# The UK's EU referendum: All you need to know



## Pakistani E

*The UK's EU referendum: All you need to know*
By Brian Wheeler & Alex HuntBBC News

*




*

*What is happening?*
A referendum is being held on Thursday, 23 June to decide whether Britain should leave or remain in the European Union. This article is designed to be an easy-to-understand guide - and a chance to ask other questions, a selection of which we'll be answering at the bottom of the page.

*What is a referendum?*
A referendum is basically a vote in which everyone (or nearly everyone) of voting age can take part, normally giving a "Yes" or "No" answer to a question. Whichever side gets more than half of all votes cast is considered to have won.

*Why is a referendum being held?*
Prime Minister David Cameron promised to hold one if he won the 2015 general election, in response to growing calls from his own Conservative MPs and the UK Independence Party (UKIP), who argued that Britain had not had a say since 1975, when it voted to stay in the EU in a referendum. The EU has changed a lot since then, gaining more control over our daily lives, they argued. Mr Cameron said: "It is time for the British people to have their say. It is time to settle this European question in British politics."

*What is the European Union?*
The European Union - often known as the EU - is an economic and political partnership involving 28 European countries (click here if you want to see the full list). It began after World War Two to foster economic co-operation, with the idea that countries which trade together are more likely to avoid going to war with each other. It has since grown to become a "single market" allowing goods and people to move around, basically as if the member states were one country. It has its own currency, the euro, which is used by 19 of the member countries, its own parliament and it now sets rules in a wide range of areas - including on the environment, transport, consumer rights and even things like mobile phone charges.

*What will the referendum question be?*
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" Read more: Does the wording of a referendum question matter?

*What does Brexit mean?*
It is a word that has become used as a shorthand way of saying the UK leaving the EU - merging the words *Br*itain and *exit *to get Brexit, in a same way as a Greek exit from the EU was dubbed Grexit in the past.

*Who will be able to vote?*
British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK, along with UK nationals living abroad who have been on the electoral register in the UK in the past 15 years. Members of the House of Lords and Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar will also be eligible, unlike in a general election. Citizens from EU countries - apart from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - will not get a vote.

*How do you vote?*
It will be a similar system to that during other elections. Firstly, if you have registered to vote, you'll be sent a card telling you when voting takes place and where you should go to vote on 23 June. On that day, when you go to the polling station you will be given a piece of paper with the referendum question on it. You then go to a booth, which will have a pencil in it for your use. You then put a X in the box which reflects your choice and put the paper into a ballot box. Alternatively you will also be able to opt to vote by post. Read more: Electoral Commission's guide to applying to vote by post.

*Didn't David Cameron try and change the rules of the UK's EU membership?*
Yes. This was the big news back in January and February as David Cameron sought an agreement with other European Union leaders to change the terms of Britain's membership. He says the deal, which will take effect immediately if the UK votes to remain in the EU, gives Britain "special" status within the 28 nation club, and will help sort out some of the things British people say they don't like about the EU, such as high levels of immigration and giving up the ability to run our own affairs.

Critics say his deal will make little difference and falls well short of what he had promised when he announced his plan for a referendum. Read more: What Cameron wanted v what he got

The main points of the deal are:


*Child benefit* - Migrant workers will still be able to send child benefit payments back to to their home country - Mr Cameron had wanted to end this practice - but the payments will be set at a level reflecting the cost of living in their home country rather than the full UK rate
*Migrant welfare payments* - Mr Cameron says cutting the amount of benefits low paid workers from other EU nations can claim when they take a job in the UK will remove one of the reasons people come to Britain in such large numbers (critics say it will make little difference). He did not get the blanket ban he wanted. New arrivals will not be able to claim tax credits and other welfare payments straight away - but will gradually gain the right to more benefits the longer they stay, at a rate yet to be decided.
*Keeping the pound *- Mr Cameron has said Britain will never join the euro. He secured assurances that the eurozone countries will not discriminate against Britain for having a different currency. Any British money spent on bailing out eurozone nations that get into trouble will also be reimbursed.
*Protection for the City of London* - Safeguards for Britain's large financial services industry to prevent eurozone regulations being imposed on it
*Running its own affairs* - For the first time, there will be a clear commitment that Britain is not part of a move towards "ever closer union" with other EU member states - one of the core principles of the EU. This will be incorporated in an EU treaty change. Mr Cameron also secured a "red card" system for national parliaments making it easier for governments to band together to block unwanted legislation. If 55% of national EU parliaments object to a piece of EU legislation it will be rethought. Critics say it is not clear if this would ever be used in practice.
*Who wants the UK to leave the EU?*
The British public are fairly evenly split, according to the latest opinion polls. The UK Independence Party, which won the last European elections, and received nearly four million votes - 13% of those cast - in May's general election, campaigns for Britain's exit from the EU. About half of Conservative MPs, including five cabinet ministers, several Labour MPs and the DUP are also in favour of leaving.

*Why do they want the UK to leave?*
They believe Britain is being held back by the EU, which they say imposes too many rules on business and charges billions of pounds a year in membership fees for little in return. They also want Britain to take back full control of its borders and reduce the number of people coming here to work. One of the main principles of EU membership is "free movement", which means you don't need to get a visa to go and live in another EU country. They also object to the idea of "ever closer union" and what they see as moves towards the creation of a "United States of Europe".

*Who wants the UK to stay in the EU?*
Prime Minister David Cameron wants Britain to stay in the EU, now he has got some powers back from it. Sixteen members of his cabinet also back staying in. The Conservative Party has pledged to be neutral in the campaign - but the Labour Party, SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems are all in favour of staying in. US president Barack Obama also wants Britain to remain in the EU, as do other EU nations such as France and Germany. As mentioned above, according to polls, the British public seems pretty evenly split on the issue.

*Why do they want the UK to stay?*
Those campaigning for Britain to stay in the EU say it gets a big boost from membership - it makes selling things to other EU countries easier and, they argue, the flow of immigrants, most of whom are young and keen to work, fuels economic growth and helps pay for public services. They also believe Britain's status in the world would be damaged by leaving and that we are more secure as part of the 28 nation club, rather than going it alone.

*So would Britain be better in or out?*
It depends which way you look at it - or what you believe is important. Leaving the EU would be a big step - arguably far more important than who wins a general election - but would it set the nation free or condemn it to economic ruin? Here is a rundown of the arguments for and against.

*What about businesses?*
Big business - with a few exceptions - tends to be in favour of Britain staying in the EU because it makes it easier for them to move money, people and products around the world. BT chairman Sir Mike Rake, a recent CBI president, says there are "no credible alternatives" to staying in the EU. But others disagree, such as Lord Bamford, chairman of JCB, who says an EU exit would allow the UK to negotiate trade deals as our country "rather than being one of 28 nations". Many small and medium-sized firms would welcome a cut in red tape and what they see as petty regulations. The British Chambers of Commerce says 55% of members back staying in a reformed EU.

*What are the rules for campaigning?*
The Electoral Commission is in charge of making sure it's a fair contest. It has designated lead campaigns for both the "leave" and "remain" sides. The official campaigns - Vote Leave and Britain Stronger in Europe - get access to a grant of up to £600,000, an overall spending limit of £7m, campaign broadcasts, free mailshots and free access to meeting rooms. The Electoral Commission haspublished a guide to the rules.

*So who is leading the rival sides in the campaign?*

Britain Stronger in Europe - the main cross-party group campaigning for Britain to remain in the EU is headed by former Marks and Spencer chairman Lord Rose. It is backed by key figures from the Conservative Party, including prime minister David Cameron and Chancellor George Osborne, most Labour MPs, including party leader Jeremy Corbyn and Alan Johnson, who is running the Labour In for Britain campaign, the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru, the Alliance party and the SDLP in Northern Ireland, and the Green Party. *Who is funding the campaign:* Britain Stronger in Europe has raised £6.88m so far, boosted by two donations totalling £2.3m from the supermarket magnate and Labour peer Lord Sainsbury. Other prominent Remain donors included hedge fund manager David Harding (£750,000), businessman and Travelex founder Lloyd Dorfman (£500,000) and the Tower Limited Partnership (£500,000). Read a Who's Who guide.* Who else is campaigning to remain*: The SNP is running its own remain campaign in Scotland as it does not want to share a platform with the Conservatives. Several smaller groups have also registered to campaign.


Vote Leave - A cross-party campaign that has the backing of senior Conservatives such as Michael Gove and Boris Johnson plus a handful of Labour MPs, including Gisela Stuart and Graham Stringer, and UKIP's Douglas Carswell and Suzanne Evans, and the DUP in Northern Ireland. Former Tory chancellor Lord Lawson and SDP founder Lord Owen are also involved. It has a string of affiliated groups such as Farmers for Britain, Muslims for Britain and Out and Proud, a gay anti-EU group, aimed at building support in different communities.* Who is funding the campaign:* Vote Leave has raised £2.78m so far. Its largest supporter is businessman Patrick Barbour, who gave £500,000. Former Conservative Party treasurer Peter Cruddas gave a £350,000 donation and construction mogul Terence Adams handed over £300,000. Read a Who's Who guide. *Who else is campaigning to leave: *UKIP leader Nigel Farage is not part of Vote Leave. His party is running its own campaign. The Trade Union and Socialist Coalition is also running its own out campaign. Several smaller groups have also registered to campaign.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887


@waz Can we make this sticky, please?

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## Pakistani E

*UK voters leaning towards Brexit, Guardian poll reveals*


Phone and online survey shows a 52-48 split in favour of leaving the EU as referendum campaign gathers steam


Heather Stewart Political editor

Tuesday 31 May 2016 15.30 BSTLast modified on Wednesday 1 June 201608.02 BST
Public opinion has shifted towards the UK leaving the EU, two Guardian/ICM polls suggest as the referendum campaign picks up pace – with voters split 52% -48% in favour of Brexit, whether surveyed online or by phone.

Previous polls have tended to show voters surveyed online to be more in favour of Britain leaving the EU. But in the latest ICM research, carried out for the Guardian, both methodologies yielded the same result – a majority in favour of leaving.

“Our poll rather unhinges a few accepted orthodoxies,” said ICM’s director, Martin Boon. “It is only one poll but, in a rather unexpected reverse of polling assumptions so far, both our phone poll and our online poll are consistent on both vote intentions and on the EU referendum.”

In the phone poll of more than 1,000 adults, 45% said they favoured leaving the EU, and 42% remaining, with 13% saying they did not know. Once the “don’t knows” were excluded, that left 52% in favour of Brexit, against 48% for remain.

Using online polling, 47% said they would like to leave and 44% remain, with 9% saying they were undecided. Excluding the latter, the result was the same as the phone method – 52-48 in favour of leaving.

The result using the online method is almost unchanged, but the phone polling appears to be picking up a shift towards leaving the EU, despite a slew of warnings from the most senior members of the government about the economic risks of doing so.

When ICM carried out a poll for the Guardian in mid-May, remain had a 10 percentage point lead among those polled by phone, on 55% to 45%. The online method produced the same result as the latest one: 52% for leave compared with 48% for remain.


EU referendum: Brexit for non-Brits
This latest result is likely to alarm the Stronger In Europe campaign, which had previously taken comfort from the tendency for phone polls to deliver a pro-remain verdict.

Boon said the polling suggested there would be a healthy turnout in the referendum. Asked how likely they were to vote on 23 June, more than 60% of respondents on both methods gave a score of 10 out of 10, which he said pointed to a turnout of 60-62%.

As well as checking voters’ intentions for the referendum, ICM asked which party they would vote for. The findings were almost unchanged compared with mid-May, with the phone poll showing the Conservatives on 36%, and Labour down 2 percentage points at 32%.

Support for Ukip appeared to have picked up, perhaps aided by the prominence of the party’s leader, Nigel Farage, during the referendum campaign and the focus on immigration in the debate. The party scored 15% in the phone poll, up 2 percentage points from last time.

Gisela Stuart, the chair of Vote Leave and a Labour MP, told the Guardian recently that the party’s backing for remaining in the EU was “a recruiting agent for Ukip”.

Support for Brexit is split along class and geographical lines, according to ICM. Among skilled manual workers, known by pollsters as C2s, support for Brexit is running as high as 62%. Scotland is for remain, while voters in England and Wales would back Brexit.

_ICM Unlimited interviewed 1,004 people by phone, and 2,052 people online on 27-29 May 2016. Interviews were conducted across the country and in both cases the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-leaning-towards-brexit-guardian-poll-reveals

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## flamer84

I'm calling a victory for the "Leave" camp.

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## UKBengali

flamer84 said:


> I'm calling a victory for the "Leave" camp.



Will you be happy to go back to Romania in that case?


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## flamer84

UKBengali said:


> Will you be happy to go back to Romania in that case?



Ofcourse.It's not the end of the world.I probably won't though as I can still work here in the eventuality of an exit.It won't make much of a difference though,I'll work for fewer money at home but it's not like I'd starve or something.Paying the mortgage earlier than the next 16 years would have been nice to but it is what it is.

You think I'll throw my wife on the rail tracks like the muslim refugees in Hungary,just to stay in here ?

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## UKBengali

flamer84 said:


> Ofcourse.It's not the end of the world.I probably won't though as I can still work here in the eventuality of an exit.It won't make much of a difference though,I'll work for fewer money at home but it's not like I'd starve or something.Paying the mortgage earlier than the next 16 years would have been nice to but it is what it is.



Even if the UK leaves the EU, the chances of people like yourself being asked to leave are very low.
As long as EU immigrants do not go around committing crimes, then the UK would most probably let them stay and gain UK citizenship if they so wished.


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## flamer84

UKBengali said:


> Even if the UK leaves the EU, the chances of people like yourself being asked to leave are very low.
> As long as EU immigrants do not go around committing crimes, then the UK would most probably let them stay and gain UK citizenship if they so wished.[/QUOTE




I fail to see the UK economy surviving if she would send home all EU workers.There's a reason Lord Sainsbury threw over 2 million quid at the "Stay" campaign.

The Brits thinking they'll get 20 pounds/hour as bus drivers if the EU workers are sent packing,are living in lala land.

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## UKBengali

flamer84 said:


> I fail to see the UK economy surviving if she would send home all EU workers.There's a reason Lord Sainsbury threw over 2 million quid at the "Stay" campaign.



It will survive as long as there is a transitional period of say 5-10 years.

All that will happen is that businesses will make less profit and the UK may indeed catch up to productivity levels like
France as it would then be forced to invest in technology and worker training.


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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> @Pakistani Exile @waz @Kaptaan @UKBengali @Blue Marlin
> 
> If the UK remains in EU,doesn't that mean you'll have to abandon the £ ?
> I have read somewhere that by 2020,all the members should adopt the €.
> 
> PS : I wouldn't trust polls too much,we saw what happened during the general elections...




What? lol....We're not ready for that either.....

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## UKBengali

Vauban said:


> @Pakistani Exile @waz @Kaptaan @UKBengali @Blue Marlin
> 
> If the UK remains in EU,doesn't that mean you'll have to abandon the £ ?
> I have read somewhere that by 2020,all the members should adopt the €.
> 
> PS : I wouldn't trust polls too much,we saw what happened during the general elections...




UK was promised in the negotiations earlier this year that it would not be forced to join the Euro.

There is a real chance of UK leaving the EU as mass immigration is making it very hard for the native population to get decent jobs and housing now.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> You think I'll throw my wife on the rail tracks like the muslim refugees in Hungary,just to stay in here ?


You are really idiot if you are making fun of those refugees. You are lucky that your life is save in Romania and you have option of going back unlike those refugees


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> You are really idiot if you are making fun of those refugees. You are lucky that your life is save in Romania and you have option of going back unlike those refugees




I'm lucky that my countrymen are not f£cktards who will fight over religious beliefs like medieval peasants 500 years ago.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> I'm lucky that my countrymen are not f£cktards who will fight over religious beliefs like medieval peasants 500 years ago.


what the hell?

https://www.mercycorps.org.uk/artic...k-facts-what-you-need-know-about-syria-crisis

If you referring to ISIS then watch this 
[video]



[/video]



UKBengali said:


> Will you be happy to go back to Romania in that case?


I will be happy if shit like him sent back to where they came from so yes vote for Brexit


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> what the hell?
> 
> https://www.mercycorps.org.uk/artic...k-facts-what-you-need-know-about-syria-crisis
> 
> If you referring to ISIS then watch this
> [video]
> 
> 
> 
> [/video]




Dude,leaving conspiracy theories aside,what's happening in the ME is a direct consequence of their education and how they managed religion within society.It's Europe 400 years ago,Catholics vs Lutherans.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Dude,leaving conspiracy theories aside,what's happening in the ME is a direct consequence of their education and how they managed religion within society.It's Europe 400 years ago,Catholics vs Lutherans.


these are facts not conspiracy theories but leave all this non sense aside but least you could do is to not make fun of these people in crisis if lack empathy


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> these are facts not conspiracy theories but leave all this non sense aside but least you could do is to not make fun of these people in crisis if lack empathy




You're not in crisis when you allready left Syria.All those shenanigans and self dramas are them just acting out to reach welfare in Germany on the expense of hard working ,tax paying people.No sympathy here for such ugly behaviour.It's just theathre to fool gullible Euro liberals,they know how to act to fool simpletons in here.Not me though.


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## Pakistani E

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> these are facts not conspiracy theories but leave all this non sense aside but least you could do is to not make fun of these people in crisis if lack empathy



Dude have you seen the guy throwing his wife on the tracks? That shows some serious mental issues or the biggest drama queen. I will never make fun of someone in that situation but watching that vid of this particular incident made me angry towards that idiot. I don't know about you, but no matter how desperate I am, I will never throw my wife on the tracks like he did.There is something call dignity, there are refugees surviving in Jordan, Turkey etc too. If europeans are not accepting you then stay there, why do you have to try and hurt your wife etc just so you get to stay here?

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> You're not in crisis when you allready left Syria.All those shenanigans and self dramas are them just acting out to reach welfare in Germany on the expense of hard working ,tax paying people.No sympathy here for such ugly behaviour.It's just theathre to fool gullible Euro liberals,they know how to act to fool simpletons in here.Not me though.


You are more stupid than i thought and cannot cure your bigot mind which think only from one angle


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## Pakistani E

I am also leaning 60/40 towards Brexit.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Pakistani Exile said:


> Dude have you seen the guy throwing his wife on the tracks? That shows some serious mental issues or the biggest drama queen. I will never make fun of someone in that situation but watching that vid of this particular incident made me angry towards that idiot. I don't know about you, but no matter how desperate I am, I will never throw my wife on the tracks like he did.There is something call dignity, there are refugees surviving in Jordan, Turkey etc too. If europeans are not accepting you then stay there, why do you have to try and hurt your wife etc just so you get to stay here?


He is not only one from syria..some people might be there who are taking the advantage of this political criss but there are some genuine people whose life is in real danger and they are looking for safe and secure place

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## flamer84

Pakistani Exile said:


> Dude have you seen the guy throwing his wife on the tracks? That shows some serious mental issues or the biggest drama queen. I will never make fun of someone in that situation but watching that vid of this particular incident made me angry towards that idiot. I don't know about you, but no matter how desperate I am, I will never throw my wife on the tracks like he did.There is something call dignity, there are refugees surviving in Jordan, Turkey etc too. If europeans are not accepting you then stay there, why do you have to try and hurt your wife etc just so you get to stay here?




Funny thing was that he was in Hungary,a safe country,with shelter,food....but NOOO....let's act out and give the man a train ride to Germany!

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## Pakistani E

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> He is not only one from syria..some people might be there who are taking the advantage of this political criss but there are some genuine people whose life is in real danger and they are looking for safe and secure place



I don't disagree with you there at all. I am all for charity and compassion, but charity begins at home. Europe is already struggling due to recession and austerity, we've all seen how even in U.K there has been large scale cuts that have left the infrastructure to deal with a large influx at breaking point. I think the refugees should be housed in neighboring countries and instead a solution to the conflict be found. 

It just isn't right that you flood one particular continent with all the refugees that is already struggling due to over population and financial and social problems.

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## Vergennes

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> He is not only one from syria..some people might be there who are taking the advantage of this political criss but there are some genuine people whose life is in real danger and they are looking for safe and secure place



I am already thinking that a good soul like you has opened its doors for the poor Syrians,did you ?

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## Pakistani E

flamer84 said:


> Funny thing was that he was in Hungary,a safe country,with shelter,food....but NOOO....let's act out and give the man a train ride to Germany!



Refugees should stay in the first safe country they make it to. If they then try to migrate towards prosperous countries for hand outs they no longer remain refugees but become economic migrants, that's my personal opinion how ever, and I don't want to belittle the suffering of any people.

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## flamer84

Pakistani Exile said:


> Refugees should stay in the first safe country they make it to. If they then try to migrate towards prosperous countries for hand outs they no longer remain refugees but become economic migrants, that's my personal opinion how ever, and I don't want to belittle the suffering of any people.




That's what I've always said to.Plus,we should give money to countries like Turkey,Lebanon,Greece,Italy to house,feed them.But,also,this should apply to genuine refugees,the economic migrants should be sent back pronto.

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## Pakistani E

flamer84 said:


> That's what I've always said to.Plus,we should give money to countries like Turkey,Lebanon,Greece,Italy to house,feed them.But,also,this should apply to genuine refugees,the economic migrants should be sent back pronto.



It's interesting how even this thread became an outlet for discussion on migration which is undoubtedly the biggest concern for many British people in regards to the E.U. There is also a fear among the locals here the E.U will attempt to force U.K to accept more refugees, which is perhaps why the Leave campaign is gaining momentum.

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## flamer84

Pakistani Exile said:


> It's interesting how even this thread became an outlet for discussion on migration which is undoubtedly the biggest concern for many British people in regards to the E.U. There is also a fear among the locals here the E.U will attempt to force U.K to accept more refugees, which is perhaps why the Leave campaign is gaining momentum.



I've been in here for some 4 months.From I gather I think you Brits think that EU migrants are keeping wages to low for natives.My opinion is that these wages still make your economy competitive and leaving is not a solution but...hey! ...your country,your rules!.I'm neutral on this,I shy away from an opinion with my British aquaintances,you will decide.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Pakistani Exile said:


> I don't disagree with you there at all. I am all for charity and compassion, but charity begins at home. Europe is already struggling due to recession and austerity, we've all seen how even in U.K there has been large scale cuts that have left the infrastructure to deal with a large influx at breaking point. I think the refugees should be housed in neighboring countries and instead a solution to the conflict be found.
> 
> It just isn't right that you flood one particular continent with all the refugees that is already struggling due to over population and financial and social problems.


Why you all act as if you own Europe? Its up to leadership of Europe to decide whether they will take refugees or not . If you cannot help them then you have no right to make fun of their circumstances


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## Pakistani E

flamer84 said:


> I've been in here for some 4 months.From I gather I think you Brits think that EU migrants are keeping wages to low for natives.My opinion is that these wages still make your economy competitive and leaving is not a solution but...hey! ...your country,your rules!.I'm neutral on this,I shy away from an opinion with my British aquaintances,you will decide.



I agree with your deduction, however I think its people at the lower social ladder that are more anti E.U. It's people who have to face competition in working class jobs that usually complain about there being too many Europeans during interviews etc, that's something I have heard personally.

In regards to such a perception, I also know people who run businesses and are involved in agriculture who are desperate for the U.K to remain in E.U. My own business is considering extending to Europe so a E.U exit will definitely create more hurdles in the sector that we are involved in. 

Also I found this study that to an extent corroborates my view of class division among the Remain and Leave camps: 

"Looking at social class a majority of pro-EU voters are middle class (57% are in social classes ABC1, compared to 47% of anti-EU voters). Here the traditional turnout advantage would work the other way, middle class voters tend to be more likely to turnout at elections, and are more likely to support Britain remaining in the EU.

Pro-European voters have a higher household income, are more likely to be in work, but less likely to own their house outright. 37% of pro-EU voters have a university degree, only 15% of anti-EU voters do. All these differences are to some degree factors of age (older people grew up when fewer people went to university and house prices were lower) but in summary, younger, middle class, graduates tend to be pro-EU, older, *working class, less well educated people tend to be anti-EU."*

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/09/22/eu-referendum-state-public-opinion/

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Vauban said:


> I am already thinking that a good soul like you has opened its doors for the poor Syrians,did you ?


I will help them with all limited resources i have but even if i dont help them i will never make fun of them either


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## SMS Derfflinger

flamer84 said:


> Funny thing was that he was in Hungary,a safe country,with shelter,food....but NOOO....let's act out and give the man a train ride to Germany!



Didn`t you get the memo...everyone get a mercedes, a house, a good job and wife...

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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Why you all act as if you own Europe? Its up to leadership of Europe to decide whether they will take refugees or not . If you cannot help them then you have no right to make fun of their circumstances




Actually,it's up to the people.Currently,the leadership is hijacking European wishes.Going against the people never ended well.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Actually,it's up to the people.Currently,the leadership is hijacking European wishes.Going against the people never ended well.


no its up to their leaders who are representative of people..Its not up to every tom, dick, and harry. you are migrant in uk with no right of vote so just speak for romania


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## Pakistani E

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Why you all act as if you own Europe? Its up to leadership of Europe to decide whether they will take refugees or not . If you cannot help them then you have no right to make fun of their circumstances



I am a citizen of Europe, although I still consider myself a grateful guest. Europe does indeed belong to the Europeans just like each other countries etc belong to their respective peoples. Europeans do have the right to choose who enters and leaves their countries. It should not be up to people sitting in Brussels to decide which country gets what number of people without taking in to consideration the impact on social cohesion and financial circumstances of a given nation.

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## flamer84

Pakistani Exile said:


> I agree with your deduction, however I think its people at the lower social ladder that are more anti E.U. It's people who have to face competition in working class jobs that usually complain about there being too many Europeans during interviews etc, that's something I have heard personally.



I agree but the thing is that jobs are out there but people seem to think that if you throw EU workers out you'll get 15£/hour at Lidl instead of 8.50£ and that's just not going to happen.



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> no its up to their leaders who are representative of people..Its not up to every tom, dick, and harry. you are migrant in uk with no right of vote so just speak for romania




I can't even speak for Romania but the majority of Europeans don't want refugees.The current political class goes against the wishes of the people.Cry all you want,this is the truth.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Pakistani Exile said:


> I am a citizen of Europe, although I still consider myself a grateful guest..


when did you became citizen of Europe? did they let you in? if yes why you want to block the doors for those who are in more worse situation than you were ?


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## Pakistani E

flamer84 said:


> I agree but the thing is that jobs are out there but people seem to think that if you throw EU workers out you'll get 15£/hour at Lidl instead of 8.50£ and that's just not going to happen.



Yep, even if by some sort of gigantic mishap U.K forces E.U migrants to leave, the wages are not going to go up. Actually I was reading a study in the morning that said if the U.K leaves the E.U wages are likely to go steadily down due to a generic economic downturn.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> I can't even speak for Romania but the majority of Europeans don't want refugees.The current political class goes against the wishes of the people.Cry all you want,this is the truth.


Funny you have now became representative of people and know the intention and wish of every european..You just speak for yourself and dont think that everyone has bigot mind..again blame leaders if you think that they can go agaisnt wishes of people

Its you who need to cry as no one is listening your rants and refugees are settling in europe


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## Pakistani E

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> when did you became citizen of Europe? did they let you in? if yes why you want to block the doors for those who are in more worse situation than you were ?



I am a British citizen, U.K is a part of Europe. So by extension I am a citizen of Europe. Yes they did let me in and for that I am truly grateful and will never attempt to break rules, laws or harm my generous hosts.

I am not telling anyone to close their doors on those who genuinely need it. But a lot of these so called migrants include economic migrants, I don't blame them for trying to come here, trust me I do not hate them or make fun of them. I think many of us would do the same if we were in their shoes. I just don't think it's right to burden one people with such a large number of people with complete disregard for the wishes of the locals.

Let me reiterate, I am not telling anyone to close any doors, but if a majority of the people of Europe do not want these refugees, then their wishes should be accepted. Heck, even if Britain decides they've had enough of me and throw me out, I will not blame them. They get to decide who comes and leaves their country.

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## waz

I know what I want and the vast majority of folks want on a street level, that's out. Bye, bye EU, the UK isn't going to be your cash no more. I am all for Europe, but on our terms, and those of other states. Who f*ck do Brussels think they are?

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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Funny you have now became representative of people and know the inention and wish of every european..You just speak for yourself and dont think that everyone has bigot mind..again blame leaders if you think that they can go agaisnt wishes of people




You live in Narnia if you have the impression that the majority of Europeans want refugees in here.It's because the likes of you and other idiotic bleeding liberal hearts who spit on the majority thast the far right keeps gaining ground everywhere.It won't make me happy,but I'll be here telling you idiots a big "I told you so!" when the situation will go down south badly.And it will......

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> You live in Narnia if you have the impression that the majority of Europeans want refugees in here.It's because the likes of you and other idiotic bleeding liberal hearts who spit on the majority thast the far right keeps gaining ground everywhere.It won't make me happy,but I'll be here telling you idiots a big "I told you so!" when the situation will go down south badly.


I feel happy when i see you burning from inside as no one give a shit what this romanian migrant flmaer think about refugees ..right now UK just want to get rid of you Romanians lechers ..so yes we can vote and our vote is for brexit


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## Pakistani E

waz said:


> I know what I want and the vast majority of folks want on a street level, that's out. Bye, bye EU, the UK isn't going to be your cash no more. I am all for Europe, but on our terms, and those of other states. Who f*ck do Brussels think they are?



You want us business owners to go out of business don't you?


----------



## waz

SvenSvensonov said:


> Would you like to come be part of North American instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look how much better it is over here.



That whole thing looks like a bloody acid trip!
Anyway, if we Brexit, hello Norway want to team up?


----------



## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> I feel happy when i see you burning from inside as no one give a shit what this romanian migrant flmaer think about refugees ..right now UK just want to get rid of you Romanians lechers ..so yes we can vote and our vote is for brexit




Now you're just acting out.I realise now you lack the intelectual capacity for this discussion or even reality so I'll let you be.I'm merciful that way.

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## waz

Pakistani Exile said:


> You want us business owners to go out of business don't you?



Bro well over 90% of business owners have nothing to do with the EU. The world awaits you. Since joining this bloc our exports per head have fallen dramatically, and yes I have taken into account productivity.
Onwards and forwards.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Now you're just acting out.I realise now you lack the intelectual capacity for this discussion or even reality so I'll let you be.I'm merciful that way.


Intellectual debate is not possible with bigot mind. Is it?


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## Vergennes

waz said:


> I know what I want and the vast majority of folks want on a street level, that's out. Bye, bye EU, the UK isn't going to be your cash no more. I am all for Europe, but on our terms, and those of other states. Who f*ck do Brussels think they are?



Don't leave,I needs yours* £££*.
Gabi goings into poor if you leave.

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> Don't leave,I needs yours* £££*.
> Gabi goings into poor if you leave.




Saw it today on a "leave" add.They be givin' 50 million£ to the EU a day.That is good moneyz.......must invade...it's up to France now,no more Trafalgar I hope !

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## waz

Vauban said:


> Don't leave,I needs yours* £££*.
> Gabi goings into poor if you leave.



Man up there chap, where is the Napoleonic spirit? France will be fine, others, well that's anyone's guess.

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## Pakistani E

waz said:


> Bro well over 90% of business owners have nothing to do with the EU. The world awaits you. Since joining this bloc our exports per head have fallen dramatically, and yes I have taken into account productivity.
> Onwards and forwards.



I think it would all depend on if we can negotiate a free trade deal with Europe. Tariffs on Imports and Exports will definitely hit profits of Businesses that have a consumer base there. With all things considered, I am still leaning towards Leave but for a small business extra costs due to Tariffs have to be kept in mind.


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## waz

flamer84 said:


> Saw it today on a "leave" add.They be givin' 50 million£ to the EU a day.That is good moneyz.......must invade...it's up to France now,no more Trafalgar I hope !



Don't bring the French mate. They have recurring nightmares from this chap.











Pakistani Exile said:


> I think it would all depend on if we can negotiate a free trade deal with Europe. Tariffs on Imports and Exports will definitely hit profits of Businesses that have a consumer base there. With all things considered, I am still leaning towards Leave but for a small business extra costs due to Tariffs have to be kept in mind.



Tariffs will invite retaliation, and with our European partners have a deficit with us, they will feel the pain far more.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

@flamer84







*Number of Romanian crime suspects arrested has surged by 80% in some areas to over 18,000 nationwide *

*Across England and Wales there were 18,127 arrests of Romanians in 2015*
*Some areas such as Thames Valley saw dramatic increases from last year*
*Figures come after Romanians topped a list of foreign inmates in Britain *
By CHARLIE MOORE FOR MAILONLINE

PUBLISHED: 13:40, 29 May 2016 | UPDATED: 14:28, 29 May 2016


The number of Romanian crime suspects arrested has surged by 80 per cent in some areas to over 18,000 nationwide in the past year alone.

Shocking figures show in Thames Valley arrests of Romanians rose by 86 per cent after officers nicked 1,370 last year compared with 735 in 2014.


Wiltshire police force saw a surge of 82 per cent while West Murcia, Gloucestershire and Suffolk divisions also saw high increases.


more : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rested-surged-80-areas-18-000-nationwide.html


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## Pakistani E

waz said:


> Tariffs will invite retaliation, and with our European partners have a deficit with us, they will feel the pain far more.



Let's hope it never gets to that and European leaders do not try to punish the U.K for choosing to leave. 

Trade wars are bad for business all around.


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> @flamer84
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rested-surged-80-areas-18-000-nationwide.html




You see,that's why you're not very bright.How many Romanians or other Eastern Europeans can actually get to the UK with free travelling as opposed to Somalis,Vietnamese,Nigerians...etc? Get it now ?


----------



## waz

Pakistani Exile said:


> Let's hope it never gets to that and European leaders do not try to punish the U.K for choosing to leave.
> 
> Trade wars are bad for business all around.



Certainly will be for idiots such as Junkers who passes off veiled threats quite frequently now. We have the Commonwealth as well. 

@Brussels.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> You see,that's why you're not very bright.How many Romanians or other Eastern Europeans can actually get to the UK with free travelling as opposed to Somalis,Vietnamese...etc? Get it now ?


I posted this in support of Brexit . You guys are making it at the top only in the list of serious crimes

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> It's easy to attack a poor country when you are part of a coalition ! Seven coalitions to defeat french paysants and a corsican.




Now,now...at Trafalgar,it was you+ the Spanish against outnumbered Brits


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## waz

Vauban said:


> It's easy to attack a poor country when you are part of a coalition ! Seven coalitions to defeat french paysants and a corsican.



Oi, I'd have you know that 63% of the troops were British at Waterloo. But I have to give to you guys, balls of steel.

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## The Diplomat

So whats everyone's opinion? *In or Out?*


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> I posted this in support of Brexit . You guys are making it at the top only in the list of serious crimes




UK is virgin land for our criminals.But when someone compares us with let's say Nigerians,I'm curious what the statistics would be if Nigerians would have free travel.....same for other non Europeans....

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## waz

flamer84 said:


> Now,now...at Trafalgar,it was you+ the Spanish against outnumbered Brits



Lmao!










flamer84 said:


> UK is virgin land for our criminals.But when someone compares us with let's say Nigerians,I'm curious what the statistics would be if Nigerians would have free travel.....same for other non Europeans....



I'll have skilled Romanians please.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Now,now...at Trafalgar,it was you+ the Spanish against outnumbered Brits


To be honest i am not racist or bigot to paint every one with negative brush the way you were doing to Syrian refugees and were laughing at their suffering thats what i did not like. I personally have nothing against anyone from any race or religion. I personally like multicultural society where you get the chance to meet and work with people from different culture, religion etc. Its up to government to make laws about immigrations or to decide what they can or cannot allow.


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## waz

Vauban said:


> I was talking overall.
> -
> And it has never been a secret that those bad teeth tea addicts ruled the seas.  @waz



Hey, the teeth issue has got far better. 






As for the seas, well.

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## flamer84

waz said:


> I'll have skilled Romanians please.



With the EU you get them all: me,doctors,nurses,engineers,the beggars,the ATM fraudsters

Seriously though,if your country opts out and manages a triage afterwards for its workforce....well,power to you.

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## waz

Vauban said:


> @flamer84 @waz
> 
> PS : Nelson and Napoléon would have an heart attack seeing such beautiful pictures.



It's amazing to think they could have actually been one country had history worked out differently.



flamer84 said:


> With the EU you get them all: me,doctors,nurses,engineers,the beggars,the ATM fraudsters
> 
> Seriously though,if your country opts out and manages a triage afterwards for its workforce....well,power to you.



Dude, no EU workers are going anywhere. They will stay. Even though I'm a firm outer, I'm making sure that I campaign for families that have come from the EU, and that have set up life here, and work hard, to stay.

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> @flamer84 @waz
> 
> PS : Nelson and Napoléon would have an heart attack seeing such beautiful pictures.




They would have had a heart attack seeing you 2 rascals working together.Ofcourse,they didn't hear of Germany,in their time they were meaningless puny states.

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## SvenSvensonov

waz said:


> It's amazing to think they could have actually been one country had history worked out differently.



You're welcome, love 'Merica.








Vauban said:


> @flamer84 @waz
> 
> PS : Nelson and Napoléon would have an heart attack seeing such beautiful pictures.



Everything's smaller in Europe.






Ok not everything.

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## waz

SvenSvensonov said:


> You're welcome, love 'Merica.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything's smaller in Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok not everything.



Ah, the fourth Reich, just as I suspected, those pesky Germans. Merkel, the 23rd of June is coming for you.


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## flamer84

waz said:


> Ah, the fourth Reich, just as I suspected, those pesky Germans. Merkel, the 23rd of June is coming for you.









You make lady Palpatine sad.....

Well,atleast,now we know that the flag behind her can't burn.

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## SMS Derfflinger

What did we this time to be pesky?

By the way I hoping Brexit kicks n the balls of bruxelles.

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## waz

flamer84 said:


> You make lady Palpatine sad.....
> 
> Well,atleast,now we know that the flag behind her can't burn.



Lol@lady Palpatine. I can just see, if we vote out and her just doing this to Cameron and any other British diplomat with him.






*Angela Merkel *: "Master Cameron I take it the Brexit rebels have been destroyed. I must say you are here sooner than expected".

*David Cameron*: " In the name of the British people, we are leaving you chancellor Merkel".

*Angela Merkel *: "Are you threatening me Master Cameron"

*David Cameron*: "The EU will decide your fate"

*Angela Merkel *:"I am the EU"

*David Cameron *"Not yet"

*Angela Merkel *: "It's treason then".

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## Steve781

Immigration is an important issue but one of the few things nobody mentions is the EU's energy policy. EU regulations are forcing the closure of coal powered fire stations which are being replaced with hideous wind farms. It's quite likely this will result in blackouts soon.

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## waz

SvenSvensonov said:


> Ok true talk for a minute. I'm a part-time European (Only for about two months a year) and don't follow European politics one bit... I barely follow domestic politics.
> 
> But is the Brexit a reactionary campaign because people are angry, but haven't really thought trough the consequence of what leaving the EU would actually mean?
> 
> To me this seems a bit like the rise of that orange *sshole pretending to be a politican here in the US. People are angry of the status quo, even when it's actually not that bad, and want something different. So, out of an irrational fear of continueing the present, they vote for a radical change which, just maybe, will blow up in their faces even worse then the system they sought to replace.
> 
> Am I reading this right? Or have people actually put thought into this?
> 
> ...
> 
> Also:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know you want it.



Nah Sven, it's not reactionary, and the grassroots have been built over the past 30 years. The major split in the conservatives is evidence of this. It all goes back to the great Margret Thatcher, and her ousting by pro-Euro conservatives. The far left under Tony Benn, always thought of the EU as an attack on Britain's democracy, and the common people have been trodden on, whilst the elite enjoy the the EU show.
Who are you backing in the US?
What's a part-time European? Back to your roots young man.

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## Vergennes

Steve781 said:


> Immigration is an important issue but one of the few things nobody mentions is the EU's energy policy. EU regulations are forcing the closure of coal powered fire stations and replacing them with hideous wind farms. It's quite likely this will result in blackouts soon.



Don't worry,we can into arrangement. @SMS Derfflinger @SvenSvensonov

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## waz

SMS Derfflinger said:


> What did we this time to be pesky?
> 
> By the way I hoping Brexit kicks n the balls of bruxelles.



Ha a German is with us, Hell has frozen over today. Thanks for the support.


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## Steve781

Vauban said:


> Don't worry,we can into arrangement. @SMS Derfflinger @SvenSvensonov


France still has a nuclear industry because you were wise enough not to privatise it. We have to rely on the Chinese who will probably cram the facilities with spies.

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## SMS Derfflinger

waz said:


> Ha a German is with us, Hell has frozen over today. Thanks for the support.



I take this as compliment...

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## flamer84

Steve781 said:


> Immigration is an important issue but one of the few things nobody mentions is the EU's energy policy. EU regulations are forcing the closure of coal powered fire stations which are being replaced with hideous wind farms. It's quite likely this will result in blackouts soon.




lol...coal ? Tommorow you'd be harping about triremes for naval movement


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## waz

SMS Derfflinger said:


> I take this as compliment...



Please do, and I'm fond of the Jerrys.






Yes, I have their songs on my Iphone, and what?

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## Steve781

flamer84 said:


> lol...coal ? Tommorow you'd be harping about triremes for naval movement


Coal is still important. It's better than relying on Russia or Arab countries for gas imports. The Chinese are building a new station every week.


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## flamer84

Steve781 said:


> Coal is still important. It's better than relying on Russia or Arab countries for gas imports. The Chinese are building a new station every week.




I really don't think so.I'm the last man to be categorised as a Green but wind energy trumps coal every day.

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## SMS Derfflinger

@waz Forget Panzers...we have or at least we had Modern Talking...


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## Blue Marlin

Steve781 said:


> Immigration is an important issue but one of the few things nobody mentions is the EU's energy policy. EU regulations are forcing the closure of coal powered fire stations and replacing them with hideous wind farms. It's quite likely this will result in blackouts soon.


we need to save the polar bears!

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## flamer84

waz said:


> Please do, and I'm fond of the Jerrys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have their songs on my Iphone, and what?




I'm listening Heaven will know right now...seriously....

"When I'm done feeling blue..."

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## Steve781

Blue Marlin said:


> we need to save the polar bears!


They won't be grateful. They'll just eat us.

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## waz

SMS Derfflinger said:


> @waz Forget Panzers...we have or at least we had Modern Talking...



Dude you still have Karftwerk, I saw them play live last year. Oh man, you Germans bought efficiency into your music as well.

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## Blue Marlin

Steve781 said:


> They won't be grateful. They'll just eat us.


when they are like this then they are cute and fulffy and nice




but when they are like this then its best to back the f*ck off





besides there are in zoo enclosure so they wont eat you.







waz said:


> Dude you still have Karftwerk, I saw them play live last year. Oh man, you Germans bought efficiency into your music as well.


damn thats old.

long time no see hows life when theres exams are going

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## SMS Derfflinger

We have our little idiosyncrasies, but we have our benefits, too.


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## Blue Marlin

SvenSvensonov said:


> Cute Norwegians.


dont mind norwegians but dont tell my girlfriend.

hillary is most likely to be the democratic candidate and she is much worse than trump. i would vote trump over hillary any day. remember congress will keep him in check.
the idea of banning muslims and building a wall is a fantasy but i like sanders but thats not gonna happen


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## flamer84

Blue Marlin said:


> dont mind norwegians but dont tell my girlfriend.
> 
> hillary is most likely to be the democratic candidate and she is much worse than trump. i would vote trump over hillary any day. remember congress will keep him in check.
> the idea of banning muslims and building a wall is a fantasy but i like sanders but thats not gonna happen




Sanders is a commie,Trump is obviously retarded,Hillary is a crook.Out of 300+ million Americans these 3 it's all they got....sad....

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## Blue Marlin

flamer84 said:


> Sanders is a commie,Trump is obviously retarded,Hillary is a crook.Out of 300+ million Americans these 3 it's all they got....sad....


indeed i would go sanders, trump and clinton in that order, hillary is to malicious. but america being the country it is, it will be the other way round.


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## livingdead

BBC has done a good job in putting both sides of arguments in balanced manner. Its also doing fact checks on most claims both sides are making.


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## oprih

Britain should stay, without the eu, britain would be so irrelevant that even the economic migrants from middle east and africa won't care about it.


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## Indus Pakistan

I am 50/50 with Brexit at this point in time. However one thing that needs to be looked at. It's a sort of conundrum for me. Any big shot economists here are welcome to explain this. If EU is great for Britain because it a "open market" then can somebody explain would it not be even better if the open market was made bigger?

If I want to by a car (BMW) from Germany I can. If I want to buy some olive oil from Italy I can. If I want to buy some grapes from Spain I can. If I want to buy some meat from Denmark I can. So far so good. I can get the best products at the cheapest prices from across the open market and as a consumer I benefit. Bravo.

However if I want to buy bed linen from Pakistan I have to pay taxes or meet quota restrictions. If I want to buy Egyptian towels I have to pay taxes or meet quota restrictions. If I want to buy Maroccon leather jackets I have to pay taxes or meet quota restrictions.

In short if open market is good why is there a arbitrary fence around this common market? If this is about trade and the consumer should the world not be open market? This would not ony benefit the consumer but would create jobs in other countries thereby providing a long term solution to the migrant problem.

There was a time in 1950s when many Italian's migrated to UK for work but as EU took off the economic stabilization and the fruits of open market led to almost zeroing of migrants from Italy.This could be done to EU littoral region and that would in fact secure the future of the region.

Thoughts?

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## Vergennes

flamer84 said:


> Sanders is a commie,Trump is obviously retarded,Hillary is a crook.Out of 300+ million Americans these 3 it's all they got....sad....



What a crew. 
-
Anyway,I have seen some documentaries about the Brexit and interestingly,people were more worried about the immigration from eastern europe than africa,middle east etc. Are those eastern europeans really a big issue ? 
Of course as the conditions of immigration were made easier when they acceded to the EU,many moved to UK in hope to find a work and to have a better life,and of course.... of course.... some brought with them their criminal activities to the UK,but is that really a big issue ? They work,pay taxes,support the welfare state and the elderly ? Maybe I am wrong ? enlighten me,please.

@waz @Kaptaan @Pakistani Exile @Blue Marlin @Steve781

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> What a crew.



Don't get me started on Ted Cruz who wanted to ban dildos

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## Blue Marlin

Vauban said:


> What a crew.
> -
> Anyway,I have seen some documentaries about the Brexit and interestingly,people were more worried about the immigration from eastern europe than africa,middle east etc. Are those eastern europeans really a big issue ?
> Of course as the conditions of immigration were made easier when they acceded to the EU,many moved to UK in hope to find a work and to have a better life,and of course.... of course.... some brought with them their criminal activities to the UK,but is that really a big issue ? They work,pay taxes,support the welfare state and the elderly ? Maybe I am wrong ? enlighten me,please.
> 
> @waz @Kaptaan @Pakistani Exile @Blue Marlin @Steve781



Large number of those sit and do nothing. The rest of those are either in the building trade or open up shops that specialise in eastern European foods only. A friend of mine was reluctant to lease his shop to a Romanian but he did and its ok I guess but only eastern Europeans go there though. Also they pop out babies like they are going out of fashion. Obviously for benefits. also the Brexit campaign has been playing dirty they said to the south Asian community that if you vote to leave the eu we will stop eastern Europeans coming in and bring in more south Asians Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis also they are sick of them being drunk all the time and not interacting in the community. about a month ago some dumb as$ Albanian stole a merc sports car and drove it in to the back of a take away in a residential area where the speed limit was 20 and did at least double that. They guy got arrested and released about a week later. Tbh I wanted to say in the EU but not anymore. Have you been to a hospital? Bloody hell fire A&E is maxed out I had to travel to wait 4 HOURS!!! To be seen. I’m paying £150 per month for private health care to reduce that from 4 hours to instantly.


Answering your questions are they a big issue? Yes very as explained above


Want a better life? I don’t care about them not one bit I care about those who I want to care about [call me evil]


Criminal activities? Heck yeah they brought that too. Check this out:

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u..._Blu_ray_player_back_to_man_he_stole_it_from/


tpay taxes? Do they hecks, once they have money they sent it back to their home country to build a house their.

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## flamer84

Blue Marlin said:


> Large number of those sit and do nothing. The rest of those are either in the building trade or open up shops that specialise in eastern European foods only. A friend of mine as reluctant to lease his shop to a Romanian but he did and its ok I guess but only eastern Europeans go there though. Also they pop out babies like they are going out of fashion. Obviously for benefits. also the Brexit campaign has been playing dirty they said to the south Asian community that if you vote to leave the eu we will stop eastern Europeans coming in and bring in more south Asians Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis also they are sick of them being drunk all the time and not interacting in the community. about a month ago some dumb as$ Albanian stole a merc sports car and drove it in to the back of a take away in a residential area where the speed limit was 20 and did at least double that. They guy got arrested and released about a week later. Tbh I wanted to say in the EU but not anymore. Have you been to a hospital? Bloody hell fire A&E is maxed out I had to travel to wait 4 HOURS!!! To be seen I’m paying £150 per month for private health care to reduce that from 4 hours to instantly.
> 
> 
> Answering your questions are they a big issue? Yes very as explained above
> 
> 
> Want a better life? I don’t care about them not one bit I care about those who I want to care about [call me evil]
> 
> 
> Criminal activities? Heck yeah they brought that too. Check this out:
> 
> http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u..._Blu_ray_player_back_to_man_he_stole_it_from/
> 
> 
> tpay taxes? Do they hecks, once they have money they sent it back to their home country to build a house their.




Everything you wrote there is pure trash and a lie.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...stern-European-migrants-find-work-faster.html


_Politicians often talk about “benefit tourism”. In the UK, East European migrants are much less likely than other groups to claim Jobseeker’s Allowance, our main unemployment benefit:_

_





_
So,lower stats that the natives and lower than non EU immigrants when it comes to welfare.So much for the drunks who don't work BS Vyou're spitting without a single fact behind it.


_This is almost certainly because East European migrants come to the UK to work. The study shows that while the employment rate for native UK citizens is somewhat over 70 per cent, for East Europeans it is just over 80 per cent. And this is not a new phenomenon:_

_East European migrant workers are definitely not a drain on the health service. They account for a smaller proportion of health spending than their share of the population (like all migrant groups), while for native UK citizens the opposite is true:

If everyone paid attention to this study, both sides of the argument might have to think more carefully:


Yes, there are a lot of East European migrant workers in this country


They aren’t “benefit tourists” – they’ve come here to work


They aren’t a drain on the NHS


Or on social housing


And, overall, they’re less likely to get benefits


But they are more likely to get Child Benefit and tax credits


That’s partly because they’re more likely to be young enough to have young families


And partly because pay is so low and unequal



*So,over 80% of Eastern Europeans work in the UK vs 70% of native Brits.As per your beloved refugees ,who you told me,in another thread that you know they are hardworking....

