# PAF F16-Blk70 possibly coming - TO BE CONFIRMED



## Khafee

1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.

2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.








This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!

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## Awan68

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.


Is this legit mate?

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## Trailer23

God Bless you @Khafee . As you know its 2:50am here in the UAE & you just got me all excited.

I was just on the F-16 Thread with @mingle talking about the F-16 Block 72 & the F-21.

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.



Hi,

Haal ee oya dhar oya---maar chhadiya eee----.

Oh merciful Lord in heavens---You are going to kill them---you are going to slaughter them---hahahahahahahaha.

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## ziaulislam

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.


but who is going to pay for it lol i hope not pakistan thats another 6 billion dollars that we dont have



Trailer23 said:


> God Bless you @Khafee . As you know its 2:50am here in the UAE & you just got me all excited.
> 
> I was just on the F-16 Thread with @mingle talking about the F-16 Block 72 & the F-21.


f21 aint happening IAF wont take it if they can get the rafale
see the rafales offers much greater flexibility ..yeah f16s are cheaper with similar capability but since when india has economical issues..since modi isnt even under pressure..you will see the flood gates opening now to prop up the indian military soon

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## Awan68

Maybe this is one of the few things we demanded for bringing the Talis to table.

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## ziaulislam

anyway its possible once iAF formally says no to f21 and once uncle sam realizes it needs more balance in the region to counter the rafales otherwise afgahnistan or pakistan might become another headache

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## war&peace

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.


I think it seems something on similar lines is going to happen


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154872650952585216

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## Khafee

Awan68 said:


> Is this legit mate?


Call LM and see what they say.

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## Sine Nomine

@Oscar

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## war&peace

Khafee said:


> Call LM and see what they say.


lolzzz

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## Cent4

Not this again.

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## Khafee

war&peace said:


> lolzzz


I'm serious.

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## Whirling_dervesh

Thanks but no thanks......

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## Darth Vader

Fake news
Words used by beloved holy leader uncle trump

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## Salza

Khafee said:


> *I'm serious.*



you better be

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## Trailer23

Khafee said:


> Call LM and see what they say.


Sorry bro, I don't have the power to give you a




, but consider this as one...

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.


Any news about used airframes like Jordanian F16 App ko Mubrok aur sweet in ur mouth thanks @Khafee

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## gangsta_rap

Don't jump.

This is what the reality will hold:

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## Salza

most, I can see possibility of AH-1Z but F16s V ...too hot to handle ..

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## mingle

GIANTsasquatch said:


> Don't jump.
> 
> This is what the reality will hold:


This baby is ours now U go and fly Mig 35

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



Hi,

Khafee---I did not expect it from you my man---.

The news about Kashmir solution has not even gotten old---and you have stuck your knife in and opened up a new wound---. Don't you know that it would create chaos and havoc in the ranks of the enemy---.

They did not even come to terms that Trump could say that---and yet you bring out your sledgehammer & pummel them some more---.

Oh---please be merciful---.

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## alikazmi007

Source please?


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## Khafee

mingle said:


> Any news about used airframes like Jordanian F16 App kay Mubrok aur sweet in ur mouth thanks @Khafee



As of now, I dont know. But IF I do find out, will update.

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## Sine Nomine

war&peace said:


> I think it seems something on similar lines is going to happen
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154872650952585216


If i am not wrong F-16 blk52 TST contract is ending in 2019.There were once over 200 US TST personal in Pakistan for supporting PAF in F-16 log issues.

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## Irfan Baloch

Awan68 said:


> Maybe this is one of the few things we demanded for bringing the Talis to table.


possibly 
but we are not even close
the conspiracies against our peace plan can already started through assassinations and terror attacks in Afghanistan
we might end up getting blamed for failure instead of any recognition for our efforts

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Khafee---I did not expect it from you my man---.
> 
> The news about Kashmir solution has not even gotten old---and you have stuck your knife in and opened up a new wound---. Don't you know that it would create chaos and havoc in the ranks of the enemy---.
> 
> They did not even come to terms that Trump could say that---and yet you bring out your sledgehammer & pummel them some more---.
> 
> Oh---please be merciful---.


@MastanKhan Real party will be release of PAC 3

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## Khafee

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Khafee---I did not expect it from you my man---.
> 
> The news about Kashmir solution has not even gotten old---and you have stuck your knife in and opened up a new wound---. Don't you know that it would create chaos and havoc in the ranks of the enemy---.
> 
> They did not even come to terms that Trump could say that---and yet you bring out your sledgehammer & pummel them some more---.
> 
> Oh---please be merciful---.


I have recvd some intel on that as well, I'm just drafting a reply. Will tag you.

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## Path-Finder

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


many times before we have had news only to be disappointed later.

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> As of now, I dont know. But IF I do find out, will update.


Thanks Brother

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## war&peace

Khafee said:


> I'm serious.


No, I mean how can he call LM

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## Sine Nomine

Irfan Baloch said:


> possibly
> but we are not even close
> the conspiracies against our peace plan can already started through assassinations and terror attacks in Afghanistan
> we might end up getting blamed for failure instead of any recognition for our efforts


If all parties are serious than those who are doing this are trying to fool themselves.US won't take these things lightly.

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## Irfan Baloch

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


these blocks have same radars as the F35. even with a watered down version of a true viper. these machines will be a force to recon with.

thanks for sharing such interesting news., only time will tell how real this news is.

as far as ban is concerned . its entirely down to your own conduct. avoid exchanges that bring the forum down or make you and others look bad.

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## Trailer23

GIANTsasquatch said:


> Don't jump.
> 
> This is what the reality will hold:


What a Photoshop Sales Pitch...?!!

That's something which is now almost a pipe dream. The F-21 is just an F-16 on steroids which India isn't interested in.

To date Lockheed Martin haven't really given any detail specifications what its capabilities are in terms of Thrust, Weapons, Avionics etc.

India already has something going on with Dassault, and now that Modi has gotten re-elected the whole Rafale Scandal is a thing of the past. Not to mention the recent Kashmir remarks by Trump has left a dent that won't be fixed anytime soon.

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## El Sidd

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pafs-35-year-old-modern-day-killer.627250/page-3#post-11619902

ahem ahem

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## Flight of falcon

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!




Wait wait....

I stood by you when you got banned so Pls give more details ))))))

.. where will they all be updated ? No way in Turkey so does this mean aircraft we will we be setting up a local facility to in-house upgrade these planes?
I am almost positive if BLK 70 are coming then Saudis etc will bank roll these purchases in return for defence pact.

Great news indeed!!!!

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> these blocks have same radars as the F35. even with a watered down version of a true viper. these machines will be a force to recon with.
> 
> thanks for sharing such interesting news., only time will tell how real this news is.
> 
> as far as ban is concerned . its entirely down to your own conduct. avoid exchanges that bring the forum down or make you and others look bad.


Blk70 =APG-83
F35 = APG-81

No the ban was unfair, just like a thread that showed the UAE in a positive light, and its part in the Feb hostilities, was shut down. 
On an on an unbiased platform, the mod would have been shown the door.

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## Sine Nomine

_Government of Pakistan requested a continuation of technical support services; U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support to assist in the oversight of operations in support of the Pakistan Peace Drive advanced F-16 program. The total estimated program cost is $125 million.

This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the United States by protecting U.S. technology through the continued presence of U.S. personnel that provide 24/7 end-use monitoring.

The proposed sale of this support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractor is Booz Allen Hamilton Engineering Services LLC, Fairborn, Ohio.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require the assignment of 60 contractor representatives to Pakistan to assist in the oversight of operations as part of the Peace Drive F-16 program.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov._
@Khafee most probably Pakistan is giving advance surety for new upgardes or airframes.

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## Gorgin Khan

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



Not a bad deal, if comes to a conclusion , a SLEP will mean that we will have some good 5000 hours per air frame , or even more , given the last structural upgrades of the planes in inventory.

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## war&peace

Flight of falcon said:


> Wait wait....
> 
> I stood by you when you got banned
> Pls give more details.... where will they all be updated ? No way in Turkey so with this man aircraft will we be setting up a facility to in-house upgrade these planes?
> I am almost positive if BLK 70 are coming then Saudis etc will bank roll these purchases in return for defence pact.
> 
> Great news indeed!!!!


There are few who supported him but not publicly

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## Kabira

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



Thank you, when its being delivered? Also any update on F-35 for Pakistan

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## Khafee

Flight of falcon said:


> Wait wait....
> 
> I stood by you when you got banned so Pls give more details ))))))
> 
> .. where will they all be updated ? No way in Turkey so does this mean aircraft we will we be setting up a local facility to in-house upgrade these planes?
> I am almost positive if BLK 70 are coming then Saudis etc will bank roll these purchases in return for defence pact.
> 
> Great news indeed!!!!


Everything will be publicly announced, sooner or later. 

There are other things in the pipeline -stay tuned!

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## Trailer23

MastanKhan said:


> The news about Kashmir solution has not even gotten old---and you have stuck your knife in and opened up a new wound---. Don't you know that it would create chaos and havoc in the ranks of the enemy---.


What, the enemy hasn't even recovered from the beating they got back in February... And we're supposed to wait for the wounds to heal in regards to Trumps statements about Kashmir.

All I can say is that they better cowboy up on the Rafales…, and by that I don't mean...

*THIS!!!!*​

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## Ahmet Pasha

Anothe peace gate?

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## Falcon26

PAF is better of upgrading current F-16 inventory to Block 70 and getting more used F-16. No need to get brand new vipers.


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## war&peace

Actually F-16 block-70 will be perfect fit until we get our 5th:gen bird since PAF has all the support system in place and also flying experience though integration of weapons

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## Irfan Baloch

Khafee said:


> Blk70 =APG-83
> F35 = APG-81
> 
> No the ban was unfair, just like a thread that showed the UAE in a positive light, and its part in the Feb hostilities, was shut down.
> On an on an unbiased platform, the mod would have been shown the door.


thanks for Radar clarification. back few years Americans didnt even allow PAF personnel near the UAE block 60s. and now you are doing a surprise strike like 27 Feb 19.
well played indeed


I will leave the ban argument aside as there maybe difference of opinion because mods take a view which the other party has a right to disagree well its a happy ending because it was reversed and you got the chance to make PAF section interesting for few days as people will speculate, troll, argue , insult , rave, cry and get banned (fairly or unfairly)

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Everything will be publicly announced, sooner or later.
> 
> There are other things in the pipeline -stay tuned!


@Khafee why Americans changed theior hearts? Other Goodies I believe Max pro vehicles EDA more AH1z, P8 who knows Cheif Abassi was at US shows interest.

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## Muhammad Omar

Are you seriously serious about Pakistan Getting Block 70 

It's gonna give nightmares to neighbors

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## Irfan Baloch

Falcon26 said:


> PAF is better of upgrading current F-16 inventory to Block 70 and getting more used F-16. No need to get brand new vipers.


why not? new airframe with all new equipment fitted as original first time. nothing beats that



Muhammad Omar said:


> Are you seriously serious about Pakistan Getting Block 70
> 
> It's gonna give nightmares to neighbors


yea 
imagine the amount of AMRAAM dodgers badge they will have to make to hide their Jet losses in our next air war in future

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## mingle

Falcon26 said:


> PAF is better of upgrading current F-16 inventory to Block 70 and getting more used F-16. No need to get brand new vipers.


Only blk 52 will go blk 70 rest will go V upgrade 42 blk 70 including existing blk52 is 3 Sqd easy

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## war&peace

Falcon26 said:


> PAF is better of upgrading current F-16 inventory to Block 70 and getting more used F-16. No need to get brand new vipers.


PAF has a number in mind for F16s, I think eighty.. plus we need a fill in the gap until we get our 5th:gen. JF17 block III is ready but still it is a light weight. F-16 is medium weight fighter. PAF not willing to go for heavy fighter yet.

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## Muhammad Omar

Look at that ... But no source attached by the OP

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## loanranger

What happens if things in Afghanistan dont go to plan as so often is the case. Will we be getting Peace Gate F16s still then....India would do everything to not let this happen.....even let go of s400 and buy f21.

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## Falcon26

Irfan Baloch said:


> why not? new airframe with all new equipment fitted as original first time. nothing beats that
> 
> 
> yea
> imagine the amount of AMRAAM dodgers badge they will have to make to hide their Jet losses in our next air war in future



Relations between the US & Pakistan are always temporary. If this news is true and a deal is signed, you don’t want these brand new jets going the way of new cobras and f-16s of the 1990s. Move fast and get it done creatively without being hostage to time.

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## loanranger

Water Car Engineer said:


> ****IAF F16-Blk70 coming*


Was that a joke?


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## Flight of falcon

I can imagine Khafee sipping his tea at Starbucks and we are searching for any confirmation on dark net ....

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks for Radar clarification. back few years Americans didnt even allow PAF personnel near the UAE block 60s. and now you are doing a surprise strike like 27 Feb 19.
> well played indeed
> 
> 
> I will leave the ban argument aside as there maybe difference of opinion because mods take a view which the other party has a right to disagree well its a happy ending because it was reversed and you got the chance to make PAF section interesting for few days as people will speculate, troll, argue , insult , rave, cry and get banned (fairly or unfairly)





mingle said:


> @Khafee why Americans changed theior hearts?



The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"

Two reasons:
1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.

The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.

This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.

2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"

He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.

India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.

The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.

The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.

As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.

Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.

Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx). 

Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).

InShaAllah great times ahead

Pakistan Zindabad

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## Irfan Baloch

Falcon26 said:


> Relations between the US & Pakistan are always temporary. If this news is true and a deal is signed, you don’t want these brand new jets going the way of new cobras and f-16s of the 1990s. Move fast and get it done creatively without being hostage to time.


I am not sure if upgrading old jets will make the deal any safer
if Americans want they can refuse to give back our old jets as well

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## Yaseen1

I think we should not be limited to f16s but also focus on other fighterjets program to maintain air superiority

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## Trailer23

Can anyone image the plethora of hated that is gonna come out from




.

First thing they're gonna do is send a mob at @Khafee place for breaking the story.

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## Gorgin Khan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am not sure if upgrading old jets will make the deal any safer
> if Americans want they can refuse to give back our old jets as well



You are right ! But Jets are not flown at once for the upgrades, it will be incremental.

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## YeBeWarned

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAF squadrons got to standby - in order to assist Paksitan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the China camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly. AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interest are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either.



What you say about China sending 4 SSK's along with type 55's, What we do heard rumor of that PAF requested X number sqs of J10 and X numbers of SD-10 for the possible all out war . If that news is true than once USA actually heard about the Chinese response it would ring a lot of bells in Washington . 

If you remember that on the night of 28th of Feb, after PAF strikes IA was super close to launch missile attacks on different targets across the country, and for some unknown reason the entire Karachi cantt was cut of from power, were they anticipating a missile attack there ? 

The news is amazing and I trust you here bro, but what i think that if such a deal was raised during PM or Army Chief visit, than certainly Americans are trying to get some sort of Influence back on Pakistan, since Trump cut off last 300 mln $ CSF Pakistan was not even looking at Americans for anything . 27th Attacks on India was a example, i cant believe that Pakistan take such a bold step without taking Washington into confidence .



Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAF squadrons got to standby - in order to assist Paksitan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the China camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly. AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interest are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either.



What you say about China sending 4 SSK's along with type 55's, What we do heard rumor of that PAF requested X number sqs of J10 and X numbers of SD-10 for the possible all out war . If that news is true than once USA actually heard about the Chinese response it would ring a lot of bells in Washington . 

If you remember that on the night of 28th of Feb, after PAF strikes IA was super close to launch missile attacks on different targets across the country, and for some unknown reason the entire Karachi cantt was cut of from power, were they anticipating a missile attack there ? 

The news is amazing and I trust you here bro, but what i think that if such a deal was raised during PM or Army Chief visit, than certainly Americans are trying to get some sort of Influence back on Pakistan, since Trump cut off last 300 mln $ CSF Pakistan was not even looking at Americans for anything . 27th Attacks on India was a example, i cant believe that Pakistan take such a bold step without taking Washington into confidence .

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## Arsalan 345

I was about to sleep but read this news.now I don't want to sleep! It is so good.nightmare for indians if true.

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## loanranger

pdf after a long time has something to discuss other than feb 26/27.



Arsalan 345 said:


> I was about to sleep but read this news.now I don't want to sleep! It is so good.nightmare for indians if true.


Man if true Indian Airforce is down and out for next 20 years. PAF will have evened the playing field!

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## Trailer23

Arsalan 345 said:


> I was about to sleep but read this news.now I don't want to sleep! It is so good.nightmare for indians if true.


Same here, its past 4 in the morning. Any moment my wife is gonna wake up & be like: WTF!!!

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## Falcon26

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am not sure if upgrading old jets will make the deal any safer
> if Americans want they can refuse to give back our old jets as well



You can do it in Pakistan. Or herb approval for Turkey to upgrade them


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## SQ8

I would wait until the Chicks actually hatch. Right now the chicken hasnt laid the eggs, we’ve just been told it will.

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## Pakistansdefender

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad


Don't agree with oil and Chinese province pov. But you made valid points.
Ask any sane person, like Pakistan that created proxies and send to fight Soviets does India ever have an courage to counter China like that in East turkistan or other places . India forces full well know they are paper tigers.

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## Arsalan 345

Trailer23 said:


> Same here, its past 4 in the morning. Any moment my wife is gonna wake up & be like: WTF!!!



There is passion for our country.we know how we performed against iaf on Feb 27.we want more air battles and we want air Superiority and for air Superiority,we need more f-16s.i think we love this plane because it's amazing.this news make me crazy.it clearly means that visit of ik was successful.

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## loanranger

Oscar said:


> I would wait until the Chicks actually hatch. Right now the chicken hasnt laid the eggs, we’ve just been told it will.


How long might it take for them to hatch by the way?


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## Khafee

Starlord said:


> What you say about China sending 4 SSK's along with type 55's, What we do heard rumor of that PAF requested X number sqs of J10 and X numbers of SD-10 for the possible all out war . If that news is true than once USA actually heard about the Chinese response it would ring a lot of bells in Washington .
> 
> If you remember that on the night of 28th of Feb, after PAF strikes IA was super close to launch missile attacks on different targets across the country, and for some unknown reason the entire Karachi cantt was cut of from power, were they anticipating a missile attack there ?
> 
> The news is amazing and I trust you here bro, but what i think that if such a deal was raised during PM or Army Chief visit, than certainly Americans are trying to get some sort of Influence back on Pakistan, since Trump cut off last 300 mln $ CSF Pakistan was not even looking at Americans for anything . 27th Attacks on India was a example, i cant believe that Pakistan take such a bold step without taking Washington into confidence .
> 
> 
> 
> What you say about China sending 4 SSK's along with type 55's, What we do heard rumor of that PAF requested X number sqs of J10 and X numbers of SD-10 for the possible all out war . If that news is true than once USA actually heard about the Chinese response it would ring a lot of bells in Washington .
> 
> If you remember that on the night of 28th of Feb, after PAF strikes IA was super close to launch missile attacks on different targets across the country, and for some unknown reason the entire Karachi cantt was cut of from power, were they anticipating a missile attack there ?
> 
> The news is amazing and I trust you here bro, but what i think that if such a deal was raised during PM or Army Chief visit, than certainly Americans are trying to get some sort of Influence back on Pakistan, since Trump cut off last 300 mln $ CSF Pakistan was not even looking at Americans for anything . 27th Attacks on India was a example, i cant believe that Pakistan take such a bold step without taking Washington into confidence .



SD-10's were sent from PLAAF inventory.

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## Trailer23

Yaseen1 said:


> I think we should not be limited to f16s but also focus on other fighterjets program to maintain air superiority


We've pretty much exhausted our options here on PDF.

1. We're never really able to get European (SAAB/EuroFighter) jets because they have American parts - well played. And that is when we're NOT in the US Camp.

2. When we're in the US Camp, they expect us to buy from them.

3. France is basically India now.

4. Russian jets... Well its a different argument altogether because if its not India, its that their jets are not up to PAF requirements.

5. China is all that we do have.

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## Pakistansdefender

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad


Sorry for my knowledge or being lazy to read full thread can you please tell me are we getting news jets or only old jets are refurbished. 
Please explain in tongue of the common folk.


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## SQ8

loanranger said:


> How long might it take for them to hatch by the way?


12-15 months

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## Nasr

I seriously doubt that Pakistan is going to get F-16 Block-70s. And even if it is, then why in the world would it ever go for these aircraft? I doubt that Pakistan can forget what happened with F-16s in 1983, nor what happened with the Super-Saber program, or what happened to the AH-1Zs, lastly what happened with the Block-52s that Pakistan was gonna by through FMS/USM-AID. And even if that is the case, and America has had a change of heart (yeah right!!!) then instead of buying new Block-70s, Pakistan should be buying older Block-40s and putting them through upgrades on to Block-52 or Block-V standards. Far more important is that Pakistan stockpile massive quantities of F-16 parts to ensure that aren't ever caught off guard again.

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## Khafee

Pakistansdefender said:


> Sorry for my knowledge or being lazy to read full thread can you please tell me are we getting news jets or only old jets are refurbished.
> Please explain in tongue of the common folk.


You are getting A5's from China. The US will give you the radars, you turn that into a Blk 90

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## war&peace

Irfan Baloch said:


> possibly
> but we are not even close
> the conspiracies against our peace plan can already started through assassinations and terror attacks in Afghanistan
> we might end up getting blamed for failure instead of any recognition for our efforts


Conspiracies will backfire if ISI and CIA work together and I think ISI chief went there for a reason.

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## Philip the Arab

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad


Oh are you Pakistani and Arab m8? I get this weird vibe from you.

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## Trailer23

Pakistansdefender said:


> Sorry for my knowledge or being lazy to read full thread can you please tell me are we getting news jets or only old jets are refurbished.
> Please explain in tongue of the common folk.


Well as @Khafee has stated that they are Block 72, which means they're going to be brand-spanking-new off the assembly line in South Carolina.

No AirForce currently has the Block 70/72


Oscar said:


> 12-15 months


Emmm, not that i'm questioning your reply, but there are quite a few other AirForces that have placed (confirmed) orders.
1. Bahrain
2. Slovakia
3. Iraq
4. Morocco
5. Taiwan (debatable)
6. Bulgaria

But then, it all depends on whom they'd like to prioritize.


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## war&peace

Khafee said:


> You are getting A5's from China. The US will give you the radars, you turn that into a Blk 90


But A5 were retired quite sometime ago...

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## Yaseen1

Trailer23 said:


> We've pretty much exhausted our options here on PDF.
> 
> 1. We're never really able to get European (SAAB/EuroFighter) jets because they have American parts - well played. And that is when we're NOT in the US Camp.
> 
> 2. When we're in the US Camp, they expect us to buy from them.
> 
> 3. France is basically India now.
> 
> 4. Russian jets... Well its a different argument altogether because if its not India, its that their jets are not up to PAF requirements.
> 
> 5. China is all that we do have.


u.s relationship with us not seems longterm if they withdraw from afghanistan completely they will leave us alone and we will not be important for them but if they maintain presence in the region we can get some benefit


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## YeBeWarned

Khafee said:


> SD-10's were sent from PLAAF inventory.



so its safe to say now we have X number of SD-10's in our inventory ? I doubt PAF did send those missiles back after the tensions are subsided .

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## war&peace

Oscar said:


> I would wait until the Chicks actually hatch. Right now the chicken hasnt laid the eggs, we’ve just been told it will.


Your source is different than OP?


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## Khafee

Philip the Arab said:


> Oh are you Pakistani and Arab m8? I get this weird vibe from you.


I dont like it when guys get vibes from me. Only members of the opposite gender are given that courtesy.

Kindly switch of your vibe detecting system. Thank You

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## Philip the Arab

Trailer23 said:


> Well as @Khafee has stated that they are Block 72, which means they're going to be brand-spanking-new off the assembly line in South Carolina.
> 
> No AirForce currently has the Block 70/72
> 
> Emmm, not that i'm questioning your reply, but there are quite a few other AirForces that have placed (confirmed) orders.
> 1. Bahrain
> 2. Slovakia
> 3. Iraq
> 4. Morocco
> 5. Taiwan (debatable)
> 6. Bulgaria
> 
> But then, it all depends on whom they'd like to prioritize.


Aren't they upgradeable? American AESA is much better than KLJ-7A though and will probably be much better in A-A combat especially than the JF-17 block 3.

Why can Pakistan not produce its own radars? Taiwan after having help for earlier radars is producing two AESA radars fot its jets from seperate companies using its indigenous semi conductor production as an asset.

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## Khafee

war&peace said:


> But A5 were retired quite sometime ago...


He is too lazy to read the first two lines, of the 1st post, on this thread. Hence me pulling his leg.



Starlord said:


> so its safe to say now we have X number of SD-10's in our inventory ? I doubt PAF did send those missiles back after the tensions are subsided .


They are for keeps.

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad



@Khafee,

I have written so much about this subject on this forum and I had wondered if I had lost it---but looking at what is happening---I realize that I still retain my sanity---.

The blame of this relationship is not only of the US---the major part falls on pakistan---. It is pakistan who did not know how to deal with the US---it is pakistan who did not know the military power of the US---.

It was some of the pakistani generals who wanted to make a vietnam of the US in AFG---. It was the pakistani members on this board who challenged the US to come and entangle pakistan military and they will show you how it is done ---.

Benzair came to power---she Zardari and her party saw the wealth that had come to pakistan---they went crazy---she sold Dr AQ and pak nuc program to the US and got entry back into pakistan politics---.

Nawaz did not want to be left behind---he sold out pakistan to India and thus got back in---. Nawaz and Hamid Mir became the main characters for the drama in mumbai created by the indian intel services---and today---Nawaz's daughter is creating unrest in the country---.

The OBL strike at Abbotabad was shocking in the sense that what did Obama wanted to do with pakistan---had he sold out Pakistan's interests to India---but the biggest shock was that why did the pak military generals did not strike back tactically at the accusations being hurled at pakistan and pakistan's image being decimated worldwide---.

Why did Kiyani---Pasha & Qamar Suleiman keep quiet about the issue---? If they had only uttered a public statement that pak military was associated in helping take out OBL---pakistan's image would not have been decimated all over the world---.

We go from one internal conspiracy to the other---from one internal sabotage to the other---and that was coming right from the top---.

The american state got carried away in the rhetoric created by the indian media that it would confront china---and pakistan is nothing---the indians don't even prepare to fight pakistan at all---that is how easy it would be---.

I don't know how the US admin believed in that---but I am pretty sure some would be scratching their heads at where the US loyalty and support was headed---.

Then to top it off---US lets its most loyal ally after the UK slip out of its hands---put it on a platter and gave it to china---. Actually the US dumped its most loyal and obedient ally pakistan for India and sent them to china---.

Now that pakistan is firmly sitting in the chinese camp---and that the indian military is no match for china leave alone pakistan---maybe fresh questions were being asked in washington dc that how did we screw up so bad---.

The thing is that the US got greedy---it thought that india would be a great market for the US goods and if armed properly---india would take charge of china---. Amazing---how bad both these assessments were and yet no one in the US cared about it---.

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## Khafee

Arsalan 345 said:


> There is passion for our country.we know how we performed against iaf on Feb 27.we want more air battles and we want air Superiority and for air Superiority,we need more f-16s.i think we love this plane because it's amazing.this news make me crazy.i*t clearly means that visit of ik was successful*.


Think of it as an interview for a job. IK passed, but so did Team PA.

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## Philip the Arab

Pakistansdefender said:


> OK my knowledge of jets is limited and stuff but I am not stupid


Wikipedia m8. I probably know every single modern combat jet that is operated today from hours of reading and know missiles, radars, etc.

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## The Accountant

Muhammad Omar said:


> Look at that ... But no source attached by the OP
> 
> View attachment 570996


@Khafee is an insider source himself.

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## Trailer23

Yaseen1 said:


> u.s relationship with us not seems longterm if they withdraw from afghanistan completely they will leave us alone and we will not be important for them but if they maintain presence in the region we can get some benefit


And its better we get as much as we can while things are improving (Diplomatically) between IK & Trump. Who knows if Trump will get re-elected. The next President of the United States may not be so kind to our needs.

As the saying goes: Strike while the iron is hot.

Leave Afghanistan to the Diplomats & leave the F-16's in hands of the capable PAF Falcons.

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## Khafee

MastanKhan said:


> @Khafee,
> 
> I have written so much about this subject on this forum and I had wondered if I had lost it---but looking at what is happening---I realize that I still retain my sanity---.
> 
> -.



People have a habit of not liking those who rock the boat. You are a soldier without a uniform, you give it, like it is. Salute to you SIR!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What kind of Cake did every one ate at white house
2 Month ago we could not get a pencil from USA , and now we are talking 

F16 Block 70?

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## The Accountant

Philip the Arab said:


> I worry that Pakistan will share AESA tech with China to improve AESA manufacturing capability. Relations with the US will be 100% cut if something like this is exposed.


Nothing of this has happened yet ... Pakistan Air Force is highly professional

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## gangsta_rap

Philip the Arab said:


> I worry that Pakistan will share AESA tech with China to improve AESA manufacturing capability. Relations with the US will be 100% cut if something like this is exposed.


I worry about MB coming in and stomping at the Jordanian Royal Palace or whatever - but you don't see me trying to pull trash out of the behind now do you?

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## Khafee

Philip the Arab said:


> I worry that Pakistan will share AESA tech with China to improve AESA manufacturing capability. Relations with the US will be 100% cut if something like this is exposed.


Don't worry, PAF has done very well, of proving its credibility with the Blk52+. 
The US is very satisfied with the safeguards in place, you should be too.

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## Philip the Arab

The Accountant said:


> Nothing of this has happened yet ... Pakistan Air Force is highly professional


Still if China offered something like J-20 or J-31 as bait they could do it secretly.


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## Khafee

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> What kind of Cake did every one ate at white house
> 2 Month ago we could not get a pencil from USA , and now we are talking
> 
> F16 Block 70?


Things do not happen at the drop of a hat, so to speak. 

In the west they plan decades in advance, and they prepare for every contingency.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad


IK-Trump body language surmises it all!! 

_As you are, so will you be ruled - Hadis-i Sherif_

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## Khafee

Muhammad Omar said:


> Look at that ... But no source attached by the OP
> 
> View attachment 570996


Feel free to have this thread deleted.

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## loanranger

The Accountant said:


> Nothing of this has happened yet ... Pakistan Air Force is highly professional


I believe china was allowed access to f 16s to make them capable of carrying nukes.


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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Still if China offered something like J-20 or J-31 as bait they could do it secretly.


J-31 is a export oriented fighter jet, and J-20 is not exportable just like F-22 @Philip the Arab

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## Pakistansdefender

Philip the Arab said:


> Wikipedia m8. I probably know every single modern combat jet that is operated today from hours of reading and know missiles, radars, etc.


And I only wanted to know that my Country has good weapons that are effective in long run and help us gain that parity with the enemy . I am may be more into what we are producing locally.
But that's it .
You may be geek there I am not.
Some have interest in this, other have not.

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## The Accountant

Philip the Arab said:


> If Pakistan is given bait like J-31 or J-20 as bait they would probably let them take a look at radar like in 2011 with Bin Laden and the stealth blackhawk.


PAF do not have source code access to F16s so they cant ...

Black hawk was different story as we didnt have any agreement for safety of that equipment

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## Khafee

Pakistansdefender said:


> OK my knowledge of jets is limited and stuff but I am not stupid


I was just pulling your leg. Apologies for having offended you.

Pls read the first two lines, of the 1st post of this thread. It self explanatory.

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## Water Car Engineer

Khafee said:


> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.




Both the F16 and F18SH have found local OEMs partners for local production. These production plants will be used for AMCA as well.

There are several modules being produced in India as well in a short time span. Apache fuselage, Sikorsky fuselage, Chinook Modules, F16 wings, etc.(production shifted from Japan,Israel to India) and they are moving up the value chain with full assembly, testing, ecosystem management if F16 or F18SH local production are chosen.

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## The Accountant

loanranger said:


> I believe china was allowed access to f 16s to make them capable of carrying nukes.


No you are absolutely wrong here.

Not even close

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## loanranger

The Accountant said:


> No you are absolutely wrong here.
> 
> Not even close


So our f16s cannot carry nukes then?


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## Khafee

loanranger said:


> I believe china was allowed access to f 16s to make them capable of carrying nukes.


Kindly Elaborate.


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## The Accountant

Philip the Arab said:


> China can still look at and copy certain tech in radar like T/R modules, hardware, etc.
> Do you think China had source codes for some of their unlicensed aircraft?


Lolz ... cant work in a digital age ...

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## war&peace

Khafee said:


> The US is very satisfied with the safeguards in place, you should be too.


Who cares about him?

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## The Accountant

loanranger said:


> So our f16s cannot carry nukes then?


No


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## gangsta_rap

Philip the Arab said:


> China can still look at and copy certain tech in radar like T/R modules, hardware, etc.
> Do you think China had source codes for some of their unlicensed aircraft?



How bout I show you my T/R module. Hopefully that will calm you up and help with the sleep now wouldn't it?

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## Philip the Arab

The Accountant said:


> Lolz ... cant work in a digital age ...


Why do you think China bought the SU-35 lol? It was for radar tech for use in J-20 and J-31.


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## war&peace

loanranger said:


> I believe china was allowed access to f 16s to make them capable of carrying nukes.


Shut up or provide a source..


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## MastanKhan

Philip the Arab said:


> I worry that Pakistan will share AESA tech with China to improve AESA manufacturing capability. Relations with the US will be 100% cut if something like this is exposed.





Philip the Arab said:


> If Pakistan is given bait like J-31 or J-20 as bait they would probably let them take a look at radar like in 2011 with Bin Laden and the stealth blackhawk.



Hi,

Looks like you are here to sabotage the thread---. Maybe those flags are not your real flags---@Irfan Baloch

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## loanranger

Khafee said:


> Kindly Elaborate.


I asked that to the one who told me too never got a reply back...


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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> China can still look at and copy certain tech in radar like T/R modules, hardware, etc.
> Do you think China had source codes for some of their unlicensed aircraft?


And why you thinks that China always doing copy paste and don't have capability to develop from scratch @Philip the Arab

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## MastanKhan

loanranger said:


> I believe china was allowed access to f 16s to make them capable of carrying nukes.



You too sabotaging the thread

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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> I would wait until the Chicks actually hatch. Right now the chicken hasnt laid the eggs, we’ve just been told it will.



The wounds of AH-1Z Vipers being held back are still fresh. American denying turkey the engines for Pakistan ATAK-129 deal. Many considered that a done deal as well . And now a new lollipop is in offing. At this point, it is like building castles in the sky. No idea why people post such news which has zero percent chance of happening in the future.

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## Trailer23

Philip the Arab said:


> If Pakistan is given bait like J-31 or J-20 as bait they would probably let them take a look at radar like in 2011 with Bin Laden and the stealth blackhawk.


We don't need a bait from China.

The US knows that Pakistan's relationship with China is stronger than oak. And as for your enquiry...

The J-31 has already been offered to the PAF, but its still in trail stages for the Chinese Navy. It might be another Two Years before its operational.

The J-20 is off-limits to everyone...

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## war&peace

Philip the Arab said:


> Why do you think China bought the SU-35 lol? It was for radar tech for use in J-20 and J-31.


Stop lying especially since you have no idea. SU35 uses PESA while Chinese aircrafts are using AESA radar already which is more advanced than PESA.

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## Philip the Arab

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looks like you are here to sabotage the thread---. Maybe those flags are not your real flags---@Irfan Baloch


Uh? How? I'm giving me opinion and not asking for bobs or vaganes.

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## Pakistansdefender

A new survey has been released by the government of India that all Indians sleep early at 8. That is the reason they are missing from pdf.

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## loanranger

war&peace said:


> Shut up or provide a source..


 ok bro


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Water Car Engineer said:


> No, I think F21 with TATA backing has a strong chance at winning.


I think the Ambanis overtrump the Tatas...

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## Philip the Arab

war&peace said:


> Stop lying especially since you have no idea. SU35 uses PESA while Chinese aircrafts are using AESA radar already which is more advanced than PESA.


Actually that PESA is the most powerful ever on an aircraft. It may be better at certain things than Chinese AESAs.

Irbis-E can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets at one time at ranges near 350~400 kilometers, and attack up to 8. In air-to-surface mode the Irbis-E provides mapping allowing to attack four surface targets with precision-guided weapons while scanning the horizon searching for airborne threats that can be engaged using active radar homingmissiles.

It can detect a target with radar cross-section (RCS) 3m2 at up to 400 km, (towards each other, in an area of 100 square degrees)[3][4] while a target with RCS 0.01m2 at up to 90 km.[5](dead link)

It is one of the most powerful PESA radar used in an operational aircraft.[6]


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## Khafee

loanranger said:


> I asked that to the one who told me too never got a reply back...


Early 80's PAF's F16 perfected "Bomb toss" - this was Pakistan's first nuclear delivery method.

Do keep in mind, a bomb and a missile, are two different things. To drop a bomb with what ever warhead does not require any change to the host aircraft.

Plenty of material out there and on this forum about "Bomb Toss", please feel free to investigate further.

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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Actually that PESA is the most powerful ever on an aircraft. It may be better at certain things than Chinese AESAs.


PESA is less accurate then AESA whether its Chinese or USA @Philip the Arab

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## loanranger

Khafee said:


> Early 80's PAF's F16 perfected "Bomb toss" - this was Pakistan's first nuclear delivery method.
> 
> Do keep in mind, a bomb and a missile, are two different things. To drop a bomb with what ever warhead does not require any change to the host aircraft.
> 
> Plenty of material out there and on this forum about "Bomb Toss", please feel free to investigate further.


I see ....Will do

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## Water Car Engineer

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> I think the Ambanis overtrump the Tatas...



Ambanis are working with the French. But I dont know if they are doing a full production of the Rafales. Right now - F21/TATA, Gripen/Adanis, F18/HAL&Mahindra.

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## Khafee

Bratva said:


> No idea why people post such news which has zero percent of happening in the future.


When it does, do post your pic on this forum.

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## Philip the Arab

Khafee said:


> Early 80's PAF's F16 perfected "Bomb toss" - this was Pakistan's first nuclear delivery method.
> 
> Do keep in mind, a bomb and a missile, are two different things. To drop a bomb with what ever warhead does not require any change to the host aircraft.
> 
> Plenty of material out there and on this forum about "Bomb Toss", please feel free to investigate further.


Can't you just modify a 2000 lb dumb bomb and add a nuclear war


pakistanipower said:


> PESA is less accurate then AESA whether its Chinese or USA @Philip the Arab


I know but Irbis-E is still useful tech regardless of it being a PESA. 400 km is better than the most AESAs today especially with Russias long history of radar tech.


----------



## Bratva

Khafee said:


> When it does, do post your pic on this forum.



Take a very good look at recent AH-1Z pictures on which Pakistan name is blacked out. And then Take a very good look at what you posted. AH-1Z is a reality. Your Post is fantasy. Once reality is fulfilled, then do remind me of posting my pic.

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## Trailer23

Philip the Arab said:


> Why do you think China bought the SU-35 lol? It was for radar tech for use in J-20 and J-31.


Even if China has bought the MiG-35...

They own it. They can do as they please by reverse-engineering whatever they want & Russia knows that because they've done it in the past.

But China has not bought the F-16 so its a bit difficult to achieve that when all jets are in Pakistan.

The US has known of Pakistan's close friendship with China, which is why they have personal (contractors) from Lockheed Martin keeping a close eye.

(If) Pakistan would've ever pulled a stunt like that, all hell would break loose.

If China is capable of stealing tech from the US for the F-22 or F-35, they sure as hell don't need any from Pakistan.

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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> I know but Irbis-E is still useful tech regardless of it being a PESA. 400 km is better than the most AESAs today especially with Russias long history of radar tech.


At extreme ranges (max ranges) no ASEA/PESA could detect targets accurately @Philip the Arab

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## Syed1.

Would like to see something concrete before I believe it. If I go by PDF hype then PAF is about to get two squadrons of SU-35s as well. Also 2 dozen countries have already placed order for JF-17.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Where is the Source?

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## Philip the Arab

pakistanipower said:


> At extreme ranges (max ranges) no ASEA/PESA could detect targets accurately @Philip the Arab


Erbis can detect 0.01m2 targets at 90km which isn't bad for size. It has better performance than AESA in many cases.


----------



## Khafee

Bratva said:


> Take a very good look at recent AH-1Z pictures on which Pakistan name is blacked out. And then Take a very good look at what you posted. AH-1Z is a reality. Your Post is fantasy. Once reality is fulfilled, then do remind me of posting my pic.



Dont worry, I will.

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## Trailer23

You know, I just realized that the ultimate PAF/PDF Member @Windjammer is probably asleep right now.

Didn't he just meet the ACM in Doha recently? He must be knowing something...

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## Winchester

Khafee said:


> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at *21bn BBL (min)* doesn't hurt either.


 
Since when?


----------



## The Accountant

Philip the Arab said:


> Why do you think China bought the SU-35 lol? It was for radar tech for use in J-20 and J-31.


No buddy, it was engine tech as in radar tech China is on par with Russia if not more advance ...

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## Philip the Arab

The Accountant said:


> No buddy, it was engine tech as in radar tech China is on par with Russia if not more advance ...


Where do you think they got their radar knowledge from, thin air? Most Chinese tech leads back to mother Russia or the USSR.


----------



## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad



Hi,

Some people think that I am a blind man shooting in a barrel---but they don't know how big the barrel is & how sensitive my sensors are---.

That proves my stand again---Paf chickened out on the 27th---. It should have smashed the enemy air power---as many air craft it had gotten a lock on and taken out the indian sub---and then had the missile ready for any strike---.

8-10 enemy aircraft taken out---a scorpene boat sunk in pakistani water---and 50 nuc tipped missiles aimed at enemy centers---would have shaken the confidence of the enemy right to the core---a la carte Israel---.

Pakistani generals knew the backing they had from the chinese---and for how long I had been writing---get heavy strike aircraft---get type 054's---get some subs---because you cannot buy them on the day of the fight---you also cannot have them parked at the enemy airports and shipyards---you have to have them at your own airfields---.

As china is going for the J15 / 16's---Paf should have asked for totally re-furbished Jh7A's and only paid for the upgrades---. China knows the importance of the gwadar port and it knows what it will have to pay to keep its assets alive---.

Pakistan's military needs to change their stance at time of contact---it needs to learn to smash the enemy at its knees---. This talk of broken nose and broken jaws is old talk and is worthless---.

Pummel the enemy down---break its will to fight---smash it when you get the opportunity---. India was in no position to fight a war on the 27th---all its plans were smashed to smithereen when the strike happened---it is only the cowardice of some that showed on the pakistani side---otherwise the enemy was ready to be had that day---.



Philip the Arab said:


> Uh? How? I'm giving me opinion and not asking for bobs or vaganes.




Mister---you are an enemy on this board---if it was for me---I would get you banned from the forum---.

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## airmarshal

Seriously! May be its @Khafee sense of humour. We are struggling to get the Zulus.


----------



## Philip the Arab

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Some people think that I am a blind man shooting in a barrel---but they don't know how big the barrel is & how sensitive my sensors are---.
> 
> That proves my stand again---Paf chickened out on the 27th---. It should have smashed the enemy air power---as many air craft it had gotten a lock on and taken out the indian sub---and then had the missile ready for any strike---.
> 
> 8-10 enemy aircraft taken out---a scorpene boat sunk in pakistani water---and 50 nuc tipped missiles aimed at enemy centers---would have shaken the confidence of the enemy right to the core---a la carte Israel---.
> 
> Pakistani generals knew the backing they had from the chinese---and for how long I had been writing---get heavy strike aircraft---get type 054's---get some subs---because you cannot buy them on the day of the fight---you also cannot have them parked at the enemy airports and shipyards---you have to have them at your own airfields---.
> 
> As china is going for the J15 / 16's---Paf should have asked for totally re-furbished Jh7A's and only paid for the upgrades---. China knows the importance of the gwadar port and it knows what it will have to pay to keep its assets alive---.
> 
> Pakistan's military needs to change their stance at time of contact---it needs to learn to smash the enemy at its knees---. This talk of broken nose and broken jaws is old talk and is worthless---.
> 
> Pummel the enemy down---break its will to fight---smash it when you get the opportunity---. India was in no position to fight a war on the 27th---all its plans were smashed to smithereen when the strike happened---it is only the cowardice of some that showed on the pakistani side---otherwise the enemy was ready to be had that day---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mister---you are an enemy on this board---if it was for me---I would get you banned from the forum---.


So you can't take my opinion? Get a life bub and learn to live and let live. I have a right to express my views on here within reason.


----------



## Philip the Arab

airmarshal said:


> Seriously! May be its @Khafee sense of humour. We are struggling to get the Zulus.


I don't think you will be getting the T-129 either though. *hint hint* Just go Chinese already. Z-10 and Z-19 are just as capable as the AH-1Z and T-129


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## Water Car Engineer

You are at a point like India was back then... You can only rely on the Chinese, like India was the Russians. Do J10 if permitted.


----------



## Pakistansdefender

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Where is the Source?


The same question I am asking.


----------



## MastanKhan

Philip the Arab said:


> China can still look at and copy certain tech in radar like T/R modules, hardware, etc.
> Do you think China had source codes for some of their unlicensed aircraft?



@waz @The Eagle ---I have reported this poster---this guy is constantly implying that pakistan is giving tech info to china---. Please take care of him

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## Khafee

airmarshal said:


> Seriously! May be its @Khafee sense of humour. We are struggling to get the Zulus.


There is no struggle to get Zulus 

Wait for it.

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## Khafee

Philip the Arab said:


> I don't think you will be getting the T-129 either though. *hint hint* Just go Chinese already. Z-10 and Z-19 are just as capable as the AH-1Z and T-129



Other than the Apache, Zulu has no competition.Sorry!

Then again the Zulus 80+% commonality with UH-1 / Bell 412, insures it remains embargo proof, to a very great extent.

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> We've pretty much exhausted our options here on PDF.
> 
> 1. We're never really able to get European (SAAB/EuroFighter) jets because they have American parts - well played. And that is when we're NOT in the US Camp.
> 
> 2. When we're in the US Camp, they expect us to buy from them.
> 
> 3. France is basically India now.
> 
> 4. Russian jets... Well its a different argument altogether because if its not India, its that their jets are not up to PAF requirements.
> 
> 5. China is all that we do have.


I was the one who always said we will get more F16s if offered by US. If we get blk 70 we don't need third type continue with two types and 5th Gen in future

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## Philip the Arab

Khafee said:


> Other than the Apache, Zulu has no competition.Sorry!
> 
> Then again the Zulus 80+% commonality with UH-1 / Bell 412, insures it remains embargo proof, to a very great extent.


How so? Mi-28 and Ka-50 are great helicopters. What gives Zulu a big advantage?


----------



## Zarmeena Rashad

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad


Pakistan Zindabad!!!

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## airmarshal

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad



Oil? Are we done with the block 70 news here? 

Where is oil in Pakistan? That off shore thing went down with a whimper. Where are you getting those news buddy?


----------



## Khafee

Philip the Arab said:


> I said I fear the will, and they have in the past with the downed stealth blackhawk. Take care of yourself and don't stress over my opinions because they don't agree with you.
> 
> Here a Pakistani source...



https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidw...tails-of-his-death-are-released/#368c65016e91

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## YeBeWarned

Khafee said:


> There is no struggle to get Zulus
> 
> Wait for it.



In fact Zulu were never been stopped, All America said that you pay you get your choppers we will not pay from CSF . This is one simple fact which a lot of Pakistani's miss , that America did not stop the sale of Zulu nor the 8 F-16 offered around 1-2 years ago, Pakistan just refused to pay from their own pockets, they wanted these weapons to be paid from the CSF which America Cut off . Now if America release those payments, they will just use the CSF to pay for these Zulu's and Possibly F-16's . Its almost same as that Israel get 3 Billion dollar Military Aid from America but its conditioned to be used to only Purchase American weapons .

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## Philip the Arab

Khafee said:


> https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidw...tails-of-his-death-are-released/#368c65016e91


Uh what do you want me to read here? This was early reporting before more details were revealed.


----------



## Yaseen1

Trailer23 said:


> And its better we get as much as we can while things are improving (Diplomatically) between IK & Trump. Who knows if Trump will get re-elected. The next President of the United States may not be so kind to our needs.
> 
> As the saying goes: Strike while the iron is hot.
> 
> Leave Afghanistan to the Diplomats & leave the F-16's in hands of the capable PAF Falcons.


u.s cannot be trusted for maintenance of f16 as they broke f35 contract with turkey and they can do the same with Pakistan.It all depends on afghanistan withdrawal. When they leave afghanistan they have only one option left to maintain presence in region and to contain china which is to fully support india and I think they will do this after they withdraw from afghanistan completely

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## mingle

airmarshal said:


> Oil? Are we done with the block 70 news here?
> 
> Where is oil in Pakistan? That off shore thing went down with a whimper. Where are you getting those news buddy?


It was one well continue drilling wells in same blk will hit jackpot eventually. Norway first 32 wells went Dry patience needed in oil exploration

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## Philip the Arab

Isn't the JF-17 with KLJ-7A more than capable of taking care of Su-30? Even with a good ECM system a RCS of 10-15m2 should be easy to track and achieve lock.


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## MystryMan

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Thanks for the share. I hope it becomes a reality.
I think we should have min. 3 squadrons from Blk70. Two new built and 18 upgraded from Blk52. Later MLUed airframes having enough hours left can be upgraded also.

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## airmarshal

MastanKhan said:


> @Khafee,
> 
> I have written so much about this subject on this forum and I had wondered if I had lost it---but looking at what is happening---I realize that I still retain my sanity---.
> 
> The blame of this relationship is not only of the US---the major part falls on pakistan---. It is pakistan who did not know how to deal with the US---it is pakistan who did not know the military power of the US---.
> 
> It was some of the pakistani generals who wanted to make a vietnam of the US in AFG---. It was the pakistani members on this board who challenged the US to come and entangle pakistan military and they will show you how it is done---aka Blaine---.
> 
> Benzair came to power---she Zardari and her party saw the wealth that had come to pakistan---they went crazy---she sold Dr AQ and pak nuc program to the US and got entry back into pakistan politics---.
> 
> Nawaz did not want to be left behind---he sold out pakistan to India and thus got back in---. Nawaz and Hamid Mir became the main characters for the drama in mumbai created by the indian intel services---and today---Nawaz's daughter is creating unrest in the country---.
> 
> The OBL strike at Abbotabad was shocking in the sense that what did Obama wanted to do with pakistan---had he sold out Pakistan's interests to India---but the biggest shock was that why did the pak military generals did not strike back tactically at the accusations being hurled at pakistan and pakistan's image being decimated worldwide---.
> 
> Why did Kiyani---Pasha & Qamar Suleiman keep quiet about the issue---? If they had only uttered a public statement that pak military was associated in helping take out OBL---pakistan's image would not have been decimated all over the world---.
> 
> We go from one internal conspiracy to the other---from one internal sabotage to the other---and that was coming right from the top---.
> 
> The american state got carried away in the rhetoric created by the indian media that it would confront china---and pakistan is nothing---the indians don't even prepare to fight pakistan at all---that is how easy it would be---.
> 
> I don't know how the US admin believed in that---but I am pretty sure some would be scratching their heads at where the US loyalty and support was headed---.
> 
> Then to top it off---US lets its most loyal ally after the UK slip out of its hands---put it on a platter and gave it to china---. Actually the US dumped its most loyal and obedient ally pakistan for Indiana dgave it to china---.
> 
> Now that pakistan is firmly sitting in the chinese camp---and that the indian military is no match for china leave alone pakistan---maybe fresh questions were being asked in washington dc that how did we screw up so bad---.
> 
> The thing is that the US got greedy---it thought that india would be a great market for the US goods and if armed properly---india would take charge of china---. Amazing---how bad both these assessments were and yet no one in the US cared about it---.



Not just American thinking, the Feb 27th counter strike had the world sit up and notice Pakistan. Dont discount that action. It was like cracking the nuts of the bully. Who would have thought Pakistan could do it. There has been such a narrative built about India being a rising power. It all crashed there right with their MiG-21 and Su-30.

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## Khafee

MystryMan said:


> Thanks for the share. I hope it becomes a reality.
> I think we should have min. 3 squadrons from Blk70. Two new built and 18 upgraded from Blk52. Later MLUed airframes having enough hours left can be upgraded also.


Sir, Pls read 2nd line of the 1st post, on this thread. All existing a/c's to be upgraded to "V" specs, as well as SLEP to 12k hrs.

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## Rana4pak

Philip the Arab said:


> Isn't the JF-17 with KLJ-7A more than capable of taking care of Su-30? Even with a good ECM system a RCS of 10-15m2 should be easy to track and achieve lock.


Hey you have constipation or verbal diarrhoea bcz you are constantly accusing pakistan for transfer of Americans technology to China with out any evidence.have some shame .you are at Pakistani forum.other wise I tell you how Israelis fcuk ur country.Mods look after this low life shit

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## Philip the Arab

Rana4pak said:


> Hey you have constipation or verbal diarrhoea bcz you are constantly accusing pakistan for transfer of Americans technology to China with out any evidence.have some shame .you are at Pakistani forum.other wise I tell you how Israelis fcuk ur country.Mods look after this low life shit


Did you even read what I wrote? Read the quote again pls.


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## Khafee

Philip the Arab said:


> Uh what do you want me to read here? This was early reporting before more details were revealed.


Don't read. Stay clueless.


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## Rana4pak

Philip the Arab said:


> Did you even read what I wrote? Read the quote again pls.


Am not talking about your this quote am saying about ur continuous verbal diarrhoea that Pakistan will access china to Americans radars systems with out any solid evidence. Speak in ur limits don’t bark with out any proof Israeli servent


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## Khafee

Philip the Arab said:


> Just tell me what you want me to read.. I'm not wasting my time reading 8 year old articles that were made without proper information released.
> 
> --


I 'm sorry I gave you that link. I apologize. Don't read it!

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## mingle

airmarshal said:


> Not just American thinking, the Feb 27th counter strike had the world sit up and notice Pakistan. Dont discount that action. It was like cracking the nuts of the bully. Who would have thought Pakistan could do it. There has been such a narrative built about India being a rising power. It all crashed there right with their MiG-21 and Su-30.


27 Feb Indian myth about supermacy shattered

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## MystryMan

Khafee said:


> Sir, Pls read 2nd line of the 1st post, on this thread. All existing a/c's to be upgraded to "V" specs, as well as SLEP to 12k hrs.


IIRC we still have about 15 MLU kits approved which were supposed to be used for upgrading Jordanian F16 to Blk52 standard.
So do u think that all new upgrades will be to Blk72 specs now?
I wish we get more new builds and use older (first batch of 80's) for training and OCU.

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## Cookie Monster

Irfan Baloch said:


> why not? new airframe with all new equipment fitted as original first time. nothing beats that
> 
> 
> yea
> imagine the amount of AMRAAM dodgers badge they will have to make to hide their Jet losses in our next air war in future


If this is all true...and I personally hope it is...then block 70 standard vipers(upgrade plus new) and block III JF17s together are enough to keep the enemy at bay until NGF(under project Azm) is ready.

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## Philip the Arab

Khafee said:


> I 'm sorry I gave you that link. I apologize. Don't read it!


I'm*



Cookie Monster said:


> If this is all true...and I personally hope it is...then block 70 standard vipers(upgrade plus new) and block III JF17s together are enough to keep the enemy at bay until NGF(under project Azm) is ready.


When it be ready? 2025, 2030? Imho F-16V and Jf-17 block 3 can serve until 2050 before 5th gen aircraft are really common.


----------



## Rana4pak

Philip the Arab said:


> I said it may happen. I can say the earth may suddenly explode as well because there is a possibility of it happening regardless of the chances. Stop getting angry bub and go 2 sleep.


And I said your sister will run away aur ur mom will have another man .how about that

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## Cookie Monster

Philip the Arab said:


> I'm*
> 
> 
> When it be ready? 2025, 2030? Imho F-16V and Jf-17 block 3 can serve until 2050 before 5th gen aircraft are really common.


I believe current timeline for NGF to be ready is around 2045ish.


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## Khafee

MystryMan said:


> So do u think that all new upgrades will be to Blk72 specs now?
> .


Yes

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## manga

I remember Su-35 threads, was it same gentleman or someone other. 
Interesting time ahead, so when can we expect official announcement.


----------



## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Erbis can detect 0.01m2 targets at 90km which isn't bad for size. It has better performance than AESA in many cases.


only for marketing purpose real air to air battle scenario is different ball game @Philip the Arab and you are forgetting Su-30 RCS before it will detect F-22/F-35/F-15 it going to shot down by the enemy because of its huge RCS @Philip the Arab


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## Khafee

Flight of falcon said:


> I can imagine Khafee sipping his tea at Starbucks and we are searching for any confirmation on dark net ....


Cappuccino

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## Cookie Monster

Philip the Arab said:


> Damn homie, might as well skip to 6th gen. Nah kidding but I think many of us will not see it excluding the younger members like me


It's a bit dark to conclude that a lot of members here will die off before NGF is ready...there are other ways to use humor.

Anyways thats what I remember reading somewhere on PDF...that a rough estimate of NGF is around 2045. Since it will also follow a modular design(like JF17), some 5th gen + tech is surely to be incorporated as technology will surely be more advanced then as compared to now. In short there is no complete 5th gen design that is "locked in" based on today's tech. So it's not correct to assume that Pak's NGF will be outdated by the time it's ready.


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

I hope Pakistan gets AIM 120Ds too

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## MastanKhan

Hahahahahahahaha

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## Cookie Monster

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am not sure if upgrading old jets will make the deal any safer
> if Americans want they can refuse to give back our old jets as well


I doubt that they will do that. If things go south and they want to exert some sort of control on Pak, they have other ways of doing so..anywhere from not providing spares, ammunition, etc. to a ton of sanctions. Keeping Pak's paid off F16s(sent for upgrades) will look extremely bad on part of US as a supplier and will hurt their potential future sales. In the past when US kept the new F16s(ordered and paid for by Pak), at least they were 'yet to be delivered'...and so they get away with the excuse of "Pak pursuing nuclear weapons" and what not. Keeping another country's paid off assets under the guise of upgrading them will make other countries apprehensive of sending their assets to US for upgrade. For any new purchases other countries would demand that US allow them to upgrade locally...or they will buy from elsewhere altogether. Additionally if Pak sends it's F16s to the US for upgrades, Pak would be sending them in batches...so at best they can keep one batch...IMO it's not worth losing customers, billions of dollars, and destroying ur reputation(as an arms supplier)...just to keep a few of PAF jets.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Classic play of gora mindset
Dangling the carrot.
All of Pakistan is getting just too excited for my taste.

We shouldn't be so reactionary. Look at history, how many times US has left us in our times of need ex 7th fleet, arms embargos in 65, pressler amendment, defamation campaign in 2000s WoT. It's the same country that's been sponsoring think tanks to come up with research paper after research paper of various strategies to do away with Pakistan and it's nuclear arsenal. And the threat it poses to their love child Israel and India.

Certainly not downplaying the gains of recent Civ-Mil visit to Washington.

All I'm saying is let's be cool and not jumpy about this.

Ideally if I had the option I'd make the US pay for the use of our supply lines or if CSF is the only option then try to find a way where that money finds it's way to our local defence industry and stimulate growth.



Irfan Baloch said:


> I am not sure if upgrading old jets will make the deal any safer
> if Americans want they can refuse to give back our old jets as well



They could do that by coming with some meticulously worded posh statements.
Because they act like mohalley ka thanedaar.

If we get Blk 70s good. If not let's get our thunder to blk 70 standards. And focus on AZM.

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## SQ8

Trailer23 said:


> Well as @Khafee has stated that they are Block 72, which means they're going to be brand-spanking-new off the assembly line in South Carolina.
> 
> No AirForce currently has the Block 70/72
> 
> Emmm, not that i'm questioning your reply, but there are quite a few other AirForces that have placed (confirmed) orders.
> 1. Bahrain
> 2. Slovakia
> 3. Iraq
> 4. Morocco
> 5. Taiwan (debatable)
> 6. Bulgaria
> 
> But then, it all depends on whom they'd like to prioritize.


Im referring to this sort of report actually materializing into a viable contract.



war&peace said:


> Your source is different than OP?


Experience and no confirmation otherwise

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


wooooooooooow its amazing

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## YeBeWarned

Oscar said:


> Im referring to this sort of report actually materializing into a viable contract.
> 
> 
> Experience and no confirmation otherwise



I would be happy to take 18-36 F-16 Block 52's .. but block 70's or V upgrades will be cherry on top .

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## Cookie Monster

Khafee said:


> Think of it as an interview for a job. IK passed, but so did Team PA.


I just have one question...Trump has so far been hell bent on not giving "handouts" to other countries. This even included NATO where he basically told those countries to pull their own weight instead of overly relying on US. He even suggested that Japan and South Korea should step up and take care of their own defense needs. So my question is how is Trump on board for this upgrade of F16s. I would only expect that he is fine with it as long as Pak is paying for all of this...which I don't think Pak can at the moment. If US is going to cover some of this under CSF or something like that...then I expect Trump would be against it. Could u shine some light on this? Or is it something that u can't reveal yet?

@Avicenna get over here bro...u would love this news(see OP)



Philip the Arab said:


> I worry that Pakistan will share AESA tech with China to improve AESA manufacturing capability. Relations with the US will be 100% cut if something like this is exposed.


How about u let US worry about that. It's their tech not urs.

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## Thorough Pro

It will take a couple of years for the stuff to arrive, get some sleep.



Arsalan 345 said:


> I was about to sleep but read this news.now I don't want to sleep! It is so good.nightmare for indians if true.

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## Thorough Pro

Thats the benefit of of using Chinese weapons, you can get them on urgent basis whenever you need them as many as you need them. There is a reason why we call them Iron brothers 



Khafee said:


> SD-10's were sent from PLAAF inventory.

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## Cookie Monster

Philip the Arab said:


> I'm an American and my family pays taxes to the us which goes into R&D for radars. Thereby they are my tech too.


F16 is made by private companies like Lockheed Martin. U don't own any of this tech...nothing, zilch, nada. Take ur taxpayer BS elsewhere. All the relevant parties involved(State Department, Pentagon, LM, etc.) have sold US tech to Pak before and there were no problems with unauthorized sharing of tech and there wouldn't be in the future. U don't need to concern urself nor do ur concerns matter.

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## Thorough Pro

Do not downplay that, that is the biggest strategic advantage we have, a continuous and dependable supply of arms and spares keeps you fighting a prolonged war. China provides us strategic depth in terms of war machinery on urgent basis.




Trailer23 said:


> 5. China is all that we do have.

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## Khafee

Cookie Monster said:


> I just have one question...Trump has so far been hell bent on not giving "handouts" to other countries. This even included NATO where he basically told those countries to pull their own weight instead of overly relying on US. He even suggested that Japan and South Korea should step up and take care of their own defense needs. So my question is how is Trump on board for this upgrade of F16s. I would only expect that *he is fine with it as long as Pak is paying for all of this*...which I don't think Pak can at the moment. If US is going to cover some of this under CSF or something like that...then I expect Trump would be against it. Could u shine some light on this? Or is it something that u can't reveal yet?
> 
> @Avicenna get over here bro...u would love this news(see OP)
> 
> 
> How about u let US worry about that. It's their tech not urs.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-5#post-11648112


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## Cookie Monster

Khafee said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-5#post-11648112


Yes I read that post(still in the process of going through each page of this thread). I fully agree with that assessment...as in strategically and geopolitically it is sound.

My question is based on Trump's past behavior. Other US presidents be it Democrat or Republican...have always acted based on the interest of the deep state...Trump however kind of sort of does his own thing. Hence my question.

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## Microsoft

Water Car Engineer said:


> ****IAF F16-Blk70 coming*



Now that would be a waste of a perfectly good machine. Just like the SU-30s...

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## Philip the Arab

Cookie Monster said:


> F16 is made by private companies like Lockheed Martin. U don't own any of this tech...nothing, zilch, nada. Take ur taxpayer BS elsewhere. All the relevant parties involved(State Department, Pentagon, LM, etc.) have sold US tech to Pak before and there were no problems with unauthorized sharing of tech and there wouldn't be in the future. U don't need to concern urself nor do ur concerns matter.


Actually after the prototype was developed and the US wanted to buy it many more technologies for it were developed. I own a majority of the tech used after block 1 because the R&D was paid for by Us gov.


----------



## gangsta_rap

Philip the Arab said:


> I own a majority of the tech used after block 1 because the R&D was paid for by Us gov



and I own Jordan cause my Grandpa's taxpayer money saved the royal family's behind from vengeful PLO rebels.

Come on kiddo start paying up. The bill was sent to you via mail 48 years ago.

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## Cookie Monster

Philip the Arab said:


> Actually after the prototype was developed and the US wanted to buy it many more technologies for it were developed. I own a majority of the tech used after block 1 because the R&D was paid for by Us gov.


No u don't...US "awards" money to the company from which it selects the products for its defense needs. Companies like Raytheon, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, etc. are ALL private companies...any research they do is their own. US buys their products just like u can go buy an iPhone. When u buy an iPhone u don't become the owner of Apple's R&D and patents they hold. The incentive for these companies to sink millions of dollars in R&D is that if their product gets selected it means billions of dollars worth of sales for US defense needs and other potential buyers(other countries). If their product isn't selected then that particular effort(and money spent on it) is a loss. It's just a simple "sale"...u or ur "taxpaying family members" don't own crap of these PRIVATE companies.

@Dubious @The Eagle @waz plz check this idiot. He is derailing the thread.

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## Thorough Pro

@mods take care of this troll



Philip the Arab said:


> I worry that Pakistan will share AESA tech with China to improve AESA manufacturing capability. Relations with the US will be 100% cut if something like this is exposed.





Philip the Arab said:


> Can't you just modify a 2000 lb dumb bomb and add a nuclear war
> 
> I know but Irbis-E is still useful tech regardless of it being a PESA. 400 km is better than the most AESAs today especially with Russias long history of radar tech.

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## TOPGUN

We shall have to see so far only heard about the support from US nothing more !


----------



## Cookie Monster

Philip the Arab said:


> So you don't think the US requests upgrades and pays for their development?
> 
> Oh shit that was supposed to say warhead*


That's about enough of sh*t pulled out of ur behind. How about u show me some proof this time. Go ahead and find me patents originally filed by Lockheed Martin or some other private company(defense contractor) that were then handed over(changed ownership) to US government after US selected that particular product and awarded them money. Until u can provide me this "proof" don't bother quoting me.

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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Actually after the prototype was developed and the US wanted to buy it many more technologies for it were developed. I own a majority of the tech used after block 1 because the R&D was paid for by Us gov.


Not you but only US govt own this tech @Philip the Arab


----------



## Pakhtoon yum

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Booo I thought it was something better.


----------



## gangsta_rap

Philip the Arab said:


> So are you apart of the JF-17?



Damn right I am. It's in the mufuggin name JOINT fighter.

JOINT.

Come now pay up. My Grandad's hard earned taxpayer funded advisory mission in Jordan did the trick and I own the Royal Palace's backyard now.

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## Path-Finder

Khafee said:


> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.



This is the most crucial point because here in Britain the amount of indians coming to work has dropped big time in various firms and I was told its quite serious that sensitive info is always leaking out. I was wondering when will there be any action against it because I at my home receive calls from india to scam me out of money.

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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> So you don't think the US requests upgrades and pays for their development?
> 
> 
> Oh shit that was supposed to say warhead*
> 
> 
> So are you apart of the JF-17?


Your idiotic logics doesn't make any sense @Philip the Arab

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## Microsoft

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looks like you are here to sabotage the thread---. Maybe those flags are not your real flags---@Irfan Baloch



Unfortunately this child has some sort of a superiority complex. I've had the displeasure of reading some of his posts.



Philip the Arab said:


> I said I fear the will, and they have in the past with the downed stealth blackhawk. Take care of yourself and don't stress over my opinions because they don't agree with you.
> 
> Here a Pakistani source...



I'm not going to say you're a false flagger or Indian, I trust your flags are correct. However you have some anti-Paksitan bias going by some of your posts. Do you think you understand more than the US military on Pakistan's information sharing with China? You are cherry picking what you choose to believe. Just use common sense and you will realize why Pakistan would never share US tech secrets with China or anyone else.

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## mingle

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Booo I thought it was something better.


F22? 500 million per copy 1 hr flight about 8 hrs maintenance

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## WaLeEdK2

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



Where do you guys get this information? Do u guys know people or what? @MastanKhan


----------



## Beethoven

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Just woke up to see this news....Habibi you made my day....jeeyo hazaron saal


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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> So if I buy weed am I apart of it? It is sold in *JOINT *form.


we are the part of JF-17 development project and its designed by China for PAF and currently we are manufacturing it at home @Philip the Arab


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## mingle

Path-Finder said:


> This is the most crucial point because here in Britain the amount of indians coming to work has dropped big time in various firms and I was told its quite serious that sensitive info is always leaking out. I was wondering when will there be any action against it because I at my home receive calls from india to scam me out of money.


Boeing Max 737 software developed in india that was main reason according to Boeing now hiring theior own engineers again been laid off due to cheap labour.

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## Philip the Arab

mingle said:


> F22? 500 million per copy 1 hr flight about 8 hrs maintenance


Its about 120 million per aircraft actually. It can go up to 1822 with fuel tanks also, and I highly doubt the maintenance is 8 hours.



mingle said:


> Boeing Max 737 software developed in india that was main reason according to Boeing now hiring theior own engineers again been laid off due to cheap labour.


Lel they go to college for 4 years to make $9 an hour. Everyone can make mistakes though regardless of them being Indian.


----------



## MastanKhan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Where do you guys get this information? Do u guys know people or what? @MastanKhan



Hi,

I know nobody---. @Khafee will answer for himself---hehehehehehe---.

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## Avicenna

Cookie Monster said:


> I just have one question...Trump has so far been hell bent on not giving "handouts" to other countries. This even included NATO where he basically told those countries to pull their own weight instead of overly relying on US. He even suggested that Japan and South Korea should step up and take care of their own defense needs. So my question is how is Trump on board for this upgrade of F16s. I would only expect that he is fine with it as long as Pak is paying for all of this...which I don't think Pak can at the moment. If US is going to cover some of this under CSF or something like that...then I expect Trump would be against it. Could u shine some light on this? Or is it something that u can't reveal yet?
> 
> @Avicenna get over here bro...u would love this news(see OP)
> 
> 
> How about u let US worry about that. It's their tech not urs.



Yea I am ecstatic if it turns out to be true.

This is TREMENDOUS!

94-100 Block 72 (including the upgrades) with Block 3 with numbers will give PAF alot of leeway with Azm.

Very happy about it.

But to be honest, I don't trust US intentions.

Nothing in life is for free.

As @Starlord said, F-16s and the Zulus aren't blocked for sale. Just not "subsidized".

So obviously, the US NEEDS Pakistan for some political or strategic ends.

But that's awesome.

So this time GRAB as MANY AS YOU CAN. (Like the time PAF was planning up to 55 Block 52, instead getting 18)

And stock the spares and plan for the inevitable rainy day with the US.

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## Microsoft

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Booo I thought it was something better.



What could be better than this? 

30-40 year old F-16s are giving Indians nightmares even today I might start investing in cardiac health care for IAF if I see these babies rolling in.

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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Its about 120 million per aircraft actually. It can go up to 1822 with fuel tanks also, and I highly doubt the maintenance is 8 hours.
> 
> 
> Lel they go to college for 4 years to make $9 an hour. Everyone can make mistakes though regardless of them being Indian.


after an hour flight it has maintenance duration of 8 hours because of its stealth coatings doesn't sustain/degrades any slight weather changes (drizzle, hail, rain snow) etc etc @Philip the Arab

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## Philip the Arab

pakistanipower said:


> we are the part of JF-17 development project and its designed by China for PAF and currently we are manufacturing it at home @Philip the Arab


Today its all about foreign partnerships. Taiwan a country of 23 million made a fighter with American help. Do you know why Pakistan is not producing aicraft radars? Again, Taiwan a country of 20 million is producing two seperate radars from two seperate companies. I derailed this thread a whole lot lel.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/taiwan-aesa-radar-challenge-international-market-share-36867


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## Cookie Monster

Avicenna said:


> Yea I am ecstatic if it turns out to be true.
> 
> 94-100 Block 72 (including the upgrades) with Block 3 with numbers will give PAF alot of leeway with Azm.
> 
> Very happy about it.
> 
> But to be honest, I don't trust US intentions.
> 
> Nothing in life is for free.
> 
> As @Starlord said, F-16s and the Zulus arent blocked for sale. Just not subsidized.
> 
> So obviously, the US NEEDS Pakistan for some political or strategic ends.
> 
> But that's awesome.
> 
> So this time GRAB as MANY AS YOU CAN. (Like the time PAF was planning up to 55 Block 52, instead getting 18)
> 
> And stock the spares and plan for the inevitable rainy day with the US.


Yes of course nothing in this world is free...but as we discussed before small countries like Pak...if they wish to stand up to a bigger country(like India) instead of being bossed around then there is no choice but to rely on countries like US or China, or some other major power. This essentially turns into a "give and take relationship", if they r going to help out Pak then conversely Pak must help them out. I just hope that this time Pak plays it smart and doesn't end up being used and discarded...but rather use this opportunity to build a multidimensional long term relationship.

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## MastanKhan

@Khafee 

"The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.

This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities".

See---this is what I cannot comprehend---. As India took american permission to attack those trees in kashmir---pakistan must have involved china in its plan as well of strike on the 27th---.

And when there was so much chinese backing---why was there cowardice shown by the Paf generals by not doing maximum damage---why was the indian scorpene let go---?

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## Philip the Arab

Does anyone think it is possible to make a stealth F-16 like F-15SE? F-16 RCS is reportedly 1m2 and J-20 is all 0.1-1m2. So if you could make weapons internal and add RAM coating it would make it have an even lower RCS. Don't know how realistic this is...


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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Today its all about foreign partnerships. Taiwan a country of 23 million made a fighter with American help. Do you know why Pakistan is not producing aicraft radars? Again, Taiwan a country of 20 million is producing two seperate radars from two seperate companies. I derailed this thread a whole lot lel.
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/taiwan-aesa-radar-challenge-international-market-share-36867


Why you thinks that we have not the capability to build radar, we have the capability to built radar for F-7PG/Mirages via Italy (TOT) grifo series of radar @Philip the Arab and don't divert the topic you're continuously diverting the topic, this thread is for projected purchased of F-16V not JF-17 @Philip the Arab


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## Cookie Monster

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know nobody---. @Khafee will answer for himself---hehehehehehe---.


Mastan Uncle...I replied to u(for one of our previous discussion) a while back...wrote on ur wall too. I'm awaiting ur reply...if u have some time.

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## Philip the Arab

pakistanipower said:


> Why you thinks that we have not the capability to build radar, we have the capability to built radar for F-7PG/Mirages via Italy (TOT) grifo series of radar @Philip the Arab and don't divert the topic you're continuously diverting the topic, this thread is for projected purchased of F-16V not JF-17 @Philip the Arab


Don't they complement eachother?


----------



## Avicenna

Cookie Monster said:


> Yes of course nothing in this world is free...but as we discussed before small countries like Pak...if they wish to stand up to a bigger country(like India) instead of being bossed around then there is no choice but to rely on countries like US or China, or some other major power. This essentially turns into a "give and take relationship", if they r going to help out Pak then conversely Pak must help them out. I just hope that this time Pak plays it smart and doesn't end up being used and discarded...but rather use this opportunity to build a multidimensional long term relationship.



This is a carrot from the US.

The sticks didn't work earlier.

I'm not sure what exactly their plans are.

But no matter, for Pakistan, this is great news.

Like I said, grab as many as you can this time.

As we have seen, the US attitude towards Pakistan is transactional and fickle. (Although with Trump its not business as usual anywhere in the world.)

This F-16 deal obviously would be most bang for the buck for PAF for obvious reasons.

LOL.

BS Dhanoa is probably crying in a corner next to his Rafale statue right about now.

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## Ultima Thule

Philip the Arab said:


> Does anyone think it is possible to make a stealth F-16 like F-15SE? F-16 RCS is reportedly 1m2 and J-20 is all 0.1-1m2. So if you could make weapons internal and add RAM coating it would make it have an even lower RCS. Don't know how realistic this is...


F-16 doesn't have the radar scatting fuselages/coatings/treatments etc etc and last if they will do upon customer request then it will expensive and weapons bays makes least effect on F-16 RCS @Philip the Arab



Philip the Arab said:


> Don't they complement eachother?


again you diverting the topic, stay on topic you idiot @Philip the Arab


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## gangsta_rap

pakistanipower said:


> weapons bays



*weapons pod


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## Kabira

Khafee said:


> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).



Where did you get this figure? Pakistan doesn't have oil reserves to speak off. Shale oil is way off....


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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad


sir you made my day


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## Cookie Monster

Avicenna said:


> This is a carrot from the US.
> 
> The sticks didn't work earlier.
> 
> I'm not sure what exactly their plans are.
> 
> But no matter, for Pakistan, this is great news.
> 
> Like I said, grab as many as you can this time.
> 
> As we have seen, the US attitude towards Pakistan is transactional and fickle. (Although with Trump its not business as usual anywhere in the world.)
> 
> This F-16 deal obviously would be most bang for the buck for PAF for obvious reasons.
> 
> LOL.
> 
> BS Dhanoa is probably crying in a corner next to his Rafale statue right about now.
> 
> View attachment 571010


This deal if it materializes(in combination with JF17 block III) for sure will balance out IAF's Rafales and considerable numbers of Su30MKI and Mirage 2K. I assume the immediate "payment" would be ensuring a smooth exit of US from Afghanistan and helping install a government(Afghan Taliban...or maybe Afghan Taliban in coalition with some other powerful factions) that will cater to US interests in Afghanistan to an extent. This is fine from a security perspective (Pak's security perspective)...as long as India's designs of having a second front for Pak(from Afghanistan) is neutralized.

I say install a friendly/stable government in Afghanistan...that will sign an official agreement putting to rest idiotic crap like Durand line claims and Pushtunistan...making the borders permanent. Bring peace and stability to Afghanistan and the region, ensure that Afghan territory isn't used for anti US activities(payment to US), give a few contracts also as payment(from Afghan government to US companies, Chinese companies, etc. for development in various sectors)...basically all the parties vying for influence that was destabilizing the region can come together and take a piece of the pie. I know it's a rather corrupt way of doing things...but it's the lesser of the two evils. At least this way ppl in Afghanistan can enjoy some peace and prosperity and Pak can be worry free on it's Western front. This would be a strategic victory for Pak(neutralizing Indian plans that were decades in the making) and it would give a sort of victory to the US too(making sure Afghanistan isnt used as a base for anti US activities).

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## fatman17

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Your source please. Very outlandish claim

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## untitled

pakistanipower said:


> F-16 doesn't have the radar scatting fuselages/coatings/treatments


Block 70 does have Ram coatings.
@Khafee and @Tps43 did mention a Have Glass project for the Vipers

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## Riz

@Khafee bro i wish i had 100s of thanks buttons here on PDF for u... I was expecting this but couldn't believe we will get theae beasts so easily with the efforts of our PM and COAS... Great day today

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## Ultima Thule

GIANTsasquatch said:


> *weapons pod


Fuselage is not and add more RCS for those weapon pod for F-16 @GIANTsasquatch


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## FuturePAF

Yaseen1 said:


> I think we should not be limited to f16s but also focus on other fighterjets program to maintain air superiority



This is the perfect time to try to acquire the Gulf Mirages, along side more used F-16s that can be put through an F-16V upgrade program.

*We should renew the efforts from a few years ago to acquire the 89 Emirati and Qatari Mirage 2000s*; replacing our entire Mirage 3/5 Fleet with air frames that could serve another 20 years and help us diversify the fleet. What do you think the prospects of this acquisition? @Khafee

If i'm not mistaken General Bajwa personally spoke to the Emiratis to acquire the jets.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/uae-pakistan-and-mirage-2000-9s.473162/

This should be seen as a plus by the West, especially European firms looking to sell equipment to modernize these jets such as Leonardo. Pakistan will forgo acquiring new J-10s @$60 million each; so that it can acquire Mirage 2000s @ brotherly prices and spend hundreds of millions on upgrades for some if not all with _modern AESA, EW Equipment, Datalinks, and Modern munitions such as the MICA and possibly the *Meteor*_.

*PAF pilots probably have decades of experience flying these jets for the Emiratis and Qataris, so the learning curve will be short if not non-existent.* Acquiring their entire support infrastructure, spares, munitions, etc. can be done lock stock and barrel, now that the Emiratis and Qataris are acquiring Typhoons, Rafales, and Advanced American planes to replace them.
==============

18-24 Block 72 F-16s and 50-60 more used F-16s will allow the PAF to add to their current 76 F-16s and field *9 full strength F-16 squadrons*.

89 Mirage 2000s will allow the PAF to field *5 full strength Mirage 2000 squadrons* and the 188 JF-17s can form *11-12 JF-17 squadrons* to round out the entire force at 25-26 squadrons. A Full modernization of the PAF; all in a few years time, and in the most economical way. @MastanKhan

*The WEST should back this as it can be seen as diversifying suppliers and international partners. The CHINESE should back this, because it is the most economical, and allows Pakistan to focus on the economy; so that it can attract western FDI, and full realize the CPEC goal. FRANCE and the Europeans shoudl back this because they have already secured the rafale deal, and can secure hundreds of millions if not a billion dollars worth of upgrades in the next few years. *

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## Ultima Thule

member.exe said:


> Block 70 does have Ram coatings.
> @Khafee and @Tps43 did mention Have Glass project for the Vipers


only one tech doesn't make F-16 a true stealth jet but reduce RCS F-16 @member.exe


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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> Well as @Khafee has stated that they are Block 72, which means they're going to be brand-spanking-new off the assembly line in South Carolina.
> 
> No AirForce currently has the Block 70/72
> 
> Emmm, not that i'm questioning your reply, but there are quite a few other AirForces that have placed (confirmed) orders.
> 1. Bahrain
> 2. Slovakia
> 3. Iraq
> 4. Morocco
> 5. Taiwan (debatable)
> 6. Bulgaria
> 
> But then, it all depends on whom they'd like to prioritize.


First to clarify to people, but F-16V is the designation for Block 70/72. Just like Block 60 ones are labeled as F-16E/F.

Taiwan's first F-16V, pictured below, first flew in 2018 and is undergoing comprehensive flight testing.

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## untitled

pakistanipower said:


> only one tech doesn't make F-16 a true stealth jet but reduce RCS F-16 @member.exe


Isn't that good enough for you for an aircraft that was not built for stealth from the ground up?


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## GreyHat

So i have a question?
It is more or less looking like that Pakistan will go for F-16V
And of course we are not economically strong, So does that mean that J10-c will be postponed for a while?


----------



## The Accountant

Philip the Arab said:


> I'm not fucking Indian dumbass. I have the right to express my views within reason even if you don't agree with them. **** off my ***.


Hy mind your language ... sorry if they r views then they r really stupid and kiddish ...

And u r not expressing your viws but trolling


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## Whirling_dervesh

Imagine this was true.....India the international man child would throw an absolute hissy fit like a true titty baby as it usually does. I would love to see that happen on that basis alone.

Sadly not to put a dampener on this silly thread, a decision like that would change the dynamics of the last 20 years of US indo-Pacific strategy. I can understand and accept for zulus and Block 52 but bot block 70, it just seems too far fetched...then again this is trump your darling with, anything can happen! Hope it's TRUE only because it would be so funny to watch bhangees self implode

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## Ultima Thule

member.exe said:


> Isn't that good enough for you for an aircraft that was not built for stealth from the ground up?


its main advantage of it advanced avionics @member.exe


----------



## Dr. Abdul Basit

*Approval to support US-built aircraft for the south Asian rivals India and Pakistan were passed by the US State Department*
Approval to support US-built aircraft for the south Asian rivals India and Pakistan were passed by the US State Department (AFP Photo/Alastair Pike)


Washington (AFP) - Washington on Friday approved $125 million worth of support for Pakistan's F-16 warplanes, and also $670 worth of support for India's C-17 transport planes.

Approval to support US-built aircraft for the two south Asian rivals were approved by the US State Department, and announced simultaneously by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency.

The approval for technical and logistics support for Pakistan's F-16s comes just days after Prime Minister Imran Khan met with US President Donald Trump at the White House.


----------



## Max

Don't believe rumors.


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## Dr. Abdul Basit

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.y...support-pakistans-f-16s-indias-230932266.html


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## untitled

Khafee said:


> SD-10's were sent from PLAAF inventory.


SD-10s or did you mean PL-15s? We already had SD10s

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## guest9999

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.


This makes sense, I would figure the US-Indian alliance will come to an end at some point. The US has sold India pretty sophisticated hardware and yet, India has not returned the favor. US extended India certain privileges in missile technology and even intel sharing, communication networks. *It has not confronted China and has not even come close to being the "hedge" that the US wanted it to be*. This idea was probably spoon-fed to US policy makers by the Indian lobby and scholars of Indian-origin working at thinktanks. It's similar to the illegal Indian job network here in the US - they promote their own Indian resumes to jobs and throw competent non-Indian resumes in the trash. It ended up wasting a decade of US time, money, and they foolishly gave up so much of their technology in exchange for nothing. *India has failed the US in confronting China*. The Indians literally think that they can extract maximum benefits from US due to their lobbying and do nothing in exchange.

Now the US is moving towards doing the confrontation *itself* with its own weapons. Hence, you see the push towards hypersonic missiles, laser weaponry, long range rockets and missiles for island warfare. India has no place in the calculus.

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## FuturePAF

Arsalan 345 said:


> There is passion for our country.we know how we performed against iaf on Feb 27.we want more air battles and we want air Superiority and for air Superiority,we need more f-16s.i think we love this plane because it's amazing.this news make me crazy.it clearly means that visit of ik was successful.



The Great Yeager said it best. I think he would be proud it still holds true today.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/597974829053050880

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## Avicenna

Cookie Monster said:


> This deal if it materializes(in combination with JF17 block III) for sure will balance out IAF's Rafales and considerable numbers of Su30MKI and Mirage 2K. I assume the immediate "payment" would be ensuring a smooth exit of US from Afghanistan and helping install a government(Afghan Taliban...or maybe Afghan Taliban in coalition with some other powerful factions) that will cater to US interests in Afghanistan to an extent. This is fine from a security perspective (Pak's security perspective)...as long as India's designs of having a second front for Pak(from Afghanistan) is neutralized.
> 
> I say install a friendly/stable government in Afghanistan...that will sign an official agreement putting to rest idiotic crap like Durand line claims and Pushtunistan...making the borders permanent. Bring peace and stability to Afghanistan and the region, ensure that Afghan territory isn't used for anti US activities(payment to US), give a few contracts also as payment(from Afghan government to US companies, Chinese companies, etc. for development in various sectors)...basically all the parties vying for influence that was destabilizing the region can come together and take a piece of the pie. I know it's a rather corrupt way of doing things...but it's the lesser of the two evils. At least this way ppl in Afghanistan can enjoy some peace and prosperity and Pak can be worry free on it's Western front. This would be a strategic victory for Pak(neutralizing Indian plans that were decades in the making) and it would give a sort of victory to the US too(making sure Afghanistan isnt used as a base for anti US activities).



Agree completely.

This is a major win in the short to medium term.

The real issue is years down the line vis a vis China.


----------



## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hahahahahahahaha


Typical jurno talking cluelessly about the defence related news

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## Sabretooth

I pray that this deal materializes and strengthen our armed forces.

Alhamdulillah PAF is one of few airforces that can handle and properly utilize the capabilities of F-16s. In short, PAF is worth having these birds.

In a not so distant future, if a Block-70/72 brought down a Rafale, French, like the Russians, would be cursing the Indians and Americans.

There might be a possibility that this favor to Pakistan is a punishment to India for sticking with S-400.

It seems that in the future, the PAF fleet will mostly consist of F-16s and Thunders so upon the retirement of Mirages, if there is any plan for the induction of delta-winged strike weapon as a replacement then I think J-10 C could be a wise choice

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## Cookie Monster

Avicenna said:


> Agree completely.
> 
> This is a major win in the short to medium term.
> 
> The real issue is years down the line vis a vis China.


I don't think that's an issue. China and US don't have to be "rivals" in terms of Afghanistan...in a twisted way they can do what European powers once did to Africa in Berlin conference...everyone got a piece of the pie. Like I said before it's not perfect nor fair to the ppl of Afghanistan but it is lesser of the two evils. If u trace back the history of current Afghan mess u will see that it leads back to the era of cold war. World powers vying for influence and a government bowing down to them. It included US, USSR, and by extension Pak(being in US camp and anti USSR) and Afghanistani ppl...nowadays China is also involved in the mix...and though USSR doesn't exist...still Russia has interests there. So instead of all this infighting...might as well install a government that is not hostile to anyone but is rather good for business. Installing puppet governments isn't something new both, US, Russia, and even China and Pak have some experience in this. This puppet government of sorts can throw US, China, Russia all kinds of contracts to develop infrastructure, power grid, Telecom services, etc. Afghanistan can be connected to projects like TAPI and CPEC and all can rejoice in this cruel twisted "peace" of sorts. IMO it's much better than the average Afghani man struggling to survive in a hostile environment.


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## FuturePAF

Philip the Arab said:


> I worry that Pakistan will share AESA tech with China to improve AESA manufacturing capability. Relations with the US will be 100% cut if something like this is exposed.



The PAF and American maintenance crews will see to it that doesn't happen. Besides, the Source codes and algorithms will not be shared with the PAF.

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## Riz

Starlord said:


> In fact Zulu were never been stopped, All America said that you pay you get your choppers we will not pay from CSF . This is one simple fact which a lot of Pakistani's miss , that America did not stop the sale of Zulu nor the 8 F-16 offered around 1-2 years ago, Pakistan just refused to pay from their own pockets, they wanted these weapons to be paid from the CSF which America Cut off . Now if America release those payments, they will just use the CSF to pay for these Zulu's and Possibly F-16's . Its almost same as that Israel get 3 Billion dollar Military Aid from America but its conditioned to be used to only Purchase American weapons .


Dont forget to tag few of our great think tank analyst & professionals of this forum...


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## FuturePAF

Sabretooth said:


> I pray that this deal materializes and strengthen our armed forces.
> 
> Alhamdulillah PAF is one of few airforces that can handle and properly utilize the capabilities of F-16s. In short, PAF is worth having these birds.
> 
> In a not so distant future, if a Block-70/72 brought down a Rafale, French, like the Russians, would be cursing the Indians and Americans.
> 
> There might be a possibility that this favor to Pakistan is a punishment to India for sticking with S-400.
> 
> It seems that in the future, the PAF fleet will mostly consist of F-16s and Thunders so upon the retirement of Mirages, if there is any plan for the induction of delta-winged strike weapon as a replacement then I think J-10 C could be a wise choice
> 
> View attachment 571012


This is the time the PAF should try to acquire the Emirati and Qatari Mirage 2000s at brotherly prices, and put in a few key upgrades. PAF should try to keep access to European munitions for its fleet.

89 Mirage 2000-9 Standard
154 F-16 Block 72/V Standard
188 JF-17 Block II/III Standard

Now doesn't that look like a formidable force, and the best part is, it could become a reality in only 5-6 years

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## Spectre

I really wish that this sweet dream comes true. It would be really fun and beneficial for India then.

India has been taking it easy for last decade and has not made any significant capex in Defense Industry barring few stop gap measures in case of extreme emergency. Our defence spending on capex in real terms of GDP is a fraction of what our enemies spend.

This deal will wake up our idiot politicians and expect thorough revamp of our air force. few dozen new F-16s for Pakistan is a small price to pay for such a wake up call.

*One should never fear enemy capabilities but our own complacency, rot and decadence. 
*
@Nilgiri

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## Armchair

This is part of Trump's mediation into the Kashmir problem... a really effective solution. Endians are going to be at the end of a long, sharp, stick.

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## I.R.A

Cookie Monster said:


> I just have one question...Trump has so far been hell bent on not giving "handouts" to other countries. This even included NATO where he basically told those countries to pull their own weight instead of overly relying on US. He even suggested that Japan and South Korea should step up and take care of their own defense needs. So my question is how is Trump on board for this upgrade of F16s. I would only expect that he is fine with it as long as Pak is paying for all of this...which I don't think Pak can at the moment. If US is going to cover some of this under CSF or something like that...then I expect Trump would be against it. Could u shine some light on this? Or is it something that u can't reveal yet?



A certain crown prince saying "consider me your country's ambassador in my own country" and a certain president saying "I told the king I like / love you ..........." coupled with Pakistan's image in world getting a big boost courtesy IK ........ I don't know which one of our neighbors should start worrying, the superstitious extremist ones or the ones who dreamt of redeeming past glory and pride. 

Just an amateur brief analysis.

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## PDF

Khafee, u da man, bruh!

Any news on:

T129 Engines etc exemptions for Pakistan.
Swift covettes from US.
Possible radar for Milgem.

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## Sabretooth

FuturePAF said:


> This is the time the PAF should try to acquire the Emirati and Qatari Mirage 2000s at brotherly prices, and put in a few key upgrades. PAF should try to keep access to European munitions for its fleet.
> 
> 89 Mirage 2000-9 Standard
> 154 F-16 Block 72/V Standard
> 188 JF-17 Block II/III Standard
> 
> Now doesn't that look like a formidable force, and the best part is, it could become a reality in only 5-6 years



The above configuration would infact even the odds in favor of PAF. These Mirages could go a long way in serving the operational requirements of PAF plus transition from existing 3/5 to the 2000 will be comparatively easier.

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## Beethoven

I remember @MastanKhan saying this a long time ago....if the US realises that you already possess a piece of technology, they will not hesitate to sell it to you...case in point is AESA radar....we will be getting AESA techonology in the form of Block 3 therefore the willingness of the Americans to sell us APG 83 along with all the relevant tech....

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Blk70 =APG-83
> F35 = APG-81
> 
> No the ban was unfair, just like a thread that showed the UAE in a positive light, and its part in the Feb hostilities, was shut down.
> On an on an unbiased platform, the mod would have been shown the door.



Khafee for PM of Defence.pk

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## Myth_buster_1

Expecting AIM-9X and AIM-120C7 along with more F-16s

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## Cookie Monster

I.R.A said:


> A certain crown prince saying "consider me your country's ambassador in my own country" and a certain president saying "I told the king I like / love you ..........." coupled with Pakistan's image in world getting a big boost courtesy IK ........ I don't know which one of our neighbors should start worrying, the superstitious extremist ones or the ones who dreamt of redeeming past glory and pride.
> 
> Just an amateur brief analysis.


Speaking of the crown prince... remember how Trump couldn't contain his excitement when MBS signed billions of dollars worth of deals? While he easily shrugged away long time NATO allies just bcuz they weren't pulling their own weight. Hence my question...Trump wouldn't mind at all and would welcome Pak if Pak was purchasing the block 70(new + upgrade). If however US is going to subsidize it in some manner(CSF or something else) then he wouldn't be too thrilled about it(as evident by his past actions). This is why I was curious as to how he would approve such a thing since he mostly likes to deal in cold hard cash and is very much against what he considers to be "handouts". He is not the type to give up monetary value for a strategic gain in the future. Since Pak isn't in the position to pay for all of this...chances are US is going to subsidize it if this happens. So my question is Uncle Trump ko kaise jaib mein le liya?

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## FuturePAF

Sabretooth said:


> The above configuration would infact even the odds in favor of PAF. These Mirages could go a long way in serving the operational requirements of PAF plus transition from existing 3/5 to the 2000 will be comparatively easier.



Plus the PAF has probably already been flying these jets for the Emiratis and Qataris for years. It would only be a matter of ferrying them over to Pakistan and shipping the support equipment along with it. 5 Mirages per Squadron can get AESA upgrades per squadron and 2 Mirages per squadron should get the latest Jamming pods from Europe, and you can build a capable strike force to rival the best of the IAF; including their Rafales.

With the Mirages; the PAF can try to get the Mica, Meteor, and long range guided bombs/missiles. It would change balance the strategic order, and force India to listen to the Kashmiri people. They would have to give up threatening to use force, and finally resolve the Kashmir dispute, so the Billion plus people of the subcontinent can get on to the business of raising the living standard of the people.

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## The SC

Great news for Pakistan, as getting the most advanced technologies for the F-16 will open the door to other land and sea sophisticated technologies and systems..

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## imadul

Starlord said:


> In fact Zulu were never been stopped, All America said that you pay you get your choppers we will not pay from CSF . This is one simple fact which a lot of Pakistani's miss , that America did not stop the sale of Zulu nor the 8 F-16 offered around 1-2 years ago, Pakistan just refused to pay from their own pockets, they wanted these weapons to be paid from the CSF which America Cut off . Now if America release those payments, they will just use the CSF to pay for these Zulu's and Possibly F-16's . Its almost same as that Israel get 3 Billion dollar Military Aid from America but its conditioned to be used to only Purchase American weapons .


You mean FMS!
CSF, Pakistan expenditure providing logistics, ops support, anti terror ops in FATA, bases, Intel etc, etc. Thats reimbursement Pakistan shoul get in its kitty.

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## I.R.A

Spectre said:


> I really wish that this sweet dream comes true. It would be really fun and beneficial for India then.
> 
> India has been taking it easy for last decade and has not made any significant capex in Defense Industry barring few stop gap measures in case of extreme emergency. Our defence spending on capex in real terms of GDP is a fraction of what our enemies spend.
> 
> This deal will wake up our idiot politicians and expect thorough revamp of our air force. few dozen new F-16s for Pakistan is a small price to pay for such a wake up call.
> 
> *One should never fear enemy capabilities but our own complacency, rot and decadence.
> *
> @Nilgiri




Whether you like it or not ............

They should not have killed innocent Pakistanis including children in that decade. Everything remained Pakistan centric, how to harm Pakistan covertly, how not to play cricket with them, how to use Pakistan bashing for election campaigns, how to support terrorists in Pakistan, how to sabotage every possibility of talks between the two.

Now you talk of rot and decadence and blame that ........ at one point your country didn't even consider us worthy enough.

Please don't make it look like you didn't spend and do everything to make your enemy weak ....... its just that the method you opted didn't pay off.

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## Avicenna

Cookie Monster said:


> I don't think that's an issue. China and US don't have to be "rivals" in terms of Afghanistan...in a twisted way they can do what European powers once did to Africa in Berlin conference...everyone got a piece of the pie. Like I said before it's not perfect nor fair to the ppl of Afghanistan but it is lesser of the two evils. If u trace back the history of current Afghan mess u will see that it leads back to the era of cold war. World powers vying for influence and a government bowing down to them. It included US, USSR, and by extension Pak(being in US camp and anti USSR) and Afghanistani ppl...nowadays China is also involved in the mix...and though USSR doesn't exist...still Russia has interests there. So instead of all this infighting...might as well install a government that is not hostile to anyone but is rather good for business. Installing puppet governments isn't something new both, US, Russia, and even China and Pak have some experience in this. This puppet government of sorts can throw US, China, Russia all kinds of contracts to develop infrastructure, power grid, Telecom services, etc. Afghanistan can be connected to projects like TAPI and CPEC and all can rejoice in this cruel twisted "peace" of sorts. IMO it's much better than the average Afghani man struggling to survive in a hostile environment.



When I mentioned China I wasn't referring to Afghanistan.

IMO as time goes on, you're gonna have a more assertive China, namely in the Pacific.

This is gonna set up global friction.

Pakistan is obviously gonna be affected by this (as are alot of other states)

This of course resembles more a Cold War type scenario with allied nations etc etc.

But I don't see this happening until China develops a TRUE Blue water navy and is regularly in the Eastern Pacific.

But I digress.

If this F-16 deal is true, I am really happy.

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## Zhukov

Give our Young ones Skilled Visa Categories and Investment in our Industry if you want to give Aid to us.
for God sake no more weapons on aid Please. 
Buy and Develop Weapons that you can afford with your own Finance and limit your hostilities to that capability you can afford. Stop bankrupting our country with this trend.


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## I.R.A

Cookie Monster said:


> Speaking of the crown prince... remember how Trump couldn't contain his excitement when MBS signed billions of dollars worth of deals? While he easily shrugged away long time NATO allies just bcuz they weren't pulling their own weight. Hence my question...Trump wouldn't mind at all and would welcome Pak if Pak was purchasing the block 70(new + upgrade). If however US is going to subsidize it in some manner(CSF or something else) then he wouldn't be too thrilled about it(as evident by his past actions). This is why I was curious as to how he would approve such a thing since he mostly likes to deal in cold hard cash and is very much against what he considers to be "handouts". He is not the type to give up monetary value for a strategic gain in the future. Since Pak isn't in the position to pay for all of this...chances are US is going to subsidize it if this happens. So my question is Uncle Trump ko kaise jaib mein le liya?



He may have done a cost benefit analysis, koi na koi guarantees aur assurances di ho gi Pakistan nay. For Pakistan unfortunately for many years we didn't have competent enough people who would know how to talk to Americans. And good thing about IK is he doesn't want any deals behind the doors.

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## Cookie Monster

Avicenna said:


> When I mentioned China I wasn't referring to Afghanistan.
> 
> IMO as time goes on, you're gonna have a more assertive China, namely in the Pacific.
> 
> This is gonna set up global friction.
> 
> Pakistan is obviously gonna be affected by this (as are alot of other states)
> 
> This of course resembles more a Cold War type scenario with allied nations etc etc.
> 
> But I don't see this happening until China develops a TRUE Blue water navy and is regularly in the Eastern Pacific.
> 
> But I digress.
> 
> If this F-16 deal is true, I am really happy.


With that I agree. It would put Pak in a difficult spot when China is at that level. Pak would have to tread carefully there and try it's very best not to end up in a situation where it would have to pick one over the other.


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## Avicenna

Cookie Monster said:


> Speaking of the crown prince... remember how Trump couldn't contain his excitement when MBS signed billions of dollars worth of deals? While he easily shrugged away long time NATO allies just bcuz they weren't pulling their own weight. Hence my question...Trump wouldn't mind at all and would welcome Pak if Pak was purchasing the block 70(new + upgrade). If however US is going to subsidize it in some manner(CSF or something else) then he wouldn't be too thrilled about it(as evident by his past actions). This is why I was curious as to how he would approve such a thing since he mostly likes to deal in cold hard cash and is very much against what he considers to be "handouts". He is not the type to give up monetary value for a strategic gain in the future. Since Pak isn't in the position to pay for all of this...chances are US is going to subsidize it if this happens. So my question is Uncle Trump ko kaise jaib mein le liya?



Scenario 1) US is subsidizing but Pakistan has to deliver in a BIG way. i.e. facilitate US exit from Afghanistan.

Scenario 2) SA/UAE paying up for Pakistani support regarding any Iran scenario or at least neutrality.

My money is on Scenario 1.

Also, I think Trump and IK get along well. That doesn't hurt either.

Plus Lindsey Graham seems to like IK as well.

They may think they have someone they can work with finally as IK seems to be a straight shooter.

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## FuturePAF

Philip the Arab said:


> I said I fear the will, and they have in the past with the downed stealth blackhawk. Take care of yourself and don't stress over my opinions because they don't agree with you.
> 
> Here a Pakistani source...


*The Chinese bought 24 Black Hawks in the 80s directly from the US

http://aviationintel.com/did-you-know-that-china-flies-uh-60-blackhawks/*


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## The SC

Cookie Monster said:


> Speaking of the crown prince... remember how Trump couldn't contain his excitement when MBS signed billions of dollars worth of deals? While he easily shrugged away long time NATO allies just bcuz they weren't pulling their own weight. Hence my question...Trump wouldn't mind at all and would welcome Pak if Pak was purchasing the block 70(new + upgrade). If however US is going to subsidize it in some manner(CSF or something else) then he wouldn't be too thrilled about it(as evident by his past actions). This is why I was curious as to how he would approve such a thing since he mostly likes to deal in cold hard cash and is very much against what he considers to be "handouts". He is not the type to give up monetary value for a strategic gain in the future. Since Pak isn't in the position to pay for all of this...chances are US is going to subsidize it if this happens. So my question is Uncle Trump ko kaise jaib mein le liya?


Maybe Pakistan will be paying for the new Vs and most upgrades will long time loans from KSA and the UAE, while the US will subsidize the rest.. there has to be hard cash for Trump to go along with the deal..

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## aliyusuf

@Khafee any information on what sort of missiles be on offer? I mean will it be AIM-120(C-5 or C-7 or D)? Any news on AIM-9X be on offer?

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## MastanKhan

Beethoven said:


> I remember @MastanKhan saying this a long time ago....if the US realises that you already possess a piece of technology, they will not hesitate to sell it to you...case in point is AESA radar....we will be getting AESA techonology in the form of Block 3 therefore the willingness of the Americans to sell us APG 83 along with all the relevant tech....



Hi,

Thank you for your post---and thank you for remembering---.

@Khafee mentioned in his post---the US just realized that pakistan has become another chinese state---basically an autonomous region and it happened right in front of their eyes when they had intentionally or un-intentionally turned on the snooze button---.

What was really shocking as to how could america let that happen---was it out of sheer negligence---incompetence or just that america did not care at all---or someone forgot to turn on the rewind button---but regardless it did happen.

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## FuturePAF

Khafee said:


> Other than the Apache, Zulu has no competition.Sorry!
> 
> Then again the Zulus 80+% commonality with UH-1 / Bell 412, insures it remains embargo proof, to a very great extent.



Is Pakistan seeking to acquire UH-1Ys? Pakistan leased some a few years ago; is there an effort being made to acquire some permanently; especially to support the Western border security / Counter-Terrorism Mission?


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## Sugarcane

At the moment, it looks too good to be true. But I hope it get materialize.

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## Avicenna

Also this may be somewhat of a stick to India.

Whether its for the S-400 purchase or just general non acquiescence to US interests.

The US may have put its eggs in India's basket too early and has realized this.

But things can always change.

I still see the US viewing India as a hedge against China.

However, India has alot of work to do as evidenced by the events of Feb. 27th.

This F-16 sale may be a fire to light under their tail.

Whatever the motivation, never underestimate the minds working in Washington.

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## Imran Khan

not interested

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## Cookie Monster

Avicenna said:


> Scenario 1) US is subsidizing but Pakistan has to deliver in a BIG way. i.e. facilitate US exit from Afghanistan.
> 
> Scenario 2) SA/UAE paying up for Pakistani support regarding any Iran scenario or at least neutrality.
> 
> My money is on Scenario 1.
> 
> Also, I think Trump and IK get along well. That doesn't hurt either.
> 
> Plus Lindsey Graham seems to like IK as well.
> 
> They may think they have someone they can work with finally as IK seems to be a straight shooter.


I find Lindsey Graham and the likes of him to be sell outs. Put simply they r happy to advocate for whoever is giving them loads of money. India has been very successfully lobbying and buying up US congressmen. So their loyalties or lack thereof don't concern me since they r temporary and entirely based on where the money is coming from. For now the US policy towards Pak is entirely dependent on the US deepstate and Trump. Congress can at best create hurdles in executing that policy in the current political scenario.

As for Trump and IK getting along...yeah Trump is that kind of guy...if he likes u he is willing to bend some rules for u. So it's great that he got along well with IK. I also agree that it's most likely scenario 1 but just ensuring a safe exit from Afghanistan in return for all these block 70 F16s seems too little of a gain. I think there's more to it than that...only time will tell. Whatever the price maybe...in the face of IAF numbers and getting Rafales(with meteor and other goodies)...to counter it and keep India at bay, that price is worth it.

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## rana MRL

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad



Sir due respect... At this moments and now on china is stratrgic partner forseable future.... America is untrustworthy ..... Better to balance between both of them as pakistan interest can not be harmed .... Milking America for better benefits by not dumping china as strategic partner ...


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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


now i will asked for ban you its very bad news

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## Avicenna

Cookie Monster said:


> I find Lindsey Graham and the likes of him to be sell outs. Put simply they r happy to advocate for whoever is giving them loads of money. India has been very successfully lobbying and buying up US congressmen. So their loyalties or lack thereof don't concern me since they r temporary and entirely based on where the money is coming from. For now the US policy towards Pak is entirely dependent on the US deepstate and Trump. Congress can at best create hurdles in executing that policy in the current political scenario.
> 
> As for Trump and IK getting along...yeah Trump is that kind of guy...if he likes u he is willing to bend some rules for u. So it's great that he got along well with IK. I also agree that it's most likely scenario 1 but just ensuring a safe exit from Afghanistan in return for all these block 70 F16s seems too little of a gain. I think there's more to it than that...only time will tell. Whatever the price maybe...in the face of IAF numbers and getting Rafales(with meteor and other goodies)...to counter it and keep India at bay, that price is worth it.



18-24 Block 72 really isn't alot to Uncle Sam.

If the US can extract itself from Afghanistan under favorable terms AND optics, that is a small price to pay.

Perhaps it will be sold as major victory for Trump to the American people in an election year.

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## Cookie Monster

Avicenna said:


> 18-24 Block 72 really isn't alot to Uncle Sam.
> 
> If the US can extract itself from Afghanistan under favorable optics, that is a small price to pay.


TBH US is fully capable of safely exiting Afghanistan all on its own. It's the aftermath they want to have some control over...whether directly or indirectly. Exerting that control directly isn't an option bcuz that's what they tried to do ever since they invaded...the Afghan government they installed is a failure...the Afghan forces they tried to build up to make sure that Afghan government remains in power is a failure. Prolonging that effort would only bleed more of US money and effort with no end in sight...forever locked in this stalemate. They can pack up and leave today if they want to...but that only means all this effort and money they spent goes to waste. They can't claim a victory...and worse Afghanistan can go back to what it was(the very thing for which WoT was started)...a breeding ground for anti US armed groups. With Pak onboard, US can after it's exit try to install a Pak and US friendly government...and that I think is the payment...not just a safe exit.

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## mingle

Anwar72 said:


> What is the big deal with F-16s ?? Why should india bother with 18 more of them ?
> 
> US has been trying to sell then to india for 12 years , it has been lobbying , cajoling ,making enticing offer like shifting the entire manufacturing unit to india , made whole new version called F-21 specifically for india , has partnered with India's TATA to make them india .
> 
> Still India didn't buy f-16 and went for Rafales which costs three times more . It wont buy them in future too as India is looking to Buy F-35 .


Mehnat ker hasad na ker

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## My-Analogous

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Always love you brother, no matter what, Hope this time they go for 24 and after delivery starts they start upgrading those in Turkey

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## FuturePAF

pakistanipower said:


> F-16 doesn't have the radar scatting fuselages/coatings/treatments etc etc and last if they will do upon customer request then it will expensive and weapons bays makes least effect on F-16 RCS @Philip the Arab
> 
> 
> again you diverting the topic, stay on topic you idiot @Philip the Arab



We should just get the best jamming pods with DRFM we can get for these F-16s. That should "lower" the RCS as much as possible.

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## Pakistansdefender

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Again please tell us the source....
We have celebrated , enjoyed and all.
But you didn't mention your source and there is no concrete evidence to prove or point that this deal would materialise and if it did our economy would not be able to fund it . Knowing trump would not give you for free and if you do afghan settlement and later find them going backfoot on their promise .... Then what can we do.
Histroy is there for us to see .

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## mingle

My-Analogous said:


> Always love you brother, no matter what, Hope this time they go for 24 and after delivery starts they start upgrading those in Turkey


I don't think upgrade will done by Raytheon herself it's about 2 to 3 billions they won't let go


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## IceCold

Oscar said:


> I would wait until the Chicks actually hatch. Right now the chicken hasnt laid the eggs, we’ve just been told it will.


Whats your take on Chinese standby their assets for Pakistan and their navy was actually deployed?


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

This euphoria is going to wear out pretty soon---. What they say---'the devil is in the detail---'.

What is in the fine print---what the US wants and what can Pakistan do for them---.

I personally think that pakistan should keeps its focus on the J10 CE---the BLK70 is a great gesture---. I won't hold my breath till I see it in Paf colors on the pakistan air base tarmac---.

What else does the US want---? Does it want pakistan to roll back its program with china---? 

This 3 day weekend has shown some things that were not supposed to happen---the visuals of meeting with Trump & IK and Gen Bajwa and others are confoundedly over powering---.

They were not supposed to happen in that manner & for that reason---there truly is a lots of confusion in the air---.

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## Armchair

Philip the Arab said:


> I'm an American and my family pays taxes to the us which goes into R&D for radars. Thereby they are my tech too.



This fellow is just a child on the internet. I would not be surprised if he is a 13 year old. Remember, "his family" pays taxes.

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## CodeforFood

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This euphoria is going to wear out pretty soon---. What they say---'the devil is in the detail---'.
> 
> What is in the fine print---what the US wants and what can Pakistan do for them---.
> 
> I personally think that pakistan should keeps its focus on the J10 CE---the BLK70 is a great gesture---. I won't hold my breath till I see it in Paf colors on the pakistan air base tarmac---.
> 
> What else does the US want---? Does it want pakistan to roll back its program with china---?
> 
> This 3 day weekend has shown some things that were not supposed to happen---the visuals of meeting with Trump & IK and Gen Bajwa and others are confoundedly over powering---.
> 
> They were not supposed to happen in that manner & for that reason---there truly is a lots of confusion in the air---.


Yep!
Just to remind "We did not come here for the aid". We are still falling under the same trap that will put us under.


----------



## PakShaheen79

For me, this will be only true if these Block-70s land in Pakistan with PAF insignia on them. Till then, not very excited. (Ab bohat baar ho chuka yeh Drama) ....

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## M.Bison

Philip the Arab said:


> Aren't they upgradeable? American AESA is much better than KLJ-7A though.
> 
> Why can Pakistan not produce its own radars? Taiwan after having help for earlier radars is producing two AESA radars fot its jets from seperate companies using its indigenous semi conductor production as an asset.



Pakistan should try and produce its own radars and other parts. They have the talent but maybe not the engineering experience yet.


Avicenna said:


> Also this may be somewhat of a stick to India.
> 
> Whether its for the S-400 purchase or just general non acquiescence to US interests.
> 
> The US may have put its eggs in India's basket too early and has realized this.
> 
> But things can always change.
> 
> I still see the US viewing India as a hedge against China.
> 
> However, India has alot of work to do as evidenced by the events of Feb. 27th.
> 
> This F-16 sale may be a fire to light under their tail.
> 
> Whatever the motivation, never underestimate the minds working in Washington.



Trump needs peace in Afghanistan because of his obligations to his voters. I think Americans wanted to give Indians the title of head hancho in Afghanistan but post pulwama has shown how weak India really is. Its incompetency was fully exposed and Indians could only fool its own populace. It is fully clear now that India effectively lost the proxy war that it waged on Pakistan from Afghanistan. The world has also realized that the afghani equation can never be compete without Pakistan. So In the short term, especially if trump wins the elections then Pakistan will have enjoy a stable relationship with USA. In terms of military and economic aid, the America will try its best to cooperate with Pakistan to achieve a last peace within Afghanistan. I wonder what will happen if Democrats get elected..
Fortunately, India has shown that it cannot even wage a limited war let alone win against Pakistan. The dream that India would become a Vedic bulwark against Chinese expansion is another dream that is now turning into a nightmare for the Americans. 

So long story short Pakistan will not only get f-16 but believe me it will get other things too.

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## usman012

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/day...-sales-to-support-pak-f-16-jets-2076103?amp=1


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

At first I was very impressed with this photo---Trump hand unerneath and IK's hand on to---Trump giving it all to IT---.

But now the salesman in me has woken up---. This photo looks more like Trump has IK by the Ballz---and that is the scary part---.

Trump is sitting at the edge of his seat---he has that certain expression of " CLOSING THE SALE" on his face---as if he has signed the deal---. But what deal----????

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## SQ8

IceCold said:


> Whats your take on Chinese standby their assets for Pakistan and their navy was actually deployed?


Namkeen.

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## Armchair

member.exe said:


> SD-10s or did you mean PL-15s? We already had SD10s



I think he meant PL-15s but didn't say it to keep the enemy guessing.

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## SIPRA

There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip. Let us hope for the best.


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## Zarvan

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



So my friend was right, I doubted him and didn't wanted to share here so I won't sound stupid. But he was right
@Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah It's our common friend.

@Path-Finder @Arsalan @Oscar @Windjammer and others


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## ice_man

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!




please avoid posting fake news. no one said BLK 70s. don't make up stuff.

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## Zarvan

ice_man said:


> please avoid posting fake news. no one said BLK 70s. don't make up stuff.


The news is real I was told same by this wednesday at Hardees in Lahore.

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## ice_man

Zarvan said:


> The news is real I was told same by this wednesday at Hardees in Lahore.



where is the money. the money must have been spent in hardees. This is just a dream for now 125 million for support of current fleet of blk 52s only. along with 60 personnel


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mingle said:


> It was one well continue drilling wells in same blk will hit jackpot eventually. Norway first 32 wells went Dry patience needed in oil exploration


Ahh! If only folks had known oil exploration were 10% engineering and 90% geopolitics of the highest order.....

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## Zarvan

ice_man said:


> where is the money. the money must have been spent in hardees. This is just a dream for now 125 million for support of current fleet of blk 52s only. along with 60 personnel


Money issue would get resolved don't that is our headache but beasts are coming, specially after recent Balakot clashes LockHead Martin is very pleased by us. They consider giving us F-16 which would kick Indian best planes very rewarding for their empire.

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## Ghessan

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



Khafee, do you know the whole package? what about fire arms is there any AMRAAMS and sidewinders with versions? and the ground attack load?

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Cookie Monster said:


> Speaking of the crown prince... remember how Trump couldn't contain his excitement when MBS signed billions of dollars worth of deals? While he easily shrugged away long time NATO allies just bcuz they weren't pulling their own weight. Hence my question...Trump wouldn't mind at all and would welcome Pak if Pak was purchasing the block 70(new + upgrade). If however US is going to subsidize it in some manner(CSF or something else) then he wouldn't be too thrilled about it(as evident by his past actions). This is why I was curious as to how he would approve such a thing since he mostly likes to deal in cold hard cash and is very much against what he considers to be "handouts". He is not the type to give up monetary value for a strategic gain in the future. Since Pak isn't in the position to pay for all of this...chances are US is going to subsidize it if this happens. So my question is Uncle Trump ko kaise jaib mein le liya?


Afganistan carries “cash” in her womb!!! Pulling it out requires the Pak midwifeship....

The American CEOs love to close the “cost centers” and open the “revenue centers”!!! Afganistan has a humongous amount of Lithium used in the batteries of the EVs....

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## Sunny4pak

@Khafee @Trailer23
Sir with respect but nothing seems to be coming with regard to 8 Block52's or F16 Block70's. As per my assessment, there will be peanuts being offered by Uncle Sam here & there. Yes, they will float this news through media that the US is going to Offer Blk 70 to Pak in order to influence India's upcoming fighter jets procurement. There will be given n take between Pak & US from now onward as they want Pak to help them in Afghan evacuation & further trying to put pressure on India to keep them away from Russia in the long run.
It seems pre-planned from them that they banned/stopped everything in early 2018 & now trying to release just peanuts & thinking that Pak will be more than happy to get that.

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## Mrc

Pak shud not go for this... 

They will never be delivered will lack major weapons and cannot b upgradesupgraded

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## Avicenna

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> At first I was very impressed with this photo---Trump hand unerneath and IK's hand on to---Trump giving it all to IT---.
> 
> But now the salesman in me has woken up---. This photo looks more like Trump has IK by the Ballz---and that is the scary part---.
> 
> Trump is sitting at the edge of his seat---he has that certain expression of " CLOSING THE SALE" on his face---as if he has signed the deal---. But what deal----????



I think you may have a point there with this pic.

Still Block 72s will help the cause tactically, provided a sound long term strategy is kept in mind by Pakistan.

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## Indos

I rather want Pakistan focus on its economy rather than upgrading some of its F-16 into V configuration. I dont see this news as reliable though, unless it is financed by USA.


----------



## 8 pass charlie

I kindly request and beg all the seniors and experts to comment on this???cause I can't Controll myself now.cause this is out of nowhere.seems almost impossible to me coz yesterday I saw our Zulu's heading towards AMARG.and now block 70s.


----------



## Armchair

I think there are two major plans at play:

1. Pak will get Taliban to take over Afghanistan via elections so it is less shameful for the US. 
2. Pak will protect SA and UAE interests in the coming Iran war. 

The other issue is that with these F-16s coming, the Pak-Russian / Pak-China deal becomes insignificant as PAF is cannot absorb more than the JF-17 and F-16 simultaneously. 

Pak has to make sure that they get whatever equipment is being promised on a fast track and not get delayed into oblivion. 

Some additional thoughts:

1. Can some used equipment be part of the deal? And not only for the air force but for the army and the navy? How about some helicopters? Some APCs? 

2. Can the navy also get something, perhaps the Swift ships?

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## Pakhtoon yum

mingle said:


> F22? 500 million per copy 1 hr flight about 8 hrs maintenance


Nah, I meant PAF would've smartened up and went for something else that wasn't at the mercy of a foreign state, that could make those planes sitting ducks at any moment.



Microsoft said:


> What could be better than this?
> 
> 30-40 year old F-16s are giving Indians nightmares even today I might start investing in cardiac health care for IAF if I see these babies rolling in.


PAF commanding officers should be forced to commit seppuku, on the charges of sabotage and treason. if this deal is true.



Philip the Arab said:


> I'm an American and my family pays taxes to the us which goes into R&D for radars. Thereby they are my tech too.


If that's the case then the government shouldn't have an issue with you buying that radar because u paid taxes after all



Zarvan said:


> The news is real I was told same by this wednesday at Hardees in Lahore.


So state secrets are shared at fast food chains now? Pakistan is doomed

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## omegalamba7XL9

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Khafee---I did not expect it from you my man---.
> 
> The news about Kashmir solution has not even gotten old---and you have stuck your knife in and opened up a new wound---. Don't you know that it would create chaos and havoc in the ranks of the enemy---.
> 
> They did not even come to terms that Trump could say that---and yet you bring out your sledgehammer & pummel them some more---.
> 
> Oh---please be merciful---.


No Mercy for Indian's. Let this Afghanistan drama seize watch Pakistan unleash.
Indians cant guarantee American investment in Kashmir Pakistan can these are the facts on the ground. That should be second step for Pakistan engagement with Trump after he wins the election. He got the taste of Kashmir in his mouth he will make investment there. We just need to think before hand and all parties (China,local leaders) just in case things develop quickly and we are not doing the last minute thinking. Our areas of concerns and areas to be invested plans should be on the desk of PM before reelection in US.

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## SIPRA

Pakhtoon yum said:


> So state secrets are shared at fast food chains now? Pakistan is doomed



If state secrets can be discussed on pages after pages of PDF; then why not in Hardee?

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## Pakistansdefender

Zarvan said:


> The news is real I was told same by this wednesday at Hardees in Lahore.


Come on. 
Who told you guys....now you have us all hyper up and later to find this news fake. 
Your source is very classy meets you up in a fast food restaurant must be some fanboy like us.

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## Pakhtoon yum

RIWWIR said:


> If state secrets can be discussed on pages after pages of PDF; then why not in Hardee?


@Retired Troll we're doomed.

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## Pakistansdefender

Zarvan said:


> Money issue would get resolved don't that is our headache but beasts are coming, specially after recent Balakot clashes LockHead Martin is very pleased by us. They consider giving us F-16 which would kick Indian best planes very rewarding for their empire.


Oh really 
Come on you are not that dumb .
They are after Indians to buy whole assembly and now they want to gift us f16 . Why

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## aliyusuf

What version letter be assigned to signify the Block-70/72 single and double seat versions? Like the Block-60 single and double seat versions are signified by E & F respectively. Would want to know the same for the Block-70/72.


----------



## Zarvan

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Nah, I meant PAF would've smartened up and went for something else that wasn't at the mercy of a foreign state, that could make those planes sitting ducks at any moment.
> 
> 
> PAF commanding officers should be forced to commit seppuku, on the charges of sabotage and treason. if this deal is true.
> 
> 
> If that's the case then the government shouldn't have an issue with you buying that radar because u paid taxes after all
> 
> 
> So state secrets are shared at fast food chains now? Pakistan is doomed


Turns out it was a well known news in PAF and outside also I was the one who had no clue about it.

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## Sulemanms202

Pak. should not have asked US for this instead they should have asked TOT with training and development to increase our human capital's effectiveness and to curb our energy crisis as this would have led to economic independence and prosperity...very short sighted approach 

closeness to US only brings problems to pakistan

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## Maarkhoor

@Khafee 
Any news about Zulus?


----------



## skybolt



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## Pakhtoon yum

RIWWIR said:


> If state secrets can be discussed on pages after pages of PDF; then why not in Hardee?


@Retired Troll we're doomed.


Zarvan said:


> Turns out it was a well known news in PAF and outside also I was the one who had no clue about it.


Well in any case, I hope it's not true because more reliance on the US is a huge liability for state security.


----------



## Sulemanms202

more purchaes mean more import means more rupee devaluation mean more debt mean less per capita income mean less GDP... you work the equation for the next 5 years..

current fx rate wont roll back without increase in exports or FDI


----------



## Ghessan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post---and thank you for remembering---.
> 
> @Khafee mentioned in his post---the US just realized that pakistan has become another chinese state---basically an autonomous region and it happened right in front of their eyes when they had intentionally or un-intentionally turned on the snooze button---.
> 
> What was really shocking as to how could america let that happen---was it out of sheer negligence---incompetence or just that america did not care at all---or someone forgot to turn on the rewind button---but regardless it did happen.



America... we helped them with deliberately no or dirty diplomacy during last 10 years or so, paving the way for Indians to bring a backlash on diplomatic front and the surprise is were they really misjudged baniya and miscalculated their capabilities?

Feb 27! a decision by all the quarters in high offices and not to put burden on each other like it happened in the past, was seized to deliver. it was a blessing for us and an eye opener to many in the world and US in particular. had we let the bell ring loud and address the elements with a bigger bang in the air and in the sea, it would have bring a peace to the eastern front for an unlimited future.

still, this day bring a lot and trump was more willing to meet IM when he said "relations very good with Pakistan"
IK taking a position on his only visit is also because we had China in the backyard during Feb event with some goodies as @Khafee said. and with CPEC we have guaranteed China on our back with the world to see for a very long time.

the times comes when we stand on our own, we will be heard loud and clear. when will be that time come to begin with if it is not now?

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## MystryMan

Khafee said:


> Yes


If true we will surely get AIM-9X but AIM120D maybe not clear yet., maybe an upgraded version of C-series realistic.


----------



## Zarvan

8 pass charlie said:


> I kindly request and beg all the seniors and experts to comment on this???cause I can't Controll myself now.cause this is out of nowhere.seems almost impossible to me coz yesterday I saw our Zulu's heading towards AMARG.and now block 70s.


If those Zulus arrive fast than expect this news to be true also

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## untitled

MystryMan said:


> If true we will surely get AIM-9X but AIM120D


Ask for the AIM-260 and hopefully we will get the AIM-120D

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## SIPRA

member.exe said:


> Ask for the AIM-260 and hopefully we will get the AIM-120D



Apply for canon, to get a pistol.

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## KapitaanAli

I very much agree that Feb 27 was indeed an eye opener for LM and the Americans. It blew the last bit of their hopes that India would buy the F16.

So this news can be legit.

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## mourning sage

KapitaanAli said:


> I very much agree that Feb 27 was indeed an eye opener for LM and the Americans. It blew the last bit of their hopes that India would buy the F16.
> 
> So this news can be legit.


Why is it that you Indians look from an Indian centric prism only? Every news HAS to revolve around your mighty India. Attention seekers.

There are bigger games at play here. The wheels are turning. The world is changing. You guys tried and I acknowledge that. But you failed. It's our move now. Sit back and watch the show.

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## CHACHA"G"

*App kay moon main Ghi Shaker  Thanks for great news..  Hope and Prays for this to get materialize.. Pakistan ZindaBaad  *


Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


@MastanKhan , I remember you said something about this .. I also have the same believes as soon as PAF get J-10s and USA realise PAF don't need F-16s they will sell us … lol here we go .. Look like balancing move By USA after S-400 and Rafale deal from india..

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## KapitaanAli

mourning sage said:


> Why is it that you Indians look from an Indian centric prism only? Every news HAS to revolve around your mighty India. Attention seekers.
> 
> There are bigger games at play here. The wheels are turning. The world is changing. You guys tried and I acknowledge that. But you failed. It's our move now. Sit back and watch the show.


Oh come on. For the last few years, all you've seen from LM and the USA is the desperate media/diplomatic push for selling F16 to India. To an extent that we are fed up and fatigued.

This doesn't call for an India-centric approach when it's sold to India's primary adversary? Since this is unconfirmed, I'm afraid I just have to sit down and watch without further comments.


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> At first I was very impressed with this photo---Trump hand unerneath and IK's hand on to---Trump giving it all to IT---.
> 
> But now the salesman in me has woken up---. This photo looks more like Trump has IK by the Ballz---and that is the scary part---.
> 
> Trump is sitting at the edge of his seat---he has that certain expression of " CLOSING THE SALE" on his face---as if he has signed the deal---. But what deal----????


Who won’t feel excited to deal with the Muslims?!?! They feel it like “if you receive by two times you need to return by four times”!!!! As for the rest, it’s the reverse....

I have found IK relaxed!! As if everything’s proceeding per his game plan drawn over a long span of time and space....

_Gorelim Mevla neyler
Neylerse guzel eyler_

Let’s see what _Mevla_ has is store for us
Whatever it is HE renders it auspicious

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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> I dont like it when guys get vibes from me. Only members of the opposite gender are given that courtesy.
> 
> Kindly switch of your vibe detecting system. Thank You


hahahaha

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Sunny4pak said:


> @Khafee @Trailer23
> 
> It seems pre-planned from them that they banned/stopped everything in early 2018 & now trying to release just peanuts & thinking that Pak will be more than happy to get that.


IK, however, doesn’t fall for “peanuts”!!! He settles for the Oxford Blues, best sportsmanship, Royals, Goldsmiths, World cups, premiership, 02-27 etc....

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## Code_Geass

Sulemanms202 said:


> more purchaes mean more import means more rupee devaluation mean more debt mean less per capita income mean less GDP... you work the equation for the next 5 years..
> 
> current fx rate wont roll back without increase in exports or FDI


i don't think we are paying.


----------



## Code_Geass

why our dream list grows as soon as we get the hint we might actually get something, i will wait and see.


----------



## Basel

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



Will most older frames be replaced with new or used ones??


----------



## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> When it does, do post your pic on this forum.


we dont want mass suicides on the forum or mass exodus would we

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## ARMalik

I hope Pakistan gets all the weapons listed here in this thread. I sincerely hope so. But as there is a saying _*"When something is too good to be true, then it is probably not TRUE"*_. Only time will tell what the truth is.

Pakistan's alliance with China is the centerpiece of its survival in the Region and internationally. And I don't see any change in this by Pakistan just to make the US happy.

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## Basel

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks for Radar clarification. back few years Americans didnt even allow PAF personnel near the UAE block 60s. and now you are doing a surprise strike like 27 Feb 19.
> well played indeed
> 
> 
> I will leave the ban argument aside as there maybe difference of opinion because mods take a view which the other party has a right to disagree well its a happy ending because it was reversed and you got the chance to make PAF section interesting for few days as people will speculate, troll, argue , insult , rave, cry and get banned (fairly or unfairly)

















war&peace said:


> PAF has a number in mind for F16s, I think eighty.. plus we need a fill in the gap until we get our 5th:gen. JF17 block III is ready but still it is a light weight. F-16 is medium weight fighter. PAF not willing to go for heavy fighter yet.



If PAF saw opportunity to get F-16s then they may also replace some M-3/5 with those.


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

loanranger said:


> What happens if things in Afghanistan dont go to plan as so often is the case. Will we be getting Peace Gate F16s still then....India would do everything to not let this happen.....even let go of s400 and buy f21.


Not bad for Pak either....


----------



## araz

Philip the Arab said:


> China can still look at and copy certain tech in radar like T/R modules, hardware, etc.
> Do you think China had source codes for some of their unlicensed aircraft?


Can you give it a rest. Pakistan is a responsible state and the air force will safeguard its secrets and abide by the terms of its contracts. More importantly we are now taking off as an aviation industry ourselves. Why would we now want to share our secrets with anyone? This is an important milestone and you can refuse to believe it.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ARMalik said:


> Pakistan's alliance with China is the centerpiece of it survival in the Region and internationally. And I don't see any change in this by Pakistan just to make the US happy.


Looks like now the USA wants to keep Pak happy.....

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## araz

Philip the Arab said:


> Why do you think China bought the SU-35 lol? It was for radar tech for use in J-20 and J-31.


Again please update your knowledge. 35 fields a PESA while 20/31 field AESA. China does not need to go back. There is enough research on going in China for them to not look towards Russia. The reasons for 35 acquisition are different.
A


----------



## litman

27 feb proved that f-16 still is the most advance jet in the region and in the right hands it can take down any adversary. it also proved indian conspiracies like kill switches as false. pak can fully use the jets within its air space and that is we need right now and in near future. we are not equipping our F-16s with weapons like H2 , H4 and RAAD. that means F-16 will be used mainly in air to air role and in LIC. for strike we have JFTs and mirages which provide limited strike capability. no 4th gen jet from either side is capable of deep strike missions in today's environment so we dont need to induct 4th gen jets for this purpose. only 5th gen jets will be able to carry out strike missions efficiently.

it seems US is pressurizing india to drop S400 deal.

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## Tamiyah

litman said:


> 27 feb proved that f-16 still is the most advance jet in the region and in the right hands it can take down any adversary. it also proved indian conspiracies like kill switches as false. pak can fully use the jets within its air space and that is we need right now and in near future. we are not equipping our F-16s with weapons like H2 , H4 and RAAD. that means F-16 will be used mainly in air to air role and in LIC. for strike we have JFTs and mirages which provide limited strike capability. no 4th gen jet from either side is capable of deep strike missions in today's environment so we dont need to induct 4th gen jets for this purpose. only 5th gen jets will be able to carry out strike missions efficiently.
> 
> it seems US is pressurizing india to drop S400 deal.


India wont drop S400 deal.


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## Code_Geass

Tamiyah said:


> India wont drop S400 deal.


it really look bad for USA though that 2 countries went for S 400 that was suppose to be buying only US and its allies arms.


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## litman

Tamiyah said:


> India wont drop S400 deal.


we wont mind it . we are getting a potent platform to defend our air space and this is the need of the hour.


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## Mav3rick

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.



I also heard the strategic arm of the PLAAF deployed several Nuclear Armed Bombers and that they were ready to wipe out New Delhi in the event of a blink by Modi. These forces were supported by the military of Uganda and Congo which were ready to invade India at a moments notice. 

Thank the God that Modi did not blink!



Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



Salute to all those who are actually believing this, whatever dream this is.

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## Foxtrot Delta

China deploying h6k with nukes and j-20 with deep strike weapons. Pakistaniz getting block 70? Yikes... Rafale died before it could pose a threat... Ouch!

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## danger007

Mav3rick said:


> I also heard the strategic arm of the PLAAF deployed several Nuclear Armed Bombers and that they were ready to wipe out New Delhi in the event of a blink by Modi. These forces were supported by the military of Uganda and Congo which were ready to invade India at a moments notice.
> 
> Thank the God that Modi did not blink!
> 
> 
> 
> Salute to all those who are actually believing this, whatever dream this is.



Am just wondering about the feel good thread... i am careless about trump and ik meeting... whatever the outcome.. trump is someone who are capable to take U turn.... F 16 blk 70 is not going to happen... may be Ik meeting trump might give some positive relief but US pak relationship is fragile ...


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## The Terminator

Philip the Arab said:


> Aren't they upgradeable? American AESA is much better than KLJ-7A though and will probably be much better in A-A combat especially than the JF-17 block 3.
> 
> Why can Pakistan not produce its own radars? Taiwan after having help for earlier radars is producing two AESA radars fot its jets from seperate companies using its indigenous semi conductor production as an asset.



Nope it can't be. Same as Arabs can't even produce their own toilet seats from their indegenous sources. 
Well you should know about the history and industrial background of Taiwan. Their major export item is silicon semiconductor chips. They are amongst the major producers of semiconductor material and its a basic component of every electronic device being produced in the whole planet. And Pakistan unfortunately doesn't have that kind of commercial industrial base. We have to import the most simplest types ICs and transistors to repair a device let alone producing top of the line military electronics equipment. We still source our communications devices sets etc from abroad such as turkey and our military industry just gets ToT of assembling them. That's it.
To summarize this until we establish our own setup of mass production of semiconductors and microprocessors we may just dream of producing indegenous radars, AA missiles or Air defence systems.

Same is the case of engines, transmissions of all military vehicles upto the cruise missiles and Airplanes, they are all imported. Because all of our Automotive industry combined can't even design a small hatchback car and not in a position to manufacture their engines or transmissions from scratch. We just assemble. Place it and tighten the screws that's it.

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## araz

Philip the Arab said:


> Can't you just modify a 2000 lb dumb bomb and add a nuclear war
> 
> I know but Irbis-E is still useful tech regardless of it being a PESA. 400 km is better than the most AESAs today especially with Russias long history of radar tech.


Please read what happened to the MKIs on 27/02. Tells you the reason the world is going for AESA rather than PESA. The K3 of PAF has a PESA and we are looking to upgrade it to an AESA.
A

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## danger007

Foxtrot Delta said:


> China deploying h6k with nukes and j-20 with deep strike weapons. Pakistaniz getting block 70? Yikes... Rafale died before it could pose a threat... Ouch!


Hmmm really??? You believe in fantasy...



araz said:


> Please read what happened to the MKIs on 27/02. Tells you the reason the world is going for AESA rather than PESA. The K3 of PAF has a PESA and we are looking to upgrade it to an AESA.
> A




Am still waiting for Mki images??? Probably might not get..


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## Mav3rick

danger007 said:


> Am just wondering about the feel good thread... i am careless about trump and ik meeting... whatever the outcome.. trump is someone who are capable to take U turn.... F 16 blk 70 is not going to happen... may be Ik meeting trump might give some positive relief but US pak relationship is fragile ...



It is not just that, our economy has taken a severe beating under IK and will take many years to recover. Fact is, we simply will NOT be able to afford adding resources to our already overstretched Military budget; and there will not be any more freebies from the US.....that is unless they somehow transform the outstanding payments under CSF and channel them to the F-16 program and even then it will just not be enough.

Financially, we are so weak that we just cannot compete with India conventionally, and in the presence of a Nuclear umbrella, even the attempts should be discouraged. We need to focus on our economy and the welfare of the people.


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## Foxtrot Delta

danger007 said:


> Hmmm really??? You believe in fantasy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am still waiting for Mki images??? Probably might not get..


Mki fell in indian conrolled territory ask ur armed forces they are in better possition of providing them. We don't grt involved in stuff we cant prove. Unlike primitive brown indians.


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## The Terminator

and in advance I didn't intended to humiliate any of our Arab friends here. Just shared my opinion on the basis of my previous experience as a civilian supplier/contractor of Saudi Armed Forces. We supplied them the US made toilet seats, and HVAC systems along with German made taps and fixtures. The only Japanese product they approved was ball bearings. The Chinese products were mainly of US origin such as Cisco routers, switches, printers, computers etc. Everything else should be US made at first priority and if not available then the European manufactured products, forget about even the Japanese products except Toyota SUVs, Double cabins though

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## danger007

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Mki fell in indian conrolled territory ask ur armed forces they are in better possition of providing them. We don't grt involved in stuff we cant prove. Unlike primitive brown indians.




Oh yeah??? Indian parliament will address if any thing happens like that... armed forces will address... can't keep it secret...


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## Foxtrot Delta

danger007 said:


> Oh yeah??? Indian parliament will address if any thing happens like that... armed forces will address... can't keep it secret...


Indian parliment? Indian armed forces? Indian media lol luke hell they will. They are pure forms of evil on this earth! But thankfully primitive indian kind !

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## Arsalan 345

Philip the Arab said:


> So you can't take my opinion? Get a life bub and learn to live and let live. I have a right to express my views on here within reason.



What is your point? We as a country don't provide services to other countries to steal technology of other foreign jets.we know irbis e is powerful but big rcs of su-30 is more than enough to Target it without any hesitation.we are discussing f-16 here and not technology theft.


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## danger007

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Indian parliment? Indian armed forces? Indian media lol luke hell they will. They are pure forms of evil on this earth! But thankfully primitive indian kind !




When you don't know how it works then let it be..


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## Arsalan 345

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Some people think that I am a blind man shooting in a barrel---but they don't know how big the barrel is & how sensitive my sensors are---.
> 
> That proves my stand again---Paf chickened out on the 27th---. It should have smashed the enemy air power---as many air craft it had gotten a lock on and taken out the indian sub---and then had the missile ready for any strike---.
> 
> 8-10 enemy aircraft taken out---a scorpene boat sunk in pakistani water---and 50 nuc tipped missiles aimed at enemy centers---would have shaken the confidence of the enemy right to the core---a la carte Israel---.
> 
> Pakistani generals knew the backing they had from the chinese---and for how long I had been writing---get heavy strike aircraft---get type 054's---get some subs---because you cannot buy them on the day of the fight---you also cannot have them parked at the enemy airports and shipyards---you have to have them at your own airfields---.
> 
> As china is going for the J15 / 16's---Paf should have asked for totally re-furbished Jh7A's and only paid for the upgrades---. China knows the importance of the gwadar port and it knows what it will have to pay to keep its assets alive---.
> 
> Pakistan's military needs to change their stance at time of contact---it needs to learn to smash the enemy at its knees---. This talk of broken nose and broken jaws is old talk and is worthless---.
> 
> Pummel the enemy down---break its will to fight---smash it when you get the opportunity---. India was in no position to fight a war on the 27th---all its plans were smashed to smithereen when the strike happened---it is only the cowardice of some that showed on the pakistani side---otherwise the enemy was ready to be had that day---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mister---you are an enemy on this board---if it was for me---I would get you banned from the forum---.



Sir you are absolutely right.as far as I know,there were 8 to 10 targets but we targeted only 2 fighters.one su-30 on their side used high speed dive to save life.whether amraam hit or not,is still unknown.

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## HRK

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


two thinks come in my mind .....

پہنچی وہی پر خاک جہاں کی 'قبر' تھی
or
جتھے دی کھوتی اوتھے آن کھلوتی​

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## danger007

HRK said:


> two thinks come in my mind .....
> 
> پہنچی وہی پر خاک جہاں کی 'قبر' تھی
> or
> جتھے دی کھوتی اوتھے آن کھلوتی​




English please?


----------



## The Terminator

Starlord said:


> What you say about China sending 4 SSK's along with type 55's, What we do heard rumor of that PAF requested X number sqs of J10 and X numbers of SD-10 for the possible all out war . If that news is true than once USA actually heard about the Chinese response it would ring a lot of bells in Washington .
> 
> If you remember that on the night of 28th of Feb, after PAF strikes IA was super close to launch missile attacks on different targets across the country, and for some unknown reason the entire Karachi cantt was cut of from power, were they anticipating a missile attack there ?
> 
> The news is amazing and I trust you here bro, but what i think that if such a deal was raised during PM or Army Chief visit, than certainly Americans are trying to get some sort of Influence back on Pakistan, since Trump cut off last 300 mln $ CSF Pakistan was not even looking at Americans for anything . 27th Attacks on India was a example, i cant believe that Pakistan take such a bold step without taking Washington into confidence .
> 
> 
> 
> What you say about China sending 4 SSK's along with type 55's, What we do heard rumor of that PAF requested X number sqs of J10 and X numbers of SD-10 for the possible all out war . If that news is true than once USA actually heard about the Chinese response it would ring a lot of bells in Washington .
> 
> If you remember that on the night of 28th of Feb, after PAF strikes IA was super close to launch missile attacks on different targets across the country, and for some unknown reason the entire Karachi cantt was cut of from power, were they anticipating a missile attack there ?
> 
> The news is amazing and I trust you here bro, but what i think that if such a deal was raised during PM or Army Chief visit, than certainly Americans are trying to get some sort of Influence back on Pakistan, since Trump cut off last 300 mln $ CSF Pakistan was not even looking at Americans for anything . 27th Attacks on India was a example, i cant believe that Pakistan take such a bold step without taking Washington into confidence .


 Why do you believe it to be so? It's clearly against the declared policy stance of China that it would never intervene militarily as a third party in any foreign conflict and Pakistan/China haven't yet signed any contract of mutual defence or NATO type alliance. Same was the perception of Pakistani leadership in 1971 that US would send the fleet to terrorize the soviet backed India and China would pounce upon India to save us and see what hapenned!

Yes may be China may help us through continuous supply of weapons systems, their parts and spares etc. IMHO all China would do, they would help in training, supply of weapons, intelligence and reconnaissance, that's it. No boots on ground or a pilot in air.

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## Imran Khan

*say no to amrercan weapons *

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## SIPRA

The Terminator said:


> Yes may be China may help us through continuous supply of weapons systems, their parts and spares etc. IMHO all China would do, they would help in training, supply of weapons, intelligence and reconnaissance, that's it. No boots on ground or a pilot in air.



Correct and rational analysis.


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## Foxtrot Delta

danger007 said:


> English please?



jithay di khoti uthay hi an khaloti
Pohanchi wahien par khak jahan ki Qabar Thi. 

धूल कब्र की अपनी मंजिल तक पहुँचती है
मादा गधा अपने घर पहुंच गई।

as you say in primitive Indian language.

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## SIPRA

Imran Khan said:


> *say no to amrercan weapons *



*Tay fair ghulailaan tay daangaan naal larhiye?*

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## Foxtrot Delta

RIWWIR said:


> *Tay fair ghulailaan tay daangaan naal larhiye?*



Local weapons! turkish weapons! Chinese Weapons! even russian weapons are better janab!

zaroorat k waqt istemal tou kar saktay hain!

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## Khafee

HRK said:


> two thinks come in my mind .....
> 
> پہنچی وہی پر خاک جہاں کی 'قبر' تھی
> or
> جتھے دی کھوتی اوتھے آن کھلوتی​

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


>


now stupids will wait 3 years and us will stop supply .

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## Code_Geass

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Local weapons! turkish weapons! Chinese Weapons! even russian weapons are better janab!
> 
> zaroorat k waqt istemal tou kar saktay hain!


we used F-16 when needed to be used.

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## Basel

MastanKhan said:


> @Khafee
> 
> "The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities".
> 
> See---this is what I cannot comprehend---. As India took american permission to attack those trees in kashmir---pakistan must have involved china in its plan as well of strike on the 27th---.
> 
> And when there was so much chinese backing---why was there cowardice shown by the Paf generals by not doing maximum damage---why was the indian scorpene let go---?



Even Chinese never want to escalate the situation as both Pakistan and China want to complete CPEC and war can disrupt it.

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## Khafee

Anwar72 said:


> Perhaps Paf generals or Navy admirals weren't exactly cowards . And they best knew wild speculations and assumptions of Chinese assistance conjured up by @Khafee have no basis in the reality and they also didn't have liberty to act on such fanciful theories that could only end up as subjects of enticing discussion among enthusiastic fans of defense and security related matters .


It wasnt only the Chinese. There were two other countries, whose assets were at Pakistan's disposal.

#Only india is Isolated

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## El Sidd

Pakhtoon yum said:


> we're doomed.



na kar. kabse?

F16s are everywhere in Pakistan atop every monument on the roundabouts. From Kitchen to the cabinet all Pakistanis are well versed in F16 lingo. 

F16 also holds the honor of having idioms coined After it in Pakistan. 

We need some Radar tech I gather. Will Block 70 meet that merit?

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## Irfan Baloch

Khafee said:


> He is too lazy to read the first two lines, of the 1st post, on this thread. Hence me his leg.
> 
> 
> The are for keeps.


I would've done the same
Told him to go away or read frim start if he cares

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## HRK

danger007 said:


> English please?


these are Urdu and Punjabi proverbs will lose their essence it translated in English

1st Urdu proverb used in situation when someone or something reach to its end/destiny or final destination and in Roman Urdu it is like

- Poonchi(meaning: reached) wahi per khah (mean: soil) Jehan ki 'Qabar' thi

Second one is Punjabi proverb which simply mean back to square one and in Roman alphabets it is

- Jithay di khoti uthe aan khaloti

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## Keysersoze

You know I am wondering if the US is building up a few countries as a counter to a country in the mid east that is troublesome.......


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## Basel

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-16.html#auto-gcas


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## Irfan Baloch

Retired Troll said:


> na kar. kabse?
> 
> F16s are everywhere in Pakistan atop every monument on the roundabouts. From Kitchen to the cabinet all Pakistanis are well versed in F16 lingo.
> 
> F16 also holds the honor of having idioms coined After it in Pakistan.
> 
> We need some Radar tech I gather. Will Block 70 meet that merit?


It will far exceed what we got or realistically wish to have with chinese help

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## El Sidd

Irfan Baloch said:


> It will far exceed what we got or realistically wish to have with chinese help



Looks like a fair deal overall then. 

Chinese are realistically not that far away btw

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## Khafee

Imran Khan said:


> now stupids will wait 3 years and us will stop supply .


It's not the 90's anymore. Fundamental Dynamics have changed. 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-5#post-11648112

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> It's not the 90's anymore. Fundamental Dynamics have changed.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-5#post-11648112


yeah yeah sir i can see AH-1Z flying over multan

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## Khafee

Imran Khan said:


> yeah yeah sir i can see AH-1Z flying over multan


IA soon.

The Zulus, how many of them, and who will pay for the Vipers - all this info will cause a lot of heartburn, so best for me to enjoy the show for now.

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## araz

incognito1000 said:


> This makes sense, I would figure the US-Indian alliance will come to an end at some point. The US has sold India pretty sophisticated hardware and yet, India has not returned the favor. US extended India certain privileges in missile technology and even intel sharing, communication networks. *It has not confronted China and has not even come close to being the "hedge" that the US wanted it to be*. This idea was probably spoon-fed to US policy makers by the Indian lobby and scholars of Indian-origin working at thinktanks. It's similar to the illegal Indian job network here in the US - they promote their own Indian resumes to jobs and throw competent non-Indian resumes in the trash. It ended up wasting a decade of US time, money, and they foolishly gave up so much of their technology in exchange for nothing. *India has failed the US in confronting China*. The Indians literally think that they can extract maximum benefits from US due to their lobbying and do nothing in exchange.
> 
> Now the US is moving towards doing the confrontation *itself* with its own weapons. Hence, you see the push towards hypersonic missiles, laser weaponry, long range rockets and missiles for island warfare. India has no place in the calculus.


It was never possible for India and indeed for any other nation to put a hedge against China. The US policymakers deluded themselves if they thought India would do their dirty work for them. The problem remains access into India for US products which causes more ire to the US then the hedge against China. Even US now is notcin a position to stop China unless it wants to destroy half the world which would be against the very reason'de'etre for this whole fiasco. I think the US is simply going to start sorting out its own house and find business partners where it can start entering market and Pak lands provides a much better opportunity for that than India.
The US policy will shift. I think the reason it has not done so earlier is lack of Infrastructure in Pak lands and a team that explains the opportunities that Pakistan offers for US Business outlets to produce cheaper products. The first time we have done so coherently is the time we have seen success. Once investment flows Pakwards the US interests will take that into account while drafting policies. 
From the Pak perspective it is a strict balancing game to create a level playing field for all stake holders and watch the show go on. 
A

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## truthseeker2010

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



Thats a complement for 27th feb
I have heard pentagon was full of praise for PAF.
Not surprized as republicans has always favoured mil goods to pak than democrats.
And this also means that IAF has already rejected F21.
Just wait for 120d or c7 atleast that would be coming along!


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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> This is the perfect time to try to acquire the Gulf Mirages, along side more used F-16s that can be put through an F-16V upgrade program.
> 
> *We should renew the efforts from a few years ago to acquire the 89 Emirati and Qatari Mirage 2000s*; replacing our entire Mirage 3/5 Fleet with air frames that could serve another 20 years and help us diversify the fleet. What do you think the prospects of this acquisition? @Khafee
> 
> If i'm not mistaken General Bajwa personally spoke to the Emiratis to acquire the jets.
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/uae-pakistan-and-mirage-2000-9s.473162/
> 
> This should be seen as a plus by the West, especially European firms looking to sell equipment to modernize these jets such as Leonardo. Pakistan will forgo acquiring new J-10s @$60 million each; so that it can acquire Mirage 2000s @ brotherly prices and spend hundreds of millions on upgrades for some if not all with _modern AESA, EW Equipment, Datalinks, and Modern munitions such as the MICA and possibly the *Meteor*_.
> 
> *PAF pilots probably have decades of experience flying these jets for the Emiratis and Qataris, so the learning curve will be short if not non-existent.* Acquiring their entire support infrastructure, spares, munitions, etc. can be done lock stock and barrel, now that the Emiratis and Qataris are acquiring Typhoons, Rafales, and Advanced American planes to replace them.
> ==============
> 
> 18-24 Block 72 F-16s and 50-60 more used F-16s will allow the PAF to add to their current 76 F-16s and field *9 full strength F-16 squadrons*.
> 
> 89 Mirage 2000s will allow the PAF to field *5 full strength Mirage 2000 squadrons* and the 188 JF-17s can form *11-12 JF-17 squadrons* to round out the entire force at 25-26 squadrons. A Full modernization of the PAF; all in a few years time, and in the most economical way. @MastanKhan
> 
> *The WEST should back this as it can be seen as diversifying suppliers and international partners. The CHINESE should back this, because it is the most economical, and allows Pakistan to focus on the economy; so that it can attract western FDI, and full realize the CPEC goal. FRANCE and the Europeans shoudl back this because they have already secured the rafale deal, and can secure hundreds of millions if not a billion dollars worth of upgrades in the next few years. *


That chicken has flown the coup. Pak may have to look at China to fill that deficit in 2022.
A


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## Irfan Baloch

war&peace said:


> But A5 were retired quite sometime ago...


but that guy who asked the original question not retired yet and can go to the first page and read though the threat instead of asking others to give him a summary.
yes A5's are retired but it was a polite hint that mate go read up yourself if you really care



Khafee said:


> I dont like it when guys get vibes from me. Only members of the opposite gender are given that courtesy.
> 
> Kindly switch of your vibe detecting system. Thank You


message lost in translation , English is not first language 
I dont want to speak for his mind , my understanding is that he thinks you have family links of Pakistan and Arab.

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> IA soon.
> 
> The Zulus, how many of them, and who will pay for the Vipers - all this info will cause a lot of heartburn, so best for me to enjoy the show for now.


bro we know you since 2015 but we also know USA since 4 july 1776 nothing is comming unless its useless for usa

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## war&peace

truthseeker2010 said:


> Thats a complement for 27th feb
> I have heard pentagon was full of praise for PAF.
> Not surprized as republicans has always favoured mil goods to pak than democrats.
> And this also means that IAF has already rejected F21.
> Just wait for 120d or c7 atleast that would be coming along!


Republicans are macho men, they love & respect tough & manly people. Which they knew about Pakistan very well.

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## araz

Cookie Monster said:


> Speaking of the crown prince... remember how Trump couldn't contain his excitement when MBS signed billions of dollars worth of deals? While he easily shrugged away long time NATO allies just bcuz they weren't pulling their own weight. Hence my question...Trump wouldn't mind at all and would welcome Pak if Pak was purchasing the block 70(new + upgrade). If however US is going to subsidize it in some manner(CSF or something else) then he wouldn't be too thrilled about it(as evident by his past actions). This is why I was curious as to how he would approve such a thing since he mostly likes to deal in cold hard cash and is very much against what he considers to be "handouts". He is not the type to give up monetary value for a strategic gain in the future. Since Pak isn't in the position to pay for all of this...chances are US is going to subsidize it if this happens. So my question is Uncle Trump ko kaise jaib mein le liya?


It is the choice between releasing money or using that money to SUBSIDIZE Sales to Paklands and gain employment locally. The US has always been a fan of PAF boys and their acts against a superior force. Both 65, 71 and 27/02. However 27/02 was different. It was a very well laid out plan and the enemy just walked into the trap. I still say we have caused more harm than what we have claimed and the news of the superior force exiting with their tails between their legs has not gone unnoticed. There is free advertising both for the US and Chinese weaponryso both parties are understandably very happy.
A

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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> The blame of this relationship is not only of the US---the major part falls on pakistan---. *It is pakistan who did not know how to deal with the US-*--it is pakistan who did not know the military power of the US---.


this is the main reason and our continued limitation.
if and when we nail this capability, both countries will benefit 


MastanKhan said:


> Why did Kiyani---Pasha & Qamar Suleiman keep quiet about the issue---? If they had only uttered a public statement that pak military was associated in helping take out OBL---pakistan's image would not have been decimated all over the world--



and now we have former PMLN speaker Ayaz Sadiq asking for Article 6 on Imran that he "confessed" (alleged) to Fox news that it was ISI assistance to CIA that helped in OBL raid (i.e giving information about the suspicious courier as a person of interest in Pakistan) that CIA was already tracking and used this information to confirm his link with OBL. either he was being smart *** (sugesting ISI never helped CIA and Imran cant take credit for Pakistan, OR as if ISI did something wrong thats Noonie logic for you).

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## Khafee

Imran Khan said:


> bro we know you since 2015 but we also know USA since 4 july 1776 nothing is comming unless its useless for usa


I love your optimism.

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## Irfan Baloch

Philip the Arab said:


> If Pakistan is given bait like J-31 or J-20 as bait they would probably let them take a look at radar like in 2011 with Bin Laden and the stealth blackhawk.


I know what you are doing and thats very cute
but rest assured this "worry" of yours (for obvious reasons to stop this sale from happening) is unfounded

we already passed this test when we got the Block 52. forget sharing their components we dont even fly them with Chinese combat exercises

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## Khafee

araz said:


> It is the choice between releasing money or using that money to SUBSIDIZE Sales to Paklands and gain employment locally. The US has always been a fan of PAF boys and their acts against a superior force. Both 65, 71 and 27/02. However 27/02 was different. It was a very well laid out plan and the enemy just walked into the trap. I still say we have caused more harm than what we have claimed and the news of the superior force exiting with their tails between their legs has not gone unnoticed. There is free advertising both for the US and Chinese weaponryso both parties are understandably very happy.
> A


Sir, you will have to admit, it was more than two than went down, in a blaze of not so glory.

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## Irfan Baloch

Khafee said:


> Feel free to have this thread deleted.


naa I will rather him bring a counter narrative better than that picture.

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## Irfan Baloch

loanranger said:


> I believe china was allowed access to f 16s to make them capable of carrying nukes.


it is an allegation about the 80s era F-16s that they were usd to make JF-17. 
we didnt get any chinese help to make them nuke capable. 
our nuclear deterrent is missile based please dont piss on the party and play in the hand of the crybabies and trolls

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## alee92nawaz

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Allah kre sach ho

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## Irfan Baloch

pakistanipower said:


> J-31 is a export oriented fighter jet, and J-20 is not exportable just like F-22 @Philip the Arab


he is trolling
the thing is that we are already offered the J31 so there is nothing we need to do underhand and against the contract to get something from China

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## Khafee

Anwar72 said:


> Does it include the one who gave Modi her highest civilian honor in April 2019 ??
> I mean give it a break , India can play muslim ummah card as good as Pakistan when there are 30 crores of us live in India .



@Irfan Baloch You have a colorful way of dealing with these Saffron idiots......

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## SIPRA

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @TheTallGuy , my dear YoungPak, is out on hunting trip! We wish him the very best!!!!



Sir Jee: Please don't tag @TheTallGuy. He may come up with another 8 down, making a total tally of 16.

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## aliyusuf

Anwar72 said:


> India can play muslim ummah card as good as Pakistan when there are 30 crores of us live in India .



According CIA FactBook

India's Population is --> 1,296,834,042 (July 2018 est.)
Percentage of Muslims in total population --> 14.2%
Total estimated Muslims --> ‭18,415,043,396

It is not 30 crores i.e. it is not 300,000,000 (300 million).

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## Khafee

Anwar72 said:


> FYI , i work for a political party that's the lone opposition to BJP in the state of Bihar . U can google RJD to know what it stands for .



After your "30Cr Muslims in India comment", your credibility is absolutely zero. 
Now go away and read about why KSA& UAE gave Pak US$9bn+/-

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## aliyusuf

Anwar72 said:


> That's census data of 2011 , this is year 2019 .
> Also census data isn't very accurate when it comes Muslim numbers as govt tends to hide our actual population figures .


You are entitled to your opinion.
But I don't agree.
So kindly stop interfering in this forum and thread. 
This is a Pakistani forum on a thread related to PAF related issues.
So please mind your own political affairs of RJD or whatever.
BTW Isn't Lalu ji in Jail?

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## Keysersoze

Khafee said:


> After your "30Cr Muslims in India comment", your credibility is absolutely zero.
> Now go away and read about why KSA& UAE gave Pak US$9bn+/-


I think a map of the mid east answers that question...


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## araz

Cookie Monster said:


> TBH US is fully capable of safely exiting Afghanistan all on its own. It's the aftermath they want to have some control over...whether directly or indirectly. Exerting that control directly isn't an option bcuz that's what they tried to do ever since they invaded...the Afghan government they installed is a failure...the Afghan forces they tried to build up to make sure that Afghan government remains in power is a failure. Prolonging that effort would only bleed more of US money and effort with no end in sight...forever locked in this stalemate. They can pack up and leave today if they want to...but that only means all this effort and money they spent goes to waste. They can't claim a victory...and worse Afghanistan can go back to what it was(the very thing for which WoT was started)...a breeding ground for anti US armed groups. With Pak onboard, US can after it's exit try to install a Pak and US friendly government...and that I think is the payment...not just a safe exit.


The issue is this time the fence will protect Paklands both from the marauding entrents and also from US Blame which is why it is so important Paklands be passified and kept on USside till US crystallizes its plans for the region. There are other reasons for keeping Paklands sweet as its geolocation does not allow the US to ignore it for long to its own detriment. Pak lands has an opportunity wnd it must avail it. It is a very delicate balance which must be maintained and I suspect there will be continued close contact between the US and Paklands.



Khafee said:


> Sir, you will have to admit, it was more than two than went down, in a blaze of not so glory.


Absolutely. In fact I have stated so. I am not quite in the 8 plane theory fan club but I have maintained that at least one other 21 went down and was reported in Indian press. It remains my own assessment so people have looked at it and moved on.
A

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## zulu

@Mangus Ortus Novem Sir confidence of TALLGUY even puzzled me many times btw his 120 days dateline is around 
@Khafee Thanx for sharing such good news and ignore that indian idiot.F 16 should be least of his worries with such name he gonna end soon by cow vigilantes in his beloved india

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> The Question is: "Why is the US reaching out to the Pakistan?"
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) *China* - Pakistan has slid so far into the Chinese camp, that is now a de facto province. Something which is extremely worrying for the Americans.
> 
> The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities.
> 
> 2) *India *- I told someone from the west, a year ago, "building India up against China, is like making the village idiot your sheriff"
> 
> He laughed it off, but he quietly made a note, scribbled away, while looking at me straight in the eye.
> 
> India's incompetence hasn't gone unnoticed, neither has them becoming an economic threat to the US. To contain them, and move Pak away from the Chinese camp, to whatever extent possible. These are the two goals.
> 
> The US has a list of some 10~20 companies that are critical to National Security, LM, Boeing Raytheon, Cisco etc. Sensitive data has been steadily flowing to India, China, Russia, Israel, courtesy of Indians. The deep state has realized its folly, AND no president will work against the deep state.
> 
> The trade balance being lopsided, doesn't help them either.
> 
> As far as people giving all the credit to Afgh for this revert, If any of you remember the Muree talks, it was decided THEN, that should the US exit, Pak will insure that its interests are looked after adequately.
> 
> Imran Khan, wants to make a change, a fundamental change in Pak, but decades old rot, bogs him down. He also has the support of the Army. All these things combined, has assured the US that Pakistan can be a useful ally after all.
> 
> Last but not the least, Pakistan's oil reserves slightly more than the UK's at 21bn BBL (min) doesn't hurt either. By comparison Oman's Reserves are at 5.3bn BBL (approx).
> 
> Once all options are exploited, Pakistan will be exporting 1.2m bpd ~ 1.4m bpd. (this figure is after deducting domestic consumption).
> 
> InShaAllah great times ahead
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad



I am not going to guess a lot and act like some future teller but mostly did not notice that Afghanistan peace & 27th Feb, actually made most & top of the first world minds to rethink and review their approach in this regard. 

There are couple of subjects that adds a lot of worth to Pakistan importance in current times.


US now wants a confirm exit for the peace of Afghanistan and then Trump needs a legacy to run for next presidency and this Afghanistan thing will turn out to be the most pondering point.
We decided that long ago to help Afghanistan peace on the basis of many things including our need, geographical shifts, strategical requirements, progressive diplomacy, strong economy & having more friends.

Mostly didn't know that post 27th Feb, the patrolling in Arabian Sea was a like a bamboo shocker and IN did go in remote mode immediately. Whatever were the assets, available on disposal of Pakistan, are all part & parcel of CPEC and our brotherly ties with nations. 

IK invitation was based upon the dream of US legacy and that became possible for them as well as Pakistan due to some brothers having contacts over there. Did anyone try to have a guess as why previous administrations failed to pursue peace in Afghanistan and avoided the diplomatic solution at all? Think of it like who benefits more from Afghanistan war/unrest? 

Taliban are going to have a meeting with IK on official lines and on that day, it will make a difference as how not to let someone sabotage the peace process. As discussed previously that there are parties looking for opportunity to sabotage & make sure of attacks but Taliban did not give their words to Pompeo and that was for the reasons having history among both parties especially when US been hunting their leadership after an invitation for talks and then drone attack while they are on the way. But no more.

Oil story was deliberately down played as we had a supposedly growing fire in neighborhood where Iran was going into conflict and US was preparing for another adventure. We will keep that sealed for the time when it comes to look into this and invite one of the honest friends to dig for us.

Pakistan & Russia are strengthening our ties and that became possible with the help of yet another friends as well as Pakistan's importance for the peace of Afghanistan and the region. Us tried to have a watchman in region like India as Nikki Haley suggested long ago. US went to treat India like a Major Non-NATO ally. Both signed LEMOA and what not but then again, India will remain India and no matter how much is being armed, Delhi's wicked policies are paying back the favours. 

Remember Russia FM visiting Pakistan on 27th Feb Evening, DG ISPR discloses few of the wish list to be bought from Russia, IK & Putin having a good time to talk about few untold things & India on other hand feeling the brunt and somehow slipped which was noticed by US as well. S-400 deal will prove a lot too. Trump has realized that can't raise and strengthen India to get rid of China rather will look after for their own interests, support both Pakistan & India, stay out of direct confrontation or losing further allies and let India to deal with it. 

Also, it is not a surprise for many that our Habibi Brothers and we do support each other. Well, the political stands and business conflicts will remains so and to tell that, there have been deliberate misconduct by previous administrations to provoke our Islamic brothers but things are getting better. Haven't you all noticed that IK did visit Gulf & China in start and did it with much active policy as well as on serious notes. Think about IK & Military Leadership visiting Gulf Brothers & China together or one after another. There a lot happened that one can imagine. 

Can't say much about Block-70 at the moment but if someone is thinking about the possibility in this regards then has to look at influencing forces from Gulf working behind the scenes having heart to heart relations with Pakistan & good repute for investment with other side. 

There is a need of strategic balance in-case where Rafale making it to IAF and on 27th Feb, US realized that has to keep it balanced otherwise, the friends indeed are going to reach without any delay at the time of need. 

The trade war, Iran N deal, Mexico & provoking EU did not work well but a man does need a legacy for the next round of elections and call it a huge success. 

Someone been nail biting since the close & well coordinated chemistry of Political & Military Leadership in Pakistan. This was the most vulnerable area that we were hit so badly & political thugs been reaping their benefits and served the foreign masters in this area a lot. Now as we have a leadership who is more serious about the Nation than his foreign assets/money; the Military feels stronger than before and so having good relations, delivered way beyond the expectations of our enemies. These options & gains were already on the table but as I said before, corrupt lot never wanted to become a reality as their handlers didn't like it.

Imran Khan recently revealed that he will meet Taliban Leadership. That is for the first time as he is telling such news while previously, when Taliban wanted to meet, IK excused himself due to the rants by Ghani but then, his masters told him to stay where he used to be. PM IK now confirms after his visit to D.C and the same did not come so sudden.
We have a lot to do and there are lot of things to get done but the at least we started well, on the right way and with right strategy. Hoping for the best and indeed, there are great times ahead. This is all not that easy nor our enemies will let this happen though, we have come a long way and have done a lot so will do better In'Sha'ALLLAH.

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## Khafee

Keysersoze said:


> I think a map of the mid east answers that question...


I know what you are implying, but the answer is "NO".

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## SIPRA

zulu said:


> Sir confidence of TALLGUY even puzzled me many times btw his *120 days dateline* is around



Hazrat @zulu: What is this 120 days dateline?



zulu said:


> .... ignore that indian idiot.F 16 should be least of his worries with such name he gonna end soon by cow vigilantes in his beloved india



Hazrat @zulu and @Mangus Ortus Novem: My request is that we should not be harsh with Indian Muslims and, in all circumstances, shall maintain certain compassion for them, owing to both, the historical perspective, as well as their current plight.

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## zulu

Amazing analysis.combine it with @Khafee post 59 will draw big picture 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-4#post-11648112


The Eagle said:


> I am not going to guess a lot and act like some future teller but mostly did not notice that Afghanistan peace & 27th Feb, actually made most & top of the first world minds to rethink and review their approach in this regard.
> 
> There are couple of subjects that adds a lot of worth to Pakistan importance in current times.
> 
> 
> US now wants a confirm exit for the peace of Afghanistan and then Trump needs a legacy to run for next presidency and this Afghanistan thing will turn out to be the most pondering point.
> We decided that long ago to help Afghanistan peace on the basis of many things including our need, geographical shifts, strategical requirements, progressive diplomacy, strong economy & having more friends.
> 
> Mostly didn't know that post 27th Feb, the patrolling in Arabian Sea was a like a bamboo shocker and IN did go in remote mode immediately. Whatever were the assets, available on disposal of Pakistan, are all part & parcel of CPEC and our brotherly ties with nations.
> 
> IK invitation was based upon the dream of US legacy and that became possible for them as well as Pakistan due to some brothers having contacts over there. Did anyone try to have a guess as why previous administrations failed to pursue peace in Afghanistan and avoided the diplomatic solution at all? Think of it like who benefits more from Afghanistan war/unrest?
> 
> Taliban are going to have a meeting with IK on official lines and on that day, it will make a difference as how not to let someone sabotage the peace process. As discussed previously that there are parties looking for opportunity to sabotage & make sure of attacks but Taliban did not give their words to Pompeo and that was for the reasons having history among both parties especially when US been hunting their leadership after an invitation for talks and then drone attack while they are on the way. But no more.
> 
> Oil story was deliberately down played as we had a supposedly growing fire in neighborhood where Iran was going into conflict and US was preparing for another adventure. We will keep that sealed for the time when it comes to look into this and invite one of the honest friends to dig for us.
> 
> Pakistan & Russia are strengthening our ties and that became possible with the help of yet another friends as well as Pakistan's importance for the peace of Afghanistan and the region. Us tried to have a watchman in region like India as Nikki Haley suggested long ago. US went to treat India like a Major Non-NATO ally. Both signed LEMOA and what not but then again, India will remain India and no matter how much is being armed, Delhi's wicked policies are paying back the favours.
> 
> Remember Russia FM visiting Pakistan on 27th Feb Evening, DG ISPR discloses few of the wish list to be bought from Russia, IK & Putin having a good time to talk about few untold things & India on other hand feeling the brunt and somehow slipped which was noticed by US as well. S-400 deal will prove a lot too. Trump has realized that can't raise and strengthen India to get rid of China rather will look after for their own interests, support both Pakistan & India, stay out of direct confrontation or losing further allies and let India to deal with it.
> 
> Also, it is not a surprise for many that our Habibi Brothers and we do support each other. Well, the political stands and business conflicts will remains so and to tell that, there have been deliberate misconduct by previous administrations to provoke our Islamic brothers but things are getting better. Haven't you all noticed that IK did visit Gulf & China in start and did it with much active policy as well as on serious notes. Think about IK & Military Leadership visiting Gulf Brothers & China together or one after another. There a lot happened that one can imagine.
> 
> Can't say much about Block-70 at the moment but if someone is thinking about the possibility in this regards then has to look at influencing forces from Gulf working behind the scenes having heart to heart relations with Pakistan & good repute for investment with other side.
> 
> There is a need of strategic balance in-case where Rafale making it to IAF and on 27th Feb, US realized that has to keep it balanced otherwise, the friends indeed are going to reach without any delay at the time of need.
> 
> The trade war, Iran N deal, Mexico & provoking EU did not work well but a man does need a legacy for the next round of elections and call it a huge success.
> 
> Someone been nail biting since the close & well coordinated chemistry of Political & Military Leadership in Pakistan. This was the most vulnerable area that we were hit so badly & political thugs been reaping their benefits and served the foreign masters in this area a lot. Now as we have a leadership who is more serious about the Nation than his foreign assets/money; the Military feels stronger than before and so having good relations, delivered way beyond the expectations of our enemies. These options & gains were already on the table but as I said before, corrupt lot never wanted to become a reality as their handlers didn't like it.
> 
> Imran Khan recently revealed that he will meet Taliban Leadership. That is for the first time as he is telling such news while previously, when Taliban wanted to meet, IK excused himself due to the rants by Ghani but then, his masters told him to stay where he used to be. PM IK now confirms after his visit to D.C and the same did not come so sudden.
> We have a lot to do and there are lot of things to get done but the at least we started well, on the right way and with right strategy. Hoping for the best and indeed, there are great times ahead. This is all not that easy nor our enemies will let this happen though, we have come a long way and have done a lot so will do better In'Sha'ALLLAH.

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## Dubious

Oscar said:


> Experience and no confirmation otherwise





Oscar said:


> I would wait until the Chicks actually hatch. Right now the chicken hasnt laid the eggs, we’ve just been told it will.


The the hatchery released the chicks:

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pak...ts-after-imrankhan-trump-meet-1.1564200291908

https://www.dawn.com/news/1496522/u...ed-125m-support-programme-for-pakistans-f-16s

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## HRK

The SC said:


> Maybe Pakistan will be paying for the new Vs and most upgrades will long time loans from KSA and the UAE


CSF the expenditures Pakistan does from its own budget in advanced in support of US WOT is not paid by USA from many years and it is estimated that around 9+ billion $ are still unpaid by US, so even if US only release this amount which is our own money will be sufficient to cover these expenses

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## zulu

How could i sir ?my family also migrated from india but such pretender and lover of ""mera bharat mahan "" type irritate me even if he is real muslim 


RIWWIR said:


> Hazrat @zulu: What is this 120 days dateline?
> 
> 
> 
> Hazrat @zulu and @Mangus Ortus Novem: My request is that we should not be harsh with Indian Muslims and, in all circumstances, shall maintain certain compassion for them, owing to both, the historical perspective, as well as their current plight.

