# Pakistan's Special mission aircrafts Information Pool



## Manticore

*This is a NO discussions thread opened due to the difficulty faced by members to find the core info quickly in the discussions thread. Mods will delete/move posts to the awacs discussions thread if members start discussing here
*










AWACs/AEW&Cs Aircrafts Designs

An airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system is an airborne radar system designed to detect aircraft. Used at a high altitude, the radars allow the operators to distinguish between friendly and hostile aircraft hundreds of miles away. AEW&C aircraft are used for defensive and offensive air operations. The system is used offensively to direct fighters to their target locations, and defensively to counter attacks. It can also be used to carry out surveillance, and C2BM (command and control, battle management) functions.

AEW&C is also known by the older terms "airborne early warning" (AEW) and "airborne warning and control system" 





blain2 said:


> AWACS = AEW&C. Its a change in nomenclature and terminology over the past decade or so. All current systems including the Phalcon, Wedgetail, Erieye and E3 are now categorized as AEW&C. There are some old articles lingering on the web which try to make this distinction between the two definitions. The reality is that the only AWACS was the first one and that was the E-3 Sentry. That was the name given to the aircraft. People started linking the size of the platform to assume the bigger ones were AWACS and smaller ones AEW&C, when in reality, some of the smaller systems pack more gadgetry and technology than the bigger platforms. Now everything is AEW&C.


 


blain2 said:


> Please see post 1470 for some background on this now inane discussion.
> 
> As to the your points about the need for more, there should be realization that Over the Horizon radar coverage as afforded by the Erieyes is not the only asset available to Pakistan. We have a very well integrated ground based radar network available too. Although some gaps remain however between the ground based radars and the Erieyes, PAF will be in a very good overall situation to get early warning of any impending ingresses.
> 
> The threat to Pakistan is primarily uni-directional and in the past when we have had to face threats from both the Eastern and Western borders, we have employed our ground based radars to cater to such needs. The employment of Erieyes will be no different and more importantly, the Erieyes will fill the gaps that the ground based radar coverage has. As such optimal employment and sensor fusion is more important to the PAF than worrying about maintaining 3-4 AEW flights simultaneously on station 24x7 given the current envisaged threat.
> 
> In case of hostilities, IAF will be moving many of their assets closer to the Pakistan border in any case. In such cases, although early warning by Erieye will be better than what is available currently, even then it will be limited (this goes for India as well) because the attacking aircraft are so close to their intended targets. As such the role of Pakistani Erieyes will not just be providing early warning and doing so all on their own, because as stated, they will be backed by a pretty well integrated layer of recently upgraded ground based radars. Secondly, Erieyes will be providing the very essential control function to the combat assets and for this the numbers purchased from Sweden and those to be acquired from China will suffice.
> 
> Lets also not forget that contrary to your assertion, 360 degree coverage for the PAF was/is not a deal breaker as we were offered the most upgraded version of Hawkeye 2000 based on the APS-145 radar which not only provides very good tracking ranges, but also offers full 360 degree coverage. Despite this, PAF had issues with its performance in certain regimes/terrains and these requirements were met by the Erieye despite the full 360 degree coverage issue.





blain2 said:


> It matters little whether we have 360 deg coverage or not. You have to think about various things about the employment which can make 360 degree coverage redundant.
> 
> A couple of things about the Erieye that should be noted include:
> 
> i) Although the aircraft's dorsally mounted AESA radar does not provide 360 degree coverage, the aircraft makes up for the 60 degree blind spots (aft and fore - 30 degrees each) by using its ESM capabilities to defend itself and disrupt the AI radars of the adversary if the threat is emanating from either the aft or fore side.
> 
> ii) In most cases, a 360 degree coverage is a limited use luxury because usually the AEW capability is directionally focused, meaning that you are catering for a threat emerging from a certain set of vectors/direction(s). Think about 150 degree coverage being provided by the Erieye on the eastern front and think about what the 150 degree coverage translates into in terms of miles and you will come to the realization that even with a 150 degree over the horizon coverage, Erieye provides a very significant early warning to our air defences.
> 
> Where the 360 coverage is helpful is if and when the AEW capability is being used in disaster recovery work where due to the lack of ground facilities, an AEW platform is being used to control air traffic from all directions. However even in such cases, the Erieye AEW platform(s) can be deployed in patterns where providing such coverage is not a huge challenge.
> 
> iii) In combat situations, the AEW platform may be called upon to work in extremely dense, multi-vector situations where aircraft from various bases and locations are converging or are being vectored to and from multiple locations. In this case, full 360 degree coverage would be helpful. A very good example of this has been the use of AEW platforms in the two gulf wars where USAF and NATO E-3s were employed in this role extensively and had to monitor air traffic which at times had close to above a thousand nodes in the air at the same time from all around Iraq's neighbouring countries.
> 
> Fortunately for the PAF, the threat is primarily uni-directional and while the breadth of the air space to be monitored can be large, the threat pretty much arises from one direction (in this case from the East) and will not require very dense controlling and tracking as the number of aircraft in any Indo-Pak scenario would be limited (certainly less than 200-300 or less in the air at a time). As such having a full 360 degree coverage, aside from bragging rights, does not make or break the deal for the PAF. Had this been a major concern for the PAF, they would have gone for the Hawkeye 2000 on offer by the US with its full 360 degree coverage.


 




















Oscar said:


> Blain is correct when he states that there is now no difference.
> AWACS which stands for Airborne warning and control system was coined by the US for the E-3. Before that many AEW platforms had come and gone starting in the 50's. This was the first system that put Combat control into the platform. So in reality the E-3 was the first AEW&C aircraft, the AWACS designation was meant for it originally but became a commonly used term. The correct designation for all of these platform is AEW&C.
> Although the E-2 was in service before that its early years were spent sending information back to the 'war room' of the carrier and its was known in Navy designation is E-2 AEW. The C for control came later as datalinks and radio communication matured.
> As for now, the wedgetail is the creme of the crop. An Agile beam antenna, Substantial ESM and ECCM. Crew comfort and data capacity. It also is very expensive though not the most, the most expensive is the Japanese E-767 series which cost the Japanese a lot of greenbacks.
> However, with the latest upgrades now in the offing for the E-3 which is about to go through this cycle, it will gain most if not all of the abilities of the wedgetail including a rotating AESA, More powerful ESM and with its greater loiter time, combat capacity and ability to defend itself.. will retake the title of the best machine.
> 
> The Chinese are still far behind in Radar tech and will take another 5 or so years to achieve the standard.
> What is a nice addition is, what could be the best design for an AEW&C jet..Well, something like the B-1 with an integrated conformal AESA array all over.. Being able to get to a deployment area quick.. and get out quick.





TangoViking said:


> The radar scan-limitations is not bothering anyone other than amateur forum posters. The nearest rotodome competitors can't scan 360d radar all at the same time either. To focus energy they have to stop the dome and create larger blind spots since it's no longer refreshing the full 360.
> 
> Embraer got a pdf that also points out what I mentioned b4, maybe a repost and if so I am sorry.
> 
> http://www.embraerdefensesystems.co...nho=download/pdf/01-0113296_CapaAEW_pg001.pdf
> 
> This is for previous gen Erieye used in Brazil but of course fundamentally the same praxis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ps. A very good reason for selecting the Saab 2000 is that you get all the major systems from one supplier and nation.
> 
> Aircraft:Saabs own design, own property, ready made.
> Radar: Saab
> ESM/SPS: Saab
> Operator consoles: Saab
> Flight test/training: Saab
> 
> etc.
> 
> No other western AEW company can deliver as much from under one roof.

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## Manticore

The Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar uses an active array with 200 solid state modules. The range of the S-band, 3 GHz, and side looking radar is 300 km. The 1,985-lb (900-kg) dorsal antenna is housed in a 29-ft 6.3-in (9-m) long box radome mounted atop the fuselage. Utilizing adaptive side lobe suppression, the look angle on each side is about 160 degrees. From its standard operational altitude of 6000 metres (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (198 miles), though this is a function of the aircrafts cruising height. The electronically scanned antenna can scan sectors of interest frequently while others are monitored, and a single sector can be scanned in different modes at the same time.

That last bit is a reference to the AESA radars ability to scan ground and air activity at the same time, rather than switching between these modes as conventional radars do. An Australian airpower article explains the potential benefits of AESA radars against other AEW&C offerings like the E-2C Hawkeye  and also notes the limitations of the S100B/Erieye system:

The limitation of the two sided array is that it can only cover two 120 degree sectors abeam of the aircraft, leaving 60 degree blind sectors over the nose and tail of the aircraft, and reduced antenna performance from 45 degrees off the beam aspect. Another limitation stems from the use of an airframe too small to accommodate a comprehensive self contained command, control and communications system, and other sensors such as a capable ESM and track association system.

Saabs corporate release notes that two third of the order value is for Saab and one third for Ericsson Microwave Systems [for the PS-890 Erieye radars], witch is, after the Saab acquisition, expected to be a part of Saab in September 2006. DID recently covered that acquisition.

Aerial Eyes: Pakistan&#8217;s New AWACS Fleets

The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-doppler sensor that can feed an onboard operator architecture or downlink data (via an associated datalink subsystem) to a ground-based air defence network. The system employs a large aperture, dual-sided antenna array housed in a dorsal 'plank' fairing. The antenna is fixed, and the beam is electronically scanned, which provides for improved detection and significantly enhanced tracking performance compared with radar-dome antenna systems. Erieye detects and tracks air and sea targets out to the horizon, and sometimes beyond this due to anomalous propagation  instrumented range has been measured at 450 kilometres (280 mi). Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 425 kilometres (264 mi), in a 150° broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft. Outside these sectors, performance is reduced in forward and aft directions.
Other system features include: Adaptive waveform generation (including digital, phase-coded pulse compression); Signal processing and target tracking; track while scan (TWS); low side lobe values (throughout the system's angular coverage); low- and medium-pulse repetition frequency operating modes; frequency agility; Air-to-air and sea surveillance modes; and target radar cross-section display.
The radar operates as a medium- to high-PRF pulse-Doppler, solid-state radar, in E/F-band (3 GHz), incorporating 192 two-way transmit/receive modules that combine to produce a pencil beam, steered as required within the operating 150° sector each side of the aircraft (one side at a time). It is understood that Erieye has some ability to detect aircraft in the 30° sectors fore and aft of the aircraft heading, but has no track capability in this sector

Erieye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia









The Ericsson PS-890 Erieye radar uses an active array with 200 solid state modules. The range of the S-band, 3 GHz, side looking radar is 300 km. The 1,985-lb (900-kg) dorsal antenna is housed in a 29-ft 6.3-in (9-m) long box radome mounted atop the fuselage. Utilizing adaptive side lobe suppression, the look angle on each side is about 160 degrees. From its standard operational altitude of 6000 meters (19,685 feet, or FL200) the radar has a maximum range of 450 km (279 miles). Against a fighter-sized target effective range is approximately 330 km (205 miles). Seaborne targets can be detected at 320 km (1998 miles), though this is a function of the aircraft's cruising height. The electronically scanned antenna can scan sectors of interest frequently while others are monitored, and asingle sector can be scanned in different modes at the same time. The aircraft does not carry controllers (although it's large enough to do so), but functions as an an airborne radar integrated with the total air defence network.

S 100B / SAAB 340 AEW&C



PS-890 Erieye (Sweden), Payloads

Type 
3.1 to 3.3 GHz band, pulse-Doppler, active phased-array surveillance radar.

Description 
The Ericsson Microwave PS-890 Erieye surveillance radar utilises a large aperture, dual-sided phased-array antenna that (according to Jane's sources) incorporates between 190 and 200 solid-state transceiver modules. Other system features include:adaptive waveform generation (believed to include digital, phase-coded pulse compression) and signal processingtrack-while-scan/adaptive radar control target trackinglow sidelobe values throughout the system's angular coveragelow- and medium-pulse repetition frequency operating modes'graceful' transceiver module degradationfrequency agilitya sea surveillance operating mode.
Defense & Security Intelligence & Analysis: IHS Jane&#39;s | IHS

ERIEYE (Sweden), Payloads

Type 
3.1 to 3.3 GHz band Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW & C) radar.

Description 
The Saab, Business Area Electronic Defence Systems (formerly Ericsson Microwave Systems and then Saab Microwave Systems) ERIEYE AEW & C radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-Doppler radar that can feed an onboard operator architecture or downlink data (via an associated datalink sub-system) to a ground-based air defence network. As such, it makes use of a large aperture, dual-sided antenna array that (according to Jane's sources) originally incorporated between *190 and 200 * solid-state transceiver modules and is housed in a dorsally-mounted 'plank' fairing. Other system features include:adaptive waveform generation (believed to include digital, phase-coded pulse compression), signal processing and target trackingtrack-while-scanlow sidelobe values (throughout the system's angular coverage)low- and medium-pulse repetition frequency operating modesgraceful transceiver module degradationfrequency agilityair-to-air and sea surveillance modesa target radar cross-section display.In Swedish service, the baseline sensor is designated as the PS-890 and * as applied to the Brazilian EMB-145SA (R-99A) platform, is reported as employing 192 * transceiver modules and as being optimised for the detection of low-speed aerial targets such as drug running aircraft. Readers should also be aware that over time, * ERIEYE has been progressively updated * and that the following specification data should be taken as being representative if not otherwise specified. In this context, Saab, Business Area Electronic Defence Systems reported that as of April 2008, the * latest ERIEYE configuration incorporated new generation, higher output transceiver modules; a new commercial-off-the-shelf mission system computer (understood to weight 53 per cent less than its predecessor, require 30 per cent less input power, have a footprint that was *

