# Who Won the Air War in 1971?



## Vinod2070

> *One of the last enduring debates on the 1971 War is the outcome of the air war. Both sides continue to claim that it won the air war. This debate continues because victory in the air is more difficult to quantify than victory on land or sea. In the land and sea wars, India emerged as the clear victor both in terms of objectives attained and losses/gains versus the enemy. In the air war, even estimates of losses on both sides are widely divergent. Immediately after the war, the official Indian Government figures given out were 86 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft destroyed as against 42 Indian Air Force (IAF) lost. The Pakistanis later claimed that they had actually won the air war by destroying over a 100 Indian aircraft while losing only 36 of their own. The truth, as usual, is somewhere in between.*
> 
> Unlike in 1965, the Indian Air Force in 1971 handled claims of aerial victories by its pilots with great maturity. No "kills" were awarded until all claims could be verified, preferably by photo reconnaissance missions. Almost immediately after the War was over, the Air Chief asked the Halwara station commander, Air Marshal C.V.Gole, to visit every IAF station in the West to ascertain the performance of various squadrons. "Later, we had access to other information as well and we worked out a pretty accurate picture of losses on both sides", he explains. But discrepancies could well remain. For instance, Gole recalls that one SAM battery had fired missiles at a couple of attacking Pakistani B-57 bombers. One was hit and streaming smoke. A few hours later, some villagers called to say that they had found the debris of the Pakistani aircraft. On investigation it was found that what remained was not the debris of an aircraft but that of a missile. The hit was not taken into account. It was only much after the war that some Pakistani report spoke about a B-57 pilot who had become "Shaheed" after he tried to bail out his burning aircraft but could not make it.
> 
> Pakistani claims of their own losses are less than reliable. The main cause of this confusion has to do with various "Official" histories of the PAF quoting different figures. It has been estimated by some observers, based on signal intercepts from the PAF, that the PAF lost at least seventy-two aircraft (including at least fifty-five combat types). Pakistan itself admits to the loss of twenty-nine combat aircraft on the ground. Only 16 were claimed to have been shot down over India. Add to this the 13 Sabres destroyed by the PAF itself at Dhaka. Even then the figure comes to 58. However, a lot of this is inaccurate.
> 
> After almost a year's of research, we at SAPRA INDIA believe that the losses of combat aircraft on both sides were as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> The PAF lost many more aircraft on the ground not only because the Indians launched many more counter air operations than the Pakistanis but also because the PAF itself destroyed 13 of its Sabres in Dhaka within a few days of the war. PAF's No. 14 squadron with about 18 aircraft felt it had been abandoned by its higher command and left to face the onslaught of ten full Indian squadrons. After a couple of gallant actions by Pakistani pilots, the PAF commanders in East Pakistan appear to have decided that the game was not worth the effort. The last aerial engagement in East Pakistan took place on 4 December.
> 
> *Even if the Pakistani claim that the Indians lost more aircraft is accepted, does it suggest that the Pakistanis won the air war? The answer is a clear no. Because war, in the ultimate analysis, is not a numbers game. Winning a war has to do with achieving clear objectives. For the IAF, the aim was twofold: first, to prevent the PAF from messing with the Indian Army's advances, logistics and launching points; and second, to seriously impair Pakistan's capacity to wage war. The PAF's job was to do the opposite. The pre-emptive air strikes on 3rd December were aimed at knocking out a good part of the IAF while it was on the ground. This failed for the simple reason that the Indians had learnt their lessons of the 1965 war and had constructed fortified pens and bunkers to store their aircraft. More important, young IAF fliers proved they had the grit to go out and fight, even if it meant losing one's life.
> 
> By the end of the first week of the war, PAF fighters in the West appeared to have lost their will to fight. By this time, the IAF was repeatedly hitting secondary targets including railway yards, cantonments, bridges and other installations as well as providing close air support to the Army wherever it was required. The most dangerous were the close air support missions which involved flying low and exposing aircraft to intense ground fire. The IAF lost the most aircraft on these missions as is proved by the high losses suffered by IAF Sukhoi-7 and Hunter squadrons. But their pilots flew sortie after sortie keeping up with the Army and disrupting enemy troop and tank concentrations.
> 
> Once it was known that the Indian Army was knocking at the gates of Dhaka, the PAF in the West virtually gave up flying. During the last few days of the war, the IAF brass ordered attacks on PAF airfields with the sole purpose of drawing out their aircraft. But that rarely succeeded as the PAF aircraft for the most part remained secured inside their pens, refusing to come out and fight. The strongest indictment of the Pakistani Air Force was made not by an Indian but by the Pakistani leader, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who took over from General Yahya Yahya Khan after the 1971 defeat. On taking over, he made a speech in which he castigated the PAF chief Air Marshal Rahim Khan and several other officers by name.
> 
> A better analysis of effectiveness of the two air forces is provided by the losses per sortie figure. The IAF flew at least double the number of combat sorties per day than the PAF, thereby exposing itself to ground fire and enemy interdiction. Despite this, the IAF's attrition rate of 0.86 per 100 sorties during the 1971 War compares favourably with the Israeli rate of 1.1 in the Yom Kippur War. The PAF's overall attrition rate works out to 2.47 (including transporters and recce aircraft lost on the ground). If aircraft destroyed on the ground are not taken into account, the rate works out to 1.12, which is still very high given that PAF aircraft never really stood back to fight.
> 
> The question of loss is important but, in the ultimate analysis, secondary. Achieving air superiority cost the IAF dearly in 1971 but in the end it managed to achieve complete dominance over the skies in both East and West Pakistan.*
> 
> By Indranil Banerjie, Rupak Chattopadhyay and Air Marshal (Retired) C.V.Gole
> 
> This article is the result of over 8 months of often frustrating research. Both the Indian and Pakistani air forces have tended to fudge figures and accounts. It took time and much effort to sift through the claims, counter-claims and various accounts of the 1971 air war to arrive at some basic conclusions.



1971 India-Pakistan War: The Air War - Case West

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## Vinod2070

I am opening this thread to specifically discuss the 1971 air war. Too many Pakistanis believe that Pakistan won the air war. Including honorable Mr. Muradk.



Muradk said:


> Yar Vinod I don't expect such comments from you. We all know who controlled the skies and there is nothing to be ashamed about it. Yes I admit we lost east Pakistan but we did kick IAF butt and you being an educated person cannot deny that.



Let us understand the reasons for that. What exactly is the basis of that claim?

Why do people want to separate the air war from the overall disaster from Pakistani POV. Was the PAF fighting it's own separate war independent of the overall war effort? How could a major part of the overall forces win a war and the nation still lose the war they way it did in 1971!

I personally feel that this is to keep alive the myth of the PAF superiority that has been kept alive since 1965. PAF is good, very good and very professional.

IAF is also equally good or better and has served the nation when needed.

The comments of Bhutto do paint a picture different to what most Pakistani members feel here.


> *
> The strongest indictment of the Pakistani Air Force was made not by an Indian but by the Pakistani leader, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who took over from General Yahya Yahya Khan after the 1971 defeat. On taking over, he made a speech in which he castigated the PAF chief Air Marshal Rahim Khan and several other officers by name.*


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## Imran Khan

yaar vinod you post this losess wrong please visit bharat rakshak for same page there is difrent losess of air wars.

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## Vinod2070

Let's discuss the issue more holistically than just making it a numbers game.


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## Imran Khan

india win 1971 and i think bangali anti united pakistan like mujeeb win.


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## Patriot

Well, Here's General Chuck Comment's about PAF Air Supremacy in West Pakistan
The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a
three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets
and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the
figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and
counted the wrecks below." "They were really good, aggressive
dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was
damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying. "
(General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the
Autobiography).


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## Goodperson

Vinod, their is no doubt about who lost the war. No need to discuss it over and over again.


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## Vinod2070

Saad, this is about 1965 which was the cause of all the myths that were created. For now let's keep to 1971.


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## Vinod2070

Goodperson said:


> Vinod, their is no doubt about who lost the war. No need to discuss it over and over again.



I know that India won it in land, sea and air. There are still many Pakistanis who want to somehow convince themselves that they won the air war.

Let's see what have they got for us.


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## Patriot

Vinod2070 said:


> Saad, this is about 1965 which was the cause of all the myths that were created. For now let's keep to 1971.


It is ABOUT 1971.General came here in 1971 not in 1965.We did win in 1965 too.
-
Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force
An Excerpt from Yeager,
the Autobiography of General (Retd.) Chuck E. Yeager (USAF)

When we arrived in Pakistan in 1971, the political situation between the
Pakistanis and Indians was really tense over Bangladesh, or East Pakistan,
as it was known in those days, and Russia was backing India with
tremendous amounts of new airplanes and tanks. The U.S. and China were
backing the Pakistanis. My job was military advisor to the Pakistani air
force, headed by Air Marshal Rahim Khan, who had been trained in Britain
by the Royal Air Force, and was the first Pakistani pilot to exceed the
speed of sound. He took me around to their different fighter groups and I
met their pilots, who knew me and were really pleased that I was there.
They had about five hundred airplanes, more than half of them Sabres and
104 Starfighters, a few B-57 bombers, and about a hundred Chinese MiG-19s.
They were really good, aggressive dogfighters and proficient in gunnery
and air combat tactics. I was damned impressed. Those guys just lived and
breathed flying.
One of my first jobs there was to help them put U.S. Sidewinders on their
Chinese MiGs, which were 1.6 Mach twin-engine airplanes that carried three
thirty-millimeter canons. Our government furnished them with the rails for
Sidewinders. They bought the missiles and all the checkout equipment that
went with them, and it was one helluva interesting experience watching
their electricians wiring up American missiles on a Chinese MiG. I worked
with their squadrons and helped them develop combat tactics. The Chinese
MiG was one hundred percent Chinese-built and was made for only one
hundred hours of flying before it had to be scrapped - a disposable
fighter good for one hundred strikes. In fairness, it was an older
airplane in their inventory, and I guess they were just getting rid of
them. They delivered spare parts, but it was a tough airplane to work on;
the Pakistanis kept it flying for about 130 hours.
War broke out only a couple of months after we had arrived, in late
November 1971, when India attacked East Pakistan. The battle lasted only
three days before East Pakistan fell. India's intention was to annex East
Pakistan and claim it for themselves. But the Pakistanis counter-attacked.
Air Marshal Rahim Khan laid a strike on the four closest Indian air fields
in the western part of India, and wiped out a lot of equipment. At that
point, Indira Gandhi began moving her forces toward West Pakistan.
China moved in a lot of equipment, while Russia backed the Indians all the
way. So, it really became a kind of surrogate war - the Pakistanis, with
U.S. training and equipment, versus the Indians, mostly Russian-trained,
flying Soviet airplanes.
The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians'] ***** in the sky.
The air war lasted two weeks and the
Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made
Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain
about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and
counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented
them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket
pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7
fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. The
Pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended,
it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts
back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division.
I didn't get involved in the actual combat because that would've been too
touchy, but I did fly around and pick up shot-down Indian pilots and take
them back to prisoner-of-war camps for questioning. I interviewed them
about the equipment they had been flying and the tactics their Soviet
advisers taught them to use. I wore a uniform or flying suit all the time,
and it was amusing when those Indians saw my name tag and asked, "Are you
the Yeager who broke the sound barrier?" They couldn't believe I was in
Pakistan or understand what I was doing there. I told them, "I'm the
American Defense Rep here. That's what I'm doing."
India flew numerous raids against the Pakistani air fields with brand new
SU-7 bombers being escorted in with MiG 21s. On one of those raids, they
clobbered my small Beech Queen Air that had U.S. Army markings and a big
American flag painted on the tail. I had it parked at the Islamabad
airport, and I remember sitting on my front porch on the second day of the
war, thinking that maybe I ought to move that airplane down to the Iranian
border, out of range of the Indian bombers, when the damned air-raid siren
went off, and a couple of Indian jets came streaking in overhead. A moment
later, I saw a column of black smoke rising from the air field. My Beech
Queen was totaled. It was the Indian way of giving Uncle Sam the finger.
I stayed on in Pakistan for almost a year after the war ended, and it was
one of the most enjoyable times of my life. From 1972 until we came home
in March 1973, I spent most of my time flying in an F-86 Sabre with the
Pakistani fighter outfits. I dearly loved the Sabre, almost as much as I
enjoyed the P-51 Mustang from World War II days. It was a terrific
airplane to fly and I took one to see K-2, the great mountain of Pakistan
and the second highest mountain in the world, about an hour's flight away
[from Islamabad] at over 28,000 feet.
It's a fabulous peak, as awesome and beautiful as any on earth, located in
the middle of a high range that runs the length of the Chinese-Pakistani
border. We actually crossed over into China to get there, and I've got
some pictures of me in my cockpit right smack up against the summit. I
made two or three trips up to K-2 - real highlights. I also did some
bighorn sheep hunting in the Himalayan foothills. Susie owned a little
Arabian mare. She took her horse when I went hunting and actually learned
some of the Urdu language of the mountain people.

Copyright © 1985 by Yeager Inc.


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## Imran Khan

*TYPE EAST WEST TOTAL
MiG-21 2 6 (2) 8
Sukhoi -7 1 18(1) 19
Hunter 12 (3) 11(2) 23
Canberra 1 4 (1) 5
Gnat - 3 (2) 3
Mystere IVa - 5 (2) 5
HF-24 - 4 4
Vampire - 1 1
Alize (Navy) - 1 1
Dakota 1 (1) - 1
AOP (Army) - 1 1
Helicopters 2 (2) 2 (1) 4
TOTAL 19 (6) 56 (11) 75 (17)*


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## Imran Khan

WESTERN SECTOR
Date Aircraft 

Sqn
Name of the Aircrew S.No Location Remarks Fate

04-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

101
Flt Lt J Rishi B 899 AdampurAFB Tyreburst on TO. Crashed killed

04-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

222
Flt Lt Harvinder Singh B 849 Risalawala SD F-6 (Flt Lt Latif) killed

04-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

101
Flt Lt Gurdip Singh . - AAA fire Counter Air Mission Eject

04-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

222
Flt Lt P N Saksena . - AAA Dam Ejected Tac Supp Eject

04-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

108
Flt Lt D R Natu B 854 Halwara AAA Dam Pt Ejected Eject

04-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

32
Flt Lt M S Grewal . Shorkot AFB SD AAA 1400 Hrs POW

04-Dec-71
Hunter 

-
- - - AAA Fire CrL at BAse ?

04-Dec-71
Hunter 

27
Fg Off V Chati A 479 Mianwali SD F-6 (Fg Off Qazi Javed) POW

04-Dec-71
Hunter 

20
Flt Lt K P Muralidharan A 462 N Peshawar SD F-86 (F/O S B Mirza) killed

04-Dec-71
Hunter 

27
Fg Off S Tyagi A 490 Murid AFB SD F-86 (F/Lt Mujahid ) killed

04-Dec-71
HF-24 

220
Flt Lt P V Apte D1193 Nayachor SD AAA at Dharnaro RS killed

04-Dec-71
HF-24 

220
Flt Lt J L Bhargava . Nayachor SD AAA POW

04-Dec-71
Canberra 

JBCU
Flt Lt L M Sasoon (Pt)
Flt Lt R M Advani (Nav) IF916 Sargodha SD MirageIII (F/O Naeem Ata) killed

05-Dec-71
Canberra 

5
Flt Lt S K Goswami (Pt)
Flt Lt S C Mahajan (Nav) IF960 /
IF899 . SD AAA Night of 4/5 Dec. Cr near Khushab killed

05-Dec-71
Alloutte 

-
- - SrinagarAFS SD F-86? Pts Injured Safe

05-Dec-71
Mystere 

3
Flt Lt A V Pethia IA 954 Bhawalnagar SD AAA 0715 Hrs POW

05-Dec-71
Hunter 

20
Sqn Ldr J M Mistry A1014 Sakesar SD MirageIIIs (Fg Off Safdar) killed

05-Dec-71
Hunter 

27
Flt Lt G S Rai A 482 Sakesar SD F-6 (W/C S Hatmi)1235 Hrs killed

05-Dec-71
Hunter 

27
Fg Off K L Malkani A 488 Sakesar SD F-6 (F/O S Raza ) 1235 Hrs killed

05-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

32
Flt Lt V V Tambey B 839 Shorkot AFB SD AAA 1350 Hrs killed

05-Dec-71
MiG-21 

29
Flt Lt Harish Singhji C 764 Suleimanke SD AAA 1530 Hrs POW

05-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

26
Sqn Ldr D S Jafa B 891 E of Lahore SD AAA 1555 Hrs POW

05-Dec-71
Canberra 

35
Flt Lt S C Sandal (Pt)
Flt Lt K S Nanda (Nav) IF923 Masroor SD AAA killed

06-Dec-71
Gnat 

21
. . Uttarlai AF WO during Landing Safe

06-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

222
Fg Off K C Kuruvilla B 854 JassarBridge SD AAA 1025 Hrs. POW

06-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

101
Flt Lt V K Wahi B 868 Chamb SD Pt EJ possibly by Mir III. killed

06-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

101
Flt Lt J Bhattacharya . Chamb SD 1225 Hrs. Eject

06-Dec-71
Mystere 

3
. . Haveli Engine Failure Eject

07-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

26
Sqn Ldr Jiwa Singh B 902 Samba SD F-6 (Fg Off Atiq Sufi) killed

07-Dec-71
Gnat 

9
Fg Off M M Singh . Amritsar Cr on Ferry flight lost control. killed

08-Dec-71
MiG-21 

45
Sqn Ldr Denzil Keelor . Chamb SD AAA Eject

08-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

TACDE
Flt Lt R G Kadam B 910 Risalawala SD F-86 (W/C M H Hashmi) killed

08-Dec-71
Hunter 

7
Wg Cdr B A Coelho BA329 Suleimanke SD AAA 1200 Hrs Hasilpur POW

08-Dec-71
Mystere 

3
. . Haveli SD AAA Amruka Eject

09-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

32
Flt Lt N Shanker B 860 NW Amritsar SD AAA killed

09-Dec-71
HF-24 

10
Sqn Ldr A V Kamat BD859 Hyderabad. SD AAA at Kotri, POW

10-Dec-71
Hunter 

27
Sqn Ldr M K Jain A 938 Chamb SD AAA killed

10-Dec-71
Alize 

310
Lt Cdr Ashok Roy (Pt)
Lt H S Sirohi (Obs)
Acmn O Vijayan (TG) IN203 Arabian Sea. SD F-104 (W/C Arif Iqbal) killed

10-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

26
Flt Lt Dilip Parulkar . Zafarwal SD AAA POW

10-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

108
Flt Lt S K Chibber B 798 Mdi Sdiqganj SD AAA 0915 Hrs killed

11-Dec-71
Alloutte 

114HU
Sqn Ldr K L Bajaj Z 366 Kashmir Hit Power Lines at Pt 7573 killed

11-Dec-71
MiG-21 

1
Flt Lt A B Dhavle C1107 Adampur Accident. SD by a MiG-21 killed

11-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

26
Flt Lt K K Mohan B 780 Shakargarh SD F-86 (Wg Cdr Bhukhari) killed

11-Dec-71
Canberra 

5
Flt Lt R D Naithani (Pt)
Flt Lt G Theophilus (Nav)
Flt Lt M Purohit (Nav) IF1024 35 Miles NE of Bikaner SD?? No Corresponding PAF claim found. could be AA or Disorientation. was attacking Lodharan RS. killed

