# The new SAC 5 generation stealth fighter



## skyknight

Well I am not sure&#65292;
but by judging from the the security level I am sure at least it is not a model for movies or parks&#12290;
Will this picture begin another exciting story like in 2010--the debut of J-20&#65311;
I am looking forward to more details&#12290;



















PS&#65292;the photo was taken in the service area of Beijing-Shenyang expressway&#12290;

new pic, thanks to homing28

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## Rajaraja Chola

The model and the photograph taken looks different..
most importantly the wings..

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## kurup

skyknight said:


>


Most probably must be a model..
Will somebody carry an orginal aircraft like that ??

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## conworldus

It is probably a wind tunnel testing model.


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## kawaraj

I notice there's a car endorsed with &#20844;&#23433; meaning Police Department in Chinese, isn't it?

and look at the guards and they should be SWAT or someones.

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## skyknight

octopus said:


> Most probably must be a model..
> Will somebody carry an orginal aircraft like that ??


You can see in the photo there are many armed polices &#65292;and the unknown object is covered with camouflage fabric often used by 
PLAAF and aircraft factories&#12290;
I think it must be something important and confidential&#12290;
BTW&#65292;In China &#65292;carrying a fighter with heavy truck is not surprising



conworldus said:


> It is probably a wind tunnel testing model.


It is Too big&#65292;
wind tunnel testing only use some small models&#12290;

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## Kompromat

Looks more like wind testing model , which in itself is an indication that the project is well on its way. Speaking of SAC project , i love that design by NUAA.

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## DrSomnath999

dude if it is confidential how can they even allow it on open to even photograph it .I know it is in camo but too skeptical to say 
anything even it doesnt have any vertical stabilzers .


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## conworldus

skyknight said:


> You can see in the photo there are many armed polices &#65292;and the unknown object is covered with camouflage fabric often used by
> PLAAF and aircraft factories&#12290;
> I think it must be something important and confidential&#12290;
> BTW&#65292;In China &#65292;carrying a fighter with heavy truck is not surprising
> 
> 
> It is Too big&#65292;
> wind tunnel testing only use some small models&#12290;



We have big, world class wind tunnels these days, and so we are able to use large wind tunnel models. This one is not too big. The closer the model size to the actual aircraft, the more accurate the data you obtain.



DrSomnath999 said:


> dude if it is confidential how can they even allow it on open to even photograph it .I know it is in camo but too skeptical to say
> anything even it doesnt have any vertical stabilzers .



The stabilizers are probably removed for transport purposes.

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## joekrish

The model looks great.


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## ashokdeiva

lets wait for the official word from the Chinese Government, rather than speculating on some thing that might or might not exist as of now.
There are a lot of secret weapons program all around the world considering the rivalry between nations to showcase supremecy over the others. So if this is a up comming project by the Chinese, then Congrats to them.

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## securityofficer

how type 5 gen fighter jets is china making


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## Safriz

This may be the export version of Chinese stealth..To rival F-35

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## conworldus

Safriz said:


> This may be the export version of Chinese stealth..To rival F-35



It is also possible that this is the stealth version of the FC-1/JF-17. The wings look like it.


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## GR!FF!N

that jet in photograph is tilted...who carry a real jet like that???it'll damage the real aircraft..i never saw an tilted aircraft before..must be some kind of model..


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## Broccoli

Since it has a police/guard escorts it must be something other than a simple prop build by some farmer. I can't see any film crew so it's not part of any movie scene being filmed...


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## Broccoli

octopus said:


> Will somebody carry an orginal aircraft like that ??



Canting make's it easier to go trough tight spots if you don't wan't to remove wings.

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## Safriz

conworldus said:


> It is also possible that this is the stealth version of the FC-1/JF-17. The wings look like it.



highly improbable...
as FC-1 is single engine,this is twin...

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## RazorMC

Doesn't seem too top-secret if someone was able to photograph it and then publish it online. Perhaps a new multirole fighter jet.


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## ChineseTiger1986

I start to lose my faith on SAC, those old dudes are running out of creativity and conservative mind has made them lagging behind of the younger team from CAC.

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## BordoEnes

Nice looking plane, Must be chinese equilivant of the F35. Hope it doesnt turn into a big disappoinment like F35 though. Good luck China.

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## no_name

Looks like all control surface is absent on the thing covered, as well as the canopy, therefore the wing shape looks incomplete. Right now it could simply be the main body shell yet to be assembled somewhere else. Btw maybe this indicates that it will have all moving tail and horizontal stabilizers.

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## Broccoli

no_name said:


> Btw maybe this indicates that it will have all moving tail



You mean something like Boeing's F/A-XX concept?


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## no_name

No, just like the J-20, F-35 and PAKFA.

Actually if the small model is anything to judge by it might have a more conventional piece. There isn't really a lot to judge on right now.


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## Roybot

Looks like L 15

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## ao333

Roybot said:


> Looks like L 15



Which looks like every other plane in the world.


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## MightyDragon

It is too big for a model...
Too small for a stealth fighter


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## no_name

I do not think it is L-15 because you can see a short protruding sting between where the two engines is to be placed. You don't see that on the L-15, whose engine nozzles are closer together.


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## Icewolf

Chinese equivalent of F-35.


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## siegecrossbow

I don't think it is a model. Some one obviously took the wind-shield off for ease of transportation.


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## cssniper

conworldus said:


> It is also possible that this is the stealth version of the FC-1/JF-17. The wings look like it.


 
this one was not made by the same research institution as jf17


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## siegecrossbow

no_name said:


> I do not think it is L-15 because you can see a short protruding sting between where the two engines is to be placed. You don't see that on the L-15, whose engine nozzles are closer together.



If this plane has two engines, does it mean that it will use WS-13 or some other advanced medium engine variant?


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## Icewolf

siegecrossbow said:


> If this plane has two engines, does it mean that it will use WS-13 or some other advanced medium engine variant?


 
J-20 is using WS-10A so maybe this new one will also


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## no_name

WS-10 is more powerful, but is it significantly heavier than ws-13? This plane is visibly smaller than J-20 or J-11B which currently uses WS-10. (J-10 is single engined). Weight could be an issue with this fighter.


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## SinoChallenger

no_name said:


> Looks like all control surface is absent on the thing covered, as well as the canopy, therefore the wing shape looks incomplete. Right now it could simply be the main body shell yet to be assembled somewhere else. Btw maybe this indicates that it will have all moving tail and horizontal stabilizers.


BINGO!


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## oct605032048

I still don't understand why would 601 keep spending money on a project which has already lost it's future with J20.


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## Sasquatch

to early to call however news a new aircraft will be shown this year.



siegecrossbow said:


> If this plane has two engines, does it mean that it will use WS-13 or some other advanced medium engine variant?



WS-13 engines for jf-17.  more likely WS-10.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> I start to lose my faith on SAC, those old dudes are running out of creativity and conservative mind has made them lagging behind of the younger team from CAC.



SAC has fallen way behind compared to Chengdu.


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## Sasquatch

isn't far off from the early J-20 photos but early to call.


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## mosu

wait and watch time will tell no comments


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## homing28



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## Kompromat

no_name said:


> I do not think it is L-15 because you can see a short protruding sting between where the two engines is to be placed. You don't see that on the L-15, whose engine nozzles are closer together.



Thak God people are still using their brain before writting. Btw where are gambit and oscar ?

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## Imran Khan

they can't carry it strict ?


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## OrionHunter

Here's a close-up. Notice the swept back projections on the wing tips. And there appear to be no tail fins. Probably dismantled for transportation purposes? Or it could be an aircraft being transported to the nearest military airbase after a crash landing!!  The question is: Which aircraft? Certainly not a J-20!


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## killerx

like it need it will buy it in large no


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## DrSomnath999

Well i dont think it is L15
why??

1) check the radome of L15 it is longer & narrower
while the model has shorter & broader

2) Check the levcons /Wing root in L15it is more rounded & approximating below the canopy
meanwhile the plane profile in that region look straighter

3)Check the fuselarge region behind the canopy in L15 it is more ovoid /elevated
Meanwhile check the fuselarge region IN MODEL behind the canopy it is flatter

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## Bratva



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## Sasquatch

J-15, J-16 are still in testing.


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## [--Leo--]

this could be the JF-17 stealth version front is look like that


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## Sasquatch

[--Leo--];3089965 said:


> this could be the JF-17 stealth version front is look like that



best to build a new stealth fighter then a stealth jf-17 the j-2x.

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## eachus

Icewolf said:


> Chinese equivalent of F-35.



guess if this one come out more meaningful than F35 and sell at 1/3 of the price. LM will cry!

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## no_name

OrionHunter said:


> Here's a close-up. Notice the swept back projections on the wing tips. And there appear to be no tail fins. Probably dismantled for transportation purposes? Or it could be an aircraft being transported to the nearest military airbase after a crash landing!!  The question is: Which aircraft? Certainly not a J-20!



The wing does not have a back projection at tip I think. It just looks that way because the wing flaps are not installed.

I think this plane will be the low end of the high-low mix with J-20.

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## Sasquatch



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## kurup

Why do they carry it tilted ??


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## Broccoli

It's safety to say that it's not L-15...

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## rcrmj

arrrrr```````i hate these kind of teasing and guessing``just let us know what is it!!

based on the size relatively compared to the Audi A-6L next to it, it is not a small plane, it will be over 17 meters in length


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## qwerrty

it does look longer than 15m estimated in other photo.


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## rcrmj

qwerrty said:


> it does look longer than 15m estimated in other photo.


 the black Audi A6L/A8L are at 5.01-5.2 meters in length, and the plane is around 3 times over the Audi, so when it put on stablizer and airspeed pitot tube so it will be longer than 17 metters


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## qwerrty

the way they transporting the plane is not new either..

f-22

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## Aramsogo

F-35 transported this way...

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## killerx

what ever will see soon working prototype

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## fjavaid

Y the hell wing assemblies still attached if its a real aircraft not a mock up .......carrying a prototype model like this does nt seem logical ..... it looks more like some university project or some wind tunnel test mock up ......


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## tomluter

I think that is one of stealth silent thunder version for PAF to test and select.

But i think it is difficult to compete with CAC's version.

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## Speeder 2

fjavaid said:


> Y the hell wing assemblies still attached if its a real aircraft not a mock up .......carrying a prototype model like this does nt seem logical ..... it looks more like some university project or some wind tunnel test mock up ......



1. which unveristy project or mock up has security guards of 5 police 4x4 ( 15 special policemen in total, at least) ?

2. which unveristy project or mock up has military car custody ( that Audi A6L has white colour military licence plate)

3. which unveristy project or mock up is transported as a full piece through busy Chinese highways that are closed for public temporarily, instead of disassembled pieces shipped by container trucks?

4. which unveristy project or mock up has authority AND finance to take such a level of security measures, and for what purpose, even if it's made of pure gold?

5. China is a very safe (low crime rate) country. I doubt the transport of Hu Jintao himself would rival this level of security. This shows whatever on it, it is classified as State-Level, or portentially State-Level.

A mock up or a L-15 alike is out of the question.

Pity that I am late to the subject, but this to me is almost 100% assured smoking gun of F-60.

I suggest the MODS change the thread title into *China's second 5 gen stealth fighter - Shenyang F-60 *


It has internal weapon bay and HUGE nose. Whatever it will be called, once it flies and uses J-20 alike eletronics it should be able to take down a Rafale like squash a mosquito. Indian's MMCA decision makers should have suffered collective heart attacks in the past 48 hours already, if their average IQ is > 82.

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## Stealth

Man Chineez seriously **** world in Weapons soon.... they are making unpredictable stuff for Military ....

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## UKBengali

Speeder 2 said:


> 1. which unveristy project or mock up has security guards of 5 police 4x4 ( 15 special policemen in total, at least) ?
> 
> 2. which unveristy project or mock up has military car custody ( that Audi A6L has white colour military licence plate)
> 
> 3. which unveristy project or mock up is transported as a full piece through busy Chinese highways that are closed for public temporarily, instead of disassembled pieces shipped by container trucks?
> 
> 4. which unveristy project or mock up has authority AND finance to take such a level of security measures, and for what purpose, even if it's made of pure gold?
> 
> 5. China is a very safe (low crime rate) country. I doubt the transport of Hu Jintao himself would rival this level of security. This shows whatever on it, it is classified as State-Level, or portentially State-Level.
> 
> A mock up or a L-15 alike is out of the question.
> 
> Pity that I am late to the subject, but this to me is almost 100% assured smoking gun of F-60.
> 
> I suggest the MODS change the thread title into *China's second 5 gen stealth fighter - Shenyang F-60 *
> 
> 
> It has internal weapon bay and HUGE nose. Whatever it will be called, once it flies and uses J-20 alike eletronics it should be able to take down a Rafale like squash a mosquito. Indian's MMCA decision makers should have suffered collective heart attacks in the past 48 hours already, if their average IQ is > 82.



Jealous Indians as usual!

China now seems to be knocking out one stealth
aircraft after another.

China builds it's own 5th generation fighters
and India has to import 4th generation fighters
like Rafale and then brag about how it will
"DOMINATE" South Asia.

If this really is a 5th generation, China should
give 100 to Pakistan so they can then "DOMINATE"
the skies of South Asia.

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## UKBengali

^^^ As Indians already involved in claiming this could not be a 5th generation aircraft, simply due to jealousy at China's progress.

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## Roybot

UKBengali said:


> ^^^ As Indians already involved in claiming this could not be a 5th generation aircraft, simply due to jealousy at China's progress.



Go visit any chinese defence forum and see if there are similar guesses made by others too or not. You on the other hand have said nothing here other than being a spineless cheerleader.


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## oct605032048

UKBengali said:


> ^^^ As Indians already involved in claiming this could not be a 5th generation aircraft, simply due to jealousy at China's progress.



It's a 4th generation fighter same as J20.


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## Sasquatch

Broccoli said:


> It's safety to say that it's not L-15...


 
new photo nice.

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## Aramsogo

UKBengali said:


> Jealous Indians as usual!
> 
> China now seems to be knocking out one stealth
> aircraft after another.
> 
> China builds it's own 5th generation fighters
> and India has to import 4th generation fighters
> like Rafale and then brag about how it will
> "DOMINATE" South Asia.
> 
> If this really is a 5th generation, *China should
> give 100 to Pakistan so they can then "DOMINATE"
> the skies of South Asia*.