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## HRK

Imran Khan said:


> now i will asked for ban you its very bad news


hahahahahaha .....

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## Cookie Monster

araz said:


> It is the choice between releasing money or using that money to SUBSIDIZE Sales to Paklands and gain employment locally. The US has always been a fan of PAF boys and their acts against a superior force. Both 65, 71 and 27/02. However 27/02 was different. It was a very well laid out plan and the enemy just walked into the trap. I still say we have caused more harm than what we have claimed and the news of the superior force exiting with their tails between their legs has not gone unnoticed. There is free advertising both for the US and Chinese weaponryso both parties are understandably very happy.
> A


Right...I'm not saying that US can't subsidize...of course it can and it has in the past. I'm saying that Trump specifically isn't a fan of that. He sees it as other nations "taking advantage" of the US...he has been vocal about it on more than one occasion. This is why I was asking how is he on board...bcuz he likes to deal in cold hard cash rather than a strategic gain.

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## Khafee

Anwar72 said:


> What is the big deal with F-16s ?? Why should india bother with 18 more of them ?
> 
> US has been trying to sell then to india for 12 years , it has been lobbying , cajoling ,making enticing offer like shifting the entire manufacturing unit to india , made whole new version called F-21 specifically for india , has partnered with India's TATA to make them india .
> 
> Still India didn't buy *f-16 and went for Rafales which costs three times more . It wont buy them in future too as India is looking to Buy F-35 *.



@The Eagle @Arsalan @Irfan Baloch There should be a ban on serious threads, for clueless idiots like these.



mingle said:


> Mehnat ker hasad na ker


Its by default, he cant help it - national psyche.

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## SIPRA

zulu said:


> How could i sir ?my family also migrated from india but such pretender and lover of ""mera bharat mahan "" type irritate me even if he is real muslim



Still, in the name of Islam, and in view, that we are free and they are not, it is my request.
I am a Punjabi, but somehow I feel like that.
Refer also Post # 444.

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## araz

Irfan Baloch said:


> I would've done the same
> Told him to go away or read frim start if he cares


If I can do it so can he. While I was reading it 2 pages were added so in this game you either read or not read. Either case you get found out pretty soon.
A

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## SIPRA

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> I agree. There was one post where I took offence when muslims in gangadesh uttering antiPak words... you corrected my post, registering your hurt and pointing me in the right direction... I deleted that post...and since then I have never taken offence from muslims from gangadesh... as they are not free.



Great. I know that. I tagged you, just, because of Hazrat @zulu.

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## araz

Keysersoze said:


> You know I am wondering if the US is building up a few countries as a counter to a country in the mid east that is troublesome.......


Dont you think Pak will not entertain the thoughts of using its assetts and lands against a neighbouring country except one?
A

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## Khafee

The Accountant said:


> @Khafee is an insider source himself.


JazakAllah khair.

The more I thank my Lord the less it is. He is indeed The Most Benevolent and The Most Merciful, warna yeah nacheez to kuch bhi nahi.

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## Zarmeena Rashad

Anwar72 said:


> What is the big deal with F-16s ?? Why should india bother with 18 more of them ?
> 
> US has been trying to sell then to india for 12 years , it has been lobbying , cajoling ,making enticing offer like shifting the entire manufacturing unit to india , made whole new version called F-21 specifically for india , has partnered with India's TATA to make them india .
> 
> Still India didn't buy f-16 and went for Rafales which costs three times more . It wont buy them in future too as India is looking to Buy F-35 .


 
India should be more concerned with teaching it's pilot how to fly the damn birds it already has instead .What will it do with F-35 anyway.I reckon after feb 27 , everyone is regretting investing so much in india in the first place.

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## loanranger

Why isnt the world f 16 block 70 sale or upgrade written anywhere officially......

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## Khafee

Cookie Monster said:


> Right...I'm not saying that US can't subsidize...of course it can and it has in the past. I'm saying that Trump specifically isn't a fan of that. He sees it as other nations "taking advantage" of the US...he has been vocal about it on more than one occasion. This is why I was asking how is he on board...bcuz he likes to deal in cold hard cash rather than a strategic gain.


Brother, Trump is not the only decision maker. Please read this in case you haven't already, to get a better picture.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-4#post-11648112

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## Khafee

loanranger said:


> Why isnt the world f 16 block 70 sale or upgrade written anywhere officially......

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## zulu

@Khafee Akhi one question hope u dont mind why are you giving us this info, before any official announcements?

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## Khafee

zulu said:


> @Khafee Akhi one question hope u dont mind why are you giving us this info, before any official announcements?


How can one celebrate Eid, when his family is rightly worried about the current issues. Things are moving in the right direction, so just a little heads up. IA there is more to come. 

in the mean time, I need the prayers of my brothers and sisters desperately. No chance, but my heart desperately wants to:

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## Humble Analyst

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


So does that mean that India is not buying any of US fighters including F18,F21 because unless they say no it will be hard for US to sell to India’s opposition.
Or India will get F35 then Pak gets Blk 70s


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## volatile

Biggest joke and with out authentic source Fan boys have wasted 40 plus pages Oh my what a childish posts .Rest only possibiliites will be if we have AESA equipped JF17 might be slight chances that US will offer the same


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## SIPRA

Khafee said:


> in the mean time, I need the prayers of my brothers and sisters desperately. No chance, but my heart desperately wants to:



All my prayers for you. May Allah keep you happy and content.

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## The Eagle

zulu said:


> Amazing analysis.combine it with @Khafee post 59 will draw big picture
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-4#post-11648112



We have a platform, a well capable, excellent, aggressive & agile one with all that can fulfill our needs....... waiting for the confirmation and that will be yet another surprise. I am saying this all only for the people that can't hold being impatience, have no clue but still complains like they have done a lot which in reality is nothing more than demanding for basic rights while sitting in air-conditioned bedrooms. 

State & Military leadership is well coordinating, aligned & are on the same page of Sovereignty of Pakistan. No one is off the guard or sleeping but not everything can be made public. There are many things into play at the moment aside from F-16 Block-70 upgrade/induction possibility.

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## Blueskiez 2001

f-16 block-70 welcome as a stop gap - but nothing more

Don´t trust the Americans...

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## Longhorn

Humble Analyst said:


> So does that mean that India is not buying any of US fighters including F18,F21 because unless they say no it will be hard for US to sell to India’s opposition.
> Or India will get F35 then Pak gets Blk 70s


I'm no analyst but the US has laid down a marker by cancelling Turkey's F35 contract precisely because they have acquired the S400, so we can extrapolate from that the Indians aren't going to be getting F35's any time soon.

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## war&peace

Irfan Baloch said:


> I know what you are doing and thats very cute
> but rest assured this "worry" of yours (for obvious reasons to stop this sale from happening) is unfounded
> 
> we already passed this test when we got the Block 52. forget sharing their components we dont even fly them with Chinese combat exercises


Well, why don't you show this cute false flag rat the door?

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## Longhorn

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> My very dear YoungPak,
> 
> If you recall *#DGISPR* said/tweeted in D.C... about stay tuned... *#SurpriseDay2.0*
> 
> If someone can reproduce that tweet here. I strongly believe that we have reached *Framework Agreement i.e. D.C. Accord.*
> 
> I for one would love to see Project AZM flying in many colours especially in GCC!
> 
> Anyhow, time to become focused and let Realism guide us further. *#PakNationalInterests First!*
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mangus


*Framework Agreement i.e. D.C. Accord*

Any chance you could explain to me what this is?
Thanks in advance.


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## Khafee

volatile said:


> Biggest joke and with out authentic source Fan boys have wasted 40 plus pages Oh my what a childish posts .Rest only possibiliites will be if we have AESA equipped JF17 might be slight chances that US will offer the same


Official confirmation 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155001325266055168

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## war&peace

Khafee said:


> Official confirmation
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155001325266055168


lolzzzz

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## Longhorn

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> It means the Framework according to which US-Pak relationship will be conducted for the next 10-15 years... for now Patience..let time reveal mysteries!


Insha Allah hum umeed mein hain.


----------



## The Eagle

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> My very dear YoungPak,
> 
> If you recall *#DGISPR* said/tweeted in D.C... about stay tuned... *#SurpriseDay2.0*
> 
> If someone can reproduce that tweet here. I strongly believe that we have reached *Framework Agreement i.e. D.C. Accord.*
> 
> I for one would love to see Project AZM flying in many colours especially in GCC!
> 
> Anyhow, time to become focused and let Realism guide us further. *#PakNationalInterests First!*
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mangus



And for those who think it may ever affect our relations with China then the answer is a big NO. We had our coordination in past and it never hurt our relations except that as US walked away in love of India due to their media propaganda & playing big all the time while running malicious campaigns against Pakistan which forced us to look for further suppliers and now US has realized the same as well.

There is no harm to refresh good old times with newer arrangements on the basis of mutual interests and benefits. This time, it is different and Pakistan successfully reached to the friendship level on equality basis.

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## Keysersoze

araz said:


> Dont you think Pak will not entertain the thoughts of using its assetts and lands against a neighbouring country except one?
> A


Doesn't need to use the assets directly. More indirectly pen the aforementioned country in.

Does everyone think any money given will not have strings? Will defence pacts with UAE and Saudi stand if they get attacked by a country they are in dispute with?

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## The Eagle

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> You know what I find delightful is that *#PakRealism* is emerging in all facets of our National and State Life. This is right course... we need to move forward on all fronts with this Realism.
> *
> #EmergingPakistan is Jinnah's Pakistan.*



We are dealing with variety of threats but not in similar fashion to counter. By the time and our sacrifices; Pakistan learnt a lot and came up with strategy as per threat assessment. Even, this kind of possible deal announcement can make India go crazy and commit something to buy more than Pakistan from LM and see, there is a win win. If a commoner can think like this, how could someone in higher office will never discuss every possible outcome. May be, if LM secured India's sale pitch; we might get our fair share in lieu of some other arrangements. 



Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *P.S. *Got any intel on that Tweetni jalsa in Quetta? Rented Afghans? Or some locals grunts? I didn't like one bit what was said there. But for some mysterous reasons PakState is still drinking sattoo... and Blackmailer roam freely!



Told them always that keep State Institute out of their political fist fight and from the attempt to cover their own corruption & incompetence. It may take sometime but things are being done as per strategy of greater results. PTM has been roaming free as well and you know the end results. As we are dealing with multiple threats at once having not so strong economy & there we have moles within the country, hence, it needs patience as well as an all time strategy to deal. Any rushing step can cause us harm and that is exactly these hostile forces want us to commit. 




Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Anyhow, if you could open a thread in PakArmy section ... 10 of our boys accepted Shahadat today... Gangaz are behind this with filthy NDS.



Checking onto certain things, haven't noticed the absence of news but let me check.

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## bafxet

This is merely an assurance, they walk away after done deals. Therefore when it comes to Uncle Sam than 'Seeing is believing'.


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## PAKISTANFOREVER

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!







Think we need more focus on the J-20s/J-31s or our own 5th generation fighter programs. That's where our future ultimately lies.



Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!







Not saying the above isn't true but is there any official source to back up the above claims?

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## Humble Analyst

Longhorn said:


> I'm no analyst but the US has laid down a marker by cancelling Turkey's F35 contract precisely because they have acquired the S400, so we can extrapolate from that the Indians aren't going to be getting F35's any time soon.


Well all are equal but some are more equal


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## The Eagle

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Normally, I don't loose calm... however, the daily _bakwas_ is even testing patience of this deadhorse! IA all shall be well..



You aren't alone in this as every Pakistani's blood will boil. However, my post was directed towards those who have nothing to offer but still, does so merely to downplay our efforts & sacrifices.

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## Safriz

Indian reaction after hearing the news..

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## SIPRA

شاھین میزایل said:


> Indian reaction after hearing the news..





Some of the Indian posters entered this thread to post, but have disappeared, since long.

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## The Terminator

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *Oye... phen di sister!*
> 
> @Khafee waht?
> 
> I was suspecting a *D.C. Accord* ...and thought it would roll out in a mechanical type roadmap... *but this news you broke is Big!*
> *
> Looks like a Power-sharing formula is worked out between Pak and US...* and I suspect KSA-UAE are onboard as well.. which would be even better news than F solaz... yes, party pooper comment... I know!
> 
> Just heard/saw on Youtube AryNews that $125 mln are also released for F16... 27th Feb after effects!
> 
> *I see not the planes but Policy Instruements *... I know kids would be happy with this news... however, all weapon systems remain policy instruements..and must be seen as such.
> 
> If the F16s are to maintain a power balance then fine and dandy.. however, we must continue our work on JF17 blocks and move to JF18...
> 
> *I would like nothing better than UAE-KSA joining Project AZM... that would be some Policy Instruement!*
> 
> Anyhow, enough cautioning from this old deadhorse..let the kids have fun...with the Big News that You broke!
> 
> Thanks for Sharing... stay safe!



Well that's truly an over optimistic thought but as per our historic evidences, there is very slim chance of that happening. As you said UAE, KSA joining project Azm. According to our current situation all I may say about Project AZM may be a joint venture in which China and Pakistan as the major partners of this JV, Turkey and Russia as the supporting partners and after all that a few subsystems r integrations from European countries and South Africa. Just same as the overall footings of the JF17 JV. It will be the most realistic approach to say that.
When you say Saudis and UAE joining the Project AZM and being an active and major part of that is still a far cry and no more than fairy-tale stories. Why would Arabs join a suspicious JV when they may get just by throwing $$$$ the top of the line F-35 and future European 5th gen fighters. And again I would like to mention that Saudis would never trust and be friends of Turkey as it would endanger their own national Identity due to historic reasons. And US would not let those fatty rich Arabs to be in China's lap. And sorry to say Arabs can't breath without US and US based products. You must observe their life style first.

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## Riz

شاھین میزایل said:


> Indian reaction after hearing the news..


Its look like SU-30mki pilots seat..

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## Longhorn

Humble Analyst said:


> Well all are equal but some are more equal


True, but it still won't happen.


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## Fieldmarshal

Theirs another side to the coin and that is :
When Russia was in danger of losing india to the americans totally, came out the leaks from the Russian sources about Pak procuring su35 along with other major ticket items from russia.
So in order to supposedly check Pakistan's ingress into the ruskie arms market the Indians dished out BILLIONS n bought subs along with s400 etc.

So having learnt it from the other flee bagger (ruskie) the Americans seeing their product (f21) loose are also playing the same trick on the indians and in the process through these calculated leaks about Pak buying block 70 are trying to scare the crap out of banya n in the process forcing them to buy the f21.

The best we can hope for at this point in time is to pick up se hand hand f16. As this will be a short lived relationship

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## Longhorn

Fieldmarshal said:


> Theirs another side to the coin and that is :
> When Russia was in danger of losing india to the americans totally, came out the leaks from the Russian sources about Pak procuring su35 along with other major ticket items from russia.
> So in order to supposedly check Pakistan's ingress into the ruskie arms market the Indians dished out BILLIONS n bought subs along with s400 etc.
> 
> So having learnt it from the other flee bagger (ruskie) the Americans seeing their product (f21) loose are also playing the same trick on the indians and in the process through these calculated leaks about Pak buying block 70 are trying to scare the crap out of banya n in the process forcing them to buy the f21.


Phas gayi jaan shikanjay ander 
jiun velan vich gannaa

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## Path-Finder

Khafee said:


> Official confirmation
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155001325266055168


you haven't joined the club of sources have you

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## ziaulislam

Still skeptical on block70 but hey used f16b52 are not bad deal..problem is can we afford it..we spent billions on military operations and fencing alone

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## Bratva

Fieldmarshal said:


> Theirs another side to the coin and that is :
> When Russia was in danger of losing india to the americans totally, came out the leaks from the Russian sources about Pak procuring su35 along with other major ticket items from russia.
> So in order to supposedly check Pakistan's ingress into the ruskie arms market the Indians dished out BILLIONS n bought subs along with s400 etc.
> 
> So having learnt it from the other flee bagger (ruskie) the Americans seeing their product (f21) loose are also playing the same trick on the indians and in the process through these calculated leaks about Pak buying block 70 are trying to scare the crap out of banya n in the process forcing them to buy the f21.
> 
> The best we can hope for at this point in time is to pick up se hand hand f16. As this will be a short lived relationship



Thankyou for stating the obvious. "FAN BOYS" who consider themselves so smart will realize it hard way in the end that they were just the pawn in this complex game of leaks.

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## ziaulislam

Pakistansdefender said:


> Don't agree with oil and Chinese province pov. But you made valid points.
> Ask any sane person, like Pakistan that created proxies and send to fight Soviets does India ever have an courage to counter China like that in East turkistan or other places . India forces full well know they are paper tigers.


Will Pakistan do anything against china wishes if uncle sam say so...nope..thats what he was referring too...yeah things are sliding fast in chinese direction not a goood sign for USA to loose Pakistan to china camp...a 250 million nation..with great POTENTIAL(oil or no oil, who knows if oil is going to matter in 20 years)

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## Safriz

I wih and hope the deal gets embargoed and does not go through....
We the middleaged Pakistanis have been watching this American Soap opera since the 90s...
It does nothing good to Pakistan, and those jets come with too many strings attached...Completely useless.


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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> Sir, you will have to admit, it was more than two than went down, in a blaze of not so glory.


discretion is better part of valor

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## Ichigo

I have my doubts unless something actually happens. Alot of angels to this news with no solid standing in any particular direction not any to the point dead on proof. lets wait and see. If it happens that great but till than chill... Fanboys will be rocking the forum for a while... y not.... in the end time will tell. No wonder if its true its a good booster for PAF with the least investment.


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## volatile

Khafee said:


> Official confirmation


Khafee bhai utmost repsect for you but we all know after Su35 tweets and articles ,nothing is coming to Pakistan for 2 reasons .
1. US Congress and India factor 
2. Financial situation

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## Trailer23

Fieldmarshal said:


> So having learnt it from the other flee bagger (ruskie) the Americans seeing their product (f21) loose are also playing the same trick on the indians and in the process through these calculated leaks about Pak buying block 70 are trying to scare the crap out of banya n in the process forcing them to buy the f21.


After checking out LockheedMartin.com its clear as day that the *F-21* is nothing more than a strategy to lure India.

This is the F-21's Product Card (*.pdf):
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/documents/f21/F-21 Product Card.pdf

No Specs. Nada. Zero. Zilch...

Indians know that, and for that very reason they've already (indirectly) committed to procuring more _Rafales_, if not _Su-30MKi_.

In the very cheap animated video which seems was done by Lockheed Martin India, appears as if its offering something more and is an F-16 on steroids.






But then again, so is Japan AirForce's LM/Mitsubishi F-2


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## YeBeWarned

The Terminator said:


> Why do you believe it to be so? It's clearly against the declared policy stance of China that it would never intervene militarily as a third party in any foreign conflict and Pakistan/China haven't yet signed any contract of mutual defence or NATO type alliance. Same was the perception of Pakistani leadership in 1971 that US would send the fleet to terrorize the soviet backed India and China would pounce upon India to save us and see what hapenned!
> 
> Yes may be China may help us through continuous supply of weapons systems, their parts and spares etc. IMHO all China would do, they would help in training, supply of weapons, intelligence and reconnaissance, that's it. No boots on ground or a pilot in air.



71 Pakistan was wrong in World stage, we were cause of a Civil war and Bangli's were dying including our soldiers, it was pre-destined war which we will lose eventually , but today Pakistan is strong , we have nukes , we have powerful leadership and Army .China has invested around 70+ billion dollars (unofficial) . and just as America trying to raise India to counter China, why do you think China will let go any opportunity to demoralize Indian by Providing help to Pakistan ?

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## SQ8

Dubious said:


> The the hatchery released the chicks:
> 
> https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pak...ts-after-imrankhan-trump-meet-1.1564200291908
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1496522/u...ed-125m-support-programme-for-pakistans-f-16s


Nope, this is not the development being claimed.


----------



## YeBeWarned

imadul said:


> You mean FMS!
> CSF, Pakistan expenditure providing logistics, ops support, anti terror ops in FATA, bases, Intel etc, etc. Thats reimbursement Pakistan shoul get in its kitty.



yep, thanks for correction .



Riz said:


> Dont forget to tag few of our great think tank analyst & professionals of this forum...



TBH, most of them already and understand , that is why most of TTA and MODS are in favor of F-16 and American systems from Day 1 . They know the importance of US weapons and their quality is still unmatched, yes they come with strings and hurdles but if you are getting them with American paying half from CSF or FMS than i will say take it with both hands

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## ziaulislam

Philip the Arab said:


> Still if China offered something like J-20 or J-31 as bait they could do it secretly.


Much easy to steel it from usa rather than fishing here



Khafee said:


> Official confirmation
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155001325266055168


Zarvan...well..not happening ..he is always jinxed


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## The Terminator

Imo PAK Armed Forces should say F*** off to uncle Sam and don't rely on US supplied weaponary in long term phase. Just maintain a healthy fleet of F-16s and Cobras etc for time being and work hard to replace them as top tier weapon systems in our force with any other solution available on this planet, either indigenous or off the shelf or the most probably the JV with China, Turkey or Russia. US supply chain can never be trusted.
A vintage rusted gun which spits out bullets inaccurately is better than a brand new, shiny, state of the art, the most precision guided gun with a silver bullet in it which you can't fire when needed during desperate times.

Momin 1 hi sorakh se bar bar nhi dasa jata. But we are happy to repeat the history of getting choked by US in form of F-16 and AH-1 cobra supplies.

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> After checking out LockheedMartin.com its clear as day that the *F-21* is nothing more than a strategy to lure India.
> 
> This is the F-21's Product Card (*.pdf):
> https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/documents/f21/F-21 Product Card.pdf
> 
> No Specs. Nada. Zero. Zilch...
> 
> Indians know that, and for that very reason they've already (indirectly) committed to procuring more _Rafales_, if not _Su-30MKi_.
> 
> In the very cheap animated video which seems was done by Lockheed Martin India, appears as if its offering something more and is an F-16 on steroids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But then again, so is Japan AirForce's LM/Mitsubishi F-2


They have asked for more su30 with upgrade package & rafales already



Cookie Monster said:


> Right...I'm not saying that US can't subsidize...of course it can and it has in the past. I'm saying that Trump specifically isn't a fan of that. He sees it as other nations "taking advantage" of the US...he has been vocal about it on more than one occasion. This is why I was asking how is he on board...bcuz he likes to deal in cold hard cash rather than a strategic gain.


Probably will understand the logic of CSF and will release that money or use that money..i doubt he will approve something beyond that


----------



## Riz

Bratva said:


> Thankyou for stating the obvious. "FAN BOYS" who consider themselves so smart will realize it hard way in the end that they were just the pawn in this complex game of leaks.


Dont worry we will manage it, We will never let them escape from Afghanistan without getting these beasts..

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## UniverseWatcher

Khafee gonna get banned again if this doesn't happen [emoji23] jk bro...

Though on a serious note, most of the PDF members didn't even wanna look at F16 before the meeting of our PM and wanted us to focus on the development of JF17 however the situation has gotten interesting...

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## Adam_Khan

It's nothing more than a tall claim,I've just got one question to ask regarding the sale of new F.16s.Where will the money for new aircraft come from when we are already bankrupt?


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## Winchester

Blockbuster thread. 

Good for the management of PDF 

Anyways 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155043552935776256

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## HRK

Fieldmarshal said:


> Pak buying block 70 are trying to scare the crap out of banya n in the process forcing them to buy the f21.


Not the F-21 but it seems US will pitch F-35 to India and would pressurise India to discard S-400 deal with Russia, source is Indian media quoting US official (link)



> “The US is especially irked that in the _last three years no major big-ticket defence deal has been signed while talks are on with Russia for several large-scale deals. _*The only saviour can be if India places orders for the US advanced stealth fighters,” the official said.*

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## Trailer23

ziaulislam said:


> They have asked for more su30 with upgrade package & rafales already


Tender ain't over yet...

Atleast, they haven't made anything public. Just speculations so far.

B.S. was recently in Russia & had checked out the MiG-35 there as well.
https://zeenews.india.com/india/iaf...hter-deal-only-after-due-process-2222045.html


----------



## M.Bison

Anwar72 said:


> Isn't it the Americans and Saudis who were burning midnight oil to save a war between India and Pakistan on 27th night and 28th morning.
> And it was none other than president Trump who declared threat of war has diminished hours before IK declared Pakistan would release held Indian pilot ??
> 
> If fighting wars were like playing video games , then all countries would be fighting few hours war every day .



Why do you mistake the release of ahbi as a sign of weakness? In-terms of Geopolitics what did India gain in this recent misadventure? Geopolitics are a game and Indians don't realize that Pakistan is on another level. Frankly, The facts of 27night and 28th morning don't matter. What matters is how it was used to gain. Gus key mar Rey gey.. apni Gand ko hath day batey ho.

The events showed the world that India cannot handle Pakistan let alone stand tall against china. Even Modi realizes that.. That is why he wants a third party to negotiate in Kashmir. The loss of the proxy war in Afghanistan has far reaching consequences for Indian security and cohesiveness. The Taliban victory is worse for Indians than for Americans believe me and looking at the recent development, it looks like Taliban will get sharia after all.

The Indians underestimated the Pakistanis so severely that now they have been snubbed from all major decisions in their "backyard". They will be sat at the kiddie table with Saudi Arabia and Germany and I bet you are happy about that (lol). Afghanistan was supposed to be in the sphere of Vedic influence but it is looking more and more Chinese now. All the illegitimates that Indians supported are about to be kicked out and once America leaves then who is going to give access to Central Asia? 

Who will the jihadis turn to when America leaves? I guarantee that it will not be Pakistan, China or Russia. Why do you think China is preparing the Xinjiang and Pakistan is getting rid of the extremist in its country?

This world is not a Bollywood movie my son, this shit is real. You can't just get on your vimana and burn all of Lanka without getting your own hands dirty.

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## Max Pain

Winchester said:


> Blockbuster thread.
> 
> Good for the management of PDF
> 
> Anyways
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155043552935776256


indeed the numbers simply dont match


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## Raider 21

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Block 72s to be exact. PW familiarity.



Trailer23 said:


> Well as @Khafee has stated that they are Block 72, which means they're going to be brand-spanking-new off the assembly line in South Carolina.
> 
> No AirForce currently has the Block 70/72
> 
> Emmm, not that i'm questioning your reply, but there are quite a few other AirForces that have placed (confirmed) orders.
> 1. Bahrain
> 2. Slovakia
> 3. Iraq
> 4. Morocco
> 5. Taiwan (debatable)
> 6. Bulgaria
> 
> But then, it all depends on whom they'd like to prioritize.


UAE are getting Block 61s at the new factory.

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## Water Car Engineer

ziaulislam said:


> They have asked for more su30 with upgrade package & rafales already



Super MKI sure, but F21, Gripen E, and F18SH so far are in the running, have found local partners. F21's local production partner are TATA's aerospace division. I dont think Rafales will be produced in India. Just further orders.


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## The Terminator

Starlord said:


> 71 Pakistan was wrong in World stage, we were cause of a Civil war and Bangli's were dying including our soldiers, it was pre-destined war which we will lose eventually , but today Pakistan is strong , we have nukes , we have powerful leadership and Army .China has invested around 70+ billion dollars (unofficial) . and just as America trying to raise India to counter China, why do you think China will let go any opportunity to demoralize Indian by Providing help to Pakistan ?


Well you may be right as far as local circumstances were concerned in 1971. But globally and since independence we had been firmly in Western/US camp. Our unconditional support and involvement in cold War as a Frontline state against the most powerful superpower of that time - the soviet union speaks for our loyalty to the nembers of our camp. And by that standards we could suppose that US as superpower would definitely and unconditionally intervene to save its frontier ally from any misadventures. But hopes of our leadership proved to be wrong and on the other side USSR stood firm with its ally India in that conflict.
And on Chinese part I never said that China didn't or it won't support Pakistan in times of need. But it's only the Pakistanis foolish enough to spill their own blood for the US and Middle East and that too like water on countless occasions. Cold War, War against terrorism, Shia-Sunni conflict or more precisely Saudi-Iranian conflict. No one other than foreigner Mujahideen like Afghan Taliban etc would spill their own blood for Pakistan. That's lesson I learnt from our history.


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## Winchester

HRK said:


> Not the F-21 but it seems US will pitch F-35 to India and would pressurise India to discard S-400 deal with Russia, source is Indian media quoting US official (link)


 
This seems more plausible. 

The Americans may let Pakistan have our say in Afghanistan but India is an important cog in the wheel in its "Indo-Pacific" strategy. 

With China already way ahead of India in the 5th generation game, F-35 will be presented to India as a good counter.

India can also balance its S-400 and Rafael purchase with a F-35 deal to assuage the Americans.

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## alphapak

What is the per unit cost of a brand new F16 block 70?


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## Longhorn

Fieldmarshal said:


> Theirs another side to the coin and that is :
> When Russia was in danger of losing india to the americans totally, came out the leaks from the Russian sources about Pak procuring su35 along with other major ticket items from russia.
> So in order to supposedly check Pakistan's ingress into the ruskie arms market the Indians dished out BILLIONS n bought subs along with s400 etc.
> 
> So having learnt it from the other flee bagger (ruskie) the Americans seeing their product (f21) loose are also playing the same trick on the indians and in the process through these calculated leaks about Pak buying block 70 are trying to scare the crap out of banya n in the process forcing them to buy the f21.
> 
> The best we can hope for at this point in time is to pick up se hand hand f16. As this will be a short lived relationship





Bratva said:


> Thankyou for stating the obvious. "FAN BOYS" who consider themselves so smart will realize it hard way in the end that they were just the pawn in this complex game of leaks.


The Pakistani PM is invited to the US by the POTUS, who then offers to mediate in the Kashmir dispute and asks to be invited to Pakistan, is invited to the Congress by the speaker where he is feted and given the opportunity to speak to assembled legislators.
The Pakistani military top brass are also in US holding meetings with their counterparts for the best part of a week, where the COAS receives a 21 gun salute, and then 3 days after the return of the PM, the Americans announce a military assistance package.
Now I'm quite prepared to concede that we don't know the finer details of exactly what is going on and personally, I'm not really that bothered if we get more F16's or not, but are we expected to believe that the Americans have done all this and the Pakistani establishment have cooperated with them just to sell the Indians a few planes?

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## M.Bison

The Terminator said:


> Well you may be right as far as local circumstances were concerned in 1971. But globally and since independence we had been firmly in Western/US camp. Our unconditional support and involvement in cold War as a Frontline state against the most powerful superpower of that time - the soviet union speaks for our loyalty to the nembers of our camp. And by that standards we could suppose that US as superpower would definitely and unconditionally intervene to save its frontier ally from any misadventures. But hopes of our leadership proved to be wrong and on the other side USSR stood firm with its ally India in that conflict.
> And on Chinese part I never said that China didn't or it won't support Pakistan in times of need. But it's only the Pakistanis foolish enough to spill their own blood for the US and Middle East and that too like water on countless occasions. Cold War, War against terrorism, Shia-Sunni conflict or more precisely Saudi-Iranian conflict. No one other than foreigner Mujahideen like Afghan Taliban etc would spill their own blood for Pakistan. That's lesson I learnt from our history.



Dude, it is sad that Pakistan had spilt a lot of blood over the years for stupid causes.That being said, if you look at the Geopolitics of this neighborhood. You will see that Pakistan needs to be involved because it is surrounded by enemies. For example, if Pakistan did not intervene in soviet invasion of Afghanistan then Pakistan would have been left isolated and we might not have nuclear weapons. There is good and bad to every situation. We have been given a prime location geographically but we have to sacrifice to keep that location. Either way, Pakistan has allied itself with the winning side and continues to do that.

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## The Eagle

ziaulislam said:


> They have asked for more su30 with upgrade package & rafales already
> 
> 
> Probably will understand the logic of CSF and will release that money or use that money..i doubt he will approve something beyond that



I do believe that LM F-21 promotion video for India was produced in India and LM trolled IAF with a flag which is not Indian...... at-least it tells the value of deal may ever come to fruition...

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## The Terminator

Starlord said:


> 71 Pakistan was wrong in World stage, we were cause of a Civil war and Bangli's were dying including our soldiers, it was pre-destined war which we will lose eventually , but today Pakistan is strong , we have nukes , we have powerful leadership and Army .China has invested around 70+ billion dollars (unofficial) . and just as America trying to raise India to counter China, why do you think China will let go any opportunity to demoralize Indian by Providing help to Pakistan ?


And nukes are not like mortars or fighter jets for everyday use. They are more like a souvenir in a showcase hoping never to be used and to deter and fend off an invader that we are not a sweet pie but a tough nut to swallow. They would never be used unless our conventional forces are dessimated, all is doomed, the very existence of state is at stake and only then there maybe a decision to go MAD(Mutually Assured Destruction) at enemy.
China always supported Pakistan and that's also serves the Chinese state interests as well. They invested here when nobody wanna even visit here. They would help us in every manner but boots on ground is another matter which China never committed to do unless we sign a pact or alliance with each other something like NATO etc. Supplies, intelligence, humanitarian aid, clandestine Ops all are on table but boots on ground or battleships under Chinese flag is not gonna happen. But again I may say Chinese ship with Pakistani sailors and Pakistani flag on it could definitely be done. I hope you got my point. Thanks


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## The Eagle

Winchester said:


> Anyways



Well, US $125 Million is TST contract and does not involve Block-70 upgrade or purchase at all. That is not very hard to understand as both subjects are differently discussed on PDF.

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## cloud4000

Interesting if it’s true. I’ll wait for official confirmation, but I won’t bet on it.


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## bananarepublic

cloud4000 said:


> Interesting if it’s true. I’ll wait for official confirmation, but I won’t bet on it.



F-shola is love
F-shola is life 
None better than F-shola

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## Trailer23

Knuckles said:


> UAE are getting Block 61s at the new factory.


61's?


alphapak said:


> What is the per unit cost of a brand new F16 block 70?


Flyaway Conditions or with all the goodies...


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## Longhorn

M.Bison said:


> Dude, it is sad that Pakistan had spilt a lot of blood over the years for stupid causes.That being said, if you look at the Geopolitics of this neighborhood. You will see that Pakistan needs to be involved because it is surrounded by enemies. For example, if Pakistan did not intervene in soviet invasion of Afghanistan then Pakistan would have been left isolated and we might not have nuclear weapons. There is good and bad to every situation. We have been given a prime location geographically but we have to sacrifice to keep that location. Either way, Pakistan has allied itself with the winning side and continues to do that.


It's a great injustice and misconception when people say that we fought the Soviet Union in Afghanistan at the behest of the West when the truth is that we were already fighting the Soviets before the Americans decided to jump on the bandwagon as payback for Vietnam. The fact that we have essentially done the same to the US without the help of a superpower while literally being impoverished should give people a clue.

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## Winchester

The Eagle said:


> Well, US $125 Million is TST contract and does not involve Block-70 upgrade or purchase at all. That is not very hard to understand as both subjects are differently discussed on PDF.


 
Thank You and I understand the difference. 

The thread is about a proposed sale and upgrades to the existing fleet. All conjecture at the moment and doesn't take into account our financial situation hence my reason for posting the tweet which mentions the cost. 

I respect the poster but this thread is premature at best.


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## The Terminator

M.Bison said:


> Dude, it is sad that Pakistan had spilt a lot of blood over the years for stupid causes.That being said, if you look at the Geopolitics of this neighborhood. You will see that Pakistan needs to be involved because it is surrounded by enemies. For example, if Pakistan did not intervene in soviet invasion of Afghanistan then Pakistan would have been left isolated and we might not have nuclear weapons. There is good and bad to every situation. We have been given a prime location geographically but we have to sacrifice to keep that location. Either way, Pakistan has allied itself with the winning side and continues to do that.


And now it's time for the east to win. The days of western influence are counted. It's good to switch towards east with steady approach.
And again we have every right to be furious to our rulers that despite all that prime geopolitical location and enormous treasures and weather's Allah has bestowed upon us, we were unable to fetch enough favour and fortunes from all those blessings due to their sheer incompetence, malified intentions and corruption. Due to the factors mentioned the opportunity given to us turned to a plague of terrorism, illetracy and poverty instead of prosperity and showers of blessings upon us.

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## mingle

Winchester said:


> Thank You and I understand the difference.
> 
> The thread is about a proposed sale and upgrades to the existing fleet. All conjecture at the moment and doesn't take into account our financial situation hence my reason for posting the tweet which mentions the cost.
> 
> I respect the poster but this thread is premature at best.


My take is U guys don't read the tweets proper just jump the gun.

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## The Eagle

Winchester said:


> Thank You and I understand the difference.
> 
> The thread is about a proposed sale and upgrades to the existing fleet. All conjecture at the moment and doesn't take into account our financial situation hence my reason for posting the tweet which mentions the cost.
> 
> I respect the poster but this thread is premature at best.



Almost everyone agrees to wait for some more & official hint in this regard. As the Forum means to discuss possibilities with logic and provide substantive arguments to back up; hence, we have an open discussion. Nobody says that it is already mature or confirmed, even the OP as far as I can read and understand. So it comes to the posters credibility in regard to his/her knowledge on specific matters involving his/her status as well as attachments into relative field. But still, PDF Management did not certify the same and left it to discuss. 

Your agreement or disagreement is right and there is no harm to say that. 

Regards,

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## M.Bison

The Terminator said:


> And now it's time for the east to win. The days of western influence are counted. It's good to switch towards east with steady approach.
> And again we have every right to be furious to our rulers that despite all that prime geopolitical location and enormous treasures and weather's Allah has bestowed upon us, we were unable to fetch enough favour and fortunes from all those blessings due to their sheer incompetence, malified intentions and corruption. Due to the factors mentioned the opportunity given to us turned to a plague of terrorism, illetracy and poverty instead of prosperity and showers of blessings upon us.



Thats true, I agree with you. But look Pakistan is not even 100 years old and every country has gone through corruption and poor leadership in the past. Pakistan is certainly not immune to that and you could even argue that in this day and age it shouldn't have to take this long. But the world works on hope and inshallah we will get here.

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## Longhorn

The Terminator said:


> And now it's time for the east to win. The days of western influence are counted. It's good to switch towards east with steady approach.
> And again we have every right to be furious to our rulers that despite all that prime geopolitical location and enormous treasures and weather's Allah has bestowed upon us, we were unable to fetch enough favour and fortunes from all those blessings due to their sheer incompetence, malified intentions and corruption. Due to the factors mentioned the opportunity given to us turned to a plague of terrorism, illetracy and poverty instead of prosperity and showers of blessings upon us.


Our greatest geographic assets are also our greatest curse.
It's a double edged sword.
We have suffered the negatives, I hope we can harvest the positives.

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## mingle

Winchester said:


> This seems more plausible.
> 
> The Americans may let Pakistan have our say in Afghanistan but India is an important cog in the wheel in its "Indo-Pacific" strategy.
> 
> With China already way ahead of India in the 5th generation game, F-35 will be presented to India as a good counter.
> 
> India can also balance its S-400 and Rafael purchase with a F-35 deal to assuage the Americans.


F35 sorry dude


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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> this is the main reason and our continued limitation.
> if and when we nail this capability, both countries will benefit
> 
> 
> and now we have former PMLN speaker Ayaz Sadiq asking for Article 6 on Imran that he "confessed" (alleged) to Fox news that it was ISI assistance to CIA that helped in OBL raid (i.e giving information about the suspicious courier as a person of interest in Pakistan) that CIA was already tracking and used this information to confirm his link with OBL. either he was being smart *** (sugesting ISI never helped CIA and Imran cant take credit for Pakistan, OR as if ISI did something wrong thats Noonie logic for you).



Hi,

That information was already admitted by the then President Asif Zardari in an op-ed piece---I believe in a US news paper at that time---.

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## mingle

Longhorn said:


> Our greatest geographic assets are also our greatest curse.
> It's a double edged sword.
> We have suffered the negatives, I hope we can harvest the positives.


Agree with U


----------



## Longhorn

Winchester said:


> This seems more plausible.
> 
> The Americans may let Pakistan have our say in Afghanistan but India is an important cog in the wheel in its "Indo-Pacific" strategy.
> 
> With China already way ahead of India in the 5th generation game, F-35 will be presented to India as a good counter.
> 
> India can also balance its S-400 and Rafael purchase with a F-35 deal to assuage the Americans.


The Americans have already said that they cannot allow their F35 to coexist in the same arsenal as the S400 where it's weaknesses can be wargames and identified, they have cancelled Turkey's contract in this regard.
Can someone tell me why they would make an exception in India's case.
Answers on a postcard please.

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## jupiter2007

I have not heard anything about block 70/72 purchase from my sources in DC. Even if there were some preliminary talks at Pentagon level, it is still too early to predict anything. It has to be approved by the USA government.


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## alphapak

Trailer23 said:


> 61's?
> 
> Flyaway Conditions or with all the goodies...



Both. Would it be worth it to get 36 F16 to counter the Rafales?
India are paying 9 billion for 36 Rafales, how much would Pak have to
pay for 36 F16's?


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## mingle

Longhorn said:


> The Americans have already said that they cannot allow their F35 to coexist in the same arsenal, they have cancelled Turkey's contract in this regard.
> Can someone tell me why they would make an exception in India's case.
> Answers on a postcard please.


Americans love woman name india that's why these keyboard dudes r the best. 
Turkey was partner in developing F35 program for them its loss maybe they change theior mind what they gonna do with S400 I don't know.


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## The Eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That information was already admitted by the then President Asif Zardari in an op-ed piece---I believe in a US news paper at that time---.









@Irfan Baloch

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## Irfan Baloch

Winchester said:


> This seems more plausible.
> 
> The Americans may let Pakistan have our say in Afghanistan but India is an important cog in the wheel in its "Indo-Pacific" strategy.
> 
> With China already way ahead of India in the 5th generation game, F-35 will be presented to India as a good counter.
> 
> India can also balance its S-400 and Rafael purchase with a F-35 deal to assuage the Americans.


problem with your option is
for Americans... F 35 and S 400 cant go together
this is the very reason Americans have banned their NATO ally Turkey and removed from the program. they cant just offer it to India on special concessions.
in case you were not following the news. Americans contended that S 400 was not just an air defense platform but an intelligence gathering and data collecting system as well and would collect the data on F 35 over time and help Russians build up the necessary counter for the closely guarded stealth technology which is the sum of all the systems that make up that jet both physical and software the sensor fusion the flight characteristics etc).
all modern technology military or otherwise that is of such significance sends out data to its manufacturer (service provider) just look at your smart phone as an example.
if India wins some concessions then Turkey will demand compensation as well as inclusion back into the program as well.

but F that discussion about what India will get and what not. this thread is about our F 16s support program that has been already announced and approved.

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## Longhorn

Irfan Baloch said:


> problem with your option is
> for Americans... F 35 and S 400 cant go together
> this is the very reason Americans have banned their NATO ally Turkey and removed from the program. they cant just offer it to India on special concessions.
> in case you were not following the news. Americans contended that S 400 was not just an air defense platform but an intelligence gathering and data collecting system as well and would collect the data on F 35 over time and help Russians build up the necessary counter for the closely guarded stealth technology which is the sum of all the systems that make up that jet both physical and software the sensor fusion the flight characteristics etc).
> all modern technology military or otherwise that is of such significance sends out data to its manufacturer (service provider) just look at your smart phone as an example.
> if India wins some concessions then Turkey will demand compensation as well as inclusion back into the program as well.
> 
> but F that discussion about what India will get and what not. this thread is out our F 16s support program that has been already announced and approved.


Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Khafee

Knuckles said:


> UAE are getting Block 61s at the new factory.


No


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## Nasr

This whole thing about Block-72 purchase is sounding more and more like wishful thinking. For Pakistan, the way forward is Block-3 Thunders, PL-15 missiles, used F-16s put through MLU/SLEP and focus on Gen-5 development. Pakistan needs at least two decades of peace, economic prosperity and educational reforms which would produce a stable quantity of aeronautical engineers, propulsion experts, chemical scientists, metallurgists and so on. 20 years of peace, high number of graduates in all relevant fields and sustained growth of CPEC under strict accountability across the board. When Pakistan restructures and reforms state institutions, this would improve and stabilize Pakistan's economy on a phenomenal scale. 

These are the areas Pakistanis need to be focusing on, not rotten american carrots.


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## Irfan Baloch

The Eagle said:


> View attachment 571095
> 
> 
> @Irfan Baloch


someone tell the mentally challenged Patwaris
they want to invoke Article 6 on Imran
but lets leave that for another thread. they are busy posting economic reports of disaster during the period of Nawaz sherif believing they are to do with Imran khan.

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## The Terminator

The Eagle said:


> I do believe that LM F-21 promotion video for India was produced in India and LM trolled IAF with a flag which is not Indian...... at-least it tells the value of deal may ever come to fruition...
> 
> View attachment 571094


Well that flag has more friendly looks towards NATO . That's why LM designed it so India looks more friendly to NATO and US at this deal.

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## Irfan Baloch

Nasr said:


> This whole thing about Block-72 purchase is sounding more and more like wishful thinking. For Pakistan, the way forward is Block-3 Thunders, PL-15 missiles, used F-16s put through MLU/SLEP and focus on Gen-5 development. Pakistan needs at least two decades of peace, economic prosperity and educational reforms which would produce a stable quantity of aeronautical engineers, propulsion experts, chemical scientists, metallurgists and so on. 20 years of peace, high number of graduates in all relevant fields and sustained growth of CPEC under strict accountability across the board. When Pakistan restructures and reforms state institutions, this would improve and stabilize Pakistan's economy on a phenomenal scale.
> 
> These are the areas Pakistanis need to be focusing on, not rotten american carrots.


 there is an upgrade program reported by Dawn as well
so its not a wishful thinking. call it whatever block 

https://www.dawn.com/news/1496522/u...ed-125m-support-programme-for-pakistans-f-16s

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is an upgrade program reported by Dawn as well
> so its not a wishful thinking. call it whatever block
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1496522/u...ed-125m-support-programme-for-pakistans-f-16s


Irfan Sahab, What will happen when Zulus start coming in?

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## Raider 21

Khafee said:


> No


Testing was spotted there unless it was a Fort Worth bird and the loaned Block 60.


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## imadul

Can Pakistan F-16 and purported new BLK 70/72 can intercept Israel AF? Would IFF designate them as????
@Khafee @Starlord @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @HRK or any other expert, pro.


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## Irfan Baloch

Retired Troll said:


> Looks like a fair deal overall then.
> 
> Chinese are realistically not that far away btw


No,
not at all. my comment was in no way belittling Chinese . the engine and radar are among those elusive 
technologies that continue to challenge china's aspiration towards next generation jets
that said the way Huawei ( as an example) has made technological strides it has even astonished the Americans as well

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## Trailer23

alphapak said:


> Both. Would it be worth it to get 36 F16 to counter the Rafales?
> India are paying 9 billion for 36 Rafales, how much would Pak have to
> pay for 36 F16's?


​There really isn't an updated price listing currently available, but to get an idea.

- _Slovakia_ is paying $1.4 Billion for 14 Aircrafts

- _Bahrain_ is paying $3.8 Billion for 16 Aircrafts

- _Morocco_ is paying $3.7 Billion for 25 Aircrafts

- _Bulgaria_ (were) planning on paying $1.2 Billion for 8 Aircrafts, but that deal recently went to Parliament after the President veto'ed the purchase. LM aren't gonna be happy 'bout that one.

Note: I don't think jets are really offered at flyaway conditions 'cause then they'd just be for display at Airshows.

And India is planning on acquiring 114 more jets. 36 Jets are the least of our worries.


AESA Radar






Cockpit derived from the F-35

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## Irfan Baloch

imadul said:


> Can Pakistan F-16 and purported new BLK 70/72 can intercept Israel AF? Would IFF designate them as????
> @Khafee @Starlord @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @HRK or any other expert, pro.



maybe yes, maybe we can even intercept Russian, Afghan, Iranian and Bangladeshi air forces as well
but its irrelevant as we have no hostilities towards them
what matters to us is that we can use these jets (like before) to take out Indian SU 30s , Mirage 2000s and Mig 21s etc like the 27 Feb 19 air war.


I like these Innocent questions like
is Pakistan going to share these Jets with Chinese 
will Pakistan use these Jets to Invade Israel?
will Pakistan give these Jets to Iranians to Harass the American drones and Cargo ships?
will Americans prevent us if Pakistan reverse Engineers the American components?


@Oscar @Khafee @MastanKhan



Khafee said:


> Irfan Sahab, What will happen when Zulus start coming in?


BLA , TTP and their mentors will have a revisit to the 27 February surprise day.
the Camps setup for BLA Baloch Samachar across the border will also get more exposed and artillery or direct strikes from these helicopters will take them out

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## Pakhtoon yum

Retired Troll said:


> na kar. kabse?
> 
> F16s are everywhere in Pakistan atop every monument on the roundabouts. From Kitchen to the cabinet all Pakistanis are well versed in F16 lingo.
> 
> F16 also holds the honor of having idioms coined After it in Pakistan.
> 
> We need some Radar tech I gather. Will Block 70 meet that merit?


It's a curse


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## The Eagle

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is an upgrade program reported by Dawn as well
> so its not a wishful thinking. call it whatever block
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1496522/u...ed-125m-support-programme-for-pakistans-f-16s



There are few interesting mentions in the said support programme for Pakistan F-16s.

_The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale (FMS) to Pakistan for Technical Security Team (TST) in continued support of the F-16 program for an estimated cost of $125 million,” said an official announcement released on Friday evening._

_The US Defence Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification, notifying Congress of this possible sale on July 26, three days after the prime minister’s visit._

_The government of Pakistan requested a continuation of technical support services, which includes US government and contractor technical and logistics support services. The request also includes other related elements of logistics support to assist in the oversight of operations in support of the Pakistan Peace Drive *advanced *F-16 program. The total estimated program cost is $125 million._

_“This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the United States by protecting US technology through the continued presence of US personnel that provide 24/7 end-use monitoring,” the State Department said._

_“The proposed sale of this support will not alter the basic military balance in the region,” the statement added, in *an effort to assuage possible Indian irritation*._

_The principal contractor for this support program is Booz Allen Hamilton Engineering Services LLC, Fairborn, Ohio._

_Implementation of this proposed sale will require the assignment of 60 contractor representatives to Pakistan to assist in the oversight of operations as part of the Peace Drive F-16 program._

_The US Defence Security Cooperation Agency informed Congress that “there will be no adverse impact on US defence readiness as a result of this proposed sale.”_

_This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded._

_Almost all such requests, however, are approved after a possible debate. In case Congress rejects the request, the administration can still use a waiver to provide the requested services.
_
@Khafee it seems like the support programme may or may not include what you try to say but there are few things that matches the case in hand. I noticed few things like Pakistan requested, no power imbalance in region, in-case of congress rejection, administration will use a waiver means it is good to go and above all, it will be covered through FMS. 

Speaking of FMS, means it will be done from already existing agreement between both countries but the confusion arises about the alleged sponsorship by brotherly nations.

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## Trailer23

imadul said:


> Can Pakistan F-16 and purported new BLK 70/72 can intercept Israel AF? Would IFF designate them as????


Realistically - the only way the !srael could even get close to Pakistan Airspace is if they were to takeoff from Indian Bases.

Even India is not dumb enough to entertain such an option, as they know 27th of February will be revisited - this time with Nuclear might at the expense of !srael.


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## The Terminator

Longhorn said:


> The Americans have already said that they cannot allow their F35 to coexist in the same arsenal as the S400 where it's weaknesses can be wargames and identified, they have cancelled Turkey's contract in this regard.
> Can someone tell me why they would make an exception in India's case.
> Answers on a postcard please.


As they have made exception for Kurds in Syria and Greece etc. That's what Turks claim that it's only Turkey(mostly due to the Muslim blood and ottoman legacy) in NATO which US and other NATO allies can't see independent and strong. In india's case its not the deciding factor at least. After let's say 2030 there would be no use for US to keep holding F-35 from the world as its perimeters would already be established globally and Russia and US would have moved to far ahead in this tussle. So India may sooner or later, definitely get F-35 if it wants and as long as this deal serves the US interests too.


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## Mrc

Dono hath aur dono. Pair jor k. Maafi mango and say no ...

Go Chinese all the way . .

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## The Eagle

Irfan Baloch said:


> maybe yes, maybe we can even intercept Russian, Afghan, Iranian and Bangladeshi air forces as well
> but its irrelevant as we have no hostilities towards them
> what matters to us is that we can use these jets (like before) to take out Indian SU 30s , Mirage 2000s and Mig 21s etc like the 27 Feb 19 air war.
> 
> 
> I like these Innocent questions like
> is Pakistan going to share these Jets with Chinese
> will Pakistan use these Jets to Invade Israel?
> will Pakistan give these Jets to Iranians to Harass the American drones and Cargo ships?
> will Americans prevent us if Pakistan reverse Engineers the American components?
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Khafee @MastanKhan
> 
> 
> BLA , TTP and their mentors will have a revisit to the 27 February surprise day.
> the Camps setup for BLA Baloch Samachar across the border will also get more exposed and artillery or direct strikes from these helicopters will take them out



I want them Indian to call Trump a liar, more & more. By the way, a safe passage for US to leave Afghanistan and then a possible assurance in regard to Washington strategic interests; is not that cheap to say. We are looking at something worth bargain or to say, give & take based upon equality and mutual benefits for the both Countries. IK had the same approach being representative of whole nation. 

On other hand, COAS was received with Guard of Honour and 21 guns salute at Pentagon. In fact, something bigger happened hence, the hospitality & acknowledgement. US banned & listed BLA as terrorist outfit which allows us or any other victim of BLA to hunt them down with full force which means, the ground and space will be provided when a safe passage is done. It is all about equal profit for the parties.

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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> @Khafee
> Speaking of FMS, means it will be done from already existing agreement between both countries but the confusion arises about the* alleged sponsorship by brotherly nations*.



Allegations are just that, unless proven.

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> Allegations are just that, unless proven.



You missed the point as may be I wasn't very clear with wording. However, it is safe to assume that what you tell is not related to F-16 support programme as this is FMS payment whereby Block-70 or 72 seems to be different story where brotherly nations are involved. Righto?


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## Keysersoze

Trailer23 said:


> There really isn't an updated price listing currently available, but to get an idea.
> 
> - _Slovakia_ is paying $1.4 Billion for 14 Aircrafts
> 
> - _Bahrain_ is paying $3.8 Billion for 16 Aircrafts
> 
> - _Morocco_ is paying $3.7 Billion for 25 Aircrafts
> 
> - _Bulgaria_ (were) planning on paying $1.2 Billion for 8 Aircrafts, but that deal recently went to Parliament after the President veto'ed the purchase. LM aren't gonna be happy 'bout that one.
> 
> Note: I don't think jets are really offered at flyaway conditions 'cause then they'd just be for display at Airshows.
> 
> And India is planning on acquiring 114 more jets. 36 Jets are the least of our worries.
> 
> 
> AESA Radar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cockpit derived from the F-35


The Moroccans paid 952 million to upgrade their 23 F16s to blk 70.
3.7 billion for 25 new builds plus weapons. 

So the sale discussed would be approximately 6-7 billion.


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## El Sidd

Pakhtoon yum said:


> It's a curse



everything is these days

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## MastanKhan

imadul said:


> Can Pakistan F-16 and purported new BLK 70/72 can intercept Israel AF? Would IFF designate them as????
> @Khafee @Starlord @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @HRK or any other expert, pro.



Hi,

What is your problem with Israel---? Why do we need to bring up that issue---?

We only have one prime enemy---and the F16 will work as designed---.

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## The Terminator

I think Pakistan should go for T 129 and J-10 for stopgap measures until Project AZM reaches fruition. But unfortunately our military establishment's eyes are stuck in white a** of US. They can't see beyond this unless they are compelled to do so by US itself.


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## Khafee

Mrc said:


> Dono hath aur dono. Pair jor k. Maafi mango and say no ...
> 
> Go Chinese all the way . .


Not saying no to China btw.

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## Pakhtoon yum

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is your problem with Israel---? Why do we need to bring up that issue---?
> 
> We only have one prime enemy---and the F16 will work as designed---.


It's the fault of the dark ages when religious institutions taught BS to the people making them obsessed with certain countries and ideologies. It will take awhile before its reversed.



Khafee said:


> Not saying no to China btw.


So two platforms.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> Not saying no to China btw.


loooool  sir you are killing us

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## Mrc

Khafee said:


> Not saying no to China btw.




Bhai na pehlay block 52 milay na zulus na atak helis... 

Ab block 70 ki bhi payment ker do... 


Some times u do wonder are decision makers retards or just simple traitors??


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## The Eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is your problem with Israel---? Why do we need to bring up that issue---?
> 
> We only have one prime enemy---and the F16 will work as designed---.



It is always necessary (for them) to bring into discussion as the part of sabotage project.

Our weapons are for our defence as per our doctrine. Had it been the case like conspiracy theories of IFF not working in certain cases; why would a party oppose the idea to sell F-35 to Turkey or even gulf countries?

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## dilpakistani

37 pages on a fake news... wow... quality of PDF getting better every day

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## The Terminator

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is your problem with Israel---? Why do we need to bring up that issue---?
> 
> We only have one prime enemy---and the F16 will work as designed---.


As Israel have a tendency and track record of attacking and destroying key military installations of its enemies or potential threat. And our nuclear arsenal and potent military assets are surely a big potential threat to them. We have indirectly been at war with each other at many occasions. Agree or not but it's the reality you can't dismiss.

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## Nasr

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is an upgrade program reported by Dawn as well
> so its not a wishful thinking. call it whatever block
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1496522/u...ed-125m-support-programme-for-pakistans-f-16s



you're reading too much into it my friend, nothing really indicate that Pakistan is going get new F-16s (Block-whatever) under subsidy of U.S Military Aid program. Even if it does, this doesn't change the fact that Pakistan is further tied into and is vulnerable to american sanctions. The correct strategic approach is to buy more Block-42s, put them through SLEP/MLU and start stockpiling spares parts and engines for PAF's Viper fleet. Because unless I missed my guess, Pakistan wouldn't be as lucky with it's Vipers, as it has been with it's Mirages. Pakistan Government really ought to fund documentaries about how much Pakistan suffered due to U.S sanctions in 1965, 1971, 1983, 1998 and etc. Because the young generation tend always veer off tangent when it comes to military hardware and America. Either they are not aware of the historical records or just not been made aware of it. Otherwise it is just plain idiotic to be wishfully thinking about F-16s even after suffering for the last three decades. 

It seems that we lose sight of our objectives whenever talk of "*american freebees*" is mentioned. I mean to say man, haven't people been paying attention? The Prime Minister of Pakistan was setting an example and sending a message to the world and Pakistanis alike when he travelled as a common passenger in a commercial airline for a state visit to the most powerful country on earth. Imran Khan declared that he went their to set the relations between Pakistan and America that is based on mutual respect and treated as equals. There wasn't any mention of asking for aid, not even the CSF which is owed to Pakistan. Imran Khan showed the dignity a REAL MUSLIM exhibits. That is the sort of "*mental strength and resolve*" that Pakistanis should have, not begging for freebees from America. Frankly speaking, that sort of behavior is just disgusting, low selfesteemed and unbecoming of a Pakistani, a Muslim and more importantly a HUMAN. We are better than this, we are stronger than this ... you have a leader now that is showing "_*Iron Resolve*_" so I would suggest to fellow Pakistanis to grow a backbone and stand as strong, powerfully willed, Muslims. Because without it, we may just as well be indians.

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## Keysersoze

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is your problem with Israel---? Why do we need to bring up that issue---?
> 
> We only have one prime enemy---and the F16 will work as designed---.


Well allegedly the Israelis have been involved with several attempts to attack Pakistan and their nuclear facilities.

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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> You missed the point as may be I wasn't very clear with wording. However, it is safe to assume that what you tell is not related to F-16 support programme as this is FMS payment whereby Block-70 or 72 seems to be different story where brotherly nations are involved. Righto?



Brotherly nations are involved, but not in the way you think.

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## The Eagle

The Terminator said:


> As Israel have a tendency and track record of attacking and destroying key military installations of its enemies or potential threat. And our nuclear arsenal and potent military assets are surely a big potential threat to them. We have indirectly been at war with each other at many occasions. Agree or not but it's the reality you can't dismiss.



Try to look at bigger picture at the moment. However, did they succeed as we don't have Block-70 or 72? Had Israel attacked our N installation or they are waiting for us to buy Block-70 - 72 and then will do so? Our doctrine is based upon defence so it is clear like any other day. This is not about Israel centeric but our defence and that is all.



Khafee said:


> Brotherly nations are involved, but not in the way you think.



I didn't want to talk that "specific way of brotherly nations supporting us" hence, twisted. However, quoting you and Baloch sahib was was to clear someone else's understanding in regard to two different news.

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## M.Kamran_Pak

MastanKhan said:


> @Khafee,
> 
> I have written so much about this subject on this forum and I had wondered if I had lost it---but looking at what is happening---I realize that I still retain my sanity---.
> 
> The blame of this relationship is not only of the US---the major part falls on pakistan---. It is pakistan who did not know how to deal with the US---it is pakistan who did not know the military power of the US---.
> 
> It was some of the pakistani generals who wanted to make a vietnam of the US in AFG---. It was the pakistani members on this board who challenged the US to come and entangle pakistan military and they will show you how it is done---aka Blaine---.
> 
> Benzair came to power---she Zardari and her party saw the wealth that had come to pakistan---they went crazy---she sold Dr AQ and pak nuc program to the US and got entry back into pakistan politics---.
> 
> Nawaz did not want to be left behind---he sold out pakistan to India and thus got back in---. Nawaz and Hamid Mir became the main characters for the drama in mumbai created by the indian intel services---and today---Nawaz's daughter is creating unrest in the country---.
> 
> The OBL strike at Abbotabad was shocking in the sense that what did Obama wanted to do with pakistan---had he sold out Pakistan's interests to India---but the biggest shock was that why did the pak military generals did not strike back tactically at the accusations being hurled at pakistan and pakistan's image being decimated worldwide---.
> 
> Why did Kiyani---Pasha & Qamar Suleiman keep quiet about the issue---? If they had only uttered a public statement that pak military was associated in helping take out OBL---pakistan's image would not have been decimated all over the world---.
> 
> We go from one internal conspiracy to the other---from one internal sabotage to the other---and that was coming right from the top---.
> 
> The american state got carried away in the rhetoric created by the indian media that it would confront china---and pakistan is nothing---the indians don't even prepare to fight pakistan at all---that is how easy it would be---.
> 
> I don't know how the US admin believed in that---but I am pretty sure some would be scratching their heads at where the US loyalty and support was headed---.
> 
> Then to top it off---US lets its most loyal ally after the UK slip out of its hands---put it on a platter and gave it to china---. Actually the US dumped its most loyal and obedient ally pakistan for Indiana dgave it to china---.
> 
> Now that pakistan is firmly sitting in the chinese camp---and that the indian military is no match for china leave alone pakistan---maybe fresh questions were being asked in washington dc that how did we screw up so bad---.
> 
> The thing is that the US got greedy---it thought that india would be a great market for the US goods and if armed properly---india would take charge of china---. Amazing---how bad both these assessments were and yet no one in the US cared about it---.


Pakistan was never a loyal ally of USA after 1971, there was a strategic shift in Policy by ZA BHUTTO and Pakistan started finding new partners.
In 1979 after Soviet invasion ties remained not so warm till 1982-83, it was Pakistan who convinced US to sieze the opportunity to defeat USSR. (I don't know what would have happened if USSR remained in Afghanistan and defeating Soviets was also in interest of Pak).
After Soviet defeat relations again went sore as US/CIA wanted to control Afg war but ISI/Pak didn't let them.
Do you really believe US is stuck in Afg for 19 years in presence of "loyal ally" Pakistan.
But fact of the matter is Pakistan also dependant on US bcoz;
(1) US is our # 1 export partner
(2) Pak defense equipment, structure is still dependant on US ( although it's decreasing)
(3) US has influence on world financial institutions like IMF, World Bank, FATF etc. Etc. Etc.
(4) Strategic institution like UNSC, IAEA, NSG, MTCR etc. Etc.

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## Irfan Baloch

Keysersoze said:


> You know I am wondering if the US is building up a few countries as a counter to a country in the mid east that is troublesome.......


I pray that we are excused and kept out of that alliance.
Although India will love to see all our borders active and hostile towards us except the north.
we are still trying to finish off the 19 year old war we joined in early 2000 against another , much smaller country.

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## Khafee

Nilgiri said:


> *I have this on quite good authority,* just like what I know regarding what the US is planning (and already starting) to deploy "blackwater+" wise no matter what the "peace deal" for AFG shapes up to be.



In the real world, voices in your head, are irrelevant.

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## The Terminator

The Eagle said:


> Try to look at bigger picture at the moment. However, did they succeed as we don't have Block-70 or 72? Had Israel attacked our N installation or they are waiting for us to buy Block-70 - 72 and then will do so? Our doctrine is based upon defence so it is clear like any other day. This is not about Israel centeric but our defence and that is all.


Our defence against any or all threats whether it's even US or Israel not just India centric. If your doctrine is based on single isolated aspect and approach of your defence is so much limited in imagination then you are doomed to fail. Defence doctrine should be thorough and multi spectrum at all levels.
In real world adversaries don't give strategic time out to prepare yourself against them if you already had not devise a doctrine to tackle them


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## Khafee

The Terminator said:


> Our defence against any or all threats whether it's even US or Israel not just India centric. If your doctrine is based on single isolated aspect and approach of your defence is so much limited in imagination then you are doomed to fail. Defence doctrine should be thorough and multi spectrum at all levels.



To assume, that possibility has not been explored would be unfair. 

To further assume that someone will fall for your bait, and spill the beans. Oh well, keep trying.

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## The Eagle

The Terminator said:


> Our defence against any or all threats whether it's even US or Israel not just India centric. If your doctrine is based on single isolated aspect and approach of your defence is so much limited in imagination then you are doomed to fail. Defence doctrine should be thorough and multi spectrum at all levels.
> In real world adversaries don't give strategic time out to prepare yourself against them if you already had not devise a doctrine to tackle them



Do I need to declare and accept or even say that I have a doctrine for invading and attacking other countries including their beloved friend so sell me this & that? Why would somebody say that like this and then, try to prove otherwise. Our defence means, for anyone whosoever try to cross the line and that is it. How hard is it to understand. In the real world, we have a doctrine in readiness of any possible threat and that keeps evolving and progressing based upon drastic geopolitics changes as well as updates.

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## The Terminator

Khafee said:


> To assume, that possibility has not been explored would unfair. To further assume that someone will fall for your bait, and spill the beans. Oh well, keep trying.


Well I am not here for fairytale beans as are yours. I am sorry to say but IMHO you are the one who is actually spreading fairytale kind of stories like the huge Chinese fleet moving aggressively to threaten India and PLAAF jets waiting eagerly to have a few hundred sorties across the border kind of things. If those are the beans you are talking about then they would be better with you.


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## Khafee

The Terminator said:


> Well I am not here for fairytale beans as are yours. I am sorry to say but IMHO you are the one who is actually spreading fairytale kind of stories like the huge Chinese fleet moving aggressively to threaten India and PLAAF jets waiting eagerly to have a few hundred sorties across the border kind of things. If those are the beans you are talking about then they would be better with you.



Actually there is more, but then people like you wont be able to digest it.

Some of what I have said has been confirmed by serving officers on this forum. 

If you dont like what I say, do ask the mgmt to ban me.

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## The Terminator

The Eagle said:


> Do I need to declare and accept or even say that I have a doctrine for invading and attacking other countries including their beloved friend so sell me this & that? Why would somebody say that like this and then, try to prove otherwise. Our defence means, for anyone whosoever try to cross the line and that is it. How hard is it to understand. In the real world, we have a doctrine in readiness of any possible threat and that keeps evolving and progressing based upon drastic geopolitics changes as well as updates.


Totally agree with you. I said the same as you did in this post. The doctrine for Defence and efficiency and firepower of military should never be compromised regardless of threat's identity whoever it may be. So you have to regularly Guage your readiness and effectiveness against every possible threats overtly or covertly as ever evolving geopolitical situation dictates.


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## imadul

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is your problem with Israel---? Why do we need to bring up that issue---?
> 
> We only have one prime enemy---and the F16 will work as designed---.


I cant help that you have such myopic view ...didn't Israel planned and half attempted an attack on KRL in mid 80's?
Didn't Israel destroyed Iraq's reactors. 
Did Ehud Barak or Netanyahu gave you some personal iron clad guarantee that it wont attack Pakistan nuclear storage. Dont want to say more....things go far!!

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## Irfan Baloch

Nasr said:


> you're reading too much into it my friend, nothing really indicate that Pakistan is going get new F-16s (Block-whatever) under subsidy of U.S Military Aid program. Even if it does, this doesn't change the fact that Pakistan is further tied into and is vulnerable to american sanctions. The correct strategic approach is to buy more Block-42s, put them through SLEP/MLU and start stockpiling spares parts and engines for PAF's Viper fleet. Because unless I missed my guess, Pakistan wouldn't be as lucky with it's Vipers, as it has been with it's Mirages. Pakistan Government really ought to fund documentaries about how much Pakistan suffered due to U.S sanctions in 1965, 1971, 1983, 1998 and etc. Because the young generation tend always veer off tangent when it comes to military hardware and America. Either they are not aware of the historical records or just not been made aware of it. Otherwise it is just plain idiotic to be wishfully thinking about F-16s even after suffering for the last three decades.
> 
> It seems that we lose sight of our objectives whenever talk of "*american freebees*" is mentioned. I mean to say man, haven't people been paying attention? The Prime Minister of Pakistan was setting an example and sending a message to the world and Pakistanis alike when he travelled as a common passenger in a commercial airline for a state visit to the most powerful country on earth. Imran Khan declared that he went their to set the relations between Pakistan and America that is based on mutual respect and treated as equals. There wasn't any mention of asking for aid, not even the CSF which is owed to Pakistan. Imran Khan showed the dignity a REAL MUSLIM exhibits. That is the sort of "*mental strength and resolve*" that Pakistanis should have, not begging for freebees from America. Frankly speaking, that sort of behavior is just disgusting, low selfesteemed and unbecoming of a Pakistani, a Muslim and more importantly a HUMAN. We are better than this, we are stronger than this ... you have a leader now that is showing "_*Iron Resolve*_" so I would suggest to fellow Pakistanis to grow a backbone and stand as strong, powerfully willed, Muslims. Because without it, we may just as well be indians.


the report states Paksitani F-16s so upgrade is on already existing fleet. we cant buy new Vipers for 125 Million

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## Armchair

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Local weapons! turkish weapons! Chinese Weapons! even russian weapons are better janab!
> 
> zaroorat k waqt istemal tou kar saktay hain!



Maybe not a bad idea. If Pak provides services, let them pay in hard cash. Then we can use that cash to buy whatever we want. But problem is PAF only wants F-16s above all else, even the J-20 I suspect.


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## undercover JIX

*Washington greenlights military sales to Pakistan & India, months after air skirmish*
Published time: 27 Jul, 2019 07:56Edited time: 27 Jul, 2019 12:56
Get short URL





A PAF F-16. ©AAMIR QURESHI / AFP / An IAF C-17 and two Su-30MKI fighter jets. ©PRAKASH SINGH / AFP

218
1
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The US has approved $125 million worth of support for Pakistan’s F-16 warplanes as well as $670 million of support for India’s C-17 transport planes. The two regional rivals had their first direct air combat in decades this year.
The sale to Pakistan will require the deployment of some 60 contractor representatives, who will_ “provide 24/7 end-use monitoring”_ for the country’s US-made fleet of fighter jets, the Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) said in a statement on Friday. The package will service the Lockheed Martin F-16s delivered to Pakistan as part of the “Peace Drive” program, which includes 12 F-16C jets and 6 F-16D jets.




Political-Military Affairs, US Dept of State

✔@StateDeptPM
https://twitter.com/StateDeptPM/status/1154872650952585216

.@StateDept authorizes a proposed Foreign Military Sale (FMS) to #Pakistan for Technical Security Team (TST) Continued Support of the F-16 Program worth $125 million @StateDeptPM @State_SCA #FMSUpdate-https://go.usa.gov/xysdn 


1,057
5:54 PM - Jul 26, 2019
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Pakistan’s fleet of F-16s came into the spotlight in February during a security crisis, in which Indian and Pakistani warplanes engaged in direct combat for the first time in decades. New Delhi alleged that Pakistan had used the US-made jets during its retaliatory attack inside an Indian-controlled part of the disputed Kashmir region, losing one of them in an interception by the Indian Air Force. If true, it may have violated US arms export terms. Pakistan denied deploying F-16s for the mission and said it didn’t lose any aircraft.

ALSO ON RT.COM‘You’ll get a bloodier nose next time’: India issues warning to Pakistan on Kashmir war anniversary
Also on Friday, Washington announced its plans to sell spare parts and equipment for the Indian fleet of Boeing C-17 military transport planes. The contract would require 23 contractor representatives, the agency said.




Political-Military Affairs, US Dept of State

✔@StateDeptPM
https://twitter.com/StateDeptPM/status/1154874313486544899

.@StateDept authorizes a proposed Foreign Military Sale (FMS) to #India for C-17 Sustainment Follow-On support worth $670 million @StateDeptPM @State_SCA #FMSUpdate-https://go.usa.gov/xysdv 


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The DSCA explained that the sales _“will not alter the basic military balance in the region.”_ The approvals come days after a visit to the US by Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan, and a month after US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo made a high-level visit to India.

https://www.rt.com/news/465184-us-sales-pakistan-india/


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## The Terminator

Khafee said:


> Actually there is more, but then people like you wont be able to digest it.
> 
> Some of what I have said has been confirmed by serving officers on this forum.
> 
> If you dont like what I say, do ask the mgmt to ban me.


No who I am to ask to ban you. It's a discussion forum and everyone has a right to share his/her own point of view within the boundaries of ethics everyone has a right to speak here. We may have disagreements too but that's all the discussion is for and it's the beauty of debate to have disagreements and arguments between the participants. Nothing hateful. Peace and love from me ￼￼￼ cheers

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## undercover JIX

More AMRAAMs ??? lets hear Indian cries to USA.
So what happened to indian complain that F16 used to beat them during broad day light? more coming...

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## imadul

Irfan Baloch said:


> maybe yes, maybe we can even intercept Russian, Afghan, Iranian and Bangladeshi air forces as well
> but its irrelevant as we have no hostilities towards them
> what matters to us is that we can use these jets (like before) to take out Indian SU 30s , Mirage 2000s and Mig 21s etc like the 27 Feb 19 air war.
> 
> 
> I like these Innocent questions like
> is Pakistan going to share these Jets with Chinese
> will Pakistan use these Jets to Invade Israel?
> will Pakistan give these Jets to Iranians to Harass the American drones and Cargo ships?
> will Americans prevent us if Pakistan reverse Engineers the American components?
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Khafee @MastanKhan
> 
> 
> BLA , TTP and their mentors will have a revisit to the 27 February surprise day.
> the Camps setup for BLA Baloch Samachar across the border will also get more exposed and artillery or direct strikes from these helicopters will take them out


With you that they will work against India and some other hostile forces.
I am not military aviation expert....but I highly doubt Pak F-16 will work against any Israel attack on a Pak "facility"!!!
What do you think Eedogan hell bent upon buying S-400? At great risk to its investment in F-35.


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## The Eagle

The Terminator said:


> Totally agree with you. I said the same as you did in this post. The doctrine for Defence and efficiency and firepower of military should never be compromised regardless of threat's identity whoever it may be. So you have to regularly Guage your readiness and effectiveness against every possible threats overtly or covertly as ever evolving geopolitical situation dictates.



So does that require any query in regard to any hostility against Pakistan?



Nilgiri said:


> Mr "call lockheed to ask" himself
> 
> I worked certain defense projects in aerospace sector, I have met people in the know....and people can simply see for themselves if any such F-16 acquisition is announced. Simple. You have got them all excited for some forum echo chamber drama yet again....as you put it "voices in the head" (but your case lol).
> 
> BTW you were quite fairly banned. I know you are seriously smarting from no action taken against Iran after braying for it endlessly.



If you mean in regard to "not official" news here in discussion then, we all agreed on this. But to say that just because it isn't official hence, shall never brought to discussion even on the basis of possibility, logic, updates and observations under different progresses. Fishing aside but let's not take jibes at each other rather, we have a subject to discuss and not the person. I already read your comment in regard to Forum Quality and what not but that is not worth to remind or even discuss in reply, is it?

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## Spectre

Nilgiri said:


> It won't happen. Some guy in this thread is literally saying "call lockheed on phone to ask"
> 
> And now its 38 page long thread lol. This is state of PDF these days. SU-35 acquisition saga was quite similar.
> 
> People literally have no idea what a good portion of pentagon top policy makers were involved in 10 years ago, those that were present at the frontlines anyway. There is an absolute red line regarding any major acquisition by haqqani-network supporters...given there is long rapsheet and its quite personal for these pentagon folks. I have this on quite good authority, just like what I know regarding what the US is planning (and already starting) to deploy "blackwater+" wise no matter what the "peace deal" for AFG shapes up to be.



I know its hogwash.. But i wish Pakistan really manages to acquire some decent western hardware in a public deal so that we don't have any excuse to slack off.

Relying on the incompetence of an enemy or generosity of an ally is a blunder as things are not always what they seem to be.

We have already committed this mistake twice, once in 62 and once in Kargil and have paid dearly for it. A lesson is long overdue.

As for US or for that matter Russia, its not in their interest to let India get to big for it's boots. We don't have an ideological, racial or religious common ground with either of them which could result in true strategic alliance. Nature of our relationship as always remains transactional.

We are so lucky that we have got access to all kinds of technology and hardware and we have to make hay while the sun shines. Look at China and one has to admire how far they have gone under such adverse circumstances by begging borrowing or stealing, while we rely on outsiders helping us time and again when it comes to military.technology.

What happens when US, Israel, France and Russia decide to stop supplying us in a scenario where we have to conduct another nuclear test or blow up some satellite in space.

At the risk of repeating myself for the tenth time, we should absorb as much technology while we can never minding the costs or penny pinching by our bureaucrats. S-400, Thad, F-21, Rafaels, EMALS, Drones get them all while you can along with whatever ToT and reverse engineer the rest. If sacrifices have to be made elsewhere then so be it. 

Remember *All Politics, Economics and Diplomacy *is done on the back of hard military power. Without an unshakeable Military everything can turn into dust in a week

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## Armchair

RIWWIR said:


> Sir Jee: Please don't tag @TheTallGuy. He may come up with another 8 down, making a total tally of 16.



@TheTallGuy was always the one who had the more correct numbers than the rest of us. Salute to him.

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## Nilgiri

The Eagle said:


> So does that require any query in regard to any hostility against Pakistan?
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean in regard to "not official" news here in discussion then, we all agreed on this. But to say that just because it isn't official hence, shall never brought to discussion even on the basis of possibility, logic, updates and observations under different progresses. Fishing aside but let's not take jibes at each other rather, we have a subject to discuss and not the person. I already read your comment in regard to Forum Quality and what not but that is not worth to remind or even discuss in reply, is it?



OK so potential-ism thread, got it. Like I said, everyone can just wait and see themselves. I didn't read thru the whole thread, just where someone tagged me and then i looked at the first page and flicked through is all. Everyone is free to carry on. Yes my judgement on the forum quality is my personal one....anyone can agree or disagree.


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## NA71

38 pages on imaginary situation.....wow.....remember we were talking about raising alternate platform from other reliable sources....just to get out of US trap....Anyway, we should capitalize the current situation intelligently. 

PM is going to Russia in September, if Putin would give some hint on SU/MiG...how it would go for us?


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## The Eagle

Nilgiri said:


> OK so potential-ism thread, got it. Like I said, everyone can just wait and see themselves. I didn't read thru the whole thread, just where someone tagged me and then i looked at the first page and flicked through is all. Everyone is free to carry on. Yes my judgement on the forum quality is my personal one....anyone can agree or disagree.



The wait could have been done without provoking anyone or by saying irrelevant stuff. The Forum Quality also speaks about your participation as well as anyone else's so introspection is all what we need in these times. The Forum Quality is your personal judgment and that doesn't appear to much convincing to quote one member and then say like to provoke.

Your judgment is indeed your personal one and then, others have the independence to discuss threads as such. Why to taunt others while you expect the remedy of sharing your judgment freely.

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## ali_raza

Nilgiri said:


> Mr "call lockheed to ask" himself
> 
> I worked certain defense projects in aerospace sector, I have met people in the know....and people can simply see for themselves if any such F-16 acquisition is announced. Simple. You have got them all excited for some forum echo chamber drama yet again....as you put it "voices in the head" (but your case lol).
> 
> BTW you were quite fairly banned. I know you are seriously smarting from no action taken against Iran after braying for it endlessly.


and why dont u shower us with ur knowledge as u claimed.
but u have non u just know to hurt ur bulllshhit at respect members who quite honestly r wayy more credible then u r.
who r u we can buy like u dozen a dime at local market.
our respected @Khafee is one in millions and we trust his words over ur blabbering 
good night

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## Spectre

Nilgiri said:


> Calm down lol.



If you think about it a little more deeply, Trump is a tool who doesn't have an original thought in his brain. He vomits whatever is fed to him by Fox News or his family and friends like Kushner and inc. Obviously there are lot of inputs from some very influential lobbies like Saudis. 

On the other hand he is deeply suspicious of State Dept and Pentagon which usually gives policy advise on issues such as FMS so any thing said by them will have a counter effect and pushes him more towards Pakistan. 

He is all for short term optics and an exit from Afganistan gives him lot of brownie points so he can pay more than what is norm if Pakistan manages to create an illusion of delivery the actual mechanics be damned. 

The only thing which makes all of this a pipe dream is US congress. No way in hell they are gonna allow sale of advances F-16s but upgrades are possible if Pakistan pays for it on its own dime. 

Its a harsh reality but an upgraded F-16 even to block 52 standard posses a clear and present danger to India let alone one upgraded V standard


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## The Eagle

ali_raza said:


> and why dont u shower us with ur knowledge as u claimed.
> but u have non u just know to hurt ur bulllshhit at respect members who quite honestly r wayy more credible then u r.
> who r u we can buy like u dozen a dime at local market.
> our respected @Khafee is one in millions and we trust his words over ur blabbering
> good night



Aslam Achoo of BLF was found hospitalized in India receiving medical aid for his wounds and later was taken down inside Afghanistan. Then we got KJ one living example of India sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan while using Iranian gateway. We also do know that why the people like Harbiyar Marri etc been in love with India and Ajit Doval has to pay hefty amount to the TTP fighters through Afghanistan mainland. There are further chatters as how come ISIS can reach Kashmir while India always wanted to brand Kashmir Freedom Struggle as terrorism. But, unfortunately we have people in neighborhood that comes here by blaming us and still lecture us about the freedom of expression and remedy of free judgments having choice of agreement or disagreement.

Thread banned & that particular post deleted.

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## Avicenna

Cookie Monster said:


> Right...I'm not saying that US can't subsidize...of course it can and it has in the past. I'm saying that Trump specifically isn't a fan of that. He sees it as other nations "taking advantage" of the US...he has been vocal about it on more than one occasion. This is why I was asking how is he on board...bcuz he likes to deal in cold hard cash rather than a strategic gain.



Money is at the top from Trump.

But I'm assuming he wants to get re-elected.

Trump is first and foremost about himself.

Perhaps Pakistan can be used to facilitate a favorable exit for the US from Afghanistan.

This being HUUUGE! news and potentially a point in the upcoming election.

The cost of 18-24 Vipers are "PEANUTS" if it means helping him get re-elected.

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## Path-Finder

after getting briefed we finally have internet sena on the thread.

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## SIPRA

Khafee said:


> @Horus @The Eagle @Irfan Baloch @Arsalan @Dubious Useless saffron troll needs help.



He may be un-chaddied.

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## Trailer23

Keysersoze said:


> The Moroccans paid 952 million to upgrade their 23 F16s to blk 70.


So that would bring the upgrade of each Block 52 to Block 72 around $41 Million...

PAF has 18 Block 52's in its inventory, so they'd cost...$745 Million (give or take).


Irfan Baloch said:


> the report states Paksitani F-16s so upgrade is on already existing fleet. we cant buy new Vipers for 125 Million


So what kind of upgrade can we get for a mere $125 Million...?

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## The Eagle

Spectre said:


> He is all for short term optics and an exit from Afganistan gives him lot of brownie points so he can pay more than what is norm if Pakistan manages to create an illusion of delivery the actual mechanics be damned.



Don't you think that India created that illusion but later, failed to prove, hence, Pakistan taking the lead. If you may read and dig into Delhi Afghan policy, will find out that how many promises were being made by Modi with US in lieu of full access to Afghanistan and being introduced as Friendly to Ghani. US also acknowledges, even behind the curtains that India did use Afghanistan mainly to harm Pakistan. India did use Afghanistan but then, totally failed to fulfill the promise of US safe passage at all. Delhi took advantage of Washington need by making tall claims but as agenda was different hence, caught incompetent. 

Why would US join a table of peace talks along with China & Russia on Pakistan's suggestion? and then asks Pakistan openly to help out which is indeed the fair deal for everyone including Afghanistan though, we don't see India much into process. India got the best from creating illusion firstly and been harming us but no more. What Pakistan presented was the real deal of peace and that same was not new but since start.

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## Spectre

The Eagle said:


> Don't you think that India created that illusion but later, failed to prove, hence, Pakistan taking the lead. If you may read and dig into Delhi Afghan policy, will find out that how many promises were being made by Modi with US in lieu of full access to Afghanistan and being introduced as Friendly to Ghani. US also acknowledges, even behind the curtains that India did use Afghanistan mainly to harm Pakistan. India did use Afghanistan but then, totally failed to fulfill the promise of US safe passage at all. Delhi took advantage of Washington need by making tall claims but as agenda was different hence, caught incompetent.
> 
> Why would US join a table of peace talks along with China & Russia on Pakistan's suggestion? and then asks Pakistan openly to help out which is indeed the fair deal for everyone including Afghanistan though, we don't see India much into process. India got the best from creating illusion firstly and been harming us but no more. What Pakistan presented was the real deal of peace and that same was not new but since start.



I dont know what promises India made, Unlike Pakistan which has guaranteed a settlement. May be you can point out a relevant news report where GoI has made a commitment to either US or someone else regarding peace or for that matter anything else in Afghanistan except for non military aid. 

As for Pakistan, I hope it delivers it will be good for everyone but with a caveat that Taliban doesn't bite back the hand which feeds them. You can never reason with these kinds as you guys well know..


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## Khafee

Spectre said:


> The only thing which makes all of this a pipe dream is US congress.


When US Congress does approve it, please feel free to comment.

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## Spectre

Khafee said:


> When US Congress does approve it, please feel free to comment.



P.S. Look at the US congress composition, they are going to impeach trump. Do you think they are gonna give his paradigm changing policy a pass? Let alone Trump hasn't said a word about offering Pakistan F-16s.


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## mingle

Spectre said:


> If you think about it a little more deeply, Trump is a tool who doesn't have an original thought in his brain. He vomits whatever is fed to him by Fox News or his family and friends like Kushner and inc. Obviously there are lot of inputs from some very influential lobbies like Saudis.
> 
> On the other hand he is deeply suspicious of State Dept and Pentagon which usually gives policy advise on issues such as FMS so any thing said by them will have a counter effect and pushes him more towards Pakistan.
> 
> He is all for short term optics and an exit from Afganistan gives him lot of brownie points so he can pay more than what is norm if Pakistan manages to create an illusion of delivery the actual mechanics be damned.
> 
> The only thing which makes all of this a pipe dream is US congress. No way in hell they are gonna allow sale of advances F-16s but upgrades are possible if Pakistan pays for it on its own dime.
> 
> Its a harsh reality but an upgraded F-16 even to block 52 standard posses a clear and present danger to India let alone one upgraded V standard


Now Indians will tell president of united states of America what to do and what not realy???? Koun log ho tusi

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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

#burnol ka stok price bahut jyadid uupar ho gaye hai hamsaya mulk mein

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## Spectre

mingle said:


> Now Indians will tell president of united states of America what to do and what not realy???? Koun log ho tusi



Why not? As long as i can think i can tell him anything i want. Its another matter if he listens me to me or my Govt.


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## Ghareeb_Da_Baal

mingle said:


> Now Indians will tell president of united states of America what to do and what not realy???? Koun log ho tusi


Bro they can as they are doing the moon thing and now lunar thing. 
#chupapowar2020

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## The Eagle

Spectre said:


> I dont know what promises India made, Unlike Pakistan which has guaranteed a settlement. May be you can point out a relevant news report where GoI has made a commitment to either US or someone else regarding peace or for that matter anything else in Afghanistan except for non military aid.



It is up-to you to seek the information through proper channels within India but then again, it was never said openly but unfortunately, none asked as how India got that much free roaming as well as leading rule close to Ghani setup suddenly? For the reference, remember Nikki Haley quoting India as necessary to be a watchdog in South Asia for US. (the words may slightly differ in order of appearance but statement concluded as it is).



Spectre said:


> As for Pakistan, I hope it delivers it will be good for everyone but with a caveat that Taliban doesn't bite back the hand which feeds them. You can never reason with these kinds as you guys well know..



We aren't handling Taliban but we made necessary arrangements to bring them to the table for peace talks with US. Pakistan never had the control over Taliban at all and US know that. All we can do is to arrange necessary bridge for peace talks. Taliban used to visit and sit inside Washington once.

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## WAJsal

Spectre said:


> He is all for short term optics and an exit from Afganistan gives him lot of brownie points so he can pay more than what is norm if Pakistan manages to create an illusion of delivery the actual mechanics be damned.


I think it would be good for Pak if we can use this to our advantage and be the main influencer in Afghanistan. Add to this the US assistance, and peace in this region would also help; but I think the Afghan govt would create hurdles for both the US and Pak. Interesting to see what happens.

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## mingle

Spectre said:


> Why not? As long as i can think i can tell him anything i want. Its another matter if he listens me to me or my Govt.


Why he should listen to U??? Enlighten me?? You guys live in separate world which is not planet earth for sure.



Ghareeb_Da_Baal said:


> Bro they can as they are doing the moon thing and now lunar thing.
> #chupapowar2020


Modis keyboard warriors

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## SQ8

Spectre said:


> Why are you getting so personal and anxious? I didn't even quote you for pete's sake.
> 
> @Eagle @Oscar Is advising someone to self immolate within forum rules? If so, I shall use this phrase often considering such an example has been offered by a professional.
> 
> P.S. Look at the US congress composition, they are going to impeach trump. Do you think they are gonna give his paradigm changing policy a pass? Let alone Trump hasn't said a word about offering Pakistan F-16s.
> 
> Only thing we have are delusions of an anonymous internet poster


Trump is not getting impeached. 
He just bypassed congress for Saudi Arabia.

That being said I do not see an offer yet and see no value or worth in your natural opposition or pessimism to this claim or any optimism for it either.

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## The Eagle

Members are advised to avoid any personal attack or posting of Inappropriate wording. Hope wouldn't need further reminders.

Regards,

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## Trailer23

Spectre said:


> I dont know what promises India made, Unlike Pakistan which has guaranteed a settlement.


I'm not certain if Pakistan has guaranteed a settlement to date. Yeah, they've said that they can bring the Taliban to the table, but its anyone's guess what the Taliban have planned out.

As for India, who knows - maybe you guys promised to do something with DoD & never called back. Instead, you guys went ahead and placed an order for the S-400. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Americans have realized that India has no intention of buying any jets either.

Verbal promises in the form of Press Conferences & MoU may been done for publicity, but never lived up to fruition.

Who knows...

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## mingle

Avicenna said:


> Money is at the top from Trump.
> 
> But I'm assuming he wants to get re-elected.
> 
> Trump is first and foremost about himself.
> 
> Perhaps Pakistan can be used to facilitate a favorable exit for the US from Afghanistan.
> 
> This being HUUUGE! news and potentially a point in the upcoming election.
> 
> The cost of 18-24 Vipers are "PEANUTS" if it means helping him get re-elected.


Trump will win with or without Afghanistan American economy is hot and they getting new trade agreements with all theior trading partners on terms what suits them along plus Democratic party is in shambles they have no proper candidates who challenge Trump.

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## cloud4000

undercover JIX said:


> More AMRAAMs ??? lets hear Indian cries to USA.
> So what happened to indian complain that F16 used to beat them during broad day light? more coming...



Where in the article does it say more AMRAAMS? 

Nevertheless, it’s nice to see US military/industrial complex doing well.


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## Spectre

The Eagle said:


> It is up-to you to seek the information through proper channels within India but then again, it was never said openly but unfortunately, none asked as how India got that much free roaming as well as leading rule close to Ghani setup suddenly? For the reference, remember Nikki Haley quoting India as necessary to be a watchdog in South Asia for US. (the words may slightly differ in order of appearance but statement concluded as it is).
> 
> 
> 
> We aren't handling Taliban but we made necessary arrangements to bring them to the table for peace talks with US. Pakistan never had the control over Taliban at all and US know that. All we can do is to arrange necessary bridge for peace talks. Taliban used to visit and sit inside Washington once.



Well it would be good for India if Pakistan cannot control Taliban but you guys do have the best relationship with them out of everyone else and thats why you have leverage with US, Russia and Iran. 

Its a fine line to dance along and I can see only benefits if one doesn't get too greedy


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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> I'm not certain if Pakistan has guaranteed a settlement to date. Yeah, they've said that they can bring the Taliban to the table, but its anyone's guess what the Taliban have planned out.
> 
> As for India, who knows - maybe you guys promised to do something with DoD & never called back. Instead, you guys went ahead and placed an order for the S-400. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Americans have realized that India has no intention of buying any jets either.
> 
> Verbal promises in the form of Press Conferences & MoU may been done for publicity, but never lived up to fruition.
> 
> Who knows...


U guys not getting the point Americans believe current Pak Govt is best bet for them to secure whole region Pak and Afghanistan. Deal will happen Taliban can't fight another 18 yrs along US too all Americans wants bases nothing more which I believe they will get eventually from Talibs. Because any new Govt in Afghanistan needs money and foreign support and without US help it's not possible.


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## Spectre

Oscar said:


> Trump is not getting impeached.
> He just bypassed congress for Saudi Arabia.
> 
> That being said I do not see an offer yet and see no value or worth in your natural opposition or pessimism to this claim or any optimism for it either.



House judiciary committee have approached for sealed grand jury papers so that they can start impeachment proceedings. Ofcourse it wouldnt be successful cause of Senate but the wheels are turning.

Tell me do you seriously think US Congress is gonna side with Trump if he approves new F-16s or they gonna fight him? The way things are going if Trump says Day, Congress would say night.

Bypassing Congress requires Veto and there are different levels to it. Lets see if Trump is gonna pay the price


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## mingle

Spectre said:


> House judiciary committee have approached for sealed grand jury papers so that they can start impeachment proceedings. Ofcourse it wouldnt be successful cause of Senate but the wheels are turning.
> 
> Tell me do you seriously think US Congress is gonna side with Trump if he approves new F-16s or they gonna fight him? The way things are going if Trump says Day, Congress would say night.


Congress passed last eight F16s too which actually blked by Trump by refusing CSF for deal. House is with Pak and new Govt has great reputation any deal which I believe will be a big package including jetts and other stuff will pass by house like Paul Ryan let it passed last time.

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## Spectre

WAJsal said:


> I think it would be good for Pak if we can use this to our advantage and be the main influencer in Afghanistan. Add to this the US assistance, and peace in this region would also help; but I think the Afghan govt would create hurdles for both the US and Pak. Interesting to see what happens.



Even if it is not for humanitarian reasons but cold realpolitik, Peace in Afghanistan benefits everyone. 

One may not know this but even India has working relationship with Taliban and we do a lot of transactions with them with regards to safe passage for our convoys. A peaceful Afghanistan is good for business and would cut down on opium trade as well which is more of a menace to India than jihadis



mingle said:


> Congress passed last eight F16s too which actually blked by Trump by refusing CSF for deal. House is with Pak and new Govt has great reputation any deal which I believe will be a big package including jetts and other stuff will pass by house like Paul Ryan let it passed last time.



Check again. Thanks


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## ali_raza

The Eagle said:


> Aslam Achoo of BLF was found hospitalized in India receiving medical aid for his wounds and later was taken down inside Afghanistan. Then we got KJ one living example of India sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan while using Iranian gateway. We also do know that why the people like Harbiyar Marri etc been in love with India and Ajit Doval has to pay hefty amount to the TTP fighters through Afghanistan mainland. There are further chatters as how come ISIS can reach Kashmir while India always wanted to brand Kashmir Freedom Struggle as terrorism. But, unfortunately we have people in neighborhood that comes here by blaming us and still lecture us about the freedom of expression and remedy of free judgments having choice of agreement or disagreement.
> 
> Thread banned & that particular post deleted.


honestly this was expected from a gangu

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## ziaulislam

The Eagle said:


> I do believe that LM F-21 promotion video for India was produced in India and LM trolled IAF with a flag which is not Indian...... at-least it tells the value of deal may ever come to fruition...
> 
> View attachment 571094


yeah there was JV signed between an indian group and they are lobbying for it..


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## The Eagle

Spectre said:


> Well it would be good for India if Pakistan cannot control Taliban but you guys do have the best relationship with them out of everyone else and thats why you have leverage with US, Russia and Iran.
> 
> Its a fine line to dance along and I can see only benefits if one doesn't get too greedy



For the relationship with Taliban, read your own Ajit Doval for better understanding. It is all about paying them for the works and Pakistan doesn't have much luxury to do so. In fact, we arranged an atmosphere for talks whereby Taliban present their terms & conditions and US is the party on other side of the table whether to agree or disagree. That is simple as a day and everyone does know that what is our participation. Pakistan officially and time & again said it.

Iran does have their own relations with Taliban and doesn't need us at all. Russia got along in the case of Taliban on similar pattern of our links for arrangements of peace talks. Why would Russia just forget India's long standing relationship mere for our leverage of Taliban. 

We have the leverage as we had a working plan as well as beneficial arrangements for the all the parties interested into Afghanistan peace. If anyone else, in-case like India, could have brought something at par or better than Pakistan; we would be seeing a different geopolitics situation at the moment.

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## VCheng

Spectre said:


> The only thing which makes all of this a pipe dream is US congress. No way in hell they are gonna allow sale of advances F-16s but upgrades are possible if Pakistan pays for it on its own dime.



Any and all sales are possible, as long as they serve US national interests. If Pakistan can deliver according to the understandings reached, of course it will get the goodies in return.

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## SQ8

Spectre said:


> House judiciary committee have approached for sealed grand jury papers so that they can start impeachment proceedings. Ofcourse it wouldnt be successful cause of Senate but the wheels are turning.
> 
> Tell me do you seriously think US Congress is gonna side with Trump if he approves new F-16s or they gonna fight him? The way things are going if Trump says Day, Congress would say night.
> 
> Bypassing Congress requires Veto and there are different levels to it. Lets see if Trump is gonna pay the price


Still wont move forward. Congress doesn’t have to side with Trump for this to happen. It just has to be a stalled vote. 

Let’s put it this way, the US wants the balance seen on the 27th. That is in their favor, whether Abhinandan or you like it or not.

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## ziaulislam

Spectre said:


> If you think about it a little more deeply, Trump is a tool who doesn't have an original thought in his brain. He vomits whatever is fed to him by Fox News or his family and friends like Kushner and inc. Obviously there are lot of inputs from some very influential lobbies like Saudis.
> 
> On the other hand he is deeply suspicious of State Dept and Pentagon which usually gives policy advise on issues such as FMS so any thing said by them will have a counter effect and pushes him more towards Pakistan.
> 
> He is all for short term optics and an exit from Afganistan gives him lot of brownie points so he can pay more than what is norm if Pakistan manages to create an illusion of delivery the actual mechanics be damned.
> 
> The only thing which makes all of this a pipe dream is US congress. No way in hell they are gonna allow sale of advances F-16s but upgrades are possible if Pakistan pays for it on its own dime.
> 
> Its a harsh reality but an upgraded F-16 even to block 52 standard posses a clear and present danger to India let alone one upgraded V standard


where do you live ?
..trump being reelected is done deal since there is no strong opposition against him..economy has been stimulated and he has proven most people wrong..most of corporations are happy with him and his opponents are too radicle to be reelected..i mean medicare for all?..give 1000$ universal income..thats not going to be easy to swallow

republicans still have majority in the senate who nothing can pass without them

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## Spectre

The Eagle said:


> For the relationship with Taliban, read your own Ajit Doval for better understanding. It is all about paying them for the works and Pakistan doesn't have much luxury to do so. In fact, we arranged an atmosphere for talks whereby Taliban present their terms & conditions and US is the party on other side of the table whether to agree or disagree. That is simple as a day and everyone does know that what is our participation. Pakistan officially and time & again said it.
> 
> Iran does have their own relations with Taliban and doesn't need us at all. Russia got along in the case of Taliban on similar pattern of our links for arrangements of peace talks. Why would Russia just forget India's long standing relationship mere for our leverage of Taliban.
> 
> We have the leverage as we had a working plan as well as beneficial arrangements for the all the parties interested into Afghanistan peace. If anyone else, in-case like India, could have brought something at par or better than Pakistan; we would be seeing a different geopolitics situation at the moment.



Lets get real. Are you really saying Pakistan is just providing a conference room and a plan? 

Whatever plan you can think of others can do better and I think Gulf countries would provide much better amenities.

If Pakistan wasn't there for Taliban through thick and thin, they would have long since vanished in dusts of history and for that they are grateful and you have substantial capital with them. Something none of the other countries have as India, Russia and Iran all had ties to their opposing parties like Northern Alliance. Sure we work with them but they don't trust us one bit. 

Just be happy and enjoy it!


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## mingle

Spectre said:


> Even if it is not for humanitarian reasons but cold realpolitik, Peace in Afghanistan benefits everyone.
> 
> One may not know this but even India has working relationship with Taliban and we do a lot of transactions with them with regards to safe passage for our convoys. A peaceful Afghanistan is good for business and would cut down on opium trade as well which is more of a menace to India than jihadis
> 
> 
> 
> Check again. Thanks


U need to check stop being Naive thanks


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## ziaulislam

anyway IK honey potted Nancy as much as he did trump..

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## Spectre

Oscar said:


> Still wont move forward. Congress doesn’t have to side with Trump for this to happen. It just has to be a stalled vote.
> 
> Let’s put it this way, the US wants the balance seen on the 27th. That is in their favor, whether Abhinandan or you like it or not.



I agree with the balance part. In any case its win win for US as long as we keep fighting and biting

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## SQ8

Spectre said:


> Lets get real. Are you really saying Pakistan is just providing a conference room and a plan?
> 
> Whatever plan you can think of others can do better and I think Gulf countries would provide much better amenities.
> 
> If Pakistan wasn't there for Taliban through thick and thin, they would have long since vanished in dusts of history and for that they are grateful and you have substantial capital with them. Something none of the other countries have as India, Russia and Iran all had ties to their opposing parties like Northern Alliance. Sure we work with them but they don't trust us one bit.
> 
> Just be happy and enjoy it!


Posting the most pessimistic scenarios for Pakistan wont change what is happening. Despite your clearly expressed angst with it, your country’s attempt at “isolation” and all the other fascist tripe has fallen flat on its face

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## ziaulislam

Spectre said:


> Lets get real. Are you really saying Pakistan is just providing a conference room and a plan?
> 
> Whatever plan you can think of others can do better and I think Gulf countries would provide much better amenities.
> 
> If Pakistan wasn't there for Taliban through thick and thin, they would have long since vanished in dusts of history and for that they are grateful and you have substantial capital with them. Something none of the other countries have as India, Russia and Iran all had ties to their opposing parties like Northern Alliance. Sure we work with them but they don't trust us one bit.
> 
> Just be happy and enjoy it!


go and read the real problem in afghanistan..ethnic differences between pushton, hazaras, tajiks and uzbeks and than come back

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## SQ8

Spectre said:


> I agree with the balance part. In any case its win win for US as long as we keep fighting and biting


Not anymore, the US wants China out of the game and it is not focusing on getting us in their camp so we become less inclined to partake in any sides during a potential future conflict.

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## Spectre

ziaulislam said:


> where do you live ?
> ..trump being reelected is done deal since there is no strong opposition against him..economy has been stimulated and he has proven most people wrong..most of corporations are happy with him and his opponents are too radicle to be reelected..i mean medicare for all?..give 1000$ universal income..thats not going to be easy to swallow
> 
> republicans still have majority in the senate who nothing can pass without them



we will see. Trump does have a chance considering he controls the Supreme Court by virtue of 5-4 majority and any split is gonna go in his favor but if Democrats manage to select a good candidate trump is done for


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## ziaulislam

Spectre said:


> we will see. Trump does have a chance considering he controls the Supreme Court by virtue of 5-4 majority and any split is gonna go in his favor but if Democrats manage to select a good candidate trump is done for


there isnt one...as i said too many radicales..
senate is theirs too ...democrats are too much divided on issues and if lobbying done pakistan can get it bills passed..(which was lacking before)

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## The Eagle

Spectre said:


> Lets get real. Are you really saying Pakistan is just providing a conference room and a plan?
> 
> Whatever plan you can think of others can do better and I think Gulf countries would provide much better amenities.
> 
> If Pakistan wasn't there for Taliban through thick and thin, they would have long since vanished in dusts of history and for that they are grateful and you have substantial capital with them. Something none of the other countries have as India, Russia and Iran all had ties to their opposing parties like Northern Alliance. Sure we work with them but they don't trust us one bit.
> 
> Just be happy and enjoy it!



You have been working with them but they don't trust you, is the key to bring a working plan in this regard. You are proving Doval a liar who himself is on record that such people only works for money. You read it wrong that Pakistan is just providing a conference room and a plan.... I said, an atmosphere for the talks with plan which is beneficial for all the involved parties. 

Not just us been there through Taliban's thin & thin but in-fact, whatever they are using today & the way they were supported; it wasn't possible without US. Do not ignore that Taliban used to visit Washington once and had good times. They were once the blue eyed boys for US and Good People. 

It is all about playing the strategic games with right moves, on the right time and with greater cause for the yourself, the people around you and everyone else. Like a win win strategy which Delhi failed to offer and that is the conclusion. You can discuss peace talks the way you think but for India, the train has left. The deals will come in and so the goodies, as long as everything went as per plan. 

Be it Block-70 or 72 upgrade or some other stuff, the dealing is always depending upon either the money or some working plan as beneficial for both parties. Even US State Department mentioned that FMS support for Pakistan's F-16 wouldn't imbalance the regional power. That was witnessed on 27th Feb hence, they will never want it to be imbalanced. I had to copy half from OScar and that is how it is viewed in fact.

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## Spectre

Oscar said:


> Not anymore, the US wants China out of the game and it is not focusing on getting us in their camp so we become less inclined to partake in any sides during a potential future conflict.



You never know. What if US makes you an offer you can't refuse? Not like it hasn't happened before, even the commando bowed his head. 

One can laugh at and belittle US but the fact remains it carries the biggest stick and the tastiest of all carrots. No one comes close enough.

Might of US when it gets its act together is terrifying, Even today Modi has to tuck his tails and say Yes if the US President calls him at 3 AM tells him that he is either with us or against us. I am not ashamed to admit this. We can't deal with US fleets at our shores and an comprehensive economic blockade like that of Iran and NK and nor do we want to. We are too comfortable with our way of life to be risking it all. 

Thats the burden of being weak in this world.


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## airmarshal

So much day dreaming here on this thread. Can someone please confirm how did this come about that we are getting latest F-16s?



VCheng said:


> Any and all sales are possible, as long as they serve US national interests. If Pakistan can deliver according to the understandings reached, of course it will get the goodies in return.



Ahem! Pakistan did deliver at the end of fist Afghan war. In return it got sanctioned. So dont rely too much on Americans. But this time geopolitics in the region is different. With Russia getting closer and China already a deep strategic partner, Pakistan will be too important a country to lose. Especially after end of a long American engagement in Afghanistan, American would not want to waste all that effort.


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## WAJsal

Spectre said:


> Even if it is not for humanitarian reasons but cold realpolitik, Peace in Afghanistan benefits everyone.
> 
> One may not know this but even India has working relationship with Taliban and we do a lot of transactions with them with regards to safe passage for our convoys. A peaceful Afghanistan is good for business and would cut down on opium trade as well which is more of a menace to India than jihadis
> 
> 
> 
> Check again. Thanks


Good point, I think this is the only chance we're gonna have in a long time to achieve some sort of peace in Afghanistan. I doubt the government in Kabul wants to negotiate, they don't want to give up power, who would really. Anyways, if this fails we might as well build a wall on our border.

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## Spectre

The Eagle said:


> You have been working with them but they don't trust you, is the key to bring a working plan in this regard. You are proving Doval a liar who himself is on record that such people only works for money. You read it wrong that Pakistan is just providing a conference room and a plan.... I said, an atmosphere for the talks with plan which is beneficial for all the involved parties.
> 
> Not just us been there through Taliban's thin & thin but in-fact, whatever they are using today & the way they were supported; it wasn't possible without US. Do not ignore that Taliban used to visit Washington once and had good times. They were once the blue eyed boys for US and Good People.
> 
> It is all about playing the strategic games with right moves, on the right time and with greater cause for the yourself, the people around you and everyone else. Like a win win strategy which Delhi failed to offer and that is the conclusion. You can discuss peace talks the way you think but for India, the train has left. The deals will come in and so the goodies, as long as everything went as per plan.
> 
> Be it Block-70 or 72 upgrade or some other stuff, the dealing is always depending upon either the money or some working plan as beneficial for both parties. Even US State Department mentioned that FMS support for Pakistan's F-16 wouldn't imbalance the regional power. That was witnessed on 27th Feb hence, they will never want it to be imbalanced. I had to copy half from OScar and that is how it is viewed in fact.



First of all Ajit Doval is a man who over reaches himself. You Pakistanis give him too much credit, he will retire soon and fade away just like any other cog in the machine. 

Rest of your post i agree with

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## mqur1963

we already have 650+aamraam

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## YeBeWarned

imadul said:


> Can Pakistan F-16 and purported new BLK 70/72 can intercept Israel AF? Would IFF designate them as????
> @Khafee @Starlord @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @HRK or any other expert, pro.



@Oscar @gambit can give you answer for your questions .


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## VCheng

airmarshal said:


> Pakistan did deliver at the end of fist Afghan war. In return it got sanctioned. So dont rely too much on Americans. But this time geopolitics in the region is different. With Russia getting closer and China already a deep strategic partner, Pakistan will be too important a country to lose.



That is the difference between transactional and strategic relationships, that is all. It is up to Pakistan to make the most of its transactional relationship with USA while betting its future to a strategic relationship with an ever-rising China. After all, how much longer can it be till China builds something better than an F-35 (or even -22)?

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## Dubious

Nilgiri said:


> Mr "call lockheed to ask" himself
> 
> I worked certain defense projects in aerospace sector, I have met people in the know....and people can simply see for themselves if any such F-16 acquisition is announced. Simple. You have got them all excited for some forum echo chamber drama yet again....as you put it "voices in the head" (but your case lol).
> 
> BTW you were quite fairly banned. I know you are seriously smarting from no action taken against Iran after braying for it endlessly.


mocking another member ...I thought we dont shoot msgrs? I believe you have reported some members for shooting the msgr attitudes?!



Nilgiri said:


> BTW you were quite fairly banned. I know you are seriously smarting from no action taken against Iran after braying for it endlessly.


off topic not needed...why you falling so low for a low punch?

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## The Eagle

Spectre said:


> First of all Ajit Doval is a man who over reaches himself. You Pakistanis give him too much credit, he will retire soon and fade away just like any other cog in the machine.



This is not about the credit but the man himself is the producer & handler of people like Kalbhushan and also, spy chief of India being widely regarded by every Indian in grudge & hate of Pakistan. As per our view, an adversary is not credited rather kept under Radar for everything he says or does. The man who designed Modi's career and a failed design of Indian superiority in the region. Just that he has been on record in regard to Taliban which does not fit your opinion, does not mean to downplay him. 

Regards,

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

We'll have to wait and see.

Rationally speaking, for the PAF, the F-16 Block-72 is the most plausible outcome as an interim until Project Azm.

It's the same airframe, engine, etc. as the Block-52, but with an AESA radar and new avionics. So for the most part, the Block-72 would re-use the PAF's existing logistics/maintenance infrastructure.

Moreover, thanks to Bahrain, Morocco, Slovakia, etc, the F-16 will also remain in production for a while, so the PAF has some time to decide (or to put it more accurately, come up with the money).

For around $5 bn you can probably get 18 new Block-72s plus 60-76 update kits for the existing F-16 fleet; build out a fleet of nearly 100 AESA radar-equipped F-16s.

However, that's a colossal ask, we are talking about giving national funds over to the US; so unless there's aid or subsidies, it's a tough ask. Remember, the PAF and PA both walked away from their Vipers over the suspension of CSF/FMF. On the other hand, if the US extends an EXIM loan, that might change things.

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## araz

Riz said:


> Its look like SU-30mki pilots seat..


No that one would be red not black.
A


Trailer23 said:


> So that would bring the upgrade of each Block 52 to Block 72 around $41 Million...
> 
> PAF has 18 Block 52's in its inventory, so they'd cost...$745 Million (give or take).
> 
> So what kind of upgrade can we get for a mere $125 Million...?


This is not related to what you think. This is maintenance of end user agreement. So persistent


WAJsal said:


> I think it would be good for Pak if we can use this to our advantage and be the main influencer in Afghanistan. Add to this the US assistance, and peace in this region would also help; but I think the Afghan govt would create hurdles for both the US and Pak. Interesting to see what happens.


Would they if they were included in the arrangement. Pak has to impress on the Talibans to have a stable government till the elections occur in Afghanistan. The elections will probably give the Talibans the result they seek whoch is why this might work. It is a more patient route and thereal issue is not having an entity to discuss the finer points of governmental setup with. 
A

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## The Terminator

mingle said:


> U guys not getting the point Americans believe current Pak Govt is best bet for them to secure whole region Pak and Afghanistan. Deal will happen Taliban can't fight another 18 yrs along US too all Americans wants bases nothing more which I believe they will get eventually from Talibs. Because any new Govt in Afghanistan needs money and foreign support and without US help it's not possible.


And with the presence of US bases and US support there would be no chance for Taliban to comeback in power unless US acknowledges Taliban as being legitimate Govt. Of Afghansitan. And suppose even if it happens then questions would arise then what was the US agenda of starting this war in its first place?? So US would never acknowledge or support Afghan Taliban control or their Govt in Afghanistan. And the 1st and foremost condition of Afghan Taliban to be on discussion table is complete withdrawal of NATO forces if it's not accepted there would be no peace treaty or truce from Taliban side. If US accepts this condition then its bye bye for ever for US, NATO allies influence from the region specifically Afghanistan and the vacuum of power on comprehensive US withdrawal would be filled with another civil war and Taliban are still the most powerful group to again claim the throne. The only possible thing US can obtain from Pakistan is a temporary truce at the condition of swift and comprehensive NATO withdrawal with Pakistan overlooking the matters afterwards on behalf of US. Safe US troops exit without significant casualties of their soldiers and perhaps establishment of diplomatic relations with new Afghan setup which will be most probably Afghan Taliban controlled.
Other than that Afghans are native residents there and they may fight for ever in this endless war until the opressor, the invader draws down completely or get annihilated but NATO/US can't do it and would never wish to do it.

The current setup of indian fed and trained ANA, NDS, is unacceptable to both Pakistan and the Afghan Taliban. And they are the two stakeholders of this region who are to be here for ever not the US or NATO as its Afghanistan, its our neighborhood our backyard. Hey trump It's not Mexico.


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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We'll have to wait and see.
> 
> Rationally speaking, for the PAF, the F-16 Block-72 is the most plausible outcome as an interim until Project Azm.
> 
> It's the same airframe, engine, etc. as the Block-52, but with an AESA radar and new avionics. So for the most part, the Block-72 would re-use the PAF's existing logistics/maintenance infrastructure.
> 
> Moreover, thanks to Bahrain, Morocco, Slovakia, etc, the F-16 will also remain in production for a while, so the PAF has some time to decide (or to put it more accurately, come up with the money).
> 
> For around $5 bn you can probably get 18 new Block-72s plus 60-76 update kits for the existing F-16 fleet; build out a fleet of nearly 100 AESA radar-equipped F-16s.
> 
> However, that's a colossal ask, we are talking about giving national funds over to the US; so unless there's aid or subsidies, it's a tough ask. Remember, the PAF and PA both walked away from their Vipers over the suspension of CSF/FMF. On the other hand, if the US extends an EXIM loan, that might change things.



Allow me to say that don't you think US wouldn't imbalance the number of AESA equipped Vipers of PAF as compare to like 36 Rafales for IAF in start? Beside the economic constraint, if the deal sees the light of day, the number game will also be kept in view for PAF v/s IAF, as per US policy. 

However, there is possibility of an AESA upgrade for PAF or new Airframes, except for the numbers to say for the time being, because we are already going to have AESA in form of JF-17 Block-III. The US could have considered the PAF request as per this development along side the Rafale making it to India.

Just wanted to ask for further opinion.


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## Spectre

The Eagle said:


> This is not about the credit but the man himself is the producer & handler of people like Kalbhushan and also, spy chief of India being widely regarded by every Indian in grudge & hate of Pakistan. As per our view, an adversary is not credited rather kept under Radar for everything he says or does. The man who designed Modi's career and a failed design of Indian superiority in the region. Just that he has been on record in regard to Taliban which does not fit your opinion, does not mean to downplay him.
> 
> Regards,



You don't understand India. Ajit Doval is good but not that good. Its you people who have given him a halo of mastermind. Just like we do to Hafeez Saeed, Lakhvi and Azhar. He does make for good Indian villain. 

Infact in India most of the spies are bumbling bureaucrats who are in reality fat uncles. They dont do actual legwork and just buy information on international black markets and then get their medals and glory. Doval was just one of those uncles a little bit smarter than others. 

As for the harm done to Pakistan - I dont know what to say about it because we simply don't have any evidence. Lets for a moment believe Doval paid those guys to do boom boom in Pakistan, how is it any different from you guys Paying mujahideens to do the same in Afghanistan in which thousands of innocents Afghan died and still die today. Any different from Khalistanis which you sponsored who killed thousands in Indian Punjab?

I am sorry but that is just how the world works - what goes around, comes around. 

Not that I am saying we did pay them, just speaking in hypotheticals.


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## mingle

The Terminator said:


> And with the presence of US bases and US support there would be no chance for Taliban to comeback in power unless US acknowledges Taliban as being legitimate Govt. Of Afghansitan. And suppose even if it happens then questions would arise then what was the US agenda of starting this war in its first place?? So US would never acknowledge or support Afghan Taliban control or their Govt in Afghanistan. And the 1st and foremost condition of Afghan Taliban to be on discussion table is complete withdrawal of NATO forces if it's not accepted there would be no peace treaty or truce from Taliban side. If US accepts this condition then its bye bye for ever for US, NATO allies influence from the region specifically Afghanistan and the vacuum of power on comprehensive US withdrawal would be filled with another civil war and Taliban are still the most powerful group to again claim the throne. The only possible thing US can obtain from Pakistan is a temporary truce at condition of swift and comprehensive NATO withdrawal with Pakistan overlooking the matters afterwards on behalf of US. Safe US troops exit without significant casualties of their soldiers and perhaps establishment diplomatic relations with new Afghan setup which is most probably Afghan Taliban controlled.


Time has changed Sir deal is always bargain give and take next Afghan Govt that includes Talibs needs international support money. My take is American only interest in Bagram base may khandahar too let's see


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## The Eagle

Spectre said:


> You don't understand India. Ajit Doval is good but not that good. Its you people who have given him a halo of mastermind. Just like we do to Hafeez Saeed, Lakhvi and Azhar. He does make for good Indian villain.
> 
> Infact in India most of the spies are bumbling bureaucrats who are in reality fat uncles. They dont do actual legwork and just buy information on international black markets and then get their medals and glory. Doval was just one of those uncles a little bit smarter than others.
> 
> As for the harm done to Pakistan - I dont know what to say about it because we simply don't have any evidence. Lets for a moment believe Doval paid those guys to do boom boom in Pakistan, how is it any different from you guys Paying mujahideens to do the same in Afghanistan in which thousands of innocents Afghan died and still die today. Any different from Khalistanis which you sponsored who killed thousands in Indian Punjab?
> 
> I am sorry but that is just how the world works - what goes around, comes around.
> 
> Not that I am saying we did pay them, just speaking in hypotheticals.



The discussion is already concluded and you have just reached to the point of blames and be the victim & innocent on other hand. There are no thanks for the same.

You are bringing subject after another merely to go on tirade of blaming Pakistan. Finally, my advise is to keep up with India towing lines and spare this thread. You have nothing to offer new or concrete except for the ZeeMedia & Arnab type victim card. That doesn't even make sense for a starter and argue on the basis of academic findings. We don't have that luxury to sponsor that much and it is the famous India lines of Pakistan being economically crashed and lives on the loans.

Regards,

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## The Terminator

mingle said:


> Time has changed Sir deal is always bargain give and take next Afghan Govt that includes Talibs needs international support money. My take is American only interest in Bagram base may khandahar too let's see


I have added something to my previous quote. Kindly read #639 again. I think all US want is safe passage may be some influence perhaps would be bonus for them.


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## Spectre

The Eagle said:


> The discussion is already concluded and you have just reached to the point of blames and be the victim & innocent on other hand. There are no thanks for the same.
> 
> You are bringing subject after another merely to go on tirade of blaming Pakistan. Finally, my advise is to keep up with India towing lines and spare this thread. You have nothing to offer new or concrete except for the ZeeMedia & Arnab type victim card. That doesn't even make sense for a starter and argue on the basis of academic findings. We don't have that luxury to sponsor that much and it is the famous India lines of Pakistan being economically crashed and lives on the loans.
> 
> Regards,



Sure  Good Night and Good Luck!


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## Awan68

If this deal is real and actually matirializies then the only plausible explanation for the funds required would simply be provided by the US as CSF funds or something. There is no way Pakistan can pay something north of $5 billion for weapons, atleast not for the next half decade. This can be one of those lemons life gives u in return for resolving the Afghanistan issue.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Eagle said:


> Allow me to say that don't you think US wouldn't imbalance the number of AESA equipped Vipers of PAF as compare to like 36 Rafales for IAF in start? Beside the economic constraint, if the deal sees the light of day, the number game will also be kept in view for PAF v/s IAF, as per US policy.
> 
> However, there is possibility of an AESA upgrade for PAF or new Airframes, except for the numbers to say for the time being, because we are already going to have AESA in form of JF-17 Block-III. The US could have considered the PAF request as per this development along side the Rafale making it to India.
> 
> Just wanted to ask for further opinion.


If they 'solve Kashmir' the balance should be a non-issue.

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## The Terminator

@mingle for you I am reposting the remaining part of my previous reply for your response.
Other than that Afghans are native residents there and they may fight for ever in this endless war until the opressor, the invader draws down completely or get annihilated but NATO/US can't do it and would never wish to do it.

The current setup of indian fed and trained ANA, NDS, is unacceptable to both Pakistan and the Afghan Taliban. And they are the two stakeholders of this region who are to be here for ever not the US or NATO as its Afghanistan, its our neighborhood our backyard. Hey trump It's not Mexico.

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## WAJsal

araz said:


> It is a more patient route and thereal issue is not having an entity to discuss the finer points of governmental setup with.


I think it's all show for the US, Afghan govt doesn't seem to be interested in giving up power. I could be wrong...


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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If they 'solve Kashmir' the balance should be a non-issue.



That is not going to happen, as per their books of profits & earn through conflict. So the concern will remain about sell more in the name of strategic balance in the region, creating more jobs back at home.

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## Dubious

imadul said:


> Let's forgive @MastanKhan . He needs some memory tablets or at least a good supply of almonds


That is not very polite!

Differences aside, never attack another member like that!

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## Trailer23

araz said:


> This is not related to what you think. This is maintenance of end user agreement. So persistent


I'm aware of the End-User Monitoring, my good man.

I was merely enquiring to what the other member had mentioned about upgrading. Not-so persistent...
-T

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## The Terminator

WAJsal said:


> I think it's all show for the US, Afghan govt doesn't seem to be interested in giving up power. I could be wrong...


Do you think current Afghan Govt is anything in comparison to Afghan Taliban, US or Pakistan? I don't think so. Afghan Govt setup had always been on ventilator with US 'medical doses' have kept it alive so far. What card they have to play against other powerful stake holders! What would be current Afghan Govt with zero US support? Dead within a week!

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## araz

Trailer23 said:


> I'm aware of the End-User Monitoring, my good man.
> 
> I was merely enquiring to what the other member had mentioned about upgrading. Not-so persistent...
> -T


I think there are too many ferromones flying around at the moment. I think once things cool down we may have to sit back and watch the announcements as they come from the US or Pak sources.
A


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Eagle said:


> That is not going to happen, as per their books of profits & earn through conflict. So the concern will remain about sell more in the name of strategic balance in the region, creating more jobs back at home.


If anything, ~100 F-16Vs (new + upgraded) in Pakistan might push India to purchase more things from the US. IIRC the Indian Navy will need a new carrier fighter, and the Super Hornet is one of the options.

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## araz

WAJsal said:


> I think it's all show for the US, Afghan govt doesn't seem to be interested in giving up power. I could be wrong...


You cannot give what you dont have. What Ashraf Ghani wants more than anyrhing is legitimacy within the Taliban setup. The agreement might give him that in exchange for elections in 12-18 months after formation of a national coalition Govtt. This remains my point of view.
A

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## TsAr

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Jiya Bhutto.... I meant Khafee....

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## The Terminator

Current Afghan National Army and NDS fed, trained, brainwashed by India is not acceptable to Pakistan. And their armed force can't hold on its own against anyone either Pakistan or Taliban. So the most probably solution of this issue would be to have an open heart surgery of Afghan National Army and NDS, and let the Taliban take favorable position through electoral system and replace the current Govt. Only then this setup can sustain in Afghanistan. And US may withdraw safely and become friends with majority elected Afghan Taliban Govt in future.
But you know, democracy really sucks in this region. God knows better

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## Foxtrot Delta

Armchair said:


> Maybe not a bad idea. If Pak provides services, let them pay in hard cash. Then we can use that cash to buy whatever we want. But problem is PAF only wants F-16s above all else, even the J-20 I suspect.



It is understandable they have 40 years of experiemce with it. Paf even developed air formations and tactics based on that platform soley which no other nation knows about. 

Yet 45 years is a good enough time for 1 aircraft model. I hope they make a transition to something better than f16 block 70 soon.

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## The Terminator

TsAr said:


> Jiya Bhutto.... I meant Khafee....


Yup! bhuto abi b zinda he 



Armchair said:


> Maybe not a bad idea. If Pak provides services, let them pay in hard cash. Then we can use that cash to buy whatever we want. But problem is PAF only wants F-16s above all else, even the J-20 I suspect.


Because as I said earlier our Generals, Air Marshals etc love the cute white a** of US. And both of their eyes are stuck in there and they are nor able neither willing to look anywhere else for weapon systems procurement unless compelled by their own loved one miss US herself through sanctions and embargo from her 
As soon as she smiles towards them, they again pounce at one at her sweet little cute a$$
What a tragedy for Pakistan.

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## Irfan Baloch

Nilgiri said:


> OK so potential-ism thread, got it. Like I said, everyone can just wait and see themselves. I didn't read thru the whole thread, just where someone tagged me and then i looked at the first page and flicked through is all. Everyone is free to carry on. Yes my judgement on the forum quality is my personal one....anyone can agree or disagree.


the story is confirmed now re upgrade of PAF F-16 fleet and announced by the USA 

so he is not talking out of the blue



Spectre said:


> I dont know what promises India made, Unlike Pakistan which has guaranteed a settlement. May be you can point out a relevant news report where GoI has made a commitment to either US or someone else regarding peace or for that matter anything else in Afghanistan except for non military aid.
> 
> As for Pakistan, I hope it delivers it will be good for everyone but with a caveat that Taliban doesn't bite back the hand which feeds them. You can never reason with these kinds as you guys well know..


dont flip it
India came with a lot of claims of friendship and support. apart from some token projects like legislative building and some pampering the Northern alliance war lords India mainly used the land to open cultural centers which doubled as transit and support camps for Baloch Samachar. the move into Afghanistan was with sole purpose of opening anew front on Pakistan, reignite Baloch insurgency and benefit from War on terror chaos.
this couldnt go forever unchecked now that Pakistan has adapted to Indian presence so India is either doubting the peace talks or willing it to fail.

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## SQ8

Starlord said:


> @Oscar @gambit can give you answer for your questions .


IFF interrogation has to occur to designate as friendly or not. Keep IFF in and every target is hostile.



Spectre said:


> You never know. What if US makes you an offer you can't refuse? Not like it hasn't happened before, even the commando bowed his head.
> 
> One can laugh at and belittle US but the fact remains it carries the biggest stick and the tastiest of all carrots. No one comes close enough.
> 
> Might of US when it gets its act together is terrifying, Even today Modi has to tuck his tails and say Yes if the US President calls him at 3 AM tells him that he is either with us or against us. I am not ashamed to admit this. We can't deal with US fleets at our shores and an comprehensive economic blockade like that of Iran and NK and nor do we want to. We are too comfortable with our way of life to be risking it all.
> 
> Thats the burden of being weak in this world.


The commando was/is a pussy cat.

But as the Kaptaan said it, there is no way around being in the good books of the United States.

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## Irfan Baloch

araz said:


> You cannot give what you dont have. What Ashraf Ghani wants more than anyrhing is legitimacy within the Taliban setup. The agreement might give him that in exchange for elections in 12-18 months after formation of a national coalition Govtt. This remains my point of view.
> A


I hope they meet in a middle ground 
it is claimed that Taliban are now more accommodating and realistic 
I hope its true
entities like TTP, BLA and Daesh and their handlers will want peace to fail. 
the current thread is about potential military sale of F-16s or the upgrade of our present fleet or both.
and it is because of our commitment with USA during our recent visit to America.

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## Winchester

Irfan Baloch said:


> problem with your option is
> for Americans... F 35 and S 400 cant go together
> this is the very reason Americans have banned their NATO ally Turkey and removed from the program. they cant just offer it to India on special concessions.
> in case you were not following the news. Americans contended that S 400 was not just an air defense platform but an intelligence gathering and data collecting system as well and would collect the data on F 35 over time and help Russians build up the necessary counter for the closely guarded stealth technology which is the sum of all the systems that make up that jet both physical and software the sensor f





Longhorn said:


> The Americans have already said that they cannot allow their F35 to coexist in the same arsenal as the S400 where it's weaknesses can be wargames and identified, they have cancelled Turkey's contract in this regard.
> Can someone tell me why they would make an exception in India's case.
> Answers on a postcard please.


 
Solid points. 

I guess I was wrong on the Indian option of going for the F-35 after it has chosen S-400, unless there is an exception.


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## BRAVO_

just like other news one more social media fire work.... few days back everyone was talking against America and were opposing for any new military harderware purchase from them... and here we are over night tables have been turned and America is willing to sell Block 70 ... if someone has a credible news link ?? please mentioned it here but if it is one more fools dreams upon the basis of resumption of F-16s maintenance aid ... then hats off to the dreamer

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## Major Sam

BRAVO_ said:


> just like other news one more social media fire work.... few days back everyone was talking against America and were opposing for any new military harderware purchase from them... and here we are over night tables have been turned and America is willing to sell Block 70 ... if someone has a credible news link ?? please mentioned it here but if it is one more fools dreams upon the basis of resumption of F-16s maintenance aid ... then hats off to the dreamer


@Bratva intentional or unintentional rating?

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## Humble Analyst

Keysersoze said:


> The Moroccans paid 952 million to upgrade their 23 F16s to blk 70.
> 3.7 billion for 25 new builds plus weapons.
> 
> So the sale discussed would be approximately 6-7 billion.


I think this news is planted to entice India to buy US as someone else pointed out in this thread. Hearing Pakistan could get new F16 I dis will get engaged and then they can try to sell with incentives.

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## Keysersoze

Humble Analyst said:


> I think this news is planted to entice India to buy US as someone else pointed out in this thread. Hearing Pakistan could get new F16 I dis will get engaged and then they can try to sell with incentives.


I think the F21 was always a hard sell to india. It will despite the upgrades be an inferior aircraft in the mind of the average Indian, simply because Pakistan operates it. Also the age of the aircraft will play on their minds. I think another 36 Rafales will be purchased. Otherwise look at the potential lineup for the IAF

Su30
Mig21 
Jaguar
Rafale 
M2000
Mig27
Tejas
And then whatever else they purchase. It would be a huge logistics issue getting all the parts.

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## Bratva

Major Sam said:


> @Bratva intentional or unintentional rating?




Totally unintentional. When you are surfing the thread from Mobile. My mistake

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## Thorough Pro

Its not what Afghan government is interested in or not, they have no option its either peace with Taliban or Taliban cut them in to pieces.............just a matter of time, they won't last 90 days after US leaves Afghanistan, Taliban will eat them alive without ketchup




WAJsal said:


> I think it's all show for the US, Afghan govt doesn't seem to be interested in giving up power. I could be wrong...

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## Trailer23

Keysersoze said:


> Otherwise look at the potential lineup for the IAF
> 
> Su30
> Mig21
> Jaguar
> Rafale
> M2000
> Mig27
> Tejas
> And then whatever else they purchase.


The MiG-21 & Jaguar's are on their final frontier. There was that story about them picking up (19) MiG-29's which had been stored since the 80's. I think they got 'em cheap, but yet to be delivered.

Its funny you placed the Tejas at the bottom of the list...as if it doesn't really matter.


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## Ultima Thule

Trailer23 said:


> Its funny you placed the Tejas at the bottom of the list...as if it doesn't really matter.


Tejas is too late for IAF, IAF wants complete product by HAL, that's why Tejas project is too late unlike to our JF-17 project and IAF/IN still not fully satisfied on their Tejas , that's why IAF/IN want to improve the form of MK-1A/MK-2 @Trailer23

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## Ultima Thule

Śakra said:


> As usual pakistaners celebrate prematurely. I hope you enjoyed that fake news.


yes you're right lets wait and see but its not totally fake news, the OP is the professional member here on PDF, might be he had a some insider information @Śakra

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## Trailer23

Śakra said:


> As usual pakistaners celebrate prematurely. I hope you enjoyed that fake news.


And as usual Indian Trollers decide to show up...looking for a reason to get Banned.

Well, your Times of India is already crying about the $125 Million for the F-16 Support Package.

We'll be sure to tag you once the F-16 deal is official.

By the way, where were you when we were Celebrating 27th February?

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## The Eagle

Śakra said:


> fake news.


Rich coming from our neighborhood. Even though, none certified the OP and most agreed to wait for confirmation. How does it became a fake news when it is based upon personal Intel and opinion?

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## Vortex

@Khafee thanks bro for your info and several explainings posts.

I didn’t read all pages yet 

I’ll pray that all you said becomes true quickly insha’Allah.

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## Humble Analyst

Keysersoze said:


> I think the F21 was always a hard sell to india. It will despite the upgrades be an inferior aircraft in the mind of the average Indian, simply because Pakistan operates it. Also the age of the aircraft will play on their minds. I think another 36 Rafales will be purchased. Otherwise look at the potential lineup for the IAF
> 
> Su30
> Mig21
> Jaguar
> Rafale
> M2000
> Mig27
> Tejas
> And then whatever else they purchase. It would be a huge logistics issue getting all the parts.


I understand but this could be a ploy to get India to buy 
Wether India will do it or not.

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## Flight of falcon

Head of ISI was in Washington until yesterday. He stayed behind and was in some serious discussions with the Americans.
Don’t know if has left or still there. 

Today BBC was reporting that the deal between Americans and Talibans is a done deal. Talibans will be meeting Imran and will then start the second phase of negotiations with the Afghan government. 

Basically the Deal is agreed and once sealed will the be told and delivered to the Afghan puppet government. 
Just for a minute think about the pain of Afghanistan’s whores and their InDian masters .

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

The Terminator said:


> Current Afghan National Army and NDS fed, trained, brainwashed by India is not acceptable to Pakistan. And their armed force can't hold on its own against anyone either Pakistan or Taliban. So the most probably solution of this issue would be to have an open heart surgery of Afghan National Army and NDS, and let the Taliban take favorable position through electoral system and replace the current Govt. Only then this setup can sustain in Afghanistan. And US may withdraw safely and become friends with majority elected Afghan Taliban Govt in future.
> But you know, democracy really sucks in this region. God knows better


The USA badly needs Afganistan’s Lithium deposits for the EV batteries and the rare earth metals for the semiconductor industry!!! No ifs and buts - it’s imperative. Especially, during the trade war with China rare earth materials significance came to forefront!!! The US policymakers are ready to go to any length to ensure their steady supply and not letting them fall into the “wrong” hands!!! In the present scenario the Taliban under Pak is the most viable option!!! The rest are all details....

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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> Head of ISI was in Washington until yesterday. He stayed behind and was in some serious discussions with the Americans.
> Don’t know if has left or still there.
> 
> Today BBC was reporting that the deal between Americans and Talibans is a done deal. Talibans will be meeting Imran and will then start the second phase of negotiations with the Afghan government.
> 
> Basically the Deal is agreed and once sealed will the be told and delivered to the Afghan puppet government.
> Just for a minute think about the pain of Afghanistan’s whores and their InDian masters .


Trump visit to Pak will be after deal is signed.i Beleive F16s r known to every one we will see what package will be finalized along other Goodies I believe it would be big one more cobras. CSF money along some money by Govt of Pak will go purchase I won't be surprised if we get PAC 3 along M1A1 tank offer final tally will be above 10 billions my two cents only PAF new and used Airframes along current fleet upgrades will be 6 to 7 billion. Navy wants swift covertts along MPA Jett powered P8 Army wants Max pro we need them badly to minimize human loss at western borders may come from EDA. Lets see fingers crossed

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## imadul

Dubious said:


> That is not very polite!
> 
> Differences aside, never attack another member like that!


Arey bhai, just a bit of humor. I do respect and like MK.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We'll have to wait and see.
> 
> Rationally speaking, for the PAF, the F-16 Block-72 is the most plausible outcome as an interim until Project Azm.
> 
> It's the same airframe, engine, etc. as the Block-52, but with an AESA radar and new avionics. So for the most part, the Block-72 would re-use the PAF's existing logistics/maintenance infrastructure.
> 
> Moreover, thanks to Bahrain, Morocco, Slovakia, etc, the F-16 will also remain in production for a while, so the PAF has some time to decide (or to put it more accurately, come up with the money).
> 
> For around $5 bn you can probably get 18 new Block-72s plus 60-76 update kits for the existing F-16 fleet; build out a fleet of nearly 100 AESA radar-equipped F-16s.
> 
> However, that's a colossal ask, we are talking about giving national funds over to the US; so unless there's aid or subsidies, it's a tough ask. Remember, the PAF and PA both walked away from their Vipers over the suspension of CSF/FMF. On the other hand, if the US extends an EXIM loan, that might change things.


Loans, No. But yes FMS as quid pro quo to facilitate a peaceful US withdrawal from afg with a modicum of victory. If Pindi has done their homework well they should get these free.

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## Cookie Monster

mingle said:


> Trump visit to Pak will be after deal is signed.i Beleive F16s r known to every one we will see what package will be finalized along other Goodies I believe it would be big one more cobras. CSF money along some money by Govt of Pak will go purchase I won't be surprised if we get PAC 3 along M1A1 tank offer final tally will be above 10 billions my two cents only PAF new and used Airframes along current fleet upgrades will be 6 to 7 billion. Navy wants swift covertts along MPA Jett powered P8 Army wants Max pro we need them badly to minimize human loss at western borders may come from EDA. Lets see fingers crossed


Too much u listed here bro...unlikely to happen. Let's just hope this F16 block 70 thing happens. At least the PAF will be up to par to tackle all challenges until NGF is operational. As for PA idk what's the hold up on Al-Khalid II...it's been in development for quite a while. PA needs Al-Khalid II in numbers to phase out some of the older tanks and as for PN...they did go on a shopping spree recently but still they need more IMO to keep up with IN.

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## mingle

mingle said:


> Trump visit to Pak will be after deal is signed.i Beleive F16s r known to every one we will see what package will be finalized along other Goodies I believe it would be big one more cobras. CSF money along some money by Govt of Pak will go purchase I won't be surprised if we get PAC 3 along M1A1 tank offer final tally will be above 10 billions my two cents only PAF new and used Airframes along current fleet upgrades will be 6 to 7 billion. Navy wants swift covertts along MPA Jett powered P8 Army wants Max pro we need them badly to minimize human loss at western borders may come from EDA. Lets see fingers crossed





imadul said:


> Arey bhai, just a bit of humor. I do respect and like MK.
> 
> 
> Loans, No. But yes FMS as quid pro quo to facilitate a peaceful US withdrawal from afg with a modicum of victory. If Pindi has done their homework well they should get these free.


He meant line of credit US should offer US if it's 5 billion that would be wonderful. You know line of credit works its revolving credit given by Bank a certain amount So we can use that line of credit to purchase and pay it back in instalments and Bank takes interest on it but we can reuse it again so basically Bank gave us money and we use it again and again



Cookie Monster said:


> Too much u listed here bro...unlikely to happen. Let's just hope this F16 block 70 thing happens. At least the PAF will be up to par to tackle all challenges until NGF is operational. As for PA idk what's the hold up on Al-Khalid II...it's been in development for quite a while. PA needs Al-Khalid II in numbers to phase out some of the older tanks and as for PN...they did go on a shopping spree recently but still they need more IMO to keep up with IN.


When door opens it opens whole not a bit American attitude towards Gen Bajwa at pentagon and pompe met khan at Pak embassy shows where we stands I also assure u once it finalized it will pass in congress too.

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## Cookie Monster

mingle said:


> When door opens it opens whole not a bit American attitude towards Gen Bajwa at pentagon and pompe met khan at Pak embassy shows where we stands I also assure u once it finalized it will pass in congress too.


And then what? So what if the door is open? Where is Pak going to get the money to purchase all this? Let alone all the things u listed, Pak doesn't even have the full money to outright pay for the block 70 upgrades. If it isn't subsidized or given on line of credit...even this wouldn't materialize. So after this happens...it doesn't matter if the door remains open...there would be no funds to purchase other stuff and Americans aren't about to bank roll everything on Pak's wishlist.

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## Jammer

There is no such thing is as Block 70 coming to Pakistan or up gradation of sorts. Neither has Pakistan requested it.

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## mingle

Cookie Monster said:


> And then what? So what if the door is open? Where is Pak going to get the money to purchase all this? Let alone all the things u listed, Pak doesn't even have the full money to outright pay for the block 70 upgrades. If it isn't subsidized or given on line of credit...even this wouldn't materialize. So after this happens...it doesn't matter if the door remains open...there would be no funds to purchase other stuff and Americans aren't about to bank roll everything on Pak's wishlist.


Cookie CSF is there 9 billions along some money Govt of Pak can add we can get line of credit from US nothing to worry we will get Vipers and other Goodies. Current pentagon budget doesn't have ours CSF share Trump and Pompe said house will pass separate bill to allocate this money to Pak. No worries but it won't happen that they give us and we gave it to Russian weapons.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

imadul said:


> Arey bhai, just a bit of humor. I do respect and like MK.
> 
> 
> Loans, No. But yes FMS as quid pro quo to facilitate a peaceful US withdrawal from afg with a modicum of victory. If Pindi has done their homework well they should get these free.


It’s the Afganistan under the Taliban where the details and the corresponding devils lie!!! The list for the details are too long, and they are commensurate with the goodies Pak is expected to be compensated with....

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## princefaisal

Since Pak-US defence relations are coming back to normal, so priorities should be set based on critical requirement & current financial capabilities. Following steps should be taken immediately with the US approval:

1. Urgent purchase of old F-16s from Jordon or else-where to increase the existing squadrons.

2. Urgent purchase of AIM-9X & V-kits from US for old & MLU F-16s and upgrade/configure them in Turkey, if possible.

3. Upgrade all existing Block-52s to Block-70 versions.

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## messiach

official source?



Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!

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## Dazzler

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to





Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



You should be banned permanently if this turns out to be a farce. Playing with sentiments of 220 million should come at a cost.

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## Water Car Engineer

Keysersoze said:


> I think the F21 was always a hard sell to india. It will despite the upgrades be an inferior aircraft in the mind of the average Indian, simply because Pakistan operates it. Also the age of the aircraft will play on their minds. I think another 36 Rafales will be purchased. Otherwise look at the potential lineup for the IAF
> 
> Su30
> Mig21
> Jaguar
> Rafale
> M2000
> Mig27
> Tejas
> And then whatever else they purchase. It would be a huge logistics issue getting all the parts.



F21 is a part of the MII program which Rafale is now not a part of. Rafales are just being bought off French line.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well if we get new *45 , F16 Block 70* , that would be a massive news

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## Ultima Thule

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well if we get new *45 , F16 Block 70* , that would be a massive news


Why not 200 @AZADPAKISTAN2009

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## mingle

princefaisal said:


> Since Pak-US defence relations are coming back to normal, so priorities should be set based on critical requirement & current financial capabilities. Following steps should be taken immediately with the US approval:
> 
> 1. Urgent purchase of old F-16s from Jordon or else-where to increase the existing squadrons.
> 
> 2. Urgent purchase of AIM-9X & V-kits from US for old & MLU F-16s and upgrade/configure them in Turkey, if possible.
> 
> 3. Upgrade all existing Block-52s to Block-70 versions.


I Doubt TAI will do this time due to mood of trump administration and current irritants between two nations.if All went well this time it should be done in Pak by LM and Grummans just upgrading whole fleet would be around 3 billion or more Make America great again means for US companies and by US companies.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well if we get new *45 , F16 Block 70* , that would be a massive news


We can its up to PAF before earthquake 2005 actual number for blk 52 was 75 ended up 18 let's see.

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## imadul

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> It’s the Afganistan under the Taliban where the details and the corresponding devils lie!!! The list for the details are too long, and they are commensurate with the goodies Pak is expected to be compensated with....


Hope pindi wont sell cheap this time.
Would Afganistan not have a 4th grave?

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## CodeforFood

mingle said:


> Trump visit to Pak will be after deal is signed.i Beleive F16s r known to every one we will see what package will be finalized along other Goodies I believe it would be big one more cobras. CSF money along some money by Govt of Pak will go purchase I won't be surprised if we get PAC 3 along M1A1 tank offer final tally will be above 10 billions my two cents only PAF new and used Airframes along current fleet upgrades will be 6 to 7 billion. Navy wants swift covertts along MPA Jett powered P8 Army wants Max pro we need them badly to minimize human loss at western borders may come from EDA. Lets see fingers crossed


While we are at it, lets add the aircraft career here as well. What's the harm eh?

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## gambit

imadul said:


> Can Pakistan F-16 and purported new BLK 70/72 can intercept Israel AF? Would IFF designate them as????
> @Khafee @Starlord @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @HRK or any other expert, pro.


Many IFF codes are unique, not 'universal', meaning a 'friend' code for US is not the same as a 'friend' code from Britain which is not the same as from Germany which is not the same as from France, and so on. If Britain want to let US know that British fighters are 'friendly', then Britain will have to let US know that code so we can add it into our list of 'friends'. Same for Germans and French and so on.

- An IFF interrogator signal is transmitted.

- Assuming the response is automatic, an IFF response signal is transmitted.

- The interrogator compares the response against a library of 'friends'.

When I was active duty, I have seen a response that ended up with an F-16 from my own squadron ended up as 'foe'. It turned out to be a bad IFF component. IFF codes are top secret and can be changed even from hr to hr, if necessary.

Civilian IFF codes are pretty much 'universal', meaning every country agreed upon a preset signal that identifies an aircraft as 'civilian'. One of these 'universal' mode is altitude: Mode C. This mean when an aircraft, military or civilian, is interrogated, the automatic response contains just the pressure altitude. Mode C is more for air control traffic assistance.

The interrogator signal determines the response.

- Q: What is your tail number (Mode 2) and altitude (Mode C)?

- A: 15,000 ft.

Now we have an incomplete IFF response. You are supposed to tell me your tail number and altitude but I get only altitude. You maybe designated as 'foe'. The reason it is 'maybe a foe' instead of 'definitely a foe' is because possibly your IFF system is not equipped to respond with unique aircraft identifiers like tail number or class of aircraft (heavy). Mode 2 code is reserved for military. Mode C is 'universal'.

If a military query received only a civilian type of response, we will assign the respondent as civilian -- for now. If the area is a conflict zone, then there will be serious problems with incomplete responses, perhaps even ended up with catastrophic problems.

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## Imran Khan

Dazzler said:


> You should be banned permanently if this turns out to be a farce. Playing with sentiments of 220 million should come at a cost.


i am not in those 220 millions sir .hope its false news

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## mingle

CodeforFood said:


> While we are at it, lets add the aircraft career here as well. What's the harm eh?


We will park it at Karachi port and play cricket at the Deck


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## BRAVO_

Imran Khan said:


> i am not in those 220 millions sir .hope its false news


Exactly sir .. my first statement was also the same ... but enough fruit for thoughts for keyboard warriors and for F-16 fan club... and they will calm down upon the next negative statement of US ... until then show must go on

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## Cookie Monster

Dazzler said:


> You should be banned permanently if this turns out to be a farce. Playing with sentiments of 220 million should come at a cost.


If other members can promise us things from Scar to Su35s and get away with it...then @Khafee can do so as well

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## mingle

Cookie Monster said:


> If other members can promise us things from Scar to Su35s and get away with it...then @Khafee can do so as well


Scar went on trial in Pak Su 35 was on card but after 27 Feb I don't think it's viable neither PAF thinks Scar is off due to Economic reasons


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## Dazzler

Imran Khan said:


> i am not in those 220 millions sir .hope its false news



I never included you.

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## jupiter2007

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well if we get new *45 , F16 Block 70* , that would be a massive news



If this a fake news this guy should be banned for life. 

Army Chief left USA yesterday but there was leak information about new F-16s. Old one might be a possibility.... 
6 months ago I predicted that Pak-USA relationship will improve after July 2019 and it’s coming true. 25 mile restrictions on Pakistani Embbacy personals will also be removed in next few months.


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## Fieldmarshal

I dont understand u ppl, u are making it sound like their was a restriction/ sanction placed on Pakistan by the u.s. while in reality their never was or is any restrictions on purchasing any u.s made weaponry to begin with.
The only point of contention was that the u.s govt. Was unwilling to finance it through csf.
So now wt has changed is the fact that they be willing to pay our 9 billion stuck as payable under csf.
N the fleebaggers instead of handing the cash will give us mostly second hand junk from afg along with a few f16 which may or may not be delivered.

We all need to understand that wt Pak needed the most at this time was hard cash to help revive our eco. As once we revive our eco. We can go n buy any thing from any one.
One example of this being a short lived is the fact that the first thing that our Govt. Asked of the amricans is the rescheduling of loans from the Paris club which the Americans refused.

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## War Thunder

loanranger said:


> So our f16s cannot carry nukes then?



Why do we need Chinese having access to enable something to carry nukes? Nukes are not some sophisticated gadget. They are a bomb just like other bombs carried by a jet, and released as any bomb is except this one needs more precaution and evasive maneuvers after release.
And why do we need to modify any jet to carry home made bombs?



Bratva said:


> The wounds of AH-1Z Vipers being held back are still fresh. American denying turkey the engines for Pakistan ATAK-129 deal. Many considered that a done deal as well . And now a new lollipop is in offing. At this point, it is like building castles in the sky. No idea why people post such news which has zero percent chance of happening in the future.






0% chance?
Probability and data work differently where ever you are?


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## Fieldmarshal

Another thing the mlu was originally suppose to be performed at kamra but Turks went behind our backs and convinced the Americans to do it in turkey.

So things aren't as rosey or bleak as we make them out to be

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## TheTallGuy

@Khafee @zulu @Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @RIWWIR 
Good Day Gentlemen,
"Victory has many fathers...defeat is orphan"

Ever wondered why sudden change in US Policy? those who believe we are getting the F-16s because of Afghan-Taliban-US resolution is not entirely true. what i have deduced its because of operational performance of PAF and there is an ace which PAF holds. (2 x Israeli Pilots)

actual number should be 36 F-16C/D Block 72 (24 charlies and 12 x Delta) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ (12 x Charlie and 6 x Delta) That is 54 aircraft.

2 x israeli pilots = 54 x F-16s Vipers..(36 x new, 18 x upgrades)

Enjoy the monsoon!



RIWWIR said:


> Sir Jee: Please don't tag @TheTallGuy. He may come up with another 8 down, making a total tally of 16.



No friend! why would i increase? its 8 kills (3 x Su-30MKI, 2 x Mirage 2000, 3 x MiG-21BISON) on 27th Feb 19.

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## MastanKhan

TheTallGuy said:


> @Khafee @zulu @Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @RIWWIR
> Good Day Gentlemen,
> "Victory has many fathers...defeat is orphan"
> 
> Ever wondered why sudden change in US Policy? those who believe we are getting the F-16s because of Afghan-Taliban-US resolution is not entirely true. what i have deduced its because of operational performance of PAF and there is an ace which PAF holds. (2 x Israeli Pilots)
> 
> actual number should be 36 F-16C/D Block 72 (24 charlies and 12 x Delta) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ (12 x Charlie and 6 x Delta) That is 54 aircraft.
> 
> 2 x israeli pilots = 54 x F-16s Vipers..(36 x new, 18 x upgrades)
> 
> Enjoy the monsoon!
> 
> 
> 
> No friend! why would i increase? its 8 kills (3 x Su-30MKI, 2 x Mirage 2000, 3 x MiG-21BISON) on 27th Feb 19.



Hi,

Thank you for opening up another can of worms---and I love it---. It is just like the monsoon rains in punjab---.

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## TheTallGuy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for opening up another can of worms---and I love it---. It is just like the monsoon rains in punjab---.



Sir Jee, they wanted them early Apr-May but thank Allah Some one had spine...and were able to hold!

After This Deal wait for the remaining 1 x Indian encashment

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## MastanKhan

TheTallGuy said:


> @Khafee @zulu @Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @RIWWIR
> Good Day Gentlemen,
> "Victory has many fathers...defeat is orphan"
> 
> Ever wondered why sudden change in US Policy? those who believe we are getting the F-16s because of Afghan-Taliban-US resolution is not entirely true. what i have deduced its because of operational performance of PAF and there is an ace which PAF holds. (2 x Israeli Pilots)
> 
> actual number should be 36 F-16C/D Block 72 (24 charlies and 12 x Delta) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ (12 x Charlie and 6 x Delta) That is 54 aircraft.
> 
> 2 x israeli pilots = 54 x F-16s Vipers..(36 x new, 18 x upgrades)
> 
> Enjoy the monsoon!.



Hi,

And I think I was just talking today---we don't need an ill will towards Israel---and I am correct.

And if what you say is correct---then all I can say is 'be thankful to the mercy and benevolence of Allah---because the Lord does give in strange ways'---.

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## Hayreddin

The Eagle said:


> However, there is possibility of an AESA upgrade for PAF or new Airframes, except for the numbers to say for the time being, because we are already going to have AESA in form of JF-17 Block-III. The US could have considered the PAF request as per this development along side the Rafale making it to India


Its not about rafale at all ,its all about your geography my Dear Geography 



Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Thanks @Khafee for making our day....
This is what i revealed in my previous posts during IK US visit tht F16 upgrade plus new ones is on the table but how much they get it . Only time will tell :

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## TheTallGuy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> And I think I was just talking today---we don't need an ill will towards Israel---and I am correct.



We have ill will ...dont think otherwise! but we have a bigger fish to fry

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## loanranger

War Thunder said:


> They are a bomb just like other bombs carried by a jet, and released as any bomb is except this one needs more precaution and evasive maneuvers after release.
> And why do we need to modify any jet to carry home made bombs?


 I hope you don’t want the nuke to detonate as soon as it is released from the jet.So you need correct timing. I think the jets electronics play a part in that unless the nuke measures altitude itself. By the way Americans don’t Allow nukes to be carried on our f16s anyway....


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## TheTallGuy

loanranger said:


> I hope you don’t want the nuke to detonate as soon as it is released from the jet.So you need correct timing. I think the jets electronics play a part in that unless the nuke measures altitude itself. By the way Americans don’t Allow nukes to be carried on our f16s anyway....



food for thought!

Gone are the days of Airplane delivering nukes..

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## SABRE

Pakhtoon yum said:


> @Retired Troll we're doomed.
> 
> Well in any case, I hope it's not true because more reliance on the US is a huge liability for state security.



To dispel of reliability on the US one needs to improve the economy to the point where one can buy from other sources.



TheTallGuy said:


> @Khafee @zulu @Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @RIWWIR
> Good Day Gentlemen,
> "Victory has many fathers...defeat is orphan"
> 
> *Ever wondered why sudden change in US Policy? those who believe we are getting the F-16s because of Afghan-Taliban-US resolution is not entirely true.* what i have deduced its because of operational performance of PAF and there is an ace which PAF holds. (2 x Israeli Pilots)
> 
> actual number should be 36 F-16C/D Block 72 (24 charlies and 12 x Delta) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ (12 x Charlie and 6 x Delta) That is 54 aircraft.
> 
> 2 x israeli pilots = 54 x F-16s Vipers..(36 x new, 18 x upgrades)
> 
> Enjoy the monsoon!
> 
> 
> 
> No friend! why would i increase? its 8 kills (3 x Su-30MKI, 2 x Mirage 2000, 3 x MiG-21BISON) on 27th Feb 19.



PAF's performance has nothing to do with the policy change. Such things don't really matter to the Americans. There are other means for dealing on the Israeli pilots, but that is if we have them. So far its been nothing but a myth.

Several factors have emerged that have impacted bilateral relations. Afghanistan is definitely one of them. Second, some state department officials have acted as a firewall against Pakistan in the US. This is still true but the issue seems to have been taken cared of, perhaps via lobbying groups and individuals on the Hill. Americans of Pakistani origin have been quite active on the political scene as well. Their vote is perhaps meaningless when it comes to numbers but their funding is important for Trump's upcoming campaign. There are Pakistanis who are close to Trump-Kushner family as well, including our ambassador to the US Ali Jahangir Siddiqui, who was previously seen as a nepotism case and unqualified for such a job.

Iran factor is also there. Trump probably does not want to go to war with Iran but with elections coming up he needs to take up a hardline position and muster up as much international support as possible. He would need to show that Iran is problematic for the region & its neighbour and Pakistan is important for that game. At this point, the US would like to ensure that the Afghan Taliban and Sunni groups in Pakistan align their interests with the US (we must not fall for this though).

Weaning of preference for India or India-Over-Pakistan policy is another factor. Being a businessman Trump also sees diplomacy from a business perspective and he perhaps has not found the Indo-US relations to be as lucrative as Clinton, Bush and Obama's admins made it sound like. These three administrations put Indo-US relations over Pakistan-US relations due to economic and strategic reasoning. Those economic and strategic goals have actually not been achieved. India did not buy American nuclear reactors when they received the NSG waiver. They instead went for Russian. Subsequently, the American Westinghouse went bankrupt. India continues to buy mainstay weapons from Europe and Russia instead of the US. India has not aligned its Iran policy with that of the US. India's activities in Afghanistan have indirectly complicated US goals in Afghanistan. Trump probably didn't find Clinton-Bush-Obama India Appeasement Policy to be working and thus announced the withdrawal of preferential trade treatment for India in June, and when India retaliated by imposing tariffs on some of the US imports Trump went ahead with improving ties with Pakistan. But all of this doesn't mean that India does not matter to the US or that the US has put Pakistan over India. It only means that Trump has played a balancer card.

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## ARMalik

This thread is getting weirder by the minute. Not saying it is not true - it may be true. But then, exchanging 'Israeli Pilots' for F-16s, Eight IA jets downed on Feb 27, Indian encashment, etc is a bit too much to digest.


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## SABRE

TheTallGuy said:


> food for thought!
> 
> Gone are the days of Airplane delivering nukes..



Not really. With enemy having BMD systems you will need something to fly at low altitude and launch a nuclear strike. Cruise missiles can do that but given their shorter range, they'll need something to provide them with an extended range. That something is 'aircraft.'


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## Imran Khan

Dazzler said:


> I never included you.


Thata good


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## SIPRA

SABRE said:


> PAF's performance has nothing to do with the policy change. Such things don't really matter to the Americans. There are other means for dealing on the Israeli pilots, but that is if we have them. So far its been nothing but a myth.
> 
> Several factors have emerged that has impacted bilateral relations. Afghanistan is definitely one of them. Second, some state department officials have acted as a firewall against Pakistan in the US. This is still true but the issue seems to have been taken cared of, perhaps via lobbying groups and individuals on the Hill. Americans of Pakistani origin have been quite active on the political scene as well. Their vote is perhaps meaningless when it comes to numbers but their funding is important for Trump's upcoming campaign. There are Pakistanis who are close to Trump-Kushner family as well, including our ambassador to the US Ali Jahangir Siddiqui, who was previously seen as a nepotism case and unqualified for such a job.
> 
> Iran factor is also there. Trump probably does not want to go to war with Iran but with elections coming up he needs to take up a hardline position and muster up as much international support as possible. He would need to show that Iran is problematic for the region & its neighbour and Pakistan is important for that game. At this point, the US would like to ensure that the Afghan Taliban and Sunni groups in Pakistan align their interests with the US (we must not fall for this though).
> 
> Weaning of preference for India or India-Over-Pakistan policy is another factor. Being a businessman Trump also sees diplomacy from a business perspective and he perhaps has not found the Indo-US relations to be as lucrative as Clinton, Bush and Obama's admins made it sound like. These three administrations put Indo-US relations over Pakistan-US relations due to economic and strategic reasoning. Those economic and strategic goals have actually not been achieved. India did not buy American nuclear reactors when they received the NSG waiver. They instead went for Russian. Subsequently, the American Westinghouse went bankrupt. India continues to buy mainstay weapons from Europe and Russia instead of the US. India has not aligned its Iran policy with that of the US. India's activities in Afghanistan have indirectly complicated US goals in Afghanistan. Trump probably didn't find Clinton-Bush-Obama India Appeasement Policy to be working and thus announced the withdrawal of preferential trade treatment for India in June, and when India retaliated by imposing tariffs on some of the US imports Trump went ahead with improving ties with Pakistan. But all of this doesn't mean that India does not matter to the US or that the US has put Pakistan over India. It only means that Trump has played a balancer card.



Excellent and realistic analysis.



ARMalik said:


> This thread is getting weirder by the minute. Not saying it is not true - it may be true. But then, exchanging 'Israeli Pilots' for F-16s, Eight IA jets downed on Feb 27, Indian encashment, etc is a bit too much to digest.



Pakistan main lambi lambi chhorhnay per koi tax naheen.

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## loanranger

Apparently this guy is in the Airforce.


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## The Terminator

mingle said:


> Trump visit to Pak will be after deal is signed.i Beleive F16s r known to every one we will see what package will be finalized along other Goodies I believe it would be big one more cobras. CSF money along some money by Govt of Pak will go purchase I won't be surprised if we get PAC 3 along M1A1 tank offer final tally will be above 10 billions my two cents only PAF new and used Airframes along current fleet upgrades will be 6 to 7 billion. Navy wants swift covertts along MPA Jett powered P8 Army wants Max pro we need them badly to minimize human loss at western borders may come from EDA. Lets see fingers crossed


Well IMHO it seems a bit of your own wishful shopping list that most probably not gonna happen. A few more cobras, Maxpro, even F-16 are probable at best. But I would be a lot more skeptical about force multipliers like p8, Pac3 also add Apache US E3 Awacs and F35 into it, getting into the hands of Pak Armed Forces any time soon unless we sign deals of similar or better systems from Russia, China etc and US too badly wants us to be firmly within their grip at that particular moment. Turkey is their most important geopolitical NATO ally but they were refused to own any weapon systems like that for decades. Owning to many similarities between Turkey and Pakistan, How do you think Pakistan is anyhow better in terms with US than Turkey?? And why do you think Pakistan is already buying, JV and ToT of naval assets from western and Eastern friends why do you think Pak would want US made brand new ships now and same is the case of M1 Abrams. They don't match with our strategic military doctrine and attached with all the strings and end user agreements possible. And respectful nations build their own MBTs due to the fact that any export version MBT is severely downgraded in armor and its subsystems. Zia ul Haq would have already ordered Abrams many decades before if they were any good to us.

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## Sulemanms202

very disappointed with our leadership.
we want low cost energy production systems which could reduce our circular debt problems and could also lower our cost of production..........


in Sweden they are already producing energy from trash just with sorting items correctly.. when will we learn?

whether we pay for the deal or not is point less... our demands will take us deeper into our sinkhole

without developing our social economic side we wont prosper in today's world.. it is very cruel
sound footings on social economics is a prequisite to grow for any country without it no f-16s can save you


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## Trailer23

loanranger said:


> View attachment 571192
> 
> Apparently this guy is in the Airforce.


I think most of the guys here have seen my (other) work. This was one of my earlier work from last year. 30sec Teaser.






I'll start working on something new, at the off chance something becomes more...Official.

The new guys, who haven't seen my earlier work can view the material on:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-air-force-vids-edited-on-adobe-premiere.585383/

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## Khafee

Dazzler said:


> You should be banned permanently if this turns out to be a farce. Playing with sentiments of 220 million should come at a cost.



And if it turns out to be true, will you and the other TT's who have been naysayers on this thread, quit the forum for good.

Btw Do tell us, how did you arrive at this figure of 220m. When in reality, not even 2% are on this forum. 


@Horus Pls note

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## Irfan Baloch

SABRE said:


> To dispel of reliability on the US one needs to improve the economy to the point where one can buy from other
> 
> 
> PAF's performance has nothing to do with the policy change. Such things don't really matter to the Americans. There are other means for dealing on the Israeli pilots, but that is if we have them. So far its been nothing but a myth.
> 
> Several factors have emerged that has impacted bilateral relations. Afghanistan is definitely one of them. Second, some state department officials have acted as a firewall against Pakistan in the US. This is still true but the issue seems to have been taken cared of, perhaps via lobbying groups and individuals on the Hill. Americans of Pakistani origin have been quite active on the political scene as well. Their vote is perhaps meaningless when it comes to numbers but their funding is important for Trump's upcoming campaign. There are Pakistanis who are close to Trump-Kushner family as well, including our ambassador to the US Ali Jahangir Siddiqui, who was previously seen as a nepotism case and unqualified for such a job.
> 
> Iran factor is also there. Trump probably does not want to go to war with Iran but with elections coming up he needs to take up a hardline position and muster up as much international support as possible. He would need to show that Iran is problematic for the region & its neighbour and Pakistan is important for that game. At this point, the US would like to ensure that the Afghan Taliban and Sunni groups in Pakistan align their interests with the US (we must not fall for this though).
> 
> Weaning of preference for India or India-Over-Pakistan policy is another factor. Being a businessman Trump also sees diplomacy from a business perspective and he perhaps has not found the Indo-US relations to be as lucrative as Clinton, Bush and Obama's admins made it sound like. These three administrations put Indo-US relations over Pakistan-US relations due to economic and strategic reasoning. Those economic and strategic goals have actually not been achieved. India did not buy American nuclear reactors when they received the NSG waiver. They instead went for Russian. Subsequently, the American Westinghouse went bankrupt. India continues to buy mainstay weapons from Europe and Russia instead of the US. India has not aligned its Iran policy with that of the US. India's activities in Afghanistan have indirectly complicated US goals in Afghanistan. Trump probably didn't find Clinton-Bush-Obama India Appeasement Policy to be working and thus announced the withdrawal of preferential trade treatment for India in June, and when India retaliated by imposing tariffs on some of the US imports Trump went ahead with improving ties with Pakistan. But all of this doesn't mean that India does not matter to the US or that the US has put Pakistan over India. It only means that Trump has played a balancer card.


with little bit of editing this is front page quality analysis.
@Dubious @Oscar
please check this out I dont recall who is managing our talent hunting and articles



Khafee said:


> And if it turns out to be true, will you and the other TT's who have been naysayers on this thread, quit the forum for good.
> 
> Btw Do tell us, how did you arrive at this figure of 220m. When in reality, not even 2% are on this forum.
> 
> 
> @Horus Pls note


dont take it personal
his comment was a self inflicted joke and I am embarrassed



Dazzler said:


> You should be banned permanently if this turns out to be a farce. Playing with sentiments of 220 million should come at a cost.


lol. its only a fraction of 200 M who use internet and read English and out of that have the comprehension necessary to understand the defence related news
so only a select Pakistani internet community with defence interest will be heart broken if the news is no more than the $125M US assistance support for existing Pakistani fleet

the only sentiments played at are those on the eastern side of the border
this claim has really ruffled the web force of Indian galactic command.

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## Trailer23

Khafee said:


> And if it turns out to be true...


Bhai, if it turns out to be true...

I'll have a custom PAF-16 shirt designed/delivered to you on your doorstep.

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## TheTallGuy

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Very dear YoungPak,
> 
> How have you been? Any success on Hunting trip? North is working out fine?
> _*
> Welll, what Our Boys did in Sialkot Sector was quite something...also on the LoC the payback with accumulated interest was given in full.*_
> 
> Plus the broad daylight peneteration by the PAF did something that was up to 65 level.... we dominated the escalation ladder. *We still dominate the Escalation Ladder!*
> 
> Oman was hot was well... ready to go against us... when gangadesh crabbed the mijjilz.... far too early in the conflict... these are the telltale signs of something *out-of-the-ordinary *that had happened on 27th Feb.
> Zafar Hilalee dropped it on Dr. Moeed show about a special _tota_... and then all quiet on that front!
> 
> *Pakistan came into being on 27th of Ramadan!*
> 
> The Grand Bargain or D.C. Accord as I would like to put it... is sum of many factors.
> 
> We are NOT out of the woods yet. F16s are fine and dandy for now... for now, I repeat... however, we need to focus on Project AZM evermore now...
> 
> Personally, I would like to see *Pak US Economic Corridor* as part of the deal which also includes Debt Write-off...
> 
> We have paid the price of 80k Pak Lives and $225+Bln loss to economy.. PMIK needs to get his figure right... Economist article he must read again... *F16s are peanuts!*
> 
> About a couple of *totaz*.... well isn't it a tradition to have _totaz_ in small cage and teach them talk...*Mian Mithoo...*
> 
> F16s or not.. what is most delightful that PakState and Pak people were/are in unison when the Ganga went gaga after falseflag Pulwama-drama... we held our horses... almost with studied disdain..
> 
> After MBS visit we the answered on every level...from streets of Karachi, Lahore, Quetta, Peshawar, Sibbi, Muffazarabad, former FATA and of course, #VideoLand Islamabad... to PMIK...
> 
> *#Don'tMessWithPakistan*
> 
> Now about the trade-off...well..._tick tock..tick tock...
> 
> You take good care... some of us here have grown quite fond of you, YoungPak... _



Sir Jee, with due respect I would suggest wait & see

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## Dubious

Irfan Baloch said:


> please check this out I dont recall who is managing our talent hunting and articles


@Slav Defence @Arsalan



Irfan Baloch said:


> this claim has really ruffled the web force of Indian galactic command.


and hence served its purpose

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## TheTallGuy

loanranger said:


> View attachment 571192
> 
> Apparently this guy is in the Airforce.



What is on the Table?
13 x Ex-RJAF F-16A/B ADF (No.19 Sqn) these are to be upgraded to full MLU status. that means APG-68 radars.
16 x RJAF F-16A ADF possibly purchased and go to upgrade MLU Status. that means APG-68
36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (Brand New) with APG-83 Radars
18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ upgrade to Viper Configuration. Thant means APG83 Radars

I dont believe that PAF would go for Viper upgrade for Whole MLU fleet that means 45 x F-16A/B MLUs also this would bring 2nd AESA Radar (Sabre/RACR) radar which does not perform optimum level. SLEP is in order though.



SABRE said:


> To dispel of reliability on the US one needs to improve the economy to the point where one can buy from other sources.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF's performance has nothing to do with the policy change. Such things don't really matter to the Americans. There are other means for dealing on the Israeli pilots, but that is if we have them. So far its been nothing but a myth.
> 
> Several factors have emerged that has impacted bilateral relations. Afghanistan is definitely one of them. Second, some state department officials have acted as a firewall against Pakistan in the US. This is still true but the issue seems to have been taken cared of, perhaps via lobbying groups and individuals on the Hill. Americans of Pakistani origin have been quite active on the political scene as well. Their vote is perhaps meaningless when it comes to numbers but their funding is important for Trump's upcoming campaign. There are Pakistanis who are close to Trump-Kushner family as well, including our ambassador to the US Ali Jahangir Siddiqui, who was previously seen as a nepotism case and unqualified for such a job.
> 
> Iran factor is also there. Trump probably does not want to go to war with Iran but with elections coming up he needs to take up a hardline position and muster up as much international support as possible. He would need to show that Iran is problematic for the region & its neighbour and Pakistan is important for that game. At this point, the US would like to ensure that the Afghan Taliban and Sunni groups in Pakistan align their interests with the US (we must not fall for this though).
> 
> Weaning of preference for India or India-Over-Pakistan policy is another factor. Being a businessman Trump also sees diplomacy from a business perspective and he perhaps has not found the Indo-US relations to be as lucrative as Clinton, Bush and Obama's admins made it sound like. These three administrations put Indo-US relations over Pakistan-US relations due to economic and strategic reasoning. Those economic and strategic goals have actually not been achieved. India did not buy American nuclear reactors when they received the NSG waiver. They instead went for Russian. Subsequently, the American Westinghouse went bankrupt. India continues to buy mainstay weapons from Europe and Russia instead of the US. India has not aligned its Iran policy with that of the US. India's activities in Afghanistan have indirectly complicated US goals in Afghanistan. Trump probably didn't find Clinton-Bush-Obama India Appeasement Policy to be working and thus announced the withdrawal of preferential trade treatment for India in June, and when India retaliated by imposing tariffs on some of the US imports Trump went ahead with improving ties with Pakistan. But all of this doesn't mean that India does not matter to the US or that the US has put Pakistan over India. It only means that Trump has played a balancer card.



One of the best geopolitical analysis i have read..but 27th Feb 19 has played a very big role.

