# China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan



## HAIDER

China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in Canada.

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.

Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.

Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B’s power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A’s 500 flight hours to the J-10B’s 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.

Source : Want China Times

* That' s the engine, which is game changer. Same engine is used in all Russian and Chinese stealth fighters/bombers. Plus same same type used in SU30/35. Same engine is modified for TVC. If Russia approve this engine, then for sure this plane will be in Pak fleet. If PAF has no other issues.

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## Max Pain

Want China times isn't really a reliable source but nevertheless it would be good if we get squadrons of J10s

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## HAIDER

Max Pain said:


> Want China times isn't really a reliable source but nevertheless it would be good if we get squadrons of J10s


Chinese attempting to use WS10A as single engine base in J10, which fail to perform according to requirements. But most interesting factor people unaware about AL31 , its is only configured as pair in or two engine in a single plane. Its first time re configured for J10 as single engine and found most reliable.

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## Gufi

HAIDER said:


> Chinese attempting to use WS10A as single engine base in J10, which fail to perform according to requirements.


wrong

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## Zarvan

HAIDER said:


> China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in Canada.
> 
> Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.
> 
> Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.
> 
> Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B’s power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A’s 500 flight hours to the J-10B’s 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.
> 
> Source : Want China Times
> 
> * That' s the engine, which is game changer. Same engine is used in all Russian and Chinese stealth fighters/bombers. Plus same same type used in SU30/35. Same engine is modified for TVC. If Russia approve this engine, then for sure this plane will be in Pak fleet. If PAF has no other issues.


I really hope we get 100 of these at least


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## IndoUS

I thought they changed all the engines with WS10 for the J-10 or is only the export versions are being sold with Russian engines?


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## Max Pain

HAIDER said:


> Chinese attempting to use WS10A as single engine base in J10, which fail to perform according to requirements. But most interesting factor people unaware about AL31 , its is only configured as pair in or two engine in a single plane. Its first time re configured for J10 as single engine and found most reliable.



The latest batch of J10s do have the Chinese engine and if we are to get a J10 then it will be with the Chinese engine, not the russian one



IndoUS said:


> I thought they changed all the engines with WS10 for the J-10 or is only the export versions are being sold with Russian engines?


You thought right, newer batches do have the Chinese engine. J 10 A had the russian Al 31.

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## HAIDER

The WS10, China's flagship jet fighter engine, remained seriously flawed after a quarter of century of development effort. The WS10 engine was intended to equip the new J-10 fighter, low-rate initial production of which was authorised in 2002. But at least the initial run of fifty J-10 aircraft were to be fitted with Russian AL-31F engines instead. The WS10 engine was reverse-engineered from the CFM-56 commercial turbofan, which in turn was a derivative of the General Electric F101 engine originally designed for the 1960s-era Advanced Manned Strategic Aircraft, which was eventually deployed as the B-1 bomber.

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## Gufi

HAIDER said:


> The WS10, China's flagship jet fighter engine, remained seriously flawed after a quarter of century of development effort. The WS10 engine was intended to equip the new J-10 fighter, low-rate initial production of which was authorised in 2002. But at least the initial run of fifty J-10 aircraft were to be fitted with Russian AL-31F engines instead. The WS10 engine was reverse-engineered from the CFM-56 commercial turbofan, which in turn was a derivative of the General Electric F101 engine originally designed for the 1960s-era Advanced Manned Strategic Aircraft, which was eventually deployed as the B-1 bomber.


Although the performance of the ‘Taihang’ engine is better than that of AF-31F engine imported from Russia, such factors as reliability and service life of the ‘Taihang’ engine have to be determined through many years’ trials. These are gaps which China should still spend a lot time to narrow,” Zhang said.

　　But, if the J-10B fighter goes into mass production in the future, it is sure that China’s independently developed engine should be installed on it, Zhang stressed.
China Military Online English Edition

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## HAIDER

China is using, AL31F, AL31FN and now ordered AL31F M1 and TVC 117S. WS10A tested in J11, but fail to match Russian engine. WS10A is nowhere in picture. Even Pakistan wants J10b with Russian engine.




China relies on Russian NPO Saturn AL-31F turbofans to power its J-15s

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## nana41

HAIDER said:


> China is using, AL31F, AL31FN and now ordered AL31F M1 and TVC 117S. WS10A tested in J11, but fail to match Russian engine. WS10A is nowhere in picture. Even Pakistan wants J10b with Russian engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China relies on Russian NPO Saturn AL-31F turbofans to power its J-15s



China can not export any machine with russian engine.
My guess is,Pakistan is really not interested in J-10b
it being a strike aircraft and not a good fighter,despite
Pakistan's efforts per FC-10B.Establishment of infrastructure is very costly if the number of machines is
small,for an aircraft which is marginally better than JF-17 in
loads and range. I wonder if Chinese would like PAF to develop tactics around this machine for Chinese Air Force benefits? .

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## HAIDER

nana41 said:


> China can not export any machine with russian engine.
> My guess is,Pakistan is really not interested in J-10b
> it being a strike aircraft and not a good fighter,despite
> Pakistan's efforts per FC-10B.Establishment of infrastructure is very costly if the number of machines is
> small,for an aircraft which is marginally better than JF-17 in
> loads and range. I wonder if Chinese would like PAF to develop tactics around this machine for Chinese Air Force benefits? .


Give little idea. PAF engineers were involved and donated one Mirage when this plane development started. But the issue was engine, when Russian refused third party export of AL31 engine. Pakistan had no choice just to scrap the deal. Now Russian has change the policy, hopefully Pak will get this engine.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Zarvan said:


> I really hope we get 100 of these at least



and some FRIES with KETCHUP ......

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## N/A

Key word in the article "may export". Besides PAF should save up for a 5th gen fighters.

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## Muhammad Omar

uestion is how many?? are we going for 36 or more??


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## graphican

Muhammad Omar said:


> uestion is how many?? *are we going for 36* or more??



136! Its Ramzan, ask for more!

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## Zarvan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> And Sir, would you like FRIES with some KETCHUP ......


You think I am being childish but I stand by my views 270 JF-17 Thunder and 100 F-16 and 100 either J-10B or J-11D is the way forward.

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## Sage

Pakistan is not interested in J-10 B any more ...J-11 D on the other hand still has a shot !


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## Umair Nawaz

yaar im interested in J11B and specially J15. These are best.


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## Irfan Baloch

DANGER-ZONE said:


> and some FRIES with KETCHUP ......


with diet coke make it large please .
money is no issue just like 100 J-10s



Umair Nawaz said:


> yaar im interested in J11B and specially J15. These are best.


they are simply SU-27 Su-30 clones with some Chinese equipment they are as good as any other Chinese product in the modern times like J-10

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## nana41

HAIDER said:


> Give little idea. PAF engineers were involved and donated one Mirage when this plane development started. But the issue was engine, when Russian refused third party export of AL31 engine. Pakistan had no choice just to scrap the deal. Now Russian has change the policy, hopefully Pak will get this engine.


J-10 is based on cancelled Israeli project called LAVEY due to U S refusal of supply of GE engine under ToT,although U S has already helped Israel a lot to develop avionics and radar for this Lavey project.Its that radar and avionics that became the basis of flourishing Israeli avionic industries today.
Israel transferred the technology of MIRAGE based Kafir on which Indian TEJAS is based.Pakistan will suffer,if ever she transferred (against a contract) American/French technology to any country.Read my last post carefully,.


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## princefaisal

Some members are in favor of J-10 while some are against it for induction in PAF. Only PAF will decide whether to proceed with J-10 or not. It all depends upon price (aircraft cost, maintenance cost, spares etc), its capability, its availability, risks from enemy and some terms & conditions.
The J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m (while F-16 has 15,240m, JF-17 has 16,920m). The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further. On the other hand, a French Rafale cannot engage a high-flying J-10A at 18,000m (which is 1,200m beyond the French Rafale's service ceiling).
Geng Ruguang, senior vice president of China Aviation Industry Corporation, said the J-10B's active phased array airborne radar enables the fighter to track six targets and engage four of them simultaneously.
However J-10 may not be good for other roles which JF-17 and F-16 can do better. Every aircraft has its own positive and negative points. So a combination of three different aircrafts can be very lethal for the enemy.


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## airmarshal

Some years ago, China did offer Pakistan 36 J-10B. Pakistan did turn them down saying it wants to invest in a future generation aircraft. 

With F-16s and JF-17s, J-10B will create a redundancy of capability and expense overhead for maintaining a new kind of platform. 

I read about Pakistan turning down the offer and invest new generation platform somewhere on this forum. It was PAF Air Chief interview, if I recall correctly.


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## Muhammad Omar

airmarshal said:


> Some years ago, China did offer Pakistan 36 J-10B. Pakistan did turn them down saying it wants to invest in a future generation aircraft.
> 
> With F-16s and JF-17s, J-10B will create a redundancy of capability and expense overhead for maintaining a new kind of platform.
> 
> I read about Pakistan turning down the offer and invest new generation platform somewhere on this forum. It was PAF Air Chief interview, if I recall correctly.



It was Ex. Chief saying Pakistan should Focus on 5th Generation Fighters.... not on 4th Generation (J-10)


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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> with diet coke make it large please .
> money is no issue just like 100 J-10s
> 
> 
> they are simply SU-27 Su-30 clones with some Chinese equipment they are as good as any other Chinese product in the modern times like J-10


Sir but new J-11 D is far more advance than any other jet economy is the issue other wise we should get 100 of those instead of J-10 B


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## Imran Khan

now its new story ? damn got some heavy fighter then like j-11b

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## Zarvan

airmarshal said:


> Some years ago, China did offer Pakistan 36 J-10B. Pakistan did turn them down saying it wants to invest in a future generation aircraft.
> 
> With F-16s and JF-17s, J-10B will create a redundancy of capability and expense overhead for maintaining a new kind of platform.
> 
> I read about Pakistan turning down the offer and invest new generation platform somewhere on this forum. It was PAF Air Chief interview, if I recall correctly.


Don't trust Armed Forces interviews they on purpose lie they can't afford to tell the truth, it can be dangerous so they can still get J-10B.


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## Emilly David

Irfan Baloch said:


> with diet coke make it large please .
> money is no issue just like 100 J-10s
> 
> 
> *they are simply SU-27 Su-30 clones with some Chinese equipment they are as good as any other Chinese product in the modern times like J-10*


 
Thank you Sir for writing this up. Finally a sane voice.


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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Sir but new J-11 D is far more advance than any other jet economy is the issue other wise we should get 100 of those instead of J-10 B


I agree completely and would prefer J-11 over J-10. a heavy twin engine jet can serve as missile and bomb platform but will require radical change in PAF thinking.. I disagree with inducting 100s of whatever of these two aircrafts though
instead inducting few for stop gap until J-31 becomes a reality .

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I agree completely and would prefer J-11 over J-10. a heavy twin engine jet can serve as missile and bomb platform but will require radical change in PAF thinking.. I disagree with inducting 100s of whatever of these two aircrafts though
> instead inducting few for stop gap until J-31 becomes a reality .


Sir we need 450 Jets and 270 JF-17 and 100 F-16 and 100 J-11 D should be the way forward


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## rockstar08

maybe Pakistan have understand that US wont allow any other country to give us Used F-16's or new one's from US .. so now they are short of some 1-2 sqs meaning some 36-50 Aircraft of F-16's block 52/50 standards , and j-10b fits here .. but lets wait and see, but i believe it will not be a good idea to have J-10B's , instead of making more Jf-17's ...

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## Muhammad Omar

rockstar08 said:


> maybe Pakistan have understand that US wont allow any other country to give us Used F-16's or new one's from US .. so now they are short of some 1-2 sqs meaning some 36-50 Aircraft of F-16's block 52/50 standards , and j-10b fits here .. but lets wait and see, but i believe it will not be a good idea to have J-10B's , instead of making more Jf-17's ...



They will make 250 JF that's for sure


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## killerx

we are buy J10B we are not buy J10B been hearing news for sooooo long now, I will believe once I see on in PAF


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## ACE OF THE AIR

DANGER-ZONE said:


> and some FRIES with KETCHUP ......





Irfan Baloch said:


> with diet coke make it large please .
> money is no issue just like 100 J-10s



Sir, 
When and where is the First Day First Show?

Pop corns mairi taraf se..

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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Sir we need 450 Jets and 270 JF-17 and 100 F-16 and 100 J-11 D should be the way forward


I thought we needed 100?

450 now? only Nawaz Sherif's son can pay for that many aircrafts from his pocket money

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Irfan Baloch said:


> I thought we needed 100?
> 
> 450 now? only Nawaz Sherif's son can pay for that many aircrafts from his pocket money


Sir if this is done it would be far cheaper option than what we are paying to maintain today the various aircraft in PAF fleet.

There is a strong lobby regarding having a single source of products, like we had before 1965 war.


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## HAIDER

nana41 said:


> J-10 is based on cancelled Israeli project called LAVEY due to U S refusal of supply of GE engine under ToT,although U S has already helped Israel a lot to develop avionics and radar for this Lavey project.Its that radar and avionics that became the basis of flourishing Israeli avionic industries today.
> Israel transferred the technology of MIRAGE based Kafir on which Indian TEJAS is based.Pakistan will suffer,if ever she transferred (against a contract) American/French technology to any country.Read my last post carefully,.


That majority people think, but Isreali gave help in later stage. Pakistan PAF engineer been this detla wing program, way before we even this plane touch the tarmac first time. Little hint...



Zarvan said:


> Sir we need 450 Jets and 270 JF-17 and 100 F-16 and 100 J-11 D should be the way forward


Everything revolve around Chinese new engine. Or if Russia allow third party sale. Chance of J31 in PAF , because it carry two RD93 engines. And Russia has no problem if China export these engines to Pakistan.

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I thought we needed 100?
> 
> 450 now? only Nawaz Sherif's son can pay for that many aircrafts from his pocket money


450 total jets in our Air Force 270 JF-17 with 100 F-16 and 100 J-11 D should be part of Air Force



HAIDER said:


> That majority people think, but Isreali gave help in later stage. Pakistan PAF engineer been this detla wing program, way before we even this plane touch the tarmac first time. Little hint...
> 
> 
> Everything revolve around Chinese new engine. Or if Russia allow third party sale. Chance of J31 in PAF , because it carry two RD93 engines. And Russia has no problem if China export these engines to Pakistan.


China is developing engines for stealth fighter they have already fully developed engines for 4.5 Generation Jets new J-10 B and J-11 D now have Chinese engines


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> 450 total jets in our Air Force 270 JF-17 with 100 F-16 and 100 J-11 D should be part of Air Force
> 
> 
> China is developing engines for stealth fighter they have already fully developed engines for 4.5 Generation Jets new J-10 B and J-11 D now have Chinese engines


it would not be J11's but 150-170 J-10's is a possibility...


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> I really hope we get 100 of these at least


100 is not a good number Pakistan has squadrons of 18 aircraft so i would say 126 aircraft or 7 squadrons.



Zarvan said:


> 450 total jets in our Air Force 270 JF-17 with 100 F-16 and 100 J-11 D should be part of Air Force
> 
> 
> China is developing engines for stealth fighter they have already fully developed engines for 4.5 Generation Jets new J-10 B and J-11 D now have Chinese engines


china will not export the j11d as the system is not as capable as its Russian counterparts. and would find it hard to imagine Pakistan buying 100 of these jets because i doubt china will sell the jets and also 100 is a stupid number i would say 108 jets which enough for 6 squadrons. remember Pakistan has 18 jets per squadron. 
if you want to live in a fantasy i would say 
270 jf17's =15 squadrons
126 f16=7 squadrons
180 fc-20=10 squadrons
72 j11b = 4 squadrons
total 36 squadrons

or substitute the j11's for su35's (never going to happen)

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## Muhammad Omar

blue marlin said:


> 72 j11b = 4 squadrons
> total 36 squadrons
> 
> or substitute the j11's for su35's (never going to happen)



or substitute the j11's and su35's for J-31.... that will happen

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## AliWaqar

Oh Bhai Logo Paisa chahiye in sab k liye Wo kider hai ??????????????///// koi batye ga


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## Muhammad Omar

AliWaqar said:


> Oh Bhai Logo Paisa chahiye in sab k liye Wo kider hai ??????????????///// koi batye ga



paisa hai to baat chall rhi hai.... sb kuch btana zarori to ni hota


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## Ray_of_Hope

killerx said:


> we are buy J10B we are not buy J10B been hearing news for sooooo long now, I will believe once I see on in PAF


RIP English

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## Muhammad Omar

war khan said:


> RIP English



uski feelings ko smjho

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## Ray_of_Hope

Muhammad Omar said:


> uski feelings ko smjho


I still can`t stop laughing at his comment

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## karakoram

blue marlin said:


> 100 is not a good number Pakistan has squadrons of 18 aircraft so i would say 126 aircraft or 7 squadrons.
> 
> 
> china will not export the j11d as the system is not as capable as its Russian counterparts. and would find it hard to imagine Pakistan buying 100 of these jets because i doubt china will sell the jets and also 100 is a stupid number i would say 108 jets which enough for 6 squadrons. remember Pakistan has 18 jets per squadron.
> if you want to live in a fantasy i would say
> 270 jf17's =15 squadrons
> 126 f16=7 squadrons
> 180 fc-20=10 squadrons
> 72 j11b = 4 squadrons
> total 36 squadrons
> 
> or substitute the j11's for su35's (never going to happen)


Numbers are quite good but what about maintenance cost can our air force afford maintenance cost ???


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## That Guy

I highly doubt it. PAF is currently looking at future proofing themselves, so they're going to go for 5th gen. Until then, more JF-17s, and F-16s are probably on the cards.


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## Super Falcon

J 10 will definately enhance paf capabilities


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## HAIDER

Irfan Baloch said:


> I agree completely and would prefer J-11 over J-10. a heavy twin engine jet can serve as missile and bomb platform but will require radical change in PAF thinking.. I disagree with inducting 100s of whatever of these two aircrafts though
> instead inducting few for stop gap until J-31 becomes a reality .



Don't think PAF will go for J31. Right now only Chinese made J10 is fully commissioned and even now China ordered more Russian engine to replace Chinese ones. Refer to Chinese test pilot views on WS10 engines. Where he completely rejected and ask for much more modifications in engine.

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## OTTOMAN

Zarvan said:


> I really hope we get 100 of these at least


I really hope not!


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## PWFI

war khan said:


> RIP English


english english oti hei, asli ho ya nakli

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## Zarvan

OTTOMAN said:


> I really hope not!


We would I am dam sure about it


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## kaonalpha

Zarvan said:


> We would I am dam sure about it


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## Zarvan

kaonalpha said:


>


World stands on hope let's make dua also


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## airmarshal

So if the news is true, J-10B will be a great acquisition. 

It has AESA radar and its Saturn AL-31 engine is a thrust vectoring type. Pakistan does not have these two capabilities

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## mike2000 is back

HAIDER said:


> The WS10, China's flagship jet fighter engine, remained seriously flawed after a quarter of century of development effort. The WS10 engine was intended to equip the new J-10 fighter, low-rate initial production of which was authorised in 2002. But at least the initial run of fifty J-10 aircraft were to be fitted with Russian AL-31F engines instead. The WS10 engine was reverse-engineered from the CFM-56 commercial turbofan, which in turn was a derivative of the General Electric F101 engine originally designed for the 1960s-era Advanced Manned Strategic Aircraft, which was eventually deployed as the B-1 bomber.



Yes, China's archilles hills are engines.

If not for the sanctions we could provide some cooperarion with them in this field.


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## Blue Marlin

never tho


Muhammad Omar said:


> or substitute the j11's and su35's for J-31.... that will happen


never thought of that but i can force the j-31 being apart of the PAF.



karakoram said:


> Numbers are quite good but what about maintenance cost can our air force afford maintenance cost ???


this will be in the future. and in the future the economy will be much better than today. so money should not be a problem in the future , should the current government improve the economy.


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## Muhammad Omar

blue marlin said:


> never tho
> 
> never thought of that but i can force the j-31 being apart of the PAF.
> 
> 
> .



PAF is interested in J-31 there are many many news about that but that plane still need time to develop

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## kaonalpha

This might be a stupid question. 

But can't we ask UAE to sell their block 60s to us onnce they start induction of Rafael's.?

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## Muhammad Omar

kaonalpha said:


> This might be a stupid question.
> 
> But can't we ask UAE to sell their block 60s to us onnce they start induction of Rafael's.?



Will USA allow them to sell it?? NEVER


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

I doubt do we have much budget to afford this beauty?

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## M.Yaseen Ayub

Ammar Zeb Khan Niazi said:


> I doubt do we have much budget to afford this beauty?


There is always a problem of budget it will go on loans.

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

M.Yaseen Ayub said:


> There is always a problem of budget it will go on loans.



True that, still we would have to wait for more than a couple of years/ Right?

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## M.Yaseen Ayub

Ammar Zeb Khan Niazi said:


> True that, still we would have to wait for more than a couple of years/ Right?


Yeah ..!! but till then our mood and requirments could change. But there is greater chances of PAF inducting block 60's if we don't get something more good.

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

M.Yaseen Ayub said:


> Yeah ..!! but till then our mood and requirments could change. But there is greater chances of PAF inducting block 60's if we don't get something more good.




When there is a will, there's a way.

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## M.Yaseen Ayub

Ammar Zeb Khan Niazi said:


> When there is a will, there's a way.


yeah .. but our way is only . THE LOANS.........!!!!

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

M.Yaseen Ayub said:


> yeah .. but our way is only . THE LOANS.........!!!!




Shitt!! we are already under too much loan deployment.

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## M.Yaseen Ayub

Ammar Zeb Khan Niazi said:


> Shitt!! we are already under too much loan deployment.


what can we expect in the field of development with a budget like that

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

M.Yaseen Ayub said:


> what can we expect in the field of development with a budget like that




We don't even get development fund actually. All of the defense budget is consumed in personnel salaries, ammo etc ...

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## M.Yaseen Ayub

Ammar Zeb Khan Niazi said:


> We don't even get development fund actually. All of the defense budget is consumed in personnel salaries, ammo etc ...


There is the only way left that r loans..!!!

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

M.Yaseen Ayub said:


> There is the only way left that r loans..!!!




Bring it on!!!!

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## M.Yaseen Ayub

Ammar Zeb Khan Niazi said:


> Bring it on!!!!


Let's wait and see what happens

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

M.Yaseen Ayub said:


> Let's wait and see what happens




Only choice!!!

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## Zarvan

HAIDER said:


> China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in Canada.
> 
> Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.
> 
> Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.
> 
> Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B’s power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A’s 500 flight hours to the J-10B’s 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.
> 
> Source : Want China Times
> 
> * That' s the engine, which is game changer. Same engine is used in all Russian and Chinese stealth fighters/bombers. Plus same same type used in SU30/35. Same engine is modified for TVC. If Russia approve this engine, then for sure this plane will be in Pak fleet. If PAF has no other issues.


Where it says these plans can come to Pakistan ? Did I missed something ?


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## Viper0011.

nana41 said:


> China can not export any machine with russian engine.
> My guess is,Pakistan is really not interested in J-10b .



If the Chinese wanted to, they can export anything with the Russian engines. This is called leverage and Chinese have plenty over the Russians as the Russian economy is pretty close to being tanked. The Chinese are giving them probably the most trade and business right now. So exporting a few hundred engines isn't that big of a deal.

If Pakistan really wants the J-10B, she should get double the amount of engines and store them. That way, you are safe for many years to come. That's not bad. But Pakistan really needs a Twin Turbine platform (about 60-100) with a Stealth platform (about 60).



Ammar Zeb Khan Niazi said:


> Only choice!!!



That's not true. You can easily acquire used -16's in numbers, or even older -15's with upgrades, if you really want to introduce a twin engine jet. You could also use the Chinese card more seriously and use their leverage over the Russians to get J-11's (although I'd prefer J-16). The next obvious step is the stealth platform.

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## ahmad raza jutt

engines are already aproved


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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Viper0011. said:


> If the Chinese wanted to, they can export anything with the Russian engines. This is called leverage and Chinese have plenty over the Russians as the Russian economy is pretty close to being tanked. The Chinese are giving them probably the most trade and business right now. So exporting a few hundred engines isn't that big of a deal.
> 
> If Pakistan really wants the J-10B, she should get double the amount of engines and store them. That way, you are safe for many years to come. That's not bad. But Pakistan really needs a Twin Turbine platform (about 60-100) with a Stealth platform (about 60).
> 
> 
> 
> That's not true. You can easily acquire used -16's in numbers, or even older -15's with upgrades, if you really want to introduce a twin engine jet. You could also use the Chinese card more seriously and use their leverage over the Russians to get J-11's (although I'd prefer J-16). The next obvious step is the stealth platform.




Yup that's write but we were actually talking about J-10. I don't think we can afford it right now. I will go with your opinion instead used F-16's or even Block-60 and F-15 will be cheaper, yet they are one of the most advanced fighters.


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## HAIDER

kaonalpha said:


> This might be a stupid question.
> 
> But can't we ask UAE to sell their block 60s to us onnce they start induction of Rafael's.?


The UAE invested in the “Desert Falcon’s” development, and the contract reportedly includes royalty fees if other countries buy it. Plus UAE recently further modified these planes per regional requirement .


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## nana41

HAIDER said:


> The UAE invested in the “Desert Falcon’s” development, and the contract reportedly includes royalty fees if other countries buy it.



No chinese aircraft with russian engine, can be sold to any
other country without russian approval. Relations between
Pakistan and Russia have not reached the " no objection" level yet,reported sale of Mi-35 Helicopter being a first and a tiny step.Any country willing to sell its F 16 or F 15 requires prior permission from U S Govt.Saudi Arabia bought 50 odd
C-130 Herculese on cash terms.only after an approval,they could sell 5 excess machines to Turky, an American and NATO alley.And that applies to any jointly developed technology as well.


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## HAIDER

nana41 said:


> No chinese aircraft with russian engine, can be sold to any
> other country without russian approval. Relations between
> Pakistan and Russia have not reached the " no objection" level yet,reported sale of Mi-35 Helicopter being a first and a tiny step.Any country willing to sell its F 16 or F 15 requires prior permission from U S Govt.Saudi Arabia bought 50 odd
> C-130 Herculese on cash terms.only after an approval,they could sell 5 excess machines to Turky, an American and NATO alley.


Two differ scenario , NATO has huge boneyard and storage to pull any plane anytime , while Russia has non. Also when talk about AL31 engine, India has high stake when Russia export this engine to Pakistan. Because India already oppose export of this engine to Pakistan few years back,this engine is backbone of Indian air defence fleet.


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## nana41

HAIDER said:


> Two differ scenario , NATO has huge boneyard and storage to pull any plane anytime , while Russia has non. Also when talk about AL31 engine, India has high stake when Russia export this engine to Pakistan. Because India already oppose export of this engine to Pakistan few years back,this engine is backbone of Indian air defence fleet.



What point are you trying to come to?


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## airmarshal

HAIDER said:


> Two differ scenario , NATO has huge boneyard and storage to pull any plane anytime , while Russia has non. Also when talk about AL31 engine, India has high stake when Russia export this engine to Pakistan. Because India already oppose export of this engine to Pakistan few years back,this engine is backbone of Indian air defence fleet.



Stop comparing India to China in any scenario. China and the amount of business and investment it is offering to Russia cant be compared by a distance to what India can offer to Russia. 

At best, India can be a consumer of Russian product. But China is not just consumer at bigger scale but also investor. 

If Pakistan and China want this hurdle can be easily overcome.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Viper0011. said:


> You can easily acquire used -16's in numbers, or even older -15's with upgrades, if you really want to introduce a twin engine jet.



Sir, You are correct but the thing is they are going to have sanctions where as any thing that comes from China would be free...



Ammar Zeb Khan Niazi said:


> Yup that's write but we were actually talking about J-10. I don't think we can afford it right now. I will go with your opinion instead used F-16's or even Block-60 and F-15 will be cheaper, yet they are one of the most advanced fighters.


Do understand that USA is not going to give any technology that exceeds the ones that is in use today in USA. The F-16blk 60 are the most advance F-16's built to date. They have systems that supersede the current systems on US Air force F-16's. If you do some research you are going to find news regarding an attack by UAE Air Force on Libya where the Libians claimed the aircraft were UAE's but the US said they did not see them though they had all the equipment to identify..


HAIDER said:


> Two differ scenario , NATO has huge boneyard and storage to pull any plane anytime , while Russia has non. Also when talk about AL31 engine, India has high stake when Russia export this engine to Pakistan. Because India already oppose export of this engine to Pakistan few years back,this engine is backbone of Indian air defence fleet.


The engines that are heading to India for Su30-MKIs are from Ukraine...Hence Russia is in odds in this regards. The sale of Russian engines directly for JF-17's was the first step in getting improvement rights...

Now PAF are going to get the J-10B hence they require an engine with it...If Russia is not going to give the engine then Belarus is offering the same engine.


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## HAIDER

nana41 said:


> What point are you trying to come to?


Pak arch rival stake holder has deeper pockets then Pakistan.



airmarshal said:


> Stop comparing India to China in any scenario. China and the amount of business and investment it is offering to Russia cant be compared by a distance to what India can offer to Russia.
> 
> At best, India can be a consumer of Russian product. But China is not just consumer at bigger scale but also investor.
> 
> If Pakistan and China want this hurdle can be easily overcome.


Read your line again, Russia has almost 80 percent defence industry of India and China is major exporter and defence order per demand. Also Russia is little uncomfortable when China copy SU27 without Sukoi permission. Later having copy issue with carrier based SU33.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, You are correct but the thing is they are going to have sanctions where as any thing that comes from China would be free...
> 
> 
> Do understand that USA is not going to give any technology that exceeds the ones that is in use today in USA. The F-16blk 60 are the most advance F-16's built to date. They have systems that supersede the current systems on US Air force F-16's. If you do some research you are going to find news regarding an attack by UAE Air Force on Libya where the Libians claimed the aircraft were UAE's but the US said they did not see them though they had all the equipment to identify..
> 
> The engines that are heading to India for Su30-MKIs are from Ukraine...Hence Russia is in odds in this regards. The sale of Russian engines directly for JF-17's was the first step in getting improvement rights...
> 
> Now PAF are going to get the J-10B hence they require an engine with it...If Russia is not going to give the engine then Belarus is offering the same engine.


Look for news when Russian sent SU30 kits to India and Indian failed to assemble , after few months those kits were sent back to Russia and Russia assemble those SU30 and handover to Indian.Also Russia allowed few pre production of SU27 engine, but Ukraine has no setup or export any AL31 engine to any country. US bought Ukarine SU27 .


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## ACE OF THE AIR

HAIDER said:


> Look for news when Russian sent SU30 kits to India and Indian failed to assemble , after few months those kits were sent back to Russia and Russia assemble those SU30 and handover to Indian.Also Russia allowed few pre production of SU27 engine, but Ukraine has no setup or export any AL31 engine to any country. US bought Ukarine SU27 fleet.



Sir pls go through this...
AL-31 engine | China Military


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## HAIDER

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir pls go through this...
> AL-31 engine | China Military


appreciate your effort, but its not official portal. Good for reading, but not reliable when come to reference. Its 2011 news. Also Russia only send the part to few republics to assemble. As you know now, Ukraine is divided and war zone without any production. Now Ukraine is Russian enemy.


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## HariPrasad

What additional features does J 10 offer in excess of JF 17? 

May be little bit of more weight carrying. what else?

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## black-hawk_101

I think they can also export some 50 J-10As to PAF as well as they are still in production and its been tested very well. And later on China may give PAF 50 J-10Bs as well.


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## Blue Marlin

Muhammad Omar said:


> PAF is interested in J-31 there are many many news about that but that plane still need time to develop


need time to develop and time to acclimate enough money to buy them and acquire a licence to co produce. i say it will have a Chinese engine as it already being tested in china. this engine is better than the Russian engine because the Chinese engine has a complete burn resulting in a smokeless combustion and also don't forget its more powerful. this will make the j10 100% indigenous and a jet that can be affected by sanctions



HariPrasad said:


> What additional features does J 10 offer in excess of JF 17?
> 
> May be little bit of more weight carrying. what else?


1. it aerodynamically unstable. it has supermaneuverability
2. it has an IRST good for night strikes.
3. larger airframe carry more weapons/ drop tanks and sniper pods. this answers your question why it is carry more 4. weight.
4.it's faster the j10b with and uprated engine
5. it has an AESA radar.
6. longer range
given these advantages it can compete against the rafael, f18, f16, typhoon, mig 29, su27 and [f15's- depends on specs] .

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## Muhammad Omar

HariPrasad said:


> What additional features does J 10 offer in excess of JF 17?
> 
> May be little bit of more weight carrying. what else?



compare it 

*J-10*


* Crew: 1 (basic), 2 (trainer variant)
* Length: 15.5 m (50 ft 10 in)
* Wingspan: 9.7 m (31 ft 10 in)
* Height: 4.78 m (15.7 ft)
* Wing area: 39 m² (419.8 ft²)
* Empty weight: 8,000–9,730 kg (17,637–21,451 lb)
* Loaded weight: 18,500 kg (40,785 lb )
* Useful load: 5,500 kg (9,920 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 19,277 kg (42,500 lb)
* Powerplant: 1× Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN or Woshan WS-10A "Taihang" turbofan
o Dry thrust: 79.43 kN / 89.17 kN (17,860 lbf / 20,050 lbf)
o Thrust with afterburner: 122.5 kN / 129.4 kN (27,557 lbf / 29,101 lbf)

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude, Mach 1.2 at sea level
* g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²)
* Combat radius:
o On hi-lo-hi mission: 2,540 km (1,370 nautical miles) with 4,000lb/1,814kg bombload and two air-to-air missiles 
o On lo-lo-lo mission: 1,310 km (710 nautical miles with 4,000lb/1,814kg bombload and two air-to-air missiles 
* Maximum range (without refueling): 3,400 km (2,113 mi) ()
* Service ceiling: 20,000 m (65,600 ft[5])
* Wing loading: 335 kg/m² (64 lb/ft²)
* Minimum thrust/weight: 0.98


*JF-17*

The PAC JF-17 Thunder (Urdu: تھنڈر), also known in China as the Chengdu FC-1 Fierce Dragon (Chinese: 枭龙; pinyin: Xiāo Lóng),[1] is a light-weight multi-role combat aircraft jointly developed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex of Pakistan. The "JF" and "FC" designations stand for "Joint Fighter" and "Fighter China" respectively.

* Crew: 1 (2 for proposed twin-seater)
* Length: 14.0 m [44] (45.9 ft)
* Wingspan: 9.45 m [44] (31 ft)
* Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
* Wing area: 24.4 m² [44] (263 ft²)
* Empty weight: 6,411 kg [45] (14,134 lb)
* Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles [46] [47] (20,062 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [46] (28,000 lb)
* Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan [48]
o Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [49] [50] (11,106 lbf)
o Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN [51] [52] (18,973 lbf)
* G-limit: +8.5 g [16]
* Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb) [53]

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [54] [55]
* Combat radius: 1,352 km [56] (840 mi)
* Ferry range: 3,000 km [57] [58] (2,175 mi)
* Service ceiling: 16,700 m [59] (54,790 ft)
* Thrust/weight: 0.99 [60] [61]

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## nana41

Irfan Baloch said:


> with diet coke make it large please .
> money is no issue just like 100 J-10s
> 
> Chotay Bhai Irfan
> Be very careful of this Coak otherwise you might end up with a chopper(upper part) like i have.Wishing you
> best of every thing in life.





Irfan Baloch said:


> with diet coke make it large please .
> money is no issue just like 100 J-10s
> 
> 
> they are simply SU-27 Su-30 clones with some Chinese equipment they are as good as any other Chinese product in the modern times like J-10



IRFAN BHAIYA
STOP drinking coke,otherwise you will end up with upper denture 10 years before i did.KHUSH RAHO.


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## OTTOMAN

Zarvan said:


> We would I am dam sure about it


depends... if Zardari got re-elected, than there is huge chance, otherwise not.


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## Blue Marlin

not really par just ordered 50 jf-17s so 36 j10b's may be possible


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## rockstar08

Muhammad Omar said:


> They will make 250 JF that's for sure



hopefully they make it before 2050 
cause with this speed , i guess the time frame will exceed to 2050


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## Zarvan

OTTOMAN said:


> depends... if Zardari got re-elected, than there is huge chance, otherwise not.


No under him their is no chance of any weapon. J-10 B are must they will come.


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## tarrar

Replacing old mirages with J10B will be good. Like that paf will have a brand new fighter jet. I hope paf goes for j10b.


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## Muhammad Omar

rockstar08 said:


> hopefully they make it before 2050
> cause with this speed , i guess the time frame will exceed to 2050



Nope 250 jf will come much earlier


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## Mughal-Prince

kaonalpha said:


> This might be a stupid question.
> 
> But can't we ask UAE to sell their block 60s to us onnce they start induction of Rafael's.?



 I don't expect this from you.

Block 60s are one of the most sophisticated and latest F-16 series and they been inducted a few years earlier even the AESA which is mounted at those was been funded by UAE for research and development and you are saying they will sold them to us. Even uncle sam will never allow them to let that tech into over hand and by the way I still remember it has been assured that no PAF or Pakistani pilots who are deputed or working for UAE-AF will not be allowed at those aircrafts though I don't know the current situation but I believe it is not changed. I also heard that those been flown for UAE-AF by USAF pilots deputed or providing services like we does.

Did you know that how much of the one quid cost them ?? Approx 110 Million of their US$s. And thats seriously expensive affair.

For person of knowledge like you, thats indeed a stupid question.


----------



## kaonalpha

Mughal-Prince said:


> I don't expect this from you.
> 
> Block 60s are one of the most sophisticated and latest F-16 series and they been inducted a few years earlier even the AESA which is mounted at those was been funded by UAE for research and development and you are saying they will sold them to us. Even uncle sam will never allow them to let that tech into over hand and by the way I still remember it has been assured that no PAF or Pakistani pilots who are deputed or working for UAE-AF will not be allowed at those aircrafts though I don't know the current situation but I believe it is not changed. I also heard that those been flown for UAE-AF by USAF pilots deputed or providing services like we does.
> 
> Did you know that how much of the one quid cost them ?? Approx 110 Million of their US$s. And thats seriously expensive affair.
> 
> For person of knowledge like you, thats indeed a stupid question.


Hey I'm only human.

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## Mughal-Prince

kaonalpha said:


> Hey I'm only human.



Indeed not a Martian

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir, You are correct but the thing is they are going to have sanctions where as any thing that comes from China would be free...
> 
> 
> Do understand that USA is not going to give any technology that exceeds the ones that is in use today in USA. The F-16blk 60 are the most advance F-16's built to date. They have systems that supersede the current systems on US Air force F-16's. If you do some research you are going to find news regarding an attack by UAE Air Force on Libya where the Libians claimed the aircraft were UAE's but the US said they did not see them though they had all the equipment to identify..
> 
> The engines that are heading to India for Su30-MKIs are from Ukraine...Hence Russia is in odds in this regards. The sale of Russian engines directly for JF-17's was the first step in getting improvement rights...
> 
> Now PAF are going to get the J-10B hence they require an engine with it...If Russia is not going to give the engine then Belarus is offering the same engine.



Roger, Got it.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

@kaonalpha 
This was posted earlier in the thread which you might have missed.

Do understand that USA is not going to give any technology that exceeds the ones that is in use today in USA. The F-16blk 60 are the most advance F-16's built to date. They have systems that supersede the current systems on US Air force F-16's. If you do some research you are going to find news regarding an attack by UAE Air Force on Libya where the Libians claimed the aircraft were UAE's but the US said they did not see them though they had all the equipment to identify..


----------



## MastanKhan

HAIDER said:


> China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in Canada.
> 
> Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.
> 
> Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.
> 
> Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B’s power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A’s 500 flight hours to the J-10B’s 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.
> 
> Source : Want China Times
> 
> * That' s the engine, which is game changer. Same engine is used in all Russian and Chinese stealth fighters/bombers. Plus same same type used in SU30/35. Same engine is modified for TVC. If Russia approve this engine, then for sure this plane will be in Pak fleet. If PAF has no other issues.



Hi,

A month or so ago when I stated that there is good news for the air force---it was not the JF 17 BLK 3 with aesa or the J 31----it was rather the availability of J 10 B with aesa to Pakistan----.

18 aircraft were offered to Pakistan out of existing Chinese inventory----. Paf put a hold on it-----. I did not want to name it at that time.

As it is in the open now----my information says that paf may already have --- numbers in stock or it may not---.

I was wondering about the Russian engine on the aircraft---and I said to myself---maybe the Chinese engine is ready---but!!!!!

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## Zarvan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> @kaonalpha
> This was posted earlier in the thread which you might have missed.
> 
> Do understand that USA is not going to give any technology that exceeds the ones that is in use today in USA. The F-16blk 60 are the most advance F-16's built to date. They have systems that supersede the current systems on US Air force F-16's. If you do some research you are going to find news regarding an attack by UAE Air Force on Libya where the Libians claimed the aircraft were UAE's but the US said they did not see them though they had all the equipment to identify..


UAE was the one attacking Libya and they confirmed it. No J-10 B is good but three single engines I really don't like the idea for me way forward is 270 JF-17 with 100 F-16 and 100 J-11 D is the way forward.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> A month or so ago when I stated that there is good news for the air force---it was not the JF 17 BLK 3 with aesa or the J 31----it was rather the availability of J 10 B with aesa to Pakistan----.
> 
> 18 aircraft were offered to Pakistan out of existing Chinese inventory----. Paf put a hold on it-----. I did not want to name it at that time.
> 
> As it is in the open now----my information says that paf may already have --- numbers in stock or it may not---.
> 
> I was wondering about the Russian engine on the aircraft---and I said to myself---maybe the Chinese engine is ready---but!!!!!


You are saying 18 J-10 B may have already arrived in Pakistan ? @MastanKhan


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> A month or so ago when I stated that there is good news for the air force---it was not the JF 17 BLK 3 with aesa or the J 31----it was rather the availability of J 10 B with aesa to Pakistan----.
> 
> 18 aircraft were offered to Pakistan out of existing Chinese inventory----. Paf put a hold on it-----. I did not want to name it at that time.
> 
> As it is in the open now----my information says that paf may already have --- numbers in stock or it may not---.
> 
> I was wondering about the Russian engine on the aircraft---and I said to myself---maybe the Chinese engine is ready---but!!!!!



Sir, 
There is still need for some flankers for the West...But I do not know how true is the SU-35 being offered to Pakistan. There is a strong argument regarding the J-10b should be bought to replace the mirages...


----------



## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> You are saying 18 J-10 B may have already arrived in Pakistan ? @MastanKhan



Hi,

I am not saying anything---but it is not 18.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> You are saying 18 J-10 B may have already arrived in Pakistan ?


Do not know if they are in Pakistan but this is true that they were coming...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We had a deal for 36 J10B ...

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am not saying anything---but it is not 18.


I take it as yes



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Do not know if they are in Pakistan but this is true that they were coming...


I think they are


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> UAE was the one attacking Libya and they confirmed it. No J-10 B is good but three single engines I really don't like the idea for me way forward is 270 JF-17 with 100 F-16 and 100 J-11 D is the way forward.



Bhai look at the present PAF inventory it has 4 single engine fighters...
F-16's 
Mirage iii's & v's
F-7's & pg's
JF-17's

so adding J-10's would just be to replace some of the older ones and they will all be replaced accordingly...

J11D is not a good platform for PAF. J-16 or Su-35 is being considered far superior to J-11D.


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## HAIDER

Echo in Russian official media about SU35 export for Pakistan

Военный дневник Игоря Коротченко - Новость дня в сфере ВТС: Россия может поставить Пакистану истребители Су-35

Новость дня в сфере ВТС: Россия может поставить Пакистану истребители Су-35
News of the day in MTC : Russia can put Pakistan Su- 35

@MastanKhan this twin engine dancing girl has chances in PAF or Russian bluff to sabotage Indian Rafale deal...


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## ACE OF THE AIR

@Imran Khan Sir this is going on...


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## Imran Khan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> @Imran Khan Sir this is going on...


i will not believe unless delivery date set


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> i will not believe unless delivery date set


That is still not confirmation, when the first aircraft lands on Pakistani soil in PAF colours is real.

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## Zarvan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bhai look at the present PAF inventory it has 4 single engine fighters...
> F-16's
> Mirage iii's & v's
> F-7's & pg's
> JF-17's
> 
> so adding J-10's would just be to replace some of the older ones and they will all be replaced accordingly...
> 
> J11D is not a good platform for PAF. J-16 or Su-35 is being considered far superior to J-11D.


No J-11 D is new jet completely new and an equvilant of SU-35


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## AliWaqar

Zarvan said:


> No J-11 D is new jet completely new and an equvilant of SU-35


Sir.
Agree with u But PaF hase to acquire J16 And J10b 50.50 What u say


----------



## Zarvan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> That is still not confirmation, when the first aircraft lands on Pakistani soil in PAF colours is real.


What I understand from what @MastanKhan said is one or two squadron have already arrived



AliWaqar said:


> Sir.
> Agree with u But PaF hase to acquire J16 And J10b 50.50 What u say


I would prefer SU-35 over J-16.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bhai look at the present PAF inventory it has 4 single engine fighters...
> F-16's
> Mirage iii's & v's
> F-7's & pg's
> JF-17's
> 
> so adding J-10's would just be to replace some of the older ones and they will all be replaced accordingly...
> 
> J11D is not a good platform for PAF. J-16 or Su-35 is being considered far superior to J-11D.


@Chinese-Dragon and @ChineseTiger1986

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> What I understand from what @MastanKhan said is one or two squadron have already arrived


Still there is no proof they are present on a PAF Base, till then we can not officially confirm. If you remember one of the Ministers quoted PAF has assets that are not present in Pakistan but on international bases which can come to Pakistan without any delay...So most probably he was quoting those aircraft that were ordered during Musharraf days...Though PAF was saying they have been canceled...were infect not. 

The issue regarding J11D or J-16 or Su-35.

PAF is not the one that requires them but PN. For them to take out targets deep inside the Indian ocean naval versions are required though not for Aircraft carrier... The ones that are designed are J-16's and Su-35's J-11D is not. 

J-11D is a land based air force dedicated fighter aircraft. So if later on PAF does consider some thing like a flanker it would definitely go for a variant of Su-35 not a new type like J-11D if the PN uses J-16's on grounds of reducing costs.

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## Zarvan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Still there is no proof they are present on a PAF Base, till then we can not officially confirm. If you remember one of the Ministers quoted PAF has assets that are not present in Pakistan but on international bases which can come to Pakistan without any delay...So most probably he was quoting those aircraft that were ordered during Musharraf days...Though PAF was saying they have been canceled...were infect not.
> 
> The issue regarding J11D or J-16 or Su-35.
> 
> PAF is not the one that requires them but PN. For them to take out targets deep inside the Indian ocean naval versions are required though not for Aircraft carrier... The ones that are designed are J-16's and Su-35's J-11D is not.
> 
> J-11D is a land based air force dedicated fighter aircraft. So if later on PAF does consider some thing like a flanker it would definitely go for a variant of Su-35 not a new type like J-11D if the PN uses J-16's on grounds of reducing costs.


I think if we can manage to get F-16 and J-10 B and SU-35 let say 100 each than we can use JF-17 and F-16 and J-10 B as defending Pakistan and SU-35 can be used for massive attack inside enemy territory.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Zarvan said:


> I think if we can manage to get F-16 and J-10 B and SU-35 let say 100 each than we can use JF-17 and F-16 and J-10 B as defending Pakistan and SU-35 can be used for massive attack inside enemy territory.


Historically Pakistan has been inducting Western equipment... How ever during that time many Pakistani pilots were sent to various friendly countries where they flew Russian and other aircraft that were not in the PAF inventory. This gave both the manufacturer and the pilot enough know how on what tactics can be employed and the pilots knew what is the threat perception.

Now going back to the question of having more F-16's...
What I know at the moment there are no F-16's available that can be bought mlu'ed and if new block 52's are bought they would be delivered some where around 2018-2020 or later... By this time there will be enough old F-16's available for sale so what should be done in the time they are not available. 

There were 2 options given to Pakistan one was to get the F-15's that are available but up-gradation would bring them to 
the same time as 2018. 

Second option was to get the F-18's from Australia but those are also not available till 2018. They also require setup of infrastructure which costs money. 

Now by adding J-10's or J-15/16's Pakistan would be putting all her resources in the hands of China which might not work out bad... China and Egypt is purchasing Su-35's so PAF is going to fly them...Russia is now considering it is not a bad idea to sell these to Pakistan directly because they would know the aircraft in-out but they are not going to tell how to develop it further. 

If Pakistan gets Su-35 aircraft they also get the engine which could be added to the JF-17's or J-10's and J-31's giving commonality.

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## HAIDER

Aviationweek magazine observation about Pakistan J10B/FC20

J-10B, F-35 Nearing In-Service Debuts | Defense content from Aviation Week

"Pakistan’s variant has been designated the FC-20. It is outfitted with more radar-absorbent material and an active, electronically scanned array radar."

"
*China's J-10B Fighter Aircraft To Enter Export Market*

China could possibly export its J-10B fighter to Pakistan, Asia, Latin America and Africa.

Russia has agreed for a deal to sell its advanced AL31FN engines which will be fitted to the J-10B, Kanwa defense review reported Sunday adding that the first batch of the engines is expected this year.

The Russian engines will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A's 500 flight hours to the J-10B's 750 hours. As China will introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.

The upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves.

The medium-scale 3.5-generation J-10B fighter has a maximum take-off weight of 19 tons, a bomb load between 6 and 8 tons, a combat radius of about 1,000 kilometres and a flight speed between 1 and 1.5 mach. It is equipped with an active phased-array radar and capable of carrying air-to-air missiles.

The aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations with infra-red search and track sensors.

"


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

HAIDER said:


> 3.5-generation J-10B fighter



???


----------



## pkd

Zarvan said:


> I think if we can manage to get F-16 and J-10 B and SU-35 let say 100 each than we can use JF-17 and F-16 and J-10 B as defending Pakistan and SU-35 can be used for massive attack inside enemy territory.


Now you are sounding like our beloved member @AZADPAKISTAN2009 few years ago


----------



## Djinn

pkd said:


> Now you are sounding like our beloved member @AZADPAKISTAN2009 few years ago


I always thought he is his reincarnation. I remember that guy used to come up with his inventory lists like: 300 aircrafts, 60 submarines, 100 helicopters, 600 Nukes .............

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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> What I understand from what @MastanKhan said is one or two squadron have already arrived
> 
> 
> I would prefer SU-35 over J-16.
> 
> 
> @Chinese-Dragon and @ChineseTiger1986




No----



HAIDER said:


> Echo in Russian official media about SU35 export for Pakistan
> 
> Военный дневник Игоря Коротченко - Новость дня в сфере ВТС: Россия может поставить Пакистану истребители Су-35
> 
> Новость дня в сфере ВТС: Россия может поставить Пакистану истребители Су-35
> News of the day in MTC : Russia can put Pakistan Su- 35
> 
> @MastanKhan this twin engine dancing girl has chances in PAF or Russian bluff to sabotage Indian Rafale deal...




Hi,

Russia has India by the Ball joints-----and India is in a position that it never imagined that it would be in ----ie---Russia selling weapons to Pakistan----India in a quandary of either getting the SU 30 or 35 or the Rafale.

It is a very tight squeeze. The rafale deal not signed yet. Pakistan showing interest in the SU 35----.

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## LonE_WolF

MastanKhan said:


> No----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Russia has India by the Ball joints-----and India is in a position that it never imagined that it would be in ----ie---Russia selling weapons to Pakistan----India in a quandary of either getting the SU 30 or 35 or the Rafale.
> 
> It is a very tight squeeze. The rafale deal not signed yet. Pakistan showing interest in the SU 35----.


well mastan bhai this news about showing interest in not new, back in 2012-13 a team of PAF went to Russia where they evaluated SU-35. but it was never revealed.

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## pkd

MastanKhan said:


> No----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Russia has India by the Ball joints-----and India is in a position that it never imagined that it would be in ----ie---Russia selling weapons to Pakistan----India in a quandary of either getting the SU 30 or 35 or the Rafale.
> 
> It is a very tight squeeze. The rafale deal not signed yet. Pakistan showing interest in the SU 35----.


And if India scraps the Rafale deal, this pretty much brings to fore the option of french systems for JF-17

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## ACE OF THE AIR

MastanKhan said:


> No----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Russia has India by the Ball joints-----and India is in a position that it never imagined that it would be in ----ie---Russia selling weapons to Pakistan----India in a quandary of either getting the SU 30 or 35 or the Rafale.
> 
> It is a very tight squeeze. The rafale deal not signed yet. Pakistan showing interest in the SU 35----.


Sir is PAF after the AL31-FN-S3 or AL41-F1S ??

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## Thunder.Storm

Zarvan said:


> No J-11 D is new jet completely new and an equvilant of SU-35


How su-35 is equal to j-11D?


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## MastanKhan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir is PAF after the AL31-FN-S3 or AL41-F1S ??
> 
> View attachment 236533
> View attachment 236534




Hi,

Pakistan is in a much stronger position at this time to get a few goodies from Russia than it was ever---. The GIVE and Take is going to be good for both the parties.

I would not doubt it if the Paf was after those power plants.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistan is in a much stronger position at this time to get a few goodies from Russia than it was ever---. The GIVE and Take is going to be good for both the parties.
> 
> I would not doubt it if the Paf was after those power plants.


Sir then this would only indicate that PAF is not happy with the performance of French engine for the JF-17B (Twin seat).

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## Imran Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistan is in a much stronger position at this time to get a few goodies from Russia than it was ever---. The GIVE and Take is going to be good for both the parties.
> 
> I would not doubt it if the Paf was after those power plants.


its Russia really serious abut WOT boss?


----------



## MastanKhan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir then this would only indicate that PAF is not happy with the performance of French engine for the JF-17B (Twin seat).



Hi,

It is not looked at that way---. It is just to keep your options open---and I believe that those two engines are much bigger for the frame of JF 17.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> its Russia really serious abut WOT boss?


Yes ... They are worried about Taliban's moving towards them to take revenge in CAR which is to be protected by Russia.


----------



## Imran Khan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes ... They are worried about Taliban's moving towards them to take revenge in CAR which is to be protected by Russia.


its seems too otherwise getting close to pakistan make no other good sense


----------



## Thunder.Storm

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is not looked at that way---. It is just to keep your options open---and I believe that those two engines are much bigger for the frame of JF 17.


May be for jf-17 block 3 i read here paf is redesigning block 3.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is not looked at that way---. It is just to keep your options open---and I believe that those two engines are much bigger for the frame of JF 17.


Sir, you are correct, in diameter it is smaller than the current engine but length wise bigger...

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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> its Russia really serious abut WOT boss?




Hi,

What is happening to Russia right now---it cannot ignore Pakistan and in order for it to acknowledge Pakistan---Russia has to change its stance big time in favor of Pakistan.

WOT is a big concern for every nation----. But only out of sheer ignorance of India---by interfering in Pakistan----it has prolonged Pakistan taking out the terrorists and that also has worldwide effect.

I can understand that India wanted to avenge for what Pakistan did to it in the 80's and 90's---but it is all about the timing----it could not have been any poor.

Russia is very serious about the wot and more serious about how it is being strangulated---. Russia needs a lot more breathing room due to the sheer size of its geography and due to its area of influence.

And as it is being strangulated on one side---it would need multiple outlets to keep its presence known and acknowledged and relieve the pressure.



pkd said:


> And if India scraps the Rafale deal, this pretty much brings to fore the option of french systems for JF-17



And interestingly---that won't stop the Russians from dealing with Pakistan. The door has been opened.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> its seems too otherwise getting close to pakistan make no other good sense


They have NATO to worry about after the Crimea issue...So they can not look towards this side...Slowly their allies are being picked off one by one by US and NATO...


----------



## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is happening to Russia right now---it cannot ignore Pakistan and in order for it to acknowledge Pakistan---Russia has to change its stance big time in favor of Pakistan.
> 
> WOT is a big concern for every nation----. But only out of sheer ignorance of India---by interfering in Pakistan----it has prolonged Pakistan taking out the terrorists and that also has worldwide effect.
> 
> I can understand that India wanted to avenge for what Pakistan did to it in the 80's and 90's---but it is all about the timing----it could not have been any poor.
> 
> Russia is very serious about the wot and more serious about how it is being strangulated---. Russia needs a lot more breathing room due to the sheer size of its geography and due to its area of influence.
> 
> And as it is being strangulated on one side---it would need multiple outlets to keep its presence known and acknowledged and relieve the pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> And interestingly---that won't stop the Russians from dealing with Pakistan. The door has been opened.


You are confusing me sometimes I want to get happy on news of J-10 but next second it feels not true


----------



## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> You are confusing me sometimes I want to get happy on news of J-10 but next second it feels not true



Zarvan,

What is not true is not true----. I cannot make it true.


----------



## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Zarvan,
> 
> What is not true is not true----. I cannot make it true.


What if news of J-10 arrived or about to arrive turns out to be true ?


----------



## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> What if news of J-10 arrived or about to arrive turns out to be true ?



Well---then you got the good news then.

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## Doctor09

MastanKhan said:


> Well---then you got the good news then.



http://jang.com.pk/jang/jul2015-daily/10-07-2015/updates/7-10-2015_55224_1.gif

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## aamerjamal

Doctor09 said:


> http://jang.com.pk/jang/jul2015-daily/10-07-2015/updates/7-10-2015_55224_1.gif


pretty detailed articles but then OPSS... typical BHUND by our Local Media, 'Fifth Generation SU 27' lol

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## Muhammad Omar

aamerjamal said:


> pretty detailed articles but then OPSS... typical BHUND by our Local Media, 'Fifth Generation SU 27' lol



That Part ruined the Article


----------



## Tipu7

MastanKhan said:


> Well---then you got the good news then.