ERIEYE (Sweden) - Jane's Electronic Mission Aircraft



> The Erieye described:
> 
> The Erieye is an active phased-array radar, operating in the S-band (3.1 to 3.3 Ghz). Its solid state hardware uses 192 transmitter/receiver (T/R) units, that are arranged in a row at the centre of a carbon fibre antenna unit that is mounted above the carrier aircraft. The antenna plates for the radar run along both sides of the housing. Two cooling ducts run above and below the radar modules, and between the antenna plates, fed by a ram air inlet at the front of the antenna unit. The radar is a multi-mode pulse-Doppler system that has a high bandwith and a flexible waveform. The beamwidth (in azimuth and elevation) is 0.7 degrees and 9 degrees. It has a selected 3-D capability and uses an adaptive sidelobe cancelling technique to improve the performance of what is already a low sidelobe antenna design.
> 
> The Erieye radar has an instrumented range of around 450km (279 miles). It can detect a (high- altitude) fighter-sized target at around 350km (186 miles), a surface ship at around 300km (186 miles) and a low-flying cruise missile-type target at about 150km (93 miles). The ESM system has a detection range of 450km (279 miles) against a fighter radar.
> 
> The Erieye surveillance search area is defined by the operator and can be concentrated across a broad front or in a constant, specific area. The search pattern can be aircraft-stabilised, to search along the track flown by the aircraft, or ground-stabilised; i.e. always fixed on a particular area of interest no matter where the aircraft goes.
> 
> Radar modes include: (air target surveillance) air target track-while-search, support air surveillance, helicopter surveillance, high-performance air tracking, extended early warning, primary air surveillance, secondary air surveillance; (sea target surveillance) sea search.
> 
> Erieye's active phased-array radar uses a technique known as adaptive radar control. This allows for the intelligent uses of radar energy that can be concentrated on specific targets or areas of interest. Unlike a rotating radar antenna, the Erieye is not limited to scanning a fixed volume of airspace over a fixed period of time. As soon as a target of interest is detected one of the radar's multiple beams (generated by the multiple T/R modules) can be allocated to lock on to that target, with tracking initiated immediately after first detection. By concentrating on a specific area the Erieye delivers a high update rate that can be prioritised as ore information on the likely threat emerges. The first radar 'hit', or target detection, in a surveillance scan is followed immediately by a higher-energy, shaped radar beam that establishes a track confirmation far faster than a conventional radar - mini ising the time in which a target can be lost switching from detection to tracking. Any target that begins to manouvre will immediately attract a higher measurement and update rate. The rapid updating allows for effective tracking of a target that is manoeuvring hard, perhaps in an attempt to evade radar detection or ti gain an advantageous position fro weapons release.
> 
> The Erieye can track several targets, or groups of targets, in its surveillance area using individual radar beams - while all the time maintaining an ongoing search scan. At the same time the radar operations can be interleaved to offer simultaneous air priority, air surveillance and sea surveillance modes.
> The onboard mission system , as selected by all customers outside Sweden, uses an open architecture system design with COTS (commercial off the shelf) hardware and operating systems. A MIL-STD 1553B databus connects the Erieye radar, its IFF/SSR and ESM subsystems plus the navigation system, to the main command and control and data management computers. These computers are tied into datalink and other tactical communications equipment and drive the aircraft's onboard workstations.
> 
> The aircraft can be equipped with the NATO-standard MK XII IFF/SSR (Identification Friend or Foe/Secondary Surveillance Radar) that offers Mode 1, 2, 3/A, C and secure Mode 4 operations. The (optional) ESM system provides coverage in the 2-18 Ghz range. This system is designed to operate in a dense RF (radio frequency) environment with an automatic analysis and identification process, correlated with an onboard threat library. The system will deliver high DF (direction-finding) accuracy for localisation and targeting, with high sensitivity for long-range detection. For ELINT tasks target tracks and pulse descriptions canbe recorded, and exploited on the onboard consoles. A self-protection suite with an integrated threat warning system and countermeasures dispenser can be fitted.
> 
> Phased-Array Radars:
> 
> A new breed of antennas are at the cutting edge of today's radar technology. Instead of the familiar dish or flatplate antenna, they incorporate arrays of individual transmitter/receiver (T/R) modules, that can be independently controlled.
> 
> Each T/R module operates as a separate 'mini radar'.
> 
> The modules can be grouped together to operate as one large radar or several smaller radars - all looking in different directions and at different targets. These groups are controlled in phase, to either transmit or receive. Therefore, they can be actively 'looking' for targets like a normal radar, or passively 'listening' to detect the emissions from other, hostile, electronic emitters.
> 
> Because the T/R modules are arranged in rows these radars are often referred to as planar arrays, but because of the way they operate (using several simultaneous phases instead of just one) they are most commonly referred to as phased-arrays.
> 
> The first generation of phased-array radars were largely passive phased-arrays. Examples include the B-2s APQ-181 (developed by Hughes), the Rafale's RBE (developed by Thomson-CSF) and the Mig-31's Zaslon (developed by Phazotron). Passive arrays are essentially single arrays, with one transmitter driving all the elements of the array. The phase of the transmissions from each element is then delayed through a beam-forming computer to switch the radio frequency (RF) energy along different delay paths, producing the required phase changes in each module.
> 
> In an active phased-array, the mass of smaller, individual T/R modules (typically in their hundreds) does away with the need to manipulate a single radar beam. As in a passive array the electronic scanning in the horizontal and vertical planes is controlled by the phase of the individual radiating elements. However, in the active array, each of these has its own transmitter, receiver and antenna. Each module transmits radar pulses individually, controlled in phase so that the complete array will produce a beam of transmitted energy or a receive beam of the required shape, all directed in the desired direction.
> 
> Electronic scanning allows the user to look in any direction at any time, to acquire near-simultaneous target updates from several different directions. The Erieye's S-band radar offers extremely sharp and narrow main beams, with low sidelobes, compared to the UHF wavelenght of other phased-arrays.
> 
> Source: International Air Power Review, Volume 11
> 
> 
> Argus in Operation
> 
> The Swedish Air Force conducted its first full sclae exercise with the Gripen and Argus (Saab 340AEW&C) early in 1999. The FSR 890 (Argus S 100B) is an integral part of Flygvapnet's FV2000 (Air Force 2000) plan for a fully-integrated network-centric warfighting capability.
> 
> Under the Swedish concept of operations , the S 100B is controlled by the national network of underground StriC (Stridsledningscentral) control and reporting centres. Data is transmitted from the air using the secure high-speed datalink element of the TARAS digital tactical radio system.
> 
> The StriC operators fuse the information from the FSR 890 with that from the rest of the national radar and sensor network to build a complete picture of the battlespace. From the StriC, FSR 890 data can be uplinked to other aircraft, such as the JAS 39 Gripen, or across to the Navy's own command centres for transmission to ships at sea.
> 
> The six S 100Bs represented maximum value at minimum cost. By eliminating onboard operators from the equation, Sweden also did away with the need to recruit, train and mantain a corps of personnel to operate the aircraft. Sweden already had a highly integrated C2 system - and the air force was entering a period of heavy cutbacks when every resource had to be maximized.
> 
> In Flygvapnet service the Erieye has demosntrated an instrumented range of 450km (280 miles) - and Ericsson points out that this figure is a software limit set by the Swedish customer. Some company demonstrations have indicated an actual detection range of 500km (310 miles). There is an unspoken acknowledgement that, in some areas, the Erieye's ground functions were deliberately limited to dissuade army and navy access to the system. Patrolling at around 160 kt (296 km/h) the S 100B has an on-station endurance of six hours.
> 
> Sweden has examined the possibility of adding operator stations to its S 100Bs, to support possible deployed operations. The aircraft already has a 'technical operator's station' in the main cabin (used largely for flight test purposes) but there is an acknowledgement that 2 or 3 Argus plus a squadron of Gripens could function like a small independent air force, if Flygvapnet chose to do so.
> 
> When Ericsson started to develop the Erieye there was no other phased-array AEW radar available - or even a plan for one. Since then the Israeli-developed Phalcon system has come to the market. There is only one user of a single system (Chile's Condor aircraft) althoug a deal has now been struck to supply the Phalcon to India, using an Il-76 platform (US pressure on Israel blocked an earlier Phalcon deal with China). The Phalcon uses a 1-Ghz L-band transmitter. This has a direct effect on the size of the platform aircraft, because longer wavelength radars need a corresponding larger antenna to produce their given beamwidth.
> 
> One assessment of this is that longer wavelength radars benefit from an uncomplicated design but are very easy to jam.
> 
> Higher frequency radars, such as the 3-Ghz S-band Erieye, have a narrower beam-width. Using a 8-m (26-ft 2-in) antenna, for example, an L-band radar will have three times the beamwidth of an equivalent S-band transmitter. The wider a radar's beam, the easier it is for hostile jamming to isolate it and crack it open. The Erieye produces a 1 degree beam that is very narrow, focused and hard to jam. By way of comparison, a typical UHF beamwidth could be around 10 times that.
> 
> The Swedish version of the Erieye covers an arc of 120 degrees on either side of the aircraft. Fro Brazil's R 99As this coverage was increased to a 150 degrees arc (still maintaining the 1 degree beamwidth). While Ericsson has always been dismissive of the criticism that its radar's basic design does not afford a full 360 degrees coverage, it has quietly moved to provide just that. The radar fitted to Greece's EMB 145 AEW&Cs delivers (compensated) 360 degrees coverage. Sweden's FSR 890 system can track 300 air targets and 300 maritime targets. For export customers that capability has been significantly expanded. The Greek aircraft, for example, are capable of tracking 1,000 air targets and 1,000 sea targets.
> 
> Ericsson says that the Erieye costs between one eigth and one tenth of an E-3 Sentry to operate and has quoted a cost of USD500 per flight hour for the Erieye, compared to USD 2,700 for an E-2C Hawkeye and USD 8,300 for an E-3 Sentry.
> 
> Brazilians R 99As and R99Bs are based at Anapolis AB in the state of Goias, central Brazil. They are flown by the 2nd/6th GAV (Grupo de Aviacao, aviation group). When in the air their call sing is 'Guardiao' (guardian). The FAB appears to be very pleased with their performance so far. Towards the end of 2003, the Brazilian press reported that an R 99A had played a crucial role in the rescue of 70 Argentinean captives that were being held by Peruvian Guerrillas. There are no official details of the mission but it is understood that R 99As were used to locate suspicious air traffic that pin-pointed the group's location.
> 
> Source: International Air Power Review, Volume 11




other than wiki and this very old post, i have not seen the 192 figure any where

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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore

Breguet Atlantique





P-3 Orion





falcon_da_20











zdk-03


ZDK-03 is an export AWACS system being developed for the Pakistani Air Force. This project was initiated in the early 2000. A Y-8 AWACS testbed (S/N T0518/Project 021) based on Y-8 Category II Platform was first discovered at CFTE in early 2006. Unlike KJ-200, this variant carries a traditional rotodome above its fuselage, with a mechanically rotating antenna inside. The PESA radar is thought to scan electronically in elevation but mechanically in azimuth. Therefore the Y-8 AWACS was speculated to be developed for the export market only as it appears less advanced than KJ-200 which features a fixed AESA radar. However this design does provide a true 360° coverage and carry a cheaper price tag. The AEW radar may be the product of the 38th Institute/CETC, but no details are available. The aircraft also features a solid nose and tail with MAWS sensors on both sides, as well as small vertical stabilizers attached to its tailplanes. Another two MAWS sensors are attached to the tailcone as well. Additional fairings are seen at the wingtips and the tail housing ESM antennas. The Y-8 AWACS protoype flew to Pakistan and was evaluated by Pakistani AF in 2006. After some negotiations a much improved design was developed based on PAF's specifications. The variant is now named ZDK-03 (ZDK means CETC) and is based on the new Y-8 Category III Platform featuring WJ-6C turboprops with 6-blade high efficiency propellers. It was reported in early 2009 that a total of 4 were ordered by PAF in a $278m contract. The first ZDK-03 prototype rolled out in November 2010 at SAC. Since then it has been undergoing test at CFTE (S/N 733). ZDK-03 is expected to serve as the airborne command & control center for the JF-17 fighter fleet currently in service with PAF. However it does not have the secure NATO datalink installed to effectively command western fighter aircraft such as American F-16. Therefore ZDK-03 operates together with Saab-2000 in a "high-low" combination in order to coordinate various Chinese and western made combat aircraft effectively. The first ZDK-03 (S/N 11-001) was delivered to PAF in December 2011. The 2nd (S/N 11-002) was delivered some time later. A recent image (March 2012) suggested that at least one more ZDK-03 has been built.
Chinese Military Aviation: Surveillance Aircraft II

Incorporating a Chinese AESA radar mounted on the Y-8F600 platform, the radar is reported to have a greater range than that of the PAF&#8217;s Saab 2000 Erieye AEW+C radar

The ZDK-03 &#8216;Karakoram Eagle&#8217; AWACS is equipped with a sophisticated ESM system that can intercept and analyze signals from airborne and surface
radiators. It is an all weather, multi-sensor early warning command
& control system that houses a 3D rotodome airborne radar.

US$70 MILLION SHAANXI ZDK-03 KARAKORAM EAGLE AEW+C PLANE (PHOTO CREDIT AND REPORT: PAF FALCONS) | Beegeagle's Blog


??? aesa or pesa

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## Manticore

http://i.imgur.com/indfDRU.jpg
http://www.defence.pk/gallery/data/654/medium/saab_2000_erieye_paf.jpg
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http://i.imgur.com/Lvazs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/I2rjV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dGhoO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cDFTY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LjjX3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NE3j1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/K1VBD.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/NiWt8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/262ef.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/C7AxS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HN3lV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OK1J5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DFoEX.jpg

some reuploaded links of saab

--------------------------------------------------------


thread is now open for your contributions

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## Donatello

Excellent effort, as usual, by ANTIBODY.

What is the role of No.24 Squadron, Blinders, now that the PAF has two other special mission aircraft types at it's disposal?

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## Bratva

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> A bit of correction required, since presented information is being attributed to me.
> 
> 1. Erieye uses AESA 75 deg on either side of perpendicular, meaning 75+75 = 150 deg on one side, 150 deg on the otherside, totaling 300 degree of total instantaneous coverage on both sides. Information is extracted from Erieye Brochures, and is confirmed since it is based on manufacturer's claims.
> 
> 2. ZDK-03 must have atleast 60 deg on either side of perpendicular, meaning 120 deg cone, atleast. Information is a guess from my side as Chinese KJ2000 and KJ200 have AESA with atleast the same specs, but it could be higher. I have no hard evidence to support this because Chinese AESA have not been formally presented in any brochures etc. I am still looking for evidences regarding this, but so far no hard evidence.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper






S10 said:


> If I am not mistaken, ZDK-03 features two AESA arrays instead of three on KJ-2000, therefore a rotating dome is needed. The lack of third array is purely a cost saving consideration.






