LRD). For example this one is from Tata.... but the one onbord LCH might be developed by DRDO.


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## Kinetic

IndianArmy said:


> HMD must be samtel..... I dont know, as they are the Only Indian Company till now who Makes HMD's ...



Correct sir. Samtel-HAL jointly make HMS. The Samtel-Thales JV is for TopSight-I I guess which is only for fighter aircrafts.


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## KS

sancho said:


> The LCH mock up used twin pylons for ATGM, LAHAT is possible with these quad pylons, but it is only a light ATGM (warhead weighs 4.5Kg, Nag warhead has a weight of 8Kg), if we chose an Israeli ATGM it should be Spike.
> However, we also have to keep in mind the MTOW of the helicopter and the weight of such missile packs. This also limits the weapon load and that's why heavy attack helicopter like the Apache can carry 16 ATGMs, instead of 8 like the light once.



But the weight of the Spike is more than twice that of the LAHAT which is a constraint on the LCH.
Moreover if the 4.5 kg is enough to do the job...y go for 9 kg which is an overkill..?


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## Kinetic

Karthic Sri said:


> But the weight of the Spike is more than twice that of the LAHAT which is a constraint on the LCH.
> Moreover if the 4.5 kg is enough to do the job...y go for 9 kg which is an overkill..?



It will be LAHAT and Helina. LCH already got laser designator for LAHAT and Helina is exclusively developed for LCH.


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## CONNAN

*Network Centric, Light Combat Helicopter with all weather operability impresses IAF and Army Aviation *

8ak - Indian Defence News






8ak/PIB/HAL: HAL got compliments from all quarters today with the successful, official maiden flight of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) in Bangalore today. With some good engineering and commonalities with the Advanced Light Helicopter platform, it took HAL just 40 months to develop the LCH project which started in 2006.

The 5.8 tonne LCH inherits many technical features of the ALH Dhruv which includes the hingless-rotor system, transmission, Shakti engines, hydraulics, IADS, weapons system and avionics. The features that are unique to LCH are sleek & narrow fuselage, tri-cycle crashworthy landing gear, tandem cockpits, crash-worthy & self sealing fuel tanks, aero foil shaped stub wings for weapons, armour protection, NBC protection and low visibility features. 

LCH is fitted with a 20mm turret gun which will be controlled by a helmet-mounted sighting system. Besides Air-to-Air missiles, it is believed that DRDO's Helina (NAG) anti-tank guided missile will also be integrated with this platform giving it significant air-to-ground attack capability.

The helicopter would have day/night targeting systems for the crew including the Helmet pointed sight and Electro-optical pod consisting of CCD camera/FLIR/laser range finder/laser designator. The LRF & LD facilitate measurement of range to the target & guidance to the Laser guided Missiles respectively. A Digital Video Recorder would enable recording of the vital mission for debriefing purposes.

The LCH is fitted with Self Protection Suite consisting of Radar/Laser Missile warning systems and Countermeasures dispensing system. It is also planned to integrate IR/Laser missile jammer on the helicopter.

The helicopter would be fitted with a Data Link for Network-centric operations facilitating transfer of the mission data to the other airborne platforms and ground stations operating in the network, thus facilitating force multiplication. It has a sophisticated mission system called the Target Acquistion and Designing System (TADS).

The machine is designed for low detection (visual, aural, radar & infra-red) and includes armour protection of critical areas. A 30 minute dry running capability of the gear box is a built in feature to survive after a ballistic hit to the transmission system. Crash-worthiness features are built into the wheel landing gear & structure. Dual redundant systems also enhance the effectiveness of the helicopter in the battlefield environment.

HAL claims that the performance features of the LCH i.e. rate of climb, cruise speed, service ceiling are on par, if not better than other helicopter in its class like A129/Tiger and with bigger dedicated combat helicopters like Apache, Kamov 30 or Mi-35.

The development team included members of HAL, Indian Air Force, the certification authorities CEMILAC, DGAQA and the various suppliers of the onboard systems. LCH prototype development was based on the concept of design, ground testing and fabrication concurrently. The design & manufacturing was carried-out using the state-of-art C.A.D/C.A.M facilities which obviated the requirement of an interface check rig. The ground testing included wind-tunnel testing, landing gear drop tests, and shake test. A mock up was also built for evaluation by the Indian Air Force.

Besides the Indian Air Force, the helicopter has also impressed the Army Aviation Corp who could use it in a surveillance role as they await the Light Observation Helicopter which will be a single engine version for high altitudes. Operational clearance is expected in 2012 with EcoTimes reporting that induction will begin in 2014. 

Meanwhile, DNA reported on May 12 that the procurement of 197 reconnaissance & surveillance helicopters meant for Army Aviation may be cancelled. 

Separately, speaking to ANI, HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak said that HAL is also working on the Lakshya Mark II UAV.

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## CONNAN



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## sancho

Karthic Sri said:


> But the weight of the Spike is more than twice that of the LAHAT which is a constraint on the LCH.
> Moreover if the 4.5 kg is enough to do the job...y go for 9 kg which is an overkill..?



That's what I said, LAHAT is more an tank ammo and not really an ATGM, all real air launched ATGMs are clearly heavier:

NAG/Helina: normal weight 42Kg, warhead 8Kg
Spike: 34Kg, ?
Hellfire: 45 - 49Kg, 8 - 9Kg
Pars 3: 49Kg, 9Kg
Brimstone: 48.5Kg, ?

LAHAT: 13.5Kg, 4.5Kg 

The fact that even the Israeli forces don't use only LAHAT but developed several versions of the Spike missile, should make clear that bigger ATGMs are needed in the anti tank role. 
Not even the official brochure calls it ATGM:

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/3/34883.pdf


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## KS

sancho said:


> That's what I said, LAHAT is more an tank ammo and not really an ATGM, all real air launched ATGMs are clearly heavier:
> 
> NAG/Helina: normal weight 42Kg, warhead 8Kg
> Spike: 34Kg, ?
> Hellfire: 45 - 49Kg, 8 - 9Kg
> Pars 3: 49Kg, 9Kg
> Brimstone: 48.5Kg, ?
> 
> LAHAT: 13.5Kg, 4.5Kg



Dude i agree that the warhead is small..But my only query is if 4.5 is enough for the job why go for 9 kg ?



sancho said:


> The fact that even the Israeli forces don't use only LAHAT but developed several versions of the Spike missile, should make clear that bigger ATGMs are needed in the anti tank role.



the Spike can be used on heavy duty choppers like the Apache which incidentally the Israelis use and which doesnt have that much weight constraints as the LCH.

The* LAHAT can be suitable for our LCH (less weight) and the Spike better suited for the heavy attack chopper like Mi-35* which we r currently using or the 22 attack choppers that we r gonna buy.


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## Dash

Sancho showed us a pic for LCH pylons, in fact we all have seen it by now which is a missile from MBDA. So most probably Brimestone. abnd Iam not sure if LAHAT and HELINA both can be used...?


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## sancho

Karthic Sri said:


> Dude i agree that the warhead is small..But my only query is if 4.5 is enough for the job why go for 9 kg ?
> 
> 
> 
> the Spike can be used on heavy duty choppers like the Apache which incidentally the Israelis use and which doesnt have that much weight constraints as the LCH.
> 
> The* LAHAT can be suitable for our LCH (less weight) and the Spike better suited for the heavy attack chopper like Mi-35* which we r currently using or the 22 attack choppers that we r gonna buy.



If such a small warhead would be enough, don't you think that every country would go for it? But as I showed you, all air launched ATGMs for light, or heavy combat helicopters are heavier and use around 8Kg warheads. I don't deny that LAHAT could be used with LCH, but most likely not in the anti tank role, possibly more against armoured vehicles, or light tanks.


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## Dash

> Dude i agree that the warhead is small..But my only query is if 4.5 is enough for the job why go for 9 kg



LAHAT I dont think can be used from Helis, as its a tank gun based missile system. 
Like Sancho said you need to have air launch missile system like, hell fire, Brimestone, so that should answer your query.

Sancho -
Only I guess Spike NLOS can be heli launched, but that itself is around 70 Kg I read somewhere.
So do you think Spike as a feasible system for LCH?..


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## KS

sancho said:


> I don't deny that LAHAT could be used with LCH, but most likely not in the anti tank role, possibly more against armoured vehicles, or light tanks.



Yeah this is realistic.We can go afor a combination of LAHAT and SPIKE/BRIMSTONE (Till HELINA comes) and use them according to the mission requirements.



Dash said:


> LAHAT I dont think can be used from Helis, as its a tank gun based missile system.
> Like Sancho said you need to have air launch missile system like, hell fire, Brimestone, so that should answer your query.



No,it can be launched from Helis also.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/3/34883.pdf


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## gowthamraj

already tons of times posted. .


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## Moscow

have to wait for the high altitude test to fix the higher load issue in thinner air ....


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## Dash

> No,it can be launched from Helis also.



Hmm. I guess I missed that info as everywhere I read they said nothing about LAHAT being fired from a heli. Thank you

We will have to wait and see when they select the wepons for LCH. I guess it will ab year or something when the weapons trial will start.


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## wali87

gogbot said:


> *Lessons* , the key important word ,
> 
> You see sir, India has learned her lessons building Helicopters from the ALH(Dhurv) .A heli that was also critiqued alongside the tejas and the Arjun . but what did that prove ,nothing . Today we have the LCH as result of the good work we did on the Dhurv.
> 
> Now while you may say
> 
> 
> 
> you forget , that both those projects are also undergoing a Mk-II project.
> 
> While we may all agree the MK-I's have had their shortcomings , they are still very mature and capable platforms.
> 
> you see , sir if you actually have been following the latest news with regards to these projects.
> 
> you would be aware , that The tejas is less than 6 months away from IOC . With the first squadron already under construction. and another squadron the following year.
> 
> Arjun has showed superiority in the trials against the T-90 , and another 124 tanks have been ordered. Bringing the total to 248 tanks.
> 
> More orders will probably follow for the Mk-I's of both machines.
> 
> On top of that Funding and approval for MK-II of the projects has already been given.
> 
> Both expected to be rolled out in the next 5 years.
> 
> __________________________________________________________________
> 
> the one lesson people have not leaned is that none of these projects are a failure




My point is that LCH seems to be a success while arjun and tejas are not.
I dont want to discuss these two here but 25 years in development of a plane, by the time mk2 comes out its going to be 35 years since the the plane was started. Hence, the platform will already be obsolete.
same goes for arjun.

In the field of defense, i don't think nations the have time and precious taxpayers money JUST TO LEARN LESSONS specially when they have enemies sitting on two of their borders. The government is wasting money on learning lessons while half of your population is dying of hunger? would you call that moral? how many other countries have spent so much time learning just lessons? 

Why waste time when you can easily obtain all the necessary avionics and other hardware from friendly countries like Russia and Israel who won't even put sanctions rather support you in hard times.

Anyhow, dhruv took 5 years. and LCH took 2. this is how you define success. money well spent.


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## ramu

wali87 said:


> My point is that LCH seems to be a success while arjun and tejas are not.
> I dont want to discuss these two here but 25 years in development of a plane, by the time mk2 comes out its going to be 35 years since the the plane was started. Hence, the platform will already be obsolete.
> same goes for arjun.



Totally disagree. India had very little understanding of building and managing projects of the scale of LCA. It is not just technological pit falls but the sheer magnitude and synchronization required to make this work. LCA or Arjun took a long time but 25 years is not the actual number. Indians have the habit of announcing the project and hyping it up but the project and funds start trickling a decade later. This is a flaw in the system but not good to add it to the actual time of development. *We did take a long time but not longer than we can afford.*

The incentives in kick backs and all the good things associated with imported 'maal' is a mindset that has to change even in defense sectors. The IAF was a not so ideal customer by making changes in the requirements and so is the case for Arjun. Taking a wide brush and labeling them failed is to ignore the supporting industries and the defense ecosystem created in India because of these projects. In many ways, the LCA project has helped ramp up the Dhruv and LCH but not many outsiders know about this.



wali87 said:


> In the field of defense, i don't think nations the have time and precious taxpayers money JUST TO LEARN LESSONS specially when they have enemies sitting on two of their borders. The government is wasting money on learning lessons while half of your population is dying of hunger? would you call that moral? how many other countries have spent so much time learning just lessons?
> 
> Anyhow, dhruv took 5 years. and LCH took 2. this is how you define success. money well spent.



If you are a carpenter and import wood for your job. You can't get wood from the local forest because your axe is not sharp enough. Would you continue importing or take time to sharpen your axe or import an axe ?

The lessons learnt will go a long way in saving loads of foreign exchange in the years to come. Once organisations like HAL[ADA], BEL, DRDO start delivering and private players like L&T, TATA, Mahindra recognize the lucrative defense market and gear up to it, mark my words. *India on Top*

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## Dash

> I dont want to discuss these two here but 25 years in development of a plane, by the time mk2 comes out its going to be 35 years since the the plane was started. Hence, the platform will already be obsolete.
> same goes for arjun.
> 
> In the field of defense, i don't think nations the have time and precious taxpayers money JUST TO LEARN LESSONS specially when they have enemies sitting on two of their borders. The government is wasting money on learning lessons while half of your population is dying of hunger? would you call that moral? how many other countries have spent so much time learning just lessons?



Hi Wali87 -
When you look at things related to defense research in India, you are correct in saying that LCA and Arjun took decades to meterialize. However i will not talk about teh real time taken by the LCA and Arjun as facts are given in net and it will be off topic if we start discusing the "ACTUAL" timelines of these machines.



> In the field of defense, i don't think nations the have time and precious taxpayers money JUST TO LEARN LESSONS specially when they have enemies sitting on two of their borders.



if you wont use Tax payers money then whose money you will use anyway?...

Its not about tax payers money or the enemy sitting at the borders, we were always capable of nutralizing the enemy and everybody knows that there was no full scale war happening.

*Do you iknow that total LCA developement costs only 600 million?, and it was taxpayers money. Buying 126 multirole advanced fighter will cost around 50-60 billion if we take life time maintainance and weapons etc into considerations. And That is also Tax payers money*


So which one will you prefer?

US, Russia, Israel can give us weapons of our choice for sure. and you would not be surprized to know that :- 

*"This is the only reason we invest so much in so called learning lessons, Because for the very reason that we know that we can buy anything we want, anytime!!!*

and we thank Russia, Israel and even you in US for giving us the peace of mind

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## sancho

Dash said:


> LAHAT I dont think can be used from Helis, as its a tank gun based missile system.
> Like Sancho said you need to have air launch missile system like, hell fire, Brimestone, so that should answer your query.
> 
> Sancho -
> Only I guess Spike NLOS can be heli launched, but that itself is around 70 Kg I read somewhere.
> So do you think Spike as a feasible system for LCH?..


No Dash, Spike ER is also available for helicopters as you can see on the following pics:


*Spanish Eurocopter Tiger with Spike ER on a quad pylon and 2 WVR missiles:*

http://*****************/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/tiger-spike.jpg


*Close up with another roket pod:*








*With an Israeli Blackhawk:*







It has not the 25Km range of NLOS, but with 8Km it is as good as Hellfire, or NAG and weighs only 34Kg each. The hole package of quad launcher and 4 missiles should weigh around 187Kg, which should be possible for LCH too, but as you can see at the Tiger only at the inner wing stations and I guess that is also similar to LCH too.


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## sancho

wali87 said:


> My point is that LCH seems to be a success while arjun and tejas are not.
> I dont want to discuss these two here but 25 years in development of a plane, by the time mk2 comes out its going to be 35 years since the the plane was started. *Hence, the platform will already be obsolete.
> same goes for arjun.*



You are of course right that both developments are way too delayed, but they won't be obsolete, because instead of inducting a limited capable fighter/tank and improve it by the time, which we don't have anymore, both projects already had gone to the upgrades stages. LCA MK1 will only come in limited numbers for fast replacement and because it won't be leathal for long. LCA MK2 instead is already under evaluation and will come in twice, or three times the numbers. Arjun was a bit different, but even there the MK2 version will come soon, so the forces countering the delays by faster induction of upgraded versions.



wali87 said:


> In the field of defense, i don't think nations the have time and precious taxpayers money JUST TO LEARN LESSONS specially when they have enemies sitting on two of their borders. The government is wasting money on learning lessons while half of your population is dying of hunger? would you call that moral? how many other countries have spent so much time learning just lessons?



Nearly all country did the same, because you can only learn if you make mistakes. How many V1 and V2 missiles of the Nazis crashed during the starts but they learned and improved and today all missiles techs are based on their experinces. Same goes for developments in all fields!
Regarding the security while learning, exactly because the forces don't want to depend on indigenous developments only, we have competitions like MMRCA, or LUH, which replaces one half of the Mig 21, or Sa 315/316 fleet. These offer proven aircrafts, while we can develop LCA, or LOH indigenously.



wali87 said:


> Why waste time when you can easily obtain all the necessary avionics and other hardware from friendly countries like Russia and Israel who won't even put sanctions rather support you in hard times.
> 
> Anyhow, dhruv took 5 years. and LCH took 2. this is how you define success. money well spent.



That's exactly my point, we wanted to do too much on our own, which led to these delays and cost increasings.

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## gogbot

wali87 said:


> My point is that LCH seems to be a success while arjun and tejas are not.



All projects have proved themselves time and again.



wali87 said:


> I dont want to discuss these two here but 25 years in development of a plane, by the time mk2 comes out its going to be 35 years since the the plane was started. Hence, the platform will already be obsolete.



Another LCA analyst.

If you know anything about the LCA , you would no the plane was designed in the late 80's with future technology in mind.

It was then develop through out the 90's and 2000's .

Anyone who calls the Tejas obsolescent , has idea what they are talking about.

You find any of you so called obsolescence. Please feel free to point it out in the LCA tejas thread , but i doubt you will.




wali87 said:


> same goes for arjun.



The same obsolescence that helped it outperform and out gun the 
T-90 , agreed by many to be one of the worlds best tanks



wali87 said:


> In the field of defense, i don't think nations the have time and precious taxpayers money JUST TO LEARN LESSONS specially when they have enemies sitting on two of their borders. The government is wasting money on learning lessons while half of your population is dying of hunger? would you call that moral? how many other countries have spent so much time learning just lessons?
> Why waste time when you can easily obtain all the necessary avionics and other hardware from friendly countries like Russia and Israel who won't even put sanctions rather support you in hard times.



I am sorry but what you wrote does'nt here is wrong in so many ways , i don't have the time to explain why it's wrong.

You are over simplifying the situation , and you simply dont know how anything works ,

Sorry but thats just what i see in your words



wali87 said:


> Anyhow, dhruv took 5 years. and LCH took 2. this is how you define success. money well spent.



???

Is that the criteria for success.

I don't agree


----------



## CONNAN

sancho said:


> *With an Israeli Blackhawk:*



*beautifully modified BLACK HAWK GOOD JOB ISREAL
*


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## shaktiman2010

Black hawk is bulky and will take higher maintenance costs and time compared to LCH.

I would still prefer LCH. Lets see how much IAF supports it. So far, IAF has not invested a single paisa on rotorcraft R&D in India. They are wasting all attention and money on Russian junk since decades.

I would like to see some honest funding initiatives from IAF like US airforce does across universities.


----------



## KEETARP

shaktiman2010 said:


> *Lets see how much IAF supports it. So far, IAF has not invested a single paisa on rotorcraft R&D in India.*



Thats not correct,
Try and learn about Program and weapon development first before you point your fingers at Professional organization like Armed Forces
what do you know about developmental cost of LCH 
what contribution is by HAL , how much is by Gov . 
what source you have to claim IAF has made zero investment .

Here is the brochure page -

Zoom it and try to see how much support IAF has given in the program , and how many IAF teams have worked day-night to have this machine up and running.



> *They are wasting all attention and money on Russian junk since decades*.



Another bold statement without any thought,logic . 
I don't want to counter that statement bcoz it dosen't deserves any explanation.

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## gogbot

While looking for information on the INSAS system on PIB press release , i seem to have caught something that has fallen through the crack's 

PIB Press Release



> *Tuesday, February 16, 2010
> Ministry of Defence
> 
> DEFENCE IMPORTS AFFECTS NATIONAL SECURITY, FOREIGN POLICY: PALLAM RAJU
> 
> 17:34 IST	*
> 
> *Following is the text of the inaugural address delivered by the Minister of State for Defence Dr. MM Pallam Raju to the Seminar on &#8216;The Indian Army : Next Generation Systems, An Evolution&#8217;, organised by the PHD Chamber at DefExpo &#8211; 2010, here today:-*
> 
> ....
> 
> *ALH (Dhruv) has been introduced in service with latest weapon mounted platform. *Similarly procurement of Cheetal helicopters is already underway
> 
> ....



I guess weaponised DHURV has alredy entered service

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## bluefox

gogbot said:


> While looking for information on the INSAS system on PIB press release , i seem to have caught something that has fallen through the crack's
> 
> PIB Press Release
> 
> 
> 
> I guess weaponised DHURV has alredy entered service



awesome machine man!!!


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## hal-fgfa

*DHRUV with weapons ???????*


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## brahmastra

hal-fgfa said:


> *DHRUV with weapons ???????*



go to post #268

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/16686-indias-light-combat-helicopter-lch-18.html#post879975


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## Kinetic

LCH flying nose down vertically....

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## brahmastra



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## brahmastra

Part of a handout brochure on the day of the inaugural flight.

source: livefist

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## Dash

> No Dash, Spike ER is also available for helicopters as you can see on the following pics:



Thanks for the Info Sancho - However I read somewhere that IA did test the spike ATGM sometime back and it failed the desert tests and hot summer tests.

LCH will most probably carry the same weapons package for Dhruv. So far I dont know what ATGM dhruv will use. 

We have recent baught some 2000 Milan II ATGMs, so that gives me some indication that Milan II will be used for ATGM roles for the time being.

Anyways - Still not sure but if we can figure out what ATGM Dhruv will be usibng then it can be made clear. I have searched and found nothing..but still searching


----------



## sancho

Dash said:


> Thanks for the Info Sancho - However I read somewhere that IA did test the spike ATGM sometime back and it failed the desert tests and hot summer tests.
> 
> LCH will most probably carry the same weapons package for Dhruv. So far I dont know what ATGM dhruv will use.
> 
> We have recent baught some 2000 Milan II ATGMs, so that gives me some indication that Milan II will be used for ATGM roles for the time being.
> 
> Anyways - Still not sure but if we can figure out what ATGM Dhruv will be usibng then it can be made clear. I have searched and found nothing..but still searching



As I said, Milan is just for the army and there is no air launched version of it. I expect Spike or Hellfire, because it was offered from the US, but lets see.


----------



## IndianArmy

wali87 said:


> My point is that LCH seems to be a success while arjun and tejas are not.



Arjun proved its metal Against T-90, If Arjun is a failure So IS T-90 According to you??? 250 Ordered, and The development fund for MK2 approved.

LCA Tejas, Completed thousands of flight tests, But HAL could not compete with the pace of IAF standards, IAF kep on changing its standards and Requirement.... My Dear Rafale took Two decade aswell.... And Its getting IOC this December 



wali87 said:


> I dont want to discuss these two here but 25 years in development of a plane, by the time mk2 comes out its going to be 35 years since the the plane was started. Hence, the platform will already be obsolete.
> same goes for arjun.
> 
> In the field of defense, i don't think nations the have time and precious taxpayers money JUST TO LEARN LESSONS specially when they have enemies sitting on two of their borders. The government is wasting money on learning lessons while half of your population is dying of hunger? would you call that moral? how many other countries have spent so much time learning just lessons?



LCA tejas was Our second Aircraft project, but to jump 2 generations Ahead is not a child play, LCA Tejas has Indian Avionics and Softwares, But as the requirements are urgen engines are not Indian , But Kaveri will be ready for MK2.We Tax Payers want our Country to be self dependent, I dont think We care about it much, A countries Growth is dependent on how much it has progressed In the fields It requires the Most.... The More we spend today, the more we earn Tomorrow, we Work on that principle....India is a Super Power In the making




wali87 said:


> Why waste time when you can easily obtain all the necessary avionics and other hardware from friendly countries like Russia and Israel who won't even put sanctions rather support you in hard times.



Because To remain as Friendly Countries we need to improve our potential, Like tomorrow in case of any Conflict, We must be able to Support Our Allies..... And We want our Country to be self sufficient 



wali87 said:


> Anyhow, dhruv took 5 years. and LCH took 2. this is how you define success. money well spent.



Yes, Success is Not measured in time, But Experience


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## anathema

Kinetic said:


> LCH flying nose down vertically....
> 
> YouTube - TV9 Gujarat - Lightest helicopter now with the Indian air force



Incorrect its a optical illusion.


----------



## vaibhav

where does lch stand in comparsion to chinese ZHI-10
Zhi-10 Attack Helicopter





Zhi-10

The Zhi-10 (Z-10) attack helicopter has been developed by Changhe Aircraft Industries Group (CAIG) and China Helicopter Research and Development Institute (CHRDI), both based in Jingdezhen, Jiangxi Province. Another PRC helicopter manufacturer, Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Company (HAMC), may have also involved in the development programme.

The Z-10 is thought to be in the same class as the Agusta A-129, South African Rooivalk, and German Tiger. Its primary mission is anti-armour and battlefield interdiction, with a secondary capability for air-to-air combat. The helicopter first flew on 29 April 2003. A small number of prototypes have been undergoing test and evaluation.

The PRC began to develop a dedicated attack helicopter in the mid-1990s. AVIC II, the parent company of CAIG and CHRDI, has been working with European partners on a common helicopter dynamic system, which can be used on both the proposed medium helicopter and the attack helicopter. However, no foreign firm has been directly involved in the Z-10 development.

The helicopter is powered by two Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C turboshaft engines. The PRC will need to obtain the engine production license, or develop an alternative engine before the serial production of the helicopter can begin.

Design

Internet source photos revealed that the Z-10 has a conventional attack helicopter layout, with the pilot and weapons operator seated in tandem, stepped cockpits. The helicopter has a five-blade main rotor and a four-blade tail rotor. Two engines are podded to the helicopter just to the rear of the cockpit. The fuselage has a sloped side to reduce its radar cross section (RCS), and is slender and tapered to the rear, with fixed landing gear. The tail boom tapers to the rear, with a high, swept-back fin with square tip. The flats are unequally tapered with a square tip, while the belly fin has the rear landing wheel attached. The tail rotor is mounted on the right side.

The helicopter is thought to be fitted with a fly-by-wire (FBW) control system, and a modern glass cockpit with multifunctional display (MFD) screens. The helicopter crew may also be equipped with a helmet-mounted sight (HMS) for head-up display of information and weapon control.

Weapons

The helicopter is fitted with a cannon (23mm?) mounted under the nose. Two stub wings provide four stores stations for external ordinance. A new-generation anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) HJ-10 is currently in development. The missile is thought to be comparable to the U.S. AGM-114 Hellfire. The helicopter can carry up to eight missiles under the stub wings for anti-armour role. Alternatively, the helicopter can carry unguided rocket pods for ground attack, or TY-90 short-range air-to-air missiles for air combat.

Electronic Equipments

An observation unit consisting of a forward looking infrared (FLIR) and a low-light television is mounted on a steerable platform at the nose of the helicopter. The electronic countermeasures (ECM) suite consists of radar warning receiver (RWR), laser warning receiver, infrared jammer and chaff / flare decoy dispenser.

Engines

The Z-10 is powered by two Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C turboshaft engines with Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC). The engines have a maximum continuous power of 1,531hp (1,142kw) each.


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## Vasily Zaytsev

Something regarding LCH on NDTV


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## IndianArmy

Today I understood How more dumb can our media be....


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## Kinetic

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Something regarding LCH on NDTV
> 
> 
> YouTube - India's indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) - NDTV report 01 of 02
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - India's indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) - NDTV report 02 of 02



Lots of mistakes in the reporting but good to see LCH flying videos. 

I liked the line... *"dushman ko barbaad kar dega..."*


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## IndianArmy

Kinetic said:


> Lots of mistakes in the reporting but good to see LCH flying videos.
> 
> I liked the line... *"dushman ko barbaad kar dega..."*



Our media gives some over hypes.... Especially when it comes to defense...

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## Chaluboy

IndianArmy said:


> Today I understood How more dumb can our media be....



Our media just caters to the lowest common denominator, Unfortunately this is the reporting style that aam aadmi expects.


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## hal-fgfa

seriously these days standard of our media going down and down only


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## sudhir007

speaking about Apache helicopter but showing Mi-35 wooooooo our media is rocking


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## Abingdonboy

does anyone know when the dhruv armed version will be inducted and the quantity to be procured?


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## Abingdonboy

+ sorry, also what is the timeline for inductinf the foriegn heavy attack helos(apaches...)?thanks


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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> does anyone know when the dhruv armed version will be inducted and the quantity to be procured?


Its already inducted in the army with the latest weapons package. I have no clue about the numbers though.



> + sorry, also what is the timeline for inductinf the foriegn heavy attack helos(apaches...)?thanks



The trials are begining in July, after which it will take 2 years for deal to to be signed and production to start, I guess...so take that as 2 years....There are 22 attack helis India needs.


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## KEETARP

> Its already inducted in the army with the latest weapons package. I have no clue about the numbers though



WSI Dhruv is *still undergoing weapon trials* , its not yet inducted .


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## Dash

LT.PRATEEK said:


> WSI Dhruv is *still undergoing weapon trials* , its not yet inducted .


No Prateek -

here is PIB release link, which says Weaponized Dhruv is inducted.

PIB Press Release

An extract from the release ----



> Arjun and T-90 tanks have been inducted into the service and production within the country as already commenced. The upgradation or older version tanks (T-72) is already underway with the collaboration of Private Industry. *ALH (Dhruv) has been introduced in service with latest weapon mounted platform. *Similarly procurement of Cheetal helicopters is already underway. Replacement of L-70 guns and ZU 23 guns by new generation Air Defence weapon systems and induction of AKASH Missile Systems has commenced. The upgradation of Base workshops and the CODs is progressing at good pace.



Thanks


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## KEETARP

That Press release is 16Feb 

Here is direct interview of *HAL chairman by Anant Krishnan*( Tarmak Blog and AviationWeek India's editor) on May28 
India Thought Leaders: HAL Chairman Sets Firm Agenda For Aggressive Export Sales | AVIATION WEEK

Imp Extract -


> AW: When you put 2010-11 in perspective, what are the key projects that could enter various levels of completion?
> 
> 
> 
> A.N.: We are targeting commencement of delivery of the ALH-Mk-III variant to IAF and the Army. ALH-Mk-III is the helicopter with Shakti engine and mission sensors suited for military applications, including high- altitude operations. *Weapon trials on ALH Mk.IV (Armed Variant) also will be completed toward certification of the variant*. Another major milestone targeted is the delivery of IJT for user trials. The flight evaluation of the AL-55i engine has been completed. Evaluation of spin characteristics, one of the critical flight parameters for a trainer aircraft, is planned in the year



I will take word of HAL chairman more trustworthy.


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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone have any news about the joint Indo-Isreali UAV programme to turn old Indian Air Force Cheetaks into UCAVs, I read about it ages ago but have heard little to know information about it.












LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: The Chetak UAV inside/out Part-3


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## sudhir007

Abingdonboy said:


> Does anyone have any news about the joint Indo-Isreali UAV programme to turn old Indian Air Force Cheetaks into UCAVs, I read about it ages ago but have heard little to know information about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: The Chetak UAV inside/out Part-3


why every where you are giving this detail if somebody want to give you answer it will PLZ DNT TOLERANT


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## Abingdonboy

sudhir007 said:


> why every where you are giving this detail if somebody want to give you answer it will PLZ DNT TOLERANT



okay, okay, I'm sorry I just really want to know the answer I won't post it anymore.


----------



## shiningindia

Abingdonboy said:


> okay, okay, I'm sorry I just really want to know the answer I won't post it anymore.



not need for sorry bcoz u r in defence.pk.
how ever no information available about UCAV.


----------



## KEETARP

Abingdonboy said:


> Does anyone have any news about the joint Indo-Isreali UAV programme to turn old Indian Air Force Cheetaks into UCAVs, I read about it ages ago but have heard little to know information about it.



"Here we Go "- First of all its called NRUAV or MRUAV in Israel and its *not that we are turning old Chetak into UAV , this UAV will be newly designed machine* .
-Only Fuselage design will be similar to chetak 
-Gearbox will be new 
-Engine will be uprated shakti engine . 
-Onboard sensors will be -Israeli IAI-supplied EL/M-2022H(V)2 multi-mode radar
-A nose-mounted stabilised MOSP optronic turret housing a low-light-level TV camera as well as a thermal image
-A four-element radar warning receiver developed by the DRDO&#8217;s DARE lab.
-two-way secure data links, HAL-built Mk12 Mode 5 IFF transponder, and a rear-mounted Harpoon deck-arresting gear
-shipborne VSAT terminals and ground control stations, with the latter being a derivative of that for the Heron 2 UAV

The principal role of the MRUAV will include beyond-the-horizon surveillance, over-the-horizon targeting, ELINT, COMINT, ground mapping and location of moving ground-based targets, and airborne early warning. The MRUAV will not carry any on-board weapons for the moment, but could in future be armed with a single heavyweight torpedo or two lightweight torpedoes.

*Here is the product brochure *





*First flight is later this year*

I covered its detail in post during XINIX-Feel The UAV might series . Here is the link to that -
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53123-feel-reach-indian-uavs-2.html

Scroll down in above link and feel the ..............

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## Kinetic

Abingdonboy said:


> Does anyone have any news about the joint Indo-Isreali UAV programme to turn old Indian Air Force Cheetaks into UCAVs, I read about it ages ago but have heard little to know information about it.



The JV is well on track. Few months back there was a confirmation news report from an Israeli official that we must see the first one flying by the end of this year or early next year. He was talking about Indo-Israeli defence partnerships. Forgot where I read it.


----------



## Abingdonboy

LT.PRATEEK said:


> "Here we Go "- First of all its called NRUAV or MRUAV in Israel and its *not that we are turning old Chetak into UAV , this UAV will be newly designed machine* .
> -Only Fuselage design will be similar to chetak
> -Gearbox will be new
> -Engine will be uprated shakti engine .
> -Onboard sensors will be -Israeli IAI-supplied EL/M-2022H(V)2 multi-mode radar
> -A nose-mounted stabilised MOSP optronic turret housing a low-light-level TV camera as well as a thermal image
> -A four-element radar warning receiver developed by the DRDOs DARE lab.
> -two-way secure data links, HAL-built Mk12 Mode 5 IFF transponder, and a rear-mounted Harpoon deck-arresting gear
> -shipborne VSAT terminals and ground control stations, with the latter being a derivative of that for the Heron 2 UAV
> 
> The principal role of the MRUAV will include beyond-the-horizon surveillance, over-the-horizon targeting, ELINT, COMINT, ground mapping and location of moving ground-based targets, and airborne early warning. The MRUAV will not carry any on-board weapons for the moment, but could in future be armed with a single heavyweight torpedo or two lightweight torpedoes.
> 
> *Here is the product brochure *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *First flight is later this year*
> 
> I covered its detail in post during XINIX-Feel The UAV might series . Here is the link to that -
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53123-feel-reach-indian-uavs-2.html
> 
> Scroll down in above link and feel the ..............



why is so little known about this project though?? the LCH's maiden flight was counted down by many years before, this project seems pretty innovative and game changing yet little to know coverage?


----------



## KEETARP

*There is nothing game changing in NRUAV* -






Do you see above image 
Its been in US navy service since FY08 , and its newer version is under development , there is nothing new or better that Israel is building. US naval version is bigger + Better 

Look at NRUAV coverage area and surveillance - An AEW / E2D AWACS/ KA-31 can do even better coverage and surveillance .

Its not armed - so what possible benefit it gives us . ? ? ? . You dont hear bcoz its far from mature , how much we knew about BARAK8 2 years back ???

May be to ISRAEL and US Navy - Bcoz of shortage of Naval officers , but Indian coastal area is too big to cover by these platform , only an big platform like A50 / IL-38/Tu142 can cover it .

But India is fully committed to program and sea-trials will start this year , infact it would best suit needs of coast guard ships and offshore Patrol vessels .

And Yes our big Uncle SAM is keeping close watch on us - 
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: NorthropGrumman Tells Indian Navy, "NRUAV Not Mature, Buy FireScout Instead"
Must read this link


----------



## Abingdonboy

LT.PRATEEK said:


> *There is nothing game changing in NRUAV* -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see above image
> Its been in US navy service since FY08 , and its newer version is under development , there is nothing new or better that Israel is building. US naval version is bigger + Better
> 
> Look at NRUAV coverage area and surveillance - An AEW / E2D AWACS/ KA-31 can do even better coverage and surveillance .
> 
> Its not armed - so what possible benefit it gives us . ? ? ? . You dont hear bcoz its far from mature , how much we knew about BARAK8 2 years back ???
> 
> May be to ISRAEL and US Navy - Bcoz of shortage of Naval officers , but Indian coastal area is too big to cover by these platform , only an big platform like A50 / IL-38/Tu142 can cover it .
> 
> But India is fully committed to program and sea-trials will start this year , infact it would best suit needs of coast guard ships and offshore Patrol vessels .
> 
> And Yes our big Uncle SAM is keeping close watch on us -
> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: NorthropGrumman Tells Indian Navy, "NRUAV Not Mature, Buy FireScout Instead"
> Must read this link



why does india always do this, if an established, proven and capable product such as the fire scout is avalible and offered to india why does india chose to develop their own less capable and time consuming version?? why doesn't india just buy the fire scout??


----------



## KEETARP

> why does india always do this, if an established, proven and capable product such as the fire scout is avalible and offered to india why does india chose to develop their own less capable and time consuming version?? why doesn't india just buy the fire scout??



O boy , You then need to learn about 

CISoMA, 
EUMA , EULA
COSMEC Trojans
INS JALSHAWA restrictions

I explained it earlier on this forum as well , search a bit


----------



## Abingdonboy

LT.PRATEEK said:


> O boy , You then need to learn about
> 
> CISoMA,
> EUMA , EULA
> COSMEC Trojans
> INS JALSHAWA restrictions
> 
> I explained it earlier on this forum as well , search a bit



yes but I'm sure that the Indian govt will be wise enough to prevent these restrictions and the US won't be stupid enough to insist on these restrictions if it means the Indians won't buy them as a result. don't forget Indo-US relations have developed much since INS Jalswala incident and now the US is starting to realise the true potential of India.


----------



## praveen007

Deleted
link not working


----------



## praveen007

more


----------



## atyagi

None of your link are working..can you please post correct link


----------



## realindian

^
both links r not working


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## praveen007

corrected 2nd link is working


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## Guynextdoor

Why would we buy if we can build...


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## Guynextdoor

OK Gentlemen...may I inform you that I have SEEN the LCH MANY MANY times with mine own eyes over the last everal months....the damn thing keeps flying all around my building...


----------



## CONNAN

Guynextdoor said:


> OK Gentlemen...may I inform you that I have SEEN the LCH MANY MANY times with mine own eyes over the last everal months....the damn thing keeps flying all around my building...



next time you see it get your best cam and get a nice shot bro


----------



## Guynextdoor

connanxlrc1000 said:


> next time you see it get your best cam and get a nice shot bro


Oh I've tried with my samsung phone dude. But I can tell you, the stories from what I've seen are much more than what you'd read on the news- I knows some real spices


----------



## sirius4u

Kind enuf to throw sum light?


----------



## CONNAN

Guynextdoor said:


> Oh I've tried with my samsung phone dude. But I can tell you, the stories from what I've seen are much more than what you'd read on the news- I knows some real spices



got anythig hot bro


----------



## praveen007

just read on brf about performing of " flips, reverse flight, upside-down, and sharp turns with " with weapon load.


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## Guynextdoor

connanxlrc1000 said:


> got anythig hot bro


Ok. The HAL test centre is in Banglore in an area surrounded by lots of defence organizations (LRDE, GTRE etc.). The airstrip and hangar adjoin a lake which, on the other side adjoins a IT park with motorola, HP etc. and Mine is the first building when you look at it from HAL side and conseqently closest to the facility. Every day I see at least one ALH flying..it is ALWAYS there. I think I've also seen LCAs. 

The first time I saw LCH it was a few days after news reports of the 'hover'. This time it wasn't just hovering. It was taking one long circular flight, escorted by an ALH, starting from the strip, around the lake, the tech park and finally back. I think it was the first time it went outside the HAL campus itself. 

The second time I saw it, it was hardly eight/ten days after my first sighting. Surprisingly, there was no escort. It was on it's own and I was taken aback at the how far they had pushed it...it was taking all sorts of steep curves, dancing up and down and the pilot was flying it like one of the ALHs...not what you'd expect from a brand new heli which is hardly some 13/15 days old. This was also the time when I made my first observation about it's capabilities

a) It is agile- yes, but it is also QUIET. Why do I say so? Remember I see ALH every day. You KNOW when it flies anywhere in the sky coz it's noisy. LCH, though with the same power pack configuragtion is muffled. In fact on this occasion I pulled out my samsung corby and was waiting, looking the direction of the lake expecting it to come by when it actually crept up behind me and I didn't realize it until it was almost flying over me

b) I think for some reason the test program is highly accelerated. Y do I say that? Apart from the observation that within the first few days the heli was dancing all over the place, they are using every slot available. A few days after the above sighting, bangalore had lots of rains and showers. Trees were pulled off and I was stuck near my cigarette shop waiting for a VERY VERY nasty, almost cyclonic storm to clear out. There was a brief lull for, say, 40 mins? N I saw LCH flying then. You don't test a brand new helo in such inclement weather unless you want to really push it right? 

C) I can't make visual observations about profile and silhuette coz it is black in color. Big or small proflies- all will easily stand out to the eye when painted black 

d) Recently (last week types), I've heard a heli with the 'muffled' acoustic signature of the LCH flying in the night extensively...I'm quite sure that it's now being put through night testing

Plus, I stopeed smoking 10 days ago so all other sightings have dropped drastically

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## Kinetic

Guynextdoor said:


> OK Gentlemen...may I inform you that I have SEEN the LCH MANY MANY times with mine own eyes over the last everal months....*the damn thing keeps flying all around my building...*



Now don't tell us that you are not a member of LeT/JeM!!!  



Guynextdoor said:


> Ok. The HAL test centre is in Banglore in an area surrounded by lots of defence organizations (LRDE, GTRE etc.). The airstrip and hangar adjoin a lake which, on the other side adjoins a IT park with motorola, HP etc. and Mine is the first building when you look at it from HAL side and conseqently closest to the facility. Every day I see at least one ALH flying..it is ALWAYS there. I think I've also seen LCAs.
> 
> The first time I saw LCH it was a few days after news reports of the 'hover'. This time it wasn't just hovering. It was taking one long circular flight, escorted by an ALH, starting from the strip, around the lake, the tech park and finally back. I think it was the first time it went outside the HAL campus itself.
> 
> The second time I saw it, it was hardly eight/ten days after my first sighting. Surprisingly, there was no escort. It was on it's own and I was taken aback at the how far they had pushed it...it was taking all sorts of steep curves, dancing up and down and the pilot was flying it like one of the ALHs...not what you'd expect from a brand new heli which is hardly some 13/15 days old. This was also the time when I made my first observation about it's capabilities
> 
> a) It is agile- yes, but it is also QUIET. Why do I say so? Remember I see ALH every day. You KNOW when it flies anywhere in the sky coz it's noisy. LCH, though with the same power pack configuragtion is muffled. In fact on this occasion I pulled out my samsung corby and was waiting, looking the direction of the lake expecting it to come by when it actually crept up behind me and I didn't realize it until it was almost flying over me
> 
> b) I think for some reason the test program is highly accelerated. Y do I say that? Apart from the observation that within the first few days the heli was dancing all over the place, they are using every slot available. A few days after the above sighting, bangalore had lots of rains and showers. Trees were pulled off and I was stuck near my cigarette shop waiting for a VERY VERY nasty, almost cyclonic storm to clear out. There was a brief lull for, say, 40 mins? N I saw LCH flying then. You don't test a brand new helo in such inclement weather unless you want to really push it right?
> 
> C) I can't make visual observations about profile and silhuette coz it is black in color. Big or small proflies- all will easily stand out to the eye when painted black
> 
> d) Recently (last week types), I've heard a heli with the 'muffled' acoustic signature of the LCH flying in the night extensively...I'm quite sure that it's now being put through night testing
> 
> Plus, I stopeed smoking 10 days ago so all other sightings have dropped drastically





Excellent observation mate! Next time pls take some pic of this beast.

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## Dark Angel

*New pics expand to see them correctly*


See the weapons test are being done these days i guess

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## anathema

You really are guynextdoor to HAL  ...a very nice post.



Guynextdoor said:


> The second time I saw it, it was hardly eight/ten days after my first sighting. *Surprisingly, there was no escort. It ...not what you'd expect from a brand new heli which is hardly some 13/15 days old. This was also the time when I made my first observation about it's capabilities*



I guess that tells us that LCH has been flying much before than the actual publicized media trial.




Guynextdoor said:


> a) It is agile- yes, but it is also QUIET. Why do I say so? Remember I see ALH every day. You KNOW when it flies anywhere in the sky coz it's noisy. LCH, though with the *same power pack configuragtion *is muffled. In fact on this occasion I pulled out my samsung corby and was waiting, looking the direction of the lake expecting it to come by when it actually crept up behind me and I didn't realize it until it was almost flying over me



Not exactly -- ALH is powered by a pair of turbomecca turbo shaft engines. whereas LCH is powered by only one leading it to its lower acoustic signature when compared to ALH.


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## shrivatsa

anathema said:


> You really are guynextdoor to HAL  ...a very nice post.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that tells us that LCH has been flying much before than the actual publicized media trial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not exactly -- ALH is powered by a pair of turbomecca turbo shaft engines. whereas LCH is powered by only one leading it to its lower acoustic signature when compared to ALH.



nop it has two engines 
The Hindu Business Line : Light combat helicopter makes its debut
 G R N Somashekar 

First flight: The Light Combat Helicopter being put through the paces in Bangalore on Sunday.
Our Bureau

Bangalore, May 23

The made-in-India attack helicopter, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), whose prototype formally took to the skies on Sunday, is set for induction in four years and will place the country in a select group of nations that have similar dedicated choppers.

The Vice-Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal P.K. Barbora, who witnessed the ceremonial inaugural flight here, said Indian aviation was desperately looking for a copter like the LCH , as also some friendly nations that may want to acquire it. However, now begins the hard work for the bird, for its IOC and FOC (final operational certification) and serial production.

He cautioned that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which is developing and manufacturing the aircraft for the Armed Forces, should not repeat past mistakes and hoped that the LCH will meet all the needs of the Forces.

The agile copter can fire at ground, air and moving targets, and take part in counter-insurgency, urban warfare, escort and search and rescue operations. The development of LCH commenced in 2006. The 5.5-tonne light combat helicopter, a Rs 376-crore project, is derived from HAL's other all-purpose chopper, the Dhruv' advanced light helicopter.

The lean, black, first prototype, called the technology demonstrator or TD-1, is a two-seater that can fire up to 6 km. It is powered by two Shakti' engines made by HAL-Turbomeca joint venture and is one of the few choppers that can fly in reverse. According to Mr Ashok Nayak, Chairman, HAL , the defence enterprise expects to get initial orders for 65 LCH aircraft once it reaches the production stage. The LCH flew ceremonially for ten minutes at the old HAL airport, bringing up the rear of flight displays of other military aircraft. The Secretary, Defence Production, Mr R.K. Singh, and services brass witnessed the show.

The Defence Minister, Mr A.K.Antony, his Deputy, Mr Pallam Raju, and the Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal P.V.Naik, cancelled their visit to the event in the aftermath of an Air India plane's crash at Mangalore on Saturday

According to Mr Singh, Such indigenous capability has strategic and economic benefits. Every time you show such a machine, you make a strong statement to the world. HAL's other joint product, the light combat aircraft, Tejas, was on course to getting its IOC by December 2010 and may take two more years to be inducted into the Air Force.

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## anathema

shrivatsa said:


> nop it has two engines
> .



I think you are right ! I might have got it confused with LUH. 

Hang on , i will do some googling and lets see what i come up with...


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## shrivatsa

these may help you

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S_mS3GN7ZAI/AAAAAAAAKdU/xgo3pyHb6Sg/s1600/P1010158-759624.JPG

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## navtrek




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## gogbot

^^^^^

Interesting points of note

*LCH is the lightest helicopter on that list(contrary to the media claims on it being overweight)


*LCH has the Highest service celling 6500m , with a close second being the AH-64 Apache Longbow with a service Ceiling of only 100m less than the LCH , meaning 6400M(AH64 May be the best Heli to complement our LCH


*LCH has the Lowest max speed 

*LCH has the Third Highest range at 700KM


*LCH has the Third Highest payload at 3400 Kg, despite being touted as a light combat helicopter , it does supremely well in this category.




> Full list of Payload's
> AH-64 - 5268 kg
> 
> MI-28 - 4210 kg
> 
> LCH - 3400 kg
> 
> KA-50 - 3000 kg
> 
> Euro - 2940 kg
> 
> SuperCobra- 2800 kg
> 
> AW-129 - 2079 kg



___________________________________________________________

Over all LCH is solid, good aircraft in comparison.

It is the lightest Helicopter on the list , it can carry far more than any other helicopter that can be classified as light or even medium. with the third highest payload.

Has the highest service ceiling of any the helicopters.

When it comes to range , the LCH has the third highest range on the list, it trumps the ranges of both the heavy attack helicopters(AH-64 an Mi-28) which could carry more then the LCH. LCH is turn is only beaten by helicopters that could carry less payload then the LCH. All is all one could say , the LCH has found a proper balance between Payload and range. With range of 700Km , it's more than just good.

Speed is the only factor where the LCH seem's to have conceded everything on. 
with a top speed of only 275Km per hour , it is the slowest on the list. This of course has a negative consequence on rapid response or pursuit situations. When compared with the AH-12 SC with a top seed of the 411km , the disparity can be staggering. But other helicopter , especially lighter ones , don't go past the 300KM mark. And other heavier helicopters don't go beyond 390km. So the Top speed of the LCH can at least maintain pace , with most of these heli's . But Speed is not as important a factor as the rest , and this dis-advantage not the most concerning.


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## jha

^^^ SC does not carry more imo ..it carries ~2800 kg. of ammunitions
while LCH carries around 3400 kg...(compare that with ~5000 kg. of apache )
.it lacks speed no doubt.. (HAL should work on that )..

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## Kinetic

gogbot said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Interesting points of note
> 
> *LCH is the Second lightest helicopter on that list , losing out to the AW-129 Mangusta


Its not second but lightest attack chopper. AW-129 has an empty weight of 2530 kg while LCH is 2250 kg. 



> Over all LCH does alight for being a helicopter of its class.



Not just alight but better. 



> But disappointingly, It does not fair very well against the Super cobra



!!!!!


> LCH can go longer and Higher then The SC. But SC is faster and it can carry more.



Range, altitude and weapons load matter much more than speed. How SC can carry more??? LCH can carry 3450 kg of weapons while SC can carry 2810 kg. 



> On top of that , LCH only has 400M advantage in service ceiling over the SC


Thats a huge advantage for operating at northern region. 'just' 400 km?!!!! LCH already the highest ceiling attack chopper, thats also a huge technological achievement. 



> And the LCH only has a 15 KM advantage over the range of the SC.
> 
> the SC on the other hand , has an empty weight proportional to the max weight of the LCH



Considering SC's weight is more than double than that of LCH its an advantage for LCH. 



> And has a max Speed of 136 km more than the LCH Max speed.



That is an advantage SC has but this doesn't make it superior. 



> All in all it has decent showing compared to the rest.
> 
> Currently , our neighbour Pakistan only has Cobra heli's and not SC , so the LCH can still be the top dog in the region for a while at least.



Above all LCH is much more stealthier than SC. 

Yes Pakistan doesn't have SC but I think its matter of time that Pakistan will get SC and F-35. China also has a good attack chopper programme. So we should be prepared.

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## gogbot

jha said:


> ^^^ SC does not carry more imo ..it carries ~2800 kg. of ammunitions
> while LCH carries around 3400 kg...(compare that with ~5000 kg. of apache )
> .it lacks speed no doubt.. (HAL should work on that )..





Kinetic said:


> Its not second but lightest attack chopper. AW-129 has an empty weight of 2530 kg while LCH is 2250 kg.
> 
> How SC can carry more??? LCH can carry 3450 kg of weapons while SC can carry 2810 kg.



Thanks to the both of you or correcting me  , i guess i did not read the wieght properly, i have re-written my post with the correct info now.



Kinetic said:


> Range, altitude and weapons load matter much more than speed.



Agreed



Kinetic said:


> Thats a huge advantage for operating at northern region. 'just' 400 km?!!!! LCH already the highest ceiling attack chopper, thats also a huge technological achievement.



its 400 M not 400 Km.
I am implying that the SC can go to almost as many places as the LCH,



Kinetic said:


> That is an advantage SC has but this doesn't make it superior.



I never said that , i only said it was an advantage



Kinetic said:


> Above all LCH is much more stealthier than SC.



I don't really believe that , Just because the LCH looks sleeker , does not mean it is stealthy in many meaningful way. i mean it has giant rotating blades, how can anything be stealthy with something like that.

Sure you can say it is stealthier, but that's like comparing a grain of sand to two grains of sand , and saying i have more.



Kinetic said:


> Yes Pakistan doesn't have SC but I think its matter of time that Pakistan will get SC and F-35.



Sure when the US lets them.

F-35 lines will be busy well into the 2020 , unless they make a large order they wont get them any sooner.

AH-12 SC , may be possible , but that is still at least 5 years away.
By Them we may have AH-64 Apache Longbows , with large number of LCH.



Kinetic said:


> China also has a good attack chopper programme. So we should be prepared.



Well aware , but all we can do is keep working on our own projects.
But since we can add foreign sub-systems to out choppers , we have have an Edge


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## gowthamraj

I strongly feel lch iS better than cobra


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## Kinetic

gogbot said:


> its 400 M not 400 Km.
> I am implying that the SC can go to almost as many places as the LCH,



Ohhh sorry that was an unintentional mistake! 

how SC can go to as many places as the LCH? It can't go beyond 6100 m. 




> I never said that , i only said it was an advantage



Actually this is the only advantage SC has over LCH. So as you mentioned... "But disappointingly, It does not fair very well against the Super cobra"..... I thought this is the reason... speed... 





> I don't really believe that , Just because the LCH looks sleeker , does not mean it is stealthy in many meaningful way. i mean it has giant rotating blades, how can anything be stealthy with something like that.



Comparing SC with LCH regrading stealth feature is just comparing Mig-35 with PAK FA. Mig-35 is way larger than PAK FA but is it stealhy? NO. Simply larger blades doesn't mean that LCH compromises its stealth features. They also shaped the blades specially to reduce detectability. 



> Sure you can say it is stealthier, but that's like comparing a grain of sand to two grains of sand , and saying i have more.



LCH is not just stealthier but way stealthier. Say, if SC is a F-16 B52 than LCH is F-35. *SC doesn't come close in this field atleast. *























> Sure when the US lets them.
> 
> 
> F-35 lines will be busy well into the 2020 , unless they make a large order they wont get them any sooner.



Its just matter of time. US will give them SC and F-35. They are playing very nasty game regarding India, China, Pakistan and terrorism. 



> AH-12 SC , may be possible , but that is still at least 5 years away.
> By Them we may have AH-64 Apache Longbows , with large number of LCH.



We have another adversary to face. One cannot just face larger enemy with huge resources and smaller enemy being equipped by other powers at the same time. Thats why I said we should be prepared. 22 Apache Longbow will not make any change in front of large number of SC fielded by Pakistan while LCH might be fighting against Chinese. I am comparing here in the view of so called military balance that US thinks regarding India-Pakistan-China. 



> Well aware , but all we can do is keep working on our own projects.
> But since we can add foreign sub-systems to out choppers , we have have an Edge



Yes we can, but US aided Pakistan and economically strong China will field much larger number of choppers against us. So need huge technological advantage. LCH is the right direction.


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## jha

^^ I have no idea how a chopper can be stealth..Anyways it being stealth will nto have that effect because it will not be used for A2A role...the main role will be destroying the tanks imo..however my knowledge in this field is very limited...
Regarding no. of Apache, i believe we should have gone for atleast 50 of these to create some punch..or, maybe the no. will be increased as per our habit...


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## Kinetic

jha said:


> ^^ I have no idea how a chopper can be stealth..


It can. Just google Comache...








> Anyways it being stealth will nto have that effect because it will not be used for A2A role...the main role will be destroying the tanks imo..however my knowledge in this field is very limited...



Than why our LCH armed with A-to-A missiles?!!! Its not just to destroy other choppers. Stealth is a huge advantage for chopper which can evade ground based radars at longer ranges but still attacks the target. 



> Regarding no. of Apache, i believe we should have gone for atleast 50 of these to create some punch..or, maybe the no. will be increased as per our habit...



Agreed we need more like Apache not just 22. But its way more costly than LCH. So its better to mass produce LCH in larger number.


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## Dash

> Than why our LCH armed with A-to-A missiles?!!! Its not just to destroy other choppers. Stealth is a huge advantage for chopper which can evade ground based radars at longer ranges but still attacks the target.



Kinetic -
Which is the A2A missile load out on LCH? and as of now they are only thinking of adding A2A.
Even MQ1predators, and Apache were supposed to have Sidewinders as well. But have they been added so far?....


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## Just Yash

areee bhai Nam Kab Rakhne wale he?

I dont like to call this beast LCH!!!


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## KEETARP

Dash said:


> Kinetic -
> Which is the A2A missile load out on LCH? and as of now they are only thinking of adding A2A.
> Even MQ1predators, and Apache were supposed to have Sidewinders as well. But have they been added so far?....



For the time being 
Mistral A2A missile , 
Mistral ATAM is tried and tested against hostile helos and UAV 
It was tested on Dhruv WSI version as well .






Image is of dhruv , you can see that "Tiger" design pattern . And the Mistral

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/ref/scripts/EN_Mistral-Atam_122.html

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/docs_wsw/fichiers_communs/docs/pdf07_mistralatam.pdf


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## Dash

PRATEEK said:


> For the time being
> Mistral A2A missile ,
> Mistral ATAM is tried and tested against hostile helos and UAV
> It was tested on Dhruv WSI version as well .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image is of dhruv , you can see that "Tiger" design pattern . And the Mistral
> 
> Mistral Atam missile, air missile defense, air to air missile. MBDA
> 
> http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/docs_wsw/fichiers_communs/docs/pdf07_mistralatam.pdf


Thanks Prateek -

Thats what i said, that only tests are happening on European and Amercan Combat helos.

So you are saying LCH has used and tested Mistral? We are not even sure which ATGM it will carry, thinking Helina is a at least 2-3 years away.

Do you know which ATGM Dhruv carries?.


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## KEETARP

> So you are saying LCH has used and tested Mistral?



Dash Ji , 
I said WSI Dhruv , not LCH .



> Thats what i said, that only tests are happening on European and Amercan Combat helos



Weaponed dhruv did same - A2A firing of Mistral .

*And only TD-2 of LCH will be used for Weapon trials *, which is yet to see the Indian skies . May be by end of 2010 



> Do you know which ATGM Dhruv carries?



LAHAT was used in trials . No update whether trials are over or not . 
Once it is inducted officialy - Col Shukla will help us


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## KEETARP

Yup Got it , 






*Dhruv with MISTRAL * above

Dhruv with LAHAT below two 









All courtsey - Paris air show site 
PARIS AIR SHOW

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## Kinetic

^^^ I think along with LAHAT, *HELINA* will be there for WSI Dhruv and LCH. 


Dash, I think Prateek sir replied your queries better than me.


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## Dash

Yeah, that cleared the doubt.
I was under the impression after seeing a LCH mock up, a missile which said MBDA. I thought its brimestone ATGM for LCH though.

So that was MBDA mistral.


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## Kinetic

Two pics of LCH... (front view) 

Source: H Nair

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## KS

What happened to the LCH..? what phase of testing it is in now.?

Any news..anybody.? Especially Bangaloreans.


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## ISRO Go!

Kinetic said:


> Two pics of LCH... (front view)
> 
> Source: H Nair



i love LCH,they are cool guys


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## Water Car Engineer

When is the induction of the LCH? And when is the next prototype going to fly?


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## Water Car Engineer

Nice video


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## gowthamraj

Hot shot

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## gowthamraj

Still no flight of second one


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## angeldemon_007

I must say HAL has achieved a great success by developing a world class fighting helicopter like LCH and even Dhruv is also a decent helo. I saw some1 comparing israel's modified black hawk and lch. Now Indian army is on a spree of inducting some attacking and some medium helicopter so as to carry special ops and i believe *** a goodwill to IAF they will induct LCH and dhruv for those purposes. In my opinion, as a fan of defense machines like Black Hawk, I think India should go for them because of following reasons :
1) I think every1 would admit that they are the most suitable helicopter for special operations plus they can carry more than Dhruv and they can be very lethal.

2) Sircosky has decided to shift its entire manufacturing unit to India even if India decides to purchase 60+ helos.
Sikorsky Plans to Make Black Hawk in India - WSJ.com
As many of you know that Sirkosky has tie up with Tata and if India purchases black hawk, then they will manufacture helos from upcoming aerospace Tata SEZ in Andhra.

3) Somebody talked about high cost and maintance. 
1 black hawk=14 million $ (both attack and medium helos)
1 dhruv = 9.08 million $
1 LCH = ???? (but i still think it wont be around 14- 9.08=4.92million $)

4) Even Sirkosky claims that they could fit black hawk with higher power engine for higher altitude location in India like Ladhakh.

5) I am sure HAL's Dhruv and LCH is a success but we have to admit black hawk is a beauty. Hal should continue to work in this field but in case of nations security we should not compromise like this. Dhruv can be used for many other purposes like in civilian cases, air ambulance, fire fighter etc. 

6) Dhruv and LCH were made keeping in view of high altitude locations like leh and ladakh but in a country like India with such a great geographical diversity with problems like naxalites and floods every year, we should consider buying them. 
Indian army is worlds secoond biggest army and ironically we operate only around 200 helos (source wiki). India should buy black hawk even for its special forces like nsg, garud, marcos, Para Commandos, ssg etc. If black hawk cannot manage to work at high altitudes like leh then we can buy 20, 20 LCH and Dhruv for those purposes. But apart from this I think India should go for these multi-purpose beauties. (Also India is the only country after US to manufacture them and that too will be our TATA)
Feel free to comment...


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## angeldemon_007

Indian army is looking for 197 helicopters and if any of you had seen the tender then the helos competing for those orders look just like our dhruv. I dont know what army is looking for ??/ Seriously why they are going for such a tender ?? What army will carry in light helicopters ??/
I cant understand why they cant go for helos like black hawk when they are offered ?/ An army which operates only around 200 helos at present, if they are going for 197 this kind of helos then I think its a waste of money.

In my opinion they should use :
# 200 black hawk(they can also carry stuff ie. they can work as dhruv's replacement)
# 100 lch (i know i was against but they are really light and might be useful in some locations + a good advanced machine).
# 12 heavy lift Chinook helos ordered(Number must be increased to 50)
# 24 Apache attack helos ordered(number must be increased to 50)
# 50 Dhruv(I know i dont agree but still our army can have 50 of them)
Apart from this around 100 black hawks for paramilitary forces fighting against naxalite in case of quick mobalisation or even evacuation and NSG especially for operations like in 26/11.

In short Indian army has to increase its air power based on its size and i think they should go for black hawks as they are the best helos.


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## Kinetic

Ecuadorian air force (FAE) officials on board LCH. Found this pic on Militaryphotos.net forum on the Ecuadorian Armed Forces pics thread. Via: BR






*HAL chairman said that FAE is extremely happy with the performance of Dhruv and may order more. Malaysian and Indonesian forces may order Dhruv as well. But HAL's primary target is to meet the requirements of Indian armed forces. They are expanding the production line to 38 Dhruv per year for Indian armed forces only. Other export oriented and non-miltary orders will get extra production facilities. State govts and other public/private companies also ordered Dhruv. *


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## Abingdonboy

Kinetic said:


> Ecuadorian air force (FAE) officials on board LCH. Found this pic on Militaryphotos.net forum on the Ecuadorian Armed Forces pics thread. Via: BR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *HAL chairman said that FAE is extremely happy with the performance of Dhruv and may order more. Malaysian and Indonesian air forces may order Dhruv. But HAL's primary target is to meet the requirements of Indian armed forces. They have expanding the production line to 38 Dhruv per year for Indian armed forces. Other export oriented orders will get extra production facilities. State govts and other private companies also ordered Dhruv. *




HMMMM.. very interesting, it seems they are happy with the Dhruv, so is the LCH the next obvious export to them??


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## tallboy123

First flight of LCH with weapon on Aero India feb 2011


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## Kinetic

Abingdonboy said:


> HMMMM.. very interesting, it seems they are happy with the Dhruv, so is the LCH the next obvious export to them??



Yes they are happy with Dhruv but I don't think they need or can afford LCH. Instead they should better go for WSI Dhruv.


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## angeldemon_007

I never understood why are we going for light version of every thing ??/ I mean i checked out comparison of dhruv with rest of its competitor and Dhruv is at a respectable level. But when i looked at the comparison between attack helicopters LCH is not that good. 
I mean there are choppers which can fly much above LCH, which can carry more weapons and specially all of them had higher speed than LCH. I hope HAL should seriously consider to increase the speed of LCH which is now 275 while rest of its competitor range from 325-400 kmph.


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## satishkumarcsc

angeldemon_007 said:


> I never understood why are we going for light version of every thing ??/ I mean i checked out comparison of dhruv with rest of its competitor and Dhruv is at a respectable level. But when i looked at the comparison between attack helicopters LCH is not that good.
> I mean there are choppers which can fly much above LCH, which can carry more weapons and specially all of them had higher speed than LCH. I hope HAL should seriously consider to increase the speed of LCH which is now 275 while rest of its competitor range from 325-400 kmph.


 






I dont think it compares that bad in it's weight class namely the Aw 129 Mangusta.

And at 6500m service ceiling it is the best we can get.

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## Kinetic

More pics of LCH-TD2
Pics: Ajai Shukla

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## angeldemon_007

> I dont think it compares that bad in it's weight class namely the Aw 129 Mangusta.
> 
> And at 6500m service ceiling it is the best we can get.


Agreed to some extent. I just hope the speed is increased to around 350 kmph.


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## Water Car Engineer

* LCH AT AERO INDIA 2011!!*

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Raj4213

Kinetic said:


> Two pics of LCH... (front view)
> 
> Source: H Nair


 
looking at this baby, the body is made up of various cross-sections which would rebounce the radar waves in a different direction seems to make it hard for the radar tracker to detect this.

it is not having a smooth curved surface like the dhruv. there seems to be more to stealth than for jamming circuitry.


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## rockstarIN

satishkumarcsc said:


> I dont think it compares that bad in it's weight class namely the Aw 129 Mangusta.
> 
> And at 6500m service ceiling it is the best we can get.


 
What about the price comparison? how much LCH cost in compared to its peers? Any export hopes?


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## elite

Kinetic said:


> Yes they are happy with Dhruv but I don't think they need or can afford LCH. Instead they should better go for WSI Dhruv.



Dhruv is in different class and LCH is in different class. Both platform should not be mixed up.

IMO IAF need at least 60 LCH. Because attack helicopter is necessary for every great AF. Dont think that IAF cant afford it. When they decide to operate 300 Su-30MKI; Whats the problem with operating 60 LCH??????!!!!!!!!!!! It will be an asset for IAF in neer future.

60 LCH + 22 Apache = 

WSI dhruv can be shot down by a cobra helicopter in no time. Whereas LCH will give Apache and cobra a run for it.

So IAF should procure WSI dhruv in small numbers i.e. 40 max. We must think that WSI dhruv is a testing platform and LCH is the implementation platform.

So ultimately 40 WSI Dhruv + 60 LCH + 22 Apache =


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## SpArK

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/TVEJ6q3I_DI/AAAAAAAADkk/XUTufmdGxxg/s1600/005.jpg


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## SpArK




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## Skull and Bones

other than the top speed part, everything is quite respectable.


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## Water Car Engineer

That camo is so f$@%in ugly....


----------



## duhastmish

*What the frrgghhh is that thing on lch ? 


these guys need to learn a lesson or two about painting their machine. *

and they say indian just paint the overseas product and claim thm to be their own. 

look at this ----- this paint look like some gslv threw up on lch. after too many Saturday night drinks.


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## Lord Of Gondor

duhastmish said:


> *What the frrgghhh is that thing on lch ?
> 
> 
> these guys need to learn a lesson or two about painting their machine. *
> 
> and they say indian just paint the overseas product and claim thm to be their own.
> 
> look at this ----- this paint look like some gslv threw up on lch. after too many Saturday night drinks.


 
Wow!!!!I thought that it was covered with a cloth!!!!LOL


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Man that kinda killed it for me. What were those guys in HAL smoking to come up with that camo....


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## IndianArmy

whats wrong with camo, or may I call digi camo???


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## sudhir007



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## Kinetic

duhastmish said:


> *What the frrgghhh is that thing on lch ?
> 
> 
> these guys need to learn a lesson or two about painting their machine. *
> 
> and they say indian just paint the overseas product and claim thm to be their own.
> 
> look at this ----- this paint look like some gslv threw up on lch. after too many Saturday night drinks.


 
and Liquid, IAF will not induct the chopper only on looks. This digital camo is extremely needed for low observability. This is part of LCH's capabilities.


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## GORKHALI

I love the Camo !! Its the digi camo... And itz really loking good at when you see this monster flying by your own eyes !!


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## Water Car Engineer

Kinetic said:


> and Liquid, IAF will not induct the chopper only on looks. *This digital camo is extremely needed for low observability*. This is part of LCH's capabilities.


 
Ya, right... That sh*t is trying to look cool, but it failed... Failed badly..


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## Water Car Engineer




----------



## Dalai Lama

Liquid said:


> Ya, right... That sh*t is trying to look cool, but it failed... Failed badly..



Liquid don't worry, when it's finally inducted it will probably be painted grey or black. I think grey is what they have found to be the best camouflage for aircraft in general.


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## Roybot

I personally think that new camo on the LCH looks pretty epic. I hope they keep it. They should really come up with a name for this beast now.


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## Kinetic

Liquid said:


> Ya, right... That sh*t is *trying to look* cool, but it failed... Failed badly..


 
As I said it doesn't depend whether it looks cool or not but what we need. This camo will give LCH low observability. But I have to say that it doesn't look bad but 'cool'. lol


----------



## SR 71 Blackbird

I think they are trying to apply digi camo of the upgraded Challenger 2 MBT.


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## Kinetic

Another good pic of the LCH....... they are mounting the gun...


----------



## kingdurgaking

People who dislike the camouflage ... have to understand it is not for closer look... when you see the same from an altitude it will surely yield what is needed.. especially in snow areas and best bet for dry forest


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## Obambam

Personally, I don't agree with the use of excessive camouflage for LCH. They are not designed to transport military personels and most of the time it would be up in the air if not grounded at base. How often will it be landing by dry forests or in an urban area etc? Not very likely at all. I see very little benefit from it, although I do agree with the phrase "every little helps".


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## kingdurgaking

Obambam said:


> Personally, I don't agree with the use of excessive camouflage for LCH. They are not designed to transport military personels and most of the time it would be up in the air if not grounded at base. How often will it be landing by dry forests or in an urban area etc? Not very likely at all. I see very little benefit from it, although I do agree with the phrase "every little helps".


 
Oke dry forest i mean by desert.... the current one suits both snow and desert areas.... and when the helios is around the over desert or snow it is difficult to be seen via binocular or satellite or any other spy mechanism.. secondly this is a technology which has been matured and tested and it can provide different shades as per the area of operation..


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## qwerrty

> *LCH has the Third Highest payload at 3400 Kg, despite being touted as a light combat helicopter , it does supremely well in this category.



where do you guys get that bs number from? 
all the attack made so far, none capable of carrying load more than its own empty weight. someone must be counting weapon load + pilots, fuel, and other equipments too.lol


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## unicorn148

qwerrty said:


> where do you guys get that bs number from?
> all the attack made so far, none capable of carrying load more than its own empty weight. someone must be counting weapon load + pilots, fuel, and other equipments too.lol


No the load it can take other than fuel and equipment is 3000KG not only that its also having the best service ceiling and rate of climb

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## Black Widow

// I never understood why are we going for light version of every thing ??/ I mean i checked out comparison of dhruv with rest of its competitor and Dhruv is at a respectable level. But when i looked at the comparison between attack helicopters LCH is not that good.
I mean there are choppers which can fly much above LCH, which can carry more weapons and specially all of them had higher speed than LCH. I hope HAL should seriously consider to increase the speed of LCH which is now 275 while rest of its competitor range from 325-400 kmph. 

//

Why light Version: What do you think where the war will happen in coming year?? Isn't it Mountains of Himalya??? keeping that into mind We are equipping ourself with such arms which are operational at heights. Dhruv, LCA, LCH, Tank-ex all are made keeping Mountain/High altitude in Mind.

There are very few Combat Helos which can fly at that altitude, they are not made for it.

@speed: why you want great speed for a helo??? use fighter plane instead, The speed can be increased once improved shakti engine will come, the improved engine will enhance service ceiling as well

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## tallboy123

angeldemon_007 said:


> I never understood why are we going for light version of every thing ??/ I mean i checked out comparison of dhruv with rest of its competitor and Dhruv is at a respectable level. But when i looked at the comparison between attack helicopters LCH is not that good.
> I mean there are choppers which can fly much above LCH, which can carry more weapons and specially all of them had higher speed than LCH. I hope HAL should seriously consider to increase the speed of LCH which is now 275 while rest of its competitor range from 325-400 kmph.


mate,we would fight wars on very low altitude,we have to fight war at the himalaya and tibet..
so our aircrafts should have very high service ceiling,so
LCA,LCH....
and Light weight tanker,so that we can transport more number of our light weight tanker with the help of C-130 and C-17's.....
the more height we get from LCA and LCH the more good it is...


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## Roybot

qwerrty said:


> where do you guys get that bs number from?
> all the attack made so far, none capable of carrying load more than its own empty weight. someone must be counting weapon load + pilots, fuel, and other equipments too.lol


 
Do yourself a favor and gather some info before you start blabbering and start your smartarsery.. You only make yourself look like a fail troll. Have a look at the chart posted earlier in this thread on page 26. 
Heres a link for your convenience 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ght-combat-helicopter-lch-26.html#post1466764

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## qwerrty

unicorn148 said:


> No the load it can take other than fuel and equipment is 3000KG not only that its also having the best service ceiling and rate of climb


 
that make no sense. go look at other helicopters specs with 5 blades and powerful engines, all carrying weapon load less than its empty weight. think about it! 

all the pics we've seen so far looks like LAH can carry the least load compare to other attack choppers, not like claimed here..


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## ashok321

qwerrty said:


> that make no sense. go look at other helicopters specs with 5 blades and powerful engines, all carrying weapon load less than its empty weight. think about it!
> 
> all the pics we've seen so far looks like LAH can carry the least load compare to other attack choppers, not like claimed here..


 
Chinook:

Empty weight: 23,400 lb (10,185 kg)
Loaded weight: 26,680 lb (12,100 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 50,000 lb (22,680 kg)

AH-64
Empty weight: 11,387 lb (5,165 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 23,000 lb (10,433 kg)


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## Black Widow

qwerrty said:


> that make no sense. go look at other helicopters specs with 5 blades and powerful engines, all carrying weapon load less than its empty weight. think about it!
> 
> all the pics we've seen so far looks like LAH can carry the least load compare to other attack choppers, not like claimed here..



Thats where its compromise with speed. Look at the data. For your convenience I will compare tech specs of Tiger and LCH..
Tiger 3000/6000 LCH 2300/5700 (Empty wght/MTOW) Engine approx 1200 HP for both. speed 275 and 290. Range 800km and 700 km.. Infact Tiiger is best but It has not service ceiling what we want... Hope it serve ur appetite...

Ashok: Chinook is totally different thing, please don't compare apple with orange... Eurocopter Tiger is best Example to compare..

And finally: There can be variance of 5% ...


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## qwerrty

Black Widow said:


> Thats where its compromise with speed. Look at the data. For your convenience I will compare tech specs of Tiger and LCH..
> Tiger 3000/6000 LCH 2300/5700 (Empty wght/MTOW) Engine approx 1200 HP for both. speed 275 and 290. Range 800km and 700 km.. Infact Tiiger is best but It has not service ceiling what we want... Hope it serve ur appetite...
> 
> Ashok: Chinook is totally different thing, please don't compare apple with orange... Eurocopter Tiger is best Example to compare..
> 
> And finally: There can be variance of 5% ...


 

still, the number is fishy because if you add all up including: fuel, crews, and other heavy equipments..the weight would exceeding the MTOW.how is that possible to fly if 3000kg is weapon load as claimed here..?


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


>


 
Nice find Sudhir!

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## KS

The camo is freakeen awesome !!!

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## Kinetic

Aero India staring from tomorrow, will be waiting for some decent videos of LCA and LCH.


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## Black Widow

ashok321 said:


> Chinook:
> 
> Empty weight: 23,400 lb (10,185 kg)
> Loaded weight: 26,680 lb (12,100 kg)
> Max takeoff weight: 50,000 lb (22,680 kg)
> 
> AH-64
> Empty weight: 11,387 lb (5,165 kg)
> Max takeoff weight: 23,000 lb (10,433 kg)


 


qwerrty said:


> still, the number is fishy because if you add all up including: fuel, crews, and other heavy equipments..the weight would exceeding the MTOW.how is that possible to fly if 3000kg is weapon load as claimed here..?


 
3000 KG Eurocoptor tiger can have MTOW 6000kg, you don have problem with that, but when we said 2300 KG LCH can have MTOW 5600, you smell something...

Paranoia.

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## shree835

shchinese said:


> Arjun is a failure, this is called FACT. LCA have been in development for more than 25 years, but still in the laughable "testing" phase. this is called *failure*. based on such recent R&D record, LCH has very high chance to be another BIG failure.
> 
> I am a strong believer that not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, your projects in the past 20-30 years have successfully proved that India is just one of those nations.
> 
> On the other hand, Pakistan is so different, you see new MBTs and fighters got designed by joint projects with different countries, sure it is still not 100% designed in Pak, but I can clearly see the trend. What you have on hand?
> 
> LCA's engine (which is far simple than the WS-10A used in J-10/J-11B) can't be designed in India, seeking foreign helps now, arjun received numerous foreign helps, but still failure. tell me why?
> 
> because not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, however we now have this LCH joke again.


 

And again Chinese Uwach...With Govt. Controlled Media...Govt. Controlled Internet...and so long list... A simple question...Why a so called Immortal fighter JF-17 is not part of Chinese Air force.

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## Abingdonboy

shchinese said:


> Arjun is a failure, this is called FACT. LCA have been in development for more than 25 years, but still in the laughable "testing" phase. this is called *failure*. based on such recent R&D record, LCH has very high chance to be another BIG failure.
> 
> I am a strong believer that not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, your projects in the past 20-30 years have successfully proved that India is just one of those nations.
> 
> On the other hand, Pakistan is so different, you see new MBTs and fighters got designed by joint projects with different countries, sure it is still not 100% designed in Pak, but I can clearly see the trend. What you have on hand?
> 
> LCA's engine (which is far simple than the WS-10A used in J-10/J-11B) can't be designed in India, seeking foreign helps now, arjun received numerous foreign helps, but still failure. tell me why?
> 
> because not every nation is capable of building modern weapons, however we now have this LCH joke again.


 
You are joking right, Pakistan can't even design and make their own car let alone modern plane (I think they have other things on their mind at the moment) this is their first attempt at a helicopter that took to the skies a few weeks ago:







As for China they rip-off tech other countries have spent time and money on and write "MADE IN CHINA" ON AND CLAIM IT THEIR OWN!


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## Roybot

Guys Schinese was a troll who has been banned a while ago, so no point replying to his posts now, its only going to attract more trolls.

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## jha

*Magellan Aerospace to Develop Wire Strike Protection System for HAL Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters*

Magellan Aerospace announced today an agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore, India for a new Wire Strike Protection System. The agreement includes the design and development of a WSPS for the HAL Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), which will be carried out at Magellan's Bristol Aerospace division in Winnipeg in 2011. Bristol is the global expert for this unique system, offering a proven design and acknowledged technological expertise.

The AHL system is comprised of an upper and lower cutter, and windshield deflector, designed by Bristol to be integrated into the unique structure of the ALH. Mr. Don Boitson, Vice President and General Manager, Bristol Aerospace, commented, "We have been making and delivering WSPS kits since 1980, and are delighted to have HAL join our family of global customers."

Mr. Ashok Nayak, Chairman of HAL said, "This contract between us for design and development of a Wire Strike Protection System is strategically an imperative for our future business growth and we acknowledge the potential of Magellan Aerospace and HAL with this program".

In 1977 Bristol, with the Canadian Forces, designed the WSPS to provide a measure of protection for helicopters to the potentially devastating consequences of inadvertent encounters with horizontally strung wires and cables.

In 2009, a milestone was reached with the delivery of the 20,000th Wire Strike Protection System (WSPS®) kit. More than 65 models of WSPS have been developed for commercial and military customers around the world, and new systems continue to be designed for the new helicopter developments that are increasing in size and complexity.


Magellan Aerospace to Develop Wire Strike Protection System for HAL Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters | India Defence


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## Lala_Peace

Looking quite ferocious...


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## jha

A very good video by Flightglobal ..

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## Kinetic

LCH nose vertically down... so close to the ground!!

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## ajtr

Irony is LCH,LCA etc are light only in name they exceed their planned weight.

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## Obambam

jha said:


> A very good video by Flightglobal ..


 
It would have been better without the Jai Ho (Slum Dog Millionaire) song that was playing in the background. It is over used and kind of ruins the video. Nevertheless, great chopper.


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## Kinetic

Obambam said:


> It would have been better without the Jai Ho (Slum Dog Millionaire) song that was playing in the background. It is over used and kind of ruins the video. Nevertheless, great chopper.


 
500% agreed. Its highly overused and now became highly boring.

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## blackops

I want to see it smoking its guns out


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## Skull and Bones

ajtr said:


> *Irony is LCH,LCA etc are light only in name they exceed their planned weight.*


 
It will be quite helpful if you provide your thought along with some credible source or it will be considered as *trolling*


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## tallboy123

Guys i think Lch's landing gear can be retracted and closed right...?


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## Lord Of Gondor

tallboy123 said:


> Guys i think Lch's landing gear can be retracted and closed right...?


I don't think so.........


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## Whiplash

tallboy123 said:


> Guys i think Lch's landing gear can be retracted and closed right...?


 
Negative
I doubt any combat helo can do that.


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## tallboy123

Whiplash said:


> Negative
> I doubt any combat helo can do that.


 
i didnt mean it will be fully enclosed inside the body of LCH,
i said the landing gear which is vertical when landed,will be pulled back and made horizontal in air..


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## Kinetic

tallboy123 said:


> i didnt mean it will be fully enclosed inside the body of LCH,
> i said the landing gear which is vertical when landed,will be pulled back and made horizontal in air..


 
They are static with hydro suspensions. But need not be worried about drag and RCS because they are taking care of these issues.

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## Kinetic

Two more pics of LCH from BR....

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## Water Car Engineer

^^^^^^^^

Are they dummy weapons?


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## Kinetic

Liquid said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Are they dummy weapons?


 
No, real.


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## Water Car Engineer

Kinetic said:


> No, real.


 



I just want to see them fire it!!


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## tallboy123

Liquid said:


> I just want to see them fire it!!



I want to see it bomb......

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## Water Car Engineer



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## qwerrty

Black Widow said:


> 3000 KG Eurocoptor tiger can have MTOW 6000kg, you don have problem with that, but when we said 2300 KG LCH can have MTOW 5600, you smell something...
> 
> Paranoia.



lol just common sense..

eurocopter tiger total mission weigh is only 5,400kg below 6000kg MTOW and it's a 3000kg helicopter.

LCH, 2300kg empty + 3000kg weapons, not include other weights which if added would equal or exceed its maximum allowable weight limit for takeoff, 5600kg. that is way over weight for a 2300kg structure can handle. you can believe whatever you want, that number just doesn't add up. 
you can forget the specs for range, speed, and altitude..blabla on that paper ads too, if the above mission loaded weight is true..haha

all the attack choppers made so far has total loaded weight below its MTOW and weapon load lighter than its empty structure..lol


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## Water Car Engineer




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## Trichy

Liquid said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Are they dummy weapons?





Liquid said:


> I just want to see them fire it!!


 


tallboy123 said:


> I want to see it bomb......


 
It cant do it as of now, due to weapons or not intergrated on 1st prototype, second only going to fit with weapons. still it is not ready yet!!!


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## GORKHALI

Meet The Monster

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## Kinetic

Trichy said:


> It cant do it as of now, *due to weapons or not intergrated on 1st prototype*, second only going to fit with weapons. still it is not ready yet!!!


 
Weapons are integrated but only for LCH flight test purposes. TD-2 will start weapon test trial by third or fourth quarter of this year.


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## KS

Liquid said:


>


 
Wow ! the camo is indeed working --- did not recognise immediately the outline of the LCH when I looked at it .

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## tallboy123

Liquid said:


>


 
U can see it is loaded with 8 unguided rockets.............

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## KS

tallboy123 said:


> U can see it is loaded with 8 unguided rockets.............


 
Its not 8. It 24 rockets.


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## tallboy123

Karthic Sri said:


> Its not 8. It 24 rockets.


 
Oops didnt observe correctly...
BTW,it's not 24..
One side 24 other side 24..so totally 48 Unguided rockets...

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## KS

tallboy123 said:


> Oops didnt observe correctly...
> BTW,it's not 24..
> One side 24 other side 24..so totally 48 Unguided rockets...


 
Duh !!!

But What makes you think the other side also had rockets ?? It may be ATGMs.


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## tallboy123

Karthic Sri said:


> Duh !!!
> 
> But What makes you think the other side also had rockets ?? It may be ATGMs.


 
 dude,it has 12 Unguided rockets on each side...total 24 only
and also has 2 ATGM's on both side...total 4 AtGM..isn't it less?


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## KS

tallboy123 said:


> Oops didnt observe correctly...
> BTW,it's not 24..
> *One side 24 other side 24..so totally 48 Unguided rockets*...


