# Pakistan's National Identity, My thoughts and opinions on Pakistan's problems.



## PakistaniJunior

After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.

*Turkish Situation:*

With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.

The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.

The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.

These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.

Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.

*Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:*

Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.

Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?

We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.

All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.

*My Opinion:*

I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.



These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I

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## AgnosticIndian

other nations hating on you is good for identity. America started out as "we're not Brittain", 90% of Canadian identity is "we're not America", much of Pakistan is "we're not India". that the Turks are hating on Pakistanis and not some variety of "Indian Muslims" is already a victory, and that it has caused an increase in defensive pro-Pakistan nationalist posturing is another.

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## Lincoln

AgnosticIndian said:


> other nations hating on you is good for identity. America started out as "we're not Brittain", 90% of Canadian identity is "we're not America", much of Pakistan is "we're not India". that the Turks are hating on Pakistanis and not some variety of "Indian Muslims" is already a victory, and that it has caused an increase in defensive pro-Pakistan nationalist posturing is another.



That's true, it will help the religious realize that there is no such union or harmony based on religion anymore and that will fuel nationalist feelings. But I also agree with OP in that Pakistanis have very unreasonable expectations from anyone who's a Muslim, we can't mind our own business.

The Muslim world is, ironically, becoming more and more racist and intolerant, Pakistan is probably one of the least racist nations in the world towards any race or religion, the intolerance only derives from religious differences. The faster we move towards Nationalism, the faster we will become more tolerant and more self centered, till then we will always be more occupied with what's happening elsewhere in regards to Islam rather than the issues we face domestically.

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## Lincoln

PakistaniJunior said:


> After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.
> 
> *Turkish Situation:*
> 
> With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.
> 
> The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.
> 
> The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.
> 
> These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.
> 
> Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.
> 
> *Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:*
> 
> Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.
> 
> Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?
> 
> We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.
> 
> All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.
> 
> *My Opinion:*
> 
> I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.
> 
> 
> 
> These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I



Pak-Turk relations had a solid basis stemmed in mutual support on international issues. The culture clash is what ruined it. These may reflect in diplomatic relations if the opposition parties who are riding in and cashing on these racist sentiments come to power, unless the Turkish military has a say otherwise during their tenure (due to the Pakistan Army maintaining great military-to-military relations; I will give them that, they know diplomacy). I think to blame for this culture clash would be Erdoğan for his failed policies in regards to refugees, immigrants and illegals, and Imran Khan's on showcasing Turkish dramas.

Either way it doesn't excuse their racist tendencies, and frankly we should stop being concerned with it. Ignore it, their internal grievences due to inflation and such are probably amplifying it. We have bigger issues to deal with as a nation and Turkey is a very minor, or a non existent part of it. I'm sure the Embassy in Turkey will handle it well, they're very competent individuals (if not one of the most in Pakistan's foreign mission) and I have no doubt that the recent tweet by the Turkish police (regarding fake accounts originating from Hindustan) reflects that.

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## One_Nation

PakistaniJunior said:


> After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.
> 
> *Turkish Situation:*
> 
> With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.
> 
> The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.
> 
> The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.
> 
> These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.
> 
> Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.
> 
> *Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:*
> 
> Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.
> 
> Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?
> 
> We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.
> 
> All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.
> 
> *My Opinion:*
> 
> I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.
> 
> 
> 
> These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I


People to people relation between Pakistan and Turkey are non-existent other than our mostly illegal migrants from Pakistan there. Turkeys rarely come to Pakistan.
All that needs to be done is Pakistan to crack down on human smuggling networks and Turkeys to stop the inflow at their border and deport whoever lands there straight away. 

You juveniles should stop stressing about it so much. This problem is just a small symptom of bigger problems at home that need attention.

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## PakistaniJunior

Lincoln said:


> Pak-Turk relations had a solid basis stemmed in mutual support on international issues. The culture clash is what ruined it. These may reflect in diplomatic relations if the opposition parties who are riding in and cashing on these racist sentiments come to power, unless the Turkish military has a say otherwise during their tenure (due to the Pakistan Army maintaining great military-to-military relations; I will give them that, they know diplomacy). I think to blame for this culture clash would be Erdoğan for his failed policies in regards to refugees, immigrants and illegals, and Imran Khan's on showcasing Turkish dramas.
> 
> Either way it doesn't excuse their racist tendencies, and frankly we should stop being concerned with it. Ignore it, their internal grievences due to inflation and such are probably amplifying it. We have bigger issues to deal with as a nation and Turkey is a very minor, or a non existent part of it. I'm sure the Embassy in Turkey will handle it well, they're very competent individuals (if not one of the most in Pakistan's foreign mission) and I have no doubt that the recent tweet by the Turkish police (regarding fake accounts originating from Hindustan) reflects that.



Thank you for your response. Honestly, i'm not that bothered by it. I knew long ago that the mindsets of the Turks and Pakistanis were to clash someday. I just think this is a good time as any to do some self-reflection, for Pakistanis who may have been shocked or hurt. In a way, i think it may prove to be a blessing in disguise because i was getting tired of this.

Also, for your first paragraph. I agree with that, and that has always been my perspective with regards to Pak-Turk relations since the beginning. Unfortunately for the recent surge of awareness amongst Pakistanis, their basis of liking Turkey is heavily related to an Empire they glorified within their minds. I agree, Erdogan has f#cked up big time , but the blame for this false perceptions created amongst Pakistanis lies with Imran Khan. He should've realized that our people are too immature to absorb such media in the way he had wanted them to.

He amplified the little sparks of admiration for Turkish People and Culture people had, and blew it into something way more. This is not how you build mutually-respectful people-to-people relationships. The uneducated amongst us now get shocked with the cultural clashes, their whole reason for "liking" Turkey is shaken up, and then they act in a shameless way which humiliates the rest of us.


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## Edevelop

Pakistanis should mind their own business. Its not our concern what Turkish women wear, how an average man practice their beliefs. Their country, their right! Stay the F out please!

Also what did you expect when you go to their lands illegally?

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## Rafi

One_Nation said:


> People to people relation between Pakistan and Turkey are non-existent other than our mostly illegal migrants from Pakistan there. Turkeys rarely come to Pakistan.
> All that needs to be done is Pakistan to crack down on human smuggling networks and Turkeys to stop the inflow at their border and deport whoever lands there straight away.
> 
> You juveniles should stop stressing about it so much. This problem is just a small symptom of bigger problems at home that need attention.



BS, Pak Turk relations are fine, people need to grow the fck up, get your head out of twitter and other brain rot social media. And you will be fine.

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## One_Nation

Rafi said:


> BS, Pak Turk relations are fine, people need to grow the fck up, get your head out of twitter and other brain rot social media. And you will be fine.


Bla bla bla... write a whole line without anything meaningful in it.

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## Rafi

One_Nation said:


> Bla bla bla... write a whole line without anything meaningful in it.



Because you are stupid, this is not a big deal.


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## One_Nation

Rafi said:


> Because you are stupid, this is not a big deal.


Devoid of any IQ then wonder why you are humiliated everywhere.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

PakistaniJunior said:


> After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.
> 
> *Turkish Situation:*
> 
> With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.
> 
> The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.
> 
> The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.
> 
> These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.
> 
> Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.
> 
> *Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:*
> 
> Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not?  People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.
> 
> Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?
> 
> We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.
> 
> All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.
> 
> *My Opinion:*
> 
> I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.
> 
> 
> 
> These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I



The BIGGEST fallacy in Pakistani identity is to assume that non-Pakistani Muslims view Islam and Islamic unity/the Ummah with the same intense enthusiasm that Pakistani Muslims do. They don't. The Arabs/Palestinians, Iranians, Turks, Afghans, Somalians etc DON'T. They are all HIGHLY nationalistic whereas Pakistanis by and large are not. Pakistanis don't understand or realize this. The Turks are fast becoming a developed, high-tech advanced society with a booming economy. Also, the Turks are White. They want deeper ties and relations with Europe/the West. That is where Turks especially the younger ones see their future with. Why would they want anything to do with Pakistan and Pakistanis when we are one of the poorest countries in the world and have NO racial or cultural ties to Turkey? Pakistanis need to understand this reality.

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## Rafi

One_Nation said:


> Devoid of any IQ then wonder why you are humiliated everywhere.



"Everywhere", cover up! - your india is showing.



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> The BIGGEST fallacy in Pakistani identity is to assume that non-Pakistani Muslims view Islam and Islamic unity/the Ummah with the same intense enthusiasm that Pakistani Muslims do. They don't. The Arabs/Palestinians, Iranians, Turks, Afghans, Somalians etc DON'T. They are all HIGHLY nationalistic. Pakistanis don't understand or realize this. The Turks are fast becoming a developed, high-tech advanced society with a booming economy. Also, the Turks are White. They want deeper ties and relations with Europe/the West. That is where Turks especially the younger ones see their future with. Why would they want anything to do with Pakistan and Pakistanis when we are one of the poorest countries in the world and have NO racial or cultural ties to Turkey? Pakistanis need to understand this reality.



LoL we have friendship with Turkey that is also secular. Don't need to overstate or understate relations with Turkey, neither are the important as some perceive neither are they insignificant


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Rafi said:


> "Everywhere", cover up! - your india is showing.
> 
> 
> 
> LoL we have friendship with Turkey that is also secular. Don't need to overstate or understate relations with Turkey, neither are the important as some perceive neither are they insignificant



Fair point but why do so man Pakistanis always assume that non-Pakistani Muslim share the same enthusiasm for Islam and the Ummah when they all do not? It makes Pakistanis look retarded and undignified who are looking for acceptance and validation from non-Pakistanis.........


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## One_Nation

Rafi said:


> "Everywhere", cover up! - your india is showing.
> 
> 
> 
> LoL we have friendship with Turkey that is also secular. Don't need to overstate or understate relations with Turkey, neither are the important as some perceive neither are they insignificant


Just say india when nothing else works. My bad I shouldnt have replied to a low life in the first place.

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## Rafi

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Fair point but why do so man Pakistanis always assume that non-Pakistani Muslim share the same enthusiasm for Islam and the Ummah when they all do not? It makes Pakistanis look retarded and undignified who are looking for acceptance and validation from non-Pakistanis.........



You know me I don't, people need to take each other at fave value, just having a general nostalgic view of Muslim nations is enough. 3 of our strongest friends are secular or even atheist countries.



One_Nation said:


> Just say india when nothing else works. My bad I shouldnt have replied to a low life in the first place.



Don't talk to your father that way.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Rafi said:


> You know me I don't, people need to take each other at fave value, just having a general nostalgic view of Muslim nations is enough. 3 of our strongest friends are secular or even atheist countries.



I know you don't but most Pakistanis do. Why is that? Pakistan's closest ally is China who is theologically as far away from Islam as possible whereas afghanistan a supposedly Muslim country is an enemy nation of Pakistan.

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## Rafi

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> I know you don't but most Pakistanis do. Why is that?



We are divided like most societies and countries, the right wing is more religious and focused on Muslim countries, but we also have a growing secular middle class, who don't see the world in binary terms.

They hate india are nationalists, but are not overly religious. As we become more prosperous this class will only increase

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Rafi said:


> We are divided like most societies and countries, the right wing is more religious and focused on Muslim countries, but we also have a growing secular middle class, who don't see the world in binary terms.
> 
> They hate india are nationalists, but are not overly religious. As we become more prosperous this class will only increase



I sincerely hope so.........

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## sparten

I


PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> I sincerely hope so.........


Its inevitable

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## Indus Pakistan

PakistaniJunior said:


> After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.
> 
> *Turkish Situation:*
> 
> With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.
> 
> The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.
> 
> The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.
> 
> These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.
> 
> Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.
> 
> *Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:*
> 
> Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.
> 
> Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?
> 
> We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.
> 
> All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.
> 
> *My Opinion:*
> 
> I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.
> 
> 
> 
> These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I


My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.

What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.

Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??

Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top. 

But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.

Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero. 

Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.

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## Bleek

One amazing positive that has come out of this is that maybe Pakistanis can wake up from their delusions of the grandeur Pak-Turk relations and the supposed immense mutual love. As well as this delusion that Turkey is some Islamic utopia full of practicing Muslims. 

It's as if people cannot differentiate between national allies, and people-people relationships. 

I'm not exactly sure where these beliefs stemmed from and became so wide spread, perhaps it's the dramas on national television, or perhaps the political statements made.

But one thing is certain, there is something seriously wrong with the average Pakistani mindset, perhaps a sense of insecurity so ride off every other country, or perhaps an identity crisis.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Indus Pakistan said:


> My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.
> 
> What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.
> 
> Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??
> 
> Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.
> 
> But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.
> 
> Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.
> 
> Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.



Bro, you are a legend! 

Also, what Pakistanis need to start realising is that non-Pakistani Muslims do NOT share the same enthusiasm for Islam and Islamic Unity/Ummah that Pakistanis do. They in fact feel the exact opposite. Arabs, Iranians, Turks, afghans, Somalians etc are all HIGHLY nationalistic. It's about time Pakistanis did the same. Then and ONLY then will we move forward and will stop being pawns for foreigners.



Bleek said:


> One amazing positive that has come out of this is that maybe Pakistanis can wake up from their delusions of the grandeur Pak-Turk relations and the supposed immense mutual love. As well as this delusion that Turkey is some Islamic utopia full of practicing Muslims.
> 
> It's as if people cannot differentiate between national allies, and people-people relationships.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure where these beliefs stemmed from and became so wide spread, perhaps it's the dramas on national television, or perhaps the political statements made.
> 
> But one thing is certain, there is something seriously wrong with the average Pakistani mindset, perhaps a sense of insecurity so ride off every other country, or perhaps an identity crisis.




What is wrong is the lack of Pakistani nationalism and patriotism. It creates weak, insecure and unproductive people.

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## Indus Pakistan

Bleek said:


> there is something seriously wrong with the average Pakistani mindset


The answer lies in something very simple. In the city you live in go take a drive through Pakistani majority area and see if anything is peddled as Pakistani. You will struggle. Instead Arab, Desi, Turkish, Indian, Asian, Apna will be used. 

It's like a Pakistan is a dirty name. Our own people don't even use it. Others use it but only to heap contempt or denigrate us.



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Bro, you are a legend!
> 
> Also, what Pakistanis need to start realising is that non-Pakistani Muslims do NOT share the same enthusiasm for Islam and Islamic Unity/Ummah that Pakistanis do. They in fact feel the exact opposite. Arabs, Iranians, Turks, afghans, Somalians etc are all HIGHLY nationalistic. It's about time Pakistanis did the same. Then and ONLY then will we move forward and will stop being pawns for foreigners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is wrong is the lack of Pakistani nationalism and patriotism. It creates weak, insecure and unproductive people.


10/10. If you have followed me over the last ten years on PDF you will know I have been banging on about this year after year.

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## Bleek

Indus Pakistan said:


> My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.
> 
> What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.
> 
> Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??
> 
> Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.
> 
> But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.
> 
> Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.
> 
> Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.


In fact, there is no reason for a Pakistani to be insecure at all, of course for the reasons you have described above, but even if we consider today's terms and disregard distant history.

We have the 9th most powerful military, the only Islamic nuclear power, and have proudly defended ourselves against a much larger enemy, with a very rich and diverse culture in each region. 

There is no room for insecurity. This is more of an identity crisis for people not knowing who they are, so they ride off other countries, as well as foolish political statements and naivety.

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## 313ghazi

I think you people read far too much into non issues. A handful of people tweet something and we become besties4eva. The next day a handful of people tweet something and we become frenemies.

Chill.

There is plurality of opinion amongst countries, including our own. Opinions shift with time and alter with events. It's no big deal either way.

Ultimately relations between people are built on shared interests followed by shared values as a distant second.

If you don't present yourself as an asshole and are tolerant of what other people think even if you disagree with them - you'll be fine and so will your relations with people.

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## Indus Pakistan

Bleek said:


> In fact, there is no reason for a Pakistani to be insecure at all, of course for the reasons you have described above, but even if we consider today's terms and disregard distant history.


I went back 8,000 years but that is not to say nothing happened since. In fact every century or era saw great events on the Indus basin all the way to present. 

I delight in travel in Pakistan particulary since the spawling motorway network has made driving joy. Every corner of the country has some story, some heritage that will blow you away. On top of that the beauty of the people is beyond belief. I saw Kochi nomads south of Isakhel [home of the famous singer] and what a sight. What a sight. Grand is the only word. You find this across all of Pakistan.

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## MultaniGuy

You are asking what is Pakistani identity?

Well we are Muslims, and the citizens of the Pakistani land.

We are Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Baloch, and Kashmiris.

Thats who we are.

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## Bleek

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> What is wrong is the lack of Pakistani nationalism and patriotism. It creates weak, insecure and unproductive people.


Pakistani nationalism needs to be combined with ethnic nationalism, no matter how hard you try, there is no denying the incredibly polar society in terms of conservatism, phenotypical looks (ethnicity), and culture which exists in each region.

The solution is not to force everyone under a single identity and disregard a massive part of who they are, it's to combine them together so people can feel proud for both. Otherwise it causes people to lash out with ethno-nationalist movements (sometimes armed). 

More provincial autonomy and cultural + linguistic preservation which can be mixed together with the idea of Pakistan. 

People should be proud to call themselves a Pashtun from Pakistan, a Punjabi from Pakistan, a Sindhi from Pakistan, etc etc. 

This is the only compromise otherwise your world will come crashing down trying to force everyone under a single blanket term like Pakistani.

@jus_chillin What do you think?

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## Indus Pakistan

MultaniGuy said:


> Well we are Muslims


This is the source of the fuckin problem. So is* 1.6 billion people *and found in over 60 countries, five continents on earth. This is like saying Pakistani's are people as if rest of the world is animals and only us are people.

And where does this leave the Christian, Sikh, Hindus, Kalash etc of Pakistan. In your account a Negro Muslim in New York Bronx like Mike Tyson is a Pakistani but a the PAF ace Group Captain Cecil Chaudry is not a Pakistani.

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## Joe Shearer

PakistaniJunior said:


> Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move.

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## Indus Pakistan

Bleek said:


> Pakistani nationalism needs to be combined with ethnic nationalism, no matter how hard you try, there is no denying the incredibly polar society in terms of conservatism, phenotypical looks (ethnicity), and culture which exists in each region.
> 
> The solution is not to force everyone under a single identity and disregard a massive part of who they are, it's to combine them together so people can feel proud for both. Otherwise it causes people to lash out with ethno-nationalist movements (sometimes armed).


10/10

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## Bleek

Indus Pakistan said:


> My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.
> 
> What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.
> 
> Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??
> 
> Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.
> 
> But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.
> 
> Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.
> 
> Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.


Hmm.

How diverse are Turks phenotypically ? I've not seen many but if they originate from so many ethnicities, is that diversity visible between their people?


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## Azadkashmir

Indus Pakistan said:


> My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.
> 
> What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.
> 
> Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??
> 
> Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.
> 
> But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.
> 
> Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.
> 
> Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.







with this music. your post with this song sounds cool.

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## -blitzkrieg-

Children starting threads based on every little tad thing bothering them..talk to your parents before starting a thread.

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## lastofthepatriots

They got good food, that’s about it. You ever see someone like me mention Turkey? Nope.

Ertugal was a cancer to our society. Self respecting Pakistanis should leave Turkey and leave them Turks to their own devices.

Pakistan never had many friends, but we are still here. And with the grace of Allah swt, we’ll always be here even without any friends.

Turki’o ki jaan chor do bhai. Don’t even open threads. Ignore. Have you kids never had a girlfriend in your life before? 


The inflation in their country is horrendous and they need to take their frustrations out on someone. Not that I’m excusing any of the clowns that were filming women, but they should have been jailed and beaten up, instead of creating randi rona drama on Twitter. It is what it is.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Bleek said:


> Hmm.
> 
> How diverse are Turks phenotypically ? I've not seen many but if they originate from so many ethnicities, is that diversity visible between their people?





Turks are White people. They have more in common with East/South Europeans than with anyone else.


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## Indus Pakistan

Bleek said:


> Hmm.
> 
> How diverse are Turks phenotypically ? I've not seen many but if they originate from so many ethnicities, is that diversity visible between their people?


Essentially they are native Anatolians who often are Greek, Asyrian, Kurd, Persian, Circassian, Arab etc. Then when Anatolia was invaded by few thousand Turkic warriors led by warlords the Ottoman Empire was born. Probably no more then 3% of Turkic DNA is actually Turkic. Rest is mix of what I mentioned before. On top of that they took away slaves and women from Europe - mostly Serbsm Bulgars, Russians, Georgians, Armenian etc. The result is a polyglot meshed together under this delusion that they are all Turks when in fact most are the conquered, subjgated and raped peoples.

AS regards visible the answer is yes. Some with Serb or European heritage are blonde white. Others even have curly hair and brown skin with North African heritage. Then there is the whole spectrum inbetween.

However the Turkish state has been more succesful in cultivating 'Turkishness' then Pakistani state 'Pakistaniat' [which actually has diffused all it;s investment in global Islam] with the result that marriage across the differant spectrums has been widespread which has created more unifornity then in Pakistan

DNA-based tests shake Turks’ beliefs in their “Turkishness”​ 

Sibel Ekin
Oct 10 2019 10:39 Gmt+3
Last Updated On: Oct 11 2019 06:04 Gmt+3
Popular DNA tests are *troubling Turks* and shaking belief in their “Turkishness” as they find that, *instead of being direct descendants *of the Seljuk and Ottoman hordes who surged into Anatolia from Central Asia a millennium ago, they are instead part of the* kaleidoscope of peoples *who have lived in what is now modern Turkey and migrated there since time began.


*Identity has been a major issue in Turkey *since the republic was established in 1923 from the ashes of the *multi-ethnic, multi-cultural and multi-lingual Ottoman Empire *as the new nationalist rulers attempted to* stamp a single Turkish identity* on the country. Until 2008, denigrating Turkishness was punishable by up to two years in prison. The law has now been changed to replace the word Turkishness with “the Turkish nation”.


Issues such as what had happened to the survivors of the 1915 Armenian genocide and the presence of thousands of Greeks and Jews, but also millions of Kurdish citizens of the new republic were swept aside in often heavy-handed attempts to assimilate minorities or pressure them to leave the country altogether.


*Home DNA based testing kits are banned in Turkey*, but many Turks abroad have used them, sending a small sample to a lab and receiving a report on their ethnic roots and sometimes matches with distant relatives around the world who have also taken the test.


She said her family, from the northeastern province of Bayburt, had refused to believe that they had had Armenian, Italian and Greek links. “I told them the test was scientific, but they did not even want to listen,” she said.

*A report in the journal Annals of Human Genetics in 2012 indicated the paternal ancestry of those living in Turkey was 38 percent European, 35 percent Middle Eastern, 18 percent South Asian and only 9 percent Central Asian. But DNA tests sometimes throw up even more surprising results. *










DNA-based tests shake Turks’ beliefs in their “Turkishness” | Ahval







ahvalnews.com







PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Turks are White people. They have more in common with East/South Europeans than with anyone else.


Actually they are a bastardized people. Mix of European, Arab, Persian, Armenian etc.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

One thing is for certain, Pakistanis SERIOUSLY need to get rid of this idea of "Islamic brotherhood" and fighting for the causes of non-Pakistani Muslims. We need to learn how to love our own people and work for the interests of Pakistan and Pakistanis ONLY.


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## Raja420

One_Nation said:


> People to people relation between Pakistan and Turkey are non-existent other than our mostly illegal migrants from Pakistan there. Turkeys rarely come to Pakistan.
> All that needs to be done is Pakistan to crack down on human smuggling networks and *Turkeys to stop the inflow at their border and deport whoever lands there straight away.*
> 
> You juveniles should stop stressing about it so much. This problem is just a small symptom of bigger problems at home that need attention.


Our people go to Europe through turkey and then send remittances back home. Turkey needs to be a brotherly country and let Pakistanis go through their land into Europe.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Raja420 said:


> Our people go to Europe through turkey and then send remittances back home. Turkey needs to be a brotherly country and let Pakistanis go through their land into Europe.





Let's make Pakistan great so we don't need remittances sent home.

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## Raja420

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Let's make Pakistan great so we don't need remittances sent home.


That will be an ideal situation but we have a long ways to go.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Raja420 said:


> That will be an ideal situation but we have a long ways to go.




So let's work for it and suck up the pain along the way.

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## Raja420

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> So let's work for it and suck up the pain along the way.


InshaAllah why not.

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## Al_Muhannad

Indus Pakistan said:


> What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people.


The recent spate that you see is due to some dirty eggs in part, and some hinduvta propaganda, posing a Pakistanis on twitter. Pakistan's connection to Turks in unbreakable. No amount of kaferization will dent that relation.

While we are on the topic of Turks, I invite to find out who *THE REAL TURKS* are?


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## MultaniGuy

Indus Pakistan said:


> This is the source of the fuckin problem. So is* 1.6 billion people *and found in over 60 countries, five continents on earth. This is like saying Pakistani's are people as if rest of the world is animals and only us are people.
> 
> And where does this leave the Christian, Sikh, Hindus, Kalash etc of Pakistan. In your account a Negro Muslim in New York Bronx like Mike Tyson is a Pakistani but a the PAF ace Group Captain Cecil Chaudry is not a Pakistani.


Pakistanis are mostly Muslims. Your point is?

Yes the minorities are also Pakistanis, but Pakistani ideology is based on the majority of Pakistanis.

Instead of uttering profanities, use your head first and think rationally.

Regards.


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## Maula Jatt

B.K.N said:


> And ethnic group language group hi hotay hain. Language is the only thing which a Bhutto sindhi has in common with talpur or lashari Sindhi


But you know that's another culture clash
It's only Sindh, Punjab that this can happen and to some extent Kashmir

You live 3 generations in that land and speak the language at home you become that

But western regions are tribal you can never become a Baloch or Pashtun like that - there's a tribal tradition that I never felt the need to know but I do know that it exists and you can't join the club by living for generations or by speaking the language


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## Maula Jatt

B.K.N said:


> https://www.facebook.com/pages/cate...of-3rd-war-of-panipat-1541396729478845/posts/


I dont know but this is what I told by everyone, that custom for becoming something is different


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## Indus Pakistan

B.K.N said:


> Turkey main 2 baray ethnic group hain Turks and Kurds. Kurds ko wo turk nahi bana sakay. Pakistan na to puray mulk ko 1 language sikha di ha


Just replace 'Turk' with Punjabi and their mix is same as Pakistan. Even what goes as 'Turk' has very mixed heritage but which has been assimiliated.

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## Maula Jatt

Indus Pakistan said:


> Just replace 'Turk' with Punjabi and their mix is same as Pakistan. Even what goes as 'Turk' has very mixed heritage but which has been assimiliated.
> 
> View attachment 842246


That's crazy so basically, turkey demographics is Pakistan but way more ethno-nats and have literally named their entire country after themselves (who just like here are assimilated people into similar language, traditions) and are beating up others into becoming turks,

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## Indus Pakistan

Iran? You think they are just one ethnic group. Nope. Iran as as multi-ethnic as Turkey and Pakistan. Only the mix is differant. Note Kurds are found in Turkey and Iran. Baloch in Iran and Pakistan. Punjabi in Pakistan and India. Pakistan is NOT unique in anyway.

People cry on about Pakistan as if rest are just one ethnic group countries. Incorrect. India of course is even more multi-ethnic.






Pakistan for comparison.