@Khafee

There is one important bit you did not share..about this order? is it subsidized or some very good friend is paying cold hard cash...just like 1968

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## Irfan Baloch

Trailer23 said:


> Bhai, if it turns out to be true...
> 
> I'll have a custom PAF-16 shirt designed/delivered to you on your doorstep.


if it turns out to be untrue then still I will mark the day of this thread as another web troll victory over our Indian web counterparts

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## Khafee

TheTallGuy said:


> What is on the Table?
> 13 x Ex-RJAF F-16A/B ADF (No.19 Sqn) these are to be upgraded to full MLU status. that means APG-68 radars.
> 16 x RJAF F-16A ADF possibly purchased and go to upgrade MLU Status. that means APG-68
> 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (Brand New) with APG-83 Radars
> 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ upgrade to Viper Configuration. Thant means APG83 Radars
> 
> I dont believe that PAF would go for Viper upgrade for Whole MLU fleet that means 45 x F-16A/B MLUs also this would bring 2nd AESA Radar (Sabre/RACR) radar which does not perform optimum level. SLEP is in order though.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the best geopolitical analysis i have read..but 27th Feb 19 has played a very big role.
> 
> @Khafee
> 
> There is one important bit you did not share..about this order? is it subsidized or some very good friend is paying cold hard cash...just like 1968



Authorization for the new ones is limited to *24*, not 36, for now. 
Plus there is a "*remote possibility*" that these could have the higher thrust GE-132 engines, hence Blk70. 
GE engines, have a better reliability rate in desert conditions, in comparison to PW btw. 

The Current PAF fleet, all of it, will get APG-83.

*Who is paying* - I left that part our on purpose, I want these so called "Think Tanks" aka tin cans, to prove them selves, instead of firing arrows in the air, and howling in the wind, this is a good opportunity for them to redeem their credibility, after they fell flat on their faces with the C-17 saga. 

Have a nice day!

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## Trailer23

TheTallGuy said:


> 16 x RJAF F-16A ADF possibly purchased and go to upgrade MLU Status. that means APG-68


Not sure how you got the info on the Jordanian F-16's 'cause they have one of the worst sites I've ever encountered.

The English version rarely opens & when it does - the 'Announcements' section is always in Arabic, so its hard to tell what they are interested to sell off.


----------



## SIPRA

Irfan Baloch said:


> if it turns out to be untrue then still I will mark the day of this thread as another web troll victory over our Indian web counterparts



Yes. One day of trolling is better than 100 years of contemplation. Particularly, of the Gangadeshis.

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> if it turns out to be untrue then still I will mark the day of this thread as another web troll victory over our Indian web counterparts



IA you will not see that day.

Btw, it will be interesting to see their reaction when the Zulus fly in, and the actual numbers to be eventually inducted. 

IA good times ahead

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## Arsalan 345

America wants exit from Afghanistan and they want pakistan to cooperate.prize is surely exit from fatf,more weapons like f-16 and amraams,economic assistance etc. Trump is a kind man.he only speak bad about countries but a kind person.he can help us.f-16 block 70 is a possibility but I am sure third party is involved like saudia or use.f-16 is our love.don't compare project azm with this f-16 news.our pilots love f-16 and that's why we want more.



Khafee said:


> IA you will not see that day.
> 
> Btw, it will be interesting to see their reaction when the Zulus fly in, and the actual numbers to be eventually inducted.
> 
> IA good times ahead



If true,this could be a huge success for us.

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## Khafee

Trailer23 said:


> Not sure how you got the info on the Jordanian F-16's 'cause they have one of the worst sites I've ever encountered.
> 
> The English version rarely opens & when it does - the 'Announcements' section is always in Arabic, so its hard to tell what they are interested to sell off.


I will not comment on Jordanian or any other vipers, but there IS talk of 2nd hand vipers, which will also get APG-83. BUT this will take some time. Too many parties involved.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Keysersoze said:


> I think the F21 was always a hard sell to india. It will despite the upgrades be an inferior aircraft in the mind of the average Indian, simply because Pakistan operates it. Also the age of the aircraft will play on their minds. I think another 36 Rafales will be purchased. Otherwise look at the potential lineup for the IAF
> 
> Su30
> Mig21
> Jaguar
> Rafale
> M2000
> Mig27
> Tejas
> And then whatever else they purchase. It would be a huge logistics issue getting all the parts.


Include Mig29 UPG

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## Armchair

SABRE said:


> Not really. With enemy having BMD systems you will need something to fly at low altitude and launch a nuclear strike. Cruise missiles can do that but given their shorter range, they'll need something to provide them with an extended range. That something is 'aircraft.'



Or you simply have maneuvering, multiple re-entry vehicles. That's another choice that Russia seems to have gone with.

if @TallGuy is on target, which I think he is, then it is a very interesting situation. It is like we have a lot of cards to play. Israeli pilots, Indian pilots, Russian warm water access, American retreat from Afghanistan, Chinese access to the Gulf, Pak Oil!!!, top marketing team for LM, protecting Saudi and UAE during the Iran debacle,...

I would add that we are slowly forming a core alliance with Turkey and Malaysia.

Now the foreign policy blunder we used to make is we would focus on the military equipment but not on the economic help we can get. Can we get Trump to ask his business buddies to invest in Pakistan? Since they are moving out of China, and India seems inhospitable, we can have a shot at this, and all we need is a shot.

First of course, we need to get our house in order. I remember visiting Pak factories in Punjab as a field researcher for a World Bank - IMF project in 2003, and many of the factories were cold because of frequent load shedding. If this problem is continuing then bringing foreign investment will not work at all.

Can IK call up Tesla? That would be most interesting. I think we can basically save Tesla by lowering their costs to kingdom come. And they can give us an economic breakthrough.

The belt and road initiative can also be used for Russian goods flowing through to the South. If we can work on this, there is huge (yuge) trade potential in this.

The other aspect we are completely ignoring are industrial machinery. High tech machinery is something that can help increase our industrial production. Perhaps we can make a deal with China to get a host of their garments factories (which they are getting rid of as they are going up to other kinds of products) and simultaneously make a deal with the US to get preferential access to their market.
Could we do the same for light electronics? Can we become a future clock maker for the world? China cannot sustain these industries for long, as their income levels rise and productive population decreases.

One of the plans we had (well, I had) at the PTI think tank was to build Pak Malls. That is, self-contained colonies essentially that are malls. Pakistanis would buy shop space and living quarters, and the government would help set these malls up in every major city in the world. This would allow us to sell our products directly to foreign customers, rather than going through the MNCs that squeeze us out of 95% of the market value of a product. If we can make a deal with Trump (and he being a real estate tycoon would appreciate this, and who knows even participate in some form), we could set up a Pak Mall in all major cities in the US.

That would be a price I'd want the US to pay more than any weapon system alone.

The last point I want to raise is that we are focused on the big ticket items. But we should not lose eyesight on the small items. Pak needs to replace the G-3. We could easily get a lot of American small arms to replace our outdated and worn-thin guns. Same is true for armour. The US has been upgrading their own personnel armor, but the old gear could easily come Pak's way. We are also way behind India on APCs and other armored vehicles.

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## War Thunder

Philip the Arab said:


> Actually after the prototype was developed and the US wanted to buy it many more technologies for it were developed. I own a majority of the tech used after block 1 because the R&D was paid for by Us gov.



How old are you? Even 10?

I suppose you also own all the destruction brought down by the weapons that are all paid from your pocket and you are claiming the ownership of? When was the last time you tried holding your government responsible for mass murder of children and civilians all over the globe? Which you have claimed ownership of?

Might wanna have some shame in the process?

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## Armchair

Sulemanms202 said:


> very disappointed with our leadership.
> we want low cost energy production systems which could reduce our circular debt problems and could also lower our cost of production..........
> 
> 
> in Sweden they are already producing energy from trash just with sorting items correctly.. when will we learn?
> 
> whether we pay for the deal or not is point less... our demands will take us deeper into our sinkhole
> 
> without developing our social economic side we wont prosper in today's world.. it is very cruel
> sound footings on social economics is a prequisite to grow for any country without it no f-16s can save you



Pak has one of the largest coal reserves in the world, and it is only idiocy that has stopped us from producing enough electricity for ourselves.

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## War Thunder

MastanKhan said:


> @Khafee
> 
> "The Feb hostilities saw 3 PLAAF squadrons go to standby - in order to assist Pakistan if needed. PLAN sent 4 SSK , and 3 boomers, at least two Type 55 destroyers, other assets were also sent later after the ISI chiefs visit. PLA also went to full war time alert, ready to move in.
> 
> This is the main reason why IN choose to sleep out the hostilities".
> 
> See---this is what I cannot comprehend---. As India took american permission to attack those trees in kashmir---pakistan must have involved china in its plan as well of strike on the 27th---.
> 
> And when there was so much chinese backing---why was there cowardice shown by the Paf generals by not doing maximum damage---why was the indian scorpene let go---?





Maybe because that is exactly what the indians and their masters in Tel Aviv were trying to extract from you? An all out war?
Maybe that is exactly why the Scorpene was sent on a suicidal mission?
And maybe that is exactly why they had Mig 21s trying to chase out JF-17's?

It's not as simple as it looks as an outsider, what equations were at play and what stakes, only the General on the hot seat that day would know...

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## خره مينه لګته وي

I Dont think it will happen, i doubt it..

few reasons;
1- In 1980s USA Approved F16s and rest of them got cancelled in 1990s once USA Was Done with us regarding Afg , USSR.
2- This Time around they are again Showing us some fantastic Dreams/Shinny Stuff (F-16V, have to be confirmed first with reliable source as its not a confirmed news right now).
3- USA will not deliver it within a Year and it will take few years before they are arrive Or handed over to PAF - by that time USA Will be done with AFG & Then as usual Congress will block it or USA Will simply transfer it to storage area (Just like Zulu helis) for more Favors in return..
4- Worst case senario Sanctions on Pakistan once USA Is outta here, they can slap sanctions on us for supporting Afg Taliban and being the only reason for USA Defeat in Afg as it happened with a one Country after the Vietnam defeat and not to forget what happened after USSR Was defeated and USA PACKED their bags and in return we got Sanctioned..

** I hope i am wrong but for me its hard to Trust USA


----------



## T90TankGuy

ziaulislam said:


> Much easy to steel it from usa rather than fishing here
> 
> 
> Zarvan...well..not happening ..he is always jinxed


Zarvan just got his twitter account blocked.

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## Armchair

TheTallGuy said:


> @Khafee @zulu @Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @RIWWIR
> Good Day Gentlemen,
> "Victory has many fathers...defeat is orphan"
> 
> Ever wondered why sudden change in US Policy? those who believe we are getting the F-16s because of Afghan-Taliban-US resolution is not entirely true. what i have deduced its because of operational performance of PAF and there is an ace which PAF holds. (2 x Israeli Pilots)
> 
> actual number should be 36 F-16C/D Block 72 (24 charlies and 12 x Delta) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ (12 x Charlie and 6 x Delta) That is 54 aircraft.
> 
> 2 x israeli pilots = 54 x F-16s Vipers..(36 x new, 18 x upgrades)
> 
> Enjoy the monsoon!
> 
> 
> 
> No friend! why would i increase? its 8 kills (3 x Su-30MKI, 2 x Mirage 2000, 3 x MiG-21BISON) on 27th Feb 19.



So glad to see you back. How come we have two car salesman, and both are among the best members ever. We need more car salesmen!!

54 vipers with AESA!!! Even it is an air breathing AESA, its a mass produced US product, very little chance we can go wrong with this. The ELINT gained by India on the 27th will be partially nullified with this upgrade (and the block 3s). 

Now, if we could only get a few LRAAMs in the mix, or Meteors somehow... can we shoot down some French pilots next please?

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## War Thunder

incognito1000 said:


> This makes sense, I would figure the US-Indian alliance will come to an end at some point. The US has sold India pretty sophisticated hardware and yet, India has not returned the favor. US extended India certain privileges in missile technology and even intel sharing, communication networks. *It has not confronted China and has not even come close to being the "hedge" that the US wanted it to be*. This idea was probably spoon-fed to US policy makers by the Indian lobby and scholars of Indian-origin working at thinktanks. It's similar to the illegal Indian job network here in the US - they promote their own Indian resumes to jobs and throw competent non-Indian resumes in the trash. It ended up wasting a decade of US time, money, and they foolishly gave up so much of their technology in exchange for nothing. *India has failed the US in confronting China*. The Indians literally think that they can extract maximum benefits from US due to their lobbying and do nothing in exchange.
> 
> Now the US is moving towards doing the confrontation *itself* with its own weapons. Hence, you see the push towards hypersonic missiles, laser weaponry, long range rockets and missiles for island warfare. India has no place in the calculus.






It's the same wherever they go. While we Pakis are busy pulling each other down, the indians will bring their own people everywhere. 
No wonder so many of them end up on higher positions of power like Microsoft, Google and all...


----------



## Armchair

I think the US was surprised when Pak didn't come to the US after 26th, and took action on the 27th, without getting a nod from Rome. It seems we instead acted independently and in very close coordination with China. This freaked them out and got them to change their gameplan. I think a fundamental shift in their foreign policy happened because of this. 

Also, with IK and the united front we are now presenting, for the first time, it seems the Americans respect Pakistan.

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## Khafee

jbgt90 said:


> Zarvan just got his twitter account blocked.


No, seems to working just fine.


----------



## War Thunder

Armchair said:


> This is part of Trump's mediation into the Kashmir problem... a really effective solution. Endians are going to be at the end of a long, sharp, stick.



This is punishment for trying to reject Trumps claim on Modi.



ahmadnawaz22 said:


> Give our Young ones Skilled Visa Categories and Investment in our Industry if you want to give Aid to us.
> for God sake no more weapons on aid Please.
> Buy and Develop Weapons that you can afford with your own Finance and limit your hostilities to that capability you can afford. Stop bankrupting our country with this trend.



Without the weapons, you will not have a country.
You need weapons to protect those investments and your industry, which dried out not because you were not spending on it but because you were fighting a "WAR".

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## Khafee

Armchair said:


> Or you simply have maneuvering, multiple re-entry vehicles. That's another choice that Russia seems to have gone with.
> 
> if @TallGuy is on target, which I think he is, then it is a very interesting situation. It is like we have a lot of cards to play. Israeli pilots, Indian pilots, Russian warm water access, American retreat from Afghanistan, *Chinese access to the Gulf*, Pak Oil!!!, top marketing team for LM, *protecting Saudi and UAE during the Iran debacle*,...
> 
> I would add that we are slowly forming a core alliance with Turkey and Malaysia.
> 
> Now the foreign policy blunder we used to make is we would focus on the military equipment but not on the economic help we can get. Can we get Trump to ask his business buddies to invest in Pakistan? Since they are moving out of China, and India seems inhospitable, we can have a shot at this, and all we need is a shot.
> 
> First of course, we need to get our house in order. I remember visiting Pak factories in Punjab as a field researcher for a World Bank - IMF project in 2003, and many of the factories were cold because of frequent load shedding. If this problem is continuing then bringing foreign investment will not work at all.
> 
> Can IK call up Tesla? That would be most interesting. I think we can basically save Tesla by lowering their costs to kingdom come. And they can give us an economic breakthrough.
> 
> The belt and road initiative can also be used for Russian goods flowing through to the South. If we can work on this, there is huge (yuge) trade potential in this.
> 
> The other aspect we are completely ignoring are industrial machinery. High tech machinery is something that can help increase our industrial production. Perhaps we can make a deal with China to get a host of their garments factories (which they are getting rid of as they are going up to other kinds of products) and simultaneously make a deal with the US to get preferential access to their market.
> Could we do the same for light electronics? Can we become a future clock maker for the world? China cannot sustain these industries for long, as their income levels rise and productive population decreases.
> 
> One of the plans we had (well, I had) at the PTI think tank was to build Pak Malls. That is, self-contained colonies essentially that are malls. Pakistanis would buy shop space and living quarters, and the government would help set these malls up in every major city in the world. This would allow us to sell our products directly to foreign customers, rather than going through the MNCs that squeeze us out of 95% of the market value of a product. If we can make a deal with Trump (and he being a real estate tycoon would appreciate this, and who knows even participate in some form), we could set up a Pak Mall in all major cities in the US.
> 
> That would be a price I'd want the US to pay more than any weapon system alone.
> 
> The last point I want to raise is that we are focused on the big ticket items. But we should not lose eyesight on the small items. Pak needs to replace the G-3. We could easily get a lot of American small arms to replace our outdated and worn-thin guns. Same is true for armour. The US has been upgrading their own personnel armor, but the old gear could easily come Pak's way. We are also way behind India on APCs and other armored vehicles.



Very well said! But I would respectfully like to disagree on the following two points, without going into details, Pak does not hold the cards for these two:

1) "*Chinese access to the Gulf*". 
Pakistan could have played a very +ve role in this regard, but unfortunately the last 2 administrations, have been snoozing, and missed the boat. With KSA as the official 3rd Partner in CPEC, this "*could*" change.
https://www.ft.com/content/82e5d5b8-41da-11e1-a586-00144feab49a

2) "*Protecting Saudi and UAE during the Iran debacle*"
Not anymore.

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## War Thunder

rana MRL said:


> Sir due respect... At this moments and now on china is stratrgic partner forseable future.... America is untrustworthy ..... Better to balance between both of them as pakistan interest can not be harmed .... Milking America for better benefits by not dumping china as strategic partner ...




And what do you suppose we have bee doing for decades?


----------



## Basel

Longhorn said:


> The Americans have already said that they cannot allow their F35 to coexist in the same arsenal as the S400 where it's weaknesses can be wargames and identified, they have cancelled Turkey's contract in this regard.
> Can someone tell me why they would make an exception in India's case.
> Answers on a postcard please.



They may allow F-35 to India as they allowed Pakistan to keep F-16s separate from non US systems.


----------



## War Thunder

ice_man said:


> please avoid posting fake news. no one said BLK 70s. don't make up stuff.



How is it a fake news?
Even if it was a speculation, it still won't be "Fake news".?
where's the fabrication


----------



## zulu

If india ready to cancelled s-400 first


Basel said:


> They may allow F-35 to India as they allowed Pakistan to keep F-16s separate from non US systems.

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## Basel

zulu said:


> If india ready to ditch s-400 first



There is possibility that India will get both S-400 and F-35 but may station them far away from each other.


----------



## War Thunder

Armchair said:


> I think there are two major plans at play:
> 
> 1. Pak will get Taliban to take over Afghanistan via elections so it is less shameful for the US.
> 2. Pak will protect SA and UAE interests in the coming Iran war.
> 
> The other issue is that with these F-16s coming, the Pak-Russian / Pak-China deal becomes insignificant as PAF is cannot absorb more than the JF-17 and F-16 simultaneously.
> 
> Pak has to make sure that they get whatever equipment is being promised on a fast track and not get delayed into oblivion.
> 
> Some additional thoughts:
> 
> 1. Can some used equipment be part of the deal? And not only for the air force but for the army and the navy? How about some helicopters? Some APCs?
> 
> 2. Can the navy also get something, perhaps the Swift ships?





You do realize we have a border with "Iran"?
And if a war does start and Pakistan is defending the interests of UAE and Saudi, then who the iranians will have an easy time attacking and throwing everything at? America on the other side of the world or a country you have a long border with?


----------



## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Very well said! But I would respectfully like to disagree on the following two points, without going into details, Pak does not hold the cards for these two:
> 
> 1) "*Chinese access to the Gulf*".
> Pakistan could have played a very +ve role in this regard, but unfortunately the last 2 administrations, have been snoozing, and missed the boat. With KSA as the official 3rd Partner in CPEC, this "*could*" change.
> https://www.ft.com/content/82e5d5b8-41da-11e1-a586-00144feab49a
> 
> 2) "*Protecting Saudi and UAE during the Iran debacle*"
> Not anymore.



To the wise that is a dead give away what you just wrote  cheers

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## araz

Sulemanms202 said:


> very disappointed with our leadership.
> we want low cost energy production systems which could reduce our circular debt problems and could also lower our cost of production..........
> 
> 
> in Sweden they are already producing energy from trash just with sorting items correctly.. when will we learn?
> 
> whether we pay for the deal or not is point less... our demands will take us deeper into our sinkhole
> 
> without developing our social economic side we wont prosper in today's world.. it is very cruel
> sound footings on social economics is a prequisite to grow for any country without it no f-16s can save you


There is a certain naivity in your post. While I cannot agree more with you about the need for energy sources, you also need to look at the region in general which is becoming more dangerous by the day. This maybe a curse of being in a geopolitically charged area but we cannot ignore our defence anymore than we can our social and personal development. Paklands need to fight a war on many fronts. Only once we have assured peace on our borders can we look inwards
A

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## Khafee

ice_man said:


> please avoid posting fake news. no one said BLK 70s. don't make up stuff.


This is why I added "*or Blk 72*"

GE engine - even the lower thrust one, has an advantage over PW.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> This is why I added "*or Blk 72*"


sir people are not taking you serious just ignore them

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## Sulemanms202

winning a war without socio eco independence is a difficult road one for which people pay very dear price.
after all socia economic indep. was one of the reason behind two nation theory

whats the point of having the country when you cant fulfill its purpose
people were paying the price in the form of british slavery now they are paying price to our local lords.
when people feel liberated and have choices in terms education and jobs country grows and secures itself, weapons dont win wars, nations do


----------



## Trailer23

Basel said:


> There is possibility that India will get both S-400 and F-35 but may station them far away from each other.


Hell has a better shot of freezing over than that happening.

The only reason why the US was offering India the (state-of the-art) F-21 was because it had certain similarities as the F-35.

But you can't be serious if you think that the US is gonna roll on the idea of India having both the S-400 & the F-35.

The US hasn't even offered them the F-35 to begin with. That is just speculation of various Think Tanks assuming that the US may take that route. Chances are slim-to-none.

The F-35 may be offered someday, 10-15 years by now. But, by then there's always the possibility that everyone (including PAF) will be operating Stealth Tech.

If the recent US/Turkey conflict has taught us one thing is that Nations have finally started to say 'No' to the United States.

India will order further Rafales that are just as good as the F-21/F-16 & get the S-400. Win-Win for them.

The only hurdle India now has to deal with is the CAATSA Act which will require diplomacy on a high level.

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## Sulemanms202

same mindset led us into afghan conflict, yes we do have problems at our borders im not saying that but the direction we have taken or we have always taken has always led to our masses being ignorant and budget deficits if thats the choice they are gonna make, very sad to see...


in the days of USSR every country in west was under the threat of soviet invasion they played wisely and made choices which helped their nation...

with correct decision we can fix our economy say in 3 to 5 years then we can buy whatver we want from who ever we want not just US..this US is not going to help us, it is here to enslave us


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## denel

Lets see but I am completely skeptical of this report. Pak has much more challenges on the economic front with the noose of circular debt. Get that house in order first then health, education.



Oscar said:


> I would wait until the Chicks actually hatch. Right now the chicken hasnt laid the eggs, we’ve just been told it will.


Knowing the US, they will agree to everything but then at last minute yank the carpet under the feet. 
As noted before I am highly skeptical of such a report; Modi will make many trips to US to break it. They have a lot of sway on Congress.

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## T90TankGuy

Khafee said:


> No, seems to working just fine.


mind sharing the link?


----------



## alphapak

USA approved sale of F16 Block 70 for Bulgaria in a deal worth $1.6 billion.
So for PAF to get 1 squadron the price would be around $3.2 billion, not
worth it. 

PAF better stick with JF 17 Block 3 and Azm project, we don't need more sanction
prone fighter jets.


----------



## Khafee

jbgt90 said:


> mind sharing the link?


Just google : _Twitter Handsome Zarvan _


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155462165131878400

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## Flight of falcon

WTF Turkey is doing for S400?
They got kicked out of F35 and will loose thousands of jobs and billions in revenues not to mention access to technology , face sanctions on their defence industry and now is offered free trade pact. What is going on here? S400 is a hyped up Russian piece of junk like everything else they make. 

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/n...y-free-trade-agreement-for-deactivating-s-400

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## Humble Analyst

loanranger said:


> I hope you don’t want the nuke to detonate as soon as it is released from the jet.So you need correct timing. I think the jets electronics play a part in that unless the nuke measures altitude itself. By the way Americans don’t Allow nukes to be carried on our f16s anyway....


At some point there was a problem with US on some modifications to F16 was it related to this delivery system?


----------



## War Thunder

danger007 said:


> Oh yeah??? Indian parliament will address if any thing happens like that... armed forces will address... can't keep it secret...




This guy is on the height of being delusion and living in la la land

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## Trailer23

alphapak said:


> PAF better stick with JF 17 Block 3 and Azm project, we don't need more sanction prone fighter jets.


First off, the JF-17 Block III is no F-16 Block 70/72 - so we need not go into that debate.

The IAF may not like the F-16, but they certainly respect & fear it. It is a battle proven jet Worldwide & still going strong after all these years with various upgrades.

The JF-17 has seen the battle ground (Air-to-Air combat) once in a period of a decade. And there are those who contest if it actually shot down an enemy aircraft. Its debatable what the enemy thinks of the JF-17 post 27th Feb.

If one (PAF Pilot) had to be brutally honest, 10/10 Pilots would choose the F-16 Falcon. On a good day, 9/10.

The F-16 may be smaller than the F-15, F-14 & the Su-30 - but its a lot bigger, carries more ammo, is a lot fast than the JF-17 right now.

Yeah, everyone fears the 'Sanctions' bit, but we need a lotta fire power because the IAF is building up.

And...if someone is willing to cover the cost for the F-16's, then sanctions shouldn't be an issue. We can use our funds to boost the JF-17 Block III & B-variant in numbers...

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## Armchair

War Thunder said:


> Why do we need Chinese having access to enable something to carry nukes?



Basically Pak jets needed new wiring. Now, aircraft our outdated as a delivery (free fall) mechanism. At that time, the idea was the jet will fly in, go on a steep climb and drop the bomb, and while the bomb drops, scoot out of there, ASAP. 

Now, for this to work, you need to take care of the EMP from the nuke, otherwise the electronics on your aircraft will be fried. this is particularly true for the control wiring. So, you need to take out the regular wiring and put in very heavy and well-protected wiring. 

This was done by Pak to certain of its aircraft. Which ones is still a state secret. As far as I know, this was done in Pakistan by Pak engineers. There is no great magic to it, just a basic understanding of the science behind the issue.

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## Keysersoze

alphapak said:


> USA approved sale of F16 Block 70 for Bulgaria in a deal worth $1.6 billion.
> So for PAF to get 1 squadron the price would be around $3.2 billion, not
> worth it.
> 
> PAF better stick with JF 17 Block 3 and Azm project, we don't need more sanction
> prone fighter jets.


We already did the calculation and it will be roughly 6 billion for 24 new and 46 upgrade kits. These would bridge the gap till 5th gen assets arrive and would be enough to neutralise any assets India might obtain.

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## alphapak

Keysersoze said:


> We already did the calculation and it will be roughly 6 billion for 24 new and 46 upgrade kits. These would bridge the gap till 5th gen assets arrive and would be enough to neutralise any assets India might obtain.



Is the PAF going for 24 new F16's and 46 upgrade kits?


----------



## danger007

War Thunder said:


> This guy is on the height of being delusion and living in la la land




Am not delusional like you... be it BJP or anyother party in the power... they can't hide such things.. it will be political suicide and they need to address the parliament..


----------



## Keysersoze

alphapak said:


> Is the PAF going for 24 new F16's and 46 upgrade kits?


Well according to original poster they were. The number of upgrade kits may be more or less
It was calculated on the Morrocan airforce.deal that included C7 AMRAAMs


----------



## Humble Analyst

TheTallGuy said:


> @Khafee @zulu @Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @RIWWIR
> Good Day Gentlemen,
> "Victory has many fathers...defeat is orphan"
> 
> Ever wondered why sudden change in US Policy? those who believe we are getting the F-16s because of Afghan-Taliban-US resolution is not entirely true. what i have deduced its because of operational performance of PAF and there is an ace which PAF holds. (2 x Israeli Pilots)
> 
> actual number should be 36 F-16C/D Block 72 (24 charlies and 12 x Delta) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ (12 x Charlie and 6 x Delta) That is 54 aircraft.
> 
> 2 x israeli pilots = 54 x F-16s Vipers..(36 x new, 18 x upgrades)
> 
> Enjoy the monsoon!
> 
> 
> 
> No friend! why would i increase? its 8 kills (3 x Su-30MKI, 2 x Mirage 2000, 3 x MiG-21BISON) on 27th Feb 19.


So if this is true the Israelis pilots would have been on a different mission and not Balakot. Getting caught trying to put the hand in the candy jar is very naughty. That is the only scenario I can think of. Otherwise coming with Indians was just plain stupid and will be surprised if they were just accompanying Indians.


----------



## Tamiyah

Flight of falcon said:


> WTF Turkey is doing for S400?
> They got kicked out of F35 and will loose thousands of jobs and billions in revenues not to mention access to technology , face sanctions on their defence industry and now is offered free trade pact. What is going on here? S400 is a hyped up Russian piece of junk like everything else they make.
> 
> https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/n...y-free-trade-agreement-for-deactivating-s-400


With S400 it can lock on their NATO enemy. They did not have this capability before because IFF system wont let them lock on to enemy aircraft.


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## NA71

Keysersoze said:


> We already did the calculation and it will be roughly 6 billion for 24 new and 46 upgrade kits. These would bridge the gap till 5th gen assets arrive and would be enough to neutralise any assets India might obtain.



calculations? we currently have only 7 Bn Dollars in our foreign reserves.... we need to urgently raise these reserves.

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## Dazzler

Khafee said:


> And if it turns out to be true, will you and the other TT's who have been naysayers on this thread, quit the forum for good.
> 
> Btw Do tell us, how did you arrive at this figure of 220m. When in reality, not even 2% are on this forum.
> 
> 
> @Horus Pls note



BLK 70?? Trump blocked the brand spanking Zulus and you expect him to release 70s? Not just that, you expect the yankees to upgrade remaining fleet to V standard? I hope you are not high on something.

As for bringing MOD in the discussion, grow up mate for once. Its an open forum and when you make a tallish claim, which sounds more like a fantasy parade for now, people will ask questions, source of information etc.

IF it turns out to be true, then I will apologise to you. You should have courage to do the same if it turned out to be a farce. Your claims are so outlandish that no one in their right mind would accept them, for now at least.

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## Tamiyah

NA71 said:


> calculations? we currently have only 7 Bn Dollars in our foreign reserves.... we need to urgently raise these reserves.


Hum gareebon ki jaan choos kar? Tax par tax. Ab koi naya shosha ho to bataye?

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## krash

The Eagle said:


> LM trolled IAF with a flag which is not Indian...... at-least it tells the value of deal may ever come to fruition...
> 
> View attachment 571094



That is the tail marking they use. It was adopted from the RAF. The IAF does not display the Indian flag as its tail markings.

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## Khafee

Dazzler said:


> BLK 70?? Trump blocked the brand spanking Zulus and you expect him to release 70s? Not just that, you expect the yankees to upgrade remaining fleet to V standard? I hope you are not high on something.
> 
> As for bringing MOD in the discussion, grow up mate for once. Its an open forum and when you make a tallish claim, which sounds more like a fantasy parade for now, people will ask questions, source of information etc.
> 
> IF it turns out to be true, then I will apologise to you. You should have courage to do the same if it turned out to be a farce. Your claims are so outlandish that no one in their right mind would accept them, for now at least.



IA The Zulus are coming, so are the Vipers - Blk70/72 - 24 confirmed for now. The upgrades are coming as well. 

IF it turns out to be false, I will apologize, dont worry. I'm not a tin can TT, to be high on something, or have an ego the size of Texas + Alaska.

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## Khafee

Dazzler said:


> @Oscar @Irfan Baloch . Is he even a professional??
> 
> Take note plz.

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## NA71

Humble Analyst said:


> So if this is true the Israelis pilots would have been on a different mission and not Balakot. Getting caught trying to put the hand in the candy jar is very naughty. That is the only scenario I can think of. Otherwise coming with Indians was just plain stupid and will be surprised if they were just accompanying Indians.



What @TheTallGuy is saying with and updated/additional claim is true and this Israelis part will not be made public its a deal. The were not on a separate mission ...just part of strike mission and some said they were actually shotdown on 26th....huhhh...@TheTallGuy multiple kill claim has also been resonating from other sources on web as well.


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## CHI RULES

alphapak said:


> USA approved sale of F16 Block 70 for Bulgaria in a deal worth $1.6 billion.
> So for PAF to get 1 squadron the price would be around $3.2 billion, not
> worth it.
> 
> PAF better stick with JF 17 Block 3 and Azm project, we don't need more sanction
> prone fighter jets.



Sir if US policy allows PAK should go for V upgrades for one to two squadrons. Certainly cost shall be much lower than new ones.


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## aliyusuf

Tamiyah said:


> With S400 it can lock on their NATO enemy. They did not have this capability before because IFF system wont let them lock on to enemy aircraft.


If a leadership of a country foresees a possibility that in future some of their current allies may turn hostile on them then it makes sense to diversify their military hardware, which have been provided by those very same allies. They may feel the necessity to establish contingent alternate solutions to encounter such an eventuality. Looked at from such a point of view, makes some sort of sense why Erdogan is doing what he is doing after the Gullen event. He probably no longer trusts the west that much anymore.

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## Safriz

Khafee said:


> IA The Zulus are coming, so are the Vipers - Blk70/72 - 24 confirmed for now. The upgrades are coming as well.
> 
> IF it turns out to be false, I will apologize, dont worry. I'm not a tin can TT, to be high on something, or have an ego the size of Texas + Alaska.


O chadd yaar...
I get banned every month on things i dont even know ...
It matters not...its just another website on the internet....

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## Dazzler

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Dear Pak,
> 
> Retort with logic or counter arguements as our resident Balancer @Irfan Baloch recommended to all...
> 
> By having @Khafee banned would achieve actually what really?
> *
> Gulian hon gan sunian te o thay mirza yaar wasay...????*
> 
> Surely, that is nobody's intention...
> 
> If I may, I would request everyone to calm down.. let time resolve this myster...
> 
> Since, Khafee is holding his grounds... so let the Time be Judge not our esteemed @Oscar who certainy would have better things to do than resolve tiny inssues?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mangus



Agreed, time will tell, and frankly, i would rejoice like crazy if half of the news posted by @Khafee turns out to be true.

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## Humble Analyst

NA71 said:


> What @TheTallGuy is saying with and updated/additional claim is true and this Israelis part will not be made public its a deal. The were not on a separate mission ...just part of strike mission and some said they were actually shotdown on 26th....huhhh...@TheTallGuy multiple kill claim has also been resonating from other sources on web as well.


I am disappointed at Israelis if they were just on Balakot mission. I think they are objective and following their agenda. The reason Indians were not challenged is because the scramble was diverted to where the most threat was and hence they were shot down.
This theory is based upon the assumption that there were some other pilots shot and captured.


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## Khafee

شاھین میزایل said:


> O chadd yaar...
> I get banned every month on things i dont even know ...
> It matters not...its just another website on the internet....


You are a BM after all, on whose head you fall has to worry, not you

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## The Eagle

The problem in neighborhood is in regard to misread and misinterpreted updates about Pakistan. Pakistan never had the problem in regard to sanctions on our purchase from US. It's always about CSF /FMS. If we can pay fully, we can buy whatever was available. 

However FMS /CSF based deals have a different taste than paying for it.

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## YeBeWarned

Dazzler said:


> Trump blocked the brand spanking Zulus and you expect him to release 70s?



Bro, Zulu's weren't blocked but US just stop the Military Aid which we wanted to use to pay for these Zulu's, If we have money we can get both Zulu's and those 8 F-16's US offer around 2 years ago .CSF was cut and hence all those weapons were stopped because Pakistan did not have/want to pay fully .

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## loanranger

Humble Analyst said:


> At some point there was a problem with US on some modifications to F16 was it related to this delivery system?


No idea....


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## Humble Analyst

loanranger said:


> No idea....


I think that was harpoon related never mind

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## TheTallGuy

@Humble Analyst 
@NA71 

Nothing was shot down on 26th Feb-19. These two Mirage 2000 are shot down by JF17 Thunders on 27th Feb 19. They were flown by Gher mulki(Israelis),

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## Blueskiez 2001

TheTallGuy said:


> @Khafee @zulu @Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @RIWWIR
> Good Day Gentlemen,
> "Victory has many fathers...defeat is orphan"
> 
> Ever wondered why sudden change in US Policy? those who believe we are getting the F-16s because of Afghan-Taliban-US resolution is not entirely true. what i have deduced its because of operational performance of PAF and there is an ace which PAF holds. (2 x Israeli Pilots)
> 
> actual number should be 36 F-16C/D Block 72 (24 charlies and 12 x Delta) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ (12 x Charlie and 6 x Delta) That is 54 aircraft.
> 
> 2 x israeli pilots = 54 x F-16s Vipers..(36 x new, 18 x upgrades)
> 
> Enjoy the monsoon!
> 
> No friend! why would i increase? its 8 kills (3 x Su-30MKI, 2 x Mirage 2000, 3 x MiG-21BISON) on 27th Feb 19.



Salaam Tallguy

Still waiting for official conformation... ;-)

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## Humble Analyst

TheTallGuy said:


> @Humble Analyst
> @NA71
> 
> Nothing was shot down on 26th Feb-19. These two Mirage 2000 are shot down by JF17 Thunders on 27th Feb 19. They were flown by Gher mulki(Israelis),


As you say and that was dumb of gher mulkees


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## NA71

TheTallGuy said:


> @Humble Analyst
> @NA71
> 
> Nothing was shot down on 26th Feb-19. These two Mirage 2000 are shot down by JF17 Thunders on 27th Feb 19. They were flown by Gher mulki(Israelis),


bro ...I was referring the discussion else where. Also Gair Mulki were not operating MK2s....

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## Humble Analyst

NA71 said:


> bro ...I was referring the discussion else where. Also Gair Mulki were not operating MK2s....


Let us move on


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## Blueskiez 2001

Just one word: pressler!!

F-16 has only been delivered to Pakistan when USA needed something from Pakistan!!

In 1980ies... Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (and if memory serves me right then other options of fighter planes where turned down and PAF insisted on F-16)
1992 PRESSLER - US did not need Pakistan
1998 Suddenly the embargoed F-16 where offered as a carrot to have Pakistan not doing the nuclear tests
2001 9-11! And F-16 again on the table because of Afghanistan

So if more F-16 are coming then the questions is what is US getting....

US selling Pakistan f-16 from a business point of view: Forget it
US selling Pakistan f-16 because US want to help Pakistan: Forget it
US selling Pakistan F-16 because of good marketing: Forget it
US selling Pakistan F-16 because PAF pilots are good fighter pilots: Forget it
US selling Pakistan F-16 because of what happened 27th feb 2019: Forget it

And i won´t believe it before i see them in PAF colors landing on Pakistan soil

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## Riz

Dazzler said:


> Agreed, time will tell, and frankly, i would rejoice like crazy if half of the news posted by @Khafee turns out to be true.


Calm down bro.. And give some time to @Khafee... Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong...
If anyone think @Khafee is kidding or throwing flying arrows he is free to put him on ignore list rather then requesting MOD to ban him

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## Flight of falcon

Khafee said:


> IA The Zulus are coming, so are the Vipers - Blk70/72 - 24 confirmed for now. The upgrades are coming as well.
> 
> IF it turns out to be false, I will apologize, dont worry. I'm not a tin can TT, to be high on something, or have an ego the size of Texas + Alaska.




I know about Zulus are coming. Infact the preparations are being made for refresher courses and to send pilots to America in few weeks .

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## Bratva

TheTallGuy said:


> @Humble Analyst
> @NA71
> 
> Nothing was shot down on 26th Feb-19. These two Mirage 2000 are shot down by JF17 Thunders on 27th Feb 19. They were flown by Gher mulki(Israelis),



What You gonna do once your news turns out to be false ?

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## Flight of falcon

I never really wanted to join this forum and start posting and discussing issues with some very immature and stupid posters or Indian trolls. 

But there are some very good and knowledgeable posters and I enjoy reading what they have to say. Again we have some posters ridiculing and questioning where the money will come from and if we will be taxed more to pay for these planes. 

In the world of international politics and strategic games money is the least important factor. 

If I may remind people that Pakistan actually did not increase its defence budget this year and actually made a cut.

Now where is the money going to come from?

When we read recent head lines that Pakistan is looking at 9 billion dollars payments from CSF it did not say outstanding payments. 

If you include all the outstanding payments due (approx $2.5 billion) and add to this the price Americans are willing to pay for the orderly and respectable withdrawal from Afghanistan ( over 2-3 years) it starts to make sense. They are willing to pay Pakistan for helping them move hundreds of billions dollars worth of equipment and supplies through Pakistan. This does not even include the amount they will have to pay for us to step in and fill the vacuum once they leave. 

Do not expect any peace deal to be orderly and quick. It will require monitors, perhaps peace keepers, logistics and flood of pro government refugees that is expected to leave Afghanistan. Pakistan will bear the brunt of any peace deal or even failure of any deal. 

This time the deal negotiated will be long term and no more transactional nature. We will deliver things through our connections and manpower and fire power if necessary and Americans will pay for it. I keep repeating that Trump is heavy on optics and he needs a live TV coverage of Americans leaving victorious and not like they did in Vietnam . He wants this deal to be his biggest legacy and achievement to be talked for ever. The cost involved to achieve this? Mere 9 billion out of which at least 7 billion will be spent on American jobs and firms . 

Not a bad deal if you ask me.

And this does not even touch upon the role of Middle Eastern countries. Turkey and Malaysia recently flouted the idea to become Progressive Muslim world leaders along with Pakistan. Saudis will never accept this. 

They know Pakistanis are the only one Saudis can trust. Seeing how Americans spare no oppertunity to humiliate Saudis , recently denying weapons sales for example, they want muscle and manpower to fight which only Pakistan can provide. And eventually join the above three as the Islamic world leaders.

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## SQ8

denel said:


> Lets see but I am completely skeptical of this report. Pak has much more challenges on the economic front with the noose of circular debt. Get that house in order first then health, education.
> 
> 
> Knowing the US, they will agree to everything but then at last minute yank the carpet under the feet.
> As noted before I am highly skeptical of such a report; Modi will make many trips to US to break it. They have a lot of sway on Congress.


Even on the 1% chance this is true, the funds don’t exist and wont for another 5-10 years to cover it.

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## Maxpane

i think america is ready to use CSF for this project. they do not want to give hard cash instead they want to give that money to their company to generate employment in their country. In that way Pakistan can get the birds and they can use their money indirectly for their own good. 
Note: its just opinion

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## NA71

Bratva said:


> What You gonna do once your news turns out to be false ?



Interesting.... 

remember... Pakistan has officially discussed the Israelis Involvement in Parliament session...and it was reported by all media.


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## aliyusuf

Maxpane said:


> i think america is ready to use CSF for this project. they do not want to give hard cash instead they want to give that money to their company to generate employment in their country. In that way Pakistan can get the birds and they can use their money indirectly for their own good.
> Note: its just opinion


And in addition *maybe* some part of the money that is in the process of being recovered from the corrupt ex-PM, ex-President, ex-CM and other future corrupt big-wigs, as the part of their plea bargain, may also help foot the bill.

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## Signalian

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



If AH-1Z are cleared then CSF would have been cleared. 

PAF held the option open for second batch of 18 F-16 block 52+ under $5 billion Aid fund. If that translates to 18 F-16 block 72 with some $$$ to be paid above $5 billion then it's a massive leap of technology and capability without a major funding headache. 

If PA is going ahead with support funding for AH-1Z then PAF would do the same.

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## Signalian

Maxpane said:


> i think america is ready to use CSF for this project. they do not want to give hard cash instead they want to give that money to their company to generate employment in their country. In that way Pakistan can get the birds and they can use their money indirectly for their own good.
> Note: its just opinion



US wants PAF to buy jets from them instead of somewhere else, preferably new F-16's

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## Bratva

NA71 said:


> Interesting....
> 
> remember... *Pakistan has officially discussed the Israelis Involvement in Parliament session.*..and it was reported by all media.



There are no If's and but's. Was Israel able to hide the F-16 crash due to Syrian SAM ? They tried very hard but media broke the news. Peddlers of unverifiable should present it as their opinion, not as a fact. Fake news is never a fact until an evidence comes forth to prove that news to be a face

Can you share the link for the bold part ?

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## Maxpane

Signalian said:


> US wants PAF to buy jets from them instead of somewhere else, preferably new F-16'


sir may be not any more. they are ready for business and for various reasons . some of which are already being discussed and some are not @Khafee sir knows it better

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> Even on the 1% chance this is true, the funds don’t exist and wont for another 5-10 years to cover it.


True!

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## NA71

Bratva said:


> There are no If's and but's. Was Israel able to hide the F-16 crash due to Syrian SAM ? They tried very hard but media broke the news. Peddlers of unverifiable should present it as their opinion, not as a fact. Fake news is never a fact until an evidence comes forth to prove that news to be a face
> 
> Can you share the link for the bold part ?



https://www.dawn.com/news/1467659

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2019/03/11/indo-israel-nexus-against-pakistan/










These are few...quick search.


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## Khafee

messiach said:


> official source?


Yes Maam!

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## khanasifm

There is no notification fro dsca so just hoo haa for now already 82 pages .. wow [emoji54]


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## Armchair

khanasifm said:


> There is no notification fro dsca so just hoo haa for now already 82 pages .. wow [emoji54]



If official sources were the criteria, 95 percent of threads and posts should be deleted. I'm quite surprised why people cannot have a decent discussion and some seem only able to make disdainful remarks, and add nothing to the conversation except illogical demands. If you don't believe this, just move on, walk away, take a break, step out the back, make a new plan, hop on another bus, drop of the key,... move on... turn the page... take a nap...

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Hell has a better shot of freezing over than that happening.
> 
> The only reason why the US was offering India the (state-of the-art) F-21 was because it had certain similarities as the F-35.
> 
> But you can't be serious if you think that the US is gonna roll on the idea of India having both the S-400 & the F-35.
> 
> The US hasn't even offered them the F-35 to begin with. That is just speculation of various Think Tanks assuming that the US may take that route. Chances are slim-to-none.
> 
> The F-35 may be offered someday, 10-15 years by now. But, by then there's always the possibility that everyone (including PAF) will be operating Stealth Tech.
> 
> If the recent US/Turkey conflict has taught us one thing is that Nations have finally started to say 'No' to the United States.
> 
> India will order further Rafales that are just as good as the F-21/F-16 & get the S-400. Win-Win for them.
> 
> The only hurdle India now has to deal with is the CAATSA Act which will require diplomacy on a high level.


turkey is collobrating with germany for its design and UK for its avionics and weapons for its fighter program..in end if turkey plays its smart it might even join a JV with European countries or vice versa...

finances for fifth gen is goign to be a challenge..Pakistan IMO should look for a JV be it china(unlikley they dont need us) or turkey


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## Taimur Khurram

What has happened to this forum? The OP got showered in likes, positive ratings and support over a claim with no source?

@Khafee

Dude, come on. You're a professional. You should acquire a source.

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## Tom_Cruise

Taimur Khurram said:


> What has happened to this forum? The OP got showered in likes, positive ratings and support over a claim with no source?
> 
> @Khafee
> 
> Dude, come on. You're a professional. You should acquire a source.



Bang on. But unfortunately thats the natue of sheep mentality. No one thinks for themselves. Add to that all the youngters with a raging horn about getting shiny new F16s, no one really cares about a source as long as it keeps them happy and excited.

Next one could start a thread about PAF aquiring 100 F-22s and people will actually believe it.

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## aliyusuf

@Khafee is a professional and so isn't it possible that perhaps because of that *he is more likely to have access to insider information* than an ordinary member on this forum? 

Do members here want him to reveal the identity of his source?

Would a professional even think about doing that?

I think we should let time be the judge on this one.

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## Avicenna

aliyusuf said:


> @Khafee is a professional and so isn't it possible that perhaps because of that *he is more likely to have access to insider information* than an ordinary member on this forum?
> 
> Do members here want him to reveal the identity of his source?
> 
> Would a professional even think about doing that?
> 
> I think we should let time be the judge on this one.



I am skeptical but wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be true.


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## Khafee

Taimur Khurram said:


> What has happened to this forum? The OP got showered in likes, positive ratings and support over a claim with no source?
> 
> @Khafee
> 
> Dude, come on. You're a professional. You should acquire a source.


Thanks & Ratings in the real world = a big Zero.

I have a source, and a solid source, but it is not for all and sundry. 

If you dont like what I have to say, put me on your ignore list, and skip this thread.

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## mingle

Signalian said:


> US wants PAF to buy jets from them instead of somewhere else, preferably new F-16's


Exactly it's all business plus if they agree to release CSF then they will ask to give business LM not sukhoi of Russia

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## Awan68

Oscar said:


> Even on the 1% chance this is true, the funds don’t exist and wont for another 5-10 years to cover it.


Dont think Pakistan will ever use their own funds to go for new F 16s, if this deal is legit, it most definitely will be granted under the CSF for leverage given in Afghanistan. If this pans out then Pakistan will have played their cards pretty well as +-100 block 70 f 16s will shift the balance of airpower overwhelmingly in Pakistans favour in south east asia.

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## mingle

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> Salaam Tallguy
> 
> Still waiting for official conformation... ;-)


@tallguy know more than US remember he was asking about New F16 along @airomerix

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## Irfan Baloch

Dazzler said:


> BLK 70?? Trump blocked the brand spanking Zulus and you expect him to release 70s? Not just that, you expect the yankees to upgrade remaining fleet to V standard? I hope you are not high on something.
> 
> As for bringing MOD in the discussion, grow up mate for once. Its an open forum and when you make a tallish claim, which sounds more like a fantasy parade for now, people will ask questions, source of information etc.
> 
> IF it turns out to be true, then I will apologise to you. You should have courage to do the same if it turned out to be a farce. Your claims are so outlandish that no one in their right mind would accept them, for now at least.


You have right to challenge and give counter point with respect and reason as you just did

The worse thing is .. nothing turns up and Haqqani laughs at us for blocking our Zulus
Best is.. he chokes on his own waste as we get some upgrades for wherever
Interesting times


Dazzler said:


> @Oscar @Irfan Baloch . Take note of the red part. Is he even a professional??
> 
> Thanks.


Wont read too much into it
As for now its all speculation

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## danger007

The Eagle said:


> The problem in neighborhood is in regard to misread and misinterpreted updates about Pakistan. Pakistan never had the problem in regard to sanctions on our purchase from US. It's always about CSF /FMS. If we can pay fully, we can buy whatever was available.
> 
> However FMS /CSF based deals have a different taste than paying for it.



May be US restri


Taimur Khurram said:


> What has happened to this forum? The OP got showered in likes, positive ratings and support over a claim with no source?
> 
> @Khafee
> 
> Dude, come on. You're a professional. You should acquire a source.










From dawn... 125 m $ worth program and service maintenance and continuous monitoring ???


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## airomerix

mingle said:


> @tallguy know more than US remember he was asking about New F16 along @airomerix



Guys. 

Hold your horses. We are very far from reality right now. 

US is willing to provide us the F-16s BUT on the full price. Trump means business. We are working out ways to finance the jets but some news will come soon. 

And yes F-16 Block 72 is our answer to Rafale. The good thing is they are readily available. The timeline from signing of deal to first delivery is less than 2 years.

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## Irfan Baloch

Dazzler said:


> Agreed, time will tell, and frankly, i would rejoice like crazy if half of the news posted by @Khafee turns out to be true.


Thats it
And difference of opinions for now keeps the discussion live

I inquired about this claim and got a ni comment neither denial nor confirmation 

Understandable when we have indian lobby and people like Hussain haqqani in USA

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## danger007

airomerix said:


> Guys.
> 
> Hold your horses. We are very far from reality right now.
> 
> US is willing to provide us the F-16s BUT on the full price. Trump means business. We are working out ways to finance the jets but some news will come soon.
> 
> And yes F-16 Block 72 is our answer to Rafale. The good thing is they are readily available. The timeline from signing of deal to first delivery is less than 2 years.




Readily available ??? Those are not toys to buy on spot...


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## Khafee

khanasifm said:


> There is no notification fro dsca so just hoo haa for now already 82 pages .. wow [emoji54]


In the past, experience tells me, for Commercial Sales, there are no DSCA notifications. 

In this particular case I think there will be, but not sure at the moment.

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## Signalian

airomerix said:


> Guys.
> 
> Hold your horses. We are very far from reality right now.
> 
> US is willing to provide us the F-16s BUT on the full price. Trump means business. We are working out ways to finance the jets but some news will come soon.
> 
> And yes F-16 Block 72 is our answer to Rafale. The good thing is they are readily available. The timeline from signing of deal to first delivery is less than 2 years.



PAF will not buy at full price. The hint of csf must be there to generate interest from PAF and keep the negotiations of this acquisition alive. Being a business man means making deals successfully, no deal is an utter loss for both sides.

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> Guys.
> 
> Hold your horses. We are very far from reality right now.
> 
> US is willing to provide us the F-16s BUT on the full price. Trump means business. We are working out ways to finance the jets but some news will come soon.
> 
> And yes F-16 Block 72 is our answer to Rafale. The good thing is they are readily available. The timeline from signing of deal to first delivery is less than 2 years.


Is number is 24 or 34?? 120 F16s blk 70\72 it's great deterrent again Rafale along JF-17 blk 3 and blk 1&2 with AESA r good


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## YeBeWarned

airomerix said:


> Guys.
> 
> Hold your horses. We are very far from reality right now.
> 
> US is willing to provide us the F-16s BUT on the full price. Trump means business. We are working out ways to finance the jets but some news will come soon.
> 
> And yes F-16 Block 72 is our answer to Rafale. The good thing is they are readily available. The timeline from signing of deal to first delivery is less than 2 years.



I don't doubt @Khafee and his source that this news to be completely false, he don't make stupid claims so if he is saying than he must have heard from a respectable source, and I won't even go in details of how we will pay , cause we all know through CSF because no way Pakistan can afford 24-36 F-16 Block 70's in next 5 years. But one thing that is bothering me is that What if just to stop this possible sales of F-16 blk 70 to Pakistan IAF can try to renegotiate AMCA with Americans to reach some sort of deal to get F-21's? and what if they actually did sign some sort of deal ? So there goes the Pakistan's chance to get newly blk 70/72's . 

What do you think ?

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> In the past, experience tells me, for Commercial Sales, there are no DSCA notifications.
> 
> In this particular case I think there will be, but not sure at the moment.


So it won't go to congress??

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## Khafee

mingle said:


> So it won't go to congress??


I think it will, but at the moment, I'm not sure which route it will take.

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## danger007

Irfan Baloch said:


> Thats it
> And difference of opinions for now keeps the discussion live
> 
> I inquired about this claim and got a ni comment neither denial nor confirmation
> 
> Understandable when we have indian lobby and people like Hussain haqqani in USA





If it is such secret deal.. what is the point to open thread in public forum???.. i don't understand... but i feel something like zarvan...

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> I think it will, but at the moment, I'm not sure which route it will take.


i know the route its toward AMRAG  INSHALLAH


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## airomerix

danger007 said:


> Readily available ??? Those are not toys to buy on spot...



Please refer to the timeline I have mentioned. 



Signalian said:


> PAF will not buy at full price. The hint of csf must be there to generate interest from PAF and keep the negotiations of this acquisition alive. Being a business man means making deals successfully, no deal is an utter loss for both sides.



When was the last time you found trump to be reasonable? (For the opposite party) 

Its a $8 Billion dollar cheque for Pakistan. For now. 



mingle said:


> Is number is 24 or 34?? 120 F16s blk 70\72 it's great deterrent again Rafale along JF-17 blk 3 and blk 1&2 with AESA r good



The original requirement is for 36. Two squadrons. Cant tell which ones will replace what. 



Starlord said:


> I don't doubt @Khafee and his source that this news to be completely false, he don't make stupid claims so if he is saying than he must have heard from a respectable source, and I won't even go in details of how we will pay , cause we all know through CSF because no way Pakistan can afford 24-36 F-16 Block 70's in next 5 years. But one thing that is bothering me is that What if just to stop this possible sales of F-16 blk 70 to Pakistan IAF can try to renegotiate AMCA with Americans to reach some sort of deal to get F-21's? and what if they actually did sign some sort of deal ? So there goes the Pakistan's chance to get newly blk 70/72's .
> 
> What do you think ?



It is clear that Indians are not budging to US equipment for their front line fighter. The change in Modi's government would have been a welcome news since it would have stalled Rafale deal. Now India will go for 100+ in numbers for Rafale. Completing its requirement for Mig 21 replacement. Next up is Mig 29 replacement which is being catered through additional Su-30 flankers.

Now the lobbyists will start their work in capitol. India has invested in several types of platforms of US origin. C-17s, C-130's, P-8s, AH-64s, CH-47s and what not. This valuation of these deals is still more than what Pakistan has given US in the last 72 years in terms of defense purchases. With most being CSF's. 

So now the game has gone to strategic level. The Pakistan's role in Afghanistan will be a game changer. If we support US in the Afghan game. We are game. F-16V's are coming to Sargodha in 2022-23.

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## Khafee

danger007 said:


> May be US restri
> 
> View attachment 571300
> 
> 
> 
> From dawn... 125 m $ worth program and service maintenance and continuous monitoring ???



Forget dawn. Here is the DSCA notification for the $125m TST

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sal...urity-team-tst-continued-support-f-16-program

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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> Lets see but I am completely skeptical of this report. Pak has much more challenges on the economic front with the noose of circular debt. Get that house in order first then health, education.
> 
> 
> Knowing the US, they will agree to everything but then at last minute yank the carpet under the feet.
> As noted before I am highly skeptical of such a report; Modi will make many trips to US to break it. They have a lot of sway on Congress.


if trump says yes, and ask republicans link it to war efforts, a couple of democrats will easily be swayed by LM & local agenda..the problem is if blame game continues than even the republicans will say no...the very reason why CSF has been a bipartisan issues always approved without hurdles

the power simply lies if the defense committee aka pentagon states Pakistan is doing good, it will go through, if they continue to state they Pakistan is doing double game, it will fall on its face

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## Signalian

airomerix said:


> Please refer to the timeline I have mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> When was the last time you found trump to be reasonable? (For the opposite side).
> 
> So now the game has gone to strategic level. The Pakistan's role in Afghanistan wi23.



When was the last time PAF showed interest To go forward for new F-16 from US without funding. This is not 80’s.

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## airomerix

Signalian said:


> When was the last time PAF showed interest To go forward for new F-16 from US without funding. This is not 80’s.



Our very first F-16s were purchased through a Saudi loan of $500M. 

I never said these F-16Vs will be purchased upfront.

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## YeBeWarned

airomerix said:


> It is clear that Indians are not budging to US equipment for their front line fighter. The change in Modi's government would have been a welcome news since it would have stalled Rafale deal. Now India will go for 100+ in numbers for Rafale. Completing its requirement for Mig 21 replacement. Next up is Mig 29 replacement which is being catered through additional Su-30 flankers.



It seems Indians are still skeptical to put US top of the line system as their primary ones . but they Defense industry is so under the claws of Russians that it wont be easy to escape, I can not believe that Russians have no monopoly over Indian Defense needs and have a strong Lobbying in New Delhi . So its safe to say they will be going for X numbers of Rafale, with Additional Su30's ..



airomerix said:


> Now the lobbyists will start their work in capitol. India has invested in several types of platforms of US origin. C-17s, C-130's, P-8s, AH-64s, CH-47s and what not. This valuation of these deals is still more than what Pakistan has given US in the last 72 years in terms of defense purchases. With most being CSF's.



American top of the line weapons were never meant to be in Pakistan, You know which lobby is even more Powerful than Indians ? The Jewish Lobby , and one way or another Jews of Israel see us a threat . I am sure you have noticed that in past IA got mostly supportive role systems like C-17's, C-130 , CH-47 and now they are getting offensive weapons like P-8i and Apache . We just cannot buy American weapons without CSF that is one harsh truth  



airomerix said:


> So now the game has gone to strategic level. The Pakistan's role in Afghanistan will be a game changer. If we support US in the Afghan game. We are game. F-16V's are coming to Sargodha in 2022-23.



Afghanistan will become hot bed in near Future, and so far Trump is giving vibes that he actually want to pull out from Afghanistan with a dignified Position, and he will do it just to show the American people that it was him that put America interest first by Pulling off from unwanted wars, but again it wont be a full withdrawal I believe US will keep some sort of Presence in Afghanistan, be it CIA , mercenaries , Contractors or 1-2 small bases , And who else can make sure of that happen better than Pakistan ?????  If American actually release the CSF with option to buy F-16 blk 70's, than it wont be because of Afghanistan solution but it will be for a Assurance from Pakistan to Protect US presence and its interest in Afghanistan after they leave .

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## Falcon26

ziaulislam said:


> if trump says yes, and ask republicans link it to war efforts, a couple of democrats will easily be swayed by LM & local agenda..the problem is if blame game continues than even the republicans will say no...the very reason why CSF has been a bipartisan issues always approved without hurdles
> 
> the power simply lies if the defense committee aka pentagon states Pakistan is doing good, it will go through, if they continue to state they Pakistan is doing double game, it will fall on its face





danger007 said:


> If it is such secret deal.. what is the point to open thread in public forum???.. i don't understand... but i feel something like zarvan...



We have seen these types of threads before. Mostly based on heresy and whatnot. It’s been more than 72 hours since this thread was posted and thus far, no one else has confirmed this “exclusive.” PDF is known for these types of threads.

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## airomerix

Starlord said:


> Afghanistan will become hot bed in near Future, and so far Trump is giving vibes that he actually want to pull out from Afghanistan with a dignified Position, and he will do it just to show the American people that it was him that put America interest first by Pulling off from unwanted wars, but again it wont be a full withdrawal I believe US will keep some sort of Presence in Afghanistan, be it CIA , mercenaries , Contractors or 1-2 small bases , And who else can make sure of that happen better than Pakistan ?????  If American actually release the CSF with option to buy F-16 blk 70's, than it wont be because of Afghanistan solution but it will be for a Assurance from Pakistan to Protect US presence and its interest in Afghanistan after they leave .



Agreed. 

Again, the Afghan solution is not necessarily the final solution with Afghani people winning. A graceful escape for US from Afghanistan is the actual solution. And they need our assistance in producing such conditions to aid their withdrawal.

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## gangsta_rap

Starlord said:


> American top of the line weapons were never meant to be in Pakistan, You know which lobby is even more Powerful than Indians ? The Jewish Lobby , and one way or another Jews of Israel see us a threat . I am sure you have noticed that in past IA got mostly supportive role systems like C-17's, C-130 , CH-47 and now they are getting offensive weapons like P-8i and Apache . We just cannot buy American weapons without CSF that is one harsh truth



That lobby now has a significant Saudi influence present in it too (a la Kushner - Bin Salman connection).

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## Imran Khan

sheikh chillis of PDF these days 
trump will release 9bn$
we will get 5bn F-16 block-72
rest of 4bn we will get cobras and hellfires 
and then we will have modern fleet and suddenly some 50 years old mirage fly sheikh chillis look up

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## airomerix

Imran Khan said:


> sheikh chillis of PDF these days
> trump will release 9bn$
> we will get 5bn F-16 block-72
> rest of 4bn we will get cobras and hellfires
> and then we will have modern fleet and suddenly some 50 years old mirage fly sheikh chillis look up



100% Agreed. :grin:


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## Imran Khan

airomerix said:


> 100% Agreed. :grin:


trump is not that stupid who give away 9bn$ .not in his dreams . its not same trump was fighting legal war for 2.5bn$ wall at Maxico border ?


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## airomerix

Imran Khan said:


> trump is not that stupid who give away 9bn$ .not in his dreams . its not same trump was fighting legal war for 2.5bn$ wall at Maxico border ?



Trump is not the ONLY sheikh out there. Saudi's and Qatari's live too.

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## danger007

Falcon26 said:


> We have seen these types of threads before. Mostly based on heresy and whatnot. It’s been more than 72 hours since this thread was posted and thus far, no one else has confirmed this “exclusive.” PDF is known for these types of threads.




My point is, if he knows there is some secret deal between USA and Pak... you should keep it secret... PDF is not any secret society or something... USA is skeptical about their technology.... unlike other countries, USA put lot restrictions and strings ... let alone high tech add ons like in F 21..


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## airomerix

danger007 said:


> My point is, if he knows there is some secret deal between USA and Pak... you should keep it secret... PDF is not any secret society or something... USA is skeptical about their technology.... unlike other countries, USA put lot restrictions and strings ... let alone high tech add ons like in F 21..



Block 52's were fairly hi-tech when we got them. That is not an issue.

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## Imran Khan

danger007 said:


> My point is, if he knows there is some secret deal between USA and Pak... you should keep it secret... PDF is not any secret society or something... USA is skeptical about their technology.... unlike other countries, USA put lot restrictions and strings ... let alone high tech add ons like in F 21..


its not secret deal because it is not a deal at all . relax its just 
jhapatna palatna palat ker jhaptna 
lahoo garam rakhny ka hai ik bahana

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## Nilgiri

Falcon26 said:


> We have seen these types of threads before. Mostly based on heresy and whatnot. It’s been more than 72 hours since this thread was posted and thus far, no one else has confirmed this “exclusive.” PDF is known for these types of threads.



Give it 7200 hours then ....and see where it stands.

72 hours is more the kind of time that it took the US to produces results on FATF greylisting of certain country...by getting saudi/GCC to change vote....a result estimated to cost 10 billion dollars a year financially to that certain country (as estimated by its own govt minister)...and after all that ppl still talking about loans, and CSF and 50/50 funding and whatever else runs in their head.

Some folks in here really want to peddle some daydreaming noises....by just relying on believing hard enough. They don't want to accept the ship has sailed long ago and is in completely different ocean now, esp after abbotabad.

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## danger007

Imran Khan said:


> its not secret deal because it is not a deal at all . relax its just
> jhapatna palatna palat ker jhaptna
> lahoo garam rakhny ka hai ik bahana


Lol you are here..

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## Irfan Baloch

danger007 said:


> If it is such secret deal.. what is the point to open thread in public forum???.. i don't understand... but i feel something like zarvan...


Plausible deniability 

The claim is by a forum poster and he quoted himself as source
People started talking and some rejoiced some got burnt some remain cautious 

Since related stories like 125m support plan coincided with this claim so it attracted interest

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## Falcon26

danger007 said:


> My point is, if he knows there is some secret deal between USA and Pak... you should keep it secret... PDF is not any secret society or something... USA is skeptical about their technology.... unlike other countries, USA put lot restrictions and strings ... let alone high tech add ons like in F 21..



Geo-strategic interests rather than technology will be the main determinant. Pakistan has a long history of using American weapon systems and has an excellent reputation when it comes to proper usage of these weapons.

The pivot to Asia strategy relies on India as counterbalance to China. Granted that India’s inability to counter China has been exposed in recent months, but the strategy hasn’t changed. Indian lobby in D.C. is highly exaggerated and it’s potency seems to exist only in the heads of Pakistan’s. There are strategic convergences between the US & India but that has nothing to do with the Indian lobby.

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## danger007

Falcon26 said:


> Geo-strategic interests rather than technology will be the main determinant. Pakistan has a long history of using American weapon systems and has an excellent reputation when it comes to proper usage of these weapons.
> 
> The pivot to Asia strategy relies on India as counterbalance to China. Granted that India’s inability to counter China has been exposed in recent months, but the strategy hasn’t changed. Indian lobby in D.C. is highly exaggerated and it’s potency seems to exist only in the heads of Pakistan’s. There are strategic convergences between the US & India but that has nothing to do with the Indian lobby.




Pakistan not going to be the counter ???.. USA already aware and worried if chinese get hands on their technology.... geo politics is important... SCS is very crucial for US now.. am aware of it... still US don't need to give u such potent platforms..


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## ali_raza

Nilgiri said:


> Give it 7200 hours then ....and see where it stands.
> 
> 72 hours is more the kind of time that it took the US to produces results on FATF greylisting of certain country...by getting saudi/GCC to change vote....a result estimated to cost 10 billion dollars a year financially to that certain country (as estimated by its own govt minister)...and after all that ppl still talking about loans, and CSF and 50/50 funding and whatever else runs in their head.
> 
> Some folks in here really want to peddle some daydreaming noises....by just relying on believing hard enough. They don't want to accept the ship has sailed long ago and is in completely different ocean now, esp after abbotabad.


hold on buddy boy.
saudia wasnt a full member to begin with 
r u guys still struggling from trumps kashmiri statement i heard u guys couldn’t handle the pressure and pleaded to change topic and move on.
why?
could face the big dady.
ur gangu mind can’t even imagine the cards we hold.
sending cheap labor to US wouldn’t gona cut it u know 
u have to be a proper martial race to command respect 
now that we r back in business in dc why not modi run and hug trump again this time kiss his feet too(charan chuna)
see if it might soften his heart.
or else h1b ban is gona make india into slum it once was.
juicy days ahead buddy boy

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## Thorough Pro

Not every plane is a Tejas, keep your experience to yourself.



danger007 said:


> Readily available ??? Those are not toys to buy on spot...

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## Keysersoze

NA71 said:


> calculations? we currently have only 7 Bn Dollars in our foreign reserves.... we need to urgently raise these reserves.


I merely calculated how much it would cost to pay for the alleged purchase. I have not calculated where the money was coming from or even the likelihood of the deal going through. That is for others.

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## Falcon26

danger007 said:


> Pakistan not going to be the counter ???.. USA already aware and worried if chinese get hands on their technology.... geo politics is important... SCS is very crucial for US now.. am aware of it... still US don't need to give u such potent platforms..



Why would pakistan give China access to American weapons? Does a precedence exist? Has Pakistan ever illegally given access of American weapons to China? Focus on the facts and history more than hypotheticals.

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## messiach

Well, if you say so. I will check next week.


Khafee said:


> Yes Maam!

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## Khafee

messiach said:


> Well, if you say so. I will check next week.


If I have your permission, can I open a PM?

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## danger007

Thorough Pro said:


> Not every plane is a Tejas, keep your experience to yourself.




Why you are going for off topic.. ??


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

imadul said:


> Hope pindi wont sell cheap this time.
> Would Afganistan not have a 4th grave?


They have a World Cup wining Captain at the helms this time!!! And, that too trained at the households of the Imperialists....

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## New World

Zarvan said:


> Money issue would get resolved don't that is our headache but beasts are coming, specially after recent Balakot clashes LockHead Martin is very pleased by us. They consider giving us F-16 which would kick Indian best planes very rewarding for their empire.



Hazrat, please don't say that PAF is going to again ditch J-10 for a squadron of F-16..


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## danger007

Falcon26 said:


> Why would pakistan give China access to American weapons? Does a precedence exist? Has Pakistan ever illegally given access of American weapons to China? Focus on the facts and history more than hypotheticals.





USA is skeptical about it... read it..


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Falcon26 said:


> Geo-strategic interests rather than technology will be the main determinant. Pakistan has a long history of using American weapon systems and has an excellent reputation when it comes to proper usage of these weapons.
> 
> The pivot to Asia strategy relies on India as counterbalance to China. Granted that India’s inability to counter China has been exposed in recent months, but the strategy hasn’t changed. Indian lobby in D.C. is highly exaggerated and it’s potency seems to exist only in the heads of Pakistan’s. There are strategic convergences between the US & India but that has nothing to do with the Indian lobby.


White men speak with a forked tongue!!! It’s the skill to learn to decipher it....

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## messiach

Yes.


Khafee said:


> If I have your permission, can I open a PM?

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## aliyusuf

danger007 said:


> Why you are going for off topic.. ??


More valid question is why are you even involved on this topic? We don't go uninvited on your bharat rat shit forums nor do we want to. Why do you even come here? This is purely a Pakistan related topic in which we are discussing the the issue. Speaks volumes that you are participating here. 

"Maan na maan mein tera mehman. Baray besharam ho sir ji."

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## iby32

If the news is true why we getting just 24 why not 32-36 to replace to junk mirrages squadrons


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## HttpError

Instead of doubting the credibility of this news, I always wonder why couldn't Pakistan reach its economic potential and buy these so-called Hi-tech platforms. If we had money, neither USA nor Russia would ever refuse to sell us any product. I say let us fix our economy and then we wouldn't have to worry about all these shenanigans of other countries.

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## Thorough Pro

I am very much on topic, who brought in toys?



danger007 said:


> Why you are going for off topic.. ??

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

HttpError said:


> Instead of doubting the credibility of this news, I always wonder why couldn't Pakistan reach its economic potential and buy these so-called Hi-tech platforms. If we had money, neither USA nor Russia would ever refuse to sell us any product. I say let us fix our economy and then we wouldn't have to worry about all these shenanigans of other countries.


Better still build your own ones....

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## Taimur Khurram

Khafee said:


> I have a source, and a solid source,



Then tell us what that source is. 



danger007 said:


> From dawn... 125 m $ worth program and service maintenance and continuous monitoring ???



That's not the same thing.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Awan68 said:


> Dont think Pakistan will ever use their own funds to go for new F 16s, if this deal is legit, it most definitely will be granted under the CSF for leverage given in Afghanistan. If this pans out then Pakistan will have played their cards pretty well as +-100 block 70 f 16s will shift the balance of airpower overwhelmingly in Pakistans favour in south east asia.


After 02-28 blunder of going near the MAD option from Modi it may be the plan....

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## Khafee

Taimur Khurram said:


> Then tell us what that source is.
> 
> .



Patience, my friend, wait for it.

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## Syed1.

Guys Pakistan will also get the F-35...... mubarak to all Pakistanis. Well done IK and General Bajwa





Don't ask my source, I have a source, just take my word for it

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## Irfan Baloch

Taimur Khurram said:


> Then tell us what that source is.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not the same thing.


he himself is the source (for now) and its been bought elsewhere causing a lot of panic 
which is very pleasing 



Syed1. said:


> Guys Pakistan will also get the F-35...... mubarak to all Pakistanis. Well done IK and General Bajwa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ask my source, I have a source, just take my word for it


dont push it. a one liner wont get you anywhere
make a case and sell it

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

TheTallGuy said:


> @Humble Analyst
> @NA71
> 
> Nothing was shot down on 26th Feb-19. These two Mirage 2000 are shot down by JF17 Thunders on 27th Feb 19. They were flown by Gher mulki(Israelis),


If true, the IAF must have expected to circumvent the “jinx” of the Pak airspace via the _Ehl-i Kitap_!!! If it had failed too it’s the time to panic!!! No wonder the Hindutuva leadership lost all hope and wanted to go for a MAD induced mass suicide!! Erstwhile this option was only for their women....

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> he himself is the source (for now) and its been bought elsewhere causing a lot of panic
> which is very pleasing


Those monkeys have more bad news coming , besides the vipers

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Those monkeys have more bad news coming , besides the vipers


Aouch let me guess PAC3, Maybe Maybe another type jet for Navy



mingle said:


> Aouch let me guess PAC3, Maybe Maybe another type jet for Navy


@Khafee my feelings r we will go double digit in billion terms let's see what other Goodies stored for Us but we should get EDA stock of Maxx pro that we need at western border

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## Khafee

mingle said:


> Aouch let me guess PAC3, Maybe Maybe another type jet for Navy
> 
> 
> @Khafee my feelings r we will go double digit in billion terms let's see what other Goodies stored for Us but we should get EDA stock of Maxx pro that we need at western border


24 Vipers to loggon ko hazam nahi hoa, akhir aap chatay kiya ho

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## denel

Maxpane said:


> i think america is ready to use CSF for this project. they do not want to give hard cash instead they want to give that money to their company to generate employment in their country. In that way Pakistan can get the birds and they can use their money indirectly for their own good.
> Note: its just opinion


Noted; it is a circular use of funds which is normal for both US and China to drive productivity on the home turf. Lets see - time will tell.


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## mingle

Khafee said:


> 24 Vipers to loggon ko hazam nahi hoa, akhir aap chatay kiya ho


Pora pentagon islamabad move kerna Hai

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## Zarmeena Rashad

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Dear Pak,
> 
> Retort with logic or counter arguements as our resident Balancer @Irfan Baloch recommended to all...
> 
> By having @Khafee banned would achieve actually what really?
> *
> Gulian hon gan sunian te o thay mirza yaar wasay...????*
> 
> Surely, that is nobody's intention...
> 
> If I may, I would request everyone to calm down.. let time resolve this myster...
> 
> Since, Khafee is holding his grounds... so let the Time be Judge not our esteemed @Oscar who certainy would have better things to do than resolve tiny inssues?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mangus


You are very wise sir.I have been lurking around this forum for long and I for one believe whatever @Khafee says because He has never lied till now and his love for his country can be easily seen.

Cheers!

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mingle said:


> Aouch let me guess PAC3, Maybe Maybe another type jet for Navy
> 
> 
> @Khafee my feelings r we will go double digit in billion terms let's see what other Goodies stored for Us but we should get EDA stock of Maxx pro that we need at western border


Who knows the Pentagon may have now become mad to test their gadgets, the curtailed versions of course, in the Indo-Pak theater!!!

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## Humble Analyst

So this Pakistan will get what is she giving back just the Afghan deal or...?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Even on the 1% chance this is true, the funds don’t exist and wont for another 5-10 years to cover it.


In terms of the F-16s, I think the order of priority would be: upgrading the Block-52+ and as many of the MLUs to F-16V-standards, and acquiring the AIM-120D and AIM-9X. Beyond that, it's luxury.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well , the person of the hour stated

25 F16 Block 70
and then Upgrade of our whole 75-85 F16 Fleet to Block 70 standard

Now I personally am not aware too much on the structure of the F16 Block C/D models Pakistan Air-force presently have however, that would be a massive boost to go from Block C/D standard to modern standard

Of course the F16 Block 70 will still be may be nothing compared to the Super Hornets or F22
but in term of F16 and 4.5 generation birds it would put Pakistan in a nice situation not requiring a Stealth upgrade immediately

Considering India is getting the French Rafael , 30-40 birds it would be a timely upgrade for Pakistan Airforce

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## mingle

Humble Analyst said:


> So this Pakistan will get what is she giving back just the Afghan deal or...?


Afghanistan is one issue as kugelman said from various Govt and deep state sources this Govt present them an opportunity to secure whole region not only Afghanistan I believe we will keep China and CPEC but we will also give space to US and Pak will protect theior interests along with GCC country yes my take we will not buy Russian weapons beyond Hinds and engine of JF-17 some other minimal stuff



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well , the person of the hour stated
> 
> 25 F16 Block 70
> and then Upgrade of our whole 75-85 F16 Fleet to Block 70 standard
> 
> Now I personally am not aware too much on the structure of the F16 Block C/D models Pakistan Air-force presently have however, that would be a massive boost to go from Block C/D standard to modern standard
> 
> Of course the F16 Block 70 will still be may be nothing compared to the Super Hornets or F22
> but in term of F16 and 4.5 generation birds it would put Pakistan in a nice situation not requiring a Stealth upgrade immediately
> 
> Considering India is getting the French Rafael , 30-40 birds it would be a timely upgrade for Pakistan Airforce


F22 BEYOND our reach blk 70 along 18 CF18 for Navy would be great

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## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In terms of the F-16s, I think the order of priority would be: upgrading the Block-52+ and as many of the MLUs to F-16V-standards, and acquiring the AIM-120D and AIM-9X. Beyond that, it's luxury.



How many F-16's we have in our inventory so far ? and can you upgrade the block 15's to V Standard ?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Starlord said:


> How many F-16's we have in our inventory so far ? and can you upgrade the block 15's to V Standard ?


18 Block-52+ and 56-59 F-16A/B Block-15 MLUs and ADFs. 

Yes, you can upgrade Block-15s to V-standard (well, you an at least upgrade the radar and avionics).

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 18 Block-52+ and 56-59 F-16A/B Block-15 MLUs and ADFs.
> 
> Yes, you can upgrade Block-15s to V-standard (well, you an at least upgrade the radar and avionics).


Bilal we should also try get used Airframes like from Belgium or Jorden may US has some about 25 jets upgrade is 1 billion if we get 100 total old airframe along these 24 new that 124 odd F16s a awesome number

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## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 18 Block-52+ and 56-59 F-16A/B Block-15 MLUs and ADFs.
> 
> Yes, you can upgrade Block-15s to V-standard (well, you an at least upgrade the radar and avionics).



What ? 
18+56= 74 ? 
18+59= 77 ? 
I thought we have had around 83-85 F-16's , with 2-4 lost in crash .. that is not a very decent Number compared to our neighbors increasing numbers.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Starlord said:


> What ?
> 18+56= 74 ?
> 18+59= 77 ?
> I thought we have had around 83-85 F-16's , with 2-4 lost in crash .. that is not a very decent Number compared to our neighbors increasing numbers.


74-77 in total. Even if we had every F-16 (with no recent crashes), it would have been 78 aircraft tops (60 A/B + 18 Block-52+). The PAF's scope since the late 1980s was to build a fleet of around 100 F-16s plus an additional 10 or so in storage as reserves. So, in 2004 the plan was for 55 Block-52 & 60 MLU; and then the earthquake happened...

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

aliyusuf said:


> @Khafee is a professional and so isn't it possible that perhaps because of that *he is more likely to have access to insider information* than an ordinary member on this forum?
> 
> Do members here want him to reveal the identity of his source?
> 
> Would a professional even think about doing that?
> 
> I think we should let time be the judge on this one.


No credit when everything is clear like broad day light and is visible to every body!!! Credit goes to projecting on the unseen based on signs, signatures, deductions, evidences, proofs, references, premises, inferences etc., and then come out to be true....

@Khafee is dwelling on this hard part!! And, our job is to find the relevance, correlation, corroboration etc. based on our individual understanding, finding, research, scholastic aptitude etc.....

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## YeBeWarned

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 74-77 in total. Even if we had every F-16 (with no recent crashes), it would have been 78 aircraft tops (60 A/B + 18 Block-52+). The PAF's scope since the late 1980s was to build a fleet of around 100 F-16s plus an additional 10 or so in storage as reserves. So, in 2004 the plan was for 55 Block-52 & 60 MLU; and then the earthquake happened...



So if we somehow get our hands of new 18 Block 52's or 70's than we are back on track for our original numbers which PAF wanted, and upgrading the rest of Fleet can give us a fighting chance, so 74+18(New)=92 pretty fair numbers .

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Starlord said:


> .... than we are back on track for our original numbers which PAF wanted, and upgrading the rest of Fleet can give us a fighting chance, so 74+18(New)=92 pretty fair numbers .


All “Gladiators” are supposed to have a “fighting chance” while inside the arena to be fare!!! Only the most competent one wins the “wooden sword” along with freedom....

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## YeBeWarned

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> All “Gladiators” are supposed to have a “fighting chance” while inside the arena to be fare!!! Only the most competent one wins the “wooden sword” along with freedom....



I have strong feeling that USA is offering us new Planes and with option to upgrade the older versions . because the larger the Power balance between India and Pakistan the larger the threat for a Full on Nuclear war, and Now America wants to reassure the Balance of Power in region .Indians are spending Billions of dollars on its AF alone, So Pakistan needs some new/upgraded toys.

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## cloud4000

Show me the money.

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## Humble Analyst

Starlord said:


> I have strong feeling that USA is offering us new Planes and with option to upgrade the older versions . because the larger the Power balance between India and Pakistan the larger the threat for a Full on Nuclear war, and Now America wants to reassure the Balance of Power in region .Indians are spending Billions of dollars on its AF alone, So Pakistan needs some new/upgraded toys.


But life is give and take what is Pakistan giving surely not the full price?
Let us see what comes of it


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## YeBeWarned

Humble Analyst said:


> But life is give and take what is Pakistan giving surely not the full price?
> Let us see what comes of it



I already explain in one of my previous post .
Pakistan will use CSF funds to pay for these F-16 ( if bought ), secondly Pakistan will ensure that American Interest remains alive in Afghanistan .



cloud4000 said:


> Show me the money.



Why ? are you a Prostitute ? will you strip if we show you the money? Or do you give lap dance ?

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## cloud4000

Starlord said:


> I already explain in one of my previous post .
> Pakistan will use CSF funds to pay for these F-16 ( if bought ), secondly Pakistan will ensure that American Interest remains alive in Afghanistan .
> 
> 
> 
> Why ? are you a Prostitute ? will you strip if we show you the money? Or do you give lap dance ?



No, I just find it strange that Pakiatanis on PDF are writing a shopping list for new toys from Uncle Sam, using CSF money. Money that can be better used elsewhere like forestalling IMF loans.

All based on the assumption that Pakistan will get all CSF money it claims it is owed. It will probably get a fraction of it, depending on Congress’s mood,

I find the thread interesting. It’s like a wet dream for F-16 fanboys.


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## mingle

cloud4000 said:


> Show me the money.


Munu note wakha Mayra mood banay



cloud4000 said:


> No, I just find it strange that Pakiatanis on PDF are writing a shopping list for new toys from Uncle Sam, using CSF money. Money that can be better used elsewhere like forestalling IMF loans.
> 
> All based on the assumption that Pakistan will get all CSF money it claims it is owed. It will probably get a fraction of it, depending on Congress’s mood,
> 
> I find the thread interesting. It’s like a wet dream for F-16 fanboys.


Looks like it's morning in india u guys woke up good


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## YeBeWarned

cloud4000 said:


> No, I just find it strange that Pakiatanis on PDF are writing a shopping list for new toys from Uncle Sam, using CSF money. Money that can be better used elsewhere like forestalling IMF loans.
> 
> All based on the assumption that Pakistan will get all CSF money it claims it is owed. It will probably get a fraction of it, depending on Congress’s mood,
> 
> I find the thread interesting. It’s like a wet dream for F-16 fanboys.



You know this CSF or Military Aid, is basically used only to buy American Weapons , that money can't be used elsewhere but again, explaining something to a Indian related to Pakistan is like Teaching a Monkey how to use Iphone .

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## Syed1.

Starlord said:


> You know this CSF or Military Aid, is basically used only to buy American Weapons , that money can't be used elsewhere but again, explaining something to a Indian related to Pakistan is like Teaching a Monkey how to use Iphone .


After a few tries even monkey will get the hang of it, but good luck getting through to an Indian.

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## YeBeWarned

Syed1. said:


> After a few tries even monkey will get the hang of it, but good luck getting through to an Indian.



Like every other good human, I had to give it try

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## alimobin memon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well , the person of the hour stated
> 
> 25 F16 Block 70
> and then Upgrade of our whole 75-85 F16 Fleet to Block 70 standard
> 
> Now I personally am not aware too much on the structure of the F16 Block C/D models Pakistan Air-force presently have however, that would be a massive boost to go from Block C/D standard to modern standard
> 
> Of course the F16 Block 70 will still be may be nothing compared to the Super Hornets or F22
> but in term of F16 and 4.5 generation birds it would put Pakistan in a nice situation not requiring a Stealth upgrade immediately
> 
> Considering India is getting the French Rafael , 30-40 birds it would be a timely upgrade for Pakistan Airforce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 571305
> 
> View attachment 571306


Super hornet or hornet. Are they really better overall than f16 ?

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## Armchair

Syed1. said:


> Guys Pakistan will also get the F-35...... mubarak to all Pakistanis. Well done IK and General Bajwa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ask my source, I have a source, just take my word for it




Unfortunately you are an unknown while @Khafee is a very senior officer with a very illustrious career. And he is a major asset for the country.



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> If true, the IAF must have expected to circumvent the “jinx” of the Pak airspace via the _Ehl-i Kitap_!!! If it had failed too it’s the time to panic!!! No wonder the Hindutuva leadership lost all hope and wanted to go for a MAD induced mass suicide!! Erstwhile this option was only for their women....



you are truly a poet and a philosopher and a military historian all put in one.

So, now we have three people essentially saying the same thing, khafee, airomerix and, our resident Sherlock Holmes, @TheTallGuy

Do we need to call up PMIK to confirm this? Is our job here to satisfy the requirements of every keyboard warriors living in their mom's basement?

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## Ultima Thule

Syed1. said:


> Guys Pakistan will also get the F-35...... mubarak to all Pakistanis. Well done IK and General Bajwa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ask my source, I have a source, just take my word for it


Impossible you're not better that @Khafee he is professional Member and you're nobody, or this is your baseless sarcasm @Syed1.

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## The Eagle

As far as it is about money $$; not to forget that US owe Pakistan almost 9 Billion $ in lieu of war on terrorism (CSF) to be paid and Trump stopped that which is not a surprise. We had spat over it and things went south. Then, a god sent opportunity knocked and as our rival failed due to bias strategy; Pakistan became the most important party. The interest risen and US started to talk. Without wasting the opportunity; in short, a list to do was shared and discussed.

Trump being a businessman will never pay $9+ billion just like that hence, it can be said that the decision was made to offer product in lieu of money, sell product by keeping money at home, paying LM as the money circulates within home, creates jobs & pays labour and both parties are at win win. Afghanistan exit may be succeeded, CSF obtained, had the best product because Pakistan doesn't need a whole new infrastructure or training etc when it comes to F-16s except for refresher & upgrades at facility.

The above can be possibility if, there were talks or a will being put on the table. What happened in recent days, provides estimated guess at best and we have seen ACM calls upon PM before his visit to US. COAS accompanied and so the Spy Master. Pentagon to White House; all glittery and rocking till now, will prove many of guesses as true in coming days.

These observations along with many updates let the thread to keep it running for a while. PAF does need birds and of advanced level and we all can only discuss the possibilities. Not everyone can conclude the whole picture at once but bit by bit, it can help understand well.

We had bitter relations with US since a while and things weren't pleasant but then again, strategic games does have opportunities and chances to win big. These games and geo-strategic importance can bring you the golden opportunity by any minutes and all we need to do is to be ready, active & be prepared to avail. The few having moment that US does this & that to Pakistan and this can't be made possible; are right to the extent of past but it is more of satisfying that they aren't seeing what's been happening. So, I will always wish that the adversary may remain occupied in thoughts that this is not going to happen.

@Khafee being a professional shared a news as per his own links/source and still own it so, him being a professional wouldn't risk it but provided a scenario which allows us to discuss with every possibility that exists to move on with US. What if proposed Block-70 or Block-72 news is one of the items we discussed & hopefully will have them too? I am saying this again as we are not paying upfront as usual as we don't have that luxury and there is pending balance of CSF with US so we have a way forward with mutual benefit in lieu of goodies for us & safe exit for US.

I don't think that Exit Bargain will be that cheap and I said it before. The mutual interests based talks does contain a long term working relation with benefits for each party, strategical security, leverage in regard to economical build-up, market access etc etc. There is a lot can be made out of it or we can guess but only time will tell how things turn out as it is a time consuming exercise especially when we have a whining, arrogant & very cunning enemy.

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## mingle

Syed1. said:


> Guys Pakistan will also get the F-35...... mubarak to all Pakistanis. Well done IK and General Bajwa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ask my source, I have a source, just take my word for it


Ha ha but lot 13 price would be 80 million per copy we can have them as replacement of F16s

We miss @LeGenD here his input


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## imadul

gambit said:


> Many IFF codes are unique, not 'universal', meaning a 'friend' code for US is not the same as a 'friend' code from Britain which is not the same as from Germany which is not the same as from France, and so on. If Britain want to let US know that British fighters are 'friendly', then Britain will have to let US know that code so we can add it into our list of 'friends'. Same for Germans and French and so on.
> 
> - An IFF interrogator signal is transmitted.
> 
> - Assuming the response is automatic, an IFF response signal is transmitted.
> 
> - The interrogator compares the response against a library of 'friends'.
> 
> When I was active duty, I have seen a response that ended up with an F-16 from my own squadron ended up as 'foe'. It turned out to be a bad IFF component. IFF codes are top secret and can be changed even from hr to hr, if necessary.
> 
> Civilian IFF codes are pretty much 'universal', meaning every country agreed upon a preset signal that identifies an aircraft as 'civilian'. One of these 'universal' mode is altitude: Mode C. This mean when an aircraft, military or civilian, is interrogated, the automatic response contains just the pressure altitude. Mode C is more for air control traffic assistance.
> 
> The interrogator signal determines the response.
> 
> - Q: What is your tail number (Mode 2) and altitude (Mode C)?
> 
> - A: 15,000 ft.
> 
> Now we have an incomplete IFF response. You are supposed to tell me your tail number and altitude but I get only altitude. You maybe designated as 'foe'. The reason it is 'maybe a foe' instead of 'definitely a foe' is because possibly your IFF system is not equipped to respond with unique aircraft identifiers like tail number or class of aircraft (heavy). Mode 2 code is reserved for military. Mode C is 'universal'.
> 
> If a military query received only a civilian type of response, we will assign the respondent as civilian -- for now. If the area is a conflict zone, then there will be serious problems with incomplete responses, perhaps even ended up with catastrophic problems.


Thank you for this great and simplified explanation. Does same holds true for SAM batteries engaging an attacking aircraft?
Theoretical question, can PATRIOT shoot down a rogue F-16 from a friendly nation?
I am wondering why Turkey is buying S-400 and not PATRIOT? Can export versions shoot down aircrafts of the supplier country?


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## Tamiyah

imadul said:


> Thank you for this great and simplified explanation. Does same holds true for SAM batteries engaging an attacking aircraft?
> Theoretical question, can PATRIOT shoot down a rogue F-16 from a friendly nation?
> I am wondering why Turkey is buying S-400 and not PATRIOT? Can export versions shoot down aircrafts of the supplier country?


Turkey is not dumb that they were ready to dumped out of F35 program just for S400. There was a whole reason behind it. Its better to explore Turkish S400 thread rather than aking here.

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## Maxpane

denel said:


> Noted; it is a circular use of funds which is normal for both US and China to drive productivity on the home turf. Lets see - time will tell.


sure sir



The Eagle said:


> As far as it is about money $$; not to forget that US owe Pakistan almost 9 Billion $ in lieu of war on terrorism (CSF) to be paid and Trump stopped that which is not a surprise. We had spat over it and things went south. Then, a god sent opportunity knocked and as our rival failed due to bias strategy; Pakistan became the most important party into Pakistan. The interest risen and US started to talk. Without wasting the opportunity; in short, a list to do was shared and discussed.
> 
> Trump being a businessman will never pay $9+ billion just like that hence, it can be said that the decision was made to offer product in lieu of money, sell product by keeping money at home, paying LM as the money circulates within home, creates jobs & pays labour and both parties are at win win. Afghanistan exit may be succeeded, CSF obtained, had the best product because Pakistan doesn't need a whole new infrastructure or training etc when it comes to F-16s except for refresher & upgrades at facility.
> 
> The above can be possibility if, there were talks or a will being put on the table. What happened in recent days, provides estimated guess at best and we have seen ACM calls upon PM before his visit to US. COAS accompanied and so the Spy Master. Pentagon to White House; all glittery and rocking till now, will prove many of guesses as true in coming days.
> 
> These observations along with many updates let the thread to keep it running for a while. PAF does need birds and of advanced level and we all can only discuss the possibilities. Not everyone can conclude the whole picture at once but bit by bit, it can help understand well.
> 
> We had bitter relations with US since a while and things weren't pleasant but then again, strategic games does have opportunities and chances to win big. These games and geo-strategic importance can bring you the golden opportunity by any minutes and all we need to do is to be ready, active & be prepared to avail. The few having moment that US does this & that to Pakistan and this can't be made possible; are right to the extent of past but it is more of satisfying that they aren't seeing what's been happening. So, I will always wish that the adversary may remain occupied in thoughts that this is not going to happen.
> 
> @Khafee being a professional shared a news as per his own links/source and still own it so, him being a professional wouldn't risk it but provided a scenario which allows us to discuss with every possibility that exists to move on with US. What if proposed Block-70 or Block-72 news is one of the items we discussed & hopefully will have them too? I am saying this again as we are not paying upfront as usual as we don't have that luxury and there is pending balance of CSF with US so we have a way forward with mutual benefit in lieu of goodies for us & safe exit for US.
> 
> I don't think that Exit Bargain will be that cheap and I said it before. The mutual interests based talks does contain a long term working relation with benefits for each party, strategical security, leverage in regard to economical build-up, market access etc etc. There is a lot can be made out of it or we can guess but only time will tell how things turn out as it is a time consuming exercise especially when we have a whining, arrogant & very cunning enemy.


one of the best analysis sir

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## The Terminator

To be honest, under current circumstances Pakistan should sign a deal of further 25 to 36 brand new f16 of latest blocks with USA including the clause of unconditional supply of parts, ammunition, subsystems entire support network throughout the life span of the f Sola fleet in PAF and full and unrestricted access to the Turkish f16 production and maintenance facilities. Same goes to other US supplied weapon systems. Nothing less than that should be acceptable. They want our help in Afghanistan then earn our trust first and stop backstabbing us anymore. And it's a great opportunity for that kind of deal with Trump in office.

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## Malik Alashter

I have this question since you're a nuclear power state who you think has the balls to attack you or worse invade you?!

I'd say save the money for something benefits the poor people better than wasting them on fighters tanks ships use them for infrastructure or supplement the low income people that's where the good investment

Sorry if my wishes make no sense to you actually that's what I like for my country

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## The Terminator

Malik Alashter said:


> I have this question since you're a nuclear power state who you think has the balls to attack you or worse invade you?!
> 
> I'd say save the money for something benefits the poor people better than wasting them on fighters tanks ships use them for infrastructure or supplement the low income people that's where the good investment
> 
> Sorry if my wishes make no sense to you actually that's what I like for my country


Firstly please mention your country and nationality in your reply please and whether you or your ancestors have migrated and settled into your current country or not. Then someone would be able to give you a proper reply.


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## Malik Alashter

The Terminator said:


> Firstly please mention your country and nationality in your reply please and whether you or your ancestors have migrated and settled into your current country or not. Then someone would be able to give you a proper reply.


Im originally from Iraq and im proud Iraqi


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## The Eagle

Malik Alashter said:


> I have this question since you're a nuclear power state who you think has the balls to attack you or worse invade you?!
> 
> I'd say save the money for something benefits the poor people better than wasting them on fighters tanks ships use them for infrastructure or supplement the low income people that's where the good investment
> 
> Sorry if my wishes make no sense to you actually that's what I like for my country



There is no harm to say like this in-fact, public service should be the priority. However, in this case, if --a big IF the deal as such comes to reality, we are looking at adjusting of CSF and the same is not hard cash. The CSF is not like paying $$ to Pakistan but providing needed equipment/stuff/support. Had it been the case of cash, F-16s & other goodies were always on offer to Pakistan against hard cash.

Rest about speaking of attack being N power, not to forget that we are dealing with a mad man in neighborhood thus can't be ignored. India has been showing their ambitions and tried to do so... 26th Feb is a reference for the readiness. I would rather say that N is the reason that we are facing threats and so are safe and strong. it goes both ways.

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## War Thunder

volatile said:


> Biggest joke and with out authentic source Fan boys have wasted 40 plus pages Oh my what a childish posts .Rest only possibiliites will be if we have AESA equipped JF17 might be slight chances that US will offer the same




tbh your post is the most childish I have read in all of the 40+ pages yet.
Doesn't matter its assumption or hope, but its not fan boys nor a joke, nor childish. If nothing else, its pretty much of a possibility and something worth thinking and discussing about.

I am just wondering what's gonna happen to your childish face if this becomes reality tomorrow?



Malik Alashter said:


> I have this question since you're a nuclear power state who you think has the balls to attack you or worse invade you?!
> 
> I'd say save the money for something benefits the poor people better than wasting them on fighters tanks ships use them for infrastructure or supplement the low income people that's where the good investment
> 
> Sorry if my wishes make no sense to you actually that's what I like for my country




Nukes are good on paper, and even the most nuclear armed nations like Russia come bery close to fighting a war every other month or so.
Nukes ensure mutual destruction, hence no one is likely to use them on another nuke armed state. But at the same time no one stops these other nuke armed states from seeking a non nuke limited adventure with your military. Just like what india tried on 26th Feb.
The more and better weapons you have the more times the enemy will have to think before going on a stupid maneuver against you.
indians had been living in their delusional Bollywood fantasy of being superior, and they learnt some lessons on 26th and 27th February of this year. And have been learning many lessons ever since.


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## araz

mingle said:


> Bilal we should also try get used Airframes like from Belgium or Jorden may US has some about 25 jets upgrade is 1 billion if we get 100 total old airframe along these 24 new that 124 odd F16s a awesome number


US will never disrupt the balance by such a sale. Having said that 36 block 32/42 plus 18 uograded 52s plus the newer platforms would be enough for now for dhoti land to be in a state of perpetual dysentry for 5years. I would upgrade the ADFs with the hand me downs from the 52s. We should go for upgrades on airframes to extend life of airframes if possible fleet wide.
A

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## SABRE

Humble Analyst said:


> So does that mean that India is not buying any of US fighters including F18,F21 because unless they say no it will be hard for US to sell to India’s opposition.
> Or India will get F35 then Pak gets Blk 70s



As long as Modi is PM or BJP is in power I don't think India will go for the US fighter aircraft. It probably has less to do with lack of trust on the US jets than with bureaucratic and corporate preference for Rafale. Right now Reliance (Ambanis) are partnered with Dassault on the Rafale project and Ambanis are said to be the biggest sponsors of Modi (in fact some say Ambani controls the entire government). Even if Congress comes to power next time they'll not ditch the Rafale as it was their own government and bureaucracy that opted for the jet. They could go for the US fighter jet alongside Rafale but all this foreign equipment clutter is causing operational problems for them, as they have probably learned during the 26th-27th Feb conflict. They would want to limit diversity for a start.

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## Cookie Monster

Khafee said:


> This is why I added "*or Blk 72*"
> 
> GE engine - even the lower thrust one, has an advantage over PW.


I thought PAF operated F16s with PW engines...wouldnt it be costly to switch them all over to GE ones? If only the new acquisition of F16s are to be GE ones while the rest remain the same(PW) then that would take away the commonality in the F16 fleet.

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## gambit

imadul said:


> Thank you for this great and simplified explanation. Does same holds true for SAM batteries engaging an attacking aircraft?
> Theoretical question, can PATRIOT shoot down a rogue F-16 from a friendly nation?
> I am wondering why Turkey is buying S-400 and not PATRIOT? Can export versions shoot down aircrafts of the supplier country?


Without an IFF interrogator system, any aircraft is under risk whether allied or not. The PATRIOT system does have IFF interrogator capability. It does not matter who sells to whom, if the area is a combat zone and if there is an incomplete or no IFF response, an aircraft is at risk.

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## qaisar

"Upgrading the Block 52+" must includes AESA radar, otherwise there would be no point in acquiring AIM-120D (150+ KM Range).


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In terms of the F-16s, I think the order of priority would be: upgrading the Block-52+ and as many of the MLUs to F-16V-standards, and acquiring the AIM-120D and AIM-9X. Beyond that, it's luxury.

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## danger007

Thorough Pro said:


> I am very much on topic, who brought in toys?




I think you failed to understand what i said... i said, fighter jet is not toy.. to say readily available... you are pretty much off topic...



Khafee said:


> Those monkeys have more bad news coming , besides the vipers




Pretty much mutual feeling... just some guys have emotional imbalance, either feeling excited or getting depressed..


----------



## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Armchair said:


> Unfortunately you are an unknown while @Khafee is a very senior officer with a very illustrious career. And he is a major asset for the country.
> 
> 
> 
> you are truly a poet and a philosopher and a military historian all put in one.
> 
> So, now we have three people essentially saying the same thing, khafee, airomerix and, our resident Sherlock Holmes, @TheTallGuy
> 
> Do we need to call up PMIK to confirm this? Is our job here to satisfy the requirements of every keyboard warriors living in their mom's basement?


I am an amateur 'jack of all trades but master of none'!! Thanks for your accolades though ..

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## danger007

The Eagle said:


> As far as it is about money $$; not to forget that US owe Pakistan almost 9 Billion $ in lieu of war on terrorism (CSF) to be paid and Trump stopped that which is not a surprise. We had spat over it and things went south. Then, a god sent opportunity knocked and as our rival failed due to bias strategy; Pakistan became the most important party. The interest risen and US started to talk. Without wasting the opportunity; in short, a list to do was shared and discussed.
> 
> Trump being a businessman will never pay $9+ billion just like that hence, it can be said that the decision was made to offer product in lieu of money, sell product by keeping money at home, paying LM as the money circulates within home, creates jobs & pays labour and both parties are at win win. Afghanistan exit may be succeeded, CSF obtained, had the best product because Pakistan doesn't need a whole new infrastructure or training etc when it comes to F-16s except for refresher & upgrades at facility.
> 
> The above can be possibility if, there were talks or a will being put on the table. What happened in recent days, provides estimated guess at best and we have seen ACM calls upon PM before his visit to US. COAS accompanied and so the Spy Master. Pentagon to White House; all glittery and rocking till now, will prove many of guesses as true in coming days.
> 
> These observations along with many updates let the thread to keep it running for a while. PAF does need birds and of advanced level and we all can only discuss the possibilities. Not everyone can conclude the whole picture at once but bit by bit, it can help understand well.
> 
> We had bitter relations with US since a while and things weren't pleasant but then again, strategic games does have opportunities and chances to win big. These games and geo-strategic importance can bring you the golden opportunity by any minutes and all we need to do is to be ready, active & be prepared to avail. The few having moment that US does this & that to Pakistan and this can't be made possible; are right to the extent of past but it is more of satisfying that they aren't seeing what's been happening. So, I will always wish that the adversary may remain occupied in thoughts that this is not going to happen.
> 
> @Khafee being a professional shared a news as per his own links/source and still own it so, him being a professional wouldn't risk it but provided a scenario which allows us to discuss with every possibility that exists to move on with US. What if proposed Block-70 or Block-72 news is one of the items we discussed & hopefully will have them too? I am saying this again as we are not paying upfront as usual as we don't have that luxury and there is pending balance of CSF with US so we have a way forward with mutual benefit in lieu of goodies for us & safe exit for US.
> 
> I don't think that Exit Bargain will be that cheap and I said it before. The mutual interests based talks does contain a long term working relation with benefits for each party, strategical security, leverage in regard to economical build-up, market access etc etc. There is a lot can be made out of it or we can guess but only time will tell how things turn out as it is a time consuming exercise especially when we have a whining, arrogant & very cunning enemy.




Lets say Pak is on talk for F 16 blk 72, khafee got it from internal sources.. kept secret to avoid xyz things.. being a professional how can he share it on public domain.. when Pak intend to keep the deal secret???where is the professionalism in their...


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

The Eagle said:


> As far as it is about money $$; not to forget that US owe Pakistan almost 9 Billion $ in lieu of war on terrorism (CSF) to be paid and Trump stopped that which is not a surprise. We had spat over it and things went south. Then, a god sent opportunity knocked and as our rival failed due to bias strategy; Pakistan became the most important party. The interest risen and US started to talk. Without wasting the opportunity; in short, a list to do was shared and discussed.
> 
> Trump being a businessman will never pay $9+ billion just like that hence, it can be said that the decision was made to offer product in lieu of money, sell product by keeping money at home, paying LM as the money circulates within home, creates jobs & pays labour and both parties are at win win. Afghanistan exit may be succeeded, CSF obtained, had the best product because Pakistan doesn't need a whole new infrastructure or training etc when it comes to F-16s except for refresher & upgrades at facility.
> 
> The above can be possibility if, there were talks or a will being put on the table. What happened in recent days, provides estimated guess at best and we have seen ACM calls upon PM before his visit to US. COAS accompanied and so the Spy Master. Pentagon to White House; all glittery and rocking till now, will prove many of guesses as true in coming days.
> 
> These observations along with many updates let the thread to keep it running for a while. PAF does need birds and of advanced level and we all can only discuss the possibilities. Not everyone can conclude the whole picture at once but bit by bit, it can help understand well.
> 
> We had bitter relations with US since a while and things weren't pleasant but then again, strategic games does have opportunities and chances to win big. These games and geo-strategic importance can bring you the golden opportunity by any minutes and all we need to do is to be ready, active & be prepared to avail. The few having moment that US does this & that to Pakistan and this can't be made possible; are right to the extent of past but it is more of satisfying that they aren't seeing what's been happening. So, I will always wish that the adversary may remain occupied in thoughts that this is not going to happen.
> 
> @Khafee being a professional shared a news as per his own links/source and still own it so, him being a professional wouldn't risk it but provided a scenario which allows us to discuss with every possibility that exists to move on with US. What if proposed Block-70 or Block-72 news is one of the items we discussed & hopefully will have them too? I am saying this again as we are not paying upfront as usual as we don't have that luxury and there is pending balance of CSF with US so we have a way forward with mutual benefit in lieu of goodies for us & safe exit for US.
> 
> I don't think that Exit Bargain will be that cheap and I said it before. The mutual interests based talks does contain a long term working relation with benefits for each party, strategical security, leverage in regard to economical build-up, market access etc etc. There is a lot can be made out of it or we can guess but only time will tell how things turn out as it is a time consuming exercise especially when we have a whining, arrogant & very cunning enemy.


24 hrs is a long time in politics - former Turkish President Merhum Demirel used to always say!! Geopolitics is the mother of all politics.....

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## Cookie Monster

danger007 said:


> Am not delusional like you... be it BJP or anyother party in the power... they can't hide such things.. it will be political suicide and they need to address the parliament..


It can very well be the case that Su30 MKI disappeared on the radar, which may seem like it was "downed" just like how u guys keep insisting on that F16 being "downed". However there's more than one way an aircraft can disappear off the radar...it doesn't necessarily have to be destroyed. In any case this is not the thread to discuss such things...so let's just move on and stick to topic of this thread.

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## danger007

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Brilliant! Logical thinking... now that @Khafee has leaked top secret on PDF... the US is going to get angry with Pak due to *#KhafeeLeaks* and F16 deal will be cancelled. Party over.
> 
> Alright folks... nothing to see here now... harmony restored... all those things that were on fire...can start soothing process. Ice.
> *
> #KhafeeLeaks* made F16 deal fail. Logic. Reason...win the day!




Wah.. if the official wants to keep it secret.. he should not reveal it.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well it must have been known declassified matter , which is why he shared the possible good news

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## Aamir Hussain

This is not going to happen. The best, release of eight F-16's that were ordered with aid now will be partly paid from the funds from CSF payments. Continued support of the fleet. Second release of the AH1Z Vipers and completion of the order.

Upgrade of Orions and support of the fleet. Complete all ongoing supply and refurbishment contracts that were brought to a standstill.

I don't see sale of big ticket items at all.

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## Khafee

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Brilliant! Logical thinking... now that @Khafee has leaked top secret on PDF... the US is going to get angry with Pak due to *#KhafeeLeaks* and F16 deal will be cancelled. Party over.
> 
> Alright folks... nothing to see here now... harmony restored... all those things that were on fire...can start soothing process. Ice.
> *
> #KhafeeLeaks* made F16 deal fail. Logic. Reason...win the day!


Like @Irfan Baloch said, there is fire of galactic proportions across the border (something like that). 

Hence them twisting in agony. Like I said earlier, there is more good news coming IA.

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## ali_raza

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Brilliant! Logical thinking... now that @Khafee has leaked top secret on PDF... the US is going to get angry with Pak due to *#KhafeeLeaks* and F16 deal will be cancelled. Party over.
> 
> Alright folks... nothing to see here now... harmony restored... all those things that were on fire...can start soothing process. Ice.
> *
> #KhafeeLeaks* made F16 deal fail. Logic. Reason...win the day!


Ignore
these two bit nobody's from the nazi fascist state, they dont deserve 
our attention. They are just shocked that the marriage they were 
expecting, turned out to be a one night stand.

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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Wah.. if the official wants to keep it secret.. he should not reveal it.


So why you're here @Khafee not leaking with source/links From US govt/LM or from PAF, He just gives a hints some think big ticket items is on the way toward Pakistan and why you're worry you're going to have RAFALE in NEAR FUTURE and RAFALE is more ADVANCE then F-22/F-35 according to your fellow countrymen IF we will get F-16V/72 in near future its a piece of cake in front of your 10 gen RAFALE @danger007

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## Khafee

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Why, oh, why...you cruel man.. why..you torment the tender souls with your hints...
> 
> More *#KhafeeLeaks* ? More fire...more burning... more sleepless nights...oh, _the horror, the horror..._
> 
> Keep them *#KhafeeLeaks* coming... yummy!


IA in a few hrs there is one more BM coming from Khafee

#khafee Leaks zinda hai
#Khafee ek sooch ka naam

@Horus Pls note

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## CHACHA"G"

Khafee said:


> IA in a few hrs there is one more BM coming from Khafee
> 
> #khafee Leaks zind hai
> #Khafee ek sooch ka naam
> 
> @Horus Pls note


Bhai jan loo gay kiya humaray parosi ki 
Waiting for #2ndkhafileake 

And I hope and pray for your F-16s and Zulu news..

*People need to understand USA wont sell Pakistan any thing that disturb balance of power (and if the tech is advance in its kind)……. But Now things changed ,, How , let me tell thanks india 
*


*

Rafale

S-400.
*
*india changed the balance of power (completely) , now USA have to restore it and Pakistan getting JF-17 block III and maybe in talks for J-10s(for tech part) …… And as many members said 9 Billion $$$ (CSF) will stay in USA (for money part).. 


*

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## Khafee

ali_raza said:


> Ignore
> these two bit nobody's from the nazi fascist state, they dont deserve
> our attention. They are just shocked that the marriage they were
> expecting, turned out to be a one night stand.



Reminds one, of how villagers in the sub continent mourn a death, wailing and screaming.



CHACHA"G" said:


> Bhai jan loo gay kiya humaray parosi ki
> Waiting for #2ndkhafileake
> 
> And I hope and pray for your F-16s and Zulu news..


Thank You Sir, for your kind wishes. Appreciate it.

This goes for everyone on this thread who has supported me, and believed in me. You are the power that drives #khafee Leaks 

IA more high octane gasoline coming for the haters, soon!

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## Cent4

Should have asked for F35

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## CHACHA"G"

Cent4 said:


> Should have asked for F35


They will also come …… When we have our Project AZM on production line ….. (When USA know Pakistan have the tech) and when india buy SU-57 … Mark my words …… USA will sell Pakistan F-35 ..

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## Cent4

CHACHA"G" said:


> They will also come …… When we have our Project AZM on production line ….. (When USA know Pakistan have the tech) and when india buy SU-57 … Mark my words …… USA will sell Pakistan F-35 ..



That would mean that we will be catching up. Should use the Afg situation to our advantage and get the F35.
A little nudge in terms of F31 partnership may have helped.

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## SIPRA

Khafee said:


> IA in a few hrs there is one more BM coming from Khafee



Awaiting, Sir. Should Gangadeshi arrange for some more Burnol?

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## Mrc

USA will not deliver even a single bullet to Pakistan ....

Its difficult for our establishment to understand i think but its very easy... 

We are a threat india is not

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## manga

After 64 pages we could have at least one tweet from mr nobody of internet, let aside a news source from reputed agency.


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## Khafee

Cookie Monster said:


> I thought PAF operated F16s with PW engines...wouldnt it be costly to switch them all over to GE ones? If only the new acquisition of F16s are to be GE ones while the rest remain the same(PW) then that would take away the commonality in the F16 fleet.



Well that is a question being pondered, higher thrust GE engine (for the new 2 dozen) or commonality. Like I said, remote possibility.

At the end of the day, it's not just PAF's call, the financier gets a say too.



RIWWIR said:


> Awaiting, Sir. Should Gangadeshi arrange for some more Burnol?


Pyre wood be more appropriate



manga said:


> After 64 pages we could have at least one tweet from mr nobody of internet, let aside a news source from reputed agency.


We have a tweet from a govt official. Now got through the 64pages and dig it out.

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## manga

Cent4 said:


> That would mean that we will be catching up. Should use the Afg situation to our advantage and get the F35.
> A little nudge in terms of F31 partnership may have helped.


While you are at it, also give a shot at F-22, you never know.



Khafee said:


> Well that is a question being pondered, higher thrust GE engine (for the new 2 dozen) or commonality. Like I said, remote possibility.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's not just PAF's call, the financier gets a say too.
> 
> 
> Pyre wood be more appropriate
> 
> 
> We have a tweet from a govt official. Now got through the 64pages and dig it out.



I dont think there is a need to dig for a tweet of maintainence contract.
May be you will need to do some digging in coming time to back up your original post.
Good luck.


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## Khafee

manga said:


> While you are at it, also give a shot at F-22, you never know.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think there is a need to dig for a tweet of maintainence contract.
> May be you will need to do digging in coming time to back up your original post.
> Good luck.



Dear Clueless, Who said anything about a maintenance contract?

IA my OP will be backed by DSCA notification. Brace yourself for surprise.

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## Cent4

manga said:


> While you are at it, also give a shot at F-22, you never know.



F22 has no chance. F35 does have a chance. Dont worry it will only be used against terrorists.

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## araz

Sulemanms202 said:


> winning a war without socio eco independence is a difficult road one for which people pay very dear price.
> after all socia economic indep. was one of the reason behind two nation theory
> 
> whats the point of having the country when you cant fulfill its purpose
> people were paying the price in the form of british slavery now they are paying price to our local lords.
> when people feel liberated and have choices in terms education and jobs country grows and secures itself, weapons dont win wars, nations do


It can be argued both ways. You could be economically secure but not secure militarily as well. I agree we need to strike a balance for sustained growth in both sectors and the pendulum will keep swinging depending on the needs

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> IA in a few hrs there is one more BM coming from Khafee
> 
> #khafee Leaks zind hai
> #Khafee ek sooch ka naam
> 
> @Horus Pls note


*next news will be Pakistani block-72 will be run on CNG not patrol ?*

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## CHACHA"G"

Sir Adfghan war have nothing to do with this … This is mainly because of india , indian defence spending and balance of power .. And F-35 only come when USA see Pakistan have the tech or don't need it and when India buy Su-57 (to restore balance of power again).. 
Only chance F-35 wont coming are . One If india buys them , 2nd if our AZAM project is advance enough.. (azam-1 NGF (advance JF-17 ).. AZAM-2 5th Gen fighter)


Cent4 said:


> That would mean that we will be catching up. Should use the Afg situation to our advantage and get the F35.
> A little nudge in terms of F31 partnership may have helped.



And you are still burning your azz and time on this thread.. 


manga said:


> After 64 pages we could have at least one tweet from mr nobody of internet, let aside a news source from reputed agency.

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## Cookie Monster

Khafee said:


> Well that is a question being pondered, higher thrust GE engine (for the new 2 dozen) or commonality. Like I said, remote possibility.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's not just PAF's call, the *financier* gets a say too.


Financier...so Pak wouldn't be paying for it or at least not all of it...as I thought...bcuz the economy isnt doing so well at the moment.

Why u gotta tease the CookieMonster with these crumbs u r dropping...that's so cruel @Khafee

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## airomerix

cloud4000 said:


> No, I just find it strange that Pakiatanis on PDF are writing a shopping list for new toys from Uncle Sam, using CSF money. Money that can be better used elsewhere like forestalling IMF loans.
> 
> All based on the assumption that Pakistan will get all CSF money it claims it is owed. It will probably get a fraction of it, depending on Congress’s mood,
> 
> I find the thread interesting. It’s like a wet dream for F-16 fanboys.



You sound nervous. I don't blame you. 

After all your destiny was, is and will be in the hands of PAF drivers of US made jets. 

From first A2A missile kill to AMRAAM's blasting your toys in the sky. Wasn't a dream at all.

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## Cent4

CHACHA"G" said:


> Sir Adfghan war have nothing to do with this … This is mainly because of india , indian defence spending and balance of power .. And F-35 only come when USA see Pakistan have the tech or don't need it and when India buy Su-57 (to restore balance of power again)..
> Only chance F-35 wont coming are . One If india buys them , 2nd if our AZAM project is advance enough.. (azam-1 NGF (advance JF-17 ).. AZAM-2 5th Gen fighter)
> 
> 
> And you are still burning your azz and time on this thread..



I can understand where you are coming from. But we need to look at what has happend in the recet past. India's MRCA blocked our access to Euro, French, Swedish amd American aircrafts. Realisticly there is only 1 fitfh gen aircraft in the market. If India were to buy this then we will have no option but to go for F31. Developing our own NGF is still a long way off. 
Rught now is the best time to go for F35.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well CSF is mainly for Military as it was military expenses we are talking about


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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> IA in a few hrs there is one more BM coming from Khafee
> 
> #khafee Leaks zind hai
> #Khafee ek sooch ka naam
> 
> @Horus Pls note


tum kitne khafee ban karo ge 
har ghar se khafee nikle ga

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## CHACHA"G"

Cent4 said:


> Rught now is the best time to go for F35.


I agree sir right now is the time , but time is not in our favour .. USA will wait for india , we like it or not india is the big market , This is the reality … And Yes best for us if we build our own 5th Gen with help from Turkey and China .. Will take time but opens up lots of opportunities ( lots of close doors)

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## ali_raza

CHACHA"G" said:


> I agree sir right now is the time , but time is not in our favour .. USA will wait for india , we like it or not india is the big market , This is the reality … And Yes best for us if we build our own 5th Gen with help from Turkey and China .. Will take time but opens up lots of opportunities ( lots of close doors)


maybe time is perfect

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## CHACHA"G"

ali_raza said:


> maybe time is perfect


I have my own doubts , thinking , mind , thoughts On This bro ….. People are asking this question(f-35) 8 to 10 years early .

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## Maarkhoor

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Kindly let us know who financing this deal? I have an hint.....

But would like to hear from you.....

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## araz

Sulemanms202 said:


> same mindset led us into afghan conflict, yes we do have problems at our borders im not saying that but the direction we have taken or we have always taken has always led to our masses being ignorant and budget deficits if thats the choice they are gonna make, very sad to see...
> 
> 
> in the days of USSR every country in west was under the threat of soviet invasion they played wisely and made choices which helped their nation...
> 
> with correct decision we can fix our economy say in 3 to 5 years then we can buy whatver we want from who ever we want not just US..this US is not going to help us, it is here to enslave us


Afghanistan was a matter of survival and we paid in sweat and blood for that war even before the US jumped in with its support. Sitting back in an arm chair you can look back at history and make snide remarks without realizing there were people who made decisions based on what they perceived to be a situation without hte benefit of the historical retrospectoscope. You can now say it was a bad decision but was that still the case in 1976-78? Having been of an age to dicriminate the good from the bad and having read enough history I along with many others felt it was the right decision and not indulging in war would have posed significant damage to the very viability of pakistan. So allow me t odiffer with your esteemed opinion. 


manga said:


> While you are at it, also give a shot at F-22, you never know.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think there is a need to dig for a tweet of maintainence contract.
> May be you will need to do some digging in coming time to back up your original post.
> Good luck.


If the news is true then you will find out via official channels in due course. So continue to be sceptical and let us wait. At the moment there is no official confirmation. There are a lot of hoops to be crossed so let us wait to see when thew news comes out. As @Khafee said you can then either congratulate him or commit mass suicide depending on how much you are hurt with this news, or throw cow dung pies at him. But till then wait and see.
A

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## Cookie Monster

Khafee said:


> IA in a few hrs there is one more BM coming from Khafee
> 
> #khafee Leaks zind hai
> #Khafee ek sooch ka naam
> 
> @Horus Pls note


Would u kindly tag me on #KhafeeLeaks whenever u share whatever news it is u will be sharing on PDF in a few hours?

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## ali_raza

CHACHA"G" said:


> I have my own doubts , thinking , mind , thoughts On This bro ….. People are asking this question(f-35) 8 to 10 years early .


i wasn’t talking about f35
even if people agreed to it.
we don’t have capacity to handle it just yet.
we might have to upgrade all our bases so still well a decade

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> the financier gets a say too.


thats cheeky sir

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## JK!

No official source or statement to support this so will err on side of caution and wait till it actually happens.

Not questioning @Khafee character or integrity until I see it I remain sceptical.

I remember a few years back on the forum my excitement at the initial F16 order and then President Musharraf pictures sitting in a J10 cockpit and the news of the order of 36 to be designated as FC20 which has never happened.

Should it happen I agree with @Quwa that a priority should also be upgrading the existing fleet to F16V standard as well as additional block 70 purchases.

Just out of question how large is the current F16 fleet?

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## danger007

pakistanipower said:


> So why you're here @Khafee not leaking with source/links From US govt/LM or from PAF, He just gives a hints some think big ticket items is on the way toward Pakistan and why you're worry you're going to have RAFALE in NEAR FUTURE and RAFALE is more ADVANCE then F-22/F-35 according to your fellow countrymen IF we will get F-16V/72 in near future its a piece of cake in front of your 10 gen RAFALE @danger007



Do you believe that you are going to get f 16 blk 72 ..... duh... worried? May be you failed to understand the reality... am not talking about economics blah blah... i read tons of thread J 10, J 31, Su 35 etc... and now F 16 ... if have a source then quote it, if it secret then leave it.... if you want to open fantasy threads carry on... I come across plenty emotional posts on USA, can't be trusted xyz ... now everyone get into illusive fantasy world just because of one meeting..... F 16 blk 72 to pak is far from reality...


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## PurpleButcher

JK! said:


> No official source or statement to support this so will err on side of caution and wait till it actually happens.
> 
> Not questioning @Khafee character or integrity until I see it I remain sceptical.
> 
> I remember a few years back on the forum my excitement at the initial F16 order and then President Musharraf pictures sitting in a J10 cockpit and the news of the order of 36 to be designated as FC20 which has never happened.
> 
> Should it happen I agree with @Quwa that a priority should also be upgrading the existing fleet to F16V standard as well as additional block 70 purchases.
> 
> Just out of question how large is the current F16 fleet?


Couldn't agree more.

Off topic:- Finally found someone who has been longer than me on pdf and has less posts than mine


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## Trailer23

PurpleButcher said:


> Off topic:- Finally found someone who has been longer than me on pdf and has less posts than mine


Not entirely true.

But i'm just the UnOfficial Media guy.


----------



## ali_raza

danger007 said:


> Do you believe that you are going to get f 16 blk 72 ..... duh... worried? May be you failed to understand the reality... am not talking about economics blah blah... i read tons of thread J 10, J 31, Su 35 etc... and now F 16 ... if have a source then quote it, if it secret then leave it.... if you want to open fantasy threads carry on... I come across plenty emotional posts on USA, can't be trusted xyz ... now everyone get into illusive fantasy world just because of one meeting..... F 16 blk 72 to pak is far from reality...


and why r u trying to explain it to urself 
i remember a movie where one girl after being ditched by her boyfriend sat alone 
speaking to herself like u r speaking now.
she was saying noo he cannot live without me he will come back.
i gave him everything 
that marriage turned out to one night stand 
we have out sympathy bro

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## Imran Khan

JK! said:


> No official source or statement to support this so will err on side of caution and wait till it actually happens.
> 
> Not questioning @Khafee character or integrity until I see it I remain sceptical.
> 
> I remember a few years back on the forum my excitement at the initial F16 order and then President Musharraf pictures sitting in a J10 cockpit and the news of the order of 36 to be designated as FC20 which has never happened.
> 
> Should it happen I agree with @Quwa that a priority should also be upgrading the existing fleet to F16V standard as well as additional block 70 purchases.
> 
> Just out of question how large is the current F16 fleet?


f16 ayee na ayee ap to a gaay na . ap ka wapas aana bhi koi kam nhi . welcome sir .

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## NA71

cloud4000 said:


> Show me the money.


show me the SU wreckage first we are still able to surprise India each passing day....

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## Syed1.

pakistanipower said:


> Impossible you're not better that @Khafee he is professional Member and you're nobody, or this is your baseless sarcasm @Syed1.


Grow up and learn to take a joke or improve your intellectual level


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## airomerix

8 MoU's have been signed for sure. 

Lets see what comes to light.

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## The Terminator

Malik Alashter said:


> Im originally from Iraq and im proud Iraqi


Iraq. 
So you should have really witnessed the devastation of war first hand then. If Iraq had strong and upto date military no one would dare to even think of invading Iraq twice in recent history. Iraq was invaded and torn by decades of war by NATO because Iraqi military was ill prepared, their weapons, air defense, Airforce were outdated, non existent navy, premitive and really depleted ballistic missile force, Nuclear plants Kaput/destroyed, outdated tactics of army and old tanks with no air cover whatsoever and lack of modern C4ISR resulted into total annihilation of Iraqi forces within their home country and the foreign invaders prevailed at large without any significant resistance. Followed by never ending civil war, blasts everywhere, rise and fall of ISIL etc. If you would have invested your resources (finances, human resource) correctly then your nation would never had seen this devastation.
We invested in our military force and now we may fight, abuse each other for power and Govt but no foreign power would dare to invade and rule over us with that much ease all due to our strong and relevant to modern age armed forces. A deterrence that All riches of Oil couldn't achieve. Presently We may be pour but proud and a powerful nation at a prime location that compells the world powers to engage with us on friendly terms not to invade and over run.

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## The Eagle

danger007 said:


> Lets say Pak is on talk for F 16 blk 72, khafee got it from internal sources.. kept secret to avoid xyz things.. being a professional how can he share it on public domain.. when Pak intend to keep the deal secret???where is the professionalism in their...



Let's say that someone told @Khafee from somewhere else and, someone deliberately did it so the many like all of us be guessing. Why isn't like Khafee said it with convincing substance and here we all are guessing. Why not to observe that none of seniors or informed members certified the news or acknowledged this. It's been said that if it doesn't seem probable to anyone, let's share arguments and discussion be carried out in arguable manners. A member, like Khafee in this case, shouldn't be the subject to discuss but the topic. If it was a secret thing or to be kept away, there wouldn't be any discussion of less possibility like in this thread. Everyone is discussing the possibility and any way if such deal can make it to fruition at all.

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## The Terminator

gambit said:


> Without an IFF interrogator system, any aircraft is under risk whether allied or not. The PATRIOT system does have IFF interrogator capability. It does not matter who sells to whom, if the area is a combat zone and if there is an incomplete or no IFF response, an aircraft is at risk.


That's why in February at IAF humiliation day, indians shot down their own Mi17 heli! ￼￼

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## The Eagle

danger007 said:


> I come across plenty emotional posts on USA, can't be trusted xyz ... now everyone get into illusive fantasy world just because of one meeting



Now I do understand that why it's hard for many to get the idea. For the starter, trust deficit is still there and if you try to notice, none is saying that US is our trust worthy friend. The new argument and possible cooperation is based upon geostrategy and politics. It's all about cooperation with equality and mutual interests for the benefits of involved parties. Hope that much of confusion is cleared. In modern day diplomacy and cooperation, there is nothing as blind trust or friendship like past. Pakistan US are dealing on totally different level.

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## The Eagle

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Pointblank!
> 
> States are Rational Creatures... thats why they do things differently... calculations, calculations...
> 
> In the same vein... a state does asks for mediation on Kashmir and the other state says yes.
> 
> Any interaction in Pak-US equation is extremely rational..from both sides. Encouraging!



Allow me to speak in careful manners and pardon me but I have to cut words between the lines. Even if me or anyone else had the idea of Vipers for PAF, it's Khafee now leading thread. 

There are very few that got idea as how viper became of a subject during US Pakistan diplomacy and revisiting relations? Here, Afghanistan is not only key for the possible Viper upgrade or purchase but a seller didn't want to loose his longstanding and capable customer. That's why I said that this is not alone about trust, now. 

There is mutual friend with Pakistan US and may possibly arranged many things, is the same friend who knew the other possible supplier. PAF, now has multiple choices in regard to new birds. US/LM availed this opportunity of Afghanistan based cooperation and we have a mutual product suggested/offered at the same time. 

In'Sha'ALLAH, if couple of things went as per plan, there are so many surprises for our enemies. Remember ACM on record that PAF is looking for fighter jets in East and West, both. A lot of progress is being made in this regard and thanks indeed to the friends in need. US wouldn't be offering Vipers etc merely due to Afghanistan chapter but professionals along with domestic offices, have put a lot of efforts, hard work and dedication. Let's pray for men to achieve our goals for Pakistan.

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## WarKa DaNG

Source??


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## Cent4

WarKa DaNG said:


> Source??


Read the title. PDF is the source.


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## ziaulislam

danger007 said:


> Do you believe that you are going to get f 16 blk 72 ..... duh... worried? May be you failed to understand the reality... am not talking about economics blah blah... i read tons of thread J 10, J 31, Su 35 etc... and now F 16 ... if have a source then quote it, if it secret then leave it.... if you want to open fantasy threads carry on... I come across plenty emotional posts on USA, can't be trusted xyz ... now everyone get into illusive fantasy world just because of one meeting..... F 16 blk 72 to pak is far from reality...



j10 skipped for jf17
j31..doesnt exist what is that?? can you explain?
su35...flanker..never wanted or liked by PAF
f16..were acquired by cash twice in 1990s(3.4b$) & 2005 (3.1b$ with option of 5b$) at that time pakistan went to IMF too and economy was 4x smaller than what it is now


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## danger007

ziaulislam said:


> j10 skipped for jf17
> j31..doesnt exist what is that?? can you explain?
> su35...flanker..never wanted or liked by PAF
> f16..were acquired by cash twice in 1990s(3.4b$) & 2005 (3.1b$ with option of 5b$) at that time pakistan went to IMF too and economy was 4x smaller than what it is now




Threads created by some members ... as if they know something classified...


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## syed_yusuf

there is no BLK70/72 coming .. i highly doubt it


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## TOPGUN

danger007 said:


> Threads created by some members ... as if they know something classified...



And why do you seem to be so concerned about it ? having your beak in things when and where they do not belong !!

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## Wolf

8 F-16s and cobras.

Yes, there is a possibility of more if Pakistan can somehow claim 9 Billion dollars of CSF at some international forum provided, there is some clause in a God forsaken agreement or pact where USA is bound to pay for logistical support to its forces by Pakistan. A good option after Reko diq hit to Pakistan


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## MIRauf

Cloud4000 you are correct, CSF can be used for anything and anywhere, while Military Aid can only be used to pay back US ( Weapons, Training, spare parts etc. )

As for enjoying the moment, as I said to someone else from across the border a while back, "leap if you feel froggy." I say the same to you but just remember what happened when last time you guys leaped. 

You don't usually fold your hand in poker if you see a face-up ACE by your opponents, Air-Forces don't fold over just losing a single vintage era Mig-21 /wink/

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## CHI RULES

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Sir great news which can be only be expected from a sensible pro like you. If realized it shall suffice Pak requirements till induction of 5th Gen jet by IAF.

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## TsAr

Khafee said:


> IA in a few hrs there is one more BM coming from Khafee
> 
> #khafee Leaks zinda hai
> #Khafee ek sooch ka naam
> 
> @Horus Pls note


Qadam barhao #khafee hum tumharay sath han

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## SIPRA

TsAr said:


> Qadam barhao #khafee hum tumharay sath han



Brother @Khafee: Never ever go after this slogan. Once, it was also whispered in the ears of Noora Sharif.

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## TOPGUN

cloud4000 said:


> Bending over is what you Pakistanis do best. Ask the Americans, the Saudis, the Chinese...
> 
> 
> 
> CSF is compensation for logistical and military support given to US. They are funds that are directly reimbursed to Pakistan, which can use it any way it wants, including to buy US weapons. Don't conflate it with military aid, which is a completely different thing and does require the purchase of US weapons.
> 
> So, in fact, CSF can be used for things other than buying US weapons. That Pakistan used to either furnish its foreign reserves or buy US weapons was Pakistan's decision, not US.
> 
> You really need to do your homework.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, enjoy the moment...while it lasts.



Hey Cloud keep your tone to your self and between you and the other member you are fighting with. I don't bend over for anyone cuz I am not a fag don't know about you keep it mature rather then addressing your angry to the entire Pakistani's we can do the same in return just saying !!

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## krash

Fieldmarshal said:


> Another thing the mlu was originally suppose to be performed at kamra but Turks went behind our backs and convinced the Americans to do it in turkey.
> 
> So things aren't as rosey or bleak as we make them out to be



IIRC, there was an open tender for the MLU by Pakistan. Turkey had the winning bid.

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## Armchair

@Khafee we are glued to the computer waiting... how many more hours away is your next #khafeeleaks ?

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## danger007

ali_raza said:


> and why r u trying to explain it to urself
> i remember a movie where one girl after being ditched by her boyfriend sat alone
> speaking to herself like u r speaking now.
> she was saying noo he cannot live without me he will come back.
> i gave him everything
> that marriage turned out to one night stand
> we have out sympathy bro




When you have no point .. but the personal insults..


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## Khafee

Armchair said:


> @Khafee we are glued to the computer waiting... how many more hours away is your next #khafeeleaks ?


Bro, unless I get 200% confirmation, I cant.

Btw, your profile is locked up so tight, that a PM is not possible.

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## ziaulislam

danger007 said:


> Threads created by some members ... as if they know something classified...


i have seen threads on space aliens and flying monkey as well..does chnage the facts


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## SIPRA

Khafee said:


> Bro, unless I get 200% confirmation, I cant.



By giving an early warning of the next *KhafeeLeaks*, you have literally tied many posters with the proverbial tool of the elephant.

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## Cookie Monster

RIWWIR said:


> By giving an early warning of the next *KhafeeLeaks*, you have literally tied many posters with the proverbial tool of the elephant.


I couldn't sleep all night...been waiting...@Khafee is a tease.

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Bro, unless I get 200% confirmation, I cant.
> 
> Btw, your profile is locked up so tight, that a PM is not possible.



Ridiculous on my part - although I've been a member of this forum and other sister forums since 2005 (here) and 2004, I've no clue how to PM you! I just tried but failed. I've edited the privacy settings to make it more open though. Perhaps @Dubious can help - last time he helped set up a PM


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## AsianLion

This is fantastic news F16 Block 70 /72 plus upgrade all F16 to V model.

Where will we get the money from? Ofcourse 210 million Pakistanis will foot the bill for our PAF.

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## Sulemanms202

i would love to be proven wrong on that subject since whatever way we go (if any)success should eventually materialize in the favour our people

i am sorry im not very happy with the way we make decisions because there is no collective thought involved in the process.. i mean if two or three professors can write papers to decide whether sampling or correlation should come first to form a distribution they why cant our decision makers cant ask few experts to form some hypothesis or work out some model..

very bitterly disappointed.... in 70 years of our existence we have not even shown willingness or ability to resolve our basic issues let alone very complex alone and im not disappointed with masses im concerned with people who drive big cars and live in big house.... perhaps sums up our past and future too!


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## Fieldmarshal

Khafee said:


> Reminds one, of how villagers in the sub continent mourn a death, wailing and screaming.
> !


Pakistan is a huge country, n with the passage of time the population of our country specially the rural folk have become more and more literate and also have acquired a better understanding of Islam.
So the style of mourning that u have described above has become very alien to a large portion of the people of this country.
I in the last few years have burried 4 of my cousins, who died while performing I.S duties in diff parts of Pakistan. The youngest being a Capt. And the oldest and the most recent being a full Col. One of these shauhadahs (a maj.) child was born 4 months after his shahadat.
In addition to the above burried my father along with a few of my other relatives.
So having gone through it all n that too in a village setting, have not experienced any thing remotely close to wt u have mentioned above.

So I take strong offence to wt u have stated above. It is ppl like u who generalize facts n brush it all with the same brush in one stroke.

If u still have any doubts than see the video of the coffins of the latest shaudhas of PA and see the how they have been received on their home coming. They have not been greeted by wailing and crying but by a shower of rose petals and with cries of ALLAH O Akbar and Pakistan zindabad.
Their might be instances of wailing and all but now in Pakistan at least they r the exception n not the norm.

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## Sulemanms202

look closely this video you may get the idea what i am talking about, world is reaching to apoint where it is trying to reduce the use of natural resurces that too very efficiently and in this part of the world we believe coal and gases can save us and if this kindda thinking reside in our systems (education and all) then im sorry i will blame people who are at the helm of the affairs OVERTLY or COVERTLY!

we are at logger heads with people who have the ability to develop structures and critical thinking is their part of soul not their system im sorry with this archaic mindset and approach we are doomed to failure.


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## Maxpane

#me too waiting for @Khafee leaks sir

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## MIRauf

You do know that Bill didn't drink that "plant in the video" purified water, he was drinking bottle water brought in from the US.


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## VCheng

AsianUnion said:


> This is fantastic news F16 Block 70 /72 plus upgrade all F16 to V model.
> 
> Where will we get the money from? Ofcourse 210 million Pakistanis will foot the bill for our PAF.



In more ways than just money. But it is all in the name of national interests, as it should be.

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## Sulemanms202

out of question even if he took that bottle out of ***... sheer attempt to develop such a thing is worthy of praise


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## Blueskiez 2001

ziaulislam said:


> j10 skipped for jf17
> j31..doesnt exist what is that?? can you explain?
> su35...flanker..never wanted or liked by PAF
> f16..were acquired by cash twice in 1990s(3.4b$) & 2005 (3.1b$ with option of 5b$) at that time pakistan went to IMF too and economy was 4x smaller than what it is now



F-16 where paid but not delivered in 1990s...

The cash paid was also used for payment for storage... Such was the deceit from USA

More F-16 came after 9/11


----------



## Dazzler

airomerix said:


> 8 MoU's have been signed for sure.
> 
> Lets see what comes to light.



More wheat and soy bean oil heading our way.


----------



## UniverseWatcher

Before making a comment like "how Pak people gonna pay for this" and some other nonsense make sure to read the comments from Khafee or The Eagle as they have explained it multiple times on whats the road map for this process...they don't have to baby sit little kids here...

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## VCheng

Dazzler said:


> More wheat and soy bean oil heading our way.



Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice ... ...

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## M.AsfandYar

Khafee said:


> Authorization for the new ones is limited to *24*, not 36, for now.
> Plus there is a "*remote possibility*" that these could have the higher thrust GE-132 engines, hence Blk70.
> GE engines, have a better reliability rate in desert conditions, in comparison to PW btw.
> 
> The Current PAF fleet, all of it, will get APG-83.
> 
> *Who is paying* - I left that part our on purpose, I want these so called "Think Tanks" aka tin cans, to prove them selves, instead of firing arrows in the air, and howling in the wind, this is a good opportunity for them to redeem their credibility, after they fell flat on their faces with the C-17 saga.
> 
> Have a nice day!


PM me Sir?
Need to ask something.

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## Sinnerman108

Dazzler said:


> More wheat and soy bean oil heading our way.



Soy bean oil, ok ( i thought it was palm oil )

Who is into wheat ??


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## Khafee

M.AsfandYar said:


> PM me Sir?
> Need to ask something.


Sir, Yes Sir!

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## M.AsfandYar

Khafee said:


> Sir, Yes Sir!


I cant PM, You would ve to open one with me.

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## Khafee

Maxpane said:


> #me too waiting for @Khafee leaks sir


Bro, until I get confirmation - 200% consider it no news.



VCheng said:


> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice ... ...


This is why I told you so many times, Sudharja! Warna zindagi bhar log tumko isis tarha pagal banaiengay. 
Liken majal hai ka koi change aya ho. Wohi dhet ka dhet.

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## Beethoven

@Khafee koi baat nai hum 100% se kaam chala lenge aap share to karen

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## The Eagle

UniverseWatcher said:


> Before making a comment like "how Pak people gonna pay for this" and some other nonsense make sure to read the comments from Khafee or The Eagle as they have explained it multiple times on whats the road map for this process...they don't have to baby sit little kids here...



Me and others, merely adding to subject and can discuss the possibilities like how and why it could have been done. The problem is with few minds that denies the productive discussion for the want of official source. For the time being, we can discuss the idea until and unless, source hungry doesn't have the satisfaction.

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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Do you believe that you are going to get f 16 blk 72 ..... duh... worried? May be you failed to understand the reality... am not talking about economics blah blah... i read tons of thread J 10, J 31, Su 35 etc... and now F 16 ... if have a source then quote it, if it secret then leave it.... if you want to open fantasy threads carry on... I come across plenty emotional posts on USA, can't be trusted xyz ... now everyone get into illusive fantasy world just because of one meeting..... F 16 blk 72 to pak is far from reality...


So why you have a butthurt if this news is fake from you're thought, that shows your (Indian) anxiety are high through this projected purchased, EVEN TST funds for our F-16 and Indian media/govt start blabbring about this fund, And 72 projected Purchase will from CSF (COALITION SUPPORT FUNDS) not Pakistan hard cash as various senior, professional and MOD members here on PDF, if you think this news wake why you're posting here, concern your PATHETIC country first then concern other countries India full of big problems,every thing is possible, you brainless twit @danger007



danger007 said:


> When you have no point .. but the personal insults..


then why you posting in this thread that show your (Indian) anxiety levels are high for this projected purchase @danger007

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## doorstar

if the injuns were not so retarded they would help Pakistan get/achieve parity with them to prevent Pakistan resorting to other last resort measures

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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Threads created by some members ... as if they know something classified..


@Khafee is lot more reliable poster then the fighter jet pilot poster @Zarvan and other poster @danger007

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## danger007

pakistanipower said:


> So why you have a butthurt if this news is fake from you're thought, that shows your (Indian) anxiety are high through this projected purchased, EVEN TST funds for our F-16 and Indian media/govt start blabbring about this fund, And 72 projected Purchase will from CSF (COALITION SUPPORT FUNDS) not Pakistan hard cash as various senior, professional and MOD members here on PDF, if you think this news wake why you're posting here, concern your PATHETIC country first then concern other countries India full of big problems,every thing is possible, you brainless twit @danger007
> 
> 
> then why you posting in this thread that show your (Indian) anxiety levels are high for this projected purchase @danger007


See again you are going personal and insulting my Country .. am member of this forum.. am expressing my view... I really don't care about your nonsense... I don't see it happening, we still not finalized 100 + fighter jet deal... we are being offered production facility... mutual feeling...



pakistanipower said:


> @Khafee is lot more reliable poster then the fighter jet pilot poster @Zarvan and other poster @danger007




May be or may not be.. i don't claim such things...


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## Dazzler

VCheng said:


> Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice ... ...



Shame on you still..

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## Flight of falcon

Came across this interesting article and the exact figure of 9 billion dollars worth of deal. USA knows that Turkey and Indians have gone the Russian way with the large ticket items so why loose Pakistan? Why not sell them weapons and increase their influence exponentially and create thousands of new jobs. It’s win win for the USA .


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.rt.com/news/461877-pakistan-russian-weapons-offer/amp/

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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> See again you are going personal and insulting my Country .. am member of this forum.. am expressing my view... I really don't care about your nonsense... I don't see it happening, we still not finalized 100 + fighter jet deal... we are being offered production facility... mutual feeling...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May be or may not be.. i don't claim such things...


So why you posting your crap again and again, if think this news is Fake its none of your concern that we will get 72 or not and you did the lot of same thing (personal, country insult) here on PDF in past against Pakistani members and Pakistan, stop trolling @danger007



danger007 said:


> May be or may not be.. i don't claim such things...


none of your concern that we will get 72 or not, why you always trolled in Pakistani defense matters/threads @danger

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Humble Analyst said:


> So this Pakistan will get what is she giving back just the Afghan deal or...?


Looks like IK isn’t shy of keeping anything off the table....



Khafee said:


> Like @Irfan Baloch said, there is fire of galactic proportions across the border (something like that).
> 
> Hence them twisting in agony. Like I said earlier, there is more good news coming IA.


The USA usually trades “better news” for “good news”!!! Hence, they are still surviving!!! Otherwise, it’s like losing to the 7x smaller arch enemy and still remaining belligerent (in the cyber world)....

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## loanranger

Heard somewhere that Turkey is buying jf 17s from us. Of course time will tell if true currently no official source.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

loanranger said:


> Heard somewhere that Turkey is buying jf 17s from us. Of course time will tell if true currently no official source.


This thread has become like the Genie coming out of Aladdin's lamp....

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## Syed Asif Bukhari

loanranger said:


> Heard somewhere that Turkey is buying jf 17s from us. Of course time will tell if true currently no official source.


Absurd and utterly foolish assumption. Why does turkey need JF17 . It does not suit their need and doctrine. They are the largest operator of F16s after Israel.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Flight of falcon said:


> Came across this interesting article and the exact figure of 9 billion dollars worth of deal. USA knows that Turkey and Indians have gone the Russian way with the large ticket items so why loose Pakistan? Why not sell them weapons and increase their influence exponentially and create thousands of new jobs. It’s win win for the USA .
> 
> 
> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.rt.com/news/461877-pakistan-russian-weapons-offer/amp/


02-26/27/28 have shown Pak and India have no qualms to show off their latest gadgets in a manner and spirit of “sportsmanship”.....

*IK put forth the downing of the Indian fighter during an interview in the DC as if it were a match of a game


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## Syed Asif Bukhari

It is more of a wishful thinking rather than a factual reality. Yankees have blocked the deal of Ah1z . I hope it happens but chances are very slim. Let's hope our current fleet of F16 remains operational and we get permission for USA to use f16s for strike role rather only for defensive action


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## doorstar

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> Yankees have blocked the deal of Ah1z


NO, THEY DID NOT!
pay and collect is what they said

although they did block the Atak from Turkey

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## Syed Asif Bukhari

doorstar said:


> NO, THEY DID NOT!
> pay and collect is what they said
> 
> although they did block the Atak from Turkey


They know we don't have money. Its polite way of blocking the deal without diplomatic backlash.


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## Silicon0000

This News could be a bait for Indians


----------



## Flight of falcon

doorstar said:


> NO, THEY DID NOT!
> pay and collect is what they said
> 
> although they did block the Atak from Turkey




True AH1Z were never blocked .... there is an outstanding payment due. Pakistan is told that they payment arrangement will be made as soon as America s sign off with Talibans hopefully in the first week of August and then a week later Inter Afghan dialogues will start and that’s where the real deals will be made upon success.

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> Absurd and utterly foolish assumption. Why does turkey need JF17 . It does not suit their need and doctrine. They are the largest operator of F16s after Israel.


They have old F-4s to be replaced and JF-17 is a good candidate to replace for their old F-4s @Syed Asif Bukhari

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## Syed Asif Bukhari

pakistanipower said:


> They have old F-4s to be replaced and JF-17 is a good candidate to replace for their old F-4s @Syed Asif Bukhari


Last time I heard they were replacing F4s with F35s. As F35 deal is now null and void, I don't think they will compromise on any thing less than 4+++ generation.

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> They know we don't have money. Its polite way of blocking the deal without diplomatic backlash.


Block 72/V will come from CSF funds as various senior/professional/think tank/MOD members suggest/assume, not hard cash from Pakistan @Syed Asif Bukhari


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## Syed Asif Bukhari

pakistanipower said:


> Block 72/V will come from CSF funds as various senior/professional/think tank/MOD members suggest/assume, not hard cash from Pakistan @Syed Asif Bukhari


I were talking about Ah1z vipers . Yankees are not releasing FMF funds so far


----------



## Ultima Thule

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> Last time I heard they were replacing F4s with F35s. As F35 deal is now null and void, I don't think they will compromise on any thing less than 4+++ generation.


So block-3 will have good Chance for their F-4 because JF-17 BL-3 is a 4.5 gen light weight fighter jet, and their no 4+++ gen fighter jets in the world, only internationally accepted terms are 4th/4.5th/5th gen jets @Syed Asif Bukhari



Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> I were talking about Ah1z vipers . Yankees are not releasing FMF funds so far


OP is better knows then you and me, because he has some insider information, forget AH-1Z vipers as an alternatives we can buys Z-10 from China or ATAK from turkey when Turkish indigenous turbo shaft engine will ready, AH-1Z is not a big ticket item you know @Syed Asif Bukhari


----------



## Syed Asif Bukhari

pakistanipower said:


> So block-3 will have good Chance for their F-4 because JF-17 BL-3 is a 4.5 gen light weight fighter jet, and their no 4+++ gen fighter jets in the world, only internationally accepted terms are 4th/4.5th/5th gen jets @Syed Asif Bukhari


We will see.Honestly, there are more chances of turks going for a Russian aircraft rather than JF17 .


----------



## Ultima Thule

Syed Asif Bukhari said:


> We will see.Honestly, there are more chances of turks going for a Russian aircraft rather than JF17 .


Least Chance because Turkey is currently Nato member state, Russian hesitate to sell their top of the line fighter jets to turkey because of spying from west/USA @Syed Asif Bukhari


----------



## Basel

Khafee said:


> Reminds one, of how villagers in the sub continent mourn a death, wailing and screaming.
> 
> 
> Thank You Sir, for your kind wishes. Appreciate it.
> 
> This goes for everyone on this thread who has supported me, and believed in me. You are the power that drives #khafee Leaks
> 
> IA more high octane gasoline coming for the haters, soon!



Pardon me for going off topic, but as you say you are very knowledgeable person, then tell me what is India up to in IOK, LOC etc. ??


----------



## VCheng

Dazzler said:


> Shame on you still..



LOL. Whatever happened to "you can't fool me again" as George Bush said it.


----------



## JohnWick

pakistanipower said:


> Least Chance because Turkey is currently Nato member state, Russian hesitate to sell their top of the line fighter jets to turkey because of spying from west/USA @Syed Asif Bukhari


well I think mig-29 is also used by US Airforce?


----------



## VCheng

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> This thread has become like the Genie coming out of Aladdin's lamp....



Regardless of what wishes the genie grants, Pakistan will have to work hard for it, that much is assured. Similarly, USA will have to make it worth Pakistan's while in return. Nothing is ever free in international geopolitics.

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## Ultima Thule

JohnWick said:


> well I think mig-29 is also used by US Airforce?


only for experimental purpose, to get the technology to understand and how to defeat MIG-29/Su-27 in a war, since cold war first example of the type was Mig-25 which was deflected too Japan @JohnWick

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## Flight of falcon

Basel said:


> Pardon me for going off topic, but as you say you are very knowledgeable person, then tell me what is India up to in IOK, LOC etc. ??



They are about to end Kashmir special status and this is in preparation for that.


----------



## HRK

cloud4000 said:


> Show me the money.


indian and their known obsessions .....






*and *

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## Trailer23

JohnWick said:


> well I think mig-29 is also used by US Airforce?


Nope. The US doesn't use any USSR/Russian equipment.

There was a time after the Soviet Union had broken up when the US went & picked up some jets from Ukraine & Kyrgyzstan (I think), but those were used for Tests. MiG-29 may of been one type purchased back then.

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## Ultima Thule

Trailer23 said:


> Nope. The US doesn't use any USSR/Russian equipment.
> 
> There was a time after the Soviet Union had broken up when the US went & picked up some jets from Ukraine & Kyrgyzstan (I think), but those were used for Tests. MiG-29 may of been one type purchased back then.


And remember sir after the reunion of Germany they tested their F-16 with east German Mig-29 @Trailer23


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## Gorgin Khan

Khafee said:


> Authorization for the new ones is limited to *24*, not 36, for now.
> Plus there is a "*remote possibility*" that these could have the higher thrust GE-132 engines, hence Blk70.
> GE engines, have a better reliability rate in desert conditions, in comparison to PW btw.
> 
> The Current PAF fleet, all of it, will get APG-83.
> 
> *Who is paying* - I left that part our on purpose, I want these so called "Think Tanks" aka tin cans, to prove them selves, instead of firing arrows in the air, and howling in the wind, this is a good opportunity for them to redeem their credibility, after they fell flat on their faces with the C-17 saga.
> 
> Have a nice day!



Hmmmm !The wind is blowing from the middle east

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## Khafee

Gorgin Khan said:


> Hmmmm !The wind is blowing from the middle east



Back in the 70's ~80's when we had a house in Khi, west facing houses always demanded a premium.

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## Path-Finder

Khafee said:


> *Who is paying* - I left that part our on purpose, I want these so called "Think Tanks" aka tin cans, to prove them selves, instead of firing arrows in the air, and howling in the wind, this is a good opportunity for them to redeem their credibility, after they fell flat on their faces with the C-17 saga.


you are teasing us way too much!

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## syed_yusuf

what a waste of bandwith .. nothing is coming nor PAF is going for any blk 72. the best will be some used F-16 A/B mlued may be from Jordan or may be a squadron of newly build but slightly used blk52+. 

the only thing that could happen is the Viper upgrade of BLk52+ and Mlued F-16 with an AESA radar. may be few more Aim-120C7's, HMD or AIM-9X.

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## mingle

doorstar said:


> I am not saying that it is true or false, but why are you all (injun/irani/afghani and their minions) setting your arses on fire and doing overtime to deny something that according to you all isn't even true?


Logical step for PAF is blk 72 easy to integrate state of the Art can outgun Rafale

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## Pakistansdefender

Khafee said:


> Back in the 70's ~80's when we had a house in Khi, west facing houses always demanded a premium.


Sir exactly when do you expect this news to be made public? 
In Imran khan September visit of unga?
Or if the draft with taliban took shape? 
I mean your sources told you this is going to happen but can you give us some time frame?

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## Khafee

Pakistansdefender said:


> Sir exactly when do you expect this news to be made public?
> In Imran khan September visit of unga?
> Or if the draft with taliban took shape?
> I mean your sources told you this is going to happen but can you give us some time frame?


I cant give you a time frame, but within the next week or two, something should be available publicly.

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## Pakistansdefender

Khafee said:


> I cant give you a time frame, but within the next week or two, something should be available publicly.


That soon. 
Wao.. I was expecting Atleast 3
2 to 3 months. Let's see, I hope its true . 
Anyways I see nothing planed between 2 countries like air cheif visit to us or something .

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## Irfan Baloch

VCheng said:


> Regardless of what wishes the genie grants, Pakistan will have to work hard for it, that much is assured. Similarly, USA will have to make it worth Pakistan's while in return. Nothing is ever free in international geopolitics.


worth every dollar and effort that Jet

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## karakoram

May be asif ghafoor has hinted something during Us visit some kind of surprise. [emoji85][emoji85][emoji85]

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> worth every dollar and effort that Jet



Whatever value the jet offers is up to Pakistan to decide, of course, whether it is worth the price, or not. Its abilities are above reproach by most accounts.

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> I cant give you a time frame, but within the next week or two, something should be available publicly.


Waiting @Khafee gate next episode. Sir u feel it will be a package or every deal will be different.

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## ziaulislam

Khafee said:


> I cant give you a time frame, but within the next week or two, something should be available publicly.


If thats soon that its essential apporved and just waiting paper work..i was thinking of 6+ months

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> If thats soon that its essential apporved and just waiting paper work..i was thinking of 6+ months


Backdoor thing u mean?


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## imadul

Tamiyah said:


> Turkey is not dumb that they were ready to dumped out of F35 program just for S400. There was a whole reason behind it. Its better to explore Turkish S400 thread rather than aking here.


Question was not about S-400. There is something between the lines.
@gambit explained.
I do think when OEM export they have some safety measures so that their designs cant be used freely against them.

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## Thorough Pro

Why go to us and China, ask your civilian and military chiefs, how many shlongs did the feel? they even brought one to show the world. btw I hope you are not above the clouds or you won't understand anything





cloud4000 said:


> Bending over is what you Pakistanis do best. Ask the Americans, the Saudis, the Chinese...
> 
> 
> 
> CSF is compensation for logistical and military support given to US. They are funds that are directly reimbursed to Pakistan, which can use it any way it wants, including to buy US weapons. Don't conflate it with military aid, which is a completely different thing and does require the purchase of US weapons.
> 
> So, in fact, CSF can be used for things other than buying US weapons. That Pakistan used to either furnish its foreign reserves or buy US weapons was Pakistan's decision, not US.
> 
> You really need to do your homework.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, enjoy the moment...while it lasts.



and I said you are talking because of your experience of Tejas, world can turnaround things pretty quick, especially if its an active product 



danger007 said:


> I think you failed to understand what i said... i said, fighter jet is not toy.. to say readily available... you are pretty much off topic...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much mutual feeling... just some guys have emotional imbalance, either feeling excited or getting depressed..

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## danger007

pakistanipower said:


> So why you posting your crap again and again, if think this news is Fake its none of your concern that we will get 72 or not and you did the lot of same thing (personal, country insult) here on PDF in past against Pakistani members and Pakistan, stop trolling @danger007
> 
> 
> none of your concern that we will get 72 or not, why you always trolled in Pakistani defense matters/threads @danger




Trolling ? How come... you guys pay more attention towards India... why you feel insecure.. am just talking about my point...

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## Flight of falcon

This article is the clearest indication of India panicking over Afghanistan and clearly states that F16 was high on their agenda and was discussed during IK visit. 

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...great-play-in-the-us/articleshow/70439938.cms


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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> what a waste of bandwith .. nothing is coming nor PAF is going for any blk 72. the best will be some used F-16 A/B mlued may be from Jordan or may be a squadron of newly build but slightly used blk52+.
> 
> the only thing that could happen is the Viper upgrade of BLk52+ and Mlued F-16 with an AESA radar. may be few more Aim-120C7's, HMD or AIM-9X.



Your post is full of contradictions man. First you say nothing is coming but then maybe some used A/Bs from Jordan and a squadron of block 52s? Btw, how is an aircraft newly built but slightly used at the same time?

Secondly, if the Vipers could get an AESA radar and new weapons, that is akin to the F-16V upgrade? So you gotta stick to your guns. Either nothing is coming, something might come used or newly built, or we will upgrade our existing fleet. You cant have your foot in basically all three possibilities that exist =)


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Trolling ? How come... you guys pay more attention towards India... why you feel insecure.. am just talking about my point...


We are not obsessed India at all our media rarely quoted India, and then you look your media/govt which are start blaming/obsessed to Pakistan since pulwama attacks with no solid proof that terrorists comes from Pakistan and what happened 26/27 Feb sorry to burst your bubble sir your superiority ego over Pakistan is nothing we did prove on 26/27 FEB, now who Trolling look at your negative ratings, you're trolling not me @danger007

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## Gripen9

The $125 Million TST program will see an additional 60 contractors arrive at PAF bases for oversight. Since we already have them monitoring blk52 at JacobAbad, I would think these are additional personnel coming in for upcoming deliveries ?? @Khafee

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## mingle

Gripen9 said:


> The $125 Million TST program will see an additional 60 contractors arrive at PAF bases for oversight. Since we already have them monitoring blk52 at JacobAbad, I would think these are additional personnel coming in for upcoming deliveries ?? @Khafee


I think it's about engine enhancement of current fleet not to police


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## danger007

may be monitoring purpose... 



mingle said:


> I think it's about engine enhancement of current fleet not to police


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> View attachment 571480
> may be monitoring purpose...


So what is the Problem for that, you have similar monitoring Packages for your US military equipment, nothing special about its, and there is hope that will get Block-70 with this TST funds/package @danger007

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## TheDarkKnight

danger007 said:


> View attachment 571480
> may be monitoring purpose...


125 million just for monitoring? And there was no monitoring until now?

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## danger007

TheDarkKnight said:


> 125 million just for monitoring? And there was no monitoring until now?




Logistical support and services along with deployment of 60 personnel... end use monitoring..



pakistanipower said:


> So what is the Problem for that, you have similar monitoring Packages for your US military equipment, nothing special about its, and there is hope that will get Block-70 with this TST funds/package @danger007




If you have problem with my post just report it ir ignore it... i don't mind, am responding to that post.. if the deal not yet done then purpose of deploying personnel for logistical service and maintenance???


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Logistical support and services along with deployment of 60 personnel... end use monitoring..


You have similar packages that US military tech will not fall in wrong hand (China/Russia) @danger007


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## TheDarkKnight

danger007 said:


> Logistical support and services along with deployment of 60 personnel... end use monitoring..


Yes its for logistics support - which mainly includes routine spares and minor upgrades/changes. No details have been provided though.

The end user monitoring mechanism has always been in place since day 1. Your post is making it sound like Pak govt is *now* spending 125 million for monitoring purposes which is absurd.


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## danger007

TheDarkKnight said:


> Yes its for logistics support - which mainly includes routine spares and minor upgrades/changes No details have been provided though.
> 
> The end user monitoring mechanism has always been in place since day 1. Your post is making it sound like Pak govt is now spending 125 million for monitoring purposes which is absurd.




Of course but it means some enhancement in the monitoring purpose...


----------



## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> If you have problem with my post just report it ir ignore it... i don't mind, am responding to that post..


So you you don't accepting the fact you have also Similar TST packages that US tech will not fall into wrong hand ( China/Russia) and Same goes to PAkistan (China) this the routine package by USA, nothing special about it @danger007


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## danger007

pakistanipower said:


> You have similar packages that US military tech will not fall in wrong hand (China/Russia) @danger007




We have Poseidon etc stuff... we are not close to China...


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## TheDarkKnight

danger007 said:


> Of course but it means some enhancement in the monitoring purpose...


So there is a support package worth 125 million, and it includes end user monitoring as well. I don't know where you draw the conclusion of “enhanced monitoring” - what ever that means.
And on top of this its Pakistan making the requesting for enhanced monitoring and paying for it as well, which apparently was blocked due to cold relations between US and Pakistan .... absurd!


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## Ultima Thule

[Q


danger007 said:


> We have Poseidon etc stuff... we are not close to China...


But you has Russian ally, US don't want that their latest military tech will fall in the hand of Russians @danger007


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## TheDarkKnight

danger007 said:


> We have Poseidon etc stuff... we are not close to China...


Being close or not to China does not matter - US protects its tech especially ITAR controlled tech.

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## danger007

TheDarkKnight said:


> So there is a support package worth 125 million, and it includes end user monitoring as well. I don't know where you draw the conclusion of “enhanced monitoring” - what ever that means.
> And its Pakistan requesting this enhanced monitoring and paying for it as well .... absurd!




As they already doing the monitoring thing.. may be they will improve the monitoring thing after recent saga..


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## TheDarkKnight

danger007 said:


> As they already doing the monitoring thing.. may be they will improve the monitoring thing after recent saga..


Why would Pakistan request US for this and pay 125 million as well?

Anyway continue to believe whatever you like to - you may even believe these are all for just new cameras in space to track these F16s


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## danger007

TheDarkKnight said:


> Being close or not to China does not matter - US protects its tech especially ITAR controlled tech.




He mentioned about china... it depends on deal clauses... may vary.


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> As they already doing the monitoring thing.. may be they will improve the monitoring thing after recent saga..


This mean nothing we can't use our F-16 against India in any Future conflicts with India, we are free to use our F-16 against any enemy, this just logistic support package with engine improvements @danger007

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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> As they already doing the monitoring thing.. may be they will improve the monitoring thing after recent saga..


Nada
They are very happy seeing AIM-120’s blow your jets out of the sky. As much as you can try to parrot that false insinuation.

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## danger007

Oscar said:


> Nada
> They are very happy seeing AIM-120’s blow your jets out of the sky. As much as you can try to parrot that false insinuation.



Yeah yeah whatever keeps you happy.. doesn't matter at all..


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Yeah yeah whatever keeps you happy.. doesn't matter at all..


And why do you thinks that will not buy block-72, stop trolling @danger007

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## Dazzler

danger007 said:


> Yeah yeah whatever keeps you happy.. doesn't matter at all..



It does to your airforce. They ran to buy an obsolete missile to compensate in a hurry.

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## Tank131

The additional technical support will include end user monitoring of the equipment. My suspicion is that with India likely not going for F-21, and the additional fighters (likely Rafale) will heavily tilt a balance of power in the region, to maintain parity there may be some (if not all) of the claims that @Khafee made may be true. I am more inclined to think that there may a SABR upgrade (to F-16V standards), not sure how selling a bunch of new build F-16 blk 70 to PAF will fly in congress, ir how PAF would afford it, but upgrading may be doable and affordable. With that said, it will also be able to be used by trump admin to say it is a reliable way to keep influence in Pakistan (which US currently has nearly none). The additional logistics will be used to give tech support to the fleet during upgrade AND expand the monitoring process.

What i can say is i would highly doubt that US gives 2 craps that PAF shot down IAF fighters. Of course PAF can use it against IAF. AMRAAMs werent sold to shoot doen jets from Zimbabwe... They were to protect Pakistan. If there exists an Indian clause in the end user agreement, it will be taking the jets into Indian airspace and striking India... Not defending Pakistan. The US would lose all credibility of its defense products if that were the case. The event worked out well for the US. It showed the world that the US equipment still dominates everything, even against the Big Bad MKI, ruler of all the land, and even M2K whose pilots allegedly turned tail and ran. It shut up dumb *** claims that adding Israeli Jammers to flying shittt boxes will blind other fighters the idiotic way IAF claimed after flying bisons against F-15C (which had their radars turned off). It gives the Trump administration the ability to show congress that look, they pulled this operation off without us or even telling us...we need to have leverage. And it was all done while maintaining any end user agreement not to strike India with F-16s given that only JF-17 and Mirage were used in the strikes and F-16 was only defending its airspace.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well I am glad it is all sorted out
What I would wonder is may be since the whole *F21 India* concept is down the drain


May be Pakistan , can be the designated Assembling / Manufacturing partner for this F16 Block 70/72

It would make sense since our Total F16 Figures will exceed 100 crafts after new planes will arrive , we might need to attain certification to be a authorized manufacturer for the birds
Labor cost in Pakistan is low so it will workout well


USA owes 9 Billion in Coalition Support Bills to Pakistan's Military , so it would partially be used to claim the F16 Upgrades

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## Tamiyah

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well I am glad it is all sorted out
> What I would wonder is may be since the whole *F21 India* concept is down the drain
> 
> 
> May be Pakistan , can be the designated Assembling / Manufacturing partner for this F16 Block 70/72
> 
> It would make sense since our Total F16 Figures will exceed 100 crafts after new planes will arrive , we might need to attain certification to be a authorized manufacturer for the birds
> Labor cost in Pakistan is low so it will workout well
> 
> 
> USA owes 9 Billion in Coalition Support Bills to Pakistan's Military , so it would partially be used to claim the F16 Upgrades


Har cheez aihista aahista hoti hai. Aik dam se apko woh Assembly partner kese bana lein?


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## Tank131

There will only be an F-16 plant in Pakistan when the rest of the world is on 8th gen star fighters. Make no mistake, the only reason any of this may come true (and despite whats i wrote above, i am still very skeptical) is because USA Needs leverage and influence in Pakistan. It is not to buddy up.

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## Affan-khan

In addition to the support for Pakistan, the US also approved $670 million worth of support for India’s C-17 transport plane fleet.

Approval to support US-built aircraft for the two South Asian rivals was approved by the US State Department and announced simultaneously by DSCA.

Separately, the DSCA said that India asked to buy spare parts and test equipment for their Boeing C-17 transport planes, and is seeking personnel training, among other things, “for an estimated cost of $670 million”.


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## volatile

War Thunder said:


> tbh your post is the most childish I have read in all of the 40+ pages yet.
> Doesn't matter its assumption or hope, but its not fan boys nor a joke, nor childish. If nothing else, its pretty much of a possibility and something worth thinking and discussing about.
> 
> I am just wondering what's gonna happen to your childish face if this becomes reality tomorrow?


Tomorrow I will have a new face and infact better opportunity to snub me then rather than today ,For reading 40 pages and my post is AWFUL ,here are few threads care to comment on these as well .

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russ...e-of-su-35-fighters-to-pakistan.571625/page-3

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-to-buy-40-su-35-or-euro-fighter-soon.446227/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-may-buy-advanced-mig-35-fighter-jets-from-russia.615479/
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/j10-b-confirmed-credible-source.541554/page-3
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pk-m...gle-shot-stealth-fighter-with-chengdu.594151/

Aram hai aur shall I share more

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## Riz

danger007 said:


> Here comes the expert.. another tweet from Trump may get back to reality..


Keep waiting for his tweet..


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## Silicon0000

volatile said:


> Tomorrow I will have a new face and infact better opportunity to snub me then rather than today ,For reading 40 pages and my post is AWFUL ,here are few threads care to comment on these as well .
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russ...e-of-su-35-fighters-to-pakistan.571625/page-3
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-to-buy-40-su-35-or-euro-fighter-soon.446227/
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-may-buy-advanced-mig-35-fighter-jets-from-russia.615479/
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/j10-b-confirmed-credible-source.541554/page-3
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pk-m...gle-shot-stealth-fighter-with-chengdu.594151/
> 
> Aram hai aur shall I share more




Jhapatna, Palatna, Palat Kar Jhapatna
Lahoo Garam Rakhne Ka Hai Ek Bahana


Get used-to of it man ........ Here slight possibility means done deal ...... Fanboys threads needs to be taken like that. 

By the way, there are some reliable people here and you can trust their post so it's up to you and your experience whether you can identify them or not.


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## Tomahawk

Tank131 said:


> not sure how selling a bunch of new build F-16 blk 70 to PAF


The original agreement of F-16 Block 50/52 purchase with US was of 18 jets with 18 options. The geopolitical situation is again favorable for Pakistan in exercising the option of 18 jets but with Block 70/72 upgrade.
Historically it is always the Afghan issue that has brought F-16s to Pakistan. Same scenario is prevailing; so new F-16s cannot be ruled out.

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## volatile

Silicon0000 said:


> Jhapatna, Palatna, Palat Kar Jhapatna
> Lahoo Garam Rakhne Ka Hai Ek Bahana
> 
> 
> Get used-to of it man ........ Here slight possibility means done deal ...... Fanboys threads needs to be taken like that.
> 
> By the way, there are some reliable people here and you can trust their post so it's up to you and your experience whether you can identify them or not.


Well said ,Im a practical and now an old man considering the things i see , Its another lolly pop and waste of threads ,day F16s will come (physically in Pakistan) i will take back my words till that time Im sorry i cant be part of this idiocy .

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## Silicon0000

Those who thinks F-16 and BVR missiles are to fight Terrorists are living in fool's paradise. Terrorists don't have anything that needs to be counter by BVRs.

Maximum limitation of F-16 use against India is probably they can't be used to do only first pre-emptive strike after entering inside India. Rest all seems to be allowed. We can use them for any attack/defense role from our soil, we can also use them after there is an strike inside our territory. The definition of defensive role is also very vague.

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## Armchair

volatile said:


> Well said ,Im a practical and now an old man considering the things i see , Its another lolly pop and waste of threads ,day F16s will come (physically in Pakistan) i will take back my words till that time Im sorry i cant be part of this idiocy .


Then why waste your time typing this message and spoiling the environment?

The day the F-16s come, oh those golden goose that they are, that day whether it comes or not, is not impacted by this forum. So why even be on a forum then? Surely, everything will happen anyways, whether we discuss them or not. 

So the point actually is quite illogical and pedantic. We come to this forum to discuss, share ideas, analyze. If x is likely to happen, what should we do before, during or after x? What about y and z? How do we deal with the threat of I, J and K? This is the bread and butter of having a discussion forum. And that, sadly is the part you missed the relevance of.

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## Flight of falcon

volatile said:


> Well said ,Im a practical and now an old man considering the things i see , Its another lolly pop and waste of threads ,day F16s will come (physically in Pakistan) i will take back my words till that time Im sorry i cant be part of this idiocy .




And who asked you to respond and feel special ? If you don’t like the topic just move on and spare me from your incoherent ramblings..

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## Keysersoze

Dazzler said:


> It does to your airforce. They ran to buy an obsolete missile to compensate in a hurry.


I wouldn't say the missiles are completely useless. It does show how they realised they were running short.....and wouldn't have enough in a shooting war...

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## Armchair

doorstar said:


> in this instance, does the monitoring not mean that only Americans repair/maintain these aircraft and that no Pakistani or Chinese start taking them apart to see what is what in order to reproduce them in-house without American involvement?



Pakistani technicians can maintain these aircraft. The issue arises with certain sensitive modules. Pak technicians are forbidden from opening these modules (as are the airforces of many countries that fly the F-16s). What is inside these modules? Sensitive tech. And as Turkey found to its chagrin, a bug that allowed the US to monitor the aircraft. _Pak technicians can however replace those modules wholesale, not look into them. The seals have to be kept intact and these modules are then handled by the US personnel. _

Now, these extra personnel are mainly needed because these F-16s have been on high alert for quite a while since, during and before 27th Feb. This means that a lot of parts need to be maintained and replaced. These may require specialists from LM to take a look at, and to engage in their maintenance.