 


tallboy123 said:


> dude,it has *12 Unguided rockets on each side...total 24 only:*)
> and also has 2 ATGM's on both side...total 4 AtGM..isn't it less?


 


I don't know what are you trying to prove to me saying 24 in one post nd 48 in another.

Anyway lets stop this useless banter.

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## blackops

guys wont the tyres creat drag


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## sancho

tallboy123 said:


> dude,it has 12 Unguided rockets on each side...total 24 only
> and also has 2 ATGM's on both side...total 4 AtGM..isn't it less?



That are not ATGMs, but SR A2A missiles:

Livefist: Photos: MBDA Mistral AAM on Dhruv WSI

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## Abingdonboy

blackops said:


> guys wont the tyres creat drag



Why is everyone asking about this?? Very few helicopters let alone ATTACK helicopters have retractable landing gear. And the main reason for this?? Mainly to improve survivability- If the helicopter is crashing to the ground at 10m/s these landing gear are designed to absorb as much of the force as possible as along with the crash-worthy seats. Look at the Eurocopter Tiger, Apache Ah-64, Cobra, Mi-28 etc.

Remember, with the exception of the Ka-52 these helos don't have ejection seats so the pilots remain IN the seats during an emergency- I'm sure you'd like this extra survival characteristics.

Also creating retractable landing gear raises a huge number of issues such as the enormous space taken up by the wheels when retracted and also the extra weight, which was also a major issue for the LCH anyway

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## blackops

Abingdonboy said:


> Why is everyone asking about this?? Very few helicopters let alone ATTACK helicopters have retractable landing gear. And the main reason for this?? Mainly to improve survivability- If the helicopter is crashing to the ground at 10m/s these landing gear are designed to absorb as much of the force as possible as along with the crash-worthy seats. Look at the Eurocopter Tiger, Apache Ah-64, Cobra, Mi-28 etc.
> 
> Remember, with the exception of the Ka-52 these helos don't have ejection seats so the pilots remain IN the seats during an emergency- I'm sure you'd like this extra survival characteristics.
> 
> Also creating retractable landing gear raises a huge number of issues such as the enormous space taken up by the wheels when retracted and also the extra weight, which was also a major issue for the LCH anyway


 
i know that they can save you life in a crash landing but if it can some how fold it parallel to its body (not inside its body ) wont it be better


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## Whiplash

tallboy123 said:


> dude,it has 12 Unguided rockets on each side...total 24 only
> and also has 2 ATGM's on both side...total 4 AtGM..isn't it less?


 
Those pods are detachable. It can carry a max of 8 ATGMS or a max of 48 rockets. Here it carries a mix.


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## Abingdonboy

blackops said:


> i know that they can save you life in a crash landing but if it can some how fold it parallel to its body (not inside its body ) wont it be better



sure but that doesn't address the issue of what happens in a crash?? If there folded they won't be much use in reducing the force-THE MAIN REASON FOR NOT FOLDING


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## Capt.Popeye

Abingdonboy said:


> Why is everyone asking about this?? Very few helicopters let alone ATTACK helicopters have retractable landing gear. And the main reason for this?? Mainly to improve survivability- If the helicopter is crashing to the ground at 10m/s these landing gear are designed to absorb as much of the force as possible as along with the crash-worthy seats. Look at the Eurocopter Tiger, Apache Ah-64, Cobra, Mi-28 etc.
> 
> Remember, with the exception of the Ka-52 these helos don't have ejection seats so the pilots remain IN the seats during an emergency- I'm sure you'd like this extra survival characteristics.
> 
> Also creating retractable landing gear raises a huge number of issues such as the enormous space taken up by the wheels when retracted and also the extra weight, which was also a major issue for the LCH anyway


 
Correct on those points.

About impact absorption by the undercarriage, that becomes more important in case of a auto-rotated landing.
So far retracting undercarriages seem to be visible on choppers that can operate over-water as well. Has something to do with buoyancy issues in case of force-landing on water.


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## ajtr

*Technical snag hits LCH display​*
Bangalore, Feb 10, DHNS

The indigenous light combat helicopter (LCH) was forced to cut short its flying display, owing to a technical snag on Thursday.

The pilot reported a technical snag in the chopper&#8217;s rotors and was asked to land immediately, official sources said.

However, the aircraft is expected to fly on Friday. The LCH pilot, who is said to have complained of some unusual noise in the aircraft, was asked to land keeping in mind the safety of the people. The noise could have been from the Su-30 fighter jet taking off from a nearby runway, sources said. The data recorders of the helicopters have already been sent for a replay to HAL.


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## Whiplash

ajtr said:


> *Technical snag hits LCH display​*
> Bangalore, Feb 10, DHNS
> 
> The indigenous light combat helicopter (LCH) was forced to cut short its flying display, owing to a technical snag on Thursday.
> 
> The pilot reported a technical snag in the chopper&#8217;s rotors and was asked to land immediately, official sources said.
> 
> However, the aircraft is expected to fly on Friday. The LCH pilot, who is said to have complained of some unusual noise in the aircraft, was asked to land keeping in mind the safety of the people. The noise could have been from the Su-30 fighter jet taking off from a nearby runway, sources said. The data recorders of the helicopters have already been sent for a replay to HAL.


 
It's a prototype. I guess you can expect an 'unusual noise' here and there sometimes.


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## GareebNawaz

^^ but it should be taken seriouslt because A it makes us look like fools if we fail and B we must conccern for security of people and C we must better ourselves on making more reliable aricraft. It could haven been su-30 noise but i think we should also listen to the pilot.


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## soccerhero

blackops said:


> guys wont the tyres creat drag


Drag is not a major issue at 275 kmph speeds. It matters for jets which go at much higher speeds. Have you not seen turbo props with non retractable landing gear?


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## Kinetic

A closer look at the LCH and the team....

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## Water Car Engineer

great shot..

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## Water Car Engineer



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## tallboy123

I think in another 6months or so weapon trials of lch will be completed and it will be a matured platform like dhruv..


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## Thorough Pro

IndianArmy said:


> Another beautiful video Of LCH
> 
> YouTube - India launches Light Combat Helicopter


 
off topic but those who claim that "cold start doctrine" does not exist..please watch the vid closely


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## tallboy123

Pro we don't have any cold start doctorine,we may have only chilli start doctrine

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## Water Car Engineer

Aero India: India's indigenous combat chopper - India News - IBNLive

Good video of the LCH here.


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## Kinetic

Thorough Pro said:


> off topic but those who claim that "cold start doctrine" does not exist..please watch the vid closely


 
Vishal Thapar and his funny report. lol


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## jha

*Enjoy Maadi..*






courtesy: Vishal

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## Whiplash

Thorough Pro said:


> off topic but those who claim that "cold start doctrine" does not exist..please watch the vid closely


 
India is not an offensive nation. All that cold start doctrine hogwash was media created.


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## Joe Shearer

shchinese said:


> Arjun failed.
> LCA is going to be declared as a failure in months.
> LCH? that will just be another failure.


 
Since you had said all these about a year ago, you have excited a lot more attention, and created more impact. 

It's too late for all that now. The truth is out. The nicest thing these days is watching people like you grow steadily more ashen-faced as it dawns on you that all the adverse publicity didn't reflect the real state of affairs, and what you predicted on the basis of those reports would be so dramatically wrong.

Next thing: ignore these temporary setbacks, go revise Nostradamus. There's always a market for phoney prophets.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer



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## luckyyy

M.S.Dhoni took the LCH ride at airshow...


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## April.lyrics

congratulation to Indian people.

really an impressive helicopter.

seems a good competitor to WZ-10(middle type) and Z-19(light type)

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## Kinetic

Liquid said:


>


 
Good to see they are going for stealth in terms of design, composite materials as well as RAM coating.

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## angeldemon_007

> seems a good competitor to WZ-10(middle type) and Z-19(light type)


Please share some features of our attack helos with us and any future projects.


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## Black Widow

April.lyrics said:


> congratulation to Indian people.
> 
> really an impressive helicopter.
> 
> seems a good competitor to WZ-10(middle type) and Z-19(light type)



I don't think that LCH will give competition to any of the above mentioned Helos.... LCH is solely made for operating at very high altitude (6Km above sea level), so Z-19 and and Z10 has no competition with LCH... 

LCH is totally different machine made for specific need....


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## brahmastra



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## IndianArmy



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## tallboy123

Nice take off and awesome maneuverability by LCH

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## Water Car Engineer

^^^

old video


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## Water Car Engineer




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## GORKHALI

*how about this ??*

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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know if those rocket pods an be adjusted electrically like on the Apache or does the entire helo have to line up with the target??


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## tallboy123

*LCH TD-2 is the first attack helicopter in the world to get a Digital Camouflage*

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## Water Car Engineer

tallboy123 said:


> *LCH TD-2 is the first attack helicopter in the world to get a Digital Camouflage*


 
Dont think its all that great of an achievement..

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer




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## Whiplash

^What I constantly do not understand is why in all the models the rear wheel of the landing gear is shown like that, while its very different in the actual helicopter. 




Do you see the friggin difference?


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## Water Car Engineer

Whiplash said:


> ^What I constantly do not understand is why in all the models the rear wheel of the landing gear is shown like that, while its very different in the actual helicopter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see the friggin difference?


 
They are doing some redesigning..


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## Water Car Engineer

self delete..


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## shaktiman2010

blackops said:


> i know that they can save you life in a crash landing but if it can some how fold it parallel to its body (not inside its body ) wont it be better


 
You are right. HAL is full of morons. You should be in HAL then?

And actually IAF is full of bigger morons too becasue HAL made such landing gears because IAF asked for it.


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## jha



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## Water Car Engineer



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## blackops

shaktiman2010 said:


> You are right. HAL is full of morons. You should be in HAL then?
> 
> And actually IAF is full of bigger morons too becasue HAL made such landing gears because IAF asked for it.


 
Dude relax calm down it was just a suggestion


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## FNFAL

jha said:


>


 
oooh this baby means business ....btw is that the new desert digital camo??? 

Any pics from sideways?


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## emoriphious

Pakistan & China are in problem with this Indian LCH combat helicopter.


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## KS

FNFAL said:


> oooh this baby means business ....btw is that the new desert digital camo???
> 
> Any pics from sideways?


 
Here you go !


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## BlueDot_in_Space

Intejar...Intejar....Intejarrrr.....Tere udneka.....rocket fire ka.....dushmano ki pungi bajane ka.. intejarrrrr..intejaarrrrr


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## Tumba

jha said:


>






love this angle ... loookssss mean machine...  thanks for the treat bro ...


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## tanlixiang28776

emoriphious said:


> Pakistan & China are in problem with this Indian LCH combat helicopter.


 
They " are in problem " all right.


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

emoriphious said:


> Pakistan & China are in problem with this Indian LCH combat helicopter.


 
Primarily they"ll be mostly used for counter-insurgency.


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## KS

Syama Ayas said:


> Primarily they"ll be mostly used for counter-insurgency.


 
India's terrain rule out the Heli being used for CI ops. I dont think they will be any bit effective in the jungles of Central India or Kashmir. They will be good for Combat Air support over the plains of Punjab, deserts of Rajasthan and Gujarat and will be most effective in hunting out the tanks.


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## acetophenol

isn't it the first attack heli to have digital camouflauge


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## Joe Shearer

Karthic Sri said:


> India's terrain rule out the Heli being used for CI ops. I dont think they will be any bit effective in the jungles of Central India or Kashmir. They will be good for Combat Air support over the plains of Punjab, deserts of Rajasthan and Gujarat and will be most effective in hunting out the tanks.


 
You are right, but that is as far as Pakistan goes. You forgot Aksai Chin, where the terrain is suitable for use of armour, including armoured cars and APCs. Consider that China's obvious logistics superiority will allow her to build up not only infantry superiority but armoured formations in concentration also. In 62, this aspect was not fully developed by either side. Considering the logistics difficulties on the Indian side, there is a probability of a considerable superiority of armour in favour of the PLA. Only armour-killing attack helicopters can stem the onrush. The LCH will be eminently suited for this, as it has excellent high-altitude performance. 

Unfortunately, it will face formidable attack helicopters, MANPADs and short-range SAMs; in this respect, its speed of 275 kph is a handicap. Only a doctrinal shift in deployment and use will help; these assets will have to be deployed under tight control and coupled with its own defensive shields of infantry, anti-aircraft artillery and SAM batteries, to face off its threats.

As you have pointed out with regard to CI and Kashmir, it will also be less than useful in Arunachal Pradesh' jungles on mountains. Other flatland terrains that border India are unlikely to be battlezones in any serious way in the near future.


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## Joe Shearer

Syama Ayas said:


> Primarily they"ll be mostly used for counter-insurgency.


 
Wisdom - and the reverse - about counter-insurgency doesn't belong here, but the last thing one should do in counter-insurgency is to escalate the technology. Effective counter-insurgency is utterly useless without the counter-insurgency force being down-to-earth, used to operating off-road _*as a practice, not as a deviation*_, well-protected against small arms fire, equipped with minimalist weaponry never exceeding light machine guns, never extending to mortars or anything of a larger calibre, and using lorries, rail transport, rotary-wing transport and STOL aircraft only for superior off-theatre logistics, as force-multipliers. In other words, a force that operates more or less like a guerrilla force operates, including marching in small groups and concentrating at very high speed for an action, dispersing at equal high-speed after actions. These are best positioned as forces that use speed and movement as their main methods of prevailing over the enemy, and carry limited amounts of ammunitions, to avoid weighing themselves down.

For those who think that mop-up and consolidation is part of the job-description, this should be left to separate forces flown in to the scene of action even as it continues, able to move in and consolidate while the original strike-force moves out, either into ambush positions or into a change of targetted activity. Mobile strike forces and follow-up forces should not be combined but should be encouraged to be separate and to act in close coordination. Follow-up forces, in contrast to strike forces, should be more heavily armed, in terms of carrying greater quantities of ammunition, and larger percentages of machine guns, again with ammunition, as their role should be to move at great strength over small distances, with complete confidence that they cannot be overcome.

The third echelon should be specialised health-care, education, law and order, judicial and social engineering troops, dedicated to delivering those services that are assigned to the state to deliver, and that get dislocated during hostilities to the detriment of the state position that it is responsible for delivering these services and therefore responsible for collection of taxes and providing an administrative framework.

Between these three echelons, and a strong political steering committee, preferably a bi-partisan committee, there should be no scope for failure, provided that adequate time is allowed for these protracted operations in the teeth of virulent propaganda and attacks on the government's soft targets and personnel.

You will notice that attack helicopters are prominent by their absence.

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## Capt.Popeye

^^^
Apropos of *Joe Shearer's* post above; the best way to deal _militarily_ with an insurgent is like an insurgent. Live close to the land and live off the land. If there was any other viable way then ' carpet bombing' and 'agent orange' would have worked long years ago! They did'nt.

For an internal insurgency, the civilian option must never be overlooked, since that is the only method that strikes at the root of the insurgency.


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## misterme2

I wonder if the underside of the LCh should have cam that is sky colored so when enemies look at it from the ground it will blend with the sky.....the colors may have to change.....at least test different varieties in different environments to see what is best... Also, we should definitely begin researching immediately new camo that changes to external, environmental differences.......ay forest, jungle...I think that is where US research is looking at...its based off marine animals like octopus and starfish that can immediately change colors to suit their environment. Its amazing how most of our weapons and tech has been inspired and copied from Mother Nature. Most cutting edge research in the West uses input form nature to develop new tech. Food for thought for India, especially with so many undiscovered plant, insect, species.

---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 AM ----------

Damn proud to see the camo....now we need to put that on the uniforms and all weapons ASAP.


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## KS

Capt.Popeye said:


> ^^^
> Apropos of *Joe Shearer's* post above; the best way to deal _militarily_ with an insurgent is like an insurgent. Live close to the land and live off the land. If there was any other viable way then ' carpet bombing' and 'agent orange' would have worked long years ago! They did'nt.
> 
> For an internal insurgency, the civilian option must never be overlooked, since that is the only method that strikes at the root of the insurgency.


 
True ; but I specifically added the word Indian terrain because Gunships are of great use in the barren mountainous terrain in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

It is just our jungles dont allow the Gunship ops to a large extent.


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## shaktiman2010

We can say "they should do this" or "they should do that" sitting here but I think Indian Army knows what strategy is best for Indian conditions and environment. Because they know and understand the terrain and our motherland better than us.


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## misterme2

shaktiman2010 said:


> We can say "they should do this" or "they should do that" sitting here but I think Indian Army knows what strategy is best for Indian conditions and environment. Because they know and understand the terrain and our motherland better than us.


 


Nah no necessarily....everybody makes mistakes and corruption can blight any progress. So I think it is important for folks to voice their opinions in open forums.....coz you never know who may be reading.


Murthy and Anthony for Election......The SOuth Will RISE!!!


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## Joe Shearer

Karthic Sri said:


> True ; but I specifically added the word Indian terrain because Gunships are of great use in the barren mountainous terrain in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
> 
> It is just our jungles dont allow the Gunship ops to a large extent.



I hope you noticed post 513, which covered Indian terrain exclusively. The points about Afghanistan and Pakistan are not entirely valid; it is only in mountains without vantage points for marksmen with MANPADs to stand within MANPAD range that attack helicopters. That presupposes a degree of flat terrain, which can be found in Afghanistan between mountain ranges. On the other hand, there are areas, the Afghanistan-Pakistan border among them, where I suspect attack helicopters will be singularly out of place. Taking the point further, I suspect that our experts from Pakistan will inform us that neither north nor south Waziristan lends itself to attack helicopter operations.


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## CardSharp

Capt.Popeye said:


> ^^^
> Apropos of *Joe Shearer's* post above; the best way to deal _militarily_ with an insurgent is like an insurgent. Live close to the land and live off the land. If there was any other viable way then ' carpet bombing' and 'agent orange' would have worked long years ago! They did'nt.
> 
> For an internal insurgency, the civilian option must never be overlooked, since that is the only method that strikes at the root of the insurgency.


 
I will respectfully disagree. Intelligence above anything is what is important in counter-insurgency. There is the romantic idea of fighting the guerilla like a guerilla, (plot of the second Rambo movie no?) but I think it is largely unnecessary for an army operate off the land and of the land to be effective.


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## Capt.Popeye

CardSharp said:


> I will respectfully disagree. Intelligence above anything is what is important in counter-insurgency. There is the romantic idea of fighting the guerilla like a guerilla, (plot of the second Rambo movie no?) but I think it is largely unnecessary for an army operate off the land and of the land to be effective.


 
Intelligence (or the need thereof) is generic to fighting any conflict, not just an insurgency. About Rambo; Mr. Rambo or even Gen. Rambo will not last long in any counter insurgency operation. There was nothing romantic about the Viet Cong for instance, but a lot that was effective.


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## CardSharp

Capt.Popeye said:


> Intelligence (or the need thereof) is generic to fighting any conflict, not just an insurgency. About Rambo; Mr. Rambo or even Gen. Rambo will not last long in any counter insurgency operation. There was nothing romantic about the Viet Cong for instance, but a lot that was effective.


 
I think, intelligence is differentially important in different kinds of wars and also the kind of intelligence needed to fight an insurgency is different from the conventional idea of intelligence in war (ie troops disposition, concentration) but more human intelligence like relationships between people, cell structure, political motivation, stuff like that.


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## shaktiman2010

misterme2 said:


> *Murthy* and Anthony for Election......The SOuth Will RISE!!!


 
Antony is a good guy. Vote of antony!

Murthy? Excuse me, I don't want a call-center CEO whose coolie army works day night for doing contract work of western MNC's. 

That whole $1 Billion profit is waste and his company can't even produce a single biometric technology patent for country, who has to rely on foreign software firms for UID project, shelling out Indian tax-payer's hundreds of crores, in royalties.

Besdies that, Murthy will eat up all Indian tax-payer's money on importing foreign solutions & products, just like his company relies on western products for earning all bread and butter. Typical Romanian, polish style cheap outsourced contractor.

Heck, even those small Israeli firms are making world-class VOIP software patents and image recognition algorithms earning them millions of $$ in royalties from American firms. What Murthy's coolie-firm invented, other than relying on bits & pieces thrown by western firms?


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## shaktiman2010

misterme2 said:


> Murthy and Anthony for Election......*The SOuth Will RISE!!!*


 
Now I understand why you hate Hindus so much. LOL!


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## KS

Joe Shearer said:


> *I hope you noticed post 513, which covered Indian terrain exclusively. *The points about Afghanistan and Pakistan are not entirely valid; it is only in mountains without vantage points for marksmen with MANPADs to stand within MANPAD range that attack helicopters. That presupposes a degree of flat terrain, which can be found in Afghanistan between mountain ranges. On the other hand, there are areas, the Afghanistan-Pakistan border among them, where I suspect attack helicopters will be singularly out of place. Taking the point further, I suspect that our experts from Pakistan will inform us that neither north nor south Waziristan lends itself to attack helicopter operations.


 
I agree with that. And if a correction is allowed in my previous post I think the LCH is specifically designed for Aksai Chin and the Kashmir sector whereas it will primarily be the Hinds and the Apaches (hope they'll acquire that beast) which will be unleashed in the deserts.

And as regarding MANPADS it is not entirely valid given that the anti-MANPAD technology has grown exponentially and the even the LCH is fitted with an advanced Self Protection Suite.((Link), not to mention the Apaches that are fitted with Israeli Elisra Seraph Self Protection System with integrated Missile warners and Jammers.

This, though is for Afg only where the Apaches operate and not the FATA areas where it is the Cobras or the Super Cobras which recently underwent an upgrade IIRC and it would be helpful if any Pak member with knowledge on it can explain about the tactics of the Pakistani Cobra pilots.


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## KS

shaktiman2010 said:


> Antony is a good guy. Vote of antony!
> 
> Murthy? Excuse me, I don't want a call-center CEO whose coolie army works day night for doing contract work of western MNC's.
> 
> That whole $1 Billion profit is waste and his company can't even produce a single biometric technology patent for country, who has to rely on foreign software firms for UID project, shelling out Indian tax-payer's hundreds of crores, in royalties.
> 
> Besdies that, Murthy will eat up all Indian tax-payer's money on importing foreign solutions & products, just like his company relies on western products for earning all bread and butter. Typical Romanian, polish style cheap outsourced contractor.
> 
> Heck, even those small Israeli firms are making world-class VOIP software patents and image recognition algorithms earning them millions of $$ in royalties from American firms. What Murthy's coolie-firm invented, other than relying on bits & pieces thrown by western firms?


 
Lol I feel for you knowledge (or lack of it) in speaking about Infosys as a coolie company. Wakey wakey those things have long gone to other countries like Kenya,Phillipines.

India is now a niche exporter in software.

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## palash_kol

shaktiman2010 said:


> Antony is a good guy. Vote of antony!
> 
> Murthy? Excuse me, I don't want a call-center CEO whose coolie army works day night for doing contract work of western MNC's.
> 
> That whole $1 Billion profit is waste and his company can't even produce a single biometric technology patent for country, who has to rely on foreign software firms for UID project, shelling out Indian tax-payer's hundreds of crores, in royalties.
> 
> Besdies that, Murthy will eat up all Indian tax-payer's money on importing foreign solutions & products, just like his company relies on western products for earning all bread and butter. Typical Romanian, polish style cheap outsourced contractor.
> 
> Heck, even those small Israeli firms are making world-class VOIP software patents and image recognition algorithms earning them millions of $$ in royalties from American firms. What Murthy's coolie-firm invented, other than relying on bits & pieces thrown by western firms?


 
Your Honour.....point to be noted.....


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## Joe Shearer

First, my remarks were based on Robert Thompson partly, and his Malaysian experience; during the 60s, his writing was tremendously influential in certain circles in India, but actual experiences caused certain principles to be formulated. I had in my post reproduced from memory some documents 'seen' in a completely irregular manner, which dealt with a civilian force's doctrinal outline for dealing with Maoist insurrection in the countryside (it is to be noted that an earlier phase of country-based insurrection was defeated, and resulted in a flare-up of an essentially urban insurrectionary movement fought with low technology on both sides, which also resulted in the defeat of the insurrection). The sequence of events was:
Political detachment of insurrectionary faction from main pro-Chinese marxist political body (other mainstream marxist political body was pro-Soviet Russian);
outbreak of armed insurrection in West Bengal countryside;
successful partial repression of rural insurrection;
transfer and continuation of insurrection in urban setting (in Kolkata, 68 to 71);
repression of insurrection in urban area;
revival of rural insurrection;
second, thorough repression of rural insurrection;
long interval and multiple 'splits' in Maoist political body (different from majority pro-Chinese marxist body named earlier);
multiple outbreaks of insurrection in 'central' India (Bihar, including present Jharkhand, Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, specifically present Chhatisgarh, Maharashtra, including Gadchiroli area, Andhra Pradesh, and bits and pieces of Tamil Nadu and Kerala;
sustained insurrectionary campaign in Bihar/Jharkhand/West Bengal/Orissa/ Chhatisgarh;



CardSharp said:


> I will respectfully disagree. Intelligence above anything is what is important in counter-insurgency. There is the romantic idea of fighting the guerilla like a guerilla, (plot of the second Rambo movie no?) but I think it is largely unnecessary for an army operate off the land and of the land to be effective.



I *emphatically* agree that gathering of local intelligence, broader and more civilian and life-style activity oriented information than military information, is the living spirit of counter-insurgency work. Nothing I have written already should be considered to oppose intelligence gathering as a critical function.

There have been different doctrines used in different states, and all will be reported as possible, though possibly not in this thread. However, it is understood that all successful campaigns ran on efficient gathering of local information and intelligence. This was typically gathered by policemen as well as by civilian spies, operating under the protective and sustained presence of armed policemen in sensitive and trouble-prone areas. Details are not clearly known due to lack of documentation of these campaigns by state-based police forces, more accurately, state-based paramilitary forces uniformed and designated as policemen.

Living off the land was not an option and was not attempted; I suspect that this phrase was used in a different sense than it appears in the rebuttal, the different sense being to be located in and around the battlefield, not in off-terrain armed barracks, but in the field; fighting guerrillas as guerrillas was done successfully, partially by adopting some key elements in Mao' book 'On War'.



Capt.Popeye said:


> Intelligence (or the need thereof) is generic to fighting any conflict, not just an insurgency. About Rambo; Mr. Rambo or even Gen. Rambo will not last long in any counter insurgency operation. There was nothing romantic about the Viet Cong for instance, but a lot that was effective.



Rambo was not a model, although there were militaristic tendencies in some of the disparate forces assembled then and now.



CardSharp said:


> I think, intelligence is differentially important in different kinds of wars and also the kind of intelligence needed to fight an insurgency is different from the conventional idea of intelligence in war (ie troops disposition, concentration) but more human intelligence like relationships between people, cell structure, political motivation, stuff like that.


 
Very true.

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## CardSharp

Such infiltration and combination of civilian spies, military presence and targeted killing, was what made the Phoenix program so successful in Vietnam. It was implemented too late to make a difference but the vietcong leadership after the war attested to the effectiveness of the program.

I think an insurgency is more a social movement than an act of war. The war aspect is almost secondary, as such it is best defeated by subversion and misdirection of the social forces driving it. 





Capt.Popeye said:


> Intelligence (or the need thereof) is generic to fighting any conflict, not just an insurgency. About Rambo; Mr. Rambo or even Gen. Rambo will not last long in any counter insurgency operation. There was nothing romantic about the Viet Cong for instance, but a lot that was effective.


 
I think there is some misunderstanding about my rambo reference. I was referring to rambo not in the conventional sense of machinegun welding lonewolf, but the plot of Rambo 2 the movie where Rambo parachutes into the Vietnamese jungles with only a knife, and started ambushing the Vietcong using guerilla tactics, which I thought was what Popeye was advocating by this passage.




Capt.Popeye said:


> the best way to deal _militarily_ with an insurgent is like an insurgent. Live close to the land and live off the land.



This I wanted to point may be satisfying in the sense of giving insurgents a "taste of their own medicine" but is not really feasible as a effective framework for counter insurgency.


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## GORKHALI

*
LCH DURING SUNSET * 
check out the 3D HOLOGRAM of HAL too..........

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## JPUSINVNSCK

It looks a lil bit like eurocopter,isn't it?Does it has any relation or technology transfer from the german?What kind of radar and combat system will be use?


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## tallboy123

any new pic of LCH?


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## Water Car Engineer

JPUSINVNSCK said:


> *It looks a lil bit like eurocopter*,isn't it?Does it has any relation or technology transfer from the german?What kind of radar and combat system will be use?


 
Not at all..


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## BlueDot_in_Space

JPUSINVNSCK said:


> It looks a lil bit like eurocopter,isn't it?Does it has any relation or technology transfer from the german?What kind of radar and combat system will be use?


 
You need eye checkup.


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## Water Car Engineer




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## Abingdonboy

[/COLOR]


jha said:


>


 
I've never noticed this before but if you zoom in, it is easier with other pics of the same helo, you can read the little sticker about the EO pod- it is a IAI ELOP, I have looked into this and what I have found out is quite interesting. The pod is normally found on high altitude UAVs and is very capable and advanced. I think good move by HAL fitting such an advanced EO pod. It looks like this is a recent development too as the EO pod on LCH-TD1 is different.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I've never noticed this before but if you zoom in, it is easier with other pics of the same helo, you can read the little sticker about the EO pod- it is a IAI ELOP, I have looked into this and what I have found out is quite interesting. The pod is normally found on high altitude UAVs and is very capable and advanced. I think good move by HAL fitting such an advanced EO pod. It looks like this is a recent development too as the EO pod on LCH-TD1 is different.


 
The early prototypes had mock ups of this EO pod, because that is enough for the early flight tests. They now integrated it into the new prototype with some other changes and will test these functions and capabilities as well. The next step should bring more new techs and include weapon integration as well.

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## jha

Abingdonboy said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> I've never noticed this before but if you zoom in, it is easier with other pics of the same helo, you can read the little sticker about the EO pod- *it is a IAI ELOP*, I have looked into this and what I have found out is quite interesting. The pod is normally found on high altitude UAVs and is very capable and advanced. I think good move by HAL fitting such an advanced EO pod. It looks like this is a recent development too as the EO pod on LCH-TD1 is different.


 
Chalo..Atleast some one has noticed..Everybody will be surprised when this bird is ready for induction..A lot is coming in this..
Bad guys will be petrified by its capability..


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## SpArK

*Indian Light Combat Helicopter TD-2 successfully tested by HAL
​*






Another major milestone was by achieved by Indias state owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). According to our sources the HALs flagship helicopter development program *Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) second prototype TD-2 (Technology Demonstrator) achieved its first flight at 1500hrs IST. This a major boost for the program as this prototype is expected to be a weaponized version.
*

The nature of this test flight is not yet clear but it is believed that the helicopter made low level hover similar to first test flight of LCH TD-1. The TD-2 also has lots of Indian Army specific inputs like the revolutionary digital camouflage. Also the TD-2 is 100kgs lighter than the TD-1. TD-2 is also equipped with a fully functional target acquisition and pilots vision pod a feature which was not seen in TD-1.


Plan to develop an attack helicopter was finalized in October 2006 after the design concept developed by HAL was approved by the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force. Need for a modern attack helicopter platform was felt by the Indian military during late 90s when its attack helicopter fleet comprising of some 30 Russian Mi-24s and Mi-35s proved to be useless at high altitude and lacked sophistication needed by complex modern wars. It was decided to develop an attack helicopter which could fulfill the unique and different needs of the Army and the Air force.


LCH was designed out of HALs highly successful multi-role utility helicopter Dhruv. Dhruv first entered service in 2002 and since have carried out its duties in a very successful manner. Dhruv is also being exported to many countries. Developing LCH from Dhruv saved HAL preciously needed time. So far the IAF has placed an order of 65 LCHs and the Army has placed an order of 114. According to estimates the LCH should receive its Final operational clearance by 2013/2014 after which it will enter service.


The LCH incorporates stealth features, ability to perform night operations and crash landing gear for high survivability. The LCH will have a narrow fuselage, with two crew stations. The LCH is being designed to fit into an anti-infantry and anti-armour role and will be able to operate at high altitudes (16,300 feet). HAL will supply the Indian Air Force with 65 and Indian army with 114 gunships. The helicopter is powered by the HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshaft engine. The helicopter will be equipped with helmet-mounted targeting systems, electronic warfare systems and advanced weapons systems.
The LCH is to have a glass cockpit with multifunction displays, a target acquisition and designation system with FLIR, Laser rangefinder and laser designator. Weapons will be aimed with a helmet mounted sight and there will be an electronic warfare suite with radar warning receiver, laser warning receiver and a missile approach warning system.

Indian Light Combat Helicopter TD-2 successfully tested by HAL | Defence Aviation

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## Kinetic

^^^^ thats a major news, You should open a new thread for this. They have made some weight reduction and design changes as well as new camo on the TD-2. Waiting for a video.


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## Abingdonboy

Kinetic said:


> ^^^^ thats a major news, You should open a new thread for this. They have made some weight reduction and design changes as well as new camo on the TD-2. Waiting for a video.


 
This new camo is the one seen on it (TD-2) at AI-11

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## Laughing_soldier

Abingdonboy said:


> This new camo is the one seen on it (TD-2) at AI-11


 
any photo of the flight?


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## UKBengali

It does not look all that bad.

Congrats to India!

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## Laughing_soldier

UKBengali said:


> *It does not look all that bad.*
> 
> Congrats to India!


 
Cannot say that its looks awesome? 

Which Indian weapons look bad to you?


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## UKBengali

Laughing_soldier said:


> Cannot say that its looks awesome?
> 
> Which Indian weapons look bad to you?



That was a figure of speech. It actually looks like a reasonable effort from India and much better than I had expected.


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## || |\| ||)) || /\\ |\|

Looks great!


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## Dalai Lama

Love the new camo!


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## Dalai Lama

Laughing_soldier said:


> Cannot say that its looks awesome?
> 
> Which Indian weapons look bad to you?



Come on, it's the best they can manage, why do you want to start this?


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## angeldemon_007

No pics or video of LCH td2 and arjun mk2 ??/


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## RajeHind

Is this true that srilanka is going to purchase 30 such machines?


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## Lord Of Gondor

^^^^^^Nope,Domestic orders coupled with HAL's poor annual production rates will block any exports.


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## sudhir007



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## Black Widow

Bharadwaj said:


> ^^^^^^Nope,Domestic orders coupled with HAL's poor annual production rates will block any exports.


 
HAL must start parallel assembly lines..


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## DeathGod

sudhir007 said:


>


 
Wow .... absolutely incredible.....

if the data is true thanLCH is better than Eurocopter & AW-129.... two helicopters that belong to its weight class...

Guess we need better avionics and advances in material science, to reduce the weight of the copter.

One question is : The power of LCH is more than Eurocopter and its weight is less but the maximum speed is also less. Seems some discrepancy or maybe somebody needs to shed some light on the paradox...

Service cieling is 6500 meters... better than any other copter listed ...


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## Black Widow

DeathGod said:


> Wow .... absolutely incredible.....
> 
> if the data is true thanLCH is better than Eurocopter & AW-129.... two helicopters that belong to its weight class...
> 
> Guess we need better avionics and advances in material science, to reduce the weight of the copter.
> 
> One question is : The power of LCH is more than Eurocopter and its weight is less but the maximum speed is also less. Seems some discrepancy or maybe somebody needs to shed some light on the paradox...
> 
> Service cieling is 6500 meters... better than any other copter listed ...


 
I can make an wild guess, I think the Power is transmitted more to rotor so that it can climb high altitude. May be due to it max speed is compromised.. Indian doctrine is to facilitate armed forces with high altitude machines..


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## sudhir007

DeathGod said:


> Wow .... absolutely incredible.....
> 
> if the data is true thanLCH is better than Eurocopter & AW-129.... two helicopters that belong to its weight class...
> 
> Guess we need better avionics and advances in material science, to reduce the weight of the copter.
> 
> One question is : The power of LCH is more than Eurocopter and its weight is less but the maximum speed is also less. Seems some discrepancy or maybe somebody needs to shed some light on the paradox...
> 
> Service cieling is 6500 meters... better than any other copter listed ...


there is only 2 concern point both IAF & IA 
1. it over weight around some 200-300kg (which actual plan)
2. is speed it should be around 300 km/hr

but anyhow they are happy with the lch and hal try to reduce some weight in later batch.


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## DarK-LorD

I think HAL will come out with a LCH mk2 in the future.


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## sudhir007



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## Dalai Lama

Looking back at some of the early posts here... quite entertaining.

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## angeldemon_007

*LCH TD-2 makes a silent maiden flight; platform incorporates lots of new features *






The second technology demonstrator (TD-2) of Indias Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) took to the skies for the first time on June 28 in Bangalore. 
"On June 28, the pilots did some very limited manoeuvres, though not much was experimented. The maiden flight was limited to low-speed testing. They (pilots) will now take the platform and fly over the runway to check the endurance and eventually will expand the full envelope. The designers, engineers and pilots are all delighted by this significant development, the official said.
The pilots (Unni Pillai & Hari Nair) have given some observations and we are working on the same. These are development flights and we will address all the teething problems that arise, the official added
Meanwhile, an insider said that LCH TD-2 boasts of lots of new features as compared to TD-1. Lots of new systems are onboard. The platform is lighter and we have modified the gearbox. Even the tail-rotor control system is different. The doors for the pilots have been modified for better structural clearance. The cockpit remains the same and we are constantly modifying the chopper based on the inputs from the pilots, she said.
She also added that the TD-1 has completed 70 hours of flying so far and the TD-3 will be very closer to the production version, incorporating some more changes. Any new project is a huge challenge for us. With so much stigma attached to the Helicopter Division in the past, we are happy that LCH is gifting us some inspiring moments now. This is years of hard work and we are all happy that finally things are moving, she said.
When asked why HAL chose to be silent on the first flight of LCH TD-2, an insider said: "We are used to it now." HAL's chopper complex in-charge P.S. Rajan was not available for any comment.
The LCH TD-2 was the main draw at Aero India 2011 wrapped in digital camouflage paint -- a technology mastered by India recently. Incidentally, LCH will be the first Indian Air Force asset to don this new paint scheme. 
Three cheers to all engineers, designers, test pilots and youngsters associated with LCH programme! Good job by teams lead by Srinath, Sampath and Unni!

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: LCH TD-2 makes a silent maiden flight; platform incorporates lots of new features


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## Water Car Engineer

> The modern helicopters have evolved from being just a transport vehicle for utility roles to much powerful weapon platforms with lethal attack capability. The high powered engines, hingeless rotor, advanced aerodynamic design and fuselage made of high composite content make the helicopter of the present day, a highly agile & manoeuvrable machine. Adding to this, the state-of-the-art digital avionics/mission systems & sensors, digital display systems and on-board monitoring & alert systems reduce the pilot workload for increased mission effectiveness. Thus helicopters have become today highly versatile and hence used for multi-role, multi-mission operations.
> 
> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has made its presence felt in the area of indigenous design & development of helicopters with the successful induction of its Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) in the year 2002. The ALH with its advanced technology features such as hingeless rotors, Glass Cockpit, modern engine with FADEC, crashworthy structure and real-time monitoring features has been operationalised by Indian Armed Services as well as by Ecuadorian Air Force. Further improvements on ALH with respect to enhanced operational capability for high altitude operations have been realised through integration of higher powered engines, active vibration control & vibration monitoring in the later versions of the helicopter.
> 
> Based on the experience and knowledge gained on ALH, the Rotary Wing Research & Design Centre of HAL has embarked on the design and development of dedicated combat helicopter, namely, Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). Commonality with ALH has been maintained on dynamic systems such as Transmission, Engines and Rotor systems whereas structures and landing gear have been designed to suit combat requirements. The LCH has been designed to fulfil combat roles such as Air Defense, Anti-tank, counter insurgency, scout duties etc. equipped with electronic warfare suite, helmet mounted sight, EO Pod, data link, IR Suppressor, IR counter measures and stealth features as well as a full compliment of weapons such as Turret Gun, Air-to-Air Missiles, Air-to-ground Missiles and Rockets. The helicopter design has been carried out using Product data Management (PDM) tools and the first prototype had its maiden flight on 29th March 2010. The paper presents the details of technology features, design objectives, testing and program aspects of LCH. The collaborative efforts involving various User organisations, Certification authorities, external institutions, subcontractors and vendors are also highlighted.
> 
> The LCH has ushered in a new era in the indigenous design and development of dedicated combat helicopters in India strengthening self-reliance of the subcontinent.
> 
> Aero India



*Youtube User:* Luptonga


I suggest people subscribe to this guy, because he has some great videos on Indian military projects.


****EDIT****
















********************************************************************************
*










^^^^

*Some very old stuff!*


Design was more closer to Dhruv.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Abingdonboy

Man this is going to kick some a$$ when it comes into service and shut some people up!!


It's very interesting the leap Indian armed forces are taking 2-3 SQDs of dedicated attack helos (IAF) to 150-200 dedicated attack helos (IAF+IA) aswell as non-dedicated attack helos WSI-Dhruv, 75-100 (IAF+IA) this is a HUGE jump in capabilities!!

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## Mo12

Indeed these helicopters look sexy


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## Abingdonboy




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## Bhairava

I personally think the 12 tube rocket launcher is a bit low and we should have those 19 tube M261 launchers they have on those Apaches.


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## Gessler

someone check out this -

LCH in digital desert camo -

[IMG=http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/264/lch3h.jpg][/IMG]

---------- Post added at 04:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------





Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Gessler

awesome flight photos -









Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Gessler

awesome flight photos -









Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## prime2012

Hats off.... awesome pics & indeed is a marvel..


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## U.S Navy SEALs

I personally love the design of the helicopter, and so on. But as one person posted out that the design changed several times through the course of the program. Before this enters production, let's say in 2014-15 realistically, will the design change? Will it become more stealthier? Will they change the weapon launcher pod from 12 to 19, etc? Rotor shaping change? Different engine?

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## HZR2011

when will it come to damn service???? will they be developing it till 2020???


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## Roybot

HZR2011 said:


> when will it come to damn service???? will they be developing it till 2020???



2012-2013. They are working on two more prototypes. One was spotted in Banglore couple of days back


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## karan21

i think this is the most beautifull helicopter in the market today. now we need a fighter too. i wish amca could make flight by 2014.


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## Shardul.....the lion

sudhir007 said:


>



The pics are Awesome man......................

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## Water Car Engineer

_LCH TD-2 modified for further testing.
_









_Before modifications _

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## IndoUS

^^ man that looks weird, at first I thought it was for refueling. It seems the works is going well with the LCH hopefully we will see it in service early next year.


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## Roybot

Is that an aerial refueling probe?


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## Water Car Engineer

Roybot said:


> Is that an aerial refueling probe?



No, its like a sensor that collecting data for the team..

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## IndoUS

The pic of ALH is it from the Expo??? Or is it from trials?? The sky outside is confusing me.


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## Dalai Lama

I just want more rocket pods.


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## parkland

damm that ugly yellow colour, black was way better.
can anyone tell me the purpose of the rod in the front??
and i noticed that the weapons rod is bent at an angle, while before modifications it was parallel to ground. any reasons for that?

cockpit looks nice. 

overall these modifications have made it look a bit ugly. but i guess they benefit the performance.



Butters said:


> I just want more rocket pods.



weapons will come once its operations, has it undergone weapons trials yet though??


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## Water Car Engineer

One of LCH's armaments, Helina.

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## parkland

Sir LurkaLot said:


> One of LCH's armaments, Helina.



when are the weapons trials???


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## Abingdonboy

IndoUS said:


> ^^ man that looks weird, at first I thought it was for refueling. It seems the works is going well with the LCH hopefully we will see it in service early next year.



Purely a sensors for flight trails to gather extra/more accurate information to be transmitted to the ground/downloaded post-flight.

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## parkland

definitely one true world class product

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## praveen007

that weired looking rod in front is the air refuling probe, not any senser.


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## Water Car Engineer

praveen007 said:


> that weired looking rod in front is the air refuling probe, not any senser.




It's not a air refueling pod.......

That rod and that horn looking thing are sensors...


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## Black Widow

@wiered looking rod: this is sensors which exist on prototypes. you Google f22 or pak-fa, you can see similar rods. they will not there in production models. 

@ dirty yellow color: it is primer, commonly used in fighter planes. above this primer original color is done. testing is done with primer to see structural flaws.

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## RPK

@wiered looking rod: is the pitot tube to measure air speed Pitot tube - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@ dirty yellow color: Electrophoretic deposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## sancho

Sir LurkaLot said:


> _LCH TD-2 modified for further testing.
> _



Changes:







The new stubwings seems to be strong enough for 6 to 8 ATGMs each.

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## anathema

praveen007 said:


> that weired looking rod in front is the air refuling probe, not any senser.



It is a sensor to measure airspeed. It sticks out well beyond the dirty air (air from the rotors) and measures the airspeed accurately. 
--Courtesy Hari Nair


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## Abingdonboy

praveen007 said:


> that weired looking rod in front is the air refuling probe, not any senser.



Have you ever seen an A2A refuelling probe? it looks NOTHING like this. It is an extra sensor fitted during flight tests to gather mora accurate data. This is common in any flight test programmes:

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## Dalai Lama

What is the change on the wings? More swept back and stronger armament boom?


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## Abingdonboy

Butters said:


> What is the change on the wings? More swept back and stronger armament boom?



Could be a number of things from strengthening, slight modifications in design to encourage airflow one way or another or to reduce drag (I heard was an issue initially).

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## blackops

Hahaha loved the earlier comments by chinese and pakistani members here a BIG LOL at you guys

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## Kinetic

Lots of changes. Specially the armament boom has been changed completely. The landing gear also different.


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## sancho

Butters said:


> What is the change on the wings? More swept back and stronger armament boom?








As far as I see it...

- angled
- stronger, especially at the tips
- pylons seems to be more attched to the wings to hold more weight

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## Gessler

I want LCH to be able to carry 8 x ATGMs as standard config...we need the
19-tube unguided rocket launch pods as well.

I think we would get the 19-tube ones with the Apaches we'll be buying...our guys
could perhaps copy/reverse-engineer them to produce our own such pod.


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## sancho

gessler said:


> ...we need the
> 19-tube unguided rocket launch pods as well.



More useful than the number of rockets would be to used laser guidance for the rockets. That makes them more lethal, even in smaller numbers.

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## Water Car Engineer

Sir LurkaLot said:


> _LCH TD-2 modified for further testing.
> 
> _


_




_

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## Tamizhan

What is the small stub jutting out on the sides just below the cockpit ? Some kinda rudder ?


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## marcos98

The LCH - climbing above 6000 m - a view in the cockpit


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## Indian009

LCH Look great to me 
Any news on induction timeline ???


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## sancho

marcos98 said:


> The LCH - climbing above 6000 m - a view in the cockpit



Did you missed the pic or why can't I see anything?


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Did you missed the pic or why can't I see anything?



He seems to have forgotten to past the pic, here you go anyway:

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## Avatar

Indian009 said:


> LCH Look great to me
> Any news on induction timeline ???



The induction will begin after the final product is ready. HAL is doing well with the prototypes, and a final design should be ready soon. After that the military will conduct evaluations and MOD will pass whatever the initial order is, and serial production should begin by 2014-2015, around the same time as induction of the first LSP units.


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## Nishan_101

sancho said:


> As far as I see it...
> 
> - angled
> - stronger, especially at the tips
> - pylons seems to be more attched to the wings to hold more weight


 
I am sure that this is like a sitting DUCK for Anza MK-IIs and Anza Mk-IIIs and BDs must look towards buying these from us along with Srilanka too.


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## Shinigami

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that this is like a sitting DUCK for Anza MK-IIs and Anza Mk-IIIs and BDs must look towards buying these from us along with Srilanka too.



scared arnt ya? its ok i dont think there will be another indo-pak war. so u can relax

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## Gessler

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that this is like a sitting DUCK for Anza MK-IIs and Anza Mk-IIIs and BDs must look towards buying these from us along with Srilanka too.



Anza? Stingers and better ones from West as well everything from Russia/USSR have failed to
supress US from fielding Apache and Russia from fielding Hind (and now Havoc). What makes you
think your a-n-z-a would be capable of taking this down?

And what if it takes down the anza-wielder first?

Think of some ways to protect your Al-khalids, T-8UDs, Type-85s from this one (and then Apache coming
later one). We all know how "well" these hand-held air defense systems worked against Israelis in their wars
or against the US choppers, they failed to supress any attack.


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## SamantK

^^ The pic is awesome. Atleast, there are some areas where Indian defence has come of age..


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## IndianArmy

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that this is like a sitting DUCK for Anza MK-IIs and Anza Mk-IIIs and BDs must look towards buying these from us along with Srilanka too.



LCH's Service ceiling is 6,500 m (21,300 ft) which Neither the Anza MKII's nor the Anza Mk-IIIs can reach by both range and Altitude. Sorry for waking you up

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## AUSTERLITZ

ANZA not much good against LCH.It sacrifices payload for for high altitude performance.Anza's attack altitude is maximum 4000 m.

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## PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that this is like a sitting DUCK for Anza MK-IIs and Anza Mk-IIIs and BDs must look towards buying these from us along with Srilanka too.


well,u can sell ur anza-manza crap to BD,SL and any nation in the world,this lch contains missile warning suites,electronic counter measures and other EW suites which can easily protect itself from sub-standard SAMs like anza...


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## Boobytrap

IndianArmy said:


> LCH's Service ceiling is 6,500 m (21,300 ft) which Neither the Anza MKII's nor the Anza Mk-IIIs can reach by both range and Altitude. Sorry for waking you up



LMAO.. u just kicked him out of his sleep  

Damn.. that was epic pwnage

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## Tshering22

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that this is like a sitting DUCK for Anza MK-IIs and Anza Mk-IIIs and BDs must look towards buying these from us along with Srilanka too.



Dude, there's a limit to something called burning rears. 

BTW your post reflects two things:

- intention to troll
- total ignorance about how a gunship works.



Sir LurkaLot said:


> _LCH TD-2 modified for further testing.
> _



Wing stubs more angled, stronger and potentially carry heavier weapons payload within prescribed limits. Excellent!

LCH way to go! Army Aviation is definitely going for the kill with 114 of these beasts.

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## SQ8

IndianArmy said:


> LCH's Service ceiling is 6,500 m (21,300 ft) which Neither the Anza MKII's nor the Anza Mk-IIIs can reach by both range and Altitude. Sorry for waking you up



Yes, but would it not be fun for some combat aircraft to shoot a chugging helicopter at those altitudes. 
There's a reason the word "_layered air defence_" was coined.


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## praveen007

for that , we also have some thing called medium weight hellies which are currently in final stage of short-listing and both appache and mi-8 are very good at dealing with thous airplanes.
And thats the reason why light attacke hellies have heavy or medium atteck hellies for esscort.


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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> Yes, but would it not be fun for some combat aircraft to shoot a chugging helicopter at those altitudes.
> There's a reason the word "_layered air defence_" was coined.



Yes it would be!!! So a chugging helicopter can pretty much bait a few combat aircrafts into the reaches of a R77 RVV SD?

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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> Yes it would be!!! So a chugging helicopter can pretty much bait a few combat aircrafts into the reaches of a R77 RVV SD?



Goes both ways.. chopper pilots willing to bait aircraft in should also think that they too may be picked off at range.
point being, it would be sheer idiocy to think that the LCH would be operationally operated at 20000 ft AGL...lest it be used by a *professional* to make a gloating point.
Its an attack helicopter designed to go low and under the enemy's radar.. 
it will find itself under threat from MANPADS and AAA.. but then again.. thats what its ATGM's and other long rang systems are for.
A manpad cant react to a chopper popping up from behind a hill with its cannon blazing.


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## ganimi kawa

Oscar said:


> Yes, but would it not be fun for some combat aircraft to shoot a chugging helicopter at those altitudes.
> There's a reason the word "_layered air defence_" was coined.



Too simplistic an assumption!

1. Will that "some combat aircraft" will always be hovering over the targets that LCH will probably engage?

2. In case that this "some combat aircraft" is scrambled to intercept, will the LCH be not warned by friendly sensors (AWACS et al)? There is a reason the term "network centric warfare" was launched..

3. Most important of all, what will the "some combat aircraft" on the other side will do when their choppers are threatened, twiddle their thumbs?


One has to look at the LCH with the type of missions it will be asked to perform. In that light the LCH does bring some respectable capability to the front!



> it would be sheer idiocy to think that the LCH would be operationally operated at 20000 ft AGL...lest it be used by a professional to make a gloating point.



It will have to operate at relatively high altitudes in the Himalayan sector. If it performs well at 20000 feet it does augur well for ops at 10000 feet too!

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## angeldemon_007

> Yes, but would it not be fun for some combat aircraft to shoot a chugging helicopter at those altitudes.
> There's a reason the word "layered air defence" was coined.


Why do you think he mentioned the altitude issue ??



> Yes it would be!!! So a chugging helicopter can pretty much bait a few combat aircrafts into the reaches of a R77 RVV SD?


Are you serious ??? Why would a helicopter try to engage a fighter jet ?? Any fighter jet is capable of shooting down even the best helicopter if helicopter tries to confront the jet. 



> point being, it would be sheer idiocy to think that the LCH would be operationally operated at 20000 ft AGL...lest it be used by a professional to make a gloating point.


Most of the Indian disputed border areas are located in HImalayas. During the Kargil war, the war was fought at the heights of 18000 ft. No country in the world has the attack helicopter that can fly in such conditions. Not to mention India-Pakistan has dispute over Siachen too. Now if a war broke of even at Siachen glacier, Indian troops will also have the support of attack helicopter which PA won't enjoy.
Forget about Siachen, most of the JnK is at a very great height. With low radar signature and capability to fly on those altitudes between those ridges, mountains, valleys...no radar can detect for a longer distance. Its a surveillance nightmare if you are using ground radars. Some places like in ladakh areas its possible to some extent but in most of the JnK areas it will be difficult to track it. You cannot expect your fighter jets to provide air support every where. There are times where you need rotors...more specifically attack helicopters.

In short this helicopter will be a game changer for India. Although i think a heavier version should be built to provide support to armored regiment in the Rajasthan and Punjab areas or increase the purchase of Apache to 80.

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## AUSTERLITZ

The key to the apache is the longbow radar,provided apaches lead and guide a pack of LCH armed with HELINA or spike.The job will be done very comprehensively.The pakistani army's greatest offensive weakness is total lack of anti aerial mobile support for accompanying its armour formations.This puts every armoured push requiring cover from the PAF which will be hard pressed anyway.Without paf able to achieve air superiority over its target area,every armoured attack into hostile territory is liable to end up another longewala.
India in this respect at least is better off with sa-8/sa-13 gecko/gopher missile systems and tunguska missile/gun platforms accompnying its armour.But sa-13s are getting a little old and need to be replaced.


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## surya kiran

The chopper will hit and run. Its not going to loiter around to provide air defence cover. It will come in low and fast. In the plains of Punjab and deserts of Thar, its not going to come in from behind any hillock. The main attack will come from the standoff capability of the ATGM (Helina is estimated at 8kms). And post that get out before the PAF can come in. Leave the PAF fighter jocks to the IAF. The chopper is not built for high altitude dog fights.


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## SQ8

ganimi kawa said:


> Too simplistic an assumption!
> 
> 1. Will that "some combat aircraft" will always be hovering over the targets that LCH will probably engage?
> 
> 2. In case that this "some combat aircraft" is scrambled to intercept, will the LCH be not warned by friendly sensors (AWACS et al)? There is a reason the term "network centric warfare" was launched..
> 
> 3. Most important of all, what will the "some combat aircraft" on the other side will do when their choppers are threatened, twiddle their thumbs?
> 
> 
> One has to look at the LCH with the type of missions it will be asked to perform. In that light the LCH does bring some respectable capability to the front!
> 
> 
> 
> It will have to operate at relatively high altitudes in the Himalayan sector. If it performs well at 20000 feet it does augur well for ops at 10000 feet too!


 


angeldemon_007 said:


> Why do you think he mentioned the altitude issue ??
> 
> 
> Are you serious ??? Why would a helicopter try to engage a fighter jet ?? Any fighter jet is capable of shooting down even the best helicopter if helicopter tries to confront the jet.
> 
> 
> Most of the Indian disputed border areas are located in HImalayas. During the Kargil war, the war was fought at the heights of 18000 ft. No country in the world has the attack helicopter that can fly in such conditions. Not to mention India-Pakistan has dispute over Siachen too. Now if a war broke of even at Siachen glacier, Indian troops will also have the support of attack helicopter which PA won't enjoy.
> Forget about Siachen, most of the JnK is at a very great height. With low radar signature and capability to fly on those altitudes between those ridges, mountains, valleys...no radar can detect for a longer distance. Its a surveillance nightmare if you are using ground radars. Some places like in ladakh areas its possible to some extent but in most of the JnK areas it will be difficult to track it. You cannot expect your fighter jets to provide air support every where. There are times where you need rotors...more specifically attack helicopters.
> 
> In short this helicopter will be a game changer for India. Although i think a heavier version should be built to provide support to armored regiment in the Rajasthan and Punjab areas or increase the purchase of Apache to 80.



20000ft AGL is above ground level.. 


> an above ground level (AGL) altitude is an altitude measured with respect to the underlying ground surface.



I pray.. will the LCH be flying 20000 ft *above* a 18000 ft mountain? 
again.. the emphasis for an attack chopper is flying low or close to surfaces to avoid detection by the enemy.
I suggest people not take my post with _simplistic assumptions _

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> 20000ft AGL is above ground level..
> 
> 
> I pray.. will the LCH be flying 20000 ft *above* a 18000 ft mountain?
> again.. the emphasis for an attack chopper is flying low or close to surfaces to avoid detection by the enemy.
> I suggest people not take my post with _simplistic assumptions _



I was thinking the same- the 20,000 ft ceiling is to reach the highest Indian posts- not to avoid detection/attack this is completely contrary to all logic behind attack helos. One only has to look at the camo on the LCH TD-2 to see what it is intended to do-low level flight (low-vis grey camo is usually for high flying a/c so it blends into the sky when looked at from below). In this case it will be up to the counter-measures, in-built low radar visibility characteristics of LCH, jamming and pilot skill to avoid hits with SAMs.


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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> Goes both ways.. chopper pilots willing to bait aircraft in should also think that they too may be picked off at range.
> point being, it would be sheer idiocy to think that the LCH would be operationally operated at 20000 ft AGL...lest it be used by a *professional* to make a gloating point.
> Its an attack helicopter designed to go low and under the enemy's radar..
> it will find itself under threat from MANPADS and AAA.. but then again.. thats what its ATGM's and other long rang systems are for.
> A manpad cant react to a chopper popping up from behind a hill with its cannon blazing.



Well I see LCH operating in tandem with fast moving IBG's in the plain lands, providing forward air control, lasing targets for CAS fixed wings and ambushing armor.


In mountainous terrain, its often better to overwhelm the enemy with tube and conventional arty. I dont see the LCH doing much in that terrain other Spec ops.


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## IndianArmy

Oscar said:


> Yes, but would it not be fun for some combat aircraft to shoot a chugging helicopter at those altitudes.
> There's a reason the word "_layered air defence_" was coined.



LCH is not vulnerable to Air Defense, as its designed to undertake missions like *destruction of enemy air defense(DEAD)*. LCH is not invincible either.


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## AUSTERLITZ

To be fair PAK landbased air defences are pretty weak.So to be superior to them is not a great 'feat'.


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## Joe Shearer

sandy_3126 said:


> Well I see LCH operating in tandem with fast moving IBG's in the plain lands, providing forward air control, lasing targets for CAS fixed wings and ambushing armor.
> 
> 
> In mountainous terrain, its often better to overwhelm the enemy with tube and conventional arty. I dont see the LCH doing much in that terrain other Spec ops.



In fact, further to your observation about the ineffectiveness of the LCH in mountain terrain, it will be more vulnerable in that terrain. Flying attack helicopters in the mountains is asking to lose a lot of helicopters.


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## Bl[i]tZ

OSCAR should read that the American Air Campaign in the first gulf war begun only after the destruction of radars and enemy air defences by Apache. .



> Actions in Desert Storm--
> In Operation Desert Storm, the Apache was called on to perform its primary mission of tank-killing and did so with tremendous success. I*n some of the first attacks of the air war, Apaches attacked Iraqi command and control centers for air defenses on the border. Using the laser-guided Hellfire missile, Apaches destroyed a number of tank and armor units prior to the ground invasion.* In one of the more interesting attacks of the air war, two Apache's were successful in forcing some 400Iraqi prisoners to surrender just prior to the start of the ground war. When the ground war commenced, *Apaches provided close air support to advancing allied forces, destroying a considerable number of Iraqi tanks.*
> 
> 274 AH-64's were deployed to the KTO. This represented 45% of the Army's AH-64 fleet at the time. AH-64's flew over 18,700hours with a readiness rate of over 90 percent. *One AH-64 was lost to enemy fir*e, but its crew was recovered. Sand was a major enemy of the aircraft, causing serious problems with auxiliary power unit, environmental controls and shaft dirven compressors.



The 20k feet is required to smoke out tourists from Pakistan who sometimes happen to show up in Kargil or later in Siachen when Pakistan violates the authentication of AGPL, delineation and demarcation into LoC it is going to sign for the withdrawl of Indian troops.

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## Omega007

Bl[i]tZ;2919717 said:


> OSCAR should read that the American Air Campaign in the first gulf war begun only after the destruction of radars and enemy air defences by Apache. .
> 
> 
> 
> The 20k feet is required to smoke out tourists from Pakistan who sometimes happen to show up in Kargil or later in Siachen when Pakistan violates the authentication of AGPL, delineation and demarcation into LoC it is going to sign for the withdrawl of Indian troops.



Yeah,LCH was infact built for high altitude close air support.That's why IAF had recomended LCH to carry 600 kg payload at 22k feet whici it did and actually surpassed by far with carrying 800 kg payload to 26k feet during the IOC.But still I think that it would have been better if DRDO could have come up with an armed MALE UAV for that role.
By the way,I know that LCH is a HAL project but they sgould now seriously consider approaching DRDO to develop a mmw radar for LCH.They had tested a mmw seeker for Helina ATGM so making a mmw radar like the Longbow shouldn't be a tough job.

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## IndianArmy

Joe Shearer said:


> In fact, further to your observation about the ineffectiveness of the LCH in mountain terrain, it will be more vulnerable in that terrain. Flying attack helicopters in the mountains is asking to lose a lot of helicopters.



Hey Joe.. Would it still be a nightmare for a Helicopter in Mountain terrains with a maneuvering capability of flying at an extreme angle of 70-80 degree Nose down??


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## SQ8

Bl[i]tZ;2919717 said:


> OSCAR should read that the American Air Campaign in the first gulf war begun only after the destruction of radars and enemy air defences by Apache. .
> 
> 
> 
> The 20k feet is required to smoke out tourists from Pakistan who sometimes happen to show up in Kargil or later in Siachen when Pakistan violates the authentication of AGPL, delineation and demarcation into LoC it is going to sign for the withdrawl of Indian troops.



And Blitz should read up on the strike, what preceded it .. and how it was carried out..
and not at 20000 ft before trying to make a point.

The LCH is not going to face a half baked ADGE in Pakistan, it also has to face a fairly potent one in the north.. 
It and the AH-64 will find themselves facing medium level SAM's...point defence LD-2000 systems.. and the like. 
The LCH along with the Ah-64 will succeed in the mission by employing smart tactics and shooting first before being seen.
Not by flying at 20000 ft to avoid a single MANPAD system.

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## Joe Shearer

IndianArmy said:


> Hey Joe.. Would it still be a nightmare for a Helicopter in Mountain terrains with a maneuvering capability of flying at an extreme angle of 70-80 degree Nose down??




Let me put it to you this way: think about the pilot.

Ask among your Army Aviation friends. Ask from a safe distance.


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## Black Widow

Oscar said:


> And Blitz should read up on the strike, what preceded it .. and how it was carried out..
> and not at 20000 ft before trying to make a point.
> 
> The LCH is not going to face a half baked ADGE in Pakistan, it also has to face a fairly potent one in the north..
> It and the AH-64 will find themselves facing medium level SAM's...point defence LD-2000 systems.. and the like.
> The LCH along with the Ah-64 will succeed in the mission by employing smart tactics and shooting first before being seen.
> Not by flying at 20000 ft to avoid a single MANPAD system.




At Longewala Pakistan had supremacy but they lost, Similarly in 65 We had better IAF but still cause more damage. So it all depends upon strategy.

LCH, ALH, Apache, EuroCopter all are destructible. I will give an example
Suppose India deployed ABM in all major cities, what about minor cities? Pakistani ABM can hit it. Its not old age war where both party come face to face and fight. Its modern war, ppl hit where you are weak. The Helos will not sent on Kamikaze mission, They will be guarded against Man-Pad. SEAD missions will precede before helos enter the hostile land.

Where as in defesive role, no need to afraid of SAMs. Manpad will be taken care by Tanks and Infantry..

P.S.: The Helos will be used by IA aviation wings, which will take help of IAF for SEAD misions.


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## SQ8

Black Widow said:


> At Longewala Pakistan had supremacy but they lost, Similarly in 65 We had better IAF but still cause more damage. So it all depends upon strategy.
> 
> LCH, ALH, Apache, EuroCopter all are destructible. I will give an example
> Suppose India deployed ABM in all major cities, what about minor cities? Pakistani ABM can hit it. Its not old age war where both party come face to face and fight. Its modern war, ppl hit where you are weak. The Helos will not sent on Kamikaze mission, They will be guarded against Man-Pad. SEAD missions will precede before helos enter the hostile land.
> 
> Where as in defesive role, no need to afraid of SAMs. Manpad will be taken care by Tanks and Infantry..
> 
> P.S.: The Helos will be used by IA aviation wings, which will take help of IAF for SEAD misions.



Again, the focus on invulnerability must end for all..
I mean of all the things.. the mighty F-22 ends up killing its own pilots by poisoning their oxygen.
The LCH , or the AH-64 is not MANPAD proof.. but will employ tactics to reduce the threat as much as possible.
for eg.. the AH-64 anti radar strike quoted by the eager beaver here.. was not carried out by AH-64's alone..
they were supported by MH-53 PAVE LOW helicopters carrying IRCM systems and a large cache of flares which they dispensed every now and then to make sure no Iraqi Sam system was able to get a clear shot.

No system operates alone in war.. be it the LCH, MKI or the FGFA...
Each will be dependant on a long list of supporting assets that will ensure that the crafts 100% potential is augmented to make it a 150%.
That is the spectre of Modern war.. its Mano a many mano..
A Chinese J-11 will not just be engaging an MKI, it will alert the Indian ADGE closest to it.. it will alert the supporting EW system.
It will alert the MKI's flight.. and it will alert the Air operations command for that sector..
It will be engaging them all by engaging the MKI.

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## Black Widow

Oscar said:


> Again, the focus on invulnerability must end for all..
> I mean of all the things.. the mighty F-22 ends up killing its own pilots by poisoning their oxygen.
> The LCH , or the AH-64 is not MANPAD proof.. but will employ tactics to reduce the threat as much as possible.
> for eg.. the AH-64 anti radar strike quoted by the eager beaver here.. was not carried out by AH-64's alone..
> they were supported by MH-53 PAVE LOW helicopters carrying IRCM systems and a large cache of flares which they dispensed every now and then to make sure no Iraqi Sam system was able to get a clear shot.
> 
> No system operates alone in war.. be it the LCH, MKI or the FGFA...
> Each will be dependant on a long list of supporting assets that will ensure that the crafts 100% potential is augmented to make it a 150%.
> That is the spectre of Modern war.. its Mano a many mano..
> A Chinese J-11 will not just be engaging an MKI, it will alert the Indian ADGE closest to it.. it will alert the supporting EW system.
> It will alert the MKI's flight.. and it will alert the Air operations command for that sector..
> It will be engaging them all by engaging the MKI.





Right we are on the same page, "Good weapon with Good strategy" Win the war... Cool.. And I think LCH will prove itself as good weapon...


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## Joe Shearer

Black Widow said:


> Right we are on the same page, "Good weapon with Good strategy" Win the war... Cool.. And I think LCH will prove itself as good weapon...



He didn't say that. He said Good Weapons integrated in a Good System with Good Tactics will win a battle.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> The LCH , or the AH-64 is not MANPAD proof.. but will employ tactics to reduce the threat as much as possible.



Maybe interesting in this regard:



> *IAF (Israel AirForce) mulls missile defense system for helicopters*
> 
> Proposal comes in face of growing surface-to-air missile threat against IAF aircraft from the Gaza Strip and Lebanon.
> 
> The air force is looking into installing an active protection system aboard its helicopters that would intercept enemy missiles, similar to a system recently proven in combat on IDF tanks.
> 
> The proposal comes in face of the growing surface-to-air missile threat against IAF aircraft from the Gaza Strip and Lebanon.
> 
> The requirement for such a system was recently issued by the IAF&#8217;s Helicopter Air Directorate in light of the success of the Trophy active protection system developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, which intercepted a rocket-propelled grenade fired at a Merkava Mk 4 tank deployed along the border with the Gaza Strip in March.
> 
> The Trophy system, which weighs 800 kg, would not be appropriate for helicopters since it fires off a cloud of countermeasures that could damage the aircraft&#8217;s rotor. The Trophy consists of radar that detects threats and activates one of two launchers, which discharges a cloud of &#8220;hard-kill&#8221; countermeasures that physically attack incoming threats.
> 
> &#8220;We are looking into a hard-kill system for helicopters that would work like Trophy,&#8221; a senior IAF officer said. &#8220;It is still under review and consideration...



IAF mulls missile defense system for helicopte... JPost - Defense


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## Capt.Popeye

Joe Shearer said:


> In fact, further to your observation about the ineffectiveness of the LCH in mountain terrain, it will be more vulnerable in that terrain. Flying attack helicopters in the mountains is asking to lose a lot of helicopters.



Joe; I would go with that view. The Attack helicopter is analogous to a 'flying tank' to put it over-simplistically. Who is able to operate tanks in the mountains?

In the NE (Arunachal for instance), it will be tough enough for a helicopter pilot to handle weather in the valleys (down-drafts and wind-shears et. al) than to worry about evading ground fire. When any attack helicopter sorties take place in the (high and narrow) mountains, top cover will be a must. Not to mention effective recce pre-ops.
War in that area will strictly work for Infantry 'Pongos'. On another thread here I observed quite some discussion about use of Arty in Higher Reaches. Hardly suitable for that, considering that even siting gun emplacements for large howitzers is not easy. Max. portable howitzers or the ubiquitous field guns.

Ladakh is different, there is some scope for use of Attack Helos. Otherwise they are optimised for the plains and easily undulating terrain where they can use 'nape of the earth' flying to advantage.

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## IndianArmy

Joe Shearer said:


> Let me put it to you this way: think about the pilot.
> 
> Ask among your Army Aviation friends. Ask from a safe distance.



Well the Training imparted plays the role as it must. A Vehicle of such caliber must not be ditched in the terrains where its built for.


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## Bl[i]tZ

Oscar said:


> And Blitz should read up on the strike, what preceded it .. and how it was carried out..
> and not at 20000 ft before trying to make a point.
> 
> The LCH is not going to face a half baked ADGE in Pakistan, it also has to face a fairly potent one in the north..
> It and the AH-64 will find themselves facing medium level SAM's...point defence LD-2000 systems.. and the like.
> The LCH along with the Ah-64 will succeed in the mission by employing smart tactics and shooting first before being seen.
> Not by flying at 20000 ft to avoid a single MANPAD system.



I was actually talking about two differing things - a normal strike mission in the plains and and ability to hit at 20k feet as well (the latter is an additional capability not the primary one).

Not trying to be provocative but even after all the ADs you mentioned, Americans just took out two posts of PA on the western border, without taking a single hit. Apaches struck for over 45 min, PA didn't have anything substantial to hit back. (May be that's just western border)


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## SQ8

Bl[i]tZ;2921878 said:


> I was actually talking about two differing things - a normal strike mission in the plains and and ability to hit at 20k feet as well (the latter is an additional capability not the primary one).
> 
> Not trying to be provocative but even after all the ADs you mentioned, Americans just took out two posts of PA on the western border, without taking a single hit. Apaches struck for over 45 min, *PA didn't have anything substantial to hit back. (May be that's just western border)*



No AAA, No MANPADS.. 
think.

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## Tshering22

Oscar said:


> Yes, but would it not be fun for some combat aircraft to shoot a chugging helicopter at those altitudes.
> There's a reason the word "_layered air defence_" was coined.



So you are saying that you'd do another Kargil intentionally? That's the only circumstance under which LCH will be used to its full potential---- hight altitude aerial combat.

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## Joe Shearer

IndianArmy said:


> Well the Training imparted plays the role as it must. A Vehicle of such caliber must not be ditched in the terrains where its built for.



OK, let's work this out in some detail.

There are three battlefield hazards facing any helicopter in the mountains. High mountains and lower ones alike, for two of them; high mountains alone for a third.

First, weather and flying conditions. Mountain terrain is windy terrain, with wind of fluctuating strength flowing across natural features - ridges, slopes, ravines - in unpredictable manner. Helicopters are difficult, unstable flying objects. Unlike older planes, when power is cut off, they don't just glide down, they plummet, like bricks. In such uncertain wind conditions, pilots find it a full-time job to keep in the air. There are unexpected pulls and pushes, and a high state of alert is needed to merely keep flying.

Second, the enemy. The same uneven terrain that builds uncertain winds also provides a thousand and one nooks and crannies, folds in the surface and natural walls which hide shooters and their (typically now) MANPADs. After coping with wind and weather conditions quite different from the plains, pilots need to watch out for a camouflaged soldier popping out from nowhere. This, too, is substantially different from the plains, where hiding places can be spotted early.

Third, in the case of the Himalayas and the Karakorum, whiteout. Flying in snowy conditions is particularly dangerous because it is unrelieved white all around. A pilot loses orientation. It is difficult to gauge whether the machine is flying straight, at an angle, or tilted. The artificial horizon helps, but every second glancing at an artificial horizon is a second not looking out for a cliff face straight ahead.

For these reasons, flying in general in the mountains is a *****. Pilots don't like the idea. Flying an attack helicopter adds 
To the tension. On top of everything else, you have targets and targets that shoot back. Attack helicopters aren't meant for the hills. In fact, listening to wise guys talking about what airpower could have done for the IA in 62 makes me feel ill. It could have done nothing, but that's a different thread.

It is a different thing that normal helicopters labour at altitudes like Saltoro. The Dhruv was specially engined for that extreme high level performance. The LCH, its derivative, handles heights as well. What it means is not normal attack helicopter operations. Instead of flying along the nap of the earth, instead of lurking in hollows or depressions and suddenly bobbing up with cannons blazing is not the norm any more, though it can be done on occasion. Instead what is likelier is closely coordinated action as mobile, airborne artillery, either offering covering fire to an assault team, or pouring in counter-preparatory fire on an assault team about to attack our own positions. The high altitude bit is not to act as an assault heli any longer, but more to provide artillery support where the other guys had never expected artillery support.

We could talk about these scenarios if you like.

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## Big Boss

Oscar said:


> And Blitz should read up on the strike, what preceded it .. and how it was carried out..
> and not at 20000 ft before trying to make a point.
> 
> The LCH is not going to face a half baked ADGE in Pakistan, it also has to face a fairly potent one in the north..
> It and the AH-64 will find themselves facing medium level SAM's...point defence LD-2000 systems.. and the like.
> The LCH along with the Ah-64 will succeed in the mission by employing smart tactics and shooting first before being seen.
> Not by flying at 20000 ft to avoid a single MANPAD system.




To wipe out these threats we have inducted 2 regiments of Brahmos missiles on pakistan border.

Yes, 110 missiles are already inducted by Indian Army.

And not to forget air launched Brahmos and Prahaar missile.


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## Joe Shearer

Big Boss said:


> To wipe out these threats we have inducted 2 regiments of Brahmos missiles on pakistan border.
> 
> Yes, 110 missiles are already inducted by Indian Army.
> 
> And not to forget air launched Brahmos and Prahaar missile.



Sorry, I missed something somewhere.

How will cruise missiles and surface-to-surface missiles (even launched from flying platforms) affect this situation? Do you mean that the SAM sites and the LD-2000 sites will be targeted by these?

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## SQ8

Tshering22 said:


> So you are saying that you'd do another Kargil intentionally? That's the only circumstance under which LCH will be used to its full potential---- hight altitude aerial combat.



calm down sweetheart.. not everything is a competition.
I suggest you read through again instead of finding a post that triggers your jingoism and makes you come out guns blazing.

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## thinkingcap81

Joe Shearer said:


> Attack helicopters aren't meant for the hills. In fact, *listening to wise guys talking about what airpower could have done for the IA in 62* makes me feel ill. *It could have done nothing*, but that's a different thread.



That is against what has been fed to non-professionals like me. Thanks for letting us know.

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## Abingdonboy

Tshering22 said:


> So you are saying that you'd do another Kargil intentionally? That's the only circumstance under which LCH will be used to its full potential---- hight altitude aerial combat.



Mate high-altitude warfare is but one of the serious the LCH can be employed. Just because the service ceiling was specifically called for doesn't mean this is the ONLY scenario the LCH will be employed but this is just another of the thousands upon thousands of criteria the IAF/IA has outlined and called for.

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## Capt.Popeye

Joe Shearer said:


> OK, let's work this out in some detail.





> First, weather and flying conditions. Mountain terrain is windy terrain, with wind of fluctuating strength flowing across natural features - ridges, slopes, ravines - in unpredictable manner. Helicopters are difficult, unstable flying objects. Unlike older planes, when power is cut off, they don't just glide down, they plummet, like bricks. In such uncertain wind conditions, pilots find it a full-time job to keep in the air. There are unexpected pulls and pushes, and a high state of alert is needed to merely keep flying.



That is a nice one. A Naval Chopper pilot friend of mine once said to me " I fly a BRICK, an extremely manueverable BRICK; and it'll keep flying till I lose control". Which according to me, says it very well. Helicopters are the most unstable flying machines ever made. Mountain flying is one thing, even flying around in close proximity to a single ship at sea can sometimes be difficult especially in a hover. The structure of a ship especially a large ship can play tricks with the wind forces in that area. To read about the "Joys of Flying in Moutainous Terrain" like the North-East read the blog by CYCLIC an ex-IAF chopper pilot. His innate sense of humor some-what lightens the hair-raising experience that it must actually be.



> Second, the enemy. The same uneven terrain that builds uncertain winds also provides a thousand and one nooks and crannies, folds in the surface and natural walls which hide shooters and their (typically now) MANPADs. After coping with wind and weather conditions quite different from the plains, pilots need to watch out for a camouflaged soldier popping out from nowhere. This, too, is substantially different from the plains, where hiding places can be spotted early.
> 
> 
> 
> For these reasons, flying in general in the mountains is a *****. Pilots don't like the idea. Flying an attack helicopter adds
> To the tension. On top of everything else, you have targets and targets that shoot back. Attack helicopters aren't meant for the hills.



There is a nice account I read some place about helicopter flying in Afghanistan written by an American. While it has been somewhat easier for them than it had been for the Soviets; because the stingers have gone from the equation, still its not easy nor is it fun. 




> In fact, listening to wise guys talking about what airpower could have done for the IA in 62 makes me feel ill. It could have done nothing, but that's a different thread.



The IAF could have done something- fly the planes around and create an infernal noise. That might have at least sounded scary. 

But there were no helicopter gunships then, just some spindly Bell G-47s and rickety Sikorsky S-55s and Mil-4s. That can be the subject of another discussion.

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## IndianArmy

Joe Shearer said:


> OK, let's work this out in some detail.
> 
> There are three battlefield hazards facing any helicopter in the mountains. High mountains and lower ones alike, for two of them; high mountains alone for a third.
> 
> First, weather and flying conditions. Mountain terrain is windy terrain, with wind of fluctuating strength flowing across natural features - ridges, slopes, ravines - in unpredictable manner. Helicopters are difficult, unstable flying objects. Unlike older planes, when power is cut off, they don't just glide down, they plummet, like bricks. In such uncertain wind conditions, pilots find it a full-time job to keep in the air. There are unexpected pulls and pushes, and a high state of alert is needed to merely keep flying.



Well that was quite good points you have raised. Mountains aren't the optimal helicopter environment and I do understand that. Not all mountainous terrains have wind dense enough to disturb an attack helicopters path. I understand that a Helicopter does not glide but it certainly has a feature called auto-rotation ie.a clutch automatically disconnects the engine from the gearbox in case of an engine failure making the tail and main rotors to go on a free run as the air rushes through from a descending helicopter allowing a Skilled pilot to land safely.

Not to forget, engine failure landings are a part of sortie curriculum. You are free to ask if you have an Army aviation friend.



Joe Shearer said:


> Second, the enemy. The same uneven terrain that builds uncertain winds also provides a thousand and one nooks and crannies, folds in the surface and natural walls which hide shooters and their (typically now) MANPADs. After coping with wind and weather conditions quite different from the plains, pilots need to watch out for a camouflaged soldier popping out from nowhere. This, too, is substantially different from the plains, where hiding places can be spotted early.



Isn't this where Thermal Imaging comes into play, and please do not mix up gunner with the pilot. Pilot has an eye on the terrains and the gunner on the enemy so there is no question of confusion here.



Joe Shearer said:


> Third, in the case of the Himalayas and the Karakorum, whiteout. Flying in snowy conditions is particularly dangerous because it is unrelieved white all around. A pilot loses orientation. It is difficult to gauge whether the machine is flying straight, at an angle, or tilted. The artificial horizon helps, but every second glancing at an artificial horizon is a second not looking out for a cliff face straight ahead.




There is no confusion for the pilot in the Karakorum or Himalayan terrains if the helicopter is straight or upside down with sophisticated State-of-the-Art Automatic Flight Control Systems in place. The possible problem which the crew might face in such terrains is Aircraft icing but modern attack choppers do have anti icing capabilities.

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## Joe Shearer

IndianArmy said:


> Well that was quite good points you have raised. Mountains aren't the optimal helicopter environment and I do understand that. Not all mountainous terrains have wind dense enough to disturb an attack helicopters path. I understand that a Helicopter does not glide but it certainly has a feature called auto-rotation ie.a clutch automatically disconnects the engine from the gearbox in case of an engine failure making the tail and main rotors to go on a free run as the air rushes through from a descending helicopter allowing a Skilled pilot to land safely.
> 
> Not to forget, engine failure landings are a part of sortie curriculum. You are free to ask if you have an Army aviation friend.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't this where Thermal Imaging comes into play, and please do not mix up gunner with the pilot. Pilot has an eye on the terrains and the gunner on the enemy so there is no question of confusion here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no confusion for the pilot in the Karakorum or Himalayan terrains if the helicopter is straight or upside down with sophisticated State-of-the-Art Automatic Flight Control Systems in place. The possible problem which the crew might face in such terrains is Aircraft icing but modern attack choppers do have anti icing capabilities.



You may be right.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

*Modified TD-2 flying around in Bangalore.*

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## IndianArmy

Joe Shearer said:


> You may be right.



I really Dont know Joe. Never been an Enthu of Aviation  .

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## Joe Shearer

IndianArmy said:


> I really Dont know Joe. Never been an Enthu of Aviation  .



No answer to these really . I used to lead an organization working on software of various types. You never can tell what a pilot will do until he does it.

Personally I would use these helos as airborne artillery platforms, able to access targets land-based systems can not.

Who can tell what a pilot decides he can do?

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## Gessler

These attack helos can be a decisive threat for enemy armor. Dedicated attack helicopters
like the Apache-type were designed to shread the threat of large enemy armored forces since
the Cold War and have promisingly done so ever since.

If I was given a choice of taking a column of attack helicopters or a regiment of MBTs, I'd choose
the chopper option anyday.


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## satishkumarcsc

gessler said:


> These attack helos can be a decisive threat for enemy armor. Dedicated attack helicopters
> like the Apache-type were designed to shread the threat of large enemy armored forces since
> the Cold War and have promisingly done so ever since.
> 
> If I was given a choice of taking a column of attack helicopters or a regiment of MBTs, I'd choose
> the chopper option anyday.



Well I would pick both to work in synergy insead of sending the attack chopper alone.


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## sancho

gessler said:


> These attack helos can be a decisive threat for enemy armor. Dedicated attack helicopters
> like the Apache-type were designed to shread the threat of large enemy armored forces since
> the Cold War and have promisingly done so ever since.
> 
> If I was given a choice of taking a column of attack helicopters or a regiment of MBTs, I'd choose
> the chopper option anyday.



Actually, fighters are the way bigger threat for tanks, since they can carry even higher numbers of rockets or anti tank missiles and even drones have credible anti tank capability today. The days of the massive tank wars are clearly over, today tanks are big targets, that have various threats to counter, since even militia with RPGs or smaller ATGMs was able to destroy very modern and expensive tanks without much trouble.
It is true that India faces big armies with 1000s of tanks, but with IAF capabilities, Rudra and LCH in IAs airwing + in future armed drones, the tank threat is way less than it was in past decades.

P.S. Take the Libyan war as an example where the allied forces easily was able to take out numbers of tanks with fighters and drones only.

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## Capt.Popeye

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well I would pick both to work in synergy insead of sending the attack chopper alone.



That is precisely what the thrust of the recent Exercises in the west have been. Helicopters working in synergy with Tanks and ICVs with Top Cover by Aircraft when needed, and Battlefield Surveillance and Monitoring by UAVs and Sats. That is what future warfare in that terrain is likely to be. Little 'dug-in' stuff and fixed arty bombardments. Hence also the shift towards MBRLs and Missiles.

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## IndianArmy

Joe Shearer said:


> No answer to these really . I used to lead an organization working on software of various types. You never can tell what a pilot will do until he does it.
> 
> Personally I would use these helos as airborne artillery platforms, able to access targets land-based systems can not.
> 
> Who can tell what a pilot decides he can do?



Indeed. A machine's capability lies in materializing everything the pilot thinks he should in a situation, but the final decision is always of the Pilot's.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

*Armed LCH TD-2*

They add more fairing.

Posted by BlueDot_in_Space, decided to put it in the bigger thread.

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## keerthan

dis one project DRDO has done exceedingly well.........i real thank them for there efforts 
way to gooooo


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## sancho

keerthan said:


> dis one project DRDO has done exceedingly well.........i real thank them for there efforts
> way to gooooo



Yes, by not or only minor participation in it!  HAL is responsible for Dhruv and LCH.