11-Dec-71
HF-24 

10
Sqn Ldr M S Jatar . Uttarlai AFB Strafed on Ground at by F-104 OK

12-Dec-71
MiG-21 

47
Fg Off P K Sahu C 603 Palam AFB Accident. Undershot Runway. killed

13-Dec-71
Mystere 

3
Sqn Ldr J D Kumar IA1331 Haveli SD AAA killed

13-Dec-71
MiG-21 

47
Wg Cdr H S Gill C 705 Badin SD AAA 1635 Hrs killed

14-Dec-71
Gnat 

18
Fg Off N S Sekhon E 257 Srinagar SD F-86(F/O SB Mirza)0750 Hr killed

14-Dec-71
Krishak 

660
Capt P K Gaur N 965 Shakargarh SD F-86(S/L S Gauhar)1610 Hr killed

15-Dec-71
Vampire 

121


---
. Srinagar Destroyed on Ground N.A

16-Dec-71
Sukhoi-7 

26
Flt Lt T S Dandass B 889 Narowal RS SD AAA killed

17-Dec-71
MiG-21 

29
Flt Lt Tejwant Singh C 716 Pasrur SD F-86 (F/L Maqsood Amir) POW

17-Dec-71
Mystere 

3
. . Haveli Engine Flame out. Eject
*Grand losses 54 Known Losses (Incl 9 Accident Losses) + 2 Unlisted Hunter (Accident) losses.*
Othere Unattributed Pilots:

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## Vinod2070

The number of kills claimed by the two sides are wildly different. Here is one link for Indian cliams:

http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills.pdf



> *Brig General Chuck Yeager's account [29] of the war, from his autobiography, is selectively quoted by Pakistanis in support of PAF claims. However, the credibility of the same is also completely destroyed through the inclusion of certain laughable gems in his own assessment, such as the claim that India wanted to keep East Pakistan for itself, that the IAF operated the MiG-21J (not inducted until 1973 as the MiG-21MF) and that F-86 and F-104 Starfighters constituted half the PAF fleet of 500 aircraft! Yeager gives away his agenda by explicitly labeling the conflict as a surrogate war between the Soviet Union (India) and America (Pakistan). Yeager also mentions that the outcome on the ground was the complete opposite of the outcome of the air war, where the PAF "whipped their (Indian) ***** in the sky ". Yet, without the IAF's dominance over the battlefield and the consequential ability to provide uninterrupted support to ground forces throughout the conflict, how could that have ever happened? Perhaps this embarrassingly false account simply added to the PAF's lack of credibility, fueled in the past by ridiculous claims. Pakistani sources even needed to fabricate the IAF's strength in order to once again portray a David-vs-Goliath
> struggle. For example, a prominent PAF author [37], claims that the IAF had no less than 1200 combat aircraft alone, against the IAF's actual strength of 625 combat aircraft. Another author, a retired Pakistani Brigadier, claims [38] that the IAF was in fact, in possession of, MiG-23s and MiG-19s, as early as 1965.
> 
> Funnily enough, it was the PAF itself and not the IAF, which had a MiG-19 variant, the Shenyang F-6C, during the follow on 1971 conflict. It is thus unsurprising to see so many independent air-power and airwar analysts [30] [33] [35] castigate the PAF for the use of rather bare faced propaganda*


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## Imran Khan

why not you bring BR page here?????/ because there is more losses.


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## Patriot

I think Mr Murad can explain honestly who won air war in West Pakistan.


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## Vinod2070

imran khan said:


> why not you bring BR page here?????/ because there is more losses.



It is not about numbers only. It is about the war objectives. What objectives did the PAF achieve?



> Even if the Pakistani claim that the Indians lost more aircraft is accepted, does it suggest that the Pakistanis won the air war? The answer is a clear no. Because war, in the ultimate analysis, is not a numbers game. Winning a war has to do with achieving clear objectives. For the IAF, the aim was twofold: first, to prevent the PAF from messing with the Indian Army's advances, logistics and launching points; and second, to seriously impair Pakistan's capacity to wage war. The PAF's job was to do the opposite. The pre-emptive air strikes on 3rd December were aimed at knocking out a good part of the IAF while it was on the ground. This failed for the simple reason that the Indians had learnt their lessons of the 1965 war and had constructed fortified pens and bunkers to store their aircraft. More important, young IAF fliers proved they had the grit to go out and fight, even if it meant losing one's life.
> 
> By the end of the first week of the war, PAF fighters in the West appeared to have lost their will to fight. By this time, the IAF was repeatedly hitting secondary targets including railway yards, cantonments, bridges and other installations as well as providing close air support to the Army wherever it was required. The most dangerous were the close air support missions which involved flying low and exposing aircraft to intense ground fire. The IAF lost the most aircraft on these missions as is proved by the high losses suffered by IAF Sukhoi-7 and Hunter squadrons. But their pilots flew sortie after sortie keeping up with the Army and disrupting enemy troop and tank concentrations.



I am waiting for someone to answer the points raised by the original article rather than just go around some number claims.


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## Kasrkin

> This failed for the simple reason that the Indians had learnt their lessons of the 1965 war and had constructed fortified pens and bunkers to store their aircraft. More important, *young IAF fliers proved they had the grit to go out and fight, even if it meant losing one's life*.



Well first of all, as you can see, this article is not exactly impartially written. Professional and neutral observers usually don&#8217;t make such remarks as "they didn't fear for their lives" etc because that is an obvious part of war. This piece is essential rhetorical, designed and intended to flare up the opinion and pride of a domestic audience. 

Now as to the part about PAF initial strikes at IAF not being as devastating as in 1965, well I kind of agree to that. The IAF had worked hard to modernize their methods and ground crews after their humiliating performance in 1965, furthermore heavy amounts of foreign aid was also incoming over the years and helped them cope with what was still IMO the superior performance of PAF. Also while studying all this we should not forget that the IAF has always outnumbered the PAF in a ratio of 2:1 at least. 

Now as to the PAF during 1971 lacking a higher direction in war, well that much is without doubt. Just like the whole of Pakistan, PAF too suffered to from a lack of clear objectives or vision. Pakistan as a whole let the enemy dictate to us the direction of the entire endeavor; ours were only ever knee jerk reactions which the superior Indian leadership (both civilian and military) had already taken into account before the initiation of hostilities. So to put it in simple words, we just played into their hands every step of the way; they have the initiative and they kept it till the end. 

Upon that we were deluded, this whole time we thought that the Americans would not let India try anything too aggressive. The only political aims our leadership had in the war were domestic, i.e. to become Prime Minister. But I digress. There is no excuse for defeat. Our leadership was the worst we have ever had, and the Indians have hardly ever had better generals or a more politically secure civilian government. The PAF was naturally pretty confused, orders from the centre were senseless, often contradictory and obviously futile. An elaborate war plan with India didn&#8217;t exist and those that did were thrown out. Everything was shrouded in controversy. It should not be shocking to anyone that our performance suffered, however at the same time to say that &#8220;PAF fighters in the West had lost their will to fight&#8221; is pretty inaccurate and going over board; no doubt scores of shot down Indian jets and destroyed convoys can attest to that. 

The PAF squadron in the East performed magnificently by all accounts, outnumbered almost 10:1 they put up a good show for themselves, accounting for many kills, in what many refer to as a &#8216;glorious last stand&#8217; before their solitary airfield was finally disabled by the heavy IAF presence. 

So in conclusion it was a bad time for PAF (by PAF standards anyway) just like it was a horrible time for the entire nation. IMO they didn&#8217;t &#8216;fail&#8217; in any sense that they were unable to achieve any particular or reasonable objective. The Indians may feel proud of the IAF, saying they backed their army much like the PAF did in 65&#8230;but if you go over professional evaluations you&#8217;d see that the IAF still didn&#8217;t compare to PAF&#8217;s furious onslaught against Indian land formations in 65, all the while out numbered by the IAF, when the Army leadership could field coherent war plans.


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## Muradk

Vinod2070 said:


> It is not about numbers only. It is about the war objectives. What objectives did the PAF achieve?
> 
> 
> 
> I am waiting for someone to answer the points raised by the original article rather than just go around some number claims.



Well the topic is on who won the Air War in 1971.
for all you Indian friends says that we all know who won doesn't mean anything.
The Yankees made sure when they leave the continent they leave it in a state where war was eminent. How can you run 2 countries when there is a another country sitting between you. Hats of 2 Indian media they are learning fast from Fox news. last night in the news they said that it was Pakistan both times who attacked India first. I have had my share of war with 2 kills I can say that standing anywhere in the world that yes we did win the air war. And guys you took away East Pakistan wasn't that enough for you. so why don't we just cut the crap and except it our IAF has never shown us the correct figures when we had a claim they said no it landed now the Gnat I shot down there is no way in hell that the pilot could have land he had no canopy and my bullets hit the cockpit hitting the pilot as well. it fell in Indian Air Space and there was to much AAG fire I got a clean shot but the next day they said that the Gnat landed.
we can all indulge in this cat and mouse game but the truth is PAF did won the air battles.

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## hasang20

India media is too mind controlling of 62&#37; of poor Indians


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## Vinod2070

^^ There is a big myth about the 1965 war in Pakistan.

For now I don't want to go there.


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## Kasrkin

Yes what a suprise.


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## Vinod2070

> we can all indulge in this cat and mouse game but the truth is PAF did won the air battles.



And that is good enough!

The war was lost but the air battles were won? Really?

Why was the Pakistani armour pounded for 4 days by the IAF in Longewala without any PAF support if they were winning the war.


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## linkinpark

It still remains a mystery, if PAF has won air battle how did IAF achieved air superiority without which it couldn't have tied down Pakistan on the west front.


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## Kasrkin

Only little problem here is that the IAF did NOT achieve air superiority at any time (over the West). Perhaps you are new to this particular term my well-versed friend.



> Why was the Pakistani armour pounded for 4 days by the IAF in Longewala without any PAF support if they were winning the war.



Impartial Links Please? Thanx


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## Tornado

The final tally of the 14-day 1971 war announced by Indian Defence Minister Jagjivan Ram, in the Parliament on Dec 18, 1971, puts Pakistani losses at 94 aircraft and Indian losses at 45 aircraft.The figure for kills was determined though very strict procedures and does not include damaged aircraft or probable kills. It has not been clear whether these claims refer to PAF losses alone or to all aircraft destroyed in combat or if they include the F-86Es captured at Tejgaon, which would make the numbers much higher. A breakdown of kills was never released officially, although a crude estimate of 75 kills mentioned the Official history of the 1971 war, would include 35 Pakistani aircraft lost to the air action and the rest destroyed on the ground. 

*IAF Air to Air claims Dec 1971  Confirmed Kills*​*Date- Kill- Aircraft- Sqn- Claimant- Sector/AB - Victim/Comments*
22 Nov 71 F-86E Gnat F.1 22 F/L R A Massey Boyra W/C Chaudhary (14 sqn) / BO over EP
22 Nov 71 F-86E Gnat F.1 22 F/L M A Ganapathy Boyra F/O Khalil Ahmed (14 sqn) / POW
22 Nov 71 F-86E Gnat F.1 22 F/O D Lazarus Boyra F/L Pervez Quereshi (14 sqn) / POW
04 Dec 71 F-86E Hunter 20 W/C C V Parker Peshawar Not listed as confirmed by No.20 sqn
04 Dec 71 F-86E Hunter 17 W/C N Chatrat Dacca F/L Saeed Afzal Khan (14 sqn) / KIA
04 Dec 71 F-86E Hunter 17 F/L V K Neb Dacca W/C S M Ahmed (14 sqn) / KIA
04 Dec 71 F-86E Hunter 14 W/C R Sundaresan Dacca S/L Dilawar Hussain (14 sqn)
04 Dec 71 F-86E Hunter 37 F/O H Masand Dacca F/O Sajjad Noor (14 sqn)
04 Dec 71 F-86E Hunter ?? F/O S Jayendra Dacca 14 sqn
04 Dec 71 ?Mirage III or F-86 Hunter 27 F/O Sudhir Tyagi Murid ?5 sqn
05 Dec 71 F-86E HF-24 Mk.1 220 S/L K K Bakshi Nayachor 
06 Dec 71 F-86 Gnat F.1 18 S/L V S Pathania Srinagar
07 Dec 71 F-86E (t/n 4030) Hunter ?7 ? Khushalgarh F/O Hamid Khawaja (17 sqn) Pilot crashed while chasing Hunter, acc. to the PAF.
10 Dec 71 F-86E (t/n 3856) Hunter 20 S/L R N Bharadwaj Chamb S/L Aslam Chaudhry / KIA
12 Dec 71 F-6 (t/n 1703) Su-7BMK 32 F/L S S Malhotra Mianwalli F/L Ejazuddin (23 sqn) / BO
12 Dec 71 F-104A (s/n 56-773) MiG-21FL 47 F/L B B Soni Jamnagar W/C M L Middlecoat (9 sqn) / KIA
13 Dec 71 F-86 Hunter OCU F/L K S Suresh Talhar
13 Dec 71 F-86 Hunter OCU S/L F J Mehta Talhar F/O N N A Baig (19 sqn)
W/C M N Singh
15 Dec 71 2x F-86 Hunter T.66 OCU S/L F J Mehta Nayachor Maneuver kill. Both targets flew into the ground.
16 Dec 71 F-6 MiG-21FL 29 F/L S B Shah Nayachor Escort mission
16 Dec 71 F-6 MiG-21FL 29 F/L S B Shah ?Uttarlai Wreckage found by Indian
Army .
17 Dec 71 F-104A MiG-21FL 29 S/L I S Bindra Uttarlai 9 sqn (RJAF)
17 Dec 71 F-6 Su-7BMK ? ? Shakargarh From Official history [1]
17 Dec 71 F-104A MiG-21FL 29 F/L Niraj Kukreja Nayachor 9 sqn (RJAF)
17 Dec 71 F-104A (s/n 56-787) MiG-21FL 29 F/L AK.Datta Nayachor F/L Samad Changezi (9 sqn) / KIA
Dec 71 2x 0-1 Hunter ? ? ? Confirmed from PAF chronicler.


*IAF Air to Air claims Dec 1971 - Damage, Probables and Close calls​**Date- Target- Aircraft- Sqn- Claimant- Sector/AB- Comments*
4 Dec 1971 Mirage-IIIEP Gnat F.1 29 ? Amritsar Mirage claimed as hit. Probable.
4 Dec 1971 F-104A Gnat F.1 2 W/C Johnny Greene Amritsar Intercepted and photographed. No claim.
4 Dec 1971 F-86 Hunter 20 F/O K P Murlidharan Peshawar Probable kill claimed by No.20 sqn but unlikely. Pilot was firing at target but was eventually SD and KIA.
4 Dec 1971 F-86 Hunter 20 S/L K N Bajpai Peshawar Aircombat with target attacked and result unknown.
4 Dec 1971 F-86E MiG-21FL 30 ? Kalaikunda Probable. No claims.
4 Dec 1971 F-86 Hunter 20 W/C C V Parker --- Not claimed by squadron but
mentioned in citation. Damage claim but write off unlikely.
4 Dec 1971 F-86E ( t/n 1689) Hunter 20 W/C C V Parker Peshawar F/L Nayyar Iqbal / KIA (17 sqn). Listed as accident during raid, by Pakistan.
4 Dec 1971 F-86 Hunter 20 F/L C S Dhillon >40 nm from Peshawar 5 min aircombat. Probable kill.
4 Dec 1971 Mirage-IIIEP Hunter 27 F/O Sudhir Tyagi Murid Target claimed damaged in citation.
8 Dec 1971 F-6 (t/n 1508) Su-7BMK (s/n B-910) 26 F/L R G Kadam Risalwala
F/L AJ Siddqui* (23 sqn) is claimed by the PAF to have been shot while chasing this formation. The pilots of both sides were KIA.
9 Dec 1971 Mirage-IIIEP MiG-21FL 1 ? Pathankot 2 K-13 AAMs were launched
and a proximity hit recorded. Target disappeared from radar. Listed as 'Probable'
>9 Dec 1971 F-86 MiG-21FL TACDE W/C T J Master ?Escort K-13 launched and claimed to hit wing of target. Pilot B/O reported.
12 Dec 1971 F-86 HF-24 Mk.1 10 F/O Sreekanth or S/L Brian de Magry Nayachor Engagement inconclusive.
12 Dec 71 F-104A or F- 86 MiG-21FL 47 S/L V Kapila Badin F-104A mentioned in official records as seen crashing but more likely, probable. Rockets
were fired at aerial target.
12 Dec 1971 F-104A MiG-21FL 47 F/L Saigal Jamnagar K-13 launched. Claimed hit . 
14 Dec 1971 F-86E Gnat F.1 18 F/O N S Sekhon Srinagar 1 F-86 claimed as shot and 1 damaged, initially but claim seems to have been revised to
no kills. 
17 Dec 1971 F-104A MiG-21FL 29 F/L S B Shah ?Uttarlai K-13 launched and observed to hit. Probable.