Sapper said:


> Thats not the ONLY reason, another reason is that a larger array can be placed in a rotating dome giving more range, while placing triangular dome reduces the size of each array by ~20%.
> 
> A simple trignometric analysis shows that the maximum array size of triangular dome (like KJ2000 and Phalcon) is 20% less than a straight radial array along its diameter (like E-3-Sentry, E-2D-Hawkeye, ZDK03).
> 
> Moreover, previously the pulse doppler version of rotating domes gave a 20sec radar darkness over any perticular point due to the fact that they could only illuminate targets in direct line of sight in perpendicular to the array, but the AESA doesnot have that restriction. Instead AESA can electronically steer a radar beam to illuminate 60 degrees to either side of perpendicular. This covers 120 degree to each side totalling 240 degrees of instantaneous view, while leaving 60 degree on each corner in radar darkness. When rotating at same speed of 40 sec per rotation, same as with pulse dopler version, it will illuminate a full 360 degree circle in 6 seconds. Thus a target is re-illuminated 6 seconds after it goes into dark region. Also this is assuming ZDK-03 has AESA with 120 degree field of view, which is only an assumption. In actuality it might have 150 degree field of view AESA (like Erieye atop Saab2000) which will reduce re-acquisition time to 3 sec.
> 
> One more thing to note is that fixed dome suffers from constant side lobe attenuations in regions deviating close its electronic steering boundary, for extended periods of time; while giving good target data at regions close to perpendicular. On the other hand, rotating dome ensures maximum search precision for all 360 degrees within a maximum of 10 seconds, and that too without changing the heading of the platform itself.
> 
> If you ask me, having 20% plus range is much much more desirable than 3 seconds of radar darkness, *besides* being cost effective as well.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper





Sapper said:


> Now my first assumption is that two complimenting AESAs are placed inside the rotating dome, i.e. the similar kind of double sided Erieye configuration, but in rotating configuration. This is based on the assumption that
> 1. Dual sided aesa was already available with china on Y-8 platform at similar cost, but not opted for by PAF,
> 2. AESA is comparatively thin and does not require additional wasted space for dedicated transmitter assembly on the backside, since every single unit is itself a transmitter reciever on its own.
> 3. China already posses the technology to fit 3xAESA in a radome and 2xAESA in sandwitch-BalanceBeam configurations, placing the balance beam config would have been no problem to place into a rotating radome.
> 
> If thats the case for ZDK-03 (unless proven on the contrary) I will proceed with the following calculations.
> 
> 
> Assume 40 sec per rotation, which is normal, and 120 arch illumination (60 deg from perpedicular) for AESA array, which is also normal.
> 360 deg per 40 sec = 9 deg per sec (RotationSpeed)
> 
> Assume a target is at 0-deg, Radar starts spinning, at radar's-0-deg, target is fully perpedicular and perfectly lit
> Radar goes to 45-deg, still lit.
> Radar goes 60-deg, still lit.
> Radar goes 61-deg, target lost.
> Now radar goes 90-deg, target is still lost.
> Radar goes 119-deg, still lost.
> Now radar comes to 120 deg, still lost for the array pointing 120, but the array facing exactly opposite to it i.e. at 120+180 deg = 300-deg has illumination till 360 deg, which is the same as 0-deg, target lit by opposing array, target acquired.
> 
> Now target lost at 61-deg ... and reacquired at 120-deg.
> Lost-Time = 60-deg / RotationSpeed = 60 / 9 = 6.6 sec
> 
> 
> I may be wrong, and ZDK-03 might only have a single AESA pointing to one side, as in legacy E3Sentry, in which case the re-acquisition will take 26 seconds to re-acquire target, but lets wait for the time when PAF or China releases specs. If thats the case apologies in advance.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



Thanx AntiBody. Splendid effort

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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Again, some pointless "degrade" attempt for self satisfaction.
> THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AWACS and AEW&C.
> 
> Just your feeble attempt to degrade something you havent a clue about.
> 
> Link-16 has the ability to hand-off target information to all upcoming PAF aircraft.
> 
> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-24-8/tadilj.pdf
> Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS)
> $5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s
> http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents%20and%20Images/Air/Sensor%20Systems/ERIEYE/ERIEYE_Short_100422.pdf
> 
> The Links should provide those people who are actually here to learn something that not only is link-16 capable of target information relay and handoff, it equips Pakistan's Erieye and F-16 fleets along with ground terminals.
> Those who are only here to be thickheaded and skeptical just for the sake to let PAF down will have no difference in their opinions.
> 
> Now, The PAF has built a new link for the JF-17 with help from the Germans(whose radio it uses and not Chinese as some usual skeptics would want to assume) that is not only link-16 compatible but incorporates elements from link-22 as well.
> These German Radio's not only equip the JF-17 , they also equip the Mirage ROSE, F-7PG fleets.
> About R&S Pakistan (Rohde & Schwarz)





Oscar said:


> I have actively participated in the initial design phase for a Link-16 compatible protocol(among other things).. So I disagree with yours.
> However, agreeing to disagreeing amicably is still better than arguments with no end. Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> Not all, but almost all of them will be.
> The F-7's ,Mirage,JF-17 and F-16 fleet are now all secure comms compatible with each other and the Erieyes.
> The F-16's are all MIDS compatible with the Erieyes...and in about a year or so. ..with the JF-17 and ZDK-03.





Oscar said:


> Exactly, So if the contributor in this case.. becomes the Pakistani AEW system.. and is using the declassified standard for Link-16 messages.(available). It can not only interact and pass on information to the MIDS on the F-16. but also to any other platform that has the ability to read link-16 format.
> I am not referring to the cryptographic part.. since that you can implement on your own..or select.
> I am referring to the passing of Link-16 messages.. basically the protocol.
> 
> The reason I am asking you for your opinion is because this was being done where I worked. Initially the idea was to let the Links between the swedes Awacs and the F-16s communicate to the ground stations(basically complete packages with no Pakistani knowledge of what went inside the end terminals till it got to the application layer... and from there repackaging that data into a local datalink and re-transmitting it out to other assets.
> 
> However, it was decided to give the swedish systems the ability to manage the Chinese systems as well, so a custom datalink was designed inhouse with assistance(of which I worked on secure voice) that allows the swedish system to play a similar role as the E-3 does for the Chinese systems along with the F-16's.
> 
> In other words, you may not be able to replicate the cryptography.. but everything below the presentation layer can be replicated.
> http://www.idlsoc.com/Documents/Symposiums/IDLS2006/viasat_quistorf.pdf
> 
> Infact..* I think it was YOU who first led me to the standards and references for Link-16 through PMwhen the initial work on it began!* about two years ago.
> 
> So, @gambit has been a contributor to the development of the Pakistan Air Force's Datalink





Oscar said:


> Agreed.. after all.. It happened in front of me. But I think some people need to take an outsiders word for it being possible because believing a Pakistani(no matter what their reputation) is equal to shirk.





Oscar said:


> No I get it.. and NO.
> The idea was to basically let the proprietary system work on its own.. i.e
> Erieye Link-16/ equipment- MID-LVT(F-16) as an independent link.
> Erieye- other assets-GC locally developed link.
> So currently... the F-16's cannot share information from the other PAF assets without an intermediary.. but the initial idea of keeping it confined to the ground stations has been changed to making all PAF AEW assets capable of linking with each other and every other asset.(Voice for some reason will be left out due to all PAF assets using a modified version of this set
> R&S®M3AR Software Defined Radios (Rohde & Schwarz - Products - Secure Communications - Airborne Radiocommunications))
> 
> Before I left, the next phase was to get the local "link" to work with the F-16s..
> I cannot comment on hows(my field is..or was.. secure voice.).. just that they were confident on it being done.. whether it was realistic or not is no longer mine to assess but promises have been made that cant be kept.,..on the other hand there have been semi-successful attempts to get into certain sections of US/European hardware and see what was running inside(not easy when you have machine instructions to read).
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.




Nice Info

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## Jango

Donatello said:


> Excellent effort, as usual, by ANTIBODY.
> 
> What is the role of No.24 Squadron, Blinders, now that the PAF has two other special mission aircraft types at it's disposal?



The DA20 is a ELINT and EW aircraft, not a AWACS...an AWACS is basically a ATC flying in the air...while the DA 20 of the 24 sqn cannot do that job, they are for picking up radio signals and do the intel, they do no control or guide the airborne assets.

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## Manticore

good to see members pitching in 
-------------------------------------------------

Karakoram Eagle
ZDK-03 has been specifically designed to operate out of high-altitude air bases

Prasun K. Sengupta
It now seems that it won&#8217;t be just the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) that will receive the ZDK-03 &#8216;Karakoram Eagle&#8217; airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, but the People&#8217;s Liberation Army&#8217;s Air Force (PLAAF) as well. The four-engine ZDK-03 has been specifically designed to operate out of high-altitude air bases of the type located within China&#8217;s Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) and in the Northern Areas section of ****************** Kashmir, and it makes use of the Y-8AF airframe that was developed by AVIC Shaanxi Aircraft Industry Corp Ltd and Shaanxi Liaoyuan Aero-Mech Corp in cooperation with Ukraine&#8217;s Antonov ASTC.


The ZDK houses a rotodome housing a rotating UHF-band mechanically scanning antenna capable of electronic beam-steering &#8212; similar to the APY-9 radar developed by Lockheed Martin Maritime Systems & Sensors for the aircraft carrier-based E-2C Hawkeye 2000 AEW & C aircraft. Such a radar has a range beyond 400km and is optimised for detecting and tracking targets with highly reduced cross-sections, such as land attack cruise missiles. Electronic scanning enables the radar to function both as a rotating beam generating 360-degree coverage, and as a multi-pulse staring beam that can track stressing targets. In the enhanced sector scan mode, the radar makes use steerable electronic scanning technology, while in the enhanced tracking sector mode, pure electronic scanning, geographically stabilised or following a target, provides enhanced detection and tracking in a selected sector.

The roll-out ceremony of first ZDK-03 &#8216;Karakoram Eagle&#8217; AEW & C aircraft took place in Hanzhong, in China&#8217;s Shaanxi province, on November 13 last year. The ceremony, which was attended by the PAF&#8217;s Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, coincided with President Asif Ali Zardari&#8217;s visit to China &#8212; his sixth since assuming the position in 2008. It may be recalled that the PAF had inked a USD 278 million contract in December 2008 with China&#8217;s CETC International for the joint development of four ZDK-03s, which are due for delivery in the first quarter of next year.

FORCE-A Complete News Magazine on National Security-Defence Magazine,Indian Defence,AERO India 2011 Bangalore Bengaluru,magazine on Indian navy,Indian Army,Indian Air Force,Indian Paramilitary forces,Naxalism,Jammu & Kashmir,terrorism,national securi




Production ZDK-03 AEW&C system, dubbed the Karakorum Eagle, one of four systems exported to Pakistan on the late production Shaanxi Y-8 airframe. The unusual camouflage is modelled on the USAF MC-2A proposal and is optimal for high altitude ISR aircraft (PAF).




http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-AWACS-Programs.html






http://www.airwar.ru/enc/spy/zdk03.html

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## Manticore

P-3 Orion Research Group

why I posted p3c in this category


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## Munir

mafiya said:


> Nice Info



The info on Germen comm system is correct. I know that we had German comm set and the active antenna on the back on behind nose is the one with that would explain that it is correct.  That was the reason that PAF Il78 visited germany.

http://pafwallpapers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/jf-17_thunder_uhf-vhf_antenna_01.jpg


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## Manticore

while opening this thread, I had 'electronics' in mind, not simple transport aircrafts and air refuellers

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## Jango

PAF had bought 4 Saab 2000 ERIEYE AWACS aircraft from Sweden. Following a short history.

1- *Serial number 10025*:

Construction Number (MSN): 025
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
First Flight:	26-09-1995
Age:	17.6 Years
Test registration:	SE-025

Former operators of the aircraft:

Deutsche BA, Lithuanian airlines, Fly LAL.

PAF got this aircraft in 2010.







2- *Serial number 10040:*

Construction Number: (MSN)	040
Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
First Flight:	30-09-1996
Age:16.6 Years
Test registration:	SE-040

Former operators:

Regional airlines.

PAF got this aircraft in 2009.






*3- Serial number 10045:*

Construction Number (MSN):	045
Aircraft Type:	Saab 2000
First Flight:	03-03-1997
Age:	16.1 Years
Test registration:	SE-045

Former operators:

Europcharter, Regional, Fly LAL.

Aircraft rumored to be delivered to PAF in 2010.

No pictures as of yet in operational service. The following picture is rumored to be of 10045 though.











*4- Serial number 09049:*

Construction Number (MSN):	049
Aircraft Type:	Saab 2000
First Flight:	26-06-1997
Age:	15.8 Years
Test registration:	SE-049

Aircraft delivered in 2009.






All Saab 2000's except the VIP version are with 3 Squadron stationed at PAF Minhas, Kamra.

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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


>



THese are PAF FLIR systems fitted with Star Safire and Star Brite systems.



> In early 2009, ACM Suleman had come up with an idea to install a forward-looking infrared (FLIR) system on one of the PAF's C-130B Hercules transport aircraft which could remain
> airborne for up to eight hours.
> 
> He recalls: "My engineers told me we could put it on the side door, but I said it would only record from one side of the aircraft if we did! I suggested we put it under the chin, which meant the bulkhead would have to be cut.
> 
> "We discussed it with the aircraft manufacturer but were quoted around $10 million and it would take eight to nine months. We could not afford to send a transport aircraft away for that long, and where would we get the money from?"
> 
> Instead PAF engineers did the work and within a couple of months there was a system on board with two large flat screens in the passenger area, so personnel could seethe live video. One screen displays a map of the area that the aircraft was flying over and the other shows the FLIR video, watched by army intelligence officers. When the Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, saw the system working during a sortie in August 2009 he was impressed, and by October 2009, at the start of Operation Rah-e-Nijat, the FLIR Hercules was operational.
> 
> The success of the Pakistan Army in defeating the militants was by now moving at a faster pace, largely due to the PAF's bombing campaign. Combined ops followed a familiar routine - strike aircraft softened up the enemy and attack helicopters engaged any remaining targetsbefore the troops moved in.
> 
> F-16s would normally operate at 10,000-18,000ft (3,048- 5,486m) and dive-bomb in; sometimes if they got clearance they would get down to 8,000ft (2,438m). Mirages, when used, would go down lower. By December 2009, the bombing campaigns had all but ended.
> 
> Today, the PAF continues to support army personnel whenever required as it attempts to rid Pakistan of the people who co-ordinate bomb attacks on innocent civilians in the country. With recent deliveries of new equipment, joint operations can now be undertaken 24 hours a day. This represents another huge leap in capability as the PAF continues to revolutionise its 0 war-fighting procedures.
> 
> 1. Introduction of the DB-110 sensor into PAF service has meant the reconnaissance variant of the Mirage is all but redundant.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/236765-paf-prowess.html#ixzz2RAOjEYOZ








2 aircraft are believed to be fitted with the FLIR systems.

Pak Army also has same FLIR systems installed on a couple of Mi-17 and Bell 412.

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## Jango

These systems are installed by the same company on both PN and Pak Army. HISS - World Class Surveillance Systems Integration

Atleast 2 Fokker aircraft of Pak Navy are installed with a FLIR system.

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## Bratva



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## Jango

PAF also has another type of AWACS, the ZDK-03.

*A total of 4 are in order, with 2 delivered and 1 undergoing crew familiarization and the 4th one undergoing final tests.*

Here is the 1st one with serial number *11-001*:






And here is the 2nd one *11-002*:






Both were delivered in 2011-early 2012.

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## Rajput_Pakistani

I wish PAF post the photos of remaining Saabs and put an end to the controversy.


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Excellent effort, as usual, by ANTIBODY.
> 
> What is the role of No.24 Squadron, Blinders, now that the PAF has two other special mission aircraft types at it's disposal?