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## SamantK

FLASH! Light Combat Helicopter Sea-level Trials From Tomorrow
Thursday, June 28, 2012

India's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is all set to begin a week of sea-level trials early tomorrow morning at Tambaram, on the outskirts of Chennai. A prototype of the LCH landed at Tambaram today along with a chase helicopter. The trials will include speed calibration and manoeuverability trials. The trials which could stretch to ten days will include generic performance and handling at sea-level (Bangalore is at 3,000 feet above sea level), calibration of the LCH's air speed measurement system and measurement of forces in terms of stress on various components of the platform.

Livefist wishes the test team the very best for the week ahead!

Incidentally -- something big to look out for soon is the third prototype of the LCH, which my sources tell me will be the defining shape and configuration of the final LCH. I'm told it will look significantly different in terms of dimensions too.

Livefist: FLASH! Light Combat Helicopter Sea-level Trials From Tomorrow


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## explorer9

How would an expert rate LCH against TAI/AW T129 ? can anyone please provide comparative analysis based on technology used in both CH's


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## kurup

explorer9 said:


> How would an expert rate LCH against TAI/AW T129 ? can anyone please provide comparative analysis based on technology used in both CH's

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## bloo

FLASH! Light Combat Helicopter Sea-level Trials From Tomorrow(June, 29th, 2012)








> India's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is all set to begin a week of sea-level trials early tomorrow morning at Tambaram, on the outskirts of Chennai. A prototype of the LCH landed at Tambaram today along with a Mi-8 chase helicopter from the Yelahanka air force station. The trials which could stretch to ten days will include generic performance and handling at sea-level (Bangalore is at 3,000 feet above sea level), calibration of the LCH's air speed measurement system and measurement of forces in terms of stress on various components of the platform.
> 
> Livefist wishes the test team the very best for the week ahead!
> 
> Incidentally -- something big to look out for soon is the third prototype of the LCH, which my sources tell me will be the defining shape and configuration of the final LCH. I'm told it will look significantly different in terms of dimensions too.



Livefist: FLASH! Light Combat Helicopter Sea-level Trials From Tomorrow

 = LCH


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## SamantK

^^^^ already posted, post #669


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## bloo

octopus said:


>



I remember an LCH pilot in some interview saying that during the Kargil War the Pakistani troops were stationed on hilltops and none of their weapons were able reach them properly, thus the requirement for the LCH, which will be able to reach atop hilltops, fly in a high altitude and be extremely maneuverable.
That is the reason why it has a better service ceiling than the other comparative helicopters.


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## Black Widow

samantk said:


> Both are Indian so we will leave that offender for one, what say






IndoUS said:


> Its develop by HAL and not DRDO, But DRDO may also have a hand in the development so I guess its fine.





I got chance to meet some HAL officials, They were very Angry the DRDO handled LCA project. The HAL wants to go alone for further projects. 

I assume Major part of AMCA project will be under HAL control now. HAL wants DRDO to work for only subsystem.


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## bloo

EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: Light Combat Helicopter Sea-level Trials


































> Exclusive photos of the ongoing sea-level trials of the second prototype of India's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) on the outskirts of the Chennai. Check out that sexy cockpit shot as the pilots near the East coast. The last photo, also taken from the LCH, shows the IAF chase Mi-8 from Yelahanka air force station that's flying with and observing/recording the LCH during the current round of sea-level trials. The trials will continue for another 7-9 days.



Livefist: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: Light Combat Helicopter Sea-level Trials

These are TD-2s Shiv also said in his earlier post about TD-3s.


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## HardcoreIndian1947

Kudos to Chinese people for developing sophisticated technology in defence.May be India(we) are behind you .If I am not wrong j-10 project was initiated by Deng Xiaping in 1988 and its first prototype was rolled out in 1997.Now to your one point about the LCA engine you commented that we are seeking foreign help . Then I dont know why the hell you fitted your Joke-10 with Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31FN turbofan engine. You are the second biggest economy you can rule the entire world that's you may be were little tired to fit joke-10 with chini made engines. 
beaware Chinese goods doesn't come with warranty give proper parachutes to your pilots dont know when your plane stop in mid air hahahahhaha

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## karan21

inside hal lch

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## Abingdonboy

karan21 said:


> inside hal lch



Looks more like inside the ALH rather than LCH IMHO as this doesn't look to be a tandem cockpit.

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## karan21

Abingdonboy said:


> Looks more like inside the ALH rather than LCH IMHO as this doesn't look to be a tandem cockpit.



no this is lch dude. lch has those yellow lines in there. look at the pic of inside lch at 6500m.


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## Abingdonboy

karan21 said:


> no this is lch dude. lch has those yellow lines in there. look at the pic of inside lch at 6500m.



I'm still pretty sure this is the ALH. The colour is immaterial, that is merely the primer and so can be present on any platfomr especilly if it is on test. The postion of the seat just does not indicate it is in a tandem cockpit- the switchboard to the left of the pilot is NOT present on the LCH but IS not the ALH and if it were then the rear pilot would be slightly offset to the right and not in the centre of the cockpit (which is not how it is). Also look at the window/door to the left of the pilot, the windows/doors on the LCH are much larger (wider) than this and do not have the horizontal metal strips but the ALH doors DO:








This is the LCH, lock at the cockpit- looks nothing like the layout in the pic but looks identical to ALH:

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## karan21

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm still pretty sure this is the ALH. The colour is immaterial, that is merely the primer and so can be present on any platfomr especilly if it is on test. The postion of the seat just does not indicate it is in a tandem cockpit- the switchboard to the left of the pilot is NOT present on the LCH but IS not the ALH and if it were then the rear pilot would be slightly offset to the right and not in the centre of the cockpit (which is not how it is). Also look at the window/door to the left of the pilot, the windows/doors on the LCH are much larger (wider) than this and do not have the horizontal metal strips but the ALH doors DO:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the LCH, lock at the cockpit- looks nothing like the layout in the pic but looks identical to ALH:



yeah ur right, good one

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## Vasily Zaytsev

karan21 said:


> inside hal lch


 

Which helmet is that?

Dash ?


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Look at the visor carefull and you will come to know what it is.

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## Vasily Zaytsev

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Look at the visor carefull and you will come to know what it is.


 


I am still finding it difficult to identify ............


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> I am still finding it difficult to identify ............



Sorry i wasnt reffering to you but to the above posted pic on whether it is ALH or LCH.

I am also finding it hard to identify but i dont think its DASH.


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## Abingdonboy

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Sorry i wasnt reffering to you but to the above posted pic on whether it is ALH or LCH.
> 
> I am also finding it hard to identify but i dont think its DASH.





Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Which helmet is that?
> 
> Dash ?



AFAIK DASH is a fixed wing a/cs HMDS and not used on helos. I am led to believe though that soon IAF/IA will be inducting TOPOWL-I HMDS for a number of roatary wing assets including ALH which will be used in conjunction with QUADEYE NVGs. IMHO this is the standard helo helmet used by IAF/IA and nothing special.



COLDHEARTED AVIATOR said:


> Look at the visor carefull and you will come to know what it is.


 

Good one- could have used this proof instead of my long-winded explanation!!

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## Abingdonboy



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## Nishan_101

bloo said:


> EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: Light Combat Helicopter Sea-level Trials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livefist: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: Light Combat Helicopter Sea-level Trials
> 
> These are TD-2s Shiv also said in his earlier post about TD-3s.


 
Are BDs looking to buy ANZA MKIIs from Pakistan to counter INDIAN choopers and UAVs???


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## kurup

^^^^^ To counter helicopters , they should buy something good like 9K38 Igla or french mistral


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## Nishan_101

octopus said:


> ^^^^^ To counter helicopters , they should buy something good like 9K38 Igla or french mistral


 
Thanks for incouraging the BDs to shoot down the low flying UFOs.


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## kurup

Nishan_101 said:


> Thanks for incouraging the BDs to shoot down the low flying UFOs.



I hope my encouraging will help you guys find some courage to shoot down predators also......

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## Nishan_101

octopus said:


> I hope my encouraging will help you guys find some courage to shoot down predators also......


 
That is impossible because of the fact that ($$$$$$$) we can discuss!!!!


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## danger007

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Which helmet is that?
> 
> Dash ?



with that helmet that man looks like a alien inside the UFO..... coming to eat enemies


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## IndianArmy

Nishan_101 said:


> Are BDs looking to buy ANZA MKIIs from Pakistan to counter INDIAN choopers and UAVs???



LCH's Service ceiling is 6,500 m (21,300 ft) which Neither the Anza MKII's nor the Anza Mk-IIIs can reach by both range and Altitude. Sorry for waking you up. 

In brief, Your Missile has to be at the mercy of the helicopter to even brush past it. No use of having Anza's in the military arsenal especially of those who look to counter a helicopter of LCH's caliber.

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## Water Car Engineer

IndianArmy said:


> LCH's Service ceiling is 6,500 m (21,300 ft) which Neither the Anza MKII's nor the Anza Mk-IIIs can reach by both range and Altitude. Sorry for waking you up.



Lmao, do you think the LCH will be going that high in a combat scenario in thar all of a sudden? Siachen Glacier isn't even that high.

Even though Nishan is kinda trolling, those portable surface-to-air missile are a very serious threat to any attack helicopter....

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## IndianArmy

Sir LurkaLot said:


> Lmao, do you think the LCH will be going that high in a combat scenario in thar all of a sudden? Siachen Glacier isn't even that high.
> 
> Even though Nishan is kinda trolling, those portable surface-to-air missile are a very serious threat to any attack helicopter....



Why not?? As long as it dosent stall. The Missiles are indeed a threat, but, would the Military thinkers and planners make the helicopter vulnerable to attacks, knowing the range and limitations of the product in the Enemies Military arsenal, especially when the Helicopter is capable of evading it by sheer performance? 

War is the birthplace of an Idea and as usual necessity its mother.


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## karan21

IndianArmy said:


> Why not?? As long as it dosent stall. The Missiles are indeed a threat, but, would the Military thinkers and planners make the helicopter vulnerable to attacks, knowing the range and limitations of the product in the Enemies Military arsenal, especially when the Helicopter is capable of evading it?



what makes u think that missile is not a threat to this helicopter? it can easily be shot down with it. even a man holding a gun in his hand can be a threat to a helicopter in a combat scnerio


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## IndianArmy

karan21 said:


> what makes u think that missile is not a threat to this helicopter? it can easily be shot down with it. even a man holding a gun in his hand can be a threat to a helicopter in a combat scnerio



A boy with a stone too is a threat at times if the war is fought in an old fashioned manner of fighting without proper intelligence.. If there is a flaw in intelligence not even the best of machines can save u.


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## karan21

IndianArmy said:


> A boy with a stone too is a threat at times if the war is fought in an old fashioned manner of fighting without proper intelligence.. If there is a flaw in intelligence not even the best of machines can save u.




my frind i dont know about the stone, but that freaking missile will the nightmare of any combat plane polit.


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## IndianArmy

karan21 said:


> my frind i dont know about the stone, but that freaking missile will the nightmare of any combat plane polit.



Indeed if it is in its strike range and anyways I was not questing the authenticity of the Missile's in general but the specific Anzas.


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## Sergi

karan21 said:


> my frind i dont know about the stone, but that freaking missile will the nightmare of any combat plane polit.


That's why attack Helis fly is herd and not alone and modern Helis come with counter measures. Let's hope LCH too get those CM


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## shubhamkumar

It has got perfect cm as of now


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## Joe Shearer

shubhamkumar said:


> It has got perfect cm as of now



So encouraging to hear that.

Perhaps we should put you in one of them and shoot MANPADs at you.


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## Capt.Popeye

Joe Shearer said:


> So encouraging to hear that.
> 
> Perhaps we should put you in one of them and shoot MANPADs at you.



That certainly is an amusing idea!

However to bring things into a right perspective, while a MANPAD is certainly an ever-present and credible threat to a Helo; it does'nt follow that a Helo is automatically neutralised by a MANPAD. 
That said, a MANPAD (*if*) successfully launched, has an extremely favorable cost-benefit ratio going for it. While on the other hand, a Helo (lke the LCH) is a huge force-multiplier, till its neutralised (or absent). The reality is both weapons have capabilities and functions alongside vulnerabilities built-in to them. Hence their designed capabilities will be constantly reviewed and refined. 

Another thing that came up in this thread: the use of Helos (like LCH) in packs. While they will certainly be used in some numbers ( upwards of 2s and 4s), we are unlikely to see their use in 'hordes' aka the famous scene in "Apocalypse Now". Not in the South Asian context and not for some more time. AFAIK, that kind of tactics have not been perfected yet.

It will be some kind of cross between present-day South Asian AF tactics and Armor Squadron level manuevers. That seems to be the present state of affairs.


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## Joe Shearer

Capt.Popeye said:


> That certainly is an amusing idea!
> 
> However to bring things into a right perspective, while a MANPAD is certainly an ever-present and credible threat to a Helo; it does'nt follow that a Helo is automatically neutralised by a MANPAD.
> That said, a MANPAD (*if*) successfully launched, has an extremely favorable cost-benefit ratio going for it. While on the other hand, a Helo (lke the LCH) is a huge force-multiplier, till its neutralised (or absent). The reality is both weapons have capabilities and functions alongside vulnerabilities built-in to them. Hence their designed capabilities will be constantly reviewed and refined.
> 
> Another thing that came up in this thread: the use of Helos (like LCH) in packs. While they will certainly be used in some numbers ( upwards of 2s and 4s), we are unlikely to see their use in 'hordes' aka the famous scene in "Apocalypse Now". Not in the South Asian context and not for some more time. AFAIK, that kind of tactics have not been perfected yet.
> 
> It will be some kind of cross between present-day South Asian AF tactics and Armor Squadron level manuevers. That seems to be the present state of affairs.



I personally believe that we should throw away our tanks, and shift to a combination of troop- and cargo-carrying choppers, attack helicopters, escort fighters, missile carrying drones, and multiple AWACS equivalent helicopters networked seamlessly.

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## karan.1970

Joe Shearer said:


> I personally believe that we should throw away our tanks, and shift to a combination of troop- and cargo-carrying choppers, attack helicopters, escort fighters, missile carrying drones, and multiple AWACS equivalent helicopters networked seamlessly.



But there are climate conditions where Helis cant operate.. But a little rain never hurts a beast like a T90 or an Arjun

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## Skull and Bones

Joe Shearer said:


> I personally believe that we should throw away our tanks, and shift to a combination of troop- and cargo-carrying choppers, attack helicopters, escort fighters, missile carrying drones, and multiple AWACS equivalent helicopters networked seamlessly.



Don't you think that'll be a strategic blunder? No matter how much air superiority you achieve you don't win a war unless you put your foot on the ground. And taking away tanks from armies will be like taking away their shield in the frontline. isn't it?

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## Joe Shearer

Skull and Bones said:


> Don't you think that'll be a strategic blunder? No matter how much air superiority you achieve you don't win a war unless you put your foot on the ground. And taking away tanks from armies will be like taking away their shield in the frontline. isn't it?



Why not carry the soldiers along? That's all that we need to do!

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## sancho

Skull and Bones said:


> Don't you think that'll be a strategic blunder? No matter how much air superiority you achieve *you don't win a war unless you put your foot on the ground*. And taking away tanks from armies will be like taking away their shield in the frontline. isn't it?



True, but the days of big tank wars are over and troops are mainly carried in lighter, faster and more mobile ways. Today wheeled tank destroyers, or light tanks offer the same firepower as MBTs, but are more suited for urban warfare and way more mobile to be deployed via air transport. Big MBTs today are mainly big targets that can be taken out by combat helicopter or fighters, but as well as from ground forces with RPGs or ATGMs, that are available in high numbers. Just look what happend to the Iraqi or Libyan tanks (their strategy change to armed pickups, which were hard to take out by fighters), when they didn't had air superiority anymore, or what happend to the Israeli Merkava MBTs against simple ground forces in Lebanon?

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## Water Car Engineer

sancho said:


> True, but the days of big tank wars are over and troops are mainly carried in lighter, faster and more mobile ways.



Not with India and Pakistan in the Thar. Both will be field large amounts of tanks.

If tanks are irrelevant, strategist all around the world would think so too. Which they don't.

Tanks still have a place in the battlefield. Of course they'll need the proper support for them to be effective.

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## BlueDot_in_Space



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## Dandpatta

I am no military expert so kindly excuse my ignorance but the likelihood of conventional tank warfare with tanks facing each other (Indian-Pakistani) are perhaps history. Guerilla, proxy wars, infiltration, damage to selective collateral are the kinds of scenarios that are more likely than wasting millions / billions on Al-Khalids/Arjuns and other dick measuring stuff. I must say, whatever the Taliban and its supporters do (and what the Viet Cong did a 3 decades back), to bleed the Americans and Nato forces is a LOUD AND CLEAR example of what a force with minimal hardware can do to blow a big dent in a superpower's might.

IMHO - tanks compared to helicopter platforms have a slower mobility - and an air wing with a faster "force multiplier" is better , isn't it? 

On the other hand, could anyone do the maths for me - 

Per kilometer (given formidable terrain) - 
1) what would be the COST for fuel for a tank (say Arjun Mk1, T-90 - versus (troop carrying) Rudra and (arms only) Apache )?
2) what would be the cost for fuel for an Al-Khalid - versus Pakistani Apache ?


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## scarcry

Dandpatta said:


> I am no military expert so kindly excuse my ignorance but the likelihood of conventional tank warfare with tanks facing each other (Indian-Pakistani) are perhaps history. Guerilla, proxy wars, infiltration, damage to selective collateral are the kinds of scenarios that are more likely than wasting millions / billions on Al-Khalids/Arjuns and other dick measuring stuff. I must say, whatever the Taliban and its supporters do (and what the Viet Cong did a 3 decades back), to bleed the Americans and Nato forces is a LOUD AND CLEAR example of what a force with minimal hardware can do to blow a big dent in a superpower's might.
> 
> IMHO - tanks compared to helicopter platforms have a slower mobility - and an air wing with a faster "force multiplier" is better , isn't it?
> 
> On the other hand, could anyone do the maths for me -
> 
> Per kilometer (given formidable terrain) -
> 1) what would be the COST for fuel for a tank (say Arjun Mk1, T-90 - versus (troop carrying) Rudra and (arms only) Apache )?
> 2) what would be the cost for fuel for an Al-Khalid - versus Pakistani Apache ?



"GOOD MORNING! You are listening to our Taliban Helpline. Dr. Hellfire is going to speak to us all on PTSD. Now back to Mullah XYZ"

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/files/images/090407_85788051.jpg


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## 帅的一匹

Tank is a must in the war, or you don't have anything to cover your soldiers. helicopter is very fragile facing surface to air firepower, both has pros and cons. You just can't say which one is better.


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## skysthelimit

Dandpatta said:


> I am no military expert so kindly excuse my ignorance but the likelihood of conventional tank warfare with tanks facing each other (Indian-Pakistani) are perhaps history. Guerilla, proxy wars, infiltration, damage to selective collateral are the kinds of scenarios that are more likely than wasting millions / billions on Al-Khalids/Arjuns and other dick measuring stuff. I must say, whatever the Taliban and its supporters do (and what the Viet Cong did a 3 decades back), to bleed the Americans and Nato forces is a LOUD AND CLEAR example of what a force with minimal hardware can do to blow a big dent in a superpower's might.
> 
> IMHO - tanks compared to helicopter platforms have a slower mobility - and an air wing with a faster "force multiplier" is better , isn't it?
> 
> On the other hand, could anyone do the maths for me -
> 
> Per kilometer (given formidable terrain) -
> 1) what would be the COST for fuel for a tank (say Arjun Mk1, T-90 - versus (troop carrying) Rudra and (arms only) Apache )?
> 2) what would be the cost for fuel for an Al-Khalid - versus Pakistani Apache ?



A platform which -
1. Is Anti-infantry
2. Is Anti-infrastructure (both Civilian and military)
3. Is Armored (Duh)
4. Is Anti-Air (using barrel launched missiles)
6. Fast across different terrain types
7. NBC protected
8. Raises the morale of your troops while severely damaging that of your enemies (even the Mujahideens who were so good at taking down Rusky tanks would be scared shitless when they hard the rumble of a tank engine)

That's just what I can think off the top of my head - and you want to eliminate it in favor of god knows what!

Of course Tanks have limitations - and even modern ATGMs will have limited effect against the newer tanks with Active Protection suites - but that's true for all warfighting machinery. Frankly, all military action is a big f***ing game of rock, paper, scissor.

So no sense in retiring one of the versatile modern military equipments.


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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


>




What's the source of this load config?


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## BLEND

sancho said:


> What's the source of this load config?



He might have taken that image from this Blog.

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## BlueDot_in_Space

sancho said:


> What's the source of this load config?



http://www.aeroindiaseminar.com/ima...sad Sampathl Paper on LCH_Aero India 2011.pdf



BLEND said:


> He might have taken that image from this Blog.

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## sancho

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> http://www.aeroindiaseminar.com/ima...sad Sampathl Paper on LCH_Aero India 2011.pdf



Excellent, I was searching for such infos!

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## BLEND

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> http://www.aeroindiaseminar.com/ima...sad Sampathl Paper on LCH_Aero India 2011.pdf



Good find

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## kam83

BlueDot_in_Space said:


>


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## sudhir007

may be we can use M299 Missile Launcher


----------



## sancho

Seems like we develop our own:






Livefist: DEFEXPO: India's Air-launched ATGM HELINA Close Up

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## Abingdonboy

BlueDot_in_Space said:


>



QUAD HELINA launcher on inner hardpoints and twin launchers on the outer stations- Nice! I had been worried the LCH would be limited to only being able to carry 8 ASM (Helinas) with 4 twin tube launchers. Seems DRDO are devloping/have delvoped a Quad Helina launch tube.


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## KS

Abingdonboy said:


> QUAD HELINA launcher on inner hardpoints and twin launchers on the outer stations- Nice! I had been worried the LCH would be limited to only being able to carry 8 ASM (Helinas) with 4 twin tube launchers. Seems DRDO are devloping/have delvoped a Quad Helina launch tube.



The quad launchers are not for HELINA IMO but for Lahat..like this

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## Abingdonboy

KS said:


> The quad launchers are not for HELINA IMO but for Lahat..like this


It is the HELINA ASM that the LCH is eventually meant to carry is it not? I've not heard much wrt the LAHAT being used on the LCH.


----------



## KS

Abingdonboy said:


> It is the HELINA ASM that the LCH is eventually meant to carry is it not? I've not heard much wrt the LAHAT being used on the LCH.



It is the HELINA which is supposed to arm Rudra and LCH..but I dont think they come in quad launchers. Rather in twin launchers because HELINA weighs more than LAHAT which is primarily a CLGM...LAHAT was armed more like a stop gap solution.


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## kurup

Abingdonboy said:


> It is the HELINA ASM that the LCH is eventually meant to carry is it not? I've not heard much wrt the LAHAT being used on the LCH.



Is that Rudra on the picture ?? The nose gun seems to be missing.



sancho said:


> Seems like we develop our own:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livefist: DEFEXPO: India's Air-launched ATGM HELINA Close Up



Looks ugly ......


----------



## karan21

Man I love this combat machine. Can't wait to see in Indian army.


----------



## halfilhal

kurup said:


> Is that Rudra on the picture ?? The nose gun seems to be missing.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks ugly ......



So true.

If someone put this picture with the heading "drainage pipe", I think everyone will believe that.


----------



## Dandpatta

halfilhal said:


> So true.
> 
> If someone put this picture with the heading "drainage pipe", I think everyone will believe that.



A drainage pipe that throws some mean **** at the enemy !! You gotta love it doood


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## Skull and Bones

kurup said:


> Looks ugly ......



You can paint some flowers and leaves to make it look beautiful. Still that won't change much of it's capabilities.

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## Capt.Popeye

Skull and Bones said:


> You can paint some flowers and leaves to make it look beautiful. Still that won't change much of it's capabilities.



Now, was it intended to win the Miss Universe pageant?


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## Skull and Bones

Capt.Popeye said:


> Now, was it intended to win the Miss Universe pageant?



But the size looks a bit on the bigger side, if compared with other air launched ATGMs.


----------



## Bobby

kurup said:


> Is that Rudra on the picture ?? The nose gun seems to be missing.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks ugly ......



More ugly for enemies....

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## Capt.Popeye

Skull and Bones said:


> But the size looks a bit on the bigger side, if compared with other air launched ATGMs.



That is a possibility. That is why it got knocked out of the 'Man-Portable' run-off.


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## KRAIT

kurup said:


> Is that Rudra on the picture ?? The nose gun seems to be missing.
> Looks ugly ......


Isn't it ironic that your poster name is "kurup" and you are angry because it looks UGLY.

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## Abingdonboy

kurup said:


> Is that Rudra on the picture ?? The nose gun seems to be missing.



A VERY early mock-up of the ALH-WSI. Note the EO pod/FLIR is mounted underneath the helo's nose instead of above as on the final design.

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## sancho

KS said:


> The quad launchers are not for HELINA IMO but for Lahat..like this



No, it's defenitely Helina class ATGMs, since LAHAT quad launchers could be used on all 4 hardpoints, Helina quad launchers on the other side are planned only for the inner once.
Also Rudra can't carry Helina quad launchers at all, only twin launchers, which is why I prefer LAHAT or Samho missiles with quad launchers for it, for more commonality with IAs strike corps.

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## kurup

KRAIT said:


> Isn't it ironic that your poster name is "kurup" and you are angry because it looks UGLY.



I didn't get it . What has it got to do with my user name ?? Does kurup means something in any other language ??



Abingdonboy said:


> A VERY early mock-up of the ALH-WSI. Note the EO pod/FLIR is mounted underneath the helo's nose instead of above as on the final design.



Can you see any difference in the stub wing of this version from the final design ??


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## KRAIT

kurup said:


> I didn't get it . What has it got to do with my user name ?? Does kurup means something in any other language ??
> an you see any difference in the stub wing of this version from the final design ??


Kuroop -- "Ku"-Bad , "Roop" - Appearance.

KURUP means Bad Appearance or Ugly.

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## Abingdonboy

kurup said:


> Can you see any difference in the stub wing of this version from the final design ??


Yes, the arms on the mock-up look significantly shorter than on the final product.

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## Frank Martin

KRAIT said:


> Kuroop -- "Ku"-Bad , "Roop" - Appearance.
> 
> KURUP means Bad Appearance or Ugly.



ha ha but bro it's K-U-R-U-P not Kuroop. It's a hereditary title among Nair caste in Kerala. Their ancestors were warriors and very valiant people. 

Kurup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## KRAIT

Frank Martin said:


> ha ha but bro it's K-U-R-U-P not Kuroop. It's a hereditary title among Nair caste in Kerala. Their ancestors were warriors and very valiant people.
> Kurup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Hehe, I was just telling you what it main sound like and mean in Hindi.

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## KS

sancho said:


> No, it's defenitely Helina class ATGMs, since LAHAT quad launchers could be used on all 4 hardpoints, Helina quad launchers on the other side are planned only for the inner once.



I still think we cant decide which missile the quad launcher is for only based on the hard point location its shown in the figure.

I still believe HELINA is actually quite big to be packed in quad launchers. But then again, if its actually a quad launcher for HELINA then its a good news and I would be megusta.


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## kurup

KRAIT said:


> Kuroop -- "Ku"-Bad , "Roop" - Appearance.
> 
> KURUP means Bad Appearance or Ugly.



That is one funny way to look at it ......

But as @Frank Martin explained it is a hereditary title among Nair caste in Kerala.


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## GORKHALI

Check out the helicopter in background...Lol

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## Guynextdoor2

GORKHALI said:


> Check out the helicopter in background...Lol


 
Where....?????????


----------



## neehar



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## Water Car Engineer

At Farnborough Airshow

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## Echo_419

Water Car Engineer said:


> At Farnborough Airshow



were there any mockups


----------



## C130

I'm quite interested in the LCH.
i'm curious about the 20mm cannon the M621 how does it fare against the three barrel M197, is it more accurate???

I wonder if anyone has thought about using the LAHAT in a 3x2 config, for a loadout of 12 LAHAT, two rocket pods.


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## GORKHALI

LCH TD 3?

@Oscar @Chak Bamu Can you make this thread a stick thread ? And also colate all the posts from other LCH thread into one .

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## Abingdonboy

GORKHALI said:


> View attachment 146149
> 
> 
> 
> LCH TD 3?
> 
> @Oscar @Chak Bamu Can you make this thread a stick thread ? And also colate all the posts from other LCH thread into one .


Depends on when this pic is dated but if it's from late 2013/early 2014 then yes it is the TD 3.


----------



## Hareeshu IA MBT

When will we get both rudra and LCH ... ? And what about developing heavy helicopters ?


----------



## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> View attachment 146149
> 
> 
> 
> LCH TD 3?



Must be, check the changes at the windows:






Livefist: Up Close With India's Light Combat Helicopter (Prototype 2)

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Must be, check the changes at the windows:
> 
> View attachment 146251
> 
> 
> Livefist: Up Close With India's Light Combat Helicopter (Prototype 2)


Nice catch! The new design of the windows on the TD 3 (and thus on the production standard LCHs) is much better as the pilots are not as exposed, I always thought this was one of the biggest issues with the past design (TD 1 and 2).

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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> Must be, check the changes at the windows:
> 
> View attachment 146251
> 
> 
> Livefist: Up Close With India's Light Combat Helicopter (Prototype 2)


Yea they covered the Windows with armour plates and also I see the wings are more angled upwards.


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## Water Car Engineer

Changes we can see.

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## HariPrasad

Water Car Engineer said:


> Changes we can see.
> 
> View attachment 146458
> 
> View attachment 146459




Hey @Water Car Engineer ,

Any detail about TD3? Why it took so long time to come? What are the changes made? Weight reduction?


----------



## Water Car Engineer

HariPrasad said:


> Hey @Water Car Engineer ,
> 
> Any detail about TD3? Why it took so long time to come? What are the changes made? Weight reduction?




You know as much as I do. It was supposed to cut weight and be redesigned slightly. It's supposed to be the closest to the production version.

The thing we cant see from that picture is the landing gear's cover design. The weapons boom looks the same.

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## HariPrasad

Water Car Engineer said:


> You know as much as I do. It was supposed to cut weight and be redesigned slightly. It's supposed to be the closest to the production version.
> 
> The thing we cant see from that picture is the landing gear's cover design. The weapons boom looks the same.




I had read somewhere that it had some problem with antilogarithm and aerodynamic which prevented it from delivering the desired performance which took so long time for TD3 to come in. Let us hope that issues are resolved and it is mass produced and enters service as soon as possible

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## Dash

Fortunately, or unfortunately I met an HAL official who works on the final assembly line for ALH and Rudra. He said Shakti engine is not being used anymore as it failed. So its only Turbomecha getting fitted to all choppers as is.

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## sathya

Dash said:


> Fortunately, or unfortunately I met an HAL official who works on the final assembly line for ALH and Rudra. He said Shakti engine is not being used anymore as it failed. So its only Turbomecha getting fitted to all choppers as is.






Why this issue has not been raised ?


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## Tshering22

Its been 4 years and still there is no sign of induction. 

LCH is becoming another Tejas. WTF is HAL doing?


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## Dash

sathya said:


> Why this issue has not been raised ?



Dont know buddy, but Shakti was supposed to make it lighter, while they are still working on it, but no signs of it going into prod version of LCH. They might be working on reducing its weight by other means.


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## sathya

We were getting hopes up as dhruv mk3 & 4 are getting shakti engine... Which were thought to responsible for reduction in high altitude accidents".. 

Now


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## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


> What we haven't seen yet in the EW suite integrated(like with Rudra) onto LCH.
> 
> Im pretty sure the EW suite is in the base model.



Since they still changing the design to improve things, the integration of EW systems might not have priority at the moment.


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## Stealth

India has good graphic designer/artists, Indian Military should hire them and they will decide better camo and design for the military hardware. Military experts collaborate with them, give them a knowledge about the military hardware and they will design + suggest camo. Right now its lookg soo ugly bcuz of this shity camo.

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## Brahma Bull

Stealth said:


> India has good graphic designer/artists, Indian Military should hire them and they will decide better camo and design for the military hardware. Military experts collaborate with them, give them a knowledge about the military hardware and they will design + suggest camo. Right now its lookg soo ugly bcuz of this shity camo.


Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.in my eyes,it is a really gorgeous looking camo.


----------



## 帅的一匹

the camo of LCH is damn ugly, I'm sorry I tell the truth.


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## Ammyy

wanglaokan said:


> the camo of LCH is damn ugly, I'm sorry I tell the truth.



We built It to give nightmare to our enemies


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## 帅的一匹

Ammyy said:


> We built It to give nightmare to our enemies


T always think the paint job of Some PLA weapons really suck, this is even worse. The camo so cheap make it looks funny.

The cabin layout is disproportionate, the pilot get exposed too much. It's a flaw design.


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## GORKHALI

wanglaokan said:


> T always think the paint job of Some PLA weapons really suck, this is even worse. The camo so cheap make it looks funny.
> 
> The cabin layout is disproportionate, the pilot get exposed too much. It's a flaw design.


Oh Yea!!!!!Its a TD not even a Final design. And you arrived in conclusion that it is a flawed design ,you must be heck of aero engineer.Salute
Here TD 3 with armoured plates and design changes. TD 4 will also come online by next year.


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## Abingdonboy

wanglaokan said:


> the camo of LCH is damn ugly, I'm sorry I tell the truth.


Looks don't matter, if it is operationally effective is the real question.



Tshering22 said:


> Its been 4 years and still there is no sign of induction.
> 
> LCH is becoming another Tejas. WTF is HAL doing?


4 years is nothing when talking about the development of complex systems such as this. The fact that the project was started in 2010 and the first units could be inducted into service by 2016/17 is pretty remarkable in itself.


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## Sahasranama

wanglaokan said:


> T always think the paint job of Some PLA weapons really suck, this is even worse. The camo so cheap make it looks funny.
> 
> The cabin layout is disproportionate, the pilot get exposed too much. It's a flaw design.



Its a low visibility digital cameo.


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## hkdas

Abingdonboy said:


> 4 years is nothing when talking about the development of complex systems such as this. The fact that the project was started in 2010 and the first units could be inducted into service by 2016/17 is pretty remarkable in itself.


bro, first flight flew in 2010 and the project started in 2006.... 4 years is too much time for just a minor development...

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## Abingdonboy

hkdas said:


> bro, first flight flew in 2010 and the project started in 2006.... 4 years is too much time for just a minor development...


Fair enough. 4 years (2006-2010) to produce the first prototype and about 10 years (2006-2016) to go from sanction to in operational service is no small achievement. The fact is you are not simply designing a flying machine (that is hard enough) but a weapons delivery machine which brings about a whole new level of complexity (testing, validation, certification etc etc) this is an area where India has very little experience so one can only praise the efforts of HAL in this regard. The Eurocopter Tiger and Z-10 have very similar timelines.


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## sancho

hkdas said:


> bro, first flight flew in 2010 and the project started in 2006.... 4 years is too much time for just a minor development...



Rudra is a minor development, since it's a modification of the available version. LCH might have common systems, but is a complete re-design and the first one we do, which explains why they have to re-work the design so often, also that it's far more than a minor development.

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## hkdas

sancho said:


> Rudra is a minor development, since it's a modification of the available version. LCH might have common systems, but is a complete re-design and the first one we do, which explains why they have to re-work the design so often, also that it's far more than a minor development.



by minor modification i mean the modification from the TD1(1st flight) to TD3(20XX) of LCH.


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## sancho

hkdas said:


> by minor modification i mean the modification from the TD1(1st flight) to TD3(20XX) of LCH.



Well, it might look minor for us forumers, but the work behind it surely wasn't a pice of cake. Keep in mind that they have changed the air intake position from TD1 to 2 and now exhaust as it seems, the modified the stubwing at least 3 times if my memory is right, they modified the externals to reduce drag (gun, gears, air intakes, stubwings) and now changed the design of the cockpit windows too. There surely were credible wind tunnel testing, which then resulted in design and production of new parts, apart of the flight testing that we see or read about in the media.

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## hkdas

sancho said:


> Well, it might look minor for us forumers, but the work behind it surely wasn't a pice of cake. Keep in mind that they have changed the air intake position from TD1 to 2 and now exhaust as it seems, the modified the stubwing at least 3 times if my memory is right, they modified the externals to reduce drag (gun, gears, air intakes, stubwings) and now changed the design of the cockpit windows too. There surely were credible wind tunnel testing, which then resulted in design and production of new parts, apart of the flight testing that we see or read about in the media.


yes i agree with you...


----------



## fsayed

_These are India's two recently developed attack-role helicopters . _

*RUDRA&LCH*








First thought always comes in mind is that what is difference between these two . 
Second, They both are attack helicopters but which one of them is better than other . 
The RUDRA attack helicopter is multirole weaponised DHRUV and the LCH is entirely attack-role helicopter that means LCH have only task and that is to attack and destroy the enemy . *The very reason behind it's development . *
But is the LCH is superior in attack-role ?

Lets take a look at them . 

*COMPARISON*
*1] General Characteristics :- It doesn't look there is much difference other than a major one i.e. Capacity . *

*RUDRA*






Crew: 1 or 2 pilots
*Capacity: 12 passengers (14 passengers with high density seating) or 4 stretchers.*
Length: 15.87 m (52 ft 0.8 in)
Rotor diameter: 13.20 m (43 ft 3.7 in)
Height: 4.98 m (16 ft 4.06 in)
Disc area: 137 m² (1,472 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,502 kg (5,515 lb)
Useful load: 2,600 kg (5,731 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 5,500 kg (12,125 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshafts, 1,000 kW (1,400 shp)
Alternate engine: 2 x Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 turboshaft, 746 kW (1,000 shp) each 

*LCH*






Crew: 2
Length: 15.8 m (51 ft 8 in)
Rotor diameter: 13.3 m (43 ft 6 in)
Height: 4.7 m (15 ft 4 in)
Disc area: 138.9 m² (1,472 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,250 kg[citation needed] (5,975 lb)
Useful load: 3,350 kg[citation needed] (7,410 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 5,800 kg (12,787 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshaft, 1,067 kW (1,430 shp) each

*The engine provides power is same in both i.e. HAL/Turbomeca Shakti *






*2] Performance :- Looks like RUDRA have upper hand but mostly same . *






*3] Armament :- The one very area where importance of LCH should seen more than RUDRA . But still it's the same . *






*RUDRA*
*Guns:
1 x 20mm M621 cannon into the Nexter THL-20 chin mounted gun turret (Air-Force & Army version)
Missiles:
8 Helina (Helicopter-launched Nag) Anti-tank guided missiles (planned for Air-Force & Army version)
4 MBDA Mistral short-range Air-to-air missiles (Air-Force & Army version)
4 x 68 mm or 70 mm Rocket Pods (Air-Force & Army version)
2 Torpedoes or Depth charges(Navy version)
2 Anti-ship missiles (Navy version)*

*LCH*
*Guns: 1× 20 mmM621 cannon on Nexter THL-20 turret
Rockets: 60/80 mm calibre rockets[21]
Missiles: air-to-surface, MBDA air-to-air, anti-radiation, and Helina anti-tank missiles
Bombs: Gravity bombs, cluster bombs, grenade launchers*

*The surveillance , imaging , tracking and targeting devices are same . *






*In fact, RUDRA looks better equipped . *

*4] Avionics :- *
*RUDRA*
*Elbit CoMPASS optoelectronic suite for reconnaissance and target acquisition
SAAB IDAS-3 self-protection suite*






*The helicopter is fitted with an integrated defensive aids system (IDAS-3) from SAAB, which delivered the system’s components while the aircraft integration was provided by HAL. IDAS-3 utilizes UV missile approach warning sensors, LWS-310 laser warning sensors and RWS-300 radar warning receivers and flare dispensers. Two units are clearly visible on the upper cockpit sides . *

*70% hardware of these both helicopters are same that may be easier for maintenance but does not gives LCH much of importance . *

*In the end, there is only one thing to say and that is LCH's final prototype[TD3] yet to be seen and for now only TD1 and TD2 are produced but it is said that there isn't much difference between the latest TD2 and the final prototypes TD3 and TD4 . Hopefully TD4 will emerge as a true attack helicopter . *

Guys, hope u like the comparison . 
Images from different sources . 
More info - 
HAL Rudra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
HAL Light Combat Helicopter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Superboy

LCH is scout and light attack like WZ-19 not heavy attack like WZ-10.


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## Arya Desa

Such a sexy picture:

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## Brahma Bull

LCH TD3 is ready for its flight at 2.30 PM !!
via-Tarmak007

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## Arya Desa

Superboy said:


> LCH is scout and light attack like WZ-19 not heavy attack like WZ-10.



That's why it is called Light Combat Helicopter?

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## jaiind

Hal is ready for test flight of LCH TD 3 at 2:30 pm today.

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## Superboy

Arya Desa said:


> That's why it is called Light Combat Helicopter?




I suppose so.


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## nomi007

* RUDRA is better*


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## abhi21

beautiful...


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## SpArK



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## SrNair

Success LCH and HAL Rudra would create a successful full fledged world class heli industry in our nation.

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## fsayed



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## fsayed



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## SrNair

Superboy said:


> LCH is scout and light attack like WZ-19 not heavy attack like WZ-10.



Wrong.LCH is better than Z-19.But dont know about z-20.
What about its specs?


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## fsayed



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## Water Car Engineer

Will be ready for aero india.


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## kaykay

@fsayed Bro you should also check LCH TD3 pic. You will see a lot of difference in previous LCH prototypes and TD3.
Check this out.

HAL’s LCH-TD-3 Emerges with smaller Cockpit Area | idrw.org


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## fsayed

*TD 3 latest image on forum



*

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## fsayed

*Hal is ready for test flight of LCH TD 3 at 2:30 pm today.*

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## ssethii

SpArK said:


> View attachment 150115


How the hell it manages to balance itself on just two tires.


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## sathya

why is that tail wheel thing got stubby ? 
weight also would increase ?


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## Lostsoldier

sreekumar said:


> Wrong.LCH is better than Z-19.But dont know about z-20.
> What about its specs?


Don't compare an inducted heli with a prototype.


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## SpArK



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## kaykay

sathya said:


> why is that tail wheel thing got stubby ?
> weight also would increase ?


Yes weight will also be decreased as per idrw.


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## Water Car Engineer

SpArK said:


> View attachment 150133
> View attachment 150134
> View attachment 150135



These are TD 1 and 2...


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## kaykay

ssethii said:


> How the hell it manages to balance itself on just two tires.


LOLs there is a third wheel near tails. check out again


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## ni8mare

ssethii said:


> How the hell it manages to balance itself on just two tires.


lololzzzzzzzzz

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## karan21

ssethii said:


> How the hell it manages to balance itself on just two tires.


It's Indian engineering. Just kidding, look carefully it's got 3 tires.


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## karan21

Beautiful machine. A truly good looking combat helicopter. Proud of Indian aviation.

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## ssethii

I still don't see it, but there should be a third one or it's a new marvel in engineering.


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## SRP

ssethii said:


> I still don't see it, but there should be a third one or it's a new marvel in engineering.



You need a binocular


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## fsayed




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## fsayed




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## fsayed




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## Parul

fsayed said:


>



 Err - Welcome Back.  Where were you? You don't post in Political Thread These days? Kya hua?

@arp2041 Look your friend is back.


----------



## Koovie

You are forgetting about one of the most important factors:
LCH should have substantially better armor protection. 

Rudra is less armored than the LCA.


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## jaiind

ssethii said:


> How the hell it manages to balance itself on just two tires.


its an alien tech

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## Derolo

ssethii said:


> I still don't see it, but there should be a third one or it's a new marvel in engineering.



Its right below the tail 
you would notice in the background a green vehicle attached to it

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## Backbencher

jaiind said:


> Hal is ready for test flight of LCH TD 3 at 2:30 pm today.


Are they going to telecast it in any channel ? I know its a silly question but I'm just curious


----------



## Derolo

Main advantage of LCH is that it has a very small RCS due to frontal shape.

Rudra is a weaponised attack chopper but it has a big RCS similar to any utility chopper.

LCH however is a work in progress and will take years to achieve operational clearance and will constantly be dwarfed by the Apaches.


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## fsayed




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## fsayed



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## fsayed




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## fsayed




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## fsayed




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## fsayed




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## Roybot

@fsayed , the LCH you see today isn't the final product, and the figures that you used are guesstimates at best. We should wait till the final prototype of LCH rolls out before making any comparisons.


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## Guynextdoor2

oh FISH!!! I think I saw the TD3 fly already. Didn't realize it coz I thought that it was another ALH (they fly them all the time after making them). The yellow exterior heli was most probably TD 3. (and yeah if they say that they are test flying a heli at 2.30 today, then it generally means it's been flying for a week- they always declare dates that are well after the true test flight dates).


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## acetophenol

@fsayed : Rudra won't be able to carry passengers like the Dhruv. So far I've seen Rudra carry one extra person other than the 2 pilots,not any more. You will have to subtract the weight of the armaments,ammo,fuel and other systems from the load carrying capacity of Dhruv to get what Rudra can carry.

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## SrNair

Kunwar Anurag Rathore said:


> Don't compare an inducted heli with a prototype.



LCH in its protoype stage remarkably better than Z 19 on the basis of Specs.Let see its performance after its induction.


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## Water Car Engineer

Looks the cockpit area has add on armor.






Could be the composite heli armor they developed.

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## ptltejas

jaiind said:


> Hal is ready for test flight of LCH TD 3 at 2:30 pm today.


source?


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## jaiind

ptltejas said:


> source?


@Tarmak007


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## SpArK

Water Car Engineer said:


> These are TD 1 and 2...



Did i say its TDP?

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## ptltejas

Tarmak007 | Facebook

its said 45 second ago its started Finger*s* Crossed...........


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## Water Car Engineer

SpArK said:


> Did i say its TDP?



What? It's a thread about TD-3, why would you post all the other prototypes?

Especially when this one has design changes over the other two..


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## fsayed

LCH TD-3 Cleared for First Flight today | idrw.org


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## Indo-guy

ssethii said:


> How the hell it manages to balance itself on just two tires.



perhaps you didn't see the ' third ' leg ....


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## RPK




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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/532473298198618112

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## jugad

Beauty it is  
Atleast we have a good heli industry


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## ashish1

trident2010 said:


> When the LCH is slated for induction?


Not before 2016.


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## Water Car Engineer

Also note the Dhruv in the pic is a mark 3, with pod and EW sensors.


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## RPK



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## RPK

#LCH TD3 Team HAL after LCH's successful first flight. The flight lasted for 20 minutes.


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## RPK



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## fsayed

LCH TD-3 Completes first flight | idrw.org


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## RPK

HAL CTP Rotary Wing Wg Cdr Unni Pillai ( Retd) soon after touching down at Helicopter Complex. The LCH TD3 maiden flight was a very smooth affair and a great sight to watch with Dhruv as the chase. Standby for a detailed report on OneIndia soon. Congrats HAL.


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## fsayed

LCH TD-3 Completes first flight | idrw.org


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## ptltejas

RPK said:


> View attachment 150199


kyonki colour abhi baki he mere dost.


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## GORKHALI



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## proud_indian

View attachment 150345



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/532533707840565248

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## proud_indian



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## proud_indian



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## sancho

fsayed said:


> First thought always comes in mind is that what is difference between these two .
> Second, They both are attack helicopters but which one of them is better than other



The main difference between both is, that Rudra is "just" and armed Dhruv with similar weapons and systems, but it was designed for normal helicopter roles and not for combat. That' exactly where the tandem design of the LCH comes in and will provide the biggest difference in the benefits of operational use. Other than that, the flight and load performance will add advantages to LCH, which is can be seen at the higher payload for example, that allows more or also heavier weapons than Rudra can carry.

ATGM carrying capability (standard / max configs):

Rudra - 4 / 8
LCH - 8 / 12
Apache - 8 / 16

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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> View attachment 150361









Older one for comparison:

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## SQ8

While the concept(commonality with the Dhruv) is nice, it seems a little ungainly with the tail wheel being based on an extraneous support. An inspiration for a solution exists with the upcoming AH-64 for the IAF by moving the tail wheel all the way to the empennage.. however that will put greater stress on the tail which will need strengthening. 
A different solution would be a tricycle landing gear like the Hind and adding a light tail skid at the end to protect strikes. 
I do see a lot of fuel capacity. 

I wonder what the gentleman means by Indian components finally? Was it not this way before?


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## proud_indian

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=666869423410386

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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> View attachment 150396
> 
> 
> 
> Older one for comparison:
> View attachment 150395


Its me or even you ,the fuselage length is increased with lot of IR suppressor work has been done nearby engine.


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## Manindra

Oscar said:


> While the concept(commonality with the Dhruv) is nice, it seems a little ungainly with the tail wheel being based on an extraneous support. An inspiration for a solution exists with the upcoming AH-64 for the IAF by moving the tail wheel all the way to the empennage.. however that will put greater stress on the tail which will need strengthening.
> A different solution would be a tricycle landing gear like the Hind and adding a light tail skid at the end to protect strikes.
> I do see a lot of fuel capacity.
> 
> I wonder what the gentleman means by Indian components finally? Was it not this way before?


Engine, EW suite, Gun, FLIR etc.


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## SQ8

Manindra said:


> Engine, EW suite, Gun, FLIR etc.



Is the Engine a completely Indian design?


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## Manindra

Oscar said:


> Is the Engine a completely Indian design?



JV between HAL & Turbomeca


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## GORKHALI

*HAL-funded LCH TD-3 undergoes first flight successfully*

Bengaluru, November 12: India on Wednesday pinned an inspiring page to its chopper chapter when Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) successfully conducted the maiden test flight of the third technology demonstrator (TD-3) of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). Piloted by Wg Cdr Unni Pillai (Retd), HAL's Chief Test Pilot (CTP), Rotary Wing (RW) and ably assisted by Gp Capt Hari Nair (Retd), Deputy CTP (RW), the 20-minute maiden outing of LCH TD-3 was a flawless affair. The successful flight is a huge morale-booster to HAL, as the TD-3 project is being funded (Rs 80 crore) completely by the company, as part of the ‘bold strategy by the Board' to fast-track the programme. *HAL has also set aside Rs 126 crore for LCH TD-4, which is expected to fly soon.*


The LCH TD3's flight had its own share of suspense with the Bengaluru weather presenting a gloomy picture all through Tuesday. However, not-withstanding a light drizzle, the pilots took off the LCH TD3 from HAL's Helicopter Division and headed towards the Hoskote segment with a Dhruv chopper as the chase. The confidence of the pilots were evident when they did a low fly-past over the Helicopter Complex before touching down completing all flight parameters as prescribed during the pre-flight briefing session. "Every test point was done exactly with nothing unusual noticed during the flight.* We are confident that the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) will now be achieved in September 2015, three months ahead of the *deadline," HAL Chairman R K Tyagi told OneIndia.

Tyagi's bold steps vindicated

The successful flight vindicated Tyagi's bold stand in convincing the HAL Board to fund additional two technology demonstrators for LCH. "I knew that the only way to ensure an early IOC was increasing the number of flying hours. We did not want for wait for the customer funding and approvals. This is the paradigm shift in the thought process of HAL now. The results are there for everyone to see today," Tyagi said. He was seen giving a pep-talk to Team LCH on Tuesday morning and interacted with the designers, engineers, Test Pilots, certifying agencies and shop-floor employees. The Indian Army has given a Letter of Intent for 114 LCHs and the IAF for 65 choppers.

Tyagi said that LCH will be an effective weapon platform capable of delivering precision strikes at high altitude. "This is a mean machine and we have made many changes to TD-3, compared to TD-1 and TD-2. *The users gave us many feedbacks and our designers were quick to respond to the challenges. We have ensured that LCH TD-3 and TD-4 will have more ‘Made in India' systems and components including Integrated Avionics and Display System and Automatic Flight Control System. Not a single snag was reported during today's flight,*" Tyagi said.

Bold steps, better results

Speaking to OneIndia soon after the flight, Ashok Tandon, Executive Director (Company Secretary), HAL, said that the bold decisions taken by the Board, are now showing better results. "We decided to fund two technology demonstrators purely to expedite the project. The entire Board stood by the Chairman's out-of-the-box-way idea on LCH. In March this year, *we sanctioned Rs 126 core for LCH TD-4 and the structural build of the platform is already ready. We are hoping to have the first flight of TD-4 in early next year," Tandon said.*

He said HAL is now geared up to take on the challenges in aerospace and defence sector. "Expertise can't be built over night and we have stood the test of the time and are ready to move on with new ideas. The LCH, once inducted, is sure to replicate the success of Dhruv, which has become the mainstay of the Indian Army now," Tandon added.

Improvised TD-3 set to spit fire

For CTP Wg Cdr Unni (Retd), it was just another feather in his cap with the successful first flight of LCH TD-3. *Explaining the new features of LCH TD-3, Unni said that the chopper has a lifting wing now making it on par with the Mi-25 and Mi-35. In addition, the HAL designers have shortened the length of the chopper to improve the vibration characteristics.

The wings are now sitting slightly on a higher attachment point, compared to TD-1 and TD-2. "The cockpit was glassier earlier and now we have fixed armour plating on the sides, reducing the glass factor. Even the height of the cockpit has been reduced. The LCH TD-3 will be soon be integrated with weapons and it will have a busy schedule ahead carrying out trials. We have improved on many features, including the gear boxes of LCH TD-3*," Unni added.

Who dares wins, says HAL CTP

Unni said during the first flight, they we were keen to see how the changes that were incorporated responded.

" The ATC (Air Traffic Controllers) kept on telling us during the flight that heavy rain was coming in our direction. We never panicked and to our luck we missed the rain by a whisker. We checked all the parameters successfully," he said.

Regarded as one of the ‘most daring' helicopter Test Pilots in India, Unni said that LCH, once operational, can be a destructive platform at high altitudes. "This will be the chopper to watch out for in Siachen Glacier and some of the other border areas above 18,000 feet. The TD-1 and TD-2 together have completed around 390 flights so far, logging 280 hours. The rate of flying was less because we were ensuring that all changes on LCH were of the final configuration. The basic testing of the LCH has been completed. Only systems need to be tested on different modes now," Unni added.

When asked about the mind of a Test Pilot moments before taking a new machine on its maiden flight, Unni said: "You have to be thoughtless when you take a mean machine for its first flight. Who dares wins!"

RotorPlus: HAL-funded LCH TD-3 undergoes first flight successfully - News Oneindia

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> Is the Engine a completely Indian design?



No. It is a version of the Turbomeca Ardiden modified and uprated to meet Indian "hot and high" requirements. This version is called Shakti.


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## SQ8

GORKHALI said:


> *Explaining the new features of LCH TD-3, Unni said that the chopper has a lifting wing now making it on par with the Mi-25 and Mi-35.
> 
> In addition, the HAL designers have shortened the length of the chopper to improve the vibration characteristics.*
> 
> *The wings are now sitting slightly on a higher attachment point, compared to TD-1 and TD-2. "The cockpit was glassier earlier and now we have fixed armour plating on the sides, reducing the glass factor. Even the height of the cockpit has been reduced. The LCH TD-3 will be soon be integrated with weapons and it will have a busy schedule ahead carrying out trials. We have improved on many features, including the gear boxes of LCH TD-3*," Unni



A problem with lifting/stub wings is that they reduce hover performance. The Commanche had found a rather unique workaround to this problem...internal bays and a very carefully designed stub wing system that would disperse the rotor wash to minimize the loss of lift.


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## Ammyy

LCH TD3 makes a maiden flight


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## ashish1

Oscar said:


> Is the Engine a completely Indian design?


JV between HAL and Turbomeca.(only on paper)


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## Krate M

@Oscar can you please move the relevant posts from LCA thread to this one


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## C130

I want to see some guncam footage


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## SQ8

Krate M said:


> @Oscar can you please move the relevant posts from LCA thread to this one



There is a lot of disorganization within the Indian section and some idiotic Indian members keep putting in economy, social issues in this area even when warned not to do so. I have been making efforts to organize the section but to no avail...hence now end up merging threads too quickly. 
Have sent all that I can from the LCA thread.. the rest I will just delete there.

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## halfilhal

Cockpit still too glassy. Should shorten the size of glasses. That tail wheel sticks out like a sixth finger in the hand.


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## surya kiran

Oscar said:


> There is a lot of disorganization within the Indian section and some idiotic Indian members keep putting in economy, social issues in this area even when warned not to do so. I have been making efforts to organize the section but to no avail...hence now end up merging threads too quickly.
> Have sent all that I can from the LCA thread.. the rest I will just delete there.



Mujhko mod bana do for Indian section. I already have lots of time on hand and my usage will show it


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## SR-91

BENGALURU: The third version of the technology demonstrator version of the light combat helicopter (LCH) successfully completed its maiden flight on Wednesday. It thus took another step towards getting an initial operational clearance (IOC), which HAL hopes to achieve by September 2015.

Stating that the entire flight, which lasted for 20 minutes, was successful, HAL chairman R K Tyagi said: "It will be an effective weapon platform to deliver precision strikes at high altitude and we are confident it will meet the requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF)."

HAL is expected to produce 179 LCH for the defence forces. It is now gearing up to enhance the number of flights to achieve cold and hot weather trials, and weapons firing trials before the IOC.

Wednesday's flight was piloted by Wing Commander Unni Pillai and co-piloted by Group Captain S H K Nair. The aircraft took off at 3.20pm.


LCH TD3 makes maiden flight - The Times of India

LCH 3 variant makes first flight - The Hindu

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## Abingdonboy

acetophenol said:


> @fsayed : Rudra won't be able to carry passengers like the Dhruv. So far I've seen Rudra carry one extra person other than the 2 pilots,not any more. You will have to subtract the weight of the armaments,ammo,fuel and other systems from the load carrying capacity of Dhruv to get what Rudra can carry.


The Rudra will be able to carry 5-6 fully armed troops whilst the ALH MK.3 can transports up to 14. The Rudra is a decent helo for SF insertion and subsequent fire support but given its large size and basic design it isn't a superior combat helicopter, yes it is more useful in certain ways, but the LCH has its own advantages.

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## he-man

Lch looks sexy


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## C130

one is a dedicated attack helicopter other is multi-role.

would be awesome to see Rudra with a minigun

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## Abingdonboy

@Oscar please merge this thread with the LCH sticky.


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## Genesis

sreekumar said:


> LCH in its protoype stage remarkably better than Z 19 on the basis of Specs.Let see its performance after its induction.



The question isn't LCH better than Z-19, is it better in it's role? 

Z-19 is a light attack helicopter, I'm assuming LCH, based on the name is also a light attack helicopter. However, how does India plan to use this? As something that leads the line? (Please don't mention Apache, you only got 20 something, it's not enough for such a large army) As something of a complement? As a back up? As a scout? 

What? 

Z-19 is cheap, effective and proven, it's also easy to build, 70 a year and counting. 

Now where would you place he LCH in terms of it's place in the IA.


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## C130

Genesis said:


> The question isn't LCH better than Z-19, is it better in it's role?
> 
> Z-19 is a light attack helicopter, I'm assuming LCH, based on the name is also a light attack helicopter. However, how does India plan to use this? As something that leads the line? (Please don't mention Apache, you only got 20 something, it's not enough for such a large army) As something of a complement? As a back up? As a scout?
> 
> What?
> 
> *Z-19 is cheap, effective and proven, it's also easy to build, 70 a year and counting. *
> 
> Now where would you place he LCH in terms of it's place in the IA.



-cheap sure
-effective unknown
-proven unkown

same goes for LCH. both need to put through paces before you can say they're effective and proven

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## Abingdonboy

(note the Mk.3 ALH for the IA with the full self-defence suite and EO pod)

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## Genesis

C130 said:


> -cheap sure
> -effective unknown
> -proven unkown
> 
> same goes for LCH. both need to put through paces before you can say they're effective and proven


Z-19 has been in exercises, internationally, but mostly, it's based on the Z-9, the Z-9 has also been hunting pirates for the past few years, which is also based on the Eurocopter. 

It's about as proven as a peaceful country can get. 

Z-19 has been in service for 5, 6 years now? Sure there has not been any wars, but it's not like it's just China using it in house, it has partaken in many exercises that involved foreign troops.


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## C130

Genesis said:


> Z-19 has been in exercises, internationally, but mostly, it's based on the Z-9, the Z-9 has also been hunting pirates for the past few years, which is also based on the Eurocopter.
> 
> It's about as proven as a peaceful country can get.
> 
> Z-19 has been in service for 5, 6 years now? Sure there has not been any wars, but it's not like it's just China using it in house, it has partaken in many exercises that involved foreign troops.



it needs a track record. 
not saying it can'y fly

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## SR-91

You r welcome to feel proud.

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## Superboy

halfilhal said:


> That tail wheel sticks out like a sixth finger in the hand.




Now that you mentioned it.  Compared with WZ-10.


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## SrNair

Genesis said:


> The question isn't LCH better than Z-19, is it better in it's role?
> 
> Z-19 is a light attack helicopter, I'm assuming LCH, based on the name is also a light attack helicopter. However, how does India plan to use this? As something that leads the line? (Please don't mention Apache, you only got 20 something, it's not enough for such a large army) As something of a complement? As a back up? As a scout?
> 
> What?
> 
> Z-19 is cheap, effective and proven, it's also easy to build, 70 a year and counting.
> 
> Now where would you place he LCH in terms of it's place in the IA.



Indian Army ordered 119 LCH.And according to HAL LCH already passed the requirement of Armed Forces and goes beyond their expectation .
But if we took the track record only plus point that we can see is that Z19 is inducted while LCH not.
But Z19 is still dont have any expereince with war.

Well still you cant understan why we opt for limited Apaches.
Those Apaches are only for Air support of the two newly created Mountain Division of IA.
Those Mountain Divisions are only for the offensive role not for defensive role.So for an offensive role you should have a best heavy class attack helicopter with maximum punch .Apache proved its mettle during Afghan operation.
That is why we selected Apache in limited numbers.
But IA ordered 119 LCH and that means it would be enough for all other purpose except heavy offensive role.


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## Genesis

sreekumar said:


> Indian Army ordered 119 LCH.And according to HAL LCH already passed the requirement of Armed Forces and goes beyond their expectation .
> But if we took the track record only plus point that we can see is that Z19 is inducted while LCH not.
> But Z19 is still dont have any expereince with war.
> 
> Well still you cant understan why we opt for limited Apaches.
> Those Apaches are only for Air support of the two newly created Mountain Division of IA.
> Those Mountain Divisions are only for the offensive role not for defensive role.So for an offensive role you should have a best heavy class attack helicopter with maximum punch .Apache proved its mettle during Afghan operation.
> That is why we selected Apache in limited numbers.
> But IA ordered 119 LCH and that means it would be enough for all other purpose except heavy offensive role.


why are we talking Apache? I know I mentioned them, but not to talk about them. 25 regardless of how you justify it is not enough. Else America wouldn't have 600+ of them. But let's drop this, as this isn't that important nor is it the topic.

The question is, would the LCH be taking on a bigger role than the Z-19 you think? If yes, would the comparison be valid. Would the Rudra have more or less load, in terms of missions, than the LCH, and if less, would this not be the candidate to be compared to the Z-19.


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## surya kiran

Genesis said:


> why are we talking Apache? I know I mentioned them, but not to talk about them. 25 regardless of how you justify it is not enough. Else America wouldn't have 600+ of them. But let's drop this, as this isn't that important nor is it the topic.
> 
> The question is, would the LCH be taking on a bigger role than the Z-19 you think? If yes, would the comparison be valid. Would the Rudra have more or less load, in terms of missions, than the LCH, and if less, would this not be the candidate to be compared to the Z-19.



Rudra is more likely to be used by mechanised infantry (it can carry troops), with armoured columns. LCH is a dedicated attack chopper with more armament carrying capability. It can carry twice the armament of the Rudra.

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## SrNair

Genesis said:


> why are we talking Apache? I know I mentioned them, but not to talk about them. 25 regardless of how you justify it is not enough. Else America wouldn't have 600+ of them. But let's drop this, as this isn't that important nor is it the topic.
> 
> The question is, would the LCH be taking on a bigger role than the Z-19 you think? If yes, would the comparison be valid. Would the Rudra have more or less load, in terms of missions, than the LCH, and if less, would this not be the candidate to be compared to the Z-19.



You mentioned and question the requirement of 20 Apache in our IA.
That is why I mentioned about Apache.
LCH has clear advantage over Rudra and equal or perhpas more than thr capabilities of Z19.
You will get clear picture after its induction
They orderd 119 means it would be the important part of our Army Aviation Corps in future.Upgradation may possible so orders may again increase.


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## kaykay

Genesis said:


> The question isn't LCH better than Z-19, is it better in it's role?
> 
> Z-19 is a light attack helicopter, I'm assuming LCH, based on the name is also a light attack helicopter. However, how does India plan to use this? As something that leads the line? (Please don't mention Apache, you only got 20 something, it's not enough for such a large army) As something of a complement? As a back up? As a scout?
> 
> What?
> 
> Z-19 is cheap, effective and proven, it's also easy to build, 70 a year and counting.
> 
> Now where would you place he LCH in terms of it's place in the IA.


I am not sure what are you implying. Anyway so far Army has ordered ~120 LCH along with 65 for IAF means total around 180. Now coming to Apache, 22 is for IAF and Army wants another 39, so total apache in service will eventually be 60+. And then there will be many Rudras and other armed helis like Lancers.


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## Water Car Engineer

Seems to have an extra opening, outside the main air intake.

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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> Its me or even you ,the fuselage length is increased with lot of IR suppressor work has been done nearby engine.



Looks more like they have added a covering around the exhaust, most likely for drag reductions, similar to what we have seen before with coverings at the guns and the gears.


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## sathya

Water Car Engineer said:


> View attachment 150733
> 
> 
> Seems to have an extra opening, outside the main air intake.



should be like aux intake in fighters.. opening up when required


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## sancho

Genesis said:


> The question is, would the LCH be taking on a bigger role than the Z-19 you think?



The difference between Z19 and LCH is similar to the difference between German Luftwaffe Eurocopter Tiger and the French Eurocopter Tiger:

http://www.bredow-web.de/ILA_2008/Hubschrauber/Eurocopter_Tiger_UHT/Eurocopter_Tiger_UHT_-_Flug.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Eurocopter_LE_TIGRE_-_Flickr_-_besopha.jpg


The one is an armed reconnaissance helicopter, the other a proper fire support helicopter. They both can carry rockets and missiles, but without a chin mounted gun, the German Tiger can support ground troops in the same manner, in all missions and the same is the case for the Z19.
India obviously have different requirements, with Rudra and LCH being developed with proper fire support capability in any mission.

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## kurup

@Oscar ...... Please merge this thread with the sticky one .


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## ashish1

Genesis said:


> The question isn't LCH better than Z-19, is it better in it's role?
> 
> Z-19 is a light attack helicopter, I'm assuming LCH, based on the name is also a light attack helicopter. However, how does India plan to use this? As something that leads the line? (Please don't mention Apache, you only got 20 something, it's not enough for such a large army) As something of a complement? As a back up? As a scout?
> 
> What?
> 
> Z-19 is cheap, effective and proven, it's also easy to build, 70 a year and counting.
> 
> Now where would you place he LCH in terms of it's place in the IA.


About 179 will be ordered.This is total for IA and IAF.


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## sancho

Stub wing changes during the development:

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## GORKHALI



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## nik141991

GORKHALI said:


> View attachment 150934
> View attachment 150935
> View attachment 150936


o my god look bad ***


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## sancho

They also gave the LCH a nose job:

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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> View attachment 150936



@Abingdonboy 

As you can see in the background, the addition of the EW suit is part of the MK IV standard and applied to all Dhruv versions. It's just like LCA's MK1 or MK2 standard will are the base for IAF's LCA and IN's N-LCA, even if they are different varients.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> @Abingdonboy
> 
> As you can see in the background, the addition of the EW suit is part of the MK IV standard and applied to all Dhruv versions. It's just like LCA's MK1 or MK2 standard will are the base for IAF's LCA and IN's N-LCA, even if they are different varients.


Indeed, very nice to see and essential in this day and age really! I'm guessing the FLIR is an optional extra with the SDS being standard. That would make sense- not every helo needs to have FLIR.


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## ni8mare

sancho said:


> They also gave the LCH a nose job:
> 
> View attachment 150979


 yeah notice it also.........


----------



## Abingdonboy

+ @sancho I wonder where they are going to put the self-defence sensors on the LCH? Above the cockpit? I'm assuming they'll be next to identical for the LCH as they are on the ALH.


----------



## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Looks more like they have added a covering around the exhaust, most likely for drag reductions, similar to what we have seen before with coverings at the guns and the gears.


In addition to drag reductionI think it is more than likely an attempt to suppress the IR signature of the engines.


----------



## Derolo

How many years to IOC-1 ?


----------



## ni8mare

Notable changes.....

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## ashish1

Derolo said:


> How many years to IOC-1 ?


1 year.2015 December,But HAL is saying that they could pull it off before it.


----------



## Abingdonboy

ashish1 said:


> 1 year.2015 December,But HAL is saying that they could pull it off before it.


They are saying they can get the IOC in September 2015 as they are funding (on their own) the TD-4 which will be flying soon and thus accelerating the flight test schedule.


----------



## Derolo

ashish1 said:


> 1 year.2015 December,But HAL is saying that they could pull it off before it.



So LCH IOC-1 can be expected to cleared by 2018 december as per HAL.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

GORKHALI said:


> View attachment 150934
> View attachment 150935
> View attachment 150936



Watch when they put the EW sensors on it. It's going to look badass!!

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## jha

Water Car Engineer said:


> Watch when they put the EW sensors on it. It's going to look badass!!



Add couple of missiles and Rocket Pods...


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> + @sancho I wonder where they are going to put the self-defence sensors on the LCH? Above the cockpit? I'm assuming they'll be next to identical for the LCH as they are on the ALH.



Check the picture of the mock up that I posted in the stub wing post, that might give some hints about the position.



Abingdonboy said:


> In addition to drag reductionI think it is more than likely an attempt to suppress the IR signature of the engines.



Yeah GORKHALI said that too, but if IR reduction was the aim, wouldn't they had changed the exhaust form or inlet, rather then just covering it from the outside? And it's not even fully covered, that's why I thought it's more an aerodynamic extension of the engine covering.



ni8mare said:


> Notable changes.....
> View attachment 150995



And the higher position of the stub wings

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Check the picture of the mock up that I posted in the stub wing post, that might give some hints about the position.


I just noticed that 

I certainly hope the placement of the sensors is how they are shown on the mockup, it would be such a shame to see those sensor blocks on the Rudra/ALH on the LCH, if they could be built into the airframe that would be great.


----------



## sancho

Wrt the exhaust, just checked some pics of the Apache:

Early version






Modified for IR reduction, upwards and fully covered


----------



## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Wrt the exhaust, just checked some pics of the Apache:
> 
> Early version
> View attachment 151126
> 
> 
> Modified for IR reduction, upwards and fully covered
> View attachment 151127


Sir, the more I look/think about it the more I'm sure it is about reducing the IR signature, in fact that new intake @Water Car Engineer points out seems to prove this further- a cool air intake to reduce the thermal signature of the exhaust.


+ that modified upwards facing exhaust was never adopted.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Evolution of the LCH
































*TD-1*





























* TD-2*


I really hope they keep the cowling on the main gun- that looked great!

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> in fact that new intake a cool air intake to reduce the thermal signature of the exhaust.





Not sure about that, the new inlet then would not pass the air into the engine, but through a channel behind the new covering to the exhaust to cool it, but then you would need a now hole to let that air out again and that wouldn't even cool the exhaust fully, only from one side. But as said, they didn't even covered the whole exhaust which leaves the top end visible and uncooled.



Abingdonboy said:


> + that modified upwards facing exhaust was never adopted.



For the Apaches? Of course, google for ah64D + iraq or afghanistan


----------



## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> For the Apaches? Of course, google for ah64D + iraq or afghanistan


I've never seen an operational Ah-64 with the upward facing exhausts sir.

The latest Apache standard (E):


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I've never seen an operational Ah-64 with the upward facing exhausts sir.



http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2010/02/16/64330/size0-army.mil-64330-2010-02-16-090241.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/AH-64_from_above.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/AH-64D_Apaches_prepare_for_takeoff.jpg


But anyway, the progress of LCH makes the Apaches even less needed, DRDO should focus on a mast mounted radar.


----------



## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2010/02/16/64330/size0-army.mil-64330-2010-02-16-090241.jpg
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/AH-64_from_above.jpg
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/AH-64D_Apaches_prepare_for_takeoff.jpg
> 
> 
> But anyway, the progress of LCH makes the Apaches even less needed, DRDO should focus on a mast mounted radar.


The last one appears to have the standard exhaust sir. And thanks for posting the others, honestly hadn't seen that exhaust in service on any Apache to date.


+ sir:





https://m.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-g.ak/..._=1424304607_b00e5a62d06cec4192c573dce61df9a8
@sancho, this pic was taken at HAL's ALH MRO facility, meaning that the IA/IAF are upgrading their Mk.1-3 fleet to the Mk.4 standard- very welcome news. 


I'm pleasantly surprised (understatement) that the Indian military have adopted such high end tech (Full glass cockpits, FLIR, modern self-defence suite) so readily and made it their standard equipment.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

My guess

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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2010/02/16/64330/size0-army.mil-64330-2010-02-16-090241.jpg
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/AH-64_from_above.jpg
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/AH-64D_Apaches_prepare_for_takeoff.jpg
> 
> 
> But anyway, the progress of LCH makes the Apaches even less needed, DRDO should focus on a mast mounted radar.


Bro actually I want Apaches on our side parallel to LCH, it will give a good opportunity to look upon by HAL to modify LCH further .Also Apaches are heavy class Gunship,an ideal replacement for Mi 25 and Mi 35.

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## narcon

Water Car Engineer said:


> View attachment 151204
> View attachment 151205

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## Sergi

Nice images 

Hoping to see SP rolling out in year or two.


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## Water Car Engineer

narcon said:


> View attachment 151228




Where do you propose to put them?

Rudra has one of the sensors on that very same location.

Other examples






Iraqi scout's sensor heads













Turkish T129's sensor heads on the wing tips.

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## narcon

Water Car Engineer said:


> Where do you propose to put them?
> .



I am not a Aeronautical engineer.
I am a water car engineer


----------



## Water Car Engineer

narcon said:


> I am not a Aeronautical engineer.
> I am a water car engineer



Water is our life!


----------



## narcon

Water Car Engineer said:


> Water is our life!



So is air that gets sucked into the combustion chamber of the motors/engines to give it a life of its own and eathlings like us!


----------



## Water Car Engineer

narcon said:


> So is air that gets sucked into the combustion chamber of the motors/engines to give it a life of its own and eathlings like us!



What madness do you speak, sir?


----------



## narcon

Water Car Engineer said:


> What madness do you speak, sir?



Are you denying above facts?
If so.
I should listen your gibberish first - is not it?

Or

If your pony Brain did not understand my one liner, I am not sure where you will be destined for


----------



## Water Car Engineer

narcon said:


> Are you denying above facts?
> If so.
> I should listen your gibberish first - is not it?
> 
> Or
> 
> If your pony Brain did not understand my one liner, I am not sure where you will be destined for



If I had my own blasphemy law, you'll outta here buddy! Keep that sorcery magic crap outta here!


----------



## narcon

Water Car Engineer said:


> If I had my own blasphemy law, you'll outta here buddy! Keep that sorcery magic crap outta here!



Welcome to my Ignore/Mute/Garbage list!


----------



## Water Car Engineer

narcon said:


> Welcome to my Ignore/Mute/Garbage list!



Voodoo lover.


----------



## fsayed

HAL plans LCH TD-4 flight by Early 2015, Lists Improvements made in TD-3 | idrw.org


----------



## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> Where do you propose to put them?
> 
> Rudra has one of the sensors on that very same location.
> 
> Other examples
> 
> View attachment 151232
> 
> 
> Iraqi scout's sensor heads
> 
> View attachment 151233
> View attachment 151234
> 
> View attachment 151237
> 
> 
> Turkish T129's sensor heads on the wing tips.













Tiger


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm pleasantly surprised (understatement) that the Indian military have adopted such high end tech (Full glass cockpits, FLIR, modern self-defence suite) so readily and made it their standard equipment.



I wouldn't just give the credit to the forces, but also HAL which constantly improved the Dhruv with every new technical standard:






That's the learning and improving curve that I want to see in indigenous developments, not the chest bumping and silly promisses about Indian content. Rudra and LCH are just the next step of the Dhruv success and the LUH development gives the prospect for another one. If only we had made LCA in a similar manner!

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## sancho

GORKHALI said:


> Bro actually I want Apaches on our side parallel to LCH, it will give a good opportunity to look upon by HAL to modify LCH further .Also Apaches are heavy class Gunship,an ideal replacement for Mi 25 and Mi 35.



As I often say, there is no heavy and light class for combat helicopters like there is with fighters, because all combat helicopters do the same roles in the same manner, with just a minimal difference in performance.
The Apache might have a bigger chin mounted gun, but it will be used in the same manner as LCH or even Rudra will do it. The Apache might have a higher payload, but it also has only 4 hardpoints as any combat helicopter, which makes the difference irrelevant:

LCH / Apache

Standard config: 8 x ATGMs + 2 x rocket pods vs 8 x ATGMs + 2 x rocket pods (14 x rockets more) 
Anti tank role: 12 x ATGMs vs 16 x ATGMs (4 x ATGMs more)

On the EW side LCH will be at least on par with latest combat helicopters and the capability of it's avionics must be compared to what avionics an Apache for Indian forces would include, not what was developed for US / NATO forces. The biggest difference then will be the mast mounted radar, which LCH at least at the beginning won't have and that makes an actual difference, but other than that I don't see much benefits over LCH that would make such an expensive order needed. Especially when you add the advantage that LCH was designed and developed specifically for the Indian terrain and that surely will give advantages.

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## Guynextdoor2

sancho said:


> I wouldn't just give the credit to the forces, but also HAL which constantly improved the Dhruv with every new technical standard:
> 
> View attachment 151423
> 
> 
> That's the learning and improving curve that I want to see in indigenous developments, not the chest bumping and silly promisses about Indian content. Rudra and LCH are just the next step of the Dhruv success and the LUH development gives the prospect for another one. If only we had made LCA in a similar manner!


 
We should have continued work on fighters after Ajit....the learning curve would have been a lot more manageable. I guess the lesson is that every time you decide to 'give up' on something, the price is very steep.


----------



## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


> Where do you propose to put them?



If we take the LCH mock up as the base, it should be similar to this:

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## Guynextdoor2

Genesis said:


> why are we talking Apache? I know I mentioned them, but not to talk about them. 25 regardless of how you justify it is not enough. Else America wouldn't have 600+ of them. But let's drop this, as this isn't that important nor is it the topic.
> 
> The question is, would the LCH be taking on a bigger role than the Z-19 you think? If yes, would the comparison be valid. Would the Rudra have more or less load, in terms of missions, than the LCH, and if less, would this not be the candidate to be compared to the Z-19.


 
LCH's role is mainly high altitude attack, to fill a void that we saw during Kargil WAR. Neither Apache nor Hind can support us there.


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## sancho

Guynextdoor2 said:


> We should have continued work on fighters after Ajit....the learning curve would have been a lot more manageable. I guess the lesson is that every time you decide to 'give up' on something, the price is very steep.



We should had gave HAL the project management with foreign partners, similar to Dhruv project and not provide it to DRDO, that wanted to do everything differently.

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## Krate M

Beautiful awesome and breathtaking.


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## ni8mare

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=667792233318105

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## ni8mare

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd...._=1423010056_960427042f9196111519a34c4ae5d81e
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd...._=1424188000_64b7ace9aeb705c42339353dee2003c1
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd...._=1424055984_805b2c4f5b4bb148d20d5e67e8f82046

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## Water Car Engineer



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## SpArK

The Guys !
The Unni-Hari combo

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## Water Car Engineer

Jigs for LCH production

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## sancho

I'm in load config comparison mood at the moment, so after LCA ( HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 677 ), here some configs for combat helicopters:

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## SrNair

sancho said:


> I'm in load config comparison mood at the moment, so after LCA ( HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 677 ), here some configs for combat helicopters:
> View attachment 152869
> 
> View attachment 152870
> 
> View attachment 152871



I think our Armed Forces should increase the numbers of LCH.
Except that radar system and slightly higher weapon load capacity.I cant see much advantage in Apache over LCA.

We got an ever evolving mature class helis and industry.Why cant we reapeat the same success in fighter jets?

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## fsayed

*Anybody plz update this chart on lch td 3 latest details*

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## GORKHALI

fsayed said:


> View attachment 153659
> 
> *Anybody plz update this chart on lch td 3 latest details*


It was made by me


----------



## Abingdonboy

sreekumar said:


> I think our Armed Forces should increase the numbers of LCH.


The IA and IAF between them have orders for around 200 units- that is a very nice start.

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## Major Shaitan Singh

Dhruv Poster of the month

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## ironman

TD3 has gone through some diet.☺. shortened its length etc.. hope we get some more info at AI15..


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## Krate M

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> Dhruv Poster of the month
> 
> View attachment 160172


From Ecuadorian airforce rare picture of Dhruv in action. See the roundel and cobra decal on nose


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

With maiden ground run of LUH GTV successful, it's a historic chapter in India's helicopter development progs: HAL

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## Roybot

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> With maiden ground run of LUH GTV successful, it's a historic chapter in India's helicopter development progs: HAL
> 
> View attachment 162139



Great news  We need a separate thread for LUH news and updates.


----------



## sathya

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> With maiden ground run of LUH GTV successful, it's a historic chapter in India's helicopter development progs: HAL
> 
> View attachment 162139




Why it is called GTV , ground test vehicle ?

Won't it fly later ?


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

GTV yes Ground test Vehicle. 
Don't worry it will fly and carry troops and equipment across LOC when needed.

*General characteristics*

*Crew:* 2
*Capacity:* up to 6 passengers
*Empty weight:* 1,675 kg (3,693 lb)
*Powerplant:* 1 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti 1U turboshaft engine, 1,272 kW (1,706 hp)
*Performance*

*Maximum speed:* 280 km/h (174 mph; 151 kn)
*Cruising speed:* 240 km/h (149 mph; 130 kn)
*Never exceed speed:* 330 km/h (205 mph; 178 kn)
*Range:* 351 km; 189 nmi (218 mi)
*Service ceiling:* 6,492 m (21,300 ft)

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## sathya

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> GTV yes Ground test Vehicle.
> Don't worry it will fly and carry troops and equipment across LOC when needed.
> 
> *General characteristics*
> 
> *Crew:* 2
> *Capacity:* up to 6 passengers
> *Empty weight:* 1,675 kg (3,693 lb)
> *Powerplant:* 1 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti 1U turboshaft engine, 1,272 kW (1,706 hp)
> *Performance*
> 
> *Maximum speed:* 280 km/h (174 mph; 151 kn)
> *Cruising speed:* 240 km/h (149 mph; 130 kn)
> *Never exceed speed:* 330 km/h (205 mph; 178 kn)
> *Range:* 351 km; 189 nmi (218 mi)
> *Service ceiling:* 6,492 m (21,300 ft)




I was asking whether this GTV will fly or do we have make another LUH for test *flying* ?


----------



## kaku1

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> With maiden ground run of LUH GTV successful, it's a historic chapter in India's helicopter development progs: HAL
> 
> View attachment 162139


I dont like the doors, can we dont put Gatling gun there,


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

sathya said:


> I was asking whether this GTV will fly or do we have make another LUH for test *flying* ?



Yes the same model will fly, it was initial test to check the engine and basic cockpit functioning.

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## vsdave2302

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> GTV yes Ground test Vehicle.
> Don't worry it will fly and carry troops and equipment across LOC when needed.
> 
> *General characteristics*
> 
> *Crew:* 2
> *Capacity:* up to 6 passengers
> *Empty weight:* 1,675 kg (3,693 lb)
> *Powerplant:* 1 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti 1U turboshaft engine, 1,272 kW (1,706 hp)
> *Performance*
> 
> *Maximum speed:* 280 km/h (174 mph; 151 kn)
> *Cruising speed:* 240 km/h (149 mph; 130 kn)
> *Never exceed speed:* 330 km/h (205 mph; 178 kn)
> *Range:* 351 km; 189 nmi (218 mi)
> *Service ceiling:* 6,492 m (21,300 ft)


 

I am looking forward to an armed version of this with very powerful gun and rockets to oblitrate terrorist.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Lt Gen Philip Campose, Vice Chief of Army Staff, during his visit to HAL facilities in Bangalore


----------



## Supply&Demand



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## 592257001

fsayed said:


> View attachment 153659
> 
> *Anybody plz update this chart on lch td 3 latest details*




LMAO, how you figure that the WZ-10's gun was a 14.5mm Gatling?! I'm not even gonna bother pointing out all the other basic errors in this chart.

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## Nodata

Cant we scrap Apache and get 200 LCH?


----------



## jarves

Nodata said:


> Cant we scrap Apache and get 200 LCH?


Hi,
IAF and army have already ordered about 170 LCH's and orders will only increase from there on once the project is finished.APACHE is all together a different beast.


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## Echo_419

Nodata said:


> Cant we scrap Apache and get 200 LCH?



These 2 Helicopters are of different classes but the mainstay of our attack helo fleet will be of LCHs


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> These 2 Helicopters are of different classes



In public perception, not in operational terms:

HAL LCH| Updates and Discussions | Page 64


----------



## Hindustani78

The Vice President, Shri Mohd. Hamid Ansari visiting the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, in Bangalore on January 07, 2015.

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## MehrotraPrince



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## Hindustani78

The Vice President of India, Mr. M. Hamid Ansari seen with the ALH-Dhruv model at HAL facilities at Bengaluru. Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL (second from left), Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, Director, Design and Development (second from right) and Mr. K. Naresh Babu (right), Director (Bangalore Complex) are also seen





*Bengaluru, January 7, 2015: *

The Vice President of India, Mr. M. Hamid Ansari visited HAL facilities here today. HAL Chairman, Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Director (HR) Mr. V.M. Chamola, Director (D&D), Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, Managing Director of Bangalore Complex, Mr. K. Naresh Babu, and other senior officials accompanied him.

Mr. Ansari evinced keen interest in flight hangars of LCA-Tejas and ALH. He also viewed different aircraft positioned in the HAL premises. With the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) having been achieved for LCA-Tejas in December 2013, HAL is focused on the expeditious production and supply of the aircraft against the first order. The aircraft is expected to be delivered soon.

