# JF-17 Thunder as a replacement for Moroccan F-5 & F-1 fleet?



## Chak Bamu

*News: Moroccan F-X Program | Royal Moroccan Armed Forces

News: Moroccan F-X Program*
_The Moroccan F-X program has been established to enable the Royal Moroccan Air Force to buy a new aircraft to replace the Northrop F-5 Tiger III for the next decade.

Although the formal request for proposals has not been released, several competitors are expected to submit existing aircraft and others are considering all new designs.

What we know is that the chineses, through CATIC, have proposed an industrial cooperation and proposed their Chengdu/PAC JF-17 Thunder._
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evidently this link is a little dated (29 April, 2014). It is nice that CATIC is pushing FC-1 / JF-17.

It is interesting to note that RMAF operates the following aricraft:
F-16 C/D Blk 52: 24 (16+8)
Mirage F1: 33(?) (27 upgraded + 5-7) Dassault Mirage F1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F-5: 32 (8 F-5B/F III for training + 24 F-5E III Fighters) Northrop F-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Alpha Jet : 24 CAS/Trainer Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of active Moroccan military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One can see that JF-17 can easily replace F-5, and provided a twin-seat version is made, can take over training role of F-5 as well. Moreover, Mirage F-1 is getting old as well and airforces the world over are retiring them. The specifications are not too different from JF-17. So, F-1 can also be replaced with JF-17 if RMAF so chooses. Lastly, Alpha Jets can also be replaced with JF-17, but their role and specifications are quite different. Evidently they can soldier on as trainers while JF-17 takes over CAS because of its multi-role nature.

With F-16 Blk 52 and JF-17 based force, RMAF can replicate PAF's model of hi-lo setup with potent multirole combat aircraft in a very cost-effective configuration.

My guess is that they could eventually buy between 60-90 planes.
------------------------------------------------
The above is being cross-posted from JF-17 thread. Are there any Morroccan posters here who could help with the discussion here?

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## rockstar08

our wish list to sell JF is very long , but i know that none of our Arab brother will ever buy this plane .

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## Basel

Instead for rushing for sale of JF-17s we should try to mature it and should develop a high end variant of it for domestic use.

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## Luftwaffe

Chak Bamu said:


> *News: Moroccan F-X Program | Royal Moroccan Armed Forces
> 
> News: Moroccan F-X Program*
> _The Moroccan F-X program has been established to enable the Royal Moroccan Air Force to buy a new aircraft to replace the Northrop F-5 Tiger III for the next decade.
> 
> Although the formal request for proposals has not been released, several competitors are expected to submit existing aircraft and others are considering all new designs.
> 
> What we know is that the chineses, through CATIC, have proposed an industrial cooperation and proposed their Chengdu/PAC JF-17 Thunder._
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Evidently this link is a little dated (29 April, 2014). It is nice that CATIC is pushing FC-1 / JF-17.
> 
> It is interesting to note that RMAF operates the following aricraft:
> F-16 C/D Blk 52: 24 (16+8)
> Mirage F1: 33(?) (27 upgraded + 5-7) Dassault Mirage F1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> F-5: 32 (8 F-5B/F III for training + 24 F-5E III Fighters) Northrop F-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Alpha Jet : 24 CAS/Trainer Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> List of active Moroccan military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> One can see that JF-17 can easily replace F-5, and provided a twin-seat version is made, can take over training role of F-5 as well. Moreover, Mirage F-1 is getting old as well and airforces the world over are retiring them. The specifications are not too different from JF-17. So, F-1 can also be replaced with JF-17 if RMAF so chooses. Lastly, Alpha Jets can also be replaced with JF-17, but their role and specifications are quite different. Evidently they can soldier on as trainers while JF-17 takes over CAS because of its multi-role nature.
> 
> With F-16 Blk 52 and JF-17 based force, RMAF can replicate PAF's model of hi-lo setup with potent multirole combat aircraft in a very cost-effective configuration.
> 
> My guess is that they could eventually buy between 60-90 planes.
> ------------------------------------------------
> The above is being cross-posted from JF-17 thread. Are there any Morroccan posters here who could help with the discussion here?



I think F-1s have been upgraded, my views are Moroccans will replace it with 4.5/5th Gen in the Future.

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## Umair Nawaz

Mushkil ha na mumkin nahin.


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## KalaGhoda

ok..it may sound rude, but here's the piece.

the only people who will buy jf-17 are the people who can't afford any better. now, russians are also not in best of financial shape. now, why will anybody go through a chinese bird made in pakistan route when russians themselves will come up with soft loans, second hand stuff in excellent condition with full tot, why would anyone ?


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## TheFlyingPretzel

KalaGhoda said:


> ok..it may sound rude, but here's the piece.
> 
> the only people who will buy jf-17 are the people who can't afford any better. now, russians are also not in best of financial shape. now, why will anybody go through a chinese bird made in pakistan route when russians themselves will come up with soft loans, *second hand stuff in excellent condition* _*with full tot,*_ why would anyone ?



Because the JF-17 will give you value for money. There is nothing else on offer in this price range with the capabilities comparable to the Thunder's. Also your post doesn't make sense. How much did the acid come for?

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## KalaGhoda

TheFlyingPretzel said:


> Because the JF-17 will give you value for money. There is nothing else on offer in this price range with the capabilities comparable to the Thunder's. Also your post doesn't make sense. How much did the acid come for?



umm..JF-17 is a variant of the chinese F-7, the mig - 21 ? with a better airframe compared to F-7, 4th gen avionics chinese in origin, russian engine...

why will they not go for mig - 29 starter kits...or su-30 mkm versions with only missiles and lgbs..russians will lease them too...u think they will not try to not loose a customer ?


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## TheFlyingPretzel

KalaGhoda said:


> umm..JF-17 is a variant of the chinese F-7, the mig - 21 ? with a better airframe compared to F-7, 4th gen avionics chinese in origin, russian engine...
> 
> why will they not go for mig - 29 starter kits...or su-30 mkm versions with only missiles and lgbs..russians will lease them too...u think they will not try to not loose a customer ?



The F-7 and the JFT are about as related as the MiG-29 and the Su-30 MKI. In the case of the latter, they both have wings, they're Russian and they fly. Hence the Su-30 is a variant of the MiG-29. Wouldn't you agree?

A brand new MiG 29 will put you back well over $35 million a piece and the operational cost of a single plane is around $5 million annually. As a matter of fact a 12 MiG-29K and 4 MiG-29KUB contract signed on the 20th of January 2004, by India, was worth Rs 3,405.61 crores as per CAG. For an exchange rate of 45.43 at that time, the amount translates to $749.7 million in 2004. Hence the average cost of a single MiG-29K was, at the time, $46.9 million.

The Thunder comes for less than half that price with a capability equally as comparable. There's simply nothing else on offer in its price-range.

The Su-30 is a completely different league of fighter aircraft. Unit costs start at $50+ million a piece.

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## KalaGhoda

i'm talking about starter kits..not 29Ks..these aircrafts are warbirds which are proven. the missiles, radars are proven in another aircraft to this aircraft fight. jf17 is not. it says on wiki that jf17 is a derivation from F7 with a cheaper version of the j10 avionics package and same missiles.

the advantages of choosing a basic version of a mig29 or a su30 mkms will be many more compared to jf17 as a matter of fact. if the russians offer them a good deal, they would choose these birds anyday. the whole point here being if and good deal.

why am i saying russian planes ? most of these deals and upgrades and new birds for AF kinda news revolve around replacing the mig21 variants. worldwide. how jf17 came to be.

point is, these guys have dealt with russians and flown their plane. F7 was a mig21 after all. the russians have better chance at retaining the mig21 customers. compared to the chinese.

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## Chak Bamu

Guys I am already discussing it on the JF-17 thread. My intention for starting a thread in the Arab Defense Section was to get input from someone from the region. Let us hear from someone from Morrocco.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pretty weak airforce this moroccon is


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## Luftwaffe

Morocco Air Force have received All F-16s in last 3-4 Years they are all brand new and atleast 10 Pilots have been trained with US Air National Guards and rest would be trained by these 10 pilots back in home. Lets look at it realistically they are just beginning their live with Vipers I do not think they would induct another new platform for some time not atleast a decade or close to it, but they do have plans in the next 10 Years, again plans do change.

My views are this F-X Program is to make competitors offer better pricing than the F-16s they bought at a higher cost to keep the Air Force in shape. If we carefully study their requirements could be to replace 13 F-1 [that are not modernized] and 22 F-5III. Just speculating Morocco could end up getting one more squadron of F-16s since they already operate the type in service. That could leave them with potential candidate for some 4th Gen to replace 18-22 F-5s it would be interesting who offers the best price and package...Rafale is already rejected in favor of F-16s earlier I do not think they would be replacing F-1/F-5s with Rafale due to costs and Typhoon is also equally expensive. What other platforms are left lets discuss.

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## Yzd Khalifa

Why is the DR is that bloody expensive? 


Luftwaffe said:


> Morocco Air Force have received All F-16s in last 3-4 Years they are all brand new and atleast 10 Pilots have been trained with US Air National Guards and rest would be trained by these 10 pilots back in home. Lets look at it realistically they are just beginning their live with Vipers I do not think they would induct another new platform for some time not atleast a decade or close to it, but they do have plans in the next 10 Years, again plans do change.
> 
> My views are this F-X Program is to make competitors offer better pricing than the F-16s they bought at a higher cost to keep the Air Force in shape. If we carefully study their requirements could be to replace 13 F-1 [that are not modernized] and 22 F-5III. Just speculating Morocco could end up getting one more squadron of F-16s since they already operate the type in service. That could leave them with potential candidate for some 4th Gen to replace 18-22 F-5s it would be interesting who offers the best price and package...Rafale is already rejected in favor of F-16s earlier I do not think they would be replacing F-1/F-5s with Rafale due to costs and Typhoon is also equally expensive. What other platforms are left lets discuss.

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## Hakan

Chak Bamu said:


> *News: Moroccan F-X Program | Royal Moroccan Armed Forces
> 
> News: Moroccan F-X Program*
> _The Moroccan F-X program has been established to enable the Royal Moroccan Air Force to buy a new aircraft to replace the Northrop F-5 Tiger III for the next decade.
> 
> Although the formal request for proposals has not been released, several competitors are expected to submit existing aircraft and others are considering all new designs.
> 
> What we know is that the chineses, through CATIC, have proposed an industrial cooperation and proposed their Chengdu/PAC JF-17 Thunder._
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Evidently this link is a little dated (29 April, 2014). It is nice that CATIC is pushing FC-1 / JF-17.
> 
> It is interesting to note that RMAF operates the following aricraft:
> F-16 C/D Blk 52: 24 (16+8)
> Mirage F1: 33(?) (27 upgraded + 5-7) Dassault Mirage F1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> F-5: 32 (8 F-5B/F III for training + 24 F-5E III Fighters) Northrop F-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Alpha Jet : 24 CAS/Trainer Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> List of active Moroccan military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> One can see that JF-17 can easily replace F-5, and provided a twin-seat version is made, can take over training role of F-5 as well. Moreover, Mirage F-1 is getting old as well and airforces the world over are retiring them. The specifications are not too different from JF-17. So, F-1 can also be replaced with JF-17 if RMAF so chooses. Lastly, Alpha Jets can also be replaced with JF-17, but their role and specifications are quite different. Evidently they can soldier on as trainers while JF-17 takes over CAS because of its multi-role nature.
> 
> With F-16 Blk 52 and JF-17 based force, RMAF can replicate PAF's model of hi-lo setup with potent multirole combat aircraft in a very cost-effective configuration.
> 
> My guess is that they could eventually buy between 60-90 planes.
> ------------------------------------------------
> The above is being cross-posted from JF-17 thread. Are there any Morroccan posters here who could help with the discussion here?


@FARSOLDIER


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## Luftwaffe

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Why is the DR is that bloody expensive?



I guess you mean Dassault Rafale? don't know but adding $15m more one could get F-35A and its One Generation ahead and stealth, french pride and arrogance?.

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## Babur Han

There is allready a Thread about the Moroccan Armed Forces open were I postet allready the Issue with the F-X Procurment ! Royal Moroccan Armed Forces | Page 16

From my Point of View if Morocco will get JF-17, they will go for a Variant which have:

- Stealth Characteristic
- ASEA Radar
- Air refueling Probes
- Avionic and Weapon Systems on western Standard

JF-17 would Morocco not from one Side depend like french or US Platforms will do, if JF-17 will be equippt with turkish made Avionics and Weapon Systems. This Solution offer 4,5 Generation Capabillities with western Technology for an acceptable Price to Morocco and Chance for TOT !