Only 494 out of 163,000 asylum seekers have found a job in Sweden
Using figures from Sweden's employment agency Arbetsförmedlingen and migration authorities Migrationsverket, SVT reported on Tuesday that 494 asylum seekers who arrived in 2015 have managed to find a job to support themselves while waiting for their application to get processed.

http://www.thelocal.se/20160531/fewer-than-500-of-163000-asylum-seekers-found-jobs
*
That's like 0.3% of them working....lol

_


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## livingdead

Vauban said:


> What a crew.
> -
> Anyway,I have seen some documentaries about the Brexit and interestingly,people were more worried about the immigration from eastern europe than africa,middle east etc. Are those eastern europeans really a big issue ?
> Of course as the conditions of immigration were made easier when they acceded to the EU,many moved to UK in hope to find a work and to have a better life,and of course.... of course.... some brought with them their criminal activities to the UK,but is that really a big issue ? They work,pay taxes,support the welfare state and the elderly ? Maybe I am wrong ? enlighten me,please.
> 
> @waz @Kaptaan @Pakistani Exile @Blue Marlin @Steve781


well, the core issue is lack of border control... its the feeling that british have no say in who comes in makes people angry. The criminality/welfare are peripheral issues made by tabloid media. Its not like british will prefer to let Indians in rather than romanian, its just that they can choose to stop Indian when they please.
The reason why it found widespread support among working class people is, its undercutting of wages(wages at low level have stagnated or dropped hitting working class people the hardest). Consumers and rich people are big beneficiary of eastern european migration.

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## Blue Marlin

flamer84 said:


> Everything you wrote there is pure trash and a lie.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...stern-European-migrants-find-work-faster.html
> 
> 
> _Politicians often talk about “benefit tourism”. In the UK, East European migrants are much less likely than other groups to claim Jobseeker’s Allowance, our main unemployment benefit:_
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> So,lower stats that the natives and lower than non EU immigrants when it comes to welfare.So much for the drunks who don't work BS Vyou're spitting without a single fact behind it.
> 
> 
> _This is almost certainly because East European migrants come to the UK to work. The study shows that while the employment rate for native UK citizens is somewhat over 70 per cent, for East Europeans it is just over 80 per cent. And this is not a new phenomenon:_
> 
> _East European migrant workers are definitely not a drain on the health service. They account for a smaller proportion of health spending than their share of the population (like all migrant groups), while for native UK citizens the opposite is true:
> 
> If everyone paid attention to this study, both sides of the argument might have to think more carefully:
> 
> _
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Yes, there are a lot of East European migrant workers in this country
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> They aren’t “benefit tourists” – they’ve come here to work
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> They aren’t a drain on the NHS
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Or on social housing
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> And, overall, they’re less likely to get benefits
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> But they are more likely to get Child Benefit and tax credits
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> That’s partly because they’re more likely to be young enough to have young families
> _
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> And partly because pay is so low and unequal
> 
> 
> 
> *So,over 80% of Eastern Europeans work in the UK vs 70% of native Brits.As per your beloved refugees ,who you told me,in another thread that you know they are hardworking....
> 
> Only 494 out of 163,000 asylum seekers have found a job in Sweden
> Using figures from Sweden's employment agency Arbetsförmedlingen and migration authorities Migrationsverket, SVT reported on Tuesday that 494 asylum seekers who arrived in 2015 have managed to find a job to support themselves while waiting for their application to get processed.
> 
> http://www.thelocal.se/20160531/fewer-than-500-of-163000-asylum-seekers-found-jobs*
> 
> That's like 0.3% of them working....lol
> _


whatever floats your boat

some migrants are good yes but theres some who are not, and that 'some' is a lot. you have no idea how many migrants live in neighbouring towns, alot you have to only go there and ask and even see for yourself.

oh and anyone can make a chart and send it to the media.

if you dont buy that then here
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3168884/Eastern-Europeans-UK-earn-claim-born-Britain.html
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/25/eastern-european-immigration-crime-britain
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/380512/How-Romanian-criminals-terrorise-our-streets
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/188424-denmark-website-against-eastern-europeans/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232/Immigrant-crime-soars-with-foreign-prisoners-rising
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2963368/Romanians-EIGHT-times-likely-jailed-Britons.html

this pi$$es me of
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...K-s-turn-countries-complain-new-arrivals.html

i stand by everything i said.heck even middle eastern migrant are starting to cause problems down in manchester, south east asains indonesians just do god knows what but they dont cause problems south asains are a problem too but they have been here since the 60's and some of them still have their backward ways but thats changing quiet quickly. at first when eastern europeans first came around 2007 ish i liked them as i was under the impression they are just like us but that impression died a long time ago [6 years ago].



hinduguy said:


> well, the core issue is lack of border control... its the feeling that british have no say in who comes in makes people angry. The criminality/welfare are peripheral issues made by tabloid media. Its not like british will prefer to let Indians in rather than romanian, its just that they can choose to stop Indian when they please.
> The reason why it found widespread support among working class people is, its undercutting of wages(wages at low level have stagnated or dropped hitting working class people the hardest). Consumers and rich people are big beneficiary of eastern european migration.


thats true mainly the fact that the working class are taking the hit


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## flamer84

Blue Marlin said:


> whatever floats your boat
> 
> some migrants are good yes but theres some who are not, and that 'some' is a lot. you have no idea how many migrants live in neighbouring towns, alot you have to only go there and ask and even see for yourself.
> 
> oh and anyone can make a chart and send it to the media.
> 
> if you dont buy that then here
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3168884/Eastern-Europeans-UK-earn-claim-born-Britain.html
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/25/eastern-european-immigration-crime-britain
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/380512/How-Romanian-criminals-terrorise-our-streets
> https://www.rt.com/op-edge/188424-denmark-website-against-eastern-europeans/
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232/Immigrant-crime-soars-with-foreign-prisoners-rising
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2963368/Romanians-EIGHT-times-likely-jailed-Britons.html
> 
> this pi$$es me of
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...K-s-turn-countries-complain-new-arrivals.html
> 
> i stand by everything i said.heck even middle eastern migrant are starting to cause problems down in manchester, south east asains indonesians just do god knows what but they dont cause problems south asains are a problem too but they have been here since the 60's and some of them still have their backward ways but thats changing quiet quickly. at first when eastern europeans first came around 2007 ish i liked them as i was under the impression they are just like us but that impression died a long time ago [6 years ago].
> 
> 
> thats true mainly the fact that the working class are taking the hit




Those are statistics buddy,not hand drawn charts.And those statistics say that Eastern European migrants have higher employement figures than native Brits or non EU migrants and they use the NHS fewer times reported to their population than the Brits.Deal with it because it's a mathematical truth.


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## waz

Blue Marlin said:


> damn thats old.
> 
> long time no see hows life when theres exams are going



All good my friend, I'm on half-term so chilling and campaigning.



oprih said:


> Britain should stay, without the eu, britain would be so irrelevant that even the economic migrants from middle east and africa won't care about it.



The UK is a nuclear weapons state. It has a seat in the UNSC. It's a member of the G7,G20, sits on the WTO and so on. It is one of the most powerful states in the world. We don't care what anyone thinks about us.



SvenSvensonov said:


> Honestly, I hate politics. They're divisive, and bring out the worst in people.
> 
> But if you must know, I'm voting for whoever the democrats elect as their candidate.



Oh Nord, the liberal in you lives on.



SvenSvensonov said:


> Someone who only visits Europe when it's too hot at home.



Don't you miss the snow?



Vauban said:


> What a crew.
> -
> Anyway,I have seen some documentaries about the Brexit and interestingly,people were more worried about the immigration from eastern europe than africa,middle east etc. Are those eastern europeans really a big issue ?
> Of course as the conditions of immigration were made easier when they acceded to the EU,many moved to UK in hope to find a work and to have a better life,and of course.... of course.... some brought with them their criminal activities to the UK,but is that really a big issue ? They work,pay taxes,support the welfare state and the elderly ? Maybe I am wrong ? enlighten me,please.
> 
> @waz @Kaptaan @Pakistani Exile @Blue Marlin @Steve781



It's not about our EE friends, it's about low skilled labour which comes from there and elsewhere. Low skilled folks pay well below the required amount to be a net contributor to the exchequer, which is around £40,000 per annum. Yes overall they have a net contribution, but if you take out the Western Europeans workers, then it is non-significant at all, and would certainly be offset by savings made from coming out of the EU.
Also, yes, I much rather prefer skilled migrants from Europe than many other places.

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## Blue Marlin

flamer84 said:


> Those are statistics buddy,not hand drawn charts.And those statistics say that Eastern European migrants have higher employement figures than native Brits or non EU migrants and they use the NHS fewer times reported to their population than the Brits.Deal with it because it's a mathematical truth.


your in denial, its ok.
health tourism is just a myth


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## flamer84

Blue Marlin said:


> your in denial, its ok.
> health tourism is just a myth




Look son,you only has bed time stories,I showed you the real data.Now,as you're a liar with no numbers behind his lies why won't you take it like a good lad and spare us your fantasies.


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## Blue Marlin

flamer84 said:


> Look son,you only has bed time stories,I showed you the real data.Now,as you're a liar with no numbers behind his lies why won't you take it like a good lad and spare us your fantasies.


kiddo i dont need to give you numbers the truth is out there.
but if you want stats go on the ons site


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## flamer84

Blue Marlin said:


> kiddo i dont need to give you numbers the truth is out there.
> but if you want stats go on the ons site



Anybody can rant stupidities but the fact remains that EE have the highest employement numbers ,above native Brits and non EU migrants,so,again,deal with it but stop lying.

*Immigrants From Eastern Europe Pay 12% More In Taxes Than They Receive In Benefits*

_They made a positive contribution of around £5 billion, and were also better educated than native Brits, with an average of 25% of immigrants having a degree while the UK native average was 24%._

_http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/05/immigration-immigrants-taxes-benefits_n_6101462.html_


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## Blue Marlin

flamer84 said:


> Anybody can rant stupidities but the fact remains that EE have the highest employement numbers ,above native Brits and non EU migrants,so,again,deal with it but stop lying.


duh that coming from somone giving jobs to ee's thats rich the only jobe ee's are good for are brickies plasteres and labour.

if you dont want officail stats from ons then your not worth my time

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## flamer84

Blue Marlin said:


> duh that coming from somone giving jobs to ee's thats rich the only jobe ee's are good for are brickies plasteres and labour.
> 
> if you dont want officail stats from ons then your not worth my time




It's fun taking you for a ride.Post your statistics boyo,all I see you foaming at the mouth when I debunked your lies.Stop barking and proove me wrong,I did my part in dismantling your stupidities.

Come on liar,tells us another fantasy about "what you see on the streets"

@Blue Marlin ......here you are liar,from the ONS,the data from December...


_Of all EU2 citizens who came to the UK in YE December 2015, 52,000 (84%) came for work-related reasons, a statistically significant increase of 17,000 from YE December 2014. Of these, 60% (31,000) arrived with a definite job to go to, a statistically significant increase of 17,000 from YE December 2014. _
http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ns/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2016



*By the way,employement rates for immigrants of Pakistani /Bangladeshi origin are at 50% vs over 80% of Eastern Europeans......*

@Vauban ......

Btw @Blue Marlin ,these EE are far more educated than the riff raff you're defending with your lies.Even you,I see that you don't have the home grown education of not lying through your teeth so I take it upon me to educate you given your parents obvious failures.

@Vauban ...leaving aside the delirium tremens of that poster,here are the facts

*European immigrants contribute £5bn to UK economy but non-EU migrants 'cost £118bn'*
Immigrants from Poland and the other nine countries that joined the EU in 2004 have contributed almost £5 billion more to the UK’s economy than they used in benefits and public services.
Analysis by the University College London Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration found that while the fiscal contribution by European workers was overwhelmingly positive – amounting to £20 billion in a decade – the same was not true for non-EEA arrivals.
*Between 1995 and 2011, immigrants from outside the EU made a negative contribution of £118 billion over 17 years, the report found, using more publicly-funded services, including the NHS, education and benefits, than they paid in tax.*

*http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...y-but-non-eu-migrants-cost-118bn-9840170.html*

Clear as night and day,EE workers are a plus for the UK economy,non EU migrants are a drain.The UK can do whatever it wants,kick them out and keep their welfare queen migrants from outside the EU but I don't have to accept BS excuses when these people are a net plus for the economy.

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## Vergennes

@flamer84

I support the immigration from E.E,contrary to the trash coming from middle east and africa,they are very educated,qualified and skilled.... they are filling up the jobs were we lack skilled workers and are contributing to the economy. (+ They are even doing the jobs that we don't want to do !)
*They aren't a burden to the social security unlike others*...
They integrate very well and are doing efforts to do so. And I say this as my neighbors are from Poland.
-
You can't label as bad an entire community just because you had a bad experience with some drunk weirdos.

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> @flamer84
> 
> I support the immigration from E.E,contrary to the trash coming from middle east and africa,they are very educated,qualified and skilled.... they are filling up the jobs were we lack skilled workers and are contributing to the economy. (+ They are even doing the jobs that we don't want to do !)
> *They aren't a burden to the social security unlike others*...
> They integrate very well and are doing efforts to do so. And I say this as my neighbors are from Poland.
> -
> You can't label as bad an entire community just because you had a bad experience with some drunk weirdos.




It's not like Eastern Europeans are God's people.You get all sorts of bad apples,especially many criminals setting up shop in Western Europe but to say "most of them sit there doing nothing but claiming welfare" when the stats proove the opposite is just ridiculous.Pound per pound they're far better migrants than non EU ones as showed in their contribution which I've quoted above.Eastern states might be poorer but commies did one thing right...the vigourous educational system,that's why you see many EE highschool,college kids doing well in applied sciences olympiads every year.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Anybody can rant stupidities but the fact remains that EE have the highest employement numbers ,above native Brits and non EU migrants,so,again,deal with it but stop lying.


Depend on what source you are looking at

*Eastern Europeans in the UK 'earn less and claim more' than those born in Britain - but migrants from Western Europe, Australia and North America do better *

*Report: Eastern Europeans claim more benefits than people born in Britain*
*Study also found they earn lower wages than the UK-born population*
*Pakistan, Bangladeshi & African migrants also more likely to claim benefits*
*Figures come from the Office for National Statistics’ Labour Force Survey*

Source :http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3168884/Eastern-Europeans-UK-earn-claim-born-Britain.html

*Three in four migrants from Eastern Europe filling low-skill jobs: Third are in roles such as fruit picking as evidence mounts cheap labour is forcing down British workers' pay *

*Report reveals almost 3/4 of Easter Europeans in UK filling low-skilled jobs*
*More than a third - 318,000 - in basic jobs such as cleaning and fruit picking*
*Growing evidence cheap foreign labour has reduced British workers' pay*
*Migration Watch analysis based on the Office for National Statistics survey*
They are far more likely to be in low-skilled jobs than people born in Britain or workers who have arrived from older EU member states such as France and Germany, says the think-tank Migration Watch UK.

There is growing evidence that the influx of cheap foreign labour has forced down the pay of some British workers.

Last week Bank of England governor Mark Carney said the increase in the size of the workforce, partly driven by migration, had ‘contained wage growth in the face of robust employment growth’.

This shows there are 1.27million EU workers who have arrived in Britain since 1997 – the year the Blair government was elected. Of the 872,000 from Eastern Europe, 630,000 are in roles defined as low-skilled by the Government’s Migration Advisory Committee.

Just over half were in the second-lowest skills category, which includes administrative and secretarial, sales and customer services, and process, plant and machine operatives. The remainder were in the lowest ‘elementary’ occupations.

The workers are from Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia, which joined the EU in 2004. Labour predicted only 13,000 a year would arrive.

Also included are people from Romania and Bulgaria, given open access to the UK jobs market in January 2014.

Migration Watch chairman Lord Green of Deddington said: ‘This analysis clearly demonstrates that some means must be found to curb low-skilled immigration from the EU if immigration is to be brought under control.

'East European workers have a very good reputation for their work ethic but the fact that they are so overwhelmingly in low-skilled work raises real questions about their value to the UK economy. They add considerably to the pressure on public services.’

Migration Watch said the figures make it ‘extremely unlikely’ that migrants in the lowest-skilled jobs are making a positive net fiscal contribution. Workers earning less than £10,600 do not pay income tax, although they do make other contributions, such as paying VAT.

And a study of pay in London found the lowest-paid 20 per cent have seen wages fall by 15 per cent on average.

Earlier this month, official figures showed that the number of Romanians and Bulgarians working in the UK had increased by a third in a single year to 173,000. The total of non-UK nationals from the EU working in Britain increased by 283,000 – 17 per cent – to a record 1.91million.

A Home Office spokesman said: ‘Nine out of every ten people in work are UK nationals – we want to make sure British citizens benefit first from the country’s growing economy, but that we also attract the skilled migrants that are needed.

‘The new government will negotiate with the EU to bring in further reforms, so that people will have to be earning here for a number of years before they can claim benefits, including the tax credits that top up low wages.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cheap-labour-forcing-British-workers-pay.html


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> *Three in four migrants from Eastern Europe filling low-skill jobs: Third are in roles such as fruit picking as evidence mounts cheap labour is forcing down British workers' pay *
> 
> *Report reveals almost 3/4 of Easter Europeans in UK filling low-skilled jobs*
> *More than a third - 318,000 - in basic jobs such as cleaning and fruit picking*
> *Growing evidence cheap foreign labour has reduced British workers' pay*
> *Migration Watch analysis based on the Office for National Statistics survey*
> They are far more likely to be in low-skilled jobs than people born in Britain or workers who have arrived from older EU member states such as France and Germany, says the think-tank Migration Watch UK.
> 
> There is growing evidence that the influx of cheap foreign labour has forced down the pay of some British workers.
> 
> Last week Bank of England governor Mark Carney said the increase in the size of the workforce, partly driven by migration, had ‘contained wage growth in the face of robust employment growth’.
> 
> This shows there are 1.27million EU workers who have arrived in Britain since 1997 – the year the Blair government was elected. Of the 872,000 from Eastern Europe, 630,000 are in roles defined as low-skilled by the Government’s Migration Advisory Committee.
> 
> Just over half were in the second-lowest skills category, which includes administrative and secretarial, sales and customer services, and process, plant and machine operatives. The remainder were in the lowest ‘elementary’ occupations.
> 
> The workers are from Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia, which joined the EU in 2004. Labour predicted only 13,000 a year would arrive.
> 
> Also included are people from Romania and Bulgaria, given open access to the UK jobs market in January 2014.
> 
> Migration Watch chairman Lord Green of Deddington said: ‘This analysis clearly demonstrates that some means must be found to curb low-skilled immigration from the EU if immigration is to be brought under control.
> 
> 'East European workers have a very good reputation for their work ethic but the fact that they are so overwhelmingly in low-skilled work raises real questions about their value to the UK economy. They add considerably to the pressure on public services.’
> 
> Migration Watch said the figures make it ‘extremely unlikely’ that migrants in the lowest-skilled jobs are making a positive net fiscal contribution. Workers earning less than £10,600 do not pay income tax, although they do make other contributions, such as paying VAT.
> 
> And a study of pay in London found the lowest-paid 20 per cent have seen wages fall by 15 per cent on average.
> 
> Earlier this month, official figures showed that the number of Romanians and Bulgarians working in the UK had increased by a third in a single year to 173,000. The total of non-UK nationals from the EU working in Britain increased by 283,000 – 17 per cent – to a record 1.91million.
> 
> A Home Office spokesman said: ‘Nine out of every ten people in work are UK nationals – we want to make sure British citizens benefit first from the country’s growing economy, but that we also attract the skilled migrants that are needed.
> 
> ‘The new government will negotiate with the EU to bring in further reforms, so that people will have to be earning here for a number of years before they can claim benefits, including the tax credits that top up low wages.’
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cheap-labour-forcing-British-workers-pay.html



Even so,still better than not working and staying on dole like half on non EU migrants.They actually give back while the others take from the state.

If you think that wages will go up if they leave you're in for a rude awakening and so is the British public.Those businesses will become uncompetitive and will loose to ones from other EU countries.

Still,look at their numbers,it's impossible for all of them to occupy high paid jobs.....


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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Even so,still better than not working and staying on dole like half on non EU migrants.They actually give back while the others take from the state.
> 
> If you think that wages will go up if they leave you're in for a rude awakening and so is the British public.Those businesses will become uncompetitive and will loose to ones from other EU countries.
> 
> Still,look at their numbers,it's impossible for all of them to occupy high paid jobs.....


Cheap unskilled labour from east European countries who barely speak English definitely affected the wages. Its simple economics. If you have someone working for flat rate of 5.50 pound per hour on weekend and bank holidays then employers dont need to hire those who are asking for more and demands more rights as a employee..

British also need to reform their welfare systems to give more facilities to those who prefer to work. If those who sit at home and do nothing get benefits from state as much as those who are working on minimum wages then It will discourage them to go and find work


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## Vergennes

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Cheap unskilled labour from east European countries who barely speak English definitely affected the wages. Its simple economics. If you have someone working for flat rate of 5.50 pound per hour on weekend and bank holidays then employers dont need to hire those who are asking for more and demands more rights as a employee..
> 
> British also need to reform their welfare systems to give more facilities to those who prefer to work. If those who sit at home and do nothing get benefits from state as much as those who are working on minimum wages then It will discourage them to go and find work

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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Cheap unskilled labour from east European countries who barely speak English definitely affected the wages. Its simple economics. If you have someone working for flat rate of 5.50 pound per hour on weekend and bank holidays then employers dont need to hire those who are asking for more and demands more rights as a employee..
> 
> British also need to reform their welfare systems to give more facilities to those who prefer to work. If those who sit at home and do nothing get benefits from state as much as those who are working on minimum wages then It will discourage them to go and find work



Minimum wage is 7.20,weekends,nights and official hollydays are paid extra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index#2015_Rankings

As for the English speaking part,they speak it better than other migrants,overall

Poland...rank 9...very high proficiency

Romania....rank 16...high proficency

Pakistan...rank 45...low proficiency

Also,many EE pull more than the 35h weekly on the job.My own brother,working as a waiter earning some 11.5£/hour (including the service charge and night shifts) pulls about 45-50h/week and they tax you more for extra hours.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Minimum wage is 7.20 weekends,nights and official hollydays are paid extra.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index#2015_Rankings
> 
> As for the English speaking part,they speak it better than other migrants,overall
> 
> Poland...rank 9...very high proficiency
> 
> Romania....rank 16...high proficency
> 
> Pakistan...rank 45...low proficiency


I was talking about minimum wages in UK when polish and Romanian joined the EU ...Minimum £7.20 pay hourly rate was started in this year.Pay rise is not as good as rate of inflation. Before eastern European joined EU they used to give you double rate for working on weekend and for hours over 37 hours and it all got change now its almost flat rate now with most working on zero hours contracts .I was talking about English proficiency of those majority of eastern Europeans who are in low skilled jobs i.e in construction industry, warehouses, farms, cleaning etc and they hardly can speak or understand English unlike others nationalities who come to uk after passing some English language test


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/11/labour-ciriticse-tesco-next-cheap-labour

"It is unfair that unscrupulous employers whose only interest seems to be finding labour as cheaply as possible will recruit workers in large numbers in low-wage countries in the EU, bring them to the UK, charge the costs of their travel and their substandard accommodation against their wages and still not even meet the national minimum wage. "That is unfair. It exploits migrant workers and it makes it impossible for settled workers with mortgages and a family to support at British prices to compete."

"Take the case of Tesco, who recently decided to move their distribution centre in Kent," he will say. "The new centre is larger and employs more people, but the staff at original site, most of them British, were told that they could only move to the new centre if they took a cut in pay. The result? A large percentage of the staff at the new centre are from [the] eastern bloc."

The claim that Tesco has given jobs to cheaper eastern bloc workers at the expense of British staff has been backed by Robert Halfon, the Tory MP for Harlow, where the original centre was based.

"Tesco have behaved disgracefully in my opinion," he said.



Vauban said:


>


Genius i was talking about nationalities who are living and woking in uk ..

[video]



[/video]

[video]



[/video]


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> I was talking about minimum wages in UK when polish and Romanian joined the EU ...Minimum £7.20 pay hourly rate was started in this year.Pay rise is not as good as rate of inflation. Before eastern European joined EU they used to give you double rate for working on weekend and for hours over 37 hours and it all got change as now its almost flat rate now with most working on zero hours contracts .I was talking about English proficiency of those majority of eastern Europeans who are in low skilled jobs i.e in construction industry, warehouses, farms, cleaning etc and they hardly can speak or understand English unlike others nationalities who come to uk after passing some English language test
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/11/labour-ciriticse-tesco-next-cheap-labour
> 
> "It is unfair that unscrupulous employers whose only interest seems to be finding labour as cheaply as possible will recruit workers in large numbers in low-wage countries in the EU, bring them to the UK, charge the costs of their travel and their substandard accommodation against their wages and still not even meet the national minimum wage. "That is unfair. It exploits migrant workers and it makes it impossible for settled workers with mortgages and a family to support at British prices to compete."
> 
> "Take the case of Tesco, who recently decided to move their distribution centre in Kent," he will say. "The new centre is larger and employs more people, but the staff at original site, most of them British, were told that they could only move to the new centre if they took a cut in pay. The result? A large percentage of the staff at the new centre are from [the] eastern bloc."
> 
> The claim that Tesco has given jobs to cheaper eastern bloc workers at the expense of British staff has been backed by Robert Halfon, the Tory MP for Harlow, where the original centre was based.
> 
> "Tesco have behaved disgracefully in my opinion," he said.




Have you ever thought that this is one of the reasons why the British economy is doing well unlike other EU countries ? Lower wages makes them more competitive.Even if 1/4 of EE workers are in high qualified jobs that still makes almost 500k while only 1/3 are on the lower end...the rest are somewhere in the middle.It's pretty far fetched that 2 millions of them would all be engineers,doctors,IT,etc.Somebody has to do the lower end to and that's a fact for every country out there not only the UK.

The fact remains that hiking wages would lead to loosing competiveness,a fact I suspect would sink into the British reality after the BREXIT.I eagerly anticipate to see how if they go,wages will rise and all with be honky dory.

After all said and done,i've posted an article in this thread which shows that,overall,EE workers gave more than they took to the British economy while non EU migrants,highly qualified in English and working as you describe them took more from the state than they gave so they're a burden.EE workers are not.Math doesn't lie.

Long story short,how can they be accused of leaching when they gave more while non EU migrants drained the British state of hundreds of billions of £? It doesn't make sense....throw the ones who contribute to the budget,keep the ones who drain the budget for welfare.

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## Pakistani E

Vauban said:


> What a crew.
> -
> Anyway,I have seen some documentaries about the Brexit and interestingly,people were more worried about the immigration from eastern europe than africa,middle east etc. Are those eastern europeans really a big issue ?
> Of course as the conditions of immigration were made easier when they acceded to the EU,many moved to UK in hope to find a work and to have a better life,and of course.... of course.... some brought with them their criminal activities to the UK,but is that really a big issue ? They work,pay taxes,support the welfare state and the elderly ? Maybe I am wrong ? enlighten me,please.
> 
> @waz @Kaptaan @Pakistani Exile @Blue Marlin @Steve781



Well it is harder for non E.U migrants to come to the U.K for work:

"To settle in the UK as a skilled worker, non-EU migrants need to have a Tier 2 visa. For this you need:


An offer for a job in the UK that pays at least £20,800
Have had at least £945 in your bank account for 90 days
A certificate of sponsorship from your employer (which can cost between £536 and £1,476)
To pay a £200 annual healthcare surcharge
To prove your English language proficiency
After five years on this visa, skilled workers are able to apply for ‘indefinite leave to remain’ – and _this_ is what is about to change.

From April, anyone applying for indefinite leave to remain will need to earn at least £35,000."


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/12/from-...arning-less-than-35000-5748436/#ixzz4AVozJxxj

Well in my opinion, people here actually want to see a cut in Non E.U migrants as well. You won't find many people here wanting to welcome too many refugees. Most of the non skilled migration to the U.K from non E.U countries is now relegated to asylum cases, family migration and students. The largest number of whom are students, mainly Chinese. The singling out of E.U migrants is not correct in my opinion but this is what is happening, perhaps because there is a perception that the U.K doesn't really have control or say in that matter and that anyone can come to the U.K, work here while claiming benefits for their children in their own countries then return.

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## waz

Pakistani Exile said:


> The singling out of E.U migrants is not correct in my opinion but this is what is happening, perhaps because there is a perception that the U.K doesn't really have control



That's the number one issue now, along with sovereignty and greater integration.

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## flamer84

Pakistani Exile said:


> Well it is harder for non E.U migrants to come to the U.K for work:
> 
> "To settle in the UK as a skilled worker, non-EU migrants need to have a Tier 2 visa. For this you need:
> 
> 
> An offer for a job in the UK that pays at least £20,800
> Have had at least £945 in your bank account for 90 days
> A certificate of sponsorship from your employer (which can cost between £536 and £1,476)
> To pay a £200 annual healthcare surcharge
> To prove your English language proficiency
> After five years on this visa, skilled workers are able to apply for ‘indefinite leave to remain’ – and _this_ is what is about to change.
> 
> From April, anyone applying for indefinite leave to remain will need to earn at least £35,000."
> 
> 
> Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/12/from-...arning-less-than-35000-5748436/#ixzz4AVozJxxj
> 
> Well in my opinion, people here actually want to see a cut in Non E.U migrants as well. You won't find many people here wanting to welcome too many refugees. Most of the non skilled migration to the U.K from non E.U countries is now relegated to asylum cases, family migration and students. The largest number of whom are students, mainly Chinese. The singling out of E.U migrants is not correct in my opinion but this is what is happening, perhaps because there is a perception that the U.K doesn't really have control or say in that matter and that anyone can come to the U.K, work here while claiming benefits for their children in their own countries then return.




I can certainly understand all of these points,however,this particular discussion escalated when a certain poster said that "most EU/EE migrants sit around,getting drunk and doing nothing".

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## Vergennes

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> [video]
> 
> 
> 
> [/video]



Roma gypsies.... they aren't romanians,will never be romanians and have nothing to do with romanians.
They aren't only stealing clothes for charity in UK,but everywhere in Europe.
I,once witnessed them breaking into charity bins and stealing clothes....... @flamer84 funnily I was going to call the police when one patrol car came out from nowhere and caught them. 
These people have no shame,even stealing the clothes that good people prepared and gave to the really needy.

In Germany ;






@SMS Derfflinger 

Of course they are trying to pick the best clothes...

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> Roma gypsies.... they aren't romanians,will never be romanians and have nothing to do with romanians.
> They aren't only stealing clothes for charity in UK,but everywhere in Europe.
> I,once witnessed them breaking into charity bins and stealing clothes....... @flamer84 funnily I was going to call the police when one patrol car came out from nowhere and caught them.
> These people have no shame,even stealing the clothes that good people prepared and gave to the really needy.
> 
> In Germany ;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @SMS Derfflinger
> 
> Of course they are trying to pick the best clothes...




Western police is to soft.Gypsie caught stealing in London,just look at him and his mates having a jolly good time






I guarantee you that in Romania he wouldn't be so happy as he knows that besides landing in jail the police would beat him hard and if he would complain they would just say he slipped down the stairs.

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## Pakistani E

flamer84 said:


> I can certainly
> understand all of these points,however,this particular discussion escalated when a certain poster said that "most EU/EE migrants sit around,getting drunk and doing nothing".



Only an idiot would say that...

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## waz

flamer84 said:


> Western police is to soft.Gypsie caught stealing in London,just look at him and his mates having a jolly good time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guarantee you that in Romania he wouldn't be so happy as he knows that besides landing in jail the police would beat him hard and if he would complain they would just say he slipped down the stairs.



This was quite a while back, they're not "soft" anymore lol. My close friend serves in the Met and he regularly slams their heads on car doors etc.



Vauban said:


> In Germany ;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @SMS Derfflinger
> 
> Of course they are trying to pick the best clothes...



Wow, poor guys. What must they be going through in order to steal clothes from the Red Cross, destined for children with nothing but rags on their backs. 
I'd honestly just tranquillise them, put them on a cargo plane, fly over to where they came from and open the doors, after a low level pass over water.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Pakistani Exile said:


> Well it is harder for non E.U migrants to come to the U.K for work:
> 
> "To settle in the UK as a skilled worker, non-EU migrants need to have a Tier 2 visa. For this you need:
> 
> 
> An offer for a job in the UK that pays at least £20,800
> Have had at least £945 in your bank account for 90 days
> A certificate of sponsorship from your employer (which can cost between £536 and £1,476)
> To pay a £200 annual healthcare surcharge
> To prove your English language proficiency


Well you will see that European have more rights in UK than even British. When a British want to bring his non European wife and children in UK he need to pay visa fees of £1,195 for each applicant plus £200 immigration health surcharge per year for every single applicant. This visa only valid for 2 and half year so when you will extend visa of your spouse/children for next 2 and half year then pay same amount again...You must also be in job earning at least 18, 600 per annum if apply just for wife or £22,400 per year for wife and one child and £2,400 per year for each additional child.. Your partner also need to pass English /TB test and they will have no resource to public fund for at least five years ..But these rules only applicable to British but if you are European living in Uk then you dont need to meet any of such requirement to bring your non European spouse in uk saving them alot of money and hassle


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## waz

The newspapers declare their allegiance.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-are-backing-brexit-and-remain-a7089876.html

*Brexit supporters *

The Daily Mail.
The Daily Express.
The Telegraph.
The Sunday Telegraph.
The Sun.
The Spectator (magazine)

*Remain supporters.*

The Guardian.
The Observer 
The Mail on Sunday.
The Times (readership disagrees)


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Prime minster David Camero answers questions on the case for remaining in the European Union.

[video]




Justice secretary Michael Gove MP answers questions on the case for leaving the European Union.

[video]


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## livingdead

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Prime minster David Camero answers questions on the case for remaining in the European Union.
> 
> [video]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justice secretary Michael Gove MP answers questions on the case for leaving the European Union.
> 
> [video]


Cameron was a more effective speaker between two.... both however just dug in to their positions.. only 4 days to go, and nobody wants to do anything wrong.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

hinduguy said:


> Cameron was a more effective speaker between two.... both however just dug in to their positions.. only 4 days to go, and nobody wants to do anything wrong.


Cameron know how to play with words and his all debate come down to advantage of single market lol you will always see him interacting with public at the end of debate while others speakers seem bit cold and too serious


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## Proudpakistaniguy

*When are the EU referendum results, what time will we know the winner - and how does it all work?*

Although voting will close at 10pm on Thursday this week, the future of Britain’s relationship with the European Union will not be known until at least nine hours later, at 7am on Friday morning.

The tension will be greater than normal general election nights because the major broadcasters have not commissioned any exit polls over concerns about accuracy.

There were also no exit polls at the Scottish referendum in September 2014 which meant that the result was only known when the No campaign had won more than 50 per cent of the votes cast.

The results themselves will come in during a frantic three hour period on Friday morning, between 4am and 7am; by breakfast time, the result of the EU referendum should be known

*How will the count take place?*

Polling stations are open from 7am to 10pm on Thursday. The best advice is to vote early as the Electoral Commission is forecasting that turnout could be as high as 80 per cent (significantly more than the 66 per cent who voted at last year's general election).

There are already fears that there might be queues if because the Government curtailed the amount of time that staff have to get ready after it extended the online registration deadline.

A change in the law after chaos at polling stations in 2010 – when some people were denied a vote because of long queues – means that if people queuing at 10pm will be allowed to vote.

At the close of the poll, thousands of sealed ballot boxes are collected from schools and church halls which have been doubling up as polling stations and transported to one of 382 counting venues across the UK.

*Why are the results so late?*

For the count, the UK has been divided into 382 counting areas which will first verify each ballot, allowing each area to announce the turn-out. The counting will then begin.

These results will then be collated and fed by local counting officers to regional counting officers in 12 electoral regions, who will only announce their results when all the areas have concluded their counts.

Unlike at a general election, when MPs only needs to win a majority in their constituency to win the seat, every vote counts – which means that the final results for Leave and Remain will creep up slowly as regions make their declarations.

The result will be declared by Jenny Watson, the chairman of the Electoral Commission and the referendum’s chief counting officer at Manchester Town Hall, although no physical counting of ballot papers is taking place here.

*Which are the most important declarations?*

Not much will happen before 5am. But the turnout – which could come at 3am – will be important: a high turnout – with more young people voting - is likely to mean a good night for Remain.

Remain is likely to take a healthy lead once the early declarations are made with the results for pro-EU regions - Wales , Scotland and London - making their results known by 5am.

But the first indication of whether Leave has done enough will come at 5am when the result for the Labour dominated north east of England is known.

This result will demonstrate whether Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has succeeded in persuading Labour supporters to vote in their droves for Remain.

A strong vote for In for Labour is seen as vital in ensuring that a Brexit is averted.

The results night will now get interesting with the declarations showing whether the forecast swing to Leave across swathes of Middle England has come to pass.

Between 6am and 7am the main English results will be known – which in turn will finally decide the result of the EU in/out referendum.

Counting officers for the west Midlands declare at 6am, followed by the East Midlands, and South West at 6.30am, and finally at 7am Eastern, North West and South East.

*What happens next?*

No one knows. However it is likely that David Cameron, the Prime Minister, will want to make a statement as soon as the result is known, probably on the steps of Number 10, as he did moments after the result was declared in the Scottish independence referendum.

A statement is likely if only to calm the London Stock Market, which opens for trading at 8am.

*When will I find out how my area voted?*

4am, Wales (22 counting areas)

4am, Northern Ireland (18 counting areas)

5am, North East (12 counting areas)

5am, Scotland (17 counting areas)

5am, London (33 counting areas)

5am, Yorkshire & Humber (21 counting areas)

6am, West Midlands (30 counting areas

6.30am, East Midlands (40 counting areas)

6.30am, South West (38 counting areas)

7am, Eastern (46 counting areas)

7am, North West (39 counting areas)

7am, South Eastern (68 counting areas)


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## Hyde

So referendum is near. Are you guys voting for IN or OUT?

UK Members must cast either IN or Out and for the convenience of other Members I am listing 3rd option

Two question to answer in writing if interested:

Did your opinion change or had any influence after the murder of Jo Cox?

The reason of your choice?

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## Jungibaaz

Voting IN. Plenty of good reasons to leave, none of which are actually used by the Brexit campaign. They're content on fearmongering, and basically throwing around bs figures and rhetoric. I was undecided until the Brexit campaign helped me to decide firmly to vote remain.

I've noticed among the British Pakistani community, many will be voting leave, they cite job competition from European migrants and crime rates. Some belief that they themselves might benefit personally from Brexit.

Also, Jo Cox's murder, tragic thought it was, RIP, did not change my opinions much at all, still on remain. Although it has political implications, especially on the far right, but not so much on the EU.

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## Blue Marlin

remain............ listen to john oliver

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## Hyde

Jungibaaz said:


> Voting IN. Plenty of good reasons to leave, none of which are actually used by the Brexit campaign. They're content on fearmongering, and basically throwing around bs figures and rhetoric. I was undecided until the Brexit campaign helped me to decide firmly to vote remain.
> 
> I've noticed among the British Pakistani community, many will be voting leave, they cite job competition from European migrants and crime rates. Some belief that they themselves might benefit personally from Brexit.
> 
> Also, Jo Cox's murder, tragic thought it was, RIP, did not change my opinions much at all, still on remain. Although it has political implications, especially on the far right, but not so much on the EU.


I was undecided until the brutal killing of Jo Cox. I had numerous debates with my professor in favour of leave and he being a former diplomat and PHD was in favour of remain. I had clarified him that I may vote for remain for private reasons but find no genuine reason for Britain to remain in EU as we could do much better economically be staying away from the rotting system of European Union and bilateral trade agreements with the model of Switzerland or Norway could serve us better.

But it does come with implications as we lose vital position within the European Union and our relationship with rest of the developed world may no longer be as strong as before if we do not sit on the table with the backing of 27 nations.

But the murder of Jo Cox made things easier for me and I find genuine reasons to stay for the moment unless another key nation like Holland decides to opt out leading to reversal of entire concept of European Union

PS: This single market may have huge impact on my business so I am better off staying together for now

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Voting for leave because i believe there should be a fair immigration system for all non British. It is much easier for a non-English speaking unskilled European to settle in the UK than skilled English speaking Commonwealth citizen .Why there should be extraordinarily privileged for someone just because they belong to EEA as they dont go through the same immigration rigmarole that non-EEA migrants does under Tiers system or when it come to bringing non European spouse/family. If it was not for mass immigration from other parts of the EU namely Romania, Poland and Bulgaria I doubt VERY much that this in or out referendum would even be happening. I also dont see any convincing reason for staying in EU.


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## Hyde

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Vote for leave because i believe there should be a fair immigration system for all non British. It is much easier for a non-English speaking unskilled European to settle in the UK than skilled English speaking Commonwealth citizen .Why there should be extraordinarily privileged for someone just because they belong to EEA as they dont go through the same immigration rigmarole that non-EEA migrants does under Tiers system or bringing non European spouse/family. If it was not for mass immigration from other parts of the EU namely Romania, Poland and Bulgaria I doubt VERY much that this in or out referendum would even be happening. I also dont see any convicing reason for staying in EU


if the membership of EU is revised once again to limit it's member nation to ideally UK, France and Germany only or further extension to Netherlands and Belgium. It is better off like that... The problem occurs when economies like Greece and Spain put their burden on the whole of Europe and unskilled workers are imported in bulk from Poland and Romania to UK and above mentioned nations... They would either claim benefits or snatch the job of locals with far lesser pay...

but there are implications with either way such as the net contribution of Poland to UK economy is around 150 billion dollars or so compared to its residents take back 11 billion dollars for no reason... the figures can be slightly misleading but the facts are right


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Aether said:


> if the membership of EU is revised once again to limit it's member nation to ideally UK, France and Germany only or further extension to Netherlands and Belgium. It is better off like that... The problem occurs when economies like Greece and Spain put their burden on the whole of Europe and unskilled workers are imported in bulk from Poland and Romania to UK and above mentioned nations... They would either claim benefits or snatch the job of locals with far lesser pay...
> 
> but there are implications with either way such as the net contribution of Poland to UK economy is around 150 billion dollars or so compared to its residents take back 11 billion dollars for no reason... the figures can be slightly misleading but the facts are right


Agree with your first paragraph but Is there any ways to control peopel coming from EU ? say UK need 100 unskilled workers and you get entry of 10000 from eastern European countries then how you gonna control it? There is no way to restrict it if you stay in EU.You have no option to pick the best individuals form these eastern European countries.as you pick the best from others non European countries. You will be free to trade with the rest of the world if leave EU. UK should have this ability to pick what is required as per demands and it would have less burden on NHS,Housing, Education, benefit systems. Whether we like it or not, this referendum has become a referendum on immigration, with the leave side gathering its support primarily from people opposing any further immigration. These same expert people were saying that UK will be destroyed if dont join single Currency EURO but nothing happened and now they are giving same logic for single market


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## livingdead

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Cameron know how to play with words and his all debate come down to advantage of single market lol you will always see him interacting with public at the end of debate while others speakers seem bit cold and too serious


ya..he was quite natural at the end going and shaking hands... others are too stiff probably.. or too weird like ed


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## Hyde

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Agree with your first paragraph but Is there any ways to control peopel coming from EU ? say UK need 100 unskilled workers and you get entry of 10000 from eastern European countries then how you gonna control it? There is no way to restrict it if you stay in EU.You have no option to pick the best individuals form these eastern European countries.as you pick the best from others non European countries. You will be free to trade with the rest of the world if leave EU. UK should have this ability to pick what is required as per demands and it would have less burden on NHS,Housing, Education, benefit systems. Whether we like it or not, this referendum has become a referendum on immigration, with the leave side gathering its support primarily from people opposing any further immigration. These same expert people were saying that UK will be destroyed if dont join single Currency EURO but nothing happened and now they are giving same logic for single market


The problem is, if we leave out of the EU, our foreign policy will be weaker. We would need to reactivate bilateral agreements with the whole of Europe and other countries with whom we maintained agreements under the name of European Union.

It's gonnai waste another decade or so just to make the agreements. The problem is if the tariff of Royal MAIL increases for example it's gonnai have huge impact on my business, if the existing system of VAT and import duty is no longer valid and if I have to dispatch goods to Europe without VAT exemptions it's gonnai play a huge role into my business. This is for somebody doing very basics, imagine the worries of industrial and service sector.

I am least bothered about immigration right now, I am seeing if I will be better off staying within European Union and/or its implications on my business if I am pulled out of EU.

See the government will definitely save some money which they pour in the EU budget each year but how about the losses incurred to the industrial or export sector who trades with European union as Single market or tax free zone.

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## Green Arrow

Most probably going to vote Out as reasons are obvious. More jobs, less burden on NHS & education, more social securities benefits, more housing and most importantly a fair immigration system.


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## Hyde

Green Arrow said:


> Most probably going to vote Out as reasons are obvious. More jobs, less burden on NHS & education, more social securities benefits, more housing and most importantly a fair immigration system.


and you are certain about more social security benefit under the regime of Tories? who have been busy cutting and slashing down all benefits including Disability living allowance for poor wheelchair bound.

This is a day dream, ain't gonnai happen regardless of whether we stay in EU or not. But It will certainly put embargo on unskilled employment sector of the Eastern and Southeastern European countries.

NHS needs overhauling from scratch, basic treatment should be free for everybody but you need to have health insurance or alternative to get major operations done in my opinion. Otherwise they should still do it free of cost but charge later similar to repayment of student loan.

I know members of EU comes to UK for medical tourism but it is not the mother of all issues NHS is facing today. It is just one of the many factors dooming NHS by every passing day


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## ultron

If Britain stays in EU, more murders will happen like what happened to Jo Cox. Leave, and the murders will stop.


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## jamal18

ultron said:


> If Britain stays in EU, more murders will happen like what happened to Jo Cox. Leave, and the murders will stop.


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## Jaanbaz

Changed my position to remain after the murder of Jo Cox(RIP).


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## waz

I'm voting out and Joe Cox's murder had *nothing to do *with the referendum.
The uneasy issue here is what happens to the UK after a remain vote. I can tell you it will be greater federalism and the massive loss of sovereignty for the UK. I was born a Brit, have family history here going back to 1953, and will never see this country bow to the likes of Brussels. Now you may say to yourself that I'm being paranoid etc, but being older than practically everyone who posted here I remember very well the same things being said when the maastricht treaty was signed, and the same lies were fed to the public again when new states joined in 2004.
Enough is enough, time to leave.

As for the poll, there is no way of knowing who voted what and if they actually are resident Brits.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Aether said:


> The problem is, if we leave out of the EU, our foreign policy will be weaker. We would need to reactivate bilateral agreements with the whole of Europe and other countries with whom we maintained agreements under the name of European Union.
> 
> It's gonnai waste another decade or so just to make the agreements. The problem is if the tariff of Royal MAIL increases for example it's gonnai have huge impact on my business, if the existing system of VAT and import duty is no longer valid and if I have to dispatch goods to Europe without VAT exemptions it's gonnai play a huge role into my business. This is for somebody doing very basics, imagine the worries of industrial and service sector.
> 
> I am least bothered about immigration right now, I am seeing if I will be better off staying within European Union and/or its implications on my business if I am pulled out of EU.
> 
> See the government will definitely save some money which they pour in the EU budget each year but how about the losses incurred to the industrial or export sector who trades with European union as Single market or tax free zone.


I dont agree that our foreign policy will be weaker if we leave EU. Do major economies outside EU have weaker foreign policies ? Funny thing is that its EU rules which dont let us abolish VAT on household energy bills. The EU sets a standardised system for VAT across EU member countries including a standard VAT rate of no less than 15% and a reduced rate for certain goods or services of no less than 5%. You are least concern about something which will actually bring more serious consequences in future. Well we are all looking at this referendum debate from our own perspective after hearing the pro and cons from boht side and there are still many things which we dont know but i already made up my mind for voting to leave and most people around me going to do the same but at the end we will have no option but to accept the overall result

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## Vergennes

*Brits panic buying Euros ahead of looming Brexit vote - sales up 381%*

*




*
QUEUES: People are lined up in the streets waiting to get their Euros

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...e-Rate-European-Union-Referendum-Leave-Remain

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Probably the last debate before referendum

[video]


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## Proudpakistaniguy

*Brexit supporters urged to take own pens to polling stations amid fears of MI5 conspiracy*
Nearly a third of Ukip voters believe that MI5 are involved in a plot to rig the vote, according to a survey this week

Andrew Griffin
Thursday 23 June 2016
_




Prime Minister David Cameron and his wife Samantha leave after voting in the EU referendum, at a polling station in central London, Britain June 23, 2016. Reuters
Voters should bring along pens to EU referendum polling stations to avoid an MI5 plot, according to Leave campaigners.

Backers of Brexit are urging people to write in pen and make sure that their ballot papers can’t be erased after the votes have been cast.


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/745880553312952321

*Follow the latest live updates on the EU referendum*

Leave campaigners are worried that the EU referendum is being manipulated by the government – two-thirds of Ukip voters believe that there is a plot to rig the vote, and a third of them believe that MI5 are involved in it, according to a poll this week.

Those warning about the conspiracy suggest that MI5 or another government agency could rub out the crosses on their ballot papers before they are counted – presumably either spoiling their vote or changing it into a vote to remain in the EU.

Numerous people are sharing messages telling people to bring along pens to stop a possible conspiracy to rig the vote. Some have even taken to reminding people at polling stations, with people writing “USE A PEN TO VOTE” on polling station signs as a reminder.

Others have suggested that people should press extra hard when drawing their cross to ensure that it is still visible even if it is erased.

Though pencils are provided within polling stations, there is no legal obligation to vote with them and using your own pen will mean ballot papers will still be counted. Voting rules are relatively relaxed and mean that people can theoretically vote with a tick rather than a cross if they wanted 

*The Electoral Commission has welcomed people bringing a pen and said that observers watch counts to ensure that they are kept secure. Campaigners from both sides have been invited to proceedings to ensure that they are not being tampered with.*

*“By tradition, pencils are available in polling booths for voters to mark their ballot papers,” a spokesperson said. “If a voter wishes to bring their own pen and use that, it's fine.”*

*“In regards to security, at the count there are statutory observers to make sure that they are carried out correctly. Campaigners are also invited to observe the counts taking place.”*

*Seven areas that could swing EU referendum*
*The Electoral Reform Society echoed the warning, telling a voter on Twitter that “you can bring your own pen/marker/sharpie”.*

_

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## Pakistani E

I voted Remain. Dad voted Leave. Civil War!