The ALH-Dhruv helicopter has a proven track record in both military and civil operations. Dhruv has also been exported to Ecuador, Mauritius and Maldives. Dhruv is particularly useful in meeting the arduous tasks in difficult terrains. Dhruv is being operated by Indian defence forces and State governments since 2002. More than 140 Dhruv helicopters are in operation logging more than 1, 20,900 flight hours.

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## Water Car Engineer

TD2

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## RPK



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## RPK



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## vsdave2302

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> With maiden ground run of LUH GTV successful, it's a historic chapter in India's helicopter development progs: HAL
> 
> View attachment 162139


 
Are Major Sahab,

People say that an upgraded engine with 20% higher power is going to be available and LUH and future ALH familiy is going to use the same. Do you or @sancho or any other member has any idea?


----------



## RPK

The LCH TD-3 in the new camo gear.

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## sancho

vsdave2302 said:


> Are Major Sahab,
> 
> People say that an upgraded engine with 20% higher power is going to be available and LUH and future ALH familiy is going to use the same. Do you or @sancho or any other member has any idea?



Not sure about that upgrades, but the LUH gets a varient of the Shakti engine:

HAL selects the Turbomeca Shakti engine over the LHTEC CTS-800

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## Abingdonboy

RPK said:


> The LCH TD-3 in the new camo gear.


Doesn't look like the same digicam on the TD-2 which looked great IMHO.


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

Dhruv helicopter crash in Tena, Ecuador.

In Ecuador, two HAL Dhruv ALHs have crashed in as many weeks. That's over half the FAE Dhruv fleet lost in the 6 years since purchased.

youtu.be/wOLGKr6fM28

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## Etilla

Total 4 Dhruv crashed out of 7.


----------



## Etilla

Lone Ranger said:


> its same news no reports in news for 2nd crash .



Its the 4th crash

1st in 2009
2nd in 2014
3rd last week
4th yesterday

Ecuador loses another Dhruv helo to crash - IHS Jane's 360


----------



## Abingdonboy

Etilla said:


> Its the 4th crash
> 
> 1st in 2009
> 2nd in 2014
> 3rd last week
> 4th yesterday
> 
> Ecuador loses another Dhruv helo to crash - IHS Jane's 360





Major Shaitan Singh said:


> Dhruv helicopter crash in Tena, Ecuador.
> 
> In Ecuador, two HAL Dhruv ALHs have crashed in as many weeks. That's over half the FAE Dhruv fleet lost in the 6 years since purchased.
> 
> youtu.be/wOLGKr6fM28





Etilla said:


> Total 4 Dhruv crashed out of 7.



One needs to ask some hard questions os the level of training these Ecuadorian pilots have and their SOPs, the ALH has an exemplary service record in India with hundreds of the bird in service, Ecuador has under ten and they have had almost as many crashes as India has!

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## Krate M

Abingdonboy said:


> One needs to ask some hard questions os the level of training these Ecuadorian pilots have and their SOPs, the ALH has an exemplary service record in India with hundreds of the bird in service, Ecuador has under ten and they have had almost as many crashes as India has!


Actually Dhruv had a bad record initially in India, same thing with Nepal, probably certain tips about handling it at certain points of flight envelope may need to be passed on. Alternatively thorough review to rule out sabotage may be needed.


----------



## nomi007

it was better to take some assistant from 
*Kamov* russia
like chinese


----------



## Krate M

nomi007 said:


> it was better to take some assistant from
> *Kamov* russia
> like chinese


They won't be useful. Maybe MBB or Eurocopter, if really needed.

But I doubt that they are needed. This seems like a problem already solved by operators of Indian armed forces. Maybe some information exchange is needed.


----------



## nomi007

Krate M said:


> They won't be useful. Maybe MBB or Eurocopter, if really needed.
> 
> But I doubt that they are needed. This seems like a problem already solved by operators of Indian armed forces. Maybe some information exchange is needed.


1st check Chinese z-10


----------



## Krate M

nomi007 said:


> 1st check Chinese z-10


Nomi bhai ALH had MBB consultancy. They would be knowing more than kamov in this particular case. Also they use same engine, so any issues will be known to them.
Kamov has good knowledge of helos in general but MBB or Eurocopter would have specific knowledge. 
I am repeating that our armed forces have solved the issues, so maybe just some tips or info needs to be passed onto the other operators.


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## r101

friends can anyone tell me about development of kaveri gtre


----------



## Krate M

r101 said:


> friends can anyone tell me about development of kaveri gtre


Wrong thread dude


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## Abingdonboy

Krate M said:


> Actually Dhruv had a bad record initially in India, same thing with Nepal, probably certain tips about handling it at certain points of flight envelope may need to be passed on. Alternatively thorough review to rule out sabotage may be needed.


Please explain what you mean about having a "bad record initially" I don't see any evidence for this. It could be argued the Mk.1 and had some issues but they have since been replaced by more advanced and refined versions and the Mk.3 version is what the Ecuadorians have and this is an incredibly advanced and capable helo.



Krate M said:


> probably certain tips about handling it at certain points of flight envelope may need to be passed on



+ the full and updated flight manuals would have been handed over to the EAF.

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## Krate M

@Abingdonboy I think there are two main possible reasons.
1 Dhruv is being sabotaged by some other aerospace player/s.
2 Ecuadorian air force training is lacking
a)in general, then your point applies.
b) at particular flight envelope points where Dhruv has some issues or needs to be handled in a particular way, where my point applies.

I am not inclined to blame Ecuador force training completely. I am open to existence of possible flight envelope quirks, which almost all flying machine have. The initial crashes can indicate such quirks.

The Dhruv is an excellent flying machine.


----------



## r101

lch TD's look good but they should have fire power & also strong shielding as in apache long bow can anyone tell anything about the armour used in the lch & the countermeasures in it in case of emergency . according to me it will compete with the z-10 . lol 1 thing I need to mention friend the camp version of lch is damn cool!


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## Abingdonboy

Krate M said:


> b) at particular flight envelope points where Dhruv has some issues or needs to be handled in a particular way, where my point applies.


If this was true the IA, IAF, IN, ICG and HAL test pilots would have encountered such quirks and come up with a set of procedures in response. Such procedures would have been imparted to the EAF. 



Krate M said:


> 1 Dhruv is being sabotaged by some other aerospace player/s.


I will need to wait for some convincing element before I entertain this bro. 



Krate M said:


> 2 Ecuadorian air force training is lacking


I'm inclined to go for this, I've seen the kind of training IA and IAF pilots go through at places like CATS, are the EAF pilots as throughly trained? I genuinely don't know but the majority of crashes world wide are down to pilot error so this has to be the first suspect in all such crashes and the fact the EAF is encountering such a disproportionate amount of these incidents is pretty telling.


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## Water Car Engineer

*HAL Chief with LCH TD1*

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## Krate M

Abingdonboy said:


> Such procedures would have been imparted to the EAF.
> 
> Are the EAF pilots as throughly trained?


On first point
Such procedures should (would assumes automatic arrangement) have been imparted to EAF. If such an arrangement exists, that is great, but I am bit sceptical.
On second one,
If they are not trained well enough, HAL should push for making incident reports public, making the image of Dhruv better.

On sabotage, you can never be sure.


----------



## Etilla

nomi007 said:


> it was better to take some assistant from
> *Kamov* russia
> like chinese



Dhruv was designed by Germans in the first place.

Problem is in assembly at HAL.

If Eurocopter is still being paid license fees then they need to answer as well


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## gslv mk3

Etilla said:


> Dhruv was designed by Germans in the first place.
> 
> Problem is in assembly at HAL.
> 
> If Eurocopter is still being paid license fees then they need to answer as well

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## sudhir007



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## indiatester

Etilla said:


> Dhruv was designed by Germans *Aliens* in the first place.


There. Corrected it for you.

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## Etilla

indiatester said:


> There. Corrected it for you.



It's ALMOST a *TOTAL rip-off* of the *Kawasaki BK-117* and *"Eurocopter EC-145"* (Which is a variant of the BK-117). A MASSIVE Design failure on the Indian part. Couldn't they have come up with something a BIT more original?

Here's a couple of images that would give you folks a better idea of what I'm talking about ... After all, Images speak louder than words. You be the judge...

*Kawasaki BK-117 - First flight in 1979. Introduced in 1982*







*Dhruv*



----------------------------------------------

*EC-145*



*HAL Dhruv*


---------------------------------------------------------------------

*EC-145*






*HAL Dhruv*


----------------------------------------------------------------------
*EC-145's Cargo Doors*






*HAL Dhruv's cargo doors*



-----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm


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## indiatester

Etilla said:


> It's ALMOST a *TOTAL rip-off* of the *Kawasaki BK-117* and *"Eurocopter EC-145"* (Which is a variant of the BK-117). A MASSIVE Design failure on the Indian part. Couldn't they have come up with something a BIT more original?
> 
> Here's a couple of images that would give you folks a better idea of what I'm talking about ... After all, Images speak louder than words. You be the judge...
> 
> *Kawasaki BK-117 - First flight in 1979. Introduced in 1982
> Dhruv*
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------
> 
> *EC-145*
> 
> 
> 
> *HAL Dhruv*
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *EC-145*
> 
> 
> *HAL Dhruv*
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> *EC-145's Cargo Doors*
> 
> 
> *HAL Dhruv's cargo doors*
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm



@sancho and @greatone can help you out here

They only have similar configuration, but it is not a ripoff.


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## sancho

indiatester said:


> can help you out here
> 
> They only have similar configuration, but it is not a ripoff.



Of course it's not, the design consultant and development partner of the Dhruv was MBB, a German helicopter company which now is part of Airbus. And the same MBB helped Kawasaki too, which is why you see some design similarities like the tail rotor section or the doors, but that are features of the MBB Bo 105, which was the base from which these helicopters were further developed. Etilla is once again confusing things and should inform himself a bit more before claiming things that are not true. 

Anyway, this is the LCH thread so lets stick to that topic here.

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## maniac@666

Etilla said:


> It's ALMOST a *TOTAL rip-off* of the *Kawasaki BK-117* and *"Eurocopter EC-145"* (Which is a variant of the BK-117). A MASSIVE Design failure on the Indian part. Couldn't they have come up with something a BIT more original?
> 
> Here's a couple of images that would give you folks a better idea of what I'm talking about ... After all, Images speak louder than words. You be the judge...
> 
> *Kawasaki BK-117 - First flight in 1979. Introduced in 1982*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Dhruv*
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------
> 
> *EC-145*
> 
> 
> 
> *HAL Dhruv*
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *EC-145*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *HAL Dhruv*
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> *EC-145's Cargo Doors*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *HAL Dhruv's cargo doors*
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm


dude come on now atleast put your original flags.guys just check the first page of the thread@
*India's HAL-Dhruv Helicopter's Design a HUGE Rip-off?*
then you all will understand what his real problem is,that's why he is reiterating like a parrot even after knowing that MBB was design consultant.bhai, nakal ke liye bhi akal chahiye hoti hai.if the manufacturing agency has complete lack of manufacturing ability as you are suggesting in other thread to kya 200 dhruv aur 22 rudr hawa me bana liya?are think tanks allowed to make multiple accounts with false flags to settle their personal score and jealousy.he copied everything word by word not a single word new even the picture.why would any indian member copy posts from pakistani member to degrade our own products,there is tons of info about dhruv.report him to mods guys. @Abingdonboy @gslv mk3 @kurup @SrNair @indiatester @greatone @Mike_Brando @Assault Rifle @Echo_419 @TejasMk3 @Judge @Nilesh Singh @Water Car Engineer @Koovie @sandy_3126 @nair @SpArK @sancho

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## maniac@666

@Abingdonboy @gslv mk3 @kurup @SrNair @indiatester @greatone @Mike_Brando @Assault Rifle @Echo_419 @TejasMk3 @Judge @Nilesh Singh @Water Car Engineer @Koovie @sandy_3126 @nair @sancho @SpArK guys dont take @Etilla seriously.he's a false flagging pakistani troll.just read my above post and check the first page of the thread I mentioned then you can truly identify this troll.he is trolling in each and every ALH Dhruv and LCH thread with impunity because he's a THINK TANK.how can a TT stoop so low.this guy even says that kolkatta class ddg was designed by russians.please report him to mods and lets see what action is taken

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## sudhir007

Here is new camo

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## Echo_419

maniac@666 said:


> @Abingdonboy @gslv mk3 @kurup @SrNair @indiatester @greatone @Mike_Brando @Assault Rifle @Echo_419 @TejasMk3 @Judge @Nilesh Singh @Water Car Engineer @Koovie @sandy_3126 @nair @sancho @SpArK guys dont take @Etilla seriously.he's a false flagging pakistani troll.just read my above post and check the first page of the thread I mentioned then you can truly identify this troll.he is trolling in each and every ALH Dhruv and LCH thread with impunity because he's a THINK TANK.how can a TT stoop so low.this guy even says that kolkatta class ddg was designed by russians.please report him to mods and lets see what action is taken



Thx will leave the false flagger alone from now on


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## Abingdonboy

sudhir007 said:


> Here is new camo


Can't decide if I like it or not. I'd assume this was targeted more at the IAF, the digicam on TD-2 would be more in line with the IA's camo traditions but really it is HAL painting these birds based on whatever criteria they are using (publicity, to stand out, to look good etc etc) and the camos HAL is showcasing will probably not translate into what paint job is seen on the LCHs in service.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## RPK



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## Water Car Engineer

*TD3







TD1*

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> *TD3
> 
> *
> 
> *
> TD1*


Not a fan of this camo, should have gone with the the "Tellis grey" i.e. the standard IAF grey.

Anyway this is just what HAL is painting them, it will be up to the respective services what camps they have.


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## kaku1

TD-3. Looks like A129.

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## gslv mk3



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## topgun047

Abingdonboy said:


> Not a fan of this camo, should have gone with the the "Tellis grey" i.e. the standard IAF grey.
> 
> Anyway this is just what HAL is painting them, it will be up to the respective services what camps they have.



Do you mean Tipnis grey ?
Anyways I like it.


----------



## sancho

Water Car Engineer said:


>



Wonder why they didn't put the drag reduction coverings of the TD2 at the gun and front gears?

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## PARIKRAMA



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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Wonder why they didn't put the drag reduction coverings of the TD2 at the gun and front gears?
> View attachment 194171


Just what I was thinking, perhaps they discovered the added weight wasn't worth the potential drag reduction?


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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Just what I was thinking, perhaps they discovered the added weight wasn't worth the potential drag reduction?




Surely that fairing didnt add that much weight.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Surely that fairing didnt add that much weight.


Perhaps not but even if it was featherlight, if it wasn't worth having on the bird then it makes sense to take it off, no point in having any extra KG onboard if it isn't actually adding performance to the machine.

Perhaps such fairings will be on the production model, who knows but I haven't seen it on any other operational attack helo and that part is a bit telling. It looked very nice and fair enough on HAL for trying some unusual ideas but if it isn't worth it then it isn't worth it.


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## danish_vij

sancho said:


> Wonder why they didn't put the drag reduction coverings of the TD2 at the gun and front gears?
> View attachment 194171


it might b affecting the maneuverability of the gun........like hampering the horizontal angle......
what do u say @Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer 
or just that they havnt assembled it yet


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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> Perhaps not but even if it was featherlight, if it wasn't worth having on the bird then it makes sense to take it off, no point in having any extra KG onboard if it isn't actually adding performance to the machine.
> 
> Perhaps such fairings will be on the production model, who knows but I haven't seen it on any other operational attack helo and that part is a bit telling. It looked very nice and fair enough on HAL for trying some unusual ideas but if it isn't worth it then it isn't worth it.












Z10 and Tiger has a frame over the gun.


----------



## Supply&Demand

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 194224
> 
> View attachment 194225
> 
> View attachment 194226


i have 2 questions for the experts here:

a) why is the camera on the topside.? hw will it take pictures of the ground/

b) The missiles on the wings of the copter is inclined at angle and not straight. in other attack helicopters(z10, apache..) wings r perpendicular. is it a design flaw?


----------



## MokshaVimukthi

Supply&Demand said:


> i have 2 questions for the experts here:
> 
> a) why is the camera on the topside.? hw will it take pictures of the ground ?



The same reason your eyes are above your mouth and your Nose. Do you have problems seeing the ground ? 



> b) The missiles on the wings of the copter is inclined at angle and not straight. in other attack helicopters(z10, apache..) wings r perpendicular. is it a design flaw?



How is it a design flaw ? what is the optimal design ? what is your criteria for design ?


----------



## Supply&Demand

MokshaVimukthi said:


> The same reason your eyes are above your mouth and your Nose. Do you have problems seeing the ground ?
> 
> How is it a design flaw ? what is the optimal design ? what is your criteria for design ?



Wow what an analogy..if i have to see the ground right below my head..i will turn my head towards the ground....so if the helicopter has to see the ground right below..what should the helicopter do? do a 360 deg flip...?


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## Krate M

Abingdonboy said:


> Not a fan of this camo, should have gone with the the "Tellis grey" i.e. the standard IAF grey.
> 
> Anyway this is just what HAL is painting them, it will be up to the respective services what camps they have.


You mean Tipnis grey?

+ @sancho
I think the fairing is not ready

@Supply&Demand
Think rotor downwash, this is a better option, see mi24 mi35 etc, even tiger has bent stub wings not horizontal

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## MokshaVimukthi

Supply&Demand said:


> Wow what an analogy..if i have to see the ground right below my head..i will turn my head towards the ground....so if the helicopter has to see the ground right below..what should the helicopter do? do a 360 deg flip...?



If you want to see the ground BELOW you head i.e. the ground Below your feet, bending your head forward will not help  ......... you need to move your feet.

Same principle with the Heli too.

But if an enemy is right below then its probably too late to look down.


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## RPK



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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Perhaps not but even if it was featherlight, if it wasn't worth having on the bird then it makes sense to take it off, no point in having any extra KG onboard if it isn't actually adding performance to the machine.



I see it as @Water Car Engineer, the weight of the gun fairing as well of those at the gear hardly makes a difference and when you see how many changes they made to the airframe from TD1 to TD3, just to reduce drag, it would be surprising if these things won't be added. Lets see about that.


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## gslv mk3



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## Abingdonboy

^ http://*********************/forum/images/smilies/dude.png

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## Agent_47




----------



## kurup

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568385568561700864

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## Water Car Engineer

kurup said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568385568561700864




Why does the first one have the old wing stubs?


----------



## kurup

Water Car Engineer said:


> Why does the first one have the old wing stubs?



These are the only 3 TDs built ...... all of them have different stub wing design .

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## Water Car Engineer

kurup said:


> These are the only 3 TDs built ...... all of them have different stub wing design .




They dont.

TD1 and TD2 had those old wings replaced a long time ago.

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## sancho

kurup said:


>


 What a sight!!!

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## kurup

Water Car Engineer said:


> They dont.
> 
> TD1 and TD2 had those old wings replaced a long time ago.



Top is TD-1 and bottom is TD-2 . TD-1 still uses the same old wing afaik .

The wing on TD-3 is a refined one of TD-2 .


----------



## Water Car Engineer

kurup said:


> Top is TD-1 and bottom is TD-2 . TD-1 still uses the same old wing afaik .
> 
> The wing on TD-3 is a refined one of TD-2 .




They're both td1.


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## kurup

Water Car Engineer said:


> They're both td1.



I really doubt that ...... maybe @sancho , @Abingdonboy can clarify that .


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## Water Car Engineer

kurup said:


> I really doubt that ...... maybe @sancho , @Abingdonboy can clarify that .



They're all the same..

TD2 also had those type of wings at first too. Both TD1 and 2 were modified.

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## Water Car Engineer

gslv mk3 said:


>




Man, that has to be one of the best shots of LCH I've seen.

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## kurup

Water Car Engineer said:


> They're all the same..
> 
> TD2 also had those type of wings at first too. Both TD1 and 2 were modified.



Looks like you are right bro .


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## RPK



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## MokshaVimukthi

Water Car Engineer said:


>



This is a wonderful picture to compare the efficiency of each Cameo. 

The Digital cameo is the Best since it makes the aircraft harder to identify, it almost fades away into the background  . Second is the latest cameo. Black just makes it stand out like a sore thumb.

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## kurup

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568275324242259969

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## kurup



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## Abingdonboy

kurup said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/568275324242259969


He must mean TD-4 will fly in April *2015 * And IOC for "IAF version" does that mean the IA has a variety of its own and that too with a later IOC? What are the differences between the IAF and IA variants (if there is such service variants) ?

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## Water Car Engineer

TD1






TD3

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## Supply&Demand

Water Car Engineer said:


> TD1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD3



TD3 looks bad@ss!!!! gr8 improvement in design from TD1

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Water Car Engineer




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## Water Car Engineer




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## Gessler

Abingdonboy said:


> He must mean TD-4 will fly in April *2015 * And IOC for "IAF version" does that mean the IA has a variety of its own and that too with a later IOC? What are the differences between the IAF and IA variants (if there is such service variants) ?



Guess Prasun was right after all...the current LCH version does not come with the
specific features that IA wants. Only IAF's requirement for 64 helos will be satisfied
with this version.


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## MokshaVimukthi

When are they going to put EYES on this thing ? 

Haven't anyone yet demanded a RADAR on the LCH ? There seems to be no plans for doing it either. What am I missing ?


----------



## Gessler

MokshaVimukthi said:


> When are they going to put EYES on this thing ?



EYES ?



> Haven't anyone yet demanded a RADAR on the LCH ? There seems to be no plans for doing it either. What am I missing ?



It isn't necessary that all attack helicopters have a radar.


----------



## MokshaVimukthi

Gessler said:


> EYES ?
> 
> It isn't necessary that all attack helicopters have a radar.



How do you expect it to perform any significant attack role without a Radar ? The days of Line of Sight is long gone. Its more than a glorified flying soldier with a gun.


----------



## Gessler

MokshaVimukthi said:


> How do you expect it to perform any significant attack role without a Radar ? The days of Line of Sight is long gone. Its more than a glorified flying soldier with a gun.



Heavy attack/tank buster roles are to be performed by Apaches with Longbow radar.

If IAF thinks no radar is needed for LCH, then no radar is needed end of discussion.


----------



## Gessler

Sri Lankan Air Force has officially requested for the purchase of 20 LCHs : Prasun K. Sengupta

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## itachiii

Gessler said:


> Sri Lankan Air Force has officially requested for the purchase of 20 LCHs : Prasun K. Sengupta



any links ?


----------



## Gessler

itachiii said:


> any links ?



Blogger: TRISHUL - Post a Comment

Last reply by Sengupta.

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## Dillinger

MokshaVimukthi said:


> When are they going to put EYES on this thing ?
> 
> Haven't anyone yet demanded a RADAR on the LCH ? There seems to be no plans for doing it either. What am I missing ?



No one has asked for the integration of a millimetric band radar (although the HELINA will have a millimetric band seeker); quite simply because the MoD, the forces and the OEM have, as always, not sat down and drawn up a concrete plan that meets the requirements of the forces and charts out a plan for the future growth and effective utilization of the LCH (much like the Astra programme never included a parallel effort to create a SR-SAM spin-off).

A mast mounted radar (Millimetric band system because you want low emitted power and an extremely narrow pencil beam mainlobe) will require modifications and the LCH simply does not have the real estate to carry a podded millimetric sensor suite without compromising its ability to carry adequate armaments.



Gessler said:


> Blogger: TRISHUL - Post a Comment
> 
> Last reply by Sengupta.



As welcome as that news is, we are yet to put the bird though its paces ourselves. We can hardly fix a time-table with the Lankans on this let alone stick to one.


----------



## MokshaVimukthi

Dillinger said:


> No one has asked for the integration of a millimetric band radar (although the HELINA will have a millimetric band seeker); quite simply because the MoD, the forces and the OEM have, as always, not sat down and drawn up a concrete plan that meets the requirements of the forces and charts out a plan for the future growth and effective utilization of the LCH (much like the Astra programme never included a parallel effort to create a SR-SAM spin-off).
> 
> A mast mounted radar (Millimetric band system because you want low emitted power and an extremely narrow pencil beam mainlobe) will require modifications and the LCH simply does not have the real estate to carry a podded millimetric sensor suite without compromising its ability to carry adequate armaments.



Then I would squarely blame the IA for this oversight. They should have requested addition of this and provided funds to HAL to show their intent and faith. Especially since they have ordered more LCH than IAF. 

A Nose mounted Radar is very much possible and it requires minimum re-engineering.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

I hope something of the sort is arranged in the next marks.


----------



## Dillinger

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Then I would squarely blame the IA for this oversight. They should have requested addition of this and provided funds to HAL to show their intent and faith. Especially since they have ordered more LCH than IAF.
> 
> A Nose mounted Radar is very much possible and it requires minimum re-engineering.



A nose mounted radar will require re-engineering too, as to whether it would be easier than a mast mounted sensor, well that is a question which only the OEM can answer.

As to who's fault it is, the IA cannot simply give the OEM money and ask them to integrate a sensor, its not nearly that easy. The problem is systemic, the OEM and DPSUs are ineffective when it comes to working with the forces, the forces have no section which is specifically meant to manage projects (they have no program managers they can set to the task) and the MoD has, as always, not done its job. 

No matter who you put at the helm; the problem, being systemic in nature, will continue till you overhaul the mechanisms and processes. Besides the OEM pitched it originally as a IAF centric project and then conveniently forgot that we might need it to do more than shooting down drones.


----------



## MokshaVimukthi

Dillinger said:


> A nose mounted radar will require re-engineering too, as to whether it would be easier than a mast mounted sensor, well that is a question which only the OEM can answer.
> 
> As to who's fault it is, the IA cannot simply give the OEM money and ask them to integrate a sensor, its not nearly that easy. The problem is systemic, the OEM and DPSUs are ineffective when it comes to working with the forces, the forces have no section which is specifically meant to manage projects (they have no program managers they can set to the task) and the MoD has, as always, not done its job.
> 
> No matter who you put at the helm; the problem, being systemic in nature, will continue till you overhaul the mechanisms and processes. Besides the OEM pitched it originally as a IAF centric project and then conveniently forgot that we might need it to do more than shooting down drones.



How do you shoot down drone with a radar ? .......... its ridiculous to depend on vision. What happens at night. 

How on earth can we put this 18 Million $ Helicopter to good use if it does not even have a radar ? 

Akash missile is a FAR better option, its cheaper and effective and efficient.


----------



## indiatester

MokshaVimukthi said:


> How do you shoot down drone with a radar ? .......... its ridiculous to depend on vision. What happens at night.
> 
> How on earth can we put this 18 Million $ Helicopter to good use if it does not even have a radar ?
> 
> Akash missile is a FAR better option, its cheaper and effective and efficient.


Is the purpose of a helicopter air defence?


----------



## MokshaVimukthi

indiatester said:


> Is the purpose of a helicopter air defence?



A Sword is used for both Defence and Offence, is it not ? ............ its true for all weapons.


----------



## Dillinger

MokshaVimukthi said:


> How do you shoot down drone with a radar ? .......... its ridiculous to depend on vision. What happens at night.
> 
> How on earth can we put this 18 Million $ Helicopter to good use if it does not even have a radar ?
> 
> Akash missile is a FAR better option, its cheaper and effective and efficient.



I am not the one putting forth that argument. Apparently the IAF is. At the moment the only guided munition the IAF is looking at is PARS 3, which depends upon target acquisition from the helos passive IR and tele CCD.

As to whether the LCH should have a millimetric radar sensor, of course it should, while the night vision and optical sensors are very well capable of maintaining the LCH's combat efficiency at night the radar (you know, the emissions of a millimetric radar like the longbow is extremely difficult to spot even with a RWR) is still essential if the IA wants a heavy hitter (the platform was never designed with the IA in mind, at least not for the role the IA would need it in) and so the OEM may have to undertake time consuming modifications (much like in the case of the naval LCA).



indiatester said:


> Is the purpose of a helicopter air defence?



Air defense against what? When has a helo been used for air defense, air defense means defending the airspace against hostiles and a helo cannot compete with a true blue combat aircraft. So did we design a combat helo to shoot down other helos and drones; quite wasteful, no?


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## MokshaVimukthi

Dillinger said:


> I am not the one putting forth that argument. Apparently the IAF is. At the moment the only guided munition the IAF is looking at is PARS 3, which depends upon target acquisition from the helos passive IR and tele CCD.
> 
> As to whether the LCH should have a millimetric radar sensor, of course it should, while the night vision and optical sensors are very well capable of maintaining the LCH's combat efficiency at night the radar (you know, the emissions of a millimetric radar like the longbow is extremely difficult to spot even with a RWR) is still essential if the IA wants a heavy hitter (the platform was never designed with the IA in mind, at least not for the role the IA would need it in) and so the OEM may have to undertake time consuming modifications (much like in the case of the naval LCA).
> 
> Air defense against what? When has a helo been used for air defense, air defense means defending the airspace against hostiles and a helo cannot compete with a true blue combat aircraft. So did we design a combat helo to shoot down other helos and drones; quite wasteful, no?



What is surprising is no body seems to be raising this question. Not even on defence forums. 

I am specifically talking about the IA, not the IAF since IA has ordered more LCH than the IAF. IA should have been the one seeking additions.


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## Dillinger

MokshaVimukthi said:


> What is surprising is no body seems to be raising this question. Not even on defence forums.
> 
> I am specifically talking about the IA, not the IAF since IA has ordered more LCH than the IAF. IA should have been the one seeking additions.



Eventually they will get around to it and when they do, well either the project will get delayed or the IA will accept the LCH as it is with a MLU fitment of the radar, OR the IA will push for more Apache Longbows.


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## indiatester

Dillinger said:


> Air defense against what? When has a helo been used for air defense, air defense means defending the airspace against hostiles and a helo cannot compete with a true blue combat aircraft. So did we design a combat helo to shoot down other helos and drones; quite wasteful, no?


That was what I was thinking. But when @MokshaVimukthi said that it needs radar. I could not figure out why it was needed unless it was trying to track and pursue other aircraft.


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## Dillinger

indiatester said:


> That was what I was thinking. But when @MokshaVimukthi said that it needs radar. I could not figure out why it was needed unless it was trying to track and pursue other aircraft.



@MokshaVimukthi is referring to a millimetric-wave radar like the Longbow sensor on the Apache. The radar being referred to here is not meant for engaging other aircraft. Instead, it is meant to detect ground targets under all conditions and then provide target acquisition for a radar-guided "fire and forget" missile.

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## MokshaVimukthi

Dillinger said:


> @MokshaVimukthi is referring to a millimetric-wave radar like the Longbow sensor on the Apache. The radar being referred to here is not meant for engaging other aircraft. Instead, it is meant to detect ground targets under all conditions and then provide target acquisition for a radar-guided "fire and forget" missile.



Also to take down drones.


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## Dillinger

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Also to take down drones.



Cannot be done with the millimetric-wave radar, it just isn't meant for that.


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## sancho

> *LONGBOW FCR*
> The LONGBOW FCR has a very low probability of intercept. It rapidly and automatically searches, detects, locates, classifies, and prioritizes multiple moving and stationary targets on land, water and in the air in all weather and battlefield conditions from standoff ranges. Target coordinates are automatically available to other sensors and weapons for target confirmation, rapid engagement, and reduced fratricide. Target data is digitally available through the data modem for real-time transfer to other platforms and command posts. The self-contained Radar Frequency Interferometer provides rapid and accurate identification and azimuth to enemy air defense units. High system reliability and two-level maintenance maximize operational availability and reduce support costs.
> 
> *LONGBOW HELLFIRE Missile*
> The LONGBOW system employs fire-and-forget LONGBOW HELLFIRE AGM-114L missiles that can be launched from defilade, increasing battlefield survivability. The LONGBOW HELLFIRE missile locks on targets before or after launch and has been used in Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom.



LONGBOW FCR and LONGBOW HELLFIRE Missile · Lockheed Martin




> The Longbow Fire Control Radar and its weapons counterpart, the radar-guided, "fire and forget" Longbow Hellfire missile, enable the potent Apache attack helicopter to detect, classify and prioritize ground targets day or night, in poor weather and obscured conditions; then attack those targets with pinpoint accuracy from ranges that safeguard the lives of the aircrew.



AN/APG-78 Longbow Fire Control Radar

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## MokshaVimukthi

Dillinger said:


> Cannot be done with the millimetric-wave radar, it just isn't meant for that.



Sancho beat me to it........... Longbow can also fire Air 2 Air missiles. e.g. Stinger, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mistral and Sidearm.


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## Dillinger

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Sancho beat me to it........... Longbow can also fire Air 2 Air missiles. e.g. Stinger, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mistral and Sidearm.



Let me rephrase my reply, by its design such a sensor is not the optimum solution for A2A engagements. Longbow can, because it has the required algorithms, that too not against MALE or HALE UAVs, so unless we incorporate the Longbow and somehow find a way to use the 4 hardpoints for both ATGMs and A2A missiles and unguided rocket pods, it will be a no go. A millimetric-wave radar by its design has a max range of no more than 10km, something to keep in mind.

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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Sancho beat me to it........... Longbow can also fire Air 2 Air missiles. e.g. Stinger, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mistral and Sidearm.



Then you must understand, that the prime reason to add the radar is to increase the situational awareness, by being able to search, detect and ID targets at longer ranges. Giving guidance for weapons is if at all only a side effect, but not important, since most weapons on these helicopters doesn't need radar guidance, but often are IR or laser guided. AFAIK the IAF requirement for the Apache included 22 helicopters, but only half as many Longbow radars. I still would prefer DRDO developing a mast mounted radar, maybe with Elta, for a fraction of the costs of the Apaches, and adding them to the LCH instead, not only to make LCH more capable, but to save a lot of money.


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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> Then you must understand, that the prime reason to add the radar is to increase the situational awareness, by being able to search, detect and ID targets at longer ranges. Giving guidance for weapons is if at all only a side effect, but not important, since most weapons on these helicopters doesn't need radar guidance, but often are IR or laser guided. AFAIK the IAF requirement for the Apache included 22 helicopters, but only half as many Longbow radars. I still would prefer DRDO developing a mast mounted radar, maybe with Elta, for a fraction of the costs of the Apaches, and adding them to the LCH instead, not only to make LCH more capable, but to save a lot of money.


The main point of the mast mounted radar is for the Apache to provide target acquisition to its hellifres from defilade. After that the hellfires, being fire and forget missiles, do their job. This has allowed the Apache to sneak up on their opponents quite a few times, albeit it depends upon the terrain. Also terrain profiling and air overwatch are both important functions of the radar, but, a Ka band radar really isn't meant for A2A work.

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## MokshaVimukthi

Dillinger said:


> Let me rephrase my reply, by its design such a sensor is not the optimum solution for A2A engagements. Longbow can, because it has the required algorithms, that too not against MALE or HALE UAVs, so unless we incorporate the Longbow and somehow find a way to use the 4 hardpoints for both ATGMs and A2A missiles and unguided rocket pods, it will be a no go. A millimetric-wave radar by its design has a max range of no more than 10km, something to keep in mind.



Of course its not optimal for A2A engagement. But it can be used for A2A which was my point. Its a capability that is much required in the changing battlefield scenario and operational flexibility.



sancho said:


> Then you must understand, that the prime reason to add the radar is to increase the situational awareness, by being able to search, detect and ID targets at longer ranges. Giving guidance for weapons is if at all only a side effect, but not important, since most weapons on these helicopters doesn't need radar guidance, but often are IR or laser guided. AFAIK the IAF requirement for the Apache included 22 helicopters, but only half as many Longbow radars. I still would prefer DRDO developing a mast mounted radar, maybe with Elta, for a fraction of the costs of the Apaches, and adding them to the LCH instead, not only to make LCH more capable, but to save a lot of money.



That's a bit like saying our Eyes are used only for increasing our situational awareness, by being able to search, detect and ID targets at longer ranges.

Our Eyes are also used for Learning, seeking a prey, tracking, observing, attacking, defending and avoiding obstacles. 

A Radar will do all of this with varying degrees of success.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Indian Light Combat Copter Goes Through Cold Tests*




Cold weather trials of India's Light Combat Helicopter were carried out at Air Force Station, Leh early last month. “The trials covered engine starts with internal batteries after overnight cold soak at 3 km altitude and 4.1 km altitude”, HAL chairman T. Suvarna Raju has said in a statement. The engine starts were satisfactory in the temperature of minus 18 degree C at 4.1 km, the flights were also carried out to assess high altitude performance and low speed handling, the statement said.



The LCH prototype, TD2 was ferried from Bangalore to Leh and the flight trials were carried out involving customer pilots from Air Force and Army and with the participation of representatives from RCMA (H/c) and DGAQA (H/c).

“Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) Technology Demonstrator TD-3 made its maiden flight in November last year and the TD-4 is likely to fly soon. The IOC is expected in the later part of this year and to achieve this we are concentrating on building more prototypes and increase the number of flights to reduce the lead-time for IOC”, Raju said.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Monday, March 02, 2015*

*Indian Light Combat Copter Goes Through Cold Tests
*




Cold weather trials of India's Light Combat Helicopter were carried out at Air Force Station, Leh early last month. 

*“The trials covered engine starts with internal batteries after overnight cold soak at 3 km altitude and 4.1 km altitude”,* 

HAL chairman T. Suvarna Raju has said in a statement. *The engine starts were satisfactory in the temperature of minus 18 degree C at 4.1 km, the flights were also carried out to assess high altitude performance and low speed handling, the statement said.*






The LCH prototype, TD2 was ferried from Bangalore to Leh and the flight trials were carried out involving customer pilots from Air Force and Army and with the participation of representatives from RCMA (H/c) and DGAQA (H/c).

*“Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) Technology Demonstrator TD-3 made its maiden flight in November last year and the TD-4 is likely to fly soon. The IOC is expected in the later part of this year and to achieve this we are concentrating on building more prototypes and increase the number of flights to reduce the lead-time for IOC”*, Raju said.
*
LIVEFIST: Indian Light Combat Copter Goes Through Cold Tests*

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## MokshaVimukthi

Damn this Digital cameo makes the LCH disappear into the background.

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## kurup



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## CONNAN

*to all fellow LCH fans  *

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## Water Car Engineer

*Aero India 2015*

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## sancho

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/574695526404239361

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## Kamil_baku

indiatester said:


> That was what I was thinking. But when @MokshaVimukthi said that it needs radar. I could not figure out why it was needed unless it was trying to track and pursue other aircraft.


Its not actually for air defense.. In case of foggy, sandy, rainy, or at night with limited thermal camera and enemy can also use things to block your view.. (you name it) weather, you camera cant see the enemy and basically cant track and shoot it. 
But, with millimetr wave radar, you helicopter is capable to destroy any opposite object.. 
I will copy paste a link, which is in Turkish(Turkey working on the radar for its T129 helicopter) but it explains in the video the advantage of it.. 




I believe USA doesnt sell this radar to other helicopters, and which make other nationalities to pay for Longbow.. you have to develop it yourself..
Also, its used in UAV technology to control the UAV and its landing...

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
17-March, 2015 15:06 IST 
*
Manufacturing of Helicopters in the Country *

Defence Acquisition Council has taken a decision to procure 384 Light Helicopters for Indian Air Force (IAF) & Indian Army and 56 Naval Utility Helicopters through ‘Buy & Make (Indian)’ route. Acquisition covered under the ‘Buy & Make (Indian)’ route would mean purchase from an Indian vendor (including Indian company forming the joint venture / establishing production arrangement with Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs), followed by licensed production / indigenous manufacture in the country. 

Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) has decided to augment its helicopters manufacturing capacity of Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) from 24 to 36 helicopters per annum. This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh in a written reply to Shri Ravi Prakash Verma in Rajya Sabha today.


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## Water Car Engineer

enjoy

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## Major Shaitan Singh

*ALH fuel tank crash impact test done 1st time @ HAL's Composite Manufacturing Div. Earlier tests done in UK. *

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## IrbiS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/580287989252689920

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## Techy

Some old images of HAL LCH TD3 taken during its first flight:












​

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## Water Car Engineer



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## kaku1

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Rudra escorting LCHs, or LCHs escorting Rudra, little bit confused.

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## Water Car Engineer

TD3 seem to have it's gun fairing attached.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Daring Dhruv.
Jai Hind!*

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## Manindra

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> *Daring Dhruv.
> Jai Hind!*



This Picture place is in Indian Military Picture Thread.


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## Water Car Engineer

@Myth_buster_1

What German design?






















TD3






Helina Anti Tank Missile Trials

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## Water Car Engineer




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## GURU DUTT

Water Car Engineer said:


>


this one looks closer to production model any details ?

but looks sleeker and wepon stations look more bolsterred and bigger with more space between the pylons


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## Hindustani78

25-06-2015
T Suvarna Raju, who took over as HAL chairman 

*What about HAL's own projects? What can we expect going forward?*

We have mastered the art of rotary aircraft or helicopters. The Dhruv (utilitygovhelicopter) has proved its existence.* Our next product will be the Light Combat Helicopter which will get operational clearance this year. The Light Utility Helicopter is also going to fly this year. We expect to get operational clearance by 2017. *We are still working on the BAE Systems Hawk trainer aircraft. Sukhois will be produced for another four years. Another 60 aircraft are to be delivered yet according to the contract.


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## Water Car Engineer

GURU DUTT said:


> this one looks closer to production model any details ?
> 
> but looks sleeker and wepon stations look more bolsterred and bigger with more space between the pylons




It's the third prototype.



> BENGALURU: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's (HAL) indigenously designed and developed Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) attained a milestone by successfully completing hot weather flight trials for a nearly one week at Jodhpur recently. LCH prototype, TD-3 was ferried from Bengaluru to Jodhpur to achieve the trials.
> 
> "Test flights were carried out in the temperature range of 39 to 42 degree Celsius. These were done with the involvement of customer pilots from Indian Air Force and Army in presence of representatives from RCMA and DGAQA", said HAL's CMD T Suvarana Raju.
> 
> According to HAL, the flight testing covered 'temperature survey of engine bay and hydraulic system', 'assessment of performance', 'handling qualities and loads' at different 'all up weights', 'low speed handling' and 'height-velocity diagram establishment'.




HAL's LCH successfully completes hot weather flight trials - The Economic Times















New pics

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## HariPrasad

Water Car Engineer said:


> *Aero India 2015*



It was told that 250 to 300 KG weight shall be reduced in TD 3 compared to TD2.

Do you have any idea of weight reduction or performance improvement in TD3 compared to TD2?


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## Water Car Engineer

HariPrasad said:


> It was told that 250 to 300 KG weight shall be reduced in TD 3 compared to TD2.
> 
> Do you have any idea of weight reduction or performance improvement in TD3 compared to TD2?




Not aware.

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## Super Commando Dhruva

Can we put a disc on the TOP of that rotter ?


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## Robinhood Pandey

Water Car Engineer said:


> Not aware.




Armed with Helina ?


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## Manindra

Robinhood Pandey said:


> Armed with Helina ?


Yes, along with 70 mm rockets & 20mm gun.


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## Robinhood Pandey

Manindra said:


> Yes, along with 70 mm rockets & 20mm gun.


I was talking about this particular pic, bro


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## IND151

Super Commando Dhruva said:


> Can we put a disc on the TOP of that rotter ?



Radar Dome like Apache?

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## Super Commando Dhruva

You got it right man, Its the radar that makes it different from others.


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## Hindustani78

Light Combat Helicopter clears hot weather trial - The Hindu
Updated: June 27, 2015 05:33 IST

The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), being developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), has successfully completed week-long hot weather flight trials at Jodhpur. *It is expected to achieve Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and enter series production by the end of the year.*

*“Test flights were carried out in the temperature range of 39 to 42 degrees Celsius. These were done with the involvement of customer pilots from the Indian Air Force and the Army in the presence of representatives from the Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness and the Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance,” T. Suvarna Raju, CMD of HAL said on Friday.*

The* LCH prototype TD-3 was ferried from Bengaluru to Jodhpur for the trials and the testing involved temperature survey of engine bay and hydraulic system, assessment of performance, handling qualities and loads at different all up weights, low speed handling and height-velocity diagram establishment.*

*Cold weather trials h*ad been satisfactorily completed *in March at Leh at a temperature of minus 18 degrees Celsius and altitude of 4.1 km. High altitude performance and low-speed handling were also tested as part of the trials.*

*The LCH is a 5.8-tonne, twin-engine, armed helicopter designed specifically to meet the requirements of the Army and the Air Force*. The *HAL already has a firm order for 65 from the Air Force and 114 from the Army.* This number is expected to go up given the Army’s plan to have attack helicopters included in all formations for close air support.

The government earlier informed Parliament that a production plan for LCH had been made for 2017-18, subject to a firm order from the Indian Air Force for limited series production


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## Echo_419

IND151 said:


> Radar Dome like Apache?



We should aim for gradual upgradation of the platform rather than going to integrate every single thing & delay it for years to come

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## surya kiran

Echo_419 said:


> We should aim for gradual upgradation of the platform rather than going to integrate every single thing & delay it for years to come



Test, induct and then upgrade them in a scheduled manner via roadmap.

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## Water Car Engineer

Robinhood Pandey said:


> I was talking about this particular pic, bro



Mistral air to air missile.


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## Echo_419

surya kiran said:


> Test, induct and then upgrade them in a scheduled manner via roadmap.



Exactly


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## IND151

Echo_419 said:


> We should aim for gradual upgradation of the platform rather than going to integrate every single thing & delay it for years to come



Agreed, but sancho may disagree.

@sancho

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## Manindra

IND151 said:


> Agreed, but sancho may disagree.
> 
> @sancho


@sancho is a big supporter of LCH & oppose purchase of Apache.


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## kaku1

Manindra said:


> @sancho is a big supporter of LCH & oppose purchase of Apache.


We need both Apache and LCH,, and ofcourse LCH with MMW radar.

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## Echo_419

IND151 said:


> Agreed, but sancho may disagree.
> 
> @sancho



Why


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## Agent_47

Manindra said:


> @sancho is a big supporter of LCH & oppose purchase of Apache.


BTW where is he ?!


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## fenku



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## Manindra

Agent_47 said:


> BTW where is he ?!


I don't know may be busy in his social and professional life.


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## Super Commando Dhruva

How cheap


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## Manindra

Super Commando Dhruva said:


> How cheap


Its Z-19 
main opponent is Z-10


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## IND151

Hindustani78 said:


> Light Combat Helicopter clears hot weather trial - The Hindu
> Updated: June 27, 2015 05:33 IST
> 
> The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), being developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), has successfully completed week-long hot weather flight trials at Jodhpur. *It is expected to achieve Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and enter series production by the end of the year.*
> 
> *“Test flights were carried out in the temperature range of 39 to 42 degrees Celsius. These were done with the involvement of customer pilots from the Indian Air Force and the Army in the presence of representatives from the Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness and the Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance,” T. Suvarna Raju, CMD of HAL said on Friday.*
> 
> The* LCH prototype TD-3 was ferried from Bengaluru to Jodhpur for the trials and the testing involved temperature survey of engine bay and hydraulic system, assessment of performance, handling qualities and loads at different all up weights, low speed handling and height-velocity diagram establishment.*
> 
> *Cold weather trials h*ad been satisfactorily completed *in March at Leh at a temperature of minus 18 degrees Celsius and altitude of 4.1 km. High altitude performance and low-speed handling were also tested as part of the trials.*
> 
> *The LCH is a 5.8-tonne, twin-engine, armed helicopter designed specifically to meet the requirements of the Army and the Air Force*. The *HAL already has a firm order for 65 from the Air Force and 114 from the Army.* This number is expected to go up given the Army’s plan to have attack helicopters included in all formations for close air support.
> 
> The government earlier informed Parliament that a production plan for LCH had been made for 2017-18, subject to a firm order from the Indian Air Force for limited series production



Very good news


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## Super Commando Dhruva

This one ?

It's not right to compare both machines, our Mosquito look quite smaller, May be Mark 2 would be comparable. AH would take care of these Dragon FLYs. I wish we get LCH as soon as possible.

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## kurup

Super Commando Dhruva said:


> This one ?
> 
> It's not right to compare both machines, our Mosquito look quite smaller, May be Mark 2 would be comparable. AH would take care of these Dragon FLYs. I wish we get LCH as soon as possible.



This thread is about LCH .

SO please don't post news about cr@p and invite the retard trolls .

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## kaku1

Super Commando Dhruva said:


> This one ?
> 
> It's not right to compare both machines, our Mosquito look quite smaller, May be Mark 2 would be comparable. AH would take care of these Dragon FLYs. I wish we get LCH as soon as possible.



Crash is normal thing for maturity bro.

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## Manindra

Super Commando Dhruva said:


> This one ?
> 
> It's not right to compare both machines, our Mosquito look quite smaller, May be Mark 2 would be comparable. AH would take care of these Dragon FLYs. I wish we get LCH as soon as possible.



Both have nearly same payload.


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## sathya

*India's LCH completes hot weather trials, moves closer to IOC*
*Rahul Bedi, New Delhi and James Hardy, London* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
29 June 2015




The third prototype of HAL's Light Combat Helicopter, seen here at Aero India 2015, completed its hot weather trials on 26 June. Source: IHS/James Hardy
India's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) moved a step closer to obtaining initial operational clearance (IOC) after successfully completing hot weather trials in Jodhpur on 26 June.

Test flights were carried out in temperatures of 39 to 42º C in the Rajasthan desert, according to T Suvarna Raju, chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is developing the platform.

"These were done with the involvement of customer pilots from the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Army Aviation Corps (AAC)," he said.

Representatives from the Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness and the Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance also witnessed the week-long trials featuring the third LCH prototype (TD-3).

Both organisations are involved in securing the LCH's IOC - expected later this year - and subsequent full operational clearance. IOC was supposed to be gained in 2012.

HAL officials said the twin-engine 5.8-tonne LCH would enter limited series production by the year-end to eventually fulfil the AAC's order for 114 helicopters and the IAF's for 65 platforms.

They said this number was expected to increase, as the Indian Army planned to deploy LCH squadrons to all its 13 corps and a handful of independent formations for anti-tank operations, close air support, and battlefield surveillance.

The LCH is also being configured for anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel warfare.

HAL claimed the LCH's flight-testing in Jodhpur included a temperature survey of its engine bay and hydraulic system and overall handling qualities, especially of loads at low speeds, when its engines are deprived of oxygen in searing hot temperatures.

The LCH's 800 hp PM-33B Shakti engines have been developed jointly by HAL and France's Turbomeca.

Shakti engines also power the HAL-designed Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and Rudra, its weaponised variant, both of which are in service with the IAF and the AAC.

The LCH, which made its maiden test flight in May 2010, successfully completed cold weather flight trials in India's Himalayan region of Ladakh in February.

Operating from a helipad at 4,600 m, it started on its internal batteries after an overnight stopover or 'soak' in temperatures of -18º C. After that, it operated successfully at altitudes of 6,500 m, its required service ceiling.

Officials said the LCH is scheduled to return to Ladakh over the next few weeks for 'hot and high' trials.

These will seek to validate the helicopter's ability to operate in mountainous conditions where oxygen, normally in short supply due to the altitude, is further reduced in high summer temperatures.

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## Perpendicular

sathya said:


> *India's LCH completes hot weather trials, moves closer to IOC*
> *Rahul Bedi, New Delhi and James Hardy, London* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 29 June 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The third prototype of HAL's Light Combat Helicopter, seen here at Aero India 2015, completed its hot weather trials on 26 June. Source: IHS/James Hardy
> India's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) moved a step closer to obtaining initial operational clearance (IOC) after successfully completing hot weather trials in Jodhpur on 26 June.
> 
> Test flights were carried out in temperatures of 39 to 42º C in the Rajasthan desert, according to T Suvarna Raju, chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is developing the platform.
> 
> "These were done with the involvement of customer pilots from the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Army Aviation Corps (AAC)," he said.
> 
> Representatives from the Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness and the Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance also witnessed the week-long trials featuring the third LCH prototype (TD-3).
> 
> Both organisations are involved in securing the LCH's IOC - expected later this year - and subsequent full operational clearance. IOC was supposed to be gained in 2012.
> 
> HAL officials said the twin-engine 5.8-tonne LCH would enter limited series production by the year-end to eventually fulfil the AAC's order for 114 helicopters and the IAF's for 65 platforms.
> 
> They said this number was expected to increase, as the Indian Army planned to deploy LCH squadrons to all its 13 corps and a handful of independent formations for anti-tank operations, close air support, and battlefield surveillance.
> 
> The LCH is also being configured for anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel warfare.
> 
> HAL claimed the LCH's flight-testing in Jodhpur included a temperature survey of its engine bay and hydraulic system and overall handling qualities, especially of loads at low speeds, when its engines are deprived of oxygen in searing hot temperatures.
> 
> The LCH's 800 hp PM-33B Shakti engines have been developed jointly by HAL and France's Turbomeca.
> 
> Shakti engines also power the HAL-designed Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and Rudra, its weaponised variant, both of which are in service with the IAF and the AAC.
> 
> The LCH, which made its maiden test flight in May 2010, successfully completed cold weather flight trials in India's Himalayan region of Ladakh in February.
> 
> Operating from a helipad at 4,600 m, it started on its internal batteries after an overnight stopover or 'soak' in temperatures of -18º C. After that, it operated successfully at altitudes of 6,500 m, its required service ceiling.
> 
> Officials said the LCH is scheduled to return to Ladakh over the next few weeks for 'hot and high' trials.
> 
> These will seek to validate the helicopter's ability to operate in mountainous conditions where oxygen, normally in short supply due to the altitude, is further reduced in high summer temperatures.


This new cameo is a killa, i hope they stick with it or go with a matt black.
By the way am guessing these helos would have air conditioning.

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## #hydra#

Congrats... Our next goal should be the development of new state of the art attack helicopter in heavy category with fire control radar


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## Water Car Engineer

bigger pic

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## Super Commando Dhruva

Water Car Engineer said:


> bigger pic


I don't know but I see comache in it.

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## GURU DUTT

Super Commando Dhruva said:


> I don't know but I see comache in it.


u nailed it 

and maybe a cross between cobra and comanche


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## Super Commando Dhruva

See they have painted it in T 50 paint scheme . Landing gear goes inside, Internal weapon bay Tail rooter adjustment, We have The 5th Gen chopper here, LOLLL... But definitely Intention is there.

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## GURU DUTT

Super Commando Dhruva said:


> See they have painted it in T 50 paint scheme . Landing gear goes inside, Internal weapon bay Tail rooter adjustment, *We have The 5th Gen chopper here, LOLLL... But definitely Intention is there*.


well almost


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## amriRDX

Can someone please tell me when did this happen.
"* LCH being configured for for anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel warfare.*"


sathya said:


> for anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel warfare.


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## Super Commando Dhruva

amriRDX said:


> Can someone please tell me when did this happen.
> "* LCH being configured for for anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel warfare.*"


.


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## amriRDX

@Super Commando Dhruva what? 
Answering my question or what?


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## Ankit Kumar 001

Anyone , status of TD4? Has its fuselage fabrication started?


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## Super Commando Dhruva

amriRDX said:


> @Super Commando Dhruva what?
> Answering my question or what?



Bhai pad too le mene likha kaya hai 

When did I say * LCH being configured for for anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel warfare.*"

I mean what you are talking about ?


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## Ankit Kumar 001

Anti submarine or Anti ship role presently is not possible for HAL LCH. 
Mainly because of 2 reasons.

1. Lack of a radar.
2. Lack of a sonar.

We might be able to turn it into a anti surface role by adding a radar in future but anti submarine role according to me is not possible, given its a LCH.


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## Water Car Engineer

HAL LCH TD-3 Passes Hot & High Altitude Trails at Leh - First Attack Helicopter to Land at Siachen

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## Odysseus

“These seasonal trials – including cold weather trials carried out at Leh during February this year – have been completed as part of the certification process. The flight trials at Leh have established hover performance and low speed handling characteristics of the helicopter under extreme weather conditions at different altitudes (3200 to 4800 m). During the trials, the helicopter and systems performed satisfactorily. LCH also has proven its capability to land and take off at Forward Landing Base in Siachen. LCH is the first attack helicopter to land in Forward Bases at Siachen”, says Mr.T. Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL.

The trials were carried out on the third prototype of LCH (TD3) at Leh at the temperatures ranging from 13 to 27 degree centigrade with the participation of user pilots from Air Force, Army and representatives from CEMILAC and DGAQA.

Various tests included assessment and validation of flight envelope in ‘Hot-and-High’ conditions, culminating in landing at forward bases at geographic elevations of 13,600 feet to 15,800 feet. These landings and take-offs were demonstrated with reasonable amount of weapon load and fuel.

*Challenges at Leh:*

The upper reaches of the Indus river and its tributaries, Nubra and Shyok are home to the mighty Ladakh and Eastern Karakorum Ranges, with multiple lofty peaks over 25,000 feet and an average ridgeline elevation of 20,000 feet.

It is also home to the largest glaciated area outside the Polar Regions and is sometimes called the ‘Third Pole’.

The Siachen is the largest glacier here and is central to this region. The area experiences a period of summer during July-August in which temperatures soar to 30 degrees above standard atmosphere conditions.

This mix of extreme altitudes and relatively high temperatures (‘Hot-and-High’) saps helicopter performance and as such, a few types of helicopters are able to operate effectively all year around.


*LCH Progress:*

With the extensive trials carried out on three prototypes at Bengaluru, sea level at Chennai in November 2013, cold weather at Leh during January/February 2015, hot weather at Jodhpur in July 2015 and hot and high altitude trials at a few days ago at Leh, the performance and handling qualities of the helicopter have been established for basic configuration (with EO Pod, Rocket launchers, Turret Gun and Air-to-Air missile launchers).

The system functionalities have been assessed and found satisfactory during the trials and long-duration ferry across India. Further development activities are under progress and the weapon firing trials are planned during in the middle of 2016.

The advantage of indigenous development of helicopters such as ALH, LCH and LUH at HAL is that the users’ requirement are well captured right from early design stage and are fine-tuned as the project progresses with the involvement of users so that the product complies to the stringent operational requirements at high altitudes (Himalayan and North Eastern terrains).

First Attack Helicopter to Land at Forward Base: HAL Completes Hot & High Altitude Trials of LCH at Leh » Indian Defence Review


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## Ankit Kumar 001

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/641608281081839616

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## Water Car Engineer

Old pic of TD2


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## SR-91

Water Car Engineer said:


> Old pic of TD2



Nice!!!!!

I'll call it "SLIM SHADEY".

When is TD4 due?

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## Water Car Engineer

SR-91 said:


> Nice!!!!!
> 
> I'll call it "SLIM SHADEY".
> 
> *When is TD4 due?*




Beginning of 2015...

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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> When is TD4 due?





Water Car Engineer said:


> Beginning of 2015...



Around September/October 2015 according to HAL a few months ago.

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## Ankit Kumar 001

Reports suggest the TD4 structure is almost complete. Engines and some other systems have also been installed. Some ground tests will be done in the HAL assembly itself before rolling it out.

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## SR-91

Water Car Engineer said:


> Beginning of 2015...





Abingdonboy said:


> Around September/October 2015 according to HAL a few months ago.




you mean its been flying and we haven't seen it yet


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## Ankit Kumar 001

First week of November will be more realistic.
After all the electric and other installations quite a few tests are conducted on the vehicle.


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## Water Car Engineer

Ankit Kumar 001 said:


> Reports suggest the TD4 structure is almost complete. Engines and some other systems have also been installed. Some ground tests will be done in the HAL assembly itself before rolling it out.




I've heard those reports way back in 2014-2015, not sure what's taking so long.

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## Ankit Kumar 001

Same here sir, but there could be a probability. Remember those reports also mentioned that They will incorporate some improvements suggested by the Army. I think that Army would have suggested something which might be being worked upon. 

But it is only a probability. Cannot say about the exact reason.


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## Perpendicular

surya kiran said:


> Test, induct and then upgrade them in a scheduled manner via roadmap.


About time HAL should start working on further upgraded design derivative of LCH.

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## Ind4Ever

*@abingd @PARIKRAMA LCH : The twin-engine ,Double trouble for our enemies 




*
@Areesh @Imran Khan bhai log Dar ayenga kya

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## knight11

*HAL Completes Hot and High Altitude Trials of LCH at Leh*
-First Attack Helicopter to Land at Forward Base 








Bangalore. HAL has successfully carried out the hot and the high-altitude trials of the indigenously designed, developed attack chopper Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) at Leh recently. 


“These seasonal trials - including cold weather trials carried out at Leh during February this year - have been completed as part of the certification process. The flight trials at Leh have established hover performance and low speed handling characteristics of the helicopter under extreme weather conditions at different altitudes (3200 to 4800 m). During the trials, the helicopter and systems performed satisfactorily," according to Mr T Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL.

 
LCH also has proven its capability to land and take off at a Forward Landing Base in Siachen, he said pointing out that LCH is also the first attack helicopter to land at such heights.







The trials were carried out on the third prototype of LCH (TD3) at Leh at the temperatures ranging from 13 to 27 degree centigrade with the participation of user pilots from Air Force, Army and representatives from CEMILAC and DGAQA. Various tests included assessment and validation of flight envelope in ‘Hot-and-High’ conditions, culminating in landing at forward bases at geographic elevations of 13,600 feet to 15,800 feet. These landings and take-offs were demonstrated with reasonable amount of weapon load and fuel.

*Challenges at Leh*
The upper reaches of the Indus river and its tributaries, Nubra and Shyok are home to the mighty Ladakh and Eastern Karakorum Ranges, with multiple lofty peaks over 25,000 feet and an average ridgeline elevation of 20,000 feet. It is also home to the largest glaciated area outside the Polar Regions and is sometimes called the ‘Third Pole’.

Siachen is the largest glacier here and is central to this region. The area experiences a period of summer during July-August in which temperatures soar to 30 degrees above standard atmosphere conditions. This mix of extreme altitudes and relatively high temperatures (‘Hot-and-High’) saps helicopter performance and as such, a few types of helicopters are able to operate effectively all year around.

*LCH Progress*
With the extensive trials carried out on three prototypes at Bangalore, sea level at Chennai in November 2013, cold weather at Leh during January/February 2015, hot weather at Jodhpur in July 2015 and hot and high altitude trials at Leh recently, the performance and handling qualities of the helicopter have been established for basic configuration (with EO Pod, Rocket launchers, Turret Gun and Air-to-Air missile launchers). The system functionalities have been assessed and found satisfactory during the trials and long-duration ferry across India.

Further development activities are under progress and the weapon firing trials are planned in the middle of 2016, Mr Raju said.

The advantage of indigenous development of helicopters such as ALH, LCH and LUH at HAL is that the users’ requirement are well captured right from early design stage and are fine-tuned as the project progresses with the involvement of users so that the product complies to the stringent operational requirements at high altitudes (Himalayan and North Eastern terrains).


_* © India Strategic* _


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## Ind4Ever

knight11 said:


> *HAL Completes Hot and High Altitude Trials of LCH at Leh*
> -First Attack Helicopter to Land at Forward Base
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bangalore. HAL has successfully carried out the hot and the high-altitude trials of the indigenously designed, developed attack chopper Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) at Leh recently.
> 
> 
> “These seasonal trials - including cold weather trials carried out at Leh during February this year - have been completed as part of the certification process. The flight trials at Leh have established hover performance and low speed handling characteristics of the helicopter under extreme weather conditions at different altitudes (3200 to 4800 m). During the trials, the helicopter and systems performed satisfactorily," according to Mr T Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL.
> 
> 
> LCH also has proven its capability to land and take off at a Forward Landing Base in Siachen, he said pointing out that LCH is also the first attack helicopter to land at such heights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The trials were carried out on the third prototype of LCH (TD3) at Leh at the temperatures ranging from 13 to 27 degree centigrade with the participation of user pilots from Air Force, Army and representatives from CEMILAC and DGAQA. Various tests included assessment and validation of flight envelope in ‘Hot-and-High’ conditions, culminating in landing at forward bases at geographic elevations of 13,600 feet to 15,800 feet. These landings and take-offs were demonstrated with reasonable amount of weapon load and fuel.
> 
> *Challenges at Leh*
> The upper reaches of the Indus river and its tributaries, Nubra and Shyok are home to the mighty Ladakh and Eastern Karakorum Ranges, with multiple lofty peaks over 25,000 feet and an average ridgeline elevation of 20,000 feet. It is also home to the largest glaciated area outside the Polar Regions and is sometimes called the ‘Third Pole’.
> 
> Siachen is the largest glacier here and is central to this region. The area experiences a period of summer during July-August in which temperatures soar to 30 degrees above standard atmosphere conditions. This mix of extreme altitudes and relatively high temperatures (‘Hot-and-High’) saps helicopter performance and as such, a few types of helicopters are able to operate effectively all year around.
> 
> *LCH Progress*
> With the extensive trials carried out on three prototypes at Bangalore, sea level at Chennai in November 2013, cold weather at Leh during January/February 2015, hot weather at Jodhpur in July 2015 and hot and high altitude trials at Leh recently, the performance and handling qualities of the helicopter have been established for basic configuration (with EO Pod, Rocket launchers, Turret Gun and Air-to-Air missile launchers). The system functionalities have been assessed and found satisfactory during the trials and long-duration ferry across India.
> 
> Further development activities are under progress and the weapon firing trials are planned in the middle of 2016, Mr Raju said.
> 
> The advantage of indigenous development of helicopters such as ALH, LCH and LUH at HAL is that the users’ requirement are well captured right from early design stage and are fine-tuned as the project progresses with the involvement of users so that the product complies to the stringent operational requirements at high altitudes (Himalayan and North Eastern terrains).
> 
> 
> _* © India Strategic* _



Firing trails only in mid 2016 ... Are we going very slow ? Prototype flying for very long time ? Any idea hoe far we are running behind when compared with chinese or russian ?

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## ni8mare

Ind4Ever said:


> Firing trails only in mid 2016 ... Are we going very slow ? Prototype flying for very long time ? Any idea hoe far we are running behind when compared with chinese or russian ?


too slow ..by now they should have got IOC


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## Ind4Ever

ni8mare said:


> too slow ..by now they should have got IOC



Do need to relax our norms for induction ? Like china which could had inducted LCH by now and would had gone for mass production . While keeping the upgrades alive . Best way to gain number amd quality superiority . Our standards are cery high even compared to many western countries.

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## Abingdonboy

Ind4Ever said:


> Do need to relax our norms for induction ? Like china which could had inducted LCH by now and would had gone for mass production . While keeping the upgrades alive . Best way to gain number amd quality superiority . Our standards are cery high even compared to many western countries.


Optimising a design to operate across the entire spectrum of theatres the Indian military operates in from the Thar to Siachin and everything in between is no joke it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort. That the LCA, ALH and LCH all have a perfect flight safety record during development speaks volumes.

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## Ind4Ever

Abingdonboy said:


> Optimising a design to operate across the entire spectrum of theatres the Indian military operates in from the Thar to Siachin and everything in between is no joke it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort. That the LCA, ALH and LCH all have a perfect flight safety record during development speaks volumes.



Well I agree at some extend of our terrains  But its better we induct in mass numbers aggressively once fight yest is been cleared . As of now we will habe to wait for weapon trails to get inducted which means flying safely is been cleared as next step is to integrate with weapons .  isn't it ?



Abingdonboy said:


> Optimising a design to operate across the entire spectrum of theatres the Indian military operates in from the Thar to Siachin and everything in between is no joke it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort. That the LCA, ALH and LCH all have a perfect flight safety record during development speaks volumes.



Well I agree at some extend of our terrains  But its better we induct in mass numbers aggressively once fight yest is been cleared . As of now we will habe to wait for weapon trails to get inducted which means flying safely is been cleared as next step is to integrate with weapons .  isn't it ?


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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> Optimising a design to operate across the entire spectrum of theatres the Indian military operates in from the Thar to Siachin and everything in between is no joke it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort. That the LCA, ALH and LCH all have a perfect flight safety record during development speaks volumes.




TD4 is suppose to be the last prototype, With its flight due by end of the year, It looks like we are getting close to induction. We havent heard anything about its successor, Do you think they have Stealth MCH in mind?


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## knight11

Abingdonboy said:


> Optimising a design to operate across the entire spectrum of theatres the Indian military operates in from the Thar to Siachin and everything in between is no joke it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort. That the LCA, ALH and LCH all have a perfect flight safety record during development speaks volumes.


Yes Indeed and there is point in no point in to do comparison with the Chinese at this point and better concentrate on the job for our own requirement. Chinese have more funds allotted, and do have the export in their mind provided heavy inputs from Russian Companies for the avionics and airframe design and have many former Soviet technicians and Scientist hired.

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## Hindustani78

By Smriti Jain, ECONOMICTIMES.COM | 18 Sep, 2015, 01.25PM IST 
HAL's LCH: Made in India combat helicopter eyes weapon firing trials - The Economic Times

NEW DELHI: Giving a leg up to the focus on indigenous defence production, India's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is now eyeing weapon-based trials with its fourth technology demonstrator, TD-4. The weapon firing trials are planned for the middle of 2016.


The LCH is a twin-engine helicopter of 5.8-ton class designed and developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to meet the requirements of Indian defence forces. LCH was proposed to meet IAF's requirement of a dedicated light helicopter for combat operations. 

HAL claims that the LCH is designed to carry out dedicated combat roles such as Air Defence, anti-tank, scout and support combat search/rescue missions. It incorporates a number of stealth features such as reduced visual, aural, radar and infra-red signatures and crashworthy landing gear, armour protection for better survivability. The helicopter is powered by two Shakti engines. There are plans to produce LCH in large numbers to meet the operational requirements. 

"TD-4 has been planned to facilitate accelerated weapon flight trials. TD-4 is getting ready and would be available for weapon trials soon," HAL's CMD, T Suvarna Raju told Economictimes.com. According to him, the TD-4 has been built as the weight optimised prototype of the LCH, which would be "most suited" for weapon trials.






_In pic: LCH during its hot & high altitude trials at Leh_


Further, weapon trials will continue in line with the specific requirement of customers. HAL is pursuing with customers for production orders and induction timelines will dependent on these orders. Suvarana Raju says that enquiries have been received from other countries during this year's Aero-India.


*So, are there any specific improvements that HAL is eyeing for the LCH? *

"LCH Design and Development program has progressed with incremental improvements in each prototype from TD-1 through TD-4. Based on the feedback from flight trials, various improvements have been made to fine tune handling qualities, speed and vibration...further improvements would be planned in coordination with the users," Suvarna Raju said. 





_In pic: LCH during its hot weather flight trials in Jodhpur_


*When will the LCH get Initial Operational Clearance? *

The combat helicopter has recently completed a series of all weather (hot and high altitude, sea level, cold weather and hot weather) trials. HAL hopes that the helicopter will get basic clearance by the end of this month. "With the hot and high altitude trials successfully completed at Leh in August 2015, the performance and handling characteristics of the basic helicopter have been established, and the clearance for the basic configuration of LCH is expected by September 2015," said HAL's CMD.





_In pic: LCH TD-3 during its maiden trials_


Extensive trials have been carried out on three prototypes at Bengaluru, sea level at Chennai in November 2013, cold weather at Leh during January-February 2015, hot weather at Jodhpur in July 2015 and hot and high altitude trials at a few days ago at Leh. LCH is the first attack helicopter to land in Forward Bases at Siachen.

LCH-TD-1 was first flown on March 29, 2010 and LCH-TD-2 was flown on June 28, 2011. The TD-3 made its successful maiden flight in 2014.






_In pic: An earlier prototype of the LCH_

HAL says that the performance and handling qualities of the helicopter have been established for basic configuration (with EO Pod, rocket launchers, turret gun and air-to-air missile launchers). In all HAL is expected to produce/manufacture 179 LCH for Indian Defence forces.


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## BATTLE FIELD

Hindustani78 said:


>



aw some gunship i only know nothing about it.
few q. please answer.

does it has stealth features?
and which cannon is that?how good is the cannon?
max range of that cannon?accuracy of the cannon?
some detail about its Armour?
details about its sensors?
and its nearest competitor? 
and is it durable?i once saw in video (fail army in youtube) an Apache crash in the ground but still fly as it nothing happened.
VS. the z10 how good it is?

i m too lazy to find out it myself.


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## GURU DUTT

BATTLE FIELD said:


> aw some gunship i only know nothing about it.
> few q. please answer.
> 
> does it has stealth features?
> and which cannon is that?how good is the cannon?
> max range of that cannon?accuracy of the cannon?
> some detail about its Armour?
> details about its sensors?
> and its nearest competitor?
> and is it durable?i once saw in video (fail army in youtube) an Apache crash in the ground but still fly as it nothing happened.
> VS. the z10 how good it is?
> 
> i m too lazy to find out it myself.


or are you going to sasural for the first time

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## BATTLE FIELD

GURU DUTT said:


> or are you going to sasural for the first time


at first i was not interested at it.looking at the prototype model.
but now i am loving it.

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## MilSpec

Ind4Ever said:


> Do need to relax our norms for induction ? Like china which could had inducted LCH by now and would had gone for mass production . While keeping the upgrades alive . Best way to gain number amd quality superiority . Our standards are cery high even compared to many western countries.


That is a slippery slope, Ungli doge to Haat kheech lenge. 
If the development was on schedule, with all milestones and gate reviews finishing strong, then there would be some confidence in the developmental agency to relax norms, but given the track record, doodh ka jala, chaaz be phoonk phoonk ke pita hai.



BATTLE FIELD said:


> aw some gunship i only know nothing about it.
> few q. please answer.
> 
> does it has stealth features?
> and which cannon is that?how good is the cannon?
> max range of that cannon?accuracy of the cannon?
> some detail about its Armour?
> details about its sensors?
> and its nearest competitor?
> and is it durable?i once saw in video (fail army in youtube) an Apache crash in the ground but still fly as it nothing happened.
> VS. the z10 how good it is?
> 
> i m too lazy to find out it myself.


aam khao, ped ginne mein kya rakha hai.

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## BATTLE FIELD

MilSpec said:


> aam khao, ped ginne mein kya rakha hai.


i know, i came late here to join the conversation.
and
that's mean i don't deserved to get my answer.
ok then.


i will not derail it.


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## MilSpec

BATTLE FIELD said:


> i know, i came late here to join the conversation.
> and
> that's mean i don't deserved to get my answer.
> ok then.
> 
> 
> i will not derail it.


hehe, nothing like that, just humor, go through the thread,and will not deny you the fun of researching a platform, the discovery of info on our own stuff is a quite a fun exercise.

lets do a small test, look at the changes in the canopy and construct your opinion on the reasons for the changes.

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## GURU DUTT

MilSpec said:


> That is a slippery slope, Ungli doge to Haat kheech lenge.
> If the development was on schedule, with all milestones and gate reviews finishing strong, then there would be some confidence in the developmental agency to relax norms, but given the track record, doodh ka jala, chaaz be phoonk phoonk ke pita hai.
> 
> 
> aam khao, ped ginne mein kya rakha hai.


but sir what i gont get it why despite so much use of composites and other tech almost all indian wepons are a bit too heavy and lesser in range and payload capacity 

chinese by any source have now made at least 4 types of attack hellies and now are testing 5th gen type and have that apache like mast mounted longbow type radar .... its realli frustating too see owr institutions going at snails pace


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## MilSpec

GURU DUTT said:


> but sir what i gont get it why despite so much use of composites and other tech almost all indian wepons are a bit too heavy and lesser in range and payload capacity
> 
> chinese by any source have now made at least 4 types of attack hellies and now are testing 5th gen type and have that apache like mast mounted longbow type radar .... its realli frustating too see owr institutions going at snails pace



There is no point in comparing chinese subsytems or any other...
Indian development in general is lack lustre, comparing it to china or any other country is pointless. There are a 100's of reasons for lack of developmental skills, but it will start happening in few years.

Mast mounted radar/fire control, I am not sure how important the requirement is for IA....
(please dont refer to me as sir)

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## GURU DUTT

MilSpec said:


> There is no point in comparing chinese subsytems or any other...
> Indian development in general is lack lustre, comparing it to china or any other country is pointless. There are a 100's of reasons for lack of developmental skills, but it will start happening in few years.
> 
> Mast mounted radar/fire control, I am not sure how important the requirement is for IA....
> (please dont refer to me as sir)


see its (mast mounter fire control radar) is the next new must have tech for any attach chopper as it makes your smart rockets (like latest version of US hydra) a leathel ATGM with 1/10 the cost and is much lighter aswell compared to hellfire or helina we need it more than chinese or USA for such high altitude warfare where even MBTs are thinli aroured than regular MBTs 

just look at the ammount of wepons carried by a viper helli and a LCH point is we need LCH very fast and in good numbers but looking at the pace of it its frustating to say the least


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## MilSpec

GURU DUTT said:


> see its (mast mounter fire control radar) is the next new must have tech for any attach chopper as it makes your smart rockets (like latest version of US hydra) a leathel ATGM with 1/10 the cost and is much lighter aswell compared to hellfire or helina we need it more than chinese or USA for such high altitude warfare where even MBTs are thinli aroured than regular MBTs
> 
> just look at the ammount of wepons carried by a viper helli and a LCH point is we need LCH very fast and in good numbers but looking at the pace of it its frustating to say the least


Instead, imo, LCH are primarily to be deployed with the 7 out of the 21 mechanized battalions that forms the Brigade of guards, for recce, and destruction of enemy armor. 
Second applications are going to be combat patrol for transport helicopters in to forward battle groups.

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## GURU DUTT

MilSpec said:


> Instead, imo, LCH are primarily to be deployed with the 7 out of the 21 mechanized battalions that forms the Brigade of guards, for recce, and destruction of enemy armor.
> Second applications are going to be combat patrol for* transport helicopters in to forward battle groups*.


what does that suppose to mean ?


----------



## #hydra#

GURU DUTT said:


> see its (mast mounter fire control radar) is the next new must have tech for any attach chopper as it makes your smart rockets (like latest version of US hydra) a leathel ATGM with 1/10 the cost and is much lighter aswell compared to hellfire or helina we need it more than chinese or USA for such high altitude warfare where even MBTs are thinli aroured than regular MBTs
> 
> just look at the ammount of wepons carried by a viper helli and a LCH point is we need LCH very fast and in good numbers but looking at the pace of it its frustating to say the least


Mast mounted radar, I think LCH is so small to carry such system. It will add extra weigt to lch & destroy the very purpose of LCH ie high altitude operations in Himalayan areas,hope DRDO will go to drawing board for new powerful heavy class helicopter with radar.


----------



## GURU DUTT

#hydra# said:


> Mast mounted radar, I think LCH is so small to carry such system. It will add extra weigt to lch & destroy the very purpose of LCH ie high altitude operations in Himalayan areas,hope DRDO will go to drawing board for new powerful heavy class helicopter with radar.


what is the weight of a mast mounted radar i guess the whole kit is not heavier than 20KG but it can transform LCH into a very deadli yet cheap anty tank air asset instead of carrying 8 heavy fire and forget helinas it can carry four(with 8 rockets each= 4X8=32) pods of smart radar guided 70mm rockets with identical range ... think about it

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## Ind4Ever

MilSpec said:


> That is a slippery slope, Ungli doge to Haat kheech lenge.
> If the development was on schedule, with all milestones and gate reviews finishing strong, then there would be some confidence in the developmental agency to relax norms, but given the track record, doodh ka jala, chaaz be phoonk phoonk ke pita hai.
> 
> 
> aam khao, ped ginne mein kya rakha hai.



But bhai there is always more time we need to upgrade. Why China's projects are successful? It's the reason . Of course it's a cold teeth but not a foul one . If China had lch or tejas by now with same configuration will be exported first. There are many countries who are ready to go for it isn't it. So by doing so we will have more than enough actual operational database to improve . Only thing is now you have money and continues production line what I have said is the story of JF17.



MilSpec said:


> That is a slippery slope, Ungli doge to Haat kheech lenge.
> If the development was on schedule, with all milestones and gate reviews finishing strong, then there would be some confidence in the developmental agency to relax norms, but given the track record, doodh ka jala, chaaz be phoonk phoonk ke pita hai.
> 
> 
> aam khao, ped ginne mein kya rakha hai.



But bhai there is always more time we need to upgrade. Why China's projects are successful? It's the reason . Of course it's a cold teeth but not a foul one . If China had lch or tejas by now with same configuration will be exported first. There are many countries who are ready to go for it isn't it.


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## MilSpec

GURU DUTT said:


> what does that suppose to mean ?

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## Water Car Engineer

*What is the update on LCH developments?*
When it comes to the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), we have certainly been able to translate all the learnings that we had previously in testing the Dhruv. In fact, you can say the LCH is a quantum jump over the Dhruv in every way. The LCH is extremely manoeuvrable at the same time it is rock steady, yes these are conflicting but the LCH does both these things very well. It is a very steady weapons platform, an attribute for its dedicated attack role and fills in an important gap for intercepting and engaging Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV). Fighter aircraft are too fast for intercepting UAVs while the helicopters that we have are not fast enough, the LCH exactly fills this slot with its speed and mix of guns and missiles.

We are very pleased with its performance and are as good as frozen on the design for the airframe at this point. We are waiting for certain armaments to arrive in October, following which firing trials will be held as the integration work for these weapons has already been completed. The LCH can carry a full load of weapons till 14,000 feet which is unmatched anywhere in the world. Essentially, the LCH can fly at heights of 4.5 km with a full weapons load. The weapons fit on the LCH today is as defined by the user, and at any time if the services require a new type of weapon, this integration and testing can be completed very quickly. 

The speed of LCH is 280 kmph and Dhruv is around 240 kmph. Because of its sleek design, you can maintain the speed and climb at faster rate. Dhruv takes 6.5 minutes to climb to 20,000 feet. In the summer at Leh, there is the Khardungla Pass which is at 20,000 feet. When you take off from Leh, all the helicopters whether they are Cheetah, Mi-8/Mi-17, they start orbiting over the town of Leh to gain height and once they have reached the necessary altitude only then do they cross the pass. In Dhruv and LCH, you just have to take-off and turn, the helicopter rockets upwards then you have to level out. Rudra has a top speed of 210 kmph, the LCH is able to achieve 280 kmph with all the external stores. In the final production version of the LCH, the glass cockpit will be from HAL and this has been developed in partnership with MCSRDC. As a result, it we will be able to integrate any new system onto the LCH, in a much faster manner. If the glass cockpit had been developed by a foreign vendor, then we would have needed to co-ordinate with that vendor for any weapons addition which would have been not only time consuming but also more expensive to make these changes. 

*What is the status of Flight Testing of Dhruv?*
We are continuously testing the Dhruv and keep improving the platform. If you look at the variants from Mk1 to Mk IV there have been constant improvements in the basic helicopter. For eg. from Mk II to Mk III there was a huge jump, with regards to vibration reduction and a whole lot of things. Today, serviceability of the Dhruv Mk III is substantially improved over earlier versions and Mk IV is even better. We have improved aspects like the gearbox design and made a number of substantial changes. We will, of course, not stop improving the Dhruv and whenever we are made aware of issues, we look to resolve them as soon as possible. After the Dhruv entered service, we found pilots were reporting that the controls were very light on Mk I and Mk II. So, we actually made the controls heavier keeping safety in mind. We have also had to retrain pilots coming to Dhruv from older platforms to refrain from jumping on to the controls the moment they enter bad weather. In Dhruv they have to let the autopilot do its job and you should just monitor and this has been reinforced at HATSOFF.

*Tell us about the Glass Cockpit.*
Initially, we had IAI of Israel, then we decided to go with MCSRDC. In this interaction with IAI, we reached a certain level, then with MCSRDC we reached a different level. There has been a tremendous amount of work and people are very busy. We are trying to achieve commonality of displays, someone who has flown the Mk IV will not have any problem understanding the cockpit in the LCH. Our requirements keep evolving every five years and every five years new changes are required. To incorporate a change of component or weapon system on an imported platform – you have to go back to the manufacturer and this takes time and money. Dhruv has had four variants in 10 years and at any point of time you can have the latest avionics, sensors and weapons. 


Wg Cdr (retd) Unni Pillai, Chief Test Pilot (Rotary Wing) HAL

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## Hindustani78

HAL's new Light Combat Helicopter during a 2013 day-dusk-night fire power exercise by the Indian Air Force at Pokran. Photo: V.V. Krishnan

Updated: November 6, 2015 13:43 IST
HAL's Light Combat Helicopter set to achieve final clearance in November - The Hindu

* The 5.8 tonne multirole attack chopper is the only attack helicopter in the world that can operate at heights of 12,000 feet.*
The indigenously designed and built Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is all set to achieve final clearance anytime this month. Following that, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will start serial production of the attack choppers. The 5.8 tonne multirole attack chopper is intended to play a major role in providing close air support to ground forces and is the only attack helicopter in the world that can operate at heights of 12,000 feet.

“Having completed all performance trails, final clearance is expected anytime soon from the Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC) in Bangalore. After that we will integrate weapons and finalise configuration as per the requirements of the end users — the Army and Air Force,” a senior HAL official told _The Hindu_.

HAL already has a firm order for 65 from the Air Force and 114 from the Army. This number is expected to go up given the army’s plan to have attack helicopters embedded in all formations for close air support.

HAL officials explained that unlike fixed wing aircraft which need Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC), helicopters usually get a final clearance. The government had earlier informed Parliament that production plans for LCH have been made from 2017-18.

*Light Utility Helicopter*

HAL is scheduled to conduct the maiden flight of the under development Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) in December coinciding with the 75 year celebrations of the company.

“Efforts are on to have the first flight in December,” one defence official said. The 3.1 tonne single engine helicopter is powered by the Shakti engine which powers the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) as well as the LCH and is intended to replace the ageing Cheetahs and Chetaks with the three services.

As per plan, HAL intends to build four prototypes by 2017 and start production by 2018. The Army and Air Force together have committed to purchase 187 LUHs.


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## fockewulf190

Heard that 4th LCH started flight testing. But no news anywhere.


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## Water Car Engineer

LCH TD3 and Rudra recent flight display

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## Water Car Engineer

HAL LCH TD3






Rudra






Naval Dhruv, with EW system, optic pod

* Silver Jubilee in Bangalore





*

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## Water Car Engineer

*HAL LCH TD1 and Rudra










Rudra*

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## Srinivas

Water Car Engineer said:


> *HAL LCH TD1 and Rudra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rudra*




LCA, Rudra are being seen more these days doing maneuvers near HAL Bangalore.


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## egodoc222

When will Hal rudra enter service?


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## Dandpatta

Those Rudras look RUDE !!! hehehe... 
(breathe easy guys, that's what attack helos are meant to look like  )


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## Water Car Engineer

egodoc222 said:


> When will Hal rudra enter service?