*PAF AAA and Ground Fire Losses​**Date- Target- Victim / Status- Cause- Sector / Claimant*
3 Dec 1971 F-104A Claim [1] AAA Amritsar
3 Dec 1971 B-57B Unknown / KIA [44] 3x SA-2 Halwara (crashed in Pakistan)
4 Dec 1971 B-57B Claim [1] AAA Amritsar
5 Dec 1971 F-104A (s/n 804) S/L Amjad Khan / POW AAA Amritsar / Hav T C Ramaswamy, 27 AD Regt
5 Dec 1971 B-57B Claimed hit but unlikely AAA Amritsar F/L Javed Iqbal / KIA
6 Dec 1971 B-57B F/L G M Malik / KIA AAA Amritsar / Hav Gopala Krishnan, 27
AD Regt S/L I Hameed / KIA
6 Dec 1971 B-57B S/L Z Ahmed / KIA AAA Bhuj S/L Khusro / KIA
6 Dec 1971 B-57B (t/n 3939) S/L Peter Christy / KIA AAA Jamnagar
6 Dec 1971 3x F-86 Claim [1] Small Arms fire ?Chamb / 26 Division
7 Dec 1971 F-6 (t/n 4110) F/L Wajid Ali Khan / POW LMG Marala / Naik Bal Bahadur, 29 AD Regt
7 Dec 1971 F-86F (t/n 1657) S/L Cecil Choudhry / BO AAA Zafarwal / Claimed by Pakistan as fratricide
7 Dec 1971 F-86 Claim AAA
8 Dec 1971 F-86F F/L Fazal Elahi / KIA AAA Zafarwal / Hav Uttam Jawalge, 501AD Grp
9 Dec 1971 F-104A Claim [1] Naval airdefence Okha
10 Dec 1971 Mirage-III Claim AAA Pathankot
11 Dec 1971 F-6 F/L Shahid Raza / KIA AAA Shakar Garh / Hav M Kycharala, 45 AD Regt
11 Dec 1971 F-86 Claim AAA Amritsar
14 Dec 1971 Mirage-III Claimed 'hit' AAA Jammu
17 Dec 1971 F-6 Claim [1] AAA Shakargarh

*IAF Air to Ground kills Dec 1971 - Pakistani losses due to Air to Ground Action​**DATE- KILL- AIRCRAFT- SQN- CLAIMANT- Sector/AB- COMMENTS*
4 Dec 1971 3x Pilatus PC- 3 MiG-21FL 28 W/C B K Bishnoi Tejgaon Identified as light aircraft. Wreckage photographed.
4 Dec 1971 DHC-6 Twin Otter MiG-21FL 28 W/C B K Bishnoi Tejgaon
Solitary DHC-6 in East Pakistan. Wreckage photographed
4 Dec 1971 F-86F in Pen (t/n 1187) Hunter 20 F/L A A Rozario Murid Admitted by Pakistan
4 Dec 1971 2x F-86 Hunter 20 W/C CV Parker VM Peshawar Claimed as decoys by Pakistan but thick black smoke was noticed.
4 Dec 1971 B-57B Su-7BMK 32 F/O A Sathaye Shorkot Two B-57Bs were targeted while being refueled. Photographed by W/C Mangat.
4 Dec 1971 Mirage-III Su-7BMK 32 F/O A Sathaye Shorkot Claim [2] but not mentioned in leader's own account.
4 Dec 1971 3x F-86 Su-7BMK 32 S/L VK Bhatia Shorkot Confirmed from gun camera footage. 1st attack.
4 Dec 1971 C-130 Hunter 20 Lt Arun Prakash, Navy, EX (P) Chakala 3 C-130 were spotted and all three were hit. 1 C-130 confirmed destroyed, 2 damaged.
4 Dec 1971 3x F-86E* Su-7BMK 221 ?W/C A Sridharan Tejgaon Possibly includes RT-33s.
4 Dec 1971 ?Bristol-170 Su-7BMK 221 ?W/C A Sridharan Tejgaon or Kurmitola 
4 Dec 1971 Mirage-III or F-104A Hunter 20 F/O S Balasubramanian Murid
Attackers got airborne at 1035 hrs. Burning wreckage confirmed by Su-7 photorecce at 1200 hrs. The kill was described as a 'needle
nosed' aircraft.
4 Dec 1971 2x F-86 Hunter OCU Unknown Masroor 8 total claims by sqn on
Masroor strikes. Strikes were on 4 and 5 Dec. 4/5 Dec 3x B-57B 1971 3x F-86
Hunter OCU W/C D M Conquest Masroor Credited with destroying 6 aircraft on the ground in citation.
5 Dec 1971 C-130 Hunter 20 Lt Arun Prakash, Navy, EX (P) Mianwali Aircraft was being loaded with troops.
5 Dec 1971 Beech Queen Air (USAF) Hunter 20 F/O B C Karambaya Chakala
The most prolific kill of the war. This was Brig. Gen Chuck Yeager's personal
aircraft. 
5 Dec 1971 C-130 Hunter 20 F/L S S Gahlaut Chakala Shared kill S/L Bharadwaj VM 5 Dec 1971 DHC-6 Twin Otter Hunter 20 F/L S S Gahlaut
Chakala Shared kill. Admitted by Pakistan (Radio).
6 Dec 1971 RB-57D (t/n 3934) Canberra 35 W/C K K Badhwar Masroor dmitted by Pakistan. Last remaining Elint RB-57D.
8 Dec 1971 5x F-86F ( t/ns 1095 ,3839,3848 ,3851, 4018 ) Hunter ?20 Unknown Murid All destroyed aircraft were fully armed and four were in
Pens. Loss admitted by Pakistan but no respective IAF accounts discovered.
8 Dec 1971 3x F-6 Su-7BMK ? ? Risalewala 2 Confirmed C-130
8 Dec 1971 Light aircraft Su-7BMK ? ? Risalewala F/O B C Karambaya
8 Dec 1971 2x F-6 Hunter 20 F/L A L Deoskar Murid The Hunters attacked
aircraft being pushed into Pens. No mention in PAF accounts.
8 Dec 1971 Transport (?Bristol 170) Hunter 20 S/L Bharadwaj VM Murid First pass of attack.
9 Dec 1971 Light aircraft ? ? ? Nawabshah 11/12 Dec 1971 Light aircraft Canberra 16 ?W/C Gautam Tejgaon Destroyed in proximity blast of 4000 lb bomb.
16 Dec 1971 11x F-86E* ---- 28 W/C B K Bishnoi Tezgaon Disabled by PAF after permanent destruction of runway by MiG-21FLs. Five F-86s were recovered by India for Bangladesh.

*IAF Air to Ground kills Dec 1971 - Damage and Probables​**Date- Target- Aircraft- Sqn- Pilot- Sector/AB- Comments*
4 Dec 1971 Blast Pen Su-7BMK 32 F/O A Sathaye Shorkot Destroyed
4 Dec 1971 3x F-86 Su-7BMK 32 S/L VK Bhatia Shorkot 2nd Attack. Claimed
destroyed and listed as probable. Gun camera was ineffective in fading light.
Lt Arun Prakash, Navy, EX (P)
4 Dec 1971 2x C-130 Hunter 20 F/O BC Karambaya Chakala Damaged
5 Dec 1971 Aircraft in Blast Pen Hunter 20 F/O S Balasubramanian Mianwali
Pilot fired into the open mouth of the pen and black smoke of aircraft on fire was observed. 1430 hrs.
5 Dec 1971 B-57B ? ? ? Shorkot Probable (official history/ records) 
6/7 Dec 1971 Hangar Canberra 35 ? Drigh Road (Karachi) Smoke from aircraft fires noted. F/L AA Rozario
7 Dec 1971 Aircraft in Hangar Hunter 20 F/O R Demonte Kohat 400 rounds of 30 mm HE were put into a large hangar which thus emitted black smoke, indicating aircraft fires.
8 Dec 1971 C-130 Hunter 20 Lt Arun Prakash, Navy, EX (P) Chakala
Described as Arun's "Lobster thermidor". Damage to wing and tail
sections. 
8 Dec 1971 Hangar Su-7BMK 32 S/L VK Bhatia Shorkot 57mm rockets were used to destroy the Hangar
8 Dec 1971 B-57B ( s/n 3945) ? ?20 ? Murid Claimed by Pakistan to have
"caught fire" while "servicing'.

*IAF Air to Ground kills Dec 1971  Decoys​*Both the IAF and PAF were known to have deployed several decoys in the form of dummy and retired aircraft. While it was highly convenient to claim that destroyed or attacked aircraft on the ground were actually decoys, it must be mentioned that through extremely strict standards of observation and
reconnaissance plus pre and post-war intelligence, the IAF never claimed any as actual kills. In some cases they were identifiable before being attacked and in others, they did not display the thick black smoke expected.
*Date- Decoy type -Aircraft- Sqn- Pilot- Sector/AB- Comments*
4 Dec 1971 F-86 decoys ? ?28 ? Kurmitola Photographed. Kurmitola mostly had dummy aircraft.
5 Dec 1971 3x F-86 decoys Hunter 27 ? Masroor Destroyed but noted as
decoys. No kills claimed.
7 Dec 1971 2x F-86 Decoys Hunter 20 W/C CV Parker Murid Destroyed but explosion pattern confirmed them as decoys. No kills were claimed.
8 Dec 1971 7x F-6 decoys Su-7BMK 32 S/L VK Bhatia Shorkot Identified and Ignored.


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## Zovc

^ lol... IAF facts and figures are OFCOURSE biased.

Here watch this video:



> The pilots being interviewed are from No. 19 Sqn commanded by Sajjad (Nosy) Haider. The pilots from this No .19 Sqn had every reason to brag as they did not lose a single aircraft throughout the war! The Sqn was credited with destroying almost all the heavy equipment of 15th Infantry Div commanded Maj Gen Naranjan Prasad during his advanced to Lahore in 1965 war. On top of that the Sqn also destroyed close to 14 IAF aircraft on the ground during the renowned Pathankot raid!



IAF had claimed *before* this interview that the Sdqr Leader and two of his men had been shot down and killed.


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## Muradk

Vinod2070 said:


> And that is good enough!
> 
> The war was lost but the air battles were won? Really?
> 
> Why was the Pakistani armour pounded for 4 days by the IAF in Longewala without any PAF support if they were winning the war.



We all have gone through this thread a 100 times but again I will repeat , we the PAF were attacking IAF FOB and regular bases. We told the Army that we are right now trying to take out as many bases we can so they ( PAK Army) doesn't get pounded but a few generals thought they could do what Romel did in Africa but Thar Desert of the Rajasthan state is a total different land scape and different sand. It was a bad move PAF on the 4th and 5th were neck to neck in Dog Fights, buy the time we got the message it was to late plus we didn't have the capacity fuel wise to go over them and dog fight. if we would have all your hunters would have gone down WHY? All the hunter pilots except there OC all the pilots were rockiess. They missed the first time but they did'nt miss the tanks the second time. Pak Army went out of water and fuel my brother who was in Army Aviation dropped water and fuel over them by Bird Dog

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## RedBaron

saadahmed said:


> It is ABOUT 1971.General came here in 1971 not in 1965.We did win in 1965 too.
> -
> Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force
> An Excerpt from Yeager,
> the Autobiography of General (Retd.) Chuck E. Yeager (USAF)
> 
> ...
> India flew numerous raids against the Pakistani air fields with brand new
> SU-7 bombers being escorted in with MiG 21s. On one of those raids, they
> clobbered my small Beech Queen Air that had U.S. Army markings and a big
> American flag painted on the tail. I had it parked at the Islamabad
> airport, and I remember sitting on my front porch on the second day of the
> war, thinking that maybe I ought to move that airplane down to the Iranian
> border, out of range of the Indian bombers, when the damned air-raid siren
> went off, and a couple of Indian jets came streaking in overhead. A moment
> later, I saw a column of black smoke rising from the air field. *My Beech
> Queen was totaled. It was the Indian way of giving Uncle Sam the finger.*
> ...
> 
> Copyright © 1985 by Yeager Inc.



The full story behind the funny Beechcraft incident can be found in the article *The right stuff in the wrong place - Chuck Yeager's crash landing in Pakistan*
*
Washington Monthly, Oct, 1985, by Edward C. Ingraham *

The right stuff in the wrong place - Chuck Yeager's crash landing in Pakistan | Washington Monthly | Find Articles at BNET

Mr Yeager, like many Americans at the time, viewed India as a commie-in-waiting due to its Soviet leanings, hence his views may be biased a bit.


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## Patriot

RedBaron said:


> The full story behind the funny Beechcraft incident can be found in the article *The right stuff in the wrong place - Chuck Yeager's crash landing in Pakistan*
> *
> Washington Monthly, Oct, 1985, by Edward C. Ingraham *
> 
> The right stuff in the wrong place - Chuck Yeager's crash landing in Pakistan | Washington Monthly | Find Articles at BNET
> 
> Mr Yeager, like many Americans at the time, viewed India as a commie-in-waiting due to its Soviet leanings, hence his views may be biased a bit.


Actually, he was not biased.Sir Muradk can confirm that PAF showed him all serial numbers and stuff (Muradk is former senior PAF Pilot and PAF General)
Thanks,
Saad


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## RedBaron

Vinod2070 said:


> And that is good enough!
> 
> The war was lost but the air battles were won? Really?
> 
> Why was the Pakistani armour pounded for 4 days by the IAF in Longewala without any PAF support if they were winning the war.



The simple answer is IAF had a field day with absolutely no PAF presence during the Longewala operations. 

An extract from Brig ZA Khan's "The Way It was": 
_*The PAF was blamed for not providing the promised air support and jeopardising the whole operation. My younger brother, Squadron Leader Shuaib Alam was posted at the Air Headquarters, after the ceasefire I asked him why the air force had not provided the air support. He told me that the only airfield from which the air support could be provided was the Jacobabad airfield which was manned and equipped to receive aircraft. Aircraft from a squadron were earmarked but the necessary orders for them to move to Jacobabad were not issued by the C-in-C of the Air Force. The C-in-C, PAF is on record to have said that he met Lieutenant General Gul Hassan on 4 December and told him that he was not informed about the 18 Division plans and therefore air support could not be provided, with Jacobabad ready to receive aircraft the support could have been provided on 4 December or later from bases other than Jacobabad but no effort was made. When the Indian missile boats approached Karachi and were spotted by a PIA Fokker, the Navy asked for an air attack, the PAF Base commander got the aircraft ready and asked Air Marshal Rahim Khan for approval, he told the Base Commander to tell the Navy to fight its own battle, in the desert, too, he left the army to fight its own battle. *_

Brig ZA Khan commanded an Armoured Regiment (38 Cavalry) that was part of 18 Division which had the mandate to capture and hold Longewala. The full extract can be found here: THE WAY IT WAS - 1 

I have to say that Brig Khan's account itself is controversial. See: Letter

But nobody disputes the fact that PAF played no part in the Longewala episode.


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## RedBaron

Vinod2070 said:


> I know that India won it in land, sea and air. There are still many Pakistanis who want to somehow convince themselves that they won the air war.
> 
> Let's see what have they got for us.




Not all Pakistanis are convinced they won the air war. Here's one PAF officer who thinks PAF performed below par in 1971.
Read the full article here: The Fighter Gap - 1

Excerpt:
Has the PAF performed well? There has been no critical appraisal. The PAF like the other services must have made mistakes or even blunders but these have not been debated. Truth is stranger than fiction. *The PAF except for a very short period in '65, performed well below the required. It is a relatively small force, the support that it can provide to the Army and Navy must be its main role. Has the PAF provided such assistance? Why not? Because the PAFs role remains a debate. It should assist the Army and the Navy and not fight its own war. *The three services must fight the same war and not their own separate battles.

Incidentally, the author, PAF Sqn Ldr (Retd) SHUAIB ALAM KHAN is the brother of Pak Army Brig ZA Khan who was involved in the Longewala operations (read my earlier post about his account of Longewala operations).

So here, you have it from PAF and Pak Army officers: PAF did not support Pak Army in 1971 Western Theatre.

I must confess the family is quite p*ssed off at Pak Army/PAF leadership.

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## Jihad

Aww, the Indians can't have it that they lost 1 battle.
Cheer up guys, more chances to come now, especially with these tensions mounting up.
Perhaps you warmongers will finally get what you want.


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## RedBaron

PK ll JCo0L said:


> Aww, the Indians can't have it that they lost 1 battle.
> Cheer up guys, more chances to come now, especially with these tensions mounting up.
> Perhaps you warmongers will finally get what you want.



Not war-monger, just truth-seeker. Read my other posts on the forum - I have argued against war every single time...

But please let's call a spade a spade....

That is why I quoted PAF and Pak Army accounts for this particular thread, not any Indian account.


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## Jihad

RedBaron said:


> Not war-monger, just truth-seeker. Read my other posts on the forum - I have argued against war every single time...
> 
> But please let's call a spade a spade....
> 
> That is why I quoted PAF and Pak Army accounts for this particular thread, not any Indian account.


Your truth is war.
Perhaps it is not you who has been itching for war, but your fellow countrymates have been dieing for war, and weren't able to sleep for days I think just because they want India to fire things up.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

This has been brought up before as well, and just to reiterate the point, you cannot merely assume that the air war was won by the IAF solely because the War in East Pakistan was won by India.

The title of the thread itself belies that assumption.

If you want to discuss which side had supremacy in the air, then it has to be a discussion limited solely to how the two air forces performed against each other, and not some sort of 'holistic analysis' of the entire war, in which case this thread should be closed and the debate should shift to a general thread on the 1971 war, and any argument over who won would be pointless since we know final result of that war.

If you lot want the discussion to continue, then drop the 'won 1971 and therefore won the air war' assumption. This thread is only about the PAF vs the IAF in 1971.


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## RedBaron

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> This has been brought up before as well, and just to reiterate the point, *you cannot merely assume that the air war was won by the IAF solely because the War in East Pakistan was won by India.*



Ironically, according to Sqn Ldr Khan in his article above, East Pakistan is where PAF performed better. He says on Page 2:

"*The only place where the PAF acquitted itself well was in East Pakistan, both in '65 and in '71.* In '65, it struck Kalikunda twice, Bhagdogra, Hasimara and Agartala. In 71 the Dacca air base, handicapped by not having a wireless observer unit or a main radar (evacuated to West Pakistan) gave an excellent account for itself. It lost only four aircraft in air combat, including the present Chief of Air Staff who became a prisoner of war. The IAF was severely punished in its day attacks and despite, the Indian preponderance of 10 or 20 to 1, they stopped day raids and concentrated their air effort to night high altitude bombing. No aircraft was damaged by these attacks, 12 or 13 aircraft remained when runway repair was given up and the pilots were evacuated, according to plan."


IAF mandate was not merely dogfighting PAF and counting kills. It's primary role was to support the Army, which it did splendidly. So who won the Air War? Even assuming PAF may have had more kills to its name, its lack of support caused the Longewala debacle and Karachi port to be attacked by missile boats. Is it a case of winning a battle yet losing the war?