Sainthood 101 said:


> That's crazy so basically, turkey demographics is Pakistan but way more ethno-nats and have literally named their entire country after themselves (who just like here are assimilated people into similar language, traditions) and are beating up others into becoming turks,


Yes. Even those who answer as 'Turk' are actually only probably 10% Turkic by blood. They are just conquered Greeks, Arabs, Persians etc who have been mashed into thinking they are Turk and adopt Turkish language.


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## Indus Pakistan

B.K.N said:


> View attachment 842251
> 
> 
> And Pakistan
> 
> View attachment 842253


That map you posted of Turkey is bullshit. The big red is incorrect. It hides multiple mixed heritages who all have been lumped 'Turk'. By the wy the Kurds converge more with Baloch/Pashto languanges then with Turkish.


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## Mirzali Khan

PakistaniJunior said:


> After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.
> 
> *Turkish Situation:*
> 
> With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.
> 
> The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.
> 
> The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.
> 
> These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.
> 
> Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.
> 
> *Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:*
> 
> Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.
> 
> Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?
> 
> We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.
> 
> All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.
> 
> *My Opinion:*
> 
> I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.
> 
> 
> 
> These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I



The truth is Pakistan itself is unnatural. We ourselves cannot answer "What is Pakistan?" without having a million different answers to that question. We tried to concoct some sort of "nationality" or "identity" by using Islam, Urdu, and Shalwar Kameez to somehow make people think all the groups in Pakistan were similar to each other and were "homogenous" before 1947. Even though the word Pakistan itself has never been historically mentioned anywhere.


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## Maula Jatt

Indus Pakistan said:


> That map you posted of Turkey is bullshit. The big red is incorrect. It hides multiple mixed heritages who all have been lumped 'Turk'. By the wy the Kurds converge more with Baloch/Pashto languanges then with Turkish.


and also Pakistan map is complete BS


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## Indus Pakistan

A good example of this mixed nature of those who go as 'Turk' is Erdogan. He is actually of Georgian heritage.
_
Erdoğan was born in Kasımpaşa, a poor neighborhood of Istanbul, to which his family had moved from Rize Province in the 1930s.[33] Erdoğan's tribe is originally from Adjara, a region in *Georgia*. His parents were Ahmet Erdoğan (1905–88) and Tenzile Erdoğan (née Mutlu; 1924–2011).__[34]_

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## Mirzali Khan

Lincoln said:


> That's true, it will help the religious realize that there is no such union or harmony based on religion anymore and that will fuel nationalist feelings. But I also agree with OP in that Pakistanis have very unreasonable expectations from anyone who's a Muslim, we can't mind our own business.
> 
> The Muslim world is, ironically, becoming more and more racist and intolerant, Pakistan is probably one of the least racist nations in the world towards any race or religion, the intolerance only derives from religious differences. The faster we move towards Nationalism, the faster we will become more tolerant and more self centered, till then we will always be more occupied with what's happening elsewhere in regards to Islam rather than the issues we face domestically.



Its also because of Pakistanis doing pendu behavior in Istanbul and recording Turkish girls on tik tok?


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## Mirzali Khan

One_Nation said:


> This problem is just a small symptom of bigger problems at home that need attention.



Also the culture and discourse that fetishizes Turkish women, I have never seen any Pakistani condemn this weird action.


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## Indus Pakistan

jus_chillin said:


> The truth is Pakistan itself is unnatural


This is the natural world.* All* countries are un-natural and man made.

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## Mirzali Khan

PakistaniJunior said:


> I agree, Erdogan has f#cked up big time , but the blame for this false perceptions created amongst Pakistanis lies with Imran Khan. He should've realized that our people are too immature to absorb such media in the way he had wanted them to.



How is that his fault? 

Is it Erdogan's fault that the actress behind Haleema did an ad for Victoria's Secret and hoardes of Pakistanis were commenting and scolding her as if they were her daughter or sister 



Edevelop said:


> Also what did you expect when you go to their lands illegally?



And record Turkish women on tik tok and marry 13 year olds and have kids with them. Like there's no condemnation from our side about this. 








Rafi said:


> BS, Pak Turk relations are fine, people need to grow the fck up, get your head out of twitter and other brain rot social media. And you will be fine.



Pakistanis have to realize that the world is a cold, cruel place. Its all about interests.



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> The BIGGEST fallacy in Pakistani identity is to assume that non-Pakistani Muslims view Islam and Islamic unity/the Ummah with the same intense enthusiasm that Pakistani Muslims do. They don't. The Arabs/Palestinians, Iranians, Turks, Afghans, Somalians etc DON'T. They are all HIGHLY nationalistic whereas Pakistanis by and large are not. Pakistanis don't understand or realize this. The Turks are fast becoming a developed, high-tech advanced society with a booming economy. Also, the Turks are White. They want deeper ties and relations with Europe/the West. That is where Turks especially the younger ones see their future with. Why would they want anything to do with Pakistan and Pakistanis when we are one of the poorest countries in the world and have NO racial or cultural ties to Turkey? Pakistanis need to understand this reality.



Because Pakistani identity itself relies on Islam and Urdu to try to push some sort of comradery among its groups that frankly had nothing to do with each other before British rule. This results in extreme radicalization.



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Fair point but why do so man Pakistanis always assume that non-Pakistani Muslim share the same enthusiasm for Islam and the Ummah when they all do not? It makes Pakistanis look retarded and undignified who are looking for acceptance and validation from non-Pakistanis.........



Its because Pakistan itself has to rely on Islam to create an "identity"


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## Maula Jatt

jus_chillin said:


> The truth is Pakistan itself is unnatural.


there's no such country like that isn't "unnatural" (in the sense you are using the word) in the world- you'll struggle to find one except for Europe (in the end they themselves are moving towards the powerful EU)
like it or not this is the best- religion, sea, shared river system and anyone not trying to turn minorities into Persians or Turks
this is the best well get


jus_chillin said:


> We ourselves cannot answer "What is Pakistan?"


This is the issue- there's no paint

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## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> We are divided like most societies and countries, the right wing is more religious and focused on Muslim countries, but we also have a growing secular middle class, who don't see the world in binary terms.
> 
> They hate india are nationalists, but are not overly religious. As we become more prosperous this class will only increase



Imran Khan was creating this kind of class btw



Indus Pakistan said:


> My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012.



Damn man, during that time I was playing Mario Kart 😂



Indus Pakistan said:


> I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration.



It became abundantly clear after Imran Khan's removal.

There's a reason why some parts of Pakistan just genuinely feel left out. Sindhi diaspora population isn't as high and represented among Pakistani diaspora in general. But, there's a reason why people from Quetta, ex-FATA, and rest of Balochistan and their respective diasporas think they aren't p[art of the conversation of mainstream Pakistan and even Pakistani diaspora at large doesn't really pay attention or know those places.



Indus Pakistan said:


> Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.



Ottoman's respected ethnic differences that's the thing. Similar to India.



Indus Pakistan said:


> But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.



It started a Kurdish insurgency that they kind of dealt with. I mean, Turkey knows how to handle their insurgencies and business.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

Indus Pakistan said:


> Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.



Well to me its the opposite. Pakistan is a chapter in all group's history, the groups aren't a chapter in Pakistan's history. 

We can go this route, but how do we convince other Pakistanis that Pakistan is not some Islamic Paradise?



Indus Pakistan said:


> Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.



Diaspora does the opposite.


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## Asimzranger




----------



## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> Imran Khan was creating this kind of class btw
> 
> 
> 
> Damn man, during that time I was playing Mario Kart 😂
> 
> 
> 
> It became abundantly clear after Imran Khan's removal.
> 
> There's a reason why some parts of Pakistan just genuinely feel left out. Sindhi diaspora population isn't as high and represented among Pakistani diaspora in general. But, there's a reason why people from Quetta, ex-FATA, and rest of Balochistan and their respective diasporas think they aren't p[art of the conversation of mainstream Pakistan and even Pakistani diaspora at large doesn't really pay attention or know those places.
> 
> 
> 
> Ottoman's respected ethnic differences that's the thing. Similar to India.



Bs, India does not respect differences in fact India does not have even a common religion or culture to hold it together, you praising India is suspect.

LoL questioning Paks legitimacy, while praising India, does not seem very Pakistani sounds very indian, carry on bud, you going through a great deal of effort for so little reward, this is the Internet after all, but if it makes you happy that you are doing something for mother India go for it.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

Bleek said:


> But one thing is certain, there is something seriously wrong with the average Pakistani mindset, perhaps a sense of insecurity so ride off every other country, or perhaps an identity crisis.



Identity crisis stems from the fact there's no singular answer to "What is Pakistan?"

Some Pakistanis think its a continuation of Mughal Empire, so they proselytize Urdu to everyone under the sun.

Some think it should be a liberal democracy

Some think its a return of the Indus Valley Civilization. 

Some think it should be an Islamic Paradise with Shariah law. 

Urdu, Shalwar Kameez, and Islam is something that has been produced from this so called "identity".


----------



## Rafi

We see the various pushes against China and now Turkey, to the people pushing this narrative, nothing will change Turkey and Pakistan will continue to be close and most of the people will get along, because these states national interests are aligned.

And Pakistani nationalism is a real player now in the politics of the country, and will continue to grow as the middle class grows.

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## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> Bs, India does not respect differences in fact India does not have even a common religion or culture to hold it together, you praising India is suspect.



Average Indian knows more than 2-3 languages. Majority of Pakistanis don't know what my cultural clothes and dance is called let alone name a single city in Balochistan. 

If looking at India and seeing something right they do is "suspect" then go on, maybe Pakistani fitrat is to hide your head in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong like flamingoes.



Rafi said:


> LoL questioning Paks legitimacy, while praising India, does not seem very Pakistani sounds very indian, carry on bud, you going through a great deal of effort for so little reward, this is the Internet after all, but if it makes you happy that you are doing something for mother India go for it.



I have no idea what you are saying. I am Pashtun lmfaoooo


----------



## Maula Jatt

Rafi said:


> We see the various pushes against China and now Turkey, to the people pushing this narrative, nothing will change Turkey and Pakistan will continue to be close and most of the people will get along, because these states national interests are aligned.
> 
> And Pakistani nationalism is a real player now in the politics of the country, and will continue to grow as the middle class grows.


we have the highest urbanization rate and biggest middle-class % wise compared to others in SA some years ago at least (except SL of course)
are we the most nationalist in all of SA? .... not too sure


----------



## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Also, what Pakistanis need to start realising is that non-Pakistani Muslims do NOT share the same enthusiasm for Islam and Islamic Unity/Ummah that Pakistanis do. They in fact feel the exact opposite. Arabs, Iranians, Turks, afghans, Somalians etc are all HIGHLY nationalistic. It's about time Pakistanis did the same. Then and ONLY then will we move forward and will stop being pawns for foreigners.



This will never happen unless Pakistanis start looking inward and be interested in other provinces cultures rather than attending AP Dhillon concerts.

Seriously, Pakistanis I have met know more East Punjabi singers than Pakistani Pashto singers. This is a problem!!!!



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> What is wrong is the lack of Pakistani nationalism and patriotism. It creates weak, insecure and unproductive people.



Define "Pakistani Nationalism" and "Pakistaniyat" you can't have lack of something people can barely define lmaooo



Indus Pakistan said:


> The answer lies in something very simple. In the city you live in go take a drive through Pakistani majority area and see if anything is peddled as Pakistani. You will struggle. Instead Arab, Desi, Turkish, Indian, Asian, Apna will be used.
> 
> It's like a Pakistan is a dirty name. Our own people don't even use it. Others use it but only to heap contempt or denigrate us.



Majority use "Indo-Pak" LOL or use "Afghan"



Bleek said:


> This is more of an identity crisis for people not knowing who they are, so they ride off other countries, as well as foolish political statements and naivety.



And not knowing who others are.



313ghazi said:


> I think you people read far too much into non issues. A handful of people tweet something and we become besties4eva. The next day a handful of people tweet something and we become frenemies.



We are emotionally unstable because of Hum TV.



Indus Pakistan said:


> I went back 8,000 years but that is not to say nothing happened since. In fact every century or era saw great events on the Indus basin all the way to present.
> 
> I delight in travel in Pakistan particulary since the spawling motorway network has made driving joy. Every corner of the country has some story, some heritage that will blow you away. On top of that the beauty of the people is beyond belief. I saw Kochi nomads south of Isakhel [home of the famous singer] and what a sight. What a sight. Grand is the only word. You find this across all of Pakistan.



💯💯💯💯💯


----------



## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> Average Indian knows more than 2-3 languages. Majority of Pakistanis don't know what my cultural clothes and dance is called let alone name a single city in Balochistan.
> 
> If looking at India and seeing something right they do is "suspect" then go on, maybe Pakistani fitrat is to hide your head in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong like flamingoes.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are saying. I am Pashtun lmfaoooo



How would you know, how are you an expert, you sound so fake it makes me laugh, in all large cities in Pakistan including Quetta are multi lingual and multi ethnic. Indians are the most racist people I have ever encountered.

I doubt you are Pashtun and even if you are, most likely afghan refugee, I have come across the likes of you before.

Most likely bitter because you never got Pak nationality, bro most Pakistani Pashtuns don't want you guys to get Pakistani nationality. 

From my experience the most bitter opponents of Afghans are Pakistani Pashtuns.

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> You are asking what is Pakistani identity?
> 
> Well we are Muslims, and the citizens of the Pakistani land.
> 
> We are Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Baloch, and Kashmiris.
> 
> Thats who we are.



You yourself say you are "pAtHaN" but then go on to say that Pashto is a useless language in another thread some time ago.

If an identity is based on Arab/Afghan larp and erasing local, native culture then why should we even look forward to an identity?

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## Maula Jatt

Rafi said:


> How would you know, how are you an expert, you sound so fake it makes me laugh, in all large cities in Pakistan including Quetta are multi lingual and multi ethnic. Indians are the most racist people I have ever encountered.
> 
> I doubt you are Pashtun and even if you are, most likely afghan refugee, I have come across the likes of you before.
> 
> Most likely bitter because you never got Pak nationality, bro most Pakistani Pashtuns don't want you guys to get Pakistani nationality.
> 
> From my experience the most bitter opponents of Afghans are Pakistani Pashtuns.


dude you are wrong lol, check his posting history

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## Rafi

Sainthood 101 said:


> we have the highest urbanization rate and biggest middle-class % wise compared to others in SA some years ago at least (except SL of course)
> are we the most nationalist in all of SA? .... not too sure



Lol believe what you want. It seems like an organised campaign from our Eastern neighbours, I'm just telling them it seems a waste of time and effort, Pakistan nation has gone through much more hard times and come out stronger.

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## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> How would you know, how are you an expert, you sound so fake it makes me laugh, in all large cities in Pakistan including Quetta are multi lingual and multi ethnic.



Sound fake? I can speak fluent Pashto and others know me from some time in this forum LOLLLL

Quetta isn't "multi-ethnic" its majority Pashtun and Baloch. There's been migration to that place recently,

Its not a lie that diaspora and people from ex-FATA, rest of Balochistan, and Quetta era do genuinely feel left out of the mainstream conversation. Even diaspora feel that way.

You still haven't answered my question, how come Pakistanis came name more East Punjabi singers than Pakistani Pashto singers? How come Pakistani diapsora have no idea about the other provinces but somehow we are all "one".

There needs to be some serious introspection, because after Imran Khan being taken out there is a rising level of discontent.



Rafi said:


> I doubt you are Pashtun and even if you are, most likely afghan refugee, I have come across the likes of you before.



Moment I disagree I with Pakistan I am now Afghan refugee 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 

Yo most Afghans promote PTM or TTP, they aren't pro Imran Khan.

Most Pakistanis don't know anything about Pashtunkhwa so its okay tho


----------



## Rafi

Sainthood 101 said:


> dude you are wrong lol, check his posting history



Long time larping, I'm just saying on an online forum where everyone's identity is hidden, this bs does not effect anyone, identity is complex everyones feeling of belonging comes from different perspectives, indian pushed narrative against Pakistani nationhood will have little to minimum effect.
But if you guys want to waste your time and money go ahead.

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## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> Most likely bitter because you never got Pak nationality, bro most Pakistani Pashtuns don't want you guys to get Pakistani nationality.
> 
> From my experience the most bitter opponents of Afghans are Pakistani Pashtuns.



Both my grandparents were born in "Pakistan" LOLLLLLL

I didn't want them to get nationality either.

You simp for Iran, so I think you are Irani.


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> This will never happen unless Pakistanis start looking inward and be interested in other provinces cultures rather than attending AP Dhillon concerts.
> 
> Seriously, Pakistanis I have met know more East Punjabi singers than Pakistani Pashto singers. This is a problem!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Define "Pakistani Nationalism" and "Pakistaniyat" you can't have lack of something people can barely define lmaooo
> 
> 
> 
> Majority use "Indo-Pak" LOL or use "Afghan"
> 
> 
> 
> And not knowing who others are.
> 
> 
> 
> We are emotionally unstable because of Hum TV.
> 
> 
> 
> 💯💯💯💯💯




The main tenant of Pakistani nationalism is that we are a safe-space for the various tribes that have lived here for many millenia*. Free to practice our unique way of life and preserve our unique, culture and heritage. Away from foreign oppression and hardship. *


----------



## Mirzali Khan

Sainthood 101 said:


> dude you are wrong lol, check his posting history



Its funny how Pakistanis know little to nothing about their own country its sad and hilarious.

Most people from Quetta and ex-FATA have this opinion, we aren't anti Pakistan. But people have some genuine concerns and criticism.

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## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> Sound fake? I can speak fluent Pashto and others know me from some time in this forum LOLLLL
> 
> Quetta isn't "multi-ethnic" its majority Pashtun and Baloch. There's been migration to that place recently,
> 
> Its not a lie that diaspora and people from ex-FATA, rest of Balochistan, and Quetta era do genuinely feel left out of the mainstream conversation. Even diaspora feel that way.
> 
> You still haven't answered my question, how come Pakistanis came name more East Punjabi singers than Pakistani Pashto singers? How come Pakistani diapsora have no idea about the other provinces but somehow we are all "one".
> 
> There needs to be some serious introspection, because after Imran Khan being taken out there is a rising level of discontent.
> 
> 
> 
> Moment I disagree I with Pakistan I am now Afghan refugee 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
> 
> Yo most Afghans promote PTM or TTP, they aren't pro Imran Khan.
> 
> Most Pakistanis don't know anything about Pashtunkhwa so its okay tho



Yep I am convinced now, the flipping of your perspective defo you are an imposter, but have at it, it will not _hurt the Pakistani people or state a jot._


----------



## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> Long time larping



If you think I am larping, wait what average person from Waziristan or Dera Bugti or even Gwadar has to say 😂 😂 😂 

You'll say they are larping. 

Is JSQM full of larps

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Indus Pakistan said:


> The answer lies in something very simple. In the city you live in go take a drive through Pakistani majority area and see if anything is peddled as Pakistani. You will struggle. Instead Arab, Desi, Turkish, Indian, Asian, Apna will be used.
> 
> It's like a Pakistan is a dirty name. Our own people don't even use it. Others use it but only to heap contempt or denigrate us.
> 
> 
> 10/10. If you have followed me over the last ten years on PDF you will know I have been banging on about this year after year.



In the Luton/St Albans area, Pakistanis freely portray their Pakistani identity and heritage. It's like the younger generation of Pakistanis have a lot of pride in their identity and heritage. All the restaurants and shops refer to themselves as Pakistani.


----------



## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> Its funny how Pakistanis know little to nothing about their own country its sad and hilarious.
> 
> Most people from Quetta and ex-FATA have this opinion, we aren't anti Pakistan. But people have some genuine concerns and criticism.



Of course they do, but they are the same as their brothers and sisters everywhere, lol Karachi is the biggest Pashtun city in the world, but like I said keep pushing the ondian narrative it does not matter a jot.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> Yep I am convinced now, the flipping of your perspective defo you are an imposter, but have at it, it will not _hurt the Pakistani people or state a jot._



"Flipping of perspective"

I am not even "anti-Pak" I just have some concerns and questions. But, unfortunately Pakistan isn't ready for intellectually rigorous conversations.

More you ignore and put your head in the sand, the more the problem is going to grow, just saying 😉

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## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> If you think I am larping, wait what average person from Waziristan or Dera Bugti or even Gwadar has to say 😂 😂 😂
> 
> You'll say they are larping.
> 
> Is JSQM full of larps



You working injun wikipedia well done. 👏


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> Sound fake? I can speak fluent Pashto and others know me from some time in this forum LOLLLL
> 
> Quetta isn't "multi-ethnic" its majority Pashtun and Baloch. There's been migration to that place recently,
> 
> Its not a lie that diaspora and people from ex-FATA, rest of Balochistan, and Quetta era do genuinely feel left out of the mainstream conversation. Even diaspora feel that way.
> 
> You still haven't answered my question, how come Pakistanis came name more East Punjabi singers than Pakistani Pashto singers? How come Pakistani diapsora have no idea about the other provinces but somehow we are all "one".
> 
> There needs to be some serious introspection, because after Imran Khan being taken out there is a rising level of discontent.
> 
> 
> 
> Moment I disagree I with Pakistan I am now Afghan refugee 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
> 
> Yo most Afghans promote PTM or TTP, they aren't pro Imran Khan.
> 
> Most Pakistanis don't know anything about Pashtunkhwa so its okay tho





WHERE is the evidence that proves Pakistani Punjabis are into indian punjabi culture? If you don't have any evidence but rely on your opinions and conjectures it means you are probably lying and making it up.

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## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> "Flipping of perspective"
> 
> I am not even "anti-Pak" I just have some concerns and questions. But, unfortunately Pakistan isn't ready for intellectually rigorous conversations.
> 
> More you ignore and put your head in the sand, the more the problem is going to grow, just saying 😉



Yeah pushing an indian perspective, yep Pakistan is artificial, but endia with no common religion or culture or language are the best lol it is so transparent. I'm not mad keep at it, see if it gets you anywhere



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> WHERE is the evidence that proves Pakistani Punjabis are into indian punjabi culture? If you don't have any evidence but rely on your opinions and conjectures it means you are probably lying and making it up.



It's an indian trying to promote discord, lol it is so transparent its funny.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> Of course they do, but they are the same as their brothers and sisters everywhere, lol Karachi is the biggest Pashtun city in the world, but like I said keep pushing the ondian narrative it does not matter a jot.



The ones I met frankly have no idea bout kuchi dresses or Attan. How is that even Indian narrative?

Some people I have met couldn't name me a single city in Balochistan? Its imperative to know some phrases or stuff from each province rather than sort of imposing it on a whole.

Because then some feel alienated. Some Pashtun diaspora kids don't speak Urdu, as a result the sort of media they listen and are exposed to leaves them left out of mainstream Pakistani stuff.

To prevent this from happening we should build a big tent or an umbrella of Pakistani identity. Iran made a music video depicting different groups.

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## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> Both my grandparents were born in "Pakistan" LOLLLLLL
> 
> I didn't want them to get nationality either.
> 
> You simp for Iran, so I think you are Irani.



Hahahahahaah carry on, buddy. You are so desperate


----------



## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> WHERE is the evidence that proves Pakistani Punjabis are into indian punjabi culture? If you don't have any evidence but rely on your opinions and conjectures it means you are probably lying and making it up.








Some Pakistanis in Pakistan wanted AP Dhillon to come to Pakistan.









Indian singer AP Dhillon denies reports of upcoming Pakistan concerts


Dhillon remained a top trend on Pakistani Twitter over the weekend owing to fake reports of an upcoming concert




www.geo.tv


----------



## Maula Jatt

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> WHERE is the evidence that proves Pakistani Punjabis are into indian punjabi culture? If you don't have any evidence but rely on your opinions and conjectures it means you are probably lying and making it up.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/punjabi-music.37912/ 
@jus_chillin 95 page thread 98% Pakistani 
Lahori diaspora in the frickin US (the most cuck Pakistanis are located in US, and I live in US) does not represent Punjab my friend


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## MultaniGuy

I am a Pathan.

By the way Pashto is a worthless language, and everyone in Pakistan should speak Urdu.

You are Pathan through blood, not through language.

lol

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## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> In the Luton/St Albans area, Pakistanis freely portray their Pakistani identity and heritage. It's like the younger generation of Pakistanis have a lot of pride in their identity and heritage. All the restaurants and shops refer to themselves as Pakistani.



Pakistani fusion stuff is good. 

Younger generation is either into fusion or trying to set new trends. I even know a Pakistani guy open up a halal Mexican restaurant. Its more about money nowadays.


----------



## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> The ones I met frankly have no idea bout kuchi dresses or Attan. How is that even Indian narrative?
> 
> Some people I have met couldn't name me a single city in Balochistan? Its imperative to know some phrases or stuff from each province rather than sort of imposing it on a whole.
> 
> Because then some feel alienated. Some Pashtun diaspora kids don't speak Urdu, as a result the sort of media they listen and are exposed to leaves them left out of mainstream Pakistani stuff.
> 
> To prevent this from happening we should build a big tent or an umbrella of Pakistani identity. Iran made a music video depicting different groups.



Bro is that you in the video you keep pushing it. LoL I know more Pashtun diaspora kids than you lol, never had that problem..


----------



## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> I am a Pathan.
> 
> By the way Pashto is a worthless language, and everyone in Pakistan should speak Urdu.
> 
> You are Pathan through blood, not through language.
> 
> lol



LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Say this to any Pashtun's face lets see what they have to say calling Pashto a worthless language

Whats ur tribe?

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## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> Pakistani fusion stuff is good.
> 
> Younger generation is either into fusion or trying to set new trends. I even know a Pakistani guy open up a halal Mexican restaurant. Its more about money nowadays.


As if I need your confirmation to make me a Pathan. lol.

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## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> Pakistani fusion stuff is good.
> 
> Younger generation is either into fusion or trying to set new trends. I even know a Pakistani guy open up a halal Mexican restaurant. Its more about money nowadays.



Attempts at sowing discord are a waste of time. I am just yelling you the facts.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> Bro is that you in the video you keep pushing it.



I am not even Irani how can that be me?


----------



## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> Say this to any Pashtun's face lets see what they have to say calling Pashto a worthless language
> 
> Whats ur tribe?


Stop talking crap, everyone in Pakistan speaks Urdu.


----------



## Maula Jatt

MultaniGuy said:


> I am a Pathan.
> 
> By the way Pashto is a worthless language, and *everyone in Pakistan should speak Urdu*.
> 
> You are Pathan through blood, not through language.
> 
> lol


Nope sir, I want to speak the language my grandmother told me stories in and I want to pass those stories down my future generations in the same language
I respect role of Urdu but that's that

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## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> I am not even Irani how can that be me?



Nice people the Irani 🇮🇷, have some family links there.


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## MultaniGuy

Sainthood 101 said:


> Nope sir, I want to speak the language my grandmother told me stories in and I want to pass those stories down my future generations in the same language
> I respect role of Urdu but that's that


Yeah sure.

The two official languages of Pakistan are Urdu and English.

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## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> LoL I know more Pashtun diaspora kids than you lol, never had that problem..



Really, then how come most Pakistanis I met have no knowledge about Pashtunkhwa. Or about attan or kuchi dresses. I can tell you countless stories where I used to get sideeyed for not knowing Urdu LMAO.


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## Rafi

Some multi personality disorder on this thread, some guy arguing with himself lol me myself and Irene.


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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Yeah sure.
> 
> The two official languages of Pakistan are Urdu and English.



Your reasoning is why Bangladesh was made 😜

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## MultaniGuy

Rafi said:


> Attempts at sowing discord are a waste of time. I am just yelling you the facts.