ECM squadron


----------



## acetophenol

nuclearpak said:


> PAF had bought 4 Saab 2000 ERIEYE AWACS aircraft from Sweden. Following a short history.
> 
> 1- *Serial number 10025*:
> 
> Construction Number (MSN): 025
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> First Flight:	26-09-1995
> Age:	17.6 Years
> Test registration:	SE-025
> 
> Former operators of the aircraft:
> 
> Deutsche BA, Lithuanian airlines, Fly LAL.
> 
> PAF got this aircraft in 2010.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2- *Serial number 10040:*
> 
> Construction Number: (MSN)	040
> Aircraft Type: Saab 2000
> First Flight:	30-09-1996
> Age:16.6 Years
> Test registration:	SE-040
> 
> Former operators:
> 
> Regional airlines.
> 
> PAF got this aircraft in 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *3- Serial number 10045:*
> 
> Construction Number (MSN):	045
> Aircraft Type:	Saab 2000
> First Flight:	03-03-1997
> Age:	16.1 Years
> Test registration:	SE-045
> 
> Former operators:
> 
> Europcharter, Regional, Fly LAL.
> 
> Aircraft rumored to be delivered to PAF in 2010.
> 
> No pictures as of yet in operational service. The following picture is rumored to be of 10045 though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *4- Serial number 09049:*
> 
> Construction Number (MSN):	049
> Aircraft Type:	Saab 2000
> First Flight:	26-06-1997
> Age:	15.8 Years
> Test registration:	SE-049
> 
> Aircraft delivered in 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All Saab 2000's except the VIP version are with 3 Squadron stationed at PAF Minhas, Kamra.



Bro,
So PAF's Awacs are based on second hand airframes? Don't you think its a bad decision?


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## Jango

acetophenol said:


> Bro,
> So PAF's Awacs are based on second hand airframes? Don't you think its a bad decision?



Saab 2000 isn't made anymore...

Secondly, a second hand frame is less costly.

Thirdly, they were with regional airliners, so I wouldn't expect them to be really high on the miles, and they are commercial jets, so they are built for about 30 years of life, so 15-16 years life isn't that bad.

It's all about the costs.


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## acetophenol

nuclearpak said:


> Saab 2000 isn't made anymore...
> 
> Secondly, a second hand frame is less costly.
> 
> Thirdly, they were with regional airliners, so I wouldn't expect them to be really high on the miles, and they are commercial jets, so they are built for about 30 years of life, so 15-16 years life isn't that bad.
> 
> It's all about the costs.



But bro,
When you have custom built airframes for you it would have been easier to integrate sensors and stuff. I wouldn't favour a 16 yr old frame to be made into a awac platform due to the structural modifications it had to undergo,but thats me only. I am sure your experts have done whats good for you.

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## Manticore

this aircraft's operating costs are lower, flight hours/single sortie are higher as compared to other options


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## Jango

acetophenol said:


> But bro,
> When you have custom built airframes for you it would have been easier to integrate sensors and stuff. I wouldn't favour a 16 yr old frame to be made into a awac platform due to the structural modifications it had to undergo,but thats me only. I am sure your experts have done whats good for you.



Saab 2000 isn't made anymore. That was the problem. PAF was looking for a turbo prop, the ATR's and Fokker's didn't give us the required cabin space (a hunch) and there aren't many other platforms.

For a custom made, you need money, a whole lot of money, which we don't have!

Anyways, if you wanna pursue this further, let's go into the main thread, ANTIBODY bhaiyya ghussa ho jayen gay!

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## Manticore

links to pictures are not working, NP


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## Jango

ANTIBODY said:


> links to pictures are not working, NP



Check now...

A third PAF C-130 with the FLIR system was spotted recently, serial number 3699...grey camo.

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## Super Falcon

i personally feel with the skill our armed man have got our millitary think tank and government dont provide them state of the art equipment or sensible equipment to them to form killing machine balance between training and equipment not been balanced in pakistan armed forces armed forces think tank highly think for training but in todays war you need have balance in these parts today they are going for equipment which hardly go next 10 years with force

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## imiakhtar

nuclearpak said:


> I wouldn't expect them to be really high on the miles,



With aged aircraft such as these Saabs, mileage (number of hours) is not the issue. It's the number of cycles that you've got to look out for as they have the greatest bearing on aircraft maintenance due to the constant pressurisation/depressurisation and takeoff/landing stresses the components undergo. This is especially true of regional aircraft as they operate in low flight hour:high cycle environments with up to 10 sectors (and therefore cycles) a day.

You typically see landing gears overhauled at the 10 year mark. It won't be long before these Saabs face their 2nd gear overhaul.

In addition to the aforementioned P-3s, C-130 FLIR, Saabs and what not, let us not forget the pair (?) of King air Beechcraft equipped for ISTAR duties.

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## HAIDER

@fatman17 ..Breguet is back in service or still parked in storage ? . Plus what happened to damaged AWAC in Kamara any of them back in service or how many of them out of commission ?

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## fatman17

HAIDER said:


> @fatman17 ..Breguet is back in service or still parked in storage ? . Plus what happened to damaged AWAC in Kamara any of them back in service or how many of them out of commission ?



a single example of Breguet Atlantique is still operational. the 2 destroyed P3-C's are obvious writeoffs.

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## Manticore

*Trends In Modern Special Mission Aircraft: Israeli perspective*

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## Manticore



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## imiakhtar

Manticore, I suggest you remove the last pic as it has been pinched from airliners.net and the pic has not been credited to the photographer (asuspine). 

The original can be viewed here:

Photos: Shaanxi ZDK-03 (Y-8) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net


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## Donatello

imiakhtar said:


> Manticore, I suggest you remove the last pic as it has been pinched from airliners.net and the pic has not been credited to the photographer (asuspine).
> 
> The original can be viewed here:
> 
> Photos: Shaanxi ZDK-03 (Y-8) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net



It says on the picture itself, so no need to copy-right, since most photographers publish their work on Airliners.net so people may share and use the pics, but not for any commercial purpose without their explicit permission.

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## Manticore

*The Multi-Mission Imaging Solution for Land and Air Applications*



The Star SAFIRE® III is one of the world’s most popular gyro-stabilized EO/IR systems. Carrying seven payloads and tested/qualified beyond Mil Specs, this system is the workhorse for airborne, land and maritime force protection and medevac in hotspots around the world. Over 500 Star SAFIRE III’s have been delivered to the U.S. military, NATO and nations worldwide.
Star SAFIRE III - FLIR® Detection & Protection - Full Spectrum Technologies for Homeland Security & Force Protection
*Star SAFIRE III data sheet*

Airborne LTR A4
Land LTR A4

*FEATURES*

Multi-mission capable
High-resolution color spotter scope
Matched multi-FOV optics
Image intensified low-light camera
Image blending
Reliable 24/7 operation
Optimized usability
Multiple laser payloads
Maintain Star SAFIRE family compatibility
Commercially developed, MIL qualified
*BENEFITS*

Can be used in applications as diverse as land force protection, shipboard open ocean and littoral patrol, and long range airborne reconnaissance
Extends identification range performance by providing maximum detail from covert stand-off distances
All cameras feature multiple FOVs maintaining situational awareness while also achieving long range performance and enabling Image Blending
Brings true all day and all night imaging capability in multiple wavebands, and forms the basis for image blending
Combine critical spectral information from IR imager with image intensified low-light camera or long range spotter scope
High MTBF and proven combat survivability in demanding arctic and desert environments
View and track ground locations using the fully-embedded IMU; follow moving targets with the multi-mode Autotracker
Covertly illuminate wide areas, point out distant targets to other forces, and determine target distance and location
Total cable compatibility allows operators to upgrade existing Star SAFIRE family installations with plug-and-play simplicity
All-weather design is qualified to the most demanding requirements of MIL-STD-810 and 461

*Multi-Mission, AWR Certified Imaging Solution for HH-60 and UH-60 Blackhawk Variants*



The world standard in 320x240 InSb thermal imaging, Star SAFIRE II can carry up to five separate payloads: long-range thermal imager, low-light TV, ultra long-range spotter scope, laser rangefinder and laser illuminator. Fully AWR-certified for use on US Army UH- & HH-60 A and L model Blackhawks, the Star SAFIRE II is combat-proven, reliable and ready.

*Star SAFIRE II data sheet LTR A4*

*FEATURES*

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Multiple payloads
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The Star SAFIRE II’s microscanned 320x240 mid-wave infrared array gives outstanding detection, recognition, and identification ranges in an affordable 15” imaging system
Star SAFIRE II’s hermetically sealed gimbal is battle-tested, AWR certified, and thrives in the harshest operating environments
Star SAFIRE II’s modular design and revolutionary optical bench allow simultaneous installation of up to 5 imagers in the same gimbal
The SAFIRE family of gimbals features 5-axis stabilization for solid imagery in rough conditions
The CCD-TV camera has a low-light, near-IR mode that is useful in areas with minimal illumination
Star SAFIRE II’s dynamic target Autotracker follows maneuvering targets from moving aircraft, decreasing operator workload
With over 3,000 SAFIRE systems installed on over 60 aircraft types around the world, the Star SAFIRE II is a solid performer in the definitive lineage of infrared imagers

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## Manticore

Bratva said:


> ELINT system installed in ZDK-03
> 
> CETC KZ800 Airborne Electronic Intelligence System
> 
> The KZ800 is a computerised airborne electronic intelligence (ELINT) system designed to be installed on medium- to large-size aircraft to detect, identify and locate hostile land-based or shipborne radar emitters operating within frequency band 1.0-18.0GHz, and accurately measure and analyse the intercepted signal parameters. The analysis of the aforesaid radar information can provide key information on the configurations of hostile air defense radar networks, the distribution of enemy operational airports, and the deployment of enemy artillery and missile troops.
> 
> View attachment 151979





Dazzler said:


> thats the original kz-800, the one on zdk is a newer model, a hybrid type with chinese kj-2000 module influence.

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## hassan1




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## fatman17

PAF Dassault Falcon 20F (serial# J-469) in Paris in 1998



PAF Dassault Falcon 20F (serial# J-469) in Paris in 1998

Rare photo of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Dassault Falcon 20F (serial# J-469) taken at Paris - Le Bourget (LBG / LFPB), France, on June 18, 1998.

J-469 is one of two Dassault Falcon 20F aircraft in PAF inventory modified for ELectronic signalsINTelligence/Electronic Counter Measures (ELINT/ECM) missions. The other such Dassault Falcon 20F is serial number J-468.

The two Dassault Falcon 20F aircraft belong to PAF No. 24 Squadron "Blinders".

Here's photo of PAF Dassault Falcon 20F (serial# J-469).


Note "Blinders" painted on J-469 fuselage and tail; also note name "Iqbal" painted below flight deck windows in memory of Squadron Leader Mohammad Iqbal who lost his life for the country during 1965 war. The name is painted on both sides of aircraft fuselage below flight deck windows.

The other PAF Dassault Falcon 20F (serial# J-468) has name "Lodhi" painted below flight deck windows on both sides of fuselage in memory of Flight Lieutenant Saifullah Lodhi who also lost his life during 1965 war with Squadron Leader Mohammad Iqbal.


Squadron Leader Mohammad Iqbal, the PAF's leading ECM specialist, was shot down and killed, together with his navigator by Pak Army AA fire in error during a practice radar homing mission in an RB-57B Canberra of No. 24 Squadron prior to a planned bomber strike against the Amritsar early warning and control site - Info & Photo Source: Book titled "Battle for Pakistan - The Air War of 1965" authored by John Fricker

During the 1965 war, Squadron Leader Mohammad Iqbal with Flight Lieutenant Saifullah Lodhi as his navigator were flying one of PAF's No. 24 Squadron three RB-57Bs specially equipped for ELINT/ECM missions on a practice mission when their RB-57B was accidently shot-down by Pakistan Army Anti-Aircraft fire. Unfortunately both officers lost their lives in this tragic incident and it was a big loss for the air force.

Here's photo of the other PAF Dassault Falcon 20F (serial# J-468) with name "Lodhi" painted below flight deck windows on both sides

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## Daikhlotv

Love Pakistan Army Proud to be Muslim <3


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## syed_yusuf

i thought PAF had 3 ELINT DA-20 falcons


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## Thorough Pro

That is one nice (never seen before by me) pic



imiakhtar said:


> Manticore, I suggest you remove the last pic as it has been pinched from airliners.net and the pic has not been credited to the photographer (asuspine).
> 
> The original can be viewed here:
> 
> Photos: Shaanxi ZDK-03 (Y-8) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net


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## fatman17

These falcons need to be replaced soon. They have gone through at least two overhauls.


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## parkour guy

can our f 17block2 be compared to us F22 raptor


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## fatman17

parkour guy said:


> can our f 17block2 be compared to us F22 raptor



Not even close

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## sathya

parkour guy said:


> can our f 17block2 be compared to us F22 raptor





you should have asked jf 17 block 2 is comparable to which block of F16, A or C or E 
i guess somewhere btw A and C


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## SipahSalar

Can someone compare the Saab 2000 with the recent AWACS acquired from China?


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## MastanKhan

parkour guy said:


> can our f 17block2 be compared to us F22 raptor




Hi,

How old are you my boy?

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## Mughal-Prince

parkour guy said:


> can our f 17block2 be compared to us F22 raptor



Seems U r a newbie on the block and a young chap or if not very young then still un informed so the best thing you can do is go through this forum back and forth and read about aircrafts or any thing you like enlighten yourself . If their is any thing you won't understand don't hesitate to put a question. People are very informative and helpful here .

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## parkour guy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> How old are you my boy?


But for what.


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## parkour guy

Mughal-Prince said:


> Seems U r a newbie on the block and a young chap or if not very young then still un informed so the best thing you can do is go through this forum back and forth and read about aircrafts or any thing you like enlighten yourself . If their is any thing you won't understand don't hesitate to put a question. People are very informative and helpful here .


That was helpful to some extent


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## parkour guy

sathya said:


> you should have asked jf 17 block 2 is comparable to which block of F16, A or C or E
> i guess somewhere btw A and C


Somewhere between A and C .then why is it namedF17.i beleive evey jf has its own specifications .


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## Humble Analyst

Would it be possible if we know positively that only 1 Erieye was lost in Kamra attack? What type of planes were damaged in Karachi Airbase attacks? Were these losses replaced or alternatives being sought? Why we are reactive and not proactive?


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## MastanKhan

parkour guy said:


> But for what.



To understand your level of ignorance and then answer accordingly.

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## parkour guy

MastanKhan said:


> To understand your level of ignorance and then answer accordingly.


Well i am ignorant...
Is asking something ignorance or behaving oversmart...
Take your way ...i did'nt asked anything at least from you...


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## fatman17

DA20 Falcon "blinders "


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## melb4aust

parkour guy said:


> Well i am ignorant...
> Is asking something ignorance or behaving oversmart...
> Take your way ...i did'nt asked anything at least from you...