It is in service.


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## egodoc222

Water Car Engineer said:


> It is in service.


Are they!! Wow....how many?
I've never seen them in a any army exercises!!
Or I missed something?


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## Water Car Engineer

egodoc222 said:


> Are they!! Wow....how many?
> I've never seen them in a any army exercises!!
> Or I missed something?



We've been seeing some of IA's Rudras about -












IA-2101










IA-2102





IA-2105










IA-2107




IA-2101 Seen
IA-2102 Seen
IA-2103 Unseen
IA-2104 Unseen
IA-2105 Seen
IA-2106 Unseen
IA-2107 Seen
.
.
.
.

Indian Army Aviation Rudras.

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## W@rwolf

Any info on this particular version? The serial number *ZD-4165 *indicates that it is an IAF chopper (also the roundel underneath) But the helo seems to be integrated with a FLIR turret and the IDAS self-defense suite from SAAB like the Rudras! Also note a box-like fitting behind the body (under the rear door placement)

Highly unusual..






Here's ZD-4164 identical to the above except for the FLIR turret and the winch. Were these two prototypes?

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## Ankit Kumar

Water Car Engineer said:


> We've been seeing some of IA's Rudras about -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2101
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2102
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2105
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2107
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2101 Seen
> IA-2102 Seen
> IA-2103 Unseen
> IA-2104 Unseen
> IA-2105 Seen
> IA-2106 Unseen
> IA-2107 Seen
> .
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Indian Army Aviation Rudras.



Hi
Greeting. 
Sir a few questions. 
1. What is the production rate of WSI? And how many are presently flying?
2. What is the status of TD4 and LUH Prototype ?
3. Can a WSI take a direct 12.7 Mm hit ?
Thanks.


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## Water Car Engineer

Ankit Kumar said:


> Hi
> Greeting.
> Sir a few questions.
> 1. What is the production rate of WSI? And how many are presently flying?
> 2. What is the status of TD4 and LUH Prototype ?
> 3. Can a WSI take a direct 12.7 Mm hit ?
> Thanks.




1. I dont know

2. T4 was supposed to fly a year ago. LUH was supposed to fly December. Cant say what's going on.

3. Only parts up armored - DRDO developed a heli composite armor given to critical parts of the heli. Recently certified - 






DRDO Helicopter Composite armor

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## fockewulf190

Heard td4 already flying. But there are no photographic evidences.

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## Aramagedon

@Water Car Engineer

Just amazing ...

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## surya kiran

W@rwolf said:


> Any info on this particular version? The serial number *ZD-4165 *indicates that it is an IAF chopper (also the roundel underneath) But the helo seems to be integrated with a FLIR turret and the IDAS self-defense suite from SAAB like the Rudras! Also note a box-like fitting behind the body (under the rear door placement)
> 
> Highly unusual.



That looks like something being tested for the IN, not the IAF. That box looks like a pontoon. @Capt.Popeye can confirm this. Version being developed for the IN?

But then, if it is a pontoon, why is the FLIR below water level? Anybody?



Water Car Engineer said:


> IA-2102


That's my snap  By the way, they no longer allow anybody to the second floor of the museum. Tried couple of times 

Also, are you shaitan?

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## W@rwolf

surya kiran said:


> That looks like something being tested for the IN, not the IAF. That box looks like a pontoon. @Capt.Popeye can confirm this. Version being developed for the IN?
> 
> But then, if it is a pontoon, why is the FLIR below water level? Anybody?
> 
> 
> That's my snap  By the way, they no longer allow anybody to the second floor of the museum. Tried couple of times
> 
> Also, are you shaitan?



AFAIK, ZD registration is for IAF choppers. Maybe its a test bed intended for testing subsystems (you can see it has an IDAS, FLIR, winch, counter measure dispensers, and the 'pontoon') making it the most equipped ALH in the fleet 
It could also be an airframe intended for displays (yet to see it anywhere though)


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## Water Car Engineer

surya kiran said:


> That looks like something being tested for the IN, not the IAF. That box looks like a pontoon. @Capt.Popeye can confirm this. Version being developed for the IN?
> 
> But then, if it is a pontoon, why is the FLIR below water level? Anybody?
> 
> 
> That's my snap  By the way, they no longer allow anybody to the second floor of the museum. Tried couple of times
> 
> Also, are you shaitan?




I just figured it's the naval Dhruvs because of the retractable landing gear. I could be wrong. I am shaitan.

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## Capt.Popeye

surya kiran said:


> That looks like something being tested for the IN, not the IAF. That box looks like a pontoon. @Capt.Popeye can confirm this. Version being developed for the IN?
> 
> But then, if it is a pontoon, why is the FLIR below water level? Anybody?



No idea about this prototype. 
The FLIR on a Navalised version will not be below the hull/fuselage. And the IN has been looking for Folding Rotors and inflatable flotation gear in the wheel sponsons; not any pontoon-equipped version. The flotation gear is intended just to extend the flotation time in case of ditching on water, not to render it amphibious.



Water Car Engineer said:


> I just figured it's the naval Dhruvs because of the retractable landing gear. I could be wrong. I am shaitan.



All Navalised Dhruvs, i.e. configured for ship-borne ops will have wheeled landing gear, not skids.

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## Abingdonboy

W@rwolf said:


> Any info on this particular version? The serial number *ZD-4165 *indicates that it is an IAF chopper (also the roundel underneath) But the helo seems to be integrated with a FLIR turret and the IDAS self-defense suite from SAAB like the Rudras! Also note a box-like fitting behind the body (under the rear door placement)
> 
> Highly unusual..
> 
> View attachment 285836
> 
> 
> Here's ZD-4164 identical to the above except for the FLIR turret and the winch. Were these two prototypes?
> 
> View attachment 285842


Not unusual, the ALH MK.3 has a full self defence suite as standard with an optional FLIR:

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## Water Car Engineer

Prototypes in the hanger






HAL's dedicated helicopter plant

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## W@rwolf

Do i see TD-4 in the background?? Any idea when the picture was taken? 
AFAIK the TD-4 is undergoing ground tests or atleast has finished final checks.

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## Water Car Engineer

W@rwolf said:


> Do i see TD-4 in the background?? Any idea when the picture was taken?
> AFAIK the TD-4 is undergoing ground tests or atleast has finished final checks.
> 
> View attachment 286547




I dont think that's TD4, but TD4+. By now TD4 should be flight worthy. Never the less, good find!!


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## Sliver

GURU DUTT said:


> see its (mast mounter fire control radar) is the next new must have tech for any attach chopper as it makes your smart rockets (like latest version of US hydra) a leathel ATGM with 1/10 the cost and is much lighter aswell compared to hellfire or helina we need it more than chinese or USA for such high altitude warfare where even MBTs are thinli aroured than regular MBTs
> 
> just look at the ammount of wepons carried by a viper helli and a LCH point is we need LCH very fast and in good numbers but looking at the pace of it its frustating to say the least





#hydra# said:


> Mast mounted radar, I think LCH is so small to carry such system. It will add extra weigt to lch & destroy the very purpose of LCH ie high altitude operations in Himalayan areas,hope DRDO will go to drawing board for new powerful heavy class helicopter with radar.





GURU DUTT said:


> what is the weight of a mast mounted radar i guess the whole kit is not heavier than 20KG but it can transform LCH into a very deadli yet cheap anty tank air asset instead of carrying 8 heavy fire and forget helinas it can carry four(with 8 rockets each= 4X8=32) pods of smart radar guided 70mm rockets with identical range ... think about it



from the LRDE - India

Super Vision-2000, an airborne 3D naval surveillance radar, meant for helicopters and light transport aircraft. The SV-2000 is a lightweight, yet high performance, slotted array radar operating in the X Band. It can detect sea-surface targets such as a periscope or a vessel, against heavy clutter, and can also be used for navigation, weather mapping and beacon detection. The radar can detect a large vessel at over 100 nautical miles (370 km). It is currently under modification to be fitted to the Advanced Light Helicopter, and the Navy's Do-228's. Variants can be fitted to the Navy's Ka-25's as well.[10] The radar has been inducted by the Indian Navy and a more advanced variant of the Super Vision, known as the XV-2004 is now in production. The XV-2004 is also operational, and features an ISAR, SAR Capability.

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## Water Car Engineer

Sliver said:


> from the LRDE - India
> 
> Super Vision-2000, an airborne 3D naval surveillance radar, meant for helicopters and light transport aircraft. The SV-2000 is a lightweight, yet high performance, slotted array radar operating in the X Band. It can detect sea-surface targets such as a periscope or a vessel, against heavy clutter, and can also be used for navigation, weather mapping and beacon detection. The radar can detect a large vessel at over 100 nautical miles (370 km). It is currently under modification to be fitted to the Advanced Light Helicopter, and the Navy's Do-228's. Variants can be fitted to the Navy's Ka-25's as well.[10] The radar has been inducted by the Indian Navy and a more advanced variant of the Super Vision, known as the XV-2004 is now in production. The XV-2004 is also operational, and features an ISAR, SAR Capability.




Thanks, didnt know about this radar -







2000






2004

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## #hydra#

Sliver said:


> from the LRDE - India
> 
> Super Vision-2000, an airborne 3D naval surveillance radar, meant for helicopters and light transport aircraft. The SV-2000 is a lightweight, yet high performance, slotted array radar operating in the X Band. It can detect sea-surface targets such as a periscope or a vessel, against heavy clutter, and can also be used for navigation, weather mapping and beacon detection. The radar can detect a large vessel at over 100 nautical miles (370 km). It is currently under modification to be fitted to the Advanced Light Helicopter, and the Navy's Do-228's. Variants can be fitted to the Navy's Ka-25's as well.[10] The radar has been inducted by the Indian Navy and a more advanced variant of the Super Vision, known as the XV-2004 is now in production. The XV-2004 is also operational, and features an ISAR, SAR Capability.


But its a search radar,most probably underbelly mounting type. Apaches having millimetric wave firecontrol radar. I still believing that lch with its current power rating is not capable of carrying a fire control radar.


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## Abingdonboy

Rudras during Army day demo 2016:








ALH Mk.3:


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## Abingdonboy



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## Water Car Engineer




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## Dungeness

Water Car Engineer said:


>



wow, this is a 8 year old thread. Where is this LCH program standing now?


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## Water Car Engineer

Dungeness said:


> wow, this is a 8 year old thread. Where is this LCH program standing now?




One more prototype will be out and then go to weapon trials.


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## Dungeness

Water Car Engineer said:


> One more prototype will be out and then go to weapon trials.



Weapon trails usually take a lot of time. I guess it will be a while before we can see them entering service in quantity. Any official explanation about the delay? TD here means prototype or technical demonstrator?


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## Water Car Engineer

Dungeness said:


> Weapon trails usually take a lot of time. I guess it will be a while before we can see them entering service in quantity. Any official explanation about the delay?




It dont think the weapon trials for the Rudra, which is now inducted, took that long.

The last time there was a delay like this on a new prototype, we saw several changes to the frame, etc. It could be that, it's EW system isnt installed to the frame yet. We could be seeing that, what I think is for sure is that, TD4 is flight worthy, and probably already flying.






TD1














TD3

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## kaykay

Dungeness said:


> Weapon trails usually take a lot of time. I guess it will be a while before we can see them entering service in quantity. Any official explanation about the delay? TD here means prototype or technical demonstrator?


TD means technology demonstrator. Weapon trials will start from June-July this year and will take a good amount of time ( 12-18 months). LCH will enter service only in last 2017 or early-mid 2018. Anyway it has completed other trials like hot weather, cold and high altitude. Also landed and takeoff from almost 16000 feet Siachen base during high altitude trials.


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## Dungeness

Water Car Engineer said:


> It dont think the weapon trials for the Rudra, which is now inducted, took that long.
> 
> The last time there was a delay like this on a new prototype, we saw several changes to the frame, etc. It could be that, it's EW system isnt installed to the frame yet. We could be seeing that, what I think is for sure is that, TD4 is flight worthy, and probably already flying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD3




TD-3 looks very sharp! 



kaykay said:


> *TD means technology demonstrator*. Weapon trials will start from June-July this year and will take a good amount of time ( 12-18 months). LCH will enter service only in last 2017 or early-mid 2018. Anyway it has completed other trials like hot weather, cold and high altitude. Also landed and takeoff from almost 16000 feet Siachen base during high altitude trials.



Other posts in this thread have referred TD as prototype. If TD really means technology demonstrator, then you will have to go through prototypes stage? Has user trail started?

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## Water Car Engineer

Dungeness said:


> Other posts in this thread have referred TD as prototype. If TD really means technology demonstrator, then you will have to go through prototypes stage? Has user trail started?




Same thing, it's doing trials all over India. LEH, S. India, Rajasthan, etc. It's frame has changed in some ways by the team due to changes they felt was needed after these trials The last prototypes will more or less the production version. It goes to production after successful weapon trials.

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## kaykay

Dungeness said:


> TD-3 looks very sharp!
> 
> 
> 
> Other posts in this thread have referred TD as prototype. If TD really means technology demonstrator, then you will have to go through prototypes stage? Has user trail started?


Well as far as I know, only TD-1 was referred as 'Technology Demonstrator and rest are referred as 'Prototypes' but still their marking is same as TD-2,3 etc. TD-4 will be last one and then it will enter into production. Anyway from TD-1 to TD-3, There have been lots and lots of improvements and TD-4 is expected to be more lighter which will go to production.
And yes many trials have been successfully completed as so far there have been no issues in any one of them.
India's light combat helicopter completes crucial trials | Business Standard Mobile Website

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## Water Car Engineer

kaykay said:


> Well as far as I know, only TD-1 was referred as 'Technology Demonstrator and rest are referred as 'Prototypes' but still their marking is same as TD-2,3 etc. TD-4 will be last one and then it will enter into production. Anyway from TD-1 to TD-3, There have been lots and lots of improvements and TD-4 is expected to be more lighter which will go to production.
> And yes many trials have been successfully completed as so far there have been no issues in any one of them.
> India's light combat helicopter completes crucial trials | Business Standard Mobile Website




TD4 was supposed to be the last prototype, but now there will be a TD5. This is off of HAL own personal income.

This is probably TD5 on the jig assembly.

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## Ankit Kumar

Water Car Engineer said:


> TD4 was supposed to be the last prototype, but now there will be a TD5. This is off of HAL own personal income.
> 
> This is probably TD5 on the jig assembly.



Maybe they are just making a life size model of LCH? Like that of Tejas? 

But why TD5? Did Army or Airforce suggested some improvements?


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## Dungeness

kaykay said:


> Well as far as I know, only TD-1 was referred as 'Technology Demonstrator and rest are referred as 'Prototypes' but still their marking is same as TD-2,3 etc. TD-4 will be last one and then it will enter into production. Anyway from TD-1 to TD-3, There have been lots and lots of improvements and TD-4 is expected to be more lighter which will go to production.
> And yes many trials have been successfully completed as so far there have been no issues in any one of them.
> India's light combat helicopter completes crucial trials | Business Standard Mobile Website



User trail means "test drive" for the end users, so the manufacturer can collect feedback. Not sure how is done in India. Chinese weapons would be in PLA for "USER TRAIL" for quite some time, before the manufacturer frozen the final design.


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## Water Car Engineer

Ankit Kumar said:


> Maybe they are just making a life size model of LCH? Like that of Tejas?
> 
> But why TD5? Did Army or Airforce suggested some improvements?




It was HAL own initiative to produce another TD, not the army or air force. I cant find the original source.

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## GURU DUTT

Water Car Engineer said:


> It was HAL own initiative to produce another TD, not the army or air force. I cant find the original source.


So In Short TD4 is basically an improoved LCH after both army and airforce suggested some minor changes and feed backs ?


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## SRP

Water Car Engineer said:


> It was HAL own initiative to produce another TD, not the army or air force. I cant find the original source.



TD 4 was HAL initiative I guess.

*HAL has also set aside Rs 126 crore for LCH TD-4, which is expected to fly soon.*

*Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: RotorPlus: HAL-funded LCH TD-3 undergoes first flight successfully*

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## Water Car Engineer

GURU DUTT said:


> So In Short TD4 is basically an improoved LCH after both army and airforce suggested some minor changes and feed backs ?




Feedback from the test pilots, and also feedback from data retrieved various instruments. In TD3 the door hatches were changed, a change mentioned by the test pilots. The cockpit windows were reduced. The weapon stubs were redesigned, landing gear and gun were given fairings, which Im guessing is to reduce drag. And the whole engine housing was elongated, which I am going to take an un-educated guess and say it might have something to do with suppressing it's IR signature, cant be so sure on that. And a cavity was cut to get more air to the engine. But these are some examples.















I am not sure how involved army and AF are in the developmental trials. The test pilots are from those branches though, I think.

But yes, the next batch should be the closest to the production model.

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## kaykay

Dungeness said:


> User trail means "test drive" for the end users, so the manufacturer can collect feedback. Not sure how is done in India. Chinese weapons would be in PLA for "USER TRAIL" for quite some time, before the manufacturer frozen the final design.


Not sure of that buddy but what I know is IAF and Army officials review every trials very closely and they were very impressed by its high altitude performances last year. Also so far they have raised no issues like in case of Tejas.

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## Abingdonboy

Dungeness said:


> User trail means "test drive" for the end users, so the manufacturer can collect feedback. Not sure how is done in India. Chinese weapons would be in PLA for "USER TRAIL" for quite some time, before the manufacturer frozen the final design.


The LCH is a collaborative effort with the IA and IAF involved in the design and testing process. DRDO and HAL being state owned enterprises means that the Govt has the ability to moniter the process at every stage. All HAL test pilots are ex-IA/IAF and the designers (HAL) are explicitly working to the specifications the IAF and IA (GSQRs), without the product meeting the user's requirements HAL won't be able to deliver the product nor consider their development a success. 

In short, the LCH is not being designed and tested in a vacum, it has all stakeholders in the loop.

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## ni8mare



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## Tuchha

ni8mare said:


>


Would anyone translate...curious to know what they are discussing... probably evil plans of Yinduuus

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## Water Car Engineer

ni8mare said:


>




From the pics they've shown, it gives me an idea they have a decent brief of it. Especially the part when they showed all three TDs a part. Find it hilarious a Chinese media is doing it better than any Indian one I can think of.

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## hacker J

sir can anyone tell me detailed difference between rudra and lch capabilities? because buth of them seem equally capable in terms or mutitions they will carry and sensors aboard ?


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## kaykay

hacker J said:


> sir can anyone tell me detailed difference between rudra and lch capabilities? because buth of them seem equally capable in terms or mutitions they will carry and sensors aboard ?


Well avionics and weapon package is more or less but same. While LCH is a pure gunship and thus have better agility, armour etc which Rudra may lack. But again Rudra can carry troops and thus better suited for situation like troop insertion and armed support to them( say in a COIN mission).

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## desimorty

> From the pics they've shown, it gives me an idea they have a decent brief of it. Especially the part when they showed all three TDs a part. Find it hilarious a Chinese media is doing it better than any Indian one I can think of.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/hal-lch-updates-and-discussions.343654/page-83#ixzz3yPfIfdaY


PLA has propaganda brigade.
You know how Indian media and politicians throw the word indigenous around. Well the PLA for their part will take a lic prod aircraft like Su-27 and start calling it a J something. Half of the new hardware the PLA is getting is former USSR stuff or technology bought from broke former USSR nations. CCP has a military embargo on them which is actually hitting their RnD budget. Which is huge. One has to wonder, how much money PLA has.
In India's favor. India need not compete Dollar for dollar, but instead rely on allies like Russia, France, EU,Israel and now America on consultation or just make in India.
If you note, the Oniks was not in full service until India financed the project. A lot of top secret Soviet arsenals and being financed by Indian money.
The difficulty is with such a relationship, is that both parties don't want to step on each others toes. Hence why Russia is considered defacto partner or shareholder in almost all strategic level weapons.

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## #hydra#

What happened to td4,is it flying or what?


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## Ind4Ever

Latest LCH from HAL Raju :

Weapon integration going on for LCH!!! 

By September the systems integration will be completed he says Proved 

By March we will be flying LCH with weapons!!!

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## Defence News

*Source:- defenceupdate.in*
The HAL Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is a multirole combat helicopter being developed in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for use by the Indian Air Force and the Indian Army.

The LCH is a twin-engine helicopter of 5.8-ton class designed and developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to meet the requirements of Indian defence forces. LCH was proposed to meet IAF’s requirement of a dedicated light helicopter for combat operations.

HAL claims that the LCH is designed to carry out dedicated combat roles such as Air Defence, anti-tank, scout and support combat search/rescue missions. It incorporates a number of stealth features such as reduced visual, aural, radar and infra-red signatures and crashworthy landing gear, armour protection for better survivability. The helicopter is powered by two Shakti engines. There are plans to produce LCH in large numbers to meet the operational requirements.



The Kargil war gives us much lessons to the IAF to conduct not only Armed Combat air patrol, but mean time support the Friendly Troops who is fighting against the enemy in tough conditions. So IAF put an requirement of Combat Helicopters building in India, The HAL taken the decision to make the dream into reality by flying first LCH prototype by 2010, within three years of program gets sanctioned by the Government.
LCH will not only help us in war scenario in low altitudes regions like Thar, Rajasthan but also help us in defeating our enemy in Siachen glacier. In past we have to send our army in Siachen without any direct fire support from heavy weapons. All they had was what they could carry on their backs to fight enemy but deployment of LCH in this region will help our army to defeat our enemy in high altitude region. Last week, for the first time ever, an attack helicopter landed at a forward picquet in Siachen. The indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), designed and built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), performed several such landings as a part of its “hot and high” trials in Ladakh.



As per initial plans more than 200 combat helicopters procured 65% of them falls in the Army Aviation wing balance for Indian Air force, the first prototype flown in 2010 and performed 20 minutes of flight operations near HAL area. the next prototype unveiled in Aero india 2011, just a Year after first flight, the second Prototype with plenty of modifications and comes with weapons system like the 20mm Nexter cannon, where the first prototype is just the helicopter with attack helicopters characteristics,

The third Prototype flown end of 2014 with improved characteristics like modified defensive suites weapon fittings, control elements and decreased weight, during the early periods th TD 1 and TD 2 ( Technical demonstrator ) carried out lots of trails like low flying High Flying, sea level weapon firing and lots more, the fourth Prototype is expected to be flown before this year, where HAL is in final works to roles out it.

Compared to other Light combat Helicopter platforms like Chinese Z 10 and Euro copter Tiger , the LCH designed for Indian conditions, to conduct operations in High Altitudes like Leh and low altitudes like Thar, Rajastan also it can perform missions in Minus zero degree Ladakh’s to hot Thar conditions.
Meanwhile the LCH stand behind other counterparts, where LCH still in design and developments stages, as per reports if all the parameters achieved with in 2017, the LCH can out perform Chinese and Pakistani Z 10 and can challenge the European Tiger Helicopter,


The LCH didn’t perform night Trails, and guided weapon firing Trails, Now HAL testing the platform for better Aerodynamic characteristics and defensive suites like ECM and Infrared counter measure system,

LCH already been evaluated with the defensive system earlier, and being in tests with Target acquisition systems and Weapon control system, LCH comes with twin back by back seat configuration for better performance same like other modern combat helicopters, the Pilot can Handle the Helicopters movements and controls the primary cannon, where the weapons officer helps the pilot to navigate and help to choose the correct weapon system, communicating with the ground bases, controls nearby Unmanned aircrafts and more,

The LCH’s primary Target acquisition system is the FLIR ( Forward Looking Infrared ) pod, who can lock ground and air targets, analyses the threats and engage the proper weapon, also the laser designator and Range finder allows the Helicopter to classify the threat levels and portions and it’s moving speed. those are all synchronized with the Pilots Helmet, allows him to react faster.

The main fire arm of the LCH is the Nexter 20 mm cannon it can hold some 800 rounds of ammunition, with an effective range of 2500 feet, also it comes with four hard points two in each wing to carry unguided Rockets and guided Air to air or anti armour missiles, The LCH designed to carry set of two Mistral Air to air missiles for Air operations to shoot down enemy helicopters Turbo prop special mission Transports and low flying UAV’s, otherwise it can carry LAHAT Anti Tank or Helina Anti Tank missiles for Anti armour and ground operations, also the LCH can use combination of all the above missiles and Rocket pods.

As per recent reports two more prototypes will be build for testing and evaluation and HAL plans to achieve the FOC by 2020 and mass produce the Helicopters by 2021,
*Source:- defenceupdate.in
Content of post is taken from this website.Don't forget to visit this site *

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## fockewulf190

First flight of LCH TD4 successfully carried out on 1st December 2015. Performance of the 18 mins flight was found satisfactory.
Weight further reduced.
TD4 incorporates improvements from flight testing feedback from TD3.
TD3 and TD4 will be be extensively used for testing mission sensors, weapon systems and firing trials.
Wg Cdr Unni Pillai and Wg Cdr SP John carried out the flight.

Am not able to post the pic.
Info from Minsk square matters December 2015 january 2016 edition.


fockewulf190 said:


> First flight of LCH TD4 successfully carried out on 1st December 2015. Performance of the 18 mins flight was found satisfactory.
> Weight further reduced.
> TD4 incorporates improvements from flight testing feedback from TD3.
> TD3 and TD4 will be be extensively used for testing mission sensors, weapon systems and firing trials.
> Wg Cdr Unni Pillai and Wg Cdr SP John carried out the flight.

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## Abingdonboy

fockewulf190 said:


> First flight of LCH TD4 successfully carried out on 1st December 2015. Performance of the 18 mins flight was found satisfactory.
> Weight further reduced.
> TD4 incorporates improvements from flight testing feedback from TD3.
> TD3 and TD4 will be be extensively used for testing mission sensors, weapon systems and firing trials.
> Wg Cdr Unni Pillai and Wg Cdr SP John carried out the flight.
> 
> Am not able to post the pic.
> Info from Minsk square matters December 2015 january 2016 edition.


@Water Car Engineer @PARIKRAMA

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## Water Car Engineer

You can see TD3 on the lower, left.

The top could be TD4.






Has all frame changes first shown in TD3, has a new camo scheme. Like a trident design running though.






TD1 has a tiger

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## sathya

Water Car Engineer said:


> You can see TD3 on the lower, left.
> 
> The top could be TD4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has all frame changes first shown in TD3, has a new camo scheme. Like a trident design running though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD1 has a tiger




Canopy glass... Also different from TD1

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## Water Car Engineer

sathya said:


> Canopy glass... Also different from TD1




Right, that and the extended engine frame was carried over from TD3.

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## Foxbat Alok

Water Car Engineer said:


> You can see TD3 on the lower, left.
> 
> The top could be TD4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has all frame changes first shown in TD3, has a new camo scheme. Like a trident design running though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD1 has a tiger





Water Car Engineer said:


> You can see TD3 on the lower, left.
> 
> The top could be TD4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has all frame changes first shown in TD3, has a new camo scheme. Like a trident design running though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD1 has a tiger


Yupp sir TD4 during laid foundation of HAL new Assembly plant 
& according HAL TD4 already complete the maiden flight successfully

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## Hephaestus

HAL’s Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) which took off and landed at forward landing base in the Siachen Glacier, the world’s highest battlefield last year flew with decent payload at such high altitude (4.8km altitude ) said HAL’s chief T Suvarna Raju.

Raju confirmed that LCH which is first attack helicopter to land and take-off from forward landing base in Siachen with a payload of 400kg. and now has completed performance trials and is paving the way for finalisation of basic IOC Configuration and letter of completion has been handed over by CEMILCA in the presence of defence minister last Oct 2015.

Four LCH Prototypes helicopters currently flying have combined accumulated more than 600 test flights and depending on the customer requirements (Army, Airforce) integration of weapons systems will be taken up so that helicopter can be cleared for weapons trials said, Raju.

LCH performance trials have involved development testing at Bangalore and also under extreme environmental conditions such as cold weather trials at Leh and Hot weather trials at jodhpur and hot and high tests at Leh.

According to HAL, LCH is only attacked helicopter which can operate above 10000-12000 feet altitude with a considerable load of armaments and was first attack helicopter to land at Siachen.

lCH flew at Siachen with decent payload: HAL Chief

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## #hydra#

Hephaestus said:


> HAL’s Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) which took off and landed at forward landing base in the Siachen Glacier, the world’s highest battlefield last year flew with decent payload at such high altitude (4.8km altitude ) said HAL’s chief T Suvarna Raju.
> 
> Raju confirmed that LCH which is first attack helicopter to land and take-off from forward landing base in Siachen with a payload of 400kg. and now has completed performance trials and is paving the way for finalisation of basic IOC Configuration and letter of completion has been handed over by CEMILCA in the presence of defence minister last Oct 2015.
> 
> Four LCH Prototypes helicopters currently flying have combined accumulated more than 600 test flights and depending on the customer requirements (Army, Airforce) integration of weapons systems will be taken up so that helicopter can be cleared for weapons trials said, Raju.
> 
> LCH performance trials have involved development testing at Bangalore and also under extreme environmental conditions such as cold weather trials at Leh and Hot weather trials at jodhpur and hot and high tests at Leh.
> 
> According to HAL, LCH is only attacked helicopter which can operate above 10000-12000 feet altitude with a considerable load of armaments and was first attack helicopter to land at Siachen.
> 
> lCH flew at Siachen with decent payload: HAL Chief


400 kilos?sounds not too good and not bad .


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## Bheemsen

#hydra# said:


> 400 kilos?sounds not too good and not bad .


That's why word descent is used correctly isn't it ?

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## Abingdonboy

Hephaestus said:


> *Four* LCH Prototypes helicopters currently flying


@Water Car Engineer

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> @Water Car Engineer




Yep, pretty much confirmed. HAL kept it low-key.

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## ni8mare



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## Abingdonboy

ni8mare said:


>


Not a fan of this paint job, I would prefer the standard IAF grey or that digicam shown on TD-2 (although I doubt that will ever end up on operational birds).

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## Armani

#hydra# said:


> 400 kilos?sounds not too good and not bad .



At that altitude? It's *very* good. It'll carry more once the testing regimes are done.

++

@Abingdonboy They need to do something about the landing gear legs. Can't leave them that exposed...some prototypes previously showed them with some kind of shroud/cover. Need to bring that back. It'll be good for the eyes as well...as of now it seems the chopper is balancing on matchsticks.

As of the paint job...well, this is still HAL's idea. The earlier digicam was also HAL's decision. The chopper isn't inducted into service yet once IAF gets it, they may choose to repaint it as they please. The current urban camo-looking paint may actually work in the Himalayas which is LCH's preferred playground (saying it because we're most likely to find great use for it there).

That said, I'm actually contemplating what the Apache & Chinook could like in IAF colors! The grey on Apache would either look very good, or very bad.






But you have to give it to the Mils though...the Mi-17, Mi-26, Mi-35...all look darn good in IAF grey. Let's hope LCH and Apache can fit right in without looking feral.

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## Abingdonboy

Armani said:


> As of the paint job...well, this is still HAL's idea. The earlier digicam was also HAL's decision. The chopper isn't inducted into service yet once IAF gets it, they may choose to repaint it as they please. The current urban camo-looking paint may actually work in the Himalayas which is LCH's preferred playground (saying it because we're most likely to find great use for it there).


I'm almost certain the IAF will have them in their standard solid grey (as they did with the Mi-35s), it will be interesting to see what the IA puts on their LCHs but I suspect it will vary command to command for the AAC's LCH (as is the case with their ALHs as of now).



Armani said:


> That said, I'm actually contemplating what the Apache & Chinook could like in IAF colors! The grey on Apache would either look very good, or very bad.



I've been thinking this for a while I'm almost certain they will also be the standard IAF grey, it will take a while to get used to that given the standard colours these things sport with 99% of other users:

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## Armani

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm almost certain the IAF will have them in their standard solid grey (as they did with the Mi-35s), it will be interesting to see what the IA puts on their LCHs but I suspect it will vary command to command for the AAC's LCH (as is the case with their ALHs as of now).
> 
> 
> 
> I've been thinking this for a while I'm almost certain they will also be the standard IAF grey, it will take a while to get used to that given the standard colours these things sport with 99% of other users:



Chinook looks dashing in grey! But Apache....I don't know what to say. It seems as though the paint peeled off...or as if it's yet to be painted. You're right it's gonna take some time getting used to seeing Apaches like this. Guess the sooner I start the better.


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## Abingdonboy

Armani said:


> Chinook looks dashing in grey! But Apache....I don't know what to say. It seems as though the paint peeled off...or as if it's yet to be painted. You're right it's gonna take some time getting used to seeing Apaches like this. Guess the sooner I start the better.


I hope sometime soon the IAF adopts low-vis markings on their birds, I think the full colour roundals and tail flash stick out a bit too much:

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## Water Car Engineer

Old mock up






Old model

IAF colors

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## mkb95



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## mkb95

apology if already posted.

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## mkb95



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## Foxbat Alok

Lch td2 during aero India 2011

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## thesolar65

*HAL's indigenously built LCH fires rockets*

Bengaluru, March 14: 
After successful completion of basic performance flight testing and outstation trials for cold weather, hot weather and hot and high altitude testing in the year 2015, the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has achieved yet another milestone by satisfactory firing of Rockets (70 mm) from its prototype, TD-3 in weaponized configuration.

“The initial rocket firing trials have been carried out at Jaisalmer, establishing satisfactory integration of hardware and software, structural integrity and safe separation of rocket ammunition. Integration of weapons such as Rocket, Turret Gun (20 mm) and Air to Air Missile on LCH will further continue”, said T Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL.

“These trials give us confidence for carrying out certification firing trials planned during Apr-May 2016”, he added.

LCH will participate in IAF’s 'Iron Fist 2016’ exercise on March 18, 2016. The LCH TD-3 is integrated with Electo-Optical (EO) System, Solid State Digital Video Recording System (SSDVR) and 70mm Rocket system in conjunction with an updated Glass Cockpit software to cater for rocket firing.

HAL's indigenously built LCH fires rockets | Business Line

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## Armani

70mm rockets

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## Ankit Kumar

HAL LCH in action during Iron Fist. 
Exclusive image by Indian - Aerospace/defense NEWS.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @Armani 

Awesome pic.

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## Water Car Engineer

Ankit Kumar said:


> HAL LCH in action during Iron Fist.
> Exclusive image by Indian - Aerospace/defense NEWS.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @Armani
> 
> Awesome pic.





Nice...

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## Water Car Engineer

@IronFist

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## Water Car Engineer

HAL LCH At Iron Fist

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> HAL LCH At Iron Fist


The LCH is going to be a phenomenal success.

+ I like that the IAF demonstrated the hi-lo combo way the LCH will be operated with the Mi-35 and in the future the AH-64E. That's going to be quite a punch with two way data links and Longbow equipped Apaches.

@PARIKRAMA

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> The LCH is going to be a phenomenal success.
> 
> + I like that the IAF demonstrated the hi-lo combo way the LCH will be operated with the Mi-35 and in the future the AH-64E. That's going to be quite a punch with two way data links and Longbow equipped Apaches.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA



Actually this is where we may get to see some interesting options.. SIPRI says out of 22 Apaches 12 are longbow radar editions.. Now 12 longbows individually or in 6 pairs actually can help guide a fleet of individual LCH to missions in a manner which can showcase an awesome strategy.

Lets simply imagine a 14+ heli attack formation
2 AH 64E
2 AH 64 E Longbow
10+ LCH

The Longbows does all the scouting with sensors and battle management.. Long standoff guding everybody else going blind.
The 2 apaches acts as cover for Longbow
The LCH more or less goes for the mission kills based on Apache Longbow inputs

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Actually this is where we may get to see some interesting options.. SIPRI says out of 22 Apaches 12 are longbow radar editions.. Now 12 longbows individually or in 6 pairs actually can help guide a fleet of individual LCH to missions in a manner which can showcase an awesome strategy.
> 
> Lets simply imagine a 14+ heli attack formation
> 2 AH 64E
> 2 AH 64 E Longbow
> 10+ LCH
> 
> The Longbows does all the scouting with sensors and battle management.. Long standoff guding everybody else going blind.
> The 2 apaches acts as cover for Longbow
> The LCH more or less goes for the mission kills based on Apache Longbow inputs


A very nice analysis there and I agree fully, this is exactly how the US Army operates their Apaches (although they operate on a 1:3/1:4 Apache to Non-Apache ratio). There is still clearly scope for a large number of addtional Apache orders (beyond the 11 follow-on for the IAF and 39 the IA is looking at) given the total number of LCH that the IA and IAF have on order is about 180 units.

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## Water Car Engineer

*Has there been progress on the Light Combat Helicopter?*

As a platform, the LCH has passed all requirements. It is now a viable platform and depending on the weapons requirement by the Army, the Air Force or another country, we will integrate them.* Two countries have expressed keenness in the product and we would approach them shortly.* We have got clearance from the government to export the choppers a few months ago.

*What is the progress in setting up a new helicopter facility for engines?*

We are looking at a joint venture company to be formed withTurbomeca and are trying to locate a place to build a facility in Goa. This will be for work on the Shakti and 2B2 engines. We are looking to close this in not more than 60 days by choosing a place that suits us.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...varna-raju/articleshow/51834356.cms?prtpage=1

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Water Car Engineer said:


> *Has there been progress on the Light Combat Helicopter?*
> 
> As a platform, the LCH has passed all requirements. It is now a viable platform and depending on the weapons requirement by the Army, the Air Force or another country, we will integrate them.* Two countries have expressed keenness in the product and we would approach them shortly.* We have got clearance from the government to export the choppers a few months ago.
> 
> *What is the progress in setting up a new helicopter facility for engines?*
> 
> We are looking at a joint venture company to be formed wit and are trying to locate a place to build a facility in Goa. This will be for work on the Shakti and 2B2 engines. We are looking to close this in not more than 60 days by choosing a place that suits us.



Let me guess, Vietnam and Oman?


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## #hydra#

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Let me guess, Vietnam and Oman?


Oman,chances are less....i think lch do have some israeli components.


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## Armani

#hydra# said:


> Oman,chances are less....i think lch do have some israeli components.



Possibly Sri Lanka and some country from ASEAN.


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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> *Has there been progress on the Light Combat Helicopter?*
> 
> As a platform, the LCH has passed all requirements. It is now a viable platform and depending on the weapons requirement by the Army, the Air Force or another country, we will integrate them.* Two countries have expressed keenness in the product and we would approach them shortly.* We have got clearance from the government to export the choppers a few months ago.
> 
> *What is the progress in setting up a new helicopter facility for engines?*
> 
> We are looking at a joint venture company to be formed withTurbomeca and are trying to locate a place to build a facility in Goa. This will be for work on the Shakti and 2B2 engines. We are looking to close this in not more than 60 days by choosing a place that suits us.
> 
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...varna-raju/articleshow/51834356.cms?prtpage=1


Exports should be considered irrelevent at this stage, focus on getting the LCH into the Indian armed forces first. But I do understand the compulsion to secure export orders from a "glamour" point of view.

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## zebra7

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Horus Don't you think, LCA Naval should have separate Sticky thread.

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## Guynextdoor2

Abingdonboy said:


> Exports should be considered irrelevent at this stage, focus on getting the LCH into the Indian armed forces first. But I do understand the compulsion to secure export orders from a "glamour" point of view.



I think exports should e a very high priority. On the imports front we're burning cash left, right and centre. Exports will help us cushion that a big.


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## Blue Marlin

zebra7 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Horus Don't you think, LCA Naval should have separate Sticky thread.


no need the naval version version is just a variant. or you can make a thread then if its good enough then ask for it to be sticky. that's what i did with the typhoon thread.

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## Abingdonboy

Guynextdoor2 said:


> I think exports should e a very high priority. On the imports front we're burning cash left, right and centre. Exports will help us cushion that a big.


The priority should be Indian service IMO, exports can come later, it's not like India is facing any serious financial constraints or an economic crisis.



zebra7 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Horus Don't you think, LCA Naval should have separate Sticky thread.


I don't see the issue with keeping it in the LCA thread bro.


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## ni8mare



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## Water Car Engineer

ni8mare said:


>




Great pic, it makes it even better that it's in LEH. High altitude killer.







Firing some rockets.

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## knight11



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## #hydra#

Who i


knight11 said:


>


who is this


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## lover

#hydra# said:


> Who i
> 
> who is this


its a very old photo


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## mkb95



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## mkb95

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/728536376459837440

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## nik141993

mkb95 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/728536376459837440


rudra?


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## mkb95

nik141993 said:


> rudra?


yes.

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## Raje amar

ALH is Dhruva not Rudra.
Weponised version of Dhruva is Rudra.

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## proud_indian



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## Water Car Engineer

proud_indian said:


>



Nice, a lot of footage of TD4.

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## ni8mare

*TD-4*

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## knight11

Total LCH order for IAF and IA could be around 170. HAL need to now focus on the LUH and NLUH. There is huge demand of the utility hellicopter for both civilian and military purpose.

Strangely, why IA is not giving order for Rudra Gunship.


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## Foxbat Alok

knight11 said:


> Total LCH order for IAF and IA could be around 170. HAL need to now focus on the LUH and NLUH. There is huge demand of the utility hellicopter for both civilian and military purpose.
> 
> Strangely, why IA is not giving order for Rudra Gunship.


Hal rudra already in service bro 
20+ in service

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## Abingdonboy

knight11 said:


> Total LCH order for IAF and IA could be around 170


Easily >200.



knight11 said:


> HAL need to now focus on the LUH and NLUH


LUH yes, the IN will go for a foreign NLUH, they never joined the LUH project.



knight11 said:


> Strangely, why IA is not giving order for Rudra Gunship.


70+ Rudras on order for the IA with over 20 inducted thus far.

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## Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA @knight11 @ni8mare @hellfire @Koovie @danish_vij @SR-91 @Koovie @Echo_419 @Levina @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @ito @Star Wars @ranjeet @arp2041 @Bombaywalla @Foxbat Alok @The Huskar @The_Sidewinder @proud_indian @Nilgiri @Roybot @kbd-raaf @JanjaWeed @hinduguy @Parul@Marxist @Sam. @Samudra Manthan @MKC @Armani @jaunty @lover @mkb95 @noksss @Sky lord @skyisthelimit @Dash @Archie @hembo @Kal Muah @AugenBlick @cloud_9 @Iggy @DesiGuy1403 @jbgt90 @Cherokee @T-72M1 @spartan117 


Rudra for the IAF:



























I had no idea the IAF had placed orders for the Rudra (I thought only the IA had had to date), a very pleasant surprise.



HAL need to focus on greatly expanding their productive capacity now; the ALH, Rudra and LCH are all in great demand.


+ complete kudos to HAL, creating a world class product (ALH) right out of the gates, continuously developing it (MK.1, Mk.2, Mk.3, Rudra etc etc) and then building on that experience to create the LCH which by all accounts will be a world class product in its own right.

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## egodoc222

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @knight11 @ni8mare @hellfire @Koovie @danish_vij @SR-91 @Koovie @Echo_419 @Levina @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @ito @Star Wars @ranjeet @arp2041 @Bombaywalla @Foxbat Alok @The Huskar @The_Sidewinder @proud_indian @Nilgiri @Roybot @kbd-raaf @JanjaWeed @hinduguy @Parul@Marxist @Sam. @Samudra Manthan @MKC @Armani @jaunty @lover @mkb95 @noksss @Sky lord @skyisthelimit @Dash @Archie @hembo @Kal Muah @AugenBlick @cloud_9 @Iggy @DesiGuy1403 @jbgt90 @Cherokee @T-72M1 @spartan117
> 
> 
> Rudra for the IAF:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had no idea the IAF had placed orders for the Rudra (I thought only the IA had had to date), a very pleasant surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> HAL need to focus on greatly expanding their productive capacity now; the ALH, Rudra and LCH are all in great demand.
> 
> 
> + complete kudos to HAL, creating a world class product (ALH) right out of the gates, continuously developing it (MK.1, Mk.2, Mk.3, Rudra etc etc) and then building on that experience to create the LCH which by all accounts will be a world class product in its own right.


I didn't get a tag....which sux!!!
But the news is awesome....I was wondering since their no much news regarding hal rudra....it's really surprising to see IAF ordering them!!

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## Abingdonboy

egodoc222 said:


> I didn't get a tag....which sux!!!


My apologies brother, brain fart


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## egodoc222

Abingdonboy said:


> My apologies brother, brain fart


Bhai could you post the video from which you took the screenshots!


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## Abingdonboy

egodoc222 said:


> Bhai could you post the video from which you took the screenshots!


Posted by @proud_indian :

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## Hellfire

#hydra# said:


> Who i
> 
> who is this



A new army aviation pilot??? Man I would call in air support 24x7!!!!!



knight11 said:


> Total LCH order for IAF and IA could be around 170. HAL need to now focus on the LUH and NLUH. There is huge demand of the utility hellicopter for both civilian and military purpose.
> 
> Strangely, why IA is not giving order for Rudra Gunship.



Budgetary constraints so far. Aviation brigade per corps is under progress. Will take time.

ALH is indeed an awesome platform. The only issue is our QA which at times makes us loose faith ... and the supply of spares remains a pain .. but should stabilise in another couple of years as numbers grow.
Loved flying in it (not as a pilot as I am not) especially in high altitude performance, I was impressed .....
@Abingdonboy thanks for the tag .... your updates have been a pleasure ... can't thank them all individually as am too lazy (Sorry for that) .. so one big THANK YOU!!!!

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## Abingdonboy

hellfire said:


> ALH is indeed an awesome platform. The only issue is our QA which at times makes us loose faith


Brother don't buy into that cr@p, there is zero evidence there are QA issues with the ALH at all.

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## GORKHALI

Abingdonboy said:


> My apologies brother, brain fart


You forgot the main player,which sux more... : (

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## Water Car Engineer

knight11 said:


> Total LCH order for IAF and IA could be around 170. HAL need to now focus on the LUH and NLUH. There is huge demand of the utility hellicopter for both civilian and military purpose.
> 
> *Strangely, why IA is not giving order for Rudra Gunship.*



It's ordered, in production, and flying with the IA ---







IA-2101










IA-2102





IA-2105










IA-2107





IA-2109





IA-2113



IA-2101 Seen
IA-2102 Seen
IA-2103 Unseen
IA-2104 Unseen
IA-2105 Seen
IA-2106 Unseen
IA-2107 Seen
IA-2108 Unseen
IA-2109 seen
IA-2110 Unseen
IA-2111 Unseen
IA-2112 Unseen
IA-2113 seen
.
.
.

Indian Army Aviation Rudras.

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## Sliver

Is the LCH already being produced? In the sense is there a manufacturing set up for this already? what is the rate of production? I read on defence web that a few countries from Africa are potential customers already - I guess this to be taken with a few pounds of salt?

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...ter&catid=124:military-helicopters&Itemid=282

India is apparently in talks with African countries interested in its Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), which is edging closer to production.

According to the Press Trust of India, an unnamed senior defence official said some African countries have shown interest in the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) LCH and the defence ministry is in talks with them as the aircraft is good value for money.

The LCH is still under development, with weapons trials expected in July-August this year. Weapons trials are part of the helicopter’s certification process.

The Indian Army has ordered 114 and the Indian Air Force 65. 

The LCH is a derivative of HAL’s the Dhruv light transport helicopter. Although developing the LCH from the Dhruv was intended to save costs and time, the timetable has slipped - largely due to problems with excess weight. First flight of the Turbomeca/HAL Ardiden 1H (Shakti) powered aircraft took place in March 2010, a year behind schedule. 

An important feature of the LCH is its ceiling of 6 000 metres (19 700 ft), considerably greater than the Mi-24’s 4 500 metres (14 800 ft). It retains the Dhruv airframe except for a new forward fuselage with tandem crew seating. The LCH features the same weapons system as the Dhruv Weapon System Integrated (WSI) version, which includes a Nexter 20 mm M621 cannon mounted in a THL 20 turret under the nose. Stub wings carry four twin anti-tank guided missile launchers for 7 km (4 mile) range Helina anti-tank missiles, four 70 mm (2.75 in) rocket pods and a pair of twin air-to-air missile launchers for Mistral missiles. Other key features of the helicopter include stealth, a glass cockpit, armour protection, crashworthiness and avionics for night operations (CCD TV, FLIR and laser rangefinder/designator).


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## Armani

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @knight11 @ni8mare @hellfire @Koovie @danish_vij @SR-91 @Koovie @Echo_419 @Levina @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @ito @Star Wars @ranjeet @arp2041 @Bombaywalla @Foxbat Alok @The Huskar @The_Sidewinder @proud_indian @Nilgiri @Roybot @kbd-raaf @JanjaWeed @hinduguy @Parul@Marxist @Sam. @Samudra Manthan @MKC @Armani @jaunty @lover @mkb95 @noksss @Sky lord @skyisthelimit @Dash @Archie @hembo @Kal Muah @AugenBlick @cloud_9 @Iggy @DesiGuy1403 @jbgt90 @Cherokee @T-72M1 @spartan117
> 
> 
> Rudra for the IAF:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had no idea the IAF had placed orders for the Rudra (I thought only the IA had had to date), a very pleasant surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> HAL need to focus on greatly expanding their productive capacity now; the ALH, Rudra and LCH are all in great demand.
> 
> 
> + complete kudos to HAL, creating a world class product (ALH) right out of the gates, continuously developing it (MK.1, Mk.2, Mk.3, Rudra etc etc) and then building on that experience to create the LCH which by all accounts will be a world class product in its own right.



Yes, I think IAF has 16 of them on order.


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## Water Car Engineer

Sliver said:


> Is the LCH already being produced? In the sense is there a manufacturing set up for this already? what is the rate of production? I read on defence web that a few countries from Africa are potential customers already - I guess this to be taken with a few pounds of salt?
> 
> http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...ter&catid=124:military-helicopters&Itemid=282
> 
> India is apparently in talks with African countries interested in its Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), which is edging closer to production.
> 
> According to the Press Trust of India, an unnamed senior defence official said some African countries have shown interest in the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) LCH and the defence ministry is in talks with them as the aircraft is good value for money.
> 
> The LCH is still under development, with weapons trials expected in July-August this year. Weapons trials are part of the helicopter’s certification process.
> 
> The Indian Army has ordered 114 and the Indian Air Force 65.
> 
> The LCH is a derivative of HAL’s the Dhruv light transport helicopter. Although developing the LCH from the Dhruv was intended to save costs and time, the timetable has slipped - largely due to problems with excess weight. First flight of the Turbomeca/HAL Ardiden 1H (Shakti) powered aircraft took place in March 2010, a year behind schedule.
> 
> An important feature of the LCH is its ceiling of 6 000 metres (19 700 ft), considerably greater than the Mi-24’s 4 500 metres (14 800 ft). It retains the Dhruv airframe except for a new forward fuselage with tandem crew seating. The LCH features the same weapons system as the Dhruv Weapon System Integrated (WSI) version, which includes a Nexter 20 mm M621 cannon mounted in a THL 20 turret under the nose. Stub wings carry four twin anti-tank guided missile launchers for 7 km (4 mile) range Helina anti-tank missiles, four 70 mm (2.75 in) rocket pods and a pair of twin air-to-air missile launchers for Mistral missiles. Other key features of the helicopter include stealth, a glass cockpit, armour protection, crashworthiness and avionics for night operations (CCD TV, FLIR and laser rangefinder/designator).




There's a massive plant coming up for heli manufacturing and development recently laid.






First heli out of this plant is planned by 2018. This plant will produce LCH, LUH, among others.

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## Hellfire

Abingdonboy said:


> Brother don't buy into that cr@p, there is zero evidence there are QA issues with the ALH at all.



Er .... personal experience here ... been in that platform quite a few times ....!!! Anyways that was old news. Post 13 May 2013 ALH loss in Siachen at Sonam Base (which was in news lately for the avalanche) there was a major overhaul of the whole supply chain ....








copyright image of poster!!!!

The beauty in the highest battlefield making a supply drop .......

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## Water Car Engineer

TD1






TD2






TD3






TD4






Another TD set up on a jig

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## Water Car Engineer

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @knight11 @ni8mare @hellfire @Koovie @danish_vij @SR-91 @Koovie @Echo_419 @Levina @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @ito @Star Wars @ranjeet @arp2041 @Bombaywalla @Foxbat Alok @The Huskar @The_Sidewinder @proud_indian @Nilgiri @Roybot @kbd-raaf @JanjaWeed @hinduguy @Parul@Marxist @Sam. @Samudra Manthan @MKC @Armani @jaunty @lover @mkb95 @noksss @Sky lord @skyisthelimit @Dash @Archie @hembo @Kal Muah @AugenBlick @cloud_9 @Iggy @DesiGuy1403 @jbgt90 @Cherokee @T-72M1 @spartan117
> 
> 
> Rudra for the IAF:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had no idea the IAF had placed orders for the Rudra (I thought only the IA had had to date), a very pleasant surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> HAL need to focus on greatly expanding their productive capacity now; the ALH, Rudra and LCH are all in great demand.
> 
> 
> + complete kudos to HAL, creating a world class product (ALH) right out of the gates, continuously developing it (MK.1, Mk.2, Mk.3, Rudra etc etc) and then building on that experience to create the LCH which by all accounts will be a world class product in its own right.




That looks phenomenal. I like the IAF colors way more than the IA ones. What we can expect for IAF LCH as well.

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## Foxbat Alok

TD4

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## Abingdonboy

Sliver said:


> Is the LCH already being produced?


IOC will be attained this year and production will begin in 2018.



Armani said:


> Yes, I think IAF has 16 of them on order.


I have no idea but 16 seems to be far to small,it isn't even a HU's (the IAF's rotary wing SQN designations) worth. I'd have thought the minimum order would be 32 units to make the logistics viable. 



Water Car Engineer said:


> That looks phenomenal. I like the IAF colors way more than the IA ones. What we can expect for IAF LCH as well.


Agreed, the IA seems to have opted (for now) a black paintjob for their Rudras which I think is most impractical, in IAF colours the Rudra (and ALH) look great.


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## Foxbat Alok

Old TD of IAF rudra with 3 barrel turrent , mi-17v5 rocket pods 
& note NV sensors near the main rotor blade 
@Water Car Engineer @Abingdonboy

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## fockewulf190

Abingdonboy said:


> IOC will be attained this year and production will begin in 2018.


I hear it already attained IOC..but I cannot back up my claim..as of now


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## MKC

Abingdonboy said:


> I have no idea but 16 seems to be far to small,it isn't even a HU's (the IAF's rotary wing SQN designations) worth. I'd have thought the minimum order would be 32 units to make the logistics viable.


More than 20 Rudras are operational in Army with total on order 60.
NDTV


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## Abingdonboy

MKC said:


> More than 20 Rudras are operational in Army with total on order 60.
> NDTV


60 for the IA perhaps but there is still no indication on how many the IAF has on order.


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## fsayed

Abingdonboy said:


> 60 for the IA perhaps but there is still no indication on how many the IAF has on order.





MKC said:


> More than 20 Rudras are operational in Army with total on order 60.
> NDTV



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Rudra
India
Indian Air Force (16 on order)
Indian Army, Army Aviation Corps (India) (60 on order)

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## shree835



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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/739839280323952640

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## Abingdonboy

proud_indian said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/739839280323952640


All the best to this project, there won't be any need for importing single engined light weight utility helos after this beauty's development and it should be a very attractive product for export customers.

Hopefully the MoD/GoI stops throwing bones to the Russians, scraps the simply pointless Ka-226 deal and gives the full 600 unit order to HAL for LUH/RSH for the IA and IAF.


@sathya @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @PARIKRAMA @Levina @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @punit @Parul @SpArK @nair @scorpionx @Roybot @kbd-raaf @IndoCarib @IndoUS @SR-91 @ACE OF THE AIR @GURU DUTT @GORKHALI @bloo @ni8mare @Sam. @Syama Ayas

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> All the best to this project, there won't be any need for importing single engined light weight utility helos after this beauty's development and it should be a very attractive product for export customers.
> 
> Hopefully the MoD/GoI stops throwing bones to the Russians, scraps the simply pointless Ka-226 deal and gives the full 600 unit order to HAL for LUH/RSH for the IA and IAF.
> 
> 
> @sathya @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @PARIKRAMA @Levina @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @punit @Parul @SpArK @nair @scorpionx @Roybot @kbd-raaf @IndoCarib @IndoUS @SR-91 @ACE OF THE AIR @GURU DUTT @GORKHALI @bloo @ni8mare @Sam. @Syama Ayas





It's is a beauty... it will do really well in India as there is huge need for these helos.
Unfortunately, Cancellation of KA226 will have huge repercussions.

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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> It's is a beauty... it will do really well in India as there is huge need for these helos.


Combining the IA, IAF, CAPF, local/state police force, HEMS, Pawan Hans, private charter etc etc requirements for such a helo the demand (just in India) for the HAL LUH could easily be for >1000 units over the next 10-15 years. Easily.



SR-91 said:


> Unfortunately, Cancellation of KA226 will have huge repercussions.


Really? It's a pretty miniscule deal in the grand scheme of things

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## fsayed

SR-91 said:


> It's is a beauty... it will do really well in India as there is huge need for these helos.
> Unfortunately, Cancellation of KA226 will have huge repercussions.


We r self reliant in helicopter space except heavy ones
Not a big deal

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## fsayed




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## Sliver

@fsayed the video - at 2:02 - something rolled off the turret off the tank - what was that?


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## cerberus

Sliver said:


> @fsayed the video - at 2:02 - something rolled off the turret off the tank - what was that?


It Piece of mud which due to tank impact on ground


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## S.U.R.B.

Sliver said:


> @fsayed the video - at 2:02 - something rolled off the turret off the tank - what was that?



Off topic, but let me answer the query.

Those are the stubs cases ejected by the autoloader after the ammo is fired.It comes out of a hatch after the weapon is fired.Tanks around the world employ different techniques to relocate or get rid of the stub cases via some stub case ejection system. In this case as in the video you have seen or in the video below there is hatch on a port located at the back of turret which is used to eject those stubs just like a bullet casing.Those were rolling at the back and as the tank jumped it rolled off the tank.
Considering that the part of video is when the tank is crossing an obstacle, it must have fired some shells prior to that (moving at a lower speed) and hence one can see more than one stubs rolling back there.

Ejection systems like these have been modified largely because it breaks the NBC protection seal so, in some newer and advanced versions the stub cases ejected from gun after fire, are not ejected by autoloader outside, but are returned to autoloaders ammo cassettes during the loading cycle or are dealt with differently.

_Caution_: if you are using the head phones then consider lowering the volume.

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## RAMPAGE

S.U.R.B. said:


> Off topic, but let me answer the query.
> 
> Those are the stubs cases ejected by the autoloader after the ammo is fired.It comes out of a hatch after the weapon is fired.Tanks around the world employ different techniques to relocate or get rid of the stub cases via some stub case ejection system. In this case as in the video you have seen or in the video below there is hatch on a port located at the back of turret which is used to eject those stubs just like a bullet casing.Those were rolling at the back and as the tank jumped it rolled off the tank.
> Considering that the part of video is when the tank is crossing an obstacle, it must have fired some shells prior to that (moving at a lower speed) and hence one can see more than one stubs rolling back there.
> 
> Ejection systems like these have been modified largely because it breaks the NBC protection seal so, in some newer and advanced versions the stub cases ejected from gun after fire, are not ejected by autoloader outside, but are returned to autoloaders ammo cassettes during the loading cycle or are dealt with differently.
> 
> _Caution_: if you are using the head phones then consider lowering the volume.


Doctor by day and mechanical engineer/Gunner by night?

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## Sliver

@S.U.R.B. i was about to ask if that was the casing - but the way it rolled out did not look like it was "designed" to roll out that way. your theory sounds more plausible - it was probably an earlier round that got stuck - but got gunked out on impact after the ski jump. and thats kind of worrying - points to some design deficiencies in my opinion (again - only my opinion on what I have seen from that video).

but - thanks for the detailed explanation - sorry am not worth more than a like in these forums even though i have been here for 6 years

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## samlove

Technology Demonstrator-4 (TD-4) of Light Combat Helicopter is now flying. You can notice the "TRISHUL" sign on the chopper. Earlier TD had a "TIGER" mark or were painted in different camo.
With more TD's, HAL will be able to get its IOC within timeframe

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## Indian009

samlove said:


> Technology Demonstrator-4 (TD-4) of Light Combat Helicopter is now flying. You can notice the "TRISHUL" sign on the chopper. Earlier TD had a "TIGER" mark or were painted in different camo.
> With more TD's, HAL will be able to get its IOC within timeframe


Looks new but you sure its not just the update on older TDs ??? Any official sourse for TH4 ???
@Abingdonboy


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## Abingdonboy

Indian009 said:


> Looks new but you sure its not just the update on older TDs ??? Any official sourse for TH4 ???
> @Abingdonboy


This is TD-4 that HAL funded themselves to speed up IOC.


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## Local_Legend

I*ndia's Advanced Light Attack Helicopter vs China's Z-10 Attack Helicopter


http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/06/idn-take-hal-lch-vs-changhe-z-10.html?m=1*

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## topgun047

Just watch this video...I guarantee it'll be 2 minutes well spent.

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## Sahil.universal

They make It sound like witchcraft


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## HariPrasad

Local_Legend said:


> I*ndia's Advanced Light Attack Helicopter vs China's Z-10 Attack Helicopter
> 
> 
> http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/06/idn-take-hal-lch-vs-changhe-z-10.html?m=1*



What is the comparison???? It has almost double weight with weaker engine. T/W ration of chinese chopper is less than 50% of LCH. Where is comparison.?

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## Local_Legend

HariPrasad said:


> What is the comparison???? It has almost double weight with weaker engine. T/W ration of chinese chopper is less than 50% of LCH. Where is comparison.?




As LCH is designed for high altitude warfare , Z 10 also has the same service ceiling , more combat radius,it's present with 100+ in service ,more take off weight etc apart from the higher thrust to weight ratio of LCH. 

may be that's the reason why the article compares it . 

Let alone the handful of AH - 64s, LCH will be the main attack helo for IAF and China will be with Z-10 and Z-19 .

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## fsayed



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## nang2

HariPrasad said:


> What is the comparison???? It has almost double weight with weaker engine. T/W ration of chinese chopper is less than 50% of LCH. Where is comparison.?


Both are 5.5 ton helicopters. Z10's weak engine is a known issue. It has been enhanced slightly but a new engine is certainly needed.


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## Kraitcorp



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## Han Patriot

HariPrasad said:


> What is the comparison???? It has almost double weight with weaker engine. T/W ration of chinese chopper is less than 50% of LCH. Where is comparison.?



The point is Prasad, no one knows the weight nor capability of the WZ-10, you just got it from Wikipedia. I always tell my friends, China does not need to spy on India, they will “announce” it for you, and then you just add 20 years to it. They will even give you all the details and yes official details.Walla!

Helicopters are not really hard to design and manufacture, we have been doing it for decades. The key technologies here are the engines, and I mean indigenous ones, whereby a 2kw one had been successfully developed in China. Do you have one?

I am not so sure about the domestic content of Shakti, most likely screw driver tech with a label?

And this LCH is still under testing? Only 4 made? Trust me it will take you another decade.


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## HariPrasad

Local_Legend said:


> As LCH is designed for high altitude warfare , Z 10 also has the same service ceiling , more combat radius,it's present with 100+ in service ,more take off weight etc apart from the higher thrust to weight ratio of LCH.
> 
> may be that's the reason why the article compares it .
> 
> Let alone the handful of AH - 64s, LCH will be the main attack helo for IAF and China will be with Z-10 and Z-19 .



Do you believe chinese claim. As per the simulation study of Vivek Ahuja, Z 10 can not carry more than 500 KG at any altitude above 10000 m (Infact any chopper wighing 5500 weight with z10 type of power engine.) . They are the people of tall claim and low achievement. Z 10 is a junk worth hardly anything. It is too bulky with a very weak engine. It can not carry a decent payload and fly at high altitude.



Han Patriot said:


> The point is Prasad, no one knows the weight nor capability of the WZ-10, you just got it from Wikipedia. I always tell my friends, China does not need to spy on India, they will “announce” it for you, and then you just add 20 years to it. They will even give you all the details and yes official details.Walla!
> 
> Helicopters are not really hard to design and manufacture, we have been doing it for decades. The key technologies here are the engines, and I mean indigenous ones, whereby a 2kw one had been successfully developed in China. Do you have one?
> 
> I am not so sure about the domestic content of Shakti, most likely screw driver tech with a label?
> 
> And this LCH is still under testing? Only 4 made? Trust me it will take you another decade.



If i believe you than I do not see any point in chinese fanboys getting excited of Z 10's capability as DATA is not known. The DATA is very much true and available on many open forum. You just try to use this as the cover up the weakness of Z10.



nang2 said:


> Both are 5.5 ton helicopters. Z10's weak engine is a known issue. It has been enhanced slightly but a new engine is certainly needed.



Man LCH weighs just half of Z10. Both are not in same category. In addition, LCH has got more powerful engine now. so it is more powerful than what it was couple of years ago.


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## nair

Han Patriot said:


> LOL, yes Hari, you can imagine and* jerk yourself to orgasm*. Your technology is pathetic, apart from screw driver and sticker tech. Even your Shakti is screw driver tech. Wow, an Indian analyst on Z-10. Half the weight? Funny nobody ever buys Indian weapons. You can't even make a decent rifle for God's sake.



There are better ways to show your disagreement...Rated negative, Edit the post and get it reversed....


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## HariPrasad

Han Patriot said:


> LOL, yes Hari, you can imagine and jerk yourself to orgasm. Your technology is pathetic, apart from screw driver and sticker tech. Even your Shakti is screw driver tech. Wow, an Indian analyst on Z-10. Half the weight? Funny nobody ever buys Indian weapons. You can't even make a decent rifle for God's sake.



Ohhhh yes. You can believe whatever you want. LCH weighs 2700 KG against 5500 KG of Z 10. Still it has more powerful engine. So be happy in your ignorant state of mind. I do not want to discuss this further because soon that semi literate gang will strike the forum with a lots of Idiocy like you did. So be happy and believe whatever suite you.

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## Water Car Engineer

Kraitcorp said:


>




Damn good pic!

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## Han Patriot

HariPrasad said:


> Ohhhh yes. You can believe whatever you want. LCH weighs 2700 KG against 5500 KG of Z 10. Still it has more powerful engine. So be happy in your ignorant state of mind. I do not want to discuss this further because soon that semi literate gang will strike the forum with a lots of Idiocy like you did. So be happy and believe whatever suite you.



I deleted my post as I think I went overboard saying jerk off. Let's have a civil discussion, let's think logically, what revolutionary technology enabled India to produce a helicopter weighing half the weight of the Apache? Yet Indians are buying Apaches?

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## HariPrasad

Han Patriot said:


> I deleted my post as I think I went overboard saying jerk off. Let's have a civil discussion, let's think logically, what revolutionary technology enabled India to produce a helicopter weighing half the weight of the Apache? Yet Indians are buying Apaches?



Apache is a different weight class of Chopper having great electronics and unmatched weapon system. That is why.


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## Mufflerman

Han Patriot said:


> I deleted my post as I think I went overboard saying jerk off. Let's have a civil discussion, let's think logically, what revolutionary technology enabled India to produce a helicopter weighing half the weight of the Apache? Yet Indians are buying Apaches?


Ok, so you beef is not that z10 weighs 5.5 t but that LCA weighs 2.7t?
Good god. Get a life man.
The lch was designed to weigh less to get it higher up. Look at the profile. Its just not as obese as the z10.
The z10 looks like it's 8 months pregnant. The lch looks lee chong wei in 2012 before his drug ban.

The Apache is heavier because it's loaded 3 times as much as either copter with goodies that China is still 10 years behind.

But most importantly I think you forgot that we put together a fighter with the highest airframe composite content of any in the world.

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## nair

Han Patriot said:


> deleted my post as I think I went overboard saying jerk off



I asked you to edit it, not delete it..... Now your rating cannot be reversed as i cannot access it.........

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## Han Patriot

nair said:


> I asked you to edit it, not delete it..... Now your rating cannot be reversed as i cannot access it.........


Well I don't really like the post anyway.



HariPrasad said:


> Apache is a different weight class of Chopper having great electronics and unmatched weapon system. That is why.


There you go.

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## HariPrasad

Han Patriot said:


> Well I don't really like the post anyway.
> 
> 
> There you go.



What you are saying is just like saying that why India buys sukhois inspite of having LCA. They are different class of choppers.

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## Han Patriot

HariPrasad said:


> What you are saying is just like saying that why India buys sukhois inspite of having LCA. They are different class of choppers.


I rest my case

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## R!CK

Han Patriot said:


> I deleted my post as I think I went overboard saying jerk off. Let's have a civil discussion, let's think logically, what revolutionary technology enabled India to produce a helicopter weighing half the weight of the Apache? Yet Indians are buying Apaches?



By that logic, PRC did a damn huge mistake procuring the J10s. Oh man, maybe you should have told them to stick with the J11s which are technologically better. But know what, you still have time to stop them making J31 since J20 is superior to it?

P.S I wish people used logics rather than ego on forums. Or maybe forums are a platform for bragging and expressing hate? Wish I knew!

Good day!

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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/752745717488168961
@PARIKRAMA @Stephen Cohen @Dash @BON PLAN @Taygibay @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil

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## PARIKRAMA

*HAL-Safran pact to support helicopter operators Written by: OneIndia Defence Desk Published: Tuesday, July 12, 2016, *11:26 [IST] Bengaluru, July 12: 

A new support centre to back rotorcraft customers globally will be established jointly by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and Safran Helicopter Engines. 

The joint venture (JV) to form the centre was signed by D K Venkatesh, Director (Engg, and R&D), HAL and Bruno Even, CEO, Turbomeca, at Farnborough International Airshow.

An HAL official said that the new centre would be coming up in Goa, the home state of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. The centre would be set up in 2017 with the first phase of operations expected to come up in 2019.. 

The new centre will provide Maintenance Repair and Overhaul (MRO) services for Safran TM333 and HAL Shakti engines. The new centre, when established, claims to provide customers with 'first-class service' including optimised engine availability. HAL CMD T S Raju said the JV reflected the close relationship between HAL and Safran Helicopter Engines established over the years. 

"The JV places both partners on an ambitious path towards world-beating customer support in the field of engine MRO. T*he JV will provide the impetus for the 'Make-in-India' initiative since around 1000 Shakti engines are likely to fly in the coming years," says Raju. Shakti engine powers Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv, Light Combat Helicopter and Light Utility Helicopter. Serge Maillé of Safran Helicopter Engines termed the JV as a new step in the partnership with HAL. "Together we are committed to delivering world-class support to our customers, both in India and throughout the region," he says. HAL says with over 1000 engines, including 250 TM333 and 250 Shakti, India's armed forces are one of the largest operators of Safran-designed helicopter engines. Shakti is the Indian designation for the Safran's Ardiden 1, co-developed with HAL and produced under license*. OneIndia News

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/hal-safran-pact-to-support-helicopter-operators-2150544.html

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## Han Patriot

R!CK said:


> By that logic, PRC did a damn huge mistake procuring the J10s. Oh man, maybe you should have told them to stick with the J11s which are technologically better. But know what, you still have time to stop them making J31 since J20 is superior to it?
> 
> P.S I wish people used logics rather than ego on forums. Or maybe forums are a platform for bragging and expressing hate? Wish I knew!
> 
> Good day!


Your compatriot already answered your question. Z-10 and LCH are of different class.


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## kaykay

Han Patriot said:


> Your compatriot already answered your question. Z-10 and LCH are of different class.


So you agree that you were dumb enough comparing it with Apache when that is of a different class altogether?

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## Han Patriot

kaykay said:


> So you agree that you were dumb enough comparing it with Apache when that is of a different class altogether?


It was the other way round. You are dumb enough to think Z-10 is the same class as LCH. LOL...


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## kaykay

Han Patriot said:


> It was the other way round. You are dumb enough to think Z-10 is the same class as LCH. LOL...


LOLz Though they are not of same weight category still LCH has a better and more powerful engine. I think this point was what HariPrasad was making which is a fact!!!

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## Han Patriot

kaykay said:


> LOLz Though they are not of same weight category still LCH has a better and more powerful engine. I think this point was what HariPrasad was making which is a fact!!!


You can read my previous post again. I am really sick of repeating myself.

Apache:

*Empty weight:* 11,387 lb (5,165 kg)
*Powerplant:* 2 × General Electric T700-GE-701 turboshafts, 1,260 kW (1,690 shp) 

Z-10

*Empty weight:* 5,540 kg[22] (lb)
*Powerplant:* 2 × WZ-9 turboshaft[22], 1000 kw (1350 shp) each
LCH

*Empty weight:* 2,700 kg?
*Powerplant:* 2 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshaft, 1,067 kW (1,430 shp[39])
What can you deduce from this comparison? If we go by your Indian logic, LCH is even more powerful than Apache, and yet you are buying Apaches. This is the same mentality when comparing LCA and other planes.


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## Allen Iverson

Han Patriot said:


> You can read my previous post again. I am really sick of repeating myself.
> 
> Apache:
> 
> *Empty weight:* 11,387 lb (5,165 kg)
> *Powerplant:* 2 × General Electric T700-GE-701 turboshafts, 1,260 kW (1,690 shp)
> 
> Z-10
> 
> *Empty weight:* 5,540 kg[22] (lb)
> *Powerplant:* 2 × WZ-9 turboshaft[22], 1000 kw (1350 shp) each
> LCH
> 
> *Empty weight:* 2,700 kg?
> *Powerplant:* 2 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshaft, 1,067 kW (1,430 shp[39])
> What can you deduce from this comparison? If we go by your Indian logic, LCH is even more powerful than Apache, and yet you are buying Apaches. This is the same mentality when comparing LCA and other planes.


My dear Genius, LCH and Apache are totally different class of choppers.. Apache Longbow has got excellent avionics, Weapon integration and a very long history of Combat operations.. Where as LCH is just into its FOC and yet to be built in large numbers.. There is a lot to evolve in this platform.. We have to start bringing in this in active combat roles slowly, and in a span two to three years, it will be well versed with the users in terms of Spares, maintenance, Training etc.
Where as Apache is to meet our immediate requirements.. Got your answer??

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## Han Patriot

Allen Iverson said:


> My dear Genius, LCH and Apache are totally different class of choppers.. Apache Longbow has got excellent avionics, Weapon integration and a very long history of Combat operations.. Where as LCH is just into its FOC and yet to be built in large numbers.. There is a lot to evolve in this platform.. We have to start bringing in this in active combat roles slowly, and in a span two to three years, it will be well versed with the users in terms of Spares, maintenance, Training etc.
> Where as Apache is to meet our immediate requirements.. Got your answer??


Yes, my Indian genius, what makes you think the Z-10 does not have good avionics? And I already repeated many times, nobody knows the weight of the Z-10, but it was created to counter the Apache. So it was meant to be in the same class as Apache.

Yet by your logic this 'thin' LCH can complement so much avionics, so light and with such a powerful engine that even the Apache cannot match it. Funny that you are buying Apache. The same logics in LCA.


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## Athen

Water Car Engineer said:


> It's ordered, in production, and flying with the IA ---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2101
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2102
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2105
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2107
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2109
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2113
> 
> 
> 
> IA-2101 Seen
> IA-2102 Seen
> IA-2103 Unseen
> IA-2104 Unseen
> IA-2105 Seen
> IA-2106 Unseen
> IA-2107 Seen
> IA-2108 Unseen
> IA-2109 seen
> IA-2110 Unseen
> IA-2111 Unseen
> IA-2112 Unseen
> IA-2113 seen
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Indian Army Aviation Rudras.


Can you please tell me more about the sensors on the nose.. Its look like dummy is it??!! And what kind of anti tank/armour missiles can it fire other than helina?? 
Thank you!


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## The Huskar

Han Patriot said:


> *Powerplant:* 2 × General Electric T700-GE-701 turboshafts, 1,260 kW (1,690 shp)


Wrong info

*Powerplant:* 2 × General Electric T700-GE-701 turboshafts, 1,690 shp (1,260 kW) [upgraded to T700-GE-701C (for AH-64A/D from 1990), 1,890 shp (1,409 kW)] each

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## Han Patriot

The Huskar said:


> Wrong info
> 
> *Powerplant:* 2 × General Electric T700-GE-701 turboshafts, 1,690 shp (1,260 kW) [upgraded to T700-GE-701C (for AH-64A/D from 1990), 1,890 shp (1,409 kW)] each


Its not wrong info its additional info


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## Allen Iverson

Han Patriot said:


> Its not wrong info its additional info


If a new addition had happened then you should provide the new updated info, otherwise you'll be ridiculed for sharing wrong info, dumbass..



Han Patriot said:


> Yes, my Indian genius, what makes you think the Z-10 does not have good avionics? And I already repeated many times, nobody knows the weight of the Z-10, but it was created to counter the Apache. So it was meant to be in the same class as Apache.
> 
> Yet by your logic this 'thin' LCH can complement so much avionics, so light and with such a powerful engine that even the Apache cannot match it. Funny that you are buying Apache. The same logics in LCA.





Han Patriot said:


> Yes, my Indian genius, what makes you think the Z-10 does not have good avionics? And I already repeated many times, nobody knows the weight of the Z-10, but it was created to counter the Apache. So it was meant to be in the same class as Apache.
> 
> Yet by your logic this 'thin' LCH can complement so much avionics, so light and with such a powerful engine that even the Apache cannot match it. Funny that you are buying Apache. The same logics in LCA.

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## Water Car Engineer

Athen said:


> Can you please tell me more about the sensors on the nose.. Its look like dummy is it??!! And what kind of anti tank/armour missiles can it fire other than helina??
> Thank you!



The pod's OEM is Israeli, being produced by BEL. It's on IA, IAF to choose what other anti tank missile it wants on their airwing. It was shown with a pack of LAHATs a while, back but it has only been testing Helinas so far.

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## The Huskar

Han Patriot said:


> Its not wrong info its additional info


Information withheld is information denied.


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## Han Patriot

The Huskar said:


> Information withheld is information denied.


Its in wikipedia for god's sake even then LCH is still propotionally 'better' than Apache going by Indian logics.


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## mkb95



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## Kraitcorp

Indian army skydivers jump out of an Indian Army Aviation Corps ALH Dhruv

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## Kraitcorp

Water Car Engineer said:


> The pod's OEM is Israeli, being produced by BEL. It's on IA, IAF to choose what other anti tank missile it wants on their airwing. It was shown with a pack of LAHATs a while, back but it has only been testing Helinas so far.


Damn that one looks armed to the teeth


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## Abingdonboy

@Water Car Engineer @SpArK @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR 

HAL LUH has been spotted flying around HAL airport for the past few days ahead of its "offical" first flight.

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## nair

Abingdonboy said:


> @Water Car Engineer @SpArK @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR
> 
> HAL LUH has been spotted flying around HAL airport for the past few days ahead of its "offical" first flight.



They have an heli division on the other side of the HAL air port, Used to live near it, and i still remember those sleepless nights during their testing at night......

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## bhakshak

Abingdonboy said:


> @Water Car Engineer @SpArK @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR
> 
> HAL LUH has been spotted flying around HAL airport for the past few days ahead of its "offical" first flight.


Any random pics of that flight!!


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## Skull and Bones

Abingdonboy said:


> @Water Car Engineer @SpArK @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR
> 
> HAL LUH has been spotted flying around HAL airport for the past few days ahead of its "offical" first flight.



Shadi se pehle suhaagraat? 

Anyone got any pictures?

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## indiatester

Abingdonboy said:


> @Water Car Engineer @SpArK @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR
> 
> HAL LUH has been spotted flying around HAL airport for the past few days ahead of its "offical" first flight.



This was 2 days ago. I tried to snap a picture, but could not. Strangely it was not with the primer colour. Or alternatively I am mistaken.

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## W@rwolf

LUH pic released by HAL







https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/...059529590839/1198870410176407/?type=3&theater

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## Abingdonboy

bhakshak said:


> Any random pics of that flight!!





Skull and Bones said:


> Shadi se pehle suhaagraat?
> 
> Anyone got any pictures?





indiatester said:


> This was 2 days ago. I tried to snap a picture, but could not. Strangely it was not with the primer colour. Or alternatively I am mistaken.



No pictures from my end brothers, this was told to me.

Apparently it is sporting a very similar livery to the mockup:






But let's wait and see what colour scheme eventually is used for the offcial first flight.

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## GuardianRED

Abingdonboy said:


> No pictures from my end brothers, this was told to me.
> 
> Apparently it is sporting a very similar livery to the mockup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But let's wait and see what colour scheme eventually is used for the offcial first flight.


When is the official First Flight?

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## Abingdonboy

GuardianRED said:


> When is the official First Flight?


No idea bro, probably in the next 3 weeks. From what I hear HAL have been flight testing the LUH for a few weeks now.

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## raj76

NEW DELHI: The first flight of an indigenously developed light utility helicopter is to take place within a week - a major milestone for the project - with developers overcoming a final software-related hurdle that had held up tests. 

Authoritative sources told ET that the first flight of the 3.1 tonne prototype LUH, developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. to replace the ageing Cheetah and Chetak fleets of the armed forces, will take place in Bengaluru within a few days, depending on depending on the weather. 

"We are now ready to take the chopper in the air. All hurdles have been crossed and now it is only a matter of the right day when all conditions are good for a first flight," a senior official involved in the project told ET. 

While ground tests for the LUH were concluded in 2015, the first flight had been held up due to certification issues in the software used in the chopper. As the LUH is classified as a military project, special encrypted so ftware was needed. The developer had initially shared codes that did not meet specifications. 

The LUH program has been in the works since 2008, when the armed forces projected a requirement for a light chopper that could carry troops and supplies to border areas. More than 200 choppers are needed by the three armed forces. 

There has been renewed energy on accelerating the project in the past year, with a parallel process being driven by the armed forces to procure a light chopper for urgent needs. .. 


AL plans to start manufacturing the choppers from 2018, after certifications and operational clearances are obtained. The chopper is powered by a Shakti engine made in collaboration with French company Turbomeca. A new production facility is to be built for the LUH project. 

Besides troop transport, the choppers can be used for aerial reconnaissance and civilian purposes to meet domestic and export demand. 

HAL is working on a project with Russian Helicopters to build 200 of the KA 226 light choppers in India as part of a government-to-government deal. A detailed agreement on the KA 226 is expected to be finalised shortly. 



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/hindusta...er-set-to-fly-in-a-week.447244/#ixzz4J4V3Aotj

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## Kraitcorp



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## PARIKRAMA

X posting for @Abingdonboy

You would like to see how some of our posts are picked up and used..
see this is your post





Thats dec 08,2014 
https://defence.pk/threads/hal-luh-updates-and-discussions.347568/#post-6517337
Now see this
  











__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/771586004381642754
They even watermarked it to make it exclusive and authentic.. 

https://defence.pk/threads/hal-luh-updates-and-discussions.347568/page-5#post-8643344

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## SR-91

Would've been nice if they had redesigned new blades.


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## Armani

SR-91 said:


> Would've been nice if they had redesigned new blades.



What was wrong with the old ones?


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## SR-91

Armani said:


> What was wrong with the old ones?



We need to start thinking about innovation!!!!!

They need come up with a new design to reduce blade-vortex, reduce noise levels.





Like this


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## sathya

LUH will have foldable blades..


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## Armani

SR-91 said:


> We need to start thinking about innovation!!!!!
> 
> They need come up with a new design to reduce blade-vortex, reduce noise levels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like this



Innovations do not come unless billions are poured into R&D. Even China rarely innovates.

HAL has a long way to go before it can reach the level of Sikorsky or AgustaWestland. For now and the foreseeable future, anything that fits the bill is ok.

Furthermore, need drives requirement. If IAF/AAC specifies that they need reduced noise levels, HAL will work on it. Not otherwise - just to please onlookers or appeal to international buyers.

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## migflug

*15-minutes hovering marks light utility helicopter's first flight*
Chethan Kumar| TNN | Sep 6, 2016, 02.43 PM IST




BENGALURU:* A prototype of the indigenous light utility helicopter (LUH) took off at 12.15pm on Tuesday, marking the first flight of the chopper*, a 187-unit order for which has already been placed with defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Sources in HAL said that the firm's chief test pilot Wing Commander Unni Pillai and test pilot Anil Bhambhani were in the cockpit for the first technical flight.

*"It took off at 12.15(pm) and was in the air for 15 minutes. It was a technical flight and several parameters were tested," *the source could not immediately reveal all the details immediately.
The LUH platform is a single engine multi-purpose helicopter in the three-tonne class and is designed to perform various roles like policing, urban surveillance, medical ambulance etc.




*HAL has been keen on LUH for a while now and has even embarked on a separate complex for chopper production in Tumakuru near Bengaluru, which will largely focus on LUH*. The first flight of the prototype was to happen sometime last year, but there has been a considerable delay.


Speaking about the new chopper complex in Tumakuru, HAL Chairman T Survarna Raju had told TOI earlier: "Activities that support Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), and Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv will also be taken up in the new complex."




However, the primary responsibility will be to produce the LUH. *Raju had said that if everything went well the unit could be operational by 2017-18. It will have the initial capacity to build 3 tonne class and 10 tonne class of helicopters and will be able to build about five 3-tonne class of LUHs per year.*






http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...copters-first-flight/articleshow/54028987.cms

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## migflug

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer@Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @Levina @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino@noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @others

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## zebra7

Good Going HAL. Hope it gets ready soon, and inducted in numbers which is good for the indigenous Aviation Industry.

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## GuardianRED

Excellent

But then this isn't the Official Flight ! ...yes?

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## Muhammad Omar

Congrats

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## Skull and Bones

Things are going good.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Good. 

I really feel that the production should not be given to HAL alone. Get a private party too.

Means one line from HAL and other from private sector. For Dhruv, LCH, LUH and LCA.

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## Grevion

Nice.
HAL has been doing some great work lately.
So why don't we shed some load off them and transfer the LCA line to a private sector company.

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## zebra7

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Good.
> 
> I really feel that the production should not be given to HAL alone. Get a private party too.
> 
> Means one line from HAL and other from private sector. For Dhruv, LCH, LUH and LCA.



LOL, I think the director of the HAL have mentioned once, that when they called for the private players to bid for the production of the Druva chopper, not a single party showed interest. The private players will only invest, when they have the sure order of hellicopter in large qty. If I have to assume, than I will guess the requirement of the utility helicopter in India, both military and civilian to be around 1000, and that's makes things more positive and promising.