I rest my case. For those who want to delve into details please read both articles in their entirety. They are lucid and entertaining. Thank you all.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

RedBaron said:


> Ironically, according to Sqn Ldr Khan in his article above, East Pakistan is where PAF performed better. He says on Page 2:
> 
> "*The only place where the PAF acquitted itself well was in East Pakistan, both in '65 and in '71.* In '65, it struck Kalikunda twice, Bhagdogra, Hasimara and Agartala. In 71 the Dacca air base, handicapped by not having a wireless observer unit or a main radar (evacuated to West Pakistan) gave an excellent account for itself. It lost only four aircraft in air combat, including the present Chief of Air Staff who became a prisoner of war. The IAF was severely punished in its day attacks and despite, the Indian preponderance of 10 or 20 to 1, they stopped day raids and concentrated their air effort to night high altitude bombing. No aircraft was damaged by these attacks, 12 or 13 aircraft remained when runway repair was given up and the pilots were evacuated, according to plan."
> 
> 
> IAF mandate was not merely dogfighting PAF and counting kills. It's primary role was to support the Army, which it did splendidly. So who won the Air War? Even assuming PAF may have had more kills to its name, its lack of support caused the Longewala debacle and Karachi port to be attacked by missile boats. Is it a case of winning a battle yet losing the war?
> 
> I rest my case. For those who want to delve into details please read both articles in their entirety. They are lucid and entertaining. Thank you all.



Your 'case' would appear to validate the assertion that the PAF did indeed win the PAF vs IAF contest.

As I said before, this thread isn't about the war of 1971, it is about the performance of the two air arms vs each other. What the IAF's mission was doesn't matter within that limited context - the IAF would obviously have to engage with PAF fighters when it came into contact with them. 

Its not like the IAF pilots said, 'ignore the PAF fighters boys, our job is to support the ground forces', and then proceeded to get shot down by the PAF.


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## Vinod2070

Zovc said:


> ^ lol... IAF facts and figures are OFCOURSE biased.
> 
> Here watch this video:
> 
> IAF had claimed *before* this interview that the Sdqr Leader and two of his men had been shot down and killed.
> 
> Nn7CM5sijg0[/media] - PAF vs IAF must see to find out which one is the best



Can we get over this single video that is played endlessly by some Pakistani members and quoting Chuck Yeager?

This is just a few young men bragging on their base in front of cameras. Their word is no gospel.

Chuck Yeager has been proved to be factually wrong and biased.


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## Vinod2070

I disagree with limiting the air war to a numbers game of IAF Vs. PAF.

First, there is no way to confirm the numbers. Both sides have widely different claims. Then the air forces were not fighting their own personal war but were a part of the bigger effort and that perspective can't be lost in any serious debate.

The number of sorties flown, the support to the army advances, the attrition rate per sorty, the kind of secondary targets hit, the aircrafts lost in air Vs. ground (flying low to provide close air support) etc. can't be taken out of any equation. They have to form part of the overall data points.


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## Goodperson

OK PAF has won some battles in easter or western fronts of India but Pakistan lost the war. I do not see any significance in PAF winning if at all the nation looses.


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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> This has been brought up before as well, and just to reiterate the point, you cannot merely assume that the air war was won by the IAF solely because the War in East Pakistan was won by India.
> 
> The title of the thread itself belies that assumption.
> 
> If you want to discuss which side had supremacy in the air, then it has to be a discussion limited solely to how the two air forces performed against each other, *and not some sort of 'holistic analysis' of the entire war*, in which case this thread should be closed and the debate should shift to a general thread on the 1971 war, and any argument over who won would be pointless since we know final result of that war.
> 
> If you lot want the discussion to continue, then drop the 'won 1971 and therefore won the air war' assumption. This thread is only about the PAF vs the IAF in 1971.



I meant the role of the two air forces holistically in the overall war effort. Not just their claimed kills in the air.

I hope that makes it clearer.


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## EagleEyes

RedBaron said:


> Not all Pakistanis are convinced they won the air war. Here's one PAF officer who thinks PAF performed below par in 1971.
> Read the full article here: The Fighter Gap - 1
> 
> Excerpt:
> Has the PAF performed well? There has been no critical appraisal. The PAF like the other services must have made mistakes or even blunders but these have not been debated. Truth is stranger than fiction. *The PAF except for a very short period in '65, performed well below the required. It is a relatively small force, the support that it can provide to the Army and Navy must be its main role. Has the PAF provided such assistance? Why not? Because the PAFs role remains a debate. It should assist the Army and the Navy and not fight its own war. *The three services must fight the same war and not their own separate battles.
> 
> Incidentally, the author, PAF Sqn Ldr (Retd) SHUAIB ALAM KHAN is the brother of Pak Army Brig ZA Khan who was involved in the Longewala operations (read my earlier post about his account of Longewala operations).
> 
> So here, you have it from PAF and Pak Army officers: PAF did not support Pak Army in 1971 Western Theatre.
> 
> I must confess the family is quite p*ssed off at Pak Army/PAF leadership.



This incident has been discussed to death, and has been posted by sir Murad in the same thread. Just because IAF got clear shot at the Pakistan Army in their OWN country.. doesn't mean ANYTHING about IAF having supremacy. Enjoying such a feat is a clear embarrasement that the force couldn't keep their own air space clear during the war time.

As for those who are mentioning about their great feat about dividing Pakistan, and being successful enough to force the Pakistan Army to surrender need to realize that ANY nation can be divided and surrendered in the event we were in.

With all the history, and the heroes we have. I would pick the PAF with 50 odd fighters over IAF having a dominance force of 100+ which was minimum average in the both wars fought between two nations.


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## Myth_buster_1

what a sorry @ss loser indian reta officer! trying to be so factual and real but faild mesriably to provide facts rather he proved himself to be a attention fool joker!




Vinod2070 said:


> Brig General Chuck Yeager's account [29] of the war, from his autobiography, is selectively quoted by Pakistanis in support of PAF claims. However, the credibility of the same is also completely destroyed through the inclusion of certain laughable gems in his own assessment, such as the claim that India wanted to keep East Pakistan for itself, that the IAF operated the MiG-21J (not inducted until 1973 as the MiG-21MF) and that F-86 and F-104 Starfighters constituted half the PAF fleet of 500 aircraft!



the funny thing is he himslef has exaggerate and twisted the figers more then chuck did.. PAF with 500 aircraft?? lol 

ACIG.ORG

(In summary, on 3 December 1971, the PAF had seven F-104A/B Starfighters, 23 Mirage IIIEP/RP/DP (of which some 20 were operational), a total of 136 F-86F and Sabre F.Mk.6s (118 operational), 54 F-6 and MiG-19s (48 operational), 19 B-57Bs (18 operational), one B-57C and two RB-57Fs, eleven T-33As and three RT-33As, 37 Cessna T-37As, some 40 T-6s (of which 17 were deployed in combat), at least three Fokker F.27s and nine C-130s, for a total of 263 combat-, around a dozen of transport-, and slightly over 80 training aircraft, as well as 12 helicopters.)

still 263 or even 300 combat strenth is no where close to 500 what mr. wanna be factual says.



> Yeager gives away his agenda by explicitly labeling the conflict as a surrogate war between the Soviet Union (India) and America (Pakistan). Yeager also mentions that the outcome on the ground was the complete opposite of the outcome of the air war, where the PAF "whipped their (Indian) ***** in the sky ". Yet, without the IAF's dominance over the battlefield and the consequential ability to provide uninterrupted support to ground forces throughout the conflict, how could that have ever happened? Perhaps this embarrassingly false account simply added to the PAF's lack of credibility, fueled in the past by ridiculous claims. Pakistani sources even needed to fabricate the IAF's strength in order to once again portray a David-vs-Goliath
> struggle.



no dough chuck is anti soviet but the fact does not change that PAF destroyed over 100 IAF fighters! not all in the air like chuck mentioned.




> For example, a prominent PAF author [37], claims that the IAF had no less than 1200 combat aircraft alone, against the IAF's actual strength of 625 combat aircraft. Another author, a retired Pakistani Brigadier, claims [38] that the IAF was in fact, in possession of, MiG-23s and MiG-19s, as early as 1965.


 
lol check out the professionalism in him! now he is playing "he said that he said this" game and still did not provide any accurate information! IAF did had a strenth of 1200 aircraft not all combat like this fact twister says. i dough any pak rtd officer would make such a claim like IAF operated mig-23 and 19 when even our pak military fanboys know better heck i have come across indian fanboys on youtube who claim PAF had f-16s in 1971 war. 



> Funnily enough, it was the PAF itself and not the IAF, which had a MiG-19 variant, the Shenyang F-6C, during the follow on 1971 conflict. It is thus unsurprising to see so many independent air-power and airwar analysts [30] [33] [35] castigate the PAF for the use of rather bare faced propaganda



 funnily enough, it was PAF with 40 opperational F-6A not "C" varriant like this guys claims.


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## GunMan

1.we all know the final outcome of 71 war.so,no point in seeing air war,ground war or sea war separeately.

2.IAF lost majority of its fighters from ground fires during ground attack sorties.Also its widely believed that IAF did more than twise the ground attack sortie PAF did.In that process though it lost many aircrafts its also helped the ground troops in bringing fast and definite outcome of the war.Which was not exactly the case with PAF ,take for instance , Longewala battle.

3.Both in 65(definitely) & 71 wars PAF had numerically little smaller but technically better fighters than IAF.PAF was also undoubtedly better trained with ace pilots like Chuck Yeager(USAF). so not surprisingly,the PAF had a better kill ratio.

4.This is important and any millitary enthusiast should keep this in mind to see Indo-Pak conflicts in a rational way. 

Before 65 war,pakistani leardership had this view(self sustained) that some how Indians(hindus) are inferior in a martial context.U know all those bogus martial race banter.Thats why Pakistan attacked India in during 1965.But after the debacle of 71 war,its sinked down in the minds of pakistanis that its impossible to take India in conventional wars.That why they vowed to bulid nuclear weapons any how and started a policy of proxy war to bleed in india in thousand cuts which is continuing in some form or other till date e,g.,Punjab,Kashmir...LeT,Jaish,fake currency etc


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Goodperson said:


> I do not see any significance in PAF winning if at all the nation looses.



Its irrelevant in the context of this thread.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vinod2070 said:


> Chuck Yeager has been proved to be factually wrong and biased.



In terms of tallying the losses of both sides and analyzing the performance of each? How has he been proved factually wrong in those aspects of his analysis?


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vinod2070 said:


> I disagree with limiting the air war to a numbers game of IAF Vs. PAF.
> 
> First, there is no way to confirm the numbers. Both sides have widely different claims. Then the air forces were not fighting their own personal war but were a part of the bigger effort and that perspective can't be lost in any serious debate.
> 
> The number of sorties flown, the support to the army advances, the attrition rate per sorty, the kind of secondary targets hit, the aircrafts lost in air Vs. ground (flying low to provide close air support) etc. can't be taken out of any equation. They have to form part of the overall data points.



And at no point have I suggested merely looking at the overall numbers of Aircraft lost without taking into account whether or not they were lost in Air Combat.

The thread has to be limited to this context in this discussion because the way you want to frame the discussion is pointless. 

You want to argue that the IAF's primary mission was to support Indian ground forces in the war. We know which side won the war, therefore you argue that the IAF won vs the PAF. There is nothing to discuss from that perspective. 

You are framing the question to fit your perspective and answering it in the same breath!

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

dhruva0211 said:


> Then according to you, Taliban would be the clear winners against the war with USA in Afghanistan because USA lost more aircraft in Operation Enduring Freedom and since than Taliban.....Of course, Taliban never dared to fly their worthless aircraft if they had any aircraft to fly at all. War is not a school backyard fight that you compare numbers and come up winners (assuming IAF lost more aircraft than PAF - which anyway is not the case)... War is fought along strategic objectives backed by logistical planning and thrust of armed forces. let us talk about Chuck Yeager........it is a fact that Chuck Yeager proved horribly wrong in the 1971 war....he said PAF was the greatest air force...he also said that Pakistani army will be in New Delhi in a week.....he was wrong on both counts.....Chuck Yeager was a legendary air force warrior, no doubt about that....but he was acting as an official advisor to Pakistani Government during 1971 war, so his position was biased...did Chuck Yeager say that Soviet air force was the best in class??....even though without doubt it was the best air force during his times.......No, he did not say that because Soviets were enemy state of US, so his vantage point was different....



Since the Taliban do not have an airforce, how do you conduct a comparison of the 'USAF vs the Taliban AF'? Thats a pointless argument.

If you want to argue that Chuck Yaeger's claims about PAF vs IAF losses and performance were incorrect, then you need to actually post sources and links to show so, not merely say that 'it is a fact'. Such an exercise would be entirely within the subject of this thread, and should be what the members focus on - trying to validate or discredit Air Combat numbers.


> well i guess the pakistanis need to a shoulder to cry on after they lost the war....i don't think the Indians should be complaining....after all we need to be sensitive to our neighbour's predicament


And no need to flame - if you cannot participate in a discussion with civility then don't participate. I banned two Pakistani posters yesterday for ignoring my warning on that count and I'll have no qualms about banning anyone else if you cannot be civil and stick to civil and logical discussion.

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## Myth_buster_1

GunMan said:


> 1.we all kmow the final outcome war 71.*no point in seeing air war,*ground war or sea war separeately.



thats the point for this thread! 



> 2.IAF lost majority of its fighters from ground fire during ground attack sorties.Also its widely believed that IAF did more than twise the ground attack sortie PAF did.In that process though it lost many aircrafts its also helped the ground troops bringing fast and definite outcome of the war.Which was not exactly the case with PAF ,take for instance of Longewala battle.



- IAF inflicted just about same loss on ground, air, and by air defence. that sums up close to 100! the longewala battle has been discused to death and you may get in depth answer and no PAF was not scared of IAF like your peta g likes to say.




> 3.Both in 65(definately) & 71 wars PAF had numerically little smaller but technically better fighters in their than IAF.PAF was also undoubtedly better trained with ace pilots like Chuck Yeager(USAF). so not surprisingly the PAF better kill ratio.


Chuck was not here to train our pilots! he served here as advisor! dont have an impression that IAF had no training with USAF infact both PAF and IAF where their togather and some were course mates?! lol.. 

and by the way i have failed to understand how 200 or so F-86 F-104 f-6 are supirior to mig-21 gnat hunters su-7s?? lol.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Manu said:


> *A better analysis of effectiveness of the two air forces is provided by the losses per sortie figure. The IAF flew at least double the number of combat sorties per day than the PAF, thereby exposing itself to ground fire and enemy interdiction. Despite this, the IAF's attrition rate of 0.86 per 100 sorties during the 1971 War compares favourably with the Israeli rate of 1.1 in the Yom Kippur War. The PAF's overall attrition rate works out to 2.47 (including transporters and recce aircraft lost on the ground). If aircraft destroyed on the ground are not taken into account, the rate works out to 1.12, which is still very high given that PAF aircraft never really stood back to fight.
> 
> The question of loss is important but, in the ultimate analysis, secondary. Achieving air superiority cost the IAF dearly in 1971 but in the end it managed to achieve complete dominance over the skies in both East and West Pakistan.*
> 
> 1971 India-Pakistan War: The Air War - Case West



This continues to focus on the overall air war, not PAF vs IAF, and that last statement is completely unsubstantiated, at least as far as the information in the article is concerned.

The IAF could not achieve dominance in the skies unless it had a overwhelming advantage in air2air combat vs the PAF, or the PAF fleet was decimated and non longer posed a challenge to the IAF.

Both of those situations are possible, but this thread is focusing primarily on the former.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

dhruva0211 said:


> Well it is not a pointless argument.....Taliban did have an airforce, even though they had 10-20 aircraft....they had used it very effectively against Northen alliance prior to Operation Enduring Freedom.....so it fits very well in the mircrosm of argument that you are trying to advance against the IAF and in favour of PAF....OK let us talk of the war against Iraq....Saddam did have an air force in 2003.....but US lost more aircraft simply because it was in offensive mission and flying more sorties.....it is simple mathematics.....the more you put yourself in the line of fire, the more are your chances of being shot down......how can an air force that is not flying any sorties loose more aircraft....as for posting facts, the rules do not allow me to post links before 15 months, otherwise the information is readily available on simple googling



The argument is pointless in the context of comparing the Taliban to the USAF, since there was no air combat worth mentioning between the two. As you said, the Taliban AF was used against the NA, not the US. 

Again, the argument with Iraq vs US that you bring is also one of the overall conflict, not one of the respective AF's vs each other, in which case the US has an unarguable advantage. I do not believe the US lost more AC than the Iraqis in A2A combat.

That is the context for the discussion in this thread as well - PAF vs IAF. Not losses due to ground fire, or attrition, but losses in A2A combat with each other.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

dhruva0211 said:


> In that case I would have to say that even the context is pointless....you are trying to compare IAF losses v/s PAF losses and that too only in A2A combat....can you first of all tell me what is the motivation behind this (to me) quiete pointless context....no war has ever been fought along the context that you are setting up for this discussion....in fact, with this limited single track focus, you cannot even ***** the performance of the respective air forces in a holistic manner.....and how do you tell that Chuck Yeager is telling the truth, or for that matter IAF or PAF is telling the truth....certainly no Pakistani worth his mettle is going to admit that he lost more number of aircraft....ditto India.....the only yardstick to measure the performance of respective wings of armed forces is the final result of the war and whether strategic objectives were achieved.....do you really think that PAF pilots were just given a simple brief that their only job is to shoot down IAF aircraft in 1971 war....in that case, you do not appreciate the complexities of an air force as an armed wing capable of altering situation in theatre of combat and the final result....you are equating war to a school backyard brawl and oversimplifying the context.



First of all, I didn't start this thread, and Indian did. And the title of thread is what limits the context of the discussion. 

If you wish to discuss whether the IAF achieved ts objectives in providing air support to ground forces in the war, and whether or not that had a decisive impact on the result of the war, then that does not fall under the ambit of this thread.

As I told Vinod, it is pointless to start a thread comparing the performance of a particular arm of the two Military's, and then argue that the performance is tied to the final result in the overall conflict - in which case if the final result is known, what is there to discuss?

Such a discussion might be more constructive in the context of the 1965 war, where there was no clear winner.

In the case of 1971, the overall war was won by India, we know that, but how did the IAF fare against the PAF in A2A combat is the question here.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

^^^ I am aware of the complexities of any war, but again, if you know what the final result of the war was, and you want to tie performance of a particular arm of the military to the final result, and the result is known, what is the point of discussion?


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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> In terms of tallying the losses of both sides and analyzing the performance of each? How has he been proved factually wrong in those aspects of his analysis?



His overall credibility goes down because of some of his claims that prove that he was highly opinionated and factually wrong.



