# MiG 35 : Not be underestimated



## vnomad

*Special report
The fighter jet stops mid-air, turns 360ÃÂ° and fires 
By R. Prasannan/Moscow*

A helicopter can stay still mid-air. But a fighter plane? No way. The laws of physics and jet propulsion donÃ¢â¬â¢t allow that.

Russian engineers have achieved just that. They are offering the plane to India, which is looking for 126 multi-role fighters like the US F-16 and F-18, the French Mirage-2000-V and Swedish Gripen.






Smart killer: MiG-35's manoeuvrability is matchless

"We have responded to IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s request for information, and are awaiting request for a proposal," said Col Mikhail Globenko, the general representative of Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG in India.

The aircraft, temporarily called MiG-29M (since it is based on the airframe of the tried and tested MiG-29) and soon to be christened MiG-35, is claimed to be the only aircraft in the world with a thrust vector control that allows it to stop mid-air and manoeuvre 360 degrees.

And it is not just aerobatics to impress kids. "The thrust vector gives the aircraft certain advantages in close combat," said Andrey Karasev, deputy general designer of MiG. "An aircraft that can abruptly change speed and direction does not allow enemy aircraft to leave its firing range."

The manoeuvre, called Ã¢â¬ËBellÃ¢â¬â¢, also enables the pilot to stop mid-air and thus prevent himself from entering the enemy planeÃ¢â¬â¢s missile firing range. And then he can turn around abruptly in any direction but still fire its missile at the enemy.

A conventional aircraft cannot turn around abruptly; it will have to jet forward, take a long loop and then close in towards the enemy, by which time the enemy would either be waiting for it or have fled. "This is important in close combat," said Alexei Fyodorov, general director of MiG corporation. "This enhances the safety of the pilot and the manoeuvrability of the aircraft. "The pilot can recover from any position with this technology. We have modified the aircraft control system to enable this."

Thrust vector control technology, called OVT in Russian and developed by the Klimov plant and integrated with the RD-33 engine that powered the MiG-29 fighters, was first flight-tested in 2003, but was shown to the public for the first time at the recent MAKS-2005 airshow in Moscow.

The MiG-29 came to India in the 1990s off the Russian shelf as part of what many call the stupidest (not for what was bought, but for what was not bought) of all Indo-Russian war jet deals. The Soviets had offered to sell not only the aircraft but also the technology and licence to manufacture it in India, but India said it wanted only a few readymade planes. Within months of the delivery, the Soviet Union broke up and India faced a severe service and spares problem as no one in India had seen the inside of the aircraft except the cockpit.

The Russians say they can offer the MiG-29M in a Brahmos-like package to IndiaÃ¢â¬âtransfer technology for manufacture within India, and jointly develop the aircraft further and sell it to third countries. "It is a double jump over the Sukhoi deal, so to speak," said a senior official in Rosoboronexport, RussiaÃ¢â¬â¢s defence export agency. The Sukhoi-30MKI also has thrust vector technology, but is limited to one direction. The technology installed in MiG-29M would allow 360 degree manoeuvrability. And, though the Sukhoi-MKI was developed jointly, there is no provision for joint marketing in the deal.

Indian pilots at the air show were impressed with the plane and its new technology, but "it all depends on what we ask for in terms of avionics, weaponry and of course service support," said an IAF test pilot. Conceded Fyodorov, "IAF has very stiff requirements. We are willing to integrate any system, as the user wants it." _MiG officials expect India to ask for Israeli Elta radars, display components from France and weaponry of Russian origin. "We have not frozen the technology specifications," said Fyodorov._

Russians, whose 70 per cent of arms exports are to India and China, are hopeful of beating competition on four counts. One, the competitors are offering old technology which will last only a decade or two whereas the new technology should last at least till 2040. Two, Russia has no problem outsourcing 30 per cent or more of manufacturing to Indian companies. Three, Indian pilots are familiar with MiG-29. Four, among the competitors, Russia alone is offering joint development of a new aircraft and part-rights to sell the plane to third countries. "In future, all projects will be for mutual design, production and marketing," said Fyodorov.

Meanwhile, Russia has set up a service and spares base in India with the recently launched Rosoboronservice (India) Ltd. The company is a venture of Russian manufacturers and vendors and one Indian company.

"The activities of the company range from repairs and maintenance of systems to spare parts supply, training of personnel, etc. It is an initiative to improve product support and make them available at the doorstep of the Indian armed forces," said Commander V.G. Jayaprakasan, managing director of Rosoboronservice (India) Ltd.

Though the new company incorporates only naval vendors, it is expected to take up the responsibility for Russian origin assets of the Air Force, too, "making it RussiaÃ¢â¬â¢s one-stop shop in India," said a Rosoboronexport official.

Russians concede they no longer enjoy a captive market in India. Israel, with which India had no defence relationship till a few years ago, has become the second largest supplier, beating France.

Now the US has made a dramatic offer of F-16 and F-18 fighters. "Yes, as exporters, we are a bit concerned about India diversifying its defence procurement sources," admitted Sergey Chemezov, director-general of Rosoboronexport. "But we still have the advantage. We always offer state-of-the-art technology, and you know it from the Sukhoi-MKI experience. At the last Paris air show, the Sukhoi-30 was the biggest draw. I doubt if the US will be so open and offering the latest. All the others may at best offer off-the-shelf products and their technology."

Russian officials expect that sale of readymade weapons to India may decline in the next few years, but are hopeful to carry on with a strategic partnership through joint development of weapon systems. Having signed a deal during the air show with Hindustan Aeronautics for licensed production in India of AL-551 aeroengines which will power IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s own intermediate jet trainer project, Russians are pitching strongly for a multi-role transport aircraft deal, currently roadblocked by differences on intellectual property rights protection.

"We have forwarded a draft inter-government agreement on this," said Chemezov. "But it may need legislation both in India and Russia."

But why pitch for India so much? Not only because India is a big buyer, but also because an Indian order is considered a certification for quality in the international market.

No wonder the Russians are pitching for joint development of a futuristic warplane with India. They have made presentations before the Indian defence ministry on this fifth-generation aircraft that may become a reality by 2020.

"The concept stage will start soon," said Fyodorov. "Some Russian companies are looking out for partners. Our preference is India."


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## Contrarian

So basically, we will certainly further develop the plane and not buy the regular version, and it is almost sure we'r going for this plane, so there is definitely going to be a MiG 35MKI.

And This is supposed to be BETTER than the Su-30MKI?
Thats awsome!!


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## vnomad

The Russians evidently are don't expect India to go with an Russian radar. The AESA Elta 2052 is likely then.

I wonder if the MiG35's engine can be used in the LCA. The ToT will include the engine so LCA's engines wouldn't have to be imported until the Kaveri matures.

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## Contrarian

yeah, we'r no longer in the buyer seller relationship with them, they recognise that. We'r more co-developing weapon systems with them.

Incidentally, the article says there is no proviison for joint marketing for the Su-30MKI. Singapore/Malaysia just bought the Su-30MKS/MKM from Russia. Almost the same as the MKI. And a huge part of the contract came to us to integrate the Russia, French and other things that we desiged for the MKI  . So basically whoever has to buy an MKI, we get money too. I am writing the two countries and two versions, as im not sure which one it is. I think it was Malaysia though. They didnt get Israeli systems.

And MiG 35 is gonna be even better 
Its defo gonna be the Israeli radar mate. The Bars radar with the MKI is already pretty good. If we'r buying summat more advanced only elta 2052 is the way to go. However it might take time. It is supposed to be the best AESA radar, including the US designs! Integrating will take a lot of time, the IAF wants the planes in a hurry whereas if they MKI'ze it, it will be a long drawn process.


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## vnomad

malaymishra123 said:


> It is supposed to be the best AESA radar, including the US designs!


I don't know about that. The best is generally considered the AN/APG-81 seen on only the F-35 so far. The most powerful is the AN/APG-77 on the F-22. That one has no competition at all. Russia also has a Zhuk-MAe AESA under development. Two prototypes were released last month. 

The AN/APG 77 has 2000 T/R modules. The Elta-2052 has 1500 and the An/APG 81 also has a similar number. 



> Integrating will take a lot of time, the IAF wants the planes in a hurry whereas if they MKI'ze it, it will be a long drawn process.


I don't think so. The changes will only range to avionics and the radar. Shouldn't be too tough to integrate either.


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## Contrarian

you know the difference in Su-30 and Su-30MKI, its a different ball game altogether. From increased range, to better electronics suite, its an entire package. So it will surely take a while mate. IAF wants these planes now. So i dont know if they go for the MiG 35 MKI. 

As regards to the Elta 2052. Just google it. I change my stance because nothing is sure. Its arguably one of the best AESA radars available. With the ability to track >60 planes simultaneously!!! Read bout it mate. Its awsome!


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## Thunder

Someone please post the video here if this 360 stop.


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## Neo

I think I posted it somewhere in the military multimedia section.
I'll try to find it.

Here's another one, poor quality though.


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## Awesome

Mig-35 is an awesome plane.

I'm so hoping India's desire to chummy up with America makes them go for the F-18s. China and Pak can move in onto the Mig-35s.


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## Keysersoze

Yeah and has anyone checked what the potential G-load will be on a pilot?

Plus the potential airframe stresses?

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## Thunder

keysersoze said:


> Yeah and has anyone checked what the potential G-load will be on a pilot?
> 
> Plus the potential airframe stresses?



Mounverability aside, how much payload can it carry? It's radar, and other instruments, are they up to date?


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## Neo

Asim,

Super J-10 or FC-20 will have TVC aswell, most probably 2D.
MKI is also 2D, Mig-29OVT/35 will be the first to feature 3D TVC.


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## Neo

Thunder said:


> Mounverability aside, how much payload can it carry? It's radar, and other instruments, are they up to date?



Expect a mixture of Israeli and European avionics a la MKI.
Elta or Aesa would be preferred over any Russian radar.


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## Keysersoze

We gotta ask wether this is actually viable in ACM.....maybe someone should ask MURADk wether it is actually of any use. Or is it just a air show manoevere....


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## blain2

Even so, the bell, cobra etc. all have their shortcomings too...losing that much energy also means that if the adversary's first missile misses, the chances of surviving the first or second one would be very little if the other aircraft has a HMS/D capability and quick queing of weapons.

I stand by my reservations about the invincibility of such controls. I think the aircraft will no doubt be nice (would be a very nice addition to the PAF as well if it were possible), but with the newer SRAAMs etc., they will die the same rate as conventional, non-TVC/N aircraft.


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## Thunder

Well since most russian fighters are huge with nice big engines that leave alot of RCS for the enemy to see. But other then that, mounveribilty and payload of russian fighters is always impressive.


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## joey

There is so much wrong informations in this forum and also in IDF sometimes, why dont you Neo invite some better guys from sinodefence/WAB/Keypub to increase the quality of discussion?

Thunder > Your wrong Mig 35 RCS is much much lower.
Cobra means **** in todays world of BVR, except some conditions.

Asim Aqil >surely but i dont see any reason China will go for Mig 35 AS then forget Israeli stuffs, the AESA is most important.

Vnomad> your nuts lol, why the hell will we use RD33K engines here? we are already moving ahead with GE404 which is used in Gripen and SR71 - Blackbird, not only the engine has less smoke it has better MTBF as usual american/british/european engines do.
GE404 will give LCA a perfectly matched performance vis-a-vis Gripen provided there is AESA else it will LOSE.


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## Contrarian

I think since the IAF is now paying attention to the Stealth factor, there would be anti-radar coating on the planes like the F-18E/F to reduce the RCS. Its a very significant possibility. plus the MiG 35 already has a very low RCS.

About the radar avionics, again IMO its pretty sure they will fit in the Israeli Elta 2052 AESA radar. It can track a beastly 64 targets in the air simultaneously. Its one of the best. 

I disagree with you blain. TVC is very very useful, which is why all the new generation planes are trying to get TVC in them, inlcluding the Super J-10.
3-D TVC is *very* useful to dodge missiles. The main purpose of TVC is that the plane does not lose energy while turning. TVC gives the plane Super-Manouverability. The Su-30MKI, despite being big is ssuperbly manouvereable, just because of its *2-D* TVC. MiG 35 would be able to twist an turn with a very very low loss or speed, that is why TVC is considered so good. It gives an exceptional advantage in dog fights, and in evasive manouvers against missiles, etc. I quote the capability of the 2-D TVC in the Su-30MKI:



> _Thrust Vectoring Control: The 2D TVC makes an aircraft highly maneuverable. The aircraft is capable of near-zero airspeed at high angles of attack and dynamic aerobatics in negative speeds up to 200 km/h._
> 
> _Aerodynamics
> * The integral aerodynamic configuration combined with thrust vectoring results in practically unlimited manoeuvrability and unique taking off and landing characteristics.
> 
> * The Su-30MKI has no level winged AoA limitations: it can fly at even 180 degree AoA and still recover. This high super-agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew.
> 
> * The canard notably assists in controlling the aircraft at large angles of attack (AoA) and bringing it to a level flight condition. The wing will have high-lift devices featured as deflecting leading edges and flaperons acting the flaps and ailerons._



It also gives the plane the ability to turn rapidly and re-enter combat in a favourable position or inclination so as to launch missiles. As is quoted above. a WVR fight with a TVC plane would be very much a mistake unless the opposing a/c has an advantage wrt its positioning. Ofcourse, this does not apply to a BVR fight, where things are heading nowadays. Still, without losing energy dodging, gives it an advantage to dodge missiles.

Again it is my opinion that if the IAF goes the whole hog, then MiG 35 would be fitted with the Python 5 WVR missiles from Israel along with the Elta radar.
The rest of the avionics would be from France, etc. The EW would be again from Israel, the one India developed with Israel for its future JSF planes, called Mayawi.

To Asim, it is ALMOST certain that the MiG 35 will be bought,* Along *with the F/A-18E/F. If we do put ELTA on the MiG 35 it will be a far far superior plane to the F/A-18 in almost all respects, exceptions being the A2G mode. The F/A-18 brings with it not only a sure AESA, but access to US's armaments like JDAM, JSOW, AIM 120 D, among others. The F/A-18E/F will be for the Navy, the IAF will use the MiG 35, so both AF and Navy have very potent platforms.

What is in contention is *whether* the IAF will MKI'ze it or buy it directly. Ofcourse we will buy it with complete ToT, so maybe HAL can MKI'ze it on its own at later stages, after initially buying the regular one from Russia. Nothing is sure on that account. But i do hope that they re-develop the plane.


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## Contrarian

Joey, do you think that India will MKI'ze MiG 35?? or will they buy it off the shelf for now??


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## joey

If India buys Mig 35 HELL YES MKI'ZED.Do you even know we changed the DSP in N001M Bars Radar to our own processor which increased the Azimuth somehow.

Plus India I think should go for Mig 35....its cheaper than any other.
If i was in MRCA tender I'd go blindly with Rafale+Mig 35.


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## Contrarian

joey said:


> If India buys Mig 35 HELL YES MKI'ZED.Do you even know we changed the DSP in N001M Bars Radar to our own processor which increased the Azimuth somehow.



Dude, im not talking whether you want it to be MKI'zed or not. Im saying keeping in mind, the budget, keeping in mind the fact that the AF wanted these planes yesterday, would the AF consent to re-develop the plane, considering how much time it will take! and how much later the deliveries would begin!

They could alternatively buy the planes now, use it, and re-develop it later with HAL as ofcourse we have the ToT. So redeveloping at later stages would make more sense to the IAF. Ofcourse i want them to MKi'ze it now, but the question is would it make sense to IAF?

NOW what do you think? LOL

EDIT: Btw good new about the processor in the radar of the MKI, now also tell me what is Azimuth?


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## Awesome

lol @ MKIzed


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## joey

Dude sukhoi hate to tell you but your talking like a noob.
IAF wont go for planes without being MKI'zed.PERIOD.like it or not.
budget bla bla wtf? are we going to war tomorrow?
whats use of having PESA radar?
russian avionics?
Hpw can we fit python 5, Astra. r77 all kind of $hits without being MKI'zed?

for the meaning of MKI who dont know, Made Kommensaurate "export" Indie.


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## joey

Suggest you read this about N001M Bars from a Iranian Guy http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-f8FN_4owbKfGONIovBj2i8hUYkqWaQE-?cq=1&p=60


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## MIG_ACE

malaymishra123 said:


> Joey, do you think that India will MKI'ze MiG 35?? or will they buy it off the shelf for now??


Buying the Mig-35 without modifying it with western avionics can be the worst mistake the IAF can make. Super-manoevrability is good, but of no use if the aircraft lacks good avionics.The Mig-35 in its current form with Russian avionics(which are usually crappy except a few types of radars) wud be of no use against an AMRAAM or MICA equipped western jet.

If they fit it with the Elta-2052,french cockpit avionics,indian/israeli RWR and ECMs and datalink it will be a BEAST with a capital B. But it will also increase the cost considerably.


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## joey

That information is not so classified but you'll have a good idea


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## Awesome

Man IAF would do all that once the government ditches the Americans.

I think the government wants the US, but the Russian Lobby in the IAF want Mig-35. And perhaps even good common sense too.

If it goes upto the next elections and BJP comes to power, then almost certainly you guys are getting F-18s.


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## MIG_ACE

Asim Aquil said:


> Man IAF would do all that once the government ditches the Americans.
> 
> I think the government wants the US, but the Russian Lobby in the IAF want Mig-35. And perhaps even good common sense too.
> 
> If it goes upto the next elections and BJP comes to power, then almost certainly you guys are getting F-18s.


There is very little chance of the BJP coming to power. And why do u think they will prefer the US more than current govt.?


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## Awesome

They were the ones who pretty much started the trend. They were ready to commit forces to Iraq for America


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## MIG_ACE

They werent "ready" IMO.After the US suggested it, the issue was discussed in the parliament and rejected.


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## Awesome

rejected by the others. the administration so wanted it.


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## joey

Sukhoi checked this http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-f8FN_4owbKfGONIovBj2i8hUYkqWaQE-?cq=1&p=60 ??


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## joey

Asim There is no lobby here in huge IAF thing, our armed forces are not **** they will evaluate each inch and go for the one.

there is lobby but that doesnt really efefct the decision that much.


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## MIG_ACE

Its the same link u had given earlier joey.


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## Contrarian

why are you calling him sukhoi? when he's actually a small little MiG 
lol...j/k dude!

Asim, i dont think you are getting it mate, it is not a question of *IF* we get the MiG, it is a question of *WHEN* and *WHETHER* it is MKI'zed or not. Which has been put to rest by Joey, rest assured if it doesnt get MKI'zed, i will have Joey's head.

Now, the order is definitely getting *split into two*. That is confirmed. So one of it is confirmed as MiG 35, the other is fairly certain, F/A-18E/F or maybe Rafale. But i think because of nuke deal, its certain to be F-18.