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## Luftwaffe

Babur Han said:


> There is allready a Thread about the Moroccan Armed Forces open were I postet allready the Issue with the F-X Procurment ! Royal Moroccan Armed Forces | Page 16
> 
> From my Point of View if Morocco will get JF-17, they will go for a Variant which have:
> 
> - Stealth Characteristic
> - ASEA Radar
> - Air refueling Probes
> - Avionic and Weapon Systems on western Standard
> 
> JF-17 would Morocco not from one Side depend like french or US Platforms will do, if JF-17 will be equippt with turkish made Avionics and Weapon Systems. This Solution offer 4,5 Generation Capabillities with western Technology for an acceptable Price to Morocco and Chance for TOT !



That's like selling Hull/Air Frame-Fuselage that ain't going to happen it would be a shame for PAC/CAC, there isn't much money PAF/CAC would make in selling fuselage/wiring alone. If the idea is not to be dependent on western equipment including weapons like AIM-9X/AIM-120C than what other BVR/WVR are they going to integrate into it because I am unaware of any Turkish origin BVR in active service perhaps in works.

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## Kompromat

Babur Han said:


> There is allready a Thread about the Moroccan Armed Forces open were I postet allready the Issue with the F-X Procurment ! Royal Moroccan Armed Forces | Page 16
> 
> From my Point of View if Morocco will get JF-17, they will go for a Variant which have:
> 
> - Stealth Characteristic
> - ASEA Radar
> - Air refueling Probes
> - Avionic and Weapon Systems on western Standard
> 
> JF-17 would Morocco not from one Side depend like french or US Platforms will do, if JF-17 will be equippt with turkish made Avionics and Weapon Systems. This Solution offer 4,5 Generation Capabillities with western Technology for an acceptable Price to Morocco and Chance for TOT !



I am afraid thats a laundry list sir.

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## Babur Han

@Luftwaffe & @Aeronaut

Turkey is increasing it's Economic and politic Influence in Sub Saharan Countries and the Acess to these Countries are the Lane at the straght of Gibraltar which is Controlled by GB in the North and Spain Ceuta and Melilla, even Perejil is claimed by Spain ! An Interoperabillity between turkish and moroccan armed Forces could become Neccesary to Counter several Threats in the Region ! From the Geopolitic View it make Sense for Turkey to equipp Morocco with modern Equippment !


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## Kompromat

Babur Han said:


> @Luftwaffe & @Aeronaut
> 
> Turkey is increasing it's Economic and politic Influence in Sub Saharan Countries and the Acess to these Countries are the Lane at the straght of Gibraltar which is Controlled by GB in the North and Spain Ceuta and Melilla, even Perejil is claimed by Spain ! An Interoperabillity between turkish and moroccan armed Forces could become Neccesary to Counter several Threats in the Region ! From the Geopolitic View it make Sense for Turkey to equipp Morocco with modern Equippment !



I doubt that Turkey is willing to engage in such geopolitics so far away from its borders.

However if Turkey wants to work with Pakistan to equip its future allies with JF-17s and Turkish subsystems, theoretically it is a plausible solution.

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## Luftwaffe

Babur Han said:


> @Luftwaffe & @Aeronaut
> 
> Turkey is increasing it's Economic and politic Influence in Sub Saharan Countries and the Acess to these Countries are the Lane at the straght of Gibraltar which is Controlled by GB in the North and Spain Ceuta and Melilla, even Perejil is claimed by Spain ! An Interoperabillity between turkish and moroccan armed Forces could become Neccesary to Counter several Threats in the Region ! From the Geopolitic View it make Sense for Turkey to equipp Morocco with modern Equippment !



I Agree but that it should be western equipment, I highly doubt PAC/CAC that manufactures JF-17 would just offer/sell Fuselage and parts to Morocco with almost non profit. PAC believes in their work they are working hard to make it unique, sure french weapons could be integrated but I do not think US would allow US weapons with JF-17 they refused to help U.A.E integrate Black Shaheen on F-16 Block 60 and up coming Block 61. Look at this way if Radar, weapons, EW suite and other electronics/software/mission computer are Turkish/French what is left on JF-17 from PAC/CAC? Chinese Engine?


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## Babur Han

Aeronaut said:


> *I doubt that Turkey is willing to engage in such geopolitics so far away from its borders.*
> 
> However if Turkey wants to work with Pakistan to equip its future allies with JF-17s and Turkish subsystems, theoretically it is a plausible solution.




Here is the answer !



> *Turkey doesn’t and will never support “Polisario front”: Erdogan*
> Submitted by admin on Tue, 04/06/2013 - 00:10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan expressed his country’s position on the Sahara issue Monday on a visit to Morocco.
> 
> 
> 
> In a press conference held at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Rabat, with the Moroccan Prime Minister Abdelilah Benkirane, the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said: “Turkey does not recognize the Polisario Front, and we are supporting the negotiations led by the United Nations to find a just solution to the Sahara.”



Turkey doesn’t and will never support “Polisario front”: Erdogan | Sahara Question

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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> I doubt that Turkey is willing to engage in such geopolitics so far away from its borders.
> 
> However if Turkey wants to work with Pakistan to equip its future allies with JF-17s and Turkish subsystems, theoretically it is a plausible solution.



Than Pakistan would not make much money out of it we can't afford such deals. Yes mix of weapons from China/Turkey/Pakistan gives flexibility.

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## Babur Han

I think Morocco will recieve the New Fighter in the next Decade, until 2020 F-16, modernized Mirage F1 and F-5 will be the backbone of RMAF. In this Time I'm Sure we will see turkish made WVR & BVR Missiles and I agree with Luftwaffe that a Mix pf Chinese, Pakistan and turkish Weapons give Morocco great Flexibility !

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## Kompromat

Babur Han said:


> I think Morocco will recieve the New Fighter in the next Decade, until 2020 F-16, modernized Mirage F1 and F-5 will be the backbone of RMAF. In this Time I'm Sure we will see turkish made WVR & BVR Missiles and I agree with Luftwaffe that a Mix pf Chinese, Pakistan and turkish Weapons give Morocco great Flexibility !



Turkey should actively work for a C.Asian union

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## Chak Bamu

Future threat analysis for Morocco should take into account Algiers whose air force is more potent than Morocco's with 2 squadrons of SU-30 operational and another coming up in near future. Morocco also has around 30 Mig 29, some Mig 25, Mig 24, and 50+ light attack and trainers (Aero L-39 + Yak 130).

Morocco and Algiers have serious differences in their respective regional views and ambition. Morocco has no option but to improve its Air force.

@Luftwaffe , you are too worried about profit out of JF-17 when it has no export orders as of yet. We keep emphasizing JF-17's open architecture and flexibility. What good would these be, if PAC/CAC can not support their customers in leveraging these qualities?

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## Luftwaffe

Chak Bamu said:


> Future threat analysis for Morocco should take into account Algiers whose air force is more potent than Morocco's with 2 squadrons of SU-30 operational and another coming up in near future. Morocco also has around 30 Mig 29, some Mig 25, Mig 24, and 50+ light attack and trainers (Aero L-39 + Yak 130).
> 
> Morocco and Algiers have serious differences in their respective regional views and ambition. Morocco has no option but to improve its Air force.
> 
> you are too worried about profit out of JF-17 when it has no export orders as of yet. We keep emphasizing JF-17's open architecture and flexibility. What good would these be, if PAC/CAC can not support their customers in leveraging these qualities?



Since Morocco is close Ally of US in any event US could supply more F-16s or even deploy their own squadron against the russian supported Algerian Air Force. F-16s are good enough to take care of SU-24 and Mig-29 so more F-16s is high possibility.

Industries live on profits remember F-16 production line was close to shutting down without any orders it is the new order that is keeping F-16 production line open, alot of people associated with industry/factory. What our friend insists is almost entire system/technologies/wepoans be of western/Turkish origin that would naturally mean providing just fuselage are we left to so such business and not show the our product have standards and quality and perform as good as any western 4+ Gen Aircraft? So my point is if exports order ever comes by. I understand open architecture for the customers to customized but it has to be limited the Aircraft already is low cost I would be about profits and success with the home made/JV Chinese technologies JV so it is also PAC/CAC to develop better product for exports so they don't go like india buying from the shelves incorporating.


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## The SC

These are the key words to remember :
_What we know is that the chineses, through CATIC, have proposed an industrial cooperation and proposed their Chengdu/PAC JF-17 Thunder._
An Industrial cooperation can translate to Morocco making some components of the aircraft at home, thus creating hundreds or thousands of jobs, on top of getting a potent replacement for their current fighters.
Morocco can then order a 100 or so Block2 of these birds, manufacture some parts, and by some other high end f-16s in the future. In this way it will have an air-force to recon with at an affordable price. There is no other offer like this one on the market for Morocco, so they should take advantage of it by all means, it is all positive.


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## Chak Bamu

The SC said:


> These are the key words to remember :
> _What we know is that the chineses, through CATIC, have proposed an industrial cooperation and proposed their Chengdu/PAC JF-17 Thunder._
> An Industrial cooperation can translate to Morocco making some components of the aircraft at home, thus creating hundreds or thousands of jobs, on top of getting a potent replacement for their current fighters.
> Morocco can then order a 100 or so Block2 of these birds, manufacture some parts, and by some other high end f-16s in the future. In this way it will have an air-force to recon with at an affordable price. There is no other offer like this one on the market for Morocco, so they should take advantage of it by all means, it is all positive.



It depends on their threat perception.

1. If they are looking to replace 30-50 aircraft, they would be likely not go for production all by themselves. They would have to spend a lot of money to set up facilities to produce aircraft. What would happen to those facilities when they are done manufacturing such a small number of aircraft?

2. If they are looking for a setup similar to PAF that can take on the worst of what Algiers can throw at them, then they might be looking at about 60-80 aircraft. Now that is where things start to get interesting.

3. If they are looking at projecting power in the region, then they should go for some twin-engine hard hitters in addition to single-engine jets.

It all depends on future plans of RMAF. The best case scenario for JF-17 would be #2 in my opinion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are there no Moroccans here on PDF, who can discuss this stuff?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Realistically Pakistan could seel J17 Thunders to


Saudia / Iran 50 fighters each which ever country is interested in it (seems like Saudia is )
36 Fighters for Alegria
36 Fighters for Egypt
36 Fighters for Morocco

But it all depends on their Budget and desire to purchase

Sign the Dotted line


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## Chak Bamu

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Realistically Pakistan could seel J17 Thunders to
> 
> 
> Saudia / Iran 50 fighters each which ever country is interested in it (seems like Saudia is )
> 36 Fighters for Alegria
> 36 Fighters for Egypt
> 36 Fighters for Morocco
> 
> But it all depends on their Budget and desire to purchase
> 
> Sign the Dotted line


Are you serious? Man this is NOT a troll thread.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well these nations need aircraft and we have planes to sell , should sell

I mean back few years we heard Egypt was interested
Recently Saudia showed interest in JF17 co production, and it appears to be a major initiative

Algeria / Morocco could also use some extra planes

Just saying , the customers are there we just need to show the plane in action

The problem has always been ... we hear about some interest but there is no follow up to plane sales

Egypt would have been a fore runner in purchase had they not had political problems becasue they already operate the K8


I mean logically who needs new planes ?

Iraq (Yes)
Algeria (Yes)
Morocco (Yes)
Egypt (Yes, a secondary option plane)
Iran (Big need for 100-200 planes)
Saudi Arabia (Would buy all the planes we would sell to Iran)

Many Eastern Asian Nations or central asia may also have some interest in small orders

Perhaps the bottle neck is we do not have a second production line for export orders our existing factories are handling our own local productiom so we need to perhaps invest more in improving the production capacity of the planes

*If Saudia lets say get into a 100 plane deal with Pakistan , then yes we can ignore other clients and focus immediately on Joint Production but if not then we should seek to seek small 2 squadron orders to such countries *


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## aliaselin

This is only a discussion on Moroccan military forum, and the only truth is CATIC has joined in an open exhibition in Moroccan.

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## Chak Bamu

aliaselin said:


> This is only a discussion on Moroccan military forum, and the only truth is CATIC has joined in an open exhibition in Moroccan.



Good to hear from someone other than a fellow Pakistani. Is it possible for you to expand on your short post?


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## aliaselin

Chak Bamu said:


> Good to hear from someone other than a fellow Pakistani. Is it possible for you to expand on your short post?


There is a link on the downside of the news, and I found it is for a Moroccan military forum. And for that linked page, only a voting for replacement of F-5, while not a formal news. My further research shows that the related news about this is:
صينيُو CATIC يسعون لتسويق "التنين المفترس" للجيش المغربي

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## VCheng

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I mean logically who needs new planes ?
> Iraq (Yes)
> Algeria (Yes)
> Morocco (Yes)
> Egypt (Yes, a secondary option plane)
> Iran (Big need for 100-200 planes)
> Saudi Arabia (Would buy all the planes we would sell to Iran)



All these countries will likely buy from Western sources, except Iran, which is under tight sanctions.


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## Andalusi Knight

Hi everyone,

I joined this Pakistani Forum just to answer this thread, I was searching on Google for differences between the Moroccan F-5 Tiger and the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17, and I found the thread, so I was having fun going through the subject and the whole conversations.. First of all, I would love to notice, that as a Moroccan and Muslim, I'm so proud of the Pakistani Army, who truly works hard in order to have a word in the world community, which I wish nothing but the best for you..