> *Brig General Chuck Yeager's account [29] of the war, from his autobiography, is selectively quoted by Pakistanis in support of PAF claims. However, the credibility of the same is also completely destroyed through the inclusion of certain laughable gems in his own assessment, such as the claim that India wanted to keep East Pakistan for itself, that the IAF operated the MiG-21J (not inducted until 1973 as the MiG-21MF) and that F-86 and F-104 Starfighters constituted half the PAF fleet of 500 aircraft! Yeager gives away his agenda by explicitly labeling the conflict as a surrogate war between the Soviet Union (India) and America (Pakistan). Yeager also mentions that the outcome on the ground was the complete opposite of the outcome of the air war, where the PAF "whipped their (Indian) ***** in the sky ". Yet, without the IAF's dominance over the battlefield and the consequential ability to provide uninterrupted support to ground forces throughout the conflict, how could that have ever happened? Perhaps this embarrassingly false account simply added to the PAF's lack of credibility, fueled in the past by ridiculous claims.*



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/18071-who-won-air-war-1971-a.html#post248799


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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> And at no point have I suggested merely looking at the overall numbers of Aircraft lost without taking into account whether or not they were lost in Air Combat.
> 
> The thread has to be limited to this context in this discussion because the way you want to frame the discussion is pointless.
> 
> *You want to argue that the IAF's primary mission was to support Indian ground forces in the war. We know which side won the war, therefore you argue that the IAF won vs the PAF. There is nothing to discuss from that perspective.
> *
> You are framing the question to fit your perspective and answering it in the same breath!



I think that the article sums of the objectives of the two air forces quite well.


> *
> Even if the Pakistani claim that the Indians lost more aircraft is accepted, does it suggest that the Pakistanis won the air war? The answer is a clear no. Because war, in the ultimate analysis, is not a numbers game. Winning a war has to do with achieving clear objectives. For the IAF, the aim was twofold: first, to prevent the PAF from messing with the Indian Army's advances, logistics and launching points; and second, to seriously impair Pakistan's capacity to wage war. The PAF's job was to do the opposite. *



So while the head on IAF Vs. PAF kills are important, they can't be the be all and end all of the war. I started this thread not to say that because India won the war, it won the air war too but to say the IAF contributed decisively to the victory while PAF could not act decisively to prevent it.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

dhruva0211 said:


> Well even from your perspective also, there cannot be any discussion....publish the IAF figures (aircraft lost, shot down etc), PAF figures and figures of Chuck Yeager...discussion is complete
> 
> Let me ask you a simple question then:
> What are you trying to discuss and why??



Actually at no point have I suggested that Chuck Yaegers comments are the end all of the analysis of the A2A combat results, I have questioned the comments of some members who have said Yaeger is wrong by asking them validate their assertions that Yaeger's analysis on PAF kills and performance is incorrect.

As someone else pointed out, there are varying counts on how many aircraft each side lost, the uncertainty can form the basis of a discussion.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vinod2070 said:


> I think that the article sums of the objectives of the two air forces quite well.
> 
> So while the head on IAF Vs. PAF kills are important, they can't be the be all and end all of the war. I started this thread not to say that because India won the war, it won the air war too but to say the IAF contributed decisively to the victory while PAF could not act decisively to prevent it.



Vinod,

In that case, your thread should have been about whether the IAF contributed decisively to the 1971 victory, and not what it is titled currently.


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## Myth_buster_1

Vinod2070 said:


> His overall credibility goes down because of some of his claims that prove that he was highly opinionated and factually wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/18071-who-won-air-war-1971-a.html#post248799




i have already answered and busted that bubble of your bk vetdream! 





PC said:


> the funny thing is he himslef has exaggerate and twisted the figers more then chuck did.. PAF with 500 aircraft?? lol
> 
> ACIG.ORG
> 
> (In summary, on 3 December 1971, the PAF had seven F-104A/B Starfighters, 23 Mirage IIIEP/RP/DP (of which some 20 were operational), a total of 136 F-86F and Sabre F.Mk.6s (118 operational), 54 F-6 and MiG-19s (48 operational), 19 B-57Bs (18 operational), one B-57C and two RB-57Fs, eleven T-33As and three RT-33As, 37 Cessna T-37As, some 40 T-6s (of which 17 were deployed in combat), at least three Fokker F.27s and nine C-130s, for a total of 263 combat-, around a dozen of transport-, and slightly over 80 training aircraft, as well as 12 helicopters.)
> 
> still 263 or even 300 combat strenth is no where close to 500 what mr. wanna be factual says.
> 
> 
> 
> no dough chuck is anti soviet but the fact does not change that PAF destroyed over 100 IAF fighters! not all in the air like chuck mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol check out the professionalism in him! now he is playing "he said that he said this" game and still did not provide any accurate information! IAF did had a strenth of 1200 aircraft not all combat like this fact twister says. i dough any pak rtd officer would make such a claim like IAF operated mig-23 and 19 when even our pak military fanboys know better heck i have come across indian fanboys on youtube who claim PAF had f-16s in 1971 war.
> 
> 
> 
> funnily enough, it was PAF with 40 opperational F-6A not "C" varriant like this guys claims.


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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> Vinod,
> 
> In that case, your thread should have been about whether the IAF contributed decisively to the 1971 victory, and not what it is titled currently.



I would think they mean the same thing. IAF was successful in its objectives of doing it's bit towards the overall effort. That means success and therefore victory.

The victory came not despite the IAF's failures but because of it's very strong role and contributions.


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## Muradk

Vinod2070 said:


> I would think they mean the same thing. IAF was successful in its objectives of doing it's bit towards the overall effort. That means success and therefore victory.
> 
> The victory came not despite the IAF's failures but because of it's very strong role and contributions.



I have the answer 
India won every time BUSS HAPPY NOW. This discussion is like the Kashmir Issue can never be solved.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Vinod2070 said:


> IAF was successful in its objectives of doing it's bit towards the overall effort. That means success and therefore victory.



Again, the outcome of the 1971 war is not in question, and as I pointed out earlier, you linked your question to the outcome, thereby trivializing the entire exercise of having a discussion since you asked and answered your own question.

What would you like us to do? Try and show that India did not win the 1971 war? 

If not, and if victory in the war indicates IAF superiority, then what do you want us to discuss?

The only thing to discuss might be how the IAF fared against the PAF in A2A combat. 

An additional avenue to explore, if you want to apply a more comprehensive approach to the idea of Aerial warfare, may perhaps be an analysis of the war on the Western Front.

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## ejaz007

There are certain topics that are repeated again and again and members from India and Pakistan don't agree on them. This topic is one of them.

Before opening such a thread one should keep in mind the ground realities during 1971. I shall limit myself to the air aspect. At the time of war there were about 200 IAF fighters positiones against East Pakistan against 16 of PAF Sabers. At the end of war PAF destroyed 11 Sabers to prevent their capture. This is well documented. This means we only lost 5 during the war and all were not lost to IAF some definitely went down to ground defenses too.

With the kind of air power at the disposal of the IAF against East Pakistan and also the small element of IN air wing against the sole PAF air base IAF/IN were not able to destroy PAF and PAF from time to time managed to get air borne and inflict damages.

Considering this I do believe that what ever the outcome of the conflict morally and efficiency wise PAF won the air battle.

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## third eye

ejaz007 said:


> There are certain topics that are repeated again and again and members from India and Pakistan don't agree on them. This topic is one of them.
> 
> Before opening such a thread one should keep in mind the ground realities during 1971. I shall limit myself to the air aspect. At the time of war there were about 200 IAF fighters positiones against East Pakistan against 16 of PAF Sabers. *At the end of war PAF destroyed 11 Sabers to prevent their capture. This is well documented. This means we only lost 5 during the war and all were not lost to IAF some definitely went down to ground defenses too.*
> With the kind of air power at the disposal of the IAF against East Pakistan and also the small element of IN air wing against the sole PAF air base IAF/IN were not able to destroy PAF and PAF from time to time managed to get air borne and inflict damages.
> 
> Considering this I do believe that what ever the outcome of the conflict morally and efficiency wise PAF won the air battle.



How would you consider a AF who destroys its AC without putting them the into battle ( even in a near loose situation) when the integrity of the nation was at stake ? Were the pilots fearful of their lives or did the PAF run out of ATF ?

I feel that raising issues like is thread is out of place after so many yrs, but now that we are discussing it I am curious to know the thoughts of the PAF then. I can accept rotary wing assets flying into Burma as they may not have contributed to delaying the fall of Dhaka, but fighters being destroyed by the PAF amounts to surrender before Niazi did. If the fighters could not be flown to Burma, & were to be destroyed, why not go down in battle ?

... & still the PAF ' won' the air war ?


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## Indicom

While respecting the sacrifices of the Mukti Bahini,the above pics posted was a result of the bombing campaign by the naval Sea Hawks & the Alize operating from INS Vikrant off Coxbazaar,Chittagong.


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## Muradk

third eye said:


> How would you consider a AF who destroys its AC without putting them the into battle ( even in a near loose situation) when the integrity of the nation was at stake ? Were the pilots fearful of their lives or did the PAF run out of ATF ?
> 
> I feel that raising issues like is thread is out of place after so many yrs, but now that we are discussing it I am curious to know the thoughts of the PAF then. I can accept rotary wing assets flying into Burma as they may not have contributed to delaying the fall of Dhaka, but fighters being destroyed by the PAF amounts to surrender before Niazi did. If the fighters could not be flown to Burma, & were to be destroyed, why not go down in battle ?
> 
> ... & still the PAF ' won' the air war ?




*Does any of us look afraid or in a state of panic remember we were fighting 10 to 1 in East PAK*







*Wise words of a old friend*

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## Vinod2070

Muradk said:


> I have the answer
> India won every time BUSS HAPPY NOW. This discussion is like the Kashmir Issue can never be solved.



Considering that this thread was prompted by your comment in another thread:



Muradk said:


> Yar Vinod I don't expect such comments from you. We all know who controlled the skies and there is nothing to be ashamed about it. Yes I admit we lost east Pakistan but we did kick IAF butt and you being an educated person cannot deny that.



I was expecting a more vigorous defense than this. Something beyond that 1965 BBC interview video, beyond General Chuck Yeager's comments and beyond a comment by some supposed USAF general to someone's uncle that Sargodha is the best air force training institute in the world (surprisingly no one mentioned it here).

I thought this is easier than the Kashmir issue. 

Anything that India and Pakistan touch becomes intractable it seems!


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## third eye

Muradk said:


> *Does any of us look afraid or in a state of panic remember we were fighting 10 to 1 in East PAK*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Wise words of a old friend*




What you look like is of no consequence... what you did / do is what matters. Looks do not kill, at least when the shooting war stars.They are only relevant in peace time & for PR films.

I could post pics of well turned & aggressive looking POW's standing in Indian POW camps... even NIazi did not look scared in the pic wherein signed on the dotted line.

PS. Were PAF pilots taking group photographs of themselves during the war ?

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## Vinod2070

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Again, the outcome of the 1971 war is not in question, and as I pointed out earlier, you linked your question to the outcome, thereby trivializing the entire exercise of having a discussion since you asked and answered your own question.*
> 
> What would you like us to do? Try and show that India did not win the 1971 war?
> 
> If not, and if victory in the war indicates IAF superiority, then what do you want us to discuss?
> 
> The only thing to discuss might be how the IAF fared against the PAF in A2A combat.
> 
> *An additional avenue to explore, if you want to apply a more comprehensive approach to the idea of Aerial warfare, may perhaps be an analysis of the war on the Western Front.*



The idea was to discuss the air war in the Western theater only. I know PAF was hopelessly outnumbered in the Eastern theater and I never even went there.

This discussion started from Mr. Muradk's post in another thread. I wanted to explore the basis of the claims of Pakistan's victory in the air war and air-supremacy and how that could possibly be when the overall outcome was the opposite.

And may be the expectation was that someone will discuss the issues raised in the original article and try to explain Pakistan's POV on those issues.

Sadly we never got beyond the 1965 BBC video and General Chuck Yeager's comments.


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## Muradk

dhruva0211 said:


> Mr MuradK, are you blessed with divine visison that you look at the photograph and still be able to tell what is going on in their minds? A photograph is just a snapshot that is captures time of less than a fraction of a second. And this is the proof that you present against a line of argument. Very amateurish indeed



Careful _________________________________.


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## Vinod2070

ejaz007 said:


> There are certain topics that are repeated again and again and members from India and Pakistan don't agree on them. This topic is one of them.
> 
> Before opening such a thread one should keep in mind the ground realities during 1971. I shall limit myself to the air aspect. At the time of war there were about 200 IAF fighters positiones against East Pakistan against 16 of PAF Sabers. At the end of war PAF destroyed 11 Sabers to prevent their capture. This is well documented. This means we only lost 5 during the war and all were not lost to IAF some definitely went down to ground defenses too.
> 
> With the kind of air power at the disposal of the IAF against East Pakistan and also the small element of IN air wing against the sole PAF air base IAF/IN were not able to destroy PAF and PAF from time to time managed to get air borne and inflict damages.
> 
> Considering this I do believe that what ever the outcome of the conflict morally and efficiency wise PAF won the air battle.



I don't even see the need to discuss the air war in the Eastern theater. That was one-sided with the PAF totally outnumbered.

It is about the air war in the Western theater where the odds were more even.


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## EagleEyes

third eye said:


> What you look like is of no consequence... what you did / do is what matters. Looks do not kill, at least when the shooting war stars.They are only relevant in peace time & for PR films.
> 
> I could post pics of well turned & aggressive looking POW's standing in Indian POW camps... even NIazi did not look scared in the pic wherein signed on the dotted line.
> 
> PS. Were PAF pilots taking group photographs of themselves during the war ?



PAF did, and IAF couldn't do. The ratio of air battles won by PAF is too much compared to the IAF. Its not even worth discussing. This thread is started by someone who is confused about his air force when he heard from somebody from the other side who FOUGHT it.


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## asaad-ul-islam

third eye said:


> How would you consider a AF who destroys its AC without putting them the into battle ( even in a near loose situation) when the integrity of the nation was at stake ? Were the pilots fearful of their lives or did the PAF run out of ATF ?
> 
> I feel that raising issues like is thread is out of place after so many yrs, but now that we are discussing it I am curious to know the thoughts of the PAF then. I can accept rotary wing assets flying into Burma as they may not have contributed to delaying the fall of Dhaka, but fighters being destroyed by the PAF amounts to surrender before Niazi did. If the fighters could not be flown to Burma, & were to be destroyed, why not go down in battle ?
> 
> ... & still the PAF ' won' the air war ?


no offense, but I don't think you understand what he was trying to say. PAF destroyed their aircraft so the enemy could not get their hands on it. If they destroyed 11 out of 16 aircraft by themselves, which means they were able to keep that much aircraft against everything the IAF had. that clearly shows something.

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## third eye

asaad-ul-islam said:


> no offense, but I don't think you understand what he was trying to say. PAF destroyed their aircraft so the enemy could not get their hands on it. If they destroyed 11 out of 16 aircraft by themselves, which means they were able to keep that much aircraft against everything the IAF had. that clearly shows something.



C'mon...

My primary Q remains..if the PAF intended to destroy these AC, why not loose them in battle ? Were the pilots scared to loose their lives ? What was stopping them from taking at least one IAF Ac with them or knocking off a vital target as they went down ?

What was the point of 'saving' assets the Pak nation had entrusted to the PAF to save the Pak nation.. only to destroy them on the ground ?

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## asaad-ul-islam

Vinod2070 said:


> I was expecting a more vigorous defense than this. Something beyond that 1965 BBC interview video, beyond General Chuck Yeager's comments and beyond a comment by some supposed USAF general to someone's uncle that Sargodha is the best air force training institute in the world (surprisingly no one mentioned it here).
> 
> I thought this is easier than the Kashmir issue.
> 
> Anything that India and Pakistan touch becomes intractable it seems!


and what do you have to offer besides Bharat-Rakshak, which magically becomes a reliable source? honestly, I don't see the point of this discussion at all, there's no clear evidence. we can just work with whatever we have.

1965 BBC interview clearly shows us indian claims being trashed, while the USAF air chief's comments pretty much say Sargodha is the best. I don't get how you can just discredit that, this isn't a science where we need people with degrees in DogFight-ology or a PhD in Air Combat. 

it's one man's word against the other, and obviously we would rather stick with the USAF on this one. do you have any pro-indian claims made by the Soviets, you can check their records?


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## asaad-ul-islam

third eye said:


> C'mon...
> 
> My primary Q remains..if the PAF intended to destroy these AC, why not loose them in battle ? Were the pilots scared to loose their lives ? What was stopping them from taking at least one IAF Ac with them or knocking off a vital target as they went down ?
> 
> What was the point of 'saving' assets the Pak nation had entrusted to the PAF to save the Pak nation.. only to destroy them on the ground ?


have you bothered researching into the matter yourself? the runway was bombed to oblivion!!! chances for martyrdom ran out when the runway was bombed, many times over.


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## EagleEyes

third eye said:


> C'mon...
> 
> My primary Q remains..if the PAF intended to destroy these AC, why not loose them in battle ? Were the pilots scared to loose their lives ? What was stopping them from taking at least one IAF Ac with them or knocking off a vital target as they went down ?
> 
> What was the point of 'saving' assets the Pak nation had entrusted to the PAF to save the Pak nation.. only to destroy them on the ground ?



LOL! So your going to come up here with bunch of assumptions put together and debate with us? 

Also, your going to look at the pictures and make assumptions and sarcastic comments about it.. while the pilots who fought it and cleared the skies add no value??


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## third eye

WebMaster said:


> LOL! So your going to come up here with bunch of assumptions put together and debate with us?



There are no assumptions, only Questions..

The only ans I have go so far is Group photographs.


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## EagleEyes

third eye said:


> There are no assumptions, only Questions..
> 
> The only ans I have go so far is Group photographs.



Well you clearly have no clue or neither do you bother to read the thread itself.. or better go on Bharat-Rakshak (d-doss?) to get a better excuses?


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## third eye

Forget it...I hav got my ans. Don't want to embarass anyone anymore.

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## Vinod2070

WebMaster said:


> PAF did, and IAF couldn't do. The ratio of air battles won by PAF is too much compared to the IAF. Its not even worth discussing. *This thread is started by someone who is confused about his air force when he heard from somebody from the other side who FOUGHT it.*



Why doesn't anyone remove the confusion with some solid facts in support of the assertions that the PAF won? Why not explain the points raised in the article? Why not explain what the PAF achieved for their country in the war?