@waz @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @Vauban @flamer84

@hinduguy @PersonasNonGrata @UKBengali

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## waz

Pakistani Exile said:


> I voted Remain. Dad voted Leave. Civil War!
> 
> @waz @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @Vauban @flamer84
> 
> @hinduguy @PersonasNonGrata @UKBengali



I voted out, entire family voted out and wider friend circles all out. 
Let's see what happens.

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> I voted out, entire family voted out and wider friend circles all out.
> Let's see what happens.


we shall see tommorow 7am

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## Pakistani E

waz said:


> I voted out, entire family voted out and wider friend circles all out.
> Let's see what happens.



My circle of friend's are divided into 50/50 but personally, I think the leavers will clinch it.



Blue Marlin said:


> we shall see tommorow 7am



Remainer?

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Just hope no rigging whatever the results. I have seen plenty of old people early in the morning who was waiting outside the polling station which is good sign for leave supporters

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## Blue Marlin

Pakistani Exile said:


> My circle of friend's are divided into 50/50 but personally, I think the leavers will clinch it.
> 
> 
> 
> Remainer?


yes to remain. if sh!t goes down and the stocks fall on it @$$ i will be out......... out of the uk, i got a flat in shanghai (holiday house)

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Blue Marlin said:


> yes to remain. if sh!t goes down and the stocks fall on it @$$ i will be out......... out of the uk, i got a flat in shanghai (holiday house)

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## Blue Marlin

most labour folk are voting to remain and a reasonable amount of tories supporters are voting are too. its only the rest om them and the yobbos who want to leave under the impression we will be an empire again "make britain better again"
guess who else uses those words




oh sh!t my bad cant tell the differance these days 







Proudpakistaniguy said:


>


it wont start and i will take a high 5 figure hit on the markets

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## Pakistani E

@Blue Marlin 

I have a finance related background as well and believe that the shock from a Brexit would be tremendous for the U.K's fragile recovery. Economic reasoning is the one thing that really tilted the balance for me. Brexiters promises on economics and trade all seem to be based on ifs and are mostly presumptions.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Blue Marlin said:


> most labour folk are voting to remain and a reasonable amount of tories supporters are voting are too. its only the rest om them and the yobbos who want to leave under the impression we will be an empire again "make britain better again"
> guess who else uses those words
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh sh!t my bad cant tell the differance these days
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it wont start and i will take a high 5 figure hit on the markets


Only pessmist people have this obsession with EU who think that UK cannot run by its own ..



Pakistani Exile said:


> @Blue Marlin
> 
> I have a finance related background as well and believe that the shock from a Brexit would be tremendous for the U.K's fragile recovery. Economic reasoning is the one thing that really tilted the balance for me. Brexiters promises on economics and trade all seem to be based on ifs and are mostly presumptions.


It will be short term and Uk will do great in the long Run..just watch in case of brexit ..its all just assumptions and predictions which could be wrong

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## Vergennes

@Pakistani Exile @Blue Marlin @flamer84 

Brexiters be like ;


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/27923829339
Booh,how come those baby eaters from Brussels dare to do that ! Boooh

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## Blue Marlin

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Only pessmist people have this obsession with EU who think that UK cannot run by its own ..


life will be easier if we remain. i wont be suprised if london looses it status its status as the second financail capital of the world, new york being first. the pounds value will drop below the value of the euro (thats why people are buying euros) sure we can run on its own but it wont be the same.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Blue Marlin said:


> life will be easier if we remain. i wont be suprised if london looses it status its status as the second financail capital of the world, new york being first. the pounds value will drop below the value of the euro (thats why people are buying euros) sure we can run on its own but it wont be the same.


These are all your guess about future..right? Same guess was there about Uk not adopting single currency EURO?

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## Blue Marlin

Pakistani Exile said:


> @Blue Marlin
> 
> I have a finance related background as well and believe that the shock from a Brexit would be tremendous for the U.K's fragile recovery. Economic reasoning is the one thing that really tilted the balance for me. Brexiters promises on economics and trade all seem to be based on ifs and are mostly presumptions.


tell me about it


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## Grevion

Lets wait for the results.
If Britain leaves the EU then it will loose all those concessions and will loose on trade and benifits. On the other hand a lot will depends on the economic policies that Britain adopts after leaving.


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## Blue Marlin

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> These are all your guess about future..right? Same guess was there about Uk not adopting single currency EURO?


they are exceptions we wont be getting the euro. so whats the plan if we leave wheres the contingency plan? just sit there and think "oh it will be alright"


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## Pakistani E

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> It will be short term and Uk will do great in the long Run..just watch in case of brexit ..its all just assumptions and predictions which could be wrong



You really want to destroy what's left of U.K's manufacturing sector? 

£158bn imports of manufactured goods from the EU to the UK, 2012
£104bn exports of manufactured goods from the UK to the EU, 2012
£66.3bn stock of foreign direct investment (FDI) from the EU to the UK, 2011
618,000 cars exported in 2012 from the UK to the EU
£94.3bn stock of FDI from the UK to the EU, 2011
£2.7bn R&D spending in 2011 from the EU to the UK







*
% of companies saying this statement best describes their export strategy:*


48%: There is demand in the EU and we will look for ways to increase our share of it
26%: Many of our big customers are in the EU but we are looking to emerging markets for additional opportunities
17%: The state of the EU economy means our focus is on other markets with better prospects
5%: We are not interested in selling to EU markets now or in the future
4%: Challenges in entering other export markets means we will continue to prioritise sales opportunities in the EU

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## livingdead

in the end voted to leave... but hope remain side wins.. else am screwed...


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## waz

I heard the anti-Christ will arise if we vote leave. It's true, the government has said so.

Being old enough to have lived through the ERM fiasco, multiple recessions and being an economist. There is no need to fear a Brexit.


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## waz

Vauban said:


> @Pakistani Exile @Blue Marlin @flamer84
> 
> Brexiters be like ;
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/27923829339
> Booh,how come those baby eaters from Brussels dare to do that ! Boooh



The EU guarantees a minuscule 3.5 months maternity leave on pay, where as in the UK its 6.5 months.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

Pakistani Exile said:


> You really want to destroy what's left of U.K's manufacturing sector?
> 
> £158bn imports of manufactured goods from the EU to the UK, 2012
> £104bn exports of manufactured goods from the UK to the EU, 2012
> £66.3bn stock of foreign direct investment (FDI) from the EU to the UK, 2011
> 618,000 cars exported in 2012 from the UK to the EU
> £94.3bn stock of FDI from the UK to the EU, 2011
> £2.7bn R&D spending in 2011 from the EU to the UK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> % of companies saying this statement best describes their export strategy:*
> 
> 
> 48%: There is demand in the EU and we will look for ways to increase our share of it
> 26%: Many of our big customers are in the EU but we are looking to emerging markets for additional opportunities
> 17%: The state of the EU economy means our focus is on other markets with better prospects
> 5%: We are not interested in selling to EU markets now or in the future
> 4%: Challenges in entering other export markets means we will continue to prioritise sales opportunities in the EU


OMG you guys are really funny  You think If UK leave EU then there will be no trade deal aka import/export will cease to exit and you will never have any trade agreement with Europe and in fact with rest of the world . You will be free to do trade agreement with major economies . well all major economies in the world are countries outside the EU .so to be in EUROPE UNION is not mandatory for economic progress


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## Steve781

Unless the pollsters were considerably wrong even in comparison to last year's election, it seems Remain are going to win.


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## jamal18

Wasn't sure, but voted Remain. Looks like Remain are well ahead in the polls.

Welcome another million Rumanians!


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## A.P. Richelieu

waz said:


> The EU guarantees a minuscule 3.5 months maternity leave on pay, where as in the UK its 6.5 months.


Big Deal, we have 9 months...
A country can decide that without the EU meddling.


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## waz

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Big Deal, we have 9 months...
> A country can decide that without the EU meddling.



I was replying to the prevailing misnomer that some remain folks that have the EU gave us these rights. 
Congratulations on your nine months.


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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> @Pakistani Exile @Blue Marlin @flamer84
> 
> Brexiters be like ;
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/27923829339
> Booh,how come those baby eaters from Brussels dare to do that ! Boooh




This might encourage having kids....awfull....

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## waz

jamal18 said:


> Wasn't sure, but voted Remain. Looks like Remain are well ahead in the polls.
> 
> Welcome another million Rumanians!



Bro if you voted remain you shouldn't have a problem with mass immigration, which will now increase many times over. We just had the latest figures today of 500,000 people net came last year.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

When is the decision due

Any idea where a small area will be flooded with migrants is going to turn country into third world country

If Europe needs some friendly Afghan refugee we will ship them out fed ex packs


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## Proudpakistaniguy

jamal18 said:


> Welcome another million Rumanians!



ROMANIA has been exposed as a lax back door to Britain, where corrupt officials sell EU citizenship for just £1,000.

A bombshell investigation has shown how crooks arrange false papers for Russian, Ukrainian and eastern European nationals so they can work in countries like the UK.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13149...at-allow-thousands-of-illegals-to-work-in-uk/

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## flamer84

jamal18 said:


> Wasn't sure, but voted Remain. Looks like Remain are well ahead in the polls.
> 
> Welcome another million Rumanians!




It's ok though....spoke with somebody who takes care of Romanian workers in the building sector....we're quite needed to build stuff in the UK.No need to thanks us,we actually pay taxes.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> When is the decision due


Voting closed just now so you will have result in the morning


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> ROMANIA has been exposed as a lax back door to Britain, where corrupt officials sell EU citizenship for just £1,000.
> 
> A bombshell investigation has shown how crooks arrange false papers for Russian, Ukrainian and eastern European nationals so they can work in countries like the UK.
> 
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13149...at-allow-thousands-of-illegals-to-work-in-uk/




idiotic to say the least....Romania offers citizenship to Moldovans,which are Romanians.And,we're going to offer that,suck it up.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> idiotic to say the least....Romania offers citizenship to Moldovans,which are Romanians.And,we're going to offer that,suck it up.


sue the sun


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> sue the sun




Don't care...the reality is,as i've gave links before that the Romanian community,and all the EE workers,give more than they receive in the end,unlike non EU immigrants who prooved to be leeches.

Britain should stop welcoming non EU leeches.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Don't care...the reality is,as i've gave links before that the Romanian community,and all the EE workers,give more than they receive in the end,unlike non EU immigrants who prooved to be leeches.
> 
> Britain should stop welcoming non EU leeches.


First of all its not easy for non european to enter in UK on work visa..just check their strict tier system and secondly they have no resource to public fund until they get settle staus or British citizenship which can take 5 to 10 years so dont worry about them. Now its your turn and truth is many eastern European girls/guys were even involved in fake marriage with non European after taking plenty of money from them in order to make them settle in the uk. I am sure you watched this programme called border force

[video]


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> First of all its not easy for non european to enter in UK on work visa..just check their strict tier system and secondly they have no resource to public fund until they get settle staus or British citizenship which can take 5 to 10 years so dont worry about them. Now its your turn and truth is many eastern European girls/guys were even involved in fake marriage with non European after taking plenty of money from them in order to make them settle in the uk. I am sure you watched this programme called border force
> 
> [video]





Long story short ,EU migrants gave back way more than they took as opposed to non EU migrants and as a bonus they don't blow up ,nor do they decapitate British soldiers.

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## jamal18

flamer84 said:


> It's ok though....spoke with somebody who takes care of Romanian workers in the building sector....we're quite needed to build stuff in the UK.No need to thanks us,we actually pay taxes.



I know, I work with them. Tomorrow I will be working with two of them.

Oh and Romania hands over romanian passports to Moldovans for free. Apparently when Romania joined, so did Moldova!

And Flamer84, relax, we're all foreigners. 

I just feel sad for the English, they have become a minority in their own country.


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## flamer84

jamal18 said:


> I know, I work with them. Tomorrow I will be working with two of them.
> 
> Oh and Romania hands over romanian passports to Moldovans for free. Apparently when Romania joined, so did Moldova!
> 
> And Flamer84, relax, we're all foreigners.
> 
> I just feel sad for the English, they have become a minority in their own country.




Most of Moldovans are Romanians.Yes,we give them citizenship.

Don't feel sry for the English,we adapt,respect their country.


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

waz said:


> I was replying to the prevailing misnomer that some remain folks that have the EU gave us these rights.
> Congratulations on your nine months.


Had a colleague with 5 kids.
His wife was working for the local community, day-caring groups of 5-6 year olds in their home.
Out of the nine months per kid, she took two weeks, leaving 8,5 months per kid for him.
That is 42,5 months of holiday over a period of 15 years or almost three months per year.
On top of that, he had six weeks vacation...

I remember a US colleague calling him at the office early June.
Since he was not present, I took the call, and explained that he was on Vacation.
- When will he be back?
- End of August.
The US guy, with two weeks of vacation per year somehow was not happy.


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Long story short ,EU migrants gave back way more than they took as opposed to non EU migrants and as a bonus they don't blow up ,nor do they decapitate British soldiers.


Mashallah 

*Romanians EIGHT times as likely to be jailed here as Britons: Shock new figures show they are worst offenders with 11,000 arrested each year... as foreign nationals fill 1 in 8 UK prison places*

*Figures reveal Romanians top league table for foreign inmates jailed in UK*
*Statistics will reignite the EU immigration debate as election approaches*
*One prisoner in every eight in England and Wales is a foreign national *
*Breakdown by nationality shows Romanians, Albanians and Lithuanians are all proportionately far more likely to be imprisoned than Britons*
*http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2963368/Romanians-EIGHT-times-likely-jailed-Britons.html*

*Up to one in three Romanians arrested, figures show*
*Up to one in three Romanian migrants have been arrested, figures have showed, as the country ranked second in a list of foreigners held over serious offences.*

*http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...in-three-Romanians-arrested-figures-show.html*


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Mashallah
> 
> *Romanians EIGHT times as likely to be jailed here as Britons: Shock new figures show they are worst offenders with 11,000 arrested each year... as foreign nationals fill 1 in 8 UK prison places*
> 
> *Figures reveal Romanians top league table for foreign inmates jailed in UK*
> *Statistics will reignite the EU immigration debate as election approaches*
> *One prisoner in every eight in England and Wales is a foreign national *
> *Breakdown by nationality shows Romanians, Albanians and Lithuanians are all proportionately far more likely to be imprisoned than Britons*
> *http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2963368/Romanians-EIGHT-times-likely-jailed-Britons.html*




Yes,our criminals migrated to the UK.That doesn' t change the fact that most Romanians actually work and don' t go KABOOM.


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Yes,our criminals migrated to the UK.That doesn' t chjange the fact thatmost Romanians actually work and don' t go KABOOM.


they work in jail 
Some 27,725 Romanians were arrested for offences in London over the past five years, Scotland Yard said, including 10 for murder and more than 140 for rape.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...in-three-Romanians-arrested-figures-show.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...n-gangs-looting-lorries-from-moving-cars.html

*Police hunt Romanian ATM thieves who are behind 90% of UK cashpoint fraud*

*http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...manian-ATM-thieves-90-UK-cashpoint-fraud.html*


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## Maira La

flamer84 said:


> the Romanian community...*give more than they receive in the end*



In that case, wouldn't you be better off remaining in Romania?

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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> they work in jail
> Some 27,725 Romanians were arrested for offences in London over the past five years, Scotland Yard said, including 10 for murder and more than 140 for rape.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...in-three-Romanians-arrested-figures-show.html
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...n-gangs-looting-lorries-from-moving-cars.html




Yes,most of the criminals in Romania migrated.There are 180.000 Romanians working in the UK,which makes the fact that they are paying more than they receive.This can't be said about non EU leeches.....Check the numbers,we are contributing,non EU workers/migrants....leech....

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## jamal18

Under law, Moldovans are Moldovans, I know you have ties and consider them Romanins, but international law defines them as Moldovans. You can't legally just hand them a Romanian passport. 

Just like I am a 'pakistani' but Under International law I am British and nothing else. I had exactly this argument with the guys at work, and know it is a sore point for you; and you will go on and on. I will end it here.

And as for the English being a minority, there is more to this than economics. England is the home of the English people. They are right when they complain about large areas of their country being overrun with foreigners. No matter what the perceived benefits.


----------



## flamer84

Maira La said:


> In that case, wouldn't you be better off remaining in Romania?




No.We work,pay taxes,don't commit terror acts and,unlike non EU migrants we actually help the host country.It's ok for the UK to target us in hate speech because we're whites but numbers don't lie...we give more than we take and that's why Cameron is desperate for |"IN"



jamal18 said:


> Under law, Moldovans are Moldovans, I know you have ties and consider them Romanins, but international law defines them as Moldovans. You can't legally just hand them a Romanian passport.
> 
> Just like I am a 'pakistani' but Under International law I am British and nothing else. I had exactly this argument with the guys at work, and know it is a sore point for you; and you will go on and on. I will end it here.
> 
> And as for the English being a minority, there is more to this than economics. England is the home of the English people. They are right when they complain about large areas of their country being overrun with foreigners. No matter what the perceived benefits.




sue us....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Nice strategy to do it while Euro football cup is going on all trouble makers are out of country


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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Yes,most of the criminals in Romania migrated.There are 180.000 Romanians working in the UK,which makes the fact that they are paying more than they receive.This can't be said about non EU leeches.....Check the numbers,we are contributing,non EU workers/migrants....leech....



This was posted by immigration expert when he compared the UK immigration laws for EU and NON EUROPEAN. Read it first

Reflecting on the past few posts, I came to the realisation that many EEA migrants do not appreciate just how biased the system is in their favour, just how extraordinarily privileged they are, simply because they don't go through the same immigration rigmarole that non-EEA migrants do. So, I have summarised the salient points for them. Others please feel free to chip in if I have missed anything out.

Given the fact that the Leave campaign is harping on about an Australian points-based system and how it will help reduce migration, most people (likely including EEA migrants) probably don't realise that the UK already has a Points Based System, comprising of five Tiers. It was introduced in the dying days of the last Labour government, when concerns about immigration started growing. But of course, it does not apply to EEA migrants.

Points Based System
Since the 2010 elections, the rules on almost all the Tiers have been tightened up so considerably as to reduce migration through the PBS. Let's look at the Tiers by turn.

Tier 1 - This tier had many subcategories, but it was broadly meant for highly skilled migrant workers. The number of points (based on salary, age and education) required to qualify for the general category of this Tier (Tier 1 General) was increased in 2010. Entry to that category itself from outside the UK was shut in 2011 and the category was shut completely in 2015. Existing T1G visa holders have until 2018 to acquire ILR.
Sub-categories of this Tier aimed at entrepreneurs and investors require initial capital investment of £50,000 for the former and £2 million for the latter. Not exactly chump change.

Tier 2 - Again with many sub-categories, this category is aimed at sponsored workers. The terms of the general category of this visa has also been tightened up and now requires annual income in excess of £35,000 to qualify for ILR. Furthermore, the company sponsoring the worker itself must be licensed to sponsor the worker and have to submit proof that the position was advertised in the whole EU and that no suitable person was found (The Resident Labour Market Test).
Sub-categories of this Tier include people who are subject of Intra Company Transfer, who are not eligible for ILR at all.

As these are sponsored visas, the company employing them control their future by either terminating or transferring them to another country. If terminated, there is a 60 days window to find another sponsor, another visa category or leave the UK with family.

Tier 3 - Aimed at low-skilled workers, it was never activated because of the inflow of such workers from the A8 countries.

Tier 4 - Aimed at students coming to the UK, it initially used to come with the opinion of continuing onto a Post Study Work visa after the studies. But now, that option is gone and the only way to work in the UK after your studies is to find a Tier 2 sponsor.

Tier 5 - This tier covers a swath of temporary visas that allow work, such as the Youth Mobility visa (the former Working Holidaymaker visa) for people under a certain age or temporary Ministers of Religion, etc. Even here, there has been a tightening of the criteria, though it has been relatively minor. The number of YM visas for some countries have been cut or eliminated altogether.

At no point before ILR are any of the above eligible for benefits.

Family members
The above was an overview of the situations as regards what are generally called the main applicants. But the situation as regards family members is much stricter.

Non-EEA dependents of the main applicants of the Tier system above have their own requirements.

Spouses of British citizens are people settled in the UK
But non-EEA dependents of people on ILR and even British citizens are still subject to significant requirements, such as the requirement of the British citizen/person on ILR to be earning at least £18,600 per annum or have savings of £62,500 in readily accessible bank accounts. 43% of the British population do not meet this earnings requirement and hence it is no surprise this requirement is currently being adjudicated on by the UK Supreme Court. Many moderators on these forums are here because they have been a subject of this requirement and have spent months if not years battling the Home Office for a right so basic as having your spouse in your house.

The spouse is also required to demonstrate a minimal knowledge of English (A1 on the CEFR scale, rising to A2 in October this year) to qualify as a dependent and B1 on the same scale to qualify for ILR.

And the spouses are not eligible for benefits either.

*Parents*
And that is just the spouse. It is practically impossible to get your parents to come and live with you in the UK. The standards for getting your parents to come and live in the UK are that they require assistance with basic actions like bathing, washing, etc AND that such care is not affordable in their home country. Given that you must also prove that you can pay for such care in the UK, it means that only parents from countries with high social care costs (such as the US) are eligible. Is it any wonder that there are only 34 known cases of an Adult Dependent Relative visa being issued SINCE 2012?

*Fees*
The starkest differences between the EEA route and the non-EEA route are in the fees that are charged for non-EEA applications. As leave to remain is granted and not an automatic right, it is possible to pay thousands and have the application fail. Most fees for individual applications run in the thousands of pounds sterling. My personal journey through the system cost me about £5000 and that was a few years ago, when it was cheaper. And I was on a 5 year route. Some people going through the 10 year route pay more.

Also, all non-EEA migrants (no exemption for children) must now pay an Immigration Health Surcharge of £200 per year or part thereof per person per application.

Now imagine a family of four applying to stay in the UK. The fees for the application of the four together would easily be £5000+. And that is not even for five years, but only 2.5 years or less.

These fees go up at the rate of 25%-50% some times. For instance, the fees for ILR jumped from £1093 to £1500 (per person) overnight last year.

None of the fees above include citizenship fees, which are the same for both EEA and non-EEA migrants. And obviously, these are just the application fees. If you want to pay for a solicitor to do the filing for you or because it is a complex case, put aside a few more thousand pounds.


*EEA Migrants*
Waltz in with a maroon passport. It is your right.

Don't just get your non-EEA spouse, get the whole family, parents, siblings, half-brothers and nephews et al (Rahman judgment of the ECJ/CJEU). You need only prove that they were your dependents at some point in the past. You need not even prove financial dependency, emotional dependency is sufficient.

Salary requirements? You must be having a laugh. It is your right to live in the UK.

Come straight in, but broke? Your entire family (EEA & non-EEA) can qualify for benefits on arrival by signing up as job-seekers.

Fees? Pay a princely sum of £65 for any application? What an outrage? (I am not making the last one up. There are threads on these forums where the applicants are genuinely outraged at having to pay £65 for a PR card application. As mentioned above, an ILR application costs £1500 and there is no guarantee of succeeding.)

*Why fees matter*
The current government has stated that it intends to make the immigration system effectively self-funding. If EEA citizens can not be charged more than £65 an application (which the EEA citizens themselves don't need), the cost (and any future increase) must fall disproportionately on non-EEA migrants.

The last time there was so much gap between two classes of people, the French had a revolution (just kidding, in a serious way). But I hope that it throws in sharp relief just why non-EEA migrants would be jealous and envious of EEA migrants and why they would use their vote to have the revolution of a Brexit.

I am aware that some people reading this post will consider it polemic, but I invite them to dispute the facts that I have laid out above. That is what discussion and forums are for.



Maira La said:


> In that case, wouldn't you be better off remaining in Romania?


They send all rubbish to UK. I mean actually educated and talented polish and Romanian stay in their country but its just uneducated unemployed labour class which rush toward UK, Germany etc



flamer84 said:


> No.We work,pay taxes,don't commit terror acts and,unlike non EU migrants we actually help the host country.It's ok for the UK to target us in hate speech because we're whites but numbers don't lie...we give more than we take and that's why Cameron is desperate for |"IN"



numbers dont lie
*BRITAIN’S booming benefits bill is being fuelled by a huge number of eastern Europeans claiming handouts which has DOUBLED in the last five years.*

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...n-migrants-benefits-UK-Britain-Brexit-Cameron

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## Steve781

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> This was posted by immigration expert when he compared the UK immigration laws for EU and NON EUROPEAN. Read it first
> 
> Reflecting on the past few posts, I came to the realisation that many EEA migrants do not appreciate just how biased the system is in their favour, just how extraordinarily privileged they are, simply because they don't go through the same immigration rigmarole that non-EEA migrants do. So, I have summarised the salient points for them. Others please feel free to chip in if I have missed anything out.
> 
> Given the fact that the Leave campaign is harping on about an Australian points-based system and how it will help reduce migration, most people (likely including EEA migrants) probably don't realise that the UK already has a Points Based System, comprising of five Tiers. It was introduced in the dying days of the last Labour government, when concerns about immigration started growing. But of course, it does not apply to EEA migrants.
> 
> Points Based System
> Since the 2010 elections, the rules on almost all the Tiers have been tightened up so considerably as to reduce migration through the PBS. Let's look at the Tiers by turn.
> 
> Tier 1 - This tier had many subcategories, but it was broadly meant for highly skilled migrant workers. The number of points (based on salary, age and education) required to qualify for the general category of this Tier (Tier 1 General) was increased in 2010. Entry to that category itself from outside the UK was shut in 2011 and the category was shut completely in 2015. Existing T1G visa holders have until 2018 to acquire ILR.
> Sub-categories of this Tier aimed at entrepreneurs and investors require initial capital investment of £50,000 for the former and £2 million for the latter. Not exactly chump change.
> 
> Tier 2 - Again with many sub-categories, this category is aimed at sponsored workers. The terms of the general category of this visa has also been tightened up and now requires annual income in excess of £35,000 to qualify for ILR. Furthermore, the company sponsoring the worker itself must be licensed to sponsor the worker and have to submit proof that the position was advertised in the whole EU and that no suitable person was found (The Resident Labour Market Test).
> Sub-categories of this Tier include people who are subject of Intra Company Transfer, who are not eligible for ILR at all.
> 
> As these are sponsored visas, the company employing them control their future by either terminating or transferring them to another country. If terminated, there is a 60 days window to find another sponsor, another visa category or leave the UK with family.
> 
> Tier 3 - Aimed at low-skilled workers, it was never activated because of the inflow of such workers from the A8 countries.
> 
> Tier 4 - Aimed at students coming to the UK, it initially used to come with the opinion of continuing onto a Post Study Work visa after the studies. But now, that option is gone and the only way to work in the UK after your studies is to find a Tier 2 sponsor.
> 
> Tier 5 - This tier covers a swath of temporary visas that allow work, such as the Youth Mobility visa (the former Working Holidaymaker visa) for people under a certain age or temporary Ministers of Religion, etc. Even here, there has been a tightening of the criteria, though it has been relatively minor. The number of YM visas for some countries have been cut or eliminated altogether.
> 
> At no point before ILR are any of the above eligible for benefits.
> 
> Family members
> The above was an overview of the situations as regards what are generally called the main applicants. But the situation as regards family members is much stricter.
> 
> Non-EEA dependents of the main applicants of the Tier system above have their own requirements.
> 
> Spouses of British citizens are people settled in the UK
> But non-EEA dependents of people on ILR and even British citizens are still subject to significant requirements, such as the requirement of the British citizen/person on ILR to be earning at least £18,600 per annum or have savings of £62,500 in readily accessible bank accounts. 43% of the British population do not meet this earnings requirement and hence it is no surprise this requirement is currently being adjudicated on by the UK Supreme Court. Many moderators on these forums are here because they have been a subject of this requirement and have spent months if not years battling the Home Office for a right so basic as having your spouse in your house.
> 
> The spouse is also required to demonstrate a minimal knowledge of English (A1 on the CEFR scale, rising to A2 in October this year) to qualify as a dependent and B1 on the same scale to qualify for ILR.
> 
> And the spouses are not eligible for benefits either.
> 
> *Parents*
> And that is just the spouse. It is practically impossible to get your parents to come and live with you in the UK. The standards for getting your parents to come and live in the UK are that they require assistance with basic actions like bathing, washing, etc AND that such care is not affordable in their home country. Given that you must also prove that you can pay for such care in the UK, it means that only parents from countries with high social care costs (such as the US) are eligible. Is it any wonder that there are only 34 known cases of an Adult Dependent Relative visa being issued SINCE 2012?
> 
> *Fees*
> The starkest differences between the EEA route and the non-EEA route are in the fees that are charged for non-EEA applications. As leave to remain is granted and not an automatic right, it is possible to pay thousands and have the application fail. Most fees for individual applications run in the thousands of pounds sterling. My personal journey through the system cost me about £5000 and that was a few years ago, when it was cheaper. And I was on a 5 year route. Some people going through the 10 year route pay more.
> 
> Also, all non-EEA migrants (no exemption for children) must now pay an Immigration Health Surcharge of £200 per year or part thereof per person per application.
> 
> Now imagine a family of four applying to stay in the UK. The fees for the application of the four together would easily be £5000+. And that is not even for five years, but only 2.5 years or less.
> 
> These fees go up at the rate of 25%-50% some times. For instance, the fees for ILR jumped from £1093 to £1500 (per person) overnight last year.
> 
> None of the fees above include citizenship fees, which are the same for both EEA and non-EEA migrants. And obviously, these are just the application fees. If you want to pay for a solicitor to do the filing for you or because it is a complex case, put aside a few more thousand pounds.
> 
> 
> *EEA Migrants*
> Waltz in with a maroon passport. It is your right.
> 
> Don't just get your non-EEA spouse, get the whole family, parents, siblings, half-brothers and nephews et al (Rahman judgment of the ECJ/CJEU). You need only prove that they were your dependents at some point in the past. You need not even prove financial dependency, emotional dependency is sufficient.
> 
> Salary requirements? You must be having a laugh. It is your right to live in the UK.
> 
> Come straight in, but broke? Your entire family (EEA & non-EEA) can qualify for benefits on arrival by signing up as job-seekers.
> 
> Fees? Pay a princely sum of £65 for any application? What an outrage? (I am not making the last one up. There are threads on these forums where the applicants are genuinely outraged at having to pay £65 for a PR card application. As mentioned above, an ILR application costs £1500 and there is no guarantee of succeeding.)
> 
> *Why fees matter*
> The current government has stated that it intends to make the immigration system effectively self-funding. If EEA citizens can not be charged more than £65 an application (which the EEA citizens themselves don't need), the cost (and any future increase) must fall disproportionately on non-EEA migrants.
> 
> The last time there was so much gap between two classes of people, the French had a revolution (just kidding, in a serious way). But I hope that it throws in sharp relief just why non-EEA migrants would be jealous and envious of EEA migrants and why they would use their vote to have the revolution of a Brexit.
> 
> I am aware that some people reading this post will consider it polemic, but I invite them to dispute the facts that I have laid out above. That is what discussion and forums are for.
> 
> 
> They send all rubbish to UK. I mean actually educated and talented polish and Romanian stay in their country but its just uneducated unemployed labour class which rush toward UK, Germany etc
> 
> 
> 
> numbers dont lie
> *BRITAIN’S booming benefits bill is being fuelled by a huge number of eastern Europeans claiming handouts which has DOUBLED in the last five years.*
> 
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...n-migrants-benefits-UK-Britain-Brexit-Cameron


Don't know why you keep taking shots at each other? Can we just concentrate on the referendum?

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## LeveragedBuyout

It looks like the market knows something.

GBP/JPY strengthened considerably.







Volatility has collapsed, institutions are unwinding their puts.






Gap-up in the UK ETF (EWU) after-hours:






All signs point to victory for "remain," at least according to the market tea-leaves. Disappointing.

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## Steve781

Remain look likely to win given current polls but there's a lot of postal votes which were cast a week ago when the polls were much better for Leave


----------



## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> This was posted by immigration expert when he compared the UK immigration laws for EU and NON EUROPEAN. Read it first
> 
> Reflecting on the past few posts, I came to the realisation that many EEA migrants do not appreciate just how biased the system is in their favour, just how extraordinarily privileged they are, simply because they don't go through the same immigration rigmarole that non-EEA migrants do. So, I have summarised the salient points for them. Others please feel free to chip in if I have missed anything out.
> 
> Given the fact that the Leave campaign is harping on about an Australian points-based system and how it will help reduce migration, most people (likely including EEA migrants) probably don't realise that the UK already has a Points Based System, comprising of five Tiers. It was introduced in the dying days of the last Labour government, when concerns about immigration started growing. But of course, it does not apply to EEA migrants.
> 
> Points Based System
> Since the 2010 elections, the rules on almost all the Tiers have been tightened up so considerably as to reduce migration through the PBS. Let's look at the Tiers by turn.
> 
> Tier 1 - This tier had many subcategories, but it was broadly meant for highly skilled migrant workers. The number of points (based on salary, age and education) required to qualify for the general category of this Tier (Tier 1 General) was increased in 2010. Entry to that category itself from outside the UK was shut in 2011 and the category was shut completely in 2015. Existing T1G visa holders have until 2018 to acquire ILR.
> Sub-categories of this Tier aimed at entrepreneurs and investors require initial capital investment of £50,000 for the former and £2 million for the latter. Not exactly chump change.
> 
> Tier 2 - Again with many sub-categories, this category is aimed at sponsored workers. The terms of the general category of this visa has also been tightened up and now requires annual income in excess of £35,000 to qualify for ILR. Furthermore, the company sponsoring the worker itself must be licensed to sponsor the worker and have to submit proof that the position was advertised in the whole EU and that no suitable person was found (The Resident Labour Market Test).
> Sub-categories of this Tier include people who are subject of Intra Company Transfer, who are not eligible for ILR at all.
> 
> As these are sponsored visas, the company employing them control their future by either terminating or transferring them to another country. If terminated, there is a 60 days window to find another sponsor, another visa category or leave the UK with family.
> 
> Tier 3 - Aimed at low-skilled workers, it was never activated because of the inflow of such workers from the A8 countries.
> 
> Tier 4 - Aimed at students coming to the UK, it initially used to come with the opinion of continuing onto a Post Study Work visa after the studies. But now, that option is gone and the only way to work in the UK after your studies is to find a Tier 2 sponsor.
> 
> Tier 5 - This tier covers a swath of temporary visas that allow work, such as the Youth Mobility visa (the former Working Holidaymaker visa) for people under a certain age or temporary Ministers of Religion, etc. Even here, there has been a tightening of the criteria, though it has been relatively minor. The number of YM visas for some countries have been cut or eliminated altogether.
> 
> At no point before ILR are any of the above eligible for benefits.
> 
> Family members
> The above was an overview of the situations as regards what are generally called the main applicants. But the situation as regards family members is much stricter.
> 
> Non-EEA dependents of the main applicants of the Tier system above have their own requirements.
> 
> Spouses of British citizens are people settled in the UK
> But non-EEA dependents of people on ILR and even British citizens are still subject to significant requirements, such as the requirement of the British citizen/person on ILR to be earning at least £18,600 per annum or have savings of £62,500 in readily accessible bank accounts. 43% of the British population do not meet this earnings requirement and hence it is no surprise this requirement is currently being adjudicated on by the UK Supreme Court. Many moderators on these forums are here because they have been a subject of this requirement and have spent months if not years battling the Home Office for a right so basic as having your spouse in your house.
> 
> The spouse is also required to demonstrate a minimal knowledge of English (A1 on the CEFR scale, rising to A2 in October this year) to qualify as a dependent and B1 on the same scale to qualify for ILR.
> 
> And the spouses are not eligible for benefits either.
> 
> *Parents*
> And that is just the spouse. It is practically impossible to get your parents to come and live with you in the UK. The standards for getting your parents to come and live in the UK are that they require assistance with basic actions like bathing, washing, etc AND that such care is not affordable in their home country. Given that you must also prove that you can pay for such care in the UK, it means that only parents from countries with high social care costs (such as the US) are eligible. Is it any wonder that there are only 34 known cases of an Adult Dependent Relative visa being issued SINCE 2012?
> 
> *Fees*
> The starkest differences between the EEA route and the non-EEA route are in the fees that are charged for non-EEA applications. As leave to remain is granted and not an automatic right, it is possible to pay thousands and have the application fail. Most fees for individual applications run in the thousands of pounds sterling. My personal journey through the system cost me about £5000 and that was a few years ago, when it was cheaper. And I was on a 5 year route. Some people going through the 10 year route pay more.
> 
> Also, all non-EEA migrants (no exemption for children) must now pay an Immigration Health Surcharge of £200 per year or part thereof per person per application.
> 
> Now imagine a family of four applying to stay in the UK. The fees for the application of the four together would easily be £5000+. And that is not even for five years, but only 2.5 years or less.
> 
> These fees go up at the rate of 25%-50% some times. For instance, the fees for ILR jumped from £1093 to £1500 (per person) overnight last year.
> 
> None of the fees above include citizenship fees, which are the same for both EEA and non-EEA migrants. And obviously, these are just the application fees. If you want to pay for a solicitor to do the filing for you or because it is a complex case, put aside a few more thousand pounds.
> 
> 
> *EEA Migrants*
> Waltz in with a maroon passport. It is your right.
> 
> Don't just get your non-EEA spouse, get the whole family, parents, siblings, half-brothers and nephews et al (Rahman judgment of the ECJ/CJEU). You need only prove that they were your dependents at some point in the past. You need not even prove financial dependency, emotional dependency is sufficient.
> 
> Salary requirements? You must be having a laugh. It is your right to live in the UK.
> 
> Come straight in, but broke? Your entire family (EEA & non-EEA) can qualify for benefits on arrival by signing up as job-seekers.
> 
> Fees? Pay a princely sum of £65 for any application? What an outrage? (I am not making the last one up. There are threads on these forums where the applicants are genuinely outraged at having to pay £65 for a PR card application. As mentioned above, an ILR application costs £1500 and there is no guarantee of succeeding.)
> 
> *Why fees matter*
> The current government has stated that it intends to make the immigration system effectively self-funding. If EEA citizens can not be charged more than £65 an application (which the EEA citizens themselves don't need), the cost (and any future increase) must fall disproportionately on non-EEA migrants.
> 
> The last time there was so much gap between two classes of people, the French had a revolution (just kidding, in a serious way). But I hope that it throws in sharp relief just why non-EEA migrants would be jealous and envious of EEA migrants and why they would use their vote to have the revolution of a Brexit.
> 
> I am aware that some people reading this post will consider it polemic, but I invite them to dispute the facts that I have laid out above. That is what discussion and forums are for.
> 
> 
> They send all rubbish to UK. I mean actually educated and talented polish and Romanian stay in their country but its just uneducated unemployed labour class which rush toward UK, Germany etc
> 
> 
> 
> numbers dont lie
> *BRITAIN’S booming benefits bill is being fuelled by a huge number of eastern Europeans claiming handouts which has DOUBLED in the last five years.*
> 
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...n-migrants-benefits-UK-Britain-Brexit-Cameron




Ok,I admitt i'm drunk...i'm bavck home and chilklaxing....tommrow i'm going to read this epic wall of text.But.let's be real,most of the muslim/non Europen community voted leave just because they are afraid of white/non muslim migration to the UK.Eastern Euros are not domesticated and would pummel you into the ground if you speak of sharia nonsense.This is what is really about,you're afraid of fresh blood into the UK.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Steve781 said:


> Don't know why you keep taking shots at each other? Can we just concentrate on the referendum?


Yea sure but take back control is the main slogan for leave side


Steve781 said:


> Remain look likely to win given current polls but there's a lot of postal votes which were cast a week ago when the polls were much better for Leave


Its all depend on undecided voters and which way they will swing today..different polls gave different contradictory results so they are not trustworthy and margin of lead by either side has been very narrow throughout


----------



## Steve781

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Yea sure but take back control is the main slogan for leave side
> 
> Its all depend on undecided voters and which way they will swing today..different polls gave different contradictory results so they are not trustworthy and margin of lead by either side has been very narrow throughout


Pollsters are often wrong it's true. But I can't remember them ever being THIS wrong.


----------



## flamer84

Vauban said:


> @Pakistani Exile @Blue Marlin
> 
> Nigel Frage conceaded defeat within seconds of voting closing ! That's a sign !
> Final polls gives remain 52%.



Britain should surrender nuclear codes to Btruxelles.

#EuroArmyontheMarch

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Steve781 said:


> Pollsters are often wrong it's true. But I can't remember them ever being THIS wrong.


Do you see any chance of rigging especially when governemnt is backing IN side ?


----------



## Steve781

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Do you see any chance of rigging especially when governemnt is backing IN side ?


I don't think they would because I don't think they could get away with it.
Postal votes often result in fraud but this time they might help Leave because of the disproportionate amount of elderly.

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## Vergennes

flamer84 said:


> Britain should surrender nuclear codes to Btruxelles.
> 
> #EuroArmyontheMarch



And be under the froggies' command _s'il vous plaît_ ! Because we froggies want to feel important and wanted. 
-
Anyway,they'll always have the choice to veto the idea.

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> And be under the froggies' command _s'il vous plaît_ ! Because we froggies want to feel important and wanted.




I can make a tonne of jokes right now but the truth is that if they stay.....................they made hell of good choice.

I'm a nationalist.I love my country but look at this forum,this forum actually represnts the world.White/Europeans/Christians/Atheists are hated.....petty problems aside,we need each other....mark my words....

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## Steve781

flamer84 said:


> I can make a tonne of jokes right now but the truth is that if they stay.....................they made hell of good choice.
> 
> I'm a nationalist.I love my country but look at this forum,this forum actually represnts the world.White/Europeans/Christians/Atheists are hated.....petty problems aside,we need each other....mark my words....


I agree with a lot of you saying but the EU doesn't represent this. It is an anti Christian, anti white globalist organisation. Supporting the EU because you love Europe is like supporting FIFA because you love football.

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## flamer84

Steve781 said:


> I agree with a lot of you saying but the EU doesn't represent this. It is an anti Christian, anti white globalist organisation. Supporting the EU because you love Europe is like supporting FIFA because you love football.




True...but I believe we can reform the EU.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> .White/Europeans/Christians/Atheists are hated.....


Bullshit. You are actually islamphobe bigot so stop playing victim card..where you got this impression that White/Europeans/Christians/Atheists are hated in here ?

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## Vergennes

flamer84 said:


> I can make a tonne of jokes right now but the truth is that if they stay.....................they made hell of good choice.
> 
> I'm a nationalist.I love my country but look at this forum,this forum actually represnts the world.White/Europeans/Christians/Atheists are hated.....petty problems aside,we need each other....mark my words....



If you remember some years ago,I was against the European Union and wanted our country to leave it,but after wisely thinking,I am in favor of a pan-european union,because we are stronger together and need to be a powerful bloc in this century.
Now I don't say the EU is an utopia,it has a lot of problems,but it needs to be reformed (If it wants to survive..) and so saved. 
We are currently talking with Germany about that and they are ready for massive changes.

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## waz

flamer84 said:


> muslim/non Europen community voted leave just because they are afraid of white/non muslim migration to the UK..



They didn't actually. The Muslim community in London voted remain overwhelmingly. As for white/non-Muslim immigration, when the Albanians, Bosnians and Turks join, that migration will dwarf the latter. 

All in all I the UK is screwed anyway. Patriotism died years back and if remain win tonight, which is looking likely, that will only confirm it. 

As the old saying goes, let the last person turn the light off.....


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## jamal18

waz said:


> They didn't actually. The Muslim community in London voted remain overwhelmingly. As for white/non-Muslim immigration, when the Albanians, Bosnians and Turks join, that migration will dwarf the latter.
> 
> All in all I the UK is screwed anyway. Patriotism died years back and if remain win tonight, which is looking likely, that will only confirm it.
> 
> As the old saying goes, let the last person turn the light off.....



Growing up, I was always told that the population of Britain was 56 million.

I almost fell off my chair when I learnt today that it is 65 million!

Standing room only?


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Bullshit. You are actually islamphobe bigot so stop playing victim card





Vauban said:


> If you remember some years ago,I was against the European Union and wanted our country to leave it,but after wisely thinking,I am in favor of a pan-european union,because we are stronger together and need to be a powerful bloc in this century.
> Now I don't say the EU is an utopia,it has a lot of problems,but it needs to be reformed (If it wants to survive..) and so saved.
> We are currently talking with Germany about that and they are ready for massive changes.




You'd have to be blind as not to see the truth.Yes,there are differences between Europeans....but what's out there ?....I was actually taking with a Hungarian yesterday and he agreed..."We're hated dude....weather Your'e a non coloniser like Romanins or Hungarians or a French"....We have low birth rates....but this is who we are...in the end,put a Romanian in France and he will adapt...put algerians....


There is 1.3 billiuon China....1.2 billion India and muslims who despise modernity....Not one Euro country can make it alone....

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## waz

jamal18 said:


> Growing up, I was always told that the population of Britain was 56 million.
> 
> I almost fell off my chair when I learnt today that it is 65 million!
> 
> Standing room only?



That will rise to 80 million. 
I hope the remainers all pat themselves on the back. Well done, it reminds me of Turkeys coming to Christmas lunch.


----------



## flamer84

waz said:


> They didn't actually. The Muslim community in London voted remain overwhelmingly. As for white/non-Muslim immigration, *when the Albanians, Bosnians and Turks join, *that migration will dwarf the latter.
> 
> All in all I the UK is screwed anyway. Patriotism died years back and if remain win tonight, which is looking likely, that will only confirm it.
> 
> As the old saying goes, let the last person turn the light off.....



Except that they will never join.

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## waz

flamer84 said:


> Except that they will never join.



Having been to Brussels half a dozen times, and spoken to people in the parliament, all I am going to say "famous last words". You haven't seen nothing yet. 
The scope of this project goes far and wide.


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> You'd have to be blind as not to see the truth.Yes,there are differences between Europeans....but what's out there ?....I was actually taking with a Hungarian yesterday and he agreed..."We're hated dude....weather Your'e a non coloniser like Romanins or Hungarians or a French"....We have low birth rates....but this is who we are...in the end,put a Romanian in France and he will adapt...put algerians....
> 
> 
> There is 1.3 billiuon China....1.2 billion India and muslims who despise modernity....Not one Euro country can make it alone....


Despise modernity ? What is modernity? Someone is modern only if they adopt western life style and culture which again differ even within europe ? I am not modern if i disagree with your political or moral views? You are calling yourself christian but have you ever tried to live as per scripture of Christianity ? What actually make you a christian? You can be modern within your own lifestyle and within your own culture so come outside of your fears, complexes and bigotry


----------



## flamer84

waz said:


> Having been to Brussels half a dozen times, and spoken to people in the parliament, all I am going to say "famous last words". You haven't seen nothing yet.
> The scope of this project goes far and wide.




I know where this is going but even Martin ScHhulz took a U turn recently.The plebes still have power.


----------



## Steve781

Vauban said:


> If you remember some years ago,I was against the European Union and wanted our country to leave it,but after wisely thinking,I am in favor of a pan-european union,because we are stronger together and need to be a powerful bloc in this century.
> Now I don't say the EU is an utopia,it has a lot of problems,but it needs to be reformed (If it wants to survive..) and so saved.
> We are currently talking with Germany about that and they are ready for massive changes.


Nobody in the Leave campaign wants to turn their back on Europe completely. They think countries should cooperate but not as part of a political union. There is no union between the US and Canada or Australia and New Zealand and they still work closely together.

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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Despise modernity ? What is modernity? Someone is modern only if they adopt western life style and culture which again differ even within europe ? I am not modern if i disagree with your political or moral views? You are calling yourself christian but have you ever tried to live as per scripture of Christianity ? What actually make you a christian? You can be modern within your own lifestyle and within your own culture so come outside of your fears, complexes and bigotry




Yes,in Europe,you have to adopt Western life style to be modern.Anything else is just not accepted...don't like it ? there is always Saudi Arabia for you

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Yes,in Europe,you have to adopt Western life style to be modern.Anything else is just not accepted...don't like it ? there is always Saudi Arabia for you


You are the most idiot Romanian i ever came across..Ever heard about something called religious freedom?


----------



## flamer84

Steve781 said:


> Nobody in the Leave campaign wants to turn their back on Europe completely. They think countries should cooperate but not as part of a political union. There is no union between the US and Canada or Australia and New Zealand and they still work closely together.




What do these countries have in common and why are you not working so closely with Pakistan to ?



Proudpakistaniguy said:


> You are the most idiot Romanian i ever came across..Ever heard about something called religious freedom?




Religious freedom in Europe was abused and gave wide birth to terrorism.This must change


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> What do these countries have in common and why are you not working so closely with Pakistan to ?


Sure there should be more Co-operation with all commonwealth countries not just Pakistan to burn your romanian *** further and keep this single EU army to yourself


----------



## Steve781

flamer84 said:


> What do these countries have in common and why are you not working so closely with Pakistan to ?


That was the point I was trying to make. Political union isn't necessary to have close relations.
I think the reason there's much more dislike of the EU here than in the rest of the continent is because England hasn't been conquered in nearly a thousand years. Every other country in Europe has, many in living memory. So having a foreign body making so much of your decisions doesn't feel like as much of a loss to you, as compared to the brutal conquerors of the past it seems pretty benevolent in comparison.


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Religious freedom in Europe was abused and gave wide birth to terrorism.This must change


No terrorism has more to do with wrong foreign polices than religious freedom or equality..Broad your thinking kid

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## Vergennes

Gibraltar votes to remain.

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## jamal18

flamer84 said:


> You'd have to be blind as not to see the truth.Yes,there are differences between Europeans....but what's out there ?....I was actually taking with a Hungarian yesterday and he agreed..."We're hated dude....weather Your'e a non coloniser like Romanins or Hungarians or a French"....We have low birth rates....but this is who we are...in the end,put a Romanian in France and he will adapt...put algerians....
> 
> 
> There is 1.3 billiuon China....1.2 billion India and Muslims who despise modernity....Not one Euro country can make it alone....



Turkey is one of the world's fastest growing economies and out performed virtually every other country on the planet.
Malaysia has a standard of living on par with Europe and an infrastructure better than any eastern European country. How many Malaysian immigrants do you see?
Indonesia is set to become one of the world's largest economies, a member of BRIC.

And what are the provinces of Romania like? You know full well that the Romanian government introduced breakfast in primary schools because they knew that many of their children weren't eating. One of the Romanians I am working with and mentioned earlier told me two days ago that as a child he remembered days when he didn't eat.

Care to argue with these facts?