Sir any update about J10b.....? Also any possibility for Fkankers in PAF......??


----------



## 55100864

LOL，I can't believe u guys are so seriously about a want China time BS!


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

LonE_WolF said:


> well mastan bhai this news about showing interest in not new, back in 2012-13 a team of PAF went to Russia where they *evaluated SU-35*. but it was never revealed.



by that u meant : P.a.F test-flew su-35 themselves !?


----------



## LonE_WolF

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> by that u meant : P.a.F test-flew su-35 themselves !?


maybe. don't know much details. All i know is that a team went to Russia for evaluating it.


----------



## Thunder.Storm

LonE_WolF said:


> maybe. don't know much details. All i know is that a team went to Russia for evaluating it.


But I read somewhere in pdf that paf don't like dual engine jets.


----------



## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

LonE_WolF said:


> maybe. don't know much details. All i know is that a team went to Russia for evaluating it.


so nice of u 4 ur response. Tc


----------



## LonE_WolF

Thunder.Storm said:


> But I read somewhere in pdf that paf don't like dual engine jets.


budget constraints, higher serviceability costs etc.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

LonE_WolF said:


> budget constraints, higher serviceability costs etc.


If you remember the last twin engine aircraft that were twin engined were replaced by JF-17

F-6 of CCS were the last operational twin engine PAF aircraft.
A5 were also twin engined they were also replaced by JF-17's.

It is wrong to say that PAF does not like to have twin engine aircraft.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Official News , Ka intijar hai


----------



## Blue Marlin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Official News , Ka intijar hai


you do know this forum is also for english users as well. i would sure appreciate if you could translate that, to english.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

English :
Official News , Ka intijar hai

Google translate it , like a google analyst does


----------



## Blue Marlin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> English :
> Official News , Ka intijar hai
> 
> Google translate it , like a google analyst does


what does "Ka intijar hai" mean?


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

It means secret pact has been made


----------



## Blue Marlin

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> It means secret pact has been made


cool so would you say PAC will co produce them and aid china to offer them for export?

i've noticed quiet recently Pakistan is getting unimpressed with chinas tech. Pakistan has already rejected the mbt-3000 and are buying 15 gunships from the US. would you agree?


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No , we have not received any J10B 

We need abundance of Crafts from China


----------



## Blue Marlin

to my understanding pakistan has ordered 50 jf-17's from china and are working on a dual seat version as well. i have a magazine that did an interview with pakistan airforce chief . wait


----------



## Darth Vader

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> Key word in the article "may export". Besides PAF should save up for a 5th gen fighters.


Pakistani Fan boys Do need To understand that Air Force Cant Just sit back and see whats happening 
Pakistan Cant Buy and maintain 5th gen jets in 100s+ Number Mostly 2 or 3 maybe 4 squanders will be operational in Pakistan of 5th gen jets to counter Indian offence and balance , Even these jets which cast alot less then European or Russian jets but price will cost at least 50m+ plus a pop so i don't think even with good economy Pakistan will go for that 

The Backbone of Paf will be F 16 , Jf 17 and J 10Bs in near future and Fc 31 will be be AS fighter and F 16 as strike fighter


----------



## Blue Marlin

this you will find interesting. this is from a magazine in the uk. sorry about the image quality. bad lightin

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## ArsalanKhan21

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Official News , Ka intijar hai



Are you an Indian that switches Z and J ? Hakumat kay aylan ka intezar hay (Waiting for government's announcement)

Pakistan orders Su-35 fighter jets from Russia | Defence blog

This is probably just a Russian drama to induce India to order Su-35 instead of Rafale or else it will be sold to Pakistan.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Appears like a juicy rumor


----------



## Blue Marlin

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Are you an Indian that switches Z and J ? Hakumat kay aylan ka intezar hay (Waiting for government's announcement)
> 
> Pakistan orders Su-35 fighter jets from Russia | Defence blog
> 
> This is probably just a Russian drama to induce India to order Su-35 instead of Rafale or else it will be sold to Pakistan.


dream, india is way to important for russia



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Appears like a juicy rumor


the mazagine is real and authentic the mbt -3000 and the t84 is also authentic look at the post.
T-84 oplot M the new war horse of Pakistan ? | Page 33



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Appears like a juicy rumor


any way where are my manners. Eid Mubarak


----------



## ArsalanKhan21

blue marlin said:


> dream, india is way to important for russia



I already said that this is just Russian baiting India to buy Su-35 instead of Rafale.



ArsalanKhan21 said:


> This is probably just a Russian drama to induce India to order Su-35 instead of Rafale or else it will be sold to Pakistan.

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## Blue Marlin

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> I already said that this is just Russian baiting India to buy Su-35 instead of Rafale.


indian are not stupid to bite for that. Pakistan cant even afford it. and Pakistan should not be the fish at the end of the line. Russians know how to play the game. you got to love them. i prefer them over the US any day of the week though. if Pakistan's economy was strong enough you could have co produced eurofighter typhoons. they make them not to far from my parents house. you hear them occasionally. and they are being modified.
Airbus trials aerodynamic enhancements for Eurofighter Typhoon - IHS Jane's 360


----------



## black-hawk_101

Heard that PAF and other ME countries are interested in acquiring the J-31s in good numbers like150+ in coming 15 years.


----------



## Blue Marlin

black-hawk_101 said:


> Heard that PAF and other ME countries are interested in acquiring the J-31s in good numbers like150+ in coming 15 years.


i will wait 15 year for an actual purchase

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## Donatello

blue marlin said:


> i will wait 15 year for an actual purchase



It will be sooner than that, because China itself wants to have at least two types of Stealth aircraft, things are getting warmed up in the neighborhood and South China Sea.

Which is good, since they'll be accelerating the development of the aircraft.


----------



## Blue Marlin

Donatello said:


> It will be sooner than that, because China itself wants to have at least two types of Stealth aircraft, things are getting warmed up in the neighborhood and South China Sea.
> 
> Which is good, since they'll be accelerating the development of the aircraft.


china is building some thing under the code name j-xx that actual shape is unknown . but its understood the airframe will be smaller than the j20. but larger than the j-31. look similar to the j10- but twin engined and have internal weapons bays. the j-31 will be offered for export in a while as engines are still an issue and i heard its over weight.


----------



## graphican

blue marlin said:


> china is building some thing under the code name j-xx that actual shape is unknown . but its understood the airframe will be smaller than the j20. but larger than the j-31. look similar to the j10- but twin engined and have internal weapons bays. the j-31 will be offered for export in a while as engines are still an issue and i heard its over weight.



J-XX is known to public. It was J-20 and in Roman you write XX as 20.

20 in roman - Google Search
J-20 - Google Search


----------



## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> indian are not stupid to bite for that. Pakistan cant even afford it. and Pakistan should not be the fish at the end of the line. Russians know how to play the game. you got to love them. i prefer them over the US any day of the week though. if Pakistan's economy was strong enough you could have co produced eurofighter typhoons. they make them not to far from my parents house. you hear them occasionally. and they are being modified.
> Airbus trials aerodynamic enhancements for Eurofighter Typhoon - IHS Jane's 360


Pakistan can't afford many weapons which we are buying HQ-9 and HQ-16 and new Tanks and Armored vehicles and Jets and ships and Submarines still we are somehow buying them.

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## al_asad_al_mulk

As per my best sources previously Pakistan decided to buy 36 J 10 B aircraft but our airforce official found that they aircraft is not more capable then F16 AB and inferior to F16 bloack 52+ even MLU upgraded ones so they decided to buy new and used F16 instead of J 10 B because we already have support and technical infrastructure to mantain F16. So as per my best understanding Pakistan air force will not buy J 10 B. Pls comment


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## ArsalanKhan21

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> So as per my best understanding Pakistan air force will not buy J 10 B. Pls comment



Pakistan is waiting for the J-10 performance to improve and India to finally order the Rafale. In the meantime the used F-16s with good deals are bought.

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## DJ Crudept

graphican said:


> 136! Its Ramzan, ask for more!


 same here 200+ rafales


----------



## Zarvan

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> As per my best sources previously Pakistan decided to buy 36 J 10 B aircraft but our airforce official found that they aircraft is not more capable then F16 AB and inferior to F16 bloack 52+ even MLU upgraded ones so they decided to buy new and used F16 instead of J 10 B because we already have support and technical infrastructure to mantain F16. So as per my best understanding Pakistan air force will not buy J 10 B. Pls comment


Pakistan needs 100 J-10 B at least

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## ArsalanKhan21

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan needs 100 J-10 B at least



If we buy more than 36 J-10s then Pakistan has to license the J-10 and manufacture it in Pakistan like the JF-17.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> It means secret pact has been made


old news


----------



## Imran Khan

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> If we buy more than 36 J-10s then Pakistan has to license the J-10 and manufacture it in Pakistan like the JF-17.


koi or kam ho to hukum kareen hazoor ?

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## Muhammad Omar

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> If we buy more than 36 J-10s then Pakistan has to license the J-10 and manufacture it in Pakistan like the JF-17.



Dafuq i just read  

What kind of logic is that buy 36 Jets and get Licence Production Free Free Free


----------



## Pakistanisage

*International NEWS site for 163 netease*

*Han and : F- 10B change Russian new engine failure rate dropped significantly*
Han and said that Russia has provided upgraded AL31FN-S3 engine to China. So now the aircraft manufacturers to further improve the power plant of F–10B fighter. First, the service life of the F–10B type machine and the “average critical time between failures (MTBCF)” significantly extended, compared with 500 hours in the F -10A extended to 750 hours, propulsion also increased by 3%.

Auto parts international
Download Minecraft
Air to air
Aircraft Manufacturers
Data Figure: Chinese J-10B fighter.
Original title: Han and: F-10B Russian dress new engine or exported to Pakistan
[Global] According to military reports Canada, “Chinese Defense Review,” July issue reported that since 2014, the CAC has been accelerating production of the F -10B fighter, and land-based facilities has repeatedly expansion. This implies that the F -10B production has been gradually on the right track. Workshop outside the aircraft parking apron at least extend 470 meters, the new five hangar. To fly in the production of the F -10A not such a massive expansion project. Increased production of fighter F–10B same time, this plant expansion project is also to speed up the J-20 fighter product? The fact is that, but also the need for further observation. The first delivery of the PLA Air Force’s F-type machine has 14 -10B least, all these fighters have now entered a new hangar. In addition, there are at least 10 F-type machine -10B flight tests before being delivered. This means that at least one group, which is F-24 fighter -10B, can be delivered in 2015.
Han and noted that all 14 F–10B fighters have been painted the color of the PLA Air Force, which means that the first type of machine will be delivered to the Air Force use. PLA Naval Air Force F–10A only one flight mission, of course, the future of these aircraft will be replaced. It can clearly be noted that the F -10B fighter cockpit has been significantly upgraded, use the new HUD. Body structure has also been improved, it is the first use DSI inlet models. The model is also equipped with a new radar warning receiver and electronic warfare antennas.
Han and said electronic warfare capabilities greatly enhance the F -10B fighter, especially reconnaissance and combat capability. It is also fitted with infrared detection and tracking system. All this suggests that the F -10B fighter more features than the F -10A, particularly its land and sea attack capability, making it a multi-purpose fighter. In contrast, the F -10A is an air superiority fighter. Not long ago, China with a J -10A fighter as a platform to test the passive phased array radar. Han and believes that the F -10B be fitted with this type of radar system.
Han and said, F–10B type of weapon system equipped with the J -10A machines are very different. During the 2014 Zhuhai Air Show, China exhibited a large number of air-ground and air-to-ship missiles. Of particular note is that ground missiles and precision-guided bombs have been used complex guidance mode, but in a different weight class. Chinese and that the development of these missiles and bombs implies the PLA Air Force’s needs. Future, the F -10B fighters armed more precision-guided weapons systems.
Nevertheless, since Perak Perak -8 AAM-12 and China has not been at the Zhuhai Air Show debut next-generation radar and IR-guided air to air missiles. F–10B first flight test period, and not out of what you want to display AAM picture mount it. But pictures show the J-20 fighter equipped with a similar Russian-made R-77 missiles. Therefore, in the short term, we will continue to use the F–10B Perak Perak-12 and -18-air missiles.
Han and said that Russia has provided upgraded AL31FN-S3 engine to China. So now the aircraft manufacturers to further improve the power plant of F–10B fighter. First, the service life of the F–10B type machine and the “average critical time between failures (MTBCF)” significantly extended, compared with 500 hours in the F -10A extended to 750 hours, propulsion also increased by 3%. Russia is also actively marketing thrust vector control AL31FN-S3 engine. High demand for such engines. According to Chinese and estimated future production of the F -10B aircraft will continue to be used by Russia to develop aviation engines. Han and based on these performance parameters that in the next two decades, the F -10B fighters may be exported to Pakistan and other countries.
(Original title: Chinese and Russian, said the F-10B facelift new engine failure rate dropped significantly)
Original link: http://war.163.com/15/0704/10/ATM2HO7800014OMD.html
This entry was posted in Military on July 4, 2015.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> what does "Ka intijar hai" mean?


Translation 
Just waiting for official conformation


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## Blue Marlin

graphican said:


> J-XX is known to public. It was J-20 and in Roman you write XX as 20.
> 
> 20 in roman - Google Search
> J-20 - Google Search


all i know is that china is making another 5th gen fighter something less capable than the j-20 or j-xx this will most likely be used for export. to compete against f15's, f16' Dassault Rafael's , eurofighter typhoons su30/35's, mig29/35's, and possibly 5th gen fighter being developed be other nations. this means it would be at least 7 years before you see any prototype images of any new fighter. this is a logical step to be a step ahead of the competition, this is my opinion any way.



Zarvan said:


> Pakistan can't afford many weapons which we are buying HQ-9 and HQ-16 and new Tanks and Armored vehicles and Jets and ships and Submarines still we are somehow buying them.


i know, ask you self why are you buying so many Chinese weapons? the answer is a compound answer. first the is the financing options china gives is unparalleled any anywhere around the world, this means with a small steady income you can buy any thing you want. and china and Pakistan being friends, thats just icing on the cake. as i would expect you would get "mates rates" and it already is cheaper than anywhere else in in the world. bonus for you. second china is a very reliable friend or as you would call brother.

i cant imaging Pakistan buying big ticket items in Europe and the US. as they are unreliable and are very strict with their arms exports. example Germany. then Pakistan wanted the 3 type 214 Pakistan wanted tot, thats something Germany was not interested in providing and it's financing options were just too strict and came with many strings.
even with the f16 block 52+.
china is virtually string free. i am aware Pakistan is in negations for hq-9 sam's.


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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> all i know is that china is making another 5th gen fighter something less capable than the j-20 or j-xx this will most likely be used for export. to compete against f15's, f16' Dassault Rafael's , eurofighter typhoons su30/35's, mig29/35's, and possibly 5th gen fighter being developed be other nations. this means it would be at least 7 years before you see any prototype images of any new fighter. this is a logical step to be a step ahead of the competition, this is my opinion any way.
> 
> 
> i know, ask you self why are you buying so many Chinese weapons? the answer is a compound answer. first the is the financing options china gives is unparalleled any anywhere around the world, this means with a small steady income you can buy any thing you want. and china and Pakistan being friends, thats just icing on the cake. as i would expect you would get "mates rates" and it already is cheaper than anywhere else in in the world. bonus for you. second china is a very reliable friend or as you would call brother.
> 
> i cant imaging Pakistan buying big ticket items in Europe and the US. as they are unreliable and are very strict with their arms exports. example Germany. then Pakistan wanted the 3 type 214 Pakistan wanted tot, thats something Germany was not interested in providing and it's financing options were just too strict and came with many strings.
> even with the f16 block 52+.
> china is virtually string free. i am aware Pakistan is in negations for hq-9 sam's.


We are paying for the weapons nothing is coming for free we are paying on time nothing delayed. As for J-10 we need that and also more F-16. SU-35 can be additional option if we want strikes deep inside enemy territory.


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## Blue Marlin

@Zarvan . i never said they came free. and i never said you had payment problems. just complete financing options.
i think pakistan can do with some f16's and j10b's f16 are harder to buy. some countries are less willing to sell to Pakistan. even with Jordan saudi arabia had to persuade jordan to sell the f16's to them. so getting your hands on second hand f16's is going to be difficult. suggestion, go to Greece they have a lot of f16's. and may be willing to sell.

su35 is a dream something that you can only have on a poster on your wall. yes there are reports of Pakistan and russia talking about a potential sale. i think you are forgetting that the Pakistan army is a defensive one not an offensive one. but i think you need a good mixture of the two.

hopefully god-willing your economy will grow and you can procure more weapons quickly and in higher quantities


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## al_asad_al_mulk

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan needs 100 J-10 B at least


Dear Zarvan on what basis they are inferior to F 16 block 52+ even MLU upgraded ones. PAF evaluated and find its better to have even used F16 with MLU upgrade.


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## Zarvan

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> Dear Zarvan on what basis they are inferior to F 16 block 52+ even MLU upgraded ones. PAF evaluated and find its better to have even used F16 with MLU upgrade.


PAF needs three platforms and J-10 B are great option.


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## CHI RULES

AliWaqar said:


> Oh Bhai Logo Paisa chahiye in sab k liye Wo kider hai ??????????????///// koi batye ga


Pak making efforts to get F16 they shall also not be free anf after upgradation costs will be quite match able to Chinese new jets. Further in case of AESA upgrade shall be more costly, due to Indian lobby and US influence we may not be able to get AESA upgrades for F16s.


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## Mani2020

Zarvan said:


> PAF needs three platforms and J-10 B are great option.


There is no set rule stating that paf requires 3 platforms under any modernization plan. A lot depends upon avalibilty of funds and aircrafts. Not long ago paf was finding it difficult to even finance its home grown fighter jf-17 which doesn't even cost much when compared to these modern era fighters.. Besides deal of j-10 is already dead, more interest has shifted towards j31 keeping that we have finances available these aircrafts would be inducted in very limited numbers and until j31 lags significantly in performance or there are major delays or setbacks in j31 program j10 deal won't be on the table again. so most probably paf would be operating f16 jf17 and limited numbers of j31 in near future along with some f7PGs as they were inducted during early 2000s and would be there by approx 2025 atleast
Older f7s and mirages are to be replaced by jf17s and f16s. PAF will surely look for used f16s and there are many air forces who would be retiring them soon.. PAF is going to do similar with f16 to what they did with mirages.

On a side note as much I would personally love to see a squadron or two from flankers family even if they are to be prefered over j10 or in fact to be inducted into naval air arm.. but to be honest apparently no chance

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## Zarvan

Mani2020 said:


> There is no set rule stating that paf requires 3 platforms under any modernization plan. A lot depends upon avalibilty of funds and aircrafts. Not long ago paf was finding it difficult to even finance its home grown fighter jf-17 which doesn't even cost much when compared to these modern era fighters.. Besides deal of j-10 is already dead, more interest has shifted towards j31 keeping that we have finances available these aircrafts would be inducted in very limited numbers and until j31 lags significantly in performance or there are major delays or setbacks in j31 program j10 deal won't be on the table again. so most probably paf would be operating f16 jf17 and limited numbers of j31 in near future along with some f7PGs as they were inducted during early 2000s and would be there by approx 2025 atleast
> Older f7s and mirages are to be replaced by jf17s and f16s. PAF will surely look for used f16s and there are many air forces who would be retiring them soon.. PAF is going to do similar with f16 to what they did with mirages.
> 
> On a side note as much I would personally love to see a squadron or two from flankers family even if they are to be prefered over j10 or in fact to be inducted into naval air arm.. but to be honest apparently no chance


J-10 B deal is alive and was never dead for love of GOD never trust interviews of PAF officials they never tell truth in interviews they are not that fool. J-10 B will eventually come and be part of PAF.


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## Mani2020

Zarvan said:


> J-10 B deal is alive and was never dead for love of GOD never trust interviews of PAF officials they never tell truth in interviews they are not that fool. J-10 B will eventually come and be part of PAF.


Yeah like the deal of u-boats is alive? Right... lol after making it linger for so many years we finally jumped to Chinese options irrespective of the reasons. Similarly fc-20 aka j10 deal hasn't reached any where after good 6 Years.. during 2010 the then ACM said fc20 deal would be finalized this year but after more than 5 years nothing has been materialized.. had there been something it would have been evident... you can't hide anything for so long... one way or the other it has to appear one day...

Lol and btw if paf officials are not to be believed than who is to be believed.. a fan boy who badly wants to see j-10 in paf just because he likes the aircraft. Besides it has been stated on various ocassions that the performance of j-10 is inferior to f16 c/d and at par with older variants... so why would one want to buy something that is inferior to what he can get second hand at way lower price from market without any hassle of maintenance and infrastructure because of commonality of platforms and because they have mastered that aircraft over the years

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## al_asad_al_mulk

Mani2020 said:


> Yeah like the deal of u-boats is alive? Right... lol after making it linger for so many years we finally jumped to Chinese options irrespective of the reasons. Similarly fc-20 aka j10 deal hasn't reached any where after good 6 Years.. during 2010 the then ACM said fc20 deal would be finalized this year but after more than 5 years nothing has been materialized.. had there been something it would have been evident... you can't hide anything for so long... one way or the other it has to appear one day...
> 
> Lol and btw if paf officials are not to be believed than who is to be believed.. a fan boy who badly wants to see j-10 in paf just because he likes the aircraft. Besides it has been stated on various ocassions that the performance of j-10 is inferior to f16 c/d and at par with older variants... so why would one want to buy something that is inferior to what he can get second hand at way lower price from market without any hassle of maintenance and infrastructure because of commonality of platforms and because they have mastered that aircraft over the years


Hats off what a nice reply you stole my worlds.



CHI RULES said:


> Pak making efforts to get F16 they shall also not be free anf after upgradation costs will be quite match able to Chinese new jets. Further in case of AESA upgrade shall be more costly, due to Indian lobby and US influence we may not be able to get AESA upgrades for F16s.


our another all weather friend Turkey will do the upgrades not free but as a soft load as Turkey did if before.

As off my sources PAF also negotiating with UAE to get used mirages and F16 because they need new fighters and looking for a buyer. Comments Pls

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## Zarvan

Mani2020 said:


> Yeah like the deal of u-boats is alive? Right... lol after making it linger for so many years we finally jumped to Chinese options irrespective of the reasons. Similarly fc-20 aka j10 deal hasn't reached any where after good 6 Years.. during 2010 the then ACM said fc20 deal would be finalized this year but after more than 5 years nothing has been materialized.. had there been something it would have been evident... you can't hide anything for so long... one way or the other it has to appear one day...
> 
> Lol and btw if paf officials are not to be believed than who is to be believed.. a fan boy who badly wants to see j-10 in paf just because he likes the aircraft. Besides it has been stated on various ocassions that the performance of j-10 is inferior to f16 c/d and at par with older variants... so why would one want to buy something that is inferior to what he can get second hand at way lower price from market without any hassle of maintenance and infrastructure because of commonality of platforms and because they have mastered that aircraft over the years


I have PAF officials in family I know their lies and you want to believe your choice but J-10 B deal is not dead. You want live in delusions and believe lies nothing can be done about that but J-10 B was never closed it is alive and active. @al_asad_al_mulk


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## al_asad_al_mulk

Zarvan said:


> I have PAF officials in family I know their lies and you want to believe your choice but J-10 B deal is not dead. You want live in delusions and believe lies nothing can be done about that but J-10 B was never closed it is alive and active. @al_asad_al_mulk


Dear Zarvan i am not in delusions or denials as i am suspecting with respect you are the one. Good to know that you have PAF officials in your family and you would also know you must know Pak Armed forces officials can hide truths but they don't lie. J 10 B or FC-20 deal is very much dead until unless China offer it free or much discounted price.


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## Mani2020

Zarvan said:


> I have PAF officials in family I know their lies and you want to believe your choice but J-10 B deal is not dead. You want live in delusions and believe lies nothing can be done about that but J-10 B was never closed it is alive and active. @al_asad_al_mulk[/Q



as i already said we have many members who have phupha chacha taya etc in military amazingly some of them tell respective members about top secret projects and on contrary there are some members whose phupha chacha and taya lie to them so they automatically come up with opposite conclusions
.. so I won't comment on that since it's quite a fun hearing new story every day. 

Just for retrospect j-10 was first offered in 2006 to the then president of pakistan general Musharraf then in 2009 it was said the deal for 40 aircrafts have been signed but later in 2010 it was said by the then ACM that the deal hasn't been signed yet but it will be finalized during same year for 36 aircrafts... then there were rumors of delivering first aircraft in 2012... then in 2013 a report came stating deliveries will start from next year.. then there were rumors that paf will decide the purchase when India will decided the winner of mmrca but then again nothing m.. nada 

Now you can connect the dots... but still if you want to believe otherwise up to you... but j10 deal is following the same course of u-boats and fate won't be different either

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## al_asad_al_mulk

*Future Export*
Pakistan has negotiated with China for purchase of FC-31 with other military equipment including naval submarines and attack helicopters. Pakistan Air Force is looking to buy 30 to 40 of these aircraft. Pakistani Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain, claimed that the matter was being discussed with Chinese authorities for purchase of J-31. The minister was also quoted as saying that Pakistan was also interested in Chinese attack helicopter CAIC Z-10.


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> PAF needs three platforms and J-10 B are great option.


i agree with you to an extent. let me put it to you like this. if you as a Pakistan airforce pilot what do they prefer. j10b or f16 block 52 they will choose the f16 block 52hands down. also note some paf pilots have flown the j10b. in in the eyes of the air force it will focus on acquiring second hand f16's which are the same price as a new jf17 and then upgrade them to a blk 52 standard.

where as the j10b is concerned it is a very good competitor. i not able to asses its capabilities against a f16 blk 52+ but i would assume as a minimum it would be on the same level. and paf already has some j10b avionics on its jf-17. i do think the j10b is a good option as Pakistan can co produce them. and produce them quickly as they are familiar with Chinese planes (jf-17) and they are cheaper than a new f16 blk52.also the j10b has no strings/restrictions so no need to worry about having a contractor wondering around your base.

overall i say, buy them in bulk to licence/co-produce. you need at least 7 squadrons .18*7=126

this seems to be a possibility as the jet is cleared for export and Pakistan has already signed for 36 at 1.4 billion. i would expect a large follow on order to obtain a license to build at PAC this is after they finished building all of the jf-17's which is in 2018. or build another facility to build them. i doubt the second option. first is more of a reality.




File picture of the J-10B fighter of the Air Force of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLAAF)

　　BEIJING, January 20 (ChinaMil) -- Pictures showed that 14 J-10B fighters painted with the mark of the Air Force of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLAAF) were on the parking apron at the airport of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Co., Ltd. under the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), meaning that this type of modified fighter will possibly be deployed to the aviation troops of the PLAAF, according to a recent report on the website of the Jane's Defense Weekly.

　　Zhang Zhaozhong, a military expert at the National Defense University (NDU), said in an interview with reporters from the China Central Television (CCTV) that the J-10B fighter is at least 30 percent better than the J-10A fighter in overall performance.

　　In addition, it possesses advantages as compared with the third-generation fighters of China’s neighboring countries and the 3.5-generation fighters deployed in the Asia Pacific Region by the U.S., namely the J-10B fighter possesses advantages and does not lag behind.

　　Zhang introduced that the medium-scale 3.5-generation J-10B fighter with a maximum take-off weight of 19 tons, a bomb load between 6 and 8 tons, a combat radius of about 1,000 kilometers and a flight speed between 1 and 1.5 mach, which is a modified model of the J-10A fighter, is equipped with an active phased-array radar and capable of carrying air-to-air missiles.

　　The lower nose of the J-10B fighter than that of the J-10A fighter allows pilots have a broader field of vision, and the active phased-array radar with a diameter of about one meter mounted inside the oblate nose part of the fighter, as well as the electronic jammer and searching and tracking device mounted outside the fighter cabin, greatly upgrade the fighter’s electronic information system performance, Zhang said.

　　In addition to the capability of carrying short-range dogfight ammunition, the J-10B fighter can carry medium-range interception missiles with a firing range of tens of kilometers, and at the same time, it is capable of attacking ground targets. Therefore, its combat effectiveness is upgraded with an overall performance improvement of over 30 percent as compared with that of the J-10A fighter, Zhang introduced.

　　Different from the previous radars which could only inactively receive signals, the active phased-array radar with the electronic scanning capability, installed on the J-10B fighter, is “just like 2,000 eyes equipped with telescopes in a one-square-meter radar area”, being conducive to seize the air space control, Zhang Zhaozhong analyzed.

　　Its medium-range interception missiles with a firing range between 70 and 80 kilometers can keep any enemy airplanes far away from its guarding area so as to protect its own safety. Moreover, this type of missile with the tracking and striking capability has a very high hit probability, namely, a target can rarely escape once being locked, Zhang disclosed.

　　The J-10A fighter is mainly used for territorial air defense, namely intercept and expel the planes which have invaded China’s territory. “While, the J-10B fighter, as a type of multi-purpose fighter, can not only undertake the territorial air defense tasks, but also carry out active attack,” Zhang analyzed.

　　As for the question if China-made engine is installed on the J-10B fighter, Zhang Zhaozhong said that it is possible for trail use of China-made “Taihang” engine on the J-10B fighter.

　　“Although the performance of the ‘Taihang’ engine is better than that of AF-31F engine imported from Russia, such factors as reliability and service life of the ‘Taihang’ engine have to be determined through many years’ trials. These are gaps which China should still spend a lot time to narrow,” Zhang said.

　　But, if the J-10B fighter goes into mass production in the future, it is sure that China’s independently developed engine should be installed on it, Zhang stressed.

　　Zhang Zhaozhong also expressed that although the current test flights of China’s J-20 stealth fighter are successful, it will take at least a decade to finish its final design and put it into mass production, and during the period before the J-20 is put to use, the J-10B fighter can make up for the shortcoming of the J-10A fighter, maintaining the combat power of the PLAAF effectively.

　　No doubt, the J-10B fighter possesses advantages over such fighters as the Su-30 and the F-15J imported by China’s neighboring countries including India and Japan, and it is even an advanced fighter and not lags behind as compared with the 3.5-generation fighters deployed in China’s neighboring areas by the U.S., added Zhang Zhaozhong.

source  www.http://english.chinamil.com)


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## Zarvan

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> *Future Export*
> Pakistan has negotiated with China for purchase of FC-31 with other military equipment including naval submarines and attack helicopters. Pakistan Air Force is looking to buy 30 to 40 of these aircraft. Pakistani Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain, claimed that the matter was being discussed with Chinese authorities for purchase of J-31. The minister was also quoted as saying that Pakistan was also interested in Chinese attack helicopter CAIC Z-10.


If Wikipedia is your source than GOD help you and @Mani2020 deal was never signed in 2009. The deal is pretty much on and running.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Nothing substantial so far to worth a commenting from me


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## al_asad_al_mulk

Zarvan said:


> If Wikipedia is your source than GOD help you and @Mani2020 deal was never signed in 2009. The deal is pretty much on and running.


@Zarvan ok look this way suppose you are the deciding authority ok to decide the purchase of 40 fighter jets what you look for your personal choice or what exactly our air force need.
1-If we buy J10 B we have to train our pilots ground staff and build infrastructures for maintenance and lot of other stuff, moreover J10 B is not superior to F16 and not much to JF 17.
2-If we buy F16 block 52+ or F16 with mlu upgrade which is superior to J10 B we need nothing to sorry we have trained pilots have trained ground staff have lot of quality weapons and support infrastructures.

So what you decide give me a reasoning reply not personal choice.

@Zarvan PAF is now looking for 4 + generation aircraft we don't have enough money to purchase 4th Gen planes and again 4th + we already have good numbers of F16 and JF 17 so we no need to get more same generation planes. Our air force have history to maintain small number of advanced Jets whenever we get like F16 in 80s. So as per my source they are looking for Chinese FC-31 when available meanwhile they supplemented current stock with F16 and JF 17s.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> @Zarvan . i never said they came free. and i never said you had payment problems. just complete financing options.
> i think pakistan can do with some f16's and j10b's f16 are harder to buy. some countries are less willing to sell to Pakistan. even with Jordan saudi arabia had to persuade jordan to sell the f16's to them. so getting your hands on second hand f16's is going to be difficult. suggestion, go to Greece they have a lot of f16's. and may be willing to sell.
> 
> su35 is a dream something that you can only have on a poster on your wall. yes there are reports of Pakistan and russia talking about a potential sale. i think you are forgetting that the Pakistan army is a defensive one not an offensive one. but i think you need a good mixture of the two.
> 
> hopefully god-willing your economy will grow and you can procure more weapons quickly and in higher quantities


For the time being F-16's are not available.
The F-16's Greece has are Blk 50/52 and those birds are not cheep. 

@Oscar, Sir can you confirm the Greek F-16's are powered by PW ? 

As far as getting the J-10 / Su-35 can only take effect once India Signs for the Rafale's.



Zarvan said:


> I have PAF officials in family I know their lies and you want to believe your choice but J-10 B deal is not dead. You want live in delusions and believe lies nothing can be done about that but J-10 B was never closed it is alive and active. @al_asad_al_mulk


As long as the productions lines are open there is no such thing as dead. Talks continue off and on... The only real emphasis occurs when there is a requirement or some technical advantage. 

J10 option is still on the cards but there are many others that are also being developed and the delay in ordering Rafales by India has given PAF some breathing space. 

The current issues that PAF needs to solve are the sale percentages and equipment costs and increasing production rate of Jf-17's provided they have reached Agreements with Myanmar / Sri Lanka / Argentina or any other country that might be interested like Malaysia, Indonesia, Iran, Kenya etc,,,

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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> For the time being F-16's are not available.
> The F-16's Greece has are Blk 50/52 and those birds are not cheep.
> 
> @Oscar, Sir can you confirm the Greek F-16's are powered by PW ?
> 
> As far as getting the J-10 / Su-35 can only take effect once India Signs for the Rafale's.


as for info on Greeks f16 look at the link you will find that Greece uses GE engines, yes i know Pakistan uses PW. so thats a problem. 

F-16 Air Forces - Greece


what you say about the j10,su35 is interesting its been a while since modi signed for 36 of the shelf rafale but still not firmed up on them so i would assume Pakistan is waiting for India to a make move, and then it would make a relevant order. to counter


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> For the time being F-16's are not available.
> The F-16's Greece has are Blk 50/52 and those birds are not cheep.
> 
> @Oscar, Sir can you confirm the Greek F-16's are powered by PW ?
> 
> As far as getting the J-10 / Su-35 can only take effect once India Signs for the Rafale's.
> 
> 
> As long as the productions lines are open there is no such thing as dead. Talks continue off and on... The only real emphasis occurs when there is a requirement or some technical advantage.
> 
> J10 option is still on the cards but there are many others that are also being developed and the delay in ordering Rafales by India has given PAF some breathing space.
> 
> The current issues that PAF needs to solve are the sale percentages and equipment costs and increasing production rate of Jf-17's provided they have reached Agreements with Myanmar / Sri Lanka / Argentina or any other country that might be interested like Malaysia, Indonesia, Iran, Kenya etc,,,


i think you can check of Myanmar of the list they have ordered the jf/17, Pakistan should have not said that the country was asian. if so we would be still guessing. they are only 2 asian countries on the watch list sri-Lanka and Myanmar. a quick false report of sri-lanka buying them confirmed Myanmar ordering them. quick simple logic.

@Zarvan you are right as long as if the production line is open. nothing is dead. things are very much alive. these developments are kept secret and people of a very high ranks only know for such developments. so it would be pointless as a normal officer as you get a false misleading answer. zarvan i would assume you would have contacts in paf by the way you talk. the real answers will be given when they are needed to be given. not when you need them.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> what you say about the j10,su35 is interesting its been a while since modi signed for 36 of the shelf rafale but still not firmed up on them so i would assume Pakistan is waiting for India to a make move, and then it would make a relevant order. to counter


What Modi signed was LOI and MOU. Unfortunately these have no legal powers when it comes to actual agreement. Moreover the orders that were placed by France have been reduced hence the aircraft as you have mentioned are being given to Egypt now and in a few months to Qatar. If India places an order of just 36 then this is going to take around 3-5 years before they are delivered. 

In this time frame SU-30 MKI and some more M2k's can be bought for half the price.


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## Blue Marlin

when you say m2k's does that mean a upgrades su30-mki?

if so then i can say that will not happen as india is having problems with the su30. russia even offered india the su30 and still no reply. so the su30 is of the cards. but upgrades will not be though


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> i think you can check of Myanmar of the list they have ordered the jf/17, Pakistan should have not said that the country was asian. if so we would be still guessing. they are only 2 asian countries on the watch list sri-Lanka and Myanmar. a quick false report of sri-lanka buying them confirmed Myanmar ordering them. quick simple logic.
> 
> @Zarvan you are right as long as if the production line is open. nothing is dead. things are very much alive. these developments are kept secret and people of a very high ranks only know for such developments. so it would be pointless as a normal officer as you get a false misleading answer. zarvan i would assume you would have contacts in paf by the way you talk. the real answers will be given when they are needed to be given. not when you need them.


Dont be surprised to hear that by saying Asian country PAF official was actually referring to Malaysia / Indonesia.


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Dont be surprised to hear that by saying Asian country PAF official was actually referring to Malaysia / Indonesia.


i doubt Malaysia will need them, and Indonesia does need them but Indonesia and Pakistan are good friends but i doubt such a deal will accrue, but in the future? possibly

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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> when you say m2k's does that mean a upgrades su30-mki?
> 
> if so then i can say that will not happen as india is having problems with the su30. russia even offered india the su30 and still no reply. so the su30 is of the cards. but upgrades will not be though



M2K = Mirage 2000's 

IAF already operates them so there are some 300 M2K-9's available in the market. 

There was a report in one of the Indian news papers that Russia is willing to supply IAF additional SU-30MKI in fly away condition. This is to expedite the upcoming shortage of IAF aircraft.


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> M2K = Mirage 2000's
> 
> IAF already operates them so there are some 300 M2K-9's available in the market.
> 
> There was a report in one of the Indian news papers that Russia is willing to supply IAF additional SU-30MKI in fly away condition. This is to expedite the upcoming shortage of IAF aircraft.


mirage 2000 is a good airframe but i doubt iaf will get 300 mirage 2000's iaf does need the su30 and russia produces better quality su30's as indian airframes tend to come with problems. so thats an option but will india take it ? i don't think so.


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## princefaisal

Mani2020 said:


> as i already said we have many members who have phupha chacha taya etc in military amazingly some of them tell respective members about top secret projects and on contrary there are some members whose phupha chacha and taya lie to them so they automatically come up with opposite conclusions
> .. so I won't comment on that since it's quite a fun hearing new story every day.
> 
> Just for retrospect j-10 was first offered in 2006 to the then president of pakistan general Musharraf then in 2009 it was said the deal for 40 aircrafts have been signed but later in 2010 it was said by the then ACM that the deal hasn't been signed yet but it will be finalized during same year for 36 aircrafts... then there were rumors of delivering first aircraft in 2012... then in 2013 a report came stating deliveries will start from next year.. then there were rumors that paf will decide the purchase when India will decided the winner of mmrca but then again nothing m.. nada
> 
> Now you can connect the dots... but still if you want to believe otherwise up to you... but j10 deal is following the same course of u-boats and fate won't be different either



Problem with the J-10 seems to be related with engine issues & upgradation process, which were the main cause for delays. J-10B production started in July 2013 and J-10C production started in 2015. Similarly Jf-17 block-II & block-III will have the engine issues due to delays in RD-93MA & WS-13 or WS-17. Also *new WZ-16 turboshaft engine (~1,500kw) for *WZ-10 helicopter will take some time and hence will result late deliveries. Please note that High thrust-to-weight is essential to super-maneuvering fighters because it not only avoids many situations in which an aircraft can stall (such as during vertical climbing maneuvers), but when the aircraft does stall, the high thrust-to-weight ratio allows the pilot to sharply increase forward speed even as the aircraft pitches nose-down; this reduces the angle the nose must pitch down in order to meet the velocity vector, thus recovering more quickly from the stall. This allows stalls to be controlled; the pilot will intentionally stall the aircraft with a hard maneuver, then recover quickly with the high engine power.

Regarding the performance of J-10 against F-16 C/D, yes J-10A (with 123kN engine, without AESA, without DSI) would be inferior in performance but J-10C is quiet different aircraft with maximum thrust of 30,800lb (_137kN_), AESA radar, semi stealth capability, IRST, DSI input, upgraded avionics & upgraded electronic warfare system. Now J-10C is ready and its performance can be checked against F-16 block-52.


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## Mani2020

princefaisal said:


> Problem with the J-10 seems to be related with engine issues & upgradation process, which were the main cause for delays. J-10B production started in July 2013 and J-10C production started in 2015. Similarly Jf-17 block-II & block-III will have the engine issues due to delays in RD-93MA & WS-13 or WS-17. Also *new WZ-16 turboshaft engine (~1,500kw) for *WZ-10 helicopter will take some time and hence will result late deliveries. Please note that High thrust-to-weight is essential to super-maneuvering fighters because it not only avoids many situations in which an aircraft can stall (such as during vertical climbing maneuvers), but when the aircraft does stall, the high thrust-to-weight ratio allows the pilot to sharply increase forward speed even as the aircraft pitches nose-down; this reduces the angle the nose must pitch down in order to meet the velocity vector, thus recovering more quickly from the stall. This allows stalls to be controlled; the pilot will intentionally stall the aircraft with a hard maneuver, then recover quickly with the high engine power.
> 
> Regarding the performance of J-10 against F-16 C/D, yes J-10A (with 123kN engine, without AESA, without DSI) would be inferior in performance but J-10C is quiet different aircraft with maximum thrust of 30,800lb (_137kN_), AESA radar, semi stealth capability, IRST, DSI input, upgraded avionics & upgraded electronic warfare system. Now J-10C is ready and its performance can be checked against F-16 block-52.


Firstly you can't compare the aircrafts just on the basis of thrust to weight ratio... your whole reply was related to thrust to weight ratio.
Secondly Russian engines were there when the aircraft flew for the first time, had there been any need on paf's part getting Russian engines wouldn't have been difficult as they were already supplying us engines for jf17... and we have started to have a good relationship with them
Besides if paf is really thinking to go for j31 then there is no point in jumping onto j10 that too in limited numbers... Besides paf is already interested in used f16s as explained in my earlier posts



Zarvan said:


> @Mani2020[/USER] deal was never signed in 2009. The deal is pretty much on and running.



that's exactly what I said zarvan that deal wasn't signed in 2009, everything till now has just been based upon rumors and these rumors kept on developing on year to year basis.. had there been any truth deal would have been materialized...


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## CHI RULES

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> Hats off what a nice reply you stole my worlds.
> 
> 
> our another all weather friend Turkey will do the upgrades not free but as a soft load as Turkey did if before.
> 
> As off my sources PAF also negotiating with UAE to get used mirages and F16 because they need new fighters and looking for a buyer. Comments Pls



for Mirages may be but UAE will not sell block 60 F16s


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## ArsalanKhan21

Mani2020 said:


> Besides if paf is really thinking to go for j31 then there is no point in jumping onto j10 that too in limited numbers



The fifth generation J-31 should be assembled/manufactured in Pakistan by ending JF-17 production and replacing it with J-31 in early 2020s. Pakistan also needs J-10C in the meantime to counter Rafale and more Su-30MKI .

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mani2020 said:


> Firstly you can't compare the aircrafts just on the basis of thrust to weight ratio... your whole reply was related to thrust to weight ratio.
> Secondly Russian engines were there when the aircraft flew for the first time, had there been any need on paf's part getting Russian engines wouldn't have been difficult as they were already supplying us engines for jf17... and we have started to have a good relationship with them
> Besides if paf is really thinking to go for j31 then there is no point in jumping onto j10 that too in limited numbers... Besides paf is already interested in used f16s as explained in my earlier posts



Bro,
Aircraft performance is always judged by the thrust to weight ratio. However some other things also help like larger wings which give it additional lift though it also increases weight.

Russian engines that were being used by Russian aircraft were not available to Pakistan. JF -17 uses a de-rated engine which was designed keeping in light Indian objections and sale of Mig-29's. These engines were also not given to Pakistan directly but reexported through China.


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## Mani2020

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> The fifth generation J-31 should be assembled/manufactured in Pakistan by ending JF-17 production and replacing it with J-31 in early 2020s. Pakistan also needs J-10C in the meantime to counter Rafale and more Su-30MKI .



What is needed under ideal circumstances and what can be afforded both are different things ..besides paf currently is too consumed with jf17 and related improvements as you yourself stated once paf would be done with jf17 they will shift there focus to j31 till then paf wouldn't mess things up ...as I already mentioned paf will do with f16s similar to what they did with mirages that is buy used ones and maintain a fleet in good numbers besides as its being believed that j-10 doesn't offer much over f16s so getting a new aircraft of similar capabilities won't make sense 

As of now paf would ideally like to maintain a fleet of 4 different types I.e. f16s and jf17s in large numbers f7 PGs and limited numbers of j31 

It doesn't make sense for paf to buy 36 j-10s and then 30 to 40 j31s ...increasing the types with such limited numbers will only create difficulties for an air force like paf that has budget constraints


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## ACE OF THE AIR

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> The fifth generation J-31 should be assembled/manufactured in Pakistan by ending JF-17 production and replacing it with J-31 in early 2020s. Pakistan also needs J-10C in the meantime to counter Rafale and more Su-30MKI .


There is still room for 4++ gen fighters in the world to compete with 5 gen. This is the reason Boeing has upgraded the F-15 & F-18's. Same is the thing with Russia Su-35's and Mig-35's. Euro Fighter block 3, Saab Gripen NG and Rafale are being purchased and upgraded.

J-31's and other 5 Gen aircraft are not going to available till 2020 - 2030 and would last till 2050. Where as the 4++ gen are also looking to be in the market till this time.


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## Mani2020

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bro,
> Aircraft performance is always judged by the thrust to weight ratio. However some other things also help like larger wings which give it additional lift though it also increases weight.
> 
> Russian engines that were being used by Russian aircraft were not available to Pakistan. JF -17 uses a de-rated engine which was designed keeping in light Indian objections and sale of Mig-29's. These engines were also not given to Pakistan directly but reexported through China.


You are ignoring the role of avionics and weapons here... A lot of technology used in jf-17s have found its way from j10 besides jf17s carry similar weapons to what j10 can so in this regard j10s doesn't offer much over jf17. As far as engines from Russia are concerned with little effort and ever improving relationships it wouldn't have been much difficult ...if rd-93 were routed through China so was the case with engines used for j10s ...you need to understand that as India is moving towards Europe and America Russia too needs to play her cards which she already is trying to do...the last thing Russia would want is to make China angry because they are the largest importer of Russian tech although they are slowly and surely moving away but still this is evident from the fact that instead of China cancelling the orders of su27 and imitating su27 to develop j11s still Russia is willing to provide her latest tech to China ...with russia 's economy and large military requirements they need customers ...many countries have already moved away from them under NATO's influence ...

Besides Chinese engines are not mature yet may it be jf17 specific or j10 ones ...they require time for rigorous testing and producing results on the other hand Russian ones have proven their worth


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mani2020 said:


> You are ignoring the role of avionics and weapons here...


Bro, 
Avionics and weapon systems have no effect on aircraft performance (Flight Characteristics). They are sub systems that enhance efficiency. 



> A lot of technology used in jf-17s have found its way from j10 besides jf17s carry similar weapons to what j10 can so in this regard j10s doesn't offer much over jf17.


Yes the technology and weapons systems are similar, but the performance characteristic of J-10 is very different the JF-17. Delta wing has increased payload and high altitude performance capability.



> As far as engines from Russia are concerned with little effort and ever improving relationships it wouldn't have been much difficult ...if rd-93 were routed through China so was the case with engines used for j10s ...you need to understand that as India is moving towards Europe and America Russia too needs to play her cards which she already is trying to do...the last thing Russia would want is to make China angry because they are the largest importer of Russian tech although they are slowly and surely moving away but still this is evident from the fact that instead of China cancelling the orders of su27 and imitating su27 to develop j11s still Russia is willing to provide her latest tech to China ...with russia 's economy and large military requirements they need customers ...many countries have already moved away from them under NATO's influence ...



Now yes it is easier for PAF to get them but not in the past. JF-17 was considered rival to the Mig-29 giving it a engine that was for Mig-29's of IAF that had explicitly stated that the engines and this type of aircraft would not be sold to Pakistan and same was the case with Su-30MKI's. Now the engine that is being offered is the advance version improved by the data provided by China J-10 operation. This is a customized engine hence it has been given a new identity. This does not effect the original engine deal. 

If you read PAF was refused Saab's due to Indian MMRCA as all those aircraft that were offered could not be part of Pakistan fighter procurement programs till the final was selected.



Mani2020 said:


> Besides Chinese engines are not mature yet may it be jf17 specific or j10 ones ...they require time for rigorous testing and producing results on the other hand Russian ones have proven their worth


That is going to mature in time as you say...


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## Blue Marlin

Mani2020 said:


> You are ignoring the role of avionics and weapons here... A lot of technology used in jf-17s have found its way from j10 besides jf17s carry similar weapons to what j10 can so in this regard j10s doesn't offer much over jf17. As far as engines from Russia are concerned with little effort and ever improving relationships it wouldn't have been much difficult ...if rd-93 were routed through China so was the case with engines used for j10s ...you need to understand that as India is moving towards Europe and America Russia too needs to play her cards which she already is trying to do...the last thing Russia would want is to make China angry because they are the largest importer of Russian tech although they are slowly and surely moving away but still this is evident from the fact that instead of China cancelling the orders of su27 and imitating su27 to develop j11s still Russia is willing to provide her latest tech to China ...with russia 's economy and large military requirements they need customers ...many countries have already moved away from them under NATO's influence ...
> 
> Besides Chinese engines are not mature yet may it be jf17 specific or j10 ones ...they require time for rigorous testing and producing results on the other hand Russian ones have proven their worth


Chinese engines are being tested on the jf17.
Paris Air Show 2015: JF-17 fighter flying with indigenous Chinese turbofan - IHS Jane's 360


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## Mani2020

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Bro,
> Avionics and weapon systems have no effect on aircraft performance (Flight Characteristics). They are sub systems that enhance efficiency.
> 
> 
> Yes the technology and weapons systems are similar, but the performance characteristic of J-10 is very different the JF-17. Delta wing has increased payload and high altitude performance capability.
> 
> 
> 
> Now yes it is easier for PAF to get them but not in the past. JF-17 was considered rival to the Mig-29 giving it a engine that was for Mig-29's of IAF that had explicitly stated that the engines and this type of aircraft would not be sold to Pakistan and same was the case with Su-30MKI's. Now the engine that is being offered is the advance version improved by the data provided by China J-10 operation. This is a customized engine hence it has been given a new identity. This does not effect the original engine deal.
> 
> If you read PAF was refused Saab's due to Indian MMRCA as all those aircraft that were offered could not be part of Pakistan fighter procurement programs till the final was selected.
> 
> 
> That is going to mature in time as you say...


When you talk about a fighter jet's performace you talk about complete package and not just aerodynamics because an aicraft with good aerodynamics is of no good if it doesnt have good avionics and weapons package... so everything was in that context

Regarding Saab gripen, no it wasn't because of Indian mmrca... if you monitor the course of it. It was early 2000s when it was evaluated by paf but then since USA lifted embargo we went for f16s as we were already operating them besides if you read or watch the interview of ACM tanveer he clearly stated that we can't handle such complex technology o Saab gripen at this point in time, now why he said that is another debate.

as per your post regarding Russians offering of a customized engine variant for j-10 exactly supports my point. If russia can offer this now why wouldnt have they in 2006 or so had paf showed intent, just a little push was required from China and Russia would have given it to China... 

Since it was offered in 2006 and now it's 2015 we already have wasted 9 years and haven't yet finalized a thing because j-10 has never been our priority.. had it been paf would have reacted in a much more prompt way. even if there was something for j-10 offering of j31 now will make it disappear too.



blue marlin said:


> Chinese engines are being tested on the jf17.
> Paris Air Show 2015: JF-17 fighter flying with indigenous Chinese turbofan - IHS Jane's 360


Never denied that, did I? Being tested and been matured are two different things and like it has been said paf is quite satisfied with Russian engines so they won't be switching to Chinese engines.. mostly it would be for China's own use or for export to other countries in case prospects have any issues with Russian engines

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## Blue Marlin

Mani2020 said:


> When you talk about a fighter jet's performabe you talk about complete package and not just aerodynamics because an aicraft with good aerodynamics is of no good if it doesnt have good avionics and weapons package... so everything was in that context
> 
> Regarding Saab gripen, no it wasn't because of Indian mmrca... if you monitor the course of it. It was early 2000s when it was offered to paf and it was evaluated but then sine USA lifted embargo we went for f16s as we were already operating them besides if you read or watch the interview of ACM tanveer he clearly stated that we can't handle such complex technology o Saab gripen at this point in time, now why he said that is another debate.
> 
> as per your post regarding Russians offering of a customized engine variant for j-10 exactly supports my point. If russia can offer this now why wouldnt have they in 2006 or so had paf showed intent, just a little push was required from China and Russia would have given it to China...
> 
> Since it was offered in 2006 and now it's 2015 we already have wasted 9 years and haven't yet finalized a thing because j-10 has never been our priority.. had it been paf would have reacted in a much more prompt way. even if there was something for j-10 offering of j31 now will make it disappear too.
> 
> 
> Never denied that, did I? Being tested and been matured are two different things and like it has been said paf is quite satisfied with Russian engines so they won't be switching to Chinese engines.. mostly it would be for China's own use or for export to other countries in case prospects have any issues with Russian engines




well you are going to be even more satisfied with the new chines engines. besides you need to get to know them any way . as the j31 will be powered by Chinese engines as the Russian engines are underpowered. so i would think Pakistan would get the Chinese engines to familiarise them selfs so when the j31 arrives Pakistan is just that one step more prepared for its arrival.


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## Mani2020

blue marlin said:


> well you are going to be even more satisfied with the new chines engines. besides you need to get to know them any way . as the j31 will be powered by Chinese engines as the Russian engines are underpowered. so i would think Pakistan would get the Chinese engines to familiarise them selfs so when the j31 arrives Pakistan is just that one step more prepared for its arrival.


There seems no rationality in switching to Chinese engines when you have developed infrastructure for rd 93 and yor current fleet is already flying with these besides it would be insane for paf two operate jf17s with two types of engines. But yes when another Chinese aircraft which is to be bought comes with a Chinese engine then that would be a totally different thing.


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## Cool_Soldier

PAF Should definitely be looking to procure J31 but it will take time to be mature and fully operational.AS IAF is also increasing its strength by inducting 4 n 4.5 Generation planes French as well as Russian made.So PAF should also induct some more 4 n 4.5 generation planes. Available options are F16 and J10. Let see wha PAF decide to further induct.


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## AliWaqar

Paf Walay soye howey hain kya Yar wo hum sab sy zyada Aur behter janty hain Beysabrey na bano Sabar karo Jo hoga nazar ah jaye ga


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mani2020 said:


> it would be insane for paf two operate jf17s with two types of engines.



Jf-17 B (Dual seat) is based on french snecma engines so PAF is looking to have two different engines.


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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There is still room for 4++ gen fighters in the world to compete with 5 gen. This is the reason Boeing has upgraded the F-15 & F-18's. Same is the thing with Russia Su-35's and Mig-35's. Euro Fighter block 3, Saab Gripen NG and Rafale are being purchased and upgraded.
> 
> J-31's and other 5 Gen aircraft are not going to available till 2020 - 2030 and would last till 2050. Where as the 4++ gen are also looking to be in the market till this time.


Agreed but with one proviso. If you have the aircraft in your inventory already then it makes sense. If you dont have the aircraft why increase your workload and the complexity of inducting a new platform when it does not bring anything new on to the table. The next acquisition should be a fifth generation fighter rather than wasting money on a 4th generation fighter. On that basis to me more 16s make more sense but J10 does not.
J11is however a different kettle of fish altogether and its acquisition for the naval role would be a sensible role PROVIDED the navy has enough resources to induct run and support the project. As the resources are not there I would have thought, we would continue developing JFT and acquire used/new 16s as time allows.
I also think we should replace the PGs with JFT for commonality of platcorms and rely on the 2 and wait for the J31/equivalent fighter. 
Araz

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mani2020 said:


> When you talk about a fighter jet's performace you talk about complete package and not just aerodynamics because an aicraft with good aerodynamics is of no good if it doesnt have good avionics and weapons package... so everything was in that context
> 
> Regarding Saab gripen, no it wasn't because of Indian mmrca... if you monitor the course of it. It was early 2000s when it was evaluated by paf but then since USA lifted embargo we went for f16s as we were already operating them besides if you read or watch the interview of ACM tanveer he clearly stated that we can't handle such complex technology o Saab gripen at this point in time, now why he said that is another debate.
> 
> as per your post regarding Russians offering of a customized engine variant for j-10 exactly supports my point. If russia can offer this now why wouldnt have they in 2006 or so had paf showed intent, just a little push was required from China and Russia would have given it to China...
> 
> Since it was offered in 2006 and now it's 2015 we already have wasted 9 years and haven't yet finalized a thing because j-10 has never been our priority.. had it been paf would have reacted in a much more prompt way. even if there was something for j-10 offering of j31 now will make it disappear too.
> 
> 
> Never denied that, did I? Being tested and been matured are two different things and like it has been said paf is quite satisfied with Russian engines so they won't be switching to Chinese engines.. mostly it would be for China's own use or for export to other countries in case prospects have any issues with Russian engines


I agree with what you are saying ... Complex technology was for face saving...If PAF could operate Star Fighters in the 50's out of Peshawar then they could easily operate Gripen. This kind of statement was also given at the time PAF evaluated the Eurofighter Typhoon... 