Returning to the subject, the RMAF got the offer from the Chinese Chendgu and also proposed an industrial cooperation to the RMAF, which is a great offer. As you all know, the RMAF has 24 F-16 Block 50/52++, Alpha Jets for training, and Mirage F1 and F-5 Tiger. The French Mirage F1 were upgraded to MF2000 lately, which mean, there's no need to replace them for the moment, so what the RMAF is focusing on, is what would replace the F-5 Tiger, and there's too many options as you know.

Believe it or not, me, as the most of the Moroccans who're interested in the RMAF news, we're too open for the Chinese offer, because that would give us a push, to have more industrial cooperation in the future, making our own fight jets, but the RMAF chiefs, as I guess, are more interested in an aircraft with two engines, because Algeria has the Su-35 and Spain has the F-18 and Eurofighter Typhoon as well, so we need something that would face these at once..
So from my point of view, I think that the JF-17 offer comes in the 2nd place, and nobody knows what the RMAF is aiming on, as the 1st place.I Thank you all, one by one, for being interested in the thread, and I will try to continue the conversation with you..

Greetings from Morocco

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## Chak Bamu

Andalusi Knight said:


> Hi everyone,
> I joined this Pakistani Forum just to answer this thread, I was searching on Google for differences between the Moroccan F-5 Tiger and the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17, and I found the thread, so I was having fun going through the subject and the whole conversations..
> First of all, I would love to notice, that as a Moroccan and Muslim, I'm so proud of the Pakistani Army, who truly works hard in order to have a word in the world community, which I wish nothing but the best for you..
> Returning to the subject, the RMAF got the offer from the Chinese Chendgu and also proposed an industrial cooperation to the RMAF, which is a great offer..
> As you all know, the RMAF has 24 F-16 Block 50/52++, Alpha Jets for training, and Mirage F1 and F-5 Tiger..
> The French Mirage F1 were upgraded to MF2000 lately, which mean, there's no need to replace them for the moment, so what the RMAF is focusing on, is what would replace the F-5 Tiger, and there's too many options as you know..
> Believe it or not, me, as the most of the Moroccans who're interested in the RMAF news, we're too open for the Chinese offer, because that would give us a push, to have more industrial cooperation in the future, making our own fight jets, but the RMAF chiefs, as I guess, are more interested in an aircraft with two engines, because Algeria has the Su-35 and Spain has the F-18 and Eurofighter Typhoon as well, so we need something that would face these at once..
> So from my point of view, I think that the JF-17 offer comes in the 2nd place, and nobody knows what the RMAF is aiming on, as the 1st place..
> I Thank you all, one by one, for being interested in the thread, and I will try to continue the conversation with you..
> Greetings from Morocco



Ahlan wa Sahlan wa Mar7aba ya Akhi... Welcome PDF. Do stick around, because though we have many Arab posters from around the world, we probably lack Arab brothers from Morocco.

I was hoping for somebody from Morocco or of Moroccan back-ground to provide a relevant opinion. Your post is very well appreciated.

You can find more information at:

JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5] | Page 295 - where you can share news and concerns.

JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool - where you can find relevant technical information thanks to @Manticore . You might wish to take a good look this and following posts: Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen | Page 25 Again thanks to Manticore.

For general threads on JF-17 discussions you can go to JF-17 sub-Section on the Air Force Section: JF-17 Thunder

You can see the latest public demonstration of JF-17 in Dubai last year here: JF-17 Thunder in Dubai Air Show 2013. | Page 7

You might be interested in noting that JF-17 went through at least three design-phases. It was known during the entire design process that JF-17 would be facing Su-30 and Mig-29. It was designed so that this light, nimble, and quick fighter with capable armament can face and challenge these beasts. It is obviously a multi-role light air craft, but it has everything that it needs to compete with far more expensive aircraft. The BVR capability gives it serious deterrence value in a defensive role.

Twin-engine fighters have range and pay load. But often suffer from lower availability rates and typically higher Radar Cross Section (RCS). JF-17 has higher availability rate because it has intelligent diagnostics and easy to service design and only one engine to service. It can generate seriously higher sortie rates. This means that same number of JF-17s as Mig-29 will fly more sorties and provide mission flexibility by having higher availability. In a defensive posture, you can not go wrong with JF-17.

I can go on and on, but I will let you find stuff by yourself.

Any RMAF decision will depend upon its doctrine and posture. In a defensive posture JF-17 has good value, but in an offensive posture, you would need something that can compare with Spanish Eurofighters and beat Algerian SU-30s. You might wish to go with Dassault Rafale (Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in that case.

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## Andalusi Knight

Ahlan feek Akhi L'Ghali, I appreciate your reply and it's a honor for me to stay with you and to be an active member..

When comes to the JF-17, believe me, I was so happy, not only me, but all the members of our group in the FB, when we saw the offer of Chendgu in Marrakesh Airshow 2014, above all of it, the industrial cooperation with the RMAF, because that will open us the gates for more projects in the future, especially with Pakistan, because we bought from you Khalid's tanks the same as Saudi Arabia did..

Returning to our subject, your guess is absolutely right, in order for the RMAF to have a word in our geography, we need to face the Algerian and Spanish Air Forces, JF-17 is a great offer as I mentioned before, but the issue is, the JF-17 is a long term investment, so the time is running against the RMAF, Spain, from a side, has the full support from the EU and from the NATO, and Algeria has their resources (Oil and Gas), so the best option for the moment, is buying a reasonable number of Rafale from France, and all depends on the French offer, because they don't want to give us power, because Spain will put her weights on France, and F-18 won't be a good choice, as you said, has a high RCS, I think the F15 still a better choice, but the financial situation might be not helpful..

I only wish that the RMAF chiefs makes the best decision for our nation..

If I may ask, it will be possible for you, to give me the Radar Range of JF-17 versus the aircraft we mentioned ?

I'm so happy to be between you, and I only hope I can be helpful for you

"In Yansorokom Allah Fala Ghaleba Lakum"

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## SALMAN F

Andalusi Knight said:


> Hi everyone,
> I joined this Pakistani Forum just to answer this thread, I was searching on Google for differences between the Moroccan F-5 Tiger and the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17, and I found the thread, so I was having fun going through the subject and the whole conversations..
> First of all, I would love to notice, that as a Moroccan and Muslim, I'm so proud of the Pakistani Army, who truly works hard in order to have a word in the world community, which I wish nothing but the best for you..
> Returning to the subject, the RMAF got the offer from the Chinese Chendgu and also proposed an industrial cooperation to the RMAF, which is a great offer..
> As you all know, the RMAF has 24 F-16 Block 50/52++, Alpha Jets for training, and Mirage F1 and F-5 Tiger..
> The French Mirage F1 were upgraded to MF2000 lately, which mean, there's no need to replace them for the moment, so what the RMAF is focusing on, is what would replace the F-5 Tiger, and there's too many options as you know..
> Believe it or not, me, as the most of the Moroccans who're interested in the RMAF news, we're too open for the Chinese offer, because that would give us a push, to have more industrial cooperation in the future, making our own fight jets, but the RMAF chiefs, as I guess, are more interested in an aircraft with two engines, because Algeria has the Su-35 and Spain has the F-18 and Eurofighter Typhoon as well, so we need something that would face these at once..
> So from my point of view, I think that the JF-17 offer comes in the 2nd place, and nobody knows what the RMAF is aiming on, as the 1st place..
> I Thank you all, one by one, for being interested in the thread, and I will try to continue the conversation with you..
> Greetings from Morocco


Welcome to the forum are you really andalusi???


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## Andalusi Knight

SALMAN AL-FARSI said:


> Welcome to the forum are you really andalusi???



Thank you brother Salman.. My origins are from Andalusia, from Salamanca to be exact


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## SALMAN F

Andalusi Knight said:


> Thank you brother Salman.. My origins are from Andalusia, from Salamanca to be exact


You are welcome I love al Andalus and her great history

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## Manticore

*discussions thread*
*JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]*
*Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen*

informative threads
*Specifications of JF-17 blk1 based on Dubai Airshow 2011*
*JF-17 Thunder's Armament
JF-17's various initial design phases
JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool*


welcome to the forum, 
*Andalusi Knight*

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## elitepilot09

In my opinion, before the JF-17 platform sees success in the export market there are a few KEY features which it needs (some of these are well on their way):

1. Air to Air refueling probe IN ADDITION to a larger internal fuel tank
2. Minimum of 9 hardpoints
3. Dual seat variant.
4. AESA radar implementation (I imagine that European alternatives are preferred by clients)

I truly believe that Pakistan introduced the JF-17 to the world approximately 4-5 years too early. These 4 key features, in my opinion, are an absolute must in today's fighter export market. Once the JF-17 boasts these capabilities, I guarantee you that the first contract will be signed shortly there after.

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## Kompromat

Andalusi Knight said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I joined this Pakistani Forum just to answer this thread, I was searching on Google for differences between the Moroccan F-5 Tiger and the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17, and I found the thread, so I was having fun going through the subject and the whole conversations.. First of all, I would love to notice, that as a Moroccan and Muslim, I'm so proud of the Pakistani Army, who truly works hard in order to have a word in the world community, which I wish nothing but the best for you..
> 
> Returning to the subject, the RMAF got the offer from the Chinese Chendgu and also proposed an industrial cooperation to the RMAF, which is a great offer. As you all know, the RMAF has 24 F-16 Block 50/52++, Alpha Jets for training, and Mirage F1 and F-5 Tiger. The French Mirage F1 were upgraded to MF2000 lately, which mean, there's no need to replace them for the moment, so what the RMAF is focusing on, is what would replace the F-5 Tiger, and there's too many options as you know.
> 
> Believe it or not, me, as the most of the Moroccans who're interested in the RMAF news, we're too open for the Chinese offer, because that would give us a push, to have more industrial cooperation in the future, making our own fight jets, but the RMAF chiefs, as I guess, are more interested in an aircraft with two engines, because Algeria has the Su-35 and Spain has the F-18 and Eurofighter Typhoon as well, so we need something that would face these at once..
> So from my point of view, I think that the JF-17 offer comes in the 2nd place, and nobody knows what the RMAF is aiming on, as the 1st place.I Thank you all, one by one, for being interested in the thread, and I will try to continue the conversation with you..
> 
> Greetings from Morocco



Welcome aboard brother. Please accept our most cordial eid greetings and gratitude for your support for Pakistan. On this forum, you will find everything you are looking for. If RMAF decides to cooperate with Pakistan/China for JF-17 program, we would hold nothing back from Moroccan brothers. 

Since you mentioned the replacement of the F-5 Tigers, i'd like to post a chart explaining the differences between the JF-17 Thunder Block 1 and the F-20 Tigershark, which was the best F-5 development package ever built but didn't see production. I hope this would put things into perspective. Shukran. Fi Aman Allah

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## Babur Han

Andalusi Knight said:


> Ahlan feek Akhi L'Ghali, I appreciate your reply and it's a honor for me to stay with you and to be an active member..
> 
> When comes to the JF-17, believe me, I was so happy, not only me, but all the members of our group in the FB, when we saw the offer of Chendgu in Marrakesh Airshow 2014, above all of it, the industrial cooperation with the RMAF, because that will open us the gates for more projects in the future, especially with Pakistan, because we bought from you Khalid's tanks the same as Saudi Arabia did..
> *Returning to our subject, your guess is absolutely right, in order for the RMAF to have a word in our geography, we need to face the Algerian and Spanish Air Forces, JF-17 is a great offer as I mentioned before, but the issue is, the JF-17 is a long term investment, so the time is running against the RMAF, Spain, from a side, has the full support from the EU and from the NATO, and Algeria has their resources (Oil and Gas), so the best option for the moment, is buying a reasonable number of Rafale from France, and all depends on the French offer, because they don't want to give us power, because Spain will put her weights on France, and F-18 won't be a good choice, as you said, has a high RCS, I think the F15 still a better choice, but the financial situation might be not helpful..*
> 
> I only wish that the RMAF chiefs makes the best decision for our nation..
> 
> If I may ask, it will be possible for you, to give me the Radar Range of JF-17 versus the aircraft we mentioned ?
> 
> I'm so happy to be between you, and I only hope I can be helpful for you
> 
> "In Yansorokom Allah Fala Ghaleba Lakum"



Welcome to this Forum Brother !

In my Opinion Morocco can counter the Treath from spanish F-18 and EF-2000 not only alone in buying new Fighters ! Is it the Case that France will deliever Rafale to RMAF, would they also deliever Stand - Off Weapons like Scalp EG/Storm Shadow to hit Airbases, Comand & Control Infrastructure in Spain and without Satelitte Intelligence Cruise Missiles are useless !

It is also important to buy a long Range - high Altitude Air Defence System to Counter the spanish Superiority, like S-300, HQ-9 or SAMP-T !