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> Gibraltar votes to remain.
> 
> View attachment 313004​




I saw Spain disliking this on FB 



jamal18 said:


> Turkey is one of the world's fastest growing economies and out performed virtually every other country on the planet.
> Malaysia has a standard of living on par with Europe and an infrastructure better than any eastern European country. How many Malaysian immigrants do you see?
> Indonesia is set to become one of the world's largest economies, a member of BRIC.
> 
> And what are the provinces of Romania like? You know full well that the Romanian government introduced breakfast in primary schools because they knew that many of their children weren't eating. One of the Romanians I am working with and mentioned earlier told me two days ago that as a child he remembered days when he didn't eat.
> 
> Care to argue with these facts?




Romania is here nd there...not the best,not the worst...there are hungry people in the US...everywhere.But,if you'd like to think that we're a dystopian hellholle,go at it...

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## Nevsky

Vauban said:


> I am in favor of a pan-european union


You mean something like Richard von Coudenhove ideas for Europian Federation or something more like Russian Federation or US?I can't see such a things happening in our life time.

Actually there were such ideas here in the balkans.For a Balkan Federation with all south slavs + Romania and Greece in it.Or just a country with all south slavs in it and if Tito and Stalin did not split, Yugoslavia was going to be a way bigger with Bulgaria.
Anyway isnt that beautiful:


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> I saw Spain disliking this on FB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Romania is here nd there...not the best,not the worst...there are hungry people in the US...everywhere.But,if you'd like to think that we're a dystopian hellholle,go at it...



stop trolling and spoiling the topic. You dont have right of vote so you should not be even here discussing referendum and nice to read when bigot like yourself talk about modernity ..spare this topic


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

Leave votes 68,614 Vs remain 91,915 votes

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## Steve781

Vauban said:


> Gibraltar votes to remain.
> 
> View attachment 313004​


I'm going on holiday to France for two weeks tomorrow? What will I say if we Leave?

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## flamer84

If somebody didn't get the picture,it was expected that Newcastle should have a 10 point lead for LEAVE...

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## Nevsky

flamer84 said:


> Except trhat Romanians aren't Slavs.....


Greeks are not slavs too.With Greece, Romania and Albania is a Balkan Federation that is showed on the picture.Former Yugoslavia and Bulgaria is the completed Yugoslavia.


----------



## Steve781

BRICSFTW said:


> Greeks are not slavs too.With Greece, Romania and Albania is a Balkan Federation that is showed on the picture.Former Yugoslavia and Bulgaria is the completed Yugoslavia.


Albania in the EU. I hope nobody is really that stupid.

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## flamer84

BRICSFTW said:


> Greeks are not slavs too.With Greece, Romania and Albania is a Balkan Federation that is showed on the picture.Former Yugoslavia and Bulgaria is the completed Yugoslavia.




Why ? I very much like the Europe of today...ofcourse,minus the gays and the abhorring welfare system


----------



## ultron

It does not matter who votes. It only matters who counts. Think about it. EU is Illuminati's brainchild. No way Illuminati allows Britain to out. A simple computer program easily generates voting result.

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## flamer84

Sunderland votes LEAVE..But they're rednecks.....


----------



## KediKesenFare3

BRICSFTW said:


> You mean something like Richard von Coudenhove ideas for Europian Federation or something more like Russian Federation or US?I can't see such a things happening in our life time.
> 
> Actually there were such ideas here in the balkans.For a Balkan Federation with all south slavs + Romania and Greece in it.Or just a country with all south slavs in it and if Tito and Stalin did not split, Yugoslavia was going to be a way bigger with Bulgaria.
> Anyway isnt that beautiful:











flamer84 said:


> Sunderland votes LEAVE..But they're rednecks.....


Did you vote?


----------



## flamer84

ultron said:


> It does not matter who votes. It only matters who counts. Think about it. EU is Illuminati's brainchild. No way Illuminati allows Britain to out. A simple computer program easily generates voting result.




2025...US gets nuked.EU must be the only superpower

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## Proudpakistaniguy

ultron said:


> It does not matter who votes. It only matters who counts. Think about it. EU is Illuminati's brainchild. No way Illuminati allows Britain to out. A simple computer program easily generates voting result.


I still have serious doubt about rigging.. dont mind any result as long as its fair


----------



## flamer84

KediKesenFare said:


> Did you vote?



With their lax laws I could have....but I prefered to be faire....NO

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## Proudpakistaniguy

161,744 vs 158,536

leave got lead



KediKesenFare said:


> Did you vote?


European have no right to vote. British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens who live in the UK, along with Britons who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, are eligible to vote

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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> 161,744 vs 158,536
> 
> leave got lead
> 
> 
> European have no right to vote. British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens who live in the UK, along with Britons who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, are eligible to vote





I could have voted.....


----------



## KediKesenFare3

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> 161,744 vs 158,536
> 
> leave got lead
> 
> 
> European have no right to vote. British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens who live in the UK, along with Britons who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, are eligible to vote



@flamer84 

Aren't you a dual citizenship holder?


----------



## Steve781

I'll be heading to bed now as have to get up early tomorrow. Don't know what to expect when I awake.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> I could have voted.....


yes if you fall in one of those category mentioned above

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-British-Irish-Commonwealth-Citizens-European


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## flamer84

KediKesenFare said:


> @flamer84
> 
> Aren't you a dual citizenship holder?




No mate.Just Romanian but I could have voted for my landlord who didn't bother.I prefwerd to be at home,drinking and having fun.

Brits should choose their own path.


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

Steve781 said:


> I'll be heading to bed now as have to get up early tomorrow. Don't know what to expect when I awake.


dont worry..get into sleep..i think full result will be known when you will wake up at 7 am


----------



## Nevsky

flamer84 said:


> Why ? I very much like the Europe of today...ofcourse,minus the gays and the abhorring welfare system


Well Im not a big fan of EU and NATO probably bcs Im a half russian, but yea its not that bad.
All of these pan slavic ideas are dead and buried after the collapse of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia so is the pan balkanism, we have to live in the future, which is the EU as it seems.

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## flamer84

CNN debate...Christian Amanpour: "whis is this campaign focused on EU migrants who contribute more than they take to the UK economy?"

IMHO Britain will survive with Remain.......anything else and it will only get lechees,as the numbers show by now

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Leave Votes 266,721 Vs Remain votes 259,790

8 out of 382 done

Leaves are getting more than what they expected so far


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## flamer84

Swindon...LEAVES


----------



## jaunty

It's a very tight race and as of now "Leave" is winning. If the final result is to leave EU but Scotland votes to remain in it, I expect another independence referendum in Scotland soon and this time SNP would have a stronger case.

BTW this made me laugh

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## KediKesenFare3

It really is an exciting and nerve-racking referendum!

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## kuge



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## BDforever

jaunty said:


> It's a very tight race and as of now "Leave" is winning. If the final result is to leave EU but Scotland votes to remain in it, I expect another independence referendum in Scotland soon and this time SNP would have a stronger case.
> 
> BTW this made me laugh


beat this ..




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=907532752686534

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## Proudpakistaniguy

London and Scotland gave big boost to remain but rest of the part leave is doing beyond expectation

LEAVE *4,080,626* vs REMAIN *4,063,630 *

115 out of 382 has done

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## sims1729

I think security might trump economics here...this is mind boggling...what a divided country


----------



## KediKesenFare3



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## Proudpakistaniguy

KediKesenFare said:


>


_I am south of England and it seem they are all in favour of leave and these are white english dominated areas. Scotland is all yellow while wales is fifty fifty_

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## KediKesenFare3

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> _I am south of England and it seem they are all in favour of leave and these are white english dominated areas_



You could comment the results from time to time. This would be nice.

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## Proudpakistaniguy




----------



## KediKesenFare3

Btw, 16.8 million votes needed to win referendum.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

votes by region

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## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


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## Proudpakistaniguy

when the result started to come one pound was equal to 154 Rupees
and now one pound is 144 Rupees..good business for someone do Forex and betting

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## type93

The possibility of being in the same union with turkey was enough for Brits to not think twice and endure whatever risks associated with brexit. I don't blame them at all


----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## KediKesenFare3




----------



## ultron

update 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## Roybot

Looks like Britain will leave


----------



## KediKesenFare3



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## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

KediKesenFare said:


>


There was only one short period when remain took lead otherwise it was always Leave side who was leading..now last results will be interesting ..Ukip farage already claimed victory lol

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## jaunty

BBC commentators are looking glum.


----------



## Sliver

all the brits laughing at the US for voting for donald trump.. looks like they are going through their own trump-esque moment


----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## KediKesenFare3




----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy



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## jaunty

England has voted overwhelming in favor of leaving, so has Wales. Scotland is in favor of remaining in the EU, independence reference 2 coming soon.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well a wise decision considering impact to UK economy from inflow of "outsiders"

An economy can only sustain so much influx of new comers

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## KediKesenFare3

I know Brussels very well. EU will force them to hold a second referendum.


----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## jaunty

KediKesenFare said:


> I know Brussels very well. EU will force them to hold a second referendum.



Not going to happen with 70% voter turnout.


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

jaunty said:


> England has voted overwhelming in favor of leaving, so has Wales. Scotland is in favor of remaining in the EU, independence reference 2 coming soon.


London voted for remain as well


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

KediKesenFare said:


> I know Brussels very well. EU will force them to hold a second referendum.


No chance because EU boss said out is out


----------



## jaunty

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> London voted for remain as well



Yeah. London is the only saving grace for the remain campaign in England, otherwise it is a landslide

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## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## KediKesenFare3




----------



## Beidou2020

The remain will take the lead magically as the British intelligence agencies come to the party.

Just watch!


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

jaunty said:


> Yeah. London is the only saving grace for the remain campaign in England, otherwise it is a landslide


I am happy with the result of my area south/east of England..all in favour of leave which made the difference..still close though


----------



## Beidou2020

MI5 will do their tricks and make sure 'remain' wins.


----------



## KediKesenFare3

Look at this chart!


----------



## jaunty

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> I am happy with the result of my area south/east of England..all in favour of leave which made the difference..still close though



I think the final result would be somewhere between 51 to 52 % for Leave, close but still a decisive mandate.

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## Jungibaaz

Utterly disappointing, the British electorate has shown little of their ability think beyond a few days and a few tabloid headlines. 

There are some benefits that would come from Brexit. But it instils no confidence in me that we are looking almost to leave now. All signs in the very long term point to economic decline.


----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## cleverrider

Beidou2020 said:


> The remain will take the lead magically as the British intelligence agencies come to the party.
> 
> Just watch!



This is not China


----------



## KediKesenFare3



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## cleverrider

Jungibaaz said:


> Utterly disappointing, the British electorate has shown little of their ability think beyond a few days and a few tabloid headlines.
> 
> There are some benefits that would come from Brexit. But it instils no confidence in me that we are looking almost to leave now. All signs in the very long term point to economic decline.




Yes the economy will be hit, but the NHS, Housing, Schools, infrastructure, can’t take it anymore.


----------



## KediKesenFare3

*UK VOTES TO LEAVE*
*YEAAAAAHHHH!!!!*


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

KediKesenFare said:


> Look at this chart!


It was expected because of uncertainty..will get settle in future

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## jaunty

ITV has called it for Leave.


----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy




----------



## jaunty




----------



## LeveragedBuyout

Congratulations, Britain! If the EU won't have you, how about giving NAFTA a try?


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

Those people were smart who converted their pounds into dollars and EURO yesterday

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## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...lt-live-counting-leave-remain-brain-in-europe


----------



## sims1729

Jungibaaz said:


> Utterly disappointing, the British electorate has shown little of their ability think beyond a few days and a few tabloid headlines.
> 
> There are some benefits that would come from Brexit. But it instils no confidence in me that we are looking almost to leave now. All signs in the very long term point to economic decline.


This will actually lead to economic growth in the long term coz decision making will become more decisive..euro is doomed from the start...the cultural differences are too huge ....you can be trade bloc as Europe..thats fine and sustainable...but when angela merkel starts accepting so many refugees who could 5 years down the line end up anywhere in europe..other countries are gonna react big time

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## Beidou2020

cleverrider said:


> This is not China



 that's the problem.

That's why UK is now full of 3rd world immigrants.


----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## waz

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Congratulations, Britain! If the EU won't have you, how about giving NAFTA a try?



Thank you my brother. 

The US is our dear ally. Please stand by us.



flamer84 said:


> IMHO Britain will survive with Remain.......anything else and it will only get lechees,as the numbers show by now




LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my dear friend in your own words "that's all folks".

FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## C130

congrats to the UK for gaining it's independence from the supra-natural entity known as the EU.

you will have two years to work out the details of this divorce, it's not like you are out of the EU at this moment.

it's the EU that is scared that other countries will hold their own referendums like the Netherlands and win!!!.


EU chose millions of migrants over the interests of it's native sons, now they reap what they sow.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

waz said:


> Thank you my brother.
> 
> The US is our dear ally. Please stand by us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> my dear friend in your own words "that's all folks".
> 
> FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Your london cheated us


----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## Beidou2020

F*** the EU and the globalist terrorists.

Go Farage!
Go Trump!


----------



## waz

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Your london cheated us



Lol how do you think i felt? I campaigned by myself in London lol.

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## cleverrider

Beidou2020 said:


> that's the problem.
> 
> That's why UK is now full of 3rd world immigrants.




Controlled immigration is good for the UK. China in itself is a 3rd world country, plenty of chinese come here every year. They are welcome as long as they spend their CASH


----------



## ultron

waz said:


> Lol how do you think i felt? I campaigned by myself in London lol.




For which side?


----------



## Maira La

_Leave _wins!

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## waz

ultron said:


> For which side?



Leave my friend. Read my posts for the last several years. I was one of the main people for Vote Leave in Central London.

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## Beidou2020

cleverrider said:


> Controlled immigration is good for the UK. China in itself is a 3rd world country, plenty of chinese come here every year. They are welcome as long as they spend their CASH





UK is run by non-Brits.

UK is run by foreigners.

3rd world immigrants from South Asia, Africa, Middle East have destroyed UK.

London is like Mumbai.


----------



## cleverrider

waz said:


> Lol how do you think i felt? I campaigned by myself in London lol.



It made more sense to stay in the EU, but I just had enough of seeing eastern European faces, From the polish corner shops to their stealing and roaming around.

.

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## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## Madali

Holy shit, didn't expect this. These are interesting times to be in.


----------



## Beidou2020

This is non-binding people. Nothing will happen.


----------



## pakdefender

OK so leave it is

Leaving aside the shouting , some questions

What are implications for the Euro as a currency ? 

What are implications for the Pound as a currency ? 

Will this lead to Scotland referendum II ?

What happens to visa-free travel between European countries and Britain ?

Will EU citizens require work permits to work in Britain ?

Will EU citizens require visa to travel to Britain ?

What does this mean for Northern Ireland ?


----------



## cleverrider

Beidou2020 said:


> London is like Mumbai.



@waz Our chinese friend finally lost it

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## ultron

Looks like UKIP is getting a huge boost after tonight.


----------



## The Sandman

oh well...


----------



## third eye

pakdefender said:


> OK so leave it is
> 
> Leaving aside the shouting , some questions
> 
> What are implications for the Euro as a currency ?
> 
> What are implications for the Pound as a currency ?
> 
> Will this lead to Scotland referendum II ?
> 
> What happens to visa-free travel between European countries and Britain ?
> 
> Will EU citizens require work permits to work in Britain ?
> 
> Will EU citizens require visa to travel to Britain ?
> 
> What does this mean for Northern Ireland ?



Could you please tag me when & if you get replies to these questions.

I had pretty much the same thoughts .


----------



## waz

cleverrider said:


> It made more sense to stay in the EU, but I just had enough of seeing eastern European faces, From the polish corner shops to their stealing and roaming around.
> 
> .



My friend, they are here to stay. But we will have strict controls now. EE people who have set up lives and families here are our people as well. 
Also no, it made no sense to stay in the EU. They can take their disgusting flag with them as well.


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## Beidou2020

cleverrider said:


> @waz Our chinese friend finally lost it



Currently, London is like Mumbai, give it 5 more years of uncontrolled 3rd world immigrants and UK will give Somalia a run for its money as a failed state


----------



## Guynextdoor2

Thank you BREXIT! Now Britain is officially a lame and dud country. It always was, but we can now officially see it so!!!!!


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## Beidou2020

Immigration should only be by highly skilled people, not low class peasants.

This is a vote against immigration.

Immigration of low class peasants is destroying the Western world.

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## waz

Guynextdoor2 said:


> Thank you BREXIT! Now Britain is officially a lame and dud country. It always was, but we can now officially see it so!!!!!



Lol, that's why so many Indians come here. Please do yourself a favour and talk sense.

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## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


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## jaunty

waz said:


> Lol how do you think i felt? I campaigned by myself in London lol.



Do you expect to see another independence referendum in Scotland? I have a feeling that SNP will give it another strong push soon, given that Scotland has voted overwhelmingly in favor of EU. It was in fact a main issue in the Scottish referendum. The "no" side campaigned hard to make people believe that they'd be out of EU if they voted for independence. It's funny how it turned out now that England essentially dragged Scotland out of EU with it.

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## waz

jaunty said:


> Do you expect to see another independence referendum in Scotland? I have a feeling that SNP will give it another strong push soon given that Scotland has voted overwhelmingly in favor of EU. It was in fact a main issue in the Scottish referendum. The "no" side campaigned hard to make people believe that they'd be out of EU if they voted for independence. It's funny how it turned out now that England essentially dragged Scotland out of EU with it.



The Scots will look at Europe and run a mile. The independence idea isn't very popular there. Do also remember that their islands will break away from Scotland leaving them without oil and gas....It's not that simple. Do remember that Wales and England voted clearly in. The Scot nationalists don't have collective bargaining power.


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## pakdefender

16.8 million votes are needed for Leave to win , currently they have 15.7 million with 92% of the votes counted


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## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis



pakdefender said:


> 16.8 million votes are needed for Leave to win , currently they have 15.7 million with 92% of the votes counted




Is 16.8 million a bit over half?


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## T-123456

The UK decides to leave,what now?


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## pakdefender

ultron said:


> update
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is 16.8 million a bit over half?



about 52%


----------



## ultron

pakdefender said:


> about 52%




Why 52%?

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


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## jaunty

waz said:


> The Scots will look at Europe and run a mile. The independence idea isn't very popular there. Do also remember that their islands will break away from Scotland leaving them without oil and gas....It's not that simple. Do remember that Wales and England voted clearly in. *The Scot nationalists don't have collective bargaining power.*



Well they are the ones in power in Scotland and last time 45% people voted for independence. So it is not exactly an unpopular idea. They only need a 6% swing and this is a huge development. Besides, not sure how you are claiming that "Scots will look at Europe and run a mile" when the whole of Scotland voted to remain in the EU just today.

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## Ryuzaki

Yesterday 1 Pound= 97.61 Indian Rupees
Today 1 Pound= 90.75 Indian Rupees


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## pakdefender

ultron said:


> Why 52%?
> 
> update
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis



I suppose to rule out ambiguity (!?) not sure though

but 16.8 million votes for Leave is being called out as the number needed






If that is not reached perhaps there will be wiggle room


----------



## Stephen Cohen

British Parliament can OVER RULE this decision 

They are NOT bound to accept it


----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


----------



## Salza

T-123456 said:


> The UK decides to leave,what now?



Tougher immigration laws.

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## waz

jaunty said:


> Well they are the ones in power in Scotland and last time 45% people voted for independence. So it is not exactly an unpopular idea. They only need a 6% swing and this is a huge development. Besides, not sure how you are claiming that "Scots will look at Europe and run a mile" when the whole of Scotland voted to remain in the EU just today.



They are in power, but they don't have a majority in parliament. Yes they had 44.7% but that was against 55.3, statistically that is very hard to close. Europe is in dire straights at the moment. Other states will also vote against Scotland , do you know about the separatist problems in Spain? Spain has said they would boycott such membership. They would also have to adopt the Euro which they don't want to do and accept a whole raft of new legislation that the Scotts don't want.

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## Beidou2020

LEAVE need another 249,404 votes to win.

370/382 areas counted.

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## waz

Stephen Cohen said:


> British Parliament can OVER RULE this decision
> 
> They are NOT bound to accept it



No they can't. They are bound legally to make it happen. Do you realise that such an act would literally unleash hell on the streets. The news channels are openly talking about implementing the next steps. No one is talking about parliament preventing this.

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## Beidou2020

Update:

LEAVE need another 37,665 votes to win.

373/382 areas counted.

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## jaunty

waz said:


> Yes they had 44.7% but that was against 55.3, statistically that is very hard to close.



Statistically they need a swing of 6% as I said before, not a huge margin by any means. In the light of current events, that's a very manageable swing.



waz said:


> Europe is in dire straights at the moment. Other states will also vote against Scotland , do you know about the separatist problems in Spain? Spain has said they would boycott such membership. They would also have to adopt the Euro which they don't want to do and accept a whole raft of new legislation that the Scotts don't want.



Once the UK is out of the EU, Spain's threats won't mean much. The UK is already out, so Scotland's entry would be an addition to the structure, I don't think there would be any opposition to that.

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## KediKesenFare3

IT'S OVER, LEAVE WINS

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## Beidou2020

LEAVE campaign have OFFICIALLY won.

The 16.8 million vote threshold has been crossed be LEAVE campaign.

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## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


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## Beidou2020

Globalists just lost.

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## Stephen Cohen

waz said:


> No they can't. They are bound legally to make it happen. Do you realise that such an act would literally unleash hell on the streets. The news channels are openly talking about implementing the next steps. No one is talking about parliament preventing this.



I believe that The British Government will demonstrate to the people the implications 
of leaving EU -- a little controlled chaos -- Before Overruling the decision 

Only Then the Brexit supporters will realise their folly 

Those who have voted for Brexit have done for Stopping Migration 

Their concerns can be sorted out without leaving the EU 

The Brexit supporters are grossly OVER estimating British economic strength 

British economy is NOTHING without EU


----------



## ultron

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis

update

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...un/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis


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## pakdefender

Once upon a time Britain could claim to be "Great" and back it up with influence ,power and achievements , but not any more

Britain always had "Island Mentality" , always suspicious of Europe , who the British saw and see as the "others"

This is not about immigrants , this is Britain being Britain

Europe for its part has in the past shown aggression towards Britain , whether it was Spain (Armada) , France(Napolen) , Germay (Hitler) , so the collective memory of Britain towards Europe is one of suspicion , that's part of the reason the older generation does not want more control from a new centre of power based in mainland Europe.


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## jaunty

@waz Nicola Sturgeon is already highlighting the fact that Scotland has voted to remain in the EU, despite an overall loss. Watch out. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746185725356343298

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## Stephen Cohen

@waz 

The TRANSITION itself would be so painful -- That Brexiters would have their
*heads in their hands

*





@waz

Britain WON the Second World War 

But NOW GERMANY will PUT Britain in its place --Show them the Reality that 
UK is a weak economy 

And USA will not come to UK's rescue


----------



## shree835

What about the EUROFIGHTER now....???....Will UK pullout their ENGINE....?


----------



## Hyde

What a terrible day in the history of UK.

No doubt why more educated class voted for Remain.

Now uncertainty prevails for the future of scotland and the whole of Europe. Pound at record lows, already lost about 17p of 1700 points overnight.

I wont be surprised if its slashed by another 5%. (lost more than 10% value overnight)

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## ChineseTiger1986

@mike2000 is back do you understand what I mean?

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Where is Dodgy dave? Did he gave any official statememt?


----------



## Beidou2020

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> @mike2000 is back do you understand what I mean?
> 
> View attachment 313098
> 
> 
> View attachment 313102



Commonwealth nations should also leave this outdated group.

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## KediKesenFare3

'Brexit' to be followed by Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Fruckoff. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovakout. Latervia. Byegium.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beidou2020 said:


> Commonwealth nations should also leave this outdated group.



It doesn't matter that Britain is not the suzerain of these states anymore.

They are still strongly culturally bounded with two enormous resources rich countries like Canada and Australia.

I think Britain wants to play her own empire game again instead of remaining as a lackey of her former rebellious child.



KediKesenFare said:


> 'Brexit' to be followed by Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Fruckoff. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovakout. Latervia. Byegium.



France and Germany will be the next to exit, since the EU is not relevant anymore at this point.

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## pakdefender

Whats the view of the "every day joe" in Germany over this ? 

don't we have some members from Germany


----------



## yuba

Aether said:


> What a terrible day in the history of UK.
> 
> No doubt why more educated class voted for Remain.
> 
> Now uncertainty prevails for the future of scotland and the whole of Europe. Pound at record lows, already lost about 17p of 1700 points overnight.
> 
> I wont be surprised if its slashed by another 5%. (lost more than 10% value overnight)


Do you think the eu wil let us keep free trade without political union.I think norway has some agreement along those lines


----------



## Falcon29

Do people really expect us to believe this will change anything? EU or no EU, the same policies will be enacted. Nothing different will occur, same people pulling the strings, move on. This is no revolution as some are framing it.

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## Styx

Falcon29 said:


> Do people really expect us to believe this will change anything? EU or no EU, the same policies will be enacted. Nothing different will occur, same people pulling the strings, move on. This is no revolution as some are framing it.


no, they're no longer beholden to foreign (Brussels) regulations for a lot of their businesses as well as border control and immigration policy, they have reclaimed their democracy. 

Hope others follow.

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## The Sandman

Vauban said:


> @waz I can see the smile on your face from Paris.


You've no idea how happy he is

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## KediKesenFare3

pakdefender said:


> Whats the view of the "every day joe" in Germany over this ?
> 
> don't we have some members from Germany



Germans were supporting the remain campaign. They are quite the opposite of France.


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## The Sandman

pakdefender said:


> Whats the view of the "every day joe" in Germany over this ?
> 
> don't we have some members from Germany


@SMS Derfflinger @Bismarck


----------



## Falcon29

Geralt said:


> no, they're no longer beholden to foreign (Brussels) regulations for a lot of their businesses as well as border control and immigration policy, they have reclaimed their democracy.
> 
> Hope others follow.



Keep dreaming, Jewish influence is still high in the UK, and they won't allow changes for immigration policy. British people will never take it up with them, and it won't change. British far right is pro-Israel and pro-Jewish too.

Today's European far right is very different than the European right we're historically used to.


----------



## KediKesenFare3

* Don't Leave Us! Why Germany Needs the British*
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/spiegel-brexit-cover-story-please-don-t-go-a-1099070.html


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## Styx

Falcon29 said:


> Keep dreaming, Jewish influence is still high in the UK, and they won't allow changes for immigration policy. British people will never take it up with them, and it won't change. British far right is pro-Israel and pro-Jewish too.


 

aaah, Hazzy 

this *is *a huge blow to the globalist banking elite, they'll inflict some pain on the Brits in the short term but things will stabilize and they have been weakened forever. Next thing to watch here is the US elections, a Trump victory in november might knock them right out. And let's not underestimate just how big a shot in the arm this is for Euro-Skeptics all over the EU, more might follow.

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## mike2000 is back

Stephen Cohen said:


> @waz
> 
> The TRANSITION itself would be so painful -- That Brexiters would have their
> *heads in their hands
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @waz
> 
> Britain WON the Second World War
> 
> But NOW GERMANY will PUT Britain in its place --Show them the Reality that
> UK is a weak economy
> 
> And USA will not come to UK's rescue



Yes, in the short term indeed. However, this is normal as markets don't like uncertainty , but as they get used to the new normal they will stabilize and growth will resume.

Being out of the E.U doesnt means we are out of Europe, just like not using the Euro doesnt means we are out of Europe. There are several European countries who dont use the Euro and who are not part of the E.U yet that doesn't make them not European.  At the end of the day, markets are like human beings, once they get used to something its business as usual.
So any fall in our markets is a temporary issue, short term and expected. no big deal.

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Vauban said:


> @Blue Marlin @flamer84 @mike2000 is back @Pakistani Exile @Steve781
> 
> So I woke up,turned the tv on and saw '*Le Royaume Uni : L'Europe c'est fini*'.
> 
> I couldn't believe my eyes thinking it was a dream,but seems not.
> Anyway,the brits voted in favor of leaving and that's it.
> 
> @waz I can see the smile on your face from Paris.


You remain groups should be happy that you have won refferendum on pdf

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## Kuwaiti Girl

I hope the members around here realize that this referendum is not legally binding.

In other words, the UK government will find an excuse to remain part of the EU.

This referendum is just a ploy. The elites will never allow their European project to fail.

The UK government will use the referendum results as a means to pressure the EU into making more concessions.

It's all about getting a better deal from Brussels as far as London is concerned.

Should the UK really leave the EU, it'll be the end of the UK as we know it. Scotland will then secede and join the EU.

That'll isolate England and eventually force it into reintegrating with mainland Europe.

All emotions aside, if you think about this pragmatically, you'd realize that the referendum means absolutely nothing.

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## TejasMk3

*"Now It's Our Turn" - Geert Wilders Calls For A Dutch Referendum*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746212545262850048

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## Proudpakistaniguy

mike2000 is back said:


> Yes, in the short term indeed. However, this is normal as markets don't like uncertainty , but as they get used to the new normal they will stabilize and growth will resume.
> 
> Being out of the E.U doesnt means we are out of Europe, just like not using the Euro doesnt means we are out of Europe. There are several European countries who dont use the Euro and who are not part of the E.U yet that doesn't make them not European.  At thw end of the day, markets are like human beings, once they get used to something its business as usual.
> So any fall in our markets is temporal, short term and expected. no big deal.


Pound is falling because of project fear created by remain side and now they have to deal with it.. market was expecting remain side to win which did not happen but bank of England gave statement that they will do something to bring financial stability

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## Beidou2020

Kuwaiti Girl said:


> I hope the members around here realize that this referendum is not legally binding.
> 
> In other words, the UK government will find an excuse to remain part of the EU.
> 
> This referendum is just a ploy. The elites will never allow their European project to fail.
> 
> The UK government will use the referendum results as a means to pressure the EU into making more concessions.
> 
> It's all about getting a better deal from Brussels as far as London is concerned.
> 
> Should the UK really leave the EU, it'll be the end of the UK as we know it. Scotland will then secede and join the EU.
> 
> That'll isolate England and eventually force it into reintegrating with mainland Europe.
> 
> All emotions aside, if you think about this pragmatically, you'd realize that the referendum means absolutely nothing.



I agree with you.

If this was legally binding, the Western intelligence agencies will do everything in their power to make sure UK remain in the EU.

Globalists will never let their NWO collapse this easily. It's either continuing with more globalisation or the ruling elite will trigger a global war to bring order out of chaos.

But it's good to see many millions of people that are sick of the globalists and their NWO project.

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## Falcon29

Geralt said:


> aaah, Hazzy
> 
> this *is *a huge blow to the globalist banking elite, they'll inflict some pain on the Brits in the short term but things will stabilize and they have been weakened forever. Next thing to watch here is the US elections, a Trump victory in november might knock them right out. And let's not underestimate just how big a shot in the arm this is for Euro-Skeptics all over the EU, more might follow.



Nothing will change unless European right resembles that of the one in the past. There is no 'globalist banking elite', there are just terms people come up with to cover up what the actual elite entails of. And it's international Jewry, period. International Jewry promotes multiculturalism and wants all races(besides theirs) to be mixed. And they will continue without any trouble, as simply nobody in the world seeks to bring them down. Even much of the Muslim world under their fold.

The fact that some people are hailing this as a 'revolution' just shows how many dumb people exist in this world. They did absolutely nothing to harm the so called 'mysterious global elitists' or disrupt their plans.


----------



## mike2000 is back

pakdefender said:


> Once upon a time Britain could claim to be "Great" and back it up with influence ,power and achievements , but not any more
> 
> Britain always had "Island Mentality" , always suspicious of Europe , who the British saw and see as the "others"
> 
> This is not about immigrants , this is Britain being Britain
> 
> Europe for its part has in the past shown aggression towards Britain , whether it was Spain (Armada) , France(Napolen) , Germay (Hitler) , so the collective memory of Britain towards Europe is one of suspicion , that's part of the reason the older generation does not want more control from a new centre of power based in mainland Europe.



What are you even on about? Lool

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## Green Arrow

Let see when Uk will activate the Article 50 of the EU constitution to start the exit process.


----------



## Styx

Falcon29 said:


> Nothing will change unless European right resembles that of the one in the past. There is no 'globalist banking elite', there are just terms people come up with to cover up what the actual elite entails of. And it's international Jewry, period. International Jewry promotes multiculturalism and wants all races(besides theirs) to be mixed. And they will continue without any trouble, as simply nobody in the world seeks to bring them down. Even much of the Muslim world under their fold.


it's still a big blow to the international "Jewry"  then

this might also put a dent in NATO, though it's too early to say how.


----------



## Falcon29

Geralt said:


> it's still a big blow to the international "Jewry"  then
> 
> this might also put a dent in NATO, though it's too early to say how.



It isn't , lol, policies will not change. Anti-Muslim sentiment will increase, but it's already at high level. The so called 'right wing' parties in EU are very pro-Israel and pro-international Jewry. They won't put brakes on multiculturalism. Just enough anti-Muslim sentiment to ensure no peace initiative is pushed.

Anyway, y'all can form your own opinions regarding this. I just don't see an unpredictable future, it's very predictable where it's heading. And I don't regard it as a some 'revolution'.


----------



## pakdefender

mike2000 is back said:


> What are you even on about? Lool



Britain is suspicious of Europe as a whole and Germany in particular

Some of it is also about "Catholics live in Europe" and the Eastern Europe block is
Orthodox/Russian

Also Britain does sees itself as the Protestant bastion against a Catholic Europe

Its not that overt but its an under current that has been flowing since long between Europe and Britain

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## livingdead

Kuwaiti Girl said:


> I hope the members around here realize that this referendum is not legally binding.
> 
> In other words, the UK government will find an excuse to remain part of the EU.
> 
> This referendum is just a ploy. The elites will never allow their European project to fail.
> 
> The UK government will use the referendum results as a means to pressure the EU into making more concessions.
> 
> It's all about getting a better deal from Brussels as far as London is concerned.
> 
> Should the UK really leave the EU, it'll be the end of the UK as we know it. Scotland will then secede and join the EU.
> 
> That'll isolate England and eventually force it into reintegrating with mainland Europe.
> 
> All emotions aside, if you think about this pragmatically, you'd realize that the referendum means absolutely nothing.


I doubt that will happen(going back on promise).. UK will exit but will try to put in place arrangements that will make it as little painful as possible. One would assume the germans and french are grownup about this and not act like bitchy ex.

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## SMS Derfflinger

It has really happen?!? Puuh...



hinduguy said:


> One would assume the germans and french are grownup about this and not act like bitchy ex.


Why should we...out is out, UK want it so, so, don`t complain about the consequenses. But I can you reassure neither we nor the french are so bitchy underway.
I think Bruexelles will be there harder, think about this a.. .

On an emotional level, i`m glad, let they go on the rational level i`m missing the guys already. We have lost a reasonable partner within the EU. Now it will become much harder the fight against a superstate and all kinds of transferunions.

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## pakdefender

Litesea said:


> Record level inflation coming soon to Britian after this
> 
> 
> Its more about economics and immigration than religion buddy



Religion is the undercurrent in Europe/Britain relations, it flows beneath the surface, don't be fooled to believe otherwise
I've scratched beneath the surface both online and in real life , through travel and discussions , it's not like doesn't matter at all , it does ... and you'll be surprised how much this matters when it all come down to the wire.

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## SMS Derfflinger

@pakdefender If this is so, than only by the british side.


----------



## flamer84

Vauban said:


> @Blue Marlin @flamer84 @mike2000 is back @Pakistani Exile @Steve781
> 
> So I woke up,turned the tv on and saw '*Le Royaume Uni : L'Europe c'est fini*'.
> 
> I couldn't believe my eyes thinking it was a dream,but seems not.
> Anyway,the brits voted in favor of leaving and that's it.
> 
> @waz I can see the smile on your face from Paris.




They have thrown us in a artificial economic crisis for their pride.Never forget this day and British folly.Let's hope that the rest of Europe will rally and move on.Scotland must be encouraged towards independence.

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## SMS Derfflinger

flamer84 said:


> They have thrown us in a artificial economic crisis for their pride.Never forget this day and British folly.Let's hope that the rest of Europe will rally and move on.Scotland must be encouraged towards independence.


And if they sucess?


----------



## pakdefender

Litesea said:


> After growth of irreligion in Europe ethnicity matters more than religion



I used to think that too because that's what the news tell us that the west is secular and religion does not matter but thats not true , beneath the surface that is simply not true

I can tell you people in Spain , Portugal , Ireland , Italy identify Catholic and are not all that "irreligious" , in fact the opposite. In France while 50% people don't identify with religion , of the rest 50% who do identify , they identify with Catholicism. For Germany , the more South you go , Bavaria and below , of those who identify with religion , identify with Catholicism , same for Austria.

So majority of Europe is Catholic , in which the Pope and the Catholic Church has a place , not a central place but still has a place at the table you can say

The North European countries Denmark and Scandinavian countries are Lutheran ( Protestant ) , they have be like peripheral reluctant members of the EU and while economics has a role to play , religion too has played a role in how the European Union has come together.

Britain is the odd man out in Europe, for a number of reasons and religion is one of them , not the only one but one of them. By the way in Britain a Catholic cannot be the Monarch/King , and there is long history behind it , you can read up on how the Church of England came about.

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## Vergennes

flamer84 said:


> They have thrown us in a artificial economic crisis for their pride.Never forget this day and British folly.Let's hope that the rest of Europe will rally and move on.



France has always been suspisious about the UK joining the Union.... 
De Gaulle was saying that they were representing the american's interests and would be the US's trojan horse in the EEC and was always opposing their entry...



> Scotland must be encouraged towards independence.

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> France has always been suspisious about the UK joining the Union....
> De Gaulle was saying that they were representing the american's interests and would be the US's trojan horse in the EEC and was always opposing their entry...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 313148​




I hope that the UK won't be given an agreement like Switzerland and Norway and the EU makes an example of them.Capital flight will happen and that capital must be directed in Europe.

This must be remembered as the day when the UK has destroyed itself.

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## vostok

Vauban said:


> View attachment 313148​


Where the Isle of Man?!


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## Vergennes

flamer84 said:


> I hope that the UK won't be given an agreement like Switzerland and Norway and the EU makes an example of them.Capital flight will happen and that capital must be directed in Europe.
> 
> This must be remembered as the day when the UK has destroyed itself.



I just hope that in Brussels they will take the lessons about this referendum and totally refound the European Union if it wants to survive,because the more it continues that way,the more people will demand referendum,the more they will have enough.... the more countries would want to leave..
-
Anyway,as it was said,out is out. 



vostok said:


> Where the Isle of Man?!



Disappeared because of the global warming bro.

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## Deliorman

EU actually used to be going pretty well when it was an Economical union rather than a wanna be Super state... EU in it's current format with the current way of governing has no future and it is more visible than ever. The whole EU is getting more and more divided especially by all problems that it has especially since 2008-2009.

A Union of countries so different can't survive in it's current format.


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## vostok

Vauban said:


> Disappeared because of the global warming bro.


Oh, I get it! It turns out that Isle of Man is not a part of UK! It has status of internally self-governing Crown dependency.

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## livingdead

flamer84 said:


> I hope that the UK won't be given an agreement like Switzerland and Norway and the EU makes an example of them.Capital flight will happen and that capital must be directed in Europe.
> 
> This must be remembered as the day when the UK has destroyed itself.


brits are very good at negotiation... and they will negotiate hard... with EU, and with emerging economies. They are also the most practical bunch, it might not be all milk and honey but it will be exactly like how people want.
Anyway, you seem to have taken it personally... calm down.

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## Jungibaaz

sims1729 said:


> This will actually lead to economic growth in the long term coz decision making will become more decisive..euro is doomed from the start...the cultural differences are too huge ....you can be trade bloc as Europe..thats fine and sustainable...but when angela merkel starts accepting so many refugees who could 5 years down the line end up anywhere in europe..other countries are gonna react big time



None of these points are coherent with actual reasons to leave. Britain has made the wrong decision for all the wrong reasons. Some good things will come of it, but overwhelmingly bad this is not just for us, but for all of Europe.


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## flamer84

hinduguy said:


> brits are very good at negotiation... and they will negotiate hard... with EU, and with emerging economies. They are also the most practical bunch, it might not be all milk and honey but it will be exactly like how people want.
> Anyway, you seem to have taken it personally... calm down.




I'm very calm,amazed at British stupidity but calm.The EU will make an example of the UK because they need to do this to survive.

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## livingdead

flamer84 said:


> I'm very calm,amazed at British stupidity but calm.The EU will make an example of the UK because they need to do this to survive.


it will depend on how eurozone does economically in next year or so. If it remains fragile, they will have less reason to bring up tariff. Except tariff barrier, europe has no other stick to punish... (and it goes both ways).
UK will try to reduce the risk by doing deals with emerging economies.

both side had good reasons... and stupid reasons... the difference in vote % shows how tough the fight was.


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## flamer84

hinduguy said:


> it will depend on how eurozone does economically in next year or so. If it remains fragile, they will have less reason to bring up tariff. Except tariff barrier, europe has no other stick to punish... (and it goes both ways).
> UK will try to reduce the risk by doing deals with emerging economies.




A successful UK outside the EU would encourage others ,so I think that Brussels will strike hard.Even if we hurt ourselves in the short term the UK must be made an example for obvious political reasons.For the EU to succeed,Britain must not.

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## livingdead

flamer84 said:


> A successful UK outside the EU would encourage others ,so I think that Brussels will strike hard.


the negotiation itself will take 2 years(+3 months).. till then no tariff barrier. This will give breathing space to UK businesses and policy makers. Lets see how they utilize it.


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## SMS Derfflinger

vostok said:


> Oh, I get it! It turns out that Isle of Man is not a part of UK! It has status of internally self-governing Crown dependency.



Really?



hinduguy said:


> the negotiation itself will take 2 years(+3 months).. till then no tariff barrier. This will give breathing space to UK businesses and policy makers. Lets see how they utilize it.



We will see, who know, maybe there won`t be an EU anymore...


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## livingdead

SMS Derfflinger said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> We will see, who know, maybe there won`t be an EU anymore...


I hope EU breaks in orderly fashion at least... otherwise there will be total chaos.

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## Jungibaaz

cleverrider said:


> Yes the economy will be hit, but the NHS, Housing, Schools, infrastructure, can’t take it anymore.



Can't take what anymore?

Our economy is going to have a revised outlook, revised meaning lower and more bleak. Market instability is just the first stage. Scotland can, and in fact should now vote for their independence from the UK. 

This will cause further disintegration in Europe too, it will inspire the nationalist right elsewhere in the EU.


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## Hyde

yuba said:


> Do you think the eu wil let us keep free trade without political union.I think norway has some agreement along those lines


It will be similar to Norwegian or Swiss model but Britain being the second largest economy in Europe, expect to seal better deal once the emotions/ hue and cry comes to an end.

I think EU will try to punish Britain by adding extra cost but it may still be worth it in the long run.

We would certainly have done better within EU but I think we would still be able to enjoy free market, freedom of movement (freedom of tourism if not work) etc...

I think 2 years of negotiation period is enough to find suitable pathway but I wont be surprised if the total procedure takes longer than 2 years... (as written in the constitition that you must complete all formalities within 2 years)

David Cameron has already stated that he wont invoke article 50 until a new leader has been chosen by his party.

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## flamer84

Aether said:


> It will be similar to Norwegian or Swiss model but Britain being the second largest economy in Europe, expect to seal better deal once the emotions/ hue and cry comes to an end.
> 
> I think EU will try to punish Britain by adding extra cost but it may still be worth it in the long run.
> 
> We would certainly have done better within EU but I think we would still be able to enjoy free market, freedom of movement (freedom of tourism if not work) etc...
> 
> I think 2 years of negotiation period is enough to find suitable pathway but I wont be surprised if the total procedure takes longer than 2 years... (as written in the constitition that you must complete all formalities within 2 years)
> 
> David Cameron has already stated that he wont invoke article 50 until a new leader has been chosen by his party.




Britain gained nothing.If it wants access to the free market it will pay more than now,it will still need to bend over to EU labour/travel regulations and on top of that it won't have a say in decisions taken.It only achieved to crash stocks.Cameron knows that this is a disaster and that's why he's leaving.He's the new Gorbachev.

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## mike2000 is back

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> Pound is falling because of project fear created by remain side and now they have to deal with it.. market was expecting remain side to win which did not happen but bank of England gave statement that they will do something to bring financial stability



True, funny thing is that what tipped the balance in people voting OUT is what that unelected E.U commissioner said before the vote, since he said 'insultingly' that there will be no reform whether britain vote to leave or stays. Lol. In short these bureaucrats don't want any changes at all to those outdated E.U laws which is also why many people in the E.U who want to leave, hold such views. It meant that people who were unsure about their decision opted for leave since they knew that there is no chance for Britain to change things from the inside. let's see if things will change as we voted to get out.



pakdefender said:


> Britain is suspicious of Europe as a whole and Germany in particular
> 
> Some of it is also about "Catholics live in Europe" and the Eastern Europe block is
> Orthodox/Russian
> 
> Also Britain does sees itself as the Protestant bastion against a Catholic Europe
> 
> Its not that overt but its an under current that has been flowing since long between Europe and Britain



Seriously what's wrong with yoy muslim islamist and religion??
You people see Everything through Religion . . No wonder your region is the way it is today. Lol Better to focus on Pakistan's many troubles and middle eastern sectarian wars, Guess you definitely know more about that than the topic at hand. Lol

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## RoadRunner401

David Cameron resigns.

Prime Minister David Cameron, who had led the campaign to keep Britain in the EU, said he would resign by October and left it to his successor to decide when to invoke Article 50, which triggers a departure from European Union.


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## mike2000 is back

flamer84 said:


> Britain gained nothing.If it wants access to the free market it will pay more than now,it will still need to bend over to EU labour/travel regulations and on top of that it won't have a say in decisions taken.It only achieved to crash stocks.Cameron knows that this is a disaster and that's why he's leaving.He's the new Gorbachev.



No, he is not really and we will see.
As I said before, its just because we human beings are usually scared of change, so we often need some time to adapt.
For example before we joined the E.U in the 70s many people were saying the same thing about how our economy is going to collapse and decline into oblivion if we joined the E.U, how we are going to lose all our sovereignty/laws etc, some even said if we don't adopt the Euros we will be doomed. Yet none of that happened, our economy grew, our currency is the worlds 3rd largest reserve currency and among the top 3 most iinfluential/used around the world. Etc

So all these fear mongering is just fear mongering. lol. We will carry on moving forward even if we are not in the E.U. In fact, it may do some good, hopefully this will make those unelected arrogant E.U Commissioners to take other E.U member countries complaints about reforms more seriously next time. Lol

DO note that if we were never part of E.U then people wouldnt be saying all these doomsday scenario like what they are saying today. Lol Since they will all have been used to it. Lol Anyway they will still get use to it, and 2-5 years from now everyone will even forget they ever predicted a doomsday scenario. Lol

Moreover, the real reason most brits voted out was because of immigration (70%) and sovereignty(20%) to be honest. It was a mistake to admit other eastern European countries in so early, since the difference in living standard is quite wide. If E.U had first restricted itself to western europe while advancing towards the East on a case by case basis with time as their living standards improve, then we would all have been far better off, and no brit(mostly the common man) will be complaining so much about so many immigrants taking their jobs and lowering their wages. This is what tipped the balance as well.

At the end if the day we need to seriously review our immigration policy(which I believe the next government will do) and follow Australian or even Canadian model of high skilled immigration depending on skills, experience and what value they and bring to our country or through a case by case basis.  This also applies for migrants from non E.U countries coming here



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> @mike2000 is back do you understand what I mean?
> 
> View attachment 313098
> 
> 
> View attachment 313102



The world is a very big place.
Too bad the U.S is not in our commonwealth. lol

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## 21 Dec 2012

Without the Scots and the Irish, the leave percentage gets even further boosted. The English are all in to leave. Now lets see whether the Scotland and (greater) Ireland are or not. David Cameron may leave behind a legacy of two broken Unions.


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## jaunty

waz said:


> They are in power, but they don't have a majority in parliament. Yes they had 44.7% but that was against 55.3, statistically that is very hard to close. Europe is in dire straights at the moment. Other states will also vote against Scotland , do you know about the separatist problems in Spain? Spain has said they would boycott such membership. They would also have to adopt the Euro which they don't want to do and accept a whole raft of new legislation that the Scotts don't want.



Just as I predicted http://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-scottish-independence-referendum-is-certain

It only took a few hours. 

They will first assess the public opinion now, if there is still a positive sentiment for independence, I am 100% sure that they will call for another independence referendum within a couple of years again and I would be shocked if they don't get more than 45% votes this time. Those who voted yes last time would vote yes again but there will be a significant swing from the no side following this development. Last time a lot of Scots voted no in order to stay in the EU.


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## vostok

I should note that my own predictions have not come true. The old Britain still able to surprise! They are building two aircraft carriers for a reason! In the world to come, Britain wants to have its own place - it is praiseworthy.

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> No, he is not really and we will see.
> As I said before, its just because we human beings are usually scared of change, so we often need some time to adapt.
> For example before we joined the E.U in the 70s many people were saying the same thing about how our economy is going to collapse and decline into oblivion if we joined the E.U, how we are going to lose all our sovereignty/laws etc, some even said if we don't adopt the Euros we will be doomed. Yet none of that happened, our economy grew, our currency is the worlds 3rd largest reserve currency and among the top 3 most iinfluential/used around the world. Etc
> 
> So all these fear mongering is just fear mongering. lol. We will carry on moving forward even if we are not in the E.U. In fact, it may do some good, hopefully this will make those unelected arrogant E.U Commissioners to take other E.U member countries complaints about reforms more seriously next time. Lol
> 
> DO note thar if we were never part of E.U then people wouldnt be saying all these doomsday scenario like what they are saying today. Lol Since they will all have been used to it. Lol Anyway they will still get use to it, and 5-10years from now everyone will even forget they ever predicted a doomsday scenario. Lol
> 
> Moreover, the real reason most brits voted out was because of immigration (70%) and sovereignty(20%) to be honest. It was a mistake to admit other eastern European countries in so early, since the difference in standard of living is quite wide. If E.U had first restricted itself to western europe while advancing towards the East on a case by case basis with time as gtheir living standards improvise, then we would all have been far better off, and no brit(mostly the common man) will be complaining so much about so many immigrants taking their jobs and lowering their wages. This is what tipped the balance as well.
> At the end if the day we need to seriously review oyr immigration policy and follow Australian or even Canadian model of high skilled immigration depending on skills, experience and what value they and bring to our country or through a case by case basis.  This also applies for migrants from non E.U countries coming here
> 
> 
> 
> The world is a very big place.
> Too bad the U.S is not in our commonwealth. lol




None of this will change with BREXIT.