 
This is definitely for Pakistan. India will still be trying to buy/pay for 4th gen Rafale.

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## lcloo

oct605032048 said:


> It's a 4th generation fighter same as J20.



China used different defination of fighter generation. China's 4th Generation jet is equivalent to 5th generation in the west.

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## LTE-TDD

Hu Songshan said:


> new photo nice.



Do not know how to post photo here, but, please check this link, it provide a shadow project analysis. It almost a half F35:

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1405670-1-1.html

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## homing28

LTE-TDD said:


> Do not know how to post photo here, but, please check this link, it provide a shadow project analysis. It almost a half F35:
> 
> Çë¿´´ËÍ¼Í¶Ó°£¬¡°ôÕ×Ó¡±¿Ï¶¨²»ÊÇL15-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³

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## Speeder 2

Shenyang must be the &#8220;cloning&#8221; capital of the world...&#8221;cloning&#8221; Flankers and F-35 at the same time! The capability and capacity involved are peerless worldwide. It only took about 3 years from 5th gen paper design (2008? 2009?) to static test(2012). LCA must be very jealous on this &#8230;

Nonetheless, this &#8220;thing&#8221; will blow Rafale off the water for sure  You gotta give it to SAC though. for it did so even without a sample of F-35, using a fraction of its cost & time 

So Lockma Yang Shenhoi Co. Ltd Rulez!

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## oct605032048

LTE-TDD said:


> Do not know how to post photo here, but, please check this link, it provide a shadow project analysis. It almost a half F35:
> 
> Çë¿´´ËÍ¼Í¶Ó°£¬¡°ôÕ×Ó¡±¿Ï¶¨²»ÊÇL15-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³



F35 shi dan fa zhe huo ming xian suang fa.


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## Sasquatch

Speeder 2 said:


> Shenyang must be the &#8220;cloning&#8221; capital of the world...&#8221;cloning&#8221; Flankers and F-35 at the same time! The capability and capacity involved are peerless worldwide. It only took about 3 years from 5th gen paper design (2008? 2009?) to static test(2012). LCA must be very jealous on this &#8230;
> 
> Nonetheless, this &#8220;thing&#8221; will blow Rafale off the water for sure  You gotta give it to SAC though. for it did so even without a sample of F-35, using a fraction of its cost & time
> 
> So Lockma Yang Shenhoi Co. Ltd Rulez!



SAC has fallen behind.


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## April.lyrics

Speeder 2 said:


> Shenyang must be the cloning capital of the world...cloning Flankers and F-35 at the same time! The capability and capacity involved are peerless worldwide. It only took about 3 years from 5th gen paper design (2008? 2009?) to static test(2012). LCA must be very jealous on this
> 
> Nonetheless, this thing will blow Rafale off the water for sure  You gotta give it to SAC though. for it did so even without a sample of F-35, using a fraction of its cost & time
> 
> So Lockma Yang Shenhoi Co. Ltd Rulez!



....feel better?


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## WS-10 Engine

this IS the J-21, huitong has confirmed it.
he said a few months back that the j-21 would be making its 1st flight in september 2012.
now he has fully confirmed that is the picture of the j-21.

this is amazing news.

we got:
J-10A/B
J-11A/B
J-15
J-16
J-20
J-21

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## rcrmj

WS-10 Engine said:


> this IS the J-21, huitong has confirmed it.
> he said a few months back that the j-21 would be making its 1st flight in september 2012.
> now he has fully confirmed that is the picture of the j-21.
> 
> this is amazing news.
> 
> we got:
> J-10A/B
> J-11A/B
> J-15
> J-16
> J-20
> J-21


but huitong said the J-21 will be as long as 20 meters, and this one seems around 18meters at maximum


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## eachus

true, the scary portion of the J-21 is confirmed the Chinese speed and efficiency. China just worked out J10 not long ago, 10 years or less suddenly a J20, less than 2 years here comes a J21. 

other than the speed, one is efficiency and those are together. F35 spent hundred billions, J20 is unknown but it should be within $10 billion, even China spent $20B in J20. it is still peanut compare with F35. are they the same thing? no, J35 costs $230s million each, and J20 is far less than half of the price tag. yet, J20 blows F35 out of water! around mid of 90s, US has tech leads China about 2 generations. and as today, China runs behind US and closed most of gap. 

J21 is a plus, I cant wait to see it get rid of the cover, show us the real face.

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## skyknight

eachus said:


> true, the scary portion of the J-21 is confirmed the Chinese speed and efficiency. China just worked out J10 not long ago, 10 years or less suddenly a J20, less than 2 years here comes a J21.
> 
> other than the speed, one is efficiency and those are together. F35 spent hundred billions, J20 is unknown but it should be within $10 billion, even China spent $20B in J20. it is still peanut compare with F35. are they the same thing? no, J35 costs $230s million each, and J20 is far less than half of the price tag. yet, J20 blows F35 out of water! around mid of 90s, US has tech leads China about 2 generations. and as today, China runs behind US and closed most of gap.
> 
> J21 is a plus, I cant wait to see it get rid of the cover, show us the real face.


JSF is a troll project&#65292; plotted by America to destroy the other countries indigenous aviation industry&#12290;

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## WS-10 Engine

where is gambit?

i thought he would have commented in here by now.


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## qingshuicun

it's interesting


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## mosu

F-60: China&#8217;s another stealth fighter 

here are some new pics




















it is china's new F-60 stealth fighter

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## UKBengali

^^^ This should be the aircraft available for export in the 2020s.

I would love for BD to purchase a few squadrons of these.

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## scherz

From which aircraft industry is this? Chengdu, shangyan?


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## SamranAli

China is going to be biggest name in Fighter jets. So expect this type of surprizes from them.

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## Sasquatch

scherz said:


> From which aircraft industry is this? Chengdu, shangyan?



Shenyang SAC.


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## kkacer

China F60/J21 = F-35

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## Kompromat

What does that Chinese translation suggest?


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## kkacer

Aeronaut said:


> What does that Chinese translation suggest?



the road are blocked for 3 hours, many soilders, polices around. 

you can find more information the link below

ÒÉËÆÉò·ÉF-60¹«Â·ÕÕÆ¬¼¯ÖÐÌÖÂÛÌû¡¾23ÈÕ15£º30¸üÐÂ¡¿-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³


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## Korean

Icewolf said:


> Chinese equivalent of F-35.


F-35 is actually a huge aircraft. This one looks small.


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## Broccoli

A new angle.

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## no_name

Slightly larger

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## Kompromat

^What is that building in the background?


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## no_name

Looks like a semi-official station of some sort. Could be a stop along the highway.

How fast do people think this convoy is travelling? No more than 40 Km/h? maybe 30 max?

The plane is not really that small, it looks smaller because it is slightly tilted so part of the side is hidden. Also people are used to seeing planes with their wheel down on the ground. Planes will appear smaller without the landing wheels out.


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## Kompromat

What city is this?


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## no_name

I dunno am just posting what I found. It's not a city but on highway.

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## homing28

"&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;"
&#38493;&#35199;&#38331;&#33391;?


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## oct605032048

homing28 said:


> "&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;"
> &#38493;&#35199;&#38331;&#33391;?



xiao er bu yu.


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## Sasquatch

Another photo.

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## lordwedggie

Why ciao er bu yu! Tell us! ;0


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## LTE-TDD

Aeronaut said:


> ^What is that building in the background?




Just a highway rest area.

This is a highway rest area close to Xian (it's destination for structure test)

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## Black Widow

LTE-TDD said:


> Just a highway rest area.
> 
> This is a highway rest area close to Xian (it's destination for structure test)


 



you are working on Telecom? so do I, I work on IMS core network.


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## Martian2

*Another twin-engine Chinese stealth aircraft makes sense for power projection*





China's SAC (Shenyang Aircraft Corporation) twin-engine stealth fighter.





















I think another twin-engine stealth aircraft makes sense.

I had originally believed China would build a single-engine stealth fighter in a hi-lo mix to complement the twin-engine J-20 Mighty Dragon. However, if China believes it has very strong ground-based air defenses then it doesn't need stealthy point-defense single-engine air-superiority fighters.

For example, the non-stealthy single-engine F-16 has a combat radius of 340 miles. Similarly, the J-10 has a combat radius of 330 miles (or 550km). In contrast, the twin-engine F-15 has a combat radius of 1,222 miles.

Therefore, we can only conclude China is interested in building fighters for power projection. In other words, the J-20 and the new twin-engine SAC fighter are both intended to dominate the airspace over other countries or the South China Sea.

----------

References:

General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Note: Thank you to Greyboy2, CardSharp, and No_Name for the pictures.]

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## Roybot

Is it possible that J-20 and this one will compete with each other and the better aircraft will get inducted in PLAAF?

Like YF-22 and YF-23?


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## Martian2

Roybot said:


> Is it possible that J-20 and this one will compete with each other and the better aircraft will get inducted in PLAAF?
> 
> Like YF-22 and YF-23?



That's certainly a possibility, but I think it's unlikely.

I think China wants to support two different aircraft manufacturers in both Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation to preserve competition. The U.S. has both Lockheed Martin and Boeing. I don't think China needs to pick only one winner. I don't believe China will build only 187 fighters, like the F-22.

Personally, I think China will build hundreds or possibly a thousand of each fighter (over a long period of time). Once the R&D costs have been sunk, the marginal cost to produce an aircraft is relatively small. Also, in a large batch, the per unit cost drops.

It is only the greed of American defense companies and their cost-plus-overrun contracts that lead to such a fantastic price for each F-22.

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## ChineseTiger1986

This could perhaps be our 4th gen naval aircraft for our future CVN.

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## Arsalan

it seem to be the Chinese F-60 / J-21




only time will tell what this really is...
looking at the past record of Chinese aviation industry, specially the progress and surprises they have shown in past decade or so, i am pretty much sure that this IS a new fifth generation fighter.

there were projects (J2X for example) of some new fifth generation planes that even PAF showed interest in.

regards!

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## Jango

Well, so much for _secret_!!


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## rockstarIN

There is always a possibility that a medium range stealth jet to be coming out from China.

Can't always rely on the heavy jets though in high numbers and exports too.


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## rockstarIN

There is always a possibility that a medium range stealth jet to be coming out from China.

Can't always rely on the heavy jets though in high numbers and exports too.


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## Speeder 2

Whatever it is, it is NOT a mock-up!

Whatever it is, it is NOT a student project!

Whatever it is or will be called, it is a something NEW, made by SAC!

Whatever it is, its F-35 alike body, or its HUGE ( think: in terms of the IQ reflected ) shaped head alone, suggests that it aims at being a 5th gen.

What else are you waiting for, MODS? For the confirmation by Obama? 
¨
*Therefore, for the 2rd time in 3 days I strongly urge MODS make this thread STICKY, titled as Shangyang 5th gen stealth fighter F-60. *

TheJ-20 sticky thread we have there has missed entirely the earlier guessing parts since you haven´t been quick enough. You don´t want to miss this F-60 part, too, when it enters service one way or another years later. 

C´mon, make this STICKY and be done with it!

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## homing28

&#38414;&#33391;&#20882;&#27515;&#20599;&#25293;
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1684471986

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## Speeder 2

More or less I think we agree that the photos suggest that F-60 has wing span>10m, size between F-35 and super hornet.

It would be interesting to estimate its max takeoff weight and combat radius in comparison to F-35. Anyone?

So its maiden flight will be in September?

darn it, just noticed this> that Chinese lanuage thread on F-60 has already passed 90 pages in 3 days with >3000 comments!

This must be real!

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## Götterdämmerung

Amazing, just two years after the first stealth aircraft, there seems to be a second one coming up. The speed of development in China is mind boggling. space docking, 7000 under the sea and a new stealth aircraft. 

I'm really looking forward to seeing this new bird in the sky soon.

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## Kompromat

Götterdämmerung;3101766 said:


> Amazing, just two years after the first stealth aircraft, there seems to be a second one coming up. The speed of development in China is mind boggling. space docking, 7000 under the sea and a new stealth aircraft.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to seeing this new bird in the sky soon.


 

And i am seriously waiting to see it in PAF colors !

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## Beast

Aeronaut said:


> And i am seriously waiting to see it in PAF colors !



It will!! It is specify tailor for export. PAF will be the first customer.

It is the reason why J-10B deal for PAF not going forward. Becos they realise F-60 is around the corner. Just wait 2 years, F-60 will join PAF. Even PAF-KA and Rafale will be no match for PAF..

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## Speeder 2

Hollysh!T, there is another one! 

Just read another forum saying that according to one of the insiders Huizgeng that SAC is working on another 5 gen ( heavy multirole), powered by 2 WS-15. its maiden flight would be 2013.

This F-60 is medium 5 gen mainly aiming at PLAN in post J-15 era, apart from export potential.

wow! the pentagon would go nuts if that is real...is it?

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## Beast

Speeder 2 said:


> Hollysh!T, there is another one!
> 
> Just read another forum saying that according to one of the insiders Huizgeng that SAC is working on another 5 gen ( heavy multirole), powered by 2 WS-15. its maiden flight would be 2013.
> 
> This F-60 is medium 5 gen mainly aiming at PLAN in post J-15 era, apart from export potential.
> 
> wow! the pentagon would go nuts if that is real...is it?



I doubt so.. Is PLAAF mad to go for 2 heavy weight 5th gen fighter??? SAC shall concentrate on this F-60 project for export or try to win PLAAF going for a medium weight 5th gen fighter.

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## Broccoli

They are hauling it to this airbase. 


> The Yan Liang Flight Testing Facility in the outskirts of Xian is usually off limits to international delegations. The civil/military joint use airport is located next to AVIC I (China Aviation Industry Corporation I), China's largest military aviation research and development institute, and is the flight testing and research center for various aircraft from fighter jets to GA applications.
> 
> The Yan Liang test base Aerial High-tech Industry Base is the only national aerial high-tech industry base in the whole country. There are aircraft design, manufacture and test and it is the largest aircraft city in Asia, known as "China's Seattle." During the 1980s, the PLAAF did not believe that it was receiving timely and accurate testing data from the aviation ministry during the ministry's development and testing of new aircraft at the Xian Yanliang flight test center. The Training Department is responsible for the Test Flight Regiment (shifei tuan) at Xian Yanliang airfield and its subordinate Test Flight Groups (shifei dadui) which are assigned to each aircraft factory.