I have noticed that these so called other Pakistani members are morons.

Urdu and English are the only languages that matter in Pakistan.


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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> As if I need your confirmation to make me a Pathan. lol.



Whats ur tribe?


----------



## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> Your reasoning is why Bangladesh was made 😜


I wonder if you are even a Pakistani.

Bangladesh was created because it is geographically separate from Pakistan.


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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Urdu and English are the only languages that matter in Pakistan.



You tried doing that in what was East Pakistan, Bengalis revolted 😂


----------



## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> Whats ur tribe?


No, tell me what is your tribe first, you moron.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> I wonder if you are even a Pakistani.
> 
> Bangladesh was created because it is geographically separate from Pakistan.



Language movement was the igniter!

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## Rafi

jus_chillin said:


> Really, then how come most Pakistanis I met have no knowledge about Pashtunkhwa. Or about attan or kuchi dresses. I can tell you countless stories where I used to get sideeyed for not knowing Urdu LMAO.



Bro the diaspora are very much inter married and integrated, this year I have attended 2 Punjabi Pashtun weddings, with both the bride and groom being Pashtun and the celebration including both culture and traditions.


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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> No, tell me what is your tribe first, you moron.



Kakar

Now what's your tribe larper!

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## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> Kakar
> 
> Now what's your tribe larper!


My mother is Yusufzai.

Now shoo.

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## Mirzali Khan

Rafi said:


> Bro the diaspora are very much inter married and integrated, this year I have attended 2 Punjabi Pashtun weddings, with both the bride and groom being Pashtun and the celebration including both culture and traditions.



I never denied that, on a previous thread I also said Punjabi and Pashtun marriages were more common than 10 years ago!

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> Some Pakistanis in Pakistan wanted AP Dhillon to come to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian singer AP Dhillon denies reports of upcoming Pakistan concerts
> 
> 
> Dhillon remained a top trend on Pakistani Twitter over the weekend owing to fake reports of an upcoming concert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.geo.tv



So a FAKE NEWS tweet is credible evidence?.........


----------



## Faqirze

MultaniGuy said:


> I am a Pathan.
> 
> By the way Pashto is a worthless language, and everyone in Pakistan should speak Urdu.
> 
> You are Pathan through blood, not through language.
> 
> lol


No Pashtun would call himself a "Pathan", just saying.

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> My mother is Yusufzai.
> 
> Now shoo.



YOUR TRIBE COMES FROM YOUR DAD NOT YOUR MOM LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

@WarKa DaNG @Imad.Khan @kingQamaR @TNT

Plar ye Pashtun na dey khao waiyee Pashtun dey. Hagha da ham waweeyal che Pashto zhaba beyqaar da 😂😂😂😂



Faqirze said:


> No Pashtun would call himself a "Pathan", just saying.



He claims his mom is Yousafzai while in Pashtunwali the tribe comes from your dad and claims Pashto is a useless language 😂😂

Pakistanis have to stop larping

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> Pakistani fusion stuff is good.
> 
> Younger generation is either into fusion or trying to set new trends. I even know a Pakistani guy open up a halal Mexican restaurant. Its more about money nowadays.




Here in the UK, in the Luton/St Albans area (30 miles outside London) Pakistani diaspora youngsters and businesses proudly display their Pakistani heritage and Pakistaniyat. No fusing here. 100% Pakistani to the core. america/canada is FULL to bursting with Pakistani cucks. Please don't confuse them with ALL Pakistanis.

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## Maula Jatt

MultaniGuy said:


> Yeah sure.
> 
> The two official languages of Pakistan are Urdu and English.


I myself said how Punjabi should be taught in schools - bulleh shah, waris shah are heavyweight Sufi cultural icons world over
we learn Iqbal but we call also read stories of waris shah or poetry of Bulleh Shah

you know Sindh, Punjab even have their unique style of poetry called Kaafi which is unique to us only?
but I was shut down by our mostly Karachite friends, saw same thing on Reddit when someone did it

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## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> So a FAKE NEWS tweet is credible evidence?.........



No, most Pakistanis I know in real life know more Indian Punjabi singers than Pakistani Pashto singers. And also, in that incident hoards of Pakistanis wanted AP Dhillon to come hence he made a statement

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> Really, then how come most Pakistanis I met have no knowledge about Pashtunkhwa. Or about attan or kuchi dresses. I can tell you countless stories where I used to get sideeyed for not knowing Urdu LMAO.




You need yo come to the UK. In america/canada, you have Pakistani cucks who worship and try to please non-Pakistanis. In the UK it is the opposite. Please don't confuse american/canadian Pakistanis with real Pakistanis who are the vast majority.

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## Mirzali Khan

Sainthood 101 said:


> I myself said how Punjabi should be taught in schools - bulleh shah, waris shah are heavyweight sufi cultural icons world over
> 
> but I was shut down by our mostly Karachite friends, same thing happened on Reddit



That's how you know Pakistani identity is a scam, its just a nationality.

If you need to build an identity by erasing local/native cultures then wtf even is that so called "identity"

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> No, most Pakistanis I know in real life know more Indian Punjabi singers than Pakistani Pashto singers. And also, in that incident hoards of Pakistanis wanted AP Dhillon to come hence he made a statement





Hordes? How many?


----------



## Faqirze

jus_chillin said:


> YOUR TRIBE COMES FROM YOUR DAD NOT YOUR MOM LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> @WarKa DaNG @Imad.Khan @kingQamaR @TNT
> 
> Plar ye Pashtun na dey khao waiyee Pashtun dey. Hagha da ham waweeyal che Pashto zhaba beyqaar da 😂😂😂😂
> 
> 
> 
> He claims his mom is Yousafzai while in Pashtunwali the tribe comes from your dad and claims Pashto is a useless language 😂😂
> 
> Pakistanis have to stop larping


Hes Pashtun the same way Imran Khan claims Pashtun ethnicity because his great-great-great grandfather had Pashtun blood or something


----------



## MultaniGuy

Faqirze said:


> No Pashtun would call himself a "Pathan", just saying.


Who told you this crap?



jus_chillin said:


> YOUR TRIBE COMES FROM YOUR DAD NOT YOUR MOM LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> @WarKa DaNG @Imad.Khan @kingQamaR @TNT
> 
> Plar ye Pashtun na dey khao waiyee Pashtun dey. Hagha da ham waweeyal che Pashto zhaba beyqaar da 😂😂😂😂
> 
> 
> 
> He claims his mom is Yousafzai while in Pashtunwali the tribe comes from your dad and claims Pashto is a useless language 😂😂
> 
> Pakistanis have to stop larping


Who are you to decide which ethnicity I come from you moron, with your childish remarks?
Go do your homework kiddo.



Faqirze said:


> No Pashtun would call himself a "Pathan", just saying.


We are talking about Pakistan, not Afghanistani Pathans.

There are more Pathans in Pakistan than in all of Afghanistan.

People who speak Urdu use the word Pathan.



jus_chillin said:


> YOUR TRIBE COMES FROM YOUR DAD NOT YOUR MOM LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> @WarKa DaNG @Imad.Khan @kingQamaR @TNT
> 
> Plar ye Pashtun na dey khao waiyee Pashtun dey. Hagha da ham waweeyal che Pashto zhaba beyqaar da 😂😂😂😂
> 
> 
> 
> He claims his mom is Yousafzai while in Pashtunwali the tribe comes from your dad and claims Pashto is a useless language 😂😂
> 
> Pakistanis have to stop larping


I do not believe in nonsense like Pushtunwali.

now shoo.



Sainthood 101 said:


> I myself said how Punjabi should be taught in schools - bulleh shah, waris shah are heavyweight Sufi cultural icons world over
> we learn Iqbal but we call also read stories of waris shah or poetry of Bulleh Shah
> 
> you know Sindh, Punjab even have their unique style of poetry called Kaafi which is unique to us only?
> but I was shut down by our mostly Karachite friends, saw same thing on Reddit when someone did it


Funny part is that the best works of Allama Iqbal are in Persian, not in Urdu.


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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Who are you to decide which ethnicity I come from you moron, with your childish remarks?
> Go do your homework kiddo.



In Pashtunwali, your tribe comes from your dad, not your mom

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## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> In Pashtunwali, your tribe comes from your dad, not your mom


My father is also of Pathan lineage, but we do not believe in bullcrap called Pashtunwali.

now shoo.

But my mother is more aware of her lineage.

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## BRAVO_

shayad man faqaat yak *Qazalbash* enjaa bashaam

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> We are talking about Pakistan, not Afghanistani Pathans.
> 
> There are more Pathans in Pakistan than in all of Afghanistan.
> 
> People who speak Urdu use the word Pathan.



In Pashto, no one says "Za Patham yam" its either "Za Pashtun yam" or "Za Pakhtoon yam" (depending on which dialect you speak)

But u aint even Pashtun tho, ur just a larper, so you wouldn't know


----------



## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> In Pashto, no one says "Za Patham yam" its either "Za Pashtun yam" or "Za Pakhtoon yam" (depending on which dialect you speak)
> 
> But u aint even Pashtun tho, ur just a larper, so you wouldn't know


And who the hell are you to tell me who I am?

When I say I am a Pathan, I am one.

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## Faqirze

MultaniGuy said:


> We are talking about Pakistan, not Afghanistani Pathans.
> 
> There are more Pathans in Pakistan than in all of Afghanistan.
> 
> People who speak Urdu use the word Pathan.


A lot of Afghan Pashtuns consider the Pakistani ones to be "desified", but even then you sound like a textbook larper. Unless you are an Islamist who doesn't care about ethnicity and puts religion over all.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> That's how you know Pakistani identity is a scam, its just a nationality.
> 
> If you need to build an identity by erasing local/native cultures then wtf even is that so called "identity"



Nationality forms part your identity and even heritage..........you need to have gone to a better school..........

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## MultaniGuy

Faqirze said:


> A lot of Afghan Pashtuns consider the Pakistani ones to be "desified", but even then you sound like a textbook larper. Unless you are an Islamist who doesn't care about ethnicity and puts religion over all.


what the hell does larper mean?

Culturally I am Pakistani.

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> I do not believe in nonsense like Pushtunwali.
> 
> now shoo.





MultaniGuy said:


> My father is also of Pathan lineage, but we do not believe in bullcrap called Pashtunwali.
> 
> now shoo.
> 
> But my mother is more aware of her lineage.



YOOOOO LMFAOOOOOOOO 

@TNT @WarKa DaNG @Imad.Khan @kingQamaR @akramishaqkhan 

Please look at this

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## MultaniGuy

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Nationality forms part your identity and even heritage..........you need to have gone to a better school..........


Pakistani identity is formed by the ethnicities that compose Pakistan:

Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Baloch, and Kashmiris.

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## Maula Jatt

jus_chillin said:


> That's how you know Pakistani identity is a scam, its just a nationality.
> 
> If you need to build an identity by erasing local/native cultures then wtf even is that so called "identity"


wth man, my little brother can't even speak Urdu
But he loves Pakistan to death

why are you mixing this up? Pakistan is our nationality and it's us, we love it, identity or ethnicity is different from nationality 



BRAVO_ said:


> shayad man faqaat yak *Qazalbash* enjaa bashaam


No one can understand Farsi here sir @BRAVO_

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## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Nationality forms part your identity and even heritage..........you need to have gone to a better school..........



No one can answer in a single unified manner "What is Pakistani identity" 

You have one guy in here saying how Pashto is a useless language and claiming to be Pashtun, another guy saying how Pakistan is a continuation of Indus Civilization, and others who think its made for ummah. 

Unless we don't have an actual answer than its a scam. Its just a nationality. Just like how there's Punjabis and SIndhis in India, there's Punjabis and Sindhis in Pakistan. Same for the rest of the groups.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

MultaniGuy said:


> Pakistani identity is formed by the ethnicities that compose Pakistan:
> 
> Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Baloch, and Kashmiris.



The thing with this guy is that he is throwing lots of opinions and conjectures but he has NO evidence to back any of them up.

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Pakistani identity is formed by the ethnicities that compose Pakistan:
> 
> Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Baloch, and Kashmiris.



Its formed by the ethnicities, but you trying to shove Urdu and English down our throats and say Pashto is a useless language.

That, my friend, is the definition of an identity crisis 😂😂

You want to erase the native cultures to fit some concocted identity.


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> No one can answer in a single unified manner "What is Pakistani identity"
> 
> You have one guy in here saying how Pashto is a useless language and claiming to be Pashtun, another guy saying how Pakistan is a continuation of Indus Civilization, and others who think its made for ummah.
> 
> Unless we don't have an actual answer than its a scam. Its just a nationality. Just like how there's Punjabis and SIndhis in India, there's Punjabis and Sindhis in Pakistan. Same for the rest of the groups.



That is the beauty of Pakistan and our identity. We can say what we like without having to worry about being lynched by the ugliest and most subhuman race on the planet. Pakistan protects us and allows this freedom/privilege........

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## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> The thing with this guy is that he is throwing lots of opinions and conjectures but he has NO evidence to back any of them up.



Because its mostly anecdotal, but my evidence is in this forum. Some guy called Pashto a useless language and no outrage from anyone else in this thread.

Do you not see anything wrong with that?


----------



## Faqirze

MultaniGuy said:


> what the hell does larper mean?


How new are you?


MultaniGuy said:


> Culturally I am Pakistani.



"Pakistani" by itself isn't a culture, its made up of many different cultures and ethnicities. There is nothing much cultural about a country created in the name of religion and at its core identity is religion and religion only.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> We can say what we like without having to worry about being lynched by the ugliest and most subhuman race on the planet.



So Pakistani identity is everything against India? Is that your theory? 

This worked for a while, unless ceasefire on LOC happened and Kashmiri militancy screeched to a halt. So the state believes one thing, while telling people another.


----------



## Maula Jatt

jus_chillin said:


> Because its mostly anecdotal, but my evidence is in this forum. Some guy called Pashto a useless language and no outrage from anyone else in this thread.
> 
> Do you not see anything wrong with that?


he also said all language other than Urdu is useless - people did react 3-4 threads but when someone does it a lot , I usually ignore it after a while

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> what the hell does larper mean?



It means when you claim to be Pashtun, but say you don't believe in Pashtunwali, and also say that Pashto is a useless language.

In other words a faker.



Sainthood 101 said:


> he also said all language other than Urdu is useless - people did react 3-4 threads but when someone does it a lot , I usually ignore it after a while



If you don't fight back against that kind of behavior then it gives the impression that people by in large agree.


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> Its formed by the ethnicities, but you trying to shove Urdu and English down our throats and say Pashto is a useless language.
> 
> That, my friend, is the definition of an identity crisis 😂😂
> 
> You want to erase the native cultures to fit some concocted identity.



If it hadn't been for Pakistan then you wouldn't have an identity or Pushto language/heritage . You and your family would probably end up looking like this:

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## Mirzali Khan

Faqirze said:


> "Pakistani" by itself isn't a culture, its made up of many different cultures and ethnicities. There is nothing much cultural about a country created in the name of religion and at its core identity is religion and religion only.



There is a Pakistani culture I won't go that far. I think it has to be more of a big tent or umbrella in order for it to be more settled in.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> Because its mostly anecdotal, but my evidence is in this forum. Some guy called Pashto a useless language and no outrage from anyone else in this thread.
> 
> Do you not see anything wrong with that?




Personally, I love Pushto and ALL Pakistani languages, people and ethnicities. In fact I love all Pakistanis regardless of religion or background.

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## Maula Jatt

jus_chillin said:


> So Pakistani identity is everything against India? Is that your theory?
> 
> This worked for a while, unless ceasefire on LOC happened and Kashmiri militancy screeched to a halt. So the state believes one thing, while telling people another.


since when did Pakistan exist to f with India, we wanted a separate homeland to practice our way of life, not economic subjugation like Muslims face in India, this was our reasons, the blind hatred for us and treatment handed out to everyday Muslims just because of their religion- that was reasons for Kashmir, Punjab, SIndh

we do not "exist" to be unfriendly with India, Jinnah himself wanted friendship with India if the Kashmir issue is taken care of

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## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> If it hadn't been for Pakistan then you wouldn't have an identity or Pushto language/heritage . You and your family would probably end up looking like this:



That makes 0 sense, before Quetta area was under British control we were under Afghanistan and rest of Balochistan was independent. A mapchart from 1815 can prove that.


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> That makes 0 sense, before Quetta area was under British control we were under Afghanistan and rest of Balochistan was independent. A mapchart from 1815 can prove that.
> 
> View attachment 842286





This ain't 1815. If hadn't been for Pakistan, the beautiful Pakistani Pathan race would ended up looking like this thanks to hindutva:


----------



## hussain0216

jus_chillin said:


> Its formed by the ethnicities, but you trying to shove Urdu and English down our throats and say Pashto is a useless language.
> 
> That, my friend, is the definition of an identity crisis 😂😂
> 
> You want to erase the native cultures to fit some concocted identity.


Pakistan is for Pakistanis

I think you need to realise that the afghans have destroyed and humiliated themselves and are worth very little at the moment, they have created chaos in Afghanistan and anyone giving loyalty to them can go live with them in Afghanistan


Very few nations in the world are homogeneous

Many are very very divers from the USA to India to Russia


They give loyalty to their country and not allow ethnocentrism and ethnocentric stupidity to get in the way of their civic responsibility and loyalty to the state

The USA is probably the best example of this multiple and diverse people coming together as American's



Our people are very ethnocentric and often jahil and have allowed ethnocentrism to poison themselves and stop change and development



Sindhi are crying for water now because they thought aunsustrual land was more important then development and dams


Lar aur bar has destroyed the afghans into the most lowest people in the world


I identity as a Muslim and Pakistani, Kashmiri is just an additional explanation of my background

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## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Personally, I love Pushto and ALL Pakistani languages, people and ethnicities. In fact I love all Pakistanis regardless of religion or background.



Same, my thing is that Pakistan has to have a mindset of a big umbrella or big tent.

The culture days are a good step in this, but we should go further. Like for Eid maybe wear something new from a different province. Although the Afghans and BLA are gonna scream "appropriation", we can easily make people feel more connected in line if we can do this. 

In addition, knowing some phrases of each native language would help. Coke Studio new season put new Baloch song called "Kanyaari" and it was based on an old Baloch folk song. This was in my opinion a great first step. 






I know it may sound I am rabidly anti Pak but I am not. Pakistanis need to have tough convos without calling each other Indian or Afghan spies and larpers. 

Me and you have had countless convos before. I don't understand the sudden screeching if I have some genuine concerns and questions.

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## BRAVO_

Sainthood 101 said:


> No one can understand Farsi here sir @BRAVO_



Yes brother thats what said may be i am the only one  but i am proud to call my self a pakistani

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## Mirzali Khan

hussain0216 said:


> Pakistan is for Pakistanis



Yes


hussain0216 said:


> I think you need to realise that the afghans have destroyed and humiliated themselves and are worth very little at the moment, they have created chaos in Afghanistan and anyone giving loyalty to them can go live with them in Afghanistan



Where did I give loyalty to Afghanistan 😂


hussain0216 said:


> Very few nations in the world are homogeneous
> 
> Many are very very divers from the USA to India to Russia
> 
> 
> They give loyalty to their country and not allow ethnocentrism and ethnocentric stupidity to get in the way of their civic responsibility and loyalty to the state
> 
> The USA is probably the best example of this multiple and diverse people coming together as American's



Iran too, look at how they handle ethnic insurgencies. 



hussain0216 said:


> Our people are very ethnocentric and often jahil and have allowed ethnocentrism to poison themselves and stop change and development
> 
> 
> 
> Sindhi are crying for water now because they thought aunsustrual land was more important then development and dams
> 
> 
> Lar aur bar has destroyed the afghans into the most lowest people in the world



Because Pakistani identity is itself by in large confused. 

We should make dramas on Pashtun folk tales and Sindhi folk tales like the Seven Queens of Sindh. Make it inclusive!

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## Maula Jatt

BRAVO_ said:


> Yes brother thats what said may be i am the only one  but i am proud to call my self a pakistani


where do you live in Pakistan?- you know Yahya khan was also supposed to be Punjabi- Pashtun- qizilbash 
tongue twister goes in that order


----------



## Faqirze

jus_chillin said:


> So Pakistani identity is everything against India? Is that your theory?
> 
> This worked for a while, unless ceasefire on LOC happened and Kashmiri militancy screeched to a halt. So the state believes one thing, while telling people another.


"India" is an artificial and made up identity just like "Pakistan", to say anti Hinduism is a huge part of Pakistani identity is more like it then anti India (Most Pakistanis view India as a Hindu state and epitome of Hinduism anyways). The Pakistani establishment only uses India and the Kashmir issue as a distraction for the populace and vice versa for India, the respective establishments for each country have no qualm with each other. Its all a stage

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## Mirzali Khan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> This ain't 1815. If hadn't been for Pakistan, the beautiful Pakistani Pathan race would ended up looking like this thanks to hindutva:



Nah insurgency against India would be more successful, that's the reason people like Bacha Khan and Khan Shaheed Achakzai were against creation of Pakistan, because its harder for people to go against Islam. 

Same reason why jirgas stopped Faqir Ipi's insurgency because they claimed you cannot claim Jihad against a Muslim country. Unfortunately his offspring don't see Pakistan as a Muslim country.



Faqirze said:


> "India" is an artificial and made up identity just like "Pakistan", to say anti Hinduism is a huge part of Pakistani identity is more like it then anti India (Most Pakistanis view India as a Hindu state and epitome of Hinduism anyways). The Pakistani establishment only uses India and the Kashmir issue as a distraction for the populace and vice versa for India, the respective establishments for each country have no qualm with each other. Its all a stage



Like calling TLP and PTM Indian agents but somehow Mohsin Dawar is in parliament and they are all in the gov 😂 😂 😂

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## kingQamaR

MultaniGuy said:


> what the hell does larper mean?
> 
> Culturally I am Pakistani.



All Pakistani Pashtuns are proud that voted for Pakistan in July 1947 referendum. There are 35 million Pashtuns in Pakistan and another 20 million who claim Pashtun ancestry. These questions are asked by people with ulterior motives okay just stop. Pashtuns are the backbone of Pakistan time after time that’s been proven

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## Mirzali Khan

BRAVO_ said:


> Yes brother thats what said may be i am the only one  but i am proud to call my self a pakistani



Did you learn Farsi or spoke it natively?

Mashallah I am still impressed either way.


----------



## hussain0216

jus_chillin said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> Where did I give loyalty to Afghanistan 😂
> 
> 
> Iran too, look at how they handle ethnic insurgencies.
> 
> 
> 
> Because Pakistani identity is itself by in large confused.
> 
> We should make dramas on Pashtun folk tales and Sindhi folk tales like the Seven Queens of Sindh. Make it inclusive!



Plenty of drams and shows and songs and everything else exist



But it was a individual choice to give more loyalty to ethnocentric considerations then loyalty to the country


And not enough was done to promote Pakistan above ethnocentrism

It's taken hold up and down the country but we still have s proportion of the country that are ethnocentric to the point of stupid and it has been destructive for society and allowed everything from TTP to BLA to find space

However

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## Maula Jatt

jus_chillin said:


> Nah insurgency against India would be more successful, that's the reason people like Bacha Khan and Khan Shaheed Achakzai were against creation of Pakistan, because its harder for people to go against Islam.
> 
> Same reason why jirgas stopped Faqir Ipi's insurgency because they claimed you cannot claim Jihad against a Muslim country. Unfortunately his offspring don't see Pakistan as a Muslim country.
> 
> 
> 
> Like calling TLP and PTM Indian agents but somehow Mohsin Dawar is in parliament and they are all in the gov 😂 😂 😂


were insurgencies against the British successful for this insurgency to become successful? it'll be much harder to win insurgency against india than against brits and that's BS Bacha Khan genuinely respected Ghandhi don't know about achaczai



jus_chillin said:


> Did you learn Farsi or spoke it natively?
> 
> Mashallah I am still impressed either way.


native speaker

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## Mirzali Khan

kingQamaR said:


> All Pakistani Pashtuns are proud that voted for Pakistan in July 1947 referendum.



Quetta didn't have a referendum. We were all chilling under the hot sun straight up LOL.



kingQamaR said:


> There are 35 million Pashtuns in Pakistan and another 20 million who claim Pashtun ancestry. These questions are asked by people with ulterior motives okay just stop. Pashtuns are the backbone of Pakistan time after time that’s been proven



He says he doesn't believe in Pashtunwali and says Pashto is a useless language. Don't you see anything wrong with that?


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## kingQamaR

What I wanna say is that if you visit any village of Mianwali you will find 5-10 graves of martyrs in their graveyards literally in every graveyard… in 2018 we have lost 10–12 young ones in Balochistan fighting US and Indian supported BLA. After giving so many young ones for the defense of this country we will not turn out backs towards Pakistan even if someone promise us democracy and billions of dollars of aid (as US do to trap people

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## Mirzali Khan

Sainthood 101 said:


> were insurgencies against British successful for this insurgency to become successful?



Look at Waziristan, the British were having immense trouble there. 


Sainthood 101 said:


> and that's BS Bacha Khan genuinely respected Ghandhi dont know about achaczai



There's mixed theories that I have heard some old kakas tell me


----------



## hussain0216

The above is very important, we have a very patriotic population and we need to now break the ethnocentric stupidity of the fee that has held Pakistan back

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## kingQamaR

jus_chillin said:


> Quetta didn't have a referendum. We were all chilling under the hot sun straight up LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> He says he doesn't believe in Pashtunwali and says Pashto is a useless language. Don't you see anything wrong with that?



You can argue with him until the cows come home sound like he has inferior complexity

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## Mirzali Khan

hussain0216 said:


> Plenty of drams and shows and songs and everything else exist



No they don't Pakistani dramas can only post Sinf Ahan or Fizza Shizza stuff 😂😂

Look at the Lux style awards clothes, they all try to be like gorey. 



hussain0216 said:


> But it was a individual choice to give more loyalty to ethnocentric considerations then loyalty to the country



Who do you think is responsible for that?



hussain0216 said:


> And not enough was done to promote Pakistan above ethnocentrism
> 
> It's taken hold up and down the country but we still have s proportion of the country that are ethnocentric to the point of stupid and it has been destructive for society and allowed everything from TTP to BLA to find space
> 
> However



When you have security forces think PTI social media warriors more dangerous than actual terrorist sympathizers, then what do you think is gonna happen?

When you have people in this forum say Pashto is a useless language and no condemnation from anyone in this thread, what am I supposed to think?

Do you really think I was born yesterday?



kingQamaR said:


> You can argue with him until the cows come home sound like he has inferior complexity



He also claims he is "pAtHaN" lolllll 

But the lack of condemnation from others in this thread is quite astonishing.

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## Maula Jatt

kingQamaR said:


> What I wanna say is that if you visit any village of Mianwali you will find 5-10 graves of martyrs in their graveyards literally in every graveyard… in 2018 we have lost 10–12 young ones in Balochistan fighting US and Indian supported BLA. After giving so many young ones for the defense of this country we will not turn out backs towards Pakistan even if someone promise us democracy and billions of dollars of aid (as US do to trap people


it seems we are breeding men to fight our own people, it was much more honorable to achieve martyrdom fighting Indians than fighting our own people

Some Families I know who died fighting TTP etc were not as "pumped" about it- they said they sent their sons to fight Indians not die fighting Muslims (not all 1-2 ) 
that's why it's very tricky and sad to see such situations

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> Nah insurgency against India would be more successful, that's the reason people like Bacha Khan and Khan Shaheed Achakzai were against creation of Pakistan, because its harder for people to go against Islam.
> 
> Same reason why jirgas stopped Faqir Ipi's insurgency because they claimed you cannot claim Jihad against a Muslim country. Unfortunately his offspring don't see Pakistan as a Muslim country.
> 
> 
> 
> Like calling TLP and PTM Indian agents but somehow Mohsin Dawar is in parliament and they are all in the gov 😂 😂 😂



One on one, their would be no comparison. Agreed But what would 60 million Pathans do against a horde of 1 billion rapidly anti-Muslim gangu-dravidian waves of human excrement?

