# Over 4,500 soldiers killed along LoC in Pak firing since 2001



## Windjammer

*Army's response to RTI filed by Pankaj Darve revealed that post Kargil conflict, as many as 4,675 soldiers have lost their lives along the LoC in ceasefire violations by Pakistan.*


Aditi Raja | Vadodara | Published:November 5, 2016 5:22 am

More than 4,500 soldiers have lost their lives in ceasefire violations along the LoC in Jammu & Kashmir since 2001, the Army said in reply to an application filed under RTI. The reply to the RTI application, filed on September 22, is dated October 26 and signed by CPIO of the Army, based on the query of Vadodara-based activist Pankaj Darve.

It revealed that post Kargil conflict, as many as 4,675 soldiers have lost their lives along the LoC in ceasefire violations by Pakistan. The RTI reply does not reveal the number of instances of ceasefire violations reported in the last 15 years.

It also stated that as many as 1,174 army personnel have been killed in instances of terror attacks like the one in Pathankot in January this year. According to the official figures, as many as 7,908 terror instances have occurred since 2001.

Darve said, “Ever since the Uri terror attack in September, there has been much noise around the ongoing ceasefire violations. I filed the RTI to understand what the armed forces have faced in the last few years since Kargil (conflict). The figures are shocking and indicate that we lose our jawans more frequently in ceasefire violations than we are told. I plan to write to the government to make all these instances known to the people.”
He added that the figures did not include casualties suffered by the Army in natural accidents due to treacherous terrain in various parts along the LoC, especially Siachen.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ng-loc-in-pak-firing-since-2001-army-3738096/

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## NALANDA

Good Efforts. Only by highlighting the true cost and losses the civil and political leadership ( who sleep over fauj losses) will be forced to take concrete actions......

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## Alphacharlie

We are Grateful to these Departed Warriors that We can Sit with Peace.
We are Grateful to their Family`s for the Sacrifice.
We are Grateful to these Warriors they Got tickets issued to Hell for these Terrorists

Last Post will always be played in your Honour.....

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## SarthakGanguly

That's equivalent to a full brigade.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

preventing infiltrations from other side is a risky job.

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## Chauvinist

4500 soldiers = 4500 families and countless dreams.. RIP soldiers.!!!

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

i think it does not include those 950 killed during 2002 stand off. maybe this figure also don't include siachin.
and not to forget pathankot attacks were not carried out by pakistan and pathankot is not at LOC.

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## Khafee

Unnecessary loss of life. Very sad.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

SarthakGanguly said:


> That's equivalent to a full brigade.


Thats average losses of 24 soldiers per month since 2001 till now.

Wonder Doval's stratergy would be to curb on infilterations

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## itsanufy

naveedullahkhankhattak said:


> i think it does not include those 950 killed during 2002 stand off. maybe this figure also don't include siachin.
> and not to forget pathankot attacks were not carried out by pakistan and pathankot is not at LOC.


Figure includes all of them.


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## PakGuns

Doval's strategy is to shoot in his foot by killing kashmiris

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## DESERT FIGHTER

naveedullahkhankhattak said:


> i think it does not include those 950 killed during 2002 stand off. maybe this figure also don't include siachin.
> and not to forget pathankot attacks were not carried out by pakistan and pathankot is not at LOC.



The cost of operation prakram in 2001 was almost 2000... not jusr 950.

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## ali_raza

one should wonder was it worth it.why not make it settled.but we can imagine someone dont want things to cool down.how they will criticize pakistan and fool there public

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## Indus Falcon

It's pathetic, how politicians waste precious human lives.Simply pathetic.



Syama Ayas said:


> preventing infiltrations from other side is a risky job.


Thats only part of the story. The other part is how to keep the IB & LOC burning, in order to scare the normal Indian man of the Pakistani boogeyman, and in return secure votes.

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## Rafi

The new model Pakistani Army has become highly efficient, highly professional, basically a group of warriors and hunters.

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## Indus Falcon

[USER=25628]@xxx[/USER][{::::::::::::::::::> said:


> Bullshit. These people rape and kill Kashmiris everyday. RIH dead Indian so-called "Army" terrorists!