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## The Eagle

However, seeing some of our friends from cross the border being disturbed of the topic in hand which by the time & many of us acknowledged that is merely a discussion based upon ideas & possibilities; still they had concern & referred Congress influence in regard to any deal. For mere reference and understanding as when certain things have to be done by the POTUS; it goes well. I just came across this news piece and thought to share that if, by any chance we are looking at a mutual requirement/offer about Viper upgrade for our existing PAF Fleet along with 24 additional brand new frames; it has to be the President as key for the deal. 

Why Trump & why this deal; is already been discussed in length with every possibility. So this deal is workable and can be done based upon consent, understanding, acknowledgment & interests of both the parties involved.

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## Keysersoze

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


I am going to take a sip of the cool aid and ask what weapons are linked with this deal. AMRAAM C7 Or D and aim 9x?

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## Armchair

Keysersoze said:


> I wouldn't say the missiles are completely useless. It does show how they realised they were running short.....and wouldn't have enough in a shooting war...



What they just bought is approximately an active and modernized R-27, something akin to the developmental K-27. The R-27 is a very unique missile. It was designed with modularity in mind, allowing it to be upgraded constantly. Perhaps the only known AAM in the world which is built on complete modularity and upgradability. 

This time the Russians probably sold something serious to them, to maintain their credibility. The R-27 will be able to either outrange the AMRAAM or bring India on par with us. An active R-27 would be a very serious threat. And a passive IR based R-27 could be a silent killer. Pak wanted this at some point in time as there is no equivalent in the world to the passive R-27 other than the Mica-IR, which has a range disability. 

We should not act like Indians and take this news in a snigger. It will give them the ability to shoot back. Perhaps with a lower pk, but shoot back nevertheless. In the last duel it was us with a long sword and them with a short sword. Now they too have a less refined long sword (but a long sword nevertheless).

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## Dazzler

Armchair said:


> What they just bought is approximately an active and modernized R-27, something akin to the developmental K-27. The R-27 is a very unique missile. It was designed with modularity in mind, allowing it to be upgraded constantly. Perhaps the only known AAM in the world which is built on complete modularity and upgradability.
> 
> This time the Russians probably sold something serious to them, to maintain their credibility. The R-27 will be able to either outrange the AMRAAM or bring India on par with us. An active R-27 would be a very serious threat. And a passive IR based R-27 could be a silent killer. Pak wanted this at some point in time as there is no equivalent in the world to the passive R-27 other than the Mica-IR, which has a range disability.
> 
> We should not act like Indians and take this news in a snigger. It will give them the ability to shoot back. Perhaps with a lower pk, but shoot back nevertheless. In the last duel it was us with a long sword and them with a short sword. Now they too have a less refined long sword (but a long sword nevertheless).



Sheer over exaggeration of an obsolete system even with active seeker


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## War Thunder

volatile said:


> Tomorrow I will have a new face and infact better opportunity to snub me then rather than today ,For reading 40 pages and my post is AWFUL ,here are few threads care to comment on these as well .
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russ...e-of-su-35-fighters-to-pakistan.571625/page-3
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-to-buy-40-su-35-or-euro-fighter-soon.446227/
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-may-buy-advanced-mig-35-fighter-jets-from-russia.615479/
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/j10-b-confirmed-credible-source.541554/page-3
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pk-m...gle-shot-stealth-fighter-with-chengdu.594151/
> 
> Aram hai aur shall I share more





Read all the threads you posted. Compare them with this thread, and then ask your self why?
You'll get your answer.

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## Armchair

Dazzler said:


> Sheer over exaggeration of an obsolete system even with active seeker



Be a think tank and contribute something more than one liners. I've looked through your posts, you lack substance. Don't know how you became a think-tank. Between, I thought you didn't agree with this thread?

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## Maarkhoor

Dazzler said:


> Sheer over exaggeration of an obsolete system even with active seeker


Not the case and I can't say more because I don't know which missile they are getting since one of them have a range of 170 + Kms and SU-30's radar is enough to guide this missile plus it have a active seeker, which would put PAF in great danger.

R-27T: up to 40 km
R-27R: up to 80 km
R-27P: up to 80 km
R-27ER: up to 130 km
R-27ET: up to 120 km
R-27EP: up to 130 km
R-27EA: up to 130 km
R-27EM: up to 170 km

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## YeBeWarned

related to this topic, I asked Alan Warnes .. And his response was " Right now I don't know " .

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## Dazzler

Armchair said:


> Be a think tank and contribute something more than one liners. I've looked through your posts, you lack substance. Don't know how you became a think-tank. Between, I thought you didn't agree with this thread?



Never mind.. here is my cent

1- Artem offered R-27 to PAF in two versions during early 2000s - both got rejected.

Refer to this..
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/what-happened-to-ukraine-pakistan-air-to-air-missile-deal.305910/

2- It was Soviet Union's answer to the Aim-7F/M, hence depicted similar performance, was equally less meneuverable. Still is.

Indians have themselves to blame for this mess. They went for the early export modelof 77, now they see the trouble ahead. Derby and Mica were better bet, but they cant be used on SUs.

Even active seeker equipped 27E series lacks agility, though it offers better range.

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## Verve

Khafee said:


> Call LM and see what they say.



I could knock on their offices and ask them ... For the non belivers !

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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> Yeah yeah whatever keeps you happy.. doesn't matter at all..


Its whatever keeps you happy actually.. doesn’t matter to me.

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## Safriz

Maarkhoor said:


> Not the case and I can't say more because I don't know which missile they are getting since one of them have a range of 170 + Kms and SU-30's radar is enough to guide this missile plus it have a active seeker, which would put PAF in great danger.
> 
> R-27T: up to 40 km
> R-27R: up to 80 km
> R-27P: up to 80 km
> R-27ER: up to 130 km
> R-27ET: up to 120 km
> R-27EP: up to 130 km
> R-27EA: up to 130 km
> R-27EM: up to 170 km


yOU DO REALISE THAT ALL THESE RANGES ARE FOR A STATIC TARGET OR A VERY SLOW MOVING TARGET WHILE THE MISSILE DOES NOT HAVE TO MAKE ANY SHARP TURNS. (Darn caplocks)
On 27th February maky Pakistani jets were seen making sharp sustained turns as soon as Indians fired their missiles.
The earlier the turn starts the better as the misisle starts changing course to align with the target and loses much energy, reducing range drastically.
Point being the mentioned ranges are in ideal situation. There are many tactics by which the pilots can redusce enemy missile range to less than half.



Stealth said:


> Raja Bazar Rawalpindi may eek shaks tha jo bohat gareeb tha ... jabain maarta tha logoon ki aur maangta tha.. ahesta ahesta usnay apna business start kya kaproon ka aur jab uska business established hogaya tab b usnay ye maanganay wala kaam nahe chora behropia tha... eek din use kay eek jananay walay nay usko eek stop pe raath ko maangtay pehchaan lya aur bola ye tu maangta kyo hey halankay ub tu tera business b hey...
> 
> usnay kaha "tha tu may behkari he isliye adat nahe gaye maanganay ki jo maza ismay hey woh business may hey nahe"
> 
> so PAF aur PA aur Pakistan military ki Behkaryon wali adat nahe gaye sorry to say **** OFF soverngity of the country... I have never seen US officials doing monitoring of any airforce who have using thr manufactured fights...


same sentiments here..
We are doing well with JF-17 , Project Azm . Why brown nose USA?

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## The Eagle

شاھین میزایل said:


> as soon as Indians fired their missiles.



had the locks.

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## Keysersoze

Starlord said:


> related to this topic, I asked Alan Warnes .. And his response was " Right now I don't know " .











شاھین میزایل said:


> We are doing well with JF-17 , Project Azm . Why brown nose USA?


Because the the blk 70 will bridge the gap until the new generation arrive. the F16 has proven it's worth over allegedly superior platforms. (Remember that stupid picture of IAF personnel holding up a AMRAAM casing)

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## The Eagle

BTruth said:


> Pakistanis



Civility & manners be kept in view while posting on the Forum. As you have joined today, I will highly recommend you to read Forum Rules carefully. Productive & qualitative discussion is always welcome.

Regards,

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> However, seeing some of our friends from cross the border being disturbed of the topic in hand which by the time & many of us acknowledged that is merely a discussion based upon ideas & possibilities; still they had concern & referred Congress influence in regard to any deal. For mere reference and understanding as when certain things have to be done by the POTUS; it goes well. I just came across this news piece and thought to share that if, by any chance we are looking at a mutual requirement/offer about Viper upgrade for our existing PAF Fleet along with 24 additional brand new frames; it has to be the President as key for the deal.
> 
> Why Trump & why this deal; is already been discussed in length with every possibility. So this deal is workable and can be done based upon consent, understanding, acknowledgment & interests of both the parties involved.
> 
> View attachment 571571


So Trump is the key shows his hold on house as well.

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## Dazzler

The Eagle said:


> had the locks.



Indians?


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## The Eagle

Dazzler said:


> Indians?



Member suggested that Indian fired missiles. I tried to correct/add as they tried to have a lock and got what they deserved in return... Lock break after receiving tone, locked back & we have seen the evidence & proofs. 



mingle said:


> So Trump is the key shows his hold on house as well.



As far as it is about what happened in KSA Weapon Deal; Trump rules all the way and Congress seems to be helpless. Either a deliberate or not but in such cases, in-case of Pakistan if comes to the moment; we might see a stall in congress without rejection and Deal will go ahead.

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## BTruth

Keysersoze said:


> View attachment 571627
> 
> 
> 
> Because the the blk 70 will bridge the gap until the new generation arrive. the F16 has proven it's worth over allegedly superior platforms. (Remember that stupid picture of IAF personnel holding up a AMRAAM casing)


Why not J-10 then Americans have deceived us trillion times in the past but we are still drolling over F-solahs. it really pains me to see how naive we are. After reading all the comments and finding out how happy Pakistanis are over a piece of unconfirmed news. Plus even if these blk-70 do come they will never be comming before the jf-17 blk3. How can we forget so soon? Just like in 90s Americans took money from us and then sanctioned us. It is coming again.



The Eagle said:


> Civility & manners be kept in view while posting on the Forum. As you have joined today, I will highly recommend you to read Forum Rules carefully. Productive & qualitative discussion is always welcome.
> 
> Regards,


Ok. Sorry for those uncivil words, but that was the bitter truth what is said.

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## The Eagle

BTruth said:


> Ok. Sorry for those uncivil words, but that was the bitter truth what is said.



Truth can be told without use of abusive language or unethical words. The moment you start to misbehave; you arguments loses the worth to pay attention at all. Truth or productive criticism does not need inappropriate wording to be told.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

The Eagle said:


> As far as it is about what happened in KSA Weapon Deal; Trump rules all the way and Congress seems to be helpless. Either a deliberate or not but in such cases, in-case of Pakistan if comes to the moment; we might see a stall in congress without rejection and Deal will go ahead.


President Trump modulates and moderates the US Deep Nation (read White male folks)!!! They are armed to the teeth and have the potential to turn every night into a _Kristallnacht_ if stuffs get too far off.....

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## Armchair

These R-27s are not from Ukraine, they are from Russia. As I was saying, the R-27 is the only BVR missile designed from day 1 to be modular. They have a huge potential to be upgraded and they have been over the years. Here is an interesting thing - the Russian air force uses R-27s and not R-77s in service mostly, unless for specific purposes they use the R-77s. 

The R-27s are designed not just for use against bombers but against fighter sized targets. They are larger and heavier, and their aerodynamics are suspect to a limited extent. All this means they are likely to have lower pk (probability of shooting down an enemy aircraft). However, even with a low pk, if multiple shots are taken, and the MKI has the capacity to take multiple shots, one would have a decent weapon. 

Not too long ago @Bilal Khan 777 was discussing the need for getting some Russian BVR for the PAF and integrating them with the JFT. It would be very foolish to underestimate the latest Russian missiles just because the older R-77s of the IAF were useless on the 27th. 

What has been upgraded on the latest R-27s? Seeker and rocket motor definitely, if ECM and other components have been it is not known to me. If the rocket motor upgrade is near comparative to the AMRAAM, they will outrange Pak as the missile is bigger and heavier. How effective the seeker is going to be is another issue.

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## Keysersoze

BTruth said:


> Why not J-10 then Americans have deceived us trillion times in the past but we are still drolling over F-solahs. it really pains me to see how naive we are. After reading all the comments and finding out how happy Pakistanis are over a piece of unconfirmed news. Plus even if these blk-70 do come they will never be comming before the jf-17 blk3. How can we forget so soon? Just like in 90s Americans took money from us and then sanctioned us. It is coming again.
> 
> 
> Ok. Sorry for those uncivil words, but that was the bitter truth what is said.


Ok that you don't see the advantage of Keeping western systems frankly shows your naivety. The best path for Pakistan is not to be in one camp exclusively. What happens if China changes it policy? Solo domestic production of assets is always fraught with difficulties. The BLK 3 JF17 will be a massive improvement over it's predecessors and reduces the logistical load having an aircraft that can do the job of the A5 and F7 (with a few exceptions) BUT it is not as good as a blk 70.

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## BTruth

Keysersoze said:


> Ok that you don't see the advantage of Keeping western systems frankly shows your naivety. The best path for Pakistan is not to be in one camp exclusively. What happens if China changes it policy? Solo domestic production of assets is always fraught with difficulties. The BLK 3 JF17 will be a massive improvement over it's predecessors and reduces the logistical load having an aircraft that can do the job of the A5 and F7 (with a few exceptions) BUT it is not as good as a blk 70.



" What happens if China changes it policy?" Yes, "IF" which they have not in the past 70 years and I think you know better than me how many times US has changed their policy. US is playing the same old trick with Pakistan, tell us good things (which I am sure will never materialize given the previous record of US and how fragile the US Pak relation is) which appease people in Pakistan who somehow feel a sense of achievement whenever someone from US praises them (as if US is their Master) and successfully make us promise them all the good things US wants for their interest. If we complete those task good and well, US will help us if they liked to otherwise ditch us, and if we prove to be the unsuccessful US will blame us for all the problem and sanction us. Same thing is going to happen again. Blk70 F-16s are never coming to Pakistan not even for a mutual exercise even if US signs a contract and even if we ourself pay for them and history has already proven this. Remember what happened to F16s for which we paid 3.4B$ in 90s??

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## The Eagle

BTruth said:


> " What happens if China changes it policy?" Yes, "IF" which they have not in the past 70 years and I think you know better than me how many times US has changed their policy. US is playing the same old trick with Pakistan, tell us good things (which I am sure will never materialize given the previous record of US and how fragile the US Pak relation is) which appease people in Pakistan who somehow feel a sense of achievement whenever someone from US praises them (as if US is their Master) and successfully make us promise them all the good things US wants for their interest.



There is no need to generalize as such with the people of Pakistan. At-least you have one flag of Pakistan beside UK, your residence.


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## Keysersoze

BTruth said:


> " What happens if China changes it policy?" Yes, "IF" which they have not in the past 70 years and I think you know better than me how many times US has changed their policy. US is playing the same old trick with Pakistan, tell us good things (which I am sure will never materialize given the previous record of US and how fragile the US Pak relation is) which appease people in Pakistan who somehow feel a sense of achievement whenever someone from US praises them (as if US is their Master) and successfully make us promise them all the good things US wants for their interest. If we complete those task good and well, US will help us if they liked to otherwise ditch us, and if we prove to be the unsuccessful US will blame us for all the problem and sanction us. Same thing is going to happen again. Blk70 F-16s are never coming to Pakistan not even for a mutual exercise even if US signs a contract and even if we ourself pay for them and history has already proven this. Remember what happened to F16s for which we paid 3.4B$ in 90s??


You use simplistic and frankly insulting terms. Has it occurred to you that the PAF wants the best tools for the job and will do what it needs to get them? I also read history and the first 40 F16's changed the game in the region. The embargo happened and the PAF wisely looked at options so they wouldn't get bitten again. But look at the reaction of Pakistan's enemies reactions when the F16 shoots down their planes. They go whining to the US saying "Look what your planes are doing. Take them away from Pakistan."

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## BTruth

The Eagle said:


> There is no need to generalize as such with the people of Pakistan. At-least you have one flag of Pakistan beside UK, your residence.



I am not generalizing anything Sir, just stating a plain simple fact. There are more than 1100 replies on this thread and gather the response of Pakistanis and you will find that 90% of us seem more than happy to hear unconfirmed news despite knowing the fact that there are 90% chance that this will not happen. What would have been the response if someone from US state department had said that?
Most Pakistanis are justifying the trump's statement about annihilating Afghanistan. Tell me honestly If he had said the same words with Modi sitting beside him, would we still be justifying his statement? I know we need to have good relations with US, it is very important for us because US is a super power, but what saddens me is the slave mentality of most Pakistanis who suddenly forget all that has happened and is happening and start believing that US is their best friend while the fact is 100% against it.



Keysersoze said:


> You use simplistic and frankly insulting terms. Has it occurred to you that the PAF wants the best tools for the job and will do what it needs to get them? I also read history and the first 40 F16's changed the game in the region. The embargo happened and the PAF wisely looked at options so they wouldn't get bitten again. But look at the reaction of Pakistan's enemies reactions when the F16 shoots down their planes. They go whining to the US saying "Look what your planes are doing. Take them away from Pakistan."


Sir, I am not surprised or worried about the reaction of our enemy, its the reaction of our people who are losing their night's sleep just over a piece of unconfirmed news despite knowing the US Pak relations and how US has abused us in past with the same kind of promises.

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## The Eagle

BTruth said:


> I am not generalizing anything Sir, just stating a plain simple fact. There are more than 1100 replies on this thread and gather the response of Pakistanis and you will find that 90% of us seem more than happy to hear unconfirmed news despite knowing the fact that there are 90% chance that this will not happen. What would have been the response if someone from US state department had said that?



The response would be same that we are going to have potent & capable F-16s (upgrades possibly) to keep our enemy at bay... ref: 27th Feb. The mix of Western (US F-16s) and China provides us multiple options to deploy as per our strategy. PAF is not solely relying on single platform but the combo and that has worked better in our favour. There is no harm to have such mix of platforms and after all, F-16s have proven the worth time & again. Either you want to have relations or you don't, are the only choices and Pakistan is dealing for our own interests and so US. Nobody certified the news but, if comes to reality, its indeed a great news in regard to possible upgrade which will strengthen our line of defence. 



BTruth said:


> Most Pakistanis are justifying the trump's statement about annihilating Afghanistan. Tell me honestly If he had said the same words with Modi sitting beside him, would we still be justifying his statement? I know we need to have good relations with US, it is very important for us because US is a super power, but what saddens me is the slave mentality of most Pakistanis who suddenly forget all that has happened and is happening and start believing that US is their best friend while the fact is 100% against it.



This is not about friendship nor anyone forgets any thing. Instead of judging people's mentality, bring something worth to discuss. Before IK visit to US, our relations were almost none and no one was saddened by the same. Currently, we are dealing in the same manners that US wants to have relations....Mutual interests & benefits for both nations on equality basis.. Trump is seeking Afghanistan peace via dialogue with Taliban and safe exit from Afghanistan... That is not annihilation at all. The concept of best friend or all, was the past and we have learnt a lot.

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## Armchair

could we get Ds and Xs, with the HMD that would be a new gamechanger. Wonder what helmet is coming with the JFT - my best guess is Chinese. With HOBS on both the JFT and the F-16s, and AMRAAM Ds and PL-15s, this would definitely be a step up.

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## BTruth

The Eagle said:


> The response would be same that we are going to have potent & capable F-16s (upgrades possibly) to keep our enemy at bay... ref: 27th Feb. The mix of Western (US F-16s) and China provides us multiple options to deploy as per our strategy. PAF is not solely relying on single platform but the combo and that has worked better in our favour. There is no harm to have such mix of platforms and after all, F-16s have proven the worth time & again. Either you want to have relations or you don't, are the only choices and Pakistan is dealing for our own interests and so US. Nobody certified the news but, if comes to reality, its indeed a great news in regard to possible upgrade which will strengthen our line of defence.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not about friendship nor anyone forgets any thing. Instead of judging people's mentality, bring something worth to discuss. Before IK visit to US, our relations were almost none and no one was saddened by the same. Currently, we are dealing in the same manners that US wants to have relations....Mutual interests & benefits for both nations on equality basis.. Trump is seeking Afghanistan peace via dialogue with Taliban and safe exit from Afghanistan... That is not annihilation at all. The concept of best friend or all, was the past and we have learnt a lot.



Agreed to all you said except "*nor anyone forgets anything*". As far as judging the mentality is concerned, let me put it in another way.
Why do we react over joyously when someone from US says one or two good words for us? In my opinion, this way of thinking ultimately affects our decisions and we end up getting too little for doing too much and this is exactly what has happened in the past.

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## Armchair

BTruth said:


> " What happens if China changes it policy?" Yes, "IF" which they have not in the past 70 years and I think you know better than me how many times US has changed their policy. US is playing the same old trick with Pakistan, tell us good things (which I am sure will never materialize given the previous record of US and how fragile the US Pak relation is) which appease people in Pakistan who somehow feel a sense of achievement whenever someone from US praises them (as if US is their Master) and successfully make us promise them all the good things US wants for their interest. If we complete those task good and well, US will help us if they liked to otherwise ditch us, and if we prove to be the unsuccessful US will blame us for all the problem and sanction us. Same thing is going to happen again. Blk70 F-16s are never coming to Pakistan not even for a mutual exercise even if US signs a contract and even if we ourself pay for them and history has already proven this. Remember what happened to F16s for which we paid 3.4B$ in 90s??



I for one feel you have a lot of bitter truth in their regarding the psyche of a former British colony that still perpetuates the history that the British taught largely to its ruling class. The policies Macauley instituted to psychologically dominate us are still alive and well, and continues to shape our thinking.

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## krash

Malik Alashter said:


> I have this question since you're a nuclear power state who you think has the balls to attack you or worse invade you?!



Unfortunately, it's not entirely as simple. While nuclear weapons do offer a considerable degree of deterrence they also offer that deterrence, for any sensible state, only from a threat and/or eventuality of a considerable degree. For example, the Indian war doctrine (Cold Start Doctrine) devised after the introduction of Pakistani nuclear weapons is/was specifically designed to circumnavigate the nuclear weapons threshold while inflicting enough tactical and strategic losses on Pakistan to win India an upper hand at the negotiating table. It was a plan to swiftly capture vital Pakistani territories without allowing enough time or inflicting enough losses for Pakistan to resort to using its nukes.

Feb 27th is a good example as well. Our nuclear weapons did not stop India from attempting the stupidity that it did. Our conventional ability and response is what made them scamper away. In the absence of this conventional ability, would Pakistan have been able to retaliate and show India its place? Not at all. Would Pakistan have used its nukes? Negative. Would India have slurped back the inflated threats that it had barfed in hopes of becoming the neighborhood bully? Negative. Would India have continued to try to bully us? Of course. Did their idiocy for domestic political plays risk dooms day? Of course it did but then you can't ever underestimate human stupidity.



Malik Alashter said:


> I'd say save the money for something benefits the poor people better than wasting them on fighters tanks ships use them for infrastructure or supplement the low income people that's where the good investment



Unfortunately, this would only work on paper. History shows that those who cannot protect themselves cease to exist. The Muslim empire in Spain is a very good example, amongst many others.



Malik Alashter said:


> Sorry if my wishes make no sense to you actually that's what I like for my country



They make perfect sense but unfortunately cannot come true in the world we live in.




cloud4000 said:


> Bending over is what you Pakistanis do best. Ask the Americans, the Saudis, the Chinese...



But weren't we the unreliable 'ally' backstabbing the US and the reason for their failure in Afghanistan? The unruly masterminds behind the years of painful screeching by the US and India, for that matter? Please pick a line and stick to it.

We did bend you over on the 27th, though. Is that what you meant in the first place? I'm sure you did.




cloud4000 said:


> CSF is compensation for logistical and military support given to US. They are funds that are directly reimbursed to Pakistan, which can use it any way it wants, including to buy US weapons. Don't conflate it with military aid, which is a completely different thing and does require the purchase of US weapons.
> 
> So, in fact, CSF can be used for things other than buying US weapons. That Pakistan used to either furnish its foreign reserves or buy US weapons was Pakistan's decision, not US.



CSF is a compensation currently withheld by the US for Pakistan. If using it to buy American weapons is required for its release then so be it. Getting you to wail about it here is just a bonus.



Tank131 said:


> If there exists an Indian clause in the end user agreement, it will be taking the jets into Indian airspace and striking India... Not defending Pakistan.



I still don't understand how people, specifically the Indian establishment, can think that Pakistan would knowingly have spent billions of dollars for purchasing equipment that it could not use effectively against the only enemy that it would ever really need it against? That whole dance around presenting that scrap of an AIM-120 was hilarious and quite a bit embarrassing.



danger007 said:


> Yeah yeah whatever keeps you happy.. doesn't matter at all..



Wonder how are these measures going to stop the PAF from whooping IAF again when they already couldn't the first time. Can't blame you for hoping though, what else have you got left?

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## Irfan Baloch

krash said:


> Unfortunately, it's not entirely as simple. While nuclear weapons do offer a considerable degree of deterrence they also offer that deterrence, for any sensible state, only from a threat and/or eventuality of a considerable degree. For example, the Indian war doctrine (Cold Start Doctrine) devised after the introduction of Pakistani nuclear weapons is/was specifically designed to circumnavigate the nuclear weapons threshold while inflicting enough tactical and strategic losses on Pakistan to win India an upper hand on the negotiating table. In short, it was a plan to swiftly capture vital Pakistani territories without allowing enough time or inflicting enough losses for Pakistan to resort to using its nukes.
> 
> Feb 27th is a good example as well. Our nuclear weapons did not stop India from attempting the stupidity that they did. Our conventional ability and response is what made them scamper away. In the absence of this conventional ability, would Pakistan have been able to retaliate and show India its place? Not at all. Would Pakistan have used its nukes? Negative. Would India have slurped back the inflated threats that it had barfed in hopes of becoming the neighborhood bully? Negative. Would India have continued to try to bully us? Of course. Did their idiocy for domestic political plays risk dooms day? Of course it did but then you can't ever underestimate human stupidity.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, this would only work on paper. History shows that those who cannot protect themselves cease to exist. The Muslim empire in Spain is a very good example, amongst many others.
> 
> 
> 
> They make perfect sense but unfortunately cannot come true in the world we live in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But weren't we the unreliable 'ally' backstabbing the US and the reason for their failure in Afghanistan? The unruly masterminds behind the years of painful screeching by the US and India, for that matter? Please pick a line and stick to it.
> 
> We did bend you over on the 27th, though. Is that what you meant in the first place? I'm sure you did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSF is a compensation currently withheld by the US for Pakistan. If using it to buy American weapons is required for its release then so be it. Getting you to wail about it here is just a bonus.
> 
> 
> 
> I still don't understand how people, specifically the Indian establishment, can think that Pakistan would knowingly have spent billions of dollars for purchasing equipment that it could not use effectively against the only enemy that it would ever really need it against? That whole dance around presenting that scrap of an AIM-120 was hilarious and quite a bit embarrassing.
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder how are these measures going to stop the PAF from whooping IAF again when they already couldn't the first time. Can't blame you for hoping though, what else have you got left?


very well written post which stands out as an article it self
all I can add is , if the conventional military strength and gap becomes too overwhelming then this fact alone negates the nuclear deterrence. 
you have correctly pointed out at post Pulwama escalation by India through airstrike as one of the deliberate and calculated provocations which in Indian mind Pakistan was unable to respond conventionally and couldnt raise it to nuclear level as any justified retaliation has to be proportionate .. thankfully PAF not only proved them wrong but its proportionate retaliation was so great that it left Indians running to America complaining the PAF use of F-16s and crying the lack of Rafales



Malik Alashter said:


> I have this question since you're a nuclear power state who you think has the balls to attack you or worse invade you?!
> 
> I'd say save the money for something benefits the poor people better than wasting them on fighters tanks ships use them for infrastructure or supplement the low income people that's where the good investment
> 
> Sorry if my wishes make no sense to you actually that's what I like for my country


in an ideal world without terror and tyranny but look at middle east.. did speaking and singing love and harmony save the people and infrastructure from Daesh or the combined paramilitaries and militias

dear
there is a French saying that either you pay your own army, or if you dont then be prepared to pay the army of your enemy.

DID you get that?



your post reminds me of Sura Anfal where our Creator advises us to have our steads and weapons of war ready and prepped to keep the enemy at bay.

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## PWFI

@Khafee 

"Agaan la k sanu ishq dyan, te aap mithi niend sona ei.."

Could someone please translate it in Arabic

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## ali_raza

mashallah our khfee sahb is getting famous by day and night 
his credibility is becoming rock solid 
allah sehat de

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## Microsoft

Spectre said:


> I know its hogwash.. But i wish Pakistan really manages to acquire some decent western hardware in a public deal so that we don't have any excuse to slack off.
> 
> Relying on the incompetence of an enemy or generosity of an ally is a blunder as things are not always what they seem to be.
> 
> We have already committed this mistake twice, once in 62 and once in Kargil and have paid dearly for it. A lesson is long overdue.
> 
> As for US or for that matter Russia, its not in their interest to let India get to big for it's boots. We don't have an ideological, racial or religious common ground with either of them which could result in true strategic alliance. Nature of our relationship as always remains transactional.
> 
> We are so lucky that we have got access to all kinds of technology and hardware and we have to make hay while the sun shines. Look at China and one has to admire how far they have gone under such adverse circumstances by begging borrowing or stealing, while we rely on outsiders helping us time and again when it comes to military.technology.
> 
> What happens when US, Israel, France and Russia decide to stop supplying us in a scenario where we have to conduct another nuclear test or blow up some satellite in space.
> 
> At the risk of repeating myself for the tenth time, we should absorb as much technology while we can never minding the costs or penny pinching by our bureaucrats. S-400, Thad, F-21, Rafaels, EMALS, Drones get them all while you can along with whatever ToT and reverse engineer the rest. If sacrifices have to be made elsewhere then so be it.
> 
> Remember *All Politics, Economics and Diplomacy *is done on the back of hard military power. Without an unshakeable Military everything can turn into dust in a week



That's pretty cute. You are allowed to dream about reverse engineering anything once Tejas is being talked about by airchief and not Rafale.

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## Khafee

Verve said:


> I could knock on their offices and ask them ... For the non belivers !


Please do. Its the SDB that I'm really looking fwd to, can you get a confirmation on it?

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## mingle

ali_raza said:


> mashallah our khfee sahb is getting famous by day and night
> his credibility is becoming rock solid
> allah sehat de


Allah @Khafee ki izat rakhay



PWFI said:


> @Khafee
> 
> "Agaan la k sanu ishq dyan, te aap mithi niend sona ei.."
> 
> Could someone please translate it in Arabic


He understands urdu @Khafee in Punjabi he saying
By putting our heart on fire 
You sleeping carefree 
In other words he says Kuch news

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## Cookie Monster

Khafee said:


> Please do. Its the SDB that I'm really looking fwd to, can you get a confirmation on it?


@Khafee I was promised some tantalizing #KhafeeLeaks

Itni raatein toh larkiyon k liye nahi jaga jitni raatein in KhafeeLeaks k liye jaga hoon

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## volatile

Flight of falcon said:


> And who asked you to respond and feel special ? If you don’t like the topic just move on and spare me from your incoherent ramblings..


If it was blocked from commenting i would have opted not ,Rest every one is titles to his/her opinion ,I think putting flags of Canada dont make you open minded ,better to raise sain voice rather than lakeer ka fakeer



Armchair said:


> Then why waste your time typing this message and spoiling the environment?
> 
> The day the F-16s come, oh those golden goose that they are, that day whether it comes or not, is not impacted by this forum. So why even be on a forum then? Surely, everything will happen anyways, whether we discuss them or not.
> 
> So the point actually is quite illogical and pedantic. We come to this forum to discuss, share ideas, analyze. If x is likely to happen, what should we do before, during or after x? What about y and z? How do we deal with the threat of I, J and K? This is the bread and butter of having a discussion forum. And that, sadly is the part you missed the relevance of.


Lol on fake news waste time of every one does make sense ,the idea for this forum was to educate and discuss defence related matters not to jump on news which are not confirmed . by the way 125 Million US approval is based on following (The news to be discussed) .

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/20...chnical-logistics-support-for-f-16-programme/

*The potential sale will support US foreign policy and national security “by protecting US technology through the continued presence of US personnel that provide 24/7 end-use monitoring,” a statement by US State .*
Its a worry sign and it needs to be discussed rather than F16 block 72 sales which is not going to happen


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## Tank131

Tomahawk said:


> The original agreement of F-16 Block 50/52 purchase with US was of 18 jets with 18 options. The geopolitical situation is again favorable for Pakistan in exercising the option of 18 jets but with Block 70/72 upgrade.
> Historically it is always the Afghan issue that has brought F-16s to Pakistan. Same scenario is prevailing; so new F-16s cannot be ruled out.



Firstly if the news is true, which, with due respect for @Khafee, i am still skeptical about and will wait for it to materialize, then the deal will need to be a new deal all together. The original 18 + 18 was done with a set term limit for exercising of the option for the additional fighters. That passed and the option is not on the table anymore so a new deal would need to be struck. With that said, the US has not stopped PAF from buying, they simply stated US Aid couldn't be used to subsidize the deal which killed the purchase of 8 additional units.

As for whether PAF should go for such a deal if it is infact available and will Pakistan never learn, if this was a brand new fighter, then yes, inwould agree with you. But this is a type which you operate already and will not only add high quality to your fleet, but will take all 75+ fighter up to V standard and add another up to 24 fighters (putting you in that near 100 F-16 range) of block 70 caliber fighters. They would easily match IAF on tye field given the incredible EW capabilities and great radars, let alone their deadly pairing with Erieye. The deal would give you the best active fighter in Asia not named J-20 or Su-57 or F-35...and your would have essentially 100 of them,with at least 5 years of spares. Backed by new blk 3 JF-17 and possibly AESA upgraded Blk 1 and 2, you have 350 AESA equipped fighters with the 5th largest AWAC fleet in the world (behind USA, Russia, China and Japan). That is a very potent fleet which enables faster retirement of F-7 and Mirages amd buys time for project Azm.

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## Rehan khan 1

no more f16 for us moveover. even if there are they will not come with newer weapons such as aim 9x and aim 120d.

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## Tomahawk

Tank131 said:


> As for whether PAF should go for such a deal if it is infact available and will Pakistan never learn, if this was a brand new fighter, then yes, inwould agree with you. But this is a type which you operate already and will not only add high quality to your fleet, but will take all 75+ fighter up to V standard and add another up to 24 fighters (putting you in that near 100 F-16 range) of block 70 caliber fighters. They would easily match IAF on tye field given the incredible EW capabilities and great radars, let alone their deadly pairing with Erieye. The deal would give you the best active fighter in Asia not named J-20 or Su-57 or F-35...and your would have essentially 100 of them,with at least 5 years of spares. Backed by new blk 3 JF-17 and possibly AESA upgraded Blk 1 and 2, you have 350 AESA equipped fighters with the 5th largest AWAC fleet in the world (behind USA, Russia, China and Japan). That is a very potent fleet which enables faster retirement of F-7 and Mirages amd buys time for project Azm.



Until the Project Azm materialize surely PAF needs capability increase in order to match IAF's Rafale acquisition. The logical and fastest way is to raise a new squadron of F-16 Block 70/72 and once it is accomplished (means the new squadron is in place); then the second step is to upgrade the existing fleet of F-16 Block 50/52 to Block 70/72. This would enable PAF to have 2 frontline squadrons to take on any fighter in IAF.
This is the minimum in my opinion; anything on top of this would be a bonus.

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## ice_man

So 77 pages on BLK 70 and no official confirmation from any source so far..... well not any source that matters or is credible.

great going let's keep posting with nothing to back it up with. This is sadly the problem with us all. We would wish and wish and then hope that the wish comes true.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Khafee Leaks is good as Oak tree 







In my opinion , the F16 Assembly line move to Pakistan will serve dual purpose 

#1 The planes will support US interest with low labor cost and high quality delivery for F16 which is still widely 
used defensive aircraft

#2 Turkey will indirectly see the goods on F16 Block 70/72 , and they might consider the plane 
after loosing out on the F-35 in recent years. Pakistan-Turkey work on joint upgrades on F16 many times
and this may indirectly influence Turkey 

#3 The Balance in South Asia will be maintained with Arrival of *F16 Block 70/72* which should counter Indian 
purchase of Rafael crafts

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## Microsoft

airomerix said:


> When was the last time you found trump to be reasonable? (For the opposite party)
> 
> Its a $8 Billion dollar cheque for Pakistan. For now.



I believe Trump _can_ be more reasonable than others. Consider his take on S-400 deal with Turkey, Trump himself said it was fault of US government for not being able to sell their own system.






This could just be another attack on Obama (who he hates a lot) or just political jargon to appease Turkey. But it could also mean if Pakistan does have an alternative Trump will be willing to meet half way. Whether Pakistan has an alternative or not you and most others would know more than me.

Pakistan also has huge leverage due to Afghanistan peace process and making it look like Trump left the war as a victor which would make Trump see reason for sure as it would help is upcoming re-election campaign significantly. If everything moves in the right direction that bill could come down at least a little bit.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

At present time


Boost of US-Pakistan Trade to 15-20 Billion Mark and Move of F16 Assembly Line / Service would be a Game Changer, I could call it a major reset in Pakistan-US relations
Fast track release of Zulu should kick start things 

Trump did indicate he wishes to boost Pakistan-US trade by 5x to 10x

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## Syed1.

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Khafee Leaks is good as Oak tree
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion , the F16 Assembly line move to Pakistan will serve dual purpose
> 
> #1 The planes will support US interest with low labor cost and high quality delivery for F16 which is still widely
> used defensive aircraft
> 
> #2 Turkey will indirectly see the goods on F16 Block 70/72 , and they might consider the plane
> after loosing out on the F-35 in recent years. Pakistan-Turkey work on joint upgrades on F16 many times
> and this may indirectly influence Turkey
> 
> #3 The Balance in South Asia will be maintained with Arrival of *F16 Block 70/72* which should counter Indian
> purchase of Rafael crafts


No way in hell is F16 manufacturing facility moving to Pakistan.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well it would *make sense* as Pakistan is one of oldest operators of F16
I would consider this as a Major strategic move

Service Center for F16 , in Middle East , Lockhead martin still can score a homerun with Pakistan we already have ability to service F16's many components


It would be correct usage of Pakistan's Engineering Potential and may even revive the F16 plane's fortunes


Egypt
Iraq
Jordan
UAE
Morocco
Turkey (Likely Collaborative work) 

All fly the F16 craft and a service center in Pakistan makes sense

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## cloud4000

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well it would *make sense* as Pakistan is one of oldest operators of F16
> I would consider this as a Major strategic move
> 
> Service Center for F16 , in Middle East , Lockhead martin still can score a homerun with Pakistan we already have ability to service F16's many components
> 
> 
> It would be correct usage of Pakistan's Engineering Potential and may even revive the F16 plane's fortunes
> 
> 
> Egypt
> Iraq
> Jordan
> UAE
> Morocco
> Turkey (Likely Collaborative work)
> 
> All fly the F16 craft and a service center in Pakistan makes sense



If India rejects F-21 offer than it should offer it to Pakistan, including moving the current F-16 production line there.


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## Dil Pakistan

After 78-pages of this thread, a piece of ghazal from Faiz Ahmed Faiz for @Khafee (the question is within the poetry )

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Please do. Its the SDB that I'm really looking fwd to, can you get a confirmation on it?



Is that another leak? :p 

I personally feel PAF should just use the F-16s mainly for air superiority or deep strike and nothing else. Actually, just for air superiority would be quite fine as it would mean simplified training and less wear and tear.

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## mingle

cloud4000 said:


> If India rejects F-21 offer than it should offer it to Pakistan, including moving the current F-16 production line there.


You think LM gonna wait another 10 yrs???



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well it would *make sense* as Pakistan is one of oldest operators of F16
> I would consider this as a Major strategic move
> 
> Service Center for F16 , in Middle East , Lockhead martin still can score a homerun with Pakistan we already have ability to service F16's many components
> 
> 
> It would be correct usage of Pakistan's Engineering Potential and may even revive the F16 plane's fortunes
> 
> 
> Egypt
> Iraq
> Jordan
> UAE
> Morocco
> Turkey (Likely Collaborative work)
> 
> All fly the F16 craft and a service center in Pakistan makes sense


You got a great point. I agress made in Pak would be nice and economical too

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## Code_Geass

I dont know if we can use them for deep strike why didn't we use them in package on 27 feb??


Armchair said:


> Is that another leak? [emoji14]
> 
> I personally feel PAF should just use the F-16s mainly for air superiority or deep strike and nothing else. Actually, just for air superiority would be quite fine as it would mean simplified training and less wear and tear.

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## Basel

Keysersoze said:


> I am going to take a sip of the cool aid and ask what weapons are linked with this deal. AMRAAM C7 Or D and aim 9x?



C7 is good but 9X will add more teeth to F-16s as it will allow full use JHMCS and much better WVR fighting capacity.


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## Khafee

Can someone provide a breakdown of PAF's existing F16 Fleet. So I can clarify some points.

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Can someone provide a breakdown of PAF's existing F16 Fleet. So I can clarify some points.



F-16A Block 15 MLU (28)
F-16B Block 15 MLU (12)
F-16A Block 15 ADF (9)
F-16B Block 15 ADF (4)
F-16C Block 52+ (12)
F-16D Block 52+ (10)

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## aliyusuf

Khafee said:


> Can someone provide a breakdown of PAF's existing F16 Fleet. So I can clarify some points.


F-16 Blk-52C ..............................12
F-16 Blk-52D (Dual Seat) ...............6
F-16 Blk-15AM MLU .....................24 Out of the original 40 and EDA 14
F-16 Blk-15BM MLU (Dual Seat) ....21 acquired later, we lost 9 to attrition
F-16 Blk-15A ADF .........................9 Ex-Jordanian
F-16 Blk-15B ADF (Dual Seat) ........4 Ex-Jordanian
Total 76 Planes in all.

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## The Eagle

Armchair said:


> F-16A Block 15 MLU (28)
> F-16B Block 15 MLU (12)
> F-16A Block 15 ADF (9)
> F-16B Block 15 ADF (4)
> F-16C Block 52+ (12)
> F-16D Block 52+ (10)



I think it stands as 

F-16 A : (28-8) + 5 + 12 = 37 
F-16 B : (12-1) + 9 + 1 = 21
F-16 C: 12
F-16 D : 6

however, a random one posted months ago that

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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> I think it stands as
> 
> F-16 A : (28-8) + 5 + 12 = 37
> F-16 B : (12-1) + 9 + 1 = 21
> F-16 C: 12
> F-16 D : 6
> 
> however, a random one posted months ago that
> View attachment 571807


So IA it should stand at

76 + 24 + 20(approx) = 120 Sounds about right

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## aliyusuf

Khafee said:


> So IA it shoudl stand at
> 
> 76 + 24 + *20(approx) *= 120 Sounds about right


So the additional 20, you are mentioning here, are brand new Block-70/72 or used machines to be upgraded?

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## Code_Geass

As per wiki we have 85 f 16 (66 a/b 19 c/d)

O think someone needs to fix thw list on wiki other fighters nunber mentioned there seems to be wrong


aliyusuf said:


> F-16 Blk-52C ..............................12
> F-16 Blk-52D (Dual Seat) ...............6
> F-16 Blk-15AM MLU .....................24 Out of the original 40 and EDA 14
> F-16 Blk-15BM MLU (Dual Seat) ....21 acquired later, we lost 9 to attrition
> F-16 Blk-15A ADF .........................9 Ex-Jordanian
> F-16 Blk-15B ADF (Dual Seat) ........4 Ex-Jordanian
> Total 76 Planes in all.


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## Khafee

aliyusuf said:


> So the additional 20, you are mentioning here, are brand new Block-70/72 or used machines to be upgraded?


All in good time.

Wait for the haters to spontaneously combust.

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## Beethoven

Khafee said:


> So IA it should stand at
> 
> 76 + 24 + 20(approx) = 120 Sounds about right


Where did the additional 20 come from?????? I thought we were getting 24 new jets thats it....

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> 76 + 24 + 20(approx) = 120 Sounds about right



May be I lost you. 76 we have and 24 are expected and you mean further 20? That means, we are looking at 34 more/new or ex-Birds with Block-70 upgrade including 18 from previous contract.

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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> May be I lost you. 76 we have and 24 are expected and you mean further 20? That means, we are looking at 34 more/new or ex-Birds with Block-70 upgrade including 18 from previous contract.


76 = Current Fleet

24+20 = 44 

24 New Blk72 + 20 used (approval 80% done) upgraded to Blk72 = 44 

76+ 44 = 120 
all with APG-83 upgraded to Blk72 IA

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## BringHarmony

You guys are counting your chickens too early fellas. There has not been a single peep about selling new planes or upgrading existing ones.

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## aliyusuf

Code_Geass said:


> As per wiki we have 85 f 16 (66 a/b 19 c/d)
> 
> O think someone needs to fix thw list on wiki other fighters nunber mentioned there seems to be wrong


Total history of F-16 inventory ...

B/W 1983 - 1987
28 Block-15A
12 Block-15B Dual Seat
40 out of which we lost 8 in attrition

B/W 2006 - 2009
2 Block-15A OCU EDA
12 Block-15B OCU EDA (2 perhaps came later in around 2014)
14 out of we lost 1 in attrition

B/W 2010 - 2015
12 Block-52C
6 Block-52D
18

So, we got 85 birds in all and lost 9 in attrition.

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## Khafee

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Incoming...hide haters... its is ICBM *#KhafeeLeaks2 ...*
> 
> Brother, keep them coming... we need a lot of fires to quench!
> *
> #EmergingPakistan* validated by *#KhafeeLeaks*


Sir, You are too kind.

May Allah bless you and your loved ones, with the best of health and wealth.

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> 76 = Current Fleet
> 
> 24+20 = 44
> 
> 24 New Blk72 + 20 used (approval 80% done) upgraded to Blk72 = 44
> 
> 76+ 44 = 120
> all with APG-83 upgraded to Blk72 IA



I am not suppose to tell you that as why I got the right impression in numbers above. Allow me to add that someone had the impression as US discontinued PAF Viper Riders training but there were boys in New Mexico last Ramzan.

@Windjammer

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## hussain0216

I wonder if I open a thread on Pakistan buying the S500 from Russia if I can get 79 pages out it?

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## Beethoven

Khafee said:


> 76 = Current Fleet
> 
> 24+20 = 44
> 
> 24 New Blk72 + 20 used (approval 80% done) upgraded to Blk72 = 44
> 
> 76+ 44 = 120
> all with APG-83 upgraded to Blk72 IA


Is the AIM 9X along with AIM 120D a part of the deal that is going to be signed?

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## Khafee

hussain0216 said:


> I wonder if I open a thread on Pakistan buying the S500 from Russia if I can get 79 pages out it?


Give it a shot

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## Code_Geass

You wou6 have to time it properly

Like people went crazy when it was announced that we might get su 35


hussain0216 said:


> I wonder if I open a thread on Pakistan buying the S500 from Russia if I can get 79 pages out it?


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## Khafee

Beethoven said:


> Is the AIM 9X along with AIM 120D a part of the deal that is going to be signed?


As a rule - always keep in mind, due to a nazi fascist state as your neighbor, Basic items first, goodies quietly later.

DRFM is a prime example.

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## Beethoven

Khafee said:


> As a rule - always keep in mind, due to a nazi fascist state as your neighbor, Basic items first, goodies quietly later.
> 
> DRFM is a prime example.


Didnt know we had DRFM in our inventory as well....Sir #Khafeeleaks is going to make indians shit their pants...

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Khafee said:


> 76 = Current Fleet
> 
> 24+20 = 44
> 
> 24 New Blk72 + 20 used (approval 80% done) upgraded to Blk72 = 44
> 
> 76+ 44 = 120
> all with APG-83 upgraded to Blk72 IA


Looks like the PAF has taken 02-26 way more too seriously than the other folks could have anticipated in their wildest imagination!!! Couple it with the Egyptian mirages, JF17 Blk3s, JF17Bs etc., and it’s almost like garnering around 200 additional birds!!! And, that too from what the PAF has already 02-27 level proficiency with!!! It’ll be like 300 AESA equipped birds flying around with a mindset of “there’s no tomorrow”!!! I have to thank Modi!!! And, his 2nd term has only started.....

Cry IAF cry....

Run IAF pilots run....

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## PurpleButcher

Khafee said:


> 76 = Current Fleet
> 
> 24+20 = 44
> 
> 24 New Blk72 + 20 used (approval 80% done) upgraded to Blk72 = 44
> 
> 76+ 44 = 120
> all with APG-83 upgraded to Blk72 IA


and my sleep plans go to the dustbin

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## Khafee

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Looks like the PAF has taken 02-26 way more too seriously than the other folks could have anticipated in their wildest imagination!!! Couple it with the Egyptian mirages, JF17 Blk3s, JF17Bs etc., and it’s almost like garnering around 200 additional birds!!! And, that too from what the PAF has already 02-27 level proficiency with!!! I have to thank Modi!!! And, his 2nd term has only started.....
> 
> Cry IAF cry....

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Khafee said:


>


_Helal_ beer is OK with me....

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## SIPRA

PurpleButcher said:


> and my sleep plans go to the dustbin



It appears, @Khafee will keep whole of PDF awake, for quite some days.

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## krash

Irfan Baloch said:


> all I can add is , if the conventional military strength and gap becomes too overwhelming then this fact alone negates the nuclear deterrence.



Absolutely. The predicament becomes even more evident when we realize that most of modern conflicts today are based around 4th Generation Warfare. Adversaries have successfully used non-state actors and/or irregulars to dismantle countries without ever overtly placing boots on the ground. Syria, Yemen and Libya fell like a deck of cards within a matter of months. We bore its brunt for the first time in 71. It's effective enough to reduce and, in cases, even negate overwhelming conventional military superiority; history will never forget what the rag tag Afghans did to the Soviets and are doing to the US, the two most powerful militaries ever known to man. Ironically, for all the times the Soviets and the Americans came close to exchanging nuclear blows, not once was it due to the conflict which actually brought about the Soviets' end.

We've been in the thick of it again for the past two decades. No one has forgotten how, not too long ago, our ill-wishers were writing us off as well. Pakistan stands tall and at the cusp of victory today only because of our conventional military might coupled with an intelligent military strategy. Without either we would have fallen. All of our nukes did not and could not have helped us an iota in our war against this new-gen enemy.

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## 8 pass charlie

Khafee said:


>


@Khafee Bhai aaj Kal Aapki posts aur comments kA shidat se intizaar rehta Hai.pata nae kab khush khabri aajaye.

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## Code_Geass

Fingers crossed for everything to go as pakistan wishes/plans
We are prone to last minute blunders


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## M.Kamran_Pak

JohnWick said:


> well I think mig-29 is also used by US Airforce?


US secretly bought few Mig-29 from former Eastern European countries who joined NATO/EU... And these mig-29s are used for DACT scenarios against F-16, F-15 etc.

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## mingle

Beethoven said:


> Is the AIM 9X along with AIM 120D a part of the deal that is going to be signed?


Pak will never buy any high end or big tickets items from Russia

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## Beethoven

mingle said:


> Pak will never buy any high end or big tickets items from Russia


Say What.??????????

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## TsAr

Khafee said:


> So IA it should stand at
> 
> 76 + 24 + 20(approx) = 120 Sounds about right


You will get a chummi from me if this comes out to me true

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## zulu

eeewww @Khafee that's open threat to you.BTW u gonna give funds detail in #khafeeleaks 3 or waiting someone else to do the honors ?


TsAr said:


> You will get a chummi from me if this comes out to me true

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## Khafee

zulu said:


> eeewww @Khafee that's open threat to you.BTW u gonna give funds detail in #khafeeleaks 3 or waiting someone else to do the honors ?


Waiting for more people to hate me....

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## Salza

My heart is saying yes to Khafee's claim but brain doesn't.

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## zulu

Or get the thread lock which they did to me when i showed the origins of that missile with matching serial number came from UAE 2 years ago for PAF.Only @Dawood Ibrahim figure it out what came in that plane .Haters gonna hate u some more 








Khafee said:


> Waiting for more people to hate me....

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## Khafee

zulu said:


> Or get the thread lock which they did to me when i showed the origins of that missile with matching serial number came from UAE 2 years ago for PAF.Only @Dawood Ibrahim figure it out what came in that plane .Haters gonna hate u some more
> 
> View attachment 571810

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## mingle

Beethoven said:


> Say What.??????????


No big ticket items from Russia

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## Flight of falcon

This is like 


zulu said:


> Or get the thread lock which they did to me when i showed the origins of that missile with matching serial number came from UAE 2 years ago for PAF.Only @Dawood Ibrahim figure it out what came in that plane .Haters gonna hate u some more
> 
> View attachment 571810


This is a giant metal condom Indians are holding to show the world what attrocitu was done to them by the Pakistanis

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## loanranger

Of the 9 billion owed to us 4 billion goes into buying only aircraft?

What if God forbid there is a huge false flag in AFGHANISTAN then what? It would be back to square one again. Really hope peace deal is sealed and we get what we are owed back in full!

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## Salza

Khafee said:


> Waiting for more people to hate me....



guys, please hate him more especially the think tanks

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## Irfan Baloch

Salza said:


> guys, please hate him more especially the think tanks


no body hates him.. he has been legitimately challenged to provide some source or proof. and understanding that its not possible then give a convincing argument for the time being
hate or panic has been from eastern side

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

loanranger said:


> What if God forbid there is a huge false flag in AFGHANISTAN then what? It would be back to square one again. Really hope peace deal is sealed and we get what we are owed back in full!


President Trump hates anything that starts with “False” or “Fake” - be it news, flags, ops or anything else.....

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## zulu

And that thread doing this job very well thanx for keeping it up more bombs will follow soon for our eastern neighbors"""From @Khafee With love"""


Irfan Baloch said:


> hate or panic has been from eastern side

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## Flight of falcon

I suggest new squadron to be named Khafee squadron ..

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## Path-Finder

Khafee said:


> 76 = Current Fleet
> 
> 24+20 = 44
> 
> 24 New Blk72 + 20 used (approval 80% done) upgraded to Blk72 = 44
> 
> 76+ 44 = 120
> all with APG-83 upgraded to Blk72 IA


Question; you know the claims by the vedic disinformation clowns about F16 getting shot down. Will this once again reinforce that no F16 was shot down? When the upgrade happens!

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## Khafee

Path-Finder said:


> Question; you know the claims by the vedic disinformation clowns about F16 getting shot down. Will this once again reinforce that no F16 was shot down? When the upgrade happens!


Good point!

Upgrade kits will be required for 76 + 20 = 96 a/c's

*IF* an a/c was shot down, upgrade kit will be for....?

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mingle said:


> No big ticket items from Russia


I am pretty sure the US offers supersede the Russian ones....

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## Flight of falcon

It’s old but interesting news. Pakistan was almost certain to acquire 18 new F16s last year but then the deal fell through over the finances. So it’s not like we are asking for something new .... all we are asking is to revive old deal. 

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...-jets-from-us-report/articleshow/51407397.cms

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## Maxpane

sir is it @Khafee leaks or same news?



Khafee said:


> 76 = Current Fleet
> 
> 24+20 = 44
> 
> 24 New Blk72 + 20 used (approval 80% done) upgraded to Blk72 = 44
> 
> 76+ 44 = 120
> all with APG-83 upgraded to Blk72 IA


sir ap k mun main ghee shakar

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> 76 = Current Fleet
> 
> 24+20 = 44
> 
> 24 New Blk72 + 20 used (approval 80% done) upgraded to Blk72 = 44
> 
> 76+ 44 = 120
> all with APG-83 upgraded to Blk72 IA



Amazing! Between they are talking about you at various places all over the internet.

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## The Eagle

loanranger said:


> Of the 9 billion owed to us 4 billion goes into buying only aircraft?
> 
> What if God forbid there is a huge false flag in AFGHANISTAN then what? It would be back to square one again. Really hope peace deal is sealed and we get what we are owed back in full!



The deal or CSF is already frozen so nothing more worst could happen. However, if the status remains as frozen, PAF had the option to go somewhere else in the West and that option is still open/active. Where the money would have come from? was already resolved. That was one of the reasons, if this Viper deal/upgrade package comes to materialize; the US had to avail opportunity in the name of Afghanistan peace talks. 

All in all, we are too availing opportunity and let's hope for the best.

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## denel

Interesting, looks like India is upset with LM.

https://theprint.in/opinion/f-16-ne...-lockheed-martin-messed-it-up-so-much/269699/

this may be playing into narrative LM may be pushing to get sales elsewhere.

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## guest9999

denel said:


> Interesting, looks like India is upset with LM.
> 
> https://theprint.in/opinion/f-16-ne...-lockheed-martin-messed-it-up-so-much/269699/
> 
> this may be playing into narrative LM may be pushing to get sales elsewhere.


Messed up or not, it's annoying seeing them think they own everything or are above everyone. I'm glad Trump took aim at India with tariffs. He's putting them back in their place.

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## The Eagle

denel said:


> Interesting, looks like India is upset with LM.
> 
> https://theprint.in/opinion/f-16-ne...-lockheed-martin-messed-it-up-so-much/269699/
> 
> this may be playing into narrative LM may be pushing to get sales elsewhere.



The strategic value games are like double edged swords so it could have happened by anytime. Even, whatever narrative India builds at the moment; can be counter productive or we might see nothing to benefit from. However, Pakistan favour argument is strong due to the Afghanistan Peace Talks deal while on other hand, if India has to stop US in this regard, will have to offer something bigger than that. Trump has already waved the CAATSA card for india in-case S-400 deal goes through. 

We do have requirement but so have the choice but India is in tight spot in this equation of Vipers for PAF & Afghanistan. May be the desperately worded articles are into preparation for S-400 to come in.

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## denel

The Eagle said:


> The strategic value games are like double edged swords so it could have happened by anytime. Even, whatever narrative India builds at the moment; can be counter productive or we might see nothing to benefit from. However, Pakistan favour argument is strong due to the Afghanistan Peace Talks deal while on other hand, if India has to stop US in this regard, will have to offer something bigger than that. Trump has already waved the CAATSA card for india in-case S-400 deal goes through.
> 
> We do have requirement but so have the choice but India is in tight spot in this equation of Vipers for PAF & Afghanistan. May be the desperately worded articles are into preparation for S-400 to come in.


Agreed, the end game is key - with all respect, peace is a must in Afghanistan; they have suffered long enough.

My friend just returned from Afghanistan, he has friends in US allied forces; there are reports they are dropping supplies periodically to the Taliban. I was skeptical but given the winds of change that are blowing; it will not be a surprise.

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> Good point!
> 
> Upgrade kits will be required for 76 + 20 = 96 a/c's
> 
> *IF* an a/c was shot down, upgrade kit will be for....?



The number of 120 Vipers is so magical and holds a whole different state of strategic game in itself. If, I say again if this come to the reality, the same is going to be the one giant leap of PAF transition which is being awaited since years with Vipers & JF-17 armed to teeth with AESA. Almost 300 advanced/AESA/4.5 + Gen birds covering Pakistan Airspace...a heavenly match of geography and modernized fleet size. We never had the opportunity like the moment and hopefully, the things will go ahead as planned and wished. 

May ALLAH us with everything. Ameen.



denel said:


> Agreed, the end game is key - with all respect, peace is a must in Afghanistan; they have suffered long enough.
> 
> My friend just returned from Afghanistan, he has friends in US allied forces; there are reports they are dropping supplies periodically to the Taliban. I was skeptical but given the winds of change that are blowing; it will not be a surprise.



For the time being, we can assume that Afghanistan Peace deal is done & final. Yes, they have suffered a long war and not just for Afghanistan but peace is a must for the whole region. Pakistan wouldn't jump for the peace talks management if US ambition was to play otherwise. We can expect lot of sabotage attempts & in-fact hostiles wouldn't let this go that easily though, we have been through a lot of rough times and have gained enough experience/lessons as well. Afghanistan has been used by the same hostile elements against Pakistan so any sabotage attempt would be far less harming as compare to anti-Pakistan terrorists breeding ground in neighborhood. Furthermore, the deal is must for Trump legacy & US itself so the risk of sabotage exists very less. Russia & China wouldn't wish any unrest in Afghanistan & US want a peaceful exit and Pakistan been saying the same thing since years hence, major powers are on board in this. 

What LM or US in whole offers in lieu of this Peace Talks efforts; is already seen by India or might realize later but the way I see & observe; any strategic offer wouldn't imbalance the region. India use to apply the tactics of hue & cry to seek attention or to weaken Pakistan from inside for strategical gains but it is noted that India is on Defence Shopping like a madman. Rafale are coming and that is the major imbalance in the region if PAF doesn't have much to defend so argument for the Vipers is strong from this point of view as well. As I said, it is a God sent opportunity and one will never miss it.

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## denel

The Eagle said:


> The number of 120 Vipers is so magical and holds a whole different state of strategic game in itself. If, I say again if this come to the reality, the same is going to be the one giant leap of PAF transition which is being awaited since years with Vipers & JF-17 armed to teeth with AESA. Almost 300 advanced/AESA/4.5 + Gen birds covering Pakistan Airspace...a heavenly match of geography and modernized fleet size. We never had the opportunity like the moment and hopefully, the things will go ahead as planned and wished.
> 
> May ALLAH us with everything. Ameen.
> 
> 
> 
> For the time being, we can assume that Afghanistan Peace deal is done & final. Yes, they have suffered a long war and not just for Afghanistan but peace is a must for the whole region. Pakistan wouldn't jump for the peace talks management if US ambition was to play otherwise. We can expect lot of sabotage attempts & in-fact hostiles wouldn't let this go that easily though, we have been through a lot of rough times and have gained enough experience/lessons as well. Afghanistan has been used by the same hostile elements against Pakistan so any sabotage attempt would be far less harming as compare to anti-Pakistan terrorists breeding ground in neighborhood. Furthermore, the deal is must for Trump legacy & US itself so the risk of sabotage exists very less. Russia & China wouldn't wish any unrest in Afghanistan & US want a peaceful exit and Pakistan been saying the same thing since years hence, major powers are on board in this.
> 
> What LM or US in whole offers in lieu of this Peace Talks efforts; is already seen by India or might realize later but the way I see & observe; any strategic offer wouldn't imbalance the region. India use to apply the tactics of hue & cry to seek attention or to weaken Pakistan from inside for strategical gains but it is noted that India is on Defence Shopping like a madman. Rafale are coming and that is the major imbalance in the region if PAF doesn't have much to defend so argument for the Vipers is strong from this point of view as well. As I said, it is a God sent opportunity and one will never miss it.


Yes, Indians have the same habit of crying and lamenting as though sky is falling. I am smiling as Trevor Noah' Bollywood number comes to mind. Lets hope your leadership can capitalise on an new opportunity if it becomes available to its maximum.

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## Aamir Hussain

I am a bit amused by the response from those who were nay Sayers to buying more F-16' on Khafees revelations. I guess after Balakot things became more clear to a lot of us.

I have been saying all along that the most potent weapon in PAF arsenal is the upgraded F-16 armed with AMARAAM. Coupled with dedicated EW a/c and tactics, this combo has turned out to be a lethal mix for the enemy.

JF-17 were designed from the beginning to replace the F-7 and its derivatives with improvements added on as they became available. It is a potent platform today, and will soon be more potent with the advent of Block III. 

However, as off today, F-16 remains the trump card ("Trump" card hmmmm) with its long range engagement capability. What we need now is to have longer range AESA radar equipped birds with later variant AMARAAM's.

On the side we need to keep on enhancing our EW capability and hone in our skills to use is even more effectively against the enemy.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Agreed, the end game is key - with all respect, peace is a must in Afghanistan; they have suffered long enough.
> 
> My friend just returned from Afghanistan, he has friends in US allied forces; there are reports they are dropping supplies periodically to the Taliban. I was skeptical but given the winds of change that are blowing; it will not be a surprise.



Denel,

I am going to tell you an interesting story---you might have heard it---.

During the middle years of afghan war---pak military and US had a dispute and pakistan put sanction on supply movement from port of karachi to the pak / afg border---. No supply trucks were going thru and US military had to airlift rations & supply---. It lasted for awhile.

Pak military found out that the taliban attacks on the US military had decreased during that period---.

On further digging they found out---that from the border of Chamman in pak to the military base in Kandhar AFG---the US military was paying for safe passage of supply trucks to the taliban during normal times---.

As the taliban leadership did not get paid during this sanctions period---they did not have money to pay the wages to their fighters---so the reason for reduced attacks---.

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## araz

The Eagle said:


> The number of 120 Vipers is so magical and holds a whole different state of strategic game in itself. If, I say again if this come to the reality, the same is going to be the one giant leap of PAF transition which is being awaited since years with Vipers & JF-17 armed to teeth with AESA. Almost 300 advanced/AESA/4.5 + Gen birds covering Pakistan Airspace...a heavenly match of geography and modernized fleet size. We never had the opportunity like the moment and hopefully, the things will go ahead as planned and wished.
> 
> May ALLAH us with everything. Ameen.
> 
> 
> 
> For the time being, we can assume that Afghanistan Peace deal is done & final. Yes, they have suffered a long war and not just for Afghanistan but peace is a must for the whole region. Pakistan wouldn't jump for the peace talks management if US ambition was to play otherwise. We can expect lot of sabotage attempts & in-fact hostiles wouldn't let this go that easily though, we have been through a lot of rough times and have gained enough experience/lessons as well. Afghanistan has been used by the same hostile elements against Pakistan so any sabotage attempt would be far less harming as compare to anti-Pakistan terrorists breeding ground in neighborhood. Furthermore, the deal is must for Trump legacy & US itself so the risk of sabotage exists very less. Russia & China wouldn't wish any unrest in Afghanistan & US want a peaceful exit and Pakistan been saying the same thing since years hence, major powers are on board in this.
> 
> What LM or US in whole offers in lieu of this Peace Talks efforts; is already seen by India or might realize later but the way I see & observe; any strategic offer wouldn't imbalance the region. India use to apply the tactics of hue & cry to seek attention or to weaken Pakistan from inside for strategical gains but it is noted that India is on Defence Shopping like a madman. Rafale are coming and that is the major imbalance in the region if PAF doesn't have much to defend so argument for the Vipers is strong from this point of view as well. As I said, it is a God sent opportunity and one will never miss it.


I hate to throw a spanner in the works. I think we have no reason to disbelieve @Khafee, however the news is a single man's account and the finances and other nitty gritties will need to be sorted out. The former are a huge challange to us at this point.
I dont think we will have upgrade of radar and other equipment fleet wide as the cost will shoot through the roof. I still think a better approach might be to get some new 16s and if possible older block 32/42s and upgrade those as well as our newer 52s to V standard. The radars from 52s could go down to the ADF fighters. If structural upgrade is available for A&Bs it should be strongly considered although when this occurs needs to be considered. For Example if we have 2000 hours on a plane will a structural upgrade allow us to extend it to 6000 hrs or only 4000hrs. So do we waste money by asking for structural upgrade earlier?
It maybe a more prudent approach. We do not want fleet wide upgarde barring structural one as most of our fleet of A&Bs is getting upto 40 years old. However the OCUs have a lot of aur frame life left on them. 
A

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## Falcon26

Mods please lock this thread till we see any corroborating evidence.

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## Trango Towers

Will the deal include 


No blocking of spares


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## Aamir Hussain

Trango Towers said:


> Will the deal include
> 
> 
> No blocking of spares


Nope! What we must learn as a nation is to play both sides of the game. We are not China nor are we India. We need to learn our position in the committee of nations and know where we stand. Essentially do a SWOT analysis...and take it from there.

What we aspire to be, what we are and what we can achieve, all have Deltas in between....Learning to live with biggest bully and the new kid on the block is an art that needs to be quickly learned.

Supply of essentials armaments and hardware from USA in the near future will basically depend upon two major points, our usefulness to US policy initiatives/goals in this region and our finances. Both points are interlinked.

If they require something from us in the region, then we have the choice to either deliver, or not deliver. In the latter case, we need to navigate carefully and use diplomacy and refrain from "Jazbaati" Rhetoric. Essentially don't make it into a zero sum game. As both delivery and non delivery on US objectives have consequences for us.

So tactful diplomacy, do the bare minimum, chose sides carefully and in line with our national and strategic interest is the need of the hour. Brotherly relations should not dictate our stance but our continued existence as a nation should be our priority.

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## HRK

The Eagle said:


> For the time being, we can assume that Afghanistan Peace deal is done & final.


only two main things are left one is
- Official withdrawal time table of US forces from Afghanistan which as per reports will be agreed in next meeting in Doha this month

- Other is the _new all inclusive political setup_ for Afghanistan to which Taliban in principle has agreed but the modalities in this regards are still not agreed (or discussed),_ therefore visit of Taliban delegation to Pakistan after this Eid is most important in relation to this development_

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## Path-Finder

denel said:


> Interesting, looks like India is upset with LM.
> 
> https://theprint.in/opinion/f-16-ne...-lockheed-martin-messed-it-up-so-much/269699/
> 
> this may be playing into narrative LM may be pushing to get sales elsewhere.


I started reading and realised it nothing more than the usual india whinging and blame diplomacy. lockheed messed up fits perfectly into known indian psyche.

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## Khafee

araz said:


> I hate to throw a spanner in the works. I think we have no reason to disbelieve @Khafee, however the news is a single man's account and* the finances and other nitty gritties will need to be sorted out*. The former are a huge challange to us at this point.
> I dont think we will have upgrade of radar and other equipment fleet wide as the cost will shoot through the roof. I still think a better approach might be to get some new 16s and if possible older block 32/42s and upgrade those as well as our newer 52s to V standard. The radars from 52s could go down to the ADF fighters. If structural upgrade is available for A&Bs it should be strongly considered although when this occurs needs to be considered. For Example if we have 2000 hours on a plane will a structural upgrade allow us to extend it to 6000 hrs or only 4000hrs. So do we waste money by asking for structural upgrade earlier?
> It maybe a more prudent approach. We do not want fleet wide upgarde barring structural one as most of our fleet of A&Bs is getting upto 40 years old. However the OCUs have a lot of aur frame life left on them.
> A



*Finances *- Sorted out. One whose brothers stand with him, is not an orphan. 
#Only India is Isolated

*Nitty Gritty *- Kindly elaborate. 

SLEP can do wonders btw.

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## Aamir Hussain

Khafee said:


> *Finances *- Sorted out. One whose brothers stand with him, is not an orphan.
> #Only India is Isolated
> 
> *Nitty Gritty *- Kindly elaborate.
> 
> SLEP can do wonders btw.


Can you elaborate on the "Brothers" and who are they?


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## Maxpane

@Khafee sir is there any plan for the production plant of f 16?


----------



## Stealth

Get f16s with Air refuelers and AWACS would be a great enhancement


----------



## The Eagle

araz said:


> I hate to throw a spanner in the works.



Sometimes, its want of time Sir. 



araz said:


> I think we have no reason to disbelieve @Khafee, however the news is a single man's account and the finances and other nitty gritties will need to be sorted out. The former are a huge challange to us at this point.
> I dont think we will have upgrade of radar and other equipment fleet wide as the cost will shoot through the roof. I still think a better approach might be to get some new 16s and if possible older block 32/42s and upgrade those as well as our newer 52s to V standard. The radars from 52s could go down to the ADF fighters. If structural upgrade is available for A&Bs it should be strongly considered although when this occurs needs to be considered. For Example if we have 2000 hours on a plane will a structural upgrade allow us to extend it to 6000 hrs or only 4000hrs. So do we waste money by asking for structural upgrade earlier?
> It maybe a more prudent approach. We do not want fleet wide upgarde barring structural one as most of our fleet of A&Bs is getting upto 40 years old. However the OCUs have a lot of aur frame life left on them.



Khafee made a case based upon circumstances, tid bits from around, progress & regional situation that deserved to be discussed for productivity, ideas and possible outcome.... and almost all of us agreed to give it a run.

The whole upgrade package wouldn't be done on the same time but will take a while. As you highlighted that let's utilize the remaining hours as well before going for upgrade to extend life; I am sure that we are looking at a setup taking months or an year for completion and during these times, existing fleet will fulfill responsibilities as designed. US$ 6 billion is initial suggested guesstimate to begin the work. I can be wrong on this account of "look like a leak" but I am afraid, can't go further. 

MLU, SLEP & Viper upgrade; is the chatter & seems like that is where we are playing cards in timely manners in view of resources being poured in as well as the gap between 4 to 6 birds at a time.

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## The Eagle

HRK said:


> only two main things are left one is
> - Official withdrawal time table of US forces from Afghanistan which as per reports will be agreed in next meeting in Doha this month
> 
> - Other is the _new all inclusive political setup_ for Afghanistan to which Taliban in principle has agreed but the modalities in this regards are still not agreed (or discussed),_ therefore visit of Taliban delegation to Pakistan after this Eid is most important in relation to this development_



Agreed Sir. Khalilzad is in Pakistan and most probably will be telling the time frame as well as any agreement or disagreement in regard to demands from Taliban side as they are on the way after Eid (as expected).

Ghani been requesting a place in new political setup but there is Gulbadin to take part and the sold setup will have to leave. Ghani delayed elections for too long but lost everything in process. He was here previously and sought a lot of favours but I see that Pakistan made it clear as there will be no moles in Afghanistan. Seemingly, US acknowledges that how India utilizes Afghanistan land against Pakistan.

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## Keysersoze

Stealth said:


> Get f16s with Air refuelers and AWACS would be a great enhancement


The PAF already has refuelers and 10 AWACS. The F16's will likely get CFTs which add 42% extra fuel with a small drag penalty. Easier than keeping a tanker nearby in hostile sky.

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## alphapak

Pak should try to get the production line of F16's in Pakistan.


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## The Eagle

Lockheed Martin Corp., doing business as Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, Fort Worth, Texas, has been awarded a _$799,955,939 firm-fixed-price incentive contract for F-16 aircraft production_.

This contract provides for the production and support of 14 Slovak Republic F-16 block 70 aircraft. Work will be performed at Greenville, South Carolina, and is _expected to be completed by Jan. 31, 2024_. This contract award involves _100% foreign military sales_ to the Slovak Republic.


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## PurpleButcher

The Eagle said:


> Lockheed Martin Corp., doing business as Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, Fort Worth, Texas, has been awarded a _$799,955,939 firm-fixed-price incentive contract for F-16 aircraft production_.
> 
> This contract provides for the production and support of 14 Slovak Republic F-16 block 70 aircraft. Work will be performed at Greenville, South Carolina, and is _expected to be completed by Jan. 31, 2024_. This contract award involves _100% foreign military sales_ to the Slovak Republic.



800 million/14= 57.4 million per aircraft .

so for 24 PAF Blk 70/72 aircrafts= 1.37 billion USD.

Am i missing something because shouldn't this be more expensive?


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## zulu

Waiting for Taliban to visit Islamabad there Ghani future gonna decided.Also check this article thanx to @Flight of falcon good find an year old article meant that things (incl finance) was on card for long time on PAF list
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...m-us-report/articleshow/51407397.cms?from=mdr


The Eagle said:


> Agreed Sir. Khalilzad is in Pakistan and most probably will be telling the time frame as well as any agreement or disagreement in regard to demands from Taliban side as they are on the way after Eid (as expected).
> 
> Ghani been requesting a place in new political setup but there is Gulbadin to take part and the sold setup will have to leave. Ghani delayed elections for too long but lost everything in process. He was here previously and sought a lot of favours but I see that Pakistan made it clear as there will be no moles in Afghanistan. Seemingly, US acknowledges that how India utilizes Afghanistan land against Pakistan.

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## Quwa

PurpleButcher said:


> 800 million/14= 57.4 million per aircraft .
> 
> so for 24 PAF Blk 70/72 aircrafts= 1.37 billion USD.
> 
> Am i missing something because shouldn't this be more expensive?


The DSCA pricing will be around $150-190 m per aircraft, but that includes everything -- the aircraft, training, spare parts, infrastructure, etc. It's the maximum possible you'll spend on the program, and that too over 5-10 years. 

The price you're quoting is the amount LM would get, and that's the amount Pakistan needs to have on hand (in cash, loan, or aid) in order to take delivery of the planes. The other 50% of the total contract would come through the PAF's annual ops/support budget; generally, if the F-16s replace older jets, then the money going into the older jets would now go to the F-16s.

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## The Eagle

PurpleButcher said:


> 800 million/14= 57.4 million per aircraft .
> 
> so for 24 PAF Blk 70/72 aircrafts= 1.37 billion USD.
> 
> Am i missing something because shouldn't this be more expensive?



The price quotes as fixed price incentive = LM money.
Yes, doesn't fit the price = calculation for Block-72. That may be the upgrade cost.

For example Morocco sale was approved with two separate contracts

1) for V upgrade to existing fleet of 23 F-16 C/D Block 52+ and
2) 25 F-16s Block-72 birds. Both contracts included the armaments/weapons etc.

Morocco V upgrade for 23 F-16 C/D Block 52+ with service/weapon = 985 $Million (43 million max per bird)
Morocco 25 new Block-72 with Weapons & support/service = 3.8 Billion $ (152 Million $ per bird)
Both offers included weapons & support/services.

So we can guess.

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## MIRauf

Khafee said:


> *Finances *- Sorted out. One whose brothers stand with him, is not an orphan..



Pak and PAF's performance on Feb 27 reignited the Brotherly Love ? I take it that Certain Crown Prince sees what a well armed and well trained PAF could do.

Now if US could throw in large number of F-404 for certain aircraft, imagine that...

I don't think that LM will transfer production line unless we are talking about 100+, which should be the case for joint Common platform between ( KSA, UAE, Pak and other GCC. ) If that could happen, hopefully Egypt is not allowed to derail it like F1 project.

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## BATMAN

Ya akhi, may God bless you and may your words be mubarik for Pakistan.

Long live Pakistan, long live Pak Arab friendship.

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## Armchair

BTW @Windjammer met the PAF chief, had some amazing revelations to make, which are supposedly going to be released soon by the PAF, started a thread, and then went cold. Not a peep. Now someone is claiming he was arrested by an intelligence agency, but that is just a rumor on pdf.

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## GreyHat

I might be getting ahead of myself but shouldn't we have pitched the purchasing of F-35 Lightning II as well.
F-16V's are great but we would more or less be at par with Rafale coming in region while PAF needs technological/quality edge on their side. Does anybody know if we pitched it or not because looking at our F-16 record, we could have gone with it.Along with V upgradation of existing fleet

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## Armchair

MIRauf said:


> Pak and PAF's performance on Feb 27 reignited the Brotherly Love ? I take it that Certain Crown Prince sees what a well armed and well trained PAF could do.
> 
> Now if US could throw in large number of F-404 for certain aircraft, imagine that...
> 
> I don't think that LM will transfer production line unless we are talking about 100+, which should be the case for joint Common platform between ( KSA, UAE, Pak and other GCC. ) If that could happen, hopefully Egypt is not allowed to derail it like F1 project.



I think the correct way to go about this would be to offer Saudi a JF-17 production line. Why?

1. It plays to a strong Saudi undercurrent to produce things (specially weapons) at home. Saudis don't truly understand technology, defence and the workings of a military industrial complex. They just know how to throw money and "get a factory". South Africans have played nicely to this tune and so has China. It's Pak's turn now, if we are smart enough. 

2. A Saudi production line that would produce 100 JFT for Saudi, UAE, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Sudan, Oman and others would essentially be run by Pak engineers and expertise. This will benefit our industry in the long-term as we would have a ready-made reserve of technical expertise. 

3. If Saudi makes them, no one can stop or play politics with them. 

Other than the Gulf, the other market to look at is Turkey and Malaysia. Malaysia has a seriously bad air force equipment situation. Pak should and could step in to fix their air force. Pak is now the de facto expert on air defence, and can, with a high level delegation like we sent to the US, easily make a big deal with Mahatir. But the time is now, if Mahathir dies, it will be too late. 

Turkey needs an F-35 replacement. This replacement was ideally going to be a high tech, heavy weight ground pounder. Something like an MKI would have fit the bill but if they don't go Russian, Pak could make a case for a specialized JFT -Block 4. Remember, this is for replacement of the F-4 Phantoms, something JFTs are fully capable of doing. 

If we sell it to them as a local Turkish product with a host of Turkish equipment, and one that gives them foreign policy independence, we again have a good chance of selling a good number. Maybe 50-100 even. 

If we make a concerted effort with high level negotiations like we did with the Americans, we can pull off a 200-300 plane JFT sale.

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## Khafee

Maxpane said:


> @Khafee sir is there any plan for the production plant of f 16?


No.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> No.


oh ok. thank you sir

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## Khafee

Stealth said:


> Get f16s with Air refuelers and AWACS would be a great enhancement


Erieye ER is already there, and in good numbers. It is one of THE best out there.

IFR - What is missing is a boom. The other way around this obstacle, is CFT's equipped with a probe.



The Eagle said:


> *Khafee made a case based upon circumstances, tid bits from around, progress & regional situation that deserved to be discussed for productivity, ideas and possible outcome.*...


I didn't know you get divine revelations.

Khafee did not make any case. He informed the forum what he found out through official channels.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

How does it feel Khafee to have weight of 70 pages on your shoulder , we are awaiting arrival of the Block 70/72 diligently

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## Khafee

MIRauf said:


> Pak and PAF's performance on Feb 27 reignited the Brotherly Love ?



Nothing of that sort.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> How does it feel Khafee to have weight of 70 pages on your shoulder , we are awaiting arrival of the Block 70/72 diligently


Before I answer, ask your eastern neighbors: why are they going nuts?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

12 hain 24 hain , ye more India ko hazam nahi hoga

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## Keysersoze

Khafee said:


> Erieye ER is already there, and in good numbers. It is one of THE best out there.
> 
> IFR - What is missing is a boom. The other way around this obstacle, is CFT's equipped with a probe.
> 
> 
> I didn't know you get divine revelations.
> 
> Khafee did not make any case. He informed the forum what he found out through official channels.


ER ? When did the PAF get the ER?


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## Khafee

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 12 hain 24 hain , ye more India ko hazam nahi hoga


24 new
20 (approx) used

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## Dil Pakistan

Khafee said:


> Erieye *ER *is already there, and in good numbers. It is one of THE best out there.
> 
> IFR - What is missing is a boom. The other way around this obstacle, is CFT's equipped with a probe.
> 
> 
> I didn't know you get divine revelations.
> 
> Khafee did not make any case. He informed the forum what he found out through official channels.



What does *ER *stand for?


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## Keysersoze

Dil Pakistan said:


> What does *ER *stand for?


Extended range. 650km allegedly.

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## Khafee

Dil Pakistan said:


> What does *ER *stand for?


Enemy Repellent

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## Keysersoze

Cancel my last question.....just found it.


Keysersoze said:


> ER ? When did the PAF get the ER?

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## chauvunist

Khafee said:


> Nothing of that sort.
> 
> 
> Before I answer, ask your eastern neighbors: why are they going nuts?



Khafee bhai, I guess India is in panicked mood after getting the news from this forum of Pak getting new F 16 ..They must be thinking better do something than later.. 
You have made them mobilized a whole alot military

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## Khafee

chauvunist said:


> Khafee bhai, I guess India is in panicked mood after getting the news from this forum of Pak getting new F 16 ..They must be thinking better do something than later..
> You have made them mobilized a whole alot military



Dhoti is on 



We have a lot of finance guys on this forum, wondering if someone can put a realistic $ figure, to the dhotis panic.

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## Muhammad Omar

Khafee said:


> 24 new
> 20 (approx) used

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## Khafee

Muhammad Omar said:


>


IA

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## mhacsan

Khafee said:


> IA


Khafee Bhai you have the raised the bar way too much for yourself. Now Your future posts have to be very calculated, smart, and 100% correct.


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## Path-Finder

Khafee said:


> IFR - What is missing is a boom. The other way around this obstacle, is CFT's equipped with a probe.


I was going to ask this very question is PAF going for F21 style refuel probe otherwise it will be headache we don't need.

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## Muhammad Omar

Khafee said:


> IA


Insha'Allah

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Dhoti is on
> 
> 
> 
> We have a lot of finance guys on this forum, wondering if someone can put a realistic $ figure, to the dhotis panic.



To realistically counter the PAF, IAF will need minimum 120 Rafales, assorted equipment and weapons, EW aircraft, AWACS, training. My ballpark guess would be about 25-35 billion dollars of equipment will be needed by the IAF. That is based on an estimate of 150 million per Rafale with all accessories and weapons, which would be going too cheap reaching a ballpark of 25 billion. Taking a higher figure, you'd get to as high as a 35 billion dollar figure. 

The other path is for them to try to wing it with the MKI and R-27s. Which would leave them exposed.

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## Keysersoze

Khafee said:


> Dhoti is on
> 
> 
> 
> We have a lot of finance guys on this forum, wondering if someone can put a realistic $ figure, to the dhotis panic.


Roughly 7 billion for the new builds and upgrade kits based on the Morrocan purchase.

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## TheTallGuy

wow! 

@Khafee 
Please make sure to inform when the exchange take place

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## Tps43

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


No need for such nice comments for me

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mhacsan said:


> Khafee Bhai you have the raised the bar way too much for yourself. Now Your future posts have to be very calculated, smart, and 100% correct.


Being 100% correct is way beyond the mortals....

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## TsAr

Tps43 said:


> No need for such nice comments for me


I was wondering where you have been, nice to c u back.....

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## TheTallGuy

@Tps43 

sir jee, when you gonna cough up the actual tally!

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## Tps43

TsAr said:


> I was wondering where you have been, nice to c u back.....


There’s one idiot TT analyst who now I try to avoid at all cost so Got disheartened and took a break from pdf 
But thanks

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## maximuswarrior

India is caught between a rock and a hard place. The S-400 is going to haunt India for a long time to come.

Pakistan should make most of the opportunity.

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## Tps43

TheTallGuy said:


> @Tps43
> 
> sir jee, when you gonna cough up the actual tally!


Some other multiroler thing is also coming in paf and It would be a game changer
P.S : it’s not an aircraft

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## aliyusuf

This is how I see the cost for the whole deal could turn out to be ...





This is a huge cost even if spread out over several years.

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## Khafee

Tps43 said:


> Some other multiroler thing is also coming in paf and It would be a game changer
> P.S : it’s not an aircraft


Oh bhai, that is #Khafee Leaks3

Abhi nahi



aliyusuf said:


> This is how I see the cost for the whole deal could turn out to be ...
> View attachment 571999
> 
> 
> This is a huge cost even if spread out over several years.


Pls revise. New cost will be approx $75m X 24a/c

Btw - you are not paying, so enjoy

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## Tps43

Khafee said:


> Oh bhai, that is #Khafee Leaks3
> 
> Abhi nah


I am back so I reserve some rights as well

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## Khafee

Tps43 said:


> I am back so I reserve some rights as well


Go for it!

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## Path-Finder

Tps43 said:


> Some other multiroler thing is also coming in paf and It would be a game changer
> P.S : it’s not an aircraft


radar!

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## aliyusuf

Khafee said:


> Pls revise. New cost will be approx $75m


The USD 152 million price tag included munitions, spares and training ... according to DSCA.
Will the revised USD 75 tag include all that or that is to be decided later?



Khafee said:


> Btw - you are not paying, so enjoy


Good to know.

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## zulu

Pehly sirf ek @Khafee kaam thaa now u start too ? good to see u back ramzan sy aap chutti py hi chaly gaye thy  


Tps43 said:


> Some other multiroler thing is also coming in paf and It would be a game changer
> P.S : it’s not an aircraft

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## Khafee

aliyusuf said:


> The USD 152 million price tag included munitions, spares and training ... according to DSCA.
> Will the revised USD 75 tag include all that or that is to be decided later?
> 
> 
> Good to know.


Only a/c

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## Tps43

zulu said:


> Pehly sirf ek @Khafee kaam thaa now u start too ? good to see u back ramzan sy aap chutti py hi chaly gaye thy


Abhi aik dam taza dum hokar aya hon


Path-Finder said:


> radar!


Hmm


Khafee said:


> Go for it!

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## zulu

india ka roona gaana start ho chukaa hai .Pure banyaa danda dekhty hi raa***di roonaa chalu


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156996007860641793

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## Tps43

zulu said:


> india ka roona gaana start ho chukaa hai .Pure banyaa danda dekhty hi raa***di roonaa chalu
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156996007860641793


G mein lele yeh concern

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## Silicon0000

https://www.janes.com/article/90215/dod-awards-lockheed-martin-slovak-f-16v-fighter-contract


Just for an idea for calculations 






aliyusuf said:


> The USD 152 million price tag included munitions, spares and training ... according to DSCA.
> Will the revised USD 75 tag include all that or that is to be decided later?
> 
> 
> Good to know.

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## Khafee

Tps43 said:


>


You or me?

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## Tps43

Khafee said:


> You or me?


Abhi pardeh mein rehne dein iska hangover tou khatam ho jai

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## zulu

Oye yeh zulm na kar like u hide all details of ground attack of 27th feb till today oper sy yeh multi role ki puljharii aap ki hi lagai huwi new one.kitny gareeb iss thread ki waja sy raatoo ko jaag rahy hain kab #khafeeleaks 3 aa jaaye .divide some @Khafee still hide all financial arrangement details 


Tps43 said:


> Abhi pardeh mein rehne dein iska hangover tou khatam ho jai

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## Tps43

zulu said:


> Oye yeh zulm na kar like u hide all details of ground attack of 27th feb till today oper sy yeh multi role ki puljharii aap ki hi lagai huwi new one.kitny gareeb iss thread ki waja sy raatoo ko jaag rahy hain kab #khafeeleaks 3 aa jaaye .divide some @Khafee still hide all financial arrangement details


Yeh woh cheez hai jisko mein pit put ke thak giya tha akhr kaar aa hee gyi hamre pas

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## Sidacca

Tps43 said:


> Yeh woh cheez hai jisko mein pit put ke thak giya tha akhr kaar aa hee gyi hamre pas


Sir.... Bta de sona bhi h

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## Tps43

Sidacca said:


> Sir.... Bta de sona bhi h


Soo jao uska khawab dekh kar kiya hosakta hai

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## Sidacca

Tps43 said:


> Soo jao uska khawab dekh kar kiya hosakta hai


Acha mtlb baat abhi tak khwabo main h.... Pir kya faida khwab tou hm f35, s400 ki bhi dekhtay h

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## Tps43

Sidacca said:


> Acha mtlb baat abhi tak khwabo main h.... Pir kya faida khwab tou hm f35, s400 ki bhi dekhtay h


Yeh cheez haqeqat hai janab app taswaur kare isko hai kiya akhr kar



Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> YoungPak,
> 
> Please, don't tell we have bought a GiantDanda to beat sense into Ganga?
> 
> Because you said its not an aircraft... so it has to be a GiantDanda!


Naaa Gaintdanda nhi hai 
Lakin usse bhi important cheez hai

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## Ichigo

Khafee said:


> Oh bhai, that is #Khafee Leaks3
> 
> Abhi nahi
> 
> 
> Pls revise. New cost will be approx $75m X 24a/c
> 
> Btw - you are not paying, so enjoy


Where is Khafee leaks 2????


----------



## Sidacca

Tps43 said:


> Yeh cheez haqeqat hai janab app taswaur kare isko hai kiya akhr kar


Hmmm SAM......???

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## Khafee

Tps43 said:


> There’s one idiot TT analyst who now I try to avoid at all cost so Got disheartened and took a break from pdf
> But thanks


Dont give to much attention to Tin Cans, you do what you have to.

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## BATMAN

Tps43 said:


> Some other multiroler thing is also coming in paf and It would be a game changer
> P.S : it’s not an aircraft



Good to hear from you again... and thanks for the good news.

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## Tps43

Khafee said:


> Dont give to much attention to Tin Cans, you do what you have to.


Yeah that moron can go anywhere



BATMAN said:


> Good to hear from you again... and thanks for the good news.


Thanks alot bro



Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *A multiroler.
> 
> Not an aircraft.
> 
> Not a GiantDanda.
> 
> What is it?
> 
> Deep. Very Deep!*
> 
> You lads are just having a field day...* #KhafeeLeaks3* is going to be *Truly GameChanger* ... that is for sure... rest what can be bigger than a GiantDanda?


Something which is our weak link in arieal arena

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## Tps43

Sidacca said:


> Hmmm SAM......???


Hmmmm

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## Bratva

Tps43 said:


> Hmmmm



Low Level Radars ?

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## Tps43

Bratva said:


> Low Level Radars ?


Hmmmmmmmm

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Tps43 said:


> Hmmmm


Looks like a package deal!!! You get both the fighters and AD together!! Don’t keep the Turkish loophole....

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## Tps43

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Looks like a package deal!!! You get both the fighters and AD together!! Don’t keep the Turkish loophole....


Nice catch

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## zulu

Ab ek dafa aur hmmmm kiya gonna tax u through FBR aaj kal waisy bhi mooqay ki talash main rehty hain.Khafee ki suhbat main reh kar bigar gaye hu.aray bhai sab naa sahi kuch hint tu du told u many guys beechary checking that thread daily kuch public ki demand py esp that multi role 


Tps43 said:


> Hmmmmmmmm

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## M.AsfandYar

Tps43 said:


> Yeah that moron can go anywhere
> 
> 
> Thanks alot bro
> 
> 
> Something which is our weak link in arieal arena


SAMs...



Tps43 said:


> Nice catch


Now that you mention package, I think i know whats coming.....

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## Tps43

M.AsfandYar said:


> SAMs...
> 
> 
> Now that you mention package, I think i know whats coming.....


Not sams they are secondary

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## Sidacca

Tps43 said:


> Hmmmm


Kuch tou bol.... Butho Jani bna Hua h aj tou app Sir

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## Tps43

zulu said:


> Ab ek dafa aur hmmmm kiya gonna tax u through FBR aaj kal waisy bhi mooqay ki talash main rehty hain.Khafee ki suhbat main reh kar bigar gaye hu.aray bhai sab naa sahi kuch hint tu du told u many guys beechary checking that thread daily kuch public ki demand py esp that multi role


Hahahahahahahah



Retired Troll said:


> I have decided to ruin this thread


Mera masla hal karo phele

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## Sidacca

M.AsfandYar said:


> Now that you mention package, I think i know whats coming.


App he bta what is coming......?

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## Tps43

Sidacca said:


> Kuch tou bol.... Butho Jani bna Hua h aj tou app Sir


Sirf just few more days

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## Sidacca

Tps43 said:


> Sirf just few more days


I might not live for few more days with this curiosity

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## M.AsfandYar

Sidacca said:


> App he bta what is coming......?


jis particular cheez ki oper baat ho rhi hai us ka mujai nhi pta. 
kuch haftai sabr kar lo sir bohut achi habrain milai gi

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## Tps43

Retired Troll said:


> soraj to nikalne de.
> raat me ese kaam ghalat hojate hain andhere me
> 
> 
> 
> tabdeeli ka injection. lagwaoge?


Ghalat target ko ghouri hit kar deta hai kiya?

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## zulu

chal bhai khud bata dy kitny din?also keep an eye on IOk may be one last missing piece of 27th feb coming too soon but its just analyse 


Tps43 said:


> Sirf just few more days

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## Tps43

zulu said:


> chal bhai khud bata dy kitny din?also keep an eye on IOk may be one last missing piece of 27th feb coming too soon but its just analyse


45 days 



Sidacca said:


> I might not live for few more days with this curiosity


Haha

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## SQ8

Tps43 said:


> Sirf just few more days


I would not be so optimistic and focus instead on the Ah-1zs since they are coming.

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## Tps43

Oscar said:


> I would not be so optimistic and focus instead on the Ah-1zs since they are coming.


Those are coming as well I think by the next year pakistan would be taking deliveries

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## Sidacca

Oscar said:


> I would not be so optimistic and focus instead on the Ah-1zs since they are coming.


Sir he says a game changer ....


----------



## TsAr

Tps43 said:


> I am back so I reserve some rights as well


Open a new thread, lets see who's thread wins with most pages

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## TheDarkKnight

Tps43 said:


> Yeh woh cheez hai jisko mein pit put ke thak giya tha akhr kaar aa hee gyi hamre pas



Does it start with M?


----------



## Khafee

Ichigo said:


> Where is Khafee leaks 2????


Go through the thread.

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## TsAr

Tps43 said:


> There’s one idiot TT analyst who now I try to avoid at all cost so Got disheartened and took a break from pdf
> But thanks


Duniya mein ain ka ilawa ghum aur bi ha so keep rolling.....

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## aliyusuf

@Tps43 Kahin Quantum Radars tau nahi arahe? Just checking.

Game changer hi hoga.

Anti-Stealth ke liye Long wave radars bhi hosakte hein

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## Khafee

aliyusuf said:


> @Tps43 Kahin Quantum Radars tau nahi arahe? Just checking.
> 
> Game changer hi hoga.
> 
> Anti-Stealth ke liye Long wave radars bhi hosakte hein


Vera NG is already there.

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## aliyusuf

Khafee said:


> Vera NG is already there.


So then either it is Quantum Radars (I am fishing) or then it could be S-500 Prometheus (Khan Sahib is scheduled to meet Putin next month). We would then have very potent defence against ballistic missiles as well. I doubt that US would give us the THAAD System and I ruled out S-400 Triumph (as India will have it too and earlier than us).

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## BATMAN

Tps43 said:


> Yeah that moron can go anywhere
> 
> 
> Thanks alot bro
> 
> 
> Something which is our weak link in arieal arena



MQ9

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## airmarshal

May be in the end it will be nothing and we would laughing at ourselves wasting so much time and energy posting through 90 pages.

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## PWFI

@Khafee @Tps43 
Aap ko Allah puchei...musalmano ko tarsa reh ho!!

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## Keysersoze

alphapak said:


> Pak should try to get the production line of F16's in Pakistan.


For 24 planes?

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## aliyusuf

Aur mujhe bhi khiyali pulao khane pe majboor kia.
@Khafee @Tps43 Tarsaen nahi aur.

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## mingle

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> I am pretty sure the US offers supersede the Russian ones....


No that's one point plus
@Khafee plz end excitement plz



Tps43 said:


> Yeah that moron can go anywhere
> 
> 
> Thanks alot bro
> 
> 
> Something which is our weak link in arieal arena


PAC 3 long range SAM system

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## Khafee

mingle said:


> No that's one point plus
> @Khafee plz end excitement plz
> 
> 
> PAC 3 long range SAM system


What TPS is referring to is defensive. Not offensive.

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> What TPS is referring to is defensive. Not offensive.


No clue then You guys should break the excitement now guys r dying
Khafee leak one New vipers 
Khafee leak two used vipers along Blk 70 upgrades
Now khafee Leak three???????? +

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## Gorgin Khan

Khafee said:


> What TPS is referring to is defensive. Not offensive.



Thaad , Radar , AMRAAM SAM

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## mingle

Gorgin Khan said:


> Thaad , Radar , AMRAAM SAM


Think defencive in Air defence may be ruefulers???

May be U2

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## Gorgin Khan

mingle said:


> Think defencive in Air defence may be ruefulers???



Thats also something we are missing for F-16s. U2 No need i guess given the satelites

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## Vortex

@Khafee and @Tps43 

Bhaio app dono ney humay tarsa tarsa kar maar deyna hai 


Main issi waqt FIR register karwatha hun app key hilaf

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## mingle

BATMAN said:


> MQ9


We already operating drones I don't think it's MQ9

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## Pakhtoon yum

Tps43 said:


> Some other multiroler thing is also coming in paf and It would be a game changer
> P.S : it’s not an aircraft


The helicopters...

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## mingle

Pakhtoon yum said:


> The helicopters...


Heavy lift Aircraft???


----------



## Pakhtoon yum

mingle said:


> Heavy lift Aircraft???


I have no idea, I'm just shooting randomly, like everyone else. It could have something to do with C-130s because our mobility in PA is severally lacking.

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## MystryMan

Keysersoze said:


> For 24 planes?


Production line will only be feasible if we want to adopt F16 like we did with M3/M5. Maybe do something similar to what Turks have done with buying A129 IP and modified to T129. But it would mean end of JF-17 at Block3.

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## mingle

Pakhtoon yum said:


> I have no idea, I'm just shooting randomly, like everyone else. It could have something to do with C-130s because our mobility in PA is severally lacking.


We all actually let's wait for rabbit to come out from Hatt by magical @Khafee

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## Armchair

TPS is talking about refuelers for the F-16s

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## aliyusuf

Armchair said:


> TPS is talking about refuelers for the F-16s


But he also said it's not an aircraft

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## MystryMan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> It started with *#KhafeeLeaks* ... then came *#KhafeeLeaks2* and now there is talk of *#KhafeeLeaks3* ...
> 
> Dear God... *#SurpriseDay2* is coming?
> 
> *#GangaBurningRedHot*


Whats Khafee leaks2? 
I'm too lazy to go through 90 pages.


----------



## Cookie Monster

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> It started with *#KhafeeLeaks* ... then came *#KhafeeLeaks2* and now there is talk of *#KhafeeLeaks3* ...
> 
> Dear God... *#SurpriseDay2* is coming?
> 
> *#GangaBurningRedHot*


Wait what was KhafeeLeaks2?


----------



## MystryMan

Tps43 said:


> Some other multiroler thing is also coming in paf and It would be a game changer
> P.S : it’s not an aircraft


"multi-role but not an aircraft for PAF"

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## Cookie Monster

Tps43 said:


> Yeah that moron can go anywhere
> 
> 
> Thanks alot bro
> 
> 
> Something which is our weak link in arieal arena


Mobile long range SAM system like the S400...but I assume maybe of Chinese origin?


----------



## MystryMan

zulu said:


> india ka roona gaana start ho chukaa hai .Pure banyaa danda dekhty hi raa***di roonaa chalu
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156996007860641793


they should be declared *Shupapowr of Randirona*

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## mingle

MystryMan said:


> they should be declared *Shupapowr of Randirona*


Cheap Nation


----------



## Maxpane

Tps43 said:


> Some other multiroler thing is also coming in paf and It would be a game changer
> P.S : it’s not an aircraft


welcome back sir . long time



Tps43 said:


> Sirf just few more days


sir ap main ur @Khafee sir main koi farak nahn ha . Donu aik hi tarah tarpaty ho full suspence

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## aliyusuf

According to @Tps43 

Multi-role.
Game changer.
Not an aircraft.
Coming to PAF.
This is either a missile defence system or some sort of advanced Radar/Electronic Warfare System.

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## Maxpane

sir cyber electronic warfare system?


----------



## mingle

Maxpane said:


> sir cyber electronic warfare system?


No what to do with PAF



aliyusuf said:


> According to @Tps43
> 
> Multi-role.
> Game changer.
> Not an aircraft.
> Coming to PAF.
> This is either a missile defence system or some sort of advanced Radar/Electronic Warfare System.


I am stuck on PAC 3


----------



## Maxpane

mingle said:


> No what to do with PAF


sir g tuka mara ha . unhun ne tu batana nahn ha

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## mingle

Maxpane said:


> sir g tuka mara ha . unhun ne tu batana nahn ha


We don't have great high attitude coverage like S400 plus any high attitude SAM system will induct in PAF not Army to eliminate risk of friendly fire

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## Maxpane

mingle said:


> We don't have great high attitude coverage like S400 plus any high attitude SAM system will induct in PAF not Army to eliminate risk of friendly fire


sir @Tps43 sir said that its not sam

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## Gripen9

mingle said:


> We don't have great high attitude coverage like S400 plus any high attitude SAM system will induct in PAF not Army to eliminate risk of friendly fire


I believe PAF/PA has created a joint command for area AD?

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## mingle

Maxpane said:


> sir @Tps43 sir said that its not sam


OK all tukas r over let's wait

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## Maxpane

anti air missile system


----------



## mingle

Maxpane said:


> anti air missile system


TAHHAD


----------



## Maxpane

mingle said:


> TAHHAD


yes


----------



## Ultima Thule

Maxpane said:


> anti air missile system


NO but may be AH-1Z Viper, just my 2 cent bro @Maxpane



Maxpane said:


> yes





mingle said:


> TAHHAD


 Near Impossible @Maxpane @mingle


----------



## Maxpane

pakistanipower said:


> NO but may be AH-1Z Viper, just my 2 cent bro @Maxpane
> 
> 
> 
> Near Impossible @Maxpane @mingle


why not?


----------



## Pakhtoon yum

mingle said:


> We all actually let's wait for rabbit to come out from Hatt by magical @Khafee

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## Maxpane

pakistanipower said:


> NO but may be AH-1Z Viper, just my 2 cent bro @Maxpane
> 
> 
> 
> Near Impossible @Maxpane @mingle


sir Ah-1z are also coming bith @Khafee sir and @Tps43 are saying same thing

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## mingle

Pakhtoon yum said:


> View attachment 572036
> View attachment 572037


These r subs from China and probably Italy


----------



## Pakhtoon yum

mingle said:


> These r subs from China and probably Italy


I see, I misread boomers as "bombers"

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## Ultima Thule

Maxpane said:


> why not?


May be PAC-3 but not THAAD because its their latest and classified tech, they will give those countries that enemy to China but Definitely not for Pakistan which is China's friends/ally @Maxpane

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## Maxpane

pakistanipower said:


> May be PAC-3 but not THAAD because its their latest and classified tech, they will give those countries that enemy to China but Definitely not for Pakistan which is China's friends/ally @Maxpane


ok lets wait what @Khafee and @Tps43 are going to reveal

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## aliyusuf

Could be ...

S-500 Prometheus Missile Defence System
Krasukha-4 (electronic warfare system)
Both are extremely potent and fall under the game changer category.


----------



## Ultima Thule

aliyusuf said:


> Could be ...
> 
> S-500 Prometheus Missile Defence System
> Krasukha-4 (electronic warfare system)
> Both are extremely potent and fall under the game changer category.


These system from Russia not from USA, READ *THE TITLE, *and we are just started good relation with Russia, there will be no Chance to get these system in near future from Russia, keep away from your fairy tales @aliyusuf

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## Maxpane

120 vipers great news

@Tps43 sir ap @Starlord k maikey walun se 110 vipers mang rahy the un k maike walun ne 10 extra de rahy hain

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> I didn't know you get divine revelations.
> 
> Khafee did not make any case. He informed the forum what he found out through official channels.



I don't need to explain your side to the people but this is more about my understanding of certain matters.

I did forget to mention *Strong Case in view to discuss. As far as it goes for the source & confirmation, I agree that unless disclosed officially, the thread deserves to remain active for many reasons. You are reading into two different aspects of my statement as individually, I have no dog in this fight if you made a claim here but from moderation prospective; I then made it clear in regard to concern to let the discussion be continued without challenging your source/links/credibility at all. 

Rest about divine revelation; hope you wouldn't mind to not to use those words for me at-least. I would have done wrongs in my life and can only seek forgiveness from ALLAH (SWT) for whatever wrong I have ever done and a man as such can't be on the level of being told through divine revelations at all. 

Regards,

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## The Eagle

Tps43 said:


> There’s one idiot TT analyst who now I try to avoid at all cost so Got disheartened and took a break from pdf
> But thanks



Once, a brotherly advise was given not in reference to someone particular but still, seems like you got it but the other way.

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## Aamir Hussain

What is in the works and a bit realistic to gun for is:

1. Release of 8 F-16 block 52 (This dove tails with the US$ 700 million figure withheld under CSF)
2. 12 AH1-Z Helos and completion of the remaining helos. Paid for by GoP
3. MaxxPro Paid for by GoP. Fatman update.. delivered. Thank you for the update Fatman.
4. LM Gas turbines for ADA (Not sure about this)
5. Misc. Items that were in the pipeline including spares for P3C and upgrade program.
6. Continued support for F-16 and other programs. PAid for by GoP Sovereign funds
7. 2 x OPV's for MSA. Paid for by GoP funds.
8. Sale of Air to Air Missiles in long range class

Rest is all wishful thinking.

The US$9 billion we keep talking about has never been accepted by USG as legit reimbursement. The last reimbursement that was withheld was around US$ 450 million and a backlog of around US$ 300 million. The US$ 9 billion figure is a Pakistani figure and not a US claim.

As far as I know, we can buy anything (Within the reasonable ambit of non sensitive technology) as long as we pay for it through FMS program. Here, our erstwhile friends in the long robes can come in handy. Let us see how best we can rope them in and with what in return.

My educated guess based upon watching Pak-US relationship for the last 50 years!!!

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## fatman17

Aamir Hussain said:


> What is in the works and a bit realistic to gun for is:
> 
> 1. 8 F-16 block 52
> 2. 12 AH1-Z Helos and completion of the remaining helos.
> 3. MaxxPro
> 4. LM Gas turbines for ADA (Not sure about this)
> 5. Misc. Items that were in the pipeline including spares for P3C and upgrade program.
> 6. Continued support for F-16 and other programs.
> 7. 2 x OPV's for MSA. PAid for by GoP funds.
> 8. Sale of Air to Air Missiles in long range class
> 
> Rest is all wishful thinking.
> 
> The US$9 billion we keep talking about has never been accepted by USG as legit reimbursement. The last reimbursement that was withheld was around US$ 450 million and a backlog of around US$ 300 million. The US$ 9 billion figure is a Pakistani figure and not a US claim.
> 
> As far as I know, we can buy anything (Within the reasonable ambit of non sensitive technology) as long as we pay for it through FMS program.
> 
> My educated guess based upon watching Pak-US relationship for the last 50 years!!!


Thanks, a saner voice has spoken. Point3 has been delivered.

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## Tank131

I dont know how people are going to deal if this turns out to be another Su-35 false rumor. I hope its not, but seems like too much of a shift too quickly, for it to be true.

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## SABRE

Aamir Hussain said:


> What is in the works and a bit realistic to gun for is:
> 
> 1. Release of 8 F-16 block 52 (This dove tails with the US$ 700 million figure withheld under CSF)
> 2. 12 AH1-Z Helos and completion of the remaining helos. Paid for by GoP
> 3. MaxxPro Paid for by GoP. Fatman update.. delivered. Thank you for the update Fatman.
> 4. LM Gas turbines for ADA (Not sure about this)
> 5. Misc. Items that were in the pipeline including spares for P3C and upgrade program.
> 6. Continued support for F-16 and other programs. PAid for by GoP Sovereign funds
> 7. 2 x OPV's for MSA. Paid for by GoP funds.
> 8. Sale of Air to Air Missiles in long range class
> 
> Rest is all wishful thinking.
> 
> The US$9 billion we keep talking about has never been accepted by USG as legit reimbursement. The last reimbursement that was withheld was around US$ 450 million and a backlog of around US$ 300 million. The US$ 9 billion figure is a Pakistani figure and not a US claim.
> 
> As far as I know, we can buy anything (Within the reasonable ambit of non sensitive technology) as long as we pay for it through FMS program. Here, our erstwhile friends in the long robes can come in handy. Let us see how best we can rope them in and with what in return.
> 
> My educated guess based upon watching Pak-US relationship for the last 50 years!!!



Sounds very reasonable. No disrespect to any member's credibility nor any pessimism but the fact check (by you) shows that we have not even achieved these items that have been stuck in the pipeline for so long and we are raising hope on pipe dreams. Some of the possible F-16 related deals stated here sound something that Pakistan/PAF might desire to have but not necessarily something that the US might be willing to sell to us at this point. It all sounds '_too soon for that_.' We have just hit a reset but pretend to have reached new heights in US-Pakistan bilateral relations. At present, the items identified by you would be the primary attainable goals for the Pakistani establishment.

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## maverick1977

When are more details coming out of this potential contract ??


----------



## Tps43

The Eagle said:


> Once, a brotherly advise was given not in reference to someone particular but still, seems like you got it but the other way.


Hahahahaha 



Maxpane said:


> 120 vipers great news
> 
> @Tps43 sir ap @Starlord k maikey walun se 110 vipers mang rahy the un k maike walun ne 10 extra de rahy hain


Hahahaah 
Haan zaroor

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## aliyusuf

pakistanipower said:


> These system from Russia not from USA, READ *THE TITLE, *and we are just started good relation with Russia, there will be no Chance to get these system in near future from Russia, keep away from your fairy tales @aliyusuf


We were trying to figure out what @Tps43 really meant with his clues and trying to come up with possibilities. Of course it is fairy tales for now, because only Tps43 knows what he actually meant. Maybe *you should refrain from taking this too seriously* and try to understand the context in which I made my post.

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## Tps43

aliyusuf said:


> @Tps43 Kahin Quantum Radars tau nahi arahe? Just checking.
> 
> Game changer hi hoga.
> 
> Anti-Stealth ke liye Long wave radars bhi hosakte hein


Nhi itna ache din nhi but still something is good up to sleeves

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## maverick1977

I don’t believe it till I see the PO ... purchasinf order .. that’s how I always saw it ..


----------



## Tps43

PWFI said:


> @Khafee @Tps43
> Aap ko Allah puchei...musalmano ko tarsa reh ho!!


Hahahaha

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Looks like a package deal!!! You get both the fighters and AD together!! Don’t keep the Turkish loophole....


The problem is all F-16's that are presently in Pakistan would be going to USA for further MLU which is also high risk. USA could without prior notice pass a bill to embargo these then where would PAF stand. Considering this PAF chose Turkey for the MLU programe before. This time the Americans know PAF has no other option than the US. 

@Tps43 , @Khafee What are the prospects that PAF aircraft can be MLUeD in South Korea? South Korea is also upgrading their existing F-16's to V standard.

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## Ultima Thule

aliyusuf said:


> We were trying to figure out what @Tps43 really meant with his clues and trying to come up with possibilities. Of course it is fairy tales for now, because only Tps43 knows what he actually meant. Maybe *you should refrain from taking this too seriously* and try to understand the context in which I made my post.


It a potential deal with USA for F-16 BLOCK-70 latest armaments, upgrade all our old F-16 to V standard and you're talking about S-500 and other Russian system, as i say earlier we are just started our warm relations we/Russia currently lacking to trust each other, its takes years to build trust with Russia and Last you're forgeting S-500 still in developing/testing stages, and first customers will be Russian air defense force in Numbers then they will export to other countries and also not forget Indian lobbies in Russian Duma @aliyusuf


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## Aamir Hussain

It is not about trust between Russia and Pakistan. It is all about more arms sales to India by Russia. They will not sell to us major armaments as long as they have a big chunk of the Indian Arms Market!!

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## Tps43

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The problem is all F-16's that are presently in Pakistan would be going to USA for further MLU which is also high risk. USA could without prior notice pass a bill to embargo these then where would PAF stand. Considering this PAF chose Turkey for the MLU programe before. This time the Americans know PAF has no other option than the US.
> 
> @Tps43 , @Khafee What are the prospects that PAF aircraft can be MLUeD in South Korea? South Korea is also upgrading their existing F-16's to V standard.


Amreki honge

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## aliyusuf

pakistanipower said:


> Last you're forgeting S-500 still in developing/testing stages


This was all conjecture as @Tps43 still chooses to be less than forthcoming about his clues. But nonetheless, neither Tps43 nor I put any time frame as to when they would be coming and what it's going to be.

The deal for S-500 could be signed in a few months with delivery scheduled for a much later date.

The Krasukha-4 is arguably the most potent EW system in the world for broadcast jamming. It's performance was all too apparent in Syria.

The keywords of Tps43's clue were ... Multirole, Game-Changer, Not an Aircraft & for PAF service. Hence the above two certainly fulfill all these except for Multirole fully.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Tps43 said:


> Amreki honge


Allah Khair kare abb.
PAF is also going for some LIFT platforms? 
@Windjammer recently stated USA is going to replace existing air refuelers PAF could procure some of these as well. If all these are true then PAF has really played her cards very well.

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## Ultima Thule

aliyusuf said:


> This was all conjecture as @Tps43 still chooses to be less than forthcoming about his clues. But nonetheless, neither Tps43 nor I put any time frame as to when they would be coming and what it's going to be.
> 
> The deal for S-500 could be signed in a few months with delivery scheduled for a much later date.
> 
> The Krasukha-4 is arguably the most potent EW system in the world for broadcast jamming. It's performance was all too apparent in Syria.
> 
> The keywords of Tps43's clue were ... Multirole, Game-Changer, Not an Aircraft & for PAF service. Hence the above two certainly fulfill all these except for Multirole fully.


AS @Aamir Hussain suggest as far as India Remains big military arms importer for Russia, there will be least Chance to buy big ticket Item from Russia @aliyusuf


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## araz

aliyusuf said:


> According to @Tps43
> 
> Multi-role.
> Game changer.
> Not an aircraft.
> Coming to PAF.
> This is either a missile defence system or some sort of advanced Radar/Electronic Warfare System.


MPDRs.
A

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## Cookie Monster

Tps43 said:


> There’s one idiot TT analyst who now I try to avoid at all cost so Got disheartened and took a break from pdf
> But thanks


Slightly off topic but I'm curious...how does one become a TT anyways?

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## aliyusuf

pakistanipower said:


> AS @Aamir Hussain suggest as far as India Remains big military arms importer for Russia, there will be least Chance to buy big ticket Item from Russia @aliyusuf


True if looked at with the prism of Pakistan-India context only. Things become quite blurry and difficult to call when you factor in China in all this and look at it from a Sino-Russian Global strategy prism to counter USA's global policies and tactics. Furthermore Russia wants to be part of CPEC too.

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## Wolf

Some things are too good to be true. A safe guess for IF this news is true seems this that Americans want to pressure India by offering goodies to Pakistan. This way Americans intend to get a big order from indians. If indians don't do so, then Americans will kinda punish indians by giving 24 F-16s package.

Any game changer equipment is a distant proposition unless some serious strategic guarantees are given by Pakistanis which again is very difficult to conceive and implement.

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## Ultima Thule

aliyusuf said:


> True if looked at with the prism of Pakistan-India context only. Things become quite blurry and difficult to call when you factor in China in all this and look at it from a Sino-Russian Global strategy prism to counter USA's global policies and tactics. Furthermore Russia wants to be part of CPEC too.


Yeah 100% agree with you bro

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## aliyusuf

Wolf said:


> Some things are too good to be true. A safe guess for IF this news is true seems this that Americans want to pressure India by offering goodies to Pakistan. This way Americans intend to get a big order from indians. If indians don't do so, then Americans will kinda punish indians by giving 24 F-16s package.
> 
> Any game changer equipment is a distant proposition unless some serious strategic guarantees are given by Pakistanis which again is very difficult to conceive and implement.


If you search this thread from the start, you will find @Khafee 's explanation about why the USA is seemingly reaching out to Pakistan in this way. You may or may not agree with his assessment, but it is plausible and worth a discussion on it's own.

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## Aamir Hussain

aliyusuf said:


> True if looked at with the prism of Pakistan-India context only. Things become quite blurry and difficult to call when you factor in China in all this and look at it from a Sino-Russian Global strategy prism to counter USA's global policies and tactics. Furthermore Russia wants to be part of CPEC too.[/QUOTE
> 
> With which ever prism one views the relationship....Russian engagement with India is multifaceted and covers billions of dollars, annually. Therefore, Mr. Putin is not going to jeopardize that for a measly US$ 800 million dollars worth of sale at the max.
> 
> Furthermore, we criticize Uncle Sam and he is our most favorite bashing boy, the fact remains that most of the stuff that Pakistan bought in large quantities over the 40 years of your relationship with USA, was from National Funds of USA!! As Parveen Shakir said, Baat tu Such hai per baat hai ruswaee ki!!!
> 
> And Russia and China are not USA. So my friend Russian route is not going to happen till India finally dances with USA and gyrates it saree clad hips..... and let go of it old love Russia!!
> 
> The only other way for it to happen, if at all, is technology transfer to China and then to Pakistan. This conduit too has a limit to it. Russia obviously does not want its hottest selling goods reverse engineered and sold off as competition to its own products.

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## Tps43

Maxpane said:


> welcome back sir . long time
> 
> 
> sir ap main ur @Khafee sir main koi farak nahn ha . Donu aik hi tarah tarpaty ho full suspence


Hahahahah



aliyusuf said:


> This was all conjecture as @Tps43 still chooses to be less than forthcoming about his clues. But nonetheless, neither Tps43 nor I put any time frame as to when they would be coming and what it's going to be.
> 
> The deal for S-500 could be signed in a few months with delivery scheduled for a much later date.
> 
> The Krasukha-4 is arguably the most potent EW system in the world for broadcast jamming. It's performance was all too apparent in Syria.
> 
> The keywords of Tps43's clue were ... Multirole, Game-Changer, Not an Aircraft & for PAF service. Hence the above two certainly fulfill all these except for Multirole fully.


We are going to receive deliveries from next year 



Cookie Monster said:


> Slightly off topic but I'm curious...how does one become a TT anyways?


They are knowledgeable and foresee many thing except one or two parchis
I know a Tt on pdf who knows nothing in detail about any defense related item ops working not even a single one , that person got tiltle based on avatars



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Allah Khair kare abb.
> PAF is also going for some LIFT platforms?
> @Windjammer recently stated USA is going to replace existing air refuelers PAF could procure some of these as well. If all these are true then PAF has really played her cards very well.


Lift will come and this cas is after that platform 
Paf will be heck of a force if things proceed acc to plans



Pakhtoon yum said:


> The helicopters...


Nope 



MystryMan said:


> "multi-role but not an aircraft for PAF"


Solve this Mystry

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Tps43 said:


> Lift will come and this cas is after that platform
> Paf will be heck of a force if things proceed acc to plans


T50 Golden Eagle should be considered after all its a joint venture between Lockheed Martin and KAI. Maybe USA would also be willing to provide FMS support


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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> T50 Golden Eagle should be considered after all its a joint venture between Lockheed Martin and KAI. Maybe USA would also be willing to provide FMS support


L-15 Has more Chance tham T50


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## aliyusuf

Tps43 said:


> We are going to receive deliveries from next year


Sir jee when are you going to reveal what will be delivered?

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## Bratva

Just to give people an idea, What @Bilal Khan 777 said 3.5 years ago. And what @Tps43 is hinting at



Bilal Khan 777 said:


> *Unconfirmed reports suggest Lockheed Martin TPS-77 MRR, on offer to Pakistan for low level sensor replacement has finally become a serious contender among other systems being considered, after showing a "concept demonstrator" in-country. The system is being considered in continuation of the TPS-77 High Power Radar acquisition earlier. However, Pakistan continues to maintain an aggressive posture in its air defense sensor umbrella, with continued operation of TPS-43, YLC-2, and various airborne radars.*
> 
> Analysts suggest that acquisition of TPS-77 MRR will make Pakistan dependent on the US for its low level sensors, with MPDR fleet facing major obsolescence. As in the past, support for US systems get easily pulled during conflicts, and while there is redundancy in the high-level sensors, the low level sensors require a partner that stays neutral during conflicts and continues to supply critical parts such transmitter and receiver subsystems.

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## aliyusuf

Bratva said:


> Just to give people an idea, What @Bilal Khan 777 said 3.5 years ago. And what @Tps43 is hinting at


Thank you for sharing this. Seems to foot the bill for @Tps43 clues.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

@Khafee will the Blk 70/72 be also capable to carry this

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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> @Khafee will the Blk 70/72 be also capable to carry this


I think we are guessing/assuming too much here, it may be not part of the armament of projected F-16 purchase @ACE OF THE AIR

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## PDF

Tps43 said:


> Solve this Mystry


A device which can make clouds of Modi Jee... Ab apun bhi clouds ke cover se sirjeekal strikes kerne ko plan banata hai.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakistanipower said:


> I think we are guessing/assuming too much here, it may be not part of the armament of project F-16 purchase @ACE OF THE AIR


may be but this is one capability our F-16's lack, hence mirage III's and V's are operated still in numbers for naval platforms.

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## Cornered Tiger

fatman17 said:


> Thanks, a saner voice has spoken. Point3 has been delivered.



How many Sir? What is the total number of deliveries till now? Thanks


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## Khafee

Keysersoze said:


> Extended range. 650km allegedly.


Not allegedly, publicly stated.

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## Pakistani Fighter

@Khafee how much block 70s are expected? Plus any news about AIM 120Ds??

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## Khafee

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> @Khafee how much block 70s are expected? Plus any news about AIM 120Ds??


Bhai so many knowledgeable Tin Cans on this thread, ask them as well. 
Lets see what new BS, these keyboard warriors regurgitate.

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## Aamir Hussain

Cornered Tiger said:


> How many Sir? What is the total number of deliveries till now? Thanks


Around 200+ were given or bought

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## MystryMan

Tps43 said:


> Solve this Mystry



PAF is not very keen on SAM from the US. So is it some RADAR/ground based EW/ECM System? and which one will be officially announced first, blk72 or your mystery multirole system?

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## Khafee

chauvunist said:


> Khafee bhai, I guess India is in panicked mood after getting the news from this forum of Pak getting new F 16 ..They must be thinking better do something than later..
> You have made them mobilized a whole alot military



I expected a few phone calls, but not the Def Sec to go running 



The Eagle said:


> I don't need to explain your side to the people but this is more about my understanding of certain matters.
> 
> I did forget to mention *Strong Case in view to discuss.



Neither do you need to blindly speculate as to the source of my intel. 
I'm not a tin can, to indulge in firing arrows in the air. 

Regards

_August 1, 2019
A top-level Indian delegation headed by Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra reached Washington on Thursday and is expected to discuss military relations between the two countries. India is expected to raise objection over the proposed sale and assistance to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 fighter aircraft fleet._
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ence-and-military-dialogue-1576254-2019-08-01

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## chauvunist

Khafee said:


> I expected a few phone calls, but not the Def Sec to go running



Pardon my lack of knowledge but ours Def Sec or theirs and running to where..

Edit: just got, it their def Sec is on rhondi rhona mission in US

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## Tps43

MystryMan said:


> PAF is not very keen on SAM from the US. So is it some RADAR/ground based EW/ECM System? and which one will be officially announced first, blk72 or your mystery multirole system?


My mystery will be the first



Hachiman said:


> A device which can make clouds of Modi Jee... Ab apun bhi clouds ke cover se sirjeekal strikes kerne ko plan banata hai.
> View attachment 572086


Hahahahahah

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## Rakesh

Khafee said:


> I expected a few phone calls, but not the Def Sec to go running
> 
> 
> 
> Neither do you need to blindly speculate as to the source of my intel.
> I'm not a tin can, to indulge in firing arrows in the air.
> 
> Regards
> 
> _August 1, 2019
> A top-level Indian delegation headed by Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra reached Washington on Thursday and is expected to discuss military relations between the two countries. India is expected to raise objection over the proposed sale and assistance to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 fighter aircraft fleet._
> https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ence-and-military-dialogue-1576254-2019-08-01


Sharp eyes !


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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> may be but this is one capability our F-16's lack, hence mirage III's and V's are operated still in numbers for naval platforms.


I think harpoon is already integrated to our F-16 fleet @ACE OF THE AIR

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> Neither do you need to blindly speculate as to the source of my intel.
> I'm not a tin can, to indulge in firing arrows in the air.
> 
> Regards



Khafee, I never regarded you as such but this is your repeated line of tin can which is not worthy anymore. Point me the post where speculation has been done in regard to your Intel, if it is at all. 

I will tell how this tin can repeated story is becoming. Chaploos wouldn't tell you truth but a true friend.

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## New World

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.


Hi sirji, will those 8 jets which were offered by Obama also included or they are separate..


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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> Point me the post where speculation has been done in regard to your Intel, if it is at all.


See your comments below


The Eagle said:


> Khafee made a case based upon circumstances, tid bits from around, progress & regional situation

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> See your comments below



That is in counter for the few been crying for the source again & again. I was quoting Araz in fact but the message was for those who could read and will get it. As we have a trend to back-up news with source/link, I made a case for why it has to be discussed and you should read whole in context. If it has to do with your own Source or Intel; we have dozens of people with same approach and connections. So either it is an Intel or Source based; doesn't matter when the discussion is being initiated based upon certain matters.

What make you think that I will be explaining others for you? was a surprise from your side. You can carry on with your leaks and whatever you are supposed to tell. If it has to do with sources then I have already shared a chatter was on since months ago whereby numbers may differ but the words were with the people supposed to know that.

don't get triggered for everything and think about the same from tin can prospective. Already told you, it is losing the worth to pay attention anymore.

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## Khafee

New World said:


> Hi sirji, will those 8 jets which were offered by Obama also included or they are separate..


That duck, died a long time ago.

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## Sine Nomine

Tps43 said:


> I know a Tt on pdf who knows nothing in detail about any defense related item ops working not even a single one , that person got tiltle based on avatars


Bahi na kar Ban lug jaye ga.

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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> That is in counter for the few been crying for the source again & again. I was quoting Araz in fact but the message was for those who could read and will get it. As we have a trend to back-up news with source/link, I made a case for why it has to be discussed and you should read whole in context. If it has to do with your own Source or Intel; we have dozens of people with same approach and connections. So either it is an Intel or Source based; doesn't matter when the discussion is being initiated based upon certain matters.
> 
> What make you think that I will be explaining others for you? was a surprise from your side. You can carry on with your leaks and whatever you are supposed to tell. If it has to do with sources then I have already shared a chatter was on since months ago whereby numbers may differ but the words were with the people supposed to know that.
> 
> don't get triggered for everything and think about the same from tin can prospective. Already told you, it is losing the worth to pay attention anymore.



You asked me to quote you, I did. Now please spare me your holier than thou speech. Not interested. I am well aware of your agenda. 

Things are already seeing the light of day, whether people on this forum want to believe it or not.

*Indian defence team in US, to hold defence and military dialogue*
August 1, 2019

A top-level Indian delegation headed by Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra reached Washington on Thursday and is expected to discuss military relations between the two countries. _India is expected to raise objection over the proposed sale and assistance to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 fighter aircraft fleet._
_(excerpt above, details in link below)_

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ence-and-military-dialogue-1576254-2019-08-01

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/top-...discuss-security-issues.629332/#post-11664228

@Horus pls note

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## Armchair

Aamir Hussain said:


> What is in the works and a bit realistic to gun for is:
> 
> 1. Release of 8 F-16 block 52 (This dove tails with the US$ 700 million figure withheld under CSF)
> 2. 12 AH1-Z Helos and completion of the remaining helos. Paid for by GoP
> 3. MaxxPro Paid for by GoP. Fatman update.. delivered. Thank you for the update Fatman.
> 4. LM Gas turbines for ADA (Not sure about this)
> 5. Misc. Items that were in the pipeline including spares for P3C and upgrade program.
> 6. Continued support for F-16 and other programs. PAid for by GoP Sovereign funds
> 7. 2 x OPV's for MSA. Paid for by GoP funds.
> 8. Sale of Air to Air Missiles in long range class
> 
> Rest is all wishful thinking.
> 
> The US$9 billion we keep talking about has never been accepted by USG as legit reimbursement. The last reimbursement that was withheld was around US$ 450 million and a backlog of around US$ 300 million. The US$ 9 billion figure is a Pakistani figure and not a US claim.
> 
> As far as I know, we can buy anything (Within the reasonable ambit of non sensitive technology) as long as we pay for it through FMS program. Here, our erstwhile friends in the long robes can come in handy. Let us see how best we can rope them in and with what in return.
> 
> My educated guess based upon watching Pak-US relationship for the last 50 years!!!



Okay, let's see if Aamir Hossain's *speculation *is more valid than the *insider information *being provided by khafee. This will settle whether TTs are tin cans or not. If this speculation (which is placed on this thread disregarding the value of this thread and indirectly devaluing Khafee's input) is correct, then we all get banned. But if Khafee is more correct then we need a serious re-evaluation of this TT business on PDF.

Fair?

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## Khafee

Tps43 said:


> I know a Tt on pdf who knows nothing in detail about any defense related item ops working not even a single one , that person got tiltle based on avatars


Hence why they are called tin cans.

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## MystryMan

Khafee said:


> 24 New + 20 used


I guess the used ones will come from Blk40/42 EDA stock.

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> You asked me to quote you, I did. Now please spare me your holier than thou speech. Not interested. I am well aware of your agenda.
> 
> Things are already seeing the light of day, whether people on this forum want to believe it or not.
> 
> *Indian defence team in US, to hold defence and military dialogue*
> August 1, 2019
> 
> A top-level Indian delegation headed by Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra reached Washington on Thursday and is expected to discuss military relations between the two countries. _India is expected to raise objection over the proposed sale and assistance to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 fighter aircraft fleet.
> (excerpt above, details in link below)_
> 
> https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ence-and-military-dialogue-1576254-2019-08-01
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/top-...discuss-security-issues.629332/#post-11664228
> 
> @Horus pls note



You are wrongly fed by someone (a messenger) for your last bitter experience on PDF. Don't want to quote that matter nor want to repeat that episode but your posts for last two pages gives a better picture. I said and will repeat again differently that don't carried away due to some chaploos or TC messenger. 

Save it for later mate. I explain the reason of those words and had it been the case like you misunderstood; I wouldn't be around with necessary inputs as much as I can. That "Agenda" thing is a wrong approach and I can only say that, you are getting all that wrong. Everyone follows the update keenly and I know that part of Indian whining. I don't know what gave you the idea of my agenda or calling your Op a lie or misleading or anything that you wrongly took from my input.

This is what I shared few pages back as





in regard to support the argument of Viper Block coming to PAF. Didn't you understand the use of words such as "tid bits from around" and "progress"? You are a professional so your "around" must be the links and you noted the "progress" as you are being shared with, may be.

or you want me to say that so & so ranking officer is in contact with Khafee and told as such? I let it remain open ended with an idea of my understanding of your Op so this is my understanding and I didn't made a claim. 

May you have the peace,

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## Armchair

MystryMan said:


> I guess the used ones will come from Blk40/42 EDA stock.



Interestingly there are almost 400 F-16s stored in AMARC:
F-16 A 212
F-16 B 42
F-16 C 131
F-16 D 13
https://www.amarcexperience.com/ui/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=205&Itemid=274

This is a huge number to choose from. We could find some very good airframes in this giant list. If only we could get 100 of these birds...

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## The Eagle

Armchair said:


> Okay, let's see if Aamir Hossain's *speculation *is more valid than the *insider information *being provided by khafee. This will settle whether TTs are tin cans or not. If this speculation (which is placed on this thread disregarding the value of this thread and indirectly devaluing Khafee's input) is correct, then we all get banned. But if Khafee is more correct then we need a serious re-evaluation of this TT business on PDF.
> 
> Fair?



By the same standard, I don't see anyone on PDF except for the staff & Admin. This is an open forum and everyone can discuss based upon observations, educated guess, analysis per past experience or diplomatic relations, usual practices as well as pattern of certain defence acquisitions etc etc. 

Khafee said he has Intel and everyone on board supported to let the thread run and be discussed despite opposition by many for the lack of source. 

No one can be barred from sharing his/her understanding based upon observations and research and that must be qualitative and productive to discuss. Aamir said the same thin in the last of his post that this is his educated guess. No one is playing Air Chief Marshal here but personal opinion, knowledge, information or analysis.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Armchair said:


> Interestingly there are almost 400 F-16s stored in AMARC:
> F-16 A 212
> F-16 B 42
> F-16 C 131
> F-16 D 13
> https://www.amarcexperience.com/ui/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=205&Itemid=274
> 
> This is a huge number to choose from. We could find some very good airframes in this giant list. If only we could get 100 of these birds...


These F-16's are powered by GE not PW engines. PAF has PW engines...


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## Armchair

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> These F-16's are powered by GE not PW engines. PAF has PW engines...



American F-16s are actually a mix of GE and PW engined aircraft. And engine is not the main issue, airframe is.

Altogether, of the 1,446 F-16C/Ds ordered by the USAF, 556 were fitted with F100-series engines and 890 with F110s


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## BATMAN

The Eagle said:


> As we have a trend to back-up news with source/link


In another thread @HAIDER posted some sentences about Saudi bombing on Yemen, supported with a graphic picture but no link to news.... what can you do there?

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## Khafee

BATMAN said:


> In another thread @HAIDER posted some sentences about Saudi bombing on Yemen, supported with a graphic picture but no link to news.... what can you do there?


Bye Bye Batman, see you after the ban. It was good knowing you.

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## TOPGUN

Khafee said:


> 24 new
> 20 (approx) used



Khafee, is this for-sure bro ? I know you are battling to prove this is correct intel on here lolz.

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## Armchair

Just looking at the AMARC inventory, the C-23 Sherpas are available there. These are extremely ideal for rough and short field performance at altitude. They can help us develop small airbases all over Balochistan, KP and Northern Areas. They would give such a boost to our military. Can carry 30 armed troops or equipment or litters.

Well, this place AMARC is like a candy store. Here I am looking at some C-130s, Sea King helicopters and Cobras. Damn. Before the deal gets through, please do let me add a footnote...

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## Cool_Soldier

It would be really amazing if USA is ready for this deal to Pakistan.
Actually, I dont believe in US words and deals due to previous bitter experiences.
Once, it is delivered then will surely start thinking about changing policy route.


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## Armchair

The simple and hard answer to that is before every step, we demand payment. The key word here is before not after.


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## niaz

Sorry, don't trust the Trump or the USA. A most recent example of the US U-turn is the blocking of F-35 deliveries because Turkey purchased Russian S-400 Air Defence system and Turkey is a member of NATO!

I shall believe it when I see these F-16's at a Pakistani airbase.

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## BATMAN

niaz said:


> Sorry, don't trust the Trump or the USA. A most recent example of the US U-turn is the blocking of F-35 deliveries because Turkey purchased Russian S-400 Air Defence system and Turkey is a member of NATO!
> 
> I shall believe it when I see these F-16's at a Pakistani airbase.



I think discussion is about the offer on table and positive response from US, which is indeed a development and i trust the fundamental difference is the Donald Trump him self.

If and when deal materialize, is something no one can promise.

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## The Eagle

BATMAN said:


> In another thread @HAIDER posted some sentences about Saudi bombing on Yemen, supported with a graphic picture but no link to news.... what can you do there?



Report or tag, in-case of urgent matter. Ask any member and it works like that. Keeping track on every single thread is not that easy but reporting can help. Tag me so I will check if any Mod(s) didn't notice yet.

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## Flight of falcon

This headline says it all:


*India Conveys 'Grave Concern' to US over Military Assistance to Pakistan, Sale of F-16 Fighter Jets*


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.new...-military-assistance-to-pakistan-2254813.html

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## The Eagle

BATMAN said:


> If and when deal materialize, is something no one can promise.



Exactly, no one can promise and that is the reason, we have active discussion with Yes in favour and No against subject, in this regard.

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## Tps43

Bratva said:


> Just to give people an idea, What @Bilal Khan 777 said 3.5 years ago. And what @Tps43 is hinting at


Well there’s a twist



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Bahi na kar Ban lug jaye ga.


Behaq kisi ke zuban band karna zalim mashreh ki misalhai 
Mere khyal se pdf abhi itna zalim nhi hoa 



Khafee said:


> Hence why they are called tin cans.


Hahahahahahaahahah

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## maverick1977

Looks at the mindset of most of the folks here. The moment US threw the bone, eveeryone jumped on it to get more F16s. a slave mindset can never be independent. You should be saying, lets continue with JF17 and AzM program instead of wasting brain cells on F16s. THe world has moved to JSF 35 and Pakistan wants F16s... sad indeed sad.

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## SQ8

Flight of falcon said:


> This headline says it all:
> 
> 
> *India Conveys 'Grave Concern' to US over Military Assistance to Pakistan, Sale of F-16 Fighter Jets*
> 
> 
> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.new...-military-assistance-to-pakistan-2254813.html


That’s just from their FO. Their lobbyists are going nuts trying to get meetings with their caucus and Trump admin officials.

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## Dil Pakistan

@Khafee ; @Tps43 - I am making a wild guess.

Are the 24 used F-16 the UAE Block-60 upgraded to Block70/72 ??

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## Flight of falcon

maverick1977 said:


> Looks at the mindset of most of the folks here. The moment US threw the bone, eveeryone jumped on it to get more F16s. a slave mindset can never be independent. You should be saying, lets continue with JF17 and AzM program instead of wasting brain cells on F16s. THe world has moved to JSF 35 and Pakistan wants F16s... sad indeed sad.




I assume you do not even know basics of military hardware ABC. Please look up on google different type of aircrafts , their capabilities and compare them what Indians are about to get. You won’t be asking dumb questions after that.

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## Riz

maverick1977 said:


> Looks at the mindset of most of the folks here. The moment US threw the bone, eveeryone jumped on it to get more F16s. a slave mindset can never be independent. You should be saying, lets continue with JF17 and AzM program instead of wasting brain cells on F16s. THe world has moved to JSF 35 and Pakistan wants F16s... sad indeed sad.


Maal e muft.... Dil e Bereham... Samjh ai bhai jaan??


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## maverick1977

Flight of falcon said:


> I assume you do not even know basics of military hardware ABC. Please look up on google different type of aircrafts , their capabilities and compare them what Indians are about to get. You won’t be asking dumb questions after that.



Rofl Mr. Top Gun, I am not here for a Dick measuring contest.. I am comfortable with my knowledge.. 
You completely missed my point


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## Flight of falcon

maverick1977 said:


> Rofl Mr. Top Gun, I am not here for a Dick measuring contest.. I am comfortable with my knowledge..
> You completely missed my point




Measure your IQ as well just in case you find deficiency there as well

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## Dil Pakistan

kaif786 said:


> F-16Block72 didn’t u read the opening post?
> also if blk72 is coming then Aim-120D and Aim9x is confirmed, also now pakistan has huge technical leap over India ... now its time to teach hindus a lesson



Do you really have any brain inside your skull or is it empty?

Read my post again....I said: "Block-60 upgraded to Block-70/72".

Do you get it now genius?


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## maverick1977

Flight of falcon said:


> Measure your IQ as well just in case you find deficiency there as well


Engage not engage... disengage ... take a higher ground ... Good luck

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## Code_Geass

And my post asking for a good youtube channel on military related things was deleted despite it being in military multimedia thread i think irfan baloch sb has lots of time if he can delete that


The Eagle said:


> Report or tag, in-case of urgent matter. Ask any member and it works like that. Keeping track on every single thread is not that easy but reporting can help. Tag me so I will check if any Mod(s) didn't notice yet.


----------



## aliyusuf

Dil Pakistan said:


> Do you really have any brain inside your skull or is it empty?
> 
> Read my post again....I said: "Block-60 upgraded to Block-70/72".
> 
> Do you get it now genius?


The APG-80 AESA of the Block-60 has better specs than APG-83 of the Block-70/72 as per the Internet. 
Would appreciate it if you could share any information to the contrary that you may have regarding the specs of APG-80 vis-a-vis APG-83.

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## The Eagle

Code_Geass said:


> And my post asking for a good youtube channel on military related things was deleted despite it being in military multimedia thread i think irfan baloch sb has lots of time if he can delete that



In-case of dissatisfaction with Mod(s) decision, please post a thread in GHQ section.


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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> This headline says it all:
> 
> 
> *India Conveys 'Grave Concern' to US over Military Assistance to Pakistan, Sale of F-16 Fighter Jets*
> 
> 
> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.new...-military-assistance-to-pakistan-2254813.html


Why Americans care about them? Did they care America when they buy weapons from Russia or France recent S400 its nothing but hollow protest nobody would listen them.

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## PDF

Guess, we worked around modifying our old request. Seems we are back on track, in fact, shooting for much more.


> On June *28/06*, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF’s top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistan’s older F-16 A/Bs. The buy went through, and was accompanied by the supply of 26 older F-16s from USAF surplus stocks. Then, a 2014 sale added 13 machines from from Jordan.



Everyone, read this article/story to get better understanding. It has recorded all events related to PAF F-16s and its future plans those days.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/

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## TOPGUN

Hachiman said:


> Guess, we worked around modifying our old request. Seems we are back on track, in fact, shooting for much more.
> 
> 
> Everyone, read this article/story to get better understanding. It has recorded all events related to PAF F-16s and its future plans those days.
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/



Bro, where does it state that we will be getting more at the present state ? thanks.

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## ziaulislam

Oscar said:


> That’s just from their FO. Their lobbyists are going nuts trying to get meetings with their caucus and Trump admin officials.


and pakistan needs to counter it..
fact is that CSF is interest of both countries..
and if CSF is diverted to american weapons, than its double win for USA and actually a loss for pakistan....
to expect pakistan support without CSF is very unrealistic....
release of CSF will simply depend upon pentagon, POTUS certifying that Pakistan is playing its role..congress has no hand in it..
now getting a separate funding outside CSF for weapons will be difficult given congress mood..
used weapons from third countries shouldnt be tough given it only requires trump to say yes...

however,
i am still very pessimistic about any new weapons apart from some used one, given aggressive Indian lobbying

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## Khafee

TOPGUN said:


> Khafee, is this for-sure bro ? I know you are battling to prove this is correct intel on here lolz.


IA

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## TOPGUN

Khafee said:


> IA



Inshallah

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## Sine Nomine

Tps43 said:


> Behaq kisi ke zuban band karna zalim mashreh ki misalhai
> Mere khyal se pdf abhi itna zalim nhi hoa


Death to zalim mashrah

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## Dil Pakistan

aliyusuf said:


> The APG-80 AESA of the Block-60 has better specs than APG-83 of the Block-70/72 as per the Internet.
> Would appreciate it if you could share any information to the contrary that you may have regarding the specs of APG-80 vis-a-vis APG-83.



I am neither a technical person nor a military professional. I am only here for Pakistan, and to learn.

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## PDF

TOPGUN said:


> Bro, where does it state that we will be getting more at the present state ? thanks.


Nothing announced officially as of yet...but, have faith in @Khafee .

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## Keysersoze

Dil Pakistan said:


> @Khafee ; @Tps43 - I am making a wild guess.
> 
> Are the 24 used F-16 the UAE Block-60 upgraded to Block70/72 ??


I would doubt it. Those are already aesa equipped and there are probably issues around payments to UAE as well for development costs.


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## aliyusuf

Dil Pakistan said:


> I am neither a technical person nor a military professional. I am only here for Pakistan, and to learn.


We are all l here to learn. I am also not technical in the military sense and definitely not a military person. But I have interest in air combat and fighter planes.

It is our interest and enthusiasm which drives us in learning more and quickly. So if we first read up on the specs a bit of each block of the F-16, then we would know a few things on our own make proper conclusions on what we have read. The things that we don't understand can be asked on the Q&A thread on the forum.

The APG-80 has better specs than the APG-83 as per the internet. APG-83 is air-cooled and APG-80 is liquid cooled.
It is possible that there is disinformation to hide the true specs but that is not a given fact. Hence before we start to contemplate the possibility of an upgrade from Block-60 to Block-70/72, we first must understand whether and what is it that is exactly going to get upgraded.

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## Imran Khan

kahan tak phunch tumhara block 70 jawano ?

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## Armchair

maverick1977 said:


> Looks at the mindset of most of the folks here. The moment US threw the bone, eveeryone jumped on it to get more F16s. a slave mindset can never be independent. You should be saying, lets continue with JF17 and AzM program instead of wasting brain cells on F16s. THe world has moved to JSF 35 and Pakistan wants F16s... sad indeed sad.



You are right, we do suffer from a slave mindset. It is, in my opinion the biggest reason for our underdevelopment, lack of merit and corruption. All these slaves, starting from Ayub Khan preferred London over Pakistan, and today even you see our corrupt are corrupt because they want to be white, want to own mansions in England, USA, etc. 

We did jump the boat the moment we were offered F-16s, like Pavlov's dogs. The other side of it is that we saw on the 27th how effective our F-16s were. What they could do. We shot down 8 aircraft without losing a single plane. And got a helicopter as a bonus own goal for the IAF. There is a high probability of a limited war within the next 5 years and the air force will play a pivotal role. 

The air force needs F-16s. The tech is superior to the Chinese and Russian stuff out there. The kinematics are better than the JFT. We don't want to be another Iraq or Syria. And we can't fight effectively without these machines to provide top cover against Rafales, MKI and what not. 

If we could get the F-35, we certainly would get it, but _this is the best we can get. 
_
The other part of this equation is for the first time in a long time, we are making this deal as equals with the US, not as its henchman. Even Zia didn't have this, he literally handed photographs of our nuclear installations to the US, even though the ISI caught the spies red handed. 

We do have to think bigger. In the time of Machiavelli, and later with the collapse of the Roman empire, it was the mercenary armies, and allied Germanic tribes that, while they initially worked for the Romans (like we did for the US), they increasingly gained in power and prestige until they had their own game going. Notice the Huns who ultimately became a major power by themselves. 

Now, to do this, we have to take this kind of opportunities now, and look for other opportunities. We have to be like the Mamluks, and work our way upwards in the food chain. We have to think strategically and not, as you noted, continue with the slave mind. We have to stop continuing to be a colonial army and start thinking big. Thinking of how we can take advantage from the mess in the Middle East, In Iran, in Afghanistan. Howe we can act as a gateway to central asia, using the Chinese belt and road. 

Howe we can make big deals with Turkey and Malaysia. How we can act like the mercenary armies of the time of Machiavelli who increasingly became a force unto themselves. In this way, we have to become a new and nascent Sparta. 

As @MastanKhan noted, we have to see the silver lining in the dark clouds. Yemen could easily be a strategic gain for us, giving us control of the Strait of Hormuz. Essentially blocking the Indian Navy no matter how much bigger they are, we can sink their ships at will. Had we seen that vision earlier, today we would have had that silver lining from that cloud.

There are many more such opportunities, hanging there, waiting for us to have the vision to see them. And for that, as you so wisely noted, we need a new kind of mindset, that we lost during the 200 years of British and Sikh rule. Yet, I think the F-16s could be thought of as a useful step in the ladder for us in serving that same interest. Remember, the difference between a master and a slave is not that one is free of all economic wants, but one that can act upon his free will to take opportunities that he sees, and one that cannot, and sometimes does not even have the vision to see those opportunities.



aliyusuf said:


> The APG-80 AESA of the Block-60 has better specs than APG-83 of the Block-70/72 as per the Internet.
> Would appreciate it if you could share any information to the contrary that you may have regarding the specs of APG-80 vis-a-vis APG-83.



My understanding is that the APG-80 is a full-spec AESA with the requisite cooling to get top performance from the GAA AESA radar. While the SABR uses GAN, a better technology, but is partially air-cooled, meaning it cannot get the max performance from the radar. 

Cooling is a problem as it requires, power, space and weight. Which are in short supply as is. The SABR is a very flexible upgrade solution, as it can easily fit into the needs of the F-16 upgrade programs, but gains this flexibility at the tradeoff of max performance.

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## Code_Geass

Okay.


The Eagle said:


> In-case of dissatisfaction with Mod(s) decision, please post a thread in GHQ section.


----------



## Armchair

I personally believe (without any solid evidence or insider knowledge, just my judgment), that the SABR is more powerful than what the brochure states. Americans understate their specs while Russians over state them.

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## BATMAN

TOPGUN said:


> Khafee, is this for-sure bro ? I know you are battling to prove this is correct intel on here lolz.


He even mislead the Indians who are talking with Trump based on @Khafee leak!

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## Armchair

we are about to hit 100 pages

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## aliyusuf

Armchair said:


> I personally believe (without any solid evidence or insider knowledge, just my judgment), that the SABR is more powerful than what the brochure states. Americans understate their specs while Russians over state them.


I have a similar feeling that SABR is better than what is being let on. The USAF too has opted for the APG-83 to upgrade the mechanically scanned radars of their in-service F-16s. It is not just the flexibility of the upgrade but also adequate actual raw performance. Just my opinion.

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## Tamiyah

WoW. MashAllah we are about to hit 100 pages with utter garbage with no official confirmation or anything. Could our seniors please stop being a child.

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## aliyusuf

BATMAN said:


> He even mislead the Indians who are talking with Trump based on @Khafee leak!

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## Maxpane

Tamiyah said:


> WoW. MashAllah we are about to hit 100 pages with utter garbage with no official confirmation or anything. Could our seniors please stop being a child.


am sorry sir . if you think its pure garbage then why are you wasting your precious time just move on

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## Tamiyah

Maxpane said:


> am sorry sir . if you think its pure garbage then why are you wasting your precious time just move on


Dont call me sir please. I am junior and always be. I am just wandering in these threads because I want to find some official news.


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## Keysersoze

aliyusuf said:


> I have a similar feeling that SABR is better than what is being let on. The USAF too has opted for the APG-83 to upgrade the mechanically scanned radars of their in-service F-16s. It is not just the flexibility of the upgrade but also adequate actual raw performance. Just my opinion.


Cost may have played their part in the decision.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> kahan tak phunch tumhara block 70 jawano ?


Aap ko kya nazar aa raha hai? AH-1W and AH-1Z tou nazar aa rahe hain.

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## Imran Khan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Aap ko kya nazar aa raha hai? AH-1W and AH-1Z tou nazar aa rahe hain.


Humy kala andheera or 24
50 million nazar a rahy hain bus


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## Silicon0000

Gol maal hai Bhai gol mal hai

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## Cookie Monster

maverick1977 said:


> Looks at the mindset of most of the folks here. The moment US threw the bone, eveeryone jumped on it to get more F16s. a slave mindset can never be independent. You should be saying, lets continue with JF17 and AzM program instead of wasting brain cells on F16s. THe world has moved to JSF 35 and Pakistan wants F16s... sad indeed sad.


The part of the world that has moved on to F35 is the part that was offered F35 and could afford it. So ur comment about Pak settling for F16s while others have F35 is just wasted space on PDF. Just a cheap shot ignoring all the variables ground in reality.

As for continuing with JF17 and Azm...those are continuing. This F16 deal if it materializes isn't going to stop those programs. So again idk why u feel the need to type such baseless things.

Now coming back to the topic of F16s...according to OP these F16s are being offered while the bill is being paid by someone else...so u r saying that Pak should turn away and reject potent block 72 F16s given to it almost free of cost? And what's ur plan to protect the skies over Pak against IAF's soon to be delivered Rafales? Plz do tell...I'm very curious.

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## Code_Geass

If something like this become official it will be all over internet dont worry you wont miss out
Till then let us enjoy probability of this..


Tamiyah said:


> Dont call me sir please. I am junior and always be. I am just wandering in these threads because I want to find some official news.


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## Maxpane

Tamiyah said:


> Dont call me sir please. I am junior and always be. I am just wandering in these threads because I want to find some official news.


if you cant find then dnt waste your time and just move on

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## maverick1977

Cookie Monster said:


> The part of the world that has moved on to F35 is the part that was offered F35 and could afford it. So ur comment about Pak settling for F16s while others have F35 is just wasted space on PDF. Just a cheap shot ignoring all the variables ground in reality.
> 
> As for continuing with JF17 and Azm...those are continuing. This F16 deal if it materializes isn't going to stop those programs. So again idk why u feel the need to type such baseless things.
> 
> Now coming back to the topic of F16s...according to OP these F16s are being offered while the bill is being paid by someone else...so u r saying that Pak should turn away and reject potent block 72 F16s given to it almost free of cost? And what's ur plan to protect the skies over Pak against IAF's soon to be delivered Rafales? Plz do tell...I'm very curious.



May be i am naive or out of place, my understanding is that Block 3 should be able to counter Rafael's with PL 15, new engines, with off bore PL ?? category, HMD, AESA and all? THat is a self reliant and " self respecting" program.

i can argue that there is nothing free in this world. when someone gives you things for free, you are obliged to do their bidding... that hurts your interests... history is ripe with such examples. ask for trade to be more self reliant, access to market, but then there are no free f16s. sorry, its a slave mindset. other be a khudaar qoum and say i will pay for it...



Armchair said:


> You are right, we do suffer from a slave mindset. It is, in my opinion the biggest reason for our underdevelopment, lack of merit and corruption. All these slaves, starting from Ayub Khan preferred London over Pakistan, and today even you see our corrupt are corrupt because they want to be white, want to own mansions in England, USA, etc.
> 
> We did jump the boat the moment we were offered F-16s, like Pavlov's dogs. The other side of it is that we saw on the 27th how effective our F-16s were. What they could do. We shot down 8 aircraft without losing a single plane. And got a helicopter as a bonus own goal for the IAF. There is a high probability of a limited war within the next 5 years and the air force will play a pivotal role.
> 
> The air force needs F-16s. The tech is superior to the Chinese and Russian stuff out there. The kinematics are better than the JFT. We don't want to be another Iraq or Syria. And we can't fight effectively without these machines to provide top cover against Rafales, MKI and what not.
> 
> If we could get the F-35, we certainly would get it, but _this is the best we can get.
> _
> The other part of this equation is for the first time in a long time, we are making this deal as equals with the US, not as its henchman. Even Zia didn't have this, he literally handed photographs of our nuclear installations to the US, even though the ISI caught the spies red handed.
> 
> We do have to think bigger. In the time of Machiavelli, and later with the collapse of the Roman empire, it was the mercenary armies, and allied Germanic tribes that, while they initially worked for the Romans (like we did for the US), they increasingly gained in power and prestige until they had their own game going. Notice the Huns who ultimately became a major power by themselves.
> 
> Now, to do this, we have to take this kind of opportunities now, and look for other opportunities. We have to be like the Mamluks, and work our way upwards in the food chain. We have to think strategically and not, as you noted, continue with the slave mind. We have to stop continuing to be a colonial army and start thinking big. Thinking of how we can take advantage from the mess in the Middle East, In Iran, in Afghanistan. Howe we can act as a gateway to central asia, using the Chinese belt and road.
> 
> Howe we can make big deals with Turkey and Malaysia. How we can act like the mercenary armies of the time of Machiavelli who increasingly became a force unto themselves. In this way, we have to become a new and nascent Sparta.
> 
> As @MastanKhan noted, we have to see the silver lining in the dark clouds. Yemen could easily be a strategic gain for us, giving us control of the Strait of Hormuz. Essentially blocking the Indian Navy no matter how much bigger they are, we can sink their ships at will. Had we seen that vision earlier, today we would have had that silver lining from that cloud.
> 
> There are many more such opportunities, hanging there, waiting for us to have the vision to see them. And for that, as you so wisely noted, we need a new kind of mindset, that we lost during the 200 years of British and Sikh rule. Yet, I think the F-16s could be thought of as a useful step in the ladder for us in serving that same interest. Remember, the difference between a master and a slave is not that one is free of all economic wants, but one that can act upon his free will to take opportunities that he sees, and one that cannot, and sometimes does not even have the vision to see those opportunities.
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding is that the APG-80 is a full-spec AESA with the requisite cooling to get top performance from the GAA AESA radar. While the SABR uses GAN, a better technology, but is partially air-cooled, meaning it cannot get the max performance from the radar.
> 
> Cooling is a problem as it requires, power, space and weight. Which are in short supply as is. The SABR is a very flexible upgrade solution, as it can easily fit into the needs of the F-16 upgrade programs, but gains this flexibility at the tradeoff of max performance.



Very interesting Analysis... i am inclined towards your way of thinking, and having a plan behind it... do you believe Pakistani politicians and Fauj think this way ?

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## Armchair

maverick1977 said:


> Very interesting Analysis... i am inclined towards your way of thinking, and having a plan behind it... do you believe Pakistani politicians and Fauj think this way ?



I don't think the vast majority do. But IK seems to be on track with this paradigm of thought. Looat at his recent deals. There is a new generation of people who are thinking more and more along these lines. It will take time for them to achieve critical mass, like it took within PTI.

Incidentally, you'd be surprised at how many people in the military and PTI read defence.pk  so we too are having an impact. @MastanKhan is (in)famous in the GHQ and AHQ where many spend sleepless nights over his posts

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## MastanKhan

maverick1977 said:


> May be i am naive or out of place, my understanding is that Block 3 should be able to counter Rafael's with PL 15, new engines, with off bore PL ?? category, HMD, AESA and all? THat is a self reliant and " self respecting" program.
> 
> i can argue that there is nothing free in this world. when someone gives you things for free, you are obliged to do their bidding... that hurts your interests... history is ripe with such examples. ask for trade to be more self reliant, access to market, but then there are no free f16s. sorry, its a slave mindset. other be a khudaar qoum and say i will pay for it...
> 
> 
> 
> Very interesting Analysis... i am inclined towards your way of thinking, and having a plan behind it... do you believe Pakistani politicians and Fauj think this way ?



Hi,

" Khudaar quom " always dies a horrible death unless you become tactically PLIABLE---.

You are wrong about history---. The problem occurs because you did not negotiate your preferences ahead of time---.

One should never refuse the offer of FREE equipment---because in the end---the consequences would not be any different if you are not a strong nation---.

Just because you paid cash---does not mean you get a free hand---. You are still dependent for parts supply etc etc etc---.

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## M.Kamran_Pak

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


I hope this becomes reality.....
But isn't high time for Pakistan to negotiate long lasting peace in Afg? I hope rather than focus on military equipment the priority would be to protect our national interests.
Especially after CPEC the Integration of EuroAsia, revival of ancient silk road, connectivity of CA energy rich countries to energy needing countries (TAPI is just one example) Afghanistan is last hurdle.
Just imagine if there is long lasting peace in Afghanistan, there would be immense benefits for Pak economy and real chance for Pakistan's economic Independence and Inshallah become one of the world leading economies.
Than who would not want to sell us military equipment? Including US companies like LM, Boeing, Russians, Chinese.
Even we will become much more capable to produce our own defense needs.
With limited budget and no support from Western systems we have produced very capable fighter JF-17, and PAF is also working on project Azm.

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## Armchair

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *Wow*... 100 pages of #*KhafeeLeaks* ... and gangadeshis running around the D.C. circuit... like headless chickens..
> 
> Just imangine when the birds and multiroler of @Tps43 comes to PAF... how many suicides are going to happen...
> 
> Regradless, *#KhafeeLeaks* keeps on giving... *Fun this!*



Good luck to the Indians, after calling Trump a *liar*.

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## loanranger

Jokes of the month
Windjammer has been arrested by Airforce Intelligence. And now this...
@MastanKhan is (in)famous in the GHQ and AHQ where many spend sleepless nights over his posts.

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## Curious_Guy

oh my my read 100 plus pages, haven't done this before even on Pulwama thread. 
i hope what Khafee & Tps are saying are materialised soon.

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## alphapak

Keysersoze said:


> For 24 planes?



Pak can make a 100 brand new F16 block 70, India will most likely
order more Rafales. Plus PAF can phase out the old 1980's F16's 
and Mirages.

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## Tps43

I assume many lool


Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *Wow*... 100 pages of #*KhafeeLeaks* ... and gangadeshis running around the D.C. circuit... like headless chickens..
> 
> Just imangine when the birds and multiroler of @Tps43 comes to PAF... how many suicides are going to happen...
> 
> Regradless, *#KhafeeLeaks* keeps on giving... *Fun this!*





Curious_Guy said:


> oh my my read 100 plus pages, haven't done this before even on Pulwama thread.
> i hope what Khafee & Tps are saying are materialised soon.


Mine thing is all set nothing can stop it 



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Death to zalim mashrah


Margh bar zalim mashrah lool



Dil Pakistan said:


> @Khafee ; @Tps43 - I am making a wild guess.
> 
> Are the 24 used F-16 the UAE Block-60 upgraded to Block70/72 ??


Nopeeer

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## Armchair

loanranger said:


> Jokes of the month
> Windjammer has been arrested by Airforce Intelligence. And now this...
> @MastanKhan is (in)famous in the GHQ and AHQ where many spend sleepless nights over his posts.



I exaggerated the sleepless part to be fair. And I didn't make the claim of Windjammer being arrested, its on his thread, if you looke Windjammer made a thread, and someone made this claim there. Not sure if in jest or not.

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## Tps43

Tamiyah said:


> WoW. MashAllah we are about to hit 100 pages with utter garbage with no official confirmation or anything. Could our seniors please stop being a child.


My thing is correct ask air chief

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## Dazzler

Tps43 said:


> My thing is correct ask air chief



And that would be?

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## Tps43

Dazzler said:


> And that would be?


Is there any multi roler game changer thing other then aircarts coming in paf in big quantity

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## Dazzler

Tps43 said:


> Is there any multi roler game changer thing other then aircarts coming in paf in big quantity



@Khafee knows better.

Saadi ki majaal.

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## Tps43

Dazzler said:


> @Khafee knows better.
> 
> Saadi ki majaal.


Hmmm @Khafee daso enna no

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## YeBeWarned

@Tps43 bhai waise tu account logout ker dia tha, lakin is thread aur @Khafee ne kaha reconsider karo PDF chorne ka tu ab jab tak yeh sab cheezen confirm nai hoti mai login karun ga  Lakin post kam se kam karunga  

oh bhai Tps43 meri treat kahan hai ?

@Tps43 bhai waise tu account logout ker dia tha, lakin is thread aur @Khafee ne kaha reconsider karo PDF chorne ka tu ab jab tak yeh sab cheezen confirm nai hoti mai login karun ga  Lakin post kam se kam karunga  

oh bhai Tps43 meri treat kahan hai ?

@Tps43 bhai waise tu account logout ker dia tha, lakin is thread aur @Khafee ne kaha reconsider karo PDF chorne ka tu ab jab tak yeh sab cheezen confirm nai hoti mai login karun ga  Lakin post kam se kam karunga  

oh bhai Tps43 meri treat kahan hai ?

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## Tps43

Starlord said:


> @Tps43 bhai waise tu account logout ker dia tha, lakin is thread aur @Khafee ne kaha reconsider karo PDF chorne ka tu ab jab tak yeh sab cheezen confirm nai hoti mai login karun ga  Lakin post kam se kam karunga
> 
> oh bhai Tps43 meri treat kahan hai ?


Mein khud almost ta ta kar giya tha lakin koi nhi 


Apki treat sarakhon par app biryani tyar rakhein

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## YeBeWarned

Tps43 said:


> Mein khud almost ta ta kar giya tha lakin koi nhi
> 
> 
> Apki treat sarakhon par app biryani tyar rakhein



Bhai news hi kuch esi di apne .. Khanjer maar dia is bechare ke dil mai  

han aur begum ke liye McDonald Happy meal


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## niaz

BATMAN said:


> I think discussion is about the offer on table and positive response from US, which is indeed a development and i trust the fundamental difference is the Donald Trump him self.
> 
> If and when deal materialize, is something no one can promise.



Hon Batman,

After the $600-million tied up for umpteen years in the previous F-16 deal and the fact that Trump stoped the 12 AH1Z helo deliveries, can any third world country like Pakistan ever trust the US to deliver even after the deal has been signed & the money paid in advance?

I for one wouldn't. I would still buy US equipment if Pakistan needs it but something like the retired F-16s or C-130s, retired Artillery or retired Naval vessels because these are already manufactured and can be delivered in less than a year. But certainly not the ones with the long delivery period which goes beyond the current term of the incumbent President. IMHO, even that would a gamble because Trump has the habit of pulling out of agreed deals if he gets up on the wrong side of the bed.

Sorry but I am "Once bitten twice shy". Therefore I would go for the Chines or Russian 5th generation aircraft instead. These may not be as good but there is a good probability that once struck, the deal would be honored.

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## Cookie Monster

maverick1977 said:


> May be i am naive or out of place, my understanding is that Block 3 should be able to counter Rafael's with PL 15, new engines, with off bore PL ?? category, HMD, AESA and all? THat is a self reliant and " self respecting" program.
> 
> i can argue that there is nothing free in this world. when someone gives you things for free, you are obliged to do their bidding... that hurts your interests... history is ripe with such examples. ask for trade to be more self reliant, access to market, but then there are no free f16s. sorry, its a slave mindset. other be a khudaar qoum and say i will pay for it.


Generally that's how things go...ALL small states usually have to pick a side and operate within the sphere of influence of one major power or the other...at best they can hope to play different sides(world powers) to their advantage...but there's never an option where a small country gets to chart its own path independently.

When Russia was sitting in Afghanistan...would Pak have been able to kick them out without turning to US? Would Pak be able to fend off things like being blacklisted on FATF and other such things without the help of GCC, China, etc? So many times China has helped Pak with its veto. So many times Pak has been helped by KSA, UAE, Turkey, US, and others. In return it's natural that they expect something from Pak...which is what u r referring to as the COST.

If not these F16s then there will be some next thing where Pak will rely on some country X...and will eventually have to pay for it whether monetarily or through other means. That IS the reality and it's not going to change anytime soon...there is no scenario where Pak can chart its own independent path.
Instead ur concern should be about how Pak plays its cards...and not get used and discarded like last time(after USSR's defeat in Afghanistan and the sanctions that followed). Pak should learn from that and build more comprehensive long lasting relationships that continue the give and take relationship rather than a one night stand.

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## undercover JIX

@Khafee @Tps43 I am almost sure both of you know famous Mr. KK especially if you are/were related to acquisitions, upgrades, supplies mostly from Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, somewhat LM and not to forget CASA.....


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## Gripen9

Inshallah leaving for hajj tomorrow. 
Will especially pray as to what @Khafee and @Tps43 are alluding to come true!!
May Allah bless our armed forces and make us a better nation.

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## airmarshal

Oh ok! It could be an equivalent of S-400 then? To show India a middle finger and to prove Russians that THAAD is better than their system, USA might pitch in an air defense system to Pakistan. Not F-16s may be @Khafee 

Khafee in Arabic I think means hidden. So this news is so hidden from everyone except @Khafee

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## mingle

airmarshal said:


> Oh ok! It could be an equivalent of S-400 then? To show India a middle finger and to prove Russians that THAAD is better than their system, USA might pitch in an air defense system to Pakistan. Not F-16s may be @Khafee
> 
> Khafee in Arabic I think means hidden. So this news is so hidden from everyone except @Khafee


If they selling Us THAAD then we should grab more F16 too there many used F16 available now we should try to grab it as many we can would be nice THAAD against S400

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## F86 Saber

Flight of falcon said:


> This headline says it all:
> 
> 
> *India Conveys 'Grave Concern' to US over Military Assistance to Pakistan, Sale of F-16 Fighter Jets*
> 
> 
> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.new...-military-assistance-to-pakistan-2254813.html



But why are they concerned?? Didn't they shot down one of our Block 52's with a third generation MIG-21?

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## mingle

F86 Saber said:


> But why are they concerned?? Didn't they shot down one of our Block 52's with a third generation MIG-21?


Plus why Americans s listen them???

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## Ultima Thule

Khafee said:


> Hence why they are called tin cans.





Khafee said:


> Tin Cans


This is tin cans @Khafee sir

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## GriffinsRule

Tps43 said:


> Solve this Mystry



If it's defensive in nature, then it's a radar to detect low level flying objects and perhaps associated missie system to shoot stuff down.
Or maybe a new ARM to arm our jets with?

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## maverick1977

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> " Khudaar quom " always dies a horrible death unless you become tactically PLIABLE---.
> 
> You are wrong about history---. The problem occurs because you did not negotiate your preferences ahead of time---.
> 
> One should never refuse the offer of FREE equipment---because in the end---the consequences would not be any different if you are not a strong nation---.
> 
> Just because you paid cash---does not mean you get a free hand---. You are still dependent for parts supply etc etc etc---.




I haven’t seen Iran dying yet ... they are too extreme anyways...

If block 3 will have an edge over f16s block 60s then Pakistan should make sure to move forward with it.. may be instead of f16s ask for radar transfer tech or engine transfer tech ... or ECM transfer tech .. why not make block 3 a great success ? 
Ask for access to market, ask for access to higher ed quota ??? Ask for transportation tech transfer, or high grade composites ... 
Ask for high yield agricultural presence.. ask for Microsoft Cisco, google , amazon to open a campus ?? That will entrench America as a long term ally .. why not be a visionary instead of being stuck with F16s... that’s all can we think ?


----------



## MastanKhan

maverick1977 said:


> I haven’t seen Iran dying yet ... they are too extreme anyways...



Hi,

Nations don't die like people---. Nations go thru painful death throes---.

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## MystryMan

Tps43 said:


> Is there any multi roler game changer thing other then aircarts coming in paf in *big quantity*


hmm....

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## mingle

MystryMan said:


> hmm....


@MystryMan what it should be?? Larg number must be missles

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## MystryMan

mingle said:


> @MystryMan what it should be?? Larg number must be missles


Maybe some AGM/AShM.


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## Avicenna

MystryMan said:


> Maybe some AGM/AShM.



Multirole/Multipurpose

Not an aircraft.

"Game changer"

?

Perhaps its not a munition or platform but related to situational awareness or communications?

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## mingle

MystryMan said:


> Maybe some AGM/AShM.


No I believe it's system equivalent to S400 may be PAC 3 or THAAD

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## aliyusuf

Could be that TPS-77 MRR mated with some Missile System coming in large numbers.

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## MystryMan

mingle said:


> No I believe it's system equivalent to S400 may be PAC 3 or THAAD


maybe PAC-3 if from US. So HQ-9 not in favor anymore? For SAM we should be going Euro/Turk or Chinese way.

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## mingle

MystryMan said:


> maybe PAC-3 if from US. So HQ-9 not in favor anymore? For SAM we should be going Euro/Turk or Chinese way.


American system are the best and cutting edge we can mix it with HQ-9 like we do with MD range Chinese and EU systems
Also one thing if US offer Pak whole air defence and F16s that would be best punishment for Modi and company



aliyusuf said:


> Could be that TPS-77 MRR mated with some Missile System coming in large numbers.


Along Blk 72 real punishment for india from US for S400 and MRCA purchase.

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## gangsta_rap

I can't believe this silly rumor got so much traction

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## Khafee

Tps43 said:


> Hmmm @Khafee daso enna no


*#Khafee Leaks 3*

TPS77 MRR

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## Pakhtoon yum

Khafee said:


> *#Khafee Leaks 3*
> 
> TPS77 MRR


Will there be a fourth?

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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> *#Khafee Leaks 3*
> 
> TPS77 MRR


mashallah

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## Signalian

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Associated Weapons and support package ?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Khafee said:


> *#Khafee Leaks 3*
> 
> TPS77 MRR


Plz tell about AIM120Ds and P3C Orions upgrade

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## Khafee

Pakhtoon yum said:


> Will there be a fourth?


There is one more - I'm just contemplating, what to do.



Signalian said:


> Associated Weapons and support package ?





Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Plz tell about AIM120Ds and P3C Orions upgrade


All in good time IA.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> *#Khafee Leaks 3*
> 
> TPS77 MRR


sir God bless you for this amazing news. @Khafee leaks are the only leaks which gives us happiness and excitement

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## waq

And the winner of this guessing game is Mr. @Bratva.

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## cloud4000

If Pakistan is expecting new equipment from US, it better get its lobbying effort a kickstart, especially with Congress, who will be the ultimate arbiter on what Pakistan gets or does not get. 

Trump can promise Pakistan the world, but only if Congress agrees with him, which is questionable given that the House of Representatives is controlled by Democrats, who all hate him.

Nothing will happen until CSF is restored. How much of it will be restored will also depend on Congress. The $9 billion mentioned on PDF is way too high. 

Interesting thread, nevertheless, but there's a lot of steps needed before it comes to fruition.