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## hussain0216

jus_chillin said:


> No they don't Pakistani dramas can only post Sinf Ahan or Fizza Shizza stuff 😂😂
> 
> Look at the Lux style awards clothes, they all try to be like gorey.
> 
> 
> 
> Who do you think is responsible for that?
> 
> 
> 
> When you have security forces think PTI social media warriors more dangerous than actual terrorist sympathizers, then what do you think is gonna happen?
> 
> When you have people in this forum say Pashto is a useless language and no condemnation from anyone in this thread, what am I supposed to think?
> 
> Do you really think I was born yesterday?
> 
> 
> 
> He also claims he is "pAtHaN" lolllll
> 
> But the lack of condemnation from others in this thread is quite astonishing.



What does it matter if someone says Pashto is useless or not, the same goes for any other language

Pakistan however needs a language that everyone can understand so we can function











The Most Patriotic Countries In The World


This is according to Gallup International Poll, which polled a global audience about their willingness to fight for their country.




www.google.com





Pakistan is joint second here on this list

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## Mirzali Khan

Sainthood 101 said:


> Some Families I know who died fighting TTP etc were not as "pumped" about it- they said they sent their sons to fight Indians not die fighting Muslims (not all 1-2 )



If we ever bring that up bro or God forbid I bring that sentiment up its gonna be game over and I will be banned from this forum for like forever.


----------



## MultaniGuy

hussain0216 said:


> What does it matter if someone says Pashto is useless or not, the same goes for any other language
> 
> Pakistan however needs a language that everyone can understand so we can function
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Most Patriotic Countries In The World
> 
> 
> This is according to Gallup International Poll, which polled a global audience about their willingness to fight for their country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan is joint second here on this list


Exactly this @jus_chillin member is a moron.

Pashto is a language hardly anyone can speak in Pakistan.

It is Urdu and English that truly matters.

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## Mirzali Khan

hussain0216 said:


> What does it matter if someone says Pashto is useless or not, the same goes for any other language



Aren't Pakistanis all "one" if someone insults a language that 15% of your population speaks wouldn't it get you mad.

Either you don't care or secretly agree with it. No one condemned him, which is telling....

More people are mad at me poking holes in "Pakistani identity" rather than condemning someone doing semi-hate speech. 


hussain0216 said:


> Pakistan however needs a language that everyone can understand so we can function



So you agree with @MultaniGuy that Pashto is a useless language?


----------



## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> Aren't Pakistanis all "one" if someone insults a language that 15% of your population speaks wouldn't it get you mad.
> 
> Either you don't care or secretly agree with it. No one condemned him, which is telling....
> 
> More people are mad at me poking holes in "Pakistani identity" rather than condemning someone doing semi-hate speech.
> 
> 
> So you agree with @MultaniGuy that Pashto is a useless language?


Urdu and English is what is important in Pakistan.

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Exactly this @jus_chillin member is a moron.
> 
> Pashto is a language hardly anyone can speak in Pakistan.
> 
> It is Urdu and English that truly matters.



Its spoken by 15% of Pakistan's population.

You tried doing the same thing to Bengalis they seceded, you tried to ban Sindhi and actually did which resulted in a political revolt. 

I think people of this forum agree with you that maybe my language and heritage is worthless and useless. Maybe Afghans are right...



MultaniGuy said:


> Urdu and English is what is important in Pakistan.



Do you remember 1971 LMAO


----------



## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> Its spoken by 15% of Pakistan's population.
> 
> You tried doing the same thing to Bengalis they seceded, you tried to ban Sindhi and actually did which resulted in a political revolt.
> 
> I think people of this forum agree with you that maybe my language and heritage is worthless and useless. Maybe Afghans are right...


People in the Frontier province speak Urdu, not your mythical Pashto language.

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Exactly this @jus_chillin member is a moron.



You have an identity crisis, you claim to be Pathan without your dad being Pashtun lmaoo and say Pashtunwali is bullcrap.


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## Faqirze

jus_chillin said:


> Like calling TLP and PTM Indian agents but somehow Mohsin Dawar is in parliament and they are all in the gov 😂 😂 😂


Also India is behind all terrorism and communal violence in Pakistan and are part of an international conspiracy to defame Pakistan's good name. TTP, LeJ, ISIS/KP, all are Indian sponsored outfits. Surely its India's fault that Pakistani security forces constantly failed to provide basic and proper security for its citizens despite well having the ability to do such. Funny thing is that it was actually the PPP that started the whole trend of blaming India for terrorism and separatism in Pakistan despite most Pakistanis accusing the PPP of being Indian agents and what not. Anyhow going a bit off topic here

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> People in the Frontier province speak Urdu, not your mythical Pashto language.



No such thing as frontier. Its called KPK.

People in KPK and northern Balochistan speak Pashto as their mother language. I have never insulted anyone's heritage or language but people are more mad at me than him. Pakistan ki aasliyat. 

@Sainthood 101 @PakSarZameen47 @Bleek @PAKISTANFOREVER

The fact no one is condemning his behavior and remarks proves I am right. Pakistani identity just wants to erase native culture and languages. Its a scam.

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## hussain0216

jus_chillin said:


> Aren't Pakistanis all "one" if someone insults a language that 15% of your population speaks wouldn't it get you mad.
> 
> Either you don't care or secretly agree with it. No one condemned him, which is telling....
> 
> More people are mad at me poking holes in "Pakistani identity" rather than condemning someone doing semi-hate speech.
> 
> 
> So you agree with @MultaniGuy that Pashto is a useless language?



Pashto is as good or as useless as Kashmiri mirpuri, Sindhi or anything else it's only ethnocentric stupidity that creates a problem when everyone really needs to move forward

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## Maula Jatt

Faqirze said:


> Also India is behind all terrorism and communal violence in Pakistan and are part of an international conspiracy to defame Pakistan's good name. TTP, LeJ, ISIS/KP, all are Indian sponsored outfits. Surely its India's fault that Pakistani security forces constantly failed to provide basic and proper security for its citizens despite well having the ability to do such. Funny thing is that it was actually the PPP that started the whole trend of blaming India for terrorism pand separatism in Pakistan despite most Pakistanis accusing the *PPP* of being Indian agents and what not.


No PMLn is accused of India friendly
PPP WAS always anti-india but slaves of the US as said by people


----------



## kingQamaR

MultaniGuy said:


> Exactly this @jus_chillin member is a moron.
> 
> Pashto is a language hardly anyone can speak in Pakistan.
> 
> It is Urdu and English that truly matters.



Pashto is the official language of the Khyber Pkhtunkhwa Province/State of Pakistan who is that not part of Pakistan

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## MultaniGuy

kingQamaR said:


> Pashto is the official language of the Khyber Pkhtunkhwa Province/State of Pakistan who is that not part of Pakistan


Show me where it says that.

The official languages of Pakistan are Urdu and English.

Not Pashto, or Sindhi or any regional language.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

hussain0216 said:


> Pashto is as good or as useless as Kashmiri mirpuri, Sindhi or anything else it's only ethnocentric stupidity that creates a problem when everyone really needs to move forward



So in order to be "Pakistani" we have to erase Pashto? We can respect languages while speaking a lingua franca

I think Afghans are right, why are people being more mad at me while people are calling for the extinction of my language!

@PakSarZameen47 @PAKISTANFOREVER Is this the Pakistan you want? Why aren't you guys condeming this behavior! I have never said anything against anyone's heritage or language!



kingQamaR said:


> Pashto is the official language of the Khyber Pkhtunkhwa Province/State of Pakistan who is that not part of Pakistan



Bro the fact no one is condemning him is actually concerning.

It took some time but I think we have exposed what this "identity" is about. They don't respect local cultures they want to erase it!

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## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> So in order to be "Pakistani" we have to erase Pashto? We can respect languages while speaking a lingua franca
> 
> I think Afghans are right, why are people being more mad at me while people are calling for the extinction of my language!
> 
> @PakSarZameen47 @PAKISTANFOREVER Is this the Pakistan you want? Why aren't you guys condeming this behavior! I have never said anything against anyone's heritage or language!
> 
> 
> 
> Bro the fact no one is condemming him is actually concerning.
> 
> It took some time but I think we have exposed what this "identity" is about. They don't respect local cultures they want to erase it!


Actually I am surprised other members are not condemning your ethnocentric behavior.

Urdu and English are the only languages that matter in Pakistan.

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## Maula Jatt

hussain0216 said:


> Pashto is as good or as useless as Kashmiri mirpuri, Sindhi or anything else it's only ethnocentric stupidity that creates a problem when everyone really needs to move forward


Bhai this forum has a very nasty attitude towards this issue

I said Punjabi should be taught in schools people got mad and ganged up on me , I have heard on this forum like 20-30 times already some really f-ed up things about Punjabi

Paindu, dnagars (animal) language, midevil and belongs to middle ages, on and on

It certainly got me annoyed and mad... So did couple other people

Languages are spoken by your grandmother's, mothers, people have emotions attached to it

We need to respect those emotions

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## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> So in order to be "Pakistani" we have to erase Pashto? We can respect languages while speaking a lingua franca
> 
> I think Afghans are right, why are people being more mad at me while people are calling for the extinction of my language!
> 
> @PakSarZameen47 @PAKISTANFOREVER Is this the Pakistan you want? Why aren't you guys condeming this behavior! I have never said anything against anyone's heritage or language!
> 
> 
> 
> Bro the fact no one is condemning him is actually concerning.
> 
> It took some time but I think we have exposed what this "identity" is about. They don't respect local cultures they want to erase it!



I agree no one should disrespect anyone's language @jus_chillin , its one person saying that, no one else


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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Show me where it says that.
> 
> The official languages of Pakistan are Urdu and English.
> 
> Not Pashto, or Sindhi or any regional language.









You can get your ID card in Sindhi and they make Sindhi learning mandatory in Sindh.


----------



## AgnosticIndian

MultaniGuy said:


> Not Pashto, or Sindhi or any regional language.


your omission of Punjabi here, adding a general "or any other..." might be sussy to your interlocutors. tread carefully, I would say.

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## MultaniGuy

AgnosticIndian said:


> your omission of Punjabi here, adding a general "or any other..." might be sussy to your interlocutors. tread carefully, I would say.


Please stay out of this Indian.

Yes, Punjabi is not as important as Urdu in Pakistan.


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## PakSarZameen47

@waz @LeGenD @The Eagle please close this thread, too many insults being passed. Thanks


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## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> View attachment 842300
> 
> 
> You can get your ID card in Sindhi and they make Sindhi learning mandatory in Sindh.


Since when was wikipedia a valid source?

I go by what people say in Pakistan, not by wikipedia.

Now shoo.

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## Mirzali Khan

Sainthood 101 said:


> Bhai this forum has a very nasty attitude towards this issue
> 
> I said Punjabi should be taught in schools people got mad , I have heard on this forum like 20-30 times already some really f-ed up things about Punjabi
> 
> Paindu, dnagars (animal) language, midevil and belongs to middle ages, on and on
> 
> It certainly got me annoyed



And that shows what a scam "Pakistani identity" is.

We need to have big tent or big umbrella approach, but no one wants to do that!

This thread proves that more people are mad about me asking questions and poking holes rather than a guy calling Pashto "useless" and saying semi-hateful things!

And I am the Indian/Afghan agent

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## hussain0216

jus_chillin said:


> So in order to be "Pakistani" we have to erase Pashto? We can respect languages while speaking a lingua franca
> 
> I think Afghans are right, why are people being more mad at me while people are calling for the extinction of my language!
> 
> @PakSarZameen47 @PAKISTANFOREVER Is this the Pakistan you want? Why aren't you guys condeming this behavior! I have never said anything against anyone's heritage or language!



Afghans have destroyed themselves through their own stupidity, what the afghans believe isn't worth shit at the moment

Speak Pashto, speak it at home, speak it with friends, speak it out and about, it's just another language in a diverse country

The problems start when ethnocentric stupidity starts to create problems for the country moving forward


The same happened in Bengal


We had to "DEAL WITH" millions of Hindus to ensure Bangla remained a Muslim state as per partition, but Bangla was a thousand miles away

As hindutva poison spreads Indian Muslims are beginning to realise how wrong they were, people on the eastern side of the border have always had a good understanding why partition and Pakistan was essential


People on the western side have allowed ethnocentric stupidity to create havoc for decades, Afghans are ruined because rather then move forward they allowed lar aur bar to destroy them and their relationship with their neighbours

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## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> And that shows what a scam "Pakistani identity" is.
> 
> We need to have big tent or big umbrella approach, but no one wants to do that!
> 
> This thread proves that more people are mad about me asking questions and poking holes rather than a guy calling Pashto "useless" and saying semi-hateful things!
> 
> And I am the Indian/Afghan agent


You are asking what is Pakistani identity?

Pakistani identity is this:
1) 96% are Muslim

2) Urdu language

3) Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Kashmiris, and Baloch

4) Punjab, Khyber-Pakthunkwa, Sindh, Balochistan, Kashmir


----------



## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> And that shows what a scam "Pakistani identity" is.
> 
> We need to have big tent or big umbrella approach, but no one wants to do that!
> 
> This thread proves that more people are mad about me asking questions and poking holes rather than a guy calling Pashto "useless" and saying semi-hateful things!
> 
> And I am the Indian/Afghan agent



No one should disrespect anyone's language. We will not erase anyone's culture/language. We need an umbrella approach as you said. There's no point arguing this every day on the forum. No one should call any language useless as it is v offensivem

However you should also refrain from saying Pakistani is a scam. I and others find that v offensive



@waz @LeGenD @Irfan Baloch @The Eagle 

Please close this thread as people are insulting and disrespecting each other.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Since when was wikipedia a valid source?



The footnotes show the sources.


MultaniGuy said:


> I go by what people say in Pakistan, not by wikipedia.



I go by laws, you can get your ID card in Sindhi and learning Sindhi is mandatory in Sindh. 


MultaniGuy said:


> Now shoo.



Stop larping 💀

You wanna be Pashtun so bad, you treat us like a brand LMAOOOOO

Call our language useless but die and crave for our title and blood at the same time 

Thanks for proving to me the haqeeqat and aasliyat of "Pakistani identity"

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Sainthood 101 said:


> it seems we are breeding men to fight our own people, it was much more honorable to achieve martyrdom fighting Indians than fighting our own people
> 
> Some Families I know who died fighting TTP etc were not as "pumped" about it- they said they sent their sons to fight Indians not die fighting Muslims (not all 1-2 )





jus_chillin said:


> So in order to be "Pakistani" we have to erase Pashto? We can respect languages while speaking a lingua franca
> 
> I think Afghans are right, why are people being more mad at me while people are calling for the extinction of my language!
> 
> @PakSarZameen47 @PAKISTANFOREVER Is this the Pakistan you want? Why aren't you guys condeming this behavior! I have never said anything against anyone's heritage or language!
> 
> 
> 
> Bro the fact no one is condemning him is actually concerning.
> 
> It took some time but I think we have exposed what this "identity" is about. They don't respect local cultures they want to erase it!




No it is not. I believe that ALL Pakistan ethnicities and languages are as iimportant as one another. Together we are the Pakistan.

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## MultaniGuy

hussain0216 said:


> Afghans have destroyed themselves through their own stupidity, what the afghans believe isn't worth shit at the moment
> 
> Speak Pashto, speak it at home, speak it with friends, speak it out and about, it's just another language in a diverse country
> 
> The problems start when ethnocentric stupidity starts to create problems for the country moving forward
> 
> 
> The same happened in Bengal
> 
> 
> We had to "DEAL WITH" millions of Hindus to ensure Bangla remained a Muslim state as per partition, but Bangla was a thousand miles away
> 
> As hindutva poison spreads Indian Muslims are beginning to realise how wrong they were, people on the eastern side of the border have always had a good understanding why partition and Pakistan was essential
> 
> 
> People on the western side have allowed ethnocentric stupidity to create havoc for decades, Afghans are ruined because rather then move forward they allowed lar aur bar to destroy them and their relationship with their neighbours


Yes the Afghanistanis have destroyed their country and society because of their own idiocy.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

PakSarZameen47 said:


> No one should disrespect anyone's language. We will not erase anyone's culture/language. We need an umbrella approach as you said. There's no point arguing this every day on the forum
> 
> @waz @LeGenD @Irfan Baloch @The Eagle
> 
> Please close this thread as people are insulting and disrespecting each other.



Then go and directly condemn him. 

No one is doing that. More people are mad at me asking questions and pointing stuff out, while this guy is spewing hate speech.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

MultaniGuy said:


> Show me where it says that.
> 
> The official languages of Pakistan are Urdu and English.
> 
> Not Pashto, or Sindhi or any regional language.



Whatever the official languages are, ALL Pakistani languages and ethnicities are as EQUALLY important and cherished as one another. Together and United we ALL make Pakistan. Without one another, we fall.

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## MultaniGuy

jus_chillin said:


> Then go and directly condemn him.
> 
> No one is doing that. More people are mad at me asking questions and pointing stuff out, while this guy is spewing hate speech.


Some members are upset that you are promoting ethnocentrism.

You keep barking Pashto, hardly anyone in this world can speak that language.

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## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> Then go and directly condemn him.
> 
> No one is doing that. More people are mad at me asking questions and pointing stuff out, while this guy is spewing hate speech.


 
@MultaniGuy please refrain from disrespecting languages by calling them useless as this is causing offense. This is not the way to have a debate. Please apologise


----------



## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> You are asking what is Pakistani identity.
> 
> Pakistani identity is this:
> 1) 96% are Muslim
> 
> 2) Urdu language
> 
> 3) Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Kashmiris, and Baloch
> 
> 4) Punjab, Khyber-Pakthunkwa, Sindh, Balochistan, Kashmir



Million different answers and you say Urdu language , why not include the languages of the ethnicities you listed?

You want to erase our culture, our way of life. The quiet nod from people here kinda show they agree.

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## MultaniGuy

PakSarZameen47 said:


> @MultaniGuy please refrain from disrespecting languages by calling them useless as this is causing offense. This is not there way to have a debate. Please apologise


Pashto and Sindhi languages are not as useful as Urdu.

Urdu is the unifying language in Pakistan.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> And that shows what a scam "Pakistani identity" is.
> 
> We need to have big tent or big umbrella approach, but no one wants to do that!
> 
> This thread proves that more people are mad about me asking questions and poking holes rather than a guy calling Pashto "useless" and saying semi-hateful things!
> 
> And I am the Indian/Afghan agent




I agree with the big umbrella approach.

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## PakSarZameen47

MultaniGuy said:


> Pashto and Sindhi languages are not as useful as Urdu.
> 
> Urdu is the unifying language in Pakistan.



OK but don't call languages useless as this causes offense. We can maintain our local languages and also Urdu together. This is a non issue

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

MultaniGuy said:


> Pashto and Sindhi languages are not as useful as Urdu.
> 
> Urdu is the unifying language in Pakistan.





They are still important as they are Pakistani languages. We need to preserve and cherish them too.

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## MultaniGuy

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> I agree with the big umbrella approach.


Lol, outside of your province and family who is going to speak Pashto or Sindhi languages?

Hardly anyone.

When I was talking to the expatriate Pakistani community in the Middle East, everyone spoke Urdu.

Why is this member promoting ethnocentrism?

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## kingQamaR

MultaniGuy said:


> Show me where it says that.
> 
> The official languages of Pakistan are Urdu and English.
> 
> Not Pashto, or Sindhi or any regional language.



Most widest spoken language in Pakistan is Puunjabi almost half the country speak some form of it yet still its not official language of country because Pakistan is very divorce country and people need a second language to bridge the gap and that gap is filled by Urdu
And i have no idea why someone will ask this question other than to troll.

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Actually I am surprised other members are not condemning your ethnocentric behavior.



How is this ethnocentric is I say I want Pakistan to have a big umbrella or big tent approach to its identity.


MultaniGuy said:


> Urdu and English are the only languages that matter in Pakistan.



You tried doing the same to Bengalis LMAOOO.


MultaniGuy said:


> Now shoo before you further embarrass yourself here.



Your larping of Pashtun people is embarassing.

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

jus_chillin said:


> Million different answers and you say Urdu language , why not include the languages of the ethnicities you listed?
> 
> You want to erase our culture, our way of life. The quiet nod from people here kinda show they agree.



No we don't agree.


----------



## MultaniGuy

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> They are still important as they are Pakistani languages. We need to preserve and cherish them too.


Yes you are correct. I concur with you.

But in terms of usefulness Urdu is the most important one.



jus_chillin said:


> How is this ethnocentric is I say I want Pakistan to have a big umbrella or big tent approach to its identity.
> 
> 
> You tried doing the same to Bengalis LMAOOO.
> 
> 
> Your larping of Pashtun people is embarassing.


What do you mean "You tried doing the same with Bengalis"

*Or are you an "Indian" pretending to be a Pakistani. lol.*

Show your true flags Indiot.

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## Maula Jatt

@MultaniGuy
My little brother doesn't speak a word of Urdu - only punjabi with mother, father and English outside
but loves pakistan to death, wears it on his sleeves 

By the standards you're setting - he won't be Pakistani enough or less if it than rest of the people?

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Lol, outside of your province and family who is going to speak Pashto or Sindhi languages?
> 
> Hardly anyone.



Big umbrella approach is also to show native clothes and culture as well!

But you prove that you want to erase my way of life!!!


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## MultaniGuy

No wonder why your post count is a small 2000.

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## hussain0216

MultaniGuy said:


> Yes the Afghanistanis have destroyed their country and society because of their own idiocy.



The world gave hundreds of Billions to afghans to fix their country

Rather then create alliances and work with their neighbours they embraced lar aur bar and ethnocentric stupidity

It left them a destroyed and wretched people today's whose women and children are starving



we need to heed the warning, ethnocentric jahils need to look at the afghans and realise we can't go down that route

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## PAKISTANFOREVER

MultaniGuy said:


> Lol, outside of your province and family who is going to speak Pashto or Sindhi languages?
> 
> Hardly anyone.
> 
> When I was talking to the expatriate Pakistani community in the Middle East, everyone spoke Urdu.
> 
> Why is this member promoting ethnocentrism?




Big umbrella approach in terms of valuing and cherishing ALL Pakistani languages and ethnicities.

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## MultaniGuy

Sainthood 101 said:


> @MultaniGuy
> My little brother doesn't speak a word of Urdu - only punjabi with mother, father and English outside
> but loves pakistan to death, wears it on his sleeves
> 
> By the standards you're setting - he won't be Pakistani enough or less if it than rest of the people?


Same way this Indian pretending to be a Pakistani is saying I am not Pathan because I don't follow Pashtunwali.

Quite some warped logic he has.

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> What do you mean "You tried doing the same with Bengalis"



Language movement of Bengalis was a catalyst of 1971.


MultaniGuy said:


> But in terms of usefulness Urdu is the most important one.



Its a lingua franca, not meant to be imposed or be a tool to erase other languages!


MultaniGuy said:


> Show your true flags Indiot.



I am Pashtun, the same people you beg so hard to be


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## Indus Pakistan

MultaniGuy said:


> By the way Pashto is a worthless language


If you are Pashtun you should not be saying this, even if you don't speak it the language carries a collective heritage and can't be worthless. It's a terrible thing you said and you should be ashamed of yourself.

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## hussain0216

jus_chillin said:


> Big umbrella approach is also to show native clothes and culture as well!
> 
> But you prove that you want to erase my way of life!!!



Who is erasing your way of life? People are just saying don't allow jahilat to stop development of the country

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## MultaniGuy

Indus Pakistan said:


> If you are Pashtun you should not be saying this, even if you don't speak it the language carries a collective heritage and can't be worthless. It's a terrible thing you said and you should be ashamed of yourself.


Pashto and Sindhi languages are not practical languages.

Hardly anyone speaks or reads in those languages.

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## PakSarZameen47

@jus_chillin @MultaniGuy can you both just stop now. I've asked you to apologise, also @jus_chillin don't disrespect Pak calling a scam. 

We're going through a difficult time as a nation, let's not take frustrations out on each other. This is the kind of thing that is making me think I should leave this forum. Very childish / trolling behaviour . This is supposed to be a defence forum!

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## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Same way this Indian pretending to be a Pakistani is saying I am not Pathan because I don't follow Pashtunwali.
> 
> Quite some warped logic he has.



Hindustaniyan wayee che pashtana pashtunwali koay 

@TNT @Imad.Khan @kingQamaR @WarKa DaNG

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## kingQamaR

MultaniGuy said:


> Pashto and Sindhi languages are not practical languages.
> 
> Hardly anyone speaks or reads in those languages.



Not at all. It is minority Lang from India's state of Bihar . These people migrated to our land and try to snatch our local languages and cultures.It is just spoken by minority of about 7 percent total population . It has no value at all.Majority speak Punjabi ,then Pashto ,Sindhi and balouchi . Their are more minority Langs ,which are entirely ignored by our state.

English is most preferred Lang and mostly all education Is in English happy now !!!

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## Mirzali Khan

Indus Pakistan said:


> If you are Pashtun you should not be saying this, even if you don't speak it the language carries a collective heritage and can't be worthless. It's a terrible thing you said and you should be ashamed of yourself.



HE ISNT THO LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

He's a larp. In Pashtunwali your tribe comes from your dad's side not your mom's side and he calls Pashtunwali bullcrap. 

Can't speak a lick of Pashto either. Sad case of inferiority complex.

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## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> Language movement of Bengalis was a catalyst of 1971.
> 
> 
> Its a lingua franca, not meant to be imposed or be a tool to erase other languages!
> 
> 
> I am Pashtun, the same people you beg so hard to be



Also language movement was an excuse as Bengali was made a national language. Mujib was a communist stooge and was caught planning with India and Soviet Union during Agartala Saazish, khair that's a different story.

I hope mods close this thread, its becoming a useless debate

@waz @The Eagle @Irfan Baloch

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## MultaniGuy

kingQamaR said:


> Not at all. It is minority Lang from India's state of Bihar . These people migrated to our land and try to snatch our local languages and cultures.It is just spoken by minority of about 7 percent total population . It has no value at all.Majority speak Punjabi ,then Pashto ,Sindhi and balouchi . Their are more minority Langs ,which are entirely ignored by our state.
> 
> English is most preferred Lang and mostly all education Is in English happy now !!!


When Pakistan was being even Liaquat Ali Khan said the national language would be Urdu.

Why are people getting upset?

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## Mirzali Khan

hussain0216 said:


> Who is erasing your way of life? People are just saying don't allow jahilat to stop development of the country



So using big umbrella and big tent approach in Pakistani development of identity is allowing jahallat?



MultaniGuy said:


> When Pakistan was being even Liaquat Ali Khan said the national language would be Urdu.



National language as in lingua franca. Looks like you haven't learned the lesson from 1971!



MultaniGuy said:


> Why are people getting upset?



Because you are calling people's mother tounge's useless 💀

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## Kağan Zafer

I don't see unsolvable problems in the Turkish-Pakistani relationship. Every human social interaction is bound to have its ups and downs. Having a matter on hand which is bothering one side is not going to undo a decades-old partnership. 