Yanliang Airbase - China Military Forces

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## tvsram1992

All the best China  Keep the great work and R&D going .


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## SinoChallenger

Aeronaut said:


> And i am seriously waiting to see it in PAF colors !


It already looks like PAF green

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## DANGER-ZONE

> An airframe of what might be the J-21 prototype was being transported from SAC to another facility for static tests. A scale-down model (F-60) of J-21 was first unveiled by the 601 Institute at the first International UAV Innovation Grand Prix held in Beijing in September 2011. It was first rumored in April 2011 that 601/SAC are developing a 4th generation medium multi-role stealth fighter as J-21 which would complement the heavier J-20 (see above). The aircraft has a conventional design featuring twin engines and DSIs similar to both American F-22 and F-35. The prototype could initially be powered by the 8.5t class WS-13A turbofan but later by the new 9.5t class "medium thrust" engine (WS-13B/WS-12?). The aircraft will also feature an internal weapon bay inside its belly housing PL-10, PL-12 or PL-15 AAMs. However due to its relatively small size and lower engine thrust compared to J-20, J-21 might suffer from either a limited internal payload or a shorter combat radius. A full-scale metal model was probably built in early 2011. The first prototype has been under construction since late 2011. First flight was projected to be in September 2012. J-21 (dubbed AMF/Advanced Multi-role Fighter/FC-2?) is expected to be promoted at the international market as a low-cost alternative to American F-35.
> - Last Updated 6/22/12


Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

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## Speeder 2

* SAC F-60 (estimated) Vs. F-22/A Raptor:*
























* SAC F-60&#8217;s current engine:*





*
So ladies and gentlemen, with ratio of roughly 0.89:1, Lockma Y. Shenhoi Co.Ltd. sucessfully &#8220;cloned&#8221; F-22A Raptor during its afternoon tea breaks! *

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## farhan_9909

mini f-22 i guess


can i dream of f-22 in PAF now?

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## UKBengali

^^^ It was obvious that the Chinese would make a smaller 5th generation fighter than J-20 and that it would be available for export.

With this China can offer a fighter that would be competitive with F-35 and maybe cost only half the price.

The US must be Sh!tting in their pants as now their F-35 customers will be able to see how much the US is ripping them off with a low speed, low manueverable and highly expensive jet.

Pakistan would be the 1st country to be offered this beast of course.

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## Esc8781

UKBengali said:


> ^^^ It was obvious that the Chinese would make a smaller 5th generation fighter than J-20 and that it would be available for export.
> 
> With this China can offer a fighter that would be competitive with F-35 and maybe cost only half the price.
> 
> The US must be Sh!tting in their pants as now their F-35 customers will be able to see how much the US is ripping them off with a low speed, low manueverable and highly expensive jet.
> 
> Pakistan would be the 1st country to be offered this beast of course.


 You should search more about the f-35, btw the pentagon sold some projects to China so we know that this is going to happen.


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## Sanchez

Pentagon has nothing to do with Chinese modern jets...

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## no_name

Götterdämmerung;3101766 said:


> Amazing, just two years after the first stealth aircraft, there seems to be a second one coming up. The speed of development in China is mind boggling. space docking, 7000 under the sea and a new stealth aircraft.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to seeing this new bird in the sky soon.



Actually if this is closely related to the original design that they have for competing with CAC's J-20 for the 5th gen fighter plane than it would have been in development pretty much as long as the J-20. So it is actually a bit behind J-20 in progress.

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## Akasa

Speeder 2 said:


> Hollysh!T, there is another one!
> 
> Just read another forum saying that according to one of the insiders Huizgeng that SAC is working on another 5 gen ( heavy multirole), powered by 2 WS-15. its maiden flight would be 2013.
> 
> This F-60 is medium 5 gen mainly aiming at PLAN in post J-15 era, apart from export potential.
> 
> wow! the pentagon would go nuts if that is real...is it?



Can you link me to the insider post? How credible is this insider?

And also, CAC is developing a light version of the J-20, rumored to be unveiled in a few years, also geared for export.

www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/123488-paf-next-generation-fighter-program-confirmed-9.html (post #1)

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## Speeder 2

SinoSoldier said:


> SAC vs CAC
> 
> is like
> 
> Canucks vs Bruins
> 
> people have no idea what I'm talking about, do they?)



 not everyones Canadian and an icehockey fan/





SinoSoldier said:


> Can you link me to the insider post? How credible is this insider?
> 
> And also, CAC is developing a light version of the J-20, rumored to be unveiled in a few years, also geared for export.
> 
> www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/123488-paf-next-generation-fighter-program-confirmed-9.html (post #1)



I spent nearly whole late afternoon studying this:  

¹ØÓÚ¡°Ä³ÍøÓÑÈÏÎªÉòËÄ¿ÕÖØ16¶Ö¡±¡ª¡ªÎÒ¾ÍÊÇÄ³ÍøÓÑ-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ 

Check post #30 , those 3 quoted posts of "jx32s". The dude correctly "predicted" what we saw in last several days at as early as June 4, 2012! I dunno his background but he must be well informed. His posts were quoted again at #30 by a guy ranked as Major General.

For Huizigeng's relevant quotation, i can't recall where exactly, sorry, seems that I saw it somewhere at around page 100 (?) of that longest thread at cjdby... someone mentioned and quoted Huizgeng (that famous insider) for sure, well, if my memory serves me well...just too much info in the afternoon

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## Speeder 2

SinoC,

Yeah, I got it: ´óµ¨Ô¤²â£¬ÎÒÃÇ¿ÉÄÜ»¹½«¿´µ½ÁíÍâµÄËÄ´ú-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ see post 22. He quoted 3 sources in one breath. I&#8217;ve only heard of this Huzigeng guy. 

Dunno his credibility but looks like that he&#8217;s not lying. What don&#8217;t you ask him if you have an account there?

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## no_name

Speeder 2 said:


> This F-60 is medium 5 gen mainly aiming at PLAN in post J-15 era, apart from export potential.
> 
> wow! the pentagon would go nuts if that is real...is it?



If that is the case shouldn't they be able to transport it with its wings folded?

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## Speeder 2

no_name said:


> If that is the case shouldn't they be able to transport it with its wings folded?



What we see IMO is only the base model whose wings can't be folded. But surely it's been deliberately designed to be a future naval fighter when needed, which i suspect is its prime design objective, with only minor changes. I don't think SAC is dumb enough to do otherwise though.

/

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## lordwedggie

Thank you Speed2 for that link, looks like a fun place to visit. 

I spent the past two hours reading the link provided, they use too many 'network language' and military slangs for me to fully understand but, are they saying there is going to be 2 light and 2 heavy fourth gen fighters??? A light/heavy pair for both the AF and the navy?

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## Speeder 2

lordwedggie said:


> Thank you Speed2 for that link, looks like a fun place to visit.
> 
> I spent the past two hours reading the link provided, they use too many 'network language' and military slangs for me to fully understand but, are they saying there is going to be 2 light and 2 heavy fourth gen fighters??? A light/heavy pair for both the AF and the navy?



that's what i have been suffering, too.  

Up to now, TG=CPC , MD=USA, zhong zi= F-60, silk band = J-20, stick = J-10, for sure.

But what is HKC?? anyone has any idea on this ?

Four 5th gen projects, a bit too many to be realistic for me  even though i like it.

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## skyknight

Speeder 2 said:


> that's what i have been suffering, too.
> 
> Up to now, TG=CPC , MD=USA, zhong zi= F-60, silk band = J-20, stick = J-10, for sure.
> 
> But what is HKC?? any idea?
> 
> 4 5th gen, a bit too many to be realistic for me even though i like it.


HCK-&#32418;&#35044;&#34921;means the one who is optimistic about China's military technology&#65292;the opposite one is BKC&#30333;&#35044;&#34921;&#12290;

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## Speeder 2

sigh! 

*Make no mistake, this is THE ONLY 5th friggin 5 gen in the world! *, after F-22, J-20, T-50 and F-35!

Imagin *IF *France or Britain made this the world would go nuts!


The obvious lack of interest here in PDF indicates what?

that everyone have lost every drops of confidence on SAC??

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## Martian2

Speeder 2 said:


> sigh!
> 
> *Make no mistake, this is THE ONLY 5th friggin 5 gen in the world! *, after F-22, J-20, T-50 and F-35!
> 
> Imagin *IF *France or Britain made this the world would go nuts!
> 
> 
> The obvious lack of interest here in PDF indicates what?
> 
> that everyone have lost every drops of confidence on SAC??



It means everyone thinks it is normal for China to accomplish superb hi-tech feats of engineering. The SAC fifth-generation fighter has to compete with Shenzhou-9 in orbit (after accomplishing a flawless manual docking) and the Jiaolong submersible under 7,000 meters of ocean.

Everyone expects superlatives from China. There are monthly Chinese rocket launches and people are becoming numb to the routine successful launches.

In conclusion, I think it's malaise. Everyone knows China is fantastic at science and engineering.

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## SinoChallenger

Martian2 said:


> It means everyone thinks it is normal for China to accomplish superb hi-tech feats of engineering. The SAC fifth-generation fighter has to compete with Shenzhou-9 in orbit (after accomplishing a flawless manual docking) and the Jiaolong submersible under 7,000 meters of ocean.
> 
> Everyone excepts superlatives from China. There are monthly Chinese rocket launches and people are becoming numb to the routine successful launches.
> 
> In conclusion, I think it's malaise. Everyone knows China is fantastic at science and engineering.


Don't be complacent. We are a $6000 / per capita per year nation still. We have brain drain problems still. We have corruption and social problems. We have a long way to go.

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## Akasa

Speeder 2 said:


> SinoC,
> 
> Yeah, I got it: ´óµ¨Ô¤²â£¬ÎÒÃÇ¿ÉÄÜ»¹½«¿´µ½ÁíÍâµÄËÄ´ú-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ see post 22. He quoted 3 sources in one breath. I&#8217;ve only heard of this Huzigeng guy.
> 
> Dunno his credibility but looks like that he&#8217;s not lying. What don&#8217;t you ask him if you have an account there?



But none of the insiders directly stated it.


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## lmjiao

CG pic of F-60 of China Navy






BTW, Mod please make this thread sticky as SAC 5 generation fighter F-60/J-21

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## lordwedggie

Speeder 2 said:


> that's what i have been suffering, too.
> 
> Up to now, TG=CPC , MD=USA, zhong zi= F-60, silk band = J-20, stick = J-10, for sure.
> 
> But what is HKC?? anyone has any idea on this ?
> 
> Four 5th gen projects, a bit too many to be realistic for me  even though i like it.



Do you know what XiaoBai (little white) means? And I'm guessing Tubie means the PLA? 

Zong Zi is hilarious, they actually had a thread to vote for a nicknames and Zong Zi won. I suppose an English translation would be Rice Dumpling, imagine the headlines 'Plane was shot down yesterday by missile launched from the Chinese J-21 Rice Dumpling'. . I registered an account but is too intimidated to post anything there.

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## rcrmj

lordwedggie said:


> Do you know what XiaoBai (little white) means? And I'm guessing Tubie means the PLA?
> 
> Zong Zi is hilarious, they actually had a thread to vote for a nicknames and Zong Zi won. I suppose an English translation would be Rice Dumpling, imagine the headlines 'Plane was shot down yesterday by missile launched from the Chinese J-21 Rice Dumpling'. . I registered an account but is too intimidated to post anything there.


I know that website is too intimidating, most members there are very knowledgeble with very serious technical debate```I learnt a lot from it...

I think some of those guys are full-time enthusiast they spent great deal of time to do very thorough analysis by using different software and methologies``

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## Merilion

lordwedggie said:


> Do you know what XiaoBai (little white) means? And I'm guessing Tubie means the PLA?
> 
> Zong Zi is hilarious, they actually had a thread to vote for a nicknames and Zong Zi won. I suppose an English translation would be Rice Dumpling, imagine the headlines 'Plane was shot down yesterday by missile launched from the Chinese J-21 Rice Dumpling'. . I registered an account but is too intimidated to post anything there.


 
xiaobai means newbie, guess it derives from plain paper.
dont be fear, there are tons of xiaobai there posting nothing but garbage daily. in general most of them are HKC

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## lmjiao

Merilion said:


> xiaobai means newbie, guess it derives from plain paper.
> dont be fear, there are tons of xiaobai there posting nothing but garbage daily. in general most of them are HKC



You guys please stop using Hei-Hua here. Most Chinese won't understand those HKC etc, let along people from other countries.
So please use standard English here to make yourself understood.


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## Rafi

Proud of our Chinese brethren's endeavors Godspeed.

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## rcrmj

I just spent one hour on this thread
pupu

the 'insider' pupu says that *PLAAF will not induct F-60, as it is primary designed for Navy and export purposes *(he didnt mention Pakistan).... the F-60 primary emphazies on stealth, then weapon capacity and range, manuvability is at the last``!!! and he also mentioned that F-60 is not the only stealth project going on at SAC, there is going to be another one, a slightly logner (18m) medium weight stealth fighters to compliment CAC's J-20 to dominate future sky```!!!

he sateted that CAC is also deveoping a navy version J-20 (smaller size and weight) to compete with SAC's F-60 for PLAN's aircraft carrier's aircraft`````!!

man``this is maddness!! if it wasnt for leaking J-20 few years ago, I'd just consider him retard`````

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## Speeder 2

Who is pupu? To have four 5 gen is both conceptually and financially impossible IMO, an unnecesssary waste really.

I think F-60 can hardly be exported within 20 years. Pakistan aside, only 2 regions in the world could possiblely afford it:

1. ME (wait to see Saudis jump ship or hedge bet... or no?)

2. Brasil + Argentina (depending on China-Brasil strategic pact...too big political impact as it's US backyard...worsening relationship with the UK...since UK could then kiss the Falkenlands goodbye).