BTW: Eid Mubarak !

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## Luftwaffe

Babur Han said:


> Welcome to this Forum Brother !
> 
> In my Opinion Morocco can counter the Treath from spanish F-18 and EF-2000 not only alone in buying new Fighters ! Is it the Case that France will deliever Rafale to RMAF, would they also deliever Stand - Off Weapons like Scalp EG/Storm Shadow to hit Airbases, Comand & Control Infrastructure in Spain and without Satelitte Intelligence Cruise Missiles are useless !
> 
> It is also important to buy a long Range - high Altitude Air Defence System to Counter the spanish Superiority, like S-300, HQ-9 or SAMP-T !
> 
> BTW: Eid Mubarak !



Hi, why would french let french weapons be used against NATO member Spain?.

Let think out of the box get something that is sanction proof the only offer i see that can counter at reasonable price is China with Radars/SAMs/Naval Ships/Land Attack Cruise Missiles/Air Launch Cruise Missiles/Anti-Radiation Missiles almost every product is available for Exports but i would guess it is their hierarchy and political lot that is more influence by west.

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## Babur Han

Luftwaffe said:


> Hi, why would french let french weapons be used against NATO member Spain?.
> 
> Let think out of the box get something that is sanction proof the only offer i see that can country at reasonable price is China with Radars/SAMs/Naval Ships/Land Attack Cruise Missiles/Air Launch Cruise Missiles/Anti-Radiation Missiles almost every product is available for Exports but i would guess it is their hierarchy and political lot that is more influence by west.



I think in the same way and I highly doubt that even when the french deliever Rafale to Morocco, that they will give them advanced Weapons which seriously impact the strategic Balance between Morocco and Spain !

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## Luftwaffe

Chak Bamu said:


> Are you serious? Man this is NOT a troll thread.



Nishan syndrome, lol.


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## Andalusi Knight

SALMAN AL-FARSI said:


> You are welcome I love al Andalus and her great history



Thank you so much brother Salman, and Inshallah we will return to our glorious history, it's a matter of time 



Manticore said:


> *discussions thread*
> *JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]*
> *Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen*
> 
> informative threads
> *Specifications of JF-17 blk1 based on Dubai Airshow 2011*
> *JF-17 Thunder's Armament
> JF-17's various initial design phases
> JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool*
> 
> welcome to the forum,
> *Andalusi Knight*



Thank you Moderator, I appreciate !!


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## Andalusi Knight

elitepilot09 said:


> In my opinion, before the JF-17 platform sees success in the export market there are a few KEY features which it needs (some of these are well on their way):
> 
> 1. Air to Air refueling probe IN ADDITION to a larger internal fuel tank
> 2. Minimum of 9 hardpoints
> 3. Dual seat variant.
> 4. AESA radar implementation (I imagine that European alternatives are preferred by clients)
> 
> I truly believe that Pakistan introduced the JF-17 to the world approximately 4-5 years too early. These 4 key features, in my opinion, are an absolute must in today's fighter export market. Once the JF-17 boasts these capabilities, I guarantee you that the first contract will be signed shortly there after.



I agree with you when comes to the AESA Radar, because if you would go to the European are more preferred by clients as you say, and when comes to the rest, can be upgraded with no big deal, especially the hardpoints and Air to Air refueling, remember, the RMAF took care of adding Air to Air to their aircraft by themselves, so that wouldn't be a big deal as well, and when comes to the Dual seat variant, I do believe the JF-17 Block 2 will have a Dual seats, if not, than they should seriously think about it..

Believe it or not, the JF-17 is on the right path, Saudi Arabia is studying the project, and Morocco as well, if I'm not wrong Turkey wanted the JF-17 but I have no clue where that ended..

AS most of us see, JF-17 will have a good future in the market, and of course there will be various Blocks following the trend of the market..

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## Babur Han

Andalusi Knight said:


> Believe it or not, the JF-17 is on the right path, Saudi Arabia is studying the project, and Morocco as well, if I'm not wrong Turkey wanted the JF-17 but I have no clue where that ended..



By a visit in China President Gül show interest for JF-17, but there was no interest from Military Officials ! Now, Turkey is focusing on it's own TF-X Project


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## Andalusi Knight

Aeronaut said:


> Welcome aboard brother. Please accept our most cordial eid greetings and gratitude for your support for Pakistan. On this forum, you will find everything you are looking for. If RMAF decides to cooperate with Pakistan/China for JF-17 program, we would hold nothing back from Moroccan brothers.
> 
> Since you mentioned the replacement of the F-5 Tigers, i'd like to post a chart explaining the differences between the JF-17 Thunder Block 1 and the F-20 Tigershark, which was the best F-5 development package ever built but didn't see production. I hope this would put things into perspective. Shukran. Fi Aman Allah
> 
> View attachment 41358
> View attachment 41359
> View attachment 41360
> View attachment 41361



Thank you so much akhi Aeronaut for your welcoming, and Eidkum Mubarak as well, with all the good wishes and all success to your Great Nation, and believe me, I'm the most happy for joining this Forum, until now, I learned a lots about you, I've been surfing and going through your Navy and Land Army, and to be honest with you, it's a major loss for the Moroccan Army not to cooperate with you, except Khalid Tanks and the JF-17 in the near future, I assume there's no additional deals were made between Morocco and Pakistan, and we don't doubt at all, if you asks us for our soul we won't think twice about it..

I read once about the F-20 Tigershark, and I was looking for more information about it on Wikipedia, and I wasn't amazed knowing this aircraft never saw light, because I've never heard of it before being used by a country Air Forces..

I can see that the JF-17 would be the best replacement for the granny, especially after attaching the chart, that shows the difference between the best upgrade of F-5 who wasn't produced, and between the JF-17 Block 1, I only hope the RMAF will make a good decision when comes to the best replacement for the F-5, and JF-17 isn't only better, but the best offer we have on table, comparing to the pricing, and to the industrial cooperation that would open us gates, and turn with profits on our Nations both

I truly appreciate your reply, and I only wish if the Geography was fair to us having you next by, because as you can see, Algeria who's beside us can't be trusted, and I wish you nothing but the success and glory..

Dumta fi R'eayati Allah akhi L'ghali

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## Chak Bamu

Babur Han said:


> I think in the same way and I highly doubt that even when the french deliever Rafale to Morocco, that they will give them advanced Weapons which seriously impact the strategic Balance between Morocco and Spain !



A word of caution: Remember help provided to UK by France in Argentina-UK conflict in 1982. France provided key information about its Exocet missiles to UK to neutralize Argentina's advantage. Argentina was operating Mirage III & Exocet combo to good effect. 

France will never go against its allies to help another.

Rafale can be good to intimidate Algiers, but not Spain.

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## Andalusi Knight

Babur Han said:


> Welcome to this Forum Brother !
> 
> In my Opinion Morocco can counter the Treath from spanish F-18 and EF-2000 not only alone in buying new Fighters ! Is it the Case that France will deliever Rafale to RMAF, would they also deliever Stand - Off Weapons like Scalp EG/Storm Shadow to hit Airbases, Comand & Control Infrastructure in Spain and without Satelitte Intelligence Cruise Missiles are useless !
> 
> It is also important to buy a long Range - high Altitude Air Defence System to Counter the spanish Superiority, like S-300, HQ-9 or SAMP-T !
> 
> BTW: Eid Mubarak !



Ahleen fik Akhi, I appreciate your welcoming..

I totally agree with you, in order to strike the Spanish and Algerian threat, it's necessary to have a LR/HA Air Defense System, because what I believe is the French would never give a full option Rafale to Morocco, with it full arming record..

So when comes back to the Air Defense System to counter the Spanish/Algerian superiority, the S-300 is for sure out of the list, because Algeria own it already, and a year ago General Bennani was in China for the second round, to see what about HQ-9, and I since that time, there's no news anymore, the Moroccan Army is so strange when comes to this, full of secrets, so nobody knows if HQ-9 already exists in Morocco or not, and when comes to the Aster-30 SAMP-T, it's used by the Moroccan Royal Navy, if I'm not wrong in a Frigate that was bought from France, but I don't know which one exactly..

So comparing these three, the S-300 is the best of the three, the second is HQ-9 and the 3rd is the Aster-30 SAMP-T, so I assume is there's no S-400, the HQ-9 is a better choice, and I most notice, that the King Mohammed VI will visit Russia soon, and you never know what the meeting will bring us..

Eidek Mubarak Akhi, I appreciate so much my Brother, wishing to you all the best !!

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## Babur Han

Chak Bamu said:


> A word of caution: Remember help provided to UK by France in Argentina-UK conflict in 1982. France provided key information about its Exocet missiles to UK to neutralize Argentina's advantage. Argentina was operating Mirage III & Exocet combo to good effect.
> 
> France will never go against its allies to help another.
> 
> Rafale can be good to intimidate Algiers, but not Spain.



The french will only make their Money and Plays out the Muslim States against each other ! France as well Spain have a strong interest on a disunited Maghreb !

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## Andalusi Knight

Luftwaffe said:


> Hi, why would french let french weapons be used against NATO member Spain?.
> 
> Let think out of the box get something that is sanction proof the only offer i see that can country at reasonable price is China with Radars/SAMs/Naval Ships/Land Attack Cruise Missiles/Air Launch Cruise Missiles/Anti-Radiation Missiles almost every product is available for Exports but i would guess it is their hierarchy and political lot that is more influence by west.



I totally agree with you, France wouldn't let such thing happen, especially with the Moroccan/Spanish conflicts, but you never know the pressure Morocco can put on France, Saudi Arabia from a side, and USA from another side, we're in a strong position, so the decision will be token by RMAF not France, and I would love to notice, the Moroccan Mirage F-1 was upgraded by France itself, and became the MF2000, so we're talking about the Mirage 2000..



Chak Bamu said:


> A word of caution: Remember help provided to UK by France in Argentina-UK conflict in 1982. France provided key information about its Exocet missiles to UK to neutralize Argentina's advantage. Argentina was operating Mirage III & Exocet combo to good effect.
> 
> France will never go against its allies to help another.
> 
> Rafale can be good to intimidate Algiers, but not Spain.



I totally agree with you, I mentioned before that Spain has the full support from NATO and Europe as well, especially Italy, Germany and France, so the Rafale wouldn't strike the Spanish Air Force, but we most not forget, Allah is by us, doesn't matter what does Spain have on hand, the Moroccans are fighting for their right, and the right always wins, that's Allah promise !!

If the Rafale would be delivered to Morocco with it full strategic missiles, that would be a great deal, if not, than we should look for something else, because the Rafale can stand in the Algerian Su-35, not the Spanish F-18 SH and Eurofighter Typhoon and the NATO unconditional support

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## Andalusi Knight

Babur Han said:


> The french will only make their Money and Plays out the Muslim States against each other ! France as well Spain have a strong interest on a disunited Maghreb !



Exactly, believe it or not, Morocco doesn't consider France as a truthful partner, as you all know, the French/Moroccan friendship went through a lots of stress lately, because of the Sahara problem, and we will never forget what France did in the Region, especially the occupation of Morocco, so it's a matter of time..

We have no choice for the moment, we must seek for the French weapon, and France can't do wrong with Morocco as well, because Morocco won't stand and watch, we can kick the French banks and companies out of our country with no losses from out side as their losses, and nothing to loose really, because we have nothing with France precisely, we have businesses with the European nation, not with France alone, and they all need the cooperation of Morocco, especially the Economical cooperation, remember, the Geography counts, and the Maghreb will never be united, for as long as Polisario Front is supported by Algeria, and the Algerians are ruled by corrupted army and system :/

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## Chak Bamu

A bit Off Topic, but @Andalusi Knight , may I ask you to introduce PDF to a few more Moroccan brothers? We feel we do not have enough people from Maghreb.

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## Andalusi Knight

Chak Bamu said:


> A bit Off Topic, but @Andalusi Knight , may I ask you to introduce PDF to a few more Moroccan brothers? We feel we do not have enough people from Maghreb.



Sure, I will work on inviting my friends and introduce them to PDF by now.. You will have enough of us soon, we spread like fire hehe

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## Kompromat

Andalusi Knight said:


> Thank you so much akhi Aeronaut for your welcoming, and Eidkum Mubarak as well, with all the good wishes and all success to your Great Nation, and believe me, I'm the most happy for joining this Forum, until now, I learned a lots about you, I've been surfing and going through your Navy and Land Army, and to be honest with you, it's a major loss for the Moroccan Army not to cooperate with you, except Khalid Tanks and the JF-17 in the near future, I assume there's no additional deals were made between Morocco and Pakistan, and we don't doubt at all, if you asks us for our soul we won't think twice about it..
> 
> I read once about the F-20 Tigershark, and I was looking for more information about it on Wikipedia, and I wasn't amazed knowing this aircraft never saw light, because I've never heard of it before being used by a country Air Forces..
> 
> I can see that the JF-17 would be the best replacement for the granny, especially after attaching the chart, that shows the difference between the best upgrade of F-5 who wasn't produced, and between the JF-17 Block 1, I only hope the RMAF will make a good decision when comes to the best replacement for the F-5, and JF-17 isn't only better, but the best offer we have on table, comparing to the pricing, and to the industrial cooperation that would open us gates, and turn with profits on our Nations both
> 
> I truly appreciate your reply, and I only wish if the Geography was fair to us having you next by, because as you can see, Algeria who's beside us can't be trusted, and I wish you nothing but the success and glory..
> 
> Dumta fi R'eayati Allah akhi L'ghali



Thank you for your kind words. I would look forward to have further debates with you on this forum.