But your question was so immature that even outsiders had to laugh. Some times its better to research your own before filing such questions.
By the way its an open forum, and you didn't direct your question to any particular person here. So think before you say anything stupid.


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## fatman17

KE 03 on finals


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## fatman17

ZDK03 prototype

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## parkour guy

melb4aust said:


> But your question was so immature that even outsiders had to laugh. Some times its better to research your own before filing such questions.
> By the way its an open forum, and you didn't direct your question to any particular person here. So think before you say anything stupid.


Oh...here comes mr mature.
I was just testing your behaviour...what if i say raptor and thunder have something in common.
Amraams..


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## melb4aust

parkour guy said:


> Oh...here comes mr mature.
> I was just testing your behaviour...what if i say raptor and thunder have something in common.
> Amraams..


You are still insanely wrong ... kid. Told you to do some research before. Who told you that Amraams are being integrated with Thunder?


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## MastanKhan

parkour guy said:


> Well i am ignorant...
> Is asking something ignorance or behaving oversmart...
> Take your way ...i did'nt asked anything at least from you...



Sir,

For a 23 years old you need to act like and adult-----when you are in an adult forum----act like one.

You must have a masters degree at your age by now---but your question are like that of a Primary pass.


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## parkour guy

melb4aust said:


> You are still insanely wrong ... kid. Told you to do some research before. Who told you that Amraams are being integrated with Thunder?


I don"t need upgradation...you should check again.
I am sure AMRAAMS are integrated.


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## parkour guy

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> For a 23 years old you need to act like and adult-----when you are in an adult forum----act like one.
> 
> You must have a masters degree at your age by now---but your question are like that of a Primary pass.


Dear!
Why do you respond eloquently about every question.no one can have complete knowledge in this universe.
Why are you acting too much wise.you must be wise and i know you have knowledge about some aircafts.but what would you do with that knowledge that you cannot use in an organised manner.that don't teaches how to share ...
Sorry but i must say that you are suffsring from inferiority complex.
So take a deep breath and ponder over your behaviour and try to remain normal.
Thanks by the way...


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## Imran Khan

new info is ZDK-03 hangers are at PAF base masroor karachi but its parked on PAF base Faisal tarmac


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## Bossman

parkour guy said:


> Dear!
> Why do you respond eloquently about every question.no one can have complete knowledge in this universe.
> Why are you acting too much wise.you must be wise and i know you have knowledge about some aircafts.but what would you do with that knowledge that you cannot use in an organised manner.that don't teaches how to share ...
> Sorry but i must say that you are suffsring from inferiority complex.
> So take a deep breath and ponder over your behaviour and try to remain normal.
> Thanks by the way...




You should ask Mastan about his qualification to be an expert on military aviation matters


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## parkour guy

Bossman said:


> You should ask Mastan about his qualification to be an expert on military aviation matters


I don't want to be personel with any one even Mastan....
I guess this as is his problem..


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## MastanKhan

parkour guy said:


> Dear!
> Why do you respond eloquently about every question.no one can have complete knowledge in this universe.
> Why are you acting too much wise.you must be wise and i know you have knowledge about some aircafts.but what would you do with that knowledge that you cannot use in an organised manner.that don't teaches how to share ...
> Sorry but i must say that you are suffsring from inferiority complex.
> So take a deep breath and ponder over your behaviour and try to remain normal.
> Thanks by the way...




Sir,

You need to raise the minimal standard of your knowledge---instead of arguing with me or other poster---if you could put the effort and go to google search and type in the question-----there is a lots of information available for you to learn.

Even thought no question asked is stupid----there are certain questions that go way beyond that point like comparison of an F22 to JF 17----.

The 1000's of pages of information on this board is due to sharing.


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## melb4aust

parkour guy said:


> I don"t need upgradation...you should check again.
> I am sure AMRAAMS are integrated.


Suit yourself chap.
By the way a solute to your surety...


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## Ray_of_Hope

parkour guy said:


> I don"t need upgradation...you should check again.
> I am sure AMRAAMS are integrated.


AMRAAMS were bought for F16`s not JF17`s

P.S. Please improve your knowledge before posting


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## parkour guy

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> You need to raise the minimal standard of your knowledge---instead of arguing with me or other poster---if you could put the effort and go to google search and type in the question-----there is a lots of information available for you to learn.
> 
> Even thought no question asked is stupid----there are certain questions that go way beyond that point like comparison of an F22 to JF 17----.
> 
> The 1000's of pages of information on this board is due to sharing.


I think it's more than enough.and the time you spend cticizing if you would have told me in begining about this i must have been highly obliged....but i thought i needed an expert advice..


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## Signalian

Havent seen any mention of falcon-20 DA-20 of "Blinders" No. 24 Sqn used for ESM/ECM.

Since JF-17 is being procured in many numbers , newer blocks are coming up and newer weapons are being integrated on it, PAF should make an electronic version of JF-17 just like EA-18 of F-18 E/F

The two wing tips missile launcher rail for PL-9 can be replaced with detection pods.

Four under wing mounted hard points can carry: 
1 X High Band Jamming Pod,
1 X Low Band Jamming Pod 
2 X AR Missiles (MAR-1) OR 2 X Fuel tanks

1 center line fuselage hardpoint, for FLIR Pod. .

This JF-17 should have an AESA radar(probably Block-3) and also a communications receiver and jamming system that will provide suppression and electronic attack against airborne communication threats.

In peace time, it can carry out sorties for targeting tracks for hostile radio-frequency sources in real time for the ops in WOT.
In war, It can accompany strike package of F-16's or JF-17's into enemy territory to increase the chances of mission success and survival rate of strike aircrafts.

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## Aamir Hussain

Three are housed at Masroor (Three hangars and ancillary facilities) . I see the fourth one flying from SF on and off during my commute to work. 

Don't know why the fourth one is at SF. Can anyone shed some light on this?

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## ConcealCarry

It's a general forum and anyone can express his opinions and views on anything without being expert in that field, the field you are expert in is practiced from 9 to 5. What is your qualification in defence matters?



Bossman said:


> You should ask Mastan about his qualification to be an expert on military aviation matters

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## Bossman

ConcealCarry said:


> It's a general forum and anyone can express his opinions and views on anything without being expert in that field, the field you are expert in is practiced from 9 to 5. What is your qualification in defence matters?



If you are addressing the the questions to me, go first read my posts. I never pretend to be some sort of an expert on defense matter or post long winded article on topics I have little expertise in, like some others. I never use this forum to do a one up on other members. I do respond to self pertinacious and condescending posts and sometime to post which are utterly stupid. If you have a problem with that let me know.


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## ConcealCarry

(in red) exactly, then why would you challenge someone else and raise questions about their "Expertise"
(in blue) if you do that, why do you think others shouldn't?

So in reality you are doing exactly, what you are criticizing others for!



Bossman said:


> If you are addressing the the questions to me, go first read my posts. I never pretend to be some sort of an expert on defense matter or post long winded article on topics *I have little expertise* in, like some others. I never use this forum to do a one up on other members. *I do respond to self pertinacious and condescending posts and sometime to post which are utterly stupid*. If you have a problem with that let me know.

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## hassan1



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## Bilal Khan 777

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 301144



The aircraft is currently abroad for periodical check.


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## khanasifm

So 24 sqn has now 3 aircraft ? lodhi, Iqbal and Mir


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## Dazzler

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> The aircraft is currently abroad for periodical check.



Any upgrades planned or just maintenance?


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## Bilal Khan 777

Dazzler said:


> Any upgrades planned or just maintenance?



Periodic maintenance.



khanasifm said:


> So 24 sqn has now 3 aircraft ? lodhi, Iqbal and Mir



The third aircraft, which used to be in civil livery, is also based in Sargodha now.

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## khanasifm

So Mir aircraft was with 12 sqn and transfered to 24 sqn is it now upgraded for new role?


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## Signalian

SEAD/DEAD ops require aircrafts with EW capabilities and PAF has just 3 of these. PAF should look more into this corner especially when S-400 is about to be encountered.

A fighter jet with EW capabilities is required to lead the attack, something on lines of EA-18G, EF-111 Raven, SU-24 MP etc. 
PLAAF has Y-8G as EW/ELINT aircraft which isnt a fighter plane but a converted transport plane. Its ECM suite can jam enemy radars from a long distance. Its said that J-16D is an EW aircraft but not much is known about it.

http://www.janes.com/article/56855/possible-j-16-ew-variant-makes-its-first-flight

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## khanasifm

These aircraft are more coverage of area jamming rather than tactical jammers pod on fighters


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## Signalian

J-16 EW has wingtip pods resembling the AN/ALQ-218, up to ten fuselage and wing hardpoints, and no IRST or 30 mm cannon. It reportedly made its first flight in December 2015


J-16 EW version (above)
Comparison
J-16 Attack version (Below)

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## MastanKhan

Sarge said:


> SEAD/DEAD ops require aircrafts with EW capabilities and PAF has just 3 of these. PAF should look more into this corner especially when S-400 is about to be encountered.
> 
> A fighter jet with EW capabilities is required to lead the attack, something on lines of EA-18G, EF-111 Raven, SU-24 MP etc.
> PLAAF has Y-8G as EW/ELINT aircraft which isnt a fighter plane but a converted transport plane. Its ECM suite can jam enemy radars from a long distance. Its said that J-16D is an EW aircraft but not much is known about it.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/56855/possible-j-16-ew-variant-makes-its-first-flight



Hi,

Thank you for a wonderful informative post---and the less expensive version of this aircraft is in the form of a JH7B.

Paf should have had at least 1/2 a sqdrn to 2/3rd of a sqdrn strength of these or similar aircraft. 

You know what---every one wants to talk about the fancy 9 G aircraft all the time that can turn on a dime---but no one understands that there is more to air warfare than 9 G turns---.

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## khanasifm

Per paf history book 12 squardon French da-20 was transferred to 24 squardon and upgraded indigenous ly to elwctronic w are fare version so now there are 3 ew aircraft with 24 sqn


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## Signalian

UAV armed with jamming pods is another option.

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## Haris Ali2140

Okay PAF is well equipped in terms of AWACS. Some might even say over equipped. But what about Jammers,SIGNIT/ELINT and ISR platforms. We have only two DA-20s. Out of three Beachkings 350 one recently crashed. Don't you think we are lacking in this area???
@Dazzler @Quwa @Signalian @Tomahawk @Rafi

Please do comment!!!

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## Falcon26

PAF should seriously consider and if possible manufacture the Turkish Hava SOJ EW plane to compliment the DA-20s

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/HAVASOJ_StandOff_Jammer_Aircraft_4832.pdf

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## Signalian

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Okay PAF is well equipped in terms of AWACS. Some might even say over equipped. But what about Jammers,SIGNIT/ELINT and ISR platforms. We have only two DA-20s. Out of three Beachkings 350 one recently crashed. Don't you think we are lacking in this area???
> @Dazzler @Quwa @Signalian @Tomahawk @Rafi
> 
> Please do comment!!!


F-16 has jamming capability.


----------



## Haris Ali2140

Signalian said:


> F-16 has jamming capability.


But won't be a dedicated Jammer be preferred???


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## Signalian

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But won't be a dedicated Jammer be preferred???


Obviously- but Pakistan Armed forces usually mix and match. F-16 is MR after all.

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## Haris Ali2140

Signalian said:


> Obviously- but Pakistan Armed forces usually mix and match. F-16 is MR after all.


Do you PAF should go with the Turkish SOJ???And what about SIGNIT/ELINT and ISR???



Falcon26 said:


> PAF should seriously consider and if possible manufacture the Turkish Hava SOJ EW plane to compliment the DA-20s
> 
> https://www.aselsan.com.tr/HAVASOJ_StandOff_Jammer_Aircraft_4832.pdf


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> PAF should seriously consider and if possible manufacture the Turkish Hava SOJ EW plane to compliment the DA-20s
> 
> https://www.aselsan.com.tr/HAVASOJ_StandOff_Jammer_Aircraft_4832.pdf


The SOJ is basically taking a Bombardier Global 6000 and then re-fitting it with EW/ECM equipment. The benefit of the HAVASOJ is that Aselsan has already done the studies and integration work, so it's ready to go. 

As I had said a bunch of times, if we're not going to get new off-the-shelf fighters before Azm, then let's take a serious look at adding the Erieye ER, new stand-off jammers, and a tanker/transport (like KC-390) all to support the JF-17s.

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## Signalian

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Do you PAF should go with the Turkish SOJ???And what about SIGNIT/ELINT and ISR???


Post 22
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/creating-an-ea-16-b-d.616246/page-2

These ECM/EW pods are in use of PAF F-16s

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## Haris Ali2140

Signalian said:


> Post 22
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/creating-an-ea-16-b-d.616246/page-2
> 
> These ECM/EW pods are in use of PAF F-16s


But what about Thunders???


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## Tipu7

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But what about Thunders???


Thunders carry EW pods of their own. In certain areas, they are even better than those of F16.


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## khanasifm

Paf converted falcon-20 which was used as transport in 12 sqn to ew and was assigned to ew sqn per of book 2014 

J753 Mir
Other are Iqbal and lodhi 


















Some other private Companies also use it in ew role providing service to raf and other eu airforces


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## khanasifm



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## Falcon26

khanasifm said:


> Paf converse falcon-20 which was used as transport in 12 sqn to ew and was assigned to ew sqn per of book 2014
> 
> J753 Mir
> Other are Iqbal and lodhi
> 
> View attachment 593206
> 
> 
> View attachment 593207
> 
> 
> View attachment 593208
> 
> 
> 
> Some other private Companies also use ilt in ew role providing service to raf and other eu airforces
> 
> View attachment 593209



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you do a story on these planes and future needs of PAF, in light of February 27 performances.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can you do a story on these planes and future needs of PAF, in light of February 27 performances.


Yep, it's in my content calendar.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, it's in my content calendar.



you’re the man!


----------



## aliyusuf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> As I had said a bunch of times, if we're not going to get new off-the-shelf fighters before Azm, then let's take a serious look at adding the Erieye ER, new stand-off jammers, and a tanker/transport (like KC-390) all to support the JF-17s.


Aren't the 3 additional Erieyes are actually the ER version? That is what I heard. Can you please check and confirm?


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## Tank131

aliyusuf said:


> Aren't the 3 additional Erieyes are actually the ER version? That is what I heard. Can you please check and confirm?


I have read that the new erieye are not the ER version but the same previous version with that said, given their feb performance, i would not be surprised if there is a move to get the ER version (either as a follow on or as an upgrade).

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## khanasifm

Tank131 said:


> I have read that the new erieye are not the ER version but the same previous version with that said, given their feb performance, i would not be surprised if there is a move to get the ER version (either as a follow on or as an upgrade).