As for PLAN, actually I think the best / the most powerful move would be navalised J-20. Except launching F-22A from Ford Class, the all-mighty US pacific fleet could be a sitting duck if J-20 is on Varyag as it's far more lethal platform than F-35B/C.

To be frank I don't see how F-60 could be used for sure, except perhaps some purchase from PLAAF to keep SAC alive? 

So logically, F-60 has no real adv against potential naval version J-20 except some minor experiences of making J-15 which can be shared by J-20 since both CAC and SAC are under AVIC, no?

The most practical way, to follow the logic, is thus to have two 5th gen only: J-20(&its naval version...hence lower cost via economy of scales), and some F-60 for PLAAF perhaps? Dunno who is pupu, but sorry I don't agree with him.

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## manofwar

Speeder 2 said:


> As for PLAN, actually I think the best / the most powerful move would be navalised J-20. Except launching F-22A from Ford Class, the all-mighty US pacific fleet could be a sitting duck if J-20 is on Varyag as it's far more lethal platform than F-35B/C.


hmm...................Quantity does count for something mate
For this plan to succeed 2 or 3 Varyag sized ships are enough, PLAN needs heavy supercarriers
One American Carrier -> 90 F-35
One Varyag size PLAN carrier-> 40 J 20 max( due to it being a larger plane)


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## Speeder 2

Being much faster, stealthier, more manuevarble, having more missiles, flying higher and longer, 40 navalised J-20 will eat 90 F-35 for snacks to start with.


.

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## Esc8781

Speeder 2 said:


> Being much faster, stealthier, more manuevarble, having more missiles, flying higher and longer, 40 navalised J-20 will eat 90 F-35 for snacks to start with. Being more advance than the j-20 the f-35 will eat the 100 j-20s because it can jam its radar and so on. You really think the f-35 is garbage huh? Please search up its avionics it will eat the j-20.
> 
> 
> .


 Being more advance than the j-20 the f-35 will eat the 100 j-20s because it can jam its radar and so on. You really think the f-35 is garbage huh? Please search up its avionics it will eat the j-20.


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## SinoChallenger

Esc8781 said:


> Being more advance than the j-20 the f-35 will eat the 100 j-20s because it can jam its radar and so on. You really think the f-35 is garbage huh? Please search up its avionics it will eat the j-20.


 Watching too much Star Wars and Americans are easily conned

F-35 jet: Bouncing too much to find the enemy

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## Speeder 2

Esc8781 said:


> You really think the f-35 is garbage huh? .



For that kind of quality/price, trust me I really really do.


\


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## Esc8781

SinoChallenger said:


> Watching too much Star Wars and Americans are easily conned
> 
> F-35 jet: Bouncing too much to find the enemy


 What do you know about the j-20 if it is having problems the f-35 is advanced that is why they are having problems with it hahaha I actually search up the f-35 and learn about it, you are watching too much crap that is saying that the j-20 will beat the f-35, btw you fanboys think that the j-20 is invincible, better than all of the jets the US produce, let me tell you something we have been doing stealth since the 1960s. If it is not giving trouble then the jet is a POS.



Speeder 2 said:


> For that kind of quality/price, trust me I really really do.
> 
> 
> \


 Don't worry it is the greed of the defense companies that is keeping the price up it will go down.


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## gambit

SinoChallenger said:


> Watching too much Star Wars and Americans are easily conned


And what have the J-20 accomplished other than a few fly-bys to justify your extreme speculations? Conned or self delusional?


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## Sasquatch

lmjiao said:


> CG pic of F-60 of China Navy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, Mod please make this thread sticky as SAC 5 generation fighter F-60/J-21













Sticky for this is soon.

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## rcrmj

Speeder 2 said:


> Who is pupu? To have four 5 gen is both conceptually and financially impossible IMO, an unnecesssary waste really.
> 
> I think F-60 can hardly be exported within 20 years. Pakistan aside, only 2 regions in the world could possiblely afford it:
> 
> 1. ME (wait to see Saudis jump ship or hedge bet... or no?)
> 
> 2. Brasil + Argentina (depending on China-Brasil strategic pact...too big political impact as it's US backyard...worsening relationship with the UK...since UK could then kiss the Falkenlands goodbye).
> 
> As for PLAN, actually I think the best / the most powerful move would be navalised J-20. Except launching F-22A from Ford Class, the all-mighty US pacific fleet could be a sitting duck if J-20 is on Varyag as it's far more lethal platform than F-35B/C.
> 
> To be frank I don't see how F-60 could be used for sure, except perhaps some purchase from PLAAF to keep SAC alive?
> 
> So logically, F-60 has no real adv against potential naval version J-20 except some minor experiences of making J-15 which can be shared by J-20 since both CAC and SAC are under AVIC, no?
> 
> The most practical way, to follow the logic, is thus to have two 5th gen only: J-20(&its naval version...hence lower cost via economy of scales), and some F-60 for PLAAF perhaps? Dunno who is pupu, but sorry I don't agree with him.


did you read the link I posted? if you did, and you'd know most members there were dissagreeing with PuPu...

the state did not found SAC's 5th gen fighter, since they lost the project to CAC during the concept stage````

it is said that SAC put money themselves to keep the project going, while changed their strategy which is to choose mature platform and equipments to make F-60 rather like high risk CAC's J-20, too many new concepts and techs involved, and mentioned the price is quite high`!

for the financial feasibility, SAC has to make sure that F-60 will make some money (domestically and internationally)..and this is probably how they sized up the current situation:
1. for domestic reason, CAC's J-20 is too big and heavy (max load wieght 40t) for AC, so in order to win PLAN deals they have to reduce the size and wieght of J-20, it is more likely to develop a new plane, because any changes to the areodynamics can affect the flying charactors in great deal, 

and since CAC are too much engaged with J-10B and its future developments, J-20 and strategic UAV, so it constraints CAC's manpower and financial availability to do so.

2. on the international stage, the only feasible 5th gen fighter is F-35, which is over priced and has too many fancy stuffs that lots of small and developing countries dont really need, and also it has too many strings attached when doing businesses with U.S. in terms of T-50, SAC has long tradition of dealing with russia equipments, and it seems that they do not highly value T-50, there are reasons that we do not know`(could be avionics, price or project completion time)`!!

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## cirr

The &#8220;F-60" convoy video clip&#65306;

http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XNDIxMTkwNTg4/v.swf

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## April.lyrics

cirr said:


> The F-60" convoy video clip&#65306;
> 
> http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XNDIxMTkwNTg4/v.swf




such a high security level suggests it should be a 5th gen fighter

and the complain words at the end of this video is quite funny...."such silly little thing wastes us so much time."

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## cirr

April.lyrics said:


> such a high security level suggests it should be a 5th gen fighter
> 
> and the complain words at the end of this video is quite funny...."such silly little thing wastes us so much time."



Little thing it is compared with what SAC is gonna come up with next&#12290;

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## yjs14

cirr said:


> The &#8220;F-60" convoy video clip&#65306;
> 
> http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XNDIxMTkwNTg4/v.swf



Youtube please!

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## siegecrossbow

Hu Songshan said:


> Sticky for this is soon.



If this turns out to be how the aircraft actually looks I suggest that the plane should adapt the nick-name "sino-raptor". Looks a lot closer to the F-22 than the F-35, which is in the same class.

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## Donatello

Esc8781 said:


> Being more advance than the j-20 the f-35 will eat the 100 j-20s because it can jam its radar and so on. You really think the f-35 is garbage huh? Please search up its avionics it will eat the j-20.



A bigger question is...if your mentioned scenario will ever happen...i mean...does USA has guts to take on China like that?


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## no_name

siegecrossbow said:


> If this turns out to be how the aircraft actually looks I suggest that the plane should adapt the nick-name "sino-raptor". Looks a lot closer to the F-22 than the F-35, which is in the same class.



It has elements resembling both.

May I suggest "Lightning Raptor"

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## rcrmj

no_name said:


> It has elements resembling both.
> 
> May I suggest "Lightning Raptor"


They already gave a funny nick name for F60 in Chinese forums..
It's called &#31933;&#23376;, zongzi, means 'sticky rice dumpling'

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## April.lyrics

&#31933;&#23376; or zongzi










people call it zongzi because it appeared on internet around dragon-boat festival(Duanwu Festival or &#31471;&#21320;&#33410,on which people eat zongzi to celebrate it.besides it was packed like a zongzi.

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## lmjiao

Sac F-60 in PAF color

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## no_name

April.lyrics said:


> &#31933;&#23376; or zongzi
> 
> people call it zongzi because it appeared on internet around dragon-boat festival(Duanwu Festival or &#31471;&#21320;&#33410,on which people eat zongzi to celebrate it.besides it was packed like a zongzi.



Too bad China doesn't really celebrate Christmas, or Halloween. 

Imagine what the package could be like 

And you are going to have Santa Claus on a platform at the front of the convoy...'Ho! Ho! Ho!...Merry...'


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## sms

no_name said:


> Too bad China doesn't really celebrate Christmas, or Halloween.
> 
> Imagine what the package could be like
> 
> And you are going to have Santa Claus on a platform at the front of the convoy...'Ho! Ho! Ho!...Merry...'



Not true... visit any Chinese City during Christmas... you'll be surprised by decoration/ sales offers by those cities and will definitely confused are you in China or west 

Theer are certain things you can always about any country and China is not an excepetion.


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## yjs14

sms said:


> Not true... visit any Chinese City during Christmas... you'll be surprised by decoration/ sales offers by those cities and will definitely confused are you in China or west
> 
> Theer are certain things you can always about any country and China is not an excepetion.



It's just a reason for date. NO celebrate~


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## ChineseLuver

*SAC F-60 conceptual design*

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## Speeder 2

no_name said:


> It has elements resembling both.
> 
> May I suggest "Lightning Raptor"



nahh, don't always cory the west, moreover raptor sounds too pre-school to me, sort of "spiderman" thing...


say Slient Zongzi? Introvert Zongzi? Zongzi International? Furious Zongzi ? 

or just Blizzard Panda? 


,

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## lmjiao




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## Speeder 2



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## mil-avia

*SAC 5th generation stealth fighter of PAF image.*


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## Sasquatch

PAF

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## eachus

US has 2, 
China plans 2,
Russia likely has 1, weak in stealthy measurement. 

==========
other countries


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## Akasa

eachus said:


> US has 2,
> China plans 2,
> Russia likely has 1, weak in stealthy measurement.
> 
> ==========
> other countries



Incorrect; US has five (YF-20, F-22, YF-23, X-35, F-35), China has four (J-20, J-21, J-2X, J-XX), Russia has two (T-50, LMFS), India has one (MCA), South korea has one (KFX), Turkey has one (TFX), and Japan has one (ATDX)


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## amalakas

eachus said:


> US has 2,
> China plans 2,
> Russia likely has 1, weak in stealthy measurement.
> 
> ==========
> other countries




In a couple of years, when the aircraft have gone past development into initial low-rate production, I am willing to bet a very large number of people will be surprised by how good the VLO of the T-50 is. 

we'll see....


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## eachus

a master of artist oil painter at the beginning should show its outstanding skills. If a guy almost finished the oil painting suddenly found number of big mistakes on the drawing, I will not continue to watch and will not pay for that art.

same reason, look at the T50. the most important measurement of the front RCS, T50 is so poor. without a complete redesign, the same Russian team is hopeless to improve that fighter.


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## Sasquatch

Speeder 2 said:


>



Just saw this one recently.

another

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## Nishan_101

Speeder 2 said:


>


 
Nothing can come close to this. Wow!!!



Hu Songshan said:


> PAF


 
Yeah! this might be just a dream.


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## SpArK

The fighter looks cool and lethal than J-20.


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## no_name

Paint job does makes a lot of difference.

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## amalakas

eachus said:


> a master of artist oil painter at the beginning should show its outstanding skills. If a guy almost finished the oil painting suddenly found number of big mistakes on the drawing, I will not continue to watch and will not pay for that art.
> 
> same reason, look at the T50. the most important measurement of the front RCS, T50 is so poor. without a complete redesign, the same Russian team is hopeless to improve that fighter.



This thread is not about the T-50. It is about the likely new chinese LO fighter, which is good news. 

If however you like to contemplate something, I'll tell you that there is a sufficient number of evidence that suggests the russians know what they are doing.


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## Black Widow

eachus said:


> US has 2,
> China plans 2,
> Russia likely has 1, weak in stealthy measurement.
> 
> ==========
> other countries



I have 1, wanna see it???


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## Peaceful Civilian

no_name said:


> Paint job does makes a lot of difference.


Indeed!!
Specially, RAM coating and Stealth paint coating


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## kurup

April.lyrics said:


> LCA&#65311;(10 characters patch==10 characters patch)





SamranAli said:


> LCA the worlds first 6th gen fighter...



This thread is about SAC 5G aircraft .........Discuss about it rather than turning it to a troll fest .........

There are many other threads to troll ..........


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## eachus

amalakas said:


> This thread is not about the T-50. It is about the likely new chinese LO fighter, which is good news.
> 
> If however you like to contemplate something, I'll tell you that there is a sufficient number of evidence that suggests the russians know what they are doing.



It was you bring up the 50. stealthy or not was discussed on other thread, dont wast time here to argue again. 

Anyway, it is a 2nd 5G fighter Chinese developed, China has 2, US has 2, Russia has 1. Indian has O, an O. you can claim Indian has a 3G LCA, it is true.

the FC1/JF-16 took 3 years to develop, if SAC J21 takes 3 years, 
it will soon on Chinese 1st AC. in 2015 or 2016.