Ask yourself: Would you throw away your Porsche because one of the tires got punctured? 

I feel like this debate has more to do with Pakistan itself than with the actual state of the Turko-Pakistani relationship. Every illegal immigrant is also a stark reminder of your own shortcomings and failures while, at the same time, you're forced to face this hurting reality. 

I understand that this can be emotionally burdening. All I can say is that we shouldn't underestimate this topic as a potential source of hazard, but it is not a breaking point of our relationship.

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## Mirzali Khan

PakSarZameen47 said:


> @jus_chillin @MultaniGuy can you both just stop now. I've asked you to apologise, also @jus_chillin don't disrespect Pak calling a scam.
> 
> We're going through a difficult time as a nation, let's not take frustrations out on each other. This is the kind of thing that is making me think I should leave this forum. Very childish / trolling behaviour . This is supposed to be a defence forum!



No one in this thread is widely condemning him!

They are more mad at me while I haven't said anything negative!!!!

This is the reality of a Pakistani identity, an erasure of local and native languages and cultures!!

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## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> No one in this thread is widely condemning him!
> 
> They are more mad at me while I haven't said anything negative!!!!
> 
> This is the reality of a Pakistani identity, an erasure of local and native languages and cultures!!



I asked him to apologise and condemned him what are you talking about. So did @PAKISTANFOREVER . I've asked mods to close thread as well. What else do you want me to do

At the same time you keep calling Pak a scam?


----------



## Mirzali Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Sindhi languages are not practical languages



You are unironically proving GM Syed correct when you are saying that stuff  



PakSarZameen47 said:


> At the same time you keep calling Pak a scam?



The identity part of it. No one can actually agree on what it actually is.

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## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> You are unironically proving GM Syed correct when you are saying that stuff
> 
> 
> 
> The identity part of it. No one can actually agree on what it actually is.



It can be whatever you want - umbrella and all. This has been argued to death. Its useless. 

Let's focus on our bigger problems at the moment.

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## Mirzali Khan

PakSarZameen47 said:


> It can be whatever you want - umbrella and all. This has been argued to death. Its useless.
> 
> Let's focus on our bigger problems at the moment.



So you think its fair I have been called Indian and Afghan larper while some guy on this forum is calling Sindhi and Pashto useless languages? Spreading hate and is ironically proving people like Achakzai and JM Syed correct?

Some people have been calling my umbrella approach as a form of "promoting jahilliyat" LOL

I think I had a hunch of what this identity was and I have been proven correct!


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## hussain0216

jus_chillin said:


> So using big umbrella and big tent approach in Pakistani development of identity is allowing jahallat?
> 
> 
> 
> National language as in lingua franca. Looks like you haven't learned the lesson from 1971!
> 
> 
> 
> Because you are calling people's mother tounge's useless 💀



No by all means big umbrella approach seems sensible and appropriate, but we can't deny ethnocentric extremism, jahilat and stupidity and even open terrorism emerging from this ethnocentrism

Nothing can be allowed to supercede the state, the country is vital for our defence as a people

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## Mirzali Khan

hussain0216 said:


> but we can't deny ethnocentric extremism, jahilat and stupidity and even open terrorism emerging from this ethnocentrism



Ethnocentrism will inadvertently develop when you have people on this forum calling my language and Sindhi language "useless". 

More people are mad at me than at a guy spewing hate speech! Shows the aasliyat of this Pakistani identity!


----------



## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> So you think its fair I have been called Indian and Afghan larper while some guy on this forum is calling Sindhi and Pashto useless languages? Spreading hate and is ironically proving people like Achakzai and JM Syed correct?
> 
> Some people have been calling my umbrella approach as a form of "promoting jahilliyat" LOL
> 
> I think I had a hunch of what this identity was and I have been proven correct!



I literally said it was not correct to disrespect languages! I asked him to apologise and not spread hate.

@hussain0216 is right in that you promote cultures etc without ethnocentrism. It's not that hard to understand. 

I've had enough of this now.

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## Mirzali Khan

PakSarZameen47 said:


> I literally said it was not correct to disrespect languages! I asked him to apologise.



Thank you.

But, the vast majority are more mad at me than at him. I think that is definitely concerning.


----------



## TNT

MultaniGuy said:


> Pashto and Sindhi languages are not practical languages.
> 
> Hardly anyone speaks or reads in those languages.



Bro are u serious??? Millions of ppl speak pashto, its thousands of years old language, it carries a rich history. The pashto poetry is deep and fascinating. Its the only language that i think rivals urdu and arabic in being poetic and poetry friendly language. If you could even partially understand rehman baba poetry, ud find it way way above Iqbal, bulleh shah, waris etc. 
Having many languages in a country is not bad, infact its beneficial, we can learn mother tongue along with urdu and English and even some arabic. The nation that learns more languages as a requirement of society tends to be smarter. 
Call it good or bad but if u cant speak pashto, u r not considered to be a pashtun in pashtun society, even if both ur parents are pashtun. Not only that, u should have pashtun accent of ur area, meaning pashto should be ur mother tongue. Its why pashtuns can identify each other easily through the accent and can identify those who learned it.
As a pashtun, i love urdu as well, its my connection to the rest of Pakistan and i think its extremely important to preserve and encourage urdu. Similarly English is my connection to the rest of the world and equally important. Doesn't mean i abandon pashto or sindhi or any other regional language.

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## PakSarZameen47

TNT said:


> Bro are u serious??? Millions of ppl speak pashto, its thousands of years old language, it carries a rich history. The pashto poetry is deep and fascinating. Its the only language that i think rivals urdu and arabic in being poetic and poetry friendly language. If you could even partially understand rehman baba poetry, ud find it way way above Iqbal, bulleh shah, waris etc.
> Having many languages in a country is not bad, infact its beneficial, we can learn mother tongue along with urdu and English and even some arabic. The nation that learns more languages as a requirement of society tends to be smarter.
> Call it good or bad but if u cant speak pashto, u r not considered to be a pashtun in pashtun society, even if both ur parents are pashtun. Not only that, u should have pashtun accent of ur area, meaning pashto should be ur mother tongue. Its why pashtuns can identify each other easily through the accent and can identify those who learned it.
> As a pashtun, i love urdu as well, its my connection to the rest of Pakistan and i think its extremely important to preserve and encourage urdu. Similarly English is my connection to the rest of the world and equally important. Doesn't mean i abandon pashto or sindhi or any other regional language.



You are 100% correct brother. Thankyou for this!

We must preserve both regional languages, as well as out national language and English to compete in global world.

There is no debate here.

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## hussain0216

jus_chillin said:


> Ethnocentrism will inadvertently develop when you have people on this forum calling my language and Sindhi language "useless".
> 
> More people are mad at me than at a guy spewing hate speech! Shows the aasliyat of this Pakistani identity!



You already give loyalty to an afghan identity that has burnt and buried the afghans, your failure to defend and stand up for the country has created havoc for decades in your areas

It's time to move on, time to grow, Afghanistan is done and finished, expect it to break apart as everyone has had enough

What we can't do is drag the stupidity into Pakistan



We are utilising hindutva against our enemies inside India to create divisions

The enemy will use ethnocentric jahilat against us and we have to be prepared for these enemies whether Hindu or afghan

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## kingQamaR

It’s actually a very bizarre topic I’m looking at makes no sense to me think about it we are trashing our own native language for a foreign import no offence. Brits voted out of eu preserve there identity here we are saying the opposite. some people on here are so sensitive when people speak of their own mother-languages it scares certain peoples to death. Urdu Lang has no monopoly, over us. If it’s strong enough it will survive otherwise it will die and disappear.

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## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> Thank you.
> 
> But, the vast majority are more mad at me than at him. I think that is definitely concerning.



I think people feel that they way you're conveying your points are negative agasint Pak. It comes across as if you're trying to attack Pakistan (which I don't think you are) which is why they are mad. Misunderstanding I think

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## Maula Jatt

kingQamaR said:


> It’s actually a very bizarre topic I’m looking at makes no sense to me think about it we are trashing our own native language for a foreign import no offence. Brits voted out of eu preserve there identity here we are saying the opposite. some people on here are so sensitive when people speak of their own mother-languages it scares certain peoples to death. Urdu Lang has no monopoly, over us. If it’s strong enough it will survive otherwise it will die and disappear.


Like it or not - without Pakistanis blessings it's a dead language

It's us who give it power and respect and it's us who can take it away too

We respect it, we cherish it, we use it
but it ain't bigger than us

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## PakSarZameen47

Sainthood 101 said:


> Like it or not - without Pakistanis blessings it's a dead language
> 
> It's us who give it power and respect and it's us who can take it away too
> 
> We respect it, we chrish it
> but it ain't bigger than us



We will always respect and cherish it because we own it now. There's no debate


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## Talwar e Pakistan

jus_chillin said:


> Because Pakistani identity itself relies on Islam and Urdu to try to push some sort of comradery among its groups that frankly had nothing to do with each other before British rule. This results in extreme radicalization.


That is not true. Pakistani ethnic groups have been living alongside each other for over a millennia. The geographic, economic, political, historic and genetic interconnection between Pakistani ethnic groups did not poof into existence with British rule but has always resided here. Once you study the history and anthropology of this land, you'll realize that we are far closer to each other than we realize. 

Though I do agree, instead of centering our national identity around our native culture(s), heritage and other indigenous elements, we have adopted a "Indian Muslim" national identity and in the footsteps of the British before us, have been using this foreign identity to homogenize the entire nation. This will only lead to further escalation of ethno-nationalism. 





Sainthood 101 said:


> you'll struggle to find one except for Europe (in the end they themselves are moving towards the powerful EU)


European nations such as France and England were actually very ethno-culturally and linguistically diverse. Beginning in the late 1700's, West European nations began to undergo a rapid process of homogenization leading to the ethnocultural makeup that we are familiar with today. 



jus_chillin said:


> Well to me its the opposite. Pakistan is a chapter in all group's history, the groups aren't a chapter in Pakistan's history.


That would apply to Pakistan as a *political* entity and any other nation as well. However, as the embodiment of geographic unity, that is not true. Ethnic groups develop, converge, dissolve, etc... they are dynamic. Couple centuries ago, there was no concept of a "Punjabi ethnicity", today it is the largest ethnic group in Pakistan. How people decide to call themselves or define their cultures will always change, however, the land will always remain. We are the ones that are the mere chapters in the history of this land, never the other way around.


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## Kağan Zafer

jus_chillin said:


> This is the reality of a Pakistani identity, an erasure of local and native languages and cultures!!



Very interesting point, though, you shouldn't single out the Pakistani state. There are many ethnic, religious and linguistic sub-identities that states like Germany, France, Turkey, China, Italy or even Sweden have physically and socially erased over time to forge a somewhat homogeneous and functioning _nation_ out of a demographic "mess". 

In fact, Pakistan is incredibly tolerant and lenient when it comes to local identities. One might say even too lenient and tolerant at times...which some people use as a faulty excuse to point out the 'artificial' character of Pakistan. 

The truth is that every single nationstate is artificial. The whole concept is, historically speaking, brandnew and most states came to being just yesterday, even those in Western Europe. 

Your criticism seems a little backhanded because you are criticzing the very existence of a Pakistani identity and not what it should or should not contain.

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## Mirzali Khan

TNT said:


> Bro are u serious???



Kinda shows what this "pak identity" is sort of about. 


TNT said:


> Millions of ppl speak pashto, its thousands of years old language, it carries a rich history. The pashto poetry is deep and fascinating. Its the only language that i think rivals urdu and arabic in being poetic and poetry friendly language. If you could even partially understand rehman baba poetry, ud find it way way above Iqbal, bulleh shah, waris etc.



And EVERY LANGUAGE IS BEAUTIFUL!!!! You can cherish one without thrashing another!


TNT said:


> Having many languages in a country is not bad, infact its beneficial, we can learn mother tongue along with urdu and English and even some arabic. The nation that learns more languages as a requirement of society tends to be smarter.



India has multiple regional languages and some Indians can speak upwards of up to 4-5 lamgauges. 


TNT said:


> Call it good or bad but if u cant speak pashto, u r not considered to be a pashtun in pashtun society, even if both ur parents are pashtun. Not only that, u should have pashtun accent of ur area, meaning pashto should be ur mother tongue. Its why pashtuns can identify each other easily through the accent and can identify those who learned it.



Yup! The Waziri and Afridi dialects are different than southern and Yousafzai Pashto. That's the beauty of it.


TNT said:


> As a pashtun, i love urdu as well, its my connection to the rest of Pakistan and i think its extremely important to preserve and encourage urdu. Similarly English is my connection to the rest of the world and equally important. Doesn't mean i abandon pashto or sindhi or any other regional language.



Yea we should all learn basic phrases of each language. It can go a long way!



hussain0216 said:


> You already give loyalty to an afghan identity that has burnt and buried the afghans, your failure to defend and stand up for the country has created havoc for decades in your areas
> 
> It's time to move on, time to grow, Afghanistan is done and finished, expect it to break apart as everyone has had enough
> 
> What we can't do is drag the stupidity into Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> We are utilising hindutva against our enemies inside India to create divisions
> 
> The enemy will use ethnocentric jahilat against us and we have to be prepared for these enemies whether Hindu or afghan



This is an example of racism! Where did I ever say I want to join Afghanistan?!

Members of this forum should condemn this behavior!



kingQamaR said:


> It’s actually a very bizarre topic I’m looking at makes no sense to me think about it we are trashing our own native language for a foreign import no offence. Brits voted out of eu preserve there identity here we are saying the opposite. some people on here are so sensitive when people speak of their own mother-languages it scares certain peoples to death. Urdu Lang has no monopoly, over us. If it’s strong enough it will survive otherwise it will die and disappear.



And this thread proved exactly what you said. Why are people so scared of us wanting to cherish our local and native languages 🤔



PakSarZameen47 said:


> I think people feel that they way you're conveying your points are negative agasint Pak. It comes across as if you're trying to attack Pakistan (which I don't think you are) which is why they are mad. Misunderstanding I think



So insulting 2 languages is lesser offense in this forum's eyes?



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Once you study the history and anthropology of this land, you'll realize that we are far closer to each other than we realize.



Then why are all our cultures so diverse and languages so different from each other?


----------



## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> Kinda shows what this "pak identity" is sort of about.
> 
> 
> And EVERY LANGUAGE IS BEAUTIFUL!!!! You can cherish one without thrashing another!
> 
> 
> India has multiple regional languages and some Indians can speak upwards of up to 4-5 lamgauges.
> 
> 
> Yup! The Waziri and Afridi dialects are different than southern and Yousafzai Pashto. That's the beauty of it.
> 
> 
> Yea we should all learn basic phrases of each language. It can go a long way!
> 
> 
> 
> This is an example of racism! Where did I ever say I want to join Afghanistan?!
> 
> Members of this forum should condemn this behavior!
> 
> 
> 
> And this thread proved exactly what you said. Why are people so scared of us wanting to cherish our local and native languages 🤔
> 
> 
> 
> So insulting 2 languages is lesser offense in this forum's eyes?



There's only 5 people on this thread , it doesn't represent the whole forum.

Let's all stop arguing and insulting each other. It is not fitting with this forum.

This topic has been stretched way further than it needs to go. Completely unnecessary. 

I know IK's removal has been difficult. I've said a little patience and things will be right on track. In mean time we should not start fighting ourselves. We are I a vulnerable state, India is planning to test waters soon. We have bigger serious issues to be dealing with soon. 

I'm not going to comment in this topic again.


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## Mirzali Khan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Though I do agree, instead of centering our national identity around our native culture(s), heritage and other indigenous elements, we have adopted a "Indian Muslim" national identity and in the footsteps of the British before us, have been using this foreign identity to homogenize the entire nation. This will only lead to further escalation of ethno-nationalism.



Because some people genuinely believe that Pakistan is a successor state to Mughal Empire



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Couple centuries ago, there was no concept of a "Punjabi ethnicity", today it is the largest ethnic group in Pakistan. How people decide to call themselves or define their cultures will always change, however, the land will always remain. We are the ones that are the mere chapters in the history of this land, never the other way around.



This land has always existed but Pakistan in itself is new.



PakSarZameen47 said:


> Let's all stop arguing and insulting each other.



Don't do "both sides" I never insulted anyone's language or heritage!!



Bleek said:


> Pakistani nationalism needs to be combined with ethnic nationalism, no matter how hard you try, there is no denying the incredibly polar society in terms of conservatism, phenotypical looks (ethnicity), and culture which exists in each region.
> 
> The solution is not to force everyone under a single identity and disregard a massive part of who they are, it's to combine them together so people can feel proud for both. Otherwise it causes people to lash out with ethno-nationalist movements (sometimes armed).
> 
> More provincial autonomy and cultural + linguistic preservation which can be mixed together with the idea of Pakistan.
> 
> People should be proud to call themselves a Pashtun from Pakistan, a Punjabi from Pakistan, a Sindhi from Pakistan, etc etc.
> 
> This is the only compromise otherwise your world will come crashing down trying to force everyone under a single blanket term like Pakistani.
> 
> @jus_chillin What do you think?



Yup fully agree


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## kingQamaR

PakSarZameen47 said:


> We will always respect and cherish it because we own it now. There's no debate



It goes both ways mate.

If the rest of us respect Urdu they can do same for ours or they can get lost

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## PakSarZameen47

jus_chillin said:


> Because some people genuinely believe that Pakistan is a successor state to Mughal Empire
> 
> 
> 
> This land has always existed but Pakistan in itself is new.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't do "both sides" I never insulted anyone's language or heritage!!
> 
> 
> 
> Yup fully agree, everyone respect each other



I'm not both siding, I never asked you to apologise to anyone



kingQamaR said:


> It goes both ways mate.
> 
> If the rest of us respect Urdu they can do same for ours or they can get lost



Yes I agree, everyone to respect each other

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## Talwar e Pakistan

MultaniGuy said:


> Exactly this @jus_chillin member is a moron.
> 
> Pashto is a language hardly anyone can speak in Pakistan.
> 
> It is Urdu and English that truly matters.





> By the way Pashto is a worthless language, and everyone in Pakistan should speak Urdu.



There are nearly triple the amount of native Pashto speakers compared to native Urdu speakers.

Urdu is a Hindustani language developed in North India, it was roughly alien to Pakistan until the British introduced it in the 1880's under a process to amalgamate their newly conquered but linguistically diverse subjects.

Pashto on the other hand is a native language with a deep and rich history that is interwoven with this land.

English and Urdu serve their purpose as a lingua franca, leave it at that. But to insult one's mother tongue in favor of languages that were enforced onto us by a foreigner's sword is a sad and embarrassing level of self-loathing.

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## Mirzali Khan

Faqirze said:


> A lot of Afghan Pashtuns consider the Pakistani ones to be "desified", but even then you sound like a textbook larper. Unless you are an Islamist who doesn't care about ethnicity and puts religion over all.



The world is a crazy place, I used to get called "Gul Khan" by Afghans and now my fellow Pakistanis think I am some hidden Indo-Afghan terrorist sympathizer 😂



Talwar e Pakistan said:


> There are nearly triple the amount of native Pashto speakers compared to native Urdu speakers.
> 
> Urdu is a Hindustani language developed in North India, it was roughly alien to Pakistan until the British introduced it in the 1880's under a process to amalgamate their newly conquered but linguistically diverse subjects.
> 
> Pashto on the other hand is a native language with a deep and rich history that is interwoven with this land.
> 
> English and Urdu serve their purpose as a lingua franca, leave it at that. But to insult one's mother tongue in favor of languages that were enforced onto us by a foreigner's sword is a sad and embarrassing level of self-loathing.



He is not Pashtun LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

In Pashtunwali your tribe comes from your dad's side not your mom's side and you aren't seen as a real Pashtun if you can't speak Pashto as @TNT said. 

He calls Pashto a useless language but desperately tries to cling to the "pAtHaN" label. 

Extreme inferiority complex.

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## Mirzali Khan

Kağan Zafer said:


> Every illegal immigrant is also a stark reminder of your own shortcomings and failures while, at the same time, you're forced to face this hurting reality.
> 
> I understand that this can be emotionally burdening. All I can say is that we shouldn't underestimate this topic as a potential source of hazard, but it is not a breaking point of our relationship.



Also because the culture promotes a weird fetishizing of Turkish women which people in Pakistan actually believe if they go to Turkey they will find a Haleema for themselves. And lets not forget about this really weird and disturbing action that is being promoted by a news channel as a "love story"


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## Ssan

The point of Pakistan is spelled out in the Objectives Resolution. Pakistan is the most interesting experiment in Islamic democracy- Jinnah understood this well too btw. 

If as some of our posters are saying, we turn towards secularism, there is nothing special about Pakistan and the Pakistani nation will disintegrate into 5 separate ethnic nations. Not to speak about the Indian immigrants. Of which Jinnah belonged. The biggest Achilles heal for us has been our demographic make up- pre-71, when the bengalis decided to become secular, they could simply vote for bengalism and where did that leave the rest of west Pakistan. Now, imagine if Punjab openly decides to just vote on ethnicity or secular identity, where will that leave the rest of us. 

So no, the goal is not to be some insular ethnic nationalist country based on some indus cradle identity. The only reason we have held together is because of our religious (Islamic) identity. We should espouse to be more than this too. We can be what Prussia was for the hundreds of small Germanic states that it absorbed if we become strong and independent. 

Allama Iqbal understood this well. He wrote in jawab ashikwa that famous stanza - he also invited Leopold Weiss, converted to Muhammad Asad to join and represent Pakistan in UN. What does an Austrian Jew have to do with Pakistan except for this very idea of an Islamic democracy.

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## Mirzali Khan

Kağan Zafer said:


> Very interesting point, though, you shouldn't single out the Pakistani state. There are many ethnic, religious and linguistic sub-identities that states like Germany, France, Turkey, China, Italy or even Sweden have physically and socially erased over time to forge a somewhat homogeneous and functioning _nation_ out of a demographic "mess".
> 
> In fact, Pakistan is incredibly tolerant and lenient when it comes to local identities. One might say even too lenient and tolerant at times...which some people use as a faulty excuse to point out the 'artificial' character of Pakistan.
> 
> The truth is that every single nationstate is artificial. The whole concept is, historically speaking, brandnew and most states came to being just yesterday, even those in Western Europe.
> 
> Your criticism seems a little backhanded because you are criticzing the very existence of a Pakistani identity and not what it should or should not contain.



Fair point. Excellent post.


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## BordoEnes

I have said this before and I'll say it again. Turks know what to expect from Pakistan and the Pakistani people. There is no image and perception problem that could have contributed to the rift, rather its seems to be solely from the Pakistani side where much misconception is derived from. The truth is that you seem to have put us on some pedestal of a country you should strive to be, whilst we ourselves are not content or particularly happy with our direction. Its just like you said, when you associate yourselves with Erdogan and his highly Islamized views/ideology you are subject to the same criticism that are directed at him as well. Turks don't like Erdogan anymore, period. So when you keep talking about him like he is the next fucking messiah whilst not experiencing the economic hardship and his dictatorial rule that he brought with him we are understandably extremely upset. Enjoy Turkish media to your liking, but understand that that's who were in the past and not who we are now. I mean we all have told you countless times that Turkish TV series were absolute fictional garbage for a reason. Seriously I personally on many occasions have pointed it out throughout the years on this forum.

Turkey and Pakistan are going to stay friends and partners regardless, and make no mistake we are still very aware and appreciate the sacrifices the Indian Muslims and Pakistani's did during the times of the Caliphate but a relationship should be constructive and go both ways. We like Pakistani people, but we are not going out of our way to avoid talking about the problems that our country faces, unfortunately for you we simply no longer can afford to have an open-border policy as evidenced by the countless issues that come along with having close to 10 million refugees/immigrants, among them many Pakistan men it seems. It does not help that even in this forum you people are highly Islamized and fundamentally opposed to secularism it seems. Even the people living in the West have the audacity to criticize much of its institutions and rule of law, but have no problems hypocritically enjoying the many advantages of them. This reality check was bound to happen, and truth be told many of us at least tried to warn you to some extent. If you love Turkey and Turks, then you should love the foundations and its fundamental secular identity, not to mention the social values and norms that come with it _cough_ woman _cough_. There is no conditional love with us, its total nonsense.

You need to understand that identities are extremely fluid. Historically it used to be based on religion, and that goes for the Turks as well. We used to be sworn enemies with our own ethnic Azerbaijani Turks kin based solely on adhering to different sects of Islam, but now we are nothing short of a united single people with two states, because we moved past it. Hell even now as we speak we are moving away from an ethnic identity and moving towards as civic/national based one where minorities become more involved and inclusive. We kept moving forward and chancing, and your identity foundation remained the same. If it works for you, that's fine its not my place to judge but it does matter to our perception of you. Be proud of your history and all the ties we share, but move past them. 

TLDR:
You have fetishized your own islamist ideology in a weird form of historical nostalgia and have imposed your views in countries and people that do not share it.

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## Mirzali Khan

Ssan said:


> So no, the goal is not to be some insular ethnic nationalist country based on some indus cradle identity. The only reason we have held together is because of our religious (Islamic) identity. We should espouse to be more than this too. We can be what Prussia was for the hundreds of small Germanic states that it absorbed if we become strong and independent.



Do it the Iran way. Promote Islam to counter cultural Marxism while also acknowledging and being proud of our ethnicities that reside in this land.

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## akramishaqkhan

jus_chillin said:


> YOOOOO LMFAOOOOOOOO
> 
> @TNT @WarKa DaNG @Imad.Khan @kingQamaR @akramishaqkhan
> 
> Please look at this


No point in arguing. We are what we believe.

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## Mirzali Khan

akramishaqkhan said:


> No point in arguing. We are what we believe.



Der sha rora


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

akramishaqkhan said:


> No point in arguing. We are what we believe.



So Filipinos and indians living in the UK who call themselves english are now english people?...............


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## Maula Jatt

jus_chillin said:


> Do it the Iran way. Promote Islam to counter cultural Marxism while also acknowledging and being proud of our ethnicities that reside in this land.


does Ali Zafar count?  , he is the only who thinks from that angle nowadays

















Although he was kinda criticized on this forum or made fun of cause its very cringy - but it what it is at least he is trying

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## Mirzali Khan

Sainthood 101 said:


> does Ali Zafar count?  , he is the only who thinks from that angle nowadays
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although he was kinda criticized on this forum or made fun of cause its very cringy - but it what it is at least he is trying



I respect Ali Zafar for making a song in PASHTO! 10 years ago that would've been UNTHINKABLE! It became a hit in Pakistan!

It shows we have the roots and seeds there we need to actually act on it.

Ali Zafar triggered Afghans so hard that they started comparing it to that donkey Ahmed Zahir's version. Ahmed Zahir's version straight up sounds like a dying donkey. Some started claiming Pakistan is stealing culture and appropriating it 😂 

Countless tik toks were made calling it "fake" while it started to unite Pakistanis. The original song was a folk song that was made by Gulnar Begum in the 50's.

Larsha Peshawar by Ali Zafar and Kanyaari from Coke Studio were well received by the Pakistani populace too.

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## Ssan

jus_chillin said:


> Do it the Iran way. Promote Islam to counter cultural Marxism while also acknowledging and being proud of our ethnicities that reside in this land.


We can’t do it like Iran. Iran itself is an ethnic nationalist country at the root of it. The name itself means “Aryan” in Persian. Historically, the Safavid state converted what used to be a Sunni country to Shia’ism and then promoted a version of Shia theology called Usulism to control large swathes of shia population outside of Iran proper.