The administration can wish all it wants, but the order is still going to be split in two. One for Russia, other for America.
And i must say, we will again have the best fighter in the sub-continent with teh MiG 35 MKI. If its not MKI, then we'l have another sh*tty average joe plane in the continent.


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## MIG_ACE

Now tell me Malay how can u say that the "Split" is certain.There have been no indications from the IAFIf they were buying 200 aircraft they cud have split it.But recently they have steadfastly maintained that the deal is for 126 planes only.I dont think they will split.Which means the Mig-35 is 100% sure as we cant afford 126 F-18s.


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## Awesome

joey said:


> Asim There is no lobby here in huge IAF thing, our armed forces are not **** they will evaluate each inch and go for the one.
> 
> there is lobby but that doesnt really efefct the decision that much.



I'm pretty sure, as much as you know it too, that IAF wants the better plane, which is Mig-35.


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## Contrarian

MIG_ACE said:


> Now tell me Malay how can u say that the "Split" is certain.There have been no indications from the IAFIf they were buying 200 aircraft they cud have split it.But recently they have steadfastly maintained that the deal is for 126 planes only.I dont think they will split.Which means the Mig-35 is 100% sure as we cant afford 126 F-18s.



Wait and watch mate, i am certain that it is going to be a split. There are many more reasons, but let me give a few:

A split means that both Russia and US wil be kept in good spirits.
Going for a single plane means that it would take a hell of a time to get all the 126 planes, going for 2 would shorten this time considerably.
Going with the US plane gives us access to a very very wide range of armamants like i mentioned above. Going with the Russian plane gives us a Superb air superiority fighter. The US plane is an EXCELLENT air to ground platform, it is arguably the best plane in that role. it is also very expensive, so we can get it in limited numbers which opens the doors to US weapons along with giving us a very good fighter. The bulk of the deal is undoubtably going to go with the MiG.

And There are many more reasons mate.


btw the link that Joey wanted to give was prolly this:
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-f8FN_4owbKfGONIovBj2i8hUYkqWaQE-?cq=1&p=42


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## Neo

joey said:


> There is so much wrong informations in this forum and also in IDF sometimes, why dont you Neo invite some better guys from sinodefence/WAB/Keypub to increase the quality of discussion?



Go ahead, please do invite them on my behalf! :thumbsup:
The more the merrier!


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## vnomad

Asim Aquil said:


> I'm pretty sure, as much as you know it too, that IAF wants the better plane, which is Mig-35.


The better aircraft (and more expensive too) IMHO is the F-18E/F. Comes with the the best munitions the US has to offer, an AESA and most importantly a vastly reduced RCS. Its less 'athletic' than the MiG-35 but most A2A engagements are going to be BVR. A2G it is obviously the better aircraft. It'll got more scope for upgrades than the MiG-35 thank to unkil.


joey said:


> Vnomad> your nuts lol, why the hell will we use RD33K engines here? we are already moving ahead with GE404 which is used in Gripen and SR71 - Blackbird, not only the engine has less smoke it has better MTBF as usual american/british/european engines do.
> GE404 will give LCA a perfectly matched performance vis-a-vis Gripen provided there is AESA else it will LOSE.


I assumed 3D TVC would be a pretty nifty thing to have on the LCA. The RD-33K's power output is also significantly improved I've heard. Besides these engines will be produced indigenously, that's a +. But, I guess those in the higher echleons know what they are doing. 
The SR-71 Blackbird used Pratt and Whitney J58-1. The Pratt & Whitney J58-1 engines used in the Blackbird were the only military engines ever designed to operate continuously on afterburner.


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## joey

oops sorry i mixed up they F117 used Ge404 plus there is no reason to go for RD33K, we have our very own kaveri and that have to see its day even if it is late.
It has better T/W ratio than GE404 and more thrust.


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## vnomad

How does the RD-33K compare with the GE-404 as far as thrust, cost, engine life and servicebility go? The RD-33K has the advantage of being 3D TVC. The Gripen is more maneuverable than the LCA thanks to its canards. The LCA can beat that advantage if it gets the RD-33K.


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## blain2

vnomad said:


> How does the RD-33K compare with the GE-404 as far as thrust, cost, engine life and servicebility go? The RD-33K has the advantage of being 3D TVC. The Gripen is more maneuverable than the LCA thanks to its canards. The LCA can beat that advantage if it gets the RD-33K.



Russian engines suck in terms of MTTR and MTBO in comparison to the US and Western engines. The more stuff like TVN you throw into the mix, the bigger the reliability problems.

As an example, the MKI's engine's require an overhaul after every 1K hours, in contrast, the MTBO for the F-16's PW and GE engines is in the neighborhood of 4000 hours. The downside is the cost of the US and western engines and their susceptibility to sanctions etc.


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## niaz

blain2 said:


> Russian engines suck in terms of MTTR and MTBO in comparison to the US and Western engines. The more stuff like TVN you throw into the mix, the bigger the reliability problems.
> 
> As an example, the MKI's engine's require an overhaul after every 1K hours, in contrast, the MTBO for the F-16's PW and GE engines is in the neighborhood of 4000 hours. The downside is the cost of the US and western engines and their susceptibility to sanctions etc.



May be a stupid question, I was under the impression that av. life of a US fighter aircframe is 20 years or 4000 hours requiring a complete overhaul evey 10 years. If engine life is 4000 hours, does that imply that F-16 engine (PW F100/101) doesnot need overhaul at all?


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## Contrarian

vnomad, if we do get the MiG 35, then it will be fitted with the Israeli AESA, which is better than the one on the F-18 E/F. The best AESA US has is put in JSF, etc. And the Elta 2052, is comparable to them. So there goes one MAJOR advantage of the F-18. Next as regards to BVR engagements, we will have an AESA on MiG 35, we will have Meteor most probably, or else even Russia is developing its own ramjet BVRAAM. So though it will still be less, if we get meteor, then we are better off. Next off is WVRAAM. Python 5 is undoubtably the best, and that too will be up on the MiG 35. You may say that we can setup the python 5 on F-18 also, but no US plane can be fitted with Israeli avionics, summat i read, its happened recently, not like the old F-16I's.

As you know MiG 35 also has a low RCS, though not comparable to F-18, but low still. And Russia has also developed its own anti radar coating, which reduces RCS further still. And the 3d TVC, allows MiG 35 to evade missiles and bullets, etc much much much more easily. It is simply weird for the IAF to buy F-18, buying it fo the navy makes sense as it is a good a2g plane, it sucks big time in a2a. Only the aewsa and bvraam's of US save it. It would be pathetic in dog fights or evasive manouvers. 

In the India Pak context, there are still gonna be LOADS of dogfights, and very less BVR engagements compared to dogfights. So we would be foolish to get the F-18 for IAF, and very very wise to get F-18 for the Navy.


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## vips

Dear,

Why you are talking about the possibility that mig-35 will get this or get that in future.. as of current situation F-18 is far superior than current mig-35 .. 

Day of dogfights are over now.. even our mig-21 posses BVR missiles. So don't say that F-18 is uselss. F-18 will never have problem with dogfight as it will win it's battle over BVR missiles and AESA.. So no need to compare these aircrafts...

Hey kasim, I think you are right about BJP with the security decisions and problems.. It is possible that people will vote BJP ...

Man.. it was BJP who increased the defence budget and signed so much defence deals..


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## vnomad

malaymishra123 said:


> vnomad, if we do get the MiG 35, then it will be fitted with the Israeli AESA, which is better than the one on the F-18 E/F. The best AESA US has is put in JSF, etc. And the Elta 2052, is comparable to them.


Who declared it as best? The AN/APG-79 is a fantastic radar. The USN is going to fly the Super-hornet for the next fifteen to twenty years. 


> So there goes one MAJOR advantage of the F-18. Next as regards to BVR engagements, we will have an AESA on MiG 35, we will have Meteor most probably, or else even Russia is developing its own ramjet BVRAAM. So though it will still be less, if we get meteor, then we are better off.


The Meteor will most probably be modified to be carried on the F-18E/F too. The USN has made statements suggesting it.



> but no US plane can be fitted with Israeli avionics, summat i read, its happened recently, not like the old F-16I's.


US avionics are as good as any in the world except perhaps for those on the Eurofighter.


> As you know MiG 35 also has a low RCS, though not comparable to F-18, but low still. And Russia has also developed its own anti radar coating, which reduces RCS further still. And the 3d TVC, allows MiG 35 to evade missiles and bullets, etc much much much more easily.


No paint will allow the MiG-35 to reduce its RCS to Shornet level. The Shornet was designed to have a low RCS unlike the MiG-35 which appears to be designed for hyper-agility. The newer generation of FRAAMs will beat most aircrafts. 



> It is simply weird for the IAF to buy F-18, buying it fo the navy makes sense as it is a good a2g plane, it sucks big time in a2a. Only the aewsa and bvraam's of US save it. It would be pathetic in dog fights or evasive manouvers.


In A2G MiG-35 cannot be compared with the F-18E/F which comes with the best US munitions available. At A2A, I'd put my money on the F-18. Both aircraft will probably have comparable radar ranges, but a much lower RCS on the F-18 gives it a significant advantage. The best part about the F-18E/F is that the USN uses it. The will be no dearth of upgrades for it.



> In the India Pak context, there are still gonna be LOADS of dogfights, and very less BVR engagements compared to dogfights.


Huh? How did you come to that conclusion?


----------



## Neo

malaymishra123 said:


> In the India Pak context, there are still gonna be LOADS of dogfights, and very less BVR engagements compared to dogfights. So we would be foolish to get the F-18 for IAF, and very very wise to get F-18 for the Navy.



Huh?
Why would you go dogfighting in a netcentric warfare with BVR capability.
Please share your pov.


----------



## Contrarian

i mean that there are still going to be many dog fights in the Indo-Pak scenario.

MiG 35MKI'zed will beat the F-18 IMO. It too will have the best BVR capability matching the Shornet. So im saying that getting MiG35 for the IAF would be better. And buying a smaller amount of F-18's for the Navy will be a very snart choice because of the US a2g munitions.

IMO, the F-18 is faar better in a2g role and MiG 45MKI'zed would be better in the a2a role. Remember, this is a modded MiG35, with all the capabilites from different nations, not the normal MiG 35 that is only 'athletic'.


----------



## vnomad

> MiG 45MKI'zed would be better in the a2a role. Remember, this is a modded MiG35, with all the capabilites from different nations


In A2A today BVR counts not WVR. In BVR three things matter - radar, munitions and RCS. If we assume that the radar is equivalent, the Shornet wins on both counts. And wins significantly.


----------



## Contrarian

if we assume radar, most likely MiG MKI will use elta 2052 aesa radar 

rcs will not be as good, but it is still pretty low and will be further reduced.
munitions, we will have python and Russian ramjet BVRAAM, or maybe Meteor, so not really much of a difference!


----------



## vnomad

malaymishra123 said:


> rcs will not be as good, but it is still pretty low and will be further reduced.


No amount of radar coatings can substitute a stealthy design. The RCS of the MiG-35 will be much higher than the Shornet.


> munitions, we will have python and Russian ramjet BVRAAM, or maybe Meteor, so not really much of a difference!


Actually we have neither. We will have them somewhere in the near future. No point making them a factor now itself. The Shornet meanwhile comes with Aim-120C7 or Aim-120D both superior to the R-77.


----------



## Contrarian

you know i dont think there is any point discussing these things.

We will only know what happens when the trials are going on or the govt makes it decision.


----------



## Iceman2

u ppl don't have the birds and u r speculating as if u had them.
i give u a wise sugesstion it's an old adage that don't count your chickens until they hatch. and also don't count on americans that it will happen wen their interest ends they give bamboo.


----------



## vnomad

Iceman said:


> u ppl don't have the birds and u r speculating as if u had them.


Need I remind you of the speculation I've seen invoving the JF-17 and J-10. Neither one is serving in the PAF. Same goes for the Erieye and the F-16C/D that Pakistan will be getting. 

The IAF will be getting one of the birds - MiG 35, F-18E/F - or maybe both. Capabilities of the Shornet aren't speculation. They are available in the public domain. Same goes for the MiG-35. So what's the harm in discussing it.


----------



## Neo

vnomad said:


> Need I remind you of the speculation I've seen invoving the JF-17 and J-10. Neither one is serving in the PAF. Same goes for the Erieye and the F-16C/D that Pakistan will be getting.
> 
> The IAF will be getting one of the birds - MiG 35, F-18E/F - or maybe both. Capabilities of the Shornet aren't speculation. They are available in the public domain. Same goes for the MiG-35. So what's the harm in discussing it.



Only difference being that JF-17, J-10, F-16C/D and Erieye are all ordered, Mig-35 ans F-18E/F are not.


----------



## Neo

malaymishra123 said:


> you know i dont think there is any point discussing these things.
> 
> We will only know what happens when the trials are going on or the govt makes it decision.



Agreed! :thumbsup:


----------



## vnomad

Neo said:


> Only difference being that JF-17, J-10, F-16C/D and Erieye are all ordered, Mig-35 ans F-18E/F are not.


You really think that there is a possibility of neither being procured? One of them(if not both) will be procured. This is a fact and not speculation. I didn't know that the J-10 had been ordered. I know that PAF officials have confirmed that it is to be procured but I though nothing has been signed as yet. When do deliveries of the J-10 begin?


----------



## Neo

vnomad said:


> You really think that there is a possibility of neither being procured? One of them(if not both) will be procured. This is a fact and not speculation. I didn't know that the J-10 had been ordered. I know that PAF officials have confirmed that it is to be procured but I though nothing has been signed as yet. When do deliveries of the J-10 begin?



MRCA deal has been in the pipeline for some 6 years or so, I'm not sure when it will be materialised.
But if the rumors that Super Hornet is somehow linked to civil nuclear deal are correct, a deal should be signed early next year as the nuclear deal is approved now.

Tanveer Mahmood indeed mentioned purchase of J-10 with possible deliveries starting from 2011.
Chinese media however hasn't confirmed the deal yet.


----------



## vnomad

> Tanveer Mahmood indeed mentioned purchase of J-10 with possible deliveries starting from 2011.
> Chinese media however hasn't confirmed the deal yet.


So nothing is been signed yet.


----------



## TomCat111

Neo said:


> I think I posted it somewhere in the military multimedia section.
> I'll try to find it.
> 
> Here's another one, poor quality though.



[YOUTUBE]




Here is a better quality video, but its very long and boring.


----------



## himeed

Hi all, any chance of us acquiring such stuff in future..from china maybe??


----------



## EagleEyes

Chinese dont produce MIG-35. It is a Russian product, so no we cannot acquire anything like that in the future, but it is not needed for PAF anyways.

PAF doesn't prefer turkeys, but real falcons.


----------



## himeed

ok then in that case,is f-22 or f-35 a reality??


----------



## EagleEyes

himeed said:


> ok then in that case,is f-22 or f-35 a reality??



No, they cannot be in service for Pakistan for another 35 years, not just that Pakistan will not have permission to acquire them, but also it cannot afford them.

PAF could go for the other alternatives which include Chinese J-XX (May be J-13, or J-14) which has a long way to go in development, otherwise it will just go for Typhoon or Rafale when their price tag comes down.


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## Janbaz

WebMaster said:


> PAF doesn't prefer turkeys, but real falcons.



European or American eagles to be precise!:flag:. American or European planes are the real Eagles in todays world.


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## himeed

pakistan cannot afford a European eagle and the best American eagles are not for sale to Pakistan.Furthermore the enemy has turkeys that can bring down our eagles and are acquiring more advanced turkeys through PAK FA ,we have no choice but to try and acquire turkeys.Furthermore these eagles are also being offered to the enemy who are in the need of 126 MCRA's and are in a better position to but these eagles than we are..so i dont know what we can do.:army:


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## EagleEyes

PAF being a minimum deterrence force is alright with JF-17, J-10, Advanced F-16s, and few old aircrafts. Other aircrafts can be acquired later on if needed.


----------



## Neo

These purchases are only the start, we've to replace whole existing PAF fleet first, expansion will come later from 2012 and on.

We'll see more hyper modern fighters like Typhoon, Rafale or even the J-XX in PAF colors in future.


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## Bull

Janbaz said:


> European or American eagles to be precise!:flag:. American or European planes are the real Eagles in todays world.



What abt the chineese planes?


----------



## EagleEyes

Bull said:


> What abt the chineese planes?



We will let you decide that.  Plus, i dont know why we have changed names. LMAO, aircraft names are fine.


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## Neo

WebMaster said:


> i dont know why we have changed names. LMAO, aircraft names are fine.



I was just thinking the same...imagine JF-17 Thunder Turkey of LCA Flying Duck...sounds hilarious.


----------



## Contrarian

http://www.aviapedia.com/fighters/mig-29vft-video-smotr

MiG 35

Excellent, exclusive material prepared by &#8220;Smotr&#8221; tv-program team from NTV Russian channel. Russian language, translation in this post.

The &#8220;fighter of the future&#8221; from &#8220;Stealth&#8221; movie demonstrates us the &#8220;Kulbit&#8221; figure, which is supposed to be the science fiction for todays fighter aircraft. However Russian Su-37 and Mig-29VFT (Mig-29OVT) equipped with thrust vectoring engine nozzles have already became centerpiece of every airshow.

Mig-29VFT FulcrumMig-29OVT is almost ready to enter serial production. This aircraft became the star of MAKS 2005 airshow.
It is Mig-29M - the new modification that is supposed to replace basic Mig-29. Its main shape differences - &#8220;teeth&#8221; on the fin, the more sharp front edge and missing additional air intake. There were only 6 such planes built before 1991. One of them received engine with thrust vectoring engine nozzles. This particular feature allows Mig-29OVT to perform unique flying. It can fly tail forward, make flips and perform &#8220;boomerang&#8221; aerobatic figure.

&#8220;Performance capabilities of VFT engine you were able to see today on the show. The main task of this flight was to demonstrate that due to vectoring throttle flight in zero-speed and negative-speed (tail forward movements) areas became to be fully controlled in distinction from previous modifications of planes like Mig-29 and Su-27, which could only temporarily get into this area while performing Kobra, for example.&#8221; - says Pavel Vlasov, test-pilot, the Hero of Russia.

Mig-29VFT FulcrumAirplane. The hardware, that opposite to the balloons is heavier then the air. There were times when simple fact of such hardware flight was taken like a great achievement. First aircrafts were highly maneuverable and could land on any relatively flat surface. Then it was the speed to come. And it was the price to pay for it - lowering down of maneuvering abilities and much more hard requirements for the flight strip. Concrete rolls for take-offs and landings were needed. Hundreds of meters were required for aircraft to perform a simple turn. In 60&#8217;s on the West and in USSR appeared jet aircraft of vertical take-off and landing - Harrier and Yak-38. The &#8220;heli&#8221; style performance was achieved by usage of rotable nozzle extensions. They directed the exhaust down. During the first flight it became clear that the controlled thrust vector gives planes great advantage during the dogfight maneuvers. So were started works on the thrust vectoring engines. The main mission was to increase the maneuvering abilities of general fighters and attack planes with usual take-off and landing rolls.