The UK will be forced to open market just as norway and switzerland and allow evry EU citizen into it and working permits as well. 

Beside that its obvious that the UK breaks apart from this. Scotland wants to remain in the EU with overwhelming numbers. Scotland wont allow to be led into isolation


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## RedRock

mike2000 is back said:


> True, funny thing is that whar tipped the ballabce in people voting OUT is what that unelected E.U commissioner said before the vote, since he said 'insultingly' that there will be no reform whether britain vote to leave or stays. Lol. In short these bureaucrats don't want any changes at all to those outdated E.U laws which is also why many people in the E.U who want to leave, hold such views. It meant thar people who were unsure about their decision opted for leave since they knew that there is no chance for Britain to change things from the inside. let's see if things will change as we voted to get out.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously what's wrong with yoy muslim islamist and religion??
> You people see Everything through Religion . . No wonder your region is the way it is today. Lol Better to focus on Pakistan's many troubles and middle eastern sectarian wars, Guess you definitely know more about that than the topic at hand. Lol


Hey
Was wondering that since the British don't want to be apart of EU, could it also be the same in the case for NATO? I know know there is much of a difference between the two, but could it be possible?


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## Kuwaiti Girl

mike2000 is back said:


> No, he is not really and we will see.
> As I said before, its just because we human beings are usually scared of change, so we often need some time to adapt.
> For example before we joined the E.U in the 70s many people were saying the same thing about how our economy is going to collapse and decline into oblivion if we joined the E.U, how we are going to lose all our sovereignty/laws etc, some even said if we don't adopt the Euros we will be doomed. Yet none of that happened, our economy grew, our currency is the worlds 3rd largest reserve currency and among the top 3 most iinfluential/used around the world. Etc
> 
> So all these fear mongering is just fear mongering. lol. We will carry on moving forward even if we are not in the E.U. In fact, it may do some good, hopefully this will make those unelected arrogant E.U Commissioners to take other E.U member countries complaints about reforms more seriously next time. Lol


How ironic of you to mention fear-mongering as an example in a situation like this lol.

It's exactly fear-mongering that prompted half the British population to foolishly vote against remaining part of the EU.

The UK has just shot itself in the foot. 

Not only is this decision going to isolate the UK from the rest of Europe, but it will also lead to Scottish independence.


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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> None of this will change with BREXIT.
> 
> The UK will be forced to open market just as norway and switzerland and allow evry EU citizen into it and working permits as well.
> 
> Beside that its obvious that the UK breaks apart from this. Scotland wants to remain in the EU with overwhelming numbers. Scotland wont allow to be led into isolation



Its just all talk, they are not going anywhere without our approval, they already had their referundum and voted to stay. Case is already closed. lol.
However, they will make alot of noise as usual so Westminster can grant them more powers, usual political tricks, nothing new. 
As I said, it might be a sad bitter divorce we just had with the E.U, but they shouldn't cry, we are still in EUROPE, and NATO , we are not just in E.U. After all, as you can see Switzerland, Norway, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia, Moldova, Iceland, etc etc. are not part of the E.U but they are still in Europe, and life continues.lol 

I think Britain leaving will have a positive effect for the E.U at least, since E.U complacent bureaucrats will seriously start taking what common people in europe complains are and reform accordingly.

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> Its just all talk, they are not going anywhere without our approval, they already had their referundum amd voted to stay. Case is already closed. lol.
> However, they will make alot if noise so Westminster can grant them more powers, usual political tricks, nothing new.
> As I said, it might be a sad bitter divorce we just had with the E.U, but they shouldn't cry, we are still in EUROPE, and NATO , we are not just in E.U After all, as you can see Switzerland, Norway, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia, Moldova, Iceland, etc etc. are not part of the E.U but they are still in Europe, and life continues.
> I think Britain leaving will have a positive effect for the E.U at least, since E.U complacent bureaucrats will seriously start taking what common people in europe complains are and reform accordingly.




You are not going anywhere without there approval. We live in the 21st century. You dont follow the rules then you are out. 

Also with all honesty you arent europe and never where. You are americas colony sadly said but Blair sold you out.

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## mike2000 is back

Kuwaiti Girl said:


> How ironic of you to mention fear-mongering as an example in a situation like this lol.
> 
> It's exactly fear-mongering that prompted half the British population to foolishly vote against remaining part of the EU.
> 
> The UK has just shot itself in the foot.
> 
> Not only is this decision going to isolate the UK from the rest of Europe, but it will also lead to Scottish independence.



Not really, its mostly the common man in britain who voted leave, since some of them are the ones who have been affectes the most by what they see and by E.U inability and unwillingness to reform.
It wont isolate us, we will still trade with Europe, and they will still trade with us, WIN-WIN. Their citizens will still move here(under different conditions though) and we as well , we will still carry on cooperating on Military projects and deployments(thats for those few E.U countries like France who have a real military) etc. The only difference is that we like Norway or Switzerland will not be part of the E.U 2 years from now. EUROPE still needs us the way we need them and both sides know this, only that this time the terms will be different.. 



MarkusS said:


> You are not going anywhere without there approval. We live in the 21st century. You dont follow the rules then you are out.
> 
> Also with all honesty you arent europe and never where. You are americas colony sadly said but Blair sold you out.



Lol Dont be so heartbroken bro, we are still in EUROPE and many beautiful Italian girls will keep coming here. 

Ask yourselves why many europeans have an unfavourable view towards Brussels. the french are even more anti E.U than we brit. Ever paused one minute and asked yourself why?. . Its E.U bureaucrats.

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> Not really, its mostly the common man in britain who voted leave, since some of them are the ones who have been affectes the most by what they see and by E.U inability and unwillingness to reform.
> It wont isolate us, we will still trade with Europe, and they will still trade with us, WIN-WIN. Their citizens will still move here(under different conditions though) and we as well , we will still carry on cooperating on Military projects and deployments(thats for those few E.U countries like France who have a real military) etc. The only difference is that we like Norway or Switzerland will not be part of the E.U 2 years from now. EUROPE still needs us the way we need them and both sides know this, only that this time the terms will be different..
> 
> 
> 
> Lol Dont be so heartbroken bro, we are still in EUROPE and many beautiful Italian girls will keep coming here.
> 
> Ask yourselves why many europeans have an unfavourable view towards Brussels. the french are even more anti E.U than we brit. Ever paused one minute and asked yourself why?. . Its E.U bureaucrats.




It wont works like this amigo. 

The UK is out and never really was in. I visited UK and its an alien culture and not european in any way. 

Simple fact is that your people will propably need visa to get entry into italy. 

You forget one thing. You say the terms will be different. They will but in our way of interest. Now we can push our conditions on the UK.

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## mike2000 is back

RedRock said:


> Hey
> Was wondering that since the British don't want to be apart of EU, could it also be the same in the case for NATO? I know know there is much of a difference between the two, but could it be possible?



Lol NEVER, NATO and E.U are completely two different things. In fact we are the one who is at the forefront calling for other eastern European countries like Georgia and Ukraine to be admitted in NATO. We are also the second largest military spender/power in NATO after the U.S, we are the one calling for other E.U countries to meet their defence spending obligation towards NATO, we are also the ones who are calling on other E.U countries to be more committed/involved towards NATO and forget about the fantasy(to be impotent) E.U army which will be a military disaster with no will to fight/fund the army or deploy overseas. Lol etc etc.
The way we brit view NATO is completely different from the way we view the E.U and its bureaucrats.

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## RoadRunner401

Brexiters assure the public that once the UK ditches the EU it will boom economically and establish close bilateral trade relations with the EU. In short, they will get all the benefits of the EU but escape its pesky requirements. Pork pie in sky!

The Continental EU members have long regarded Britain as an American Trojan Horse designed to keep Europe under Washington’s thumb. They don’t trust London and mock British pretensions of imperial grandeur. They also want a big slice of the City of London’s financial pie.

Europeans fear Brexit might very well create a domino effect, inspiring the EU’s weak sisters, like Greece and Italy – and maybe Spain, Portugal, or even Holland – to decamp and return to their bad old financial ways. The Russians and Americans would be pleased to see the EU founder, thus removing a strategic and economic competitor.

If the Brits want out, let them go – but keep the Irish and Scots. The Brits never added much to the EU anyway beyond sneers and complaints. But they can’t go without paying a steep exit tax to discourage other potential deserters. An independent not so great Britain would likely become a giant American theme park in the North Atlantic while being mooned by the annoying French.

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> Lol NEVER, NATO and E.U are completely two different things. In fact we are the one who is at the forefront calling for other eastern European countries like Georgia and Ukraine to be admitted in NATO. We are also the second largest military spender/power in NATO after the U.S, we are the one calling for other E.U countries to meet theur defence spending obligation towards NATO, we are also the ones who are calling on other E.U countries to be more committed towards NATO amd forhet about the fantasy impotent E.U army which will be a military disaster. Lol etc etc.
> The way we brit view NATO is completely different from the way we view the E.U abd its bureaucrats.




Many in Europe want end NATO. Big majority in italy for example. You are americas poodle and the 5th wheel. 

Will the EU army a bigger desaster than your new navy ships that cant operate in warm water or a smaller desaster?


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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> It wont works like this amigo.
> 
> The UK is out and never really was in. I visited UK and its an alien culture and not european in any way.
> 
> Simple fact is that your people will propably need visa to get entry into italy.
> 
> You forget one thing. You say the terms will be different. They will but in our way of interest. Now we can push our conditions on the UK.



Lol we were never Europeans??
I can see emotions are running high. 
Its normal though after a divorce, but as I said wirh time (give it 2 years at most) things will settle down. So I understand and sympathise with your feelings. At least shows you LOVE US.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Congrats to British to regaining their own Identity back
No place for Markus in UK , with out visa

I agree with local British folks since the region is so small already can't absorb new people and certainly no future king from other nations, who know who Prince Harry likes he might even get engaged with a peasant girl from Luxembourg

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> Lol we were never Europeans??
> I can see emotions are running high.
> Its normal though after a divorce, but as I said wirh time (give it 2 years at most) things will settle down. So I understand and sympathise with your feelings. At least shows you LOVE US.




I dont love the UK. I love Scotland. Visited the Isle of Skye and it was amazing. I had to cross england though to get there and that part was rather disgusting. 

Emotions arent running high. I see this as good for europe. The UK was americas poodle that pressed europe down. Now we get rid of them and can be free.


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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> Many in Europe want end NATO. Big majority in italy for example. You are americas poodle and the 5th wheel.
> 
> Will the EU army a bigger desaster than your new navy ships that cant operate in warm water or a smaller desaster?



If we are a military dwarf as you claim, what is Italy?






Italy itself spends just about as much as Iraq on its military, Germany doesnt want to even hear about anything military even less so deployments/fighting a war overseas, this leaves only France as the country who will carry everything on its shoulders. How can this European Army function with such 'committed' countries?lol. Good luck with that though.

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> If we are a military dwarf as you claim, what is Italy?



I dont know what you are amigo. All i know is that im glad that we get rid of people who do inbreding since generations, have no production or industrial sector, play no role in the world anyways ad whose only contribution to europe was a clownshow called "royals". With a demented old queen ho married her own cousen...given birth to several freaks like sail ear charles and that other horse faced guy. Oh and i hope you guys paid for the cracked pillar in the Paris motorway tunnel.


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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> I dont know what you are amigo. All i know is that im glad that we get rid of people who do inbreding since generations, have no production or industrial sector, play no role in the world anyways ad whose only contribution to europe was a clownshow called "royals". With a demented old queen ho married her own cousen...given birth to several freaks like sail ear charles and that other horse faced guy. Oh and i hope you guys paid for the cracked pillar in the Paris motorway tunnel.



We play no role or have no influence in the WORLD?? Even more so, Coming from an Italian ?? JOKE OF THE CENTURY.
Why are you speaking English in the first place? Ask yourself why. Lool

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> We play no role or have no influence in the WORLD?? Even more so, Coming from an Italian ?? JOKE OF THE CENTURY.
> Why are you speaking English in the first place? Ask yourself why. Lool



because its an easy bastardisated lingua franca. 

what role or influence do you have? for us its best you are out. you did hold us back. I expect from our leaders to make the best deal for our interests and use your position of weakness at full extent.


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## -SINAN-

mike2000 is back said:


> We play no role or have no influence in the WORLD?? Even more so, Coming from an Italian ?? JOKE OF THE CENTURY.
> Why are you speaking English in the first place? Ask yourself why. Lool


Lol, Mate, if you press anymore further, i think Markus will call for the invasion of UK with the United EU army.

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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> because its an easy bastardisated lingua franca.
> 
> what role or influence do you have? for us its best you are out. you did hold us back. I expect from our leaders to make the best deal for our interests and use your position of weakness at full extent.



HAHAHA.....you sound more like superboy alias @ultron .

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## powastick



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## Guynextdoor2

waz said:


> The Scots will look at Europe and run a mile. The independence idea isn't very popular there. Do also remember that their islands will break away from Scotland leaving them without oil and gas....It's not that simple. Do remember that Wales and England voted clearly in. The Scot nationalists don't have collective bargaining power.


Man Britain will replace the bureaucracy of Europe with red of British civil service. Some gain here.


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## mike2000 is back

Sinan said:


> Lol, Mate, if you press anymore further, i think Markus will call for the invasion of UK with the United EU army.



Ahahahah......Lmao. 
You are funny bruv. 
Or maybe we will be the one sending in troops in EUROPE to help the united European Army like During WWII.

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> HAHAHA.....you sound more like superboy alias @ultron .



whats yoir problem? you made clear that you want be american theme park and broke with europe. That is fine and i think you should accept that i as a patriot want that my country does not do bad deals with a hostile nation like the UK. you dont want a future with us and thats ok. you must be very naive if you think you get better deals now.

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## SMS Derfflinger

I think, we all should calm down. But how to get the idea, the UK is not European, I don`t understand now. The tommys are the only one in Europe, which drinking as much beer as we.

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## livingdead

SMS Derfflinger said:


> I think, we all should calm down. But how to get the idea, the UK is not European, I don`t understand now. The tommys are the only one in Europe, which drinking as much beer as we.


two lions cant be in same den.. europe is yours now... treat the french nicely please...

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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> whats yoir problem? you made clear that you want be american theme park and broke with europe. That is fine and i think you should accept that i as a patriot want that my country does not do bad deals with a hostile nation like the UK. you dont want a future with us and thats ok. you must be very naive if you think you get better deals now.



Huh.....we do what we think is best for us on the long term as always. Seems you know nothing about Great Britain. We will do what it takes if we think it will serve us well. just like we joined the AIIB when nobody expected while the U.S was severely against it , did we care?lol
You dont even seem to know what you are talking about.lol The U.S is the one who has been pleading with us to remain in the E.U even more than European countries did. OBAMA even made a special trip here last month to plead us to stay, DID we care?lol.
We will do what we want as long as we think it will serve us well in the long run.

As I said the E.U needs to reform urgently, with one of its most powerful and influential member out, it will now take reform seriously, which it wouldn't have done if we stayed..

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## Bismarck

The Sandman said:


> @SMS Derfflinger @Bismarck



Sucks! 

More detail statesman will follow.


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## flamer84

mike2000 is back said:


> Lol we were never Europeans??
> I can see emotions are running high.
> Its normal though after a divorce, but as I said wirh time (give it 2 years at most) things will settle down. So I understand and sympathise with your feelings. At least shows you LOVE US.




You have thrown a barely recovering European economy into chaos out of sheer stupidity.You deserve the worst and I hope you'll get it.The financial establishment in Frankfurt are overjoyed at taking the the money pie away from London.I hope Scotland and N Ireland brake free and never hear about the UK again

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> Huh.....we do what we think is best for us on the long term as always. Seems you know nothing about Great Britain. We will do what it takes if we think it will serve us well. just like we joined the AIIB when nobody expected while the U.S was severely against it , did we care?lol
> You dont even seem to know what you are talking about.lol The U.S is the one who has been pleading with us to remain in the E.U even more than European countries did. OBAMA even made a special trip here last month to plead us to stay, DID we care?lol.
> We will do what we want as long as we think it will serve us well in the long run.
> 
> As I said the E.U needs to reform urgently, with one of its most powerful and influential out, it will now take reform seriously, which it wouldn't have done if we stayed..



Merkel meets with Hollande and Renzi today. UK out boosts italian influence.

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## Mrc

Pound nose diving like hell....

Any one wants to make a quick buck.... wait for bottom and buy pounds....sell after recovery


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## Taygibay

hinduguy said:


> europe is yours now... treat the french nicely please...



Oh, they'll have to in order to avoid a string of departures ...
plus they need an army for EU.

Und das Ehepaar wird besser ... with the mistress gone? 

I'm out already -----» [Tay]


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## SMS Derfflinger

MarkusS said:


> Merkel meets with Hollande and Renzi today. UK out boosts italian influence.


Great...



Taygibay said:


> Oh, they'll have to in order to avoid a string of departures ...plus they need an army for EU. Und das Ehepaar wird besser ... with the mistress gone?
> 
> I'm out already -----» [Tay]



I would it like to see a string of departures and with the hard core, which is left to make it right this time.


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## Darmashkian

mike2000 is back said:


> Its just all talk, they are not going anywhere without our approval, they already had their referundum and voted to stay. Case is already closed. lol.
> However, they will make alot of noise as usual so Westminster can grant them more powers, usual political tricks, nothing new.
> As I said, it might be a sad bitter divorce we just had with the E.U, but they shouldn't cry, we are still in EUROPE, and NATO , we are not just in E.U. After all, as you can see Switzerland, Norway, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia, Moldova, Iceland, etc etc. are not part of the E.U but they are still in Europe, and life continues.lol
> 
> I think Britain leaving will have a positive effect for the E.U at least, since E.U complacent bureaucrats will seriously start taking what common people in europe complains are and reform accordingly.


Sir, I don't think the Scots will leave.

Firstly, what will be their currency? No sane mind takes the EUro these days,& UK won't give them the GBP.

Add to that as a nation, what will be their source of income when oil prices are falling?

& lastly doesn't Spain oppose their entry in the EU as a measure against Catalonia?

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## livingdead

SMS Derfflinger said:


> Great...
> 
> 
> 
> I would it like to see a string of departures and with the hard core, which is left to make it right this time.


you want italy, greece and spain out?


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## SMS Derfflinger

I would not stop anyone, who want to go. If France and Germany would be the last...then it's supposed to be like that.


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## Darmashkian

mike2000 is back said:


> If we are a military dwarf as you claim, what is Italy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italy itself spends just about as much as Iraq on its military, Germany doesnt want to even hear about anything military even less so deployments/fighting a war overseas, this leaves only France as the country who will carry everything on its shoulders. How can this European Army function with such 'committed' countries?lol. Good luck with that though.


European Army?? WHo will they fight-- Russia?

& who thought of this idea?

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## LeveragedBuyout

The EU has no choice but to negotiate a favorable treaty with the UK, to ensure that trade flows remain smooth.

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/






$420bn of imports from Europe, with Germany alone accounting for $100bn. Everyone who thinks that the EU will engage in a spiteful act of "punishment" is engaged in self-delusion, because the EU would only destroy its own economy. After everyone has time to cool their heads, a calm and measured discussion will take place.

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## livingdead

SMS Derfflinger said:


> I would not stop anyone, who want to go.


 you can openly say those who bring money stay.. and those who leech can leave.. we all know what germans think already its no secret.


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## Darmashkian

LeveragedBuyout said:


> The EU has no choice but to negotiate a favorable treaty with the UK, to ensure that trade flows remain smooth.
> 
> http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/
> 
> View attachment 313255
> 
> 
> $420bn of imports from Europe, with Germany alone accounting for $100bn. Everyone who thinks that the EU will engage in a spiteful act of "punishment" is engaged in self-delusion, because the EU would only destroy its own economy. After everyone has time to cool their heads, a calm and measured discussion will take place.


shhhh @mike2000 is back please join me in telling others not to show us facts please

Markus may force the EU army to declare war against the US!!

On the other hand, thank you very much for posting this sir

@flamer84 @MarkusS I understand what u are going through, I used to a belong to a large state in India which was bifurcated in 2 just 2-3 years back.

The state had 3 regions-A,B &C

The region-A which had a highly developed state capital,IT & pharma industry & most of the state's revenue accused the other regions-B,C of being evil,showing political dominance & not caring about them(fueled by a bunch of jobless politicos & idiot leftist intellectuals & profs+jobless students ).

Many of them even talked about kicking all of those from B & C who had emigrated to A & the capital by force from their region, even those whose parents were from B & C & were born in A were to be kicked out.(Thankfully they calmed down+Courts & Central Government.)

& due to birfurcation they took everything & left B & C without a capital,money & a huge fiscal deficit leaving them to rebuild from start.Most of the revenue went to A & due to the law & other terms laid down,B & C(now 1 state) had to share their power(electricity) with them at "Reasonable" rates.

B & C who are now 1 state have a strong leader with a good vision, but a bankrupt state+lack of promised help from the centre

Today while A does well & credit themselves,B & C still suffer. Many cases regarding sharing of financial assets,real estate & other such stuff are in the courts.

Both of them abused & attacked each other & they still do.

Thus to an extent,I can understand what you are going through. Trust me I swear I am not lying
----------------------------------------
But the good news is this, Politicos & businessman from B & C invested heavily in A but forgot the vast & massive potential of their own region towards which they now look

If the vision of this state's new CM is followed & implemented with the Centre's vision for a new India, the state will be one of the top states in India in just 20 years & definitely better than A(now a state).

Same way, right now you are suffering a lot due to UK's decision.

Learn from the lessons & mistakes made & make the required changes to your Union to make sure the EU becomes a better,stronger & more amazing place on this planet 

Remember what UK did to you & make sure u make them pay for it by making yourself better than them & outsmarting them.

That's what many in B-C now say about A
[P.S.:- India supported UK as part of the larger EU]

My best wishes to the EU & the UK & hope both can co-operate & get along well with each other

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## mike2000 is back

flamer84 said:


> You have thrown a barely recovering European economy into chaos out of sheer stupidity.You deserve the worst and I hope you'll get it.The financial establishment in Frankfurt are overjoyed at taking the the money pie away from London.I hope Scotland and N Ireland brake free and never hear about the UK again



Lool LMAO..........give me a break, if Frankfurt was to be the world's leading financial centre it would have been one ages ago. Lol Our strengths,knowlwdge, skills, tech are not something you can buy or take away easilly. Its just the theory of comparative advantage mate. Its like saying if Germany was to quit the E.U then it wont be a leading engineering giant and she will lost all her skills and decline into oblivion. Lool Project fear yet again.

No single country in the world is doing us a favour(no country does towards another anyway) at the end of the day each country looks after their own interests first and foremost. So you trying to frame it as if the E.U did us some kind of favor is pure bullshit, do you also know our contribution towards the E.U? At the end of the day business is business and there are no favours. If not China will not be trading with much of its neighbours as they are all hostile to her, yet trade and investment continues and even flourishes.lol

Likewise, Our country is the world's 5th largest economy(and Europe's second largest after 80million strong Germany) with just over 60million people because of our own strengths and skills FIRST AND FOREMOST.Everything else is secondary. If it was because of the E.U then Greece, Bulgaria etc will also be one the wealthiest country in the world lol

As for wishing us the worse(many have in the past.lol) , well its nothing new to us, we have heard that so many times throughout this past century from our former colonies to middle eastern countries, etc yet here we are, with people all over the world still yearning to immigrate,live and study here for a better life as we have the world's most powerful passport.etc. 

So you wishing us the worse means nothing and we couldn't care less to be honest,........hmmmmmm........thinking about it, I don't even know if I even need to WISH Romania the worse.

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## anon45

Hope UK doesn't regret this. short term will be painful, and there remains a possibility for a total UK breakup from what I'm hearing. Tentative feelers for a 'United Ireland', Scotland requesting another referendum, and from what I see everywhere in Scotland voted to remain in EU).

UK no longer 5th largest economy due to devaluation, overtaken by France. Probably temporary and overreaction. Blood in the financial streets.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/franc...th-largest-economy-as-pound-plummets-5964746/


Interesting times, no government except Russia wants this to happen (obviously not UK's current ruling coalition) AFAIK.

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## SMS Derfflinger

hinduguy said:


> you can openly say those who bring money stay.. and those who leech can leave.. we all know what germans think already its no secret.



Indeed it is more likely that richer states like Netherlands, Denmark or Sweden are go then others, but who know it really, we will see. The entire process was so fast, so huge...even Rome wasn`t build on a day, how could someone think to build such a construct like the EU in few decades.

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## flamer84

LeveragedBuyout said:


> The EU has no choice but to negotiate a favorable treaty with the UK, to ensure that trade flows remain smooth.
> 
> http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/
> 
> View attachment 313255
> 
> 
> $420bn of imports from Europe, with Germany alone accounting for $100bn. Everyone who thinks that the EU will engage in a spiteful act of "punishment" is engaged in self-delusion, because the EU would only destroy its own economy. After everyone has time to cool their heads, a calm and measured discussion will take place.




Trade agreement will be negociated but the UK would still pay financially to be part of the market,roughly what they pay now but without having a say in decision making.This has solved nothing for them and,more importantly,London's position as a financial hub is terminated.Frankfurt will take its place.There are millions of British expats in Europe so freedom of movement should also be negociated.

They had a campaign based on lies,misinformation and they immediately backtracked on their promises,see the NHS 350 million/week promises.

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## mike2000 is back

Darmashkian said:


> European Army?? WHo will they fight-- Russia?
> 
> & who thought of this idea?



You will be surprise about the answer:
GERMANY. 
Even though they are one of the most reserved peaceful European country and they generally dont want to get involve in anything military(they even criticize us at times for our interventions abroad.lol ). 
I wonder what their real intention is for proposing such a toothless united ARMY.

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## flamer84

mike2000 is back said:


> Lool LMAO..........give me a break, if Frankfurt was to be the world's leading financial centre it would have been one ages ago. Lol Our strengths,knowlwdge, skills, tech are not something you can buy or take away easilly. Its just the theory of comparative advantage mate. Its like saying if Germany was to quit the E.U then it wont be a leading engineering giant and she will lost all her skills and decline into oblivion. Lool Project fear yet again.
> 
> No single country in the world is doing us a favour(no country does towards another anyway) at the end of the day each country looks after their own interests first and foremost. So you trying to frame it as if the E.U did us some kind of favor is pure bullshit, do you also know our contribution towards the E.U? At the end of the day business is business and there are no favours. If not China will not be trading with much of its neighbours as they are all hostile to her, yet trade and investment continues and even flourishes.lol
> 
> Likewise, Our country is the world's 5th largest economy(and Europe's second largest after 80million strong Germany) with just over 60million people because of our own strengths and skills FIRST AND FOREMOST.Everything else is secondary. If it was because of the E.U then Greece, Bulgaria etc will also be one the wealthiest country in the world lol
> 
> As for wishing us the worse(many have in the past.lol) , well its nothing new to us, we have heard that so many times throughout this past century from our former colonies to middle eastern countries, etc yet here we are, with people all over the world still yearning to immigrate,live and study here for a better life as we have the world's most powerful passport.etc.
> 
> So you wishing us the worse means nothing and we couldn't care less to be honest,........hmmmmmm........thinking about it, I don't even know if I even need to WISH Romania the worse.




Yes,you need to be reminded that stupidity has a price.Pulling this stunt after the 2008 economic fall out makes you,honestly,retarded.


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## SMS Derfflinger

mike2000 is back said:


> As for wishing us the worse(many have in the past.lol) , well its nothing new to us, we have heard that so many times throughout this past century from our former colonies to middle eastern countries, etc yet here we are, with people all over the world still yearning to immigrate,live and study here for a better life as we have the world's most powerful passport.etc.


Nope. Yes, I know...one point, but we want to be specific. 

https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php


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## mike2000 is back

anon45 said:


> Hope UK doesn't regret this. short term will be painful, and there remains a possibility for a total UK breakup from what I'm hearing. Tentative feelers for a 'United Ireland', Scotland requesting another referendum, and from what I see everywhere in Scotland voted to remain in EU).
> 
> UK no longer 5th largest economy due to devaluation, overtaken by France. Probably temporary and overreaction. Blood in the financial streets.
> 
> http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/franc...th-largest-economy-as-pound-plummets-5964746/
> 
> 
> Interesting times, no government except Russia wants this to happen (obviously not UK's current ruling coalition) AFAIK.



Obviously its natural, you expected markets to cheer?lol Markets dont like change, but after a short while they adapt and get used to the new normal, so this situation will last couple months at best and everything will stabilise once again as always and growth will resume...... normal cycle.
Nothing we didnt expect.

As for the rest its all juat talk, they will also get used to it once emotions calm down.

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## SOHEIL




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## SMS Derfflinger

mike2000 is back said:


> You will be surprise about the answer:
> GERMANY.


...Nee. ^^


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## LeveragedBuyout

flamer84 said:


> Trade agreement will be negociated but the UK would still pay financially to be part of the market,roughly what they pay now but without having a say in decision making.This has solved nothing for them and,more importantly,London's position as a financial hub is terminated.Frankfurt will take its place.There are millions of British expats in Europe so freedom of movement should also be negociated.
> 
> They had a campaign based on lies,misinformation and they immediately backtracked on their promises,see the NHS 350 million/week promises.



It's possible that the UK will choose a route similar to the Norwegians or Swiss, which gives them access but also forces them to pay a price. Or the UK can be a bit more clever and pursue other options, such as negotiating entry to NAFTA, a much larger market than the EU, and potentially benefiting from TTIP (if it passes). Such an arrangement would be optimal for the British, who have long wanted a trade agreement without other strings. NAFTA is such an agreement, as it does not restrict immigration controls, impose any kind of superstate, or demand grotesque financial contributions to maintain a slush-fund to be handed out to various other members.

Even if not NAFTA, the Commonwealth collection of states presents a much more enticing group of states with whom to trade, as their economies are more dynamic, growing more quickly, and are still experiencing the demographic dividend.

Finally, to close the circle, it's possible that the UK could significantly strengthen EFTA by joining. An EFTA with the UK's firepower may be powerful enough that EFTA would itself be able to negotiate better terms with the EU, simultaneously providing a better deal for access to the EU not only to the UK, but also Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, and Liechtenstein. As I stated above, the UK is critically important to the EU's economy--and the might of a combined UK-EFTA would be even more so.

Regarding the NHS, I must admit, as an American, I would like nothing better than to see that vestige of socialism destroyed as a warning to the fools who imposed Obamacare on us. I have never understood the British religion of NHS-worship, and I never will. So I see the collapse of NHS due to Brexit as a benefit, not a deterrent.

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## flamer84

LeveragedBuyout said:


> It's possible that the UK will choose a route similar to the Norwegians or Swiss, which gives them access but also forces them to pay a price. Or the UK can be a bit more clever and pursue other options, such as negotiating entry to NAFTA, a much larger market than the EU, and potentially benefiting from TTIP (if it passes). Such an arrangement would be optimal for the British, who have long wanted a trade agreement without other strings. NAFTA is such an agreement, as it does not restrict immigration controls, impose any kind of superstate, or demand grotesque financial contributions to maintain a slush-fund to be handed out to various other members.
> 
> Even if not NAFTA, the Commonwealth collection of states presents a much more enticing group of states with whom to trade, as their economies are more dynamic, growing more quickly, and are still experiencing the demographic dividend.
> 
> Finally, to close the circle, it's possible that the UK could significantly strengthen EFTA by joining. An EFTA with the UK's firepower may be powerful enough that EFTA would itself be able to negotiate better terms with the EU, simultaneously providing a better deal for access to the EU not only to the UK, but also Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, and Liechtenstein. As I stated above, the UK is critically important to the EU's economy--and the might of a combined UK-EFTA would be even more so.
> 
> Regarding the NHS, I must admit, as an American, I would like nothing better than to see that vestige of socialism destroyed as a warning to the fools who imposed Obamacare on us. I have never understood the British religion of NHS-worship, and I never will. So I see the collapse of NHS due to Brexit as a benefit, not a deterrent.




You are talking about a decade ong time frame of negociatios.I wish them good luck with that.

The funny thing is that the younger genneration voted REMAIN only to be snubbed by people who are future corpses in the short term.I guess they thought to dragg the entire country with them.

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## SOHEIL




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## JanjaWeed



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## anon45

LeveragedBuyout said:


> such as negotiating entry to NAFTA



I didn't even consider this at all as a possibility. That is an interesting option but how much resistance would there be for that in the UK?


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## asad71

The real winner, however, is US of A. The Americans wouldn't like to see their British colony engulfed in an EU. With UK are tied Canada, Australia, NZ and other Caribbean nations.


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## SOHEIL



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## Vergennes

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Regarding the NHS, I must admit, as an American, I would like nothing better than to see that vestige of socialism destroyed as a warning to the fools who imposed Obamacare on us. I have never understood the British religion of NHS-worship, and I never will. So I see the collapse of NHS due to Brexit as a benefit, not a deterrent.



Why are you against the Obamacare ?
Even the most conservative parts of France support the national health service and we have difficulties understanding why a lot of people in the US see that an obligatory health insurance scheme for all could be a bad thing ? 
Feel free to enlighten me !
-
Anyway, the situation of the NHS was very critical under the EU,I guess it would become even worse now.



flamer84 said:


> You are talking about a decade ong time frame of negociatios.I wish them good luck with that.
> 
> The funny thing is that the younger genneration voted REMAIN only to be snubbed by people who are future corpses in the short term.I guess they thought to dragg the entire country with them.



'Much has been said about the age divide, with the over-60s favouring Leave and younger voters choosing to Remain.

But a little-reported fact is that the very oldest segment of the population - those who remember the reality of fighting a war - are amongst the most likely to support Britain remaining in the EU. 
They know that we are stronger by working together with our friends and allies. '

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## flamer84

Vauban said:


> Why are you against the Obamacare ?
> Even the most conservative parts of France support the national health service and we have difficulties understanding why a lot of people in the US see that an obligatory health insurance scheme for all could be a bad thing ?
> Feel free to enlighten me !
> -
> Anyway, the situation of the NHS was very critical under the EU,I guess it would become even worse now.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Much has been said about the age divide, with the over-60s favouring Leave and younger voters choosing to Remain.
> 
> But a little-reported fact is that the very oldest segment of the population - those who remember the reality of fighting a war - are amongst the most likely to support Britain remaining in the EU.
> They know that we are stronger by working together with our friends and allies. '




75% of Remainers are under 35.It's the other way around for leave.The corpses destroyed the young generation's future.

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## Styx

Vauban said:


> But a little-reported fact is that the very oldest segment of the population - those who remember the reality of fighting a war - are amongst the most likely to support Britain remaining in the EU.
> They know that we are stronger by working together with our friends and allies. '


how does this affect NATO ?


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## livingdead

Geralt said:


> how does this affect NATO ?


the french will rename their army to EU army.. it will be business as usual for NATO...

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## flamer84

Geralt said:


> how does this affect NATO ?




Theoretically it doesn't but I do think that the trust in Britain is gone in Europe.They acted like a retard who suddenly jumped and grabbed the wheel of the car and now we're struggling not to crash into a tree.

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## SMS Derfflinger

Geralt said:


> how does this affect NATO ?


Nothing...the NATO is older than the EU.


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## Styx

flamer84 said:


> 75% of Remainers are under 35.It's the other way around for leave.The corpses destroyed the young generation's future.


hey, care to explain ? 

from the outside, I was a supporter of BREXIT. because being in-charge of your immigration/refugee policy and controlling your borders is very important, allowing millions of low skilled people who would not only very likely get on state welfare and strain housing, medical and other services that real citizens are entitled to, but would also drive down blue collar wages across the board, seems like a suicide plan.

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## xenon54 out

Didnt expect this result, still dont think there is any reason to be hysterical though, Brits are smart, they didnt join Eurozone from the begin with now one sees why, they want to stay independent.

Merkel was really disappointed though, you could hear it from her speech.
So, @mike2000 is back is UK gonna become 51st state of US or are you guys planning to revive the empire?

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## cleverrider

Jungibaaz said:


> Can't take what anymore?
> Our economy is going to have a revised outlook, revised meaning lower and more bleak. Market instability is just the first stage. Scotland can, and in fact should now vote for their independence from the UK.
> This will cause further disintegration in Europe too, it will inspire the nationalist right elsewhere in the EU.



Too early to call this, people/polls/bookies also called remained by a good margin. We do not even know for sure if there is going to be another referendum. After a year or 2 we will have a picture, Plenty of options on the way before all the above.


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## Styx

hinduguy said:


> the french will rename their army to EU army.. it will be business as usual for NATO...


lol



flamer84 said:


> Theoretically it doesn't but I do think that the trust in Britain is gone in Europe.They acted like a retard who suddenly jumped and grabbed the wheel of the car and now we're struggling not to crash into a tree.


they freed themselves from the mess, the refugee burden is on all of you lot now 



SMS Derfflinger said:


> Nothing...the NATO is older than the EU.


also past its expiry date, expect some changes there if Trump gets elected, which I think he probably will.

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## flamer84

Geralt said:


> hey, care to explain ?
> 
> from the outside, I was a supporter of BREXIT. because being in-charge of your immigration/refugee policy and controlling your borders is very important, allowing millions of low skilled people who would not only very likely get on state welfare and strain housing, medical and other services that real citizens are entitled to, but would also drive down blue collar wages across the board, seems like a suicide plan.




Except that they don't have the numbers to support this as statistics clearly point that EU migrants give more than they take to the British economy.They lost more today than 5 years of EU contributions and they will loose more.


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## LeveragedBuyout

anon45 said:


> I didn't even consider this at all as a possibility. That is an interesting option but how much resistance would there be for that in the UK?



To be honest, I produced that option off the cuff, and have not read of anyone else proposing it. I don't know how the British would receive such an idea, but superficially, it checks the boxes: free trade without the immigration or slush-fund payments. And it helps that we already share a common language, common-law legal system, and a generally laissez-faire view of markets and the role of government. On the other hand, the overlap between the Euroskeptics and the anti-American mob is quite large, as I understand it. We'll see, it's early days, yet.



Vauban said:


> Why are you against the Obamacare ?
> Even the most conservative parts of France support the national health service and we have difficulties understanding why a lot of people in the US see that an obligatory health insurance scheme for all could be a bad thing ?
> Feel free to enlighten me !
> -
> Anyway, the situation of the NHS was very critical under the EU,I guess it would become even worse now.



Our healthcare system is terrible in the US, with far higher costs and far worse outcomes. I admit that openly. But Obamacare is not the correct solution, because it puts us on the spectrum of socialized medicine. As you pointed out, the core component is obligatory health insurance. That level of state intervention is alien to America's founding values (as are many other atrocities against the Constitution imposed by Democrats and Republicans alike), but to have the government determine which hospitals one can visit, which doctors one can see, what medicines one is allowed to take--it's a bridge too far. These are literally life or death matters, and best left to the individual to decide. I am a pragmatist, and I believe that there should be a social safety net for those unable to afford health care, but there is a difference between the poor and deadbeats who don't pay until they have an emergency that needs to be addressed. Obamacare doesn't help the former: healthcare premiums have skyrocketed since the implementation of Obamacare, and the deductible, or the amount that patients must pay before insurance begins to cover costs, is now in the thousands of dollars, which is crippling to the middle class, let alone the poor. Obamacare primarily benefits deadbeats.

The NHS, specifically, is an abomination, with terrible service, long wait times, and a fatal dependence on cheap foreign labor to enable it to function. Hardly a model for the world, and in dire need of restructuring. Unfortunately, due to the cult-like worship of the NHS in Britain, no one is allowed to touch it unless a crisis emerges. ("Ring-fenced" finances = no accountability). The Brexit could catalyze such a crisis, which would be helpful to the British healthcare system in the long run, and thus I see this outcome as desirable.

I am unfamiliar with the French system, but I would be open to emulating it if it's more market-based than the NHS.

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## flamer84

Geralt said:


> they freed themselves from the mess, the refugee burden is on all of you lot now



After BREXIT more agressive steps towards the refugee problem will be taken or else the EU falls.It's their last chance.

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## AmirPatriot

Young people's votes got pushed out by leave. All they talk about is immigration, immigration, immigration. They put xenophobia above prosperity. 

I hope this ends Cameron's political career. He took a stupid gamble and now he's ruined it all.

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## xenon54 out

LeveragedBuyout said:


> To be honest, I produced that option off the cuff, and have not read of anyone else proposing it. I don't know how the British would receive such an idea, but superficially, it checks the boxes: free trade without the immigration or slush-fund payments. And it helps that we already share a common language, common-law legal system, and a generally laissez-faire view of markets and the role of government. On the other hand, the overlap between the Euroskeptics and the anti-American mob is quite large, as I understand it. We'll see, it's early days, yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Our healthcare system is terrible in the US, with far higher costs and far worse outcomes. I admit that openly. But Obamacare is not the correct solution, because it puts us on the spectrum of socialized medicine. As you pointed out, the core component is obligatory health insurance. That level of state intervention is alien to America's founding values (as are many other atrocities against the Constitution imposed by Democrats and Republicans alike), but to have the government determine which hospitals one can visit, which doctors one can see, what medicines one is allowed to take--it's a bridge too far. These are literally life or death matters, and best left to the individual to decide. I am a pragmatist, and I believe that there should be a social safety net for those unable to afford health care, but there is a difference between the poor and deadbeats who don't pay until they have an emergency that needs to be addressed. Obamacare doesn't help the former: healthcare premiums have skyrocketed since the implementation of Obamacare, and the deductible, or the amount that patients must pay before insurance begins to cover costs, is now in the thousands of dollars, which is crippling to the middle class, let alone the poor. Obamacare primarily benefits deadbeats.
> 
> The NHS, specifically, is an abomination, with terrible service, long wait times, and a fatal dependence on cheap foreign labor to enable it to function. Hardly a model for the world, and in dire need of restructuring. Unfortunately, due to the cult-like worship of the NHS in Britain, no one is allowed to touch it unless a crisis emerges. ("Ring-fenced" finances = no accountability). The Brexit could catalyze such a crisis, which would be helpful to the British healthcare system in the long run, and thus I see this outcome as desirable.
> 
> I am unfamiliar with the French system, but I would be open to emulating it if it's more market-based than the NHS.


Oh look who came back, hows it going dude long time since you posted here.


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## xenon54 out

AmirPatriot said:


> Young people's votes got pushed out by leave. All they talk about is immigration, immigration, immigration. They put xenophobia above prosperity.
> 
> I hope this ends Cameron's political career. He took a stupid gamble and now he's ruined it all.


Thats exactly what right wing wanted, all the right wing of continental Europe is cheering the result.

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## LeveragedBuyout

xenon54 said:


> Oh look who came back, hows it going dude long time since you posted here.



Hi @xenon54 , it's been a while. I never quite left (I was still lurking), but I have been shamed into participating again with the TTA elevation. Soon the PDF staff will realize their mistake and demote me, but in the interim, I feel a sense of obligation to contribute constructively to threads and try to show that we can accomplish much more by reasoned debate (preferably well-sourced) than by mud-slinging. Fingers crossed.

I also occasionally visit AMF under a different username, and I believe you joined as well, but I'm not a military guy, so there's less for me to see or do there.

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## Vergennes

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Our healthcare system is terrible in the US, with far higher costs and far worse outcomes. I admit that openly. But Obamacare is not the correct solution, because it puts us on the spectrum of socialized medicine. As you pointed out, the core component is obligatory health insurance. That level of state intervention is alien to America's founding values (as are many other atrocities against the Constitution imposed by Democrats and Republicans alike), but to have the government determine which hospitals one can visit, which doctors one can see, what medicines one is allowed to take--it's a bridge too far. These are literally life or death matters, and best left to the individual to decide. I am a pragmatist, and I believe that there should be a social safety net for those unable to afford health care, but there is a difference between the poor and deadbeats who don't pay until they have an emergency that needs to be addressed. Obamacare doesn't help the former: healthcare premiums have skyrocketed since the implementation of Obamacare, and the deductible, or the amount that patients must pay before insurance begins to cover costs, is now in the thousands of dollars, which is crippling to the middle class, let alone the poor. Obamacare primarily benefits deadbeats.
> 
> The NHS, specifically, is an abomination, with terrible service, long wait times, and a fatal dependence on cheap foreign labor to enable it to function. Hardly a model for the world, and in dire need of restructuring. Unfortunately, due to the cult-like worship of the NHS in Britain, no one is allowed to touch it unless a crisis emerges. ("Ring-fenced" finances = no accountability). The Brexit could catalyze such a crisis, which would be helpful to the British healthcare system in the long run, and thus I see this outcome as desirable.



I understand now,thanks.



> I am unfamiliar with the French system, but I would be open to emulating it if it's more market-based than the NHS.



You can learn everything about the french healthcare system here ;

http://about-france.com/health-care.htm

What is your opinion ?

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## xenon54 out

LeveragedBuyout said:


> Hi @xenon54 , it's been a while. I never quite left (I was still lurking), but I have been shamed into participating again with the TTA elevation. Soon the PDF staff will realize their mistake and demote me, but in the interim, I feel a sense of obligation to contribute constructively to threads and try to show that we can accomplish much more by reasoned debate (preferably well-sourced) than by mud-slinging. Fingers crossed.
> 
> I also occasionally visit AMF under a different username, and I believe you joined as well, but I'm not a military guy, so there's less for me to see or do there.


Looking at all the TTA's here you are one of the few people who deserve it, anyways nice to read your posts again, a nice break from the troll horde recently. 

Edit: ok dont wanna be harsh, many TTA's are good posters, certainly much better than me but the title has been given to too many people who dont deserve it.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> I also occasionally visit AMF under a different username, and I believe you joined as well, but I'm not a military guy, so there's less for me to see or do there.


Yeah im there from time to time, whats your name there?

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## Styx

flamer84 said:


> Except that they don't have the numbers to support this as statistics clearly point that EU migrants give more than they take to the British economy.They lost more today than 5 years of EU contributions and they will loose more.


I was referring specifically to the recent refugee influx, not migrants in general. 

Germany has taken in millions, and most, I'm guessing, are not very highly skilled, they will drive down blue collar wages for the natives.. good for oligarchs and industrialists, not so good for the everyday citizen.

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## livingdead

AmirPatriot said:


> Young people's votes got pushed out by leave. All they talk about is immigration, immigration, immigration. They put xenophobia above prosperity.
> 
> I hope this ends Cameron's political career. He took a stupid gamble and now he's ruined it all.


prosperity came to rich and middle class, not to poor. when you are working class and are feeling wage compression, you dont think about addition to GDP due to migration.. you think why is your family getting poorer.


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## Jungibaaz

cleverrider said:


> Too early to call this, people/polls/bookies also called remained by a good margin. We do not even know for sure if there is going to be another referendum. After a year or 2 we will have a picture, Plenty of options on the way before all the above.



Sorry, it's not uncertain, Brexit WILL BE bad for our economy for the foreseeable future, we're just discussing how bad, slump or recession.

I guaranteed it last night, speaking to some acquaintances, I told them to get some snacks and watch carnage on the FTSE unfold the next morning and it did, worst performance in years, banks like barclays were down 30% at one point and are still down about 10%. I told them Scotland is probably going to get its independence, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon just announced that it's highly likely. I also said in that post you quoted that our growth forecast would need to be revised down. And not even hours in to day one of Brexit, and JP Morgan cuts forecasts for Britain. The Bank of England has been providing liquidity to markets all day, and it too is now expecting weak economic performance, talks about rate cuts perhaps and definitely some quantitative easing.

These aren't some profound visions of the future I had, these were obvious consequences that economists had talked about for months, anyone somewhat versed in economics would know this.



Vauban said:


> I understand now,thanks.
> 
> You can learn everything about the french healthcare system here ;
> 
> http://about-france.com/health-care.htm
> 
> What is your opinion ?



Hey, how is this thing brexit being perceived in France?

I'm curious to know, fear, anger, disbelief, disappointment? Would love to hear from someone in France following this story.


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## LeveragedBuyout

Vauban said:


> I understand now,thanks.
> 
> You can learn everything about the french healthcare system here ;
> 
> http://about-france.com/health-care.htm
> 
> What is your opinion ?



It sounds similar enough to the US system (the old system) that I would be favorably inclined towards exploring it as an option for the US. However, the paragraph at the bottom explaining that the French healthcare system is also experiencing financial difficulties leads me to believe that it may not be the solution we need. If we are going to reform our system, we need to do it once, correctly, and permanently. If we institute a reform that inevitably leads to financial ruin (e.g. Obamacare), it's a useless reform. If the French system finds a way to permanently control costs and remain solvent while preserving patient choice, I think it will be a viable model for the US--but that's a very, very difficult problem to solve without looking like the NHS and using wait-lists, rationing, and price controls.

Nevertheless, thanks for the introduction. The French system certainly merits further study, so I will continue to research it.

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## Deliorman

Britain has the potential to be successful even if it's not a member of the EU. London is a world capital and arguably the most important city worldwide- a center of trade, fashion, finance, transport, sports, culture all the way between Hong Kong to Dubai to Vancouver. Those who are now wishing the worst to Britain will be very disappointed to know that Britain and it's biggest corporations operate worldwide and that the country has a strong economical relations with economies like the USA, Canada, China, Gulf countries, Australia and New Zealand, South Africa, India in most of it's former colonies a lot of whom are still under it's Crown. Britain exiting the EU also doesn't mean the trade will stop completely as Europe also needs Britain. Great Britain is not a poor Eastern European country that begs the EU for money on every 5 years- it is (or maybe was  ) a country that pays much more money to the budget of the EU so poor countries from the East can get funded...

EU will lose more than Britain and I wish good luck to the British great nation! This EU was getting more and more retarded with time anyway so the faster it is gone, the better.

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## LeveragedBuyout

xenon54 said:


> Yeah im there from time to time, whats your name there?



"Capitalist" (LeveragedBuyout was rejected as too long). But I visit only infrequently.

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## JanjaWeed

Bad move for Britain! Just what Scottish nationalists wanted.. just the oxygen needed to re-energize their stalled independence demand. Another referendum is not far away. Northern Ireland will try to gain something out of today's shock result. Downing street should have expected this before boldly announcing the referendum! 

Then again.. Brussels won't be spared either. There will be wave of demands for referendum in other countries such as Netherlands, France, Denmark, Sweden etc.. Today's result is a lose-lose situation for both EU & UK!