Our experiment is different, we have no single overwhelming ethnicity, but we do have an idea of islamic democracy where we can try to celebrate everyone’s differences while granting everyone equal rights under the umbrella of an islamic civil state. If we do this, we would become truly exceptional.

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## Faqirze

jus_chillin said:


> The world is a crazy place, I used to get called "Gul Khan" by Afghans and now my fellow Pakistanis think I am some hidden Indo-Afghan terrorist sympathizer 😂


That must mean you are doing something right


jus_chillin said:


> Also because the culture promotes a weird fetishizing of Turkish women which people in Pakistan actually believe if they go to Turkey they will find a Haleema for themselves. And lets not forget about this really weird and disturbing action that is being promoted by a news channel as a "love story"


Oh boy, did you read the comments on that video from Pakistanis?

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## Mirzali Khan

Ssan said:


> We can’t do it like Iran. Iran itself is an ethnic nationalist country at the root of it. The name itself means “Aryan” in Persian. Historically, the Safavid state converted what used to be a Sunni country to Shia’ism and then promoted a version of Shia theology called Usulism to control large swathes of shia population outside of Iran proper.
> 
> Our experiment is different, we have no single overwhelming ethnicity, but we do have an idea of islamic democracy where we can try to celebrate everyone’s differences while granting everyone equal rights under the umbrella of an islamic civil state. If we do this, we would become truly exceptional.



We are similar to Iran in terms of ethnic diversity they just know how to deal with insurgencies and know how to use Islam as a glue but not as a way to erase others identity.



Faqirze said:


> Oh boy, did you read the comments on that video?



Turkish people are rightfully angry.


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## Imad.Khan

MultaniGuy said:


> Who told you this crap?



I hate the word Pathan, its a derogatory word. "Pat" means to take and "Han" comes from Khan and it was labelled to people that raided from the mountains and would take everything. Basically it is meant to mean a Barbarian.


Faqirze said:


> Hes Pashtun the same way Imran Khan claims Pashtun ethnicity because his great-great-great grandfather had Pashtun blood or something



Well Imran Khan has never claimed himself to be a Pukhtoon, but he is from the Niazi tribe.


MultaniGuy said:


> I do not believe in nonsense like Pushtunwali.



Pukhtunwali is a code by which Pukhtoons live, if you don't believe in it then you are not a Pukhtoon. Read up on it before claiming it nonsense.

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## Mirzali Khan

Imad.Khan said:


> I hate the word Pathan, its a derogatory word. "Pat" means to take and "Han" comes from Khan and it was labelled to people that raided from the mountains and would take everything. Basically it is meant to mean a Barbarian.



And in Pashto no one says "Za Pathan yam" its either "Za Pashtun yam" or "Za Pakhtoon yam" based on what dialect you speak.



Imad.Khan said:


> Well Imran Khan has never claimed himself to be a Pukhtoon, but he is from the Niazi tribe.



He has stood up for us countless times too. He even visited Waziristan in the 90's and they welcomed him with open arms.

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## Imad.Khan

jus_chillin said:


> We are similar to Iran in terms of ethnic diversity they just know how to deal with insurgencies and know how to use Islam as a glue but not as a way to erase others identity.



I read a very fascinating research piece recently. Pukhtoons are the closest to Tajiks in terms of genetics.

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## Mirzali Khan

Imad.Khan said:


> Pukhtunwali is a code by which Pukhtoons live, if you don't believe in it then you are not a Pukhtoon. Read up on it before claiming it nonsense.



He isn't Pashtun though, thats the thing   

Claims to be "pAtHaN" through his mom, says Pashto is useless language, and calls Pashtunwali bullcrap

Just a guy with an inferiority complex.



Imad.Khan said:


> I read a very fascinating research piece recently. Pukhtoons are the closest to Tajiks in terms of genetics.



Some say Yousafzai have dardic roots. Its really interesting how there's multiple theories of Pashtun origin.


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## Imad.Khan

jus_chillin said:


> He isn't Pashtun though, thats the thing
> 
> Claims to be "pAtHaN" through his mom, says Pashto is useless language, and calls Pashtunwali bullcrap
> 
> Just a guy with an inferiority complex.
> 
> 
> 
> Some say Yousafzai have dardic roots. Its really interesting how there's multiple theories of Pashtun origin.



I was just watching a video from another thread on how Pukhtoons are Jews

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## Mirzali Khan

Imad.Khan said:


> I was just watching a video from another thread on how Pukhtoons are Jews



😂 😂 😂


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## PakAlp

313ghazi said:


> I think you people read far too much into non issues. A handful of people tweet something and we become besties4eva. The next day a handful of people tweet something and we become frenemies.
> 
> Chill.
> 
> There is plurality of opinion amongst countries, including our own. Opinions shift with time and alter with events. It's no big deal either way.
> 
> Ultimately relations between people are built on shared interests followed by shared values as a distant second.
> 
> If you don't present yourself as an asshole and are tolerant of what other people think even if you disagree with them - you'll be fine and so will your relations with people.


All the Turks I've met, In Europe or in the middleeast have respect for Pakistan. One Turk in Masjid Nabawi mentioned to me that Pakistan and Turkey is one. But these are all religious Turks.

The secular ones love the west and want to be like them but that is non of our business. If Pakistanis are going to mess around in their country then they deserve to be treated like shit. Its simple change your ways and act sensible. The secular Pakistanis are also the same.

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## LeGenD

Brothers, 

Please show some tolerance. If you notice False information then correct it. 

If an argument becomes unproductive due to stubborness then tag me.

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## lastofthepatriots

jus_chillin said:


> The world is a crazy place, I used to get called "Gul Khan" by Afghans and now my fellow Pakistanis think I am some hidden Indo-Afghan terrorist sympathizer 😂
> 
> 
> 
> He is not Pashtun LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> In Pashtunwali your tribe comes from your dad's side not your mom's side and you aren't seen as a real Pashtun if you can't speak Pashto as @TNT said.
> 
> He calls Pashto a useless language but desperately tries to cling to the "pAtHaN" label.
> 
> Extreme inferiority complex.



You are wrong. 

Pashtun is a state of mind. Everything else comes after.

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## akramishaqkhan

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> So Filipinos and indians living in the UK who call themselves english are now english people?...............


No my point is someone else in this case the guy who is saying he does not believe in پښتونولي , I am saying let him say what he wants. It should not change what we believe in our hearts. 
Also پښتونولي is different for different people. For some it is a stronger code of belief. For some of the more remote tribes that operate on tribal code - it is very strong, for the urbanized Pakhtuns it is not, but to say that "Pushtunwali" is useless or something not important is to deny the code of tribals and also speaks to a lack of historical knowledge. So my guidance to my brother is to let the fellow who does not believe in پښتونولي believe what he wants. To each his own, and no point in arguing. 
I think you clearly missed the point I was trying to make.

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## Mirzali Khan

PakAlp said:


> If Pakistanis are going to mess around in their country then they deserve to be treated like shit. Its simple change your ways and act sensible.



Exactly.


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## lastofthepatriots

jus_chillin said:


> Exactly.



Yeah but if the roles were reversed, Pakistanis would accommodate the Turks by taking them to local whore houses.

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## Mirzali Khan

lastofthepatriots said:


> Yeah but if the roles were reversed, Pakistanis would accommodate the Turks by taking them to local whore houses.



Sexual Harassment is a huge issue in Pakistan either way. If some pendus think recording women in public is fine and pulling stuff like this:







Then Turks have a right to be angry.


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## Ssan

Also people don’t realize this but Ataturk’s Turkey is not as secularist as one would think. For one thing, one of Atatuks policies was Sunnism, that sunnism would be adapted as main religion and would be supported by state - diyanet I believe. It’s the secularists after him that promoted anti religion- people like Ismet Inonu.


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## lastofthepatriots

jus_chillin said:


> Sexual Harassment is a huge issue in Pakistan either way. If some pendus think recording women in public is fine and pulling stuff like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then Turks have a right to be angry.



You keep posting video of this poor guy. If amir Liaquat is living the dream then stop hating this ghareeb.


Also I am paindu and if you try harassing a woman in the village, be prepared to get your shit stomped out. 

It’s mostly big city folk from Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Peshawar that do these kinds of things.

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## Mirzali Khan

lastofthepatriots said:


> You keep posting video of this poor guy. If amir Liaquat is living the dream then stop hating this ghareeb.



LMAOOO. She's like 13. If we don't call this out then obviously people are going to get mad when they see stuff like that.


----------



## Bleek

jus_chillin said:


> No such thing as frontier. Its called KPK.
> 
> People in KPK and northern Balochistan speak Pashto as their mother language. I have never insulted anyone's heritage or language but people are more mad at me than him. Pakistan ki aasliyat.
> 
> @Sainthood 101 @PakSarZameen47 @Bleek @PAKISTANFOREVER
> 
> The fact no one is condemning his behavior and remarks proves I am right. Pakistani identity just wants to erase native culture and languages. Its a scam.


Bro I wasn't even online

I also tagged you in a post where my opinion was clearly the opposite to that


----------



## Ssan

jus_chillin said:


> We are similar to Iran in terms of ethnic diversity they just know how to deal with insurgencies and know how to use Islam as a glue but not as a way to erase others identity


Not true. They are an ethnic state. We cannot be. And should not be. Even a multi-ethnic state.


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## akramishaqkhan

MultaniGuy said:


> Exactly this @jus_chillin member is a moron.
> 
> Pashto is a language hardly anyone can speak in Pakistan.
> 
> It is Urdu and English that truly matters.


Very disappointing what you are saying. I hope you mean that it is important to focus on the things that unite us, rather than divide us, not that some of the parts that make us the whole is not important. And please go easy on the invectives against another member. You are better than that. 

Pashto is spoken by a sizeable portion of Pakistanis. Even many not Pakhtuns speak pushto. 
All regional languages are beautiful, and if you love your country you'll love every part of it. 
For me the line of importance is simple: Allah (Humanity), Country, Family, Tribe, Ethnicity.

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## lastofthepatriots

jus_chillin said:


> LMAOOO. She's like 13. If we don't call this out then obviously people are going to get mad when they see stuff like that.


Damn he beat Liaquat by 2 years.

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## PakFactor

Faqirze said:


> That must mean you are doing something right
> 
> Oh boy, did you read the comments on that video from Pakistanis?



Here we go again --- 1st we had to hear Indians bitching about us stealing and marrying there females and now the Turks.
It's hard being a Pakistani, you do a halal action you get bitched at.


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## Ssan

Any identity of Pakistan that cannot reconcile why Allama Iqbal invited Leopold Weiss (an Austrian Jew by birth who converted to Islam later) to represent us at the UN should not be considered seriously.


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## Maula Jatt

lastofthepatriots said:


> Damn he beat Liaquat by 2 years.


anyone knows that his new wife and he had a falling
barely after 2-3 months- she is looking for a divorce and going to different shows talking about abuse
wtf


----------



## Bleek

jus_chillin said:


> You still haven't answered my question, how come Pakistanis came name more East Punjabi singers than Pakistani Pashto singers? How come Pakistani diapsora have no idea about the other provinces but somehow we are all "one".


Because they speak the same language 

An average Punjabi cannot even speak Pashto, so I don't know they would listen to the music or know the singers.

Plus I don't think they would want to, because the Afghan brethren are going to go crazy on the other side 😭😭


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## lastofthepatriots

PakFactor said:


> Here we go again --- 1st we had to hear Indians bitching about us stealing and marrying there females and now the Turks.
> It's hard being a Pakistani, you do a halal action you get bitched at.



Brings a whole new meaning to ‘bachi paas gaye’ though, doesn’t it?

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## Ssan

Ssan said:


> Any identity of Pakistan that cannot reconcile why Allama Iqbal invited Leopold Weiss (an Austrian Jew by birth who converted to Islam later) to represent us at the UN should not be considered seriously.


Literally handed him the citizenship


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## lastofthepatriots

Bleek said:


> Because they speak the same language
> 
> An average Punjabi cannot even speak Pashto, so I don't know they would listen to the music or know the singers.
> 
> Plus I don't think they would want to, because the Afghan brethren are going to go crazy on the other side 😭😭



Punjabis are becoming adept at speaking pashto by haggling at lunda bazaars.

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## akramishaqkhan

PakSarZameen47 said:


> I think people feel that they way you're conveying your points are negative agasint Pak. It comes across as if you're trying to attack Pakistan (which I don't think you are) which is why they are mad. Misunderstanding I think


Guys you are getting just_chillin wrong - he is not anti-Pak to say the least. He is like many of us here a proud Pakistani of Pakhtun heritage. Everyone needs to take the temperature down.

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## Bleek

lastofthepatriots said:


> Punjabis are becoming adept at speaking pashto by haggling at lunda bazaars.


Pashtuns don't like others speaking Pashto at all, or getting involved in the culture, unless you live in that area. 

Tbh it's kinda begging it if you go out of your way to do all of that

Non-Pashtun speaking Pashto sounds rètardèd


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## Faqirze

PakFactor said:


> Here we go again --- 1st we had to hear Indians bitching about us stealing and marrying there females and now the Turks.
> It's hard being a Pakistani, *you do a halal action you get bitched at.*


She was 14


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## lastofthepatriots

akramishaqkhan said:


> Guys you are getting just_chillin wrong - he is not anti-Pak to say the least. He is like many of us here a proud Pakistani of Pakhtun heritage. Everyone needs to take the temperature down.



But we hate him for his white skin, his superior combat ability, and dancing in circles for hours without getting dizzy. It is what it is.

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## Bleek

Faqirze said:


> She was 14


And kidnapped I think

How in the world does he label this halal?

What the ****


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## lastofthepatriots

Bleek said:


> Pashtuns don't like others speaking Pashto at all, or getting involved in the culture, unless you live in that area.
> 
> Tbh it's kinda begging it if you go out of your way to do all of that
> 
> Non-Pashtun speaking Pashto sounds rètardèd



That’s a retarded statement as I know punjabis that can speak better pashto in Peshawar than overseas pashtuns.

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## PakAlp

jus_chillin said:


> Exactly.


This applies to all countries. The people will get upset if you do stupid things or harm its citizens. I am not sure why some PDF members are trying to light fire to the situation. In AJK some people from Abbtobad came and raped a minor, they were arrested but massive protests took place against outsiders coming and perving on local school girls. I dont blame them. We cannot stop this except give justice to the victims, the people will get upset and feel the pain.

In Pakistan Urdu should be the National language but its also beautiful to have regional languages. We use Urdu to communicate with others but it doesn't mean we try to destroy local languages. People use negativity in all situations.

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## akramishaqkhan

People need to realize that the Punjabi-Pakhtun linkages in the form of migrations, and settlement (in Punjab), inter-marriages, economic links and associations is a tie that binds us into the Country of Pakistan. A break in this tie, will be catastrophic to Pakistan and something our enemies have been trying for years. Dont fall for this trap on both sides.

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## Bleek

lastofthepatriots said:


> That’s a retarded statement as I know punjabis that can speak better pashto in Peshawar than overseas pashtuns.


"Unless you live in that area"

I added that specifically for this 😬


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## lastofthepatriots

PakAlp said:


> This applies to all countries. The people will get upset if you do stupid things or harm its citizens. I am not sure why some PDF members are trying to light fire to the situation. In AJK some people from Abbtobad came and raped a minor, they were arrested but massive protests took place against outsiders coming and perving on local school girls. I dont blame them. We cannot stop this except give justice to the victims, the people will get upset and feel the pain.
> 
> In Pakistan Urdu should be the National language but its also beautiful to have regional languages. We use Urdu to communicate with others but it doesn't mean we try to destroy local languages. People use negativity in all situations.



All languages other than English or Chinese are useless unless used for literary purposes. Please tell me the word for computer in punjabi, pashto, Urdu.

It’s compootaar. 



Bleek said:


> "Unless you live in that area"
> 
> I added that specifically for this 😬



People that are traders that come from Punjab can speak pashto pretty well too. And Pashtuns definitely speak punjabi or try to when they come to punjab.

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## PakAlp

If Pakistanis want Turkish people to visit their country to increase people to people contact then improve your security, government, tourism. Nobody will visit when security threats are high. Pakistan needs to get its house in order, promote culture, and history. We ourselves don't bother with it but then dreaming of others to come. Turkey is full of its history, they preserve their culture, Art and history.



lastofthepatriots said:


> All languages other than English or Chinese are useless unless used for literary purposes. Please tell me the word for computer in punjabi, pashto, Urdu.
> 
> It’s compootaar.
> 
> 
> 
> People that are traders that come from Punjab can speak pashto pretty well too. And Pashtuns definitely speak punjabi or try to when they come to punjab.


Where is Pakistan Urdu language department? Why not translate English words to Urdu. When everyone is working for safarish then this is what happens.

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## PakAlp

It seems online Pakistanis are feeling inferior to others. At first they were unsettled by Indian comments, then Bangalis, then Iranian, Afghan and now Turkish lol. I ate food with Turkish brothers, attended gatherings in their homes, Turkish brothers held my feet and legs in Madina when I struggled to get off this cliff. I didn't see any hatred. Why not become people of respect, values and role model for others. They will respect you don't worry 😉


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## Mirzali Khan

PakFactor said:


> Here we go again --- 1st we had to hear Indians bitching about us stealing and marrying there females and now the Turks.
> It's hard being a Pakistani, you do a halal action you get bitched at.



That girl is 13 and the guy is around 26. Thats just weird.


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## lastofthepatriots

PakAlp said:


> If Pakistanis want Turkish people to visit their country to increase people to people contact then improve your security, government, tourism. Nobody will visit when security threats are high. Pakistan needs to get its house in order, promote culture, and history. We ourselves don't bother with it but then dreaming of others to come. Turkey is full of its history, they preserve their culture, Art and history.
> 
> 
> Where is Pakistan Urdu language department? Why not translate English words to Urdu. When everyone is working for safarish then this is what happens.



The world has moved on. It’s too late. It’s better to develop from an existing prototype than starting from scratch.


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## Mirzali Khan

Bleek said:


> Because they speak the same language
> 
> An average Punjabi cannot even speak Pashto, so I don't know they would listen to the music or know the singers.
> 
> Plus I don't think they would want to, because the Afghan brethren are going to go crazy on the other side 😭😭



Then it disproves the notion Pakistanis are "one".



Bleek said:


> Plus I don't think they would want to, because the Afghan brethren are going to go crazy on the other side



Who cares what they say? They are irrelevant.


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## PakAlp

jus_chillin said:


> Sexual Harassment is a huge issue in Pakistan either way. If some pendus think recording women in public is fine and pulling stuff like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then Turks have a right to be angry.


She looks really young. I dont blame them for being peed off. Turkish are proud people, secular or not.


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## Mirzali Khan

akramishaqkhan said:


> Guys you are getting just_chillin wrong - he is not anti-Pak to say the least. He is like many of us here a proud Pakistani of Pakhtun heritage. Everyone needs to take the temperature down.



Rora you know that I am from Quetta and I have spoken extensively to people and diaspora from my area, ex-FATA, and rest of Balochistan.

There is a quiet attitude and some views that regard that the Pakistani mainstream tends to leave us out of the conversations. Couple this with some Pakistani diaspora frankly not knowing anything about certain provinces along with some Pashtun/Baloch diaspora kids not being able to understand or speak Urdu. You get a rift that is getting bigger post Imran Khan removal. I mean seriously, most Pakistani kids I met have no idea about kuchi dresses, peran tumban, or attan.

I want to point out this rift and this quiet resentment so at least we can have solution. Unfortunately, I think we are politically and intellectually immature so that I get called Indian or some hidden Afghan refugee, when I am trying to point out a solution and this problem.

Dera Manana.



PakAlp said:


> She looks really young. I dont blame them for being peed off. Turkish are proud people, secular or not.



They saying the Turkish news reported her as missing or kidnapped which makes it even more weird.

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## Bleek

jus_chillin said:


> Then it disproves the notion Pakistanis are "one".


One in what sense? I don't think anyone can deny the ethnic, linguistic, cultural divide

A Punjabi will obviously listen to Punjabi music 

There's a language barrier which makes it much harder to listen to Pashto music because they'll have know clue what is being said

Plus telling a Punjabi not to listen to Punjabi music orginating from India or not to interact with them is like telling a Pashtun not to do the same with Afghan Pashtuns 

It's not realistic


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## HydraChess

PakistaniJunior said:


> After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.
> 
> *Turkish Situation:*
> 
> With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.
> 
> The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.
> 
> The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.
> 
> These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.
> 
> Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.
> 
> *Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:*
> 
> Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.
> 
> Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?
> 
> We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.
> 
> All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.
> 
> *My Opinion:*
> 
> I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.
> 
> 
> 
> These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I



This is not the first discussion I have seen about Pakistani identity and I am sure it will not be the last. I have one question to ask...

*For Pakistani Identity, Is it NOT enough to be a Pakistani alone ie someone who comes from the land of Pakistan?*

May be you want to include Islamic identity in it but since your very flag has a narrow white band, I guess, being Pakistani should be enough. I know it works for most of the world, why will it not work for you? Being Indian works for a vast majority of Indians (except may be Kashmiri, some stupid Periyaar types, some north eastern tribes or so) and we are much more divided than you can ever hope to be.

Whats with this identity crisis? Teenagers face this, not nations.


----------



## Mirzali Khan

Bleek said:


> Pashtuns don't like others speaking Pashto at all, or getting involved in the culture, unless you live in that area.
> 
> Tbh it's kinda begging it if you go out of your way to do all of that
> 
> Non-Pashtun speaking Pashto sounds rètardèd



No wtf

Tons of Baloch people know Pashto and no one has problems with them.

Where do you get this info from?



Bleek said:


> Tbh it's kinda begging it if you go out of your way to do all of that
> 
> Non-Pashtun speaking Pashto sounds rètardèd



Knowing simple phrases and being aware of other people's cultures isn't "begging"

Don't listen to Afghans or insular Pak-Pashtuns



lastofthepatriots said:


> That’s a retarded statement as I know punjabis that can speak better pashto in Peshawar than overseas pashtuns.



Bro if you go to some parts of Balochistan some Baloch people are fully fluent in Pashto.



akramishaqkhan said:


> People need to realize that the Punjabi-Pakhtun linkages in the form of migrations, and settlement (in Punjab), inter-marriages, economic links and associations is a tie that binds us into the Country of Pakistan. A break in this tie, will be catastrophic to Pakistan and something our enemies have been trying for years. Dont fall for this trap on both sides.



We need to expand this tie to the Sindhis and Baloch too.


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## Bleek

HydraChess said:


> *For Pakistani Identity, Is it NOT enough to be a Pakistani alone ie someone who comes from the land of Pakistan?*


To an extent yeah, but a lot of people feel disconnected from each other as people or from the framework of the state.



jus_chillin said:


> No wtf
> 
> Tons of Baloch people know Pashto and no one has problems with them.
> 
> Where do you get this info from?
> 
> 
> 
> Knowing simple phrases and being aware of other people's cultures isn't "begging"
> 
> Don't listen to Afghans or insular Pak-Pashtuns
> 
> 
> 
> Bro if you go to some parts of Balochistan some Baloch people are fully fluent in Pashto.
> 
> 
> 
> We need to expand this tie to the Sindhis and Baloch too.


Baloch living where though? In Pashtun dominated areas?

And I said that because a non-Pashtun spreaking Pashto will have a weird unnatural accent.

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## Mirzali Khan

Bleek said:


> Baloch living where though? In Pashtun dominated areas?















Bleek said:


> One in what sense? I don't think anyone can deny the ethnic, linguistic, cultural divide
> 
> A Punjabi will obviously listen to Punjabi music
> 
> There's a language barrier which makes it much harder to listen to Pashto music because they'll have know clue what is being said
> 
> Plus telling a Punjabi not to listen to Punjabi music orginating from India or not to interact with them is like telling a Pashtun not to do the same with Afghan Pashtuns
> 
> It's not realistic



Which is why big tent is needed.

Most Punjabis live in Pakistan

Most Pashtuns live in Pakistan

Most Dards live in Pakistan

Most Sindhis live in Pakistan

Most Baloch live in Pakistan


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## Kağan Zafer

PakAlp said:


> The secular ones love the west and want to be like them but that is non of our business. If Pakistanis are going to mess around in their country then they deserve to be treated like shit. Its simple change your ways and act sensible. The secular Pakistanis are also the same.



I am a secular Turkish gay man and I still wouldn't describe myself as a person who 'loves' 'the West'. In fact, I'm white like a Northern European. My skin is not just fair, I'm talking actual white Caucasian male, yet, I'd never in a million years count myself European. Atatürk's Europe is dead, don't forget this. There are many Kemalist groups who're opposing Turkey's EU membership. 

Why would I squeeze my identity into one category? I have European and Asian features. I can talk to an Uighur from East Turkistan in China or debate the future of Europe with a Scottish dude. 

You're underestimating the shared foundation of religious and secular camps in Turkey. Yes, there's a significant difference between the two groups but certain things are untouchable in our society. I know many religous groups who would select Japan over Saudi Arabia in a heartbeat. I can also show you secular people in Turkey who're prefering a Chinese-style, anti-liberal role model for our society. 

The truth is that Turkey is changing and evolving rapidly. It's different to what it was just 20 years ago.

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## Maula Jatt

jus_chillin said:


> Which is why big tent is needed.
> 
> *Most Punjabis live in Pakistan
> 
> Most Pashtuns live in Pakistan
> 
> Most Dards live in Pakistan
> 
> Most Sindhis live in Pakistan
> 
> Most Baloch live in Pakistan*


Historically always carried the culture but now fell WAY!!! behind
Afghanistan is the land of Pashtun
Weird White people who just happen to live in Pakistan - got nothing to do with it ( Not saying that this is my opinion but they are still treated like a weird outlier rather an actual part of our country- even though 10% of our population is the other section which is mostly Dard that's more than our Urdu speaking communities settled in Pakistan- who played a critical role in our history)
Alright- they are sorted
Like Punjab- Iran side dominates the culture ,cinema etc

We are clearly failing to use our advantages...


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Ssan said:


> If as some of our posters are saying, we turn towards secularism, there is nothing special about Pakistan and the Pakistani nation will disintegrate into 5 separate ethnic nations. Not to speak about the Indian immigrants. Of which Jinnah belonged. The biggest Achilles heal for us has been our demographic make up- pre-71, when the bengalis decided to become secular, they could simply vote for bengalism and where did that leave the rest of west Pakistan. Now, imagine if Punjab openly decides to just vote on ethnicity or secular identity, where will that leave the rest of us.





Ssan said:


> _So no, the goal is not to be some insular ethnic nationalist country based on some indus cradle identity. The only reason we have held together is because of our religious (Islamic) identity. We should espouse to be more than this too. We can be
> what Prussia was for the hundreds of small Germanic states that it absorbed if we become strong and independent._



No one is asking Pakistan to become a secular state. However, it must be highlighted that religion as the *sole* pillar of an identity is not feasible, especially in these times.

What I'm saying is not a new idea, in fact, it predates the notion of Pakistan as some state created solely for religion and only having religion as it's unifying factor.

What Pakistanis deliberately are not taught is that the idea of Pakistan far predates the All-India Muslim League (whom initially ridiculed the concept) and instead has it's origins in the student organizations of Bazm-i-Shibli (founded in 1915) and later the Pakistan National Liberation Movement (1930) founded by 4 Punjabi and Pashtun students headed by Choudary Rehmat Ali, in fact, if Rehmat Ali's claim that his ideas were passed onto him by his father is to be believed, then the idea of Pakistan may have been floating around as early as the 1880's, mere decades after the British conquest of modern-day Pakistan.