Mig-29VFT FulcrumGreat flight performance Mig-29OVT gets thanks to the engines - two RD-133. The main difference from the other engines - ability to change thrust vector.

From the beginning moveable engine nozzles were tryed to create in two variants.
The most simple, so-called &#8220;flat&#8221; one consists only of 4 vanes. Such construction allows to change thrust vector only in two ways - horizontal and vertical. Besides, if to make it more reliable and less radar-detectible it becomes to be very heavy and massive.

The more advanced variant is OVT (VFT) equipped with round turning nozzles. This unique moving flower of steel makes possible the thrust vector deflection in any direction which makes the plane phenomenally maneuverable.

Mig-29VFT FulcrumPugachev&#8217;s &#8220;Kobra&#8221; not so long time ago amazed people. Sukhoi fighters were &#8220;The Kings of the Maneuver&#8221; for the last several years. Klimov design bureau engineers were a little bit late with their Mig&#8217;s new engine development. But the main idea of the vectored thrust they&#8217;ve implemented on the completely new level. MAKS 2005 airshow clearly demonstrated Sukhoi design bureau product received very strong competitor - Mig-29OVT. Opposite to the Sukhoi engine nozzle that allows to change thrust vector only in one dimension, Mig-29 engine nozzles are full-aspect. Controlling devices are hidden under three cowlings, positioned 120 degrees from each other, which allows to deflect nozzle in any destination. Thrust vector deflects for the approximately 15 degrees.
First flight of Mig-29OVT was performed by the test-pilot Pavel Vlasov, the Hero of Russia in august 2003. Despite of bad prognosis the flight proved the highest engines reliability.

Mig-29VFT Fulcrum&#8220;Everybody is afraid the lifetime cycle of this moveable hardware will be very short. To the honor of engine manufacturer I need to say that during 2 years of test flights not even one small part both in engines and nozzles were replaced.&#8221; - says Pavel Vlasov.

The demonstration flight of Mig-29OVT on MAKS2005 was performed under endless applauses. You could think it&#8217;s not the aircraft but UFO in the air which can move against all the physic laws. &#8220;Double Kulbit&#8221;, &#8220;Boomerang&#8221;, another &#8220;Kulbit&#8221;. All this aerobatics is not only about to impress the show visitors and to attract the potentional buyer&#8217;s attention. Successful usage of these figures in the dogfights will not leave any chance to the opponent - there is no need to get on enemy&#8217;s tail hardly and spending time - flash-like flip and the plane is in the aim of rapid-fire gun.

Mig-29VFT FulcrumThough the plane is equipped with thrust vectoring engine, cockpit view almost didn&#8217;t change - only one switch was added: &#8220;OVT mode on/off.&#8221;

For today Mig-29OVT exists only in a single copy. But against to it&#8217;s west competitors it can be put into series production in the nearest time.

&#8220;There is no serial production of planes of that level or just &#8220;ready to go into series&#8221; stage prototypes in the world.&#8221; - says Pavel Vlasov.

The fact that thrust vectoring engine nozzles gives plane exclusive maneuvering abilities is obvious. But is it really necessary? Does the dogfight have a future? This discussion goes already for tens of years - since aircraft started to be equipped with effective air-to-air missiles. The dogfight opposition says aircraft equipped with modern air-to-air missiles just will not allow the enemy plane to get close.

Mig-29VFT FulcrumThe weapon development process puts the dogfight existence under the big question. And the same process gave an answer - yes, dogfight will stay.

Modern countermeasures systems allow fighters to avoid opponent&#8217;s missiles more and more effective. The number of carried long- and medium-range air-to-air missiles is very limited on every plane. After their launch they will have to start the dogfight - and here the victory will belong to the vectored thrust planes. Planes like Mig-29OVT.

Chk the website for some awsome pics of the MiG 35.


----------



## HAIDER

Don t you guys think russian planes are more acrobatic rather real combat aircraft...


----------



## Contrarian

HAIDER said:


> Don t you guys think russian planes are more acrobatic rather real combat aircraft...



one example to answer your querry:
Su-30*MKI*


----------



## HAIDER

Recently reading american pilot analysis, about russian combat aircraft agility and maneuverability . In active combat zone maneuverability of russian plane is not a plus point at all, because whenever russian plane maneuvers it reduce the speed, so low that it can get hit easily, and burn lot of fuel when again picks up the speed.


----------



## Keysersoze

HAIDER said:


> Recently reading american pilot analysis, about russian combat aircraft agility and maneuverability . In active combat zone maneuverability of russian plane is not a plus point at all, because whenever russian plane maneuvers it reduce the speed, so low that it can get hit easily, and burn lot of fuel when again picks up the speed.



Haider It can be used to evade missiles. All aircraft lose energy during maneuvers. 
I think you mis-read the report....


----------



## HAIDER

Do you guys think in BVR zone you take the risk of slowing down speed to almost 200 mil/hr..lol..Well incase of F16, i have noticed it never reduce the speed changing the path in certain directions....
Do you guys think russian engine are fuel efficient like american ?..


----------



## Keysersoze

HAIDER said:


> Do you guys think in BVR zone you take the risk of slowing down speed to almost 200 mil/hr..lol..Well incase of F16, i have noticed it never reduce the speed changing the path in certain directions....
> Do you guys think russian engine are fuel efficient like american ?..



The only way a F-16 doesn't lose speed is when it goes into a dive.


----------



## Owais

HAIDER said:


> ....
> Do you guys think russian engine are fuel efficient like american ?..



well you are right. americal engines are more feul efficient than russian engines but russians engines are excellent in TVC.


----------



## niaz

HAIDER said:


> Do you guys think in BVR zone you take the risk of slowing down speed to almost 200 mil/hr..lol..Well incase of F16, i have noticed it never reduce the speed changing the path in certain directions....
> Do you guys think russian engine are fuel efficient like american ?..



Aerodynamics make it impossible to turn in tight circles at high speed due to a basic force 'Inertia'. Try turning in a car at high speed if you have any doubts.

No matter which aircraft, a turn means reduction in velocity. Only way to reduce the effects of inertia is to make the aircraft unstable and to counter effect of inertia with energy. This was first possible in the Harrier where engine nozzles could be used to change the direction of engine exhuast flow but this was only up and down not sideways. In modern days all 4th generation aircrafts are unstable and have energy manouvering called 'thrust vectoring'.

If one examines the sate of the art fighters such as f-22 and F-35, all have two essential plus over the 5th generation airctraft ( Typhoon). Both have stealth ( making it difficult to spot) and thrust vectoring to dodge the missiles.

Russians produces more oil than Saudi Arabia ( they almost export as much as KSA) and thus are less worried about fuel efficiecy. May be that is the reason why Russian Engines are less fuel efficient.


----------



## Contrarian

HAIDER said:


> Recently reading american pilot analysis, about russian combat aircraft agility and maneuverability . In active combat zone maneuverability of russian plane is not a plus point at all, because whenever russian plane maneuvers it reduce the speed, so low that it can get hit easily, and burn lot of fuel when again picks up the speed.



My previous post:

*TVC is very very useful, which is why all the new generation planes are trying to get TVC in them, inlcluding the Super J-10.
3-D TVC is very useful to dodge missiles. The main purpose of TVC is that the plane does not lose energy while turning. TVC gives the plane Super-Manouverability. The Su-30MKI, despite being very big is superbly manouvereable, just because of its 2-D TVC. MiG 35 would be able to twist an turn with a very very low loss or speed, that is why TVC is considered so good. It gives an exceptional advantage in dog fights, and in evasive manouvers against missiles, etc. I quote the capability of the 2-D TVC in the 



Su-30MKI:

Thrust Vectoring Control: The 2D TVC makes an aircraft highly maneuverable. The aircraft is capable of near-zero airspeed at high angles of attack and dynamic aerobatics in negative speeds up to 200 km/h.

Aerodynamics
* The integral aerodynamic configuration combined with thrust vectoring results in practically unlimited manoeuvrability and unique taking off and landing characteristics.

* The Su-30MKI has no level winged AoA limitations: it can fly at even 180 degree AoA and still recover. This high super-agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew.

* The canard notably assists in controlling the aircraft at large angles of attack (AoA) and bringing it to a level flight condition. The wing will have high-lift devices featured as deflecting leading edges and flaperons acting the flaps and ailerons.

Click to expand...


It also gives the plane the ability to turn rapidly and re-enter combat in a favourable position or inclination so as to launch missiles. As is quoted above. a WVR fight with a TVC plane would be very much a mistake unless the opposing a/c has an advantage wrt its positioning. Ofcourse, this does not apply to a BVR fight, where things are heading nowadays. Still, without losing energy dodging, gives it an advantage to dodge missiles.*



This is JUST for 2-D TVC in the Su-30MKI, MiG 35MKI will have 3-D TVC. Essentially, it would be a very big folly to get into a dogfight with a MiG 35.
The Russians have mastered the art of TVC. MiG 35 is the first plane in the world to feature 3-D TVC. The americans are only now playing catch up, in their entire inventory only F-22 has TVC and that too only 2-D. 

As regards to avionics in the MiG 35, the Russians have said that the crowning glory of their avionics development is the MiG 35. The best avionics with many components from their space programme have been put on the MiG 35, it is unparalleled. You have seen the cockpit of the MiG 35, however even at that time, it was not fixed. The FINAL version of the MiG 35 or the production version has been displayed only at the Aero India 2007. Apart from that, whatever India deems best in the world in avionics goes in the plane, however in MiG 35's case, i doubt it would be required. Only the radar might be changed and weaponry.


----------



## Contrarian

niaz said:


> In modern days all 4th generation aircrafts are unstable and have energy manouvering called 'thrust vectoring'.



No mate, very very few aircrafts have TVC. Almost all 4th generation planes are unstable and thus use the FBW system, not TVC


----------



## niaz

malaymishra123 said:


> No mate, very very few aircrafts have TVC. Almost all 4th generation planes are unstable and thus use the FBW system, not TVC




I meant to write :

"In modern days all 4th generation aircrafts are unstable and 5th generation have energy manouvering called 'thrust vectoring'. " You can see that it is a natural follow on from my my earlier sentence. 

Never the less, I ommitted '5th generation' in text - you are 100% correct. I appologise for my error.


----------



## Bull

Are you people seriously saying a fighter pilot can evade a locked on missile by outmanouvering/outrunning it ?


----------



## melb4aust

Bull said:


> Are you people seriously saying a fighter pilot can evade a locked on missile by outmanouvering/outrunning it ?




From my point of view, its not that easy the way these guyz are talking about, or perhaps its impossible, flares or flirs can do this job plus the jammers n stuff but the *TVC* i really doubt it. 
Outmanouvering the missile travelling at speed of more than Mach-4 while having ur own jet travelling at high speed with reaction time of few milliseconds, pilot need extra extra......extra ordinary skills to that. 
Its not something like or close to "Behind the enemy lines"


----------



## vnomad

It will help in turning it from head-on engagement to a tail chase much faster. The jet can outrun the missile(read range not speed).


TVC also helps in getting to an optimum firing position faster. The MKI's climbing rate for example is fantastic.


----------



## Contrarian

TVC improves the chances of winning dog-fights straight by two times atleast.
Its very very importanti dogfights and in many other areas. Its vital.


----------



## Bull

malaymishra123 said:


> TVC improves the chances of winning dog-fights straight by two times atleast.
> Its very very importanti dogfights and in many other areas. Its vital.



But with everybody moving to BVR, dog fights may become a thing of the past.


----------



## Owais

Bull said:


> But with everybody moving to BVR, dog fights may become a thing of the past.



TVC is not even soo effective against A-darter or AIM-9X in close combat. PAF will be getting A-Darter for thunders


----------



## vnomad

Owais said:


> TVC is not even soo effective against A-darter or AIM-9X in close combat. PAF will be getting A-Darter for thunders



The MiG-35 will be armed with the Python 5 probably. Its an interesting comparision - A-darter vs Python 5.

Python 5

The Python 5 is currently the most capable short-range AAM in Israel's inventory. It has BVR (beyond visual range), LOAL (lock-on after launch), and all-aspect, all-direction (including backward) attack capability. The missile has an advanced electro-optical imaging seeker that scans the target area for hostile aircraft, then locks-on for terminal chase. [10]

Length - 310 cm 
Span - 64 cm 
Diameter - 16 cm 
Weight - 103.6 kg 
Guidance - IR + Electro-Optical Imaging 
Warhead - 11 kg 
Range - >20 km 
Speed - Mach 4 


Could someone please post the specs of the A-Darter.


----------



## Owais

*A-Darter *
A fifth-generation air-to-air missile system

A-Darter is a fifth-generation air-to-air missile system designed to meet the challenges of future air combat against next generation fighters in a hostile ECM environment.

System Features


High agility to handle the closest of close combats 

A thermal imaging seeker with high sensitivity and a multi-mode ECCM suite

A low-drag wingless airframe, ensuring ranges far beyond those of traditional short-range missiles

Lock-on after launch and memory tracking capabilities

A lightweight design compatible with traditional Sidewinder stations 

http://www.denel.co.za/Aerospace/MISSILES.asp

specifications

lenght 2990mm
diameter 166mm
wingspan 488mm
mass 89Kg


----------



## Contrarian

Bull said:


> But with everybody moving to BVR, dog fights may become a thing of the past.



Its there for atleast 10 more years. And its not JUST dogfights in which TVC is vital. With TVC a plane can dictate its terms of entry and fire. It can rapidly gain height turn etc to shoot. It will dictate the terms of engagement in any and every scenario. In case of detection of an incomming missile, it can immediately change course without losing speed and flee. Its a very vital component.

Why do you think if according to you TVC is not required, that F-22 has TVC now when the earlier USAF planes did not? According to you then, the earlier planes should have had TVC, as that was the era of dog fights?


----------



## Contrarian

*DUEL OF THE CONTINENTS*

*RUSSIA And USA FIGHT FOR THE INDIAN MARKET FOR THE COMBAT AVIATION*


In the course of the international aerospace exhibition Aero India 2007, which passed of 7-11 February to Bangalore, as a whole were determined basic competitors in the tender to the purchase of 126 lightweight fighters for VVS of India. Them, in all likelihood, will be THE USA and Russia. Firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin presented in Bangalore fighters F -18e/f and F -16c/d, and Russian aircraft-construction corporation "MiG" - its best of the accessible to foreign customers product - MiG-35. As is known, in the tender must participate also Eurofighter Typhoon, French Rafale firms Dassault Aviation, and also Gripen, developed by the Swedish company SAAB.
Besides the companies from Russia and USA, the full-scale version of its fighter in Bangalore represented only SAAB. Gripen actively participated in the demonstration flights, the separate pavilion was expanded for the information of the visitors of exhibition about characteristics and possibilities of this machine. However, in spite of the very active advance of this product, Swedish fighter appears by the explicit outsider of the tender. Indeed in its weight parameters it is very close to the created in India according to program LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) fighter Tejas, which can be named its kind the "sacred cow" for the country, which intensely develops its own aircraft industry.

Judging by the absence of the noticeable activity Eurofighter and Dassault Aviation on the Indian market, it seems that the Europeans no longer expect to win this tender. Although for the sake of fairness it should be noted that in the course of airshow creators Typhoon proposed to India to participate in the cooperation of four European countries to work on the current and promising projects.

*"TENDER WILL BE DIFFICULT"*

American firms and the RSK "MiG" exchanged in course of Aero India 2007 some number of interesting PR-steps. The Calculation has been opened by MiG-35. The creators of this machine conducted its presentation for the journalists even before the official open of the exhibition, on 6 February. To the gathering at rest journalists MiG-35 it was presented without the nose fairing, i.e., RLS "Beetle- AE" (radar Zhuk-AE) with the impulse phased antenna cascade (AFAR) was for the first time opened for the inspection to the representatives for the foreign MEDIA.

The taken nose fairing did not leave doubts about the fact that on MiG-35 is actually established the radar AFAR.



No one western aspirant to the Indian tender RLS AFAR in Bangalore showed thing like this. The Europeans simply do not have a finished product. Americans, apparently, could not obtain permission to the demonstration abroad of sensitive technologies, thus confirming the reputation of partner, who does not desire to share secrets.

The General director - the design project leader OF RSK "MiG" Aleksey Fedorov also considers that the basic fight for the victory in the Indian tender will unroll between MiG-35, from one side, and by the American F -16 and F/a-18 - with another. "The tender will be difficult, but to attain victory in it Ã¢â¬â will be great honor for us ", noted the leader OF RSK "MiG". In the opinion of Aleksey Fedorov, who has enormous work experience on the Indian market, present tender will be by an order more complex than that competition, on conditions of which in its time Su-30MKI were created. Indeed for the first time the tender of purchase of multifunctional fighters for AF of India is conducted through all international standards. In the opinion of Aleksey Fedorov, the tender is not de jure thus far declared, but de facto has already been carried out. As is known, has already been completed the first stage, which provided for the proposition collection from potential participants (RFI). The second stage now is prepared: participants must obtain demand to proposal (RFP). In the opinion of experts, Indian side will be determined with the selection of new multifunctional fighter precisely before this second stage and demand to the proposal will be oriented on the leader. However, when the second stage starts, is not clear yet. In the course of airshow the Minister of Defense of India Arakkaparambil Antoni stated that this will occur "very soon".

*LEADER OF THE FAMILY*

MiG-35, for the first time represented abroad, relates to the standardized family of the aircraft of generation 4++, into which they enter also MiG-29K/KUB and MiG-29M/M2. The airframe of the multifunctional fighters of this family, in comparison with the base MiG-29, underwent the deepest changes. Actually, it was designed anew so that the service life of new machines would compose 6 thousand flying hour or even 40 years of service. In the construction of glider the composite materials are widely used. In the course of presentation MiG-35 into Bangalore the deputy Director-General - the design project leader OF RSK "MiG", director of engineering center "OKB im. A.I. of Mikoyan" Vladimir Barkovsky described, why MiG-29KUB left to the tests by no color. According to him, this machine is not planned to color also sufficiently prolonged time, since it must play the role of the demonstrator of the new technologies, used for the creation of the airframe of the aircraft of family. The portion of composites in them reaches 15% - all gray panels of fuselage and tail assembly of that represented during January MiG-29KUB are made precisely from this material. Large changes touched wing construction. Its nose became double-hinged, with the large angle of deflections. Are developed more powerful trailing edge, double-slot flap. Is for the first time vortex shield delivered in the combat vehicle. As a result of all these measures the aerodynamics of aircraft was noticeably improved.