In regards to the F-20, it was a brilliant aircraft that never saw production because the US Air Force desired the F-16 more than the F-20, even though the F-20 did meet the F-16 in many parameters, defeated it in maneuverability and agility (yes defeated the F-16), however the USAF desired the F-16s better and i think it was the right decision at that time. The US politics was the real reason which killed the tigershark because they didn't allow this aircraft to be exported to a few countries which had a detrimental impact on the program.



Andalusi Knight said:


> Sure, I will work on inviting my friends and introduce them to PDF by now.. You will have enough of us soon, we spread like fire hehe



We always favour quality members. 

Please introduce yourself to our members by creating a new thread in this section.

Members Introduction

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## Chak Bamu

@Andalusi Knight

It would be a good idea to introduce yourself here: Members Introduction

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## Andalusi Knight

Aeronaut said:


> Thank you for your kind words. I would look forward to have further debates with you on this forum.
> 
> In regards to the F-20, it was a brilliant aircraft that never saw production because the US Air Force desired the F-16 more than the F-20, even though the F-20 did meet the F-16 in many parameters, defeated it in maneuverability and agility (yes defeated the F-16), however the USAF desired the F-16s better and i think it was the right decision at that time. The US politics was the real reason which killed the tigershark because they didn't allow this aircraft to be exported to a few countries which had a detrimental impact on the program.
> 
> 
> 
> We always favour quality members.
> 
> Please introduce yourself to our members by creating a new thread in this section.
> 
> Members Introduction



You're most welcome, and I'm looking forward having debates with you, with a pleasure !

About the F-20, I'm short when comes to the difference in between, and we all see the reason in the American decision back then, the F-16 has a history, and won't take them efforts to work on it marketing, as the F-16s who're globally the most wanted..

Working on the F-16 was a great deal, because in order to work on the F-20, doesn't matter who defeats the other, they will need to withdraw, somehow, the F-16 from their stocks, in order to have profits and go through the F-20 program, because I don't think it would be wise from them to keep them both, especially if the F-20 defeats the F-16s..

And I promise, I will drive a quality Moroccan members to your forum, I just contacted three groups where I'm subscribed, so it's a matter of time..

And I just created my thread introducing myself to PDF



Chak Bamu said:


> @Andalusi Knight
> 
> It would be a good idea to introduce yourself here: Members Introduction



Sure, I just introduced myself to your community

He's a link to the thread: Salamu Alaykum PDF <3

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## Cheetah786

Chak Bamu said:


> Guys I am already discussing it on the JF-17 thread. My intention for starting a thread in the Arab Defense Section was to get input from someone from the region. Let us hear from someone from Morrocco.



Sir jee i am not Morocon, but wanna go there to visit does that count.

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## Mav3rick

KalaGhoda said:


> i'm talking about starter kits..not 29Ks..*these aircrafts are warbirds which are proven*. the missiles, radars are proven in another aircraft to this aircraft fight. jf17 is not. it says on wiki that jf17 is a derivation from F7 with a cheaper version of the j10 avionics package and same missiles.
> 
> the advantages of choosing a basic version of a mig29 or a su30 mkms will be many more compared to jf17 as a matter of fact. if the russians offer them a good deal, they would choose these birds anyday. the whole point here being if and good deal.
> 
> why am i saying russian planes ? most of these deals and upgrades and new birds for AF kinda news revolve around replacing the mig21 variants. worldwide. how jf17 came to be.
> 
> point is, these guys have dealt with russians and flown their plane. F7 was a mig21 after all. the russians have better chance at retaining the mig21 customers. compared to the chinese.



Proven to be no match for the western aircraft. The only thing Mig-29's have achieved over the years is humiliation and defeat. Why you think a county would consider the Migs despite their extremely poor combat record is just beyond me!

P.S. The Chinese have a much better history of maintaining their version of 'Russian' origin Jets and their industry has grown to the point where all that they are really depended on Russia is generally the Jet Engine. And that will not carry for too long either. In other words, it would be foolish to discount the Chinese and their 'offers'.


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## Chak Bamu

*NO MORE OT POSTS!*


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## OrionHunter

rockstar08 said:


> our wish list to sell JF is very long , but i know that none of our Arab brother will ever buy this plane .


Why so? The JF-17 is one of the most cost effective planes in the world. For $15 - $20 million, there's plenty of bang for the buck in the Thunder, which translates to cost of 1 x F-35 Lightning = 6 x JF-17 Thunders.


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## Chak Bamu

OrionHunter said:


> Why so? The JF-17 is one of the most cost effective planes in the world. For $15 - $20 million, there's plenty of bang for the buck in the Thunder, which translates to cost of 1 x F-35 Lightning = 6 x JF-17 Thunders.



Good in a Hi-Lo mix as the Lo part. Good for middle tier air-forces or lower tier air forces who want an edge over rivals.


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## Luftwaffe

Chak Bamu said:


> Good in a Hi-Lo mix as the Lo part. Good for middle tier air-forces or lower tier air forces who want an edge over rivals.



Arabs have a different mind set.


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## rockstar08

OrionHunter said:


> Why so? The JF-17 is one of the most cost effective planes in the world. For $15 - $20 million, there's plenty of bang for the buck in the Thunder, which translates to cost of 1 x F-35 Lightning = 6 x JF-17 Thunders.



arabs wants west " Maal " ...


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## Babur Han

Andalusi Knight said:


> Ahleen fik Akhi, I appreciate your welcoming..
> 
> I totally agree with you, in order to strike the Spanish and Algerian threat, it's necessary to have a LR/HA Air Defense System, because what I believe is the French would never give a full option Rafale to Morocco, with it full arming record..
> 
> So when comes back to the Air Defense System to counter the Spanish/Algerian superiority, the S-300 is for sure out of the list, because Algeria own it already, and a year ago General Bennani was in China for the second round, to see what about HQ-9, and I since that time, there's no news anymore, the Moroccan Army is so strange when comes to this, full of secrets, so nobody knows if HQ-9 already exists in Morocco or not, and when comes to the Aster-30 SAMP-T, it's used by the Moroccan Royal Navy, if I'm not wrong in a Frigate that was bought from France, but I don't know which one exactly..
> 
> So comparing these three, the S-300 is the best of the three, the second is HQ-9 and the 3rd is the Aster-30 SAMP-T, so I assume is there's no S-400, the HQ-9 is a better choice, and I most notice, that the King Mohammed VI will visit Russia soon, and you never know what the meeting will bring us..
> 
> Eidek Mubarak Akhi, I appreciate so much my Brother, wishing to you all the best !!



It's a Question how the US see an order of HQ-9 by Morocco, Turkey have shortlistet HQ-9 on the first Place to built up an LR - HA SAM Network but it comes so much Pressure from the US to not an order !

The Frigate Morocco ordered from France is a FREMM Type, it's eqippt with Aster 15 SAM with a Range up to 30 KM ! The moroccan FREMM have only limited AAW Capabillities and it's main duty is ASW ! With Aster 30 and other Radars optimized for AAW Duty Morocco had one Frigate with similar Capabillities like the spanisch Alvaro de Bazan DDG !

About RMAF in General we can talk in this Thread !

Royal Moroccan Armed Forces | Page 16

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## flamer84

I don't understand this continuous reference to Spain,Morocco won't ever go to war with them unless it has a suicide wish.

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## Babur Han

flamer84 said:


> I don't understand this continuous reference to Spain,Morocco won't ever go to war with them unless it has a suicide wish.



It mean not that Morocco should declare War to Spain or should take back enclaves Ceuta and Melilla by using Military Power. Morocco must to be Prepared if some events go out of Control ! In the near of the Canary Island as well in spanish and moroccan Waters Oil and Gas is discovered.



> *British-Turkish Genel Energy confirmed the presence of Oil in Morocco but has yet to say if it is commercial or Not*
> By Staff member
> In National
> Mar 12th, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo Credits: Genel Energy
> 
> British -Turkish oil exploration company, Genel Energy, “confirmed” the presence of oil at the Juby Maritime 1 license between Tan-Tan and Tarfaya, but has yet to say if the oil discovered is commercial or not.
> 
> A statement from the company read:
> 
> “We started our first offshore drilling in January 2014. Currently, we are at a depth of 3,100 meters at the well Cap Juby . It remains to be drilled 600 meters to reach our target depth. So far, we have confirmed the presence of oil in this area,”



British-Turkish Genel Energy confirmed the presence of Oil in Morocco but has yet to say if it is commercial or Not - The Moroccan Times







Here moroccan Marketeer try to Cross the Border to Ceuta to sell their goods, but spanish Guardia Civil let them not go in ! In the worst Case such event could go out of Control !

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## Andalusi Knight

Babur Han said:


> It's a Question how the US see an order of HQ-9 by Morocco, Turkey have shortlistet HQ-9 on the first Place to built up an LR - HA SAM Network but it comes so much Pressure from the US to not an order !
> 
> The Frigate Morocco ordered from France is a FREMM Type, it's eqippt with Aster 15 SAM with a Range up to 30 KM ! The moroccan FREMM have only limited AAW Capabillities and it's main duty is ASW ! With Aster 30 and other Radars optimized for AAW Duty Morocco had one Frigate with similar Capabillities like the spanisch Alvaro de Bazan DDG !
> 
> About RMAF in General we can talk in this Thread !
> 
> Royal Moroccan Armed Forces | Page 16



Ahlen akhi

When comes to the Morocco ordering the HQ-9, US have nothing to say, only if they have a better offer, and they can't put any pressures on Morocco, the quite contrary, Morocco can pressure US to have any weapon desired

I will explain this to you, because as I can see from your replies, you're not missing anything, especially the news which I'm fascinated..

Remember, the King Hassan II protected the Jews of Morocco the time they were exhausted by European Christians, and by the Nazi especially, he did that for a reason, because the Jews are too powerful when comes to finances, he opened them the gates to go and have a life in USA, and that was the secret of the Moroccan progress, whenever something happen, or about to happen, these Moroccan Jews, who owns today the biggest companies, and who supports the Congressman, are simply a Lobby who're loyal to their Origin, so that the secret, why USA dropped the request in the UN, after they wanted to extend the rules and permission of MINURSO, the next day Morocco was absolutely upset, and canceled the coming of US Marines for trainings in Morocco with the Moroccan Royal Army, and the King sent a high quality of businessman to Russia, and before their return to Morocco, Russia offered to Morocco a submarine, next day the US President took the lady who came with the request out of her position and put somebody else, and he apologized to Morocco, so that shows you how the Pressures can be, especially that we have Saudi Arabia and the Golf that support Morocco unconditionally, and Russia who's always giving offers to Morocco, because they want to take the US role in Morocco.. So the whole subject is way bigger then USA itself, as I said, nothing they can do, except putting a better offer on our table..

And when comes to the Frigate, from that side, you must know that the Marines has a big share, because they're renewing everything, somehow it was neglected, due the high expenses, and what made them taking care of the Marines, is the Algerian Marines overwhelming, and Spain as well..

So when comes to the Aster-15, as we all know, there's another product with a higher range, I think it's Aster-30, seriously I don't know why the Aster-15, but maybe it's possible to be modified later, or because if they would ask for another one, with higher range, France wouldn't accept, there's something behind this Frigate as I believe, and even in the Moroccan groups, we can't get to the point, we all expect for surprises as we used to be surprised by them..

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## Andalusi Knight

flamer84 said:


> I don't understand this continuous reference to Spain,Morocco won't ever go to war with them unless it has a suicide wish.



In order to understand the issue between Morocco against Algeria and Spain, you should turn back to the history, which I'm going to explain to you by myself and if you want to make more researched you'll do right..

