# Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts



## mourning sage

what are the Mirage, F7pg and other combat aircrafts except Jf-17 and F-16 capable of and what threat can they pose to IAF??


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## ARIZ ZAFAR

they are outdated and do not pose any threat to iaf.thanks to PAF now they are acquiring new aircrafts.but it will take some time.iaf is too big and now they are inducting more aircrafts.even their MIG-21bison is very efficient air crafts,and night capable.we have high quality pilots but they must be complemented with good aircrafts than only we can compare ourselves ti iaf.the process for induction in PAF has started but would love to see an european fighter than a Chinese one.

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## Imran Khan

f-7pgs are same as MIG-21 dude even f-7 has new air frame then MIGs and do you check the record of nig-21 crash rate? our f-7s are main interceptors on all over Pakistan . abut mirages you know some thing what shape they got after rose upgrade? they can fire cruse missiles ans BVRs with air refueling they are working horses bro. you underestimate them because they are old then you have to know f-7s are newer then our our f-16 and mirages 50 which we got from Libya they was brand new. there is much much power in these air crafts. yes they have to be replace but mirage rose and f-7pg will never grab as you think.you know who much they are 400 jets.just think again.

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## pakfighter

Imran Khan said:


> f-7pgs are same as MIG-21 dude even f-7 has new air frame then MIGs and do you check the record of nig-21 crash rate? our f-7s are main interceptors on all over Pakistan . abut mirages you know some thing what shape they got after rose upgrade? they can fire cruse missiles ans BVRs with air refueling they are working horses bro. you underestimate them because they are old then you have to know f-7s are newer then our our f-16 and mirages 50 which we got from Libya they was brand new. there is much much power in these air crafts. yes they have to be replace but mirage rose and f-7pg will never grab as you think.you know who much they are 400 jets.just think again.



hello sir i have a question to you if you give me answer thanks in advance. sir when we enter/replace jf-17 in PAF whole F7s and mirages will be ground or some will be remain in paf fleet.

regards

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## M8R

They will be retired and scraped!


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## mugundhan

Imran Khan said:


> f-7pgs are same as MIG-21 dude



dude mig -21 bison is day/night capable/BVR/better radar than f-7
i agree crash rate (due to age and during training ).but mig -21 bison crash rate is very small.

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## swati

ARIZ ZAFAR said:


> they are outdated and do not pose any threat to iaf.thanks to PAF now they are acquiring new aircrafts.but it will take some time.iaf is too big and now they are inducting more aircrafts.even their MIG-21bison is very efficient air crafts,and night capable.we have high quality pilots but they must be complemented with good aircrafts than only we can compare ourselves ti iaf.the process for induction in PAF has started but would love to see an european fighter than a Chinese one.




Kafir hai Toa karta hai Shamsheer per bharosa; Momin hai to Bai Taigh bhi larrta hai sipahi.


i am sure our boys can handle any pressure when put to the test.......

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## Imran Khan

mugundhan said:


> dude mig -21 bison is day/night capable/BVR/better radar than f-7
> i agree crash rate (due to age and during training ).but mig -21 bison crash rate is very small.



first post and start 

so you think f-7s are not going to be upgrade ? they got better radar and avioncs with new air frames. abut mig-21 there is nothing worse then this that a country still fly them even this bird kill 300 poilets and civils with label of flying coffen

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## Imran Khan

pakfighter said:


> hello sir i have a question to you if you give me answer thanks in advance. sir when we enter/replace jf-17 in PAF whole F7s and mirages will be ground or some will be remain in paf fleet.
> 
> regards



mirage rose-3 and f7pg are with us until 2020

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## Areesh

pakfighter said:


> hello sir i have a question to you if you give me answer thanks in advance. sir when we enter/replace jf-17 in PAF whole F7s and mirages will be ground or some will be remain in paf fleet.
> 
> regards



Till 2015 atleast 150 jf-17 would be inducted in PAF and would replace Mirages and F-7's. However some Mirages and F-7's might still be in the use after 2015 for some years.

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## ANG

Hi, the IAF MiG-21 Bison is BVR capable and went through a comprehensive electronics and radar upgrade, only the engine was not changed. It is a potent platform. The PAF needs to urgently replace its F-7s and Mirages with the JF-17. The Mirages have been upgraded and the F-7PG is a new platform, but still will show their age in a few years. Thanks!

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## swati

Areesh said:


> However some Mirages and F-7's might still be in the use after 2015 for some years.




I cant understand why people underestimate the mirages and F-7's...How bad can they be....
F-7 is a good interceptor and mirage can carry almost anything what more do you want.

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## Nav

pakfighter said:


> hello sir i have a question to you if you give me answer thanks in advance. sir when we enter/replace jf-17 in PAF whole F7s and mirages will be ground or some will be remain in paf fleet.
> 
> regards



Rose upgraded mirages will be dedicated to PN. PG's will remain in service till 2020 as they r inducted in 2002. And simple F7 air guards wil b gifted to bangladesh .

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## Imran Khan

Navkhan said:


> Rose upgraded mirages will be dedicated to PN. PG's will remain in service till 2020 as they r inducted in 2002. And simple F7 air guards wil b gifted to bangladesh .



they no need gift and we no need to give them because last time we gift them and they lose it in flood water. so batter gift to someone else.

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## Nav

mugundhan said:


> dude mig -21 bison is day/night capable/BVR/better radar than f-7
> i agree crash rate (due to age and during training ).but mig -21 bison crash rate is very small.



hahaha, dude f-7 pg is upgraded with westren avionics and Grifo S-7 Radar

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## Comet

F7 and Mirage are here to stay for a long time. There replacement is JF-17 thunder and it will take long time to to induct JF and take out those F7's and Mirage. Moreover, these birds are awesome and relatively in good condition and would go with us for long time.


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## razgriz19

Navkhan said:


> hahaha, dude f-7 pg is upgraded with westren avionics and Grifo S-7 Radar



ya but PG is still not BVR capable, Bison is..

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## bc040400065



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## ARIZ ZAFAR

Well sometimes you need to criticize the government machinery.we can not sit back and say "whatever we have is good and in fine condition".It is the lack of government' decision maker's thats's why we couldn't replace these jets.MIRAGE-III(ROSE UPGRADE) is decent fighter but above all it need's replacement.our neighbors have better version,so we really can't compare with them.
PAF would have been the best air force if we would have not lost 15-20 years due to government's incompetency.J-7 is not comparable to MIG-21(BISON) at all.J-7 upgraded also lack in BVR.the crashes in the iaf was due to the act that they didn't had a good trainer.now look at them how many MIG-21(BISON) have crashed?we know we have the best training and our pilots are really great but if we don't have any potent fighter we are limiting their abilities.
This is the right time for PAF to go all out and maintain few air crafts but deadly ones so that we should also have good and deadly fighter's to counter any attack.Inshaaallah very soon that will happen.

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## Mani2020

Imran Khan said:


> mirage rose-3 and f7pg are with us until 2020



No i dont think imran bhai that mirage rose-3 will be with us till 2020,they have spent enough of their life plus we cant afford to hold them for another 10 years as the technology is advancing rapidly 

For me we will have f-7PG's till 2015 and no mirages , Our 18 new f-16's and another 14 f-16's (under negotiation) plus some refurbished one from USA will replace aprox three squadron of non Rose mirages till 2012 and till then we will also have aprox 4 squadrons of jf-17 to replace A-5's and few more non rose mirages 

And the the ultimate arrival of FC-20's will see of the Rose Mirages,while on the other hand the increasing number of jf-17 will see of F-7 M and F-7p's

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## Tempest II

Navkhan said:


> hahaha, dude f-7 pg is upgraded with westren avionics and Grifo S-7 Radar



The F-7s will have the Grifo-MG or Grifo-PG. The Grifo-S7 was meant for the JF-17.

Here is what I have for the specifications of the KLJ-6F:






I find it hard to believe that Bangladesh and Namibia went for the Grifo-MG is it was not better than the above. I conclude that the Grifo-MG is BVR capable. Would be interesting to know what radar Nigeria went for.

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## Storm Force

I actually like the F7PG air frame it looks far more modern than then much older BISON OF THE iaf. 

THE PAF should look to upgrade the F7PG with a bvr capability and better jammers. 

If this is done properly there would be very little diffrence between the Thunder and F7PG in overall ability.

PAF only acquired some of their F7 9 years ago.


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## mourning sage

How many hardpoints does the upgraded Mirage and f-7 contain and which misiles can they carry?

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## mourning sage

majority of our jets don't have the capability to launch BVR misiles and do not have any good jamming systems. i assume that they would not last longer infront of the 124 strong fleet of su30 and other lethal iaf machines.
we not only need to undergo massive upgradations but also induct some state of the art aircrafts perhaps hornet or rafale. but again who would sell them to us with india pressurizing the respective countries.


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## Nav

PAF might be looking To Replace Non-rose mirages and F-7 with Jf-17, possibilty that PG's will be upgraded to Bvr capability, after arrivial of Fc-20 and possible upgradation of Jf-17 blk 2. All 3rd generation will be replaced.

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## razgriz19

gohar321 said:


> How many hardpoints does the upgraded Mirage and f-7 contain and which misiles can they carry?



the amount of hardponts are same...which is 5
in PAF they carry maximum of two A to A missiles...
missiles are aim -9, pl -5, pl -9
mirage can also carry couple of french origin short rannge missiles

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## Nishan_101

I wanted to ask a question to our senior members that why didn't our air force take the licence production of Mirage-2000s(of about 200-250 aircraft) from france like in 1980s and try to start negotiating in early 1980s and start production like in 1986 and continue till 2000. Then our air force would be much better than now.


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## Imran Khan

Nishan_101 said:


> I wanted to ask a question to our senior members that why didn't our air force take the licence production of Mirage-2000s(of about 200-250 aircraft) from france like in 1980s and try to start negotiating in early 1980s and start production like in 1986 and continue till 2000. Then our air force would be much better than now.



bro this time in 2010 mirage2000 is not on any country wish list . its now v.old . and production lines are closed in france. there is no new mirage2000 is in world. we need some thing like j-10 refale eu fighter and then we have to go in 5th gen fighter not to waste money on 30 years old jet.

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## Storm Force

Pakistan is currently looking at 200+ Thunders as the back bone of its air force. 

These cost around &#163;12-15m each. 

The hitech fighters start at $60m each going up to over $100m each for F35 Typhpoon & rafael 

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY BUDGETS. 

PAF has a fraction of the budgets of air forces like China India Saudi and Korea and Taiwan. 

There lies the problem. 

The answer is Thunder x 200 and slowly upgrade 

small nos of J10/FC20

F16 ON GRANT AID.

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## Super Falcon

well F 7 is still good interceptor against Mig 21 bis our pilots have bettter trainening than IAF pilots so what ever flaws F 7 has which i dont think so even if it has slight miss advantage it wont metter because trainning of pilot will come in account too


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## pakfighter

how many F-7pgs and mirage rose we have?

regards


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## Storm Force

Super falcon 

Wats this myth of PAF pilots having better training than Indians. 

The IAF is far more modern air power and has better training fascilities, more money, and better expo9sure to overseas partners than pakistan. 

PAF infact have not fired a shot in angar since then end of the Russian invasion of Afghnistan in 1989 . 

More made up statements with no proof.

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## Storm Force

PAK FIGHTER current PAF fleet.

170 F7/F7PG
150 Mirage3/5
60 F16 ABCD
10+ Thunders 

On other words 80&#37; of PAF fleet is F7/MIRAGE3/5


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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> Super falcon
> 
> Wats this myth of PAF pilots having better training than Indians.
> 
> The IAF is far more modern air power and has better training fascilities, more money, and better expo9sure to overseas partners than pakistan.
> 
> PAF infact have not fired a shot in angar since then end of the Russian invasion of Afghnistan in 1989 .
> 
> More made up statements with no proof.



Perhaps you need to do some serious homework.. before stating hateful and dumb comments.. Pakistan Airforce is known to be one of the best in the world in traning and other fields you state PAF has not fired a single shot... what do you think they are doing in the wot wake up and don't hate PAF is one of the best on the world and only getting better now take that to the bank and go read up to gain some knowledge which you seem to really need

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## mourning sage

Storm Force said:


> Pakistan is currently looking at 200+ Thunders as the back bone of its air force.
> 
> These cost around £12-15m each.
> 
> The hitech fighters start at $60m each going up to over $100m each for F35 Typhpoon & rafael
> 
> ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY BUDGETS.
> 
> PAF has a fraction of the budgets of air forces like China India Saudi and Korea and Taiwan.
> 
> There lies the problem.
> 
> The answer is Thunder x 200 and slowly upgrade
> 
> small nos of J10/FC20
> 
> F16 ON GRANT AID.


well the 15-20m cost of jf-17 is just for the initial stages. after the upgradations it will be above that for sure.


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## mourning sage

Super Falcon said:


> well F 7 is still good interceptor against Mig 21 bis our pilots have bettter trainening than IAF pilots so what ever flaws F 7 has which i dont think so even if it has slight miss advantage it wont metter because trainning of pilot will come in account too



Yes but again that could be limiting the abilities of our well trained pilots. 
even though are pilots are much better than Indian pilots but we still require technology that can unleash hell on those indians!!!!!

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## mourning sage

i agree with Topgun.
n yeah Storm Force ur information is outdated about paf.
paf shot down an indian drone in 2002, becoming the first country to shoot down an UAV.
here is the link:

Indian drones operated by Israelis: PAF Chief - World - The Times of India

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## Storm Force

Topgun. 

Stop banging your head. 

To be the best in the world you need to prove it. Or in deed one the best in the world plz explain how & why 

Never mind wat the Fan boys tell us on PAK defense forums,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, show me the reasons why PAF pilots are world class or even close. 

I,ll give you 5 reasons why they are not. to start with

1. Very poorly equipped dated equipment compared top air forces both western and Arab and some east asian. 
2. Virtually no real combat history for 2 decades
3. No show in Kargil dispite IAF flying over 500 SORTIES in support of their army.
4. Very small budget now and in the for seeable future 
5. No written independant article showing PAF to be anything other than a well trained second class air force. 

Second class based on Historical performance current equipment and near future equipment too. 

WORLD CLASS is USA and bigger NATO ally,s standard like RAF LUFTWAFFE & TURKEY or very rich nations Like Japan French 
or 
Combat proven Israeli

Even the likes of PLAAF Saudi or Indians cant be classed as World class despite being far better equipped than PAF today and in the future

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## hataf

Storm Force said:


> Topgun.
> 
> Stop banging your head.
> 
> To be the best in the world you need to prove it. Or in deed one the best in the world plz explain how & why
> 
> Never mind wat the Fan boys tell us on PAK defense forums,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, show me the reasons why PAF pilots are world class or even close.
> 
> I,ll give you 5 reasons why they are not. to start with
> 
> 1. Very poorly equipped dated equipment compared top air forces both western and Arab and some east asian.
> 2. Virtually no real combat history for 2 decades
> 3. No show in Kargil dispite IAF flying over 500 SORTIES in support of their army.
> 4. Very small budget now and in the for seeable future
> 5. No written independant article showing PAF to be anything other than a well trained second class air force.
> 
> Second class based on Historical performance current equipment and near future equipment too.
> 
> WORLD CLASS is USA and bigger NATO ally,s standard like RAF LUFTWAFFE & TURKEY or very rich nations Like Japan French
> or
> Combat proven Israeli
> 
> Even the likes of PLAAF Saudi or Indians cant be classed as World class despite being far better equipped than PAF today and in the future



1967 Arab-Israeli 'Six-Day' War

RJAF and PAF were flying under a joint command. Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam became the only pilot from the Arab side to have shot down 3 IDF/AF aircraft within 72 hours and also the only pilot to have shot down 3 different aircraft types of the IDF/AF. He was, subsequently, decorated by Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Pakistan


1973 Arab-Israeli 'Yom Kippur' War


During the war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to go to the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived, Egypt had already been pushed into a ceasefire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel.

On 23 October 1973, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. M. Hatif on deputation to Egyptian Air Force (EAF) was flying a EAF MiG-21 in a defensive combat air patrol (CAP) over Egypt when he was vectored towards an intruding Israeli Air Force (IDF/AF) F-4 Phantom. In the ensuing dogfight, Flt. Lt. M. Hatif shot down the Israeli Phantom.

Eight (8) PAF pilots started flying out of Syrian Airbases; they formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr Airbase. The Pakistani pilots flew Syrian MiG-21 aircraft conducting CAP missions for the Syrians.

On 26 April 1974, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi on deputation to No. 67 Squadron, Syrian Air Force (SAF) was flying a SAF MiG-21FL Fishbed (Serial No. 1863) out of Dumayr Air Base, Syria in a two-ship formation with a fellow PAF pilot and the Flight Leader, Sqn. Ldr. Arif Manzoor. The Ground Controller, also a PAF officer, Sqn. Ldr. Salim Metla, vectored the two PAF pilots to a formation of 2 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJs and 2 F-4 Phantoms that had intruded into Syrian airspace over the Golan Heights. In the engagement that took place at 1532 hours, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Mirage IIICJ using his MiG-21's R(K)-13 Air-to-Air Missile. The pilot of the downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz of No. 5 Air Wing, who ejected. The remaining Israeli fighters aborted the mission. The 2 IAF Mirage IIICJs were from Hatzor AFB and the 2 IAF F-4 Phantoms were from No. 1 Air Wing, Ramat David AFB, Israel.