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## Ultima Thule

waq said:


> And the winner of this guessing game is Mr. @Bratva.


This new will be true this news comes from Professional member, who has inside information @waq



cloud4000 said:


> If Pakistan is expecting new equipment from US, it better get its lobbying effort a kickstart, especially with Congress, who will be the ultimate arbiter on what Pakistan gets or does not get.
> 
> Trump can promise Pakistan the world, but only if Congress agrees with him, which is questionable given that the House of Representatives is controlled by Democrats, who all hate him.
> 
> Nothing will happen until CSF is restored. How much of it will be restored will also depend on Congress. The $9 billion mentioned on PDF is way too high.
> 
> Interesting thread, nevertheless, but there's a lot of steps needed before it comes to fruition.


Why you concern, its not your (Indian) concern, its comes from professional member who has a inside information @cloud4000

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## Khafee

cloud4000 said:


> If Pakistan is expecting new equipment from US, it better get its lobbying effort a kickstart, especially with Congress, who will be the ultimate arbiter on what Pakistan gets or does not get.
> 
> Trump can promise Pakistan the world, but only if Congress agrees with him, which is questionable given that the House of Representatives is controlled by Democrats, who all hate him.
> 
> Nothing will happen until CSF is restored. How much of it will be restored will also depend on Congress. The $9 billion mentioned on PDF is way too high.
> 
> Interesting thread, nevertheless, but there's a lot of steps needed before it comes to fruition.


#dehati aurat ka rona

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## Maxpane

aliyusuf said:


> Could be that TPS-77 MRR mated with some Missile System coming in large numbers.


give this guy a positive rating

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## Khafee

Spectre said:


> Lol High on your own supply


*Indian defence team in US, to hold defence and military dialogue*
August 1, 2019

A top-level Indian delegation headed by Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra reached Washington on Thursday and is expected to discuss military relations between the two countries. _India is expected to raise objection over the proposed sale and assistance to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 fighter aircraft fleet._
_(excerpt above, details in link below)_

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ence-and-military-dialogue-1576254-2019-08-01

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## Pakistani Fighter

Khafee said:


> #dehati aurat ka rona


What was ur 2nd leak?

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What was ur 2nd leak?


TPS-77MMR radar @Syed Hammad Ahmed

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## maverick1977

cloud4000 said:


> If Pakistan is expecting new equipment from US, it better get its lobbying effort a kickstart, especially with Congress, who will be the ultimate arbiter on what Pakistan gets or does not get.
> 
> Trump can promise Pakistan the world, but only if Congress agrees with him, which is questionable given that the House of Representatives is controlled by Democrats, who all hate him.
> 
> Nothing will happen until CSF is restored. How much of it will be restored will also depend on Congress. The $9 billion mentioned on PDF is way too high.
> 
> Interesting thread, nevertheless, but there's a lot of steps needed before it comes to fruition.




The president has a veto power... ouch !!!

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## Pakistani Fighter

pakistanipower said:


> TPS-77MMR radar @Syed Hammad Ahmed


That is 3rd leak.



Khafee said:


> *#Khafee Leaks 3*
> 
> TPS77 MRR


.

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## Khafee

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What was ur 2nd leak?


12 Zulus 



maverick1977 said:


> The president has a veto power... ouch !!!


And they have officially called him a liar.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Khafee said:


> 0 (+/-) 2nd hand vipers


So new 18-24 F16 blk 72 + All F 16 to be upgraded to V upgrade and then 20(+-) used Vipers. That means vipers are going to be 100+

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## maverick1977

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So 18-24 F16 blk 72+ All F 16 to be upgraded to V upgrade and then 20(+-) used Vipers. That means vipers are going to be 100+



Is V equal to 72+ plus standard or 60 block standard ? What’s the difference between the two ?


----------



## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So 18-24 F16 blk 72+ All F 16 to be upgraded to V upgrade and then 20(+-) used Vipers. That means vipers are going to be 100+


120+ F-16 equipped with AESA/latest avionics @Syed Hammad Ahmed

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## Khafee

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So new 18-24 F16 blk 72 + All F 16 to be upgraded to V upgrade and then 20(+-) used Vipers. That means vipers are going to be 100+





maverick1977 said:


> Is V equal to 72+ plus standard or 60 block standard ? What’s the difference between the two ?



https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-79#post-11660356

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## Pakistani Fighter

pakistanipower said:


> 120+ F-16 equipped with AESA/latest avionics @Syed Hammad Ahmed


And AIM 120Ds?

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> And AIM 120Ds?


May be possible but not confirmed as per @Khafee @Syed Hammad Ahmed

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## Basel

kaif786 said:


> yes F-16 block 72 can be mated with refuelers and then Aim-120D and Aim-9X wil be even betetr wowow



If Pakistan get what is discussed here then IAF will need to get 5th gen ASAP because it will nullify the advantage Rafael add to IAF.



Khafee said:


> Erieye ER is already there, and in good numbers. It is one of THE best out there.
> 
> IFR - What is missing is a boom. The other way around this obstacle, is CFT's equipped with a probe.
> 
> 
> I didn't know you get divine revelations.
> 
> Khafee did not make any case. He informed the forum what he found out through official channels.



Is it possible PAF may also upgrade its AWACS capacity like Erieye to Global Eye??

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## maverick1977

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/cont.../aero/documents/F-16/F-16V-Geece-Exec-Sum.pdf


----------



## thepakistani

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> So new 18-24 F16 blk 72 + All F 16 to be upgraded to V upgrade and then 20(+-) used Vipers. That means vipers are going to be 100+



So USA is giving “Ount kay mounh main chara”

Pakistan gave new life to USA by
1. Closing Kikra 1 saying oil was present, but now not present 
2. Sabotaging CPEC
3. Entrapping back Pakistan in USA jaws 
4. Putting Great Pakistani nation in IMF claws 

All these happened are dreadful for China Pakistan Russia but new life for dying USA

So even 100 block 70 is very small thing

Polar world was tilting against USA, is thrown back in USA lap

Dear fellows Pakistan is the Pivot of bipolar world


----------



## Reichsmarschall

Khafee said:


> I didn't know you get divine revelations.


lol this was harsh

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## Riz

Khafee said:


> *#Khafee Leaks 3*
> 
> TPS77 MRR


Where is khafee leak 2???

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Tps43 said:


> Mine thing is all set nothing can stop it


While you are at it also deal for PW F-110 engines production in Pakistan.
These would increase sale potential of JF-15 block 3 to western counties along with GCE countries.



aliyusuf said:


> Could be that TPS-77 MRR mated with some Missile System coming in large numbers.





Khafee said:


> There is one more - I'm just contemplating, what to do.


This is indication that PAF will be getting some LIFT aircraft as well. Most likely they would be LM T-50FA. A very potent and effective solution towards self defence capability.


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## Ultima Thule

Riz said:


> Where is khafee leak 2???


Khafee LEAKS #2 

20(+-) AH-1Z viper @Riz

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## Riz

pakistanipower said:


> Khafee LEAKS #2
> 
> 20(+-) AH-1Z viper @Riz


Thanks bro

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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakistanipower said:


> Khafee LEAKS #2
> 
> 20(+-) AH-1Z viper @Riz


12 Zulu rest will be AH-1W that will be upgraded later. These are available in AMRAC.

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## araz

Khafee said:


> *#Khafee Leaks 3*
> 
> TPS77 MRR


I did mention MPDRs which are a long term need of PAF. So if true a good acquisition. One which might escape under the radar of various sleuths being a DEFENSIVE item.
A

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## aliyusuf

For the benefit of all who don't want to go back and re-read 100+ pages, I am stating the separate tranches of @Khafee 's revelations for the rest of us ...

*#Khafee Leaks 1*
18-24 new F-16 Block-72 & Upgrade of existing F-16s to F-16V standard
The Bell AH-1Z Viper (Zulu) will also be coming

*#Khafee Leaks 2*
20(approx) used additional F-16s to be acquired and upgraded to F-16V standards
This will extend the F-16 fleet to 120 birds

*#Khafee Leaks 3 (Equal courtesy rights to *@Tps43 *& Special Thanks to* @Bratva *for figuring out the riddle)*
TPS-77 MRR mated with a missile system (in large numbers)

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## Pakistani Fighter

aliyusuf said:


> For the benefit of all who don't want to go back and re-read 100+ pages, I am stating the separate tranches of @Khafee 's revelations for the rest of us ...
> 
> *#Khafee Leaks 1*
> 18-24 new F-16 Block-72 & Upgrade of existing F-16s to F-16V standard
> The Bell AH-1Z Viper (Zulu) will also be coming
> 
> *#Khafee Leaks 2*
> 20(approx) used additional F-16s to be acquired and upgraded to F-16V standards
> This will extend the F-16 fleet to 120 birds
> 
> *#Khafee Leaks 3 (Equal courtesy rights to *@Tps43 *& Special Thanks to* @Bratva *for figuring out the riddle)*
> TPS-77 MRR mated with a missile system (in large numbers)


It has stated range of 463km. Which missile can be used for it?

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## aliyusuf

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> It has stated range of 463km. Which missile can be used for it?


Have not been able to figure out yet.

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## Basel

araz said:


> I did mention MPDRs which are a long term need of PAF. So if true a good acquisition. One which might escape under the radar of various sleuths being a DEFENSIVE item.
> A



Is it TPS-77 we already have or a different version??

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## Trango Towers

M.Kamran_Pak said:


> I hope this becomes reality.....
> But isn't high time for Pakistan to negotiate long lasting peace in Afg? I hope rather than focus on military equipment the priority would be to protect our national interests.
> Especially after CPEC the Integration of EuroAsia, revival of ancient silk road, connectivity of CA energy rich countries to energy needing countries (TAPI is just one example) Afghanistan is last hurdle.
> Just imagine if there is long lasting peace in Afghanistan, there would be immense benefits for Pak economy and real chance for Pakistan's economic Independence and Inshallah become one of the world leading economies.
> Than who would not want to sell us military equipment? Including US companies like LM, Boeing, Russians, Chinese.
> Even we will become much more capable to produce our own defense needs.
> With limited budget and no support from Western systems we have produced very capable fighter JF-17, and PAF is also working on project Azm.


Peace comes through strength. Wars only happen when the strong know they can beat up the weak. Even in a kids playground if the bully knows he will get hut back he thinks twice. I also want peace in Afghanistan as its people have suffered much but that won't happen unless we are strong. Same applies to india. Remember feb 26/27. They believed they were strong and started. When they got hit hard they thought twice and there was peace

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## Ultima Thule

Basel said:


> Is it TPS-77 we already have or a different version??


I think it is upgraded system @Basel sir


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## aliyusuf

Basel said:


> Is it TPS-77 we already have or a different version??


It's a new version.

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## NA71

thepakistani said:


> So USA is giving “Ount kay mounh main chara”
> 
> Pakistan gave new life to USA by
> 1. Closing Kikra 1 saying oil was present, but now not present
> 2. Sabotaging CPEC
> 3. Entrapping back Pakistan in USA jaws
> 4. Putting Great Pakistani nation in IMF claws
> 
> All these happened are dreadful for China Pakistan Russia but new life for dying USA
> 
> So even 100 block 70 is very small thing
> 
> Polar world was tilting against USA, is thrown back in USA lap
> 
> Dear fellows Pakistan is the Pivot of bipolar world



100% agreed....and look how happy we are with just an unconfirmed report of few blk 70s.....

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## Basel

aliyusuf said:


> It's a new version.



What improvement it offer over our TPS-77? A SAM should also be integrated with those.


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## aliyusuf

Basel said:


> What improvement it offer over our TPS-77? A SAM should also be integrated with those.


I think that is the idea and it's design facilitates multi-role configuration. It has very decent detection range with very low power requirements. More portable and mobile than other TPS variants. Rest you can google from Lockheed Martin.


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## Basel

aliyusuf said:


> I think that is the idea and it's design facilitates multi-role configuration. It has very decent detection range with very low power requirements. More portable and mobile than other TPS variants. Rest you can google from Lockheed Martin.



But only US or western SAM / air defense directly can be integrated with this system and what options available for that??

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## Maxpane

thepakistani said:


> So USA is giving “Ount kay mounh main chara”
> 
> Pakistan gave new life to USA by
> 1. Closing Kikra 1 saying oil was present, but now not present
> 2. Sabotaging CPEC
> 3. Entrapping back Pakistan in USA jaws
> 4. Putting Great Pakistani nation in IMF claws
> 
> All these happened are dreadful for China Pakistan Russia but new life for dying USA
> 
> So even 100 block 70 is very small thing
> 
> Polar world was tilting against USA, is thrown back in USA lap
> 
> Dear fellows Pakistan is the Pivot of bipolar world


am sorry sir i disagree with your views
1 there is oil in kekra more than mascat as @Khafee sir tells
2 No one is going to sabotage Cpec as it going on smoothly
3 Pakistan is not tilted towards USA . For the first time in history Pakistan is trying to build balance relationship with USA and China
4 IMF was the need of the time and with out IMF deal no other financing institution would give us finanace to deal with the problem .
120 f 16 with block 72 upgradation is a huge jump . if you dnt value them than just ask indian air force .
F 16 is proven air craft and our pilots have flying experienc and it would surely increase Paf capability .
it would fill gap and with in no time we can have potent air force .

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## aliyusuf

Basel said:


> But only US or western SAM / air defense directly can be integrated with this system and what options available for that??


Still searching on that. Maybe @Khafee and/or @Tps43 can share more information on that?


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## MystryMan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 12 Zulu rest will be AH-1W that will be upgraded later. These are available in AMRAC.


The original deal of 2015 had 15 AH-1Z.

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## NA71

Maxpane said:


> am sorry sir i disagree with your views
> 1 there is oil in kekra more than mascat as @Khafee sir tells
> 2 No one is going to sabotage Cpec as it going on smoothly
> 3 Pakistan is not tilted towards USA . For the first time in history Pakistan is trying to build balance relationship with USA and China
> 4 IMF was the need of the time and with out IMF deal no other financing institution would give us finanace to deal with the problem .
> 120 f 16 with block 72 upgradation is a huge jump . if you dnt value them than just ask indian air force .
> F 16 is proven air craft and our pilots have flying experienc and it would surely increase Paf capability .
> it would fill gap and with in no time we can have potent air force .



Sir, also shed some light on ....how all of sudden USA is doing all these favors ? Its not just Afghanistan issue.

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## aliyusuf

NA71 said:


> Sir, also shed some light on ....how all of sudden USA is doing all these favors ? Its not just Afghanistan issue.


Kindly read this post from @Khafee that he posted in the initial pages of this thread ...
Link

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## araz

thepakistani said:


> So USA is giving “Ount kay mounh main chara”
> 
> Pakistan gave new life to USA by
> 1. Closing Kikra 1 saying oil was present, but now not present
> 2. Sabotaging CPEC
> 3. Entrapping back Pakistan in USA jaws
> 4. Putting Great Pakistani nation in IMF claws
> 
> All these happened are dreadful for China Pakistan Russia but new life for dying USA
> 
> So even 100 block 70 is very small thing
> 
> Polar world was tilting against USA, is thrown back in USA lap
> 
> Dear fellows Pakistan is the Pivot of bipolar world


Please understand that Pakistan's interests with regards to CPEC are nonnegotiable and will be persued irrespective of US aid or any other cajoling. The US industrialists could be asked to join in but CPEC continues at all cost. The rest are minor niggles. 
You also need to understand that the armed forces of Pakistan are not your enemy. Whatever they have done with the support of the agovernment so far seems to be working in the right direction. Your post suggests misgivings whi h are unjustified.
A



aliyusuf said:


> Have not been able to figure out yet.


I dont think qe will be getting missiles from US. We will mate it within our existing system and possibly get HQ16 Bs as they become available initially. 
A

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## zulu

Akhir bata hi diyaa.aab defence ministry waly tumhain dhoond rahy hn gy 


Khafee said:


> *#Khafee Leaks 3*
> 
> TPS77 MRR


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## Pakistani Fighter

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 12 Zulu rest will be AH-1W that will be upgraded later. These are available in AMRAC.


AH 1W Super Cobras will be given and then upgraded to AH 1Z?


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## Trango Towers

Has anyone even considered that even if we order the f16 block 70V. They can be embargoed before delivery and delivery may be 5 years from now and USA Pakistan relations are like the British weather.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

MystryMan said:


> The original deal of 2015 had 15 AH-1Z.


Yes. Unfortunately Obama only authorised payment of 12. These were produced and now in storage, so PAA can in theory ask US NAVY birds as they are in the same configuration but will be willing to give there is another question. Remember Obama had allowed for export of original F-16's ordered by PAF but 12 of them were in active service with the US armed forces who refused to send them hence the procurement from Jordan went a head.

The link below states that 65 AH-1W Super Cobra are stored currently the latest delivered on 27 June 2019. These are easily available so can be delivered immediately once Trump gives the go ahead. These are not much different to the Zulu hence they can easily be upgraded.
http://amarcexperience.com/ui/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30&Itemid=220

The only thing is that Pakistan Army may cancel the ATAK-129 deal if USA provides the required numbers.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> AH 1W Super Cobras will be given and then upgraded to AH 1Z?

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## Humble Analyst

araz said:


> I hate to throw a spanner in the works. I think we have no reason to disbelieve @Khafee, however the news is a single man's account and the finances and other nitty gritties will need to be sorted out. The former are a huge challange to us at this point.
> I dont think we will have upgrade of radar and other equipment fleet wide as the cost will shoot through the roof. I still think a better approach might be to get some new 16s and if possible older block 32/42s and upgrade those as well as our newer 52s to V standard. The radars from 52s could go down to the ADF fighters. If structural upgrade is available for A&Bs it should be strongly considered although when this occurs needs to be considered. For Example if we have 2000 hours on a plane will a structural upgrade allow us to extend it to 6000 hrs or only 4000hrs. So do we waste money by asking for structural upgrade earlier?
> It maybe a more prudent approach. We do not want fleet wide upgarde barring structural one as most of our fleet of A&Bs is getting upto 40 years old. However the OCUs have a lot of aur frame life left on them.
> A


F16 were designed for 8000 hours. With structural upgrades the life can be extended to 12000 hours. Additional 4000 means about 12 to 15 years so this can be weighed in cost benefit analysis.

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## Humble Analyst

Pakhtoon yum said:


> The helicopters...


It is let us see air defence missiles batteries



Trango Towers said:


> Has anyone even considered that even if we order the f16 block 70V. They can be embargoed before delivery and delivery may be 5 years from now and USA Pakistan relations are like the British weather.


Well if Pak is getting this many F16 there is going to be long term commitment from both sides. Question is what will be the reaction from people of Pakistan about Pak commitments? What will be those commitments? Anything related to Israel?

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## YeBeWarned

Some people don't realize that these Radars ( Khafee Leaks #3 ) are more important to PAF/Pakistan than F-16/Zulu's .

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## Humble Analyst

thepakistani said:


> So USA is giving “Ount kay mounh main chara”
> 
> Pakistan gave new life to USA by
> 1. Closing Kikra 1 saying oil was present, but now not present
> 2. Sabotaging CPEC
> 3. Entrapping back Pakistan in USA jaws
> 4. Putting Great Pakistani nation in IMF claws
> 
> All these happened are dreadful for China Pakistan Russia but new life for dying USA
> 
> So even 100 block 70 is very small thing
> 
> Polar world was tilting against USA, is thrown back in USA lap
> 
> Dear fellows Pakistan is the Pivot of bipolar world


We must think what are the terms of CPEC and how they benefit Pakistan. If the loan and tariffs rate do not help Pakistan then what? On the other hand I do not think Pakistan will sacrifice her relations for some F16 with China, unless China is doing something which is against Pakistani interests. Pakistani is in an economic crunch and China has no plans for giving long term soft loans as it appears.If China wanted to they would have done. But everybody watches their interests first and Chinese are more in the mode of taking than giving and this is my personal opinion.
Guess what options are left then in this time of crunch?
What Pakistan will offer to US which are attractive to US? There are three offers Pak provide.
1-Afghan peace deal
2-Some recognition to Israel with concessions for Palestine in exchange of
3-Give up nukes
Number 3 is a no no, number 2 if handled smartly but opposition will exploit people for uprising. However if Pakistani people are smart it can be used for helping Palestine cause.
Number 1 is a go

We gave China a port and a lot of land let us see if we can benefit out of it or it was a bad financial deal?
REMEMBER NOTHING IS FREE NOT EVEN FROM CHINA.


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## Pakhtoon yum

Khafee said:


> There is one more - I'm just contemplating, what to do.
> 
> 
> 
> All in good time IA.


Ohhh....is it big?

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## mingle

Starlord said:


> Some people don't realize that these Radars ( Khafee Leaks #3 ) are more important to PAF/Pakistan than F-16/Zulu's .


Beacuse they don't fly

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## YeBeWarned

mingle said:


> Beacuse they don't fly



Because they don't let Enemy fly with peace .

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## Khafee

zulu said:


> Akhir bata hi diyaa.aab defence ministry waly tumhain dhoond rahy hn gy


They know my exact location

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> *#Khafee Leaks 3*
> 
> TPS77 MRR


Any high attitude long range system for Pak?? Now I know why Air Cheif met with Khan 7 times before visit

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## YeBeWarned

Khafee said:


> They know my exact location



Saare Jahan ko tera pata hai 
bas hum hi ghafil the tere wajood se

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## Humble Analyst

Starlord said:


> Some people don't realize that these Radars ( Khafee Leaks #3 ) are more important to PAF/Pakistan than F-16/Zulu's .


Sorry I missed it what are those radars?

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## MystryMan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The only thing is that Pakistan Army may cancel the ATAK-129 deal if USA provides the required numbers.


I think we will pursue T-129 so as not to become fully dependent on US. Just like JF-17 and F-16 combo. Also with Truks we may get some ToT and freedom of customizations like JF-17.

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## Khafee

Humble Analyst said:


> Sorry I missed it what are those radars?


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-105#post-11666435

TPS77 MRR



mingle said:


> Any high attitude long range system for Pak?? Now I know why Air Cheif met with Khan 7 times before visit


IA

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## mingle

MystryMan said:


> I think we will pursue T-129 so as not to become fully dependent on US. Just like JF-17 and F-16 combo. Also with Truks we may get some ToT and freedom of customizations like JF-17.


It we replace our older cobras with AH1w and upgrade them to z level along new cobras would be fantastic yes along ATAK 100plus gunships r awesome fire power

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## zulu

Yah and they fueling the missile in case of #khafeeleaks 4........









Khafee said:


> They know my exact location

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## mingle

Basel said:


> But only US or western SAM / air defense directly can be integrated with this system and what options available for that??


PAC 3 or THAAD



mingle said:


> PAC 3 or THAAD


It would be one big military package that Pak will get after yrs from US.

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## Flight of falcon

If Khafee leaks are true then we can say good bye to ATAK.... Americans will probably offer us store airframes to make sure we back away from Turkish purchase. There is no one to blame for this than the Turkish President and his policies . They are suicidal to say the least for his own defence industry. We can easily save 1.5 billion dollars and get upgraded super cobras which will more than match any capability from the Turkish copter.

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## zulu

Dont call it that Sir they gonna think about our ICBM.Just today they were crying Pakistan named all its missiles on indian sub continent conquerors names.If i rem correctly Taimur also reached till Dehli but than have to retreat due to some epidemic in his forces
QUOTE="Mangus Ortus Novem, post: 11667055, member: 10119"]*#KhafeeLeaks4 = Timur Lang*[/QUOTE]

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## Riz

mingle said:


> It would be one big military package that Pak will get after yrs from US.


If we play our cards well & if we can manage 10 billions dollars.. We can even get F-35 in current situation

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## MystryMan

mingle said:


> PAC 3 or THAAD
> 
> 
> It would be one big military package that Pak will get after yrs from US.


Saudis are using which system to intercept projectiles fired from Yemen? is it PAC-2 or -3?


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## Tamiyah

MystryMan said:


> Saudis are using which system to intercept projectiles fired from Yemen? is it PAC-2 or -3?


Jo bhi hai SAUDI hai hi nikame. They have about the newest technology but they don't know how to use it properly. That is the point. PAF doesn't have the newest technology but they are skilled with it. Saudis only try to intercept but they can't it is true that Money cant buy everything. One more thing I wanna tell you that Saudi appoint ex-PAF officer for them selves because they know they don't have any skill except MONEY. If you feel this is irrelevant please donot hesitate to remove this.


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## Code_Geass

Youbare stating a well known fact that saudi lack skills..


Tamiyah said:


> Jo bhi hai SAUDI hai hi nikame. They have about the newest technology but they don't know how to use it properly. That is the point. PAF doesn't have the newest technology but they are skilled with it. Saudis only try to intercept but they can't it is true that Money cant buy everything. One more thing I wanna tell you that Saudi appoint ex-PAF officer for them selves because they know they don't have any skill except MONEY. If you feel this is irrelevant please donot hesitate to remove this.

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## mingle

MystryMan said:


> Saudis are using which system to intercept projectiles fired from Yemen? is it PAC-2 or -3?


PAC 3



Flight of falcon said:


> If Khafee leaks are true then we can say good bye to ATAK.... Americans will probably offer us store airframes to make sure we back away from Turkish purchase. There is no one to blame for this than the Turkish President and his policies . They are suicidal to say the least for his own defence industry. We can easily save 1.5 billion dollars and get upgraded super cobras which will more than match any capability from the Turkish copter.


I think turkey and US relations S400 is just a irritant not a big hurdle we should try to get ATAK they r very good at high attitude deal is done we will get them too along AH1w remember we have AH1F too they r old needs retirement

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## mingle

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *#KhafeeLeaks4 = Timur Lang*


No no think it's link with TPS 77 mean Missles system let's see if we get PAC3 or not

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## NA71

aliyusuf said:


> Kindly read this post from @Khafee that he posted in the initial pages of this thread ...
> Link


 Oh ...thank you bro.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

MystryMan said:


> I think we will pursue T-129 so as not to become fully dependent on US. Just like JF-17 and F-16 combo. Also with Truks we may get some ToT and freedom of customizations like JF-17.


The issue with ATAK T-129 is that it uses the same engine as the AH-1Z hence it was a very wise purchase at that time. ATAK offered PAC to start its own helicopter industry hence initially only 30 were ordered with a hope of having an other 60-70 that would have been make in PAC. Also it was hoped that PAC could find other orders over the years and that would make it easier to upgrade and continue with the production line. A very cost effective product could have been achieved. 

Still ATAK T129 BlockII the heavier version could be preferred over the Z-10 provided Turkey is able to produce a trustable engine locally. Remember that India has purchased Apache which need to be countered. 

The blunder with Turkey is that they have an impulsive President. Otherwise the Turkish F-35's would have been delivered. 
IMO Pakistan should play a waiting game for the time in regards to Turkish Products. 

However with the present situation USA is not going to allow any other country to sell their arms rather would go to great lengths in providing their own technology. This is why Trump is trying to find ways in which US arms can be sold which are produced mostly in USA not abroad. Lockheed Martin has tried its level best to provide solution to its failed F-35 project but the DOD wants to sustain this project as it has poured too much of the public funds and they can not reopen production of F22 again.

If India would have continued with the T-50 project with Russia then PAF would have been getting the F-35 by now. 

IMO Pakistan should try to acquire engine manufacturing capability in regards to both F-16 and AH-1Z so that PAF can have expertise and self reliance.
PAF should also now consider the T-50FA as first choice for LIFT along with its GE-404 engine manufacturing setup. 



mingle said:


> It we replace our older cobras with AH1w and upgrade them to z level along new cobras would be fantastic yes along ATAK 100plus gunships r awesome fire power


Please read the above reply..



Flight of falcon said:


> If Khafee leaks are true then we can say good bye to ATAK.... Americans will probably offer us store airframes to make sure we back away from Turkish purchase. There is no one to blame for this than the Turkish President and his policies . They are suicidal to say the least for his own defence industry. We can easily save 1.5 billion dollars and get upgraded super cobras which will more than match any capability from the Turkish copter.


Please read my above reply..

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## mingle

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The issue with ATAK T-129 is that it uses the same engine as the AH-1Z hence it was a very wise purchase at that time. ATAK offered PAC to start its own helicopter industry hence initially only 30 were ordered with a hope of having an other 60-70 that would have been make in PAC. Also it was hoped that PAC could find other orders over the years and that would make it easier to upgrade and continue with the production line. A very cost effective product could have been achieved.
> 
> Still ATAK T129 BlockII the heavier version could be preferred over the Z-10 provided Turkey is able to produce a trustable engine locally. Remember that India has purchased Apache which need to be countered.
> 
> The blunder with Turkey is that they have an impulsive President. Otherwise the Turkish F-35's would have been delivered.
> IMO Pakistan should play a waiting game for the time in regards to Turkish Products.
> 
> However with the present situation USA is not going to allow any other country to sell their arms rather would go to great lengths in providing their own technology. This is why Trump is trying to find ways in which US arms can be sold which are produced mostly in USA not abroad. Lockheed Martin has tried its level best to provide solution to its failed F-35 project but the DOD wants to sustain this project as it has poured too much of the public funds and they can not reopen production of F22 again.
> 
> If India would have continued with the T-50 project with Russia then PAF would have been getting the F-35 by now.
> 
> IMO Pakistan should try to acquire engine manufacturing capability in regards to both F-16 and AH-1Z so that PAF can have expertise and self reliance.
> PAF should also now consider the T-50FA as first choice for LIFT along with its GE-404 engine manufacturing setup.
> 
> 
> Please read the above reply..
> 
> 
> Please read my above reply..


It is possible that instead of ATAK US offered AH1w and upgrade them to Z level. I know American tricks they always use that stop others to offer theior products. There 65 Ah1wof them at bone yard get all them and upgrade toZ.


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## dBSPL

With all due respect, I would like to remind you that all these defense cooperation between Pakistan and Turkey, not just a shopping.

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## mingle

Riz said:


> If we play our cards well & if we can manage 10 billions dollars.. We can even get F-35 in current situation


Hole deal is more than 10 if we add Navy and Army will pass through house IA too. I am sure Army won't forget Maxx pro vehicles take them through EDA as many we can for western borders will save precious lives.


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## Humble Analyst

Riz said:


> If we play our cards well & if we can manage 10 billions dollars.. We can even get F-35 in current situation


F35 ? I doubt it

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## mingle

dBSPL said:


> With all due respect, I would like to remind you that all these defense cooperation between Pakistan and Turkey, not just a shopping.


That's what I meant its done deal ATAK is good Heli but if we get along AH1w cobras as many as we can would be good to replace our older cobras or we can let those old ones to FC along Hinds



Humble Analyst said:


> F35 ? I doubt it


Lot 13 I don't know what it means will be 80 million we should book lot 13.


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## Riz

Humble Analyst said:


> F35 ? I doubt it


If u have money u can buy anything... Anything from anyone

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## Humble Analyst

Riz said:


> If u have money u can buy anything... Anything from anyone


Turkey has the money and even Nato member and partner in manufacturing. So what happened there?

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## mingle

Humble Analyst said:


> Turkey has the money and even Nato members and partner in manufacturing. So what happened there?


F35 program is open for Turkey if turkey don't deploy S400 system. Rest they have normal. Relations with US like usual. Let's see how it's pans out.


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## Humble Analyst

Khafee said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f16-blk70-coming-pdf-exclusive.628653/page-105#post-11666435
> 
> TPS77 MRR
> 
> 
> IA





thepakistani said:


> So USA is giving “Ount kay mounh main chara”
> 
> Pakistan gave new life to USA by
> 1. Closing Kikra 1 saying oil was present, but now not present
> 2. Sabotaging CPEC
> 3. Entrapping back Pakistan in USA jaws
> 4. Putting Great Pakistani nation in IMF claws
> 
> All these happened are dreadful for China Pakistan Russia but new life for dying USA
> 
> So even 100 block 70 is very small thing
> 
> Polar world was tilting against USA, is thrown back in USA lap
> 
> Dear fellows Pakistan is the Pivot of bipolar world


We must think what are the terms of CPEC and how they benefit Pakistan. If the loan and tariffs rate do not help Pakistan then what? On the other hand I do not think Pakistan will sacrifice her relations for some F16 with China, unless China is doing something which is against Pakistani interests. Pakistani is in an economic crunch and China has no plans for giving long term soft loans as it appears.If China wanted to they would have done. But everybody watches their interests first and Chinese are more in the mode of taking than giving and this is my personal opinion.
Guess what options are left then in this time of crunch?
What Pakistan will offer to US which are attractive to US? There are three offers Pak provide.
1-Afghan peace deal
2-Some recognition to Israel with concessions for Palestine in exchange of 
3-Give up nukes
Number 3 is a no no, number 2 if handled smartly but opposition will exploit people for uprising. However if Pakistani people are smart it can be used for helping Palestine cause.
Number 1 is a go

We gave China a port and a lot of land let us see if we can benefit out of it or it was a bad financial deal?
REMEMBER NOTHING IS FREE NOT EVEN FROM CHINA.



mingle said:


> F35 program is open for Turkey if turkey don't deploy S400 system. Rest they have normal. Relations with US like usual. Let's see how it's pans out.


Turkey and US relations are slightly less than normal and I can assure you about this


----------



## mingle

Riz said:


> If u have money u can buy anything... Anything from anyone


80 million a copy is not expensive if we look at 5th generation.



Humble Analyst said:


> We must think what are the terms of CPEC and how they benefit Pakistan. If the loan and tariffs rate do not help Pakistan then what? On the other hand I do not think Pakistan will sacrifice her relations for some F16 with China, unless China is doing something which is against Pakistani interests. Pakistani is in an economic crunch and China has no plans for giving long term soft loans as it appears.If China wanted to they would have done. But everybody watches their interests first and Chinese are more in the mode of taking than giving and this is my personal opinion.
> Guess what options are left then in this time of crunch?
> What Pakistan will offer to US which are attractive to US? There are three offers Pak provide.
> 1-Afghan peace deal
> 2-Some recognition to Israel with concessions for Palestine in exchange of
> 3-Give up nukes
> Number 3 is a no no, number 2 if handled smartly but opposition will exploit people for uprising. However if Pakistani people are smart it can be used for helping Palestine cause.
> Number 1 is a go
> 
> We gave China a port and a lot of land let us see if we can benefit out of it or it was a bad financial deal?
> REMEMBER NOTHING IS FREE NOT EVEN FROM CHINA.
> 
> 
> Turkey and US relations are slightly less than normal and I can assure you about this


It's called irritants in diplomatic language will resolve plus turkey has reservations about kurds.

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## dBSPL

mingle said:


> That's what I meant its done deal ATAK is good Heli but if we get along AH1w cobras as many as we can would be good to replace our older cobras or we can let those old ones to FC along Hinds
> 
> 
> Lot 13 I don't know what it means will be 80 million we should book lot 13.


In the near future you will see some Roketsan products customized for Pakistan. These technologies will also be gradually transferred to Pakistan. At the same time, Pakistan will operate a platform that can be customized and authorized for all other ammunition groups that it is running with its own resources or procuring from China.

If the attack helicopter deal is going to be trashed, I hope Pakistan can achieve a more independent platform which is worth the decision. But if you ask me, it shouldn't be a US product.

I can understand , Pakistan and Turkey's standing together can start creating a frightening possibility for someones . Because these strategic partnerships will ensure the standardization of the Turkish and Pakistani armies in the long term and strengthen the common perspective in terms of politics.

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## Code_Geass

Completely agree, we cant just say that we dont want it any more plus it also have tot.


dBSPL said:


> With all due respect, I would like to remind you that all these defense cooperation between Pakistan and Turkey, not just a shopping.


----------



## cloud4000

pakistanipower said:


> Why you concern, its not your (Indian) concern, its comes from professional member who has a inside information @cloud4000



The topic is interesting, that's all. But since these weapons are meant to use against one country, Indian concern is a valid one, whether you like it or not. 



Khafee said:


> #dehati aurat ka rona



India's rona was quite effective when Pakistan tried to acquire the second batch of F-16 Blk52s. I remembered reading post after post on PDF saying how it was a done deal and that the F-16s were guaranteed by President Obama himself. Then there was the vote in Congress, which denied US funding for the aircraft.

(Note: Congress approved the sale of the aircraft to Pakistan, just not the funding.) 

It turned it was Pakistan that was doing the rona, blaming the Indian lobby. 

This Indian lobby hasn't fallen asleep and is working assiduously to derail any deal that will change the balance of power in South Asia. 



maverick1977 said:


> The president has a veto power... ouch !!!



What are you talking about? Congress will either agree or disagree with Trump on selling/giving arms to Pakistan. Trump's veto threat has nothing to do with anything. 



Humble Analyst said:


> F35 ? I doubt it



The longer this thread gets, the more delusional the posts. Now F-35 is in the picture. Why stop there? Go ask for the F-22 while you are at it.

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## Code_Geass

I think comparing our us relations to china is insane and both cant be put into the same category.. Us needs us now we can get something in return not so sure about the future us policy in south asia where as with china we have had a decades long relationship which has been expanding due to cpec its not loke that we started to go to china after us ditched us we have had good relationship with them before that


Humble Analyst said:


> We must think what are the terms of CPEC and how they benefit Pakistan. If the loan and tariffs rate do not help Pakistan then what? On the other hand I do not think Pakistan will sacrifice her relations for some F16 with China, unless China is doing something which is against Pakistani interests. Pakistani is in an economic crunch and China has no plans for giving long term soft loans as it appears.If China wanted to they would have done. But everybody watches their interests first and Chinese are more in the mode of taking than giving and this is my personal opinion.
> Guess what options are left then in this time of crunch?
> What Pakistan will offer to US which are attractive to US? There are three offers Pak provide.
> 1-Afghan peace deal
> 2-Some recognition to Israel with concessions for Palestine in exchange of
> 3-Give up nukes
> Number 3 is a no no, number 2 if handled smartly but opposition will exploit people for uprising. However if Pakistani people are smart it can be used for helping Palestine cause.
> Number 1 is a go
> 
> We gave China a port and a lot of land let us see if we can benefit out of it or it was a bad financial deal?
> REMEMBER NOTHING IS FREE NOT EVEN FROM CHINA.
> 
> 
> Turkey and US relations are slightly less than normal and I can assure you about this


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## Riz

Humble Analyst said:


> Turkey has the money and even Nato members and partner in manufacturing. So what happened there?


Trump is not happy the way they lost turkey there one of the best ally of decades.. If u read his last statement he admitted we did not handled them well... Now this is why i sadi time is best for pak to get our favorite toys.. US cant afford to lose pak at this time... And if we had money wr can buy even F-35..


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## ACE OF THE AIR

dBSPL said:


> In the near future you will see some Roketsan products customized for Pakistan. These technologies will also be gradually transferred to Pakistan. At the same time, Pakistan will operate a platform that can be customized and authorized for all other ammunition groups that it is running with its own resources or procuring from China.
> 
> If the attack helicopter deal is going to be trashed, I hope Pakistan can achieve a more independent platform which is worth the decision. But if you ask me, it shouldn't be a US product.
> 
> I can understand , Pakistan and Turkey's standing together can start creating a frightening possibility for someones . Because these strategic partnerships will ensure the standardization of the Turkish and Pakistani armies in the long term and strengthen the common perspective in terms of politics.


The issue is with ATAK not ATAK II. Pakistan would convert this deal to that but once we have received AH-1Z and AH-1W.

Moreover TFX, Frigates and other deals would continue as planed.

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## Humble Analyst

cloud4000 said:


> The topic is interesting, that's all. But since these weapons are meant to use against one country, Indian concern is a valid one, whether you like it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> India's rona was quite effective when Pakistan tried to acquire the second batch of F-16 Blk52s. I remembered reading post after post on PDF saying how it was a done deal and that the F-16s were guaranteed by President Obama himself. Then there was the vote in Congress, which denied US funding for the aircraft.
> 
> (Note: Congress approved the sale of the aircraft to Pakistan, just not the funding.)
> 
> It turned it was Pakistan that was doing the rona, blaming the Indian lobby.
> 
> This Indian lobby hasn't fallen asleep and is working assiduously to derail any deal that will change the balance of power in South Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? Congress will either agree or disagree with Trump on selling/giving arms to Pakistan. Trump's veto threat has nothing to do with anything.
> 
> 
> 
> The longer this thread gets, the more delusional the posts. Now F-35 is in the picture. Why stop there? Go ask for the F-22 while you are at it.


I am not asking you are quoting the wrong guy



Riz said:


> Trump is not happy the way they lost turkey there one of the best ally of decades.. If u read his last statement he admitted we did not handled them well... Now this is why i sadi time is best for pak to get our favorite toys.. US cant afford to lose pak at this time... And if we had money wr can buy even F-35..


F35 not coming


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## Quwa

Flight of falcon said:


> If Khafee leaks are true then we can say good bye to ATAK.... Americans will probably offer us store airframes to make sure we back away from Turkish purchase. There is no one to blame for this than the Turkish President and his policies . They are suicidal to say the least for his own defence industry. We can easily save 1.5 billion dollars and get upgraded super cobras which will more than match any capability from the Turkish copter.


The AH-1Z and ATAK were supposed to be a heavy/light combo. If the Zulus are coming, then working out a bypass over the US-Turkey standoff is possible. E.g., TAI can set up an assembly line at PAC for the ATAK, and PAC can buy the CTS-800 turboshaft directly from the US, and then fit the engine on PAA ATAKs in Pakistan.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The issue with ATAK T-129 is that it uses the same engine as the AH-1Z hence it was a very wise purchase at that time. ATAK offered PAC to start its own helicopter industry hence initially only 30 were ordered with a hope of having an other 60-70 that would have been make in PAC. Also it was hoped that PAC could find other orders over the years and that would make it easier to upgrade and continue with the production line. A very cost effective product could have been achieved.
> 
> Still ATAK T129 BlockII the heavier version could be preferred over the Z-10 provided Turkey is able to produce a trustable engine locally. Remember that India has purchased Apache which need to be countered.
> 
> The blunder with Turkey is that they have an impulsive President. Otherwise the Turkish F-35's would have been delivered.
> IMO Pakistan should play a waiting game for the time in regards to Turkish Products.
> 
> However with the present situation USA is not going to allow any other country to sell their arms rather would go to great lengths in providing their own technology. This is why Trump is trying to find ways in which US arms can be sold which are produced mostly in USA not abroad. Lockheed Martin has tried its level best to provide solution to its failed F-35 project but the DOD wants to sustain this project as it has poured too much of the public funds and they can not reopen production of F22 again.
> 
> If India would have continued with the T-50 project with Russia then PAF would have been getting the F-35 by now.
> 
> IMO Pakistan should try to acquire engine manufacturing capability in regards to both F-16 and AH-1Z so that PAF can have expertise and self reliance.
> PAF should also now consider the T-50FA as first choice for LIFT along with its GE-404 engine manufacturing setup.
> 
> 
> Please read the above reply..
> 
> 
> Please read my above reply..


ATAK and Zulus use different turboshaft platforms.

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## M.AsfandYar

dBSPL said:


> In the near future you will see some Roketsan products customized for Pakistan. These technologies will also be gradually transferred to Pakistan. At the same time, Pakistan will operate a platform that can be customized and authorized for all other ammunition groups that it is running with its own resources or procuring from China.
> 
> If the attack helicopter deal is going to be trashed, I hope Pakistan can achieve a more independent platform which is worth the decision. But if you ask me, it shouldn't be a US product.
> 
> I can understand , Pakistan and Turkey's standing together can start creating a frightening possibility for someones . Because these strategic partnerships will ensure the standardization of the Turkish and Pakistani armies in the long term and strengthen the common perspective in terms of politics.


That deal is not going to trash can.

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## Basel

MystryMan said:


> Saudis are using which system to intercept projectiles fired from Yemen? is it PAC-2 or -3?



PAC-3 is good against Fighter jets / aircrafts not against BMs, for that PAC-3 MSE comes in which have much better engagement envelope, but when it comes to tackle BMs THAAD is monster specially THAAD-ER and US will not sell them to Pakistan, max PAC-3MSE may be possible for Pakistan.

https://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/...rcept-systems/patriot-missile-defense-system/


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## scionofPakwattan

Quwa said:


> The AH-1Z and ATAK were supposed to be a heavy/light combo. If the Zulus are coming, then working out a bypass over the US-Turkey standoff is possible. E.g., TAI can set up an assembly line at PAC for the ATAK, and PAC can buy the CTS-800 turboshaft directly from the US, and then fit the engine on PAA ATAKs in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> ATAK and Zulus use different turboshaft platforms.


I somehow think US is more likely to give engines directly to Turkey for us instead of giving them to us to install on the choppers. I think they would only be concerned about the end use but not who handles or installs the engines

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## Riz

Humble Analyst said:


> F35 not coming


U have money???


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## Code_Geass

Do we really need f 35 for now that is the question 10 years ahead we can think.


Riz said:


> U have money???


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## Humble Analyst

Riz said:


> U have money???


I have F35 you have money?


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## Riz

Humble Analyst said:


> I have F35 you have money?


Tu patwari to nhi ha???

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Riz said:


> Tu patwari to nhi ha???


Shayad middleman ho


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## Humble Analyst

Riz said:


> Tu patwari to nhi ha???


Tera taraz guftugoo kya hay?
None of your business just stick to the topic and be realistic. If someone says something sensible try to digest.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Shayad middleman ho


So you are the middleman with the money.
Hopeless look from where the topic has gone to personal attacks 
One more attack and will report it to mods


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Humble Analyst said:


> Tera taraz guftugoo kya hay?
> None of your business just stick to the topic and be realistic. If someone says something sensible try to digest.
> 
> 
> So you are the middleman with the money.
> Hopeless look from where the topic has gone to personal attacks
> One more attack and will report it to mods


You had stated above you have F-35 so my reply was you could be the middleman who can get these birds for PAF. Just took your side to correct the situation with Riz. 
If you think it was a personal attack than you are free to do what you like.


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## Humble Analyst

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> You had stated above you have F-35 so my reply was you could be the middleman who can get these birds for PAF. Just took your side to correct the situation with Riz.
> If you think it was a personal attack than you are free to do what you like.


Are you Riz spokesperson? Riz went off topic so I responded to his post.
If you have soft corner for Riz then read his posts and advise him instead of ...



Humble Analyst said:


> Are you Riz spokesperson? Riz went off topic so I responded to his post.
> If you have soft corner for Riz then read his posts and advise him instead of ...


All good between you and me


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## araz

Humble Analyst said:


> F16 were designed for 8000 hours. With structural upgrades the life can be extended to 12000 hours. Additional 4000 means about 12 to 15 years so this can be weighed in cost benefit analysis.


I understand all of that. My question was related to the timing of the upgrade and its implications on remaining frame life. Please re read my post and do respond if you can answer the query.
Regards
A


----------



## New World

aliyusuf said:


> Total history of F-16 inventory ...
> 
> B/W 1983 - 1987
> 28 Block-15A
> 12 Block-15B Dual Seat
> 40 out of which we lost 8 in attrition
> 
> B/W 2006 - 2009
> 2 Block-15A OCU EDA
> 12 Block-15B OCU EDA (2 perhaps came later in around 2014)
> 14 out of we lost 1 in attrition
> 
> B/W 2010 - 2015
> 12 Block-52C
> 6 Block-52D
> 18
> 
> So, we got 85 birds in all and lost 9 in attrition.



what about jordanian which came in 2015-16.

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## Khafee

cloud4000 said:


> The topic is interesting, that's all. But since these weapons are meant to use against one country, Indian concern is a valid one, whether you like it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> India's rona was quite effective when Pakistan tried to acquire the second batch of F-16 Blk52s. I remembered reading post after post on PDF saying how it was a done deal and that the F-16s were guaranteed by President Obama himself. Then there was the vote in Congress, which denied US funding for the aircraft.
> 
> (Note: Congress approved the sale of the aircraft to Pakistan, just not the funding.)
> 
> It turned it was Pakistan that was doing the rona, blaming the Indian lobby.
> 
> This Indian lobby hasn't fallen asleep and is working assiduously to derail any deal that will change the balance of power in South Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? Congress will either agree or disagree with Trump on selling/giving arms to Pakistan. Trump's veto threat has nothing to do with anything.
> 
> 
> 
> The longer this thread gets, the more delusional the posts. Now F-35 is in the picture. Why stop there? Go ask for the F-22 while you are at it.


@The Eagle Pls tell this #dehati aurat supporter to get lost. Not interested in his gibberish.

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## aliyusuf

New World said:


> what about jordanian which came in 2015-16.


You are correct, I got the total right but forgot to list the 13 ex-Jordanian.

We have 32 of the original 40
We have 13 of the 14 EDA
These are the 45 which were later MLU-ed => In all 24 F-16 Block-15 AM and 21 F-16 Block-15 BM

Then we got 12 F16 Block-52C and 6 F-16 Block-52D => 18 Block-52s

And Finally we got 9 ex-Jordanian F-16A Block-15 ADF and 4 ex-Jordanian F-16B Block-15 ADF => 13 ex-Jordanians

Total 76 F-16s.

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## Khafee

GIANTsasquatch said:


> You just got your behind handed behind a ban and now you're trying to order mods around when certain members are simply speaking their mind about your random rumors?
> 
> Simmer down ffs


You need to take your agenda, and get lost. 

@The Eagle @Dubious @The Eagle @Horus

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## Humble Analyst

araz said:


> I understand all of that. My question was related to the timing of the upgrade and its implications on remaining frame life. Please re read my post and do respond if you can answer the query.
> Regards
> A


Well a very valid question and the upgrades can be planned and this should be considered and incorporated into the schedule. Sometimes operational requirements of certain aircraft may change the criteria. As to the payment if these F16s are coming or being upgraded Pakistan is not giving a lot of money, at least now.

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## Ultima Thule

cloud4000 said:


> The topic is interesting, that's all. But since these weapons are meant to use against one country, Indian concern is a valid one, whether you like it or not.


Go Start another thread on Indian defense section, why Indian concern is valid one give me valid reasons for it, you're buying weapons since early 2000, we are not concerning/protesting to exporting country because its your right s to buy whatever weapons you want if Pakistan buys some big defense items India have always shows it fake concerns @cloud4000

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## Khafee

Riz said:


> U have money???


Among three brothers, when 2 are rich, the third one automatically becomes rich

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Among three brothers, when 2 are rich, the third one automatically becomes rich


@Khafee s fourth leak plz Sir

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## Khafee

mingle said:


> @Khafee s fourth leak plz Sir


See when idiots like #dehati aurat's supporter, and giant idiot show up and start talking crap. The motivation goes away. And Mods are nowhere to be found.

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> See when idiots like #dehati aurat's supporter, and giant idiot show up and start talking crap. The motivation goes away. And Mods are nowhere to be found.


True try to derail the whole thread

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## GriffinsRule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 12 Zulu rest will be AH-1W that will be upgraded later. These are available in AMRAC.


That is entirely incorrect. Please dont just say things for the sake of it. 
The USMC even decided not to upgrade their existing AH-1Ws and opted just for newly built AH-1Zs as the cost of the upgrades was almost exactly the same as just buying newly built Cobras.
Best course of action would be just to upgrade the existing AH-1Fs

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## Khafee

GriffinsRule said:


> That is entirely incorrect. Please dont just say things for the sake of it.
> The USMC even decided not to upgrade their existing AH-1Ws and opted just for newly built AH-1Zs as the cost of the upgrades was almost exactly the same as just buying newly built Cobras.
> Best course of action would be just to upgrade the existing AH-1Fs



*Upgraded Old Cobra Gunships Offer Big Capabilities Without The Price Tag*

_https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag_

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## GriffinsRule

Khafee said:


> *Upgraded Old Cobra Gunships Offer Big Capabilities Without The Price Tag*
> 
> _https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag_


Eaxactly, those are AH-1Fs cobras being upgraded, not AH-1Ws so agrees with what I said.

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## New World

Khafee said:


> And Mods are nowhere to be found.


Mods act like backbenchers, not interested in activities of ongoing class..



Flight of falcon said:


> If Khafee leaks are true then we can say good bye to ATAK.... Americans will probably offer us store airframes to make sure we back away from Turkish purchase. There is no one to blame for this than the Turkish President and his policies . They are suicidal to say the least for his own defence industry. We can easily save 1.5 billion dollars and get upgraded super cobras which will more than match any capability from the Turkish copter.



ATAK deal is not going be scrapped, basically PA is not going to relay on single country for attack helicopters.

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## ziaulislam

New World said:


> Mods act like backbenchers, not interested in activities of ongoing class..
> 
> 
> 
> ATAK deal is not going be scrapped, basically PA is not going to relay on single country for attack helicopters.


really depends, logically for poor country like Pakistan it should be scrapped, the money diverted to PAF..
dont know why should we have so many gunships in low intensity war..
better use that money for MRAPs for army and drones for survillance

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> See when idiots like #dehati aurat's supporter, and giant idiot show up and start talking crap. The motivation goes away. And Mods are nowhere to be found.


h


Khafee said:


> See when idiots like #dehati aurat's supporter, and giant idiot show up and start talking crap. The motivation goes away. And Mods are nowhere to be found.


sir just continue your leaks. Enemies will burn down in hate without using single bullet. @Khafee leaks 4 and haters will going mad .

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## Humble Analyst

ziaulislam said:


> really depends, logically for poor country like Pakistan it should be scrapped, the money diverted to PAF..
> dont know why should we have so many gunships in low intensity war..
> better use that money for MRAPs for army and drones for survillance


Gunships are much needed especially in low intensity wars. Pak army’s casualties would be significantly lower in the operations conducted in North South Waziristan if they had appropriate amount of gunship support. I am disappointed with the post but then everybody is free to give his opinion.
The bonus is helis can be deployed in anti armor role and Airforce can be used for other missions instead of tactical support and anti armor role. Army can coordinate better if it is using its own helis in anti armor role instead of coordinating with Air Force. I do believe Air Force needs more aircraft but gunships are equally important and more so in low intensity warfare.

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## mingle

Maxpane said:


> h
> 
> sir just continue your leaks. Enemies will burn down in hate without using single bullet. @Khafee leaks 4 and haters will going mad .


Go @Khafee Go bring @Khafee leaks 4

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## MystryMan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> The issue with ATAK T-129 is that it uses the same engine as the AH-1Z hence it was a very wise purchase at that time. ATAK offered PAC to start its own helicopter industry hence initially only 30 were ordered with a hope of having an other 60-70 that would have been make in PAC. Also it was hoped that PAC could find other orders over the years and that would make it easier to upgrade and continue with the production line. A very cost effective product could have been achieved.
> 
> Still ATAK T129 BlockII the heavier version could be preferred over the Z-10 provided Turkey is able to produce a trustable engine locally. Remember that India has purchased Apache which need to be countered.
> 
> The blunder with Turkey is that they have an impulsive President. Otherwise the Turkish F-35's would have been delivered.
> IMO Pakistan should play a waiting game for the time in regards to Turkish Products.
> 
> However with the present situation USA is not going to allow any other country to sell their arms rather would go to great lengths in providing their own technology. This is why Trump is trying to find ways in which US arms can be sold which are produced mostly in USA not abroad. Lockheed Martin has tried its level best to provide solution to its failed F-35 project but the DOD wants to sustain this project as it has poured too much of the public funds and they can not reopen production of F22 again.
> 
> If India would have continued with the T-50 project with Russia then PAF would have been getting the F-35 by now.
> 
> IMO Pakistan should try to acquire engine manufacturing capability in regards to both F-16 and AH-1Z so that PAF can have expertise and self reliance.
> PAF should also now consider the T-50FA as first choice for LIFT along with its GE-404 engine manufacturing setup.
> 
> 
> Please read the above reply..
> 
> 
> Please read my above reply..



I agree with your Turk president part. I think he still angry on the coup attempt of 2016.
KAI T/FA-50 is a very good option.IIRC GE-F404 was initially an option for JF-17 as well, so if we can get it with RD-93 or instead make a Blk (50+ planes) of JF-17 which covers LIFT and a dedicated strike will be more beneficial instead of just buying off the shelf.



Humble Analyst said:


> Gunships are much needed in low intensity wars especially. Pak army’s casualties would be significantly lower in the operations conducted in North South Waziristan if they had appropriate amount of gunship support. I am disappointed with the post but then everybody is free to give his opinion.
> The bonus is helis can be deployed in anti armor role and Airforce can be used in other missions instead of tactical support and anti armor role. Army can coordinate better if it is using its own helis in anti armor role instead of coordinating with Air Force. I do believe Air Force needs more aircraft but gunships are equally import and more do in low intensity warfare.


All major Ops are over now. So drones/UCAV and Hinds might be enough for job on western border.
What my understanding is that attack heli can be deployed effectively by PA when PAF has achieved air superiority.

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## Humble Analyst

MystryMan said:


> I agree with your Turk president part. I think he still angry on the coup attempt of 2016.
> KAI T/FA-50 is a very good option.IIRC GE-F404 was initially an option for JF-17 as well, so if we can get it with RD-93 or instead make a Blk (50+ planes) of JF-17 which covers LIFT and a dedicated strike will be more beneficial instead of just buying off the shelf.
> 
> 
> All major Ops are over now. So drones/UCAV and Hinds might be enough for job on western border.
> What my understanding is that attack heli can be deployed effectively by PA when PAF has achieved air superiority.


But if we think that we can have tea break and no more incursions will happen on the Western border then we maybe surprised. 
We will always need more Helos than we have. 
If air superiority is denied even gunships can be used effectively in anti armor role providing Air Force opportunity to pursue other critical missions.


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## Flight of falcon

Humble Analyst said:


> But if we think that we can have tea break and no more incursions will happen on the Western border then we maybe surprised.
> We will always need more Helos than we have.
> If air superiority is denied even gunships can be used effectively in anti armor role providing Air Force opportunity to pursue other critical missions.




Pakistan is hoping that Trump will visit Pakistan to sign Afghan peace accord in September. That will be an amazing moment of success for Pakistan.

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## Armchair

The OH-58D bought second hand from the US could also play a very useful role. They are small, light and armed. A scout helicopter that can fight back a bit. Would complement and get the best use out of the Cobras.



Humble Analyst said:


> But if we think that we can have tea break and no more incursions will happen on the Western border then we maybe surprised.
> We will always need more Helos than we have.
> If air superiority is denied even gunships can be used effectively in anti armor role providing Air Force opportunity to pursue other critical missions.



Helicopters being used in contested airspace is actually an urban legend. Helicopters are slow and have giant blades easily spotted by modern fighter radars. They are a turkey shoot for any fighter aircraft. Faster low flying CAS aircraft have always been the best bet in a heavily contested airspace.

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> *Upgraded Old Cobra Gunships Offer Big Capabilities Without The Price Tag*
> 
> _https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-offer-big-capabilities-without-the-price-tag_


@Khafee Usman Shabbir on other PDF said about yr ago that Army looking to upgrade our current cobras fleet according to Him engine is not issue Army has very good workshop for engines but upgrades he said Turkish not sure now.


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## Humble Analyst

Armchair said:


> The OH-58D bought second hand from the US could also play a very useful role. They are small, light and armed. A scout helicopter that can fight back a bit. Would complement and get the best use out of the Cobras.
> 
> 
> 
> Helicopters being used in contested airspace is actually an urban legend. Helicopters are slow and have giant blades easily spotted by modern fighter radars. They are a turkey shoot for any fighter aircraft. Faster low flying CAS aircraft have always been the best bet in a heavily contested airspace.


You said it in heavy contested air space.
Why the world keeps manufacturing them?
We do need for anti insurgency war for supporting and softening the targets.
If enemy armor is advancing faster than the defense formation gunships can buy precious time until anti armor units can close in.

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## Armchair

Humble Analyst said:


> You said it in heavy contested air space.
> Why the world keeps manufacturing them?
> We do need for anti insurgency war for supporting and softening the targets.
> If enemy armor is advancing faster than the defense formation gunships can buy precious time until anti armor units can close in.



They are not manufactured for fighting heavily contested airspace. The West uses them after attaining air superiority. Russia relies on Su-25s if they have to go into contested airspace and uses their armed choppers for COIN as we saw in the 1980s in Afghanistan.


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## Humble Analyst

Armchair said:


> They are not manufactured for fighting heavily contested airspace. The West uses them after attaining air superiority. Russia relies on Su-25s if they have to go into contested airspace and uses their armed choppers for COIN as we saw in the 1980s in Afghanistan.


Where did I say that they are used in beavily contested airspace sir.
You stop the advance when enemy armor is advancing in your territory and if your territory has heavily contested air space then denial of air superiority has failed. So in this case you have bigger problems.
The primary use is anti insurgency operations and secondary anti armor/tactical support.



Armchair said:


> The OH-58D bought second hand from the US could also play a very useful role. They are small, light and armed. A scout helicopter that can fight back a bit. Would complement and get the best use out of the Cobras.
> 
> 
> 
> Helicopters being used in contested airspace is actually an urban legend. Helicopters are slow and have giant blades easily spotted by modern fighter radars. They are a turkey shoot for any fighter aircraft. Faster low flying CAS aircraft have always been the best bet in a heavily contested airspace.


And USSR found out that Hinds were big and easy target. If they had sleek gunships it would have helped so much more.


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## Armchair

Humble Analyst said:


> Where did I say that they are used in beavily contested airspace sir.
> You stop the advance when enemy armor is advancing in your territory and if your territory has heavily contested air space then denial of air superiority has failed. So in this case you have bigger problems.
> The primary use is anti insurgency operations and secondary anti armor/tactical support.



In a Pak-India conflict we are expecting a heavily contested airspace over the battlefield. 

BTW history of attack helicopters stared with the Cobra, at that time the US was fighting an insurgency in Vietnam and they needed to escort their helicopter borne forces. The fighters were too fast for the helicopters, therefore they needed something slower. 

Helicopters are also very effective in mountainous terrain and in a jungle environment. They are also very good with expeditionary forces - you can easily set up a base if you are fighting abroad and put attack helicopters there.

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## Humble Analyst

Armchair said:


> In a Pak-India conflict we are expecting a heavily contested airspace over the battlefield.
> 
> BTW history of attack helicopters stared with the Cobra, at that time the US was fighting an insurgency in Vietnam and they needed to escort their helicopter borne forces. The fighters were too fast for the helicopters, therefore they needed something slower.
> 
> Helicopters are also very effective in mountainous terrain and in a jungle environment. They are also very good with expeditionary forces - you can easily set up a base if you are fighting abroad and put attack helicopters there.


We are on the same page just posturing

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## MystryMan

Humble Analyst said:


> We are on the same page just posturing


Gunships and air superiority are both needed, but we need to prioritize what is more important specially when funding is a problem.

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## Armchair

MystryMan said:


> Gunships and air superiority are both needed, but we need to prioritize what is more important specially when funding is a problem.



Problem is, we are totally neglecting CAS aircraft. They are designed for ground attack, and are far more survivable in contested airspace. Specially if they are equiped with some particular gadgets.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Armchair said:


> The OH-58D bought second hand from the US could also play a very useful role. They are small, light and armed. A scout helicopter that can fight back a bit. Would complement and get the best use out of the Cobras.
> 
> 
> 
> Helicopters being used in contested airspace is actually an urban legend. Helicopters are slow and have giant blades easily spotted by modern fighter radars. They are a turkey shoot for any fighter aircraft. Faster low flying CAS aircraft have always been the best bet in a heavily contested airspace.


Helicopters are best when used under cover of darkness to destroy radar sites something the Apache did in Desert Storm otherwise the classic use is based on popping out from behind mountain or hills to attack armored columns. Hit and run gorilla type of attacks, armour protection and transport support are also trades that attack helicopters fulfill.

Hind was procured by Pakistan for a similar role to provide PA commando's enough coverfire for them to land behind enemy lines using the same helicopter.



Armchair said:


> Problem is, we are totally neglecting CAS aircraft. They are designed for ground attack, and are far more survivable in contested airspace. Specially if they are equiped with some particular gadgets.


Tactical Nuclear Weapons fulfil the role where there is large concentration or a well deployed air defence system to provide protection.



MystryMan said:


> I agree with your Turk president part. I think he still angry on the coup attempt of 2016.
> KAI T/FA-50 is a very good option.IIRC GE-F404 was initially an option for JF-17 as well, so if we can get it with RD-93 or instead make a Blk (50+ planes) of JF-17 which covers LIFT and a dedicated strike will be more beneficial instead of just buying off the shelf.


The issue is USA will never transfer the GE-404 engine unless Pakistan purchases something that uses this engine. The aircraft that can be procured are F-18, Gripen, Tejas and KAI T/FA-50. Gripen and Tejas are out so this leaves Pakistan with the options of F-18 and T-50.

Somehow using JF-17 as LIFT option does not seem feasible even if we have mated them with western engines as this aircraft is not designed for such role.



MystryMan said:


> All major Ops are over now. So drones/UCAV and Hinds might be enough for job on western border.
> What my understanding is that attack heli can be deployed effectively by PA when PAF has achieved air superiority.


Lets see how things go in the future but keep in mind that Pakistan always considered Afghanistan as strategic depth.



GriffinsRule said:


> Eaxactly, those are AH-1Fs cobras being upgraded, not AH-1Ws so agrees with what I said.
> 
> 
> View attachment 572473


*Super Cobra attack helicopter upgrade programme*
A major upgrade of the Bell Super Cobra known as the H-1 programme is underway. The programme calls for the remanufacture of the US Marine Corps fleet of 180 AH-1W Super Cobra and 100 UH-1N utility helicopters to an advanced four-bladed configuration, which will operate to beyond 2020. An upgraded cockpit configuration allows easy co-pilot access to the night targeting system (NTS). These are also remanufactured with ‘zero-time’ airframes comprising advanced technology.

The original two-bladed semi-rigid, teetering rotor system has been replaced with a four-bladed, hingeless, bearingless rotor system. The improvement in flight characteristics provided by the four-bladed configuration has led to increases in flight envelope, maximum speed, vertical rate-of-climb, payload and rotor vibration level.

The USMC subsequently decided on new-build rather than remanufactured UH-1Y helicopters and, in February 2008, awarded Bell a contract for the new build of 40 of the proposed 189 AH-1Z helicopters. Four additional helicopters were ordered in September 2008.

First flight of the AH-1Z took place in December 2000. The AH-1W entered low-rate initial production (LRIP) in October 2003. Five AH-1W helicopters were remanufactured to AH-1Z standard and took part in flight testing at NAS Patuxent River, Maryland, US. Sea trials in May 2005 included the first shipboard landing on USS Bataan, Wasp Class amphibious assault ship.

Developmental testing was completed in February 2006 and two test aircraft began operational evaluation (OPEVAL) with the USMC in May 2006. The first production AH-1Z helicopter was delivered to the USMC in January 2007. Phase II of OPEVAL began in February 2008, and the OPEVAL was completed in October 2010. In November 2010, the AH-1Z was approved for the full-rate production. Initial operating capability of the AH-1Z Cobra took place in February 2011.

The Turkish Army selected the AH-1Z King Cobra in July 2000 with a request for 50 out of 145 helicopters required. In May 2004, it was announced that the acquisition was to be cancelled. The helicopters were to be built in Turkey by Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI).

The government of the Republic of Korea requested a possible foreign military sale of 36 AH-1Z helicopters in September 2012. The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency approved a possible foreign military sale of 15 AH-1Zs to Pakistan in April 2015.

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## Metanoia

@Khafee This is just my opinion, but is it perhaps that certain GCC countries have realised that until or unless Pakistan's own defence needs are not fulfilled vis-a-vis our neighbours (primarily India), Pakistan may never be able to disengage and help them in their time of need? Hence, we may potentially see them funding these big ticket items?

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## mingle

Metanoia said:


> @Khafee This is just my opinion, but is it perhaps that certain GCC countries have realised that until or unless Pakistan's own defence needs are not fulfilled vis-a-vis our neighbours (primarily India), Pakistan may never be able to disengage and help them in their time of need? Hence, we may potentially see them funding these big ticket items?


We need to increase the size of force and assets force size started at Raheel sharif era now time to grow mussle

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## Armchair

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Helicopters are best when used under cover of darkness



This is actually not true. There is no "darkness" in modern combat. You cannot hide behind a tree from an enemy that has fighters in the sky. And we aren't even going to talk about AWACS.

The singular exception is with India, where their fighter planes can hide from radars not only in the dark, but when there is cloud cover.



Metanoia said:


> @Khafee This is just my opinion, but is it perhaps that certain GCC countries have realised that until or unless Pakistan's own defence needs are not fulfilled vis-a-vis our neighbours (primarily India), Pakistan may never be able to disengage and help them in their time of need? Hence, we may potentially see them funding these big ticket items?



Not to mention that coming genocide India is planning in Kashmir. We cannot just sit and watch that sanguine show. What this means is that, despite the economy and all apparent common sense, we need to grow into a larger military force. 

For the army, the way forward, with limited budget, is to follow on the lines of Switzerland / Israel, with a hybrid army. This means we need to recruit a chunk of the army via conscription. I believe IK and the government is aware of this need but does not wish to interfere in army affairs thus has remained silent. It is up to the top brass to realize this need and take it forward.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Armchair said:


> is to follow on the lines of Switzerland / Israel,


this will never happen.


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## GriffinsRule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Helicopters are best when used under cover of darkness to destroy radar sites something the Apache did in Desert Storm otherwise the classic use is based on popping out from behind mountain or hills to attack armored columns. Hit and run gorilla type of attacks, armour protection and transport support are also trades that attack helicopters fulfill.
> 
> Hind was procured by Pakistan for a similar role to provide PA commando's enough coverfire for them to land behind enemy lines using the same helicopter.
> 
> 
> Tactical Nuclear Weapons fulfil the role where there is large concentration or a well deployed air defence system to provide protection.
> 
> 
> The issue is USA will never transfer the GE-404 engine unless Pakistan purchases something that uses this engine. The aircraft that can be procured are F-18, Gripen, Tejas and KAI T/FA-50. Gripen and Tejas are out so this leaves Pakistan with the options of F-18 and T-50.
> 
> Somehow using JF-17 as LIFT option does not seem feasible even if we have mated them with western engines as this aircraft is not designed for such role.
> 
> 
> Lets see how things go in the future but keep in mind that Pakistan always considered Afghanistan as strategic depth.
> 
> 
> *Super Cobra attack helicopter upgrade programme*
> A major upgrade of the Bell Super Cobra known as the H-1 programme is underway. The programme calls for the remanufacture of the US Marine Corps fleet of 180 AH-1W Super Cobra and 100 UH-1N utility helicopters to an advanced four-bladed configuration, which will operate to beyond 2020. An upgraded cockpit configuration allows easy co-pilot access to the night targeting system (NTS). These are also remanufactured with ‘zero-time’ airframes comprising advanced technology.
> 
> The original two-bladed semi-rigid, teetering rotor system has been replaced with a four-bladed, hingeless, bearingless rotor system. The improvement in flight characteristics provided by the four-bladed configuration has led to increases in flight envelope, maximum speed, vertical rate-of-climb, payload and rotor vibration level.
> 
> The USMC subsequently decided on new-build rather than remanufactured UH-1Y helicopters and, in February 2008, awarded Bell a contract for the new build of 40 of the proposed 189 AH-1Z helicopters. Four additional helicopters were ordered in September 2008.
> 
> First flight of the AH-1Z took place in December 2000. The AH-1W entered low-rate initial production (LRIP) in October 2003. Five AH-1W helicopters were remanufactured to AH-1Z standard and took part in flight testing at NAS Patuxent River, Maryland, US. Sea trials in May 2005 included the first shipboard landing on USS Bataan, Wasp Class amphibious assault ship.
> 
> Developmental testing was completed in February 2006 and two test aircraft began operational evaluation (OPEVAL) with the USMC in May 2006. The first production AH-1Z helicopter was delivered to the USMC in January 2007. Phase II of OPEVAL began in February 2008, and the OPEVAL was completed in October 2010. In November 2010, the AH-1Z was approved for the full-rate production. Initial operating capability of the AH-1Z Cobra took place in February 2011.
> 
> The Turkish Army selected the AH-1Z King Cobra in July 2000 with a request for 50 out of 145 helicopters required. In May 2004, it was announced that the acquisition was to be cancelled. The helicopters were to be built in Turkey by Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI).
> 
> The government of the Republic of Korea requested a possible foreign military sale of 36 AH-1Z helicopters in September 2012. The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency approved a possible foreign military sale of 15 AH-1Zs to Pakistan in April 2015.


See my post earlier with updated information in regards to the AH-1W upgrade program. It was curtailed already hence makes no sense to buy those as used examples and then try to upgrade them to the Z standard. Better just to buy new choppers for about the same price and upgrade the existing AH-1Fs.

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## TheTallGuy

well since every body here wants a Block 72 & MRR Radar and used F-16s but what i want is different!

I want MiG-29UPG or better Su-30MKI both FMC bearing Indian insignia ...

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## mingle

TheTallGuy said:


> well since every body here wants a Block 72 & MRR Radar and used F-16s but what i want is different!
> 
> I want MiG-29UPG or better Su-30MKI both FMC bearing Indian insignia ...


Come on @the tallguy u know more than US tell us more what else is coming from our wish list


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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> well since every body here wants a Block 72 & MRR Radar and used F-16s but what i want is different!
> 
> I want MiG-29UPG or better Su-30MKI both FMC bearing Indian insignia ...


Woh what a day dreaming @TheTallGuy


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## TheTallGuy

@mingle 
@airomerix said 8 MOU so my educated guess is we know 3 of them up-till now.

What i Know? hmm..

I know 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 and 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ Viper Upgrade.
I know these will happen due to exchange of both IDF/AF Pilots. 

@pakistanipower 
Why not? wishes do come true!

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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> @mingle
> @airomerix said 8 MOU so my educated guess is we know 3 of them up-till now.
> 
> What i Know? hmm..
> 
> I know 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 and 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ Viper Upgrade.
> I know these will happen due to exchange of both IDF/AF Pilots.
> 
> @pakistanipower
> Why not? wishes do come true!


What is you educated baseless guess worth nothing and as for your day dreaming we just started our warm relations with Russia it is too early that Russia will gives us big ticket items (Trust) in near future and also don't forget Indian lobby in Russian Duma @TheTallGuy


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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> What is you educated baseless guess worth nothing and as for your day dreaming we just started our warm relations with Russia it is too early that Russia will gives us big ticket items (Trust) in near future and also don't forget Indian lobby in Russian Duma @TheTallGuy



Dear Brother, You missed the point by a mile or so...i was not talking about the purchasing! read what is FMC (Full mission Capable) bearing Indian Insignia (In Service with IAF)

Russians are not our Friends...

Regards

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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> I know 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 and 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ Viper Upgrade.


As per @Khafee not 36 F-16C/D Block 72 but 18-24 F-16C/D Block 72 and rest of our all F-16 upgrades to V standard included F-16C/D Block 52+ @TheTallGuy

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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> As per @Khafee not 36 F-16C/D Block 72 but 18-24 F-16C/D Block 72 and rest of our all F-16 upgrades to V standard included F-16C/D Block 52+ @TheTallGuy



@mingle asked me what i know...this is what i know! Bhai i amazed you did not went in the rabit hole with me on IDF/AF pilot exchange...? ask me...

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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> Dear Brother, You missed the point by a mile or so...i was not talking about the purchasing! read what is FMC (Full mission Capable) bearing Indian Insignia (In Service with IAF)
> 
> Russians are not our Friends...
> 
> Regards


If you're not talking about Purchase than what you talking about, you want to Russia to give us MKI/MIG-29UBK tech to us to evaluate or something, then why are you talking Russian is not our friends, basically Russian is Neither our friends or foes, If we have money (hard cash) we can buy from whatever we want from Russia but not in near future but far future if we can develop trust with Russia @TheTallGuy



TheTallGuy said:


> @mingle asked me what i know...this is what i know! Bhai i amazed you did not went in the rabit hole with me on IDF/AF pilot exchange...? ask me...


Then please tell us what do you know @TheTallGuy

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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> If you're not talking about Purchase than what you talking about, you want to Russia to give us MKI/MIG-29UBK tech to us to evaluate or something, then why are you talking Russian is not our friends, basically Russian is Neither our friends or foes, If we have money (hard cash) we can buy from whatever we want from Russia but not in near future but far future if we can develop trust with Russia @TheTallGuy



You are way way off target...read my post again and note it down.



pakistanipower said:


> Then please tell us what do you @TheTallGuy



I want to add @MastanKhan into this

The policy of Israel is yet simple but effective "Enemies of my enemy is my friend" current situation is same. We have IDF/AF pilots Sauds are paying the bill for IDF/AF Pilots exchange. Israel know who has the leverage at the moment..its the Sauds ..Israel first enemy is Iran and who is Iran Enemy = Sauds we have cordial & brotherly love with whom? Sauds..right! Now understand why Sauds are paying the bill. Win win situation.

Some will find this post very harsh but in reality geopolitical politics its normal. Some of you dont know that Israel provided arms & ammunition to Iran in 1st Persian Gulf War ..ever think why? same philosophy Iran was fighting Iraq ...and then Iraq was Enemy number one..

Regards

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## Maxpane

TheTallGuy said:


> You are way way off target...read my post again and note it down.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to add @MastanKhan into this
> 
> The policy of Israel is yet simple but effective "Enemies of my enemy is my friend" current situation is same. We have IDF/AF pilots Sauds are paying the bill for IDF/AF Pilots exchange. Israel know who has the leverage at the moment..its the Sauds ..Israel first enemy is Iran and who is Iran Enemy = Sauds we have cordial & brotherly love with whom? Sauds..right! Now understand why Sauds are paying the bill. Win win situation.
> 
> Some will find this post very harsh but in reality geopolitical politics its normal. Some of you dont know that Israel provided arms & ammunition to Iran in 1st Persian Gulf War ..ever think why? same philosophy Iran was fighting Iraq ...and then Iraq was Enemy number one..
> 
> Regards


@Khafee sir can you shed some light


----------



## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> You are way way off target...read my post again and note it down.



This is your first post on the subject and please explain its in simple words @TheTallGuy 


TheTallGuy said:


> well since every body here wants a Block 72 & MRR Radar and used F-16s but what i want is different!
> 
> I want MiG-29UPG or better Su-30MKI both FMC bearing Indian insignia ...





TheTallGuy said:


> You are way way off target...read my post again and note it down.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to add @MastanKhan into this
> 
> The policy of Israel is yet simple but effective "Enemies of my enemy is my friend" current situation is same. We have IDF/AF pilots Sauds are paying the bill for IDF/AF Pilots exchange. Israel know who has the leverage at the moment..its the Sauds ..Israel first enemy is Iran and who is Iran Enemy = Sauds we have cordial & brotherly love with whom? Sauds..right! Now understand why Sauds are paying the bill. Win win situation.
> 
> Some will find this post very harsh but in reality geopolitical politics its normal. Some of you dont know that Israel provided arms & ammunition to Iran in 1st Persian Gulf War ..ever think why? same philosophy Iran was fighting Iraq ...and then Iraq was Enemy number one..
> 
> Regards


Baseless assumptions with no slid proofs @TheTallGuy

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## Pakistani Fighter

pakistanipower said:


> As per @Khafee not 36 F-16C/D Block 72 but 18-24 F-16C/D Block 72 and rest of our all F-16 upgrades to V standard included F-16C/D Block 52+ @TheTallGuy


F16 C/D block 72 or F16 E/F block 72?


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## ali_raza

TheTallGuy said:


> You are way way off target...read my post again and note it down.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to add @MastanKhan into this
> 
> The policy of Israel is yet simple but effective "Enemies of my enemy is my friend" current situation is same. We have IDF/AF pilots Sauds are paying the bill for IDF/AF Pilots exchange. Israel know who has the leverage at the moment..its the Sauds ..Israel first enemy is Iran and who is Iran Enemy = Sauds we have cordial & brotherly love with whom? Sauds..right! Now understand why Sauds are paying the bill. Win win situation.
> 
> Some will find this post very harsh but in reality geopolitical politics its normal. Some of you dont know that Israel provided arms & ammunition to Iran in 1st Persian Gulf War ..ever think why? same philosophy Iran was fighting Iraq ...and then Iraq was Enemy number one..
> 
> Regards


i thought it was uncle sam footing the bill.
if the sauds were paying cash why not get eft used ones with upgrades 
72 odd aircraft with upgrades 
tranch3b all for 3.2b


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> F16 C/D block 72 or F16 E/F block 72?


I don't know bro @TheTallGuy used this term, and E/F term is used for UAE Block 60, may the next term used on our Block 72 F-16 will be G/H who knows @Syed Hammad Ahmed


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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> I don't know bro @TheTallGuy used this term, and E/F term is used for UAE Block 60, may the next term used on our Block 72 F-16 will be G/H who knows @Syed Hammad Ahmed



Dear 
New Built F-16C/D Block 72 36 x Aircraft 24 x Charlies and 12 x Deltas
In Serivce F-16C/D Block 52 18 x Aircraft 12 x Charlies and 6 x Deltas (Upgraded to Viper)

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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> Dear
> New Built F-16C/D Block 72 36 x Aircraft 24 x Charlies and 12 x Deltas
> In Serivce F-16C/D Block 52 18 x Aircraft 12 x Charlies and 6 x Deltas (Upgraded to Viper)


tell me that You have the better source than @Khafee he is professional member here and he is more reliable then you @TheTallGuy


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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> tell me that You have the better source than @Khafee he is professional member here and he is more reliable then you @TheTallGuy



Ok ...do what you see fit!

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## MystryMan

pakistanipower said:


> tell me that You have the better source than @Khafee he is professional member here and he is more reliable then you @TheTallGuy


The Blk72 may be ordered like 24 with an option of 12 or X no. more.


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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> this will never happen.


It was tried in the 70s and like most of Idiot Bhutto's ideas failed miserably. There is general sense in this idea but the numbers are so huge and the requirements for training and equipment are so large and labour intensive Pakistan Army just cannot cope.
There could be a way where every year the army chooses to recruit say X K number of cadets and takes them through the army schools system as cadets. These cadets should be picked up at year 8 after fitness testing, go through metric and intermediate education. They should then be given a choice of either branching out into areas of their interests or going into Police and Army or other fields where the armed forces have use of them. If they choose the later their education is free provided they keep certain education, moral and physical standards. They can go on periodical training and complete their education. This would require a lot of arrangements which the army might not want to engage in as they already have enough recruits. However the training in an army environment will do wonders for these children and their general fitness and development. Plus the character building will eventually do wonders for the society at large.

A

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## Ultima Thule

MystryMan said:


> The Blk72 may be ordered like 24 with an option of 12 or X no. more.


Are you asking a question or telling me @MystryMan


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## Trailer23

The news is a bit old, but finally the Bulgarian Parliament & President finally see eye-to-eye and have given the green light for the Eight F-16's.

*Deliveries: 2023/2024*

Reason why i'm mentioning this right, is because now that they've (LM) got a lot of back-orders - even if we get the order for the Block 72, we won't be seeing it in the PAF inventory, atleast after Trump's 2nd term is over (if he gets re-elected).


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## Khafee

kaif786 said:


> pakistan can get PAC-3 as promised


Who promised PAC-3?

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## Trailer23

Its highly unlikely that they'll be able to produce that many jet (only) for Pakistan by 2020. Chances are slim to none.

Bahrain is the launch customer for the Block 72, and I doubt they just want a couple to start off with.

*Q.* With the assembly line moving off to South Carolina, how many jets can they produce in a 1 Year?

@Khafee @TheTallGuy @Irfan Baloch


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## Khafee

pakistanipower said:


> And as per @Khafee 18-24 Block 72 coming, with a upgrades of all of our F-16 fleet inculding Block 52+ to V standards, plus TPS-77MMR, and *20+- AH-1Z Viper,* If you better source if have for you 36 Block 72 will comes kindly share with us , when and whoms you get this information from @TheTallGuy


12 AH-1Z's for now. Rest stands true as well.

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## Ultima Thule

kaif786 said:


> i think pakistan can squeeze american air force Block 72 due to afganistan pull back tgat trump wants before 2020 so we muslims shud all celebrate as pakistan will see 24 block 72 transferred from USAF to pakistan by 2020 and rest all 80 PAF F-16 upgraded to Block 72 before trumps second term in 2nd term pakistan can get PAC-3 as promised


USAF has no Block 72 F-16 but their older F-16 Block 52+ upgrades to V standard, Just like they did for their F-15 @kaif786

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## Khafee

kaif786 said:


> so by which year paf will get all 24 Block 72s, otherwise it will be too late


Don't worry, contingency plans will cover any gaps until then. 

In the mean time, stay safe and dont go about screaming "jai shri ramo", or even look at red meat, forget about eating it. 

Becoming a good sabzi khoor might be a very good idea.

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## Ultima Thule

kaif786 said:


> so by which year paf will get all 24 Block 72s, otherwise it will be too late


might be after 5 years from now We are now talking New built Block-72 F-16 @kaif786


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## Khafee

TheTallGuy said:


> Dear
> New Built F-16C/D Block 72 36 x Aircraft 24 x Charlies and 12 x Deltas
> In Serivce F-16C/D Block 52 18 x Aircraft 12 x Charlies and 6 x Deltas (Upgraded to Viper)


Personification of Chawal.

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## New World

TheTallGuy said:


> I know 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 and 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ Viper Upgrade.
> I know these will happen due to exchange of *both IDF/AF Pilots.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> fighter jets for the exchange of fighter pilots..
> 
> @Khafee how truth is in above post.


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## Khafee

kaif786 said:


> no khafee its the other way we r killing rapin sheep hindus they dont have any will to fight .. dont believe in media hype the reality is opposite and dont forget we r real davedaars of mughals and ultimately pakistani and bangla muslims will come under our rule


You high on gau mutar as well?

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## Khafee

pakistanipower said:


> might be after 5 years from now We are now talking New built Block-72 F-16 @kaif786


Within 24mnths for now. IA

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## Ultima Thule

kaif786 said:


> no khafee its the other way we r killing rapin sheep hindus they dont have any will to fight .. dont believe in media hype the reality is opposite and dont forget we r real davedaars of mughals and ultimately pakistani and bangla muslims will come under our rule


What rule Kashmiri rule and kashmiri don't want join Pakistan based on few old business men you met what a stupid claims of yours @kaif786 
and don't worry we upgrades our old F-16 to V standard in this time periods @kaif786


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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> Within 24mnths for now.


thats even more good news sir g

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## Khafee

kaif786 said:


> wat r u saying brother?? u shud recognise we Indian muslims r true ruler of south asian muslims the real Successors of mughals u pakistan muslims r our brothers but ultimately our subjects


You guys are a disgrace to the word "Muslim."
Grow a pair then come back.

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## Ultima Thule

Khafee said:


> Within 24mnths for now.


Within 2 years this is pretty fast phase to get F-16 Block 72, i still doubt it @Khafee

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## Khafee

pakistanipower said:


> Within 2 years this is pretty fast phase to get F-16 Block 72, i still doubt it @Khafee


IA before that

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## Ultima Thule

Khafee said:


> IA before that


??? sorry @Khafee

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## Khafee

kaif786 said:


> see i am friendly here but dont forget pakistani place in hierarchy of muslims, u ppl were never rulers of anything we Indian muslims r successors of mughals u got pakistan through british, and once Indian muslims will rise pakistani and bangla muslims will be treated as brothers but only as subjects we wil b the rulers, and pakistani muslims r treated everywhere as 2nd tier only .. muslims world knows this so when it will cone to it Indian muslims will be the ones



@The Eagle @Dubious Thread ban pls - another idiot high on the yellow elixr, derailing the tread with his delusional crap.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

araz said:


> It was tried in the 70s and like most of Idiot Bhutto's ideas failed miserably. There is general sense in this idea but the numbers are so huge and the requirements for training and equipment are so large and labour intensive Pakistan Army just cannot cope.
> There could be a way where every year the army chooses to recruit say X K number of cadets and takes them through the army schools system as cadets. These cadets should be picked up at year 8 after fitness testing, go through metric and intermediate education. They should then be given a choice of either branching out into areas of their interests or going into Police and Army or other fields where the armed forces have use of them. If they choose the later their education is free provided they keep certain education, moral and physical standards. They can go on periodical training and complete their education. This would require a lot of arrangements which the army might not want to engage in as they already have enough recruits. However the training in an army environment will do wonders for these children and their general fitness and development. Plus the character building will eventually do wonders for the society at large.
> 
> A


During 1965 war Ayub Khan wanted this but Bhutto was in favour of Hur (free men). Even today this is possible but we would require some sort of structure from start i.e all births should be in hospitals and every child under state care which should have medical, physical & mental fitness along with education so that we have a health Pakistan. If they all are under the radar then they can not run form the taxes. This is quite plausible but not in the present situation but in lets say 5-7 years down the line. Also this has to be across the board i.e both boys and girls so adequate laws need to be made in simpler terms a complete revamp of the entire system which is not possible.

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## Khafee

pakistanipower said:


> ??? sorry @Khafee


InShaAllah before that. i.e. <24mnths

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## MystryMan

pakistanipower said:


> Are you asking a question or telling me @MystryMan


Just saying it might be like that. I'm not an insider. The no's may change but hopefully we'll see Blk72 in PAF.

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## TsAr

pakistanipower said:


> tell me that You have the better source than @Khafee he is professional member here and he is more reliable then you @TheTallGuy


Why do you always have to argue, this is an open forum , a member asked tallguy for information which he provided, what's the point in argument.

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## New World

kaif786 said:


> wat r u saying brother?? u shud recognise we Indian muslims r true ruler of south asian muslims the real Successors of mughals u pakistan muslims r our brothers but ultimately our subjects



first get yourself freed from Hindutva gangs..

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## aliyusuf

kaif786 said:


> see i am friendly here but dont forget pakistani place in hierarchy of muslims, u ppl were never rulers of anything we Indian muslims r successors of mughals u got pakistan through british, and once Indian muslims will rise pakistani and bangla muslims will be treated as brothers but only as subjects we wil b the rulers, and pakistani muslims r treated everywhere as 2nd tier only .. muslims world knows this so when it will cone to it Indian muslims will be the ones





Khafee said:


> @The Eagle @Dubious Thread ban pls - another idiot high on the yellow elixr, derailing the tread with his delusional crap.


@Khafee Sahib, I think we should be more gentle in our dealings with the psychologically deranged.

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## TheTallGuy

Khafee said:


> Personification of Chawal.



basmati or sela?

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## Khafee

TheTallGuy said:


> basmati or sela?


Wait for a few days....

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## TheTallGuy

@Khafee "the hidden"

Under the situation we are in i am afraid we will fight with what we have...Monkey is about to jump the wall

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## aliyusuf

TheTallGuy said:


> @Khafee "the hidden"
> 
> Under the situation we are in i am afraid we will fight with what we have...Monkey is about to jump the wall



Might not be a good move for the monkey.

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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> @Khafee "the hidden"
> 
> Under the situation we are in i am afraid we will fight with what we have...Monkey is about to jump the wall


Why youv have such a false ego that your false educated guess always correct, a educated guess remains only guess @TheTallGuy If you have better source then @Khafee then kindly provides us or gives us a hint about it where do get this information for 36 F-16 Block 72 it is from PAF higher commands or some random source which are unreliable @TheTallGuy


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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> Why you such a false ego that your false educated guess always correct, a educated guess remains only guess @TheTallGuy If you have better source then @Khafee then kindly provides us or gives us a hint about it where do get this information for 36 F-16 Block 72 it is from PAF higher commands or some random source which are unreliable @TheTallGuy



Bhai Sb, you be happy with 18-24 i be happy with 36

Funny side - Remember Topgun? I will tell you but then i have to kill you!

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## Blueskiez 2001

TheTallGuy said:


> Bhai Sb, you be happy with 18-24 i be happy with 36
> 
> Funny side - Remember Topgun? I will tell you but then i have to kill you!



Yeah and the lady he said that too had a higher security clearance then Tom had....

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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> Bhai Sb, you be happy with 18-24 i be happy with 36
> 
> Funny side - Remember Topgun? I will tell you but then i have to kill you!


it not about we talking about 18-24 or 36 even i am happy that Pakistan can get have 100 F-16 Block 72, its about information/facts @Khafee has a some insider information/facts because he is the professional member, he can access to some inside information, and you have not @TheTallGuy


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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> it not about we talking about 18-24 or 36 even i am happy that Pakistan can get have 100 F-16 Block 72, its about information/facts @Khafee has a some insider information/facts because he is the professional member, he can access to some inside information, and you have not @TheTallGuy



True! absolutely true!

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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> True! absolutely true!


So why you telling us that we are able to get 36 Block 72 instead of 18-24 as per @Khafee if you have a better source than @Khafee then kindly gives us a hints that what your sources, i am just asking that @TheTallGuy


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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> So why you telling us that we are able to get 36 Block 72 instead of 18-24 as per @Khafee if you have a better source than @Khafee then kindly gives us a hints that what your sources, i am just asking that @TheTallGuy



Meray Piyaray Hoshyar Chanda, Can we agree to disagree...

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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> Meray Piyaray Hoshyar Chanda, Can we agree to disagree...


So that means you have no source and just blabbering about @TheTallGuy


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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> So that means you have no source and just blabbering about @TheTallGuy



No I dont have source and i am a looney poster engaged in stupid nonsense bickering over revealing the source of data that is translated in to information with you!

Its better Ignore me!

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## TheTallGuy

pakistanipower said:


> Then we will go with @Khafee projections he is reliable then you, your whole life is nonsense @TheTallGuy



i can only smile at you brother!

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## araz

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> During 1965 war Ayub Khan wanted this but Bhutto was in favour of Hur (free men). Even today this is possible but we would require some sort of structure from start i.e all births should be in hospitals and every child under state care which should have medical, physical & mental fitness along with education so that we have a health Pakistan. If they all are under the radar then they can not run form the taxes. This is quite plausible but not in the present situation but in lets say 5-7 years down the line. Also this has to be across the board i.e both boys and girls so adequate laws need to be made in simpler terms a complete revamp of the entire system which is not possible.


I agree it should be structured and gradually built up both for boys and girls. The military can set up criteria of people who cn do certain exercises and have a certain amount of IQ. There may have to be tough physicals as well so we take the most healthy lot to begin with. However this idea is a thread in its own rights and we should discuss it separately.
A


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## Ultima Thule

TheTallGuy said:


> i can only smile at you brother!


Because you're retard/paranoid that's why you smiling on me @TheTallGuy


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## Basel

@The Eagle @waz clean this thread from off topic posts or change the title of this thread.

@Khafee why you are allowed to leak such important information if its true??? That kind of info are kept secret till its done deal and ready to be signed by both sides.

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## Humble Analyst

araz said:


> It was tried in the 70s and like most of Idiot Bhutto's ideas failed miserably. There is general sense in this idea but the numbers are so huge and the requirements for training and equipment are so large and labour intensive Pakistan Army just cannot cope.
> There could be a way where every year the army chooses to recruit say X K number of cadets and takes them through the army schools system as cadets. These cadets should be picked up at year 8 after fitness testing, go through metric and intermediate education. They should then be given a choice of either branching out into areas of their interests or going into Police and Army or other fields where the armed forces have use of them. If they choose the later their education is free provided they keep certain education, moral and physical standards. They can go on periodical training and complete their education. This would require a lot of arrangements which the army might not want to engage in as they already have enough recruits. However the training in an army environment will do wonders for these children and their general fitness and development. Plus the character building will eventually do wonders for the society at large.
> 
> A


I have been with cadets who started in 8th grade and most of them were frustrated with living in boardings for a long time. Not all but quite a few became crooks wanted to leave service etc. I am talking about them in their semi final terms and a lot of those guys had lost motivation to pass out.

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## denel

If I am add something additional, will there be clearance given to PAF pilots to fly Turkish F-16s; those too were barred; will this restriction be taken off?

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## araz

pakistanipower said:


> So that means you have no source and just blabbering about @TheTallGuy


At the moment with all due respect to all posters there is nothing concrete that has come out of official channels. So one poster is no better than another poster. Let us wait and see how this transpires. We are grateful to all who bring their information /ideas to the fore but the news can only be confirmed and acknowledged once announced by official channels. Even @Khafee has suggested 18 to 24 new ones and 20 from old stock so let us see how this transpires.
A



Humble Analyst said:


> I have been with cadets who started in 8th grade and most of them were frustrated with living in boardings for a long time. Not all but quite a few became crooks wanted to leave service etc. I am talking about them in their semi final terms and a lot of those guys had lost motivation to pass out.


As I said this needs further discussions in an appropriate forum. Lets set up a thread and we can discuss it there. We are derailing this one.
Regards
A

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## Ultima Thule

araz said:


> At the moment with all due respect to all posters there is nothing concrete that has come out of official channels. So one poster is no better than another poster. Let us wait and see how this transpires. We are grateful to all who bring their information /ideas to the fore but the news can only be confirmed and acknowledged once announced by official channels. Even @Khafee has suggested 18 to 24 new ones and 20 from old stock so let us see how this transpires.
> A


More reliable then some random common members here, Because he is professional he has some inside infomation sir that why he claims that he just gave us a hint only @araz sir


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## araz

pakistanipower said:


> More reliable then some random common members here, Because he is professional he has some inside infomation sir that why he claims that he just gave us a hint only @araz sir


It is a case of some known knowns and some unknown knowns. He has just not let his cards come on the table but as I have said this remains a piece of news which needs confirmation from official channels.
A

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## New World

denel said:


> If I am add something additional, will there be clearance given to PAF pilots to fly Turkish F-16s; those too were barred; will this restriction be taken off?



If PAF get blk70 than there is no point to refrain PAF pilots from flying Turkish jets.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

New World said:


> If PAF get blk70 than there is no point to refrain PAF pilots from flying Turkish jets.


more likely UAE block 60's


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## denel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> more likely UAE block 60's


Are they retiring blk60s'?


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## ACE OF THE AIR

denel said:


> Are they retiring blk60s'?


No. 
PAF pilots are not allowed to fly the UAE F-16 block 60's same as Turkish block 40's. So once we get block 70 or V upgrades then these restrictions would not continue.

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## loanranger

kaif786 said:


> we wil b the rulers, and pakistani muslims r treated everywhere as 2nd tier only .. muslims world knows this so when it will cone to it Indian muslims will be the ones


How do plan on getting nukes you "indian muslims" ? Pakistan is very well respected. It is the strongest muslim army in the world. Jis ki lathi uski bhains.
If you really are a indian muslim then there is something seriously wrong with you enjoy being lynched in India.....

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## Vortex

loanranger said:


> How do plan on getting nukes you "indian muslims" ? Pakistan is very well respected. It is the strongest muslim army in the world. Jis ki lathi uski bhains.
> If you really are a indian muslim then there is something seriously wrong with you enjoy being lynched in India.....



there are sadistic people and... there are masochist one...


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## The Eagle

loanranger said:


> How do plan on getting nukes you "indian muslims" ? Pakistan is very well respected. It is the strongest muslim army in the world. Jis ki lathi uski bhains.
> If you really are a indian muslim then there is something seriously wrong with you enjoy being lynched in India.....



There are lot kumars pretending to be Junaid or Shelpa pretending to Sakina Begum, in the end they all give away themselves.

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## zulu

@Khafee @Tps43 US forces start packing in AFG confirm(even Washington post did report on it 2 days ago) .wahan sy kuch jo kaam kaa aur pakra ja sakta hu???doing an favor to US un gareebon ka wapas lay jaany ka kharcha bach jana hai

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## Khafee

zulu said:


> @Khafee @Tps43 US forces start packing in AFG confirm(even Washington post did report on it 2 days ago) .wahan sy kuch jo kaam kaa aur pakra ja sakta hu???doing an favor to US un gareebon ka wapas lay jaany ka kharcha bach jana hai


Q kabiryae ki dukan kholni hai?

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## Pakistani Fighter

The Eagle said:


> There are lot kumars pretending to be Junaid or Shelpa pretending to Sakina Begum, in the end they all give away themselves.


Shelpa aur Shilpa?

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## zulu

chaly gaa  kuch ARMY ka bhi dekh lu all u people seeing for PAF and PA,NAVY singing in course""hum bhi tu paray hain rahooon main """ 


Khafee said:


> Q kabiryae ki dukan kholni hai?

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## HRK

mingle said:


> AH1w cobras as many as we can would be good to replace our older cobras or we can let those old ones to FC along Hinds


who is offering us AH-1w .....???

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## Metanoia

Khafee said:


> Q kabiryae ki dukan kholni hai?



@Khafee can you please reply to my post bro

PAF F16-Blk70 coming - PDF Exclusive

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## mingle

HRK said:


> who is offering us AH-1w .....???


I read here on this thread take debate further


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## Humble Analyst

Khafee said:


> Q kabiryae ki dukan kholni hai?


Haha


----------



## HRK

mingle said:


> I read here on this thread take debate further


As per my understanding @Khafee and @Oscar only talked about those AH-1Z which are put on hold not about AH-1w.

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## SQ8

HRK said:


> As per my understanding @Khafee and @Oscar only talked about those AH-1Z which are put on hold not about AH-1w.


No Ah-1Ws are anywhere on the official radar.

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## Super Falcon

Hope weget new block F 16 but probleum is US may be pressuring india to buy new ones so they stop selling to pak

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## SecularNationalist

So currently they are the most advanced version of F-16?

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## Code_Geass

I dint think indians are interested in f-16/f-21 anymore


Super Falcon said:


> Hope weget new block F 16 but probleum is US may be pressuring india to buy new ones so they stop selling to pak

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## Armchair

araz said:


> It was tried in the 70s and like most of Idiot Bhutto's ideas failed miserably. There is general sense in this idea but the numbers are so huge and the requirements for training and equipment are so large and labour intensive Pakistan Army just cannot cope.
> There could be a way where every year the army chooses to recruit say X K number of cadets and takes them through the army schools system as cadets. These cadets should be picked up at year 8 after fitness testing, go through metric and intermediate education. They should then be given a choice of either branching out into areas of their interests or going into Police and Army or other fields where the armed forces have use of them. If they choose the later their education is free provided they keep certain education, moral and physical standards. They can go on periodical training and complete their education. This would require a lot of arrangements which the army might not want to engage in as they already have enough recruits. However the training in an army environment will do wonders for these children and their general fitness and development. Plus the character building will eventually do wonders for the society at large.
> 
> A



An insane post, sorry to say. Anyone who has studied conscription will laugh their heads of reading this.


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## Cookie Monster

This shift in the stance towards Pak...providing with block 70/72 F16s, and AH1Z...does this mean that the engines for T129 might also be provided to Turkey so Pak can have T129s?

@Khafee @Oscar @Quwa

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## Khafee

Metanoia said:


> @Khafee This is just my opinion, but is it perhaps that certain GCC countries have realised that until or unless Pakistan's own defence needs are not fulfilled vis-a-vis our neighbours (primarily India), Pakistan may never be able to disengage and help them in their time of need? Hence, we may potentially see them funding these big ticket items?


Give me a day, will PM you.

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## Syed1.

Could the recent escalation by India be linked to PAF potentially getting the most potent F-16 out there?

The block 70/72 can not only kill the Rafale, it can bury it and hold funeral proceeding. Specially in the hands of a PAF pilot a F-16 BLK 70/72 will be very difficult opponent.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Syed1. said:


> Could the recent escalation by India be linked to PAF potentially getting the most potent F-16 out there?
> 
> The block 70/72 can not only kill the Rafale, it can bury it and hold funeral proceeding. Specially in the hands of a PAF pilot a F-16 BLK 70/72 will be very difficult opponent.


NO
It only is showing how desperate the internal situation in India is at the moment.

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## mingle

HRK said:


> As per my understanding @Khafee and @Oscar only talked about those AH-1Z which are put on hold not about AH-1w.





ACE OF THE AIR said:


> NO
> It only is showing how desperate the internal situation in India is at the moment.


Theior economy is Tanking


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## messiach

Source!


Syed1. said:


> Could the recent escalation by India be linked to PAF potentially getting the most potent F-16 out there?
> 
> The block 70/72 can not only kill the Rafale, it can bury it and hold funeral proceeding. Specially in the hands of a PAF pilot a F-16 BLK 70/72 will be very difficult opponent.

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## araz

Armchair said:


> An insane post, sorry to say. Anyone who has studied conscription will laugh their heads of reading this.


You are entitled to your view point. I merely suggested a way out of the insanity of the Bhutto era. This by the way is not conscription but the formula the British Territorial army employs. So in exchange for the duty they take care of your educational requirements. If you want to opt out you pay the cost of the education or serve X number of years and then you are free.

A

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## 帅的一匹

USA is selling both sides

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Give me a day, will PM you.



Please do also PM me some goodies

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> Its highly unlikely that they'll be able to produce that many jet (only) for Pakistan by 2020. Chances are slim to none.
> 
> Bahrain is the launch customer for the Block 72, and I doubt they just want a couple to start off with.
> 
> *Q.* With the assembly line moving off to South Carolina, how many jets can they produce in a 1 Year?
> 
> @Khafee @TheTallGuy @Irfan Baloch


If we look at it from another angle, that'd be a couple extra years for the PAF to scrounge up cash for the purchases.

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## Mav3rick

Syed1. said:


> Could the recent escalation by India be linked to PAF potentially getting the most potent F-16 out there?
> 
> The block 70/72 can not only kill the Rafale, it can bury it and hold funeral proceeding. Specially in the hands of a PAF pilot a F-16 BLK 70/72 will be very difficult opponent.



There is patriotism ........ and then there is madness. What you have posted is a step further up the ladder. A sweeping statement that the Block-70/72 can kill the Rafale as if Rafale is a sitting duck and not already the most advanced 4.5++ Gen fighter out there which is further armed with the most potent BVRAAM.

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## MIRauf

Hypothetically speaking, let say that for reason xyz the F-16 deal breaks down, is there contingency plan for something like EFT ? Since brother(s) are paying for it, does it have to be F-16 ?


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## خره مينه لګته وي

MIRauf said:


> let say that for reason xyz the F-16 deal breaks down,


except Russian & Chinese Options there is none....
• Russians wont sell any type of advance fighter Jets which poses threat to india example Su35..
• Chinese Options are available for filling the immediate gaps in medium sized fighter jets like J10c & heavy weight options which (Chinese) they're producing under license will be hard to acquire bcz of Russians & i guess there are some Agreements regarding exports to 3rd party.. 
chinese origin 5th gen Aircraft J20 - they wont sell it to us...& another stealth aircraft J31 is still under going tests & I think it is not a priority right now in immediate future...




MIRauf said:


> is there contingency plan for something like EFT ?


if F16 deal doesn't go through which I think it wont & we will not be getting the latest blocks and USA can also block this (EFT) option for us through his Allies I.e not to sell it to Pakistan as many European countries jointly funded this project -- & its super expensive... so I dont think Pakistan will buy EFT..

other knowledgeable members can help you better on this issue


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## LKJ86

خره مينه لګته وي said:


> which (Chinese) they're producing under license


What license?

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## Fawad alam

PTI government tried hard to take Trump's favor and now we realize that all the Kashmir mediation and Block-70 etc drama was to divert Pakistan from China and now China will not support us like before in any crisis,
My opinion


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## Code_Geass

I think you're wrong..

If only our relations with china that weak..


Fawad alam said:


> PTI government tried hard to take Trump's favor and now we realize that all the Kashmir mediation and Block-70 etc drama was to divert Pakistan from China and now China will not support us like before in any crisis,
> My opinion


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## Fawad alam

Code_Geass said:


> I think you're wrong..
> 
> If only our relations with china that weak..


Every big problem is starting with small miss understanding and If China feels less confident with us then he will reduce our support first, Do you believe that we will get Block-70 or Trump will mediate?


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## Armchair

araz said:


> You are entitled to your view point. I merely suggested a way out of the insanity of the Bhutto era. This by the way is not conscription but the formula the British Territorial army employs. So in exchange for the duty they take care of your educational requirements. If you want to opt out you pay the cost of the education or serve X number of years and then you are free.
> 
> A



What you responded to was a discussion of bringing conscription. If you do not know what that is, and how that is conducted, perhaps it would have been better if you hadn't responded. If you wish to discuss other things, please do so, but it confuses the subject when you interject with something else. Hope to see your productive input in the future.


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## Flight of falcon

Fawad alam said:


> Every big problem is starting with small miss understanding and If China feels less confident with us then he will reduce our support first, Do you believe that we will get Block-70 or Trump will mediate?




China is not your girl friend that little misunderstandings , if any, will make them turn 180 degree...

China understands that we have our own strategic interests and they realize we are becoming more independent and thinking out of box under IK. 

It’s like asking China to prove their friendship to us by ending trade with India.... they would be like why?

Same in our relationship with the USA. We have helped China expand their foot prints to Afghanistan through their open contacts with Talibans and interest in reaching Central Asia. They will never forget our favours and we should never forget theirs .

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## Fawad alam

Flight of falcon said:


> China is not your girl friend that little misunderstandings , if any, will make them turn 180 degree...
> 
> China understands that we have our own strategic interests and they realize we are becoming more independent and thinking out of box under IK.
> 
> It’s like asking China to prove their friendship to us by ending trade with India.... they would be like why?
> 
> Same in our relationship with the USA. We have helped China expand their foot prints to Afghanistan through their open contacts with Talibans and interest in reaching Central Asia. They will never forget our favours and we should never forget theirs .


Your Strategic interests with US are only based on illusions and wet dreams, we will never get any Block-70 and if we reduce CPEC and military support with China for the sake of wet US dreams then you will see the results, still our relations are good with China but sorry no comments appeared from China today.

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## Pakistansdefender

Fawad alam said:


> PTI government tried hard to take Trump's favor and now we realize that all the Kashmir mediation and Block-70 etc drama was to divert Pakistan from China and now China will not support us like before in any crisis,
> My opinion


Kahan kahan se a jata hain tum jaisa log. Kuch pata bhi hai . You are becoming a colony of china . China has not done fair deals with you . 
Aur khabhi zindagi main research nhn ki . They are looking to remove article 370 for 50 years. And last 5 years they tried really hard . 
And their economy is going down and election in 5 states is going to come. 
So they did this action now when they have support . 
Shame please do some research . 
Don't make conspiracies as if we already have many.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> An insane post, sorry to say. Anyone who has studied conscription will laugh their heads of reading this.


Nothing wrong with conscription. I was conscripted and had excellent experience and continued on in multiple fields. However some people dont; this does not mean it is bad. Many of my units were still 18 when they showed up; after 2 years they left well trained and disciplined. Some never made it thru.

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## Sine Nomine

Fawad alam said:


> Your Strategic interests with US are only based on illusions and wet dreams, we will never get any Block-70 and if we reduce CPEC and military support with China for the sake of wet US dreams then you will see the results, still our relations are good with China but sorry no comments appeared from China today.


US is our largest tarde partner and 2nd is EU and both of them have largest FDI in Pakistan.


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## Flight of falcon

Fawad alam said:


> Your Strategic interests with US are only based on illusions and wet dreams, we will never get any Block-70 and if we reduce CPEC and military support with China for the sake of wet US dreams then you will see the results, still our relations are good with China but sorry no comments appeared from China today.




Our contacts with China are too deep. You need not to worry.
Getting 20 new planes is not something China will care about or have any business to interfere. This argument is silly

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Now that India is heating up Kashmir it makes the US policymakers even more nervous!!! So, anything is possible...

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## خره مينه لګته وي

LKJ86 said:


> What license?


oh my bad, I thought J-11 fighter jets are produced under license...


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## denel

خره مينه لګته وي said:


> oh my bad, I thought J-11 fighter jets are produced under license...


the deal with moscow is j-11s will not be exported.

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## Fawad alam

Pakistansdefender said:


> Kahan kahan se a jata hain tum jaisa log. Kuch pata bhi hai . You are becoming a colony of china . China has not done fair deals with you .
> Aur khabhi zindagi main research nhn ki . They are looking to remove article 370 for 50 years. And last 5 years they tried really hard .
> And their economy is going down and election in 5 states is going to come.
> So they did this action now when they have support .
> Shame please do some research .
> Don't make conspiracies as if we already have many.


O Bhai mainay kab kaha kay China fair deal kar raha hay, tum to zati hamlay kar rahay ho, magar diplomacy interests par chalti hay fair dealing kahin nahin hoti, Kia US nay kabhi fair dealing ki hay Pakistan say agar thori research aap bhi karlo to shayad aap ko bhi sharam aajaye.


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## خره مينه لګته وي

denel said:


> the deal with moscow is j-11s will not be exported.


ahan okay :')


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## LKJ86

خره مينه لګته وي said:


> oh my bad, I thought J-11 fighter jets are produced under license...


Only Su-27SK/J-11 was produced under license.
J-11B, J-11BS, J-11D, J-15, and J-16 produced by SAC have nothing to do with Russia.

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## خره مينه لګته وي

LKJ86 said:


> Only Su-27SK/J-11 was produced under license.
> J-11B, J-11BS, J-11D, J-15, and J-16 produced by SAC have nothing to do with Russia.


Got it :")



Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Those 20 planes are coming at the expense of CPEC. It was also one of the conditions set by the IMF to reveal full investment details of CPEC before the US approves IMF loans. Westernized PTI thought, there's nothing wrong with that and China won't mind.


What is your source that China didn't like the details of investment being shared with IMF ?? 
i would say it's better to forge a relationship with everyone on equal basis...China is our ally & will remain our first choice no matter who comes to power in Pakistan...
wherever Imran Khan goes he praises China even in USA he did so..

cpec 2nd phase will start soon & these conspiracies will die with it...

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## denel

LKJ86 said:


> Only Su-27SK/J-11 was produced under license.
> J-11B, J-11BS, J-11D, J-15, and J-16 produced by SAC have nothing to do with Russia.


yes but there is understanding they cannot export these.

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## Armchair

denel said:


> Nothing wrong with conscription. I was conscripted and had excellent experience and continued on in multiple fields. However some people dont; this does not mean it is bad. Many of my units were still 18 when they showed up; after 2 years they left well trained and disciplined. Some never made it thru.



Yes, and at a time when war is imminent, it is vital I feel for Pakistan to conscript a few divisions to supplement our present armed forces. We simply don't have the money for a larger military force on 100 percent professional grounds.

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## Aamir Hussain

araz said:


> You are entitled to your view point. I merely suggested a way out of the insanity of the Bhutto era. This by the way is not conscription but the formula the British Territorial army employs. So in exchange for the duty they take care of your educational requirements. If you want to opt out you pay the cost of the education or serve X number of years and then you are free.
> 
> A


The same is in USA. US Army, Navy, & Air force ROTC (Reserve Officers Training Corps.) pay for your Bachelors Degree while you study in University and take Military Science courses and attend Training Camps in summer. By the time you finish your degree, you are commissioned as a 2nd Lt. You get your degree and a commission! I too went through this program but without the commission. BTW more officer are commissioned through ROTC program then through the academy in US Armed Forces!!!



Armchair said:


> Yes, and at a time when war is imminent, it is vital I feel for Pakistan to conscript a few divisions to supplement our present armed forces. We simply don't have the money for a larger military force on 100 percent professional grounds.


We have 2 divisions worth of jihadis waiting in the wings!!

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## Trailer23

Ever since @Khafee started this Topic, i've been working on a side project & thought i'd unleash it on 14th of August .

I thought, i'd come down here & get his blessing with the go ahead - as I know some of you enjoy my Video Edits.
@_Sherdils_ @loanranger @mingle @Path-Finder @war&peace @Hodor

I've already completed the Editing, and now i'm just working on the titles & final touches to make certain its P-E-R-F-E-C-T.

So, as its his News, i'll wait for a '' from his end...or...I suppose, i'll just keep it with some other unfinished projects.

Below is a Print Screen from the actual project...

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## Vapnope

F16s are coming just like the mediation of Trump. 

Toothless toys will be in our arsenal soon..

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## mingle

Vapnope said:


> F16s are coming just like the mediation of Trump.
> 
> Toothless toys will be in our arsenal soon..


Which toy U want Sir?? Name few

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## Riz

mingle said:


> Which toy U want Sir?? Name few


Pee rakhi ha saeeen na..

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## TheTallGuy

As i said earlier we shall fight the war with what we have...unfortunately do not expect any help from anybody...i mean anybody including Muslim countries.. we are alone to fight this war and Insha Allah we will win it!

Allah Pakistan ka hami o Nasir Ho!

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## Armchair

Aamir Hussain said:


> We have 2 divisions worth of jihadis waiting in the wings!!



2 divisions is very little bro, its that 30-40k. What we were planning and discussing @Signalian knows a bit about this, was something closer to 10-20 new divisions.

We were looking at the details of how we could raise these numbers at the lowest cost and most efficiently, particularly in terms of financial resources. 

Imagine if the calculations I made are right and we can raise these numbers at minimal cost in 3-5 years. Our ability to find a military solution to the Kashmir problem suddenly comes wide open.

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## TheTallGuy

Armchair said:


> 2 divisions is very little bro, its that 30-40k. What we were planning and discussing @Signalian knows a bit about this, was something closer to 10-20 new divisions.
> 
> We were looking at the details of how we could raise these numbers at the lowest cost and most efficiently, particularly in terms of financial resources.
> 
> Imagine if the calculations I made are right and we can raise these numbers at minimal cost in 3-5 years. Our ability to find a military solution to the Kashmir problem suddenly comes wide open.



Insha Allah irregular forces will not be required...I believe our armed forces are enough to take the war to dehli and i mean dehli on there own.

May Allah help us all!

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## 帅的一匹

Fawad alam said:


> Your Strategic interests with US are only based on illusions and wet dreams, we will never get any Block-70 and if we reduce CPEC and military support with China for the sake of wet US dreams then you will see the results, still our relations are good with China but sorry no comments appeared from China today.


Dear brother, China has no problem if PAF inducts F16blk70 from USA. After all, Pakistan can't cut relationship with USA, actually no one in this world can do it, including China. Remember Pakistan has JF17 for diversification, so no worries.

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## Armchair

TheTallGuy said:


> Insha Allah irregular forces will not be required...I believe our armed forces are enough to take the war to dehli and i mean dehli on there own.
> 
> May Allah help us all!



I know I can trust your info, and I am happy we have a plan. 

I would still be happier if we could raise 10 more divisions using conscription. Acting as defensive and reserve forces. We as a nation, once a decision is made that we will go to war x years from now, need to learn the art of gearing up the nation. Gearing up military production. Galvanizing the "nation at war" concept we have always missed in the past.

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## TheTallGuy

Armchair said:


> I know I can trust your info, and I am happy we have a plan.
> 
> I would still be happier if we could raise 10 more divisions using conscription. Acting as defensive and reserve forces. We as a nation, once a decision is made that we will go to war x years from now, need to learn the art of gearing up the nation. Gearing up military production. Galvanizing the "nation at war" concept we have always missed in the past.



These plans require time and time is luxury which Pakistan armed forces not have..

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## Armchair

TheTallGuy said:


> These plans require time and time is luxury which Pakistan armed forces not have..



On balance you're right, war may break out in the next 3 months, within this year. I imagine the probability of this is as high as 80%. Being the armchair general that I am, I was just hoping this was the ripe time for my pipe dream to become reality.

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## TheTallGuy

Armchair said:


> war may break out in the next 3 months, within this year



I dont think its that far ..i dont want to sensationalize but i think its around the corner.



Armchair said:


> I know I can trust your info



dude! i dont trust my info - why should u? i am no different just a normal car salesman brother...who happened to have knack of been proved correct...recently

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## Dil Pakistan

I don't think there will be any war.

This is because, a war goes against the strategy of PA to deal with India.

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## Path-Finder

Just to throw my own spanner in the mix, maybe a parallel development can take place with a custom J10 for Pakistan built to spec similar to blk 70+ F16! That way F16 can be brought in only when needed and bulk of the flying will be handled by J10.


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## Irfan Baloch

Armchair said:


> An insane post, sorry to say. Anyone who has studied conscription will laugh their heads of reading this.


When you done laughing 
Open a new thread and make your case


I am interested

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## mingle

@Khafee US taliban deal is expected at around 13 August

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## BRAVO_

so after 122 pages what is the conclusion of this thread??? Block 70 is coming or what??? by the way at start of this thread i pointed out that it will never happened and i provided the reasons and now today when india terminated the special status of Kashmir, we saw American silence, not only this today IMF has informed pakistan that incase of failure of not exiting the FATF gray list, foreign financing assurances could suffer.

according to indian sources their foreign minster S J Shankar had already given briefing to mike pompeo regarding the oblation of articles 370 and 35.

when all this was happening behind the close doors .. our members were busy in watching dreams of Block 70, and when i pointed out the facts and some admin give me plus rating few guys starting bashing the admin  .... and he revert back his decision saying it was a mistake ... who was at mistake i guess now sensible people will understand. 

Pakistan must come out with its own solutions, should work with friendly nations for development of our own military solutions and this is one dignified way to survive

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## GriffinsRule

We just saw who from the OIC countries attended the special meeting on Kashmir (hint, no one prominent). On top, when our supposed 'brotherly' countries come out and say its Indias internal matter, they can go **** themselves. This also makes me think either that Khaffes news is completely wrong or Pakistan already knew and has sold IOK Kashmir for a measly few billion dollars. 

We will get the Cobras and associated equipment due to our role in the Afghan peace deal with money held up from the CSF and that would be it. 

If we can then get on the job of improving our industrial output and increasing trade with the US and China, we will soon be able to buy whatever we want with our own money, as it should be.


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## Flight of falcon

GriffinsRule said:


> We just saw who from the OIC countries attended the special meeting on Kashmir (hint, no one prominent). On top, when our supposed 'brotherly' countries come out and say its Indias internal matter, they can go **** themselves. This also makes me think either that Khaffes news is completely wrong or Pakistan already knew and has sold IOK Kashmir for a measly few billion dollars.
> 
> We will get the Cobras and associated equipment due to our role in the Afghan peace deal with money held up from the CSF and that would be it.
> 
> If we can then get on the job of improving our industrial output and increasing trade with the US and China, we will soon be able to buy whatever we want with our own money, as it should be.





India’s Kashmir move is to show their extreme displeasure to America over two recent happenings:

First they want to show middle finger to America and Trump specifically for suggesting that he can mediate this conflict.... if Trump thought the problem was complicated before try fixing it now.

Secondly India is showing its extreme displeasure for selling out Afghanistan to Pakistan. Indians are left behind like a used toilet paper and they cannot help but feel humiliated to the max. They are not even given the job of observer in Taliban talks organized by Pakistanis.

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## GriffinsRule

Flight of falcon said:


> India’s Kashmir move is to show their extreme displeasure to America over two recent happenings:
> 
> First they want to show middle finger to America and Trump specifically for suggesting that he can mediate this conflict.... if Trump thought the problem was complicated before try fixing it now.
> 
> Secondly India is showing its extreme displeasure for selling out Afghanistan to Pakistan. Indians are left behind like a used toilet paper and they cannot help but feel humiliated to the max. They are not even given the job of observer in Taliban talks organized by Pakistanis.



Apparently the Americans already knew what India was up to before hand and might have even told as much to Pakistan. Maybe the timing took us by surprise but I am fairly certain Indians had American blessings ... they don't have what it takes to show a finger to Uncle Sam.


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## batmannow

BRAVO_ said:


> so after 122 pages what is the conclusion of this thread??? Block 70 is coming or what??? by the way at start of this thread i pointed out that it will never happened and i provided the reasons and now today when india terminated the special status of Kashmir, we saw American silence, not only this today IMF has informed pakistan that incase of failure of not exiting the FATF gray list, foreign financing assurances could suffer.
> 
> according to indian sources their foreign minster S J Shankar had already given briefing to mike pompeo regarding the oblation of articles 370 and 35.
> 
> when all this was happening behind the close doors .. our members were busy in watching dreams of Block 70, and when i pointed out the facts and some admin give me plus rating few guys starting bashing the admin  .... and he revert back his decision saying it was a mistake ... who was at mistake i guess now sensible people will understand.
> 
> Pakistan must come out with its own solutions, should work with friendly nations for development of our own military solutions and this is one dignified way to survive


Hope all those dam tactics would hve won Americans Vietnam War???
War only can be won by passion, not because of having dam huge economy, with F 16s or without F16S if there is passion to fight for freedom thn there is nothing stopping, winning a war????
I can understand, ur fear of the backlash from pak on all sides in India, bt with right to freedom of kashmiris, and khalistan will let ur so called economy bend like a bitch


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## BRAVO_

batmannow said:


> Hope all those dam tactics would hve won Americans Vietnam War???
> War only can be won by passion, not because of having dam huge economy, with F 16s or without F16S if there is passion to fight for freedom thn there is nothing stopping, winning a war????
> I can understand, ur fear of the backlash from pak on all sides in India, bt with right to freedom of kashmiris, and khalistan will let ur so called economy bend like a bitch


i am not worried about war with india since it is not going to happened any time soon .. but my post was a message for those who were dreaming to have F-16 Block 70 in our arsenal


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## Arulmozhi Varman

Flight of falcon said:


> India’s Kashmir move is to show their extreme displeasure to America over two recent happenings:
> 
> First they want to show middle finger to America and Trump specifically for suggesting that he can mediate this conflict.... if Trump thought the problem was complicated before try fixing it now.
> 
> Secondly India is showing its extreme displeasure for selling out Afghanistan to Pakistan. Indians are left behind like a used toilet paper and they cannot help but feel humiliated to the max. They are not even given the job of observer in Taliban talks organized by Pakistanis.



The one who got trolled here is Pakistan and nobody else. Trump royally trolled your PM IK. India had this plan since February this year and informed US of its plan. No reaction from them. Trump never cared. Nobody can take a decision in 15 days. This was in works for the last 5-6 months. Only pigeon sized brained people will think its an reaction to some statements made 15 days back. 

As always he slept through the briefing and he had no idea on what Art370 is and thought India is asking for mediating on Kashmir. And then came our decision by informing US and P5 nations and GCC nations. US maintained silence. If anything IK sold this issue for 125 million dollars and probably another 3-4B dollars for Afghan solving issue. 

Pakistanis were trolling Indians not so long back. The Troller became the Trolled.


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## mingle

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> The one who got trolled here is Pakistan and nobody else. Trump royally trolled your PM IK. India had this plan since February this year and informed US of its plan. No reaction from them. Trump never cared. Nobody can take a decision in 15 days. This was in works for the last 5-6 months. Only pigeon sized brained people will think its an reaction to some statements made 15 days back.
> 
> As always he slept through the briefing and he had no idea on what Art370 is and thought India is asking for mediating on Kashmir. And then came our decision by informing US and P5 nations and GCC nations. US maintained silence. If anything IK sold this issue for 125 million dollars and probably another 3-4B dollars for Afghan solving issue.
> 
> Pakistanis were trolling Indians not so long back. The Troller became the Trolled.


Only Indians r smart rest of the world is fool. Trump was sleeping when Modi was talking to him grow up little up Indians news papers are talking about knee Jerk reaction by Modi gang and here on PDF an Indian telling Us Trump was sleeping and doesn't care anything. Delusional indians has nothing to celebrate here.



BRAVO_ said:


> so after 122 pages what is the conclusion of this thread??? Block 70 is coming or what??? by the way at start of this thread i pointed out that it will never happened and i provided the reasons and now today when india terminated the special status of Kashmir, we saw American silence, not only this today IMF has informed pakistan that incase of failure of not exiting the FATF gray list, foreign financing assurances could suffer.
> 
> according to indian sources their foreign minster S J Shankar had already given briefing to mike pompeo regarding the oblation of articles 370 and 35.
> 
> when all this was happening behind the close doors .. our members were busy in watching dreams of Block 70, and when i pointed out the facts and some admin give me plus rating few guys starting bashing the admin  .... and he revert back his decision saying it was a mistake ... who was at mistake i guess now sensible people will understand.
> 
> Pakistan must come out with its own solutions, should work with friendly nations for development of our own military solutions and this is one dignified way to survive


Only if Bravo wil pay down payment then blk 70 will come


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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> Wow bro if there is any pigeon brain around it must be Indians. Brick by brick you guys are dismantling your democracy and tearing the very fabric of your existence. India cannot and will not exist if the minorities are not allowed to live peacefully. Muslims are on the receiving end right now and Sikhs are watching and preparing for the worst.
> 
> Look at what you are doing to your population. Feeding them Hindu fundamentalism poison. It will destroy your generations.
> Just when we are realizing and cleaning our home you are washing yours with cow piss and calling it a great country.
> 
> By removing the articles to rule from Kashmir you have taken the lid off of the volcano.
> 
> Pakistan couldn’t ask for anything better. We don’t need to supply them fighters now since every house will produce one. India will never be same again and we will do our part to make sure we set fire to your country like you have never seen before.


I call indians Brown Nazis like or not this Gang left no difference between Nazi Germany and today's India. This hate mongering will consume only indian society and country as whole killing the very reason theior existence as a nation a country. They will know this down the road.

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## Flight of falcon

mingle said:


> I call indians Brown Nazis like or not this Gang left no difference between Nazi Germany and today's India. This hate mongering will consume only one society and country her name is india.




Even during our worse days in Pakistan I always knew that there is nothing more dangerous than marginalizing and discriminating against one particular sect, ethnicity, or religion. There is no turning back .We suffered enormously and now I am watching India implode and cannot help but feat the humanitarian catastrophe that is forming in the world’s most populous nation.

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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> Even during our worse days in Pakistan I always knew that there is nothing more dangerous than marginalizing and discriminating against one particular sect, ethnicity, or religion. There is no turning back .We suffered enormously and now I am watching India implode and cannot help but feat the humanitarian catastrophe that is forming in the world’s most populous nation.


In india ur marginalizing big number about 180 million Muslim along Sikhs and Christians. My sikh neighbours are in deep worry because they were existed about kartarpur corridor now feel in jeopardy. I was watching timesNow mag video was from luknow there were preaching in mosques to buy weapons and how to get license for safety from mobs. Not good this will kill them as society


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## Dazzler

@Khafee

Ive heard from two sources that Zulus are being released for now, more to follow. So at least some of your intel is going to be fulfilled. Coincidentally, PDN also shared this hours ago..

"#Pakistan to receive 12 Bell #AH1Z Viper #AttackHelicopters from the US along with 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II laser-guided air-to-surface missiles. AH-1Z #gunships are powered by two General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines, capable of producing an output of 1,800 hp. They have a maximum take-off weight of 8,390 kg and can carry as many as 16 anti-tank guided missiles. The AH-1Z variants that Pakistan is getting will also come with Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display systems, Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight System, electro-optical and infrared pods, BAE AN/ALE-47 chaff/flare countermeasure dispensers, Northrop AN/APR-39C(v2) radar warning receivers, and Orbital ATK AN/AAR-47 missile warning receivers."

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## mingle

Dazzler said:


> @Khafee
> 
> Ive heard from two sources that Zulus are being released for now, more to follow. So at least some of your intel is going to be fulfilled. Coincidentally, PDN also shared this hours ago..
> 
> <iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https://www.facebook.com/PakistanDevelopmentNews/posts/2404358066316735&width=500" width="500" height="547" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allow="encrypted-media"></iframe>


IA we will get what we after plus we will spank our Nazi neighbours too

According to VOA the deal between US and Talibs is expected around 13 August that's what sources r confirming. Yesterday was checking ZAL twitter he was extremely happy man let's hope for good both Afghanistan and Pakistan

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## Flight of falcon

Dazzler said:


> @Khafee
> 
> Ive heard from two sources that Zulus are being released for now, more to follow. So at least some of your intel is going to be fulfilled. Coincidentally, PDN also shared this hours ago..
> 
> "#Pakistan to receive 12 Bell #AH1Z Viper #AttackHelicopters from the US along with 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II laser-guided air-to-surface missiles. AH-1Z #gunships are powered by two General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines, capable of producing an output of 1,800 hp. They have a maximum take-off weight of 8,390 kg and can carry as many as 16 anti-tank guided missiles. The AH-1Z variants that Pakistan is getting will also come with Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display systems, Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight System, electro-optical and infrared pods, BAE AN/ALE-47 chaff/flare countermeasure dispensers, Northrop AN/APR-39C(v2) radar warning receivers, and Orbital ATK AN/AAR-47 missile warning receivers."




What is PDN?

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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> What is PDN?


Pakistan defence network

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mingle said:


> @Khafee US taliban deal is expected at around 13 August


Thanks to Modi, now the Afgan peace process now looks like a "piece of cake (non veg)"!! Now, the entire world will focus on "the most dangerous place in the world", which has the potential to destroy the world order as we know...

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## Irfan Baloch

Dazzler said:


> @Khafee
> 
> Ive heard from two sources that Zulus are being released for now, more to follow. So at least some of your intel is going to be fulfilled. Coincidentally, PDN also shared this hours ago..
> 
> "#Pakistan to receive 12 Bell #AH1Z Viper #AttackHelicopters from the US along with 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II laser-guided air-to-surface missiles. AH-1Z #gunships are powered by two General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines, capable of producing an output of 1,800 hp. They have a maximum take-off weight of 8,390 kg and can carry as many as 16 anti-tank guided missiles. The AH-1Z variants that Pakistan is getting will also come with Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display systems, Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight System, electro-optical and infrared pods, BAE AN/ALE-47 chaff/flare countermeasure dispensers, Northrop AN/APR-39C(v2) radar warning receivers, and Orbital ATK AN/AAR-47 missile warning receivers."


In case india starts a war then all military sales to Pakistan ( only) will be banned or suspended
There is a real possibility here. Indian have recently stepped up artillery and small arms fire along LOC

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## Pakistani Fighter

@airomerix what is your views on this?


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## Dazzler

Irfan Baloch said:


> In case india starts a war then all military sales to Pakistan ( only) will be banned or suspended
> There is a real possibility here. Indian have recently stepped up artillery and small arms fire along LOC



This time, we can play the hardball with the yankees, the Afghan card is still with us.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Forget American carrots.
Focus on Indian meat.
We are not vegetarians.
Indian blood and meat is our favorite snack.

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## Rehan khan 1

i think all this is coordinated darama of india and america to fool us for the moment for kashmir thing. it also include afgan situation.

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## airomerix

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> @airomerix what is your views on this?



I will only comment on what I'm certain about. 

Pakistan has itself expressed interest in acquiring new F-16s in the recent visit. Not sure about upgradation of current fleet. 

However it comes with a bill attached of $8 Billion which is a far cry atleast for now. I think the total number was 26 or 36 jets. I cant recall. But we have definitely performed an assessment and we find new F-16s as a suitable candidate for our future fighter requirements to counter IAF's rafales. 

And trust me when I say this. F-16 Block 70 is not significantly inferior to rafale. F-16V is a very very mature platform. Zero bugs in its operating system and seamless weapons integration ensure its lethality and survivability against IAF's mixed breed of fighters.

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## Armchair

Irfan Baloch said:


> When you done laughing
> Open a new thread and make your case
> 
> 
> I am interested





airomerix said:


> I will only comment on what I'm certain about.
> 
> Pakistan has itself expressed interest in acquiring new F-16s in the recent visit. Not sure about upgradation of current fleet.
> 
> However it comes with a bill attached of $8 Billion which is a far cry atleast for now. I think the total number was 26 or 36 jets. I cant recall. But we have definitely performed an assessment and we find new F-16s as a suitable candidate for our future fighter requirements to counter IAF's rafales.
> 
> And trust me when I say this. F-16 Block 70 is not significantly inferior to rafale. F-16V is a very very mature platform. Zero bugs in its operating system and seamless weapons integration ensure its lethality and survivability against IAF's mixed breed of fighters.



How do we deal with the range and lethality of the Meteor? F-16, latest blocks are heavier and heavier, with those tiny wings, they have increasingly less agility at high altitude and high speeds. If we are talking about combat above 40,000 feet, the Rafales will trump us even if we have new Vipers.

xxxxxx

This is probably not the time to be indecisive. We should be getting J-10s on an emergency basis. Along with any military equipment we can pick up on the fast.

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## HassanCheema

Pakistan is not sitting idle.there are few prj undergoing to acquire new aircrafts.if Pakistan top brass able to convince on payment.we may get surprise .
There is also Russian factor .ie 27th feb.we have to hide 2nd plane fact for future leverage.

So we have jf17 block 3.chinese.french.russian and f16.

If we play our cards well,we will give really hard to Indians.
Regarding rafale.its not inducted yet.buying and combat ready are totally different ball game.

So please pray to Allah and stop jumping on horses.
Allah will decide what is good for us.

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## princefaisal

Pakistan should immediately procure HQ-16B's and HQ-9s from China


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## Khafee

Dazzler said:


> @Khafee
> 
> Ive heard from two sources that Zulus are being released for now, more to follow. So at least some of your intel is going to be fulfilled. Coincidentally, PDN also shared this hours ago..
> 
> "#Pakistan to receive 12 Bell #AH1Z Viper #AttackHelicopters from the US along with 1,000 AGM-114R Hellfire II laser-guided air-to-surface missiles. AH-1Z #gunships are powered by two General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines, capable of producing an output of 1,800 hp. They have a maximum take-off weight of 8,390 kg and can carry as many as 16 anti-tank guided missiles. The AH-1Z variants that Pakistan is getting will also come with Thales TopOwl helmet-mounted display systems, Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 Target Sight System, electro-optical and infrared pods, BAE AN/ALE-47 chaff/flare countermeasure dispensers, Northrop AN/APR-39C(v2) radar warning receivers, and Orbital ATK AN/AAR-47 missile warning receivers."


My best wishes, on and off the forum are always with Pakistan 

Thank You for the confirmation.



Irfan Baloch said:


> In case india starts a war then all military sales to Pakistan ( only) will be banned or suspended
> There is a real possibility here. Indian have recently stepped up artillery and small arms fire along LOC


You are right to a very great extent, but this time IF GoP plays its cards right i.e. Afg, results could be different.

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## zulu

After 2-3 more #khafeeleaks PDF py bhi yehi slogan chally gaa""""Khafee zinda rahy gaa """  bach ky Bhutto ki tarah baad main tera mazar bhi na banwa dain 


Khafee said:


> My best wishes, on and off the forum are always with Pakistan
> 
> Thank You for the confirmation.
> 
> 
> You are right to a very great extent, but this time IF GoP plays its cards right i.e. Afg, results could be different.

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## Khafee

Armchair said:


> How do we deal with the range and lethality of the Meteor? F-16, latest blocks are heavier and heavier, with those tiny wings, they have increasingly less agility at high altitude and high speeds. If we are talking about combat above 40,000 feet, the Rafales will trump us even if we have new Vipers.
> 
> xxxxxx
> 
> This is probably not the time to be indecisive. We should be getting J-10s on an emergency basis. Along with any military equipment we can pick up on the fast.


Sir, I beg to differ. Aim-120D and Meteor are not generations apart. The diff can be negated through proper planning and training.

2ndly, the UAE opted for the higher thrust GE-132 engines for this very reason. GE engines also have the added advantage of performing well in sandy / dusty conditions, in comparison to PW.

But it seems, as always "commonality" seems to be the objective.

https://www.geaviation.com/sites/default/files/datasheet-F110-GE-132.pdf

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## War Thunder

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> The one who got trolled here is Pakistan and nobody else. Trump royally trolled your PM IK. India had this plan since February this year and informed US of its plan. No reaction from them. Trump never cared. Nobody can take a decision in 15 days. This was in works for the last 5-6 months. Only pigeon sized brained people will think its an reaction to some statements made 15 days back.
> 
> As always he slept through the briefing and he had no idea on what Art370 is and thought India is asking for mediating on Kashmir. And then came our decision by informing US and P5 nations and GCC nations. US maintained silence. If anything IK sold this issue for 125 million dollars and probably another 3-4B dollars for Afghan solving issue.
> 
> Pakistanis were trolling Indians not so long back. The Troller became the Trolled.






says the kid getting trolled by modi without even knowing whats going on.
Wait and watch kid.
You kids were also dancing up and down on 26th Feb, and then "cloud cover", "raphaaaayel", and "hero abhinandan"

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## PakShaheen79

124 Pages on a wish ...

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## Khan Sahab

Apart from Zulus coming, everything else sounds a bit far fetched for now. And given the developing situation in the region it seems even more unlikely than before.


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## mingle

Khan Sahab said:


> Apart from Zulus coming, everything else sounds a bit far fetched for now. And given the developing situation in the region it seems even more unlikely than before.


Zulus were on hold but ready things take time it's not ur computer

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## Dazzler

mingle said:


> Pakistan defence network



Also, the same news was shared by Facebook page of Pakistan development News, their piece is usually on the money.

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## TOPGUN

Dazzler said:


> Also, the same news was shared by Facebook page of Pakistan development News, their piece is usually on the money.



Dazzler bro, any news on new and used vipers ?

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## Humble Analyst

Block 70 may come or not but India has upped the game this Blok 70s can stay where they are and Pakistan should work on alternatives. These F16s have caused a lot of trouble to Pakistan since 80s, time to take a bold step now.

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## Armchair

What if we see this as a golden opportunity to ask for EDA to build up the army and air force rapidly? 

From Trump's point of view, India called him a liar and is trying to derail the Afghan peace process. Punishment is what he would want, and what better way than to give Pak _more_ arms? SPGs, APCs, MRAPS, small arms, NVGs, whatever we can use against India...



Humble Analyst said:


> Block 70 may come or not but India has upped the game this Blok 70s can stay where they are and Pakistan should work on alternatives. These F16s have caused a lot of trouble to Pakistan since 80s, time to make a bold step now.



Get some J-10s ASAP for training pilots, so that in case of war numbers can quickly be increased.



Khafee said:


> Sir, I beg to differ. Aim-120D and Meteor are not generations apart. The diff can be negated through proper planning and training.
> 
> 2ndly, the UAE opted for the higher thrust GE-132 engines for this very reason. GE engines also have the added advantage of performing well in sandy / dusty conditions, in comparison to PW.
> 
> But it seems, as always "commonality" seems to be the objective.
> 
> https://www.geaviation.com/sites/default/files/datasheet-F110-GE-132.pdf



Won't they still outrange us with the Meteor? Anyways, they aren't going to get the Meteor operationalized in 3 months, so its not an immediate problem. F-16s are a brick at altitude compared to the Eurocanards. 


> During more or less a decade of service with the Italian Air Force, the F-16 has been extensively used to train Typhoon pilots in WVR engagements. According to the Italian pilots, the F-16 matches the F-2000 under 10,000 feet. But above FL100 the Typhoon becomes quite difficult to beat since its superior aerodynamics give the Eurofighter can out maneuver the Viper at every engagement.


https://theaviationist.com/2012/12/10/viper-dogfight/

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## airomerix

Armchair said:


> How do we deal with the range and lethality of the Meteor? F-16, latest blocks are heavier and heavier, with those tiny wings, they have increasingly less agility at high altitude and high speeds. If we are talking about combat above 40,000 feet, the Rafales will trump us even if we have new Vipers.



Newer blocks of F-16s are infact more efficient since a combination of composites has been used which reduce the overall weight without compromising durability and performance metrics. 

We saw what our 35 year old vipers armed with 4 x AMRAAMs did to IAF's heavy weights. It comes down to art of air warfare. 

Rafale is very good on paper. Might be practically too. Our Block 52's/Block 15s will not be a walk in the park for Rafales. We are talking about pieces of metal travelling at hundreds of miles per hour. It takes a technological leap to defeat the enemy effortlessly. Sadly for indians, Rafales are not a leap ahead of F-16s. Even the Block 15 MLUs stand a fair chance. The EW suite we use is AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System or AIDEWS. It is a highly capable self protection system which is specially designed to be used in critical missions. 




> xxxxxx
> 
> This is probably not the time to be indecisive. We should be getting J-10s on an emergency basis. Along with any military equipment we can pick up on the fast.


J-10s do not bring anything new to the table for PAF. JF-17 block 3's will suffice. 




Falgrine said:


> Heard about Aim120 Deltas being part of the potential deal. The 9Xs though still seem to be a far cry. Also more squadrons of Vipers up north so that 9 and 11 guys don’t end up there whenever Modi gets a bout of diarrhea.



Not sure about Delta's. 

But we are definitely receiving new AIM-120C-7 AMRAAMs since C-5s are out of production. C-7 out classes anything IAF has right now. If IAF goes against PAF before September, F-16s will eat them alive.

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## Armchair

airomerix said:


> J-10s do not bring anything new to the table for PAF. JF-17 block 3's will suffice.



Thank you for an excellent and eye-opening post. It matches what @Khafee has been saying. 

The reason I feel that we need to get J-10s, it would allow China to quickly increase our squadrons in case of an imminent war. That is, even if we have one training squadron, having the capability to utilize the machines would allow us to quickly increase numbers from Chinese stock.

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## MastanKhan

airomerix said:


> J-10s do not bring anything new to the table for PAF. JF-17 block 3's will suffice.



Hi,

You kids talk about weapons and are totally clueless about major weapons---.
You know what the J10 brings to the table---

It is called NUMBERS---spelled N U M B E R S---on a fastrak---.

You know what HIGHER numbers mean for a military at time of conflict---or you kids have no concept of it.

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## Salza

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You kids talk about weapons and are totally clueless about major weapons---.
> You know what the J10 brings to the table---
> 
> It is called NUMBERS---spelled N U M B E R S---on a fastrak---.
> 
> You know what HIGHER numbers mean for a military at time of conflict---or you kids have no concept of it.



May be in a limited Feb 27 like clash, you don't need numbers. Quality matters most.

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## Sinnerman108

airomerix said:


> I will only comment on what I'm certain about.
> 
> Pakistan has itself expressed interest in acquiring new F-16s in the recent visit. Not sure about upgradation of current fleet.
> 
> However it comes with a bill attached of $8 Billion which is a far cry atleast for now. I think the total number was 26 or 36 jets. I cant recall. But we have definitely performed an assessment and we find new F-16s as a suitable candidate for our future fighter requirements to counter IAF's rafales.
> 
> And trust me when I say this. F-16 Block 70 is not significantly inferior to rafale. F-16V is a very very mature platform. Zero bugs in its operating system and seamless weapons integration ensure its lethality and survivability against IAF's mixed breed of fighters.



And there is catch, 

Platform commonality is advantageous for Pakistan, it lowers the logistic and maintenance headaches. 
It is a disadvantage, because the enemy knows the precise threat, and it can train again and again on that *one *threat.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Armchair said:


> What if we see this as a golden opportunity to ask for EDA to build up the army and air force rapidly?
> 
> From Trump's point of view, India called him a liar and is trying to derail the Afghan peace process. Punishment is what he would want, and what better way than to give Pak _more_ arms? SPGs, APCs, MRAPS, small arms, NVGs, whatever we can use against India...
> 
> 
> 
> Get some J-10s ASAP for training pilots, so that in case of war numbers can quickly be increased.
> 
> 
> 
> Won't they still outrange us with the Meteor? Anyways, they aren't going to get the Meteor operationalized in 3 months, so its not an immediate problem. F-16s are a brick at altitude compared to the Eurocanards.
> 
> https://theaviationist.com/2012/12/10/viper-dogfight/


Thanks to Modi madness, who in the world would arm India to such an extent that a nuclear exchange becomes inevitable?!??!! The MIT study, which has shown a Pak-India nuclear exchange would end the world order as we know it, is still valid if not more!!! Folks at the top aren’t as secured as those at the bottom!!! They lose sleep over a single day’s loss in the stock market.....

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## airomerix

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You kids talk about weapons and are totally clueless about major weapons---.
> You know what the J10 brings to the table---
> 
> It is called NUMBERS---spelled N U M B E R S---on a fastrak---.
> 
> You know what HIGHER numbers mean for a military at time of conflict---or you kids have no concept of it.



Are you usually this condescending? You are an old member hence I'll ignore this. 

Watch your responses.


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## denel

Rehan khan 1 said:


> i think all this is coordinated darama of india and america to fool us for the moment for kashmir thing. it also include afgan situation.


Too much of a co-incidence frankly; it was a well played move to sway the attention away.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I am astounded at the lack of knowledge of pakistani kids and adults as well---.

They show no concept of understanding what higher number count means---they act brainless.

We are as close to war with india as we can get---and we are a 100 frontline aircraft short at this time---.

And why we are short---because the capable aircraft that are available are on the same level as the one we have---meaning we have 100 JF17's a 4th gen aircraft and if we get another 50 J10 aircraft---making it 150---the extra 50 aircraft brings no change to the force---. Wow---what a brilliant analysis---.

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## LKJ86

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am astounded at the lack of knowledge of pakistani kids and adults as well---.
> 
> They show no concept of understanding what higher number count means---they act brainless.
> 
> We are as close to war with india as we can get---and we are a 100 frontline aircraft short at this time---.
> 
> And why we are short---because the capable aircraft that are available are on the same level as the one we have---meaning we have 100 JF17's a 4th gen aircraft and if we get another 50 J10 aircraft---making it 150---the extra 50 aircraft brings no change to the force---. Wow---what a brilliant analysis---.


In the war, fighter aircrafts are consumables, not durable goods.

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## Fieldmarshal

Like I said earlier nothing is coming !!!!
Pakistan has informed the u.s that cooperation in Afg is not possible as with the happenings in IOK are/will have a negative fallout on peace in the whole region.
The only option left is j10c.

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## Flight of falcon

Fieldmarshal said:


> Like I said earlier nothing is coming !!!!
> Pakistan has informed the u.s that cooperation in Afg is not possible as with the happenings in IOK are/will have a negative fallout on peace in the whole region.
> The only option left is j10c.




Nonsense..... we have a world to deal with and survive other than India. This Kashmir issue will grind on and nothing will make us happy and safe than the removal of Indians from Afghanistan which we are so close to achieving. 

People are stupid to think that we will let Afghanistan deal fall for what India is doing in Kashmir. Funny this is exactly what Indians want us to do and hence the timing of all this chaos.

We need to stand ground and continue achieving our goal of placing our people in kabul through the peace deal. 

Once the peace deal is signed only then we can hope to win good will from the rest of the world and get back into the good books of the west. 
Only then anyone will pay attention to our diplomacy and complaints.

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## Armchair

@airomerix what do you think? Don't you feel that PAF should have options if the F-16s don't show? or show and then get spare parts shut down?

In the finance world, we call it risk diversification. It helps to not put all your eggs in one basket. War is imminent, don't you think we should be doing everything possible right now to increase the combat aircraft available to us?

If I were the PAF chief, I would be going to every nook and cranny in the world to increase fighter aircraft numbers. But the PAF seems to be dazed by the glow of F-16s and standing still. I would be trying to get J-10s on an emergency basis. Buying of Mirages from Switzerland. Buying LRSAMs even if I had to get them from North Korea. Pushing the US to release EDA F-16s...

@airomerix

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## Khafee

airomerix said:


> I will only comment on what I'm certain about.
> 
> Pakistan has itself expressed interest in acquiring new F-16s in the recent visit. Not sure about upgradation of current fleet.
> 
> However it comes with a bill attached of *$8 Billion *which is a far cry atleast for now. I think the total number was *26* or 36 jets. I cant recall. But we have definitely performed an assessment and we find new F-16s as a suitable candidate for our future fighter requirements to counter IAF's rafales.
> 
> .


I am very intrigued, how did you arrive at the figure of US$8bn for "_26 or 36 jets_."_(as per your you)_

Would you be kind enough to elaborate?

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## MastanKhan

LKJ86 said:


> In the war, fighter aircrafts are consumables, not durable goods.



Hi,

Thank you very much for posting that---. Maybe these words may open the minds of young and many old pakistanis---.

The allies won the second world war---because they had higher replaceable numbers of machines available---. 

The american battle tanks brought nothing new to the table other than higher numbers---.

The american aircraft brought nothing new to the table except for more aircraft---as many as the germans shot down---more came in---but the germans could not keep up with the supply---.



Fieldmarshal said:


> Like I said earlier nothing is coming !!!!
> Pakistan has informed the u.s that cooperation in Afg is not possible as with the happenings in IOK are/will have a negative fallout on peace in the whole region.
> The only option left is j10c.



Hi,

I believe that pakistan should focus on the J10CE and go for it on a fastrak---.

If Paf gets the J10CE's---then

The US would desperately want to sell us the F16's---.

The J10 would mean that Pak has gone over completely to china---.

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## Avicenna

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you very much for posting that---. Maybe these words may open the minds of young and many old pakistanis---.
> 
> The allies won the second world war---because they had higher replaceable numbers of machines available---.
> 
> The american battle tanks brought nothing new to the table other than higher numbers---.
> 
> The american aircraft brought nothing new to the table except for more aircraft---as many as the germans shot down---more came in---but the germans could not keep up with the supply---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I believe that pakistan should focus on the J10CE and go for it on a fastrak---.
> 
> If Paf gets the J10CE's---then
> 
> The US would desperately want to sell us the F16's---.
> 
> The J10 would mean that Pak has gone over completely to china---.



It never made sense to me why Pakistan didn't acquire J-10.

If nothing else, its additional new build airframes.

Unless access to the AL-31FN was the problem.

But J-10C seems to finally have the WS-10 so perhaps that has been overcome.

Get F-16s sure. Develop the JF-17 sure. Work on Azm sure. But why not get J-10C if on favorable terms for the near term.

China I'm sure would love to get an export on this bird.

If past is prologue, strategic vision seems to be lacking with the PAF.

Maybe this time, think long and hard about this one.

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## Khafee

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe that pakistan should focus on the J10CE and go for it on a fastrak---.
> 
> If Paf gets the J10CE's---then
> 
> The US would desperately want to sell us the F16's---.
> 
> The J10 would mean that Pak has gone over completely to china---.



J10 aside I want to see twin heavies in PAF colors.

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> J10 aside I want to see twin heavies in PAF colors.



Hi,

JH7A's available---almost free of cost---.

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## Khafee

Armchair said:


> Get some J-10s ASAP for training pilots, so that in case of war numbers can quickly be increased.


PAF is familiar with every platform in the PLAF. Some of PLAF's doctrine has been made and fine tuned by PAF.



Armchair said:


> Won't they still outrange us with the Meteor?



The range diff between the Aim-120D and the Meteor is marginal, not exponential.


Armchair said:


> Anyways, they aren't going to get the Meteor operationalized in 3 months, so its not an immediate problem. F-16s are a brick at altitude compared to the Eurocanards.
> 
> https://theaviationist.com/2012/12/10/viper-dogfight/


One always fight from a position of strength, not weakness. IF your asset is lacking in WVR, you stick to BVR, you dont go running looking for WVR.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> JH7A's available---almost free of cost---.


So if they are available "almost free" why not get them?

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## messiach

@Khafee I have no confirmation from anywhere. Perhaps it is something in offing.



Khafee said:


> PAF is familiar with every platform in the PLAF. Some of PLAF's doctrine has been made and fine tuned by PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> The range diff between the Aim-120D and the Meteor is marginal, not exponential.
> 
> One always fight from a position of strength, not weakness. IF your asset is lacking in WVR, you stick to BVR, you dont go running looking for WVR.
> 
> 
> So if they are available "almost free" why not get them?

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## Khafee

messiach said:


> @Khafee I have no confirmation from anywhere. Perhaps it is something in offing.


Did you try west of the Atlantic?

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## PakSword

airomerix said:


> Are you usually this condescending? You are an old member hence I'll ignore this.
> 
> Watch your responses.


Now he is saying we are short of 100 frontline fighters, but on 26th of February, he was saying we should have destroyed 20 Indian fighters when they entered for 2 minutes and 43 seconds.. 

Very few people take him seriously so chill please..

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> So if they are available "almost free" why not get them?



Hi,

To get the JH7's---the Paf will have to reach out---or the Prime minister has to make that decision---what to get---.

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## New World

PakSword said:


> Now he is saying we are short of 100 frontline fighters, but on 26th of February, he was saying we should have destroyed 20 Indian fighters when they entered for 2 minutes and 43 seconds..
> 
> Very few people take him seriously so chill please..



His words have values.
his way of thinking is different from you doesn't means that he is wrong or what you think is right.

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## MastanKhan

Khafee said:


> One always fight from a position of strength, not weakness. IF your asset is lacking in WVR, you stick to BVR, you dont go running looking for WVR.?



Hi,

Isn't that the simplest rule of combat---to fight from a position of your strength.

When you can hit the enemy from 40-50 miles away---then what is the need to get into 10 miles away---.

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> Did you try west of the Atlantic?



I think she meant J-10CEs

Even if we get the F-16s, the J-10s allow us the only fighter aircraft that has commonality with the PLAAF. In the event we both gang up and teach Hindudesh a lesson or two, a common platform is of strategic significance.

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## Khafee

Armchair said:


> I think she meant J-10CEs
> 
> Even if we get the F-16s, the J-10s allow us the only fighter aircraft that has commonality with the PLAAF. In the event we both gang up and teach Hindudesh a lesson or two, a common platform is of strategic significance.


I'm inclined to believe it was the Blk72's ma'am was referring to. J10 acquisition has been more widely discussed in PAF. 

With any Chinese Platform, the advantage of - "inducting at the drop of a hat, leasing, buying on long term installments etc" in other words a lot more options do exist.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> To get the JH7's---the Paf will have to reach out---or the Prime minister has to make that decision---what to get---.


Friend, You and I are the only sole supporters of JH7s on the entire forum!. One day our words will hopefully be realised.

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> I'm inclined to believe it was the Blk72's ma'am was referring to. J10 acquisition has been more widely discussed in PAF.
> 
> With any Chinese Platform, the advantage of - "inducting at the drop of a hat, leasing, buying on long term installments etc" in other words a lot more options do exist.



my point is that to induct at the drop of a hat, one needs pilots trained on the platform... thus a training squadron is the need of the hour...



denel said:


> Friend, You and I are the only sole supporters of JH7s on the entire forum!. One day our words will hopefully be realised.



I'm with you guys on the JH-7As, if we could ever get them that is. Not the kind of aircraft PAF likes, they like cool fighter planes.

I'm in for anything PAF can get, I am puzzled why they aren't. Heck, go for J-8s if you have to! We are doing a Neville Chamberlain right now, sitting on our hands.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> my point is that to induct at the drop of a hat, one needs pilots trained on the platform... thus a training squadron is the need of the hour...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you guys on the JH-7As, if we could ever get them that is. Not the kind of aircraft PAF likes, they like cool fighter planes.
> 
> I'm in for anything PAF can get, I am puzzled why they aren't. Heck, go for J-8s if you have to! We are doing a Neville Chamberlain right now, sitting on our hands.


JH7A are the platform of choice for SOWs as well as deep strike capabilities; right now you have 1 M3 carrying 1 or 2 SOWs; with these you are more to carry.

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## Armchair

denel said:


> JH7A are the platform of choice for SOWs as well as deep strike capabilities; right now you have 1 M3 carrying 1 or 2 SOWs; with these you are more to carry.



They would allow us to target the Indian Western coastline, creating a new front and threat for India to divert their resources to protect.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Isn't that the simplest rule of combat---to fight from a position of your strength.
> 
> When you can hit the enemy from 40-50 miles away---then what is the need to get into 10 miles away---.


Spoken like 'die goote krokodile' - aka PW Botha with a finger in the air shouting .

When he met us once. he said the same thing, i dont want to f... around with the communist kaffirs, give me hammer to put the bastards away once and for all. This is a direct quote as I remembered. No one laughed as he meant this.

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## HRK

Fieldmarshal said:


> Pakistan has informed the u.s that cooperation in Afg is not possible as with the happenings in IOK are/will have a negative fallout on peace in the whole region.


is it latest development related to Alice Wells current visit to Pakistan....??

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## denel

Armchair said:


> They would allow us to target the Indian Western coastline, creating a new front and threat for India to divert their resources to protect.


no, it also means you can take out their carrier formation far far away as well. This is not possible right now.

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## Fieldmarshal

U.s at the moment is not going any where from afg. They will not do any thing to upset India, the police chief of South asia according to them.
So under these circumstances when we are steering down the barrel, we need to think on our feet while running. 
The best option is to lease at least 2 sqd of j10c and at least a sqd of j16 for naval attack role. We have pilots who have/are flying both the ac while being embedded in Chinese sqd operating both the platformz. dont think even russia would mind us leasing ac.at least not too much.

Time is of the essence here and plz close this thread as now it's nothing more than wishful thinking.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> no, it also means you can take out their carrier formation far far away as well. This is not possible right now.



Hi,

See---that is what most pakistanis don't understand---. The most they have seen is combat on the ground---but they are clueless about naval warfare---.

They also don't understand how vulnerable india is from naval strike missions from pakistan.

They don't understand the flight parameters of this aircraft---and how it could be used in our favor---.

The aircraft that the russians feared the most was none other than the F111---.

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## Flight of falcon

Another baby step... USA has removed all restrictions on Pakistani diplomats to move around within the USA .

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## Khafee

Flight of falcon said:


> Another baby step... USA has removed all restrictions on Pakistani diplomats to move around within the USA .


Not baby step - my friend. Ask the Iranians how their foreign minister is treated.

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## messiach

I have replied to you.


Khafee said:


> Did you try west of the Atlantic?

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## Arulmozhi Varman

War Thunder said:


> says the kid getting trolled by modi without even knowing whats going on.
> Wait and watch kid.
> You kids were also dancing up and down on 26th Feb, and then "cloud cover", "raphaaaayel", and "hero abhinandan"



Yea it would actually suit us if you guys keep harping on 27th Feb. Everyone by now knows who trolled who. 

Good day.


----------



## Arulmozhi Varman

mingle said:


> Only Indians r smart rest of the world is fool. Trump was sleeping when Modi was talking to him grow up little up Indians news papers are talking about knee Jerk reaction by Modi gang and here on PDF an Indian telling Us Trump was sleeping and doesn't care anything. Delusional indians has nothing to celebrate here.
> 
> 
> Only if Bravo wil pay down payment then blk 70 will come



Nope. US is smart and powerful. I might not be surprised if US is playing even more bigger game with India. That's how national interests work. But as for this, US knows its a huge decisions, we informed US in Feb, informed P-5, GCC before a day. It was in the plan for last 4-5 months. A decisions as huge as this cannot be a knee jerk reactions. The study has to be elaborate, meeting with lawyers and constitutional experts so it can withstand Indian Judicial scrutiny. 

I am just saying Trump played Pakistan by saying mediating in Kashmir and you guys were jumping up and down and how the US needs Pakistan bla bla bla. It still needs Pakistan, but the extent of brouhaha is/was unfathomable. Right now US needs India for its long term game plan, it knows the ground situation, it knows who arms and sends people across, it knows who funds them. Even Chinese opposition is related to showing Aksai Chin as part of new Ladakh division in Parliament.


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## Arulmozhi Varman

doorstar said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/posts/11681673/



Not that I do not agree with the base meaning of your points, I must point out US doesnt play small short term gains with large countries like you just pointed out. Its never going to help Iran irrespective ff India and Pakistan go to war. Unless it recognises Israel there is no chance of any deal with Iran under Trump's America. 

It plays the waiting game with India with respect to China, just like it played with China during the cold war wrt Soviet Union. I am pretty sure when India gains economic and military might to challenge China and US, it will start training its guns on India again, this time helping Pakistan again, considering it has cleared itself of terrorism by that phase.

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## Humble Analyst

LKJ86 said:


> In the war, fighter aircrafts are consumables, not durable goods.


Really and what is durable? Stupidity is really durable as nothing can change it into wisdom



Avicenna said:


> It never made sense to me why Pakistan didn't acquire J-10.
> 
> If nothing else, its additional new build airframes.
> 
> Unless access to the AL-31FN was the problem.
> 
> But J-10C seems to finally have the WS-10 so perhaps that has been overcome.
> 
> Get F-16s sure. Develop the JF-17 sure. Work on Azm sure. But why not get J-10C if on favorable terms for the near term.
> 
> China I'm sure would love to get an export on this bird.
> 
> If past is prologue, strategic vision seems to be lacking with the PAF.
> 
> Maybe this time, think long and hard about this one.


PAF was in complacent mode and F16 was the comfort zone. It was plain lack of will to change the status quo.

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## Flight of falcon

Wait are we discussing Iranian issues here?
What is this Varman even talking about?

I see your first post and it pissed me off. What is a Muslim Logic? This is discussion regarding something not related to religion or Iranian crap

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## mingle

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> Nope. US is smart and powerful. I might not be surprised if US is playing even more bigger game with India. That's how national interests work. But as for this, US knows its a huge decisions, we informed US in Feb, informed P-5, GCC before a day. It was in the plan for last 4-5 months. A decisions as huge as this cannot be a knee jerk reactions. The study has to be elaborate, meeting with lawyers and constitutional experts so it can withstand Indian Judicial scrutiny.
> 
> I am just saying Trump played Pakistan by saying mediating in Kashmir and you guys were jumping up and down and how the US needs Pakistan bla bla bla. It still needs Pakistan, but the extent of brouhaha is/was unfathomable. Right now US needs India for its long term game plan, it knows the ground situation, it knows who arms and sends people across, it knows who funds them. Even Chinese opposition is related to showing Aksai Chin as part of new Ladakh division in Parliament.


Well publicly theior stand Is they don't know and we have to accept it today state department said that. The only way out is to revert this move by Modi and company or by Indian courts otherway u can't lock down whole valley for ever plus pressure will keep mount on Modi Govt from inwards and outwards. I don't think war is coming right now but, the Hindu news,, stands correct it was knee Jerk reaction by Modi Govt over Trump statements.But in all this ultimate looser is Indian democracy and Modi Govt which labeled as Nazis.No country can prosper by alienating her own ppl. For a moment P5 say ok then u think problem solved???? If u think yes then good luck and if U think No then what is way farward.

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## airmarshal

Where is the money baby to buy even 1 F-16?

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## Pakhtoon yum

airmarshal said:


> Where is the money baby to buy even 1 F-16?


That's a state secret, bud

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## mingle

Arulmozhi Varman said:


> Nope. US is smart and powerful. I might not be surprised if US is playing even more bigger game with India. That's how national inqaterests work. But as for this, US knows its a huge decisions, we informed US in Feb, informed P-5, GCC before a day. It was in the plan for last 4-5 months. A decisions as huge as this cannot be a knee jerk reactions. The study has to be elaborate, meeting with lawyers and constitutional experts so it can withstand Indian Judicial scrutiny.
> 
> I am just saying Trump played Pakistan by saying mediating in Kashmir and you guys were jumping up and down and how the US needs Pakistan bla bla bla. It still needs Pakistan, but the extent of brouhaha is/was unfathomable. Right now US needs India for its long term game plan, it knows the ground situation, it knows who arms and sends people across, it knows who funds them. Even Chinese opposition is related to showing Aksai Chin as part of new Ladakh division in Parliament.


Well publicly theior stand Is they don't know and we have to accept it today state department said that. The only way out is to revert this move by Modi and company or by Indian courts otherway u can't lock down whole valley for ever plus pressure will keep mount on Modi Govt from inwards and outwards. I don't think war is coming right now but, the Hindu news,, stands correct it was knee Jerk reaction by Modi Govt over Trump statements.But in all this ultimate looser is Indian democracy and Modi Govt which labeled as Nazis.No country can prosper by alienating her own ppl. For a moment P5 say ok then u think problem solved???? If u think yes then good luck and if U think No then what is way farward. If india wants to prosper he needs pak with him as equel partner peace with Pak is more to gain for india than even Pak let's hope sanity prevails and this Brown Nazi machine will cut to size by Indian ppl before it destroy social cultural and democratic fabric of India 



airmarshal said:


> Where is the money baby to buy even 1 F-16?


Muno note wakha Mayra mood banay

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## Winchester

What's the trade-off here? 

If its help in Afghanistan, I am all for it. I would, however, not like any compromises on CPEC. 

Shahid Masood who is normally pro-IK said on his tv show about how the Chinese ambassador was unhappy about the non-seriousness of the govt. vis-a-vis Gawadar and the propaganda campaign launched in the media regarding the fake marriages.


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## Syed1.

airmarshal said:


> Where is the money baby to buy even 1 F-16?


I'm not supposed to tell you that sir

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## mingle

Winchester said:


> What's the trade-off here?
> 
> If its help in Afghanistan, I am all for it. I would, however, not like any compromises on CPEC.
> 
> Shahid Masood who is normally pro-IK said on his tv show about how the Chinese ambassador was unhappy about the non-seriousness of the govt. vis-a-vis Gawadar and the propaganda campaign launched in the media regarding the fake marriages.


CPEC projects are on track but orange train is not and will not should not Dr shahid only knows his sources r dry since he is jail

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## airmarshal

mingle said:


> Well publicly theior stand Is they don't know and we have to accept it today state department said that. The only way out is to revert this move by Modi and company or by Indian courts otherway u can't lock down whole valley for ever plus pressure will keep mount on Modi Govt from inwards and outwards. I don't think war is coming right now but, the Hindu news,, stands correct it was knee Jerk reaction by Modi Govt over Trump statements.But in all this ultimate looser is Indian democracy and Modi Govt which labeled as Nazis.No country can prosper by alienating her own ppl. For a moment P5 say ok then u think problem solved???? If u think yes then good luck and if U think No then what is way farward.



And that is where that trap door is. The way forward. Modi might have talked about mediation with Trump. He had this revocation in mind. He would be thinking if he gets stuck, can he use US to extricate himself.

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## Flight of falcon

airmarshal said:


> Where is the money baby to buy even 1 F-16?




Sometimes people ask very dumb questions . People pretend as if we are bankrupt or worse defaulters . Pakistan got 11 billion USA dollar budget. Part of which is allocated for new weapons system. Any purchase is negotiated and payments spread out over a decade. Stop asking and gloating over as if we are beggars. We paid for the last F16s out of our pockets too.

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## Trailer23

@Khafee - Incase you missed, please respond to...:


Trailer23 said:


> Ever since @Khafee started this Topic, i've been working on a side project & thought i'd unleash it on 14th of August .
> 
> I thought, i'd come down here & get his blessing with the go ahead - as I know some of you enjoy my Video Edits.
> @_Sherdils_ @loanranger @mingle @Path-Finder @war&peace @Hodor
> 
> I've already completed the Editing, and now i'm just working on the titles & final touches to make certain its P-E-R-F-E-C-T.
> 
> So, as its his News, i'll wait for a '' from his end...or...I suppose, i'll just keep it with some other unfinished projects.
> 
> Below is a Print Screen from the actual project...
> 
> View attachment 572833


98% done. Final touches...

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## airmarshal

Flight of falcon said:


> Sometimes people ask very dumb questions . People pretend as if we are bankrupt or worse defaulters . Pakistan got 11 billion USA dollar budget. Part of which is allocated for new weapons system. Any purchase is negotiated and payments spread out over a decade. Stop asking and gloating over as if we are beggars. We paid for the last F16s out of our pockets too.



I dont think, in all honesty, we are getting any new weapons from USA. USA is playing nice as it needs an exit from Afghanistan and Trump needs a political victory. Even today, Alice Wells in Islamabad was not sympathetic about FATF. In fact she was advocating Indian agenda regarding 'rogue groups'.

So while wasting our energy here for almost 150 pages, geopolitics dictate a short transactional exchange between Pakistan and USA. The way USA has behaved with Pakistan, as soon it gets its part of the deal, it will simply walk away. USA owes nothing to us. They think they have paid for our services.

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## mingle

airmarshal said:


> And that is where that trap door is. The way forward. Modi might have talked about mediation with Trump. He had this revocation in mind. He would be thinking if he gets stuck, can he use US to extricate himself.


It's not easy and Pak will not accept current status its always give and take. India is big has to sacrifiy bit if someone explain them cost and profit in long run for india they might take shot for them dividends are greater than Pak



airmarshal said:


> I dont think, in all honesty, we are getting any new weapons from USA. USA is playing nice as it needs an exit from Afghanistan and Trump needs a political victory. Even today, Alice Wells in Islamabad was not sympathetic about FATF. In fact she was advocating Indian agenda regarding 'rogue groups'.
> 
> So while wasting our energy here for almost 150 pages, geopolitics dictate a short transactional exchange between Pakistan and USA. The way USA has behaved with Pakistan, as soon it gets its part of the deal, it will simply walk away. USA owes nothing to us. They think they have paid for our services.


US will not give US CSF so we can spend for Russian armoury it will subject to local purchase in our case is F16


----------



## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> See---that is what most pakistanis don't understand---. The most they have seen is combat on the ground---but they are clueless about naval warfare---.
> 
> They also don't understand how vulnerable india is from naval strike missions from pakistan.
> 
> They don't understand the flight parameters of this aircraft---and how it could be used in our favor---.
> 
> The aircraft that the russians feared the most was none other than the F111---.



I can say it will be a game changer in that role, because of the Falklands war. The Argentinians sank a heck of a lot of ships. I've had the privilege to speak with senior US officers whose submarines testify that far fewer ships than were sunk was reported by the UK (they under reported their losses).



Winchester said:


> What's the trade-off here?
> 
> If its help in Afghanistan, I am all for it. I would, however, not like any compromises on CPEC.
> 
> Shahid Masood who is normally pro-IK said on his tv show about how the Chinese ambassador was unhappy about the non-seriousness of the govt. vis-a-vis Gawadar and the propaganda campaign launched in the media regarding the fake marriages.



These are serious issues and we cannot sell our country cheap to the Chinese. Their loans are double edged swords. A serious cost benefit analysis results in rejecting their loans.



Flight of falcon said:


> Another baby step... USA has removed all restrictions on Pakistani diplomats to move around within the USA .



We don't want any more baby steps. They are playing for time. Nickeling and diming us. So they give the least before they pull the plug after they are through with what they want.

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## ARMalik

Armchair said:


> These are serious issues and _we cannot sell our country cheap to the Chinese_. Their loans are double edged swords. A serious cost benefit analysis results in rejecting their loans.



So going by your logic, the country should be *sold EXPENSIVE *to make it *ALRIGHT *for the Chinese to take over?? 

*No one is selling the country Cheap or Expensive*. The Geo-political decisions are taken *years in advance*, and these decisions have *implications*. And what you are *seeing today *are the implications of the decisions taken years ago by the so called "Deep State" or whatever other name you want to give it. And when they are "Geo-Political" decisions taken, then are *"contingency steps"* taken for different scenarios and fall-outs. 

These decisions are certainly not made after listening to "lectures" or reading posts on "Military Forums". People need to have some faith here, and need to stop shooting arrows in the air hoping that at least of it will stick somewhere.

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## Armchair

ARMalik said:


> So going by your logic, the country should be *sold EXPENSIVE *to make it *ALRIGHT *for the Chinese to take over??
> 
> *No one is selling the country Cheap or Expensive*. The Geo-political decisions are taken *years in advance*, and these decisions have *implications*. And what you are *seeing today *are the implications of the decisions taken years ago by the so called "Deep State" or whatever other name you want to give it. And when they are "Geo-Political" decisions taken, then are *"contingency steps"* taken for different scenarios and fall-outs.
> 
> These decisions are certainly not made after listening to "lectures" or reading posts on "Military Forums". People need to have some faith here, and need to stop shooting arrows in the air hoping that at least of it will stick somewhere.



You're pretending to know more than you do.


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## Maxpane

As we are getting f 16 acoording to @Khafee sir but we also get jh 7a from china

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## mingle

Maxpane said:


> As we are getting f 16 acoording to @Khafee sir but we also get jh 7a from china


Who said jh7?? @Maxy


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## Maxpane

mingle said:


> Who said jh7?? @Maxy


no one said that its my personal opinion sir.

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## ARMalik

Armchair said:


> You're pretending to know more than you do.



Ok thanks a lot .... lets move on.


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## Trailer23

If JH-7's were so damn hot..., why the hell did we get those damn Mirage's from Egypt?