Spain, was occupied by Morocco for over 800 years, Andalusia was belonging to Morocco at some point, because the Andalusi Princes couldn't support the Christians attacks, that the whole Churches of Europe was supporting by solider and weapon, in order to free Andalusia from the Muslims, so the Moroccan Empire back then, was supporting the Andalusi Princes in their wars, and they always were defeating the Christians over there, one of the Moroccan Kings who supported Andalusia is Yusuf ibn Tashfin, you can look for him in Wikipedia, so he lead the Moroccan Army back then going to Spain, and defeated the Spanish and European Army in a war called Zallaqa, you could look for it "Battle of Zallaqa", so this war will give you an idea about the Moroccan Spanish conflict, the Andalus was defeated at the end, and the reason was because of the Andalusi Princes, because of family problems, one of them was mad and he helped the Christians against his brothers, so they were freeing Andalusia state by state to the Christians, the time that Moroccan Empire wanted to help it was too late, because the inside problem wasn't expected..
Above all of it, Spain wanted to occupy Morocco, and they got an incredible resistance by the Moroccan Citizens, because the time Spain attacked, Morocco was going in a War against France in the south, so the Moroccans Citizens defended themselves, and that was the time when Spain had the biggest defeat in their Early History, 3,000 solider from the Moroccan side, and 27,500 solider from the Spanish side, 1,000 died from the Moroccan side, and 13,300 from the Spanish side, so they withdraw their Army because if they would continue, no solider would go back alive to Spain, and another war as well, Morocco and Ottoman support, against Spanish and Portugal Empire, 60,000 from our side, and 300,000 from Spain and Portugal, no one died from the Moroccan side except the Moroccan king, because he was who leads the Army, and from their side, the whole Portugal royal family was killed, and a Spanish king, 8,000 died and 15,000 captured and the rest ran back to Spain..
The Moroccan Spanish conflict is so old, we always had the victory, with basic weapon, and man who loves death more than life..
The Moroccan Spanish conflict will never end, only if they kill us all, or we kill them all, a war will come, it's a matter of time..
When comes to what's before the war, its always possible to take Ceuta and Mellilia back without any war, and that's what the King is looking for, he built the largest Port next to Ceuta, who's classified as the largest in Africa, who beats the Moroccan occupied port in Ceuta, even the Moroccans who comes from Europe, they prefer entering Morocco by the Moroccan Port than the Spanish, so that kills the Spanish economy from a side, and secondly, a city, whole city is created next to Ceuta, will be based on the goods that comes from Europe and the whole world, because there's too many Moroccans who live on buying goods from Ceuta, and selling it in Morocco, the time they stop them, these families will have nothing to eat, so they're building a Moroccan project in Parallel, to kill the economy of Ceuta..
Just an additional information, Ceuta gets water, electricity, internet, food and all the basics from Morocco, and another thing, my city is the closest to Ceuta, called Tétouan, we go to Ceuta without a Visa, we're allowed, and the rest of Morocco isn't allowed, if Morocco applies the Visa to us the Tétouani, we no longer can enter Ceuta, and the Spanish economy will absolutely die, that why Spain lately is running in order to please the Moroccan side, the Spanish King was lately in Morocco, in order to study the future mutual projects, so I'm telling you, it's a matter of time and we open them the hell doors 

This is a picture of the Moroccan Empire, and as you can see, Andalusia was a part of the Moroccan Empire, Algeria as well, and several countries of Africa

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## Babur Han

Andalusi Knight said:


> Remember, the King Hassan II protected the Jews of Morocco the time they were exhausted by European Christians, and by the Nazi especially, he did that for a reason, because the Jews are too powerful when comes to finances, he opened them the gates to go and have a life in USA, and that was the secret of the Moroccan progress, whenever something happen, or about to happen, these Moroccan Jews, who owns today the biggest companies, and who supports the Congressman, are simply a Lobby who're loyal to their Origin, so that the secret, why USA dropped the request in the UN, after they wanted to extend the rules and permission of MINURSO, the next day Morocco was absolutely upset, and canceled the coming of US Marines for trainings in Morocco with the Moroccan Royal Army, and the King sent a high quality of businessman to Russia, and before their return to Morocco, Russia offered to Morocco a submarine, next day the US President took the lady who came with the request out of her position and put somebody else, and he apologized to Morocco, so that shows you how the Pressures can be, especially that we have Saudi Arabia and the Golf that support Morocco unconditionally, and Russia who's always giving offers to Morocco, because they want to take the US role in Morocco.. So the whole subject is way bigger then USA itself, as I said, nothing they can do, except putting a better offer on our table..



Turkey also protectet Jews from Europe which were fled from Nationasozialism, even the Ottoman Empire providet the spanish Jews from spanisch Reconquista. Change it something on Situation that the US won't let happen a Deal with China for HQ-9 ? Ok, Morocco is no NATO Country like Turkey, this can be some Advantage !

All the way I hope for Morocco the best !

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## Andalusi Knight

Thas video about Moroccans getting mad in the Moroccan Spanish borders, after the Spanish Police stopped the Moroccans from entering for no reason






And that's a video about the King opening the Port, that killed the economy of Spain, because we used to bring our stuff from Europe and USA and ME, either from Casablanca Port, or Ceuta, but now, we have our second port, which is Tangier-Med Port, the rest of the Ports of the Kingdom are for traveling only, but these two that I mentioned, are for business and traveling, importation and exportation as you can see in the video..








Babur Han said:


> Turkey also protectet Jews from Europe which were fled from Nationasozialism, even the Ottoman Empire providet the spanish Jews from spanisch Reconquista. Change it something on Situation that the US won't let happen a Deal with China for HQ-9 ? Ok, Morocco is no NATO Country like Turkey, this can be some Advantage !
> 
> All the way I hope for Morocco the best !



As I said my dear friend, our advantage, besides the Moroccan Jews, who're not only citizens in USA, but businessman that owns Banks and International Companies, so these Moroccan Jews, supports the Congressman, and push them to stand against anything would harm Morocco, they were the one who made a mess in USA in order for Obama to apologize for what happened, and besides this, the Golf, Saudi Arabia and UAE and Qatar and the rest, they support the Moroccan Kingdom unconditionally, for too many reasons, that requires an independent thread to talk about it, and above all of it, USA won't do something wrong, because at anytime, the King can turn his head toward Russia, and USA will loose of course, because there's no passage to the Middle East and Africa only from Morocco, remember, Geography counts

And from our side, we wish nothing but the best for Turkey, our friendship is maybe the oldest in the Region, you were our neighbors not long time ago

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## BleedGreen10

Morocco has a pretty small and relatively weak airforce, along with a small defence budget, i think jf 17 will serve the need of their airforce well as it has a low unit cost.


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## Andalusi Knight

BleedGreen10 said:


> Morocco has a pretty small and relatively weak airforce, along with a small defence budget, i think jf 17 will serve the need of their airforce well as it has a low unit cost.



Not really, the RMAF updates their aircraft only for what we need, if we would buy an F-16 6yrs by now, it wouldn't be as advanced and developed as much as the one we have right now, so as you can see, we don't buy to stock, we buy to use, and we buy what we need only, because health and education and national economy is more important than buying an aircraft that won't be used.. The Mirage F1 was upgraded to the Mirage 2000, which is great, the Alpha Jet is for the training only, the F5 Tiger will be changed this year, which mean, it's a matter of time to take a decision, and right away, we can extend the arsenal with no big deal, and the JF-17 offer wasn't rejected, but came a little bit late, because the RMAF is aiming on the Rafale and F15, and what's more important for the moment than aircraft, is the long range defense system, and I wish if we could get the S400 from Russia, the King is visiting Russia the next month so lets see what the visit will bring us

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## Babur Han

Andalusi Knight said:


> The Moroccan Spanish conflict is so old, we always had the victory, with basic weapon, and man who loves death more than life..
> *The Moroccan Spanish conflict will never end, only if they kill us all, or we kill them all, a war will come, it's a matter of time..
> 
> When comes to what's before the war, its always possible to take Ceuta and Mellilia back without any war, and that's what the King is looking for, he built the largest Port next to Ceuta, who's classified as the largest in Africa, who beats the Moroccan occupied port in Ceuta*, even the Moroccans who comes from Europe, they prefer entering Morocco by the Moroccan Port than the Spanish, so that kills the Spanish economy from a side, and secondly, a city, whole city is created next to Ceuta, will be based on the goods that comes from Europe and the whole world, because there's too many Moroccans who live on buying goods from Ceuta, and selling it in Morocco, the time they stop them, these families will have nothing to eat, so they're building a Moroccan project in Parallel, to kill the economy of Ceuta..



Has Spain done any Steps against the Project "Tanger-Med"?

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## Andalusi Knight

Babur Han said:


> Has Spain done any Steps against the Project "Tanger-Med"?



Spain have nothing to do except to watch and stare, this is our land, and we can build it all ports, and right now, they're building a port close by "Tanger-Med" for the Marines, to host the Frigates and Submarines and Patrols, the news said that Spain is worried from this Military Port, but nothing they can do again..

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## Babur Han

Andalusi Knight said:


> Spain have nothing to do except to watch and stare, this is our land, and we can build it all ports, and right now, they're building a port close by "Tanger-Med" for the Marines, to host the Frigates and Submarines and Patrols, *the news said that Spain is worried from this Military Port*, but nothing they can do again..



This mean Tanger Med is also used by RMN ?

BTW: I have other Questions regarding possible turkish - moroccan Military Cooperation, which go here off Topic ! That's why I want to conclude some Discusions in this Thread : Royal Moroccan Armed Forces | Page 16

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## Andalusi Knight

Babur Han said:


> This mean Tanger Med is also used by RMN ?
> 
> BTW: I have other Questions regarding possible turkish - moroccan Military Cooperation, which go here off Topic ! That's why I want to conclude some Discusions in this Thread : Royal Moroccan Armed Forces | Page 16



Tanger Med isn't used by the RMN, but a new Port, will be built, next to Tanger Med, will be for the Military use, exclusive for RMN like the one who's in Casablanca..

The King Mohammed VI, since he took the lead of the Kingdom at 1999, the whole system of the Kingdom went through a complete update, and right now, the biggest project of Morocco is the Advanced Regional, which mean, each Region, will take care of itself, each region will have kind of a President and become like states, Tétouan-Tangier are the Region number 16 in the Moroccan Chart, so there's several projects in Tétouan and Tangier lately, Ports and Military airport and Wind Energy and Ocean Energy, to build an independent economy, and of course a share of profits will go to fix internal issues of some other regions, without forgetting that the King 4yrs ago, gave the order to build 5 new cities in Morocco, and they're in progress right now..

I will visit the discussions in the RMAF thread my dear brother

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## Zarvan

Andalusi Knight said:


> Tanger Med isn't used by the RMN, but a new Port, will be built, next to Tanger Med, will be for the Military use, exclusive for RMN like the one who's in Casablanca..
> 
> The King Mohammed VI, since he took the lead of the Kingdom at 1999, the whole system of the Kingdom went through a complete update, and right now, the biggest project of Morocco is the Advanced Regional, which mean, each Region, will take care of itself, each region will have kind of a President and become like states, Tétouan-Tangier are the Region number 16 in the Moroccan Chart, so there's several projects in Tétouan and Tangier lately, Ports and Military airport and Wind Energy and Ocean Energy, to build an independent economy, and of course a share of profits will go to fix internal issues of some other regions, without forgetting that the King 4yrs ago, gave the order to build 5 new cities in Morocco, and they're in progress right now..
> 
> I will visit the discussions in the RMAF thread my dear brother


Morocco needs to increase its defence budge and should have at least 126 4.5 generation fighter jets and Navy with at least 12 Frigates and 6 submarines and 24 + missile boats and also train its forces in better way

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## Andalusi Knight

Zarvan said:


> Morocco needs to increase its defence budge and should have at least 126 4.5 generation fighter jets and Navy with at least 12 Frigates and 6 submarines and 24 + missile boats and also train its forces in better way



That's what we are looking forward to achieve, but 126 4.5G fighter jets won't be easy, so we're trying to make the best out of the fight jets we have right now, by updating the Mirage F1 to the Mirage 2000, and by updating the Alpha Jet and the F5 Tiger, but for the moment they're working for replacing the F5 Tiger first, because the life of that granny can't be extended anymore, and then to bring a sister for the F16 Block 50/50+ or to make them at least 60 units..

When comes to the navy, for the moment we have 1 FREMM Frigate (701) and we have 3 Sigma-Class Corvette FMMM (613,614,615) and 22 Patrols, some of them will be out of service in the next couple years, which mean they need to replace them, and for the moment there's no submarines, there's an offer from Russia "Amur-1650" that the RMN are studying, but 6 submarines would be a lots for now for our budget, maybe in the future, and when comes to the Training, we train each year with USA and UK and FR, and we have an independent Military school, the Military chiefs of Africa studied and trained in Morocco, so nothing about the Royal Academy nor the training I guess..