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## cleverrider

Jungibaaz said:


> Sorry, it's not uncertain, Brexit WILL BE bad for our economy for the foreseeable future, we're just discussing how bad, slump or recession.
> 
> I guaranteed it last night, speaking to some acquaintances, I told them to get some snacks and watch carnage on the FTSE unfold the next morning and it did, worst performance in years, banks like barclays were down 30% at one point and are still down about 10%. I told them Scotland is probably going to get its independence, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon just announced that it's highly likely. I also said in that post you quoted that our growth forecast would need to be revised down. And not even hours in to day one of Brexit, and JP Morgan cuts forecasts for Britain. The Bank of England has been providing liquidity to markets all day, and it too is now expecting weak economic performance, talks about rate cuts perhaps and definitely some quantitative easing.
> These aren't some profound visions of the future I had, these were obvious consequences that economists had talked about for months, anyone somewhat versed in economics would know this.




In regards to FTSE performance, majority of the firms and financial experts predicted remained winning. Therefore Leaving came as a surprise and caused a little mess, but the Bank of England, Chancellor and others are at it since last night to bring everything back to normal. Give it some time, Brexist implications when it comes to economy are still unpredictable even though experts are saying, it’s not looking good but these are the same experts that favoured remained campaign. In regards to Scotland, they voted to remain in UK. We will have to wait and see, like I said a year or 2 and we will have a better picture.


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## Jungibaaz

cleverrider said:


> In regards to FTSE performance, majority of the firms and financial experts predicted remained winning. Therefore Leaving came as a surprise and caused a little mess, but the Bank of England, Chancellor and others are at it since last night to bring everything back to normal. Give it some time, Brexist implications when it comes to economy are still unpredictable even though experts are saying, it’s not looking good but these are the same experts that favoured remained campaign. In regards to Scotland, they voted to remain in UK. We will have to wait and see, like I said a year or 2 and we will have a better picture.



The market's response is the news story today, the real fallout is what economists are talking about. Also, your missing the point here, when the Bank of England talks about rate cuts and more QE, especially when rates are 0.5% already (!!!), that means that they expect a weak performing economy right from the word go, remember, uncertainty is nothing to celebrate, the sort of mentality that says uncertainty means some x percentage chance that Brexit goes well, that's not how it works.

Markets know this and uncertainty always sees them run for the hills.

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## Vergennes

Jungibaaz said:


> Hey, how is this thing brexit being perceived in France?
> I'm curious to know, fear, anger, disbelief, disappointment? Would love to hear from someone in France following this story.



Many french were in favor of the brexit. (According to polls,only 41% wanted the UK to remain.) 
Wether it's to see Britain being kicked out for some reasons or because they wanted someone to open the path for more countries to follow thinking that the EU was a mistake and has no future. (Things like lack of democracy,immigration etc.)
-
As for politicians ; 

Marine Le Pen and her party are very happy of the results and are also calling for a referendum to decide if we should stay or leave the European Union.
-
The major other parties and their officials are very disappointed by the results,but are saying that we should take lessons from it and refound the Union because,they fear a somewhat 'domino effect' and because the number of eurosceptics is growing.
-
In my opinion,those that are affected the most and that are very disappointed are the british expats in France.

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## terry5

Signs going up in England


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## Styx

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746382922077376512

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746375692795908096

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## ChineseTiger1986

mike2000 is back said:


> The world is a very big place.
> Too bad the U.S is not in our commonwealth. lol



Good, it looks like you are planning to build more of these toys in the future.

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## TheNoob

I dont think it makes much of a difference.
UK wasn't fully like EU before anyway, or atleast economically.


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## PDF

Soon... The EU has seen enough of its days. Time to end this...

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## Darmashkian

JanjaWeed said:


> Bad move for Britain! Just what Scottish nationalists wanted.. just the oxygen needed to re-energize their stalled independence demand. Another referendum is not far away. Northern Ireland will try to gain something out of today's shock result. Downing street should have expected this before boldly announcing the referendum!
> 
> Then again.. Brussels won't be spared either. There will be wave of demands for referendum in other countries such as Netherlands, France, Denmark, Sweden etc.. Today's result is a lose-lose situation for both EU & UK!


I believe Northern Ireland will stay. 45% voted for #Brexit. And the Protestant community has shown little inclination to leave the United Kingdom to join a united Ireland.

Scotland will not leave so easily bhai . Read @waz 's posts

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## Anubis

Vauban said:


> Many french were in favor of the brexit. (According to polls,only 41% wanted the UK to remain.)
> Wether it's to see Britain being kicked out for some reasons or because they wanted someone to open the path for more countries to follow thinking that the EU was a mistake and has no future. (Things like lack of democracy,immigration etc.)
> -
> As for politicians ;
> 
> Marine Le Pen and her party are very happy of the results and are also calling for a referendum to decide if we should stay or leave the European Union.
> -
> The major other parties and their officials are very disappointed by the results,but are saying that we should take lessons from it and refound the Union because,they fear a somewhat 'domino effect' and because the number of eurosceptics is growing.
> -
> In my opinion,those that are affected the most and that are very disappointed are the british expats in France.


If you leave the EU...then EU should change its name to the Fourth Reich.

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## Pakistani E

Well I did predict this yesterday. 

Can't say I am too displeased. Glad Dodgy Dave will be gone by October.

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## Vergennes

Pakistani Exile said:


> Well I did predict this yesterday.
> 
> Can't say I am too displeased. Glad Dodgy Dave will be gone by October.



So do you prefer Boris and his clique instead ? 



Anubis said:


> If you leave the EU...then EU should change its name to the Fourth Reich.



Why so ?

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## Anubis

Vauban said:


> So do you prefer Boris and his clique instead ?
> 
> 
> 
> Why so ?


The only country that will have unparalleled control of the EU will be Germany...and we all know what happens when you put the three words Germany,control and Europe in one sentence!


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## Pakistani E

Vauban said:


> So do you prefer Boris and his clique instead ?
> 
> 
> 
> Why so ?



God No. 

Boris is the type of fella who you'd go with for a Pint, not really someone I want to see as the PM. 

The most likely scenario is an early election, but I am out of ideas on which party or politician should rule. I am fed up with all of them.

Corbyn too far left. Farage too far right. Conservatives are only good at cutting everything, while Labour are the opposites. 

I am tempted to support a regional party, maybe we can push for a referendum on our succession and return to the age of petty kingdoms.

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## Darmashkian

waz said:


> They are in power, but they don't have a majority in parliament. Yes they had 44.7% but that was against 55.3, statistically that is very hard to close. Europe is in dire straights at the moment. Other states will also vote against Scotland , do you know about the separatist problems in Spain? Spain has said they would boycott such membership. They would also have to adopt the Euro which they don't want to do and accept a whole raft of new legislation that the Scotts don't want.


Exactly what I've been telling everyone who talks of Irish reunification & Scottish Azadi Sir.

Firstly Northern Ireland:-
Northern Ireland has a very delicate community situation, Azadi is only possible when Catholics & Protestants BOTH want a poll
"_Under the rules set down by the 1998 Good Friday peace deal there cannot be a poll on Irish unity or remaining within the UK unless the majority of political representatives of both communities in Northern Ireland demand it._" - Theresa Villiers

& even if both communities support some sort of poll . The anti-EU vote is 45%. There must be around at least 5-7% who voted for Bremain who support being in the UK.

Also
https://whistlinginthewind.org/2012/12/13/a-catholic-majority-in-the-north/
Read this too
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i...orthern-ireland-after-brexit-result-gn82nkwjr

& Scotland:-
What about their income?Oil prices have come down.
What about their currency?Will they be foolish to take the Euro & UK will let them have no say in the GBP when independent
& I heard their deficit is really bad & will become worse
& most important of all,will Spain or some other nation allow them entry in the EU knowing their Catalonia problem?

@JanjaWeed bhai



jaunty said:


> Statistically they need a swing of 6% as I said before, not a huge margin by any means. In the light of current events, that's a very manageable swing.
> 
> 
> 
> Once the UK is out of the EU, Spain's threats won't mean much. The UK is already out, so Scotland's entry would be an addition to the structure, I don't think there would be any opposition to that.


I don't think Spain would want a nation separated from the UK to join the EU until it receives massive pressure from the rest of the EU. That would give confidence & hope to the Catalonians.


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## Proudpakistaniguy

[video]


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## jamal18

Germany is the EU's largest economy. The UK is the second largest. Brexit leaves Germany virtually omnipotent, and the EU is now effectively a German empire.


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## flamer84

Anubis said:


> If you leave the EU...then EU should change its name to the Fourth Reich.




Latest polls show 26% for leaving in France.No chance.



jamal18 said:


> Germany is the EU's largest economy. The UK is the second largest. Brexit leaves Germany virtually omnipotent, and the EU is now effectively a German empire.




Correction,after today,the UK slipped behind France in GDP value.



Pakistani Exile said:


> God No.
> 
> Boris is the type of fella who you'd go with for a Pint, not really someone I want to see as the PM.
> 
> The most likely scenario is an early election, but I am out of ideas on which party or politician should rule. I am fed up with all of them.
> 
> Corbyn too far left. Farage too far right. Conservatives are only good at cutting everything, while Labour are the opposites.
> 
> I am tempted to support a regional party, maybe we can push for a referendum on our succession and return to the age of petty kingdoms.




Mercia in the EU !

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## UKBengali

flamer84 said:


> Correction,after today,the UK slipped behind France in GDP value.



Just a temporary phenomenon. UK currency will regain most of the loss quite quickly.

You are aware that the French economy is locked in a cycle of 1% GDP growth and the UK has already made a deal with China to safeguard it's economic future?


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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> [video]




Ofcourse,speaking for Russia Today 

Oh Britain,you've been taken for a ride.....

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Ofcourse,speaking for Russia Today
> 
> Oh Britain,you've been taken for a ride.....


WHAT THE HELL?
did you even bother to watch ? 

I think the referendum was quite clear. The vote was essentially a vote against freedom of movement. If that means no single market then so be it.


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## pakdefender

mike2000 is back said:


> Seriously what's wrong with yoy muslim islamist and religion??
> You people see Everything through Religion . . No wonder your region is the way it is today. Lol Better to focus on Pakistan's many troubles and middle eastern sectarian wars, Guess you definitely know more about that than the topic at hand. Lol



I said this is an undercurrent, being English one would have thought you would have better comprehension of your own language

And if religion didn't matter at all then the hym , and did those feet in ancient times by William Blake, would never be so popular that it would be considered as the national anthem of England 

Nigel Farage for his part has said we know what the European project is about, it has a flag , it has an anthem , it plans to have its army .. Hence we are out of it

This is not just about economics 

Speaking of flag , it's the cross of St George that's on your flag , he was an economist was he ?


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## LeveragedBuyout

xenon54 said:


> Yeah im there from time to time, whats your name there?



Memory is failing. My username on AMF is "Strategist," not "Capitalist." Apologies, but I just don't visit that often.

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## flamer84

Proudpakistaniguy said:


> WHAT THE HELL?
> did you even bother to watch ?
> 
> I think the referendum was quite clear. The vote was essentially a vote against freedom of movement. If that means no single market then so be it.




Except that Boris the blade immediately said that the Brits still want to travel to Europe,Farage openly admitted that 350 million GBP a week for the NHS was a lie,UKIP want the same trade deals,etc....You'll be paying the same without having a vote.This kind of situation is known as "proper f$cked"

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## Proudpakistaniguy

flamer84 said:


> Except that Boris the blade immediately said that the Brits still want to travel to Europe,Farage openly admitted that 350 million GBP a week for the NHS was a lie,UKIP want the same trade deals,etc....You'll be paying the same without having a vote.This kind of situation is known as "proper f$cked"


Its too early to predict about future as article 50 is not being invoked immediately. David Cameron will resign and the new Prime Minister will take the decision to invoke Article 50 so till then the status quo continues and the EEA Regulations and EU law remains in force. There is no short-term change in the EEA Regulations/EU law until further notice. That will likely only happen after the conservative party leadership elections

*Statement from the Governor of the Bank of England following the EU referendum result*

The people of the United Kingdom have voted to leave the European Union.

Inevitably, there will be a period of uncertainty and adjustment following this result. 

There will be no initial change in the way our people can travel, in the way our goods can move or the way our services can be sold.

And it will take some time for the United Kingdom to establish new relationships with Europe and the rest of the world.

Some market and economic volatility can be expected as this process unfolds.

But we are well prepared for this. The Treasury and the Bank of England have engaged in extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I have been in close contact, including through the night and this morning.

The Bank will not hesitate to take additional measures as required as those markets adjust and the UK economy moves forward.

These adjustments will be supported by a resilient UK financial system – one that the Bank of England has consistently strengthened over the last seven years.

The capital requirements of our largest banks are now ten times higher than before the crisis.

The Bank of England has stress tested them against scenarios more severe than the country currently faces.

As a result of these actions, UK banks have raised over £130bn of capital, and now have more than £600bn of high quality liquid assets.

Why does this matter? 

This substantial capital and huge liquidity gives banks the flexibility they need to continue to lend to UK businesses and households, even during challenging times.

Moreover, as a backstop, and to support the functioning of markets, the Bank of England stands ready to provide more than £250bn of additional funds through its normal facilities.

The Bank of England is also able to provide substantial liquidity in foreign currency, if required.

We expect institutions to draw on this funding if and when appropriate, just as we expect them to draw on their own resources as needed in order to provide credit, to support markets and to supply other financial services to the real economy.

In the coming weeks, the Bank will assess economic conditions and will consider any additional policy responses.

Conclusion

A few months ago, the Bank judged that the risks around the referendum were the most significant, near-term domestic risks to financial stability.

To mitigate them, the Bank of England has put in place extensive contingency plans.

These begin with ensuring that the core of our financial system is well-capitalised, liquid and strong.

This resilience is backed up by the Bank of England's liquidity facilities in sterling and foreign currencies.

All these resources will support orderly market functioning in the face of any short-term volatility.

The Bank will continue to consult and cooperate with all relevant domestic and international authorities to ensure that the UK financial system can absorb any stresses and can concentrate on serving the real economy.

That economy will adjust to new trading relationships that will be put in place over time.

It is these public and private decisions that will determine the UK's long-term economic prospects.

The best contribution of the Bank of England to this process is to continue to pursue relentlessly our responsibilities for monetary and financial stability.

These are unchanged.

We have taken all the necessary steps to prepare for today's events.

In the future we will not hesitate to take any additional measures required to meet our responsibilities as the United Kingdom moves forward.


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## SMS Derfflinger

I have think about this...and come to the conclusion, it feels like the loss of family. I will miss you guys.

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## Taygibay

Jungibaaz said:


> Would love to hear from someone in France following this story.



It's a special case for us, man! We will remain friends with the Brits ( and assorted Celts ) no matter what.
The mil work for example ( we are building an expeditionary corps together and have a huge past in good
/great _co-_weapons programs ) is unlikely to change all that much. This won't renege the Lancaster House
treaties.

As a follow-through, the differences in Foreign Policies won't vary either and nor will the similarities. As top
countries go, interests overrule circumstances. F_P is based on strategic choices not political experiments.

We may also count on Germany within the EU not to risk too much, if not for sure to get the message.
Mutti is going to be very busy flogging and pleasing everyone at once, incl. world affairs, which limits her options.

Europe has to be tough with the soon-to-be-ex UK, make an example, etc. and that can't be spared ...
but at the same time, it would have to make it possible for most exchanges to keep alive'n kicking.

And then the markets will require balance, a weigh-in to determine who pays and who gains, wins or loses.


But then one draws in a big breath, exhales slowly and thinks about how :

- The correct way is for a new government to enact this referendum into reality;
- That won't be in function before October after Cameron's gone;
- That would then have to ask for the withdrawal to the EU, the polite and legal thing to do;
- A process that under provisions from Brussels/Strasbourg is to last 2 years;
- But which practical considerations might force to see extended, times 3 or 4 so 6+ years;
- And last but not least that referendums are not legally binding for the government in the UK;
- The last resort of which remains in the Queen and her Council & Lords.

In other words, you can have a beer, it's only half-time and it will be a long one!
And a historical moment always breaks the monotony and ensuing boredom ...

that sort of things! Take care, Tay.

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## Deliorman

Grieving family reveal war veteran's dying wish was for them to post his Leave vote because 'he was fighting for this country until the end'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-vote-fighting-country-end.html#ixzz4CXVuq3VI

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## Desert Fox

@Vauban @flamer84 @vostok @senheiser @C130 @XenoEnsi-14 @SMS Derfflinger @Steve781 @mike2000 is back @Bundeswehr

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## pakdefender

A bit of exaggeration there by (((Ben Garrison)))


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## Kuwaiti Girl



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## The Sandman

Desert Fox said:


>


Poor sweden......

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## Kuwaiti Girl

Without the European Union, Europe will go back to being the hotbed of wars and conflicts:

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## SMS Derfflinger

Kuwaiti Girl said:


> Without the European Union, Europe will go back to being the hotbed of wars and conflicts:



Nope.

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## mike2000 is back

xenon54 said:


> Didnt expect this result, still dont think there is any reason to be hysterical though, Brits are smart, they didnt join Eurozone from the begin with now one sees why, they want to stay independent.
> 
> Merkel was really disappointed though, you could hear it from her speech.
> So, @mike2000 is back is UK gonna become 51st state of US or are you guys planning to revive the empire?


Thats where people go wrong. We are not leaving Europe, we cant even if we wanted to. Lol We are not GOD afterall to move our land/geographical location. Lol We will still be Europeans , we(like some European countries) will not just be in the E.U thats all. Nothing much will change apart from some minor issues. I don't understand why people are so woke up by this. Lol 
All these fear mongering and overreaction is uncalled for but understandable. Europe will keep moving forward, but it will be a new Europe with new rules and an E.U more willing to reform than be complacent, which is good for the continent as a whole.



Kuwaiti Girl said:


> Without the European Union, Europe will go back to being the hotbed of wars and conflicts:


Keep dreaming

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## Metanoia

Boy oh boy....people are making _olympus _out of a mole hill. The Scandinavian countries have existed without being part of the EU....why can't the UK? 

Even the Brexit supporters said that there will be a short term economic shock...which we are currently witnessing. However in the long run things will be back to normal (or even great) for the UK.

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## SvenSvensonov

Metanoia said:


> The Scandinavian countries have existed without being part of the EU.



But two of the three Scandinavian nations (Sweden, Denmark, Norway) are EU member states.






Only Norway isn't:






Three out of the five Nordic nations are also part of the EU. Again, Norway isn't, and neither is Iceland. Sweden, Denmark and Finland are EU member nations.

Norway subsists mostly on resource exports including gas and oil to Mainland Europe and maintains strong economic ties and favorable trade deals with the EU, as Britain may now explore. Iceland subsists on black metal and Norwegian good will.

*Iceland's economy is actually rather diverse and government expenditures are very low compared to the other Nordic nations. It's energy imports are also tiny as most of its power comes from geothermal.

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## Arabian Stallion

Kuwaiti Girl said:


> Without the European Union, Europe will go back to being the hotbed of wars and conflicts:



Europe has historically been a hotbed of civil wars, wars, world wars, religious and sectarian conflicts etc.
The scale of which have never been seen anywhere else. Whether in distant eras or more recent ones (WW1, WW2). This map clearly illustrates something that every knowledgeable person was well aware of. It's a shame for the trolls from a few European countries here that desperately try to paint another picture while embarrassing themselves in the process.

As for the EU, which is an alien construct in in many ways, is doomed to fragment further. This is just the beginning. Unless the institution seriously reforms.

Anyway Europe is an aging and declining continent. Its influence/importance will only decrease for each year. Asia will regain its traditional place as the most dominant continent in a not too distant future. Simple demographics will ensure that. There is a reason why China, India and the Arab world have been the most wealthy and advanced areas of the world for millennia before the rise of Europe, starting in the 14th century.

As for why the UK left, well, it is mainly due to the immigration policy and the increasingly supranational decision-making procedures in the EU that alienates the ordinary man and woman in most member states.

The arguments mentioned in this video below are probably widespread among the Brexit voters in the UK.






Anyway from an European perspective Brexit is bad news as it weakens the already struggling EU. I don't understand why the UK did not use its energy to try and reform the EU instead of abandoning ship. My cousins in London, who mostly voted to remain, are quite baffled by the result. Especially as yesterday's result might lead to the fragmentation of not only the EU but the UK itself! Ironically most Brexit voters are Unionists and they probably did not imagine that their opposition to the EU could open the Pandora's box in this regard! Hilarious in many ways. It is crucial for Europe's future influence to remain united rather than fragmented if the goal is to keep the current influence alive. Ironically the nationalists in Europe want a return to the idea of strong nation states rather than the openly declared goal of the EU to create a strong federal European state. Anyway I am sure that the UK will survive.

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## A.P. Richelieu

JanjaWeed said:


> Bad move for Britain! Just what Scottish nationalists wanted.. just the oxygen needed to re-energize their stalled independence demand. Another referendum is not far away. Northern Ireland will try to gain something out of today's shock result. Downing street should have expected this before boldly announcing the referendum!
> 
> Then again.. Brussels won't be spared either. There will be wave of demands for referendum in other countries such as Netherlands, France, Denmark, Sweden etc.. Today's result is a lose-lose situation for both EU & UK!



In Sweden, 72% of voters want to remain, so a referendum is not on the table.
We are closer to joining NATO than leaving EU.


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## vostok

Desert Fox said:


> View attachment 313309​

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## Madali

Kuwaiti Girl said:


>



I saw those charts in the Guardian but isn't it more concerning that UK has so many people without formal qualification?

And wouldn't people without formal qualification, let's say people such as plumbers and cab drivers, are more concerned about their future and are seeing competition from east European immigrants, than a bunch of kids in London who have just gotten their liberal arts degree?

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## mike2000 is back

SMS Derfflinger said:


> I have think about this...and come to the conclusion, it feels like the loss of family. I will miss you guys.


We are still here.


Arabian Stallion said:


> Europe has historically been a hotbed of civil wars, wars, world wars, religious and sectarian conflicts etc.
> The scale of which have never been seen anywhere else. Whether in distant eras or more recent ones (WW1, WW2). This map clearly illustrates something that every knowledgeable person was well aware of. It's a shame for the trolls from a few European countries here that desperately try to paint another picture while embarrassing themselves in the process.
> 
> As for the EU, which is an alien construct in in many ways, is doomed to fragment further. This is just the beginning. Unless the institution seriously reforms.
> 
> Anyway Europe is an aging and declining continent. Its influence/importance will only decrease for each year. Asia will regain its traditional place as the most dominant continent in a not too distant future. Simple demographics will ensure that. There is a reason why China, India and the Arab world have been the most wealthy and advanced areas of the world for millennia before the rise of Europe, starting in the 14th century.
> 
> As for why the UK left, well, it is mainly due to the immigration policy and the increasingly supranational decision-making procedures in the EU that alienates the ordinary man and woman in most member states.
> 
> The arguments mentioned in this video below are probably widespread among the Brexit voters in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway from an European perspective Brexit is bad news as it weakens the already struggling EU. I don't understand why the UK did not use its energy to try and reform the EU instead of abandoning ship. My cousins in London, who mostly voted to remain, are quite baffled by the result. Especially as yesterday's result might lead to the fragmentation of not only the EU but the UK itself! Ironically most Brexit voters are Unionists and they probably did not imagine that their opposition to the EU could open the Pandora's box in this regard! Hilarious in many ways. It is crucial for Europe's future influence to remain united rather than fragmented if the goal is to keep the current influence alive. Ironically the nationalists in Europe want a return to the idea of strong nation states rather than the openly declared goal of the EU to create a strong federal European state. Anyway I am sure that the UK will survive.



Another scaremongering dream about how we and Europe are going to collapse. Lol nothing new we haven't heard before.Lol. I will like to see those fearmongers reaction a while from now when things get back to normal and life/growth resumes. I'm sure they will move on to the next doomsday prediction about another country's future. You are right about one thing though, Only a fool will think we can't survive and thrive outside the E.U when small backward countries who are nowhere near us are able to suevive and thrive. Lol

As for Your question about why we didnt stay IN to reform the E.U from the inside. Lool You are funny bruv, seems you dont have a proper knowledge of Europe and the E.U. For the past 40 years, successive British Prime Ministers have tried to make our EU membership work for Britain. So far, whether it was Margaret Thatcher’s hard-line stance, or Tony Blair’s supine grovelling, none have succeeded in positively changing the terms of our long-term EU membership or reforming the E.U as European bureaucrats don't want any changes or reforms

David Cameron had already stated his intention to stay within a ‘reformed’ EU. However,many brits feared this was to be a replay of Harold Wilson’s ill-fated 1975 Referendum, in which largely cosmetic ‘renegotiation’ misled the public into staying. Junker gave the game away when he said 1 day before pur vote that: THERE WILL BE NO MORE REFORMS/NEGOTIATION WHETHER THE U.K REMAINS OR NOT'.lol . Now I bet he will swallow back his words.
http://order-order.com/2016/06/22/juncker-no-reform-vote-remain/

In short E.U bureaucrats don't want any change, if one of Europe's most influential power couldn't even get these useless E.U bureaucrats to reform, then there is no country in the world who will be able to do that. Lol. The E.U will still continue though, life goes on, its not like its the end of the world. However, they need serious reforms and urgently. The way they handled the refugee crisis shows just how pathetic the E.U makes its laws.



SvenSvensonov said:


> But two of the three Scandinavian nations (Sweden, Denmark, Norway) are EU member states.
> 
> View attachment 313323
> 
> 
> Only Norway isn't:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three out of the five Nordic nations are also part of the EU. Again, Norway isn't, and neither is Iceland. Sweden, Denmark and Finland are EU member nations.
> 
> Norway subsists mostly on resource exports including gas and oil to Mainland Europe and maintains strong economic ties and favorable trade deals with the EU, as Britain may now explore. Iceland subsists on black metal and Norwegian good will.
> 
> *Iceland's economy is actually rather diverse and government expenditures are very low compared to the other Nordic nations. It's energy imports are also tiny as most of its power comes from geothermal.



Hahaha....... 
Norway stronger and richer outside the E.U

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## The Sandman

SvenSvensonov said:


>


 "Norway is a serious threat to freedom and democracy"

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## Kuwaiti Girl

Britain went from this:






To this:

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## mike2000 is back

Kuwaiti Girl said:


> Britain went from this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To this:



That's because he never had the 'luxury' to deal with E.U bureaucrats. If he did today, he will NEVER HAVE ALLOWED GREAT BRITAIN to join in the first place.

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## livingdead

Madali said:


> I saw those charts in the Guardian but isn't it more concerning that UK has so many people without formal qualification?
> 
> And wouldn't people without formal qualification, let's say people such as plumbers and cab drivers, are more concerned about their future and are seeing competition from east European immigrants, than a bunch of kids in London who have just gotten their liberal arts degree?


by formal qualification you mean degree? I don't think everybody needs a degree although its upto individuals to decide.
and yes, low skilled people were more upset.. for the reason you said..


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## Kuwaiti Girl

mike2000 is back said:


> That's because he never had the 'luxury' to deal with E.U bureaucrats. If he did today, he will NEVER HAVE ALLOWED GREAT BRITAIN to join in the first place.


He dealt with Hitler. He would've easily overcome all these silly EU obstacles that the pro-Brexiters were crying about.

Churchill was a true gentleman.

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## mike2000 is back

Kuwaiti Girl said:


> He dealt with Hitler. He would've easily overcome all these silly EU obstacles that the pro-Brexiters were crying about.
> 
> Churchill was a true gentleman.



Maybe you are right, but then again that was in the past, the game was different back then.

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## waz

C130 said:


> congrats to the UK for gaining it's independence from the supra-natural entity known as the EU.
> 
> you will have two years to work out the details of this divorce, it's not like you are out of the EU at this moment.
> 
> it's the EU that is scared that other countries will hold their own referendums like the Netherlands and win!!!.
> 
> 
> EU chose millions of migrants over the interests of it's native sons, now they reap what they sow.



Thank you friend. It has been heartwarming seeing the various messages and reassurances from our closest ally the US.



jaunty said:


> @waz Nicola Sturgeon is already highlighting the fact that Scotland has voted to remain in the EU, despite an overall loss. Watch out.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746185725356343298



Yes we have seen how socialist economies are doing around the world, look at Venezuela....We don't need to watch out, the Scots, bar the nationalists are the only ones asking for a referendum. We'll come to that bridge when we need to. 
You should focus on India. We don't need your "concerns".

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## vostok

@mike2000 is back
For a few days, "the main demon" in the "world media" is not Russia!

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## waz

Stephen Cohen said:


> @waz
> 
> The TRANSITION itself would be so painful -- That Brexiters would have their
> *heads in their hands
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @waz
> 
> Britain WON the Second World War
> 
> But NOW GERMANY will PUT Britain in its place --Show them the Reality that
> UK is a weak economy
> 
> And USA will not come to UK's rescue



The UK is a powerful eocnomy. The Germans have already talked about building strong ties with the new independent UK, maybe you missed the chancellor's interview. The Germans will put us in our place, not according to all the news they won't. They have far more important things to attend to.
ALso stop using all the attached pictures, they don't make your posts more credible.



Aether said:


> What a terrible day in the history of UK.
> 
> No doubt why more educated class voted for Remain.
> 
> Now uncertainty prevails for the future of scotland and the whole of Europe. Pound at record lows, already lost about 17p of 1700 points overnight.
> 
> I wont be surprised if its slashed by another 5%. (lost more than 10% value overnight)



I'm educated, as are millions of others who voted for leave. Yes more "degree holding areas" voted for remain, but being in education I also know the power of indoctrination, and how over the years many lecturers have plugged this whole we are European and not British nonsense. I've taken several individuals to task over this.
The markets are recovering, short term shock was predicted.
This is the greatest day in British history for the *MAJORITY* of the country. The people have spoken.

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> Thank you friend. It has been heartwarming seeing the various messages and reassurances from our closest ally the US.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes we have seen how socialist economies are doing around the world, look at Venezuela....We don't need to watch out, the Scots, bar the nationalists are the only ones asking for a referendum. We'll come to that bridge when we need to.
> You should focus on India. We don't need your "concerns".


you dont get it do you...

the scots are calling for a referendum and it near enough gurantied they will go independant and remain in the eu they were the main driving force behind the remain campain. heck even the big red bus saying we can give 350 million to the nhs every week. that was a lie.
here look at this big red bus instead. 




trying to get a eu fta or agood deal will take years and fta... your looking at a decade. seen the value of the pound? or the london stock exchange.. wait stock exchanges of the world near enough all of them took a hit. heck even pakistans kse took a hit too.
we need a united states of europe it does need tweeks but it could be done. 

heck alot of the people who voted leave are now starting to regret it and blame the media for not helping them make a decision.

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## waz

Kuwaiti Girl said:


> I hope the members around here realize that this referendum is not legally binding.
> 
> In other words, the UK government will find an excuse to remain part of the EU.
> 
> This referendum is just a ploy. The elites will never allow their European project to fail.
> 
> The UK government will use the referendum results as a means to pressure the EU into making more concessions.
> 
> It's all about getting a better deal from Brussels as far as London is concerned.
> 
> Should the UK really leave the EU, it'll be the end of the UK as we know it. Scotland will then secede and join the EU.
> 
> That'll isolate England and eventually force it into reintegrating with mainland Europe.
> 
> All emotions aside, if you think about this pragmatically, you'd realize that the referendum means absolutely nothing.



You sure do love your conspiracy theories. I'll ask you to take a look at what the official announcements from Brussels are i.e. that article 50 should be involved and the UK should hasten the process to leave.

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## UKBengali

Blue Marlin said:


> you dont get it do you...
> 
> the scots are calling for a referendum and it near enough gurantied they will go independant and remain in the eu they were the main driving force behind the remain campain.



Are you aware that with the lowering of oil prices, that Scotland has a budget deficit of 10% of GDP?

Without UK government subsidies, an independent Scotland will have it's living standards reduced to the level of Spain.

Canny Scots will not accept such a huge reduction in living standards, in return for EU inclusion which will take many years to happen after they leave the UK.

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## waz

Blue Marlin said:


> you dont get it do you...
> 
> the scots are calling for a referendum and it near enough gurantied they will go independant and remain in the eu they were the main driving force behind the remain campain. heck even the big red bus saying we can give 350 million to the nhs every week. that was a lie.
> here look at this big red bus instead.
> View attachment 313501
> 
> trying to get a eu fta or agood deal will take years and fta... your looking at a decade. seen the value of the pound? or the london stock exchange.. wait stock exchanges of the world near enough all of them took a hit. heck even pakistans kse took a hit too.
> we need a united states of europe it does need tweeks but it could be done.
> 
> heck alot of the people who voted leave are now starting to regret it and blame the media for not helping them make a decision.



I 100% do get it, it's just you can't accept the result and it's high time you do.

There are no guarantees the Scots will go independent. There are already jitters there about what has happened and with SNP harping on about an independence is making them fear greatly for their future.
The 350 million was a lie according to who? The Farage comment was his, he wasn't part of this campaign and ran his own.
How do you know free trade deals will take years? The South Koreans are already asking for one. EU red tape and it's need to protect uncompetitive economies, hampered them, that's not the same for the UK.
There will be short term uncertainly on the markets, that was accepted and now we are seeing stabilisation and the next step is recovery.
We don't need a United States of Europe and I find the idea of that sickening, as does the majority of the country, including many on the remain side.
Lot's of people are regretting it? No they're not, the mood is of jubilation and excitement for the future. The only regrets are from the remain camp, who thought that London spoke for the rest of the country.



UKBengali said:


> Are you aware that with the lowering of oil prices, that Scotland has a budget deficit of 10% of GDP?
> 
> Without UK government subsidies, an independent Scotland will have it's living standards reduced to the level of Spain.
> 
> Canny Scots will not accept such a huge reduction in living standards, in return for EU inclusion which will take many years to happen after they leave the UK.



Don't forget the debts they owe, Royal Bank of Scotland anyone?

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## Blue Marlin

UKBengali said:


> Are you aware that with the lowering of oil prices, that Scotland has a budget deficit of 10% of GDP?
> 
> Without UK government subsidies, an independent Scotland will have it's living standards reduced to the level of Spain.
> 
> Canny Scots will not accept such a huge reduction in living standards, in return for EU inclusion which will take many years to happen after they leave the UK.


oil prices are very slowly going up again. and relying on oil is a bad idea un less you invest the money in foreign investments like norway. not like the saudis who just put it in the bank and spend it on weapons. 
exactly why they want to be in europe they are supported and somthing to fall on. and the eu is a bigger cusion than the uk.
as for migrants... well the british landborder wont be in france it will be here and they will be migrant camps here. and the french will be happy to send them here. they dont want them. and they can come over here and can just claim asylum and live of benefits.


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## mike2000 is back

vostok said:


> @mike2000 is back
> For a few days, "the main demon" in the "world media" is not Russia!


........................enjoy why it lasts.

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## waz

flamer84 said:


> They have thrown us in a artificial economic crisis for their pride.Never forget this day and British folly.Let's hope that the rest of Europe will rally and move on.Scotland must be encouraged towards independence.



Nice of you to try to encourage the break-up of our country, what happened to being a friend of the UK? Your true colours show now. This makes me even more resolute that folks wished nothing but harm upon us.

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## UKBengali

waz said:


> Don't forget the debts they owe, Royal Bank of Scotland anyone?



BMW has already urged for tariff-free trade between the UK and Germany.

UK gets tariff-free trade and does not have to hand-over 10 billion pounds a year to the EU every year. In addition it can also make trade deals with countries all over the world without having to do this via the EU.

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## waz

flamer84 said:


> I hope that the UK won't be given an agreement like Switzerland and Norway and the EU makes an example of them.Capital flight will happen and that capital must be directed in Europe.
> 
> This must be remembered as the day when the UK has destroyed itself.



There you go folks, our European friends for you lol. 
Most don't share your opinions anyway.
We will get a deal and I'll come back to your posts.....


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## Armstrong

waz said:


> There you go folks, our European friends for you lol.
> Most don't share your opinions anyway.
> We will get a deal and I'll come back to your posts.....



You shouldn't have had the right to vote 'cause you're not a real Brit ! 

You don't eat Haggis, you don't like battered fish and chips, you can't stand Yorkshire pudding and you think that Gin & Tonic is the name of some cough syrup !

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## waz

flamer84 said:


> I'm very calm,amazed at British stupidity but calm.The EU will make an example of the UK because they need to do this to survive.



It's not stupidity, it's demoracy. Stop abusing a country that has given so much to your own people i.e. work and a decent standard of living!

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## UKBengali

waz said:


> There you go folks, our European friends for you lol.
> Most don't share your opinions anyway.
> We will get a deal and I'll come back to your posts.....



They are mainly upset that they are going to lose the free ride that they have had from the UK taxpayer, and the ability to turn up at a moment's notice and work in the most dynamic economy in the EU.

Currently UK pays a little less than Germany into EU - 10 billion pounds net for UK and 12 billion pounds net for Germany. If the projected GDP growth rates for UK and Germany hold true, then by 2020 UK will be paying in as much as Germany.

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> I 100% do get it, it's just you can't accept the result and it's high time you do.
> 
> There are no guarantee the Scots will go independent. There already jitters there about what has happened and with SNP harping on about an independence is making them fear greatly for their future.
> The 350 million was a lie according to who? The Farage comment was his, he wasn't part of this campaign and ran his own.
> 
> How do you know free trade deals will take years? The South Koreans are already asking for one. EU red tape and it's need to protect uncompetitive economies, hampered them, that's not the same for the UK.
> There will be short term uncertainly on the markets, that was accepted and now we are seeing stabilisation and the next step is recovery.
> 
> We don't need a United States of Europe and I find the idea of that sickening, as does the majority of the country, including many on the remain side.
> 
> Lot's of people are regretting it? No they're not, the mood is of jubilation and excitement for the future. The only regrets are from the remain camp, who thought that London spoke for the rest of the country.


lets see who gets it.

the scots will go independant they only just remained. now the snp cover the best part of all of scotland and want to leave the uk. nicola is quiet good with the labour government and the london mayor. but she hates the tories. and also the before the scotish referendum we didn't give a sh!t about them but when they want to leave............ dont leave us, better together. and once they remained they got a few goodies and thats it.

the stock market will bounce back up..... i know that, but what about the value of the stirling?

also this is not 1910 when we had the empire those days are over 100 years ago. we face large millitary and economic threats from asia and we need to be able to deal with it. 
united states of europe baby. but i would like us to keep the stirling though .


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## Armstrong

On a side note - UK being in or out of the EU is not the end of the world and it was surprising to see the doom and gloom scenarios that the 'remain' campaigners were whipping up while the 'leave' kept giving the impression that this would be the best thing that could ever happen to Britain. 

Exaggerations, fear mongering, utter confusion and a whole of things said in bad taste, were the hallmark of this referendum !

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## mike2000 is back

waz said:


> I 100% do get it, it's just you can't accept the result and it's high time you do.
> 
> There are no guarantee the Scots will go independent. There already jitters there about what has happened and with SNP harping on about an independence is making them fear greatly for their future.
> The 350 million was a lie according to who? The Farage comment was his, he wasn't part of this campaign and ran his own.
> How do you know free trade deals will take years? The South Koreans are already asking for one. EU red tape and it's need to protect uncompetitive economies, hampered them, that's not the same for the UK.
> There will be short term uncertainly on the markets, that was accepted and now we are seeing stabilisation and the next step is recovery.
> We don't need a United States of Europe and I find the idea of that sickening, as does the majority of the country, including many on the remain side.
> Lot's of people are regretting it? No they're not, the mood is of jubilation and excitement for the future. The only regrets are from the remain camp, who thought that London spoke for the rest of the country.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget the debts they owe, Royal Bank of Scotland anyone?


This is what Scottish main political figures/parties have been saying:

Opposition leaders at Holyrood - who all backed Remain ahead of the referendum - shared Ms Sturgeon's disappointment at the result.
But both Ruth Davidson of the Conservatives and Scottish Labour's Kezia Dugdale said it did not justify holding another independence referendum.
Ms Davidson said an independence vote would not help the country achieve stability, and was not in the best interests of the people of Scotland.
She added: "The 1.6 million votes cast in this referendum in favour of remain do not wipe away the two million votes that we cast less than two years ago.
"And we do not address the challenges of leaving the European Union by leaving our own Union of nations, our biggest market and our closest friends.
"I believe in Scotland's place within the United Kingdom today as much as ever."

Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale said fundamental questions asked during the independence campaign, such as those over currency, remained unanswered.

"Labour's manifesto ruled out a second referendum in the lifetime of this Parliament - we won't be changing our minds any time soon," she added.

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## waz

MarkusS said:


> None of this will change with BREXIT.
> 
> The UK will be forced to open market just as norway and switzerland and allow evry EU citizen into it and working permits as well.
> 
> Beside that its obvious that the UK breaks apart from this. Scotland wants to remain in the EU with overwhelming numbers. Scotland wont allow to be led into isolation



Everything changes chap. Just keep on watching.



mike2000 is back said:


> This is what Scottish main political figures/parties have been saying:
> 
> Opposition leaders at Holyrood - who all backed Remain ahead of the referendum - shared Ms Sturgeon's disappointment at the result.
> But both Ruth Davidson of the Conservatives and Scottish Labour's Kezia Dugdale said it did not justify holding another independence referendum.
> Ms Davidson said an independence vote would not help the country achieve stability, and was not in the best interests of the people of Scotland.
> She added: "The 1.6 million votes cast in this referendum in favour of remain do not wipe away the two million votes that we cast less than two years ago.
> "And we do not address the challenges of leaving the European Union by leaving our own Union of nations, our biggest market and our closest friends.
> "I believe in Scotland's place within the United Kingdom today as much as ever."
> 
> Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale said fundamental questions asked during the independence campaign, such as those over currency, remained unanswered.
> 
> "Labour's manifesto ruled out a second referendum in the lifetime of this Parliament - we won't be changing our minds any time soon," she added.



Davidson is a beast! Even though she was for remain she has been the main driving force behind reducing the SNP to a non-majority in the Scotish parliament.

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## Armstrong

mike2000 is back said:


> This is what Scottish main political figures/parties have been saying:
> 
> Opposition leaders at Holyrood - who all backed Remain ahead of the referendum - shared Ms Sturgeon's disappointment at the result.
> But both Ruth Davidson of the Conservatives and Scottish Labour's Kezia Dugdale said it did not justify holding another independence referendum.
> Ms Davidson said an independence vote would not help the country achieve stability, and was not in the best interests of the people of Scotland.
> She added: "The 1.6 million votes cast in this referendum in favour of remain do not wipe away the two million votes that we cast less than two years ago.
> "And we do not address the challenges of leaving the European Union by leaving our own Union of nations, our biggest market and our closest friends.
> "I believe in Scotland's place within the United Kingdom today as much as ever."
> 
> Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale said fundamental questions asked during the independence campaign, such as those over currency, remained unanswered.
> 
> "Labour's manifesto ruled out a second referendum in the lifetime of this Parliament - we won't be changing our minds any time soon," she added.



Yes...yes, Mikey we want an Independent Scotland; finally the dreams of Mel Gibson...I mean...William Wallace will be realized ! 

Haggis as the National Dish, Rugby as the National Sport and the Scottish Kilt as the National Dress - I am so emotional right now !

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## waz

UKBengali said:


> They are mainly upset that they are going to lose the free ride that they have had from the UK taxpayer, and the ability to turn up at a moment's notice and work in the most dynamic economy in the EU.
> 
> Currently UK pays a little less than Germany into EU - 10 billion pounds net for UK and 12 billion pounds net for Germany. If the projected GDP growth rates for UK and Germany hold true, then by 2020 UK will be paying in as much as Germany.



Their tears are just bringing smiles to me.



MarkusS said:


> You are not going anywhere without there approval. We live in the 21st century. You dont follow the rules then you are out.
> 
> Also with all honesty you arent europe and never where. You are americas colony sadly said but Blair sold you out.



We wil do as we please. The EU is becoming more irrelevant with each day. You can hear the calls of referendums already erupting from various parts of the EU.



MarkusS said:


> It wont works like this amigo.
> 
> The UK is out and never really was in. I visited UK and its an alien culture and not european in any way.
> 
> Simple fact is that your people will propably need visa to get entry into italy.
> 
> You forget one thing. You say the terms will be different. They will but in our way of interest. Now we can push our conditions on the UK.



The fact remains that thousands of young Italians are leaving Italy for jobs here in the UK. Your youth unemployment rate is at 36%!!!!!!!!!!You are in no position to dictate to us!

Your country needs our tourist money, so go ahead put those visas. Just remember how many Italians are here. Our folks will just holiday in Norway or other countries.

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## Stephen Cohen

@waz 

UK 's only problem with EU was about Migration 

That could have been solved without leaving EU 

The economic and trade benefits that accrued to UK 
were more by remaining in EU than coming out of it


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## waz

Stephen Cohen said:


> @waz
> 
> UK 's only problem with EU was about Migration
> 
> That could have been solved without leaving EU
> 
> The economic and trade benefits that accrued to UK
> were more by remaining in EU than coming out of it



It was about sovereignty.
States are doing just fine outside the EU as well.



MarkusS said:


> I dont love the UK. I love Scotland. Visited the Isle of Skye and it was amazing. I had to cross england though to get there and that part was rather disgusting.
> 
> Emotions arent running high. I see this as good for europe. The UK was americas poodle that pressed europe down. Now we get rid of them and can be free.



We got rid of you lol. We'll also take our money back.



mike2000 is back said:


> We play no role or have no influence in the WORLD?? Even more so, Coming from an Italian ?? JOKE OF THE CENTURY.
> Why are you speaking English in the first place? Ask yourself why. Lool



Don't forget they can't provide jobs for their kids. Oh do you feel their power lmao!


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## vostok

mike2000 is back said:


> ........................enjoy why it lasts.


As they say - "Bread of freedom is always bitter".

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## waz

mike2000 is back said:


> If we are a military dwarf as you claim, what is Italy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italy itself spends just about as much as Iraq on its military, Germany doesnt want to even hear about anything military even less so deployments/fighting a war overseas, this leaves only France as the country who will carry everything on its shoulders. How can this European Army function with such 'committed' countries?lol. Good luck with that though.




LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Desertfalcon

Armstrong said:


> Haggis as the National Dish,

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## waz

flamer84 said:


> You have thrown a barely recovering European economy into chaos out of sheer stupidity.You deserve the worst and I hope you'll get it.The financial establishment in Frankfurt are overjoyed at taking the the money pie away from London.I hope Scotland and N Ireland brake free and never hear about the UK again



Your hate makes us stronger. 
Lol finance going to Frankfurt, even though they ran from mainland Europe due to the crippling legislation they kept on passing on the finance industry. 
N.Ireland is going no where, the unionists will see to that. Apart from the nationalists, no wants another referendum in Scotland. 
You wil hear about us with even greater vigour. Don't wish ill upon us dear chap, worry about your own country.



LeveragedBuyout said:


> The EU has no choice but to negotiate a favorable treaty with the UK, to ensure that trade flows remain smooth.
> 
> http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/
> 
> View attachment 313255
> 
> 
> $420bn of imports from Europe, with Germany alone accounting for $100bn. Everyone who thinks that the EU will engage in a spiteful act of "punishment" is engaged in self-delusion, because the EU would only destroy its own economy. After everyone has time to cool their heads, a calm and measured discussion will take place.



Excellent post bro. Plain facts.

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## MarkusS

waz said:


> Their tears are just bringing smiles to me.
> 
> 
> 
> We wil do as we please. The EU is becoming more irrelevant with each day. You can hear the calls of referendums already erupting from various parts of the EU.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact remains that thousands of young Italians are leaving Italy for jobs here in the UK. Your youth unemployment rate is at 36%!!!!!!!!!!You are in no position to dictate to us!
> 
> Your country needs our tourist money, so go ahead put those visas. Just remember how many Italians are here. Our folks will just holiday in Norway or other countries.



you know i believed the UK and Italy are united as friends. Now you say things like this. That our tears make you smile and such stuff


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## waz

MarkusS said:


> you know i believed the UK and Italy are united as friends. Now you say things like this. That our tears make you smile and such stuff



Look at your posts bro. I will fight my country's corner with passion, just like you. If we can call a peace on this thread, I'm fine with it. But the abuse started from mainland Europeans.


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## Armstrong

MarkusS said:


> you know i believed the UK and Italy are united as friends. Now you say things like this. That our tears make you smile and such stuff









You've made me so emotional with that.... @waz bhai take your words back....cancel the referendum now !


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## MarkusS

waz said:


> Look at your posts bro. I will fight my country's corner with passion, just like you. If we can call a peace on this thread, I'm fine with it. But the abuse started from mainland Europeans.



we live in so turbulent times. we just recover from economic crisis. Now you do this...do you care at least a little bit about europe or just for yourself? why break with us like that? 

thats a huge victory for putin and his divide et impera doctrine. we will have to lift sanctions against russia now to compensate the damage. 

also the way you talk about us. freeloaders and all that...


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## waz

Armstrong said:


> You've made me so emotional with that.... @waz bhai take your words back....cancel the referendum now !



I'll take my words back once the abuse of my country stops from people, otherwise they can expect even worse. As for the referendum our people decided that is democracy. I was more more than willing to accept a remain vote and work with it. I wouldn't have hurled abuse, or started petitions, or called people retards for their democratic choice.



MarkusS said:


> we live in so turbulent times. we just recover from economic crisis. Now you do this...do you care at least a little bit about europe or just for yourself? why break with us like that?
> 
> thats a huge victory for putin and his divide et impera doctrine. we will have to lift sanctions against russia now to compensate the damage.
> 
> also the way you talk about us. freeloaders and all that...



My friend hear me out. 
We had to do this. Our prime minister went to Brussels with a set of reforms. They were shot down and he was belttield. He came back with nothing. Had Brussels listened, you would have had a resounding remain vote. We were pushed into a corner and our European friends didn't care.
Italy isn't a freeloader. I haven't called anyone that. I made a comment about jobs which i regret now. I just want the abuse to stop, and let us all get on.

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> There you go folks, our European friends for you lol.
> Most don't share your opinions anyway.
> We will get a deal and I'll come back to your posts.....


no thats just him being a hypocrite and a leec,h hating us and then coming here making money to build his little hut in romania.


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## waz

Blue Marlin said:


> no thats just him being a hypocrite and a leec,h hating us and then coming here making money to build his little hut in romania.



Bro I'm shocked at what he is coming out with. It's just the worst abuse of every kind.

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> Bro I'm shocked at what he is coming out with. It's just the worst abuse of every kind.


indeed leeching of us and then trying to get rid of us...
on a side note there is one good thing 15 ee families moved out of councilhouses and made there way to dover. 
i see some cheap houses comming on the market. and if they come back they ain't welcome.

you in particular im quiet suprised really i would have had you for a remainer, but oh well....
if we get a good deal from the eu and drug nicola sturgeon, turn nasty to the scots promising them hell and financail ruin we may have a chance of keeping them in. 

then its happy days. but i have a strange feeling bojo will be pm and i think thats what he wanted all along. and thats what we need someone wild to scare the scots into remaining.