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## Speeder 2

OKE, I was searching for some new F-60 info and responses from varies www forums, before I happened to notice this entry from Bharat Rakshak (Consortium of Indian Defence Websites & Associated Dimwits, of course) , regarding Chinese and Indian millitary procument styles on relation to aviation particularly. I therefore can&#8217;t resist the urge re-posting some key posts as the following for your entertainment:


* From Johann : *



> Hi Karan,
> 
> Would be interested to hear more about the kind of offsets offered to Chinese aviation industry.
> 
> What the report made clear was that the Chinese push towards making its more defense conglomerates more competitive, more commercial, and more managerially autonomous both from the PLA and the Ministry and making bidding for weapons contracts more competitive has paid dividends by changing corporate culture.
> 
> For whatever reason AVIC and the aviation industry in general seems more insulated from these changes and these pressures. Offsets are a start, but theyre not enough yet thankfully. AVIC itself, especially its core activities doesnt seem to be under pressure to be commercially profitable.
> 
> I don't know how much the PLAAF has to do with this - its possible that they're just the bottom of the pile after the 2nd Arty, PLA and PLAN, and so arent able to generate the right pressures on AVIC etc. They just haven't invested in the same way in the full spectrum of air power as they have for example with naval power. I would even say the PLAAF has never recovered since Lin Biao died in 1971 after his attempted coup against Mao.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *From Karan M * :
> 
> Hi Johann,
> 
> Many western reports are often a curious combination of patronising claims and outright alarmism. I haven't read the one you cite, but one theme seems common in many of these. When the nation is rising, they ignore it. Or they ignore the trend itself as it is politically inconvenient and rocks the boat. Later, they wake up and suddenly act as if they discovered it. Then they get alarmed.
> 
> Anyways, unlike India, which realized the values of offsets rather late in the day, and has had all sorts of self proclaimed experts oppose the concept on 2 grounds (more costs get baked in, and PSUs will take it all etc)..China picked up on it pretty early. They have been asking for 30% of TCV offsets for a while now. Meanwhile, this occurred: Asia Times Online - News from greater China; Hong Kong and Taiwan
> Note the climb has been consistent: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b ... ina02.html
> 
> Note these are old links but indicate the scale of work done a long time back. Note the willingness to transfer the production of a rudder to China in 2005. The same fellows who belabour HAL for being a PSU and only manufacturing doors etc, don't quite get the fact that a strong state can ensure the right kind of manufacturing comes to the designated firm!
> 
> http://pra-blog.blogspot.in/2011/10/reg ... -deal.html
> 
> or..
> 
> However, it has been sourcing components from more than 35 suppliers in China, including tail sections, vertical fins and horizontal stabilisers, and operates an aircraft conversion joint venture. Mounir expected the number of suppliers to grow.
> 
> http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/09/2 ... LW20110921
> 
> Some of these PRC deals have gone through, others haven't, but what has counted is that the PRC Govt has very strongly made the case that if companies wish to survive in China, they have to localize. Its a combination of plain old coercion, backed up by compelling incentives in terms of cost sharing offers, tax breaks, subsidies etc. The end results have been that Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier all have invested heavily in China. The amount of tech., that has flowed into China is staggering.
> 
> Now a bit about AVIC - as I recall, it broke up into AVIC1 and AVIC2 and then was reorged into AVIC again, with COMAC hived off to access western technology as Chinas commercial aircraft program was suffering thanks to lack of access to western tech.
> Here too, the ARJ-91 and C919 programs have been savvily run. They have a plethora of western suppliers lined up and the PRC Govt has been insisting that for these orders to be placed, localization has to occur, namely either Chinese owned subsidiaries or rather JVs have to supply the systems. In most cases, these so called subsidiaries will be AVIC owned and as the UTC case demonstrates, in the hunt for future business, existing rules may well be given a go-by. GE was also in the news for codeveloping next generation avionics systems along with China.
> 
> The point is all these technologies are essentially dual use. The Chinese claim to be targeting Boeing and Airbus commercially, and that may well turn out to be a complete flop, but what is being transferred in terms of quality manufacturing, quality control measures, state of the art equipment and training for labor, will directly translate to the sort of stuff the J-20 needs.
> 
> What has basically worked for China is the very GOVT interventionism that this forum decries. Vivek Ahuja, one of our most informed commentators points out the structure of the Chinese aircraft industry mimics the US, well actually the competition between Shenyang and Chengdu is sort of artificial, the sort that currently exists between MiG and Sukhoi in UAC, though MiG is struggling to survive. The point is that the Chinese Govt has poured money in amounts that would stagger the average BRF member into its aerospace industry primes to keep them alive, but even so, they were struggling. What allows Factory 187 part of XIAC (to quote an apocryphal example) survive, is the orders via offsets thanks to China's billion dollar purchase of yet another Boeing tranche.
> 
> So this sort of investment has kept their factories upto date.
> 
> Now, to develop a J-20, China has to go beyond just decently competitive factories, as you well know. It needs ancillary manufacturers, the kind DRDO has struggled so painfully to develop (and which has been the entire purpose of the LCA). These have been helped by the Chinese commercial industry boom, I'm afraid. For instance, a company that makes networking equipment for Huawei, or some other Chinese firm, can move into adjacent electronics equipment and end up supplying to LETRI or one more of the eponymous acronym firms.
> 
> The move to mil standard production has been helped immeasurably, in my opinion, by two players - Israel and Europe. China's current move to AESA, which basically makes them actually a threat to US VLO supremacy, is directly the result of Israel, which basically showed them how to a)make AESA modules b) produce them at quality in numbers and c) test them - this was in an interview at Chinadef,mashup with an interview with the Chinese designers.
> 
> Similarly, the use of software packages like CATIA from Dassault bypasses the entire business of purpose designed simulation-design-development-engineering-manufacturing packages that were hitherto the secret sauce for US/Western efforts during the Cold War. The availability of both indigenous foundries also means that the PRC can churn out custom gear at limited volumes.
> 
> The other story is that of Russia. Its been my belief based on some digging around, that Russia pretty much kept its MIC running on the back of contracts for Chinese industry. They, in a very mercantile way ensured that as long as the price was right, the Chinese got whatever they wanted. 1 Gen behind whatever USSR had in the labs or was next to ready. The massive rise from where the PRC was in the 1980's to where it rose by ~2000, cannot be explained by own work - the Indian example, and that of many nations shows it takes pretty much 3 decades + to mature own technology. The PRC just skipped a decade on the back of Russian expat labour & ctrl+c and ctrl+v design work.
> 
> I wouldnt be in the least surprised if Russian institutes played a huge role in the design of the J-20 as well, handling everything from design contracts for RCS reduction, to supplying materials and subsystems. We know the engines are Russian now.
> 
> Now, where they lack is simply the complex interplay of design-materials-experience that is jet engine manufacture. This is something the Russians have resolutely refused to give them.
> 
> Here there approach has been twofold - buy whatever is available from the Russians, and spend like there is no tomorrow on local programs, with somewhat lackluster results till date. Mind you, the big difference between India and China is this, the Govt interventionism again, in terms of fiscal support.
> 
> People may recall the Kaveri flying on a Gromov Il-76. Well, the Chinese, a few years back, purchased one of these custom made Il-76's. Their huge investment in research and infrastructure facilities dwarfs that of most places worldwide, and eerily mimics the manner in which the Europeans, US, Russians built up during the Cold War.
> 
> My point is overall, their approach can be bucketed into four methods:
> 1. Keep overall control with AVIC etc, the state rules supreme- no matter how inefficient, feed them offset programs and lavish funding to keep the entire apparatus alive. Degree of vertical integration is remarkable. Very inefficient from the ROI point of view but also allows for massive resources on scale, available. Somewhat like the bench system employed by the Indian software industry.
> 
> 2. Develop local ancillary industries to supply to AVIC et al. Offset programs percolate but so does funding via flagship programs like the J-10. While a state owned firm may make the avionics, modules and harnesses come from private vendors.
> 
> 3. International cooperation wherever and whenever possible.
> Ignore IP, beg borrow and steal - self evident here
> Cooperate with Russia, Israel (now stopped by the US which basically built the modern Israeli industry by transferring tech and knowhow from umpteen programs of the 80's and 90's in many cases the losing bids domestically) and Europe. Cases in point, engines from Europe, an entire series of naval systems from France and even the Crotale SAMs reverse engineered later on, the codevelopment of the HQ-9 with Russia..
> 
> What they have done with the Su-27 is somewhat similar to our work with Project Devil in the 70's..its a one to one copy outside, but within, all new, domestic systems. Of course, our issue was the SA-2 was already obsolete, in their case, the Flankers basic systems worked well, so I'd wager with Ukrainian assistance, they reverse engineered a lot more and only changed stuff like the mission avionics, FBW etc.
> 
> 4. Invest, invest, invest.
> 
> This is most evident in their remarkable investments in infrastructure. Spread out all over China, often replicated, and wastefully so. The point is very simple, this is a country with megalomaniacal super power ambitions, and since military strength is the currency of power, it is willing to do whatever it takes.
> 
> Now the million $ question is, how much of this is actually at first world standards. And by first world standards, lets face it, war is organized brutality, and nothing beats the first world in killing first, oft giving it a humane spin.
> 
> Looking at India:
> Now India inherited the manpower intensive training process from the British, and over time, owned it and then improved on it/localized it to actually not just train soldiers on its own but have them operate as part of a larger system attuned to local needs. Over the past two decades, despite the bellyaching of this very same group which ignored its own history (i.e. the birth pangs pre-1962 and the hard won success beyond), the Indian MIC has also slowly transitioned into one which can provide reasonably modern systems in most cases. What is now expected is to provide cutting edge systems on par with the best of what international consortiums provide. This is the challenge being faced head on, and which is why a Tejas MK1 is only ordered in 40 units despite being a worthy replacement of the Bison & useful. Compromises will not be made, and hence a Tejas MK2 is required. This is where India differs from say the PLAAF.
> 
> In China - the book, "Poorly made in China", shows the rampant quality fade that is the bane of Chinese made goods. The author became so paranoid that by the end of his tenure with a Chinese cosmetics firm, he had stopped using soap and other stuff, in his own life, seeing the stuff the Chinese did to adulterate it.
> A recent article in Foreign Policy, mentions the rampant corruption that is there in the Chinese military as well.
> 
> Bottomline, I expect that while their stuff will work, they are nowhere near the ability of the west or russians yet, in terms of integrated platforms. The sort that India is buying in the Rafale for instance, and which will become the de facto standard for the AMCA to beat. The kind that India will operate in the FGFA for instance, whose performance will dwarf the Su-35, which aircraft China can still not build on its own.
> 
> My take is that for India to compete with China, it has to follow its own path.
> 
> 1. Reinforce Success - this means to scale up DRDO and the SME approach. What works, works. More investments into AMCA, proper funding on a timely basis to make the Kaveri family become a reality, fund DRDO to get whatever infrastructure it requires for test and for high end items. A foundry for instance, even if process wise it is at current tech., and not next generation. Unfortunately, all this takes vision and commitment at the MOD level and the GOI level. To expect the current UPA Govt. which is amongst the worst administrators to ever run this country, to show this kind of commitment of course is asking for the impossible. But one can hope. DRDO is basically the single tech generator in India and balances out the lack of corporate R&D spend in India. Its capabilities are unique and must be carefully husbanded. Its like a combination of Thales, Safran and MBDA all in one. Which means enormous synergies in terms of weapons development and leveraging common technologies and modules. Which is what allows DRDO to develop a Prithvi, and then a BMD system reconfiguring a Prithvi as a target missile, and then work on radars leveraging work from its BMD program. More SMEs the better. SEZs dedicated to SMEs are also a good idea.
> 
> 2. Open up manufacturing to private players. Thanks to the TATRA fiasco, this has finally happened. But it must be carefully husbanded. There are reportedly 180 make projects in the pipeline (for make projects, the local company is funded to the tune of 80% of the project by the MOD for prototypes and development, and it has to demonstrate a product which is at least 30% indigenous, presumably by value, the beancounters delight). This is excellent news. India's biggest weakness is its OFB and weakness in basics like quality small arms production, ammunition, artillery etc. Many firms are required.
> http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/06/f ... -ficv.html
> http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/04/p ... ucial.html
> 
> 3. Safeguard offsets and do not dilute FDI. Both play into the hands of foreign OEMs which want complete ownership of their technology transfer and continue to fob off hand me down tech to India. As the Chinese example shows, a strong spine and consistent national message ensures that the vendor will meet Indian national aspirations. Given India is not a rogue proliferator, and has been overly concerned with protecting IP and not even reverse engineering, this is small fry. A FDI cap of 26-49% is perfectly fine. No nation grew up by outsourcing its weapons development to local subsidiaries of foreign powers, especially if that nation like India is not a member of a bloc like NATO and wishes to remain non aligned. Again, these offsets etc can feed into SMEs. and large players.
> 
> 4. Start National Groups or Commissions for Aeronautics, Land Systems and others, which ensure user participation and commitment. Both coordination and resource allocation of prime national projects - like the LCA, Arjun etc must rest or be vetted by such groups. Transparency breeds competence, competence breeds confidence, confidence will give results. And neither the user nor manufacturer can leave the designer in the lurch based on own priorities. All will be on same page.
> 
> 5. International cooperation, wherever possible in a speedy manner. But each must be tied to either stringent offsets or tech transfer or local coproduction, or exports. Tangible benefits. Just reducing Time to market and giving the Indian Armed forces a product on time, budget is not enough. More should be expected.
> 
> Finally, from the Armed forces end, we have to speed up procurement procedures as well. Theres little point in deciding on a Rafale and then taking 2 years to sign the contract. Or taking five years to join the FGFA. etc.
> 
> Based on 1-5, I think we can outcompete and outfight China.
> 
> The Chinese have relied too much on state driven interventionism to sustain massive institutions. Saying they compete is all very well, but at what cost? I'd rather India run a lean machine, which is driven by business and economics.




The crowd went crazy after this Guru Class Spin : 

*From Acharya: *
Great post 


*From Victor: *



> Karan, thanks for that excellent, comprehensive writeup.




*From Ashi: *



> To summarize Karan's looong post:
> 
> 1) Made in China is low quality
> 2) China buying all of her advance military technology from RU and Israel, including J-20 and AESA. China is mainly doing ctrl-c and ctrl-v work
> 3) Even China buying her military technology, those stuff will only work but won't work great. J-20 no match for AMCA.
> 4) India has high standard unlike China, that's why Tejas MK1 is not inducted yet. India MIC has provided reasonable modern systems in the last two decades.
> 5) India will outcompete and outfight China. Don't worry, have curry! .