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## anant_s

migflug said:


> *Raju had said that if everything went well the unit could be operational by 2017-18. It will have the initial capacity to build 3 tonne class and 10 tonne class of helicopters and will be able to build about five 3-tonne class of LUHs per year.*


best news i've heard all day!

Kudos to development & test team

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## AMCA

*Raju had said that if everything went well the unit could be operational by 2017-18. It will have the initial capacity to build 3 tonne class and 10 tonne class of helicopters and will be able to build about five 3-tonne class of LUHs per year.*

Have I read it wrongly!! Gentlemen!! Could somebody please clarify the highlighted part. So does HAL plan to fulfill IAF's requirement of over 180 Choppers in like 36 years???

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@waz @Oscar @PARIKRAMA 
Can we have this thread merged with the LUH thread and get that to be sticky ?

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## ito

This is great news. Congrats to all Indians


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## Kinetic

Great!

5 choppers per year!! hahaha


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## proud_indian



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## kmc_chacko

AMCA said:


> *Raju had said that if everything went well the unit could be operational by 2017-18. It will have the initial capacity to build 3 tonne class and 10 tonne class of helicopters and will be able to build about five 3-tonne class of LUHs per year.*
> 
> Have I read it wrongly!! Gentlemen!! Could somebody please clarify the highlighted part. So does HAL plan to fulfill IAF's requirement of over 180 Choppers in like 36 years???

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## Mustang06

What is the current rate of production of Dhruvs?

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## R!CK

*HAL is looking at manufacturing around 120 helicopters every year. “Space at the existing plant where we are doing research and development, production, maintenance and overhaul of helicopters is saturated. We need to expand to create at least 60 LUHs, 30 LCHs and 30 ALHs per year. This is the anticipated production rate for expected and projected demand. This requires a new complex,” he said.*

http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...-Take-Off-Soon/2015/09/28/article3051103.ece1

P.S: This is the plan, Lets see what % of this is actually achieved.

Good Day!

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## kaykay

AMCA said:


> *Raju had said that if everything went well the unit could be operational by 2017-18. It will have the initial capacity to build 3 tonne class and 10 tonne class of helicopters and will be able to build about five 3-tonne class of LUHs per year.*
> 
> Have I read it wrongly!! Gentlemen!! Could somebody please clarify the highlighted part. So does HAL plan to fulfill IAF's requirement of over 180 Choppers in like 36 years???


Probably a typo or misinterpretation.....HAL manufacture around 35 Dhruv every year so I don't see why they can't do same with this.

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## Armani

The chopper's 6,500-meter service ceiling is probably it's biggest asset.

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## indiatester

AMCA said:


> *Raju had said that if everything went well the unit could be operational by 2017-18. It will have the initial capacity to build 3 tonne class and 10 tonne class of helicopters and will be able to build about five 3-tonne class of LUHs per year.*
> 
> Have I read it wrongly!! Gentlemen!! Could somebody please clarify the highlighted part. So does HAL plan to fulfill IAF's requirement of over 180 Choppers in like 36 years???





Kinetic said:


> Great!
> 
> 5 choppers per year!! hahaha





kmc_chacko said:


>



Too impatient... he said "initial capacity"
Well not good planning, but still....

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## CBU-105

no vids yet ?


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## proud_indian



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## migflug

from tejas fb

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## jha

proud_indian said:


>



Congrats to HAL. This Dhruv and derivatives are really coming along well.

Could have used different color scheme though.

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## R!CK

jha said:


> Could have used different color scheme though.



I guess its a combination of IN+IAF+IA color scheme since its the first prototype

Good Day!

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## jha

R!CK said:


> I guess its a combination of IN+IAF+IA color scheme since its the first prototype
> 
> Good Day!



Yes.. Seems so.

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## Kinetic

MP should totally scrap long delayed 197 LUH acquisition just like MRCA.


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## LOGICAL BOSSS

Published September 6, 2016
SOURCE: HAL PR






Achieving yet another significant milestone, HAL conducted a technical flight of indigenous Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) in Bengaluru, today. The helicopter lifted at 1210 hours and was in the air for 15 minutes at HAL facilities. The flawless flight was carried out by HAL test pilots.

This event marks an important and significant beginning for prototype testing of LUH. This is the third indigenous helicopter product from the stables of HAL after ALH and LCH. Apart from replacement of ageing fleet of Cheetah / Chetak, LUH is expected to capture a sizeable share both in domestic and international market.

*Light Utility Helicopter (LUH):*






The LUH has a maximum All-Up-Weight (AUW) of 3150 Kgs, fitted with Safran HE Ardiden-1U engine of 750 KW power, with a range of 350 Km, service ceiling 6.5 Km, seating capacity of six passengers plus two pilots. The helicopter is designed to carry out various utility roles such as reconnaissance, transport, cargo load and rescue operations. The helicopter can operate from sea level to high altitudes of Himalayas.

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## Ali Zadi

AMCA said:


> 180 Choppers in like 36 years???



Two words "Private players"

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## GORKHALI

LOGICAL BOSSS said:


> Published September 6, 2016
> SOURCE: HAL PR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Achieving yet another significant milestone, HAL conducted a technical flight of indigenous Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) in Bengaluru, today. The helicopter lifted at 1210 hours and was in the air for 15 minutes at HAL facilities. The flawless flight was carried out by HAL test pilots.
> 
> This event marks an important and significant beginning for prototype testing of LUH. This is the third indigenous helicopter product from the stables of HAL after ALH and LCH. Apart from replacement of ageing fleet of Cheetah / Chetak, LUH is expected to capture a sizeable share both in domestic and international market.
> 
> *Light Utility Helicopter (LUH):*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The LUH has a maximum All-Up-Weight (AUW) of 3150 Kgs, fitted with Safran HE Ardiden-1U engine of 750 KW power, with a range of 350 Km, service ceiling 6.5 Km, seating capacity of six passengers plus two pilots. The helicopter is designed to carry out various utility roles such as reconnaissance, transport, cargo load and rescue operations. The helicopter can operate from sea level to high altitudes of Himalayas.


Engine is underpowered ..If am not wrong it is not Shakti engine.


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## Aero

@PARIKRAMA @migflug
* What is under the tail? Do You know? 
*
Safran Tweet mentioning LUH engine Ardiden 1U


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/773186870243106817

------ Article ---------

The ground tests for the LUH took place in 2015, but the first flight were delayed due to certification issues in the software used in the chopper.
The chopper is powered by a Shakti engine made in collaboration with French company Turbomeca.
HAL will start manufacturing in 2018
_The 3.1-tonne helicopter, being built for the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force, will replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters_

The indigenously developed light utility helicopter took to the Bengaluru skies for the first time on Tuesday - it is a major milestone for the project as the test were being held back due to software-related hurdle.

The helicopter lifted at 1210 hours and was in the air for 15 minutes at HAL facilities, HAL officials confirmed to Asianet Newsable.

The 3.1-tonne helicopter being built for the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force will replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters.

The Indian military has a requirement for 384 helicopters of which 187 helicopters will be built by HAL.

In a statement HAL said, the maiden flight test was an important and significant beginning for prototype testing of LUH. This is the third indigenous helicopter product from the stables of HAL after ALH and LCH. Apart from replacement of ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak, LUH is expected to capture a sizeable share both in domestic and international market.

The ground tests for the LUH took place in 2015, but the first flight were delayed due to certification issues in the software used in the chopper. Since the LUH is classified as a military project, the developers were required to put up special encrypted software.

HAL will start manufacturing the choppers from 2018, after certifications and operational clearances are obtained. The chopper is powered by a Shakti engine made in collaboration with French company Turbomeca.

The LUH has a maximum All-Up-Weight (AUW) of 3150 Kgs, and has a seating capacity of six passengers plus two pilots. The helicopter is designed to carry out various utility roles such as reconnaissance, transport, cargo load and rescue operations. The helicopter can operate from sea level to high altitudes of Himalayas.

http://newsable.asianetnews.tv/india/built-light-utility-helicopter-bengaluru-hal

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## LOGICAL BOSSS

GORKHALI said:


> Engine is underpowered ..If am not wrong it is not Shakti engine.


Its powered by Powerplant 1 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti 1U turboshaft engine, 1,272 kW (1,706 hp)

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## GORKHALI

LOGICAL BOSSS said:


> Its powered by Powerplant 1 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti 1U turboshaft engine, 1,272 kW (1,706 hp)


Read the article...HAL official PR.


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## PARIKRAMA

@ni8mare
Finally..


Aero said:


> @PARIKRAMA @migflug
> * What is under the tail? Do You know?
> *
> Safran Tweet mentioning LUH engine Ardiden 1U
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/773186870243106817
> 
> ------ Article ---------
> 
> The ground tests for the LUH took place in 2015, but the first flight were delayed due to certification issues in the software used in the chopper.
> The chopper is powered by a Shakti engine made in collaboration with French company Turbomeca.
> HAL will start manufacturing in 2018
> _The 3.1-tonne helicopter, being built for the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force, will replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters_
> 
> The indigenously developed light utility helicopter took to the Bengaluru skies for the first time on Tuesday - it is a major milestone for the project as the test were being held back due to software-related hurdle.
> 
> The helicopter lifted at 1210 hours and was in the air for 15 minutes at HAL facilities, HAL officials confirmed to Asianet Newsable.
> 
> The 3.1-tonne helicopter being built for the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force will replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters.
> 
> The Indian military has a requirement for 384 helicopters of which 187 helicopters will be built by HAL.
> 
> In a statement HAL said, the maiden flight test was an important and significant beginning for prototype testing of LUH. This is the third indigenous helicopter product from the stables of HAL after ALH and LCH. Apart from replacement of ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak, LUH is expected to capture a sizeable share both in domestic and international market.
> 
> The ground tests for the LUH took place in 2015, but the first flight were delayed due to certification issues in the software used in the chopper. Since the LUH is classified as a military project, the developers were required to put up special encrypted software.
> 
> HAL will start manufacturing the choppers from 2018, after certifications and operational clearances are obtained. The chopper is powered by a Shakti engine made in collaboration with French company Turbomeca.
> 
> The LUH has a maximum All-Up-Weight (AUW) of 3150 Kgs, and has a seating capacity of six passengers plus two pilots. The helicopter is designed to carry out various utility roles such as reconnaissance, transport, cargo load and rescue operations. The helicopter can operate from sea level to high altitudes of Himalayas.
> 
> http://newsable.asianetnews.tv/india/built-light-utility-helicopter-bengaluru-hal



its for tail skid.. normally helos have a tail fin in this category. here the D shape is basically to protect it from hitting ground ..

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## Aero

PARIKRAMA said:


> @ni8mare
> Finally..
> 
> 
> its for tail skid.. normally helos have a tail fin in this category. here the D shape is basically to protect it from hitting ground ..


Tail Fin = Vertical stabilisers ?

It means its just because heli is in testing phase so will be removed when final production version will be there..

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## jha

LOGICAL BOSSS said:


> Published September 6, 2016
> SOURCE: HAL PR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Achieving yet another significant milestone, HAL conducted a technical flight of indigenous Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) in Bengaluru, today. The helicopter lifted at 1210 hours and was in the air for 15 minutes at HAL facilities. The flawless flight was carried out by HAL test pilots.
> 
> This event marks an important and significant beginning for prototype testing of LUH. This is the third indigenous helicopter product from the stables of HAL after ALH and LCH. Apart from replacement of ageing fleet of Cheetah / Chetak, LUH is expected to capture a sizeable share both in domestic and international market.
> 
> *Light Utility Helicopter (LUH):*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The LUH has a maximum All-Up-Weight (AUW) of 3150 Kgs, fitted with Safran HE Ardiden-1U engine of 750 KW power, with a range of 350 Km, service ceiling 6.5 Km, seating capacity of six passengers plus two pilots. The helicopter is designed to carry out various utility roles such as reconnaissance, transport, cargo load and rescue operations. The helicopter can operate from sea level to high altitudes of Himalayas.



This may see some success even in civilian side if the price is right.


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## Armani

Until now, I was thinking that the maximum number of LUHs that could be bought would be 384 (187+197), but according to this excerpt taken from Prasun K. Sengupta's latest article, the number is considerably higher :

" _the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) conducted the 15-minute-long maiden flight of its homegrown, multi-role, 3.15-tonne, single-engined Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), *440* of which are required for the three armed services of India (125 for the Air Force, 259 for the Army and 56 for the Navy) over the following decade._ "

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html

This implies that the 56-chopper Navy requirement (which I believed till now was reserved for twin-engine helos) for which choppers like Bell 429 were thought to compete for, would go to the single-engined LUH.

So has the twin-engine requirement been junked?

Your thoughts, please : @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer

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## migflug

*Homegrown LUH Takes To The Skies*




Yesterday, as Pakistan’s armed forces were celebrating their 51st ‘Youm-e-Difaa’ (National Defence Day), the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) conducted the 15-minute-long maiden flight of its homegrown, multi-role, 3.15-tonne, single-engined Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), 440 of which are required for the three armed services of India (125 for the Air Force, 259 for the Army and 56 for the Navy) over the following decade.



Yesterday’s LUH maiden flight was the culmination of seven years of R & D, this being indicative of a longer-than envisaged R & D period for the prototype. The MoD, it may be recalled, had sanctioned Rs. 376 crores for developing the LUH and HAL’s Rotary Wing Research & Design Centre (RWR & DC) began working on this project in February 2009. The MoD had then specified a target date for each of the LUH’ R & D milestones: building a full-scale mock-up; the design freeze; maiden flight; and attainment of Initial Operational Clearance (IOC). Back then, HAL had promised to freeze the LUH’s design by late 2010; conduct the maiden flight of the first prototype by 2012; obtain the certificate of airworthiness and IOC clearance by 2014, and begin delivery of series-production models by 2015.



But, as expected, none of those targetted milestones were met. The LUH’s design was frozen in only 2013 and its sole full-scale mock-up for evaluation and assessment was ready only by February 2015. Only after that did work begin on building a ground test vehicle (GTV) for design validation and testing of all dynamic systems, and the three projected flying prototypes for flight-tests and airworthiness certification. As of now, the revised milestones call for the flight-tests and airworthiness certification processes to be completed by 2019 at best, with IOC being targetted for 2021. All-in-all, therefore, a delay of six (06) years.



Such delayed attainment of the specified R & D milestones have been witnessed in case of the homegrown, 5.8-tonne light combat helicopter (LCH), work on which had begun at HAL’s RWR & DC way back on October 3, 2006 when the MoD sanctioned a sum of Rs.376.67 crores for HAL to design and develop the LCH over a 24-month period. Powered by twin Ardiden 1H (1,200shp TM333-2C2 Shakti) engines, the first LCH prototype—TD-1—completed its first ground-run on February 4, 2010 and its maiden flight was logged on March 29, 2010. 



Exactly a year later, the Indian Air Force (IAF) placed a production indent with HAL for procuring 64 LCHs. Three months later, the LCH’s second prototype, TD-2, made its maiden flight on June 28, 2011. The third prototype—TD-3—made its maiden flight on November 12, 2014, while the fourth and last prototype—TD-4—took to the skies on December 1, 2015.



The LCH was originally targetted in 2006 to achieve its IOC by 2013, but as of now, it has yet to complete its weapons-firing trials (due to delayed availability of the DRDO-developed HELINA IIR-guided ATGM) and its self-protection sensor suite (comprising radar warning receivers, laser warning receivers and missile approach warning system) has yet to be integrated with the airframe. IOC attainment now is not expected before the end of 2018. The estimated delay in milestone attainment is six (06) years as well. 



The LUH, powered by a single 750kW Turbomeca Ardiden 1U engine along with a HAL-developed main gearbox and a Turbomeca-designed transmission, will have a maximum all-up-weight of 3,150Kg, have a range of 350Km and service ceiling 6.5Km (21,300 feet), and a seating capacity of six passengers plus two pilots. The LUH, being multi-purpose, will carry out various roles such as armed reconnaissance, troop transport, CASEVAC, ferrying underslung cargo, search-and-rescue, and flying training.

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## randomradio

Armani said:


> Until now, I was thinking that the maximum number of LUHs that could be bought would be 384 (187+197), but according to this excerpt taken from Prasun K. Sengupta's latest article, the number is considerably higher :
> 
> " _the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) conducted the 15-minute-long maiden flight of its homegrown, multi-role, 3.15-tonne, single-engined Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), *440* of which are required for the three armed services of India (125 for the Air Force, 259 for the Army and 56 for the Navy) over the following decade._ "
> 
> http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html
> 
> This implies that the 56-chopper Navy requirement (which I believed till now was reserved for twin-engine helos) for which choppers like Bell 429 were thought to compete for, would go to the single-engined LUH.
> 
> So has the twin-engine requirement been junked?
> 
> Your thoughts, please : @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer



It's not junked. Enough number of twin engines are coming in from Russia through the Kamov GTG.

The navy's medium helicopter requirement is separate. It's not related to the LUH.

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## migflug

Just like the 5.5-tonne Dhruv ALH and LCH, the LUH will contain an avionics suite developed by HALBIT Avionics Pvt Ltd (HALBIT), which was created in May 2007 by Israel’s Elbit Systems, HAL and MerlinHawk Associates Pvt Ltd. The suite will include an: integrated AMLCD-based glass cockpit, a chin-mounted ‘Compass’ lightweight FLIR turret licence-assembled by the MoD-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd, a HAL-developed multi-bandwidth software-defined radio, and the Colour ANVIS NVG night vision goggle. The self-protection sensor suite, supplied by Sweden’s SaabTech (and identical to those installed on the LCH and the ‘Rudra’ helicopter-gunship version of the Dhruv Mk.4 ALH), will be installed and integrated by HALBIT.



In addition, several force-multiplier options are on the table for incorporation, since a low-flying LUH will be especially vulnerable to threats such as difficult terrain, enemy fire and the intersection of utility wires in the flight path, and will therefore often be required to operate in a Degraded Visual Environment (DVE), adding to the already heavy workload and leaving flight crews to rely on NVGs to accomplish their mission. Factors limiting the pilots’ FOV include: complete darkness, poor weather conditions, brownouts, whiteouts and sandstorms. 



To overcome such shortcomings and limitations, Elbit Systems’ BrightNite solution is now available. BrightNite enables utility helicopters of all types to successfully perform DVE missions in more than 90% of night-flying situations, providing them with piloting capabilities of attack helicopters.



Lightweight and compact, BrightNite is a multi-spectral end-to-end panoramic piloting solution that delivers the essential data directly to both eyes of the pilot, enabling intuitive flight in a head-up, eyes-out orientation in pitch dark and other DVE conditions. For helicopters like the Rudra and LUH, this unique solution comprises a FLIR turret and highly sensitive Complementary Metal-Oxide Semiconductor (CMOS) sensors that present an ultra-wide field-of-regard intuitive image to a display system that projects into the ANVIS helmet-mounted NVG. The display is overlaid by a synthetic layer that follows the contours of the landscape and a third layer of 3-D conformal symbology, which displays hazards, mission-conformal symbology and tactical data. Multiple crew-members can simultaneously scan the entire field-of-regard, using a single sensor and the synthetic world, thereby enabling them to fly in common line-of-sight.



Like the Dhruv/Rudra and the LCH, the LUH too adheres to the following FAR/MILSPEC standards:



* US Army Aeronautical Design Standard-33E (ADS-33E)



* Flaw-Tolerant Rotor System: FAR/JAR 29.571, AM 29-28

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## migflug

* Crashworthy Fuel System: FAR/JAR 29.952, AM 29-35



* Flaw-Tolerant Drive Train with Over-Torque Certification: FAR/JAR 29.952, AM 29-28



* Turbine Burst Protection: FAR/JAR 29.901, AM 29-36



* Composite Spar Main & Tail Rotor Blades with lightning strike protection: FAR/JAR 1309(h), AM 29-40



* Engine Compartment Fire Protection: FAR/JAR 29.1193



* Redundant Hydraulics & Flaw Tolerant Flight Controls: FAR/JAR 29.571, AM 29-28



* Aircraft-Wide Bird Strike Protection: FAR/JAR 29.631, AM 29-40



* Crashworthiness Standard: NATO’s MIL-STD-1290
* Crashworthy Seats conforming to MIL-STD-1472B
* Cockpit Instrumentation Lighting Conforming to MIL-STD-85762A
* Avionics Databus: MIL-STD-1553B or ARINC-429
* Autopilot Accuracy: MIL-F-9490D
* Embedded MIL-STD-188-141B ALE Link Protection

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## migflug

* Embedded MIL-STD-188-110B data modem



When operating as an armed aeroscout platform for battlespace surveillance, the LUH will be armed with twin rocket pods housing 2.75-inch rockets supplied by Belgium’s FZ, and four Mistral ATAM air-to-air missiles from MBDA.



Series-production of the LUH will be undertaken at a greenfield facility set up by HAL at BiderehallaKaval, Gubbi Taluk, Tumakuru, about 70km from Bengaluru. The foundation stone for this facility was laid on January 3, 2016 by India*’s *Prime Minister Narendra Modi. 



For radically improving the LUH’s hot-and-high operating parameters and enhancing flight safety, an option that could well be utilised in future under the auspices of the US-India Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI), under which HAL will be required to form an industrial partnership with US-based AVX Aircraft Company for incorporating the latter’s patented modification kit into the LUH’s airframe.



With its unique blend of co-axial rotors and dual ducted-fans, the AVX kit offers greater aerodynamic and fuel efficiency, speed, range, payload, improved hover-out-of-ground effect (HOGE), and the ability to operate in hotter temperatures and at higher altitudes than any of today’s conventional light helicopters. It also reduces brown-out conditions in the landing configuration since, thanks to the ducted-fans, the helicopter can use a 5-degree nose-down or even-level approach to the landing zone. This increases flight safety by giving the pilot a greatly improved view of the landing zone.








http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html

its difficult to copy prasun's blog with so many pics

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## Armani

randomradio said:


> It's not junked. Enough number of twin engines are coming in from Russia through the Kamov GTG.



You mean for the Navy?



> The navy's medium helicopter requirement is separate. It's not related to the LUH.



Ofcourse the 10-ton class (S-70B) and 12-ton class (H225M or CH148) NMRH requirements are separate. But I was talking about the smaller utility helicopter tender for which the Bell 429 was thought to be considered at one point.

When questioned why the indigenous LUH could not fulfill that role, the prevailing argument was that LUH, being single-engined, is not ideal for maritime roles.

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## randomradio

Armani said:


> You mean for the Navy?



For the navy? No.



> Ofcourse the 10-ton class (S-70B) and 12-ton class (H225M or CH148) NMRH requirements are separate. But I was talking about the smaller utility helicopter tender for which the Bell 429 was thought to be considered at one point.
> 
> When questioned why the indigenous LUH could not fulfill that role, the prevailing argument was that LUH, being single-engined, is not ideal for maritime roles.



The requirement for helicopters are-
IA - 259
IAF - 125
IN - 100
Tot = 484

IA and IAF will get 187 HAL LUH and 197 Ka-226T.
IN will get a different helicopter, the tender is yet to start.

Sengupta is behind times. He is referring to the naval tender for 56 utility helicopters from 2012, but that's changed to 100 now.

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## PARIKRAMA

Armani said:


> Until now, I was thinking that the maximum number of LUHs that could be bought would be 384 (187+197), but according to this excerpt taken from Prasun K. Sengupta's latest article, the number is considerably higher :
> 
> " _the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) conducted the 15-minute-long maiden flight of its homegrown, multi-role, 3.15-tonne, single-engined Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), *440* of which are required for the three armed services of India (125 for the Air Force, 259 for the Army and 56 for the Navy) over the following decade._ "
> 
> http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html
> 
> This implies that the 56-chopper Navy requirement (which I believed till now was reserved for twin-engine helos) for which choppers like Bell 429 were thought to compete for, would go to the single-engined LUH.
> 
> So has the twin-engine requirement been junked?
> 
> Your thoughts, please : @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer


Tender is junked for the 56 ones.. it was the one in which Agusta and Eurocopter responded..

That has been now changed. See here is the original which has been modified now






https://defence.pk/threads/hal-luh-updates-and-discussions.347568/page-6#post-8659781

187+197+56 = 440

here its marked as 50 - naval twin engine helicopter..and respondents were Eurocopter and Agusta.

Besides the forces the private sector requirement for LUH stands easily at another 300+ so all in all it will touch superb numbers once HAL can get it produced properly and maintain descent production rate from its plant

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## Dandpatta

Anyone here has a COMPARITIVE SCHEMATIC (sideview / frontview / top view) of the DHRUV and LUH? Thanks in advance.


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## Aero

@Dandpatta
LUH seem to be a leaner version of Dhruv
See the position of Vertical/Horizontal Stabilizers. 
LUH (Side)





Dhruv





Front
Dhruv

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## SOHEIL



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## Abingdonboy

GuardianRED said:


> Excellent
> 
> But then this isn't the Official Flight ! ...yes?


"Official" flights are always made some time after the first atual flight. The LUH has been flying for a few weeks already in reality.



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Good.
> 
> I really feel that the production should not be given to HAL alone. Get a private party too.
> 
> Means one line from HAL and other from private sector. For Dhruv, LCH, LUH and LCA.


To be fair, the ALH, LCH and LUH are all in-house products from HAL and are major success stories that are the result of their own R&D efforts. The ALH is now being churned out at a healthy rate (25-30+/year) and it has been continuously refined over the years (Mk.1/2/3/Rudra) and any issues gradually rectified. HAL don't deserve to have this portfolio torn out of their hands unless they are themselves looking to outsource their helo division to the private sector.

The LCA is another matter of course.


AMCA said:


> *Raju had said that if everything went well the unit could be operational by 2017-18. It will have the initial capacity to build 3 tonne class and 10 tonne class of helicopters and will be able to build about five 3-tonne class of LUHs per year.*
> 
> Have I read it wrongly!! Gentlemen!! Could somebody please clarify the highlighted part. So does HAL plan to fulfill IAF's requirement of over 180 Choppers in like 36 years???





Kinetic said:


> Great!
> 
> 5 choppers per year!! hahaha


I don't know what the reporter is smoking but the installed capacity of HAL's new Tumakuru plant is 60 LUH/year.

What's interesting is that the plant is also being lined up for the IMRH's production in the future if you believe what is written here (10 ton class helo).



Kinetic said:


> MP should totally scrap long delayed 197 LUH acquisition just like MRCA.


That's a bone given to the Russians but neither side seems to be pushing too hard. Now the LUH is on track I see little reason to keep the Russians hanging on, HAL clearly isn't interested in producing the Ka-226.



Armani said:


> Until now, I was thinking that the maximum number of LUHs that could be bought would be 384 (187+197), but according to this excerpt taken from Prasun K. Sengupta's latest article, the number is considerably higher :
> 
> " _the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) conducted the 15-minute-long maiden flight of its homegrown, multi-role, 3.15-tonne, single-engined Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), *440* of which are required for the three armed services of India (125 for the Air Force, 259 for the Army and 56 for the Navy) over the following decade._ "
> 
> http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html
> 
> This implies that the 56-chopper Navy requirement (which I believed till now was reserved for twin-engine helos) for which choppers like Bell 429 were thought to compete for, would go to the single-engined LUH.
> 
> So has the twin-engine requirement been junked?
> 
> Your thoughts, please : @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy @Water Car Engineer


The IN has no plans to induct the HAL LUH and it is the IA and IAF who are working with HAL for the LUH, the IN is looking for a foreign product to meet their needs, the 56 twin engined NLUHs has NOT been junked. In fact, the NLUH is progressing with private players (TATA for the Bell 429 and Mahindra for the Panther) tying up with foreign OEMs to make bids to the IN soon.

In fact, the IA and IAF's combined LUH requirement is around 600 units. I have always said there was game played by the MoD to keep all sides happy (armed forces and HAL)- the total LUH requirement was split 200 (aprx), 200 (aprx), 200 (aprx) with the first third (197) going to a foreign RSH that could be inducted swiftly to cover the IA/IAF immediate needs(that was the plan anyway), 187 to HAL for their LUH and then a decsion would be made between these two which product would be ordered for the outstanding 200 or so depending on their performance in service. Of course Anthony's MoD truly screwed up these plans (twice cancelling the RSH procurement and stalling it until 2014) and Parrikar put the final nail in the coffin by cancelling the RSH procurement and entering into a G-G deal with the L2 bidder (Kamov).

It is more than possible that HAL gets a lion's share of the 600 requirement now (if not all of it) as they have now flight tested their product before the foreign RSH has even been ordered and are constructing their own production line before land for such a plant has even been scouted for in India. If the Ka-226 is still ordered it will 100% be a poltical decsion at this point. Certainly, HAL is well placed to make good on the armed forces' requirements by ensuring their new helo plant will have an installed capacity to churn out 60 LUH/year.

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## proud_indian

But, as expected, none of those targetted milestones were met. The LUH’s design was frozen in only 2013 and its sole full-scale mock-up for evaluation and assessment was ready only by February 2015. Only after that did work begin on building a ground test vehicle (GTV) for design validation and testing of all dynamic systems, and the three projected flying prototypes for flight-tests and airworthiness certification. *As of now, the revised milestones call for the flight-tests and airworthiness certification processes to be completed by 2019 at best, with IOC being targetted for 2021. All-in-all, therefore, a delay of six (06) years.*

*http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html*

*@Abingdonboy*

*Do you think we can wait for this long?*

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## mkb95

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't know what the reporter is smoking but the installed capacity of HAL's new Tumakuru plant is 60 LUH/year.


12*5=60
so basically it was 5 per month got misprinted as 5 per year.
edit-why is this thread is merged with lch thread when there is a separate thread for luh?

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## Perpendicular



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## GuardianRED

Perpendicular said:


>


Thanks. Looks great - but that is a weird flight plan? TESTing?


----------



## wiseone2

shchinese said:


> Arjun failed.
> LCA is going to be declared as a failure in months.
> LCH? that will just be another failure.



Why are they failures ??



Han Patriot said:


> Yes, my Indian genius, what makes you think the Z-10 does not have good avionics? And I already repeated many times, nobody knows the weight of the Z-10, but it was created to counter the Apache. So it was meant to be in the same class as Apache.
> 
> Yet by your logic this 'thin' LCH can complement so much avionics, so light and with such a powerful engine that even the Apache cannot match it. Funny that you are buying Apache. The same logics in LCA.



The L in LCH stands for light. Apache is heavy attack helicopter. The IAF is buying Apaches because they cannot make engines for heavy helicopters among other things.

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## Abingdonboy

Perpendicular said:


>


Beautiful. 

@PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Armani @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 002 

I think the LUH has the potential to change the face of India's (rotary wing) aviation sector. Leaving aside the military applications (taking that as read), a single engined low cost local LUH can have a transformational effect for applications such as HEMS (that are just starting to scale up in India), police duties, supporting civil projects, transporting executives etc etc. 

Until now the ALH being a twin engined (light) medium class helo has been out of reach for most of ease roles as it is simply overkill and thusly expensive for most civilian mainland operations stated above. In most developed nations it is the single engined LUH that is most prolific and finally India has its own solution. 

The HAL LUH can be to India what the Bell 407 was to the US. 



GuardianRED said:


> Thanks. Looks great - but that is a weird flight plan? TESTing?


For demonstration purposes (on the occasion of the first flight). A hover like this is actually rather taxing as compared to a standard flight profile. It shows how confident HAL's test team are in the bird.



Aero said:


> @Dandpatta
> LUH seem to be a leaner version of Dhruv
> See the position of Vertical/Horizontal Stabilizers.
> LUH (Side)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dhruv
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Front
> Dhruv


Indeed, the LUH is based on the ALH (as is the LCH) but crucially is single engined and significantly lighter (3 tons vs 5.5). 

The ALH's success truly has been fully exploited by HAL and leveraged for other projects. Truly hats off to them. 


Next they will build on this success for the 10 ton IMRH.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Tender is junked for the 56 ones.. it was the one in which Agusta and Eurocopter responded..
> 
> That has been now changed. See here is the original which has been modified now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/hal-luh-updates-and-discussions.347568/page-6#post-8659781
> 
> 187+197+56 = 440
> 
> here its marked as 50 - naval twin engine helicopter..and respondents were Eurocopter and Agusta.
> 
> Besides the forces the private sector requirement for LUH stands easily at another 300+ so all in all it will touch superb numbers once HAL can get it produced properly and maintain descent production rate from its plant


Bro, the IN is still proceeding with their 56 twin engined NLUH, the HAL LUH has no baring on this. 

Airbus and Bell are vying it out for the NLUH.

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## Aero

Abingdonboy said:


> such as HEMS (that are just starting to scale up in India),


For HEMS, i think if it is budget friendly & economical to operate it will be boon to medicals services as due to our traffic conditions many times Ambulances get stuck in traffic so an Air Ambulance will be very good.

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## Abingdonboy

proud_indian said:


> But, as expected, none of those targetted milestones were met. The LUH’s design was frozen in only 2013 and its sole full-scale mock-up for evaluation and assessment was ready only by February 2015. Only after that did work begin on building a ground test vehicle (GTV) for design validation and testing of all dynamic systems, and the three projected flying prototypes for flight-tests and airworthiness certification. *As of now, the revised milestones call for the flight-tests and airworthiness certification processes to be completed by 2019 at best, with IOC being targetted for 2021. All-in-all, therefore, a delay of six (06) years.*
> 
> *http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/09/homegrown-luh-takes-to-skies.html*
> 
> *@Abingdonboy*
> 
> *Do you think we can wait for this long?*


Production will begin in 2020.


Can India wait 4 years? It will have to but the upgraded/re-engined Cheetal and Cheetan will take some of the pressure off. The wait will be worth it though.



Aero said:


> For HEMS, i think if it is budget friendly & economical to operate it will be boon to medicals services as due to our traffic conditions many times Ambulances get stuck in traffic so an Air Ambulance will be very good.


Exactly right. The civilian sector (much more than the military field) are extremely cost sensitive so the LUH that will be mass produced in India with full Through life support IN INDIA will offer far more attractive life cycle costs for all operators than any foreign OEM could possibly offer today.

Right now HEMS in India are making use of imported Airbus helos, no doubt the LUH will be able to significantly undercut them.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Abingdonboy said:


> Beautiful.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Armani @MilSpec @Ankit Kumar 002
> 
> I think the LUH has the potential to change the face of India's (rotary wing) aviation sector. Leaving aside the military applications (taking that as read), a single engined low cost local LUH can have a transformational effect for applications such as HEMS (that are just starting to scale up in India), police duties, supporting civil projects, transporting executives etc etc.
> 
> Until now the ALH being a twin engined (light) medium class helo has been out of reach for most of ease roles as it is simply overkill and thusly expensive for most civilian mainland operations stated above. In most developed nations it is the single engined LUH that is most prolific and finally India has its own solution.
> 
> The HAL LUH can be to India what the Bell 407 was to the US.
> 
> 
> For demonstration purposes (on the occasion of the first flight). A hover like this is actually rather taxing as compared to a standard flight profile. It shows how confident HAL's test team are in the bird.
> 
> 
> Indeed, the LUH is based on the ALH (as is the LCH) but crucially is single engined and significantly lighter (3 tons vs 5.5).
> 
> The ALH's success truly has been fully exploited by HAL and leveraged for other projects. Truly hats off to them.
> 
> 
> Next they will build on this success for the 10 ton IMRH.
> 
> 
> Bro, the IN is still proceeding with their 56 twin engined NLUH, the HAL LUH has no baring on this.
> 
> Airbus and Bell are vying it out for the NLUH.



Regarding Naval Light Utility Helicopter , the number is projected to be 120 in an expected new RFI( Tender for 56 were cancelled and a RFI for " 100 Plus NLUH" was issued for which an RFP was supposed to be issued, but it seems a fresh RFI will be issued , as when Modi visited France , the meeting between business CEOs and Modi had except Rafales , mention about 123 Naval Multirole Helicopters and 120 NLUH ). Panther and Bell offering are front runners. Sadly we won't see Wildcat running for this ....

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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Regarding Naval Light Utility Helicopter , the number is projected to be 120 in an expected new RFI. Panther and Bell offering are front runners. Sadly we won't see Wildcat running for this ....


The Bell 429 and Panther are easily more preferable than the Wildcat that has seen only limited export success.

My personal preference would be the Panther as it has extensive service history in India (Pawan Hans) and Airbus are investing heavily in India.

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## anant_s



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## Dandpatta

Rudra looks rude....


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## PARIKRAMA

* ✈Anantha Krishnan M ✈* ‏@writetake  7h7 hours ago
Been a while spotted a #Rudra. Here's one snapped by #Tarmak007 follower Ashutosh Baghel, a software professional.

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## R!CK

@PARIKRAMA can we rename this thread to Indian Armed Forces - Attack helicopters ?

Good Day

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## PARIKRAMA

R!CK said:


> @PARIKRAMA can we rename this thread to Indian Armed Forces - Attack helicopters ?
> 
> Good Day


Actually opening post of the thread says about LCH only. So thats the issue atm.

I was in fact requesting the change like 

Its title is -
*HAL LCH| Updates and Discussions*

Can we make it -
*Indian Helicopters - News, Updates,Discussions*

That way it can cover all helos like Dhruv, LCH, ALH, LUH to even new procurement ones like Ka226 or say in future ones like apache, chinook, S70B or any other Helicopter .. 

Basically a pure dedicated Helicopter thread for all news and discussion collation.

Had requested mods to review and perhaps suggest as i am not requesting for one more dedicated thread owing to news and updates being much limited in nature. This renamed thread itself should do more than enough and justifiably, helicopters helps cover a much wider topic in here.

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## indiatester

PARIKRAMA said:


> Actually opening post of the thread says about LCH only. So thats the issue atm.
> 
> I was in fact requesting the change like
> 
> Its title is -
> *HAL LCH| Updates and Discussions*
> 
> Can we make it -
> *Indian Helicopters - News, Updates,Discussions*
> 
> That way it can cover all helos like Dhruv, LCH, ALH, LUH to even new procurement ones like Ka226 or say in future ones like apache, chinook, S70B or any other Helicopter ..
> 
> Basically a pure dedicated Helicopter thread for all news and discussion collation.
> 
> Had requested mods to review and perhaps suggest as i am not requesting for one more dedicated thread owing to news and updates being much limited in nature. This renamed thread itself should do more than enough and justifiably, helicopters helps cover a much wider topic in here.



Have the armed forces evolved executing different scenarios (attack, defense, evac) etc with these air assets? I would love to know what they have learnt and how the requirements have changed.

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## 4GTejasBVR

PARIKRAMA said:


> * ✈Anantha Krishnan M ✈* ‏@writetake  7h7 hours ago
> Been a while spotted a #Rudra. Here's one snapped by #Tarmak007 follower Ashutosh Baghel, a software professional.


Rudra nowadays roaming with rocket pods

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## migflug



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## Foxbat Alok



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## migflug



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## Water Car Engineer



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## Gessler

migflug said:


>



What is this? Looks like a MAWS/LWR aperture...but I don't remember seeing this before...


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## Water Car Engineer

Gessler said:


> What is this? Looks like a MAWS/LWR aperture...but I don't remember seeing this before...




Laser warning receivers, it's always been there in Rudras, now in the latest Dhruvs.

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## GoodKnight

Foxbat Alok said:


>



Its a fantastic image to help us understand which cameo is the best and makes the helicopter almost invisible.


----------



## Water Car Engineer



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## proud_indian

Water Car Engineer said:


>



full episode here
http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/wal...-team-of-hindustan-aeronautics-limited-435005

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## Agent_47

Water Car Engineer said:


>


LOL, 'mirage like aircrafts are too soft for them.' (Russian made aircraft pilots)

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


>





proud_indian said:


> full episode here
> http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/wal...-team-of-hindustan-aeronautics-limited-435005





Agent_47 said:


> LOL, 'mirage like aircrafts are too soft for them.' (Russian made aircraft pilots)






















Updates from HAL:

- >200 (and counting) ALH "Dhruv" in service in India
- Rudra production in full swing, 65 units ordered by the IAF to date and 97 for the IA: check out some of the IA Rudras lined up awaiting delivery (in black in the background):
















-----
-----




























- Full flight testing prgram of LCH complete
-Weapons testing program now underway
- TD-4 design modifications specifically to reduce RCS
- First SQN of LCH to be ready for the IA by 2018 (orders for LCH not yet disclosed)



@PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar 002 @Vergennes @Taygibay @Levina @randomradio @SpArK @nair @MilSpec @anant_s @Koovie @Echo_419 @Joe Shearer @arp2041 @Star Wars @ranjeet @Roybot @hellfire @ito @dadeechi @sathya @IndoCarib @Sky lord @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @Unknowncommando @Armani @litefire @Bombaywalla @Skull and Bones @Omega007 @XiNiX @AMCA @SRP @Oscar @waz

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## Skull and Bones

Abingdonboy said:


> - Full flight testing prgram of LCH complete
> -Weapons testing program now underway
> - TD-4 design modifications specifically to reduce RCS
> - First SQN of LCH to be ready for the IA by 2018 (orders for LCH not yet disclosed)



Once you get the first step right, the subsequent products much take significant time to develop. Hopefully we are working on a Mi-17 class category of helicopters.

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## Abingdonboy

Skull and Bones said:


> Once you get the first step right, the subsequent products much take significant time to develop. Hopefully we are working on a Mi-17 class category of helicopters.



Very true, from the very solid base the ALH has provided HAL have been very successful in expanding their abilities and portfolio therafter. Give Indian entities and talent the time and resources and they are able to compete with the best that's for sure. Look at where the HAL rotary division was 10 years ago and where they are now, truly spectacular. 

+ HAL's 10 ton IMRH will be given the offcial go ahead within the next 36 months, as of now only preliminary deisgn work has been conducted.

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## Agent_47

Abingdonboy said:


> + HAL's 10 ton IMRH will be given the offcial go ahead within the next 36 months, as of now only preliminary deisgn work has been conducted.


It will be 12.5 ton.

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## Abingdonboy

Agent_47 said:


> It will be 12.5 ton.


Are you sure bro? I've heard the IMRH will for sure be in the range of 10-13 tons but have no clue if the final specs are known as of yet.

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## Agent_47

Abingdonboy said:


> Are you sure bro? I've heard the IMRH will for sure be in the range of 10-13 tons but have no clue if the final specs are known as of yet.


They started with 10 ton idea but after consultations with forces they settled for 12.5-13 ton helicopter. I remember hearing this during some aero india seminar presentation video.

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## Hulk

Abingdonboy said:


> Updates from HAL:
> 
> - >200 (and counting) ALH "Dhruv" in service in India
> - Rudra production in full swing, 65 units ordered by the IAF to date and 97 for the IA: check out some of the IA Rudras lined up awaiting delivery (in black in the background):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> -----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Full flight testing prgram of LCH complete
> -Weapons testing program now underway
> - TD-4 design modifications specifically to reduce RCS
> - First SQN of LCH to be ready for the IA by 2018 (orders for LCH not yet disclosed)
> 
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar 002 @Vergennes @Taygibay @Levina @randomradio @SpArK @nair @MilSpec @anant_s @Koovie @Echo_419 @Joe Shearer @arp2041 @Star Wars @ranjeet @Roybot @hellfire @ito @dadeechi @sathya @IndoCarib @Sky lord @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @Unknowncommando @Armani @litefire @Bombaywalla @Skull and Bones @Omega007 @XiNiX @AMCA @SRP @Oscar @waz


@Abingdonboy What role difference we have between Rudra and LCH?


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## Taygibay

Agent_47 said:


> LOL, 'mirage like aircrafts are too soft for them.' (Russian made aircraft pilots)



And a scalpel is too tiny for blacksmithing.
To paint a room, average guy with this



does fine.
But you need a special guy with this



to paint details
like these



​Bragging about your preference for blunt instruments is fine I guess,
but by such metrics, we'd still be bludgeoning each other with clubs.

Go Mirage 2000 I & TI jockeys, Go! Tay.

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## sathya

Taygibay said:


> And a scalpel is too tiny for blacksmithing.
> To paint a room, average guy with this
> View attachment 343668
> does fine.
> But you need a special guy with this
> View attachment 343672
> to paint details
> like these
> View attachment 343673
> ​Bragging about your preference for blunt instruments is fine I guess,
> but by such metrics, we'd still be bludgeoning each other with clubs.
> 
> Go Mirage 2000 I & TI jockeys, Go! Tay.




Everyone here knows Mirage were the IAF favourites..
No need tO equate soft with anything inferior..

--------------

I was surprised when pilot mentioned Meteor is too long for Lca

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## Chanakyaa

Abingdonboy said:


> Very true, from the very solid base the ALH has provided HAL have been very successful in expanding their abilities and portfolio therafter. Give Indian entities and talent the time and resources and they are able to compete with the best that's for sure. Look at where the HAL rotary division was 10 years ago and where they are now, truly spectacular.
> 
> + HAL's 10 ton IMRH will be given the offcial go ahead within the next 36 months, as of now only preliminary deisgn work has been conducted.



Awesome. ALH ( And the Family > LUH , ALH and LCH ) has been an wonderful journey so far. A Perfect exmaple why the First step is necessary, even if its long.. hard and costly.

IM sure Tejas story wont be different either.



Hulk said:


> @Abingdonboy What role difference we have between Rudra and LCH?



IMHO, Rudra is for Army ( Army Aviation ), LCh is fr IAF.

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## ni8mare

Abingdonboy said:


> + HAL's 10 ton IMRH will be given the offcial go ahead within the next 36 months, as of now only preliminary deisgn work has been conducted.





Agent_47 said:


> They started with 10 ton idea but after consultations with forces they settled for 12.5-13 ton helicopter. I remember hearing this during some aero india seminar presentation video.


Is this news is true ....any more detail will be appreciated


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## Hulk

XiNiX said:


> Awesome. ALH ( And the Family > LUH , ALH and LCH ) has been an wonderful journey so far. A Perfect exmaple why the First step is necessary, even if its long.. hard and costly.
> 
> IM sure Tejas story wont be different either.
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, Rudra is for Army ( Army Aviation ), LCh is fr IAF.


You have to break up for me, trying to imagine where I will deploy what and for what role.


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## Abingdonboy

XiNiX said:


> IMHO, Rudra is for Army ( Army Aviation ), LCh is fr IAF.


Not quite bro, both the IA and IAF have orders for the Rudra AND LCH. As noted above, the IAF has 65 Rudras on order and the IA 97 whilst the IAF has commited to an initial purchase of 75 LCH and the IA for 114 LCH.



Hulk said:


> @Abingdonboy What role difference we have between Rudra and LCH?


The differences were articulated (breifly) in the video. The Rudra is a multirole armed helo that can transport men and materials whilst the LCH is a pure attack helo. So the Rudra can be used for CASEVAC (primarily what the IAF is buying their Rudras for by the way) or SHBO but the LCH is optimised to fight and entirey designed as an attack platform with greater survivability, greater weapon carrying ability and more agility.

The LCH is only at the very start of its development cycle, expect it to be further honed for its attack role as it finds its operational niche when in service.

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## Gessler

Abingdonboy said:


> ...greater survivability, greater weapon carrying ability and more agility.



...and greater altitude (service ceiling).

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## Joe Shearer

Abingdonboy said:


> Very true, from the very solid base the ALH has provided HAL have been very successful in expanding their abilities and portfolio therafter. Give Indian entities and talent the time and resources and they are able to compete with the best that's for sure. Look at where the HAL rotary division was 10 years ago and where they are now, truly spectacular.
> 
> + HAL's 10 ton IMRH will be given the offcial go ahead within the next 36 months, as of now only preliminary deisgn work has been conducted.



The credit goes almost entirely to Ashok Baweja, from the time that he was director in charge of rotary wing division.

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## fockewulf190

Gessler said:


> What is this? Looks like a MAWS/LWR aperture...but I don't remember seeing this before...


That house the MAWS, LWR and RWR. The same is mounted on the nose and above the cockpit bubble.

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## Water Car Engineer

*HAL LCH TD4, with LCA

Looks like TD4 has slightly more coverage at the exhaust than TD3. The additional inlet looks different as well now.




*
_*TD3*_

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## Indo-Pak

Abingdonboy said:


> Not quite bro, both the IA and IAF have orders for the Rudra AND LCH. As noted above, the IAF has 65 Rudras on order and the IA 97 whilst the IAF has commited to an initial purchase of 75 LCH and the IA for 114 LCH.




So in future there will be no light attack helo imports... Good achievement by India.. 

Hope same happen on heavy lift Helos as well


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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Now THAT is a glorious pic for oh so many reasons  

@PARIKRAMA @Levina @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Vergennes @Taygibay @Parul @Chanakya's_Chant @Oscar @dadeechi @waz @acetophenol @Bombaywalla @Nilgiri 



Indo-Pak said:


> So in future there will be no light attack helo imports... Good achievement by India..
> 
> Hope same happen on heavy lift Helos as well


There is no other light attack helo India has looked at.

A heavy lift attack helo will be a natural progression of HAL's rotary wing but it will be about a decade before any such helo is flying.

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## jha

Water Car Engineer said:


> *HAL LCH TD4, with LCA
> 
> Looks like TD4 has slightly more coverage at the exhaust than TD3. The additional inlet looks different as well now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> _*TD3*_



Too good. Waiting for induction now.

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## #hydra#

What happened to @PARIKRAMA ?he is not showing up
..


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## itachii

#hydra# said:


> What happened to @PARIKRAMA ?he is not showing up
> ..



He moved to Indiandefence.com.

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## #hydra#

itachii said:


> He moved to Indiandefence.com.


What's his user name over there?


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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> What's his user name over there?


The same as it is here

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## Abingdonboy

By the way, HAL has begun lmited series production of the LCH, 5 will LSP units will be produced in 2016.

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## Water Car Engineer

*LCH TD1 with Dhruv Mark 3*

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## MilSpec

#hydra# said:


> What's his user name over there?


same.

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## Foxbat Alok

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited starts series production of the Light Combat Helicopter


Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the Indian state-owned aerospace and defence company, will start series production of new Light Combat helicopter (LCH). That was reported by timesofindia.indiatimes.com.

HAL has started limited series production and intends to manufacture five LCH helicopters.

“LCH is ready, we are integrating its weapons, we tried rockets and it was good, we need to try missiles ATGM – anti-tank guided missile, (these) are the ones which we are integrating and we just have to demonstrate that,” chairman HAL Suvarna Raju said.

HAL carried out hot and high-altitude trials of the third prototype of the indigenously developed attack chopper with the participation of pilots from the Indian Air Force and Army.

The light combat helicopter (LCH) was designed and built by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL). It is an attack helicopter.

The LCH was developed to meet the requirements of the Indian Air Force and the Indian Army, who have ordered 62 and 114 units respectively. Its maiden flight took place in Bangalore in March 2010.

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## Papa Dragon

India’s Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), currently under development by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for service in the Indian Army (IA) and Indian Air Force (IAF) is undergoing weapons integration, according to media reports.

“LCH is ready, we are integrating its weapons, we tried rockets and it was good, we need to try missiles ATGM — anti-tank guided missile, (these) are the ones which we are integrating and we just have to demonstrate that,” the chairman of HAL, Suvarnu Raja told _The Times of India_.

HAL has so far been extensively testing four LCH prototypes. The third LCH helicopter recently completed hot and high altitude trials at Leh in Jammu and Kashmir. The LCH prototypes have been undergoing extensive weapons trials beginning in July, as I reported elsewhere 

An LCH prototype also successfully fired 70 millimeter rockets during the 2016 iteration of the IAF’s Iron Fist military exercise held in March in the Thar Desert in Pokhran, Rajasthan in northwestern India. “The flight trials were successful with respect to system integration, structural integrity, noise and vibration, functionality of system and safe separation of rockets,” Indian Minister of State for Defense Rao Inderjit Singh told the Indian Parliament in May, in reference to the helicopter’s performance during Iron Fist.

_The armored attack helicopter’s weapon suite includes a 20 millimeter French Giat-Nexter turret gun, four Belgium-made 70 mm anti-tank guided missiles (or, once operational, the Indian Helina anti-tank missile, which is still in development), and MBDA Mistral-2 air-to-air missiles. SAAB South Africa is providing the LCH’s electronic warfare suite._

Speaking to the_ Times of India_, Raja also revealed that HAL is undertaking limited serial production of the LCH. “We have launched a limited series production, with a confidence and hope that we get definite orders on this. We have also inquiries on this platform from other countries, and so we will start making five helicopters this year,” Raju said.

The Indian Army’s Army Aviation Corps (AAC) has expressed its intention of acquiring 114 helicopters and the IAF 65. However, no contract has been signed so far. “It has to turn into a contract between the Services and HAL,” according to Raju.

The history of the LCH project goes back to the lack of an adequate light helicopter gunship during the 1999 Kargil War:

_The LCH, which made its maiden flight in May 2010, has been specifically developed in response to the lack of an attack helicopter capable of performing high-altitude operations during the 1999 Kargil War. Consequently, the LCH, a derivative of the HAL Dhruv helicopter, has been primarily designed for high-altitude warfare – HAL and French engine-maker, Turbomeca jointly designed a special engine optimized for extreme altitudes – and has an operational ceiling limit of 6,000–6,500 meters (19,700–21,300 feet)._

The AAC helicopter fleet is only at 70 percent of its authorized strengths, according to the Indian Ministry of Defense.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/10/indias-light-combat-helicopter-undergoing-weapons-integration/

http://www.defencenews.in/article/India’s-Light-Combat-Helicopter-enters-Series-Production-28914


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## Indo-Pak

Bad days came for Defence agents...

Now Mr Defence Minister is twissting hands of Armed forces..


----------



## Eminent Mainstream Media

Expected Orders for LCA to be of 83 planes in Mk1A configuration over the initial order of 20 Mk1 planes already ordered-

Expected Initial orders of LCH to be of 10 units for the Army and 5 units for the Air force- Industrial scale production planned to be of 20 units per year from 2018-


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## Hindustani78

Updated: Nov 07, 2016, 10.23 PM IST 


The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) led by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today approved the procurement
of 15 light combat helicopters

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## Indian_gorkha

Water Car Engineer said:


> *HAL LCH TD4, with LCA*



That looks magnificent. Good efforts by HAL.


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## Water Car Engineer

*IAF Rudra*

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> *IAF Rudra*


That helmet cued chin gun though......

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## Water Car Engineer

IAF Rudra

This one has air particle separators.






Another IAF Rudra

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## Water Car Engineer

HAL LCH TD2 in LEH Trials

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## #hydra#

Water Car Engineer said:


> HAL LCH TD2 in LEH Trials


What's the actual status of LCH now?is it still under development?


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## Akasa

Water Car Engineer said:


> *IAF Rudra*



The addition of the chin gun was a great decision. It enhances the versatility of the Rudra by freeing up one of its wing hardpoints for other weaponry.


----------



## nik22

Power.pack said:


> Hi Tejas is often compares with JF17 . All know that tejas is 4th generation jet while Jf17 is old 3rd generation.but few things are good 8n jf17 too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check this it is a description of both jet


It is a thread about LCH , not LCA


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## Akasa

Power.pack said:


> Another helicopter with world record holding power
> It is attacking helicopter



The LCH has a higher power-to-weight ratio than the Z-10 (363 W/kg vs 260 W/kg) so superior high-altitude performance, agility, climb rate, and perhaps even payload are to be expected. However, this is bound to change when the Z-10 upgrades with the WZ-16 turboshaft (which is set to make its maiden flight aboard the Z-15/H175/AC352 by December 20, 2016).


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## Water Car Engineer

#hydra# said:


> What's the actual status of LCH now?is it still under development?




Weapon trials, will be doing ATGM, especially. Going to be going to limited series production.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## #hydra#

Water Car Engineer said:


>


I would like to see LCH carrying 30 mm gun in future.

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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> I would like to see LCH carrying 30 mm gun in future.


I'm not sure the benefits over the current 20mm cannon outweigh the addtional intergration/certification costs or the weight penalty.


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## #hydra#

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm not sure the benefits over the current 20mm cannon outweigh the addtional intergration/certification costs or the weight penalty.


Better armour penetration,better performance against hardened LOC structures.


----------



## ashok321

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/811496219927154689

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## Water Car Engineer

IA's deployed Rudra. It has air particle separators for thar.






Showing off one of IA's Rudras.










IAF Rudra

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## RPK



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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

9:00

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> 9:00


Nice! But still don't understand why the IA is going for the black paint scheme on the Rudra (ALH-WSI)? It looks especially ridiculous in the deserts.

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## Vertiti Scrutator

Abingdonboy said:


> Nice! But still don't understand why the IA is going for the black paint scheme on the Rudra (ALH-WSI)? It looks especially ridiculous in the deserts.



Simple reason.....the helicopter is rigged for night fighting (with its electro-optonics). As a confirmation, just look at the color of Apache helicopters.

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## Surya 1

#hydra# said:


> What's his user name over there?



Same.

LCH will get a 20% more powerful engine and that will greatly enhance its power to carry more payload and give it an ability to fly at even higher altitude.

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## Vertiti Scrutator

Does anyone else feel that the CoMPASS (electro-optic) pod on Rudra should have been flipped 180 degrees? It should have been fixed such that the domed part is pointing downwards while it's base is fixed to the underside of Rudra's 'protruberance' (which itself could be raised slightly higher to make room) . 
That way Rudra can 'see' under the helicopter and have a vast visibility angle; which is especially useful for surveillance (of terrorists and enemy troops) and recon missions. The current (inefficient) design seems to restrict the CoMPASS's visibility to only that limited 'cone' where the autocannon could be pointed at.
Thoughts?

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## ashok321

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Does anyone else feel that the CoMPASS (electro-optic) pod on Rudra should have been flipped 180 degrees? It should have been fixed such that the domed part is pointing downwards while it's base is fixed to the underside of Rudra's 'protruberance' (which itself could be raised slightly higher to make room) .
> That way Rudra can 'see' under the helicopter and have a vast visibility angle; which is especially useful for surveillance (of terrorists and enemy troops) and recon missions. The current (inefficient) design seems to restrict the CoMPASS's visibility to only that limited 'cone' where the autocannon could be pointed at.
> Thoughts?




It has to be set forward looking.
If only the helicopter is meant for the traffic control/surveillance. Then its okey to fit under belly cam. 






The cannon is always pointing forward in tandem with its targeting pod to take on enemies on the ground.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._vs_Taliban.ogv/AH64_vs_Taliban.ogv.480p.webm

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## Vertiti Scrutator

ashok321 said:


> It has to be set forward looking.
> If only the helicopter is meant for the traffic control/surveillance. Then its okey to fit under belly cam.



I never said it should be 'under belly'. Your depiction is a complete distortion of what I was suggesting. See the pic of Viper (or for that matter any other attack helicopter in the world). They're all designed to see forward and below!! Rudra and LCH are the only attack helicopters designed to takes selfies of the pilots!!!


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## ashok321

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I never said it should be 'under belly'. Your depiction is a complete distortion of what I was suggesting. See the pic of Viper (or for that matter any other attack helicopter in the world). They're all designed to see forward and below!! Rudra and LCH are the only attack helicopters designed to takes selfies of the pilots!!!




These are attack helicopters whose crucial role is to decimate ground targets of men & material.

In your own picture, you see the cannon shooting only in the forward position and not underneath?

Now all this is done through the helmet:





The system would be cued off the pilot's helmet.

Have you ever see the cannon facing 180 degree down?


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## Vertiti Scrutator

ashok321 said:


> In your own picture, you see the cannon shooting only in the forward position and not underneath?
> 
> Have you ever see the cannon facing 180 degree down?



You're going on a tangent again and distorting my suggestion. I never said that the cannon should be pointing downwards - I was talking about the CoMPASS electro-optic pod !! (The cannon has it's cone of movements restricted by the turret) But the electro-optic pod could have a much bigger cone of visibility (bigger than that of the cannon) including below. It should be allowed to see below for surveillance and recon!! Rudra and LCH seems designed for star gazing and selfie taking!!


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## ashok321

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> You're going on a tangent again. I never said that the cannon should be pointing downwards - I was talking about the CoMPASS electro-optic pod !! (The cannon has it's cone of movements restricted by the turret) But the electro-optic pod could have a much bigger cone of visibility (bigger than that of the cannon) including below. It should be allowed to see below for surveillance and recon!! Rudra and LCH seems designed for star gazing and selfie taking!!




Illogical and moronic post.

The advancing (charging forward) helicopter passes all the target and the Pilot/Gunner visually sees them passed by. 


_surveillance and recon!_
LOL

Oh newbie or a banned recycled ID, ignore me.

Or I will.


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## egodoc222

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> You're going on a tangent again and distorting my suggestion. I never said that the cannon should be pointing downwards - I was talking about the CoMPASS electro-optic pod !! (The cannon has it's cone of movements restricted by the turret) But the electro-optic pod could have a much bigger cone of visibility (bigger than that of the cannon) including below. It should be allowed to see below for surveillance and recon!! Rudra and LCH seems designed for star gazing and selfie taking!!


It's has to do with the role lch has be assigned which to be an attack helicopter in the mountainous region...the placement of sensors allows better location of terrorists hiding inthe mountains...


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

ashok321 said:


> Illogical and moronic post.
> 
> The advancing (charging forward) helicopter passes all the target and the Pilot/Gunner visually sees them passed by.
> 
> 
> _surveillance and recon!_
> LOL
> 
> Oh newbie or a banned recycled ID, ignore me.
> 
> Or I will.


I am new to this website, but not new to common-sense and logic - both of which you have no inkling of allowing anywhere near you! You're definitely dyslexic that it took you so many tries to even remotely understand the issue. Under-belly pod??, downward pointing cannon?? - What a moron you are!!!

You keep talking the same non-sense every time without ever 'thinking' what's being discussed. So, in you assessment every attack helicopter designer and the military that uses them (US, Russia, China etc) are all morons because all of their electro-optic pods point downwards. Here's some news for you - they've all fought serious wars with those helicopters, unlike selfie obsessed morons like yourself!!!



egodoc222 said:


> It's has to do with the role lch has be assigned which to be an attack helicopter in the mountainous region...the placement of sensors allows better location of terrorists hiding inthe mountains...



My suggestion (flipping it 180 degrees - like ALL other attack helicopters) does not impede any forward looking. It helps look forward, above and 'below'; unlike the current configuration designed to look forward, vertically above (why??) and backwards at the pilots!!!


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## chandrak

Water Car Engineer said:


> IA's deployed Rudra. It has air particle separators for thar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Showing off one of IA's Rudras.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAF Rudra


Not so fascinating and stylish like others in world..but does the work and sturdy..thats all what india needs (cheap and sturdy )


----------



## egodoc222

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I am new to this website, but not new to common-sense and logic - both of which you have no inkling of allowing anywhere near you!
> 
> You keep talking the same non-sense every time without ever 'thinking' what's being discussed. So, in you assessment every attack helicopter designer and the military that uses them (US, Russia, China etc) are all morons because all of their electro-optic pods point downwards. Here's some news for you - they've all fought serious wars with those helicopters, unlike selfie obsessed morons like yourself!!!
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestion (flipping it 180 degrees - like ALL other attack helicopters) does not impede any forward looking. It helps look forward, above and 'below'; unlike the current configuration designed to look forward, vertically above (why??) and backwards at the pilots!!!


I have one more theory....may be they want sensors to be protected by gun fire from the ground....the entire nose come is made up of Kevlar


----------



## ashok321

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I am new to this website, but not new to common-sense and logic - both of which you have no inkling of allowing anywhere near you!
> 
> You keep talking the same non-sense every time without ever 'thinking' what's being discussed. So, in you assessment every attack helicopter designer and the military that uses them (US, Russia, China etc) are all morons because all of their electro-optic pods point downwards. Here's some news for you - they've all fought serious wars with those helicopters, unlike selfie obsessed morons like yourself!!!
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestion (flipping it 180 degrees - like ALL other attack helicopters) does not impede any forward looking. It helps look forward, above and 'below'; unlike the current configuration designed to look forward, vertically above (why??) and backwards at the pilots!!!




You may want the cash strapped India to add luxuries to its attack helicopter (which is not a recon helicopter).
Then there are slew of them.

Longbow has a mast mounted MMW radar and HellFire with MMW seeker combination to begin with...

Must India install them too?

You are few inches away to be ignored dude.


----------



## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I am new to this website, but not new to common-sense and logic - both of which you have no inkling of allowing anywhere near you!
> 
> You keep talking the same non-sense every time without ever 'thinking' what's being discussed. So, in you assessment every attack helicopter designer and the military that uses them (US, Russia, China etc) are all morons because all of their electro-optic pods point downwards. Here's some news for you - they've all fought serious wars with those helicopters, unlike selfie obsessed morons like yourself!!!
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestion (flipping it 180 degrees - like ALL other attack helicopters) does not impede any forward looking. It helps look forward, above and 'below'; unlike the current configuration designed to look forward, vertically above (why??) and backwards at the pilots!!!


First Not All Attack helicopters have the EO mounted the same

Case and point





https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Eurocopter_LE_TIGRE_-_Flickr_-_besopha.jpg
(near the rotors)





Above the cannon





Kiowas above the rotors
Its all down to the user

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## Vertiti Scrutator

egodoc222 said:


> I have one more theory....may be they want sensors to be protected by gun fire from the ground....the entire nose come is made up of Kevlar



If there's fire coming from the ground below, then it's all the more important for the pilot to be able to see 'below' where it's coming from - in order to take evasive or attacking measures. Rudra's body is not armor protected anyways.

No offense but your theory is like walking into gun fire with eyes closed for safety 

Not sure if you guys noticed but when the attack on Pathankot air base was underway, the eyes in the sky (thermal camera) hovering above was that of Mi-35 not Rudra - any guesses why Rudra couldn't be used for this purpose???????



GuardianRED said:


> First Not All Attack helicopters have the EO mounted the same



Agreed. But one has to look at the countries/helicopters that have fought both a regular war and a guerrilla war (which is what India is engaged in). Especially when flying over mountains!
In the current configuration Rudra/LCH can fly over a mountain top and not see anything on the other-side mountain slope that he just flew over (a perfect place for terrorists and enemy combatants to be hiding - maybe even with a stinger missile!). Having the EO pod flipped (like I was suggesting), the pilot could fly over a mountain peak and immediately look below and below-behind for any hiding miscreants!!



ashok321 said:


> You may want the cash strapped India to add luxuries to its attack helicopter (which is not a recon helicopter).
> Then there are slew of them.
> 
> Longbow has a mast mounted MMW radar and HellFire with MMW seeker combination to begin with...
> 
> Must India install them too?
> 
> You are few inches away to be ignored dude.



You're a MORON worth ignoring!!! You're definitely dyslexic!!!

Changing the mounting of EO pod is a luxury????


----------



## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> If there's fire coming from the ground below, then it's all the more important for the pilot to be able to see 'below' where it's coming from - in order to take evasive or attacking measures. Rudra's body is not armor protected anyways.
> 
> No offense but your theory is like walking into gun fire with eyes closed for safety
> 
> Not sure if you guys noticed but when the attack on Pathankot air base was underway, the eyes in the sky (thermal camera) hovering above was that of Mi-35 not Rudra - any guesses why Rudra couldn't be used for this purpose???????
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. But one has to look at the countries/helicopters that have fought both a regular war and a guerrilla war (which is what India is engaged in). Especially when flying over mountains!
> In the current configuration Rudra/LCH can fly over a mountain top and not see anything on the other-side mountain slope that he just flew over (a perfect place for terrorists and enemy combatants to be hiding - maybe even with a stinger missile!). Having the EO pod flipped (like I was suggesting), the pilot could fly over a mountain peak and immediately look below and below-behind for any hiding miscreants!!


How can an EO pod which is fitted at the nose , for eg the apache can LOOK behind??? ie pass the cannon... Any surveillance will always be at a distant or by a drone - there is a limited field of view in most attack coppers

The Rudra has composite armour plating

Any operation involving attack helicopter , it is all down to the SOP, there are plenty of literature online to tell you the same. No attack helicopter will hover and try to pick out the enemy. This is dangerous can it can be taken down by ground fire. the Copper is always on the move. Now in any hostile area - the SOP is alway fly in pairs!!!!! ... ie one will do the attack the other will survey and protect the attacking copper !

With your scenorio _"Having the EO pod flipped (like I was suggesting), the pilot could fly over a mountain peak and immediately look below and below-behind for any hiding miscreants!!_"

Like i said attack coppers will always be on the move never hover, the surveillance either by a drone (higher altitude) or another copper from a distant!


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Like i said attack coppers will always be on the move never hover, the surveillance either by a drone (higher altitude) or another copper from a distant!



Did you follow the Pathankot airbase attack episode?? The Mi-35 hovered over the airfield and thermally tracked the militants hiding in the elephant grass; and directed the commandos towards them!! Any guesses why Rudra couldn't/wouldn't function in that scenario?



GuardianRED said:


> How can an EO pod which is fitted at the nose , for eg the apache can LOOK behind??? ie pass the cannon...



Absolutely!!. When the EO pod is pointing downwards (maybe even slightly angled behind), the cone of visibility when subtended from a high altitude will cover areas way behind the cannon and the tail itself. Remember the EO pod doesn't look at its own cannon or the tail, but areas on the ground that are behind the cannon/tail!



GuardianRED said:


> No attack helicopter will hover and try to pick out the enemy. This is dangerous can it can be taken down by ground fire.



Distance can be vertical too. Rudra hovering at 5,000ft-10,000 ft above cannot be reached by small arms - and would be ideal to track terrorist movements below (refer to the Pathankot episode again!!)


----------



## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Did you follow the Pathankot airbase attack episode?? The Mi-35 hovered over the airfield and thermally tracked the militants hiding in the elephant grass; and directed the commandos towards them!! Any guesses why Rudra couldn't/wouldn't function in that scenario?
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely!!. When the EO pod is pointing downwards (maybe even slightly angled behind), the cone of visibility when subtended from a high altitude will cover areas way behind the cannon and the tail itself. Remember the EO pod doesn't look at its own cannon or the tail, but areas on the ground that are behind the cannon/tail!
> 
> 
> 
> Distance can be vertical too. Rudra hovering at 10,000 ft cannot be reached by small arms - and would be ideal to track terrorist movements below (refer to the Pathankot episode again!!)



First u need to read on literature on how surveillance, reconnaissance, and attack is done ... All you point are ALL amateurish! 

BOSS!!! ... pathankot ISN'T HOSTILE AREA!!!!... it is still friendly airspace!!!! The rudra can also perform the same as the Mi35 but from the a distance/ side and not overhead!! - why not used? the frame wasn't available hence the Mi35 was used

Didn't i tell you that the coppers move in PAIRS in a hostile area!!?? one to attack other to survey??

*Show me any video that an apache can view what behind it!! using the EO in the front!?*

WHICH Attack copper! does surveillance role???!!!! and that too 10,000ft !!! what a Joke!!!!... that is not the role for an ATTACK copper ! there are other assets to do that ! ... only once the target is located, identified and tracked, the attacked copper is bought in ! ...NOW before u say US army apache and Iraq, please do us a favour and do some research (eg apache footage on youtube) all surveillance is done at a great distance and depending on the target , either the apache will engage it or a strike aircraft

The SOP for the Rudra and how it will perform its role is not up to us ! its the IA air corp

Using your post






tell me how can the cobra view any hostile below (under the skid) and behind (below the tail)??


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> BOSS!!! ... pathankot ISN'T HOSTILE AREA!!!!... it is still friendly airspace!!!! The rudra can also perform the same as the Mi35 but from the a distance/ side and not overhead!! - why not used? the frame wasn't available hence the Mi35 was used



Dude, anywhere there's enemy it is a hostile area!!!
LOL! Rudra cannot perform from overhead ?? And why not?? Your viewpoint seems to be like folding up one leg and strapping it and then saying "Look I can still move by hopping on one leg - I am totally fine functioning this way for the rest of my life". I am just curious why exactly would someone want to do that??



GuardianRED said:


> *Show me any video that an apache can view what behind it!! using the EO in the front!?*
> 
> WHICH Attack copper! does surveillance role???!!!! and that too 10,000ft !!! what a Joke!!!!... that is not the role for an ATTACK copper ! there are other assets to do that ! ... only once the target is located, identified and tracked, the attacked copper is bought in ! ...NOW before u say US army apache and Iraq, please do us a favour and do some research (eg apache footage on youtube) all surveillance is done at a great distance and depending on the target , either the apache will engage it or a strike aircraft



Don't know which Hollywood world you live in, but ALL attack helicopters are also tasked with scouting responsibilities also. Especially in Kashmir area where a guerrilla warfare is underway . You yourself admit that during one of the worst attacks (Pathankot) recently Rudra is not very effective - peek from the side HAHAHAH.
Rudra will also be tasked for CSAR function; not sure how exactly it will 'search' the battlefield!!




GuardianRED said:


> Using your post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tell me how can the cobra view any hostile below (under the skid) and behind (below the tail)??



Firstly, the image is that of Viper not Cobra. You've just given away your ignorance on attack helicopters (not to mention a bad reader - cause I already mentioned that it's a Viper)!!!
Perhaps if you had spent some time learning geometry instead of watching YouTube videos (which I admit are fun too...) then perhaps you'd understand the concept of the 'cone of visibility' I was referring to. I did a simple sketch to illustrate the point of a downward looking EO - don't attack me for not drawing to scale!! At a good altitude, the pilot should able to see even a kilometer behind!!! Btw...the EO can be rotated up to see forward and upward too!!






And to further illustrate the point (to few other ignoramuses who were locking horns unnecessarily) that only forward looking EO is not sufficient, I created another crude sketch. Rudra/LCH will literally have to turn around to visually scan every side of the mountain slope; sometimes it might even miss stuff completely when flying over narrow valleys!! Where in fact, one would expect the helo to just rotate the EO and scan all directions!!








Essentially what you're saying is designers and users of Apache, Viper, Mi-35, WZ-10 are all morons. HAL just came up with a revolutionary design for its attack helicopters to be deployed for star gazing and selfie taking!! Bravo!!!


----------



## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Dude, anywhere there's enemy it is a hostile area!!!
> LOL! Rudra cannot perform from overhead ?? And why not?? Your viewpoint seems to be like folding up one leg and strapping it and then saying "Look I can still move by hopping on one leg - I am totally fine functioning this way for the rest of my life". I am just curious why exactly would someone want to do that??
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know which Hollywood world you live in, but ALL attack helicopters are also tasked with scouting responsibilities also. Especially in Kashmir area where a guerrilla warfare is underway . You yourself admit that during one of the worst attacks (Pathankot) recently Rudra is not very effective - peek from the side HAHAHAH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, the image is that of Viper not Cobra. You've just given away your ignorance on attack helicopters (not to mention a bad reader - cause I already mentioned that it's a Viper)!!!
> Perhaps if you had spent some time learning geometry instead watching YouTube videos (which I admit are fun too...) then perhaps you'd understand the concept of the 'cone of visibility' I was referring to. I did a simple sketch to illustrate the point of a downward looking EO - don't attack me for not drawing to scale!! At a good altitude, the pilot should able to see even a kilometer behind!!! Btw...the EO can be rotated up to see forward and upward too!!
> 
> View attachment 372907
> 
> 
> And to further illustrate the point (to few other ignoramuses who were locking horns unnecessarily) that only forward looking EO is not sufficient, I created another crude sketch. Rudra/LCH will literally have to turn around to visually scan every side of the mountain slope; sometimes it might even miss stuff completely when flying over narrow valleys!! Where in fact, one would expect the helo to just rotate the EO and scan all directions!!
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 372910





"recently Rudra is not very effective" - wow an armchair specialist who wasn't there is going to tell how effective a system is HAHAHAHA!!! ... all i said that frame is not located at that base hence the Mi35. is used. Only a few no. are inducted so far and all are in the western sector, not operating in Kashmir! .. So stop being an idiot and ask why not use them. Second it isn't the worst attack. Do loss of life is regrettable and wish that the outcome was better ! STILL NO aviation Assets were even close to in danger (of which were the main target of the attackers)

What are the earlier variants of the AH-1 called??? isn't almost the same frame as the viper? U need to put ur cone of visibility to your own test !? show us how can an EO mounted very High on nose of VIPER/COBRA!! when is point down over the barrel of the canon??? and behind??? from above the cannon? will your sketch shows us that?! u know how EO works or just assuming?... u are really a total Idiot! Airforce around the world uses drones and dedicated surveillance frames ... BUT na use attack copper!!! ... lol ... funny!.

Guerrilla warfare in Kashmir.... u really an idiot to use the rudra for scouting Thank God the IA is not U when they have other assets to do surveillance

Case and point





This variant can give FAR better field of view than ANY attack copper. The IA is not the US Army to shoot first, shoot some more and then ask questions! 

Please do tell why have Kiowas with over the rotor EO pod at all, was in the inventory when the Apache can do all the work??? + i have given many other examples other copper with the EO pod mounted differently why is that so???

And you sketch !!... do Tell everyone here that is a Mountain a 2 dimension object? can you so-called cone of visibility also 100% cover the entire area? or it too would have to move to over the entire mountain to cover it sufficient!y?? 

The Rudra/ LCH primary role anti armour/ stike and will operate in pairs or more with other frames


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> "recently Rudra is not very effective" - wow an armchair specialist who wasn't there is going to tell how effective a system is HAHAHAHA!!! ... all i said that frame is not located at that base hence the Mi35. is used. Only a few no. are inducted so far and all are in the western sector, not operating in Kashmir! .. So stop being an idiot and ask why not use them. Second it isn't the worst attack. Do loss of life is regrettable and wish that the outcome was better ! STILL NO aviation Assets were even close to in danger (of which were the main target of the attackers)
> 
> What are the earlier variants of the AH-1 called??? isn't almost the same frame as the viper? U need to put ur cone of visibility to your own test !? show us how can an EO mounted very High on nose of VIPER/COBRA!! when is point down over the barrel of the canon??? and behind??? from above the cannon? will your sketch shows us that?! u know how EO works or just assuming?... u are really a total Idiot! Airforce around the world uses drones and dedicated surveillance frames ... BUT na use attack copper!!! ... lol ... funny!.
> 
> Guerrilla warfare in Kashmir.... u really an idiot to use the rudra for scouting Thank God the IA is not U when they have other assets to do surveillance
> 
> Case and point
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This variant can give FAR better field of view than ANY attack copper. The IA is not the US Army to shoot first, shoot some more and then ask questions!
> 
> Please do tell why have Kiowas with over the rotor EO pod at all, was in the inventory when the Apache can do all the work??? + i have given many other examples other copper with the EO pod mounted differently why is that so???
> 
> And you sketch !!... do Tell everyone here that is a Mountain a 2 dimension object? can you so-called cone of visibility also 100% cover the entire area? or it too would have to move to over the entire mountain to cover it sufficient!y??
> 
> The Rudra/ LCH primary role anti armour/ stike and will operate in pairs or more with other frames



You indeed are such a COMPLETE IDIOT to suggest that Rudra will need another helicopter alongside that will have its EO pod pointing downwards!! Why cannot Rudra have its own EO pod oriented that way??? Morons like you (having folded and strapped up one leg), huddle with another moron doing the same and collectively think you then have two legs to walk!!!
Do you even listen to your own self??? Perhaps you should and spare the rest of the world from your stinking breath!!

There were Cobras, then SuperCobras and then Vipers. For morons like you Su-27, Su-30, Su-35 are all the same!! That's right, details don't matter to you; you just like to fling your turds in all directions!!!

In all that incoherent mouth-frothing vituperation you still haven't mentioned how a downward pointing EO pod is detrimental to anything that Rudra/LCH will be tasked with. I am saying that with downward orientation it can do all it can do (with upward pointing orientation ) and MUCH MORE!!! Don't know what your issue is?? Other than some blind faith in something illogical!

In the 'mountain' sketch I provided, a downward pointing EO pod can easily rotate to scan the entire valley - bottom and the sides of the valley (the sketch shows a cross section of the valley - I understand that low IQ folks like you might need better visual aids but I don't have much time for morons like you). The Current Rudra/LCH will just fly over and not be able to see anything in the valley. Instead of hurling all those insults why don't you illustrate how Rudra/LCH will do the job?? Oh right, in your world there will be a separate helo with downward pointing EO, that will be flying alongside Rudra/LCH - but it would a complete sin to orient the pod that way on Rudra/LCH itself.
Can you categorically state that the design of the most-used, most-successful attack helicopters like Apache, Mi-35 etc are all wrong? They were all morons to orient it that way? Would you suggest that Apache, Mi-35, Viper etc should also redo their EO pod mounts to facilitate star gazing and selfie taking?

As regards your question about Kiowas, US Army always wanted a scouting helicopter that would hide below tree line but look over it. Kiowa was not introduced into service despite having Apache - you're completely wrong!! It was introduced in the 60s way before the Apaches. Eventually the Apaches also got their own mast mounted 'on looker' (the Longbow radar). Not sure what any of it has to do with restricting the Rudra/LCH pilot's view to the possible enemy targets below?? Apache Longbow has a mast mounted FCR, and also an EO pod that's pointed downwards!!

With Rudra/LCH, the enemy will simply have to hide behind a boulder or inside a ditch and the helo could approach it from miles away, fly over the target and miss seeing the target completely. The enemy can make use of this weakness immensely!!! It is complete nonsense that targets should always be acquired via drones or satellites. Attack helicopters actively seek out targets and attack.


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> First Not All Attack helicopters have the EO mounted the same
> 
> Case and point
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (near the rotors)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Above the cannon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kiowas above the rotors
> Its all down to the user



Also, I was being conciliatory earlier and thought it was cute that you produced all these pictures of different helicopters. Now that I know that you're a confirmed moron, I might as well give you an education!!

The different 'placements' that you refer to in the attached pictures are not for EO pods. The stuff that you say are placed 'near the rotors' and 'above the rotors' are radars not EO pods. radars have been in existence for several decades, EO pods are of more recent introduction!! And the Agusta A129 helo that shows a FLIR pod above the gun does not rotate/scan in multiple planes!!! As such it does not matter where it gets placed.

But modern helos with newer EO pods, that can rotate in multiple planes, take full advantage of this flexibility and scan in all the directions that's possible (including below!!). Rudra/LCH has a most modern EO, but unfortunately it's not getting the full benefit out of it (because of stupid design).

So my advice to you is: think and understand stuff before you post them on these forums. Posting a tonne of random nonsense will only lower the collective knowledge!! I am new to this forum, but shudder to think what kind of nonsense you've been posting all along and ruining the learning process of other hapless souls here!!!

Also, nobody says 'copper' it's either heli, helo or chopper! Initially I thought it was a typo on your part, but the more I see you make that same moronic mistake I realized everything is really wrong in your top end!!


----------



## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> You indeed are such a COMPLETE IDIOT to suggest that Rudra will need another helicopter alongside that will have its EO pod pointing downwards!! Why cannot Rudra have its own EO pod oriented that way??? Morons like you (having folded and strapped up one leg), huddle with another moron doing the same and collectively think you then have two legs to walk!!!
> Do you even listen to your own self??? Perhaps you should and spare the rest of the world from your stinking breath!!
> 
> There were Cobras, then SuperCobras and then Vipers. For morons like you Su-27, Su-30, Su-35 are all the same!! That's right, details don't matter to you; you just like to fling your turds in all directions!!!
> 
> In all that incoherent mouth-frothing vituperation you still haven't mentioned how a downward pointing EO pod is detrimental to anything that Rudra/LCH will be tasked with. I am saying that with downward orientation it can do all it can do (with upward pointing orientation ) and MUCH MORE!!! Don't know what your issue is?? Other than some blind faith in something illogical!
> 
> In the 'mountain' sketch I provided, a downward pointing EO pod can easily rotate to scan the entire valley - bottom and the sides of the valley (the sketch shows a cross section of the valley - I understand that low IQ folks like you might need better visual aids but I don't have much time for morons like you). The Current Rudra/LCH will just fly over and not be able to see anything in the valley. Instead of hurling all those insults why don't you illustrate how Rudra/LCH will do the job?? Oh right, in your world there will be a separate helo with downward pointing EO, that will be flying alongside Rudra/LCH - but it would a complete sin to orient the pod that way on Rudra/LCH itself.
> Can you categorically state that the design of the most-used, most-successful attack helicopters like Apache, Mi-35 etc are all wrong? They were all morons to orient it that way? Would you suggest that Apache, Mi-35, Viper etc should also redo their EO pod mounts to facilitate star gazing and selfie taking?
> 
> As regards your question about Kiowas, US Army always wanted a scouting helicopter that would hide below tree line but look over it. Kiowas was not introduced into service despite having Apache - you're completely wrong!! It was introduced in the 60s way before the Apaches. Eventually the Apaches also got their own mast mounted 'on looker' (the Longbow radar). Not sure what any of it has to do with restricting the Rudra/LCH pilot's view to the possible enemy targets below?? Apache Longbow has a mast mounted FCR, and also an EO pod that's pointed downwards!!
> 
> With Rudra/LCH, the enemy will simply have to hide behind a small boulder, inside a ditch and the helo could approach it from miles away, fly over the target and miss seeing the target completely. The enemy can make use of this weakness immensely!!! It is complete nonsense that targets should always be acquired via drones or satellites. Attack helicopters actively seek out targets and attack.


Lol... did u have too much to smoke ??? This is too funny !!!

Certaiin Standard SOP for the Russians, Israel n I'm sure the USA , most attack coppers operate as a pair/Packs n there is plenty of literature to shows this. Approach to any target is always low fast and from a distance , not hover look down n fire .... Oh wait we will do what u want fly at 10,000 feet n fire .... Haha haha

U think the Apache n the mi35 are the only attack copper in the world? What abt the tiger n the mangusta ?? Both have the EO above the cannon ,heck some variants even have it on the mast . Oh wait they can't be used for this because its guerrilla warfare ..lol... So they stay at home?? ... Lololol ... (French have been using their tigers in shad) Oh genius, there R some variants of the mi35 with fix cannons, how is it to hit any target below it ...lol..

Cobra, sea cobra, super cobra n viper ... All them have their EO is the same damn location, though their optics R the different , their field of view remains the same . Using ur stupid example , the su27, su30, su35 they almost share the same design/frame, the location of the FLIR is the same DAMN location .