Kashmir is a separate issue.  Kashmir is not about votes, but controlling it via murder, torture, and intimidation, i.e. a failed strategy. They think that they can control Kashmir, but with 700,000+ boots on the ground, who controls who?

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## Mamluk

Indus Falcon said:


> Kashmir is a separate issue. Kashmir is not about votes, but controlling it via murder, torture, and intimidation, i.e. a failed strategy. They think that they can control Kashmir, but with 700,000+ boots on the ground, who controls who?



Point is these are the same people who kill Kashmiris.

So don't cry for their families. Indians don't cry for the families of Kashmiri vicitms.

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## Areesh

Photon said:


> *Haha, like always you are avoiding the question , can you legally ask your army any questions ? *Like Indians can.
> 
> Do you have a RTI act?
> 
> *Firstly they don't tell you anything , secondly you can not ask them any questions?
> 
> Then you are stupid enough to believe, since your army is not declaring its casualties, then there must be none!
> *



We are done answering your questions kid. On every thread you come with same bunch of bullsh!t questions and then run away when ask question in return never to come back. This might be 5th or 6th thread like that.

RTI or no RTI. Army is criticized and questioned far strongly than it can ever be in India. There are many who are known for their harsh criticism of army something you can't even dream of in your joke of a democracy.

Firstly we can ask all questions and ISPR answers them all in its reports and press releases.

Secondly we have enough reasons to believe in our low military casualty. your cowardice being the biggest one of them. Our reasons are far stronger than whatever cr@p you have to believe in 29 September goody good tale of surgical strike.

And stop using all those colors. They won't make your words more worthy. they would remain rants of an Indian military fanboy anyways.

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## Indus Falcon

Photon said:


> *Haha, like always you are avoiding the question , can you legally ask your army any questions ? *Like Indians can.
> 
> Do you have a RTI act?
> 
> *Firstly they don't tell you anything , secondly you can not ask them any questions?
> 
> Then you are stupid enough to believe, since your army is not declaring its casualties, then there must be none!
> *



So when will someone out of the 1+ billion people of your country exercise their right via the RTI act, and ask the IA & Govt. to provide evidence of so called "surgical strike"?

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## Photon

Areesh said:


> We are done answering your questions kid. On every thread you come with same bunch of bullsh!t questions and then run away when ask question in return never to come back. This might be 5th or 6th thread like that.
> 
> RTI or no RTI. Army is criticized and questioned far strongly than it can ever be in India. There are many who are known for their harsh criticism of army something you can't even dream of in your joke of a democracy.
> 
> Firstly we can ask all questions and ISPR answers them all in its reports and press releases.
> 
> Secondly we have enough reasons to believe in our low military casualty. your cowardice being the biggest one of them. Our reasons are far stronger than whatever cr@p you have to believe in 29 September goody good tale of surgical strike.
> 
> And stop using all those colors. They won't make your words more worthy. they would remain rants of an Indian military fanboy anyways.



Is it your weak grasp over english language that you do not understand *that "criticism" is not equal to "information".*

*for eg. I can criticize you for being an idiot, because you believe that not even a single Pakistani army soldier has even been injured in past 5 weeks of cease fire violations. *

You can criticize your army all you want, but that does not mean they respect your opinion enough to answer your questions. They tell you, only what *they think *is best for you to know.

On top of it, you can not *legally* ask your army any questions, like in India , we can.

*And if you did not want to answer my questions, you should not have quoted me in the first place!!*



Indus Falcon said:


> So when will someone out of the 1+ billion people of your country exercise their right via the RTI act, and ask the IA & Govt. to provide evidence of so called "surgical strike"?



Government has already clarified on this, why it is not revealing this information, revealing information on surgical strikes (UAV feeds, satellite pictures etc).

*Will lead to Pakistan getting it hands on sensitive data, reveal India's C4I capabilities, might become a road block in further cross border strikes, if and when required.*

Plus it will push Pakistani into corner, they will have to react, in face of compelling evidence.

Target of these were Pakistani terrorists, not Pakistani state itself.