Russia would have done some thing like that for China but it would have been asking too much from them for PAF. Now the things are very different. At the time PAF and Pakistan was too much into USA, There were many things that could have been taken as US were in a situation they did not like in Afghanistan and could have given some stuff like the F-18's and its engine if PAF would have asked or even the same PW110 engines as F-16's but they never asked them. They were willing to remove the sanctions because it was in their interest and they did offer some other stuff...


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## Mani2020

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Jf-17 B (twin engine) is based on french snecma engines so PAF is looking to have two different engines.


Jf17 b with twin engines. now where did that come from? I have no idea to be honest. Must be a hypothetical aircraft similar to jf17 stealth version as speculated by fanboys but had no reality



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> I agree with what you are saying ... Complex technology was for face saving...If PAF could operate Star Fighters in the 50's out of Peshawar then they could easily operate Gripen. This kind of statement was also given at the time PAF evaluated the Eurofighter Typhoon...
> 
> Russia would have done some thing like that for China but it would have been asking too much from them for PAF. Now the things are very different. At the time PAF and Pakistan was too much into USA, There were many things that could have been taken as US were in a situation they did not like in Afghanistan and could have given some stuff like the F-18's and its engine if PAF would have asked or even the same PW110 engines as F-16's but they never asked them. They were willing to remove the sanctions because it was in their interest and they did offer some other stuff...


Do you know f-18s were evaluated by paf back in 80s but instead paf opted f16? So why would have paf gone with the similar aircraft after approx 20 years, there was a reason for not purchasing it at first place. And the idea of not asking US engines was a good one, if we would have gotten engines from US it would have again made us totally dependent on US and the idea of being independent would have totally gone down the drain... paf played smartly, they only went for the things whose alternative wasn't available with China... the reason for ordering more f16s in limited numbers not only paved the way for getting hands onto latest American missiles but also for mlu kits and old f16s...


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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> Agreed but with one proviso. If you have the aircraft in your inventory already then it makes sense. If you dont have the aircraft why increase your workload and the complexity of inducting a new platform when it does not bring anything new on to the table. The next acquisition should be a fifth generation fighter rather than wasting money on a 4th generation fighter. On that basis to me more 16s make more sense but J10 does not.
> J11is however a different kettle of fish altogether and its acquisition for the naval role would be a sensible role PROVIDED the navy has enough resources to induct run and support the project. As the resources are not there I would have thought, we would continue developing JFT and acquire used/new 16s as time allows.
> I also think we should replace the PGs with JFT for commonality of platcorms and rely on the 2 and wait for the J31/equivalent fighter.
> Araz


There are some in favor and some against... Here the issue is how fast is the development process from 5th to 6th gen.
What we know is that drones have been made of existing fighter aircraft for target practice in the past hence 5th gen pilotless aircraft is called 6th gen.

If you consider this then can one skip 5th gen by acquiring a cheaper 4++ fighter and then directly induct 6th gen when they are mature and cheaper.

This open up a new pandora box...



Mani2020 said:


> Jf17 b with twin engines


It is a mistake I ment JF-17 B (twin seat)



Mani2020 said:


> Jf17 b with twin engines. now where did that come from? I have no idea to be honest. Must be a hypothetical aircraft similar to jf17 stealth version as speculated by fanboys but had no reality
> 
> 
> Do you know f-18s were evaluated by paf back in 80s but instead paf opted f16? So why would have paf gone with the similar aircraft after approx 20 years, there was a reason for not purchasing it at first place. And the idea of not asking US engines was a good one, if we would have gotten engines from US it would have again made us totally dependent on US and the idea of being independent would have totally gone down the drain... paf played smartly, they only went for the things whose alternative wasn't available with China... the reason for ordering more f16s in limited numbers not only paved the way for getting hands onto latest American missiles but also for mlu kits and old f16s...


I know the reasons why F-18's were refused for the F-16's. However the new F-18's are no way comparable to the original ones. F-15's though they were not offered to Pakistan in the 80's were also offered later on in the 2000's and again recently but have been rejected because of high operating costs.

I agree F-16's have been the back bone of Pakistan Air Force and they have preferred them over the Mirage 2000's...Though there are many who think not taking M2K's was a mistake as they lost the option of losing out on French technology which they had with the Mirage III & V's.

If licence production of US made engines was signed then like Iran they could have continued building them as new sanctions would not have had retrospective effect.

I agree export orders would have been a problem...


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## Mani2020

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There are some in favor and some against... Here the issue is how fast is the development process from 5th to 6th gen.
> What we know is that drones have been made of existing fighter aircraft for target practice in the past hence 5th gen pilotless aircraft is called 6th gen.
> 
> If you consider this then can one skip 5th gen by acquiring a cheaper 4++ fighter and then directly induct 6th gen when they are mature and cheaper.
> 
> This open up a new pandora box...
> 
> 
> It is a mistake I ment JF-17 B (twin seat)
> 
> 
> I know the reasons why F-18's were refused for the F-16's. However the new F-18's are no way comparable to the original ones. F-15's though they were not offered to Pakistan in the 80's were also offered later on in the 2000's and again recently but have been rejected because of high operating costs.
> 
> I agree F-16's have been the back bone of Pakistan Air Force and they have preferred them over the Mirage 2000's...Though there are many who think not taking M2K's was a mistake as they lost the option of losing out on French technology which they had with the Mirage III & V's.
> 
> If licence production of US made engines was signed then like Iran they could have continued building them as new sanctions would not have had retrospective effect.
> 
> I agree export orders would have been a problem...


You yourself have answered your query in last line of your post...

Being offered is one thing and the ability to afford it is another.. even paf was offered Rafael and eurofighter but we couldn't simply afford them or at least couldn't afford them in large numbers similar quantity of just 18 as in case of f16s wouldn't have made sense in case of f-15 typhoon or rafale... it made sense for f16s because we were operating them already

Regarding mirage 2000s yes that was an opportunity missed we should have bought them back then independent of f16s


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## Mo12

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Jf-17 B (Dual seat) is based on french snecma engines so PAF is looking to have two different engines.



How will a Chinese jet get a French engine?

It will be very difficult to get a fighter jet engine, from all countries that Pakistan can use in the Chinese jets.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mani2020 said:


> it made sense for f16s because we were operating them already



Ideal situation could be if PAF is able to get a total of 50 Block 50/52's along with the available aircraft bringing total number of F-16's to 146-150 aircraft.



Mo12 said:


> How will a Chinese jet get a French engine?
> 
> It will be very difficult to get a fighter jet engine, from all countries that Pakistan can use in the Chinese jets.


Deal is already signed...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Can we see a copy of the contract so raw can verify


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There are some in favor and some against... Here the issue is how fast is the development process from 5th to 6th gen.
> What we know is that drones have been made of existing fighter aircraft for target practice in the past hence 5th gen pilotless aircraft is called 6th gen.
> 
> If you consider this then can one skip 5th gen by acquiring a cheaper 4++ fighter and then directly induct 6th gen when they are mature and cheaper.
> 
> This open up a new pandora box...
> 
> 
> It is a mistake I ment JF-17 B (twin seat)
> 
> 
> I know the reasons why F-18's were refused for the F-16's. However the new F-18's are no way comparable to the original ones. F-15's though they were not offered to Pakistan in the 80's were also offered later on in the 2000's and again recently but have been rejected because of high operating costs.
> 
> I agree F-16's have been the back bone of Pakistan Air Force and they have preferred them over the Mirage 2000's...Though there are many who think not taking M2K's was a mistake as they lost the option of losing out on French technology which they had with the Mirage III & V's.
> 
> If licence production of US made engines was signed then like Iran they could have continued building them as new sanctions would not have had retrospective effect.
> 
> I agree export orders would have been a problem...


i agree with most of what you said but f15's offered to pakistan? not a chance i think boeing would not even bother offering it as pakistan can't even afford it and it would look bad on Boeing to even offer it to Pakistan. no just no.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Ideal situation could be if PAF is able to get a total of 50 Block 50/52's along with the available aircraft bringing total number of F-16's to 146-150 aircraft.
> 
> 
> Deal is already signed...





Mo12 said:


> How will a Chinese jet get a French engine?
> 
> It will be very difficult to get a fighter jet engine, from all countries that Pakistan can use in the Chinese jets.


what engine are you thinking of? the m88 is way to under powered for a jf-17. the m88 is made for a dual engined jet



Mo12 said:


> How will a Chinese jet get a French engine?
> 
> It will be very difficult to get a fighter jet engine, from all countries that Pakistan can use in the Chinese jets.


you must be mistaken i heard that saudi arabia may want the jf17 with ej200 engines because they already operate them with the typhoon.
JF-17 Presses On After News of Egypt's Plans


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> what engine are you thinking of? the m88 is way to under powered for a jf-17. the m88 is made for a dual engined jet


Yes...
This engine has been chosen because of 100kg lower weight then the one currently being used in the JF-17. 
Accommodates the second Pilot. 



blue marlin said:


> i agree with most of what you said but f15's offered to pakistan? not a chance i think boeing would not even bother offering it as pakistan can't even afford it and it would look bad on Boeing to even offer it to Pakistan. no just no.



There are many references available on PDF regarding F-15 offers...Boeing X32 was offered by President Bush but it was refused...


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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> There are some in favor and some against... Here the issue is how fast is the development process from 5th to 6th gen.
> What we know is that drones have been made of existing fighter aircraft for target practice in the past hence 5th gen pilotless aircraft is called 6th gen.
> 
> If you consider this then can one skip 5th gen by acquiring a cheaper 4++ fighter and then directly induct 6th gen when they are mature and cheaper.
> 
> This open up a new pandora box...
> 
> 
> It is a mistake I ment JF-17 B (twin seat)
> 
> 
> I know the reasons why F-18's were refused for the F-16's. However the new F-18's are no way comparable to the original ones. F-15's though they were not offered to Pakistan in the 80's were also offered later on in the 2000's and again recently but have been rejected because of high operating costs.
> 
> I agree F-16's have been the back bone of Pakistan Air Force and they have preferred them over the Mirage 2000's...Though there are many who think not taking M2K's was a mistake as they lost the option of losing out on French technology which they had with the Mirage III & V's.
> 
> If licence production of US made engines was signed then like Iran they could have continued building them as new sanctions would not have had retrospective effect.
> 
> I agree export orders would have been a problem...


I agree that the transition from 5th to 6th generation will not take long. However we need to get on the band wagon of the 5th generation fighter as the stealth technology on which the next generation fighters will be based needs to be acquired along with satellite cover. I don't want to sound heartless but the value of life in Pakistan is too low for the powers that be to worry too much about it. it is however a futile debate as no one can judge the speed at which technology is growing and maturing.
The M2k saga is a sorry story in the history of PAF. However we could either have paid through our noses to get an aircraft which we would have been crying about as it would have become prohibitively expensive to maintain as some of the other Air arms have found out or wait and see how the waters flow. As has been related the offer was accepted 90 days after the fall of the first BB government but the french chose to withdraw the offer. To me it sounds like connivance on both the Pakistani and the french sides to fleece us. Interestingly PAF has re evaluated the M2K on 3 successive times since and opted not to buy it. If we had gone for it it would have become pointless developing JFT and PAF rightly chose to go for its own aircraft with the advantage of upgradability and affordability.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Yes...
> This engine has been chosen because of 100kg lower weight then the one currently being used in the JF-17.
> Accommodates the second Pilot.
> 
> 
> 
> There are many references available on PDF regarding F-15 offers...Boeing X32 was offered by President Bush but it was refused...




If PAF chooses a foreign engine other than the RD93 series I personally think it would only be for a buyer and not for itself. This is my personal opinion as the engine change would incur a cost in time and money. PAF would rather wait for a better engine from the same source than go for an EU engine to preserve its independance. However if someone wants to pay for it that's fine.
Araz

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## al_asad_al_mulk

@Zarvan Dear little more from my side see china is not inducting single JF-17 why because J-10 they already inducted and JF-17 & J-10 quite comparable so that the same case with PAF they will not induct or no more interested in J-10 same reason both air crafts fall in same category. Comment Pls


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## Zarvan

al_asad_al_mulk said:


> @Zarvan Dear little more from my side see china is not inducting single JF-17 why because J-10 they already inducted and JF-17 & J-10 quite comparable so that the same case with PAF they will not induct or no more interested in J-10 same reason both air crafts fall in same category. Comment Pls


China never planned to induct JF-17 it was solely build for Pakistan and every 4th Generation Fighter is comparable to each other Mr still we are buying more JF-17 and F-16 and also J-10 B would also come.


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## al_asad_al_mulk

@Zarvan i highly doubt PAF will induct J-10 unless China offer it much less price or free as a Gift


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## AliWaqar

@Zarvan Bhai J10b Apka howa  seriously mujhy tu lagta ha itna pyar apko f16 ya jf17 sy nai hai jitnapko J10b sy hAi @al_asad_al_mulk Bhai ap lay lainy do unko J10b

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## al_asad_al_mulk

AliWaqar said:


> @Zarvan Bhai J10b Apka howa  seriously mujhy tu lagta ha itna pyar apko f16 ya jf17 sy nai hai jitnapko J10b sy hAi @al_asad_al_mulk Bhai ap lay lainy do unko J10b


Thats nice ok @Zarvan bhai app le lo ab tu sifarish bhi aa gyi koi baat nahien filhaal plastic wala chalay gha LOLS

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## Zarvan

AliWaqar said:


> @Zarvan Bhai J10b Apka howa  seriously mujhy tu lagta ha itna pyar apko f16 ya jf17 sy nai hai jitnapko J10b sy hAi @al_asad_al_mulk Bhai ap lay lainy do unko J10b


J-10 B would come as for JF-17 and F-16 more of them will also come

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## AliWaqar

jo b aye mulk k liye best hona chahiye


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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> However we need to get on the band wagon of the 5th generation fighter as the stealth technology on which the next generation fighters will be based needs to be acquired along with satellite cover.



Bro, if it is only for acquiring stealth technology then Pakistan should invest in Turkish Fighter project as that would give a much superior western technology than that China could offer. 

If it is for the radar absorbent paint then that is also easily available from USA by procuring F-15's or F-18's...


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## Zarvan

A Facebook page wings of Asia has claimed Pakistan and Russia has started to prepare a contract for delivery of SU-35 to Pakistan


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> A Facebook page wings of Asia has claimed Pakistan and Russia has started to prepare a contract for delivery of SU-35 to Pakistan


can you show me the link please?



blue marlin said:


> can you show me the link please?


most likely its fake. but hey you never know. russia may give Pakistan a good deal. but i doubt it.

@Zarvan Pakistan orders Su-35 fighter jets from Russia | Defence blog


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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> can you show me the link please?
> 
> 
> most likely its fake. but hey you never know. russia may give Pakistan a good deal. but i doubt it.
> 
> @Zarvan Pakistan orders Su-35 fighter jets from Russia | Defence blog


Wings of Asia's Photos


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> Wings of Asia's Photos


what do you personally think? do you believe if such as deal will accrue. and if such a deal happens will it only be for 24 or for more in the future?


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## ArsalanKhan21

Zarvan said:


> J-10 B would come as for JF-17 and F-16 more of them will also come



I think the J-10C is better option for the PAF as China will also be ending the J-10B production and starting J-10C.

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## Zarvan

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> I think the J-10C is better option for the PAF as China will also be ending the J-10B production and starting J-10C.


I agree if J-10 C is fully ready as far as I see is J-10 B or C and F-16 and JF-17 should be bought for role of defending Pakistani Air Space, and SU-35 should be bought to do massive strikes inside enemy territory. @blue marlin I hope it does but for at least 3 squadrons with 18 Jets in each squadron @Horus @balixd

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## Blue Marlin

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> I think the J-10C is better option for the PAF as China will also be ending the J-10B production and starting J-10C.


it too early for j10c production its only been a year since they started mass production for j10b


Zarvan said:


> I agree if J-10 C is fully ready as I see is J-10 B or C and F-16 and JF-17 should be bought for role of defending Pakistani Air Space and SU-35 should be bought to do massive strikes inside enemy territory. @blue marlin I hope it does but for at least 3 squadrons with 18 Jets in each squadron


well said Pakistan is a defensive country, but its ok to go naughty and have a little offensive.


----------



## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> it too early for j10c production its only been a year since they started mass production for j10b
> 
> well said Pakistan is a defensive country, but its ok to go naughty and have a little offensive.


Best defense is always best offence enough of this defensive policy


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## Blue Marlin

blue marlin said:


> it too early for j10c production its only been a year since they started mass production for j10b
> 
> well said Pakistan is a defensive country, but its ok to go naughty and have a little offensive.


54 is a good number but since your at 3 squadrons make it 4 at 72 jets or 80 back-up and trainers. but thats pushing it.



Zarvan said:


> Best defense is always best offence enough of this defensive policy


cant agree with you any more. now all we have to do is pitch the idea/concept to Raheel Sharif and see if he will reevaluate the armed forces stance. I'm British so you will have to do it

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## Zarvan

blue marlin said:


> 54 is a good number but since your at 3 squadrons make it 4 at 72 jets or 80 back-up and trainers. but thats pushing it.
> 
> 
> cant agree with you any more. now all we have to do is pitch the idea/concept to Raheel Sharif and see if he will reevaluate the armed forces stance.


Budget is issue if we had a budget like of Saudi Arabia than I would want 150 SU-35 and 180 J-10B or C in our Air Force and lot more F-16 but our budget sucks


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## VelocuR

J-10B chapter is closed now. Don't need same argument. 

Pakistan is only focus on JF-17 Block 2 & 3 and FC-31, that's it. 

No funds available than that.


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> Budget is issue if we had a budget like of Saudi Arabia than I would want 150 SU-35 and 180 J-10B or C in our Air Force and lot more F-16 but our budget sucks


one day things will change for you. thats right after you deal with the ttp and the balochistan militant problem and get the economy going.

ok lets say you have a luge amount of money.
providing 1 squadron(sq) = 18 jets
b and t = back up and training


su35 9 sq=162 +8 for bandt= 170
j10b/c 15 sq=270 +8 for bandt = 278 remember you have a huge amount of money you need a lot of mmrc jets
f16's as many as you can get your hands on treat it like the rose program with the mirage


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## ArsalanKhan21

blue marlin said:


> it too early for j10c production its only been a year since they started mass production for j10b



Even we place the order today it would be 12-18 months for deliveries to start. I don't see Pakistan placing the order in 2015.



VelocuR said:


> J-10B chapter is closed now. Don't need same argument. Pakistan is only focus on JF-17 Block 2 & 3 and FC-31, that's it. No funds available than that.



The fifth generation fighters will take time to develop. Even the F-35 is facing problems. We need J-10C in meantime.

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## Blue Marlin

ArsalanKhan21 said:


> Even we place the order today it would be 12-18 months for deliveries to start. I don't see Pakistan placing the order in 2015.


well technically they have signed for 36 or 2 squadrons and a price of 1.4 billion or 38 million each they were negations for deliveries only just last year


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> well said Pakistan is a defensive country, but its ok to go naughty and have a little offensive.



Best form of defense is offensive defense 



Zarvan said:


> A Facebook page wings of Asia has claimed Pakistan and Russia has started to prepare a contract for delivery of SU-35 to Pakistan





blue marlin said:


> what do you personally think? do you believe if such as deal will accrue. and if such a deal happens will it only be for 24 or for more in the future?



Talks if real then they are in very early stage hence if something does mature it will be be in a similar time frame of Indian Rafale order. However these aircraft would be delivered before the Indian Rafales.



Zarvan said:


> Budget is issue if we had a budget like of Saudi Arabia than I would want 150 SU-35 and 180 J-10B or C in our Air Force and lot more F-16 but our budget sucks


Zarvan if it was like RSA's then Eurofighter or F-35 would have been ordered. With a guarantee no sanctions


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## Zarvan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Best form of defense is offensive defense
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Talks if real then they are in very early stage hence if something does mature it will be be in a similar time frame of Indian Rafale order. However these aircraft would be delivered before the Indian Rafales.
> 
> 
> Zarvan if it was like RSA's then Eurofighter or F-35 would have been ordered. With a guarantee no sanctions


Well EuroFighter Yes but F-35 still difficult but would love to have them but even better if one day USA agrees to sell F-22


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## Mani2020

Zarvan said:


> Well EuroFighter Yes but F-35 still difficult but would love to have them but even better if one day USA agrees to sell F-22



Add some f-15 silent eagles, su-35, Mig-35, J-11 , J-15, J-16, F-18, B-2 and Rafale too and then top it up with J-20 and T-50 . Now we have a nice dish for fanboys who do day dreaming.


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## Zarvan

Mani2020 said:


> Add some f-15 silent eagles, su-35, Mig-35, J-11 , J-15, J-16, F-18, B-2 and Rafale too and then top it up with J-20 and T-50 . Now we have a nice dish for fanboys who do day dreaming.


With 80 Billion dollar budget if we had that 5 4.5 Generation would have been their in PAF but our budget sucks. That is what I was saying you first check what a person was saying than talk.


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## Mani2020

Zarvan said:


> With 80 Billion dollar budget if we had that 5 4.5 Generation would have been their in PAF but our budget sucks. That is what I was saying you first check what a person was saying than talk.


We dont even have enough budget to buy Eurofighter in numbers and you were talking about the possibility of f-35 (can't afford) and f-22 ( a big big no, USA will never offer it to even her allies).

And lots of ifs mate...


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## Zarvan

Mani2020 said:


> We dont even have enough budget to buy Eurofighter in numbers and you were talking about the possibility of f-35 (can't afford) and f-22 ( a big big no, USA will never offer it to even her allies).
> 
> And lots of ifs mate...


I said if we had at least 80 billion dollars in budget not with current budget.


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## HAIDER

*China’s J-10B Fighter More Advanced Than Indian Su-30, Japanese F-15J aircraft: Chinese Expert *


China’s J-10B fighter is more advanced than the Su-30 and the F-15J aircraft in service with India and Japan respectively and the 3.5 generation American fighters deployed in the Asia-Pacific.

A Chinese expert quoted in China Military Online claimed that the medium-scale 3.5-generation J-10B fighter has 19 tons of maximum take-off weight, a bomb load between 6 and 8 tons, a combat radius of about 1,000 kilometres and a flight speed between 1 and 1.5 mach.

The J-10B fighter is equipped with active electronically scanning phased-array radar and is capable of carrying beyond visual range air-to-air missiles. Zhang Zhaozhong, a military expert at the National Defense University (NDU) was quoted as saying that the J-10B fighter is at least 30 per cent better than the J-10A fighter in overall performance.

The lower nose of the J-10B fighter allows pilots to have a broader field of vision, and the active phased-array radar with a diameter of about one meter mounted inside the oblate nose part of the fighter, electronic jammer and searching and tracking device mounted outside the fighter cabin, upgrade the fighter’s electronic information system performance, Zhang was quoted as saying.

In addition to short-range dogfight ammunition, the J-10B fighter can carry medium-range interception missiles with a firing range of tens of kilometres, and at the same time, it is capable of attacking ground targets.

Therefore, its combat effectiveness is upgraded with an overall performance improvement of over 30 percent as compared with that of the J-10A fighter, Zhang introduced.

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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> Well EuroFighter Yes but F-35 still difficult but would love to have them but even better if one day USA agrees to sell F-22


ok easy there. japan and Israel lobbied the US government for the f22. just dont say f22 for export.

the eurofighter? well if you have the money then yes. they are currently dong aerodynamic enhancements to the airframe to make it even more agile. and there is the option of thrust-vectoring with more powerful new spec ej200 engines. lets just say this modified typhoon will dance with the su35 any day of the week.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Best form of defense is offensive defense
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Talks if real then they are in very early stage hence if something does mature it will be be in a similar time frame of Indian Rafale order. However these aircraft would be delivered before the Indian Rafales.
> 
> 
> Zarvan if it was like RSA's then Eurofighter or F-35 would have been ordered. With a guarantee no sanctions


f35 is restricted to certain countries . it would have been the eurofighter typhoon.


----------



## princefaisal

HAIDER said:


> *China’s J-10B Fighter More Advanced Than Indian Su-30, Japanese F-15J aircraft: Chinese Expert *
> 
> 
> China’s J-10B fighter is more advanced than the Su-30 and the F-15J aircraft in service with India and Japan respectively and the 3.5 generation American fighters deployed in the Asia-Pacific.
> 
> A Chinese expert quoted in China Military Online claimed that the medium-scale 3.5-generation J-10B fighter has 19 tons of maximum take-off weight, a bomb load between 6 and 8 tons, a combat radius of about 1,000 kilometres and a flight speed between 1 and 1.5 mach.
> 
> The J-10B fighter is equipped with active electronically scanning phased-array radar and is capable of carrying beyond visual range air-to-air missiles. Zhang Zhaozhong, a military expert at the National Defense University (NDU) was quoted as saying that the J-10B fighter is at least 30 per cent better than the J-10A fighter in overall performance.
> 
> The lower nose of the J-10B fighter allows pilots to have a broader field of vision, and the active phased-array radar with a diameter of about one meter mounted inside the oblate nose part of the fighter, electronic jammer and searching and tracking device mounted outside the fighter cabin, upgrade the fighter’s electronic information system performance, Zhang was quoted as saying.
> 
> In addition to short-range dogfight ammunition, the J-10B fighter can carry medium-range interception missiles with a firing range of tens of kilometres, and at the same time, it is capable of attacking ground targets.
> 
> Therefore, its combat effectiveness is upgraded with an overall performance improvement of over 30 percent as compared with that of the J-10A fighter, Zhang introduced.


Dil ko jalana chod diya jai.


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## AliWaqar

even Buraq is more advance the jf17 ab khush ho


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## Patriot Pakistani

but money depends


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## Mughal-Prince

Zarvan said:


> Budget is issue if we had a budget like of Saudi Arabia than I would want 150 SU-35 and 180 J-10B or C in our Air Force and lot more F-16 but our budget sucks


120 tailored SU35 with our subsystems,

240 tailored J-10 P,

least 120 F-31 fully customised,

lots and lots of JFT Block-3

an airforce which is ready at least with its 84% fleet available any given time  thats what I call offensive defence


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Mughal-Prince said:


> 120 tailored SU35 with our subsystems,
> 
> 240 tailored J-10 P,
> 
> least 120 F-31 fully customised,
> 
> lots and lots of JFT Block-3
> 
> an airforce which is ready at least with its 84% fleet available any given time  thats what I call offensive defence


You are joining the Nashan club?

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## black-hawk_101

What About J-31s?


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## araz

black-hawk_101 said:


> What About J-31s?


It will come when it is ready and PAF wants it. Currently it is a long way away from induction.


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## Mughal-Prince

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> You are joining the Nashan club?



Nah Nishan is the champ no buddy can beat him. M just mental mastrubating :p

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Musharaf hota to ab tak , 10 F22 P frigates aur 36 J10B already Pakistan main hotain


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## AFlover

Hi Experts
How advance is the Chinese AESA radar that they r using in J10B if we compare it with the one in SU30s or in Grippen NG r Rafael 
PAF does not have any aesa in any fighter so is it worth getting same easa of J10B or there is any available other than Chinese?


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## [--Leo--]

i have heard many times they are going for 5th generation so j10b deal is now dead


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Sukhoi-35 is appropriate for Pakistan , we need a Plane that has FIRE POWER loaded and great ability,

5th Generation can wait 10-16 years

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## Super Falcon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Musharaf hota to ab tak , 10 F22 P frigates aur 36 J10B already Pakistan main hotain


Personally im against mushy who was directly supporter of enemy of nation mqm and still his mouth shut on mqm 

We need systems of different type dont rely on one type of system

70 F 16. Dont need to buy more
36 J 10. We buy
150 JF 17. We have them
30 SU 35. Buy them now until we get J 31
50 to 70 J 31. In next 5 to 8 years start buying

We need have answers to all indian question in skies india itching to send jets to bomb pak cities and we seen their statement better have systems whom they fear not 

After rafale SU 30 Mig 29K Mirage 2009 and pakfa
Paf relying on just F 16 and jf 17 is not wise for paf to stay relax SU 35 is need of hour with J 10 we are good to go for next 15 years without any induction after it J 31 we can have it after it is mature


And i tell you all india are going for F 35 I have some reports thats why they scrap rafale to 36 

F 35 under table nego going on between US govt and Modi

F 35 IAF looking to buy this is major news im telling you all

And onde more news india looking to buy aircraft carrier from united states too negotitation underway


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## macnurv

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Musharaf hota to ab tak , 10 F22 P frigates aur 36 J10B already Pakistan main hotain



Accha, he ruled for 8 years and all I saw were TTP right and left.


----------



## Kompromat

Nice laundry list.




Super Falcon said:


> Personally im against mushy who was directly supporter of enemy of nation mqm and still his mouth shut on mqm
> 
> We need systems of different type dont rely on one type of system
> 
> 70 F 16. Dont need to buy more
> 36 J 10. We buy
> 150 JF 17. We have them
> 30 SU 35. Buy them now until we get J 31
> 50 to 70 J 31. In next 5 to 8 years start buying
> 
> We need have answers to all indian question in skies india itching to send jets to bomb pak cities and we seen their statement better have systems whom they fear not
> 
> After rafale SU 30 Mig 29K Mirage 2009 and pakfa
> Paf relying on just F 16 and jf 17 is not wise for paf to stay relax SU 35 is need of hour with J 10 we are good to go for next 15 years without any induction after it J 31 we can have it after it is mature
> 
> 
> And i tell you all india are going for F 35 I have some reports thats why they scrap rafale to 36
> 
> F 35 under table nego going on between US govt and Modi
> 
> F 35 IAF looking to buy this is major news im telling you all
> 
> And onde more news india looking to buy aircraft carrier from united states too negotitation underway

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> Nice laundry list.


Well this is not a laundry list it seem things are going that way. Only difference is we would not go for two more 4.5 Generation platform but one. What I know is PAF is looking for third 4.5 Generation platform, and SU-35 is the strongest candidate.

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## Super Falcon

Zarvan said:


> Well this is not a laundry list it seem things are going that way. Only difference is we would not go for two more 4.5 Generation platform but one. What I know is PAF is looking for third 4.5 Generation platform, and SU-35 is the strongest candidate.


Thank you zarvan for ur kind reply

It might be laundry list for u Horus.
We need SU 35 IAF getting stronger day by day india is negotiating for F 35 this is why they go for 36 rafale fighter jet out of 126

Israel forced india not to go for rafale but F 35 becoz israel will also will buy F 35 so they both help each other maintaining it israel will get TOT also as they did with F 16


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## Irfan Baloch

Mughal-Prince said:


> *120 tailored SU35 with our subsystems,*
> 
> 240 tailored J-10 P,
> 
> least 120 F-31 fully customised,
> 
> lots and lots of JFT Block-3
> 
> an airforce which is ready at least with its 84% fleet available any given time  thats what I call offensive defence


SU 35 na hoay chinese battery chargers hoay. 


gull e koi nai

we got more chance of getting F-35 than SU 35.. (which means both have nill chance)

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## Mughal-Prince

Irfan Baloch said:


> SU 35 na hoay chinese battery chargers hoay.
> 
> 
> gull e koi nai
> 
> we got more chance of getting F-35 than SU 35.. (which means both have nill chance)



Aray yaar Irfan Bhai sub upni upni list dey Rahay they main nay bhi pakra di kay Zara Imtiaz tak ja rahay ho tau thoray bauhut SU-35 paker laina  Sukhoi na ho gaya pakoray ho gaye

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## Kompromat

There will be no J-10B
There will be no Su-35

Thanks

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> There will be no J-10B
> There will be no Su-35
> 
> Thanks


Sir and I say there would be at least one of them in PAF

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## Indus Falcon

Zarvan said:


> Sir and I say there would be at least one of them in PAF


Any insider info you would like to share Jawan?


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## Kompromat

JF-17 in three blocks
F-16s
FC-31 inducted in 2020, numbers will build up and eventually replace the F-16s in the 2030s.

That leaves PAF with a dedicated GROUND ATTACK aircraft left out from the fleet, which one that would be is open to debate.



Zarvan said:


> Sir and I say there would be at least one of them in PAF

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## Zarvan

Horus said:


> JF-17 in three blocks
> F-16s
> FC-31 inducted in 2020, numbers will build up and eventually replace the F-16s in the 2030s.
> 
> That leaves PAF with a dedicated GROUND ATTACK aircraft left out from the fleet, which one that would be is open to debate.


Sir I don't know about that but I know PAF is looking for a third 4.5 Generation platform.

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## Indus Falcon

Horus said:


> JF-17 in three blocks
> F-16s
> FC-31 inducted in 2020, numbers will build up and eventually replace the F-16s in the 2030s.
> 
> That leaves PAF with a dedicated GROUND ATTACK aircraft left out from the fleet, which one that would be is open to debate.



Ground Attack OR Combat Air Support?


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## IndoUS

Wouldn't it be better to divert this money into making a newer twin engine maybe version of JF-17 since PAF is already using it and the engineers already have access to the fighter. Would be a good point to create all the necessary infra. for future programs.


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## Super Falcon

If we dont buy stop gap fighter jet we loose air war loosing air war means we lost entire war and probleum is that J 31 is not yet confirmed as our rdluctant PAF we knew what they did with J 10 induction similar will happen to J 31 as our record J 31 wont come before 2025 so we need fighter jet like SU 35

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J10B is a lovely plane great replacement for our Mirages and adds some agility in airforce


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## Mo12

Zarvan said:


> Budget is issue if we had a budget like of Saudi Arabia than I would want 150 SU-35 and 180 J-10B or C in our Air Force and lot more F-16 but our budget sucks


Yes, your economy is to tiny to support it.

Spending all this money and in the last 10 years, it has been terrorists that is killing Pakistanis the most.

Jets will do nothing against terrorists.


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## chinazun

support pakistan forever

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## Zarvan

Mo12 said:


> Yes, your economy is to tiny to support it.
> 
> Spending all this money and in the last 10 years, it has been terrorists that is killing Pakistanis the most.
> 
> Jets will do nothing against terrorists.


Jets have done a lot and these jets will be for you.

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## Irfan Baloch

IndoUS said:


> Wouldn't it be better to divert this money into making a newer twin engine maybe version of JF-17 since PAF is already using it and the engineers already have access to the fighter. Would be a good point to create all the necessary infra. for future programs.


a valid point from a layman (like me) point of view

JF 17 is meant to be a low cost medium tech light fighter
also a twin engine is against the PAF single engine policy

a twin engine aircraft will be nothing like its single engine version, its not the matter of expanding the size of fuselage to accommodate two engines, aeronautics is a complex science and it will need complete redrawing of the whole place from tip to the tail. in order to do that PAF will have better alternatives to look as references with 2 engine planes in the world.

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## Blue Marlin

Horus said:


> Nice laundry list.


you cant get that your local tesco.


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## RAMPAGE

Irfan Baloch said:


> a twin engine is against the PAF single engine policy


Pray tell, where did you read this policy?


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## Mughal-Prince

Horus said:


> There will be no J-10B
> There will be no Su-35
> 
> Thanks



OOnaen Ooonaen Nahin Maint tau do-no loon ga


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## Super Falcon

J 10 might be secret like FM 90

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## princefaisal

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> J10B is a lovely plane great replacement for our Mirages and adds some agility in airforce


J-10b and F-16 combination will be deadly for Su-30 and Rafale.


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Sir I don't know about that but I know PAF is looking for a third 4.5 Generation platform.


Wake up from your dream Mr ZARVAN, give me source that PAF is looking for a what? Third 4.5 gen fighter, as for your information we have only one 4.5 gen fighter that is F-16 blk-52, JF+17 blk-1 and blk-2 can't count as 4.5 gen fighter, blk-1 and blk-2 count as 4 and 4.3 gen fighter respectively, as for J-10b their is blk-3 is coming their capablities of both fighters are almost same and as SU-35 just one word impossible, so Mr ZARVAN get rid of your assumptions and wishful thinking


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> Wake up from your dream Mr ZARVAN, give me source that PAF is looking for a what? Third 4.5 gen fighter, as for your information we have only one 4.5 gen fighter that is F-16 blk-52, JF+17 blk-1 and blk-2 can't count as 4.5 gen fighter, blk-1 and blk-2 count as 4 and 4.3 gen fighter respectively, as for J-10b their is blk-3 is coming their capablities of both fighters are almost same and as SU-35 just one word impossible, so Mr ZARVAN get rid of your assumptions and wishful thinking


These are not assumptions. PAF is looking for third 4.5 Generation platform.


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> These are not assumptions. PAF is looking for third 4.5 Generation platform.


Then give me a prove, you live in dreams not in realty


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> Then give me a prove, you live in dreams not in realty


The work is quietly being done you would know it when they would come


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## Blue Marlin

Zarvan said:


> The work is quietly being done you would know it when they would come


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> The work is quietly being done you would know it when they would come


Are you in PAF think tank management? You knows everything about purchasing plans of PAF and no other person other than you don't know what is PAF thinking, oh I forget that PAF top brass is reaval their purchasing plan to you to put these fake news on PDF. Their no funds available for purchasing these expensive toys instead they are focasing JF-17 blk-3 which are truly 4.5 gen figher. So wake up Mr ZARVAN from your fantacy land


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> Are you in PAF think tank management? You knows everything about purchasing plans of PAF and no other person other than you don't know what is PAF thinking, oh I forget that PAF top brass is reaval their purchasing plan to you to put these fake news on PDF. Their no funds available for purchasing these expensive toys instead they are focasing JF-17 blk-3 which are truly 4.5 gen figher. So wake up Mr ZARVAN from your fantacy land


I am already awake that is why I am telling you Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform before going for 5th Generation


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> I am already awake that is why I am telling you Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform before going for 5th Generation


Yeah yeah whatever you think go live on your fantasy land assumptions wishful thinking and wet dreams




Zarvan said:


> I am already awake that is why I am telling you Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform before going for 5th Generation


And who is telling you that PAF is looking for another 4.5 gen fighter? PAF air Chief



Zarvan said:


> I am already awake that is why I am telling you Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform before going for 5th Generation


You are acting like a 12 year old kid without backup of your claims


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## HariPrasad

This is good. Paksitan should buy the jet with Russian engine only. It is also nice to here that balloon of indigenous engine and performing better than AL31 is blown off now. AL 31 is a good engine and it will give a reliability to the jet.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> View attachment 246064


LOL


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## Ultima Thule

HariPrasad said:


> This is good. Paksitan should buy the jet with Russian engine only. It is also nice to here that balloon of indigenous engine and performing better than AL31 is blown off now. AL 31 is a good engine and it will give a reliability to the jet.


yes you are on he spot Mr, china has to be developed fully matured engine for their airforce, engine tech is most complex things to develop for a fighter and china just entering the field of engine development, their is only 5 or 6 countries to develop fully matured engine, so your are basically right


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## Blue Marlin

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> LOL


im right though aren't i


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## Super Falcon

Are you sure pak buy J 10


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> im right though aren't i


He is a big mouth... probably more a child...


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## Thunder.Storm

what is the difference between 4++ and 4.5 gen fighter?


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## Ultima Thule

Thunder.Storm said:


> what is the difference between 4++ and 4.5 gen fighter?


Their is no clear difference between 4++ and 4.5 gen fighter, earlier blocks of F-16, F-15, F-18, SU-27 is assume to be 4 or 4++ gen fighters, where as later blocks of these fighter and EFT, RAFALE, GRIPEN, J-10b, JF-17 block-3 is assume to be 4.5 gen fighters

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## Basel

pakistanipower said:


> Are you in PAF think tank management? You knows everything about purchasing plans of PAF and no other person other than you don't know what is PAF thinking, oh I forget that PAF top brass is reaval their purchasing plan to you to put these fake news on PDF. Their no funds available for purchasing these expensive toys instead they are focasing JF-17 blk-3 which are truly 4.5 gen figher. So wake up Mr ZARVAN from your fantacy land



If PAF is looking for new jet than most pilots will know directly or indirectly because they will evaluate it on paper and practically, and this can spread in force to others as it is normal procedure not a top secret stuff, until ordered to be kept secret by top brass, this how civilians can came to know too as they have relatives in air force or they work their as civilian staff.


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## Ultima Thule

Basel said:


> If PAF is looking for new jet than most pilots will know directly or indirectly because they will evaluate it on paper and practically, and this can spread in force to others as it is normal procedure not a top secret stuff, until ordered to be kept secret by top brass, this how civilians can came to know too as they have relatives in air force or they work their as civilian staff.


OK sir I understand your point but where are the money to purchase these expensive toys


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## Blue Marlin

Basel said:


> If PAF is looking for new jet than most pilots will know directly or indirectly because they will evaluate it on paper and practically, and this can spread in force to others as it is normal procedure not a top secret stuff, until ordered to be kept secret by top brass, this how civilians can came to know too as they have relatives in air force or they work their as civilian staff.


actually no you're wrong. when an airforce is evaluating a jet it is checked over by typically one dedicated squadron who's job it is to check the technical aspects of the jet and also its overall characteristics. do you honestly believe the entire airforce is going to check planes. like for example did you know paf was evaluating the t-50 trainer


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## Basel

blue marlin said:


> actually no you're wrong. when an airforce is evaluating a jet it is checked over by typically one dedicated squadron who's job it is to check the technical aspects of the jet and also its overall characteristics. do you honestly believe the entire airforce is going to check planes. like for example did you know paf was evaluating the t-50 trainer



Dear things got leaked if they are not so secret, and evaluation of 4.5 gen jets is not very big to world until its a game changer one.


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## Blue Marlin

Basel said:


> Dear things got leaked if they are not so secret, and evaluation of 4.5 gen jets is not very big to world until its a game changer one.


baby im so sorry, im wrong you're right you always are. forgive me.


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## Basel

pakistanipower said:


> OK sir I understand your point but where are the money to purchase these expensive toys



Finance Teacher once told us in class that "A good finance Manager is not the one who have lots of money to manage, but the one who can arrange the finance for business or project". Pakistanis are quite good in arranging money for defense projects specially with strategic significance.



blue marlin said:


> baby im so sorry, im wrong you're right you always are. forgive me.



Dear you just don't know how much different Pakistanis are from westerners so don't compare how you and we work.


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## Blue Marlin

Basel said:


> Finance Teacher once told us in class that "A good finance Manager is not the one who have lots of money to manage, but the one who can arrange the finance for business or project". Pakistanis are quite good in arranging money for defense projects specially with strategic significance.
> 
> 
> 
> Dear you just don't know how much different Pakistanis are from westerners so don't compare how you and we work.


guess what wise *** i am Pakistani, my great granddad was born on the Pakistani side of kashmir and grandparents came to the uk at a very young age parents obviously born in the uk too as am i. i consider my self pure british, if my thoughts hurt you, then i cant care less. about your feelings/opinions. if you're wrong i will point it out.


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## Basel

blue marlin said:


> guess what wise *** i am Pakistani, my great granddad was born on the Pakistani side of kashmir and grandparents came to the uk at a very young age parents obviously born in the uk too as am i. i consider my self pure british, if my thoughts hurt you, then i cant care less. about your feelings/opinions. if you're wrong i will point it out.



I also have plenty relative like you (born/living abroad since grandparents migrated) but they don't know much of Pakistan even they think so. Many top projects and details usually came to know to other people in Pakistan but still usually kept secret. If you watch Pakistani media you will know how usually they get and show classified reports.


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## Basel

blue marlin said:


> iv been to Pakistan recently (march) i know quite alot, i read the news there about once a week from dawn. i am studying defence and politics and specialise in Asia. i know a lot. yes thing are kept secret which is why you dont know nothing but stir the choosa too much



Dear I have worked in MoD so don't tell me how things work here.


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## Blue Marlin

Basel said:


> Dear I have worked in MoD so don't tell me how things work here.


darling i believe you but many wouldn't.


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## Basel

blue marlin said:


> darling i believe you but many wouldn't.



That is good thing then.


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## Super Falcon

Lets come on topic and dear basel if u worked mod than plz tell some thing about PN future procurment plans atleast we know our harbours also served with reliable weapons if you compare faith as we have on army airforce we dont have on navy as there are few grey areas in navy i hope u bring some hope for us regarding naval procurement


----------



## Devil Soul

*Pakistan may be first buyer of China's J-10 fighter jets: expert*
By Web Desk
Published: August 18, 2015
9SHARES
SHARE TWEET





PHOTO: ASIAN DEFENCE

*A military expert revealed on Tuesday that Pakistan may be the first buyer of China’s J-10 fighter jet which was initially set to be sold to Iran after the lifting of UN sanctions. *

Fu Qianshao, an aviation equipment expert with the People’s Liberation Army Air Force, said that Pakistan may overtake Tehran in becoming the first overseas buyer of the multi-role aircraft, which Chinese experts claim is comparable to the latest version of the US’ F-16 Fighting Falcon.

Citing Japanese website The Diplomat, the report said Pakistan had signed a deal for the purchase of 36 J-10 jets in 2009.

Read: China to deliver 50 more JF-17 Thunder jets to Pakistan

The report further stated that Pakistan, which jointly produces the J-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, had been showing interest to acquire J-10, while adding that China was wooing Iran to buy 150 J-10s.

“Once the sanctions against Iran are completely lifted, the country will definitely renovate its civilian and military aircraft fleets. The J-10 is a good option for the Iranians because it can fulfill all operations they want to conduct,” said Wang Yanan, Deputy Editor-in-chief of_Aerospace Knowledge Magazine_.

Yanan’s remarks came in the backdrop of speculation in foreign media that China and Iran are discussing a deal for 150 J-10 fighter jets.

Read: JF-17s Thunder-ous welcome for Xi

“It is natural that Iran is interested in the J-10. Iran has a very limited range of choice in terms of arms procurement. In regard to military aircraft deals, I guess it can only choose between China and Russia,” Fu said.

Fu added, ”The J-10 is able to confront any of the third-generation fighter jets operated by Iran’s neighbouring countries because it features supreme maneuverability, strong firepower and cutting-edge avionic equipment.”

_This article originally appeared on The Economic Times_

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## That Guy

Highly doubt it, even as a stop gap. With the near death of the Indian Rafale deal, there is no longer an urgent need.

It's already been said before, PAF will most likely go straight for a 5th Gen. If a stop gap is needed, PAF will opt for more second hand f-16s.

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## Shotgunner51

That Guy said:


> Highly doubt it, even as a stop gap. With the near death of the Indian Rafale deal, there is no longer an urgent need.
> 
> It's already been said before, PAF will most likely go straight for a 5th Gen. If a stop gap is needed, PAF will opt for more second hand f-16s.




I also doubt that taken into account of need/threat assessment (threat isn't high), budget allocation and limited supply (of J10 production). PAF/PAC should not complicate existing logistics management by introducing additional platform, rather should focus on JF17 Block 2/3, electronic warfare, net-centric capability, and make long term preparation for next gen (say jointly develop 5G).

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## Sulman Badshah

Pakistan should not waste its limited money on J10 B .. Because J10 Isn't giving any extraordinary advantage to our current f16 and Future JF17 fleet ... JF 17 can fire every thing which J10 B can .. 

In order to gain superiority try to focus on 5th generation fighter with few 4++ generation fighters ...

better to go for more F16 with V upgrade

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## al_asad_al_mulk

J-10 is not better then F16 block 52 or mlu ones. Then why PAF induct another fourth generation fighter plane. If they require more jets they will induct JF-17 and F-16.

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## Shotgunner51

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistan should not waste its limited money on J10 B .. Because J10 Isn't giving any extraordinary advantage to our current f16 and Future JF17 fleet ... JF 17 can fire every thing which J10 B can ..
> 
> In order to gain superiority try to focus on 5th generation fighter with few 4++ generation fighters ...
> 
> better to go for more F16 with V upgrade



You are right. I wouldn't even consider bringing more F16, in order to keep logistics simple and preserve more resources for other means. In a peace time economy like now, balancing existing defense need and long term growth is important. Pakistan is not a small country, PAF/PAC should put more priority on reinvesting indigenous defense industry (e.g. current JF17 program, future 5G), which benefits national strength/defense in the long run.

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## M.SAAD

Pakistan should save money and buy j31.

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## shah1398

After F-16 Block 52s have been inducted and infused successfully into PAF, why look back? PAF should prepare for J-31s as soon as it comes online. We can only be compelled to go for J-10s if their is rush in heavy buying spree across our eastern border, which for time being is not. So concentrate on JF-17s and bring in AESA radar and allied avionics upgrades asap.


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## airmarshal

I read once in defence journals of Europe and US, Pakistan was interested and evaluated Eurofighter Typhoon. What happened to that? 

We need an aircradft like Eurofighter. J-10 is very similar to JF-17 so it does not affect or multiplies force for PAF.


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## untitled

We are interested in lots of things then.... 

Why are we playing peek a boo with j10s?


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## aliyusuf

J-31 is a good 8 to 10 years away and also it is going to be costly by PAF/Pakistan standards. Even after acquisition, its going to take couple years more (at the least) to gain FOC.

Too long a time to go on banking on current fleet types till then.

JF-17 production, despite tall claims by the so called experts, has been very slow over the years.
Block-III prototype has not even been built yet, so it too is some years away from being inducted into the PAF and gaining FOC..

Primarily (apart from a couple of new modifications) the current under production Block-II is what the current Block-I was supposed to be but fell short of that mark. The Block-II production completion and the upgrade of current Block-Is to Block-II level is going to take a while.

The need for shortening the capabilities gap is real and present today and that gap and need is only going to grow the longer we wait for the J-31.

J-10B comes with an estimated 1000 T/R modules AESA today.
AESA is a big leap forward and J-10B brings that capability today.

Just my thoughts on the subject.


----------



## graphican

That Guy said:


> Highly doubt it, even as a stop gap. With the near death of the Indian Rafale deal, there is no longer an urgent need.
> 
> It's already been said before, PAF will most likely go straight for a 5th Gen. If a stop gap is needed, PAF will opt for more second hand f-16s.



I think there is a need for some 3 squadrons of advanced 4th gen fighters in our inventory before 5th gen would start coming. @MastanKhan has been advocating that and I too find there are sufficient grounds to believe that. 

Now which advanced 4th gen (4.5 gen) fighter get is procured? I think the possible contenders are F-16 Block-52, J-10Bs and Russian Su-35.



M.SAAD said:


> Pakistan should save money and buy j31.



10 years is too long of a planning.. we need something in next 2-3 years time frame. But personally, I see a war coming before MODI leave his chair in India.

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## Rahil khan

Instead of going after another platform, additional vipers should be inducted on priority basis as a stop gap procedure. Another couple of squadrons of vipers would be ideal in the ever changing situations of our near future.


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## sathya

Yeah I too think 5 generation aircrafts will be bought in small numbers for the first wave of bombing or fighting
but the bulk work will be done by 4 th generation fighters.

So there is no stop gaps.


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## Hurter

SU-35 would be much better option.


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## VelocuR

Pakistan decide confirmly:

- JF-17 Block 2 (progress)
- JF-17 Block 3 (design phase and testing costly)
- F-16 (seeking more or old second hands)
- J-31 (very high interested to join)

- J-10B/A (cancelled despite many experts claimed)

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## Super Falcon

That Guy said:


> Highly doubt it, even as a stop gap. With the near death of the Indian Rafale deal, there is no longer an urgent need.
> 
> It's already been said before, PAF will most likely go straight for a 5th Gen. If a stop gap is needed, PAF will opt for more second hand f-16s.


Better opt for J 10 than F 16 remember we lower f 16 purchase in 2004 becoz we have J 10 in mind


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## CHI RULES

airmarshal said:


> I read once in defence journals of Europe and US, Pakistan was interested and evaluated Eurofighter Typhoon. What happened to that?
> 
> We need an aircradft like Eurofighter. J-10 is very similar to JF-17 so it does not affect or multiplies force for PAF.


Wit AESA. IRST , latest EW suite and super maneuverability I doubt that j10b or latest versions are less capable than F16 rather as per limited info they are even much better than block 52 F16s. Further please elaborate how the hell our F16s shall compete with even 4.5th gen semi stealth fighter jets without AESA and IRST features.

If we will get J10b or latest version our PAF experts opinion shall be there in case of extra features as we did in the past. The J10 version if acquired now shall be useful for at least 20 or more years. Similarly in near future we may go for same engine in our expected future Jets i.e J10, J31 and JF17 block-II/III.


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## Sulman Badshah

Super Falcon said:


> Better opt for J 10 than F 16 remember we lower f 16 purchase in 2004 becoz we have J 10 in mind


J10 don't give us any extra advantage over our current F16 and Jf17 fleet .. we are improving JF17 mean it can fire anything that J10 have ... More over adding an extra kind of bird in inventory can create logistics and support problems ...

We should go for 5th generation or heavier 4th generatino birds

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## aliyusuf

J-10B has superior maneuverability, more payload, built-in IRST / EOTS and its AESA has an estimated 1000 T/R modules ... and even if JFT-Block-III gets AESA it will have to do with lesser number of T/R Modules due to space constraints in the nose (hence less capable AESA).

Most importantly ... it is available now and it gives us AESA ... which is a big leap.
AESA are less susceptible to jamming and will fare better than APG-68v9 of the Block-52+ and MLUed F-16s and the KLJ-7-II of the Thunder in adverse EW conditions.

5th gen fighter is a good 8 to 10 years away. What is PAF going to fill the capability gap with viz-a-viz IAF till the acquisition of the 5th gen fighter? Block-III is not going to be the answer as it probably will be arriving some years too late. Also don't forget IAF too will be getting its T-50 based 5th gen fighter (despite its current problems).

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## CHI RULES

Sulman Badshah said:


> J10 don't give us any extra advantage over our current F16 and Jf17 fleet .. we are improving JF17 mean it can fire anything that J10 have ... More over adding an extra kind of bird in inventory can create logistics and support problems ...
> 
> We should go for 5th generation or heavier 4th generatino birds



Pak if want to go for J31 then may not require heavier fighters. Further in defensive role we require capable 4.5th gen fighter jets like J10b/c with AESA, IRST and latest EW suits even to challenge 5th gen fighters. We will get JF17 block III true 4.5 th gen fighters almostin same time period when J31 shall be available,

*We should not make Pak graveyard of F16s. Even their upgrades are also not easily available especially for Pak.*

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## princefaisal

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistan should not waste its limited money on J10 B .. Because J10 Isn't giving any extraordinary advantage to our current f16 and Future JF17 fleet ... JF 17 can fire every thing which J10 B can ..
> 
> In order to gain superiority try to focus on 5th generation fighter with few 4++ generation fighters ...
> 
> better to go for more F16 with V upgrade


Mirage can also fire any thing which JF-17 can fire. So better to increase more cheap mirages.


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## Super Falcon

Sulman Badshah said:


> J10 don't give us any extra advantage over our current F16 and Jf17 fleet .. we are improving JF17 mean it can fire anything that J10 have ... More over adding an extra kind of bird in inventory can create logistics and support problems ...
> 
> We should go for 5th generation or heavier 4th generatino birds


Yes agree with your logic but we must not buy any more F 16 waste of money on a het which we have


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## Viper0011.

princefaisal said:


> Mirage can also fire any thing which JF-17 can fire. So better to increase more cheap mirages.



I am not sure if you know specs on Mirages.....the radar used on them is pretty close to being an obsolete tech, the system is 90% manual with extensive pilot workload on stuff, compared to a pilot flying a -16 or the JFT. The workload to maintain and manage the aircraft gets replaced by digital sensors. Avoinics and flight management in the Mirage is like your Motorolla's older cell phones, the big one with a foot long antenna on top, from the late 80's. The -16, -15, -18 are like IPhones, VERY user friendly. The JFT is a Chinese version of the IPhone with inputs taken from the Pakistani -16 for its cockpits layout design and still extremely user friendly.

The concept behind 4th and 4.5 gen jets is to minimize pilot's workload so he's more focused on fighting the war, not constantly looking at old switches, knobs and all. The best thing for Pakistan to do, it to expedite its JFT block III. If that's not happening, then acquire more -16's or FC-20 (ideally J-xx but that's a couple of years away).



Sulman Badshah said:


> *better to go for more F16 with V upgrade*



That should be the way to go. Acquire more -16's in numbers with more AMRAAM's. Stock up on spares for 1 year, so you are not worried about the sanctions and you have time to adjust. I doubt there ever will be sanctions on Pakistan again. With its economy booming, sanctioning Pakistan would mean we are stopping US companies from being more profitable. Plus, both, the US and Pakistan have matured in their relationships I think, many things and issues are now discussed and worked out between the two governments. So that's always good.

Overall, getting more -16's makes perfect sense (both common sense and strategic sense). Get what you can use from DAY 1. FC-20 will require its own setup, tactics, maintenance facilities, training and all that. -16 doesn't need any of that. It flies in, refueled and armed, and theoretically, a pilot can fly it right out into combat using current SOP's.

The investment should go to a J-31 type platform with TOT or semi TOT. In the future, if there is a lot more money, than get J_xx or SU-35's. JFT Block II and III should be able to provide similar capability compared to FC-20.

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## CHI RULES

Viper0011. said:


> I am not sure if you know specs on Mirages.....the radar used on them is pretty close to being an obsolete tech, the system is 90% manual with extensive pilot workload on stuff, compared to a pilot flying a -16 or the JFT. The workload to maintain and manage the aircraft gets replaced by digital sensors. Avoinics and flight management in the Mirage is like your Motorolla's older cell phones, the big one with a foot long antenna on top, from the late 80's. The -16, -15, -18 are like IPhones, VERY user friendly. The JFT is a Chinese version of the IPhone with inputs taken from the Pakistani -16 for its cockpits layout design and still extremely user friendly.
> 
> The concept behind 4th and 4.5 gen jets is to minimize pilot's workload so he's more focused on fighting the war, not constantly looking at old switches, knobs and all. The best thing for Pakistan to do, it to expedite its JFT block III. If that's not happening, then acquire more -16's or FC-20 (ideally J-xx but that's a couple of years away).