For the first time in Russia the fighters of this family not will have oxygen cylinders Ã¢â¬â instead of them the oxygen station, which divides air into that enriched by oxygen and enriched by nitrogen, is established. According to Vladimir Barkovsky, all aircraft systems - power supply, hydraulics, etc. - in the machines of family they will be completely new. MiG-35, as other representatives of family, it has an equipment of inflight refueling, and also it can come out as the tanker in its group. Are renovated the systems of the rescuing of crew. On MiG-35 is used the technology of the burning-out of lamp, which makes it possible to make safe for the pilots ejection at the low speeds and the heights.

On MiG-35 are established two engines RD -33MK, which have to 7% high thrust, than its predecessors. In the construction of power plant is inculcated the numerical system of control ( FADEC), its resource is increased up to 4 thousands hours. At will of customers, the engine can be equipped with thrust vectoring. According to Vladimir Barkovsky, OVT makes it possible to increase 1.5-2 times its effectiveness in the close air battle. It's known that the share of close combat in modern air warfare does not exceed 10%, but this is the final and frequently decisive stage of the battle. Furthermore, on the assertion of the engineering center director OF "OKB Mikoyan", the nozzle with OVT makes possible to preserve control for the aircraft under the conditions, when its speed is very small and the plane surface does not work.

It is natural that the new fighters OF RSK "MiG" have "glass" cab with three indicators with the size of 6x8 inches in the forward compartment and four analogous panels - in the rear (in the two-place version), the numerical system of control of aircraft and of engine. It is natural that also MiG-29K/KUB, MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-35 are equipped with the newest onboard radio-electronic equipment. The Main difference of MiG-35 from the remaining planes of the family is its radar. The proposed for the Indian tender multifunctional fighter has acting AFAR "Zhuk- AE". As Vladimir Barkovsky stated, at present two radars of this type are produced, one of which was established on the aircraft, the second - tests on the stand.

According to the first deputy design project leader - the chief designer of the corporation "synchro-cyclotron -NIIR" Yuri gus'kov, the range of "Zhuk- AE" is approximately one and a half times more than usual locator. Yu. gus'kov added that the range now comprises "about 150 km, and it can be considerably more". The radar works in the X-band and ensures the beam deflection in the range + -60 of degrees. Because of the operating speed of radar AFAR is ensured a constant target tracking even with the salient maneuverability characteristics of the MiG-35. Its Electronic scanning makes possible to simultaneously ensure the "air-to-air" and "air-surface" regimes, to work with the group and individual targets, to determine their type and class. "Zhuk- AE" automatically sets on the tracking of any discovered targets, and then ranks them, selecting the most dangerous.

The AFAR will be considerably more reliable than the radars of traditional construction, since the failure to 10% of receiving-transmitting modules (PPM) does not lead to the refusal of entire radar, i.e., to the curtailment of its functions. In the antenna array of that demonstrated in Bangalore "Zhuk- AE" are 680 PPM, grouped by the assembled 4 elements. Subsequently in the series models the diameter of antenna array will be increased and a quantity PPM will grow to 1064.


It is important to note that "the Zhuk -M3" completely consists from the elements of pure Russian origin. As a whole AFAR is made on the "synchro-cyclotron". The PPMs are made by NPF "mikran", and the basic element of the receiving-transmitting module - monolithic integrated circuits - were made in NII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE for semiconductor devices. Both these enterprises are located in Tomsk (Siberia). The first model of "Zhuk- AE" is prepared on the base of the radars, created earlier by the serial technology. In particular, it uses computing system that includes the data processor , signal processor, master oscillator with the synchronizer, and receiver. Subsequently it is planned to establish new computing system, and also wide-band and multifunctional master oscillator. This will make possible to decrease the length of radar and to place additional aircraft systems at the freed space.

One additional "mithai" of MiG-35 is its new optico- locating station (OLS), developed in NII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE precision instrument manufacture - earlier this scientific and industrial organization worked in essence in the interests of space branch. OLS contains the front and lower stations, which work in the average infrared and the video ranges, and also the carrying out functions of the laser range-finder, which can work, also, for the illumination of purposes during the guidance of weapon. In the forward half sphere the system works in the range +/- 90 degrees on the bearing angle and from -15 to +60 degrees on the height, and lower optical "sphere" attends entire lower hemisphere. The range of detection of purposes by front station is 15 km, by lower station - to 45 km (OLS it will recognize tank at a distance to 20 km, ship Ã¢â¬â up to 40 km).

The radar, OLS and special sensors, mounted on the endings is wing MiG-35, are united into the unique defense complex. All these systems fix the launches of rockets and determine, aimed rocket at the aircraft. Then trajectory and distance of weapon, the type of the missile guidance is determined. The irradiation of aircraft by laser beam is also recovered. The command to the shooting of IR traps or setting of interferences reveals according to the results of collection and information processing, then the vector direction for the deviation from the attack is given to pilot. The complex of defense reveals the launches of rockets "air-to-air" at the distance of 30 km, those of rockets "surface-to-air" - on 50 km, sholder-launched missiles - on 10 km, the detection of dangerous rockets is achieved at a distance not less than 4 km and the laser irradiation "is identified" from the distance of 30 km.

MiG-35 it is proposed for the export with the standard collection of the air facilities of defeat. However, for Aero India 2007 the developers of aircraft saved up novelty - for the "work" on the earth now is proposed the cruise missile of the distant radius of action with the active homing head 3m14- AE, development of Ekaterinburg OKB "novator".
*
PRELIMINARY SUMS*

Between two basic competitors of MiG-35 in the Indian tender only F/a-18 E/F has a radar with the impulse phased cascade. However, according to the behind-the-scene information of Russian delegation on Aero India 2007, the aircraft of this type participated in the salon had usual radar. Then the air attachÃÂ© of the embassy OF THE USA in India in the interview for newspaper Times of India made the truly American statement: "buying F -16 or F/a-18, you buy America". Such motion is rather curious, although for nevertheless the Indian side worthwhile to remember that THE USA clearly will not go to so complete transfer of the technologies for the license production of aircraft, as Russia proposes. Furthermore, from the side of Washington completely it is possible to expect different kind of unfriendly steps, for example the introduction of economic sanctions in the case of the "unsatisfactory behavior" of the partners. But this can seriously complicate the license release, and then the operation of American aircraft in India in such a case.

Within the framework of advance MiG-35 the corporation "MiG" granted to the pilots of Indian AF to test this aircraft in the matter. The Majors Adj puri and Skvodran prasant, that fly on the fighters MiG-23 and Jaguar respectively, obtained the possibility to rise into the sky on MiG-35 and to carry out a number of the figures of pilotage. As the reciprocal step the Americans "rolled" on F/a-18 and F -16 the owner of the Tata group company 69- year old Ratan tatu. The Impression from the demonstration of American technology in the Yelahanka sky , where the airshow was conducted, was somewhat greased by incidents with the F -16 aircraft - in one of them the brakes were necessary to change, after they were burnt with the landing, and in the second incident something happened for the front steadfast of F-16's chassis, as a result of which this machine was taken from the flights.

The common impression from Aero India 2007 thus , that Russia presented in tender MMRCA not only the best aircraft, but also the best conditions of its delivery. First of all this is connected with deepest transfer of license to its production in enterprises of HAL corporation. In the opinion of the first deputy of general director - the design project leader OF RSK Sergey tsivilev's "MiG", this was explained by the fact that "we have enormous work experience with India on the license contracts for transfer of licensed MiG-21, MiG-27 and Su-30MKI". Furthermore, the signed agreement for licensed production of the "Klimov" RD -33 of series 3 engines, developed in Petersburg, must play its role .

Ilya Kedrov
Bangalor- Moscow
http://www.vpk-news.ru/article.asp?pr_sign=archive.2007.173.articles.defence_01


----------



## Contrarian

An excellent article on the MiG 35's avionics.




> http://www.aviapedia.com/video/new-mig-35-ols-video
> 
> Amazing material about new Optical Locator System (OLS) of MiG-35. Smotr program from NII PP - Science and research institute of precise instruments, which has won the MiG corporation tender for the new MiG-35 OLS.
> 
> The newest Russian fighter MiG-35 has become a star of latest airshow Ã¢â¬ÅAero India 2007&#8243;. Visitors werenÃ¢â¬â¢t able to get their eyes out of this plane. Foreign pilots had felt a big luck if they were able to have a test flight on 4++ generation fighter.
> 
> But from the most beginning almost nobody has paid attention to some new features in the overall view of the plane. Only most attentive experts have spotted the new shape of the onboard OLS (optical locator station) and some new elements on the plane. It says a lot for the specialists. MiG corporation team didnÃ¢â¬â¢t make a secret out of it - on the airshow in Bangalore MiG-35 has presented completely new Russian product - OLS. It has attracted a lot of specialistsÃ¢â¬â¢ attention, today in the world there is no similar systems.
> 
> It looks like the development of such a system took dozens of years. But current project has started only several years ago. It has begun from the visit of MiG specialists to the NII PP - Federal space agency science and research institute of the precise instruments.
> 
> 
> Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅOne day we met RSK MiG deputy chief designer and he has asked us a simple question: Ã¢â¬ÅDo you know avionics?Ã¢â¬Â. We answered him that in general yes, but never had such developments. He said that it is very good and gave us several technical task definitions to check. And asked us not to discuss it with professional avionics designers.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> Such unusual request was explained very easily. MiG engineers were looking for people who could do OLS development from zero, ignoring existing experience. Only this way it was possible to make a completely new system in short time period.
> 
> *MiG engineers have defined basic points of the optical locator system development:
> - multispectrality. System should work both in visible and IR ranges
> - integrity. TV and IR systems, laser ranging system should be united in one solid construction
> - system should work on wide angles, up to 360 and identify shapes of aerial and ground targets*
> 
> 
> Before this meeting with MiG specialists, NII PP was dealing mostly with space technologies - it was developing devices for the communication and instruments for the space vehicles movements parameters measuring.
> 
> *Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅBy that time we had good experience. Our orbit ranging systems for the tasks of mapping were in space for about 50 times already. It was built the net of laser stations to detect changes in space vehicles evolutions. We had a very good progress in laser space communication systems too.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> Right now you may see the newest laser communication system. Soon this exact device will be delivered to the ISS and will provide Russian spacemen with stable wide data channel with Earth. Space devices from the GLONAS (Russian global navigation system) net are equipped with NII PP instruments.
> Even on the satellites of the GPS and Galileo systems there are deflectors created here, in the NII PP.
> *
> 
> It is well-known that devices on the unmanned space vehicles should meet two main requirements. The First one is reliability.
> 
> Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅIf some device becomes unserviceable it means failure of all the mission, it is loss of really big money. It is cost of spacerocket, space unit, itÃ¢â¬â¢s unfullfilled obligations.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> Second requirement: devices should be built using hi-tech technologies. Besides, it should have maximal functionality, minimal weight, meet extremely wide requirements by the temperature and mechanical influence, and in addition - should work without any service for a long time.
> 
> Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅWe get used to it. We always had to do really reliable high-tech devices. This what starting requirements were again.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> *Technical solutions tested on the spaceships were put into basement for the new OLS complex of MiG-35 fighter.*
> It was announced tender on the new OLS for the MiG fighters and terms were defined.
> 
> Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅWe have put a task for a very small time limits, itÃ¢â¬â¢s very unusual for the development. Besides it was the first time we met business relationships, when it is Ã¢â¬Ånow or neverÃ¢â¬Â. There is no time to wait. There is nobody to complain to. And there is nobody to ask for additional funds.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> Main competitors of the NII PP in this tender were developers of the first OLS with their huge experience.
> 
> Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅAnd then it started. When the first test flights took place, everybody started to believe in us because of results we have shown.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅNew OLS is much more effective. Two-three times only by range. Old OLS didnÃ¢â¬â¢t have TV channel, so it means no picture at all - no TV, no IR. ThatÃ¢â¬â¢s why some of the functions just was impossible to implement.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> At the end of the story NII PP has won the tender on the OLS complex for the MiG-35 fighter.
> 
> OLS, as well as radar, allows to detect targets and aim weapon systems. But, unlike the radar, OLS has no emission which means - canÃ¢â¬â¢t be detected. OLS works like a human eye - it gets picture and analyzes it. Usually itÃ¢â¬â¢s been said radars are the eyes of the plane. But to be exact, itÃ¢â¬â¢s more locator device, like whales has. But OLS is really the eyes of the plane and they are very sharp.
> 
> *OLS works not only in visible bands. Very important part of Ã¢â¬Åplane visionÃ¢â¬Â is IR picture. NII PP engineers has chosen more short-wave bands for the matrix, which has increased sensitivity of the complex in several times and has increased detection range greatly.*
> 
> MiG-35 OLS may see USAF stealth planes very nicely as well. Today itÃ¢â¬â¢s impossible to hide the plane from the complex of powerful optics with IR vision.
> 
> Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅStealth technology today is mostly decreasing itÃ¢â¬â¢s visibility in radio bands. But for the optical bands, especially in IR ranges the main parameter is temperature. And you can do nothing about it. Engines have great flow of hot air which can be detected perfectly from the big range if we are behind the plane. If we are going face to face, so first of all we still see some part of this flow and second we can see the front edges of wings which meet air flow and become warm too.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> NII PP engineers solved one more problem, very well-known among the military pilots. *On fast speeds of modern fighters every piece of dust makes great harm to the glass of OLS, the glass becomes blurred. It causes great decrease of all the complex effectiveness. New OLS uses leuco- sapphire to be a second firm material after artificial diamonds. Time of life for such a glass is much longer. Leuco-sapphire is clear for all the OLS emissions and doesnÃ¢â¬â¢t corrupt the signal, which is extremely important for the optical systems.
> 
> All these innovations have allowed to receive unique results.*
> 
> Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅDuring the OLS tests we got MiG-29 detection ranges up to 45 km from the tail and 15 km from the front. Ranging device effective range for the aerial targets is 15 km, for the ground targets - more then 20 km.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> 
> *New OLS is intelligence system of technical vision to work in realtime of fast combat environment. In air combat complex allows:
> - detect not-afterburning target on the 45km range and more;
> - identify this target on 8-10km range;
> - estimate aerial target range up to 15 km.
> 
> For the ground targets complex allows:
> - tank effective detection range up to 15 km, aircraft carrier - 60-80 km;
> - identify the tank type on the 8-10 km, aircraft carrier type - 40-60 km;
> - estimate ground target range up to 20 km.*
> 
> Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅFirst one was the optical-locator system for the MiG fighter, that time it had no MiG-35 designation yet. First of all, we liked to work on it very much, very exciting task and field, besides we were able to use and apply our space experience very effectively.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> *When MiG corporation got new OLS, they decided to improve it. So it was born the whole complex of four optical systems.
> Besides the OLS it were:
> - on the right air intake body - downward-looking station, which in addition to the down hemisphere targets detection and identification can be used for the mapping;
> - on the wingtips - two laser emission detectors*
> 
> Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅObject-glass of the laser detector is based on the fish-eye idea, it allows field of view to be even a little bit bigger then all the hemisphere. This device allows to detect the moment when external laser is emitting and to estimate the direction to it.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> And the last parts of complex are two lenses of the attacking missiles detection.
> 
> 
> Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer:
> *Ã¢â¬ÅInformation about coming missile is being analyzed from the three stages of its progress: the missile launch, the work of main propulsion unit and on the distances less then 5 km missile can be detected by the warm head.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> The effective missile launch detection range is more then 50 km.
> 
> Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅOur system allows to evaluate the level of missile danger - on the distances more then 5 km we need to detect, if this missile is dangerous for the plane.Ã¢â¬Â*
> 
> New complex consist of many technological know-howÃ¢â¬â¢s. In fact, it is aircraft device built by the space standards. Complex uses unique laser. In the previous OLS it was used laser based on the pump up lamps. Its effectiveness was very low - up to 90% of all the energy was lost on the warming, not to the laser beam. In the NII PP for the first time OLS uses laser with semiconductor pump up. As a result, laser effectiveness has grew up greatly.
> 
> All the units are united into one system with help of interface unit. Complex is checking aerial field constantly and is able to detect dangerous objects by itself.
> 
> *Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅIn addition, our system has high-level calculation unit. As a part, there are three CPUs of the Pentium4 level. They help to analyze the picture, allow system to work in overview mode, detect targets on long distances and on the sun-lighted clouds background.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> In the first time this complex uses fiber channel for the data transmission. Fiber was adopted especially for this complex. It passes digital signal and the transfer speed reaches 600 Mbit/s - itÃ¢â¬â¢s brilliant parameters.
> 
> Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅFor example, this is one of the IR detectors. This is narrow-field detector. Here all the data are being passed by the fiber channel.Ã¢â¬Â*
> 
> Besides, new fiber channel is very reliable - from the words of the engineers it will work even if heavy tank will go over it.
> 
> Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅActually this is almost for the first time when fiber channel is being used in the combat aviation, so we had to go through many doubts of the aviation specialists. It was known that fiber channel is unreliable, that it often brakes down and that plane vibrations affect the data transmission.Ã¢â¬Â
> *
> More of it, new complex has totally new optical-electronic flight videoregistration system with hard drive. It records everything pilot sees.
> 
> Optical electronic complex gives pilot totally new abilities. From now on not only all the information, but picture of the target will appear on the monitors in several modes by the pilot choice. In general, new complex can provide pilot with picture of whatÃ¢â¬â¢s going on around the plane in most useful view, which of course will increase the chances of the fighter-pilot in modern air combat.*
> 
> Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅPilot can choose to see the picture from the front OLS in visible TV mode, or mixed visible and IR view. Pilot can change the level of information mixing. From the laser emission detectors pilot receives only coordinates of the emitting objects.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> Young specialists of the institute took very active part in the development of the new complex. Actually this NII PP project for the MiG-35 is the first after USSR fall, where main part of the development was done by young specialists.
> 
> Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: Ã¢â¬ÅOur success was supported by the fact this development was handled by the very young team. There is a backbone of very experienced space engineers and there is young people with clean brains. They have no fear to use modern technologies and solutions.Ã¢â¬Â
> 
> *OLS created in NII PP is not just another modern instrument. This is totally new device which completely fits the idea of 5th generation combat plane. Already today parameters of the OLS are about ten times better then old systems. But NII PP is not going to stop. Next stage of the development will be to upgrade the optical complex intelligence level and to combine it with onboard radar.*
> 
> *Using high technologies engineers are going to improve their OLS. Ã¢â¬ÅSpace-bornÃ¢â¬Â eyes of the newest Russian MiG-35 fighter will become even more sharp*.