These groups were created as a pushback to what they perceived as a British attempt to "Indianize" their distinct 'nations':

----

_ "India, constituted as it is at the present moment, is not the name of one single country; nor the home of one single nation. It is, in fact, the designation of a State created by the British for the first time in history. It includes peoples who have never previously formed part of the Indian nation at any period of its history, but who have, on the contrary, from the dawn of history till the advent of the British, possessed and retained distinct nationalities of their own". ~ Now or Never, 1933

"The congress had designated all British possessions in South Asia as India denied to the non Indian nations the right to their own nationhood, and, by making pretentious claims, stamped Indian nationality on the peoples of this area." ~ "What does the Pakistan National Movement Stand For?" Pamphlet, 1930's

"That is, the statement which was to save us from national self-destruction on the altar of "Indians", safeguard our right to distinct national existence, mark the appearance of a de-Indianized Muslim country of nearly 35 million people, protect the heritage of the first three centuries of our history, inflict the first decisive defeat on the forces of "Indianism", and last, but by no means least, alter forever the course of the Millat, of Dinia (South Asia), and, I dare say, of Asia." ~ Ch, Millet and the Mission, 1930's

This mistake has certainly cost us dear. It has compromised our nationality and labelled us all as "Indian". I say this, not because there is anything wrong with the word "India" which, in itself, is perhaps as respectable as any other name; but because we are not "Indian" and, therefore, for us to style ourselves or our institutions "Indian", is nothing but an act of renegation. ~ Ch, The Menace of Indianism, 1930's

----_

In response, they sought the independence of their 'homeland': Pakistan, a federation of 5 regions that were distinct from India but close enough to each other to constitute a single nation.

An important note here is that they saw religion as one of three (not the sole) grounds for the basis of the independence of Pakistan:

_"I am enclosing herewith an appeal on behalf of the thirty million Muslims of PAKISTAN, who live in the five Northern Units of India--Punjab, North-West Frontier (Afghan) Province, Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan. It embodies their demand for the recognition of their national status, as distinct from the other inhabitants of India, by the grant to Pakistan of a separate Federal Constitution on *religious*, *social* and *historical* grounds." ~ Pakistan Declaration, 1933_

In their literature, they saw Pakistan as a nation that had always existed, but had went through different names in history. They also highlighted Pakistan's connection to it's ancient heritage, a notion that many members here mock. This is remarkable considering that this was from the early 1900's.

_"It will therefore be seen that Pakistan is one of the most ancient and illustrious countries of the Orient. Not only that. It is the only nation in the world which in the antiquity of its legend and lore, as in the character of its history and hopes, compares with Iraq and Egypt -the countries which are known as the cradle of the achievements of Mankind." ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"It must be remembered that, in different periods of its life, Pakistan has had different names -names whose very variety epitomizes its past history, just as its present name symbolizes its present position, its future prospects, and its ultimate destiny in the world" ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"The Mihran, also known as the Indus, is the longest, the greatest, and the most truly national river of Pakistan, and its course lies through most of the provinces of the country" ~ Ch, Physical Features

"In their origin the Paks belong to the stock from which sprang those gifted tribes of the pre-historic times who created and developed the oldest civilization of the Mihran Valley and, for that matter, of the world." Ch, Ethnical Stocks

"Pakistan, as already mentioned, was one of the three civilized regions of the globe~the other two being Iraq and Egypt. This fact stands out prominently against the dim hack-ground of that still ill-defined period in the growth of the human race. It shows that, in pre-history, Pakistan was one of the lands where civilization was born; where Man made his first attempts at courting Nature for his subsistence; and where he achieved his first successes in his elemental struggle for life." ~ Ch, National Story_

That is not to say that they were not steeped in religious nationalism like other groups of their time. For example, they demanded independence for Indian and Bengali Muslims, but in their own separate nations (Osmanistan and Bangistan) instead of having them migrate to Pakistan, the movement also began embracing a more Pan-Islamic ideology towards the end.

The reason why we're not taught about them is because they became fierce opponents of the All-India Muslim League whom they accused of hijacking the Pakistan Movement. They claimed that true independence was not achieved and that they would fight on. This led to an eventual crackdown where the PNLM was axed and its members forced into exile, along with the seizure of their assets. All footprints of the movement was scrubbed and their leader; Rehmat Ali would die in exile, penniless.

@Indus Pakistan @Sainthood 101 @jus_chillin

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## PakFactor

Faqirze said:


> She was 14



Yes she was but seems parents are ok with it cause I’ve not seen an international scandal between both nations.



Bleek said:


> And kidnapped I think
> 
> How in the world does he label this halal?
> 
> What the ****



I don’t see any news she was kidnapped. If she was and the Turks asked I’m sure our nation would’ve bent both knees and returned her, at the moment we are experts at bending the knees face down a$$ up on the international stage.

And no I’m not saying marrying under age is acceptable or anything.


----------



## Ssan

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> No one is asking Pakistan to become a secular state. However, it must be highlighted that religion as the *sole* pillar of an identity is not feasible, especially in these times.
> 
> What I'm saying is not a new idea, in fact, it predates the notion of Pakistan as some state created solely for religion and only having religion as it's unifying factor.
> 
> What Pakistanis deliberately are not taught is that the idea of Pakistan far predates the All-India Muslim League (whom initially ridiculed the concept) and instead has it's origins in the student organizations of Bazm-i-Shibli (founded in 1915) and later the Pakistan National Liberation Movement (1930) founded by 4 Punjabi and Pashtun students headed by Choudary Rehmat Ali, in fact, if Rehmat Ali's claim that his ideas were passed onto him by his father is to be believed, then the idea of Pakistan may have been floating around as early as the 1880's, mere decades after the British conquest of modern-day Pakistan.
> 
> These groups were created as a pushback to what they perceived as a British attempt to "Indianize" their distinct 'nations':
> 
> ----
> 
> _ "India, constituted as it is at the present moment, is not the name of one single country; nor the home of one single nation. It is, in fact, the designation of a State created by the British for the first time in history. It includes peoples who have never previously formed part of the Indian nation at any period of its history, but who have, on the contrary, from the dawn of history till the advent of the British, possessed and retained distinct nationalities of their own". ~ Now or Never, 1933
> 
> "The congress had designated all British possessions in South Asia as India denied to the non Indian nations the right to their own nationhood, and, by making pretentious claims, stamped Indian nationality on the peoples of this area." ~ "What does the Pakistan National Movement Stand For?" Pamphlet, 1930's
> 
> "That is, the statement which was to save us from national self-destruction on the altar of "Indians", safeguard our right to distinct national existence, mark the appearance of a de-Indianized Muslim country of nearly 35 million people, protect the heritage of the first three centuries of our history, inflict the first decisive defeat on the forces of "Indianism", and last, but by no means least, alter forever the course of the Millat, of Dinia (South Asia), and, I dare say, of Asia." ~ Ch, Millet and the Mission, 1930's
> 
> This mistake has certainly cost us dear. It has compromised our nationality and labelled us all as "Indian". I say this, not because there is anything wrong with the word "India" which, in itself, is perhaps as respectable as any other name; but because we are not "Indian" and, therefore, for us to style ourselves or our institutions "Indian", is nothing but an act of renegation. ~ Ch, The Menace of Indianism, 1930's
> 
> ----_
> 
> In response, they sought the independence of their 'homeland': Pakistan, a federation of 5 regions that were distinct from India but close enough to each other to constitute a single nation.
> 
> An important note here is that they saw religion as one of three (not the sole) grounds for the basis of the independence of Pakistan:
> 
> _"I am enclosing herewith an appeal on behalf of the thirty million Muslims of PAKISTAN, who live in the five Northern Units of India--Punjab, North-West Frontier (Afghan) Province, Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan. It embodies their demand for the recognition of their national status, as distinct from the other inhabitants of India, by the grant to Pakistan of a separate Federal Constitution on *religious*, *social* and *historical* grounds." ~ Pakistan Declaration, 1933_
> 
> In their literature, they saw Pakistan as a nation that had always existed, but had went through different names in history. They also highlighted Pakistan's connection to it's ancient heritage, a notion that many members here mock. This is remarkable considering that this was from the early 1900's.
> 
> _"It will therefore be seen that Pakistan is one of the most ancient and illustrious countries of the Orient. Not only that. It is the only nation in the world which in the antiquity of its legend and lore, as in the character of its history and hopes, compares with Iraq and Egypt -the countries which are known as the cradle of the achievements of Mankind." ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation
> 
> "It must be remembered that, in different periods of its life, Pakistan has had different names -names whose very variety epitomizes its past history, just as its present name symbolizes its present position, its future prospects, and its ultimate destiny in the world" ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation
> 
> "The Mihran, also known as the Indus, is the longest, the greatest, and the most truly national river of Pakistan, and its course lies through most of the provinces of the country" ~ Ch, Physical Features
> 
> "In their origin the Paks belong to the stock from which sprang those gifted tribes of the pre-historic times who created and developed the oldest civilization of the Mihran Valley and, for that matter, of the world." Ch, Ethnical Stocks
> 
> "Pakistan, as already mentioned, was one of the three civilized regions of the globe~the other two being Iraq and Egypt. This fact stands out prominently against the dim hack-ground of that still ill-defined period in the growth of the human race. It shows that, in pre-history, Pakistan was one of the lands where civilization was born; where Man made his first attempts at courting Nature for his subsistence; and where he achieved his first successes in his elemental struggle for life." ~ Ch, National Story_
> 
> That is not to say that they were not steeped in religious nationalism like other groups of their time. For example, they demanded independence for Indian and Bengali Muslims, but in their own separate nations (Osmanistan and Bangistan) instead of having them migrate to Pakistan, the movement also began embracing a more Pan-Islamic ideology towards the end.
> 
> The reason why we're not taught about them is because they became fierce opponents of the All-India Muslim League whom they accused of hijacking the Pakistan Movement. They claimed that true independence was not achieved and that they would fight on. This led to an eventual crackdown where the PNLM was axed and its members forced into exile, along with the seizure of their assets. All footprints of the movement was scrubbed and their leader; Rehmat Ali would die in exile, penniless.
> 
> @Indus Pakistan @Sainthood 101 @jus_chillin


I do not know about Rehmat Ali. I do know that the Pakistan that was formed was formed on very grand ideas of Islamic democracy- if it did not, it would have never accepted the territory of east bengal or the millions of immigrants. How can one justify Allama Iqbal himself inviting Leopold Weiss to Pakistan to represent Pakistan if not in service of a grand idea of what a modern Muslims state could look like.

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## Maula Jatt

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> No one is asking Pakistan to become a secular state. However, it must be highlighted that religion as the *sole* pillar of an identity is not feasible, especially in these times.
> 
> What I'm saying is not a new idea, in fact, it predates the notion of Pakistan as some state created solely for religion and only having religion as it's unifying factor.
> 
> What Pakistanis deliberately are not taught is that the idea of Pakistan far predates the All-India Muslim League (whom initially ridiculed the concept) and instead has it's origins in the student organizations of Bazm-i-Shibli (founded in 1915) and later the Pakistan National Liberation Movement (1930) founded by 4 Punjabi and Pashtun students headed by Choudary Rehmat Ali, in fact, if Rehmat Ali's claim that his ideas were passed onto him by his father is to be believed, then the idea of Pakistan may have been floating around as early as the 1880's, mere decades after the British conquest of modern-day Pakistan.
> 
> These groups were created as a pushback to what they perceived as a British attempt to "Indianize" their distinct 'nations':
> 
> ----
> 
> _ "India, constituted as it is at the present moment, is not the name of one single country; nor the home of one single nation. It is, in fact, the designation of a State created by the British for the first time in history. It includes peoples who have never previously formed part of the Indian nation at any period of its history, but who have, on the contrary, from the dawn of history till the advent of the British, possessed and retained distinct nationalities of their own". ~ Now or Never, 1933
> 
> "The congress had designated all British possessions in South Asia as India denied to the non Indian nations the right to their own nationhood, and, by making pretentious claims, stamped Indian nationality on the peoples of this area." ~ "What does the Pakistan National Movement Stand For?" Pamphlet, 1930's
> 
> "That is, the statement which was to save us from national self-destruction on the altar of "Indians", safeguard our right to distinct national existence, mark the appearance of a de-Indianized Muslim country of nearly 35 million people, protect the heritage of the first three centuries of our history, inflict the first decisive defeat on the forces of "Indianism", and last, but by no means least, alter forever the course of the Millat, of Dinia (South Asia), and, I dare say, of Asia." ~ Ch, Millet and the Mission, 1930's
> 
> This mistake has certainly cost us dear. It has compromised our nationality and labelled us all as "Indian". I say this, not because there is anything wrong with the word "India" which, in itself, is perhaps as respectable as any other name; but because we are not "Indian" and, therefore, for us to style ourselves or our institutions "Indian", is nothing but an act of renegation. ~ Ch, The Menace of Indianism, 1930's
> 
> ----_
> 
> In response, they sought the independence of their 'homeland': Pakistan, a federation of 5 regions that were distinct from India but close enough to each other to constitute a single nation.
> 
> An important note here is that they saw religion as one of three (not the sole) grounds for the basis of the independence of Pakistan:
> 
> _"I am enclosing herewith an appeal on behalf of the thirty million Muslims of PAKISTAN, who live in the five Northern Units of India--Punjab, North-West Frontier (Afghan) Province, Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan. It embodies their demand for the recognition of their national status, as distinct from the other inhabitants of India, by the grant to Pakistan of a separate Federal Constitution on *religious*, *social* and *historical* grounds." ~ Pakistan Declaration, 1933_
> 
> In their literature, they saw Pakistan as a nation that had always existed, but had went through different names in history. They also highlighted Pakistan's connection to it's ancient heritage, a notion that many members here mock. This is remarkable considering that this was from the early 1900's.
> 
> _"It will therefore be seen that Pakistan is one of the most ancient and illustrious countries of the Orient. Not only that. It is the only nation in the world which in the antiquity of its legend and lore, as in the character of its history and hopes, compares with Iraq and Egypt -the countries which are known as the cradle of the achievements of Mankind." ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation
> 
> "It must be remembered that, in different periods of its life, Pakistan has had different names -names whose very variety epitomizes its past history, just as its present name symbolizes its present position, its future prospects, and its ultimate destiny in the world" ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation
> 
> "The Mihran, also known as the Indus, is the longest, the greatest, and the most truly national river of Pakistan, and its course lies through most of the provinces of the country" ~ Ch, Physical Features
> 
> "In their origin the Paks belong to the stock from which sprang those gifted tribes of the pre-historic times who created and developed the oldest civilization of the Mihran Valley and, for that matter, of the world." Ch, Ethnical Stocks
> 
> "Pakistan, as already mentioned, was one of the three civilized regions of the globe~the other two being Iraq and Egypt. This fact stands out prominently against the dim hack-ground of that still ill-defined period in the growth of the human race. It shows that, in pre-history, Pakistan was one of the lands where civilization was born; where Man made his first attempts at courting Nature for his subsistence; and where he achieved his first successes in his elemental struggle for life." ~ Ch, National Story_
> 
> That is not to say that they were not steeped in religious nationalism like other groups of their time. For example, they demanded independence for Indian and Bengali Muslims, but in their own separate nations (Osmanistan and Bangistan) instead of having them migrate to Pakistan,* the movement also began embracing a more Pan-Islamic ideology towards the end.*
> 
> The reason why we're not taught about them is because they became fierce opponents of the All-India Muslim League whom they accused of hijacking the Pakistan Movement. They claimed that true independence was not achieved and that they would fight on. This led to an eventual crackdown where the PNLM was axed and its members forced into exile, along with the seizure of their assets. All footprints of the movement was scrubbed and their leader; Rehmat Ali would die in exile, penniless.
> 
> @Indus Pakistan @Sainthood 101 @jus_chillin


to win Muslim votes from non Pakistani Muslims
they probably sold the idea to the public as more pan-Islamist compared to what it truly was at least in its earliest form
@Ssan

Maybe what he is saying, in the end, is - the Pakistan movement was hijacked midway by all-India movement which had a different objective than the Pakistan movement because they had to win votes to create Pakistan thus their campaign strategy changed - They were Islamists at heart but there was more to it than that


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## nope

reminds me of this

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## Stallion29

Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani. When you tell people you are pakistani you get labelled negatively. No reason trying to defend. Your prents motherland. Its a lost cause. There was some pride when imran khan was PM. Now its back to some demented creepy alcoholic uncle running the country. Pakistani allowed this to happen, let them suffer the consequences. I will sit back and watch the circus. Btw im an american pakistani- just embarrassed i have some genetic similarity to those people there.

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## PakistaniJunior

Stallion29 said:


> Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani. When you tell people you are pakistani you get labelled negatively. No reason trying to defend. Your prents motherland. Its a lost cause. There was some pride when imran khan was PM. Now its back to some demented creepy alcoholic uncle running the country. Pakistani allowed this to happen, let them suffer the consequences. I will sit back and watch the circus. Btw im an american pakistani- just embarrassed i have some genetic similarity to those people there.


Lol you have an inferiority complex. I would never denounce my Pakistani identity due to matters like this. People like you, who are so quick to disregard your entire heritage, never deserved it in the first place. So go on ahead with this stupidity, because people don't respect those who don't respect themselves anyway.

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## sparten

Bleek said:


> One amazing positive that has come out of this is that maybe Pakistanis can wake up from their delusions of the grandeur Pak-Turk relations and the supposed immense mutual love. As well as this delusion that Turkey is some Islamic utopia full of practicing Muslims.
> 
> It's as if people cannot differentiate between national allies, and people-people relationships.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure where these beliefs stemmed from and became so wide spread, perhaps it's the dramas on national television, or perhaps the political statements made.
> 
> But one thing is certain, there is something seriously wrong with the average Pakistani mindset, perhaps a sense of insecurity so ride off every other country, or perhaps an identity crisis.


Are you joking Eng;lishman?
Pakistani know full well what Turks are. Our admiration for Turkey isn't based on them being some "Islamic utopia"

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## Stallion29

PakistaniJunior said:


> Lol you have an inferiority complex. I would never denounce my Pakistani identity due to matters like this. People like you, who are so quick to disregard your entire heritage, never deserved it in the first place. So go on ahead with this stupidity, because people don't respect those who don't respect themselves anyway


It is a failed state. Thank god my parents left the country 50 years ago. You can be proud of your failed state. Literally every Pakistani youth is trying to escape the country. What are you proud of? If you are so proud stay in pakistan and build it up. Everyone know its the land of no opportunity. Problem is there is no opportunity due to massive corruption in every part of society. You had a chance for some self respect by having imran khan who was trying to make some changes but of course as he was removed the pakistani people watched it all happened for a couple bucks and started looking for handouts again. Look at bangladesh, that country has succeeded. The only thing that succeded in pakistan is zardari and sharrifs bank accounts. Lol

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## Maula Jatt

Stallion29 said:


> It is a failed state. Thank god my parents left the country 50 years ago.


Than what exactly are you doing on Pakistan defense forum? 
What's the point?

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## Stallion29

Sainthood 101 said:


> Than what exactly are you doing on Pakistan defense forum?
> What's the point?


Perplexed by how a country full of a relatively intellgient race can screw things up so badly. Its on its last leg, these past events in pakistan show you how easy it is to manipulate and control that country. Joined the forum because i was in disbelief and embarrassed for the pakistani people. Also makes me feel grateful that i am not in that country.

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## Bleek

Stallion29 said:


> It is a failed state. Thank god my parents left the country 50 years ago. You can be proud of your failed state. Literally every Pakistani youth is trying to escape the country. What are you proud of? If you are so proud stay in pakistan and build it up. Everyone know its the land of no opportunity. Problem is there is no opportunity due to massive corruption in every part of society. You had a chance for some self respect by having imran khan who was trying to make some changes but of course as he was removed the pakistani people watched it all happened for a couple bucks and started looking for handouts again. Look at bangladesh, that country has succeeded. The only thing that succeded in pakistan is zardari and sharrifs bank accounts. Lol


Harsh truth

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## PakistaniJunior

Stallion29 said:


> It is a failed state. Thank god my parents left the country 50 years ago. You can be proud of your failed state. Literally every Pakistani youth is trying to escape the country. What are you proud of? If you are so proud stay in pakistan and build it up. Everyone know its the land of no opportunity. Problem is there is no opportunity due to massive corruption in every part of society. You had a chance for some self respect by having imran khan who was trying to make some changes but of course as he was removed the pakistani people watched it all happened for a couple bucks and started looking for handouts again. Look at bangladesh, that country has succeeded. The only thing that succeded in pakistan is zardari and sharrifs bank accounts. Lol





Stallion29 said:


> Perplexed by how a country full of a relatively intellgient race can screw things up so badly. Its on its last leg, these past events in pakistan show you how easy it is to manipulate and control that country. Joined the forum because i was in disbelief and embarrassed for the pakistani people. Also makes me feel grateful that i am not in that country.



Since your grandparents had left the country 50 years ago, it is no wonder you are unable to connect nor understand your Pakistani Heritage, If you've still left any. It's better for a person like you, who's far removed from it, to not carry it anyway.

What connects me to my heritage is not the unstable and constantly changing politics of the country, but it is the land i was born in, all the places i've lived in, all the people i've met and got along with, and all those things unique to a Pakistani brought up, the culture and what not. It is in the tongue i speak, and perhaps even in my mannerisms.

You clearly don't have any of that and many others do, so there's no point in arguing about it. Just, Perhaps you shouldn't rub your inferiority complex onto other Pakistanis, to which, these things hold a sentimental value.

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## El Sidd

Stallion29 said:


> Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani.


Where were you born?


Stallion29 said:


> There was some pride when imran khan was PM.


Pride always leads to a fall. 


Stallion29 said:


> Btw im an american pakistani- just embarrassed i have some genetic similarity to those people there.


The term is Pakistani American not American Pakistani.


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## Stallion29

PakistaniJunior said:


> Since your grandparents had left the country 50 years ago, it is no wonder you are unable to connect nor understand your Pakistani Heritage, If you've still left any. It's better for a person like you, who's far removed from it, to not carry it anyway.
> 
> What connects me to my heritage is not the unstable and constantly changing politics of the country, but it is the land i was born in, all the places i've lived in, all the people i've met and got along with, and all those things unique to a Pakistani brought up, the culture and what not. It is in the tongue i speak, and perhaps even in my mannerisms.
> 
> You clearly don't have any of that and many others do, so there's no point in arguing about it. Just, Perhaps you shouldn't rub your inferiority complex onto other Pakistanis, to which, these things hold a sentimental value.


Thats great you can hold your sentimental value.. that wont get your results. Not sure where you are getting this inferiority complex stuff from. This is all the harsh truth which many pakistanis refuse to see. Its a sinking ship and no one to blame except for the greed of a select few and the complacency of the rest of the population. There was great potential. I am realist and buddy the house in burning down.



El Sidd said:


> Where were you born?
> 
> Pride always leads to a fall.
> 
> The term is Pakistani American not American Pakistani.


Born in 🇺🇸 
I can care less what you want to call it. Im american and parents are from pakistan. There.

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## El Sidd

Stallion29 said:


> Born in 🇺🇸
> I can care less what you want to call it. Im american and parents are from pakistan. There.



I guess you don't live in English speaking region of America.


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## lastofthepatriots

Stallion29 said:


> Thats great you can hold your sentimental value.. that wont get your results. Not sure where you are getting this inferiority complex stuff from. This is all the harsh truth which many pakistanis refuse to see. Its a sinking ship and no one to blame except for the greed of a select few and the complacency of the rest of the population. There was great potential. I am realist and buddy the house in burning down.
> 
> 
> Born in 🇺🇸
> I can care less what you want to call it. Im american and parents are from pakistan. There.



We call people like you nariyal in Pakistan.

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## Mirzali Khan

Stallion29 said:


> It is a failed state. Thank god my parents left the country 50 years ago. You can be proud of your failed state. Literally every Pakistani youth is trying to escape the country. What are you proud of? If you are so proud stay in pakistan and build it up. Everyone know its the land of no opportunity. Problem is there is no opportunity due to massive corruption in every part of society. You had a chance for some self respect by having imran khan who was trying to make some changes but of course as he was removed the pakistani people watched it all happened for a couple bucks and started looking for handouts again. Look at bangladesh, that country has succeeded. The only thing that succeded in pakistan is zardari and sharrifs bank accounts. Lol



On point 💯



Bleek said:


> Harsh truth



Our country is like a flock of flamingoes

We just stick our heads in the sand and ignore problems.

Many times in this very thread I was getting called Indian just for pointing out uncomfortable truths.



Stallion29 said:


> Thats great you can hold your sentimental value.. that wont get your results. Not sure where you are getting this inferiority complex stuff from. This is all the harsh truth which many pakistanis refuse to see. Its a sinking ship and no one to blame except for the greed of a select few and the complacency of the rest of the population. There was great potential. I am realist and buddy the house in burning down.
> 
> 
> Born in 🇺🇸
> I can care less what you want to call it. Im american and parents are from pakistan. There.



Bro watch out you are gonna get called "Indian" for pointing out an uncomfortable fact! 😂



lastofthepatriots said:


> We call people like you nariyal in Pakistan.



How is he a coconut, he is just stating the obvious.

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## lastofthepatriots

jus_chillin said:


> On point 💯
> 
> 
> 
> Our country is like a flock of flamingoes
> 
> We just stick our heads in the sand and ignore problems.
> 
> Many times in this very thread I was getting called Indian just for pointing out uncomfortable truths.
> 
> 
> 
> Bro watch out you are gonna get called "Indian" for pointing out an uncomfortable fact! 😂
> 
> 
> 
> How is he a coconut, he is just stating the obvious.



I was okay with what he was saying when he introduced himself as American-Pakistani, but when he changed his tune to I’m just American, I really couldn’t give a flying jumbo 747 ****.

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## Stallion29

lastofthepatriots said:


> I was okay with what he was saying when he introduced himself as American-Pakistani, but when he changed his tune to I’m just American, I really couldn’t give a flying jumbo 747 ****.


Yea your missing the point buddy



lastofthepatriots said:


> We call people like you nariyal in Pakistan.


Cool. If I give you a greencard and a couple dollars you will change your tune real quick like Bajwa



jus_chillin said:


> On point 💯
> 
> 
> 
> Our country is like a flock of flamingoes
> 
> We just stick our heads in the sand and ignore problems.
> 
> Many times in this very thread I was getting called Indian just for pointing out uncomfortable truths.
> 
> 
> 
> Bro watch out you are gonna get called "Indian" for pointing out an uncomfortable fact! 😂
> 
> 
> 
> How is he a coconut, he is just stating the obvious.


Oh the inevitable “you’re an indian!” When they dont have a response. Meanwhile india and bangladesh are advancing and pakistanis are out there watching zardari and sharif take turns raping the country lol. Priorities people. Wake up jokers

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## Lincoln

jus_chillin said:


> Its also because of Pakistanis doing pendu behavior in Istanbul and recording Turkish girls on tik tok?



Obviously the main culprit.


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## Bleek

jus_chillin said:


> Our country is like a flock of flamingoes
> 
> We just stick our heads in the sand and ignore problems.
> 
> Many times in this very thread I was getting called Indian just for pointing out uncomfortable truths


Chronic denialism as a coping mechanism.