Dear Sir we should request for a break for abt years required to get FC20/J10B. Can Pak F16s be capable for about next 20 to 25 Years. May be in flying condition but definitely with out AESA and Irst definitely shall not be in position to even counter Indian Jets with PESA radars let alone Rafaels. Do Paf in current position capable enough to counter Indian threat effectively. I think any jet without AESA and Irst will be useless in near future whether F16 or JF17.

Pls do consider fact that F16 block 52s due to more weight is relatively lees manueverable than previous versions. Further can Pak go for AESA upgrade even on Block 52s answer is big no., same answer I got in the past by mature members.
*Your comments shall be appreciated regarding our F16s not having IRST and AESA.*

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## Styx

Junaid B said:


> SU-35 would be much better option.


I wouldn't hold my breath for those.

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## Imran Khan

if they just increase 10 more numbers and make it j-20 i will give party  only matter of 10 more numbers


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## A2Z

Sulman Badshah said:


> Pakistan should not waste its limited money on J10 B .. Because J10 Isn't giving any extraordinary advantage to our current f16 and Future JF17 fleet ... JF 17 can fire every thing which J10 B can ..
> 
> In order to gain superiority try to focus on 5th generation fighter with few 4++ generation fighters ...
> 
> better to go for more F16 with V upgrade


I dont think V Upgrade is being offered to Pakistan. However offered or not J10 is not needed now.


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## imranyounus

The development of J 10 B is very slow and we haven't seen any major improvement in J10B which can cover future requirements may b if it had arrived 5 years earlier PAF should have been interested. But now the platform still need at least 2 to 5 years before we can introduce it. So better to fill the gap with used F 16 and improve JF17 and wait for J 31. 
It will not only give us good capability but will also help in achieving capabilities for followup project for JF17.


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## A2Z

Super Falcon said:


> Yes agree with your logic but we must not buy any more F 16 waste of money on a het which we have


We have that jet this is the reason we should go for more if possible and avalible at lower costs. PAF knows F16 inside out and have been practicing tactics on them for more than 3 decades now. Everyone knows if indian mki or anyother jet violates pakistani air space our falcons will give them a run for their money.


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## Super Falcon

A2Z said:


> We have that jet this is the reason we should go for more if possible and avalible at lower costs. PAF knows F16 inside out and have been practicing tactics on them for more than 3 decades now. Everyone knows if indian mki or anyother jet violates pakistani air space our falcons will give them a run for their money.


Yes we seen today these useless paf pilots and F 16 cant even get on air indian helicopter were inside our border for dcer long 5 minutes but we let them easy passage like piece of cake
PAF is made to just bomb those who have AK 47 
Cant fight in air PAF were sleeping when IAF mirages was carpet bombing tiger hill

PAF with current status bigger burden doing nothing making shit 

All their focus on joy rides of skies in old cozy stupid F 16

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## Blue Marlin

Super Falcon said:


> Yes we seen today these useless paf pilots and F 16 cant even get on air indian helicopter were inside our border for dcer long 5 minutes but we let them easy passage like piece of cake
> PAF is made to just bomb those who have AK 47
> Cant fight in air PAF were sleeping when IAF mirages was carpet bombing tiger hill
> 
> PAF with current status bigger burden doing nothing making shit
> 
> All their focus on joy rides of skies in old cozy stupid F 16


those old cozy f16's have served you well and many within the airforce would too disagree with what you say. forget about the j10 as a whole and paf should focus on procuring f16 and bringing them up to standard. and also preparing to co produce the j31. the combination of upbringing the jft and procuring and modernising f16 will serve paf well for now

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## Super Falcon

blue marlin said:


> those old cozy f16's have served you well and many within the airforce would too disagree with what you say. forget about the j10 as a whole and paf should focus on procuring f16 and bringing them up to standard. and also preparing to co produce the j31. the combination of upbringing the jft and procuring and modernising f16 will serve paf well for now


Brother i disagree with you time to invest money on something bigger and better world is moving forward

Yes F 16 served well but in past for future it has no future better invest in more better jet than F 16 dozens of jets available

In WW2 Mustang P 8 Served US well so they use it today for justification it served them well in past

F 16 most airforces are now in transation to replace them norway is one of them as far f 16 orders are getting lower day by day

UAE is not fully satisfied with F 16 they are planning for more better jet we have greater threat from enemy which is 10 times bigger yet we rely on one type of jet is just pathetic

I have simple question for u
Where was PAF and its F 16 when indian 2 heli came inside pak for 5 min no f 16 can scramble

This is how pathetic state of PAF and its thinking

Being a pak i dont like to talk against my own forces but when our forces allow these enemies joy ride in our airspace being a patriot pak dont like bit of it recently they kill our civilians if we had destroyed their helos the fear of pak would been more in indian hearts but now they knew how weak we are

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## Blue Marlin

Super Falcon said:


> Brother i disagree with you time to invest money on something bigger and better world is moving forward
> 
> Yes F 16 served well but in past for future it has no future better invest in more better jet than F 16 dozens of jets available


 they have served well in the past, but in the future they are not obsolete. remember the f16 had the f35 in a dog fight. and also when stealth fighters take out radar installations the f16 can move in and get to work.



Super Falcon said:


> F 16 most airforces are now in transation to replace them norway is one of them as far f 16 orders are getting lower day by day.


countries that have deep enough pockets to buy the f16 would also have deep pockets for the f35, example are coming from all over Europe, so it a question of f16 or f35? what would you pick? countries that buy surpluss f16's typically end in spares shortages and maintenance issues examples being Thailand, Indonesia and Venezuela. these countries have procured second hand f16's and have crashed at least 1 of them. paf is different you guys have invested in the jet so that spares and maintenance is not an issue.



Super Falcon said:


> UAE is not fully satisfied with F 16 they are planning for more better jet we have greater threat from enemy which is 10 times bigger yet we rely on one type of jet is just pathetic


when is the uae ever happy? i hate them dont talk about them.



Super Falcon said:


> I have simple question for u
> Where was PAF and its F 16 when indian 2 heli came inside pak for 5 min no f 16 can scramble


well i would either assume the helicopters were flying low (below 600ft) so radar cant detect them.
or you dont have radar in that specific area.
i feel this was to test pakistans reaction. how something so innocent as a helicopter that strayed in to a border that can be used to test Pakistan's reaction time. as they did in 2008. this is slightly different.




Super Falcon said:


> This is how pathetic state of PAF and its thinking
> 
> Being a pak i dont like to talk against my own forces but when our forces allow these enemies joy ride in our airspace being a patriot pak dont like bit of it recently they kill our civilians if we had destroyed their helos the fear of pak would been more in indian hearts but now they knew how weak we are



patriotism issues is your problem, good luck. dont you just feel you can do better at the drivers seat.


also you need to under stand that stealth fighters are good for airspace penetration but in full on (wvr) its useless it then relies on high spec missiles to help it. and when you find stealth fighters with external hard points (when you need a drop tank or large alcm or an asm ) it defeats the object of a stealth fighter.

f16's are made to fight with a weapons config.

granted the f16 is not my preferred jet but it's good for paf's specific needs. my favourite jet is the EFT. same level as the f22 only difference is stealth


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## airmarshal

CHI RULES said:


> Wit AESA. IRST , latest EW suite and super maneuverability I doubt that j10b or latest versions are less capable than F16 rather as per limited info they are even much better than block 52 F16s. Further please elaborate how the hell our F16s shall compete with even 4.5th gen semi stealth fighter jets without AESA and IRST features.
> 
> If we will get J10b or latest version our PAF experts opinion shall be there in case of extra features as we did in the past. The J10 version if acquired now shall be useful for at least 20 or more years. Similarly in near future we may go for same engine in our expected future Jets i.e J10, J31 and JF17 block-II/III.



There are reports that some future block of JF-17 is getting AESA radar. So then J-10 will become redundant. Read it somewhere too on this forum former ACM rejecting J-10 for further investment in JF-17 program and in buying Chinese stealth aircraft.


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## Viper0011.

Super Falcon said:


> Yes we seen today these useless paf pilots and F 16 cant even get on air indian helicopter were inside our border for dcer long 5 minutes but we let them easy passage like piece of cake
> PAF is made to just bomb those who have AK 47
> Cant fight in air PAF were sleeping when IAF mirages was carpet bombing tiger hill
> 
> PAF with current status bigger burden doing nothing making shit
> 
> All their focus on joy rides of skies in old cozy stupid F 16




???? Do you know the rules of engagements on the border???? Just so you know, there is an agreement that in peacetime (which unfortunately it is, even with shelling from both sides), aircraft, if by mistake get to the border, each side will give them the benefit of the doubt and will allow them to turn around. 

So up to 5 KM's for jets are considered normal. For the heli's, there would be a limit much smaller than the jets obviously as the chopper can turn within a few hundred feet, but the jets require a few KM's at the least, due to their speed.

So this right here, is like 200-300 feet, which is a human walking for 2-3 minutes? Choppers are much bigger and obviously have speed. So if the pilot really tried to stop and messed up in getting directions from his GPS, its normal to skip the border by a couple of hundred feet. It shouldn't happen every day, but its not a sign of an attack or something. 

At this level, the first responsibility lies on the SAM systems and shoulder mount AD units. The PAF has nothing to do with a helicopter coming in 100 feet and going back. Please don't bash the PAF!!

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## A2Z

Super Falcon said:


> Yes we seen today these useless paf pilots and F 16 cant even get on air indian helicopter were inside our border for dcer long 5 minutes but we let them easy passage like piece of cake
> PAF is made to just bomb those who have AK 47
> Cant fight in air PAF were sleeping when IAF mirages was carpet bombing tiger hill
> 
> PAF with current status bigger burden doing nothing making shit
> 
> All their focus on joy rides of skies in old cozy stupid F 16


You are talking about helicopter incident do you know the exact details of the entire event that took place? On the other hand these were the pilots who locked on MKI using the same F-16 post Mumbai Drama tensions. When you talk about Kargil lets get your fact straight PAF was not allowed to respond to anything by our dear PM Nawaz Shareef because he feared further escalation would lead to a nuclear confrontation. I don't know why you have such an image of F-16 in your mind but there is a reason that F-16 is considered as a benchmark against which every fighter jet today is rated.


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## MastanKhan

Super Falcon said:


> UAE is not fully satisfied with F 16 they are planning for more better jet we have greater threat from enemy which is 10 times bigger yet we rely on one type of jet is just pathetic
> 
> I have simple question for u
> Where was PAF and its F 16 when indian 2 heli came inside pak for 5 min no f 16 can scramble
> 
> This is how pathetic state of PAF and its thinking




Hi,

First of all---UAE air force is not the standard that air forces are judged on.

Helicopters come and go---you have to asses the level of the threat and act accordingly---.

You just cannot snap shoot everyone. And this is not the issue with the F16----. If there is any---it is with the air controller that needs to launch them and vector them in.

You just simply don't want to show your reaction and reaction time----.

The helicopters also wanted to check if any surface to air batteries locked onto them---. You just simply cannot give your assets away just like that.

If the aircraft were vectored in----then the Indians can easily determine the reaction time----if there is a lock on from an SA battery----then you just disclosed its location.

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## Zarvan

First of all F-16 getting jammed can't happen secondly if we suppose it can happen than USA would be biggest fool to try it because than we would only use nuclear weapons to response so grow up Guys. Now on the topic well now I have changed my mind a little if India goes to buy Rafale than J-10 B is the best answer but if they go for something like Euro Fighter than SU-35 is the best answer or J-11 D. As for those promoting JH-7 B it would be great plane but as 4th Jet in our Air Force for third it should be either SU-35 or J-10 B. JH-7 can come for deep strikes inside India and unleashing hell on their Armored Brigades. @MastanKhan @Super Falcon @A2Z


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## black-hawk_101

I think 150 JF-17s are confirmed and may be 150 J-10s too along with new and used F-16s. 50 J-10s can be of Block-I. J-10 has a single problem which is its engine which is unconfirmed. I am sure PAF might be gathering funds for J-31 to procure 50 of them, and also some more used F-16s from USA and Jordan now!!!


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## A2Z

Zarvan said:


> First of all F-16 getting jammed can't happen secondly if we suppose it can happen than USA would be biggest fool to try it because than we would only use nuclear weapons to response so grow up Guys. Now on the topic well now I have changed my mind a little if India goes to buy Rafale than J-10 B is the best answer but if they go for something like Euro Fighter than SU-35 is the best answer or J-11 D. As for those promoting JH-7 B it would be great plane but as 4th Jet in our Air Force for third it should be either SU-35 or J-10 B. JH-7 can come for deep strikes inside India and unleashing hell on their Armored Brigades. @MastanKhan @Super Falcon @A2Z


Totally agree with you that if India goes for Rafale then F-16 only are not an appropriate answer, we would need something that can match Rafale's capability but keeping in mind the recent news about Rafale deal either India would pull off the biggest surprise or the deal is about to die. However regarding Su-35 I don't doubt the capabilities but would Russia offer us something of that caliber?

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## Zarvan

A2Z said:


> Totally agree with you that if India goes for Rafale then F-16 only are not an appropriate answer, we would need something that can match Rafale's capability but keeping in mind the recent news about Rafale deal either India would pull off the biggest surprise or the deal is about to die. However regarding Su-35 I don't doubt the capabilities but would Russia offer us something of that caliber?


SU-35 is one of the best superiority Fighter as for Rafale it's great jet but F-16 can easily counter it no problem with that but we still need a third 4.5th Generation platform. So for me if India goes ahead with Rafale we would go for J-10 B but if they go for Euro Fighter than SU-35 is the best option.


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## Arsalan

OR like these,,,
you know what i am saying right?

WHAT IS YOUR CONTRIBUTION TO THIS THREAD IN THIS POST?


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## Rocketman

That Guy said:


> Highly doubt it, even as a stop gap. With the near death of the Indian Rafale deal, there is no longer an urgent need.
> 
> It's already been said before, PAF will most likely go straight for a 5th Gen. If a stop gap is needed, PAF will opt for more second hand f-16s.



I don't mean any disrespect, but how is Pakistan going to bear the cost of a 5th generation platform, the entire life-cycle cost and spare parts as it is a well known fact that a 5th generation platform is highly cost prohibitive. Even the USA had to cut down the orders for F-22 to just 187+8 from originally planned around 750.

A rough estimate is that if a procurement of a plane costs $100 millions, by the end of its life cycle, it consumes a total of $300-400 millions(including procurement cost, with final amount adjusted to the rate of exchange of procurement date.).

And in the end Pakistan's predicted economic conditions both in short term and mid term won't easily allow it to procure 5th Generation platform in significant numbers. Mere 3 squadrons won't make much difference against India.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Shotgunner51 said:


> I also doubt that taken into account of need/threat assessment (threat isn't high), budget allocation and limited supply (of J10 production). PAF/PAC should not complicate existing logistics management by introducing additional platform, rather should focus on JF17 Block 2/3, electronic warfare, net-centric capability, and make long term preparation for next gen (say jointly develop 5G).



BINGO

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## That Guy

Rocketman said:


> I don't mean any disrespect, but how is Pakistan going to bear the cost of a 5th generation platform, the entire life-cycle cost and spare parts as it is a well known fact that a 5th generation platform is highly cost prohibitive. Even the USA had to cut down the orders for F-22 to just 187+8 from originally planned around 750.
> 
> A rough estimate is that if a procurement of a plane costs $100 millions, by the end of its life cycle, it consumes a total of $300-400 millions(including procurement cost, with final amount adjusted to the rate of exchange of procurement date.).
> 
> And in the end Pakistan's predicted economic conditions both in short term and mid term won't easily allow it to procure 5th Generation platform in significant numbers. Mere 3 squadrons won't make much difference against India.


It's a fair question to ask, so no offense taken.

Pakistan doesn't need 100+ 5th Gen, nor would it look for such a thing. It's looking for between 35-40, enough for a deterrent capability to effectively challenge India's future 5th gen. The Chinese FC-31 promises 5th gen technology and capability, but on a slightly smaller budget, perfect for a defensive force such as the PAF. These planes would be used to contest against Indian 5th gens (which India would only be able to field in limited numbers, due to cost -the same as PAF-), thus preventing Indian domination of the sky, in the event of war.

Quite frankly, even 2-3 squadrons of 5th gens are enough.

That's the way PAF has always operated against the numerically superior Indian air force, and its worked well so far, there is no reason to change this tactic.

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## A2Z

Zarvan said:


> SU-35 is one of the best superiority Fighter as for Rafale it's great jet but F-16 can easily counter it no problem with that but we still need a third 4.5th Generation platform. So for me if India goes ahead with Rafale we would go for J-10 B but if they go for Euro Fighter than SU-35 is the best option.


Well there is no doubt that Su-35 is the answer to any 4.5 generation fighter but my question remains the same. Will we be able to get them? Are we so close to russia that they'll give us the best of flanker series?

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## Zarvan

A2Z said:


> Well there is no doubt that Su-35 is the answer to any 4.5 generation fighter but my question remains the same. Will we be able to get them? Are we so close to russia that they'll give us the best of flanker series?


Well Russia wants to join CPEC route we can use that as leverage to get SU-35 if we want. But we should also have a look at J-11 D Chinese are claiming it to be equal to SU-35 if not better.


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## Peace seeker

i don't understand why???


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## Super Falcon

D


Zarvan said:


> SU-35 is one of the best superiority Fighter as for Rafale it's great jet but F-16 can easily counter it no problem with that but we still need a third 4.5th Generation platform. So for me if India goes ahead with Rafale we would go for J-10 B but if they go for Euro Fighter than SU-35 is the best option.


Dear if F 16 could have counter rafale in capabilities france bought F 16 why waster billions on rafale of same capsbility

Rafale i superrior in all aspects

Class A+ FIGHTER JETS
F 22 RAPTOR
F 35 LIGHTINING
T 50 PAKFA
J 31
J 20
LMFS

CLASS A FIGHTER JETS
EURO FIGHTER 
RAFALE
SU 35 SUPER FLANKER
MIg 35
F 18 SUPER HORNET
F 15 PEACE EAGLE

CLASS B FIGHTER JETS
F 16 FIGHTING FALCON
JAS 39 GRIPEN
J 10 VEGAROUS DRAGON
MIG 29 
TORNADO 
JF 17 THUNDER
Mirage 2000

so dear rafake is far far far superior to F 16 get oug of F 16 love affair 

If india gets RAFALE 
We must buy SU 35

WE Lack air superiority if india get air superiority of our air we loose battle in matter of days

Our PAF think tank nuts cant get F 16 to destroy india helo recently and cant gave air cover to our jawans in kargill war during tiger hill bombing

India has 
SU 30 
MIRAGE 2000
MIG 29K
LCA TEJAS
PAKFA
RAFALE

PAK HAS 
F 16 
JF 17 

We did not have replaced the A 5 fantan and Mirage jets

Initialy we planed 250 Jf 17 now wd get 150 jf 17

We planned to buy J 10 and lower the order of 72 f 16 to just 18 F 16 in 2004

But we dont get J 10 yet neither 72 F 16

Our stupid paf think tank is doing to match naval stupidity they are letting us down 
When war open you never know what you need



A2Z said:


> You are talking about helicopter incident do you know the exact details of the entire event that took place? On the other hand these were the pilots who locked on MKI using the same F-16 post Mumbai Drama tensions. When you talk about Kargil lets get your fact straight PAF was not allowed to respond to anything by our dear PM Nawaz Shareef because he feared further escalation would lead to a nuclear confrontation. I don't know why you have such an image of F-16 in your mind but there is a reason that F-16 is considered as a benchmark against which every fighter jet today is rated.


Yes if we ask russia in few years we can crack the deal



A2Z said:


> You are talking about helicopter incident do you know the exact details of the entire event that took place? On the other hand these were the pilots who locked on MKI using the same F-16 post Mumbai Drama tensions. When you talk about Kargil lets get your fact straight PAF was not allowed to respond to anything by our dear PM Nawaz Shareef because he feared further escalation would lead to a nuclear confrontation. I don't know why you have such an image of F-16 in your mind but there is a reason that F-16 is considered as a benchmark against which every fighter jet today is rated.


Im not against F 16 im against our thinking which says it can beat rafale which it cant

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## CHI RULES

Viper0011. said:


> ???? Do you know the rules of engagements on the border???? Just so you know, there is an agreement that in peacetime (which unfortunately it is, even with shelling from both sides), aircraft, if by mistake get to the border, each side will give them the benefit of the doubt and will allow them to turn around.
> 
> So up to 5 KM's for jets are considered normal. For the heli's, there would be a limit much smaller than the jets obviously as the chopper can turn within a few hundred feet, but the jets require a few KM's at the least, due to their speed.
> 
> So this right here, is like 200-300 feet, which is a human walking for 2-3 minutes? Choppers are much bigger and obviously have speed. So if the pilot really tried to stop and messed up in getting directions from his GPS, its normal to skip the border by a couple of hundred feet. It shouldn't happen every day, but its not a sign of an attack or something.
> 
> At this level, the first responsibility lies on the SAM systems and shoulder mount AD units. The PAF has nothing to do with a helicopter coming in 100 feet and going back. Please don't bash the PAF!!


rangers on indo pak border definitely don't have SAMS or Manpads their limited air defense is based on HMGs and LMGs at best. If the dirty habbit of Indians goes on then we should arm our Rangers with Manpads with training as it not just simple to fire a Manpad and definitely hit the enemy helos or jets.

Further in peace time if helos are not gunships we can't scramble our F16s so much nearer to border. Pak is in defensive mode which is quite natural for a country with small stature. However perhaps now is the time to provide some sort of Man pads and even short range SAMS along with some AA modernized guns to Fc and Rangers on border.



airmarshal said:


> There are reports that some future block of JF-17 is getting AESA radar. So then J-10 will become redundant. Read it somewhere too on this forum former ACM rejecting J-10 for further investment in JF-17 program and in buying Chinese stealth aircraft.



Future Jf17 Block-III may have AESA radarbut its range shall be lesser than J10 AESA. Further J10 latest versions have latest avionics and may engage more A to A targets than Jf17, have more hard points, even in J10C version elements of J20 are used. Due to light weight and limited options Pak can't bring JF17 block III equivalent to J10C.

Further I am not talking about future I am talking about PAK air defense now, PAF even now don;t have sufficient squadrons of JF17 and F16 to face Indian existing fleet. Further even existing Indian Jets are specifically upgraded specially by* Israel*. The Indian Jets have higher radar ranges than Pak fighters, *with absence of BVR capabilities even in F7PGs and limited A to A capabilities of present Mirrages J10b or C is major contender to bring some sort of venom in current PAF fleet.* (Pls don't go for rumors that PAF F7PGs have BVR capabilities, further most of old gen Jets of Pak don;t have Jammers and IRST not even available in latest F16s, meanwhile same capabilities even available in Indian Mig 21s.

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## MastanKhan

Super Falcon said:


> D
> 
> Dear if F 16 could have counter rafale in capabilities france bought F 16 why waster billions on rafale of same capsbility



Hi,

My good man----I think you misunderstood the arrogance of the French. French would not buy anything American just because it is better----.


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> D
> 
> Dear if F 16 could have counter rafale in capabilities france bought F 16 why waster billions on rafale of same capsbility
> 
> Rafale i superrior in all aspects
> 
> Class A+ FIGHTER JETS
> F 22 RAPTOR
> F 35 LIGHTINING
> T 50 PAKFA
> J 31
> J 20
> LMFS
> 
> CLASS A FIGHTER JETS
> EURO FIGHTER
> RAFALE
> SU 35 SUPER FLANKER
> MIg 35
> F 18 SUPER HORNET
> F 15 PEACE EAGLE
> 
> CLASS B FIGHTER JETS
> F 16 FIGHTING FALCON
> JAS 39 GRIPEN
> J 10 VEGAROUS DRAGON
> MIG 29
> TORNADO
> JF 17 THUNDER
> Mirage 2000
> 
> so dear rafake is far far far superior to F 16 get oug of F 16 love affair
> 
> If india gets RAFALE
> We must buy SU 35
> 
> WE Lack air superiority if india get air superiority of our air we loose battle in matter of days
> 
> Our PAF think tank nuts cant get F 16 to destroy india helo recently and cant gave air cover to our jawans in kargill war during tiger hill bombing
> 
> India has
> SU 30
> MIRAGE 2000
> MIG 29K
> LCA TEJAS
> PAKFA
> RAFALE
> 
> PAK HAS
> F 16
> JF 17
> 
> We did not have replaced the A 5 fantan and Mirage jets
> 
> Initialy we planed 250 Jf 17 now wd get 150 jf 17
> 
> We planned to buy J 10 and lower the order of 72 f 16 to just 18 F 16 in 2004
> 
> But we dont get J 10 yet neither 72 F 16
> 
> Our stupid paf think tank is doing to match naval stupidity they are letting us down
> When war open you never know what you need
> 
> 
> Yes if we ask russia in few years we can crack the deal
> 
> 
> Im not against F 16 im against our thinking which says it can beat rafale which it cant


We would still get more than 250 JF-17 which fool have told you we would only have 150 JF-17 your source is wrong we are going for 250 JF-17 and we are also trying to get more F-16 now the only question is which should be third 4.5th Generation platform in our Air Force. For me if India goes ahead with Rafale than we should get J-10 B and if India goes ahead with just say Euro Fighter we should go for SU-35 or J-11D . As for A5 replacement if we really want 4th 4.5th Generation Fighter and replacement of A5 than best option is JH-7 B.


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## A2Z

Super Falcon said:


> Yes if we ask russia in few years we can crack the deal


I highly doubt that we can get J-11D because if we ask, there Indian lobby wont matter but going for Russian jets Indian lobby would never let that happen. It is a well known fact that indians are more close to russians than pakistanis. If it was not for china indians had made sure we didn't get engine for JF-17. Its not that I am against Su-35, J-11 or J-10 but the only concern I have in my mind is that going for a 4.5 gen platform would delay 5th gen platform by what? 10 years?


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## Super Falcon

A2Z said:


> I highly doubt that we can get J-11D because if we ask, there Indian lobby wont matter but going for Russian jets Indian lobby would never let that happen. It is a well known fact that indians are more close to russians than pakistanis. If it was not for china indians had made sure we didn't get engine for JF-17. Its not that I am against Su-35, J-11 or J-10 but the only concern I have in my mind is that going for a 4.5 gen platform would delay 5th gen platform by what? 10 years?


We already living in delaying our selfes first J 10 and induction of 250 J F 17 to 150

Currently war fought in air who have beter fire piwer in Air win war 

Abd what gurantee you have with history of our stupid PAF mindset what they did with J 10 deal

Give you a small look in past

When mushy went to US to buy F 16 intial order was 72 F 16 fighter jets than they lowered it to 36 than again to 18 F 16 only out of 72 and ordered 36 J 10

Neither we got those 54 F 16 out of 72 Ordered nor 36 J 10

We are having big hole In Paf both in jets and sam systems

Paf currently digging grave for itself and entire nation with mindboggling induction

When entire world looking forward we keep looking backwards


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## Zarvan

Super Falcon said:


> We already living in delaying our selfes first J 10 and induction of 250 J F 17 to 150
> 
> Currently war fought in air who have beter fire piwer in Air win war
> 
> Abd what gurantee you have with history of our stupid PAF mindset what they did with J 10 deal
> 
> Give you a small look in past
> 
> When mushy went to US to buy F 16 intial order was 72 F 16 fighter jets than they lowered it to 36 than again to 18 F 16 only out of 72 and ordered 36 J 10
> 
> Neither we got those 54 F 16 out of 72 Ordered nor 36 J 10
> 
> We are having big hole In Paf both in jets and sam systems
> 
> Paf currently digging grave for itself and entire nation with mindboggling induction
> 
> When entire world looking forward we keep looking backwards


I have told you several times that PAF will induct 250 JF-17 not 150.


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## Irfan Baloch

Viper0011. said:


> ???? Do you know the rules of engagements on the border???? Just so you know, there is an agreement that in peacetime (which unfortunately it is, even with shelling from both sides), aircraft, if by mistake get to the border, each side will give them the benefit of the doubt and will allow them to turn around.
> 
> So up to 5 KM's for jets are considered normal. For the heli's, there would be a limit much smaller than the jets obviously as the chopper can turn within a few hundred feet, but the jets require a few KM's at the least, due to their speed.
> 
> So this right here, is like 200-300 feet, which is a human walking for 2-3 minutes? Choppers are much bigger and obviously have speed. So if the pilot really tried to stop and messed up in getting directions from his GPS, its normal to skip the border by a couple of hundred feet. It shouldn't happen every day, but its not a sign of an attack or something.
> 
> At this level, the first responsibility lies on the SAM systems and shoulder mount AD units. The PAF has nothing to do with a helicopter coming in 100 feet and going back. Please don't bash the PAF!!


just want to clarify that PAF does operate SAM systems at important locations including near the borders (in some cases flight time from take off to target is on average 3 to 5 minutes only). PAF has Forward observation posts who look out for such threats themselves and signal their command of incoming potential threat. Army air defence has its own setup in addition to that and they all in the end report back to air defence command.

sometimes the early warning is as simple and unassuming as a person with binoculars with a radio set to communicate any suspicious air activity


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## vizier

For frontline long range sams are not necessary pantsyr equivalent systems and interceptors can fill that gap. But for nuke sites and airbases lack of high altitude sams means calling the enemy to drop bombs from high altitude. Hq 16 and others are good against low altitude cruise missiles but cant reach high. Sa-2 variant old systems cant track many targets and is easy to evade and jam. Also lack of ballistic missile early waning radar like greenpine radar would tempt opponents to launch ballistics first in a conflict. China or even Iran facing israel bms should have that type of radar opt for whichever you like to satisfy urgent needs until you develop yours later.


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## HAIDER

*J-10 fighter jets: Pakistan may be China’s first customer *

*A military expert revealed on Tuesday that Pakistan may be the first buyer of China’s J-10 fighter jet which was initially set to be sold to Iran after the lifting of UN sanctions.*
J-10 fighter jets: Pakistan may be China’s first customer - The Express Tribune


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## A2Z

Super Falcon said:


> We already living in delaying our selfes first J 10 and induction of 250 J F 17 to 150
> 
> Currently war fought in air who have beter fire piwer in Air win war
> 
> Abd what gurantee you have with history of our stupid PAF mindset what they did with J 10 deal
> 
> Give you a small look in past
> 
> When mushy went to US to buy F 16 intial order was 72 F 16 fighter jets than they lowered it to 36 than again to 18 F 16 only out of 72 and ordered 36 J 10
> 
> Neither we got those 54 F 16 out of 72 Ordered nor 36 J 10
> 
> We are having big hole In Paf both in jets and sam systems
> 
> Paf currently digging grave for itself and entire nation with mindboggling induction
> 
> When entire world looking forward we keep looking backwards


Well I'm not defending the mistakes that we have made in the past, the points you have quoted are valid and if we have gone for 72 F-16 and 36 J-10A(that was what was offered as J-10B was in development?) our airforce would have been way more strong than it is right now. Nor am I against J-10B it is something that is better than anything we have in our inventory right now. But my point is:

1) If we had gone for that order, would we have been able to pour money in thunder program? Instead of 54 F-16 we have 50+ JF17 which I know is not as advanced and lethal as F-16 but something that we own and is tailor made as per our requirements plus we don't have to worry about spares and has played a role in maturing our aviation industry.

2) IMO what is more important for PAF right now is to get in collaboration with Chinese in one of their 5th generation program like we did in JF-17's case. In the mean time we can focus on SAM systems as it is as important, cheaper and easy to induct.


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## CHI RULES

A2Z said:


> Well I'm not defending the mistakes that we have made in the past, the points you have quoted are valid and if we have gone for 72 F-16 and 36 J-10A(that was what was offered as J-10B was in development?) our airforce would have been way more strong than it is right now. Nor am I against J-10B it is something that is better than anything we have in our inventory right now. But my point is:
> 
> 1) If we had gone for that order, would we have been able to pour money in thunder program? Instead of 54 F-16 we have 50+ JF17 which I know is not as advanced and lethal as F-16 but something that we own and is tailor made as per our requirements plus we don't have to worry about spares and has played a role in maturing our aviation industry.
> 
> 2) IMO what is more important for PAF right now is to get in collaboration with Chinese in one of their 5th generation program like we did in JF-17's case. In the mean time we can focus on SAM systems as it is as important, cheaper and easy to induct.


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## aliyusuf

I think we are emphasizing too much on the 5th Gen fighter acquisition.

In the case of the JF-17/FC-1, we had a good operational knowledge base of 4th Gen western fighters (mainly F-16s) to provide valuable inputs to the Thunder program. What collaboration or inputs can we provide on the 5th Gen fighter development program apart from money? Which, unfortunately, is in short supply at the moment. So that collaboration may not start any time soon as stealth programs are much much costlier than programs for fighters like the Thunder. Even the body (empty fuselage, wings and tail fins) is more costly compared to the conventional fighters of same size. Also the acquisition of fighters in this manner cost way more than buying something that is already under production and preferably in service somewhere.

What 5th Gen Options Do We Have?

Members here are predicting/hoping the induction of something like the J-31. Lets study whatever we know about its specs.

It is roughly the same size as the F-35 ... in fact marginally bigger. It has two engines whereas the F-35 has one. The F-35 can carry 2 X AMRAAM-120s, 4 X AIM-9s and 2 X 2000 lbs bombs internally. Anything more will have to be carried under the wings and the plane becomes non-stealthy. This issue is further compounded on the J-31. Since it has 2 X engines, there is less free internal space available. This plane can carry only 4 X AAMs internally ... and that's all. For air to ground role it will have to carry its munitions under the wing ... there goes its stealthiness. Furthermore it can carry slightly more than half the internal fuel as the F-35 (which does not have long legs itself). The Grey Falcon is going to be seriously short legged and will depend much more on aerial refueling than other planes. I am not saying that this plane is going to go up against the F-35 but just trying to highlight the issues that it is going to present (more severely) than those which are already being discussed unfavorably about the F-35. This fighter has a lot of issues to be ironed out and I don't realistically see it coming before 2025 .. if at all we choose it to be our 5th Gen solution.

The only other alternative will be the J-20. Which will be quite costly to acquire and even costlier to operate. Even if China agrees to sell this fighter to Pakistan ... that will only happen after sufficient numbers have been inducted into the PLAAF. I don't see even this happening before 2025.

Can the JF-17 block-III standard and F-16s soldier on till 2025 without further compromising the capability gap viz-a-viz the IAF?

Other member's opinion on what I have just stated will be greatly appreciated.

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## Cornered Tiger

You are very right @aliyusuf . I agree totally. Adding to ur comments

We have nearly 150 F-7P and F-7PGs till today and we have nearly 120 or more aging Mirages, these all make up for 270 or more planes to be replace. we gonna add 100 or 150 JF-17s till 2020 or beyond and max 18 or 36 more F-16s. still we cannot make up for 270 aging planes. we definitely need a newer and agile platform to do the job, whatever u consider, 5th gen. planes are far away from reality, only 5th gen. are operational till now and we never get them. only choice for us are Chinese 5th gen. planes they are going to be operational not before 2018 or 2020.. till then we have to bring in a platform that can save precious lives of our pilots..

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## Super Falcon

A2Z said:


> Well I'm not defending the mistakes that we have made in the past, the points you have quoted are valid and if we have gone for 72 F-16 and 36 J-10A(that was what was offered as J-10B was in development?) our airforce would have been way more strong than it is right now. Nor am I against J-10B it is something that is better than anything we have in our inventory right now. But my point is:
> 
> 1) If we had gone for that order, would we have been able to pour money in thunder program? Instead of 54 F-16 we have 50+ JF17 which I know is not as advanced and lethal as F-16 but something that we own and is tailor made as per our requirements plus we don't have to worry about spares and has played a role in maturing our aviation industry.
> 
> 2) IMO what is more important for PAF right now is to get in collaboration with Chinese in one of their 5th generation program like we did in JF-17's case. In the mean time we can focus on SAM systems as it is as important, cheaper and easy to induct.


FRiend when we ordered 72 F 16 in mushy visit it means we had money why we lower the number becoz J 10 china ofered similar or better in capabilities and new fighter jet with canards and lower pricd tav witb reliable friend we waited and lower the F 16 to 18

When J 10B is fully devloped we did not got new J10 

Instead of stupid thinking still buying old F 16 from jordan and upgrade them still it is old its main frame is old avionics too

If you combine the amount of F 16 from jordan and upgration in this price tag we can get new and far bettef J 10 ready to fly rather than upgrading and every part is brand new and waste range of weapins better in manuverability u ask J 10 beat F 16 for PAF in all aspect

But dont know why these stupid thinkers are fully commited to bring misery on ourselves like in kargil war they were sleeping not getting bvr tech beford jargil if we got that capability india would had been begging for peace anyway im just saying think tank of PAF is not trust wirthy as pakustani

Their main agenda is making PAF videos it chief flying F 16 and bombing terrorist who dont pise any threat to fighter jets they are good at it only in real war they do nothing no contribution

I was reading in 71 war PAF pilots destroyed the PN boat by mistakd as it was of IN

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## Darth Vader

@Zarvan It Depends on How Fare they are Willing to Go and Invest in JF 17 If in near future , because it can be a really capable Jet But For That Few major upgrades JF 17 need is radar , Engine , Materials used to make airframe But this will also make it expensive but will also enhance Bird About the numbers 250 If you see the current Induction Time its sort of Slow if China jumps this can improve the timing and also reduce the cast too 

@A2Z @King of Hearts Collaborating its not that simple and cheap specially on the 5th gen jet RD takes time and Money Which Pakistan Didn't have and even now they go run around and spend on pdf wish list jf 17 which is a economy go 20m+ and price will go up all the 5th gen jets cost almost around 100 million Honestly tell me Can Pakistan afford 50 100m jets in the current economy ? thats just the jet price no training cast nothing . No Sir they cant
About J 10b Pakistan kept that option because of MRCA if india went for those jets Pakistan needed some thing to balance power in SA .but india didnt got anything But If You see Pakistan induct a full squadron of f 16s which saved alot of time and money and changed the game for PAF dont see these birds as just 13 birds but how much time they saved and gave operational capability ASAP unlike if Pakistan went for something new
Chinese 5th gen jets Wont be fully available for PAF before 2022+ F7PGS and mirage these jets Can Still get the job done and wont see these birds leaving before 2025 Because India Does have a large number of Migs in Service too , so to keep balance they need these jets as far as New platform PAF wont go for it until dont get new jets 

@Super Falcon Buying one of the best dog fighter in history is stupidity ? J10b is a new platform would have take a little time for Fly boys to get use to and Kargil and 71 was past get over it , Mistakes happen Even Now with Best Tech Available You cant be 100% sure


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## Zarvan

Darth Vader said:


> @Zarvan It Depends on How Fare they are Willing to Go and Invest in JF 17 If in near future , because it can be a really capable Jet But For That Few major upgrades JF 17 need is radar , Engine , Materials used to make airframe But this will also make it expensive but will also enhance Bird About the numbers 250 If you see the current Induction Time its sort of Slow if China jumps this can improve the timing and also reduce the cast too
> 
> @A2Z @King of Hearts Collaborating its not that simple and cheap specially on the 5th gen jet RD takes time and Money Which Pakistan Didn't have and even now they go run around and spend on pdf wish list jf 17 which is a economy go 20m+ and price will go up all the 5th gen jets cost almost around 100 million Honestly tell me Can Pakistan afford 50 100m jets in the current economy ? thats just the jet price no training cast nothing . No Sir they cant
> About J 10b Pakistan kept that option because of MRCA if india went for those jets Pakistan needed some thing to balance power in SA .but india didnt got anything But If You see Pakistan induct a full squadron of f 16s which saved alot of time and money and changed the game for PAF dont see these birds as just 13 birds but how much time they saved and gave operational capability ASAP unlike if Pakistan went for something new
> Chinese 5th gen jets Wont be fully available for PAF before 2022+ F7PGS and mirage these jets Can Still get the job done and wont see these birds leaving before 2025 Because India Does have a large number of Migs in Service too , so to keep balance they need these jets as far as New platform PAF wont go for it until dont get new jets
> 
> @Super Falcon Buying one of the best dog fighter in history is stupidity ? J10b is a new platform would have take a little time for Fly boys to get use to and Kargil and 71 was past get over it , Mistakes happen Even Now with Best Tech Available You cant be 100% sure



What I know is Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform. I think Pakistan should prefer either J-11 D or SU-35


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## princefaisal

aliyusuf said:


> I think we are emphasizing too much on the 5th Gen fighter acquisition.
> 
> In the case of the JF-17/FC-1, we had a good operational knowledge base of 4th Gen western fighters (mainly F-16s) to provide valuable inputs to the Thunder program. What collaboration or inputs can we provide on the 5th Gen fighter development program apart from money? Which, unfortunately, is in short supply at the moment. So that collaboration may not start any time soon as stealth programs are much much costlier than programs for fighters like the Thunder. Even the body (empty fuselage, wings and tail fins) is more costly compared to the conventional fighters of same size. Also the acquisition of fighters in this manner cost way more than buying something that is already under production and preferably in service somewhere.
> 
> What 5th Gen Options Do We Have?
> 
> Members here are predicting/hoping the induction of something like the J-31. Lets study whatever we know about its specs.
> 
> It is roughly the same size as the F-35 ... in fact marginally bigger. It has two engines whereas the F-35 has one. The F-35 can carry 2 X AMRAAM-120s, 4 X AIM-9s and 2 X 2000 lbs bombs internally. Anything more will have to be carried under the wings and the plane becomes non-stealthy. This issue is further compounded on the J-31. Since it has 2 X engines, there is less free internal space available. This plane can carry only 4 X AAMs internally ... and that's all. For air to ground role it will have to carry its munitions under the wing ... there goes its stealthiness. Furthermore it can carry slightly more than half the internal fuel as the F-35 (which does not have long legs itself). The Grey Falcon is going to be seriously short legged and will depend much more on aerial refueling than other planes. I am not saying that this plane is going to go up against the F-35 but just trying to highlight the issues that it is going to present (more severely) than those which are already being discussed unfavorably about the F-35. This fighter has a lot of issues to be ironed out and I don't realistically see it coming before 2025 .. if at all we choose it to be our 5th Gen solution.
> 
> The only other alternative will be the J-20. Which will be quite costly to acquire and even costlier to operate. Even if China agrees to sell this fighter to Pakistan ... that will only happen after sufficient numbers have been inducted into the PLAAF. I don't see even this happening before 2025.
> 
> Can the JF-17 block-III standard and F-16s soldier on till 2025 without further compromising the capability gap viz-a-viz the IAF?
> 
> Other member's opinion on what I have just stated will be greatly appreciated.


So there is a gap of 10 years, after which J-31 or J-20 will be inducted. But this 10 year gap should be filled with Su-35, J-11D or J-10C.


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## Darth Vader

Zarvan said:


> What I know is Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform. I think Pakistan should prefer either J-11 D or SU-35


Wont See any Twin Fighter Joining PAF in near 5 years , And For SU 35 , i Really dont Know After that Offer Everyone is Jumping For Su 35 , Yes its a great platform but Many things come into Play Pakistan will be keeping Western , Chinese , Russian Jets , Simply maintaining so many diverse platforms will be problem because we have to keep that in my mind in near future PAF will try to go for 5th Gen and try to save that money from 4.5 Gen jet and will see more F 16s nd 17 In PAF colours and keeping all these birds in one network will also be something , because all these birds use different networks and in current gene warfare those force which is more networked centred will have more chance to win



princefaisal said:


> So there is a gap of 10 years, after which J-31 or J-20 will be inducted. But this 10 year gap should be filled with Su-35, J-11D or J-10C.


Since They Are Buying All these Birds Few F 22 , F 18s Wont be a problem


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## CHI RULES

Darth Vader said:


> Wont See any Twin Fighter Joining PAF in near 5 years , And For SU 35 , i Really dont Know After that Offer Everyone is Jumping For Su 35 , Yes its a great platform but Many things come into Play Pakistan will be keeping Western , Chinese , Russian Jets , Simply maintaining so many diverse platforms will be problem because we have to keep that in my mind in near future PAF will try to go for 5th Gen and try to save that money from 4.5 Gen jet and will see more F 16s nd 17 In PAF colours and keeping all these birds in one network will also be something , because all these birds use different networks and in current gene warfare those force which is more networked centred will have more chance to win
> 
> 
> Since They Are Buying All these Birds Few F 22 , F 18s Wont be a problem



Pak may go for same engine for Jf17and future Chinese Single/Twin engine jet and even for J31 if inducted this will solve the problem in much better way. Further cheap old F16s will almost cost after upgarde equal to new J10b with strings and no upgrades regarding AESA/IRST which are must for future warfare. Even Pak F16s block 52 will be almost useless after few Years. Instead of filling numbers we also have to maintain some sort of long term deterrence.

Russian jets in the past prove to be mostly ineffective against Western Jets in the past, simalrly having issues like downgraded versions, maintenance reliability, further India may easily tackle Su 35 with the back end help from Russia.
So big no for Russian Jet. At best if Pak gets them then they should be upgraded with Chinese Techs.


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## vizier

Since India rafale deal is cancelled they would most probably go for more Sukhois. Also a counter punch maybe by Russian influence of France not transferring the mistral ship to Russia. By the way J10 B has radar cross section reduction measures like inlet modification similar to JF 17. It can match for everything that India can come up with. Also with its capabilities and reasonable price it would suit your fleet as well with indirectly financing China for J31 type of projects at the same time. 
Also there should be some budget to allocate to improve air defences at strategic locations urgently in my opinion instead of spending fully to acquire used aircraft or a small number of ultra expensive 4.5 gens.


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## Zarvan

Darth Vader said:


> Wont See any Twin Fighter Joining PAF in near 5 years , And For SU 35 , i Really dont Know After that Offer Everyone is Jumping For Su 35 , Yes its a great platform but Many things come into Play Pakistan will be keeping Western , Chinese , Russian Jets , Simply maintaining so many diverse platforms will be problem because we have to keep that in my mind in near future PAF will try to go for 5th Gen and try to save that money from 4.5 Gen jet and will see more F 16s nd 17 In PAF colours and keeping all these birds in one network will also be something , because all these birds use different networks and in current gene warfare those force which is more networked centred will have more chance to win
> 
> 
> Since They Are Buying All these Birds Few F 22 , F 18s Wont be a problem


Sir we always had several platforms we never just stuck to two so third 4.5th Generation would come the only question is which one ?


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## CHI RULES

For synergy of resources the country Air defense resources should be inter connected controlled under one command. Instead of current system PAF having different Air defence assets and Army having different.


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## A2Z

aliyusuf said:


> What collaboration or inputs can we provide on the 5th Gen fighter development program apart from money? Which, unfortunately, is in short supply at the moment. So that collaboration may not start any time soon as stealth programs are much much costlier than programs for fighters like the Thunder. Even the body (empty fuselage, wings and tail fins) is more costly compared to the conventional fighters of same size.


Unfortunately its a fact that we have almost nothing that we can offer as an input to any 5th generation program, but so does India but they are a partner in FGFA/T-50 program. Though we are short on cash but if we look at it from the perspective that what we will learn from such projects then that money would be well spent because IMO China can trusr Pakistan and provide our engineers an opportunity work on 5th generation aircraft.


aliyusuf said:


> It is roughly the same size as the F-35 ... in fact marginally bigger. It has two engines whereas the F-35 has one. The F-35 can carry 2 X AMRAAM-120s, 4 X AIM-9s and 2 X 2000 lbs bombs internally. Anything more will have to be carried under the wings and the plane becomes non-stealthy. This issue is further compounded on the J-31. Since it has 2 X engines, there is less free internal space available. This plane can carry only 4 X AAMs internally ... and that's all. For air to ground role it will have to carry its munitions under the wing ... there goes its stealthiness. Furthermore it can carry slightly more than half the internal fuel as the F-35 (which does not have long legs itself). The Grey Falcon is going to be seriously short legged and will depend much more on aerial refueling than other planes. I am not saying that this plane is going to go up against the F-35 but just trying to highlight the issues that it is going to present (more severely) than those which are already being discussed unfavorably about the F-35. This fighter has a lot of issues to be ironed out and I don't realistically see it coming before 2025 .. if at all we choose it to be our 5th Gen solution.
> 
> The only other alternative will be the J-20. Which will be quite costly to acquire and even costlier to operate. Even if China agrees to sell this fighter to Pakistan ... that will only happen after sufficient numbers have been inducted into the PLAAF. I don't see even this happening before 2025.


I totally agree with you that J-31 has its shortcomings that need to be addressed and it would certainly take time. However on the other hand it is the only 5th generation option that we have, J-20 is pretty much impossible for us firstly because of the cost and secondly because China has given clear cut signs that it would be something limited for PLAAF like F-22. As for other options F-35 and T-50 are something we would never get our hands on.


Super Falcon said:


> If you combine the amount of F 16 from jordan and upgration in this price tag we can get new and far bettef J 10 ready to fly rather than upgrading and every part is brand new and waste range of weapins better in manuverability u ask J 10 beat F 16 for PAF in all aspect


ou ara
I wont say that you are completely wrong but J-10 beats F-16 in almost all the requirement but have said it many times and again that F-16 is something that we know inside out over the years we have mastered the F-16 fighting. However on the other side J-10 if bought might be same in unit price but training and other things would certainly increase the cost and not to forget the time that would be needed to train our pilots fro J-10 and develop tactics for it.


Zarvan said:


> What I know is Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform. I think Pakistan should prefer either J-11 D or SU-35





princefaisal said:


> So there is a gap of 10 years, after which J-31 or J-20 will be inducted. But this 10 year gap should be filled with Su-35, J-11D or J-10C.


Su-35 is good fighter but as @CHI RULES pointed out it might become useless if IAF gets help from Russia which it would. Secondly Russian have the worst reputation when we talk about supplying spares, IAF's SU-30 has only 50% serviceability and the main reason is availability of spares and then Russian jets are a maintenance nightmare. Thirdly Russians would never offer us Su-35 not before 2020 that too if relations continue to improve.
So believe me PAF would never have the Su-35 option that leaves us with J-11D and J-10. J-11D again has many Russian inputs and again is in the phase of maturing.

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## princefaisal

J-11D seems more feasible than J-10 in replacing the mirage III/V aircrafts.


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## CHI RULES

Pak should now focus on Anti stealth capabilities and Passive sensors/radars instead of old systems. Whether it is Air defence or PAF jets we should prepare our selves for next era of stealth and hi jamming. Even now without Rafael IAF has jets with PESA radars and Irst/Jamming Pods along with RAM coatings which may prove to be effective enough in case of lighter fighter jets with exception of SU30. It will be highly appreciable if any one can compare radar ranges of Pak and IAF,


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## Super Falcon

A2Z said:


> Unfortunately its a fact that we have almost nothing that we can offer as an input to any 5th generation program, but so does India but they are a partner in FGFA/T-50 program. Though we are short on cash but if we look at it from the perspective that what we will learn from such projects then that money would be well spent because IMO China can trusr Pakistan and provide our engineers an opportunity work on 5th generation aircraft.
> 
> I totally agree with you that J-31 has its shortcomings that need to be addressed and it would certainly take time. However on the other hand it is the only 5th generation option that we have, J-20 is pretty much impossible for us firstly because of the cost and secondly because China has given clear cut signs that it would be something limited for PLAAF like F-22. As for other options F-35 and T-50 are something we would never get our hands on.
> ou ara
> I wont say that you are completely wrong but J-10 beats F-16 in almost all the requirement but have said it many times and again that F-16 is something that we know inside out over the years we have mastered the F-16 fighting. However on the other side J-10 if bought might be same in unit price but training and other things would certainly increase the cost and not to forget the time that would be needed to train our pilots fro J-10 and develop tactics for it.
> 
> 
> Su-35 is good fighter but as @CHI RULES pointed out it might become useless if IAF gets help from Russia which it would. Secondly Russian have the worst reputation when we talk about supplying spares, IAF's SU-30 has only 50% serviceability and the main reason is availability of spares and then Russian jets are a maintenance nightmare. Thirdly Russians would never offer us Su-35 not before 2020 that too if relations continue to improve.
> So believe me PAF would never have the Su-35 option that leaves us with J-11D and J-10. J-11D again has many Russian inputs and again is in the phase of maturing.


J 10B wont cost much china will give some consetion

We decided to buy J 10 in mushy visit to bug and lower the F 16 intial order from 72 to 18 almost 54 jet less but we dident get desired required jets in numbers and quality

I think J 10 is little cheaper than F 16 52 brand new and J 10 weapons are also cheap than amraam etc and of same quality


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## Super Falcon

Darth Vader said:


> @Zarvan It Depends on How Fare they are Willing to Go and Invest in JF 17 If in near future , because it can be a really capable Jet But For That Few major upgrades JF 17 need is radar , Engine , Materials used to make airframe But this will also make it expensive but will also enhance Bird About the numbers 250 If you see the current Induction Time its sort of Slow if China jumps this can improve the timing and also reduce the cast too
> 
> @A2Z @King of Hearts Collaborating its not that simple and cheap specially on the 5th gen jet RD takes time and Money Which Pakistan Didn't have and even now they go run around and spend on pdf wish list jf 17 which is a economy go 20m+ and price will go up all the 5th gen jets cost almost around 100 million Honestly tell me Can Pakistan afford 50 100m jets in the current economy ? thats just the jet price no training cast nothing . No Sir they cant
> About J 10b Pakistan kept that option because of MRCA if india went for those jets Pakistan needed some thing to balance power in SA .but india didnt got anything But If You see Pakistan induct a full squadron of f 16s which saved alot of time and money and changed the game for PAF dont see these birds as just 13 birds but how much time they saved and gave operational capability ASAP unlike if Pakistan went for something new
> Chinese 5th gen jets Wont be fully available for PAF before 2022+ F7PGS and mirage these jets Can Still get the job done and wont see these birds leaving before 2025 Because India Does have a large number of Migs in Service too , so to keep balance they need these jets as far as New platform PAF wont go for it until dont get new jets
> 
> @Super Falcon Buying one of the best dog fighter in history is stupidity ? J10b is a new platform would have take a little time for Fly boys to get use to and Kargil and 71 was past get over it , Mistakes happen Even Now with Best Tech Available You cant be 100% sure


Yes but atleast you give a chance even if you are not 100 percent sure it dont justify you keep your hands closed do nothing

If you cant learn from mistakes you cannot prevail in war PAF doing this over and over again

With threats from many nations IAF itching to intrude pakistan land growing indian naval ships and air arm our PAF is low in fighter jets and of quality 

If it was the case you operate two type of jets to cheap type thinking whu usa russia china india all operate different type of jet
And all of them have air superiority jet

I agree we are not as big as these nation nor in economy and force 

But magnitude of challanges and enemies we are at top most nation threats from india afghanistan and other agencies around the world

Stronger airforce will give caution to any adversaries to pakistan

In 1983 when we had F 16 which was peak fighter jet at that era one of the best at that time india never violated our air space regularly they were afraid of PAF 

STRONG AIRFORCE IS GURANTEE OF PEACE AND STABILITY IN POWER OF THIS REGION

weaker airforce will bring misery to pak history says it in kargil and 71 war so learn from mistakes rather than presenting our selfes in plate to india and playing into indian hands


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## Darth Vader

Super Falcon said:


> Yes but atleast you give a chance even if you are not 100 percent sure it dont justify you keep your hands closed do nothing
> 
> If you cant learn from mistakes you cannot prevail in war PAF doing this over and over again
> 
> With threats from many nations IAF itching to intrude pakistan land growing indian naval ships and air arm our PAF is low in fighter jets and of quality
> 
> If it was the case you operate two type of jets to cheap type thinking whu usa russia china india all operate different type of jet
> And all of them have air superiority jet
> 
> I agree we are not as big as these nation nor in economy and force
> 
> But magnitude of challanges and enemies we are at top most nation threats from india afghanistan and other agencies around the world
> 
> Stronger airforce will give caution to any adversaries to pakistan
> 
> In 1983 when we had F 16 which was peak fighter jet at that era one of the best at that time india never violated our air space regularly they were afraid of PAF
> 
> STRONG AIRFORCE IS GURANTEE OF PEACE AND STABILITY IN POWER OF THIS REGION
> 
> weaker airforce will bring misery to pak history says it in kargil and 71 war so learn from mistakes rather than presenting our selfes in plate to india and playing into indian hands


PAF is Not That Weak if you want me to repeat again and again em not up for that 
Its Not 71 or Kargil 
But Even Current Force is Capable Enough To counter any indian Move , in the current geo politics India is the Only biggest Enemy Pakistan Can see , Nothing is 100 % Even if you have best System Available`you wont be sure war is game of luck yes it does give you edge how you use others weakness for your benefits , You Keep Saying Stupidity Would you Enlight me What Makes you so superior that you are calling them stupid who are using these funds in the best possible way , are you part or were part of any force which gives you superior knowledge which the stupid PAF Doesnt have ?


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## Super Falcon

Darth Vader said:


> PAF is Not That Weak if you want me to repeat again and again em not up for that
> Its Not 71 or Kargil
> But Even Current Force is Capable Enough To counter any indian Move , in the current geo politics India is the Only biggest Enemy Pakistan Can see , Nothing is 100 % Even if you have best System Available`you wont be sure war is game of luck yes it does give you edge how you use others weakness for your benefits , You Keep Saying Stupidity Would you Enlight me What Makes you so superior that you are calling them stupid who are using these funds in the best possible way , are you part or were part of any force which gives you superior knowledge which the stupid PAF Doesnt have ?