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## SQ8

Gentlemen, soldiers follow orders and are human beings. These men died for their state's illicit polices but as much as some of their actions deserve our ire; they do not warrant utter disrespect. There are good and bad soldiers in all military forces,yet soldiers always salute each other even if they are from bitter enemies.

We represent a defence site.. we can condemn their actions.. but we shan't celebrate the loss of life on either side.
Because we are Pakistanis, we need to be, we MUST be better than the trash that forms the majority of Indians on our site now, better than the trash that makes up their defence forums where even 1/100th of the same freedom of speech we allow is absent.

Our existence, our being better human beings is a continual embarrassment and burn them up to the point where they hurt their keys on their keyboards. Let us continue to do that and not stoop to their level.

See a derailment, a troll.. DO NOT REPLY.. report and let us handle it.. and handle it we do.

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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Gentlemen, soldiers follow orders and are human beings. These men died for their state's illicit polices but as much as some of their actions deserve our ire; they do not warrant utter disrespect. There are good and bad soldiers in all military forces,yet soldiers always salute each other even if they are from bitter enemies.
> 
> We represent a defence site.. we can condemn their actions.. but we shan't celebrate the loss of life on either side.
> Because we are Pakistanis, we need to be, we MUST be better than the trash that forms the majority of Indians on our site now, better than the trash that makes up their defence forums where even 1/100th of the same freedom of speech we allow is absent.
> 
> Our existence, our being better human beings is a continual embarrassment and burn them up to the point where they hurt their keys on their keyboards. Let us continue to do that and not stoop to their level.
> 
> See a derailment, a troll.. DO NOT REPLY.. report and let us handle it.. and handle it we do.


Yes Sir I agree with you completely. Yes India is our enemy but these soldiers were doing there duty and as these soldiers are no more their matter is with ALLAH now. Ridiculing these dead will only degrade us as humans.

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## saiyan0321

Sad to be honest. 

These were all cross border conflicts. Conflicts which could have been avoided had peace prevailed. 

It is my personal opinion that the most useless form of conflict is cross border confrontations bcz there are absolutely no gains in it. No victors. You are fighting in that conflict not for land nor conquests nor objectives but to simply kill the enemy in cross border firing. There is no victory in such a conflict. Just blood and losses. 

In a war there are objectives, targets, conquests, thoughts of liberations and thoughts of invasions and thoughts of defending homeland but in a cross border conflict there is nothing of this sort. There is simply shooting and blasting at each other with hopes of hitting somebody. 

Perhaps I am wrong and don't understand but to me there is no gain in cross border firings and no victory. 

In 30 years we will both be hundred years old in our formation. 

Most probably by then we would have doubled the number of dead soldiers and the issue will be as stagnant as it is now. 

If this doesn't jolt both sides up to solve this issue once and for all then nothing will. 

Remember in our Islamic culture as well as Pakistani culture we do not celebrate death. Even of the greatest of enemies we do not celebrate their death for it is a solemn affair. 

Well hopefully leaderships on both sides wake up and end this issue peacefully.

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## Saleem

Chauvinist said:


> 4500 soldiers = 4500 families and countless dreams.. RIP soldiers.!!!


these are terrorists in occupation of kashmir, carrying out crimes against humanity and rape and plunder on innocent civilians...no sympathy for them..plus the "violations" are instigated by bharat not pakistan....dont buy into bharati propaganda......



Indus Falcon said:


> From the same article:
> 
> "There is no conclusive evidence to prove either side's claims - the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle."


there is no iddle here kulbushan yadav and the multitude of "spies" [read terrorists] caught these days proves it--bharat is a terrorist state.......

dont forget ?surabjeet singh who was released by the terrorist facilitator nawaz and then went back to bharat to admit he did all the terror--if i remember correctly he eas convicted of a blast that killed at least 50 innocents ,.......but then scum like nawaz and his clan have no shame or conscience.

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## dilpakistani

that's a peacetime casualty count which is very unfortunate... no love or respect for Indians but soldiers of any nation are special sons and deserve nothing less than high respect for their noble profession... We are a nation afflicted with a decade long war and lost more than 16000 of our sons in those flames of war therefore i can only feel sorry for those lost soldiers ... it was mostly peacetime between our countries.. It shouldn't have been that high for either side...