*From kmkraoind: *



> The summary of Karan's brilliant post:
> 
> 1. China is good at low tech and outdated systems like aircraft trainers and 60-70s era planes and tanks, and even good at mass producing them.
> 2. China has luxury of using dual-use technology, since it is a mass producer, and even good at copying and/or spying.
> 3. Yes and no, while China proudly exports a degraded copy of S-300 (HQ-9), it will still imports updated versions of S-300 MPU and S-400. J-20 is definitely no match for FGFA.
> 4. China is good at mass production of outdated equipment (which it sells cheaply to African and to its Asian friends), India is good at integrating best of all worlds, Indian-European-Isreal-Russian.
> 5. At present it can hold on China, but in future if we get a monolithic political/military power like CPC definitely we can outfight.




*From Wong: *



> Couple quick observations for Karan from the Chinese perspective.
> 
> 1. There is no economics in the research and development for military programs. The only difference between Lockheed Martin and AVIC is private profit-public loss vs. public/state profit-public/state loss. The cost-plus 15% guarantees Lockheed will make money every time regardless of delays or huge overruns. General Dynamics still made money from huge failures like the Crusader and the Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle. And the F-35 could be delayed another decade and Lockheed will still make plenty of money on the program for its shareholders.
> 
> 2. The Indian system is really the worst of both worlds. Invest huge sums in an indigenous program and then eventually import it from foreign defense companies anyway. The list is huge, but all the jet and basic trainers is but one example.
> 
> 3. The arms embargo has been the best thing to ever happen to the Chinese defense industry. I hope it stays for another decade.
> 
> 4. The Chinese space program was founded by Hsue-shen Tsien, the co-founder of JPL. He was one of the original guys that debriefed von Braun, so China got its start in the space program the same as the Soviets and Americans.




* ( At this time, I&#8217;d like to register an account there to reply this post of Wong yet second thought, those Hindus probably would go nuts and ban me immediately out of sheer respect&#8230; So I&#8217;d like to compliment Mr. Wong and give my response to his post right here in PDF instead:

1. IQ

2. IQ

3. IQ

4. errrr&#8230;.IQ ) **
*


*Then Karan M went ballistic on Wong with his second part of 8,000-word autography of Shining India, Dimming China, which I skip here for the sake of sanity: *




Then Wong&#8217;s deadly short gun response:



> Karan
> 1. There was no ROI for the manhattan project. Fix price doesn't work either, think Boeing virtual fence.
> 
> 2. Dual track? Whatever. Nice spin. Pilatus and BAE thanks you for the $1 billion "dual track" for their basic trainer and jet trainer, respectively.
> 
> 3. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. CAC, SAC and XAC are working for China.
> 
> 4. China's space accomplishments from the Mao era can be found in the wiki link above.





&#8230;

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## siegecrossbow

No point to pollute this forum with more pointless ramblings.

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## sword1947

octopus said:


> This thread is about SAC 5G aircraft .........Discuss about it rather than turning it to a troll fest .........
> 
> There are many other threads to troll ..........



Relax, man. You don't have to so serious!


----------



## Sasquatch

octopus said:


> This thread is about SAC 5G aircraft .........Discuss about it rather than turning it to a troll fest .........
> 
> There are many other threads to troll ..........



taken care of.


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## Jango




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## Speeder 2

The gist of quotations was about Chinese aviation industry procurement setup, which largely explains the speed (fast or slow) and effectiveness of chunking out new fighters such as F-60, thus it&#8217;s not unrelated to the thread. It *is very closely related indeed.* 

Without understanding at such fundamental level, people, exactly like the consensus of the quoted forum, would dismiss this mysterious fighter outright as sort of L-15 variance. 

The exchange was classical: Karan M&#8217;s very typical Indian sea-size arguments (reasonably knowledgeable in the area though, yet spinning totally out of proportion nonetheless) Vs. Wong&#8217;s persistent, sharp and concise bullet point rebuttal so typical of smart Chinese guys. 

At the end of the day, there is no more accurate reflection of national average intelligence than some grand national policies such as this comprehended, set up and implemented resolutely by a huge amount of people of both the intellectual elites AND the masses across country at pretty conscious level across time.

That said, unlike many neoclassical CPC-educated Chinese as shown repeatedly on PDF, the Hindus however (perhaps thanks to strict Caste prohibitions) seem to be less keen on killing off their best and the brightest for the sake of &#8216;harmony&#8221;or &#8220;mian zi&#8221;.


----------



## Speeder 2

A newly leaked foto of F-60:





Look at that thick neck! And the wide wing span! woot:

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## cirr

This&#65311;












&#65288;Picture taken in Xi'an&#65289;


----------



## rcrmj

cirr said:


> This&#65311;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &#65288;Picture taken in Xi'an&#65289;


 
this 'sticky rice dumpling' really irratates me, why can you take-off your 'cloth'``??


----------



## cirr

rcrmj said:


> this 'sticky rice dumpling' really irratates me, why can you take-off your 'cloth'``??



so that you might have a feast for the eyes&#65311; hoho&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;not quite yet&#12290;


----------



## Sasquatch

rcrmj said:


> this 'sticky rice dumpling' really irratates me, why can you take-off your 'cloth'``??



A few more months,  so just wait.


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## Canaan

Maybe for radar testing? I.e testing the radar waves effect on the design. I dont think you can do that with a small model


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## no_name

You can to a certain extent but you'll have to scale the frequencies accordingly.

Also for smaller models the tolerance required is more strict.


----------



## waja2000

look like very sure have internal weapon bay.

new photo from china forum

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## ChineseLuver



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## homing28

wingspan 11.5m?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

&#26395;&#31070;&#33311;&#65281;&#25658;&#34527;&#40857;&#65281;&#25105;&#36744;&#20961;&#20154;&#38136;&#36745;&#29004;

&#35760;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#20891;&#21697;&#36816;&#36755; 

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&#20197;&#19978;&#36825;&#27573;&#35762;&#35805;&#26159;&#20013;&#22269;&#39134;&#26426;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#24378;&#23453;&#24179;&#25152;&#38271;&#22312;&#20891;&#21697;&#23433;&#20840;&#36816;&#36755;&#36827;&#21378;&#27426;&#36814;&#20202;&#24335;&#19978;&#20316;&#20986;&#30340;&#12290;&#35802;&#28982;&#65292;&#20316;&#20026;&#20146;&#36523;&#21442;&#19982;&#20102;&#26412;&#27425;&#36816;&#36755;&#39033;&#30446;&#30340;&#25105;&#26469;&#35828;&#65292;&#26356;&#33021;&#28145;&#21051;&#20307;&#20250;&#36825;&#20854;&#20013;&#30340;&#21547;&#20041;&#65292;&#23545;&#20110;&#25105;&#26412;&#20154;&#65292;&#26356;&#23545;&#20110;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#36825;&#20010;&#20225;&#19994;&#65292;&#37117;&#26159;&#19968;&#27425;&#21382;&#32451;&#65292;&#26356;&#26159;&#19968;&#22359;&#24110;&#21161;&#25105;&#20204;&#36808;&#21521;&#36745;&#29004;&#30340;&#22362;&#30707;&#12290;