Flt. Lt. A. Sattar Alvi became the first Pakistani pilot, during the Yom Kippur War, to shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat.He was honored by the Syrian government. Other aerial encounters involved Israeli F-4 Phantoms; Pakistan Air Force did not lose a single pilot or aircraft during this war.
--------------------------------------------------------
you have stated that Israel air force is best, thats what PAF did with IAF, just a peak in history

your combat proven IAF....

if PAF can beat the @$$ of your best air force

i don't know what to say ............

and it is that time when IAF is at their best of combat experience .... 



one more note

on ward to that, when ever Israelis have a hint that they are going against PAF, they just ran out from combat.

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## Storm Force

SO PAF pilots where flying in 1967 against the Israelis.

Thats great. 

History tells us the Israelis won that war in 6 days knocking out 5 arab air forces in the process. Hundreds of Combat planes. 

THATS not world class my friend. 

Are you telling me that PAF pilots are in the same league as 

USA RAF Germany ISRAELI and JAPAN. because this is wat i call world class. ????

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## hataf

Storm Force said:


> SO PAF pilots where flying in 1967 against the Israelis.
> 
> Thats great.
> 
> History tells us the Israelis won that war in 6 days knocking out 5 arab air forces in the process. Hundreds of Combat planes.
> 
> THATS not world class my friend.
> 
> Are you telling me that PAF pilots are in the same league as
> 
> USA RAF Germany ISRAELI and JAPAN. because this is wat i call world class. ????



you r asking about the pilot skills of PAF

and i have given u an example of paf pilot skills that
when Arabs are going down like flies PAF shoot down the Israelis

so who is better skilled thats all i am saying

Israelis won no doubt, but tell me first, u r discussing the skills of pilots or winning of battle

i have highlited some part in red for u

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## Storm Force

Okay lets get back to the TOPIC 

F7PG and Mirage 3/5 ARE THEY ANY GOOD wat use are they to PAF today compared to their natural enemy. 

ie 

124 SU30MKI 
51 MIRAGE 2000
63 MIG29M
125 BISONS MIG21
100 JAGUAR
120 MIG27M 

My answer F7PG & MIRAGE3/5 are very useful to take out 220 mig27/ jaguars since these planes are only bombers strike planes.

the PAF mirage3/5 & F7PG will 50/50 at best against the BVR equipped bisons. 

Finally F7PG ?MIRAGE 3/5 will lose to 234 su30mki/mirage2000/mig29 combo

IF YOU DISAGREE PLZ TELL ME WHY 

F7PG & MIRAGE3/5 nos are 320+ in PAF or 80&#37; of the entire fleet today

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## mourning sage

Storm Force said:


> Topgun.
> 
> Stop banging your head.
> 
> To be the best in the world you need to prove it. Or in deed one the best in the world plz explain how & why
> 
> Never mind wat the Fan boys tell us on PAK defense forums,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, show me the reasons why PAF pilots are world class or even close.
> 
> I,ll give you 5 reasons why they are not. to start with
> 
> 1. Very poorly equipped dated equipment compared top air forces both western and Arab and some east asian.
> 2. Virtually no real combat history for 2 decades
> 3. No show in Kargil dispite IAF flying over 500 SORTIES in support of their army.
> 4. Very small budget now and in the for seeable future
> 5. No written independant article showing PAF to be anything other than a well trained second class air force.
> 
> Second class based on Historical performance current equipment and near future equipment too.
> 
> WORLD CLASS is USA and bigger NATO ally,s standard like RAF LUFTWAFFE & TURKEY or very rich nations Like Japan French
> or
> Combat proven Israeli
> 
> Even the likes of PLAAF Saudi or Indians cant be classed as World class despite being far better equipped than PAF today and in the future



all these problems are associated only with the paf, not the pilots of the air force:
outdated equipment, smaller budget. If i understood anything incorrectly, please explain me


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## mourning sage

Storm Force said:


> Okay lets get back to the TOPIC
> 
> F7PG and Mirage 3/5 ARE THEY ANY GOOD wat use are they to PAF today compared to their natural enemy.
> 
> ie
> 
> 124 SU30MKI
> 51 MIRAGE 2000
> 63 MIG29M
> 125 BISONS MIG21
> 100 JAGUAR
> 120 MIG27M
> 
> My answer F7PG & MIRAGE3/5 are very useful to take out 220 mig27/ jaguars since these planes are only bombers strike planes.
> 
> the PAF mirage3/5 & F7PG will 50/50 at best against the BVR equipped bisons.
> 
> Finally F7PG ?MIRAGE 3/5 will lose to 234 su30mki/mirage2000/mig29 combo
> 
> IF YOU DISAGREE PLZ TELL ME WHY
> 
> F7PG & MIRAGE3/5 nos are 320+ in PAF or 80% of the entire fleet today



Well i dont think that we will just use f7pg n mirages in the whole battle and our f-16s and jf-17s will be show pieces!!!!


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## razgriz19

Nishan_101 said:


> I wanted to ask a question to our senior members that why didn't our air force take the licence production of Mirage-2000s(of about 200-250 aircraft) from france like in 1980s and try to start negotiating in early 1980s and start production like in 1986 and continue till 2000. Then our air force would be much better than now.



simple answer...PAF wanted to induct mirage but the price was high...well it wasn't too high but it wasn't under our budget!

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## Super Falcon

storm force tell you one thing in that israqel war pakistan at the end of war sended the pilots when israelis have edge over syrians than syrians requested for help we only sended few and all of them got in one piece and who ever got in their way in last days of war got only ashes and few only got away and pilots skills will not come with money if money can buy skills than world's richest brunai has better fighter pilots and singapore airforce pilots have better pilots they have best equipment but when they get against USAF,israelis,pakistanis they crummmble anyway do you have any history about indian airforce shot down any fighter jet after pakistani war none sorry u better get knowladge paf had got more kills than your uncle sam if paf never been regarded one of the best USA evey year turkey wont ask pakistan airforce to participate in exercises antolian eagle, red flag etc india in last 5 years got these exercise red flag pakistan is doing it since last 10 years or more and in exercise every airforce wants their opponent to be tough so they train their pilots at limmits and i think you also forgotten famous israeli pilots comments about paf who after war become israeli air chief that thank GOD that syrians and egyptians dont have fighter pilots caliber of paf

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## Super Falcon

ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Pakistan Air Force has alleged that the Indian Unmanned Air Vehicle, shot down by Pakistan fighter jets two days ago inside Pakistan territory, was an Israeli 'spy' plane launched and operated by Israelis from India. 
The 'spy' plane was being operated by Israelis and had manufacturing signatures of Israel Aircraft Industries, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshall Mushaff Ali Mir told reporters at an airbase near here at a special briefing on Monday. 
He said the 'spy' plane did not have any Indian markings. 
"It was an Israeli UAV. The Israeli operatives were using it for India," he alleged adding "this proved that Israel was directly helping India in seeking sensitive information about Pakistan through such UAVs". 
Air chief Marshal Mir said spying was a normal practice during wartime and PAF was fully vigilant to prevent it. 
Other PAF officials present at the briefing said an F-16 fighter jet shot the UAV at 13,000 feet, adding the plane was spotted by the mobile observation units when it crossed into Pakistani territory and was immediately gunned down even before it began reconnaissance of Pakistan's artillery positions in Punjab sector. 



Shame on all those Indians who talk without knowledge. Please ask Abul Kalam if you don't believe me. Even today, significant amount of spares for Indian missiles are imported. Even the much talked about LCA (Light Combat Aircraft), engines are imported. India up to yesterday was having only Fiat & Ambassador cars - Is not that true? Look at the fleet of MIG fighter planes - India has lost more than what a country would lose in war - reason? No spares and inability to repair! What are Indians boasting wants their hatred and atrocities over Israel to expand over to India also.

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## Super Falcon

Sqn Ldr Alam was the Commanding Officer of No.11 PAF Squadron flying Sabres during the 65 Conflict. Most certainly the top scoring pilot of that particular War, Alam had notched up Four Confirmed Hunters and One Probable Hunter Kill during several encounters with the Indian Air Force. Undoubtedly an Experienced and skilled pilot, all his victims were Hunter fighters and by a coincidence, all the Hunters though shot down in different occasions belonged to the same Squadron. No.7 IAF "Battle Axes". Alam shot down his first Hunter on Sep 6th, 1965 in a raid on the Indian Air Field at Adampur. Intercepted by Four Hunters of the IAF, Alam got onto the tail of Sqn Ldr A K "Peter" Rawlley. Rawlley lost control of the aircraft trying to evade Alam and struck the ground and got killed. The very next day, Alam bought down two Hunters which were exiting from a raid on Sargodha. Both the Pilots, Sqn Ldr Bhagwat and Fg Off J S Brar were killed. Alam scored again in the war on Sep 16th, while leading a raid on the airfield at Halwara. Alam bought down Fg Off Farokh Bunsha's Hunter although losing his wingman to another Hunter in the process.
Alam's feat of being the top scorer of the conflict is however marred by his inaccurate claims. At the end of the war, he had put in claims for Nine Hunters shot down whereas Indian Records do not support it. and this was made worse by the wartime propaganda efforts. In reality Alam has Four Confirmed kills. there is a dispute about another Hunter loss, Sqn Ldr O N Kacker who ejected in Pakistan on Sep 7th, is credited to Alam, by the PAF. The Indian Air Force says otherwise, Kacker was lost miles away from the area where Alam claimed his kill. The debate rages on. If Alam did shoot Kacker down, then He can rightfully claim to be the first Jet Ace from the Subcontinent.

In the final reckoning, there is no doubt that Alam remains the top scoring pilot of the Pakistan Air Force in its wars against India. Alam did not fly in the 71 Conflict.


storm force here is a crushing answer for your comments wait more on pending

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## Super Falcon

Rafiqui opened up the Air War in 1965 when he led a two Sabre Formation that intercepted a formation of Four Vampires from the composite No.45/220 Indian Air Force Squadron. Rafique shot down two Vampires flown by Sqn Ldr A K Bhagwagar and Bharadwaj and while his Wingman shot down another flown by Flt Lt V M Joshi. A lone aircraft from the this ill-fated Vampire formation flown by Fg Off Sodhi made it back to the base.
Rafiquis third kill came on Sept 6th, when he led a raid on the Halwara airbase. He jumped the Hunter CAP at Halwara and shot down Fg Off P S Pingale, who ejected soon after his aircraft got hit. But Rafiqui himself became a victim soon after , he failed to see that Pingale's wingman had worked back onto his tail and attacked him . Fg Off A R Gandhi managed to damage Rafiqui's aircraft. In the last desperate throes of his doomed Sabre, Rafiqui tried to eject, but his aircraft hit the ground before he could do so.

He was awarded the Sitara E Juraat for Bravery and the Hilaal E Juraat for Leadership.

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## Super Falcon

Saiful Azam is a not heard of much in aircombat. Azam has the unique distinction of having kills against airforces of two different countries. as a young flying officer during the 65 Conflict, Saiful Azam managed to shoot down an IAF Gnat on Sept 18th, a rarity as such the Gnat was seldom lost in Aircombat. his victim Fg Off V Mayadev ejected to become a POW.
Azam participated two years later in the Arab Israeli conflict of June 1967. deputed to the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror. Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by Capt Golan, who ejected. . Azam had earlier bought down a Super Mystere the previous day over Jordan. Azam , being a Bengali did not fly in the 71 conflict.

In the final reckoning Azam ties up with Alam in terms of kills, but his tally has a range of kills including the enviable credit of a Mach 2 Mirage III Fighter.

Confirmed Kills : 4 



.

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## Super Falcon

Pakistani Air Force has won every encounter against the Indian Air Force
HeavyMetal 3/13/2005 3:42:30 AM

Indian resources have naturally refuted and denied PAF air superiority over the FIVE times larger IAF in the 65 and 71 wars. Indian and Pakistani claims and counter claims are pointless on this subject as they tend to be biased and blurred with nationalism. The only way to assess this is through the neutral and qualified international opinion, which has now become aviation history. Check out autobiography of Gen. Chuck Yeagers (yes, the one who broke the sound barrier), who 'refereed' the 1971 war and flew up and down the region collecting wreckage of IAF aircraft shot down by the PAF. Here is what he says, "the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio knocking out 102 Indian jets and losing 34 of their own. I am certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks, documented them by serial numbers, identified the components such as engines and rocket pods" Now he is not exactly a Pakistani, is he? 

Check out the following world reputed aviation journals. 

USA - Aviation week & space technology - December 1968 issue. 
"For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel. 

UK - Air International - November - 1991 
" the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. As to those who are rated above average, they compare favourably to the very best " 

Encyclopaedia of Aircraft printed in several countries by Orbis publications - Volume 5 

"Pakistan's air force gained a remarkable victory over India in this brief 22 day war exploiting its opponents weaknesses in exemplary style - Deeply shaken by reverse, India began an extensive modernisation and training program, meanwhile covering its defeat with effective propaganda smoke screen. 

If you feel more at ease with German and French, then also checkout the followings 
Air Action (France) December 1988 and January 1989 
Flugzeug (Germany) February (2) 1989 

In addition to this, PAF put on show for inspection, its entire fleets after BOTH of the wars in presence of world dignitaries and aviation community. The five times bigger IAF should have annihilated the tiny PAF to prevent such displays!!!!!! 
Now these are FACTS - what rides on a wave of nationalism is just fiction

---------- Post added at 07:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 AM ----------

Well this is a shocking article I read. We all know that PAF pilots had an amazing kill ratio when they were going against Israeli pilots. something like 12 kills to zero. Until now everyone was thinking this was due to superior training, high morale and better reflexes and to an extent that is true but we still don't understand why the Arab pilots did so badly. We know they did badly because of the surprise factor and because they were not trained as well as the Israelis but if this story is true then it explains how some sneaky deception by the Mossad helped Israel to victory.

Bear in mind while it is hard to spray enemy territory without being detected it is not so hard to spike drinks and air vents with LSD-25 gas or something similar if you have an intelligence operative nearby or if the Mossad had the enough moles within Arab military structures. 

And it raises another question, has India ever used this technique on Pakistan in some of the battles where they seemingly won without explanation? Would RAW have learned of this and then infiltrated living quarters of PAF personel so they could be LSD gassed just before a sneak attack

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## Super Falcon

Gp Capt KAISER TUFAIL writes a fascinating account of PAF's effective but little known role in defence of Arab skies

Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a gruelling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF Fokker, they were whisked off to Damascus in a Syrian jet. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a ceasefire; it was, therefore, decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria, it was another story.
The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 Squadron, 'Alpha' Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr.

Syria had not agreed to a ceasefire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation using the callsign 'Shahbaz' was formidable in size - all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn't be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few Khalsas for the job!

After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the airshafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the 'qehva' session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to Base - this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 6 km. The limited fuel of their early model MiG-21F permitted just a 30 minutes sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys (unidentified aircraft) were approaching from the southerly direction ie Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the 'takka tak' at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?

Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-IIICJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (It takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within a few seconds the second Mirage filled his gunsight, the Star of David and all. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K-13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn't as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter 'J' in Mirage-IIICJ stood for 'Jewish', it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit. Diving down with careless abandon, he allowed a couple of sonic bangs over Damascus. (Word has it that the Presidential Palace wasn't amused!) His fuel tanks bone dry, Sattar made it to Dumayr on the vapours that remained.

As the other formation members started to trickle in, the leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor anxiously called out for Sattar to check if he was safe. All had thought that Sattar, a bit of a maverick that he was, had landed himself in trouble. Shouts of joy went up on the radio, however, when they learnt that he had been busy shooting down a Mirage.

The Syrians were overwhelmed when they learnt that the impunity and daring of the Pakistani pilots had paid off. Sattar was declared a blood brother by the Syrians, for he had shared in shedding the blood of a common enemy, they explained!

Sattar's victim Captain M Lutz of No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor, ejected out of his disintegrating aircraft. It has been learnt that the Mirages were on a reconnaissance mission, escorted by Phantoms of No 1 Air Wing operating out of Ramat David Air Base. The Phantoms were to trap any interceptors while the Mirages carried out the recce. Timely warning by the radar controller (also from the PAF) had turned the tables on the escorts, allowing Sattar to sort out the Mirages.

The dogfight over Golan is testimony to the skills of all PAF pilots, insists Sattar, as he thinks any one could have got the kill had he been 'Shahbaz-8' on that fateful day. Sattar and his leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor, were awarded two of Syria's highest decorations for gallantry, the Wisaam Faris and Wisaam Shuja'at. The Government of Pakistan awarded them a Sitara-e-Jurat each. Sattar, an epitome of a fighter pilot, befittingly went on to command PAF's elite Combat Commanders' School and the premier PAF Base, Rafiqui. He retired recently as an Air Commodore.
SHAHBAZ OVER GOLAN

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## umair86

Just wait for the Red flag and you will find out how PAF is trained and how professional they are than the Flying army of Hanuman (IAF). last we heard that IAF at red flag were shooting down their own jets in simulated fights.


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## k7x

umair86 said:


> Just wait for the Red flag and you will find out how PAF is trained and how professional they are than the Flying army of Hanuman (IAF). last we heard that IAF at red flag were shooting down their own jets in simulated fights.



dont live in Past...today things are not the same like past ,

it is easy to be defensive... but trying offensive is not that easy. if all the kills that you mentioned are in deep inside Indian skys then they are really good. but if it is in your sky they are not that much great.. 