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## MarkusS

waz said:


> I'll take my words back once the abuse of my country stops from people, otherwise they can expect even worse. As for the referendum our people decided that is democracy. I was more more than willing to accept a remain vote and work with it. I wouldn't have hurled abuse, or started petitions, or called people retards for their democratic choice.
> 
> 
> 
> My friend hear me out.
> We had to do this. Our prime minister went to Brussels with a set of reforms. They were shot down and he was belttield. He came back with nothing. Had Brussels listened, you would have had a resounding remain vote. We were pushed into a corner and our European friends didn't care.
> Italy isn't a freeloader. I haven't called anyone that. I made a comment about jobs which i regret now. I just want the abuse to stop, and let us all get on.



thats not possible. this thing destroyed much. Its like a friend who tells you he dont want this friendship anymore. that is very emotional and very hard to overcome. this isnt about deals. its much worse. europe is important. now that uk leaves us alone we must step into its position. now italy is nr. 3....and i dont know if we can keep that responsibility at this moment whithall those big problems.


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## Kambojaric

Well the Scots arent going to back off now. They will go for independence now definitely.


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## waz

Blue Marlin said:


> indeed leeching of us and then trying to get rid of us...
> on a side note there is one good thing 15 ee families moved out of councilhouses and made there way to dover.
> i see some cheap houses comming on the market. and if they come back they ain't welcome.
> 
> you in particular im quiet suprised really i would have had you for a remainer, but oh well....
> if we get a good deal from the eu and drug nicola sturgeon, turn nasty to the scots promising them hell and financail ruin we may have a chance of keeping them in.
> 
> then its happy days. but i have a strange feeling bojo will be pm and i think thats what he wanted all along. and thats what we need someone wild to scare the scots into remaining.



More housing stock will be available for sure. The pressure should ease. It's a good time to buy.
I've always been an outer bro. This has been the case for a decade, I just saw how things were headed and just drew a line in the sand.
So far the signs are promising for example the republic of Korea has asked for a free trade deal. Others will come. As for Scotland, we have Davidson there;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36613544

Do remember it was only 62%, the rest didn't and the leader of the SNP said herself that she isn't sure that a majority of that 62% will back a split from the union. Also turnout for Scotland was low, so it doesn't reflect Scotland entirely. 
We'll see about Bojo. I hear the conservative MP's don't want him, but the party does! 
Sit tight bro, we need our people to be united, regardless of what we voted.



MarkusS said:


> thats not possible. this thing destroyed much. Its like a friend who tells you he dont want this friendship anymore. that is very emotional and very hard to overcome. this isnt about deals. its much worse. europe is important. now that uk leaves us alone we must step into its position. now italy is nr. 3....and i dont know if we can keep that responsibility at this moment whithall those big problems.



It was a political union with many states, our ties with Italia are not one and the same thing. We haven't left Europe to drift in the abyss, we are in NATO, we will trade and stay friends.

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## Blue Marlin

waz said:


> We'll see about Bojo. I hear the conservative MP's don't want him, but the party does!
> *Sit tight bro, we need our people to be united, regardless of what we voted.*


very true!!!

whats your thoughts on the south asain business secutary sajid javid, some are saying he may be a dark horse.


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## MarkusS

waz said:


> More housing stock will be available for sure. The pressure should ease. It's a good time to buy.
> I've always been an outer bro. This has been the case for a decade, I just saw how things were headed and just drew a line in the sand.
> So far the signs are promising for example the republic of Korea has asked for a free trade deal. Others will come. As for Scotland, we have Davidson there;
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36613544
> 
> Do remember it was only 62%, the rest didn't and the leader of the SNP said herself that she isn't sure that a majority of that 62% will back a split from the union. Also turnout for Scotland was low, so it doesn't reflect Scotland entirely.
> We'll see about Bojo. I hear the conservative MP's don't want him, but the party does!
> Sit tight bro, we need our people to be united, regardless of what we voted.
> 
> 
> 
> It was a political union with many states, our ties with Italia are not one and the same thing. We haven't left Europe to drift in the abyss, we are in NATO, we will trade and stay friends.



but you left. all those things like cooperation, exchange programs and so on ends now. you reduce us to "business deals". We suffer heavily from that. 

you want free trade but dont help in europe and pay your part to make europe a better place. you made fun about our unemployment rate and its true. maybe you can force a deal on us. you reduce friends you care for to "business partners" you dont care for.


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## waz

MarkusS said:


> but you left. all those things like cooperation, exchange programs and so on ends now. you reduce us to "business deals". We suffer heavily from that.
> 
> you want free trade but dont help in europe and pay your part to make europe a better place. you made fun about our unemployment rate and its true. maybe you can force a deal on us. you reduce friends you care for to "business partners" you dont care for.



We left an entity that no longer listened to us, or understood us. Some individual states did. Italy being one. That's the basis for continued friendship.
We will help in Europe, for example among many things anti smuggling operations, aid etc.
I apologise about making fun of your unemployment rate, things got heated in this thread.
Before the ECT came, we didn't just base our links on trade. That spirit will continue.

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## MarkusS

waz said:


> We left an entity that no longer listened to us, or understood us. Some individual states did. Italy being one. That's the basis for continued friendship.
> We will help in Europe, for example among many things anti smuggling operations, aid etc.
> I apologise about making fun of your unemployment rate, things got heated in this thread.
> Before the ECT came, we didn't just base our links on trade. That spirit will continue.



i dont know. if we break apart we will just be minions of the great powers. the only nation sble to hold europe on its shoulders is germany now and if they get tired evrything will go down. russia sees all this as a big chance.


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

I would like to see more splintering of the E.U.

Squabble away please  

Merkel let in 1,000,000 men with many of dubious background, I hope she lets in more to further disillusion the E.U.

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## ChineseTiger1986

MarkusS said:


> i dont know. if we break apart we will just be minions of the great powers. the only nation sble to hold europe on its shoulders is germany now and if they get tired evrything will go down. russia sees all this as a big chance.



You are already the minions of the US, so be it.

What's point to keep maintaining a wannabe superpower like EU, but the de facto minion of the US?

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## waz

MarkusS said:


> i dont know. if we break apart we will just be minions of the great powers. the only nation sble to hold europe on its shoulders is germany now and if they get tired evrything will go down. russia sees all this as a big chance.



No break. The EU will be fine. Germany and France.

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## vostok

MarkusS said:


> russia sees all this as a big chance.


We do not want anything from you, except for fair mutual trade.

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## Darmashkian

@LeveragedBuyout @waz
I did some research on custom duties in the EU & i found out:-
The Custom duties on Trucks is 42% just to keep out Cheaper Chinese and Indian Trucks.

Under EU anti dumping Laws, the tarrifs on Chinese Solar Panels is between 17% and 42%. So much for the EU promoting Renewable Energy.

I found the " British will starve " statement to be nonsense.
The average tarrif on Agricultural Products is 18%. Most of the tarrifs exceeding 100% are on Agricultural Products.
Isoglucose has a tarrif of 604%.

Through the Common Agricultural Policy, the British have to subsidise inefficient French Farmers.

Then via external tarrifs, their ability to buy from American, Indian, African and Chinese farmers diminishes.

If anything, the EU is starving Britain.

Next, comes the question of clout, yes, the British will have to lower tariffs for the Chinese, Indians and Americans.
But this is a good thing. It will give the British the chance to focus on what they do best and it will expand the choices for the British Consumers away from the stuff produced by the EU dinosaur businesses. If the new Uk govt. doesn things right, they can opt for stuff from around the globe now which will now have less/no tariffs



vostok said:


> As they say - "Bread of freedom is always bitter".


But the fact that is YOUR bread & yours alone to control makes it sweet  That's what I think sir .

& If it isn't tasty, we can always blame our closest geo-political enemy or rival 



vostok said:


> We do not want anything from you, except for fair mutual trade.


He is talking about the weakening of the EU. Won't it be good for Russia & Putin to see it's biggest rival in Europe fall apart. THat will leave the field open for it to take over the Baltic states & get back Ukraine?

By the way do u live in Ukraine? I thought things were bad for Russians there.

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## SMS Derfflinger

waz said:


> We left an entity that no longer listened to us, or understood us. Some individual states did. Italy being one. That's the basis for continued friendship.
> We will help in Europe, for example among many things anti smuggling operations, aid etc.
> I apologise about making fun of your unemployment rate, things got heated in this thread.
> Before the ECT came, we didn't just base our links on trade. That spirit will continue.



You are right and maybe the only good thing from Brexit would be if the EU is change something...but right now, it hurts.

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## livingdead

Kambojaric said:


> Well the Scots arent going to back off now. They will go for independence now definitely.


scots routinely get drunk ..paint their face blue and watch braveheart... and declare independence.. its what they do every weekend.. nothing special...


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## waz

Darmashkian said:


> @LeveragedBuyout @waz
> I did some research on custom duties in the EU & i found out:-
> The Custom duties on Trucks is 42% just to keep out Cheaper Chinese and Indian Trucks.
> 
> Under EU anti dumping Laws, the tarrifs on Chinese Solar Panels is between 17% and 42%. So much for the EU promoting Renewable Energy.
> 
> I found the " British will starve " statement to be nonsense.
> The average tarrif on Agricultural Products is 18%. Most of the tarrifs exceeding 100% are on Agricultural Products.
> Isoglucose has a tarrif of 604%.
> 
> Through the Common Agricultural Policy, the British have to subsidise inefficient French Farmers.
> 
> Then via external tarrifs, their ability to buy from American, Indian, African and Chinese farmers diminishes.
> 
> If anything, the EU is starving Britain.



Your research is spot on. I'm looking forward to massive trade between the UK and India, China etc.

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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> but you left. all those things like cooperation, exchange programs and so on ends now. you reduce us to "business deals". We suffer heavily from that.
> 
> you want free trade but dont help in europe and pay your part to make europe a better place. you made fun about our unemployment rate and its true. maybe you can force a deal on us. you reduce friends you care for to "business partners" you dont care for.



Don't be so heart broken bruv. Thing is we will still cary on cooperating and trading with italy and Europe. So things aren't that bad. For example we brought in Germany and Italy into our Tyhoon fighter jet project making it a successfull pan-European project. This shows when european powers are really committed and have the will, they can achieve alot(Do you mean you will pull out from such projects since we are not part of E.U? )
Anyway, However, im afraid to say the E.U lacks this will and urge to reform/reinvent itself today. They are too complacent and that is a very dangerous thing when a union cant adapt to change. We tried several times to reform the E.U from inside but failed, as many countries seem to take a backseat on several issues, so we grew frustrated and now you see the results. I mentioned this in a thread here not long ago.

https://defence.pk/threads/britain-...ants-quota-system-in-u-k.419256/#post-8108281

This is just one of many examples though. But it helped tipped the balance in leave's favour.

Europe needs urgent reforms and make sure it listens carefully to its people concerns instead of brushing them aside for political correctness, complacency and political reasons etc

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## vostok

Darmashkian said:


> But the fact that is YOUR bread & yours alone to control makes it sweet  That's what I think sir .
> 
> & If it isn't tasty, we can always blame our closest geo-political enemy or rival


This saying comes from the history of the Exodus. In the desert the Jews ate matzah - the bitter bread. But they were free.


Darmashkian said:


> He is talking about the weakening of the EU. Won't it be good for Russia & Putin to see it's biggest rival in Europe fall apart. THat will leave the field open for it to take over the Baltic states & get back Ukraine?
> 
> By the way do u live in Ukraine? I thought things were bad for Russians there.


Germany, Britain or France or EU are not rivals of Russia. Russian rival is the US and its militaristic NATO block. Britain will still be a member of NATO, so that nothing change for Russia.
Yes, I live in Ukraine. Madness of Maidan subsides little by little, life returns to normal. 5 million of my countrymen have become free from the Ukraine (Crimea and Donbass). I am sure that sooner or later all of Eastern Ukraine will reunite with Mother Russia.

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## Louiq XIV

Darmashkian said:


> Through the Common Agricultural Policy, the British have to subsidise inefficient French Farmers.



Complete BS. France is a net contributor to the EU budget so technically France pays for its farmers and more.

And farming is subsidised everywhere in the EU it's not specific to France at all. They are by no mean more inefficient than say British farmers.


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## mike2000 is back

vostok said:


> 5 million of my countrymen have become free from the Ukraine (Crimea and Donbass). I am sure that sooner or later all of Eastern Ukraine will reunite with Mother Russia.


Hahaha......good one. Keep expanding, gives us even more reason to urge those pussy european countries to increase their commitment towards NATO. Even though we know they won't as usual and tje burden will still fall under the U.S and U.K as. Always. lol


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## LeveragedBuyout

Darmashkian said:


> @LeveragedBuyout @waz
> I did some research on custom duties in the EU & i found out:-
> The Custom duties on Trucks is 42% just to keep out Cheaper Chinese and Indian Trucks.
> 
> Under EU anti dumping Laws, the tarrifs on Chinese Solar Panels is between 17% and 42%. So much for the EU promoting Renewable Energy.
> 
> I found the " British will starve " statement to be nonsense.
> The average tarrif on Agricultural Products is 18%. Most of the tarrifs exceeding 100% are on Agricultural Products.
> Isoglucose has a tarrif of 604%.
> 
> Through the Common Agricultural Policy, the British have to subsidise inefficient French Farmers.
> 
> Then via external tarrifs, their ability to buy from American, Indian, African and Chinese farmers diminishes.
> 
> If anything, the EU is starving Britain.



You have cut to the heart of the matter. While the proximal cause of Brexit was the issue of immigration, or the British financial contribution to the EU, or the democratic deficit of Brussels-imposed laws, the overarching theme has always been that the British outlook and the Continental outlook are fundamentally different.

Britain is a commercial nation (the very reason it became a sea-faring empire to begin with), and has been instrumental in implementing the free trade order we have today. Britain is governed by common law, and contrary to the ideology of the Continent, believes that whatever is not expressly forbidden is allowed. Britain has a much more laissez-faire attitude towards the size and role of government (i.e. small, hands-off), in contrast to the Continent's vision of a domineering government. The British have a long history of democracy based on individual rights, whereas the Continent's version is driven by collective rights. Etc cetera.

In short, the EU is made by the Continent for the Continent. The idea of a closed economy, hostile to competition, is well-suited to the Continental mindset, and alien to the British. The idea of a powerful superstate overseeing every aspect of trade, and increasingly, of life, is well-suited to the Continental mindset, and alien to the British. The idea of a distant, un-elected bureaucracy imposing rules on the citizenry is well-suited to the Continental mindset, and alien to the British.

And on and on. But try putting that on an election banner. It's much easier to distill down to "Immigration!" and "£13 billion contribution to the EU!" but the underlying differences remain. That's why Britain has always been an uneasy member of the EU, and why Britain in turn has never had any real influence in the EU. The stark truth is that the slogan of "Better Together" has always been a lie, and Britain and the EU can only realize true friendship by going their separate ways. Now the EU can become as totalitarian and protectionist as it wishes, and Britain can restore democracy and negotiate free trade deals with the world. 

Is that not the definition of win-win?

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## Louiq XIV

mike2000 is back said:


> Hahaha......good one. Keep expanding, gives us even more reason to urge those pussy european countries to increase their commitment towards NATO.



When the UK vote to exit the EU you call it democracy but you call it "expansion" when the people of Crimea vote to join Russia ? That is quite funny to me.

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## Deliorman

Louiq XIV said:


> When the UK vote to exit the EU you call it democracy but you call it "expansion" when the people of Crimea vote to join Russia ? That is quite funny to me.




How did you found similarities between the Brexit vote and the referendum in Crimea, King Louis? Two referendums that have completely different goals... 
How did you find similarities between a vote in one of the most democratic countries in the world- a country with a democratic traditions dating of centuries back in history and a vote in a occupied peninsula part of a country in a civil war started mostly with the help of one bigger country on her eastern borders- a vote that was everything else but democratic with a bunch of "polite green man" guarding the sections and forcing people to vote/not to vote? Where is the similarity in that in the first place?


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## Louiq XIV

Deliorman said:


> How did you found similarities between the Brexit vote and the referendum in Crimea, King Louis? Two referendums that have completely different goals...
> How did you find similarities between a vote in one of the most democratic countries in the world- a country with a democratic traditions dating of centuries back in history and a vote in a occupied peninsula part of a country in a civil war started mostly with the help of one bigger country on her eastern borders- a vote that was everything else but democratic with a bunch of "polite green man" guarding the sections and forcing people to vote/not to vote? Where is the similarity in that in the first place?



Maybe because :

i/ the referendum was legal
ii/ the result was very very clear
iii/ observers where there

(a few minutes on Google will prove you that)

There is no good countries and bad countries for democracy its result has to be accepted in Crimea as it has to be accepted in the UK. No double standard otherwise credibility is lost.

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## Darmashkian

LeveragedBuyout said:


> You have cut to the heart of the matter. While the proximal cause of Brexit was the issue of immigration, or the British financial contribution to the EU, or the democratic deficit of Brussels-imposed laws, the overarching theme has always been that the British outlook and the Continental outlook are fundamentally different.
> 
> Britain is a commercial nation (the very reason it became a sea-faring empire to begin with), and has been instrumental in implementing the free trade order we have today. Britain is governed by common law, and contrary to the ideology of the Continent, believes that whatever is not expressly forbidden is allowed. Britain has a much more laissez-faire attitude towards the size and role of government (i.e. small, hands-off), in contrast to the Continent's vision of a domineering government. The British have a long history of democracy based on individual rights, whereas the Continent's version is driven by collective rights. Etc cetera.
> 
> In short, the EU is made by the Continent for the Continent. The idea of a closed economy, hostile to competition, is well-suited to the Continental mindset, and alien to the British. The idea of a powerful superstate overseeing every aspect of trade, and increasingly, of life, is well-suited to the Continental mindset, and alien to the British. The idea of a distant, un-elected bureaucracy imposing rules on the citizenry is well-suited to the Continental mindset, and alien to the British.
> 
> And on and on. But try putting that on an election banner. It's much easier to distill down to "Immigration!" and "£13 billion contribution to the EU!" but the underlying differences remain. That's why Britain has always been an uneasy member of the EU, and why Britain in turn has never had any real influence in the EU. The stark truth is that the slogan of "Better Together" has always been a lie, and Britain and the EU can only realize true friendship by going their separate ways. Now the EU can become as totalitarian and protectionist as it wishes, and Britain can restore democracy and negotiate free trade deals with the world.
> 
> Is that not the definition of win-win?


Yes, it is. The British people & especially the English are not fond of the idea of a Big Brother or a super socialist state with multiple regulations & rules. 

They did the right thing leaving before their mentality changed over. Many of the young ones in the UK seem to have changed to the "European" way of thinking at first sight

I believe now that UK did the right thing leaving, if its government can get it's act together & can get the Scots to remain, it can still remain economically strong.

But @LeveragedBuyout sir, frankly speaking mentalities can change over time. 
Adam Smith- who was a firm free marketer & the father of modern free trade was from Scotland, the same Scotland which voted to remain in the EU today & which lies between left & centre left when it comes to ideology & nature today

India should send Kanhaiya Kumar to London immediately @JanjaWeed 
http://www.ibtimes.co.in/120000-sign-petition-declare-london-independent-uk-join-eu-684342

For all those who hate the EU's bureaucracy:-@mike2020 is back @waz @Steve781 
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/679277/History-EU-how-bureaucrats-seized-power

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## A.P. Richelieu

Louiq XIV said:


> When the UK vote to exit the EU you call it democracy but you call it "expansion" when the people of Crimea vote to join Russia ? That is quite funny to me.


When another country invades, and arranges an election with a few days notice,
then it is not a democratic process.

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## Louiq XIV

A.P. Richelieu said:


> When another country invades, and arranges an election with a few days notice,
> then it is not a democratic process.



Bonds between Crimea and Russia are very old and strong as history should learn you.

That is not an "overnight" reaction.

But let's not pollute this brexit thread.

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## Kabira

It's baffling watching some British Asians support Breixit because they don't want eastern euros. We all know sole reason for this was to prevent eastern europeans migrating to UK "legally". Asians were in same situation some decades back. And in couple of decades eastern euros will be more more integrated in UK then asians ever will be.

It's like when one see sikhs supporting likes of BNP because they hate muslims.


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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> Don't be so heart broken bruv. Thing is we will still cary on cooperating and trading with italy and Europe. So things aren't that bad. For example we brought in Germany and Italy into our Tyhoon fighter jet project making it a successfull pan-European project. This shows when european powers are really committed and have the will, they can achieve alot(Do you mean you will pull out from such projects since we are not part of E.U? )
> Anyway, However, im afraid to say the E.U lacks this will and urge to reform/reinvent itself today. They are too complacent and that is a very dangerous thing when a union cant adapt to change. We tried several times to reform the E.U from inside but failed, as many countries seem to take a backseat on several issues, so we grew frustrated and now you see the results. I mentioned this in a thread here not long ago.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/britain-...ants-quota-system-in-u-k.419256/#post-8108281
> 
> This is just one of many examples though. But it helped tipped the balance in leave's favour.
> 
> Europe needs urgent reforms and make sure it listens carefully to its people concerns instead of brushing them aside for political correctness, complacency and political reasons etc




Sorry but i dont see it that way. Its a great damage for europe and not just EU. Economies are hit hard from it and many people will suffer. People who have nothing to do with it. 
Italy now rise into the club of 3...Germany, France and Italy will now carry the burden. I hope my country is ready for that-


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## Stephen Cohen

@waz

The MOODY's has rated UK credit rating as NEGATIVE 

Earlier it was stable 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36626201


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## waz

Stephen Cohen said:


> @waz
> 
> The MOODY's has rated UK credit rating as NEGATIVE
> 
> Earlier it was stable
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36626201



It will change for the better.


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## MarkusS

waz said:


> It will change for the better.




It wont. As most banks will leave. Airbus already said it will rethink its investments. 

You know what our finance minister said today? That italy will bring back its gold reserves that are stored partly in London because security risks there.

The trust in the Uk simply is gone. Who tells us after this that the UK wont steal it? 

He is right with that. The UK says they dont want be with us. We trust them some of our gold. On one side the Uk says we aren´t good enough to be partners and on other side take gold?

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## waz

MarkusS said:


> It wont. As most banks will leave. Airbus already said it will rethink its investments.
> 
> You know what our finance minister said today? That italy will bring back its gold reserves that are stored partly in London because security risks there.
> 
> The trust in the Uk simply is gone. Who tells us after this that the UK wont steal it?
> 
> He is right with that. The UK says they dont want be with us. We trust them some of our gold. On one side the Uk says we aren´t good enough to be partners and on other side take gold?



Yes it will, banks won't leave as they full well know from the past the EU is no friend to them. If Airbus rethinks it's investments, others will take their place. We have one of the most skilled workforces in the world, world class infrastructure, favourable tax rates for businesses, all in all excellent external economies of scale.
Italy is more than welcome to take its gold. As for the UK stealing it, we won't and abide by our commitments, both in law and by word.


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## Stephen Cohen

waz said:


> It will change for the better.



I request you to read the entire news that I have posted 

It shows that there is going to be a LOT of turmoil ahead 

Immigration concerns can be handled differently 

The economic Transition will be very difficult 

And what about SCOTLAND 

They want independence again


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## waz

Stephen Cohen said:


> I request you to read the entire news that I have posted
> 
> It shows that there is going to be a LOT of turmoil ahead
> 
> Immigration concerns can be handled differently
> 
> The economic Transition will be very difficult
> 
> And what about SCOTLAND
> 
> They want independence again



It's predictions, for a start people have already said the impact isn't as bad as they predicted. 
The Scotland issue has been talked about in detail several times on this thread.


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## Stephen Cohen

waz said:


> It will change for the better.



I request you to read the entire news that I have posted

It shows that there is going to be a LOT of turmoil ahead

Immigration concerns can be handled differently

The economic Transition will be very difficult 

And what about SCOTLAND

They want independence again


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## MarkusS

waz said:


> Yes it will, banks won't leave as they full well know from the past the EU is no friend to them. If Airbus rethinks it's investments, others will take their place. We have one of the most skilled workforces in the world, world class infrastructure, favourable tax rates for businesses, all in all excellent external economies of scale.
> Italy is more than welcome to take its gold. As for the UK stealing it, we won't and abide by our commitments, both in law and by word.



You dont follow your commitments. You broke with Europe and weaken it.

Do you know who you strengthen? Russia laughs and says europe breaks apart. That way russia can dominate more.

Even ISIS made a statement that europe shows its weakness and they want intensify their attacks to paralyse us.

What UK did is plain and simple evil and betrayal for all europeans. You weaken the entire continent and make us victims of russia and islamic terrorism. sorry but that is not forgiveable.


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## waz

MarkusS said:


> You dont follow your commitments. You broke with Europe and weaken it.
> 
> Do you know who you strengthen? Russia laughs and says europe breaks apart. That way russia can dominate more.
> 
> Even ISIS made a statement that europe shows its weakness and they want intensify their attacks to paralyse us.
> 
> What UK did is plain and simple evil and betrayal for all europeans. You weaken the entire continent and make us victims of russia and islamic terrorism. sorry but that is not forgiveable.



We do honour them, the EU didn't, so we broke away. It wasn't us who wanted this. We asked for reform, the EU refused. As for Russia, there is NATO.
ISIS is being slaughtered by our special forces, drones and RAF. These attacks are relentless and won't stop.
If democracy is evil and a betrayal, then the Europeans who believe they were betrayed by the UK should go on to be ruled by a dictatorship.


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## vostok

Let's conquer Europe tomorrow, comrades! Release the tanks! 
That was sarcasm, do not jump out of the windows!

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## MarkusS

waz said:


> We do honour them, the EU didn't, so we broke away. It wasn't us who wanted this. We asked for reform, the EU refused. As for Russia, there is NATO.
> ISIS is being slaughtered by our special forces, drones and RAF. These attacks are relentless and won't stop.
> If democracy is evil and a betrayal, then the Europeans who believe they were betrayed by the UK should go on to be ruled by a dictatorship.




No it is not that way. In losing the UK Europe shows weakness and it can be beginning of much worse. I think its not too late. We can see this as warning shot and change things i´m sure and show that we can work out problems.


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## UKBengali

Louiq XIV said:


> Complete BS. France is a net contributor to the EU budget so technically France pays for its farmers and more.
> 
> And farming is subsidised everywhere in the EU it's not specific to France at all. They are by no mean more inefficient than say British farmers.



What he means is that the UK is forced to buy food from France at higher prices when it could get the same products 
cheaper elsewhere.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Louiq XIV said:


> Bonds between Crimea and Russia are very old and strong as history should learn you.
> 
> That is not an "overnight" reaction.
> 
> But let's not pollute this brexit thread.



Yes, it is not the first time Russia has occupied Crimea.
If You do not want a polluted thread, I suggest You delete Your posts, and I will delete mine.


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## Vergennes

vostok said:


> *Let's conquer Europe tomorrow, comrades*! Release the tanks!
> That was sarcasm, do not jump out of the windows!



If you want to invade us,why don't you go through the migration board like everybody else ? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
-
Just some humor,don't take it seriously !





@flamer84

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## Louiq XIV

UKBengali said:


> What he means is that the UK is forced to buy food from France at higher prices when it could get the same products
> cheaper elsewhere.



BS once again. Products are sold on markets (international or local depending on the product) and the market sets the prices. That is exactly why European farmers are subsidized because they cannot make a living with those prices.

And neither France nor the EU forbide the Brits to buy what they want where they want.

You are full of hate against the French as usual.

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## UKBengali

Louiq XIV said:


> BS once again. Products are sold on markets (international or local depending on the product) and the market sets the prices. That is exactly why European farmers are subsidized because they cannot make a living with those prices.
> 
> And neither France nor the EU forbide the Brits to buy what they want where they want.
> 
> You are full of hate against the French as usual.



Heard of tariffs to make non-EU products more expensive?

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## Louiq XIV

UKBengali said:


> Heard of tariffs to make non-EU products more expensive?


Yes and as you'll be free now I propose you set all you tariff on food importation to 0.

That's a brilliant idea, I'm pretty sure your farmers will appreciate a lot.

Well, at least the first 4 to 5 years because after they won't be much to survive.

But, indeed you may theoretically be able to save a few pounds on you're food.


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## Darmashkian

Stephen Cohen said:


> I request you to read the entire news that I have posted
> 
> It shows that there is going to be a LOT of turmoil ahead
> 
> Immigration concerns can be handled differently
> 
> The economic Transition will be very difficult
> 
> And what about SCOTLAND
> 
> They want independence again


Regarding the Scots.
1)Spain-Catalonia & Belgium-Flanders won't allow them int

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746695834759270400
2)THeir currency? UK won't give them the GBP & the Euro isn't really a great option now & too big a risk.Add to that I doubt scotland fulfills the pre-requisites

3)It's source of income? Oil prices-Scotland;s primary source of income are going down. Add to that its deficit is 10% of GDP. The Scots may be leftists but they can't ignore basic economics for long

4)
"The 1.6 million votes cast in this referendum in favour of remain, do not wipe away the two million votes that we cast less than two years ago," she said.- Ruth Davidson

1.6 million voted to remain in EU in Scotland, 2 years ago about 2 million voted No to Azadi

5)Yes,Economic transition will be tough.Can go totally wrong if the Tories don't untie and form a stable govt.

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## UKBengali

Louiq XIV said:


> Yes and as you'll be free now I propose you set all you tariff on food importation to 0.
> 
> That's a brilliant idea, I'm pretty sure your farmers will appreciate a lot.
> 
> Well, at least the first 4 to 5 years because after they won't be much to survive.
> 
> But, indeed you may theoretically be able to save a few pounds on you're food.




Please don't try to troll.

Tariffs can be lowered on food products like oranges that the UK does not produce anyway.

I have not studied in detail how many products the UK could set tariffs down to zero, which won't be in competition
with UK farmers, but fruit and veg that require a Mediterranean climate can all be included.

Don't take this personally as it is just business.

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## waz

Vergennes said:


> If you want to invade us,why don't you go through the migration board like everybody else ? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
> -
> Just some humor,don't take it seriously !
> 
> View attachment 313586​
> @flamer84



That represents a small section of our society who are increasingly being forced into the world of work. Our welfare reforms will take care of this problem once and for all.


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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> You dont follow your commitments. You broke with Europe and weaken it.
> 
> Do you know who you strengthen? Russia laughs and says europe breaks apart. That way russia can dominate more.
> 
> Even ISIS made a statement that europe shows its weakness and they want intensify their attacks to paralyse us.
> 
> What UK did is plain and simple evil and betrayal for all europeans. You weaken the entire continent and make us victims of russia and islamic terrorism. sorry but that is not forgiveable.


Huh.....but I thought you said before that you were best buddies with Russia??


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## MarkusS

waz said:


> That represents a small section of our society who are increasingly being forced into the world of work. Our welfare reforms will take care of this problem once and for all.




You know whats worst part? How you break all we accomplished as europeans together. 

I work in airplane business. When we do business in UK now do i need a visa and get checked? Thats insulting process for evry european.

All this can still be reversed. Think about the gigantic damage that is done here to all of europe you included.


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## Darmashkian

@UKBengali @waz @mike2000 is back 
Is this true? Its on twitter,,got it from a Tory MP's wall

The link is here
https://global.handelsblatt.com/edition/457/ressort/politics/article/schaubles-secret-brexit-plan







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746669718682075136

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746712181329231872
Merkel is being more realistic & less emotional unlike some EU bigshots

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> Huh.....but I thought you said before that you were best buddies with Russia??



Well we will be forced to be now. The EU lost much influence and renomee because of this. Putin wins and so does ISIS.

All this process binds efforts we could use to solve problems.


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## mike2000 is back

Vergennes said:


> If you want to invade us,why don't you go through the migration board like everybody else ? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
> -
> Just some humor,don't take it seriously !
> 
> View attachment 313586​
> @flamer84



Lol you are taking a tiny portion of British popopulation to make your point just so it can suit your agenda? Lol
Its cool though, I understand your feelings, anger often drives us to make emotional statements. 
Doom and gloom waa expected anyway. Too much dust now, few weeks from now when it settles down then we can all have a proper conversation.

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## UKBengali

@Darmashkian 

I would not pay much attention to this but listen to what major German corporations like BMW have
already said. It wants duty-free trade with the UK. If Germany wants to sell cars in UK then it needs to
open the EU market to the UK in return.

EU cannot dictate to a powerful economy like UK since it has a massive trade deficit with the UK.

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## Louiq XIV

UKBengali said:


> Please don't try to troll.


Says the biggest troll of this forum. Hahaha thanks for the laugh.



UKBengali said:


> Tariffs can be lowered on food products like oranges that the UK does not produce anyway.
> 
> I have not studied in detail how many products the UK could set tariffs down to zero, which won't be in competition
> with UK farmers, but fruit and veg that require a Mediterranean climate can all be included..


Seriously you're telling me that your rant is about orange & olive oil ?
For your information we produce almost no orange in France as well (and just a little bit of olive oil in "Provence").



UKBengali said:


> Don't take this personally as it is just business.


Yo mean your business is to say stupid things on the internet ?


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## MarkusS

UKBengali said:


> @Darmashkian
> 
> I would not pay much attention to this but listen to what major German corporations like BMW have
> already said. It wants duty-free trade with the UK. If Germany wants to sell cars in UK then it needs to
> open the EU market to the UK in return.
> 
> EU cannot dictate to a powerful economy like UK since it has a massive trade deficit with the UK.




The UK can also not dictate to a power like the EU simply for the reason that it would allow others do the same and then europe dies.

If you think you get all the bonus from EU and pay nothing then you are mistaken


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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> Well we will be forced to be now. The EU lost much influence and renomee because of this. Putin wins and so does ISIS.
> 
> All this process binds efforts we could use to solve problems.



Nope, wrong, you were the one claiming a month or so ago how you are good friends and partners with Russia and how Italy will betray NATO if an eastern european NATO member was attacked. Why are you trying to say something else now? Lool
You should be happy we left then, so you can cosy up with Russia like you claimed ages ago.

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> Nope, wrong, you were the one claiming a month or so ago how you are good friends and partners with Russia and how Italy will betray NATO if an eastern european NATO member was attacked. Why are you trying to say something else now? Lool
> You should be happy we left then, so you can cosy up with Russia.



I see you dont care about the future of europe


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## UKBengali

MarkusS said:


> The UK can also not dictate to a power like the EU simply for the reason that it would allow others do the same and then europe dies.
> 
> If you think you get all the bonus from EU and pay nothing then you are mistaken



They will negotiate as equals.

Duty-free trade both ways is the final goal.

UK gets access to the single market, saves 13 billion Euros a year and gains control of it's
borders again.

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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> You know whats worst part? How you break all we accomplished as europeans together.
> 
> I work in airplane business. When we do business in UK now do i need a visa and get checked? Thats insulting process for evry european.
> 
> All this can still be reversed. Think about the gigantic damage that is done here to all of europe you included.



It cant be reversed so easily, the E.U doesn't want to reform. We tried several times to push for reforms invane. The only option left was to leave so E U bureaucrats can come back to their senses and wake up from their slumber.This will be benefitial to europe as a whole, as reforms will now be a priority for the E.U.

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## waz

MarkusS said:


> You know whats worst part? How you break all we accomplished as europeans together.
> 
> I work in airplane business. When we do business in UK now do i need a visa and get checked? Thats insulting process for evry european.
> 
> All this can still be reversed. Think about the gigantic damage that is done here to all of europe you included.



Marcus please my friend. When I was a little boy I travelled all over Europe with my father, a civil engineer. Major European states will never have a visa system between each other.
We haven't broken anything, trade will go on, friendship will go on and defence will go on.

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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> I see you dont care about the future of europe



If we didnt care about the future and. Security of Europe why you think we spend by far the most on our military in Europe? Why you think we are keen on deploying our troops in the baltics and eastern Europe? Why you think we are building two super carriers? Why you think we are constructing a huge new naval base in bahrain?
Why you think we wanted the E.U to reform and. Address peoples complains? Why you think we joined the E.U in the first place despite always being cautious about such a union? Why you think we dont want a useless impotent R.U ARMY? Why you think we have been against German led uncontrolled immigration/refugees in Europe? Etc etc

These are all to protect European interests as well.

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## Louiq XIV

mike2000 is back said:


> If we didnt care about the future and. Security of Europe why you think we spend by far the most on our military in Europe? Why you think we are keen on deploying our troops in the baltics and eastern Europe? Why you think we are building two super carriers? Why you think we are constructing a huge new naval base in bahrain?


Sorry but yesterday you clearly explained to all of us that all this was to protect the UK.



mike2000 is back said:


> These are all to protect European interests as well.


Once again it's hard to believe. The UK has lost any credibility and cannot be trusted to protect European interests.

The message has been sent .... and received guys.

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## mike2000 is back

Louiq XIV said:


> When the UK vote to exit the EU you call it democracy but you call it "expansion" when the people of Crimea vote to join Russia ? That is quite funny to me.



That was done at gunpoint against the will of the government of Ukraine. 
How can you evven compare the two? why are you trolling?lol 
I can see we really hurt your feelings. Lool


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## Louiq XIV

mike2000 is back said:


> That was done at gunpoint against the will of the government of Ukraine.
> How can you evven compare the two? why are you trolling?lol
> I can see we really hurt your feelings. Lool


So someone that does not agree with you is "trolling" ? How mature and adult you are.

The fact that the Ukrainian gov didn't allow the referendum doesn't change anything. It was a democratic one and we must accept it. The people of Crimea has spoken. Deal with it.

Most people in Crimea identify themselves as Russian much more than as Ukrainian that is a fact proven by many polls (even by US poll companies) and a vote.

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## waz

Darmashkian said:


> @UKBengali @waz @mike2000 is back
> Is this true? Its on twitter,,got it from a Tory MP's wall
> 
> The link is here
> https://global.handelsblatt.com/edition/457/ressort/politics/article/schaubles-secret-brexit-plan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746669718682075136
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746712181329231872
> Merkel is being more realistic & less emotional unlike some EU bigshots



She is very forthcoming. Good on her. But she is being urged by German industry. You only need to see what German business chief Marcus Kerber said;

_“Imposing trade barriers, imposing protectionist measures between our two countries – or between the two political centres, the European Union on the one hand and the UK on the other – would be a very, very foolish thing in the 21st century. The BDI would urge politicians on both sides to come up with a trade regime that enables us to uphold and maintain the levels of trade we have”_
_
_
http://order-order.com/2016/06/22/g...lls-possibility-post-brexit-barriers-foolish/

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## mike2000 is back

Louiq XIV said:


> So someone that does not agree with you is "trolling" ? How mature and adult you are.
> 
> The fact that the Ukrainian gov didn't allow the referendum doesn't change anything. It was a democratic one and we must accept it. The people of Crimea has spoken. Deal with it.
> 
> Most people in Crimea identify themselves as Russian much more than as Ukrainian that is a fact proven by many polls (even by US poll companies) and a vote.



So using your logic, Russian tanks can rolling in say Kazakhstan which also has a significant ethnic Russian population and carry out a 'referundum' whereby Russia takes back that area under mother Russia. Isnt it? Lmao. Good logic. 
Using your logic China would have conquered and annexed many of its neighbours by now from Indonesia to Malaysia to thailand, since they have a significant chinese population there who will vote to be part of mother China as soon as Chineese tanks roll in there.

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## Louiq XIV

mike2000 is back said:


> So using your logic, Russian tanks can rolling in say Kazakhstan which also has a significant ethnic Russian population and carry out a 'referundum' whereby Russia takes back that area under mother Russia. Isnt it? Lmao. Good logic.
> Using your logic China would have conquered and annexed many of its neighbours by now from Indonesia to Malaysia to thailand, since they have a significant chinese population there who will vote to be part of mother China as soon as Chineese tanks roll in there.


It's not my logic it's called "democracy" and it's not about tanks but about votes.

You're confused ...

Sometime we westerners are accused of "double standard" and rightly so when I read you and some other here.

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## MarkusS

UKBengali said:


> They will negotiate as equals.
> 
> Duty-free trade both ways is the final goal.
> 
> UK gets access to the single market, saves 13 billion Euros a year and gains control of it's
> borders again.



and we? gain nothing. We get target for isis and russia and instability.



mike2000 is back said:


> It cant be reversed so easily, the E.U doesn't want to reform. We tried several times to push for reforms invane. The only option left was to leave so E U bureaucrats can come back to their senses and wake up from their slumber.This will be benefitial to europe as a whole, as reforms will now be a priority for the E.U.



it doesnt change the fact that we suffer now. Instability, greater terrorism threats and weaker position in the world. Our economy was barely recovering and is pushed down now. its like w family and you are angry with it and go to yoir brothers rooms and smash evrything.



waz said:


> Marcus please my friend. When I was a little boy I travelled all over Europe with my father, a civil engineer. Major European states will never have a visa system between each other.
> We haven't broken anything, trade will go on, friendship will go on and defence will go on.



thats not true. All this paralyse europe. ISIS already said they will strike now to vause havoc since EU is breaking apart. Things are already complicated and get worse now. If you do this then Europe will suffer enormous.


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## mike2000 is back

MarkusS said:


> and we? gain nothing. We get target for isis and russia and instability.
> 
> 
> 
> it doesnt change the fact that we suffer now. Instability, greater terrorism threats and weaker position in the world. Our economy was barely recovering and is pushed down now. its like w family and you are angry with it and go to yoir brothers rooms and smash evrything.
> 
> 
> 
> thats not true. All this paralyse europe. ISIS already said they will strike now to vause havoc since EU is breaking apart. Things are already complicated and get worse now. If you do this then Europe will suffer enormous.



Lol Don't fall for project fear slogan.
ISIS wreaking havoc in Europe?? Which type of havoc will they wreak that they are not already doing? Lol ISIS poses no existential threat to Europe, not even near.They can at best carry out isolated terror attacks once in a while, BUT we will keep fighting them in their home turf in Syria, Iraq and libya. Our special forces, air force and army have been doing just that these past years in the middle East and the fighting will remain/be limited to that area.

As for Russia, NATO is there to deter any designs they might have against our European partners. Reason we have been at the forefront of deploying troops and military assets ro the baltics, black sea and eastern Europe to reassure our weaker european friends/brothers of our commitment to defend them and Europe.

https://www.rt.com/uk/317996-troops-baltic-states-russia/
https://www.rt.com/news/344751-uk-tanks-eastern-europe/

So we are still together and we will continue our cooperation as usual. We will just not be part of E.U that's all. We are still in Europe and NATO, so no big deal.

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## C130

CANZUKUS to the rescue

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...k-replacement-european-union-column/86347818/


CANZUKUS GDP would be $23.9 trillion dollars
EU without UK would be $13.3 trillion dollars

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## Vergennes

C130 said:


> If such a plan went ahead, America could end up with the kind of partner it had always hoped the EU would be but which never showed up in reality.




Basically,the US wanted the European Union to become their political,economic and military lackey,which according to you failed.
Now that your special lackey and supporter of your interests in the EU is gone,what are you going to do ?
No wonder De Gaulle always opposing this country's entry into the EEC saying that they were representing the american's interests and would be the US's trojan horse...

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## graphican

By leaving EU, UK is fuc!ed. It's not a manufacturing hub and the services it depended on need wider user base than not. It has increased its problems and shunned the support at the same time. People in majority can be stupid and democratically destroy their home making everyone, including themselves suffer.

Let's see who's happy now. Russia, China and stupids in not so great Britain.

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## MarkusS

mike2000 is back said:


> Lol Don't fall for project fear slogan.
> ISIS wreaking havoc in Europe?? Which type of havoc will they wreak that they are not already doing? Lol ISIS poses no existential threat to Europe, not even near.They can at best carry out isolated terror attacks once in a while, BUT we will keep fighting them in their home turf in Syria, Iraq and libya. Our special forces, air force and army have been doing just that these past years in the middle East and the fighting will remain/be limited to that area.
> 
> As for Russia, NATO is there to deter any designs they might have against our European partners. Reason we have been at the forefront of deploying troops and military assets ro the baltics, black sea and eastern Europe to reassure our weaker european friends/brothers of our commitment to defend them and Europe.
> 
> https://www.rt.com/uk/317996-troops-baltic-states-russia/
> https://www.rt.com/news/344751-uk-tanks-eastern-europe/
> 
> So we are still together and we will continue our cooperation as usual. We will just not be part of E.U that's all. We are still in Europe and NATO, so no big deal.



No its not like that. NATO is worthless. The EU is far more important. Each memberstate has its unique talents and contributes for the greater good of europe. It is our voice in the world. I still hope common sense prevails in the UK and this idiocy doesnt start.


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## KediKesenFare3

MarkusS said:


> No its not like that. NATO is worthless. The EU is far more important.



Are you trying to troll us?

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## jaunty

waz said:


> Yes we have seen how socialist economies are doing around the world, look at Venezuela....We don't need to watch out, the Scots, bar the nationalists are the only ones asking for a referendum. We'll come to that bridge when we need to.
> You should focus on India. We don't need your "concerns".



I didn't know that I had to be a UK resident to comment on it, you seem to have quite a narrow worldview. I asked you a simple question which you shrugged off initially and within hours my prediction that SNP would ask for another referendum came true.

You are again underestimating the demand for independence in Scotland. When nearly 45% people vote for something with a 80%+ voter turnout, it is not just a few nationalists asking for it. Last time, the young population overwhelmingly voted for independence whereas the older generation wanted stability and voted to remain in the union. Guess what, that stability is out of the way now. This time they will have to decide which union is better for them -- with England or with the EU. Let's see how it unfolds in the next few months. According to a recent opinion poll, there has been a surge in support for independence.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland-poll-idUSKCN0ZB0YC

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## SMS Derfflinger

Ähm @MarkusS...are you serious with your last posts? I´m really curious what happen with the badass?


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## Darmashkian

jaunty said:


> I didn't know that I had to be a UK resident to comment on it, you seem to have quite a narrow worldview. I asked you a simple question which you shrugged off initially and within hours my prediction that SNP would ask for another referendum came true.
> 
> You are again underestimating the demand for independence in Scotland. When nearly 45% people vote for something with a 80%+ voter turnout, it is not just a few nationalists asking for it. Last time, the young population overwhelmingly voted for independence whereas the older generation wanted stability and voted to remain in the union. Guess what, that stability is out of the way now. This time they will have to decide which union is better for them -- with England or with the EU. Let's see how it unfolds in the next few months. According to a recent opinion poll, there has been a surge in support for independence.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland-poll-idUSKCN0ZB0YC


Huge Surge is there, even in London there are demands for Independence from the UK coming in  Many people are very emotional and angry right now.

But when the real debate begins & when facts come out regarding currency,income,admission to the EU & the Euro , it will narrowly lose.

& there is still no guarantee whether London will allow a referendum or not. 

1.6 million people voted Bremain,but 2 million voted No for scottish independence a few years ago.

But I think a referedum will happen

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## A.P. Richelieu

Louiq XIV said:


> So someone that does not agree with you is "trolling" ? How mature and adult you are.
> 
> The fact that the Ukrainian gov didn't allow the referendum doesn't change anything. It was a democratic one and we must accept it. The people of Crimea has spoken. Deal with it.
> 
> Most people in Crimea identify themselves as Russian much more than as Ukrainian that is a fact proven by many polls (even by US poll companies) and a vote.



It was NOT a democratic election, since it violated the constitution of Ukraine and the election result was
controlled by an occupying force.
We do not have to accept it, and evidently we are not.
Russian economy in shatters as a result.


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## jaunty

Darmashkian said:


> Huge Surge is there, even in London there are demands for Independence from the UK coming in  Many people are very emotional and angry right now.
> 
> But when the real debate begins & when facts come out regarding currency,income,admission to the EU & the Euro , it will narrowly lose.
> 
> & there is still no guarantee whether London will allow a referendum or not.
> 
> 1.6 million people voted Bremain,but 2 million voted No for scottish independence a few years ago.
> 
> But I think a referedum will happen



Those absolute numbers are meaningless because overall voter turnout was much lower this time. But yes, it won't be easy to get another referendum. First they will have to convince westminster and then get an assurance from the EU that an independent Scotland would get their membership. But I have no doubt that if the public sentiment is strong, SNP would do their best to get it done. They won't get another golden opportunity like this again. The instability in London, with a new Tory PM who would be busy negotiating with the EU for an exit means that the no campaign in Scotland would be much weaker than the last time. Basically Loha garam hai maardo hathoda!

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## Star Wars

Well, i hope this is a domino effect. If the western Europe decides to put in isolationist right wing govt. and dissolves the EU. IT essentially means one pillar of great power on this planet will be gone, making the other pillars Russia and upcoming Asian powers gain power and influence. Now if this also mean economic uncertainty in the former EU countries, more investment for us .

Great job UK. let the dominos fall one by one, The Rise of Asia is imminent.


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## Louiq XIV

A.P. Richelieu said:


> It was NOT a democratic election, since it violated the constitution of Ukraine and the election result was
> controlled by an occupying force.
> We do not have to accept it, and evidently we are not.
> Russian economy in shatters as a result.



When a part of a country wants to leave that country (to be alone or to join something else) at some point it can always be considered as "occupied" by a foreign force. What matters is if it express the desire of the people living here. It should be clear to everyone now, that people living in Crimea *wanted to join Russia.*



Star Wars said:


> Well, i hope this is a domino effect. If the western Europe decides to put in isolationist right wing govt. and dissolves the EU. IT essentially means one pillar of great power on this planet will be gone, making the other pillars Russia and upcoming Asian powers gain power and influence. Now if this also mean economic uncertainty in the former EU countries, more investment for us .
> 
> Great job UK. let the dominos fall one by one, The Rise of Asia is imminent.



In your dreams. I don't believe a second to the dominos theory. UK is out yes. But UK was never really in.

You're totally underestimating the resilience of the European project. It will take time and we still have a long road to go but we're building it step by step.

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## Darmashkian

jaunty said:


> Those absolute numbers are meaningless because overall voter turnout was much lower this time. But yes, it won't be easy to get another referendum. First they will have to convince westminster and then get an assurance from the EU that an independent Scotland would get their membership. But I have no doubt that if the public sentiment is strong, SNP would do their best to get it done. They won't get another golden opportunity like this again. The instability in London, with a new Tory PM who would be busy negotiating with the EU for an exit means that the no campaign in Scotland would be much weaker than the last time. Basically Loha garam hai maardo hathoda!


Well those absolute no.s are being used right now as the greatest argument against a referendum by pro-UK scots.
They also claim that enthu for the EU was low & thus it doesn't matter.

SNP though wants to get the process done as soon as possible.