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## Kyusuibu Honbu

Indus Falcon said:


> It's pathetic, how politicians waste precious human lives.Simply pathetic.
> 
> 
> Thats only part of the story. The other part is how to keep the IB & LOC burning, in order to scare the normal Indian man of the Pakistani boogeyman, and in return secure votes.



If that is the objective, they certainly are doing a poor job.


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## chauvinisticpatriot

Indian army always hide their casualties,their propaganda media is not free to ask. they got their 21 soldiers in recently claimed surgical strikes in which only 2 pakistani soldiers were martyred


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## IceCold

If Indians are admitting 4500 than rest assured the numbers are much higher. On another note Indians should realise the cost of heating up the LOC and IB just to stroke bruise egos and also the reluctance on India's part to solve the Kashmir dispute.
We are not asking to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan, our stance is to hold referendum as promised and just to be clear that also means in our part of Kashmir as well. 
Modi is a maniac who sole agenda is to create chaos in the region in an attempt to show how powerful of a man he really is. In reality you dont fight a war with another nuclear power because there will be no winners. No matter how many jets India buy, at the end of the day Pakistan will maintain the minimum credible deterrence which means that India will always have to factor the same in case it decides for a misadventure. 
So than why do we quibble and not solve our disputes like mature nations do. Its a shame.

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## Mugwop

4500 soldiers who were killed doesn't bother them but they are more concerned with Pakistani casualties

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## noksss

SHAH07 said:


> This reports also reveals that Indian army has hided its casualties at LoC
> 
> 
> How stupid that report also rejects your claim of surgical strikes and says only cross border raid was attempted



Then how come this is published now


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## I.R.A

4,500 / 15 =300

300 / 12 = 25

That is almost one per day. I think its the drawback of "keeping your enemy engaged on Western front."

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## venu309

If a soldier is shot & killed during Cease fire violation or peace time, then whoever shoots him is a coward who would shoot someone in the back. There is nothing to cheer about.

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## cerberus

Mugwop said:


> 4500 soldiers who were killed doesn't bother them but they are more concerned with Pakistani casualties


Why Should It Be Its cost of insurgency Many Of Such Attacks Are Conducted By militants.Death is Certain reality of Life of Soldiers and People who in Armed Forces

Sacrifices these Soldiers didn't goes in vain they controlled And regulated Which was once war zone into Controlled unrest in few red zones in valley 
drastic reduce in Militancy and civilian deaths is result of the courage these forces


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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

it doesnot include operation prakram and siachin death due to weather. it has been clearly written"due to cease fire violations from pakistan".
read the last lines* "He added that the figures did not include casualties suffered by the Army in natural accidents due to treacherous terrain in various parts along the LoC, especially Siachen."

so the actual figure is near to 10k.*



pushpak said:


> *This number 4500 , includes all those soldiers of Indian army whose lives lost in action since the year 2001 *.
> 
> They include :
> Op Parakram loss
> Soldiers who lost lives fighting insurgency in J&K
> Siachen casualties
> Soldiers who died on the LOC in cross border firings


clearly written in the end no siachin or other natural accidents like parakram or siachin.

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

pushpak said:


> *This number 4500 , includes all those soldiers of Indian army whose lives lost in action since the year 2001 *.
> 
> They include :
> Op Parakram loss
> Soldiers who lost lives fighting insurgency in J&K
> Siachen casualties
> Soldiers who died on the LOC in cross border firings


That makes sense


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## I.R.A

pushpak said:


> This number 4500 , includes all those soldiers of Indian army whose lives lost in action since the year 2001



Wouldn't this mean a funeral a day? Has India been holding funeral everyday for last 15 years?


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## soundHound

oFFbEAT said:


> Considering Pakistanis are martial race, 1 Pakistani = 10 Indians, technically about 450 Pak. soldiers should have died due to Indian retaliation, but Pak. forces are also protected by 'roohani' elements, so, considering everything, I estimate '0' Pak. soldier's death since 2001.