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## Contrarian

These are VERY impressive figures. Does any one know the range of Litening 2 pods for ground targets?

Additionally these litening pods are externally mounted. Increasing drag, RCS, wasting payload.


----------



## Contrarian

Here is another nicely written piece on the Mig 35, this time by Piotr Butowski as posted by "Google" @ Keypubs: 



> SPECIAL REPORT
> Date Posted: 13-Mar-2007
> INTERNATIONAL DEFENCE REVIEW - APRIL 01, 2007
> ________________________________________
> MiG showcases Indian MRCA offering
> 
> Russian aircraft manufacturer MiG unveiled the MiG-35 fighter, in the form to be offered to India for its multirole combat aircraft (MRCA) requirement, at the Aero India exhibition in February 2007.
> The company also released extensive details of the radar, electro-optical sensor and other systems for the fighter at the show in Bangalore. The airframe is the well-known MiG-29M2 (no. 154), but the-MiG-35 electronics suite was put on display for the first time.
> 
> The aircraft's avionics system has been integrated into the fire-control and navigation system by Ramenskoye Design Bureau (RPKB). All of the devices are interconnected by a data bus compatible with MIL-STD-1553B and controlled by a computational system made by RPKB. The MiG-35's main fire-control sensor is the Zhuk-AE radar with active electronically scanned antenna (AESA) made by Phazotron- Nauchno-Issledovatelsky Institut Radiostroeniya (NIIR) Corporation in Moscow. A mock-up of the preliminary variant of this radar was showcased at the 7th International Aviation and Space Salon MAKS exhibition at Zhukovsky in August 2005. The radar had a 700 mm diameter antenna made of 1,088 transmit-receive (TR) modules (272 packs with four modules each), but at 450 kg was considered too heavy. In the next design, the weight of individual components was reduced, cut-outs in the radar body were made and a light magnesium alloy used.
> 
> To further reduce the weight to 220 kg the antenna diameter was decreased to 575 mm and the number of TR modules reduced to 680 (170 packs with four modules each). An experimental Zhuk-AE radar (the previous planned designation Zhuk-MAE was abandoned) was made with this design at the end of 2006 and then installed on the MiG-35 shown at Aero India. Zhuk-AE was due to start flight tests in March as the first Russian radar with active electronic scanning and another prototype radar enter testing at the same time.
> An initial batch of 12 Zhuk-AE radars is due to be manufactured in 2008. The first stage Zhuk-AE radar (also designated FGA29) shown at Aero India is a modernised version of the mechanically scanned Zhuk-ME radar fitted with new AESA antenna. It uses the Zhuk-ME radar computing system including data processor, signal processor and software as well as the clock generator. The Zhuk-AE/FGA29 radar can be built by converting Zhuk-ME radars. Phazotron-NIIR will probably offer this manufacturing option for users of Zhuk-ME such as Algeria, Eritrea, India and Yemen.
> Threat tracking
> The Zhuk-AE/FGA29 is a multifunction X-band radar (3 cm wavelength), which can track and engage air, ground and sea targets. The radar in its present form has a search range of 130 km against fighter aircraft with a radar cross-section of 5 m2.-Phazotron claims that thanks to selecting proper range between radiating elements, a ÃÂ± deflection of the antenna beam was achieved without parasite side lobes. The radar can track up to 30 air targets and engage six of them simultaneously.
> 
> *The second stage radar, designated Zhuk-AE/FGA35, will be fitted to production MiG-35 fighter aircraft. They will receive a new computing system and new multifunction wideband generator. According to Phazotron, these changes mean AESA technology can be better exploited and new radar operation modes introduced. Additionally, due to a reduction in the size and weight of the radar modules, the antenna mirror can be moved further away from the nose of the aircraft and its diameter increased. The FGA35 will operate with a 700 mm diameter antenna with between 1,000 and 1,100 TR modules. The present design suggests there will be 1,064 modules, but slight changes are possible. The range of Zhuk-AE/FGA35 will be 200 km (for a 5 m2 target). The radar will be capable of tracking up to 60 air targets and engaging six of them. All radar components were designed and manufactured by Phazotron-NIIR except for the TR module. Almaz-Phazotron in Saratov unsuccessfully tried to produce its own TR module in 2002.*
> 
> Phazotron-NIIR engaged two companies from Tomsk Mikran and Nauchno-Issledovatelskiy Institut Poluprovodnikovykh-Priborov (NIIPP [Scientific-Research Institute of Semiconductor Instruments]) to manufacture the TR modules. Mikran designs Russian MMIC circuits and TR modules, while NIIPP undertakes their production on an industrial scale. One Indian MRCA tender requirement is the transfer of fighter production to India. Phazotron-NIIR believes it can offer substantial opportunities for work on the production of the Zhuk-AE radar. *Of equal importance for the MiG-35 are its two electro-optical built-in sensor unit the air-to-air OLS-UEM (Optiko-Lokatsionnaya Stantsiya [optical locator station]) system and the air-to-ground OLS-K (Optiko-Lokatsionnaya Konteynernaya [optical locator podded]) system.Both of the units were developed by NII PP (Nauchno-Issledovatelskiy Institut Pretsizionnogo Priborostroyeniya [Scientific Research Institute of Precision Instruments Engineering]), which previously specialised in optical and laser equipment used to measure the trajectory of missiles and space stations.*
> 
> Target alert
> The OLS-UEM imaging InfraRed Search-and-Track (IRST) unit automatically detects and tracks air and surface targets, as well as showing the pilot an image of the target for recognition purposes.
> The unit includes a 320 x 256 pixel thermal imaging camera and a 640 x 480 pixel TV camera. The optical path, with scanning mirror, is common to both cameras and protected by a semi-spherical transparent dome made of leucosapphire. The mirror scans airspace within the range of ÃÂ± in azimuth and within -15/+60&#730; in elevation (with respect to the aircraft axis). Air targets can be detected at ranges out to 45 km in tail-on position or 15 km in hea d-on position. The built-in laser rangefinder operates in two wavelengths 1.57 ÃÂµm (eye-safe) for training and 1.06 ÃÂµm for combat use. It covers distances from 200 m out to 20 km.
> 
> The whole OLS-UEM unit weighs 78 kg and its size is similar to that of the former OLS-29 EO unit of earlier MiG-29 aircraft, developed by UOMZ Company in Yekaterinburg. The prototype of the OLS-UEM locator was installed in the experimental MiG-29M2, which was modified to become the-MiG-35 prototype in 2006. *The similar but simpler OLS-UE version is installed in Indian-MiG-29K shipborne fighters.
> The OLS-K system is used to detect and track surface targets. According to NII PP, the OLS-K can detect a tank-sized target from a distance of 20 km or a motor boat from 40 km; the laser rangefinder measures distances out to 20 km. The optical channel, which is common to the IR sensor and TV camera, is installed under a hemispherical, transparent dome similar to that of the OLS-UEM unit. The device includes a laser rangefinder/target designator and a laser spot tracker. The OLS-K is installed inside a conformal pod that is 1.98 m long and weighs 110 kg, and is suspended under the starboard engine air trunk.*The MiG-35 self-defence suite controls the warning devices (radar, optical and laser) and the electronic jammer, as well as the chaff/flare launchers.
> 
> This fully automatic system launches defensive measures and recommends evasive manoeuvres. The most urgent warning information is repeated by voice signal. The devices included in the self-defence suite have not yet been finally specified. The most probable candidate among radar warning receivers (RWRs) is the Indian Tarang Mk2 unit, which is the Indian Air Force standard. The Russian option is the L150 Pastel unit. The RWR has three antennas. Two of them installed on the wing tips cover the front hemisphere, whereas the third, installed on the tailfin, covers a 90&#730; azimuth of the rear hemisphere. The infrared missile-approach warning device SOAR (Stantsiya Obnaruzheniya Atakuyushchikh Raket) has been developed by NII PP, as have the optical locators. The device has two sensors; the one under the portside engine air trunk watches the lower hemisphere, whereas the other, situated behind the pilot cockpit, watches the upper hemisphere.
> The SOAR can detect the launch of a portable anti-aircraft missile from a distance of 10 km, air-to-air missile from 30 km and large anti-aircraft missile from-50 km. The device detects the launch of the missile and indicates the direction from which it is approaching.
> 
> The SOLO (Stantsiya Obnaruzheniya Lazernogo Oblucheniya) laser warning device, also designed by NII PP, has two sensors located on the wing tips covering 360&#730; in azimuth. The SOLO device can detect a laser rangefinder tracking the aircraft up to a distance of-30 km and finds its angular position with an accuracy of 0.5&#730;. The operational range is within 1.06 ÃÂµm through 1.57 ÃÂµm and the device weighs 800 g.
> *MiG and Italy's Elettronica announced in Bangalore that they had co-operated on the integration of the self-protection jammer ELT/568(v)2 into the MiG-35 self-protection system.*
> Defence deployment
> *The ELT/568 unit covers bands H-J (on board section) and E-G (podded section). Two active-phased array antennas located in the wings' leading edges cover the front hemisphere, whereas the third, located in the root of the starboard tailfin, covers the rear hemisphere. The pod, installed under the portside outer wing pylon, has two antennas front and rear*. Russian options for jamming units have not been declared, but one may be the SAP-518, made by Kaluga's Research Institute of Radio Engineering (KNIRTI), which also includes a high-band built-in section and a medium-band podded section. The MiG-35 will receive two 16-round 50 mm flare dispensers installed inside the tail beams close to the engines. *MiG also announced that French systems have been considered for the MiG-35 self-defence suite, but did not provide details.*
> 
> Piotr Butowski


----------



## Interceptor

Pakistan counter measure would be a greater air-defence it would certainly achieve this easily because Pakistan is superior when it comes to ballistics, and would find alternatives to counter the Greater Force shown by the IAF, history tells a different story in Air force dominance though Pakistan cant be compared in any way with India, it being a greater power in history and currently over Pakistan. However, Pakistan has always shown courage and in its history itÃ¢â¬â¢s always managed to out-fox India and give historical wins. The Pakistani pilots are well known for their dog fights and precision against its enemies it has world class air force pilots. Pakistan instructs lots of countries in the field of air force among the countries mostly dependent on Pakistani training are Middle-eastern. ItÃ¢â¬â¢s not the plane, that the pilot flyÃ¢â¬â¢s that determines the victory, over an enemy it is the preparation of the pilot that determines it. M.M Alam has proven this he had an aircraft that respectively if compared to the Indian Hunter would be inferior. But he was able to take 5 hunters in less then a minute.


----------



## Adux

Surely Pakistan has made some individual battle brilliance, Indians cant expect anything else, for the mere fact there are brilliant men on the other side of the border. That being said, It would be foolish and naive for you to think there arent exactly the same kind of examples on the Indian side. Whatever being said and done, outcome's of all the War's were in India's favour.

M.M Alam's story of 5 hunters in a minute, I would take that with a pinch of salt. Pretty hard to believe. Hunters were supposed to be inferior to F-86 and the SuperStar Fighter in the hands of Pakistan.


----------



## Interceptor

Adux said:


> Surely Pakistan has made some individual battle brilliance, Indians cant expect anything else, for the mere fact there are brilliant men on the other side of the border. That being said, It would be foolish and naive for you to think there arent exactly the same kind of examples on the Indian side. Whatever being said and done, outcome's of all the War's were in India's favour.
> 
> M.M Alam's story of 5 hunters in a minute, I would take that with a pinch of salt. Pretty hard to believe. Hunters were supposed to be inferior to F-86 and the SuperStar Fighter in the hands of Pakistan.



I have no complication with India I regard it as a top 5-4 power of the World when it comes to tech. Hunters were faster and had the capability of air-to-air which the Sabre didn&#8217;t it only had a machine gun or cannon gun and could drop bombs. No I don&#8217;t believe your being honest to yourself India had little superiority over Pakistani air; it had heavy losses of aircrafts and maintained to be little threat over Pakistan. I agree that the air power that India has is far more advance then the Pakistani air force but its professionalism is far greater than the entire Indian Air force put together. Pakistan hasn&#8217;t only fought wars against India its Pilots have also served foreign countries such as Jordan, UAE, Saudis, Iraq, Libya....etc and it has fought against Israel in the Arab conflict and other battles. It is trained to be an air force that can last. 

Pakistan has achieved many feats in air victories and M.M Alam was one of many. It was an example. The Pakistani Air force has the worlds finest pilots it may not operate the best planes in the business but it has balanced its air force by training them up to superior level.


----------



## Contrarian

Please lets keep this a discussion about MiG 35, rather than saying Pakistani pilots are brave.


----------



## Interceptor

Yeah Top tech for Indian Pilots it is a good investment it will increace the stealth attack on neigbouring counteries 10 folds. But it is very pricy for a plane. Dont you agree, could show what its comparison is against leading world fighter aircrafts is the Mig 35 better?


----------



## Contrarian

Depends on which planes are you talking about. Surely not F-22 and F-35, beceause they employ Stealth technology.

Then comes Typhoon and Rafale. We really cannot comment because MiG 35 has not been bought by any AF right now. If India choses MiG 35, India would be the frist to buy this plane.

Undoubtedly, MiG 35 has a MAJOR MAJOR advantage over its opponents because of 3-D TVC. I would say it would perform spectacularly against any enemy in WVR, as well as BVR because of its ability to evade missiles, and change directions instantaneously without losing energy. 

However, it also has an AESA, which would give it a great BVR, SAR capability. The radar itself is not certain, ie whether it will be chosen by IAF or not. Israeli 2052 is a far better AESA, IAF may also go for that.

Infact the only thing to actually limit the BVR capability of MiG 35 would be the Russian missile inventories, however that too in the future looks to change with the 'new' R-77 and R-74 comming. There is no timeframe however.

The Russian air to mud munitions are very sadly lacking though. In this case, however, Israel fills the gap. It seems that India plans to procure many air to surface munitions from Israel to fill in that gap, infact there is a VERY interesting article in Force this time, i will have to type it manually, but its worth it.

The Russians have also claimed that the RCS of MiG 35 is less than a factor of 7 of the Original MiG 29. If that is true, it would put MiG 35's RCS to somwhere around and possibly lesser than the Typhoon. It all depends on what is the RCS of the MiG 35. 

Ofcourse the one thing to realise in this scenarion is that MiG 35 in its present form wont be bought by India. It would be FURTHER modified by India, using the best available components that it deems fit, and that most likely includes French and Israeli EC/ECCM components and avionics. This much is certain.

If Russians claim of the RCS reduction is true, then MiG 35 should indeed be the best a/c of the '4++' generation.


----------



## su-47

MiG-35 has another advantage that most people ignore. Because of the development of PAKFA, a lot of new technologies are being developed in Russian aviation industry. To some extent these new technologies can be applied to the MiG-35, making it more lethal.


----------



## Contrarian

Yes, that is also another important reason. That would apply to the Su-30MKI too though.


----------



## BATMAN

Loads of impressive information, from the experienced Indian flank. 
Indeed Mig35 is an able challenger to latest western fighters e.g. Typhoon, gripen etc.
It's low price compare to western fighters, makes it a commercial winner, as well.
Mig fighters are highly respected in many of the world Airforces.
I rate it 'best buy'.


----------



## timmy

Adux said:


> .............outcome's of all the War's were in India's favour.



My Dear the only war that India ever won was the 1971 War! The entire world knows that we had a civil war, of which India took full advantage of! You talk about breaking us, we broke you in 1947  The 1965 War ended in a Stalmate...nevertheless Pakistan captured more land, more PoWs, inflicted more casualties and much heavy losses on you that you did on us. And ofcourse the PAF knocked the IAF BIG-TIME! 



Adux said:


> M.M Alam's story of 5 hunters in a minute, I would take that with a pinch of salt. Pretty hard to believe. Hunters were supposed to be inferior to F-86 and the SuperStar Fighter in the hands of Pakistan.



I know the Truth is v.hard to digest. The fact that you are commenting about M.M.Alam's feat is a fine testament to his achievement! Would be more than happy to have a discussion on your victories here and there...but this is a MIG-35 forum so STICK TO IT!


----------



## A.Rahman

Adux said:


> Surely Pakistan has made some individual battle brilliance, Indians cant expect anything else, for the mere fact there are brilliant men on the other side of the border. That being said, It would be foolish and naive for you to think there arent exactly the same kind of examples on the Indian side. Whatever being said and done, outcome's of all the War's were in India's favour.
> 
> M.M Alam's story of 5 hunters in a minute, I would take that with a pinch of salt. Pretty hard to believe. Hunters were supposed to be inferior to F-86 and the SuperStar Fighter in the hands of Pakistan.



Alams kills:

6 Sept, 1 Hunter, Sqn Ldr Ajeet Kumar Rawlley, No 7 Sqn, KIA, near Taran Taran. 

7 Sept, 3 Hunters, Sqn Ldr Onkar Nath Kacker, No 27 Sqn, POW, Burjlal; Sqn Ldr Suresh B Bhagwat and Flg Off Jagdev Singh Brar, No 7 Sqn, KIA, near Sangla Hill. 

16 Sept, 1 Hunter, Flg Off Farokh Dara Bunsha, No 7 Sqn, KIA, near Amritsar. 

8 Tribute by Jon Guttman in PakistanÃ¢â¬â¢s Sabre Ace, Ã¢â¬ËAviation History,Ã¢â¬â¢ Sept 1998. 



now say that these names are mde up and these people never existed.


----------



## Contrarian

I disagree, India had the upperhand in ALL the wars, and seeing as Pakistan initiated all of them, and they got NOTHING in the end, i say India won.

BWT when did Pakistan 'break' us in 1947?? The only thing Pakistan did wass make the King of Kashmir sign the IOA with India. LOL< we are verry happy with the part of Kashmir we have.


----------



## Adux

Rahman,

I am sure Alam got them all, I am only disagreeing with the ONE minute thingie.


----------



## PakSniper

malaymishra123 said:


> I disagree, India had the upperhand in ALL the wars, and seeing as Pakistan initiated all of them, and they got NOTHING in the end, i say India won.



Yes, you had the upperhand and had your AF blow away good logic. 
And neither has India got anything, we still holding onto our lands we got in Kashmir.


----------



## A.Rahman

Adux said:


> Rahman,
> 
> I am sure Alam got them all, I am only disagreeing with the ONE minute thingie.



He got 3 comfirm kills under 1 minute


----------



## Adux

Rahman,

The earlier assertion was 5 in one minute, even a 3 is a bit of a stretch inside a minute. i am sure he got all 5 at one sortie, but inside a minute, its quite hard to digest


----------



## Contrarian

lol, we got the lands in Kashmir because Pakistan attacked. Otherwise we would not have gotten them in teh first place. Glad that pakistan attacked. It helped make up Hari Singhs mind. If you count that as victory, then by all means, you won


----------



## Adux

PakSniper said:


> Yes, you had the upperhand and had your AF blow away good logic.
> And neither has India got anything, we still holding onto our lands we got in Kashmir.