2011&#24180;12&#26376;29&#26085;&#65292;&#24066;&#22330;&#24320;&#21457;&#37096;&#21150;&#20844;&#23460;&#36814;&#26469;&#20102;&#20004;&#20301;&#29305;&#27530;&#30340;&#23458;&#20154;&#65292;&#35199;&#39134;&#20844;&#21496;&#20027;&#20219;&#35774;&#35745;&#24072;&#19982;&#30740;&#31350;&#21592;&#65292;&#28982;&#32780;&#65292;&#24403;&#20182;&#20204;&#35828;&#26126;&#26469;&#24847;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#19981;&#31105;&#21507;&#24778;&#65292;&#19968;&#20214;&#20891;&#21697;&#38656;&#35201;&#20174;&#27784;&#39134;&#36816;&#33267;&#38414;&#33391;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#65292;&#21487;&#36135;&#29289;&#30340;&#26368;&#22823;&#23485;&#24230;&#31455;&#28982;&#36798;&#21040;&#20102;11.5&#31859;&#65292;&#21448;&#22240;&#20026;&#26159;&#32477;&#23494;&#20891;&#21697;&#65292;&#20107;&#20851;&#37325;&#22823;&#65292;&#19981;&#20801;&#35768;&#26377;&#21322;&#28857;&#38378;&#22833;&#12290;&#38754;&#23545;&#36825;&#21069;&#25152;&#26410;&#26377;&#30340;&#36816;&#36755;&#38590;&#24230;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#29369;&#35947;&#20102;&#65292;&#28982;&#32780;&#23458;&#20154;&#30340;&#19968;&#21477;&#35805;&#21364;&#28608;&#21169;&#20102;&#25105;&#20204;&#65306;&#26089;&#23601;&#21548;&#35828;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#26159;&#19968;&#21482;&#20197;&#24310;&#23433;&#31934;&#31070;&#20026;&#20225;&#19994;&#25991;&#21270;&#30340;&#29289;&#27969;&#38081;&#20891;&#65292;&#20320;&#20204;&#35201;&#26159;&#19981;&#34892;&#65292;&#37027;&#21035;&#20154;&#23601;&#27809;&#24076;&#26395;&#20102;&#12290;&#26159;&#30340;&#65292;&#22823;&#20214;&#20154;&#20160;&#20040;&#26102;&#20505;&#38754;&#23545;&#22256;&#38590;&#20302;&#36807;&#22836;&#65292;&#25361;&#25112;&#38754;&#21069;&#26381;&#36807;&#36755;&#65292;&#36825;&#20010;&#39033;&#30446;&#25105;&#20204;&#19968;&#23450;&#35201;&#20570;&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#19968;&#23450;&#33021;&#20570;&#22909;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#26263;&#19979;&#20102;&#20915;&#24515;&#12290;&#22312;&#33719;&#24471;&#20102;&#36135;&#29289;&#21442;&#25968;&#20043;&#21518;&#65292;&#24066;&#22330;&#24320;&#21457;&#37096;&#20250;&#21516;&#36816;&#36755;&#37096;&#19968;&#36215;&#23545;&#36816;&#36755;&#38590;&#24230;&#36827;&#34892;&#20102;&#20840;&#38754;&#20998;&#26512;&#65292;&#26368;&#21518;&#30830;&#35748;&#20102;&#20197;&#29436;&#29384;&#26495;&#20026;&#36733;&#36135;&#24179;&#21488;&#65292;&#36741;&#21161;&#20197;&#35199;&#39134;&#35774;&#35745;&#30340;&#28082;&#21387;&#24037;&#35013;&#21327;&#21161;&#36135;&#29289;&#29366;&#24577;&#35843;&#25972;&#30340;&#32508;&#21512;&#36816;&#36755;&#23454;&#26045;&#26041;&#26696;&#12290;
&#38543;&#30528;&#39033;&#30446;&#30340;&#21521;&#21069;&#25512;&#36827;&#65292;&#39318;&#20808;&#38754;&#20020;&#30340;&#38382;&#39064;&#26159;&#25105;&#21496;&#36710;&#36742;&#19982;&#35199;&#39134;&#28082;&#21387;&#24037;&#35013;&#30340;&#21305;&#37197;&#35843;&#35797;&#38382;&#39064;&#65292;&#20026;&#20102;&#30830;&#23450;&#36816;&#34892;&#21442;&#25968;&#65292;&#24066;&#22330;&#24320;&#21457;&#37096;&#12289;&#36816;&#36755;&#37096;&#28082;&#21387;&#38431;&#31561;&#21508;&#37096;&#38376;&#20808;&#21518;&#21069;&#24448;&#38414;&#33391;&#35199;&#39134;&#12289;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#36798;9&#27425;&#65292;&#33719;&#24471;&#20102;&#30456;&#20851;&#25216;&#26415;&#22270;&#32440;&#20197;&#21450;&#26045;&#24037;&#25216;&#26415;&#35268;&#33539;&#65292;&#25105;&#21496;&#20462;&#29702;&#21378;&#39030;&#30528;&#39640;&#28201;&#25353;&#29031;&#35201;&#27714;&#20999;&#21106;&#38050;&#26495;&#65292;&#28938;&#25509;&#25171;&#30952;&#65292;&#22312;&#26368;&#30701;&#30340;&#26102;&#38388;&#37324;&#20445;&#36136;&#20445;&#37327;&#23436;&#25104;&#20102;&#35774;&#22791;&#25913;&#36896;&#20219;&#21153;&#65292;&#20026;&#36816;&#36755;&#30340;&#39034;&#21033;&#23454;&#26045;&#25171;&#19979;&#20102;&#22362;&#23454;&#30340;&#22522;&#30784;&#65307;&#22240;&#20026;&#26159;&#32477;&#23494;&#31561;&#32423;&#20891;&#21697;&#36816;&#36755;&#65292;&#39033;&#30446;&#21442;&#19982;&#20154;&#21592;&#30340;&#36873;&#25321;&#20063;&#26159;&#37325;&#20013;&#20043;&#37325;&#65292;&#23545;&#27492;&#65292;&#36816;&#36755;&#37096;&#28082;&#21387;&#38431;&#12289;&#22823;&#36710;&#38431;&#12289;&#23567;&#36710;&#38431;&#30340;&#39046;&#23548;&#20204;&#36827;&#34892;&#20102;&#35814;&#32454;&#30340;&#20154;&#21592;&#25720;&#24213;&#65292;&#32467;&#21512;&#23454;&#38469;&#24037;&#20316;&#24773;&#20917;&#23433;&#25490;&#20154;&#21592;&#65292;&#38598;&#20013;&#36873;&#25321;&#25216;&#26415;&#36807;&#30828;&#65292;&#32426;&#24459;&#24615;&#24378;&#30340;&#19994;&#21153;&#39592;&#24178;&#21442;&#19982;&#26412;&#27425;&#39033;&#30446;&#65292;&#26368;&#32456;&#30830;&#23450;&#20102;&#20197;&#38446;&#23478;&#25996;&#20026;&#39033;&#30446;&#24635;&#25351;&#25381;&#65292;&#26446;&#21360;&#27665;&#12289;&#31398;&#23391;&#20048;&#20026;&#20027;&#36710;&#21496;&#26426;&#65292;&#21346;&#21521;&#40857;&#12289;&#26472;&#28023;&#23792;&#12289;&#24352;&#20891;&#20026;&#28082;&#21387;&#31995;&#32479;&#32500;&#25252;&#65292;&#21016;&#25402;&#36827;&#12289;&#20110;&#20826;&#26696;&#20026;&#36319;&#38543;&#20445;&#38556;&#36710;&#39550;&#39542;&#21592;&#30340;8&#20154;&#39033;&#30446;&#22242;&#38431;&#12290;
2012&#24180;6&#26376;25&#26085;&#19979;&#21320;5&#26102;&#65292;&#24403;&#36710;&#32452;&#36890;&#36807;&#21277;&#36947;&#32531;&#32531;&#39542;&#21521;&#38414;&#33391;&#25910;&#36153;&#31449;&#26102;&#65292;&#22312;&#22330;&#36814;&#25509;&#36710;&#32452;&#20975;&#26059;&#30340;&#36816;&#36755;&#37096;&#26753;&#20891;&#36132;&#37096;&#38271;&#65292;&#24066;&#22330;&#24320;&#21457;&#37096;&#21016;&#24069;&#32463;&#29702;&#37117;&#25233;&#27490;&#19981;&#20303;&#24515;&#20013;&#30340;&#28608;&#21160;&#65292;&#22859;&#21147;&#36305;&#21521;&#36710;&#32452;&#65292;&#23519;&#30475;&#24038;&#21491;&#65292;&#21069;&#21518;&#25351;&#25381;&#65292;&#20026;&#36710;&#32452;&#36890;&#36807;&#26368;&#21518;&#19968;&#36947;&#22350;&#20570;&#30528;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#21162;&#21147;&#12290;5&#26102;20&#20998;&#36710;&#32452;&#39034;&#21033;&#36890;&#36807;&#38414;&#33391;&#25910;&#36153;&#31449;&#65292;&#22312;&#20247;&#20154;&#30340;&#25252;&#36865;&#20013;&#39542;&#21521;&#26412;&#27425;&#36816;&#36755;&#30340;&#30446;&#30340;&#22320;&#65306;&#39134;&#26426;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#20027;&#35797;&#39564;&#36710;&#38388;&#12290;&#32474;&#20029;&#30340;&#28895;&#33457;&#22312;&#22825;&#31354;&#30427;&#24320;&#65292; &#27426;&#21916;&#30340;&#38829;&#28846;&#22312;&#27426;&#36814;&#20154;&#32676;&#30340;&#36523;&#26049;&#40483;&#21709;&#65292;&#36135;&#29289;&#32456;&#20110;&#8220;&#21040;&#23478;&#20102;&#8221;&#65292;&#20154;&#20204;&#19981;&#20303;&#25569;&#25163;&#65292;&#32437;&#24773;&#25317;&#25265;&#65292;&#38125;&#35760;&#36825;&#21019;&#36896;&#22855;&#36857;&#30340;&#21382;&#21490;&#26102;&#21051;&#12290;
&#32437;&#35266;&#26412;&#27425;&#36816;&#36755;&#21382;&#31243;&#65292;&#36710;&#32452;&#20174;&#20986;&#21378;&#21040;&#36135;&#29289;&#23433;&#20840;&#25269;&#36798;&#30446;&#30340;&#22320;&#65292;&#20849;&#21382;&#26102;25&#22825;&#65292;&#21069;&#26399;&#20934;&#22791;&#24037;&#20316;&#26356;&#26159;&#38271;&#36798;&#21322;&#24180;&#20043;&#20037;&#65292;&#36825;&#20854;&#20013;&#30340;&#33392;&#36763;&#27599;&#19968;&#20301;&#39033;&#30446;&#21442;&#19982;&#32773;&#19968;&#23450;&#26159;&#28145;&#26377;&#20307;&#20250;&#30340;&#65292;&#28982;&#32780;&#22240;&#20026;&#24615;&#36136;&#29305;&#27530;&#65292;&#19981;&#20250;&#26377;&#20219;&#20309;&#26377;&#20851;&#26412;&#27425;&#36816;&#36755;&#30340;&#25991;&#23383;&#35760;&#24405;&#19982;&#24433;&#20687;&#36164;&#26009;&#20445;&#30041;&#19979;&#26469;&#65292;&#21487;&#26159;&#22823;&#20214;&#20154;&#24515;&#37324;&#26126;&#30333;&#65292;&#36825;&#26080;&#24418;&#30340;&#20891;&#21151;&#31456;&#25165;&#26356;&#26174;&#29645;&#36149;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#23436;&#25104;&#20102;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#20351;&#21629;&#65292;&#20026;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#36194;&#24471;&#33635;&#35465;&#19982;&#39556;&#20658;&#65292;&#26356;&#26159;&#20026;&#31062;&#22269;&#30340;&#22269;&#38450;&#20107;&#19994;&#36129;&#29486;&#20102;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#21147;&#37327;&#65292;&#20197;&#23454;&#38469;&#34892;&#21160;&#20102;&#36341;&#34892;&#20102;&#20225;&#19994;&#36131;&#20219;&#65292;&#31038;&#20250;&#36131;&#20219;&#65292;&#27665;&#26063;&#36131;&#20219;&#30340;&#20225;&#19994;&#26381;&#21153;&#29702;&#24565;&#12290;
&#27426;&#36814;&#20202;&#24335;&#32467;&#26463;&#21518;&#65292;&#22312;&#25105;&#20204;&#21363;&#23558;&#36820;&#22238;&#35199;&#23433;&#30340;&#26102;&#20505;&#65292;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#23433;&#21521;&#19996;&#37096;&#38271;&#25569;&#30528;&#25105;&#30340;&#25163;&#65292;&#24691;&#20999;&#30340;&#23545;&#25105;&#35828;&#65306;&#23567;&#26417;&#21568;&#65292;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#20102;&#19981;&#36215;&#21568;&#65292;&#20174;&#20320;&#20204;&#21018;&#19968;&#30475;&#21040;&#36710;&#32452;&#23601;&#24536;&#25105;&#20914;&#19978;&#21435;&#36814;&#25509;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#20804;&#24351;&#36825;&#20010;&#32454;&#33410;&#23601;&#30495;&#27491;&#20307;&#29616;&#20102;&#19968;&#20010;&#20248;&#31168;&#30340;&#20225;&#19994;&#22242;&#38431;&#25152;&#24212;&#26377;&#30340;&#31934;&#31070;&#19982;&#27668;&#36136;&#65292;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#65292;&#30495;&#29275;&#65281;
&#22312;&#21019;&#36896;&#26032;&#30340;&#36229;&#23485;&#36816;&#36755;&#35760;&#24405;&#30340;&#21516;&#26102;&#27599;&#19968;&#20010;&#22823;&#20214;&#20154;&#37117;&#22312;&#29992;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#34892;&#21160;&#38203;&#36896;&#36825;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#36825;&#38754;&#38050;&#38081;&#33324;&#30340;&#26071;&#24092;&#65292;&#22312;&#20026;&#29289;&#27969;&#38081;&#20891;&#36825;&#26679;&#19968;&#25903;&#38431;&#20237;&#22859;&#26007;&#32456;&#29983;&#65281;
&#21518;&#35760;&#65306;&#22312;&#25105;&#20204;&#22238;&#21040;&#35199;&#23433;&#30340;&#31532;3&#22825;&#65292;&#39134;&#26426;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#29305;&#24847;&#36865;&#26469;&#19968;&#38754;&#38182;&#26071;&#65306;&#23613;&#23637;&#38081;&#20891;&#33521;&#23039;&#65281;&#31361;&#26174;&#24310;&#23433;&#31934;&#31070;&#65281; 