Why not explain why Bhutto castigated the PAF in 1971 and the individual officers by name for their efforts (or the lack of them).

It should be easy enough to demolish the premise of this thread with some relevant facts!


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## Vinod2070

asaad-ul-islam said:


> and what do you have to offer besides Bharat-Rakshak, which magically becomes a reliable source? honestly, I don't see the point of this discussion at all, there's no clear evidence. we can just work with whatever we have.
> 
> 1965 BBC interview clearly shows us indian claims being trashed, while the USAF air chief's comments pretty much say Sargodha is the best. I don't get how you can just discredit that, this isn't a science where we need people with degrees in DogFight-ology or a PhD in Air Combat.
> 
> it's one man's word against the other, and obviously we would rather stick with the USAF on this one. do you have any pro-indian claims made by the Soviets, you can check their records?



The 1965 interview shows a bunch of young pilots bragging in front of a camera! That's about it.

The source was not Bharat Rakshak, if you bothered to click on the link. Again it is Pakistanis who make the claim of winning the air war in 1971. The primary burden of proof is on them.

I have shared sufficient data (and not mere individual opinions of some opinionated person) that show that the IAF achieved it's objectives and some more.


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## asaad-ul-islam

Vinod2070 said:


> The 1965 interview shows a bunch of young pilots bragging in front of a camera! That's about it.
> I believe the british reporter mentions the indian claims of shooting some of those pilots down. The PAF pilot's response was rightly arrogant, seeing how he was still standing.
> 
> The source was not Bharat Rakshak, if you bothered to click on the link. Again it is Pakistanis who make the claim of winning the air war in 1971. The primary burden of proof is on them.
> 
> I have shared sufficient data (and not mere individual opinions of some opinionated person) that show that the IAF achieved it's objectives and some more.


written, of course, "*By Indranil Banerjie, Rupak Chattopadhyay and Air Marshal (Retired) C.V.Gole*"

"*By the end of the first week of the war, PAF fighters in the West appeared to have lost their will to fight. By this time, the IAF was repeatedly hitting secondary targets including railway yards, cantonments, bridges and other installations as well as providing close air support to the Army wherever it was required.* *(My note: Duh? both sides struck at type of targets mentioned above)* The most dangerous were the close air support missions which involved flying low and exposing aircraft to intense ground fire. The IAF lost the most aircraft on these missions as is proved by the high losses suffered by IAF Sukhoi-7 and Hunter squadrons. But their pilots flew sortie after sortie keeping up with the Army and disrupting enemy troop and tank concentrations. 

*Once it was known that the Indian Army was knocking at the gates of Dhaka, the PAF in the West virtually gave up flying. *During the last few days of the war, the IAF brass ordered attacks on PAF airfields with the sole purpose of drawing out their aircraft. But that rarely succeeded as the PAF aircraft for the most part remained secured inside their pens, refusing to come out and fight. The strongest indictment of the Pakistani Air Force was made not by an Indian but by the Pakistani leader, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who took over from General Yahya Yahya Khan after the 1971 defeat. On taking over, he made a speech in which he castigated the PAF chief Air Marshal Rahim Khan and several other officers by name." 
^^^looking at the part in bold for the paragraph above, it seems Chuck Yeager's words were not as ridiculous as we thought. seriously, Vinod, if this is your idea of a joke, I suggest you stop wasting our time. do not make me post more than I have to, I already have enough to deal with. when I first came, I wasted time arguing with indians. now, I waste time arguing with "jahel" or ignorant Pakistanis about democracy and the economy. I can't keep doing this yaar!


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## Vinod2070

asaad-ul-islam said:


> written, of course, "*By Indranil Banerjie, Rupak Chattopadhyay and Air Marshal (Retired) C.V.Gole*"
> 
> "*By the end of the first week of the war, PAF fighters in the West appeared to have lost their will to fight. By this time, the IAF was repeatedly hitting secondary targets including railway yards, cantonments, bridges and other installations as well as providing close air support to the Army wherever it was required.* *(My note: Duh? both sides struck at type of targets mentioned above)* The most dangerous were the close air support missions which involved flying low and exposing aircraft to intense ground fire. The IAF lost the most aircraft on these missions as is proved by the high losses suffered by IAF Sukhoi-7 and Hunter squadrons. But their pilots flew sortie after sortie keeping up with the Army and disrupting enemy troop and tank concentrations.
> 
> *Once it was known that the Indian Army was knocking at the gates of Dhaka, the PAF in the West virtually gave up flying. *During the last few days of the war, the IAF brass ordered attacks on PAF airfields with the sole purpose of drawing out their aircraft. But that rarely succeeded as the PAF aircraft for the most part remained secured inside their pens, refusing to come out and fight. The strongest indictment of the Pakistani Air Force was made not by an Indian but by the Pakistani leader, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who took over from General Yahya Yahya Khan after the 1971 defeat. On taking over, he made a speech in which he castigated the PAF chief Air Marshal Rahim Khan and several other officers by name."
> ^^^looking at the part in bold for the paragraph above, it seems Chuck Yeager's words were not as ridiculous as we thought. seriously, Vinod, if this is your idea of a joke, I suggest you stop wasting our time. do not make me post more than I have to, I already have enough to deal with. *when I first came, I wasted time arguing with indians. now, I waste time arguing with "jahel" or ignorant Pakistanis about democracy and the economy. I can't keep doing this yaar!*



That is of course your choice. You may chose not to engage in debates with the _Indians_ or the "Jahel" or ignorant Pakistanis.

I never tried to hide that it is an Indian source. If you look at the article it is pretty objective. It does not go with the Indian claims of the kills nor the Pakistani numbers. It tends to rely on facts rather than opinions, goes into a detailed discussions of the objectives of the two sides etc. It goes beyond the numbers and that is what is required in any serious debate.

It was just a starting point for a discussion. People are open to come up with something better. I am no expert, merely an enthusiast.


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## Muradk

third eye said:


> There are no assumptions, only Questions..
> 
> The only ans I have go so far is Group photographs.



Normally I am a cool minded guy don't get angry but there is so much a person can take specially when it comes to PAF. NO one is more dear to me than PAF if I can ground and suspend my own son for something he did , How can I sit on a forum a listen to all the arguments made against PAF.

To tell you the truth you will not like my answers if I give you . so forget it I am not going into that at all.

I will just give you a small example we were 3 F-86 vs 4 Gnats 2 of us shot the plane all 3 of us saw it going down but it went inside India during that one of our guys go shot down ( God bless all there souls).
When we came back we developed the film and yes the bullets hit the Gnat now we had a problem claiming it by the evidence we had and what we saw we got 2 planes, and IAF got 1 of us but the very next day in the Indian news it came that 4 Gnats shot 3 sabers. Now tell me at that time what could I or my course mates do. Same thing happend on our side they said we shot 3 planes and lost 1, A lot of things were written wrong to keep the people strong and you will agree to this point . The difference between 1965 and 1971 war was that 71 war to fast and yes I admit that both side have kept things under the blanket since the war but the truth is that what our guys and the Americans gathered info is what we have and according to several agencies we did have a 3 to 1 ratio. Now if you look at the numbers of plane in the inventory of IAF no one has a correct number no one and this info was given to me by one of my Indian cousemates in USA , but we being a smaller air force it was very visible how many planes we got f-86s from USA and Iran plus F-5s ( which did not take part in the war the dame planes didn't have ejection seat cartridges in them ). Now after the war we could tell that these are the numbers we have on ground but when the same question was asked to IAF they gave us a figure which would suggest that either they had fighters 7 times more than PAF or they are not giving us the right number because if they had so many planes they would have run us over in 1 day. Another thing 3 of our pilots who got shot are not even mentioned in the books and in am 100&#37; sure IAF had done the same they just didn't mention. Remember I told you your minister got shot in a helicopter we have 7FF and 4 of us as witnesses that it was shot down by IAF by accident that chapter doesn't even exist in your books and vise versa.
So my friend I might be retired but I can't just open my mouth and give out info just like that If one day PAF decides to declassify its there choice but what I have seen and what I had done and what I have read I am talking about classified we did have greater ratio of kills. Do you think PAF was happy when East had to surrender the war was over if we had a 1000 planes we couldn't have stopped the separation it was inevitable.
We can go round and round with this topic but the out come will never be right from your point as a Indian and my point as a Pakistani.

And yes we did take photos during the war and why not 15 plus pilots of PAF against 110 fighters and bombers of IAF do you think that is a jock. We all talk about war who won and who lost if you would have been in my place you will never right the word War why? Its very hard to pick up pieces of your brother and put the in a bucket. Human body is mostly water and at the speed you crash most of the stuff turns to liquid.

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## fatman17

^^^I have been reading this thread very patiently at the "silliness" which is going around. like Vinod, I am a enthusiast and have done some research on my own (from available data, both indian, pakistani and others) but i will not post it (because each side indian and pakistani are taking extreme positions) and therefore there isnt any objectivity in this excercise.
All i know is that PAF held their own in the west, the PAF was over-matched in the east, and if the war prolonged any further than it did, IMO the PAF would have struggled. no one won the air war because it was not decisive. only the land war in the east was. end of the bloody story.

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## x_man

Very well said Sir Murad K



third eye said:


> Forget it...I hav got my ans.



I dont think you will ever get one from either side...

Whatever the figures were, reality is that it was a very small airforce pitched against a very large airforce. While we compare numbers ( that are made up from the sources from both sides) , they never show the real pictureDespite robust in her sheer size, IAF was never able to achieve Air Superiority , let alone the Air Supremacy.While they did achieve Favourable Air Situation in limited sectors, but thats wasnt what they were looking for...

Anyways, while the people at front fought their hearts out, it was the leadership at the moment that put all their feats under the carpet rest is all history

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## melb4aust

Muradk said:


> Normally I am a cool minded guy don't get angry but there is so much a person can take specially when it comes to PAF. NO one is more dear to me than PAF if I can ground and suspend my own son for something he did , How can I sit on a forum a listen to all the arguments made against PAF.
> 
> To tell you the truth you will not like my answers if I give you . so forget it I am not going into that at all.



you Dont need to say anything SIR, let them think what they wanna think.......let them believe what they wanna believe. I believe what u said and hope all others will repect those matters of confidentiality and the things u cannot state or disclose here.

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## Vinod2070

fatman17 said:


> ^^^I have been reading this thread very patiently at the "silliness" which is going around. like Vinod, I am a enthusiast and have done some research on my own (from available data, both indian, pakistani and others) but i will not post it (because each side indian and pakistani are taking extreme positions) and therefore there isnt any objectivity in this excercise.
> All i know is that PAF held their own in the west, the PAF was over-matched in the east, and if the war prolonged any further than it did, IMO the PAF would have struggled. no one won the air war because it was not decisive. only the land war in the east was. end of the bloody story.



Probably an assessment that is closer to the truth.

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## third eye

Muradk said:


> Normally I am a cool minded guy don't get angry but there is so much a person can take specially when it comes to PAF. NO one is more dear to me than PAF if I can ground and suspend my own son for something he did , How can I sit on a forum a listen to all the arguments made against PAF.
> 
> To tell you the truth you will not like my answers if I give you . so forget it I am not going into that at all.
> 
> I will just give you a small example we were 3 F-86 vs 4 Gnats 2 of us shot the plane all 3 of us saw it going down but it went inside India during that one of our guys go shot down ( God bless all there souls).
> When we came back we developed the film and yes the bullets hit the Gnat now we had a problem claiming it by the evidence we had and what we saw we got 2 planes, and IAF got 1 of us but the very next day in the Indian news it came that 4 Gnats shot 3 sabers. Now tell me at that time what could I or my course mates do. Same thing happend on our side they said we shot 3 planes and lost 1, A lot of things were written wrong to keep the people strong and you will agree to this point . The difference between 1965 and 1971 war was that 71 war to fast and yes I admit that both side have kept things under the blanket since the war but the truth is that what our guys and the Americans gathered info is what we have and according to several agencies we did have a 3 to 1 ratio. Now if you look at the numbers of plane in the inventory of IAF no one has a correct number no one and this info was given to me by one of my Indian cousemates in USA , but we being a smaller air force it was very visible how many planes we got f-86s from USA and Iran plus F-5s ( which did not take part in the war the dame planes didn't have ejection seat cartridges in them ). Now after the war we could tell that these are the numbers we have on ground but when the same question was asked to IAF they gave us a figure which would suggest that either they had fighters 7 times more than PAF or they are not giving us the right number because if they had so many planes they would have run us over in 1 day. Another thing 3 of our pilots who got shot are not even mentioned in the books and in am 100&#37; sure IAF had done the same they just didn't mention. Remember I told you your minister got shot in a helicopter we have 7FF and 4 of us as witnesses that it was shot down by IAF by accident that chapter doesn't even exist in your books and vise versa.
> So my friend I might be retired but I can't just open my mouth and give out info just like that If one day PAF decides to declassify its there choice but what I have seen and what I had done and what I have read I am talking about classified we did have greater ratio of kills. Do you think PAF was happy when East had to surrender the war was over if we had a 1000 planes we couldn't have stopped the separation it was inevitable.
> *We can go round and round with this topic but the out come will never be right from your point as a Indian and my point as a Pakistani.*
> 
> And yes we did take photos during the war and why not 15 plus pilots of PAF against 110 fighters and bombers of IAF do you think that is a jock. We all talk about war who won and who lost if you would have been in my place you will never right the word War why? Its very hard to pick up pieces of your brother and put the in a bucket. Human body is mostly water and at the speed you crash most of the stuff turns to liquid.



The highlighted portions sums it all.

I too find it diff to absorb the loose remarks made here. But it is quite natural given the levels of distrust & animosity that exists amongst us. One need not take these to heart, we all love our Services & Regiments like our children or the schools we studied in. Any slur on it is fiercely challenged simply coz we have all ' been thru the mill".

I could cite numerous examples of false reporting , both during hostilities & peace time on part of Pak. But then I feel " he too is doing his job'.

Even though I sometimes succumb to the temptation of replying back in the same coin, somewhere down the line we simply need to smile & let things pass.

If still not happy.. simply agree to disagree & move on.

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## melb4aust

Vinod2070 said:


> Probably an assessment that is closer to the truth.



yes an assesment that shouldnt just conclude the facts based on quantity(level of resources available for PAF at that time) but also their courage, skills, training, will-power, bravery and enthusiasm as well as the achievements they made in such hard circuimstances and conditions fighting for their country. thanks


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## Vinod2070

None of what you mention is an exclusive Pakistani preserve!

That thinking is what has led to so many blunders earlier and that is the reason that led to this thread being opened.


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## melb4aust

Dont get me wrong here. i could say the same to you

Besides it was you who started this thread, probably the same reason as per u suggested "Exclusive Indian Preserve" and thats why this thread being here at first place.


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## Windjammer

Here is a break down of IAF losses in the Western front, these do not include any Indian aircraft destroyed on the ground.

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## chindit

I count 40+ air to air claims by Pakistanis. an exaggeration of 3:1. Take for example the claim of three Hunters on Dec 5 by Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar and his wingman. This claim does not even get a mention in the recent articles published by well known pakistani writers - Kaiser tufail, usman shabbir etc

and that claim of two su-7s by wing cdr hashmi - the second sukhoi is actually his own wingman! - refer to recent article F-6 at war


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## Windjammer

chindit said:


> I count 40+ air to air claims by Pakistanis. an exaggeration of 3:1. Take for example the claim of three Hunters on Dec 5 by Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar and his wingman. This claim does not even get a mention in the recent articles published by well known pakistani writers - Kaiser tufail, usman shabbir etc
> 
> and that claim of two su-7s by wing cdr hashmi - the second sukhoi is actually his own wingman! - refer to recent article F-6 at war



Although posted elsewhere, but for your enlightenment, i am posting again the official version written by a Western Historian soon after the war.

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## Windjammer

Apart from the details in the article, it later became apparent that the IAF lost more aircraft on the ground due to PAF raids then initial claims.
Similarly, the IAF admitted to the loss of only a single MIG-21 in air combat while PAF had recorded and claimed two aerial victories against the MIGs, however subsequent scrutinization proved that the IAF actually lost three such aircraft in air dog fights, two of them to the humble F-86s while another was taken out by an F-6 (MIG-19).


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## Goodperson

Windjammer said:


> Apart from the details in the article, it later became apparent that the IAF lost more aircraft on the ground due to PAF raids then initial claims.
> Similarly, the IAF admitted to the loss of only a single MIG-21 in air combat while PAF had recorded and claimed two aerial victories against the MIGs, however subsequent scrutinization proved that the IAF actually lost three such aircraft in air dog fights, two of them to the humble F-86s while another was taken out by an F-6 (MIG-19).



Even if one believes your statement is true then you have just won the battle but do think who won the war.


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## RiazHaq

While outwardly claiming to dismiss Pakistan as a defeated and failed state, the Indians continue to show by their actions that they are paranoid about their much smaller neighbor to the West by maintaining most of their troops close to the border with Pakistan.

For example, twenty four of the thirty three Indian infantry divisions are near Pakistan's borders. All three of India's armored divisions are poised against Pakistan. All three of India's mechanized divisions are positioned on Pakistani borders.

If Indians have such an impeccable record of successes against Pakistan in past wars as they claim, why is it that, in practice, they are so fearful of their little neighbor? Why are they planning to increase defense spending by 50% to spend $40 billion, 33% more than the entire 2009-10 Pakistani budget of $30 billion, on defense in 2009-10? Could it be that, in their heart of hearts, they really do not believe their own propaganda and their claims of victory over Pakistan are really hollow?

Haq's Musings: Demolishing Indian War Myths about Pakistan


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## Windjammer

Goodperson said:


> Even if one believes your statement is true then you have just won the battle but do think who won the war.



Firstly those are not my personal statements,

And in hindsight, if you had kept a record of BSF bodybags returning from Bangladesh border, you probably wouldn't need to raise the question.


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## chindit

Windjammer said:


> Although posted elsewhere, but for your enlightenment, i am posting again the official version written by a Western Historian soon after the war.
> [/IMG]



Aha! which western historian are we talking about?

A quick search on google brings up the name of the author of the article "Post Mortem of an Air War" and it is none other than 

Mr. John Fricker

Official PAF historian who also wrote the 65 battle for pak book.

And why exactly are those scans censored?are you hiding some information there that you dont want to share with us?


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## chindit

> Apart from the details in the article, it later became apparent that the IAF lost more aircraft on the ground due to PAF raids then initial claims.



Really how? Back that up with any sources?