I know you are being sarcastic here, but any loss of life is deplorable, be it Pakistan or India, am 100% sure loss of life on other side would be much much higher, I just pray that this loss of life should go away, and both side should learn to leave in peace.


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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

pushpak said:


> .
> 
> That is almost one per day. I think its the drawback of "keeping your enemy engaged on Western front.
> 
> 
> 
> This is BS or shall i say Bullshit for clarity . It's completely wrong reporting .
> 
> *In 2004 india and Pakistan had signed cease fire agreement across LOC which had hold good and was duly observed by both sides till the year 2011 , so much so that India managed to build 750 KM fence across LOC in kashmir and line of actual control along Jammu border .*
> 
> So to say 300 Indian soldiers died every year in firing across LOC when there was no violation of cease fire agreement can be called imaginary if not bad reporting by the newspaper .


it's more like your army lying to you. media only report whats told to them.


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## I.R.A

pushpak said:


> That's was exactly the point i was making .
> 
> Most of these deaths were from OP parakram in 2002 which saw 800 odd casualties & also insurgency related deaths in in J&K early 2000s which were high at that time.
> 
> Since 2004 , there was cease fire agreement between india and pakista which was intact till 2011 . Also death due to insurgency in J&K came down from 2007 on wards .
> 
> *These 4500 deaths aren't just from LOC firing .It is wrongly reported here.*




Apparently its the same indian army that claimed surgical strikes..................... don't know why you won't accept this coming from them ........ they cannot always meet your expectations.



Windjammer said:


> *Army's response to RTI filed by Pankaj Darve revealed that post Kargil conflict, as many as 4,675 soldiers have lost their lives along the LoC in ceasefire violations by Pakistan.*


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## Windjammer

Sad as it is, seems the cat is out of the bag.
The overall figure of 4500+ over 15 years divides into an average of 25 Indian casualties each month. In the recent flare up which is supposed to be most bloody of recent times, India has only admitted the death of 12 soldiers in over a month, doesn't require a genius to conclude that over the years, who has been hiding and downplaying the figures, thus leaves little to imagination the actual Indian causality figure during the full blown Kargil conflict. !!!

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## Windjammer

pushpak said:


> And Pakistanis are super men made of steel who no Indian bullets or mortar rounds can hurt .
> 
> Forget indian army , this was BSF saying six days ago :
> *BSF fires 5,000 mortar shells, 35,000 bullets in 11 days*
> 
> *Result : No casualties among pak ranger or pak army . LOL*
> 
> PS: I have a bridge to sell , and I'm getting lots of calls from Pakistan .


Welcome back with your fake ID, and have a blast till you last.
BSF and others also claim of destroying dozens of Pakistani posts but just like on the claims of the surgical strikes, their batteries were flat to capture a single image.
Let me remind you that apart from on the 29th September, Pakistan has never claimed on any Indian casualties or damage but ironically the likes of BSF is whistling both ways, must be some ayurvedic technology that allows them to count every Pakistani causality and post to the decimal.
Must give them the credit for being successful in nurturing over a billion Ostriches.

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## thesolar65

Does Pakistan has any such kind of DATA? Does Pakistan keeps its loss of soldiers? Does Pakistan has any type of RTI? Oh...wait. Pakistan Army is the main Accountant General who confuses as to how many soldiers it has, how many proxies who acts as army men, how many terrorists who also act as mujaheddin/Army men!!

Nobody has guts to ask for these kind of data from PA lest he will find himself two feet under ground!!

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## noksss

Windjammer said:


> Sad as it is, seems the cat is out of the bag.
> The overall figure of 4500+ over 15 years divides into an average of 25 Indian casualties each month. In the recent flare up which is supposed to be most bloody of recent times, India has only admitted the death of 12 soldiers in over a month, doesn't require a genius to conclude that over the years, who has been hiding and downplaying the figures, thus leaves little to imagination the actual Indian causality figure during the full blown Kargil conflict. !!!