http://www.sxdajian.com/newsshow.asp?new_id=596


----------



## YouGotRouged

Silly question, but why is it being carried at an angle?


----------



## feilong

Bill_Maher said:


> Silly question, but why is it being carried at an angle?



To answer your child question, the jet is only the body nothing inside no engine ok. They can carried any angle as it only body of the jet.

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## no_name

Bill_Maher said:


> Silly question, but why is it being carried at an angle?



Making sure they could fit through all confined spaces during transport. (tunnels, road lanes etc)


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## Sasquatch




----------



## skyknight

homing28 said:


> wingspan 11.5m?
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> &#26395;&#31070;&#33311;&#65281;&#25658;&#34527;&#40857;&#65281;&#25105;&#36744;&#20961;&#20154;&#38136;&#36745;&#29004;
> 
> &#35760;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#20891;&#21697;&#36816;&#36755;
> 
> 2012&#24180;&#23545;&#20110;&#25152;&#26377;&#20013;&#22269;&#20154;&#26469;&#35828;&#27880;&#23450;&#23558;&#26159;&#19968;&#20010;&#20855;&#26377;&#29305;&#27530;&#24847;&#20041;&#30340;&#24180;&#20221;&#65292;&#31070;&#20061;&#36968;&#28216;&#22826;&#31354;&#65292;&#34527;&#40857;&#25506;&#38505;&#28145;&#28023;&#65292;&#32780;&#25105;&#20204;&#20063;&#22312;&#29992;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#26041;&#24335;&#21019;&#36896;&#30528;&#19968;&#20010;&#36335;&#19978;&#22855;&#36857;&#12290;&#24403;&#36817;12&#31859;&#23485;&#30340;&#40536;&#40560;&#36890;&#36807;&#26368;&#21518;&#19968;&#20010;&#25910;&#36153;&#31449;&#65292;&#21363;&#23558;&#21040;&#36798;&#20182;&#30340;&#26032;&#23478;&#26102;&#65292;&#25152;&#26377;&#20154;&#26080;&#19981;&#21160;&#23481;&#65292;&#25152;&#26377;&#21442;&#19982;&#26412;&#27425;&#39033;&#30446;&#30340;&#21516;&#20161;&#20204;&#37117;&#24212;&#35813;&#20026;&#20043;&#33258;&#35946;&#65292;&#24863;&#35874;&#20320;&#20204;&#65292;&#20320;&#20204;&#26159;&#26368;&#26834;&#30340;&#22242;&#38431;&#12290;&#34935;&#24515;&#30340;&#21521;&#22823;&#23478;&#36947;&#19968;&#22768;&#65306;&#20320;&#20204;&#36763;&#33510;&#20102;&#65281;
> &#20197;&#19978;&#36825;&#27573;&#35762;&#35805;&#26159;&#20013;&#22269;&#39134;&#26426;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#24378;&#23453;&#24179;&#25152;&#38271;&#22312;&#20891;&#21697;&#23433;&#20840;&#36816;&#36755;&#36827;&#21378;&#27426;&#36814;&#20202;&#24335;&#19978;&#20316;&#20986;&#30340;&#12290;&#35802;&#28982;&#65292;&#20316;&#20026;&#20146;&#36523;&#21442;&#19982;&#20102;&#26412;&#27425;&#36816;&#36755;&#39033;&#30446;&#30340;&#25105;&#26469;&#35828;&#65292;&#26356;&#33021;&#28145;&#21051;&#20307;&#20250;&#36825;&#20854;&#20013;&#30340;&#21547;&#20041;&#65292;&#23545;&#20110;&#25105;&#26412;&#20154;&#65292;&#26356;&#23545;&#20110;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#36825;&#20010;&#20225;&#19994;&#65292;&#37117;&#26159;&#19968;&#27425;&#21382;&#32451;&#65292;&#26356;&#26159;&#19968;&#22359;&#24110;&#21161;&#25105;&#20204;&#36808;&#21521;&#36745;&#29004;&#30340;&#22362;&#30707;&#12290;
> 2011&#24180;12&#26376;29&#26085;&#65292;&#24066;&#22330;&#24320;&#21457;&#37096;&#21150;&#20844;&#23460;&#36814;&#26469;&#20102;&#20004;&#20301;&#29305;&#27530;&#30340;&#23458;&#20154;&#65292;&#35199;&#39134;&#20844;&#21496;&#20027;&#20219;&#35774;&#35745;&#24072;&#19982;&#30740;&#31350;&#21592;&#65292;&#28982;&#32780;&#65292;&#24403;&#20182;&#20204;&#35828;&#26126;&#26469;&#24847;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#19981;&#31105;&#21507;&#24778;&#65292;&#19968;&#20214;&#20891;&#21697;&#38656;&#35201;&#20174;&#27784;&#39134;&#36816;&#33267;&#38414;&#33391;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#65292;&#21487;&#36135;&#29289;&#30340;&#26368;&#22823;&#23485;&#24230;&#31455;&#28982;&#36798;&#21040;&#20102;11.5&#31859;&#65292;&#21448;&#22240;&#20026;&#26159;&#32477;&#23494;&#20891;&#21697;&#65292;&#20107;&#20851;&#37325;&#22823;&#65292;&#19981;&#20801;&#35768;&#26377;&#21322;&#28857;&#38378;&#22833;&#12290;&#38754;&#23545;&#36825;&#21069;&#25152;&#26410;&#26377;&#30340;&#36816;&#36755;&#38590;&#24230;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#29369;&#35947;&#20102;&#65292;&#28982;&#32780;&#23458;&#20154;&#30340;&#19968;&#21477;&#35805;&#21364;&#28608;&#21169;&#20102;&#25105;&#20204;&#65306;&#26089;&#23601;&#21548;&#35828;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#26159;&#19968;&#21482;&#20197;&#24310;&#23433;&#31934;&#31070;&#20026;&#20225;&#19994;&#25991;&#21270;&#30340;&#29289;&#27969;&#38081;&#20891;&#65292;&#20320;&#20204;&#35201;&#26159;&#19981;&#34892;&#65292;&#37027;&#21035;&#20154;&#23601;&#27809;&#24076;&#26395;&#20102;&#12290;&#26159;&#30340;&#65292;&#22823;&#20214;&#20154;&#20160;&#20040;&#26102;&#20505;&#38754;&#23545;&#22256;&#38590;&#20302;&#36807;&#22836;&#65292;&#25361;&#25112;&#38754;&#21069;&#26381;&#36807;&#36755;&#65292;&#36825;&#20010;&#39033;&#30446;&#25105;&#20204;&#19968;&#23450;&#35201;&#20570;&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#19968;&#23450;&#33021;&#20570;&#22909;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#26263;&#19979;&#20102;&#20915;&#24515;&#12290;&#22312;&#33719;&#24471;&#20102;&#36135;&#29289;&#21442;&#25968;&#20043;&#21518;&#65292;&#24066;&#22330;&#24320;&#21457;&#37096;&#20250;&#21516;&#36816;&#36755;&#37096;&#19968;&#36215;&#23545;&#36816;&#36755;&#38590;&#24230;&#36827;&#34892;&#20102;&#20840;&#38754;&#20998;&#26512;&#65292;&#26368;&#21518;&#30830;&#35748;&#20102;&#20197;&#29436;&#29384;&#26495;&#20026;&#36733;&#36135;&#24179;&#21488;&#65292;&#36741;&#21161;&#20197;&#35199;&#39134;&#35774;&#35745;&#30340;&#28082;&#21387;&#24037;&#35013;&#21327;&#21161;&#36135;&#29289;&#29366;&#24577;&#35843;&#25972;&#30340;&#32508;&#21512;&#36816;&#36755;&#23454;&#26045;&#26041;&#26696;&#12290;
> &#38543;&#30528;&#39033;&#30446;&#30340;&#21521;&#21069;&#25512;&#36827;&#65292;&#39318;&#20808;&#38754;&#20020;&#30340;&#38382;&#39064;&#26159;&#25105;&#21496;&#36710;&#36742;&#19982;&#35199;&#39134;&#28082;&#21387;&#24037;&#35013;&#30340;&#21305;&#37197;&#35843;&#35797;&#38382;&#39064;&#65292;&#20026;&#20102;&#30830;&#23450;&#36816;&#34892;&#21442;&#25968;&#65292;&#24066;&#22330;&#24320;&#21457;&#37096;&#12289;&#36816;&#36755;&#37096;&#28082;&#21387;&#38431;&#31561;&#21508;&#37096;&#38376;&#20808;&#21518;&#21069;&#24448;&#38414;&#33391;&#35199;&#39134;&#12289;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#36798;9&#27425;&#65292;&#33719;&#24471;&#20102;&#30456;&#20851;&#25216;&#26415;&#22270;&#32440;&#20197;&#21450;&#26045;&#24037;&#25216;&#26415;&#35268;&#33539;&#65292;&#25105;&#21496;&#20462;&#29702;&#21378;&#39030;&#30528;&#39640;&#28201;&#25353;&#29031;&#35201;&#27714;&#20999;&#21106;&#38050;&#26495;&#65292;&#28938;&#25509;&#25171;&#30952;&#65292;&#22312;&#26368;&#30701;&#30340;&#26102;&#38388;&#37324;&#20445;&#36136;&#20445;&#37327;&#23436;&#25104;&#20102;&#35774;&#22791;&#25913;&#36896;&#20219;&#21153;&#65292;&#20026;&#36816;&#36755;&#30340;&#39034;&#21033;&#23454;&#26045;&#25171;&#19979;&#20102;&#22362;&#23454;&#30340;&#22522;&#30784;&#65307;&#22240;&#20026;&#26159;&#32477;&#23494;&#31561;&#32423;&#20891;&#21697;&#36816;&#36755;&#65292;&#39033;&#30446;&#21442;&#19982;&#20154;&#21592;&#30340;&#36873;&#25321;&#20063;&#26159;&#37325;&#20013;&#20043;&#37325;&#65292;&#23545;&#27492;&#65292;&#36816;&#36755;&#37096;&#28082;&#21387;&#38431;&#12289;&#22823;&#36710;&#38431;&#12289;&#23567;&#36710;&#38431;&#30340;&#39046;&#23548;&#20204;&#36827;&#34892;&#20102;&#35814;&#32454;&#30340;&#20154;&#21592;&#25720;&#24213;&#65292;&#32467;&#21512;&#23454;&#38469;&#24037;&#20316;&#24773;&#20917;&#23433;&#25490;&#20154;&#21592;&#65292;&#38598;&#20013;&#36873;&#25321;&#25216;&#26415;&#36807;&#30828;&#65292;&#32426;&#24459;&#24615;&#24378;&#30340;&#19994;&#21153;&#39592;&#24178;&#21442;&#19982;&#26412;&#27425;&#39033;&#30446;&#65292;&#26368;&#32456;&#30830;&#23450;&#20102;&#20197;&#38446;&#23478;&#25996;&#20026;&#39033;&#30446;&#24635;&#25351;&#25381;&#65292;&#26446;&#21360;&#27665;&#12289;&#31398;&#23391;&#20048;&#20026;&#20027;&#36710;&#21496;&#26426;&#65292;&#21346;&#21521;&#40857;&#12289;&#26472;&#28023;&#23792;&#12289;&#24352;&#20891;&#20026;&#28082;&#21387;&#31995;&#32479;&#32500;&#25252;&#65292;&#21016;&#25402;&#36827;&#12289;&#20110;&#20826;&#26696;&#20026;&#36319;&#38543;&#20445;&#38556;&#36710;&#39550;&#39542;&#21592;&#30340;8&#20154;&#39033;&#30446;&#22242;&#38431;&#12290;
> 2012&#24180;6&#26376;25&#26085;&#19979;&#21320;5&#26102;&#65292;&#24403;&#36710;&#32452;&#36890;&#36807;&#21277;&#36947;&#32531;&#32531;&#39542;&#21521;&#38414;&#33391;&#25910;&#36153;&#31449;&#26102;&#65292;&#22312;&#22330;&#36814;&#25509;&#36710;&#32452;&#20975;&#26059;&#30340;&#36816;&#36755;&#37096;&#26753;&#20891;&#36132;&#37096;&#38271;&#65292;&#24066;&#22330;&#24320;&#21457;&#37096;&#21016;&#24069;&#32463;&#29702;&#37117;&#25233;&#27490;&#19981;&#20303;&#24515;&#20013;&#30340;&#28608;&#21160;&#65292;&#22859;&#21147;&#36305;&#21521;&#36710;&#32452;&#65292;&#23519;&#30475;&#24038;&#21491;&#65292;&#21069;&#21518;&#25351;&#25381;&#65292;&#20026;&#36710;&#32452;&#36890;&#36807;&#26368;&#21518;&#19968;&#36947;&#22350;&#20570;&#30528;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#21162;&#21147;&#12290;5&#26102;20&#20998;&#36710;&#32452;&#39034;&#21033;&#36890;&#36807;&#38414;&#33391;&#25910;&#36153;&#31449;&#65292;&#22312;&#20247;&#20154;&#30340;&#25252;&#36865;&#20013;&#39542;&#21521;&#26412;&#27425;&#36816;&#36755;&#30340;&#30446;&#30340;&#22320;&#65306;&#39134;&#26426;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#20027;&#35797;&#39564;&#36710;&#38388;&#12290;&#32474;&#20029;&#30340;&#28895;&#33457;&#22312;&#22825;&#31354;&#30427;&#24320;&#65292; &#27426;&#21916;&#30340;&#38829;&#28846;&#22312;&#27426;&#36814;&#20154;&#32676;&#30340;&#36523;&#26049;&#40483;&#21709;&#65292;&#36135;&#29289;&#32456;&#20110;&#21040;&#23478;&#20102;&#65292;&#20154;&#20204;&#19981;&#20303;&#25569;&#25163;&#65292;&#32437;&#24773;&#25317;&#25265;&#65292;&#38125;&#35760;&#36825;&#21019;&#36896;&#22855;&#36857;&#30340;&#21382;&#21490;&#26102;&#21051;&#12290;
> &#32437;&#35266;&#26412;&#27425;&#36816;&#36755;&#21382;&#31243;&#65292;&#36710;&#32452;&#20174;&#20986;&#21378;&#21040;&#36135;&#29289;&#23433;&#20840;&#25269;&#36798;&#30446;&#30340;&#22320;&#65292;&#20849;&#21382;&#26102;25&#22825;&#65292;&#21069;&#26399;&#20934;&#22791;&#24037;&#20316;&#26356;&#26159;&#38271;&#36798;&#21322;&#24180;&#20043;&#20037;&#65292;&#36825;&#20854;&#20013;&#30340;&#33392;&#36763;&#27599;&#19968;&#20301;&#39033;&#30446;&#21442;&#19982;&#32773;&#19968;&#23450;&#26159;&#28145;&#26377;&#20307;&#20250;&#30340;&#65292;&#28982;&#32780;&#22240;&#20026;&#24615;&#36136;&#29305;&#27530;&#65292;&#19981;&#20250;&#26377;&#20219;&#20309;&#26377;&#20851;&#26412;&#27425;&#36816;&#36755;&#30340;&#25991;&#23383;&#35760;&#24405;&#19982;&#24433;&#20687;&#36164;&#26009;&#20445;&#30041;&#19979;&#26469;&#65292;&#21487;&#26159;&#22823;&#20214;&#20154;&#24515;&#37324;&#26126;&#30333;&#65292;&#36825;&#26080;&#24418;&#30340;&#20891;&#21151;&#31456;&#25165;&#26356;&#26174;&#29645;&#36149;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#23436;&#25104;&#20102;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#20351;&#21629;&#65292;&#20026;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#36194;&#24471;&#33635;&#35465;&#19982;&#39556;&#20658;&#65292;&#26356;&#26159;&#20026;&#31062;&#22269;&#30340;&#22269;&#38450;&#20107;&#19994;&#36129;&#29486;&#20102;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#21147;&#37327;&#65292;&#20197;&#23454;&#38469;&#34892;&#21160;&#20102;&#36341;&#34892;&#20102;&#20225;&#19994;&#36131;&#20219;&#65292;&#31038;&#20250;&#36131;&#20219;&#65292;&#27665;&#26063;&#36131;&#20219;&#30340;&#20225;&#19994;&#26381;&#21153;&#29702;&#24565;&#12290;
> &#27426;&#36814;&#20202;&#24335;&#32467;&#26463;&#21518;&#65292;&#22312;&#25105;&#20204;&#21363;&#23558;&#36820;&#22238;&#35199;&#23433;&#30340;&#26102;&#20505;&#65292;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#23433;&#21521;&#19996;&#37096;&#38271;&#25569;&#30528;&#25105;&#30340;&#25163;&#65292;&#24691;&#20999;&#30340;&#23545;&#25105;&#35828;&#65306;&#23567;&#26417;&#21568;&#65292;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#20102;&#19981;&#36215;&#21568;&#65292;&#20174;&#20320;&#20204;&#21018;&#19968;&#30475;&#21040;&#36710;&#32452;&#23601;&#24536;&#25105;&#20914;&#19978;&#21435;&#36814;&#25509;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#20804;&#24351;&#36825;&#20010;&#32454;&#33410;&#23601;&#30495;&#27491;&#20307;&#29616;&#20102;&#19968;&#20010;&#20248;&#31168;&#30340;&#20225;&#19994;&#22242;&#38431;&#25152;&#24212;&#26377;&#30340;&#31934;&#31070;&#19982;&#27668;&#36136;&#65292;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#65292;&#30495;&#29275;&#65281;
> &#22312;&#21019;&#36896;&#26032;&#30340;&#36229;&#23485;&#36816;&#36755;&#35760;&#24405;&#30340;&#21516;&#26102;&#27599;&#19968;&#20010;&#22823;&#20214;&#20154;&#37117;&#22312;&#29992;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#34892;&#21160;&#38203;&#36896;&#36825;&#38485;&#35199;&#22823;&#20214;&#36825;&#38754;&#38050;&#38081;&#33324;&#30340;&#26071;&#24092;&#65292;&#22312;&#20026;&#29289;&#27969;&#38081;&#20891;&#36825;&#26679;&#19968;&#25903;&#38431;&#20237;&#22859;&#26007;&#32456;&#29983;&#65281;
> &#21518;&#35760;&#65306;&#22312;&#25105;&#20204;&#22238;&#21040;&#35199;&#23433;&#30340;&#31532;3&#22825;&#65292;&#39134;&#26426;&#24378;&#24230;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#29305;&#24847;&#36865;&#26469;&#19968;&#38754;&#38182;&#26071;&#65306;&#23613;&#23637;&#38081;&#20891;&#33521;&#23039;&#65281;&#31361;&#26174;&#24310;&#23433;&#31934;&#31070;&#65281;
> 
> ??_????


&#36817;12&#31859;&#23485;&#30340;&#40536;&#40560;
The wingspan is 11.5-12 metres, the code name of SAC 5-gen fighter is "&#40536;&#40560;"

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## cirr

Bill_Maher said:


> Silly question, but why is it being carried at an angle?



China's city streets&#12289;motorways&#12289;tunnels&#12289;bridges and toll gates may be as broad as they are long&#65292;but still can't match your imagination&#12290;


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## no_name

Looks like the truss thing that the plane is rested on were painted orange after having been placed on the truck.

Also authorities don't seem as shy of bystanders around the plane as before.


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## lcloo

The hydraulic tilting platform on which the jet is seated is movable, it can move to horizontal level for unloading of the aircraft at the destination point.


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## cirr

This is merely a signpost&#12290;What follows from the stable of SAC will be of far more interest to the Americans&#12290;

Then there are interesting stories developing/brewing in CAC and XAC&#12290;


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## Broccoli



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## April.lyrics

Broccoli said:


>



fatboy....


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## Kompromat

Broccoli said:


>


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## EagleEyes

Why they are transporting it like it is a toy. No security or proper transport system.


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## gambit

What happened to the starboard wing...???






Got clipped off in a prang during transport?


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## Broccoli

gambit said:


> What happened to the starboard wing...???



It's behind that orange box.

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## April.lyrics

WebMaster said:


> Why they are transporting it like it is a toy. No security or proper transport system.








the SUV behind it and the minivan beside it are all belong to the escort team.


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## qwerrty

mini j-20 without canard. anyone want to guess the wingspan from that front view?


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## siegecrossbow

qwerrty said:


> mini j-20 without canard. anyone want to guess the wingspan from that front view?



Semi-official numbers are around 11.5 meters.

I guess the style of the weapons bays is pretty much settled. They are probably J-20 style as opposed to F-35 style. Perhaps this bird is tailored for air-air engagements as well?


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