First of all you have have guts to enter into others territory knowing that you might not return( Not just surprise attack, try crossing all the defenses and engage the enemy). and second you should enter deep again and again (not just one surprise attack). If any of this is achieved then you can really be proud..

but PAF gave a strong defense and painful resistance to IAF that even IAF wont deny. How ever that doesn't mean IAF is poor. If PAF has tried to bomb delhi after the was has started ( not just surprise attack) then it would have faced the same resistance from IAF.

How many offensive sorties were carried out after first initial surprise attack and how many kills did PAF achieved within indian airspace . not on ground...


In defensive role you can have lot of surprise and you know your area like lines in your palm.but being offensive in your enemys airspace ,you will see lot of surprise. Surprise is the biggest weapon in air fight , even now it is, as time changed it has also changed its form.


Thanks for brining Hunuman, as per Hindu Mythology he is the most powerful, son of god Air... well it would be blessing for us to get airpower like him.

Let us be Hunumans airforce , I consider that as privilege


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## Luftwaffe

Although PAF is a defensive Air Force in general but PAF does have offensive capability of which one is ALCM that gives Pakistan the offensive weapon of choice..

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## Nishan_101

Imran Khan said:


> bro this time in 2010 mirage2000 is not on any country wish list . its now v.old . and production lines are closed in france. there is no new mirage2000 is in world. we need some thing like j-10 refale eu fighter and then we have to go in 5th gen fighter not to waste money on 30 years old jet.



Hey read my post again and then repli . I have said that if PAC has taken licence production of Mirage-2000s in 1986 in order to produce 200-250 jets and completing in 2000-2002, then it would be great for PAF now. and they could easily serve for about 35 years in our PAF. So in this way there might be no more Mirage-2000s in IAF and we would have gain BVR as well as Precision strike capbility by inducting those Mirages. These jets could be used in kargil conflit in a very effective way.
We could have reduced its induction and operating cost, by manufacturing 50% of airframe,engine and about 80% avionics components in PAC.


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## mourning sage

Super Falcon said:


> ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Pakistan Air Force has alleged that the Indian Unmanned Air Vehicle, shot down by Pakistan fighter jets two days ago inside Pakistan territory, was an Israeli 'spy' plane launched and operated by Israelis from India.
> The 'spy' plane was being operated by Israelis and had manufacturing signatures of Israel Aircraft Industries, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshall Mushaff Ali Mir told reporters at an airbase near here at a special briefing on Monday.
> He said the 'spy' plane did not have any Indian markings.
> "It was an Israeli UAV. The Israeli operatives were using it for India," he alleged adding "this proved that Israel was directly helping India in seeking sensitive information about Pakistan through such UAVs".
> Air chief Marshal Mir said spying was a normal practice during wartime and PAF was fully vigilant to prevent it.
> Other PAF officials present at the briefing said an F-16 fighter jet shot the UAV at 13,000 feet, adding the plane was spotted by the mobile observation units when it crossed into Pakistani territory and was immediately gunned down even before it began reconnaissance of Pakistan's artillery positions in Punjab sector.
> 
> 
> 
> Shame on all those Indians who talk without knowledge. Please ask Abul Kalam if you don't believe me. Even today, significant amount of spares for Indian missiles are imported. Even the much talked about LCA (Light Combat Aircraft), engines are imported. India up to yesterday was having only Fiat & Ambassador cars - Is not that true? Look at the fleet of MIG fighter planes - India has lost more than what a country would lose in war - reason? No spares and inability to repair! What are Indians boasting wants their hatred and atrocities over Israel to expand over to India also.



i also told Storm Force the same thing about paf shooting down an indian uav but i think he does not understand it.


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## hataf

Super Falcon said:


> storm force tell you one thing in that israqel war pakistan at the end of war sended the pilots when israelis have edge over syrians than syrians requested for help we only sended few and all of them got in one piece and who ever got in their way in last days of war got only ashes and few only got away and pilots skills will not come with money if money can buy skills than world's richest brunai has better fighter pilots and singapore airforce pilots have better pilots they have best equipment but when they get against USAF,israelis,pakistanis they crummmble anyway do you have any history about indian airforce shot down any fighter jet after pakistani war none sorry u better get knowladge paf had got more kills than your uncle sam if paf never been regarded one of the best USA evey year turkey wont ask pakistan airforce to participate in exercises antolian eagle, red flag etc india in last 5 years got these exercise red flag pakistan is doing it since last 10 years or more and in exercise every airforce wants their opponent to be tough so they train their pilots at limmits and i think you also forgotten famous israeli pilots comments about paf who after war become israeli air chief that thank GOD that syrians and egyptians dont have fighter pilots caliber of paf





Super Falcon said:


> ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Pakistan Air Force has alleged that the Indian Unmanned Air Vehicle, shot down by Pakistan fighter jets two days ago inside Pakistan territory, was an Israeli 'spy' plane launched and operated by Israelis from India.
> The 'spy' plane was being operated by Israelis and had manufacturing signatures of Israel Aircraft Industries, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshall Mushaff Ali Mir told reporters at an airbase near here at a special briefing on Monday.
> He said the 'spy' plane did not have any Indian markings.
> "It was an Israeli UAV. The Israeli operatives were using it for India," he alleged adding "this proved that Israel was directly helping India in seeking sensitive information about Pakistan through such UAVs".
> Air chief Marshal Mir said spying was a normal practice during wartime and PAF was fully vigilant to prevent it.
> Other PAF officials present at the briefing said an F-16 fighter jet shot the UAV at 13,000 feet, adding the plane was spotted by the mobile observation units when it crossed into Pakistani territory and was immediately gunned down even before it began reconnaissance of Pakistan's artillery positions in Punjab sector.
> 
> 
> 
> Shame on all those Indians who talk without knowledge. Please ask Abul Kalam if you don't believe me. Even today, significant amount of spares for Indian missiles are imported. Even the much talked about LCA (Light Combat Aircraft), engines are imported. India up to yesterday was having only Fiat & Ambassador cars - Is not that true? Look at the fleet of MIG fighter planes - India has lost more than what a country would lose in war - reason? No spares and inability to repair! What are Indians boasting wants their hatred and atrocities over Israel to expand over to India also.





Super Falcon said:


> Sqn Ldr Alam was the Commanding Officer of No.11 PAF Squadron flying Sabres during the 65 Conflict. Most certainly the top scoring pilot of that particular War, Alam had notched up Four Confirmed Hunters and One Probable Hunter Kill during several encounters with the Indian Air Force. Undoubtedly an Experienced and skilled pilot, all his victims were Hunter fighters and by a coincidence, all the Hunters though shot down in different occasions belonged to the same Squadron. No.7 IAF "Battle Axes". Alam shot down his first Hunter on Sep 6th, 1965 in a raid on the Indian Air Field at Adampur. Intercepted by Four Hunters of the IAF, Alam got onto the tail of Sqn Ldr A K "Peter" Rawlley. Rawlley lost control of the aircraft trying to evade Alam and struck the ground and got killed. The very next day, Alam bought down two Hunters which were exiting from a raid on Sargodha. Both the Pilots, Sqn Ldr Bhagwat and Fg Off J S Brar were killed. Alam scored again in the war on Sep 16th, while leading a raid on the airfield at Halwara. Alam bought down Fg Off Farokh Bunsha's Hunter although losing his wingman to another Hunter in the process.
> Alam's feat of being the top scorer of the conflict is however marred by his inaccurate claims. At the end of the war, he had put in claims for Nine Hunters shot down whereas Indian Records do not support it. and this was made worse by the wartime propaganda efforts. In reality Alam has Four Confirmed kills. there is a dispute about another Hunter loss, Sqn Ldr O N Kacker who ejected in Pakistan on Sep 7th, is credited to Alam, by the PAF. The Indian Air Force says otherwise, Kacker was lost miles away from the area where Alam claimed his kill. The debate rages on. If Alam did shoot Kacker down, then He can rightfully claim to be the first Jet Ace from the Subcontinent.
> 
> In the final reckoning, there is no doubt that Alam remains the top scoring pilot of the Pakistan Air Force in its wars against India. Alam did not fly in the 71 Conflict.
> 
> 
> storm force here is a crushing answer for your comments wait more on pending





Super Falcon said:


> Rafiqui opened up the Air War in 1965 when he led a two Sabre Formation that intercepted a formation of Four Vampires from the composite No.45/220 Indian Air Force Squadron. Rafique shot down two Vampires flown by Sqn Ldr A K Bhagwagar and Bharadwaj and while his Wingman shot down another flown by Flt Lt V M Joshi. A lone aircraft from the this ill-fated Vampire formation flown by Fg Off Sodhi made it back to the base.
> Rafiquis third kill came on Sept 6th, when he led a raid on the Halwara airbase. He jumped the Hunter CAP at Halwara and shot down Fg Off P S Pingale, who ejected soon after his aircraft got hit. But Rafiqui himself became a victim soon after , he failed to see that Pingale's wingman had worked back onto his tail and attacked him . Fg Off A R Gandhi managed to damage Rafiqui's aircraft. In the last desperate throes of his doomed Sabre, Rafiqui tried to eject, but his aircraft hit the ground before he could do so.
> 
> He was awarded the Sitara E Juraat for Bravery and the Hilaal E Juraat for Leadership.





Super Falcon said:


> Saiful Azam is a not heard of much in aircombat. Azam has the unique distinction of having kills against airforces of two different countries. as a young flying officer during the 65 Conflict, Saiful Azam managed to shoot down an IAF Gnat on Sept 18th, a rarity as such the Gnat was seldom lost in Aircombat. his victim Fg Off V Mayadev ejected to become a POW.
> Azam participated two years later in the Arab Israeli conflict of June 1967. deputed to the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror. Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by Capt Golan, who ejected. . Azam had earlier bought down a Super Mystere the previous day over Jordan. Azam , being a Bengali did not fly in the 71 conflict.
> 
> In the final reckoning Azam ties up with Alam in terms of kills, but his tally has a range of kills including the enviable credit of a Mach 2 Mirage III Fighter.
> 
> Confirmed Kills : 4
> 
> 
> 
> .





Super Falcon said:


> Pakistani Air Force has won every encounter against the Indian Air Force
> HeavyMetal 3/13/2005 3:42:30 AM
> 
> Indian resources have naturally refuted and denied PAF air superiority over the FIVE times larger IAF in the 65 and 71 wars. Indian and Pakistani claims and counter claims are pointless on this subject as they tend to be biased and blurred with nationalism. The only way to assess this is through the neutral and qualified international opinion, which has now become aviation history. Check out autobiography of Gen. Chuck Yeagers (yes, the one who broke the sound barrier), who 'refereed' the 1971 war and flew up and down the region collecting wreckage of IAF aircraft shot down by the PAF. Here is what he says, "the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio knocking out 102 Indian jets and losing 34 of their own. I am certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks, documented them by serial numbers, identified the components such as engines and rocket pods" Now he is not exactly a Pakistani, is he?
> 
> Check out the following world reputed aviation journals.
> 
> USA - Aviation week & space technology - December 1968 issue.
> "For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.
> 
> UK - Air International - November - 1991
> " the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. As to those who are rated above average, they compare favourably to the very best "
> 
> Encyclopaedia of Aircraft printed in several countries by Orbis publications - Volume 5
> 
> "Pakistan's air force gained a remarkable victory over India in this brief 22 day war exploiting its opponents weaknesses in exemplary style - Deeply shaken by reverse, India began an extensive modernisation and training program, meanwhile covering its defeat with effective propaganda smoke screen.
> 
> If you feel more at ease with German and French, then also checkout the followings
> Air Action (France) December 1988 and January 1989
> Flugzeug (Germany) February (2) 1989
> 
> In addition to this, PAF put on show for inspection, its entire fleets after BOTH of the wars in presence of world dignitaries and aviation community. The five times bigger IAF should have annihilated the tiny PAF to prevent such displays!!!!!!
> Now these are FACTS - what rides on a wave of nationalism is just fiction
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 AM ----------
> 
> Well this is a shocking article I read. We all know that PAF pilots had an amazing kill ratio when they were going against Israeli pilots. something like 12 kills to zero. Until now everyone was thinking this was due to superior training, high morale and better reflexes and to an extent that is true but we still don't understand why the Arab pilots did so badly. We know they did badly because of the surprise factor and because they were not trained as well as the Israelis but if this story is true then it explains how some sneaky deception by the Mossad helped Israel to victory.
> 
> Bear in mind while it is hard to spray enemy territory without being detected it is not so hard to spike drinks and air vents with LSD-25 gas or something similar if you have an intelligence operative nearby or if the Mossad had the enough moles within Arab military structures.
> 
> And it raises another question, has India ever used this technique on Pakistan in some of the battles where they seemingly won without explanation? Would RAW have learned of this and then infiltrated living quarters of PAF personel so they could be LSD gassed just before a sneak attack





Super Falcon said:


> Gp Capt KAISER TUFAIL writes a fascinating account of PAF's effective but little known role in defence of Arab skies
> 
> Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a gruelling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF Fokker, they were whisked off to Damascus in a Syrian jet. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a ceasefire; it was, therefore, decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria, it was another story.
> The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 Squadron, 'Alpha' Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr.
> 
> Syria had not agreed to a ceasefire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation using the callsign 'Shahbaz' was formidable in size - all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn't be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few Khalsas for the job!
> 
> After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the airshafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the 'qehva' session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to Base - this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 6 km. The limited fuel of their early model MiG-21F permitted just a 30 minutes sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys (unidentified aircraft) were approaching from the southerly direction ie Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the 'takka tak' at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?
> 
> Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-IIICJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (It takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within a few seconds the second Mirage filled his gunsight, the Star of David and all. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K-13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn't as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter 'J' in Mirage-IIICJ stood for 'Jewish', it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit. Diving down with careless abandon, he allowed a couple of sonic bangs over Damascus. (Word has it that the Presidential Palace wasn't amused!) His fuel tanks bone dry, Sattar made it to Dumayr on the vapours that remained.
> 
> As the other formation members started to trickle in, the leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor anxiously called out for Sattar to check if he was safe. All had thought that Sattar, a bit of a maverick that he was, had landed himself in trouble. Shouts of joy went up on the radio, however, when they learnt that he had been busy shooting down a Mirage.
> 
> The Syrians were overwhelmed when they learnt that the impunity and daring of the Pakistani pilots had paid off. Sattar was declared a blood brother by the Syrians, for he had shared in shedding the blood of a common enemy, they explained!
> 
> Sattar's victim Captain M Lutz of No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor, ejected out of his disintegrating aircraft. It has been learnt that the Mirages were on a reconnaissance mission, escorted by Phantoms of No 1 Air Wing operating out of Ramat David Air Base. The Phantoms were to trap any interceptors while the Mirages carried out the recce. Timely warning by the radar controller (also from the PAF) had turned the tables on the escorts, allowing Sattar to sort out the Mirages.
> 
> The dogfight over Golan is testimony to the skills of all PAF pilots, insists Sattar, as he thinks any one could have got the kill had he been 'Shahbaz-8' on that fateful day. Sattar and his leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor, were awarded two of Syria's highest decorations for gallantry, the Wisaam Faris and Wisaam Shuja'at. The Government of Pakistan awarded them a Sitara-e-Jurat each. Sattar, an epitome of a fighter pilot, befittingly went on to command PAF's elite Combat Commanders' School and the premier PAF Base, Rafiqui. He retired recently as an Air Commodore.
> SHAHBAZ OVER GOLAN



million of thanks for all bro

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## mourning sage

k7x said:


> dont live in Past...today things are not the same like past ,
> 
> it is easy to be defensive... but trying offensive is not that easy. if all the kills that you mentioned are in deep inside Indian skys then they are really good. but if it is in your sky they are not that much great..
> 
> First of all you have have guts to enter into others territory knowing that you might not return( Not just surprise attack, try crossing all the defenses and engage the enemy). and second you should enter deep again and again (not just one surprise attack). If any of this is achieved then you can really be proud..
> 
> but PAF gave a strong defense and painful resistance to IAF that even IAF wont deny. How ever that doesn't mean IAF is poor. If PAF has tried to bomb delhi after the was has started ( not just surprise attack) then it would have faced the same resistance from IAF.
> 
> How many offensive sorties were carried out after first initial surprise attack and how many kills did PAF achieved within indian airspace . not on ground...
> 
> 
> In defensive role you can have lot of surprise and you know your area like lines in your palm.but being offensive in your enemys airspace ,you will see lot of surprise. Surprise is the biggest weapon in air fight , even now it is, as time changed it has also changed its form.
> 
> 
> Thanks for brining Hunuman, as per Hindu Mythology he is the most powerful, son of god Air... well it would be blessing for us to get airpower like him.
> 
> Let us be Hunumans airforce , I consider that as privilege


Pakistan's strategy is always to protect and defend itseld from enemies like india. PAF just has to deny air superiority to iaf. 
apart from that, and as far as my memory goes paf jets did storm into and destroyed iaf bases.

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## ARIZ ZAFAR

Since childhood i have learnt that PAF destroyed IAF.but got no real proof's.i know my own people will jump on me,but the fact is fact.we still lost 65,71.do we need to do some type of scrutiny over here?

Even MM.Alam's claim is debunked by his own squadron member.i have seen the list of fighter pilot he killed.when i went through neutral sources i was surprised to see his claims were rather false.i didn't even consider the iaf souces(they too write lot of crap).but if he really had gunned down 5 aircrafts then why would his own mate will go against him.in 65 many people keep on saying we had air superiority over iaf,then why couldn't we change the course of war.our army and air force fought bravely but we were not able to beat our no.1 enemy.why??