Per AFM article on erieye covering all version till Greek buy the actual performance in test was way beyond the instrumented and the function is controlled via software forexample the ground mapping and surveillance was suppressed based on customer needs bottom line you have to pay additional $$ 

It’s open architecture so you can get commercial hardware and modify, anyway I think of there is a justifiable need then paf will go for it in future otherwise good to go 

Paf went with more erieye even though ka-3 were far cheaper so this means erieye out performs ka-3 and paf is happy with it 

6 ac fleet cover north and central pak while south is covered by 4 ka-3 may be add one more if needed in future

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## Tank131

khanasifm said:


> Per AFM article on erieye covering all version till Greek buy the actual performance in test was way beyond the instrumented and the function is controlled via software forexample the ground mapping and surveillance was suppressed based on customer needs bottom line you have to pay additional $$
> 
> It’s open architecture so you can get commercial hardware and modify, anyway I think of there is a justifiable need then paf will go for it in future otherwise good to go
> 
> Paf went with more erieye even though ka-3 were far cheaper so this means erieye out performs ka-3 and paf is happy with it
> 
> 6 ac fleet cover north and central pak while south is covered by 4 ka-3 may be add one more if needed in future



By KA-3 are you referring to the ZDK-03? Im not familiar with this system.


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## aliyusuf

Tank131 said:


> I have read that the new erieye are not the ER version but the same previous version with that said, given their feb performance, i would not be surprised if there is a move to get the ER version (either as a follow on or as an upgrade).


I have also read the Quwa article on Pakistan acquiring 3 additional Erieyes. But I would like to have a confirmation though.


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## khanasifm

Tank131 said:


> By KA-3 are you referring to the ZDK-03? Im not familiar with this system.



Yeh

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## Haris Ali2140

aliyusuf said:


> I have also read the Quwa article on Pakistan acquiring 3 additional Erieyes. But I would like to have a confirmation though.


Are you talking about the kits that arrived a few months ago.


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## aliyusuf

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Are you talking about the kits that arrived a few months ago.


Well I am not actually sure when they arrived but seems like you are right, that is what I meant.


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## Haris Ali2140

aliyusuf said:


> Well I am not actually sure when they arrived but seems like you are right, that is what I meant.


They arrived about a month or two after Feb. and were mentioned in the annual report of defence acquisitions.


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## Tank131

One thing i remain confused about is the actual number of erieye. Originally 4 were there, then 2 were lost. I was under the impression both were repaired. Was it only 1 repaired? Can someone shed light on this? 

Interesting to also think that PAF repaired at peast one of the systems and was given the certification to do tye overhaul by Ericsson after they saw the work. I wonder that tye AESA that people are saying Pakistan is supposedly developing, could it be based on the knowledge gained from the time spend reparing the erieye?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> One thing i remain confused about is the actual number of erieye. Originally 4 were there, then 2 were lost. I was under the impression both were repaired. Was it only 1 repaired? Can someone shed light on this?
> 
> Interesting to also think that PAF repaired at peast one of the systems and was given the certification to do tye overhaul by Ericsson after they saw the work. I wonder that tye AESA that people are saying Pakistan is supposedly developing, could it be based on the knowledge gained from the time spend reparing the erieye?


We originally had 4.

We then had 1 plus 3 damaged.

We recovered 2.

We bought 3 more.

Total: 6 (as originally planned pre-earthquake).



Tank131 said:


> One thing i remain confused about is the actual number of erieye. Originally 4 were there, then 2 were lost. I was under the impression both were repaired. Was it only 1 repaired? Can someone shed light on this?
> 
> Interesting to also think that PAF repaired at peast one of the systems and was given the certification to do tye overhaul by Ericsson after they saw the work. I wonder that tye AESA that people are saying Pakistan is supposedly developing, could it be based on the knowledge gained from the time spend reparing the erieye?


It wouldn't be possible. AESA radar tech boils down to the semiconductors in use, and we have no such industry or base for such work at this time. If anything, our work on the Erieye repair project was a plus from an aircraft repair and integration standpoint. So, hypothetically, if PAC starts manufacturing Saab 2000s under license, it would know how to make special mission aircraft using that platform.

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We originally had 4.
> 
> We then had 1 plus 3 damaged.
> 
> We recovered 2.
> 
> We bought 3 more.
> 
> Total: 6 (as originally planned pre-earthquake).
> 
> 
> It wouldn't be possible. AESA radar tech boils down to the semiconductors in use, and we have no such industry or base for such work at this time. If anything, our work on the Erieye repair project was a plus from an aircraft repair and integration standpoint. So, hypothetically, if PAC starts manufacturing Saab 2000s under license, it would know how to make special mission aircraft using that platform.


So what is this talk i have heard from some members here that Pakistan is working on an AESA radar if it doesn't even have the basic industry to support such a project?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> So what is this talk i have heard from some members here that Pakistan is working on an AESA radar if it doesn't even have the basic industry to support such a project?


It's one of those situations where we can't speak in generalities.

So, "developing an AESA radar" can mean multiple things, each different based on the reality of the one designing said system.

In Pakistan's case, we're not developing an AESA radar from scratch wherein we are using our own semiconductors to build TRMs (as we literally don't have an industry to actually make these things, at any level). 

Rather, Pakistan is designing an AESA radar model with a combination of off-the-shelf technology (esp. TRMs) and local technologies where doable.

So, what's the benefit? Well, it's one way of circumventing the constraint of having the Chinese and Europeans say, "no, we don't want to share our source codes because we don't trust the Chinese/Europeans." This way, it's a Pakistani radar platform, we'll own the source codes and we'll manage integration and testing. 

This doesn't have anything to do with the Erieye's AESA radar because (1) the primary focus of the work PAC did was on restoring the airframe and (2) integrating the radar and subsystems to the aircraft. It wasn't related to radar technology, and in any case, it wouldn't have learned much because, as noted above, we don't have an industry to develop and manufacture TRMs at this time.

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## Caprxl

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So, what's the benefit? Well, it's one way of circumventing the constraint of having the Chinese and Europeans say, "no, we don't want to share our source codes because we don't trust the Chinese/Europeans." This way, it's a Pakistani radar platform, _*we'll own the source codes and we'll manage integration and testing. *_



& why would we be needing to do that apart from advancing in technology??
I think there is something cooking in the heads of PAF especially PAC,

1) a platform which could use both Chinese & European weapons at the same time?

2) who said that such a platform could only be used by PAF, a perfect chance to export as well according to the customer need, whatever they prefer / able to integrate, European or chinses weapons of their choice or both.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Caprxl said:


> & why would we be needing to do that apart from advancing in technology??
> I think there is something cooking in the heads of PAF especially PAC,
> 
> 1) a platform which could use both Chinese & European weapons at the same time?
> 
> 2) who said that such a platform could only be used by PAF, a perfect chance to export as well according to the customer need, whatever they prefer / able to integrate, European or chinses weapons of their choice or both.


Why? Control.

In Pakistan, if you want to make any argument for indigenization, it must center on the idea of control. 

Folks tried for decades to talk about industrial development, the economy, etc, and all that flew over the heads of our leaders in the military and government alike.

But control is a whole other issue.

This idea that now China can openly say, "oh we don't feel comfortable sharing our source codes" is total BS for the PAF. For now, it's directed against Western subsystems, but later, it could be against Pakistani systems too. 

With a Pakistani AESA radar model in the works, the Chinese and Europeans can say "no" to integrating their stuff onto it. However, if they deny us a certain kind of missile, and then we develop said missile, our own radar would allow us to operationalize our capability. 

As we start embarking on supersonic or ramjet-based weapons, this control is going to be critical, especially when long-range/stand-off-range systems are involved (which can have a strategic impact). 

Moreover, I don't think we'll export our radar models, not until we master semiconductor technology some many decades into the future. We wouldn't want anyone else to know what we're carrying in our own jets, and though we could make an export variant, there's a risk (e.g., that one common factor) there too.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Why? Control.
> 
> In Pakistan, if you want to make any argument for indigenization, it must center on the idea of control.
> 
> Folks tried for decades to talk about industrial development, the economy, etc, and all that flew over the heads of our leaders in the military and government alike.
> 
> But control is a whole other issue.
> 
> This idea that now China can openly say, "oh we don't feel comfortable sharing our source codes" is total BS for the PAF. For now, it's directed against Western subsystems, but later, it could be against Pakistani systems too.
> 
> With a Pakistani AESA radar model in the works, the Chinese and Europeans can say "no" to integrating their stuff onto it. However, if they deny us a certain kind of missile, and then we develop said missile, our own radar would allow us to operationalize our capability.
> 
> As we start embarking on supersonic or ramjet-based weapons, this control is going to be critical, especially when long-range/stand-off-range systems are involved (which can have a strategic impact).
> 
> Moreover, I don't think we'll export our radar models, not until we master semiconductor technology some many decades into the future. We wouldn't want anyone else to know what we're carrying in our own jets, and though we could make an export variant, there's a risk (e.g., that one common factor) there too.



Do you think Malaysia could help with semiconductor technology seeing that its one of the most prolific manufacturers of semiconductors


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> Do you think Malaysia could help with semiconductor technology seeing that its one of the most prolific manufacturers of semiconductors


The issue with critical technology like this is that the US will step in and stop it. Malaysia and Indonesia have so much more to lose by breaking the rules since they heavily rely on FDI and exports. 

In an ironic way, Pakistan is shielded (at the cost of losing out on the trade balancing and fortune) in this regard, so it can skirt the rules in some areas (e.g., our nuclear program). One option is to pick up very old semiconductor fab plants, hire experts from around the world who know the new tech, and try advancing from there.

Even that effort might get railroaded by the US, if not through blocking sales, then perhaps by manipulating our own internal processes to kill the project at infancy. Anecdotally, I heard someone talk about a narrative where Pakistan was in the process of getting a US electronics manufacturing deal (involving fab tech), but then some maulvis randomly started protesting for some reason, and then the US investor backed out...???

Now, if we look at what our esteemed lawyers are up to or the lousy, trash job the PML-N did at negotiating CPEC, you can see how things can go sideways in our country. 

If you master semiconductors, then forget radars, you could open the doors to a lot of interesting -- and wildly lucrative -- areas. It's a game changer. So, if you somehow get past the micro-extinction events that occur in Pakistan every 6 months and get to the goal, it's a massive payoff.

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## Caprxl

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This idea that now China can openly say, "oh we don't feel comfortable sharing our source codes" is total BS for the PAF.



Totally agree, never had this thought in mind. May be somehow it was implied through my post but never meant that.

it's always better to start off at some point and be independent, 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> *As we start embarking on supersonic or ramjet-based weapons, this control is going to be critical, especially when long-range/stand-off-range *systems are involved (which can have a strategic impact).



Amen to the bold brother, and therefore the reason to develope our own radar model.

Lastly, about export, I agree to certain extent with your point but if not in near to mid term, I still see light at some point in future of export variants being offered. Never mind , endless possibilities, need of the hour is to take these first steps and in the correct direction.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The issue with critical technology like this is that the US will step in and stop it. Malaysia and Indonesia have so much more to lose by breaking the rules since they heavily rely on FDI and exports.
> 
> In an ironic way, Pakistan is shielded (at the cost of losing out on the trade balancing and fortune) in this regard, so it can skirt the rules in some areas (e.g., our nuclear program). One option is to pick up very old semiconductor fab plants, hire experts from around the world who know the new tech, and try advancing from there.
> 
> Even that effort might get railroaded by the US, if not through blocking sales, then perhaps by manipulating our own internal processes to kill the project at infancy. Anecdotally, I heard someone talk about a narrative where Pakistan was in the process of getting a US electronics manufacturing deal (involving fab tech), but then some maulvis randomly started protesting for some reason, and then the US investor backed out...???
> 
> Now, if we look at what our esteemed lawyers are up to or the lousy, trash job the PML-N did at negotiating CPEC, you can see how things can go sideways in our country.
> 
> If you master semiconductors, then forget radars, you could open the doors to a lot of interesting -- and wildly lucrative -- areas. It's a game changer. So, if you somehow get past the micro-extinction events that occur in Pakistan every 6 months and get to the goal, it's a massive payoff.



very insightful post. So the export of semiconductors are controlled? Malaysia doesn’t own the rights to their technology?

sorry for the elementary questions

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## StructE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The issue with critical technology like this is that the US will step in and stop it. Malaysia and Indonesia have so much more to lose by breaking the rules since they heavily rely on FDI and exports.
> 
> In an ironic way, Pakistan is shielded (at the cost of losing out on the trade balancing and fortune) in this regard, so it can skirt the rules in some areas (e.g., our nuclear program). One option is to pick up very old semiconductor fab plants, hire experts from around the world who know the new tech, and try advancing from there.
> 
> Even that effort might get railroaded by the US, if not through blocking sales, then perhaps by manipulating our own internal processes to kill the project at infancy. Anecdotally, I heard someone talk about a narrative where Pakistan was in the process of getting a US electronics manufacturing deal (involving fab tech), but then some maulvis randomly started protesting for some reason, and then the US investor backed out...???
> 
> Now, if we look at what our esteemed lawyers are up to or the lousy, trash job the PML-N did at negotiating CPEC, you can see how things can go sideways in our country.
> 
> If you master semiconductors, then forget radars, you could open the doors to a lot of interesting -- and wildly lucrative -- areas. It's a game changer. So, if you somehow get past the micro-extinction events that occur in Pakistan every 6 months and get to the goal, it's a massive payoff.



While mastering semiconductor will put any nation on solid feet, silicon technology changes at much faster pace and keeping up with it will be cost prohibitive for Pakistan. In my opinion if Pakistan can start producing lower end mass market devices with imported chips, it will produce skill and capacity which can be scaled under institutions like Kamra and Nescom.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Caprxl said:


> Totally agree, never had this thought in mind. May be somehow it was implied through my post but never meant that.
> 
> it's always better to start off at some point and be independent,
> 
> 
> 
> Amen to the bold brother, and therefore the reason to develope our own radar model.
> 
> Lastly, about export, I agree to certain extent with your point but if not in near to mid term, I still see light at some point in future of export variants being offered. Never mind , endless possibilities, need of the hour is to take these first steps and in the correct direction.


In terms of exports, I think -- and this wasn't stated by our armed forces at any point -- we're just not too thrilled about selling arms overseas. It's a chore, and the margins tend to get thinner as buyers demand concessions such as offsets, ToT, etc. Plus, there are moral concerns along the way too.

It wouldn't surprise me if, in the long-term, the export play is actually in dual-use and major civilian applications. In this case, we could see spin-offs of HIT, PAC and KSEW (hopefully in different cities) manufacture heavy commercial vehicles, airliners, and tankers for commercial use, while the military stuff remains focused on serving local needs.

So, this is one reason why I'd keep an eye on the Sukhoi SuperJet 100 talk. If PIA ends up as the lead overseas user of this aircraft, we could see PAC make a play at significant co-production and final assembly. Remember, the previous Chairman of PAC is heading up PIA.