@Imran Khan bhai.


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## LKJ86

Trailer23 said:


> If JH-7's were so damn hot..., why the hell did we get those damn Mirage's from Egypt?
> 
> @Imran Khan bhai.


Because PAF is also using Mirage, and that can low the cost.

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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> If JH-7's were so damn hot..., why the hell did we get those damn Mirage's from Egypt?
> 
> @Imran Khan bhai.


They need them spare sources


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## ARMalik

Maxpane said:


> no one said that its my personal opinion sir.



JH-7 is no doubt important but


Trailer23 said:


> If JH-7's were so damn hot..., why the hell did we get those damn Mirage's from Egypt?
> 
> @Imran Khan bhai.



Well according to some reports, from 2011 and onwards, the PAF Mirages fleet was modified to accommodate aerial refueling probes of South African origin. Remember, South African have similar probes built into the Mirage Cheetah. 
If this is true, and it is highly likely to be true, then there is no need for JH-7 since *Mirages can be refueled and use for deep strikes including to strike Indian Carrier and ships*. With all sorts of Weapons integrated on Mirages, these are lethal machines. 
.

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## airomerix

Khafee said:


> I am very intrigued, how did you arrive at the figure of US$8bn for "_26 or 36 jets_."_(as per your you)_
> 
> Would you be kind enough to elaborate?



Now this is a tricky one. 

PAF acknowledges the volatility of Pak-US relationship. So whenever we sign deals with US/NATO countries, we go with an all out approach. Ordering everything in bulk quantities. Which means a hell lot of money. 

Otherwise had our relationship with US been a little less rocky. We would be ordering one thing or another every year and getting deliveries timely. The time wasted in sanctions is something our leadership has to take into account while procuring defence articles. 

Hence in this price tag of $8B. We have complete aircraft (36 I think), 300 AMRAAMs,Mk-series weapons, sniper pods, AIDEWS, JHMCS sets etc and other support and material services.

How do I know about this figure? It's classified.

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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> They need them spare sources


Dua karey kay F-7 kay spares dhoondnay na nikal jaey - warna aap ke taraf say Kayamat ajaey-ge (on PDF).

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## HRK

airomerix said:


> Now this is a tricky one.
> 
> PAF acknowledges the volatility of Pak-US relationship. So whenever we sign deals with US/NATO countries, we go with an all out approach. Ordering everything in bulk quantities. Which means a hell lot of money.
> 
> Otherwise had our relationship with US been a little less rocky. We would be ordering one thing or another every year and getting deliveries timely. The time wasted in sanctions is something our leadership has to take into account while procuring defence articles.
> 
> Hence in this price tag of $8B. We have complete aircraft (36 I think), 300 AMRAAMs,Mk-series weapons, sniper pods, AIDEWS, JHMCS sets etc and other support and material services.
> 
> How do I know about this figure? It's classified.


now after current developments is it still possible .... ???

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## Khafee

airomerix said:


> Now this is a tricky one.
> 
> PAF acknowledges the volatility of Pak-US relationship. So whenever we sign deals with US/NATO countries, we go with an all out approach. Ordering everything in bulk quantities. Which means a hell lot of money.
> 
> Otherwise had our relationship with US been a little less rocky. We would be ordering one thing or another every year and getting deliveries timely. The time wasted in sanctions is something our leadership has to take into account while procuring defence articles.
> 
> Hence in this price tag of $8B. We have complete aircraft (36 I think), 300 AMRAAMs,Mk-series weapons, sniper pods, AIDEWS, JHMCS sets etc and other support and material services.
> 
> How do I know about this figure? It's classified.



People couldn't digest the new 18~24 units I said, and you have come up with 36, and a US$8bn price tag - Oh boy.

Nonetheless, hypothetically speaking, even if 36units were approved, which has not happened so far, the figure would not exceed $6~$7bn max. $2bn (approx) being the actual cost of the a/c's

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## Farah Sohail

Khafee said:


> People couldn't digest the new 18~24 units I said, and you have come up with 36, and a US$8bn price tag - Oh boy.
> 
> Nonetheless, hypothetically speaking, even if 36units were approved, which has not happened so far, the figure would not exceed $6~$7bn max. $2bn (approx) being the actual cost of the a/c's



Sir, after these recent developments / tensions between India and Pak, will this deal of new F-16s block 72 go through or be stalled? Is this deal a done deal or will be stopped by US on some pretext?

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## aliyusuf

Farah Sohail said:


> Sir, after these recent developments / tensions between India and Pak, will this deal of new F-16s block 72 go through or be stalled? Is this deal a done deal or will be stopped by US on some pretext?


Salam @Khafee Sahib, my query as well ... that ... whether the current situation have any adverse effects on the expected deal of 18-24 new Block-72s and up-gradation of 76-96 of existing blocks?

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## Khafee

Farah Sohail said:


> Sir, after these recent developments / tensions between India and Pak, will this deal of new F-16s block 72 go through or be stalled? Is this deal a done deal or will be stopped by US on some pretext?





aliyusuf said:


> Salam @Khafee Sahib, my query as well ... that ... whether the current situation have any adverse effects on the expected deal of 18-24 new Block-72s and up-gradation of 76-96 of existing blocks?



As of today morning, MA everything is on track. Fascist Def Sec was told not to interfere in matters of Nat Sec, a not so polite shut up call.

IA Tentative delivery, for 24 units, is between 18 ~ 24 mnths.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> As of today morning, MA everything is on track. Fascist Def Sec was told not to interfere in matters of Nat Sec, a not so polite shut up call.
> 
> IA Tentative delivery, for 24 units, is between 18 ~ 24 mnths.


 sir

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## Khafee

airomerix said:


> But we are definitely receiving new AIM-120C-7 AMRAAMs since C-5s are out of production. C-7 out classes anything IAF has right now. If IAF goes against PAF before September, F-16s will eat them alive.



120D's are coming in larger qtys, than 120C7.

IAF will never be able to eat PAF, before Sept or after. The are other things in the equation.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> 120D's are coming in larger qtys, than 120C7.
> 
> IAF will never be able to eat PAF, before Sept or after. The are other things in the equation.


an other @Khafee leaks sir?

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## Armchair

Khafee said:


> J10 aside I want to see twin heavies in PAF colors.


@Khafee is that a new leak?

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## Trango Towers

princefaisal said:


> Pakistan should immediately procure HQ-16B's and HQ-9s from China


It's like going to bazaars for samosas

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## Armchair

messiach said:


> I have replied to you.


I think what @messiach means is we may get Jh-7s, since that was the content of what she quoted.

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## MystryMan

Armchair said:


> I think what @messiach means is we may get Jh-7s, since that was the content of what she quoted.


As PLAAF is inducting J-15/16, we can request for the JH-7 fleet with some upgrades.



Khafee said:


> 120D's are coming in larger qtys, than 120C7.
> 
> IAF will never be able to eat PAF, before Sept or after. The are other things in the equation.


#KhafeeLeaks4

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## SQ8

airomerix said:


> Now this is a tricky one.
> 
> PAF acknowledges the volatility of Pak-US relationship. So whenever we sign deals with US/NATO countries, we go with an all out approach. Ordering everything in bulk quantities. Which means a hell lot of money.
> 
> Otherwise had our relationship with US been a little less rocky. We would be ordering one thing or another every year and getting deliveries timely. The time wasted in sanctions is something our leadership has to take into account while procuring defence articles.
> 
> Hence in this price tag of $8B. We have complete aircraft (36 I think), 300 AMRAAMs,Mk-series weapons, sniper pods, AIDEWS, JHMCS sets etc and other support and material services.
> 
> How do I know about this figure? It's classified.


I still am baffled how when our economy is tanked we are all even considering these purchases??

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> I still am baffled how when our economy is tanked we are all even considering these purchases??


Sadqay jaoon, aapki massomiyat pay.

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## SQ8

Khafee said:


> Sadqay jaoon, aapki massomiyat pay.


Bhai, Shiekh ko mandir mein pooja behtar lagti hai agar jaate howe dollar milein. Iss ke liye woh Pakistani pe apni chapal se chal se rondta howa chala jaye usse koi parwah nahin.

Khaleeji ne tu kar ke bhi dikhaya hai.
Allah hi Allah kiya karo, mauqa mille tu piya karo is their motto. 

No source of finances exist for this purchase in my opinion.

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> Bhai, Shiekh ko mandir mein pooja behtar lagti hai agar jaate howe dollar milein. Iss ke liye woh Pakistani pe apni chapal se chal se rondta howa chala jaye usse koi parwah nahin.
> 
> Khaleeji ne tu kar ke bhi dikhaya hai.
> Allah hi Allah kiya karo, mauqa mille tu piya karo is their motto.
> 
> No source of finances exist for this purchase in my opinion.


History will answer this question.

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## SQ8

Khafee said:


> History will answer this question.


Looking at last fifteen - it has; there were originally going to be 36 block-52’s, the earthquake brought it down to 18. Nobody.. NOBODY came to finance even the 8 we wanted.

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> Looking at last fifteen - it has; there were originally going to be 36 block-52’s, the earthquake brought it down to 18. Nobody.. NOBODY came to finance even the 8 we wanted.


For ANYONE to help you, it has to be a two way street.

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## TsAr

Khafee said:


> 120D's are coming in larger qtys, than 120C7.
> 
> IAF will never be able to eat PAF, before Sept or after. The are other things in the equation.


Maa sadkay gaye

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## SQ8

Khafee said:


> For ANYONE to help you, it has to be a two way street.


Considering that we purposely kept ourselves out of the pet conflict project of the GCC. I see nothing else on offer that would compel them to invest the sum required.

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## Zarmeena Rashad

Oscar said:


> I still am baffled how when our economy is tanked we are all even considering these purchases??


I think he has explained this a thousand times already.."We are not paying for them".

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## VCheng

Zarmeena Rashad said:


> I think he has explained this a thousand times already.."We are not paying for them".



Payments need not be monetary, always. Nothing is for free in international geopolitics.

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> Considering that we purposely kept ourselves out of the pet conflict project of the GCC. I see nothing else on offer that would compel them to invest the sum required.



What you call "pet project" is a stepping stone to Makkah an Medina. 

In any case, Makkah has been attack via BM's multiple times, and Yemen is in control, so you did miss that boat. 

Nonetheless, there are more things at play here.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> @Khafee I have no confirmation from anywhere. Perhaps it is something in offing.


I would be extremely surprised since per official US policy on exports to tier 2 countries the Aim-120D is not yet available for release until the D-1 comes out.

However, since Canada, Australia and the UK has been approved; it’s likely that it may be approved for the UAE and Qatar.



Khafee said:


> What you call "pet project" is a stepping stone to Makkah an Medina.
> 
> In any case, Makkah has been attack via BM's multiple times, and Yemen is in control, so you did miss that boat.
> 
> Nonetheless, there are more things at play here.


The motivation to the yemen conflict is not the issue, our lack of participation is and the associated angst with it.
Hence, no financing.



Zarmeena Rashad said:


> I think he has explained this a thousand times already.."We are not paying for them".


And Ive explained it ten thousand times since 2011; we need to stop having pipe dreams about anyone else paying for it.

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## Armchair

Maybe the tradeoff is to have these F-16s in reserve to protect Saudi Arabia in case of conflict with Iran. Or the same with respect to UAE.

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## SQ8

Armchair said:


> Maybe the tradeoff is to have these F-16s in reserve to protect Saudi Arabia in case of conflict with Iran. Or the same with respect to UAE.


Both of those countries now have equal or better assets available to them with the requisite well trained pilots. UAE pilots with their Block-60s are pound for pound better than their PAF F-16 counterparts.

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## Armchair

Oscar said:


> Both of those countries now have equal or better assets available to them with the requisite well trained pilots. UAE pilots with their Block-60s are pound for pound better than their PAF F-16 counterparts.



That may be true, but they still need _more. _Quantity has a quality all its own, and PAF has something they don't have, that will make their decision makers sit and think - actual combat experience against a competent enemy.


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## Humble Analyst

Armchair said:


> Maybe the tradeoff is to have these F-16s in reserve to protect Saudi Arabia in case of conflict with Iran. Or the same with respect to UAE.


Now it makes sense that we will sign something like that plus Army or men and someone will pay for it.
This makes sense but let us shut up and let the deal go through.



Oscar said:


> Both of those countries now have equal or better assets available to them with the requisite well trained pilots. UAE pilots with their Block-60s are pound for pound better than their PAF F-16 counterparts.


You maybe providing military or something else for these countries

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## Flight of falcon

Oscar said:


> Both of those countries now have equal or better assets available to them with the requisite well trained pilots. UAE pilots with their Block-60s are pound for pound better than their PAF F-16 counterparts.



UAE pilots are no where even close to Pakistani pilots. Yes their planes do the flying for them but the generation trained by the Pakistanis didn’t even bother waking up early enough to do early dawn flying. Someone I know mentioned that they would often refuse to fly if it was too hot outside. This was 10 years back so I don’t know if somehow Americans gave them growth hormones to become better than us.


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## POPEYE-Sailor

GUYS ANY VALID SOURCE about F-16 blk 70 deal ??

Or its just a some one dreaming and open thread Pk is getting F-16 blk 70 ..!! and here all people are cheersing we got it blah blah..!!


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## airomerix

HRK said:


> now after current developments is it still possible .... ???



Currently developments are out of every ones control. No one can predict what is going to happen. Except the guys sitting in GHQ.



Khafee said:


> People couldn't digest the new 18~24 units I said, and you have come up with 36, and a US$8bn price tag - Oh boy.
> 
> Nonetheless, hypothetically speaking, even if 36units were approved, which has not happened so far, the figure would not exceed $6~$7bn max. $2bn (approx) being the actual cost of the a/c's



Pakistan's deal for 36 new F-16s was estimated at $5.1B in 2005. The figure of $8B has been quoted to the government in the case if we get no concessions, offset contracts or FMS support fund. I find it believable.



Khafee said:


> 120D's are coming in larger qtys, than 120C7.
> 
> IAF will never be able to eat PAF, before Sept or after. The are other things in the equation.



I highly doubt they will release the Delta version. If you are certain then maybe my source didn't want me to get too excited.



Oscar said:


> I still am baffled how when our economy is tanked we are all even considering these purchases??



These purchases go a long way. Just look at Block 15s. Still serving with grace after 35 years.

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## Khafee

Flight of falcon said:


> UAE pilots are no where even close to Pakistani pilots. Yes their planes do the flying for them but the generation trained by the Pakistanis didn’t even bother waking up early enough to do early dawn flying. Someone I know mentioned that they would often refuse to fly if it was too hot outside. This was 10 years back so I don’t know if somehow Americans gave them growth hormones to become better than us.


Waking up and smelling the coffee, would be nice.

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## Adam_Khan

131 pages on hear'say evidence, about time the admins close this thread.


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## Maxpane

Oscar said:


> I still am baffled how when our economy is tanked we are all even considering these purchases??


salam sir. sir why you pessimistic about this deal?

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## Adam_Khan

Maxpane said:


> salam sir. sir why you pessimistic about this deal?



He is being realistic that's why.


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## SQ8

Maxpane said:


> salam sir. sir why you pessimistic about this deal?


Our current economic conditions, reliability as a loan recipient and our diplomatic relationships and competence at managing those relationships.

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## Maxpane

Adam_Khan said:


> He is being realistic that's why.


IA it will be true . the news is given by professional not one of us civilian sir

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## SQ8

airomerix said:


> Currently developments are out of every ones control. No one can predict what is going to happen. Except the guys sitting in GHQ.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's deal for 36 new F-16s was estimated at $5.1B in 2005. The figure of $8B has been quoted to the government in the case if we get no concessions, offset contracts or FMS support fund. I find it believable.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt they will release the Delta version. If you are certain then maybe my source didn't want me to get too excited.
> 
> 
> 
> These purchases go a long way. Just look at Block 15s. Still serving with grace after 35 years.


Going the long way is irrelevant when you cant make the purchase. A Lexus is extremely reliable and can last you 30 years; but if cannot afford a Corolla talking about a Lexus is pointless.

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## Maxpane

Oscar said:


> Our current economic conditions, reliability as a loan recipient and our diplomatic relationships and competence at managing those relationships.


sir which one was the biggest blunder in your view in managing relation

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## Khafee

airomerix said:


> Pakistan's deal for 36 new F-16s was estimated at $5.1B in 2005. The figure of $8B has been quoted to the government in the case if we get no concessions, offset contracts or FMS support fund. I find it believable.


I think, that figure of $5.1b included more than just the birds.

The recent Slovakian order was for 14, for approx US$800m



airomerix said:


> I highly doubt they will release the Delta version. If you are certain then maybe my source didn't want me to get too excited.


IF your source knows of the C7's then he knows about the D's as well.

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## SQ8

Maxpane said:


> sir which one was the biggest blunder in your view in managing relation


All of them, but both over reliance on common religion and not understanding the interest of multiple countries as stakeholders in one decision has been the greatest.

Indian foreign Service folks are most of the time extremely bright individuals; until recently our standard consulate or embassy staff were nepotism appointed dumbos.

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> All of them, but both over reliance on common religion and not understanding the interest of multiple countries as stakeholders in one decision has been the greatest.
> 
> Indian foreign Service folks are most of the time extremely bright individuals; until recently our standard consulate or embassy staff were nepotism appointed dumbos.


Sir, not just the staff, the Ambassadors and deputy ambassadors i.e Consulate Generals - absolute disgrace.

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## CHI RULES

Oscar said:


> All of them, but both over reliance on common religion and not understanding the interest of multiple countries as stakeholders in one decision has been the greatest.
> 
> Indian foreign Service folks are most of the time extremely bright individuals; until recently our standard consulate or embassy staff were nepotism appointed dumbos.


Sir our foreign appointed staff is also competent at least one high ranking official is known to me having very humble beginnings, the problem is just like our cricket team that we train them to be superior and to master others rather than to be humble or to serve national interests.

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## Maxpane

Oscar said:


> All of them, but both over reliance on common religion and not understanding the interest of multiple countries as stakeholders in one decision has been the greatest.
> 
> Indian foreign Service folks are most of the time extremely bright individuals; until recently our standard consulate or embassy staff were nepotism appointed dumbos.


it means our whole department is in mess.



Khafee said:


> Sir, not just the staff, the Ambassadors and deputy ambassadors i.e Consulate Generals - absolute disgrace.


thats disgraceful

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## Khafee

Maxpane said:


> thats disgraceful


I disagree with a lot of Mushys policys, but during his tenure, there was a visible difference.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> I disagree with a lot of Mushys policys, but during his tenure, there was a visible difference.


sir any ray of hope?

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## Khafee

Maxpane said:


> sir any ray of hope?


No.

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## Flight of falcon

Oscar said:


> Our current economic conditions, reliability as a loan recipient and our diplomatic relationships and competence at managing those relationships.




Contrary to what you may believe economy is heading in a very good direction. Please see IMF report saying that the end of 2019 Pakistan will have history’s lowest account deficit of about 5 billion.... down from record high 22 billion.

As for our diplomatic status after IK excellent visits and standing we really are in the best shape in decades ... 

So stop being a worry wart.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> No.

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## Trailer23

Khafee said:


> I am very intrigued, how did you arrive at the figure of US$8bn for "_26 or 36 jets_."_(as per your you)_
> 
> Would you be kind enough to elaborate?





airomerix said:


> Now this is a tricky one.
> 
> PAF acknowledges the volatility of Pak-US relationship. So whenever we sign deals with US/NATO countries, we go with an all out approach. Ordering everything in bulk quantities. Which means a hell lot of money.
> 
> Otherwise had our relationship with US been a little less rocky. We would be ordering one thing or another every year and getting deliveries timely. The time wasted in sanctions is something our leadership has to take into account while procuring defence articles.
> 
> Hence in this price tag of $8B. We have complete aircraft (36 I think), 300 AMRAAMs,Mk-series weapons, sniper pods, AIDEWS, JHMCS sets etc and other support and material services.
> 
> How do I know about this figure? It's classified.


I'm not contradicting either of you two - (wouldn't dare). But here are price listing for the Sales made for the Block 70/72's...

- _Slovakia_ is paying $1.4 Billion for 14 Aircrafts (Block 70)

- _Bahrain_ is paying $3.8 Billion for 16 Aircrafts (Block 70)

- _Morocco_ is paying $3.7 Billion for 25 Aircrafts (Block 72) + upgrades to the country's existing 23 F‑16s to the more advanced F‑16V Block 52+ configuration, estimated at $985.2 million.

- _Bulgaria_ is paying $1.2 Billion for 8 Aircrafts (Block 70)

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## Army research

Trailer23 said:


> I'm not contradicting either of you two - (wouldn't dare). But here are price listing for the Sales made for the Block 70/72's...
> 
> - _Slovakia_ is paying $1.4 Billion for 14 Aircrafts (Block 70)
> 
> - _Bahrain_ is paying $3.8 Billion for 16 Aircrafts (Block 70)
> 
> - _Morocco_ is paying $3.7 Billion for 25 Aircrafts (Block 72) + upgrades to the country's existing 23 F‑16s to the more advanced F‑16V Block 52+ configuration, estimated at $985.2 million.
> 
> - _Bulgaria_ is paying $1.2 Billion for 8 Aircrafts (Block 70)


Morroco deal seems good, total 5 billion for 25 new ( squadron and a reserve ) plus upgrades to all other, add another billion for 120D and 9X , but where do we get 6bill from ?


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## Khafee

Trailer23 said:


> I'm not contradicting either of you two - (wouldn't dare). But here are price listing for the Sales made for the Block 70/72's...
> 
> - _Slovakia_ is paying $1.4 Billion for 14 Aircrafts (Block 70)
> 
> - _Bahrain_ is paying $3.8 Billion for 16 Aircrafts (Block 70)
> 
> - _Morocco_ is paying $3.7 Billion for 25 Aircrafts (Block 72) + upgrades to the country's existing 23 F‑16s to the more advanced F‑16V Block 52+ configuration, estimated at $985.2 million.
> 
> - _Bulgaria_ is paying $1.2 Billion for 8 Aircrafts (Block 70)




Hon Brother, Please see the following:

*Slovakia *
F16 Blk70 - 14units @ $57.14m
Contract No-*FA8615-19-C-6053 *
Lockheed Martin Corp., doing business as Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, Fort Worth, Texas, has been awarded a *$799,955,939 *firm-fixed-price incentive contract for F-16 aircraft production. This contract provides for the production and support of 14 Slovak Republic F-16 block 70 aircraft. Work will be performed at Greenville, South Carolina, and is expected to be completed by Jan. 31, 2024. This contract award involves 100% foreign military sales to the Slovak Republic. This award is the result of a Slovak Republic conducted competition. Foreign Military Sales funds in the amount of $799,955,939 are being obligated at time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8615-19-C-6053).

Contracts For July 31, 2019
https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1922486/
***********************************************************************************
*Bahrain*
F16 Blk70 - 16units @ $70.28m
Contract No-FA8615-18-C-6058
Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Fort Worth, Texas; and Lockheed Martin, Greenville, South Carolina, have been awarded a *$1,124,545,002 *fixed-price-incentive-firm contract for F-16 production. This contract provides for the production of 16 F-16 V Block 70 aircraft. Work will be performed in Greenville, South Carolina; and Fort Worth, Texas. The work is expected to be complete by Sept. 30, 2023. This contract involves 100 percent foreign military sales (FMS) to the Kingdom of Bahrain. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. FMS funds in the amount of $551,027,050 are being obligated at the time of award. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8615-18-C-6058).

Contracts For June 22, 2018
https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1558220/
***********************************************************************************

For the other two countries, contracts have not been awarded to Lockheed, only DSCA notifications have been issued.

DSCA notifications, or total package prices include transportation, training, spares, ammo, targeting pods etc, hence obscure the actual per unit cost.

Best Regards

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## Trailer23

Army research said:


> Morroco deal seems good, total 5 billion for 25 new ( squadron and a reserve ) plus upgrades to all other, add another billion for 120D and 9X , but where do we get 6bill from ?


Hey, I just do the research & put the numbers on the screen for ya'll.

I don't know anything about the $6 Billion. I've got 10 Dirhams in my account if it'll help...

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## mingle

Maxpane said:


> no one said that its my personal opinion sir.


Maxy not worth now think towards other solutions


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## Maxpane

mingle said:


> Maxy not worth now think towards other solutions


sir g we should have another chinese mature platform to counter USA blackmailing

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## Army research

Trailer23 said:


> Hey, I just do the research & put the numbers on the screen for ya'll.
> 
> I don't know anything about the $6 Billion. I've got 10 Dirhams in my account if it'll help...


Dude I wasn't being negative or anything or whatever, just asking a genuine question but the way people have liked it , it seems like I did something bad ?

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## Trailer23

Army research said:


> Dude I wasn't being negative or anything or whatever, just asking a genuine question but the way people have liked it , it seems like I did something bad ?


Naw bro, I think the '' were 'bout me being broke as a joke with 10 Dirhams in my account.

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## thepakistani

Is three any solid practical & provable proceedings towards, the dreamful block 70?
I'm afraid, it may not to be another day dry dream. We are too enthusiastic about block 70, but are we really getting it?
When?
With what strings attached ?

Its the era when software is biggest incredible part of any modern fighter & the software is the biggest string itself, which most easily manurable, America like non reliable foe like friend. As always proved.

So
We should be very rationale with all option open, we should not bend toward USA openly, it may prove worst decision, as been ever in history.

America is drowning day by day more and more to its natural fate, after murdering, ever maximum mankind.
Soon it would collapse just like USSR, its now written on wall.

So though Block 70 is currently best possible for us, but at what hidden price? 

Pakistan is the country which was built on human muslim blood, non other is like this.
That blood has a huge price near The Creator, that's why who so ever does bad with Pakistan, always becomes symbolic, history is witnessed.


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## Raider 21

Khafee said:


> Hon Brother, Please see the following:
> 
> *Slovakia *
> F16 Blk70 - 14units @ $57.14m
> Contract No-*FA8615-19-C-6053 *
> Lockheed Martin Corp., doing business as Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, Fort Worth, Texas, has been awarded a *$799,955,939 *firm-fixed-price incentive contract for F-16 aircraft production. This contract provides for the production and support of 14 Slovak Republic F-16 block 70 aircraft. Work will be performed at Greenville, South Carolina, and is expected to be completed by Jan. 31, 2024. This contract award involves 100% foreign military sales to the Slovak Republic. This award is the result of a Slovak Republic conducted competition. Foreign Military Sales funds in the amount of $799,955,939 are being obligated at time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8615-19-C-6053).
> 
> Contracts For July 31, 2019
> https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1922486/
> ***********************************************************************************
> *Bahrain*
> F16 Blk70 - 16units @ $70.28m
> Contract No-FA8615-18-C-6058
> Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Fort Worth, Texas; and Lockheed Martin, Greenville, South Carolina, have been awarded a *$1,124,545,002 *fixed-price-incentive-firm contract for F-16 production. This contract provides for the production of 16 F-16 V Block 70 aircraft. Work will be performed in Greenville, South Carolina; and Fort Worth, Texas. The work is expected to be complete by Sept. 30, 2023. This contract involves 100 percent foreign military sales (FMS) to the Kingdom of Bahrain. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. FMS funds in the amount of $551,027,050 are being obligated at the time of award. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8615-18-C-6058).
> 
> Contracts For June 22, 2018
> https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1558220/
> ***********************************************************************************
> 
> For the other two countries, contracts have not been awarded to Lockheed, only DSCA notifications have been issued.
> 
> DSCA notifications, or total package prices include transportation, training, spares, ammo, targeting pods etc, hence obscure the actual per unit cost.
> 
> Best Regards


Bahrain is a done deal for sure. They have sent 2 pilots to (162nd FW) be trained on the type once it comes out of production.


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## Maxpane

i have a feeling that Pakistan wants to use the same plane which are used by GCC .so pilots can utilize these assets to whenever in need of time without any problem weather it is for GCC or Pakistan. One similar platform is very important. Same engine and same asset can be beneficial for both nations



Khafee said:


> For the other two countries, contracts have not been awarded to Lockheed, only DSCA notifications have been issued.


sir it means Pakistan is not alone there is an other country who is playing very vital and having the same plane and infrastructure



Khafee said:


> r the other two countries, contracts have not been awarded to Lockheed, only DSCA notifications have been issued.
> 
> DSCA notifications, or total package prices include transportation, training, spares, ammo, targeting pods etc, hence obscure the actual per unit cost.


so Pakistan is not alone in DSCA category sir?

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## mingle

Maxpane said:


> sir g we should have another chinese mature platform to counter USA blackmailing


Those times gone we live in 2019


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## Maxpane

mingle said:


> Those times gone we live in 2019


not gone . History repeat it self sir.

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## mingle

Maxpane said:


> not gone . History repeat it self sir.


Will never in that regard we should come out from that paranoia


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maxpane said:


> i have a feeling that Pakistan wants to use the same plane which are used by GCC .so pilots can utilize these assets to whenever in need of time without any problem weather it is for GCC or Pakistan. One similar platform is very important. Same engine and same asset can be beneficial for both nations
> 
> 
> sir it means Pakistan is not alone there is an other country who is playing very vital and having the same plane and infrastructure
> 
> 
> so Pakistan is not alone in DSCA category sir?



Sir that includes F-15's, Euro Fighters, Tornado's, Rafales, F-16's,F-18's, M2Ks and Hawk Trainers so in your opinion PAF would be getting all these? May be if PAF plays smart then used F-15's can be the best option for Air Superiority Role.Many are available and can be upgraded with new wings that are made under licence in KSA as well as they can be upgraded to atleast the same level as F-15SA.

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## Black Bird

Khafee said:


> @The Eagle @Dubious Thread ban pls - another idiot high on the yellow elixr, derailing the tread with his delusional crap.


I doubt he is a Muslim.

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## Maxpane

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir that includes F-15's, Euro Fighters, Tornado's, Rafales, F-16's,F-18's, M2Ks and Hawk Trainers so in your opinion PAF would be getting all these? May be if PAF plays smart then used F-15's can be the best option for Air Superiority Role.Many are available and can be upgraded with new wings that are made under licence in KSA as well as they can be upgraded to atleast the same level as F-15SA.


One similar platform is very important. Same engine and same asset can be beneficial for both nations 
this is the answer

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## Black Bird

TheTallGuy said:


> @Khafee "the hidden"
> 
> Under the situation we are in i am afraid we will fight with what we have...Monkey is about to jump the wall


Take it easy bro. We will teach them a lesson Inshallah. Today we are in better position our guys are bettle hardened and well trained.

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## Maxpane

i have already mentioned it

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## Pakistani Fighter

Trailer23 said:


> I'm not contradicting either of you two - (wouldn't dare). But here are price listing for the Sales made for the Block 70/72's...
> 
> - _Slovakia_ is paying $1.4 Billion for 14 Aircrafts (Block 70)
> 
> - _Bahrain_ is paying $3.8 Billion for 16 Aircrafts (Block 70)
> 
> - _Morocco_ is paying $3.7 Billion for 25 Aircrafts (Block 72) + upgrades to the country's existing 23 F‑16s to the more advanced F‑16V Block 52+ configuration, estimated at $985.2 million.
> 
> - _Bulgaria_ is paying $1.2 Billion for 8 Aircrafts (Block 70)


Difference between Block 70 and 72?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maxpane said:


> One similar platform is very important. Same engine and same asset can be beneficial for both nations
> this is the answer


Thats not possible


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## Maxpane

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Thats not possible


why not sir ? F 16 is used by UAE and Pakistan . upgradation to block 70 and use of same GE engine could help the airforces of both countries. in time of war or operation same maintenance crew and pilots using same plane could give a huge boost and with in no time they could double their numbers of pilots and maintenance crew and in war both are the backbone

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> Bhai, Shiekh ko mandir mein pooja behtar lagti hai agar jaate howe dollar milein. Iss ke liye woh Pakistani pe apni chapal se chal se rondta howa chala jaye usse koi parwah nahin.
> 
> Khaleeji ne tu kar ke bhi dikhaya hai.
> Allah hi Allah kiya karo, mauqa mille tu piya karo is their motto.
> 
> No source of finances exist for this purchase in my opinion.


The one x-factor I can think of is (for whatever reason) the White House and Pentagon are OK with facilitating a standard EXIM loan with installments. Basically, the kind of loan Pakistan gets (or used to get) from Europe back when it signed for Agosta 90Bs or asked for M2K/-5s. 

So, it has less to do with the GCC and, maybe, more to do with the White House wanting to maintain influence. Sure, no F-16s makes Pakistan materially weaker, but you'd rather having a say in a stronger entity than less of a say in a weaker one.

But the counter to my point would be that the US can probably achieve as much by just keeping a check on Pakistan's access to spare parts.

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## Maxpane

mingle said:


> Will never in that regard we should come out from that paranoia


lets agree to disagree

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## Trailer23

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Difference between Block 70 and 72?


Block 70 - GE (General Electric) powered Engines
Block 72 - P&W (Pratt and Whitney) powered Engines

We (PAF) have Block 52's, which our powered by Pratt and Whitney.

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## mingle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Difference between Block 70 and 72?


One seat and two seat like 50/52 could be engine


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## Ray_of_Hope

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Difference between Block 70 and 72?


Block 70 uses GE engine while Block 72 used P&W engine.
GE has a slight more thrust compared to P&W.Other than that both blocks are identical


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## Khafee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The one x-factor I can think of is (for whatever reason) the White House and Pentagon are OK with facilitating a standard EXIM loan with installments. Basically, the kind of loan Pakistan gets (or used to get) from Europe back when it signed for Agosta 90Bs or asked for M2K/-5s.
> 
> So, it has less to do with the GCC and, maybe, more to do with the White House wanting to maintain influence. Sure, no F-16s makes Pakistan materially weaker, but you'd rather having a say in a stronger entity than less of a say in a weaker one.
> 
> But the counter to my point would be that the US can probably achieve as much by just keeping a check on Pakistan's access to spare parts.



My friend, you just killed two birds with one stone.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The one x-factor I can think of is (for whatever reason) the White House and Pentagon are OK with facilitating a standard EXIM loan with installments. Basically, the kind of loan Pakistan gets (or used to get) from Europe back when it signed for Agosta 90Bs or asked for M2K/-5s.
> 
> So, it has less to do with the GCC and, maybe, more to do with the White House wanting to maintain influence. Sure, no F-16s makes Pakistan materially weaker, but you'd rather having a say in a stronger entity than less of a say in a weaker one.
> 
> But the counter to my point would be that the US can probably achieve as much by just keeping a check on Pakistan's access to spare parts.


That would require *extremely* favorable terms. Because even at the height of PPP corruption when the economy was considered relatively devastated then and leeched.. Pakistan was struggling to make payments on the interests for most of its defense loans. The situation todya is worse than then.

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## Khafee

Ray_of_Hope said:


> Block 70 uses GE engine while Block 72 used P&W engine.
> GE has a slight more thrust compared to P&W.Other than that both blocks are identical


*Blk 70 = GE engine *
F110-GE-129 = 29,000lb thrust
or
F110-GE-132 = 32,500lb thrust

*Blk 72 = PW engine*
F100-PW-229 = 29,000lb thrust

Todya, more than 70% of F16's use GE engines

@Trailer23 @Maxpane @Syed Hammad Ahmed Kindly note

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## GriffinsRule

Khafee said:


> *Blk 70 = GE engine *
> F110-GE-129 = 29,000lb thrust
> or
> F110-GE-132 = 32,500lb thrust
> 
> *Blk 72 = PW engine*
> F100-PW-229 = 29,000lb thrust
> 
> Todya, more than 70% of F16's use GE engines
> 
> @Trailer23 @Maxpane @Syed Hammad Ahmed Kindly note


Lemme guess...some secret Arab benefactor is going to pay for the engine swap as well and help us setup engine workshops at James for the new GE one and retrain hundreds or ppl with decades of experience working on those PW engines? 
Not to mention that most of our jets are block 15s that cannot switch over to GE. So I suppose you are then suggesting a mix fleet? I think it's better just to drop this GE over PW dreaming as it will not happen

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## MystryMan

Khafee said:


> *Blk 70 = GE engine *
> F110-GE-129 = 29,000lb thrust
> or
> F110-GE-132 = 32,500lb thrust
> 
> *Blk 72 = PW engine*
> F100-PW-229 = 29,000lb thrust
> 
> Todya, more than 70% of F16's use GE engines
> 
> @Trailer23 @Maxpane @Syed Hammad Ahmed Kindly note


Are we still trying to get used vipers from Jordan?


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## fatman17

MystryMan said:


> Are we still trying to get used vipers from Jordan?


Yes we are. Hoping for a US NOC as relationship improves. Pakistan - Jordan defence ties are very strong.

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## MystryMan

fatman17 said:


> Yes we are. Hoping for a US NOC as relationship improves. Pakistan - Jordan defence ties are very strong.


I hope we get some EDA blk42 from US also.

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## Super Falcon

Buying f 16 is not a good idea

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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> Lemme guess...some secret Arab benefactor is going to pay for the engine swap as well and help us setup engine workshops at James for the new GE one and retrain hundreds or ppl with decades of experience working on those PW engines?
> Not to mention that most of our jets are block 15s that cannot switch over to GE. So I suppose you are then suggesting a mix fleet? I think it's better just to drop this GE over PW dreaming as it will not happen



What @Khafee is saying he thinks GE engines are better, have more thrust and perform better in sandy conditions. He hopes we go for them but acknowledges we may not.

Also, a lot of Arab sheikhs own GE shares and if we get the GE engines they would have commonality with Gulf forces so we can more easily be interoperable. 

Maintainance between the two types are not totally dissimilar, maybe you could have made your point in a better way.

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## Thorough Pro

PAF has always gone for P&W engines and they already have the infrastructure to overhaul P&W engines. there is no economic or operational justification for a different engine





Armchair said:


> What @Khafee is saying he thinks GE engines are better, have more thrust and perform better in sandy conditions. He hopes we go for them but acknowledges we may not.
> 
> Also, a lot of Arab sheikhs own GE shares and if we get the GE engines they would have commonality with Gulf forces so we can more easily be interoperable.
> 
> Maintainance between the two types are not totally dissimilar, maybe you could have made your point in a better way.

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## Trango Towers

they are not coming...this is just hot air fangirl talk. no proof whatsoever

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maxpane said:


> why not sir ? F 16 is used by UAE and Pakistan . upgradation to block 70 and use of same GE engine could help the airforces of both countries. in time of war or operation same maintenance crew and pilots using same plane could give a huge boost and with in no time they could double their numbers of pilots and maintenance crew and in war both are the backbone


70+ years of experience on PW engines can not be rolled over to another over night. One has to realise it is not F-16 engines that are PW but also other US made aircraft in PAF inventory.

IF PAF is somehow able to order 150+ F16 block 70 then it might be possible to have a separate setup established for GE engines.

If you would have read my previous reply in which I had suggested PAF could procure only F-15's from the list of aircraft inventories in GCC countries was based on the fact that F-15 uses the same engine as of F-16's operated by PAF. There are many F-15's available today and more would follow in following years. 

Today there are not many F-16's available in the market with PW engines so PAF options are limited.
@GriffinsRule, @Armchair



Trango Towers said:


> they are not coming...this is just hot air fangirl talk. no proof whatsoever


One should not be judgemental in the beginning but optimistic. 

Sometimes when it rains it pours...

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## GriffinsRule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 70+ years of experience on PW engines can not be rolled over to another over night. One has to realise it is not F-16 engines that are PW but also other US made aircraft in PAF inventory.
> 
> IF PAF is somehow able to order 150+ F16 block 70 then it might be possible to have a separate setup established for GE engines.
> 
> If you would have read my previous reply in which I had suggested PAF could procure only F-15's from the list of aircraft inventories in GCC countries was based on the fact that F-15 uses the same engine as of F-16's operated by PAF. There are many F-15's available today and more would follow in following years.
> 
> Today there are not many F-16's available in the market with PW engines so PAF options are limited.
> @GriffinsRule, @Armchair
> 
> 
> One should not be judgemental in the beginning but optimistic.
> 
> Sometimes when it rains it pours...



If PAF buys any used F-16s prior to block 42, they would be all P&W engines. Given that we kept with PW for our 52s makes it an almost certainty that any upcoming F-16s will also be similarly equipped. So why even bother with this line of debate.

I hope that we get some block 72s in our inventory, but I am reluctant to throw my arms up in celebration just yet. Lets see what comes of the Afghan peace process and now Kashmir before that fat lady sings.

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## Armchair

Firstly some mis-information. Black 40/42 was not the start of GE engines.

Secondly, there is a reason the US moved to GE engines and most operators today prefer GE.

Newer blocks can switch between engine types, not sure this is true for the earliest blocks.

American engines use similar tech and maintenence systems which are different from Russian or Chinese ones. It is not the biggest deal for Pak engine maintenance crew to switch from one to another.

GE is superior tech to PW but PW is slightly lighter. @Khafee has already said PAF is likely to prefer the PW engines. He is simply noting his disagreement with that decision (when it happens)

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Armchair said:


> Firstly some mis-information. Black 40/42 was not the start of GE engines.
> 
> Secondly, there is a reason the US moved to GE engines and most operators today prefer GE.
> 
> Newer blocks can switch between engine types, not sure this is true for the earliest blocks.
> 
> American engines use similar tech and maintenence systems which are different from Russian or Chinese ones. It is not the biggest deal for Pak engine maintenance crew to switch from one to another.
> 
> GE is superior tech to PW but PW is slightly lighter. @Khafee has already said PAF is likely to prefer the PW engines. He is simply noting his disagreement with that decision (when it happens)


Sir, 
PW engines are robust engines where as GE engines are not so. The major difference is in performance i.e if max power is required PW takes 2 seconds respond and peak in 7 seconds GE would take 1.5sec to respond and peak at 6 seconds. Hence Pilots consider GE engines as more responsive in comparison.

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## Khafee

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> PW engines are robust engines where as GE engines are not so. The major difference is in performance i.e if max power is required PW takes 2 seconds respond and peak in 7 seconds GE would take 1.5sec to respond and peak at 6 seconds. Hence Pilots consider GE engines as more responsive in comparison.



In terms of throttle response, robustness, and maintenance / maintenance trouble shooting - GE wins.



GriffinsRule said:


> Lemme guess...some secret Arab benefactor is going to pay for the engine swap as well and help us setup engine workshops at James for the new GE one and retrain hundreds or ppl with decades of experience working on those PW engines?
> Not to mention that most of our jets are block 15s that cannot switch over to GE. So I suppose you are then suggesting a mix fleet? I think it's better just to drop this GE over PW dreaming as it will not happen


Keep guessing...

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## ARMalik

It is interesting to read some comments on GE vs PW engines from people who have no engine background. Being American engines do not make them "similar tech" or make them easier to maintain. People need to understand that even within GE engines, one engine model compared to the other may have features which may require extensive training for the Engine Technicians to update their knowledge. One GE model may be *more suitable for certain environments *compared to a very similar GE model. Even simple firmware/software upgrades on engines can create operational issues if not planned properly. By the way, GE is trying to make all its newer engines accessible and controlled via the web.

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## Ray_of_Hope

Khafee said:


> *Blk 70 = GE engine *
> F110-GE-129 = 29,000lb thrust
> or
> F110-GE-132 = 32,500lb thrust
> 
> *Blk 72 = PW engine*
> F100-PW-229 = 29,000lb thrust
> 
> Todya, more than 70% of F16's use GE engines
> 
> @Trailer23 @Maxpane @Syed Hammad Ahmed Kindly note


Yep..But all of our EF Solaas use PW engines and we will not switch over to GE just because of a slightly higher thrust.

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## Khafee

Ray_of_Hope said:


> Yep..But all of our EF Solaas use PW engines and we will not switch over to GE just because of a slightly higher thrust.



12% higher thrust, is not "slightly higher." 

Anyways, GE engines are out of the question, so no point in discussing this moot point.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> 12% higher thrust, is not "slightly higher."
> 
> Anyways, GE engines are out of the question, so no point in discussing this moot point.


lol so problem solved and happy on PW?

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## Khafee

Maxpane said:


> lol so problem solved and happy on PW?


Ecstatic

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## Pakistan Ka Beta

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The one x-factor I can think of is (for whatever reason) the White House and Pentagon are OK with facilitating a standard EXIM loan with installments. Basically, the kind of loan Pakistan gets (or used to get) from Europe back when it signed for Agosta 90Bs or asked for M2K/-5s.
> 
> So, it has less to do with the GCC and, maybe, more to do with the White House wanting to maintain influence. Sure, no F-16s makes Pakistan materially weaker, but you'd rather having a say in a stronger entity than less of a say in a weaker one.
> 
> But the counter to my point would be that the US can probably achieve as much by just keeping a check on Pakistan's access to spare parts.


Sir sorry to disturb u . Any News about 12 AH1Z Viper Helicopters .



Khafee said:


> Waking up and smelling the coffee, would be nice.


Sir any news about 12 AH1Z Viper Helicopters ???

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maxpane said:


> lol so problem solved and happy on PW?


one problem solved ...Pandora's box opened


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## Armchair

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> PW engines are robust engines where as GE engines are not so. The major difference is in performance i.e if max power is required PW takes 2 seconds respond and peak in 7 seconds GE would take 1.5sec to respond and peak at 6 seconds. Hence Pilots consider GE engines as more responsive in comparison.



Sir, additionally the GE engines have higher thrust. I am not sure how robust - according to Khafee GE is better in dusty conditions



ARMalik said:


> It is interesting to read some comments on GE vs PW engines from people who have no engine background. Being American engines do not make them "similar tech" or make them easier to maintain. People need to understand that even within GE engines, one engine model compared to the other may have features which may require extensive training for the Engine Technicians to update their knowledge. One GE model may be *more suitable for certain environments *compared to a very similar GE model. Even simple firmware/software upgrades on engines can create operational issues if not planned properly. By the way, GE is trying to make all its newer engines accessible and controlled via the web.


Russian engines have completely different maintenance schedule from US engines

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## Ace of Spades

Khafee said:


> In terms of throttle response, robustness, and maintenance / maintenance trouble shooting - GE wins.
> 
> 
> Keep guessing...



UAE would do that... not to worry, our baradars are with us economically, politically and ideologically.

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## SQ8

Khafee said:


> In terms of throttle response, robustness, and maintenance / maintenance trouble shooting - GE wins.
> 
> 
> Keep guessing...


Incorrect. Over 40 years of USAF maintenance crews will testify that the PW engine is easier to maintain and tougher(resistant to FoD and bird strikes). 

If you post the same on a dedicated F-16 forum you will get the same echo.

The performance difference comes from the GE engine’s response time and thrust at different altitudes. However in terms of MTOW its the same.

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> Incorrect. Over 40 years of USAF maintenance crews will testify that the PW engine is easier to maintain and tougher(resistant to FoD and bird strikes).
> 
> If you post the same on a dedicated F-16 forum you will get the same echo.
> 
> The performance difference comes from the GE engine’s response time and thrust at different altitudes. However in terms of MTOW its the same.


No Sir, Having seen F16s stationed in the GCC, I can tell you that definitely is not the case.

Lets agree to disagree.

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## Humble Analyst

Khafee said:


> Ecstatic


GE with 3000 pounds extra, ask those who know the difference when that extra thrust could mean kill or not or escape or not, however Pakistan will not get GE unless PW are not being manufactured and Pakistan is still getting those Ef Solah
@Khafee you being sarcastic so the post is not directed at you but those who think PW is better or same as GE

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## Khafee

Humble Analyst said:


> GE with 3000 pounds extra, ask those who know the difference when that extra thrust could mean kill or not or escape or not, however Pakistan will not get GE unless PW are not being manufactured and Pakistan is still getting those Ef Solah


3500 lbs

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## Raider 21

Ray_of_Hope said:


> Yep..But all of our EF Solaas use PW engines and we will not switch over to GE just because of a slightly higher thrust.


A proposal was brought up as how the Hellenic Air Force have both PW and GE powered Vipers. But the resulting cost was far higher in the long run....

They are sticking with PW powered Vipers at PAF although I have heard advantages for both engine types, from my experience I would have picked the GE engine. Very reliable, worked extremely well in hot regimes.

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## SQ8

Khafee said:


> No Sir, Having seen F16s stationed in the GCC, I can tell you that definitely is not the case.
> 
> Lets agree to disagree.


Yes, having a neighbor on the street as a former USAF maintainer.. lets agree to disagree.

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## GriffinsRule

Anyone know as to why, after flying 100+ GE equipped Block 40s, did Egypt opt for Block 52s with P&W for their newest order?
Similarly, Greece has 40 Block 50s, but later opted to buy 90 Block 52s. Guess GE must have some shortcomings that we might not be privy to?

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## untitled

Knuckles said:


> They are sticking with PW powered Vipers at PAF although I have heard advantages for both engine types, from my experience I would have picked the GE engine. Very reliable, worked extremely well in hot regimes.


When Pakistan first acquired the Block15 F16s the GE engine was not even an option back then. Infact Pakistan was lucky Americans gave approval for the F100 engines instead of the J79.

Only on later model F16s and F15s the F110 became on option

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## GriffinsRule

member.exe said:


> When Pakistan first acquired the Block15 F16s the GE engine was not even an option back then. Infact Pakistan was lucky Americans gave approval for the F100 engines instead of the J79.
> 
> Only on later model F16s and F15s the F110 became on option



Indeed. Of all the Block 50/52 ordered by air forces outside of USAF, there are 184 Block 50 (4 countries) vs 540 Block 52s (9 countries). I think thrust of the F-100-PW-229 is probably not a big concern for most operators.

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## Path-Finder

GE doesn't like Pakistan?

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## Raider 21

member.exe said:


> When Pakistan first acquired the Block15 F16s the GE engine was not even an option back then. Infact Pakistan was lucky Americans gave approval for the F100 engines instead of the J79.
> 
> Only on later model F16s and F15s the F110 became on option


Block 30,40,50,60,70. The rest are all PW.

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## Khafee

Thorough Pro said:


> PAF has always gone for P&W engines and they already have the infrastructure to overhaul P&W engines. there is no economic or operational justification for a different engine


Not for the GE-129, but for the GE-132 YES.



Oscar said:


> Incorrect. Over 40 years of USAF maintenance crews will testify that the PW engine is easier to maintain and tougher(resistant to FoD and bird strikes).
> 
> If you post the same on a dedicated F-16 forum you will get the same echo.
> 
> The performance difference comes from the GE engine’s response time and thrust at different altitudes. However in terms of MTOW its the same.


The PW-229 & GE-132 have the same MTOW?



GriffinsRule said:


> Anyone know as to why, after flying 100+ GE equipped Block 40s, did Egypt opt for Block 52s with P&W for their newest order?
> Similarly, Greece has 40 Block 50s, but later opted to buy 90 Block 52s. Guess GE must have some shortcomings that we might not be privy to?


When was the last time Egypt paid for F16's?

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## aliyusuf

Khafee said:


> Not for the GE-129, but for the GE-132 YES.
> 
> 
> The PW-229 & GE-132 have the same MTOW?
> 
> 
> When was the last time Egypt paid for F16's?


As far as I know that the General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan engine is only used in the F-16 Block-60. No other block of F-16 uses this engine.

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## Armchair

Earlier GE engines had a problem with structural cracks. Last version should have all issues ironed out


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## Trango Towers

136 pages on a rumour.

No f16 coming.

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## araz

Knuckles said:


> A proposal was brought up as how the Hellenic Air Force have both PW and GE powered Vipers. But the resulting cost was far higher in the long run....
> 
> They are sticking with PW powered Vipers at PAF although I have heard advantages for both engine types, from my experience I would have picked the GE engine. Very reliable, worked extremely well in hot regimes.


Precisely my point. For PAF with nearly 40 years of sticking with PW and a fleet commonality with 52s, swapping over to a GE engine is not going to happen. So effectively this is a non issue.
A

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## NA71

waste of time ....dear PAF think otherwise ....the conflict is now at our doors....new F16s is ringing bells like "1971 ameriki bera is coming...."

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## MIG21DOWN

Is there any credible rumours or trustworthy posters on this site who can confirm they are in talks for block 70s? Otherwise i dont want to get my hopes up and neither should the rest of u. Idk why u guys are all excited talking about engine types when we dont even know if we will get it. Dont get ur hopes up too much.

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## Imran Khan

MIG21DOWN said:


> Is there any credible rumours or trustworthy posters on this site who can confirm they are in talks for block 70s? Otherwise i dont want to get my hopes up and neither should the rest of u. Idk why u guys are all excited talking about engine types when we dont even know if we will get it. Dont get ur hopes up too much.


jesy hum guzara ker rahy hain ap bhi kareen

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## graphican

Trango Towers said:


> 136 pages on a rumour.
> No f16 coming.



It may well be a rumor but consider a few points which create a logical explanation that why it may be possible. 

*Americans want to keep F-16 production lines open:* if not India, sell them to Pakistan as this won't topple the power-dynamics despite the sale. 

*Force India to request something bigger: * Sell F-16s to Pakistan, make India come for F-18 as a result? Previously, they sold Zulus to Pakistan, Apache to Indians so can they repeat the pattern?
*They need Pakstians' support in Afghanistan*
*To increase their leverage on Pakistan viz a viz China *which they've lost over time. 
So it may well be a rumor but looks like there is some substance behind it and it may be real. Who knows, we are just discussing possibilities.

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## SQ8

Khafee said:


> Not for the GE-129, but for the GE-132 YES.
> 
> 
> The PW-229 & GE-132 have the same MTOW?
> 
> 
> When was the last time Egypt paid for F16's?


F-110 -229 on the V

The 132 comes only for the block-60 and is irrelevant to the Pakistani purchase.

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## Khafee

Oscar said:


> F-110 -229 on the V
> 
> The 132 comes only for the block-60 and is irrelevant to the Pakistani purchase.



For new vipers, any operator has the option of 3 engines.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Nice thread. Gave this old man a chuckle. I dont know what game is being played, but Either Pakistan wants J10B for free, or J20 for free, or some other "F104" from the US for free so see which side blinks and obliges. Hip Hip.

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## ali_raza

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Nice thread. Gave this old man a chuckle. I dont know what game is being played, but Either Pakistan wants J10B for free, or J20 for free, or some other "F104" from the US for free so see which side blinks and obliges. Hip Hip.


u think j20 has any chance

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## ziaulislam

graphican said:


> It may well be a rumor but consider a few points which create a logical explanation that why it may be possible.
> 
> *Americans want to keep F-16 production lines open:* if not India, sell them to Pakistan as this won't topple the power-dynamics despite the sale.
> 
> *Force India to request something bigger: * Sell F-16s to Pakistan, make India come for F-18 as a result? Previously, they sold Zulus to Pakistan, Apache to Indians so can they repeat the pattern?
> *They need Pakstians' support in Afghanistan*
> *To increase their leverage on Pakistan viz a viz China *which they've lost over time.
> So it may well be a rumor but looks like there is some substance behind it and it may be real. Who knows, we are just discussing possibilities.


The problem is that we have given them leverage 
1. Fragile economy requiring support from AB WB IMF
2. They know peace is in our interest more than in USA interest 

With respect to f16 better get the CSF money one way or another be it loan writing off f16s or EDA

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## graphican

ziaulislam said:


> The problem is that we have given them leverage
> 1. Fragile economy requiring support from AB WB IMF
> 2. They know peace is in our interest more than in USA interest
> 
> With respect to f16 better get the CSF money one way or another be it loan writing off f16s or EDA



Yes USA knows peace in Afghanistan is in Pakistan's own interest and we wish for it more than USA does, but the question is post-American withdrawal, will Pakistan help them anymore? For what reason? For which National interest? To ensure anti -Americanism doest hold roots in Afghanistan, they need a continuous support from Pakistan.

Ecnomic leverage they have upon us is real, but its temporary. Within the next 2-3 years, Pakistan wont be tweakable using ecnomic instruments, but military hardware will create a leverage worth 25 years.

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## Trailer23

In approx 30mins., i'll release my new video & link it on this Topic. Be sure to watch catch it.
@Khafee

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## Trailer23

Well, here it is...

Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.

1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
2. Clocking mechanism.

Enjoy... - Happy 14th August






@Khafee
@Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
@aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## war&peace

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar


Nice job!!! I like it


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## Khafee

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar



A few minutes ago, I was looking at a thread of how many kills actually happened on the 27th of Feb, and I was literally sitting at the end of the runway, flipping the elevators, thinking to go full throttle or not. 

This wonderful video has brought back a lot of good memories. 

May Allah shower his infinite blessings on you and your loved ones.

Thank You

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## Flight of falcon

Excellent job

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## Reichsmarschall

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar


excellent video, a veritable gem. Thanks for sharing

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## NA71

@Trailer23 Great Work....as always. Shabash.

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## TheTallGuy

Khafee said:


> A few minutes ago, I was looking at a thread of how many kills actually happened on the 27th of Feb, and I was literally sitting at the end of the runway, flipping the elevators, thinking to go full throttle or not.

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## truthseeker2010

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar



A sincere suggestion, you should work for Paf Media cell or ISPR, thats where you belong!

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## Trailer23

Khafee said:


> May Allah shower his infinite blessings on you and your loved ones.





truthseeker2010 said:


> A sincere suggestion, you should work for Paf Media cell or ISPR, thats where you belong!


I'm truly grateful for the kind words spoken. My efforts are driven by true passion for the PAF.

Plus I get the



.

For those who have never seen any of my earlier work, just goto:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Vasef79/videos

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## TOPGUN

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar



Very nice video bro thanks for sharing

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

truthseeker2010 said:


> A sincere suggestion, you should work for Paf Media cell or ISPR, thats where you belong!


The PAF Media Directorate and/or ISPR will actually need to invest in high-quality footage (like good aerial footage of the fighters) to make full use of @Trailer23's skills.

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## Irfan Baloch

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar


great work there

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## Liquidmetal

superb

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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF Media Directorate and/or ISPR will actually need to invest in high-quality footage (like good aerial footage of the fighters) to make full use of @Trailer23's skills.


Sir, all it takes is a good GoPro cam and a script to the Pilots of what needs to be done...

Sadly, they're just happy with individuals focusing on putting on their gear & showing members of their own family.

The purpose of my Video Edits is not holding a guitar in my hand & singing a ballad - just so that I get laid...some day. My purpose is that our Servicemen watch my vids & say, "F#*k yeah!".

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> Sir, all it takes is a good GoPro cam and a script to the Pilots of what needs to be done...
> 
> Sadly, they're just happy with individuals focusing on putting on their gear & showing members of their own family.
> 
> The purpose of my Video Edits is not holding a guitar in my hand & singing a ballad - just so that I get laid...some day. My purpose is that our Servicemen watch my vids & say, "F#*k yeah!".


They can do a little more though. E.g., record aerial footage from the ramp of a C-130 or CN235, or attach UHD cameras to the exteriors of the fighters. A few hours of actual footage will cover them for a few years, easy.

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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar


WOW amazing! Just imagine your self making a video of PAF Block 70 s maiden flight 
By the way is every single clip of PAF or are there other planes and pilots other than PAF involved in this video?

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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They can do a little more though. E.g., record aerial footage from the ramp of a C-130 or CN235, or attach UHD cameras to the exteriors of the fighters. A few hours of actual footage will cover them for a few years, easy.


Have you seen that new PAF Song which I consider to be...atrocious?!!

The worst thing about Pakistani Music Videos are the cheap 'n' cheezy effects/transitions used. There was like a total of 30secs of new footage of F-16 (Sqn no. 9 - Griffins) & it appeared dull, smoky... Just watching it I said WTF. An effect was used which basically screwed any chances of me ever using that footage.

And i'm certainly not downplaying the song or comparing it to mine. That song had a budget. Mine was driven by time. I had originally completed my video on the 5th of August, but kept making changes or even the slightest detail till earlier yesterday. Even my laptop basically screamed "STOP RENDERING" on the 30th attempt.

I think I mentioned it on another Topic. The weakest Dept. of the PAF is the Media Affairs.

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## Tom_Cruise

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar



Awesome


----------



## ghazi52

Great work.

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## crankthatskunk

@Trailer23 great work, professional, precise and worth watching.

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## Path-Finder

@Trailer23 great work bro, enjoyed watching it.

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## Sabretooth

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August



I can see that a substantial amount of effort went into this and the result is superb. Your finest work to date. Keep it up.


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## Trailer23

Guys, there is a Topic currently active right now covering this Topic.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/swift-retort-heroes-to-be-awarded-on-14th-august.631078/page-5


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## GriffinsRule

Flight of falcon said:


> Here is the list of award recipients for tomorrow:


Reported for sharing confidential information, as clearly marked on the top of the images. Even the numbers for pilots are not edited! How careless and idiotic.

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## Maxpane

GriffinsRule said:


> Reported for sharing confidential information, as clearly marked on the top of the images. Even the numbers for pilots are not edited! How careless and idiotic.


agree sir .


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## Stealth

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Khafee
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ahmet Pasha @Ali_Baba @ARMalik @Armchair @Arsalan 345 @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @krash @Khanivore @khansaheeb @loanranger @Maxpane @maximuswarrior @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @NA71 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Shane @Starlord @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @pakistanipower @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Signalian @Starlord @Super Falcon @_Sherdils_ @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Umair Nawaz @Vortex @war&peace @War Thunder @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar



Brother Patriotism is right I dun wanna de-grade your work or passion but in your clip, all clips are from US AIRFORCE and Greece rest from ISPR or Pakistan Air Force songs and few from pilots available on the youtube. Not a single clip is new as off you've mentioned.









PS: From past 15 years, I have only one task and that is to identify stuff esp gathering info, clips and images of Pakistan Armed forces esp Airforce. I even have PAF block 52 refueling videos with USAF as well but i am not allowed to post but if you want to see the pix, i will even capture from my video (other then the pix of our latest F16 Nevada trip).

Please always share authentic info and videos.

Remember, PAF Pilots not wearing beret dark green uniform + always watch closely PAF F16 color scheme is very different as compare to all other F16s in the world. Our dark blue pattern overlapping at the middle of the F16 bone (spread over wingspan).

Such kind of editing actually put negative impact on our passion of promotion @ global arena. Hope you understand my point. Good work!

@Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican

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## Talon

Maxpane said:


> @waz @Eagle@dubious plz remove his post
> 
> 
> @waz @Eagle @Dubious plz remove his post. this idiot is sharing confidential report
> 
> BC buhat chutia qoum hain hum. confidential reports utha k net pe laga dien. this guy should be ban now
> 
> @Hodor sir check it out . here he shared it
> this guy should be nan forever
> 
> where are the admins?????????!


Posting everywhere and making sure everyone sees it...Legend..!


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## Maxpane

Hodor said:


> Posting everywhere and making sure everyone sees it...Legend..!


qnd they say start war against india. am not afraid of india but traitors in our own .

admins are also sleeping today which is more frustrating

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maxpane said:


> qnd they say start war against india. am not afraid of india but traitors in our own .
> 
> admins are also sleeping today which is more frustrating


EID ka Din hai.. Mods bhi Insan hain

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## Maxpane

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> EID ka Din hai.. Mods bhi Insan hain


tu phr forum pe koi bhi jo bhi post kare us ko kon handle kare ga?

rat se kisi ne confidential report share ki ha but koi action nahn lia gaya . ager aise hi chalta raha tu pakistan ragra jaye ga ur forum bhi


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Maxpane said:


> tu phr forum pe koi bhi jo bhi post kare us ko kon handle kare ga?
> 
> rat se kisi ne confidential report share ki ha but koi action nahn lia gaya . ager aise hi chalta raha tu pakistan ragra jaye ga ur forum bhi


True butt we have to realise this if it is highly confidential then how was it in not protected at the source? Also intelligence agencies monitoring should have removed it using backdoor access.
What has happened has happened...We will see how to contain the situation in the future.


----------



## Maxpane

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> True butt we have to realise this if it is highly confidential then how was it in not protected at the source? Also intelligence agencies monitoring should have removed it using backdoor access.
> What has happened has happened...We will see how to contain the situation in the future.


sir even its written on the document which he shared. you can get all detail from top to bottom . you can find their rank their name . you can find everything


----------



## alimobin memon

Easily downloadable kindly do something or tell him edit this post


----------



## Super Falcon

Im not sure that these blk 70 will come better find other jets


----------



## Maxpane

Aj tu sare admun satu pe k soye hain. shabash


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

Maxpane said:


> sir even its written on the document which he shared. you can get all detail from top to bottom . you can find their rank their name . you can find everything


Nothing much can be done now... Cat is out of the box... 

Looking from a different angle maybe it is blessing in disguise that they have reported this information as this shows how PAF is gelled together as an organisation. This is a very serious message to all adversaries that Pakistan Air Force is Ready Come What May.


----------



## Maxpane

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Nothing much can be done now... Cat is out of the box...
> 
> Looking from a different angle maybe it is blessing in disguise that they have reported this information as this shows how PAF is gelled together as an organisation. This is a very serious message to all adversaries that Pakistan Air Force is Ready Come What May.


its not good . it makes me angry . BC it really hurting Pakistani institutions .
For few likes we can share confidential report. Disgusting ,pathatic

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## NA71

truthseeker2010 said:


> A sincere suggestion, you should work for Paf Media cell or ISPR, thats where you belong!



100% .....any one here with links in ISPR ...please refer @Trailer23's work.


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## Dubious

Maxpane said:


> Aj tu sare admun satu pe k soye hain. shabash


I guess when they get the award world will know

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## Maxpane

Dubious said:


> I guess when they get the award world will know


sir did you see the guy's post?


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## Dubious

Maxpane said:


> sir did you see the guy's post?


Now yes....


----------



## Maxpane

Dubious said:


> Now yes....


isnt it against the rule?


----------



## Dubious

Maxpane said:


> isnt it against the rule?


I am not sure if that information can be obtained now that awards will be given today...

@Irfan Baloch



Maxpane said:


> isnt it against the rule?


Plus it's been online and probably circulated on other forums by now...many members here share and spread things like wild fire


----------



## Maxpane

Dubious said:


> I am not sure if that information can be obtained now that awards will be given today...
> 
> @Irfan Baloch


ok as you wish . sorry . its your forum . you know better than me


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## Dubious

Maxpane said:


> ok as you wish . sorry . its your forum . you know better than me


I don't know hence why mentioned irfan bro


----------



## Maxpane

Dubious said:


> I am not sure if that information can be obtained now that awards will be given today...
> 
> @Irfan Baloch
> 
> 
> Plus it's been online and probably circulated on other forums by now...many members here share and spread things like wild fire


thats a real threat. you guys should make a good policy to counter these type of threat. a small mistake can damage a lot . you guys should be vigilant


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## Dubious

Maxpane said:


> thats a real threat. you guys should make a good policy to counter these type of threat. a small mistake can damage a lot . you guys should be vigilant


Yes I know I deleted it and every other post that was quoting it

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## Maxpane

Dubious said:


> Yes I know I deleted it and every other post that was quoting it


thanks a lot .

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## NA71

@Trailer23 Please make short promo for JF-17s with PAF officials ....A real promo. My personal favorite fighter jet and its film is :


----------



## Talon

Stealth said:


> Brother Patriotism is right I dun wanna de-grade your work or passion but in your clip, all clips are from US AIRFORCE and Greece rest from ISPR or Pakistan Air Force songs and few from pilots available on the youtube. Not a single clip is new as off you've mentioned.
> 
> 
> View attachment 573928
> 
> 
> 
> PS: From past 15 years, I have only one task and that is to identify stuff esp gathering info, clips and images of Pakistan Armed forces esp Airforce. I even have PAF block 52 refueling videos with USAF as well but i am not allowed to post but if you want to see the pix, i will even capture from my video (other then the pix of our latest F16 Nevada trip).
> 
> Please always share authentic info and videos.
> 
> Remember, PAF Pilots not wearing beret dark green uniform + always watch closely PAF F16 color scheme is very different as compare to all other F16s in the world. Our dark blue pattern overlapping at the middle of the F16 bone (spread over wingspan).
> 
> Such kind of editing actually put negative impact on our passion of promotion @ global arena. Hope you understand my point. Good work!
> 
> @Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican


Dont want to start a debate but before you point out anyone else make sure you yourself arent using pictures of other airforces :

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## Irfan Baloch

Dubious said:


> I am not sure if that information can be obtained now that awards will be given today...
> 
> @Irfan Baloch
> 
> 
> Plus it's been online and probably circulated on other forums by now...many members here share and spread things like wild fire



Person taking the snaps with names numbers and squadron must be punished

Its a disgraceful and criminal act 
If awards news was to be shared it coyld be done with just names with ranks

I think its done by someone in ministry of defence

I agree that once its out its impossible to retract the information

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## Khafee

Irfan Baloch said:


> Person taking the snaps with names numbers and squadron must be punished
> 
> Its a disgraceful and criminal act
> If awards news was to be shared it coyld be done with just names with ranks
> 
> I think its done by someone in ministry of defence
> 
> I agree that once its out its impossible to retract the information


Pls setup a thread to set guidelines for this kind of info. 

Would really appreciate it. 

Thanks!

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## Irfan Baloch

Hodor said:


> Dont want to start a debate but before you point out anyone else make sure you yourself arent using pictures of other airforces :
> 
> View attachment 573958
> View attachment 573959


Sadly our graphics designers have very limited number of high quality images or videos to work with 

Other forces employ professional cameramen with top end equipment to produce stunning visuals 

I do love our own content but will reluctantly let pass a foreign one if its merged seamlessly without foregn markings 

like done by our two good posters here
But yea keen eye will distinguish the local vs foreign stuff


----------



## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> Brother Patriotism is right I dun wanna de-grade your work or passion but in your clip, all clips are from US AIRFORCE and Greece rest from ISPR or Pakistan Air Force songs and few from pilots available on the youtube. Not a single clip is new as off you've mentioned.
> 
> 
> View attachment 573928
> 
> 
> 
> PS: From past 15 years, I have only one task and that is to identify stuff esp gathering info, clips and images of Pakistan Armed forces esp Airforce. I even have PAF block 52 refueling videos with USAF as well but i am not allowed to post but if you want to see the pix, i will even capture from my video (other then the pix of our latest F16 Nevada trip).
> 
> Please always share authentic info and videos.
> 
> Remember, PAF Pilots not wearing beret dark green uniform + always watch closely PAF F16 color scheme is very different as compare to all other F16s in the world. Our dark blue pattern overlapping at the middle of the F16 bone (spread over wingspan).
> 
> Such kind of editing actually put negative impact on our passion of promotion @ global arena. Hope you understand my point. Good work!
> 
> @Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican


Ap ne bachy ka dil tor diya i notice it with in few secound but not mention it

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## Talon

Irfan Baloch said:


> Sadly our graphics designers have very limited number of high quality images or videos to work with
> 
> Other forces employ professional cameramen with top end equipment to produce stunning visuals
> 
> I do love our own content but will reluctantly let pass a foreign one if its merged seamlessly without foregn markings
> 
> like done by our two good posters here
> But yea keen eye will distinguish the local vs foreign stuff


Usually when some squadron of PAF wants to make a documentary or video (say 50 years of mirage) they hire private firms with professional cameramen and I have seen very good examples of their work.These videos are usually out of reach of common man so they dont see the good stuff.Or they even call some individual photographer (PAF fans) and ask them to do a photoshoot and stuff (examples can be seen on Facebook,I dont want to name anyone.)

But when a project is under media affairs that's when things go wrong and we end up having songs like the one released yesterday.


----------



## Ghessan

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August





A job well done, time you’ve spend paid back. Thanks for sharing it, an impressive Independence Day gift.


----------



## Flight of falcon

Wait are you guys talking about my post of awards and pilots involved etc?? 

Are you bloody jokers serious? 

I do not have any inside source or anything. Heck I know two or three retired airforce guys who are useless !!

Sometime members act like juveniles and create drama .

It’s the screen shot from someone’s twitter account I came across. It looked ok so I posted it. Don’t even know if it’s true or not.


----------



## Dubious

Irfan Baloch said:


> Person taking the snaps with names numbers and squadron must be punished


Did you warn?

I wasnt sure what to do...the guy posted on 2 threads!



Flight of falcon said:


> It’s the screen shot from someone’s twitter account I came across. It looked ok so I posted it. Don’t even know if it’s true or not.


I dont think such information should be spread...That is why I deleted the post and didnt warn you...


----------



## Flight of falcon

GriffinsRule said:


> Reported for sharing confidential information, as clearly marked on the top of the images. Even the numbers for pilots are not edited! How careless and idiotic.




Really idiot having unit numbers will cause RAW agents to walk in and kidnap support team however the pilots who shot down the aircraft are walking around and photographed even with their kids..

You are the Maryam Nawaz of this forum.

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## Trailer23

Stealth said:


> Brother Patriotism is right I dun wanna de-grade your work or passion but in your clip, all clips are from US AIRFORCE and Greece rest from ISPR or Pakistan Air Force songs and few from pilots available on the youtube. *Not a single clip is new as off you've mentioned.*
> 
> Please always share authentic info and videos.
> 
> Remember, PAF Pilots not wearing beret dark green uniform + always watch closely PAF F16 color scheme is very different as compare to all other F16s in the world. Our dark blue pattern overlapping at the middle of the F16 bone (spread over wingspan).
> 
> Such kind of editing actually put negative impact on our passion of promotion @ global arena. Hope you understand my point. Good work!


...and Danish Air Force (Flyvevåbnet), and Belgian Air Force, and Dutch Air Force (Koninklijke Luchtmacht)...

I certainly don't want to get into a Pissing Contest with you, but do have one Question to ask before I respond to post...

*When exactly, did I mention 'NEW' while posting my video?









*

Infact, if you had flipped the page - you may have noticed that I spoke about not being enough footage out there.






Like yourself, PDF has a great number of brilliant minds present that with 1/2 a brain picked up that some of the fooatage isn't PAF. I'm certainly not even 8% of those brilliant minds. Frankly, i'm a nobody with a little talent - and a lot of passion.

Its not as if my video is going to be aired on National TV. Hell, those guys (PTV, Geo, Express etc.) use footage from the internet of other Air Forces'.

I know full well of my limited talent - with limited material. There was a time (before my Commercial Aviation line of work) when I worked as a non-liner editor on Premiere, Final Cut Pro for Channels like Ten Sports (DxB Media City) & Dubai Sports (Dubai).

You mentioned that such kind of editing could result in a negative impact on our passion @ global arena... Its a personal YouTube page, buddy. If anything, they'll point at me. And if they (whomsoever they may be) can kiss my A$$.

The video is just about The F-16 & our hopes of the Block 70/72 being in our inventory someday... I respect everyone opinion that it will or won't come.

Finally, if someone still thinks that I may have played or deceived with their emotions are welcome to take back their ''.

I'm only gonna tag the persons you did, so they should be able to get both sides of the story and not make one feel inferior - hope you understand.

@Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican



Stealth said:


> PS: From past 15 years, I have only one task and that is to identify stuff esp gathering info, clips and images of Pakistan Armed forces esp Airforce. I even have PAF block 52 refueling videos with USAF as well but i am not allowed to post but if you want to see the pix, i will even capture from my video (other then the pix of our latest F16 Nevada trip).



P.S.: You should see my collection...

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## Flight of falcon

Trailer23 said:


> ...and Danish Air Force (Flyvevåbnet), and Belgian Air Force, and Dutch Air Force (Koninklijke Luchtmacht)...
> 
> I certainly don't want to get into a Pissing Contest with you, but do have one Question to ask before I respond to post...
> 
> *When exactly, did I mention 'NEW' while posting my video?
> 
> View attachment 573960
> 
> View attachment 573961
> *
> 
> Infact, if you had flipped the page - you may have noticed that I spoke about not being enough footage out there.
> 
> View attachment 573962
> 
> 
> Like yourself, PDF has a great number of brilliant minds present that with 1/2 a brain picked up that some of the fooatage isn't PAF. I'm certainly not even 8% of those brilliant minds. Frankly, i'm a nobody with a little talent - and a lot of passion.
> 
> Its not as if my video is going to be aired on National TV. Hell, those guys (PTV, Geo, Express etc.) use footage from the internet of other Air Forces'.
> 
> I know full well of my limited talent - with limited material. There was a time (before my Commercial Aviation line of work) when I worked as a non-liner editor on Premiere, Final Cut Pro for Channels like Ten Sports (DxB Media City) & Dubai Sports (Dubai).
> 
> You mentioned that such kind of editing could result in a negative impact on our passion @ global arena... Its a personal YouTube page, buddy. If anything, they'll point at me. And if they (whomsoever they may be) can kiss my A$$.
> 
> The video is just about The F-16 & our hopes of the Block 70/72 being in our inventory someday... I respect everyone opinion that it will or won't come.
> 
> Finally, if someone still thinks that I may have played or deceived with their emotions are welcome to take back their ''.
> 
> I'm only gonna tag the persons you did, so they should be able to get both sides of the story and not make one feel inferior - hope you understand.
> 
> @Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.: You should see my collection...




Bro I noticed too that few shots were not from PAF but who cares . You did a wonderful job and I forwarded your video to my friends and even the most picky guy liked your video. Keep it up.

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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> i notice it with in few secound but not mention it





Trailer23 said:


> Like yourself, PDF has a great number of brilliant minds present that with 1/2 a brain picked up that some of the fooatage isn't PAF.





Imran Khan said:


> Ap ne bachy ka dil tor diya


Na karo bhai - aap nay 40 saal kay bodhay ka dil jeet leya 14 Aug ko, 'batcha' kh-kay. Abhe jakay begum ko bata hoon...

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## Khafee

Trailer23 said:


> Na karo bhai - aap nay 40 saal kay bodhay ka dil jeet leya 14 Aug ko, 'batcha' kh-kay. Abhe jakay begum ko bata hoon...




You did an extremely good job, and now you proved you have a sense of humor too. Keep up the good work Bro

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Sale of F16 platform to Pakistan/Turkey would reignite positive relations between USA and Pakistan/Turkey (Manufacturing)


The talk of Super Cobra
The talk of F16V


Too good to be true the only issue I see is when?
Before discussion on F16V the key item is Super Cobra fleet release to Pakistan

I don't understand why the Super Cobra fleet is stuck in lineup


----------



## Khafee

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Sale of F16 platform to Pakistan/Turkey would reignite positive relations between USA and Pakistan/Turkey (Manufacturing)
> 
> 
> The talk of Super Cobra
> The talk of F16V
> 
> 
> Too good to be true the only issue I see is when?
> Before discussion on F16V the key item is *Super Cobra fleet* release to Pakistan
> 
> I don't understand why the Super Cobra fleet is stuck in lineup


Has the preparatory & infra work been completed in Multan?


----------



## Ghessan

Khafee said:


> Has the preparatory & infra work been completed in Multan?



is it? are they waiting for preparations at the destination, hence ready to deliver?


----------



## Trailer23

Irfan Baloch said:


> But yea keen eye will distinguish the local vs foreign stuff


Though people have seen this in the past, but, when I feel like I want to kick @$$ - i'm able to produce 1 second clips which require almost 6hrs of hard work.






Hope I don't get sued by the US Navy.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Khafee said:


> Has the preparatory & infra work been completed in Multan?



Itni to taiyari shadi per bhi nahi hoti , aek tamboo lagta hai out door


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Flight of falcon said:


> Really idiot having unit numbers will cause RAW agents to walk in and kidnap support team however the pilots who shot down the aircraft are walking around and photographed even with their kids..
> 
> You are the Maryam Nawaz of this forum.


we don't share such information just because military personnel have a social life

giving away ranks, personal numbers and formation details along with full names is helping hostile agencies with a bigger intelligence gathering drive. 
yes there might be satellite photos, there maybe facebook pictures or just plane sighting of such places and personnel but that data sheet is like a key to link them all together.
all I am interested is how this picture was received was it first hand or passed by someone else so that we can respectfully request not to do something similar.



Trailer23 said:


> Though people have seen this in the past, but, when I feel like I want to kick @$$ - i'm able to produce 1 second clips which require almost 6hrs of hard work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope I don't get sued by the US Navy.


kick ***
you rock

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## Flight of falcon

Trailer23 said:


> Though people have seen this in the past, but, when I feel like I want to kick @$$ - i'm able to produce 1 second clips which require almost 6hrs of hard work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope I don't get sued by the US Navy.




So you are the one making Maryam Nawz secret videos)))))


Irfan Baloch said:


> we don't share such information just because military personnel have a social life
> 
> giving away ranks, personal numbers and formation details along with full names is helping hostile agencies with a bigger intelligence gathering drive.
> yes there might be satellite photos, there maybe facebook pictures or just plane sighting of such places and personnel but that data sheet is like a key to link them all together.
> all I am interested is how this picture was received was it first hand or passed by someone else so that we can respectfully request not to do something similar.
> 
> 
> kick ***
> you rock





As I said I took snapshots from someone’s twitter feed . I don’t know anyone in Pakistan visited there only once in almost 31 years. This guy whose picture I used is also not in the airforce. I will ask him where he got it from.


----------



## Trailer23

Flight of falcon said:


> So you are the one making Maryam Nawz secret videos)))))


Ha ha ha...
If only those secret videos were in my possession - I sure as hell wouldn't be sharing it with you guys.

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## Stealth

Hodor said:


> Dont want to start a debate but before you point out anyone else make sure you yourself arent using pictures of other airforces :
> 
> View attachment 573958
> View attachment 573959



PS: These images not designed by me "Before you point out anyone else, makesure you yourself first know whether the tagged guy really editted that image or not"

Now first and important, BSX is not owned by me from past 3 years and also there are more than 15 member of team including 7 designers editting BSX posts.... lol

Thanks for your "don't wanna start a debate" post 



Trailer23 said:


> ...and Danish Air Force (Flyvevåbnet), and Belgian Air Force, and Dutch Air Force (Koninklijke Luchtmacht)...
> 
> I certainly don't want to get into a Pissing Contest with you, but do have one Question to ask before I respond to post...
> 
> *When exactly, did I mention 'NEW' while posting my video?
> 
> View attachment 573960
> 
> View attachment 573961
> *
> 
> Infact, if you had flipped the page - you may have noticed that I spoke about not being enough footage out there.
> 
> View attachment 573962
> 
> 
> Like yourself, PDF has a great number of brilliant minds present that with 1/2 a brain picked up that some of the fooatage isn't PAF. I'm certainly not even 8% of those brilliant minds. Frankly, i'm a nobody with a little talent - and a lot of passion.
> 
> Its not as if my video is going to be aired on National TV. Hell, those guys (PTV, Geo, Express etc.) use footage from the internet of other Air Forces'.
> 
> I know full well of my limited talent - with limited material. There was a time (before my Commercial Aviation line of work) when I worked as a non-liner editor on Premiere, Final Cut Pro for Channels like Ten Sports (DxB Media City) & Dubai Sports (Dubai).
> 
> You mentioned that such kind of editing could result in a negative impact on our passion @ global arena... Its a personal YouTube page, buddy. If anything, they'll point at me. And if they (whomsoever they may be) can kiss my A$$.
> 
> The video is just about The F-16 & our hopes of the Block 70/72 being in our inventory someday... I respect everyone opinion that it will or won't come.
> 
> Finally, if someone still thinks that I may have played or deceived with their emotions are welcome to take back their ''.
> 
> I'm only gonna tag the persons you did, so they should be able to get both sides of the story and not make one feel inferior - hope you understand.
> 
> @Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.: You should see my collection...




Chill lol

Hope you knw that media is always sux esp when it comes to reporting something related to defence/military. In today's world, social media pages and posts having more impact and accessible to the international audience than our local media. So whenever we have posted something which not actually represents us in real, it go against us in a longer run.

Anway, you've taken my post from a negative perspective. I completely agreed that we don't have much footages and a good quality images of our armed forces and that is the reason we are far behind in presenting our military good power projection. I gone through all these stages decade ago almost. I have direct relations and even debate/communication with higher ups including chief(s) of the Pakistan armed forces including DG(s) and those who have power to implement (A/V directors in ISPR) and request them to bring something like American kinda stuff (coverage) like they do for their armed forces. 

Trust me they have lot of high quality stuff including videos (captured from latest 4K) and images. Many of them I saw my self. Brilliantly captured esp awesome ariel footages of air force and gunships of PA but they're not published anywhere for some reason. I have seen IL78 footage while refueling PAF but again still I haven't seen that footage in any of the song or available metarial so there are some reasons personally I knew few but still I didn't buy those excuses anyway.

Thanks and keep continue with your work!



Imran Khan said:


> Ap ne bachy ka dil tor diya i notice it with in few secound but not mention it



Bachay nay msg in a negative way lya hey lol  acha may bhuda hoon aur tu 13 saal ka kaka haina lol anyway there is a difference ....The video begins with the PAF logo I guess aren't a general F16 promo video specifically that is why i have point out that. Secondly I didn't read all of his posts (in the same thread) so I didn't know the full debate/context. Just gotta hind of PAF promo context so within the spectrum of that, I responded. 

hoon qoute kita tenu chitar lasaan may lol

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## loanranger

I wish we had new videos on PAF so that we would be able to make videos to our hearts content

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## Stealth

Enjoy this  cut piece from 38 min vid ... PAF latest F16 A2AR

1. Cut few secs of clip
2. Re-edit twice so that all the binary code removed no location data etc
3. Again re-edit with filter 
4. Reduced the size

Apologized not allowed to share full...






@Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican @Trailer23

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## TOPGUN

Stealth said:


> Enjoy this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican @Trailer23



Stealth bro, is that Blk 70 ?


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## Stealth

TOPGUN said:


> Stealth bro, is that Blk 70 ?



Nope blk 52 of PAF

 the vid is 38 mins but i highly apologized not allowed to share so this is just a cut piece from 38 mins of PAF nevada last visit

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## TOPGUN

Stealth said:


> Ya
> 
> the vid is 38 mins but i highly apologized not allowed to share so this is just a cut piece from 38 mins of PAF nevada last visit



That's works for me bro

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## Khafee

Stealth said:


> Enjoy this  cut piece from 38 min vid ... PAF latest F16 A2AR
> 
> 1. Cut few secs of clip
> 2. Re-edit twice so that all the binary code removed no location data etc
> 3. Again re-edit with filter
> 4. Reduced the size
> 
> Apologized not allowed to share full...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican @Trailer23


Congratulations on getting the Zulu before PA 



Stealth said:


> Ya
> 
> the vid is 38 mins but i highly apologized not allowed to share so this is just a cut piece from 38 mins of PAF nevada last visit


Share what you can with @Trailer23 so he can come up with new exciting stuff.

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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> Enjoy this  cut piece from 38 min vid ... PAF latest F16 A2AR
> 
> 1. Cut few secs of clip
> 2. Re-edit twice so that all the binary code removed no location data etc
> 3. Again re-edit with filter
> 4. Reduced the size
> 
> Apologized not allowed to share full...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican @Trailer23


when was this recorded its seems block52 been refueling .again training for next red flag ? or old red flag 2016?



TOPGUN said:


> Stealth bro, is that Blk 70 ?


block-52 sir ji

https://quwa.org/2016/07/27/pakistani-f-16s-red-flag-green-flag-exercises/



Khafee said:


> Congratulations on getting the Zulu before PA
> 
> 
> Share what you can with @Trailer23 so he can come up with new exciting stuff.


he take that sh1t so serious wasting too much money on it  ajkal ke bachy bhi na 



Trailer23 said:


> Na karo bhai - aap nay 40 saal kay bodhay ka dil jeet leya 14 Aug ko, 'batcha' kh-kay. Abhe jakay begum ko bata hoon...


dekh leen how much we loved you

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## Trailer23

TOPGUN said:


> ...is that Blk 70 ?


We wish it was...

Its a Block 52 from Sqn no. 5 (Falcons) - Serial no. 10903

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## Secret Service

Are they really coming ? Couldnt go through complete thread


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## batmannow

Stealth said:


> Ya
> 
> the vid is 38 mins but i highly apologized not allowed to share so this is just a cut piece from 38 mins of PAF nevada last visit


Decade old mind set dyin for a glimpse of a fighter jet which is already absolute in the world?
There is nothin anything special evn if it's BLK 90 or dam 99, these r old jets, just like a AMG whichs been customized years out and in?
Whts thier worth in a a dog fight not against a rattled airforce like IAF bt against a real deal like Israeli airforce?
How long it can stand?
I gss BLK 3 of JFT would be a better choice thn tht, cause this dam thing is letting our national pride clipped into some child molester American senators hands?
Who like a dam vice roy, can announced a ban anytime he is roughed up?
Time has long gone for PAF to deattach itself from, that fake sense of ownership of tht dam machine?
PAF should get some, next gen fighter jets from RUSSIA and thn look into its blue prints and mesh up tht tech with the experience from tht F16+JFT structures???





Thts the latest of BLK 999 PAF is willing to get from usa??????


----------



## Stealth

batmannow said:


> Decade old mind set dyin for a glimpse of a fighter jet which is already absolute in the world?
> There is nothin anything special evn if it's BLK 90 or dam 99, these r old jets, just like a AMG whichs been customized years out and in?
> Whts thier worth in a a dog fight not against a rattled airforce like IAF bt against a real deal like Israeli airforce?
> How long it can stand?
> I gss BLK 3 of JFT would be a better choice thn tht, cause this dam thing is letting our national pride clipped into some child molester American senators hands?
> Who like a dam vice roy, can announced a ban anytime he is roughed up?
> Time has long gone for PAF to deattach itself from, that fake sense of ownership of tht dam machine?
> PAF should get some, next gen fighter jets from RUSSIA and thn look into its blue prints and mesh up tht tech with the experience from tht F16+JFT structures???



The money, geopolitics, strategic and training + budget thesr are the mahor factors of sticking with F16  every nation and mil enthusiasts from any counter wish that their armed forces have carrier battlegroup, F18 raptor F35 etc but the reality forces only have those weapons which thr economy support to buy

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## TOPGUN

Trailer23 said:


> We wish it was...
> 
> Its a Block 52 from Sqn no. 5 (Falcons) - Serial no. 10903



That's what I thought thanks.

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## Stealth

TOPGUN said:


> That's what I thought thanks.



Sorry my bad i was driving at the moment and thought you're talk about 52... yes its Blk52 not BLK 70....70 still on paper (only offered to Indian Airforce).

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## Imran Khan

Secret Service said:


> Are they really coming ? Couldnt go through complete thread


@Khafee bhai ne truck ki batti ke peechy laga rakha hai .



Stealth said:


> Sorry my bad i was driving at the moment and thought you're talk about 52... yes its Blk52 not BLK 70....70 still on paper (only offered to Indian Airforce).


truck chalana shuru ker diya mery sohny bhai ne ?

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## Khafee

Imran Khan said:


> @Khafee bhai ne truck ki batti ke peechy laga rakha hai .
> 
> 
> truck chalana shuru ker diya mery sohny bhai ne ?


There is another #khafee leaks in the works. You just wait!

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## denel

Secret Service said:


> Are they really coming ? Couldnt go through complete thread


just dreams only.

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## Trailer23

batmannow said:


> Decade old mind set dyin for a glimpse of a fighter jet which is already absolute in the world?
> There is nothin anything special evn if it's BLK 90 or dam 99, these r old jets


Yeah, those very obsolete jets made short work of the mighty Su-30MKi...

Making statements like nothing special even if its a Block 90 (your world) - shows your thought process and that you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about.



batmannow said:


> Whts thier worth in a a dog fight not against a rattled airforce like IAF bt against a real deal like Israeli airforce?
> How long it can stand?


Riiiight..., we now have to worry about Israel _too_... Brilliant! As if India, Afghanistan & Iran weren't enough - you had to bring those Jews into the conversation. Tell you what, why don't you add your Thai Air Force into the mix too...?!!



batmannow said:


> PAF should get some, next gen fighter jets from RUSSIA and thn look into its blue prints and mesh up tht tech with the experience from tht F16+JFT structures???


Fascinating. Lets get all our Leaders and ship you off to Siberian land & then you can mediate a deal with the Pro-Indian nation to offer us a Next-Gen Fighter and also make certain that they don't offer it to India.



batmannow said:


> Thts the latest of BLK 999 PAF is willing to get from usa??????


One the mysteries of PDF - How the hell did you get the title of: ELITE MEMBER?

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> There is another #khafee leaks in the works. You just wait!


i will be agree with you if you say UAE will transfer block60 to pakistan but USA will not give a rat sh1t .



denel said:


> just dreams only.


HE NEED TO GO OUT block72 delivery boy is outside waiting for deliver parcel

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## TsAr

Khafee said:


> There is another #khafee leaks in the works. You just wait!


Khafee navy recently conducted testing of harba, any news of a test from PAF.

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## denel

Imran Khan said:


> i will be agree with you if you say UAE will transfer block60 to pakistan but USA will not give a rat sh1t .
> 
> 
> HE NEED TO GO OUT block72 delivery boy is outside waiting for deliver parcel


... this is a good one. may the fairy god mother deliver PAF away from its addictions.

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## Imran Khan

denel said:


> ... this is a good one. may the fairy god mother deliver PAF away from its addictions.


i will ask Santa to give me block72 at this Christmas

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## Pakistani Fighter

Khafee said:


> There is another #khafee leaks in the works. You just wait!


Block 60??


----------



## Humble Analyst

Khafee said:


> There is another #khafee leaks in the works. You just wait!


Sir would you please say what is block 61? This you mentioned on anther thread. Is this the hybrid between 50 and 72? Engine half Pratt half GE @Khafee


----------



## Stealth

Imran Khan said:


> @Khafee bhai ne truck ki batti ke peechy laga rakha hai .
> 
> 
> truck chalana shuru ker diya mery sohny bhai ne ?


****** shaks...

wesay idhar Sikh idhar Truck chaltay hain *** 90,000 - $1,50,000 tak karletay hain agloo nay daba kar properties bana rakhe hain soooch hey teri lol

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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> ****** shaks...
> 
> wesay idhar Sikh idhar Truck chaltay hain *** 90,000 - $1,50,000 tak karletay hain agloo nay daba kar properties bana rakhe hain soooch hey teri lol


oper wala aysy 150000 se bachay sir .  lagy raho ap

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## batmannow

Stealth said:


> The money, geopolitics, strategic and training + budget thesr are the mahor factors of sticking with F16  every nation and mil enthusiasts from any counter wish that their armed forces have carrier battlegroup, F18 raptor F35 etc but the reality forces only have those weapons which thr economy support to buy


All these r fake dam stupid excuses when, we were about to start up JFT programe, thn were we top 10 economies in te world?
Or we were living with usa?
This all old dam. Mantra, pushed into ur minds, cause someone ill get commision kickbacks on these jets and Thts it, if we can train ourselves to a. New platform like JFT thn hell we can train on any dam newer jets for sure it's the mental blockege our so called late 80s and 90s military leadership who just finds one dam word written in thier minds and its dam F16S?

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## MastanKhan

Trailer23 said:


> Na karo bhai - aap nay 40 saal kay bodhay ka dil jeet leya 14 Aug ko, 'batcha' kh-kay. Abhe jakay begum ko bata hoon...



Hi,

Kia baat karta hai londay----40 saal kay bachay ho tum---budha tau mein hoon basatth saal ka---.

40 saal ki umar mein maein to kalabaaziaan lagaiya karta tha mein---kamal hai ji---

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## Khafee

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Kia baat karta hai londay----40 saal kay bachay ho tum---budha tau mein hoon basatth saal ka---.
> 
> 40 saal ki umar mein maein to kalabaaziaan lagaiya karta tha mein---kamal hai ji---


May Allah give you a long healthy and wealthy life.

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## Basel

Khafee said:


> 120D's are coming in larger qtys, than 120C7.
> 
> IAF will never be able to eat PAF, before Sept or after. The are other things in the equation.



We need AIM-9X or similar missile for F-16 with JHMCS, is any thing coming in that class??


----------



## Super Falcon

batmannow said:


> All these r fake dam stupid excuses when, we were about to start up JFT programe, thn were we top 10 economies in te world?
> Or we were living with usa?
> This all old dam. Mantra, pushed into ur minds, cause someone ill get commision kickbacks on these jets and Thts it, if we can train ourselves to a. New platform like JFT thn hell we can train on any dam newer jets for sure it's the mental blockege our so called late 80s and 90s military leadership who just finds one dam word written in thier minds and its dam F16S?


Its all about kickbacks


----------



## Trailer23

Basel said:


> We need AIM-9X or similar missile for F-16 with JHMCS, is any thing coming in that class??


They (Sidewinder X) cost roughly around $600,000/-

You could get Two AIM-120 (AMRAAM) for that price.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*Past experience*
Khafee Leaks : 2019
-----> Orders placed :2022
-----> First Demo flies : 2025
------> Deliveries complete :2030


We get 6 more F16V



*Alternative Approach*
We ramp up JF17 Production 2019
------------>Get 50 Block II 2020
------------>Get 25 Block III 2021
------------>Get 50 Block III 2023

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## Khafee

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Past experience
> 
> Khafee Leaks : 2019
> -----> Orders placed :2022
> -----> First Demo flies : 2025
> ------> Deliveries complete :2030



Khafee Leaks : 2019
-----> Orders placed :2020
-----> First Demo flies : 2021~2022
------> Deliveries complete :2022~2023



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *Alternative Approach*
> We ramp up JF17 Production 2019
> ---------------Get 50 planes for 2020
> ---------------Get 25 Block III 2021
> ---------------Get 50 Block III 2023



------------>Get 75 Block III 2020
------------>Get 125 Block III 2021
------------>Get 175 Block III 2023

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Technically we can get both too

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## Khafee

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Technically we can get both too


InShaAllah THAT is the plan

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## Thorough Pro

Is this from recent exercises in Turkey? or are you suggesting that somehow we acquired these tankers and nobody found out?




Stealth said:


> Enjoy this  cut piece from 38 min vid ... PAF latest F16 A2AR
> 
> 1. Cut few secs of clip
> 2. Re-edit twice so that all the binary code removed no location data etc
> 3. Again re-edit with filter
> 4. Reduced the size
> 
> Apologized not allowed to share full...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Imran Khan @TOPGUN @Mrc @Hakikat ve Hikmet @Flight of falcon @Horus @Khafee @Thorough Pro @Zulfiqar @Super Falcon @MastanKhan @Baloch Pakistani @graphican @Trailer23


----------



## Humble Analyst

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Kia baat karta hai londay----40 saal kay bachay ho tum---budha tau mein hoon basatth saal ka---.
> 
> 40 saal ki umar mein maein to kalabaaziaan lagaiya karta tha mein---kamal hai ji---


Kya saheeh baat hay 40 saal men to Banda Banda hota hay hehehe

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## xyxmt

why are we want F16 when we say our JF-17 is F16+1

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## batmannow

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *Past experience*
> Khafee Leaks : 2019
> -----> Orders placed :2022
> -----> First Demo flies : 2025
> ------> Deliveries complete :2030
> 
> 
> We get 6 more F16V
> 
> 
> 
> *Alternative Approach*
> We ramp up JF17 Production 2019
> ------------>Get 50 Block II 2020
> ------------>Get 25 Block III 2021
> ------------>Get 50 Block III 2023


We hve enough of tht dam plane, world has moved on from tht tech of 70s?
We should go for Mass productions of JFTs, yes bt we should get a strike force constructed which can hit any where in our enemy's heart and mind?
And for tht only, SU35s r the best avalible platform which I'll continue to grow up, 24 of those jets not only put a gunter of our deep strike capabilities bt it also put a bond with Russia, after which with some research we can develop some other high tech jets consisted of top Russian and American tech which we would hve used so, hve a newer, bigger and latest technological knowledge will emerge which can bring a very dangerous product in our hands in 20 more years to come which will surly balance our relience on just one power for our defence?



xyxmt said:


> why are we want F16 when we say our JF-17 is F16+1


It's a mindset problem, and it may bring more kickbacks


----------



## Ultima Thule

batmannow said:


> We hve enough of tht dam plane, world has moved on from tht tech of 70s?
> We should go for Mass productions of JFTs, yes bt we should get a strike force constructed which can hit any where in our enemy's heart and mind?
> And for tht only, SU35s r the best avalible platform which I'll continue to grow up, 24 of those jets not only put a gunter of our deep strike capabilities bt it also put a bond with Russia, after which with some research we can develop some other high tech jets consisted of top Russian and American tech which we would hve used so, hve a newer, bigger and latest technological knowledge will emerge which can bring a very dangerous product in our hands in 20 more years to come which will surly balance our relience on just one power for our defence?
> 
> 
> It's a mindset problem, and it may bring more kickbacks


Too early to assume that we can get Su-35 From Russia, we just started our warm relations with Russia, its take time to build trust b/w 2 countries, J-10C will be good option, and how many country using 5th or 4.5th gen jets in the world please tell me, with a exception of EF-2000/RAFALE/Gripen most of the 4.5th gen jets are upgrades of older 4thgen jets @batmannow

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## Stealth

Thorough Pro said:


> Is this from recent exercises in Turkey? or are you suggesting that somehow we acquired these tankers and nobody found out?



The footage from Red Flag exercise (last one not 2010) in which PAF new F16s have been participated. The tanker belongs to USAF.

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## batmannow

pakistanipower said:


> Too early to assume that we can get Su-35 From Russia, we just started our warm relations with Russia, its take time to build trust b/w 2 countries, J-10C will be good option, and how many country using 5th or 4.5th gen jets in the world please tell me, with a exception of EF-2000/RAFALE/Gripen most of the 4.5th gen jets are upgrades of older 4thgen jets @batmannow





pakistanipower said:


> Too early to assume that we can get Su-35 From Russia, we just started our warm relations with Russia, its take time to build trust b/w 2 countries, J-10C will be good option, and how many country using 5th or 4.5th gen jets in the world please tell me, with a exception of EF-2000/RAFALE/Gripen most of the 4.5th gen jets are upgrades of older 4thgen jets @batmannow


I don't mind going towards China bt if u compare it with Russian tech, Russians r clearly more experienced and capable of those 2?
About Russians acceptance, of our buying, it hell more easier then wht we hve suffered for a dam F16S in our history?
And actully, Russians r more eager to let us buy it, cause then thy can square off with india which isn't buying anymore jets from Russia, once any deal comes up with pakistan, hell India may shoot a bigger order to Russia?
So our deal will be much more valuable for Russia, cause it can open Russia to many other countries who r still in Americans strategical web?

From China in case, we should go for other toys which can be more capable then j10s?
Cause j10s r similar, to F16S or very near to, it thus we need a deep striker then a defender jet?
J11 b or J20S can be better choice thn J10s?
And I gss, 1 or more times Russian defence minstry officials found interested in su 35 deal with Pakistan, bt it's the mind set if some of our military leadership who gets kickbacks and whole of thier dam families becomes immigrants in America Thy can live, do studies, and thier kids can work thier? Thts the bitter part behind Pakistans over relience on F16S?
with Russia its just ill be military hard ware deal bt not the perks these old mindset looking for thier kids future?
There should be a inquiry tht why PAF like to buy dam F16S, it's a big scandle for me at least


----------



## Ultima Thule

batmannow said:


> I don't mind going towards China bt if u compare it with Russian tech, Russians r clearly more experienced and capable of those 2?
> About Russians acceptance, of our buying, it hell more easier then wht we hve suffered for a dam F16S in our history?
> And actully, Russians r more eager to let us buy it, cause then thy can square off with india which isn't buying anymore jets from Russia, once any deal comes up with pakistan, hell India may shoot a bigger order to Russia?
> So our deal will be much more valuable for Russia, cause it can open Russia to many other countries who r still in Americans strategical web?
> 
> From China in case, we should go for other toys which can be more capable then j10s?
> Cause j10s r similar, to F16S or very near to, it thus we need a deep striker then a defender jet?
> J11 b or J20S can be better choice thn J10s?
> And I gss, 1 or more times Russian defence minstry officials found interested in su 35 deal with Pakistan, bt it's the mind set if some of our military leadership who gets kickbacks and whole of thier dam families becomes immigrants in America Thy can live, do studies, and thier kids can work thier? Thts the bitter part behind Pakistans over relience on F16S?
> with Russia its just ill be military hard ware deal bt not the perks these old mindset looking for thier kids future?
> There should be a inquiry tht why PAF like to buy dam F16S, it's a big scandle for me at least


Bro Bro you should consider Russian want a hard cash not like USA or China they will gives their weapons on CSF/soft loans respectively, we currently have no $$$$ to purchase big ticket items from Russia, but your Choice of J-11/J-20s is out of equation, China can't export J-11 because its design is Russian INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, J-20 is Barred for export according to Chinese governmental laws like USAF F-22, and cheaper option will be latest version of JH-7, its have a heavy payloads,it can defend itself using BVR etc etc @batmannow

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## Trailer23

Holy Sh!t. Its like going to *Toys R Us*.

Lets get some some Su-35's, and some J-10's. Ooh ooh, how about some J-20's as well.

Why not get some Su-57's while we're at it... Khuab pora!

One of the things, that people fail to realize is that though Democrats seem very likable (Clinton/Obama), they've never sided with Pakistan. We always managed to have a better understanding with Republicans (Reagan/Bush Snr/Bush Jr and what appears to be in the form of Trump.

Apparently, F-16 is old tech & the world has moved on... Riiight... I guess no one gave that memo to the 5-6 Nations that just placed orders for those Block 70/72's.

With F-16's, you've got nearly 4 decades of experience Pilot & Maintenance Crew. Its parts are available Worldwide.

The Su-35. Has anyone even bought that jet as of late? If it breaks down, and Russia sides with India not to sell us spares. They're just expensive paper weights.

I'm sure the Sukhoi is a great jet with its vector thrust & barrel rolls, but we're not looking for a jet that is used only in Air Shows (no offence India).

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## batmannow

frist listen from the mouth of one of Pakistans elite pilot says about F16S!
Thn remember one thing, it's not Jst money which plays role in life?
As we all see, cepec and the situation in Iran and Afghanistan RUSSIA, CHINAs preference will be pakistan because of its location and tht also plays a biger part in deals, I gss Russian president putin is comming soon to Islamabad, and I won't be shocked if this SU 35s deal gets announced and belive me Russia has bigger and better history in making deals and keeping them thn if USA?
RUSSIA also can give soft loans and can negociate some deal with pakistan, so I still see a chance seeing a SU35 in pakistani camouflaged colors???



Trailer23 said:


> Holy Sh!t. Its like going to *Toys R Us*.
> 
> Lets get some some Su-35's, and some J-10's. Ooh ooh, how about some J-20's as well.
> 
> Why not get some Su-57's while we're at it... Khuab pora!
> 
> One of the things, that people fail to realize is that though Democrats seem very likable (Clinton/Obama), they've never sided with Pakistan. We always managed to have a better understanding with Republicans (Reagan/Bush Snr/Bush Jr and what appears to be in the form of Trump.
> 
> Apparently, F-16 is old tech & the world has moved on... Riiight... I guess no one gave that memo to the 5-6 Nations that just placed orders for those Block 70/72's.
> 
> With F-16's, you've got nearly 4 decades of experience Pilot & Maintenance Crew. Its parts are available Worldwide.
> 
> The Su-35. Has anyone even bought that jet as of late? If it breaks down, and Russia sides with India not to sell us spares. They're just expensive paper weights.
> 
> I'm sure the Sukhoi is a great jet with its vector thrust & barrel rolls, but we're not looking for a jet that is used only in Air Shows (no offence India).


Sure thn we shouldnt hve made. JFT s and shouldn't spent so much money when we hve our dam experience with F16S?
Or else we should hve asked 104 starfighters cause thy r more older then dam F16S in our fleet?
We should hve stick with all old world War 2 jets cause we had experiences with them?
Evn Sabers we should be flying them, cause thy were best jets in our airforce?
With ur logic, we should live a happy life untill this world ends with F16S and get our pride gets kicked out by any dam American president Or its any key officials when ever thy be having a bad mood????

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## Trailer23

@batmannow 
Times change. Leaders change. Politics change.

Going into a venture with the Chinese was a good move because we required to have an in-house jet that we could call our own.

You're so hell bent on the Russian Su-35's...fine. When the UN Security Council is in session in regard to Kashmir..., we'll find out how much your Russian friends would be willing to do business with Pakistan. I bet my (retro) Air Jordan IV that they'll VETO.

Even if I were to buy your rhetoric about buying the Sukhoi's...it would suit India just well. Make us spend Millions on Russian equipment & then India would dictate of what needs to be done.

Now coming to the United States... Seriously, we've seen what its like to be on the wrong side of a Super Power like the US. Sure, you have next Super Power in the form of China next to you, but they aren't handing out J-10's, Destroyers & Aircraft Carriers like candy in our direction either.

Dealing with the US is not just about Defense Contracts and Aid. There is (always) a bigger picture in play.

Finally, I admire Shahid Latif as much as the next guy. The man was one of the first to go to the US to get trained on the F-16 & was also the first to land it on our soil. However, his statements have changed in regards to the events of 27th Feb. On a couple of occasions he spoke of the F-16 going up against the MiG-21.

The might of the F-16 in the PAF inventory has proven over & over - as Wg Cdr. Noman Ali Khan & Sqn Ldr. Hasan Siddiqui are living proof.

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## Ultima Thule

batmannow said:


> Sure thn we shouldnt hve made. JFT s and shouldn't spent so much money when we hve our dam experience with F16S?
> Or else we should hve asked 104 starfighters cause thy r more older then dam F16S in our fleet?
> We should hve stick with all old world War 2 jets cause we had experiences with them?
> Evn Sabers we should be flying them, cause thy were best jets in our airforce?
> With ur logic, we should live a happy life untill this world ends with F16S and get our pride gets kicked out by any dam American president Or its any key officials when ever thy be having a bad mood????


F-16 is still consider one of the most feared and versatile jet, and why USAF and others respected air forces using this so called your OUTDATED jet @batmannow

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## Signalian

Khafee said:


> InShaAllah THAT is the plan


R&D in PAF/PAC/Air Uni is abysmal.


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## Signalian

batmannow said:


> Decade old mind set dyin for a glimpse of a fighter jet which is already absolute in the world?
> There is nothin anything special evn if it's BLK 90 or dam 99, these r old jets, just like a AMG whichs been customized years out and in?
> Whts thier worth in a a dog fight not against a rattled airforce like IAF bt against a real deal like Israeli airforce?
> How long it can stand?
> I gss BLK 3 of JFT would be a better choice thn tht, cause this dam thing is letting our national pride clipped into some child molester American senators hands?
> Who like a dam vice roy, can announced a ban anytime he is roughed up?
> Time has long gone for PAF to deattach itself from, that fake sense of ownership of tht dam machine?
> PAF should get some, next gen fighter jets from RUSSIA and thn look into its blue prints and mesh up tht tech with the experience from tht F16+JFT structures???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thts the latest of BLK 999 PAF is willing to get from usa??????


Psychological factor plays its part so F-16 thrives in PAF. Logically 70 odd planes shouldn't be a threat to 200+ modern planes of IAF, but these 70 F-16's will cause massive damage and losses to IAF before they are shot down. 

V-upgrade to older MLUs wouldn't increase range and in most cases wouldn't affect payload too, but a few extra sensors and some new ordnance type will always cause a deeply rooted headache to IAF. A small thorn stems into poisoned ivy. What was once thought to be a BVR(W)-less aircraft, basically toothless fighter, has risen to become an un-avoidable constant threat in the air. Same is the case with PAF Mirages about which IAF knows that they can be expected into IAF airspace in the middle of the night on any date. Suddenly 240 SU-30 start to feel too less in numbers, Tejas becomes incapable of taking the insecurity away and now all faith is shifted into Rafale as a saviour from PAF's old and seemingly obsolete aircraft. Interim solution for Rafale is F-16 V upgrade or Block 70/72. Another psychological play card that acquisition of a new weapons platform will not let IAF enjoy the superiority which it so badly wants as its earned right (due to size and budget basically economy and weapons race) over a smaller Air Force like PAF. 

If F-16 is enough to give nightmares day and night to IAF, then F-16 has proved its worth.

Let JFT evolve into something bigger than what was envisioned by everyone including PAF itself. In the longer run, JFT is an ideal candidate for a "war of attrition" which PAF couldn't reliably sustain before the 1980's. In the 1990's, F-7 was that contender, but JFT is a major leap in all spheres of combat for PAF. 

But who holds the fear factor ? yup, F-16 !

Israeli-AF designs and plannings recently spiralled in a pit fall in Feb 2019. With all the technical assistance, mission planning and years of experience that Israeli AF brought over to Indian AF, the results were still not achieved. Israelis are smart, they know their strengths as well as their limitations. Had this not been the case, F-15Is would have been flying alongside MKIs in IAF airspace. And if that had happened then a few nations standing alongside Pakistan would also have jumped in with their inventory of aircraft. No country would jeopardise relations with major stakeholders and no country would want to get blamed for starting a conflict which turns into global turmoil eventually leading to a world war after the sides are drawn. In all the current global military engagements taking place in the world, you will not see two balanced opponents entering into a conflict. Such a narrative doesn't suit the stakeholders.

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## Basel

Trailer23 said:


> They (Sidewinder X) cost roughly around $600,000/-
> 
> You could get Two AIM-120 (AMRAAM) for that price.



You don't know why AIM-9X class AAM is very important for PAF?

Why India bought R-73, ASRAAM, MICA, Python AAMs???

They have their own huge importance in air warfare.


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## Trailer23

Basel said:


> You don't know why AIM-9X class AAM is very important for PAF?
> 
> Why India bought R-73, ASRAAM, MICA, Python AAMs???
> 
> They have their own huge importance in air warfare.


They also have a budget 8-10 times more than us so its pretty easy for them to go on a shopping spree. Another factor is if the US is willing to sell us those Sidewinders (even) for our current inventory.

Hell, if the Block 70/72 deal does go through - Raytheon may give us a groupon discount on the Aim-9X with the purchase of the AMRAAMS.


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## New World

Khafee said:


> Khafee Leaks : 2019
> -----> Orders placed :2020
> -----> First Demo flies : 2021~2022
> ------> Deliveries complete :2022~2023



Even if PAF get 150 F-16s, I would still recommend that PAF should get either J-10C or J-16..

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## Umar Nazir

New World said:


> Even if PAF get 150 F-16s, I would still recommend that PAF should get either J-10C or J-16..


PAF will persist with JF-17 and will only buy 5th Generation Fighter jet in 4 to 5 year time as we have limited budget so need to spend sensibly and in next 4 to 5 year fight jet without stealth technology will become sitting ducks


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## Trailer23

New World said:


> Even if PAF get 150 F-16s, I would still recommend that PAF should get either J-10C or J-16..


150...F-16's is a pipe dream so lets leave it at that & come down to reality. Getting our inventory upto 100 F-16 altogether.

(If) the F-16's aren't available to us, we should seriously consider the export variant of the J-10's because while the the JF-17 Block III & B-variant are coming in, its good to something heavy duty too. I'm not a fan of the J-11's or J-16's.


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## Dil Pakistan

Khafee said:


> May Allah give you a long healthy and wealthy life.



*Khafee!* you have built such high hopes for everyone that if (God for bid) it doesn't happen, we ALL will combine to send you to the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.

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## Maxpane

Dil Pakistan said:


> *Khafee!* you have built such high hopes for everyone that if (God for bid) it doesn't happen, we ALL will combine to send you to the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.

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## Trailer23

Dil Pakistan said:


> *Khafee!* you have built such high hopes for everyone that if (God for bid) it doesn't happen, we ALL will combine to send you to the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.


Why all the way to Turkey...?
Look, if you want to inflict pain on someone - just send him to Mena Bazaar in Bur Dubai. Shear Torture...

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## Dil Pakistan

Trailer23 said:


> Why all the way to Turkey...?
> Look, if you want to inflict pain on someone - just send him to Mena Bazaar in Bur Dubai. Shear Torture...



Istanbul Saudi Consulate is famous for this purpose (Hint: Khashogi).

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Dil Pakistan said:


> *Khafee!* you have built such high hopes for everyone that if (God for bid) it doesn't happen, we ALL will combine to send you to the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.

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## Trailer23

Dil Pakistan said:


> Istanbul Saudi Consulate is famous for this purpose (Hint: Khashogi).


I know bro, but trust me - the place I mentioned is full of Bindu's.

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## Khafee

Dil Pakistan said:


> *Khafee!* you have built such high hopes for everyone that if (God for bid) it doesn't happen, we ALL will combine to send you to the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No pressure

*F16V*

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## batmannow

Trailer23 said:


> @batmannow
> Times change. Leaders change. Politics change.
> 
> Going into a venture with the Chinese was a good move because we required to have an in-house jet that we could call our own.
> 
> You're so hell bent on the Russian Su-35's...fine. When the UN Security Council is in session in regard to Kashmir..., we'll find out how much your Russian friends would be willing to do business with Pakistan. I bet my (retro) Air Jordan IV that they'll VETO.
> 
> Even if I were to buy your rhetoric about buying the Sukhoi's...it would suit India just well. Make us spend Millions on Russian equipment & then India would dictate of what needs to be done.
> 
> Now coming to the United States... Seriously, we've seen what its like to be on the wrong side of a Super Power like the US. Sure, you have next Super Power in the form of China next to you, but they aren't handing out J-10's, Destroyers & Aircraft Carriers like candy in our direction either.
> 
> Dealing with the US is not just about Defense Contracts and Aid. There is (always) a bigger picture in play.
> 
> Finally, I admire Shahid Latif as much as the next guy. The man was one of the first to go to the US to get trained on the F-16 & was also the first to land it on our soil. However, his statements have changed in regards to the events of 27th Feb. On a couple of occasions he spoke of the F-16 going up against the MiG-21.
> 
> The might of the F-16 in the PAF inventory has proven over & over - as Wg Cdr. Noman Ali Khan & Sqn Ldr. Hasan Siddiqui are living proof.


Selling weapons and hvimg a diffeent POV in UNSC is like matching apple to oranges?
It's different thn what ur little mind can digest?
Pak needs no support from no one, all it wants is to let world recgonize pakistan right to defend kashmiris, cause we know if 70 years passed tht dam organization can't do anything about kashmir then how come now?
So u lack basic understanding how the situation is?
And as u said yes time has changed and we hve to move on from tht dam F16S era which is just there cause a few of our generals and thier dam families will be benefiting from tht, we need to create better understanding and cooperation among the powerfull nations close to us?
If we can produce, JFT with China thn I think Russia has much more high tech waiting for us to explore in comming future, I'm not hell bent, in SU35 sell to pakistan its up to the think tank of PAK military establishment, to decide among MIG31, SU35, or SU 57 or something else which can serve us comming 25 years and has the potential for future up grades and all tht means thanks and good bye to F16S for ever and with tht the hidden kickbacks and hidden immigration of some top level military officials and thier dam families in search of dam dollors in usa?????


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## CHI RULES

batmannow said:


> Selling weapons and hvimg a diffeent POV in UNSC is like matching apple to oranges?
> It's different thn what ur little mind can digest?
> Pak needs no support from no one, all it wants is to let world recgonize pakistan right to defend kashmiris, cause we know if 70 years passed tht dam organization can't do anything about kashmir then how come now?
> So u lack basic understanding how the situation is?
> And as u said yes time has changed and we hve to move on from tht dam F16S era which is just there cause a few of our generals and thier dam families will be benefiting from tht, we need to create better understanding and cooperation among the powerfull nations close to us?
> If we can produce, JFT with China thn I think Russia has much more high tech waiting for us to explore in comming future, I'm not hell bent, in SU35 sell to pakistan its up to the think tank of PAK military establishment, to decide among MIG31, SU35, or SU 57 or something else which can serve us comming 25 years and has the potential for future up grades and all tht means thanks and good bye to F16S for ever and with tht the hidden kickbacks and hidden immigration of some top level military officials and thier dam families in search of dam dollors in usa?????



Sir,
As per previous mails it is certain that perhaps you have some military experience however it is every person his own view what should be done or not. Only on one to two points require some clarification.
1- After introduction of fifth gen fighter especially by India within next decade what shall be role of 4-4.5 th gen jets. Further Pak F16s if allowed by USA, after V upgrade may be equivalent to above mentioned jets if not better. Turkey is also stepping in soon with own upgrade package like V upgrades.

2- Nearly every defense deal in the world carries some sort of favor or corruption in open words. further defense deals especially with USA are carried out by joint civil and military officials so one should suspect whole bunch of people from PM to ministry of finance and mainly ministry of defense instead of only few serving High ranking PAF/Military professionals. 

3- What are your views about practical capabilities of Russian stuff during past conflicts, as many think it is better to get second hand tech from USA/EU than getting down graded tech of Russia.


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## batmannow

CHI RULES said:


> Sir,
> As per previous mails it is certain that perhaps you have some military experience however it is every person his own view what should be done or not. Only on one to two points require some clarification.
> 1- After introduction of fifth gen fighter especially by India within next decade what shall be role of 4-4.5 th gen jets. Further Pak F16s if allowed by USA, after V upgrade may be equivalent to above mentioned jets if not better. Turkey is also stepping in soon with own upgrade package like V upgrades.
> 
> 2- Nearly every defense deal in the world carries some sort of favor or corruption in open words. further defense deals especially with USA are carried out by joint civil and military officials so one should suspect whole bunch of people from PM to ministry of finance and mainly ministry of defense instead of only few serving High ranking PAF/Military professionals.
> 
> 3- What are your views about practical capabilities of Russian stuff during past conflicts, as many think it is better to get second hand tech from USA/EU than getting down graded tech of Russia.


All of ur queries are bassed on if usa allow pak to v grade F16S?
No thy won't, and with current situation even not to turkey thn why to waste time on tht dead meat?
No matter what usa or west does, Russia will keep matching them up in high tech air power?
And thts the point which we should be thinking off, cause with F16S we hve enough of experience of american tech, if we Russia, China, turkey can form a joint research organization I'm sure, we can develop a real good match to anything west is planing?
As for 5th gem tech, Russia is the only country which has the potential to come up with a darring answer, and SU57 is truly a 5fth gen fighter instead of rafaels or gripen which r 4.5 gen fighters?
Thy hve the potential to be upgraded near to 5th gen but the so does SU35, and MIG 31 or MIG 41s as for my qualifications, I had short carrier in armed forces and Thts it, now I'm more into open intell gathering and sharing bizz these days?
And pls stop speculations tht any Arab country will give u thier 2nd hand, used fighter without the permission of thier masters in Washington?

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## Trailer23

batmannow said:


> I'm not hell bent, in SU35 sell to pakistan its up to the think tank of PAK military establishment, to decide among MIG31, SU35, or SU 57


Yeah, i'm pretty sure that they aren't gonna go with the Russians. We're not interested in a Nation which is in the Indian Camp. So good luck selling your narrative...



batmannow said:


> It's different thn what ur little mind can digest?


Funny, I was thinking the exact same 'bout you.

Here, if you want take a screenshot - now's your chance.

1. The Block 70/72 may come and/or may not come*.
2. One way or another we will get F-16's (used if it comes down to it).
3. We *will NOT* be getting any MiG's or Sukhoi's.

One doesn't need to have a Military background and/or connections in the Military to figure that out.

* But if they do come, f#*k the Indians - you're the first one i'm gonna hunt down on PDF.

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## CHI RULES

batmannow said:


> All of ur queries are bassed on if usa allow pak to v grade F16S?
> No thy won't, and with current situation even not to turkey thn why to waste time on tht dead meat?
> No matter what usa or west does, Russia will keep matching them up in high tech air power?
> And thts the point which we should be thinking off, cause with F16S we hve enough of experience of american tech, if we Russia, China, turkey can form a joint research organization I'm sure, we can develop a real good match to anything west is planing?
> As for 5th gem tech, Russia is the only country which has the potential to come up with a darring answer, and SU57 is truly a 5fth gen fighter instead of rafaels or gripen which r 4.5 gen fighters?
> Thy hve the potential to be upgraded near to 5th gen but the so does SU35, and MIG 31 or MIG 41s as for my qualifications, I had short carrier in armed forces and Thts it, now I'm more into open intell gathering and sharing bizz these days?



Thks but one can only hope that one day Pak, Russia and China make along with Turkey any suggested research group, so far Pak ahs got nothing hi tech from Russia. The two main problems are Indian still enjoy leverage through heavy defense pacts with Russia, other is finances issue as unlike China or USA, Russians cannot supply defense equipment on credit basis.

On other hand your opinion is still awaited regarding corruption in defense deals.


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## Aamir Hussain

No Russkie birds are going to come our way. Grow up guys, Russia needs dollars and India is it biggest arms buyers, that is a fact no one can deny. They cant afford to offend India. So no birds are coming our way. 

The only option now available in the given circumstances are the Chinese J10's or used F16's if situation get better between PAK n USA

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## Dil Pakistan

Aamir Hussain said:


> No Russkie birds are going to come our way. Grow up guys, Russia needs dollars and India is it biggest arms buyers, that is a fact no one can deny. They cant afford to offend India. So no birds are coming our way.
> 
> The only option now available in the given circumstances are the Chinese J10's or used F16's if situation get better between PAK n USA



India's economy is faltering - and very fast.

What money they have, they are spending on promoting the Hindutva ideology rather than economy. It will be obvious very soon.


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## Stealth

Aamir Hussain said:


> No Russkie birds are going to come our way. Grow up guys, Russia needs dollars and India is it biggest arms buyers, that is a fact no one can deny. They cant afford to offend India. So no birds are coming our way.
> 
> The only option now available in the given circumstances are the Chinese J10's or used F16's if situation get better between PAK n USA



Russians doesn't have too much clients for their mil equipment technically. They will stand with India for just one reason $$$. PAF never ever hands on Sukois atleast for next 100 years lol

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## MIG21DOWN

Hi i dont mean to be disrespectful or offend you Khafee but can anyone tell me how reliable of a source he is? Has he broken news in the past that turned out to be true? Im a new user on this forum so i dont know the credibility of all posters.

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## Flight of falcon

By the way Indians are refusing to buy any more Su30.....I am sure it’s just a coincidence that this news come out after Feb 28 encounter.

And people want us to buy the same garbage .....

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ot-actually-want-more-su-30mki-fighters-73456

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## Vortex

Dil Pakistan said:


> *Khafee!* you have built such high hopes for everyone that if (God for bid) it doesn't happen, we ALL will combine to send you to the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.




No no even if F16 dont come, at least @Khafee leaks should have wet dhotis of some bipin and abhinandan...

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## Pakistansdefender

@Khafee 
No news dude. Are you still sure? 
I think it would not prove to be another rumor ?

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## Dil Pakistan

Vortex said:


> No no even if F16 dont come, at least @Khafee leaks should have wet dhotis of some bipin and abhinandan...



Yes! this is the minimum requirement

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## New World

Umar Nazir said:


> PAF will persist with JF-17 and will only buy 5th Generation Fighter jet in 4 to 5 year time as we have limited budget so need to spend sensibly and in next 4 to 5 year fight jet without stealth technology will become sitting ducks



Sir, PAF need another 4++ gen fighter jet in the category of medium to heavy weight. 




Trailer23 said:


> 150...F-16's is a pipe dream so lets leave it at that & come down to reality. Getting our inventory upto 100 F-16 altogether.
> (If) the F-16's aren't available to us, we should seriously consider the export variant of the J-10's because while the the JF-17 Block III & B-variant are coming in, its good to something heavy duty too. I'm not a fan of the J-11's or J-16's.



Sir, you misunderstood my comment.


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## batmannow

CHI RULES said:


> Thks but one can only hope that one day Pak, Russia and China make along with Turkey any suggested research group, so far Pak ahs got nothing hi tech from Russia. The two main problems are Indian still enjoy leverage through heavy defense pacts with Russia, other is finances issue as unlike China or USA, Russians cannot supply defense equipment on credit basis.
> 
> On other hand your opinion is still awaited regarding corruption in defense deals.


Do u know how good Russian hellos r and, how about the JFT Russian made engines?
I gss u better check our deals with Russia in recent past?



Stealth said:


> Russians doesn't have too much clients for their mil equipment technically. They will stand with India for just one reason $$$. PAF never ever hands on Sukois atleast for next 100 years lol


Sorry to burst ur bubble which al filled by some stupid Indian gas?
If Russia was in tht much love with India then u couldn't saw ur JFT flyin with Russian engines?
U think, thy asked any permissions from India?
And specilly when India made it clear tht thy won't be taking any more Russian fighter jet into thier inventory wht u expect Russia ill like all tht, the answer is no as, India has its rights to decide what's best for them, then Russia has bigger interests then of India which isn't a regional power yet?
Then u hve Pakistan, the guardian of the Golden route CEPEC Russia would be more secure with pak in future along side with China, Iran. Turkey and sirya, Iraq Pakistan Thts wht is the new equation is, so my friend stop exploring Indian prapoganda into to PDF?
If anyone thinks tht RD 93 tht Russian engine deal wasn't anything then thy should jump from a 20 story building?
And do u know, Russia knew what it ill create when thy gave those dam engines to pak?



Trailer23 said:


> Yeah, i'm pretty sure that they aren't gonna go with the Russians. We're not interested in a Nation which is in the Indian Camp. So good luck selling your narrative...
> 
> 
> Funny, I was thinking the exact same 'bout you.
> 
> Here, if you want take a screenshot - now's your chance.
> 
> 1. The Block 70/72 may come and/or may not come*.
> 2. One way or another we will get F-16's (used if it comes down to it).
> 3. We *will NOT* be getting any MiG's or Sukhoi's.
> 
> One doesn't need to have a Military background and/or connections in the Military to figure that out.
> 
> * But if they do come, f#*k the Indians - you're the first one i'm gonna hunt down on PDF.


There u go with ur non understanding of world politics?
If Russia was so die hard friend of India would thy be giving, pak RD 93 on which u r dancing on ur thunders?????
U evn don't use common sense?

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## Stealth

batmannow said:


> Do u know how good Russian hellos r and, how about the JFT Russian made engines?
> I gss u better check our deals with Russia in recent past?
> 
> 
> Sorry to burst ur bubble which al filled by some stupid Indian gas?
> If Russia was in tht much love with India then u couldn't saw ur JFT flyin with Russian engines?
> U think, thy asked any permissions from India?
> And specilly when India made it clear tht thy won't be taking any more Russian fighter jet into thier inventory wht u expect Russia ill like all tht, the answer is no as, India has its rights to decide what's best for them, then Russia has bigger interests then of India which isn't a regional power yet?
> Then u hve Pakistan, the guardian of the Golden route CEPEC Russia would be more secure with pak in future along side with China, Iran. Turkey and sirya, Iraq Pakistan Thts wht is the new equation is, so my friend stop exploring Indian prapoganda into to PDF?
> If anyone thinks tht RD 93 tht Russian engine deal wasn't anything then thy should jump from a 20 story building?
> And do u know, Russia knew what it ill create when thy gave those dam engines to pak?
> 
> 
> There u go with ur non understanding of world politics?
> If Russia was so die hard friend of India would thy be giving, pak RD 93 on which u r dancing on ur thunders?????
> U evn don't use common sense?


 So you’re telling everyone is that no one expect u know about the regional and world politics lol no o do business with 10B tri armed forces budget lol

U dunno shit about anything lol Russian can’t stop supply of RD-93 because that engine was licensed with Chinese not with Pakistan. Chinese use that engine in other aircrafts and mostly in under developed aircrafts did u know that? Lol

India spends more than our entire mil budget just on the maintaince of thr hardware which they spend on Russians to get stuff. Russians despite of close ally with China never ditched India when China v India at any int forum. In which world u r living???

No one give a damn about human rights and quite frankly Kashmir issue. Every country has its own interest and as far as Russia, they didn’t get any advantage while siding with Pakistan at this stage.

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## Khafee

Pakistansdefender said:


> @Khafee
> No news dude. Are you still sure?
> I think it would not prove to be another rumor ?


IA no rumor, there is a lot at play here - lobbying, approvals, finance etc. So be patient.....

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## Trailer23

batmannow said:


> There u go with ur non understanding of world politics?
> If Russia was so die hard friend of India would thy be giving, pak RD 93 on which u r dancing on ur thunders?????
> U evn don't use common sense?


Oh my God..., I better run to all the Mods & tell them to shut down PDF 'cause apparently only you have understanding of World Politics, Defense and the rate for Hookers in Thailand - while the rest of us are watching the Disney Channel...

The RD93 Engine was a deal done through China. China is the middleman & (now) we possibly won't need those Russian Engines as China has its own.

Seems like you're the one dancing on (just) the engines and that its a corridor for a possible...mutual understanding between us & the Russians. Sure, we'd like to have good relations with them because they too are a Super Power. But our relations with them will be limited because of the US Relations. Like it or not, we've had better relations with the US - and prior to 9/11 - they did give us Aid.

Trade, Energy, Education etc may be the sectors to start off with the Russians because if they choose to back out - no harm done. But Defense is a Big 'NO'.

But you're welcome to constantly annoy us with your delusion. I suppose there might be a person or who might find you mildly amusing...to say the least.

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## GriffinsRule

Stealth said:


> Russians doesn't have too much clients for their mil equipment technically. They will stand with India for just one reason $$$. PAF never ever hands on Sukois atleast for next 100 years lol


Pakistan might yet get it's hand Su-30s when an IAF pilot lands it in Pakistan

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## Aamir Hussain

Dil Pakistan said:


> India's economy is faltering - and very fast.
> 
> What money they have, they are spending on promoting the Hindutva ideology rather than economy. It will be obvious very soon.


Buddy I for one would not bank on your assessment of decline of Indian economy. They might be going through a slowdown but so is China. That does not mean that China is going down too, any time soon. Let us not underestimate them or live in a fools paradise just for the sake's of hammering on a flawed assessment of getting Russian SU's. It ain't happening.... no, nada, nayet!!!

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## ziaulislam

Dil Pakistan said:


> India's economy is faltering - and very fast.
> 
> What money they have, they are spending on promoting the Hindutva ideology rather than economy. It will be obvious very soon.


they doing much much better than us
they have never messed with fundamentals(like printing notes)
poor might become poorer and rich might become richer but the govt will still be wealthy, as long as they can put something for public consumption all will be great..that something is hindu nationalism..so poor and middle class both can be happy

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## batmannow

https://m.hindustantimes.com/world/...at-jet-deal/story-aJTYWpVH5Befkgoh0YDTbJ.html

*Pakistan and Russia discussing Su-35 combat jet deal*


*Failing fifth-generation fighter project: Russia may punish India with Pak help

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/35...project-russia-may-punish-india-with-pak-help*




*Pakistan eying Sukhoi-35 fighter planes from Russia: Report
https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...s-from-russia-report/articleshow/49034878.cms

The Mi-35M chopper deal was signed during the visit of army chief General Raheel Sharif to Russia in June when he met top defence officials.
By PTI | Updated: Sep 20, 2015, 06.29 PM IST





The Mi-35M chopper deal was signed during the visit of army chief General Raheel Sharif to Russia in June when he met top defence officials. (Representative image)
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is negotiating with Russia on acquiring an unspecified number of Su-35 'Flanker-E' multi-role fighter aircraft in potentially the largest military deal between the two Cold War-era adversaries, according to a leading defence weekly.

Pakistan Air Force has discussed buying Sukhoi-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, IHS Jane's quoted a seniorPakistani governmentofficial as saying.

The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Pakistan.

While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory".

The PAF currently flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.

Islamabad is eager to improve its ties with Moscow to diversify its military options in the event of any stalemate in ties with Washington, Pakistani media reported.

The Mi-35M chopper deal was signed during the visit of army chief General Raheel Sharif to Russia in June when he met top defence officials.

The two countries last year signed a military cooperation agreement to deepen their defence ties and vowed to translate their relationship in "tangible" terms during Russian Defence MinisterSergei Shoigu's visit to Islamabad. Shoigu was the first Russian defence minister to visit Pakistan in 45 years.
*
This is going to be tough for India which is still struggling to equip its airforce
- Vimal Pant

Tht the reality is, and it ill hurt many croupt families living in America because thier parents sold pakistan for thier dam personal interests, and made pakistan slave to America, for its airforce because just of dam decade fighter jet?
Which can't evn fly during a war like kargil? Bt these stupid a d croupt families and thier, slave minded kids still can't see, how much loss, and humiliations pak has to suffer because of thier stupid and croupt parents?
There should be a huge inquiry about who were the ppls, decided after 2nd time to buy more F16S and now where these ppls r gone or living with thier families, thy all should be brought back and should be hanged in public as an example for comming future??? Lolzz


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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> IA no rumor, there is a lot at play here - lobbying, approvals, finance etc. So be patient.....


Boss, if you don't mind, if ALL this yet to be concluded, things like Lobbying, Approvals and Finance etc, then what make you say this with absolute certainty?


Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


I mean, by what you said yesterday, almost everything that is required to be settled to finalize an arms procurement deal is still at play and NOT finalized. 

Have the members been discussing something presented as confirmed news but which was in fact only a possibility (no matter how likely or remote it was)? 


I hope you wont mind my blunt question.

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## Khafee

Arsalan said:


> Boss, if you don't mind, if ALL this yet to be concluded, things like Lobbying, Approvals and Finance etc, then what make you say this with absolute certainty?
> 
> I mean, by what you said yesterday, almost everything that is required to be settled to finalize an arms procurement deal is still at play and NOT finalized.
> 
> Have the members been discussing something presented as confirmed news but which was in fact only a possibility (no matter how likely or remote it was)?
> 
> 
> I hope you wont mind my blunt question.


Paperwork

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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> Paperwork


Meaning lobbying is done already and the congress will be in favor of such a deal, the finance have been arranged already and all concerned parties like MoD, LM, Congress etc have given approval already? 
But,
All this is done as far as understanding goes. They are now only making it legal by finalizing the paperwork?

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## Khafee

Arsalan said:


> Meaning lobbying is done already and the congress will be in favor of such a deal, the finance have been arranged already and all concerned parties like MoD, LM, Congress etc have given approval already?
> But,
> All this is done as far as understanding goes. They are now only making it legal by finalizing the paperwork?


Yes
Btw DoD not MoD, and lobbying is never over till the Vipers land.

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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> Yes
> Btw DoD not MoD, and lobbying is never over till the Vipers land.


Yeah DoD, sorry. 
Well then this is good news if true. But again, with hope that you wont mind this blunt question, don't you think that when finance of such a massive deal was being arranged and when lobbying on such massive scale was being done, there would have been more news regarding this compared to a thread on a defence forum? Remember that any lobbying being done to get F16s to Pakistan approved is in direct conflict and competition with India. I am not sure who it all went on so quietly that noticed and how this was not mentioned anywhere but on this thread. This all sound like us (defence.pk) getting way more lucky than we are.

Anyway, do you think there will be any official statement on this anytime soon or do you think people will only know about this ONLY when the planes have landed here in Pakistan (or will it still be kept secret and we will only have another thread announcing the planes are here already?)

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## Khafee

Arsalan said:


> Yeah DoD, sorry.
> Well then this is good news if true. But again, with hope that you wont mind this blunt question, don't you think that when finance of such a massive deal was being arranged and when lobbying on such massive scale was being done, there would have been more news regarding this compared to a thread on a defence forum? Remember that any lobbying being done to get F16s to Pakistan approved is in direct conflict and competition with India. I am not sure who it all went on so quietly that noticed and how this was not mentioned anywhere but on this thread. This all sound like us (defence.pk) getting way more lucky than we are.
> 
> Anyway, do you think there will be any official statement on this anytime soon or do you think people will only know about this ONLY when the planes have landed here in Pakistan (or will it still be kept secret and we will only have another thread announcing the planes are here already?)



Billion US$s deal do not happen overnight, there will be a public statement.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Khafee said:


> Billion US$s deal do not happen overnight, there will be a public statement.


So you told me we are getting block 61s. So dont u think title needs to be changed


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## batmannow

Arsalan said:


> Meaning lobbying is done already and the congress will be in favor of such a deal, the finance have been arranged already and all concerned parties like MoD, LM, Congress etc have given approval already?
> But,
> All this is done as far as understanding goes. They are now only making it legal by finalizing the paperwork?


Nothing like Tht and there is no such conformation of any sorts, it's all been a agenda news of some croupt ministry of defence officials who have tagged Pakistans defence in the hands of a brutal captaislt regime, just because thy and thier families can get immigrant status and thus hve a chance to live in USA?
Cause Thts what happned before and it ill keep happening again and again?
Tht in a war u can't fly the dam, fighter jet which u paid for?
Karagill is a best example of tht? So all tht earsay is jst there to make up the mind of genral public and Thts all?
Time has come for NAB to chcek the past deals and investigate who made wht of which deal in case of F16S?
And countries like pakistan doesn't get top military hard ware because thy r paying for tht, learn from past even if u hve paid thy can deny u, then will give u back ur money in form of wheat????? 
We get top gadgets when countries like USA needed us in thier strategical moves? 
So all of ur over educated theories all r Jst opposite what we have experienced in the past? 
Pakistan will get a Russian jet, there r far batter can clear chances of tht, once President putin visits Islamabad, announcement will rock the brains and hearts of Yankee loving crowd? 
Pak has better, and far more open chances with Russia and China who can support in any war like situation emerging fast?
And before deleting my post I should chcek the posts in which I been mentioned in a abusive manner, while I reserve my right to hit back on those stupids, don't take sides


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## Arsalan

Khafee said:


> Billion US$s deal do not happen overnight, there will be a public statement.


Obviously sir, the don't happen over night. That is why i am surprised that when all that lobbying was being done and the finance was being arranged, there was no noise about it at all. That is the usual part really.



batmannow said:


> Nothing like Tht and there is no such conformation of any sorts, it's all been a agenda news of some croupt ministry of defence officials who have tagged Pakistans defence in the hands of a brutal captaislt regime, just because thy and thier families can get immigrant status and thus hve a chance to live in USA?
> Cause Thts what happned before and it ill keep happening again and again?
> Tht in a war u can't fly the dam, fighter jet which u paid for?
> Karagill is a best example of tht? So all tht earsay is jst there to make up the mind of genral public and Thts all?
> Time has come for NAB to chcek the past deals and investigate who made wht of which deal in case of F16S?
> And countries like pakistan doesn't get top military hard ware because thy r paying for tht, learn from past even if u hve paid thy can deny u, then will give u back ur money in form of wheat?????
> We get top gadgets when countries like USA needed us in thier strategical moves?
> So all of ur over educated theories all r Jst opposite what we have experienced in the past?
> Pakistan will get a Russian jet, there r far batter can clear chances of tht, once President putin visits Islamabad, announcement will rock the brains and hearts of Yankee loving crowd?
> Pak has better, and far more open chances with Russia and China who can support in any war like situation emerging fast?
> And before deleting my post I should chcek the posts in which I been mentioned in a abusive manner, while I reserve my right to hit back on those stupids, don't take sides


The post you quoted was only my second post on this 2211 post long thread. Not sure what made you say i am taking SIDES here!! 
Any post that insulted you or abused you, please do not QUOTE reply that post, please do not use same bad language. Report that post and let the moderators take care of it. Thank you.

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## Talon

Stealth said:


> PS: These images not designed by me "Before you point out anyone else, makesure you yourself first know whether the tagged guy really editted that image or not"
> 
> Now first and important, BSX is not owned by me from past 3 years and also there are more than 15 member of team including 7 designers editting BSX posts.... lol
> 
> Thanks for your "don't wanna start a debate" post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chill lol
> 
> Hope you knw that media is always sux esp when it comes to reporting something related to defence/military. In today's world, social media pages and posts having more impact and accessible to the international audience than our local media. So whenever we have posted something which not actually represents us in real, it go against us in a longer run.
> 
> Anway, you've taken my post from a negative perspective. I completely agreed that we don't have much footages and a good quality images of our armed forces and that is the reason we are far behind in presenting our military good power projection. I gone through all these stages decade ago almost. I have direct relations and even debate/communication with higher ups including chief(s) of the Pakistan armed forces including DG(s) and those who have power to implement (A/V directors in ISPR) and request them to bring something like American kinda stuff (coverage) like they do for their armed forces.
> 
> Trust me they have lot of high quality stuff including videos (captured from latest 4K) and images. Many of them I saw my self. Brilliantly captured esp awesome ariel footages of air force and gunships of PA but they're not published anywhere for some reason. I have seen IL78 footage while refueling PAF but again still I haven't seen that footage in any of the song or available metarial so there are some reasons personally I knew few but still I didn't buy those excuses anyway.
> 
> Thanks and keep continue with your work!
> 
> 
> 
> Bachay nay msg in a negative way lya hey lol  acha may bhuda hoon aur tu 13 saal ka kaka haina lol anyway there is a difference ....The video begins with the PAF logo I guess aren't a general F16 promo video specifically that is why i have point out that. Secondly I didn't read all of his posts (in the same thread) so I didn't know the full debate/context. Just gotta hind of PAF promo context so within the spectrum of that, I responded.
> 
> hoon qoute kita tenu chitar lasaan may lol


For most people you are the face of BSX because you are usually doing all the postings and not everyone knows all the (supposed) 15 members of your page.Any member/partner of a group is responsible for acts of his fellow members/partners so you are liable as much as they are (if any).

Mimicking my quote shows how much mature you are and how much ability you have to take up criticism.

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## batmannow

Arsalan said:


> Obviously sir, the don't happen over night. That is why i am surprised that when all that lobbying was being done and the finance was being arranged, there was no noise about it at all. That is the usual part really.
> 
> 
> The post you quoted was only my second post on this 2211 post long thread. Not sure what made you say i am taking SIDES here!!
> Any post that insulted you or abused you, please do not QUOTE reply that post, please do not use same bad language. Report that post and let the moderators take care of it. Thank you.


Mods take wht thy like, and thy r biased Thts not a secret so, if I been provoked then I I'll hit back, and it wasn't u who, I'm referring too, bt it was a nonsenesical move who ever deleted my post from on now on wards Im watching all of u, on this thread and I ll make sure everyone gets treated same way!
Thanks and good day

Bring credible sources which kicked this thread or stop this nonsense


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## GriffinsRule

My only objection to this news is that Congress can not be onboard yet, as being portrayed here, as there has been no submission by the state dept for them to approve or reject. So the lobbying might be in the works in the background, as that is an ever going process, until Congress okays the sale we are not going to be even half way there.


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## Danishwer

batmannow said:


> Nothing like Tht and there is no such conformation of any sorts, it's all been a agenda news of some croupt ministry of defence officials who have tagged Pakistans defence in the hands of a brutal captaislt regime, just because thy and thier families can get immigrant status and thus hve a chance to live in USA?
> Cause Thts what happned before and it ill keep happening again and again?
> Tht in a war u can't fly the dam, fighter jet which u paid for?
> Karagill is a best example of tht? So all tht earsay is jst there to make up the mind of genral public and Thts all?
> Time has come for NAB to chcek the past deals and investigate who made wht of which deal in case of F16S?
> And countries like pakistan doesn't get top military hard ware because thy r paying for tht, learn from past even if u hve paid thy can deny u, then will give u back ur money in form of wheat?????
> We get top gadgets when countries like USA needed us in thier strategical moves?
> So all of ur over educated theories all r Jst opposite what we have experienced in the past?
> Pakistan will get a Russian jet, there r far batter can clear chances of tht, once President putin visits Islamabad, announcement will rock the brains and hearts of Yankee loving crowd?
> Pak has better, and far more open chances with Russia and China who can support in any war like situation emerging fast?
> And before deleting my post I should chcek the posts in which I been mentioned in a abusive manner, while I reserve my right to hit back on those stupids, don't take sides



IMO Russian Jets won't possible, although we might be able to get some choppers from Russians.


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## Code_Geass

Has all yhe mi 35 arrived in pakistan from Russia??


Danishwer said:


> IMO Russian Jets won't possible, although we might be able to get some choppers from Russians.


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## batmannow

Danishwer said:


> IMO Russian Jets won't possible, although we might be able to get some choppers from Russians.


Why it isn't posible?? Care to explain while more thn 150 thunders flying with Russian made engine RD93?



Code_Geass said:


> Has all yhe mi 35 arrived in pakistan from Russia??


A long time ago Google it, u I'll know??

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## My-Analogous

aliyusuf said:


> This is how I see the cost for the whole deal could turn out to be ...
> View attachment 571999
> 
> 
> This is a huge cost even if spread out over several years.


All 96 will be upgraded @ cost of 1.2 billion dollar and that is almost 12.5m per plane. Rest is amount is for new planes. We can say around some where near to 3 to 4 billion in total for 24 new and 20 old plane. so total will be around 4 to 5 billion @Khafee

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## Bindas

US congress, Will never approve this deal.


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## Dil Pakistan

Bindas said:


> US congress, Will never approve this deal.



OK - you have pooped in the open as usual. Get lost now.

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## aliyusuf

Bindas said:


> US congress, Will never approve this deal.


Like any one here gives even a thought or cares about your unsolicited pov. Kindly keep your interference to zero if possible. This is not your forum nor your topic. Kindly butt-out lest you want to be labelled as a "besharam bin bulaya mehman".

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## mingle

Bindas said:


> US congress, Will never approve this deal.


Money is money its business end of the day.

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## Trailer23

Bindas said:


> US congress, Will never approve this deal.


Hope you're 'round when Congress approve this deal...

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Yes
> Btw DoD not MoD, and lobbying is never over till the Vipers land.


We need to build our case against Modi threat which is real to Pak for release of further sensitive tech from the US.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mingle said:


> We need to build our case against Modi threat which is real to Pak for release of further sensitive tech from the US.


Demons of Hindutuva are coming out at a fast rate...

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## mingle

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Demons of Hindutuva are coming out at a fast rate...


They were hidden beacuse world was paying attention towards Taliban AQ stuff and ignor these Indiots now they are on the radar You will see gradually they will be completely pants down naked in front of whole world.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

mingle said:


> They were hidden beacuse world was paying attention towards Taliban AQ stuff and ignor these Indiots now they are on the radar You will see gradually they will be completely pants down naked in front of whole world.


A known enemy is better than an unknown friend....

_A Dana-dar Dushman is better than a Na-Dan Dost..._

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## mingle

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> A known enemy is better than an unknown friend....
> 
> _A Dana-dar Dushman is better than a Na-Dan Dost..._


Agree but now pak Govt and ppl diagnosed rightly where is the problem. Better late than never

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Inchi-ans have been scared to their core since Imran Khan's US visit

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## ARMalik

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Demons of Hindutuva are coming out at a fast rate...



Nothing in this World is a coincidence. French Revolution, Russian Revolutions, Hitler, and many before them were all staged and instigated by Powerful Shadowy Forces that have controlled this planet for thousands of years. These fascist Hindus are nothing more than mere pieces on a much bigger chess board.

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## PakShaheen79

Bhaiyo kuch nahi ho raha ... jaag jao. Kisi American official ne koi reference de dia ho ga during some meeting and yahan awam pagal ho gai hai.

Time to grow up!

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## Pakhtoon yum

@Khafee, I'm carious was anything let go by Pakistan for this sudden change of events? The new weapons, bright smiles and the economic clubthingy suddenly speaking favorably. Something must have been put on the table and dare I say that something was Indian occupied Kashmir?

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## jupiter2007

USA also removed 25 miles limit on Pakistani diplomats.

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## Armchair

The present diplomatic offensive against India is necessary even if nothing concrete comes out of it. 

Why?

Because when the war starts, we will have the morally high ground. We will be able to say, we tried, you didn't do anything, now we have to solve the problem ourselves. 

Right now Pak should be buying weapons and preparing the nation for a large scale war. We are wasting precious time. This time can cost us the war itself. It is beyond stupid to me.

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## Khafee

My-Analogous said:


> All 96 will be upgraded @ cost of 1.2 billion dollar and that is almost 12.5m per plane. Rest is amount is for new planes. We can say around some where near to 3 to 4 billion in total for 24 new and 20 old plane. so total will be around 4 to 5 billion @Khafee


Don't worry about money, its there.



Bindas said:


> US congress, Will never approve this deal.


Is there more, or are you done?

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## خره مينه لګته وي

Bindas said:


> US congress, Will never approve this deal.



Your Ppl also worshiped Trump on winning election - Confidence was much higher those days in indians - but he disappointed You lot...

If its true (F-16 Deal) as #Khafee is saying then I can guarantee you that Congress members will allow this deal to go smoothly..
You can spend money on buying Favors-Votes + do your poojas/Worshipping in india but it wont change anything in Congress regarding approval.... 

I can bet your nose on it...

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## mingle

خره مينه لګته وي said:


> Your Ppl also worshiped Trump on winning election - Confidence was much higher those days in indians - but he disappointed You lot...
> 
> If its true (F-16 Deal) as #Khafee is saying then I can guarantee you that Congress members will allow this deal to go smoothly..
> You can spend money on buying Favors-Votes + do your poojas/Worshipping in india but it wont change anything in Congress regarding approval....
> 
> I can bet your nose on it...


Indians are like those hens which do kur kur at one house but lay egg at other house they want America to be hard on Pak but when it comes business buying weapons they go France Russia and isreal.

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## Tumba

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



more than the fighter although no doubt F-16 Block 72 will have no match in south asia but its the BVR missile which will really change the dynamics.
Can you please let us know which BVR missiles will be coming with this purchase?

Aim-120 C7
or Aim-120 D
both of these will have no match in Pak India scenario though but Aim-120D is altogether difference beast than C series.

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## Av8er

Dil Pakistan said:


> OK - you have pooped in the open as usual. Get lost now.


That was him speaking, of course anything coming out of a Sanghi's mouth is a turd.

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## aliyusuf

@Khafee Sahib what implications does this
Volte-Face From Trump
mean for the upcoming Block-72 deal for PAF in your opinion?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This deal reminds me of the rumors when US aircraft carrier was promised to be arriving to help East Pakistan , and we all know it never came in 1971

While the optimism exist its commendable but , considering the circumstances the likely hood we will get anything in near future looks bleak

Imran Khan was well received our Army General was received with great honor much appreciated, the images and video from USA-Pakistan summit were friendly and showed a genuine desire for reset of ties I am sure it is 100% true intent


Pakistan-USA relation reset was indeed a major event for Pakistan





However,

Presently I trust our own *JF17 Block II* and *JF17 Block III* arrival timeline because it is promised to us from a reliable source (i.e local )
[Only because I don't see news about a formal Package]

If our *Super Cobra *fleet is released for usage then I will take this news a bit more seriously
For me release of Super Cobra fleet and *12 F16 C/D models* and release of old funding for Pakistan is a clear indication of resetting of Pakistan-USA ties

The proposed F16V of course can come later once deal is finalized (if indeed true)
*

Alot of stuff we need are in Proposal / Consideration Stages *

The proposed F16V program
The stuck Coalition Support Funding (between 2010-2019 ~ About 9 Billion for Pakistan Army)
The Stuck Super Cobra deliveries
The Blocked sales of F16 C/D models


It would be more logical for us to Expand "*K-A-M-R-A*" footprint to KPK/Baluchistan/Sindh

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## Silicon0000

Time to unwatched the thread .....


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## Ocelot

Khafee of the 20 billion barrel oil fame presents another wild fantasy just to get likes and +ive ratings: the F-16 block 70 is coming!!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well it may not be 100% not true , as USA-Pakistan , have worked closely on Afghanistan
and the discussion may be 100% Legitimate

A closure in Afghanistan is what USA wants and Pakistan also wants a conclusive end of Terrorism in Afghanistan

But apart from Positive feeling , we have not seen a concrete , package announcement under Trump Administration to , reverse the damage done to Pakistan-USA ties under Obama's term


Reimbursement of funds for Pakistan's Military , for Coalition Help and cost recovery of course is a pending issue totaling 9 Billion Dollars.

Super Cobra deal , of course 12-18 birds should be released for Pakistan , as the deal was done and paid for will help with enhancement of Pakistan's defensive capabilities
The F16V deal is no doubt if it is announced would be a massive news


This deal if it happens , would be equal to the 80's induction of Origional F16A/B blocks in Pakistan Airforce

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## Maxpane

Ocelot said:


> Khafee of the 20 billion barrel oil fame presents another wild fantasy just to get likes and +ive ratings: the F-16 block 70 is coming!!


sir if you hve problem then plz unwatch this thread. @Khafee is a professional why should he care about f##king +rating . He is not a child who asks for ratings and blq bla bla.

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## Nasr

Khafee said:


> Don't worry about money, its there.
> 
> 
> Is there more, or are you done?



What sort of time frame are we looking at here? Is this deal (if true at all) is a reality, then when would it transpire? And which Hub will be responsible for the upgrade to undertake PAF's Viper fleet? And if hypothetically this were all to take place, then PAF would have a Viper fleet of 100+ aircraft. It would become crucial for PAF to establish a full-fledged MRO facility for the Viper fleet, wouldn't you think?


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## Khafee

aliyusuf said:


> @Khafee Sahib what implications does this
> Volte-Face From Trump
> mean for the upcoming Block-72 deal for PAF in your opinion?


Will update in a day or two.

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Will update in a day or two.


@Khafee i hope it will be positive plz plz


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## Khafee

mingle said:


> @Khafee i hope it will be positive plz plz


Given how the forum mgmt bashes and bans Arabs, I'm seriously thinking of limiting what I reveal here, and will continue in a parallel world.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Khafee said:


> Given how the forum mgmt bashes and band Arabs, I'm seriously thinking of limiting what I reveal here, and will continue in a parallel world.


It’s the problem with the human beings in general!! According to the KITAP, they were created to be in haste!!! They get impatient when evil touches them, and they get miser when good touches them!!! They give more importance to one second of instant gratification over a century of little distant ease.....

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## Dil Pakistan

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> It’s the problem with the human beings in general!! According to the KITAP, they were created to be in haste!!! They get impatient when evil touches them, and they get miser when good touches them!!! They give more importance to one second of instant gratification over a century of little distant ease.....



Aashqi Sabr Talab hey - Aur tamanna betaab

Dil ka kia rung karoon khoon-i-jigar honay tak.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Dil Pakistan said:


> Aashqi Sabr Talab hey - Aur tamanna betaab
> 
> Dil ka kia rung karoon khoon-i-jigar honay tak.


An English translation would tons of good...

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## Flight of falcon

Khafee I studied Arabic till class six in Pakistan.... I am half Arab please do share news with me... I am a believer ...

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## Irfan Baloch

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> An English translation would tons of good...


its a poetic verse talking about the writer's impatience with his desire . knowing well that patience is a virtue

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## airmarshal

Flight of falcon said:


> By the way Indians are refusing to buy any more Su30.....I am sure it’s just a coincidence that this news come out after Feb 28 encounter.
> 
> And people want us to buy the same garbage .....
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ot-actually-want-more-su-30mki-fighters-73456



You think F-16 new AMRAAM, enhanced PW-100 engine and top of the line AESA radar is garbage. Wow!!! Thats quite a statement.

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## Khafee

airmarshal said:


> You think F-16 new AMRAAM, enhanced PW-100 engine and top of the line AESA radar is garbage. Wow!!! Thats quite a statement.


I think he is referring to the Su-30, PAF once upon a time, was seriously look at the Su-35.

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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> I think he is referring to the Su-30, PAF once upon a time, was seriously look at the Su-35.


sir any new info then plz tell me . am waiting

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## Flight of falcon

airmarshal said:


> You think F-16 new AMRAAM, enhanced PW-100 engine and top of the line AESA radar is garbage. Wow!!! Thats quite a statement.



Bro I was referring to Russian weapons and planes

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## mingle

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> An English translation would tons of good...


It's Mirza Ghalib s poetry

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## airmarshal

Even if the deal is there, its still in early stages, provided there is even a suggestion. 

India has a very strong lobby in Congress. F-16V is a brilliant aircraft. If this deal is in the works, there is a very big spoiler out there. If we know a hint of it, the spoiler would know a lot more. 

My point is this story might have been out already in a good or bad way. Remember how actively India sabotaged that 8 F-16 deal? I know then it was that idiot Nawaz Sharif but still dont under estimate your enemy.

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## mingle

airmarshal said:


> Even if the deal is there, its still in early stages, provided there is even a suggestion.
> 
> India has a very strong lobby in Congress. F-16V is a brilliant aircraft. If this deal is in the works, there is a very big spoiler out there. If we know a hint of it, the spoiler would know a lot more.
> 
> My point is this story might have been out already in a good or bad way. Remember how actively India sabotaged that 8 F-16 deal? I know then it was that idiot Nawaz Sharif but still dont under estimate your enemy.


It was Dar that gave her blow refusing to pay otherwise no issue from Congress and US Govt

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## Dil Pakistan

Dil Pakistan said:


> Aashqi Sabr Talab hey - Aur tamanna betaab
> 
> Dil ka kia rung karoon khoon-i-jigar honay tak.





Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> An English translation would tons of good...



I CANNOT WAIT FOR MY LOVE/MY DESIRE, YET! I KNOW, I NEED TO WAIT.

HOW SHOULD I TELL MY HEART TO BE PATIENT TILL I REACH MY LOVE.


this is the best I can do. This is Ghalib's poetry.

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## araz

Dil Pakistan said:


> Aashqi Sabr Talab hey - Aur tamanna betaab
> 
> Dil ka kia rung karoon khoon-i-jigar honay tak.


Hum nay maana kay taghaful na karo gay lekin.
Khaak ho jain gay hum tum ko khabar honay tak.
Bhai tum nay kya yaad dila diya>
A

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## araz

Dil Pakistan said:


> Sir! lagta hey koi jawani ki yaad hey


Bhai ab to jawani ko guzay huay bhi 40 saal ho gaie. in My uni days sitting with friends over a cup of tea and a packet of Cigarrettes, every statement had to have a shair which coincided with the situation. I have heard KL Saigal singing this Ghazal and it is one of my favourites.
A

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## Trailer23

Trailer23 said:


> Well, here it is...
> 
> Aside from having all the Action of the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper - I took the liberty of adding a few clips for ALL the F-16 fan boys that they may have never seen in the past.
> 
> 1. What the Canopy looks like when its closed from inside/back.
> 2. Clocking mechanism.
> 
> Enjoy... - Happy 14th August


​Guys, the past 4 days I was in Karachi for some work. During that period one of the Indian Trolls decided to visit my YouTube page & use it as a platform to give his views in the comment section. Clearly he doesn't have the nuts to speak up on PDF, hence wants others read his b.s.

Feel free to take *Mr. Abhineet Singh* to the cleaners.

One remark was directed at @Khafee

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## New World

Khafee said:


> I think he is referring to the Su-30, PAF once upon a time, was seriously look at the Su-35.



what happened to that seriousness of PAF? 
and did that seriousness came after EFT?

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## Khafee

Trailer23 said:


> Guys, the past 4 days I was in Karachi for some work. During that period one of the Indian Trolls decided to visit my YouTube page & use it as a platform to give his views in the comment section. Clearly he doesn't have the nuts to speak up on PDF, hence wants others read his b.s.
> 
> Feel free to take *Mr. Abhineet Singh* to the cleaners.
> 
> One remark was directed at @Khafee


Good Job buddy, Good Job



New World said:


> what happened to that seriousness of PAF?
> and did that seriousness came after EFT?


Before EFT.

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## Khafee

aliyusuf said:


> @Khafee Sahib what implications does this
> Volte-Face From Trump
> mean for the upcoming Block-72 deal for PAF in your opinion?


It is in the interest of Yahud wa Hanood, that there is no war. 

Any war that happens, will unite the fragmented Muslim Ummah, and this they can ill afford. 

The Toilet OP that you have linked, is dehati aurats wishful thinking, nothing more. The conv was the opposite of what is being BS'd in it.

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## aliyusuf

Khafee said:


> It is in the interest of Yahud wa Hanood, that there is no war.
> 
> Any war that happens, will unite the fragmented Muslim Ummah, and this they can ill afford.
> 
> The Toilet OP that you have linked, is dehati aurats wishful thinking, nothing more. The conv was the opposite of what is being BS'd in it.


Thank you for clearing that up.

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## The Accountant

Khafee said:


> It is in the interest of Yahud wa Hanood, that there is no war.
> 
> Any war that happens, will unite the fragmented Muslim Ummah, and this they can ill afford.
> 
> The Toilet OP that you have linked, is dehati aurats wishful thinking, nothing more. The conv was the opposite of what is being BS'd in it.


Not if KSA and Iran engages each other and India engages Pakistan.

Pakistan is recovering fast and if by some means we become economically stable and independent of west than there is no way we will let Israel destroy or capture GCC. Having Nukes in the arsenal, Pakistan is the biggest fear for Israel.

Sorry to tell you that but I feel now there is no chance of Muslims getting united again.


----------



## Khafee

The Accountant said:


> Not if KSA and Iran engages each other and India engages Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan is recovering fast and if by some means we become economically stable and independent of west than there is no way we will let Israel destroy or capture GCC. Having Nukes in the arsenal, Pakistan is the biggest fear for Israel.
> 
> Sorry to tell you that but I feel now there is no chance of Muslims getting united again.


You think *any govt* can control Jihadis pouring into Pak, all the way from the Atlantic Ocean to the South China Sea?

THIS is the biggest threat to the Yahud wa Hanood.

Because of a media blackout, people are unaware of how the Muslim world is simmering, at the atrocities in Kashmir.

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## Nasr

Khafee said:


> It is in the interest of Yahud wa Hanood, that there is no war.
> 
> Any war that happens, will unite the fragmented Muslim Ummah, and this they can ill afford.
> 
> The Toilet OP that you have linked, is dehati aurats wishful thinking, nothing more. The conv was the opposite of what is being BS'd in it.



Oh really? So the invasion of Iraq by the zionist states of America, wasn't "_Muslim enough_" to unite the Ummah? Or the destruction of Libya by zionist Britain and France wasn't "_anti-Islamic enough_" to get the blood of the Ummah boiling? And what about the carnage in Syria, perpetrated by zionist America, Britain, Israel and Wahhabi agents, not enough to get us Muslims off our behinds and do something about the demonization of Islam?

Forget all of the above, isn't the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza enough to get the Ummah united? Doesn't the demolition of Palestinian homes by zionist-Israel enough to get the Ummah to drop their petty squabbles and fight as one unit? Seeing Palestinians dehumanized on a daily basis isn't enough to boil your blood as a Muslim to go fight against that zionist-piglet, israel? 

Sorry my friend but your analysis of this subject is hopelessly misplaced. The enemies of Islam and Pakistan *WANT* that Pakistan gets pulled into a full blown war with India. Because Israel cannot demolish Masjid Al-Aqsa with Pakistan still standing with all it's nuclear weapons armed and intact. They want a war in South Asia to blow up the entire region, dragging China into an open conflict to support Pakistan against India. Because when China does do this, the zionists would use Japan, Australia to unleash war on China. 

They, zionist piglets want war to explode on the entire globe. That is how they have done it in Europe with the First World War and then the Second World War. Go read the history books with your brain open, only then would you understand that the zionist want global war for the "*Gentiles*" to destroy each other, so that they can make Israel the only country standing with any semblence of technology, medical expertise, food production and military power left. 

Wake up out of that myopic view of things and look at the bigger picture. India is Israel's b!tch, just as America, Britain & France are. They are all host bodies to the *Parasitic Cancer* called *Zionism*.

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## Curious_Guy

Only few news/leak threads remain active for this long and this clearly shows the attraction /desire for F16 among Pakistanis here


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## Khafee

Nasr said:


> Oh really? So the invasion of Iraq by the zionist states of America, wasn't "_Muslim enough_" to unite the Ummah? Or the destruction of Libya by zionist Britain and France wasn't "_anti-Islamic enough_" to get the blood of the Ummah boiling? And what about the carnage in Syria, perpetrated by zionist America, Britain, Israel and Wahhabi agents, not enough to get us Muslims off our behinds and do something about the demonization of Islam?
> 
> Forget all of the above, isn't the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza enough to get the Ummah united? Doesn't the demolition of Palestinian homes by zionist-Israel enough to get the Ummah to drop their petty squabbles and fight as one unit? Seeing Palestinians dehumanized on a daily basis isn't enough to boil your blood as a Muslim to go fight against that zionist-piglet, israel?
> 
> Sorry my friend but your analysis of this subject is hopelessly misplaced. The enemies of Islam and Pakistan *WANT* that Pakistan gets pulled into a full blown war with India. Because Israel cannot demolish Masjid Al-Aqsa with Pakistan still standing with all it's nuclear weapons armed and intact. They want a war in South Asia to blow up the entire region, dragging China into an open conflict to support Pakistan against India. Because when China does do this, the zionists would use Japan, Australia to unleash war on China.
> 
> They, zionist piglets want war to explode on the entire globe. That is how they have done it in Europe with the First World War and then the Second World War. Go read the history books with your brain open, only then would you understand that the zionist want global war for the "*Gentiles*" to destroy each other, so that they can make Israel the only country standing with any semblence of technology, medical expertise, food production and military power left.
> 
> Wake up out of that myopic view of things and look at the bigger picture. India is Israel's b!tch, just as America, Britain & France are. They are all host bodies to the *Parasitic Cancer* called *Zionism*.


History will prove ONE of us right.

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## Nasr

Khafee said:


> History will prove ONE of us right.



I do not care for whether I am right or wrong, rather I care for fellow Muslims to wake up and see what is coming. I care for my Pakistan and my fellow Pakistanis. Most of all I care for Islam and the Ummah of Nabi Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam. I am nothing, not worth a second look ..... those who put Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah before themselves, do not care for personal gratification. 

If you or any of my fellow Muslims and Pakistanis have understood what I have stated in my previous post. Then my job is done. History is to learn from, read it with the eyes of your soul, *OPEN*!!! And ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS let your heart turn to the Holy Quran for guidance. Because it is only the Holy Quran that would open the eyes of your soul.

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## Basel

Khafee said:


> I think he is referring to the Su-30, PAF once upon a time, was seriously look at the Su-35.



Even if your leaks comes true, those F-16s will not be able to fill gap of required maritime role fighter jet, as AShM and ARMs are not allowed on PAF F-16 it AShM is allowed then Harpoon don't have good range which Chinese or Russian AShM offer.

So Su-30SM/35 still have a place in PAF/PN.

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## araz

The Accountant said:


> Not if KSA and Iran engages each other and India engages Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan is recovering fast and if by some means we become economically stable and independent of west than there is no way we will let Israel destroy or capture GCC. Having Nukes in the arsenal, Pakistan is the biggest fear for Israel.
> 
> Sorry to tell you that but I feel now there is no chance of Muslims getting united again.


The economic stability is a decade away if not more. Even a situation where we do not need repeated IMF bailouts is yet 5 years away. The last 2 Governments have caused huge damage to the exchequer. It will need time to recover.
A

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## Burhan Wani

@Windjammer What is the Story?
Can you pls confirm this news, i heard US renewed the technical support only.

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## Khafee

Basel said:


> Even if your leaks comes true, those F-16s will not be able to fill gap of required maritime role fighter jet, as AShM and ARMs are not allowed on PAF F-16 it AShM is allowed then Harpoon don't have good range which Chinese or Russian AShM offer.
> 
> So Su-30SM/35 still have a place in PAF/PN.


Have you informed PAF of this?

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## The Eagle

aliyusuf said:


> Kindly refrain from taking pot shots by butting in to fulfill some agenda.



Quoting a troll post is like providing a life line. Either we learn & understand this simple thing to keep it clean or we shall continue by disrupting the decorum while still complaining about unrest during conversations. Let's make a clear call.

Regards,

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## TsAr

Basel said:


> Even if your leaks comes true, those F-16s will not be able to fill gap of required maritime role fighter jet, as AShM and ARMs are not allowed on PAF F-16 it AShM is allowed then Harpoon don't have good range which Chinese or Russian AShM offer.
> 
> So Su-30SM/35 still have a place in PAF/PN.


Having more F-16 would free up JF-17 for other roles that would also include maritime role

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## The Accountant

Khafee said:


> You think *any govt* can control Jihadis pouring into Pak, all the way from the Atlantic Ocean to the South China Sea?
> 
> THIS is the biggest threat to the Yahud wa Hanood.
> 
> Because of a media blackout, people are unaware of how the Muslim world is simmering, at the atrocities in Kashmir.


We fought those Jahadis , we supported air campaigns again them in Afghanistan. So armed forces of muslim countries are the first line of Israeli defense ... Jahadis have to kill muslim soldiers first before attacking Yahood wa Hanood. Sad but this is the reality

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## New World

Khafee said:


> Before EFT.



So, another wet dream.




Khafee said:


> Have you informed PAF of this?



and PAF replay would be, Go and say that to PN, They control the waters..

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## Khafee

The Accountant said:


> We fought those Jahadis , we supported air campaigns again them in Afghanistan. So armed forces of muslim countries are the first line of Israeli defense ... Jahadis have to kill muslim soldiers first before attacking Yahood wa Hanood. Sad but this is the reality


You are right, but you need to think more along these lines, and not on the forum.



New World said:


> So, another wet dream.


Finance. 



New World said:


> and PAF replay would be, Go and say that to PN, They control the waters..


This is why PN needs an independent Air Arm, 3 Sqdns min of twin heavies.

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## Trango Towers

153 pages of dreams and not a single fact of reality

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## New World

Khafee said:


> Finance.



When Zardari and Shareef are at the helm, don't expect anything..



Khafee said:


> This is why PN needs an independent Air Arm, 3 Sqdns min of twin heavies.



PAF won't allow them to have 3 sqd of twin engine heavies...

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## Khafee

New World said:


> When Zardari and Shareef are at the helm, don't expect anything..


Absolutely! The lost years.



New World said:


> PAF won't allow them to have 3 sqd of twin engine heavies...



Two issues plague this line of thought, CapEx and OpEx. If CapEx is taken care of, OpEx still remains an issue for PN.

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## Windjammer

Burhan Wani said:


> @Windjammer What is the Story?
> Can you pls confirm this news, *i heard US renewed the technical support only.*


That is about as much as i know.

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## New World

Khafee said:


> Absolutely! The lost years.



Lost decade for PAF same as 1990s.



Khafee said:


> Two issues plague this line of thought, CapEx and OpEx. If CapEx is taken care of, OpEx still remains an issue for PN.



percentage of PN share in budget should be increase to atleast 20%.

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## Nasr

araz said:


> The economic stability is a decade away if not more. Even a situation where we do not need repeated IMF bailouts is yet 5 years away. The last 2 Governments have caused huge damage to the exchequer. It will need time to recover.
> A



Then it is every Pakistani's job to work hard to make sure that corrupt politicians, bureaucrats and civil servants suffocate to the point where they would either conform to the State Law, or leave the country permanently. Never allow corruption to take root in Pakistan, ever again.

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## araz

Nasr said:


> Then it is every Pakistani's job to work hard to make sure that corrupt politicians, bureaucrats and civil servants suffocate to the point where they would either conform to the State Law, or leave the country permanently. Never allow corruption to take root in Pakistan, ever again.


Could not agree more. But on our higher ups and their philandering it is a case of/:
"Chut tee nahi haimoun ko yeh zalim lagee hui"
A

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## Basel

Khafee said:


> Have you informed PAF of this?



They know that already.



TsAr said:


> Having more F-16 would free up JF-17 for other roles that would also include maritime role



JFT is already on that role only problem is the range and station time, for that More assets need to be deployed.


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## TsAr

Basel said:


> They know that already.
> 
> 
> 
> JFT is already on that role only problem is the range and station time, for that More assets need to be deployed.