> Similarly, the IAF admitted to the loss of only a single MIG-21 in air combat while PAF had recorded and claimed two aerial victories against the MIGs, however subsequent scrutinization proved that the IAF actually lost three such aircraft in air dog fights, two of them to the humble F-86s while another was taken out by an F-6 (MIG-19).



recommended reading Aeronaut: F-6s at War 
Aeronaut: Mirages at War
time to update history with articles published in 2009 than from 1972 (which will be propaganda bits)


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## Windjammer

chindit said:


> Aha! which western historian are we talking about?
> 
> A quick search on google brings up the name of the author of the article "Post Mortem of an Air War" and it is none other than
> 
> Mr. John Fricker
> 
> Official PAF historian who also wrote the 65 battle for pak book.
> 
> And why exactly are those scans censored?are you hiding some information there that you dont want to share with us?


For that time, I would say any third party was more credible than a home grown crops like P.S. Chopra, and what's this nonsense about scan censor, surely you don't assume that I have the originals in my possession.


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## chindit

Windjammer said:


> For that time, I would say any third party was more credible than a home grown crops like P.S. Chopra, and



Oh John Fricker is a neutral unbiased source? The only people who think so are pakistanis Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Battle for Pakistan: The Air War of 1965



Windjammer said:


> what's this nonsense about scan censor, surely you don't assume that I have the originals in my possession.


Then post the originals. you censored the authors name - who were you trying to fool. what are the other parts that were "whited out" - what do they say? I refer to the large block of whited out portion and another in the mirage photo caption. does it have something you dont want us to read?


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## chindit

and read the article from Kaiser Tufail



> On the afternoon of 8 December, two patrolling F-6s of No 23 Squadron flown by Wg Cdr S M H Hashmi and Flt Lt Afzal Jamal Siddiqui were vectored on to two Su-7s, just as they were exiting after attacking Risalewala airfield. Hashmi caught up with one of the pair, about ten miles east of the airfield, and let off a Sidewinder. The missile homed on unmistakably and the Su-7 exploded above the tree-tops; the pilot was not seen to eject. The remains of Flt Lt Ramesh Gulabrao Kadam [7] were later discovered around the wreckage near the small town of Khalsapur. Hashmi immediately started looking for the other Su-7 and, to be sure of his No 2s safety, called out for his position. Afzal replied but the transmission was garbled, which Hashmi interpreted as his No 2 being visual with him and, assumed that he was somewhere in the rear quarters. Just then Hashmi picked contact with the second aircraft and did not think twice before launching a missile. If there was any difference between the similar-looking planforms of the Su-7 and F-6, this was surely one time to have had a closer look. His No 2 was nowhere in sight and his frantic unanswered calls to Afzal seemed to confirm Hashmis worst fear. Had he mixed up his quarry in the murky winter haze? Afzal, who was chasing the second Su-7 at high speed and had ended up ahead of his leader, was not able to clearly convey his position on a broken radio. Hashmi, an otherwise unflappable squadron commander, should have known better, for he had been too eager for a second kill which unfortunately ended up as a horrific fatality for his wingman. [8]



PaF pilots shoots down wingman - and John Fricker claims it as a second Sukhoi


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## Windjammer

chindit said:


> Really how? Back that up with any sources?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> recommended reading Aeronaut: F-6s at War
> Aeronaut: Mirages at War
> time to update history with articles published in 2009 than from 1972 (which will be propaganda bits)


I suggest you read, "My days with the IAF", by ACM P.C. LAL, who commanded the IAF during the 1971 war.
Oh, and one other source, Flt. Lt. Harish Sinhji, a Sirsa based MIG-21 pilot taken POW after being shot down over Pakistan. Apart from other information, he disclosed how one night of PAF bombing hit the hangers causing destruction of many aircrafts and over 200 casualties. Sometimes reading between the lines also helps as reading the following interesting chapter proves.


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## rajeev

RiazHaq said:


> While outwardly claiming to dismiss Pakistan as a defeated and failed state, the Indians continue to show by their actions that they are paranoid about their much smaller neighbor to the West by maintaining most of their troops close to the border with Pakistan.
> 
> For example, twenty four of the thirty three Indian infantry divisions are near Pakistan's borders. All three of India's armored divisions are poised against Pakistan. All three of India's mechanized divisions are positioned on Pakistani borders.
> 
> If Indians have such an impeccable record of successes against Pakistan in past wars as they claim, why is it that, in practice, they are so fearful of their little neighbor? Why are they planning to increase defense spending by 50&#37; to spend $40 billion, 33% more than the entire 2009-10 Pakistani budget of $30 billion, on defense in 2009-10? Could it be that, in their heart of hearts, they really do not believe their own propaganda and their claims of victory over Pakistan are really hollow?
> 
> Haq's Musings: Demolishing Indian War Myths about Pakistan



Does your words make any sense to you - I am really wondering! Pakistan is just annoying kid on the block as far as India is concerned.

Just read through the statements from IAF Chief, IA Chief and IN Chief, you would hear only things loud and clear- India is balancing its strength with China. 

Even for defense arrangements, look at how India positioned its planes. It kept all its superior planes Su-30 MKI's towards Chinese borders and only used way older Mig-29K's towards Pakistani border. Doesnt that give you a projection of what India thinks of Pakistani airpower.

In case of army formations, India has most army men standing on Pakistani border because it is from where we have attacked multiple times and it is single source of terrorist infilitration at the moment. We are even using barb wires on the border to slow PA's "moral" efforts.

And lets look at Pakistani reaction. India's overwhelming coventional superiority makes PA Chief and its politicians claim they will launch nuclear bombs if they are attacked. i.e. they feel they are basically defenseless.

Let see the economy size

US = 14 trillion
India = 1.2 trillion ie. US is about 11x times India's economy

India = 1.2 trillion
Pakistan = 170 billion ie. India is 7x times Pakistan's economy.

So, it would appear to you that India is as big to Pakistan compared to US is to India. Now, realistically, how many Indians think India can do anything against US. Nil, right? Let thinks how many Pakistanis think they can come to Panipat even while exploding bombs in Mumbai and Parlimanent. A significant minority, right?

Do you see - inability to see reality clouds the judgement. Other than watching propoganda is it so much depressing to acknowledge what is going in the world. When your Santa and Banta story is over (Amar Singh and Ram Singh of Orange Band who speak Marathi from Hyderabadi Mujahadeen), probably that is when you would see light in Pakistan.

India is on its way to second largest economy by 2050 - an economic giant of 37 trillion - a mere 2.5% budget would be close to 1 trillion in defence budget. Which competition or what competition are talking about w.r.t to Pakistan. India's only competitor in the region is China. 

Regarding the war battles, it is funny that Windjammer's evidence is from PAF's historian and reads like a tale book. 

Read through wide sources of information. That should help you broaden your understanding of the war. 

India's air superiority was proven in Eastern theater even by Pakistanis. In the western theater, after the initial losses, Pakistan moved to a defensive force whereas Indian were taking over Pakistani airspace.

Unless the claim is PAF will choose only certain battles for measurements because only that suits does not make sense to me. The end result was the objective acheived. 

India was able to break Pakistan into two. Ninty thousand prisoners was a record in itself. It was the largest capture of army so much said for super human Pakistan (ie. 10x times strength than Kafir).


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## Windjammer

chindit said:


> Oh John Fricker is a neutral unbiased source? The only people who think so are pakistanis Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Battle for Pakistan: The Air War of 1965
> 
> 
> Then post the originals. you censored the authors name - who were you trying to fool. what are the other parts that were "whited out" - what do they say? I refer to the large block of whited out portion and another in the mirage photo caption. does it have something you dont want us to read?


Are you off your rocker, almost 40 years on why would anyone want to chalk out the authors name, specially after he is dead. ????

A name in the F-6 chapter rings a bell, let's see if i can trace it.

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## chindit

Windjammer said:


> I suggest you read, "My days with the IAF", by ACM P.C. LAL, who commanded the IAF during the 1971 war.



I have my own copy - thank you. No where does he mentioned that PAF destroyed "many aircraft" or even a "few aircraft" in the intial raids.



Windjammer said:


> Oh, and one other source, Flt. Lt. Harish Sinhji, a Sirsa based MIG-21 pilot taken POW after being shot down over Pakistan. Apart from other information, he disclosed how one night of PAF bombing hit the hangers causing destruction of many aircrafts and over 200 casualties. Sometimes reading between the lines also helps as reading the following interesting chapter proves.



"some other source" - state the source and the exact quote please. otherwise you are just making up things about *"destruction of many aircrafts and over 200 casualties"*


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## chindit

Windjammer said:


> Are you off your rocker, almost 40 years on why would anyone want to chalk out the authors name, specially after he is dead. ????



You tell me. Your scans clearly have several sections "whited out". go back and refer to them again.

You clearly failed to mention the author name in your first post, and the author name is blanked out in the scans. So you know why you wanted to do that. why are you askin gme?


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## Windjammer

chindit said:


> I have my own copy - thank you. No where does he mentioned that PAF destroyed "many aircraft" or even a "few aircraft" in the intial raids.
> 
> 
> 
> "some other source" - state the source and the exact quote please. otherwise you are just making up things about *"destruction of many aircrafts and over 200 casualties"*


On pages, 249, 256, 271, 283, 286, 287 and 291 he gives a good indication of what's it like to be on the receiving end.
Your problem is since you can't digest what i have posted, hence you are merely digressing. Secondly just by denying all, you your self haven't proved zulch lest for me to clarify anything.


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## Windjammer

chindit said:


> You tell me. Your scans clearly have several sections "whited out". go back and refer to them again.
> 
> You clearly failed to mention the author name in your first post, and the author name is blanked out in the scans. So you know why you wanted to do that. why are you askin gme?



Stop beating about the bush, and find some tangible reason to rant.
As stated earlier, i don't even posses the original article, hence how can you blank out something which appears on your e-mail.

I have yet to see any Indian version to deny these claims.

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## chindit

Windjammer said:


> On pages, 249, 256, 271, 283, 286, 287 and 291 he gives a good indication of what's it like to be on the receiving end.
> Your problem is since you can't digest what i have posted, hence you are merely digressing. Secondly just by denying all, you your self haven't proved zulch lest for me to clarify anything.



All he wrote about are craters on runways and ineffective bombing. at one place he states that an electric connection ws severed and airfield operated using generator. 

So its very interesting how you twist his words. NO WHERE does he mention xx aircraft was destroyed in this bombing or in this strafing in the PAF early strikes. But you claimed otherwise in your post.


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## chindit

Windjammer said:


> Stop beating about the bush, and find some tangible reason to rant.
> As stated earlier, i don't even posses the original article, .



Okay I misread your earlier post.



> surely you don't assume that I have the originals in my possession.



Ask the person who sent you the email what was censored out.


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## chindit

From Pakdef http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/1971war/warinwest.html



> Over the years, however, factual accounts of the damage inflicted continued to be received from different sources. The most authentic comments emanate from the 1971 Indian Air Force chief himself, who would hardly be inclined to exaggerate the PAF&#8217;s performance.
> 
> 
> Halwara
> "The B-57 dropped 8 bombs, 3 of which landed on the runway, making two major craters . . ." (p.249)
> 
> Amritsar
> &#8220;The attack . . . started with a visit by four Mirages. But the damage, surprisingly and luckily, was not much. There was no warning at all . . . And then it started, an attack a minute . . . They made 4 to 5 craters from the beginning of the runway to about 600 meters . . . Within the hour the runway was repaired. But the AOC-in-C Western Air Command decided that the attack (against Pakistani airfields that night, originally planed to be launched from Amritsar) should be launched from Adampur&#8221;. At 10:10 pm that night &#8211; five hours after the Mirage attack - there was just &#8220;. . . one lane of runway serviceable (when 2 Su-7 pilots) took off in their Sukhois. Immediately after that a PAF B-57 came and dropped bombs.&#8221; (p.256)
> 
> Pathankot
> &#8220;When the runway at Pathankot was bombed by Mirages and needed prompt repair, CAPs were flown from Adampur so the job could be quickly done.&#8221;
> 
> Sirsa
> &#8220;The PAF B-57&#8217;s bombing . . . was enough to make the runway unserviceable for the night . . . The bombs had time-delayed fuses and kept on exploding at intervals till dawn, delaying clearance and repair work.&#8221;
> 
> Jaisalmer
> "One of the bombs hit the underground power cable . . . For the next six hours, Jaisalmer operated on its standby generator and was without telephone facility.&#8221;
> 
> Uttarlai
> &#8220;The runway was bombed thrice on the very first evening of the war&#8221; . . . (forcing the pilots to use the taxiway for take off and landing) . . . &#8220;That is how we operated for the first six days of war.&#8221;
> 
> Bhuj
> &#8220;. . . the PAF bombed it fairly accurately . . . The Air Force Commanding Officer found it difficult to get together enough labour to repair it.&#8221;
> All the preceding passages are from a narrative of events by Air Chief Marshal P C Lal, who commanded the IAF during the 1971 war, from his book &#8220;My Days with the IAF&#8221;. It bears stressing that all the above quoted bomb damage reports except the last one (Bhuj) have been positively identified from the book as relating to the first day of the PAF&#8217;s counter air campaign ie 3 December. It would be reasonable to assume that similar levels of damage continued to occur during the next thirteen days as well.
> 
> One other IAF source deserves mention here by way of a tribute to the PAF&#8217;s B-57 crews who valiantly faced the highest loss rate of the war, and persisted doggedly each night, despite their rudimentary bombs and aiming devices, in carrying the war deep into the enemy&#8217;s heartland. The narration comes from an Indian Mig-21 pilot taken prisoner after being shot down over Pakistan. Flight Lieutenant Harish Sinhji, who belonged to a Sirsa-based squadron, stated:
> 
> &#8220;After one of PAF&#8217;s night bombing strikes on our airfield, we were all grounded for six hours. The runway had been cratered in many places. The following morning our CO, Wing Commander V B Sawardekar, took us all to the runway to show us the Pakistani pilot&#8217;s bombing accuracy. Pointing to the craters on our runway he said &#8216;this is the kind of bombing accuracy the IAF pilots should achieve against Pakistani targets.&#8217;&#8217;




No mention about ANY aircraft being destroyed on the ground by the PAF. Even Harsignji mentions only runway.


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## Windjammer

How very arrogantly you have decided to ignore the two other topics,
What nothing to rant, no gloating. You can't convinently pick and choose. If you had a little knowledge on air war fare or you weren't as digressing, there is plenty in the material I have posted.
It so seems, you are just stuck in the dilemma of half empty or half full,
alas not what's there but what's missing. Hence you will always be going in circles.

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## FreekiN

You could have just said,

'It depends on the way you look at it India got the objectives done, and Pakistan did the most damage.'

End of story. lol.


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## chindit

Windjammer said:


> How very arrogantly you have decided to ignore the two other topics,
> What nothing to rant, no gloating. You can't convinently pick and choose. If you had a little knowledge on air war fare or you weren't as digressing, *there is plenty in the material I have posted.*
> It so seems, you are just stuck in the dilemma of half empty or half full,
> alas not what's there but what's missing. Hence you will always be going in circles.



What plenty of information? I asked you a specific thing about your two assertions and you failed on both counts.

I guess if you want to put on horse blinders and keep believing that the Initial Bombings "destroyed several indian aircraft" and that "come to attention that three migs were shot down in air combat" when there is absolutely NOTHING to support your wild assertions (PC Lal said so - he didnt, Harisingji said so - he didnt either) then I cant help anything man.

You are right, with the little knowledge i have, i can see a wild claim from far away. and so can others. you can make unsupported fancy claims all you want. But I will call you out on it everytime i see it


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## DavyJones

@Windjammer - most Indian planes shot down were Su-7s in ground support role .


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## Windjammer

FreekiN said:


> You could have just said,
> 
> 'It depends on the way you look at it India got the objectives done, and Pakistan did the most damage.'
> 
> End of story. lol.



Yaar, There is no medal table, nor am i trying to malign the 40 year old history. However every now and then you do encounter a nit pick, I am just a little occupied with the events back home. Regards.


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## Windjammer

DavyJones said:


> @Windjammer - most Indian planes shot down were Su-7s in ground support role .



DJ, the SU-7 quantity was only exceeded by the Hunters. which were deployed in a similar kind of role.


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## MadDog

*Indian Air Force kills in 1971 *
Air Aces Homepage

and* PAF kills in 1971*

Air Aces Homepage

Hope this helps.
Regards
This is the site if you guys want to check

Air Aces Homepage

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## ice_man

the answer to indians question lies in their reply to did IAF lose the air war in 1965?


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## Goodperson

ice_man said:


> the answer to indians question lies in their reply to did IAF lose the air war in 1965?



IAF did not loose in 1965 or 1971.


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## Windjammer

Redscorpion said:


> How can India lose in 71 . We made a new country out of pakistan ???
> 
> This is height of ignorance if pakistani believe they won the war . I have nothing against pakistani people , i am just making a point .



The subject is "Who won the Air War in 1971".?
Through conspiracy, BanglaDesh indeed gained independence,
90,000 odd including some 40,000 Military Personal became POW and against Geneva Convention, kept prisoners for several years.
However, did India won the air campaign, ?
The answer is a definitive ...... NO. !!!!


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## FreekiN

1971 Aerial Frags

India - 20
Pakistan - 52

Sauce: Air Aces


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## Hulk

The most funny part is some bagladeshi feels that they could have won the war on it's own.


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## chindit

Windjammer said:


> The subject is "Who won the Air War in 1971".?
> Through conspiracy, BanglaDesh indeed gained independence,
> 90,000 odd including some 40,000 Military Personal became POW and against Geneva Convention, kept prisoners for several years. !




Myth No.1 "Bangladesh gained independence through conspiracy"
Myth No.2 90000 odd pow had only 40000 POW
Myth No.2 Kept POW against Geneva Convention for years

these are classified myths because you dont substantiate the above with facts and references.


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## DavyJones

Soviet Union lost more tanks, men and aircraft than Germany. But who won the war ? Pakistan accepted that they lost the 1971 war to India. Learnt that they can't beat India in a war.
Pak went ahead to use Sikh and Kashmiri terrorists/freedom fighters to defeat India. They continue on such a policy even now. That's why the great apprehension that the US will force Pak abandon it's state sponsored freedom fighters/terrorists. They are pretty good at this game now. Use retired Army people to train terrorists (retd. Majors - does any career officer actually retire at that rank!) - then deny like hell when they are caught. Pakistan has made militancy, fighting using AKs/bombs etc. an industry. we Indians train people to become call centre employees - Pak trains them to become jihadis. Off course the government knows nothing about such things - it's a private enterprise now. Just like the Indian government knows nothing about the IT industry within it's borders.