The thing is just by shooting down some air crafts can not rate us one of the world's best.we would have been the best if our air force could have manged to change the out come of the war.and i am sorry to say that didn't happen..yes they had given their 100% but we failed and that's the sad part.

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## ice_man

swati said:


> Kafir hai Toa karta hai Shamsheer per bharosa; Momin hai to Bai Taigh bhi larrta hai sipahi.
> 
> 
> i am sure our boys can handle any pressure when put to the test.......



BILKOUL next time you get sick DON'T go to the doctor!!!


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## bilal1219

ARIZ ZAFAR said:


> Since childhood i have learnt that PAF destroyed IAF.but got no real proof's.i know my own people will jump on me,but the fact is fact.we still lost 65,71.do we need to do some type of scrutiny over here?
> 
> Even MM.Alam's claim is debunked by his own squadron member.i have seen the list of fighter pilot he killed.when i went through neutral sources i was surprised to see his claims were rather false.i didn't even consider the iaf souces(they too write lot of crap).but if he really had gunned down 5 aircrafts then why would his own mate will go against him.in 65 many people keep on saying we had air superiority over iaf,then why couldn't we change the course of war.our army and air force fought bravely but we were not able to beat our no.1 enemy.why??
> 
> The thing is just by shooting down some air crafts can not rate us one of the world's best.we would have been the best if our air force could have manged to change the out come of the war.and i am sorry to say that didn't happen..yes they had given their 100% but we failed and that's the sad part.



BINGO!!!!!. I Agree with you.. even i have been told the exact info but yes we did loose 65 71 war. Its the Truth which some of us like to deny.

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## anathema

ARIZ ZAFAR said:


> Since childhood i have learnt that PAF destroyed IAF.but got no real proof's.i know my own people will jump on me,but the fact is fact.we still lost 65,71.do we need to do some type of scrutiny over here?
> 
> Even MM.Alam's claim is debunked by his own squadron member.i have seen the list of fighter pilot he killed.when i went through neutral sources i was surprised to see his claims were rather false.i didn't even consider the iaf souces(they too write lot of crap).but if he really had gunned down 5 aircrafts then why would his own mate will go against him.in 65 many people keep on saying we had air superiority over iaf,then why couldn't we change the course of war.our army and air force fought bravely but we were not able to beat our no.1 enemy.why??
> 
> The thing is just by shooting down some air crafts can not rate us one of the world's best.we would have been the best if our air force could have manged to change the out come of the war.and i am sorry to say that didn't happen..yes they had given their 100% but we failed and that's the sad part.



Ariz and Bilal -- It takes lot of guts and self conviction to go against the Tide. *..for that you have my respect !!*

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## mourning sage

indian air force was 5 times more than that of paf and still is. shooting down a few jets would certainly not change the course of war. the 65 war was not a defeat for Pakistan though the western media claims it was. pak was had captured more indian territory than india had ours.
n yeah the indians went to ussr to save them. it was regarded as a defeat coz our president Ayub khan agreed to cease fire and withdraw from battle even though we were in much better condition.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What matters the most is that our brave soliders and fighters and navy stood strong in 65 we had limited resources but we stood strong for what was right. 

65 it was a victory for our forces for successfully defending our nation 

In 71 , sure there was pain but that came due to sanctions we had at that time on our airforce - India detonated a nuclear weapon in 74 , and hid behind that probbly it was a nuclear weapon provided by Russia so no one would attack India 

In 71 , we were embargoed after 65 , and thus our planes were not updated with latest planes while Indian recieved better planes from Russia and also they had helicopters which played a vital role in Armed intervention against East Pakistan.

Since we did not had a strong navy in East Pakistan we could not open blockade vis sea routes 

"If it does not kills you it makes you stronger" and that has happened with us ... we have now become a nuclear force - thanks to sacrifices of our pilots and soliders 

What matters now is we update our Avionics , and Produce enough fighters planes for our needs and settle issues on table ideally


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## bilal1219

gohar321 said:


> indian air force was 5 times more than that of paf and still is. shooting down a few jets would certainly not change the course of war. the 65 war was not a defeat for Pakistan though the western media claims it was. pak was had captured more indian territory than india had ours.
> n yeah the indians went to ussr to save them. it was regarded as a defeat coz our president Ayub khan agreed to cease fire and withdraw from battle even though we were in much better condition.



Dude, The point is we still lost the war, No matter how much land we captured or saved..END OF STORY


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## ARIZ ZAFAR

gohar321 said:


> indian air force was 5 times more than that of paf and still is. shooting down a few jets would certainly not change the course of war. the 65 war was not a defeat for Pakistan though the western media claims it was. pak was had captured more indian territory than india had ours.
> n yeah the indians went to ussr to save them. it was regarded as a defeat coz our president Ayub khan agreed to cease fire and withdraw from battle even though we were in much better condition.



Bhai jaan if would have won the war fairly no body can point a finger and say we lost.even i used to think the same way.but after going through all the parts of the war if you see we lost it.we were the aggressor and we could not take kashmir.we had captured few parts but indians had more than what we had.so dont you think that's surprising.even PAF was a superior air force in terms of quality,and we had some greatest pilots world has ever seen.but the whole outcome was very different.it does not give me any pleasure to repeat it again but we have accept that we couldn't capitalize our aggression and lost the war.


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## Areesh

Please go through this thread for further details. Thanks.

Discuss Indo Pak air wars

And stick to the topic. Don't become Najam Sethi when it isn't needed.

Thank you.

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## owcc

Rather than chest thumping trying to claim that Pakistan actually won wars (which it never did) , it makes better sense to learn from your past mistakes rectify them and upgrde yur armed forces to that level so as to keep a strong defencive environment at your borders


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## IceCold

Storm Force said:


> Pakistan is currently looking at 200+ Thunders as the back bone of its air force.
> 
> These cost around £12-15m each.
> 
> The hitech fighters start at $60m each going up to over $100m each for F35 Typhpoon & rafael
> 
> ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY BUDGETS.
> 
> PAF has a fraction of the budgets of air forces like China India Saudi and Korea and Taiwan.
> 
> There lies the problem.
> 
> The answer is Thunder x 200 and slowly upgrade
> 
> small nos of J10/FC20
> 
> *F16 ON GRANT AID*.



The highlighted part and the one you wrote in caps speaks much about your ignorance on the subject matter. Get a life kid.

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## MastanKhan

swati said:


> Kafir hai Toa karta hai Shamsheer per bharosa; Momin hai to Bai Taigh bhi larrta hai sipahi.
> 
> 
> i am sure our boys can handle any pressure when put to the test.......




Kid,

Please grow out of this mentality---.

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## Areesh

IceCold said:


> The highlighted part and the one you wrote in caps speaks much about your ignorance on the subject matter. Get a life kid.



Can't they understand we are paying money for these aricrafts.


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## IceCold

Areesh said:


> Can't they understand we are paying money for these aricrafts.



They can. Its just that they don't want too because otherwise they wouldn't be able to troll around here.


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## bilal1219

IceCold said:


> They can. Its just that they don't want too because otherwise they wouldn't be able to troll around here.



I smell something burning.. LOL


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## mourning sage

awhether we won the war or not, India too was not able to take over kashmir and fulfill its ever living desire to erase pakistan.

back to topic guys, we have had enough discussions on it now.
by the way are paf's mirages better than iaf's?


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## ejaz007

Ariz and Bilal,

Can you quote independent source that says Pakistan lost 1965 war. 1971 is another matter which needs to be looked into deeply before giving verdict.

Also how old are you too?

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## mourning sage

ejaz007 said:


> Ariz and Bilal,
> 
> Can you quote independent source that says Pakistan lost 1965 war. 1971 is another matter which needs to be looked into deeply before giving verdict.
> 
> Also how old are you too?



exactly, i have also argued wid them over this matter but nothing they understand.

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## Tajdar adil

What are the capablities of the F 7pg and Mirages.


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## jagjitnatt

Tajdar adil said:


> What are the capablities of the F 7pg and Mirages.



At this moment, I don't think they have any capabilities when compared to modern aircraft. 

They are like Indian Mig-21s. Just waiting to be phased out. No good in today's world.

Mirages III, and Mirage V with F7s will never be able to take on the Mig29s, Mirage 2000s, Su30s etc. They only have a chance on the Mig 21s

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## SQ8

jagjitnatt said:


> At this moment, I don't think they have any capabilities when compared to modern aircraft.
> 
> They are like Indian Mig-21s. Just waiting to be phased out. No good in today's world.
> 
> Mirages III, and Mirage V with F7s will never be able to take on the Mig29s, Mirage 2000s, Su30s etc. They only have a chance on the Mig 21s



So in other words..the F-86 that took down the Mig-21.. should have had no chance?

The intangible factors have been ignored in that statement of yours.
Including what equipment capability will be used to for what?
How did the Mig-21's of India pose the maximum threat to the American F-15's in cope India..even those armed with AESA..?
It is how they were employed.

Technology is a massive factor.. yet none of the jets you mention are beyond touch of current status of the PAF mirage or F-7 fleet.
You seem to take your conclusion that both sides will have NOTHING supporting their equipment.. no GCI,no radar coverage..no picture..no intercept control..no tactics..nothing.

The Mig-25 should have been easy target for the F/A-18's in the Iraq war..the hornets had BVR weapons....AWACS coverage...yet
the iragi fighter managed a kill with 30 year old weapons.

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## Storm Force

Santro.

Your argument is correct only partially re PAF having GCI or OTHER factors playing a part in a indo pak war to make mirage3 or F7 useful against MIG29 or SU30MKI or Mirage2000.

The problem for PAF is that 350 of the current 400 PAF fighters are either F7 OR MIRAGE3/5.

In other words 80&#37; of the entire fleet 

In contrast 400 of india,s 600 fighters are BVR capable including 125 mig21 bison. = 65% of fleet.

In this scenario GENERALLY speaking PAF pilots will be seriously disadvantaged. 

" i APPRECIATE this is changing rapidley with 18 new F16 and Thunder induction"

But to replace 350 fighters ie MIRAGE3/5 & F7 will take 10 years minimum.


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## SQ8

True..
But what capabilities are those Fighters bringing?
Are you gauging them all as basic mig-21's?
Will the PAF send in its F-7's blind?
Are they going to duke it out..
Also.. to check your math on the numbers..
pakistan has about 140 F-7's..and a 160 mirages.. thats 300 out of a force of 400..450 combat jets.
Out of that.. 60 are F-7PG's..noted for their WVR prowess..HMS..and BVR IR capability.
Out of the mirages.. 60 or so of the Mirage III's are ROSE I..the rest are dual seaters.. ROSE I mirages are BVR capable(I wont use equipped as a similar useless debate just like the C4I thread will start up about known knowns and known unknowns).

The other side.. 50 or so of the Mirage 5 series are precision Day/night capable attack jets.. much like the M2K's.. 

The idea of no match makes sense if I say I want a F-7 to go against an MKI without any support.. no tactics.. over neutral territory.
But each piece of equipment in the PAF(and the IAF) has its supporting elements..designed to compensate for its deficiencies..and increase it impact in the combat zone.

Case in point.. again..the IAF mig-21's.. it wasnt just the Elta electronics..it was how it was flown by the pilots..embedded in the strike formation..hidden from interceptors..using its small frontal RCS to great effect.

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## Storm Force

Good points Santro.

To be fair to PAF they have used and trained with F7 & MIRAGE ROSE pl;anes for some considerable time. They will know how to utilise them to their max potential and to avoid being caught with their pants down.

BOTH SIDES i envisage would avoid big lossess in any air campaign because the loss of morale or face would too great to bear.


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## Storm Force

I thought the F7P nos are 120 & F7PG 55 PLANES = 175 in total.

335 of 400 = 77&#37; of fleet stil very large me thinks

but will change this decade ..


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## Mani2020

*@storm force
*
25 jf-17 per year as of now also there are efforts to increase this number suppose after 2010 we have 25 jf-17's and in 2011 the number increases to 30per year and same number for 2012 then 35 in 2013 same number in 2014 eventually 40 in 2015 so
in 5 year time i.e 2015 we will have 25 +30+30+35+35+40 = 195 jf-17's at the end of 2015 also fc-20 deliveries will start somewhere around 2014 so in 2015 we will have 36 fc-20's

195 jf-17's + 36 Fc-20 = 231 

i think that number will be enough to replace f-7 non PG's and non ROSE mirages and not to forget we are currently negotiating for more f-16's

post 2015 we will have jf-17's,fc-20's f-16's and f-7pg's

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## Storm Force

Mani2020.

Don,t take this the wrong way.

But your delivery schedules are wat to optimistic you have been listening to children posters on PDF for too long. 

I acknowledge that PAF will one day deploy 150+ Thunders i have no doubt in this at all. 

But hear me out. 

Firstly the current PAF plan is to induct 50 planes by 2012-2013 these are the 8 prototypes handed in 2008-2009 for ioc testing by china. Followed by 42 ordered upon ioc in March 2010. 

Beyond that the production nos and delivery dates are pure speculation. These are not GOP or PAF schedules any way beyond the first 50.. 

To be fair the PAF are far too professional and careful to simply order 195 planes until block 2 and 3 steady development as taken place. 

This development includes.

1. Induction and complete testing of SD10 BVR missle (this has not happened yet current 14 thunders are WVT PL9 missles only) 

2. New chinease engine stil being developed and tested on thunder as we speak.

3. Future AESA radar for both Thunders and FC20. stil in deveopment stage

Another very important point is that PAF are stil actively looking at F16 SECOND HAND fighters FROM EUROPE scarce funding maybe diverted to this project if F16/50 are sought from europe or elsewhere.

There is also the FC20 PROJECT BEYOND 2015 wat if the gap between FC20 is so big over Thunder that PAF choose more FC20 over fewer Thunders. 

FINALLY IF MMRCA goes to Typhoon or F18 S/H in india PAF MAY STIL choose other options as well.

The indo pak stand off is ever changing/ a moving goalpost. PAF does not enjoy the luxury of a $30 billion defense budget like india they have to take each step very carefully


AND I BELIEVE THIS IS WAT THEY ARE DOING ALREADY.


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## Manticore

there are rumours that 2 prototypes of jxx have been made----who knows , by 2020 we might be negotiating for 2 /3 squadrons jxx ---- 10 years a lot of time to turn around the economy

who knows, once chinese start making jxx , they delegate production line of j10b to us

who knows what the output be of the new aeronatical complex
Posts number 666


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## Storm Force

What is more likely.

50 Thunders @ $15n until 2013
50 Thunders mk2 @ $18m between 2013- 2016 (total order 100) 

44 F16 MLU already here
18 F18 BL52 now here
14 F16 52 2011-2012

36 FC20 2015-2017 @ $30M EACH. 

This wud give PAF ABOUT 200 MODERN FIGHTERS BY 2015-2016


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## SQ8

correction..
the option on those 14 jets has not been exercized yet..
also.. there are two more lines for the JF opening up..
the PAF is commited to the jet and its growth..
and any changes will be on the line as it goes..
no pause in production schedule.
so the optimistic target of a 150 jets by 2015 may not be too unrealistic at all.

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## mourning sage

what king of BVR's can be fired from the mirages, F-7pg, etc....etc?


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## foxhound

I was just wondering that in the light of the PAF allocated resources from the defence budget - is the PAF still embarking on a cost-effective strategy or is there room to be more effective with the limited resources at its disposal?

In view of the future trend that most air combat would be at beyond visual range (and a very low chance of actual 'dog fights' as in previous conflicts)....would it be better for the PAF to upgrade its 'old' or 2nd/3rd generation aircraft with BVR capability and support it with AWAC/AEW and electronic warfare aircraft?

My point is that since Radar is a primary means of offensive detection, but as an emission it is easily detectable by an adversary, which can usually gauge the degree of threat from the mode used, and take appropriate countermeasures - electronic or manoeuvre. For this reason, the most appropriate radar mode for many situations is standby, activating it the last possible moment.

There is an alternative, which I think looks very attractive. This is *remote targeting*, in which missile launch data is provided from off-board sources, such as other fighters, AWACS, or ground control. The air combat equivalent of the discovered check in chess, this allows surprise attacks to be made from unexpected quarters.

So in a nutshell....*A fighter using its radar to detect its prey at once reveals its presence, its position, and often its intent. The answer is remote targeting, in which ground radar and/ or AWACS provide target information via a secure data link. This allows missile launch without direct contact, and without the target being alerted.*
Would it be feasible for the PAF to upgrade (on cheap basis) its older aircraft (BVR capable) and cause a would be adversary some 'serious' problems in the event of a conflict?

I think the F7s and Mirages can be an effective detterence aircraft if it was BVR capable.....future air conflict is essentially on who is able to detect and fire their BVR missiles......thus, until new aircraft are available - this could be a better interim measure? I think with the AWACS and electronic Countermeasure aircrafts it could be effective?


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## Super Falcon

give them to navy


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## mourning sage

@foxhound
the upgraded mirages are BVR capable.
and soon the older aircrafts will be phased out by the jf-17s.


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## TOPGUN

What BVR missiles does the PAF carry ?


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## Windjammer

??? ?????? Pakistan Air Force F-7PG - Desi Video Network


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## Irfan Baloch

swati said:


> Kafir hai Toa karta hai Shamsheer per bharosa; Momin hai to Bai Taigh bhi larrta hai sipahi.
> 
> .......



as much I like this saying but this is outdated now..

there are time when a momin needs his sword and their combination is a deadly one for the enemies.