The short resources of Morocco are the only problem that stands between the present and what you said, we can't extend the Military budget while we have health and education and economy and SC researches to nourish, and thanks to Saudi Arabia that supports Morocco financially especially when comes to the Army, it's a matter of time that we start taking our oil out, and then the story will be different

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## BleedGreen10

Andalusi Knight said:


> Not really, the RMAF updates their aircraft only for what we need, if we would buy an F-16 6yrs by now, it wouldn't be as advanced and developed as much as the one we have right now, so as you can see, we don't buy to stock, we buy to use, and we buy what we need only, because health and education and national economy is more important than buying an aircraft that won't be used.. The Mirage F1 was upgraded to the Mirage 2000, which is great, the Alpha Jet is for the training only, the F5 Tiger will be changed this year, which mean, it's a matter of time to take a decision, and right away, we can extend the arsenal with no big deal, and the JF-17 offer wasn't rejected, but came a little bit late, because the RMAF is aiming on the Rafale and F15, and what's more important for the moment than aircraft, is the long range defense system, and I wish if we could get the S400 from Russia, the King is visiting Russia the next month so lets see what the visit will bring us



Shouldnt a country the size of morocco have a slightly bigger inventory of combat aircraft? i hope you guys manage to get the Rafale as it's a pretty badass aircraft


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## Chak Bamu

@flamer84 , Go easy on @Andalusi Knight . He is new here.

I had to delete your post for being Off Topic. You can address him in some other thread. I just think he probably mixed up some history, and you totally mis-understood him. He was probably talking about Yusuf bin Tashfain(11th Century?) which you took to be the Arab Conquest of 7th Century.

Anyways, no more OT. You can discuss history elsewhere. Let this thread stay focused on its title.

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## Babur Han

flamer84 said:


> Get over yourself,you're no match for Spain militarily and economically.They would crush in an instant,not to mention that NATO and the EU will help them.You tried landing some soldiers on some uninhabited Spanish islands a few years ago and they booted you out immediately.



It is unthinkable that Morocco beginn an Agression to retake Ceuta and Melilla, they know that this is an suicidal Act ! Like we have seen in Videos posted by me and Andalusi Knight, Riots can got out of Control and Spain will establish as Answer a Security Zone. The Security Zone is seen by Morocco as Act Against it's Teretorial Integrity... At the End war begann ! In another Case Oil and Gas exploration in disputet Areas !

These are the most logic Reasons for the start of a possible spanish - moroccan War !

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## Chak Bamu

@Andalusi Knight , beware of some Pakistani posters. Not only do they prescribe long and impossible wish lists for Pakistan, but do so for other Muslim countries also. Just ignore them and stay focused on the thread.

We have one very famous poster who has been banned many times but he keeps coming back with new IDs. He never shies from prescribing $ 10 Billion arms deals for aircraft and submarines, and tanks, and what-not. If you learn to ignore, you will have a happier time at PDF.

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## Andalusi Knight

BleedGreen10 said:


> Shouldnt a country the size of morocco have a slightly bigger inventory of combat aircraft? i hope you guys manage to get the Rafale as it's a pretty badass aircraft



You're absolutely right, we've 3500km length of oceans borders and 446 550km2 of surface, we absolutely need more combat aircraft and helicopters, and more frigates and submarines and patrols, and more air defense systems, but the budget is limited comparing to our goals, so it's a matter of time..

And for the moment, they're seeking for a Rafale with it full options and full arsenal, or for an F-15, to be a companion for the F-16 Block 50/52+ and of course the program of replacing the F5 Tiger which is the purpose of the thread


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## Babur Han

Andalusi Knight said:


> And for the moment, they're seeking for a *Rafale with it full options and full arsenal*, or for an F-15, to be a companion for the F-16 Block 50/52+ and of course the program of replacing the F5 Tiger which is the purpose of the thread



Does it also mean Cruise Missiles ?

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## Andalusi Knight

flamer84 said:


> Get over yourself,you're no match for Spain militarily and economically.They would crush in an instant,not to mention that NATO and the EU will help them.You tried landing some soldiers on some uninhabited Spanish islands a few years ago and they booted you out immediately.



How did you knew that we're not a match for Spain militarily and economically ? The Spanish economy stands on the EU aids, Spanish 30yrs back was a desert, without the Golf and EU investments, and for the moment, with the Spanish confessions, the Moroccan economy is way stronger than the Spanish.. Spain, especially right now, they're going through crises, families without job, without nothing to eat, and without an income to pay their expenses, everyone who has debts in Spain is threaten by banks to be token to jail, and Spain is seeking for the Moroccan help when comes to the economy, my city is 15km away from Spain, and believe it or not, Spanish are working here in constructions and painting and cleaning our dirt..

Morocco was an Empire before a Kingdom, we have the eldest Royal Family in the world, a Family who live for this country, and they know better, they won't go in a war they would loose, you're right, Spain is a member in the NATO, and EU, but do you know what happens if Spain attacks Morocco first ? Then they no longer can get help from NATO and EU..

For the moment, when you talk about EU, the thing that should come to your mind is France, Belgium, Germany, Italy and Netherlands, because these countries has a good economy, the income of Mercedes and BMW is equal to the annual income of Spain, and you most know, the EU is going through economy crises, the Euro currency is dying in parallel with US Dollars, the countries I mentioned can't support nourish the Euro by themselves, crises in Spain and Greece and Portugal and Hungary and Ukraine, at some point they will all go back to their old currencies, do you have an idea what's going to happen then ? We're preparing for that stage kid, because it's a matter of time..

It's not all about the weapon, if they have weapon we have Lord, Allah who promise us the glory !!



Babur Han said:


> It is unthinkable that Morocco beginn an Agression to retake Ceuta and Melilla, they know that this is an suicidal Act ! Like we have seen in Videos posted by me and Andalusi Knight, Riots can got out of Control and Spain will establish as Answer a Security Zone. The Security Zone is seen by Morocco as Act Against it's Teretorial Integrity... At the End war begann ! In another Case Oil and Gas exploration in disputet Areas !
> 
> These are the most logic Reasons for the start of a possible spanish - moroccan War !



I like the way you analyze things brother, I truly like you !



Chak Bamu said:


> @flamer84 , Go easy on @Andalusi Knight . He is new here.
> 
> I had to delete your post for being Off Topic. You can address him in some other thread. I just think he probably mixed up some history, and you totally mis-understood him. He was probably talking about Yusuf bin Tashfain(11th Century?) which you took to be the Arab Conquest of 7th Century.
> 
> Anyways, no more OT. You can discuss history elsewhere. Let this thread stay focused on its title.



I apologize for being Off Topic, I needed to explain what does the Moroccan Spanish conflict has to do with the history, because everything is based on that history that I trained to simplify, I apologize again



Chak Bamu said:


> @Andalusi Knight , beware of some Pakistani posters. Not only do they prescribe long and impossible wish lists for Pakistan, but do so for other Muslim countries also. Just ignore them and stay focused on the thread.
> 
> We have one very famous poster who has been banned many times but he keeps coming back with new IDs. He never shies from prescribing $ 10 Billion arms deals for aircraft and submarines, and tanks, and what-not. If you learn to ignore, you will have a happier time at PDF.



I will, I joined this forum for several reason, first of them because of that thread, and because the forum is Pakistani, which I want to know more about the Pakistani Army, and because I read the comments of brothers asking for a Moroccan member to join the debate, I won't leave the PDF unless you ask me to, and for as long as I'm here, I'm ignoring these who loves to spread their ignorance..

"The reason there's so much ignorance is that those who have it are so eager to share it." Frank A. Clark.



Babur Han said:


> Does it also mean Cruise Missiles ?



Exactly, doesn't make sense to buy the Rafale, without it full option arsenal.. Don't you think ?

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## Babur Han

Andalusi Knight said:


> Morocco was an Empire before a Kingdom, we have the eldest Royal Family in the world, a Family who live for this country, and they know better, they won't go in a war they would loose, you're right, Spain is a member in the NATO, and EU, but do you know what happens if Spain attacks Morocco first ? Then they no longer can get help from NATO and EU..



Times have changed sice the 11.09.2001, during blinding by Media People in Europe are full of hate of Islam ! In an event of a Crisis which beginn with Riots for example Morocco and it's People will be blamed for the Crisis, so far far Spain will recieve strong politic and public Support even in Event of Agression !

If Turkey for example kill some PKK Terrorist european Media would call this Massacre ! 




Andalusi Knight said:


> I like the way you analyze things brother, I truly like you !



Shoukran !



Andalusi Knight said:


> Exactly, doesn't make sense to buy the Rafale, without it full option arsenal.. Don't you think ?



I say the same, but I not expect that France will offer full strategic Capabillities !

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## flamer84

Andalusi Knight said:


> my city is 15km away from Spain, and believe it or not, Spanish are working here in constructions and painting and cleaning our dirt..



 

Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia........1.415 trillion $ economy ! 30.400$ per capita !

Morocco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia....115 billion $ economy...3500$ per capita !

Anyway,i'll listen to @Chak Bamu and be on my way,you're clearly living in a fantasy world.

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## Andalusi Knight

flamer84 said:


> Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia........1.415 trillion $ economy ! 30.400$ per capita !
> 
> Morocco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia....115 billion $ economy...3500$ per capita !
> 
> Anyway,i'll listen to @Chak Bamu and be on my way,you're clearly living in a fantasy world.



It's true, I'm a Proud Moroccan, but it doesn't mean that I will be talking nonsense in order to show my country in power position

You won't know better than I, what you brought are numbers, and what I see in my place, is different

Did "your" Wikipedia told you that Spanish percentage of unemployment is above 25% ?

So what should I believe, the numbers you brought ? or what my eyes see ?

I see Spanish and French people working in my country, and believe me, they're not working with suits and ties

They're working the jobs, that the Moroccans won't work even if they would die with hunger

---------------------------------------

As US domestic migration settles back down into familiar patterns, the international scene continues to surprise. The stubborn economic crisis in Europe is largely to blame. The resulting talent flows are downright weird:

For generations, Moroccans have immigrated to Europe for work but now, in a surprising illustration of Europe's economic crisis, that trend is reversing –Europeans are coming to Morocco in search of jobs.

It's "*the world upside down*," writes Hein de Haas, co-director of the International Migration Institute, affiliated with Oxford University.

The number of Spaniards officially registered as residents in Morocco quadrupled between 2003 and 2011, according to the National Statistics Institute of Spain. Tens of thousands more are now believed to be in Morocco illegally. Before the crisis, Martinez says, no one in Spain ever thought they would come to Morocco for work.

--------------------------------

*Spain is no exception to the “reverse immigration” that has resulted from the economic crisis plaguing Europe. Today, the number of Spanish immigrants in search of a job in Tangier has amounted to over 5000 immigrants.
*
According Spanish the news website Economia Digital, the unemployment rate in the southern Iberian country has exceeded *30 percent*. As a corollary, jobless Spanish nationals are increasingly flocking to what they now see as the “Moroccan Eldorado.”

There are about 5,000 undocumented Spanish workers in *Tangier*, according to the same source. “Despite their failure to get a residence permit in Morocco, these immigrants decide to stay in the kingdom to continue working without a contract,” Anwar Zibaoui, a specialist in economic trade between Europe and the southern Mediterranean, said according to a report by Yabiladi.

The Spanish immigrants’ choice of Tangier is not surprising. The northern city is an ideal work destination for them, as it shares a rich history with Spain that stretches back to the 16th century. The Spanish language is widely spoken in the northern segment of the Kingdom. Unlike other Moroccan cities where French dominates the job market and administrations, Spanish is predominantly used in this area of the country.

---------------------------

I don't want to be OT, and I don't know how to send private messages, because I would love to send you subjects, were made from very well knows TV channels, who talks about this reverse immigration of Spanish, not only the Spanish but the French as well, you must know the Spanish situation in order to understand, people are running business and the whole business is working with debts, soon the business is closed by the bank, the owner goes to the jail, and workers are all unemployed, doesn't happen one in a million in Spain, happens to everyone, the constructions field in Spain is absolutely dead, too many buildings are left at the middle of building, and I've been looking for Video reports, and they're all in Arabic, because Moroccan channels talks about that, and lately they said the workers, only workers, Spanish workers who lives in Morocco, who register themselves in the state office are 140,000 so can you guess the number of people who didn't register, these who're illegally working ? Good luck for you !!

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## Andalusi Knight

Babur Han said:


> Times have changed sice the 11.09.2001, during blinding by Media People in Europe are full of hate of Islam ! In an event of a Crisis which beginn with Riots for example Morocco and it's People will be blamed for the Crisis, so far far Spain will recieve strong politic and public Support even in Event of Agression !





Babur Han said:


> Times have changed sice the 11.09.2001, during blinding by Media People in Europe are full of hate of Islam ! In an event of a Crisis which beginn with Riots for example Morocco and it's People will be blamed for the Crisis, so far far Spain will recieve strong politic and public Support even in Event of Agression !
> 
> If Turkey for example kill some PKK Terrorist european Media would call this Massacre !



Of course the European Media is full of hate of Islam, because the Muslim immigrants for intense who lives there, continue to increase due the high birth rate, and there was a document, that says it's a matter of time the Muslims in Europe will be more than 50% of the European citizens, and that means the constitution of each country will change it official religion recording to the happening, and this is an Canadian Report..






Start the video from 1:10

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## Chak Bamu

Let us not talk more about relative merits of Spanish and Moroccan economies. Shall we?