Stallion29 said:


> Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani.


So where are you going to tell people you are from? 🤣🤣🤣

Indian??? Afghan???? Chinese???


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## Bleek

jus_chillin said:


> Average Indian knows more than 2-3 languages. Majority of Pakistanis don't know what my cultural clothes and dance is called let alone name a single city in Balochistan.
> 
> If looking at India and seeing something right they do is "suspect" then go on, maybe Pakistani fitrat is to hide your head in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong like flamingoes.


Tbh this could all be fixed in Pak studies

Do they not teach regional culture in Pak studies? 

Also there could be a yearly festival in Islamabad showcasing regional cultures. I don't know if it exists but it would definitely help everyone being more aware about each other. 

Also more regional TV channels who can explain the ongoing political tensions in their regional language.


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## lastofthepatriots

Stallion29 said:


> Yea your missing the point buddy
> 
> 
> Cool. If I give you a greencard and a couple dollars you will change your tune real quick like Bajwa
> 
> 
> Oh the inevitable “you’re an indian!” When they dont have a response. Meanwhile india and bangladesh are advancing and pakistanis are out there watching zardari and sharif take turns raping the country lol. Priorities people. Wake up jokers



I’m a dual citizen already.


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## One_Nation

Rafi said:


> Don't talk to your father that way.


Again mouthful and empty mind.


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## One_Nation

Ssan said:


> Not true. They are an ethnic state. We cannot be. And should not be. Even a multi-ethnic state.


Its true Pakistan is an ethnic state and should remain one but how come Iran is not? Are Balochis in east the same as Azeris in the north and all other ethnic groups in between?

I have known many people from Iran and as far as I have seen they very varied ethnically maybe more than Pakistan.


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## One_Nation

Stallion29 said:


> Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani. When you tell people you are pakistani you get labelled negatively. No reason trying to defend. Your prents motherland. Its a lost cause. There was some pride when imran khan was PM. *Now its back to some demented creepy alcoholic uncle running the country*. Pakistani allowed this to happen, let them suffer the consequences. I will sit back and watch the circus. Btw im an american pakistani- just embarrassed i have some genetic similarity to those people there.


Joe Biden?


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## BRAVO_

jus_chillin said:


> Did you learn Farsi or spoke it natively?
> 
> Mashallah I am still impressed either way.


Brother it is my native language ... just like Hazara people speak Dari which is a Branch of Persian we Qazalbash speak Persian

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## Stallion29

One_Nation said:


> Joe Biden?


Actually joe biden single handedly pimp slapped pakistan. And the pakistani people sat there and watched like good little colonized children

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## One_Nation

Kağan Zafer said:


> Very interesting point, though, you shouldn't single out the Pakistani state. There are many ethnic, religious and linguistic sub-identities that states like Germany, France, Turkey, China, Italy or even Sweden have physically and socially erased over time to forge a somewhat homogeneous and functioning _nation_ out of a demographic "mess".
> 
> In fact, Pakistan is incredibly tolerant and lenient when it comes to local identities. One might say even too lenient and tolerant at times...which some people use as a faulty excuse to point out the 'artificial' character of Pakistan.
> 
> The truth is that every single nationstate is artificial. The whole concept is, historically speaking, brandnew and most states came to being just yesterday, even those in Western Europe.
> 
> Your criticism seems a little backhanded because you are criticzing the very existence of a Pakistani identity and not what it should or should not contain.


I think's Pakistan's positive points are being portrayed negatively here. Cleaning out local ethnic identities is cultural genocide. There is no other way Iran and Turkey would have achieved that with people of different ethnic backgrounds who no longer know who they originally were and where they came from and can only identify with their newfound national identity.

Its a good thing Pakistan is not a cultural genocidal state. It is never even attempted in Pakistan.

The Islamic wahabi ideology that was enforced on the country originates overseas and was applied equally on all ethnic groups. We can't say that the dominant ethnic group i.e Punjabis enforced it on others. There are probably more retarded mullahs in Punjab than anywhere else in Pakistan.

_The truth is that every single nationstate is artificial. The whole concept is, historically speaking, brandnew and most states came to being just yesterday, even those in Western Europe.
Your criticism seems a little backhanded because you are criticzing the very existence of a Pakistani identity and not what it should or should not contain._

I raised the same point in the other thread that got deleted. India is a much more artificial country with its French name and borders and governance system developed by the British. Britain itself is a very artificial country with one ethnic group i.e. English dominating and smaller groups Scottish, Welsh and Irish having strong resentment against the state. USA is another example.

The issue with identity crises in Pakistan is not a result of its composition or how it was created rather its the weak willed people who lack the capabilities to envision and build modern states. They will be more stable under nations like Turks and Iranians that apply brute force to rule. They will burn down their house when living in a constitutional democracy.



Stallion29 said:


> Actually joe biden single handedly pimp slapped pakistan. And the pakistani people sat there and watched like good little colonized children


Joe Biden has nothing to do with it. Pakistan has always been a colonized country of USA and most Pakistanis feel no shame in that as they are used to it.

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## Ssan

One_Nation said:


> Its true Pakistan is an ethnic state and should remain one but how come Iran is not? Are Balochis in east the same as Azeris in the north and all other ethnic groups in between?
> 
> I have known many people from Iran and as far as I have seen they very varied ethnically maybe more than Pakistan.


Iran is an ethnic nation state. Pakistan is not and should not be. You misunderstood what I said


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## Stallion29

One_Nation said:


> I think's Pakistan's positive points are being portrayed negatively here. Cleaning out local ethnic identities is cultural genocide. There is no other way Iran and Turkey would have achieved that with people of different ethnic backgrounds who no longer know who they originally were and where they came from and can only identify with their newfound national identity.
> 
> Its a good thing Pakistan is not a cultural genocidal state. It is never even attempted in Pakistan.
> 
> The Islamic wahabi ideology that was enforced on the country originates overseas and was applied equally on all ethnic groups. We can't say that the dominant ethnic group i.e Punjabis enforced it on others. There are probably more retarded mullahs in Punjab than anywhere else in Pakistan.
> 
> _The truth is that every single nationstate is artificial. The whole concept is, historically speaking, brandnew and most states came to being just yesterday, even those in Western Europe.
> Your criticism seems a little backhanded because you are criticzing the very existence of a Pakistani identity and not what it should or should not contain._
> 
> I raised the same point in the other thread that got deleted. India is a much more artificial country with its French name and borders and governance system developed by the British. Britain itself is a very artificial country with one ethnic group i.e. English dominating and smaller groups Scottish, Welsh and Irish having strong resentment against the state. USA is another example.
> 
> The issue with identity crises in Pakistan is not a result of its composition or how it was created rather its the weak willed people who lack the capabilities to envision and build modern states. They will be more stable under nations like Turks and Iranians that apply brute force to rule. They will burn down their house when living in a constitutional democracy.
> 
> 
> Joe Biden has nothing to do with it. Pakistan has always been a colonized country of USA and most Pakistanis feel no shame in that as they are used to it.


Pakistanis are used to being colonized and like it? Haha wtf. Grow some balls and have some self respect. This is what im talking about people. Like little children


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## Novus ordu seclorum

Indus Pakistan said:


> My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.
> 
> What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.
> 
> Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??
> 
> Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.
> 
> But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.
> 
> Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.
> 
> Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.


Pakistan's misery is self inflicted and you are part of it as you don't acknowledge Pakistan's link to ancient India. Similarly, Bharatis deny India's medieval history. 

I think it is Scythian ideology at play. Real Indians or Hindustanis do not deny either history. 

The irony is your name is Indus Pakistan. Hindustan means Land of the Indus. Its identity and culture were carried by people to other parts of the subcontinent which became India. 

So, India is not a geography like the Equator. It is not possible to make an army of the state of Equator.


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## Faqirze

Stallion29 said:


> Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani. When you tell people you are pakistani you get labelled negatively. No reason trying to defend. Your prents motherland. Its a lost cause. There was some pride when imran khan was PM. Now its back to some demented creepy alcoholic uncle running the country. Pakistani allowed this to happen, let them suffer the consequences. I will sit back and watch the circus. Btw im an american pakistani- just embarrassed i have some genetic similarity to those people there.


No your mistaken, the reason people don't respect you is because you don't respect yourself, has nothing to do with you being a Pakistani. The average person doesn't give a rats *** if you are Indian, Chinese, Pakistani or what not, its about who you are as a person. You don't gain respect or become any more or less likeable from others based off your nationality.

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## SQ8

Identity is language or heavy culture - the Arabs have Arabic, the Turks have Turkce, Indonesia has it own - India owned up to its land.

Nations that did not unit on either language or culture are going to be disjointed.

Pakistanis have a majority who are either/and/all ethnofascist racist religious bigots who will find ways to differentiate rather than unite regardless of how much they pretend otherwise. Starting with sect, ethnicity, castes, skin color and then finally when all else fails its monetary class.

Regardless of the affinity from Pakistanis which all comes from their slave mentality of admiring caucasian skin tones a.k.a Laad Sahib .. Turkish people are a nation unified under the common language and culture. Islam is a leaf within their identity but is not the keystone for it, they learn and accept Islam as a way of life for the individual to choose; not “I better be muslim exactly like my parents or “more” or I get declared a kafir and ostracized for it or worse”

In many ways, Pakistan getting independence was a travesty because the sole leader/statesman/moral guide was lost less than a year in. The result is the headless, stringy feather rooster that pecks around randomly but at the end isn’t a rooster as much as motor functions running on muscle memory.
But headless chickens have survived for 18 months so put that into historical perspective.

There are seeds of change, but not until all boomers are in the grave. Gen Z and onwards maybe.


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## Maula Jatt

SQ8 said:


> Identity is language or heavy culture - the Arabs have Arabic, the Turks have Turkce, *Indonesia has it own* - India owned up to its land.
> 
> Nations that did not unit on either language or culture are going to be disjointed.
> 
> Pakistanis have a majority who are either/and/all ethnofascist racist religious bigots who will find ways to differentiate rather than unite regardless of how much they pretend otherwise. Starting with sect, ethnicity, castes, skin color and then finally when all else fails its monetary class.
> 
> Regardless of the affinity from Pakistanis which all comes from their slave mentality of admiring caucasian skin tones a.k.a Laad Sahib .. Turkish people are a nation unified under the common language and culture. Islam is a leaf within their identity but is not the keystone for it, they learn and accept Islam as a way of life for the individual to choose; not “I better be muslim exactly like my parents or “more” or I get declared a kafir and ostracized for it or worse”
> 
> In many ways, Pakistan getting independence was a travesty because the sole leader/statesman/moral guide was lost less than a year in. The result is the headless, stringy feather rooster that pecks around randomly but at the end isn’t a rooster as much as motor functions running on muscle memory.
> But headless chickens have survived for 18 months so put that into historical perspective.
> 
> There are seeds of change, but not until all boomers are in the grave. Gen Z and onwards maybe.


No, afaik they also use a lingua franca like Urdu


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## SQ8

Sainthood 101 said:


> No, afaik they also use a lingua franca like Urdu


Im glad you brought that up - because no one else was pointing to it. 

Urdu is what is really keeping it all together. The headless chicken’s skeleton isn’t all Islam - its Urdu. Yet the hate by ethofascists against it, it’s bastardized versions running amok with roman letters and English in it are leaving that damaged too.


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## ziaulislam

PakistaniJunior said:


> After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.
> 
> *Turkish Situation:*
> 
> With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.
> 
> The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.
> 
> The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.
> 
> These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.
> 
> Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.
> 
> *Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:*
> 
> Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.
> 
> Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?
> 
> We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.
> 
> All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.
> 
> *My Opinion:*
> 
> I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.
> 
> 
> 
> These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I


First you need to see minority province beleive that nobody cares about that to go away

18th amendment was done to address that issue and it has to large extent but mistrust still exists


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## bababho

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> The BIGGEST fallacy in Pakistani identity is to assume that non-Pakistani Muslims view Islam and Islamic unity/the Ummah with the same intense enthusiasm that Pakistani Muslims do. They don't. The Arabs/Palestinians, Iranians, Turks, Afghans, Somalians etc DON'T. They are all HIGHLY nationalistic whereas Pakistanis by and large are not. Pakistanis don't understand or realize this.



There is no pakistani identity if you keep ummah aside, 

Rajputs on both sides
Gujjars on both sides
Jatt / Jutt on Both Sides
Sindhis on Both Sides
Gujratis on Both Sides
Chauhans on Both Sides
Choudhary on Both Sides
Suri / Bajwa / Malik / Shah / Gill / Cheema on Both Sides
Dhar became Dar, Bhat became Butt

anything on east side of Indus has nothing different (75%) , Balochs & Afgan (KP) bordering area is very different (25%)


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## Adonis

Lincoln said:


> That's true, it will help the religious realize that there is no such union or harmony based on religion anymore and that will fuel nationalist feelings. But I also agree with OP in that Pakistanis have very unreasonable expectations from anyone who's a Muslim, we can't mind our own business.
> 
> The Muslim world is, ironically, becoming more and more racist and intolerant, *Pakistan is probably one of the least racist nations in the world towards any race or religion, the intolerance only derives from religious differences. *The faster we move towards Nationalism, the faster we will become more tolerant and more self centered, till then we will always be more occupied with what's happening elsewhere in regards to Islam rather than the issues we face domestically.


I disagree on the bold and so does the World. Look at this forum, the words and sentiments we express about other religion, the acts like burning of Sri Lankan national and our own nationals too (minorities) in the name of blasphemy... looking everything from the lens of religion.....demonstrates adversely about our tolerance and non-racist claims.

To me, the solution is 1. modern education....it is key that will help our youth to focus on right areas, progressive thinking, prosperity, skilled-masses...and second put a curb on madrasa-mullah culture.....make religion a matter of belief than of living....less religious , less radicalised mindsets, less intolerance, less pseudo-superiority-complex and more co-existence with rest of the world.


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## PakAlp

SQ8 said:


> Identity is language or heavy culture - the Arabs have Arabic, the Turks have Turkce, Indonesia has it own - India owned up to its land.
> 
> Nations that did not unit on either language or culture are going to be disjointed.





SQ8 said:


> Im glad you brought that up - because no one else was pointing to it.
> 
> Urdu is what is really keeping it all together. The headless chicken’s skeleton isn’t all Islam - its Urdu. Yet the hate by ethofascists against it, it’s bastardized versions running amok with roman letters and English in it are leaving that damaged too.


Fantastic point. Pakistan language, Art, Culture, food, values, history must be taught to all youth. Allama Iqbal Rahimullah already mentioned this but corrupt governments have failed. We have 10M overseas Pakistanis, when did our government ever tried to promote our culture and language to them. They don't care.

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## Maula Jatt

PakAlp said:


> Fantastic point. Pakistan language, Art, Culture, food, values, history must be taught to all youth. Allama Iqbal Rahimullah already mentioned this but corrupt governments have failed. We have 10M overseas Pakistanis, when did our government ever tried to promote our culture and language to them. They don't care.


Urdu language and culture has been promoted the most- I don't know what more promotion they want now? officially kill all others or criminalize it? 
that's why *Pakistani languages

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## PakAlp

One_Nation said:


> The Islamic wahabi ideology that was enforced on the country originates overseas and was applied equally on all ethnic groups.


Billions were and are spent to spread this ideology. It is a nationalist and religious ideology of a certain country. Our leaders received millions to look the other way. Western ideology is also promoted with billions of investment. Those who follow or have soft corner for these ideologies have their loyalty to these people. They will always back them and support them.



Sainthood 101 said:


> Urdu language and culture has been promoted the most- I don't know what more promotion they want now? officially kill all others or criminalize it?


No promote urdu as the national/government language and promote others as local/cultural languages. I've never seen Pakistan promote Urdu/Culture to overseas Pakistanis. Most of the foreign ministry parties are westernised with alcohol etc.

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## Ssan

The destiny of Pakistan is larger than the destiny of a single language like Urdu. I myself am an Urdu speaker but Pakistans destiny and purpose is to be the model for a truly Islamic democracy. 

We can promote a common language that is fine- but we cannot say that is all why Pakistan was formed. To understand why it was formed, we have to refer to the Objectives resolution. If Urdu was what made someone Pakistani, why would Allama Iqbal invite Leopold Weiss, aka Muhammad Asad, to represent Pakistan at the UN and give him a citizenship? Muhammad Asad’s achievements relate to islamic ideas- not to language. That enough is a hint of what Pakistan was intended to be.

The truth is we have failed to understand what was given to us, what a lot of people sacrificed their lives for. The closest state to ours is Israel. Except Israel’s destiny and reach is limited to a very small group of people. If we accept what we are made to do, ours can be significantly larger.


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## Ssan

And this speak about secularism is misinformed frankly. 

Secularism can mean many things to different people. For starters, what sort of secularism are we going for? 

1) are we going for American secularism, the idea that the state should not influence the church? If so, fine, yes that’s a good principle.
2) are we going for French secularism, where the church should not influence the state? If so, even here, fine, but with the caveat that we have to be clear what the fundamental source of our morality is. I believe an Islamic civil state would adopt the maqasid as shariah as foundational principles for the state. That God has proscribed certain sacred human rights. In a truly secular state, I.e. In some European countries, the foundational principle is derived from Millers Utilitarianism and Kant- frankly, have no interest in accepting this for Pakistan under any circumstance. If we accept lslamic principles, the maqasid as sharia, as our foundational principle for our legal code, we will inevitably have some interpretation of shariah. It does not have to be a shariah that discriminated against minorities but it also does not have to look western either.
3) if we are going for French secularism, ofc, the bit of banning public displays of religion would never work. I hope no one thinks we can go the Laicite way or Ismet Inonu way in Turkey and ban the right of little girls to wear headscarves.


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## Maula Jatt

Ssan said:


> The destiny of Pakistan is larger than the destiny of a single language like Urdu. I myself am an Urdu speaker but Pakistans destiny and purpose is to be the model for a truly Islamic democracy.
> 
> We can promote a common language that is fine- but we cannot say that is all why Pakistan was formed. To understand why it was formed, we have to refer to the Objectives resolution. If Urdu was what made someone Pakistani, why would Allama Iqbal invite Leopold Weiss, aka Muhammad Asad, to represent Pakistan at the UN and give him a citizenship? Muhammad Asad’s achievements relate to islamic ideas- not to language. That enough is a hint of what Pakistan was intended to be.
> 
> The truth is we have failed to understand what was given to us, what a lot of people sacrificed their lives for. The closest state to ours is Israel. Except Israel’s destiny and reach is limited to a very small group of people. If we accept what we are made to do, ours can be significantly larger.


Israel permits homosexuality, bars, drugs everything 
they are socially very liberal while conservatives live side by side 

So no, on a societal level its very different



Ssan said:


> And this speak about secularism is misinformed frankly.
> 
> Secularism can mean many things to different people. For starters, what sort of secularism are we going for?
> 
> 1) are we going for American secularism, the idea that the state should not influence the church? If so, fine, yes that’s a good principle.
> 2) are we going for French secularism, where the church should not influence the state? If so, even here, fine, but with the caveat that we have to be clear what the fundamental source of our morality is. I believe an Islamic civil state would adopt the maqasid as shariah as foundational principles for the state. That God has proscribed certain sacred human rights. In a truly secular state, I.e. In some European countries, the foundational principle is derived from Millers Utilitarianism and Kant- frankly, have no interest in accepting this for Pakistan under any circumstance. If we accept lslamic principles, the maqasid as sharia, as our foundational principle for our legal code, we will inevitably have some interpretation of shariah. It does not have to be a shariah that discriminated against minorities but it also does not have to look western either.
> 3) if we are going for French secularism, ofc, the bit of banning public displays of religion would never work. I hope no one thinks we can go the Laicite way or Ismet Inonu way in Turkey and ban the right of little girls to wear headscarves.


I always liked American views on religion


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## Ssan

Sainthood 101 said:


> Israel permits homosexuality, bars, drugs everything
> they are socially very liberal while conservatives live side by side
> 
> So no, on a societal level its very different


Not what I mean- I mean that Israel has captured the imagination of Jewry in all parts of the world. That Jews of all shades and values (not necessarily all Jews) have some affinity to that state - “a Juden Stat”.

That is something we could be possibly- if we fulfill our destiny.

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## bababho

B.K.N said:


> Most tribes of Punjab and sindh are not found in India and agar hain bhi to numbers kam hain


Rajput / Gujjar/ Jatts are not limited to Punjab (Punjab, Harayana, HP / Uttarakhand, UP, Rajasthan and northern MP basically top half of India have strong presence of these tribes)


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

bababho said:


> There is no pakistani identity if you keep ummah aside,
> 
> Rajputs on both sides
> Gujjars on both sides
> Jatt / Jutt on Both Sides
> Sindhis on Both Sides
> Gujratis on Both Sides
> Chauhans on Both Sides
> Choudhary on Both Sides
> Suri / Bajwa / Malik / Shah / Gill / Cheema on Both Sides
> Dhar became Dar, Bhat became Butt
> 
> anything on east side of Indus has nothing different (75%) , Balochs & Afgan (KP) bordering area is very different (25%)






No gujuratis here in Pakistan............. ..........due to intetrmarrying between Pakistani Rajputs, Jatts, Chauhans etc and the tribes West of us these ethnicities in Pakistan are no longer racially and genetically the same as their indian counterparts...........especially since the indian counterparts have intermarried with south and central indian ethnicities that are alien to Pakistan.......

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## Maira La

bababho said:


> anything on east side of Indus has nothing different (75%) , Balochs & Afgan (KP) bordering area is very different (25%)



Nothing different from what? Indian Punjabis? Indian Punjabis are very different from rest of India (except the Punjabi Dalits).


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## SQ8

PakAlp said:


> Fantastic point. Pakistan language, Art, Culture, food, values, history must be taught to all youth. Allama Iqbal Rahimullah already mentioned this but corrupt governments have failed. We have 10M overseas Pakistanis, when did our government ever tried to promote our culture and language to them. They don't care.


Overseas Pakistanis are a hodgepodge. The first generation immigrant (doesn’t matter when they came) bring their culture but are lost trying to blend in or end up isolated and try to repress it in their second generation. If they succeed isolation occurs but then its not Pakistani culture and its unsustainable in the 3rd generation.
If they fail then its lost.

Overseas Pakistanis (they aren’t really by the second generation) have to create their own culture that incorporates a hybrid. They have to instill the best of Pakistani and foriegn culture but dispel the toxicity from both - not an easy task at all.

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## bababho

Maira La said:


> Nothing different from what? Indian Punjabis? Indian Punjabis are very different from rest of India (except the Punjabi Dalits).


go and study basics of sampling and overlaps, 
Larger sample being diverse one can never have high overlap with smaller ones, its always measured what % of smaller set has over lap, as I told 75% of Pakistanis are no different than Indians as 100% Bangladeshis also are not different from Indian, but that does not mean Pakistani's and BDs have overlap, 
Pakistan and BD are two small sets having very large overlap (75% & 100%) with a large set (India)



PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> No gujuratis here in Pakistan............. ..........due to intetrmarrying between Pakistani Rajputs, Jatts, Chauhans etc and the tribes West of us these ethnicities in Pakistan are no longer racially and genetically the same as their indian counterparts...........especially since the indian counterparts have intermarried with south and central indian ethnicities that are alien to Pakistan.......


Mr Darwin, 
70 years me kaun si race change hoti hai, kaun se genetic mutations ho jaate hain it takes thousands of years or even more 

A chimp and a Human are 100s of million of years apart but have 97% common genes


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## PakAlp

SQ8 said:


> Overseas Pakistanis are a hodgepodge. The first generation immigrant (doesn’t matter when they came) bring their culture but are lost trying to blend in or end up isolated and try to repress it in their second generation. If they succeed isolation occurs but then its not Pakistani culture and its unsustainable in the 3rd generation.
> If they fail then its lost.
> 
> Overseas Pakistanis (they aren’t really by the second generation) have to create their own culture that incorporates a hybrid. They have to instill the best of Pakistani and foriegn culture but dispel the toxicity from both - not an easy task at all.


I am 2nd generation. I learnt Urdu, always ate Pakistani food, drinks. The clothing can be a difficult part, i try to learn Urdu calligraphy. Urdu TV etc is difficult. The 3rd generation i try to teach them urdu/culture but its very difficult for them to understand. Pakistan is not exactly a place where you can take them to learn something good. Lies, corruption, propaganda, twisting of words, false allegations is normal in the villages.

You can always preserve your culture. I understand some isolated can take place but then again this is the reason why Pakistan and India separated, our elders wanted to preserve their culture, religion, identity. We must find a way to preserve our way of life but also learn to get on with others, respect their culture and way of life.

Look at the west, they worked hard and created their own way of life, culture, fashion etc. The whole world loves it and people are attractive towards it. It is slowly creeping in to Pakistani society aswell, and wherever this western culture reaches, it dominates that society.

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## MisterSyed

PakAlp said:


> I am 2nd generation. I learnt Urdu, always ate Pakistani food, drinks. The clothing can be a difficult part, i try to learn Urdu calligraphy. Urdu TV etc is difficult. The 3rd generation i try to teach them urdu/culture but its very difficult for them to understand. Pakistan is not exactly a place where you can take them to learn something good. Lies, corruption, propaganda, twisting of words, false allegations is normal in the villages.
> 
> You can always preserve your culture. I understand some isolated can take place but then again this is the reason why Pakistan and India separated, our elders wanted to preserve their culture, religion, identity. We must find a way to preserve our way of life but also learn to get on with others, respect their culture and way of life.
> 
> Look at the west, they worked hard and created their own way of life, culture, fashion etc. The whole world loves it and people are attractive towards it. It is slowly creeping in to Pakistani society aswell, and wherever this western culture reaches, it dominates that society.


We have our own Culture, But then certain indian people come up and claim it as their own.


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## Maira La

bababho said:


> go and study basics of sampling and overlaps,
> Larger sample being diverse one can never have high overlap with smaller ones, its always measured what % of smaller set has over lap, as I told 75% of Pakistanis are no different than Indians as 100% Bangladeshis also are not different from Indian, but that does not mean Pakistani's and BDs have overlap,
> Pakistan and BD are two small sets having very large overlap (75% & 100%) with a large set (India)



You know nothing about Bengalis. Each Hindu caste is genetically distinct, the Brahmins look nothing like the Namasudras, and Muslims are also genetically different from the Hindus. Racially we have nothing to do with Pakistanis and Northwest Indians, who in turn have nothing to do with Eastern and Southern Indian continent.

India is a continent, we have some overlap with neighboring ethnicities, but you highly exaggerate the overlap out of nationalism. Lebanese overlap with Italians, but they are not Italians.

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## PakAlp

MisterSyed said:


> We have our own Culture, But then certain indian people come up and claim it as their own.


Let them. Deep down they all know its the Islamic culture. Pakistan has failed in all fields, its a sad fact. The biggest culprit is our governments who were busy with corruption. I respect IK for wearing desi clothes wherever he went, Pakistan also made urdu compulsory in the parliament. A good start.


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## Maira La

@bababho 

See below, I used publicly available population genetics data to find the genetic distance from Indian Punjabis to Iranians and Tamils. You can see that the Indian Punjabis are closer to the Iranians.

I suppose we need to stop drawing completely arbitrary boundaries grouping different ethnicities together, and leaving some others out, simply out of nationalism. India is a continent, it is not a single genetic cluster. You could never justify India's existence as a country from a racial perspective.







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@Sudarshan , chamar, stay clear of topics you know nothing about. Stick to whatsapp university for untermenschen.

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