That land you got from the King of Jammu and Kashmir, Not by defeating India. We entered the War when you were close to Sri Nagar and we pushed you back a long way, So in turn you lost land to us.


----------



## PakSniper

I already provided a source in another Kashmir thread, from a western source. That showed that India troops were already in Kashmir and the King was pressurized in signing the treaty, also know how you took other Majority muslim lands, so technically we had to go into war and get some land, it wasn't given to to us.


----------



## Contrarian

Lets not make this a therad about indo pak wars. 

But the thread in which i whoop every1's a$$ who says MiG 35 is inferior to Typhoon  *growl growl*


----------



## PakSniper

Adux said:


> Rahman,
> 
> The earlier assertion was 5 in one minute, even a 3 is a bit of a stretch inside a minute. i am sure he got all 5 at one sortie, but inside a minute, its quite hard to digest



Tell me if it was an Indian (wet dream) you would be boasting about it wouldn't you, and you would take it at face value? I think everything is hard for you to digest.


----------



## PakSniper

> Lets not make this a therad about indo pak wars.



I agree, I will stop making it that thread unless someone else replies and talks about Kashmir. We can keep bring up sources all day, and were still stuck in Square one.



> But the thread in which i whoop every1's a$$ who says MiG 35 is inferior to Typhoon  *growl growl*



ROFL..that heap of junk is nothing but an upgraded MiG-29, but as always I don't consider Russia equipment up to standard, like other western nations, and Russia equipment hasn't proven itself. About Typhon I suggest you make a thread in Defensetalk.com, and see the reactions you will get. 

Typhoon will get any Russian junk up!


----------



## Contrarian

You call MiG 35 a peice of junk. Keep in mind that it is the only plane that IF PROVED INFERIOR to the Typhoon will be the only plane that can challenge it. Su-30 series proves that Russian equipment is well proven. Dont talk about stuff you dont know. read about MiG 35 from the first page of this thread. Then we'l see whats what.


----------



## Adux

Malay,

I heard MIG corp is recuriting Sales people....Jingo's are prefered


----------



## Adux

PakSniper said:


> Tell me if it was an Indian (wet dream) you would be boasting about it wouldn't you, and you would take it at face value? I think everything is hard for you to digest.



Adnan,

I wouldnt. Indian, Pakistani or American. tell me an F-22 did that...You will see me agree.lol. I am not taking anything away from the famed ace, just one minute is too far fetched for me.


----------



## Contrarian

Did you not know? I was already offered the job, they were impressed by my skills, they did not even ask for an interview!

You did not reply as to the percentage of composites on Typhoon and its 'better aam package'


----------



## PakSniper

malaymishra123 said:


> You call MiG 35 a peice of junk. Keep in mind that it is the only plane that IF PROVED INFERIOR to the Typhoon will be the only plane that can challenge it. Su-30 series proves that Russian equipment is well proven. Dont talk about stuff you dont know. read about MiG 35 from the first page of this thread. Then we'l see whats what.



I have read about Typhoon and Rafale and MiG-35, and my conclusion stands as well as other top posters in Defensetalk, that MiG-35 is nothing next to Typhoon, how has SU-30 proven itself (SU-30MKI incorporates heavy western tech) hence India went with French and Israel and not get some Russia input reason it's not up to standards as others, but MiG-35 with western tech is diffferent story we still have to see what India gets in it, but as of right now the way it is its' not good (not much of an upgrade in my eyes).

~ One thing I would like to point out, alot of you consider AESA SO MUCH BETTER, their are Mechanical radars that can perform just as good, you don'ot have to have AESA to get an edge in A-A.



Adux said:


> Adnan,
> 
> I wouldnt. Indian, Pakistani or American. tell me an F-22 did that...You will see me agree.lol. I am not taking anything away from the famed ace, just one minute is too far fetched for me.



Well, F-22 got 145-0, lol not even I can try to disagree.


----------



## EagleEyes

> Did you not know? I was already offered the job, they were impressed by my skills, they did not even ask for an interview!



What kind of skills did you show?


----------



## PakSniper

malaymishra123 said:


> Did you not know? I was already offered the job, they were impressed by my skills, they did not even ask for an interview!



Now I know why Arabs were screwed over in their Air wars.


----------



## Adux

PakSniper said:


> Now I know why Arabs were screwed over in their Air wars.



Even with Pakistani's flying, Guess Winners have many fathers, losers are all orphans


----------



## Adux

Eurofighter Specifications 
Primary Function: Fighter 
Contractor: Germany, Italy, Spain, UK 
Crew: Pilot 
Unit Cost: N/A 
Powerplant 
Two EJ200 Turbofan Engines rated at 20,000 lbf (90 kN) afterburning each 
Dimensions 
Length: 49.08 ft 
Wingspan: 35.93 ft 
Height: 5.28m 
Weights 
Empty: 21,495 lb (approx.) 
Maximum Takeoff: 46,297 lb (approx.) 
Performance 
Speed: 1,320 mph (2125 km/h) 
Ceiling: 60,000 ft 
Combat Radius: air defence with 10-min loiter : 1389 km 
Armament 
Internally mounted 27mm Mauser gun; Mix of Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles (BVRAAM) and Short-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (SRAAM) carried externally; Four BVRAAM under fuselage in semi-conformal carriage configuration; Laser guided bombs; Advanced anti-armour weapons; Conventionally armed stand-off missiles 
Service Life 
First Flight: August 1986 (prototype)
March 27, 1994 (EF-2000) 
End of Service: N/A 
Number Built: [~698 in production]


----------



## timmy

malaymishra123 said:


> I disagree, India had the upperhand in ALL the wars, and seeing as Pakistan initiated all of them, and they got NOTHING in the end, i say India won.
> 
> BWT when did Pakistan 'break' us in 1947?? The only thing Pakistan did wass make the King of Kashmir sign the IOA with India. LOL< we are verry happy with the part of Kashmir we have.



Hhhmm ask your elders they will tell you some history lessons  or if you want i can rephrase it another way
"PAKISTAN was CARVED out of India"  I just love the sound of that!!!
About upper hand in your wars....keep on watching your "Alice in Wonderland Movies"  




Adux said:


> That land you got from the King of Jammu and Kashmir, Not by defeating India. We entered the War when you were close to Sri Nagar and we pushed you back a long way, So in turn you lost land to us.



Another fool who BADLY needs a history lesson. The king/marahaja of J&K being a Hindu sided with India...everyone but you can see it! And Sri Nagar??? The Kashmir that we have today YOU lost all that to us Pathans! So Thank U Marahaja of J&K for making the most stupidest miskate of your worthless life and for allowing us to GRAB one of the most beautiful pieces of land  

As i said, keep this post to your MIG-35!


----------



## Awesome

Timmy we can criticize arguments without calling each other names.


----------



## Contrarian

Chill Adux,

Dont reply to such threads, i did not deliberately post. Let the good man think that he is correct.


----------



## Neo

*Timmy mind your language and keep it civilised. I won't allow use of vulgar language here. 

Neo*


----------



## timmy

Appologies Neo, but just found their Bollywood crap too funny! Khair kindly tell them that this is a MIG-35 forum, not proving who won here and there!


----------



## Neo

timmy said:


> And could you kindly tell me what EXACTLY what were my words  Your talking about "Civilised" look what Adux has used!


Two wrongs don't make a right and if you only waited for few more seconds you would have noticed that I deleted his post aswell.



> Good job keep it up!


Don't worry about my job, read the forum rules and stick to them. That will make my job easier.
Cheers!


----------



## Neo

Now back to debate everybody and please stick to the topic.
Thanks!


----------



## timmy

Thanks for clearing up Neo!

And who was comparing MIG-35 with Eurofighter??? where are the FACTS...


----------



## Neo

You're welcome! 

I believe we all agreed that Eurofighter is superior to any other existing non stealth multirole fighter including the Mig-35.


----------



## Adux

Neo said:


> You're welcome!
> 
> I believe we all agreed that Eurofighter is superior to any other existing non stealth multirole fighter including the Mig-35.



Why do I see Malay fuming in his head, with steam coming out of his ears...lol
As he watches his paycheck from MIG Corp comes a cropper...


----------



## Neo

Adux said:


> Why do I see Malay fuming in his head, with steam coming out of his ears...lol
> As he watches his paycheck from MIG Corp comes a cropper...



Lol....


----------



## BATMAN

timmy said:


> Thanks for clearing up Neo!
> 
> And who was comparing MIG-35 with Eurofighter??? where are the FACTS...



Sorry, I also compared Mig35 with eurofighter and gripen.
Actually I believed all the wonderful things Indians had wrote about Mig35 in the history of this thread.
But now they them self have taken a u-turn and have started praising Eurofighter.:GUNS: Indians! very slippery creatures indeed.
I started to have the feeling that now they have quit the idea of buying Mig and have finalised Eurofighter.


----------



## Adux

BATMAN said:


> Sorry, I also compared Mig35 with eurofighter and gripen.
> Actually I believed all the wonderful things Indians had wrote about Mig35 in the history of this thread.
> But now they them self have taken a u-turn and have started praising Eurofighter.:GUNS: Indians! very slippery creatures indeed.
> I started to have the feeling that now they have quit the idea of buying Mig and have finalised Eurofighter.




True we are SNAKES!!!!!!!! or are we banana's:banana2:


----------



## BATMAN

Adux said:


> True we are SNAKES!!!!!!!! or are we banana's:banano a2:


No, In our culture to call some one SNAKE is not good manner and you have left me no choice!!!! I would say banana.


----------



## Interceptor

That would not be a wise step forward, if they can avoid forign technology its better other wise the affect could be lasting if they aprove for the Eurofighter then there are the affects of sanctions in times when the Indians want spares or parts for the aircraft similar thing that has happend time and agian in pakistan with the F-16.

They have great oppertunity to develop the Mig-35 in there own backyard and they should take this advantage, as Pakistan has also tilted to reliable source of supply of Fighter jets from china.


----------



## Contrarian

Dude, India will make the planes HERE. There can be no sanctions. The spare parts would be made in India itself. I think India has been offered a position as a partner in teh Eurofighter consortium.


----------



## Adux

BATMAN said:


> No, In our culture to call some one SNAKE is not good manner and you have left me no choice!!!! I would say banana.



So what are slithery creatures you mentioned in your post. Nice to Know all muslims are pious and nice; SO i guess even BB and NS are all good people cuz they are all muslims and pakistani's. While we are Indians therefore can only do wrong


----------



## Interceptor

malaymishra123 said:


> Dude, India will make the planes HERE. There can be no sanctions. The spare parts would be made in India itself. I think India has been offered a position as a partner in teh Eurofighter consortium.



The Eurofighter do you mean that plane you will build in India are you seriouse, and yes when a country goes to war its gets Sanctions only the USA are special to this case.


----------



## Contrarian

Uh, if the plane is being build here, then how the hell will sanctions affect this plane? We would be manufacturing the planes ourselves. So that is not a problem. BTW this is an eurpean consortium, they are not like US to slap sanctions at the first signs of trouble.


----------



## Interceptor

malaymishra123 said:


> Uh, if the plane is being build here, then how the hell will sanctions affect this plane? We would be manufacturing the planes ourselves. So that is not a problem. BTW this is an eurpean consortium, they are not like US to slap sanctions at the first signs of trouble.



Your too fictional, the Eurofighter is not gona get built in India EVER. You can buy them but I doubt they wil everl let India build them.

"BTW this is an eurpean consortium

Thaaaaaaaaa, I live in Europe wouldn't I know that.


----------



## Contrarian

Well, surprisingly the Eurifighter consortium governments dont seem to think along your lines. Typhoon will be built here should India choose Typhoon.


----------



## Interceptor

Keep dreaming.


----------



## Adux

Interceptor,

Transfer of Technology is a must in Indian Deals as well as 30% offsets, therefore if the European Consortium doesnt agree to it, then India wouldnt buy it, for the MMRCA this is already announced therefore Typhoon wouldnt participate if they cant meet that conditionality


----------



## Interceptor

That would be some achievement from Indian delegations. Let see what happens.


----------



## Contrarian

There is no 'lets see what happens'. Its done. Typhoon is offered. 30% offset in Indian industry, manufacturing done in India. Its India's choice wheter she buys the Typhoon or not. Which news in this world are u following? This is open information. 

Jesus christ, google and then talk.


----------



## Interceptor

malaymishra123 said:


> There is no 'lets see what happens'. Its done. Typhoon is offered. 30% offset in Indian industry, manufacturing done in India. Its India's choice wheter she buys the Typhoon or not. Which news in this world are u following? This is open information.
> 
> Jesus christ, google and then talk.



Arent you Hindu where did "Jesus." Any how its speculation India will get them not produce them whats the point of selling them then.


----------



## Adux

Interceptor said:


> Arent you Hindu where did "Jesus." Any how its speculation India will get them not produce them whats the point of selling them then.



Dude I say Inshallah, Jesus Christ and Ente krishna...so!!!!!

They will buy some copies of the shelf, others will be made in India, for that a Royality will have to be paid by India to the company as well as for the TOT. Its not as if you are buying from a super market .


----------



## joey

Do I need to start over again 

Mig 35 isnt at all a bad bird, if you put price performance ratio as good as Typhoon IMHO.

Typhoon is poorly developed, no TRANCE 3 AESA till 2015, with Italy and UK funding JSF it wont reach nowhere before 2015.

Mig 35 with true solid state SPJ jammer from Italy coupled with Skyguard or Lobhushka type system with Elta 2052 and array of weapons, Indian datalinks, mission computers, composites etc, is the best bet.

Rafale is a nice bird as well, but again underdeveloped , pricey and doesnt offers TOO HUGE difference over the upgraded Mirage 20000-5 with many things from Rafale included.

Super Hornet block 2 is simply kickass, but Block 2 isnt yet developed by boeing and it costs atleast over 140 mn dollars (it costed 142 mn dollars for the F18e/F for aussie deal)


----------



## joey

Interceptor said:


> Your too fictional, the Eurofighter is not gona get built in India EVER. You can buy them but I doubt they wil everl let India build them.
> 
> "BTW this is an eurpean consortium
> 
> Thaaaaaaaaa, I live in Europe wouldn't I know that.



http://www.eurofighter.com/documents/general/EFReview02screen.pdf 

Check page 5 of this PDF for, 

*********

PK Mehra, Air Marshal Indian Air Force 

As Eurofighter Typhoon is officially registered in the procurement competition in India, Mr Mehra&#8217;s visit to ILA gave Industry a chance to promote the aircraft direct to the end-user. Mat Molineaux of the Royal Air 
Force, guided Air Marshal Mehra through a simulated mission scenario, demonstrating the key discriminators that have made Eurofighter Typhoon the best-selling next generation combat aircraft.

also,

AW&ST had reported that among the Euro-consortium, they were looking to offer India the joint production of the Typhoon as the fifth partner along with ToT. there was reportedly competition between UK and Germany about which country should get to lead the bid for the MRCA



********************

New defence procurement policy and TOT,

http://mod.nic.in/dpm/welcome.html 

From Page 54 



> 17. Transfer of Technology (TOT)(If applicable). The Govt of India, Ministry of Defence is desirous of license production of (generic name of equipment) under TOT. Aspects of TOT which are to be fulfilled by the vendor are given at Appendix &#8216;L&#8217;. Govt reserves the right to negotiate TOT terms subsequently but the availability of TOT would be a pre-condition for any further procurements. If negotiations for TOT are not held as a part of the negotiations for equipment, then subsequent and separate TOT negotiations would continue from the stage where the equipment has been selected.
> 
> Note:-
> (The RFP in such cases would spell out the requirements of TOT depending upon the depth of the technology which is required, and whose range could cover technology for repair and overhaul; production from CKD/SKD kits and production from raw material and components level. Aspects which are to be included in the RFP in case production from CKD/SKD/IM kits are given at Appendix &#8216;L&#8217; to Schedule I. Care should be taken to spell out the selection criteria clearly. The nominated Production Agency (PA) for the receipt of technology will be closely associated in the preparation of RFP).




Page 75-76 of the PDF. 



> Full TOT for the following systems for overhaul and repair is mandatory:
> (i) Air Frame including metallic and composite structures,
> empennage,
> (ii) Canopy, Radome, Special process, Casting & Forgings
> (iii) Flight Control Systems including FBW hardware and software
> (iv) Landing Gear system including all castings and forgings
> (v) Electrical and Avionics systems including Cockpit display systems
> (vi) Instruments, Communication and Navigation equipment, Power
> generation and distribution systems.
> (vii) Power Plant System including FADEC, Engine accessories,
> Turbine, NGV and compressor blades
> (viii) Hydraulic System including pumps, servo actuators along with its
> spool & sleeve
> (ix) Wheels and brakes system
> (x) Fuel System including in flight refuelling
> (xi) Environment system including OBOX, Pneumatic system
> (xii) Ejection Seat
> (xiii) Weapon Systems Integration, hardware and software.
> 
> ......................................
> 
> (c) The TOT shall be for &#8220;D&#8221; level maintenance to cover Airframe, Engines,
> Avionics and other aggregates. . It shall be comprehensive and shall cover all aspects of maintenance up to the lowest level which will enable the Maintenance Agency to, repair, overhaul, support and maintain the license product. TOT shall include the details that are needed to give disposition during the maintenance on deviation/ concession; modify/ upgrade the licence product and substitute parts and systems of the licence product as required by the certifying agency and the maintenance agency.




From page 76-77 



> (a) The TOT Documentation to be provided by the OEM shall be in English
> language in Electronic and hardcopy formats, and include documentation under the following heads:-
> 
> 
> (i) &#8220;D&#8221; level Maintenance documentation in ATA100/ATA iSpec
> 2200.
> (ii) Engineering documentation including special process.
> (iii) Software documentation including source code, build
> environment and utilities.
> (iv) Details of Special tools and Test equipments, Jigs & Fixtures.
> (v) OEM&#8217;s Standard Technical Manuals.
> (vi) Illustrated parts catalogue with price list.
> (vii) Source identification for BOIs and subcontracted items; standard
> parts consumables etc.
> (viii) Mandatory spares replacement lists and price catalogue for O,I,
> and D level maintenances.



Phew .._om shanti shanti shanti_..


----------



## Adux

Joey,

The Aussie Deal included spares, training, infrastructure, ammunitions etc. Please check your facts again on this.
Tranche 3 is under-development, Rafale is fully developed.


----------



## Contrarian

No its not Adux. They dont have an AESA yet. Because Rafale was not getting any export orders, French govt decided to go ahead in making the AESA-rbe2 i believe. it will take time before the aesa gets integrated.

The same is for Typhoon. Tranche 3 is under development.