Falcon26 said:


> very insightful post. So the export of semiconductors are controlled? Malaysia doesn’t own the rights to their technology?
> 
> sorry for the elementary questions


It's controlled either through explicit export permits, or through political pressure.



StructE said:


> While mastering semiconductor will put any nation on solid feet, silicon technology changes at much faster pace and keeping up with it will be cost prohibitive for Pakistan. In my opinion if Pakistan can start producing lower end mass market devices with imported chips, it will produce skill and capacity which can be scaled under institutions like Kamra and Nescom.


Yield and quality control is a huge challenge as well. You either do exceptionally well at it, or you fail so badly that you could end up risking hundreds of millions of dollars on a lemon.

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## Caprxl

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if, in the long-term, the export play is actually in dual-use and major civilian applications. In this case, we could see spin-offs of HIT, PAC and KSEW (hopefully in different cities) *manufacture heavy commercial vehicles, airliners, and tankers for commercial use, while the military stuff remains focused on serving local needs*.



I think we found the common ground, credit is given to you that you just picked the point which I was struggling to reach. Serves us best, the sole purpose for my export reason was when we have the ability why let it go and not make $, it's even better the civilian way, keeps us off the radar as well and also some moral codes you mentioned.

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## Haris Ali2140

Does anyone has any info on this C130 ISR???
@Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian @airomerix

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## airomerix

Haris Ali2140 said:


> View attachment 600115
> 
> 
> Does anyone has any info on this C130 ISR???
> @Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian @airomerix



We do have 'X' number C-130's with ISR mounted on the chin. They have a full glass cockpit (almost similar to later H models). They keep a vigils eye on the eastern and western borders. Once these boys spot something, they direct ground forces to the designated area to take care of it.

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## Haris Ali2140

airomerix said:


> We do have 'X' number C-130's with ISR mounted on the chin. They have a full glass cockpit (almost similar to later H models). They keep a vigils eye on the eastern and western borders. Once these boys spot something, they direct ground forces to the designated area to take care of it.


Any news on ELINT/SIGNET capabilities and assets???


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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> We do have 'X' number C-130's with ISR mounted on the chin. They have a full glass cockpit (almost similar to later H models). They keep a vigils eye on the eastern and western borders. Once these boys spot something, they direct ground forces to the designated area to take care of it.


Like what ZDK 3s and Erieyes do?


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## airomerix

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Any news on ELINT/SIGNET capabilities and assets???



It's classified. We have assets which specialize in this role. Thats all you we need to know. Where they are, how many they are, what can they do is off limits. 




Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Like what ZDK 3s and Erieyes do?



Not really. ZDK and Erieye are airborne early warner platforms. They cant show us militants cutting our fences on western borders. In simpler words, C-130's with ISR probes operate in a similar fashion to an AC-130 Spectre minus the weapons. 

Fun fact: 

During operation Rah-e-Rast, we ALMOST got AC-130 Gunships from US. The deal was done. However, some lobbies in DC werent very happy about it. And they were successful.

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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> During operation Rah-e-Rast, we ALMOST got AC-130 Gunships from US. The deal was done. However, some lobbies in DC werent very happy about it. And they were successful.


Oh. Do we need more C 130s?



airomerix said:


> It's classified. We have assets which specialize in this role. Thats all you we need to know. Where they are, how many they are, what can they do is off limits.


Do DA 20 fall in this category?


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## Zephyrus

Just one of the ISR herks 
They usually fly out of nur khan





There's these other kind of herkies that standout as well, check out the antennae on the ventral side.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

airomerix said:


> It's classified. We have assets which specialize in this role. Thats all you we need to know. Where they are, how many they are, what can they do is off limits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. ZDK and Erieye are airborne early warner platforms. They cant show us militants cutting our fences on western borders. In simpler words, C-130's with ISR probes operate in a similar fashion to an AC-130 Spectre minus the weapons.
> 
> Fun fact:
> 
> During operation Rah-e-Rast, we ALMOST got AC-130 Gunships from US. The deal was done. However, some lobbies in DC werent very happy about it. And they were successful.


Is there a reason why the PAF (or PA) didn't push for re-purposing the CN235 or C295 as a COIN/CT support asset? So, for example, there are packages on the market that could fit the CN235/C295 with an EO/IR turret as well as 27 mm cannon and ATGMs, rockets and PGBs. The only real issue (to not getting those) I can think of is that they didn not offer enough firepower...??

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## Zephyrus

I have seen a saab 2000 with an E/O mission package as well


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## AMG_12

Zephyrus said:


> I have seen a saab 2000 with an E/O mission package as well


You mean PAF's SAAB 2000? Any pictures?


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## Zephyrus

AMG_12 said:


> You mean PAF's SAAB 2000? Any pictures?


Yes here you go

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## Pakistani Fighter

Zephyrus said:


> View attachment 604284
> 
> Yes here you go


Erieye or a normal SAAB 2000?


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## Zephyrus

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Erieye or a normal SAAB 2000?


Normal Saab 2000


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## khanasifm

Da-20!airframe needs replacement in short term per Alan book on paf 

The question is will Saab2000 being turbo prop with high speed of ~700 enough and can replace as platform prop vs jet ??

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## airomerix

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Is there a reason why the PAF (or PA) didn't push for re-purposing the CN235 or C295 as a COIN/CT support asset? So, for example, there are packages on the market that could fit the CN235/C295 with an EO/IR turret as well as 27 mm cannon and ATGMs, rockets and PGBs. The only real issue (to not getting those) I can think of is that they didn not offer enough firepower...??



It was proposed in several meetings but acquiring the equipment was the first challenge followed by putting an aircraft out of circulation. We already have a low number of CN-235s. One has to be on standby all the time for VIP transport, the other two are engaged in moving troops. Leaving one which is sometimes on AHQ duties.

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## Zephyrus

Which book is that?


khanasifm said:


> Da-20!airframe needs replacement in short term per Alan book on paf
> 
> The question is will Saab2000 being turbo prop with high speed of ~700 enough and can replace as platform prop vs jet ??


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## Gorgin Khan

khanasifm said:


> Da-20!airframe needs replacement in short term per Alan book on paf
> 
> The question is will Saab2000 being turbo prop with high speed of ~700 enough and can replace as platform prop vs jet ??



I heard somewhere those DAs got refurbished 4-5 years back i guess.

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## khanasifm

https://www.janes.com/article/94539...in-the-pipeline-senior-plaaf-officer-confirms


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## HRK

Gorgin Khan said:


> I heard somewhere those DAs got refurbished 4-5 years back i guess.


DA-20 last at the background of line at right side in Mirage Rebuilding Factory [Link, Date: Apr 29, 2018]

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## Bossman

HRK said:


> DA-20 last at the background of line at right side in Mirage Rebuilding Factory [Link, Date: Apr 29, 2018]
> View attachment 614838


It was overhauled in France.

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## Ultima Thule

Bossman said:


> It was overhauled in France.


look at the left in the picture, does these guys look to you as french man its PAC-Pics


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## HRK

seven0seven said:


> look at the left in the picture, does these guys look to you as french man its PAC-Pics


He is not wrong previously it was overhauled in France, but this pic which is showing DA-20 in Mirage Rebuild Factory on _29th April, 2018_ *after completion of 30 years of service* in PAF [inducted in 1987] indicates the *possibility of in house overhaul* of this aircraft type, we can see some sort of work is under progress on its fuselage





@Bossman

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## aliyusuf

HRK said:


> He is not wrong previously it was overhauled in France, but this pic which is showing DA-20 in Mirage Rebuild Factory on _29th April, 2018_ *after completion of 30 years of service* in PAF [inducted in 1987] indicates the *possibility of in house overhaul* of this aircraft type, we can see some sort of work is under progress on its fuselage
> View attachment 614980
> 
> 
> @Bossman


Does it mean it is possible that some new goodies may have been added/upgraded to these birds in-house?


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## HRK

aliyusuf said:


> Does it mean it is possible that some new goodies may have been added/upgraded to these birds in-house?


logic dictates it should be but in reality I have no idea ....

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## nomi007

HRK said:


> He is not wrong previously it was overhauled in France, but this pic which is showing DA-20 in Mirage Rebuild Factory on _29th April, 2018_ *after completion of 30 years of service* in PAF [inducted in 1987] indicates the *possibility of in house overhaul* of this aircraft type, we can see some sort of work is under progress on its fuselage
> View attachment 614980
> 
> 
> @Bossman


DA-20 performed really well during 27 feb raid. I think only three of such aircrafts are not enough for PAF. we have to consider the Turkish EW project for future need.

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## HRK

nomi007 said:


> we have to consider the Turkish EW project for future need.


$$$ .....???


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## nomi007

HRK said:


> $$$ .....???


good question


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## MIRauf

if it ( EW, Special Mission ) can provide protection to a squadron worth of aircraft ( 16 * $25 Million, or 16 * $65 Million, ) then its money well spent. Unless off course if PAF thinks that it has adequate number of EW / suppressor / blinders support aircraft, or the self protection EW pods can adequately protect the package.

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## Keysersoze

MIRauf said:


> if it ( EW, Special Mission ) can provide protection to a squadron worth of aircraft ( 16 * $25 Million, or 16 * $65 Million, ) then its money well spent. Unless off course if PAF thinks that it has adequate number of EW / suppressor / blinders support aircraft, or the self protection EW pods can adequately protect the package.


You are forgetting that the erieye (and possibly the zdk 3)has ew functions. Combine that with the EW pods and you have fairly potent EW contingent. The only thing missing would be a good SEAD option.

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## HRK

Keysersoze said:


> You are forgetting that the erieye (and possibly the zdk 3)has ew functions. Combine that with the EW pods and you have fairly potent EW contingent. The only thing missing would be a good SEAD option.


If I am not wrong Erieye only have SIGINT and ELINT capabilities not the Electronic attack or jamming capabilities

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## Incog_nito

Why not PAC partner with EU or American Aircraft Manufacturers in order to develop Aircraft that can be used in such roles?

I guess Saab, will be one of the best options. As they can revive their programs or bring up something new:

Saab Safari ( can be used for a MALE UCAV).
Saab-340
Saab-2000
I didn't mean making exactly the same aircraft but something in similar class but with modern technology.

PAF already has some Saab-2000 as AEW&Cs and 1 for training & transport.

PAF should buy some more to convert them for ELINT/SGNIT & reconnaissance roles.


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## Keysersoze

HRK said:


> If I am not wrong Erieye only have SIGINT and ELINT capabilities not the Electronic attack or jamming capabilities


This is worth a read...






The NGJ-MB integrates GaN-based AESA antennas. Power is provided by a ram air turbine. Source: Raytheon
Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) technology, typically associated with radar systems, is being explored to aid electronic warfare (EW) equipment.

AESAs use multitudes of transmit/receive (TR) modules on their surface. In the radar domain, each of these modules acts as its own miniature radar generating a radio frequency (RF) signal and waveform, transmitting it and receiving and processing the radar’s echo as it is bounces off an object in the radar’s field-of-view.

AESAs can perform electronic beam-steering, meaning the array can steer the direction of the beam it transmits without the antenna having to physically move, just as a person can see in different directions by moving their eyes but not their head.

“Beam steering allows you to develop a very narrow transmit beam which can be electronically steered,” Dr Nitzan Barkay, Israel Aerospace Industries’ (IAI) ELTA Systems’ intelligence, EW, and communications division’s chief technology officer, said during the Electronic Warfare Europe conference in Stockholm in May. AESA also enables individual TR modules to perform different tasks simultaneously. In the radar domain, this can translate into simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-ground surveillance. In the EW domain, this could provide the ability to “jam several targets of different frequencies simultaneously”, Barkay said.

For example, a fighter aircraft equipped with an AESA EW system could, in theory, simultaneously jam a hostile fighter aircraft’s X-band fire control radar, which tend to transmit in wavebands of 8.5 GHz to 10.68 GHz, an incoming air-to-air missile’s Ka-band (33.4 GHz to 36 GHz) radar seeker, and a ground-based air surveillance radar’s C-band (5.25 GHz to 5.925 GHz) transmissions.

The ability to generate complex jamming waveforms using the AESA’s TR modules could also help EW attacks obviate countermeasures. Current and future radar are likely to use ever more sophisticated electronic counter-countermeasure (ECCM) techniques, and radar can increasingly recognise that they are being jammed and discount or filter out this jamming.

https://www.janes.com/article/89293/aesa-technology-could-migrate-to-electronic-warfare-equipment

_Block 2 version of US Navy fighter set to become first to use active array for electronic attack duties_

Boeing's F/A-18E/F Block 2 Super Hornet is set to become the first fighter to use its active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for electronic attack, with a planned software upgrade to allow its array of transmit/receive (T/R) modules to be used as a powerful directional jammer.

Under a "sensor integration" plan being drawn up, the Raytheon APG-79 AESA will be linked to the Raytheon ALR-67 radar warning receiver (RWR) via the fighter's fibre-optic network switch. The radar's ground mapping capability will then be used to pinpoint emitters detected by the RWR.

"This will allow us to begin single-ship geolocation of emitters," says Capt BD Gaddis, US Navy F/A-18 programme manager. The F/A-18E/F's BAE Systems ALQ-214 electronic countermeasures suite will also be integrated so the aircraft can jam emitters. "We will put the -214 jamming signal through the AESA T/R modules to put power on to the emitter," he says.

Although the capability has been widely discussed, it appears the Block 2 Super Hornet will be the first aircraft able to use its AESA for electronic attack. Rival radar manufacturer Northrop Grumman says its APG-77(V)1 and APG-81 AESAs for the Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35, respectively, will have the capability, but it is not in currently funded plans.

Funding will determine when the sensor integration upgrade takes place, with the capability planned for the budget cycle beginning in fiscal year 2010. The USN is now selecting F/A-18E/F upgrades for funding beginning in FY08, Gaddis says, with candidates including an infrared search-and-track sensor; high off-boresight capability for the AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile; datalinks for the AIM-9X air-to-air missile and JSOW stand-off weapon; night vision capability for the JHMCS helmet-mounted display; and an AESA electronic counter-countermeasures upgrade.

To pave the way for sensor integration, Boeing has been funded to upgrade the F/A-18E/F's advanced mission computer (AMC). The new Type 3 AMC will be fielded beginning next year, and the navy plans to upgrade AESA-equipped aircraft, taking the Type 2 AMCs out and retrofitting them to older non-AESA Super Hornets to achieve a single software standard across the fleet.

Under current plans, the USN will end up with 406 AESA-equipped Super Hornets, including EA-18G Growler dedicated electronic-attack variants. This number includes 135 earlier Block 2 aircraft that will be retrofitted with the radar from 2010, Gaddis says. The first AESA-equipped squadron is working up for fleet deployment later this year.

https://www.flightglobal.com/f/a-18e/f-to-use-aesa-as-jammer/68822.article

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## MIRauf

Keysersoze said:


> You are forgetting that the erieye (and possibly the zdk 3)has ew functions. Combine that with the EW pods and you have fairly potent EW contingent. The only thing missing would be a good SEAD option.