Walid bin Utbah
Marhab
and Umru bin Abduwad

the above famous champions found it the hard way when they met Ali ibn Abi Talib and his Zulfiqar during the battle of Badr, Khyber and Khandaq

in the current war in the technological context the generation gap has to be very small for any chance of a fight and reaction


when one can be out gunned out shot, out seen and out maneuvered then its a waste of a fine pilot sending him on a dated technology when the adversery is in a Mig-29 and later planes

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## Tajdar adil

Why PAF not upgrading his F7pg its new fghters delivered in 2002 from China.
i mean BVR capability radar etc.


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## jagjitnatt

Tajdar adil said:


> Why PAF not upgrading his F7pg its new fghters delivered in 2002 from China.
> i mean BVR capability radar etc.



The aircraft is designed in such a way that it has a small nose, hence a smaller radar. So it can not detect anything beyond 40 kms.

Even the Bisons are blind after 55 kms. Hence they are being replaced. There is no way to upgrade these aircraft. It is better you replace them all with JF17.


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## mourning sage

jagjitnatt said:


> The aircraft is designed in such a way that it has a small nose, hence a smaller radar. So it can not detect anything beyond 40 kms.
> 
> Even the Bisons are blind after 55 kms. Hence they are being replaced. There is no way to upgrade these aircraft. It is better you replace them all with JF17.


SANTRO did mention that they have their specific role.
replacing all of them requires $$ and time. with the limited budget paf is doing everything it can.


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## Tempest II

F-7 with JS-6 Glide Bomb: China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation - Precision Guided Bomb


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## illuminatidinesh

> well F 7 is still good interceptor against Mig 21 bis our pilots have bettter trainening than IAF pilots so what ever flaws F 7 has which i dont think so even if it has slight miss advantage it wont metter because trainning of pilot will come in account too


Well I doubt that, here is the reason why.
1) First they wont meet head on, chances are very low. Maybe ur F16 with our bison or our Jaguar / MKI by ur F7 and F16.
2) Even if they meet what good a pilot can do if he cant see the enemy(considering that F7 enters Indian airspace and bison scrambles).
3) Dont ignore the BVR capability of an enemy plane.
4) Again both planes are used for defensive role...


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## stongpa

F-7 PG is a very economical solution right now for PAF.

It is a greatly improved F-7, some say the best variant of Mig-21 ever.

Here is the impression of Air Cdr Kaiser Tufail after he evaluated F-7 PG

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info



> It was a most pleasant surprise to note that the turn rates were nearer to the F-16 at medium to high altitudes and, were exactly as advertised. A 33&#37; improvement over the F-7P at 5,000&#8217; AMSL, 50% at 10,000&#8217; and 66% at 20,000 would certainly call for an end to the &#8220;supersonic sports plane&#8221; sobriquet that dogged its forerunners.





> The thrust increase was evidenced by a 25% improvement in acceleration time from 500 kph to 1100 kph and an equally impressive time-to-climb to 36,000&#8217; AMSL. All improvements were verified and were found to be as advertised or even better. Even more remarkable was the fact that these trials took place in hot and humid weather, well outside the 15&#176;C, 1013 hP environments in which the specifications are usually engineered.





> Compared to the F-7P&#8217;s take-off speed of 310 kph, the MG lifted off at 280 kph with ease and the advertised 35% improvement in take-off distance was on the mark. The sight of the auto-manoeuvring flaps at work reminded the pilots of the F-16&#8217;s computer-controlled leading edge devices. Packaging the servo motors and actuators within the thin leading edge without the tell-tale bulges has certainly been a marvel of engineering at Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC).



Evaluation showed that with respect to F-7P, F-7PG had a
35% imporvement in take-off distance
33% improvement in turn rate at 5000 feet
50% improvement in in turn rate at 10000 feet
66% improvement in turn rate at 20000 feet.
At least 25-33% reduction in the safe speed required for low speed loop...likely to be even better at lower altitudes.
In fact turn rate at med to high altitudes is close to F-16.
Lower speeds required for landing.
Glide ratio of 1:8.5 compares favorably with some modern fighters
50% improvement in spool up time
25% improvement in time for acceleration (500Km/h to 1100Km/h) and climb speed.

This article seems to agree that F-7PG's close combat capability is very close to that of F-16. In chinese simulations, it has also beaten SU-27 in close combat

F-7PG uses Grifo-7PG RADAR which has a little more range than the Grifo 7, plus some other technological advancements.

The F-7PG is capable of firing :

AIM-9P
AIM-9L
PL-9C

PAF initially ordered 46 single seater and 9 trainers. They were so impressed with its capabilities that later they ordered another 11 single seaters



Imran Khan said:


> f-7pgs are same as MIG-21 dude even f-7 has new air frame then MIGs and do you check the record of nig-21 crash rate? our f-7s are main interceptors on all over Pakistan . abut mirages you know some thing what shape they got after rose upgrade? they can fire cruse missiles ans BVRs with air refueling they are working horses bro. you underestimate them because they are old then you have to know f-7s are newer then our our f-16 and mirages 50 which we got from Libya they was brand new. there is much much power in these air crafts. yes they have to be replace but mirage rose and f-7pg will never grab as you think.you know who much they are 400 jets.just think again.

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## ynmian

I came to know that F-7PG and earlier versions doesn't have a HUD.

I wonder there must be somethng overthere to at least AIM 

anyone got cockpit pics? I will appreciate that.

F-7W: First J-7 export model with a HUD. The smaller canopy and the small window behind it were replaced by a larger canopy so that the small window no longer existed on J-7 models from then on. The first customer was Jordan, but the aircraft did not enter Jordanian service, instead, the aircraft ended up in Iraqi hands. (source is wikipedia).


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## ynmian

I got my answer from here.

YouTube - The Uphill Task : Induction of F-16 and F-7P in PAF - Part 2

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## umair86pk

ynmian said:


> I came to know that F-7PG and earlier versions doesn't have a HUD.
> 
> I wonder there must be somethng overthere to at least AIM
> 
> anyone got cockpit pics? I will appreciate that.
> 
> F-7W: First J-7 export model with a HUD. The smaller canopy and the small window behind it were replaced by a larger canopy so that the small window no longer existed on J-7 models from then on. The first customer was Jordan, but the aircraft did not enter Jordanian service, instead, the aircraft ended up in Iraqi hands. (source is wikipedia).


PAF f-7s had HUD from the day one 1988


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## Mani2020




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## Stealth_fighter

A formation of Mirages fly low over the sea in search of targets as PNS Babur carries out coordination and control.

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## Mani2020

Though few months old but still worthy of posting.

*This is a pic of PAF celebrating during exercise in Jordan when PAF mirages won the target bombing competition in Jordan*


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## Mani2020

That was a big landmark achieved by PAF and Paf mirages specially when you see the other airforces who were competing and their aircrafts .the airforces competing were

1)USAF
2)PAF
3) Royal Jordan airforce
4)UAE airforce

And its amazing that PAF mirages won against *F-16 Block 60's and F-18 * ,and that itself shows the capability of our mirages and a answer to those who say mirages in PAF inventory are crap 

here is a pic


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## Mani2020

background


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## ynmian

umair86pk said:


> PAF f-7s had HUD from the day one 1988



well not form day one, i watch a PAF video in youtube, in which it is mentioned that HUD is now introduced in P7 to accommodate various weapons.


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## Dazzler

F-7p, MP models in PAF both designated as P, were upgraded F-7M airguard model developed by China which included MB mk-10 seat installation, GEC Macroni air data computer, new Heads Up Display (absent in previous models, later replaced by indigenous HUDWAC), TACAN, INS, four underwing pylons instead of two in previous models and 42 additional modifications requested by PAF. F-7 PG has additional 18 modifications in avionics, pilot comfort, navigation, ECM is highly effective in shape of GT-1 CFD, KG-8602 RWR, internal jammer supplemented by KG-300G ecm pod, Grifo-7MG pulse doppler radar with look down shoot down upto 40 kms and so on.


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## SQ8

And.. HMS.... and practice BVR tactics regularly..(although I suppose with the Grifo's range .. its barely BVR)..


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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore




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## Manticore




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## Manticore




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## Manticore

backseater taking a nap?


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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore

PakAF Mirage IIIEE







Pakistan Fiza'ya - Pakistan Air Force (PakAF) - Gallery / XAIRFORCES

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## Windjammer

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/38595-majestic-mirage.html


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## Manticore



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## Manticore

bandits

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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Sapper

houshanghai said:


>



*Off-Topic*
It says F7-PG on the tail, but from its wing, it is clearly not the PG's double delta configuration. Whats going on ???

Regards,
Sapper


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## SQ8

Sapper said:


> *Off-Topic*
> It says F7-PG on the tail, but from its wing, it is clearly not the PG's double delta configuration. Whats going on ???
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



That is the two seater FT-7PG.. while it has all the avionic refinements of the single seater.. it sticks to the old F-7 airframe.


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## fjavaid

Santro said:


> That is the two seater FT-7PG.. while it has all the avionic refinements of the single seater.. it sticks to the old F-7 airframe.


 
Seeing the picture it sure is not "Two Seater" .......


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## SQ8

fjavaid said:


> Seeing the picture it sure is not "Two Seater" .......



You may be right.. as what I thought to be a second pilot head looks like the instrument panel..at least from this angle.
There was the FT-7PG prototype which bore this camo..
So it is a quagmire.

There were three demonstrators..
two were evaluated by PAF pilots, one with a Chinese panel and the other english.
both were the cranked delta airframes.
I cant recall the serial number of the second but one was 142.


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## Windjammer

*Seems like an F-7P Test bed for the PG version*

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## hassan1

is there any pix of FT-7PG


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## fatman17

^can someone summerize in 'english' whats been written in 'french' - from the looks of it, sounds good!


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## untitled

If you search you will find pics of aircraft that have been long retired on this forum. Then why cant one post pics of aircraft that are still in active service


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## Donatello

Archie said:


> whats the point of Posting pics and sharing info on aircrafts which will be retired in next 5 yrs




Stop trolling. This is PDF, and members can post as many pictures of Military Aircraft, as they can.

If you don't want that, go to your Bharat Rakshak non-sense.

Post reported for trolling.

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## PWFI

fatman17 said:


> ^can someone summerize in 'english' whats been written in 'french' - from the looks of it, sounds good!



the title mean "4 victorys of pakistani mirages"

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## Irfan Baloch

Super Falcon said:


> well F 7 is still good interceptor against Mig 21 bis our pilots have bettter trainening than IAF pilots so what ever flaws F 7 has which i dont think so even if it has slight miss advantage it wont metter because trainning of pilot will come in account too



its a wishful thinking
IAF and PAF pilots belong to same region and mostly same race (no advantage there) there is no special training we get (what they dont) apart from some extra prayers maybe. but IAF budget is unlimited and has huge exposure to train with the top airforces and get the top end stuff whereas we are turned down by Europe and US for avionics etc. what good is a sole training going to do on the dated platforms which dont have top of the line equipment? bit unfair for exgagerated expectatins no?

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## DANGER-ZONE

*February 8, 2001:* _Pakistan - Air Force Shenyang FT-6 at Quetta - International (Samungli)_

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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> *February 8, 2001:* _Pakistan - Air Force Shenyang FT-6 at Quetta - International (Samungli)_



in recent images we seen they are still flying them as trainers


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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> in recent images we seen they are still flying them as trainers



The image is from 2001, the F-6 was retired in I believe 2002, it's FT-6 which may still be flying as a lead in supersonic trainer.


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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> The image is from 2001, the F-6 was retired in I believe 2002, it's FT-6 which may still be flying as a lead in supersonic trainer.



thats what i say sir they still use this damn old horse


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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> thats what i say sir they still use this damn old horse



My dear it's much newer than the FT-5 and some of the Mirage fleet besides it's the only twin engine jet fighter left in PAF inventory.

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## ziaulislam

dont think so they are going to be retired anytime soon. as there are no replacements coming for the supersonic trainer fighters..
k-8 being inducted are all subsonic. 
unless jf-17 twin seater are made and modified for training ?


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## Imran Khan

ft-7 can be used and more f-7s after getting out from active duty


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## acetophenol

Werent the fantans retired with a thread in def.pk?


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## Zabaniyah

acetophenol said:


> Werent the fantans retired with a thread in def.pk?



Yes, PAF retired them.


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## ziaulislam

Imran Khan said:


> ft-7 can be used and more f-7s after getting out from active duty


 so would we induct new ft-7 aircrafts.?
are u referring to modifying the f-7s to twin seater or would they be used in current form for training.?


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## Imran Khan

acetophenol said:


> Werent the fantans retired with a thread in def.pk?



so where they are flying ?


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## untitled

acetophenol said:


> Werent the fantans retired with a thread in def.pk?



The Fantans were the A-5 not the F-6s

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## fatman17

*F-7MP* is a further upgraded variant of F-7P with improved cockpit layout and navigation system. PAF ordered 60 F-7MPs during the late 80s, then later took delivery of another 80 aircraft. It was reported that subsequently all F-7Ps were upgraded to MP standard. Both F-7P and F-7MP are generally referred to as F-7P since the external difference is minimum. The most noticeable feature of F-7MP is the BM/KJ-8602 RWR antennas on top of the vertical tail. In the mid-90s PAF planned to replace the GEC-Marconi GMAv Skyranger ranging radar with the more powerful FIAR Grifo 7 multi-mode fire-control radar, but the work was postponed until early 2004 due to certain technical and financial difficulties. It was reported that Grifo-7 was later replaced by the further improved Grifo-MK-II which can track 4 targets simultaneously and engage 1. 
- Last Updated 3/7/11


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## Edevelop

What missiles are these?

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## DANGER-ZONE

cb4 said:


> What missiles are these?



Exocet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aim-9 N/P
AIM-9 Sidewinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

F-7PG and Mirage Rose are a Alternative Options 

The planes would be wonderful for City Patrol / and guarding Strategic Assets 
Together with proper Ground Defence SAM

By 2015
^^^^^^^^^^J10B (36)^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^F16C/D(36) ^^^^^^JF17 Thunder Block 2(150)
^^^^^F16 MLU (45)^^^^^ JF17 Thunder Block 1 (100 + (50 Chinese shipment))
^^^F-7 PG (190) ^^Mirage (190)^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^Trainer K-8 (20-30)^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Even the weakest of our fighters are equiped with Good Air-Air missiles and that makes our jets very lethal "BIRD"

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## Nishan_101

It would be much better for PAF to take license in mid 70s for production of Mirages like production of 110 Mirage IIIs with 30 Dual seat version of this one as multi role interceptor:









And another 110 for Production of Mirage Vs with 30 dual seat version of it as a multi role strike/naval strike platform:













---------- Post added at 10:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 AM ----------

Along with production of 150 F-6/FT-6 at PAC.

---------- Post added at 10:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 AM ----------

F-16 could act as a force multiplier for PAF

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## Edevelop




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## untitled

ANTIBODY said:


> backseater taking a nap?



No training for night missions hence the darkness in the student cockpit

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## Windjammer




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## Edevelop

I somehow like Mirage V's role in PAF. It is known as an 'Attack Aircraft'. Its advantage that nor F-16, J-10, JF-17, F-7PG has is its Mach Speed of about Mach 2.2. While our air force is now in position to just 'Defend', it will be great to use these Mirages if we get a chance to attack Indian air bases before they fly. The faster the speed the easier the job for us.

I think we should keep a couple of squadrons and keep upgrading them. Both Israel and South Africa have transformed their's to new models known as 'Kifirs' and 'Cheetah'

Kfir: (Israel)





Cheetah: (South Africa)





This is how we have upgraded ours so far:

Fuselage:





New Radome Shape:





Air refuelling:





New Weapons: (Ra'ad integration)





New Radar (Grifo)





Upgraded Avionics:


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## untitled

cb4 said:


> Kfir: (Israel)




Note the Kfir in the above picture. It is in American Navy markings. It was used by the American Navy for aggressor training


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## Jango

cb4 said:


>



This is the reconnaissance version, notice the slanted nose at the end. There is a camera there.

*And this aircraft has no radar.*


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## Nishan_101

I think it was quite possible for the PAF in 1980s to produce these type of Mirages at PAC with French help for about 210 along 30-50 dual seats of such type and with another 21-30 examples of reconnaissance version for reconnaissance and intelligence purposes then I am sure the PAC would look different from what is now and what it was before.


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## Nishan_101

danger-zone said:


> *February 8, 2001:* _Pakistan - Air Force Shenyang FT-6 at Quetta - International (Samungli)_


 
Although if PAF had also tried to co-produce 100F-7P/30FT-7Ps with Chinese like if they have gone for the Mirages. They can modify these jets with the similar avionics like on Mirages and may be engine if French had allowed us to assembled engine at PAC engine facility.

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## Jango

Which squadrons has those Mirage III R versions?


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## Donatello

Can someone confirm, if the Night Strike eagles are based at Masroor?
Like what Mirage Assets do we have at Masroor?


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## khurramkareem

Is it 
real??


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## Edevelop



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## Edevelop



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## Windjammer

*Busy Flight line at Samungli Air Base.*

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## KristinaDanitz

yes you are absolutely right,They have an outrageous features to grab an intensive kind of radar.

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## Alphacharlie

All Pix above -

The airframe life of Chinese J7 or Mig 21 Type 57 Copy of 2500hrs
1960-70s Mirages are nearly 5 years more at a Max....

In Modern Combat will above be able to stop a single Sqn of F 18s or Mirage 2005/ F15/ Rafale ? 