Aussie deal did include spares, training infrastructure, etc, however the thing to keep in mind is, that there is commonality between F/A-18A/B/C/D and E/F versions. Yes, i know its a separate plane, but there are many things common as well. So the aussies had an advantage there, this is one of the reasons Australian govt selected the Shornet in the first place.


----------



## Interceptor

I was told it will be completly produced in India it says,

"(c) The TOT shall be for &#8220;D&#8221; level maintenance to cover Airframe, Engines,
Avionics and other aggregates. . It shall be comprehensive and shall cover all aspects of maintenance up to the lowest level which will enable the Maintenance Agency to, repair, overhaul, support and maintain the license product. TOT shall include the details that are needed to give disposition during the maintenance on deviation/ concession; modify/ upgrade the licence product and substitute parts and systems of the licence product as required by the certifying agency and the maintenance agency."

So therefore the Eurofighter will be built in Europe and then the maintance factory will be built in India to support it in the future.


----------



## Contrarian

What part of 'India might become the fifth nation partner' did you not get?
That is the MINIMUM requirement for any plane that we buy. However, if we pay more we get more. 

There is no limitation that India cannot join, or this or that.


----------



## Interceptor

You mean bribe to get more. Oke whatever.


----------



## Contrarian

Huh? How is this bribing? Man interceptor what is wrong with you!!?!?!?!

This is a BASIC COMMERCIAL TRNASACTION. Get it through this last time. EUFT consortium has offered India to be 5th member partner. There is a MINIMUM ToT level and 30% offset level which EVERY company must comply with if it participates in a tender. Every company is free to offer much more, as has been done by MiG, EUFT, SAAB ,LM, Boeing(only the AESA tech wont be ToT'ed in the last two cases).The damn plane would be made in India.

India is under NO LIMITATIONS whatsoever from any country. We can buy whatever we damn well please and most of it with ToT.


----------



## Adux

F/a-18 A/B/C/D are not at all common other than the similar way it looks, 

F/A-18 E/F is different beast altogether. The Aussie Deal has a lot of spares, arms involved in it.

The only thing that is not integrated to the Rafale right now is the RDY-2, as well as its higher power engines from Snecma.

Tranche 3 is well under-way, there will 642 Euro-Fighters in the world by 2018, by the present order of customers.


----------



## Adux

Malay,

he is a kid, and he is not getting the true meaning of TOT and how money is paid for TOT. So dis-engage.


----------



## su-47

timmy said:


> My Dear the only war that India ever won was the 1971 War! The entire world knows that we had a civil war, of which India took full advantage of! You talk about breaking us, we broke you in 1947  The 1965 War ended in a Stalmate...nevertheless Pakistan captured more land, more PoWs, inflicted more casualties and much heavy losses on you that you did on us. And ofcourse the PAF knocked the IAF BIG-TIME!




What do u mean, 'we broke you in 1947'? 

If u dont know about 1965 war, please do read. It was a stalemate where India inflicted more casualities on Pakistan. Pakistan attacked India and India lost land, but the Indians counterattacked and captured back the lost land. Then the Indian forces were on the offensive and would have won the war, but Uncle Sam imposed sanctions on both nations, forcing us to stop the fight and accept stalemate.

here take a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965


----------



## joey

Adux said:


> Joey,
> 
> The Aussie Deal included spares, training, infrastructure, ammunitions etc. Please check your facts again on this.
> Tranche 3 is under-development, Rafale is fully developed.



nope, Rafale has teething issues once reported was with its voice system, i dont have the source but there are lots of issues, France is funding it though.

Trance 3 wont reach FOC before 2015...

Aussies already operates super hornets, so if for them it costs this much with infrastructure/ammunitions which all they have, imagine the cost it would be for India.




> So therefore the Eurofighter will be built in Europe and then the maintance factory will be built in India to support it in the future


No it will be build here, as it has been for all new purchases.


----------



## su-47

joey said:


> nope, Rafale has teething issues once reported was with its voice system, i dont have the source but there are lots of issues, France is funding it though.
> 
> Trance 3 wont reach FOC before 2015...
> 
> Aussies already operates super hornets, so if for them it costs this much with infrastructure/ammunitions which all they have, imagine the cost it would be for India.
> 
> No it will be build here, as it has been for all new purchases.



Aussies dont operate Super Hornets. They operate F/A-18C/D Hornets, which is different from the F/A-18E/F Super Hornets. They r considering buying Super Hornets


----------



## joey

whatever dude but they do have alkl infrastructures ready!
they have AMRAAM's so?


----------



## Adux

Joey,

Hornets and Super Hornets apart from the shape they are nothing alike, heck they dont even have the same series of engine,


----------



## timmy

su-47 said:


> What do u mean, 'we broke you in 1947'?



Dear check a dictionary or ask some elder, you'l find out what it means  




su-47 said:


> If u dont know about 1965 war, please do read. It was a stalemate where India inflicted more casualities on Pakistan. Pakistan attacked India and India lost land, but the Indians counterattacked and captured back the lost land. Then the Indian forces were on the offensive and would have won the war, but Uncle Sam imposed sanctions on both nations, forcing us to stop the fight and accept stalemate.



Keep on dreaming  Like i said before, the truth is hard to digest! You ppl can comment whatever you want or makes you happy, your only wasting posts on your beloved MIG-35 thread!


----------



## su-47

timmy said:


> Dear check a dictionary or ask some elder, you'l find out what it means
> :




I am sorry, but i dunno any dictionary or any elder that tells me that pakistan broke india in 1947. what i have learned is that pakistan 'broke away' from india, which is a different story alltogether. there's a difference between breaking someone and breaking away from someone. 



timmy said:


> Keep on dreaming  Like i said before, the truth is hard to digest! You ppl can comment whatever you want or makes you happy, your only wasting posts on your beloved MIG-35 thread!:bunny
> :



Ok, why dont u cite a neutral source that claims that pakistan was doing better than India in 1965. Then I'll admit that I'm dreaming. otherwise, its you who is dreaming.

Here's the Library of Congress Country Studies

The Indian gains led to a major Pakistani counterattack on September 1 in the southern sector, in Punjab, where Indian forces were caught unprepared and suffered heavy losses. The sheer strength of the Pakistani thrust, which was spearheaded by seventy tanks and two infantry brigades, led Indian commanders to call in air support. Pakistan retaliated on September 2 with its own air strikes in both Kashmir and Punjab. The war was at the point of stalemate when the UN Security Council unanimously passed a resolution on September 20 that called for a cease-fire. New Delhi accepted the cease-fire resolution on September 21 and Islamabad on September 22, and the war ended on September 23. The Indian side lost 3,000 while the Pakistani side suffered 3,800 battlefield deaths. The Soviet-brokered Tashkent Declaration was signed on January 10, 1966. It required that both sides withdraw by February 26, 1966, to positions held prior to August 5, 1965, and observe the cease-fire line agreed to on June 30, 1965.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+in0189)


----------



## su-47

and about MiG-35, many of its details are still undisclosed, so we dunno how good it will be. we'll have to wait and see. in the meanwhile, let us believe what we want to believe. i'll believe that its good. u can believ that its crap.


----------



## timmy

Well about your elders...broke...breaking...i know it hurts. PAKISTAN is there and there's nothing you can do about it! But dear i told you NOT to digress from MIG-35. So now this forum is gona be ruined because of you. 




Pakistani forces thrusting six miles deep into Indian territory the south-east of Lahore have checked the Indian offensive launched on September 6 against the capital of West Pakistan

Pakistani infantry supported by armor and guns were today entrenched six miles east of the Indian border, and well beyond Indian town of Khem Karan, the capture of which last week forced Indian tanks and men to make a hasty retreat

From Khem Karan, an ever-green village now deserted by its 15,000 people, a 40-mile road leads directly to Amritsar, holy capital of India&#8217;s restive Sikhs. And a Pakistani offensive along that road could threaten the rear of Indian forces still facing Lahore from East Punjab.

As I visited Khem Karan today with the first party of newsmen shown into India by Pakistani officers, evidence of the Indians&#8217; hasty withdrawal lay everywhere in the flat dust blown fields.

Intact mortars and American made ammunition, much of which was still crated, for 81 and 120 mm mortars, shells for 90 mm tank guns, rifle cartridges in hund #8B001As, stacks of fuel in barrel, had been left behind.

India had sent against Lahore one armou #8B001A brigade and two infantry divisions. The initial thrust on September 6, carried the Indians two and a half miles deep into Pakistan from Khem Karan and the Pakistanis say they were outnumbe #8B001A six to one.

The Pakistanis pushed the Indians back at the cost of bitter fighting. One Pakistani armou #8B001A unit ran into an Indian armou #8B001A regiment, the Ninth Royal Deccan Horse&#8230; and no shots were spa #8B001A.

I saw two Indian Sherman tanks on the road to Khem Karan blown clean through, one in the rear and one in the front, each by a single Pakistani shell with the dead crew still inside.

Indian dead lay unburied in the fields. An Indian border post was riddled with bullets and shells. This is real war, even though Pakistani infantry are now resting at forward posts, with Indians on the defensive and the main action in the air.

Indian British made Canberras, Soviet made Mig-21s and French made Mysteres and Ouragons constantly swoop, strafe and bomb from a safe altitude, for Pakistani anti-aircraft units are very much on the alert. On the the road from Lahore char #8B001A trucks lay twisted wrecks, one of them still aflame. It is war run by cool professionals, with every gun and tank well protected by camouflage nets, every trench where it should be, perfect discipline and very high morale.

Almost every Pakistani officers says: "we are not interested in territorial gains, but we are very keen to give the Indians a hard lesson and we won&#8217;t stop short of that

A.F.P. Corespondent,
reporting on September 9, 1965 

If you want lets keep on going or if you wanna talk about MIG-35 then talk MIG-35! Your Call


----------



## timmy

su-47 said:


> and about MiG-35, many of its details are still undisclosed, so we dunno how good it will be. we'll have to wait and see. in the meanwhile, let us believe what we want to believe. i'll believe that its good. u can believ that its crap.



Thats the v.reason why i havent said its crap beacause its NOT! Everyone knows its much better than the MIG-29 inside/out...everyone but you can see it because you are only interested in chatting crap!


----------



## su-47

timmy said:


> Well about your elders...broke...breaking...i know it hurts. PAKISTAN is there and there's nothing you can do about it! But dear i told you NOT to digress from MIG-35. So now this forum is gona be ruined because of you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani forces thrusting six miles deep into Indian territory the south-east of Lahore have checked the Indian offensive launched on September 6 against the capital of West Pakistan
> 
> Pakistani infantry supported by armor and guns were today entrenched six miles east of the Indian border, and well beyond Indian town of Khem Karan, the capture of which last week forced Indian tanks and men to make a hasty retreat
> 
> From Khem Karan, an ever-green village now deserted by its 15,000 people, a 40-mile road leads directly to Amritsar, holy capital of Indiaâs restive Sikhs. And a Pakistani offensive along that road could threaten the rear of Indian forces still facing Lahore from East Punjab.
> 
> As I visited Khem Karan today with the first party of newsmen shown into India by Pakistani officers, evidence of the Indiansâ hasty withdrawal lay everywhere in the flat dust blown fields.
> 
> Intact mortars and American made ammunition, much of which was still crated, for 81 and 120 mm mortars, shells for 90 mm tank guns, rifle cartridges in hund #8B001As, stacks of fuel in barrel, had been left behind.
> 
> India had sent against Lahore one armou #8B001A brigade and two infantry divisions. The initial thrust on September 6, carried the Indians two and a half miles deep into Pakistan from Khem Karan and the Pakistanis say they were outnumbe #8B001A six to one.
> 
> The Pakistanis pushed the Indians back at the cost of bitter fighting. One Pakistani armou #8B001A unit ran into an Indian armou #8B001A regiment, the Ninth Royal Deccan Horseâ¦ and no shots were spa #8B001A.
> 
> I saw two Indian Sherman tanks on the road to Khem Karan blown clean through, one in the rear and one in the front, each by a single Pakistani shell with the dead crew still inside.
> 
> Indian dead lay unburied in the fields. An Indian border post was riddled with bullets and shells. This is real war, even though Pakistani infantry are now resting at forward posts, with Indians on the defensive and the main action in the air.
> 
> Indian British made Canberras, Soviet made Mig-21s and French made Mysteres and Ouragons constantly swoop, strafe and bomb from a safe altitude, for Pakistani anti-aircraft units are very much on the alert. On the the road from Lahore char #8B001A trucks lay twisted wrecks, one of them still aflame. It is war run by cool professionals, with every gun and tank well protected by camouflage nets, every trench where it should be, perfect discipline and very high morale.
> 
> Almost every Pakistani officers says: "we are not interested in territorial gains, but we are very keen to give the Indians a hard lesson and we wonât stop short of that
> 
> A.F.P. Corespondent,
> reporting on September 9, 1965
> 
> If you want lets keep on going or if you wanna talk about MIG-35 then talk MIG-35! Your Call



This article is about one particular incident where the indians lost more men. but overall, pakistan lost more men, as i have quoted.

well anyway, as u said, we have diverted off topic, and i do apologise for that.


----------



## su-47

timmy said:


> Thats the v.reason why i havent said its crap beacause its NOT! Everyone knows its much better than the MIG-29 inside/out...everyone but you can see it because you are only interested in chatting crap!



Sorry about that. U r right, i assumed u were saying its crap when u said, "your only wasting posts on your beloved MIG-35 thread!" without actually thinking about what u were saying.


----------



## timmy

su-47 said:


> This article is about one particular incident where the indians lost more men. but overall, pakistan lost more men, as i have quoted.
> 
> well anyway, as u said, we have diverted off topic, and i do apologise for that.



I could have posted dozens more quotes and articles from International sources telling the entire picture of the 1965 War and its outcome!
We know what we did to you in 1965 and you know what you did to us in 1971.....and since you have apologised so I too will STOP here!

Now about the MIG-35, Im just surprised that NO ONE has mentioned anything about the "Smokeless Combustion Chamber" that has been installed on its new engine, an installation that has eliminated the renowned dark trail of smoke, that is so commonly seen on the MIG-29s!


----------



## timmy

Also i didn't read anywhere in the previous threads (though if someone has edited any of their posts and included this info later then my apologies) about the overall improvement in the engines of the MIG-35. As we all know that the new engine destined for MIG-35 is the Klimov RD-33MK, but this new engine will deliver a MAX thrust of 19,840 lb, which is 1540 lb more thrust than the MIG-29s RD-33 engine!

But if any one answers this question correctly, then i'l be quite impressed  

Is the MIG-35s Thrust Vectoring Control 'Manual' or 'FBW' ?


----------



## Contrarian

timmy said:


> Also i didn't read anywhere in the previous threads (though if someone has edited any of their posts and included this info later then my apologies) about the overall improvement in the engines of the MIG-35. As we all know that the new engine destined for MIG-35 is the Klimov RD-33MK, but this new engine will deliver a MAX thrust of 19,840 lb, which is 1540 lb more thrust than the MIG-29s RD-33 engine!


This is a very known fact my friend that the new smokeless combustion chambers are present in the new engine. There were many demonstrations of this in AI 07 and an Indian journalist was given a ride on the MiG 35 and he confirmed the same.



> But if any one answers this question correctly, then i'l be quite impressed
> 
> Is the MIG-35s Thrust Vectoring Control 'Manual' or 'FBW' ?




I have no idea what you mean by Manual or FBW. It certainly is not FBW as MiG 35 already incorporates digital FBW. 

TVC is essentially when the engine can control its thrust in any direction thereby making the plane superbly agile. The engine's exhaust will reposition itself depending on direction that the pilot is taking.


----------



## timmy

malaymishra123 said:


> This is a very known fact my friend that the new smokeless combustion chambers are present in the new engine. There were many demonstrations of this in AI 07 and an Indian journalist was given a ride on the MiG 35 and he confirmed the same.



Well if its such a well known fact then how come no one commented before  And oh maaan journalist??? My friend the name of the IAF Test Pilot who flew the MIG-35 alongside Russian MIG Test Pilot (Mikhail Belyaev) is Group Captain N Harish!!! Yeah i know that too was never mentioned here because it is a v.well known fact  




malaymishra123 said:


> I have no idea what you mean by Manual or FBW. It certainly is not FBW as MiG 35 already incorporates digital FBW.
> 
> TVC is essentially when the engine can control its thrust in any direction thereby making the plane superbly agile. The engine's exhaust will reposition itself depending on direction that the pilot is taking.



Your telling me what TVC is??? Hahahaha oh my gosh ... 
My friend the first experimental KLIVT nozzle that was tested was in 1997, when approx. 1000 changes were made in the nozzle settings in over 50 hours of hot testing...it was only in 2003 that movable nozzils were fitted to the experimental MIG-29 OVT (later which we all saw in Farnborough Air Show). During ALL these flights the nozzles were controlled MANUALLY by the pilot, only NOW the TVC has been installed in the aircrafts SDU-915OVT fly-by-wire control system  Now that too was a well known fact wasent it???


----------



## Contrarian

timmy said:


> Well if its such a well known fact then how come no one commented before  And oh maaan journalist??? My friend the name of the IAF Test Pilot who flew the MIG-35 alongside Russian MIG Test Pilot (Mikhail Belyaev) is Group Captain N Harish!!! Yeah i know that too was never mentioned here because it is a v.well known fact



No actually, i was not talking about the IAF test pilot, i was talking about a journalist who was given a ride on the MiG 35, his name is Vishu, and he works for NDTV.



> Your telling me what TVC is??? Hahahaha oh my gosh ...
> My friend the first experimental KLIVT nozzle that was tested was in 1997, when approx. 1000 changes were made in the nozzle settings in over 50 hours of hot testing...it was only in 2003 that movable nozzils were fitted to the experimental MIG-29 OVT (later which we all saw in Farnborough Air Show). During ALL these flights the nozzles were controlled MANUALLY by the pilot, only NOW the TVC has been installed in the aircrafts SDU-915OVT fly-by-wire control system



Well dude, since you are so knowledgeable why not post about the MiG 35, rather than asking others to do so


----------



## timmy

malaymishra123 said:


> Well dude, since you are so knowledgeable why not post about the MiG 35, rather than asking others to do so



Well i would like to post but only if you all stop posting and behaving like ill-mannered idiots!

Ok now there is one FUNDAMENTAL change/improvement in the MIG-35, which literally seperates it apart from the MIG-29 all together. I would actually even go on to say that in one department, its a jump preety much like our F-7Ps and F-7PGs! What is that? Common guys i being in PAKISTAN know all this, you all wanna-be experts should be telling this stuff to us all here...anybody from Bangalore????


----------



## Contrarian

You bore every one this way timmy. Just post what you know. Dont ask questions whether you know this or you know that!