On basis of mistakes in kargil and 71 made me say this and cutrently sorry we cant 
We have 99 F 16 and 50+JF 17 and few Mirages

IAF 250 SU 30, 100 Mig 29K, 50 Mirage 2000,and Rafale and PAK FA in few years

Please tell me how our F 16 and thunder counter these jets in numbers 3 to 1 and quality similar or better 

How PAF counter PAKFA 

If your answer id J 20

Than IAF will get PAKFA by 2020 and we waited for J10B just to fully develop yet not ordering when it is developed J 20 can get in china airforce by 2020 but as our thinking of PAF we will wait till 2025 to decide and need 2 more years to final order to induction 2030 will arrive 

Yes im not expert neither in airforce not me neither my last 7 generation of family has any info on airforce but i do not mean you cannot have knowledge

And Sense should prevail reality is you cannot destroy Fighter jet 3 to 1 and in quality they are at par but in numbers they win

Im not saying we buy mire jers but buy 30 to 50 SU 35 and you are goid to go for next 15 years well untill we get J 31

J 10B is also good if we get 36 looks good
99 F 16
36 J 10B
36 SU 35
100 JF 17

Will bring more options to PAF on table and can defend our skies bettef than today fleet india will never dare to cross our airspace 

Renember PAF enjoyed quality in past than IAF numbers in past

But now we are acking numbers and quality focusing on one type of jet is stupidity in war 

Today airlines in wirld cant rely on one type of supplier but 2 to 3 different types if suppliers
Im not comparing airline to airforce

But different platform bring different options

If we rely on F 16 And JF 17 once IAF got weakness of these jets we are gone with different type of jets they tend to cover each others weaknesses which bring doubts in IAF pilots minds how to counter different type of jets if they have F 16 weak point SU 35 cover it since they work on it they get killed

Yes im stupid because i want PAF to be sensible rather than waiting for misery in future and become pro active rather than reactive which PAF is

And after misery people like you dont talk

And death. vader do u have any agenda always to oppose me when most people agree with me on topic and yet you disagree


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## Darth Vader

Super Falcon said:


> On basis of mistakes in kargil and 71 made me say this and cutrently sorry we cant
> We have 99 F 16 and 50+JF 17 and few Mirages
> 
> IAF 250 SU 30, 100 Mig 29K, 50 Mirage 2000,and Rafale and PAK FA in few years
> 
> Please tell me how our F 16 and thunder counter these jets in numbers 3 to 1 and quality similar or better
> 
> How PAF counter PAKFA
> 
> If your answer id J 20
> 
> Than IAF will get PAKFA by 2020 and we waited for J10B just to fully develop yet not ordering when it is developed J 20 can get in china airforce by 2020 but as our thinking of PAF we will wait till 2025 to decide and need 2 more years to final order to induction 2030 will arrive
> 
> Yes im not expert neither in airforce not me neither my last 7 generation of family has any info on airforce but i do not mean you cannot have knowledge
> 
> And Sense should prevail reality is you cannot destroy Fighter jet 3 to 1 and in quality they are at par but in numbers they win
> 
> Im not saying we buy mire jers but buy 30 to 50 SU 35 and you are goid to go for next 15 years well untill we get J 31
> 
> J 10B is also good if we get 36 looks good
> 99 F 16
> 36 J 10B
> 36 SU 35
> 100 JF 17
> 
> Will bring more options to PAF on table and can defend our skies bettef than today fleet india will never dare to cross our airspace
> 
> Renember PAF enjoyed quality in past than IAF numbers in past
> 
> But now we are acking numbers and quality focusing on one type of jet is stupidity in war
> 
> Today airlines in wirld cant rely on one type of supplier but 2 to 3 different types if suppliers
> Im not comparing airline to airforce
> 
> But different platform bring different options
> 
> If we rely on F 16 And JF 17 once IAF got weakness of these jets we are gone with different type of jets they tend to cover each others weaknesses which bring doubts in IAF pilots minds how to counter different type of jets if they have F 16 weak point SU 35 cover it since they work on it they get killed
> 
> Yes im stupid because i want PAF to be sensible rather than waiting for misery in future and become pro active rather than reactive which PAF is
> 
> And after misery people like you dont talk
> 
> And death. vader do u have any agenda always to oppose me when most people agree with me on topic and yet you disagree



Will Start From The Last Point i d k what you mean by em always opposing you ? I dont even post that much only reply which are worth replying Seriously agenda yup i was sent by aliens to destroy humans by opposing you  now jokes aside
Pakistan will Always be a defensive offensive force , Let me share few points With You
All Forces Develop their strategies according to the conditions and they enemies they are facing 
Indian Cant Deploy all its force just to Face Pakistan Will till Few years Back Did have that advantage 
Yes Pakistan need Birds ASAP but keeping Few capable jets instead of keep loads of different gives you few benefits in war 1st they are easy to maintain , more fly sorties cheaper , list goes on and on in all around it gives you better performance when you need it at its most 
I m all ok with the wishlist it will better if we get f22s f 35s , f18s but not gone happen
Its not World War 2 Were you only can depend on jets to hit inner states of a country for that Pakistan have Different Weapons
In Current scenario Pakistan Only Needs Few Good Sams AWACS and Change Older aircrafts with JF 17s ASAP 
just replacing these ageing crafts with thunder Will give you huge boost , Unlike for jumping on different platform Pakistan can develop thunder even more into a really capable craft all the things you Fan boys want can come into this same package , Just Need to put a small capable aesa and some more materials into air frame , which will help air frame to take more loadout 

f 16 is a more of a striker for Pakistan To keep Tech Gap in check with India , and keep counter the invaders its not some Video game where who deploy most Soldiers will win nop my friend and IAF Wont be deploying all these Birds Yes thunder cant beat these birds alone but when they are in Pakistan territory they will be Facing AWACS , SAMS , Different Birds it wont be just BVR mostly it will be WVR in which Pakistani older crafts will also come in play 
,Thunder will cover the older jets 
AS Pakistan have ageing aircraft so does india and those are more in numbers and in near future that gap will also come down As for Now Pakistan is trying to bring the new fighters instead of just waiting, JF 17 is the best option they have now


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## Super Falcon

Darth Vader said:


> Will Start From The Last Point i d k what you mean by em always opposing you ? I dont even post that much only reply which are worth replying Seriously agenda yup i was sent by aliens to destroy humans by opposing you  now jokes aside
> Pakistan will Always be a defensive offensive force , Let me share few points With You
> All Forces Develop their strategies according to the conditions and they enemies they are facing
> Indian Cant Deploy all its force just to Face Pakistan Will till Few years Back Did have that advantage
> Yes Pakistan need Birds ASAP but keeping Few capable jets instead of keep loads of different gives you few benefits in war 1st they are easy to maintain , more fly sorties cheaper , list goes on and on in all around it gives you better performance when you need it at its most
> I m all ok with the wishlist it will better if we get f22s f 35s , f18s but not gone happen
> Its not World War 2 Were you only can depend on jets to hit inner states of a country for that Pakistan have Different Weapons
> In Current scenario Pakistan Only Needs Few Good Sams AWACS and Change Older aircrafts with JF 17s ASAP
> just replacing these ageing crafts with thunder Will give you huge boost , Unlike for jumping on different platform Pakistan can develop thunder even more into a really capable craft all the things you Fan boys want can come into this same package , Just Need to put a small capable aesa and some more materials into air frame , which will help air frame to take more loadout
> 
> f 16 is a more of a striker for Pakistan To keep Tech Gap in check with India , and keep counter the invaders its not some Video game where who deploy most Soldiers will win nop my friend and IAF Wont be deploying all these Birds Yes thunder cant beat these birds alone but when they are in Pakistan territory they will be Facing AWACS , SAMS , Different Birds it wont be just BVR mostly it will be WVR in which Pakistani older crafts will also come in play
> ,Thunder will cover the older jets
> AS Pakistan have ageing aircraft so does india and those are more in numbers and in near future that gap will also come down As for Now Pakistan is trying to bring the new fighters instead of just waiting, JF 17 is the best option they have now


Best of luck with your theory if a cycle can win a air war i will buy cycle not caf hope and wish that your theory works in war we dont need to buy a car thanks looking forward.

And JF 17 can never be Air superiority fighter jet no matter what even u put all tech of F 22 still its airfrane and its avionics will remain same and with that size and wingspan it cannot do what air superiority jet does it secures your AIRSPACE at other hand Multirole jets can do air superiority job but not efectively against true air superiority jet


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## A2Z

Super Falcon said:


> J 10B wont cost much china will give some consetion
> 
> We decided to buy J 10 in mushy visit to bug and lower the F 16 intial order from 72 to 18 almost 54 jet less but we dident get desired required jets in numbers and quality
> 
> I think J 10 is little cheaper than F 16 52 brand new and J 10 weapons are also cheap than amraam etc and of same quality


OK agreed that J-10's weapons package is cheaper than F-16's but what about the training that we would need? JF-17 is part of PAF since 2007 and yet we have not developed complete tactics for it in fact it was recently when it was inducted in airschool to develop tactics and train pilots accordingly. 

Its not that I am against J-10, infact when we talk about network centric warfare then J-10 is more ideal for us because we can connect them with our chinese AWACS something not possible with F-16 as USA would never allow that. The fact is that our airforce is very much satisfied with F-16s and are of opinion that we don't need J-10 until and unless our adversary goes for Rafale or something of that caliber. Even our former airchief has said this in an interview that at the moment we don't require another 4th or 4.5th gen platform. As a matter of fact if we go for J-10 in future I would like it to be J-10C and at-least 150 of them.


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## Super Falcon

A2Z said:


> OK agreed that J-10's weapons package is cheaper than F-16's but what about the training that we would need? JF-17 is part of PAF since 2007 and yet we have not developed complete tactics for it in fact it was recently when it was inducted in airschool to develop tactics and train pilots accordingly.
> 
> Its not that I am against J-10, infact when we talk about network centric warfare then J-10 is more ideal for us because we can connect them with our chinese AWACS something not possible with F-16 as USA would never allow that. The fact is that our airforce is very much satisfied with F-16s and are of opinion that we don't need J-10 until and unless our adversary goes for Rafale or something of that caliber. Even our former airchief has said this in an interview that at the moment we don't require another 4th or 4.5th gen platform. As a matter of fact if we go for J-10 in future I would like it to be J-10C and at-least 150 of them.


Bhai when we get F 16 the same issue hapened but these small things dont mean that u dont move forward if other airforces think like u for training tactics fighter jet industry would been closed after ww2


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## New World

A2Z said:


> we don't need J-10 until and unless our adversary goes for Rafale or something of that caliber


what if India cancel Rafale order and order more Su-30 MKI's than?? right now more than 230 are in service out of 272 and 40 are also on order and if they order more 40 mki than??


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## A2Z

New World said:


> what if India cancel Rafale order and order more Su-30 MKI's than?? right now more than 230 are in service out of 272 and 40 are also on order and if they order more 40 mki than??


MKI is not as big of a treat as Rafale. It is a huge fighter with very large RCS, with a sightly improved radar thunder and F-16 wil easily pick it up before it picks them. Another factor that is in PAF's favor is MKI has very low serviceability this means IAF will only be able to deploy only a fraction of MKIs against Pakistan. However if they are able to get Rafale then the game would change as Rafale is something next level as compared to MKI.


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## New World

A2Z said:


> MKI is not as big of a treat as Rafale. It is a huge fighter with very large RCS, with a sightly improved radar thunder and F-16 wil easily pick it up before it picks them. Another factor that is in PAF's favor is MKI has very low serviceability this means IAF will only be able to deploy only a fraction of MKIs against Pakistan. However if they are able to get Rafale then the game would change as Rafale is something next level as compared to MKI.


LOL! what a logic 230 su-30mki which each carry max 6 bvr missiles are no problem because mki has high RCS as compared to falcon...


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## A2Z

New World said:


> LOL! what a logic 230 su-30mki which each carry max 6 bvr missiles are no problem because mki has high RCS as compared to falcon...


You would not have LOLed if you had read the post correctly and tried to understand what I was trying to convey. I never said MKI is not a problem for PAF my point was MKI's treat is nothing compared to the treat posed by Rafale. Secondly RCS is just a factor that I think goes in PAF favor.


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## Zarvan

A2Z said:


> You would not have LOLed if you had read the post correctly and tried to understand what I was trying to convey. I never said MKI is not a problem for PAF my point was MKI's treat is nothing compared to the treat posed by Rafale. Secondly RCS is just a factor that I think goes in PAF favor.


Pakistan should counter threat posed by Rafale also our best options are either J-10 B or J-11 D we need to go for one of these at least and in large numbers


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## New World

A2Z said:


> You would not have LOLed if you had read the post correctly and tried to understand what I was trying to convey. I never said MKI is not a problem for PAF my point was MKI's treat is nothing compared to the treat posed by Rafale. Secondly RCS is just a factor that I think goes in PAF favor.


who the cares about RCS when those fcking mki are armed with bvr missiles and awacs killer missiles..


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## Erroroverload

f16s can counter MKI ,


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## abdulbarijan

New World said:


> who the cares about RCS when those fcking mki are armed with bvr missiles and awacs killer missiles..



You know I like the posts of criticism on these defense matters and have criticized myself on some of the things that I found illogical and such but after Mastan Sahib has done 2-3 odd threads pointing out some factors ... seems as if being a "harsh critic" is now in fashion on PDF ... Now don't get me wrong ... I respect Mastan sahib's opinions, because of the simple fact that he actually expands upon what he believes and all that ...

and then there are critics like yourself --- whose entire post is like "ohh MKI has BVR -- what will we do" --- Do read up a little on here -- because the arguments you present are frankly laughable ...

First off your going about 230 MKI's as if IAF is going to launch 230 MKI's in one strike -- completely disregarding the fact that they have a future super power to worry about at one front .. and then they have to worry about the nuclear threshold, the times have changed to a point where India has lost its biggest weapon i.e numerical superiority as it becomes a non factor because crossing a certain threshold means jumping in to hell -- literally ...

Secondly -- the defensive doctrine of PAF is such that it has to maintain a 3:1 ratio with the IAF to meet the challenges ... and that we are ... as for your SU-30 MKI being almighty and powerful -- seems like you have been too much on IDF or BR .. look what happened to the almighty MKI at red flag 08 where it became the breakfast, lunch and dinner of the 15's and 16's ...

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should counter threat posed by Rafale also our best options are either J-10 B or J-11 D we need to go for one of these at least and in large numbers


Man you live in your wet dream and wishful thinking J+10 is just started to inducted by PLAAF in small number First they will induct PLAAF in large numbers then we thought about it and as for J-11 d forget about it, it is not even in production line and first priority is to induct it in PLAAF in large numbers, I think that J-11d will available for PAF after 2018 , 2020, so wakeup Mr ZARVAN from your wet dreams

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## aliyusuf

Why is it necessary to be rude and aggressive to present a difference of opinion?


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> Man you live in your wet dream and wishful thinking J+10 is just started to inducted by PLAAF in small number First they will induct PLAAF in large numbers then we thought about it and as for J-11 d forget about it, it is not even in production line and first priority is to induct it in PLAAF in large numbers, I think that J-11d will available for PAF after 2018 , 2020, so wakeup Mr ZARVAN from your wet dreams


I am not in any dream may be you are. You have any idea about Chinese production rate if not than don't talk and J-11 D in few months will enter mass production. Pakistan needs third 4.5th Generation platform and best and most easy option for us is J-10 B or J-11 D


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## abdulbarijan

Zarvan said:


> I am not in any dream may be you are. You have any idea about Chinese production rate if not than don't talk and J-11 D in few months will enter mass production. Pakistan needs third 4.5th Generation platform and best and most easy option for us is J-10 B or J-11 D



Zarvan bhai, the problem is not the production rate --* it is whether we NEED it or not -- and by NEED the meaning is..

"If we don't acquire it, the balance of power shifts once again in India's favor" *

If we talk today, we have to face MKI's, Mig-29's and M2K's along with older Migs of the IAF .. such a fleet can be negotiated (under a defensive doctrine) by increasing the numbers of F-16's ... and adding more teeth to the JF-17's by the integration of new weapons .. and the whole up gradation process the PAF is eyeing for post 2018 ... while replacing obsolete aircrafts .. and maybe even increasing the number of JF-17's to negotiate with the new additions of SU-30's to the IAF ...

I don't know .. but it is not really possible to have an aircraft identified in the time that you have and then going to have to put a "counter" for that aircraft hence the focus is not to have A vs B's sorta thing but to have an all around air force that is technologically generally on the same level as the opponent ...

The situation changes if the rafale deal is confirmed ... then we would have to go for a heavier platform in the J-10B or J-11B/D, modifying it to our needs as we have previously done to many platforms like F-7 PG etc.... In such a case I believe that the focus should be on killing two birds with one stone, acquiring J-11 D's in a number that can not only serve as a stop gap solution for PAF until we can go 5th generation but also have it serve as a naval platform (just 1 odd squadron along with a squadron of JFT's) ..
*

However this all depends on whether the PAF thinks that there is a NEED for such an action and ofcourse if we have enough budget or other measures to secure these jets... *






uniqueudai said:


> chinese selling their crap to pakistan having no role of utilization during war with india.
> 
> chinese selling their crap to pakistan having no role of utilization during war with india.
> 
> china selling its crap to pakistan having no advancing role against india in situation of war



Don't worry -- we have enough of these guys to take care of the likes of you ...

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## New World

abdulbarijan said:


> You know I like the posts of criticism on these defense matters and have criticized myself on some of the things that I found illogical and such but after Mastan Sahib has done 2-3 odd threads pointing out some factors ... seems as if being a "harsh critic" is now in fashion on PDF ... Now don't get me wrong ... I respect Mastan sahib's opinions, because of the simple fact that he actually expands upon what he believes and all that ...
> 
> and then there are critics like yourself --- whose entire post is like "ohh MKI has BVR -- what will we do" --- Do read up a little on here -- because the arguments you present are frankly laughable ...
> 
> First off your going about 230 MKI's as if IAF is going to launch 230 MKI's in one strike -- completely disregarding the fact that they have a future super power to worry about at one front .. and then they have to worry about the nuclear threshold, the times have changed to a point where India has lost its biggest weapon i.e numerical superiority as it becomes a non factor because crossing a certain threshold means jumping in to hell -- literally ...
> 
> Secondly -- the defensive doctrine of PAF is such that it has to maintain a 3:1 ratio with the IAF to meet the challenges ... and that we are ... as for your SU-30 MKI being almighty and powerful -- seems like you have been too much on IDF or BR .. look what happened to the almighty MKI at red flag 08 where it became the breakfast, lunch and dinner of the 15's and 16's ...


first, what if india unleash all available Su-30 mki on pakistan.. will PAF be able to defend with 76 f-16 and 60 f-17.. 
secondly as you said PAF has defensive doctrine than where are high altitude SAMs to defend us in case if jets fail to protect...

Thirdly... will fat-man fight with knife against slim man when he has assault rifle.... no one can beat f-16 in dog-fight but this era is of bvr..


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## abdulbarijan

New World said:


> first, what if india unleash all available Su-30 mki on pakistan.. will PAF be able to defend with 76 f-16 and 60 f-17..
> secondly as you said PAF has defensive doctrine than where are high altitude SAMs to defend us in case if jets fail to protect...
> 
> Thirdly... will fat-man fight with knife against slim man when he has assault rifle.... no one can beat f-16 in dog-fight but this era is of bvr..



Like I said, read a little before you write a paragraph repeating the same stuff over again ...

-The Indian military crossing a 'red line' means the possibility of nuclear strikes ... so that is a no-no thing for India. Then it has to have enough assets to secure itself in case of a two front war ... hence using all possible assets in one go is not really a possibility ... add in the serviceability issues that the SU-30 MKI faces, so yeah Ill stick with my point unless you can discredit it by posting something rational and not some "what if" situations ... the same goes for the defensive doctrine ... JF-17's along with F-16's in of themselves are a VERY REAL threat for the IAF ... add in C4I, AWACS, SAMS and MANPADS --- you have an airforce that has the ability to defend its airspace ... refer to what happened to the IAF's surgical strikes post 26/11 and operation parakram before you go any further with your comments....

- Lastly, "the era is of bvr" -- How is this an argument at all ???
So you mean F-16's and JF-17's dont have BVR's ?? -- Infact the Aim-120 C5's we have are among the best in the world ... the SD-10 is not to be taken lightly either ... and as the up gradation process continues there are programs for other weapons to be inducted with the JFT that will increase its capabilities ...

So like I said ... please read up on the MLU upgrades, the weapons in service and the info pool thread we have in the forum before you make whopping statements like the ones Ive quoted ... and please dont quote me any further if the only points you have are one liners without any context whatsoever ...



New World said:


> as Nuclear is all over in your head so i can't further talk with you on conventional toys..



Well you never responded to any points about the conventional stuff either .... but then again ... , just putting things in to perspective --- Pakistan is a nuclear power ---- THAT IS A REALITY-- and that has quite a significant effects on the approach the enemy will take if it wishes war ...


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## New World

abdulbarijan said:


> Like I said, read a little before you write a paragraph repeating the same stuff over again ...
> 
> -The Indian military crossing a 'red line' means the possibility of *nuclear strikes* ... so that is a no-no thing for India. Then it has to have enough assets to secure itself in case of a two front war ... hence using all possible assets in one go is not really a possibility ... add in the serviceability issues that the SU-30 MKI faces, so yeah Ill stick with my point unless you can discredit it by posting something rational and not some "what if" situations ... the same goes for the defensive doctrine ... JF-17's along with F-16's in of themselves are a VERY REAL threat for the IAF ... add in C4I, AWACS, SAMS and MANPADS --- you have an airforce that has the ability to defend its airspace ... refer to what happened to the IAF's surgical strikes post 26/11 and operation parakram before you go any further with your comments....
> 
> - Lastly, "the era is of bvr" -- How is this an argument at all ???
> So you mean F-16's and JF-17's dont have BVR's ?? -- Infact the Aim-120 C5's we have are among the best in the world ... the SD-10 is not to be taken lightly either ... and as the up gradation process continues there are programs for other weapons to be inducted with the JFT that will increase its capabilities ...
> 
> So like I said ... please read up on the MLU upgrades, the weapons in service and the info pool thread we have in the forum before you make whopping statements like the ones Ive quoted ... and please dont quote me any further if the only points you have are one liners without any context whatsoever ...


as Nuclear is all over in your head so i can't further talk with you on conventional toys..


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## arif hamza

please someone help me I'm new and I don't know how to start a new conversation


thanks for your answers.


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> I am not in any dream may be you are. You have any idea about Chinese production rate if not than don't talk and J-11 D in few months will enter mass production. Pakistan needs third 4.5th Generation platform and best and most easy option for us is J-10 B or J-11 D


OK Mr ZARVAN Pakistan do need a 4.5th generation platform, but first customer of J-10B and J-11D is PLAAF to induct those fighter for enough numbers, than we talk about PAF so if the deal is singed in 2015 for J-10B, J-11D or both than those goodies will arrived atleast in 2018 to 2020 timeframe, and in 2018 JF-17 blk-3 will come to PAF and its has almost same capable as J-10B , now focus on JF-17 to made it more indenginous for promote defence industry instead relaying on import fighters

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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> OK Mr ZARVAN Pakistan do need a 4.5th generation platform, but first customer of J-10B and J-11D is PLAAF to induct those fighter for enough numbers, than we talk about PAF so if the deal is singed in 2015 for J-10B, J-11D or both than those goodies will arrived atleast in 2018 to 2020 timeframe, and in 2018 JF-17 blk-3 will come to PAF and its has almost same capable as J-10B , now focus on JF-17 to made it more indigenous for promote defence industry instead relaying on import fighters


First customer is ready to sell us we just need to order them they would come in really large numbers. Pakistan has never depended on just two platforms that is not going to change in future. We need third 4.5th Generation Fighter for me preference should be J-11 D but if not than J-10 B


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> First customer is ready to sell us we just need to order them they would come in really large numbers. Pakistan has never depended on just two platforms that is not going to change in future. We need third 4.5th Generation Fighter for me preference should be J-11 D but if not than J-10 B


You mean J-11D or J-10B will come to PAF within year or two If the deal will singed, then you live in fantancyland and wishful thinking


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## black-hawk_101

I think the only think planned is: 150 JF-17s in total with 50 from each block.


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> You mean J-11D or J-10B will come to PAF within year or two If the deal will singed, then you live in fantancyland and wishful thinking


Yes they would start coming in an year China within few months can massively increase production rate


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Yes they would start coming in an year China within few months can massively increase production rate


Yaar get out of your Dreamlands, first priority is PLAAF not PAF first they induct in their airforce atleast in 150 numbers than they will come to PAF I think as soon as possible in middle 2018 or early 2019 get out of your foolworld Mr ZARVAN and live in real world you are stupid Mr


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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> Yaar get out of your Dreamlands, first priority is PLAAF not PAF first they induct in their airforce atleast in 150 numbers than they will come to PAF I think as soon as possible in middle 2018 or early 2019 get out of your foolworld Mr ZARVAN and live in real world you are stupid Mr


I know real world it is you who are in denial because of your totally wrong assumptions


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## A2Z

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan should counter threat posed by Rafale also our best options are either J-10 B or J-11 D we need to go for one of these at least and in large numbers


Well you are the biggest advocate of J-10B on this forum but I am of opinion that if we are going for another platform then it should be in heavy category so J-11D and that too with AESA. Secondly I favor J-11D because by the time we'll get J-10B JF-17 would be somewhat as capable as J-10B.


New World said:


> mki are armed with bvr missiles and awacs killer missiles..


And why do you think our F-16s and JF-17s wont be armed with such weapons?


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## Zarvan

A2Z said:


> Well you are the biggest advocate of J-10B on this forum but I am of opinion that if we are going for another platform then it should be in heavy category so J-11D and that too with AESA. Secondly I favor J-11D because by the time we'll get J-10B JF-17 would be somewhat as capable as J-10B.
> 
> And why do you think our F-16s and JF-17s wont be armed with such weapons?


I am not advocate of J-10 B I am advocate for at lease one more 4.5th Generation platform in our Air Force and in large numbers


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## Fireurimagination

The dilemma of PAF would arise if India opts for 126 Rafale (as decided originally) then Pakistan will have to decide whether to go for a 4.5 generation or directly for a 5 generation plane because India will eventually have PAK-FA. I believe Pakistan should opt for a good 4.5 generation to counter the likes of MKIs and Rafales because with 5 generation plane even India will have a limited number of them. But PAF will have to up the game if India goes for 126 Rafales, if it relies on F-16 and JF17s then IAF will have a decisive edge in any confrontation


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## Max Pain

uniqueudai said:


> chinese selling their crap to pakistan having no role of utilization during war with india.
> 
> chinese selling their crap to pakistan having no role of utilization during war with india.
> 
> china selling its crap to pakistan having no advancing role against india in situation of war


i have a feeling you aint gonna last much on this forum.


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## Maarkhoor

As per my best knowledge and doctrine of P.A.F we will not induct twin engine planes because twin engine Jets maintenance + fuel consumption double the expense which we can't accommodate. Pakistan will maintain two platforms for next few years. Until 4.5 or 5th generation Chinese made stealth fighter available for purchase.


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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> I know real world it is you who are in denial because of your totally wrong assumptions


J-11D is being built for PLAAF firstly they induct in large numbers to their airfoce, I can't understand why you insist that PAF will get those babies before PLAAF I don't get your logic


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## volatile

J10 b could be assembled locally when the time comes ,as already basic infrastrucute is in place so about PLAAF own that could be done from china


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## Beethoven

Guys I have said it before and I am going to say it again there is no point in going for a completely new fighter jet at this point when you have established infrastructure for the -52's very recently instead of going for fighters like J-10B or J-11D it would be wise to purchase -52's with that money make some savings and invest in fifth generation tech


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## alibaz

Zarvan said:


> The work is quietly being done you would know it when they would come


Let's assume they are doing it quietly but why are you beating drums.


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## A2Z

Fireurimagination said:


> The dilemma of PAF would arise if India opts for 126 Rafale (as decided originally) then Pakistan will have to decide whether to go for a 4.5 generation or directly for a 5 generation plane because India will eventually have PAK-FA. I believe Pakistan should opt for a good 4.5 generation to counter the likes of MKIs and Rafales because with 5 generation plane even India will have a limited number of them. But PAF will have to up the game if India goes for 126 Rafales, if it relies on F-16 and JF17s then IAF will have a decisive edge in any confrontation


India not going for Rafale is the only thing that is keeping PAF from not going for J-10B. PAF has given signs at times that until IAF goes for Rafale or Eurofighter we wont opt for J-10B. Until then they plan to given thunder as much teeth as possible and then directly jump to 5th generation platform.


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## IR-TR

China won't ever sell any Sukhoi derivatives. Simply because that's their unwritten agreement with Russia. China reverse engineered them, and as such can't sell them to anybody (same for their engines). J-10 surely will be exported. And I predict to Pakistan first.


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## New World

A2Z said:


> And why do you think our F-16s and JF-17s wont be armed with such weapons?


how many bvr missiles did a f-16 and jf-17 can carry??


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## Kakaspai

IR-TR said:


> China won't ever sell any Sukhoi derivatives. Simply because that's their unwritten agreement with Russia. China reverse engineered them, and as such can't sell them to anybody (same for their engines). J-10 surely will be exported. And I predict to Pakistan first.


i thought j11d was full indigenous.it has Chinese avionics and Chinese engine


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## IR-TR

Kakaspai said:


> i thought j11d was full indigenous.it has Chinese avionics and Chinese engine



That may be true, but the basic airframe is still a Sukhoi. Russia can tolerate China equipping themselves with it (that means only obstructing Russian exports TO China), but it cannot tolerate China exporting reverse engineered Russian designs (destroying ALL Russian exports to anybody). That's pretty much the unwritten agreement between both nations. So no Sukhoi derivative exports ever. All that will be exported in the foreseeable future are the J-10, J-31 or any other aircraft that the Chinese may design/develop.


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## abdulbarijan

New World said:


> how many bvr missiles did a f-16 and jf-17 can carry??



You know.. I thought I wouldn't respond to you ... but then I see posts like these on multiple threads .. and I usually hold back when it comes to brethren but I guess we have to make an exception in your case ...

If China were to arm JH-7's with BVR's and nothing but BVR's -- by your logic it would become the best aircraft in the subcontinent .... atleast in BVR combat ..

BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR, because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's ...

When your talking about BVR, first off you have to know where your opponent is and then get a lock and fire ... so first step is detection /tracking and then lock and fire ... the factor that you brush off all the time i.e RCS is the basic dictator of when an aircraft is going to be detected along with the radar that you field ... as far as the general calculations go .. SU-30 MKI's will see F-16's / JFT's around the same range as the F-16's/JFT's will detect/track the MKI's .. then it comes down to your weapons .. carrying capability matters but then again .. what type of weapon you have matters a heck of a lot more ... With Aim-120 C5 and SD-10 A, we have very credible BVR weaponry .. *you can go about and see senior members and professionals and usually when the discussion is whats the best BVR pound for pound in the subcontinent ... the usual inclination is towards the AMRAAM,* and by whats already in the public domain ... SD-10 A isn't far behind and it already has another version coming out soon enough ... the last thing you have to have is .. how much time will the BVR fight even last -- you have two aircrafts that detect each other at 120 odd Km's and fire at 40 Km range to maximize the capability of their weapons ... if both the weapons fail ... what will be the time frame in which they get in to WVR ... mere seconds if you know a little of relative velocity -- though we learned it back in the good old days where you had matric and not these goody toshoo O levels stuff ...

So what happens to a a bigger aircraft, that is granted ... more maneuverable --- but you have on the other hand aircrafts that are alot easier to fly in the hands of an airforce ... whose breakfast, lunch and dinner is about WVR ... because we didn't really have anything to work with back 5-7 years ... *hence the extra focus on WVR and the results show .. when the likes of F-22 pilots from USAF are out parsing the PAF pilots on how good and battle hardened they are (we were using PG's in those exercises (indus viper I think) .. that is correct the freakin F-7 PG!!!) ---so you can figure out the rest by yourself ...*

There is a huge list of cognitive biases ... which includes something called "anchoring bias" in which a person usually values a piece of information alot more then the "whole picture" -- 

so I urge you to see the whole picture and maybe look around and_ see a couple discussions from senior members around the topic ... You can find alot on the information pool thread of JF-17, the exercises thread, the thread on F-16 and the JF-17 multi role thread ..._

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

abdulbarijan said:


> You know I like the posts of criticism on these defense matters and have criticized myself on some of the things that I found illogical and such but after Mastan Sahib has done 2-3 odd threads pointing out some factors ... seems as if being a "harsh critic" is now in fashion on PDF ... Now don't get me wrong ... I respect Mastan sahib's opinions, because of the simple fact that he actually expands upon what he believes and all that ...
> 
> and then there are critics like yourself --- whose entire post is like "ohh MKI has BVR -- what will we do" --- Do read up a little on here -- because the arguments you present are frankly laughable ...
> 
> First off your going about 230 MKI's as if IAF is going to launch 230 MKI's in one strike -- completely disregarding the fact that they have a future super power to worry about at one front .. and then they have to worry about the nuclear threshold, the times have changed to a point where India has lost its biggest weapon i.e numerical superiority as it becomes a non factor because crossing a certain threshold means jumping in to hell -- literally ...
> 
> Secondly -- the* defensive doctrine of PAF is such that it has to maintain a 3:1 ratio *with the IAF to meet the challenges ... and that we are ... as for your SU-30 MKI being almighty and powerful -- seems like you have been too much on IDF or BR .. look what happened to the almighty MKI at red flag 08 where it became the breakfast, lunch and dinner of the 15's and 16's ...


this defensive doctrine is no less than digging ditches for our nation ...
and this 3:1 ratio is no joke , can a single man fight against 3 others and that too more stronger & faster ...?

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## abdulbarijan

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> this defensive doctrine is no less than digging ditches for our nation ...
> and this 3:1 ratio is no joke , can a single man fight against 3 others and that too more stronger & faster ...?



by your logic .. numerical superiority is everything .. tactics, the conditions under which a battle takes place, the fact that there are other players in the immediate region whose stakes are directly involved in our land etc etc ... means nothing ..

refer to what happened to the Soviet Union at the hands of Finland in world war II and thats before nukes ever got in the picture ... and the basic goal of the fins was to last enough time until allies come to help them out ... even though they ultimately lost --- the made the myth of the "almighty soviets" in to a mockery .... Infact lets remain on air war PAF itself has demonstrated that it can hold its own fighting under much worse then these 3:1 conditions against the very same IAF in 65 and 71 ... Many nations have demonstrated that if you use your resources carefully and are intelligent and aware of the opponents weaknesses and are able to exploit them you can not only last against a bigger opponent ... but whoop their behinds ... 

But then again... when you have a budget which is many times smaller then what you counter part is having, don't expect the same numbers, the same level of technology -- the best thing one can hope for is the smart use of the funds at hand ...


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## CAPRICORN-88

IR-TR said:


> That may be true, but the basic airframe is still a Sukhoi. Russia can tolerate China equipping themselves with it (that means only obstructing Russian exports TO China), but it cannot tolerate China exporting reverse engineered Russian designs (destroying ALL Russian exports to anybody). That's pretty much the unwritten agreement between both nations. So no Sukhoi derivative exports ever. All that will be exported in the foreseeable future are the J-10, J-31 or any other aircraft that the Chinese may design/develop.



You may have a point there although the J11B series is a completely different plane apart from the outlook e.g. J11B is slightly smaller in dimension hence the component parts for J11B will not fitted into the SU27 or SU30.

But who knows J11B series is still evolving and soon a completely new redesigned J11B series variant will appeared and be exported. How about the J-21 aka J31 stealth fighter?

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## IR-TR

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> You may have a point there although the J11B series is a completely different plane apart from the outlook e.g. J11B is slightly smaller in dimension hence the component parts for J11B will not fitted into the SU27 or SU30.
> 
> But who knows J11B series is still evolving and soon a completely new redesigned J11B series variant will appeared and be exported. How about the J-21 aka J31 stealth fighter?



The J-31 will be exported, but that will be a long while, although perhaps comparable with the Indian Pak-FA variant's development timeline. Although the Pak-FA should be superior to it (like India's flankers are superior to F-16s today). All in all, I see a good sized J-10 (modern) fleet in Pakistan's air force, and later on J-31s too. No J-11/16s. Because of the Russia deal. Russia and China are 'buddies', but that will go away when China takes over Russia's last bastion (arms exports).


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## Tipu7

abdulbarijan said:


> You know.. I thought I wouldn't respond to you ... but then I see posts like these on multiple threads .. and I usually hold back when it comes to brethren but I guess we have to make an exception in your case ...
> 
> If China were to arm JH-7's with BVR's and nothing but BVR's -- by your logic it would become the best aircraft in the subcontinent .... atleast in BVR combat ..
> 
> BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR, because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's ...
> 
> When your talking about BVR, first off you have to know where your opponent is and then get a lock and fire ... so first step is detection /tracking and then lock and fire ... the factor that you brush off all the time i.e RCS is the basic dictator of when an aircraft is going to be detected along with the radar that you field ... as far as the general calculations go .. SU-30 MKI's will see F-16's / JFT's around the same range as the F-16's/JFT's will detect/track the MKI's .. then it comes down to your weapons .. carrying capability matters but then again .. what type of weapon you have matters a heck of a lot more ... With Aim-120 C5 and SD-10 A, we have very credible BVR weaponry .. *you can go about and see senior members and professionals and usually when the discussion is whats the best BVR pound for pound in the subcontinent ... the usual inclination is towards the AMRAAM,* and by whats already in the public domain ... SD-10 A isn't far behind and it already has another version coming out soon enough ... the last thing you have to have is .. how much time will the BVR fight even last -- you have two aircrafts that detect each other at 120 odd Km's and fire at 40 Km range to maximize the capability of their weapons ... if both the weapons fail ... what will be the time frame in which they get in to WVR ... mere seconds if you know a little of relative velocity -- though we learned it back in the good old days where you had matric and not these goody toshoo O levels stuff ...
> 
> So what happens to a a bigger aircraft, that is granted ... more maneuverable --- but you have on the other hand aircrafts that are alot easier to fly in the hands of an airforce ... whose breakfast, lunch and dinner is about WVR ... because we didn't really have anything to work with back 5-7 years ... *hence the extra focus on WVR and the results show .. when the likes of F-22 pilots from USAF are out parsing the PAF pilots on how good and battle hardened they are (we were using PG's in those exercises (indus viper I think) .. that is correct the freakin F-7 PG!!!) ---so you can figure out the rest by yourself ...*
> 
> There is a huge list of cognitive biases ... which includes something called "anchoring bias" in which a person usually values a piece of information alot more then the "whole picture" --
> 
> so I urge you to see the whole picture and maybe look around and_ see a couple discussions from senior members around the topic ... You can find alot on the information pool thread of JF-17, the exercises thread, the thread on F-16 and the JF-17 multi role thread ..._




Compared to Rafael...... what is RCS value of J10b.......?


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## New World

abdulbarijan said:


> You know.. I thought I wouldn't respond to you ... but then I see posts like these on multiple threads .. and I usually hold back when it comes to brethren but I guess we have to make an exception in your case ...
> 
> If China were to arm JH-7's with BVR's and nothing but BVR's -- by your logic it would become the best aircraft in the subcontinent .... atleast in BVR combat ..
> 
> BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR, because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's ...
> 
> When your talking about BVR, first off you have to know where your opponent is and then get a lock and fire ... so first step is detection /tracking and then lock and fire ... the factor that you brush off all the time i.e RCS is the basic dictator of when an aircraft is going to be detected along with the radar that you field ... as far as the general calculations go .. SU-30 MKI's will see F-16's / JFT's around the same range as the F-16's/JFT's will detect/track the MKI's .. then it comes down to your weapons .. carrying capability matters but then again .. what type of weapon you have matters a heck of a lot more ... With Aim-120 C5 and SD-10 A, we have very credible BVR weaponry .. *you can go about and see senior members and professionals and usually when the discussion is whats the best BVR pound for pound in the subcontinent ... the usual inclination is towards the AMRAAM,* and by whats already in the public domain ... SD-10 A isn't far behind and it already has another version coming out soon enough ... the last thing you have to have is .. how much time will the BVR fight even last -- you have two aircrafts that detect each other at 120 odd Km's and fire at 40 Km range to maximize the capability of their weapons ... if both the weapons fail ... what will be the time frame in which they get in to WVR ... mere seconds if you know a little of relative velocity -- though we learned it back in the good old days where you had matric and not these goody toshoo O levels stuff ...
> 
> So what happens to a a bigger aircraft, that is granted ... more maneuverable --- but you have on the other hand aircrafts that are alot easier to fly in the hands of an airforce ... whose breakfast, lunch and dinner is about WVR ... because we didn't really have anything to work with back 5-7 years ... *hence the extra focus on WVR and the results show .. when the likes of F-22 pilots from USAF are out parsing the PAF pilots on how good and battle hardened they are (we were using PG's in those exercises (indus viper I think) .. that is correct the freakin F-7 PG!!!) ---so you can figure out the rest by yourself ...*
> 
> There is a huge list of cognitive biases ... which includes something called "anchoring bias" in which a person usually values a piece of information alot more then the "whole picture" --
> 
> so I urge you to see the whole picture and maybe look around and_ see a couple discussions from senior members around the topic ... You can find alot on the information pool thread of JF-17, the exercises thread, the thread on F-16 and the JF-17 multi role thread ..._


bhai, me tou bs ye jan'na chahta tha k f-16 aur f-17 kitne bvr missile carry kar sakty confirmation k lye..
is lye maine @A2Z se sawal kya..... lekin app ne tou puri raam katha suna de bina jawab dye..


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## abdulbarijan

Tipu7 said:


> Compared to Rafael...... what is RCS value of J10b.......?



We used to have a good thread back in the days about situational awareness ... I think it was "RCS of different fighters" .. You might need to do some digging but the thread is a good one ... plus do refer to Gambits posts on RCS to get a better grip of the concept...

First off, RCS of a single fighter differs ... depends on the direction ... to put it in simple terms that the like of us can get ... the frontal RCS of a fighter is different ... the RCS of the sides is different etc etc... but usually the standard is the frontal RCS ...

As far as the figures go .. I read it somewhere, perhaps the same thread I was talking about previously, that the RCS for thee rafale is 1/10th of Mirage 2000 so that would be 0.1 m2 frontal RCS ... As far as the J-10 B goes, I don't know of any figures that have been floating ... but from the Chinese forums we do know that the J-11 B in clean configuration has a RCS of 3m2 ... while the original SU-27's are in excess of 15m2 RCS ... and RCS reduction on J-10B has been claimed ... so you can draw your own conclusions there ...

But then again, with such 4th generation aircrafts where you have weapons and fuel tanks outside the body, the RCS rises quite a bit ...




New World said:


> bhai, me tou bs ye jan'na chahta tha k f-16 aur f-17 kitne bvr missile carry kar sakty confirmation k lye..
> is lye maine @A2Z se sawal kya..... lekin app ne tou puri raam katha suna de bina jawab dye..



F-16 can carry around 6 odd AMRAAMS, while JF-17 in current configurations is supposed to carry two -- and with multi-ejector racks will be able to carry 4 SD-10's ....

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The next few year we will see the emergence of a different kind of aircraft. A re-furbished 3 gen aircraft with the technology and weapons of the 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft. We are actually seeing some of them now.

The KFIR with and aesa upgrade------the BLK 52 F 16 with an aesa upgrade----the mirage 2000 with an aesa upgrade----the JH7B with an aesa upgrade.

All these aircraft will get the state of the art avionics, radars, jammers and missiles and smart bombs. 5th gen aircraft are extremely expensive to manufacture---maintain and operate---so these older updated aircraft will do most of the leg work.

Right now we can only speculate---but with the high kill ratios of these modern day BVR missiles---it will not be very easy to assess what the first couple of days of air war look like.

The Tornados could launch WVR range missiles as well as BVR missiles----along with their regular weapons load----this just gave them some tools to fight back with.

The problem over here is with coming to grips with the technology---the conventional wisdom takes technology only so far----after that they just don't want to accept its powers and strengths.

So---let us put two aircraft side by side---A J11 and a JH7B-----both aircraft have the same aesa radar---bth have the same number of SD10B BVR missiles-----both are facing a similar oncoming target at the same distance-----both are going to launch at the same time---so why would the results are going to be different---no reason to under similar circumstances---because it is the radar lock and the missile doing the talking and not the aircraft---which is just a conduit of delivery at BVR.

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## Viper0011.

abdulbarijan said:


> As far as the figures go .. I read it somewhere, perhaps the same thread I was talking about previously, that the RCS for thee rafale is 1/10th of Mirage 2000 so that would be 0.1 m2 frontal RCS ...
> 
> *and RCS reduction on J-10B has been claimed*



1) Rafale's RCS isn't .1m2. Its much more than that. Rafale is a twin engine plane......the comparison with a Mirage 2000, was: (1): for marketing, and (2): frontal only.
US radars (TPS 77) and other advanced Chinese radars Pakistan has, are 3-D. Frontal RCS means nothing......try about .7m2 for Rafale, which is still very good for its size. If you were flying against Sudan or Nigeria or Bogota, you might get .1m2 due to older radars being used.

2) The J-10B has around .8m2 to 1m2, depending on the configuration (I am quoting A2A and frontal only). Add heavier bombs or anti-ship missiles, it adds up an additional 1.5m2 or slightly above. So overall, around 2m2-3m2, depending upon the loadout. J-10A has a bigger RCS around 4-5m2.

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## Darth Vader

abdulbarijan said:


> You know.. I thought I wouldn't respond to you ... but then I see posts like these on multiple threads .. and I usually hold back when it comes to brethren but I guess we have to make an exception in your case ...
> 
> If China were to arm JH-7's with BVR's and nothing but BVR's -- by your logic it would become the best aircraft in the subcontinent .... atleast in BVR combat ..
> 
> BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR, because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's ...
> 
> When your talking about BVR, first off you have to know where your opponent is and then get a lock and fire ... so first step is detection /tracking and then lock and fire ... the factor that you brush off all the time i.e RCS is the basic dictator of when an aircraft is going to be detected along with the radar that you field ... as far as the general calculations go .. SU-30 MKI's will see F-16's / JFT's around the same range as the F-16's/JFT's will detect/track the MKI's .. then it comes down to your weapons .. carrying capability matters but then again .. what type of weapon you have matters a heck of a lot more ... With Aim-120 C5 and SD-10 A, we have very credible BVR weaponry .. *you can go about and see senior members and professionals and usually when the discussion is whats the best BVR pound for pound in the subcontinent ... the usual inclination is towards the AMRAAM,* and by whats already in the public domain ... SD-10 A isn't far behind and it already has another version coming out soon enough ... the last thing you have to have is .. how much time will the BVR fight even last -- you have two aircrafts that detect each other at 120 odd Km's and fire at 40 Km range to maximize the capability of their weapons ... if both the weapons fail ... what will be the time frame in which they get in to WVR ... mere seconds if you know a little of relative velocity -- though we learned it back in the good old days where you had matric and not these goody toshoo O levels stuff ...
> 
> So what happens to a a bigger aircraft, that is granted ... more maneuverable --- but you have on the other hand aircrafts that are alot easier to fly in the hands of an airforce ... whose breakfast, lunch and dinner is about WVR ... because we didn't really have anything to work with back 5-7 years ... *hence the extra focus on WVR and the results show .. when the likes of F-22 pilots from USAF are out parsing the PAF pilots on how good and battle hardened they are (we were using PG's in those exercises (indus viper I think) .. that is correct the freakin F-7 PG!!!) ---so you can figure out the rest by yourself ...*
> 
> There is a huge list of cognitive biases ... which includes something called "anchoring bias" in which a person usually values a piece of information alot more then the "whole picture" --
> 
> so I urge you to see the whole picture and maybe look around and_ see a couple discussions from senior members around the topic ... You can find alot on the information pool thread of JF-17, the exercises thread, the thread on F-16 and the JF-17 multi role thread ..._




One Point BVR isnt at simple as much you guys make it , BVR if fired from long distance it also gives opponent chance to evade because distance comes in play , To cover that number of Missiles are fired but at with a time gap so even if your opponent evades your 1st missile , he wont be able to lose 2nd or 3rd because he will lose his energy in evading 1st missile 
Now Coming to Pakistan and India , US is depending alot on BVR Or other long range stand off missiles because of the its location , in Pakistan in india equation it will result will come in seconds and mostly it will be WVR 



Now J10 and J11 are good platforms no doubt about it But All you guys who are talking if india gets Rafale Paf will go for j10 or j11 , No doubt Rafale is one of the best 4.5 gen jet available in market , Can j10 or J11 match in its performance 
Because as when ever someone talks about air battle most of the members here talking about MKI and migs RCS , even there were some news about J11 has less rcs than Sukhoi family still going for that , 
You Wont See Rafale joining IAF before 2018 to 2019 So best time to upgrade fleet with a newer jet and than some same funds to go on shopping


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## Tipu7

abdulbarijan said:


> I don't know of any figures that have been floating ... but from the Chinese forums we do know that the J-11 B in clean configuration has a RCS of 3m2



I was on RCS thread too in which respective value of aircrafts were mentioned...... both UF and Rafale has RCS of order of 0.01-0.001..... J10b figures were not mentioned that's why I asked........ 3m square is big value........ provided that RCS of current 4thG aircrafts in our inventory has RCS equal or less than 1 .......


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## abdulbarijan

Darth Vader said:


> One Point BVR isnt at simple as much you guys make it , BVR if fired from long distance it also gives opponent chance to evade because distance comes in play , To cover that number of Missiles are fired but at with a time gap so even if your opponent evades your 1st missile , he wont be able to lose 2nd or 3rd because he will lose his energy in evading 1st missile
> Now Coming to Pakistan and India , US is depending alot on BVR Or other long range stand off missiles because of the its location , in Pakistan in india equation it will result will come in seconds and mostly it will be WVR
> 
> 
> 
> Now J10 and J11 are good platforms no doubt about it But All you guys who are talking if india gets Rafale Paf will go for j10 or j11 , No doubt Rafale is one of the best 4.5 gen jet available in market , Can j10 or J11 match in its performance
> Because as when ever someone talks about air battle most of the members here talking about MKI and migs RCS , even there were some news about J11 has less rcs than Sukhoi family still going for that ,
> You Wont See Rafale joining IAF before 2018 to 2019 So best time to upgrade fleet with a newer jet and than some same funds to go on shopping



Add in the EW capabilities, the ground based radars, AWACS, C4I along with the Surface to air missile defense and the discussion becomes even more complicated ...
I find the point of J-10B and J-11 alot more interesting though ... As far as the RCS debate goes @Viper0011. was kind enough to mention the RCS of J-10B and as far as we know the RCS of J-11B is 3m2 .. @Tipu7 -- 3m2 may seem bigger considering what we have in the F-16's and JF-17's ... however you should look at the frontal RCS's of the flanker series ... Up to 20m2 figures have been quoted ... even the latest SU-35 is supposed to be around 2m2 with heavy usage of RAM etc.

Regarding making a decision before India does ... well you may have a point ... but It is very unlike PAF .. PAF is more geared towards a reactive policy, hence only if the IAF goes for MMRCA .. will we go for a newer platform ... unless ofcourse PAF decides to make an exception this time around ... but when you look at the spending especially from the navy for 8 odd subs .. its highly unlikely that PAF will be going on a big heavy shopping spree anytime soon ...


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## Darth Vader

abdulbarijan said:


> Add in the EW capabilities, the ground based radars, AWACS, C4I along with the Surface to air missile defense and the discussion becomes even more complicated ...
> I find the point of J-10B and J-11 alot more interesting though ... As far as the RCS debate goes @Viper0011. was kind enough to mention the RCS of J-10B and as far as we know the RCS of J-11B is 3m2 .. @Tipu7 -- 3m2 may seem bigger considering what we have in the F-16's and JF-17's ... however you should look at the frontal RCS's of the flanker series ... Up to 20m2 figures have been quoted ... even the latest SU-35 is supposed to be around 2m2 with heavy usage of RAM etc.
> 
> Regarding making a decision before India does ... well you may have a point ... but It is very unlike PAF .. PAF is more geared towards a reactive policy, hence only if the IAF goes for MMRCA .. will we go for a newer platform ... unless ofcourse PAF decides to make an exception this time around ... but when you look at the spending especially from the navy for 8 odd subs .. its highly unlikely that PAF will be going on a big heavy shopping spree anytime soon ...


RCS change depending on the loadout of jet too , But one thing is lets just Say PAF and India get Rafale in 2017 in difference of few months as most members think soo , and Pakistan and India go into Battle , the most important of Air 2 Air is the experience of the pilot on that jet , So For me it mostly both of these will depend on the machines unlike in the past were PAF had to depend on WVR , Yes WVR will come into Play butRafale is a really agile platform and advance platform, if PAF had chosen this platform today we wouldnt be discussing this , as for AWACS will come into play but Pakistan lacks a High end Sam , which will play a crucial part in upcoming battles so for now its 50/50


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## Abingdonboy

Darth Vader said:


> You Wont See Rafale joining IAF before 2018 to 2019 So best time to upgrade fleet with a newer jet and than some same funds to go on shopping


France has assured India of deliveries of their Rafales starting 2017.


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## dy1022

We have 140KN+ WS-10B For J10B right now! Bye Bye AL-31F,X,N ...

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## Sulman Badshah

dy1022 said:


> We have 140KN+ WS-10B For J10B right now! Bye Bye AL-31F,X,N ...


isn't WS10 B is in testing phase (not in production one )

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## alee92nawaz

abdulbarijan said:


> Add in the EW capabilities, the ground based radars, AWACS, C4I along with the Surface to air missile defense and the discussion becomes even more complicated ...
> I find the point of J-10B and J-11 alot more interesting though ... As far as the RCS debate goes @Viper0011. was kind enough to mention the RCS of J-10B and as far as we know the RCS of J-11B is 3m2 .. @Tipu7 -- 3m2 may seem bigger considering what we have in the F-16's and JF-17's ... however you should look at the frontal RCS's of the flanker series ... Up to 20m2 figures have been quoted ... even the latest SU-35 is supposed to be around 2m2 with heavy usage of RAM etc.
> 
> Regarding making a decision before India does ... well you may have a point ... but It is very unlike PAF .. PAF is more geared towards a reactive policy, hence only if the IAF goes for MMRCA .. will we go for a newer platform ... unless ofcourse PAF decides to make an exception this time around ... but when you look at the spending especially from the navy for 8 odd subs .. its highly unlikely that PAF will be going on a big heavy shopping spree anytime soon ...


Is j10b deal still on ? Or just hoax ?



HAIDER said:


> China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in Canada.
> 
> Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.
> 
> Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.
> 
> Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B’s power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A’s 500 flight hours to the J-10B’s 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.
> 
> Source : Want China Times
> 
> * That' s the engine, which is game changer. Same engine is used in all Russian and Chinese stealth fighters/bombers. Plus same same type used in SU30/35. Same engine is modified for TVC. If Russia approve this engine, then for sure this plane will be in Pak fleet. If PAF has no other issues.



Is j10b deal still on ?????????


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## Tipu7

PAF is not going for J10b ........ Chill........
Who needs J10b when Su35S is coming ....


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## volatile

Is this TVC ?


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## sathya

Tipu7 said:


> PAF is not going for J10b ........ Chill........
> Who needs J10b when Su35S is coming ....





You should haved said who needs j10b when stealth fighter is being planned for.



volatile said:


> View attachment 259455
> 
> 
> Is this TVC ?


 That's the right tail

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## Beta-Fighter

Tipu7 said:


> PAF is not going for J10b ........ Chill........
> Who needs J10b when Su35S is coming ....


5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?


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## janu.bravo

Beta-Fighter said:


> 5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?


ATLEAST NOT WASTING 15 YEARS FOR MRCA

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## Imran Khan

lets talk abut j-11b

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## Akasa

Tipu7 said:


> PAF is not going for J10b ........ Chill........
> Who needs J10b when Su35S is coming ....



The J-10B and Su-35 occupy two diverging niches and have the potential to complement one another quite effectively.

There is a reason why the PLAAF is purchasing both J-10Bs and J-11Ds.



dy1022 said:


> We have 140KN+ WS-10B For J10B right now! Bye Bye AL-31F,X,N ...



I'd like to point out that there is no photographic evidence that suggests the new engines are indeed the WS-10G derivative. It could be a WS-10A, for all intents an purposes.

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## Beta-Fighter

janu.bravo said:


> ATLEAST NOT WASTING 15 YEARS FOR MRCA


we know we will get it one day but you?


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## kasper95

janu.bravo said:


> ATLEAST NOT WASTING 15 YEARS FOR MRCA


and in that 15 years do you know how many MKI's did we induct .the point is you havnt done anything to change the qualitative difference in favour of your country


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## Imran Khan

Beta-Fighter said:


> we know we will get it one day but you?


but 200 annouce and hard to get 36 yet . yes we will also got them do you think we will stuck on same fleet ?

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## Skywalker

Beta-Fighter said:


> 5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?


In those five years we inducted four new squadrons of jf17, two new squadrons of f16s, in the meantime your mmrca tender went down from 126 to mere 36 and your Tejas are still no where to be seen as operational, so Indian it's time to wash your wet dhoti and make sure this time you must rub it with modis face.

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## Viper0011.

Beta-Fighter said:


> 5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?



You people have wasted 70 years and hundreds of billions of dollars in destroying Pakistan.....what's the big deal if they wasted 10 years???? They are still standing strong and powerful and keeping you in your place.....

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## RazorMC

Is PAF planning to acquire J-10?


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## kasper95

Viper0011. said:


> You people have wasted 70 years and hundreds of billions of dollars in destroying Pakistan.....what's the big deal if they wasted 10 years???? They are still standing strong and powerful and keeping you in your place.....


And your views on Cuba and US,at least Pakistan has NW but Cuba has none.