The point is any army which is involved in a prolonged conflict is bound to have casualties .U wouldn't be boasting about IA casualties here when u Google about the casualties of US Army / Pakistan army in War on Terror . If u want I can help I with the Dawn report about the casualties


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## Windjammer

noksss said:


> The point is any army which is involved in a prolonged conflict is bound to have casualties .U wouldn't be boasting about IA casualties here when u Google about the casualties of US Army / Pakistan army in War on Terror . If u want I can help I with the Dawn report about the casualties


You try very hard but no joy, first you first need to help yourself to understand the difference between fighting a full blown WOT and the occasional crossfire on LOC.

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## noksss

Windjammer said:


> You try very hard but no joy, first you first need to help yourself to understand the difference between fighting a full blown WOT and the occasional crossfire on LOC.



Its clear now that its you who is trying hard . The whole 4500 casualties is not because of ceasefire its mainly because of fighting the infiltrators from across the border you can manipulate it to have joy


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## Reichsmarschall

Chauvinist said:


> 4500 soldiers = 4500 families and countless dreams.. RIP soldiers.!!!


and what about the 100K+ of Kashmiri Families who lost their Dear ones due to these Soldiers?? they were hostile towards us,they were firing on our Civilians our Army Killed them and we should not mourn their death



thesolar65 said:


> Does Pakistan has any such kind of DATA? Does Pakistan keeps its loss of soldiers? Does Pakistan has any type of RTI? Oh...wait. Pakistan Army is the main Accountant General who confuses as to how many soldiers it has, how many proxies who acts as army men, how many terrorists who also act as mujaheddin/Army men!!
> 
> Nobody has guts to ask for these kind of data from PA lest he will find himself two feet under ground!!


Hitting out at politicians who have demanded proof of the surgical strikes conducted by the Indian army in the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, in retaliation to the Uri attack, Defence Minister Manohar Parrkiar on Thursday said that no one had doubted bravery of our forces ever and the government is not going to oblige them by giving proof of the Army action.

“No one had doubted bravery of our forces ever, but for the first time recently some people are doubting. There are many people who are not loyal to our country and criticized Indian army, but we don’t have to give them any proof,” said Parrikar at aBJP function in Agra.

Parrkiar said that many ex-servicemen have shown willingness to fight on the border if required. “Some ex-servicemen wrote to me and said that they are ready to fight on the border if need arises.I salute them,” said the minister, adding “We carried out a 100% perfect surgical strike, our nation carries the heart and courage to carry this task out.”

The Uttar Pradesh unit of the BJP gave a “warm reception” to Parrikar and felicitated him for the successful surgical strike by the forces. BJP workers in the state capital have put up big hoardings thanking Prime Minister Narendra Modiand Parrikar for “teaching a lesson to Pakistan.”



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/those-asking-for-proof-of-surgical-strikes-not-loyal-to-country-manohar-parrikar.453918/#ixzz4PJuGyjTs

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## M.SAAD

That's quite high numbers.


Again taking the fact that Indian Army and Media hides its casualties ..


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## The Headache

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> The cost of operation prakram in 2001 was almost 2000... not jusr 950.


2000? I think more than 500000 soldiers were killed and more than 1800000 captured by Pak Army !


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## WaLeEdK2

The Headache said:


> 2000? I think more than 500000 soldiers were killed and more than 1800000 captured by Pak Army !



According to Indian news (times of India) the number was exactly 1874. I wouldn't be laughing if I were you. Just goes to show Indian Army's poor mobilization. A large army with low skilled mobilization is a disaster waiting to happen. India can't match Pakistan's mobilization speed/efficiency. If it went on any longer India would have lost many more.


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## The Headache

WaLeEdK2 said:


> According to Indian news (times of India) the number was exactly 1874. I wouldn't be laughing if I were you. Just goes to show Indian Army's poor mobilization. A large army with low skilled mobilization is a disaster waiting to happen. India can't match Pakistan's mobilization speed/efficiency. If it went on any longer India would have lost many more.


Yeah man. Your army is perfect I admit. And they have shown their perfection 4 times in past. There they actually showed how efficient they were in mobilization speed/efficiency . Aur kitni tareef karu Pak fouj ki? Bolega toh Modi se keh ke abhi se surrender karva du ???


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