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## Andalusi Knight

Chak Bamu said:


> Let us not talk more about relative merits of Spanish and Moroccan economies. Shall we?



Sure my Brother, I will ignore the OT replies from now on

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## halloweene

Few things. Some people asked about AASM for an eventual Moroccan Rafale. Fact is AASM (aswell as MICA btw) is implemented on MF-2000. About long range stand off weapons (SCALP), international regulations would forbid selling more than 250 Kms range missile to Morocco, so expect the Black Shaheen version of SCALP.
I don't think there would be restrictions on a Rafale deal to Morocco, the advent of a war with spain is highly umprobable. And military relationships atm are very good between France and Morocco, as demonstrated for example in CAR.
We will see...

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## Ceylal

Babur Han said:


> Turkey doesn’t and will never support “Polisario front”: Erdogan | Sahara Question


There is no Muslim country that recognized them or have the political courage to say so. Even our own muslim parties refuse to take a stand on it. But as long as they have Algeria and her people with her, that's all the RASD needs.



Chak Bamu said:


> Rafale can be good to intimidate Algiers, but not Spain.


Really?
Algiers is not intimidated by either Spain or Morocco with Rafale or no Rafale.


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## Ceylal

Chak Bamu said:


> Future threat analysis for Morocco should take into account Algiers whose air force is more potent than Morocco's


Algeria is perceived as the threat by Morocco, but she is not, nor she consider Morocco as a threat to her. 
If , she was a threat, Algeria had and still have ample reasons to attack Morocco. But to this, she has done everything to quit things down and not to get on the unamicable cheap shots that is constantly bombarded by Moroccan officials, without diminishing the drug dumping on our west and south borders.


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## Ceylal

Luftwaffe said:


> Since Morocco is close Ally of US in any event US could supply more F-16s or even deploy their own squadron against the russian supported Algerian Air Force. F-16s are good enough to take care of SU-24 and Mig-29 so more F-16s is high possibility.


You are seriously underestimating the Algerian air arm. 
The Algerian Air Force, is the only force with that of Israel that are capable to conduct and carry operation far away from her shores. They have the technology, the experience, and highly trained pilots. I sincerely don't believe that a F16 can make a dent against the 29s she has. The Algerian Air force equip and train to fight against a western foe, not with Morocco, while we do not underestimate the capabilities of the latter, or any of our neighbouring countries.


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## Luftwaffe

Ceylal said:


> You are seriously underestimating the Algerian air arm.
> The Algerian Air Force, is the only force with that of Israel that are capable to conduct and carry operation far away from her shores. They have the technology, the experience, and highly trained pilots. I sincerely don't believe that a F16 can make a dent against the 29s she has. The Algerian Air force equip and train to fight against a western foe, not with Morocco, while we do not underestimate the capabilities of the latter, or any of our neighbouring countries.



Did I underestimate at all you may list fulcrums/su-30/su-24 as the only possible products that shall face F-16 Block 52, I said Moroccan F-16s are highly modern and could possibly order more F-16s instead of any other Aircraft to face opposition. You have to sincerely believe and never underestimate Enemy, F-16 is very capable Aircraft with Record, please go and check f-16.net reputable site filled with F-16 veteran pilots..next please check what comes with F-16s.. F-1 Mirages wold be used for Strikes an very potent platform. As for the Training goes most Moroccan crew/pilots with US/french equipment gets training from West which is always top notch without doubt. 

The only way we can see who comes out victors is if they both go to War.

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## flamer84

Ceylal said:


> There is no Muslim country that recognized them or have the political courage to say so. Even our own muslim parties refuse to take a stand on it. But as long as they have Algeria and her people with her, that's all the RASD needs.
> 
> 
> Really?
> Algiers is not intimidated by either Spain or Morocco with Rafale or no Rafale.





Does Algeria have problems with Spain to ? I wasn't aware of any.


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## Chak Bamu

Please let us stick to topic.

I will have to delete OT posts from hereon, no matter how valuable they are to posters.


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## Chak Bamu

@Andalusi Knight & @Ceylal 

Please take your posts to another thread. If you notice I have deleted a post each from both of you. I will delete other posts that continue the Off topic discussion. Please help me here. I do not want to delete posts that have good relevance in a correct thread.

Take a while to move any of your posts else where. It is up to your discretion. I shall delete the above post after a while if it is still here.

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## Andalusi Knight

Chak Bamu said:


> @Andalusi Knight & @Ceylal
> 
> Please take your posts to another thread. If you notice I have deleted a post each from both of you. I will delete other posts that continue the Off topic discussion. Please help me here. I do not want to delete posts that have good relevance in a correct thread.
> 
> Take a while to move any of your posts else where. It is up to your discretion. I shall delete the above post after a while if it is still here.



I respect your wish my dear brother, please forgive me but all what I did was answering his reply..

Feel welcome to delete my comments, with one condition, deleting his as well


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## Ceylal

flamer84 said:


> Does Algeria have problems with Spain to ? I wasn't aware of any.


Algeria does not have a problem with Spain. Relations between the two countries are excellent and were always cordial. I mentioned Spain in regard to the discussion on the Rafale.


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## Kompromat

Ok we are not having an Algeria-Morroco war here, are we?


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## Zarvan

Chak Bamu said:


> @Andalusi Knight , beware of some Pakistani posters. Not only do they prescribe long and impossible wish lists for Pakistan, but do so for other Muslim countries also. Just ignore them and stay focused on the thread.
> 
> We have one very famous poster who has been banned many times but he keeps coming back with new IDs. He never shies from prescribing $ 10 Billion arms deals for aircraft and submarines, and tanks, and what-not. If you learn to ignore, you will have a happier time at PDF.


That is not wish list Morocoo has only have around hardly 40 fighter jets that are not good they need atleast around 126


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## Luftwaffe

Zarvan said:


> That is not wish list Morocoo has only have around hardly 40 fighter jets that are not good they need atleast around 126



Morocco don't need that many, their AF is just fine for now with new F-16s and Mirage F-1 upgrades, pilots of F-16s are very busy being trained for Block 52 they certainly love F-16s and perhaps in coming years they might order even more. These F-16s can handle any aircraft of Algerian AF.


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## Zarvan

Luftwaffe said:


> Morocco don't need that many, their AF is just fine for now with new F-16s and Mirage F-1 upgrades, pilots of F-16s are very busy being trained for Block 52 they certainly love F-16s and perhaps in coming years they might order even more. These F-16s can handle any aircraft of Algerian AF.


Sir even with F 16 they definatley need more than 100 sir


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## Luftwaffe

Zarvan said:


> Sir even with F 16 they definatley need more than 100 sir



I understand what you are trying to say, they are busy with F-16 training it is a new platform the number of pilots might not be enough eventually in time they shall procure even more. This platform is extremely well suited and I would not be surprised replacement of F-1 in next decade could either be F-35 or Rafale. They need to build arsenal of stand off weapons like cruise missiles etc.


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## Zarvan

Luftwaffe said:


> I understand what you are trying to say, they are busy with F-16 training it is a new platform the number of pilots might not be enough eventually in time they shall procure even more. This platform is extremely well suited and I would not be surprised replacement of F-1 in next decade could either be F-35 or Rafale. They need to build arsenal of stand off weapons like cruise missiles etc.


Yes sir and also get two latest submarines for there Navy and we can sell them CRUISE missiles by the way are we working on some long range version off Raad ?


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## Luftwaffe

Zarvan said:


> Yes sir and also get two latest submarines for there Navy and we can sell them CRUISE missiles by the way are we working on some long range version off Raad ?



I do not know about RAAD further development it could be under wraps but I do not think Pakistan would ever sell RAAD.


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## Zarvan

Luftwaffe said:


> I do not know about RAAD further development it could be under wraps but I do not think Pakistan would ever sell RAAD.


Why Pakistan won't sell RAAD ?


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## Luftwaffe

Zarvan said:


> Why Pakistan won't sell RAAD ?



I do not know that is something Pakistan Military Industry and it's head to decide and there are factors like US strong ties with Morocco...your RAAD could land in US, it is all information.

Last US won't let RAAD integrate with F-16s just like they refused Black Shaheen to not be integrated with F-16 Block 60/61. 

I think we should not let China sell every thing and capture out market there should be an export oriented product without any worries. Let me put it this way we do not have successful marketers and the negotiations is undertaken by Generals, what do you expect.


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## Chak Bamu

Zarvan said:


> That is not wish list Morocoo has only have around hardly 40 fighter jets that are not good they need atleast around 126





Zarvan said:


> Sir even with F 16 they definatley need more than 100 sir



How would you know? Have you made a threat analysis for Morocco to come up with these magic numbers? At most they need to face off Algerian airforce and that is it for now. They can not and will not want to tangle with Spain for the foreseeable future for various reasons.

It is more important for them to focus on growth & development instead of armament. Not everyone thinks like you, nor do they need to.


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## Zarvan

Chak Bamu said:


> How would you know? Have you made a threat analysis for Morocco to come up with these magic numbers? At most they need to face off Algerian airforce and that is it for now. They can not and will not want to tangle with Spain for the foreseeable future for various reasons.
> 
> It is more important for them to focus on growth & development instead of armament. Not everyone thinks like you, nor do they need to.


Sir in this world threat can born overnight and Morocoo has problem both with Spain and Algeria


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## Babur Han

Chak Bamu said:


> How would you know? Have you made a threat analysis for Morocco to come up with these magic numbers? At most they need to face off Algerian airforce and that is it for now. They can not and will not want to tangle with Spain for the foreseeable future for various reasons.
> 
> It is more important for them to focus on growth & development instead of armament. Not everyone thinks like you, nor do they need to.



Some detterence could be necessary, for sure Morocco have not the econmic Power to counter Spains Military Power 1:1 ! There should be a minimum credible deterrence anyway !


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## Crystal-Clear

confirmed? ?


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## Philip the Arab

Crystal-Clear said:


> confirmed? ?


Uh? This is from 2014 my friend.


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## kingQamaR

jf17 has no buyers in the Middle East. I’m not sure where these stories come from ???

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## Alithemoor1

Unlikely! They are most likely going to be replaced by more F-16s or in the next decade by F-35.

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## hussain0216

kingQamaR said:


> jf17 has no buyers in the Middle East. I’m not sure where these stories come from ???



The Arabs would happily be dogs on a leash for the Americans or French but they would never buy from Muslim countries
They would never think out of the box and consider how to try to grow the MIC within their own and other Muslim communities

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## Alithemoor1

hussain0216 said:


> The Arabs would happily be dogs on a leash for the Americans or French but they would never buy from Muslim countries
> They would never think out of the box and consider how to try to grow the MIC within their own and other Muslim communities


lol Are you seriously comparing JF-17 with Western fighter jets? Please.

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## hussain0216

Alithemoor1 said:


> lol Are you seriously comparing JF-17 with Western fighter jets? Please.



In terms of capabilities the JF17 can do anything and everything a multi role jet of its type can do anywhere in the world

It has a plethora of lethal weapons it can utilise none of which are dependent on the U.S or it's allies

It's value in terms of independence is unfathomable

Further Pakistan can integrate any homemade weapon of the client state that the client wants and any 3rd party weapon the client is willing to pay for integration

It is independence, but Arabs don't have the ability to understand this and will pay billions upon billions to the U.S or France for weapons that often have massive strings attached, things missing, limitations of use policy and where the U.S can turn off the taps or support if the state dosent bow on command

At some point you have to aspire to be something other then a dog on a leash

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Morocco won't buy from Pakistan because of the rock solid relation between Israel and Morocco.


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## PDF

Morocco is getting Vipers, block 70/72, which PAF can only dream of having, so let's lock the outdated thread, shall we?

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## Pak Nationalist

PDF said:


> Morocco is getting Vipers, block 70/72, which PAF can only dream of having, so let's lock the outdated thread, shall we?


They might get those this year. https://northafricapost.com/51428-m...dditional,to provide fighter aircraft engines.

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## jupiter2007

Alithemoor1 said:


> lol Are you seriously comparing JF-17 with Western fighter jets? Please.



Mirage-2000, Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen, F-16, Mig-35, all are in medium weight category.

Which aircraft is in directed competition with JF-17 in light weight category? KAI TA-50, LCA, any other aircraft?

Arabs countries obviously don’t care about the money so they will go for whatever west is going to offer them.


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## Ahmet Pasha

jupiter2007 said:


> Which aircraft is in directed competition of JF-17 in light weight category? KAI TA-50, LCA, any other aircraft?


Qaher 313 😂


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## jupiter2007

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Qaher 313 😂



I know you are joking….

Have they built the actual prototype? If yes, it needs to go through testing phase, limited production, before it will go in serial production. By the time it’s ready for production, Chinese will be flying 6th generation fighter.


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## khanasifm

kingQamaR said:


> jf17 has no buyers in the Middle East. I’m not sure where these stories come from ???



there were no buyer in ME for Mushaq as well Ans after 20 years all
Of sudden it happened because the need arises so there is no such thing as never

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