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## Windjammer

chindit said:


> Myth No.1 "Bangladesh gained independence through conspiracy"
> Myth No.2 90000 odd pow had only 40000 POW
> Myth No.2 Kept POW against Geneva Convention for years
> 
> these are classified myths because you dont substantiate the above with facts and references.


There are no myths, this is history and realities of war, I.E,
Wonder where did the American 7th fleet disappeared to when it was suppose to arrive to rescue East Pakistan.
Mrs Gandhi is on record for saying, "Indian forces have entered East Pakistan in .... self defense !!?? How logic is that. ?
The figure of 90,000 POW is well documented but alas they weren't all military personal, you have to take into account other departments and utility service employs as well.
Geneva Convention requires that within 60 days of cease fire being signed, the POW should be returned to their respective countries.


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## Windjammer

DavyJones said:


> Soviet Union lost more tanks, men and aircraft than Germany. But who won the war ? Pakistan accepted that they lost the 1971 war to India. Learnt that they can't beat India in a war.
> Pak went ahead to use Sikh and Kashmiri terrorists/freedom fighters to defeat India. They continue on such a policy even now. That's why the great apprehension that the US will force Pak abandon it's state sponsored freedom fighters/terrorists. They are pretty good at this game now. Use retired Army people to train terrorists (retd. Majors - does any career officer actually retire at that rank!) - then deny like hell when they are caught. Pakistan has made militancy, fighting using AKs/bombs etc. an industry. we Indians train people to become call centre employees - Pak trains them to become jihadis. Off course the government knows nothing about such things - it's a private enterprise now. Just like the Indian government knows nothing about the IT industry within it's borders.


Having a Gift of the Gob doesn't change ground realities, oblivious to the absent minded that you are, and as stated earlier, the topic has nothing to do with the overall war but rather the Air War Scenario.
And for your digressing gloats, let me remind you that militancy and fanatics are embedded in your society in the form of RSS and Shiv Sena and not forgetting the serving Indian Army Colonel behind Samjota train bombing. We have heard all about your call centers and the Hindu priests doing rounds to remind workers there of their moral and family values. Your country's involvement in terrorism has been well exposed in SWAT and elsewhere. Ours are called Jihadis, what do you call your, Bharat Mahan. ??!!

Indians Fighting In Swat(Warning: Explicit & Disturbing Pictures) | Buzzvines.com | Blog of Pakistan | Pakistan | Pakistan News | Pakistan Government | Pakistan Politics | Pakistan Companies| Pakistan People | Pakistan Sports Home


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## DESERT FIGHTER

windjammer leave it.
Its like BHANSE KAY AGAY BEEN BAJANA,
Translation=its like playing flute infront of a buffalo.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

DavyJones said:


> Soviet Union lost more tanks, men and aircraft than Germany. But who won the war ? Pakistan accepted that they lost the 1971 war to India. Learnt that they can't beat India in a war.
> Pak went ahead to use Sikh and Kashmiri terrorists/freedom fighters to defeat India. They continue on such a policy even now. That's why the great apprehension that the US will force Pak abandon it's state sponsored freedom fighters/terrorists. They are pretty good at this game now. Use retired Army people to train terrorists (retd. Majors - does any career officer actually retire at that rank!) - then deny like hell when they are caught. Pakistan has made militancy, fighting using AKs/bombs etc. an industry. we Indians train people to become call centre employees - Pak trains them to become jihadis. Off course the government knows nothing about such things - it's a private enterprise now. Just like the Indian government knows nothing about the IT industry within it's borders.



Lol Pakistan learnt it can wreck a state of CHAOS and kill the germs of invinsibility in india remember 48? 65 ? and in 71 Did india DARE to fight us ONE ON ONE??hiding like COWARD .... behind CIVIL WAR?aided by ALL MIGHTY USSR ?
Still how many jets did india lose??and how many did we?Its called STRENGHT OF ARMS AND HEARTS not PROPOGANDA AND CIVIL WAR.
Pakistan trains JIHADIs and INDIAN ARMY trains safron terrorists and Burns TRAINS?attacks other countries ?Uses Bastard taliban by training and arming them to the teeth.
Active COLONELS and above of indian army CAUGHT?
Killing Several thousands of pakistani kashmiris by occupying lands not just from one country others also.
In asia no one likes zoinist indian state. Bengladesh?Nepal?China?burma?NO immediate bordering country of india LIKE IT.


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## DavyJones

@Windjammer - please live in your fool's paradise.
Which air force was dominating the skies at the end of the 1971 and had more than double the planes of the other air force. Suffice to say India won the Air war. No question.


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## Imran Khan

indianrabbit said:


> The most funny part is some bagladeshi feels that they could have won the war on it's own.



one of my co worker bangladeshi say to me.we win the war from pakistan with sticks and knifes 

i reply god bless india they forget india


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## Windjammer

DavyJones said:


> @Windjammer - please live in your fool's paradise.
> Which air force was dominating the skies at the end of the 1971 and had more than double the planes of the other air force. Suffice to say India won the Air war. No question.



Basically a nonsensical statement from some one oblivious to the introductory and ratio between the two air forces. India always had the numerical advantage with a ratio of 4:1. At the end of the war, Pakistan lost some 29 aircrafts mostly F-86 Sabers with 110 confirmed Indian losses. Even a wishful thinker like your self should be able to work out the equation. In the Western theater alone the Indian MOD admitted the loss of 54 pilots over Pakistan territory.


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## Naradmuni

> Who Won the Air War in 1971?



The one who Won the War in 1971

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## chindit

Windjammer said:


> 110 confirmed Indian losses. Even a wishful thinker like your self should be able to work out the equation. .




If you cant post any supporting references other than Pakistani books , there is no point - is there?


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## fatman17

chindit said:


> If you cant post any supporting references other than Pakistani books , there is no point - is there?



jingoism aside - if one checks the airforce records of inventories - IAF lost 68 a/c in 71 as compared to 40 PAF losses (which include 12 sabres self-destroyed at dacca plus 5 sabres lost on the ramp during a IAF attack on sargodha when re-fuelling) - PAF was able to 'deny' IAF air-superiority of the skies which was / is PAF doctrine at least at that time.

if u say u won the air-war then what can i say!

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## Windjammer

chindit said:


> If you cant post any supporting references other than Pakistani books , there is no point - is there?



And would you say, the Indian reference is the most neutral and credible source. ??

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## chindit

fatman17 said:


> jingoism aside - if one checks the airforce records of inventories - IAF lost 68 a/c in 71 as compared to 40 PAF losses (which include 12 sabres self-destroyed at dacca plus 5 sabres lost on the ramp during a IAF attack on sargodha when re-fuelling) - PAF was able to 'deny' IAF air-superiority of the skies which was / is PAF doctrine at least at that time.
> 
> if u say u won the air-war then what can i say!




IAF flew twice the number of sorties that the PAF did. dont you expect it to have more losses? Niazi is on record saying that it was the constant bombardment of the IAF that kept him awake and shattered his morale. Even the Governor resigned when his building was attacked. that is winning. Not hiding your aircraft in airfields and not coming in support of your army when it is needed.


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## fatman17

chindit said:


> IAF flew twice the number of sorties that the PAF did. dont you expect it to have more losses? Niazi is on record saying that it was the constant bombardment of the IAF that kept him awake and shattered his morale. Even the Governor resigned when his building was attacked. that is winning. Not hiding your aircraft in airfields and not coming in support of your army when it is needed.



aray chindit 10 IAF sqdns agaist 1 PAF sqdn - come on brother!


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## fatman17

Gen Chuck Yeager was US Air-Attache during that time - in his book he says that ' in the air the PAF kicked *** but the situation on the ground was different'

pls read the book!


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## notsuperstitious

Fatman sir, salaam,

What was PAF's objective? What was IAF's objective? Which side achieved the objective more effectively?

Isn't that how you decide who won a war?

In case of Vietnam war, the veitnamese lost many many times more soldiers than the US, but who won the war?

My sincere opinion.

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## zz5168

I am thinking that most of the arguments here are related to PAF and IAF battles but not stick to the title "who win the war".

Honestly India is the winner of the 1971 war because Eastern Pakistan was taken out from its own country. Any other arguments about shoot down/loss are not important compare to this result.

Also Pakistan friends should also be proud of your brave soilders. the lose is totally not their problem. I have to say the result of the war was predictable to a certain extent at the first day of war, from Geopolitics point of view:
1. India has US back up for a long time
2. India just signed coorperation with soviet Union before the war (SOV was against China during 1960s-1970s, in the China-India 1962 war SOV also surported india)
3. China was in the self 10year war "culture revolution". It could not support parkistan as in the 1965 war.

1971 was a good time chosen by India and they are the winner. From then on Eastern pakistan is not a threat to India.


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## dabloo

zz5168 said:


> I am thinking that most of the arguments here are related to PAF and IAF battles but not stick to the title "who win the war".
> 
> Honestly India is the winner of the 1971 war because Eastern Pakistan was taken out from its own country. Any other arguments about shoot down/loss are not important compare to this result.
> 
> Also Pakistan friends should also be proud of your brave soilders. the lose is totally not their problem. I have to say the result of the war was predictable to a certain extent at the first day of war, from Geopolitics point of view:
> 1. India has US back up for a long time
> 2. India just signed coorperation with soviet Union before the war (SOV was against China during 1960s-1970s, in the China-India 1962 war SOV also surported india)
> 3. China was in the self 10year war "culture revolution". It could not support parkistan as in the 1965 war.
> 
> 1971 was a good time chosen by India and they are the winner. From then on Eastern pakistan is not a threat to India.



Your post makes some sense.


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## Windjammer

chindit said:


> IAF flew twice the number of sorties that the PAF did. dont you expect it to have more losses? Niazi is on record saying that it was the constant bombardment of the IAF that kept him awake and shattered his morale. Even the Governor resigned when his building was attacked. that is winning. Not hiding your aircraft in airfields and not coming in support of your army when it is needed.



Possessing four times the number of aircraft and not even managing double the comparative sorties doesn't speak volumes for the IAF.
The balance in East Pakistan was 10:1 in India's favour, With ten Indian Squadrons of MIG-21s, SU-7s, Gnats and Hunters against a solitary vintage F-86 unit, it was a no win situation.
And please don't forget, the Squadron still had 11 aircrafts at it's disposal but the single runway was rendered nonoperational.


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## Nemesis

> Gen Chuck Yeager was US Air-Attache during that time - in his book he says that ' in the air the PAF kicked *** but the situation on the ground was different'



Chuck Yeager is hardly a neutral source. Please read the following article written by someone posted in the US embassy in Islamabad in 71. 

The right stuff in the wrong place - Chuck Yeager&#039;s crash landing in Pakistan | Washington Monthly | Find Articles at BNET

PS - The article is absolutely hilarious. Too bad it is too long to post here.

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## DavyJones

@Windjammer - please understand the basics of a war - It is not fought fair, one on one!
Pak was defending smaller territory than India. It was Pak strategy that defence of East lies in the West. Basing only 1 squadron in the East was a bad strategic decision. Just like Hitler telling Paulus to stay put in Stalingrad before the Russians encircled him. Pak paid for it's strategic mistakes and lost the 1971 war. Man-Man I have great respect for the Pak air force. They shot down many Indian ground attack air craft during the war which kinda makes the numbers a bit skewed. 
Did India lose more planes - maybe. Did it win the air war - definitely.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

I think hari sud and inc is 100 neutral?lets watch sahara tv.


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## FreekiN

FreekiN said:


> 1971 Aerial Frags
> 
> India - 20
> Pakistan - 52
> 
> Sauce: Air Aces



Umm. Maybe some of us should take a look at this again. Now let me find the excerpt I was reading where this was called 'complete air superiority.'


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## Windjammer

DavyJones said:


> @Windjammer - please understand the basics of a war - It is not fought fair, one on one!
> Pak was defending smaller territory than India. It was Pak strategy that defence of East lies in the West. Basing only 1 squadron in the East was a bad strategic decision. Just like Hitler telling Paulus to stay put in Stalingrad before the Russians encircled him. Pak paid for it's strategic mistakes and lost the 1971 war. Man-Man I have great respect for the Pak air force. They shot down many Indian ground attack air craft during the war which kinda makes the numbers a bit skewed.
> Did India lose more planes - maybe. Did it win the air war - definitely.


I can say with conviction that although India may have won the war but, they did loose the battle.


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## fatman17

one wins air superiority when NO repeat NO enemy a/c are able to fly in air defence roles - when the enemy air force is rendered in-operable.

only two recent examples come to mind.

67 arab-israeli war where the IDFAF completely destroyed the arab air forces on the ground. and...

Desert Storm 1&11. Iraqi AF destroyed on the ground.

now that's air superiority!!!

it never happened in 71.

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## fatman17

FreekiN said:


> Umm. Maybe some of us should take a look at this again. Now let me find the excerpt I was reading where this was called 'complete air superiority.'




india has admitted loss of 40 a/c by its own admission - so much for your air aces link!

pls come up with something better.


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## fatman17

what is really interesting to note that whilst the PAF has 'opened' its records for scrutiny after the 65 and 71 wars, the IAF has not done the same!!!

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## chisty_chowdhury

zz5168 said:


> .
> 1971 was a good time chosen by India and they are the winner. From then on Eastern pakistan is not a threat to India.


Yes.

As long i konw, when we achieve our Independence , Atal Bihari Vajpayee told to Indira Gandhi that u just made a new pakistan.


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## lkozhi

Windjammer said:


> The subject is "Who won the Air War in 1971".?
> Through conspiracy, BanglaDesh indeed gained independence,
> 90,000 odd including some 40,000 Military Personal became POW and against Geneva Convention, kept prisoners for several years.
> However, did India won the air campaign, ?
> The answer is a definitive ...... NO. !!!!


 
you win based on objectives achieved.
IAF objective was to defend on west and destroy the eastern divisions of PAF while providing support to ground troops.
The fact that your pilots had to run for trucks to get out of bangladesh is good enough proof that the eastern division of PAF ceased to exist. 
What was PAF objective? 
Now you can rethink on the bolded part.


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## ramu

fatman17 said:


> jingoism aside - if one checks the airforce records of inventories - IAF lost 68 a/c in 71 as compared to 40 PAF losses (which include 12 sabres self-destroyed at dacca plus 5 sabres lost on the ramp during a IAF attack on sargodha when re-fuelling) - PAF was able to 'deny' IAF air-superiority of the skies which was / is PAF doctrine at least at that time.
> 
> if u say u won the air-war then what can i say!



PAF lost 40 aircrafts based on ... PAF ? I will let you believe that.


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## ramu

fatman17 said:


> one wins air superiority when NO repeat NO enemy a/c are able to fly in air defence roles - when the enemy air force is rendered in-operable.
> 
> only two recent examples come to mind.
> 
> 67 arab-israeli war where the IDFAF completely destroyed the arab air forces on the ground. and...
> 
> Desert Storm 1&11. Iraqi AF destroyed on the ground.
> 
> now that's air superiority!!!
> 
> it never happened in 71.


 
Then just call air war of 1971 a draw.


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## Ganga

Patriot said:


> Well, Here's General Chuck Comment's about PAF Air Supremacy in West Pakistan
> The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a
> three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets
> and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the
> figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and
> counted the wrecks below." "They were really good, aggressive
> dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was
> damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying. "
> (General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the
> Autobiography).


 
LoL....How many people over here know that Chuck Yeager's private jet was blasted into bits by an Indian hunter .What ever he says about India is worthy to be in the bin.


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## comrade uraa

pakistan lost 34 warplanes while india lost 27 over east pakistan and 107 over west pakistan a total of 134 warplanes.

---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 PM ----------

for those who r not accepting chuck yeager must come up with solid proofs not their own ideas. cuz an indian cant b rite just cuz he says so. solid proofs needed!

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------

really?! can u provide sme info onopening of records by PAF.


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## pakistanitarzan

Pakistan won 1948 and 1965 war. Pakistan terribly lost 1971 and Kargil was a draw because technically Pakistan won in the land but lost on the table. ISI is supporting proxies against India and RAW is doing the same thing in Baluchistan. Unless both sides stop, more lives will be lost, specially poor people in both sides of the border and we will not be able to move on from the harsh past.


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## zer_0

pakistanitarzan said:


> Pakistan won 1948 and 1965 war. Pakistan terribly lost 1971 and Kargil was a draw because technically Pakistan won in the land but lost on the table. ISI is supporting proxies against India and RAW is doing the same thing in Baluchistan. Unless both sides stop, more lives will be lost, specially poor people in both sides of the border and we will not be able to move on from the harsh past.



pakistan won 1948 and 1965 when did that happen.............

both the war was fought to liberate kashmir but i can see j & k in india map so sorry u never won both of the war........

as of 1971 u can see that on map...no need for explantion 

1999 how kargil was draw when IA took all the peak which were occupied by PA..explain


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## EastWest

pakistanitarzan said:


> Pakistan won 1948 and 1965 war. Pakistan terribly lost 1971 and Kargil was a draw because technically Pakistan won in the land but lost on the table. ISI is supporting proxies against India and RAW is doing the same thing in Baluchistan. Unless both sides stop, more lives will be lost, specially poor people in both sides of the border and we will not be able to move on from the harsh past.



what are u smoking??

1948 - whatever Kashmir land Pakistan got was before Indian Army entered Kashmir, when the actual fight started btwn Indian and Pakistan armed forces, Pakistan started to retreat.

1965 - Pakistan attacked Kashmir in hopes of capturing Kashmir. Forget Kashmir, by the time the ceasefire was declared, Pakistan was grasping to save lahore..u lost more land than u gained...

1999- We claimed back almost all the land except one hill, which btw is good strategic move..u will have to maintain ur presence all the time surrounded by our hostile troops...


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## Irfan Baloch

fatman17 said:


> what is really interesting to note that whilst the PAF has 'opened' its records for scrutiny after the 65 and 71 wars, the IAF has not done the same!!!



now thats telling although they claim to win all the wars


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## KRAIT

Irfan Baloch said:


> now thats telling although they claim to win all the wars


Jumping on conclusion on one single random statement leads nowhere. IAF has its own doctrine and if it wants to keep it classified...well every country do such things in one case or the other.


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## Irfan Baloch

KRAIT said:


> Jumping on conclusion on one single random statement leads nowhere. IAF has its own doctrine and if it wants to keep it classified...well every country do such things in one case or the other.



relax, dont be so defensive. its was just a comment. normally such things are declassified after 30 odd years but if IAF wants to keep it that way then fair enough


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