So if we get JH-7 which aircraft do you think would be escorting them? The answer I think is JF-17. So why not spend the amount upgrading and manufacturing more JF-17's rather then waste it on JH-7

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## Tipu7

F16 Blk70 is too expensive, plus USA is hesitant in providing 'top notch' variant to PAF.
PAF itself is not much inclined towards Blk70, instead it wants surplus airframes and V Kits.
As mentioned by @Khafee, it's sad how PAF lost the deal of EFT, blame is on finances as well as decision making entities.
Su35 is still in sight.

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## Basel

TsAr said:


> So if we get JH-7 which aircraft do you think would be escorting them? The answer I think is JF-17. So why not spend the amount upgrading and manufacturing more JF-17's rather then waste it on JH-7



PAF / PN are not wasting any amount on JH-7s, its just keyboard warriors of PDF who want an old relic for Pakistan.

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## Humble Analyst

mingle said:


> It was Dar that gave her blow refusing to pay otherwise no issue from Congress and US Govt


They were asking 800 million for 8 pieces of block 52


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## mingle

Humble Analyst said:


> They were asking 800 million for 8 pieces of block 52


But Dar has 600 million for media houses not for important national security program shows ur priorities.



Basel said:


> PAF / PN are not wasting any amount on JH-7s, its just keyboard warriors of PDF who want an old relic for Pakistan.


We need JF17 with western Avionics so it can fire French ASM along Harpoon 3 Sqd r enough.



Tipu7 said:


> F16 Blk70 is too expensive, plus USA is hesitant in providing 'top notch' variant to PAF.
> PAF itself is not much inclined towards Blk70, instead it wants surplus airframes and V Kits.
> As mentioned by @Khafee, it's sad how PAF lost the deal of EFT, blame is on finances as well as decision making entities.
> Su35 is still in sight.


I don't think US will provide us V Kitts alone will force US to buy New too like they did Mush era.


----------



## Humble Analyst

mingle said:


> But Dar has 600 million for media houses not for important national security program shows ur priorities.


Well the 800 million were coming From PAF budget and that meant 600 million extra so that money probably went to JF17 so probably the call was made by PAF to have 18 to 24 JF17 instead of cutting them down to get 8 F16. Originally the 8 F16 were on a discounted price of about 280 million. After Indian lobbying the additional funding was withdrawn.
Now Dar and NS were corrupt and had if we had the money PAF may have bought it but at 100 million a piece these planes were expensive as they did not even have AESA


----------



## Basel

mingle said:


> But Dar has 600 million for media houses not for important national security program shows ur priorities.
> 
> 
> We need JF17 with western Avionics so it can fire French ASM along Harpoon 3 Sqd r enough.
> 
> 
> I don't think US will provide us V Kitts alone will force US to buy New too like they did Mush era.



Chinese AShM are good too also they have longer range then out French and US AShMs.

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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> One remark was directed at @Khafee


Lol unfortunately visited IDF once they go gaga over khafee bhai......they are scared to death by the f 16 "rumour."

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## Pakistani Fighter

TsAr said:


> So if we get JH-7 which aircraft do you think would be escorting them? The answer I think is JF-17. So why not spend the amount upgrading and manufacturing more JF-17's rather then waste it on JH-7


F16 blk 52s usually escort pn crafts


----------



## mingle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> F16 blk 52s usually escort pn crafts


Good lesson learned from Atlantic incident


----------



## Alpha BeeTee

In terms of net impact, what could be the impact of these additional 20 odd F16s in the battlefield? 

I mean what would be PAF missing if we dont have these additional F16s? 

You only know the value of something once you experience life without it.

The justification of this new probable purchase should only be in the form of a missing gap these new F16s have to fill, a gap which can't be filled efficiently with JFTs specially block III. 

Otherwise we're only speculating over something which if doesn't happen, will dissappoint us and if happens, would not add any considerable value to the PAF's collective war fighting effort but would surely drain our pockets even more.


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## Foxtrot Delta

loanranger said:


> Lol unfortunately visited IDF once they go gaga over khafee bhai......they are scared to death by the f 16 "rumour."


Ofcourse even 18 of F-16 Block 70 aircraft would change dynamic into paf's favour inspite of india having 36 rafales.


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## Alpha BeeTee

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Ofcourse even 18 of F-16 Block 70 aircraft would change dynamic into paf's favour inspite of india having 36 rafales.


It wont. We can believe whatever we want. I hope u're being sarcastic.


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## TsAr

Alpha BeeTee said:


> In terms of net impact, what could be the impact of these additional 20 odd F16s in the battlefield?
> 
> I mean what would be PAF missing if we dont have these additional F16s?
> 
> You only know the value of something once you experience life without it.
> 
> The justification of this new probable purchase should only be in the form of a missing gap these new F16s have to fill, a gap which can't be filled efficiently with JFTs specially block III.
> 
> Otherwise we're only speculating over something which if doesn't happen, will dissappoint us and if happens, would not add any considerable value to the PAF's collective war fighting effort but would surely drain our pockets even more.


Force multiplier

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## Foxtrot Delta

Alpha BeeTee said:


> It wont. We can believe whatever we want. I hope u're being sarcastic.


Even block 52 is on par with rafale. Block 70 would be slightly superior. 

I guess you guage battle performance differently. Look at nato scenarios and mock excercise. 

Also pilot skills will he very important cuz both of these aircraft have beck and and neck performances. 

Better tactics, awareness and skills will win. By bet is on PAF


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## Alpha BeeTee

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Even block 52 is on par with rafale. Block 70 would be slightly superior.
> 
> I guess you guage battle performance differently. Look at nato scenarios and mock excercise.
> 
> Also pilot skills will he very important cuz both of these aircraft have beck and and neck performances.
> 
> Better tactics, awareness and skills will win. By bet is on PAF


One on one Rafale is the clear winner against F16's any block. But offcourse one on one air duels dont happen in realistic scenarios. So at best F16 gives you a better chance to disrupt IAFs offensives, better chance than JFT. But u're saying these F16s give you 'an edge' over IAF. That's not true at all.

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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> Lo.
> F-16 ka soun kay uun ke ---- phati hai ya @Khafee bhai ka zikar soun kay?
> 
> Either way..., i've been going at this prick on my YouTube page's comment section. I've invited him to show up here - that is if he isn't already BANNED.


Lol By the way indians are making increasingly anti Pakistan netflix tv shows like sacred games and



Asif Ghafoor

✔@peaceforchange

Stay in bollywood syndrome @iamsrk . For reality see RAW Spy Kulbhushan Jadev, Wing Comd Abhinandan & state of 27 Feb 2019.
You could rather promote peace & humanity by speaking against atrocities in IOJ&K and against Hindituva of Nazism obsessed RSS. https://twitter.com/iamsrk/status/1164481705509396480 …

Shah Rukh Khan

✔@iamsrk

The trailer of our first @netflix series #BardOfBlood is here. A thrilling tale of espionage, vengeance, love and duty. Hope u enjoy it...@NetflixIndia @RedChilliesEnt @emraanhashmi @_GauravVerma @BilalS158 @ribhudasgupta





34.2K
7:02 PM - Aug 23, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy

20.2K people are talking about this

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## Tumba

Alpha BeeTee said:


> One on one Rafale is the clear winner against F16's any block. But offcourse one on one air duels dont happen in realistic scenarios. So at best F16 gives you a better chance to disrupt IAFs offensives, better chance than JFT. But u're saying these F16s give you 'an edge' over IAF. That's not true at all.



wrong F-16 Block 72 which PAF is receiving has better AESA than Rafale and has better weapon integrations and choices than Rafale can ever offer saying one on one Rafale is better is an insult to the most successful fighter aircraft in human history, F-16 Block 72 one on one beats Rafale in every encounter specially with Aim-120D

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## Pakistani Fighter

Tumba said:


> F-16 Block 72 which PAF is receiving has better AESA than Rafale and has better weapon integrations and choices


First it is not confirmed if we are recieving. Secondly ppl here are saying that how China's military man is ri8 when he said F 16Vs is no match for PLA. Ppl were saying how J 16 and J 10C is better than F 16 blk 72. Also is AIM120D better than Meteor??

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## Tumba

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> First it is not confirmed if we are recieving. Secondly ppl here are saying that how China's military man is ri8 when he said F 16Vs is no match for PLA. Ppl were saying how J 16 and J 10C is better than F 16 blk 72. Also is AIM120D better than Meteor??



see both AIM120D and Meteor hit probability majorly depends on the kind of Radar guidance they are gaining from mothership thats Radar on the jet its only in last 20-30 kms the onboard sensors comes into picture here should be no doubt American AESA is league above Rafale's in software and in hardware... I say in BVR combat one to one F16 BLK72 wins 8 time out of 10

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## The Accountant

Shabi1 said:


> F-16s dont give PAF an edge over Rafale but then again they didnt have an edge against SU-30s either. As 27th Feb proved its the over all force multiplier package. Erieyes working together with datalinked Fighters F-16/JF-17s give PAF the edge. The jets can fire missiles at maximum missile ranges because of datalink.
> 
> Rafale once India gets Meteor missiles will be a headache for PAF but we have the PL-15 to counter it. Whereas Meteor has been rejected for integration on SU-30 (they will use enhanced R-27s), PAF can eventually manage to equip all JF-17s with it.
> 
> The main role Rafale will be employed will however be strike missions as that is where InAF is really lacking. Kargil and Balakot have proven InAF has consistently had a poor record in strike role. The Rafale will give them a reliable fighter with higher availability, it might be more advanced but in terms of capability what InAF is doing is catching up on shortcomings from other platforms.



F16 block 52 are supperior in configuration to su30 specially in terms of BVR ... aim1w0C has larger range furthermore larger rcs of su30 is also a big negative for mkis ...

Rafael were planned to use for strike but given the performance of mki against f16s and jf17s it is highly likely that rafarl will be used for air superiroity role in high threat environment

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## Rafael

Folks need to understand that after Inviting and awarding Modi en masse, we would be living in fool’s paradise to believe that any Arab country would pay for Pakistani F16s. They would rather have Pakistan become a poodle to India and US just like themselves. 

A war is coming and we will have to fight alone. No Arabs, no Chinese, no Turks are coming. Of course we can avoid it by giving in and become a vassal state. The IMF, the FATF, the Kashimir negotiations offer is all in that context. 

THAT is a choice we have to make.

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## Khan Sahab

If people are still fantasizing about this under the impression that a friendly gulf naton will bear the cost, remember that UAE and Bahrain have conferred their highest civilian awards to Modi amid Kashmir crises. Oman has given access of its port to India already. Saudis have not issues any statement in favor of Pakistan's stance.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Rafael said:


> Folks need to understand that after Inviting and awarding Modi en masse, we would be living in fool’s paradise to believe that any Arab country would pay for Pakistani F16s. They would rather have Pakistan become a poodle to India and US just like themselves.
> 
> A war is coming and we will have to fight alone. No Arabs, no Chinese, no Turks are coming. Of course we can avoid it by giving in and become a vassal state. The IMF, the FATF, the Kashimir negotiations offer is all in that context.
> 
> THAT is a choice we have to make.


A war is coming to the gulf too, and we will watch as they burn.

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## GriffinsRule

Khan Sahab said:


> If people are still fantasizing about this under the impression that a friendly gulf naton will bear the cost, remember that UAE and Bahrain have conferred their highest civilian awards to Modi amid Kashmir crises. Oman has given access of its port to India already. Saudis have not issues any statement in favor of Pakistan's stance.



When I raised this point a week ago, I was told to keep guessing lol
And that is before the new lows in our relationship with UAE and Bahrain


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## Flight of falcon

Can I ask people what do government of UAE owes us ? Why should we expect them to damage their long standing relationship with India? India imports massive amount of oil and in return Indians invest massive amount of money in UAE real estate and tourism. 

Last I remembered they threatened us with serious consequences for refusing to join the Yemen war. 

So it’s ok if we show them the middle finger in their hour of need .... and yet they still deposited 3 billion in our accounts few months back.... but we expect them to reverse their decision to give Modi a civilian award which was decided way before the Kashmir crisis?

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## Trango Towers

Tumba said:


> wrong F-16 Block 72 which PAF is receiving has better AESA than Rafale and has better weapon integrations and choices than Rafale can ever offer saying one on one Rafale is better is an insult to the most successful fighter aircraft in human history, F-16 Block 72 one on one beats Rafale in every encounter specially with Aim-120D


Receiving....when? You placed the order? As government of Pakistan hasn't.
I am a little confused here. Now a rumour is fact


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## Pakistani Fighter

The Accountant said:


> F16 block 52 are supperior in configuration to su30 specially in terms of BVR ... aim1w0C has larger range furthermore larger rcs of su30 is also a big negative for mkis ...
> 
> Rafael were planned to use for strike but given the performance of mki against f16s and jf17s it is highly likely that rafarl will be used for air superiroity role in high threat environment


F16s have proved. Tnunders need to prve


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## Trango Towers

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> F16s have proved. Tnunders need to prve


So thunder that took out the mig 21 and an Iranian drone and missions against terrorists isnt a proven system. Oh dear


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## Pakistani Fighter

Trango Towers said:


> So thunder that took out the mig 21 and an Iranian drone and missions against terrorists isnt a proven system. Oh dear





Trango Towers said:


> mig 21


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## Trango Towers

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


>


Yes you know more than PAF continue to bash your head against the wall. On this thread we have order block 72 as well.


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## Pakistani Fighter

Trango Towers said:


> Yes you know more than PAF continue to bash your head against the wall. On this thread we have order block 72 as well.


Yes when u are acting so dumb, I will bang my head


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## Counter-Errorist

Trango Towers said:


> So thunder that took out the mig 21 and an Iranian drone and missions against terrorists isnt a proven system. Oh dear


Thunder didn't take down Mig. Fireworks can take down that drone. Our thunders are itching for a real battle.

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## Trango Towers

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Yes when u are acting so dumb, I will bang my head


https://theaviationgeekclub.com/jf-...-were-around-too-pakistani-spokesperson-says/
Do u know more than the pak military spokesman.. now who is dumb. The fact you are stupid is because you have been banging your head against the wall. Dont abuse again. If you cant talk and want to believe stories that's your problem



Counter-Errorist said:


> Thunder didn't take down Mig. Fireworks can take down that drone. Our thunders are itching for a real battle.


No u took the mig down by talking to it and your kite took down the iranian drone but when the yanks were bombing us you were the one complaining we cant shoot them down and here a firecracker. Loool

Kids


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## batmannow

Trango Towers said:


> https://theaviationgeekclub.com/jf-...-were-around-too-pakistani-spokesperson-says/
> Do u know more than the pak military spokesman.. now who is dumb. The fact you are stupid is because you have been banging your head against the wall. Dont abuse again. If you cant talk and want to believe stories that's your problem
> 
> 
> No u toom the mig down by talking to it and your kite took down the iranian drone but when the yanks were bombing us you were the one complaining we cant shoot them down and here a firecracker. Loool
> 
> Kids


Takimg down usaf, birds r not a problem bt problems may comes after that?
That thy may retaliate, with a much bigger force and all that for some terrorists who were taking heads of our ppls in waziristan?
Actully we played well at tht time many ppls blame Musharaf and his team bt reality is, drones took bigger hits killing so called bigger cobras who were biting everyone's?
Bt after Musharafs time, kiyani used that situation to his benefit, if OBL could be found after Musharaf thn he could hve been found the time of Musharaf too but why tht not happened then???
Americans never wanted to attack on full scale air war on Pakistan, thier targets been given by ISI ground teams?
So all tht was a tactical move in a larger operation and thats it, and I can bet tht even after that, no army in the world would hve clread the KPK and tribal areas like PAK ARMY did in stages?
Bt in tht war, not top notch fighters jets been used too often, mostly it was gunships?
Thunder has a massive potential, it csn grow to 4.5 gen if we can get superior gadgetry, or may be replace twin engine version of it, with its F16 type swing and shap turning capability it ill be a monster with twin engines and with a longer range?
And thn it can serve 30 years in pak skies, but right now pakistan needs to move closer to Russian tech which I think with all of PAF experiences with western fighter jets can bring a deadly combination, cause after usa its just RUSSIA which compete it, with all sections?
I'm hoping the croupt, eara of getting F16S will be over soon and we may hve some long understanding and partnerships developing with Russia and may get something called a beast?

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## Counter-Errorist

Trango Towers said:


> No u took the mig down by talking to it and your kite took down the iranian drone but when the yanks were bombing us you were the one complaining we cant shoot them down and here a firecracker. Loool



Baba Loool, drones are designed for loitering, they fly at low speeds and have minimal defenses. If you think a thunder cannot take out a drone, you're a bigger fool than Abhinandan flapping his mustache to fly back to India. The predators flew and bombed within our territory because we let them.


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## Trango Towers

batmannow said:


> Takimg down usaf, birds r not a problem bt problems may comes after that?
> That thy may retaliate, with a much bigger force and all that for some terrorists who were taking heads of our ppls in waziristan?
> Actully we played well at tht time many ppls blame Musharaf and his team bt reality is, drones took bigger hits killing so called bigger cobras who were biting everyone's?
> Bt after Musharafs time, kiyani used that situation to his benefit, if OBL could be found after Musharaf thn he could hve been found the time of Musharaf too but why tht not happened then???
> Americans never wanted to attack on full scale air war on Pakistan, thier targets been given by ISI ground teams?
> So all tht was a tactical move in a larger operation and thats it, and I can bet tht even after that, no army in the world would hve clread the KPK and tribal areas like PAK ARMY did in stages?
> Bt in tht war, not top notch fighters jets been used too often, mostly it was gunships?
> Thunder has a massive potential, it csn grow to 4.5 gen if we can get superior gadgetry, or may be replace twin engine version of it, with its F16 type swing and shap turning capability it ill be a monster with twin engines and with a longer range?
> And thn it can serve 30 years in pak skies, but right now pakistan needs to move closer to Russian tech which I think with all of PAF experiences with western fighter jets can bring a deadly combination, cause after usa its just RUSSIA which compete it, with all sections?
> I'm hoping the croupt, eara of getting F16S will be over soon and we may hve some long understanding and partnerships developing with Russia and may get something called a beast?


Bhai...pakistan was in league with america to use the drones. Its was common practice to share intel and practice was for Pakistan to deny any hand in the bombing. The public would have turned on the military



Counter-Errorist said:


> Baba Loool, drones are designed for loitering, they fly at low speeds and have minimal defenses. If you think a thunder cannot take out a drone, you're a bigger fool than Abhinandan flapping his mustache to fly back to India. The predators flew and bombed within our territory because we let them.


Please dont call me your baba
I think your baba didnt teach you mannerd or educate you. Thats why you are waffling
Did you even read the attachment I posted for you. And what o said re the drones. You just jumped into an argument without even thinking. 
So go play with your little mate and grow up. Abuse leads to abuse. You called me baba. Here I could have been so nasty that you would run to mods. But it's not necessary. Good bye


----------



## batmannow

Trango Towers said:


> Bhai...pakistan was in league with america to use the drones. Its was common practice to share intel and practice was for Pakistan to deny any hand in the bombing. The public would have turned on the military


Do u ever tried to understand why pak army had to do tht?
Cause the leadership was sensible and it used american money and weaponry against terrorists who were trying to out law the whole nation?
On the name of fake Islam?
No ppls turned on army, it's just few opportunists who black mailed pak state for a while, took minsters and money and then enjoyed all the game?
Yes there was a colleterl damage bt then it happens every where in the world?
Is pakistan is safe fro tht time or not, just think about it?

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## Trango Towers

batmannow said:


> Do u ever tried to understand why pak army had to do tht?
> Cause the leadership was sensible and it used american money and weaponry against terrorists who were trying to out law the whole nation?
> On the name of fake Islam?
> No ppls turned on army, it's just few opportunists who black mailed pak state for a while, took minsters and money and then enjoyed all the game?
> Yes there was a colleterl damage bt then it happens every where in the world?
> Is pakistan is safe fro tht time or not, just think about it?


Am I disagreeing with you???? Re the drone strikes? I have no idea why you are typing all this stuff?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Trango Towers said:


> he fact you are stupid is because you have been banging your head against the wall


Tmha dimaagh kharab hai. Isme mei kiya karsakta hun. Yahan pdfs me ample proofs achukr hain. Tm na maano


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## batmannow

Trango Towers said:


> Am I disagreeing with you???? Re the drone strikes? I have no idea why you are typing all this stuff?


Actully, if u kerp reading those typical stupid Jung newspaper storirs thn u ill never get any idea how we used America's military tools to our advantage, and in drone strikes, if we take out stupid paid prapoganda fact will stand up and tell u, Tht mostly terrorists being killed in drone attacks, Thts all not topic and u can disagree, as u like bt u can't change the fact?
Now come back to this topic

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## Humble Analyst

Flight of falcon said:


> Can I ask people what do government of UAE owes us ? Why should we expect them to damage their long standing relationship with India? India imports massive amount of oil and in return Indians invest massive amount of money in UAE real estate and tourism.
> 
> Last I remembered they threatened us with serious consequences for refusing to join the Yemen war.
> 
> So it’s ok if we show them the middle finger in their hour of need .... and yet they still deposited 3 billion in our accounts few months back.... but we expect them to reverse their decision to give Modi a civilian award which was decided way before the Kashmir crisis?


They can do what they want but giving Modi award was way out of the way and not at all necessary to have good relations with India. The timing is so bad and it encourages and up lauds the Kashmir annexation. That is a problem.

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## The Accountant

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> F16s have proved. Tnunders need to prve


Thunders launched the strike and were there in the area with f16s ... so had they been inferrior like migs mirrages and su would have tried to take them down ...

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## Riz

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Tmha dimaagh kharab hai. Isme mei kiya karsakta hun. Yahan pdfs me ample proofs achukr hain. Tm na maano


Every one talked about possibilities of using F-16s to shot down indian Mig-21 and Su30mki, however no one confirms better then DGISPR... Tum akhir pichly 6 months sa aik he bat keun point out kar rahy ho k thunders na nhi F-16 na Mig giraya..??


----------



## Bratva

Riz said:


> Every one talked about possibilities of using F-16s to shot down indian Mig-21 and Su30mki, however no one confirms better then DGISPR... Tum akhir pichly 6 months sa aik he bat keun point out kar rahy ho k thunders na nhi F-16 na Mig giraya..??





Trango Towers said:


> So thunder that took out the mig 21 and an Iranian drone and missions against terrorists isnt a proven system. Oh dear



What plane Wing Commander Nauman Ali Khan was flying because he is the mig slayer ?

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## Sharuf

Bratva said:


> What plane Wing Commander Nauman Ali Khan was flying because he is the mig slayer ?


F-16


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## Bratva

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> View attachment 576572



All pics are fake.

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## danger007

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> View attachment 576572



isn't the thread about F 16 blk 70 secret deal? ?? any update ??


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## Cookie Monster

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> View attachment 576572


Not the right thread to post these but it's cool...I don't mind.

Are these real? Or photoshopped? Also it's not like PAF to count a "kill" unless it's super duper confirmed(like in case of Abhinandan's Mig21). So either that MKI on that JF17 is photoshopped...or PAF just hasn't released solid proof of that MKI's kill.


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## Pakistani Fighter

danger007 said:


> isn't the thread about F 16 blk 70 secret deal? ?? any update ??


Wait till 2021


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

danger007 said:


> isn't the thread about F 16 blk 70 secret deal? ?? any update ??



Well JF17 fans were asking about JF17 2 kills in recent February Encounter of Indian Airforce

From Pakistan's point of view we only care about the end result

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## Riz

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> View attachment 576572


Already posted and proved photo shopped

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think , for most part what is important is Pakistan secured it's air space and that is why the Military when they did press release were focused on that part

JF17 got kills
F16 got kills
F7PG got kills
Mirage got the kills

The *end result* is what matters



I think it is good idea to focus on the F16V discussion I am quite interested to see how the proposal moves forward, the discussion about F16V has no connection to JF17 both programs are different for Pakistan's airforce.




For reference
https://arynews.tv/en/paf-pilots-awarded-military-medals/





ISLAMABAD: President Arif Alvi has conferred military honour upon two Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilots, Wing Commander Noman Ali and Squadron Leader Hasan Mehmood, for downing an Indian jets in February, ISPR Reported on Wednesday.

According to Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), the President of Pakistan has announced to give the Military awards to the officers and soldiers of Pakistan Army, Navy and Air Force.
*
President has announced Sitara-i-Jurat for one, Tamgha-i-Jurat for two, Sitara-i-Bisalat for eight, Tamgha-i-Bisalat for 88 and certificates for 94 forces’ personnel, said ISPR.*

Following officers have been conferred with Tamgha-i-Jurat:- Group Capt Faheem Ahmad Khan, Air Force, Squadron Leader Hasan Mahmood Siddiqui, Air Force.

Following officers and men have been conferred with Sitara-i-Basalat:- Sub Maj Munawar Khan (Shaheed), Arty, Lnk Raza Ullah (Shaheed), FC Bln, Lnk Nazir Khan (Shaheed), NLI, Sep Imdad Ullah Khan (Shaheed), NLI, Capt Syed Ailya Hasan, Navy, Lt Commander Humair Iftikhar, Navy, Air Commodore Zaffar Aslam, Air Force, Group Capt Rana Ilyas Hassan, Air Force.

On February 27, Pakistan had shot down two Indian fighter jets that attempted to violate its airspace and captured an Indian pilot Abhinandan Varthaman who was released on March 1 as a “peace gesture”.

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## Aamir Hussain

The bottom line is this....they had their SU 30 and Mirage 2000 in the area too just as we had our F-16's. They could have engaged the retreating PAF Mirages and JF 17's with their BVR's why didn't they??? 

I guess they were scrambling to save to their behinds instead of shooting down the intruding planes.

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## Riz

Aamir Hussain said:


> The bottom line is this....they had their SU 30 and Mirage 2000 in the area too just as we had our F-16's. They could have engaged the retreating PAF Mirages and JF 17's with their BVR's why didn't they???
> 
> I guess they were scrambling to save to their behinds instead of shooting down the intruding planes.


They were locked by F-16s while flying over Islamabad

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## loanranger

Riz said:


> over Islamabad


Why were our BVRs fired from near their max range. Its the only reason why Amraam dodgers exist today.


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## Flight of falcon

loanranger said:


> Why were our BVRs fired from near their max range. Its the only reason why Amraam dodgers exist today.




They were fired to scare aircrafts coming to help Mig21 in trouble. They ran like hell and their mighty airforce let PAF have a free reigns over the sky.... bombing Indians , shooting planes .... anything we wished to do and IAF was no where to be found .

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## Riz

loanranger said:


> Why were our BVRs fired from near their max range. Its the only reason why Amraam dodgers exist today.


We fired 2 AMRAAMs.. And both scored.. 1 Su30mki, 1 Mig21... There dodging story is bullshit.. They never able to find 3rd 4th and 5th Amraams parts until today.. It means they were lying

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## aliyusuf

This patch, which was perhaps originally posted by @Windjammer, reveals the flight parameters of the Su-30MKI shoot down for the launching PAF F-16 i.e. speed = 374 knots, altitude = 34250 ft and target range = 39.5 nautical miles ≈ 73 KM.

That is nowhere near the max range of the AIM-120-C5 AMRAAM.

And on record, this would be the longest range air-to-air kill in the sub-continental air combat arena till date.

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## khanasifm

aliyusuf said:


> View attachment 576648
> 
> This patch, which was perhaps originally posted by @Windjammer, reveals the flight parameters of the Su-30MKI shoot down for the launching PAF F-16 i.e. speed = 374 knots, altitude = 34250 ft and target range = 39.5 nautical miles ≈ 73 KM.
> 
> That is nowhere near the max range of the AIM-120-C5 AMRAAM.
> 
> And on record, this would be the longest range air-to-air kill in the sub-continental air combat arena till date.



Do not read much in max ranges as they are ideal
Conditions and max altitude


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## aliyusuf

khanasifm said:


> Do not read much in max ranges as they are ideal
> Conditions and max altitude


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## Pakistani Fighter

Aamir Hussain said:


> They could have engaged the retreating PAF Mirages and JF 17's with their BVR's why didn't they???


Your F 16s were escorting them. That's why


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

aliyusuf said:


> View attachment 576648
> 
> This patch, which was perhaps originally posted by @Windjammer, reveals the flight parameters of the Su-30MKI shoot down for the launching PAF F-16 i.e. speed = 374 knots, altitude = 34250 ft and target range = 39.5 nautical miles ≈ 73 KM.
> 
> That is nowhere near the max range of the AIM-120-C5 AMRAAM.
> 
> And on record, this would be the longest range air-to-air kill in the sub-continental air combat arena till date.


Has anyone heard this audio!!

https://clyp.it/o1qoejl5


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## aliyusuf

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Has anyone heard this audio!!
> 
> https://clyp.it/o1qoejl5


Yes.


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## Imran Khan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Has anyone heard this audio!!
> 
> https://clyp.it/o1qoejl5


i am not fully agreed with him .


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Imran Khan said:


> i am not fully agreed with him .


Yeah the part where he bragged 10000 officers could have died did not sound plausible. The remaining audio had some convincing excerpts.

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## Imran Khan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Yeah the part where he bragged 10000 officers could have died did not sound plausible. The remaining audio had some convincing excerpts.


ALSO MK2 kill is not worth to talk sir . no one claimed it . abut MI-17 i am also suspected that amraam hit it .

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Riz said:


> We fired 2 AMRAAMs.. And both scored.. 1 Su30mki, 1 Mig21... There dodging story is bullshit.. They never able to find *3rd 4th and 5th* Amraams parts until today.. It means they were lying


Or, they also had the "hit"...

Remember, Modi was all but gave up on the current IAF capability!!! He has had his hopes pinned into the Rafaels!!! And, he is now taking to the French to get more...

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## airmarshal

If there is conflict on Kashmir, USA will back India. So stop living fool's paradise. We are not getting any weapons from USA. USA, Israel and India are status quo powers. Its a natural alliance.

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## Ultima Thule

airmarshal said:


> If there is conflict on Kashmir, USA will back India. So stop living fool's paradise. We are not getting any weapons from USA. USA, Israel and India are status quo powers. Its a natural alliance.


USA NEED US to get out of Afghanistan that's why they offering us with their latest tech and USA can gives us because balancing between IAF/PAF @airmarshal

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## mingle

airmarshal said:


> If there is conflict on Kashmir, USA will back India. So stop living fool's paradise. We are not getting any weapons from USA. USA, Israel and India are status quo powers. Its a natural alliance.


We need a good diplomatic effort so this allience won't go against Us



Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Or, they also had the "hit"...
> 
> Remember, Modi was all but gave up on the current IAF capability!!! He has had his hopes pinned into the Rafaels!!! And, he is now taking to the French to get more...


India's economy is tanking so I doubt they will go more Rafale will sort another Russian option probably Mig 35 in good numbers to replace Mig 21.

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## jedijedi

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Yeah the part where he bragged 10000 officers could have died did not sound plausible. The remaining audio had some convincing excerpts.



The guy is making a boastful claim and seems semi-technical with tidbits of plausible info and not a 100% accurate technical data.

1- 500+ knots isn't close to 2000kmph. I'd have used a higher knot figure if i wanted to say something was flying close to 2000kph
2- The guy is possibly hinting at more than 2 kills. 2 jets hit earlier at LoC and then more Aircraft hit deep inside, Mirage around Budgam and Mi17. Mi17 has been confirmed as a fratricide by India and no Mirage was hit inside Kashmir, just an Su30 was claimed.
3- 10000 is almost as boastful a figure as the 300 claimed by India/IAF in Balakot.


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## araz

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Has anyone heard this audio!!
> 
> https://clyp.it/o1qoejl5


There are doubts about the accuracy of the account. For instance the helo was an own goal and that was accepted. The Badgam shoot down was possibly a Mig 21 which was shown on the Indian TV.
A


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## loanranger

Any news about F 16s yet ?


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## TsAr

loanranger said:


> Any news about F 16s yet ?


Bhai itni galdi tu Honda aur Toyota walay bhi gari deliver nai kartya jitni galdi humhain f-16 chyain


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## loanranger

TsAr said:


> Bhai itni galdi tu Honda aur Toyota walay bhi gari deliver nai kartya jitni galdi humhain f-16 chyain


The day India gets more than 5 Rafale see how their attitude changes towards us....they are buying time...we need those jets!

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## TsAr

loanranger said:


> The day India gets more than 5 Rafale see how their attitude changes towards us....they are buying time...we need those jets!


India needs to integrate Rafale into their eco system. Their pilots would require time to get acquainted with the machine, we on the other hand are already familiar with F-16. As per the thread owner F-16 should arrive in 2021 if everything goes to plan


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## loanranger

TsAr said:


> India needs to integrate Rafale into their eco system. Their pilots would require time to get acquainted with the machine, we on the other hand are already familiar with F-16. As per the thread owner F-16 should arrive in 2021 if everything goes to plan


Indian pilots are already training for rafale since a few years now. Just like when we sent our pilots to the US. Lets hope we get some more hints about f 16s in comming months.

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## Tipu7

Aamir Hussain said:


> The bottom line is this....they had their SU 30 and Mirage 2000 in the area too just as we had our F-16's. *They could have engaged the retreating PAF Mirages and JF 17's with their BVR's why didn't they*???
> 
> I guess they were scrambling to save to their behinds instead of shooting down the intruding planes.


They did.
Mirages managed to sneak away, however Jf17s came under fire but ditched them successfully.








loanranger said:


> Any news about F 16s yet ?


Block 70 not available for Pakistan.
Downgraded variant is on offer with hafty price tag, thus we are not interested.

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## denel

Amazing, this thread is continuing on with no basis in facts.

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## loanranger

Tipu7 said:


> Block 70 not available for Pakistan.
> Downgraded variant is on offer with hafty price tag, thus we are not interested.


 SAD


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## The Eagle

Tipu7 said:


> They did.
> Mirages managed to sneak away, however Jf17s came under fire but ditched them successfully.



Wasn't that supposed to mean that they tried their locks Mica -M2K and R-73 Archer on Bisons. Then the surprise emerged for a hot debate in relevant circles about Thunder's jamming/EW capability. 

Also, they couldn't take shot due to failing to have a lock and then adversary was given a return tone after breaking the lock which forced them to turn around. May be I am wrong but wanted to say.

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## Trailer23

Tipu7 said:


> Downgraded variant is on offer with hafty price tag, thus we are not interested.


I'm sorry, but when did this development take place...?

I get it that NO Block 70/72 have officially been ordered/approved, but I haven't heard anything about (used) F-16's hefty tag either.

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## Tipu7

Trailer23 said:


> I'm sorry, but when did this development take place...?
> 
> I get it that NO Block 70/72 have officially been ordered/approved, but I haven't heard anything about (used) F-16's hefty tag either.


They are offering New F16 Blk70 minus AESA with a hafty price tag. PAF on the other hand is interested in surplus airframes only, which USA is not allowing. (as per now).


The Eagle said:


> Wasn't that supposed to mean that they tried their locks Mica -M2K and R-73 Archer on Bisons. Then the surprise emerged for a hot debate in relevant circles about Thunder's jamming/EW capability.
> 
> Also, they couldn't take shot due to failing to have a lock and then adversary was given a return tone after breaking the lock which forced them to turn around. May be I am wrong but wanted to say.


Let's wait till this defense day. There is a lot to reveal by PAF, like Abhinandan RT, info about targets engaged during strikes and the famous MKI shot.

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## Super Falcon

Paf is not getting blk 70 but only blk 52 jets and we lack new erathese are not block 70 these all are block 52 jets

We are lacking new era air to air missiles

Paf must consider new platform so new missiles like meteor IRIS-T can be Used india is going to get new air to air missile our AMRAAM and short range AIM 9M are older models and prone to new jamners of rafale 

We need to buy 20 to 30 new jets 

Paf isnot ordering new AIM 9X and AIM 120 D models with better hit ratio

We had destroyediaf jets due to lack of range and capability do not get over confidence we must think two foot above india

Our airforce need immediate revamp90 percent jets are 40 yrs old and what new we have are 3.5 gen we must buy new jets



denel said:


> Amazing, this thread is continuing on with no basis in facts.


Message to paf command our enemy knew our capability and they are counering them what u have to do more

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## PakShaheen79

Super Falcon said:


> Paf is not getting blk 70 but only blk 52 jets and we lack new erathese are not block 70 these all are block 52 jets
> 
> We are lacking new era air to air missiles
> 
> Paf must consider new platform so new missiles like meteor IRIS-T can be Used india is going to get new air to air missile our AMRAAM and short range AIM 9M are older models and prone to new jamners of rafale
> 
> We need to buy 20 to 30 new jets
> 
> Paf isnot ordering new AIM 9X and AIM 120 D models with better hit ratio
> 
> We had destroyediaf jets due to lack of range and capability do not get over confidence we must think two foot above india
> 
> *Our airforce need immediate revamp90 percent jets are 40 yrs old and what new we have are 3.5 gen we must buy new jets*
> 
> more



I completely agree with the bold part. Problem is money can be arranged but even then US will never sell these fighters to PAF for number of obvious reasons. These range from Indian MMRCA to regional strategic scenario where lately Pakistan was able to assert herself against the aspirations of Washington. Entire Israeli lobby is behind India. For PAF only possibility is if Pakistan surrender on something very strategic like Kashmir, CPEC, etc. US is not worried about CPEC from Pakistan's perspective they knew how we have managed to mismanage CPEC to take any advantage of it, they are worried because it is a mean to break the encirclement of China and Russia upon which the US has spent much political and financial capital. 

In this backdrop, IMHO, best option for right now is to prioritize our goals and put turning around PAF on top. Give more preference to air power in national power compared to Army. AF can save ground forces and clear any obstacles our strike corps may face in case of war. So, far I don't think such thinking prevail among our strategic community and lot of security managers. So far PAF is worried out protecting our own skies. Pure defensive thinking. Once we start thinking about making PAF the spearhead of our armed power, PAF will find funding on priority basis just like our nuclear and missile programs and it is damn time to do it.We cannot match Indian army and navy in numbers now but in AF domain there is a possibility as IAF lacks squadron strength which cannot be fulfilled by imported fighters. If our planes are getting old so is their's. so, let's build one arm that is going to operate both above land and sea providing the most critical support.

For PAF, solution lies in more advanced blocks of Thunders, Project Azm but these must be put on acceleration like we did with our nuclear program. Plus, I would really love to see PAF becoming part of something like H-20. Having said that, I do understand that F-16s are important for us as we have invested so much time and human capital on them apart from financial resources over the years. But this plane is entangled in regional geopolitics now. For F-16s, we must focus more on our diplomacy to counter Indo/Israeli lobbying and current Kashmir crisis provides us an opportunity to make the world see what India under Modi actually has become and then hope when we place an order it will not met with resistance like we saw during the sale of those 8 F-16Block 52Ds few years ago. PAF's will be wise to seek permission to purchase as many older frame of F-16s as it can as upgrading them will not be problem from Turkey they might not form the most advanced tier but we will have a proven platform in numbers and any purchase of new ones along the line would be just a bounce.

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## Khafee

Tipu7 said:


> They are offering New F16 Blk70 minus AESA with a hafty price tag. PAF on the other hand is interested in surplus airframes only, which USA is not allowing. (as per now).


Blk 70/72 without Aesa = Blk52+

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## Gripen9

Khafee said:


> Blk 70/72 without Aesa = Blk52+


Do you have an update?
Is the acquisition still on track?


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## Dual Wielder

@Khafee 

Just make sure they deliver those planes via amazon prime, we need those planes man ASAP... There's a gorilla on the loose on the east, and his mad..

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Aamir Hussain said:


> The bottom line is this....they had their SU 30 and Mirage 2000 in the area too just as we had our F-16's. They could have engaged the retreating PAF Mirages and JF 17's with their BVR's why didn't they???
> 
> I guess they were scrambling to save to their behinds instead of shooting down the intruding planes.


I wonder, if at some point, it's a question of diminishing returns.

Not once, not even in 1999, has there been a fight with such level of qualitative parity in the modern missile age.

You have two air forces with AEW&C networked BVR assets, and that too in the hundreds on both sides. Be it an F-16 or JF-17, the point is to lob a BVRAAM with a sufficiently good hit probability. So, I wonder, as far as the PAF is now concerned is having more F-16s worth it when for that price they can get a better BVRAAM (e.g., PL-15) and a lot more JF-17s to carry them.

If anything, I'm not as concerned about the A2A as much as AAD. So, the S-400 could make high-altitude SOW deployments tougher, even from our own side of the border. We'd have to fly lower and, as a result, the glide-based SOWs (H-2, H-4, REK, etc) might lose range, and we'll need to build-up on ALCMs.

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## WebMaster

Changing the thread title appropriately.

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## BRAVO_

in these 159 pages does anybody come up with any credible link yet??? or still entire thread is based upon rumors and dreams ???


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## Khafee

WebMaster said:


> Changing the thread title appropriately.


I was 2 seconds away from opening a thread on yesterday's meeting at AHQ. Thanks!

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## Dil Pakistan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wonder, if at some point, it's a question of diminishing returns.
> 
> Not once, not even in 1999, has there been a fight with such level of qualitative parity in the modern missile age.
> 
> You have two air forces with AEW&C networked BVR assets, and that too in the hundreds on both sides. Be it an F-16 or JF-17, the point is to lob a BVRAAM with a sufficiently good hit probability. So, I wonder, as far as the PAF is now concerned is having more F-16s worth it when for that price they can get a better BVRAAM (e.g., PL-15) and a lot more JF-17s to carry them.
> 
> If anything, I'm not as concerned about the A2A as much as AAD. So, the S-400 could make high-altitude SOW deployments tougher, even from our own side of the border. We'd have to fly lower and, as a result, the glide-based SOWs (H-2, H-4, REK, etc) might lose range, and we'll need to build-up on ALCMs.



….or may be, the recent test of Ghauri was the counter step in this direction !!!!



Khafee said:


> I was 2 seconds away from opening a thread on yesterday's meeting at AHQ. Thanks!



Ahh! Khafee - is it a "flat line" now?

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## Ra's al Ghul

IMHO, if it comes. it will be after 2022.


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## hussain0216

Khafee said:


> I was 2 seconds away from opening a thread on yesterday's meeting at AHQ. Thanks!



What's the word at AHQ?


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## WebMaster

Khafee said:


> I was 2 seconds away from opening a thread on yesterday's meeting at AHQ. Thanks!


Please make sure you have permission to release the info you are releasing.

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## Khafee

WebMaster said:


> Please make sure you have permission to release the info you are releasing.


After nearly 3 decades in service, thank you for reminding me.

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## Dil Pakistan

Khafee said:


> After nearly 3 decades in service, thank you for reminding me.



So! it means you are not releasing

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## Flight of falcon

Khafee said:


> After nearly 3 decades in service, thank you for reminding me.




Please Khafee I had some really tough patients today ... need some news to cheer myself.... loosen up your info tap.



doorstar said:


> I think he said he is not posting it because you altered the thread title to belittle him.
> BTW why do never interfere with Mastan Khan when he post all kinds of condescending nonsense including equating himself with Imam Khomeini in one is braggadocios posts? I am not even going to mention the rubbish think tanks post




Best way to shut people up is to releases another Khafee leak ...

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## WebMaster

doorstar said:


> I think he said he is not posting it because you altered the thread title to belittle him.
> BTW why do never interfere with Mastan Khan when he post all kinds of condescending nonsense including equating himself with Imam Khomeini in one is braggadocios posts?


There is no belittling here. I have read a few last posts and there seems to be an issue with AESA radar. So things might very well be in works, but until it is confirmed by the officials. Lets stick with IN WORKS / RUMOR.

Regarding your second point, we are aware.Create a thread in GHQ to discuss the issue.

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## Flight of falcon

WebMaster said:


> There is no belittling here. I have read a few last posts and there seems to be an issue with AESA radar. So things might very well be in works, but until it is confirmed by the officials. Lets stick with IN WORKS / RUMOR.




So call it in works.... there is a big difference between In works vs rumours

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## PakSword

WebMaster said:


> There is no belittling here. I have read a few last posts and there seems to be an issue with AESA radar. So things might very well be in works, but until it is confirmed by the officials. Lets stick with IN WORKS / RUMOR.
> 
> Regarding your second point, we are aware.Create a thread in GHQ to discuss the issue.


Better change the title to something else.. rather than calling it a rumor..

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## Flight of falcon

*https://www.defensenews.com/global/...eks-more-than-us-funds-in-meeting-with-trump/*


*Money isn’t everything: Pakistan seeks more than US funds in meeting with Trump*
By: Joe Gould and Usman Ansari   July 23
stronger ties on security and trade — and, according to Trump, that the aid might be restored.

“All of that money can come back, depending on what we work out,” Trump told reporters ahead of a meeting between the two leaders at the White House on Monday.

Pakistan may, in the coming days, help end the Taliban’s reluctance to deal directly with the Afghan government, Khan said. The prime minister said he never believed there would be a military solution and that a peace deal appeared closer than ever.

“Pakistan needs stability,” Khan said. “We have 15 years of fighting this war on terror, over 70,000 Pakistani casualties, over $150 billion lost to the economy. ... We desperately want peace, and I am happy President Trump has pushed this forward.”

Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, believes Pakistan would be interested in a resumption of military aid, though the government understands that Trump’s view of international relations is transactional.

Despite diversifying its supplier portfolio, Pakistan has important American-made equipment in service and, according to Pakistan analyst Kamal Alam, needs military-specific aid, notably AH-1Z helicopter gunships and special operations equipment to meet counterinsurgency needs.

Though it is fencing the Afghan-Pakistan border to stymie infiltration, the Pakistani military knows American equipment would make this effort more effective, and this may be the primary area of focus for resumed military aid.

Sign up for our Early Bird Brief 
Get the defense industry's most comprehensive news and information straight to your inbox
The military would also like to replace its P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, potentially with the Boeing-made P-8A Poseidon.

Pakistan is also seeking U.S. clearance for RIM-116 missile systems, which would serve as the primary air-defense system for the country’s Ada-class corvettes designed by Turkey. Pakistan “needs a good working relationship with the U.S., regardless of whether it is getting any aid,” Cloughley noted.

Of the rocky relationship between Washington and Islamabad, Trump said Pakistan’s previous leaders did not respect the U.S. or his predecessors in office — presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama. Trump assessed the relationship was on the upswing under himself and Khan, a former sports star who took office in August.

“Pakistan was not doing anything for us, they were really, I think, subversive. They were going against us,” Trump said.

The U.S. announced in January 2018 that it was suspending $900 million of security aid to Pakistan for failing to act against Taliban militants. That included $255 million for Pakistani purchases of American military equipment.

As of Monday morning, the decision remained in effect. But according to a U.S. State Department official, the Trump administration is constantly evaluating the policy, as the president said he might resume aid if warranted by Pakistan’s actions. Trump is also willing to approve specific exceptions to the suspension for programs determined to be in the United States’ national security interest.

Historically, these security assistance programs with Pakistan supported projects for the Pakistan Army, Air Force and Navy, as well as accountability monitoring of American equipment. Those projects were developed with the Pakistani military to support its counterterrorism, counterinsurgency and self-defense requirements, the official said.

Over the past 15 years, Pakistan received roughly $15 billion in Coalition Support Funds meant to reimburse support for U.S. operations; roughly $4 billion in Foreign Military Financing funds used to purchase American equipment; about $1.4 billion in the Pakistan Counterinsurgency Capability Fund to build Pakistan’s counterinsurgency capability; and approximately $52 million in International Military Education and Training funds.

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## WebMaster

doorstar said:


> in works!



In works, and could fall through.. to become a rumor only. It is in the right context, I will let the credibility of the information be judged by the members. Thread title can be changed.. if rumor sounds inappropriate.

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## PakSword

WebMaster said:


> In works, and could fall through.. to become a rumor only. It is in the right context, I will let the credibility of the information be judged by the members. Thread title can be changed.. if rumor sounds inappropriate.


It sounds inappropriate bro.. 

If there is something in the making, and you also have an idea about it, better not call it a rumor..

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## Bratva

I'm going to leave this link here. @Tipu7 Deal will not go through if Pakistan is pushing for russian jets.

*Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countering_America's_Adversaries_Through_Sanctions_Act



Ek banda hai. Zarvan Version 2, Ya Block II keh lein usey. Truck ki batti ke peeche lagaya howa hai us ne sab ko. Aur sab ko bewaqoof aur pagal keh raha hai kio ke uski fragile ego bardashat nahi karte jab us se sawal karo

Us block II ne naya shosha chora hai jis ki waja say poora khayali pakao jo yaha pakaya gaya hai wo mahaz sirf ek mazaq hai

Coming back to my original point, F-16 block imaginary deal is not gonna happen. Why ? Because of CAASTA. Why CAASTA? I'll leave it to informed members who will soon come to know another "Truck ki batti" rumor.

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## ali_raza

Bratva said:


> I'm going to leave this link here. @Tipu7 Deal will not go through if Pakistan is pushing for russian jets.
> 
> *Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act*
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countering_America's_Adversaries_Through_Sanctions_Act
> 
> 
> 
> Ek banda hai. Zarvan Version 2, Ya Block II keh lein usey. Truck ki batti ke peeche lagaya howa hai us ne sab ko. Aur sab ko bewaqoof aur pagal keh raha hai kio ke uski fragile ego bardashat nahi karte jab us se sawal karo
> 
> Us block II ne naya shosha chora hai jis ki waja say poora khayali pakao jo yaha pakaya gaya hai wo mahaz sirf ek mazaq hai
> 
> Coming back to my original point, F-16 block imaginary deal is not gonna happen. Why ? Because of CAASTA. Why CAASTA? I'll leave it to informed members who will come to know another "Truck ki batti" rumor.


bro i heard real players r gathering in some place to sign something 
i guess ur beloved qatar was reduced to actually being a waitress

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## Ra's al Ghul

Bratva said:


> I'm going to leave this link here. @Tipu7 Deal will not go through if Pakistan is pushing for russian jets.
> 
> *Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act*
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countering_America's_Adversaries_Through_Sanctions_Act
> 
> 
> 
> Ek banda hai. Zarvan Version 2, Ya Block II keh lein usey. Truck ki batti ke peeche lagaya howa hai us ne sab ko. Aur sab ko bewaqoof aur pagal keh raha hai kio ke uski fragile ego bardashat nahi karte jab us se sawal karo
> 
> Us block II ne naya shosha chora hai jis ki waja say poora khayali pakao jo yaha pakaya gaya hai wo mahaz sirf ek mazaq hai
> 
> Coming back to my original point, F-16 block imaginary deal is not gonna happen. Why ? Because of CAASTA. Why CAASTA? I'll leave it to informed members who will soon come to know another "Truck ki batti" rumor.



sorry but its a noob question. since when we are looking to get russian jets ? i never heard of it. except the rumor of su-35s. it was hoax. and i dont think so we are going to buy any russian jets in future. only chinese.


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## Bratva

ali_raza said:


> bro i heard real players r gathering in some place to sign something
> i guess ur beloved qatar was reduced to actually being a waitress



Use burnol or better avoid any news related to qatar to reduce your BP and any heart related problems.

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## Khafee

ali_raza said:


> bro i heard real players r gathering in some place to sign something
> i guess ur beloved qatar was reduced to actually being a waitress

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## Bratva

Ra's al Ghul said:


> sorry but its a noob question.* since when we are looking to get russian jets* ? i never heard of it. except the rumor of su-35s. it was hoax. and i dont think so we are going to buy any russian jets in future. only chinese.



Give it some time, You will come to know about this brand new truck ki batti soon

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## Ra's al Ghul

Bratva said:


> Give it some time, You will come to know about this brand new truck ki batti soon



ok.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think we should list incoming asset thread only if it is officially released
i.e Military announces it or information is released in news.

Releasing info a bit early (as rumor) , may allow counter lobbies to get activated
Breaking stuff ideally should come from Military Press release

Alot of confusion around what is coming

a) F16V
b) 35-35
c) Mirage Used asset from Egypt
d) Just Block III JF17
e) Just Block 2B
f) Qatri Mirage 2000
g) All of above

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## 8 pass charlie

every time I come here hoping to see some good news some confirmed deal news whatever but something solid.but just dissapointment.

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## TsAr

The thread owner has shared a news with us in all sincerity. Remember that such deals take time and effort to mature and can break down even after they are signed.
Prime example is Turkey and F-35 deal. They were involved in the R&d of the project and were supposed to be one of the first countries to get them but the deal broke down.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well scoops are always fun and exciting no doubt and of course we all want the best items for PAF

Defense deals are always a steady and long process, which involves various variables
It is best to enjoy the story after Military formally discloses what they decided


With that stated the F16V story / rumor / interest , is the top interest story on forum


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## Zarmeena Rashad

With how the things went out here , I doubt anyone will ever share anything again.Let us all thank the pessimists & naysayers for there efforts.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Defense purchased are typically close guarded item , as negotiations take time for xyz weapon
It is better habbit to announce deal once something is signed


MOU
Contract
News Release

*Example: *
I think when we first heard about Turkish Milgem rumors and when deal was actually finalized it was few years

Compared to that when we first heard about Damen Ships the deal was signed and we were like wow , now that is what I am talking about , action and announcement, discussion threads opened up after the deal closed , and people started to talk about the item once it was 99.9% certain we are actually getting it


Typically the scoop/breaking stuff on pdf, comes together with formal release

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## Bratva

TsAr said:


> The thread owner has shared a news with us in all sincerity. Remember that such deals take time and effort to mature and can break down even after they are signed.
> Prime example is Turkey and F-35 deal. They were involved in the R&d of the project and were supposed to be one of the first countries to get them but the deal broke down.



Remember how Pakistan F-16 Block 52 deal fell through due to Strong Indian lobby and hostile American senators ? Remember how Khawaja asif loose lips sinked the Pakistani Ship in FATF second round where it was grey listed? 

Zarvan been doing the same thing over and over again. How many times he shared the SU-35 news and FN SCAR news? The Pakistani army evaluated and wasted every one time for 2-3 years in search of a new gun. And didn't went through because lack of funds. The gun manufactures were rightly pissed at PA

It's not about the sincerity but the conviction with which the claims were/are being made as if deal if finalized and condescending attitude that comes along with it.

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## TsAr

Bratva said:


> Remember how Pakistan F-16 Block 52 deal fell through due to Strong Indian lobby and hostile American senators ? Remember how Khawaja asif loose lips sinked the Pakistani Ship in FATF second round where it was grey listed?
> 
> Zarvan been doing the same thing over and over again. How many times he shared the SU-35 news and FN SCAR news? The Pakistani army evaluated and wasted every one time for 2-3 years in search of a new gun. And didn't went through because lack of funds. The gun manufactures were rightly pissed at PA
> 
> It's not about the sincerity but the conviction with which the claims were/are being made as if deal if finalized and condescending attitude that comes along with it.


I understand what you are trying to say, this is an open forum and the whole point is to have discussion and consider every possibility. Now when the deal for planes was being discussed in the no one could have thought or imagined that a catastrophic earthquake would struck Pakistan.
About FN-scar, it was tested and short listed but could not see the light due to successive inept governments.It is no way Zarvan's fault, he just shared some news on the forum. People bash him like he owes them something.
Who would have thought that US would refuse F-35 to Turkey or Russia would sell S-400 system to them even after Turkey shot down their pla e over Syria.
My whole point here is that we can discuss the merits or demerits of the news and give our point of view, but members here take things personally and start bashing. Everyone should have a right to agree or disagree.
Peace.

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## Signalian

Bratva said:


> Remember how Pakistan F-16 Block 52 deal fell through due to Strong Indian lobby and hostile American senators ?


Pakistan's enemies started to exist the day Pakistan was born. The Indian lobby has been there since the birth of Pakistan, hostile US senators have always been there (1960's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's). Its not like Pakistan doesn't have enemies. Blaming others will get Pakistan nowhere. Own diplomatic methods should be solid enough to make deals or avoid getting trapped. I won't point fingers at anyone inside Pakistan also, not at CAS or COAS or PM; leaderships changed in all countries (Pakistan, India and USA) since early 2000's. PAF wanted jets under military aid conditions at discounted price, USA wasn't willing anymore. Diplomatic approach of Pakistan did not produce any results, maybe due to vested interests, maybe due to conflict of stances in Pakistaní leadership regarding USA demands.

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## TsAr

Signalian said:


> Pakistan's enemies started to exist the day Pakistan was born. The Indian lobby has been there since the birth of Pakistan, hostile US senators have always been there (1960's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's). Its not like Pakistan doesn't have enemies. Blaming others will get Pakistan nowhere. Own diplomatic methods should be solid enough to make deals or avoid getting trapped. I won't point fingers at anyone inside Pakistan also, not at CAS or COAS or PM; leaderships changed in all countries (Pakistan, India and USA) since early 2000's. PAF wanted jets under military aid conditions at discounted price, USA wasn't willing anymore. Diplomatic approach of Pakistan did not produce any results, maybe due to vested interests, maybe due to conflict of stances in Pakistaní leadership regarding USA demands.


I still feel that the environment is conducive for Pakistan to strike a deal for the F-16 with US. Trump thinks more like a buainessman, if Pakistan can cough up cash they will surely sell us the planes.

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## Signalian

TsAr said:


> I still feel that the environment is conducive for Pakistan to strike a deal for the F-16 with US. Trump thinks more like a buainessman, if Pakistan can cough up cash they will surely sell us the planes.


Paying cash upfront and paying full payment will obviously make the deal go through. 
Pakistan has suffered losses in WOT whereas USA is not delivering what its promised. This is where the issue starts and stands.

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## TsAr

Signalian said:


> Paying cash upfront and paying full payment will obviously make the deal go through.
> Pakistan has suffered losses in WOT whereas USA is not delivering what its promised. This is where the issue starts and stands.


Us thinks PK did not do enough and PK thinks US has always deserted it. There is lack of trust between both the parties and rightly so.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

For this deal to Materialize the financial release of 10 billion from USA to Pakistan would be the first bench mark any purchase from that fund is secondary

It would be better option to release the fund and get it transferred to Pakistan's foreign reserve and then decide on appropriate way to get F16

F16 C/D or F16V depending on price etc

We could get a decent deal to just get the funds released , and then purchase some block C/D which are retiring or are Surplus assets. The price on these would be appropriate


Option A: F16V Expensive deal *E*_*xpensive, But a **noticeable** upgrade not quite F35*_
Option B: F16 C/D New (18 Planes) renew of interest in old deal  *Cheaper*
Option C : F16 C/D (Purchase 50 from European Clients or US surplus ) *Cheapest*


*The refurbishment of F16 C/D in past from Turkey worked out well *


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## Trailer23

Bratva said:


> Remember how Pakistan F-16 Block 52 deal fell through due to Strong Indian lobby and hostile American senators ?


Remember who was running the Country at the time?

If memory serves that same fool reading a story to Obama in the White House like someone asking meds at a drug store. Coincidentally, that same idiot also had the Ministry of Foreign Affairs all to himself. So bringing up past f-ups felons isn't valid.

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## WebMaster

Signalian said:


> Paying cash upfront and paying full payment will obviously make the deal go through.
> Pakistan has suffered losses in WOT whereas USA is not delivering what its promised. This is where the issue starts and stands.


Agreed. Trump will sell anything at the right price. Does Pakistan have the cash? Probably not at this time. We have other priorities.


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## Signalian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> For this deal to Materialize the financial release of 10 billion from USA to Pakistan would be the first bench mark any purchase from that fund is secondary
> 
> It would be better option to release the fund and get it transferred to Pakistan's foreign reserve and then decide on appropriate way to get F16
> 
> F16 C/D or F16V depending on price etc
> 
> We could get a decent deal to just get the funds released , and then purchase some block C/D which are retiring or are Surplus assets. The price on these would be appropriate
> 
> 
> Option A: F16V Expensive deal *E*_*xpensive, But a **noticeable** upgrade not quite F35*_
> Option B: F16 C/D New (18 Planes) renew of interest in old deal  *Cheaper*
> Option C : F16 C/D (Purchase 50 from European Clients or US surplus ) *Cheapest*


Get new F-16's whether Block 52+ or 70. 
Its better to produce more JF-17's than used F-16's (A/B/C/D) for the same amount of money. 





> *The refurbishment of F16 C/D in past from Turkey worked out well *


A/B

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## ali_raza

Bratva said:


> Use burnol or better avoid any news related to qatar to reduce your BP and any heart related problems.


haiiiin 
ooo bhai logic wali bat kro
why qatar no where when talib deal is happening i told u long ago ur country is like a waitress nothing more 
real player were different

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## Signalian

WebMaster said:


> Agreed. Trump will sell anything at the right price. Does Pakistan have the cash? Probably not at this time. We have other priorities.


Pakistan needs an expert negotiator at top level of Government.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

10 Billion is a large sum , the fund we are owed under coalition support funding could be applied in many areas instead of just investing in F16V deal

We could use 15% of that funding for buying refurbished F16 C/D

If F16 C/D is available from USA surplus , reserve storage , it is cheaper and better alternative for our regional Asia zone

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## Signalian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 10 Billion is a large sum , the fund we are owed under coalition support funding could be applied in many areas instead of just investing in F16V deal
> 
> We could use 15% of that funding for buying refurbished F16 C/D
> 
> If F16 C/D is available from USA surplus , reserve storage , it is cheaper and better alternative for our regional Asia zone


you will need to spend more and more $$$ on every used F-16 bought.

do you know why ?

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wonder, if at some point, it's a question of diminishing returns.
> 
> Not once, not even in 1999, has there been a fight with such level of qualitative parity in the modern missile age.
> 
> You have two air forces with AEW&C networked BVR assets, and that too in the hundreds on both sides. Be it an F-16 or JF-17, the point is to lob a BVRAAM with a sufficiently good hit probability. So, I wonder, as far as the PAF is now concerned is having more F-16s worth it when for that price they can get a better BVRAAM (e.g., PL-15) and a lot more JF-17s to carry them.
> 
> If anything, I'm not as concerned about the A2A as much as AAD. So, the S-400 could make high-altitude SOW deployments tougher, even from our own side of the border. We'd have to fly lower and, as a result, the glide-based SOWs (H-2, H-4, REK, etc) might lose range, and we'll need to build-up on ALCMs.



This is where advances in electronic warfare will be the next decisive capability to combat the enemy's integrated air defense networks, and beyond that will be stealth or at least much reduce RCS.


BTW;
Aren't the F-16's Block 70/72 the only new ones being produced by Lockheed martin? If so, then either the Block 70/72 could be sold, or used F-16s. New Block 52s are no longer being available from Lockheed Martin.

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## Super Falcon

Tipu7 said:


> They did.
> Mirages managed to sneak away, however Jf17s came under fire but ditched them successfully.
> View attachment 576778
> 
> 
> 
> Block 70 not available for Pakistan.
> Downgraded variant is on offer with hafty price tag, thus we are not interested.


Why these stupids jump to illetrate confusions fact is we are getting downgraded blocks of F 16 and missiles which we chose are in second class


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## Ark_Angel

Hello Everyone. Have been following this discussion in a passive mode since quite sometime but after seeing a lot of frustration from some members here just want to put some rumours to rest and some clarity in the minds of members. Coming from a reliable source PAF is looking at 36+/- SU-35s as the F-16 V upgrade program is hitting snags due to Unrealistic US offer. SU-35s have been on offer since 2016 were evaluated in 2017 along with an offer on Mig-35s. Initial number to be procured is being looked at 8-18 Jets. And will be increased Incrementally. @Khafee

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## Sinnerman108

Can we please request @Zarvan to qualify the threads he made regarding russian equipment ?

@WebMaster can we close those threads please hope with a last post from Zarvan.


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## Trango Towers

Signalian said:


> Pakistan needs an expert negotiator at top level of Government.


Do u really want sanctions again.

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## Shabi1

Ark_Angel said:


> Hello Everyone. Have been following this discussion in a passive mode since quite sometime but after seeing a lot of frustration from some members here just want to put some rumours to rest and some clarity in the minds of members. Coming from a reliable source PAF is looking at 36+/- SU-35s as the F-16 V upgrade program is hitting snags due to Unrealistic US offer. SU-35s have been on offer since 2016 were evaluated in 2017 along with an offer on Mig-35s. Initial number to be procured is being looked at 8-18 Jets. And will be increased Incrementally. @Khafee


SU-35 is a beast but hope we can take the Chinese route for munitions and only feasible if PAF allowed to integrate own choice of weapons. Don´t prefer Russian AA missiles.

Keeping SU-35 option open could be a way of countering US hard balling on F-16s.

Because of finances would prefer upgrades for existing or used F-16s to F-16V. New F-16 Blk-70 will be very expensive.


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## Bratva

Ark_Angel said:


> Hello Everyone. Have been following this discussion in a passive mode since quite sometime but after seeing a lot of frustration from some members here just want to put some rumours to rest and some clarity in the minds of members. Coming from a reliable source PAF is looking at 36+/- SU-35s as the F-16 V upgrade program is hitting snags due to Unrealistic US offer. SU-35s have been on offer since 2016 were evaluated in 2017 along with an offer on Mig-35s. Initial number to be procured is being looked at 8-18 Jets. And will be increased Incrementally. @Khafee



What about CAASTA ? Turkey got kicked out of F-35 program due to CAASTA, America is threatening India with CAASTA for S-400. Another Irani Gas Pipeline type fiasco in making.



Shabi1 said:


> SU-35 is a beast but hope we can take the Chinese route for munitions and only feasible if PAF allowed to integrate own choice of weapons. Don´t prefer Russian AA missiles.
> 
> *Keeping SU-35 option open could be a way of countering US hard balling on F-16s.*
> 
> Because of finances would prefer upgrades for existing or used F-16s to F-16V. New F-16 Blk-70 will be very expensive.



If we are going for SU-35. Forget the F-16. Even existing support for F-16's will be at risk due to CAASTA sanctions. Do you think Pakistan is ready for CAASTA when it is heavily dependent on IMF as of now ?

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## Ark_Angel

Shabi1 said:


> SU-35 is a beast but hope we can take the Chinese route for munitions and only feasible if PAF allowed to integrate own choice of weapons. Don´t prefer Russian AA missiles.
> 
> Keeping SU-35 option open could be a way of countering US hard balling on F-16s.
> 
> Because of finances would prefer upgrades for existing or used F-16s to F-16V. New F-16 Blk-70 will be very expensive.


Only Russian AAMs allowed as of Yet. PAF requested for a radar change(AESA) which the Russians rejected. Ruskies haven’t allowed PLAAF to integrate their own AAMs as of yet on 35s...

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## Shabi1

Bratva said:


> What about CAASTA ? Turkey got kicked out of F-35 program due to CAASTA, America is threatening India with CAASTA for S-400. Another Irani Gas Pipeline type fiasco in making.
> 
> 
> 
> If we are going for SU-35. Forget the F-16. Even existing support for F-16's will be at risk due to CAASTA sanctions. Do you think Pakistan is ready for CAASTA when it is heavily dependent on IMF as of now ?



Iran gas pipeline is being revived and Turks got sanctioned off of F-35 of US concerns for S-400/F-35 proximity. Personally I think Turks did it deliberately to get out of a over expensive jet program.
US hasnt sanctioned any country for jet purchases from Russia yet, they are selective of CAASTA.

Nevertheless Im not a fan of SU-35 and prefer the F-16s. SU-35 doesnt make sense when there are J-10C and J-11/16 for heavy aircraft options.

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## Ark_Angel

Bratva said:


> What about CAASTA ? Turkey got kicked out of F-35 program due to CAASTA, America is threatening India with CAASTA for S-400. Another Irani Gas Pipeline type fiasco in making.
> Multiple Options Being looked into. Possibly Indonesian modus operandi of payment is being considered.
> 
> 
> If we are going for SU-35. Forget the F-16. Even existing support for F-16's will be at risk due to CAASTA sanctions. Do you think Pakistan is ready for CAASTA when it is heavily dependent on IMF as of now ?


SU-35s(Talks ongoing) only if Americans V Upgrade and Birds don’t materialise.

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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> SU-35s(Talks ongoing) only if Americans V Upgrade and Birds don’t materialise.


 forget Su-35 @Ark_Angel

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## Ark_Angel

pakistanipower said:


> forget Su-35 @Ark_Angel


Would love To. Not a Sukhoi fan anyways.

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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> Would love To. Not a Sukhoi fan anyways.


It to early to assume that Russians would give big ticket items to Pakistan we just starts our warm relations with Russia, its takes time to build a trust between Russia and Pakistan, and also don't forget Indian lobby in Russian doma and also we have currently short of $$$ and Russian wants a hard cash not like that we lots of Weapons from USA on CSF funds or from the soft loans from China @Ark_Angel


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## Imran Khan

this thread is paradise of day dreamers

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## Ultima Thule

Imran Khan said:


> this thread is paradise of day dreamers


ok then why you are here

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## Imran Khan

pakistanipower said:


> ok then why you are here


i am here to watch how dreamers are doing  some people pass by grave yards daily its not mean they are there for dying

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## Ultima Thule

Imran Khan said:


> i am here to watch how dreamers are doing  some people pass by grave yards daily its not mean they are there for dying


everything is possible in this world USA need pakistan to get out of Afghanistan and USA also want a balance between India and Pakistan in the term of military tech


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## Imran Khan

pakistanipower said:


> everything is possible in this world USA need pakistan to get out of Afghanistan and USA also want a balance between India and Pakistan in the term of military tech


yes i have seen what we got from USA in last 5 years . oppppps nothing at all


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## untitled

Imran Khan said:


> this thread is paradise of day dreamers


Paradise. Interesting choice of word. Until now I believed that haven and heaven meant the same thing. Nope. There is a difference

Difference between haven and heaven

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## Ark_Angel

pakistanipower said:


> It to early to assume that Russians would give big ticket items to Pakistan we just starts our warm relations with Russia, its takes time to build a trust between Russia and Pakistan, and also don't forget Indian lobby in Russian doma and also we have currently short of $$$ and Russian wants a hard cash not like that we lots of Weapons from USA on CSF funds or from the soft loans from China @Ark_Angel


Can’t tell all the details here but it’s not as black and white as you’re presuming it to be. There are lots of Factors involved which might make it go through. As far as finances are concerned can’t comment on it but PAF already has the green light for their new toys. Then There is a Typhoon offer on the table and so is an FC-20 offer. But the prime aim is getting the V upgrade but it’s frustrating for the PAF keeping in View how dicey these Yanks get! Where’s @Khafee He should have been here on the thread

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## Ultima Thule

Imran Khan said:


> yes i have seen what we got from USA in last 5 years . oppppps nothing at all


thanks to the traitor of Pakistan NAWAZ, its our mistakes to dialogue rather then their deny


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## Ark_Angel

Shabi1 said:


> Iran gas pipeline is being revived and Turks got sanctioned off of F-35 of US concerns for S-400/F-35 proximity. Personally I think Turks did it deliberately to get out of a over expensive jet program.
> US hasnt sanctioned any country for jet purchases from Russia yet, they are selective of CAASTA.
> 
> Nevertheless Im not a fan of SU-35 and prefer the F-16s. SU-35 doesnt make sense when there are J-10C and J-11/16 for heavy aircraft options.


No J-11/16 options available. Fan boys need to get this thing right.



Imran Khan said:


> yes i have seen what we got from USA in last 5 years . oppppps nothing at all


Nothing was expected. IKs visit has given a ray of Hope, as have been assurances from the Kushner Lobby in DC.


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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> Can’t tell all the details here but it’s not as black and white as you’re presuming it to be. There are lots of Factors involved which might make it go through. As far as finances are concerned can’t comment on it but PAF already has the green light for their new toys. Then There is a Typhoon offer on the table and so is an FC-20 offer. But the prime aim is getting the V upgrade but it’s frustrating for the PAF keeping in View how dicey these Yanks get! Where’s @Khafee He should have been here on the thread


Typhoon extremely expensive 150+ million $$$, J-10 already rejected by PAF on technical bases, And how about MIG-35 it is cheaper than Su-35 and Russia would like sell it and not problem for India @Ark_Angel


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## PurpleButcher

*IF* SU-35 is being considered, is it being considered only for Naval Aviation wing or for PAF in general?


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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> No J-11/16 options available. Fan boys need to get this thing right.


China can't export J-11/J-16 because design is RUSSIAN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY (based on Su-27/Su30 air frame) when deal were happening with Russia, Russian put clause that Chinese will not Sell Su-30/Su-27 and its variants to third parties @Ark_Angel


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## untitled

Ark_Angel said:


> so is an FC-20 offer.


If this offer comes with local assembly/production. I say take it and run


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## Ultima Thule

PurpleButcher said:


> *IF* SU-35 is being considered, is it being considered only for Naval Aviation wing or for PAF in general?


I thinks for both, it multi role jet you know bro


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## Ark_Angel

pakistanipower said:


> Typhoon extremely expensive 150+ million $$$, J-10 already rejected by PAF on technical bases, And how about MIG-35 it is cheaper than Su-35 and Russia would like sell it and not problem for India @Ark_Angel


Agin False Assumptions. J-10C is a beast in Air. And has respect with in the fighter community. PAF has never rejected it(still the best/realistic option by Far). Only issue is keeping in view Priorities. V upgrade is the First and all focus is on that. SU-35 or Euro due to dual engine nature of the fighter and an major capability boost(read Payload and Electronics) as Future(read AZM) is Dual and new TTPs are to be designed for that.



pakistanipower said:


> I thinks for both, it multi role jet you know bro


No Naval AVN Wing is in process. Navy only to rely on Fixed wing/rotors.



member.exe said:


> If this offer comes with local assembly/production. I say take it and run


No local assembly. $$$$$ is a scarce and a valuable resource. You don’t go for local production/assembly for every damn bird. Your hands are full with Thunder already!

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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> Agin False Assumptions. J-10C is a beast in Air. And has respect with in the fighter community. PAF has never rejected it(still the best/realistic option by Far). Only issue is keeping in view Priorities. V upgrade is the First and all focus is on that. SU-35 or Euro due to dual engine nature of the fighter and an major capability boost(read Payload and Electronics) as Future(read AZM) is Dual and new TTPs are to be designed for that.


We are using J-10C tech on our upcoming Block-3 JF-17 so what is the difference though with exception of range/payload what is the difference tell me and JF-17 project using J-10 tech from day one , Su-35/EF-2000 is extremely expensive, 80-150+ million $$$, whereas MIG-35 has price tag of 45 million $$$ and its also have 2 engine @Ark_Angel


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## untitled

Ark_Angel said:


> You don’t go for local production/assembly for every damn bird.


Irrespective of it's production method this is an aircraft (J10) PAF should have been flying right now rather than considering


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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> No Naval AVN Wing is in process. Navy only to rely on Fixed wing/rotors.


So i saying that currently NAVAL fixed wing have Mirages (currently in transition of being replace by JF-17), P-3C/ATR-72/CN-235 MPA and lots of light transport aircraft etc, if we will get Su-35 its used on scenarios ( NAVAL and DEEP STRIKE BY PAF INTO ENEMY TERRITORY) @Ark_Angel


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## Ark_Angel

pakistanipower said:


> We are using J-10C tech on our upcoming Block-3 JF-17 so what is the difference though with exception of range/payload what is the difference tell me and JF-17 project using J-10 tech from day one , Su-35/EF-2000 is extremely expensive, 80-150+ million $$$, whereas MIG-35 has price tag of 45 million $$$ and its also have 2 engine @Ark_Angel


J-10C offers something which currently PAF lacks. Time(read: Readily Aval Platform/Mature/Numbers) AESA radar and VLAAMs. Block 3 is still under dev phase while the req is Urgent. Moreover it’s also a false assumption that J-10C tech makes way to Thunder. They are 2 separate birds. Chinese are not bound to share anything with us. It’s only the Req. Req is forwarded and they respond with their own Firms. From electronics to all else JF-17 has a different eco system altogether.

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## Dubious

TsAr said:


> The thread owner has shared a news with us in all sincerity. Remember that such deals take time and effort to mature and can break down even after they are signed.
> Prime example is Turkey and F-35 deal. They were involved in the R&d of the project and were supposed to be one of the first countries to get them but the deal broke down.


Bloody nation is impatient as anything...

Children of kings don't know a thing about diplomacy and real world....how deals are made, how long the journey and the ups and downs

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## Beethoven

Ark_Angel said:


> J-10C offers something which currently PAF lacks. Time(read: Readily Aval Platform/Mature/Numbers) AESA radar and VLAAMs. Block 3 is still under dev phase while the req is Urgent. Moreover it’s also a false assumption that J-10C tech makes way to Thunder. They are 2 separate birds. Chinese are not bound to share anything with us. It’s only the Req. Req is forwarded and they respond with their own Firms. From electronics to all else JF-17 has a different eco system altogether.


First of all thank you for your valuable contribution to PDF...members like yourself and @Khafee make the forum worthwhile to visit...just wanted to know how would you rate a J10C against a V upgraded F16...Thanks

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## Ark_Angel

pakistanipower said:


> So i saying that currently NAVAL fixed wing have Mirages (currently in transition of being replace by JF-17), P-3C/ATR-72/CN-235 MPA and lots of light transport aircraft etc, if we will get Su-35 its used on scenarios ( NAVAL and DEEP STRIKE BY PAF INTO ENEMY TERRITORY) @Ark_Angel





Beethoven said:


> First of all thank you for your valuable contribution to PDF...members like yourself and @Khafee make the forum worthwhile to visit...just wanted to know how would you rate a J10C against a V upgraded F16...Thanks


Depends on the load out. J-10C with the new EW Pod and PL-15s can lob at anything that comes its way.

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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> J-10C offers something which currently PAF lacks. Time(read: Readily Aval Platform/Mature/Numbers) AESA radar and VLAAMs. Block 3 is still under dev phase while the req is Urgent. Moreover it’s also a false assumption that J-10C tech makes way to Thunder. They are 2 separate birds. Chinese are not bound to share anything with us. It’s only the Req. Req is forwarded and they respond with their own Firms. From electronics to all else JF-17 has a different eco system altogether.


Ask the professional members here JF-17 Block-1/2 uses tech from J-10A based on JL-10 radar and avionics of J-10A, you can't changed the fact that JF-17 Block/2 is using miniaturize J-10A radar/Avionics tech, and same expected for Block-3 might have been Radar/Avionics from J-10C (mostly expected) @Ark_Angel



Ark_Angel said:


> VLAAMs


And VLAAM is not suited for J-10 to long/heavy to be carried, Chinese not even considering to put put on J-20 but in for J-11/J-16s @Ark_Angel


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## Ark_Angel

pakistanipower said:


> Ask the professional members here JF-17 Block-1/2 uses tech from J-10A based on JL-10 radar and avionics of J-10A, you can't changed the fact that JF-17 Block/2 is using miniaturize J-10A radar/Avionics tech, and same expected for Block-3 might have been Radar/Avionics from J-10C (mostly expected) @Ark_Angel
> Sharing tech is a very subjective term. It has a different eco system.
> 
> And VLAAM is not suited for J-10 to long/heavy to be carried, Chinese not even considering to put put on J-20 but in for J-11/J-16s @Ark_Angel


For VLAAM read AAM(PL-15)


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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> For VLAAM read AAM(PL-15)


No this a misconception for lot of peoples VLAAM and PL-15 are 2 different missiles, PL-15 has a range of 150-200 Km simlar to AIM-120D/ AMRAAM C-7 or retired AIM-154 Phoenix, and main target for PL-15 to destroy Fighter jets

As for VLAAM has a range of 400 km similar to various Russian project in 90s like K-172/R-37 Arrow, and its main target will be AWACS/TANKERS/ISR aircraft @Ark_Angel

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## Ark_Angel

pakistanipower said:


> No this a misconception for lot of peoples VLAAM and PL-15 are 2 different missiles, PL-15 has a range of 150-200 Km simlar to AIM-120D/ AMRAAM C-7 or retired AIM-154 Phoenix, and main target for PL-15 to destroy Fighter jets
> 
> As for VLAAM has a range of 400 km similar to various Russian project in 90s like K-172/R-37 Arrow, and its main target will be AWACS/TANKERS/ISR aircraft @Ark_Angel


Exactly. VL was omitted to AAM only.


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## Ultima Thule

Ark_Angel said:


> Exactly. VL was omitted to AAM only.


What do you mean @Ark_Angel


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## Ark_Angel

pakistanipower said:


> What do you mean @Ark_Angel


Typo.


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## Ultima Thule

did you mean VLAAM is get rid of BVRAAM then you're wrong both are complimentary to each other @Ark_Angel


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## Tipu7

Khafee said:


> Blk 70/72 without Aesa = Blk52+


Yup, the same package which was once offered few years back during Sohail Aman times.
But there is difference in 'finalizing a deal' and 'initiation of negotiations'. 
Yes Blk70/72 were negotiated, but no progress was made as Americans were willing not to offer any tech, and that too with military funds support, which could 'disturb' the regional power balance.


Bratva said:


> I'm going to leave this link here. @Tipu7 Deal will not go through if Pakistan is pushing for russian jets.
> 
> *Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act*
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countering_America's_Adversaries_Through_Sanctions_Act
> 
> 
> 
> Ek banda hai. Zarvan Version 2, Ya Block II keh lein usey. Truck ki batti ke peeche lagaya howa hai us ne sab ko. Aur sab ko bewaqoof aur pagal keh raha hai kio ke uski fragile ego bardashat nahi karte jab us se sawal karo
> 
> Us block II ne naya shosha chora hai jis ki waja say poora khayali pakao jo yaha pakaya gaya hai wo mahaz sirf ek mazaq hai
> 
> Coming back to my original point, F-16 block imaginary deal is not gonna happen. Why ? Because of CAASTA. Why CAASTA? I'll leave it to informed members who will soon come to know another "Truck ki batti" rumor.


Definitely, if Su35 is on card then no more F16s or any other relevant equipment for Pakistan. Being an operative of sufficient size of American hardware, Pakistan cannot afford sanctions under the regulations of CAATSA.
PAF is itself split into two group of thoughts, one with more pro Western approach demanding more 'surplus' airframes instead of any Asian counterpart, and other one is inclined towards Asian market. And each group is attempting to generate pressure, rumors of Blk70 and Su35 are part of it.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I heard their are almost *1,000 *Surplus US F16, we just need 40-50 Surplus crafts with
Block C/D upgrade

Many European countries also selling F16 A/B

F16 Block C/D has served us well so far why break the bank ?
10 Billion Coalition Support funds

2 Billion to acquire 45 Block C/D surplus crafts from USA , Used crafts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 Billion Transferred to Army / Navy / Air-force
APC purchase , Corvette Purchase , Transport craft purchase, SAM batteries

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## aliyusuf

Khafee said:


> Both points of yours = Chawwal


Hey @Khafee Sahib, I love to eat chawwal. Please use some other term.

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## Khafee

aliyusuf said:


> Hey @Khafee Sahib, I love to eat chawwal. Please use some other term.


Bonggian- good enough?

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## Signalian

Trango Towers said:


> Do u really want sanctions again.


sanctions helped build JF-17, AK, Local MLRS and lots of other stuff.

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## VCheng

Interesting to see the title amended after so many pages of "discussion" over a mere rumor.

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## aliyusuf

Khafee said:


> Bonggian- good enough?


Perfect.

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## Trango Towers

Signalian said:


> sanctions helped build JF-17, AK, Local MLRS and lots of other stuff.


Yes...so dont buy stuff that will be be a waste...use the money to build the industry that is fruitful.



VCheng said:


> Interesting to see the title amended after so many pages of "discussion" over a mere rumor.


Because now even the mods realise this is just hot air. No substance to the story


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## Maxpane

Khafee said:


> Bonggian- good enough?


sir g ap samjh gaye main kia keh raha tha

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## Signalian

Trango Towers said:


> Yes...so dont buy stuff that will be be a waste...use the money to build the industry that is fruitful.


New F-16's bring new tech with them especially radar and pods along with range almost equal to Block 52+

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## Trango Towers

Signalian said:


> New F-16's bring new tech with them especially radar and pods along with range almost equal to Block 52+


Oh dear. Good luck


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## Signalian

Maxpane said:


> sir g ap samjh gaye main kia keh raha tha


yeah he understands code language of all sorts.



Trango Towers said:


> Oh dear. Good luck


Thanks - need that for someone who can play diplomatic cards on international level...someone on lines of James Donovan



Khafee said:


> Both points of yours = Chawwal / Bonggian


Thank you - no signs of SU35 here ? You could have made Zarvan proud of himself after all



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I heard their are almost *1,000 *Surplus US F16, we just need 40-50 Surplus crafts with
> Block C/D upgrade
> 
> Many European countries also selling F16 A/B
> 
> F16 Block C/D has served us well so far why break the bank ?
> 10 Billion Coalition Support funds
> 
> 2 Billion to acquire 45 Block C/D surplus crafts from USA , Used crafts
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 8 Billion Transferred to Army / Navy / Air-force
> APC purchase , Corvette Purchase , Transport craft purchase, SAM batteries


10 Billion USD - make universities and start R&D funding in all domains on national level.

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## Arsalan

WebMaster said:


> Changing the thread title appropriately.


FINALLY! 

Thank you.

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## ARMalik

So from the topic of buying F-16s, someone decides to add buying SU-35s from Russia as well .... great!


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## Signalian

Khafee said:


> No more "Khafee Leaks" for this forum. Anyone interested can google "Khafee Senior Moderator"


ufffff - class act hahahahaha 

I am hoping for Aim-9x


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## Ultima Thule

ARMalik said:


> So from the topic of buying F-16s, someone decides to add buying SU-35s from Russia as well .... great!


No possibility for buying Su-35 from Russia this false rumor spread by HAZRAT @Zarvan few years back

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## Flight of falcon

Looks like a great strategic game being played out ....

Pakistan needs top of the line USA equipment but USA is hesitant so we are saying that’s fine we are going to Russia...

Russians want Indians to buy their planes so they are saying if you don’t buy our planes we will offer them to Pakistan instead.

My bet is on the Americans. Russians will not sell us their top of the line equipment and jeprodize their relationship with India who is the largest buyer of their equipment in the world . Everyone here is bluffing...

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## denel

Signalian said:


> ufffff - class act hahahahaha
> 
> I am hoping for Aim-9x


Nope time to diversify and get A-Darters.

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## Signalian

denel said:


> Nope time to diversify and get A-Darters.


compatible with F-16's ?

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## denel

Signalian said:


> compatible with F-16's ?


Yes it uses same bus and can easily be integrated across f-16s but also JF-17s/J-7PG/M3/5.

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## Khafee

denel said:


> Yes it uses same bus and can easily be integrated across f-16s but also JF-17s/J-7PG/M3/5.


@Oscar Comments pls.....


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## ali_raza

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think we should list incoming asset thread only if it is officially released
> i.e Military announces it or information is released in news.
> 
> Releasing info a bit early (as rumor) , may allow counter lobbies to get activated
> Breaking stuff ideally should come from Military Press release
> 
> Alot of confusion around what is coming
> 
> a) F16V
> b) 35-35
> c) Mirage Used asset from Egypt
> d) Just Block III JF17
> e) Just Block 2B
> f) Qatri Mirage 2000
> g) All of above


35-36

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## Zarvan

Imran Khan was not just at PAF to have some good past time. He went there to give approval of few projects including procurement of some Jets I don't know which ones. Pakistan is desperate. We need to answer Rafael. Also in my opinion the moment we order SU-35 if we do order those, we would get lot of pressure from USA to buy at least one squadron of BLOCK 60 or 72. Also what I am hearing is USA want Pakistan to release proof of shooting down of SU-30.

@Sinnerman108 @Bratva @Path-Finder @Khafee

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Imran Khan was not just at PAF to have some good past time. He went there to give approval of few projects including procurement of some Jets I don't know which ones. Pakistan is desperate. We need to answer Rafael. Also in my opinion the moment we order SU-35 if we don't we would get lot of pressure from USA to buy at least one squadron of BLOCK 60 or 72. Also what I am hearing is USA want Pakistan to release proof of shooting down of SU-30


You still insisting you crappy theories of getting Su-35 how Strange that, you spread your nonsense over 5 year ago, so where are these Su-35 mr fighter pilot HAZRAT @Zarvan

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## Signalian

denel said:


> Yes it uses same bus and can easily be integrated across f-16s but also JF-17s/J-7PG/M3/5.


should have been with Rose-I then

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## Zarvan

pakistanipower said:


> You still insisting you crappy theories of getting Su-35 how Strange that, you spread your nonsense over 5 year ago, so where are these Su-35 mr fighter pilot HAZRAT @Zarvan


Because I know few stuff you beta G can keep talking trash

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## Ultima Thule

Zarvan said:


> Because I know few stuff you beta G can keep talking trash


What a new stuff, are you listen from ACM or some higher command of PAF REVEAL YOUR SOURCE PLEASE AND ATLEAST GIVE SOME RANKS OF YOUR SOURCE, DON'T BE STUPID @Zarvan


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## denel

Signalian said:


> should have been with Rose-I then


not sure. there was talk but i dont know if anything materialised.


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## Cool_Soldier

I wonder if we could really get Block 70 viper as we are still waiting for done deal of AH1Z1 Choppers and no news is there.
Logically, less likely block 70 will join us in near future unless something is cooking up behind the curtain.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakistanipower said:


> You still insisting you crappy theories of getting Su-35 how Strange that, you spread your nonsense over 5 year ago, so where are these Su-35 mr fighter pilot HAZRAT @Zarvan


PAF is not after SU35 but some other platform.


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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF is not after SU35 but some other platform.


Tell this to HAZRAT @Zarvan he is spreading this news 5 year ago that Su-35 is almost confirmed and by the way Pakistan exploring all options not just 1-2 option but my Best Choices is either we should get J-10C or Mig-35 from Russia


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## Tipu7

denel said:


> Nope time to diversify and get A-Darters.


A-Darter is no longer available for Pakistan.


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## Khafee

pakistanipower said:


> What a new stuff, are you listen from ACM or some higher command of PAF REVEAL YOUR SOURCE PLEASE AND ATLEAST GIVE SOME RANKS OF YOUR SOURCE, DON'T BE STUPID @Zarvan



He himself is a respectable civilian Govt officer now. 

Plus IF I remember correctly, he said under consideration / negotiation, not done deal.

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## Tipu7

Khafee said:


> Both points of yours = Chawwal / Bonggian


Yup, and your repeated irresponsible rumors of PAF getting this and that are all pearls of wisdom!


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## Ultima Thule

Khafee said:


> He himself is a respectable civilian Govt officer now.
> 
> Plus IF I remember correctly, he said under consideration / negotiation, not done deal.


Civilian or Military officer and how do you know that, he told us 5 year ago that Su-35 deal almost done, we will see Su-35 in PAF colors after 3-5 year @Khafee

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## Khafee

pakistanipower said:


> Civilian or Military officer and how do you know that, he told us 5 year ago that Su-35 deal almost done, we will see Su-35 in PAF colors after 3-5 year @Khafee


I even know what grade and dept. Last time I posted, some mod got offended and deleted my post. Zarvan is quite a social media celebrity. 

PAF has been in negotiating, evaluating for quite some time, there is no denying that.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakistanipower said:


> Tell this to HAZRAT @Zarvan he is spreading this news 5 year ago that Su-35 is almost confirmed and by the way Pakistan exploring all options not just 1-2 option but my Best Choices is either we should get J-10C or Mig-35 from Russia


It is not even Mig 35... PAF did not want any thing close to what India has been operating for years.


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## Khafee

Tipu7 said:


> Yup, and your repeated irresponsible rumors of PAF getting this and that are all pearls of wisdom!


Time will prove ONE of us right.

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## denel

Tipu7 said:


> A-Darter is no longer available for Pakistan.


what is the basis of this?


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## Zulfiqar

Tipu7 said:


> A-Darter is no longer available for Pakistan.




Why so? Problems from SA side or US e.t.c


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Khafee said:


> PAF has been in negotiating, evaluating for quite some time, there is no denying that.


PAF even evaluated the SU27's of Ukraine in the 90's.


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## Zarvan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF is not after SU35 but some other platform.


SU-35 is the beast issue was lack of AESA if this claim by @Khafee is true than it seem China has played some role in it and they may fit AESA radar in SU-35 which we would get.

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## Ultima Thule

Khafee said:


> I even know what grade and dept. Last time I posted, some mod got offended and deleted my post. Zarvan is quite a social media celebrity.
> 
> PAF has been in negotiating, evaluating for quite some time, there is no denying that.


give us the favor in what department he is and is he is a civilian or Military officer (civilian departments of military) @khfee


----------



## Khafee

pakistanipower said:


> give us the favor in what department he is and is he is a civilian or Military officer (civilian departments of military) @khfee


He is a good guy, has Pakistan's best interest at heart, shake hands, be polite, and move on.

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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> It is not even Mig 35... PAF did not want any thing close to what India has been operating for years.


 if that sense i would like to say the only option left is J-10C forget EF-2000 (Extremely Expensive) Grippen Sweden is denying us, so what other option we have other then F-16 Block 72/V @ACE OF THE AIR



Khafee said:


> He is a good guy, has Pakistan's best interest at heart, shake hands, be polite, and move on.


you don't give my question's answer sir


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## Khafee

pakistanipower said:


> you don't give my question's answer sir


Samjhdar ko ishara kaafi

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Khafee said:


> No more Khafee Leaks. Google "Khafee senior moderator" IF interested.


Done...
Btw this year Russia has entered the SU-47 in Air Show...What are the possibilities that Russia may be restarting its production to market for export.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ark_Angel said:


> Hello Everyone. Have been following this discussion in a passive mode since quite sometime but after seeing a lot of frustration from some members here just want to put some rumours to rest and some clarity in the minds of members. Coming from a reliable source PAF is looking at 36+/- SU-35s as the F-16 V upgrade program is hitting snags due to Unrealistic US offer. SU-35s have been on offer since 2016 were evaluated in 2017 along with an offer on Mig-35s. Initial number to be procured is being looked at 8-18 Jets. And will be increased Incrementally. @Khafee


It'd be interesting to learn how the MiG-35 fared, and why it was cut. 

There was potential engine commonality with the JF-17 (albeit if one day the JF-17 switches to the RD-33MK), lower cost, and more Russian openness towards customizing the jet with third-party systems (e.g., the original MiG-35 proposal relied on Italian EW/ECM and a French HMD/S). 

I'm guessing the capability gap between the MiG-35 and the JF-17 Block-III wasn't far enough to justify the price difference, or the MiG-35 didn't have the range and payload the PAF was looking for in a dual-engine.



ARMalik said:


> So from the topic of buying F-16s, someone decides to add buying SU-35s from Russia as well .... great!


To be fair, this takes me back in 2003-2004. On the old PDF we were hearing about M2K-5, used F-16s, J-10As, and Su-30s until, all of a sudden, Bush Jr. says the US will start selling F-16s to Pakistan again.

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## Basel

Flight of falcon said:


> *https://www.defensenews.com/global/...eks-more-than-us-funds-in-meeting-with-trump/*
> 
> 
> *Money isn’t everything: Pakistan seeks more than US funds in meeting with Trump*
> By: Joe Gould and Usman Ansari   July 23
> stronger ties on security and trade — and, according to Trump, that the aid might be restored.
> 
> “All of that money can come back, depending on what we work out,” Trump told reporters ahead of a meeting between the two leaders at the White House on Monday.
> 
> Pakistan may, in the coming days, help end the Taliban’s reluctance to deal directly with the Afghan government, Khan said. The prime minister said he never believed there would be a military solution and that a peace deal appeared closer than ever.
> 
> “Pakistan needs stability,” Khan said. “We have 15 years of fighting this war on terror, over 70,000 Pakistani casualties, over $150 billion lost to the economy. ... We desperately want peace, and I am happy President Trump has pushed this forward.”
> 
> Author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, believes Pakistan would be interested in a resumption of military aid, though the government understands that Trump’s view of international relations is transactional.
> 
> Despite diversifying its supplier portfolio, Pakistan has important American-made equipment in service and, according to Pakistan analyst Kamal Alam, needs military-specific aid, notably AH-1Z helicopter gunships and special operations equipment to meet counterinsurgency needs.
> 
> Though it is fencing the Afghan-Pakistan border to stymie infiltration, the Pakistani military knows American equipment would make this effort more effective, and this may be the primary area of focus for resumed military aid.
> 
> Sign up for our Early Bird Brief
> Get the defense industry's most comprehensive news and information straight to your inbox
> The military would also like to replace its P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, potentially with the Boeing-made P-8A Poseidon.
> 
> Pakistan is also seeking U.S. clearance for RIM-116 missile systems, which would serve as the primary air-defense system for the country’s Ada-class corvettes designed by Turkey. Pakistan “needs a good working relationship with the U.S., regardless of whether it is getting any aid,” Cloughley noted.
> 
> Of the rocky relationship between Washington and Islamabad, Trump said Pakistan’s previous leaders did not respect the U.S. or his predecessors in office — presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama. Trump assessed the relationship was on the upswing under himself and Khan, a former sports star who took office in August.
> 
> “Pakistan was not doing anything for us, they were really, I think, subversive. They were going against us,” Trump said.
> 
> The U.S. announced in January 2018 that it was suspending $900 million of security aid to Pakistan for failing to act against Taliban militants. That included $255 million for Pakistani purchases of American military equipment.
> 
> As of Monday morning, the decision remained in effect. But according to a U.S. State Department official, the Trump administration is constantly evaluating the policy, as the president said he might resume aid if warranted by Pakistan’s actions. Trump is also willing to approve specific exceptions to the suspension for programs determined to be in the United States’ national security interest.
> 
> Historically, these security assistance programs with Pakistan supported projects for the Pakistan Army, Air Force and Navy, as well as accountability monitoring of American equipment. Those projects were developed with the Pakistani military to support its counterterrorism, counterinsurgency and self-defense requirements, the official said.
> 
> Over the past 15 years, Pakistan received roughly $15 billion in Coalition Support Funds meant to reimburse support for U.S. operations; roughly $4 billion in Foreign Military Financing funds used to purchase American equipment; about $1.4 billion in the Pakistan Counterinsurgency Capability Fund to build Pakistan’s counterinsurgency capability; and approximately $52 million in International Military Education and Training funds.



Why just seeking RIM-116, Pakistan should also ask for latest ESSM which can take on supersonic missile.







http://www.seaforces.org/wpnsys/SURFACE/RIM-162-Evolved-Sea-Sparrow-Missile.htm


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## denel

Basel said:


> Why just seeking RIM-116, Pakistan should also ask for latest ESSM which can take on supersonic missile.


I assume you are asking on the ship side. Again same issue putting eggs into one basket. Why not go and get Umkonto.

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## Basel

denel said:


> I assume you are asking on the ship side. Again same issue putting eggs into one basket. Why not go and get Umkonto.



If Pakistan is ask for SAM for ships from US without VLS capacity then ESSM is good option then SA SAM but having said that SA SAM can fill role of RIM-116 if I m not wrong.

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## denel

Basel said:


> If Pakistan is ask for SAM for ships from US without VLS capacity then ESSM is good option then SA SAM but having said that SA SAM can fill role of RIM-116 if I m not wrong.


I thought VLS capability was being put in the turkish ships.

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## Basel

denel said:


> I thought VLS capability was being put in the turkish ships.



ESSM with MK-29 launcher can reduce cost for PN as Ada may not have VLS space, even if it have VLS space then Mk-29 can allow more missiles on board ship.

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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'd be interesting to learn how the MiG-35 fared, and why it was cut.
> 
> There was potential engine commonality with the JF-17 (albeit if one day the JF-17 switches to the RD-33MK), lower cost, and more Russian openness towards customizing the jet with third-party systems (e.g., the original MiG-35 proposal relied on Italian EW/ECM and a French HMD/S).
> 
> I'm guessing the capability gap between the MiG-35 and the JF-17 Block-III wasn't far enough to justify the price difference, or the MiG-35 didn't have the range and payload the PAF was looking for in a dual-engine.
> 
> 
> To be fair, this takes me back in 2003-2004. On the old PDF we were hearing about M2K-5, used F-16s, J-10As, and Su-30s until, all of a sudden, Bush Jr. says the US will start selling F-16s to Pakistan again.



I remember those days quite well.

People have short memories.

The political power dynamics as well as hardware options for the PAF have changed in the world since that time, however.

Chinese improvements have been a miracle for Pakistan.

I don’t even wanna think about a scenario where FC-1/JF-17 failed or the Russians didn’t release the RD-93 in that era.

Fortunately if nothing else, China provides a better option in 2019 than 2004.

Still the -V upgrade path obviously provides most bang for the buck.

But I am extremely weary of US motivations to aid Pakistan’s military capabilities vis a vis Pakistan/India.

Especially in light of conspiracy theory-ish Israeli plans.

Before choosing a type if any, I hope Pakistani leadership keeps the long term political implications in mind.

(Including potential scenarios of vulnerability due to external reliance) i.e. sanctions. i.e. a vast majority of a PAF fleet degraded if the US chooses.

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## WebMaster

Zarvan said:


> Imran Khan was not just at PAF to have some good past time. He went there to give approval of few projects including procurement of some Jets I don't know which ones. Pakistan is desperate. We need to answer Rafael. Also in my opinion the moment we order SU-35 if we do order those, we would get lot of pressure from USA to buy at least one squadron of BLOCK 60 or 72. Also what I am hearing is USA want Pakistan to release proof of shooting down of SU-30.
> 
> @Sinnerman108 @Bratva @Path-Finder @Khafee



Marketing 101 ?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

pakistanipower said:


> if that sense i would like to say the only option left is J-10C forget EF-2000 (Extremely Expensive) Grippen Sweden is denying us, so what other option we have other then F-16 Block 72/V @ACE OF THE AIR
> 
> 
> you don't give my question's answer sir


PAF is looking everywhere but what comes in is still anyone's guess. What is known is France can only give PAF Mirages as Rafale are too expensive. PAF needs a counter for Rafales which can be by air superiority fighters procurement. On the other hand PAF wants a dedicated deep strike platform. 
In reality PAF can only go for more F-16's or EFT Trench 1 but the need for deep strike would remain. 

There are two other options Play along with the Russians with Turkey ar Go along with China. With Turkey PAF may end up having SU-57 whereas with China SU-35 with Chinese or Western or Turkish goodies.


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## Zarvan

WebMaster said:


> Marketing 101 ?


Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Basel said:


> ESSM with MK-29 launcher can reduce cost for PN as Ada may not have VLS space, even if it have VLS space then Mk-29 can allow more missiles on board ship.


The PN confirmed that the MILGEMs will get VLS:

During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells) installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454​


Avicenna said:


> I remember those days quite well.
> 
> People have short memories.
> 
> The political power dynamics as well as hardware options for the PAF have changed in the world since that time, however.
> 
> Chinese improvements have been a miracle for Pakistan.
> 
> I don’t even wanna think about a scenario where FC-1/JF-17 failed or the Russians didn’t release the RD-93 in that era.
> 
> Fortunately if nothing else, China provides a better option in 2019 than 2004.
> 
> Still the -V upgrade path obviously provides most bang for the buck.
> 
> But I am extremely weary of US motivations to aid Pakistan’s military capabilities vis a vis Pakistan/India.
> 
> Especially in light of conspiracy theory-ish Israeli plans.
> 
> Before choosing a type if any, I hope Pakistani leadership keeps the long term political implications in mind.
> 
> (Including potential scenarios of vulnerability due to external reliance) i.e. sanctions. i.e. a vast majority of a PAF fleet degraded if the US chooses.


tbh I'd rather go in-house (double down on JF-17, focus on Azm). However, I suspect buying an off-the-shelf platform from one of China or Russia probably has a little to do with getting critical tech support for Azm.

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## NA71

Zarvan said:


> Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show


that would be annoying for Russians ... we are talking with them somewhere ...it would jeopardize our deal


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## Signalian

Zarvan said:


> Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show


Wouldn't help if war starts, there is no Rafale in IAF service. How is supposed to take on PAF then ?
SU30 has already been shot down so the invincibility/superiority against PAF myth has been broken.

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## Ultima Thule

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> PAF is looking everywhere but what comes in is still anyone's guess. What is known is France can only give PAF Mirages as Rafale are too expensive. PAF needs a counter for Rafales which can be by air superiority fighters procurement. On the other hand PAF wants a dedicated deep strike platform.
> In reality PAF can only go for more F-16's or EFT Trench 1 but the need for deep strike would remain.
> 
> There are two other options Play along with the Russians with Turkey ar Go along with China. With Turkey PAF may end up having SU-57 whereas with China SU-35 with Chinese or Western or Turkish goodies.


only western Military tech will be available in form F-16/ EF-2000 trench -1 will not fit PAF- bill, If consider EFT then we order long before Su-35 has no chance for Pakistan and most of them are multi role jets which means these can be used as Deep strike as situation allows

Main problem for EFT Trench-1 is basically a air superiority jet with limited/minimal air to ground capability (Stand off launch capability) J-10 or Mig-35 would be the best choices in my opinions @ACE OF THE AIR


----------



## Tipu7

Khafee said:


> Time will prove ONE of us right.


Thing is not that what is right or what is not.
Thing is, what should be disclosed on a public forums and what should not.
You initially leaked the news of 18-24 Blk72 and then of 36 Su35 on public forums, though as per AHQ these topics are not meant to be shared in social media.



Zulfiqar said:


> Why so? Problems from SA side or US e.t.c


Chinese.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN confirmed that the MILGEMs will get VLS:
> 
> During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells) installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.
> 
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454​
> 
> tbh I'd rather go in-house (double down on JF-17, focus on Azm). However, *I suspect buying an off-the-shelf platform from one of China or Russia probably has a little to do with getting critical tech support for Azm*.


On spot. Azm is still far away.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN confirmed that the MILGEMs will get VLS:
> 
> During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells) installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.
> 
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454


Although its getting off topic, but can you clarify one thing,
We are acquiring 4 Milgem Corvettes (one as we see in Turkish navy) or 4 Jinnah Frigates (with VLS) ?


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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PN confirmed that the MILGEMs will get VLS:
> 
> During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells) installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.
> 
> https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454​
> 
> tbh I'd rather go in-house (double down on JF-17, focus on Azm). However, I suspect buying an off-the-shelf platform from one of China or Russia probably has a little to do with getting critical tech support for Azm.



There are a few reasons for/advantages of introducing an off the shelf buy now however.

First, Block 3 seems to be taking a bit longer than expected.

Secondly if war comes in the next 5 years it may be advantageous to have two pathways to new airframes (Block 3 and the 4.5 gen off the shelf simultaneously) which speeds up modernization

Third, the inherent new capabilities the off the shelf brings depending on what type is chosen.

And of course what you mentioned about getting critical tech support for Azm.

Of course money is a factor.

But the guys next door may force Pakistan’s hand.

Given the political situation, it may be wise to prepare for the worst as quickly as possible.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> Although its getting off topic, but can you clarify one thing,
> We are acquiring 4 Milgem Corvettes (one as we see in Turkish navy) or 4 Jinnah Frigates (with VLS) ?


So, it's unclear. The bare minimum is 3 ASW corvettes (similar to those with the Turkish Navy) and 1 VLS-equipped Jinnah-class frigate. However, based on the link I shared above, it now seems all 4 will be Jinnah-class frigates (?).

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Avicenna said:


> There are a few reasons for/advantages of introducing an off the shelf buy now however.
> 
> First, Block 3 seems to be taking a bit longer than expected.
> 
> Secondly if war comes in the next 5 years it may be advantageous to have two pathways to new airframes (Block 3 and the 4.5 gen off the shelf simultaneously) which speeds up modernization
> 
> Third, the inherent new capabilities the off the shelf brings depending on what type is chosen.
> 
> And of course what you mentioned about getting critical tech support for Azm.
> 
> Of course money is a factor.
> 
> But the guys next door may force Pakistan’s hand.
> 
> Given the political situation, it may be wise to prepare for the worst as quickly as possible.


I agree, but the thing that worries me (as @Ark_Angel highlighted), this can at best be a total off-the-shelf purchase. There's no margin (at least in the near-run) for customization, esp. for SOW/ALCMs (which I would think a bigger airframe would be sought for in the first place).

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## The Eagle

doorstar said:


> that might be true if it were a Russian instead of a bharati flying it



Speculation as such can lead to offers from both side by not releasing or by doing so.


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## The Eagle

doorstar said:


> Speculation may be ending on the 6th if that uplifting surprise turns out to be info about the downing of the bharati Sukhoi instead of a new weapons acquisition by Pakistan. anyways either one suits me fine



At-least, we shall not base our possible outcomes in regard to any bird on the proof or no proof of MKI downing. I agree that hopes are high for this Defence Day in view of 27th Feb beating of IAF. However, the argument that US offer us something only if we share proof of MKI & if Russia is offering something that we shouldn't share; is too weak to begin with. As far as talks or evaluation or even interests goes; US offer can be viewed under Afghanistan Peace Process & our assistance while on other hand, there been chatter about PAF interests into SU-35 way back then before 27th February. Then, there comes the possibility of evaluation & interest into another western platform as well. 

There are interests in-fact and somehow, evaluation different platforms would have been done for our need to bridge the gap between generation of jets as well as to complement 4th Gen fleet at large.

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## Khafee

Zarvan said:


> Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show


Why dont you tell them the answer PAF gave to the Americans.

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## Riz

Khafee said:


> Why dont you tell them the answer PAF gave to the Americans.


Which one bro??

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## Khafee

Riz said:


> Which one bro??


On the footage of the downing of the Su-30



Tipu7 said:


> Thing is not that what is right or what is not.
> Thing is, what should be disclosed on a public forums and what should not.
> You initially leaked the news of 18-24 Blk72 and then of 36 Su35 on public forums, though as per AHQ these topics are not meant to be shared in social media.


So you are basically agreeing with what I stated, but diverting attention. Oh ok!

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## Riz

We are prepaid... New badge of PaF with Kashmir map

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## CHI RULES

Riz said:


> View attachment 577608
> View attachment 577608
> 
> We are prepaid... New badge of PaF with Kashmir map



Instead of badges they should take some practical steps to pressurize India then these badges shall have some worth.

Many people are talking about block 70 meanwhile the existing F16 users are going for V upgrade. Can someone shed light on specs of block 70 along with per unit cost, and also the V upgrade along with per Jet cost.

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## Ultima Thule

CHI RULES said:


> Instead of badges they should take some practical steps to pressurize India then these badges shall have some worth.


What type of step do you refer for example @CHI RULES


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## CHI RULES

pakistanipower said:


> What type of step do you refer for example @CHI RULES



I shall be called a key board warrior but many experts are of the view like me that a limited war within Kashmir either by inserting SSG personnel with help of Kashmiri Mujahdeen or open attacks on Indian border posts should have been launched also with limited A to A skirmishes. Even a small show of power shall bring world powers/ so called brotherly Islamic countries on their knees as they will not prefer to see a open war resulting in destruction of Indian economic centers which have billions of USD investment by them.

With some sacrifices not only issue shall be resolved but BJP/RSS hidden agenda of cleaning subcontinent from Muslims first and later on other minorities shall sleep for ever.

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## MIRauf

If President Trumps orders the release of CSF $s, more then likely the funds will be put in an escrow account with stipulation that most if not all the amount only be spent on US Products.

If such is the stipulation that it be best to go for F-16 even Block-70 without AESA along with more AH-1. Good news if true is that Kushner Lobby is working for the deal, he can make things happen when push comes to shove.

This will also make it tough to spend these funds on Education / R&D in Pakistan as someone wrote in one of the posts. President Trump is shrewd businessman so don't be surprised if he does something like this. i.e US soybean for F-16 $ refund by President Clinton, but this be much better deal then that.

Now this is my hunch based on news clippings etc.

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## Silicon0000

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!



170 pages, lots of time and discussion...... and ........ Nothing ......... @Khafee @Khafee
I hope your source is not "Jamati et al" otherwise the term "Bongian" applies on both side.

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## FuturePAF

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I heard their are almost *1,000 *Surplus US F16, we just need 40-50 Surplus crafts with
> Block C/D upgrade
> 
> Many European countries also selling F16 A/B
> 
> F16 Block C/D has served us well so far why break the bank ?
> 10 Billion Coalition Support funds
> 
> 2 Billion to acquire 45 Block C/D surplus crafts from USA , Used crafts
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 8 Billion Transferred to Army / Navy / Air-force
> APC purchase , Corvette Purchase , Transport craft purchase, SAM batteries



Best to get 3-4 dozen air frames now using CSF funds (if not with CSF funds then don't do it and just go for the J-10CE with AESA), and if they pan out in terms of a future upgrade great, but if they don't then no loss of Pakistani funds.



Basel said:


> If Pakistan is ask for SAM for ships from US without VLS capacity then ESSM is good option then SA SAM but having said that SA SAM can fill role of RIM-116 if I m not wrong.


Especially to upgrade the F-22P SAM capacity from 8 FM-90 of 15 km range to 32 ESSM with a range out to 50 km; Couple that with an upgrade of the radar to a Smart S Mk. 2. The real issue remains political with western upgrades on Chinese vessels, when the Chinese are more than capable of manufacturing similar missiles, and giving over the AAW capability for the ship to Americans could be risky if relations sour again.



Avicenna said:


> I remember those days quite well.
> 
> People have short memories.
> 
> The political power dynamics as well as hardware options for the PAF have changed in the world since that time, however.
> 
> Chinese improvements have been a miracle for Pakistan.
> 
> I don’t even wanna think about a scenario where FC-1/JF-17 failed or the Russians didn’t release the RD-93 in that era.
> 
> Fortunately if nothing else, China provides a better option in 2019 than 2004.
> 
> Still the -V upgrade path obviously provides most bang for the buck.
> 
> But I am extremely weary of US motivations to aid Pakistan’s military capabilities vis a vis Pakistan/India.
> 
> Especially in light of conspiracy theory-ish Israeli plans.
> 
> Before choosing a type if any, I hope Pakistani leadership keeps the long term political implications in mind.
> 
> (Including potential scenarios of vulnerability due to external reliance) i.e. sanctions. i.e. a vast majority of a PAF fleet degraded if the US chooses.



Hence the PAF should commit to getting *One Squadron of the J-10CE TODAY*. It will show the US (and PAF's own fence sitting officers) the PAF is deadly serious. Once the PAF gets the ball rolling on inducting a new type it will make it a lot easier for the PAF to shift away from the F-16 and towards the J-10CE if the US doesn't supply needs spares or upgrades or weapons in the future. With out proper support and an upgrade, in a few years the F-16 Block 52 will be third string to the J-10CE and the JF-17 Block III.

@$60 million; a squadron of 18 Fighters would be give or take $1 Billion. (there will be hundreds of millions more spend to induct a new type) Once the PAF is busy training on the J-10CE, the US will visibly see the PAF slipping out of their hands, the best pilots and mostly likely to be promoted to highest ranks will go to the J-10 Squadron.

Do this across the other two branches, with Attack helicopters for the Army and C4ISR equipment or ships for the Navy, and the cadres of future high ranking officers will no longer be going to the the US.

This is the consequence of the US not supporting the Pakistani Military with modern equipment. BTW the saga of the F-16 Radars is not new, it was the same in the 80s, with the US initially refusing to sell the look down shoot down radars, until they realized PAF would only accept the jets with the radars or not at all. It was very well demonstrated in the movie; Charlie Wilson's war.

0:32-0:37





3:50-4:22





*BTW the SABR Radar; the one in the Block 70/72 is itself not as good as the AN/APG-80 on the Block 60, The AN/APG-80 is the same radar offered to the Indians for the F-16IN. So if the US is serious about a strategic relation with Pakistan, it needs to be get real and at the very least AESA radar it has already approved to so many nations. Or sell Used F-16 C/Ds and let Pakistan buy Turkish F-16 AESA radars, and protect the SABR's "secret sauce". 





*
To paraphrase the clip above; IF this was a real war, the US would take into account Pakistan's need and find a middle ground approach.



MIRauf said:


> If President Trumps orders the release of CSF $s, more then likely the funds will be put in an escrow account with stipulation that most if not all the amount only be spent on US Products.
> 
> If such is the stipulation that it be best to go for F-16 even Block-70 without AESA along with more AH-1. Good news if true is that Kushner Lobby is working for the deal, he can make things happen when push comes to shove.
> 
> This will also make it tough to spend these funds on Education / R&D in Pakistan as someone wrote in one of the posts. President Trump is shrewd businessman so don't be surprised if he does something like this. i.e US soybean for F-16 $ refund by President Clinton, but this be much better deal then that.
> 
> Now this is my hunch based on news clippings etc.



New F-16s are not it unless they are fully equipped (including AESA) birds, otherwise CSF funds should just go to buying 50-60 if not more F-16 C/D with the least hours on their air frames and Thousands of Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X. This way we fill some of the numbers gap we have at the least cost; and speed up the retirement of the oldest F-7s and Mirages.

We can spend our own money on AESA birds like the J-10CE.

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## GriffinsRule

Tipu7 said:


> Yup, the same package which was once offered few years back during Sohail Aman times.
> But there is difference in 'finalizing a deal' and 'initiation of negotiations'.
> Yes Blk70/72 were negotiated, but no progress was made as Americans were willing not to offer any tech, and that too with military funds support, which could 'disturb' the regional power balance.
> 
> Definitely, if Su35 is on card then no more F16s or any other relevant equipment for Pakistan. Being an operative of sufficient size of American hardware, Pakistan cannot afford sanctions under the regulations of CAATSA.
> PAF is itself split into two group of thoughts, one with more pro Western approach demanding more 'surplus' airframes instead of any Asian counterpart, and other one is inclined towards Asian market. And each group is attempting to generate pressure, rumors of Blk70 and Su35 are part of it.


I think Pakistan is taking a wait-and-see approach towards CAATSA, both in terms with how it is applied against Turkey and India, if at all, and then making its own choices. If there are no significant sanctions against either country, then it opens to door for us to purchase Su-35s from Russia, esp if Block 70s are a no-go.

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## Zarvan

Khafee said:


> Why dont you tell them the answer PAF gave to the Americans.


I don't know what answer they gave but what I know is USA and Lock Head Martin wants Pakistan to release proof

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## baqai

Zarvan said:


> I don't know what answer they gave but what I know is USA and Lock Head Martin wants Pakistan to release proof


Hopefully the answer is coming tomorrow in the ptv program


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## Ark_Angel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> So, it's unclear. The bare minimum is 3 ASW corvettes (similar to those with the Turkish Navy) and 1 VLS-equipped Jinnah-class frigate. However, based on the link I shared above, it now seems all 4 will be Jinnah-class frigates (?).



All 4 are VLS LY-80 equipped. MILGEM has been Re designated as Jinnah Class In PN. If US approval for PDMS isn’t approved you’ll be seeing Korkut-N being placed as instead. Moreover the SSM on the Jinnah Class vessels will be its most powerful element.



denel said:


> I assume you are asking on the ship side. Again same issue putting eggs into one basket. Why not go and get Umkonto.


Umkonto was seriously considered Adm Zaka was given a detailed briefing in SA on the system as well whilst the MILGEM program systems were being finalized. Umkonto couldn’t make it to the final cut due to : 
1. The system was not operational with any allied navy/military, No prior experience with SA w.r.t military Eqt, Due to cost prohibition PN was apprehensive about the riskier route of inducting a unique system from a new vendor. 
2. Time. PN has already faced a certain time delay in certain projects by opting for new,unique systems. Prior experience and urgent requirements compelled PN to go for RIM-116 and a back up plan provided by Turks of Korkut-N. Chinese FL-3000N system was also considered but dropped due to certain issues with the system during trials.


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## kursed

I highly doubt that J10C, off the shelf, are high on PAF radar, right now. Since integration with local data network will be an issue. It’ll introduce a third type to the system. And Pak isn’t interested in buying stand alone shooters anymore.


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## Code_Geass

how willing will Russia be to let us have J-16?


----------



## MIG21DOWN

FuturePAF said:


> Best to get 3-4 dozen air frames now using CSF funds (if not with CSF funds then don't do it and just go for the J-10CE with AESA), and if they pan out in terms of a future upgrade great, but if they don't then no loss of Pakistani funds.
> 
> 
> Especially to upgrade the F-22P SAM capacity from 8 FM-90 of 15 km range to 32 ESSM with a range out to 50 km; Couple that with an upgrade of the radar to a Smart S Mk. 2. The real issue remains political with western upgrades on Chinese vessels, when the Chinese are more than capable of manufacturing similar missiles, and giving over the AAW capability for the ship to Americans could be risky if relations sour again.
> 
> 
> 
> Hence the PAF should commit to getting *One Squadron of the J-10CE TODAY*. It will show the US (and PAF's own fence sitting officers) the PAF is deadly serious. Once the PAF gets the ball rolling on inducting a new type it will make it a lot easier for the PAF to shift away from the F-16 and towards the J-10CE if the US doesn't supply needs spares or upgrades or weapons in the future. With out proper support and an upgrade, in a few years the F-16 Block 52 will be third string to the J-10CE and the JF-17 Block III.
> 
> @$60 million; a squadron of 18 Fighters would be give or take $1 Billion. (there will be hundreds of millions more spend to induct a new type) Once the PAF is busy training on the J-10CE, the US will visibly see the PAF slipping out of their hands, the best pilots and mostly likely to be promoted to highest ranks will go to the J-10 Squadron.
> 
> Do this across the other two branches, with Attack helicopters for the Army and C4ISR equipment or ships for the Navy, and the cadres of future high ranking officers will no longer be going to the the US.
> 
> This is the consequence of the US not supporting the Pakistani Military with modern equipment. BTW the saga of the F-16 Radars is not new, it was the same in the 80s, with the US initially refusing to sell the look down shoot down radars, until they realized PAF would only accept the jets with the radars or not at all. It was very well demonstrated in the movie; Charlie Wilson's war.
> 
> 0:32-0:37
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3:50-4:22
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BTW the SABR Radar; the one in the Block 70/72 is itself not as good as the AN/APG-80 on the Block 60, The AN/APG-80 is the same radar offered to the Indians for the F-16IN. So if the US is serious about a strategic relation with Pakistan, it needs to be get real and at the very least AESA radar it has already approved to so many nations. Or sell Used F-16 C/Ds and let Pakistan buy Turkish F-16 AESA radars, and protect the SABR's "secret sauce".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> To paraphrase the clip above; IF this was a real war, the US would take into account Pakistan's need and find a middle ground approach.
> 
> 
> 
> New F-16s are not it unless they are fully equipped (including AESA) birds, otherwise CSF funds should just go to buying 50-60 if not more F-16 C/D with the least hours on their air frames and Thousands of Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X. This way we fill some of the numbers gap we have at the least cost; and speed up the retirement of the oldest F-7s and Mirages.
> 
> We can spend our own money on AESA birds like the J-10CE.


Ive heard Rumors the block 3 JF-17s will have AESA radars. Does this mean the new jf-17s will have better radar than our F16s?


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## Code_Geass

MIG21DOWN said:


> Ive heard Rumors the block 3 JF-17s will have AESA radars. Does this mean the new jf-17s will have better radar than our F16s?


yeah, it should be.

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## MIG21DOWN

GriffinsRule said:


> I think Pakistan is taking a wait-and-see approach towards CAATSA, both in terms with how it is applied against Turkey and India, if at all, and then making its own choices. If there are no significant sanctions against either country, then it opens to door for us to purchase Su-35s from Russia, esp if Block 70s are a no-go.


Forgive me for my ignorance but arent SU-35s more like Strike air crafts? So if they are bought they will be to replace Mirages rather than F16s as they serve a different purpose? Im not too knowledgable in aircraft so please let me know.

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## Code_Geass

MIG21DOWN said:


> Forgive me for my ignorance but arent SU-35s more like Strike air crafts? So if they are bought they will be to replace Mirages rather than F16s as they serve a different purpose? Im not too knowledgable in aircraft so please let me know.


i think currently we are looking A/C to replace our aging mirage fleet F-16 can go later.


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## MIG21DOWN

Code_Geass said:


> i think currently we are looking A/C to replace our aging mirage fleet F-16 can go later.


Wouldnt su-35 be overkill for Pakistan since we dont have the distance required for twin engined jets? And i heard the cost of maintaining Sukhois are insane so idk how we can afford it.


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## Code_Geass

MIG21DOWN said:


> Wouldnt su-35 be overkill for Pakistan since we dont have the distance required for twin engined jets? And i heard the cost of maintaining Sukhois are insane so idk how we can afford it.


that's is what i don't know, may be we should get A/C from China instead of Russia directly.


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## Shabi1

I watched a interview of AVM Shahid Latif on how PAF managed to evaluate Rafale and Grippen sub systems while deciding on capability road map for the JF-17.

PAF indicated itself as a potential client and the manufacturers gave them access and rides. So the member sources claiming XYZ possible evaluations could be right.

Although I believe PAF will eventually upgrade its F-16s to with AESA either Turkish or US route (eventually expect PAF to keep using F-16s just like the it did with Mirages) but suspect with regards to SU-35 and F-16 Block-70 PAF is again just window shopping as always. If we do place a order for any non Chinese jet now for any new jet will take several years to manufacture and if war occurs, internationally there could be a arms embargo on both India and Pakistan. A J-11D with Russian blessings would have been feasible but its a far fetched wish.

Nevertheless procurement secrecy for our armed forces is so high I doubt anyone will have any confirmation till actual deal is signed. No one expected we would be able to get Block-52s or MLUs for the existing fleet either.

For now the only fighter PAF is confirmed to get is the JF-17 Block-3.



MIG21DOWN said:


> Wouldnt su-35 be overkill for Pakistan since we dont have the distance required for twin engined jets? And i heard the cost of maintaining Sukhois are insane so idk how we can afford it.



SU-35 is a multirole platform. In air superiority it can loiter longer and carry more payload so it can come in handy for a BVR barrage attack in air superiority role. This tactic was expected of InAF SU-30MKIs as well but PAF achieved first shot capability. Russian jets are usually maintenance intensive but compared to previous Flanker series jets SU-35 is claimed to have western level maintenance intervals. 
However from what we have been hearing Chinese have better radar and missile options.

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## loanranger

FuturePAF said:


> Best to get 3-4 dozen air frames now using CSF funds (if not with CSF funds then don't do it and just go for the J-10CE with AESA), and if they pan out in terms of a future upgrade great, but if they don't then no loss of Pakistani funds.
> 
> 
> Especially to upgrade the F-22P SAM capacity from 8 FM-90 of 15 km range to 32 ESSM with a range out to 50 km; Couple that with an upgrade of the radar to a Smart S Mk. 2. The real issue remains political with western upgrades on Chinese vessels, when the Chinese are more than capable of manufacturing similar missiles, and giving over the AAW capability for the ship to Americans could be risky if relations sour again.
> 
> 
> 
> Hence the PAF should commit to getting *One Squadron of the J-10CE TODAY*. It will show the US (and PAF's own fence sitting officers) the PAF is deadly serious. Once the PAF gets the ball rolling on inducting a new type it will make it a lot easier for the PAF to shift away from the F-16 and towards the J-10CE if the US doesn't supply needs spares or upgrades or weapons in the future. With out proper support and an upgrade, in a few years the F-16 Block 52 will be third string to the J-10CE and the JF-17 Block III.
> 
> @$60 million; a squadron of 18 Fighters would be give or take $1 Billion. (there will be hundreds of millions more spend to induct a new type) Once the PAF is busy training on the J-10CE, the US will visibly see the PAF slipping out of their hands, the best pilots and mostly likely to be promoted to highest ranks will go to the J-10 Squadron.
> 
> Do this across the other two branches, with Attack helicopters for the Army and C4ISR equipment or ships for the Navy, and the cadres of future high ranking officers will no longer be going to the the US.
> 
> This is the consequence of the US not supporting the Pakistani Military with modern equipment. BTW the saga of the F-16 Radars is not new, it was the same in the 80s, with the US initially refusing to sell the look down shoot down radars, until they realized PAF would only accept the jets with the radars or not at all. It was very well demonstrated in the movie; Charlie Wilson's war.
> 
> 0:32-0:37
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3:50-4:22
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BTW the SABR Radar; the one in the Block 70/72 is itself not as good as the AN/APG-80 on the Block 60, The AN/APG-80 is the same radar offered to the Indians for the F-16IN. So if the US is serious about a strategic relation with Pakistan, it needs to be get real and at the very least AESA radar it has already approved to so many nations. Or sell Used F-16 C/Ds and let Pakistan buy Turkish F-16 AESA radars, and protect the SABR's "secret sauce".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> To paraphrase the clip above; IF this was a real war, the US would take into account Pakistan's need and find a middle ground approach.
> 
> 
> 
> New F-16s are not it unless they are fully equipped (including AESA) birds, otherwise CSF funds should just go to buying 50-60 if not more F-16 C/D with the least hours on their air frames and Thousands of Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X. This way we fill some of the numbers gap we have at the least cost; and speed up the retirement of the oldest F-7s and Mirages.
> 
> We can spend our own money on AESA birds like the J-10CE.


Those videos really put in context what you were trying to explain! Its true if the Americans are picky about the radars on our new f 16s it means they are not serious about Afghanistan. I read somewhere on pdf that the f16 deal was hiting some snags due to type of radar ! Get those mint f16 C/D and AIM 9X and C5 in large numbers.



Zarvan said:


> I don't know what answer they gave but what I know is USA and Lock Head Martin wants Pakistan to release proof


They should release the proof if it gets us f16s. Donot if its just a ego booster and "daikhain gai deal"

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## denel

Ark_Angel said:


> All 4 are VLS LY-80 equipped. MILGEM has been Re designated as Jinnah Class In PN. If US approval for PDMS isn’t approved you’ll be seeing Korkut-N being placed as instead. Moreover the SSM on the Jinnah Class vessels will be its most powerful element.
> 
> 
> Umkonto was seriously considered Adm Zaka was given a detailed briefing in SA on the system as well whilst the MILGEM program systems were being finalized. Umkonto couldn’t make it to the final cut due to :
> 1. The system was not operational with any allied navy/military, No prior experience with SA w.r.t military Eqt, Due to cost prohibition PN was apprehensive about the riskier route of inducting a unique system from a new vendor.
> 2. Time. PN has already faced a certain time delay in certain projects by opting for new,unique systems. Prior experience and urgent requirements compelled PN to go for RIM-116 and a back up plan provided by Turks of Korkut-N. Chinese FL-3000N system was also considered but dropped due to certain issues with the system during trials.


That is odd and again i find excuses by Pak institutions for SA equipment; Umkonto was operational both in SA and Finnish navies for a long time. Now with Algeria.

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## Trailer23

Zarvan said:


> Also what I am hearing is USA want Pakistan to release proof of shooting down of SU-30.





Zarvan said:


> Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show





Zarvan said:


> I don't know what answer they gave but what I know is USA and Lock Head Martin wants Pakistan to release proof


I'm having a hard time trying to understand the narrative about '_proof_' of shooting down a Russian bird.

Why?

If memory serves, after the events of 27th February - when India went running to the United States about the usage of F-16's, our own DG ISPR had stated that NO F-16 were used in The Mission/Strikes. Clearly that was a deception from our side as we didn't actually speak about what was used in defense once the IAF Jets entered PAK Air Space.

Nonetheless, the US was curious/furious that we may have broken the *End User Agreement* and had sent personnel from _Lockheed Martin_ to investigate. I'm sure they didn't just count the number of F-16 in our inventory. It may be a bit hard to conceal evidence on these birds.

Finally, if the US is asking for evidence..., then whats the harm? Do they plan on making it Public to piss off their advisory (Russia) and prove to the World that US Equipment is superior to Russian.
a. It'll prove we shot down IAF's Mighty Su-30MKi (-courtesy of the Govt. of the U.S.of A).
b. India will be pissed off - and end up giving their Su-Pilots medals for bravery.
c. We get what we want (F-16's).

I don't know..., it all seems far fetched that the fate of our possible/future jets lay in the hands of some proof that we have.

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## Zarvan

Trailer23 said:


> I'm having a hard time trying to understand the narrative about '_proof_' of shooting down a Russian bird.
> 
> Why?
> 
> If memory serves, after the events of 27th February - when India went running to the United States about the usage of F-16's, our own DG ISPR had stated that NO F-16 were used in The Mission/Strikes. Clearly that was a deception from our side as we didn't actually speak about what was used in defense once the IAF Jets entered PAK Air Space.
> 
> Nonetheless, the US was curious/furious that we may have broken the *End User Agreement* and had sent personnel from _Lockheed Martin_ to investigate. I'm sure they didn't just count the number of F-16 in our inventory. It may be a bit hard to conceal evidence on these birds.
> 
> Finally, if the US is asking for evidence..., then whats the harm? Do they plan on making it Public to piss off their advisory (Russia) and prove to the World that US Equipment is superior to Russian.
> a. It'll prove we shot down IAF's Mighty Su-30MKi (-courtesy of the Govt. of the U.S.of A).
> b. India will be pissed off - and end up giving their Su-Pilots medals for bravery.
> c. We get what we want (F-16's).
> 
> I don't know..., it all seems far fetched that the fate of our possible/future jets lay in the hands of some proof that we have.


My statement is very clear and also directly indicated why US wants us to release proof of SU-30 being shot down. If it was JF-17 which would have shot it down US won't be asking us to release proof

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## denel

Trailer23 said:


> I'm having a hard time trying to understand the narrative about '_proof_' of shooting down a Russian bird.
> 
> Why?
> 
> If memory serves, after the events of 27th February - when India went running to the United States about the usage of F-16's, our own DG ISPR had stated that NO F-16 were used in The Mission/Strikes. Clearly that was a deception from our side as we didn't actually speak about what was used in defense once the IAF Jets entered PAK Air Space.
> 
> Nonetheless, the US was curious/furious that we may have broken the *End User Agreement* and had sent personnel from _Lockheed Martin_ to investigate. I'm sure they didn't just count the number of F-16 in our inventory. It may be a bit hard to conceal evidence on these birds.
> 
> Finally, if the US is asking for evidence..., then whats the harm? Do they plan on making it Public to piss off their advisory (Russia) and prove to the World that US Equipment is superior to Russian.
> a. It'll prove we shot down IAF's Mighty Su-30MKi (-courtesy of the Govt. of the U.S.of A).
> b. India will be pissed off - and end up giving their Su-Pilots medals for bravery.
> c. We get what we want (F-16's).
> 
> I don't know..., it all seems far fetched that the fate of our possible/future jets lay in the hands of some proof that we have.


no think of the counter narrative; this means they may opt to get F16s as their second tier aircraft as well.

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## Quwa

denel said:


> That is odd and again i find excuses by Pak institutions for SA equipment; Umkonto was operational both in SA and Finnish navies for a long time. Now with Algeria.


The issue was most likely re: the extended range Umkhonto EIR. That was still in late development by the time the Jinnah class was frozen, esp. as the Chinese are offering a 70 km range version of the LY-80. The way forward with SA is joint devpt for next gen tech.

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## Trailer23

Zarvan said:


> My statement is very clear and also directly indicated why US wants us to release proof of SU-30 being shot down. If it was JF-17 which would have shot it down US won't be asking us to release proof


So, they don't want to see the proof for themselves - but want *us* to release the proof from our end.

I'm not sure what their game is and what they hope to achieve by making us do just that.

The only thing that comes to mind is _(if)_ Pakistan was to release proof of the Su-30MKi, it would keep us away from a _possible_ Russian camp.

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> My statement is very clear and also directly indicated why US wants us to release proof of SU-30 being shot down. If it was JF-17 which would have shot it down US won't be asking us to release proof



Bhai, if they are selling us Block-70 F-16 then that is connected only with Afghanistan Peace talks and not to the release of MKI proof by PAF. However, your suggestion as above seems like that if US is asking us to release such proof, the only goal is to humiliate IAF procurement plans from Russia & make them to choose F-16 aka F-21. By the same demand of release of so & so proof, US may achieve three main goals;


Pakistan - Russia growing relation be damaged & create further vacuum, that we have concealed the proof because had a meeting with Russians on totally different level.

Infuriate our Chinese Friends that played a major role to build our relations with Moscow as well as bringing some beneficial offers on the table, that serves the US purpose once again. Don't forget how IK & Putin had the talks throughout the tour.

Force India through such humiliation for procurement of US Birds.
_In my opinion_, if the offer is in lieu of release of any proof at this time; let's call spade a spade and forget the Vipers. So, if there is an offer by US, that will only materialize on the basis of our assistance in Afghan Peace Talks.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> Bhai, if they are selling us Block-70 F-16 then that is connected only with Afghanistan Peace talks and not to the release of MKI proof by PAF. However, your suggestion as above seems like that if US is asking us to release such proof, the only goal is to humiliate IAF procurement plans from Russia & make them to choose F-16 aka F-21. By the same demand of release of so & so proof, US may achieve three main goals;
> 
> 
> Pakistan - Russia growing relation be damaged & create further vacuum, that we have concealed the proof because had a meeting with Russians on totally different level.
> 
> Infuriate our Chinese Friends that played a major role to build our relations with Moscow as well as bringing some beneficial offers on the table, that serves the US purpose once again. Don't forget how IK & Putin had the talks throughout the tour.
> 
> Force India through such humiliation for procurement of US Birds.
> _In my opinion_, if the offer is in lieu of release of any proof at this time; let's call spade a spade and forget the Vipers. So, if there is an offer by US, that will only materialize on the basis of our assistance in Afghan Peace Talks.


Bhai we releasing proof is good marketing for their Fighter Jets. It has nothing to do with their offer of BLOCK 70 to us. I didn't even knew about this offer until @Khafee posted it here.



Trailer23 said:


> So, they don't want to see the proof for themselves - but want *us* to release the proof from our end.
> 
> I'm not sure what their game is and what they hope to achieve by making us do just that.
> 
> The only thing that comes to mind is _(if)_ Pakistan was to release proof of the Su-30MKi, it would keep us away from a _possible_ Russian camp.


We have already shown them the proof

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## IbnAbdullah

Salaam

I don't really understand why people think Pakistan releasing proof of shooting an IAF jet, albeit a Russian made one, would damage Pak-Russia relations. 

Pakistan supposedly shot it down with an advanced plane in a theatre where AWAACs were also assisting. It doesn't prove the Russian planes as bad - just that Pakistan was able to outsmart the Indians in that one engagement. 

I'd understand if the information that Pakistan possessed was related to the quality of the Russian systems being subpar or anything of that sort, but a plane getting shot during an air battle between two sufficiently qualitatively matched powers isn't as embarrassing as many seem to saying it is. 

Or am I missing something here?

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Bhai we releasing proof is good marketing for their Fighter Jets.



But strategically, especially in current circumstances due to rapid change in geopolitics as well as growing threats; I don't see that happening in such manner as what US want.

Understood your rest of the message. Only time will tell that why US interests in releasing of proof except that their intentions are not what I mentioned in my last post. This is not about jeopardizing our growing relations with Russia but, more about US interest.

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## NA71

Trailer23 said:


> So, they don't want to see the proof for themselves - but want *us* to release the proof from our end.
> 
> I'm not sure what their game is and what they hope to achieve by making us do just that.
> 
> The only thing that comes to mind is _(if)_ Pakistan was to release proof of the Su-30MKi, it would keep us away from a _possible_ Russian camp.



Yes exactly, and this is what i posted yesterday.....Russians do not want us to disclose it. Russians also have shown their tilt towards India in last 48 hrs ...Modi ji in Mascow....so far they were quite.


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## Riz

Trailer23 said:


> So, they don't want to see the proof for themselves - but want *us* to release the proof from our end.
> 
> I'm not sure what their game is and what they hope to achieve by making us do just that.
> 
> The only thing that comes to mind is _(if)_ Pakistan was to release proof of the Su-30MKi, it would keep us away from a _possible_ Russian camp.


Because


Zarvan said:


> Bhai we releasing proof is good marketing for their Fighter Jets. It has nothing to do with their offer of BLOCK 70 to us. I didn't even knew about this offer until @Khafee posted it here.
> 
> 
> We have already shown them the proof


There is no need to release proofs of a downed SU-30... US want to Sale F-16s to India with technology transfer, message has been delivered to India on 27 feb through PAF, there is no one but only F-16 solo king of South Asia... What US want more now??

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## loanranger

Shooting down of a jet is not embarrassing for the manufacturer or country of origin albeit what the pilot did to get it shot down is more embarrassing for an airforce. Its not like the SU 30s oil leaks during a loop. We are looking too much into this. One shoot down does not necessarily suggest that the jet is trash.




They released 1965 war shoot downs recently though.

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## V. Makarov

*>* All pdf members know which jets were on the frontline on 27th Feb. and hence are even more eager to get the F-16Vs .
*>* No doubt the Fighting Falcon is the backbone of the PAF but *if* Pakistan is going *out of the way* to get F-16Vs from USA, then this is a bad idea. Mainly because I believe that any further deal with the USA vis a vis more state of the art fighter jets, will come with more strings attached and probably a compromise of the national security of Pakistan to some extent.

*>*The current hassle in the PAF to acquire new jets is just because PAF wants to get more stronger after the February fiasco and the Rafael deal b/w India and France.
*>* But the hassle can get Pakistan entangled into USA's strings which I believe will be much more strong because USA is leaving Afghanistan soon and will have few reasons to have a strategic partnership with Pakistan.

I imagine:

*>* 10 years down the road, Pakistan feels insecure because India has all the Rafael jets, and has S-400. Now will Pakistan look for the new "F-16 Block 90/92+" ??? Will Pakistan ask KSA to buy them F-35??? Answer is *NO*.

*>* The future of the Pakistani defence procurement lies with China. The sooner Pakistan can integrate Chinese systems into our own environment, the better. Because we will be doing it after 10 years anyway. 
*>* China can always keep the systems flowing in case of emergency but USA is just too unpredictable specially after zero presence in Afghanistan and little engagement/cooperation with Pakistan in the future.

*>* The concept that "USA wants to maintain the military balance between India and Pakistan" is misplaced because USA now wants to maintain the "Balance between India and Sino-Pak" . The aggravating trade-war between the USA and China is an example, and this conflict is obviously going to diversify with time.

*> *I do love the F-16s *a lot,* but I think its time to divorce that machine and move forward in time and change ourselves with the changing dynamics of the South-Asian region and the world as a whole.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

It will be 29 years on the 6th of October when Pressler amendment embargoed our F16s. Here we are still day dreaming for the latest versions. No doubt we received a squadron of block 52s but at a very high price, for being a front line state in the war on terror. God knows what other price we will paying to be the lucky recipient the newest versions.


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## GriffinsRule

In ten years I hope we are looking at NGF prototypes flying and salivating over their future induction in PAF much like ten years ago with JF-17. 
I agree with @v.marakov that future US-Pak relationship is only going to get rocky. We just saw China go in Iran in a massive way (albeit taking advantage of their precarious financial situation) but CPEC is going to connect with Iran and so will our oil and gas pipelines. We will not be in the good graces of US though we should try to maintain neutrality as long as possible. 
If, and it's a big IF, CSF get released, we should use that money to buy support equipment like used C-130s, Cobras as they are already manufactured and used F-16s where possible. Block 70 is amazing and enticing but fraught with challenging political winds

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## loanranger

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> It will be 29 years on the 6th of October when Pressler amendment embargoed our F16s. Here we are still day dreaming for the latest versions. No doubt we received a squadron of block 52s but at a very high price, for being a front line state in the war on terror. God knows what other price we will paying to be the lucky recipient the newest versions.


The sad part is that the world is looking at f 35 and others and we are still stuck on the f 16 which is still so hard for us to get.We should be black mailing the hell out of those Americans for Afghanistan. Our standards are so low.

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## Haris Ali2140

F


loanranger said:


> The sad part is that the world is looking at f 35 and others and we are still stuck on the f 16 which is still so hard for us to get.We should be black mailing the hell out of those Americans for Afghanistan. Our standards are so low.


F 16 will fly for USAF till 2050

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## loanranger

Haris Ali2140 said:


> F
> 
> F 16 will fly for USAF till 2050


Yeah because they got loads of new ones. Ours are 30 and some 13 years old. Upgraded and mlu'd ofcourse but wont last till 2040 I think.

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## Dil Pakistan

We releasing the footage of downing of SU-30 sounds the same as Pakistan is going to recognise Israel

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## denel

Zarvan said:


> Bhai we releasing proof is good marketing for their Fighter Jets. It has nothing to do with their offer of BLOCK 70 to us. I didn't even knew about this offer until @Khafee posted it here.
> 
> 
> We have already shown them the proof


I still dont understand the relevance of showing them the proof?

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## IbnAbdullah

Salaam



denel said:


> I still dont understand the relevance of showing them the proof?




Su30 is used by both the Chinese and the Russians - if it was shot down by an F16 - I think it should be obvious why the Americans arr interested in getting the detailed readings and data of the whole thing. I'm sure there is some stuff to learn. There is a difference between simulation and getting data on an actual kill. 

In addition to this, the propaganda element in this also likely being considered. Probably other dimensions as well.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

The Eagle said:


> Bhai, if they are selling us Block-70 F-16 then that is connected only with Afghanistan Peace talks and not to the release of MKI proof by PAF. However, your suggestion as above seems like that if US is asking us to release such proof, the only goal is to humiliate IAF procurement plans from Russia & make them to choose F-16 aka F-21. By the same demand of release of so & so proof, US may achieve three main goals;
> 
> 
> Pakistan - Russia growing relation be damaged & create further vacuum, that we have concealed the proof because had a meeting with Russians on totally different level.
> 
> Infuriate our Chinese Friends that played a major role to build our relations with Moscow as well as bringing some beneficial offers on the table, that serves the US purpose once again. Don't forget how IK & Putin had the talks throughout the tour.
> 
> Force India through such humiliation for procurement of US Birds.
> _In my opinion_, if the offer is in lieu of release of any proof at this time; let's call spade a spade and forget the Vipers. So, if there is an offer by US, that will only materialize on the basis of our assistance in Afghan Peace Talks.



As per the Muslim understanding it takes a century to shift the geo-strategic fulcrums. We're at the threshold of one such new one
The US is facing increasingly assertive and resourceful adversaries who are cleverly leveraging her fault lines
No Super Power can dismiss the presence at the lucrative "Heart of Asia"; hence, some arrangements might be required for the "ops" there in a tranquil and friendly environment. Now, "ops" don't necessarily mean RAW/NDS terrorist acts to kill kids, elderly, women etc. inside Pak
Modi has travelled to Moscow, not DC
Both the KSA and UAE FMs have rushed to Islamabad. And, the Pak Chief has met them while in "pajamas"
For a change, Pak herself now knows and values the cards she holds. The rest are all details

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## Shabi1

V. Makarov said:


> *>* All pdf members know which jets were on the frontline on 27th Feb. and hence are even more eager to get the F-16Vs .
> *>* No doubt the Fighting Falcon is the backbone of the PAF but *if* Pakistan is going *out of the way* to get F-16Vs from USA, then this is a bad idea. Mainly because I believe that any further deal with the USA vis a vis more state of the art fighter jets, will come with more strings attached and probably a compromise of the national security of Pakistan to some extent.
> 
> *>*The current hassle in the PAF to acquire new jets is just because PAF wants to get more stronger after the February fiasco and the Rafael deal b/w India and France.
> *>* But the hassle can get Pakistan entangled into USA's strings which I believe will be much more strong because USA is leaving Afghanistan soon and will have few reasons to have a strategic partnership with Pakistan.
> 
> I imagine:
> 
> *>* 10 years down the road, Pakistan feels insecure because India has all the Rafael jets, and has S-400. Now will Pakistan look for the new "F-16 Block 90/92+" ??? Will Pakistan ask KSA to buy them F-35??? Answer is *NO*.
> 
> *>* The future of the Pakistani defence procurement lies with China. The sooner Pakistan can integrate Chinese systems into our own environment, the better. Because we will be doing it after 10 years anyway.
> *>* China can always keep the systems flowing in case of emergency but USA is just too unpredictable specially after zero presence in Afghanistan and little engagement/cooperation with Pakistan in the future.
> 
> *>* The concept that "USA wants to maintain the military balance between India and Pakistan" is misplaced because USA now wants to maintain the "Balance between India and Sino-Pak" . The aggravating trade-war between the USA and China is an example, and this conflict is obviously going to diversify with time.
> 
> *> *I do love the F-16s *a lot,* but I think its time to divorce that machine and move forward in time and change ourselves with the changing dynamics of the South-Asian region and the world as a whole.



We want F-16s only as a stop gap. 27th Feb has proven that the platform is very capable against even the SU-30 which was previously thought elsewise. 5-10yrs from now PAF will have project Azm and JF-17 block 3+. F-16 might not be in production then as they plan to convert the infrastructure for F-35 manufacture.
Pl-15 equipped thunders are enough to take on Rafales.

Stop over worrying, PAF planning is in capable hands. The guys who fly these jets and risk their lives for us know better.

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## Gripen9

NA71 said:


> Yes exactly, and this is what i posted yesterday.....Russians do not want us to disclose it. Russians also have shown their tilt towards India in last 48 hrs ...Modi ji in Mascow....so far they were quite.


Russians sold Turkey S400 even after it shot down one of its fighters. So I don't think they will not do business with us if we released SU shoot down evidence.

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## denel

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su30 is used by both the Chinese and the Russians - if it was shot down by an F16 - I think it should be obvious why the Americans arr interested in getting the detailed readings and data of the whole thing. I'm sure there is some stuff to learn. There is a difference between simulation and getting data on an actual kill.
> 
> In addition to this, the propaganda element in this also likely being considered. Probably other dimensions as well.


noted but folks appear to narrate it hinges to sale of f-16s.

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## mingle

With 36 upgraded egyptian Horus 5 I don't see any room for JH7 this thread is useless now

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## Super Falcon

mingle said:


> With 36 upgraded egyptian Horus 5 I don't see any room for JH7 this thread is useless now


Fact is paf is miss usinhmg money on jets which dont have left enough flying hours means we need to upgrade them combine the cost of buying and upgrading we could have bought 16 SU 35

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## Quwa

Super Falcon said:


> Fact is paf is miss usinhmg money on jets which dont have left enough flying hours means we need to upgrade them combine the cost of buying and upgrading we could have bought 16 SU 35


16 Su-35 would cost at least $1 bn to buy upfront and maintain, unlikely these Mirages cost even $50 m together, probably less.

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## Humble Analyst

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> As per the Muslim understanding it takes a century to shift the geo-strategic fulcrums. We're at the threshold of one such new one
> The US is facing increasingly assertive and resourceful adversaries who are cleverly leveraging her fault lines
> No Super Power can dismiss the presence at the lucrative "Heart of Asia"; hence, some arrangements might be required for the "ops" there in a tranquil and friendly environment. Now, "ops" don't necessarily mean RAW/NDS terrorist acts to kill kids, elderly, women etc. inside Pak
> Modi has travelled to Moscow, not DC
> Both the KSA and UAE FMs have rushed to Islamabad. And, the Pak Chief has met them while in "pajamas"
> For a change, Pak herself now knows and values the cards she holds. The rest are all details


A good matter of fact post. Pakistan should learn from experience.

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## denel

Super Falcon said:


> Fact is paf is miss usinhmg money on jets which dont have left enough flying hours means we need to upgrade them combine the cost of buying and upgrading we could have bought 16 SU 35


It is a numbers to ROI/maintenance cost game. How many EAF M5 rise to the air is unknown given how poor EAF maintenance crew and their capabilities are. All should be considered as non airworthy until a complete overhaul is done. More pilots will fall if put to service right away.

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## TsAr

denel said:


> It is a numbers to ROI/maintenance cost game. How many EAF M5 rise to the air is unknown given how poor EAF maintenance crew and their capabilities are. All should be considered as non airworthy until a complete overhaul is done. More pilots will fall if put to service right away.


I am sure that once these planes arrive in Pakistan, PAF engineers would have a thorough look at them.

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## ziaulislam

Quwa said:


> 16 Su-35 would cost at least $1 bn to buy upfront and maintain, unlikely these Mirages cost even $50 m together, probably less.


50M is too much i doubt PAF paid 50M..that was what they were paying for almost new ones in 1990s...



denel said:


> It is a numbers to ROI/maintenance cost game. How many EAF M5 rise to the air is unknown given how poor EAF maintenance crew and their capabilities are. All should be considered as non airworthy until a complete overhaul is done. More pilots will fall if put to service right away.


pretty sure they will be overhauled or broken for spares
question is what was the french reaction on the radar and avionics and HMD ..
and will PAF use them


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> 50M is too much i doubt PAF paid 50M..that was what they were paying for almost new ones in 1990s...
> 
> 
> pretty sure they will be overhauled or broken for spares
> question is what was the french reaction on the radar and avionics and HMD ..
> and will PAF use them


Frankly French dont care a bit; this is water under the bridge and old piece of equipment.


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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> Frankly French dont care a bit; this is water under the bridge and old piece of equipment.


if it can support meteor than it is still useful, better than our block 1 thunders
india will not be happy if that is true..better than anything in india inventory apart from upgraded mirages(coming at a slow pace) & rafales (yet to come)


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## HRK

TsAr said:


> I am sure that once these planes arrive in Pakistan, PAF engineers would have a thorough look at them.


its SOP .... happened with Mirage jets acquired from Australian, Libyan and Lebanon air force

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> if it can support meteor than it is still useful, better than our block 1 thunders
> india will not be happy if that is true..better than anything in india inventory apart from upgraded mirages(coming at a slow pace) & rafales (yet to come)


CUrry munchers will make crocodile tears if even tiger moths show up on Pak side. 
we need an emoji with the middle finger on this forum.

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## FuturePAF

MIG21DOWN said:


> Ive heard Rumors the block 3 JF-17s will have AESA radars. Does this mean the new jf-17s will have better radar than our F16s?



Overall better in every way, except maybe range, but I don't remember the numbers on that.

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## IbnAbdullah

Salaam



FuturePAF said:


> Overall better in every way, except maybe range, but I don't remember the numbers on that.



Even carrying capacity?


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## ghazi52

*Trump says calls off US-Taliban negotiations after Kabul attack*









WASHINGTON: US President Donald Trump said Saturday he had called off a secret summit with the Taliban and Afghanistan´s leader, abruptly slamming the door on a year of diplomacy to end America´s longest war.

In a weekend bombshell, Trump said that he had planned previously unknown talks with the two sides Sunday in Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland, but that the Taliban´s persistent, grisly campaign of violence made them untrustworthy partners.

"Unbeknownst to almost everyone, the major Taliban leaders and, separately, the President of Afghanistan, were going to secretly meet with me at Camp David on Sunday," Trump said in a tweet.

"Unfortunately, in order to build false leverage, they admitted to an attack in Kabul that killed one of our great great soldiers, and 11 other people. I immediately cancelled the meeting and called off peace negotiations."

"What kind of people would kill so many in order to seemingly strengthen their bargaining position? They didn´t, they only made it worse!" Trump said.

A US soldier and another service member from Romania were killed in a car bombing Thursday in Kabul -- the latest major attack claimed by the Taliban even as they negotiated with a US envoy.

If realized, the summit would have been the latest high-profile, high-stakes diplomacy by the mogul-turned-president, who is fond of dramatic gestures.

Instead, his announcement by tweet ended a painstaking diplomatic process led for nearly a year by Zalmay Khalilzad, the Afghan-born veteran US diplomat who has been meeting with the Taliban in Qatar.

Afghanistan´s internationally recognized president, Ashraf Ghani, had been outspoken in his criticism of the shape of the withdrawal agreement with the Taliban, who have refused to negotiate with his government.

- Withdrawal plans in question -

Khalilzad had said in Kabul that he had reached an agreement in principle with the Taliban.

According to parts of the draft deal that had been made public, the Pentagon would pull about 5,000 of the roughly 13,000 US troops from five bases across Afghanistan by early next year.

The insurgents in turn will renounce Al-Qaeda, promise to fight the Islamic State group and stop jihadists using Afghanistan as a safe haven.

The fight against Al-Qaeda was the initial reason for the US-led war that overthrew the Taliban following the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

But US public opinion has soured on nearly two decades of war and Trump, after initially being persuaded to reinforce US troops, has said that the United States should not be involved in "endless" war.

Trump had been uncharacteristically reticent about Afghanistan in recent weeks, with all eyes on whether he would approve a final deal.

Washington had hoped that a withdrawal of US troops would lead to negotiations between the Taliban and Kabul on a more permanent peace.

Speaking earlier Saturday in Paris, Defense Secretary Mark Esper said that the United States would only accept a "good deal" with the Taliban -- words welcomed by the government in Kabul.

But Trump´s abrupt announcement draws a new question mark on whether the United States will leave Afghanistan anytime soon.

The decision comes weeks before Afghanistan is set to hold elections, an unwieldy exercise even in more stable times.


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## Avicenna

ghazi52 said:


> *Trump says calls off US-Taliban negotiations after Kabul attack*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON: US President Donald Trump said Saturday he had called off a secret summit with the Taliban and Afghanistan´s leader, abruptly slamming the door on a year of diplomacy to end America´s longest war.
> 
> In a weekend bombshell, Trump said that he had planned previously unknown talks with the two sides Sunday in Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland, but that the Taliban´s persistent, grisly campaign of violence made them untrustworthy partners.
> 
> "Unbeknownst to almost everyone, the major Taliban leaders and, separately, the President of Afghanistan, were going to secretly meet with me at Camp David on Sunday," Trump said in a tweet.
> 
> "Unfortunately, in order to build false leverage, they admitted to an attack in Kabul that killed one of our great great soldiers, and 11 other people. I immediately cancelled the meeting and called off peace negotiations."
> 
> "What kind of people would kill so many in order to seemingly strengthen their bargaining position? They didn´t, they only made it worse!" Trump said.
> 
> A US soldier and another service member from Romania were killed in a car bombing Thursday in Kabul -- the latest major attack claimed by the Taliban even as they negotiated with a US envoy.
> 
> If realized, the summit would have been the latest high-profile, high-stakes diplomacy by the mogul-turned-president, who is fond of dramatic gestures.
> 
> Instead, his announcement by tweet ended a painstaking diplomatic process led for nearly a year by Zalmay Khalilzad, the Afghan-born veteran US diplomat who has been meeting with the Taliban in Qatar.
> 
> Afghanistan´s internationally recognized president, Ashraf Ghani, had been outspoken in his criticism of the shape of the withdrawal agreement with the Taliban, who have refused to negotiate with his government.
> 
> - Withdrawal plans in question -
> 
> Khalilzad had said in Kabul that he had reached an agreement in principle with the Taliban.
> 
> According to parts of the draft deal that had been made public, the Pentagon would pull about 5,000 of the roughly 13,000 US troops from five bases across Afghanistan by early next year.
> 
> The insurgents in turn will renounce Al-Qaeda, promise to fight the Islamic State group and stop jihadists using Afghanistan as a safe haven.
> 
> The fight against Al-Qaeda was the initial reason for the US-led war that overthrew the Taliban following the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.
> 
> But US public opinion has soured on nearly two decades of war and Trump, after initially being persuaded to reinforce US troops, has said that the United States should not be involved in "endless" war.
> 
> Trump had been uncharacteristically reticent about Afghanistan in recent weeks, with all eyes on whether he would approve a final deal.
> 
> Washington had hoped that a withdrawal of US troops would lead to negotiations between the Taliban and Kabul on a more permanent peace.
> 
> Speaking earlier Saturday in Paris, Defense Secretary Mark Esper said that the United States would only accept a "good deal" with the Taliban -- words welcomed by the government in Kabul.
> 
> But Trump´s abrupt announcement draws a new question mark on whether the United States will leave Afghanistan anytime soon.
> 
> The decision comes weeks before Afghanistan is set to hold elections, an unwieldy exercise even in more stable times.



What a dirty dirty game.


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## araz

Ark_Angel said:


> Only Russian AAMs allowed as of Yet. PAF requested for a radar change(AESA) which the Russians rejected. Ruskies haven’t allowed PLAAF to integrate their own AAMs as of yet on 35s...


That is where the money is and in my thinking the snag with the deal. We can afford the plane somehow but setting up another supply chain for armaments when we have equivalent or better armaments from the Chinese may be a logistical nightmare.
A


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## !eon

Mistakes are tied with every human but the only person now I can believe on this forum is @Khafee
One more honest person here was @Indus Falcon

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## ziaulislam

Avicenna said:


> What a dirty dirty game.


Escalation or deescalation pakistan is needed but we dont have leverage due to our economical condition

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## Trango Towers

!eon said:


> Mistakes are tied with every human but the only person now I can believe on this forum is @Khafee
> One more honest person here was @Indus Falcon


So when si there to be some word on block 70s officially


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## Aamir Hussain

With the latest collapse in talks between Taliban & Washington, the deal seems to be dead in water!!! 

Let us wait n see how we roll with the punches from here on....

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## Trango Towers

Aamir Hussain said:


> With the latest collapse in talks between Taliban & Washington, the deal seems to be dead in water!!!
> 
> Let us wait n see how we roll with the punches from here on....


And there was a deal?????


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## Aamir Hussain

If there was any, it is dead in water as of now or until things get back on track.

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## !eon

Trango Towers said:


> So when si there to be some word on block 70s officially


Never

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## TsAr

Aamir Hussain said:


> With the latest collapse in talks between Taliban & Washington, the deal seems to be dead in water!!!
> 
> Let us wait n see how we roll with the punches from here on....


The USA Centcom chief is here along with a delegation. Negotiations have halted but neither of the parties have backed off or refused to talk.

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## Aamir Hussain

Sir, the deal that was being discussed with CENTCOM Chief is about better Military to Military coordination on the border, and to see where and how US Army can help in supporting the Fencing of the Border (This was asked for in the trip to US my our Chief) and stuff like that.

The Taliban talks are being run by the Afghan Affairs Section in the State Department with Ambassador Khalilzadeh, Secretary of State and Trump himself taking the point on this. That is why Khalilzadeh did not know of the collapse of the talks!!!

Trump and the administration, as per my knowledge, talked about lot of things in vague terms including, possible resumption of limited military aid, support of already in country US Manufactured Assets, extension of US Aid Mission Program, release of the 8 F-16 and the Cobras (after payment of the remaining amount is arranged by Pakistan -- these two items can be the first and the easiest things that can be done signaling change in relationship) upgrade programs possibly targeting the F-16 & the Orion a/c's, release of arrears on CSF but subject to audit being completed which was halted after reimbursements were stopped. This alone can take more than a year to pan out. The in-country team will have to be reformed/hired and sent to Pakistan to conduct audit on the ground as was being done previously. One of my old course mates came to Islamabad to conduct the audit from Dallas who is an ex US Army and now a Financial Consultant.

All of the above or any of the above items being delivered will depend upon the outcome of the US/Talib talks and the final deal that is hammered out. US tends to keep on changing the goal posts from time to time under pressure from the Afghan regime, Talib attacks etc. Therefore, thrashing out a deal between the two, is at best a difficult and time consuming game.

Please do remember, the attacks that came recently came out of a possible goal post change by either of the two parties. Trumps action was and is a tactic to put pressure on the Talibs to wrap up the game under a slightly changed game plan.

Knowing the unreliability of one Mr. Trump, one should not keep ones hopes too high on his promises. And do remember our next door friendly neighbor will do all and some more, in its power to deny any or all of the above mentioned programs.

This my humble representation of the facts as I see them and has nothing to do with disgracing anyone or doubting anyone's view etc.

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## TsAr

Aamir Hussain said:


> Sir, the deal that was being discussed with CENTCOM Chief is about better Military to Military coordination on the border, and to see where and how US Army can help in supporting the Fencing of the Border (This was asked for in the trip to US my our Chief) and stuff like that.
> 
> The Taliban talks are being run by the Afghan Affairs Section in the State Department with Ambassador Khalilzadeh, Secretary of State and Trump himself taking the point on this. That is why Khalilzadeh did not know of the collapse of the talks!!!
> 
> Trump and the administration, as per my knowledge, talked about lot of things in vague terms including, possible resumption of limited military aid, support of already in country US Manufactured Assets, extension of US Aid Mission Program, release of the 8 F-16 and the Cobras (after payment of the remaining amount is arranged by Pakistan -- these two items can be the first and the easiest things that can be done signaling change in relationship) upgrade programs possibly targeting the F-16 & the Orion a/c's, release of arrears on CSF but subject to audit being completed which was halted after reimbursements were stopped. This alone can take more than a year to pan out. The in-country team will have to be reformed/hired and sent to Pakistan to conduct audit on the ground as was being done previously. One of my old course mates came to Islamabad to conduct the audit from Dallas who is an ex US Army and now a Financial Consultant.
> 
> All of the above or any of the above items being delivered will depend upon the outcome of the US/Talib talks and the final deal that is hammered out. US tends to keep on changing the goal posts from time to time under pressure from the Afghan regime, Talib attacks etc. Therefore, thrashing out a deal between the two, is at best a difficult and time consuming game.
> 
> Please do remember, the attacks that came recently came out of a possible goal post change by either of the two parties. Trumps action was and is a tactic to put pressure on the Talibs to wrap up the game under a slightly changed game plan.
> 
> Knowing the unreliability of one Mr. Trump, one should not keep ones hopes too high on his promises. And do remember our next door friendly neighbor will do all and some more, in its power to deny any or all of the above mentioned programs.
> 
> This my humble representation of the facts as I see them and has nothing to do with disgracing anyone or doubting anyone's view etc.


Trump pulling out of negotiations seems to be pressure tactics. He has to deliver what he promised before the next year elections. I am pretty sure that all the parties would be back on the negotiating table very soon.

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## Aamir Hussain

TsAr said:


> Trump pulling out of negotiations seems to be pressure tactics. He has to deliver what he promised before the next year elections. I am pretty sure that all the parties would be back on the negotiating table very soon.


Hope so buddy! Talibs are also pretty edgy at times. T&T on the negotiations table!!!

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## loanranger

What about our f16 s?


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## Dual Wielder

According to SMQ from what I can recall, being on the FAFT grey list alone is costing us $10 billion annually, getting off that should be our priority, want f16's? its like accepting groceries from someone who just burned down your house..

Pakistan should focus on in house development to meet as much of its core defence needs as possible, with partnerships with likeminded countries i.e. Ukraine, China and South Africa.. The f16 are good, but with all the political and economic baggage we will not be able to move forward and progress.. if we can get them from the $9 billion CSF.. then fine.. if they asking for hard cash, tell them to eat sh1t.. we can at least point them to our eastern neighbour, who has an ample supply.

As for the Afghanistan situation.. I'd be cautious, for all we know this so called peace agreement was a ploy, in order to divert our attention from our eastern front, thinking there was ever a chance to end this 20 year genocide. This is probably is just one proxy war of many, to the average person they'd innocently think this only involves parties from Afghanistan, Pakistan and US, but there are big players behind the scenes.. some who are already exposed.. whilst others even our leaders are afraid to call out.. I just hope Pakistan doesn't become yet another pawn in this international game of chess.

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## Vapnope

So basically no F16s and nothing of significance is coming. Pakistan will be left to the wolves to fend off with whatever it has. 
All the players played their cards well and we seem to have no cards in hand. Pretty much sums up this new development.

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## Ark_Angel

araz said:


> That is where the money is and in my thinking the snag with the deal. We can afford the plane somehow but setting up another supply chain for armaments when we have equivalent or better armaments from the Chinese may be a logistical nightmare.
> A


Talks slowed down/halted down in 2018 due to 3 major factors at play:
A) Stringent conditions by JSC Rosoboronexport to pay in Cold Hard Cash in denominations of USD. 
B) Outright Rejection of Pakistani proposal for Radar change(AESA) by a Chinese OEM. 
C) No provision to allow/mating of 3rd Party Sub-Systems/Munitions. 

The deal would have been sealed last year 2017 end-early 2018 before the departure of previous government due to personal interest/persual/expedition by a Senior Govt Actor had it not been for the unreasonable conditions by the JSC Rosoboronexport which made the PAF walk away from the deal then. Factor A could have been catered A in a certain way, but the outright Rejection 
Of Factor B and no flexibility on Factor C broke down the talks.

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## loanranger

Ark_Angel said:


> Talks slowed down/halted down in 2018 due to 3 major factors at play:
> A) Stringent conditions by JSC Rosoboronexport to pay in Cold Hard Cash in denominations of USD.
> B) Outright Rejection of Pakistani proposal for Radar change(AESA) by a Chinese OEM.
> C) No provision to allow/mating of 3rd Party Sub-Systems/Munitions.
> 
> The deal would have been sealed last year 2017 end-early 2018 before the departure of previous government due to personal interest/persual/expedition by a Senior Govt Actor had it not been for the unreasonable conditions by the JSC Rosoboronexport which made the PAF walk away from the deal then. Factor A could have been catered A in a certain way, but the outright Rejection
> Of Factor B and no flexibility on Factor C broke down the talks.


So if talks closed down in 2018 why was this thread opened in 2019 claiming almost confirmed?


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## Ark_Angel

loanranger said:


> So if talks closed down in 2018 why was this thread opened in 2019 claiming almost confirmed?


How old are you buddy???!!! 
With Geo Politics at play situations continuously change! 
Now AF has an urgent req therefore Negotiations are again happening. Let’s see how they turn out.

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## Imran Khan

i heard from my sources our f-16 was takeoff from USA and some of them punctured tires on pacific so they returned back

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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> i heard from my sources our f-16 was takeoff from USA and some of them punctured tires on pacific so they returned back


Kaka.
Teri shaitani nahi jaay gi. Bhai let the kids enjoy a few dreams while the big boys see what is possible. The whole thread is about the possibility of getting more 16s and to be honest it is the most plausible solution to your problems.
A

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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> Kaka.
> Teri shaitani nahi jaay gi. Bhai let the kids enjoy a few dreams while the big boys see what is possible. The whole thread is about the possibility of getting more 16s and to be honest it is the most plausible solution to your problems.
> A


or ye most plausible solution kabhi poora nhi hoga

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## MIRauf

Aamir Hussain, release of which 8 F-16s ? PAF never ordered the 8 F-16s during Pres. Obama so there is nothing to release. US / USAF already gifted 14 F-16 A/B which PAF paid for and BB's Pak Gov't accepted Soybeans instead, PAF didn't want the other 14 from USN as they had been ridden hard.

Now if you mean that deal for 8 F-16-52+ is back then ok, it makes sense.


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## 313ghazi

Gents, remember this is a rumour. Even if true its likely a plot to get us to lever the Taliban towards US demands. 

Even F22 is not worth a prolonged US presence in the region. Get your economic house in order - buy/build what you want.

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## Signalian

It seemed after suffering loss of millions of $$$ to soy beans in 90’s, PAF was going down the lane of bulk order with 75 F-16’s which wasn’t followed up. 

After arrival of 18 new F-16’s, then PAF checked the mood in pentagon with just 8 F-16’s, however get the expected response and request fell through.

Speculated 18-24 F-16 Block 70 could mean that PAF wants more F-16’s but is hesitant to put up a big order or big numbers.

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## Avicenna

Signalian said:


> It seemed after suffering loss of millions of $$$ to soy beans in 90’s, PAF was going down the lane of bulk order with 75 F-16’s which wasn’t followed up.
> 
> After arrival of 18 new F-16’s, then PAF checked the mood in pentagon with just 8 F-16’s, however get the expected response and request fell through.
> 
> Speculated 18-24 F-16 Block 70 could mean that PAF wants more F-16’s but is hesitant to put up a big order or big numbers.









I know I know that Viper carrot looks mighty tasty!

But I wonder what the US would do if all of a sudden PAF decides to induct the J-10C.

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## mingle

If CSF money trickle down along some billions by Pak Govt it would solve short to mid term requirements of our forces. Lets finger crossed 8billion CSF I will put another 8 Billion sweetner make it 16 to 20 billions deal. That would be easy and great sell for Trump and to Congress.

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## DrWatson775

Avicenna said:


> View attachment 578652
> 
> 
> I know I know that Viper carrot looks mighty tasty!
> 
> But I wonder what the US would do if all of a sudden PAF decides to induct the J-10C.



More F16s are most likely tied to peace or a deal in Afghanistan… . and seems the US does not have a clear idea how they want to go by it as the Pentagon and Bolton are dragging their feet and skeptical according to recent news. It is a real possibility that PAF may not get the 16s and may decide against J10s as well leaving Mirages to soldier on till 2030……

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## denel

Imran Khan said:


> or ye most plausible solution kabhi poora nhi hoga


ja. looks like people have had their hopes too high; clear minds can see from far away this was a mirage and false narrative; at least you have Mirages 3/5s to fly with.


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## Imran Khan

denel said:


> ja. looks like people have had their hopes too high; clear minds can see from far away this was a mirage and false narrative; at least you have Mirages 3/5s to fly with.


we have so much to fly on sir lets be honest we are producing more and more jets every month nothing to worry here . yeah dreams will be remain dreams

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## denel

Imran Khan said:


> we have so much to fly on sir lets be honest we are producing more and more jets every month nothing to worry here . yeah dreams will be remain dreams


Correct; getting hung up on rumours vs charting one's own path is folly


----------



## Avicenna

DrWatson775 said:


> More F16s are most likely tied to peace or a deal in Afghanistan… . and seems the US does not have a clear idea how they want to go by it as the Pentagon and Bolton are dragging their feet and skeptical according to recent news. It is a real possibility that PAF may not get the 16s and may decide against J10s as well leaving Mirages to soldier on till 2030……



Agreed about the conditions on any incoming Vipers.

What I am trying to say though is....besides the obvious advantage of the logisitics behind more F-16.....is there any SIGNIFICANT capability differences between a J-10C and a Block 72 F-16?

Clearly Pakistan is being jerked around by the US which is only amplified more so by this administrations utter dysfunction and incompetence as well as the internal turmoil vis a vis Trump's people and deep state.

But why should Pakistan be held hostage to unclear US intentions in Afghanistan.

Why not throw a wrench into Washington's equations and induct the J-10C.

Even the realistic prospect of such a thing might light a fire under Uncle Sam's a##.

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## Vapnope

A country which lacks strategic depth should have an offensive doctrine. It should look for means to push war beyond its border. In case of Pakistan, we proudly tell everyone that to face an enemy 5 times of our size and resources we are going to play defensive with equipment which is not top tier. I understand that PAF has good experience on F16 but time to induct F16 to counter Rafale was 2012 instead we are hoping to get these birds beyond 2019. Our purchases are not proactive, instead these are reactionary approaches.

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## ZedZeeshan

Pakistan rather go for small and medium high tech arms.. rather then big toys...


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## Aamir Hussain

MIRauf said:


> Aamir Hussain, release of which 8 F-16s ? PAF never ordered the 8 F-16s during Pres. Obama so there is nothing to release. US / USAF already gifted 14 F-16 A/B which PAF paid for and BB's Pak Gov't accepted Soybeans instead, PAF didn't want the other 14 from USN as they had been ridden hard.
> 
> Now if you mean that deal for 8 F-16-52+ is back then ok, it makes sense.



I was talking about the eight that we were paying albeit partially and rest through USG funding out of an option of 18 a/c.

The deal you are talking about was dead and buried about three decades back!!


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## Muhammad Omar

Su-35 didn't came nor will these F-16's block 70 

Just buy up J-10 to replace Mirage Rose and invest in J-31 for JV we don't have many options available

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## Pakistani Fighter

Muhammad Omar said:


> Su-35 didn't came nor will these F-16's block 70
> 
> Just buy up J-10 to replace Mirage Rose and invest in J-31 for JV we don't have many options available


J10Cs are long gone. Forget about those


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## Basel

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> J10Cs are long gone. Forget about those



Why??