If you know for sure that Erieye can perform EW then sure go ahead count them as well, however a dedicated EW is much desirable then the multi-role AWAC / AEW.

Now your attachment talks about GaN based, I am not sure if PAF Erieye are GaN or GaA type, I am leaning towards GaA then GaN based T/Rs, but this assumption is based on my guesswork.

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## Imran Khan




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## ARMalik

Ok look I wanted to post this photo somewhere and I decided to post it here because this is a thing of beauty, like a Black shining rattle snake. I came across it on another forum - *IOMAX Archangel attack plane.*
If Pakistan had it, it would be been such a wonderful site.

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## airomerix

Blinders

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## untitled

airomerix said:


> Blinders
> View attachment 632762



Why is this aircraft parked on grass?


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## airomerix

untitled said:


> Why is this aircraft parked on grass?



It's not. There is a narrow taxiway to the apron there.

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## Readerdefence

airomerix said:


> It's not. There is a narrow taxiway to the apron there.


Hi looks like PAF got to of them if its appropriate to reveal 
Thank you


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## GriffinsRule

Readerdefence said:


> Hi looks like PAF got to of them if its appropriate to reveal
> Thank you


Three of them. Mir, Iqbal and Lodhi.

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## Readerdefence

GriffinsRule said:


> Three of them. Mir, Iqbal and Lodhi.
> 
> View attachment 632809


Hi thanks for your information


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## aliyusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> Three of them. Mir, Iqbal and Lodhi.
> 
> View attachment 632809


Are all three equipped with EW goodies or just two of them like I have heard?


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## Shah_Deu

In my personal opinion, PAF EW strategy should be threefold and prioritized on short, medium and long terms for an optimal utilization of the available monies and without compromising on the operational readiness of our forces.

Short Term Strategy:
Firstly, we need point EW assets (akin to EA-18G Growler) to

create point EW coverage for localized air superiority
provide point cover to our attack formations
A JF-17B optimized for EW role would be the way to go for this path.

Medium Term Strategy:
Secondly, we need dedicated long range standalone EW assets to replace the ageing D-20s. Going this way we could rightly look at Havasoj. 3-4 platforms of this nature would be enough.

Adding to this, in case there is a possibility of the turkish contractors being able to integrate the subsystems of Havasoj on a Saab-2000 or ATR 72 platforms, we would be able to commonize the platforms which we already operate in PAF and PN and save long term support and training costs.

Hence, we would ultimately be having EW assets from two different sources i.e China and Turkey/Italy which would be analogous to our AEW&C route and we can ultimately increase the investment on any one path as per our developing needs and the respective performances of the platforms.

Long Term Strategy/FUTURE:
Additionally, we should be working with our partners to explore the possibility of an EW variant of our local drones (under Project AZM MALE UAV program). Such platforms should be able to communicate with our 5th gen assets under the AZM program.

This way we could look for turkish solutions to be integrated on our MALE UAVs and would be akin to how our navy is proceeding with the up gradation of our Agosta 90B submarines from the Turkish contractors i.e. we provide them our asset/drone and they integrate their systems on our platform.

Last but not the least, developing our local EW solutions either under a separate arm of the Project AZM or as an offshoot of the existing PAF Avionics projects should be our ultimate aim.

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## Akh1112

ARMalik said:


> Ok look I wanted to post this photo somewhere and I decided to post it here because this is a thing of beauty, like a Black shining rattle snake. I came across it on another forum - *IOMAX Archangel attack plane.*
> If Pakistan had it, it would be been such a wonderful site.




Issue with COIN aircraft is that they are sitting ducks for MANPAD's



Shah_Deu said:


> In my personal opinion, PAF EW strategy should be threefold and prioritized on short, medium and long terms for an optimal utilization of the available monies and without compromising on the operational readiness of our forces.
> 
> Short Term Strategy:
> Firstly, we need point EW assets (akin to EA-18G Growler) to
> 
> create point EW coverage for localized air superiority
> provide point cover to our attack formations
> A JF-17B optimized for EW role would be the way to go for this path.
> 
> Medium Term Strategy:
> Secondly, we need dedicated long range standalone EW assets to replace the ageing D-20s. Going this way we could rightly look at Havasoj. 3-4 platforms of this nature would be enough.
> 
> Adding to this, in case there is a possibility of the turkish contractors being able to integrate the subsystems of Havasoj on a Saab-2000 or ATR 72 platforms, we would be able to commonize the platforms which we already operate in PAF and PN and save long term support and training costs.
> 
> Hence, we would ultimately be having EW assets from two different sources i.e China and Turkey/Italy which would be analogous to our AEW&C route and we can ultimately increase the investment on any one path as per our developing needs and the respective performances of the platforms.
> 
> Long Term Strategy/FUTURE:
> Additionally, we should be working with our partners to explore the possibility of an EW variant of our local drones (under Project AZM MALE UAV program). Such platforms should be able to communicate with our 5th gen assets under the AZM program.
> 
> This way we could look for turkish solutions to be integrated on our MALE UAVs and would be akin to how our navy is proceeding with the up gradation of our Agosta 90B submarines from the Turkish contractors i.e. we provide them our asset/drone and they integrate their systems on our platform.
> 
> Last but not the least, developing our local EW solutions either under a separate arm of the Project AZM or as an offshoot of the existing PAF Avionics projects should be our ultimate aim.




To be fair, the D-20's had an extensive overhaul and upgrade not too long ago.

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## The Eagle

Guess what? (seems like screen grab from Sherdil Movie).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Eagle said:


> Guess what? (seems like screen grab from Sherdil Movie).


Flt. Lt. Fatima is wearing a Burraq UAV patch, but in the music video, she's an AEW&C controller. It's possible she is an operator on both, but I guess her actual job might be controlling UAVs -- and that her role in the AEW&C is more of a stand-in for promotional purposes?

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## Imran Khan

india's headache is landing

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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> india's headache is landing


Got French upgrades during Mush era PAF should look for turkish new electronic warfare jet


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## PanzerKiel



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## Keysersoze

airomerix said:


> Blinders
> 
> View attachment 632759
> View attachment 632760
> View attachment 632761
> View attachment 632762
> View attachment 632765


These photos must have been taken before he upgrades. They have no aerials visible..


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistan has taken delivery of two Beechcraft Super King Air 350i aircraft. It is unclear if these aircraft will be used for utility/transport or ELINT/SIGINT duties. One of the aircraft, registration N99KC, was delivered on 17 June.

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## Zephyrus

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Pakistan has taken delivery of two Beechcraft Super King Air 350i aircraft. It is unclear if these aircraft will be used for utility/transport or ELINT/SIGINT duties. One of the aircraft, registration N99KC, was delivered on 17 June.
> View attachment 857861


For training, most probably replacement for the Y12


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## ghazi52

,..,.,









Global 6000 is a high-speed enterprise plane with a range of 6,700 nautical miles at Mach 0.80, a potential altitude of 51,000 feet, and a 14-hour longevity. Lighter aluminum alloys and composite materials make up the quasi monocoque airframe. It has a low wing, tricycle landing gear, and propellers that are mounted in the fuselage.

The design is based on the previous Canadair CL-600 and Bombardier CRJ aircraft. It has the same hull cross-section as these planes, but with a new T-tail and wing. The latter is a supersonic airfoil with wing tips and a 35° side sweep. Disruption is effectively attenuated by this extensible wing. It was initially powered by two FADEC-controlled BMW-Rolls-Royce BR710 turbofans. A 6 Honeywell Primus 2000 XP EFIS suite is installed on the jetway.








Since the successful operation Swift Retort against India, the importance of electronic warfare has grown. India breached Pakistani airspace on the 25th of February 2019 and claimed to have bombed militant targets inside Pakistani territory, which Pakistan categorically denies. According to Pakistan, IAF fighter jets released their drop tanks as soon as PAF fighter jets were dispatched in the air. No one knows who is telling the truth.

After all of this, Pakistan decided to take retaliation for the violation of its airspace. Mirage ROSE, JF-17, F-16, SAAB 2000 AWACS, and Falcon 20 EW jets were employed in Operation Swift Retort. The game changer things in that operation was Falcon 20 EW which blinded the IAF radars and there pilots had no idea what was going around them. Taking advantage of the circumstance, the Pakistan Air Force launched two missiles, one of which shot down an IAF MiG-21 and other Su30mki. Although India denied that any Su 30mki was shot down, But no one can deny that a Mig-21 was shot down.

All of this is due to Falcon 20’s electronic warfare capabilities. They are now being replaced by Global 6000 aircraft by the Pakistan Air Force. These jetliners will be outfitted with high-powered radar jamming technology, bolstering the PAF’s capabilities.

With the induction of Rafale, Tejas, and more Mig-29, the Indian Air Force is rapidly expanding. In addition, India recently received the S-400. For such situations, electronic warfare machines are appropriate. They jammed enemy radars and allowed their pilots to complete their missions, but the S-400 is no laughing matter. To jam it, you’ll need some serious Electronic Warfare skills.


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## White privilege

ghazi52 said:


> ,..,.,
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 868429
> 
> 
> 
> Global 6000 is a high-speed enterprise plane with a range of 6,700 nautical miles at Mach 0.80, a potential altitude of 51,000 feet, and a 14-hour longevity. Lighter aluminum alloys and composite materials make up the quasi monocoque airframe. It has a low wing, tricycle landing gear, and propellers that are mounted in the fuselage.
> 
> The design is based on the previous Canadair CL-600 and Bombardier CRJ aircraft. It has the same hull cross-section as these planes, but with a new T-tail and wing. The latter is a supersonic airfoil with wing tips and a 35° side sweep. Disruption is effectively attenuated by this extensible wing. It was initially powered by two FADEC-controlled BMW-Rolls-Royce BR710 turbofans. A 6 Honeywell Primus 2000 XP EFIS suite is installed on the jetway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since the successful operation Swift Retort against India, the importance of electronic warfare has grown. India breached Pakistani airspace on the 25th of February 2019 and claimed to have bombed militant targets inside Pakistani territory, which Pakistan categorically denies. According to Pakistan, IAF fighter jets released their drop tanks as soon as PAF fighter jets were dispatched in the air. No one knows who is telling the truth.
> 
> After all of this, Pakistan decided to take retaliation for the violation of its airspace. Mirage ROSE, JF-17, F-16, SAAB 2000 AWACS, and Falcon 20 EW jets were employed in Operation Swift Retort. The game changer things in that operation was Falcon 20 EW which blinded the IAF radars and there pilots had no idea what was going around them. Taking advantage of the circumstance, the Pakistan Air Force launched two missiles, one of which shot down an IAF MiG-21 and other Su30mki. Although India denied that any Su 30mki was shot down, But no one can deny that a Mig-21 was shot down.
> 
> All of this is due to Falcon 20’s electronic warfare capabilities. They are now being replaced by Global 6000 aircraft by the Pakistan Air Force. These jetliners will be outfitted with high-powered radar jamming technology, bolstering the PAF’s capabilities.
> 
> With the induction of Rafale, Tejas, and more Mig-29, the Indian Air Force is rapidly expanding. In addition, India recently received the S-400. For such situations, electronic warfare machines are appropriate. They jammed enemy radars and allowed their pilots to complete their missions, but the S-400 is no laughing matter. To jam it, you’ll need some serious Electronic Warfare skills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 868433


Really?? This is happening??

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## Windjammer

Blistering with an array of antennas, PAF's ELINT C-130 quietly goes about it's business.

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## ghazi52

.,.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
*ACE of PAF*​Pakistan Air Force Bombardier Global 6000 has arrived.
The aircraft will be modified to become an aerial standoff jammer EW and ELINT unit.
"Blinders" Reloaded

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## Hammad ur Rehman

Just last week Norwegian AF has retired its 50 years old Falcon DA-20 EW aircraft. They have done some 25,000 flying hours.

We should buy them & we can immediately double our nos at very low cost and for short duration until our Gulfstream is operational & more are acquired.


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## Tank131

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.
> *ACE of PAF*​Pakistan Air Force Bombardier Global 6000 has arrived.
> The aircraft will be modified to become an aerial standoff jammer EW and ELINT unit.
> "Blinders" Reloaded


I was under the impression this proved to be false and that is was bought as a VIP

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## Bin Laden

Hammad ur Rehman said:


> Just last week Norwegian AF has retired its 50 years old Falcon DA-20 EW aircraft. They have done some 25,000 flying hours.
> 
> We should buy them & we can immediately double our nos at very low cost and for short duration until our Gulfstream is operational & more are acquired.


PAF definitely shouldn't miss out on the opportunity, However don't know if Norwegians are willing to sell or not.


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## ghazi52

.
The most innocent plane in Pakistan Air Force service.
Woh to bas younhi, Thora bht...

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## Super Falcon

Pakistan is also considering to get two bombardier based global eye systems to boost AWE&C capabilities existing SAAB 2000 aircraft has a few major issues it's propeller make a bit much sound can be detected by enemies and it cannot achieve higher altitudes missions 

With bombardier jet engines their range and altitude can be increased and these global eye radars are far more capable than our existing erieyes to perform against extreme enemy jamming and electronic attack cluster and their radars have 25 percent more detection range and hardest to be jammed by enemy electronic attacks






However PAF will be getting a new Turkish based HAWA Standoff jamming aircraft to take on indian Rafales as Qatar placed it's Rafales in turkey for further capability research and study on them and build a Standoff Jammer to jam their aesa radars as Greeks also have Rafales which Turks has to tackle


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## Super Falcon

Jet engine based swedish erieye global eye on cards

Indian airforce will be getting joint developed Raytheon and Northrop Grumman EW air crafts


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## arslank03

Super Falcon said:


> Jet engine based swedish erieye global eye on cards
> 
> Indian airforce will be getting joint developed Raytheon and Northrop Grumman EW air crafts




dear expaart saar.

no global eye is on the cards, more importantly, let's just look at something.

"India getting new ISTAR standoff jammer aircraft"

oh mere bhai, Intelligence Survellience Target Acquisition Reconnaissance- ISTAR, where the hell do you see jamming?

Please, if you want to be taken seriously do a little bit of research


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## Oublious

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1584507832447119361

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1584507836306194432
According to this twitter account. Can somebody verify the twitter?


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## SQ8

Oublious said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1584507832447119361
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1584507836306194432
> According to this twitter account. Can somebody verify the twitter?


Incorrect - it is being only used for VIP duties

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## siegecrossbow

ghazi52 said:


> .,.
> 
> View attachment 871431



Found some additional info about upgrades to the platform.

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## ghazi52

.,.,


----------