PAF cant replace 250 + Jets


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## ziaulislam

Alphacharlie said:


> All Pix above -
> 
> The airframe life of Chinese J7 or Mig 21 Type 57 Copy of 2500hrs
> 1960-70s Mirages are nearly 5 years more at a Max....
> 
> In Modern Combat will above be able to stop a single Sqn of F 18s or Mirage 2005/ F15/ Rafale ?
> 
> PAF cant replace 250 + Jets


since when do u have rafale??
by the time india does get it most all or atleast most will be retired by 250 thunders..36-50FC-20s


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## Alphacharlie

ziaulislam said:


> since when do u have rafale??
> by the time india does get it most all or atleast most will be retired by 250 thunders..36-50FC-20s



Sunny Jim live in reality...the post was generic Rafale refferd to Armie De La AIR...
In case they want to come and play in your back yard.

Cost of replacing 250 Jets will be 8 Bn atlest at 30 mill excluding the weaps and support sys

Replacing 250 jets in 5 years...ONLY USAF Can do. STOP Dreaming


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## Edevelop

Alphacharlie said:


> Sunny Jim live in reality...the post was generic Rafale refferd to Armie De La AIR...
> In case they want to come and play in your back yard.
> 
> Cost of replacing 250 Jets will be 8 Bn atlest at 30 mill excluding the weaps and support sys
> 
> Replacing 250 jets in 5 years...ONLY USAF Can do. STOP Dreaming



20+ Embargoed F-16 Block 40 will arrive in December 2012. We have an option to buy another batch of 18 F-16 Block 52

42 Current JF-17 Block 1. Don't forget that the rate of production is increasing every year. Moreover, keep in mind that 50 extra will come will come from China. So in 5 years down the road, I expect 150+ including Block 2 and a couple of Block 3 to be in service for air force

36+ J-10B are on order. We are expecting delivery from 2013-2014.

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## Alphacharlie

cb4 said:


> 20+ Embargoed F-16 Block 40 will arrive in December 2012. We have an option to buy another batch of 18 F-16 Block 52
> 
> 42 Current JF-17 Block 1. Don't forget that the rate of production is increasing every year. Moreover, keep in mind that 50 extra will come will come from China. So in 5 years down the road, I expect 150+ including Block 2 and a couple of Block 3 to be in service for air force
> 
> 36+ J-10B are on order. We are expecting delivery from 2013-2014.






Point 1 --Rejected seeing the current US relations. No contract signed 

Point 2-- 30+ in Service no confirmation 2nd Sqn has been activated. 

Point 3 --HyperBola again...if 50+ JF17s would be coming a year or two then Conversion would have started for 3 SQNs which is a massive effort. No news on Training/ground support change no news on possible scrapping of 3 SQNs which aircraft will it be ??

As per process conversion for 50 pilots +10 Back ups is massive exercise, you need to train Ground Crew need to plan what to do with scraped planes, Weaps Training, EW Controls and Maintenance, Service Carts Usage Drills, Bomb Rack service Trainings, Maintenance service Training.,. its easy to talk for a civilian. Novices talk with no idea of reality.

On the same point, I must appreciate your AEM/AEL crews for maintaining these Golden Birds and flying them when spares are so scares, with high availability rate.

Summing up I would like to live in reality, rather than an Illusion ..So that I am better trained and prepared to face any Challenge.

I don&#8217;t mind being beaten or thrashed but what matters is my efficacy of actual tools in my hand.

-- An Aviator salutes fellow aviator, But Looks in Eye of Opponent with Respect when time of Challenge is forced...


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## ziaulislam

Alphacharlie said:


> Sunny Jim live in reality...the post was generic Rafale refferd to Armie De La AIR...
> In case they want to come and play in your back yard.
> 
> Cost of replacing 250 Jets will be 8 Bn atlest at 30 mill excluding the weaps and support sys
> 
> Replacing 250 jets in 5 years...ONLY USAF Can do. STOP Dreaming


i think it would be more like near 140 odd (50 thunders already ready) in 5 years through JF-17 and fc-20s..

regarding USA nothing is predicted what would happen of F-16s but after USA election things will get clear..

REMEMBER, its physically impossible for USA to withdraw without Pakistan lines, thats why once election is over in USA you will see a radical change in their behavior.
also they havent stopped the F-16 programme in first place anyway.....
by 2015 end PAF will surely have atleast 250 modern fighters (66f-16s,36-50 j-10s and 150 thunders)
by 2020 we will have 350 modern fighters..additional will come either in form of thunder,f-16s or FC-20s..depending upon the situation and economics


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## OrionHunter

ARIZ ZAFAR said:


> the process for induction in PAF has started but would love to see an *european fighter than a Chinese one.*


Why? You guys don't seem to have much confidence in Chinese weapon platforms, what? But European/American aircraft cost the Earth - at least 4 times the cost of a Chinese one which they give you after heavy discounts!


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## fatman17

OrionHunter said:


> Why?* You guys don't seem to have much confidence in Chinese weapon platforms*, what? But European/American aircraft cost the Earth - at least 4 times the cost of a Chinese one which they give you after heavy discounts!



dont worry sir we do. i could ask you the same question?. why didnt you guys obediently pick the MiG-35 as your MMRCA. i think the answer is obvious!!!



Donatello said:


> Can someone confirm, if the Night Strike eagles are based at Masroor?
> Like what Mirage Assets do we have at Masroor?



no night strike mirages at masroor however at least 2 squadrons are based at masroor including a maritime strike squadron.

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## Manticore

Matra JL-100. The JL-100 was a combination of rocket pod and fuel tank, with 18 68mm SNEB unguided rockets located in front of 250l / 66 gal of fuel.


> Saudi English Electric Lightning with two JL-100

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## Manticore

bombs below external fuel tanks

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## Manticore



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## Windjammer



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## DANGER-ZONE

@ANTIBODY

Can we shift Mirage related discussion here http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a-15.html and keep this thread for F-7p/pg and other PAF aircrafts. That thread holds handful amount of info regarding Mirage.


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## Khaqan Humayun

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;970204 said:


> They will be retired and scraped!


why dont we study jet aircraft in Paf college????
we must try to study jet Engin we have talanted mind.

we must send our retired aircraft fighter or Boing to PAF Engniraing College for Study and reverse enginiraning.


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## Khaqan Humayun

we have big fleet of F7 me must study as well as we Must Buy retired Mig and other jets for study. study study and study to make our indipandent jet Fighter.


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## jamesseo89

I think cureently PAF need to push the production of JF-17 Block-II along with the dual seat and about 100 of them to replace 100 Mirage-III/Vs from fleet and later on 100-150 JF-17 Block-IIIs to replace F-7s and other remaining Mirages along with procuring or license production of J-31s...


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## Dazzler

F-7PG sortie, a rare video...

Pakistan Air force F-7PG Sortie - YouTube

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## slapshot

ANTIBODY said:


>


Wondering if pakistan ever had any mirage III or V with canards? Never seen any with PAF though there were canards version in some air forces like swiss air force.


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## Edevelop

cb4 said:


>

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## Dazzler

slapshot said:


> Wondering if pakistan ever had any mirage III or V with canards? Never seen any with PAF though there were canards version in some air forces like swiss air force.



Sagem offered a canards config but PAF refused

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## slapshot

Dazzler said:


> Sagem offered a canards config but PAF refused



Any specific reasons ?


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## Dazzler

slapshot said:


> Any specific reasons ?



Fixed canards are a bit of mix deal, they provide a fixed pitch i.e. limited lift but add weight. Disturbance in Mirage intake turbulent airflow particularly at higher speeds was not acceptable to PAF though canard had advantage at low speed, provided better handling.

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## nomi007



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## khanasifm

nomi007 said:


>



USAF F7/MiG 21 Eval

Evaluation of MiG-21 By USAF - YouTube



nomi007 said:


>



USAF F7/MiG 21 Eval

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reVZ9aPYi9A


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## Edevelop



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## Tajdar adil

paf need upgrad its f 7pg to bvr capability.because they are just 11 year old.

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## S.Y.A

i say retire these planes, save the money spent on their maintenance, pump that money into jf-17 program or some R&D related to long range SAMs and radars. these planes make up about 70% of our combat aircraft and must be eating up a lot of money, so we will quite have a good amount(but not v.much though).

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## rockstar08

i think pakistan should give those f-7s and mirage to pakistan NAVY to operate and buildup it air fleet ... that would really help navy to defend against enemies as pak navy is very weak

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## Rajput_Pakistani

S.Y.A said:


> i say retire these planes, save the money spent on their maintenance, pump that money into jf-17 program or some R&D related to long range SAMs and radars. these planes make up about 70% of our combat aircraft and must be eating up a lot of money, so we will quite have a good amount(but not v.much though).



Dear Sir, you dont know even the ABC of Air force operational and organizational needs. Can you please elaborate on Cost/benefit part of your post? Regards.

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## S.Y.A

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Dear Sir, you dont know even the ABC of Air force operational and organizational needs. Can you please elaborate on Cost/benefit part of your post? Regards.



these aircrafts are decades old, and are totally useless in modern warfare...so no benefit, only maintenance costs


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## ejaz007

rockstar08 said:


> i think pakistan should give those f-7s and mirage to pakistan NAVY to operate and buildup it air fleet ... that would really help navy to defend against enemies as pak navy is very weak



For me this is the post of the day.

Still trying to understand what the poster wants.


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## Gryphon

rockstar08 said:


> i think pakistan should give those f-7s and mirage to pakistan NAVY to operate and buildup it air fleet ... that would really help navy to defend against enemies as pak navy is very weak



Mirage IIIs & Vs will go once all F-7Ps are phased out in 2015. They are costly to maintain and spares are difficult to get. No ex-PAF Mirages will be transferred to PN. Currently, PAF has 54 JF-17 Block 1s. Two squadrons are active while the third will be raised soon. These three squadrons will replace all retired A-5Cs on one-for-one basis.

Mirage III ROSE and V ROSE will stay in PAF at least for this decade. Mectron MAR-1 air-to-surface anti-radiation missiles have been integrated to the III/V ROSE fighters.



> As PAF lacks resources, F-7PG will remain in service till 2020. And It should be upgraded further with better avionics & weapons. Can't F-7PGs be integrated with any BVR missiles? It is rumoured that Bangladesh's F-7BG/BG1s can fire BVR's.



@Aeronaut @fatman17 @Armstrong @Imran Khan @F.O.X @BDforever

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## rockstar08

ejaz007 said:


> For me this is the post of the day.
> 
> Still trying to understand what the poster wants.



just want to see a strong pak navy


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## ejaz007

rockstar08 said:


> just want to see a strong pak navy



With the limited budget navy has this shall ensure that whatever procurement plans navy has shall go down the drain.


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## rockstar08

ejaz007 said:


> With the limited budget navy has this shall ensure that whatever procurement plans navy has shall go down the drain.




yeah but navy need funds , our navy is very weak right now we cant even defend our coast lines with indian navy blocked in case of limited war , navy needs 2-3 items before 2015 . such as 2 type 45A chinese destroyers on lease + at least 3 qing or yaun class subs with nuclear tipped CM and 1-2 frigates ... our six old ex uk frigates will be retiring soon , with 6 of them out from service we need to fill this gap ...


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## nomi007

PHOTOS OF PAF F-7 with LGBs

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## Tacticool

We saw 14 airframes lost between 2007 to july 2013. 
Before 2008 no f7 was lost to crash.
and before 2011 no mirage 5 was lost.
What is the reason of such sudden increase in losses?


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## Tacticool

S.Y.A said:


> i say retire these planes, save the money spent on their maintenance, pump that money into jf-17 program or some R&D related to long range SAMs and radars. these planes make up about 70% of our combat aircraft and must be eating up a lot of money, so we will quite have a good amount(but not v.much though).



I think retiring a squadron of oldest mirages to boost up jf-17 induction will be a really good idea.


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## Tacticool

Paf x-air marshal rao qamar said that maintaining these mirages is very costly as no one manufacturing the spares. The ones we get have unknown flight hours on them. it is a flight safety issue. Then why we have not retired them? He said that 2 years ago.

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## nomi007

economical problems and replacing f-7s and mirages 
looking very taught

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## nomi007




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## nomi007

without canopy

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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


> without canopy



Pilot ko garmi zayada lag rahi ho ge is lye utar de ho ge

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## HariPrasad

Imran Khan said:


> f-7pgs are same as MIG-21 dude even f-7 has new air frame then MIGs and do you check the record of nig-21 crash rate? our f-7s are main interceptors on all over Pakistan . abut mirages you know some thing what shape they got after rose upgrade? they can fire cruse missiles ans BVRs with air refueling they are working horses bro. you underestimate them because they are old then you have to know f-7s are newer then our our f-16 and mirages 50 which we got from Libya they was brand new. there is much much power in these air crafts. yes they have to be replace but mirage rose and f-7pg will never grab as you think.you know who much they are 400 jets.just think again.



Imaran sir absolutely correct. After all Mirage are french made and hence highly reliable weapons. Look at the payload it carries. A huge 4 tons. Air-frames are very good and engines are very reliable. If upgraded, they can do a much batter job compared to some newly purchased weapons of Pakistan. After all India upgraded M2K at a huge cost of 2.5BN USD.


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## Umair Nawaz

HariPrasad said:


> Imaran sir absolutely correct. After all F 7 are french made and hence highly reliable weapons. Look at the payload it carries. A huge 4 tons. Air-frames are very good and engines are very reliable. If upgraded, they can do a much batter job compared to some newly purchased weapons of Pakistan. After all India upgraded M2K at a huge cost of 2.5BN USD.



F-7PGs r Chinese Made not French made. French made Mirages r in our armory.

and mirage 2000 is a 4th gen class fighter and F-7P not PG and Mirages 3,4 or 5 without ROSE 3 update r 3rd gen fighters......Because of class difference they cant be compared.


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## HariPrasad

Umair Nawaz said:


> F-7PGs r Chinese Made not French made. French made Mirages r in our armory.



Sorry read my post in context of French Mirage which I saw in picture on this thread.


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## HariPrasad

Umair Nawaz said:


> F-7PGs r Chinese Made not French made. French made Mirages r in our armory.
> 
> and mirage 2000 is a 4th gen class fighter and F-7P not PG and Mirages 3,4 or 5 without ROSE 3 update r 3rd gen fighters......Because of class difference they cant be compared.



I do not say that they will become comparable to M2k but if upgraded, they can play a very important role for PAF as bision played for India. French weapon are very reliable, long lasting and trust worthy. If you spend some money for upgrade, it will be worth spending. You will have a capability which will cause a concern for your adversary i.e India.


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## Umair Nawaz

HariPrasad said:


> Sorry read my post in context of French Mirage which I saw in picture on this thread.



What r u a Joker?


HariPrasad said:


> Imaran sir absolutely correct. *After all F 7 are french made *and hence highly reliable weapons. Look at the payload it carries. A huge 4 tons. Air-frames are very good and engines are very reliable. If upgraded, they can do a much batter job compared to some newly purchased weapons of Pakistan. After all India upgraded M2K at a huge cost of 2.5BN USD.



This is the post replied to yr editing of yr original post doesnt matter when the original post has been quoted.

Even this stupid man didnt bothered to look at my post after he edited his original post where is post was quoted.

Another show of Hindu Stupidity.



HariPrasad said:


> I do not say that they will become comparable to M2k but if upgraded, they can play a very important role for PAF as bision played for India. French weapon are very reliable, long lasting and trust worthy. If you spend some money for upgrade, it will be worth spending. You will have a capability which will cause a concern for your adversary i.e India.



Pagal, They r meant for defence and r comparable to yr Migs the bisons as u refer them. their jobs mainly will be to intercept them.


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## HariPrasad

Umair Nawaz said:


> What r u a Joker?
> 
> 
> This is the post replied to yr editing of yr original post doesnt matter when the original post has been quoted.
> 
> Even this stupid man didnt bothered to look at my post after he edited his original post where is post was quoted.
> 
> Another show of Hindu Stupidity.
> 
> 
> 
> Pagal, They r meant for defence and r comparable to yr Migs the bisons as u refer them. their jobs mainly will be to intercept them.




I was wondered by your 2 previous post. How can a master troll can contain himself without demonstrating his idiocy? Any way you removed my misconception in just few minutes. 

Now read my post I say sorry for confusing between Chinese and French plane prior to I replace F7 with Mirage. I am not as Idiot as you are who think that if I correct my post than it will be corrected in reference post. So give your Pakistani Idiocy a rest.

When you also accept that their job is to intercept like mig as I said than what is the justification of word Pagal except exhibition of your seek mentality?


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## Umair Nawaz

HariPrasad said:


> I was wondered by your 2 previous post. How can a master troll can contain himself without demonstrating his idiocy? Any way you removed my misconception in just few minutes.
> 
> Now read my post I say sorry for confusing between Chinese and French plane prior to I replace F7 with Mirage. I am not as Idiot as you are who think that if I correct my post than it will be corrected in reference post. So give your Pakistani Idiocy a rest.
> 
> When you also accept that their job is to intercept like mig as I said than what is the justification of word Pagal except exhibition of your seek mentality?



What can i aspect from a man whose head is struck in a cow dump.

Here is yr post....



HariPrasad said:


> Sorry* read my post in context of French Mirage* which I saw in picture on this thread.



Thats why i wrote that in reply to yr post..and please with people like u here we r pushed way back and dont try to play with me kid i still remember what u wrote in reply to Dazzler and that Russian member who admitted that T90 is no match to AK in AK comparison thread. Even when yr shown concrete facts about that.