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## Beta-Fighter

Viper0011. said:


> You people have wasted 70 years and hundreds of billions of dollars in destroying Pakistan.....what's the big deal if they wasted 10 years???? They are still standing strong and powerful and keeping you in your place.....


lol 30-40 years back we have destroyed you by broke you into 2 . If you give us another excuse to divide again, we dont loose that opportunity  dont worry ...

BTW now India spend for China and not for PAK, that's why your leader start ranting about Nuke every where and their why? Reason they know they cant stand against India in conventional war .



Skywalker said:


> In those five years we inducted four new squadrons of jf17, two new squadrons of f16s, in the meantime your mmrca tender went down from 126 to mere 36 and your Tejas are still no where to be seen as operational, so Indian it's time to wash your wet dhoti and make sure this time you must rub it with modis face.


what the use of those 4 sqd when u still have to depended on F-16 for bombing. In last 5 years India inducted 5 Su-30MKI new Sq.

lol , When India induct Tejas it can do all things like your F-16 can do , India dont pick half baked cakes.



Imran Khan said:


> but 200 annouce and hard to get 36 yet . yes we will also got them do you think we will stuck on same fleet ?


Time changes , Need changes , Number depend on threat perception, Now you can judge , what level of threat IAF can see ,so that it has to reduce the number.


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## Imran Khan

Beta-Fighter said:


> lol 30-40 years back we have destroyed you by broke you into 2 . If you give us another excuse to divide again, we dont loose that opportunity  dont worry ...
> 
> BTW now India spend for China and not for PAK, that's why your leader start ranting about Nuke every where and their why? Reason they know they cant stand against India in conventional war .
> 
> 
> what the use of those 4 sqd when u still have to depended on F-16 for bombing. In last 5 years India inducted 5 Su-30MKI new Sq.
> 
> lol , When India induct Tejas it can do all things like your F-16 can do , India dont pick half baked cakes.
> 
> 
> Time changes , Need changes , Number depend on threat perception, Now you can judge , what level of threat IAF can see ,so that it has to reduce the number.


every country is moving ahead IAF still far behind from enemy . because your enemy making home made 3 type of stealth and its near to induct while lines of j series is other pain

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## Muhammad Omar

Well the News that Pakistan is getting J-10 with Russian Engine was broke by Want China Times... Shit Source... 

i think PAF is waiting for J-10B


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## Beta-Fighter

Imran Khan said:


> every country is moving ahead IAF still far behind from enemy . because your enemy making home made 3 type of stealth and its near to induct while lines of j series is other pain



Stealth is now not more stealth anymore. They are now can be seen on Radars. If china developed this technology developed 20 years back then it would have been a problem , but today its not.


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## Super Falcon

No need J 10 is not our primary objective


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## Jf Thunder

Beta-Fighter said:


> lol 30-40 years back we have destroyed you by broke you into 2 . If you give us another excuse to divide again, we dont loose that opportunity  dont worry ...
> 
> BTW now India spend for China and not for PAK, that's why your leader start ranting about Nuke every where and their why? Reason they know they cant stand against India in conventional war .


OMG, thats so cool
but we are still here, and also a Nuclear Power...................damn


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## abdulbarijan

Beta-Fighter said:


> 5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?






Beta-Fighter said:


> lol 30-40 years back we have destroyed you by broke you into 2 . If you give us another excuse to divide again, we dont loose that opportunity  dont worry ...
> 
> BTW now India spend for China and not for PAK, that's why your leader start ranting about Nuke every where and their why? Reason they know they cant stand against India in conventional war .
> 
> 
> what the use of those 4 sqd when u still have to depended on F-16 for bombing. In last 5 years India inducted 5 Su-30MKI new Sq.
> 
> lol , When India induct Tejas it can do all things like your F-16 can do , India dont pick half baked cakes.
> 
> 
> Time changes , Need changes , Number depend on threat perception, Now you can judge , what level of threat IAF can see ,so that it has to reduce the number.



An amazing post indeed sir ...

-Your absolutely right ... we wasted 5 years over J-10 which was meant to be the reaction for MMRCA ... You know the deal you were yapping about since the last 8-10years which is effectively dead and a new deal for a third of the original numbers is in the works ... which too is going down the drain .... Lets not forget at one point AL-31 was not available to us and WS-10 was not considered as reliable ...* well today we can get the J-10 with AL-31 and turns out WS-10 has overcome the reliability issues it was facing ... 5 years wasted right .... *

-Good for you, you've gained soo much of an advantage ... lets make a list shall we ...

-Increased* SU-30 MKI's* (known for being a *maintenance headache with low availabilit*y, but to be fair a good fighter jet)

*-MMRCA* (original plan 126, original deal effectively dead ... with the Indian side negotiating for the* 1/3rd of the original MMRCA deal *and that too is going through problems)

*-LCA Tejas* ( the jet that supposedly *can do anything the F-16 can .. except ofcourse replace a jet from the late 50's in the Mig-21 *.. to the point where Hal was like .. we can give you another version in the MK1A of Tejas .. in 2018 if you want and IAF still waiting on MKII, supposedly post 2020 which is if everything goes according to plan as we have witnessed that it almost does every time ... )

*-PAK-FA* ( the jet that IAF originally planned to induct in numbers revolving around 200, then reports came out of a reduction citing a number near 120+ and then today the number has *gone down to 65 so less then a third as compared to the original plan*)

-Let's not even discuss the wet dreams of AMCA and company ...

So please continue with your amazing performance ... the folks on our side wish you continue with the amazing work ..

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## Beta-Fighter

Jf Thunder said:


> OMG, thats so cool
> but we are still here, and also a Nuclear Power...................damn


yep but your one Part is lost Kool ......you will be still their even you again divided into 2 again. Nuke dont cannt help much . from 2016 India deploying ABM's

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## Jf Thunder

Beta-Fighter said:


> yep but your one Part is lost Kool ......you will be still their even you again divided into 2 again. Nuke dont cannt help much . from 2016 India deploying ABM's


brag when you actually do something to us


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## abdulbarijan

alee92nawaz said:


> Is j10b deal still on ? Or just hoax ?
> 
> 
> 
> Is j10b deal still on ?????????



I'm not an insider .. so don't hold my word in high regard ... What I tell are my opinions based on the rumors around ... but to give you an answer ... the current deal which seems to be in the works is the SU-35 deal ... In the event that the deal doesn't go through ... we can go for the J-10B in that event ...


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## Beta-Fighter

abdulbarijan said:


> An amazing post indeed sir ...
> 
> -Your absolutely right ... we wasted 5 years over J-10 which was meant to be the reaction for MMRCA ... You know the deal you were yapping about since the last 8-10years which is effectively dead and a new deal for a third of the original numbers is in the works ... which too is going down the drain .... Lets not forget at one point AL-31 was not available to us and WS-10 was not considered as reliable ...* well today we can get the J-10 with AL-31 and turns out WS-10 has overcome the reliability issues it was facing ... 5 years wasted right .... *



Wasted means , their is not such deal at all people is flying with their imagination. Today also you dont have any plan for J-10 with Al-31 , because Russian are giving more engine for you / spare parts.



abdulbarijan said:


> -Good for you, you've gained soo much of an advantage ... lets make a list shall we ...
> 
> -Increased* SU-30 MKI's* (known for being a *maintenance headache with low availabilit*y, but to be fair a good fighter jet)


IAF working on the availability part already.



abdulbarijan said:


> *-MMRCA* (original plan 126, original deal effectively dead ... with the Indian side negotiating for the* 1/3rd of the original MMRCA deal *and that too is going through problems)



Well its no Point of Inducting 2 different type of plane in same time.
India plan changes as per time and need

by 2018-19 when MMRCA is completed , then Russian 5th gen started inducting or making and SU30- to Super Su-30 will start.

Therefore no use of having large number of planes. when you are going to have 5th gen why invest more then 4.5 gen MMRCA.



abdulbarijan said:


> *-LCA Tejas* ( the jet that supposedly *can do anything the F-16 can .. except ofcourse replace a jet from the late 50's in the Mig-21 *.. to the point where Hal was like .. we can give you another version in the MK1A of Tejas .. in 2018 if you want and IAF still waiting on MKII, supposedly post 2020 which is if everything goes according to plan as we have witnessed that it almost does every time ... )


I cannot even explain you the AC technology. The IAF reluctance is due to ego issues nothing else. Indian Aero space technology is maturing now.

In 2018 , IAF SU-30MKI will be started upgraded to Super SU-30MKI.



abdulbarijan said:


> *-PAK-FA* ( the jet that IAF originally planned to induct in numbers revolving around 200, then reports came out of a reduction citing a number near 120+ and then today the number has *gone down to 65 so less then a third as compared to the original plan*)
> 
> -Let's not even discuss the wet dreams of AMCA and company ...
> 
> So please continue with your amazing performance ... the folks on our side wish you continue with the amazing work ..



Did you know why number came down? India want to build its own PAK-FA ver. , but since it take more then 3-4 years to develop that version, India will buy only 65 numbers of those version which is used by Russian AF.

India build and modify plane as per its needs . India want Twin Seat PAK-FA like SU-30MKI. Indian SU-30MKI was Twin Seat while at that time Russian SU-30 is single Seat. Twin seat was developed for India only. 


incomplete knowledge is always dangerous.



Jf Thunder said:


> brag when you actually do something to us


didnt we done in 71?


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## xyxmt

Beta-Fighter said:


> 5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?



how long Rafael deal has been going on, 15 years?
for last 15 years I hear a news once a week where India is going to sign a defense deal worth 25000 caror, India is making TEJAS, TEJAS cancelled, now Stealth, now it will be ultra sonic, Arjun will fly if needed.


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## Jf Thunder

Beta-Fighter said:


> didnt we done in 71?


its 45 year old, do something new


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## Beta-Fighter

Jf Thunder said:


> its 45 year old, do something new


Removed you from kargil and destroyed your dreams of taking Siachin ..... 15 years back..... how much humiliation u more want.


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## Salza

Tipu7 said:


> PAF is not going for J10b ........ Chill........
> *Who needs J10b when Su35S is coming* ....



Stop commenting like an immature prick when you are not 100% sure that Su35s are really coming.

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## Beta-Fighter

xyxmt said:


> how long Rafael deal has been going on, 15 years?
> for last 15 years I hear a news once a week where India is going to sign a defense deal worth 25000 caror, India is making TEJAS, TEJAS cancelled, now Stealth, now it will be ultra sonic, Arjun will fly if needed.


Nope , these are real deal while your Chinese JXX was imaginations of PDF nothing else.
India has* 224+ Su 30 MKI ,* *50 Mirages and 66 Mig-29 *= * 340* upgraded planes. India is in no need of panic state unlike PAK.

India changes plan and modify plane as per time and need. and things changes plane changes and need changes. tejas is inducting as per plan with AESA Radar.


oh did i forget to mentioned , *137 Jag and 85 MIG 27 -* * 200 More dual engine planes*.... Opps ....

500 + planes .... this is more then entire PAF planes.....


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## abdulbarijan

Beta-Fighter said:


> Wasted means , their is not such deal at all people is flying with their imagination. Today also you dont have any plan for J-10 with Al-31 , because Russian are giving more engine for you / spare parts.
> 
> 
> IAF working on the availability part already.
> 
> 
> 
> Well its no Point of Inducting 2 different type of plane in same time.
> India plan changes as per time and need
> 
> by 2018-19 when MMRCA is completed , then Russian 5th gen started inducting or making and SU30- to Super Su-30 will start.
> 
> Therefore no use of having large number of planes. when you are going to have 5th gen why invest more then 4.5 gen MMRCA.
> 
> 
> I cannot even explain you the AC technology. The IAF reluctance is due to ego issues nothing else. Indian Aero space technology is maturing now.
> 
> In 2018 , IAF SU-30MKI will be started upgraded to Super SU-30MKI.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know why number came down? India want to build its own PAK-FA ver. , but since it take more then 3-4 years to develop that version, India will buy only 65 numbers of those version which is used by Russian AF.
> 
> India build and modify plane as per its needs . India want Twin Seat PAK-FA like SU-30MKI. Indian SU-30MKI was Twin Seat while at that time Russian SU-30 is single Seat. Twin seat was developed for India only.
> 
> 
> incomplete knowledge is always dangerous.
> 
> 
> didnt we done in 71?



-Who told you there is no deal for the _*J-10B ... the option is actually still available *_...

-IAF was working on that crash record too ... IAF still sits at the top in that one .. but then again .. its "still working" aint it ..

-Except plans were already out for SU-30 MKI upgrade, PAK-FA and MMRCA ... but all of a sudden IAF remembered like "you know whattttt ... thiiiis doooesss nottt makee sensee" ... ofcourse in the process you pi$$ed the french enough for them to start rumors of a possible revival of the original JFT deal .. and Russia's DFM to go ahead and talk about a possible deal of SU-35 ..

-_Then your point is "you cannot explain AC technology to me" -- the issues are "ego based" which is the reason IAF is not replacing its fleet of air frames that were originally designed/conceived in the 50's with a jet that can do anything the -16's can .. good luck is all I can say to you on this._.

-IAF super Sukhoi upgrade ... good for you ... except then again look at the track record of the deals IAF is doing .. MMRCA, PAK-FA etc. Whats to say that the upgrade won't be delayed by the Russians this time, whom you guys screwed out of the MMRCA and totally shocked by reducing a deal to 3 times its original size in PAK-FA ... _*do you still believe you dictate the terms simply because you have money ... your dependent on them, not the other way around when it comes to Super sukhois ...*_

-Oh yes after saying that okay, we'll be buying 200 , your going to reduce it to 65 on the premise of we want dual seaters .. *you do remember that the original deal in 2010 of 200 included 60 something fgfa's( dual seaters) while the rest were the single seater PAK-Fa's (single seaters) ...so your absolutely right ... incomplete knowledge is dangerous ... thank you for volunteering to prove that once again ...*

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## xyxmt

Beta-Fighter said:


> Nope , these are real deal while your Chinese JXX was imaginations of PDF nothing else.
> India has* 224+ Su 30 MKI ,* *50 Mirages and 66 Mig-29 *= * 340* upgraded planes. India is in no need of panic state unlike PAK.
> 
> India changes plan and modify plane as per time and need. and things changes plane changes and need changes. tejas is inducting as per plan with AESA Radar.
> 
> 
> oh did i forget to mentioned , *137 Jag and 85 MIG 27 -* * 200 More dual engine planes*.... Opps ....
> 
> 500 + planes .... this is more then entire PAF planes.....



so much technical advantage, when is IAF coming for precision strikes then?
that talk is going on for 15 years too, like Rafael and 25000 carors

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## abdulbarijan

Beta-Fighter said:


> Nope , these are real deal while your Chinese JXX was imaginations of PDF nothing else.
> India has* 224+ Su 30 MKI ,* *50 Mirages and 66 Mig-29 *= * 340* upgraded planes. India is in no need of panic state unlike PAK.
> 
> India changes plan and modify plane as per time and need. and things changes plane changes and need changes. tejas is inducting as per plan with AESA Radar.
> 
> 
> oh did i forget to mentioned , *137 Jag and 85 MIG 27 -* * 200 More dual engine planes*.... Opps ....
> 
> 500 + planes .... this is more then entire PAF planes.....



Except IAF also has to watch for PLAAF ... remember the MMRCA .. the claims of "ohh we're going to counter China with 126 aircrafts --- IAF Jindabaad "

*Do you even know that the number of 4/4+ generation fighters alone that the PLAAF operates is nearly the size of the entire IAF* .. and *then you have to worry about that little airforce that whooped you even when you had 3:1 numerical advantage, plus technological advantage at your side..*. _to the point where your politicians were talking about Surgical strikes ... yet your IAF got scared from those "chinese copies" that you love to belittle _... so carry on ... "explaining AC technology to us" .... its frankly getting quite entertaining ...

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## Jf Thunder

Beta-Fighter said:


> Removed you from kargil and destroyed your dreams of taking Siachin ..... 15 years back..... how much humiliation u more want.


well lets see, Kargil is the same as before, and you just occupied a barren unoccupied wasteland, bravo
meanwhile 68 years before, we broke India to make the Islamic Republic of Pakistan


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## Beta-Fighter

Jf Thunder said:


> well lets see, Kargil is the same as before, and you just occupied a barren unoccupied wasteland, bravo
> meanwhile 68 years before, we broke India to make the Islamic Republic of Pakistan


well In kargil you came with a dream and we broke that dream.

You did not broke , we given you land and now see where you stand and where we stand in ranking.

Yes we given you land , because we wanted to developed, look us and then you , where you stand economically and technology, if you was with us , then we are left behind like u. Thankyou we separated you.



xyxmt said:


> so much technical advantage, when is IAF coming for precision strikes then?
> that talk is going on for 15 years too, like Rafael and 25000 carors



IAF all current inventory has precision strikes systems. Seen precision strike in kargil ??

yes , talk are going on from last April 2011 India shortlisted the plane. in 2015 we are signing.


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## Jf Thunder

Beta-Fighter said:


> well In kargil you came with a dream and we broke that dream.
> 
> Yes we given you land , because we wanted to developed, look us and then you , where you stand economically and technology, if you was with us , then we are left behind like u. Thankyou we separated you.


you gave us nothing, we took it, with our own sweat and blood, dont say it like it was your favor.
well in 1965 you also came with a dream, and ran back crying, so we are even.
i dont see a difference between us, we have arms, we are developed, and most of all we have toilets

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## Beta-Fighter

abdulbarijan said:


> Except IAF also has to watch for PLAAF ... remember the MMRCA .. the claims of "ohh we're going to counter China with 126 aircrafts --- IAF Jindabaad "
> 
> *Do you even know that the number of 4/4+ generation fighters alone that the PLAAF operates is nearly the size of the entire IAF* .. and *then you have to worry about that little airforce that whooped you even when you had 3:1 numerical advantage, plus technological advantage at your side..*. _to the point where your politicians were talking about Surgical strikes ... yet your IAF got scared from those "chinese copies" that you love to belittle _... so carry on ... "explaining AC technology to us" .... its frankly getting quite entertaining ...


Lol , if you dont know anything about Plane and its technology , so its better do not comment.

PLAAF planes if cross over Himalayas its only one way right , high Altitude decrease load and performance of plane. So IAF least worried about it as of now. ( IAF building now 2 front war capacity) . since you don't know anything about Airplane technology you better not talk. 
*
Oh really ... China has around 600 Planes +120 Bombers Vs India has 340Planes + 220 bombers* ( out of that 300 planes flies of China made engines which is reliability issues and High MTBF. 

Mr Cheerleader , Do i tell you about Russian or US planes no against China? get your numbers correct ....

You need proper educations. you cant even know the numbers.....



Jf Thunder said:


> you gave us nothing, we took it, with our own sweat and blood, dont say it like it was your favor.
> well in 1965 you also came with a dream, and ran back crying, so we are even.
> i dont see a difference between us, we have arms, we are developed, and most of all we have toilets


lol , you started 65 and ended up having nothing , you dream of having Kashmir flopped many times. I feel petty on your when you even dont know about your own country.

Most happening point when your new paper declare victory and you people distributing sweets at same time your gen signing surrender papers. This is the level of awareness u have .


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## Tipu7

Salman Zahidi said:


> Stop commenting like an immature prick when you are not 100% sure that Su35s are really coming.


I was just a jolly comment in light mood.
I don't know why it set your a** on fire......

@Beta-Fighter 

Dear if you have some thing logical to say then say.
Better avoid such things which we already know.
We know very well how mighty IAF is and what are it's capabilities.

Thank you........


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## Beta-Fighter

abdulbarijan said:


> -Who told you there is no deal for the _*J-10B ... the option is actually still available *_...


you don't have this option. If you had this option , your are saying to Chinese your plane is not good , Russian plnaes are better then yours. lol this is called height of stupidity.





abdulbarijan said:


> -
> -IAF was working on that crash record too ... IAF still sits at the top in that one .. but then again .. its "still working" aint it ..



Every given hour 5-6 IAF plane in the sky , they keep on practicing and training and designing new tactics. Unlike PAF , IAF has no shortages of fuels. 

take high risk and sometimes accident happens due to this. let tell u one thing , ALL IAF planes have engine / S/w modification which can switching off and restart the engine in flight , nor US / EU Plane have this kind of facility. 



abdulbarijan said:


> -
> -Except plans were already out for SU-30 MKI upgrade, PAK-FA and MMRCA ... but all of a sudden IAF remembered like "you know whattttt ... thiiiis doooesss nottt makee sensee" ... ofcourse in the process you pi$$ed the french enough for them to start rumors of a possible revival of the original JFT deal .. and Russia's DFM to go ahead and talk about a possible deal of SU-35 ..


Lol , the Russian DFM said something you interpreted something , PAK ask Russian about SU and Russian DFM said yes talk is held and you people started flying your horses.

you also asked for SU27, Russian denied after talking with you, History repeated itself again.

Super SU-30MKI already conceived 3 -4 yrs back.





abdulbarijan said:


> -
> -_Then your point is "you cannot explain AC technology to me" -- the issues are "ego based" which is the reason IAF is not replacing its fleet of air frames that were originally designed/conceived in the 50's with a jet that can do anything the -16's can .. good luck is all I can say to you on this._.



IAF have enough 4.5 gen plane in its inventory. they are not in Panic mode.



abdulbarijan said:


> -
> -IAF super Sukhoi upgrade ... good for you ... except then again look at the track record of the deals IAF is doing .. MMRCA, PAK-FA etc. Whats to say that the upgrade won't be delayed by the Russians this time, whom you guys screwed out of the MMRCA and totally shocked by reducing a deal to 3 times its original size in PAK-FA ... _*do you still believe you dictate the terms simply because you have money ... your dependent on them, not the other way around when it comes to Super sukhois ... *_


_*
*_
lol MIG-29 is already upgraded , SU-30 MKI will be upgraded in India and moreover a Super Su is ready done in few planes.



abdulbarijan said:


> -
> -Oh yes after saying that okay, we'll be buying 200 , your going to reduce it to 65 on the premise of we want dual seaters .. *you do remember that the original deal in 2010 of 200 included 60 something fgfa's( dual seaters) while the rest were the single seater PAK-Fa's (single seaters) ...so your absolutely right ... incomplete knowledge is dangerous ... thank you for volunteering to prove that once again ...*



yes, but did you know IAF going to create different unit of UAV's and also Indian medium plane in an around 2025.

Well you cant see beyond today where IAF seeing beyond 2020 and 2025.

As for your Info , MIG21 Design is the best design of AF till today. MIG-21 is the plane which is responsible to kill you plane in border, your 50 KM distance karachi Radar didnt picked up plane.


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## Imran Khan

ladies control your horses

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## Mrc

Ok lets declare india a super power officially....

And than may be we can have a discussion around other topics as well on this forum...

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## alee92nawaz

Beta-Fighter said:


> Nope , these are real deal while your Chinese JXX was imaginations of PDF nothing else.
> India has* 224+ Su 30 MKI ,* *50 Mirages and 66 Mig-29 *= * 340* upgraded planes. India is in no need of panic state unlike PAK.
> 
> India changes plan and modify plane as per time and need. and things changes plane changes and need changes. tejas is inducting as per plan with AESA Radar.
> 
> 
> oh did i forget to mentioned , *137 Jag and 85 MIG 27 -* * 200 More dual engine planes*.... Opps ....
> 
> 500 + planes .... this is more then entire PAF planes.....


Arjun tank under development since stone ......
Tejas will be used in staaar wars...

After fun facts

Your current airforce is reduced to 25 squadrons...
14 of which mig 27 and flying coffins

55 percent mki can only fly due to engine problems and what not...

I mean india knows its okat other wise 71 is enough to remember its back stabbing habbit...

 QUOTE

="Jf Thunder, post: 7683445, member: 151954"]well lets see, Kargil is the same as before, and you just occupied a barren unoccupied wasteland, bravo
meanwhile 68 years before, we broke India to make the Islamic Republic of Pakistan[ QUOTE

]
Lol kargil shows what a few hundred Pakistani soldiers n pathans can do to you guys who captured siachen same way...
Its Pakistani mistake that they didn't go for open war other wise results could have been different


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## RoadRunner401

kasper95 said:


> and in that 15 years do you know how many MKI's did we induct .the point is you haven't done anything, to change the qualitative difference in favor of your country



Say Hello to my Little friend JF-17






We can produce as many as we want and when we want.


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## alee92nawaz

Beta-Fighter said:


> you don't have this option. If you had this option , your are saying to Chinese your plane is not good , Russian plnaes are better then yours. lol this is called height of stupidity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every given hour 5-6 IAF plane in the sky , they keep on practicing and training and designing new tactics. Unlike PAF , IAF has no shortages of fuels.
> 
> take high risk and sometimes accident happens due to this. let tell u one thing , ALL IAF planes have engine / S/w modification which can switching off and restart the engine in flight , nor US / EU Plane have this kind of facility.
> 
> 
> Lol , the Russian DFM said something you interpreted something , PAK ask Russian about SU and Russian DFM said yes talk is held and you people started flying your horses.
> 
> you also asked for SU27, Russian denied after talking with you, History repeated itself again.
> 
> Super SU-30MKI already conceived 3 -4 yrs back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IAF have enough 4.5 gen plane in its inventory. they are not in Panic mode.
> 
> _*
> *_
> lol MIG-29 is already upgraded , SU-30 MKI will be upgraded in India and moreover a Super Su is ready done in few planes.
> 
> 
> 
> yes, but did you know IAF going to create different unit of UAV's and also Indian medium plane in an around 2025.
> 
> Well you cant see beyond today where IAF seeing beyond 2020 and 2025.
> 
> As for your Info , MIG21 Design is the best design of AF till today. MIG-21 is the plane which is responsible to kill you plane in border, your 50 KM distance karachi Radar didnt picked up plane.


Enjoy wet dreams....

You can't even think of any sort of attack otherwise your cuntry could have gone for it....


----------



## abdulbarijan

Beta-Fighter said:


> Lol , if you dont know anything about Plane and its technology , so its better do not comment.
> 
> PLAAF planes if cross over Himalayas its only one way right , high Altitude decrease load and performance of plane. So IAF least worried about it as of now. ( IAF building now 2 front war capacity) . since you don't know anything about Airplane technology you better not talk.
> *
> Oh really ... China has around 600 Planes +120 Bombers Vs India has 340Planes + 220 bombers* ( out of that 300 planes flies of China made engines which is reliability issues and High MTBF.
> 
> Mr Cheerleader , Do i tell you about Russian or US planes no against China? get your numbers correct ....
> 
> You need proper educations. you cant even know the numbers.....
> 
> 
> lol , you started 65 and ended up having nothing , you dream of having Kashmir flopped many times. I feel petty on your when you even dont know about your own country.
> 
> Most happening point when your new paper declare victory and you people distributing sweets at same time your gen signing surrender papers. This is the level of awareness u have .



 -- I'm sorry sir, Im very poor with numbers ... what can I say .. your complete knowledge of aircrafts and technology had me so intimidated that I forgot basic maths ... so let me just recount to be sure ..

_*IAF + IN operates *230 odd SU-30's + 50 odd M2K's +60 odd Mig-29's+30 Odd Mig-29 K's for IN + 125 Bisons+85 Mig-23's + 139 Jaguars+150 Mig-27's+13 Harriers* for a Grand total of 882 combat aircrafts ...*_

_*As for PLAAF/PLAN -- *Lets start with SU-27's total of 70+ around 100 SU-30 MKK's + 250 J-11's + 260+ J-10's+240 JH-7's* which brings a grand total of around 900+ 4 Generation aircrafts alone .... and we're not even counting J-15's/J-11D's/J-10B's/J-16/15's in this equation since they are the new revelations ... *and ofcourse we're not talking about the pre- 4th generation aircrafts of the PLAAF in J-7/J-8/Q-5 etc. _

_So thank you for pointing out that my math was flawed ... *I should not have said that the PLAAF's 4/4+ gen assets equate that of the entire combat fleet of the IAF ... Infact I should've stated that the 4/4+ generation assets of the PLAAF/PLAN exceed that of IAF/IN without even counting a few types of 4+ generation aircrafts* ... _

and lastly, your argument of high altitudes carry as much weight and coherence as me saying "Pilot flying high .. getting sweaty because he is closer to sun .... less performance ... therefore .. the XYZ airforce is least worried about the ABC airforce" ... 




Beta-Fighter said:


> you don't have this option. If you had this option , your are saying to Chinese your plane is not good , Russian plnaes are better then yours. lol this is called height of stupidity.
> 
> Every given hour 5-6 IAF plane in the sky , they keep on practicing and training and designing new tactics. Unlike PAF , IAF has no shortages of fuels.
> 
> take high risk and sometimes accident happens due to this. let tell u one thing , ALL IAF planes have engine / S/w modification which can switching off and restart the engine in flight , nor US / EU Plane have this kind of facility.
> 
> Lol , the Russian DFM said something you interpreted something , PAK ask Russian about SU and Russian DFM said yes talk is held and you people started flying your horses.
> 
> you also asked for SU27, Russian denied after talking with you, History repeated itself again.
> 
> Super SU-30MKI already conceived 3 -4 yrs back.
> 
> 
> IAF have enough 4.5 gen plane in its inventory. they are not in Panic mode.
> 
> lol MIG-29 is already upgraded , SU-30 MKI will be upgraded in India and moreover a Super Su is ready done in few planes.
> 
> yes, but did you know IAF going to create different unit of UAV's and also Indian medium plane in an around 2025.
> 
> Well you cant see beyond today where IAF seeing beyond 2020 and 2025.
> 
> As for your Info , MIG21 Design is the best design of AF till today. MIG-21 is the plane which is responsible to kill you plane in border, your 50 KM distance karachi Radar didnt picked up plane.



-Wow sir, Im just in awe of your "knowledge" and grip on the matters of defense ... I mean ... After all ,in your world, negotiating for a Russian jet for PAF, while it has not rejected the Chinese option ... but mere initial talks for SU-35 are enough to suggest that the J-10 was rejected .... and lets not discount the fact that contingencies are always in place .. But then again sir... you are absolutely right ... because you know the PAF more then all of us puny minded people..

-*Yes the great IAF keeps on designing tactics etc. unlike the puny little PAF ... After all, you don't get the worst crash record without practicing and practicing .. *

-ohh so IAF fighters have engines ... tell us more sir .. enlighten us .. of what else the IAF fighters have ... 

-Ofcourse sir, we Pakistanis lack common comprehension, _*ofcourse the Russian DFM was talking about how the Russians were in talks for MI-35 and SU-35 to India ... He just mistakened one country for another... happens sometimes ...right sir ?? *_

- and when was that SU-27 episode again .. Last I remember _*somebody tried to butt in when Russians were agreeing to provide us with RD-93 ... which is why the entire JF-17 fleet doesn't operate RD-93's .. or does it ... double checked .. it does! *_

-Already "conceived" -- the MMRCA was conceived in the early 2000's ... how did that one go ... or the PAk-FA deal or the LCA .. the list goes on ... 

IAF is not in panic mode .. which is why continuous reports are getting published on the diminishing strength of the IAF .. as far as UAV goes, we have an armed UAV right NOW! ... and please continue with your forward thinking .. really helps our cause ...

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## Jf Thunder

Beta-Fighter said:


> lol , you started 65 and ended up having nothing , you dream of having Kashmir flopped many times. I feel petty on your when you even dont know about your own country.
> 
> *Most happening point when your new paper declare victory and you people distributing sweets at same time your gen signing surrender papers. This is the level of awareness u have .*


were you a witness then?

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## Jf Thunder

Beta-Fighter said:


> Lol , if you dont know anything about Plane and its technology , so its better do not comment.
> 
> PLAAF planes if cross over Himalayas its only one way right , high Altitude decrease load and performance of plane. So IAF least worried about it as of now. ( IAF building now 2 front war capacity) . since you don't know anything about Airplane technology you better not talk.
> *
> Oh really ... China has around 600 Planes +120 Bombers Vs India has 340Planes + 220 bombers* ( out of that 300 planes flies of China made engines which is reliability issues and High MTBF.
> 
> Mr Cheerleader , Do i tell you about Russian or US planes no against China? get your numbers correct ....
> 
> You need proper educations. you cant even know the numbers.....
> 
> 
> lol , you started 65 and ended up having nothing , you dream of having Kashmir flopped many times. I feel petty on your when you even dont know about your own country.
> 
> *Most happening point when your new paper declare victory and you people distributing sweets at same time your gen signing surrender papers. This is the level of awareness u have .*


and you were a witness to that?



Beta-Fighter said:


> Lol , if you dont know anything about Plane and its technology , so its better do not comment.
> 
> PLAAF planes if cross over Himalayas its only one way right , high Altitude decrease load and performance of plane. So IAF least worried about it as of now. ( IAF building now 2 front war capacity) . since you don't know anything about Airplane technology you better not talk.
> *
> Oh really ... China has around 600 Planes +120 Bombers Vs India has 340Planes + 220 bombers* ( out of that 300 planes flies of China made engines which is reliability issues and High MTBF.
> 
> Mr Cheerleader , Do i tell you about Russian or US planes no against China? get your numbers correct ....
> 
> You need proper educations. you cant even know the numbers.....
> 
> 
> lol , you started 65 and ended up having nothing , you dream of having Kashmir flopped many times. I feel petty on your when you even dont know about your own country.
> 
> *Most happening point when your new paper declare victory and you people distributing sweets at same time your gen signing surrender papers. This is the level of awareness u have .*


and you were a witness to that?


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## pigtaker

dy1022 said:


> We have 140KN+ WS-10B For J10B right now! Bye Bye AL-31F,X,N ...


you moronic imbecile what did you want to show off in this thread? didn't you notice no chinese posters participate in this kind of discussion? those pakistans had higher bar for their equipment, best from west, or at least from russian.


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## unleashed

janu.bravo said:


> ATLEAST NOT WASTING 15 YEARS FOR MRCA


and 40 years for TEJA bhai..


----------



## Thunder.Storm

Viper0011. said:


> You people have wasted 70 years and hundreds of billions of dollars in destroying Pakistan.....what's the big deal if they wasted 10 years???? They are still standing strong and powerful and keeping you in your place.....


that's very logical and good comment.

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## HttpError

Viper0011. said:


> You people have wasted 70 years and hundreds of billions of dollars in destroying Pakistan.....what's the big deal if they wasted 10 years???? They are still standing strong and powerful and keeping you in your place.....



We will always keep India in its place. The real Place where they belong.

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## Pomegranate

Beta-Fighter said:


> 5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?


while you can play with tejas .......


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## nadeemkhan110

Beta-Fighter said:


> lol 30-40 years back we have destroyed you by broke you into 2 . If you give us another excuse to divide again, we dont loose that opportunity  dont worry ...
> 
> BTW now India spend for China and not for PAK, that's why your leader start ranting about Nuke every where and their why? Reason they know they cant stand against India in conventional war .


* Now there is no chance for civil war in our country in 1971 there was a civil war in EAST PAKISTAN, 
World knows that indian army is worlds most coward army,*
*in 1999 some one Pakistani paramilitary forces OCCUPAIED Whole KARGIL FROM INDIAN COWARD ARMY.*
*As per Wikipedia during 1965 war 8,200 Indian soldiers killed 113 Indian aircraft destroyed 500 indian tanks captured or destroyed 2575 km2 territory lost by India and then INDIA ASK UN TO SAVE US OTHER WISE PAK ARMY WILL BE IN DELHI*

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## ChennaiDude

Jf Thunder said:


> well lets see, Kargil is the same as before, and you just occupied a barren unoccupied wasteland, bravo
> meanwhile 68 years before, we broke India to make the Islamic Republic of Pakistan


Small Correction..(Disclaimer: I might be wrong)......Pakistan was named "Islamic republic of Pakistan" only in 1956...Not in 1947.


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## Salza

Tipu7 said:


> I was just a jolly comment in light mood.
> I don't know why it set your a** on fire......



No you sounded like an arrogant b*tch.


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## Shaheen786

Beta-Fighter said:


> 5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?


and india got all the 200 su 30 s right away or they took them 4 to 5 years plese correct us also 72 fighters still pending so why are you taunting pak for wait when you dont have the technology your self than you have to wait thats how deal goes you india invested in pakfa did they got the jets now no simply they have to wait same is the case with pakistan


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## maxpayne

ChennaiDude said:


> Small Correction..(Disclaimer: I might be wrong)......Pakistan was named "Islamic republic of Pakistan" only in 1956...Not in 1947.


Another correction that 1956 was the first constitution so naturally it was for the first time it changed its name. Pakistan was about to be an Islamic state on 1940 and in 1948 after objective resolution.

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## Bratva

Muhammad Omar said:


> Well the News that Pakistan is getting J-10 with Russian Engine was broke by Want China Times... Shit Source...
> 
> i think PAF is waiting for J-10B



More like J-10 C now. Due to AESA radar and PL-10 Integration with it

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## zebra7

If J10C is comming with chinese engine, Su 35s is comming pissing indians and work on aesa and stealth Jf17 is comming, J31 is comming, more MLU F-16 is comming, and talk of Mirrage 2009 from UAE is also there what else is comming and does it fills all the requirement of PAF guys.


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## nadeemkhan110

Bratva said:


> More like J-10 C now. Due to AESA radar and PL-10 Integration with it


 I think JF-17 is With AESA radar and PL-10 and PL-12 integration so we don't need j-10 we are HAPPY WITH JF-17



zebra7 said:


> If J10C is comming with chinese engine, Su 35s is comming pissing indians and work on aesa and stealth Jf17 is comming, J31 is comming, more MLU F-16 is comming, and talk of Mirrage 2009 from UAE is also there what else is comming and does it fills all the requirement of PAF guys.


 BACHA dar gaya

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## Johny D

Pakistan doesn't need Chinese birds any more..they are targeting S-35 and perhaps PakFA after that ..so Chinese can find buyers for their toys in some African countries (that too free of cost fpr mineral mining rights!), I doubt even Chinese air force would buy them after hearing Pakistan is getting S-35 and PakFA! ...ROFL


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## Quwa

JD_In said:


> Pakistan doesn't need Chinese birds any more..they are targeting S-35 and perhaps PakFA after that ..so Chinese can find buyers for their toys in some African countries (that too free of cost fpr mineral mining rights!), I doubt even Chinese air force would buy them after hearing Pakistan is getting S-35 and PakFA! ...ROFL


The only 5th gen platform PAF reportedly expressed interest in was J-31, not PAK-FA.


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## kshaib

*Our P...... are all trained of J10 and J11. we already some J10 plane long time, China did not tells or shows, what he is giving to our armed forces, much of time, we depend on China, not on Americans, they are double, say something else, do some thing else, they are trust worthy.*

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## zebra7

nadeemkhan110 said:


> I think JF-17 is With AESA radar and PL-10 and PL-12 integration so we don't need j-10 we are HAPPY WITH JF-17
> 
> 
> BACHA dar gaya


Why not J31, J20, Pak-fa, stealth Jf17 and may be f35 all 5 5th gen fighter in paf. It will be terrible to iaf



Mohammad Fazil Khan Lodhi said:


> *Our P...... are all trained of J10 and J11. we already some J10 plane long time, China did not tells or shows, what he is giving to our armed forces, much of time, we depend on China, not on Americans, they are double, say something else, do some thing else, they are trust worthy.*


Great



JD_In said:


> Pakistan doesn't need Chinese birds any more..they are targeting S-35 and perhaps PakFA after that ..so Chinese can find buyers for their toys in some African countries (that too free of cost fpr mineral mining rights!), I doubt even Chinese air force would buy them after hearing Pakistan is getting S-35 and PakFA! ...ROFL


May be you are right because chinese is more interested in ibris-e and engine tech. and not in Su35 and if pakistan could provide that where is any need to buy when the chinese have such great reverse engineering tech. Engine and Radar are the two field where chinese are lagging with the russian.


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## xyxmt

Beta-Fighter said:


> IAF all current inventory has precision strikes systems. *Seen precision strike in kargil *??
> .



yes we have, only when opponent is armed with guns only
only when you knew there wont be anyone to challenge.
kabhi border ki is taraf bhi aao na ya paney area main he precision strikes kertey raho gye


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## ziaulislam

JD_In said:


> Pakistan doesn't need Chinese birds any more..they are targeting S-35 and perhaps PakFA after that ..so Chinese can find buyers for their toys in some African countries (that too free of cost fpr mineral mining rights!), I doubt even Chinese air force would buy them after hearing Pakistan is getting S-35 and PakFA! ...ROFL


nope. likley pakistan is targetting none. 
pakistan will only buy su-35 if the conditions are extremly favourable


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## Ahmad Masood

Beta-Fighter said:


> BTW now India spend for China and not for PAK, that's why your leader start ranting about Nuke every where and their why? Reason they know they cant stand against India in conventional war .



India must also spend money on making asylums to accommodate lunatics like you. First, people like you join PDF and then claim Pakistan is no match to India. You wouldn't have joined *'Pakistan Defence Forum' *if you didn't care about us. I know its off topic but I cant stand your double standards. Morons.

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## Skywalker

Beta-Fighter said:


> lol 30-40 years back we have destroyed you by broke you into 2 . If you give us another excuse to divide again, we dont loose that opportunity  dont worry ...
> 
> BTW now India spend for China and not for PAK, that's why your leader start ranting about Nuke every where and their why? Reason they know they cant stand against India in conventional war .
> 
> 
> what the use of those 4 sqd when u still have to depended on F-16 for bombing. In last 5 years India inducted 5 Su-30MKI new Sq.
> 
> lol , When India induct Tejas it can do all things like your F-16 can do , India dont pick half baked cakes.
> 
> 
> Time changes , Need changes , Number depend on threat perception, Now you can judge , what level of threat IAF can see ,so that it has to reduce the number.


Well try crossing the border with your Souter douper su 30 and we will tell you which one will be defending the skies. I can only expect an idiot Indian to compare a non operational teja with a war proven machine like f16 which can rip apart anything in your inventory.


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## zebra7

Skywalker said:


> Well try crossing the border with your Souter douper su 30 and we will tell you which one will be defending the skies. I can only expect an idiot Indian to compare a non operational teja with a war proven machine like f16 which can rip apart anything in your inventory.


Great first you are not in any position to challenge a country and the country you are challenging don't think that your challenging voice is a single bit of importance to make the decision to cross the border. 

Second you are not the new member who should be told that its Hal Tejas and not Teja.

Third care to explain what makes you think PAF can rip apart anything in Indian inventory.


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## abdulbarijan

zebra7 said:


> Great first you are not in any position to challenge a country and the country you are challenging don't think that your challenging voice is a single bit of importance to make the decision to cross the border.
> 
> Second you are not the new member who should be told that its Hal Tejas and not Teja.
> 
> Third care to explain what makes you think PAF can rip apart anything in Indian inventory.



Care to explain why you care so much for the opinion of the citizen of a country which according to your own opinion cant even challenge you .. ..

Secondly_* why so angry over "teja" mate ... look at it this way .. if it doesn't become part of your airforce ... it is catchy enough to be the name of the next item number in one of your movies*_ ... so Chill!

Lastly ... the onus is on you to prove that we can't do anything .. since ofcourse you disagree with what @Skywalker said .. _*The mere fact that the big bad IAF with its Star wars Sukhoi MKI ran the other way with its tail between its legs ... when the politicians were calling for surgical strikes ... should be an eye opener for you guys who think that the IAF can easily tear apart the PAF ...*_

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## zebra7

abdulbarijan said:


> Care to explain why you care so much for the opinion of the citizen of a country which according to your own opinion cant even challenge you .. ..
> 
> Secondly_* why so angry over "teja" mate ... look at it this way .. if it doesn't become part of your airforce ... it is catchy enough to be the name of the next item number in one of your movies*_ ... so Chill!
> 
> Lastly ... the onus is on you to prove that we can't do anything .. since ofcourse you disagree with what @Skywalker said .. _*The mere fact that the big bad IAF with its Star wars Sukhoi MKI ran the other way with its tail between its legs ... when the politicians were calling for surgical strikes ... should be an eye opener for you guys who think that the IAF can easily tear apart the PAF ...*_


Since you have decided to answer on behalf of someone why don't you give some visionary explanation and insight story update on that.


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## abdulbarijan

zebra7 said:


> Since you have decided to answer on behalf of someone why don't you give some visionary explanation and insight story update on that.



The irony of the situation being ... you yourself addressed someone who was not talking to you ... yet your pointing fingers at me ... 

I do like your usual sarcasm though ... the draw back being its almost as if all your posts are like 

"*sarcasm* .. explain this to me " ... 

its good to have some points of your own ... eg. I gave you the point of IAF deciding to keep its tush in its airspace after PAF took stand and said we'll respond to your surgical strikes ... if that isn't answer enough for you then I dont know what is ... 

but please continue to enlighten us with your endless list of questions which have in one form or another already been discussed to the death if you just bothered to read ...


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## zebra7

abdulbarijan said:


> The irony of the situation being ... you yourself addressed someone who was not talking to you ... yet your pointing fingers at me ...
> 
> I do like your usual sarcasm though ... the draw back being its almost as if all your posts are like
> 
> "*sarcasm* .. explain this to me " ...
> 
> its good to have some points of your own ... eg. I gave you the point of IAF deciding to keep its tush in its airspace after PAF took stand and said we'll respond to your surgical strikes ... if that isn't answer enough for you then I dont know what is ...
> 
> but please continue to enlighten us with your endless list of questions which have in one form or another already been discussed to the death if you just bothered to read ...


Oh thanks for the compliments and I too have all your post specially liked the way how you calculate the chinese and indian assets and long underline analysis and I was expecting same with you on his point which he make to prove his points about destroying everything Indians have in their inventory. And about my correction note of Tejas instead of Teja your assumption/analysis is showing your ignorance of understanding. Go ahead and prove your clients claim.


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## abdulbarijan

zebra7 said:


> Oh thanks for the compliments and I too have all your post specially liked the way how you calculate the chinese and indian assets and long underline analysis and I was expecting same with you on his point which he make to prove his points about destroying everything Indians have in their inventory. And about my correction note of Tejas instead of Teja your assumption/analysis is showing your ignorance of understanding. Go ahead and prove your clients claim.



Well *thank you for proving my point for me ...*

that infact .. you can't add any point of your own to a debate ... your just picking points like "ohh this point didn't make sense etc. etc." while you dont put up a single point/claim as to show how and continue with your rant of ...

"prove this prove this .. I have another question .. now prove this .. "

As far as my ignorance goes, I will make jokes as I please ... Hal Tejas or Teja or whatever it is .. isn't even able to replace those aging Mig-21's of yours ... the jet that is nicknamed the flying coffin ... the aircraft whose inception goes back to the 1950's and your entire defense is " your ignorant" ... continue living in your world in which every body is an ignorant ... simply because they don't agree with you ...


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## zebra7

abdulbarijan said:


> Well *thank you for proving my point for me ...*
> 
> that infact .. you can't add any point of your own to a debate ... your just picking points like "ohh this point didn't make sense etc. etc." while you dont put up a single point/claim as to show how and continue with your rant of ...
> 
> "prove this prove this .. I have another question .. now prove this .. "


Do you always want to prove that you very intelligent because all your post are very confusing and involves very complex logic's. You are the one who is sticking your nose here and now if you have stuck your nose just give facts pointwise to prove your clients logic and his claim. Don't try to be smart in moving the point from here and there. And one important question do you find satisfaction and amusement in talking too much?????


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## Syed Hussain

Beta-Fighter said:


> 5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?


Seems like that... no matter how much it looks embarrassing...


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## abdulbarijan

zebra7 said:


> Do you always want to prove that you very intelligent because all your post are very confusing and involves very complex logic's. You are the one who is sticking your nose here and now if you have stuck your nose just give facts pointwise to prove your clients logic and his claim. Don't try to be smart in moving the point from here and there. And one important question do you find satisfaction and amusement in talking too much?????



As far as sticking my nose in to this debate .. you did the exact same thing when you got involved in the debate right .. where are your points ?? .. or is it because you don't have any points to contribute at all which is why your entire defense is ...
_*
"*sarcasm* that point seemed wrong to me .. but I cant prove it wrong .. so prove that its right"
*_


Skywalker said:


> Well try crossing the border with your Souter douper su 30 and we will tell you which one will be defending the skies. I can only expect an idiot Indian to compare a non operational teja with a_* war proven machine like f16 which can rip apart anything in your inventory*_.


_*
*_
Since you were nice enough to ask to prove the point, the F-16 does have the potential to overcome anything the IAF fields today ..Briefly speaking since obviously a detailed answer is a little too much for your little processor to handle ... the F-16 _negates the BVR advantage the IAF held_, _operates among the best BVR weapons in the world in the Aim-120 C5, has a low Radar cross section compared to a standard RCS fighter (taken @ 5m2), has advanced avionics and EW equipment ... is considered one of the most successful and THE BEST dog fighter of this generation, add in nearly 3 decades of experience in the F-16 by the PAF pilots ._... Add in the conditions the IAF has to face ... with a huge air space to defend ... where it has PLAAF on one side ... hence contingencies will have to be in place ... add in the nuclear element .... in such conditions where you can't cross a redline otherwise it goes nuclear, when you pit in an F-16 under our doctrine in use ... not only is it in of itself a big threat to anything the IAF fields (because of the reasons mentioned) ... you add in the SAMS, MANPADS, C4I and an AWACS for greater situational awareness ... to add to that your facing an airforce with the majority of the fleet being easily maintainable, meaning lesser turn around times, more availability and most of the time when the IAFcrosses in to the airspace of PAF .. it is much more likely to face a 4th generation fighter ...

Other then that .. you can see what happened with you guys at Red flag 08 ... or the fact that around the time where you were threatening for surgical strikes ... your precious MKI's and M2K's got locked on by PAF F-16's which at that point weren't even BVR capable ...

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## zebra7

abdulbarijan said:


> As far as sticking my nose in to this debate .. you did the exact same thing when you got involved in the debate right .. where are your points ?? .. or is it because you don't have any points to contribute at all which is why your entire defense is ...
> _*
> "*sarcasm* that point seemed wrong to me .. but I cant prove it wrong .. so prove that its right"
> *_
> 
> _*
> *_
> Since you were nice enough to ask to prove the point, the F-16 does have the potential to overcome anything the IAF fields today ..Briefly speaking since obviously a detailed answer is a little too much for your little processor to handle ... the F-16 _negates the BVR advantage the IAF held_, _operates among the best BVR weapons in the world in the Aim-120 C5, has a low Radar cross section compared to a standard RCS fighter (taken @ 5m2), has advanced avionics and EW equipment ... is considered one of the most successful and THE BEST dog fighter of this generation, add in nearly 3 decades of experience in the F-16 by the PAF pilots ._... Add in the conditions the IAF has to face ... with a huge air space to defend ... where it has PLAAF on one side ... hence contingencies will have to be in place ... add in the nuclear element .... in such conditions where you can't cross a redline otherwise it goes nuclear, when you pit in an F-16 under our doctrine in use ... not only is it in of itself a big threat to anything the IAF fields (because of the reasons mentioned) ... you add in the SAMS, MANPADS, C4I and an AWACS for greater situational awareness ... to add to that your facing an airforce with the majority of the fleet being easily maintainable, meaning lesser turn around times, more availability and most of the time when the IAFcrosses in to the airspace of PAF .. it is much more likely to face a 4th generation fighter ...
> 
> Other then that .. you can see what happened with you guys in Red flag 08 ... or the fact that around the time where you were threatening for surgical strikes ... your precious MKI's and M2K's got locked on by PAF F-16's which at that point weren't even BVR capable ...


Quoting a series of past post is showing how you try to mock to be smart which could have been the answer/response to different post. Any thanks for proving me what you really are and my important question which I asked you.

For second part which you have tried to explain, obviously unbriefly to the me, infact with less processing power you explained how F-16 block 52 will lock our precious MKI and M2K and explained all the assets like SAMS, MANPADS, C4I and an AWACS but who is saying that MKI and M2K is coming before cruise missile obviously Brahmos which will be first wave of the attack to soften the target can you explain how you are gonna blow them in pieces. 

I can answer all your points but first explain Brahmos and how you are gonna blow them into pieces.

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## abdulbarijan

zebra7 said:


> Quoting a series of past post is showing how you try to mock to be smart which could have been the answer/response to different post. Any thanks for proving me what you really are and my important question which I asked you.
> 
> For second part which you have tried to explain, obviously unbriefly to the me, infact with less processing power you explained how F-16 block 52 will lock our precious MKI and M2K and explained all the assets like SAMS, MANPADS, C4I and an AWACS but who is saying that MKI and M2K is coming before cruise missile obviously Brahmos which will be first wave of the attack to soften the target can you explain how you are gonna blow them in pieces.
> 
> I can answer all your points but first explain Brahmos and how you are gonna blow them into pieces.



Wow .. what an absolutely great response .. I'm already a fan ... a complete psychiatric diagnosis coupled with your inspiring thoughts_* which somehow never even touched THE ORIGINAL POINT (OF F-16's being able to go toe to toe with anything the IAF fields) WHICH YOU DEMANDED THE EXPLANATION FOR... *_ the only thing that ever came near to a response on point was " I can answer all your points" ...

So continue on with your little drivel as I don't intend to be off topic anymore .... but then again ... *if you think there is no defending a supersonic cruise missile ... then what happens when in retaliation ... PAF launches its stand off weapons ... missiles such as CM-400 AKG which just happens to be 2+ Mach faster then your precious brahmos* ... add in the land based missile assets, which you ran to in response to a post which was discussing aerial warfare ... do familiarize yourself with our ballistic and cruise missile arsenal because you wouldn't be making such a point if you had any idea of whats staring you in the face ... if you exercise such options ...

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## Viper0011.

zebra7 said:


> For second part which you have tried to explain, obviously unbriefly to the me, infact with less processing power you explained how F-16 block 52 will lock our precious MKI and M2K and explained all the assets like SAMS, MANPADS, C4I and an AWACS but who is saying that MKI and M2K is coming before cruise missile obviously Brahmos which will be first wave of the attack to soften the target can you explain how you are gonna blow them in pieces.



Brahmos coming in will not hit the PAF fighters in the air already that were scrambled the second the SU-30's took off!!! The PAF's conventional Radars can see over a 100 miles inside India from all directions. Add AWACS to it, anything landing or taking off from your bases its seen and tracked. Unless you are firing Brahmos from the ground, in which case, why are we talking about an Air battle?? Then the other side will respond with their missiles and TRUST me, in a low nuclear threshold, any missile would be considered "HOT" and Kaboom!!! No one can risk to be hit first in this situation and Pakistan can't afford it as its depth isn't much. So that leaves missiles out of the war.

Now the -16 will see and lock the SU-30 when the SU-30 will lock and see the -16. No one has mature weapons that can hit out a plane from over 100 miles. That's simply not applicable in Pakistan-India's case as a plane can land and what happens to the missile when the lock disappears?? There are 12 things you can do to waste missiles from that far out.

Now both the SU and the -16 will lock and fire BVR's at a similar distance 60 miles or close to it, plus - minus 10%. From this point on, the -16 will never fire one missile as it knows that an advance missile like the AMRAAM C5 or D, will make it to the jet and the best option the SU would eventually have, is to use its TVC.

So the second AMRAAM will be fired knowing that calculation and it'll hit the SU when its recovering or has JUST recovered from the TVC lag. On the other hand, if the SU also fired two missiles, the other Viper is gone too. With advanced missiles, this is almost a sure kill scenario on either side. Whether its M2K or Su-30 or the Viper.

In WVR, pilot training and skills matter a lot. On high altitudes, M2K seems to be more agile and has a heavier thrust. But on normal altitude, the F-16 would eat the M2K for lunch. The USAF trains with the Western planes a LOT. With SU-30, an experienced F-16 dog fighting pilot can win. Just like they win from the F-15's and F-18's. The -16 is just very difficult to shake in a dog fight. But remember, that skill is either with the USAF, Israeli AF, or the Pakistani AF. No other air-force with -16's has the combat experience to produce these battle hardened combat pilots for dog fights!

Ask a superior F-15 pilot what does he fear the most, his answer would be, the Viper!!! He'd be comfortable facing everything else but the Viper. Same applies to this scenario here.

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## zebra7

abdulbarijan said:


> Wow .. what an absolutely great response .. I'm already a fan ... a complete psychiatric diagnosis coupled with your inspiring thoughts_* which somehow never even touched THE ORIGINAL POINT (OF F-16's being able to go toe to toe with anything the IAF fields) WHICH YOU DEMANDED THE EXPLANATION FOR... *_ the only thing that ever came near to a response on point was " I can answer all your points" ...
> 
> So continue on with your little drivel as I don't intend to be off topic anymore .... but then again ... *c* ... add in the land based missile assets, which you ran to in response to a post which was discussing aerial warfare ... do familiarize yourself with our ballistic and cruise missile arsenal because you wouldn't be making such a point if you had any idea of whats staring you in the face ... if you exercise such options ...


Great Answer WOW I had only asked about how pakistan defend against Brahmos your response answer.

Brahmos have different varriants and since you are very much interested in proving that paf will distroy everything which is thrown on Pakistan. 


abdulbarijan said:


> *if you think there is no defending a supersonic cruise missile ... then what happens when in retaliation ... PAF launches its stand off weapons ... missiles such as CM-400 AKG which just happens to be 2+ Mach faster then your precious brahmos*



Such flashy bold letter and underline ?? He He Who is saying Brahmos is un defendable. First of all Brahmos have different version Antiship version, Land Attack Version, Submarine and air Launched vesion. Bhahmos type supersonic cruise missile can be definitely defended by say Barak 8, Aegis, France have the capability etc etc but does Pakistan have that capability or plain and simple which SAM can Defend against Brahmos.

CM-400 AKG for Land attack ? I thought it was anti-ship cruise missile and the hypersonic speed oh that one is achieved during the terminal phase i.e around 30 Km near the target when missile dive steply otherwise it is subsonic missile.