But Brussels says get azaadi first then apply & wait while the process takes years
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-humiliated-Brussels-says-No-s-not-works.html

*Nicola Sturgeon said she wanted to 'protect Scotland's place in the EU'*
*But Brussels civil servants snubbed her, saying whole of UK must exit*
*Sturgeon called for another Scotland referendum during negotiations *
*But Brussels said if it voted to leave, it would have to re-apply for EU *

_-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frankly speaking the difference in the final vote I think will be very close when the vote happens.

I would also be interested to know what currency the Scots would adopt & whether the EU would even want them to enter in the first place.




Star Wars said:


> Well, i hope this is a domino effect. If the western Europe decides to put in isolationist right wing govt. and dissolves the EU. IT essentially means one pillar of great power on this planet will be gone, making the other pillars Russia and upcoming Asian powers gain power and influence. Now if this also mean economic uncertainty in the former EU countries, more investment for us .
> 
> Great job UK. let the dominos fall one by one, The Rise of Asia is imminent.


I wouldn't be so confident, I don't trust the Chinese.

In the Chinese worldview there can be only 1 boss--->Them & Them alone. They don't believe in any "Rise of Asia" like we Indians do & loudly proclaim. The NSG issue totally proves it

Don't fall for their present rhetoric, even before 1962 they talked of Hindi-Chini bhai bhai.

If we are to take on them & their chamcha economically & from a defence POV. We will need the other Asian countries, USA & the diplomatic support of some European nations with us.

& we don't know which side Russia will take or if it even takes part or not.


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## A.P. Richelieu

Louiq XIV said:


> When a part of a country wants to leave that country (to be alone or to join something else) at some point it can always be considered as "occupied" by a foreign force. What matters is if it express the desire of the people living here. It should be clear to everyone now, that people living in Crimea *wanted to join Russia.*



You can produce any result by a rigged election, so You have no data supporting your idea
that Crimea wanted to be part of Russia.
If You want a result to be respected, then You don't call for elections with a few days notice.
You call for election after a substantial time allowing pro's and con's to be debated.
You also need to follow the constitution of the country in question.
Occupation is a legal term, and no, Crimea was not occupied by Ukraina according to International Law.


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## Star Wars

Louiq XIV said:


> In your dreams. I don't believe a second to the dominos theory. UK is out yes. But UK was never really in.
> 
> You're totally underestimating the resilience of the European project. It will take time and we still have a long road to go but we're building it step by step.




No underestimation , if right wing govt. Get elected in other parts of europe, a recerendum will be on the cards. Unless EU decides to teach UK a lesson which will give anyone second thoughts on leaving EU.


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## Louiq XIV

A.P. Richelieu said:


> You can produce any result by a rigged election, so You have no data supporting your idea
> that Crimea wanted to be part of Russia.


Wrong ! Many polls were done years before the referendum announcing what would be the result. Do you homework and you'll find those polls. Hint for you, US companies have done some.

Regarding the referendum itself let me quote this Sergei Khrushchev (US and Russian citizen) "crimea whose land this part 1 " :

"On March 16, the Crimean referendum took place without any fighting or clashes, which Kiev and Washington were hoping to use to discredit the process.

As a result, the referendum was conducted without major problems; 83 percent of the population cast their vote and 96.7 percent of them - Russians, Ukrainians and even some Tatars - voted for secession from Ukraine and annexation to Russia. The vote was observed by 135 representatives of 23 countries and 240 observers represented the Crimean civic society and political parties.

They unanimously confirmed that there were no significant violations and that everyone could vote freely, without any pressure."

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## Star Wars

Darmashkian said:


> I wouldn't be so confident, I don't trust the Chinese.
> 
> In the Chinese worldview there can be only 1 boss--->Them & Them alone. They don't believe in any "Rise of Asia" like we Indians do & loudly proclaim.
> 
> Don't fall for their present rhetoric, even before 1962 they talked of Hindi-Chini bhai bhai.
> 
> If we are to take on them & their chamcha economically & from a defence POV. We will need the other Asian countries, USA & the diplomatic support of some European nations with us.
> 
> & we don't know which side Russia will take or if it even takes part or not.



Chinese are not the only ones growing in Asia. Chinese over estimate their power and political clout. Within a decade i predict many other south asian nations will be growing above 8 to 9 %, Chinese will be forced to treat them as equals.


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## Louiq XIV

Star Wars said:


> No underestimation , if right wing govt. Get elected in other parts of europe, a recerendum will be on the cards. Unless EU decides to teach UK a lesson which will give anyone second thoughts on leaving EU.


You'll need far-right wing gov in charge for that to happen but even if hard conservatives leaders are on the rise everywhere (see Trump in the US) I doubt this happen in a major European country. In France I can tell you that Marine Lepen is rising but she is far from having a chance to become president.


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## Kuwaiti Girl

This is what political analyst George Friedman had to say about the Brexit referendum:


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## MarkusS

KediKesenFare said:


> Are you trying to troll us?



No, your intellect is just too small to grasp it. 

The EU is the voice of europe that guarantees peace, stability and exchange. NATO is worth shit without european cooperation.

We all know that nobody will stand with each otehr if shit hits the fan.

You think italy will risk anything to save Estonia or Turkey? You think germany will go to war with russia because Ukraine?

Economy, good life and open trade is whats important and not some bullshit war machine.


----------



## livingdead

jaunty said:


> I didn't know that I had to be a UK resident to comment on it, you seem to have quite a narrow worldview. I asked you a simple question which you shrugged off initially and within hours my prediction that SNP would ask for another referendum came true.
> 
> You are again underestimating the demand for independence in Scotland. When nearly 45% people vote for something with a 80%+ voter turnout, it is not just a few nationalists asking for it. Last time, the young population overwhelmingly voted for independence whereas the older generation wanted stability and voted to remain in the union. Guess what, that stability is out of the way now. This time they will have to decide which union is better for them -- with England or with the EU. Let's see how it unfolds in the next few months. According to a recent opinion poll, there has been a surge in support for independence.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland-poll-idUSKCN0ZB0YC


SNP(both salmond and sturdgen) openly said they want a second scottish referendum if scots vote in and rest of Uk votes out. That actually happened and they are just repeated what they already said during run up to this referendum.
Whether they get it or not is another thing but it was expected because they said so.


----------



## waz

jaunty said:


> I didn't know that I had to be a UK resident to comment on it, you seem to have quite a narrow worldview. I asked you a simple question which you shrugged off initially and within hours my prediction that SNP would ask for another referendum came true.
> 
> You are again underestimating the demand for independence in Scotland. When nearly 45% people vote for something with a 80%+ voter turnout, it is not just a few nationalists asking for it. Last time, the young population overwhelmingly voted for independence whereas the older generation wanted stability and voted to remain in the union. Guess what, that stability is out of the way now. This time they will have to decide which union is better for them -- with England or with the EU. Let's see how it unfolds in the next few months. According to a recent opinion poll, there has been a surge in support for independence.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland-poll-idUSKCN0ZB0YC



You seem to be rejoicing at the though of the downfall of the UK, your numerous silly smile icons are proof enough, hence my comment on why your "concerns" are not needed. Do you label yourself as an American out of curiosity?

No one said that the SNP won't ask for a referendum, I was writing about its potential success.
Voter turnout in the EU referendum for Scotland was 67%, below that of the rest of the country. That's not an overwhelming mandate for another referendum. You do realise that 2 million Scots voted against this. Fair enough things have changed. Sky News actually ran a program on the prospect of another referendum in Scotland and went about asking Scots what the think now. Again it was similar to the last referendum, the young were enthusiastic but the older folk still said they will remain with the UK. People kept on stating that they would not vote for "double the damage".

Lol@ polls, the credibility of polls is next to nothing after they predicted that remain would win by 5%, some stated 10%.


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## mike2000 is back

A.P. Richelieu said:


> It was NOT a democratic election, since it violated the constitution of Ukraine and the election result was
> controlled by an occupying force.
> We do not have to accept it, and evidently we are not.
> Russian economy in shatters as a result.



That french guy is living in a dream land. Reminds me of our far left. 
He is comparing our referundum to a referendum carried out by a foreign power at gun point in another country's territory against that legitimate governments will.. Old boyyyyy......I have seen it all on PDF. 

I will like to see Russian tanks rolling in corsica and carry out a legitimate referendum against the French central government will obviously.
We will all have to deal with it.

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## UKBengali

hinduguy said:


> SNP(both salmond and sturdgen) openly said they want a second scottish referendum if scots vote in and rest of Uk votes out. That actually happened and they are just repeated what they already said during run up to this referendum.
> Whether they get it or not is another thing but it was expected because they said so.



Don't forget that with the fall in oil prices that Nicola Sturgeon knows that the Scottish cannot afford to go independent anymore. She just said what she had to say.

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## livingdead

UKBengali said:


> Don't forget that with the fall in oil prices that Nicola Sturgeon knows that the Scottish cannot afford to go independent anymore. She just said what she had to say.


I disagree.. every SNP leader sincerely wants independent Scotland, no matter what price they will have to pay.. I dont doubt her intention at all... she will try to push if she finds a hint of chance(of her winning)


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## UKBengali

hinduguy said:


> I disagree.. every SNP leader sincerely wants independent Scotland, no matter what price they will have to pay.. I dont doubt her intention at all... she will try to push if she finds a hint of chance(of her winning)





Scots have already voted in 2014 to say that they are not interested in independence any cost.

By leaving the UK, Scottish living standards will go down to the level of Spain.

There will be cuts across the board like no more free university education, health, pensions you name it.


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## mike2000 is back

graphican said:


> By leaving EU, UK is fuc!ed. It's not a manufacturing hub and the services it depended on need wider user base than not. It has increased its problems and shunned the support at the same time. People in majority can be stupid and democratically destroy their home making everyone, including themselves suffer.
> 
> Let's see who's happy now. Russia, China and stupids in not so great Britain.



Lool You have no idea about what you are talking about. Our skills, tech, influence, military power etc has never been dependent/because of the E.U, its because of our own strengths/skills/knowledge. 
We have been a world power way before we reluctantly joined the E.U in the mid 70s, we will keep being one even if we are out of the E.U

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## UKBengali

mike2000 is back said:


> Lool You have no idea about what you are talking about. Our skills, tech, influence, military power etc has never been dependent/because of the E.UU, its because of our own strengths./knowledge. We have been a world power way before we joined the E.U in the 70s, we will keep being one even if we are out if the E.U



These out-busts prove how much the EU will lose by the UK leaving.

They had many chances to reform the EU but never took them.

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## livingdead

UKBengali said:


> Scots have already voted in 2014 to say that they are not interested in independence any cost.
> 
> By leaving the UK, Scottish living standards will go down to the level of Spain.
> 
> There will be cuts across the board like no more free university education, health, pensions you name it.


what scots will vote is different thing.. I doubt most of them share the enthusiasm of SNP.. but a lot depends on how campaign is run.. in worst case scots will vote 'out' just out of spite towards English than love for french.(or EU)


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## Star Wars

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...tens-to-block-brexit-in-face-of-english-fur/#



This is turning into a messy affair.

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## livingdead

why agree to have referendum then if you don't respect the verdict?


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## waz

UKBengali said:


> Don't forget that with the fall in oil prices that Nicola Sturgeon knows that the Scottish cannot afford to go independent anymore. She just said what she had to say.



*
Scotland is now almost £15 billion in the red and its deficit is almost twice as large as the UK as a whole*, according to newly-published official figures, which also dealt a severe blow to one of the key arguments advanced by the SNP in favour of independence.

The figures, which highlight the effect of falling North Sea oil revenues on Scotland’s finances, show that *Scotland’s deficit reached £14.9bn in 2014/15, up from £13.4bn in the previous financial year. The figure amounts to 9.7 per cent of Scottish GDP, compared with the overall UK deficit of 4.9 per cent of GDP.*


*Scotland raised around £10,000 in tax per person – a figure described as “slightly below” the UK average – and spent £12,800 per person, around £1,400 more than the UK as a whole. *

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-large-as-the-uk-as-a-whole-say-a6921381.html

I haven't even factored in Scotland's share of the national debt!!!!

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## UKBengali

mike2000 is back said:


> Lool You have no idea about what you are talking about. Our skills, tech, influence, military power etc has never been dependent/because of the E.U, its because of our own strengths/skills/knowledge.
> We have been a world power way before we reluctantly joined the E.U in the mid 70s, we will keep being one even if we are out of the E.U



The UK has more cultural/soft power than the whole of the EU combined.

UK just does not need EU - it is the other way round.


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## mike2000 is back

UKBengali said:


> These out-busts prove how much the EU will lose by the UK leaving.
> 
> They had many chances to reform the EU but never took them.



As I said before, Europe has fallen into a state of complacency, this can be seen in the way they handle their defence, the migration crisis, impose laws that are not suitable for different E.U countries etc and worse still they refuse to reform at all, despite all the pressure our leaders placed on them these past decades. They have only themselves to blame for current situation.

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## Louiq XIV

mike2000 is back said:


> That french guy is living in a dream land. Reminds me of our far left.
> He is comparing our referundum to a referendum carried out by a foreign power at gun point in another country's territory against that legitimate governments will.. Old boyyyyy......I have seen it all on PDF.
> 
> I will like to see Russian tanks rolling in corsica and carry out a legitimate referendum against the French central government will obviously.
> We will all have to deal with it.


Pfff! I'm not even left . So now its an ad personam attack ? Is that the only kind of argument you have ? I think that you have a low opinion of democracy as you accept it only when you like the result.

FYI separatism in Corsica is rising (around 35% last election) and if one day they want to separate from us then yes we'll have to accept it.

EDIT: waz quote err


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## Kuwaiti Girl

Star Wars said:


> This is turning into a messy affair.


It reminds me of George Friedman's prediction:







George Friedman is an excellent political analyst.

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## waz

Louiq XIV said:


> Pfff! I'm not even left . So now its an ad personam attack ? Is that the only kind of argument you have ? I think that you have a low opinion of democracy as you accept it only when you like the result.
> 
> FYI separatism in Corsica is rising (around 35% last election) and if one day they want to separate from us then yes we'll have to accept it.



What on earth are you going on about? Was I talking to you? We were more than willing to accept the referendum result. I have no idea why you seem so bitter.


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## Star Wars

hinduguy said:


> why agree to have referendum then if you don't respect the verdict?


She prolly respects the verdict of only the scots.


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## waz

Can we please have such news posted in the official referendum thread.

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## mike2000 is back

Louiq XIV said:


> Pfff! I'm not even left . So now its an ad personam attack ? Is that the only kind of argument you have ? I think that you have a low opinion of democracy as you accept it only when you like the result.
> 
> FYI separatism in Corsica is rising (around 35% last election) and if one day they want to separate from us then yes we'll have to accept it.
> 
> EDIT: waz quote err



Nope, you don't have to wait until the large majority of corsicans rise up again to demand for another independence to carry out the referendum. Russia/Putin can help you out do it earlier.......huh......luckily for you, you are not in eastern Europe close to them so it will be hard for their military to help carry out such a legitimate referendum.

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## waz

mike2000 is back said:


> Nope, you don't have to wait until the large majority of corsicans rise up again to demand for another independence to carry out the referendum. Russia/Putin can help you out do it earlier.......huh......luckily for you, you are not in eastern Europe close to them so it will be hard for their military to help carry out such a legitimate referendum.



Lol.


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## mike2000 is back

waz said:


> Lol.


His Russian buddy mouthpiece Sputnik has been busy singing the praise of Corsica independence. Lol 

http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20160104/1032654627/corsica-independence-referendum.html

Good read.

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## Star Wars

waz said:


> Lol.



Can u merge the other thread to this ?


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## waz

mike2000 is back said:


> His Russian buddy mouthpiece Sputnik has been busy singing the praise of Corsica independence. Lol
> 
> http://m.sputniknews.com/europe/20160104/1032654627/corsica-independence-referendum.html
> 
> Good read.



Hahahah hilarious.



Star Wars said:


> Can u merge the other thread to this ?



Yes.


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## Louiq XIV

mike2000 is back said:


> Nope, you don't have to wait until the large majority of corsicans rise up again to demand for another independence to carry out the referendum. Russia/Putin can help you out do it earlier.......huh......luckily for you, you are not in eastern Europe close to them so it will be hard for their military to help carry out such a legitimate referendum.



I'm no russophobe as it seems you are. I let you go on with your schoolyard conversation alone.

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## A.P. Richelieu

Louiq XIV said:


> Pfff! I'm not even left . So now its an ad personam attack ? Is that the only kind of argument you have ? I think that you have a low opinion of democracy as you accept it only when you like the result.
> 
> FYI separatism in Corsica is rising (around 35% last election) and if one day they want to separate from us then yes we'll have to accept it.
> 
> EDIT: waz quote err


Sounds more and more like Putin False Flagger...

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## A.P. Richelieu

Louiq XIV said:


> I'm no russophobe as it seems you are. I let you go on with your schoolyard conversation alone.


The moment You would issue a Russophobe statement,
You would lose Your employment as the Mouth of Sauron, sorry Putin...

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## Gufi

Armstrong said:


> Exaggerations, fear mongering, utter confusion and a whole of things said in bad taste, were the hallmark of this referendum !


Pakistani politics at play  u must have felt right at home

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## Star Wars

*Brexit plan *

1. Briton for British 
2. Ermmm.....


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## Star Wars

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/747095792779935744
" My job is to convince you to jump of the cliff, What happens after that is not my problem "


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## mike2000 is back

Louiq XIV said:


> I'm no russophobe as it seems you are. I let you go on with your schoolyard conversation alone.



I was merely using your 'legitimate' referundum logic mate. You stil don't get it ? Lool



A.P. Richelieu said:


> The moment You would issue a Russophobe statement,
> You would lose Your employment as the Mouth of Sauron, sorry Putin...



Lool


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## jaunty

waz said:


> You seem to be rejoicing at the though of the downfall of the UK, your numerous silly smile icons are proof enough, hence my comment on why your "concerns" are not needed. Do you label yourself as an American out of curiosity?



Now you are simply lying through your teeth. numerous smileys? I wrote 4 posts addressing you and used a grand total of ONE smiley, as many as you did in your replies. So stop being silly. You seem to be pressed for no apparent reason. I am an outside observer. The whole event has been fascinating to watch but I am not deeply concerned either way. I am neither rejoicing nor regretting anything, it does not affect me. But why do you care anyway? You seem happy enough that your side won. Or do you get pissy when someone points out any potential fallout like I did? I do think that Scotland's independence is a real possibility now. It appears you don't agree with me, so good for you. Let's see how things unfold in the future. Also I am an Indian citizen with no future plans to change it.


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## Desert Fox

I read more than half the people who signed that petition aren't even British nor live in the UK. Some of them are from far flung countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Macedonia, Yemen, Morocco, etc.  i wonder why they were so against Britain leaving the E.U.?

*Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud*​
The House of Commons petitions committee is investigating allegations of fraud in connection with a petition calling for a second EU referendum.

Its inquiry is focused on the possibility that some names could be fraudulent - 77,000 signatures have already been removed. 

More than 3.2 million signatures are on the petition, but PM David Cameron has said there will be no second vote. 

The UK voted by 52% to 48% to leave the EU in Thursday's referendum.

Helen Jones, who chairs the cross-party petitions committee, said in a statement posted on Twitter that it was taking the allegations "very seriously". 

'A range of views'
"People adding fraudulent signatures to this petition should know that they undermine the cause they pretend to support," she said.

The committee will consider the petition at its meeting next week and decide whether to schedule a debate on it, Ms Jones said.

"That doesn't mean that the committee will be deciding whether or not it agrees with the petition - just whether or not it should be debated.


"Any debate would allow a range of views to be expressed."

*A number of people on Twitter have pointed out that some people appear to have signed the petition from outside the UK.*

Only British citizens or UK residents are permitted to sign the petition, including Britons based abroad. 

The House of Commons petitions committee said it will continue to monitor the petition for "suspicious activity".

The petition has more signatures than any other on the parliamentary website.

BBC political correspondent Iain Watson says the petition has attracted a lot of attention but has no chance of being enacted, because it is asking for retrospective legislation.

Our correspondent says some referendums do have thresholds but those clauses must be inserted in legislation before the vote so everyone is clear about the rules.

You cannot simply invent new hurdles if you are on the losing side, our correspondent says.

Mr Cameron said on Friday he would stand down as prime minister by October following the leave result.


@Steve781 @flamer84 @mike2000 is back @Vauban
​

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## mike2000 is back

Desert Fox said:


> I read more than half the people who signed that petition aren't even British nor live in the UK. Some of them are from far flung countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Macedonia, Yemen, Morocco, etc.  i wonder why they were so against Britain leaving the E.U.?
> 
> *Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud*​
> The House of Commons petitions committee is investigating allegations of fraud in connection with a petition calling for a second EU referendum.
> 
> Its inquiry is focused on the possibility that some names could be fraudulent - 77,000 signatures have already been removed.
> 
> More than 3.2 million signatures are on the petition, but PM David Cameron has said there will be no second vote.
> 
> The UK voted by 52% to 48% to leave the EU in Thursday's referendum.
> 
> Helen Jones, who chairs the cross-party petitions committee, said in a statement posted on Twitter that it was taking the allegations "very seriously".
> 
> 'A range of views'
> "People adding fraudulent signatures to this petition should know that they undermine the cause they pretend to support," she said.
> 
> The committee will consider the petition at its meeting next week and decide whether to schedule a debate on it, Ms Jones said.
> 
> "That doesn't mean that the committee will be deciding whether or not it agrees with the petition - just whether or not it should be debated.
> 
> 
> "Any debate would allow a range of views to be expressed."
> 
> *A number of people on Twitter have pointed out that some people appear to have signed the petition from outside the UK.*
> 
> Only British citizens or UK residents are permitted to sign the petition, including Britons based abroad.
> 
> The House of Commons petitions committee said it will continue to monitor the petition for "suspicious activity".
> 
> The petition has more signatures than any other on the parliamentary website.
> 
> BBC political correspondent Iain Watson says the petition has attracted a lot of attention but has no chance of being enacted, because it is asking for retrospective legislation.
> 
> Our correspondent says some referendums do have thresholds but those clauses must be inserted in legislation before the vote so everyone is clear about the rules.
> 
> You cannot simply invent new hurdles if you are on the losing side, our correspondent says.
> 
> Mr Cameron said on Friday he would stand down as prime minister by October following the leave result.
> 
> 
> @Steve781 @flamer84 @mike2000 is back @Vauban
> ​


Makes no difference anyway. There will be no secound referundum on brexit neither will there be one for scotland. Period. All these talks are just emotions rather than common sense.

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## Vergennes

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The moment You would issue a Russophobe statement,
> You would lose Your employment as the Mouth of Sauron, sorry Putin...



You have to live with the fact that the french do not hate russians,do not consider Russia as ennemy,are not afraid of Russia,aren't 'paranoids' about a russian invasion,nor even hate Putin. (of course he isn't perfect,but what about our leaders?)
Russia should be considered as a partner instead of an enemy. @BRICSFTW @Parul@vostok

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## vostok

Vergennes said:


> You have to live with the fact that the french do not hate russians,do not consider Russia as ennemy,are not afraid of Russia,aren't 'paranoids' about a russian invasion,nor even hate Putin. (of course he isn't perfect,but what about our leaders?)
> Russia should be considered as a partner instead of an enemy. @BRICSFTW @Parul@vostok


And France has always been synonymous of beauty, high culture, advanced technology and refinement in Russia. Our countries were allies in both world wars, and France was friendly to the people of Russia even during the Soviet era.

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## Nevsky

Vergennes said:


> You have to live with the fact that the french do not hate russians,do not consider Russia as ennemy,are not afraid of Russia,aren't 'paranoids' about a russian invasion,nor even hate Putin. (of course he isn't perfect,but what about our leaders?)
> Russia should be considered as a partner instead of an enemy. @BRICSFTW @Parul@vostok


From what I can see there are 4 countries that actually hate Russia with passion - Baltic states and Poland, probably can put Romania here as well, bcs of Moldova.
But since Ukraine crisis the relations between Russia and Europe get really bad.Imo if Sarkozy is elected president, our relations will get better, not just Russo-French but with all EU as well.Tbh I really like his way of thinking about what happened in last 2 years.

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## mike2000 is back

vostok said:


> And France has always been synonymous of beauty, high culture, advanced technology and refinement in Russia. Our countries were allies in both world wars, and France was friendly to the people of Russia even during the Soviet era.



You forgot we were your main ally during WWII as we(along with the U.S)provided you with the most aidagainst Nazi Germany, be it technologically, militarily and materially.etc The soviet Union allied with its 2 main rivals as it had no choice even though Soviet leaders had long called the " imperialist camp" Britain and the United States.

So there is no such thing as hating or russophobe or whatever, its and has always been about INTERESTS.  If our interests converge then we will be best buddies, if not then expect it to be hostile/rivalry. Geo politics has never been about how countries citizens view each other. Its about interests. Period.

For example there are western countries whose citizens view the U.S less favourably than people in China do, but are China and the U.S allies ? Lol similarly some of you may boast your love for Russia but the French government might not share your love , if not why they refused to sell the mistral to france and agreed to sanctions against Russia while also deploying fighter jets to baltic countries under NATO ? LOL
So learn to different people from government and interests. Two totally different things.



BRICSFTW said:


> From what I can see there are 4 countries that actually hate Russia with passion - Baltic states and Poland, probably can put Romania here as well, bcs of Moldova.
> But since Ukraine crisis the relations between Russia and Europe get really bad.Imo if Sarkozy is elected president, our relations will get better, not just Russo-French but with all EU as well.Tbh I really like his way of thinking about what happened in last 2 years.



Relations with the E.U were fairly good until russia intervened first in georgia then in Ukraine and it will keep trying to push further. Cant blame them thpugh, as long as its serves rheir interests who cares.....hmmmm....well apart from us since we also have interests where moscows does.


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## Solomon2



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## waz

jaunty said:


> Now you are simply lying through your teeth. numerous smileys? I wrote 4 posts addressing you and used a grand total of ONE smiley, as many as you did in your replies. So stop being silly. You seem to be pressed for no apparent reason. I am an outside observer. The whole event has been fascinating to watch but I am not deeply concerned either way. I am neither rejoicing nor regretting anything, it does not affect me. But why do you care anyway? You seem happy enough that your side won. Or do you get pissy when someone points out any potential fallout like I did? I do think that Scotland's independence is a real possibility now. It appears you don't agree with me, so good for you. Let's see how things unfold in the future. Also I am an Indian citizen with no future plans to change it.



I'm not lying through my teeth, you need to get a pair of glasses. You have put up smilies in your posts. Now tell me, if you're having a serious conversation with someone, do you pull stupid faces? You didn't just put up one smiley up, for your own reference here are your previous posts. 





jaunty said:


> @waz Nicola Sturgeon is already highlighting the fact that Scotland has voted to remain in the EU, despite an overall loss. Watch out.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746185725356343298





jaunty said:


> Just as I predicted http://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-scottish-independence-referendum-is-certain
> 
> It only took a few hours.
> 
> They will first assess the public opinion now, if there is still a positive sentiment for independence, I am 100% sure that they will call for another independence referendum within a couple of years again and I would be shocked if they don't get more than 45% votes this time. Those who voted yes last time would vote yes again but there will be a significant swing from the no side following this development. Last time a lot of Scots voted no in order to stay in the EU.



Yes I can tell from the whole tone of your posts that you are not rejoicing....But anyway I'll take your word for it from now on. I only got pissed at you when you started using icons and then got annoyed when I rightly called you out on it. 

Back on topic, the Scots may try for another or may not. 
There seems to be support for it now;

http://www.scotsman.com/news/poll-puts-support-for-scottish-independence-at-59-1-4163338

But, it is early days and emotions are running wild. But then again similar polls had the nationalists in the lead until ballot day and then they lost by a wide margin. The economic outlook in Scotland is also far, far worse now.

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## jaunty

waz said:


> I'm not lying through my teeth, you need to get a pair of glasses. You have put up smilies in your posts. Now tell me, if you're having a serious conversation with someone, do you pull stupid faces? You didn't just put up one smiley up, for your own reference here are your previous posts.



OK you caught me, I used 2, not 1. Still numerous smileys as you called it?

Also, can you confirm that you don't use smileys in serious discussions? What is it then? Hypocrisy much?



waz said:


> Thank you friend. It has been heartwarming seeing the various messages and reassurances from our closest ally the US.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes we have seen how socialist economies are doing around the world, look at Venezuela....We don't need to watch out, the Scots, bar the nationalists are the only ones asking for a referendum. We'll come to that bridge when we need to.
> You should focus on India. We don't need your "concerns".











waz said:


> Yes I can tell from the whole tone of your posts that you are not rejoicing....But anyway I'll take your word for it from now on. I only got pissed at you when you started using icons and then got annoyed when I rightly called you out on it.




Anyoe with an IQ of over 60 can tell that the smiley was used because my prediction came true within a couple of hours which even I wasn't expecting. You got it completely wrong.



waz said:


> Back on topic, the Scots may try for another or may not.
> There seems to be support for it now;
> 
> http://www.scotsman.com/news/poll-puts-support-for-scottish-independence-at-59-1-4163338
> 
> But, it is early days and emotions are running wild. But then again similar polls had the nationalists in the lead until ballot day and then they lost by a wide margin. The economic outlook in Scotland is also far, far worse now.



That is what I asked you initially (the possibility of another referendum) but you completely dismissed the idea by saying the Scots would look at Europe and run a mile. In hindsight, it wasn't such a silly question, was it?


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## waz

jaunty said:


> OK you caught me, I used 2, not 1. Still numerous smileys as you called it?
> 
> Also, can you confirm that you don't use smileys in serious discussions? What is it then? Hypocrisy much?



I admit not numerous, but more than the one you said. I don't use smilies in a serious discussion, it's detracting and makes you look daft. Did you see me using one in this thread, or replying to you?







jaunty said:


> Anyoe with an IQ of over 60 can tell that the smiley was used because my prediction came true within a couple of hours which even I wasn't expecting. You got it completely wrong.



It's not a matter of IQ, it's a matter of pecerptions and you were using them mockingly. I didn't get it wrong. If you still insist, then let's agree to disagree. 




jaunty said:


> That is what I asked you initially (the possibility of another referendum) but you completely dismissed the idea by saying the Scots would look at Europe and run a mile. In hindsight, it wasn't such a silly question, was it?



If you had asked this without all the above, we wouldn't be having this conversation now. 

By the way another poll had support for independence at 52% which is poor considering the "anger" at the moment. 

The reasons I highlighted about the Scots could run a mile are laid out well, from this piece in the NewStatesmen. 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...nce-will-be-even-harder-it-may-be-only-choice

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## maximuswarrior

British far right is in a fix at the moment. They want the best of both worlds. Exit the EU, but still enjoy the benefits of free trade etc. It doesn't work like that. You are either part of the European Union and enjoy the benefits or exit and become independent and pay your dues upfront. There are no free lunches.

Nigel Farage has been a fraud. He lied to the British people and cannot fulfil half of his promises. Economically and politically Britain will never be the same. Nigel can't even control immigration and he has already flip flopped. The entire writing is on the wall.

*Britain to be EU's 'best friend' after tariff-free trade deal*

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-farage-tarrifs-idUKKCN0ZE10T

LOL

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## LeveragedBuyout

maximuswarrior said:


> British far right is in a fix at the moment. They want the best of both worlds. Exit the EU, but still enjoy the benefits of free trade etc. It doesn't work like that. You are either part of the European Union and enjoy the benefits or exit and become independent and pay your dues upfront. There are no free lunches.
> 
> Nigel Farage has been a fraud. He lied to the British people and cannot fulfil half of his promises. Economically and politically Britain will never be the same. Nigel can't even control immigration and he has already flip flopped. The entire writing is on the wall.
> 
> *Britain to be EU's 'best friend' after tariff-free trade deal*
> 
> http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-farage-tarrifs-idUKKCN0ZE10T
> 
> LOL



EU members are in denial. The EU has not been a significant benefit to the UK:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Intra-EU_trade_in_goods_-_recent_trends





Table 1: Exports of goods to other Member State, 2002 and 2013
(EUR 1 000 million) - Source: Eurostat (TET00039)

Look at that and ponder: absolutely no growth in exports of British goods to the EU over a ten year period. Meanwhile, the UK has been soaking up other EU member states' exports:






Figure 4: Intra-EU trade in goods balance by Member State, 2013
(EUR 1 000 million)- Source: Eurostat (TET00039)

And the UK's role as consumer of last resort for the EU has grown ever larger:





Table 2: Trade in goods balance with other Member State, 2002 and 2013 
(EUR 1 000 million) - Source: Eurostat (TET00039)

The UK trades more outside the EU than it does inside the EU:





Figure 5: Intra EU exports of goods compared with Extra EU exports of goods by Member State, 2013 
(% share of total exports of goods) - Source: Eurostat(TET00038) and (TET00039)

And the UK's dependence on the EU is rapidly shrinking:





Table 6: Intra EU exports of goods compared with Extra EU exports of goods by Member State, 2002 and 2013 
(% share of total exports of goods)- Source: Eurostat (TET00038) and (TET00039)

For reference, by the way, the UK's exports to the US have grown steadily:

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4120.html

(in $bn)
2002: 40.745
2015: 57.962

The ultimate irony of this is the EU criticism of the "irrationality" of the British in voting for Brexit. No. It is the EU that is overly emotional and irrational by not rushing to conclude a trade deal with the UK that will ensure Britain remains interested in the EU. With every passing year, the EU becomes less significant to the UK, but the same is not true in the reverse. Germany has been relatively mature about the situation, despite the screaming by France and the PIIGS, so let's hope some of the famous German realpolitik emerges to do the smart thing. 

Even if the EU descends into mindless hysteria, Britain has powerful friends that would be willing to pick up the slack. 

By the way, sometimes I think outside press reads my posts:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/06/28/brexit-fix-add-uk-to-nafta.html

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## Proudpakistaniguy

Leave side dont have good representative with clear vision or proper road-map . they are also not as effective speaker as David cameron. It seem they have not done their home work before starting the campaign of leave as most of them seem clueless and confuse


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## jaunty

waz said:


> I don't use smilies in a serious discussion, it's detracting and makes you look daft. Did you see me using one in this thread, or replying to you?



Are you serious? Didn't you see the one I quoted on the post above? Or are you feigning blissful blindness? I am sure if I dig hard, there will be more. The bottom line is that you reacted emotionally (first rudely asking me to be concerned about India and then going on and on about smileys whereas you yourself used one) and assumed things that weren't there. This is my last post to you on this topic. So long!

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## yugocrosrb95

@LeveragedBuyout 

Man, do you need to embarass yourself with this kid of display of ignorance and using Fox as source which is equivalent to Daily Mail which is ridiculed by most of UK as Daily Fail.

UK had the best position in EU and now they wasted all the benefits they had no other EU member has.

Brexit is result of Leave campaign politicians outright lying to the people as they spread misinformation about EU which isn't new since UK media spread it since 1970's when they joined ECC. Leave campaign spread such FUD and misinformation in Brexit campaign which was unheard off since Nazi's in 1930's in Germany.

EU is UK largest trading partner and raise in trading with US follows monetary inflation while US is interested in trade deal with EU in which UK was the bridge as it was for many other countries.

Brexit is result of British politics and lack of responsibility of British politicians as media spread misjnformation, lies and blamed EU for problems while British politicians used that and British goverment was quiet because it was in their interest.

As we stand right now, Brexit is very likely result in disolussion of union of United Kingdom as Northern Ireland wants to stay in EU thus it may unify with rest of Ireland to make a single country while Gilbratar also wants its independence to stay in EU, otherwise they will suffer massively economically and then we have Scotland where it was backstabbed by Wales and England as Scotland only stayed in British union due to EU which is now gone, also we have London which seeks greater autonomy and possibly independence from UK. London and Scotland make a quarter of UK's GDP.

Due to UK leaving EU, their NHS will collapse since a lot of it consists of EU migrants that fill the gap which UK on its own can't fill.

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## Star Wars

As of right now, tata plant, siemens , honda and a couple of other plants are in the risk of shutting down. Hiring as stopped and projects are on hold. People who got most benefits from EU voted leave. Should probably give them the darwin awards 2016.



yugocrosrb95 said:


> @LeveragedBuyout
> 
> Man, do you need to embarass yourself with this kid of display of ignorance and using Fox as source which is equivalent to Daily Mail which is ridiculed by most of UK as Daily Fail.
> 
> UK had the best position in EU and now they wasted all the benefits they had no other EU member has.
> 
> Brexit is result of Leave campaign politicians outright lying to the people as they spread misinformation about EU which isn't new since UK media spread it since 1970's when they joined ECC. Leave campaign spread such FUD and misinformation in Brexit campaign which was unheard off since Nazi's in 1930's in Germany.
> 
> EU is UK largest trading partner and raise in trading with US follows monetary inflation while US is interested in trade deal with EU in which UK was the bridge as it was for many other countries.
> 
> Brexit is result of British politics and lack of responsibility of British politicians as media spread misjnformation, lies and blamed EU for problems while British politicians used that and British goverment was quiet because it was in their interest.
> 
> As we stand right now, Brexit is very likely result in disolussion of union of United Kingdom as Northern Ireland wants to stay in EU thus it may unify with rest of Ireland to make a single country while Gilbratar also wants its independence to stay in EU, otherwise they will suffer massively economically and then we have Scotland where it was backstabbed by Wales and England as Scotland only stayed in British union due to EU which is now gone, also we have London which seeks greater autonomy and possibly independence from UK. London and Scotland make a quarter of UK's GDP.
> 
> Due to UK leaving EU, their NHS will collapse since a lot of it consists of EU migrants that fill the gap which UK on its own can't fill.



Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Ironic that british natonalists may end up destroying the union.

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## maximuswarrior

LeveragedBuyout said:


> EU members are in denial. The EU has not been a significant benefit to the UK:
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Intra-EU_trade_in_goods_-_recent_trends
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Table 1: Exports of goods to other Member State, 2002 and 2013
> (EUR 1 000 million) - Source: Eurostat (TET00039)
> 
> Look at that and ponder: absolutely no growth in exports of British goods to the EU over a ten year period. Meanwhile, the UK has been soaking up other EU member states' exports:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Figure 4: Intra-EU trade in goods balance by Member State, 2013
> (EUR 1 000 million)- Source: Eurostat (TET00039)
> 
> And the UK's role as consumer of last resort for the EU has grown ever larger:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Table 2: Trade in goods balance with other Member State, 2002 and 2013
> (EUR 1 000 million) - Source: Eurostat (TET00039)
> 
> The UK trades more outside the EU than it does inside the EU:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Figure 5: Intra EU exports of goods compared with Extra EU exports of goods by Member State, 2013
> (% share of total exports of goods) - Source: Eurostat(TET00038) and (TET00039)
> 
> And the UK's dependence on the EU is rapidly shrinking:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Table 6: Intra EU exports of goods compared with Extra EU exports of goods by Member State, 2002 and 2013
> (% share of total exports of goods)- Source: Eurostat (TET00038) and (TET00039)
> 
> For reference, by the way, the UK's exports to the US have grown steadily:
> 
> https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4120.html
> 
> (in $bn)
> 2002: 40.745
> 2015: 57.962
> 
> The ultimate irony of this is the EU criticism of the "irrationality" of the British in voting for Brexit. No. It is the EU that is overly emotional and irrational by not rushing to conclude a trade deal with the UK that will ensure Britain remains interested in the EU. With every passing year, the EU becomes less significant to the UK, but the same is not true in the reverse. Germany has been relatively mature about the situation, despite the screaming by France and the PIIGS, so let's hope some of the famous German realpolitik emerges to do the smart thing.
> 
> Even if the EU descends into mindless hysteria, Britain has powerful friends that would be willing to pick up the slack.
> 
> By the way, sometimes I think outside press reads my posts:
> 
> http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/06/28/brexit-fix-add-uk-to-nafta.html



Like a member has already pointed out, the sources you have cited are highly biased and even inaccurate. Besides, recent economic trends are just a glimpse of the entire trade relation between Britain and the EU. There is no need for me to cite stats and figures because we all know that trade and export between Britain and the EU is largely equally balanced. Both the EU and Britain have a two way beneficial trade relation. It is not like one side has advantage over the other.

The EU doesn't seem to care about a trade deal with Britain at the moment. Britain made an irrational choice by leaving the EU which is their decision. Britain is ridiculing the EU and expecting riches in return. It doesn't work that way. The EU has already accepted Britain's decision. Britain should not moan. It needs to take solid action and swiftly exit the EU. Also, Britain should do whatever it seeks to do. Britain should by all means work closely with her "powerful" friends. Britain should not hijack nor blackmail the EU. Just invoke article 50 and do whatever needs to be done.

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## SMS Derfflinger

It is unclear who would like to lose what. Of course, the EU has a deficit, especially Germany, but in in which form? This entire statistics don`t show the whole picture. Who could sell his goods easier to other countries after the exit? As i know, UK depends heavily on his financial sector, would the able to sell this services to other countries, too? Or we, could we divert our goods to other, for whom that is easier, for whom more difficult. I don`t want to start another discussion about "who is stonger BS", no, we should view realistic on the entire situation.

To be honest, if it be to Germany...you would get already an example of german "Realpolitik" and the UK would get their free tariff. But this is the point, we are not alone in the EU (what some have members still not understood) and Mutti has to be cautious about her doing. Many countries, countries, which don`t have a deficit like Germany and the f.. in bruessel want to punish the Brits.
On the other side, in one point they are right, UK has made a choice, don`t wait until october...we all should take a little break, of course and then invoke article 50 and don`t expect the full basket like a full member. You would get probably much and something hidden, but surely not all.

Btw. @waz @mike2000 is back I`m already grateful to you, what you have did. It seems, it has bring some sanity back to our political leadership.

Sorry, only google translate

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/ceta-eu-103.html&edit-text=

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## mike2000 is back

yugocrosrb95 said:


> @LeveragedBuyout
> 
> Man, do you need to embarass yourself with this kid of display of ignorance and using Fox as source which is equivalent to Daily Mail which is ridiculed by most of UK as Daily Fail.
> 
> UK had the best position in EU and now they wasted all the benefits they had no other EU member has.
> 
> Brexit is result of Leave campaign politicians outright lying to the people as they spread misinformation about EU which isn't new since UK media spread it since 1970's when they joined ECC. Leave campaign spread such FUD and misinformation in Brexit campaign which was unheard off since Nazi's in 1930's in Germany.
> 
> EU is UK largest trading partner and raise in trading with US follows monetary inflation while US is interested in trade deal with EU in which UK was the bridge as it was for many other countries.
> 
> Brexit is result of British politics and lack of responsibility of British politicians as media spread misjnformation, lies and blamed EU for problems while British politicians used that and British goverment was quiet because it was in their interest.
> 
> As we stand right now, Brexit is very likely result in disolussion of union of United Kingdom as Northern Ireland wants to stay in EU thus it may unify with rest of Ireland to make a single country while Gilbratar also wants its independence to stay in EU, otherwise they will suffer massively economically and then we have Scotland where it was backstabbed by Wales and England as Scotland only stayed in British union due to EU which is now gone, also we have London which seeks greater autonomy and possibly independence from UK. London and Scotland make a quarter of UK's GDP.
> 
> Due to UK leaving EU, their NHS will collapse since a lot of it consists of EU migrants that fill the gap which UK on its own can't fill.



Yes we have heard that " U.K will collapse outside the E.U" too many times already. its getting boring to be honest. 
As if there was no Britain before the E.U was formed. Lol Carry on. Nothing new you said that we havent already heard before

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## Porus

SMS Derfflinger said:


> To be honest, if it be to Germany...you would get already an example of german "Realpolitik" and the UK would get their free tariff. But this is the point, we are not alone in the EU (what some have members still not understood) and Mutti has to be cautious about her doing. Many countries, countries, which don`t have a deficit like Germany and the f.. in bruessel want to punish the Brits.
> On the other side, in one point they are right, UK has made a choice, don`t wait until october...we all should take a little break, of course and then invoke article 50 and don`t expect the full basket like a full member. You would get probably much and something hidden, but surely not all.



The people in the UK have given their verdict and it should be implemented at the earliest opportunity. The same messages are coming from the other EU leaders like Hollande and Merkel. No further talks unless UK invoke § 50, which is a correct approach in my opinion. The EUSSr, zeee Germans or Hitler Merkel should not be a bogeyman of the Brexiters and British politicians in the future and last but not least if the UK remains a members of the union it will only create further problems for the EU. Therefore, an amicable divorce will be the best outcome for the UK and EU.


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## LeveragedBuyout

yugocrosrb95 said:


> @LeveragedBuyout
> 
> Man, do you need to embarass yourself with this kid of display of ignorance and using Fox as source which is equivalent to Daily Mail which is ridiculed by most of UK as Daily Fail.





maximuswarrior said:


> Like a member has already pointed out, the sources you have cited are highly biased and even inaccurate.



The vast majority of my post sourced data (sources--heard of it? data--heard of it?) from Eurostat, the official statistics office of the EU. Your reply: Biased, inaccurate, etc. It sounds like you have no confidence in your own institutions, so perhaps you should consider your own exit from the EU.

No data in your replies, no sources in your replies, no addressing the issues raised in my post, but an abundance of sarcasm and condescension. On my ignore list.

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## flamer84

Vichy France poster WW2 ,1942. not implying anything,but I chuckled

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## waz

jaunty said:


> Are you serious? Didn't you see the one I quoted on the post above? Or are you feigning blissful blindness? I am sure if I dig hard, there will be more. The bottom line is that you reacted emotionally (first rudely asking me to be concerned about India and then going on and on about smileys whereas you yourself used one) and assumed things that weren't there. This is my last post to you on this topic. So long!



Good.


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## yugocrosrb95

LeveragedBuyout said:


> The vast majority of my post sourced data (sources--heard of it? data--heard of it?) from Eurostat, the official statistics office of the EU. Your reply: Biased, inaccurate, etc. It sounds like you have no confidence in your own institutions, so perhaps you should consider your own exit from the EU.
> 
> No data in your replies, no sources in your replies, no addressing the issues raised in my post, but an abundance of sarcasm and condescension. On my ignore list.



You are detached from reality as Farage himself who yesterday throw a tantrum, a childs fit/response...

You, like Farage are simply accepting information that suits you which is confirmation bias.

It is sad and delusional.


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## Star Wars

yugocrosrb95 said:


> You are detached from reality as Farage himself who yesterday throw a tantrum, a childs fit/response...
> 
> You, like Farage are simply accepting information that suits you which is confirmation bias.
> 
> It is sad and delusional.



Not the best way to talk, considering UK has to enter negociations with them. He prolly spoke that way to craddle his blind supporters back in UK. " farrage givin it gud to da EU elites"


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## SMS Derfflinger

Who know if the EU will anything negotiate...someone is really trying to push more sh.. in the fan.

http://www.ip-watch.org/2016/06/29/...a-european-commission-president-juncker-says/

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## Star Wars

LOL...Boris does not want to be leader of conservatives. I guess he does not want to lead the mess that he created in the first place..


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## Darmashkian

Star Wars said:


> LOL...Boris does not want to be leader of conservatives. I guess he does not want to lead the mess that he created in the first place..


He wanted to be the leader,but after the person supposed to be his SIC stabbed him in the back & said that he was running to be the leader of the Tories.

Without him-Michael Gove,Boris can't possibly win which is why he dropped out.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...viction-ambition-launches-leadership-bid.html
==================================================================
@waz I think u should call yourself a Pakistani & not British when u encounter any European or visit Europe
@mike2000 is back @Steve781 @Blue Marlin 

You guys should be careful when u travel to Europe, they seem really angry with you
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...mpaign-intimidation-Brussels-post-Brexit.html

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## Vergennes

Darmashkian said:


> He wanted to be the leader,but after the person supposed to be his SIC stabbed him in the back & said that he was running to be the leader of the Tories.
> 
> Without him-Michael Gove,Boris can't possibly win which is why he dropped out.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...viction-ambition-launches-leadership-bid.html
> ==================================================================
> @waz I think u should call yourself a Pakistani & not British when u encounter any European or visit Europe
> @mike2000 is back @Steve781 @Blue Marlin
> 
> You guys should be careful when u travel to Europe, they seem really angry with you
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...mpaign-intimidation-Brussels-post-Brexit.html



We aren't going to attack/or conduct witch hunts against the brits just because they left the EU,we are a little bit civilized for that.
Their citizens are still welcome if they want to travel,live or even work in France or anywere else in Europe.

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## waz

Darmashkian said:


> He wanted to be the leader,but after the person supposed to be his SIC stabbed him in the back & said that he was running to be the leader of the Tories.
> 
> Without him-Michael Gove,Boris can't possibly win which is why he dropped out.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...viction-ambition-launches-leadership-bid.html
> ==================================================================
> @waz I think u should call yourself a Pakistani & not British when u encounter any European or visit Europe
> @mike2000 is back @Steve781 @Blue Marlin
> 
> You guys should be careful when u travel to Europe, they seem really angry with you
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...mpaign-intimidation-Brussels-post-Brexit.html



It's not that bad mate. The stuff in Brussels is just child like banter and silly behaviour. The British MEP's will just serve out their time in peace and then leave.
As for calling myself anything but British, I won't. My family history is now 63 years old here. This is the land I love and hold dear to my heart.

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## Steve781

Darmashkian said:


> He wanted to be the leader,but after the person supposed to be his SIC stabbed him in the back & said that he was running to be the leader of the Tories.
> 
> Without him-Michael Gove,Boris can't possibly win which is why he dropped out.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...viction-ambition-launches-leadership-bid.html
> ==================================================================
> @waz I think u should call yourself a Pakistani & not British when u encounter any European or visit Europe
> @mike2000 is back @Steve781 @Blue Marlin
> 
> You guys should be careful when u travel to Europe, they seem really angry with you
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...mpaign-intimidation-Brussels-post-Brexit.html


We turned our backs on the EU not Europe. It's like claiming FIFA represents football. I'm on holiday in France right now as it happens.

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## nangyale



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## Proudpakistaniguy

[video]


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## waz

nangyale said:


>



LOL!!!!!!!


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## mike2000 is back

Steve781 said:


> We turned our backs on the EU not Europe. It's like claiming FIFA represents football. I'm on holiday in France right now as it happens.



To some the E.U is Europe itself. Lol. So European countries like Norway or Switzerland that are not in the E U are not Euorpean countries or in Europe.

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## SMS Derfflinger

mike2000 is back said:


> To some the E.U is Europe itself. Lol. So European countries like Norway or Switzerland that are not in the E U are not Euorpean countries or in Europe.



Tell me, how the life is on mars, will you?


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## mike2000 is back

SMS Derfflinger said:


> Tell me, how the life on mars is, will you?


Life on Mars isnt that bad as some of us were made to believe. Despite all the fearmongering from human beings on earth, Mars is quite a good place to live in,may of us martians are getting used to ths new beautiful planet feared by many.


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