Coming to ur joke of a 2d mountain . N the rotating EO turret , can it still cover the mountain 360deg 100% coverage ??? .... lol ... Or they would till have to fly around the mountain??? , n wouldnt the enemy cover themselves the same way u mentioned or this is some Houdini EO shit that pass throught all the boulder/ forest cover ...lol ... To add to this how the fsck would the enemy know which type of copper it is from one side of the 2d mountain n they R on the other side , they would still hide immediately no matter which frame it is??? ....lololol

Thank God the IA isnt with ur genius brains , where only u will use an attack copper in a mountainess area for surveillance ...loll.. When u have better suited n dedicated platforms. If u had said desert/ large open area , sure attack coppers can do the job ... But not mountains like ur 2d ...haha haha ... Funny

U need u get it through ur thick uneducated skull that any mission depends on the targets, terrain n opposition weaponry ie heavy MG /SAM, based on which the plan is made with assets best suited for this mission. Not gun ho send in the attack coper lol...



Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Also, I was being conciliatory earlier and thought it was cute that you produced all these pictures of different helicopters. Now that I know that you're a confirmed moron, I might as well give you an education!!
> 
> The different 'placements' that you refer to in the attached pictures are not for EO pods. The stuff that you say are placed 'near the rotors' and 'above the rotors' are radars not EO pods. radars have been in existence for several decades, EO pods are of more recent introduction!! And the Agusta A129 helo that shows a FLIR pod above the gun does not rotate/scan in multiple planes!!! As such it does not matter where it gets placed.
> 
> But modern helos with newer EO pods, that can rotate in multiple planes, take full advantage of this flexibility and scan in all the directions that's possible (including below!!). Rudra/LCH has a most modern EO, but unfortunately it's not getting the full benefit out of it (because of stupid design).
> 
> So my advice to you is: think and understand stuff before you post them on these forums. Posting a tonne of random nonsense will only lower the collective knowledge!! I am new to this forum, but shudder to think what kind of nonsense you've been posting all along and ruining the learning process of other hapless souls here!!!
> 
> Also, nobody says 'copper' it's either heli, helo or chopper! Initially I thought it was a typo on your part, but the more I see you make that same moronic mistake I realized everything is really wrong in your top end!!


LOL ... NOT EO .... hahahaha !!!!





What the F is this then?? LOL.. this is the german variant of the tiger where they wanted the EO pod mount on the Mast . while the french preferred in below .... go home pal!

Another Education pal with NOT EO ...lol

French helicopter Tiger smashing Talibans!






As u can see BOSS. one doesn't have the EO looking down to hit the target!


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Lol... did u have too much to smoke ??? This is too funny !!!
> 
> Certaiin Standard SOP for the Russians, Israel n I'm sure the USA , most attack coppers operate as a pair/Packs n there is plenty of literature to shows this. Approach to any target is always low fast and from a distance , not hover look down n fire .... Oh wait we will do what u want fly at 10,000 feet n fire .... Haha haha
> 
> U think the Apache n the mi35 are the only attack copper in the world? What abt the tiger n the mangusta ?? Both have the EO above the cannon ,heck some variants even have it on the mast . Oh wait they can't be used for this because its guerrilla warfare ..lol... So they stay at home?? ... Lololol ... (French have been using their tigers in shad) Oh genius, there R some variants of the mi35 with fix cannons, how is it to hit any target below it ...lol..
> 
> Cobra, sea cobra, super cobra n viper ... All them have their EO is the same damn location, though their optics R the different , their field of view remains the same . Using ur stupid example , the su27, su30, su35 they almost share the same design/frame, the location of the FLIR is the same DAMN location .
> 
> Coming to ur joke of a 2d mountain . N the rotating EO turret , can it still cover the mountain 360deg 100% coverage ??? .... lol ... Or they would till have to fly around the mountain??? , n wouldnt the enemy cover themselves the same way u mentioned or this is some Houdini EO shit that pass throught all the boulder/ forest cover ...lol ... To add to this how the fsck would the enemy know which type of copper it is from one side of the 2d mountain n they R on the other side , they would still hide immediately no matter which frame it is??? ....lololol
> 
> Thank God the IA isnt with ur genius brains , where only u will use an attack copper in a mountainess area for surveillance ...loll.. When u have better suited n dedicated platforms. If u had said desert/ large open area , sure attack coppers can do the job ... But not mountains like ur 2d ...haha haha ... Funny
> 
> U need u get it through ur thick uneducated skull that any mission depends on the targets, terrain n opposition weaponry ie heavy MG /SAM, based on which the plan is made with assets best suited for this mission. Not gun ho send in the attack coper lol...
> 
> 
> LOL ... NOT EO .... hahahaha !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What the F is this then?? LOL.. this is the german variant of the tiger where they wanted the EO pod mount on the Mast . while the french preferred in below .... go home pal!
> 
> Another Education pal with NOT EO ...lol
> 
> French helicopter Tiger smashing Talibans!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As u can see BOSS. one doesn't have the EO looking down to hit the target!



You indeed are a nutcase who cannot think, even if you have to protect yourself from repeated public humiliations. My issue was that an EO pod that has full rotational capability should be allowed to see in all directions!! The Germans are not idiots (like yourself), the EO pod in the picture CAN see in ALL directions. They weren't nut jobs like you to put an obstruction plate to block it from seeing below. Don't let those blades fool you, the systems are sophisticated to ignore the video frame where the blade temporarily swings by (even WWII planes could shoot bullets between the propeller blades) That SAGEM pod can be pointed below and backwards!!!!! Not to mention that it gives a 'heads up' view for the helo when hidden behind ridges and tree tops! I have no problem with this design!

Rudra/LCH gets no such benefit (of overhead lookup) and has squandered away the vast visibility that the CoMPASS pod offers by blocking the downward/backwards looking capability!!

You're forever spouting your verbal diarrhea but still haven't answered the simple question: What does Rudra/LCH lose by pointing downwards; I have given you a number of solid benefits for doing so, without losing any benefits of pointing upwards.

Please stop saying 'copper'. Actually, stop talking about helicopters in general. By now you already know that you've made a fool of yourself. Once you're in a hole, stop digging.

Peace out! Buddy!



GuardianRED said:


> Lol... did u have too much to smoke ??? This is too funny !!!
> 
> Certaiin Standard SOP for the Russians, Israel n I'm sure the USA , most attack coppers operate as a pair/Packs n there is plenty of literature to shows this. Approach to any target is always low fast and from a distance , not hover look down n fire .... Oh wait we will do what u want fly at 10,000 feet n fire .... Haha haha
> 
> U think the Apache n the mi35 are the only attack copper in the world? What abt the tiger n the mangusta ?? Both have the EO above the cannon ,heck some variants even have it on the mast . Oh wait they can't be used for this because its guerrilla warfare ..lol... So they stay at home?? ... Lololol ... (French have been using their tigers in shad) Oh genius, there R some variants of the mi35 with fix cannons, how is it to hit any target below it ...lol..
> 
> Cobra, sea cobra, super cobra n viper ... All them have their EO is the same damn location, though their optics R the different , their field of view remains the same . Using ur stupid example , the su27, su30, su35 they almost share the same design/frame, the location of the FLIR is the same DAMN location .
> 
> Coming to ur joke of a 2d mountain . N the rotating EO turret , can it still cover the mountain 360deg 100% coverage ??? .... lol ... Or they would till have to fly around the mountain??? , n wouldnt the enemy cover themselves the same way u mentioned or this is some Houdini EO shit that pass throught all the boulder/ forest cover ...lol ... To add to this how the fsck would the enemy know which type of copper it is from one side of the 2d mountain n they R on the other side , they would still hide immediately no matter which frame it is??? ....lololol
> 
> Thank God the IA isnt with ur genius brains , where only u will use an attack copper in a mountainess area for surveillance ...loll.. When u have better suited n dedicated platforms. If u had said desert/ large open area , sure attack coppers can do the job ... But not mountains like ur 2d ...haha haha ... Funny
> 
> U need u get it through ur thick uneducated skull that any mission depends on the targets, terrain n opposition weaponry ie heavy MG /SAM, based on which the plan is made with assets best suited for this mission. Not gun ho send in the attack coper lol...
> 
> 
> LOL ... NOT EO .... hahahaha !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What the F is this then?? LOL.. this is the german variant of the tiger where they wanted the EO pod mount on the Mast . while the french preferred in below .... go home pal!
> 
> Another Education pal with NOT EO ...lol
> 
> French helicopter Tiger smashing Talibans!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As u can see BOSS. one doesn't have the EO looking down to hit the target!



I understand your attack formation....you're absolutely right, this formation has 360 degree visibility and the forward movement looks very beautiful!!! One flying forward, other flying backwards and the third flying inverted sidewards!! BRAVO!!!!








GuardianRED said:


>



Nice video! Thanks for sharing.

Not sure if your piddly brain picked up all the details from the video, but the helo didn't get all the targeting info from a drone/satellite and then just swoop over the mountain at 300 km/h while simultaneously raining bombs/bullets in 1 sec over the target area. The helos hovered over the terrain, scanned and picked up targets and then shot at them!!! At the time of firing bullets/rockets it always is forward looking. That ridge line is a perfect example of a helo like Rudra flying over it and not being able to see what lay 3m below the ridgeline on the other side (unless the entire helo was turned around!!!).


----------



## Vertiti Scrutator

Anyone know the latest status on Helina?


----------



## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> You indeed are a nutcase who cannot think, even if you have to protect yourself from repeated public humiliation. My issue was that an EO pod that has full rotational capability should be allowed to see in all directions!! The Germans are not idiots (like yourself), the EO pod in the picture CAN see in ALL directions. They weren't nut jobs like you to put an obstruction plate to block it from seeing below. Don't let those blades fool you, the systems are sophisticated to ignore the video frame where the blade temporarily swings by (even WWII planes could shoot bullets between the propeller blades) That SAGEM pod can be pointed below and backwards!!!!! Not to mention that it gives a 'heads up' view for the helo when hidden behind ridges and tree tops! I have no problem with this design!
> 
> Rudra/LCH gets no such benefit (of overhead lookup) and has squandered away the vast visibility that the CoMPASS pod offers by blocking the downward/backwards looking capability!!
> 
> You're forever spouting your verbal diarrhea but still haven't answered the simple question: What does Rudra/LCH lose by pointing downwards; I have given you a number of solid benefits for doing so, without losing any benefits of pointing upwards.
> 
> Please stop saying 'copper'. Actually, stop talking about helicopters in general. By now you already know that you've made a fool of yourself. Once you're in a hole, stop digging.
> 
> Peace out! Buddy!
> 
> 
> 
> I understand your attack formation....you're absolutely right, this formation has 360 degree visibility and the forward movement looks very beautiful!!! One flying forward, other flying backwards and the third flying inverted sidewards!! BRAVO!!!!
> 
> View attachment 372930
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice video! Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Not sure if your piddly brain picked up all the details from the video, but the helo didn't get all the targeting info from a drone/satellite and then just swoop over the mountain at 300 km/h while simultaneously raining bombs/bullets in 1 sec over the target area. The helos hovered over the terrain, scanned and picked up targets and then shot at them!!! At the time of firing bullets/rockets it always is forward looking. That ridge line is a perfect example of a helo like Rudra flying over it and not being able to see what lay 3m below the ridgeline on the other side (unless the entire helo was turned around!!!).


Lol.... you're definitely supplying the Jokes, for the rest of us to laugh!!

Thank God the IA and the rest of the world when it comes to cHoppers is not the same as your NOT so gifted genius brains!

U need to make up your mind - first, they are NOT EO pods and NOW they are EO pods? pls for very one sake -make up your mind, why this changing the goal post every time!? 

Now what u said_ "The helos hovered over the terrain, scanned and picked up targets and then shot at them!!! At the time of firing bullets/rockets it always is forward looking"_

First, you will agree that the System on top of the cockpit of French army tiger is an EO pod yes or NO?? 
Hopefully, u said Yes, the EO on this cHopper can rotate and this can be clearly seen it in the video and helps in eliminating the Target (if you can sorry can't help your not so gifted genius)

So the cHopper happens to fly by and happened to locate them - What REALLY???? , why didn't (using your words) _"The enemy will simply have to hide behind a boulder or inside a ditch and the helo could approach it from miles away, fly over the target and miss seeing the target completely" _

The cHopper in this Video was lucky??!!! ...wouldn't the EO on top the cockpit be a hindrance because it can't look down??!!! ...lol

And where is the satellite surveillance you keep talking about ?? I surely didn't bring it up? ... wouldn't a simpler explanation be better??? like the tiger was directed to support ground forces in the area and were given coordinates/location of the enemy and then fired on that ridge? - See doesn't this sound better - "That how the rest of the world work - please do learn from it!"

Here is another video to help your small mind!






Please Note, the Armament for Rudra/LCH is almost identical to the Tiger in the video above. This will help you to increase your knowledge + gives you the type of role they will perform

Coming back to your old argument - the cHopper can't see behind, and yet both the apache and the VIPER can't do the same, (please stop with your 2D drawing it is embarrassing ) - clearly shows you are not an engineering or math student!

Finally, we all thankful (Again) that we all are not blessed with your NOT so Gifted genius and that the Rudra/LCH will play a role they are designed and built for and Seriously Don't need an armchair joker like you to say otherwise

Oh yes





Oh look this attack cHopper is very bad as it can't look down too! ... how sad!!!

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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Lol.... you're definitely supplying the Jokes, for the rest of us to laugh!!
> 
> Thank God the IA and the rest of the world when it comes to cHoppers is not the same as your NOT so gifted genius brains!



Dude!! I think I've started liking you - you actually took my advice and dropped the 'copper' word!!! I am so pleased with this improvement in you. The rest of your...whatever, well....we'll keep working on it. There's always hope 



GuardianRED said:


> U need to make up your mind - first, they are NOT EO pods and NOW they are EO pods? pls for very one sake -make up your mind, why this changing the goal post every time!?



Not sure what this rambling is about. The three pictures you posted initially did not have an EO pod!! Kiowa and Tiger had radars and Agusta had a FLIR pod (that's not 360 deg rotatable). Then you posted a pic of Agusta - that did have an EO pod that was 360 deg flexibility - and the Germans did a good job of taking advantage of that; it can look in ALL directions. So, where's the problem?? Too much fine detail hurting your brain? That's right - for you cobra, supercobra, vipers are all the same!!!



GuardianRED said:


> Now what u said_ "The helos hovered over the terrain, scanned and picked up targets and then shot at them!!! At the time of firing bullets/rockets it always is forward looking"_
> 
> First, you will agree that the System on top of the cockpit of French army tiger is an EO pod yes or NO??
> Hopefully, u said Yes, the EO on this cHopper can rotate and this can be clearly seen it in the video and helps in eliminating the Target (if you can sorry can't help your not so gifted genius)
> 
> So the cHopper happens to fly by and happened to locate them - What REALLY???? , why didn't (using your words) _"The enemy will simply have to hide behind a boulder or inside a ditch and the helo could approach it from miles away, fly over the target and miss seeing the target completely" _
> 
> The cHopper in this Video was lucky??!!! ...wouldn't the EO on top the cockpit be a hindrance because it can't look down??!!! ...lol



More drunken rambling!! I never said that the EO on top is bad!! I explained in detail how the EO on top of the helo is able to see in ALL directions. This is a better design than under slung EO pod - as the helo can see over the ridge/tree line AND also see below/behind etc. Read my previous post again.



GuardianRED said:


> And where is the satellite surveillance you keep talking about ?? I surely didn't bring it up? ... wouldn't a simpler explanation be better??? like the tiger was directed to support ground forces in the area and were given coordinates/location of the enemy and then fired on that ridge? - See doesn't this sound better - "That how the rest of the world work - please do learn from it!"


I am glad you're saying that the attack helos have other tasks like supporting the ground troops and 'seeking' out ground targets!! And that requires hovering!! You're echoing what I had been saying all along. Seems like you're violently coming to an agreement. Again read my earlier posts! And read the dribble you wrote too that attack helos don't hover!!



GuardianRED said:


> Oh look this attack cHopper is very bad as it can't look down too! ... how sad!!!



Here's another example of how you don't THINK and PROCESS information; you're so comfortable with your verbal diarrhea!!! The T129 was not built as a new attack helicopter. They just took the old A129 Mangusta and replaced the FLIR pod with the latest version 360 deg rotatable EO pod!! The earlier FLIR pod wasn't rotatable in all directions (and hence could not look down/behind etc.) and as such the A129 hardware was built such that the FLIR pod rested right over the cannon's turret!!!. The Turks didn't do any major structural changes to the frame (even though they mounted the rotatable EO pod). So, they're losing out on the advantages that the EO pod offers!! But it's understandable because they're doing a retrofit!!! Why would a new design of Rudra/LCH emulate the bad example??
Why would you show all of these poor examples to argue a losing battle? There always will be bad examples - done for whatever constraints that they faced.
Now just because you exist, doesn't mean that everyone should use your existence as an excuse to become like you, right?. We all understand that some weird stuff in your past must have made you into this weird thing; there's no reason for anyone to emulate the bad example you are - just because you exist.

Kapisch?????


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## Roybot

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Dude!! I think I've started liking you - you actually took my advice and dropped the 'copper' word!!! I am so pleased with this improvement in you. The rest of your...whatever, well....we'll keep working on it. There's always hope
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what this rambling is about. The three pictures you posted initially did not have an EO pod!! Kiowa and Tiger had radars and Agusta had a FLIR pod (that's not 360 deg rotatable). Then you posted a pic of Agusta - that did have an EO pod that was 360 deg flexibility - and the Germans did a good job of taking advantage of that; it can look in ALL directions. So, where the problem?? Too much fine detail hurting your brain? That's right - for you cobra, supercobra, vipers are all the same!!!
> 
> 
> 
> More drunken rambling!! I never said that the EO on top is bad!! I explained in detail how the EO on top of the helo is able to see in ALL directions. This is a better design than under slung EO pod - as the helo can see over the ridge/tree line AND also see below/behind etc. Read my previous post again.
> 
> 
> I am glad you're saying that the attack helos have other tasks like supporting the ground troops and 'seeking' out ground targets!! And that requires hovering!! You're echoing what I had been saying all along. Seems like you're violently coming to an agreement. Again read my earlier posts! And read the dribble you wrote too that attack helos don't hover!!
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another example of how you don't THINK and PROCESS information; you're so comfortable with your verbal diarrhea!!! The T129 was not built as a new attack helicopter. They just took the old A129 Mangusta and replaced the FLIR pod with the latest version 360 deg rotatable EO pod!! The earlier FLIR pod wasn't rotatable in all directions (and hence could not look down/behind etc.) and as such the A129 hardware was built such that the FLIR pod rested right over the cannon's turret!!!. The Turks didn't do any major structural changes to the frame (even though they mounted the rotatable EO pod). So, they're losing out on the advantages that the EO pod offers!! But it's understandable because they're doing a retrofit!!! Why would a new design of Rudra/LCH emulate the bad example??
> Why would you show all of these poor examples to argue a losing battle? There always will be bad examples - done for whatever constraints that they faced.
> Now just because you exist, doesn't mean that everyone should use your existence as an excuse to become like you, right?. We all understand that some weird stuff in your past must have made you into this weird thing; there's no reason for anyone to emulate the bad example you are - just because you exist.
> 
> Kapisch?????



How hard do you think it would be to change the position of the Compass EO pod, from above the chin to below the chin?


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Roybot said:


> How hard do you think it would be to change the position of the Compass EO pod, from above the chin to below the chin?



(Even though I don't know the innards of the structural design) I seriously don't think it should be such a hard thing to do. Some structural changes will have to be made - but none should effect the overall design! 
I feel that they took the easy way out from a design perspective. I am trying to understand too as to why they had to make such compromises. At one point I gave them the benefit of doubt, but then I hear the nonsense like the DRDO cheif admitting that there was 'lack of communication' between DRDO and the Army that Arjun Mk2 improvements (with additional mine ploughs etc) would add additional weight (of several tonnes) to the tank. I can't believe how IA didn't feel it would, and how DRDO (that was working on it for several years) didn't deem it fit to inform them early on. Given, this level of shit I have to doubt the (crapy) design decisions like the EO mount on Rudra/LCH had any sound reasoning.


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## Roybot

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> (Even though I don't know the innards of the structural design) I seriously don't think it should be such a hard thing to do. Some structural changes will have to be made - but none should effect the overall design!
> I feel that they took the easy way out from a design perspective. I am trying to understand too as to why they had to make such compromises. At one point I gave them the benefit of doubt, but then I hear the nonsense like the DRDO cheif admitting that there was 'lack of communication' between DRDO and the Army that Arjun Mk2 improvements (with additional mine ploughs etc) would add additional weight (of several tonnes) to the tank. I can't believe how IA didn't feel it would, and how DRDO (that was working on it for several years) didn't deem it fit to inform them early on. Given, this level of shit I have to doubt the (crapy) design decisions like the EO mount on Rudra/LCH had any sound reasoning.



I am with you on this one. I don't buy this argument of one chopper for attack, and the other assisting it with recon and support, especially when you can get just one chopper to do both the jobs with some small changes in the design.

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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Dude!! I think I've started liking you - you actually took my advice and dropped the 'copper' word!!! I am so pleased with this improvement in you. The rest of your...whatever, well....we'll keep working on it. There's always hope
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what this rambling is about. The three pictures you posted initially did not have an EO pod!! Kiowa and Tiger had radars and Agusta had a FLIR pod (that's not 360 deg rotatable). Then you posted a pic of Agusta - that did have an EO pod that was 360 deg flexibility - and the Germans did a good job of taking advantage of that; it can look in ALL directions. So, where's the problem?? Too much fine detail hurting your brain? That's right - for you cobra, supercobra, vipers are all the same!!!
> 
> 
> 
> More drunken rambling!! I never said that the EO on top is bad!! I explained in detail how the EO on top of the helo is able to see in ALL directions. This is a better design than under slung EO pod - as the helo can see over the ridge/tree line AND also see below/behind etc. Read my previous post again.
> 
> 
> I am glad you're saying that the attack helos have other tasks like supporting the ground troops and 'seeking' out ground targets!! And that requires hovering!! You're echoing what I had been saying all along. Seems like you're violently coming to an agreement. Again read my earlier posts! And read the dribble you wrote too that attack helos don't hover!!
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another example of how you don't THINK and PROCESS information; you're so comfortable with your verbal diarrhea!!! The T129 was not built as a new attack helicopter. They just took the old A129 Mangusta and replaced the FLIR pod with the latest version 360 deg rotatable EO pod!! The earlier FLIR pod wasn't rotatable in all directions (and hence could not look down/behind etc.) and as such the A129 hardware was built such that the FLIR pod rested right over the cannon's turret!!!. The Turks didn't do any major structural changes to the frame (even though they mounted the rotatable EO pod). So, they're losing out on the advantages that the EO pod offers!! But it's understandable because they're doing a retrofit!!! Why would a new design of Rudra/LCH emulate the bad example??
> Why would you show all of these poor examples to argue a losing battle? There always will be bad examples - done for whatever constraints that they faced.
> Now just because you exist, doesn't mean that everyone should use your existence as an excuse to become like you, right?. We all understand that some weird stuff in your past must have made you into this weird thing; there's no reason for anyone to emulate the bad example you are - just because you exist.
> 
> Kapisch?????



Wow changing the narrative ... what a dick move.... first hover isnt above the target but from the distant. never directly over the target

U need to read the stuff you wrote and again chopper look behind.... pal.... apart from the german , the viper and apache can't do the same .

Using your own words !! can the A129 look below? with you all your crazy argument and now you are ok with it !!! another DICK move!

The Compass on the rubra u do know it can rotate in alll direction and not fix one postion or are u that dumb?






T129 with a similar EO as the Rudra . can it look down!? can it look behind?

The BS you talk and say



Vertiti Scrutator said:


> (Even though I don't know the innards of the structural design) I seriously don't think it should be such a hard thing to do. Some structural changes will have to be made - but none should effect the overall design!
> I feel that they took the easy way out from a design perspective. I am trying to understand too as to why they had to make such compromises. At one point I gave them the benefit of doubt, but then I hear the nonsense like the DRDO cheif admitting that there was 'lack of communication' between DRDO and the Army that Arjun Mk2 improvements (with additional mine ploughs etc) would add additional weight (of several tonnes) to the tank. I can't believe how IA didn't feel it would, and how DRDO (that was working on it for several years) didn't deem it fit to inform them early on. Given, this level of shit I have to doubt the (crapy) design decisions like the EO mount on Rudra/LCH had any sound reasoning.



Many Attack frame available that are combat proven say otherwise. Stop making a joke of yourself!



Roybot said:


> I am with you on this one. I don't buy this argument of one chopper for attack, and the other assisting it with recon and support, especially when you can get just one chopper to do both the jobs with some small changes in the design.



Plenty of literature - SOPs of airforces around the world and how they operate include IA air corp. No attack copper operate independently always as a team. Case and point Iron fist exercises of the IAF and their Mi35s

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## Roybot

GuardianRED said:


> Plenty of literature - SOPs of airforces around the world and how they operate include IA air corp. No attack copper operate independently always as a team. Case and point Iron fist exercises of the IAF and their Mi35s



SOPs change, and SOPs are made according to the resources that are available and not the other way round.

When you don't have a chopper which can do both the jobs you use two choppers in tandem, but if you can make a chopper which can do both the jobs, wouldn't you rather have that and change the SOP accordingly?

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## GuardianRED

Roybot said:


> SOPs change, and SOPs are made according to the resources that are available and not the other way round.
> 
> When you don't have a chopper which can do both the jobs you use two choppers in tandem, but if you can make a chopper which can do both the jobs, wouldn't you rather have that and change the SOP accordingly?


Above all, its all depend on the Mission objectives and yes the resources available and ALSO opposition the mission would likely be faced. It not as simple as that - reason can be from backup, to redundancy to Additional Fire support.

Do answer me to the case of the Atlantic incidence for the IAF, Why send 2 frames to intercept when one is enough??

Unless the mission parameters calls for a single frame - till then tried and tested SOPs will be followed


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## Vertiti Scrutator

You still haven't answered the question: What is the downside for flipping the EO pod orientation?? But you keep beating around the bush!!!



GuardianRED said:


> Using your own words !! can the A129 look below? with you all your crazy argument and now you are ok with it !!! another DICK move!
> 
> T129 with a similar EO as the Rudra . can it look down!? can it look behind?



Not sure how many times I have to explain about the T129 (that's essentially A129). A129 was not designed for a fully rotatable EO pod!!! T129 just replaced the FLIR pod on A129. What is so difficult to understand here?



GuardianRED said:


> The Compass on the rubra u do know it can rotate in alll direction and not fix one postion or are u that dumb?




Of course, the CoMPASS on Rudra can rotate fully - that's what I've been saying all along (you don't seem to have an understanding on what's being discussed), But what use is that if the view is obstructed?? That's like saying you have fully functional eyes, but will walk around wearing a blindfold all the time!! It's like buying a Ferrari and then locking up all the top gears and restricting yourself to driving only in the first gear all the time!!!



GuardianRED said:


> Plenty of literature - SOPs of airforces around the world and how they operate include IA air corp. No attack copper operate independently always as a team. Case and point Iron fist exercises of the IAF and their Mi35s



You keep talking about choppers (why're you back to 'coppers'??) operating as a 'team', what good is the 'team' if ALL have the same problem. How would a pair (or a trio) of Rudras/LCHs have better visibility unless they fly in the formation that I illustrated (so, you approve that image of 3 Rudras as a legitimate formation?). You seriously don't think that a team of LCHs will be accompanied by a dhruv with under slung EO pod, do you??

There's no point in arguing any further - you're just mouth-frothing nonsense. This is my last response to your posts! Adios!


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> You still haven't answered the question: What is the downside for flipping the EO pod orientation?? But you keep beating around the bush!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how many times I have to explain about the T129 (that's essentially A129). A129 was not designed for a fully rotatable EO pod!!! T129 just replaced the FLIR pod on A129. What is so difficult to understand here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, the CoMPASS on Rudra can rotate fully - that's what I've been saying all along (you don't seem to have an understanding on what's being discussed), But what use is that if the view is obstructed?? That's like saying you have fully functional eyes, but will walk around wearing a blindfold all the time!! It's like buying a Ferrari and then locking up all the top gears and restricting yourself to driving only in the first gear all the time!!!
> 
> 
> 
> You keep talking about choppers (why're you back to 'coppers'??) operating as a 'team', what good is the 'team' if ALL have the same problem. How would a pair (or a trio) of Rudras/LCHs have better visibility unless they fly in the formation that I illustrated (so, you approve that image of 3 Rudras as a legitimate formation?). You seriously don't think that a team of LCHs will be accompanied by a dhruv with under slung EO pod, do you??
> 
> There's no point in arguing any further - you're just mouth-frothing nonsense. This is my last response to your posts! Adios!




Thank God the World doesn't operate with such as a Not so gifted genius as u !... plenty of combat proven ops with attack choppers with EO mounted differently 

Thank GOD the SOPs of the IA are not operating the way u think !

Please do everyone a favor and DON'T BREED!

Good Day!


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Please do everyone a favor and DON'T BREED!



Too late...you're in the world!


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Too late...you're in the world!


Wow ... that it ??? .....that is a really SAD comeback

Good luck with your sanity (or lack of) and Good Day!


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Wow ... that it ??? .....that is a really SAD comeback


Not for me. Perhaps to you it was SAD news


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Roybot said:


> I am with you on this one. I don't buy this argument of one chopper for attack, and the other assisting it with recon and support, especially when you can get just one chopper to do both the jobs with some small changes in the design.



I hope they didn't do the design abomination for the sake of good looks, the down facing EO pod does give most helicopters a 'chipmunk' look. Sounds silly, but one under reported aspect about weapons selection is all about looks. The primary reason for F35 being selected over Boeing X-32 was better looks of F35!! This was openly acknowledged by the US Air Force!!


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## Lord Of Gondor

Early concept of the WSI-ALH:

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## Vertiti Scrutator

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Early concept of the WSI-ALH:


Somehow they've always taken the easy way out - just do a simple jugaad and get done with it!!!

The new chinese attack helicopter WZ-10 (which looks and performs in a similar fashion as LCH) did get the EO pod placement correct (just like all other 'successful' attack helos)






Just look at the ridge lines and deep valleys over which LCH/Rudras need to fly over (below). How on earth will it 'see' anything inside the valley or the other side of the ridge??


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## Lord Of Gondor

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Somehow they've always taken the easy way out - just do a simple jugaad and get done with it!!!


Not even close. The amount of work that the HAL technicians had to do is for some to guess, and for others to feel proud of.






Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Just look at the ridge lines and deep valleys over which LCH/Rudras need to fly over (below). How on earth will it 'see' anything inside the valley or the other side of the ridge??



They are rotary winged assets. They can hover, fly backwards and do other things that fixed wing assets cannot.
If the Rudra is in service, it means that the most demanding user, the Indian Army is satisfied with the performance and that settles it for most of us.
And the Z10 in would not even come close to what the LCH can do in high altitudes.


> “These seasonal trials — including cold weather trials carried out at Leh in February this year — have been completed as part of the certification process. The flight trials at Leh have established hover performance and low-speed handling characteristics of the helicopter under extreme weather conditions at different altitudes (3200 to 4800 metres),” said T Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL.
> 
> “During the trials, the helicopter and systems performed satisfactorily. LCH has also proven its capability to land and take off at the forward landing base in Siachen. LCH is the first attack helicopter to land in the forward bases at Siachen,” he added.


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...itude-trials-of-lch-at-leh/article7610924.ece



> “This helicopter is simply unmatched at high altitudes”, says Group Captain Unni Nair, HAL’s chief helicopter test pilot, who flew the Dhruv that August morning during “hot-and-high” trials at Sonam.


http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/03/in-siachen-dhruv-proves-world-beater.html
And Sonam, by the way is the place where the World's highest Helipad is (6400m)

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## Vertiti Scrutator

Lord Of Gondor said:


> They are rotary winged assets. They can hover, fly backwards and do other things that fixed wing assets cannot.


But why are all those acrobatics required? If the simple solution could have been to just point the EO downwards and 'see', like how the Americans, Russians and Chinese would do. Why the Indian mid-air convulsions?

Further, all those acrobatics (hovering, flying backwards etc) doesn't give any visibility into a deep valley (See my sketch illustration). The only way for Rudra/LCH to see into the valley is by doing a vertical dive into the valley (cannot do this at every point!!) OR get into the valley and fly along the nap of valley - then you'll see what's few kms ahead in the valley. But then the element of surprise is gone and you're fully exposed all along!! The Enemy sees you coming from miles away!! The standard military SOP is to fly over the ridge and peek into the valley immediately - catch the bad guys below by surprise.



Lord Of Gondor said:


> If the Rudra is in service, it means that the most demanding user, the Indian Army is satisfied with the performance and that settles it for most of us.


Shit happens everywhere! Just because that's how HAL/IA did it - it doesn't mean it is correct. I still haven't found a reasonable answer why an attack helicopter would acquire the flexibility to look vertically up at the sky and forgo the ability to look vertically down!!!! What did they gain by going against conventional wisdom? Perhaps they emulated a bad example of T129 (which unfortunately was a prisoner of structural history than any actual requirement).

I'll quote the example of Pathankot air base attack again. Mi-35 with downward looking EO pod could hover over the air base and detect the jihadis hiding in the elephant grass. Rudra cannot do this simple maneuver!





Lord Of Gondor said:


> And the Z10 in would not even come close to what the LCH can do in high altitudes.


Agreed. That the current WZ-10 is grossly underpowered; they're uprating the engines. But the engine power is besides the point here.



Lord Of Gondor said:


> And Sonam, by the way is the place where the World's highest Helipad is (6400m)



Yep. Kudos again! The question on EO pod orientation still remains.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


>



Is this a very old pic or new TD/LSP? Thought all the eariler TDs had the cannon and the EO pod.


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## Water Car Engineer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Is this a very old pic or new TD/LSP? Thought all the eariler TDs had the cannon and the EO pod.




I dont know when this was taken, it is one of the older models, TD2.

I've seen it without pod and cannons before, 










But that image I posted has to be newer, has panels on the bottom of the cockpit. And cannon section looks to be filled.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


> I dont know when this was taken, it is one of the older models, TD2.
> 
> I've seen it without pod and cannons before,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that image I posted has to be newer, has panels on the bottom of the cockpit. And cannon section looks to be filled.


Looks naked and defenseless

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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Somehow they've always taken the easy way out - just do a simple jugaad and get done with it!!!
> 
> The new chinese attack helicopter WZ-10 (which looks and performs in a similar fashion as LCH) did get the EO pod placement correct (just like all other 'successful' attack helos)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just look at the ridge lines and deep valleys over which LCH/Rudras need to fly over (below). How on earth will it 'see' anything inside the valley or the other side of the ridge??


LOLOL... still find this laughable !! ... 

_"How on earth will it 'see' anything inside the valley or the other side of the ridge??_"

Sorry other side !? .... SO Your Houdini EO can pass through solid objects nows??? ... Even with the Down looking POD , they STILL have to fly over the ridge! and thru the valley or as in your 2D drawing the valley is as flat as you make it!

The other funny part is ... do you know the range of of the Rudra EO before the laughable cone of visibility .... why fly over why can locate the same from the distant!?

STOP bringing up the Mi35 and pathankot - as the rudra isn't based there!


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> LOLOL... still find this laughable !! ...
> 
> _"How on earth will it 'see' anything inside the valley or the other side of the ridge??_"
> 
> Sorry other side !? .... SO Your Houdini EO can pass through solid objects nows??? ... Even with the Down looking POD , they STILL have to fly over the ridge! and thru the valley or as in your 2D drawing the valley is as flat as you make it!
> 
> The other funny part is ... do you know the range of of the Rudra EO before the laughable cone of visibility .... why fly over why can locate the same from the distant!?
> 
> STOP bringing up the Mi35 and pathankot - as the rudra isn't based there!



Are you the clown that won't die??? Thought your act was done. Why don't you go perform somewhere else?

Downlooking pods will just need to clear the ridge to see the entire valley and both sides of the valley. LCH/Rudra (even after clearing the ridge) cannot see the valley floor, it cannot see the side of the valley that it just flew over (other side of the ridge) nor can it 'fully' see the side of the valley wall that it is facing. Are you really this dense that you don't follow or you just like to be disruptive and act like a monkey!!!


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## egodoc222

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Somehow they've always taken the easy way out - just do a simple jugaad and get done with it!!!
> 
> The new chinese attack helicopter WZ-10 (which looks and performs in a similar fashion as LCH) did get the EO pod placement correct (just like all other 'successful' attack helos)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just look at the ridge lines and deep valleys over which LCH/Rudras need to fly over (below). How on earth will it 'see' anything inside the valley or the other side of the ridge??


What are you a 3 grade kid?
That stupid diagram of your won't prove anything....
Where is the scale? what are the parameters you have taken into account before drawing that cone of visibility?
If you want to troll find another thread..


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## Vertiti Scrutator

egodoc222 said:


> What are you a 3 grade kid?
> That stupid diagram of your won't prove anything....
> Where is the scale? what are the parameters you have taken into account before drawing that cone of visibility?
> If you want to troll find another thread..



Are you schizophrenic? You definitely appear so.


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## egodoc222

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Are you schizophrenic? You definitely appear so.


@waz @Oscar
Take care of this guy!!
Personal attack!!


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## Vertiti Scrutator

egodoc222 said:


> @waz @Oscar
> Take care of this guy!!
> Personal attack!!


Look who's talking! (pun intended - if you caught that drift!!!)


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## egodoc222

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Look who's talking! (pun intended - if you caught that drift!!!)


Post reported!


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## Vertiti Scrutator

egodoc222 said:


> Post reported!


Thank you!


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## HariPrasad

The best part of LCH and RUDRA family is their very very high T/W ratio. Their T/W ratio is 2 times higher than the T/W ratio of chopper like WZ=10. They are all set to get (Or they might have got) 20% higher thrust engine. This makes these chopper family an unique family which can operate at very high altitude and carry phenomenal load at high altitude and fly very fast.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

HariPrasad said:


> The best part of LCH and RUDRA family is their very very high T/W ratio. Their T/W ratio is 2 times higher than the T/W ratio of chopper like WZ=10. They are all set to get (Or they might have got) 20% higher thrust engine. This makes these chopper family an unique family which can operate at very high altitude and carry phenomenal load at high altitude and fly very fast.


I think the higher powered engine is already on LCH.
Interestingly, newer versions of Apache and other attack helicopters all claim that their altitude ceiling is similar to that of LCH, but they never openly say that it's with ZERO payload  LCH is unique that it can carry decent armament (if not full load) all the way to its altitude ceiling!! Definitely unique!!
That said, WZ-10 is getting an engine replacement to enable it to carry more payload. The original payload capacity was laughable (the ones they ceremoniously gifted to Pakistan).


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## Abingdonboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/831059505152528384

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## ni8mare

@Abingdonboy

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## #hydra#

ni8mare said:


> @Abingdonboy


What is this missile?


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## ni8mare

#hydra# said:


> What is this missile?


Helina launcher

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## Vertiti Scrutator

ni8mare said:


> Helina launcher


So, they changed Helina from being tube-launched to rail-launched? Or is this the tube itself ( looks unlikely)??.

If this is the tube (for Helina to be housed) where are the cooling probes? 

I am confused. If anyone has more info, please share.


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> So, they changed Helina from being tube-launched to rail-launched? Or is this the tube itself ( looks unlikely)??.
> 
> If this is the tube (for Helina to be housed) where are the cooling probes?
> 
> I am confused. If anyone has more info, please share.


Looks like the Tube in which the Heline will be housed, you can see the front opening are mounted on hinges ie they will open up to reveal the missile at the time of launch.

Other than that absolute NO info was released as this is the first time anyone has seen this!, we will have to wait till Aeroindia start - to get more info, so patience

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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Looks like the Tube in which the Heline will be housed, you can see the front opening are mounted on hinges ie they will open up to reveal the missile at the time of launch.
> 
> Other than that absolute NO info was released as this is the first time anyone has seen this!, we will have to wait till Aeroindia start - to get more info, so patience



That makes sense. Just curious to see all 'perspectives' of this new 'tube'. Maybe the opening for cooling probes are on the inside (not visible in the picture). At first glance it looks like an 'uninterrupted' tube.

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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> That makes sense. Just curious to see all 'perspectives' of this new 'tube'. Maybe the opening for cooling probes are on the inside (not visible in the picture). At first glance it looks like an 'uninterrupted' tube.


Here is an informative defence writer/blogger

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.ae/

Search for Nag/Helina and pretty much you will get all the info that is currently available + pays to read the comment section of each article as the author gets alot of questions that are related to defence and HE answers most of it with the Info he has ... A pretty good read - you too can ask anything you want, hopefully - he will give u a direct answer ( ie no beating around the bush)

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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Here is an informative defence writer/blogger
> 
> http://trishul-trident.blogspot.ae/
> 
> Search for Nag/Helina and pretty much you will get all the info that is currently available + pays to read the comment section of each article as the author gets alot of questions that are related to defence and HE answers most of it with the Info he has ... A pretty good read - you too can ask anything you want, hopefully - he will give u a direct answer ( ie no beating around the bush)


Thanks. I do read that blog - and hence my confusion. Because he called it a 'rail-launched' Helina!! His 'news' is normally accurate, but his 'views/opinions' are a little pie in the sky

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Hindustani78

*Manohar Parrikar unveils model of HAL’s multi-role chopper*

*HAL aims to indigenously develop 12-ton class IMRH with a service ceiling of around 20,000 feet, 3,500 kg payload and a seating capacity of 24.*
*By: PTI | Bengaluru | Published:February 14, 2017 5:38 pm*

*http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ils-model-of-hals-multi-role-chopper-4524614/*


Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s full scale mock-up of Indian Multi-Role Helicopter (IMRH) was unveiled by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar at the Aero India air show here today. HAL aims to indigenously develop 12-ton class IMRH with a service ceiling of around 20,000 feet, 3,500 kg payload and a seating capacity of 24, the Defence PSU said. The major tasks the chopper can perform include tactical troop transport, casualty evacuation, under slung load, combat search and rescue, anti-surface operations, off-shore operations, VIP/VVIP transport and air ambulance.

The army/IAF version will have a significant hovering and payload capability especially at high altitude, HAL said in a statement.

Parrikar unveiled it in the presence of Goa Chief Minister Laxmikant Paresekar and HAL Chairman and Managing Director T Suvarna Raju and other key officials at a function at HAL Pavilion at the five-day air show which began today.

The proposed IMRH will be powered by twin engines, equipped with automatic flight control system, state-of-the-art mission systems, advanced cockpit display and avionic systems to meet the utility and armed roles of Indian armed forces.

A dedicated Naval variant is also planned, the statement said.

Besides the domestic defence orders, HAL will target export orders, aiming to replace the ageing fleet of similar class of helicopters that are operational in more than 40 air forces around the world, the release said.

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## Abingdonboy

TD 2-4:

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## Kraitcorp

Abingdonboy said:


> TD 2-4:


They all look so beautiful.

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## egodoc222

Rudra looks stunning!!!

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## #hydra#

Abingdonboy said:


> TD 2-4:


Stunning, finally we do have a world class finishing in desi product.

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
15-February, 2017 18:18 IST
*DG Army Aviation Flies the LCH*


On 15 Feb 17, Lt Gen Kanwal Kumar, DG Army Aviation Corps flew the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) at the Aero India 2017. The LCH is indigenously developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and will soon be inducted into the Indian Army. This combat helicopter is light, manoeuvrable and armed with devastating fire power. It has the capability to manoeuvre through narrow valleys, mountains and high altitude areas, providing effective support to ground operations. The LCH, armed with its turret mounted gun, rockets, air to air missiles and air to ground missiles is a potent force multiplier and shall greatly enhance the Indian Army's military capability.




Col Aman Anad

PRO (Army)

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## Abingdonboy



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## RPK

LCH TD-4 with the iconic Trident artwork.

TD-4 has significantly lower weight compared to the previous demonstrators. The cockpit has increased armoured structure and an increase in combat sensors is a distinctive feature of TD-4.

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## Abingdonboy



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## egodoc222

RPK said:


> LCH TD-4 with the iconic Trident artwork.
> 
> TD-4 has significantly lower weight compared to the previous demonstrators. The cockpit has increased armoured structure and an increase in combat sensors is a distinctive feature of TD-4.


Any high res pic?


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## Abingdonboy



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## Water Car Engineer




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## Water Car Engineer

*HTSE 1200*

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## Vertiti Scrutator

Abingdonboy said:


>



Does anyone know if TD4 has been fitted with sensor suite (MAWS. flares etc)?


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## Water Car Engineer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Does anyone know if TD4 has been fitted with sensor suite (MAWS. flares etc)?




No.


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## Abingdonboy



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## Water Car Engineer

*IAF Rudras*

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy




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## indiatester

Popsci had Rudra's (clicked by Marina) as the article title picture. Even though it did not figure in the 15 list, was nice to see its picture out there.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/g2977/most-important-helicopters/
*The 15 Most Important Helicopters of All Time*

*Airplanes rules the skies, but helicopters tackle the most versatile, and often, most dangerous tasks.*






Getty Marina Lystseva
By Eric Tegler
Mar 2, 2017

 


 


 

For thousands of years, humanity envied a bird's ability to get aloft right on the spot. Even when we figured out how to make heavier-than-air machines fly, we couldn't fly freely in any direction like our avian counterparts can. It would take three decades after the Wright Brothers' first flight to realize our closest approximation: what we today call the helicopter.

Some of these metal birds have impacted our lives in ways we instantly recognize; others have a lesser-known legacy. So here is our list—ripe for debate—of the 15 most important helicopters ever.

* Focke-Wulf Fw-61: The World's First Helicopter*






 

*First flight: *June 26, 1936

Germany made rapid progress in vertical flight in the 1930s with the design and construction of the Focke-Wulf FW-61, generally regarded as the first functional helicopter. 

Professor Henrich Focke started designing what would become the Fw-61 in 1932, using experience gained with autogyros from British maker, Cierva Autogiro. He built a model in 1934 to explore a twin-rotor configuration with articulated rotor blades. A 1935 government order allowed Focke to develop a full-scale prototype using the airframe of a training aircraft (Focke-Wulf's Fw-44) to mount rotors on tube steel outriggers on either side of the fuselage and to house a radial engine driving the rotors through gears and shafts. 

Each rotor consisted of three articulated and tapered blades employing cyclic pitch, a core concept of helicopter control. A small propeller mounted in front of the radial was used for cooling only, not thrust. The first of two Fw-61s prototypes flew on 26 June 1936 with pilot, Ewald Rohlfs. Focke's helicopters proved vertical flight and auto-rotation concepts, and gained even more notoriety when German aviatrix, Hanna Reitsch (flying in the picture above), flew one indoors at the Deutschlandhalle sports stadium in Berlin in 1938. 

Getty ullstein bild
* Sikorsky R-4: The First Mass-Produced Helicopter*






 

*First flight: *January 14, 1942

Designed by the legendary Igor Sikorsky and based on his VS300 prototype, the R-4 set the pattern for the conventional helicopter with its single lifting-rotor/single vertical-plane tail rotor configuration. 

Developed and publicly demonstrated in 1940, it was accepted by the U.S. Army in 1942. The R-4 set the first meaningful helicopter records including a 761-mile cross-country flight and service ceiling record of 12,000 feet while boasting a top speed of nearly 90 mph. 

Experimentation with the R-4 began almost immediately with the first deck landing on a ship made in 1944. The same year the first combat rescue by helicopter was made by Army Lieutenant Carter Harman of the 1st Air Commando Group using a YR-4B (pictured above) in the China-Burma-India theater. 

NASA Langley
* The Bell 47: The First Helicopter Certified for Civilian Use*






 

*First flight: *December 8, 1945

Images of the Bell 47 open every episode of M.A.S.H., and it saw Army service in Korea and beyond as the H-13 Sioux. But its most important distinction lies in its approval for civil use by the CAA in 1946. 

The prototype Bell Model 30 designed by Arthur M. Young was the basis for the 47 which first flew in December1945. Powered by a single Franklin or Lycoming six-cylinder piston engine, the Bell 47 proved endlessly adaptable with some 18 variants serving as everything from lunar lander trainers for the Apollo program to cropdusters. In 1958, a Bell 47 leased by Los Angeles TV station, KTLA, made the first successful television news flight transmitting video as the station's new "Telecopter". License-built in Japan and sold worldwide, over 1,000 of the 5,600 produced are still airworthy. 

Getty Keystone
* Aerospatiale SA-313 Alouette II: The First Jet-powered Helicopter *






 

*First flight:* March 12, 1955

In the early 1950s, French state-owned manufacturer, Sud Aviation, experimented with a variety of rotary wing designs including the SA 3120 Alouette light helicopter. While the Alouette prototype broke several helicopter speed and distance records, government support was lukewarm at best. 

To consolidate French backing and further boost performance, Sud paired another design (X.310G) with a single shaft turbine developed by Joseph Szydlowski, the founder of Turbomeca. The resulting Alouette II flew in March 1955, becoming the first production jet-powered helicopter. It began setting records almost immediately, establishing a helicopter altitude record of 26,932 feet in June of that year. An Alouette II drew attention when it became the first helicopter to perform a mountain rescue, evacuating a stricken climber over 13,000 feet up in the Alps, and again in 1957 when it searched for the crew of a crashed Sikorsky S-58 on Mont Blanc (pictured above). 

The SA-313 would go on to serve in 47 armed forces, earning distinction as the first helicopter equipped with anti-tank munitions (Nord S.11s). Over 1,500 Alouette IIs were built through 1975, including license-built versions produced in the U.S. 

Getty REPORTERS ASSOCIES
* Bell UH-1 Iroquois: The Vietnam Legend*






 

*First flight: *October 20, 1956

The UH-1 Iroquois, called the "Huey," is the embodiment of the helicopter for people all over the world. Its association with Vietnam in history and in pop culture assured its status as did its groundbreaking use by American Forces. Over 16,000 military and civilian examples of the Huey family have been built, and production continues today with the military UH-1Y and civilian Bell 412. 

Born as the Bell 204, the two-blade main rotor, single shaft turbine-powered design addressed an early 1950s Army requirement for a medical evacuation/instrument trainer/general utility helicopter. Selected in 1955 from 20 competing designs, it overcame early cabin configuration and insufficient power issues to become the U.S. military's first turbine-powered helicopter. 

Officially named the "Iroquois" by the Army, its familiar "Huey" moniker stems from its early HU-1 designation. The nickname stuck so firmly that Bell actually cast "Huey" on the helicopter's anti-torque pedals. In Vietnam, its use as a MEDEVAC, utility, gunship, and transport aircraft altered the way modern armies fight. The air-assault/air cavalry concept was founded upon the Huey and the insertion/extraction techniques it pioneered underpin special forces operations to this day. 

Anyone who has ever heard the Huey's characteristic two-blade rotor "whump-whump" sound will never forget it. 

Getty Larry Burrows
* Mil Mi-8: The World's Most Produced Helicopter*






 

*First flight:* July 7, 1961

The first Mi-8 transport helicopter flew in July 1961. It's a workhorse, still being produced today with over 17,000 built. In use by approximately 80 countries, the "Hip" (its NATO codename) was reportedly inspired when Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, visited the U.S. in 1959 and took a ride in the Sikorsky S-58 presidential helicopter. Back in mother Russia, he ordered a similar helicopter to be developed in time for a visit by President Eisenhower. 

Designer Mikhail Mil used Khrushchev's desire as an opportunity to develop a new twin-turboshaft transport. Employing two 1,500 shp Isotov TV2 turbines and a newly designed gearbox, the Mi-8 could carry 24 troops or 12 stretchers. Though production began in 1964, the Soviet military didn't really become interested until Vietnam demonstrated the value of rotary-wing aircraft like the Huey. 

By 1967, the Soviets were rushing the Mi-8 into production. Over 35 military/civil variants including the more powerful Mi-17 have been used for everything from transport, armed reconnaissance/gunship, and heavy civilian airlift to dropping radiation-absorbing materials into the failed reactor at the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant. The Mi-8 is not just the world's most produced helicopter, it's among the most produced aircraft period. 

Getty Dmitry Serebryakov
* Boeing CH-47 Chinook: The Tandem Rotor Workhorse*






 

*First flight:* September 21, 1961

The tandem arrangement of the CH-47's main rotors relates directly to its role as a heavy tactical lift helicopter. The 60 ft. diameter rotors mounted on pylons atop each end of the Chinook's fuselage rotate in opposite directions, counter-acting torque and eliminating the need for a tail rotor. All power from the two Lycoming turboshafts on either side of the rear pylon can be used for lift. Independent rotor adjustment makes the CH-47 less sensitive to center-of-gravity changes and more stable when weight is added or removed—all good things when lifting and dropping cargo or troops.

Developed in the late 1950s by Boeing Vertol from the Model 107 (which became the CH-46), the Chinook saw service in Vietnam where in addition to transporting troops, it placed heavy artillery pieces on otherwise inaccessible mountain positions and kept them resupplied with ammunition. The 47's large cargo compartment tempted crews to overload it at first and lifting slingloads underneath required experience. But it became an invaluable tool in Southeast Asia and development of the latest CH-47F shows that it remains so today. The Chinook also happens to be the third fastest helicopter in the world at 196 mph. 

Staff Sgt. Jennifer Spradlin / U.S. Army
* Bell 206 JetRanger: The Civilian Chopper *






 

*First flight:* December 8, 1962

The Bell JetRanger is instantly recognizable to almost anyone raised in the West, a presence in the skies, on television, in films, and in newspapers for five decades. Whether chasing 55 mph-disdaining speeders in the 1970s, providing live local TV news pictures, transporting emergency medical patients, or shuttling celebrities to events, the Bell 206 family has defined the light corporate helicopter. 

Ironically it was born as a military aircraft in the 1960s in response to a requirement for a light observation helicopter. Bell's D-250 twin blade, single turbine prototype (YOH-4A) lost out to the Hughes OH-6 but the company chose to market it as a civilian aircraft, self-funding development of the redesigned, larger 206A which first flew in 1966. By 1973 over 1,000 had been sold on the civil market and the Army had chosen it as a new observation helicopter (OH-58A) while the Navy selected it as a training helicopter (TH-57A). 

Subsequent LongRanger variants increased performance and capacity and over 7,300 have been built. In 1982 a 206L completed the first around-the-world helicopter flight in 29 days. 

Radosław Drożdżewski
* Bell AH-1 Cobra: The First Dedicated Attack Helicopter*






 

*First flight:* September 7, 1965

Attack helicopters are a staple of advanced armies, but it wasn't until the Vietnam conflict that a truly purpose-built attack helicopter – the AH-1 Cobra—was fielded. 

The Army's creation of Air Cavalry Brigades in the early 60s included a requirement for a dedicated attack helicopter. An Advanced Aerial Fire Support System (AAFS) program posited a sophisticated, heavily armored machine. Bell had shown the Army a light attack design (D-255 Iroquois Warrior) based on the Huey in 1962. Though not selected for AAFS, Bell continued work on the concept. 

By 1965 the Army sought an interim gunship for Vietnam duty and Bell responded with its Model 209, dubbed "Cobra". The Cobra featured a narrow forward fuselage with stub-wings and a fighter jet-like stepped-up tandem seating for the gunner (in front) and pilot (behind), a configuration seen in nearly all attack helicopters today. It borrowed components from the UH-1 Huey including its main rotor, turboshaft engine, transmission, tail boom, empennage, and tail rotor. 

Designated AH-1, the Cobra debuted during the 1968 Tet offensive. In addition to escorting transport helicopters and forming "hunter/killer" teams with scout helicopters, it performed a rescue, picking up a downed F-100 Super Sabre pilot who clung to its gun panel door until over friendly territory. The AH-1 inspired attack helicopter designs worldwide and remains in service with the U.S. Marine Corps as the AH-1Z Viper. 

Getty sierrarat
* Westland Lynx: The First Fully Aerobatic Helicopter*






 

*First flight:* March 21, 1971

While the Huey dominated the medium utility/attack market in the late 1960s-early 1970s, Europe looked to develop its own competitors. British manufacturer, Westland, came up with its WG.13 in the late 60s, intended as a replacement for its previous designs, and to challenge the Huey. 

Initially folded into a joint Anglo-French development program, the WG.13 soon devolved to a purely British effort as a naval attack platform. Following its first flight in March1971, the Lynx showed the benefits of its special main rotor design which allowed it to perform loops, rolls, and handle much like a fixed-wing aircraft. It was also fast, setting a speed record in 1972 at 199.9 mph. 

The Lynx debuted in British Army/Navy service in the late 1970s in transport, armed escort, anti-tank, anti-ship, anti-submarine, and other roles and flew during the Falklands War and in Iraq. In 1986, a modified Lynx set a new speed record at 249 mph. The basic Lynx design has evolved into the Augusta Westland AW159 military helicopter. 

Heb
* Sikorsky H-60 Black Hawk: The Modern Huey *






 

*First flight:* October 17, 1974

The Army was already looking to replace the UH-1 Iroquois/Huey in the late 1960s launching the Utility Tactical Transport Aircraft System (UTTAS) program around a common turbine engine (GE's T700). Sikorsky came up with the S-70, a twin engine design it put forward as the YUH-60A for UTTAS. The first prototype flew in October 1974, besting Boeing's YUH-61A in a flyoff competition. 

It would become the UH-60 Black Hawk – named after a Native American warrior. It entered service in 1979 as the Army's new assault/utility helicopter. During its development, the Navy was evaluating replacements for its SH-2 Sea Sprite search and rescue/maritime warfare helicopter. Favoring common acquisition with the Army, the Navy chose Sikorsky's UH-60-based design as the SH-60B Seahawk in 1978. These choices spawned a family of H-60 models including the Coast Guard Jayhawk, special operations Pave Hawk and VH-60N presidential support helicopter. 

More than 4,000 H-60s have been produced and are operating with the armed forces of Japan, Turkey, Israel, and Columbia among others, but the UH-60 gained worldwide fame from the 2001 film _Black Hawk Down._

Terry Moore
* Robinson R-22: The Best-Selling, Low-Cost Helicopter *






 

*First flight:* 1975

Frank Robinson was inspired to embark on a rotary-wing career upon seeing a newspaper photo of Igor Sikorsky hovering in his VS300 prototype. After stints as an engineer at Cessna, Kaman and Hughes, he struck out on his own in 1973, determined to build and market a small, low-cost helicopter.

California-based Robinson Helicopter Company perfected the low-inertia rotor system design of the R-22 in the 1970s, receiving FAA certification in 1979. The lightweight, two-seat, piston-powered R-22 proved perfect as a primary rotary-wing flight trainer, surveying and cattle management tool. Its 150 hp Lycoming O-320 air-cooled four cylinder runs well on inexpensive 100LL aviation gas and the ability to literally tow the helicopter on a trailer behind a pickup truck made it immensely popular, inspiring a family of variants including the R-44 and R-66. 

Nearly 5,000 R-22s had been produced by 2015, and in 2016 a new one cost approximately $290,000, a fraction of the price of other civilian helicopters. 

ullstein bild

* Mil Mi-26: The Largest Series Production Helicopter *






 

*First flight:* December 14, 1977

Reflecting Russia's taste for gigantic things, the Rostvertol Mil Mi-26 is the world's biggest production helicopter. Designed in the 1970s as a heavy-lift transport for military equipment from amphibious-armored personnel carriers to mobile ballistic missiles, the Mi-26 also serves civilian operators in roles from aerial firefighting to lifting outsize freight including a 25-ton block of frozen soil encasing a preserved, 23,000-year-old Woolly Mammoth. 

The Mi-26's eight-blade main rotor is a 105 feet in diameter and converts 22,800 shaft-horsepower from two Lotarev D-136 turbines to thrust. Its tail rotor is about the size of the main rotor of an MD500 light helicopter. The Mil has the load capability of a C-130 with an internal payload of 44,000 lbs (20 tons). It retains the world record for the greatest mass lifted to 2,000 meters (6,562 ft) with125,153.8 lbs in 1982. In 2002, Uncle Sam leased an Mi-26 from a Canadian firm to lift a U.S. Army MH-47E Chinook helicopter (huge in its own right) from a mountain in Afghanistan. 

Dmitry Terekhov
* Northrop-Grumman MQ-8: The First Operational Autonomous Helicopter *






 

*First flight:* 2002

The idea of ship-launched aircraft as scouts for Navy vessels dates to before WWI. Not until the Northrop-Grumman MQ-8B deployed aboard the US Navy frigate, _McInerney _(FFG-8) in 2010 was an autonomous, unmanned rotary-wing scout aircraft operational. 

The RQ-8/MQ-8 arose from the Navy's need to replace aging RQ-2 Pioneer fixed-wing UAV systems. With unmanned systems performing everything from reconnaissance to strike by the late 1990s, the Navy wanted these capabilities in a relatively large unmanned vertical launch/recovery aircraft. 

In 2000, Northrop Grumman's Schweizer Model 330-based design was selected. Developed as the reconnaissance-focused RQ-8A, it met the Navy's range, endurance, and payload goals (125 NM/3 hours/200 lbs) but interest waned until the Army saw merit in the design which evolved into the more capable MQ-8B in 2003. A decade later, the Navy had taken lead again and the Fire Scout/Sea Scout was operating in Afghanistan, in Africa, from Frigates, Littoral Combat Ships, and Coast Guard cutters. 

In September 2012 a Fire Scout set a single-day record, providing ISR coverage for a 24-hour period over the course of 10 flights. 

Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Alan Gragg/U.S. Navy
* Eurocopter X3: The World's Fastest Helicopter *






 

*First flight: *September 6, 2010

The Eurocopter (Airbus Helicopters) X3 is a hybrid helicopter which combines a traditional main rotor powered by two Turbomeca RTM322 turboshafts with a pair of stub wing-mounted propellers to provide additional forward thrust. Each stub wing prop has a different pitch to counteract the torque of the main rotor thereby providing additional directional stability.

With this configuration and with a highly drag-efficient fairing over the shaft and gearbox below the main rotor, the X3 sprinted to 255 knots (293 mph) at 10,000 feet in 2013. That's the fastest speed ever recorded by what could be called a helicopter. Since the X3 is based on the popular Eurocopter AS365 Dauphin, it fits the definition and its importance lies in signifying what the helicopter may become. 

The X3 was a candidate for the U.S. Army's Armed Aerial Scout requirement but it wasn't selected. Eurocopter/Airbus see future applications for the X3's technology in the offshore oil market and high speed inter-city shuttle services to landing venues not usable by fixed-wing turboprops. 

Paul J. Richards

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## Abingdonboy

Myanmar Armed Forces Commander-in-Chief Senior General Min Aung Hlaing checking the India's HAL Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

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## Water Car Engineer

*
IAF Dhruv Mark 3, HAL LUH prototype






IA Rudra*

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## Vertiti Scrutator

@GuardianRED 



GuardianRED said:


> Here is an informative defence writer/blogger
> 
> http://trishul-trident.blogspot.ae/
> 
> Search for Nag/Helina and pretty much you will get all the info that is currently available + pays to read the comment section of each article as the author gets alot of questions that are related to defence and HE answers most of it with the Info he has ... A pretty good read - you too can ask anything you want, hopefully - he will give u a direct answer ( ie no beating around the bush)





Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Thanks. I do read that blog - and hence my confusion. Because he called it a 'rail-launched' Helina!! His 'news' is normally accurate, but his 'views/opinions' are a little pie in the sky



Posted some questions on Helina to Trishul-trident, in an effort to refute some of the claims made on that blog.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3545138702780178046&postID=8709374085410542731

Just wanted to warn you that just because someone says stuff authoritatively, it doesn't mean it's true. The seeker cooling apparatus for IR missiles (Helina etc.) were being completely misrepresented on that blog.


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> @GuardianRED
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posted some questions on Helina to Trishul-trident, in an effort to refute some of the claims made on that blog.
> https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3545138702780178046&postID=8709374085410542731
> 
> Just wanted to warn you that just because someone says stuff authoritatively, it doesn't mean it's true. The seeker cooling apparatus for IR missiles (Helina etc.) were being completely misrepresented on that blog.


I do read his blog BUT doesn't mean i blindly agree with him. Some of comments i take it at face value as there are no other source to back up his clam.

Still how do you conclude that the cooling apparatus for the IIR missile is misrepresented?


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> I do read his blog BUT doesn't mean i blindly agree with him. Some of comments i take it at face value as there are no other source to back up his clam.
> 
> Still how do you conclude that the cooling apparatus for the IIR missile is misrepresented?



Not sure if you had a chance to read the comments on the link I posted (where I conversed under the the name 'Scrutator'); but essentially he has claimed that no missile in the world has an external bottle of coolant cooling the missile's IR seeker (when it's still on launcher). Where in fact almost every prominent missile with IR seeker (Javelin, R-73, Sidewinder etc) does have external coolant injected into the missile to cool the seeker while it's still on the launcher. The question came up in the context of if Helina uses a cooled or uncooled seeker. I even posted the lecture video of the Helina's project director where he clearly states that the launcher provides cooling to the missile for 2 hours per sortie. However, he seems to argue that Helina uses uncooled seeker and further HE helped DRDO design the system with some heat insulation. To be honest I don't have any latest information on Helina's design (if it has changed recently) - but Helina was always designed with a cooled seeker. But his claim that external coolant to any missile's seeker violates laws of physics in pure baloney!!!

I agree with you that one has to consume information from a lot of sources, and then use one's own logic and commonsense to a make up ones mind.

I have seen several people write authoritatively on subjects with little knowledge. The Trishul guy is unique in a way that he does have access to some extraordinary information but also some complete BS (I guess that makes him like everyone else  ).

The worst was when he kept denying for almost a year that there was something called Tejas Mk1A. Only because Ajai Shukla broke the news first (who he hates from the gut) and Trishul dude didn't know if the news was true or not. Subsequently, the defense minister, HAL chief etc kept talking about Mk1A, but this dude kept writing on his blog that Mk1A is a myth; that no more Tejas would be built with F404 engines; that Mk2 with F414 would be the only aircraft built after the initial order of 20/40 of Mk1s. After nearly a year of loud denials, he silently switched to talking about Mk1A 

On the link I posted earlier, you can see that he's blowing a lot of hot air; contradicting himself. And he posted and deleted my last post where I point out his contradictions.


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## Water Car Engineer

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I have seen several people write authoritatively on subjects with little knowledge. The Trishul guy is unique in a way that he does have access to some extraordinary information but also some complete BS (I guess that makes him like everyone else  ).
> 
> The worst was when he kept denying for almost a year that there was something called Tejas Mk1A. Only because Ajai Shukla broke the news first (who he hates from the gut) and Trishul dude didn't know if the news was true or not. Subsequently, the defense minister, HAL chief etc kept talking about Mk1A, but this dude kept writing on his blog that Mk1A is a myth; that no more Tejas would be built with F404 engines; that Mk2 with F414 would be the only aircraft built after the initial order of 20/40. After nearly a year of loud denials, he silently switched to talking about Mk1A
> 
> On the link I posted earlier, you can see that he's blowing a lot of hot air; contradicting himself. And he posted and deleted my last post where I point out his contradictions.



I remember him saying the new PDV was just an arrow, but that turned out to be completely wrong. He does have some inside scoops, without a doubt, but you'll need to scan yourself with his sources. The images he gets are fantastic.

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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


> The images he gets are fantastic.



Agreed. If only he was at least half as good an analyst as he is a photographer!!


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Not sure if you had a chance to read the comments on the link I posted (where I conversed under the the name 'Scrutator'); but essentially he has claimed that no missile in the world has an external bottle of coolant cooling the missile's IR seeker (when it's still on launcher). Where in fact almost every prominent missile with IR seeker (Javelin, R-73, Sidewinder etc) does have external coolant injected into the missile to cool the seeker while it's still on the launcher. The question came up in the context of if Helina uses a cooled or uncooled seeker. I even posted the lecture video of the Helina's project director where he clearly states that the launcher provides cooling to the missile for 2 hours per sortie. However, he seems to argue that Helina uses uncooled seeker and further HE helped DRDO design the system with some heat insulation. To be honest I don't have any latest information on Helina's design (if it has changed recently) - but Helina was always designed with a cooled seeker. But his claim that external coolant to any missile's seeker violates laws of physics in pure baloney!!!
> 
> I agree with you that one has to consume information from a lot of sources, and then use one's own logic and commonsense to a make up ones mind.
> 
> I have seen several people write authoritatively on subjects with little knowledge. The Trishul guy is unique in a way that he does have access to some extraordinary information but also some complete BS (I guess that makes him like everyone else  ).
> 
> The worst was when he kept denying for almost a year that there was something called Tejas Mk1A. Only because Ajai Shukla broke the news first (who he hates from the gut) and Trishul dude didn't know if the news was true or not. Subsequently, the defense minister, HAL chief etc kept talking about Mk1A, but this dude kept writing on his blog that Mk1A is a myth; that no more Tejas would be built with F404 engines; that Mk2 with F414 would be the only aircraft built after the initial order of 20/40. After nearly a year of loud denials, he silently switched to talking about Mk1A
> 
> On the link I posted earlier, you can see that he's blowing a lot of hot air; contradicting himself. And he posted and deleted my last post where I point out his contradictions.


Like i Said Face value

Still, playing the other side of this debate

First , The Tejas MK1A

I have been following his blog for a very long time and also following the LCA program from when it started ( was in college when i saw the PV1 take off - good times).
Now , when what i understand - Prasun doesn't acknowledge any new system unless it officially has some documentation or institution backs it up. (and with good reason as we have the worst defence related journalist in the world with horrible reporting and rehashing same old stories for decades without provided any new info).

Taking the Case of the Tejas, all of us know that in 2010 there was flaws with the Mk1 and that it was underpowered etc etc etc ... It was at that same specs for Mk2 was developed this is backup by engineering drawings , models etc by ADA and HAL (official sources). It was ONLY last Year the that the talks abt the MK1A came about, (many of us was WTF?? .. what abt the Mk2). The sources was only a spokesman from HAL and news reports ... thats abt it!... Even now there is only a list of specs available, other than that no official drawings , models etc , no official confirmation that the NLCA will be the bases for the Mk1A . Only Confirmation we have is that the IAF has sanctioned 80+ frames ... thats it (only then Prasun acknowledge the existence of the Mk1A)

Coming to the Cooling system, sorry im not familiar with the system other than what i read.
From the blog comments

_Scrutator : Most cooled IR seeker based missiles use some kind of external cooling. 
Javelin missile launcher has a Dewar cooling flask on the launcher that cools the IR seeker inside the missile during the target acquisition phase. Once the missile is launched the external connection to the coolant is severed and an internal coolant bottle (much smaller one) is activated._

_Prasun :The cooling flask you’re referring to is not meant to cool the Javelin missile’s seeker, but rather the target acquisition seeker on the re-usable manportable launcher itself, i.e. the same principle used by re-usable shoulder-launched MANPADS launchers. Once electrical power is supplied & the missile is activated, the internal cooler of the Javelin takes over under the lock-on-before-launch mode & it takes about 40 seconds to fully function. On AAMs the coolant is embedded inside the missile itself & no coolant pours in from any outside source. Once any cannister-encased missile like an ATGM leaves its tube, the flight-time is no more than 20 seconds—hardly any time therefore for the seeker to be degraded even at 55 degrees Celsius outside temperature
_
NOW from this site
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/antiarmor/Javelin.html

I read the following:

*M98A1 COMMAND LAUNCH UNIT (CLU)*


*Daysight*. The daysight works much like a telescope and consists of a lens, status indicators, and an eyepiece. The daysight:
Provides the gunner a visible-light image with 4X magnification for target viewing and battlefield surveillance.
Can be used with power off for surveillance only to save battery life.
Is not affected by infrared clutter.



*Night Vision Sight*. The NVS is the primary sight used by the gunner. The NVS is an imaging infrared (I²R) system, used during day or night. It allows the gunner to see during conditions of limited visibility including darkness, obscuration, smoke, fog, inclement weather, and IR clutter. The NVS operates by converting an infrared target image to a visible-light image for the gunner. The NVS consists of the NVS lens, detector Dewar cooler, CLU display and eyepiece provides the gunner with both a 4X (WFOV) and 9X (NFOV) magnification for scanning and target detection.
Detector Dewar cooler (DDC) cools the NVS to the proper operating temperature and converts infrared energy to electrical signals. These signals are sent to the CLU display by way of the signal processor to provide the gunner a picture of the target area


and

The *LTA* serves as the launch platform and carrying container for the missile. It is a single-piece, composite graphite/epoxy design. The launch tube protects the missile from the environment before the missile is launched. All other LTA components mount externally on the tube. Once the missile is launched, the LTA is discarded.







The Battery Coolant Unit : *BCU* has the battery section and a compressed-gas coolant section. The battery section powers the missile electronics before missile launch. The coolant section cools the missile seeker to its operating temperature before missile launch. The BCU is a single-use unit with 4 minutes of operating time and is not rechargeable. Once the missile has been fired, the spent BCU is discarded with the LTA.

Soooo... from what i get from this ....IS... *that the CLU has an internal cooling system Independent from the Launch Tube and the Launch Tube - have an external cooling systems and not internal on the missile/seeker *(Here Prasun reply mostly refers to the CLU initially where its the BCU at the same time warms the missile - What he gets wrong is the just the terminologically and Its NOT INTERNAL)

on other MPATGMs.... whether they have internal cooling or not (ie to counter Prasun comments) Still researching , will get back on that

On the Helina





From the video above , based on prasun comments, YES , the Tube launchers was redesigned from











To this






As u can see , it was pretty much a open tube to now a sealed one

On the cooling system and seeker, just give me time, do some research and come back to you

Cheers


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## Water Car Engineer

GuardianRED said:


> As u can see , it was pretty much a open tube to now a sealed one
> 
> On the cooling system and seeker, just give me time, do some research and come back to you
> 
> Cheers




It was sealed in the old design as well, just not in the models they showed as expo.

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## GuardianRED

Water Car Engineer said:


> It was sealed in the old design as well, just not in the models they showed as expo.


Opps My bad... did see this BUT didnt hit me. 

Did read that one of the main reasons of the redesigns is because of the 4 thrusters on the missile was effecting the other weapon systems and the helicopter itself , Hence went with the single rear thruster ( correct?)


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Soooo... from what i get from this ....IS... that the CLU and the Launch Tube - Both have external cooling systems an not internal


The missiles have BOTH internal and external cooling systems. Internal cooling is very limited and lasts only for the during of the flight. The target acquisition duration is highly variable and hence the cooling is provided externally. 

In general everyone has the right to their opinions, including the Trishul dude - who's free to rant about everything on earth. Things that annoy me the most are stuff like what he said "There can (LoLz!) NEVER be any port for pouring any form of coolant from an external source into any missile. Having such a mechanism is a total violation of the laws of physics." - a classic mixture of ignorance and arrogance!!



GuardianRED said:


> On the cooling system and seeker, just give me time, do some research and come back to you
> 
> Cheers



Thanks. Please do share what you find.

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## Water Car Engineer

old

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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> The missiles have BOTH internal and external cooling systems. Internal cooling is very limited and lasts only for the during of the flight. The target acquisition duration is highly variable and hence the cooling is provided externally.
> 
> In general everyone has the right to their opinions, including the Trishul dude - who's free to rant about everything on earth. Things that annoy me the most are stuff like what he said "There can (LoLz!) NEVER be any port for pouring any form of coolant from an external source into any missile. Having such a mechanism is a total violation of the laws of physics." - a classic mixture of ignorance and arrogance!!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. Please do share what you find.


Sorry did forget to add

*MISSILE OPERATION*





The missile contains the guidance section, mid-body section, warhead section, propulsion section and control actuator section.





The *guidance section* provides target tracking and flight control signals. It is the forward section of the missile and includes the seeker head section and the guidance electronics unit.

The *seeker head section*, known as the seeker, contains the missile imaging infrared (I²R) system and the contact switches to detonate the warhead. The missile I²R system gives the missile its fire-and-forget capability. During flight to the target, the missile I²R system tracks the target and sends target location information to the on board guidance electronics unit.


The *guidance electronics unit (GEU)* serves two functions. It controls the seeker head so it looks at the target and sends signals to the control actuator section to guide the missile to the target during flight.
No mention of an internal cooling system, unless u can provided another source


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Opps My bad... did see this BUT didnt hit me.
> 
> Did read that one of the main reasons of the redesigns is because of the 4 thrusters on the missile was effecting the other weapon systems and the helicopter itself , Hence went with the single rear thruster ( correct?)



Incorrect! You should see this video from 6 years ago....





The Helina's project director clearly states that using Nag's configuration for Helina is only a quick fix, but in parallel they are redesigning the missile to be a regular Heli lauched ATGM. Nag's 4 thrusters were required to do a terminal cobra act; Helina doesn't need that, as it is already launched from an altitude. Trishul dude makes up a lot of shit very confidently - and folks mistake his confidence as making sense!!

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## Water Car Engineer

GuardianRED said:


> Opps My bad... did see this BUT didnt hit me.
> 
> Did read that one of the main reasons of the redesigns is because of the 4 thrusters on the missile was effecting the other weapon systems and the helicopter itself ,* Hence went with the single rear thruster ( correct?)*




Yeah, well, regarding the launcher, I think they were playing around with the design.






This one here isnt sealed. I am assuming the latest one is the finalized design.



Vertiti Scrutator said:


> The Helina's project director clearly states that using Nag's configuration for Helina is only a quick fix, but in parallel they are redesigning the missile to be a regular Heli lauched ATGM. Nag's 4 thrusters were required to do a terminal cobra act; Helina doesn't need that, as it is already launched from an altitude. Trishul dude makes up a lot of shit very confidently - and folks mistake his confidence as making sense!!



That tidbit didnt actually come from Trishual, I cant remember where it came form, but remember it was a reliable source.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Sorry did forget to add
> 
> *MISSILE OPERATION*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The missile contains the guidance section, mid-body section, warhead section, propulsion section and control actuator section.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The *guidance section* provides target tracking and flight control signals. It is the forward section of the missile and includes the seeker head section and the guidance electronics unit.
> 
> The *seeker head section*, known as the seeker, contains the missile imaging infrared (I²R) system and the contact switches to detonate the warhead. The missile I²R system gives the missile its fire-and-forget capability. During flight to the target, the missile I²R system tracks the target and sends target location information to the on board guidance electronics unit.
> 
> 
> The *guidance electronics unit (GEU)* serves two functions. It controls the seeker head so it looks at the target and sends signals to the control actuator section to guide the missile to the target during flight.
> No mention of an internal cooling system, unless u can provided another source



I was hoping you would have read the conversation on Trishul blog already. Even the Trishul dude agrees that there's an internal coolant for Javelin. But here's the source (which I already quoted in the conversation):

(From: Center for Technology and National Security Policy, National Defense University)
www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA454087

Excerpt: "When the missile is fired, this external connection is broken and coolant gas is supplied internally by an onboard argon gas bottle"

The topic of contention with the Trishul dude was about the external coolant - which he claims does not exist anywhere in the world!!



Water Car Engineer said:


> That tidbit didnt actually come from Trishual, I cant remember where it came form, but remember it was a reliable source.



The thrusters being a problem was known even before the tests were conducted - I doubt that they had to actually perform the test to realize that the thrusters would spew heat/smoke on the windshields. They went ahead with the test to verify the datalinks, LOAL etc. - while the redesign was happening in parallel. There can be no other reliable source than the project director lecturing on camera with slides

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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> Incorrect! You should see this video from 6 years ago....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Helina's project director clearly states that using Nag's configuration for Helina is only a quick fix, but in parallel they are redesigning the missile to be a regular Heli lauched ATGM. Nag's 4 thrusters were required to do a terminal cobra act; Helina doesn't need that, as it is already launched from an altitude. Trishul dude makes up a lot of shit very confidently - and folks mistake his confidence as making sense!!


Pal... First like you Said the Video IS 6 Years old

A lot has changed up to now.

1) Cooling System as per the video is












- The cooling system - HP bottle (400/600bar isn't clear) is present in the Launcher Interface unit (LIU) as a sub system with only 2 Hrs operation (as far as he mentioned no built in cooling system in the missile, only on the LIU)
- Each LIU has only 2 Missile Tubes ( for each helicopter max 4 LIUs with Total of Only 8 Missiles)
- He clearly states that this LIU setup is for captive flight test and "no worries about the system", thus could be there is no possible parallel designs at works

Present 2017 -

- the Tube design is changed with the LIU redesigned to carry 4 Tubes ( for each helicopter max 4 LIUs with Total of 16 Missiles)
- More researched needed to know what cooling system is in place (other than prasun)

2) On the Thrushers

Design of the helina 2 phases
A) Using existing aerodynamic design of the NAG, increase the range using sustainer/booster, adding LRUs such as Fibreoptic / RF link
B) Improvement of the Seeker for 7km target acquisition

He doesn't mention any parallel program 

Present 2017
- We see that the side thruster is for gone for a rear one.

More on this later

Nite


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Pal... First like you Said the Video IS 6 Years old
> 
> A lot has changed up to now.


I never disagreed with that notion. I too am trying to find out if and what might have changed.....



GuardianRED said:


> 1) Cooling System as per the video is
> View attachment 382601
> 
> View attachment 382605
> 
> View attachment 382607
> 
> - The cooling system - HP bottle (400/600bar isn't clear) is present in the Launcher Interface unit (LIU) as a sub system with only 2 Hrs operation (as far as he mentioned no built in cooling system in the missile, only on the LIU)


I have never mentioned anywhere that I am sure about Helina's internal cooling system - I only said that I heard of some chatter about an indigenously developed miniature cryogenic cooler for internal use while I had also heard that they might use Cobham's miniature cryogenic cooler. I haven't been able to corroborate either of these - but given how the world of heat seeking missiles work (and the fact that Helina/Nag seekers have been having problems getting a heat lock), I feel it would be a crime not to have an internal cryogenic cooler. It's not out of the world of credulity that a missile with an IR seeker has an internal cryo cooler (it's actually a 50 years old technology - both external and internal cooling!!!).

The external cooling system is a given from the lecture (something the Trishul dude seems to be contesting for no logical reason), where he clearly talks about the 2 hrs limit - obviously predicated by the bottle size embedded in the launcher.



GuardianRED said:


> - Each LIU has only 2 Missile Tubes ( for each helicopter max 4 LIUs with Total of Only 8 Missiles)
> - He clearly states that this LIU setup is for captive flight test and "no worries about the system", thus could be there is no possible parallel designs at works
> 
> 2) On the Thrushers
> 
> Design of the helina 2 phases
> A) Using existing aerodynamic design of the NAG, increase the range using sustainer/booster, adding LRUs such as Fibreoptic / RF link
> B) Improvement of the Seeker for 7km target acquisition
> 
> He doesn't mention any parallel program
> 
> Present 2017
> - We see that the side thruster is for gone for a rear one.


Check the timeline of events!
First Helina missile fired from Dhruv/Rudra was in latter part of 2014. Helina without thrusters started appearing in about a years time and began to be tested!
You would agree that propulsion and guidance are the most important and complicated things in a missile (well what else is left other than the explosive!!), right? You really think that they saw the test results by the end of 2014, decided to redesign both the propulsion and guidance (remember that the 4 thrusters were essentially for maneuvering). Now with the new design all maneuvering (including the terminal) is accomplished via the fins alone!!

Do you reasonably think that DRDO realized a problem, did all the troubleshooting, got approvals for redesign and accomplished all the hardware and software changes in less than a year's time? And lo behold, got the missile working immediately after (when the first version took several decades in the making)?? Contrast that to Pinaka Mk2, which involved just filling the tube with a new propellant and it took several years in the making!!

The redesign was obviously in the works from long before (in parallel)!!

If the designers/engineers didn't know that the thrusters would affect the windshield of the helicopter before they actually tested it, then we have a much bigger problem concerning their ability to think and design things!!!




GuardianRED said:


> Present 2017 -
> 
> - the Tube design is changed with the LIU redesigned to carry 4 Tubes ( for each helicopter max 4 LIUs with Total of 16 Missiles)


The quad launcher is still not a reality. There's no official confirmation of this. However it may be logical to think that a quad launcher maybe required for LCH (may not be so for Rudra - as the weight limits are clearly mentioned in the lecture). Even on LCH, I doubt if it will carry 16 Helinas. It maybe more like 2 quad launchers closer to the fuselage and twin launchers (Helina or Mistral) on the extremities.




GuardianRED said:


> - More researched needed to know what cooling system is in place (other than prasun)


You bet!! Will keep you posted if I find any new information.
But let's not fall for illogical nonsense peddled by charlatans. Funny thing is that the Trishul dude claims he spent nearly 3 months designing the cooling aspects of the Nag/Helina launchers (that actually went into Dhruvastra and Namica), and he had no idea about how heat seeking missile launchers have been working for the last 50 years!!! He does have a tendency for grandiosity and lying.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Like i Said Face value
> 
> Still, playing the other side of this debate
> 
> First , The Tejas MK1A
> 
> I have been following his blog for a very long time and also following the LCA program from when it started ( was in college when i saw the PV1 take off - good times).
> Now , when what i understand - Prasun doesn't acknowledge any new system unless it officially has some documentation or institution backs it up. (and with good reason as we have the worst defence related journalist in the world with horrible reporting and rehashing same old stories for decades without provided any new info).
> 
> Taking the Case of the Tejas, all of us know that in 2010 there was flaws with the Mk1 and that it was underpowered etc etc etc ... It was at that same specs for Mk2 was developed this is backup by engineering drawings , models etc by ADA and HAL (official sources). It was ONLY last Year the that the talks abt the MK1A came about, (many of us was WTF?? .. what abt the Mk2). The sources was only a spokesman from HAL and news reports ... thats abt it!... Even now there is only a list of specs available, other than that no official drawings , models etc , no official confirmation that the NLCA will be the bases for the Mk1A . Only Confirmation we have is that the IAF has sanctioned 80+ frames ... thats it (only then Prasun acknowledge the existence of the Mk1A)



Ajai Shukla broke the initial story about Mk1A (I am not a big fan of Ajai Shukla either - especially because his smug leftist political views. He kept claiming on all TV channels immediately after the Pathankot attack that he knows Indian army inside-out and knows very well that India has no capability to do commando type operations - he had to eat his words after the surgical strikes!!). Anyways...there's a difference between opinions and news.

Trishul guy has an arrogant habit of trash talking every other person on earth. When everyone was surprised about Mk1A annoucement, he went after Ajai Shukla as fake news creator - and just for the sake of his ego kept pushing the story of Mk1A being a myth for far too long. Even when HAL was making official statements on Mk1A, he kept saying that he knows for sure that all that is just a myth. It's ok for someone to react with WTF, when something new comes into being - but we accept the news unless we know for sure that it's fake. In the case of Mk1A, nothing was technologically impossible - but this guy kept on ranting that he knows the inside of HAL and MOD and is absolutely sure there no such thing as Mk1A, only F414 engines are being ordered blah blah blah!!