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## denel

Muhammad Omar said:


> Su-35 didn't came nor will these F-16's block 70
> 
> Just buy up J-10 to replace Mirage Rose and invest in J-31 for JV we don't have many options available


no j-10s role will be for air superiority. jf17s were to replace m3/5


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## Pakistansdefender

Ab yeah thread band hi ker do . 
Yeah na Ana ke ab.

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## Basel

@The Eagle please close this thread till arrival of F-16s.

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## Khan Sahab

Another pipedream comes to an end. What's next? EuroFighter T3?. 

Pakistan should stick to JF-17 Block-3 and hope for some extra used F-16s and hedge on the fruition of Project Azm.

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## jupiter2007

Khan Sahab said:


> Another pipedream comes to an end. What's next? EuroFighter T3?.
> 
> Pakistan should stick to JF-17 Block-3 and hope for some extra used F-16s and hedge on the fruition of Project Azm.



There is still a chance for surplus F-16s, if they come it will be a bonus. We should not expect anything from USA for free or without conditions. 
We should focus on JF-17 block 3 and increase the production from 20 to 40 per year. 
There is more chance of getting J-16 than F-16 Block 70.


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## Silicon0000

People who are thinking to get some other aircraft in place of F16, should know that we are getting these on US money and not on our money. We don't have any money to buy J10 to J16 to Su35 to Mig35 to Eurofighter to what so ever. 

What ever money we have is only good for JF17 B3 and then Project Azm.



Basel said:


> @The Eagle please close this thread till arrival of F-16s.



I think that's the right thing to do (although it will disappoint fanboys and dreamers) at least till there is a public announcement for the done deal.

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## ziaulislam

Silicon0000 said:


> People who are thinking to get some other aircraft in place of F16, should know that we are getting these on US money and not on our money. We don't have any money to buy J10 to J16 to Su35 to Mig35 to Eurofighter to what so ever.
> 
> What ever money we have is only good for JF17 B3 and then Project Azm.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's the right thing to do (although it will disappoint fanboys and dreamers) at least till there is a public announcement for the done deal.


Either PAF Doesnt want used aircraft 
Or
Usa wont allow it

If its the later case than the chances of getting any f16 aircrafts is low anyway


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## denel

Basel said:


> @The Eagle please close this thread till arrival of F-16s.


I second this!.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Bolton has got fired!!! Another twist in the positive direction....

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## Max Pain

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Bolton has got fired!!! Another twist in the positive direction....


Hows that positive new?
was he a hurdle in our F16 deal?


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## denel

Max Pain said:


> Hows that positive new?
> was he a hurdle in our F16 deal?


Correct, there is no relevance. TiT has his mind made up long back not to give anything to Pak. It is a pity people are following his words and guestures no different than beggers. Have a back bone friends.


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## ZAC1

if something will come first then its the helis...f16 Naa


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## Super Falcon

Since afghan talks are over no F 16 for pakistan trump administration can u turn any time

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## MIRauf

Aamir Hussain said:


> I was talking about the eight that we were paying albeit partially and rest through USG funding out of an option of 18 a/c.
> 
> The deal you are talking about was dead and buried about three decades back!!



Thank you for the clarification, however the deal you are talking about never happened as Pak / PAF walked away from it, thus there is nothing to release, offer ended / expired / went to bit bucket. Now if Pak /PAF signs the deal for the 8 Block-52s today / near future then that be silly as the newer variant is available and should be sought par US Gov't approval.

Any way, I would be very happy for PAF if they could pick up more F-16s ( new &/ used. )


----------



## denel

Super Falcon said:


> Since afghan talks are over no F 16 for pakistan trump administration can u turn any time


Said it from beginning, there is no f-16s; get over it our members here; focus on Blk3.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Max Pain said:


> Hows that positive new?
> was he a hurdle in our F16 deal?


It's all up to how Pak negotiates the Afgan peace deal the President badly needs to show to the US Deep Nation, who knows it too well their Deep State has already sold them short with all the premiums, bonuses etc. exclusively going to the deep bottomless pockets of the "chosen" few ....


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## TsAr

Max Pain said:


> Hows that positive new?
> was he a hurdle in our F16 deal?


He was a hardliner and was against pullout from Afghanistan. Trump has also signaled that he might talk to Iranian President which Bolton was against. Bolton was also India centric so its good in some sense that he is no more.

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## The Eagle

denel said:


> Correct, there is no relevance. TiT has his mind made up long back not to give anything to Pak. It is a pity people are following his words and guestures no different than beggers.  Have a back bone friends.



Even if I mistake certain things, I wouldn't do that. 

Regards,

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## imadul

This thread should be closed. This is not cold war era. Pakistan is no more US ally neither US needs Pakistan for anything besides Afghanistan withdrawal. At most spare parts can come. No chance whatsoever for blk70. Vipere!!! Very slim chance if Pakistan can deliver per US requirements, which Pakistan not in a position and now talks stopped for a long time.

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## Trailer23

*- CLOSE THE THREAD -
- CLOSE THE THREAD -*
*- CLOSE THE THREAD -*

That's all that seems to be on everyone's mind - or so it may seem for _some_.

What I fail to understand is why is this Topic such a bother for _those_...

a. The F-16's are coming.
b. The F-16's are NOT coming.
c. Not confirmed if F-16's are coming.
d. Used F-16 are coming...maybe not coming.
e. Afghan Peace Process collapsed - so most certainly not coming.
f. ...no wait, _John Bolton_ FIRED - so its a positive sign that they're still coming.

Clearly its one of the most trending Topics we have (_currently_). I thought the basic purpose of PDF was discussion, expressing your views, opinions and the occasional banter.

Here it feels out right demands to please a _few_ voices. Its a clickable option, people. No one is forcing you to open the page. Just ignore it how I ignore the Topic: ************ and move on***.

What's really sad is that (_some_) come, read...all the posts and then go...
*- CLOSE THE THREAD -
- CLOSE THE THREAD -*
*- CLOSE THE THREAD -

**a lite term for a rather vulgar thought - not be expressed on PDF.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If it happens it happens will take 1-2 years of negotiation no doubt , if it happens


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## DrWatson775

Avicenna said:


> Agreed about the conditions on any incoming Vipers.
> 
> What I am trying to say though is....besides the obvious advantage of the logisitics behind more F-16.....is there any SIGNIFICANT capability differences between a J-10C and a Block 72 F-16?
> 
> Clearly Pakistan is being jerked around by the US which is only amplified more so by this administrations utter dysfunction and incompetence as well as the internal turmoil vis a vis Trump's people and deep state.
> 
> But why should Pakistan be held hostage to unclear US intentions in Afghanistan.
> 
> Why not throw a wrench into Washington's equations and induct the J-10C.
> 
> Even the realistic prospect of such a thing might light a fire under Uncle Sam's a##.



Skeptical of any new F16s even if the Afghan deal is reached… as signing a piece of paper and implementation are two different things (and Pak is easily blamed) but time will tell. Not sure about J10s but Paf has evaluated it and they may prefer F16s avionics in addition to other factors. They seem more confident in capabilities of future blocks of JF17s than whats on paper/advertised publicly which is another factor in decision making. Obviously not all capabilities are public; at least one would think so.

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## Flight of falcon

Trailer23 said:


> *- CLOSE THE THREAD -
> - CLOSE THE THREAD -
> - CLOSE THE THREAD -*
> 
> That's all that seems to be on everyone's mind - or so it may seem for _some_.
> 
> What I fail to understand is why is this Topic such a bother for _those_...
> 
> a. The F-16's are coming.
> b. The F-16's are NOT coming.
> c. Not confirmed if F-16's are coming.
> d. Used F-16 are coming...maybe not coming.
> e. Afghan Peace Process collapsed - so most certainly not coming.
> f. ...no wait, _John Bolton_ FIRED - so its a positive sign that they're still coming.
> 
> Clearly its one of the most trending Topics we have (_currently_). I thought the basic purpose of PDF was discussion, expressing your views, opinions and the occasional banter.
> 
> Here it feels out right demands to please a _few_ voices. Its a clickable option, people. No one is forcing you to open the page. Just ignore it how I ignore the Topic: ************ and move on***.
> 
> What's really sad is that (_some_) come, read...all the posts and then go...
> *- CLOSE THE THREAD -
> - CLOSE THE THREAD -
> - CLOSE THE THREAD -
> 
> **a lite term for a rather vulgar thought - not be expressed on PDF.




For those whose hemeroids itch so bad then why do you even come on this thread?

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## ali_raza

denel said:


> Said it from beginning, there is no f-16s; get over it our members here; focus on Blk3.


i respect u soo much but i beg to differ 
soo kuch is going on behind scenes

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## Aamir Hussain

Afghan problem does not go away with the signing of the "Deal." There will be implementation challenges, milestones to be met, alignment of all factions of Taliabn to adhere to the deal, sabotage by the Afghan Government, Indian and Iranian maneuvering, the list goes on. 

If one looks at the deals being contemplated on this thread and their long delivery timelines and the above scenario, anything and all from the above noted challenges can derail the ordering, production, & delivery of the goods in question.

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## ali_raza

Aamir Hussain said:


> Afghan problem does not go away with the signing of the "Deal." There will be implementation challenges, milestones to be met, alignment of all factions of Taliabn to adhere to the deal, sabotage by the Afghan Government, Indian and Iranian maneuvering, the list goes on.
> 
> If one looks at the deals being contemplated on this thread and their long delivery timelines and the above scenario, anything and all from the above noted challenges can derail the ordering, production, & delivery of the goods in question.


then the good news is we are not just looked at from afghan prism.
we have soo much more to play with


----------



## denel

ali_raza said:


> i respect u soo much but i beg to differ
> soo kuch is going on behind scenes


Let us see. time is a measure of achievement. Frankly better to stay away from f-16s. Focus on Blk 3 and next Gen.

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## Mav3rick

Goodness gracious, this thread is still going????

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> Let us see. time is a measure of achievement. Frankly better to stay away from f-16s. Focus on Blk 3 and next Gen.


Or better get A-Darter along with a an HMS and do a BVR JV with SA.


----------



## denel

Mav3rick said:


> Goodness gracious, this thread is still going????


amazing is it not;


MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Or better get A-Darter along with a an HMS and do a BVR JV with SA.


Yes it is available; as noted Pak leadership needs to push for this engagement.


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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> Yes it is available; as noted Pak leadership needs to push for this engagement.


I can't find any Ans for not doing JV's with SA.Even a lay man like me knows that we would gain pounds by spending pennies in these JV's.

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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> I can't find any Ans for not doing JV's with SA.Even a lay man like me knows that we would gain pounds by spending pennies in these JV's.


yes absolutely

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## Trango Towers

this is the worst thread on PDF....total hot air. zero substance and 178 pages

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## PakShaheen79

Trango Towers said:


> this is the worst thread on PDF....total hot air. zero substance and 178 pages



Dil ke kush karnay ko bhi koi samaan hona chahiye.

(There must be something to cheer up our hearts)

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## war&peace

Trango Towers said:


> this is the worst thread on PDF....total hot air. zero substance and 178 pages


Kiyon bhai kiyon... yeh zulum kiyon..
hum par ye zulum kiyon hain... aur koi khushi ki khabar nahin aa rahi tu aakkhir .....
BTW, what happened to Zulus? When are we getting



denel said:


> Correct, there is no relevance. *TiT* has his mind made up long back not to give anything to Pak. It is a pity people are following his words and guestures no different than beggers. Have a back bone friends.


Who is TiT?

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## denel

war&peace said:


> Kiyon bhai kiyon... yeh zulum kiyon..
> hum par ye zulum kiyon hain... aur koi khushi ki khabar nahin aa rahi tu aakkhir .....
> BTW, what happened to Zulus? When are we getting
> 
> 
> Who is TiT?


- after our uncle TiM - That Idiot Mugabe; TiT - That Idiot Trump.

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## CHI RULES

denel said:


> - after our uncle TiM - That Idiot Mugabe; TiT - That Idiot Trump.



Sir perhaps you shall also be agreed that Trump is the most active and sharp leader so far USA has got. He has created jobs and opportunities for own nation and if he agrees at any matter than job is done in no time. Pakistan may get some favorable surprises from him if he is dealt properly, he may bypass congress and other hurdles.

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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> Sir perhaps you shall also be agreed that Trump is the most active and sharp leader so far USA has got. He has created jobs and opportunities for own nation and if he agrees at any matter than job is done in no time. Pakistan may get some favorable surprises from him if he is dealt properly, he may bypass congress and other hurdles.


On handling of CHina, that is the only one aspect I agree with him on. Nothing else thereafter - he is idiotic and severe dotard.


----------



## Counter-Errorist

CHI RULES said:


> Sir perhaps you shall also be agreed that Trump is the most active and sharp leader so far USA has got. He has created jobs and opportunities for own nation and if he agrees at any matter than job is done in no time. Pakistan may get some favorable surprises from him if he is dealt properly, he may bypass congress and other hurdles.


I thought this thread was bad enough, then I see this...

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

We Pakistanis love to dwell on Fancy Dreams,so no one should disturb us yet. It will probably take another 200 pages to finally wake us up.

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## Wolf

Close the thread with the hope of J10 C. Because "one in hand is worth two in the bush".

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## Humble Analyst

Wolf said:


> Close the thread with the hope of J10 C. Because "one in hand is worth two in the bush".


Right now nothing in hand or bush


----------



## Indus Pakistan

"_PAF F16-Blk70 possibly coming_" Wonder how many bottles of Vodka would it take to give this hallucination?

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Indus Pakistan said:


> "_PAF F16-Blk70 possibly coming_" Wonder how many bottles of Vodka would it take to give this hallucination?


No need of Vodka only the thought would be enough. 
179 pages without conformation speaks volumes.

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## denel

Indus Pakistan said:


> "_PAF F16-Blk70 possibly coming_" Wonder how many bottles of Vodka would it take to give this hallucination?


Local mampoer you see pink elephants when you reach the rubicon of consiousness; this is what this thread was about. Come hither and i will give you real preska mampoer - 90% vol - guaranteed to give you real pink elephant experience vs virtual.

https://www.traveller24.com/MyTrave...r-makes-worlds-strongest-drinks-list-20170313

Mampoer i am referring is made by my pal locally at his farm; 90%+ - yes he lost his mustache while drinking a shot - yes - he had a smoke pipe going a flame leaped over and an afterburner on mampoer got his mustache. No pink elephant that day

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## NA71

page 179 is almost finished.....

RAF's Tornados F3/ADV in back shelters now....may be good choice for stop gap arrangement....twin engine ..decent A2G capabilities and long endurance. Above all we might get 24 /36 nos. in cheap price tag.

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## CHI RULES

Khafee said:


> 1)PAF will be getting 18~24 *NEW* Blk70 or 72's for now.
> 
> 2)The current fleet will be upgraded to "V" specs. All of them.
> Depending on the condition of the air-frame, some or all, will go through SLEP to 12k hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Breaking News, is a gift for all those people who stood by me, when I was unfairly banned. Thank You!


Sir any change in your stance or still there are chances for PAF to get V upgrade.


----------



## nomi007

News are circulating that Saudi arabia offer financial support for the purchase of 36 F-16s blk70 if we support them against Iran


----------



## The Eagle

nomi007 said:


> News are circulating that Saudi arabia offer financial support for the purchase of 36 F-16s blk70 if we support them against Iran



that circulating area must be earning some good money for such stories.

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## Path-Finder

nomi007 said:


> News are circulating that Saudi arabia offer financial support for the purchase of 36 F-16s blk70 if we support them against Iran


After the damage they received I dont think their priority is to doll out.

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## Indus Pakistan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> No need of Vodka only the thought would be enough.
> 179 pages without conformation speaks volumes.


The sad part is not the original claim. Anybody can have *delusions*. But the sad part is and the reflection of either immaturity or low intellect floating in PDF that this thread has hit 179 pages. The delusion of one member turned into mass orgasm. 

All without even shred of evidence !

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## Maarkhoor

Indus Pakistan said:


> The sad part is not the original claim. Anybody can have *delusions*. But the sad part is and the reflection of either immaturity or low intellect floating in PDF that this thread has hit 179 pages. The delusion of one member turned into mass orgasm.
> 
> All without even shred of evidence !


They have offered us with some conditions....It is not delusion at all..

@Khafee

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## B.K.N

Indus Pakistan said:


> All without even shred of evidence


If Pakistan practically supports arabs then Pakistan can get a lot of weapons but some Pakistanis won't like it

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## Trango Towers

As per this thread. We will have f16 with lasers and photo torpedoes. This is a thread like indin BS. Not a shread of truth in it. What a shame


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> News are circulating that Saudi arabia offer financial support for the purchase of 36 F-16s blk70 if we support them against Iran


Get F35 then.

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## Indus Pakistan

Brass Knuckles said:


> If Pakistan *practically supports* arabs then Pakistan can get a lot of weapons but some Pakistanis won't like it


Few points you need to mull over -


Arabs do not produce any weapons, least of all F-16s
Gulf Arabs do however have access to massive petrodollars. Meaning economic bonanza.
Gulf Arabs have chosen India as the primary beneficiary of their economic bonanza over and above Pakistan.
This is via jobs, investments etc which provides India with $10s of billions ever year
What* practical support *has India given to Gulf Arabs to earn this windfall? 

Have Indian soldiers fought in Yemen?
Has India threatened Iran?



Maarkhoor said:


> They have offered us with some conditions....It is not delusion at all..


Okay. *Source please?*

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## B.K.N

Indus Pakistan said:


> Few points you need to mull over -


We Pakistanis don't care what your beloved Indians or gangus are doing

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## VCheng

Indus Pakistan said:


> The sad part is not the original claim. Anybody can have *delusions*. But the sad part is and the reflection of either immaturity or low intellect floating in PDF that this thread has hit 179 pages. The delusion of one member turned into mass orgasm.
> 
> All without even shred of evidence !



And yet the thread continues. Quite intriguing, to say the least.


----------



## danger007

Brass Knuckles said:


> We Pakistanis don't care what your beloved Indians or gangus are doing




pretty much Indians can find similar names to call you... grow up first...



Trango Towers said:


> As per this thread. We will have f16 with lasers and photo torpedoes. This is a thread like indin BS. Not a shread of truth in it. What a shame




this is your bs, better stop dragging India or Indians ...


----------



## B.K.N

danger007 said:


> pretty much Indians can find similar names to call you... grow up first...


You can call us by any name
i don't care


----------



## Arsalan 345

After 370 and new Kashmir problem,I don't see this as reality.i think there was offer but no peace deal which means everything is over.anyway pakistan shouldn't buy more american systems.


----------



## Maarkhoor

Indus Pakistan said:


> Okay. *Source please?*


Give me source / reason for your existence?


----------



## ziaulislam

nomi007 said:


> News are circulating that Saudi arabia offer financial support for the purchase of 36 F-16s blk70 if we support them against Iran


And open up another front...hmm unless saudis get uncle sam and remove the iranian govt..no not worth it..
Diplomatically we should be on saudi side as clearly iran has remained pro indians
Behind the back yeah but no boots on ground

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> And open up another front...hmm unless saudis get uncle sam and remove the iranian govt..no not worth it..
> Diplomatically we should be on saudi side as clearly iran has remained pro indians
> Behind the back yeah but no boots on ground


Pak8stan has a pact with Saudi Arabia where any aggression on SAUDI SOIL would be considered as an attack on PKistan and we will defend to safeguard Saudi state integrity. We are however not a part of their adventures out of their own lands wnd those should be left ofrcthem to sort out. The Saudis will mot attack Iran contrary to their claims. Pakistan on the other hand will not fight the Saudis war for them.
A

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> News are circulating that Saudi arabia offer financial support for the purchase of 36 F-16s blk70 if we support them against Iran


It's fake News



ziaulislam said:


> And open up another front...hmm unless saudis get uncle sam and remove the iranian govt..no not worth it..
> Diplomatically we should be on saudi side as clearly iran has remained pro indians
> Behind the back yeah but no boots on ground


Who is sending boots on ground? Mention one country???

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## New World

NA71 said:


> page 179 is almost finished.....
> 
> RAF's Tornados F3/ADV in back shelters now....may be good choice for stop gap arrangement....twin engine ..decent A2G capabilities and long endurance. Above all we might get 24 /36 nos. in cheap price tag.



UK, KSA, Italy and Germany have Tornadoes and most of them are retired... 

NOTE: F-16 and Tornado were introduced in same year..

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## Haris Ali2140

New World said:


> UK, KSA, Italy and Germany have Tornadoes and most of them are retired...
> 
> NOTE: F-16 and Tornado were introduced in same year..


But the problem is we have mastered the f-16. we have overhaul facilities and whole infrastructure.


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## New World

@Khafee @Zarvan @ACE OF THE AIR @denel 

at the end of this video, AAM were installed over the wings of Tornado. is that possible to install AAM over the wings?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

F16 V deal would be a good offer but we will need some announcement and agreement announced the whole USA dialog failure in Afghanistan puts a downcast, however, Pakistan has done what we could to help bring an end to the crisis in Afghanistan

USA-Pakistan, have the same understanding on the matter, and F16V deal moves the relations back to normality

Release of Pakistan Army's Coalition Support Fund would be a great milestone

In last 6-8 Month it appears, that USA is finally appreciative of Pakistan's role, in general, to assist with Anti Terrorism efforts for the last 20 years

If stuff has been reported it must have been honestly discussed in all fairness and mutual understanding for peace in afghan region


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## Gripen9

New World said:


> @Khafee @Zarvan @ACE OF THE AIR @denel
> 
> at the end of this video, AAM were installed over the wings of Tornado. is that possible to install AAM over the wings?


That was Jaguar not Tornado.
Jaguar has over the wing rails for Aim9/magic aams

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## loanranger

Someone on pdf posted some link of the US DoD the other day of f16 engine upgrade tenders in the name of Pakistan and other countries and one other item... funny how none is talking about that

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## Bratva

loanranger said:


> Someone on pdf posted some link of the US DoD the other day of f16 engine upgrade tenders in the name of Pakistan and other countries and one other item... funny how none is talking about that



Can u share the link ?


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## loanranger

Bratva said:


> Can u share the link ?


Ill try to find it. It was on the contract section of US Dept of Defence site. There are new contracts everyday. So have to read through each day...


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## loanranger

Bratva said:


> Can u share the link ?


https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1956513/

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/1911093/

Airforce

United Technologies Corp., doing business as Pratt & Whitney Military Engines, East Hartford, Connecticut, has been awarded a $253,708,434 indefinite-delivery-requirements contract for engine module remanufacture. This contract provides for F100-PW-100/-200/-220/-220E/-229/-229EEP engine module remanufacture for Foreign Military Sales (FMS) partner countries. Work will be performed at East Hartford, Connecticut; Midland, Georgia; and Midwest City, Oklahoma, and is expected to be completed by July 30, 2024. This contract involves foreign military sales to Chile, Indonesia, Taiwan, Poland, Greece, Iraq, Pakistan, Romania, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Thailand and Morocco. No funds are being obligated at the time of award. This award is the result of a sole source acquisition. The Air Force Sustainment Center, Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma, is the contracting activity (FA8121-19-D-0005).

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## Yaseen1

I think instead of depending on F16s we should diversify our fighter jets and get new more capable jets,f16 is not some invincible jet and after s400 and rafale it will be difficult to depend only on f16,in 1996 turkish f16 was shot down by mirage 2000 of greece so we should focus on other options also to better counter threats with low cost


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## Trailer23

Yaseen1 said:


> I think instead of depending on F16s we should diversify our fighter jets and get new more capable jets,f16 is not some invincible jet and after s400 and rafale it will be difficult to depend only on f16,in 1996 turkish f16 was shot down by mirage 2000 of greece so we should focus on other options also to better counter threats with low cost


Okay...

As discussed over a 1000 times in the past, what options do you have?
-Rafales
-Gripen NG
-EuroFighter
-and the Ruski trash.

New type (used) means we gotta start from scratch. Training (Pilots & Engineering), Spares, Weapons etc.

The reference you've given for the S-400, well it appears that even the mighty F-22 (Raptor) & the poor man's Raptor, the F-35 don't stand a chance against it. So that debate should be set aside.

As for the Rafale, it'll take India years to master it. They still haven't mastered the Su-30MKi - so good luck to 'em.

We on the other hand have mastered the F-16 for decades & upgraded versions of 'em are plenty for the next couple of decades.

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## Yaseen1

i think mirage2000 is also good option for low cost instead of acquiring old f16s for high price,we should go for chinese stealth jets and indigenous double engine heavy version of jf17 if russia agree to manufacture jets in Pakistan we should go for su35,su34 or mig35


Trailer23 said:


> Okay...
> 
> As discussed over a 1000 times in the past, what options do you have?
> -Rafales
> -Gripen NG
> -EuroFighter
> -and the Ruski trash.
> 
> New type (used) means we gotta start from scratch. Training (Pilots & Engineering), Spares, Weapons etc.
> 
> The reference you've given for the S-400, well it appears that even the mighty F-22 (Raptor) & the poor man's Raptor, the F-35 don't stand a chance against it. So that debate should be set aside.
> 
> As for the Rafale, it'll take India years to master it. They still haven't mastered the Su-30MKi - so good luck to 'em.
> 
> We on the other hand have mastered the F-16 for decades & upgraded versions of 'em are plenty for the next couple of decades.


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## Haris Ali2140

Yaseen1 said:


> i think mirage2000 is also good option for low cost instead of acquiring old f16s for high price


The production of mirage has been stopped. So,spares will be an issue.There are not many users of M-2000 like M 3/5. Old f-16s have options for upgradation.


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## Yaseen1

mirage 2000 may be used as temporary solution until our economy becomes better and many arab nations and india is operating this jets and india has used israeli weapon on it in balakot strikes so it seems flexible jet


Haris Ali2140 said:


> The production of mirage has been stopped. So,spares will be an issue.There are not many users of M-2000 like M 3/5. Old f-16s have options for upgradation.


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## Haris Ali2140

Yaseen1 said:


> mirage 2000 may be used as temporary solution until our economy becomes better and many arab nations and india is operating this jets and india has used israeli weapon on it in balakot strikes so it seems flexible jet


You are talking about procuring a jet not a car. And there are no temporary solution for a cash strapped air force.


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## Yaseen1

Whatsoever the matter is ,it is not easy to shot down f16 in air to air combat,I am impressed by mirage 2000 because it has demonstrated this capability in actual combat 


Haris Ali2140 said:


> You are talking about procuring a jet not a car. And there are no temporary solution for a cash strapped air force.


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## GriffinsRule

Also used Mirages are higher cost than used F-16s

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## PakShaheen79

OK. This has turned old now. How about starting a similar threat with Typhoons or Su-35?

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## Yaseen1

I think mirage provide greater flexibility for weapons system and it can carry raad cruise missiles,we can also integrate chinese bvr missiles with it,f16 is much limited in weapons and requires u.s permission for every upgrade 


GriffinsRule said:


> Also used Mirages are higher cost than used F-16s


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## Haris Ali2140

Yaseen1 said:


> I think mirage provide greater flexibility for weapons system and it can carry raad cruise missiles,we can also integrate chinese bvr missiles with it,f16 is much limited in weapons and requires u.s permission for every upgrade


No chinese integration with west can take place.


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## Yaseen1

I have not seen any chinese weapon or antiship missiles on our f16 yet,all such weapons are mostly integrated with jf17


Haris Ali2140 said:


> No chinese integration with west can take place.


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## Haris Ali2140

Yaseen1 said:


> I have not seen any chinese weapon or antiship missiles on our f16 yet,all such weapons are mostly integrated with jf17


??????????


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Yaseen1 said:


> I think mirage provide greater flexibility for weapons system and it can carry raad cruise missiles,we can also integrate chinese bvr missiles with it,f16 is much limited in weapons and requires u.s permission for every upgrade


watch this and try to understand SUPER MIRAGE F1

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## Trailer23

Yaseen1 said:


> Whatsoever the matter is ,it is not easy to shot down f16 in air to air combat,I am impressed by mirage 2000 because it has demonstrated this capability in actual combat


What, you're not impressed by the capabilities of the F-16 & destruction they caused to the IAF earlier in Feb.?

We're already getting (used) Mirages from Egypt. Now, they too can fulfill the task a Mirage 2000 could.

Find a solution for Air-to-Air combat. And someone pointed out earlier...where do you intend on getting spares from.

The Mirage wasn't built on the F-16 tech of Block-building.


Yaseen1 said:


> if russia agree to manufacture jets in Pakistan we should go for su35,su34 or mig35


Okay, aur Russia ke saas (India) ko kon mannay-ga?

For all the Members who dream of having Russian equipment need to understand that Russian Jets will be last option..., if possible.

Imagine we strike a deal with Russia. India stays quite. Occasionally opposes the deal between PAK-RUS. We make some sort of payment. A couple of years later when time has passed, India decides to (finally) jump in & everything goes to hell.

When push comes to shove, where do you think Russia's loyalty will be to? Does anyone here think that Pakistan will pick a fight with Russia? No. I didn't think so.

Conclusion: Fast Forward 2-3 Years from now (2021/2022)... Money/Time - GONE. And now here we are on PDF debating what are other options are and/or could have been back in 2019.

So India has gone ahead and got all of their 36 Rafales. Around 19 MiG-29's & added a few Su-30MKi from HAL.

What did PAF do? Oh we added a few JF-17 Block III and eh...well...ummm...jack sh!t.

Think smart. We almost have zero diplomatic ties with Russia. And please don't give me the JF-17 engines are Russian.

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## M.Kamran_Pak

I


Yaseen1 said:


> I have not seen any chinese weapon or antiship missiles on our f16 yet,all such weapons are mostly integrated with jf17


It's not about Integration rather "user end agreements" where US don't allow modifications. Even a country need to obtain permission if they want to sell used F-16 or other US aircrafts.

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## Silicon0000

*New title for this group.....*

*PAF F16-Blk70 possibly coming - JUST A KHAFEE JOKE & FANBOYS DREAM*

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## NA71

New World said:


> UK, KSA, Italy and Germany have Tornadoes and most of them are retired...
> 
> NOTE: F-16 and Tornado were introduced in same year..


Yes, it will be best available option ...if Tornados are modified to carry multiple Antiship CM like CM-400AKG and C-802....

Also a reliable A2G platform....Pakistanis are familiar with the system and have flown them frequently in Saudi AF.

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## Basel

Maarkhoor said:


> They have offered us with some conditions....It is not delusion at all..
> 
> @Khafee



Getting F-16s with KSA support will be stupid thing to do, if KSA is ready to finance fighter jets then get EFTs latest trench as it will give better capability to PAF and will allow better working relationship with KSA air force.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

We are on page 183 and the mental mas...n saga still continues.


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## SABRE

Basel said:


> Getting F-16s with KSA support will be stupid thing to do, if KSA is ready to finance fighter jets then get EFTs latest trench as it will give better capability to PAF and will allow better working relationship with KSA air force.



Such a transaction might come with an added commitment by Pakistan to participate - directly or indirectly - in a possible war against Iran. In the long run the cost of such transactions could outweigh the benefits.

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## hussain0216

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> We are on page 183 and the mental mas...n saga still continues.



I wish it to be noted that I pointed this out on page 4!


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## Maarkhoor

Basel said:


> Getting F-16s with KSA support will be stupid thing to do, if KSA is ready to finance fighter jets then get EFTs latest trench as it will give better capability to PAF and will allow better working relationship with KSA air force.


Double engine double expense, PAF is more interested in F-16 reasons are obvious further EFT's are not as good as F-16 since we know much more about F-16 and their maintenance...if we induct another platform we need many years and more expense to induct new platform....

Block 70 already and overkill over Indians....

What American thinks if they gave us more F-16 we will F@ck India which will lead to nuclear war.

@James David @Khafee

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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> Getting F-16s with KSA support will be stupid thing to do, if KSA is ready to finance fighter jets then get EFTs latest trench as it will give better capability to PAF and will allow better working relationship with KSA air force.


f16s will still be better cost wise but depends whther we get aim120d,aim9x with b70


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## ziaulislam

*Vietnam May Request F-16s, P-3 Orions From US*
By: Wendell Minnick   May 25, 2016

TAIPEI, Taiwan — With the lifting of the US arms embargo to Vietnam, a US defense industry source indicates Hanoi is seeking to improve its air defense and maritime security capabilities with the procurement of F-16 fighter aircraft from the US Pentagon's excess defense articles (EDA) program and refurbished P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, armed with torpedoes.
*On the F-16 EDA, they want the same deal the Obama administration gave Indonesia.*


--------------------

with trump not eager to through money, we not having hard cash and hostile congress this is probably the only possibility *if at all *


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## Maarkhoor

doorstar said:


> NOT selling Pakistan conventional arms will be the cause of nuclear war. moronic injun lobbying to prevent Pakistan from getting F-16s will put Pakistan against the wall.


8 F-16 ready to deliver but they need hard money......if you have money you can buy tomorrow 8 block F-16 52+....plus other goodies.

They don't want we gave them back their own aid money to buy their stuff or soft loans.

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## GriffinsRule

Maarkhoor said:


> 8 F-16 ready to deliver but they need hard money......if you have money you can buy tomorrow 8 block F-16 52+....plus other goodies.
> 
> They don't want we gave them back their own aid money to buy their stuff or soft loans.



Actually that is exactly what they want. Unless you think they want us to use their aid/soft loans to buy Russian or Chinese weapons? The issue is they don't want to release the money owed to Pakistan for CSF and Pakistan is not willing to spend money outside of that on US weapons.

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## ziaulislam

Maarkhoor said:


> 8 F-16 ready to deliver but they need hard money......if you have money you can buy tomorrow 8 block F-16 52+....plus other goodies.
> 
> They don't want we gave them back their own aid money to buy their stuff or soft loans.


as i said PAF would rather get 2 squadrons of thunders or put money in project azm rather than paying a billion dollars for 8 block 52..this is true for most countries ..the reason why everyone is looking at EDA/used f16s

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## mingle

Basel said:


> Getting F-16s with KSA support will be stupid thing to do, if KSA is ready to finance fighter jets then get EFTs latest trench as it will give better capability to PAF and will allow better working relationship with KSA air force.


Blk 70 is a great plane with price of 28 typhoons we can have Atleast 50 F16s. It's totally different plane except shape and outer side.


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## Viper27

Maarkhoor said:


> 8 F-16 ready to deliver but they need hard money......if you have money you can buy tomorrow 8 block F-16 52+....plus other goodies.
> 
> They don't want we gave them back their own aid money to buy their stuff or soft loans.



What exactly do you mean by "buy them tomorrow"? Lets say we did have the money..it would still take at least one year or more to fulfill that order. Or are you referring to used Block 52s we can take from USAF stocks?


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## Maarkhoor

Viper27 said:


> What exactly do you mean by "buy them tomorrow"? Lets say we did have the money..*it would still take at least one year or more to fulfill that order. Or are you referring to used Block 52s we can take from USAF stocks?*


They already build them....if few hours used we must not care....

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## Path-Finder

ziaulislam said:


> as i said PAF would rather get 2 squadrons of thunders or put money in project azm rather than paying a billion dollars for 8 block 52..this is true for most countries ..the reason why everyone is looking at EDA/used f16s



My opinion is that PAF is moving away from F16's as further block JF's become available. The fact PAF can keep F16's going with any OEM input means that they have enough know how and access to spares that PAF doesn't seem too bothered by any sanction.

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## Viper27

Wouldn't it be more economical for Pakistan to acquire some stored F-16s from the Boneyard and get them upgraded to V standard?

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## mingle

Viper27 said:


> Wouldn't it be more economical for Pakistan to acquire some stored F-16s from the Boneyard and get them upgraded to V standard?


Yanks won't do until we buy more new ones along.


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## Trailer23

Viper27 said:


> Wouldn't it be more economical for Pakistan to acquire some stored F-16s from the Boneyard and get them upgraded to V standard?


Those are some old sh!t F-16's that probably flown in Desert Storm & Operation Enduring Freedom (Iraq/Afghanistan). The cost of upgrading 'em to Viper Standard might come up to the price tag of a (used Block 52) with far less hours.


Maarkhoor said:


> They already build them....if few hours used we must not care....


Define: Few Hours

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## GriffinsRule

Maarkhoor said:


> They already build them....if few hours used we must not care....



They have not built any for Pakistan so you are incorrect there. Any new orders will take a while to fulfill, even it submitted



mingle said:


> Blk 70 is a great plane with price of 28 typhoons we can have Atleast 50 F16s. It's totally different plane except shape and outer side.



I am not sure that is entirely accurate, at least on the flyaway costs. New F-16Vs are going to be pretty expensive ... the only upside is being able to use FMS (cutting out any middlemen) and using CSF money for them, vs Typhoon will have a some pockets lined and money will be from the treasury/forex (not buying into this Saudi money, esp now that their production just took a sizable hit) 

Typhoon can btw use all weapons we have integrated on the F-16s but there will be other ancillary costs for setting up support infrastructure around new engines, airframes, radars etc. Some of that will even hold true for the new F-16s.

I think the chances of us getting Block 70s is only once we have an AESA radar in service in JF-17, but not before.

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## Tom_Cruise

GriffinsRule said:


> They have not built any for Pakistan so you are incorrect there. Any new orders will take a while to fulfill, even it submitted



Indeed. And any weapons sales above $14m needs to go through Congress.


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## raja786

After watching trump's speech today I think we ain't getting f-sola.

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## FuturePAF

raja786 said:


> After watching trump's speech today I think we ain't getting f-sola.



Give him time to forget and be reminded that he can claim to sign a deal. If there's money to be made and jobs to be maintained for US companies and US workers, especially going into an election year, his cognitive dissonance will kick in.

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## Ultima Thule

raja786 said:


> After watching trump's speech today I think we ain't getting f-sola.


If we will get Those F-16 its plus for us not confirmed any thing @raja786

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## mingle

raja786 said:


> After watching trump's speech today I think we ain't getting f-sola.


Welcome back will get those birds real business will be done behind the door plus india is not buying any big ticket items from US.

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## GriffinsRule

Dont read anything into the Trump speech besides the fact that he wants Indian voters to switch from Dems to Reps for the next election (unlikely). Its just campaigning and nothing else.

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## danger007

GriffinsRule said:


> Dont read anything into the Trump speech besides the fact that he wants Indian voters to switch from Dems to Reps for the next election (unlikely). Its just campaigning and nothing else.




yeah could be same with pakistan as well...

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> Dont read anything into the Trump speech besides the fact that he wants Indian voters to switch from Dems to Reps for the next election (unlikely). Its just campaigning and nothing else.


Not gonna happen ppl here won't switch vote like that. It's a futile attempt by trump I don't know who gave him this idea???



danger007 said:


> yeah could be same with pakistan as well...


True can say same thing to IK as well ask ppl to vote me.


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## SQ8

mingle said:


> Not gonna happen ppl here won't switch vote like that. It's a futile attempt by trump I don't know who gave him this idea???
> 
> 
> True can say same thing to IK as well ask ppl to vote me.


Most Indian Hindus are near the point where they will claim Modi as Bhagwan if given the nudge. 

They will switch votes and vote for Trump, but the number of registered Indian voters is what matters too.

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## mingle

Oscar said:


> Most Indian Hindus are near the point where they will claim Modi as Bhagwan if given the nudge.
> 
> They will switch votes and vote for Trump, but the number of registered Indian voters is what matters too.


Never I don't think so politics in US and Canada is very different mostly Indians are Democrat supporters or can say immigrants mostly go with Dems not Republicans. Plus each voter is independent vote according to local needs not back home politics


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## SQ8

mingle said:


> Never I don't think so politics in US and Canada is very different mostly Indians are Democrat supporters or can say immigrants mostly gi with Dems not Republicans. Plus each voter is independent vote according to local needs not back home politics


Modi is an unusual phenomenon which has clouded most Indian brains. These people cant think for themselves and will follow the mob. 

There are always exceptions but the general voting population will consider Trump. They may still vote democrat for congress.


----------



## Basel

Maarkhoor said:


> Double engine double expense, PAF is more interested in F-16 reasons are obvious further EFT's are not as good as F-16 since we know much more about F-16 and their maintenance...if we induct another platform we need many years and more expense to induct new platform....
> 
> Block 70 already and overkill over Indians....
> 
> What American thinks if they gave us more F-16 we will F@ck India which will lead to nuclear war.
> 
> @James David @Khafee



If opportunity is available then PAF will go for EFTs (latest version) as they want it, they will come with added benefit for JFT.



ziaulislam said:


> f16s will still be better cost wise but depends whther we get aim120d,aim9x with b70



All is not about cost, sometimes one have bear cost to get near parity capacity with enemy. EFT is Meteor capable which is a big capacity.



mingle said:


> Blk 70 is a great plane with price of 28 typhoons we can have Atleast 50 F16s. It's totally different plane except shape and outer side.



Its more sanctionable then EFTs can come with tech for JFT which earlier can not provide.

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## Aamir Hussain

Any news on Block 70??


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## Yaseen1

they way u.s is cooperating with india there is high risk that they will train india to disable f16 and make it useless by using electronic or cyber attack or jamming it effectively and will also give them information about weaknesses of this jet so it is better we not get more f16s

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## NA71

Aamir Hussain said:


> Any news on Block 70??



Trump said last night*" We, (Indian & USA) will together protect our borders from Radical Islamic Terrorism....and standing ovation from Indian PM and his team"...*

doesn't enough hint of future events????? Still waiting for F16????

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## Haris Ali2140

NA71 said:


> Trump said last night*" We, (Indian & USA) will together protect our borders from Radical Islamic Terrorism....and standing ovation from Indian PM and his team"...*
> 
> doesn't enough hint of future events????? Still waiting for F16????


Two weeks ago these radicals were invited to Camp David.So wait before drawing any conclusions.Trump needs votes.

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## Yaseen1

I think if india not buys russian equipment due to closeness with u.s and end s400 deal we have chance to get russian jets otherwise we should negotiate with china to produce chinese flankers in Pakistan


NA71 said:


> Trump said last night*" We, (Indian & USA) will together protect our borders from Radical Islamic Terrorism....and standing ovation from Indian PM and his team"...*
> 
> doesn't enough hint of future events????? Still waiting for F16????

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## Salza

NA71 said:


> Trump said last night*" We, (Indian & USA) will together protect our borders from Radical Islamic Terrorism....and standing ovation from Indian PM and his team"...*
> 
> doesn't enough hint of future events????? Still waiting for F16????




Never mind of Trump's words. I can bet, he will sale F35s to Pakistan today, if we fill his pockets with billions.

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## NA71

True


Haris Ali2140 said:


> Two weeks ago these radicals were invited to Camp David.So wait before drawing any conclusions.Trump needs votes.




True ...but it was two week ago....the above statement is just 24 hours ago.... Trump means destabilization in the whole region ....one side "India-Pakistan-Iran-Saudia-UAE-Jordan" and the other "China-Taiwan".

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## Yaseen1

I not think u.s will ever sell f35 to any Muslim country even they give billions to them ,clear example is turkey and gcc arab world 


Salza said:


> Never mind of Trump's words. I can bet, he will sale F35s to Pakistan today, if we fill his pockets with billions.

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## Trailer23

Yaseen1 said:


> I not think u.s will ever sell f35 to any Muslim country even they give billions to them ,clear example is turkey and gcc arab world


Please, I can think of 02 Countries - that if they want - they get. You can look up which 02 Nations are the US's biggest customers for Military in the past 5 Years.

Finally, yeah Trumps remarks were disturbing to say the least, but he also sat next to IK a couple of months back & said he wanted to invest, and trade with Pakistan & that Pakistan was a great Country and the people were great (too).

Look, its quite simple. Since the Afghan Peace Process has...shall we say stalled, Trump needs a Plan 'B' to get votes. He also needs help campaign his next Election. India has deep pockets. We don't.

Look, (if) F-16's don't come, i'm pretty certain our leadership IK/PAF have got their own Plan B/C

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## Yaseen1

I think the probability that Pakistan develops its own 5gen jet is more than the chance we get f35 and nations like china,russia and nkorea are surviving much better without u.s defense equipment so it is good if we move to self reliance instead of begging u.s for F16s,u.s policies are more than elections and are controlled by zionists lobby whose control remains on u.s policy making no matter who becomes their president,trump is only their puppet and I am sure india has used israel for convincing trump to join their gathering in u.s


Trailer23 said:


> Please, I can think of 02 Countries - that if they want - they get. You can look up which 02 Nations are the US's biggest customers for Military in the past 5 Years.
> 
> Finally, yeah Trumps remarks were disturbing to say the least, but he also sat next to IK a couple of months back & said he wanted to invest, and trade with Pakistan & that Pakistan was a great Country and the people were great (too).
> 
> Look, its quite simple. Since the Afghan Peace Process has...shall we say stalled, Trump needs a Plan 'B' to get votes. He also needs help campaign his next Election. India has deep pockets. We don't.
> 
> Look, (if) F-16's don't come, i'm pretty certain our leadership IK/PAF have got their own Plan B/C

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## Trailer23

Yaseen1 said:


> it is good if we move to self reliance instead of begging u.s for F16s


So far nothing official has mentioned about our desire for F-16's - so that nutritive outta be put to rest.


Yaseen1 said:


> I am sure india has used israel for convincing trump to join their gathering in u.s


It doesn't matter whom India has used for their lobbying. The US needs Pakistan...and it may have something to do with Afghanistan, Iran or ... just be asked to back off by a common ally.

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## Signalian

Yaseen1 said:


> I think the probability that Pakistan develops its own 5gen jet is more than the chance we get f35


J-31, not F-35.
Azm has bright chances to be based on J-31

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## mingle

NA71 said:


> Trump said last night*" We, (Indian & USA) will together protect our borders from Radical Islamic Terrorism....and standing ovation from Indian PM and his team"...*
> 
> doesn't enough hint of future events????? Still waiting for F16????


Trump didn't name Pak nor accused Pak for anything why U feeling guilty?? Indians were expecting Pak name. This Generic term radical islam fitts on every faction like Daesh, ETM sit tight

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## Yaseen1

i think afganistan is no direct threat to u.s,their major threat is china and to contain china they need india,that is why they are staying in afghanisan on indian request and ended talks with taliban,u.s not need us more than india that is why they are more inclined towards india


Trailer23 said:


> So far nothing official has mentioned about our desire for F-16's - so that nutritive outta be put to rest.
> 
> It doesn't matter whom India has used for their lobbying. The US needs Pakistan...and it may have something to do with Afghanistan, Iran or ... just be asked to back off by a common ally.

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## NA71

mingle said:


> Trump didn't name Pak nor accused Pak for anything why U feeling guilty?? Indians were expecting Pak name. This Generic term radical islam fitts on every faction like Daesh, ETM sit tight




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176000121202458625


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## MIRauf

I hope these guys used deodorant, else that stadium is gona reek for weeks.
Oh well, on other hands will teach the stadium owners to rent it out to them again.


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## ziaulislam

NA71 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176000121202458625


Modi is going to stay for next 10 years or so
So expect war in next election year 2023

Its all about preparatory work for war..the reason why sudden eagerness on weapons sytem

Their goal will be a quick short decisive air dominance obtained by IAF over PAF

A second option is naval blockade but for that the prerequisite is quick air dominance othweise any such attempt will lead to sinking of IN ships 

So all hands on deck for IAF
The recent comitment for another 36 rafales speeding up of mirages upgrade along with finalizing the LCA suit

It will be fool to under estimate this willingness 

What happened in feb was a simple miscalculation by IAF wont happen again

After modi winning it should have been placed alarm bells and military should seriously look at beefing airdefense and airforce

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## S.Y.A

After this news:
India to order 36 more Rafales.
It is high time that the PAF wakes up and do something. 72 rafales and 272 MKIs are no joke.
We needed SAMs, latest EW capability and new jet fighters yesterday. F7s and mirages arent going to do anything for us when faced with rafales, mki, mirage 2000s and mig-29s.
For all of those things we only have 70+ F-16s and ~100 jf-17s. that is not even the bare minimum. This is literally saying "aa baill mujhay maar!"

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## NA71

S.Y.A said:


> After this news:
> India to order 36 more Rafales.
> It is high time that the PAF wakes up and do something. 72 rafales and 272 MKIs are no joke.
> We needed SAMs, latest EW capability and new jet fighters yesterday. F7s and mirages arent going to do anything for us when faced with rafales, mki, mirage 2000s and mig-29s.
> For all of those things we only 70+ F-16s and ~100 jf-17s. that is not even the bare minimum. This is literally saying "aa baill mujhay maar!"



We seem to be sticking with hopes of F-16s ....we rejected many many platforms in evaluation stages just because we are heavily obsessed with F-16s.... Haven't we wasted so many yrs in this pursuit ?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think we should continue to focus on our JF17 platform

The threat is maximum , in Kashmir , as any destablity in Iran will cause a humanitarian crisis in Western Provinces , i.e Baluchistan

Indian forces are waiting for making a move as soon as our attention is diverted

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## Haris Ali2140

NA71 said:


> We seem to be sticking with hopes of F-16s ....we rejected many many platforms in evaluation stages just because we are heavily obsessed with F-16s.... Haven't we wasted so many yrs in this pursuit ?


Buying a new platform will cause a lot of money than buying F-16s and for a cash strapped air force this means a lot.

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## mingle

NA71 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176000121202458625


Never believe Farhan virk, Zaid Hamid type ppl they run on agendas

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## NA71

mingle said:


> Never believe Farhan virk, Zaid Hamid type ppl they run on agendas


watch ANI embedded clip.....leave farhan.



Haris Ali2140 said:


> Buying a new platform will cause a lot of money than buying F-16s and for a cash strapped air force this means a lot.



Sir aap sahi farma rahey hein .....we had money for Jets procurement back in 2000 to 2005....but we couldn't decide....@mastankhan has already pointed out several times.


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## Ibn Batouta

In my opinion PAF have to buy some second hand F-16 to USA or other Air Force, and upgrade them to the V Block 70 standard. 
Just like RMAF with 23 Block 52 upgrade to Block 70 V


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## Haris Ali2140

NA71 said:


> watch ANI embedded clip.....leave farhan.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir aap sahi farma rahey hein .....we had money for Jets procurement back in 2000 to 2005....but we couldn't decide....@mastankhan has already pointed out several times.


I think it was a good decision because the only option was French mirage 2000,but we went with JF-17 electronics from french which was also a good deal.But the French dumped us. Don't forget that.Went for Gripen, also denied.

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## SABRE

ziaulislam said:


> Modi is going to stay for next 10 years or so
> So expect war in next election year 2023



Good luck to the Indian economy if he stays for the next 10 years. The only winners are Ambanis.



> Its all about preparatory work for war..the reason why sudden eagerness on weapons sytem



It is quite possible that there would be war. Modis arming patterns and political behaviour is similar to the WWI and WWII belligerents.



> Their goal will be a quick short decisive air dominance obtained by IAF over PAF



That would immediately cross our nuclear threshold. If one, two, or all three armed services cease to exist or are put in a position where they are no longer able to function effectively we would most definitely go '*ballistic*.'



> A second option is naval blockade but for that the prerequisite is quick air dominance othweise any such attempt will lead to sinking of IN ships



This is something we should have been looking into in the past two or three decades. The amount of attention paid to the PN is ludicrous. PN's bravery during the 1965 war was only second to that of PAF. But instead of commending it the service was thrown under the bus immediately after the war. Now we are looking at a service that can be immediately overwhelmed by IN with its current fleet levels. It's for the first time that PN is getting first-hand surface ships instead of obsolete second-hand British or American ships. But we still have a long way to go. We can have PLAAN establish itself in the Arabian Sea to prevent any sort of a blockade. But that reminds me of Task Force 74 of the US Navy's 7th fleet. Nothing came of it. Our best bet thus is classical maneuvering in a manner that such blockade would lead to the closure of Strait of Hormuz, thereby cutting off India's own trade and oil supply from the Middle East and also invite immediate international intervention.

In the case of naval force depletion ... well ... we go '*ballistic*.'



> So all hands on deck for IAF
> The recent comitment for another 36 rafales speeding up of mirages upgrade along with finalizing the LCA suit



I am looking at the next 10 to 15 years at least for maturing of this. Rafales would a major threat (perceived) in the mid to long run and we shouldn't be taking them lightly. LCA, however, is neither here nor there unless we see something definite. IAF doesn't seem too keen on the machine. Most of the weapons have not yet been integrated on to the current versions of the aircraft, the price difference between MK1 and MK1A has increased exponentially. Going by this MK2 would be even more expensive yet relatively underpowered compared to IAF's future second-tier aircraft like Mirage-2000 and MiG-29.



> It will be fool to under estimate this willingness
> 
> What happened in feb was a simple miscalculation by IAF wont happen again
> 
> After modi winning it should have been placed alarm bells and military should seriously look at beefing airdefense and airforce



Alarm bells, drums, shooting, and shouting, etc ... all might have gone off. But we have to look into our pockets. But, indeed, if there is one sector that we need to look into on an emergency basis its the air-defense, both in terms of capability/technology and doctrine/usage.


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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> Modi is going to stay for next 10 years or so
> So expect war in next election year 2023
> 
> Its all about preparatory work for war..the reason why sudden eagerness on weapons sytem
> 
> Their goal will be a quick short decisive air dominance obtained by IAF over PAF
> 
> A second option is naval blockade but for that the prerequisite is quick air dominance othweise any such attempt will lead to sinking of IN ships
> 
> So all hands on deck for IAF
> The recent comitment for another 36 rafales speeding up of mirages upgrade along with finalizing the LCA suit
> 
> It will be fool to under estimate this willingness
> 
> What happened in feb was a simple miscalculation by IAF wont happen again
> 
> After modi winning it should have been placed alarm bells and military should seriously look at beefing airdefense and airforce



After getting beaten up by Pakistan in 1965 India came well prepared in 1971 after just six years, so now we should also prepare ourselves for internal and external threat.

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## S.Y.A

SABRE said:


> This is something we should have been looking into in the past two or three decades. The amount of attention paid to the PN is ludicrous. PN's bravery during the 1965 war was only second to that of PAF. But instead of commending it the service was thrown under the bus immediately after the war. Now we are looking at a service that can be immediately overwhelmed by IN with its current fleet levels. It's for the first time that PN is getting first-hand surface ships instead of obsolete second-hand British or American ships. But we still have a long way to go. We can have PLAAN establish itself in the Arabian Sea to prevent any sort of a blockade. But that reminds me of Task Force 74 of the US Navy's 7th fleet. Nothing came of it. Our best bet thus is classical maneuvering in a manner that such blockade would lead to the closure of Strait of Hormuz, thereby cutting off India's own trade and oil supply from the Middle East and also invite immediate international intervention.


Indeed, Ayub Khan the Great used to say that the time of navies and ships is gone, and used to call warships "pregnant ducks". all modernization plans were either scrapped or not put into action. we had to pay a very heavy price for that neglect in 71.

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## SABRE

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Went for Gripen, also denied.



Gripen would have been like buying F-16. You would be subject to American approval as it was - and still is - using American avionics, weapon systems, and the Volvo engine derived from GE F404. Today Gripen is integrated with European weapon systems and its avionics can perhaps be substituted with European ones as well, but the engine would remain a bit iffy. The Americans would always counter such deals with their F-16s. In the end, we would be left with watching 'paint dry' on the wall.


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## Riz

If u ask me F-16 will still remains backbone of PAF in next decade and JF-17 will be like our F-7...

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## Basel

SABRE said:


> Gripen would have been like buying F-16. You would be subject to American approval as it was - and still is - using American avionics, weapon systems, and the Volvo engine derived from GE F404. Today Gripen is integrated with European weapon systems and its avionics can perhaps be substituted with European ones as well, but the engine would remain a bit iffy. The Americans would always counter such deals with their F-16s. In the end, we would be left with watching 'paint dry' on the wall.



Gripen can be customized as per customer needs and European engines are available if customer wants.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Yaseen1 said:


> i think afganistan is no direct threat to u.s,their major threat is china and to contain china they need india,that is why they are staying in afghanisan on indian request and ended talks with taliban,u.s not need us more than india that is why they are more inclined towards india


Containing China via India has already shown the failure (Kung-fu kick, 02-27 etc.)!!! It has to be a direct involvement of the USA with her own assets in far away lands...

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## Fawad alam

Why this topic is still open? I feel very pity for those who still believes that US will give us Block-70.


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## Haris Ali2140

Basel said:


> After getting beaten up by Pakistan in 1965 India came well prepared in 1971 after just six years, so now we should also prepare ourselves for internal and external threat.


71 was a special situation.It was a civil war a they took benefit of it.An all out war is different.

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## NA71

now again a sharp twist....Trump just concluded meeting with IK and said lots of discussion with Pakistan is under going ....Pakistan is not center of terrorism infact they have sacrificed a lot in fighting terrorism.....Iran is actually terrorism center....and praises for IK ...great athlete waghera waghera.....

"Lots of discussions "

Trump is playing on both sides of the wicket....

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## Haris Ali2140

NA71 said:


> now again a sharp twist....Trump just concluded meeting with IK and said lots of discussion with Pakistan is under going ....Pakistan is not center of terrorism infact they have sacrificed a lot in fighting terrorism.....Iran is actually terrorism center....and praises for IK ...great athlete waghera waghera.....
> 
> "Lots of discussions "


The problem is we seriously f****d on our image front in the recent ten years including military. We had so many points to counter the allegations regarding terrorism but we didn't used them.

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## NA71

Haris Ali2140 said:


> The problem is we seriously f****d on our image front in the recent ten years including military. We had so many points to counter the allegations regarding terrorism but we didn't used them.



the biggest was of course OBL discovery....


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## Haris Ali2140

NA71 said:


> the biggest was of course OBL discovery....


Obama specifically said that Pakistan helped US but we let that go to waste.


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## mingle

NA71 said:


> now again a sharp twist....Trump just concluded meeting with IK and said lots of discussion with Pakistan is under going ....Pakistan is not center of terrorism infact they have sacrificed a lot in fighting terrorism.....Iran is actually terrorism center....and praises for IK ...great athlete waghera waghera.....
> 
> "Lots of discussions "
> 
> Trump is playing on both sides of the wicket....


Like Diesal playing both sides of the wicket he will sell everything to Pak trust me

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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> After getting beaten up by Pakistan in 1965 India came well prepared in 1971 after just six years, so now we should also prepare ourselves for internal and external threat.


My guess is they will get their airdefense, new awecs, and 120 + rafales(72)and mirages(50) line up by 2023 and will go for limited but decisive airbattle this time.
Goal will be to punish PAF so much in one go (with acceptable indian loses)that PAF doesnt respond

I think navy will also green light 54 rafales off the shelf

LCA suit is pretty impressive as well.

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## loanranger

ziaulislam said:


> My guess is they will get their airdefense, new awecs, and 120 + rafales(72)and mirages(50) line up by 2023 and will go for limited but decisive airbattle this time.
> Goal will be to punish PAF so much in one go (with acceptable indian loses)that PAF doesnt respond
> 
> I think navy will also green light 54 rafales off the shelf
> 
> LCA suit is pretty impressive as well.


That scenario doesn't look too good for PAF


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## Haris Ali2140

ziaulislam said:


> My guess is they will get their airdefense, new awecs, and 120 + rafales(72)and mirages(50) line up by 2023 and will go for limited but decisive airbattle this time.
> Goal will be to punish PAF so much in one go (with acceptable indian loses)that PAF doesnt respond
> 
> I think navy will also green light 54 rafales off the shelf
> 
> LCA suit is pretty impressive as well.


By that time we will also have B3 and other goodies.

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> My guess is they will get their airdefense, new awecs, and 120 + rafales(72)and mirages(50) line up by 2023 and will go for limited but decisive airbattle this time.
> Goal will be to punish PAF so much in one go (with acceptable indian loses)that PAF doesnt respond
> 
> I think navy will also green light 54 rafales off the shelf
> 
> LCA suit is pretty impressive as well.



They can do that earlier too, if USA and their allies support India in war, Pakistan have to look available aircraft options, if KSA is willing to finance fighter jet deal then Pakistan should go for 48 EFTs with JFT Block-4 avionics+engine package from EFT, that is best solution till 5th gen arrive, if that is not possible then highly customized J-10P at least around 60 should be inducted those are last option to have if nothing good is available from west.

Also 2023 is not suitable for Naval ops for IN as PN will be at its best with all purchased assets will be with them including 12 AIP Chinese + 3 upgraded A-90Bs.

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## MIRauf

lol, 120 Rafale for IAF and 50+ for IN ?, do you know what the full cost would be ? and all that on top of upgrades of M2k and Su-30s, man you are so doom and gloom, might as well raise the white flag and call it a day.

It took IAF 10+ years to go for 36 Rafale, imagine how long it would take IN for 54. They will drag their feet like ever, Modi jee or no Modi Jee.

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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> They can do that earlier too, if USA and their allies support India in war, Pakistan have to look available aircraft options, if KSA is willing to finance fighter jet deal then Pakistan should go for 48 EFTs with JFT Block-4 avionics+engine package from EFT, that is best solution till 5th gen arrive, if that is not possible then highly customized J-10P at least around 60 should be inducted those are last option to have if nothing good is available from west.
> 
> Also 2023 is not suitable for Naval ops for IN as PN will be at its best with all purchased assets will be with them including 12 AIP Chinese + 3 upgraded A-90Bs.


I doubt a naval op..seems like a decsive strong short air operation/bombing

As modi said this was a "testube"

They know now that a nuclear response or even a full scale response wont happen

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## Quwa

ziaulislam said:


> My guess is they will get their airdefense, new awecs, and 120 + rafales(72)and mirages(50) line up by 2023 and will go for limited but decisive airbattle this time.
> Goal will be to punish PAF so much in one go (with acceptable indian loses)that PAF doesnt respond
> 
> I think navy will also green light 54 rafales off the shelf
> 
> LCA suit is pretty impressive as well.


IMO 72 Rafales in 3-4 years is really tight, it'd be their 2030 vision. For 2023, they'll load the NW of India with the Rafale, M2K, MiG-29 and Tejas while loading the MKIs back further for offensive long-range ops. The Rafale and medium/light jets will focus on handling the PAF response. In the short run, the PAF should evolve its approach by finding longer ranged SOWs, like the 300 km Raptor III and SOM ALCM, and attack from further behind the LoC.

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## ziaulislam

MIRauf said:


> lol, 120 Rafale for IAF and 50+ for IN ?, do you know what the full cost would be ? and all that on top of upgrades of M2k and Su-30s, man you are so doom and gloom, might as well raise the white flag and call it a day.


Yes it will 6 billion for additional 36 for airforce and 8 billion for navy
14 billion is peanuts for a comitted govt..india GDP is 11 times more than us
Its like a billion dollars for us

Rafale will take precedence over all other procurements

Mirage 3b$;is already paid

I wont be surprise if french gives a credit line to them



Quwa said:


> IMO 72 Rafales in 3-4 years is really tight, it'd be their 2030 vision. For 2023, they'll load the NW of India with the Rafale, M2K, MiG-29 and Tejas while loading the MKIs back further for offensive long-range ops. The Rafale and medium/light jets will focus on handling the PAF response. In the short run, the PAF should evolve its approach by finding longer ranged SOWs, like the 300 km Raptor III and SOM ALCM, and attack from further behind the LoC.


Tight but doable if they order next January off the shelf as the news are coming in.

Because if u look at its like getting 36 jets ..previous 36 were ordered years ago..and its follow on order..if we think 1 sq a year than 2024 is possible
2025 end definitively

I think the rafales will lead the strike role as low observable jet with rest of fighters & s400 waiting for pakistani response

Its time PAF ISI and military command sit together to see what they can do ..will it be procurement of more long range SOWs and airdefense or new fighter

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## Trailer23

MIRauf said:


> Modi jee or no Modi Jee.


In 10 Years...No Modi jee for sure.

Since he's on his final frontier, I doubt he'll be around - literally.

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> I doubt a naval op..seems like a decsive strong short air operation/bombing
> 
> As modi said this was a "testube"
> 
> They know now that a nuclear response or even a full scale response wont happen



One thing you are forgetting is that PN will be able to hit targets which were not in our reach due to SLCMs and that can rain havoc if military targets in economic hubs are hit.

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## loanranger

With PM IK in US talking with trump we should Push for F16 deal. Dangle the Afghan and Iran carrot at the same time. Trump seemed to be in a really good mood wrt Pakistan. Not that it matters in doing a deal but tells you the general mood.

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## mingle

loanranger said:


> With PM IK in US talking with trump we should Push for F16 deal. Dangle the Afghan and Iran carrot at the same time. Trump seemed to be in a really good mood wrt Pakistan. Not that it matters in doing a deal but tells you the general mood.


Let's wait and see

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## ziaulislam

Haris Ali2140 said:


> By that time we will also have B3 and other goodies.


Just 50 block 3
This against 120(50mirages+72 rafales) equipped with long range BVRs and excellent EW suit will be a big headache..the advantage if aim120 will errode

I am conifedent the french will be able to deliver 36 more rafales by 2024-25 if they sign next yr



mingle said:


> Let's wait and see


Its absolutely essential to push hard the same way mushi did..he inisted upon it and was able to move all the defense deals through despite being initially refused
PAF should try to get waiver for used equipment

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Just 50 block 3
> This against 120(50mirages+72 rafales) equipped with long range BVRs and excellent EW suit will be a big headache..the advantage if aim120 will errode
> 
> I am conifedent the french will be able to deliver 36 more rafales by 2024-25 if they sign next yr
> 
> 
> Its absolutely essential to push hard the same way mushi did..he inisted upin it and was able to move all the defense deals through despite being initially refused


 I agree even if there is shot go off the shelf purchase

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## Aamir Hussain

NA71 said:


> Trump said last night*" We, (Indian & USA) will together protect our borders from Radical Islamic Terrorism....and standing ovation from Indian PM and his team"...*
> 
> doesn't enough hint of future events????? Still waiting for F16????


I one of the very few on this thread who said it is not going to happen! I was just checking from those who were all gung ho on the “Impending” sale of block 70’s!

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## ACE OF THE AIR

ziaulislam said:


> My guess is they will get their airdefense, new awecs, and 120 + rafales(72)and mirages(50) line up by 2023 and will go for limited but decisive airbattle this time.
> Goal will be to punish PAF so much in one go (with acceptable indian loses)that PAF doesnt respond
> 
> I think navy will also green light 54 rafales off the shelf
> 
> LCA suit is pretty impressive as well.


It does not seem correct that IAF would be going for 72 Rafales only. The reason is 10 years back when MMRCA was initially revealed the numbers where of 126 aircraft were for the Air Force alone. This was keeping in mind that Tejas would be replacing most of the Mig's. Today the situation is very different as Tejas is not up to the standard hence Rafales would be replacing not just the mig-21's but also other increase the numbers of squadrons to 22. 

It seems after SU30MKI being short down there could be a new requirement which would make simultaneous inductions through local manufacturing as was as of the shelf aircraft. 



Basel said:


> They can do that earlier too, if USA and their allies support India in war, Pakistan have to look available aircraft options, if KSA is willing to finance fighter jet deal then Pakistan should go for 48 EFTs with JFT Block-4 avionics+engine package from EFT, that is best solution till 5th gen arrive, if that is not possible then highly customized J-10P at least around 60 should be inducted those are last option to have if nothing good is available from west.
> 
> Also 2023 is not suitable for Naval ops for IN as PN will be at its best with all purchased assets will be with them including 12 AIP Chinese + 3 upgraded A-90Bs.


The issue is PAF is time constrained hence the options are limited. If PAF goes for the EFT then they would require almost everything that they can get hold of with orders for the newer tranches as well off the shelf or produced in Turkey. 

Though there is an other option but this is not 100% sanction proof.
PAF can purchase F-16 block 52/ V on priority basis with Saudi assistance and through their own funds procure olders blocks and stores. 

Though if PAF wants to get something that can give them greater edge over the rafales and SU30's then F-35 of the Turkish Air Force can be procured. However Saudia and Turkey might not deal directly.


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## Foxtrot Delta

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> It does not seem correct that IAF would be going for 72 Rafales only. The reason is 10 years back when MMRCA was initially revealed the numbers where of 126 aircraft were for the Air Force alone. This was keeping in mind that Tejas would be replacing most of the Mig's. Today the situation is very different as Tejas is not up to the standard hence Rafales would be replacing not just the mig-21's but also other increase the numbers of squadrons to 22.
> 
> It seems after SU30MKI being short down there could be a new requirement which would make simultaneous inductions through local manufacturing as was as of the shelf aircraft.
> 
> 
> The issue is PAF is time constrained hence the options are limited. If PAF goes for the EFT then they would require almost everything that they can get hold of with orders for the newer tranches as well off the shelf or produced in Turkey.
> 
> Though there is an other option but this is not 100% sanction proof.
> PAF can purchase F-16 block 52/ V on priority basis with Saudi assistance and through their own funds procure olders blocks and stores.
> 
> Though if PAF wants to get something that can give them greater edge over the rafales and SU30's then F-35 of the Turkish Air Force can be procured. However Saudia and Turkey might not deal directly.


Even turkey is not getting f-35.


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## Rocky rock

I think we must close this "Thread" now. Which has no credibility.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Even turkey is not getting f-35.


With Trump in power anything is possible. He wants two things only. Money and jobs for american people.
Turkey is not getting F-35 because they would have been the sole maintenance facility for Europe hence US firms were against this. Italy and Turkey both have rights to produce F-35's hence those aircraft manufactured there were going to Europe hence another job cut. 
British RAF were delivered US made F-35 where as Italy delivered Belgium F-35. Italy was given 
*Heavy Air Frame Maintenance, Repair, Overhaul and Upgrade for the European Region in 2018.*


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## dBSPL

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Even turkey is not getting f-35.


According to the current situation, Turkey's responsibilities about JSF program (as a supplier ) will continue until 2020 first quarter.

Regarding the Turkey's return to the program, the sale of Patriot systems, discount offer in aluminum and steel customs duties has been forwarded to the Turkish side.

What is expected in return has not yet been announced. This issue will become clear in the coming days.

If otherwise, The content of the JSF agreement is blocking the path of the international arbitration court. But the all partners(not customers) will need to be sign joint written declaration for this. Turkey's compensation right about financial resources and the labor involved in the project , must be solve in agreement with other countries . If Turkey exit from program, the other eight partner countries will have to pay compensation to Turkey , because of Israel's regional ambitions and security paranoias.

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## araz

S.Y.A said:


> After this news:
> India to order 36 more Rafales.
> It is high time that the PAF wakes up and do something. 72 rafales and 272 MKIs are no joke.
> We needed SAMs, latest EW capability and new jet fighters yesterday. F7s and mirages arent going to do anything for us when faced with rafales, mki, mirage 2000s and mig-29s.
> For all of those things we only 70+ F-16s and ~100 jf-17s. that is not even the bare minimum. This is literally saying "aa baill mujhay maar!"


Bhai.
Thora sabr say kaam lo. Money for Pakistan is a major burden. However we do not sit idle while they are inducting Rafales and what nots. Pakistan will induct Block 3s that is another 50 planes with AESA. There maybe an interim fighter but cost of integration is something which is difficult for us to manage. Remember you will never win in the numbers game with India. Being a larger country with more resources they can always outbuy you. So you can at best hope to maintain deterrence at a level where war becomes too expensive for anyone to consider.
A

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## S.Y.A

araz said:


> Pakistan will induct Block 3s that is another 50 planes with AESA.


Not another, the only 50 planes with AESA, that too with a much shorter range than the indian radars. and only 50.


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## PakShaheen79

72 Rafale are going to take long long time. Even procurement of 36 will take long as you see. Starting from Oct 2019, I think it will continue to 2022-23 if not late. Our real worries is lack of long range heavy strike platforms and we will be relying on more expansive ballistic missile options which can be very problematic due to their dual nature and enemy can consider it nuclear attack. PAF has max time till 2023. Before next election in India. Congress eliminated East Pakistan now RSS gang has to score even bigger. We have listened to Modi in US with Trump. Time for PAF to put production of Thunders in next gear and make a decision on J-10C / EF-2000 / Mig-35 as soon as possible. But if something happens this year or next ... we have already got with what we will be compelled to fight a ruthless high intensity war.


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## Haris Ali2140

ziaulislam said:


> Just 50 block 3
> This against 120(50mirages+72 rafales) equipped with long range BVRs and excellent EW suit will be a big headache..the advantage if aim120 will errode
> 
> I am conifedent the french will be able to deliver 36 more rafales by 2024-25 if they sign next yr



All the remaining JF17 B1&B2 will be upgraded to B3 if economy allows. They won't attack with 36 rafales because they have to also counter China.By 2025 we will have a strong navy too.

All the chinese,SA,Turkey,Brazilian,Swiss goodies will be available once we have money.


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## PakShaheen79

araz said:


> Bhai.
> Thora sabr say kaam lo. Money for Pakistan is a major burden. However we do not sit idle while they are inducting Rafales and what nots. Pakistan will induct Block 3s that is another 50 planes with AESA. There maybe an interim fighter but cost of integration is something which is difficult for us to manage. Remember you will never win in the numbers game with India. Being a larger country with more resources they can always outbuy you. So you can at best hope to maintain deterrence at a level where war becomes too expensive for anyone to consider.
> A



Yeah economy is real problem but at times like these ... some inspiration from our own ancient history (From the life of Prophet PBUH) and enemy like Isreal would really help. It is about political will the most. I place that even above economy. BB/Zardari duo wasted oppotunity to buy Mirage 2000 in 1990s when we had opportunity. Basic problem even then was political will. Pak got F-16s in 1980's just showing political will as we were offered F-20s initially. Thunder is prime example of political will. If will is there we can get and afford anything that is there in market to be purchased even new F-16s from USA.


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## Ultima Thule

Haris Ali2140 said:


> All the remaining JF17 B1&B2 will be upgraded to B3. They won't attack with 36 rafales because they have to also counter China.By 2025 we will have a strong navy too.


No Confirmation by PAF that JF-1 BI/B2 will be upgraded to B3 standard @Haris Ali2140


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## PakShaheen79

Haris Ali2140 said:


> All the remaining JF17 B1&B2 will be upgraded to B3 if economy allows. They won't attack with 36 rafales because they have to also counter China.By 2025 we will have a strong navy too.
> 
> All the chinese,SA,Turkey,Brazilian,Swiss goodies will be available once we have money.


That my friend is the precise reason why Indian strategists are thinking that they have an opportunity NOW to hit Pakistan before we get all those frigates and subs from China and more advanced plane.


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## Haris Ali2140

pakistanipower said:


> No Confirmation by PAF that JF-1 BI/B2 will be upgraded to B3 standard @Haris Ali2140


If they don't then it will be a mistake because they will be sitting ducks.With a small amount of money you can have a AESA,PL-15,EW equipped Small fighter which will take on Su-30 because it will be able detect them early.


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## Trango Towers

PakShaheen79 said:


> That my friend is the precise reason why Indian strategists are thinking that they have an opportunity NOW to hit Pakistan before we get all those frigates and subs from China and more advanced plane.


Their thinking is skewed.
Pak armed forces may have old refurbished equipment but unlike India we know how to use the equipment. Like the arabs indians have money and toys but they cant fight or use them. Army marched on its belly as napoleon said. Indian soldier beg for food on the net. Super power my foot


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## Ultima Thule

Haris Ali2140 said:


> If they don't then it will be a mistake because they will be sitting ducks.With a small amount of money you can have a AESA,PL-15,EW equipped Small fighter which will take on Su-30 because it will be able detect them early.


I think PAF want to induct B3 as early as Possible in numbers (50/100), Because of emerging threat of RAFALE after that PAF will be start upgrading B1/B2 to AESA and avionics upgrades but upgraded B1/B2 will stays behind B3 @Haris Ali2140


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## Haris Ali2140

PakShaheen79 said:


> That my friend is the precise reason why Indian strategists are thinking that they have an opportunity NOW to hit Pakistan before we get all those frigates and subs from China and more advanced plane.


India won't do anything because US needs them for China and if India attacks Pakistan,we may not survive but India won't be in any form to take on China for a very long time.
Courtesy of nukes.



pakistanipower said:


> I think PAF want to induct B3 as early as Possible in numbers (50/100), Because of emerging threat of RAFALE after that PAF will be start upgrading B1/B2 to AESA and avionics upgrades but upgraded B1/B2 will stays behind B3 @Haris Ali2140


The only thing restricting will be economy.


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## Trango Towers

Haris Ali2140 said:


> India won't do anything because US needs them for China and if India attacks Pakistan,we may not survive but India won't be in any form to take on China for a very long time.
> Courtesy of nukes.
> 
> 
> The only thing restricting will be economy.



It's a misconception that Pakistan wont survive...it will survive and thrive.
We had america threatening to invade. Why didnt they? They know this nation is full of psychos and they just need a goal. No better goal than freedom

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## Basel

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> It does not seem correct that IAF would be going for 72 Rafales only. The reason is 10 years back when MMRCA was initially revealed the numbers where of 126 aircraft were for the Air Force alone. This was keeping in mind that Tejas would be replacing most of the Mig's. Today the situation is very different as Tejas is not up to the standard hence Rafales would be replacing not just the mig-21's but also other increase the numbers of squadrons to 22.
> 
> It seems after SU30MKI being short down there could be a new requirement which would make simultaneous inductions through local manufacturing as was as of the shelf aircraft.
> 
> 
> The issue is PAF is time constrained hence the options are limited. If PAF goes for the EFT then they would require almost everything that they can get hold of with orders for the newer tranches as well off the shelf or produced in Turkey.
> 
> Though there is an other option but this is not 100% sanction proof.
> PAF can purchase F-16 block 52/ V on priority basis with Saudi assistance and through their own funds procure olders blocks and stores.
> 
> Though if PAF wants to get something that can give them greater edge over the rafales and SU30's then F-35 of the Turkish Air Force can be procured. However Saudia and Turkey might not deal directly.



US will not sell anything that gave edge to Pakistan over India even if we had money.

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## araz

PakShaheen79 said:


> Yeah economy is real problem but at times like these ... some inspiration from our own ancient history (From the life of Prophet PBUH) and enemy like Isreal would really help. It is about political will the most. I place that even above economy. BB/Zardari duo wasted oppotunity to buy Mirage 2000 in 1990s when we had opportunity. Basic problem even then was political will. Pak got F-16s in 1980's just showing political will as we were offered F-20s initially. Thunder is prime example of political will. If will is there we can get and afford anything that is there in market to be purchased even new F-16s from USA.


The situation financially between the 90s and 2020s is vastly different. We are on the verge of default having fought a hybrid war for the last 2 decades. The M2K deal was sheer greed rather than lack of will. The AF has pushed for inductions at the right time but been told repeatedly we have no money. No wonder we are having to use M3s and J7s which should have gone much earlier. However where we lost out we have constantly upgraded our platforms so it is a win of sorts. 
We quote our Hadi SAW without realizing the differences between HIM SAW and his sahaba RA and the corrupt self centred sycophants who are and have been at the helm of affairs for the last 7 decades. There is a sea of difference between personalities motivation personaldemeanour and emaan. Even if we had some peoplewith 10%of the emaan of the sahaba we wouldnot have been in the pile of doo doo that we are in. We instead rely on ridiculing others to make us look good.
A



pakistanipower said:


> No Confirmation by PAF that JF-1 BI/B2 will be upgraded to B3 standard @Haris Ali2140


I actually question the need of this expense in a net centric environment. It maybe possible for an AESA Bearing Thunder to actually drive the war in a theatre especially where we will be using the BVRs with the rest of the fighters keeping their Radars shut. JFT has a low RCS so that should work. However once we start manufacturing AESA Radars in numbers then we can revisit the issue.
A

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## Haris Ali2140

Trango Towers said:


> It's a misconception that Pakistan wont survive...it will survive and thrive.
> We had america threatening to invade. Why didnt they? They know this nation is full of psychos and they just need a goal. No better goal than freedom


Let's hope that Modi&Co. doesn't come out to be a real Hitler.



Basel said:


> US will not sell anything that gave edge to Pakistan over India even if we had money.


US won't neither France nor Europe.But the rest of the world will sell if we have money.


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## ziaulislam

Haris Ali2140 said:


> All the remaining JF17 B1&B2 will be upgraded to B3 if economy allows. They won't attack with 36 rafales because they have to also counter China.By 2025 we will have a strong navy too.
> 
> All the chinese,SA,Turkey,Brazilian,Swiss goodies will be available once we have money.


I hope we dont make the same tactical mistake of 1971 pinning hope n china..u have to fight your own wars

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## Haris Ali2140

ziaulislam said:


> I hope we dont make the same tactical mistake of 1971 pinning hope n china..u have to fight your own wars


US doesn't fight with Israel but they support them by providing top of the line weapon systems.


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## ziaulislam

Haris Ali2140 said:


> US doesn't fight with Israel but they support them by providing top of the line weapon systems.


And thats we are talking about
Keep in mind chinese support to pakistan is based upon strategic reasons not ideological (like US for israel)

Tomorrow these reasons can change

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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> I hope we dont make the same tactical mistake of 1971 pinning hope n china..u have to fight your own wars



Our focus should be to build Strategic Partnership with Russia, Turkey, Germany, Italy, Brazil, South Africa, Serbia, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Malaysia.


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## Trailer23

jupiter2007 said:


> Our focus should be to build Strategic Partnership with Russia, Turkey, Germany, Italy, Brazil, South Africa, Serbia, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Malaysia.


*sigh* you can scratch Russia & Iran off your list.

Turkey, KSA, Malaysia and possibly Italy (Leonardo) are doable.

The rest, well...who knows if they even give a sh!t.

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## jupiter2007

Trailer23 said:


> *sigh* you can scratch Russia & Iran off your list.
> 
> Turkey, KSA, Malaysia and possibly Italy (Leonardo) are doable.
> 
> The rest, well...who knows if they even give a sh!t.



It’s doable, both Russia and China are important.


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## Basel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Let's hope that Modi&Co. doesn't come out to be a real Hitler.
> 
> 
> US won't neither France nor Europe.But the rest of the world will sell if we have money.



That is why EFTs are best bet, if we have money or someone finance, because it will help built very advance JFT block-4.


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## Haris Ali2140

Trailer23 said:


> *sigh* you can scratch Russia & Iran off your list.
> 
> Turkey, KSA, Malaysia and possibly Italy (Leonardo) are doable.
> 
> The rest, well...who knows if they even give a sh!t.


Everyone will give a shit if we have money.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Basel said:


> US will not sell anything that gave edge to Pakistan over India even if we had money.


That is also a problem. F-15 are an option as they are old school can be transferred with upgrades. 

Think of it this way a child goes to a toy store and cries for the most expensive toy where as parents try to calm the child with a few low cost but larger quantity of toys.

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## Dubious

denel said:


> *Someone really has been drinking too much*; like this thread, *complete hogwash from day one *and mods need to shut it down completely. Focus on better things which are doable than to read tea leaves.


I am sorry are you attempting to insult mods or the forum? Coz we mods are aware and active...

So either you are insulting us that we are not aware/ or inactive and not doing our duty....Or you are just attacking another titled member for no reason? Take you pick! I suggest you be wise about it!

Titled members should never take such a cheap shot at another!

We mods have chosen to allow this thread to run (I thought it was obvious- with the thread being visited by many mods and even the admin himself! Let alone having the title changed and maintaining the thread). So, kindly keep your ill posts to yourself! It is neither allowed and especially not from a member with a title!

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## aliyusuf

All members have a right to express their opinion. This is after all a discussion forum. But personal attacks and imposing one's opinion on others is, in my humble opinion, conduct unbecoming of any member in general and especially the senior members. If someone doesn't like this thread then he or she should stop participating on it.

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> What does this have to do with this thread? Please take it to other parts in this forum that pleases your desires.
> 
> 
> Friend, i dont understand why you dont get the thread's topic and you planting this in the middle. Move it to some other thread.


They take whatever is on internet seriously forgetting ground realities.

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## denel

Dubious said:


> I am sorry are you attempting to insult mods or the forum? Coz we mods are aware and active...
> 
> So either you are insulting us that we are not aware/ or inactive and not doing our duty....Or you are just attacking another titled member for no reason? Take you pick! I suggest you be wise about it!
> 
> Titled members should never take such a cheap shot at another!
> 
> We mods have chosen to allow this thread to run (I thought it was obvious- with the thread being visited by many mods and even the admin himself! Let alone having the title changed and maintaining the thread). So, kindly keep your ill posts to yourself! It is neither allowed and especially not from a member with a title!


I am not taking any shots; this entire thread was without any basis of facts just hear say.


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## Dubious

denel said:


> I am not taking any shots; this entire thread was without any basis of facts just hear say.


You did take a shot with drinking -when you know well that no one takes a liking to that and you arent exactly in friendly terms enough to joke about it hence making it a jibe!

2ndly, are you suggesting the mod and the admin are dead and you single handedly figured something out about this thread?

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> I am not taking any shots; this entire thread was without any basis of facts just hear say.


They don't realise that someone may take them serious and start preparing counters in advance+someone can grow lazy.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

There is no way US will ever sell that to Pakistan.


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## denel

Dubious said:


> You did take a shot with drinking -when you know well that no one takes a liking to that and you arent exactly in friendly terms enough to joke about it hence making it a jibe!
> 
> 2ndly, are you suggesting the mod and the admin are dead and you single handedly figured something out about this thread?


Listen friend, I am not suggesting anything. See how this thread started and how people were falling over. No discredit for mods; they did correct the title. Dont you feel this has gone long enough.

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## Dubious

denel said:


> Dont you feel this has gone long enough.


I think that is up to the admin and the mods, thank you for your kind input but that doesnt justify your below the belt comment of the other member!


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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> They don't realise that someone may take them serious and start preparing counters in advance+someone can grow lazy.


Correct.



Dubious said:


> I think that is up to the admin and the mods, thank you for your kind input but that doesnt justify your below the belt comment of the other member!


That is fine. No further comments from me.
I am surprised how the very same gentleman continued to insult me over and over and harass me; he was not reprimanded and I put him on ignore list.


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## Dubious

denel said:


> I am surprised how the very same gentleman continued to insult me over and over and harass me; he was not reprimanded and I put him on ignore list.


That is your choice! *As per forum rules* you have the report button as well as the choice of mentioning mods for help! 
*This applies to every member.*..No point crying about it later.

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## denel

Dubious said:


> That is your choice! *As per forum rules* you have the report button as well as the choice of mentioning mods for help!
> *This applies to every member.*..No point crying about it later.


Well. I did numerous times and he continued to harass and nothing got done about it.


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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> Correct.


Forget it,i hope someone like those who went to S.A for help in late 90's comes to helms of affairs.
On lighter note,citing Pakistans current condition+geo strategic alignment i doubt there isn't anything else left other than what we discussed.That airframe has space and required stamina to become a true danger for enemies.
There isn't anytime left for new purchase.


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## Dubious

denel said:


> Well. I did numerous times and he continued to harass and nothing got done about it.


Take it to GHQ! You are not a new member but a titled member...Kindly stop trying to derail this thread and take your issues to GHQ! WITH PROOF!


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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Forget it,i hope someone like those who went to S.A for help in back in late 90's comes to helms of affairs.
> On lighter note,citing Pakistans current condition+geo strategic alignment i doubt there isn't anything else left other than what we discussed.That airframe has space and required stamina to become a true danger for enemies.
> There isn't anytime left for new purchase.


Correct. That is where focus needs to be. If M3/5 upgrade path are not followed, I fear M3/5s will be the graveyard for most pilots.



Dubious said:


> Take it to GHQ! You are not a new member but a titled member...Kindly stop trying to derail this thread and take your issues to GHQ! WITH PROOF!


Chill pal. Enjoy your day.
Just check khafee rants and raves on me and his harassments. 
No further discussions. Moving on. Good day.

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> Correct. That is where focus needs to be. If M3/5 upgrade path are not followed, I fear M3/5s will be the graveyard for most pilots.


It would be no doubt, a package of HMS and A-Darter would make anyone run for life, couple it with a duel secure data link(for both type of AWACS) for firing BVR's you are good to go.
I was looking at some cheetah airframe changes and i suppose that it has some nasty surprise in it.

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## Haris Ali2140

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> It would be no doubt, a package of HMS and A-Darter would make anyone run for life, couple it with a duel secure data link(for both type of AWACS) for firing BVR's you are good to go.
> I was looking at some cheetah airframe changes and i suppose that it has some nasty surprise in it.


I heard someone on this forum that since the production of M3/M5 has been stopped we can modify it as much as we want.


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## Sine Nomine

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I heard someone on this forum that since the production of M3/M5 has been stopped we can modify it as much as we want.


We can,we did it during Rose upgrade.


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## Haris Ali2140

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> We can,we did it during Rose upgrade.


I think the main problem is finances. Otherwise 100 modified M3/M5s with AESA + 150JF-17 with AESA armed with BVR will give nightmares to any airforce.

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## denel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I think the main problem is finances. Otherwise 100 modified M3/M5s with AESA + 150JF-17 with AESA armed with BVR will give nightmares to any airforce.


we have good discussion going on the Mirage thread, please follow up there.

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## VCheng

Austin Powers said:


> There is no way US will ever sell that to Pakistan.



Never say never. If Pakistan can make the case for how such a deal would help US national interests, it will definitely become possible.

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## Sine Nomine

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I think the main problem is finances. Otherwise 100 modified M3/M5s with AESA + 150JF-17 with AESA armed with BVR will give nightmares to any airforce.


We don't need AESA for them,using everything from old mirages,just rebuild airframe using same drawing as M5 having elements of Atlas cheetah and RD-93 as power plant.A data link between PAF AWACS and new fighter would be enough.Mind that it's only meant for CAS and Strikes.

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## araz

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> We don't need AESA for them,using everything from old mirages,just rebuild airframe using same drawing as M5 having elements of Atlas cheetah and RD-93 as power plant.A data link between PAF AWACS and new fighter would be enough.Mind that it's only meant for CAS and Strikes.


A cost to benefiit exercise needs to be done. To play the devil's advocate we have saved up the M3/5S for a very specialist role. Their A2A role is going to be secondary if at all and as a last resort. If it does occur the Nukes will lalready be on their way. So if we want to imrove them with changes wht purpose will they serve and will they be good for this? Design parameters of a plane determine its utility and in an A2A role after changes will they become more effective. If not then we are making changes for the sake of making changes.
The cost per plane assuming 150 need upgrading could rise upto 10 to 15 million a pop. So 1.5 billion down the line what will be the end result and would it be worth the hassle time research and facility setup?
Then do we have the facilities to do so and if we are advocating atlas carries out the work their overheads vs the benefits. This is the question one needs to explore before we go any further.
Personally I think PAF has always been aware of the SA connection. They went to them to procure wings for the M3/5 s. But PAF has not gone the whole hog which means the utility is just not there.
A

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## Myth_buster_1

denel said:


> Listen friend, I am not suggesting anything. See how this thread started and how people were falling over. No discredit for mods; they did correct the title. Dont you feel this has gone long enough.



exactly, PDFers are going crazy over a rumor.

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## TsAr

denel said:


> I am not taking any shots; this entire thread was without any basis of facts just hear say.


Every news comes out of hear say. Now what matters is that who is it coming from. @Khafee is a respected title holder, he would not share something without any concrete evidence. This deal is being worked on, it could get through or not only time will tell.

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## NA71

"IK has given Mr.Trump a preliminary approval for the F16s, pertaining a mutually acceptable T&C's.
The formal announcement could be coming soon i.e. with in a week from the US side IA."

*Khafee quoted today in other forum.*

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## The Eagle

Excerpt from a source suggests that...


_NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) will begin supplying wings for its F-16 combat jets from a facility in southern India from next year, a senior executive said on Thursday.

Lockheed is bidding for a contract, estimated at more than $15 billion, to supply the Indian Air Force with 114 combat planes and has offered to shift its F-16 production line from the United States to India. It plans to build an upgraded version of the aircraft which it calls F-21.

Vivek Lall, vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said the wings of all future F-16s that the company will sell worldwide will be produced in a joint venture with India’s Tata Advanced Systems in the southern city of Hyderabad._

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## Sine Nomine

araz said:


> A cost to benefiit exercise needs to be done. To play the devil's advocate we have saved up the M3/5S for a very specialist role. Their A2A role is going to be secondary if at all and as a last resort. If it does occur the Nukes will lalready be on their way. So if we want to imrove them with changes wht purpose will they serve and will they be good for this? Design parameters of a plane determine its utility and in an A2A role after changes will they become more effective. If not then we are making changes for the sake of making changes.
> The cost per plane assuming 150 need upgrading could rise upto 10 to 15 million a pop. So 1.5 billion down the line what will be the end result and would it be worth the hassle time research and facility setup?
> Then do we have the facilities to do so and if we are advocating atlas carries out the work their overheads vs the benefits. This is the question one needs to explore before we go any further.
> Personally I think PAF has always been aware of the SA connection. They went to them to procure wings for the M3/5 s.


I would try penning down one.


araz said:


> But PAF has not gone the whole hog which means the utility is just not there.


Their are things which strike our mind only when utility arises.
As an old saying goes by Necessity is the mother of invention.



The Eagle said:


> Excerpt from a source suggests that...
> 
> 
> _NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) will begin supplying wings for its F-16 combat jets from a facility in southern India from next year, a senior executive said on Thursday.
> 
> Lockheed is bidding for a contract, estimated at more than $15 billion, to supply the Indian Air Force with 114 combat planes and has offered to shift its F-16 production line from the United States to India. It plans to build an upgraded version of the aircraft which it calls F-21.
> 
> Vivek Lall, vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said the wings of all future F-16s that the company will sell worldwide will be produced in a joint venture with India’s Tata Advanced Systems in the southern city of Hyderabad._


Rafale won't let that happen.

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## The Eagle

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Rafale won't let that happen.



I think this is about single engine requirement, most probably and in view of last beating on 27th Feb as well as Modi's downed graph at present; Doval company can risk further 15Billion$ to isolate us further. Remember that, be it Rafale or Putin; we are dealing with a fascist & highly hyper & intolerant enemy that can go to any length merely to harm our strategic interest.

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> I think this is about single engine requirement, most probably and in view of last beating on 27th Feb as well as Modi's downed graph at present; Doval company can risk further 15Billion$ to isolate us further. Remember that, be it Rafale or Putin; we are dealing with a fascist & highly hyper & intolerant enemy that can go to any length merely to harm our strategic interest.


Current financial crisis I doubt india will go for F16s along 72 Rafales



The Eagle said:


> I think this is about single engine requirement, most probably and in view of last beating on 27th Feb as well as Modi's downed graph at present; Doval company can risk further 15Billion$ to isolate us further. Remember that, be it Rafale or Putin; we are dealing with a fascist & highly hyper & intolerant enemy that can go to any length merely to harm our strategic interest.


India will end up Mig 35 along more Su 30 MKI

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## Sine Nomine

The Eagle said:


> I think this is about single engine requirement, most probably and in view of last beating on 27th Feb as well as Modi's downed graph at present; Doval company can risk further 15Billion$ to isolate us further. Remember that, be it Rafale or Putin; we are dealing with a fascist & highly hyper & intolerant enemy that can go to any length merely to harm our strategic interest.


Yup biggest problem is that they are religious fanatics and are under command of lunatics.

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## Vapnope

The price tag of these planes is not only billions of US dollars but also the acceptance of status quo on IOK.


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## Indx-techs

mingle said:


> Current financial crisis I doubt india will go for F16s along 72 Rafales


"Slowdown" isn't a financial crisis. Government's revenue has doubled since 2014 and still increasing.
Even the slowdown of Indian economy is cyclical and comes in every 8 years to stay for 1-2 years. Entire slowdown was recovered and actually surplus in GDP was added in just 3 days by adding $150 billions in economy with tax exemption.
https://m.economictimes.com/markets...s-2-road-bumps-ahead/articleshow/71270431.cms


mingle said:


> India will end up Mig 35 along more Su 30 MKI


More Su-30 MKI and Rafaels. Not MiG-35. 83 Tejas FOC (first will this year) and Tejas MWF after development. MiG-21 are here to stay till 2025.


F-16 manufacturing is just a push by LM for private vendors as it beared in interest from government.


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## loanranger

Vapnope said:


> The price tag of these planes is not only billions of US dollars but also the acceptance of status quo on IOK.


Hope not. I think we are getting them jets for maintaining US influence in Afg only.


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## The Eagle

mingle said:


> India will end up Mig 35 along more Su 30 MKI



Once India makes decision, we will benefit for our interests be it one way or another.

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## PakShaheen79

Here is how it is all going to play out.

The moment US will announce that it is going to supply Pakistan with latest block of F-16 which carries certain 5th generation technologies as well, India will have no other option but to make a bigger offer to stop that deal and that's exactly what Uncle Sam wants. LM has done everything they could to make India agree on their terms and conditions, now they have played their master card. Even if India still opts for more Rafale, US lawmakers will find new excuse to stop the sale to Pakistan.

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## Trailer23

@PakShaheen79 
I'm not certain if I follow what you're trying imply... I'll break up your points in 3.
*1*


PakShaheen79 said:


> The moment US will announce that it is going to supply Pakistan with latest block of F-16 which carries certain 5th generation technologies as well, India will have no other option but to make a bigger offer to stop that deal and that's exactly what Uncle Sam wants.



*2*


PakShaheen79 said:


> ...India still opts for more Rafale



*3*


PakShaheen79 said:


> US lawmakers will find new excuse to stop the sale to Pakistan.


So (if) what you're saying is that US Lawmakers will find an excuse to stop the Sale to Pakistan knowing full well India is going for Rafales.

Why go through all that drama, and just reject the offer from the get-go?

And someone said that the President has the final say if Congress opts out.

Finally, the Lockheed Martin F-21 pitch to India was a dead stick the second the offer was made. The news never garnered any momentum in MoD of India regardless various attempts from Lockheed Martin India.


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## Foxtrot Delta

New f-16 for pakistan is a no no. We should just have old ones upgraded to V standard and Aesa radars.

F-16s need retiring around 2030s in PAF we should look towards up coming projects from China, Korea and turkey. Perhaps joint venture with turkey. Seperate from 5th gen aircraft that alsp may find ots way into paf inventory soon.

We need 1 more 4.5 gen join venture aircraft with china or turkey perhaps joint pak china turkey & or russia project.


F-16 and near future american sanctions... I'd say don't depend on america. Let indians take the fall this time. After such a long time USA has no leverage on pakistan. We should keep it this way.

Biggest advantage we would have against imdia would be. 

It would take india 10+ years to master f-16s and come on level of paf may be 15 years. We know f-16 at the palm of our hands. We know its flaws and it's advantages better than even americans do.

F-16 for india would be not that bad infact we would be better fighting f-16 block 70 than fighting Rafale. 

Lets see what happens but i for one don't want to see any new f-16s. Just upgrade the old ones ajf make imdegeous new aircraft.

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## loanranger

Foxtrot Delta said:


> New f-16 for pakistan is a no no. We should just have old ones upgraded to V standard and Aesa radars.
> 
> F-16s need retiring around 2030s in PAF we should look towards up coming projects from China, Korea and turkey. Perhaps joint venture with turkey. Seperate from 5th gen aircraft that alsp may find ots way into paf inventory soon.
> 
> We need 1 more 4.5 gen join venture aircraft with china or turkey perhaps joint pak china turkey & or russia project.
> 
> 
> F-16 and near future american sanctions... I'd say don't depend on america. Let indians take the fall this time. After such a long time USA has no leverage on pakistan. We should keep it this way.
> 
> Biggest advantage we would have against imdia would be.
> 
> It would take india 10+ years to master f-16s and come on level of paf may be 15 years. We know f-16 at the palm of our hands. We know its flaws and it's advantages better than even americans do.
> 
> F-16 for india would be not that bad infact we would be better fighting f-16 block 70 than fighting Rafale.
> 
> Lets see what happens but i for one don't want to see any new f-16s. Just upgrade the old ones ajf make imdegeous new aircraft.


You need a counter to Rafale . Blk 70 provides the solution BUT it is not a long term solution for other problems. So fifth gen fighter procurement is a top priority

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## Haris Ali2140

My 2 cents:

India has released tender for MMRCA 2. Which to my knowledge is for a single engine. Only F-16 and Gripen fall into the category for IAF. Gripen will be sanctioned because US will sell its own product. If IAF chooses F-16 then it will be difficult for PAF to maintain F-16 fleet till 2030-40 as mentioned by some members. Even if we get our hands on some F-16s it will be used B-52s which won't stand a chance against the inventory of IAF in the coming future.

Now besides F-16s only viable options for PAF are Russia and China. US,UK and France won't sell not only because of finances but also for their strategic interests. Russians are notorious for maintenance and they wont be willing to transfer either production or assembly for the numbers which PAF will go.

From China the obvious jet is J10. Many members say that J10 doesn't offer much with respect to JF-17. But it can carry can carry almost 10000 kg's & 9 HPs of armament as compared to 6000 kg's & 7 HPs carried by JF-17 and also has higher range. Since it is going to be the back bone of PLAAF it will be constantly upgraded. Pakistan can get it on easy terms and can persuade Chinese to move production to Pakistan.

As for M3/M5 we have them in 100+ numbers. If finances allow Pakistan should definitely go for cheetah like upgrade. As @denel mentioned that mirages engine can be swapped by RD-93s which is ligher,smaller and has higher thrust. Manufacture spares with help from China. The upgraded Mirages will deliver quite a punch to PAF. They will provide PAF a very potent deep strike platform.

The induction of J-10 and upgrade of mirages will be costly but it will give breathing room to PAF. Because AZM which will be available close to 2040s. The gap is too large and F-16s won't hold that long if IAF decides to induct F-16. We need an immediate solution.

Anyone can give his opinion.

@fatman17 @denel @ziaulislam @Quwa @Thorough Pro @Code_Geass @The Eagle @Karam Ali @Windjammer @MUSTAKSHAF @Signalian @Hodor @Knuckles @messiach@pakistanipower @loanranger

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## Ultima Thule

loanranger said:


> You need a counter to Rafale . Blk 70 provides the solution BUT it is not a long term solution for other problems. So fifth gen fighter procurement is a top priority


What option for 5th gen fighter jet we have, Project AZM wont come until after 2030 (first flight) same goes to Turkish TFX, J-31 currently private project and not funded by PLAAF/PLAAN and for Su-57/F-35 just forget it , we need interim fighter that would be inducted to counter RAFALE untill 5th gen jet will be inducted by PAF, and these options are either we can go for MIG-35 or J-10C @loanranger

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## ziaulislam

Haris Ali2140 said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> India has released tender for MMRCA 2. Which to my knowledge is for a single engine. Only F-16 and Gripen fall into the category for IAF. Gripen will be sanctioned because US will sell its own product. If IAF chooses F-16 then it will be difficult for PAF to maintain F-16 fleet till 2030-40 as mentioned by some members. Even if we get our hands on some F-16s it will be used B-52s which won't stand a chance against the inventory of IAF in the coming future.
> 
> Now besides F-16s only viable options for PAF are Russia and China. US,UK and France won't sell not only because of finances but also for their strategic interests. Russians are notorious for maintenance and they wont be willing to transfer either production or assembly for the numbers which PAF will go.
> 
> From China the obvious jet is J10. Many members say that J10 doesn't offer much with respect to JF-17. But it can carry can carry almost 10000 kg's & 9 HPs of armament as compared to 6000 kg's & 7 HPs carried by JF-17 and also has higher range. Since it is going to be the back bone of PLAAF it will be constantly upgraded. Pakistan can get it on easy terms and can persuade Chinese to move production to Pakistan.
> 
> As for M3/M5 we have them in 100+ numbers. If finances allow Pakistan should definitely go for cheetah like upgrade. As @denel mentioned that mirages engine can be swapped by RD-93s which is ligher,smaller and has higher thrust. Manufacture spares with help from China. The upgraded Mirages will deliver quite a punch to PAF. They will provide PAF a very potent deep strike platform.
> 
> The induction of J-10 and upgrade of mirages will be costly but it will give breathing room to PAF. Because AZM which will be available close to 2040s. The gap is too large and F-16s won't hold that long if IAF decides to induct F-16. We need an immediate solution.
> 
> Anyone can give his opinion.
> 
> @fatman17 @denel @ziaulislam @Quwa @Thorough Pro @Code_Geass @The Eagle @Karam Ali @Windjammer @MUSTAKSHAF @Signalian @Hodor @Knuckles @messiach@pakistanipower @loanranger


That chapter is closed
IAF will go with more rafales and LCA
No space for gripen or f16

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## Haris Ali2140

ziaulislam said:


> That chapter is closed
> IAF will go with more rafales and LCA
> No space for gripen or f16


But they have released a tender. If they were going for Rafale why release the tender???


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## ziaulislam

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But they have released a tender. If they were going for Rafale why release the tender???


Its RFI not tender

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## Haris Ali2140

ziaulislam said:


> Its RFI not tender


What is RFI???


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## baqai

RFI = Request For Information / Request For Interest this is normally followed by a RFP = Request For Proposals which contains financial and technical feasabilities

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## Haris Ali2140

baqai said:


> RFI = Request For Information / Request For Interest this is normally followed by a RFP = Request For Proposals which contains financial and technical feasabilities


Feasibility for more Rafales???


----------



## loanranger

pakistanipower said:


> What option for 5th gen fighter jet we have, Project AZM wont come until after 2030 (first flight) same goes to Turkish TFX, J-31 currently private project and not funded by PLAAF/PLAAN and for Su-57/F-35 just forget it , we need interim fighter that would be inducted to counter RAFALE untill 5th gen jet will be inducted by PAF, and these options are either we can go for MIG-35 or J-10C @loanranger


I believe we can keep going as we are if we get those block 70s and nuture the JF-17 project and further build on the blk 3. It will buy us time till 2035. But then after 2035 we should have a fifth Gen up and running. Be it indigenous or of the shelf.

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## MIRauf

Indian RFI is a ( C... Block, ) a way to incite other countries to seek selling to IAF for multi-Billion $ product vs taking a chance for much smaller scale selling opportunity to PAF, they will hold that carrot up for years to drag it on. Something only US can resist as it knows it product is the best, Pak must do its best to keep open line of Comm with US.

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Its RFI not tender


Currently they are


MIRauf said:


> Indian RFI is a ( C... Block, ) a way to incite other countries to seek selling to IAF for multi-Billion $ product vs taking a chance for much smaller scale selling opportunity to PAF, they will hold that carrot up for years to drag it on. Something only US can resist as it knows it product is the best, Pak must do its best to keep open line of Comm with US.


My take is instead of extra platform a third type either EU or Russian would cost 3 to 4 billions why not go for F21 made is Pak with 10 to 14 Billion LM can come to Pak with having 200 +++ F16 blk 70 along JF17 blk 3 mirages will cover everything for PAF in mediam term.

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## Haris Ali2140

mingle said:


> Currently they are
> 
> My take is instead of extra platform a third type either EU or Russian would cost 3 to 4 billions why not go for F21 made is Pak with 10 to 14 Billion LM can come to Pak with having 200 +++ F16 blk 70 along JF17 blk 3 mirages will cover everything for PAF in mediam term.


Wont happen.Strategic interests won't allow it.

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## mingle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Wont happen.Strategic interests won't allow it.


F16s are the best bet for Pak for many reason. We used them at feb27 no issue from US side having another platform will cost alot of extra money for infrastructure. Same cost we can have great deal.

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## Haris Ali2140

mingle said:


> F16s are the best bet for Pak for many reason. We used them at feb27 no issue from US side having another platform will cost alot of extra money for infrastructure. Same cost we can have great deal.


We dont know what happened behind closed doors.What is visible is growing relationship between US and India.
Yes I know F16 is the best choice.If Pakistan can get them in this or the next year then good. Otherwise further wait to get F16 will be criminal negligence because the tech gap between IAF and PAF will drastically increase.

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## The Eagle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> We dont know what happened behind closed doors.What is visible is growing relationship between US and India.
> Yes I know F16 is the best choice.If Pakistan can get them in this or the next year then good. Otherwise further wait to get F16 will be criminal negligence because the tech gap between IAF and PAF will drastically increase.



If there is no fruition/done deal, I don't see any wait. PAF is pretty much aware of value of time and strategy.

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## mingle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> We dont know what happened behind closed doors.What is visible is growing relationship between US and India.
> Yes I know F16 is the best choice.If Pakistan can get them in this or the next year then good. Otherwise further wait to get F16 will be criminal negligence because the tech gap between IAF and PAF will drastically increase.


It's my idea beacuse if we want new F16s let's say 34 are about 5 billions if we procure another weapon system let's say 36 Su 35 are about 3 billion 28EF would be around 5 billion why not go and negotiate with LM around 12 billion we can have 100plus F16 made in Pak.

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## ziaulislam

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But they have released a tender. If they were going for Rafale why release the tender???

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


>


Pak should go for F16 made in Pak same LM deal for india can be switch with PAC kamara.


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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> Pak should go for F16 made in Pak same LM deal for india can be switch with PAC kamara.



Impossible, USA will never share sensitive technology with Pakistan. As I said before, we might be able to get Used F-16s if IK play his cards correctly, not sure about block 70.

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## Signalian

jupiter2007 said:


> Impossible, USA will never share *sensitive technology* with Pakistan. As I said before, we might be able to get Used F-16s if IK play his cards correctly, not sure about block 70.


NO stealth there mate, just reduced RCS.

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## Foxtrot Delta

jupiter2007 said:


> Impossible, USA will never share sensitive technology with Pakistan. As I said before, we might be able to get Used F-16s if IK play his cards correctly, not sure about block 70.



it is only because of the fear that chinese and pakistaniz wll copy the F-16 which might be true. they don't care for the airframe as its old now. all they care about is the avionics abord V and blk 70.

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## jupiter2007

Signalian said:


> NO stealth there mate, just reduced RCS.



Getting something off the shelf and building it with technology transferred is two different things.

We will have to wait until the end of year and see if 15 to 18 Used F-16 option is available to us. (Our generals are waiting for that)
Indian lobby is too strong but I am hopeful that we will know something by December 2019.


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## Trango Towers

mingle said:


> Pak should go for F16 made in Pak same LM deal for india can be switch with PAC kamara.


Omg....what wrong with you.
Did they offer this to pakistan?
Is Pakistan buying 100 plus fighters? Is there a tender out?
America would never ever allow pakistan the same deal. Remember who you are?


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## PakShaheen79

Anybody suggessting to invest 12 Billion USD on F-16s must first answer a simple question.

Pay'hey aany kithon ne (Where would money come from?)

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## Haris Ali2140

The Eagle said:


> If there is no fruition/done deal, I don't see any wait. PAF is pretty much aware of value of time and strategy.


Well time is running short. If we do nothing in the next year the tech gap will be too big and we won't be able to catch up.


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## PakShaheen79

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Well time is running short. If we do nothing in the next year the tech gap will be too big and we won't be able to catch up.



And this assertion is based on what?

Pakistan will have always option to mitigate threats through building numerical strength of own fighter. A relatively backward thinking but still it provide a degree of deterrence. 

Though I agree that if we wish something more. A change of strategic mindset in Pindi and Islamabad is critical. PAF must be given top priority in budgeting and our political elite will have to consider this growing qualitative gap vis a vis IAF. We follow so called Active Defense doctrine. A critical appraisal of our balance of power is required in context of this doctrine and gaps must be filled ASAP. For example, why don't we have a long range strategic bomber. We need this as our enemy has vast landmass and a even bigger Ocean mass!


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## ARMalik

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Well time is running short. If we do nothing in the next year the tech gap will be too big and we won't be able to catch up.



This is a rubbish statement. Let's see if you are going to run away like a chicken again, and hide behind a Mod to save your arse this time as well. When you make tall claims and statements like what you have just done, a logical human being *would provide justifications and evidence *of why he thinks there would be such a huge tech leap within *ONE year *and why it would be difficult to catch-up. But here you are, issuing statements without anything to support it. *On what basis are you saying this??*


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## Trango Towers

PakShaheen79 said:


> Anybody suggessting to invest 12 Billion USD on F-16s must first answer a simple question.
> 
> Pay'hey aany kithon ne (Where would money come from?)


Bro...pakistan is not a poor country. If you live in pakistan then your would know. Pakistan has a big problem with corruption and tax collection. If these two are fixed and rule of law applied equally. Our nation would fly

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## Haris Ali2140

PakShaheen79 said:


> *And this assertion is based on what?
> 
> Pakistan will have always option to mitigate threats through building numerical strength of own fighter. A relatively backward thinking but still it provide a degree of deterrence. *
> 
> Though I agree that if we wish something more. A change of strategic mindset in Pindi and Islamabad is critical. PAF must be given top priority in budgeting and our political elite will have to consider this growing qualitative gap vis a vis IAF. We follow so called Active Defense doctrine. A critical appraisal of our balance of power is required in context of this doctrine and gaps must be filled ASAP. For example, why don't we have a long range strategic bomber. We need this as our enemy has vast landmass and a even bigger Ocean mass!



India is going ballistic on procurements. Rafales armed with Meteors will cross B-52s with AAMRAM. Once Rafales are inducted more will follow. Tejas is also coming of age. If it has their in house AESA then it will also equip Meteor.

What I am saying is if there it no development in getting of more F-16s then we should move on to next platform because the current F-16 fleet of PAF wont hold till AZM.


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## The Eagle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Well time is running short. If we do nothing in the next year the tech gap will be too big and we won't be able to catch up.



Our concern are right due to apparent case & no information in public but those planners have all strategies in place & must have been working hard. Especially since 27th Feb, PAF can't live the legacy if there is no plan or things in place to deter & deal with adversary. The bar is set high & will raise to more higher level, therefore, don't expect them to be too lazy or unaware of threat. 

F-16 is a machine that PAF knows like back of hand hence, additional birds & luckily if we can get Viper kits; will in-fact add a lot of punch to PAF that too without wasting much of time. On other hand, any new platform will take more years of induction beside money but this fact is not a deadlock at the moment. Minds are open in regard to plan A or B or C however, it is more feasible to move step by step & utilize every best possible option to save time & money. If plan A doesn't work, like the case of Viper; there is Plan B & so on. 

All I can say at the moment is that; new acquisition is decided & there is no other thought. However, whether it is Viper or any other platform, will be told when the time comes. We have options in East & West.

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## Trango Towers

Haris Ali2140 said:


> India is going ballistic on procurements. Rafales armed with Meteors will cross B-52s with AAMRAM. Once Rafales are inducted more will follow. Tejas is also coming of age. If it has their in house AESA then it will also equip Meteor.
> 
> What I am saying is if there it no development in getting of more F-16s then we should move on to next platform because the current F-16 fleet of PAF wont hold till AZM.


Just relax yaar.
PAF is not asleep..
The nations politicians are but I trust the armed forces. Pakistan now is not the pakistan of 71

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## Basel

mingle said:


> Pak should go for F16 made in Pak same LM deal for india can be switch with PAC kamara.



Its stupidity in current situation as US is now current and future strategic ally of India and they will keep them happy, and Pakistan is transactional ally sine 1947, when work done then sanctions are slammed on Pakistan, so it will be better to have 28-40 EFTs with tech for JFT block-4 or Russian/Chinese bird then any US bird.



Signalian said:


> NO stealth there mate, just reduced RCS.



US don't want to share block-52 tech with Pakistan due to China factor and members here dreaming about making block-70 in Pakistan.



Foxtrot Delta said:


> it is only because of the fear that chinese and pakistaniz wll copy the F-16 which might be true. they don't care for the airframe as its old now. all they care about is the avionics abord V and blk 70.



There are other stuff too in F-16s which US want to hide from China, like engine tech and materials used in airframe and how strong structure are made etc.



Haris Ali2140 said:


> India is going ballistic on procurements. Rafales armed with Meteors will cross B-52s with AAMRAM. Once Rafales are inducted more will follow. Tejas is also coming of age. If it has their in house AESA then it will also equip Meteor.
> 
> What I am saying is if there it no development in getting of more F-16s then we should move on to next platform because the current F-16 fleet of PAF wont hold till AZM.



That is why EFTs with tech for JFT block-4 are best bet as block -4 based on latest EFT trench tech will be beast to have.

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## Haris Ali2140

Basel said:


> Its stupidity in current situation as US is now current and future strategic ally of India and they will keep them happy, and Pakistan is transactional ally sine 1947, when work done then sanctions are slammed on Pakistan, so it will be better to have 28-40 EFTs with tech for JFT block-4 or Russian/Chinese bird then any US bird.
> 
> 
> 
> US don't want to share block-52 tech with Pakistan due to China factor and members here dreaming about making block-70 in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> There are other stuff too in F-16s which US want to hide from China, like engine tech and materials used in airframe and how strong structure are made etc.
> 
> 
> 
> That is why EFTs with tech for JFT block-4 are best bet as block -4 based on latest EFT trench tech will be beast to have.


EFTs are expensive to buy and also to maintain. I think the most ideal solution is J-10. J-10 will be continuously upgraded since it will form the back bone of PLAAF. Pakistan can get it own softer terms and also move production to back home if procured in 100+ numbers.


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## Trailer23

baqai said:


> RFI = Request For Information / Request For Interest this is normally followed by a RFP = Request For Proposals which contains financial and technical feasabilities


Yeah, and anyone who has ever been on the *Indian Defense Forum* will understand the sheer frustration that goes on with the counterpart Members of that forum.

There are MoU's, RFI's, RFP's for new Aircrafts followed by a competition which (always) includes the usual suspects...

*US:* F-18 (Super Hornet) and F-16/F-21 (never the F-15 Strike Eagle)
*Europe/UK:* EuroFighter (Typhoon)
*Sweden:* GripenNG
*France:* Dassault Rafale
*Russia:* Su-30/35 and MiG-35

This bloody drama goes back 'n' forth with a lot corruption kickbacks for years.

The MoD gives their assessment which is followed by disagreements from the Opposition in the Parliament.

Their Shahid Latif's & Kaiser Tufail's of India give their inside information which contradicts with the standing Government.

This cycle goes on till the very next Election.

@Haris Ali2140

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## Basel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> EFTs are expensive to buy and also to maintain. I think the most ideal solution is J-10. J-10 will be continuously upgraded since it will form the back bone of PLAAF. Pakistan can get it own softer terms and also move production to back home if procured in 100+ numbers.



They are bit expensive but if tech is procured for JFT block-4 then it will not be expensive to maintain as most systems will be overhauled and maintained in Pakistan including engine.


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## Haris Ali2140

Basel said:


> They are bit expensive but if tech is procured for JFT block-4 then it will not be expensive to maintain as most systems will be overhauled and maintained in Pakistan including engine.


You are right in terms of EFT but you also have to keep embargo in mind just like F-16s.

But I think Pakistan should move towards indigenous solutions and more JVs especially with Turkey for avionics because of Uighyr issue with China if that issue is not solved in near future.


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## Basel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> You are right in terms of EFT but you also have to keep embargo in mind just like F-16s.
> 
> But I think Pakistan should move towards indigenous solutions and more JVs especially with Turkey for avionics because of Uighyr issue with China if that issue is not solved in near future.



EU will not pit embargo like US if Pakistan play its card well, we can get EJ-200/230 class engine with full overhaul capacity if we play our cards well, remember EU companies are still working with Pakistan in military field and are will to expand cooperation.

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## Signalian

Basel said:


> US don't want to share block-52 tech with Pakistan due to China factor and members here dreaming about making block-70 in Pakistan.


Has Pakistan requested TOT for F-16 from USA ? Has PAF requested LM for manufacturing in Pakistan ?


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## truthseeker2010

Signalian said:


> Has Pakistan requested TOT for F-16 from USA ? Has PAF requested LM for manufacturing in Pakistan ?



No pakistan did not bcoz thats not possible.


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## Basel

Signalian said:


> Has Pakistan requested TOT for F-16 from USA ? Has PAF requested LM for manufacturing in Pakistan ?



This is what members suggested


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## Signalian

loanranger said:


> Someone on pdf posted some link of the US DoD the other day of f16 engine upgrade tenders in the name of Pakistan and other countries and one other item... funny how none is talking about that


Competing with Indian members has affected the thinking pattern of Pakistani members, who are now more concerned about weapon acquisitions since India has started a weapons race in subcontinent. It cannot be tit-for-tat in every case. India buys xyz so Pakistan has to buy abc to counter it ? No, because in many aspects Pakistan already has the weaponry to defend itself from Indian future weapon acquisition. On paper and on threads it was portrayed since past decade as if SU-30 will eat JF-17 in a jiffy - all that talk has gone down the drain since Feb 2019.

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## truthseeker2010

Signalian said:


> Competing with Indian members has affected the thinking pattern of Pakistani members, who are now more concerned about weapon acquisitions since India has started a weapons race in subcontinent. It cannot be tit-for-tat in every case. India buys xyz so Pakistan has to buy abc to counter it ? No, because in many aspects Pakistan already has the weaponry to defend itself from Indian future weapon acquisition. On paper and on threads it was portrayed since past decade as if SU-30 will eat JF-17 in a jiffy - all that talk has gone down the drain since Feb 2019.



Is it a surprize? Keyboard warriors don't have an iota of idea of how actual battlefield works.....


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## The Eagle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> you also have to keep embargo in mind just like F-16s.



If we have noticed; Imran Khan clearly mentioned the trust deficit between Pakistan US especially since Pressler Sanctions; Pakistanis aren't much open to trust US. He even quoted George Bush Jr. who said, it will not happen again..... that means; if this offer comes to materialize; we aren't buying something more pron to sanctions this time. Furthermore, I do feel that we aren't objecting whatever others sell to India & hence, there is no limitations for kind of weapon of choice for India; Pakistan will too buy whatever we can and the rest will be decided in the war theater. Not to forget that we have been kept too short of our length while on other hand, India has been on shopping spree without any limit & provided with everything available in the market. ALLAH ne izzat rakh li and our training, hard work & dedication as well; gave us victory.

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## Haris Ali2140

Signalian said:


> Competing with Indian members has affected the thinking pattern of Pakistani members, who are now more concerned about weapon acquisitions since India has started a weapons race in subcontinent. It cannot be tit-for-tat in every case. India buys xyz so Pakistan has to buy abc to counter it ? No, because in many aspects Pakistan already has the weaponry to defend itself from Indian future weapon acquisition. On paper and on threads it was portrayed since past decade as if SU-30 will eat JF-17 in a jiffy - all that talk has gone down the drain since Feb 2019.



No disrespect but,will these engine upgrades protect the F-16s from jammers of Rafales???


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## batmannow

Haris Ali2140 said:


> No disrespect but,will these engine upgrades protect the F-16s from jammers of Rafales???


Actully no such things, it's jst wasted prapoganda, some high level militry officials and some sectry level ppls making crouption if not let's open it a, free and fair commision of areonotics and go in debth, queries?
U ill see many ill run away? Lol
No matter what BLK, thy may book but its a dam crystal clear that F16S are under dogs, against RAFAEL but later comes the man behind machine?
Tht I'll take IAF about at least 3 to 5 years to get to know that bird well and Thts a lota time?


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## Signalian

Haris Ali2140 said:


> No disrespect but,will these engine upgrades protect the F-16s from jammers of Rafales???


Wrong Question.

EW Falcon DA-20 will be giving cover to F-16's and JF-17's when a Rafale decides to makes an appearance, so what will protect Rafale when an Aim120C5 or SD-10 is homing in on it and it will be continuously spot jammed or sweep jammed or even base jammed or a combination of jamming is occurring ?

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## Haris Ali2140

Signalian said:


> Wrong Question.
> 
> EW Falcon DA-20 will be giving cover to F-16's and JF-17's when a Rafale decides to makes an appearance, so what will protect Rafale when an Aim120C5 or SD-10 is homing in on it and it will be continuously spot jammed or sweep jammed or even base jammed or a combination of jamming is occurring ?


Will DA-20 always accompany F-16 and JF-17???


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## loanranger

Signalian said:


> Competing with Indian members has affected the thinking pattern of Pakistani members, who are now more concerned about weapon acquisitions since India has started a weapons race in subcontinent. It cannot be tit-for-tat in every case. India buys xyz so Pakistan has to buy abc to counter it ? No, because in many aspects Pakistan already has the weaponry to defend itself from Indian future weapon acquisition. On paper and on threads it was portrayed since past decade as if SU-30 will eat JF-17 in a jiffy - all that talk has gone down the drain since Feb 2019.


I agree with you. It cannot be tit for tat all the time nor is it reasonable. My post was just to indicate the fact that we are still getting maintainance of our f 16 engines and upgrades to the Link 16. This is not new weapon acquisition.

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## Signalian

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Will DA-20 always accompany F-16 and JF-17???


Not just that but also AWACs.

What do you know about the electronic warfare suite of JFT Block III ?

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## Path-Finder

Signalian said:


> Wrong Question.
> 
> EW Falcon DA-20 will be giving cover to F-16's and JF-17's when a Rafale decides to makes an appearance, so what will protect Rafale when an Aim120C5 or SD-10 is homing in on it and it will be continuously spot jammed or sweep jammed or even base jammed or a combination of jamming is occurring ?


Is there a need to expand on a platform like DA-20?


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## Signalian

Path-Finder said:


> Is there a need to expand on a platform like DA-20?


Yes, a bigger transmitter with more power for jamming is always necessary. DA-20 is not a fighter aircraft. F-16 or JF-17 should have an EW variant.

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## Khafee

Signalian said:


> Yes, a bigger transmitter with more power for jamming is always necessary. DA-20 is not a fighter aircraft. F-16 or JF-17 should have an EW variant.


Dont the F16D have some serious EW capabilities...?

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## raja786

What I have learned and calculated from history is that we are not going to get any offensive weapons from west anymore, after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan they helped us only to bleed Soviet troops a well calculated move by US. After the fall of Soviet union world moved to a different direction, our goals and ambitions dont match up to western world and never will, so no more cutting edge tec for Pakistan. These are the facts but there are theories and religious facts regarding a great war, people calculate all these scenarios and they are well informed. Time and situation will form a alliance and I see China in middle of everything related to Pakistan and Muslim world. We will get and make weapons of choice with help of china and Turkey and some input from here and there. What kinda weapons and what kinda help is open for debate. 
This is what I think and I can be wrong all together.


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## Signalian

Aamir Hussain said:


> Any news on Block 70??


Yes. Source is inside GHQ.

Trump told IK that Congress has given the green light. The flow chart of Centcom -> Trump -> Congress is cleared.
Now the whole deal depends on the Terms & Conditions as well as strings attached with the deal, i.e. If Pakistan accepts.

@The Eagle
Tagging you coz i know this thread could be closed anytime and i have just given an update.

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## Mentee

Fine example of classic Lockheed Martin trap. Instead of exploring new venues we are still stuck with the never ending f16 romance. I'd rather ask for economic deals than this blow to our national security. Allah kry Lockheed default kr Jay


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## Signalian

Khafee said:


> Dont the F16D have some serious EW capabilities...?


That is correct

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## Viper27

Signalian said:


> Yes. Source is inside GHQ.
> 
> Trump told IK that Congress has given the green light. The flow chart of Centcom -> Trump -> Congress is cleared.
> Now the whole deal depends on the Terms & Conditions as well as strings attached with the deal, i.e. If Pakistan accepts.
> 
> @The Eagle
> Tagging you coz i know this thread could be closed anytime and i have just given an update.



Any news on the number of jets Pakistan is intending to purchase? New Block 70s or older airframes upgraded to V standard?

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## The Eagle

Signalian said:


> Tagging you coz i know this thread could be closed anytime and i have just given an update.



Got same information with additional information/a fair worry to be precisely from different sources.

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## mingle

Signalian said:


> Yes. Source is inside GHQ.
> 
> Trump told IK that Congress has given the green light. The flow chart of Centcom -> Trump -> Congress is cleared.
> Now the whole deal depends on the Terms & Conditions as well as strings attached with the deal, i.e. If Pakistan accepts.
> 
> @The Eagle
> Tagging you coz i know this thread could be closed anytime and i have just given an update.


As @Khafee said in other forum US deep state and military Establishment is not feeling good for Modi and company they don't feel good about theior intentions towards Pak. Americans are super power they run the world they not idiots. they will build Pak capacity to deter any Indian adventure.

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## Dubious

Signalian said:


> Yes. Source is inside GHQ.
> 
> Trump told IK that Congress has given the green light. The flow chart of Centcom -> Trump -> Congress is cleared.
> Now the whole deal depends on the Terms & Conditions as well as strings attached with the deal, i.e. If Pakistan accepts.
> 
> @The Eagle
> Tagging you coz i know this thread could be closed anytime and i have just given an update.


Thread will run..anyone having problems can take it to @WebMaster directly!



The Eagle said:


> Got same information with additional information/a fair worry to be precisely from different sources.


care to share?

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## mingle

Viper27 said:


> Any news on the number of jets Pakistan is intending to purchase? New Block 70s or older airframes upgraded to V standard?


Wait things will announce soon

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## Viper27

mingle said:


> Wait things will announce soon



I understand. Only asking because Block 70s won't come cheap especially if bought new & with PAF working on JF-17 and other projects it won't be easy to arrange funding if US doesn't support through CSF.


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## The Eagle

Dubious said:


> care to share?



Will talk by some other time or at other place.... however, what I want to say not related to local sources like @Khafee or even anyone else; IK may be bringing the page full of T&C and we will have to quickly sort that out whether it is in our favour or there are harmful strings. Any string in regard to even a bit of compromise over sovereignty will result that THANK YOU FOR YOUR OFFER BUT WE ARE NOT BUYING, LETS GET TO THE _*BUSINESS*_.

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## mingle

Viper27 said:


> I understand. Only asking because Block 70s won't come cheap especially if bought new & with PAF working on JF-17 and other projects it won't be easy to arrange funding if US doesn't support through CSF.


We need these planes as many as we can new and old it's best answer to Rafale

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## Dubious

The Eagle said:


> Will talk by some other time or at other place.... however, what I want to say not related to local sources like @Khafee or even anyone else; IK may be bringing the page full of T&C and we will have to quickly sort that out whether it is in our favour or there are harmful strings. Any string in regard to even a bit of compromise over sovereignty will result that THANK YOU FOR YOUR OFFER BUT WE ARE NOT BUYING, LETS GET TO THE _*BUSINESS*_.


Hence what @Signalian posted:



Signalian said:


> Yes. Source is inside GHQ.
> 
> Trump told IK that Congress has given the green light. The flow chart of Centcom -> Trump -> Congress is cleared.
> *Now the whole deal depends on the Terms & Conditions as well as strings attached with the deal, i.e. If Pakistan accepts.*

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## The Eagle

Dubious said:


> Hence what @Signalian posted:



Yes and I was looking at some not very appreciated possible condition. Once, I am able to read it clearly as what it is, if there are such T&Cs in the first place; I will really disclose what I observed and there will be a witness to that too.

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## Haris Ali2140

Signalian said:


> Not just that but also AWACs.
> 
> What do you know about the electronic warfare suite of JFT Block III ?


Absolutely nothing.

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## mingle

Viper27 said:


> I understand. Only asking because Block 70s won't come cheap especially if bought new & with PAF working on JF-17 and other projects it won't be easy to arrange funding if US doesn't support through CSF.


There is no CSF allotment in current fiscal budget of pentagon but they can pass a separate amendment for Pak CSF.

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> Will talk by some other time or at other place.... however, what I want to say not related to local sources like @Khafee or even anyone else; IK may be bringing the page full of T&C and we will have to quickly sort that out whether it is in our favour or there are harmful strings. Any string in regard to even a bit of compromise over sovereignty will result that THANK YOU FOR YOUR OFFER BUT WE ARE NOT BUYING, LETS GET TO THE _*BUSINESS*_.


If these match with previous deal blk 52 we should go for it.



The Eagle said:


> Will talk by some other time or at other place.... however, what I want to say not related to local sources like @Khafee or even anyone else; IK may be bringing the page full of T&C and we will have to quickly sort that out whether it is in our favour or there are harmful strings. Any string in regard to even a bit of compromise over sovereignty will result that THANK YOU FOR YOUR OFFER BUT WE ARE NOT BUYING, LETS GET TO THE _*BUSINESS*_.


Any idea how many copies we looking??? Along used Airframes??? We should go for more cobras as well along used C130s


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## The Eagle

mingle said:


> If these match with previous deal blk 52 we should go for it.



If, it is the case then we are not much in worry area. Though, current affairs and rapid change in geopolitics can make it a bit of bumpy ride so either we choose foolishly or we rise & shine once for all. The point that I observe, has a value that IK said about trust deficit with US. He clearly mentioned our support in Afghan war of 80s and then Pressler sanctions and abandoning us. Then he went on with post 9/11 support for US despite strong reservations but then G.W. Bush Jr promised that it wouldn't be like previous (in-fact they accepted as how they abandoned us) but then again, he highlighted many issues & mistrust in view of our losses due to war on terrorism. 

Whether such deal/offer comes to fruition or not; he made it pretty much clear that this time, US too has to work out more than before with concrete evidence & will to respect mutual interest. US can't serve only their national interest.

I was of the opinion that Afghan peace talks will strengthen our case but that we see, has already gone into cold storage that too with a tweet and that's it. Then I see, as why wouldn't Russia will interest to save their national interest and may well seek our help. Then we have China as well that knows as how much Pakistan done for these peace talks. On the other hand, even US suspended the peace talks, there exist the possibility of resumption and beside that, I don't think so that Pentagon will ever wish to loose Pakistan trust for any support in Afghanistan and they know for fact as we do have much more important role than anyone else in this regard. So the bargain chip for Vipers or Cobras may remain Afghanistan & Taliban either by resolution of conflict with peace talks or some other way or kind of arrangements where US has a graceful exit without even signing any contract. (I feel like I have reached a point where I need to stop so pardon me for leaving this point as open ended without any conclusion).




mingle said:


> Any idea how many copies we looking??? Along used Airframes??? We should go for more cobras as well along used C130s



The figure is not confirm or you can say there is no official authenticity. I can guess that 36 was the requirement but it was mentioned here as 24 is the go for new Vipers + upgrade existing fleet of 76 to Viper & then a possible 20 used airframes being bought & upgraded to V level. Actually we are looking at some strong fleet of 120 in Viper configuration. Can you imagine US agreeing for all this in lieu of something less valued? Things are bit complex but as I said above, there are possibilities. 

We can't forget that US always claims to maintain balance of military in certain regions merely to keep up her influence. D.C will play the same role here (not for the sake of influence but in-fact for many other reasons as discussed above) when IAF is shopping a lot especially Rafale are coming to the theater with some goodies and possible additions & extra platforms as well. US may not have much of alliance with Pakistan but then again, if India does not feel threatened by Pakistan & China; how could weapon dealers can capture Indian market/earn some good money. On other hand, if US is not selling anything capable, beside losing Indian interest of more weapons; there will be other suppliers that may work with PAF in addition to our own product so US can play both side and earn everything which is a fair game per US interests.

Cobras possibility does exist but there is no chatter about C130s at the moment. Seems like Cobras will make it earlier than Viper kits however, in the end it all depends if such deal/offer comes to reality & being done in real time. 

I can be wrong & I welcome any correction but I say, I don't claim anything but observed.

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## Sine Nomine

The Eagle said:


> Yes and I was looking at some not very appreciated possible condition. Once, I am able to read it clearly as what it is, if there are such T&Cs in the first place; I will really disclose what I observed and there will be a witness to that too.


I can see one thing,if this whole thing comes to see light of day,then Technical Security Team (TST) personal would be in Pakistan for more then another decade.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

@The Eagle 
Some time back @Windjammer had stated that KC-135 were also on PAF radars along with other stuff, any updates in this regards because having 120-150 F-16's without aerial refuelers do not make a lot of sence.

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## The Eagle

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> I can see one thing,if this whole thing comes to see light of day,then Technical Security Team (TST) personal would be in Pakistan for more then another decade.



Yes and I wouldn't be surprised as we have them already.



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> @The Eagle
> Some time back @Windjammer had stated that KC-135 were also on PAF radars along with other stuff, any updates in this regards because having 120-150 F-16's without aerial refuelers do not make a lot of sence.



Na bhai. After all, wouldn't need or there is not much of utilization of refuelers for us. Drop tank or CFT combination is good enough.

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## Sine Nomine

The Eagle said:


> Yes and I wouldn't be surprised as we have them already.


Uncle has renewed contract on which gangus were making lot of noise.Uncle knows that if we won't upgrade,then down the road Pakistanis would start doing that themselves and how much stoppage of spares can hurt them is not known(citing the fact we are ourselves manufacturers),this upgrade would balance everything in S.A in terms of Air Power.

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> If, it is the case then we are not much in worry area. Though, current affairs and rapid change in geopolitics can make it a bit of bumpy ride so either we choose foolishly or we rise & shine once for all. The point that I observe, has a value that IK said about trust deficit with US. He clearly mentioned our support in Afghan war of 80s and then Pressler sanctions and abandoning us. Then he went on with post 9/11 support for US despite strong reservations but then G.W. Bush Jr promised that it wouldn't be like previous (in-fact they accepted as how they abandoned us) but then again, he highlighted many issues & mistrust in view of our losses due to war on terrorism.
> 
> Whether such deal/offer comes to fruition or not; he made it pretty much clear that this time, US too has to work out more than before with concrete evidence & will to respect mutual interest. US can't serve only their national interest.
> 
> I was of the opinion that Afghan peace talks will strengthen our case but that we see, has already gone into cold storage that too with a tweet and that's it. Then I see, as why wouldn't Russia will interest to save their national interest and may well seek our help. Then we have China as well that knows as how much Pakistan done for these peace talks. On the other hand, even US suspended the peace talks, there exist the possibility of resumption and beside that, I don't think so that Pentagon will ever wish to loose Pakistan trust for any support in Afghanistan and they know for fact as we do have much more important role than anyone else in this regard. So the bargain chip for Vipers or Cobras may remain Afghanistan & Taliban either by resolution of conflict with peace talks or some other way or kind of arrangements where US has a graceful exit without even signing any contract. (I feel like I have reached a point where I need to stop so pardon me for leaving this point as open ended without any conclusion).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The figure is not confirm or you can say there is no official authenticity. I can guess that 36 was the requirement but it was mentioned here as 24 is the go for new Vipers + upgrade existing fleet of 76 to Viper & then a possible 20 used airframes being bought & upgraded to V level. Actually we are looking at some strong fleet of 120 in Viper configuration. Can you imagine US agreeing for all this in lieu of something less valued? Things are bit complex but as I said above, there are possibilities.
> 
> We can't forget that US always claims to maintain balance of military in certain regions merely to keep up her influence. D.C will play the same role here (not for the sake of influence but in-fact for many other reasons as discussed above) when IAF is shopping a lot especially Rafale are coming to the theater with some goodies and possible additions & extra platforms as well. US may not have much of alliance with Pakistan but then again, if India does not feel threatened by Pakistan & China; how could weapon dealers can capture Indian market/earn some good money. On other hand, if US is not selling anything capable, beside losing Indian interest of more weapons; there will be other suppliers that may work with PAF in addition to our own product so US can play both side and earn everything which is a fair game per US interests.
> 
> Cobras possibility does exist but there is no chatter about C130s at the moment. Seems like Cobras will make it earlier than Viper kits however, in the end it all depends if such deal/offer comes to reality & being done in real time.
> 
> I can be wrong & I welcome any correction but I say, I don't claim anything but observed.


Pak should try more vipers especially used Airframes also there are Jordanian F16s too. If this goes well Pak should not go Russian platform if we have extra money would be nice to have used and New F15 or EF F15 with AESA is formidable plane US are businessmen they will go if we have money or used mirage 2000 is not bad either but again it's costly affair let's see how this panns out
If congress is in good mood we should also go extra deals along F16s make a whole package like cobras and for Navy will pass this time IA let Indians cry



MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Uncle has renewed contract on which gangus were making lot of noise.Uncle knows that if we won't upgrade,then down the road Pakistanis would start doing that themselves and how much stoppage of spares can hurt them is not known(citing the fact we are ourselves manufacturers),this upgrade would balance everything in S.A in terms of Air Power.


Uncle does not care about Gangus theior trade deal falls apart along with no new military procurement from LM or Boeing India may go for P8s but Pak also eyeing on P8 as Admiral Abbasi said in US.

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## loanranger

This thread is back to its former glory. PDF is lovely .

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## Haris Ali2140

Coincidentslly @Khafee is back too.


loanranger said:


> This thread is back to its former glory. PDF is lovely .

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## mingle

@Khafee Akhee any more deals along F16 s???


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## Viper27

The Eagle said:


> If, it is the case then we are not much in worry area. Though, current affairs and rapid change in geopolitics can make it a bit of bumpy ride so either we choose foolishly or we rise & shine once for all. The point that I observe, has a value that IK said about trust deficit with US. He clearly mentioned our support in Afghan war of 80s and then Pressler sanctions and abandoning us. Then he went on with post 9/11 support for US despite strong reservations but then G.W. Bush Jr promised that it wouldn't be like previous (in-fact they accepted as how they abandoned us) but then again, he highlighted many issues & mistrust in view of our losses due to war on terrorism.
> 
> Whether such deal/offer comes to fruition or not; he made it pretty much clear that this time, US too has to work out more than before with concrete evidence & will to respect mutual interest. US can't serve only their national interest.
> 
> I was of the opinion that Afghan peace talks will strengthen our case but that we see, has already gone into cold storage that too with a tweet and that's it. Then I see, as why wouldn't Russia will interest to save their national interest and may well seek our help. Then we have China as well that knows as how much Pakistan done for these peace talks. On the other hand, even US suspended the peace talks, there exist the possibility of resumption and beside that, I don't think so that Pentagon will ever wish to loose Pakistan trust for any support in Afghanistan and they know for fact as we do have much more important role than anyone else in this regard. So the bargain chip for Vipers or Cobras may remain Afghanistan & Taliban either by resolution of conflict with peace talks or some other way or kind of arrangements where US has a graceful exit without even signing any contract. (I feel like I have reached a point where I need to stop so pardon me for leaving this point as open ended without any conclusion).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The figure is not confirm or you can say there is no official authenticity. I can guess that 36 was the requirement but it was mentioned here as 24 is the go for new Vipers + upgrade existing fleet of 76 to Viper & then a possible 20 used airframes being bought & upgraded to V level. Actually we are looking at some strong fleet of 120 in Viper configuration. Can you imagine US agreeing for all this in lieu of something less valued? Things are bit complex but as I said above, there are possibilities.
> 
> We can't forget that US always claims to maintain balance of military in certain regions merely to keep up her influence. D.C will play the same role here (not for the sake of influence but in-fact for many other reasons as discussed above) when IAF is shopping a lot especially Rafale are coming to the theater with some goodies and possible additions & extra platforms as well. US may not have much of alliance with Pakistan but then again, if India does not feel threatened by Pakistan & China; how could weapon dealers can capture Indian market/earn some good money. On other hand, if US is not selling anything capable, beside losing Indian interest of more weapons; there will be other suppliers that may work with PAF in addition to our own product so US can play both side and earn everything which is a fair game per US interests.
> 
> Cobras possibility does exist but there is no chatter about C130s at the moment. Seems like Cobras will make it earlier than Viper kits however, in the end it all depends if such deal/offer comes to reality & being done in real time.
> 
> I can be wrong & I welcome any correction but I say, I don't claim anything but observed.



Taiwan's order for 66 new Block 70s (along with other goodies) costs around $8 billion. I am guessing that even if Pakistan goes for 20-24 new jets it would take at least somewhere in the ballpark of $2 billion. So don't you think the rumours about an upgrade of the entire fleet are a little far fetched given that this would increase the total cost even more?


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## mingle

Viper27 said:


> Taiwan's order for 66 new Block 70s (along with other goodies) costs around $8 billion. I am guessing that even if Pakistan goes for 20-24 new jets it would take at least somewhere in the ballpark of $2 billion. So don't you think the rumours about an upgrade of the entire fleet are a little far fetched given that this would increase the total cost even more?


Taiwan got 144 old F16s they gonna get V kits around 5 billions pak has half of 144 so 2.5 billion for current fleet and if we go 36 New probably 4 billion. Pak should go for more used F16s from US and EU around 40 platforms and give them another V upgrades will give us 150-160 all upgraded blk72 vipers amazing punch

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## ali_raza

Khafee said:


> Dont the F16D have some serious EW capabilities...?


dfrm?


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## Usama Ahmed 86

What about the 120Ds? Possible to get 200 of those? Is it a part of the deal?

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## Basel

Signalian said:


> Wrong Question.
> 
> EW Falcon DA-20 will be giving cover to F-16's and JF-17's when a Rafale decides to makes an appearance, so what will protect Rafale when an Aim120C5 or SD-10 is homing in on it and it will be continuously spot jammed or sweep jammed or even base jammed or a combination of jamming is occurring ?



PAF now have to upgrade those Falcons EW birds as IAF have seen what they can do and now they are on shopping spree to counter them with latest tech and tactics.



Khafee said:


> Dont the F16D have some serious EW capabilities...?



Can they handle upcoming capabilities of IAF who have seen what PAF can do with those??

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## Signalian

Basel said:


> PAF now have to upgrade those Falcons EW birds as IAF have seen what they can do and now they are on shopping spree to counter them with latest tech and tactics.


do you understand EW ?

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## Basel

Signalian said:


> do you understand EW ?



Yes, electronic warfare.


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## Signalian

Basel said:


> Yes, electronic warfare.


Not just the term, the way its conducted, the components involved, jamming, information, radars etc ? The next step in PAF EW arena is JF-17 Block III; new radar, EW suite etc

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## Basel

Signalian said:


> Not just the term, the way its conducted, the components involved, jamming, information, radars etc ? The next step in PAF EW arena is JF-17 Block III; new radar, EW suite etc



Pakistan don't have money and access to tech which US, Israel, France etc are selling to India and training them after 27.02.2019 so anyone who thinks we have enough to handle what Rafale and other new and upgraded systems will add capabilities to IAF is fool.

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## Trailer23

Signalian said:


> Not just the term, the way its conducted, the components involved, jamming, information, radars etc ? The next step in PAF EW arena is JF-17 Block III; new radar, EW suite etc


Which of the two has a more superior EW capabilities between the two...
The *F-16* or the *F-18 (Super Hornet)/EA-18G (Growler)*.

The Growler has picked up/replaced the _Northrop Grumman EA-6B *Prowler*_ which was initially the backbone of the USN for decades.

I take it that the JF-17B will be utilized for EW, rather than Training.


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## Riz

Basel said:


> Pakistan don't have money and access to tech which US, Israel, France etc are selling to India and training them after 27.02.2019 so anyone who thinks we have enough to handle what Rafale and other new and upgraded systems will add capabilities to IAF is fool.


People like you claiming same before 27 feb.. Did not you???

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## Signalian

Trailer23 said:


> Which of the two has a more superior EW capabilities between the two...
> The *F-16* or the *F-18 (Super Hornet)/EA-18G (Growler)*.
> 
> The Growler has picked up/replaced the _Northrop Grumman EA-6B *Prowler*_ which was initially the backbone of the USN for decades.
> 
> I take it that the JF-17B will be utilized for EW, rather than Training.


EA-18G is specialized for EW.



Basel said:


> Pakistan don't have money and access to tech which US, Israel, France etc are selling to India and training them after 27.02.2019 so anyone who thinks we have enough to handle what Rafale and other new and upgraded systems will add capabilities to IAF is fool.


PAF has USA and Chinese tech

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## araz

Riz said:


> People like you claiming same before 27 feb.. Did not you???


I know we won the day on the 27th. But peoplle asking for dampening of our enthusiasm are right. Look we are relying on the Chinese and our own selves for turnkey technologies. However to compare our capabilities with experienced providers like Lockmart or Dassault is expecting too much . We may have comparative technologies with specs in the same ball park but are they comparable to the Rafale EW suit is something we need to be careful about.
Rest is fine and great gains to PAF and PAC.
A

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## Basel

Signalian said:


> EA-18G is specialized for EW.
> 
> 
> PAF has USA and Chinese tech



US have never sold Pakistan front line tech since long, they have offered India higher level tech compared to Pakistan, please Google about it.


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## Riz

Basel said:


> US have never sold Pakistan front line tech since long, they have offered India higher level tech compared to Pakistan, please Google about it.


Give them money they will sold you everything.. If u had money even france will sold u Rafales any day anytime


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## Basel

Riz said:


> People like you claiming same before 27 feb.. Did not you???



People like me have seen things first hand, we are not just keyboard warriors, we also know weakness and strength and also we don't underestimate our enemy. 27th Feb was just an skirmish not even full blown battle.


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## Haris Ali2140

araz said:


> I know we won the day on the 27th. But peoplle asking for dampening of our enthusiasm are right. Look we are relying on the Chinese and our own selves for turnkey technologies. However to compare our capabilities with experienced providers like Lockmart or Dassault is expecting too much . We may have comparative technologies with specs in the same ball park but are they comparable to the Rafale EW suit is something we need to be careful about.
> Rest is fine and great gains to PAF and PAC.
> A


I said a few days ago that if we don't get 50+ block-70/72 by end of 2020 we should move to J-10.


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## Basel

Riz said:


> Give them money they will sold you everything.. If u had money even france will sold u Rafales any day anytime



During Mush time Pakistan had money but no one was willing to sell us jets, this on record by Mush him self.

France will not jeopardize its relation with India, they may sell some systems but don't expect Rafael's from them now as they are in deep strategic relationship with India, only good western option is EFT with possible tech / engine for JFT block-4 if Pakistan had money.


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## Haris Ali2140

Basel said:


> During Mush time Pakistan had money but no one was willing to sell us jets, this on record by Mush him self.
> 
> France will not jeopardize its relation with India, they may sell some systems but don't expect Rafael's from them now as they are in deep strategic relationship with India, only good western option is EFT with possible tech / engine for JFT block-4 if Pakistan had money.



If there are no block-70/72 in sight by 2020 then PAF should swallow the hard pill and go for another platform. The best option will be J-10. India is quickly closing the tech gap.

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## Basel

Haris Ali2140 said:


> If there are no block-70/72 in sight by 2020 then PAF should swallow the hard pill and go for another platform. The best option will be J-10. India is quickly closing the tech gap.



J-10P is last option for Pakistan, LM want to make F-16 wing in India since 2020 which means good bye F-16s in long run for Pakistan.

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## Riz

Basel said:


> During Mush time Pakistan had money but no one was willing to sell us jets, this on record by Mush him self.


You will have to get at par with india economically then no one can stop u Brother.. Russia & France both will never lose big market of india just for 4 or 5 billion dollars of pakistan

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## Haris Ali2140

Basel said:


> J-10P is last option for Pakistan, LM want to make F-16 wing in India since 2020 which means good bye F-16s in long run for Pakistan.



Now when you come to think of it Mastan Khan was right. Right now we have only 22 block-52 out of 76 remaining are block-15s which we dont how they will stand in a full fledged war. If we would have gone with J-10 in Musharraf's era, we would now have had 76 J-10 armed with AESA,HMDs and BVRAAAM. Instead we are now here praying that US will release CSF and we might get more F-16s.

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## Dazzler

This speculative thread should be closed now.

@The Eagle @Oscar

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## Basel

Riz said:


> You will have to get at par with india economically then no one can stop u Brother.. Russia & France both will never lose big market of india just for 4 or 5 billion dollars of pakistan



There is something called strategic partnership and alignment and money is usually not core of it, why USSR and USA were rivals? Why China is seen as rival by US and its allies?? Economic growth has its benefits but not to extent which you are saying.



Haris Ali2140 said:


> Now when you come to think of it Mastan Khan was right. Right now we have only 22 block-52 out of 76 remaining are block-15s which we dont how they will stand in a full fledged war. If we would have gone with J-10 in Musharraf's era, we would now have had 76 J-10 armed with AESA,HMDs and BVRAAAM. Instead we are now here praying that US will release CSF and we might get more F-16s.



If you think you have knowledge of matter then first tell me which version of J-10 was FC-20 based on and which F-16 block it was comparable??

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## ziaulislam

Basel said:


> During Mush time Pakistan had money but no one was willing to sell us jets, this on record by Mush him self.
> 
> France will not jeopardize its relation with India, they may sell some systems but don't expect Rafael's from them now as they are in deep strategic relationship with India, only good western option is EFT with possible tech / engine for JFT block-4 if Pakistan had money.


i disagree....USA denied, so did the gripen later(controversy what happened, initially they said yes)..typhoon and rafales were deemed too expensive...
the strictest country in typhoon group is Germany who were ready to sell their subs...italy and UK have no issues in selling..

French might have dragged their feats for bigger pie of MRCA

even today f16 is availble for sale for hard cash money
Russia and china have vairety options 
and i am pretty sure typhoon is available as well

pretty sure even block 70 will be available if pakistan does some lobbying with senators from states where the supply line comes from

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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> i disagree....USA denied, so did the gripen later(controversy what happened, initially they said yes)..typhoon and rafales were deemed too expensive...
> the strictest country in typhoon group is Germany who were ready to sell their subs...italy and UK have no issues in selling..
> 
> French might have dragged their feats for bigger pie of MRCA
> 
> even today f16 is availble for sale for hard cash money
> Russia and china have vairety options
> and i am pretty sure typhoon is available as well



Currently best western bird with possible KSA financing is EFT (with JFT block-4 package) as our PM have very good relations in KSA and UK, and we are working well with Italy too.


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## SQ8

Until we receive further news in this regard. Its time to move on as the topic has digressed beyond its scope.

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## aliyusuf

Basel said:


> Currently best western bird with possible KSA financing is EFT


Are you aware of any development of Pakistan going for these birds?


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## Benign Persona

Oscar said:


> Until we receive further news in this regard. Its time to move on as the topic has digressed beyond its scope.


sir we already got further information in post #2936


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## NA71

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Now when you come to think of it Mastan Khan was right. Right now we have only 22 block-52 out of 76 remaining are block-15s which we dont how they will stand in a full fledged war. If we would have gone with J-10 in Musharraf's era, we would now have had 76 J-10 armed with AESA,HMDs and BVRAAAM. Instead we are now here praying that US will release CSF and we might get more F-16s.



This is crux of this thread.....we are moving in circle with high hopes for F16s....already wasted too much time....


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## Taimur Khurram

As predicted, this went nowhere.

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## Jammer

Good grief! Why is this thread still open?

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## Basel

aliyusuf said:


> Are you aware of any development of Pakistan going for these birds?



PAF was certainly interested in EFTs but all comes to money, with EFT PAF can get avionics and engine package for JFT block-4 which F-16s don't come with.

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## Viper27

Basel said:


> PAF was certainly interested in EFTs but all comes to money, with EFT PAF can get avionics and engine package for JFT block-4 which F-16s don't come with.



PAF made people believe it was interested. It was actually evaluating those jets to see what features could be replicated in the JF-17. Shahid Latif in a recent Youtube interview explained how PAF had been able to get it’s hands on the likes of Gripen and Eurofighter by making them believe we were going to purchase the jets when in fact we were testing them to give our guys at Kamra & Chengdu some idea about the kind of technology needed for the JF-17.

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## loanranger

Viper27 said:


> PAF made people believe it was interested. It was actually evaluating those jets to see what features could be replicated in the JF-17. Shahid Latif in a recent Youtube interview explained how PAF had been able to get it’s hands on the likes of Gripen and Eurofighter by making them believe we were going to purchase the jets when in fact we were testing them to give our guys at Kamra & Chengdu some idea about the kind of technology needed for the JF-17.


Guess what we won't be making them believe ever again.

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## Trailer23

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I said a few days ago that if we don't get 50+ block-70/72 by end of 2020 we should move to J-10.


Bro, its a Fighter Jet, not a Soda Factory!

There are already confirmed Customers who are awaiting those F-16's and most are under 20 in number per nation - some only 8. & they too will be receiving delivery upto 2022-23.

Most common response heard is "We don't have the funds". Lets say we did..., I'm certain Lockheed Martin would not of been able to drop 50+ at our doorstep like DHL.


Basel said:


> J-10P is last option for Pakistan, LM want to make F-16 wing in India since 2020 which means good bye F-16s in long run for Pakistan.


They're just gonna build the Wings. Not assemble the entire jet.

Japan builds wings for the B787 (Dreamliner). But they are shipped across the Pacific to Seattle, WA. The Dreamliner still carries the label 'Made in USA' & even if Japan doesn't like it, its still sold to China.

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## The Eagle

Viper27 said:


> Shahid Latif



In-fact he did a lot for JF-17 program but the way such kind of bravado is being made public on TV/Interviews, somebody should have taken him to the task for jeopardizing too much for the future. The next time, most of the parties wouldn't even allow for a nearby walk. It wasn't hard to say in different words but then again, few of the heads gets too much over their senses, to their credit.

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## StormBreaker

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to upgrade its F-16 program with technical assistance and possibly 36 advanced fighter jets from the United States.

Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. has won a fixed-price $9.1 million contract for technical security team support services for Pakistan’s F-16 program, according to the United States Department of Defense. On the official website, it wrote:

“Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program.”


According to the details, the deadline for the project is set as 18 June 2020 and all the work will be done in Pakistan.

“This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of the award”, states the Defense Department’s contracts list for 16 December 2019.

Billions have already been spent on Pakistan’s top of the line fighters ever since the induction of Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in PAF in 1982.

Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.

The package for new F-16s includes:


7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP engines
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals
36 GPS and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites: ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM.
1 Unit Level Trainer
In addition, associated support equipment will also be a part of the deal. A $650 million deal for advanced weaponry for new F-16s will also take place and it will include: 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 12 AMRAAM training missile, 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles, 240 LAU-129/A Launchers, 500 GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits, 600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 and GBU-24s, 800 MK-82 500 pound and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs and 700 BLU-109 2,000-pound bunker-buster.

Pakistan has also expressed its desire to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment for PAF’s F-16A/B fighter aircraft for $1.3 billion whereas another $151 million will be spent on F-16 A/B Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades.


SOURCE : https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/

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## StormBreaker

@aliyusuf @MastanKhan @Windjammer @HRK @Signalian @The Eagle @Khafee @Hodor @kursed @Starlord @Mangus Ortus Novem @Deino @Hakikat ve Hikmet

I have some doubts here. Isn’t 50/52 production closed and succeeded by 70/72 ?

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## Myth_buster_1

Move along nothing to see here.

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

StormBreaker said:


> @aliyusuf @MastanKhan @Windjammer @HRK @Signalian @The Eagle @Khafee @Hodor @kursed @Starlord @Mangus Ortus Novem @Deino @Hakikat ve Hikmet
> 
> I have some doubts here. Isn’t 50/52 production closed and succeeded by 70/72 ?




Looks like KhafeeLeaks coming true!

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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Looks like KhafeeLeaks coming true!


If Leak 1 comes true then Leak2

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## Maarkhoor

StormBreaker said:


> View attachment 594472
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to upgrade its F-16 program with technical assistance and possibly 36 advanced fighter jets from the United States.
> 
> Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. has won a fixed-price $9.1 million contract for technical security team support services for Pakistan’s F-16 program, according to the United States Department of Defense. On the official website, it wrote:
> 
> “Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program.”
> 
> 
> According to the details, the deadline for the project is set as 18 June 2020 and all the work will be done in Pakistan.
> 
> “This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of the award”, states the Defense Department’s contracts list for 16 December 2019.
> 
> Billions have already been spent on Pakistan’s top of the line fighters ever since the induction of Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in PAF in 1982.
> 
> Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.
> 
> The package for new F-16s includes:
> 
> 
> 7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP engines
> 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
> 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
> 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
> 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks
> 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals
> 36 GPS and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
> 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
> 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites: ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM.
> 1 Unit Level Trainer
> In addition, associated support equipment will also be a part of the deal. A $650 million deal for advanced weaponry for new F-16s will also take place and it will include: 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 12 AMRAAM training missile, 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles, 240 LAU-129/A Launchers, 500 GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits, 600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 and GBU-24s, 800 MK-82 500 pound and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs and 700 BLU-109 2,000-pound bunker-buster.
> 
> Pakistan has also expressed its desire to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment for PAF’s F-16A/B fighter aircraft for $1.3 billion whereas another $151 million will be spent on F-16 A/B Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades.
> 
> 
> SOURCE : https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/
> 
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/


If that true.....India ki tu lag gyi.....


I am 90% sure it is a bl@@dy fake news.....


----------



## Mangus Ortus Novem

StormBreaker said:


> If Leak 1 comes true then Leak2




Don't worry... *KhafeeLeaks2 *shall come out in the open soon! 

*Never doubted what my YoungerBrother Khafee said.*

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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Don't worry... *KhafeeLeaks2 *shall come out in the open soon!
> 
> *Never doubted what my YoungerBrother Khafee said.*


HEART ATTACK FOR INDIA.

Pak Mil is not leaving any stones unturned in empowering their needs. Be it Navy, Airforce, Air defence.

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## Mentee

Crap! More green cards for Pakistanis when they retire
Is it sanctions prone?

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## StormBreaker

Mentee said:


> Crap! More green cards for Pakistanis when they retire
> Is it sanctions prone?


Does it shake indians ?
Yes
Did it give PAF scores in past decades ?
Yes
Have our pilots mastered using the machine?
Yes

So sanctions don’t matter!!!


----------



## Riz

Please mod unban @Khafee..


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## StormBreaker

Riz said:


> Please mod unban @Khafee..


He is not banned. He won’t come back tho...


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## Pakistani Fighter

StormBreaker said:


> A $650 million deal for advanced weaponry for new F-16s will also take place and it will include: 500 AIM-120C5


Dude i think C5s production is closed long ago. Ds are on the market. @Hodor @Windjammer @airomerix @Dazzler @HRK



Riz said:


> Please mod unban @Khafee..


Ban is finish


----------



## Mentee

StormBreaker said:


> Does it shake indians ?
> Yes
> Did it give PAF scores in past decades ?
> Yes
> Have our pilots mastered using the machine?
> Yes
> 
> So sanctions don’t matter!!!



Yeh Quran hadees m nahi likha k f16 k ilava koi jahaz nae lyna chaehay

Don't we have no idea how we survived the 90,s?

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Yup. It just confirms Pakistan will not be adding a new fighter platform to it's fleet in the 2020s and project is the only solution for Pakistan's own, long-term medium-weight fighter aircraft needs.

This also confirms that the US wants to maintain military balance in South Asia.

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## Windjammer

*''Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.''*

_Old news reported with added mirch masala.....Pakistan had already received 18 of the above and had the option for 18 more._

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## Haris Ali2140

Mentee said:


> Yeh Quran hadees m nahi likha k f16 k ilava koi jahaz nae lyna chaehay
> 
> Don't we have no idea how we survived the 90,s?


Baqi Sab $$$$ mangtain gain.


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## StormBreaker

Mentee said:


> Yeh Quran hadees m nahi likha k f16 k ilava koi jahaz nae lyna chaehay
> 
> Don't we have no idea how we survived the 90,s?


Keep spares over stuffed ...
Plus, don’t expect US to repeat similar MISTAKE again anytime sooner


----------



## Tipu7

StormBreaker said:


> View attachment 594472
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to upgrade its F-16 program with technical assistance and possibly 36 advanced fighter jets from the United States.
> 
> Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. has won a fixed-price $9.1 million contract for technical security team support services for Pakistan’s F-16 program, according to the United States Department of Defense. On the official website, it wrote:
> 
> “Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program.”
> 
> 
> According to the details, the deadline for the project is set as 18 June 2020 and all the work will be done in Pakistan.
> 
> “This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of the award”, states the Defense Department’s contracts list for 16 December 2019.
> 
> Billions have already been spent on Pakistan’s top of the line fighters ever since the induction of Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in PAF in 1982.
> 
> Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.
> 
> The package for new F-16s includes:
> 
> 
> 7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP engines
> 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
> 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
> 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
> 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks
> 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals
> 36 GPS and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
> 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
> 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites: ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM.
> 1 Unit Level Trainer
> In addition, associated support equipment will also be a part of the deal. A $650 million deal for advanced weaponry for new F-16s will also take place and it will include: 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 12 AMRAAM training missile, 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles, 240 LAU-129/A Launchers, 500 GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits, 600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 and GBU-24s, 800 MK-82 500 pound and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs and 700 BLU-109 2,000-pound bunker-buster.
> 
> Pakistan has also expressed its desire to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment for PAF’s F-16A/B fighter aircraft for $1.3 billion whereas another $151 million will be spent on F-16 A/B Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades.
> 
> 
> SOURCE : https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/
> 
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/


Still nothing finalized. Bit early to celebrate anything. 
PAF interest in Blk72 (not 70) and US willingness to sell them is known from quite a time. Same goes for modification of existing F16 fleet. 

O side note, numbers mentioned are incorrect, so is the upgrades under discussion. Nothing final yet.

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## TheTallGuy

We better be ready for US Sanctions...these F16s we have will be sitting on ground soon due to our increasing independence.

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## SABRE

If I remember correctly, the US had agreed to providing spares and other items related to F-16s around the time of IK-Trump meeting. Don't know if this is in addition to that or whether the same agreement has now been awarded to a US firm.

As for 36 new F-16s lets wait for more reliable sources. Few years back we hardly had enough cash for 8 new F-16s.

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## StormBreaker

Tipu7 said:


> Still nothing finalized. Bit early to celebrate anything.
> PAF interest in Blk72 (not 70) and US willingness to sell them is known from quite a time. Same goes for modification of existing F16 fleet.
> 
> O side note, numbers mentioned are incorrect, so is the upgrades under discussion. Nothing final yet.


Any timeline to expect an official word ?
Deal will take time to get finalized, then more time to deliver, 2022—-

How likely is the deal to take place given india’s nonserious attitude towards F-21 ?



TheTallGuy said:


> We better be ready for US Sanctions...these F16s we have will be sitting on ground soon due to our increasing independence.


Killswitches !!!
I hope, TAI supplies us the Upgrade materials and expertise


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

StormBreaker said:


> Any timeline to expect an official word ?
> Deal will take time to get finalized, then more time to deliver, 2022—-
> 
> How likely is the deal to take place given india’s nonserious attitude towards F-21 ?
> 
> 
> Killswitches !!!
> I hope, TAI supplies us the Upgrade materials and expertise




US needs to have Rafale downed... and *keep the supremecy of Yank Hardware*... and the best chance is at the hands of PAF.

Killing many birds with single stone! @MastanKhan

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## Mentee

StormBreaker said:


> Keep spares over stuffed ...
> Plus, don’t expect US to repeat similar MISTAKE again anytime sooner



Times have changed my friend no amount of spares gonna keep our 16 running if the pentagon decides to pull the plug off


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## Pakistan Space Agency

Tipu7 said:


> Still nothing finalized. Bit early to celebrate anything.
> PAF interest in Blk72 (not 70) and US willingness to sell them is known from quite a time. Same goes for modification of existing F16 fleet.
> 
> O side note, numbers mentioned are incorrect, so is the upgrades under discussion. Nothing final yet.



Pakistan will acquire any F-16 from anywhere, even if it's A/B. It's as simple as that.


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## denel

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Move along nothing to see here.


I concur, another cobbled up bs. Looks like the editor took and copy pasted 2 seperate articles; amazing quality of journalism.

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## Mentee

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Baqi Sab $$$$ mangtain gain.



Yeh Dunya ki nucliai taqat or top 30 economy m sy hai ap ko sharma aani chaehay aysi bat krty


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## Haris Ali2140

Mentee said:


> Yeh Dunya ki nucliai taqat or top 30 economy m sy hai ap ko sharma aani chaehay aysi bat krty


Nucleur power you NK bhi hai.


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## Mentee

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Nucleur power you NK bhi hai.



You guys are in the self hating swamp upto your necks. Do you have any idea about the level of cringey feel coming out your statement?


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## StormBreaker

denel said:


> I concur, another cobbled up bs. Looks like the editor took and copy pasted 2 seperate articles; amazing quality of journalism.


Yes, but partly i agree.

OTOH, this website, has a history of 95+% accuracy in news, they bring many news to light for the first time that are just posted as press releases on relevant sites.

So i won’t ignore the news, PLUS, similar thing has been said by Sir.Khafee earlier who we all know what he is.

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## Haris Ali2140

Mentee said:


> You guys are in the self hating swamp upto your necks. Do you have any idea about the level of cringey feel coming out your statement?


What??? You said that we should ho for another platform instead of F-16 and I said that we can't afford it.
I don't know what are you talking about.


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## The Eagle

As the subject has been closed due to lack of verification and also, the source in Op is not adding anything new except that of an OSINT type news article; it will be appreciated to avoid creating such threads. Thread is closed for want of credible source/official release.

Only credible release is of newly signed security contract and nothing more.

Regards,

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## Champion_Usmani

*BREAKING: Pakistan Air Force likely to purchase 36 new advanced F - 16 Fighter Jets from US, upgrade the existing fleet*

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to upgrade its F-16 program with technical assistance and possibly 36 advanced fighter jets from the United States.

*Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. has won a fixed-price $9.1 million contract for technical security team support services for Pakistan’s F-16 program, according to the United States Department of Defense. On the official website, it wrote:*

*Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program.*

*According to the details, the deadline for the project is set as 18 June 2020 and all the work will be done in Pakistan. ------------------------------*

*“This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of the award”, states the Defense Department’s contracts list for 16 December 2019.*

Billions have already been spent on Pakistan’s top of the line fighters ever since the induction of Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in PAF in 1982.

Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.

*The package for new F-16s includes:*

*- 7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP engines - 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets - 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) - 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II - 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks - 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals - 36 GPS and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems - 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems - 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites: ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM. - 1 Unit Level Trainer*

*In addition, associated support equipment will also be a part of the deal. A $650 million deal for advanced weaponry for new F-16s will also take place and it will include: 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 12 AMRAAM training missile, 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles, 240 LAU-129/A Launchers, 500 GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits, 600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 and GBU-24s, 800 MK-82 500 pound and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs and 700 BLU-109 2,000-pound bunker-buster.*

*Pakistan has also expressed its desire to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment for PAF’s F-16A/B fighter aircraft for $1.3 billion whereas another $151 million will be spent on F-16 A/B Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades.*

------------------------------

*Via Defense Industry Daily link*

https://timesofislamabad.com/18-Dec...ghter-jets-from-us-upgrade-the-existing-fleet

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## MM_Haider

what did I just read ... is it true... ? if true then it is an AWESOME news from 2019! Rafale to gyooo 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313918219182080

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313922975510528

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313934904184835

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313940272824323

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313940272824323

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207314703292280833
https://twitter.com/DevelopmentPk/status/1207314706085621763?s=20

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## airomerix

O bhai bas kerjao.

These details are from 2006.

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## k s ahmed

Second hand ya new ?


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## Major Sam

Its an old upgrade, all the old f16 were already upgraded. I think this guy is mixing up things.

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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> O bhai bas kerjao.
> 
> These details are from 2006.


Is this true that Pak is looking for a 4th gen plane? Preferably J10C and they will be based in Bohlari?


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## Ultima Thule

MM_Haider said:


> what did I just read ... is it true... ? if true then it is an AWESOME news from 2019! Rafale to gyooo
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313918219182080
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313922975510528
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313934904184835
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313940272824323
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207313940272824323
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1207314703292280833
> https://twitter.com/DevelopmentPk/status/1207314706085621763?s=20


you can post this news on F-16 discussion thread, why you opened new thread, @waz @The Eagle please delete or merge this thread with F-16 discussion thread, thanks


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## airomerix

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is this true that Pak is looking for a 4th gen plane? Preferably J10C and they will be based in Bohlari?



We need funds for 5th generation and Block 3. We do not have cash to spend on 4th generation. Besides F-16s and JF-17s are catering to our 4th generation needs. Block 3 will somehow bridge the gap between 4th and 4.5 generation.

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## Windjammer

Let's first try to get the AH-1Z Vipers before dreaming for anything else.

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Is this true that Pak is looking for a 4th gen plane? Preferably J10C and they will be based in Bohlari?


We already have 4th gen jets in forms of F-16/JF-17, and where do you get this news that we are going to buy J-10C and will be based on Bohlari???


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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> We need funds for 5th generation and Block 3. We do not have cash to spend on 4th generation. Besides F-16s and JF-17s are catering to our 4th generation needs. Block 3 will somehow bridge the gap between 4th and 4.5 generation.


Ok


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## Ali Tariq

Pata nahi PDF fan boys ko kya ho gya hai, har roz aise 2, 3 threads mods delete karte hain. Phir koi na koi post kar deta hai, at least use the search option before creating a new thread on tweets.
@The Eagle

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## Pakistani Fighter

seven0seven said:


> We already have 4th gen jets in forms of F-16/JF-17, and where do you get this news that we are going to buy J-10C and will be based on Bohlari???


Ok I got it



Windjammer said:


> Let's first try to get the AH-1Z Vipers before dreaming for anything else.


Are they better than T 129s?


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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Ok I got it


 is their any news that we are going to buy J-10C and will based on Bohlari, please clarify


Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Are they better than T 129s?


Yes, they are heavy just like Apache, and T-129 are light to medium


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## Windjammer

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Are they better than T 129s?



Regardless, the fact is Pakistan had ordered them and they are held back after being manufactured


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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> Let's first try to get the AH-1Z Vipers before dreaming for anything else.


what is current status of these helos?


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## Windjammer

nomi007 said:


> what is current status of these helos?


I think in storage.


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## MM_Haider

airomerix said:


> O bhai bas kerjao.
> 
> These details are from 2006.


This tweet is dated 18 Dec 2019... indicating buying 36 new F16...


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## ziaulislam



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## Ultima Thule

MM_Haider said:


> This tweet is dated 18 Dec 2019... indicating buying 36 new F16...


Not confirm either From US department of defense or PAF/PAK govt, and why do you started new thread just based on some tweets, you can easily post these tweets on F-16 discussion thread, this news already posted by various members on F-16 discussion thread


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## MM_Haider

seven0seven said:


> Not confirm either From US department of defense or PAF/PAK govt, and why do you started new thread just based on some tweets, you can easily post these tweets on F-16 discussion thread, this news already posted by various members on F-16 discussion thread


To me it is a big news worth having a separate thread and secondly it is my prerogative to decide whether I open new thread or post in existing one. If mods thing otherwise they can always take it down or merge. 
thanks for your useless advise.


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## MIRauf

Make MBS pick up the tab, get as many as US is willing to offer and $ covered by the KSA. Pak had to bend over due to past rulers plundering, Ik should try to get max out of the situation.

If you play the game right, you can manke them dependent on you, thus less chance of them pushing you around.

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## Ultima Thule

MM_Haider said:


> To me it is a big news worth having a separate thread and secondly it is my prerogative to decide whether I open new thread or post in existing one. If mods thing otherwise they can always take it down or merge.
> thanks for your useless advise.


Useless advice or not but this is just rumors not any confirmations officially, and this news already posted in F-16 discussion thread (old rumors), Useless thread

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## MM_Haider

seven0seven said:


> Useless advice or not but this is just rumors not any confirmations officially, and this news already posted in F-16 discussion thread (old rumors), Useless thread


then go to some useful thread instead of wasting your useless time here


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## Ultima Thule

MM_Haider said:


> then go to some useful thread instead of wasting your useless time here


@waz @The Eagle this thread should be deleted please delete this thread thanks


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## MM_Haider

seven0seven said:


> @waz @The Eagle this thread should be deleted please delete this thread thanks


what a cry baby


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## Kompromat

Not a proper source.


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## Ultima Thule

MM_Haider said:


> what a cry baby


i am not a cry baby its just rumors by some fanboys


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## MM_Haider

seven0seven said:


> i am not a cry baby its just rumors by some fanboys


ok Mr. rumor police


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## waz

Yep from 2006.


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