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## Umair Nawaz

HariPrasad said:


> I was wondered by your 2 previous post. How can a master troll can contain himself without demonstrating his idiocy? Any way you removed my misconception in just few minutes.
> 
> Now read my post I say sorry for confusing between Chinese and French plane prior to I replace F7 with Mirage. I am not as Idiot as you are who think that if I correct my post than it will be corrected in reference post. So give your Pakistani Idiocy a rest.
> 
> When you also accept that their job is to intercept like mig as I said than what is the justification of word Pagal except exhibition of your seek mentality?



What can i aspect from a man whose head is struck in a cow dump.

Here is yr post....



HariPrasad said:


> Sorry* read my post in context of French Mirage* which I saw in picture on this thread.



Thats why i wrote that in reply to yr post..and please with people like u here we r pushed way back and dont try to play with me kid i still remember what u wrote in reply to Dazzler and that Russian member who admitted that T90 is no match to AK in AK comparison thread. Even when yr shown concrete facts about that.


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## nomi007

twin seater rare image

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## nomi007

Grifo-7PG

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## nomi007

F-7MP is a further upgraded variant of F-7P with improved cockpit layout and navigation system. PAF ordered 60 F-7MPs during the late 80s, then later took delivery of another 80 aircraft. It was reported that subsequently all F-7Ps were upgraded to MP standard. Both F-7P and F-7MP are generally referred to as F-7P since the external difference is minimum. The most noticeable feature of F-7MP is the BM/KJ-8602 RWR antennas on top of the vertical tail. In the mid-90s PAF planned to replace the GEC-Marconi GMAv Skyranger ranging radar with the more powerful FIAR Grifo 7 multi-mode fire-control radar, but the work was postponed until early 2004 due to certain technical and financial difficulties. It was reported that Grifo-7 was later replaced by the further improved Grifo-MK-II which can track 4 targets simultaneously and engage 1.

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## nomi007

Azm-e-Nau-4

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## ejaz007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

*Distended internal tanks*

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## jupiter2007

All the junk should be replaced by Jf-17 and new/used F-16s.


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## Viking 63

That would be 90% of the PAF inventory !!!


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## Storm Force

In other words highly unlikely....its 250 fighters that acquiring.thus far its taken four years to induct 50 thunders...imagine how much time and money will be needed to replace 250 planes


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## jupiter2007

Storm Force said:


> In other words highly unlikely....its 250 fighters that acquiring.thus far its taken four years to induct 50 thunders...imagine how much time and money will be needed to replace 250 planes



It takes sometime to get the things rolling. I am sure Kamra can increase the production line from 4 to 8, which means producing 3-4 plane per month.

(One JF-17 per month = 12 per year x 4 years = 48 planes)
(Two JF-17 per month = 24 per year x 4 years = 96 Planes)
(Three JF-17 per month = 36 per year x 4 years = 144 Planes)
(Four JF-17 per month = 48 per year x 4 years = 196 Planes)

Pakistan by 2018:
1983-2013:- 63 F-16 (MLU + Block50/52+) in the service, Plus additional 14 on order.
1968-2013:- 75 Dassault Mirage 3 in the serve, majority of these Mirage will be replace by Jf-17 by 2018.
1973-2013:- 80 Dassault Mirage 5 in the service, majority of these Mirage will be replace by Jf-17 by 2018.
1988-2013:- 186 F-7 in service, 40-60 F-7PG will still be in the service untill 2020, rest will be replaced by Jf-17.
2007-2013:- 50 JF-17 blk 1 will be in service by the end of 2013.
2014-2017:- 100 JF-17 blk 2 (Production Kit on order from China)
2017-2018:- 25 JF-17 blk 3
2014-2018:- 40+ FC-20 (In limited production in China, delivery date 2014)
2018-2021:- Waiting for true 5th generation plane.

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## BATMAN

Storm Force said:


> In other words highly unlikely....its 250 fighters that acquiring.thus far its taken four years to induct 50 thunders...imagine how much time and money will be needed to replace 250 planes



Thank lord and Musharraf, that we have 50. Otherwise, Zardari tried hard to roll back JFT and nuclear program.
It was big scandal... couple of years back.

SC urged to get Army help on NRO verdict

Growth Strategy Based on Major Cuts in Pakistani Nuclear Budget ~ Pakistan Military Review

Pakistan a failed state, stated Planning Commission chief - thenews.com.pk

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## Storm Force

Jupitar wake up from fantasy land....these things cost serious money and take time .... Pakistan induct 250 planes includingfc20 by 2018...you are heading for ground reality. With a bang


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## ZohaibMumtaz

when will pakisatn get j-10b


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## jupiter2007

Storm Force said:


> Jupitar wake up from fantasy land....these things cost serious money and take time .... Pakistan induct 250 planes includingfc20 by 2018...you are heading for ground reality. With a bang



I am awake, and I have broken down things or simplified it for you to understand them.
Pakistani defense is a top priority for Army.

If Pakistani government can some how start the process to get the stolen 50 billions which is sitting in the foreign banks, but unfortunately current government is more corrupt than previous one. Only solution to this problem right now is COUP.


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## Chak Bamu

jupiter2007 said:


> I am awake, and I have broken down things or simplified it for you to understand them.
> Pakistani defense is a top priority for Army.
> 
> If Pakistani government can some how start the process to get the stolen 50 billions which is sitting in the foreign banks, but unfortunately current government is more corrupt than previous one. Only solution to this problem right now is COUP.



Why are you bringing politics into this thread. Coup my foot. What oath do officers take when they get their commission?

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## jupiter2007

Chak Bamu said:


> Why are you bringing politics into this thread. Coup my foot. What oath do officers take when they get their commission?



*It doesn't have to be a military coup*, Coup d'état............ a civil coup, A judicial coup?


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## nomi007

Pakistan Air Force F-7 fighter jet in China cannon close-to-ground attack


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## trident2010

Best solution is to replace all the old planes with JF-17 and J-10B. However, economy and political will is the deciding factor.


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## nomi007



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## nomi007

Operator: Poland - Air Force - 7110
Aircraft: Mikoyan-Gurevich - MiG-19PM 
Airport: Italy - Cerbaiola Aviation Museum
Preserved inside Aviation museum Cerbaiola Rimini. Eos 50D Canon 18-200. Aircraft is painted in the colours of the Pakistan Air Force

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## nomi007

with h-2

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## nomi007

ft-7

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

*PR99418 F-104A Starfighter, 9 Griffin Squadron, Pakistan Air Force, Masroor, 1971*

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## nomi007

ft-7

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## nomi007

showing f-16s making means it hunted f-16

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## nomi007

guess it

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## nomi007



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## nomi007




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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

PAF F-7PG's on a regular Joint-Sortie

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## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> PAF F-7PG's on a regular Joint-Sortie


Nice pic thx for sharing, however in all due respect these look like reg F-7P's and not F-7PG's .

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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Nice pic thx for sharing, however in all due respect these look like reg F-7P's and not F-7PG's .


 
look close at the double-delta wings.

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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> look close at the double-delta wings.


 
Abhe tu aap jawan hain you spotted well.

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## TOPGUN

TOPGUN said:


> Nice pic thx for sharing, however in all due respect these look like reg F-7P's and not F-7PG's .



Thanks you are correct sir ;


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## nomi007

are they are same jets

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> are they are same jets
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 17133


 
amazing the size difference!


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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

A No.27 Sqn _'Zarrars'_ Mirage prepares to refuel from Il-78 tanker, whereas other two aircraft from No.7 Sqn _'Bandits' _wait for their turn.



looks mirage V also have ifr probe

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## SQ8

Please do not repeat pictures. They all have been posted before thrice. Stick to only the topic and new information on the aircraft.

Thanks.

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## M.AsfandYar

mugundhan said:


> dude mig -21 bison is day/night capable/BVR/better radar than f-7
> i agree crash rate (due to age and during training ).but mig -21 bison crash rate is very small.


LOLs 
Check again.
How many crashed in the LAST 30 Years.


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## nomi007

Flight Lieutenant Salimuddin shot down an Indian Air Force SU-7 on 6, December 1971 while flying a No.5 Sqn Mirage-III EP.

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## nomi007



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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


>






A-5 fantan bhai not F-7 or mirage

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> A-5 fantan bhai not F-7 or mirage


Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts

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## nomi007

Mirage-IIIE Lebanese air force ... All Mirage was sold to Pakistan in 2000

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## nomi007

Ex-Pakistani Air Force Shenyang F-6 in Etimesgut Aviation Museum Ankara-Turkey


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## Kompromat



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## Windjammer

Aeronaut said:


> View attachment 23683


^^

Seems like a new dessert como for the F-7PG
F-7P in FGA Configuration

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

GIFTED BY TURKISH AIR FORCE
hope they also gift f-4 phantom for the @ 
*cabatli_53 *

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## Munir

I am big fan of TAF. The F104 maybe a rocket plane but it is what I have seen million times when I was a kiddo. There is not even one second I get bored looking at it.


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## Donatello

Aeronaut said:


> View attachment 23683



Man, you got some serious flames on there!


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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 24730
> GIFTED BY TURKISH AIR FORCE
> hope they also gift f-4 phantom for the @
> *cabatli_53 *

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## nomi007



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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## nomi007

A pair of PAF *F-7PG*s were photographed with a load of fuel tanks and AIM-9L AAMs

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## Jf Thunder

Aeronaut said:


> View attachment 23683


whuts happening to the plane?


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## araz

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Although PAF had been facing many problems in the past but they should have at least produced F-7s on their own with Chinese and EU assistance at PAC starting from 1988 and sell or give away free of cost some 150 F-6/FT-6 to BAF.
> 
> Like producing 100 F-7P and 30 FT-7P and later on 100 F-7PG and 30 FT-7PG. The trainers will phase out FT-6.


You have not listened to any advice. You are babbling on like a fool and you will get banned again. Listen to me again please!! PAF/PAC does not have enough money to produce what it is producing. Do you want it to go bankrupt trying to produce something which should really be retired. Why then do we not produce the mustangs or the messerschmidts of the past? they were lovely planes. Please have some thought behind your post. For the last time we do not have the money to produce JFT and are begging left right and center to get the funds.
Araz

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## Battle Axe

Won't it be prudent for PAF to ground ageing Mirages now, especially Mirage III aircrafts, they are a huge cost to maintain and then, there is no foreseeable conflict that involves us extensively bombing somewhere with Mirages. The F-7Ps can stay in to make numbers while the Mirages should just be shifted down to war time assets.

And the saved bucks can go to expanding the production facilities in Kamra to atleast 50 A/C per year, which we are capable of but are producing a hardly 20-30. Time to see the money bring spent on Mirages go into JFT Block II, however minuscule if may be as on future, we see limited area conflicts, these mirages will hardly play a role.

And these used F-16s come cheap and as worthy as our JFTs if not more, so probably we should take this number to 100, backed up by JFTs and F-7P for the time, which too should go when JFT someday reaches the 250 mark.

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## fatman17

Battle Axe said:


> Won't it be prudent for PAF to ground ageing Mirages now, especially Mirage III aircrafts, they are a huge cost to maintain and then, there is no foreseeable conflict that involves us extensively bombing somewhere with Mirages. The F-7Ps can stay in to make numbers while the Mirages should just be shifted down to war time assets.
> 
> And the saved bucks can go to expanding the production facilities in Kamra to atleast 50 A/C per year, which we are capable of but are producing a hardly 20-30. Time to see the money bring spent on Mirages go into JFT Block II, however minuscule if may be as on future, we see limited area conflicts, these mirages will hardly play a role.
> 
> And these used F-16s come cheap and as worthy as our JFTs if not more, so probably we should take this number to 100, backed up by JFTs and F-7P for the time, which too should go when JFT someday reaches the 250 mark.


 
its one way but we cannot reduce significantly the number of front-line sqdns. it has to be gradual.


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## Battle Axe

fatman17 said:


> its one way but we cannot reduce significantly the number of front-line sqdns. it has to be gradual.



Just wishing JFT production Godspeed!

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## nomi007

Jf Thunder said:


> whuts happening to the plane?


image i posted is latest not many

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## Windjammer

Jf Thunder said:


> whuts happening to the plane?



It's firing it's twin 30mm cannons.

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## Najam Khan

Battle Axe said:


> Won't it be prudent for PAF to ground ageing Mirages now, especially Mirage III aircrafts, they are a huge cost to maintain and then, there is no foreseeable conflict that involves us extensively bombing somewhere with Mirages. The F-7Ps can stay in to make numbers while the Mirages should just be shifted down to war time assets.
> 
> And the saved bucks can go to expanding the production facilities in Kamra to atleast 50 A/C per year, which we are capable of but are producing a hardly 20-30. Time to see the money bring spent on Mirages go into JFT Block II, however minuscule if may be as on future, we see limited area conflicts, these mirages will hardly play a role.
> 
> And these used F-16s come cheap and as worthy as our JFTs if not more, so probably we should take this number to 100, backed up by JFTs and F-7P for the time, which too should go when JFT someday reaches the 250 mark.



Retiring old air frame just because they are appearing expensive on paper is so easy task in reality. Leave an aircraft type a side, disbanding a squadron is itself a gigantic task. Planning is required to move its assets (whether its aircraft/weapons/fuel stores/aircraft spares, squadron office inventory/assigned vehicles/ground power units etc.) and people into other squadrons depending upon need of those assets in unit where they are transferred. This all takes months, same goes for planning for induction of new squadron.

Plus, retiring old air frames is directly proportional to achieving the set minimum deterrence (read doctrine) with adversary. Mirages are still good to serve 5+ years easily; Expense is not given much weight when it is required to maintain a set number of operational aircraft at any cost. Ever wonder why F-6 was put in service till 2002, clearly its era was long gone by 90s. Same goes for B-57s, F-86E etc. 

Mirages are the need of PAF and she will continue to spend to maintain her strength in strike role; clearly the procurement of more F-16s and JF-17 programme shall complement mirages and will slowly take the major role from them but this change will take at least 6+ years more.

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## Battle Axe

Najam Khan said:


> Retiring old air frame just because they are appearing expensive on paper is so easy task in reality. Leave an aircraft type a side, disbanding a squadron is itself a gigantic task. Planning is required to move its assets (whether its aircraft/weapons/fuel stores/aircraft spares, squadron office inventory/assigned vehicles/ground power units etc.) and people into other squadrons depending upon need of those assets in unit where they are transferred. This all takes months, same goes for planning for induction of new squadron.
> 
> Plus, retiring old air frames is directly proportional to achieving the set minimum deterrence (read doctrine) with adversary. Mirages are still good to serve 5+ years easily; Expense is not given much weight when it is required to maintain a set number of operational aircraft at any cost. Ever wonder why F-6 was put in service till 2002, clearly its era was long gone by 90s. Same goes for B-57s, F-86E etc.
> 
> Mirages are the need of PAF and she will continue to spend to maintain her strength in strike role; clearly the procurement of more F-16s and JF-17 programme shall complement mirages and will slowly take the major role from them but this change will take at least 6+ years more.




Can these Mirages really fulfill their job description, say for the sake of wargaming, it's a war in 2018 and we need to strike deep in India?

And sanctioned strength: I know it's not but shouldn't that be an evolving number. IAF, for instance is operating well below that number.

Admitted that's it's an arduous task but won't it eventually ease things out with just 3 types of Aircrafts to maintain? Can't 3 new squadrons of JFT fill in for them and then likely any future conflict is going to be a limited one and not an all-out war.


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## fatman17

Battle Axe said:


> Can these Mirages really fulfill their job description, say for the sake of wargaming, it's a war in 2018 and we need to strike deep in India?
> 
> And sanctioned strength: I know it's not but shouldn't that be an evolving number. IAF, for instance is operating well below that number.
> 
> Admitted that's it's an arduous task but won't it eventually ease things out with just 3 types of Aircrafts to maintain? Can't 3 new squadrons of JFT fill in for them and then likely any future conflict is going to be a limited one and not an all-out war.


 
first of striking deep into india for what. PAF will have its hands full with the 30'odd IAF bases along the eastern border. a combibation of mirage-rose, vipers and JFT's would be used,


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## Najam Khan

Battle Axe said:


> Can these Mirages really fulfill their job description, say for the sake of wargaming, it's a war in 2018 and we need to strike deep in India?
> 
> And sanctioned strength: I know it's not but shouldn't that be an evolving number. IAF, for instance is operating well below that number.
> 
> Admitted that's it's an arduous task but won't it eventually ease things out with just 3 types of Aircrafts to maintain? Can't 3 new squadrons of JFT fill in for them and then likely any future conflict is going to be a limited one and not an all-out war.


Yes, they (esp Mirage-VEF / -VDD/ -IIIEL variants) are eligible to perform such strike missions. In present scenario or say 2018, they would never be flying solo but rather complimented by F-16s or JF-17s as top cover.


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## VelocuR

Just wonder, can these old planes sell to Jordan, Algeria, and other Arab friendly countries for some money to upgrade on JF-17s or secret projects?


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## ali_raza

RaptorRX707 said:


> Just wonder, can these old planes sell to Jordan, Algeria, and other Arab friendly countries for some money to upgrade on JF-17s or secret projects?


lol these planes are allready given by them to us


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## VelocuR

ali_raza said:


> lol these planes are allready given by them to us



Now we need to throw old junks and other garbages for some million dollars, PAF is lagging behind in many ways and today's modern advanced airforce welfares.


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## Storm Force

F7PG can should be equipped with better WVR missles and a BVR capability added with SD10 new cockpit like the MIG21 bisons.