Two years ago, he said Nag/Namica are dead and the project has been scrapped. Now he claims that Army will be ordering 7000 Nag missiles!!
I have seen people question his logic and he deflects the questions with more illogical nonsense.

Just as an example: He claimed recently that LCH is a 7.5 tonne helicopter while ALH is only 5.5 tonne. I asked him how can the same set of engines and rotor blades produce two different lifting capabilities. He started BS'ing about altitudes, weight of the helo etc!! But the fact remains that irrespective of the individual weights of the airframes, the Max take off weight has to be same for the same Engines and Rotor blades (at a given altitude)!! If his claim of LCH MTOW is true then LCH can carry more weapons payload than Tejas can!!!


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I never disagreed with that notion. I too am trying to find out if and what might have changed.....
> 
> 
> I have never mentioned anywhere that I am sure about Helina's internal cooling system - I only said that I heard of some chatter about an indigenously developed miniature cryogenic cooler for internal use while I had also heard that they might use Cobham's miniature cryogenic cooler. I haven't been able to corroborate either of these - but given how the world of heat seeking missiles work (and the fact that Helina/Nag seekers have been having problems getting a heat lock), I feel it would be a crime not to have an internal cryogenic cooler. It's not out of the world of credulity that a missile with an IR seeker has an internal cryo cooler (it's actually a 50 years old technology - both external and internal cooling!!!).
> 
> The external cooling system is a given from the lecture (something the Trishul dude seems to be contesting for no logical reason), where he clearly talks about the 2 hrs limit - obviously predicated by the bottle size embedded in the launcher.
> 
> 
> Check the timeline of events!
> First Helina missile fired from Dhruv/Rudra was in latter part of 2014. Helina without thrusters started appearing in about a years time and began to be tested!
> You would agree that propulsion and guidance are the most important and complicated things in a missile (well what else is left other than the explosive!!), right? You really think that they saw the test results by the end of 2014, decided to redesign both the propulsion and guidance (remember that the 4 thrusters were essentially for maneuvering). Now with the new design all maneuvering (including the terminal) is accomplished via the fins alone!!
> 
> Do you reasonably think that DRDO realized a problem, did all the troubleshooting, got approvals for redesign and accomplished all the hardware and software changes in less than a year's time? And lo behold, got the missile working immediately after (when the first version took several decades in the making)?? Contrast that to Pinaka Mk2, which involved just filling the tube with a new propellant and it took several years in the making!!
> 
> The redesign was obviously in the works from long before (in parallel)!!
> 
> If the designers/engineers didn't know that the thrusters would affect the windshield of the helicopter before they actually tested it, then we have a much bigger problem concerning their ability to think and design things!!!
> 
> 
> 
> The quad launcher is still not a reality. There's no official confirmation of this. However it may be logical to think that a quad launcher maybe required for LCH (may not be so for Rudra - as the weight limits are clearly mentioned in the lecture). Even on LCH, I doubt if it will carry 16 Helinas. It maybe more like 2 quad launchers closer to the fuselage and twin launchers (Helina or Mistral) on the extremities.
> 
> 
> 
> You bet!! Will keep you posted if I find any new information.
> But let's not fall for illogical nonsense peddled by charlatans. Funny thing is that the Trishul dude claims he spent nearly 3 months designing the cooling aspects of the Nag/Helina launchers (that actually went into Dhruvastra and Namica), and he had no idea about how heat seeking missile launchers have been working for the last 50 years!!! He does have a tendency for grandiosity and lying.


Just a small reply

*First The ground test and launch started at the end of 2011*






*Bangalore/Hyderabad: *Helina, the helicopter version of anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) Nag, being developed indigenously for Rudra – the Advanced Light Helicopter's Weapon System Integration version (ALH-WSI) -- will undergo full range trials next month. During this lock-on-after-launch (LOAL) mode trials, to be conducted from a ground-based launcher, Helina's capability to establish full range in excess of 7 km will be tested. (In the LOAL mode, the gunner can correct the course of the missile mid-way after it is fired, update the target position and lock on to it through a two-way RF data link.)
Around 60 scientists, including 12 directly associated with the project, are gearing up at various critical labs of the Missile Complex in Hyderabad for this crucial ground trials, to to be held at the Chandan firing ranges in Pokhran. Sources claim that this could be the last trials for the air-to-ground missile Helina from a ground launcher. "*We will have guided flight tests from Rudra against a tank-size later. Integration of the Helina's Fire Control System (FCS) on Rudra is planned during the second half of 2012," sources said.*
Helina has been taken up as a fast-track mission mode project by Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) to extend the range of Nag from 4 km to in excess of 7 km. The Rs 55-crore project started in 2008 April, will initially help Army Aviation form one Squadron of Rudra choppers with Helinas in LOAL configuration. * So far two missiles have been fired from ground launchers over a range of 4.2 km (K K Ranges in Ahmednagar, near Pune). At Pokhran, one Helina was fired from the out-board weapon station location on Rudra for the first time. The chopper was hovering at an altitude of approximately 25-meter above ground.*
A stand-alone FC for Helina has been developed by Research Centre Imarat (RCI), Hyderabad and proven during the ground firing. The two-way data link has also been developed for the first time by RCI in association with Astra Microwave, Hyderabad.
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) sources told Express that, they as the system and other armaments integrators for Rudra, are part of a Ministry of Defence-appointed team, which is currently evaluating MBDA's PARS 3 missile and Rafael's Spike. "The team has visited the Rafael facility and witnessed the trials. They will now head for MBDA installation. The final call will be taken by the Defence Procurement Board, based on the team's recommendations," sources said.
HAL says that the pilots' report of Helina's Rudra trials have been sent to DRDL. "These are crucial inputs that will help the DRDL to fine-tune the missile. Services want proven platforms first and hence PARS 3 and Spike were short-listed. Helina will continue as an alternate and parallel ATGM programme as we are very keen to have an indigenous missile onboard," HAL sources said.

*http://tarmak007.blogspot.ae/2011/12/helina-ready-for-full-range-ground.html*

and the redesign one - 2015 - 2016
*




*
and Quad launcher is in the works






will reply to others soon


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Just a small reply
> 
> *First The ground test and launch started at the end of 2011*



I know this 
This is ground based test (in 2011) of the Nag missile. The helicopter based test of Helina wasn't conducted until June 2014. If the redesign was prompted by physically noticing windshield degradation, then the stimulus wouldn't have come until after June 2014!! 2015-2016 is too soon for a redesigned missile to be tested if the flaw was only discovered in 2014!! I am not saying that the thrusters-windshield were not an issue; I am just saying that it was known intuitively long before the tests were underway!

The Project Director (Vara Prasad) states that early on they had made the decision to split the project into 2 parallel efforts (he's not very articulate on the nuances though). The 4-side-thruster based Helina and the non-side-thruster Helina came out pretty close to each other - clearly suggesting that they were in parallel development from the beginning.



GuardianRED said:


>



I can't believe you fell for that fake picture; thought you were more discerning 
That's a picture of LAHAT missile quad launcher that the Tarmak folks mischievously photoshopped 'Helina' name onto it!! This picture became is little more famous because the DRDO site stupidly linked to this page from their 'Media' page. btw...the DRDO's media page just links to any news article that mentions DRDO (probably some automated crap). I have seen several fake stories being linked too! This picture is one of them.

Here's the original picture before the photoshopping (original article link also provided below)!!






http://www.army-technology.com/proj...ack-missile/laser-homing-attack-missile3.html


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## Vertiti Scrutator

@Water Car Engineer
@GuardianRED

Do you guys know if the most recent form of Nag missile (with maybe the 4 thrusters still on) also have the RF datalink that could be used for LOAL??

Ideally Nag missile should be the make-shift Helina missile (with RF link, 7+ km range) with probably the thrusters still on!! It's so hard to get info on Nag/Helina missiles - seems like the fanboys mostly like the BIG missiles  Even the so called 'experts' (Trishul et al) seem to make up stories without actually getting some hard info on these tiny missiles!!! I feel there's roughly a need for 10,000 Nags and 10.000 Helinas!! That's a cool $2+ billion in orders (at least going by the international prices for similar missiles)


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I know this
> This is ground based test (in 2011) of the Nag missile. The helicopter based test of Helina wasn't conducted until June 2014. If the redesign was prompted by physically noticing windshield degradation, then the stimulus wouldn't have come until after June 2014!! 2015-2016 is too soon for a redesigned missile to be tested if the flaw was only discovered in 2014!! I am not saying that the thrusters-windshield were not an issue; I am just saying that it was known intuitively long before the tests were underway!
> 
> The Project Director (Vara Prasad) states that early on they had made the decision to split the project into 2 parallel efforts (he's not very articulate on the nuances though). The 4-side-thruster based Helina and the non-side-thruster Helina came out pretty close to each other - clearly suggesting that they were in parallel development from the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe you fell for that fake picture; thought you were more discerning
> That's a picture of LAHAT missile quad launcher that the Tarmak folks mischievously photoshopped 'Helina' name onto it!! This picture became is little more famous because the DRDO site stupidly linked to this page from their 'Media' page. btw...the DRDO's media page just links to any news article that mentions DRDO (probably some automated crap). I have seen several fake stories being linked too! This picture is one of them.
> 
> Here's the original picture before the photoshopping (original article link also provided below)!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.army-technology.com/proj...ack-missile/laser-homing-attack-missile3.html


Sorry YOu have made a mistake and need to correct your time line
U didnt read the article, posted Dec, 2011

In 2011 , that air launch was conducted much before (NOT 2014) ,

_ *So far two missiles have been fired from ground launchers over a range of 4.2 km (K K Ranges in Ahmednagar, near Pune). At Pokhran, one Helina was fired from the out-board weapon station location on Rudra for the first time. The chopper was hovering at an altitude of approximately 25-meter above ground.

"We will have guided flight tests from Rudra against a tank-size later. Integration of the Helina's Fire Control System (FCS) on Rudra is planned during the second half of 2012," sources said.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.ae/2011/12/helina-ready-for-full-range-ground.html

HECK see Post #584 of this very thread, photos posted April 2012 of flights test then 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/hal-lch-updates-and-discussions.343654/page-39*_
Thus , with conducted test, the decision to redesign the thrusters fits the timeline

On Quad, it did look fishy to me BUT its not Tamark - he pretty good as a source and no photoshopped, its from another site


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> @Water Car Engineer
> @GuardianRED
> 
> Do you guys know if the most recent form of Nag missile (with maybe the 4 thrusters still on) also have the RF datalink that could be used for LOAL??
> 
> Ideally Nag missile should be the make-shift Helina missile (with RF link, 7+ km range) with probably the thrusters still on!! It's so hard to get info on Nag/Helina missiles - seems like the fanboys mostly like the BIG missiles  Even the so called 'experts' (Trishul et al) seem to make up stories without actually getting some hard info on these tiny missiles!!! I feel there's roughly a need for 10,000 Nags and 10.000 Helinas!! That's a cool $2+ billion in orders (at least going by the international prices for similar missiles)


Only Prasun has posted any new info on the NAG and its carrier



















http://trishul-trident.blogspot.ae/...00+05:30&max-results=20&start=3&by-date=false


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Sorry YOu have made a mistake and need to correct your time line
> U didnt read the article, posted Dec, 2011
> 
> In 2011 , that air launch was conducted much before (NOT 2014) ,
> 
> _ *So far two missiles have been fired from ground launchers over a range of 4.2 km (K K Ranges in Ahmednagar, near Pune). At Pokhran, one Helina was fired from the out-board weapon station location on Rudra for the first time. The chopper was hovering at an altitude of approximately 25-meter above ground.
> 
> "We will have guided flight tests from Rudra against a tank-size later. Integration of the Helina's Fire Control System (FCS) on Rudra is planned during the second half of 2012," sources said.
> 
> http://tarmak007.blogspot.ae/2011/12/helina-ready-for-full-range-ground.html
> 
> HECK see Post #584 of this very thread, photos posted April 2012 of flights test then
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/hal-lch-updates-and-discussions.343654/page-39*_
> Thus , with conducted test, the decision to redesign the thrusters fits the timeline
> 
> On Quad, it did look fishy to me BUT its not Tamark - he pretty good as a source and no photoshopped, its from another site


I had read on a news site that the 2011 test was actually Nag missile that got launched from the helo tubes - not the stretched Helina - and the test had failed! (I need to google and find that link to show you). The actual Helina missile wasn't ready then - even though some blogs called it as Helina!
My contention is that the decision to remove the side thrusters was taken before any tests were conducted - and parallel design effort was underway. The best way to clear this up is to ask someone in DRDO as to when they realized the flaw. I have a feeling that even if they realized the flaw only after the tests were conducted, it would be quite foolish of them to admit that they hadn't realized that until after 
As I said earlier, the technical details on Nag/Helina development have generally been scant. The news reports and bloggers generally use interchangeable terms to add to the confusion!! Like, other than that lecture from the project director, there's not much information or discussion on the inner technical details!!

Regarding the Quad pack, I personally hadn't traced it's origin back to Tarmak, but I have read folks attribute the blame on Tarmak for this picture being circulated.



GuardianRED said:


> Only Prasun has posted any new info on the NAG and its carrier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://trishul-trident.blogspot.ae/search?q=NAG&updated-max=2016-10-23T01:10:00+05:30&max-results=20&start=3&by-date=false


Even this one does not give the detail I was looking for. The most curious thing I noticed was in the recent interview of DRDO Director (Christopher) - he either used Nag and Helina names interchangeably or Nag actually does have an extended range up to 7 kms (see his response in the interview in the link below)

drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/Public/dpi/articles/secretary-interview-27022017.pdf


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> I had read on a news site that the 2011 test was actually Nag missile that got launched from the helo tubes - not the stretched Helina - and the test had failed! (I need to google and find that link to show you). The actual Helina missile wasn't ready then - even though some blogs called it as Helina!
> My contention is that the decision to remove the side thrusters was taken before any tests were conducted - and parallel design effort was underway. The best way to clear this up is to ask someone in DRDO as to when they realized the flaw. I have a feeling that even if they realized the flaw only after the tests were conducted, it would be quite foolish of them to admit that they hadn't realized that until after
> As I said earlier, the technical details on Nag/Helina development have generally been scant. The news reports and bloggers generally use interchangeable terms to add to the confusion!! Like, other than that lecture from the project director, there's not much information or discussion on the inner technical details!!
> 
> Regarding the Quad pack, I personally hadn't traced it's origin back to Tarmak, but I have read folks attribute the blame on Tarmak for this picture being circulated.
> 
> 
> Even this one does not give the detail I was looking for. The most curious thing I noticed was in the recent interview of DRDO Director (Christopher) - he either used Nag and Helina names interchangeably or Nag actually does have an extended range up to 7 kms (see his response in the interview in the link below)
> 
> drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/Public/dpi/articles/secretary-interview-27022017.pdf


Well if you see the presentation from that engineer in the video you posted is from AeroIndia2011, which will would have being the beginning of the year (feb 2011) , he does state that the aerodynamics of the NAG is taken as the bases for the HELINA and flight test is to start. 

So it can easily said that the test of the Helina Started in 2011 and just evolved to what it is today

The NAG and its carrier the NAMICA too have changed to them when they were first shown to now its present form

Yes difficult to get new info. Prasun is to only one to post something to date .


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Well if you see the presentation from that engineer in the video you posted is from AeroIndia2011, which will would have being the beginning of the year (feb 2011) , he does state that the aerodynamics of the NAG is taken as the bases for the HELINA and flight test is to start.
> 
> So it can easily said that the test of the Helina Started in 2011 and just evolved to what it is today
> 
> The NAG and its carrier the NAMICA too have changed to them when they were first shown to now its present form
> 
> Yes difficult to get new info. Prasun is to only one to post something to date .


The project director wasn't very clear but I heard him say that using Nag's aerodynamics etc was ONE path of development. He starts off by saying that a new missile is required, yet for most-immediate needs we'll use Nag as the basis. Long before the new Helina came into being, I was always under the impression that the parallel design effort was underway: at least I did not see a new missile and retroactively interpret his lecture in a different way. Especially given that the long term goal is to go the NLOS range, fighter jet launchable etc - the side thrusters are very fuel inefficient!!

Another logical thing to note is that even if the first stretched Helina missile was ready few months after the lecture, it is unlikely it would be immediately tested on a helicopter!! There will need to be several rounds (years) of ground based tests before a helicopter and its crew is put at risk.

I think the final version of Helina doesn't just seal of the side thrusters, it probably added a thrust vectoring nozzle to the engine. I am purely speculating here (technical details are hard to come by); if you look at the new Helina missile, it's rocket nozzle protrudes out of the body - it is possible there's a gimbal at the end that might be moving the nozzle (at least in one axis to accomplish the cobra maneuver). Would be great if someone from DRDO can confirm or deny it.


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Well if you see the presentation from that engineer in the video you posted is from AeroIndia2011, which will would have being the beginning of the year (feb 2011) , he does state that the aerodynamics of the NAG is taken as the bases for the HELINA and flight test is to start.
> 
> So it can easily said that the test of the Helina Started in 2011 and just evolved to what it is today
> 
> The NAG and its carrier the NAMICA too have changed to them when they were first shown to now its present form
> 
> Yes difficult to get new info. Prasun is to only one to post something to date .





Vertiti Scrutator said:


> The project director wasn't very clear but I heard him say that using Nag's aerodynamics etc was ONE path of development. He starts off by saying that a new missile is required, yet for most-immediate needs we'll use Nag as the basis. Long before the new Helina came into being, I was always under the impression that the parallel design effort was underway: at least I did not see a new missile and retroactively interpret his lecture in a different way. Especially given that the long term goal is to go the NLOS range, fighter jet launchable etc - the side thrusters are very fuel inefficient!!
> 
> Another logical thing to note is that even if the first stretched Helina missile was ready few months after the lecture, it is unlikely it would be immediately tested on a helicopter!! There will need to be several rounds (years) of ground based tests before a helicopter and its crew is put at risk.
> 
> I think the final version of Helina doesn't just seal of the side thrusters, it probably added a thrust vectoring nozzle to the engine. I am purely speculating here (technical details are hard to come by); if you look at the new Helina missile, it's rocket nozzle protrudes out of the body - it is possible there's a gimbal at the end that might be moving the nozzle (at least in one axis to accomplish the cobra maneuver). Would be great if someone from DRDO can confirm or deny it.



New Stand-off Anti-tank Guided Missile (SANT) development is underway!!
I only hope they make this one Rail-launched and not Tube-launched.


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## GuardianRED

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> New Stand-off Anti-tank Guided Missile (SANT) development is underway!!
> I only hope they make this one Rail-launched and not Tube-launched.


Source Pls


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## Vertiti Scrutator

GuardianRED said:


> Source Pls


http://164.100.47.193/lsscommittee/Defence/16_Defence_30.pdf

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## samy1618

Vertiti Scrutator said:


> http://164.100.47.193/lsscommittee/Defence/16_Defence_30.pdf


Have read this pdf bur didn't find about SANT can u mentioned the page. But it's an in depth knowledge of things which we haven't even mentioned in these forums like LCA MARK -3


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## GuardianRED

samy1618 said:


> Have read this pdf bur didn't find about SANT can u mentioned the page. But it's an in depth knowledge of things which we haven't even mentioned in these forums like LCA MARK -3


Just a line on new projects - Pg 80-81 Pt 15 in the document
Who ever type this Doc is a MESS!!!... other parts of the doc, part of the LCA program is know as Phase 3. so most likely is Phase 3 and not Mk 3


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## Vertiti Scrutator

samy1618 said:


> Have read this pdf bur didn't find about SANT can u mentioned the page. But it's an in depth knowledge of things which we haven't even mentioned in these forums like LCA MARK -3


Just do a 'Find' for SANT... (unless you're reading a print out)


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## Abingdonboy



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## Water Car Engineer




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## Vertiti Scrutator

Water Car Engineer said:


>


I saw this video earlier. Thought the presentation lacked substance. It appeared a little amateurish and fanboyish!! No wonder no one asked any questions at the end!!!


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## Abingdonboy

Swedish Defence Minister with the Rudra at HAL's complex:

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## Hindustani78

During fiscal 2016-17 the company received orders worth 21,000 crore that included 12 Dornier-228 aircraft for the Indian Navy; 32 ALH light helicopters for the Navy and the Coast Guard; and AL-31 FP engines for the fighter Sukhoi-30 MkI.

The year also saw the first flight of two HAL-designed aircraft—basic trainer HTT-40 and the Light Utility Helicopter LUH, besides carriage trials of the indigenous light fighter LCA fixed with a mid-air refuelling probe.

On the aeroengines front, HAL launched the metal cutting for its 1200-kW HTSE 1200 turboshaft engine.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer



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## Hindustani78

The Light Utility Helicopter's second prototype, LUH PT2, which made its first flight on May 23 from HAL airport, Bengaluru. | Photo Credit:  Special Arrangement 

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...irst-flight/article18530799.ece?homepage=true

The Light Utility Helicopter's second prototype, LUH PT2, made its first flight here on Monday and flew smoothly for 22 minutes, its creator Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd said on Tuesday. The flight was described as snag-free.

The three-tonne-class LUH is being developed as a reconnaissance and surveillance vehicle for military and civil users.

HAL said it expects to freeze the helicopter's design by the end of this year. After necessary certification it would manufacture it along with its components at its facility coming up in Tumakuru.

Towards that, it was improving the flight envelop or range of PT1 and would conduct a few more test flights of the two versions in the coming months.


The second prototype aircraft has a modified tail boom and other improvements over PT1, which first flew on September 6, 2016 and later during the February Aero India 2017.

HAL CMD T. Suvarna Raju called it a part of their Make in India campaign in rotary and fixed-wing aircraft.

When ready, the LUH is designed to fly 350 km at a speed of 220 kmph; it can reach a maximum height of 6.5 km and carry a payload of 400 kg. 

Chief Test Pilot Wing Cdr (retd) Unni K. Pillai and Test Pilot Wing Cdr (retd) Anil Bhambhani piloted the helicopter.

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## Abingdonboy

Updates on LUH program:

- 2nd prototype (with modified tailboom) flew within 8 months of 1st prototype's first flight
- 3rd (and final) prototype will be ready within the next 5 months
- Design will be frozen by the end of 2017
- IOC expected in 2018
- Production from new greenfield plant (Tumkur) in 2019-20 (intially 30/year, from 2023 60/year under phase 2)

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## Hindustani78

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/613285/light-utility-helicopter-pt-2.html
The second prototype of the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH PT-2) completed its maiden flight at the premises of state-owned aviation major, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) here on Monday.

Coming close on the heels of the maiden flight of HTT-40 (PT-2), the helicopter's first flight was flown by Chief Test Pilot Wing Cdr (Retd) Unni K Pillai and Test Pilot Wing Cdr (Retd) Anil Bhambhani. The flight duration was 22 minutes. Both the pilots reported zero snag.

HAL chairman and managing director T Suvarna Raju said the maiden flights of the two aircraft were part of the company's progress towards ‘Make in India’ campaign both in fixed and rotary wing segments. These prototypes add strength to ongoing test flights to achieve operational clearance cutting the time frame, he said.

The LUH PT2 has modified tail boom and incorporates improvements based on feedback from testing of LUH PT1. The first flight of LUH PT1 was carried out on September 6, 2016 and further envelope expansion flights are in progress. 

LUH PT-1 had made its flight demonstration during the international air show Aero India-2017 held in February.

HAL has proposed to carry out further flight testing on PT1 and PT2 in the months ahead to freeze the helicopter configuration by the end of this year. Senior officials from HAL, representatives from the Indian Air Force and Army were present during the flight.

The LUH is a three-ton class new generation helicopter being indigenously developed by HAL to meet the requirements of both military and civil operators.  The helicopter, with glass cockpit, will be deployed for reconnaissance, surveillance roles and as a light transport helicopter.

The helicopter will be capable of flying at 220 kmph with a service ceiling of 6.5 km and a range of 350 km with 400 kg payload. The LUH is powered by TM/HAL Ardiden 1U/Shakti 1U single turbo shaft engine with sufficient power margins to cater to demanding high altitude missions.

An integrated facility for manufacturing the LUH has been planned in Tumakuru. Besides systems and components, composites, transmission system, engine, ground test and flight test facilities, the unit will also house repair and overhauling facilities for the helicopter. Prime Minister Narendra Modi had laid the foundation stone for the facility on January 3, 2016.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## bananarepublic

i dont understand the purpose of LCH of it being a high altitude attack helicopter as after a certain height all kinds of attack helicopters become useless and in pak-india scenario with all of the high mountain ranges i think it is useless..


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## Lord Of Gondor

bananarepublic said:


> in pak-india scenario with all of the high mountain ranges i think it is useless..


Well the Indian Army Air Corps and the IAF have a different take and see the LCH as an essential tool for Hi-Alt Warfare.


> "*We are extremely satisfied with the trials and the programme is on the expected flightpath. The flight trials at Leh have established hover performance and low speed handling characteristics of the helicopter under extreme weather conditions at different altitudes (3200-4800 m)," Raju said. HAL claimed that LCH has proven its capability to land and take off at Forward Landing Base in Siachen. "We are happy to announce that LCH is the first attack helicopter to land in Forward Bases at Siachen," Raju said. LCH's 3rd prototype did the Leh duties HAL said that the trials were carried out on the third prototype of LCH (TD3) at Leh. The temperatures during the trials ranged from 13 to 27 degree centigrade. The trial team included pilots from the Indian Air Force, Army and representatives from the certifying agencies -- CEMILAC and DGAQA. Among the tests conducted includes, assessment and validation of flight envelope in ‘hot-and-high' conditions, culminating in landing at forward bases at geographic elevations of 13,600 feet to 15,800 feet. "The landings and take-offs were demonstrated with reasonable amount of weapon load and fuel. This is another critical feature of the current trials," Raju added.*





> "The upper reaches of the Indus river and its tributaries, Nubra and Shyok are home to the mighty Ladakh and Eastern Karakorum Ranges, with multiple lofty peaks over 25,000 feet and an average ridgeline elevation of 20,000 feet. It is also home to the largest glaciated area outside the Polar Regions and is sometimes called the Third Pole," says an official.





> "This mix of extreme altitudes and relatively high temperatures (‘hot-and-high') saps helicopter performance and as such, a few types of helicopters are able to operate effectively all year around," he adds.


http://www.oneindia.com/india/lch-becomes-first-attack-helicopter-to-land-at-siachen-1857693.html


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## bananarepublic

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Well the Indian Army Air Corps and the IAF have a different take and see the LCH as an essential tool for Hi-Alt Warfare.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.oneindia.com/india/lch-becomes-first-attack-helicopter-to-land-at-siachen-1857693.html



but you know i have many relative and friends who are deployed in areas like siachin they say it is easier to shoot down helicopters and they can do it using heavy guns remember these areas have mountains easily reaching heights of 5000m and to climb them with weaponry would take few hours or so.
i am not saying it is useless it is an excellent helicopter for areas like LOC and its maneuverability is excellent for close mountain ranges
but i am more concerned about high altitude areas where it is easier to shoot down...


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## Lord Of Gondor

bananarepublic said:


> but you know i have many relative and friends who are deployed in areas like siachin.


Pak Army is nowhere near Siachen.
Even the Saltoro Ridge is under firm Indian control.



bananarepublic said:


> but i am more concerned about high altitude areas where it is easier to shoot down.


Maybe in relative terms. But the fact is the Indian Army's Hi Altitude lifeline are the Helicopters and the Dhruv and LCH are the most suited for sustaining our positions.
Not too many Choppers can do these:


> t was a brutal test of helicopter and pilot. As the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) shuddered towards the icy helipad on a *21,000-foot ledge* overlooking the Siachen Glacier, the pilots could see wreckage from earlier helicopter crashes dotting the base of the vertical ice walls on either side. Ahead lay the Indian army’s infamous Sonam Post, the highest inhabited spot on earth, and an extreme example of why the military so urgently wants the Dhruv, which has been customised by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for high altitude operations.
> Very quickly, the Dhruv demonstrated its superiority over the military’s tiny, single-engine Cheetah helicopters, which can barely lift 20 kilos of payload to Sonam. Touching down on a tiny H-shape formed on the snow with perforated iron sheets, the Dhruv’s pilots signalled to one of the soldiers on Sonam to climb aboard. Effortlessly, the Dhruv took off, circled the post and landed again. Another soldier clambered onto the helicopter and the process was repeated, then with a third, and then a fourth soldier. Even with all Sonam’s defenders on board, the twin-engine Dhruv --- painted incongruously in the peacock regalia of the IAF’s aerobatics team, Sarang --- lifted off and landed back safely.
> 
> “*This helicopter is simply unmatched at high altitudes*”, says Group Captain Unni Nair, HAL’s chief helicopter test pilot, who flew the Dhruv that August morning during “hot-and-high” trials at Sonam. *That term means flying at extreme altitudes in summer, when the heat-swollen oxygen is even thinner than usual. “The army wanted the Dhruv to lift 200 kilos to Sonam; we managed to carry 600 kilos.”*


http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/03/in-siachen-dhruv-proves-world-beater.html
Dhruv at Sonam Post(Altitude 21000Ft.)

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## bananarepublic

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Pak Army is nowhere near Siachen.
> Even the Saltoro Ridge is under firm Indian control.
> 
> 
> Maybe in relative terms. But the fact is the Indian Army's Hi Altitude lifeline are the Helicopters and the Dhruv and LCH are the most suited for sustaining our positions.
> Not too many Choppers can do these:
> 
> http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/03/in-siachen-dhruv-proves-world-beater.html
> Dhruv at Sonam Post(Altitude 21000Ft.)


thanks for the info but what i want to ask is what specific areas is the LCH made for


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## Lord Of Gondor

bananarepublic said:


> thanks for the info but what i want to ask is what specific areas is the LCH made for


Hi Altitude warfare(So North/North East Sectors). After the Kargil War (where the shortcomings of the Mi35 were a massive blow:


> There was urgency to build up force levels and evict the intruders.* A request was also made for Mi-25/35 gunships to attack the points occupied by the intruders. This request was made with increased urgency again on May 10. It was then explained that these gunships had not, till then, crossed the Zojila Pass due to their weight/altitude restrictions *(Well after the Kargil Ops, the IAF successfully flew a stripped down Mi-35 across the Zojila Pass during winter when temperature and air density conditions are favourable, and carried out firing practice).


 )a lot of lessons were learnt.

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## X_Killer

bananarepublic said:


> i dont understand the purpose of LCH of it being a high altitude attack helicopter as after a certain height all kinds of attack helicopters become useless and in pak-india scenario with all of the high mountain ranges i think it is useless..


In 1999, when enemy forces cowardly attack India from Kargil regions. IAF shows its requirements for high altitude attack helicopters which leads to modify 3 mi-17s to armed with rocket pods.
India has too much mountains in border areas which are surrounded by such coward forces. Siachen, aksai chin and northeast are some of the most gifted regions which requires such attack helicopters.
That's why both IAF and IA shows their keen interest to Induct LCH.

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## kenyannoobie

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Fyi,Kenya is in talks with your guys for co production! Nothing signed yet but watch this space.

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## Lord Of Gondor

kenyannoobie said:


> Fyi,Kenya is in talks with your guys for co production! Nothing signed yet but watch this space.


Co-Production is highly unlikely.
HAL would be hardpressed to help a foreign vendor with production when domestic MSME are still waiting for work orders.

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## satishkumarcsc

kenyannoobie said:


> Fyi,Kenya is in talks with your guys for co production! Nothing signed yet but watch this space.



Bad idea. After sales support of HAL sucks big time. Ask the Ecuadorians if you want.

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## kenyannoobie

satishkumarcsc said:


> Bad idea. After sales support of HAL sucks big time. Ask the Ecuadorians if you want.



My understanding is HAL offloaded old engines against the terms of the contract. India's first significant arms export was lost as a result. Tbh,nothing will be signed this year,maybe next then another 2 years to set up. I'm told the government at the upper level is really pushing this project.

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## X_Killer

kenyannoobie said:


> My understanding is HAL offloaded old engines against the terms of the contract. India's first significant arms export was lost as a result. Tbh,nothing will be signed this year,maybe next then another 2 years to set up. I'm told the government at the upper level is really pushing this project.


False understandings.
For Ecuadorian ALH DHRUV helos , Ecuador delayed the after sales maintenance contract which results in the crash of 2 sets due to overtime airborne without maintenance.
For other 2 Airframes, Ecuadorian air force's report says that they are due to human error.
HAL also offered the Upgrade package for them but they denied for the same.
Rest 3 Helicopters are placed for sale
There was nothing wrong with none of the ALH out of all 7 Ecuadorian DHRUVs.

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## Hindustani78

NEW DELHI, August 23, 2017 01:03 IST
Updated: August 23, 2017 01:03 IST
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...r-hundreds-of-helicopters/article19542169.ece

The Navy has begun a multi-billion dollar hunt to procure hundreds of helicopters. The Request for Information for 111 Naval Utility Helicopters and 123 naval Multi-Role helicopters was issued on Tuesday. “The global tenders were issued to global Original Equipment Manufacturers under the recently approved Strategic Partnership model,” a Navy source said.

The NUH will replace the vintage Chetak helicopters in service. Earlier efforts to replace the Chetaks had repeatedly failed.

The SP model was approved in May in an attempt to develop the domestic defence manufacturing. The model forms the Chapter 7 under the Defence Procurement Procedure.


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## Hindustani78

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...eed-to-know/story-78xJVAS4HBXLCHhB81WADP.html

The Indian Navy is expected to float global tenders for 234 helicopters, costing more than $5 billion, by middle of 2018 to replace its outdated Westland Sea Kings choppers and French-designed Chetak helicopters.

Facing a crippling shortage, the navy launched a global hunt for 123 naval multi-role helicopters (NMRHs) and 111 naval utility helicopters (NUHs) by releasing two requests for information (RFsI) on Tuesday.

The NMRHs are to replace Sea Kings and the NUHs will replace the Chetaks. The helicopters will be built in the country by an Indian firm in partnership with a foreign defence contractor.

Some of the machines will be purchased directly from the foreign vendor in keeping with the strategic partnership procurement policy that stipulates “a minimum number of platforms, not exceeding 10-15% of the number of units being procured, may be manufactured on the premises of the original equipment manufacturer”.

As defence contractors prepare to respond to the RFIs by October 6, a lowdown on the helicopters the navy is planning to shop for:

*Naval multi-role helicopters:*

*1* The twin-engine helicopter will have two variants: NMRH (multi-role) and NMRH (special operations).

*2* The multi-role chopper will be used for anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare, search and rescue, electronic intelligence and casualty evacuation.

The special operations variant will perform roles including transporting commandos, anti-piracy operations, combat search and rescue, humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HADR) and logistics and communication duties.

*3* The 12.5-tonne helicopters, capable of operating from ships and ashore, will have wheeled landing gear, dual flying controls and blade fold capability.

*4* In line with the Modi government’s Make in India initiative, the vendors have been asked to maximise the indigenous content of the NMRH. The navy has stipulated it should not be less than 40%.

*5 *The helicopter must be capable of night missions, including hovering over sea in night conditions.

*6* The navy had asked manufacturers if it was possible to install weapons of its choice in lieu of those proposed by them. It wants two types of anti-ship missiles: Long-range fire and forget missile with 70-km range and short range missile with a range of 25km.

*Naval utility helicopters:*

*1* The five-tonne NUHs will carry out several roles such as search and rescue, medical evacuation, communication duties, anti-piracy and anti-terrorism operations, HADR and surveillance and targeting.

*2* The twin-engine helicopter will also be flown by two pilots, have wheeled landing gear and blade fold capability. Like the NMRHs, these choppers will also have 40% indigenous content.

*3* Few of the helicopters will be initially delivered in the basic version to meet the navy’s immediate requirements of training and search and rescue. These will be later upgraded to perform all roles. The majority of the navy’s 140 warships are operating without choppers.

*4 *The navy wants 15 NUHs supplied within five years of signing of the contract and remaining 96 between five and 13 years of the contract under the “make category”.

*5* The navy has asked foreign vendors if the choppers can carry at sea level a minimum of six passengers or 420 kg cargo inside the cabin or 500-kg loads under slung or two stretchers with one patient each and at least one medical attendant.

*6* The navy has also sought to know if the NUH can achieve a continuous cruise speed of not be less than 125 knots and if the ceiling of the helicopter will be above 10,000 feet.

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## Papa Dragon

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...oppers-privatisation/articleshow/60250211.cms

NEW DELHI: With the Apaches being sanctioned for the Indian Army, other attack helicopter programmes for the force are also on track. These are ventures of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a defence PSU. 

However, the army should also focus on privatisation of such projects to ensure there are broader choices of such helicopters, reduction in import dependence of major components, and a long-term manufacturing capability is set up in India. 

*FOCUS ON INDIGENISATION *
In India, HAL is the entity which produces all kinds of helicopters. HAL will also have to be taken on board for the Apache’s integration, maintenance and repairs. But HAL has limited production capability. In relation, the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and its two weaponised variants, the Rudra and the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) have limited indigenous content. 

The Rudra and the LCH are the army’s other attack helicopter program, which like the Apaches will be deployed opposite Pakistan and China. A 2010 CAG report had stated that 90% of the material used in the ALH is procured from foreign suppliers. Major components such as the engines for these helicopters are imported from different countries, leading to integration and maintenance issues. But these are processes that take place to move towards indigenisation 

Experts believe that projects for the army’s acquisition of such air assets should also be given to Indian private entities. This will enhance India’s manufacturing capabilities and ensure a wider choice of helicopters, which are made as per the army’s requirements. All this can be done through the Strategic Partnership model, wherein Indian private entities tie up with foreign manufacturers to make major military platforms. 

The Indian Navy is working towards this development by having issued Requests for Information for the procurement of Naval Multi Role Helicopters and Naval Utility Helicopters. This could be the time when the army focused on further indigenisation of attack helicopters. 

*RUDRAS AND LCH* 
The army has a few squadrons of Rudras and plans to have a total of six squadrons, numbering up to 60 helicopters. While the ammunition for these multi-utility helicopters is being procured, the final trials of their crucial Helina missiles are on. Meanwhile, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley launched the LCH’s production in Bangalore on Saturday. But sources said, “Its prototypes have undergone trials, and its probable date of completion is by this year’s end. 

Then it will be ready for production,” said sources. Last year, the Centre gave in-principle approval for 15 LCHs for the IAF and army. They will be evaluated and thereafter the army will place a order of 11.5 squadrons, each consisting of 10 to 12 LCHs


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## Water Car Engineer

Ready for production

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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Ready for production


Rare HQ pic of TD-4

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Dark Lord Forever

Water Car Engineer said:


>


more target practice for anza.

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## RoyalEnfieldBullet500

Dark Lord Forever said:


> more target practice for anza.


Dude you are a joke

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## Cat Shannon

Dark Lord Forever said:


> more target practice for anza.



Or maybe more target practice for IA on your jihadis.

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## aman_rai0007

Papa Dragon said:


> NEW DELHI: With the Apaches being sanctioned for the Indian Army, other attack helicopter programmes for the force are also on track. These are ventures of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a defence PSU.
> 
> However, the army should also focus on privatisation of such projects to ensure there are broader choices of such helicopters, reduction in import dependence of major components, and a long-term manufacturing capability is set up in India.
> 
> *FOCUS ON INDIGENISATION *
> In India, HAL is the entity which produces all kinds of helicopters. HAL will also have to be taken on board for the Apache’s integration, maintenance and repairs. But HAL has limited production capability. In relation, the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and its two weaponised variants, the Rudra and the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) have limited indigenous content.
> 
> The Rudra and the LCH are the army’s other attack helicopter program, which like the Apaches will be deployed opposite Pakistan and China. A 2010 CAG report had stated that 90% of the material used in the ALH is procured from foreign suppliers. Major components such as the engines for these helicopters are imported from different countries, leading to integration and maintenance issues. But these are processes that take place to move towards indigenisation
> 
> Experts believe that projects for the army’s acquisition of such air assets should also be given to Indian private entities. This will enhance India’s manufacturing capabilities and ensure a wider choice of helicopters, which are made as per the army’s requirements. All this can be done through the Strategic Partnership model, wherein Indian private entities tie up with foreign manufacturers to make major military platforms.
> 
> The Indian Navy is working towards this development by having issued Requests for Information for the procurement of Naval Multi Role Helicopters and Naval Utility Helicopters. This could be the time when the army focused on further indigenisation of attack helicopters.
> 
> *RUDRAS AND LCH*
> The army has a few squadrons of Rudras and plans to have a total of six squadrons, numbering up to 60 helicopters. While the ammunition for these multi-utility helicopters is being procured, the final trials of their crucial Helina missiles are on. Meanwhile, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley launched the LCH’s production in Bangalore on Saturday. But sources said, “Its prototypes have undergone trials, and its probable date of completion is by this year’s end.
> 
> Then it will be ready for production,” said sources. Last year, the Centre gave in-principle approval for 15 LCHs for the IAF and army. They will be evaluated and thereafter the army will place a order of 11.5 squadrons, each consisting of 10 to 12 LCHs
> 
> That's good news about us


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## Water Car Engineer

*The Army currently 23 Rudras across three operational squadrons, with plans to raise four more squadrons. A further 21 airframes are currently under test at HAL Bengaluru. HAL will produce a total of 34 more Rudras to complete the Army’s current confirmed order book of 78.*

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## GodToons

India needs to improve a lot on ergonomics.


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## Hindustani78

*Facing challenge at sea, navy embarks on long road to upgrade chopper fleet*
*Navy’s push for 24 multi-role helicopters worth Rs 10,000 crore is aimed at adding more air power*
Updated: Dec 17, 2017 07:37 IST 
Hindustan Times, New Delhi

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...opper-fleet/story-M6JKEBdwiLyCyAqZYVDMxL.html


The navy is preparing a fresh case for buying new multi-role helicopters (MRH) after failed attempts to fill a key area of deficiency in its capabilities, a senior navy officer said.

The MRH is expected to be the future mainstay of the navy’s anti-submarine, anti-ship warfare and airborne early-warning capabilities that have seen a worrying and persistent deterioration over the last decade.

The new push for 24 MRH worth over Rs 10,000 crore is aimed at replacing the Sea King 42/42A helicopters that were retired almost around two decades ago.

“The replacement is overdue. It was around 15 years ago that the navy moved a case to get new MRH. It’s a very crucial operational requirement,” said vice admiral (retd) Shekhar Sinha, a naval aviator and former Western Naval Command chief.

The Sea King 42/42A models came with aircraft carrier INS Viraat. Bought from the UK, the Viraat was commissioned as the navy’s second carrier in 1987 and retired last year.

The navy came very close to hammering out a deal for 16 Sikorsky S-70B Seahawks a year ago, but the negotiations fell through, forcing the project to return to the drawing board. The takeover of Sikorsky Aircraft by Lockheed Martin affected price negotiations as the defence ministry’s commercial negotiation committee had to deal with a new management, navy sources said.

Shortage of MRH has forced the navy to ration its helicopter resources. “The navy has to beg, borrow and steal to keep the show going,” Sinha said.

It is unclear at this stage what course the navy will take to purchase the new helicopters — whether it will go in for a government-to-government (G2G) deal or float a global tender.

Sources said the US administration has offered the S-70B Seahawk to India under a G2G deal, also known as the foreign military sales programme.

A G2G deal is a contract between two governments that does away with the need to float a tender. Such transactions may be complicated in their conception and execution but are more transparent to financial scrutiny.

Apart from MRH, the navy needs to invest thousands of crores to buy naval utility helicopters (NUH) and naval multi-role helicopters (NMRH).

The navy requires 111 NUH to replace its outdated fleet of French-designed Chetak choppers. A fresh effort to buy these ship-borne utility helicopters got underway in October, with the defence ministry according its “acceptance of necessity” (AoN) to a Rs 21,738-crore programme to replace the Chetaks.

The AoN is only the first step towards buying a weapon or platform in a complex acquisition procedure that can sometimes take up to a decade to translate into a final contract.

“I don’t think AoN is a big deal. There are several programmes that were granted AoN years ago but we are nowhere close to buying those weapons and systems,” said another senior navy officer on condition of anonymity.

What’s worrying is that the majority of India’s 140 warships are operating without integral utility helicopters. These five-tonne class choppers are used for several purposes, including search and rescue operations, medical evacuation, anti-piracy and anti-terrorism operations, communication duties, humanitarian assistance and surveillance.

The US, European and Russian suppliers are expected to compete for the NUH programme by stitching up alliances with Indian firms under the government’s ‘strategic partnership’ model.

Sixteen of the choppers will be bought in flyaway condition from a foreign military contractor, and the remaining 95 will be locally built in partnership with an Indian firm.

The navy had released two requests for information for 123 NMRH and 111 NUH this August, seeking details to build the helicopters in the country.

Naval helicopters come with special modifications such as foldable blades for shipboard storage, wheeled landing gear and airframe resistant to salt water corrosion.

Building capability can take years and if decisions are not taken on time, the military suffers. If India were to clinch the NUH deal today, the last of the 111 twin-engine choppers will still take 13 years to arrive.

An older plan to import 56 NUH was scrapped as the government wanted to pursue the programme under the Make in India banner. Besides, the navy had modified its requirements.

Similarly, a previous NMRH tender for 126 helicopters was withdrawn to power the Make in India plan. The NMRH project is expected to move forward under the ‘strategic partnership’ model at a later juncture. The NMRH mission range covers anti-submarine warfare, anti-ship warfare, electronic warfare and carrying marine commandos — roles performed by the navy’s Sea King 42B/42C variants.

Naval helicopter programmes have to be accelerated to overcome shortcomings and keep the force mission ready, said BS Randhawa, a retired vice admiral.

“Remember submarine and surface activity, including Chinese presence, has risen sharply in the Indian Ocean region,” Randhawa said.

“If a warship is not armed with choppers, it’s a serious capability gap. These choppers are a potent part of a vessel in terms of extending its range and overall capabilities for anti-submarine and anti-ship warfare,” a top navy officer said.

The navy also operates a mix of 20 Russian-made Kamov-28 and Kamov-31 helicopters for anti-submarine warfare and electronic warfare respectively. The Kamov-28 fleet is undergoing a midlife upgrade at a cost of Rs 2,000 crore.

Up in the air

Navy pushing case to buy new multi-role helicopters (MRH) worth more than Rs 10,000 crore
The fresh push for 24 MRH is aimed at replacing Sea King 42/42A helicopters that were retired almost two decades ago
Navy plans to induct 111 naval utility helicopters (NUH) to replace French-designed Chetaks at a cost of Rs 21,738 crore
If India were to clinch the NUH deal today, the last of the 111 twin-engine choppers will still take 13 years to arrive
The majority of India’s 140 warships are operating without integral utility helicopters
Plans to buy 123 naval multi-role choppers still on the drawing board

**************
Old articles.

http://www.thehindu.com/2004/07/18/stories/2004071810980500.htm

Sunday, Jul 18, 2004





* Vice-Admiral S.V. Gopalachari, Deputy Chief of Naval Staff, who inaugurated the Sea King Transmission Test Facility at HAL, looking at the Main Gear Box Test Rig along with N.R. Mohanty, Chairman, HAL (centre), and Ashok K. Baweja, Director (Design and Development), in Bangalore on Saturday. — Photo: K Gopinatha
*

BANGALORE, JULY 17. A "universal test rig" set up at the Helicopter Division of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. in Bangalore promises to handle much of the testing needs of the Indian Navy.

The Rs. 70-crore test facility will save the Navy some Rs. 6 crore a year when the rig becomes operational early next year, a senior naval officer told presspersons here on Saturday.

S.V. Gopalachari, Deputy Chief of Naval Staff and head of the Navy's Directorate of Naval Air Material, inaugurated the rig supplied by a German firm, ZF Luftfahrttechnik.

Initially, the rig would serve as a "Sea King Transmission Test Facility" for the Navy's 26 made Sea King helicopters, N.R. Mohanty, chairman of HAL, said.

The Navy operated a squadron of Sea Kings based on the aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, in Mumbai.

They were put on frontline ships for "anti-submarine warfare," Vice-Admiral Gopalachari said. So far, the gearboxes were being sent to Westland, the firm that made them, in the U.K. Now, HAL's helicopter division would be equipped to test them here, Mr. Mohanty said.

Testing the gearboxes involves simulating actual flight conditions to check if they are holding up to required standards on various parameters, including the tremendous thrust the rotors generate when they lift a helicopter up.

Ashok K. Baweja, Director of Design and Development at HAL, said: "Since we have bought a universal rig, modifications can be made to the rig to test gearboxes of other helicopters too." Such aircraft included the HAL's indigenous Advanced Light Helicopters (ALHs) and some 26 Russian-made Kamov family of helicopters, Mr. Baweja said. HAL was to supply 10 ALHs to the Navy by the end of the 10th plan, the Vice-Admiral said, including four that would be used for anti-submarine warfare. Those ALHs would be equipped with torpedoes and depth charges. 

The Navy was also looking for an air-to-surface missile. "We don't have an air-to-surface missile right now. We are looking for one and when we get one it will be integrated into the ALH's weaponry," he said.

The Navy was looking at buying another 16 Sea King helicopters.

"We are short of these medium-range helicopters, which have their own SONAR (sound navigation and ranging), and we will be buying them second-hand, he said. These aircraft would go on ships including a large aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov, which India is buying from Russia, and a smaller indigenous carrier being built in Cochin.

The "Air Defence Ship" (ADS) was expected to be ready by 2010, the Vice-Admiral said.

The ADS is planned to be a 40,000-ton class carrier equipped with a "ski-jump," a short upwardly inclined runway for aircraft.

It will carry between 20 and 25 aircraft, including fighters such as the MiG 29 K, the Light Combat Aircraft (Navy), and helicopters such as Sea King, Chetak, and the ALH.

A second ADS may also be built, Vice-Admiral Gopalachari said.

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## Hindustani78

A Light Combat Helicopter during an exercise at Pokran range. File photo | Photo Credit:  V.V. Krishnan 

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...helicopters/article22260545.ece?homepage=true

* This development comes days after the IAF issue the RFP to HAL for manufacturing 83 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft *

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on Friday received a Request for Proposal (RFP) for 15 limited series Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) from the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Army.

This development comes days after the IAF issue the RFP to HAL for manufacturing 83 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Mk-1A configuration.

LCH is a 5.5 tonne class multirole attack helicopter developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and is intended to play a major role in providing close air support to ground forces. It is the only attack helicopter in the world which can operate at heights of 12,000 feet. Presently, four technology demonstrators are under flight testing.

The limited series production is a precursor for full fledged serial production. Of the 15 helicopters, five are for the Army and 10 for the IAF.

On August 26 this year then Defence Minister Arun Jaitley launched the production of LCH at Bengaluru and the Initial Operational Configuration (IOC) documents of the basic version were handed over to HAL.

The IAF has out forward a requirement for 65 LCH and the Army for 114 of these attack helicopters.

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## Hindustani78

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/62727667.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

*Light Combat Helicopter makes maiden flight with indigenously developed AFCS*
PTI|
Jan 31, 2018, 08.00 PM IST







The development of indigenous AFCS is a HAL funded project and would replace the high value imported system, HAL CMD T Suvarna Raju said.


BENGALURU: HAL today said it has carried out the first flight of Light Combat Helicopter (Technology Demonstrator-2) with the Automatic Flight Control System designed by it, for the first time in the country. 

The maiden flight was 'flawless' and flew for 20 minutes with the engagement of the system throughout, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited said in a press release. 

Wing Commander( Retd) Unni K Pillai, Chief Test Pilot and Group Captain (Retd) Rajesh Verma, Test Pilot were at the controls of LCH, it said. 

The development of indigenous AFCS is a HAL funded project and would replace the high value imported system, HAL CMD T Suvarna Raju said. 

"The AFCS is a digital four axis flight control system capable of performing control and stability augmentation function and auto-pilot modes of helicopters." 

"The indigenous development of the Hardware, Software and Control Law is a fully in-house effort of HAL R&D Centres - RWR&DC and MCSRDC at Bengaluru, SLRDC at Hyderabad and Korwa Division," he said. 

Representatives from certification agencies and senior officers from HAL were present during the flight. 

HAL said it has already indigenised the Cockpit Display System on LCH, namely Integrated Architecture Display System (IADS) with the participation of Indian private industries and that development flight testing was under progress. 

The Initial Operational Clearance for LCH was given on August 26, 2017 in the presence of the Union Defence Minister.

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## MimophantSlayer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/958707984753971201


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## Water Car Engineer

IA Rudras






IAF Rudras






Old LCH prototype with IA Rudra






LCH

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964417478322356228

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## Skull and Bones

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964417478322356228



NAL should also follow suite ans sell the production license of NAL Saras to Mahindra or Tata aerospace.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## MimophantSlayer

*To enhance capacity of Light combat helicopter from 8 to 16 per year: HAL*
*Will be manufacturing light combat aircraft (LCA), which will strengthen its business prospects of the company, said M Chamola, Officiating CMD, HAL.*
CNBC TV18@moneycontrolcom






Defence firm Hindustan AeronauticsAero hit the IPO Street. HAL is a 100 percent government held Navratna Company and the largest defence public sector undertakings in terms of value of production.

M Chamola, Officiating CMD, HAL in an interview to CNBC-TV18 shared the details about their expansion plans. *The company currently has 20 production units and 11 research and development center, he said.*

Talking about Greenfield, brownfield expansions, he said *a new facility to manufacture light combat helicopter (LCH) will be coming up near Tumkur, Bengaluru and enhance manufacturing capacity from 8 to 16 helicopters
*
He said the government plans to dilute 10 percent through IPO and therefore the proceeds will go to them.

They will be manufacturing light combat aircraft (LCA) which will strengthen its business prospects of the company, said Chamola.

The issue is available at a price band of Rs 1215-1240 and has an issues size is Rs 4113-4198 crore for. Post the issue the implied market cap of the company would be at Rs 40,628-41464 crore.

Talking about capacity expansion, he said it will be around Rs 1300 crore annually and Rs 5000 crore cummulatively over the next five years.

Chamola said the current orderbook for the company stands at Rs 68000 crore and 90 percent of the orders for the company are from defence, while 10 percent are civil orders. Going forward around Rs 60,000 crore orders are expected.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/t...st-expensive-things-in-the-world-2530851.html

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## Water Car Engineer

LUH, Rudra, LCH

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## hacker J

Water Car Engineer said:


> LUH, Rudra, LCH



the 3rd prototype and newest of lch looks a bit sleeker or is it just the camera angle ?
All birds look good and a big thumbs up


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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer



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## hacker J

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Thats pretty sleek and sexy machine.


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## Water Car Engineer

Army's Rudra attack chopper involved in a mishap during night flying at Nagtalao, Jodhpur.


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## Water Car Engineer

*HAL LUH, Rudra, Civ Dhruv, LCH and a license built MKI in the back for fun.*

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## Water Car Engineer

_Thirty Dhruv helicopters built by HAL await collection by army and IAF, having been built ahead of time_​

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## KapitaanAli

Water Car Engineer said:


> _Thirty Dhruv helicopters built by HAL await collection by army and IAF, having been built ahead of time_​


Lovely.

They're Rudra though.


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## MimophantSlayer

Water Car Engineer said:


> _Thirty Dhruv helicopters built by HAL await collection by army and IAF, having been built ahead of time_​



I think that's a year ahead of schedule.


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## aman_rai0007

cyclops said:


> I think that' a year ahead of schedule.


Keep manufacturing them...
Numbers game is also on...


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## Water Car Engineer

KapitaanAli said:


> Lovely.
> 
> They're Rudra though.




Woops, I just copy pasted from broadsword. Didnt see that!


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## Panzerfaust 3

Water Car Engineer said:


> _Thirty Dhruv helicopters built by HAL await collection by army and IAF, having been built ahead of time_​


What about lch??
Any update?


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## sathya

Water Car Engineer said:


> _Thirty Dhruv helicopters built by HAL await collection by army and IAF, having been built ahead of time_​




Why would army & airforce won't collect it ? 

Aren't they facing shortages ?


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## MimophantSlayer

sathya said:


> Why would army & airforce won't collect it ?
> 
> Aren't they facing shortages ?



According to Ajai Shukla the army is readying personnel and infrastructure before they recieve the choppers.


----------



## Hindustani78

HYDERABAD:, June 01, 2018 16:15 IST
Updated: June 01, 2018 16:15 IST

* The facility at Adibatla is the sole global producer of fuselages for combat helicopter to its global customers. *

Aerospace Ltd. has begun delivery of combat helicopter fuselage from its manufacturing facility in Hyderabad.

Union Minister of Defence Nirmala Sitharaman had inaugurated the facility, located in Adibatla, on the outskirts of Hyderabad, in March this year. It is spread over 14,000 square meters, and, at full production, employs 350 skilled worker.

The facility is the sole global producer of fuselages for helicopter delivered to its global customers, including the Indian Army. The facility would also produce secondary structures and vertical spar boxes for the multi-role combat helicopter.


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## Hindustani78

Aerospace India Ltd. has begun delivery of combat helicopter fuselage from its manufacturing facility in Hyderabad.

Announcing that the delivery was made ahead of schedule, the company said that it had come within a year of the aerospace joint venture facility becoming operational. The fuselage is to be transported to manufacturing facility for integration into the final assembly line.

Union Minister of Defence Nirmala Sitharaman had inaugurated the facility, located in Adibatla, on the outskirts of Hyderabad, in March this year. It is spread over 14,000 square metres, and at full production, employs 350 skilled workers.

The facility is the sole global producer of fuselages for helicopter delivered to its global customers. The facility would also produce secondary structures and vertical spar boxes for the multi-role combat helicopter. Describing the delivery as “a major step forward in Advanced Systems’ commitment to make advanced, high quality aero structures,” Aerospace India Ltd. officials said that co-development of integrated systems in aerospace and defence was one of the future opportunities that the joint venture would look at.

*‘Big boost’*

“The delivery of the fuselage within a year of the facility becoming operational is a big boost to indigenous manufacturing and also demonstrates our commitment to deliver high quality products within a short span of time,” said Aerospace India Ltd. officials

Aerospace India Ltd. is first equity JV in India from a 2015 partnership agreement with TASL. Construction of the manufacturing facility began in 2016 and was completed a year later. Aerospace India Ltd. and TASL have worked closely to develop a pool of highly skilled aerospace talent through skill development initiatives.


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## Water Car Engineer




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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer



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## KapitaanAli

Water Car Engineer said:


>


There's no reason for this thing to not be exported yet. Not everyone needs missile integration. But if need be, it'll be done.

Need that engine asap.


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## Papa Dragon

Water Car Engineer said:


>


Incredible machine


----------



## Dandpatta

I wish the Rudra could be built with a similar 'design silhouette' but with a larger capacity (fuselage lengthened / widened) so as to become a Heavy Lift chopper capable of larger troop / equipment insertion per sortie. And the option of removable doors ( a-la Bell Huey type)


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## KapitaanAli

Dandpatta said:


> I wish the Rudra could be built with a similar 'design silhouette' but with a larger capacity (fuselage lengthened / widened) so as to become a Heavy Lift chopper capable of larger troop / equipment insertion per sortie. And the option of removable doors ( a-la Bell Huey type)


You'll have to wait a long time:


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## Water Car Engineer



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## KapitaanAli

Dhruv Mk3 for Coast Guard:

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## MimophantSlayer




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## aman_rai

CyclopS said:


> View attachment 484386


Itni suudh Hindi padhe hue jamana hi Gaya tha...


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## Water Car Engineer

http://www.manjunathpc.in/portfolio/brochure/HAL.pdf


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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1083257264071421953

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## Water Car Engineer

Ladies and gents, Rudra fully integrated into IA's airwing. First major armed wing of IA. LCH and Apache to follow.

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## Water Car Engineer

Water Car Engineer said:


> Ladies and gents, Rudra fully integrated into IA's airwing. First major armed wing of IA. LCH and Apache to follow.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## #hydra#

Water Car Engineer said:


>


When will we induct lch?


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## BERKEKHAN2

Water Car Engineer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1083257264071421953


Will it replace Mi 35 helicopter that we donated to ANA


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## Novice09

#hydra# said:


> When will we induct lch?



https://swarajyamag.com/amp/story/i...-air-missile-capability-finishes-weapon-trial







Done...

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## thesolar65



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## #hydra#

thesolar65 said:


>


Now its time for us to devolop a heavy class attack chopper.

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## Water Car Engineer

*Compact Naval Dhruv Mark 2 *

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## RPK



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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098818205072674816

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

Arjun and Rudra together

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155146496091648001

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155003213658984449

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## Water Car Engineer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166639546248773632

The exhausts will be pointing upwards now.






Current






Future


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## RPK

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2447722361972471


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## Water Car Engineer




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## Deino

RPK said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2447722361972471





Water Car Engineer said:


>





Wrong thread? How related to LCH?


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## Water Car Engineer

Deino said:


> Wrong thread? How related to LCH?



You're just not going to get enough info of LCH, so I put other heli program developments here as well.


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## Deino

Water Car Engineer said:


> You're just not going to get enough info of LCH, so I put other heli program developments here as well.



Sorry, but we have a dedicated thread for the LUH and also the Druv ... and only since we don't have news on the LCH you post it here? Isn't this a bit ridiculous? 

At least I don't post images of my bees here only since I'm "not going to get enough info of LCH"

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## Water Car Engineer

Deino said:


> Sorry, but we have a dedicated thread for the LUH and also the Druv ... and only since we don't have news on the LCH you post it here? Isn't this a bit ridiculous?
> 
> At least I don't post images of my bees here only since I'm "not going to get enough info of LCH"



There is no dedicated thread for Dhruv, honestly, there's not much news about any of these programs. I dont see any problem in streamlining the few things we have in the dedicated sticky thread. Bees have nothing to do with LCH or it's cousins.


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## Hindustani78

*Eight more HAL-made ABHAY MKI attack helicopters inducted into Indian Air Force.

Pathankot , September 03, 2019 10:50 IST *
* Updated: September 03, 2019 12:45 IST 




*
*Most Advanced Multi-Role Heavy Attack Helicopter *

The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Tuesday formally inducted eight more HAL Made ABHAY MKI Attack Helicopters into service at the Pathankot Air Force Station. HAL Made ABHAY MKI is the most Advanced Multi-role Heavy Attack Helicopter in the world.*
*
“HAL Made ABHAY MKI Attack Helicopters are being purchased to replace the Hind-35 fleet. Alongside the capability to shoot fire and forget anti-tank guided missiles, air-to-air missiles, rockets and other ammunitions, HAL Made ABHAY MKI also has modern Electronic Warfare (EW) capabilities to provide versatility to helicopters in a network-centric aerial warfare,” said Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Shri B.S. Dhanoa at the induction ceremony.

Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Shri B.S. Dhanoa stated that these helicopters had been modified specifically to suit the exacting standards demanded by the Indian Air Force and noted that the delivery schedule was on time, with eight helicopters already being delivered.*
*
“The HAL Made ABHAY MKI Attack Helicopters arrived at the Air Force Station, Hindon in July this year in batches of four over two days and were then transported to the Air Force Station, Pathankot in Punjab to await their formal induction,” the Helicopter Manufacturer HAL said in a statement.

The Union Government of India has also cleared the acquisition of six additional HAL Made ABHAY MKI Attack Helicopters squardons for the Indian Army which has been formally approved by the Indian Armed Forces defence equipment acquistion Council


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## Water Car Engineer




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## Philip the Arab

Hindustani78 said:


> View attachment 577271
> 
> *Eight more HAL-made ABHAY MKI attack helicopters inducted into Indian Air Force.*
> 
> *Pathankot , September 03, 2019 10:50 IST *
> * Updated: September 03, 2019 12:45 IST *
> 
> *
> View attachment 577272
> *
> *Most Advanced Multi-Role Heavy Attack Helicopter *
> 
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Tuesday formally inducted eight more HAL Made ABHAY MKI Attack Helicopters into service at the Pathankot Air Force Station. HAL Made ABHAY MKI is the most Advanced Multi-role Heavy Attack Helicopter in the world.
> 
> “HAL Made ABHAY MKI Attack Helicopters are being purchased to replace the Hind-35 fleet. Alongside the capability to shoot fire and forget anti-tank guided missiles, air-to-air missiles, rockets and other ammunitions, HAL Made ABHAY MKI also has modern Electronic Warfare (EW) capabilities to provide versatility to helicopters in a network-centric aerial warfare,” said Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Shri B.S. Dhanoa at the induction ceremony.
> 
> Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Shri B.S. Dhanoa stated that these helicopters had been modified specifically to suit the exacting standards demanded by the Indian Air Force and noted that the delivery schedule was on time, with eight helicopters already being delivered.
> 
> “The HAL Made ABHAY MKI Attack Helicopters arrived at the Air Force Station, Hindon in July this year in batches of four over two days and were then transported to the Air Force Station, Pathankot in Punjab to await their formal induction,” the Helicopter Manufacturer HAL said in a statement.
> 
> The Union Government of India has also cleared the acquisition of six additional HAL Made ABHAY MKI Attack Helicopters squardons for the Indian Army which has been formally approved by the Indian Armed Forces defence equipment acquistion Council


Assembled is a better word here.

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## Water Car Engineer




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## surya kiran

Water Car Engineer said:


> You're just not going to get enough info of *LCH*, so I put other heli program developments here as well.



Production has begun.


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## KapitaanAli

ALH Mk4. Rudran.

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## Water Car Engineer



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## Water Car Engineer

*Engine Air Particle Separator on TD3*


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## Water Car Engineer

*Engine failure test by LUH*


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## KapitaanAli

@Deino Is it possible to merge the HAL LCH and HAL LUH threads into one, called HAL ALH/LCH/LUH/IMRH ? We don't have ALH thread and it's all posted here, which I know even you don't like.

IMRH to make it futureproof, in case. You may drop it.

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## Deino

KapitaanAli said:


> View attachment 600990
> 
> 
> @Deino Is it possible to merge the HAL LCH and HAL LUH threads into one, called HAL ALH/LCH/LUH/IMRH ? We don't have ALH thread and it's all posted here, which I know even you don't like.
> 
> IMRH to make it futureproof, in case. You may drop it.



Sorry, but I'm only able to moderate in the China section.


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## BL33D

Defence Minister Mr. Rajnath Singh inaugurated the new LCH Production Hangar at Helicopter Div in the presence of HAL CMD R. Madhavan. LCH is completely ready for operational induction & Helicopter Complex is fully geared for the production of LCH, says Mr. R. Madhavan.

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## BL33D



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## Surya 1

BL33D said:


>



A beast.

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## KapitaanAli



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## drumstick

This news is too good guys

http://idrw.org/lch-order-in-the-fi...ttack-helicopters-in-early-2021-hal-chairman/


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## MirageBlue

First contract finally in sight for the indigenous Light Combat Helicopter

Article link







> Freshly confident that an elusive contract for India’s first attack helicopter is in sight, India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has ramped up production of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) in Bengaluru. With crucial — and sticky — price negotiations complete, HAL is finally reassured that this one’s in the bag.
> 
> If HAL is right, and the contract is closed this year, it will be a full four years after the Indian MoD cleared the acquisition in November 2016, a long time for a program that’s been waiting for years, but fleeting by traditional Indian contracting standards.
> 
> Speaking in an exclusive interview to *Livefist*, HAL chairman R. Madhavan said, “_That (the order) will come very soon. We have concluded price negotiations. We are now awaiting financial sanction. By the end of this year, we should see the initial order for 15 aircraft. After that we expect orders for more than 150. In fact, assuming we’re receiving the order, we’ve already begun production of five new aircraft immediately. This will allow us to deliver the aircraft earlier than planned, once the order is confirmed_.”
> 
> ...

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## Zapper

drumstick said:


> This news is too good guys
> 
> http://idrw.org/lch-order-in-the-fi...ttack-helicopters-in-early-2021-hal-chairman/


Need to induct these in 100s all along our eastern front


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## MirageBlue

And while not related to the LCH, the HAL Light Utility Helicopter too is on the verge of completing it's certification phase with final Indian Army demonstration at Ladakh in August. IAF has already given certification. 





Indo-Russian copter overdue, India's own LUH speeds up



> This August, a pair of HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) prototypes will head to the Siachen glacier for a final capability demonstration to the Indian Army. The two prototypes will provide finishing touches to what has been a highly successful proving exercise to the Army, which plans to induct at least 126 LUH to replace its Cheetah and Chetak helicopters.
> 
> The Indian Air Force, which plans to induct at least 60 LUH, is already convinced — certification with the IAF was completed recently. With the final high altitude trials in August with the Army, the LUH will be ready in all respects for operational service, a process that will kick off next year.
> 
> ...
> 
> The LUH achieved initial operational clearance (IOC) in February, with FOC planned for next year, by which time paperwork on inductions will have begun. Both the IAF and Army have expressed confidence in starting procurement procedures, a sign that the LUH has established early maturity. Most work towards FOC will focus on systems and automatic flight control system (AFCS) work until the services issue their requests for quotation (RFQ) with firm requirements.
> 
> With a high rate of production planned, LUHs will be churned out from HAL’s Bengaluru rotorcraft facility to replace in-service Chetak and Cheetah helicopters that form a crucial logistical element in India’s high altitude deployments.
> ..












Formation flight as a gesture of farewell for MA Quraishi, the Chief Designer of LUH at HAL.


----------



## Zapper

MirageBlue said:


> And while not related to the LCH, the HAL Light Utility Helicopter too is on the verge of completing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indo-Russian copter overdue, India's own LUH speeds up


We should scrap both the Ka-226 and AK-203 deals and instead go with large numbers of LUH and P-72 rifle series from SSS Defence

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## MirageBlue

Zapper said:


> We should scrap both the Ka-226 and AK-203 deals and instead go with large numbers of LUH and P-72 rifle series from SSS Defence
> 
> View attachment 642017



Not sure if the P-72 carbine and rifles have been handed over to the Army for trials or not. But nevertheless, it is important that indigenous private sector firms be given orders as well. Hopefully the Ministry of Home Affairs will be better than the terrible MoD which moves at a glacial pace on all orders.

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## Zapper

MirageBlue said:


> Not sure if the P-72 carbine and rifles have been handed over to the Army for trials or not. But nevertheless, it is important that indigenous private sector firms be given orders as well. Hopefully the Ministry of Home Affairs will be better than the terrible MoD which moves at a glacial pace on all orders.


Their snipers have been in testing with NSG & Para SF. 
SSS did mention in one of their recent media or twitter (_I don't remember exactly_) briefings that their entire series will be trailed by IA & Paramilitary units soon


----------



## MirageBlue

Not LCH, but the beautiful HAL Light Utility Helicopters.

Lovely image, tweeted by Grp Cpt HV Thakur.

Over Karnataka Golf Association golf course in Bangalore. Those who've been there will immediately recognise it.

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## Lord Of Gondor

The TD-4 LCH in Leh!
The officer in the middle is VCAS Air Marshal Harjit Singh Arora, this is a major show of faith by the IAF.

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## Lord Of Gondor

*EXCLUSIVE: Light Combat Helicopter Deployed With IAF In Ladakh*


> In a massive show of faith ahead of first orders for the type later this year, a pair of HAL Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) has been operating with the Indian Air Force in Ladakh for a week now. Two LCH airframes flew into Ladakh from Bengaluru last weekend and have been flying armed patrol sorties between Leh and other airbases, including forward areas, in Ladakh as part of a sharp force projection deployment.
> 
> The deployment came at the Indian Air Force’s request — a deep show of support for the inbound combat helicopter that will populate units in both the IAF and Indian Army, with *total orders expected to top 150*. The helicopters themselves aren’t meaningfully armed yet (more on that in a bit), but the deployment is being seen as a robust show of faith in an indigenous aircraft, and perhaps the first such deployment in a live operational setting before formal induction into service.
> 
> One of the 2 LCHs broke cover yesterday when IAF vice chief Air Marshal Harjit Singh Arora flew in one. Livefist can confirm that the Air Marshal flew the LCH from Thoise to Leh. *Flying with an HAL test pilot, the vice chief took off from Thoise in full mission configuration — the LCH was flown to a high-altitude forward helipad with temperatures as high as ISA + 36 deg. The Air Marshal was given a full in-flight demonstration of the helicopter’s handling in extreme conditions. During the flight, the LCH crossed several passes including Khardung La and Chang La near Leh, even carrying out a simulated attack on a high altitude target. After the attack, a simulated aerial combat profile was flown to demonstrate the LCH’s manoeuverability.*
> While LCH airframes have seen trials in Leh periodically for years, most notably in 2015, the current deployment is hugely significant. Operating with IAF pilots and alongside the IAF’s AH-64E Apache attack helicopters (visible in the photograph at Leh below), operational pilots are getting to fly the Indian combat helicopter in a live operational setting for the first time and truly seeing why this purpose-built rotorcraft will be an undoubted asset in that forbidding terrain, and crucially one that can be deployed at those heights all year round.
> 
> Speaking in an exclusive interview to Livefist in June, HAL chairman R. Madhavan said, “_That (the order) will come very soon. We have concluded price negotiations. We are now awaiting financial sanction. By the end of this year, we should see the initial order for 15 aircraft. After that we expect orders for more than 150. In fact, assuming we’re receiving the order, we’ve already begun production of five new aircraft immediately. This will allow us to deliver the aircraft earlier than planned, once the order is confirmed_.”


https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...t-helicopter-deployed-with-iaf-in-ladakh.html

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## Deino

Lord Of Gondor said:


> *EXCLUSIVE: Light Combat Helicopter Deployed With IAF In Ladakh*
> 
> https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...t-helicopter-deployed-with-iaf-in-ladakh.html




Sorry, but how could the deployment of two prototypes be relevant in terms of added combat capability?

It's a PR-stunt, nothing more.

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## paritosh

Deino said:


> Sorry, but how could the deployment of two prototypes be relevant in terms of added combat capability?
> 
> It's a PR-stunt, nothing more.


Deploying a helicopter in Ladakh, an area with one of the rarest atmosphere doesn’t seem like a PR stunt but a litmus test for a helicopter don’t you think?


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## Lord Of Gondor

Deino said:


> Sorry, but how could the deployment of two prototypes be relevant in terms of added combat capability?


I don't think you read the article. It is not meant to add to combat capability, it is not even an IAF asset.

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## Lord Of Gondor

paritosh said:


> Deploying a helicopter in Ladakh, an area with one of the rarest atmosphere doesn’t seem like a PR stunt but a litmus test for a helicopter don’t you think?


This was done at the IAF's request, the VCAS and his team probably wanted to know first hand how the LCH will perform hence he got a familiarization flight with the HAL TP at the controls.
The trials were done way back in 2015 itself and the mechanical underpinning is identical to the Dhruv which is already the best utility heli in the fleet for "Super High Altitude" Areas.
The key things mentioned are underlined in my above post too.


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## MirageBlue

Some great details about the LCH from one of it's Test Pilots at HAL, Grp Cpt Hari Nair. Posted on an Indian defence forum.







The LCH will be one of the most survivable gunships, given the fact that landing gear, seats and the structure, are all designed to help absorb impact loads and protect the pilots.



> *
> The LCH is designed to meet a specific percentile of crashworthiness, as defined in Mil Standard .
> Towards this:
> - The landing gear oleos have a two-stage design. The first stage caters for normal operations. The second stage compression caters for the crash loads.
> - The lower portion of the fuselage has a section that is designed to crush, to attenuate the crash loads, after the oleos have absorbed the initial impact and the fuselage contacts the surface.
> - The seats for the Pilot and Weapon Systems Operator are crash-worthy. These seats are mounted on rails and stroke downwards to further reduce the acceleration. The seat loads are absorbed by its Variable Load Energy Absorbers. The idea being to finally reduce the 'g' load on the spine to below 14.
> So, its essentially a three-stage approach - using the oleos, the crush portions and the seat for energy attenuation in the event of a crash with vertical velocities more than 2000 feet per minute.
> 
> - When up close, its very evident that the oleos and attachment points are beefy - they remind me in size, of those on the Mi-17: which is a 13 tonne helicopter!
> - The testing of the LCH landing gear was done on a rig that was used to check out the Navy LCA's landing gear. However the rig had to be modified, since the LCH landing gear had to be dropped from a even higher height. The landing gear, with ballast representing the helicopter weight came down with a mighty crashing sound in the rig - it passed the test in a single go. My instinct tells me that its capable of taking more punishment and has a generous amount of over-design. Which is a good thing for an attack helicopter.*



and some tidbit about the tail rotors



> The tail rotor of the LCH is an engineering marvel - it weighs just about 14 kg and can be easily lifted by a single hand ! It comprises two composite flex-beams bolted in a cross shape. The flex-beams have the four tail rotor blades. There are no hinges(for flap or drag like a conventional helicopter) or greasing / lubricating points for maintenance. The tail rotor is designed as a 'stiff-in-plane' rotor.



and about the superb A/C and Environment Control System



> The air conditioning is very effective - the best place to be on a blazing hot summer day in Jodhpur (with temperatures above 40 deg C) or during a bitterly cold winter day in a forward base in Ladakh (minus 28 C) - is the cockpit, with the engines started up.
> 
> We have even 'personalised' the air conditioning - through the flight tests, we located vents strategically that blows air on the nape of the neck of the Pilot & WSO and that location is surprisingly effective!
> *
> Long ferries are surprisingly fatigue-free, as a result of the very effective air conditioning, the ergonomic seats excellent auto-pilot and navigation systems. This despite the cockpit being an extremely tight fit - the side canopy panels are just about (or less than) four feet wide.*

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Sorry, but how could the deployment of two prototypes be relevant in terms of added combat capability?
> 
> It's a PR-stunt, nothing more.



It isn't about adding to combat capability, but verifying that the LCH, which was purpose designed to be at it's best when flying and fighting at high altitudes, can deliver the goods. It was put through combat profiles, carrying combat loads, with IAF personnel on board, who could verify it's performance and flight characteristics.

That the first order for 15 LCHs for the IAF and IA is on the verge of being signed is a fact. A little bit of good PR never hurts either. Certainly the Chinese with all those filmy videos have been doing more than their bit of PR of late.


----------



## MirageBlue

LUH at Ladakh, going through what may be the final set of trials.






India's LUH in Ladakh for final trials



> It’s the final stretch before an indigenous light helicopter will be ready to replace hundreds of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters in military service.
> 
> Two HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) prototypes landed in Ladakh on August 19 for what is playing out as a final capability demonstration for the Indian Army before orders are placed. The helicopters, in their final stretch of flight test to meet an Indian armed forces requirement of nearly 200 of these, have been flying sorties between Leh, forward airfields like Daulat Beg Oldie and even super-high altitude helipads at the Siachen glacier. The demonstration, requested by the Army, comes amidst a continuing military standoff in eastern Ladakh between the Indian and Chinese armies. You can read all about the LUH’s final stretch in our June report here.
> 
> The LUHs are back in Ladakh for the second time in less than a year. In September last year, an LUH prototype operated from the world’s highest airfield at Daulat Beg Oldie. You can read about those trial flights in our September 2019 report here. The current deployment comes at a dramatically different time from last year. Over the last week, the LUH prototypes have been flying with Indian Army pilots close to areas not far from the military standoff zones. Daulat Beg Oldie, where the LUH has operated from both last year and this week, is also the site of a major mobilisation on both sides of the Line of Actual Control.
> 
> The deployment is a crucial one for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which was recently invited by the Indian Air Force to send a pair of Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) to Ladakh on an unprecedented force projection deployment in an operational setting. Livefist had detailed that deployment here with first videos breaking cover on our YouTube channel.
> 
> As we noted earlier this year, the LUH achieved initial operational clearance (IOC) in February, with FOC planned for next year, by which time paperwork on inductions will have begun. Both the IAF and Army have expressed confidence in starting procurement procedures, a sign that the LUH has established early maturity. Most work towards FOC will focus on systems and automatic flight control system (AFCS) work until the services issue their requests for quotation (RFQ) with firm requirements.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1311184848552247296

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## MirageBlue

Good quality image of the first LSP of the LCH going through ground runs.

Image credit - Anantha Krishnan


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## KapitaanAli

ALH in a new avatāram for coastal duty:

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## CIA Mole

That is ugly af

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## MirageBlue

First look at the production standard Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) that will be handed over to the IAF even before a contract is signed for them. The Tipnis grey color gives it away as an IAF bird.






Brand new Coast Guard ALH-Mk3 helicopters at Aero India 2021

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## MirageBlue

Twitter link








> .
> @HALHQBLR 's LSP Light Combat Helicopters (#LCH) In IAF Colors.
> 
> HAL has started the MFG of 5 LSP LCH from its funds, 3 will be delivered by end of April 2021. The remaining 12 helicopters of the LSP in the next financial year.

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## MirageBlue

ALH Mk3 cockpit at night

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## Anik101

HAL LCH in Ladakh armed with 4x mistral air to air missiles

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## MirageBlue

First series produced LCH in IAF colors

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## MirageBlue

LCH firing MBDA Mistral AAM during it's trials..

link



> LCH launching Mistral ATAM which is a fully digital IR guided fire & forget missile with large off-boresight capability & can be operated at speeds of up to 200 knots and at altitudes exceeding 15,000 ft. Max & Min intercept range 6.5 km & 500 m respectively

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## Prince Kassad

*Render - Tejas Mark II/MWF*

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## Deino

Prince Kassad said:


> View attachment 740867
> 
> 
> *Render - Tejas Mark II/MWF*




Wrong thread?? ... this is for helicopters?

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## MirageBlue

Limited Series Production LCH of the IAF





Not 100% sure on the accuracy of all the weapons that are listed here. But a cool infographic nonetheless.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Image shared by Grp Capt HV Thakur and credits to Sanjay Simha for the photo

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## MirageBlue

Beautiful shot by GaurAviation that shows the upward turned exhausts of the LCH..it basically ensures that the hot exhaust air is quickly dissipated by the downward rotor wash, to reduce the overall IR signature of the LCH..

In addition, the LCH also has a separate intake that sucks in cool air and blows it out near the exhaust to sort of mask the hot exhaust. 

IAF's LCH from the Limited Series Production batch

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## Lord Of Gondor

First Army Aviation LCH seen!
Image courtesy Raghav Kidambi on Twitter

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## sms

*PM Modi hands over made-in-India light combat helicopters to IAF

Congratulation!*

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ped-helicopters-iaf-jhansi-1878695-2021-11-19

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## Deino

Lord Of Gondor said:


> First Army Aviation LCH seen!
> Image courtesy Raghav Kidambi on Twitter




Wow ... congrats, however that camo surprises me since I thought the IAF would go all grey for the future?

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## Black Tornado

Deino said:


> Wow ... congrats, however that camo surprises me since I thought the IAF would go all grey for the future?


It’s the Arny Aviation helo, they love that camo. IAF aircraft except Mirage-2000 have the standard tipnis Grey colour.

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## Deino

Sudarshan said:


> It’s the Arny Aviation helo, they love that camo. IAF aircraft except Mirage-2000 have the standard tipnis Grey colour.




Thanks for that explanation ... but does this mean, the AH-64s are NOT used by the Army but instead by the IAF?

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## Black Tornado

Deino said:


> Thanks for that explanation ... but does this mean, the AH-64s are NOT used by the Army but instead by the IAF?


Yes Apaches are used by IAF, there was a “fight” over the rights of using these apaches between IAF and IA.

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## MirageBlue

Deino said:


> Thanks for that explanation ... but does this mean, the AH-64s are NOT used by the Army but instead by the IAF?



There is a separate order being processed by the IA for AH-64E Apaches. So we may even see Apaches in the IA's camo scheme, which is different from that of the IAF. 

Some other pics of the LCH handed over and inducted into the IAF in their all grey camo scheme.

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## Turingsage




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## MirageBlue

IAF LCH

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## MirageBlue

IAF LCHs

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## MirageBlue

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574603131308376064

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574470319212937216





LCHs are entering IAF service officially in a week's time with the first IAF LCH squadron being made operational!


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## MirageBlue

LCH and other HAL helicopters brochure







The first LCH squadron will be inducted into the IAF with 10 LCH gunships. These will be based out of Jodhpur in Rajasthan. 






Set to join IAF, LCHs can carry out night ops



> New Delhi, September 23
> 
> The first unit of indigenously made light combat helicopters (LCH) is all set to join the IAF fleet on October 3. Ten LCHs will be inducted in the first batch.
> 
> The helicopters, with the ability to carry out night warfare, will carry latest weapons, avionics and radars.
> 
> Powered by two Turbomeca Shakti engines, the copter has a service ceiling of 6,500 metres (21,000 feet), it can go over the highest of the Himalayan passes. The 5.8-tonne helicopter will carry a turret gun, a rocket firing system and air-to-air missiles.
> 
> The copter has built-in crashworthiness of landing gear, crew seats and fuel tanks. It will carry an onboard electronic warfare.
> 
> The rotor blades have advanced technology carbon fibre. Pilots will have modern avionics to work with.
> 
> The IAF operates the three-decade-old Russian Mi-25 and Mi-35 attack helicopters. One of the squadrons of the Russian-made copters is to be phased out while another one is going for a midlife upgrade. The process of induction of 22 Boeing AH-64E Apache attack helicopters has been completed.
> 
> In March, the Cabinet Committee on Security had approved procurement of 15 Limited Series Production variants of the LCH at the cost of Rs 3,887 crore along with infrastructure sanctions worth Rs 377 crore.

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## MirageBlue

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574603131308376064
The first video that the IAF has released, showing the LCH in IAF colors, operated from an IAF base by IAF pilots. The LCH will bring a massive increase in the IAF and IA's gunship capability at a very affordable cost, versus the ultra expensive Apaches. 

Hopefully they'll be networked to work together in a hunter-killer pairing.

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## MirageBlue

And the IA inducts the LCH into service BEFORE the IAF! That came as a surprise! 

LCH looks amazing in the IA camo scheme compared to the IAF's boring gray scheme


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575464477050413056

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## MirageBlue

IAF LCH

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## MirageBlue

LCH officially named 'Prachanda' meaning 'Fierce' in Sanskrit..















__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1576868403599396865


> The HAL LCH gets a name — “Prachand”, and is formally inducted into service with
> @IAF_MCC
> ’s 143 HU “Dhanush” at Jodhpur. Defence Minister
> @rajnathsingh
> wrapped up the proceedings by flying a sortie with unit CO Gp Capt Deepak Vishnoi.

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## MirageBlue

Prachanda

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## air marshal

Indian Air Force Hindustan Aeronautics ALH Dhruv - Photo by SalmanFalconsPK - Falcons.PK







falcons.pk


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