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## abdulbarijan

zebra7 said:


> Great Answer WOW I had only asked about how pakistan defend against Brahmos your response answer.
> 
> Brahmos have different varriants and since you are very much interested in proving that paf will distroy everything which is thrown on Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Such flashy bold letter and underline ?? He He Who is saying Brahmos is un defendable. First of all Brahmos have different version Antiship version, Land Attack Version, Submarine and air Launched vesion. Bhahmos type supersonic cruise missile can be definitely defended by say Barak 8, Aegis, France have the capability etc etc but does Pakistan have that capability or plain and simple which SAM can Defend against Brahmos.
> 
> CM-400 AKG for Land attack ? I thought it was anti-ship cruise missile and the hypersonic speed oh that one is achieved during the terminal phase i.e around 30 Km near the target when missile dive steply otherwise it is subsonic missile.



_*I post a whole bolded response on how you never even touched the points which you wanted to be proved to you ... i.e (F-16 going toe to toe with IAF assets) ... and you don't even have the audacity to touch that part with any serious response, never mind a real reply in any shape or form .. *_

So .. your defense of the whole statement of PAF having XYZ stand off assets never mind our entire repertoire of missile assets is that "Brahmos has different versions" .. atleast look up the things your posting before you post them .. eg. CM-400 AKG is an asset that can also be used to attack fixed targets .. and _*speaking of different versions ... the versions you quote ... like an ALCM Brahmos hasn't even been tested as of yet ..*_

Test Launch of Operational BrahMos Missile From Su-30MKI in 2016

As for being defend able ... that is a whole different debate .. The patriot is supposedly the world's best when it comes to interception of missiles etc. but the success rate against SCUDS (which was originally made in the Soviet union era) is 70% in war/real situations ... As for having assets .. we do have Surface to air missile assets that do have the capacity to undertake such tasks .. such as SPADA 2000 ...


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## Syed_Adeel

Beta-Fighter said:


> 5 years you wasted in dreaming for J10 and now another 5 years for dreaming Su-35?


Well This is more suitable for IAF Rafael procurement and LCA development.
for us we took time for JFT maturing and getting more funds and tech options in the mean while.
and if you look closely then you will find that tech gap and hightech platform gap between PAF and IAF has been significantly decreased.

j10 is always available to PAF so thats not the issue(including finances) to procure in any emergency condition
su 35 is some thing US is worried about and thats some thing great for PAF. 

in the end we are not like IAF who cannot maintain its fleet strength despite of having funds and multiple options.
even in very bad times, PAF maintained its strength and IAF couldnt dare to do any adventure despite of having numerical and technological superiority(both of which are fast disappearing now).


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## zebra7

Viper0011. said:


> Brahmos coming in will not hit the PAF fighters in the air already that were scrambled the second the SU-30's took off!!! The PAF's conventional Radars can see over a 100 miles inside India from all directions. Add AWACS to it, anything landing or taking off from your bases its seen and tracked. Unless you are firing Brahmos from the ground, in which case, why are we talking about an Air battle?? Then the other side will respond with their missiles and TRUST me, in a low nuclear threshold, any missile would be considered "HOT" and Kaboom!!! No one can risk to be hit first in this situation and Pakistan can't afford it as its depth isn't much. So that leaves missiles out of the war.
> 
> Now the -16 will see and lock the SU-30 when the SU-30 will lock and see the -16. No one has mature weapons that can hit out a plane from over 100 miles. That's simply not applicable in Pakistan-India's case as a plane can land and what happens to the missile when the lock disappears?? There are 12 things you can do to waste missiles from that far out.
> 
> Now both the SU and the -16 will lock and fire BVR's at a similar distance 60 miles or close to it, plus - minus 10%. From this point on, the -16 will never fire one missile as it knows that an advance missile like the AMRAAM C5 or D, will make it to the jet and the best option the SU would eventually have, is to use its TVC.
> 
> So the second AMRAAM will be fired knowing that calculation and it'll hit the SU when its recovering or has JUST recovered from the TVC lag. On the other hand, if the SU also fired two missiles, the other Viper is gone too. With advanced missiles, this is almost a sure kill scenario on either side. Whether its M2K or Su-30 or the Viper.
> 
> In WVR, pilot training and skills matter a lot. On high altitudes, M2K seems to be more agile and has a heavier thrust. But on normal altitude, the F-16 would eat the M2K for lunch. The USAF trains with the Western planes a LOT. With SU-30, an experienced F-16 dog fighting pilot can win. Just like they win from the F-15's and F-18's. The -16 is just very difficult to shake in a dog fight. But remember, that skill is either with the USAF, Israeli AF, or the Pakistani AF. No other air-force with -16's has the combat experience to produce these battle hardened combat pilots for dog fights!
> 
> Ask a superior F-15 pilot what does he fear the most, his answer would be, the Viper!!! He's be comfortable facing everything else but the Viper. Same applies to this scenario here.



Good answer and logical post leave aside nuclear threshold aside.

1. Air Launched, and Land launched Brahmos could be first used to soften the target and to target the hardened and well protected targets like forward bases, radars, installation etc. The advantage of using Brahmos is the sheer speed aka low response time and difficult to intercept for pakistan with the current SAMs. If I would have been the IAF chief our prime target would have been the ground radars, and the bases including the bases for the AWACS instead of AWAC platform i.e SAAB 2000. For surgical strike SEAD mission using UAV like heron and antiradiation missile like KH55.
Prime target distroy the radars installation there is no need to distroy the SAM tel which will be concluded during DEAD when ground attack Jaguars low flying ability would be needed.

2. India nuclear doctrine have provided ballastic missile as the delivery platform and not the supersonic cruise missile like brahmos and both have different tragectory and it could be distinguished easily in radar screen than which nuclear threshold.

3. Do you really think after depleting radars and sams threat Indian Su 30 or the su 30 formation will come alone. My guess is it will come with the formation of Mix of Mki acting as command station with KLINIT SPJ providing SAM jamming cover to the formation of Mirrage 2000UPG/mig29 UPG and Jaguar and during air to air conflict with F-16 the BVR R-77 with superior range and more BVR load will have upperhand. Yes if Indian followed the russian strategy of firing 2 BVR i.e 1 with the active mode and 2nd with IR guided mode per aircraft than the chances of BVR hitting the target will increased upto 85%. IAF have advantage of longer BVR experience and strategies build over decades as compared to PAF and more friendly exercises and have more different array of BVR than the PAF counterpart

4. In WVR guns vs guns i think is over but anyway with the event of high boresight, highly manuevour missile like R-73, Python and AIM MX have closed the window for the dogfights of planes with trailing gunfires. Regarding f16 trained pilot skills I cannot comment because it differ from one pilot to another but I can assure you that Indians pilot are no FUSS. They spend long time in air practicing and there is in pilot skill development of Indian Airforce is not bad at all by any standard.

5. Disadvantage of PAF is in nos How many F-16 is available with the Paf. Keeping one more thing in mind that the Indians have equiped even Mig 21 Bison with BVR.



abdulbarijan said:


> _*I post a whole bolded response on how you never even touched the points which you wanted to be proved to you ... i.e (F-16 going toe to toe with IAF assets) ... and you don't even have the audacity to touch that part with any serious response, never mind a real reply in any shape or form .. *_
> 
> So .. your defense of the whole statement of PAF having XYZ stand off assets never mind our entire repertoire of missile assets is that "Brahmos has different versions" .. atleast look up the things your posting before you post them .. eg. CM-400 AKG is an asset that can also be used to attack fixed targets .. and _*speaking of different versions ... the versions you quote ... like an ALCM Brahmos hasn't even been tested as of yet ..*_
> 
> Test Launch of Operational BrahMos Missile From Su-30MKI in 2016
> 
> As for being defend able ... that is a whole different debate .. The patriot is supposedly the world's best when it comes to interception of missiles etc. but the success rate against SCUDS (which was originally made in the Soviet union era) is 70% in war/real situations ... As for having assets .. we do have Surface to air missile assets that do have the capacity to undertake such tasks .. such as SPADA 2000 ...


Janab thanking you for your points. There is no point of discussion with you after I read 

*As for being defend able ... that is a whole different debate .. The patriot is supposedly the world's best when it comes to interception of missiles etc. but the success rate against SCUDS (which was originally made in the Soviet union era) is 70% in war/real situations ... As for having assets .. we do have Surface to air missile assets that do have the capacity to undertake such tasks .. such as SPADA 2000 ...*

Scuds is ballastic missile by the way Janab


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## abdulbarijan

zebra7 said:


> Good answer and logical post leave aside nuclear threshold aside.
> 
> 1. Air Launched, and Land launched Brahmos could be first used to soften the target and to target the hardened and well protected targets like forward bases, radars, installation etc. The advantage of using Brahmos is the sheer speed aka low response time and difficult to intercept for pakistan with the current SAMs. If I would have been the IAF chief our prime target would have been the ground radars, and the bases including the bases for the AWACS instead of AWAC platform i.e SAAB 2000. For surgical strike SEAD mission using UAV like heron and antiradiation missile like KH55.
> Prime target distroy the radars installation there is no need to distroy the SAM tel which will be concluded during DEAD when ground attack Jaguars low flying ability would be needed.
> 
> 2. India nuclear doctrine have provided ballastic missile as the delivery platform and not the supersonic cruise missile like brahmos and both have different tragectory and it could be distinguished easily in radar screen than which nuclear threshold.
> 
> 3. Do you really think after depleting radars and sams threat Indian Su 30 or the su 30 formation will come alone. My guess is it will come with the formation of Mix of Mki acting as command station with KLINIT SPJ providing SAM jamming cover to the formation of Mirrage 2000UPG/mig29 UPG and Jaguar and during air to air conflict with F-16 the BVR R-77 with superior range and more BVR load will have upperhand. Yes if Indian followed the russian strategy of firing 2 BVR i.e 1 with the active mode and 2nd with IR guided mode per aircraft than the chances of BVR hitting the target will increased upto 85%. IAF have advantage of longer BVR experience and strategies build over decades as compared to PAF and more friendly exercises and have more different array of BVR than the PAF counterpart
> 
> 4. In WVR guns vs guns i think is over but anyway with the event of high boresight, highly manuevour missile like R-73, Python and AIM MX have closed the window for the dogfights of planes with trailing gunfires. Regarding f16 trained pilot skills I cannot comment because it differ from one pilot to another but I can assure you that Indians pilot are no FUSS. They spend long time in air practicing and there is in pilot skill development of Indian Airforce is not bad at all by any standard.
> 
> 5. Disadvantage of PAF is in nos How many F-16 is available with the Paf. Keeping one more thing in mind that the Indians have equiped even Mig 21 Bison with BVR.
> 
> 
> Janab thanking you for your points. There is no point of discussion with you after I read
> 
> *As for being defend able ... that is a whole different debate .. The patriot is supposedly the world's best when it comes to interception of missiles etc. but the success rate against SCUDS (which was originally made in the Soviet union era) is 70% in war/real situations ... As for having assets .. we do have Surface to air missile assets that do have the capacity to undertake such tasks .. such as SPADA 2000 ...*
> 
> Scuds is ballastic missile by the way Janab



I do know the Scuds are ballistic missiles ... do you have success rates of such SAM's against cruise missiles in a war time situation ... maybe you'd like to quote the success rates of some systems because I was not able to find them ...

I did find your reply interesting, certainly alot more then the previous ones with no arguments .. only talk of prove this prove that ... Since there is no point in discussing with me ... don't read the following cuz it might just hurt your feelings ..

There are QUITE A FEW "assumptions" that you use to build your case ...

-*The assumption that future weapons of India are already in service* .. eg. Air launched version of Brahmos is already inducted when its not even tested .. (was originally scheduled for 2015 but now its 2016)

-*The assumption, that Pakistan would be responding accordingly with the Indian doctrine of non usage of nuclear weapons in cruise missiles* ... like brahmos which are nuclear capable as per some sources ...so in the chaos of the war ... you think that somehow Pakistan will hold back against a weapon that could probably carry a nuclear war head...

-*The assumption that PAF, and PA won't respond to "softening" of the defense* ... what happens when Pakistan unleashes its own barrage of stand off weapons and cruise missiles that we possess against India ...

-*The assumption that IAF will be able to deplete Pakistan's radar and SAM assets* ... we have an airforce that is designed from the outset to have low turn around times and high availability owing to platforms that require low maintenance ...so how do your SEAD and DEAD operations go, while you face resistance .. and the threat of being subjected to the taste of your own medicine ...coupled with the fact that your airforce is largely composed of maintenance intensive fighters.. quadrupled with the fact that you have an airforce in PLAAF that is a known hostile .. so what steps will the IAF take as contingencies against these sorta odds ...
*
-The series of assumptions you use with the aircrafts going up against each other ... *
-The first being the IAF will be more proficient with BVR usage because it has more experience compared to the Pakistani pilots .. however somehow in WVR pilot training is brushed off with statements such as as ... 

"I cannot comment because it differ from one pilot to another but I can assure you that Indians pilot are no FUSS" --

what do you think PAF pilots were doing when they did not have the BVR's ?? .. they were perfecting the WVR which the airforce is famous for and quite proficient in ... 

-The second assumption being, the R-77 has a more superior range compared to the AMRAAM's ... discounting the fact that most BVR engagements would take place in distances where pilots are the missile is most likely to score a kill ... that discounts the range advantage although there is no range advantage to begin with as ... the IAF operates the R-77 RVV-AE which has around approx 54 NMI range ... Aim-120 C5 on the other hand has approx 57 NMI range .. so unfortunately for you .. the version IAF currently operates, range wise is actually inferior to the Aim-120 C5 ... 

-Thirdly, do look up F-16 configurations as to what type of weapon mix it can carry ... hint .. alot deadlier then you think ...

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## zebra7

abdulbarijan said:


> I do know the Scuds are ballistic missiles ... do you have success rates of such SAM's against cruise missiles in a war time situation ... maybe you'd like to quote the success rates of some systems because I was not able to find them ...


You will not find that because you are more interested in the web of words and making talk complex.


abdulbarijan said:


> I did find your reply interesting, certainly alot more then the previous ones with no arguments .. only talk of prove this prove that ... Since there is no point in discussing with me ... don't read the following cuz it might just hurt your feelings .. as there are some assumptions that you use to build your case ...


Hurt my feeling buddy what are you talking again I ask simple question and you should have answer simple like spada2000 or HQ-9 etc why are you migling words its meaning thats irritating.


abdulbarijan said:


> *The assumption that future weapons of India are already in service* .. eg. Air launched version of Brahmos is already inducted when its not even tested .. (was originally scheduled for 2015 but now its 2016)
> 
> -*The assumption, that Pakistan would be responding accordingly with the Indian doctrine of non usage of nuclear weapons in cruise missiles* ... like brahmos which are nuclear capable as per some sources ...
> 
> -*The assumption that PAF, and PA won't respond to "softening" of the defense* ... what happens when Pakistan unleashes its own barrage of stand off weapons and cruise missiles that we possess against India ...
> 
> -*The assumption that IAF will be able to deplete Pakistan's radar and SAM assets* ... we have an airforce that is designed from the outset to have low turn around times and high availability owing to platforms that require low maintenance ...


You fail to understand the idea its all the hypothetical talk in hypothetical sceniorio otherwise I could be the defense expert and giving service to the India defence forces. Why working so hard you are bringing only chinese supplied weapons in case of Pakistan and in case of Indians only Indian developed weapon. Just google how many thypes of weapon could be fired from the MKI its more than 70 type of Russian origin including air launched cruise missiles, antiradiation, long range sams, ground attack cruise missile supersonic and subsonic.

By the way do you really believe the range of Brahmos is 300 km due to MTCR in reality.


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## abdulbarijan

zebra7 said:


> You will not find that because you are more interested in the web of words and making talk complex.
> 
> Hurt my feeling buddy what are you talking again I ask simple question and you should have answer simple like spada2000 or HQ-9 etc why are you migling words its meaning thats irritating.
> 
> You fail to understand the idea its all the hypothetical talk in hypothetical sceniorio otherwise I could be the defense expert and giving service to the India defence forces. Why working so hard you are bringing only chinese supplied weapons in case of Pakistan and in case of Indians only Indian developed weapon. Just google how many thypes of weapon could be fired from the MKI its more than 70 type of Russian origin including air launched cruise missiles, antiradiation, long range sams, ground attack cruise missile supersonic and subsonic.
> 
> By the way do you really believe the range of Brahmos is 300 km due to MTCR in reality.



Meaning you don't have an answer yourself .. hence " you make talkkk complexx " .. and I already answered your question .. which never even touched the original topic at hand btw but for someone who complains like a little child over "making talk complex" you certainly have no problem in throwing in those hypothetical situatuions of yours...

_The only difference is when you do google it (referring to your more then 70 weapons which can be used with the SU-30) Do refer to what weapons and versions your airforce operates Mr defense expert .. _and like wise do look at the weaponry that PAF also operates before you go on your long tirades of hypothetical situations ... in which only 2 lines are devoted to the original topic and the rest is ...

"Do you believe ..... XYZ" "Do you believe ... ABC" ... that being more or less your entire defense ...


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## zebra7

abdulbarijan said:


> Meaning you don't have an answer yourself .. hence " you make talkkk complexx " .. and I already answered your question .. which never even touched the original topic at hand btw but for someone who complains like a little child over "making talk complex" you certainly have no problem in throwing in things like this .. (the hypothetical situatuion of yours)
> 
> The only difference is when you do google it referring to your more then 70 weapons which can be used with the SU-30 .. Do refer to what weapons and versions your airforce operates Mr defense expert .. and like wise do look at the weaponry that PAF also operates before you go on your long tirades of hypothetical situations ... in which only 2 lines are devoted to the original topic and the rest is ...
> 
> "Do you believe ..... XYZ" "Do you believe ... ABC" ... that being more or less your entire defense ...


If you have answered my question ?? What is left then ?? What was the answer by the way ??

I said the whole idea !! If you got the idea of my point that what is left for the discussion ??

Google was just for the example to show that how you interpret from the words of someone and if you understand than good and if you fail to understand more well and good.

Nobody can win from you !! Lage raho !! By the way the topic of the thread is J10b engine al31fn to pakistan.


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## abdulbarijan

zebra7 said:


> If you have answered my question ?? What is left then ?? What was the answer by the way ??
> 
> I said the whole idea !! If you got the idea of my point that what is left for the discussion ??
> 
> Google was just for the example to show that how you interpret from the words of someone and if you understand than good and if you fail to understand more well and good.
> 
> Nobody can win from you !! Lage raho !! By the way the topic of the thread is J10b engine al31fn to pakistan.



Wait so now google is an example of how I interpret things ?? -- irrespective of the fact that you were putting in to simulation a weapon that isn't even tested ... considering the fact that your entire posts are composed of "do you believe this .... " or "prove this" ..



> "Google was just for the example to show that how you interpret from the words of someone and if you understand than good and if you fail to understand more well and good."



So this excuse of a sentence .. which is supposed to mean something .. is related to the example showcasing how interpret stuff ...

No no, please carry on ... enlighten us more ... next consider PAK-FA in your hypothetical situation .. no one can equal your intelligence ... or the textual genocide that you commit every time you try to post something ... so keep dreaming .. 



zebra7 said:


> Ok if you insist why not the problem with you is that you keep reading the sentence word by word and try to search the mistakes in them and then try to make fun of him. With idea means the the logic or the thing what he wants to explain or what he feels but since you are only concentrating in words with you brain ready to unaccept anything different what you knows or what you believe thats why you feels bad or hurt when someone differ than you. Thats why there is no way I could answer you. And because you have already made your assumption that i have the *brain of peanut or small computing power* just chill and post this underline words and put some :rofi image and make my fun. Ok.



Your entire "idea" was what ??? -- ohh yes .. your idea of an "idea" is ... 

" do you really believe this is whats going on" --- 

or rather your hypothesis ... where a country is firing nuclear capable missiles on the other and there is not even a response to that ... keep believing that ... might help you sleep at night ...


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## zebra7

abdulbarijan said:


> Wait so now google is an example of how I interpret things ?? -- irrespective of the fact that you were putting in to simulation a weapon that isn't even tested ... considering the fact that your entire posts except 1 and that too has bits and pieces of the same "do you believe this .... "
> 
> 
> 
> So this excuse of a sentence .. which is supposed to mean something .. is showcasing how interpret stuff ...
> 
> No no, please carry on ... enlighten us more ... next consider PAK-FA in your hypothetical situation .. no one can equal your intelligence ... or the textual genocide that you commit every time you try to post something ... so keep dreaming ..


Ok if you insist why not the problem with you is that you keep reading the sentence word by word and try to search the mistakes in them and then try to make fun of him. With idea means the the logic or the thing what he wants to explain or what he feels but since you are only concentrating in words with you brain ready to unaccept anything different what you knows or what you believe thats why you feels bad or hurt when someone differ than you. Thats why there is no way I could answer you. And because you have already made your assumption that i have the *brain of peanut or small computing power* just chill and post this underline words and put some :rofi image and make my fun. Ok.


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## kshaib

China will give 10b plane to Pakistan, Russia will not reject, Russia need china for many reason, china is Mother to Pakistan.


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## araz

Mohammad Fazil Khan Lodhi said:


> China will give 10b plane to Pakistan, Russia will not reject, Russia need china for many reason, china is Mother to Pakistan.


As always the real question is not what our Chinese brethren will hand over to us. The relationship calculus more or less matches the US Israeli relationship in many aspects. The question is whether there is a need for a second single engined mid range fighter from the same source or whether things have moved on. I maybe totally wrong but the J10 boat sailed by in 2010. The main cause of PAFs reluctance was the lack of a Chinese engine posing a logistical nightmare, Russian reluctance to export AL31 FN 3 to PAF and the lack of a tangible advantage from inducting the platform. I suspect the spectre of J10 was effectively utilized by PAF to gain more 16s which not only are a much less labour intensive platform to induct as compared to J10 but have more or less closed the door for further J10 imports. I suspect we will finally get upto 110 platforms and if possible caccoon a couple of squadrons for emergency use.
The other interesting fact was that back in 2009/10 PAF started saying J10 will not be integrated in PAF due to lack of any significant advantage and the immense upgradability potential of JFT. None of us understood what was being talked about and even senior AF people like pshamim expressed his doubts about the resolve of PAF and the motives behind it. Six years down the line we now understand why PAF had said what it said at the time. JFT is PAFs destiny and this is how this play is going to the curtain.
A

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## zebra7

Chinese have invested heavily in Engine R&D but still the development of engines is not only easy but required heavy investment and industrial base. I think Chinese still lacks in metallugy and the manufacturers of Russia, french, us have decades of experience in its development. Chinese engines required time to get matured enough to gain the confidence of the other nations. I believe PAF and other Pakistani expert might have done analysis of this factor and the risk of taking the chinese engine into consideration. I agreed with you on the point regarding J10b export into PAF.


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## black-hawk_101

I think Pakistan and China are working on the possible supply of 50 J-31s with same engine as of JF-17s


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## ChennaiDude

maxpayne said:


> Another correction that 1956 was the first constitution so naturally it was for the first time it changed its name. Pakistan was about to be an Islamic state on 1940 and in 1948 after objective resolution.


Thanks for the clarification..I stay corrected.


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## HAIDER

@MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing. And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35 and Gen Raheel negotiated the deal. Another addition, PAF is trying to adopt AESA in block 3, but not sure that would be able to do that.

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## Quwa

There is one scenario where the J-10 could end up joining PAF and that is if additional F-16s just cannot be had. In the medium weight category the PAF already has a solid system (F-16), so it makes sense that it'd build upon the existing infrastructure layout for C/D and A/B by procuring as many used and new airframes as possible. 

But while this is the obvious choice, it is puzzling that PAF hasn't really taken this route. Seems to me there is an actual political hold-up on the U.S side. Sure, let's assume PAF doesn't have the money for new frames or even the funds to upgrade old ones, but why not just procure the frames as is like it did with Jordan? We know PAF has financial issues, but I seriously don't think it'd be as bad as being unable to buy fighters for $10-15 million a unit.

If the PAF seriously thinks there is a need to keep building up the medium weight category and not perhaps split it more extremely between heavy (Su-35) and light (JF-17) fighters, then it could end up with J-10 (or J-10B). The other option might be the MiG-35, which could have engine commonality with JF-17!

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## Viper0011.

Abingdonboy said:


> France has assured India of deliveries of their Rafales starting 2017.



My sources told me from the Pakistani side that don't you worry, either J-10B or the SU-35's will be coming around the SAME time, and with some -16's used with low flying hours on them.

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## Muhammad Omar

HAIDER said:


> @MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
> About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing. And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35



Are they (PAF) waiting For J-10B or J-10C ?? Plus how come J-10 is Pakistan China Joint Venture?

Plus the Possible chance of TOT and manufacturing? i don't see that happening


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## New World

HAIDER said:


> @MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
> About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, *he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . *PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing. And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35


what JV of j-10??



HAIDER said:


> @MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
> About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but *PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing.* And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35


what's the problem in it if J-10 is JV?? and why china not want to sell j-10 with tot and manufacturing rights??


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## ACE OF THE AIR

HAIDER said:


> @MastanKhan .....Few days ago, meet one of PAF contractor in party, ask few question and got interesting answer.
> About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese . PAF having dispute, Chinese wants to sell the plane, but PAF wants technology transfer including manufacturing. And its China who wants Pak to buy SU35



Very interesting... New engine for JF-17 is ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_M88 .... It will be powering the JF-17 B (twin seater). Already known...
If it is some other engine that it could be possible that JF-17 is going to Saudi Arabia and the engine that is going to power it would be Euro Jet. 

J-10 B & C is a JV that was also conformed when an initial order for 36 aircraft was placed. China does not want to give TOT for such a low number but if PAF increases the order then it would come. Secondly there were news regarding an other place where PAF would be manufacturing aircraft once export orders are obtained and the same facility would have the infrastructure to manufacture the J10's.. This was also stated earlier nothing new.

There is also news that PAF has been testing some Chinese types for some time and some have also landed for the PAF as Sir @MastanKhan already stated.

SU-35 MOU is signed between China and Russia for 60+ aircraft but China does not want them so it is asking PAF to take these. This would give Pakistan and China the latest Russian Stealth technology and newer engine. How ever PAF is looking for an aircraft that the PN could offord and is capable of operating hence they are inclined towards the J-15's It would really be interesting if The Russians offer Pakistan SU-24's as well then they could really have a nice combo. This way the carrier progration would not be limited of PN and also PAF.




Mark Sien said:


> There is one scenario where the J-10 could end up joining PAF and that is if additional F-16s just cannot be had. In the medium weight category the PAF already has a solid system (F-16), so it makes sense that it'd build upon the existing infrastructure layout for C/D and A/B by procuring as many used and new airframes as possible.
> 
> But while this is the obvious choice, it is puzzling that PAF hasn't really taken this route. Seems to me there is an actual political hold-up on the U.S side. Sure, let's assume PAF doesn't have the money for new frames or even the funds to upgrade old ones, but why not just procure the frames as is like it did with Jordan? We know PAF has financial issues, but I seriously don't think it'd be as bad as being unable to buy fighters for $10-15 million a unit.
> 
> If the PAF seriously thinks there is a need to keep building up the medium weight category and not perhaps split it more extremely between heavy (Su-35) and light (JF-17) fighters, then it could end up with J-10 (or J-10B). The other option might be the MiG-35, which could have engine commonality with JF-17!



PAF would rely to much on the US and the maximum numbers of F-16's would not exceed 110 aircraft. PAF is looking to replace F-7's and Mirages along with adding a dedicated air-superiority fighter aircraft. PAF knows it can not operatate the F-15s hence they wanted the F-18 but the ones that were offered were not up to the standards that PAF was looking. Hence F-16 that PAF has at present would be enough till a proper fifth gen is available. the F-16's would then be replaced. This would most likely turn Pakistan towards the Turkish fighter x and the Korean Fighter x as they would be using this engine. 



Viper0011. said:


> My sources told me from the Pakistani side that don't you worry, either J-10B or the SU-35's will be coming around the SAME time, and with some -16's used with low flying hours on them.



The F-16 you are mentioning are the ones that are stored in the US. They can only be available to PAF if Pakistan joins the War against ISIS. Then only the US parliament could opt for providing PAF. PAF could also be looking towards getting the F-35's.




Muhammad Omar said:


> Are they (PAF) waiting For J-10B or J-10C ?? Plus how come J-10 is Pakistan China Joint Venture?
> 
> Plus the Possible chance of TOT and manufacturing? i don't see that happening



PAF is looking east then west because PAF and PN knows that it much more simpler to deal with the Asian.


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## v9s

abdulbarijan said:


> BVR arena isn't as simple as that .. I've been following debates surrounding BVR's from the days where discussions were held around the topics of PAF forcing the IAF in to WVR,* because we didn't have any "declared" BVR capability at the time .. then there were many rumors of the weapons that are declared stand off A2G weapons ... were actually BVR A2A weapons* .. that Pakistan had somehow reverse engineered .... until the AMRAAM deal with the blk-52's was signed and then we had SD-10 with JFT's



PAF was indeed BVR capable before the AMRAAMs came into play. Our F-7's are BVR capable. In-fact I recall Pakistan developing a BVR missile with the help of South-Africa (I think) called the "Red-Cresent." It was leaked on this very forum, back when defence.pk was lax on intel security.



HAIDER said:


> @MastanKhan
> About JF17 engine, he said Block 3 is getting new engine. Second, about J10, he said J10 is joint venture of PAF and Chinese



How is J-10b a joint venture? I think the PAF personnel must have his vocab mixed up. The J-10A was improved upon with some input from PAF for the J-10B back when we were interested in inducting it. That doesn't make it a Joint Venture though - we didn't put up any money for it.


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## zebra7

Viper0011. said:


> 1) Rafale's RCS isn't .1m2. Its much more than that. Rafale is a twin engine plane......the comparison with a Mirage 2000, was: (1): for marketing, and (2): frontal only.
> US radars (TPS 77) and other advanced Chinese radars Pakistan has, are 3-D. Frontal RCS means nothing......try about .7m2 for Rafale, which is still very good for its size. If you were flying against Sudan or Nigeria or Bogota, you might get .1m2 due to older radars being used.
> 
> 2) The J-10B has around .8m2 to 1m2, depending on the configuration (I am quoting A2A and frontal only). Add heavier bombs or anti-ship missiles, it adds up an additional 1.5m2 or slightly above. So overall, around 2m2-3m2, depending upon the loadout. J-10A has a bigger RCS around 4-5m2.



1. How can RCS changes with the Radar of sudan,nigeria,bogata and with the pakistani radar ??? This is the first time i am hearing that. Can you give me some more information on that.


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## Viper0011.

zebra7 said:


> 1. How can RCS changes with the Radar of sudan,nigeria,bogata and with the pakistani radar ??? This is the first time i am hearing that. Can you give me some more information on that.



Did you just ask me this? Where is the actual "question"?? How about you re-read what I am saying, re-think before posting just silly statements and ACTUALLY ask a question?

I specifically mentioned the TYPE of Radar being used and other 3-D radars. What does TPS-77 has to do with Pakistan or Nigeria?? We are talking about its mechanics and how it works, you can put it on top of your house and it'll work the same way!!!

If you really want me to respond to a post, ask something that makes sense. Otherwise, don't bother in wasting a post of yours and a post of mine in response!

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## zebra7

Viper0011. said:


> Did you just ask me this? Where is the actual "question"?? How about you re-read what I am saying, re-think before posting just silly statements and ACTUALLY ask a question?
> 
> I specifically mentioned the TYPE of Radar being used and other 3-D radars. What does TPS-77 has to do with Pakistan or Nigeria?? We are talking about its mechanics and how it works, you can put it on top of your house and it'll work the same way!!!
> 
> If you really want me to respond to a post, ask something that makes sense. Otherwise, don't bother in wasting a post of yours and a post of mine in response!


Oh don't take it too seriously buddy.
What I know which may be wrong is Radar that provide only range and bearing information are referred to as
two-dimensional(2D) radars. Radar sets that supply range, bearing, and height are called three-dimensional radars.

and RCS is Radar cross section is the size and ability of a target to reflect radar energy.

σ = 4·π·r2·Sr /St
where
σ: measure of the target's ability to reflect radar signals in direction of the radar receiver, in [m²]
St: power density that is intercepted by the target, in [W/m²]
Sr: scattered power density in the range r, in [W/m²]

So the Rcs will depend on the material of the plane, its gemetory, the frequency of the radar and the direction of the illuminating source of the radar.

1. Just want to know how could the use of the better radar could increase the rcs so much.
2. How are you getting all these frontal RCS values of the fighter planes which you have mentioned above period; if the radars quality plays such big effect in the calculation of RCS because when the measurement is been done by different countries is there any default and standard radar for the sake of unformity.
3. When no OEM, pilot officially gives out any value of the RCS how did you get all these values I mean the source.


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## zebra7

Darth Vader said:


> One Point BVR isnt at simple as much you guys make it , BVR if fired from long distance it also gives opponent chance to evade because distance comes in play , To cover that number of Missiles are fired but at with a time gap so even if your opponent evades your 1st missile , he wont be able to lose 2nd or 3rd because he will lose his energy in evading 1st missile
> Now Coming to Pakistan and India , US is depending alot on BVR Or other long range stand off missiles because of the its location , in Pakistan in india equation it will result will come in seconds and mostly it will be WVR
> 
> 
> 
> Now J10 and J11 are good platforms no doubt about it But All you guys who are talking if india gets Rafale Paf will go for j10 or j11 , No doubt Rafale is one of the best 4.5 gen jet available in market , Can j10 or J11 match in its performance
> Because as when ever someone talks about air battle most of the members here talking about MKI and migs RCS , even there were some news about J11 has less rcs than Sukhoi family still going for that ,
> You Wont See Rafale joining IAF before 2018 to 2019 So best time to upgrade fleet with a newer jet and than some same funds to go on shopping


For the Air superiority Aircraft BVR plays the primrary role and its superiority goes down with the distance decrease between the two adversories. But the problem is that the ratio of sucessfull BVR hitting the target is not very good right now. It can be jammed, or fool with different tactics. A good examples of tactics are to out manuver the BVR missile because lot of people thinks the BVR like AIM120 with 40g at mach 4 could not be maneuver with the 9 g at 0.9 mach. It is because the BVR travelling at mach 4 have big turn radius than the fighter plane at slower speed and maneuver e.g barel roll, jinking, turn back and dive etc etc can be employed to evade the missile. But the problem is with the timing with which the pilot have to make the decision prompt because the missile is travelling to him at very high speed and could get only 20 sec to think and decide. WVR missile such as python 5 is something that is very very difficult to evade actually. Its agile, seeker and intelligent computer makes him something very very deadly and the only tactics with that is only flares. Off bore sight missile like python, aim 9x, r73 a-11 archer cued with the helmet mounted targeting makes it even more complicated and the deadly weapon.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The next few year we will see the emergence of a different kind of aircraft. A re-furbished 3 gen aircraft with the technology and weapons of the 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft. We are actually seeing some of them now.
> 
> The KFIR with and aesa upgrade------the BLK 52 F 16 with an aesa upgrade----the mirage 2000 with an aesa upgrade----the JH7B with an aesa upgrade.
> 
> All these aircraft will get the state of the art avionics, radars, jammers and missiles and smart bombs. 5th gen aircraft are extremely expensive to manufacture---maintain and operate---so these older updated aircraft will do most of the leg work.
> 
> Right now we can only speculate---but with the high kill ratios of these modern day BVR missiles---it will not be very easy to assess what the first couple of days of air war look like.
> 
> The Tornados could launch WVR range missiles as well as BVR missiles----along with their regular weapons load----this just gave them some tools to fight back with.
> 
> The problem over here is with coming to grips with the technology---the conventional wisdom takes technology only so far----after that they just don't want to accept its powers and strengths.
> 
> So---let us put two aircraft side by side---A J11 and a JH7B-----both aircraft have the same aesa radar---bth have the same number of SD10B BVR missiles-----both are facing a similar oncoming target at the same distance-----both are going to launch at the same time---so why would the results are going to be different---no reason to under similar circumstances---because it is the radar lock and the missile doing the talking and not the aircraft---which is just a conduit of delivery at BVR.


Great post mastan Bhai but my view little bit different. This is based on the tests and analysis by the Japanese airforce and found that it is much better to have slow simple cheaper plane with loads of bvr say 20 bvr which would be guided and getting the passive data va link with a single high end fighter plane with superior radars and ew sensors. In other words it will only act as the load loader carrying bvr and firing the baragge of missile then to have all high quality 4.5 gen fighter planes.


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## Muhammad Omar

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF is looking east then west because PAF and PN knows that it much more simpler to deal with the Asian.



I know that.... But the thing that J-10 is a joint venture is shocking one for me..

Wish we can just buy 100 of em  and Su-35 to replace Mirages..... 

100 J-10
76 F-16
150 JF-17 
30 JF + 18 Su-35 for Navy
18 Su-25 for PAF 

we have a Damn good Airforce   
some dreams


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## HAIDER

v9s said:


> PAF was indeed BVR capable before the AMRAAMs came into play. Our F-7's are BVR capable. In-fact I recall Pakistan developing a BVR missile with the help of South-Africa (I think) called the "Red-Cresent." It was leaked on this very forum, back when defence.pk was lax on intel security.
> 
> 
> 
> How is J-10b a joint venture? I think the PAF personnel must have his vocab mixed up. The J-10A was improved upon with some input from PAF for the J-10B back when we were interested in inducting it. That doesn't make it a Joint Venture though - we didn't put up any money for it.


This news was surface during Musharraf time too. That PAF engineers are working on Chinese Delta wing project. Musharraf made trip to J10 complex.



Mark Sien said:


> There is one scenario where the J-10 could end up joining PAF and that is if additional F-16s just cannot be had. In the medium weight category the PAF already has a solid system (F-16), so it makes sense that it'd build upon the existing infrastructure layout for C/D and A/B by procuring as many used and new airframes as possible.
> 
> But while this is the obvious choice, it is puzzling that PAF hasn't really taken this route. Seems to me there is an actual political hold-up on the U.S side. Sure, let's assume PAF doesn't have the money for new frames or even the funds to upgrade old ones, but why not just procure the frames as is like it did with Jordan? We know PAF has financial issues, but I seriously don't think it'd be as bad as being unable to buy fighters for $10-15 million a unit.
> 
> If the PAF seriously thinks there is a need to keep building up the medium weight category and not perhaps split it more extremely between heavy (Su-35) and light (JF-17) fighters, then it could end up with J-10 (or J-10B). The other option might be the MiG-35, which could have engine commonality with JF-17!



Well, PAF wants J10 , they already did lot of homework for this plane and they won't let it go easily. PAF has put lots of man hours for the development of htis plane. So, TOT is due and plane has lots of room for modification .

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## Last Samuri

Vipers post



> My sources told me from the Pakistani side that don't you worry, either J-10B or the SU-35's will be coming around the SAME time, and with some -16's used with low flying hours on them.





BRAND NEW WARPLANES from both china & Russia

J10 or SU35

Where you finding the $4 billion.

INFACT is there even this much money in Pakistan. itself


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## Viper0011.

Last Samuri said:


> Vipers post
> *
> BRAND NEW WARPLANES from both china & Russia*
> 
> J10 or SU35. Where you finding the $4 billion.
> 
> INFACT is there even this much money in Pakistan. itself



Why do you lie so much and mis-quote posts for your propaganda based benefits???? I never said " brand new planes from both Russia and China". What are you? From some Indian media outlet, focused on JUST sensation and hype so others can "like" your posts? Those people are called "Attention Wh***** " in American English  

Read the post before you respond. And JUST to set the record, Pakistan has over $ 20 billion in her savings account and its growing at an average of .4-.5 billion a month. So $ 4 billion is a piece of cake if they REALLY have to pay cash. But they will easily get loans like India and everyone else.

The Pakistan you knew back in 2012, is not there anymore. The Pakistan today is over her path to be the top 15th economy in the next two decades. A similar journey that India took due to Bill Clinton's help. You guys should put his picture above Nehru and Gandhi as he's really the one who with a single hand (and his Presidential powers), worked very hard and resulted in outsourcing billions of jobs and investments to India.

So you are not where you are because of something special that "India" did or the 'Indian Nation" did. You are there because of the Western investments that went into the Indian system. Similarly, Pakistan has started on that path ALREADY.

In the next 3-5 years, they'll have over a MILLION people ready to start doing outsourcing for Mobile computing platforms. Pakistan has over 110 MILLION young males, ages 16-23 (working age), with 30 years of work life in them. So TRUST ME, Pakistan in the next 20 years, from an ROI's standpoint, has a LOT more return to offer than anyone else. There is a reason why their stock market has been performing in top 5 for the past two consecutive years 

So buying $ 4 - 6 or 8 billion worth of weapons that are usually paid in 3-5 years, is not a big deal. I think the PAF need to make up their mind in terms of if the JFT + -16 is REALLY a great combo that they can let it work, or if they REALLY need other platforms and which ones (J-10 or J-11 or SU-35). This jet issue is really waiting on the PAF's settling on one option. Not because of the money!!

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## Kakaspai

Viper0011. said:


> Why do you lie so much and mis-quote posts for your propaganda based benefits???? I never said " brand new planes from both Russia and China". What are you? From some Indian media outlet, focused on JUST sensation and hype so others can "like" your posts? Those people are called "Attention Wh***** " in American English
> 
> Read the post before you respond. And JUST to set the record, Pakistan has over $ 20 billion in her savings account and its growing at an average of .4-.5 billion a month. So $ 4 billion is a piece of cake if they REALLY have to pay cash. But they will easily get loans like India and everyone else.
> 
> The Pakistan you knew back in 2012, is not there anymore. The Pakistan today is over her path to be the top 15th economy in the next two decades. A similar journey that India took due to Bill Clinton's help. You guys should put his picture above Nehru and Gandhi as he's really the one who with a single hand (and his Presidential powers), worked very hard and resulted in outsourcing billions of jobs and investments to India.
> 
> So you are not where you are because of something special that "India" did or the 'Indian Nation" did. You are there because of the Western investments that went into the Indian system. Similarly, Pakistan has started on that path ALREADY.
> 
> In the next 3-5 years, they'll have over a MILLION people ready to start doing outsourcing for Mobile computing platforms. Pakistan has over 110 MILLION young males, ages 16-23 (working age), with 30 years of work life in them. So TRUST ME, Pakistan in the next 20 years, from an ROI's standpoint, has a LOT more return to offer than anyone else. There is a reason why their stock market has been performing in top 5 for the past two consecutive years
> 
> So buying $ 4 - 6 or 8 billion worth of weapons that are usually paid in 3-5 years, is not a big deal. I think the PAF need to make up their mind in terms of if the JFT + -16 is REALLY a great combo that they can let it work, or if they REALLY need other platforms and which ones (J-10 or J-11 or SU-35). This jet issue is really waiting on the PAF's settling on one option. Not because of the money!!


Sir these indians are still living in denial.they dont have any thing beside saying we don't have cash but in reality they do know its just that they dont want to except it

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## Quwa

Last Samuri said:


> Vipers post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BRAND NEW WARPLANES from both china & Russia
> 
> J10 or SU35
> 
> Where you finding the $4 billion.
> 
> INFACT is there even this much money in Pakistan. itself


We took money from India, that's why your MRCA program fell hard.


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## Last Samuri

Viper

Stop quoting FICTION you sound like a desperate 8 year old .

YOU LOSING CREDIBILITY RAPIDLY




> Pakistan has over $ 20 billion in her savings account and its growing at an average of .4-.5 billion a month. So $ 4 billion is a piece of cake if they REALLY have to pay cash. But they will easily get loans like India and everyone else.
> 
> The Pakistan today is over her path to be the top 15th economy in the next two decades. A similar journey that India took due to Bill Clinton's help. You guys should put his picture above Nehru and Gandhi as he's really the one who with a single hand (and his Presidential powers), worked very hard and resulted in outsourcing billions of jobs and investments to India.


 

Massive industrial GIANTS like india ( compared to your Pakistan) CANNOT ADD $4 billion forex a MONTH consistently.

PAKISTAN HAS A FORX to balance your import bill and BELIEVE ME $15 - 16 BILLION is peanuts.

*LOOK AT THIS VIPER PAKISTAN 17 PLACES BELOW BANGLADESH IN FOREX RESERVES 






Nigeria 28,335 Jun 2015[53]

52



Bangladesh 26,175 Aug 2015[54]

66



Pakistan 15,692 June 2015*


Let me also SHOW l you GROWTH RATES

South Asia

India & Banglasdesh will out grow you by double in next three years alone

SO

I ASK AGAIN where you getting the $ 4 billion from

WHICH IS SAME AS INDIA SPENDING $40 BILLION on 40 planes

impossible numbers for Pakistan

Viper your Future predictions are so out of sink with what we see happening in Pakistan.

Come back down to reality

12 months ago Pakistan was down graded by moodys for missing interest payments on a IMF loan.

CHINA WILL GIVE YOU SOFT LOANS FOR J10

Russia no chance for SU35

*Guarnteed PAF wil acquire used F16 again on the cheap*


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## abdulbarijan

Last Samuri said:


> Viper
> 
> Stop quoting FICTION you sound like a desperate 8 year old .
> 
> YOU LOSING CREDIBILITY RAPIDLY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Massive industrial GIANTS like india ( compared to your Pakistan) CANNOT ADD $4 billion forex a MONTH consistently.
> 
> PAKISTAN HAS A FORX to balance your import bill and BELIEVE ME $15 - 16 BILLION is peanuts.
> 
> *LOOK AT THIS VIPER PAKISTAN 17 PLACES BELOW BANGLADESH IN FOREX RESERVES
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nigeria 28,335 Jun 2015[53]
> 
> 52
> 
> 
> 
> Bangladesh 26,175 Aug 2015[54]
> 
> 66
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan 15,692 June 2015*
> 
> 
> Let me also SHOW l you GROWTH RATES
> 
> South Asia
> 
> India & Banglasdesh will out grow you by double in next three years alone
> 
> SO
> 
> I ASK AGAIN where you getting the $ 4 billion from
> 
> WHICH IS SAME AS INDIA SPENDING $40 BILLION on 40 planes
> 
> impossible numbers for Pakistan
> 
> Viper your Future predictions are so out of sink with what we see happening in Pakistan.
> 
> Come back down to reality
> 
> 12 months ago Pakistan was down graded by moodys for missing interest payments on a IMF loan.
> 
> CHINA WILL GIVE YOU SOFT LOANS FOR J10
> 
> Russia no chance for SU35
> 
> *Guarnteed PAF wil acquire used F16 again on the cheap*



If only they had told your smarty pants the concept of 'decimals' maybe you'd not be out here making a complete fool out of yourself ...

As far as the "payments" conspiracy goes ... you do know the defense of CPEC is the need of every nation that will use it ... that also includes Russia & China ... so don't try to convince yourself that such a transaction can never happen ... As long is there is an underlying need like the one with CPEC ... there will be talk of such and such solutions .... whether it is put in to play is another thing .. however lets not dismiss it altogether simply because YOU don't think Pakistan can afford it ...

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## majid mehmood

guys let this be clear jf 17 will replace mirages and f7 
while j 10 will replace f16 in far future so we should expect j10c
while su 35 deal is cooking


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## CHI RULES

Muhammad Omar said:


> I know that.... But the thing that J-10 is a joint venture is shocking one for me..
> 
> Wish we can just buy 100 of em  and Su-35 to replace Mirages.....
> 
> 100 J-10
> 76 F-16
> 150 JF-17
> 30 JF + 18 Su-35 for Navy
> 18 Su-25 for PAF
> 
> we have a Damn good Airforce
> some dreams



I differ ur ideal position minutely as su25 FOR paf not suitable, further we should get 36 SU35 for PN as permanent solution for next two decades or more usage with future upgardes. We should induct J11D or any other available Chinese variant of SU27 family for fighter bomber role say up to two squadrons and retire Mirrages specified for strike role say in next 5 to 8 Years.

With deal of SU35 Pak amy open closed gate to get capable russian jet engine may be used in future platforms like J31,JF17 and expected J11 variant if inducted.


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## ziaulislam

Last Samuri said:


> Viper
> 
> Stop quoting FICTION you sound like a desperate 8 year old .
> 
> YOU LOSING CREDIBILITY RAPIDLY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Massive industrial GIANTS like india ( compared to your Pakistan) CANNOT ADD $4 billion forex a MONTH consistently.
> 
> PAKISTAN HAS A FORX to balance your import bill and BELIEVE ME $15 - 16 BILLION is peanuts.
> 
> *LOOK AT THIS VIPER PAKISTAN 17 PLACES BELOW BANGLADESH IN FOREX RESERVES
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nigeria 28,335 Jun 2015[53]
> 
> 52
> 
> 
> 
> Bangladesh 26,175 Aug 2015[54]
> 
> 66
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan 15,692 June 2015*
> 
> 
> Let me also SHOW l you GROWTH RATES
> 
> South Asia
> 
> India & Banglasdesh will out grow you by double in next three years alone
> 
> SO
> 
> I ASK AGAIN where you getting the $ 4 billion from
> 
> WHICH IS SAME AS INDIA SPENDING $40 BILLION on 40 planes
> 
> impossible numbers for Pakistan
> 
> Viper your Future predictions are so out of sink with what we see happening in Pakistan.
> 
> Come back down to reality
> 
> 12 months ago Pakistan was down graded by moodys for missing interest payments on a IMF loan.
> 
> CHINA WILL GIVE YOU SOFT LOANS FOR J10
> 
> Russia no chance for SU35
> 
> *Guarnteed PAF wil acquire used F16 again on the cheap*



i agree we dont have money..look at india a 10x bigger economy cant cough upt 4 billion for rafale!
idiot, forex reserves means nothing, its the GDP


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## aliyusuf

abdulbarijan said:


> If only they had told your smarty pants the concept of 'decimals' maybe you'd not be out here making a complete fool out of yourself ...




Well that really ought to shut him up for a while.
I mean. what a faux pas, too busy making wise cracks to actually realize and comprehend what was posted by @Viper0011.


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## Muhammad Omar

CHI RULES said:


> I differ ur ideal position minutely as su25 FOR paf not suitable, further we should get 36 SU35 for PN as permanent solution for next two decades or more usage with future upgardes. We should induct J11D or any other available Chinese variant of SU27 family for fighter bomber role say up to two squadrons and retire Mirrages specified for strike role say in next 5 to 8 Years.
> 
> With deal of SU35 Pak amy open closed gate to get capable russian jet engine may be used in future platforms like J31,JF17 and expected J11 variant if inducted.



sorry it was type mistake It's not Su-25 but it's Su-35


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Muhammad Omar said:


> I know that.... But the thing that J-10 is a joint venture is shocking one for me..
> 
> Wish we can just buy 100 of em  and Su-35 to replace Mirages.....
> 
> 100 J-10
> 76 F-16
> 150 JF-17
> 30 JF + 18 Su-35 for Navy
> 18 Su-25 for PAF
> 
> we have a Damn good Airforce
> some dreams



If j-10's do come then they would also be part of the navy. What exactly is PAF thinking is a million dollar question.
Still what can be seen from the recent developments is that some how Pakistan is trying to overcome the Western reliance by looking towards the Chinese and Russians. It can be possible that Pakistan is no longer considering France as a reliable partner (but one can not be 100% sure) hence they are moving towards Russia. If USA some how manages to sell 24 F-16's still PAF has to fulfil many other slots emptied by the A-5's FT-6 and F-7 along with replacing Mirrage's.

As far as PN is concerned it might opt for J-10's as well as increase the numbers of SU-35's along with the 30 JF-17's. That would really be a force to reckoned with.

As far as the news regarding JV of J-10 is concerned...Pakistan was working on this project from day one but some how PAF convinced the Chinese to continue with the JF-17 product so that in case China requires additional fire power or a point to point defence platform. J-10 was hence not in the lime light because JF-17 was being covered a brilliant tactic don't you think.

The numbers of aircraft would be increased to 450-500 combat aircraft and around 100-150 for the Navy considering the threat on both EAST and WEST Frontiers.

Many more surprises could pop out now and then... 



Muhammad Omar said:


> sorry it was type mistake It's not Su-25 but it's Su-35


have you gone through this

Meet Europe's deadliest strike plane, the Su-34 Fullback

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## aghias

If Pakistan gets ahold of these planes, it will be very good for their security and will significantly improve their air force.


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## Donatello

Viper0011. said:


> My sources told me from the Pakistani side that don't you worry, either J-10B or the SU-35's will be coming around the SAME time, and with some -16's used with low flying hours on them.



That does not make any sense, J-10 Medium weight fighter, Su35 Heavy, long range strike aircraft.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> That does not make any sense, J-10 Medium weight fighter, Su35 Heavy, long range strike aircraft.


PAF does require an other Medium range fighter to replace the Mirages. This was supposed to by getting some more F-16 but that is a problem.


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## New World

Muhammad Omar said:


> 18 Su-25 for PAF


and why you want this 3rd gen old jet at a time when paf is retiring those 3rd gen jets??

EDIT: 


Muhammad Omar said:


> sorry it was type mistake It's not Su-25 but it's Su-35


ok..got your point..


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## Quwa

Donatello said:


> That does not make any sense, J-10 Medium weight fighter, Su35 Heavy, long range strike aircraft.


To PAF what purpose would medium weight fighters serve if Su-35s are inducted (in healthy numbers)? I think the Su-35s would be used for strike and long-endurance loiter operations, and that would happen infrequently. The JF-17s (in very healthy numbers) could be used to maintain frequent sorties and engage in operations along the border on a very frequent basis. Basically the JF-17 would allow the PAF to maintain pressure.

What purpose would medium weight fighters serve in such a dynamic?

I can see the rationale of having a very good air defence platform that could be deployed quickly and easily maintained in times of conflict, and the F-16 fits that bill perfectly. Imagine an F-16 squadron deployed to each of the FOBs along the east, with AMRAAM and hopefully AIM-9X or IRIS-T one day, they would serve splendidly. But does the non-availability of additional F-16s warrant the need to induct another medium weight fighter IF Su-35 is bought?


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## aliyusuf

If the Su-35 comes in, then there shouldn't be any immediate need for the J-10B.

But once the IAF Su-30MKI fleet undergoes the Super Sukhoi upgrade/MLU and perhaps also Rafales eventually get inducted in the near future ... we may see that our non-AESA F-16s at a serious disadvantage. Which would still be a very significant element in our striking force comprising of 4 Sqd. So, unless we can get an AESA upgrade for the F-16 or get Su-35s in good numbers i.e. at least 6 squadrons (unlikely ... too costly to operate even if we somehow manage the purchasing cost), the PAF may find itself facing a problem.

Speculatively JF-17s future AESA radar may not turn out be as capable as we may want. Due to the fact that AESA requires lots of power and a future uprated engine replacement for the future block may not be enough to power both the added payload requirements and to provide the requisite power for a powerful AESA properly. Also does the JF-17 nose cone provide enough room for a sizeable AESA with decent number of TR-Modules? So the result may be a compromise in installing an ASEA with lesser power requirements and TR-Modules .. hence less capable.

Will we be able to induct FC-31/J-31 (when its ready) in enough numbers to offset the above mentioned scenario? Not to begin with, again, too costly.

*If such is the scenario*, I see a good likelihood for the J-10B or a later version being inducted as well.


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## Donatello

Mark Sien said:


> To PAF what purpose would medium weight fighters serve if Su-35s are inducted (in healthy numbers)? I think the Su-35s would be used for strike and long-endurance loiter operations, and that would happen infrequently. The JF-17s (in very healthy numbers) could be used to maintain frequent sorties and engage in operations along the border on a very frequent basis. Basically the JF-17 would allow the PAF to maintain pressure.
> 
> What purpose would medium weight fighters serve in such a dynamic?
> 
> I can see the rationale of having a very good air defence platform that could be deployed quickly and easily maintained in times of conflict, and the F-16 fits that bill perfectly. Imagine an F-16 squadron deployed to each of the FOBs along the east, with AMRAAM and hopefully AIM-9X or IRIS-T one day, they would serve splendidly. But does the non-availability of additional F-16s warrant the need to induct another medium weight fighter IF Su-35 is bought?



No what i meant was, Is PAF looking to induct BOTH Su35 AND J-10 or just one them. Because these aircraft are not interchangeable.

Medium fleet can be built around F-16s, 100 of them or beyond are enough. We can have 150-200 JF-17s. Rest, 50 or so can be SU35.

That's a 300-350 combat aircraft fleet all BVR equipped. No way India can have any sort of domination over Pakistan.

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## BDforever

Donatello said:


> No what i meant was, Is PAF looking to induct BOTH Su35 AND J-10 or just one them. Because these aircraft are not interchangeable.
> 
> Medium fleet can be built around F-16s, 100 of them or beyond are enough. We can have 150-200 JF-17s. Rest, 50 or so can be SU35.
> 
> That's a 300-350 combat aircraft fleet all BVR equipped. No way India can have any sort of domination over Pakistan.


Go for Su35, that is beast  ---> Su30MKI be like


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## princefaisal

Go for:

1) 70 Su-35s (18 for navy, 36 for airforce & 16 for CCS)
2) 100 J-10C for replacement of F-7s
3) 150 JF-17 for replacement of Mirage aircrafts
4) acquire more used F-16s to reach the quantity to 100

In this way Pakistan will have 420 4th+ generation aircrafts and still have room for 80 5th generation aircrafts.