----------



## timmy

LOL ok one has given up! I don't think anyone else is online nor read my previous post, so to be fair to other members and all those who are interested in the MIG-35, i'l give them some time to do some research! 
But common guys if you wanna know more about MIG-35 take my advice: Make sure you meet a Mig-29 Pilot...trust me you'l enjoy the discussion! 
I will wait and pop back later and hope to see someone with the answer!


----------



## Adux

timmy,

Ask you questions cuz nobody is going to research for you.


----------



## timmy

Adux,

LOL I've already asked my Question and haven't asked anyone to do the research for me because I know the answer  Thats why im giving time to all the MIG-35 wanna-be's to do the research themselves. And who ever comes back with the correct answer will get a "Shabaash" from me! 
2ppl given up...how many more to go? Hmmmmm....I'll BE BACK!


----------



## Contrarian

To answer your questions we would have to research it. And frankly no one is going to do it, so just, like i said, stop asking questions and post your posts.


----------



## EagleEyes

Is it thurst vectoring / more maneuverability / change in the engine? :S


----------



## timmy

Noop. The tests that were carried out on the MIG-29M2 'Surprisingly' showed that the larger dual-seat cockpit (which has a much better view and is more spacious by the way) had hardly any effect on the aircrafts aerodynamics/handling characterestics! So the MIG-35 too will retain this shape with the double/dual-seat canopy, but for single seaters the space in the interor will be arranged slightly different. 
Now boys this space in the 'Single Seat' version of MIG-35s has led to an installation of an additional fuel tank right behind the seat/pilot, which holds over 130 Gallons of fuel i.e. This Extra fuel will increase the range of the MIg-35 by a staggering '50&#37;' and will also be able to carry twice the weapons load as compared to the current fleet of IAF's old Mig-29s! Funny thing is the Indians themselves don't know which aircraft is best suited to full-fill their "Alice-in-wonderland like-dreams"!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Contrarian

Would it be called dorsal spine fuel load?


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## timmy

Well actually you could call it that! But it's not gona be like the F-16C/Ds of Greek/Israeli AF...you know that external thick dorsal spine/block at the back!


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## manibag

Russian claims that MiG-35 is even better than F-22 and easily supress US F-22 in electronic warfare and close combat.

It has some unique feature of OLS whcih can see the fighter aircraft up to 50 Kms and this supress the stealthy feature of any aircraft.


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## Averroes

That is a completely ludicrous statement. Isn't the mig 35 simply a modernised version of mig 29? It comes nowhere near F-22.

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## Keysersoze

manibag said:


> Russian claims that MiG-35 is even better than F-22 and easily supress US F-22 in electronic warfare and close combat.
> 
> It has some unique feature of OLS whcih can see the fighter aircraft up to 50 Kms and this supress the stealthy feature of any aircraft.



Oh hell no......... I am sorry but that is the biggest load of crap I have heard in a long time......

The Mig-35 may or may not be a good plane, but to compare it to a F-22 is plain ludicrous.


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## BricksAndStones

Pakistan broke away from India? Apart from drama-esque rhetoric, you're kidding right?


Pakistan is a day older than India, in the modern sense. August 14th, hello?!!


Pakistan never "broke away" from India; it was carved out BY the British, from BRITISH India.


The difference between India-Pakistan's case and Pakistan-Bangladesh's case is that in the latter, a third country (India) engineered the split whereas in the former the mother state (BRITISH India) became two independent daughter states by the decree of the mother state (Mountbatten's BRITISH India). Had it not gone this way, neither Pakistan, nor India would have appeared as they do today- both would have splintered into several sister nations, a-la Pakistan / Bangladesh.


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## vish

BricksAndStones said:


> Pakistan broke away from India? Apart from drama-esque rhetoric, you're kidding right?
> 
> 
> Pakistan is a day older than India, in the modern sense. August 14th, hello?!!
> 
> 
> Pakistan never "broke away" from India; it was carved out BY the British, from BRITISH India.
> 
> 
> The difference between India-Pakistan's case and Pakistan-Bangladesh's case is that in the latter, a third country (India) engineered the split whereas in the former the mother state (BRITISH India) became two independent daughter states by the decree of the mother state (Mountbatten's BRITISH India). Had it not gone this way, neither Pakistan, nor India would have appeared as they do today- both would have splintered into several sister nations, a-la Pakistan / Bangladesh.



Dude, wrong thread?


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## BricksAndStones

vish said:


> Dude, wrong thread?





Umm, no, actually.


I was replying to Timmy's comment on this thread [#129, specifically].


Permalink: http://www.defence.pk/forums/60181-post129.html


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## vish

BricksAndStones said:


> Umm, no, actually.
> 
> 
> I was replying to Timmy's comment on this thread [#129, specifically].
> 
> 
> Permalink: http://www.defence.pk/forums/60181-post129.html



well... next time... do quote him...


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## Zaheerkhan

I really hope that this aircraft gets picked by the Indian airforce...I wOULD RATHER WANT TO SEE MIG-35 in Indian colours rather than F-18's...


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## JK!

> Umm, no, actually.
> 
> 
> I was replying to Timmy's comment on this thread



Stick to the MiG 35 topic as opposed to bringing up old arguements and feuds.

Anyways what advantages does this aircraft hold over the proposed western ones.

I'd like to know something other than the relationship with Russia as a reason.


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## Super Falcon

I hope you get your wish but IAF wont thinks as you think dude


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## su-47

JK! said:


> Stick to the MiG 35 topic as opposed to bringing up old arguements and feuds.
> 
> Anyways what advantages does this aircraft hold over the proposed western ones.
> 
> I'd like to know something other than the relationship with Russia as a reason.



Advantages of MiG-35 to India

1) Cheaper: Its is expensive relative to other russian aircraft, but will be much cheaper than its western counterparts

2) Full ToT: Russians give full ToT. West is often more reluctant

3) Similarity: IAF has operated MiGs for decades, and currently operates MiG-29, on which Mig-35 is based. So logistical problems, need for new support structures etc will be much less with mig-35 than with all other MRCA contestants, except the rafale

Disadvantages: 

1) All eggs in one basket: With MKI, MiG-35, Mig-29 and later PAKFA in its inventory in coming years, IAF will almost completely be dependant on the Russians. The Russians will be able to put a lot of pressure on india this way

2) Spares: Russians are known for creating problems with spares. IAF learned this the hard way when Mig-23s were rendered almost inoperable due to lack of spares. Russians have offered to put up a facility in India to provide spares for Mig-35, but doubts still remain.

3) History of Russian aircraft: Russian aircraft generally have been known to have low operation readiness, lower sortie rates per day and less reliability than western birds. This was highlited in Kargil when Mirage 2000s had to do the job of bombing, which the designated ground attack aircraft, the Mig-27, couldnt do.

4) Cost hikes: The recent cost hikes imposed on IN for Gorshkov will surely create doubts in the mind of IAF top brass

5) Russia not inducting MiG-35: MiG-35 wont be inducted in the Russian airforce. as such, Russians have no real incentive to provide upgrades for it, or improve on the design. 

6) Technology: MiG-35 doesnt offer any new technology to India. India already operates MKI. The Zhuk-ME AESA shown off during Bangalore airshow isnt ready yet, and even if it was, India can get it when IAF gets PAKFA.

Altogether, MiG-35 doesnt look very good. but since Russia has a lot of influence in the MoD, MiG-35 remins a very strong contender.


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## gromell

I think Joey is right. For the role that the Indians want to fit in their 126 aircrafts, the best option is to go with Mig-35(i just love these new babies or if not Mig-35 then Rafale.


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## saiko

Keysersoze said:


> We gotta ask wether this is actually viable in ACM.....maybe someone should ask MURADk wether it is actually of any use. Or is it just a air show manoevere....



i would think if you have to turn completely around to fire a missile at someone they've already fired one at you.

i think the Israeli Python V can be fired backwards with lock after launch, so that would probably be more practical.


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## SSGPA1

*USA and EU have been supporting India so that they can sell their equipment.

It will be a miracle that India willl give 126 MRCA order to Russia.

This MRCA deal is only going to benefit USA and EU.*

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## Hellfire

SSGPA1 said:


> *USA and EU have been supporting India so that they can sell their equipment.
> 
> It will be a miracle that India willl give 126 MRCA order to Russia.
> 
> This MRCA deal is only going to benefit USA and EU.*



i totally agree with your assessment .... but it wont be US(I shall be mightily surprised if they do win the contract) but in fact French with their Rafael as the biggest clincher is 

1. A dedicated line for India (IAF plans an add on order of 60-80 more ACs) is being offered. (Similar to Mirage-2000 line offer before it was closed)

2. The complete technology for AESA Radars is being offered with source code too, an offer which is too sweet as that enables India to build an own AESA Radar for Tejas LCA as also modify the mission parameters for the Rafaels which shall be inducted (if so is the case)

3. Also the US and India differ over EULA especially the on-site verification clause which is a no-go for IAF for its frontline strike ACs atleast .....same as in P-8Is for IN


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## saiko

I think the Russians will win. The terms of the MRCA are ridiculous - last I read India wants 50&#37; industrial offset which most competitors simply can not do - mainly because their domestic defence industry is in desperate need of tech transfers after one debacle after another.

The French might be desperate enough for sales to sell India the Rafale, but India will probably regret it later when France nickel and dimes them for every penny they can.


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## Contrarian

I think its most likely that Russians will not win. Not by a long shot. Just too many factors against the MiG 35, and not the least being MoD and the IN being pis$ed over the Gorshkov issue.


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## sancho

malaymishra123 said:


> I think its most likely that Russians will not win. Not by a long shot. Just too many factors against the MiG 35, and not the least being MoD and the IN being pis over the Gorshkov issue.



That's it! With upg Mig 27 & 29, Su 30 Mki, coming Pak Fa we have enough fighters to rely on Russia. MRCA must be some western that makes IAF less reliable on one partner and gives us more new stuff, AESA radar, SC engines, new weapons, or EWS like Spectra. 
Mig 35 might be a good aircraft, but it gives us only AESA radar as a new feature, we already have Russian weapons and TVC so that can't be the best way to go.


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## anoopsaxena76

sancho said:


> That's it! With upg Mig 27 & 29, Su 30 Mki, coming Pak Fa we have enough fighters to rely on Russia. MRCA must be some western that makes IAF less reliable on one partner and gives us more new stuff, AESA radar, SC engines, new weapons, or EWS like Spectra.
> Mig 35 might be a good aircraft, but it gives us only AESA radar as a new feature, we already have Russian weapons and TVC so that can't be the best way to go.



I disagree. A plane is a platform. The whole thing should cut the best deal for the IAF and for it's requirements. Not just one or two things. How do we fight sanctions? At least Russians have never sanctioned us. There were problems of spares in the past but that was due to USSR's break up rather than the unwillingness on anyone's part. I am not saying Mig-35 is the winner. All I am saying is that I do not see Mig-35 as outright loser in this bid as well. 
In MHO, it is the Super Hornets and the Gripens that probably are in the last rung of competition as competitors.

Regards,
Anoop.


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## Super Falcon

no doubt about the planes is best out of best but can u post some pics of the jet


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## anoopsaxena76

Super Falcon said:


> no doubt about the planes is best out of best but can u post some pics of the jet



 Actually I can do with some information on Mig-35. There is not much known about this plane 

Regards,
Anoop.


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## sancho

anoopsaxena76 said:


> I disagree. A plane is a platform. The whole thing should cut the best deal for the IAF and for it's requirements. Not just one or two things.



That's what I meant, Mig 35 provides us only one or two things (AESA and as a package much ToT), but Rafale offers that all too + new western techs like meteor, or Spectra EWS. EF is one of the best fighters right now and is offered with a full partnership that also will give us much access to the best western techs. These offers will improve IAF and it's capabilities much more then to have only more Russian stuff that we already have.
I see Rafale in front cause it's the best package (a good fighter, full ToT + source codes, meteor, Spectra, carrier capabilities, price per unit should be better then EF and we don't have to build up new logistics), and then maybe EF. Also France was a reliable partner in the past and could be a good partner for future co developments (fighters, subs, carriers, tanks...) like we do with Russia.


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## anoopsaxena76

sancho said:


> That's what I meant, Mig 35 provides us only one or two things (AESA and as a package much ToT), but Rafale offers that all too + new western techs like meteor, or Spectra EWS. EF is one of the best fighters right now and is offered with a full partnership that also will give us much access to the best western techs.



Frankly I do not know much about Mig-35. It came out of nowhere into the picture and I await more information on it. 




sancho said:


> These offers will improve IAF and it's capabilities much more then to have only more Russian stuff that we already have.



How? We may already have Russian technology filling our Airbases to the brim but that is a different point altogether. We have to choose the best platform for our needs. Whether it is Russian / European / American how does it matter?



sancho said:


> I see Rafale in front cause it's the best package (a good fighter, full ToT + source codes, meteor, Spectra, carrier capabilities, price per unit should be better then EF and we don't have to build up new logistics), and then maybe EF.



Why do you think it's the best package.  I am not saying it is not nor am I saying it is. But just would like to know why do you say that. Let's have a healthy discussion on this 




sancho said:


> Also France was a reliable partner in the past and could be a good partner for future co developments (fighters, subs, carriers, tanks...) like we do with Russia.



There is never a reliable partner in the international scheme of things. A nation always goes by what it deems necessary at that point in time. 

Regards,
Anoop.


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## Bull

Get the Rafaels !!! I have even heard typhoons are being closely discussed even with such a high price tag.


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## saiko

malaymishra123 said:


> I think its most likely that Russians will not win. Not by a long shot. Just too many factors against the MiG 35, and not the least being MoD and the IN being pis over the Gorshkov issue.



The French are the only serious competitor other than the Russians.

If you think you're getting the EF you're going to be sorely dissapointed. They are having immense problems with India's ridiculous IO terms in the MRCA to address serious deficiencies in their defence industry. It's completely unheard of to require that level of IO in this kind of open competition.


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## messenger

nor the mig-35 nor typhoon will be selected . its either rafale or f-18 ( weaker candidate ) .
typhoon - ridiculously high cost , not medium but heavy class fighter
mig-35 - russian , we will have to think of some other country now . cant give all the contracts to russians . but i think that if india didnt have mki then it would have definitely gone for mig-35 .


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## sancho

anoopsaxena76 said:


> How? We may already have Russian technology filling our Airbases to the brim but that is a different point altogether. We have to choose the best platform for our needs. Whether it is Russian / European / American how does it matter?



For example Rafale, or EF gives us more variety in weapons (EU and US) that we can use for different missions, if we get another Russion fighter the weapons will still be the same. 
Or in case of ToT it would be much better for us to get knowledge of western techs, then get Mig 35 ToT. We use Mig 29 for years, know the aircraft pretty good and will surely get some knowledge of their latest techs through Pak Fa coop. Also if we really consider to go for MCA (or other future fighter), any *new* knowledge that helps to fill the lack of experience is good for us.



anoopsaxena76 said:


> Why do you think it's the best package.  I am not saying it is not nor am I saying it is. But just would like to know why do you say that. Let's have a healthy discussion on this



Originally Posted by sancho 
I see Rafale in front cause it's the *best package (a good fighter, full ToT + source codes, meteor, Spectra, carrier capabilities, price per unit should be better then EF and we don't have to build up new logistics*), and then maybe EF.
[/QUOTE]

And if you just compare the fighters, I think it has the best multi role capabilities. Very agile with canards and low weight, plus low RCS benefits a2a role, also the most weapon stations and payload makes it good for a2g role. It might not be the best in one of this roles (imo EF for a2a and F18SH for a2g) but it fits perfectly in between of them, or LCA and SU 30 Mki of IAF.

Like I said before, Mig 35 gives IAF much to less that would worth the $40Mil per unit because except AESA radar, Mig 29 and Su 30 Mki are offering anything else right now.


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## sancho

saiko said:


> The French are the only serious competitor other than the Russians.
> 
> If you think you're getting the EF you're going to be sorely dissapointed. They are having immense problems with India's ridiculous IO terms in the MRCA to address serious deficiencies in their defence industry. It's completely unheard of to require that level of IO in this kind of open competition.



On the other hand the EF member countries have serious funding problems right now, most of them are considering to reduce their original order. So a new member with enough money would be warmly welcomed.


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## Raptorkiller

the mig 35 is the most maneovarable modern day aircraft with 3-D tvc
allowin g complete 360 degree movable.this means it has extreme maneoverility.the f-22 has maneuverability less than the basic mig 29A.
besides the mig 35 has much improved modern weapons and avionics than the f-22.the f-22 is no match for the mig-35.why the hell the indian government is not buying the mig-35?


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## nightcrawler



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## applesauce

Raptorkiller said:


> the mig 35 is the most maneovarable modern day aircraft with 3-D tvc
> allowin g complete 360 degree movable.this means it has extreme maneoverility.the f-22 has maneuverability less than the basic mig 29A.
> besides the mig 35 has much improved modern weapons and avionics than the f-22.the f-22 is no match for the mig-35.why the hell the indian government is not buying the mig-35?



because the government dont fall for ADs so easily and know that a F-22 with annihilate a mig-35 599 out of 600 engagements?


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## Luftwaffe

But still F-18 seems to top mrca


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## letsbefriends

i think mig 35 will be the best bet for india..russia is the only country which provides india with sophisticated hardware n technology that no else can..americans r not to be trusted...EF n RAFALE is too expensive.just a guess though


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## Luftwaffe

following are pics mig-35 that somewhat resembles like f-15/f-14


A look like F-15






assume mini F-14





looks of F-14





looks alike 





rear view MIG-35 or F-15?


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## Raptorkiller

applesauce said:


> because the government dont fall for ADs so easily and know that a F-22 with annihilate a mig-35 599 out of 600 engagements?



i am sorry my friend,but the result will be the very opposite with what 
you think.just take of that stealth from your f-22 and your f-22 is less
capable than a basic mig-29 in both wvr and bvr too. because the range of your stupid amraams(AIM-120C) are only 65kms.while the MIG 29 carries the deadly alamo with a range of 130kms(max).while your sidewinders(AIM 9X) are of only range 15kms while the newest archers are of more tha 40kms of range.no comparision.also the maneouvirility of the basic mig-29 is far greater than the f-22.and for that stealth,dont worry,the newest radar on the mig-35(that will be mass produced) will easily see the f-22 from 60kms.and there are very advanced ground radars also that are always active and will see the f-22 from more tthan 100kms.so all your f-22s stealth is over.if f-22 fires amraam it will simply be evaded,and the mig 35 will get closer to easily knock out f-22 with archer(the most maneovarable dogfighting missile in the world,it has 3dtvc).


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## gowthamraj

pls dont miss this beauty IAF


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## gowthamraj

btw when the short list going to be announced


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