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## CHI RULES

aliyusuf said:


> If the Su-35 comes in, then there shouldn't be any immediate need for the J-10B.
> 
> But once the IAF Su-30MKI fleet undergoes the Super Sukhoi upgrade/MLU and perhaps also Rafales eventually get inducted in the near future ... we may see that our non-AESA F-16s at a serious disadvantage. Which would still be a very significant element in our striking force comprising of 4 Sqd. So, unless we can get an AESA upgrade for the F-16 or get Su-35s in good numbers i.e. at least 6 squadrons (unlikely ... too costly to operate even if we somehow manage the purchasing cost), the PAF may find itself facing a problem.
> 
> Speculatively JF-17s future AESA radar may not turn out be as capable as we may want. Due to the fact that AESA requires lots of power and a future uprated engine replacement for the future block may not be enough to power both the added payload requirements and to provide the requisite power for a powerful AESA properly. Also does the JF-17 nose cone provide enough room for a sizeable AESA with decent number of TR-Modules? So the result may be a compromise in installing an ASEA with lesser power requirements and TR-Modules .. hence less capable.
> 
> Will we be able to induct FC-31/J-31 (when its ready) in enough numbers to offset the above mentioned scenario? Not to begin with, again, too costly.
> 
> *If such is the scenario*, I see a good likelihood for the J-10B or a later version being inducted as well.



Dear I want to ask just to consolidate ur point that do our MLU F16 are capable to get AESA radar along with capable IRST pod. However it is obvious that lighter Jets may only get AESA with relatively lesser range however shall suffice their role as defensive platforms. Similarly for offence we may Use J31 in near future when available along with SU35 or any Chinese J11 series fighter jets combination. (However I assume that SU35 if obtained may not be more than two squadrons i.e 36 and will be used for naval roles). For PAF J11 series Jets will be more fesibile considering number of sorties and continuous availability of spares, further we have clear clauses in agreement for spares availability with Russia during war even with India.
(So we may not face situation like Kargil war when spares were not available for F16s due US embargo.)


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## Donatello

princefaisal said:


> Go for:
> 
> 1) 70 Su-35s (18 for navy, 36 for airforce & 16 for CCS)
> 2) 100 J-10C for replacement of F-7s
> 3) 150 JF-17 for replacement of Mirage aircrafts
> 4) acquire more used F-16s to reach the quantity to 100
> 
> In this way Pakistan will have 420 4th+ generation aircrafts and still have room for 80 5th generation aircrafts.



Your highness Prince Faisal, is King World Bank going to fund all these?


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## princefaisal

Donatello said:


> Your highness Prince Faisal, is King World Bank going to fund all these?


It will not be a one year induction program. So stay calm as it can be done in phases from 5 to 7 years.


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## aliyusuf

CHI RULES said:


> Dear I want to ask just to consolidate ur point that do our MLU F16 are capable to get AESA radar along with capable IRST pod.



APG-83 (Scalable Agile Beam Radar) SABR AESA and Legion IRST Pods are available. Yes they will work on the MLU F-16s of PAF as well. These would help our vipers maintain their edge. But I don't know whether they would be allowed for the PAF.



CHI RULES said:


> However it is obvious that lighter Jets may only get AESA with relatively lesser range however shall suffice their role as defensive platforms. Similarly for offence we may Use J31 in near future when available along with SU35 or any Chinese J11 series fighter jets combination. (However I assume that SU35 if obtained may not be more than two squadrons i.e 36 and will be used for naval roles). For PAF J11 series Jets will be more fesibile considering number of sorties and continuous availability of spares, further we have clear clauses in agreement for spares availability with Russia during war even with India.
> (So we may not face situation like Kargil war when spares were not available for F16s due US embargo.)



Like I said ... we won't be getting the heavies (SU-35 or J-11D/J-16) and the FC-31 more than 2 or 3 squadrons each. They will be constituting the high-end.

If we get the AESA upgrades then the Viper would be forming mid-end and the JF-17 will be constituting the mid-to-lo-end.

But the mid-end might also be comprised of FC-20/J-10B or later if the F-16s don't get the AESA upgrade. In that case the Vipers might get relegated to the mid-to-lo-end along with the Thunders.

We can only afford to operate a limited number of total high-end fighters i.e. 4 to 5 Sqd of FC-31 and (SU-35 or J-11D/J-16).

We *may* eventually need more than 4 Sqd of FC-20s stage wise induction from 2023 and onwards so that the MLU's can be easily be started to be phased out from 2030 without any drop in fleet effectiveness.

Keep in mind that somewhere between 2023 to 2025 the IAF would be having 300+ AESA equipped MKIs and Rafales.

But this is just my opinion.


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## mikkix

I think pakistan should buy 200 su-35 from russia on 50% discount. Pakistan should also buy F-35 from usa arou d 100and pay usa through imf.
Pakistan should also go for j-10 c from china on soft loan.
If saudis will fund pakistan then they should buy rafael around 100. Euro fighter is a good plane and pakistan have very good connection with england so they can also buy it around 100 and pay them through overseas remittances. 
After that pakistan will IN SHA ALLAH challenge Usa and israel and endia simultaneously.

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## Muhammad Omar

mikkix said:


> I think pakistan should buy 200 su-35 from russia on 50% discount. Pakistan should also buy F-35 from usa arou d 100and pay usa through imf.
> Pakistan should also go for j-10 c from china on soft loan.
> If saudis will fund pakistan then they should buy rafael around 100. Euro fighter is a good plane and pakistan have very good connection with england so they can also buy it around 100 and pay them through overseas remittances.
> After that pakistan will IN SHA ALLAH challenge Usa and israel and endia simultaneously.




Mere Bhai kuch p k aai ho ya wese hi Demag me yeh sb aagya? 

Keyboard mil gya to kya kuch bhi post kro gai.... Pani pee mera bhai

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## Quwa

Donatello said:


> No what i meant was, Is PAF looking to induct BOTH Su35 AND J-10 or just one them. Because these aircraft are not interchangeable.
> 
> Medium fleet can be built around F-16s, 100 of them or beyond are enough. We can have 150-200 JF-17s. Rest, 50 or so can be SU35.
> 
> That's a 300-350 combat aircraft fleet all BVR equipped. No way India can have any sort of domination over Pakistan.


Funny that's my projection as well. We have 76 F-16s right now, if PAF can acquire another 36 (I.e. 2 squadrons, ideally new), it'd be at its original fleet plan pre-Pressler. As for Su-35s (or heavy twin-engine jets in general), I expect the plan would be around 40 (2 active squadrons plus some for CCS). The rest, I.e. 150-200, would be JF-17.


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## Viper0011.

Last Samuri said:


> Viper
> 
> Stop quoting FICTION you sound like a desperate 8 year old .
> 
> YOU LOSING CREDIBILITY RAPIDLY. Massive industrial GIANTS like india ( compared to your Pakistan) CANNOT ADD $4 billion forex a MONTH consistently.
> 
> PAKISTAN HAS A FORX to balance your import bill and BELIEVE ME $15 - 16 BILLION is peanuts.
> 
> *LOOK AT THIS VIPER PAKISTAN 17 PLACES BELOW BANGLADESH IN FOREX RESERVES
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nigeria 28,335 Jun 2015[53]
> 
> 52
> 
> 
> 
> Bangladesh 26,175 Aug 2015[54]
> 
> 66
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan 15,692 June 2015*
> 
> *Guarnteed PAF wil acquire used F16 again on the cheap*



I am losing credibility???? LOL, I am like the US Army on here and I strongly believe our Army's slogan "An Army of One ". I am An Army of One vs. 1.2 Billion Indian people on here and I love it. My dad raised a very brave and courageous son .


What was the reason you decided to waste some of your life and wrote me that hateful post above??? I didn't see any point.....Bangladesh has been a KNOWN exporter for DECADES for their Yarn and Textile stuff. Of course they are ahead of Pakistan in terms of exports and the GDP. And their Textile exports even beat India  ....OUCH, what happened there??? Got beat up in Textile exports by the Bangladeshi's??? I am sorry. 1.2 BILLION people couldn't beat a 10 times smaller county's exports in Textile?? Sorry man, you guys got work to do. Go focus on these real issues instead of just bashing on here!!!

Now let's talk about it. Pakistan was mismanaged through military and all in term of power grab, Marshall laws and all, so naturally its behind. And it doesn't produce Cotton and Yarn like Bangladesh does. So yes at this time, it is slightly behind. BUT.....Pakistan is the 6th largest population with over 200 million people, and 33rd largest country area wise. Bangladesh on the other hand is 8th largest population around 160 million and 92nd largest country area wise.

Use your head if it can do anything outside of Indian maths and tell me who's going to grow with the current standards, technology and all? Pakistan will beat Bangladesh and even Malaysia in the long run. It has MUCH more to offer and has much stronger relationships with the Chinese, the ME and now the Russians that the trade and growth avenues are insanely large. Add the Western organizations who've put Pakistan in the newly released economic forecast (BRICS +11) = for this forum's context (BRICS + P).

So if the top economy houses, and majority of the super powers have put their bets and money on Pakistan's economy, fools like you and a few others, have NO representation in this case. So you can continue to cry. Before you know it, you'll be competing with Pakistan for IT and Software Development work. You can mark my words and come back here in the next 5-7 years. You'll be ashamed of your prediction and depressed reading how much BPO stuff is going to Pakistan!!!



Last: Older -16's.....they will STILL take out your SU-30's!!!! Mark my words. Even if the Pakistanis get SU-35's, the biggest beating that the SU-30 will take in ANY future war, it will be by the VIPER (and SAID by the VIPER too)!!!! If you can prove me wrong on this one, I will NEVER write on this forum and will de-activate my account. If I win (which I know I will as I've seen the performances myself and comparisons), all 1.2 billion Indians will have to leave this forum so we can ALL peacefully live and post stuff!!! Let me know if I have a MAN to MAN deal 

Sorry, forgot. But do let me know if I have an agreement. We'll execute the contract with ONLY one man, i.e. myself. The rest "whatever" is fine!!

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## mikkix

I think pakistan should buy 200 su-35 from russia on 50% discount. Pakistan should also buy F-35 from usa arou d 100and pay usa through imf.
Pakistan should also go for j-10 c from china on soft loan.
If saudis will fund pakistan then they should buy rafael around 100. Euro fighter is a good plane and pakistan have very good connection with england so they can also buy it around 100 and pay them through overseas remittances.
After that pakistan will IN SHA ALLAH challenge Usa and israel and endia simultaneously.


Muhammad Omar said:


> Mere Bhai kuch p k aai ho ya wese hi Demag me yeh sb aagya?
> 
> Keyboard mil gya to kya kuch bhi post kro gai.... Pani pee mera bhai


 Mere bhai peene ki zaroorat nahi pari. Masha allah apne bhaiyon ke comment se hi itna nasha char gaya hai. Pese hain nahi plane kie batein chal rahi hain. Endia se competition is decade mai bekar hai. Next decade ka socho ke kese beat karna hai endia ko. Time to built economy and mame sure that in sha allah we will come harder later to challenge opponents. Time is asset and resource so utilize it to work in future.


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## HimalyanKingdom

Su 35 is surely a misinfo, J10 may be the reality.

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## dy1022



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## batmannow

Donatello said:


> Your highness Prince Faisal, is King World Bank going to fund all these?


Did ever any of our F-16S & THUNDERS were funded by WB ?
Or even our nuclear assets ?
If we were making all that from loans & fundings ? No one ?
by hook or crook we made that all up !
We , still made thunders & our nuclear assests our missiles by our selfs ?
Kid is right !
don't unse$atimate us ?
& we can go for the fighters configration as he was suggesting ?
Even if we can reduce the numbers , but again thats what the right path ?
J-10 bs ,SU-35s & thunders will be the next horses for the big & long air marathon ?



HimalyanKingdom said:


> Su 35 is surely a misinfo, J10 may be the reality.


Its surly a misifo to all Indians , which was announced by RUSSIAN DFM ?lolzz



dy1022 said:


>


Looks better then F-16S ?



Donatello said:


> No what i meant was, Is PAF looking to induct BOTH Su35 AND J-10 or just one them. Because these aircraft are not interchangeable.
> 
> Medium fleet can be built around F-16s, 100 of them or beyond are enough. We can have 150-200 JF-17s. Rest, 50 or so can be SU35.
> 
> That's a 300-350 combat aircraft fleet all BVR equipped. No way India can have any sort of domination over Pakistan.


Pakistan needs to develop , a PNAF too ?
So 350 PAF & 120 TO 140 PNAF , fighters can become a lighting force , challenging not only India but , also throwing the challenge any other force , thinking to test us ?


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## black-hawk_101

I think PAF should make up a deal of 50 J-10B/J-10BS with China and sell out 18 F-16s Block-52s with USA permission to Greece/Egypt/Poland or any other operators.

"Poland took delivery of its first F-16C Block 52+ aircraft on 15 September 2006. The "Poland Peace Sky program" includes 36 F-16Cs and 12 F-16Ds. All 48 aircraft were delivered in 2008.[9] The Hellenic Air Force took delivery of its first F-16C Block 52+ aircraft on 22 May 2008. The total Greek order is for 20 F-16Cs and 10 F-16Ds. The remaining 26 aircraft should be delivered by March 2010.[10] The Israeli F-16I and its Singapore equivalent variant are based on the block 52+ aircraft. In March 2010 it was announced that the Egyptian Air Force would purchase 20 Block 52 aircraft (16 F-16Cs and 4 F-16Ds), the first of which arrived for testing in April 2012[1"

Source: General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

150 JF-17s
100 J-10Bs-J-10Cs
100 F-16s
xxx J-31s replacing F-16s from 2020.

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## Neutron

We need 5th generation fighters

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## Muhammad Omar

Neutron said:


> We need 5th generation fighters



What do you know... None is ready yet except for F-22 and F-35


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## black-hawk_101

So any news PAF getting 50 J-10BS from China?


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## dy1022

J10-B with 140KN+ WS-10B

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## AFlover

dy1022 said:


> J10-B with 140KN+ WS-10B



Is it really true value engine power or just a wish
I hope China had completed the testing and evaluation.
With this engine power it's just umatched


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## ChineseTiger1986

AFlover said:


> Is it really true value engine power or just a wish
> I hope China had completed the testing and evaluation.
> With this engine power it's just umatched



It is actually close to 140kN, since China has just showed the specs during the aviation expo.

If necessary, China will export the J-10C with the WS-10B engine.

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## AFlover

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is actually close to 140kN, since China has just showed the specs during the aviation expo.
> 
> If necessary, China will export the J-10C with the WS-10B engine.
> 
> View attachment 264993


That's grea! No doubt J10C is a great fighter not less than EF and Rafale in any way.
With the supply issues being discussed about SU35 on other threads, it is better to induct this A/C as it surves the purpose of dealing with migs, M2K, and SUs and there is no issues with the supply parts in critical times even. PAF can co-produce as well. 
It will add AESA and IRST plus additional hard points. I don't think PAF should test US and Russia in critical times again. 
Economy projects are fine with these countries. But relying in terms of Airforce is dangerous.

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## black-hawk_101

I am not sure about SU-35 but I think PAF can get in any time about:
50 J-10A/AS
50 J-10B/BS

This will going to replace the F-7P and F-7PGs even faster from the fleet. F-7PG has a customer like BAF.

But I think PAF will be more interested in replacing the F-16s from Sargodha with J-10s from China and these might come to masroor.


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## New World

black-hawk_101 said:


> I am not sure about SU-35 but I think PAF can get in any time about:
> 50* J-10A/AS*
> 50 J-10B/BS
> 
> This will going to replace the F-7P and F-7PGs even faster from the fleet. F-7PG has a customer like BAF.
> 
> But I think PAF will be more interested in replacing the F-16s from Sargodha with J-10s from China and these might come to masroor.


what did J-10A has to do when we have JF-17 blk2.. J-10A is a interceptor J-10B is multirole fighter and J-10C is advanced from J-10B and in some features(like IRST, AESA etc) it is also advanced from F-16 blk52


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## Akasa

From our current pool of information, we can conclude the following regarding WS-10 engines:

1. The WS-10 engines come in *blocks* (i.e. A, B, etc). The first variant (without a lettered designation) apparently did not enter production.
2. The WS-10A produces roughly 132 kN of thrust and powers the *J-10B* *prototypes*, one *J-11A* prototype, *J-11B/BS*, early prototypes of the *J-15*, and possibly the *J-16*.
3. The WS-10B produces roughly 137-140 kN of thrust, incorporates FADEC, and will power the *J-11D*, *J-10C*, possibly the *J-15S*, and possibly later batches of the *J-16*.
4. The non-afterburning variant, the 137 kN WS-20, will power the *Y-20* transport as well as potential future bomber aircraft.

The fact that the J-10B (and soon J-10C) has been tested with the WS-10 implicates that the J-10B/C is ready for export. The fact that the WS-10B was used to test prototypes of the J-11D and J-15S is testament to its maturity within the realm of Chinese turbofan engines.

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## dy1022

Under mass production right now!

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## black-hawk_101

dy1022 said:


> Under mass production right now!


I hope that PAF will get:
50 J-10A from PLAAF fleet may be, if out of production
50 J-10B till 2020
50 J-10C till 2025 or earlier
I am sure this will allow the PAF to replace the F-16s from Sarghoda and other northern bases and send these F-16s to Southern bases along with Erieye.


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## Cool_Soldier

Hope and wishes are always far from reality.As its will take many years for 5th generation planes to be operational, there is chance that PAF will try to buy economical and matured version of J10 B/C to fill fill gap of retire old planes.Definitely we will be having combination of 4, 4.5 and 5th generation planes to meet future challenges.

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## The Eagle

Cool_Soldier said:


> Hope and wishes are always far from reality.As its will take many years for 5th generation planes to be operational, there is chance that PAF will try to buy economical and matured version of J10 B/C to fill fill gap of retire old planes.Definitely we will be having combination of 4, 4.5 and 5th generation planes to meet future challenges.



Just asking for information why not J11-D or j10 is better than J11-D then in which area?


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## nadeemkhan110

The Eagle said:


> Just asking for information why not J11-D or j10 is better than J11-D then in which area?


we need dual engine jet like j11,su-35 or J-31 to defend our sea





j-10 is almost like jf-17


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## aliyusuf

nadeemkhan110 said:


> we need dual engine jet like j11,su-35 or J-31 to defend our sea .... j-10 is almost like jf-17



J-10B is superior to the proposed AESA equipped JF-17 Block-III on the following aspects ...

Much more powerful AESA (due to greater number of TR-Modules)
EOTS
Super Maneuverability
Weapons load
RCS lowering measures
On the other hand, apart from maneuverability and lesser cost of acquisition and operational cost, J-11D is a much better bet than J-10B.

However any gap in maneuverability can be offset to a great extent by an HMD / HOBS WVRAAM combo.

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## Cool_Soldier

J11D is twin engine and best suited in naval war scenarios.


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## New World

The Eagle said:


> Just asking for information why not J11-D or j10 is better than J11-D then in which area?



J-11D is far superior and advanced from J10B, 
J-11 is the copy of Russian Flankers and china has not right to export them until and unless Russians allow them..


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## The Eagle

Cool_Soldier said:


> J11D is twin engine and best suited in naval war scenarios.





New World said:


> J-11D is far superior and advanced from J10B,
> J-11 is the copy of Russian Flankers and china has not right to export them until and unless Russians allow them..


Hmmm.... got it.... so also apart from Naval requirement twin engines are leading edge as per current scenario and moreover J11-D is far better option keeping in view support to Naval as well as a long range twin engine fighter with better gadgets and thrust power. My opinion


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## The Eagle

I am of the opinion that as far as single engine is concerned so we have JFT programme which growing day by day with full potential so J 10 wouldn't be effective as much as J11-D.


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## aliyusuf

The Eagle said:


> I am of the opinion that as far as single engine is concerned so we have JFT programme which growing day by day with full potential so J 10 wouldn't be effective as much as J11-D.



Each has its own role to play. It's a Hi-Mid-Lo mix. Currently F-16s make up the Hi-Tier, JF-17 the Mid-Tier and the legacy fighters make up the Lo-Tier.

In the future Pakistan may opt to make up the Hi-Tier Twin-Engined Flankers and eventually the 5th-Gen fighter. The F-16 and the JFT-Block-III would make up the Mid-Tier and the rest of the JFT would make up the numbers with a decent punch.

The Hi-Tier fighters cannot be too many in numbers due to their high cost of acquisition and operation. That is why a potent Mid-Tier and decent Lo-Tier is necessary to make up the fleet numbers and collective strength.

Then, also factor in the scenario, sometime between 2023 to 25, we will be facing 300+ AESA upgraded Su-30MKIs, Rafale and maybe even FGFA. In such a scenario a handful of Hi-Tier and some AESA JFT would find it an uphil task to ward off this threat. Our Vipers would be hard pressed to fulfill its missions and role with the current PD Radar.

So if we get an AESA upgrade for our Viper fleet then OK. Else, we may be forced to induct J-10B/C to make up the potent Mid-Tier.

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## The Eagle

aliyusuf said:


> Each has its own role to play. It's a Hi-Mid-Lo mix. Currently F-16s make up the Hi-Tier, JF-17 the Mid-Tier and the legacy fighters make up the Lo-Tier.
> 
> In the future Pakistan may opt to make up the Hi-Tier Twin-Engined Flankers and eventually the 5th-Gen fighter. The F-16 and the JFT-Block-III would make up the Mid-Tier and the rest of the JFT would make up the numbers with a decent punch.
> 
> The Hi-Tier fighters cannot be too many in numbers due to their high cost of acquisition and operation. That is why a potent Mid-Tier and decent Lo-Tier is necessary to make up the fleet numbers and collective strength.
> 
> Then, also factor in the scenario, sometime between 2023 to 25, we will be facing 300+ AESA upgraded Su-30MKIs, Rafale and maybe even FGFA. In such a scenario a handful of Hi-Tier and some AESA JFT would find it an uphil task to ward off this threat. Our Vipers would be hard pressed to fulfill its missions and role with the current PD Radar.
> 
> So if we get an AESA upgrade for our Viper fleet then OK. Else, we may be forced to induct J-10B/C to make up the potent Mid-Tier.


What about hi-tier? Definitely JFT programme will b highly effective at the time of AESA upgrade situation so during that period if so then J11-D isn't the good choice?


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## aliyusuf

The Eagle said:


> What about hi-tier? Definitely JFT programme will b highly effective at the time of AESA upgrade situation so during that period if so then J11-D isn't the good choice?



Yes it or SU-35 (should it be inducted) will be a good choice. If you read my post then you would see that is exactly what I am saying.

But just by itself won't be enough post 2023-25 period, even with 5th-Gen fighter alongside it. We would need a strong mid tier too. F-16 won't be enough to make that mid tier strong enough without AESA.

The JFT-Block-III would be a very good supplement to the mid tier but not the main course for it. Think in terms of post 2023-25. AESA will be beginning to become as common as PD Radar today. Then, just having AESA won't be enough. It will be more about how capable that AESA in comparison to the adversary who may come at us with 300-350 plus AESA equipped fighters. By that time even the Tejas will be in good numbers with AESA.


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## The Eagle

aliyusuf said:


> Yes it or SU-35 (should it be inducted) will be a good choice. If you read my post then you would see that is exactly what I am saying.
> 
> But just by itself won't be enough post 2023-25 period, even with 5th-Gen fighter alongside it. We would need a strong mid tier too. F-16 won't be enough to make that mid tier strong enough without AESA.
> 
> The JFT-Block-III would be a very good supplement to the mid tier but not the main course for it. Think in terms of post 2023-25. AESA will be beginning to become as common as PD Radar today. Then, just having AESA won't be enough. It will be more about how capable that AESA in comparison to the adversary who may come at us with 300-350 plus AESA equipped fighters. By that time even the Tejas will be in good numbers with AESA.


Hmmm mm. ... yes got your point and that's the fact indeed that more changes will b made till the then techs and I m sure that PAF knows well how and what to use or take alongside. Though about SU I have been going through threads and opinions and as per my low knowledge came to know that SU would be more costly then J11-D but PAF knows well in the end. China supplies J11-D and in the mean time after filling the gap would have been working on fifth.


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## The Eagle

And F16s and JFT will doing their task well in their grade with fully updated technology


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## MastanKhan

Have these pictures been posted













China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan | Page 43

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## Basel

Donatello said:


> No what i meant was, Is PAF looking to induct BOTH Su35 AND J-10 or just one them. Because these aircraft are not interchangeable.
> 
> Medium fleet can be built around F-16s, 100 of them or beyond are enough. We can have 150-200 JF-17s. Rest, 50 or so can be SU35.
> 
> That's a 300-350 combat aircraft fleet all BVR equipped. No way India can have any sort of domination over Pakistan.



You know Pakistan can not afford both at a same time.

If you prefer interchangeable stuff then purchasing Mig-35s with TOT will suits Pakistan because JFT and Mig-35 can share many things including engine.


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## MastanKhan

Basel said:


> You know Pakistan can not afford both at a same time.
> 
> If you prefer interchangeable stuff then purchasing Mig-35s with TOT will suits Pakistan because JFT and Mig-35 can share many things including engine.



Hi,

But not the weapons.


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## Basel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> But not the weapons.



Yes weapons too can be integrated, because both have similar bus and Mig-35 (if purchased with TOT) can be bought with open architecture.

Edit:

Read bold part in below paragraph please.

Quote:

*Overview[edit]*
The most important changes are the Phazotron Zhuk-AE active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the RD-33MK engines and the newly designed Optical Locator System, OLS-35.[22][23][24]

*The final configuration of the MiG-35's onboard equipment has been left open intentionally using the *MIL-STD-1553* bus.[25] The main advantage of an open architecture configuration for its avionics is that future customers will have options to choose from components and systems made by Russian, United States, French and Israeli sources. The *Ramenskoye* Design Company will act as systems integrator.[*

Unquote:

Mikoyan MiG-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Donatello

Basel said:


> You know Pakistan can not afford both at a same time.
> 
> If you prefer interchangeable stuff then purchasing Mig-35s with TOT will suits Pakistan because JFT and Mig-35 can share many things including engine.



MIG35 is a dead end aircraft.......with hardly any in service and no exports, JFT alone can match or supersede it's capabilities once the AESA and HOBS is installed.

What we want is a small number of Heavies to protect our shipping lanes. Pakistan will make F-16 fleet number 100 or more.Add 150-200 JFT, we are well covered in the medium and light aircraft roles. 50 heavies will do wonders.

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## Basel

Donatello said:


> MIG35 is a dead end aircraft.......with hardly any in service and no exports, JFT alone can match or supersede it's capabilities once the AESA and HOBS is installed.
> 
> What we want is a small number of Heavies to protect our shipping lanes. Pakistan will make F-16 fleet number 100 or more.Add 150-200 JFT, we are well covered in the medium and light aircraft roles. 50 heavies will do wonders.



Mig-35 is not dead end Egypt is purchasing them and they have bigger envelope then Mig-29Ks.

Mikoyan MiG-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Donatello

Basel said:


> Mig-35 is not dead end Egypt is purchasing them and they have bigger envelope then Mig-29Ks.
> 
> Mikoyan MiG-35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



They have plenty of F-16s and the Rafales are incoming, so i wouldn't take export of MIG35 to Egypt as any yardstick. Probably to keep their Russian partners happy.

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## pkd

Donatello said:


> They have plenty of F-16s and the Rafales are incoming, so i wouldn't take export of MIG35 to Egypt as any yardstick. Probably to keep their Russian partners happy.


Why would Egypt will invest in a fighter that seems to have no foreseeable prospects and by extention that means lack of spares in the future

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## Basel

Donatello said:


> They have plenty of F-16s and the Rafales are incoming, so i wouldn't take export of MIG35 to Egypt as any yardstick. Probably to keep their Russian partners happy.



Their F-16s are not equipped with modern BVR and their IFF treat Israel as friend while Mig-35s will not have those issues.

Egypt steps up interest in MiG-35 deal with Russia
.
‘Egypt close to buying 24 MiG-35 Fulcrums’ | AIRheads↑FLY


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## Donatello

Basel said:


> Their F-16s are not equipped with modern BVR and their IFF treat Israel as friend while Mig-35s will not have those issues.
> 
> Egypt steps up interest in MiG-35 deal with Russia
> .
> ‘Egypt close to buying 24 MiG-35 Fulcrums’ | AIRheads↑FLY



True, that is why they are going for Rafale, but i think the MIG35 buy is to maybe force USA to finally release the AIM120 to them........otherwise they made a pretty stupid decision to buy BLK52s without AIM120s.......could've bought all MIg35s in that place.....but then again, with Egypt it is a strategic gain....once Russia sorts Syria out....they'll want another reliable partner in the region....and Egypt is a natural choice.


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## Basel

Donatello said:


> True, that is why they are going for Rafale, but i think the MIG35 buy is to maybe force USA to finally release the AIM120 to them........otherwise they made a pretty stupid decision to buy BLK52s without AIM120s.......could've bought all MIg35s in that place.....but then again, with Egypt it is a strategic gain....once Russia sorts Syria out....they'll want another reliable partner in the region....and Egypt is a natural choice.



With Mig-35 they will get 4.5+ gen fighter with no restrictions and in economical price compared to F-16's 4.5+ gen version which also comes with stings.

Rafael as top end and Mig-35 to complement it, and F-16s as workhorse.


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## princefaisal

In post Rafale procurement scenario by India, Pakistan should also look for J-10 C with AL-41F1S engines.

If Pakistan gets Su-35 from Russia, then it can also get approval of AL-41F1S engines for J-10C also.


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## Mughal-Prince

princefaisal said:


> In post Rafale procurement scenario by India, Pakistan should also look for J-10 C with AL-41F1S engines.
> 
> If Pakistan gets Su-35 from Russia, then it can also get approval of AL-41F1S engines for J-10C also.



I am more interested in F-117-S or its improved variants with better fuel efficiency, supercruise, reliability or else the new WS-10 series with latest variants.


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## Zarvan

Pakistan needs a third 4.5th General platform and SU-35 or J-11 D and if not them than J-10 C are the great options for us trusting USA is biggest mistake.

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## Signalian

No need to hurry. wait for J-31 to get an edge on IAF.


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## Mughal-Prince

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan needs a third 4.5th General platform and SU-35 or J-11 D and if not them than J-10 C are the great options for us trusting USA is biggest mistake.



Zarvan brah all of these bare high operating cost in comparison to western counterparts but western machines are expensive to procure.


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## Peace seeker

maybe another unconfirmed information................. i really want to know the genuine reference......


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Donatello said:


> True, that is why they are going for Rafale, but i think the MIG35 buy is to maybe force USA to finally release the AIM120 to them........otherwise they made a pretty stupid decision to buy BLK52s without AIM120s.......could've bought all MIg35s in that place.....but then again, with Egypt it is a strategic gain....once Russia sorts Syria out....they'll want another reliable partner in the region....and Egypt is a natural choice.


Or, Russia herself gets sorted out?!? Last time they got sorted out were due to WW1 and Afghan war - if history has anything to convey to us!!



Basel said:


> With Mig-35 they will get 4.5+ gen fighter with no restrictions and in economical price compared to F-16's 4.5+ gen version which also comes with stings.
> 
> Rafael as top end and Mig-35 to complement it, and F-16s as workhorse.


Under the command of Sisi ( no offense to sisters), they will fare worse than the last Arab Istaeli war. As far as Turks are concerned, it's man not machine which brings laurels!!


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## Akasa

According to numerous authoritative sources, a variant of the *WS-10B* with *3D thrust vector control* and approximately *145 kN* of thrust is being evaluated aboard a flying testbed. The engine has completed ground-based tests.

It is expected to enter service with the J-11D in the future, but installation aboard the *J-10C* cannot be ruled out.

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## Syed_Adeel

HAIDER said:


> China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in Canada.
> 
> Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.
> 
> Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.
> 
> Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B’s power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A’s 500 flight hours to the J-10B’s 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.
> 
> Source : Want China Times
> 
> * That' s the engine, which is game changer. Same engine is used in all Russian and Chinese stealth fighters/bombers. Plus same same type used in SU30/35. Same engine is modified for TVC. If Russia approve this engine, then for sure this plane will be in Pak fleet. If PAF has no other issues.



What i understood with PAF planning, there is no place of j10 in PAF for following reasons as summarised below,

1) Jf 17 is going to be workhorse of PAF and its newer versions will have all the capabilities j10 can offer except range and payload

2) F16 is already offering all the features which j10 can offer so PAF has decided to induct mix of new and old f16s 
and upgrade them at much lesser cost because inducting j10 will require a whole new infrastructure to training and maintaining and operating without adding any new capability advantage.

3) PAF has decided to maintain 100+ (new and MLU upgraded old ) f16s and hundreds of JFTs till 2025 at max. after that PAF will got for 5th gen.

I think this is the most beneficial in terms of survivability and cost to benefit ratio.

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## ghauri05

Syed_Adeel said:


> What i understood with PAF planning, there is no place of j10 in PAF for following reasons as summarised below,
> 
> 
> 3) PAF has decided to maintain 100+ (new and MLU upgraded old ) f16s and hundreds of JFTs till 2025 at max. after that PAF will got for 5th gen.
> 
> I think this is the most beneficial in terms of survivability and cost to benefit ratio.


The only worrying thing is point 3...that for almost 9-10 years,we are going to be dependant on light and medium range aircrafts,..s it puts us on completely defensive position....we don't have any heavy and we won't be able to launche an offensive operation in enemy's territory...!!!while our enemy is far ahead both in numbers and quality as most of the aircrafts are 4th gen.and have enough range to launch deep strike mission
Another point...j31...i don't know about it,whether it's heavy or medium ...if it's medium than...we won't gain too much even after inducting it...as our weakness of launching an offensive strike will always be there(remember india is also getting PAKFA..which is surely a heavy...and also it neutralizes our stealth)....!!!
So why PAF is ignoring such shortcomings....and making itself a defensive force....??while all the air forces in the world have assumed the offensive role

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## SAS

What advantages does J-10B bring to Pakistan Air Force over current F-16 52 block? Apart from price label. Also, the lower price label comes with notorious Chinese unreliability and unavailability.


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## New World

Sarge said:


> No need to hurry. wait for J-31 to get an edge on IAF.


and in that time IAF will have 100+ T-50 , AMCA 100+ and 50+ F-35..


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## cloud4000

New World said:


> and in that time IAF will have 100+ T-50 , AMCA 100+ and 50+ F-35..



Is India seriously considering the F-35 even though it's heavily invested in T-50 project?


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## Syed_Adeel

ghauri05 said:


> The only worrying thing is point 3...that for almost 9-10 years,we are going to be dependant on light and medium range aircrafts,..s it puts us on completely defensive position....we don't have any heavy and we won't be able to launche an offensive operation in enemy's territory...!!!while our enemy is far ahead both in numbers and quality as most of the aircrafts are 4th gen.and have enough range to launch deep strike mission
> Another point...j31...i don't know about it,whether it's heavy or medium ...if it's medium than...we won't gain too much even after inducting it...as our weakness of launching an offensive strike will always be there(remember india is also getting PAKFA..which is surely a heavy...and also it neutralizes our stealth)....!!!
> So why PAF is ignoring such shortcomings....and making itself a defensive force....??while all the air forces in the world have assumed the offensive role



Dear Medium or light aircrafts doesnt mean that they cannot launch offensive strikes.
Handful of Israeli f16s destroyed whole Iraqi nuclear reactor.
f16 has potent strike capability with good ranges. and JFT can also launch strike upto ±1000KM ranges with decent payload. It doesnt make us completely defensive. PAF has offensive defence doctrine and they know much better than us that how to achieve their goals.

f35 or j31 are still made for air interception as major role. once you get air cover then you can send lower end heavy fighters for ground attacks.


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## Blue Marlin

cloud4000 said:


> Is India seriously considering the F-35 even though it's heavily invested in T-50 project?


really? how do you know?
its not cheap. and i thought from the feedback indian users here on pdf have about inducting American jets is negative.
they go on about the strings involved and how they will be able to switch of critical avionics. or how they can easily stop supplying parts to you in wartime.............i will tag you shortly

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## chhota bheem

Blue Marlin said:


> really? how do you know?
> its not cheap. and i thought from the feedback indian users here on pdf have about inducting American jets is negative.
> they go on about the strings involved and how they will be able to switch of critical avionics. or how they can easily stop supplying parts to you in wartime.............i will tag you shortly


Indian Navy might get F35


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## Blue Marlin

chhota bheem said:


> Indian Navy might get F35


well that does make sense as your carriers are getting emals. but at the same time russia offered to make provide mis29k's that are emal compatible. and lets not forget the f18

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## New World

cloud4000 said:


> Is India seriously considering the F-35 even though it's heavily invested in T-50 project?


who knows. this govt. has tilted more towards the USA, might they will consider it by next few year.. 
and Israel may also advocate for F-35..



Vedic said:


> lso 300 Su-30s, 148 LCA and 36/72 Rafales


we are talking about 5 gen fighters..


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## New World

Vedic said:


> oh, btw AMCA is just a Fantasy for next Couple of Years.


i'm taking about 2025+


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## ghauri05

Syed_Adeel said:


> Dear Medium or light aircrafts doesnt mean that they cannot launch offensive strikes.
> Handful of Israeli f16s destroyed whole Iraqi nuclear reactor.
> f16 has potent strike capability with good ranges. and JFT can also launch strike upto ±1000KM ranges with decent payload. It doesnt make us completely defensive. PAF has offensive defence doctrine and they know much better than us that how to achieve their goals.
> 
> f35 or j31 are still made for air interception as major role. once you get air cover then you can send lower end heavy fighters for ground attacks.


For israelis the adversary was Iraq..not a potent air force to defend the skies....but for us it's India...there number are huge as compared to us and all of them are technologically either equivalent or superior to our aircrafts plus they have also invested in SAMs(another area in which Pak lags far behind)...so it will not be as easy for us as is it was for israelis ....!!!

The thing is PAF have no planning to go for a trike air superiority fighter...so i don't see any offensive part in PAF's doctrine....and that is dangerous for us. 

And plz elaborate how JFT has strike range of 1000KM...may be enhance my knowledge about it.


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## Zarvan

ghauri05 said:


> For israelis the adversary was Iraq..not a potent air force to defend the skies....but for us it's India...there number are huge as compared to us and all of them are technologically either equivalent or superior to our aircrafts plus they have also invested in SAMs(another area in which Pak lags far behind)...so it will not be as easy for us as is it was for israelis ....!!!
> 
> The thing is PAF have no planning to go for a trike air superiority fighter...so i don't see any offensive part in PAF's doctrine....and that is dangerous for us.
> 
> And plz elaborate how JFT has strike range of 1000KM...may be enhance my knowledge about it.


Mr even during 1965 and 1971 wars when we were far less powerful our Air Force went for offensive war and we kept going inside India and destroying their Air Force and bases and other systems. Now we in much better position and their would be no defensive strategy but only on paper.


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## ghauri05

Zarvan said:


> Mr even during 1965 and 1971 wars when we were far less powerful our Air Force went for offensive war and we kept going inside India and destroying their Air Force and bases and other systems. Now we in much better position and their would be no defensive strategy but only on paper.


Indians are also in much better position....and don't compare it today's air battles with those of '65 and '71.....those were more dependant on ability of pilots but today....technology plays key role....i m not saying the role of pilot is out of equation but it has reduced to minimum now...!!!
No doubt PAF done exceedingly good in previous wars but....we need to look forward for future...and maintain a balance with our enemy...now that can't be done in numbers of course...so we need to go for modern tech...with atleast one more platform...that can offer us..what JFT and F-16s can't...i.e payload and range...!!!!


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## Syed_Adeel

ghauri05 said:


> For israelis the adversary was Iraq..not a potent air force to defend the skies....but for us it's India...there number are huge as compared to us and all of them are technologically either equivalent or superior to our aircrafts plus they have also invested in SAMs(another area in which Pak lags far behind)...so it will not be as easy for us as is it was for israelis ....!!!
> 
> The thing is PAF have no planning to go for a trike air superiority fighter...so i don't see any offensive part in PAF's doctrine....and that is dangerous for us.
> 
> And plz elaborate how JFT has strike range of 1000KM...may be enhance my knowledge about it.



Dear i will provide you the official versions but i am telling you that PAF doctrine in offensive defence. its not completely defensive. and for that f16 and even jf17s are fine. normally in war the important logistics and commands are with in 1000KM.
They have more aircrafts but after complete induction of JFT IAF will be having many air crafts which are not as good as ours, they have many mig 21s mig 23 older mig 29s and jaguars which are not as good as you think.

JFT combat range is 1350KM with internal fuel.
CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



ghauri05 said:


> For israelis the adversary was Iraq..not a potent air force to defend the skies....but for us it's India...there number are huge as compared to us and all of them are technologically either equivalent or superior to our aircrafts plus they have also invested in SAMs(another area in which Pak lags far behind)...so it will not be as easy for us as is it was for israelis ....!!!
> 
> The thing is PAF have no planning to go for a trike air superiority fighter...so i don't see any offensive part in PAF's doctrine....and that is dangerous for us.
> 
> And plz elaborate how JFT has strike range of 1000KM...may be enhance my knowledge about it.



i will find more but for now read this.
http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/222400977_RSNSingh.pdf

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## Penguin

Basel said:


> Their F-16s are not equipped with modern BVR and their IFF treat Israel as friend while Mig-35s will not have those issues.
> 
> Egypt steps up interest in MiG-35 deal with Russia
> .
> ‘Egypt close to buying 24 MiG-35 Fulcrums’ | AIRheads↑FLY



Egypt is an F-16 user
General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All models since F-16A/B Block 20 are capable of both AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 Amraam
USAF ANG F-16A/B Block 15 ADF was the only early US version equipped with the AIM-7 Sparrow air-to-air missile
General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Egypt is an AIM-7 Sparrow user (and none of its aircraft but the F-16 use it)
AIM-7 Sparrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Semi active radar homing
AIM-7C/D: 32 kilometres (20 mi)
AIM-7E/E2: 45 kilometres (28 mi)
AIM-7F/M: 50 kilometres (31 mi)
AIM-7 Sparrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mirage 2000 of Egypt has the 40km Super 530D AAM (semi active radar homing)
Dassault Mirage 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Super 530 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rafale has Mica, which comes in 'fire and forget ' IR and EM variants, though Egypt apparently has not yet ordered EM. Still, guidance aside, the missile are the same and the IR variant does 50km just like the EM variant.
Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
MICA (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aside from Sparrow, Super 530D and Mica IR, the acquisition of Rafale will bring the Meteor active radar homing AAM, which has a range of 'in excess of 100 km'.
List of munitions used by the Egyptian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Meteor (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mig-35, like Mig-29 can use
AA-10 Alamo: 4× R-27R (up to 80km), R-27T (up to 70km), R-27ER (up to130km), R-27ET (up to 120km)
AA-12 Adder: 8× R-77 (80 km R-77, 110 km R-77-1, >200km K-77M)

Question is what BVRAAM would Mig-35 be ordered with (and what Mig-35 adds relative to Soviet era Mig-29, which also used R-27 and R-77 already). Remember, Egypt has spent a lot of time ridding itself of legacy soviet jets. Logistically, Mig-35 would mean an additional aircraft type and 2 additional missile types.


----------



## Zain Malik

HAIDER said:


> China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in Canada.
> 
> Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.
> 
> Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.
> 
> Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B’s power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A’s 500 flight hours to the J-10B’s 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.
> 
> Source : Want China Times
> 
> * That' s the engine, which is game changer. Same engine is used in all Russian and Chinese stealth fighters/bombers. Plus same same type used in SU30/35. Same engine is modified for TVC. If Russia approve this engine, then for sure this plane will be in Pak fleet. If PAF has no other issues.


The deal has cancelled buddy.......!!!!!!!



Muhammad Omar said:


> uestion is how many?? are we going for 36 or more??


Not Even A Single One The Deal Has Cancelled......!!!!!!!


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## HAIDER

Zain Malik said:


> The deal has cancelled buddy.......!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Not Even A Single One The Deal Has Cancelled......!!!!!!!


Really ,lol...

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## Inception-06

Zain Malik said:


> The deal has cancelled buddy.......!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Not Even A Single One The Deal Has Cancelled......!!!!!!!




The Reasons are ?


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## Tipu7

HAIDER said:


> Really ,lol...


I am waiting for two theories of yours to materialize in reality.............

One is This J10b ............. which I don't understand why WE need as per you
One is of Su35................. brought via China by Pakistan from Russia as per you.

waiting......................


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## HAIDER

Tipu7 said:


> I am waiting for two theories of yours to materialize in reality.............
> 
> One is This J10b ............. which I don't understand why WE need as per you
> One is of Su35................. brought via China by Pakistan from Russia as per you.
> 
> waiting......................


Reply you later, but SU35 in my opinion was just used a leverage pre Modi visit to Russia, where Russian exporter looking more deal in defence sector May be you know, India-Russia Pak FA deal is in trouble water. Its all due to lack of funds for project, and Indian refused to fund the project anymore.
As far as, J10b has been partly brainchild of PAF from the start of project. PAF engineers were fully involved in this project. Its one of best second line of defense after F16. Pak F16 been parked for many years due to sanctions in the past. So, Pak need to have something at par in the back up for offense and defence and its not Jf17, but J10b. In rules of engagement , small countries like Pakistan, hardly look for heavy weight bomber fighters . They always look for JSF or lighting speed fighters to chase enemy before reaching the red line. Pakistan and Isreal follow similar air defence and combat doctrine. PAF is defensive doctrine. Pak don't anything to go for offense, if comparing India.

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## Zain Malik

J10b is a 4++ Generation aircraft....The deal has cancelled because senior officers have stated that Pakistan is now producing its own Thunder and there is not need of 4++ Generation aircraft for Pakistan airforce.....They will go for 5th GEN aircraft in future such as J31........!!!!!1


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## 帅的一匹

If Pakistan buys J10b/c, means the export market for JF17 shrinks. They may accumulate wealth for inducting J31.

Although I always hope J10b in PAF's color, we shall respect the ground reality.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Tipu7 said:


> I am waiting for two theories of yours to materialize in reality.............
> 
> One is This J10b ............. which I don't understand why WE need as per you
> One is of Su35................. brought via China by Pakistan from Russia as per you.
> 
> waiting......................





HAIDER said:


> Reply you later, but SU35 in my opinion was just used a leverage pre Modi visit to Russia, where Russian exporter looking more deal in defence sector May be you know, India-Russia Pak FA deal is in trouble water. Its all due to lack of funds for project, and Indian refused to fund the project anymore.
> As far as, J10b has been partly brainchild of PAF from the start of project. PAF engineers were fully involved in this project. Its one of best second line of defense after F16. Pak F16 been parked for many years due to sanctions in the past. So, Pak need to have something at par in the back up for offense and defence and its not Jf17, but J10b. In rules of engagement , small countries like Pakistan, hardly look for heavy weight bomber fighters . They always look for JSF or lighting speed fighters to chase enemy before reaching the red line. Pakistan and Isreal follow similar air defence and combat doctrine. PAF is defensive doctrine. Pak don't anything to go for offense, if comparing India.



There is no doubt that J-10b or c would not come to PAF because they do not give any edge to PAF over the F-16's. The JF-17 can be further developed to what F-16 block 60 are in the near future, the only problem is limited funds. 

SU-35 or SU-34 Both are being consider as seen from the various threads but the issue is can they be bought in large numbers so that the cost may be minimized. The only issue that can be seen over the years is that this might delay the procurement of 5th Gen aircraft in the future. 

IMO 
If IAF is able to get the cost reduced for the Rafale then PAF would definitely require a true air superiority fighter which the SU-35 may not become. PAF would be inclined towards the EFT as that might give PAF an edge even with a limited numbers as they would be good force multipliers along the F-16's.


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## Signalian

New World said:


> and in that time IAF will have 100+ T-50 , AMCA 100+ and 50+ F-35..


yes with the same speed with which MRCA has been inducted

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## 帅的一匹

The only possibility of inducting J10b is high tension between Indian and Pakistan, otherwise it's not gonna be possible.

PLAAF has huge demand in J10b/c, it's difficult to export it before our own demand being fulfilled.

When China is strong, India will not that stupid to attack Pakistan cause they know China's attitude. Jackals won't attack buffalo if Lion is there.

At war time, China will provide lots of weapon to PAF as long as they ask.

When Pakistan is with China, it means a shield that India doesn't wanna break through.

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## New World

Sarge said:


> yes with the same speed with which MRCA has been inducted


Modi is a aggressor guy. He won't do those things which his predecessor have done..


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## Signalian

New World said:


> Modi is a aggressor guy. He won't do those things which his predecessor have done..


dreams are tax-free. enjoy


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## Zain Malik

PAF in my opinion do not buy J10b Fighters we should save money for j31,f35 or for SUper Flanker .......Twin Engine Is basic need of PAf now a days.......!!!!


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## weqi

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> Key word in the article "may export". Besides PAF should save up for a 5th gen fighters.


your logo of qTufail very nice



Zarvan said:


> You think I am being childish but I stand by my views 270 JF-17 Thunder and 100 F-16 and 100 either J-10B or J-11D is the way forward.


bhai apnay ghar may kab banay ga


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## Talwar e Pakistan

Didn't Mushy sign a deal to procure 36 J-10s?

Was the deal scrapped? Anyone know what happened?


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## DJ_Viper

Talwar e Pakistan said:


> Didn't Mushy sign a deal to procure 36 J-10s?
> 
> Was the deal scrapped? Anyone know what happened?



Sir, I think the PAF is after the stealth optimized JF-18 (or block IV of the JFT program) and acquiring some J-31 to form the hi-tier of the stealth. It makes sense. The JFT pretty much does what the J-10B does. So why pay so much when you can get the tech for the JFT instead and upgrade in house?



cloud4000 said:


> Is India seriously considering the F-35 even though it's heavily invested in T-50 project?



Sir, India will buy the F-35. You can mark my words and remember them


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## 4GTejasBVR

DJ_Viper said:


> Sir, I think the PAF is after the stealth optimized JF-18 (or block IV of the JFT program) and acquiring some J-31 to form the hi-tier of the stealth. It makes sense. The JFT pretty much does what the J-10B does. So why pay so much when you can get the tech for the JFT instead and upgrade in house?
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, India will buy the F-35. You can mark my words and remember them



F35 don't have any roles to play in IAF same tasks can be carried out by Rafale and sukoi armed with bramos. But For Navy F35 is a mint. Think about some 40 F35 ready to bomb enemies fleet or their naval bases. !!!

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## graphican

A non-Pakistani/Chinese YouTube Channel by the name Gallery Military in a recent video claimed that Pakistan has purchased two squardons of J-10s. 

*Published on 16 Mar 2017*
Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2016, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.
The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF 
China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.


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## 帅的一匹

China has more than 400 J10A/S/b/c in operation. Look at this one, PLAAF J10c with WS10A engine in patrol : credit to @cirr






I think J10c with WS10A engine had started to get LRIP.

Means WS10A is fully matured.



graphican said:


> A non-Pakistani/Chinese YouTube Channel by the name Gallery Military in a recent video claimed that Pakistan has purchased two squardons of J-10s.
> 
> *Published on 16 Mar 2017*
> Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2016, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.
> The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF
> China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.


I won't be surprise if the J10b deal go through. This might be signed to compensate for the late delivery of F16.

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## ejaz007

graphican said:


> A non-Pakistani/Chinese YouTube Channel by the name Gallery Military in a recent video claimed that Pakistan has purchased two squardons of J-10s.
> 
> *Published on 16 Mar 2017*
> Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2016, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.
> The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF
> China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.



Defense Industry Daily reported the same thing years a go. Even the article seems to be the same.

*Pakistan Buying Chinese J-10 Fighters*
Nov 11, 2009 22:11 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff




J-10S
(click to view full)
Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2009, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter



, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.

The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF in July 2004.

China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Pakistan-Buying-Chinese-J-10-Fighters-05937/

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## aftab_s81

The writer of this article has missed a decade, seems he was sleeping.


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## Michael Corleone

HAIDER said:


> China may export its J-10B fighter equipped with the Russian-built AL31FN-S3 engine to Pakistan and other potential buyers from Asia, Latin America and Africa in the near future, writes the Kanwa Defense Review, a Chinese-language military magazine based in Canada.
> 
> Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group last year began the mass production of the J-10B fighters. A total of 14 of the jets have already been painted with PLA Air Force markings and turned over to the military while at least 10 aircraft are undergoing test flights. Kanwa said the PLA Air Force will eventually commission 24 J-10Bs to form a fighter regiment before the end of the year.
> 
> Designed as the upgraded version of the J-10 fighter, the J-10B is the first domestically designed aircraft fitted with a diverterless supersonic inlet to shield the engine compressor blades from radar waves. The article also noticed that new electronic warfare systems can also been in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabilizer. With infra-red search and track sensors, the aircraft can also carry out reconnaissance operations.
> 
> Russia has agreed to sell advanced AL31FN engines to China to improve the J-10B’s power systems and the first batch of the engines is expected this year. This will increase the life of the aircraft from the J-10A’s 500 flight hours to the J-10B’s 750 hours. As China begins to introduce more Russian engines in the future, all J-10B aircraft will be fitted with the AL31FN.
> 
> Source : Want China Times
> 
> * That' s the engine, which is game changer. Same engine is used in all Russian and Chinese stealth fighters/bombers. Plus same same type used in SU30/35. Same engine is modified for TVC. If Russia approve this engine, then for sure this plane will be in Pak fleet. If PAF has no other issues.


wait what? only 750hr of airframe life?


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## Path-Finder

graphican said:


> A non-Pakistani/Chinese YouTube Channel by the name Gallery Military in a recent video claimed that Pakistan has purchased two squardons of J-10s.
> 
> *Published on 16 Mar 2017*
> Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2016, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.
> The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF
> China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.


How solid is this news? interest and speculations on J10 go waaaaaay back!


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## Russell

Mohammed Khaled said:


> wait what? only 750hr of airframe life?


engine operational lifetime before overhaul...this article is old...

even in 2011 - they were saying that had been extended...



> the original AL-31 was good for 900 hours of operation. Chinese engineers figured out how to tweak the design of the engine so that it would last for 1,500 hours. Russia has since improved their basic AL-31 lifetime to 1,500 hours, and, most recently, 2,000 hours.



I'm sure, it's even more now


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## 帅的一匹

Mohammed Khaled said:


> wait what? only 750hr of airframe life?


4000

Now the MTBO is 1500 hours, it makes steady progress.

the recent WS10B engine has dry thrust of
10 tons, wet 14.5-15.5tons(WS15 STAGE1, use WS15 tech from Institute 624 to enhance WS10 performance). The fully operational WS15 engine will have dry thrust 12 tons and wet thrust 18 tons.

China is the only country get access to CMF56 core and AL31 core both.

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## Thorough Pro

It looks like quite capable and maneuverable aircraft and can fill the gap of F-16 class fighter (if we don't get additional 2 squadrons of 16's) to supplement Thunders and future 5th gen fighter. Addition of two/three J-10 squadrons would go a long way in meeting number parity with the enemy




graphican said:


> A non-Pakistani/Chinese YouTube Channel by the name Gallery Military in a recent video claimed that Pakistan has purchased two squardons of J-10s.
> 
> *Published on 16 Mar 2017*
> Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2016, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.
> The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF
> China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.


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## graphican

Pakistan delayed its J-10 decision because MMRCA was heading no where and they probably didn't want to create a sense of urgency in Indian strategists by releasing the news first. 

But it was always thought that Pakistan would make a purchase after India finalises its Rafael deal, which is now done. India is getting 36 Rafael but we didn't hear anything from Pakistani side.


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## 帅的一匹

graphican said:


> Pakistan delayed its J-10 decision because MMRCA was heading no where and they probably didn't want to create a sense of urgency in Indian strategists by releasing the news first.
> 
> But it was always thought that Pakistan would make a purchase after India finalises its Rafael deal, which is now done. India is getting 36 Rafael but we didn't hear anything from Pakistani side.


Yeh. At the same time IAF's 5th gen project is got stuck with Russian. I see PAF will not be in a hurry to go for FC31. J10b is at PAF's call for so many years.

USA had promised to India that if they Induct the F16 assembly line, USA will not export F16 to Pakistan anymore. Time to go for J10b. For dignity and strategic flexibility.

China has true love for Pakistan, USA doesn't. We are waiting for PAF's call.

It doesn't make sense if PAF insist on buying fighter from someone ready to backstab.

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## graphican

wanglaokan said:


> Doesn't make sense if PAF insist on buying fighter from someone ready to backstab.



I agree with the red part, but inducting more F-16s is financially a cheaper option and easy to do vs Inducting any new platform.

But its a call Pakistan has to make anyway... F-16s can be sanctioned and with every passing day, USA is feeling compelled to cooperate with India more. We know Indians have two sides in their head... one that loves their country (perhapes) but one that hates Pakistan (for sure) - and Indians with more influence over US will definitely do their bit. We just saw how Indians died their souls off to stop sale of 8 units of F-16s. Now what they would not try to do when they have greater influence over America.

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## Readerdefence

wanglaokan said:


> China has more than 400 J10A/S/b/c in operation. Look at this one, PLAAF J10c with WS10A engine in patrol : credit to @cirr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think J10c with WS10A engine had started to get LRIP.
> 
> Means WS10A is fully matured.
> 
> 
> I won't be surprise if the J10b deal go through. This might be signed to compensate for the late delivery of F16.


J10b is not using AESA so why not to go for j10c with AESA


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## 帅的一匹

Readerdefence said:


> J10b is not using AESA so why not to go for j10c with AESA


one-step  Inshallah

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## Salza

graphican said:


> I agree with the red part, but inducting more F-16s is financially a cheaper option and easy to do vs Inducting any new platform.



I don't think J10s will be completely an alien platform for Pakistan. It already has all the features JF17 has or will have, it is based on Israeli Lavi project which itself a copy of F16. Pakistan China Airforce have enjoyed a cordial relationship since decades and many reports suggests that we have flown their superior planes, so keeping all this mind, I don't think J-10 will take considerable time to integrate into Pakistani setup.

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## salman-1

J-10b/c models in PAF would act like a data link for new upcoming technologies from china, an Aesa radar all sort of standoff weapons and new Air to air weapons can find their way into PAF. Around 100 plus companies work on new weapons testing based on j series aircraft where most testing a r on J-10 and J-11 aircrafts.
Just 2 squadrons in PAF can upload many new gadgets easily.

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