The Mirages i would use purely for NAVY SUPPORT land based carrying anti ship cuise missles and some limited air combat cover .

LEAVE THE JOB OF MAINTAINING AIR SUPERIORITY & CAS over PAK airspace to Thunders & F16.

IMO by 2018 PAF should look like this

,,7 \\/


p bb,k[p;.6 F16 MLU/52
100 JF17 mk1 & 2xxxxxxxxx

#

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## notorious_eagle

Storm Force said:


> F7PG can should be equipped with better WVR missles and a BVR capability added with SD10 new cockpit like the MIG21 bisons.
> 
> The Mirages i would use purely for NAVY SUPPORT land based carrying anti ship cuise missles and some limited air combat cover .
> 
> LEAVE THE JOB OF MAINTAINING AIR SUPERIORITY & CAS over PAK airspace to Thunders & F16.
> 
> IMO by 2018 PAF should look like this



Thank You so much for your words of wisdom

I will write a letter to CAS and DCAS and tell them to implement exactly what you said. You are the best friend of Pakistan Air Force, its best well wisher. What could we possibly do without your words of wisdom, we would have perished in our utter incompetency if it weren't for your Hon Storm Force the most brilliant Tactical and Strategic Mind for Aerial Warfare.

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## Storm Force

> Thank You so much for your words of wisdom
> I will write a letter to CAS and DCAS and tell them to implement exactly what you said. You are the best friend of Pakistan Air Force, its best well wisher. What could we possibly do without your words of wisdom, we would have perished in our utter incompetency if it weren't for your Hon Storm Force the most brilliant Tactical and Strategic Mind for Aerial Warfare.


 
Just put the hatred aside mate.

Your attempt at sarcasm is pathetic

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## Basel

@Storm Force i will agree that PAF need to put much better WVR missiles on all of its fighter with at least good quality HMS if HMD is not possible and F-7PG also fall in this category. The reason for it is that many future air battles in Indo Pak scenario will still be WVRs ones.

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## notorious_eagle

Basel said:


> @Storm Force *i will agree that PAF need to put much better WVR missiles on all of its fighter with at least good quality HMS if HMD is not possible and F-7PG also fall in this category. *The reason for it is that many future air battles in Indo Pak scenario will still be WVRs ones.



F7PG already have good WVRAAM's cued up with very effective HMS.

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## Alphacharlie

Basel said:


> @Storm Force i will agree that PAF need to put much better WVR missiles on all of its fighter with at least good quality HMS if HMD is not possible and F-7PG also fall in this category. The reason for it is that many future air battles in Indo Pak scenario will still be WVRs ones.




If you state AirComabt will be WVR - Then let me highlight why PAF shyed away in 1999.

Gentlemen - If I can SHOOT an Allegator by a Gun - Why should I use a Spear.... This simple logic xplains use BVR against WVR missile.

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## elitepilot09

Alphacharlie said:


> If you state AirComabt will be WVR - Then let me highlight why PAF shyed away in 1999.
> 
> Gentlemen - If I can SHOOT an Allegator by a Gun - Why should I use a Spear.... This simple logic xplains use BVR against WVR missile.



First lets get one thing clear, we never "sh*i*ed" away in 1999. You were just too scared to be shot down like '65 and '71 if you came in close. 

Secondly, while I agree with your ridiculously cheesy example of the preferrance of BVR over WVR, there will always be room for WVR for years to come and you would be naive to assume otherwise.


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## Alphacharlie

elitepilot09 said:


> First lets get one thing clear, we never "shied" away in 1999. You were just too scared to be shot down like '65 and '71 if you came in close.



Congratulations you are Right.

By the way why did you not pay back for 10 AUG 1999 incident ? with your Superiority.....



elitepilot09 said:


> Secondly, while I agree with your ridiculously cheesy example of the preferrance of BVR over WVR, there will always be room for WVR for years to come and you would be naive to assume otherwise.



Can you illustrate in which case will I like to give away my Technological edge & take chance.....

Its like Saying F22 will fly with Landing Gear Open & go for an Air Interdiction sortie.


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## RAMPAGE

Alphacharlie said:


> If you state AirComabt will be WVR - Then let me highlight why PAF shyed away in 1999.
> 
> Gentlemen - If I can SHOOT an Allegator by a Gun - Why should I use a Spear.... This simple logic xplains use BVR against WVR missile.


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## Windjammer

Alphacharlie said:


> Congratulations you are Right.
> 
> By the way why did you not pay back for 10 AUG 1999 incident ? with your Superiority.....



First of all, the term ''shied away'' is nothing short of chest thumping and be in love with yourself. Both air forces remained within their respective borders and even tracked each others flights, when the Indian MiGs ingressed into Pakistani airspace, they both found out to their cost. As for the Atlantique incident, firstly it's against PAF's doctrine to shoot down an unarmed aircraft especially outside a total war, the IAF, OTOH, after loosing the two MiGs and a Chopper was desperate to salvage some pride hence it prided it'self by shooting down an unarmed airliner size aircraft..... later PAF became the first air force to shoot down a IAI Searcher II UAV of the IAF.

*A PAF Mirage V PA-2 with an assortment of weapons including HAFR, CBUs, Iron bombs and AAMs.*

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## Alphacharlie

Windjammer said:


> First of all, the term ''shied away'' is nothing short of chest thumping and be in love with yourself. Both air forces remained within their respective borders and even tracked each others flights, when the Indian MiGs ingressed into Pakistani airspace, they both found out to their cost. As for the Atlantique incident, firstly it's against PAF's doctrine to shoot down an unarmed aircraft especially outside a total war, the IAF, OTOH, after loosing the two MiGs and a Chopper was desperate to salvage some pride hence it prided it'self by shooting down an unarmed airliner size aircraft..... later PAF became the first air force to shoot down a IAI Searcher II UAV of the IAF.



Janab - You have my respect for being Closest to Truth.

19th September 1965. The twin-engine Indian Beechcraft unarmed was shot by Flg Off (Retd) Qais M. Hussain 50 miles inside Indian Territory by F86 isnt this breach of PAF Orbat.

Being your foe for me- Atlantique was unprotected instead of being unarmed.


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## Windjammer

Alphacharlie said:


> Janab - You have my respect for being true.
> 
> Being your foe for me- Atlantique was unprotected instead of being unarmed.


I don't understand the term unprotected, basically it's or was an ASW aircraft which was on a training flight when it was attacked, had it been on a mission then it may have required a fighter escort or something.
The incident of Beechcraft happened during a full scale war over enemy territory, on the contrary, when a chopper belonging to an Indian energy minister accidentally strayed into Pak air space, albeit intercepted, it was harmlessly escorted out.


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## Alphacharlie

Windjammer said:


> I don't understand the term unprotected, basically it's or was an ASW aircraft which was on a training flight when it was attacked, had it been on a mission then it may have required a fighter escort or something.



Sir

19th September 1965. The twin-engine Indian Beechcraft unarmed was shot by Flg Off (Retd) Qais M. Hussain 50 miles inside Indian Territory by F86 isnt this breach of PAF Orbat.


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## Basel

Alphacharlie said:


> If you state AirComabt will be WVR - Then let me highlight why PAF shyed away in 1999.
> Gentlemen - If I can SHOOT an Allegator by a Gun - Why should I use a Spear.... This simple logic xplains use BVR against WVR missile.



You are talking about disputed LOC where due to International Community pressure PAF was not in position to go aggressive and at that time PAF was flying CAPs at very high sortie rates all over Pakistan, if they were convinced that they can't handle their foes IAF and there will be no WVR battles then why should they have put their pilots in harms way? I still remember Mirages flying from Karachi Airport very low and very fast and have never seen those type of Mirages again, even never have seen that color scheme, it was very unique one but very cool too. PAF had exercised with many countries in which avoiding BVR tactics were included which meant that PAF pilots in 1999 knew how to handle BVR attack at that time although they may have taken loss of few planes but all BVR launches in 1999 would have not been successful.

On international borders in any air battle BVRs will be used but not necessarily in every engagement as it also depend how PAF plan to handle it foe IAF as they knew their weaknesses and strengths, due to close proximity of FOBs most engagements will be WVRs as both sides will be using AWACS and other force multipliers.



notorious_eagle said:


> F7PG already have good WVRAAM's cued up with very effective HMS.



What I meant is that we should be able to field WVRAAM + HMS + IRST at least equal to quality of IAF is fielding if we can not field better as they are superior in platforms so our platforms need better systems to come close to them.


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## Munir

I do not think there is operational hms in PAF. They will rather invest in jf17 then upgrade some p or pg. Jf17 b 3 will be the first with Hms.

Wvr is so overrated. It is like my d is longer then yours... The longer the bvr range the bigger the weight. The longer the opponent has to evade and there is a new era with drfm... Kill ratio of usa against iraci are not representing he reality of most battlefields.

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## notorious_eagle

Alphacharlie said:


> Then let me highlight why PAF shyed away in 1999.



Not true. Both sides were not engaged in a full blown shooting war, they both stayed within their respective borders.



Alphacharlie said:


> Gentlemen - If I can SHOOT an Allegator by a Gun - Why should I use a Spear.... This simple logic xplains use BVR against WVR missile.



I would agree with you if the distance between Pakistan and India was that of 1000 miles, but when your right next to each other ROE change. Whats the distance between Jallandhar and Sargodha when your flying Mach 1? Due to geographical realities, majority of aerial engagements will be WVR. One only needs to see how both AF's train, despite acquiring BVR Tech, both sides still place majority of their emphasis on WVR Combat. You train as you fight and fight as you train.



Munir said:


> I do not think there is operational hms in PAF.



Has been operational fore more than a decade on the PG's and ROSE Upgraded Mirages. Newer F16's features JHMCS.

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## elitepilot09

Alphacharlie said:


> Can you illustrate in which case will I like to give away my Technological edge & take chance.....
> Its like Saying F22 will fly with Landing Gear Open & go for an Air Interdiction sortie.



Ok, heres my question for you then sir, why do some of the best Air Forces in the world employ sidewinders in tandem with AMRAAMs? Why do America, Russia, Israel, France etc. bother to even to continue to R&D these missiles? And once you've done that, explain to me why the IAF employs missiles such as the R-73 on it's Mig-29's or SU-30's... or even the R.550 Magic on it's Mirage. Are you telling me the IAF seniors who purchased these missiles are stupid? 

*Surely*, according to you that is, there is no "case" in which SRAAMs are used... so why?



> Congratulations you are Right.
> By the way why did you not pay back for 10 AUG 1999 incident ? with your Superiority....



Who said anything about an incident? We are merely discussing BVR and WVR. Stop taking this personal and bringing up "incidents." This is a discussion forum, not where you make yourself feel better by boasting about shooting down an unarmed aircraft. 



> *Its like Saying F22 will fly with Landing Gear Open & go for an Air Interdiction sortie.*



I have to admit though... this takes the cake for the most feckless analogy I've ever heard. This sentence is so blatantly stupid that I'm not gonna bother with it. 

Although, if *you *were in the cockpit of an F-22 with a bogey 80-km out, I can totally see you pulling down your landing gear down.


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## MastanKhan

Basel said:


> @Storm Force i will agree that PAF need to put much better WVR missiles on all of its fighter with at least good quality HMS if HMD is not possible and F-7PG also fall in this category. The reason for it is that many future air battles in Indo Pak scenario will still be WVRs ones.


 
Hi,

If it gets within WVR that would mean that IAF pilots had very poor training---secondly the whole and sole reason for owning the SU 30 was negated ---those 8-10 BVR's that the su carries---just got neutralized---and the massive advantage that the su30 had was lost.

I would be at a loss to understand as to why iaf would want to give away its advantage---if BVR was the advantage that PAF---would it want to lose it at the very first oppurtunity---. PAF pilots have been trained hard to use the assets and strengths of their aircrafts to get an upper hand.

As for as paf no show at kargil---they actually had nothing to show up with---f16's could harldy fly 3 to 4 days in full conflict---,

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## Viper 94

Mirages with rose upgrades is quiet a potent fighter
they have night attack capability as well as BVR, these aircraft are also capable of firing Raad cruise missile giving the excellent stand off capability and not to mention they are capable of arial refueling now . F-7 PG is also quiet capable it 20% more maneuverable then f-7ps and can carry LGBs for strike roles
I do agree that they are old airframes and need to be replaced asap
If we take out SU-30s, Paf is just as capable as Iaf qualitatively
I have often argued on many post why Paf need a dedicated air superiority fighter

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## MastanKhan

Viper 94 said:


> I have often argued on many post why Paf need a dedicated air superiority fighter


 
Hi,

I would say that at least 2 sqdrn's of dedicated air superiority fighters and another 75 F16's----- 2 sqdrn's of new Blk 52's and rest used ones that are mlu'd.


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## Alphacharlie

Wow such Enthusiam....

But History will not given you chance again to rewrite History.

Nor will History be Botherered about High Sortie rate of PAF Mirages.

Nor will History be Bothered about IAF 2a/c losses. At the end -Victor takes *it* all.

History is written with fact they PA chaps were desimated by IAF carpet Bombing & PAF was doing Nothing.


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## elitepilot09

elitepilot09 said:


> Ok, heres my question for you then sir, why do some of the best Air Forces in the world employ sidewinders in tandem with AMRAAMs? Why do America, Russia, Israel, France etc. bother to even to continue to R&D these missiles? And once you've done that, explain to me why the IAF employs missiles such as the R-73 on it's Mig-29's or SU-30's... or even the R.550 Magic on it's Mirage. Are you telling me the IAF seniors who purchased these missiles are stupid?
> 
> *Surely*, according to you that is, there is no "case" in which SRAAMs are used... so why?
> 
> 
> 
> Who said anything about an incident? We are merely discussing BVR and WVR. Stop taking this personal and bringing up "incidents." This is a discussion forum, not where you make yourself feel better by boasting about shooting down an unarmed aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to admit though... this takes the cake for the most feckless analogy I've ever heard. This sentence is so blatantly stupid that I'm not gonna bother with it.
> 
> Although, if *you *were in the cockpit of an F-22 with a bogey 80-km out, I can totally see you pulling down your landing gear down.





Alphacharlie said:


> Wow such Enthusiam....
> 
> But History will not given you chance again to rewrite History.
> 
> Nor will History be Botherered about High Sortie rate of PAF Mirages.
> 
> Nor will History be Bothered about IAF 2a/c losses. At the end -Victor takes *it* all.
> 
> History is written with fact they PA chaps were desimated by IAF carpet Bombing & PAF was doing Nothing.



Answer my questions please. If you wanna hide, go under a rock somewhere. I've attached my post above for your reference.


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## Alphacharlie

elitepilot09 said:


> Answer my questions please. If you wanna hide, go under a rock somewhere. I've attached my post above for your reference.



Gentleman -
WVR Combat is 20KM or Less when I have ample of Missles with range 80km plus why should I even Bother to come close. FOr the same reason I have Bought AWACs to get areial Picture. Gone are Days of Bahadri and Jazba.

In any Aircombat In past 20 years, starting Gulf WAR -1..... I have not come of Any instance when Aggresors have left BVR edge and jumped to WVR combat.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

For dominant ADF's. BVR it is all the way---the WVR missiles are there because of the left over space. As no major air wars have been fought to finally make the decision what it would be---.

The U S is not going to make the mistake of putting its 200 milion F22 and pitch it against a 50 million plane for a WVR strike. WVR is not going to die just like that----. A war between two major air forces will decide its fate.


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## FNFAL

WVR cannot be written off.
No BVR missile guarantees a kill. In a fast converging head on confrontation with two equally matched foes, the same can quickly turn into a WVR combat. Factor in that most decent aircrafts have reduced RCS with jamming, the detection range will be reduced and gaining a "lock" will be reduced, even if missiles were to home in on the jamming source The edge would be the guy with a better radar and higher standoff distance missile. And that is why we see agile missile increasing their ranges. And remember not always would AWACS be available.
And when the push comes to shove , pilots would prefer to take out his foe with a capable WVR instead of getting sucked in a gun fight.


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## notorious_eagle

Munir said:


> I do not think there is operational hms in PAF.





Alphacharlie said:


> Wow such Enthusiam....
> 
> But History will not given you chance again to rewrite History.
> 
> Nor will History be Botherered about High Sortie rate of PAF Mirages.
> 
> Nor will History be Bothered about IAF 2a/c losses. At the end -Victor takes *it* all.
> 
> *History is written with fact they PA chaps were desimated by IAF carpet Bombing & PAF was doing Nothing.*



Carpet bombing within their territory, please make a distinction of that.

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## Storm Force

At Master Khan

Re your Post


> If it gets within WVR that would mean that IAF pilots had very poor training---secondly the whole and sole reason for owning the SU 30 was negated ---those 8-10 BVR's that the su carries---just got neutralized---and the massive advantage that the su30 had was lost.


 

You forgat at WVR the SU30MKI is the best fighter in South Asia.

TVC engines gives the flankers massive advantages in extreme AOA that are not possible on any other fighter including F16.
in a WVR dogfight the Flanker will win evey time. against anything PAF has.

Having said that IAF will avoid WVR and try to the JOB from BVR avoid both pilot and plane lossess.

SU-30MKI vs Block 50/52 F-16C/D

Has the guy state

Flanker v F16/52 in a DOG FIGHT the flanker with TVC+hms+ R73 WVR missles will win


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## Bratva

Storm Force said:


> At Master Khan
> 
> Re your Post
> 
> 
> You forgat at WVR the SU30MKI is the best fighter in South Asia.
> 
> TVC engines gives the flankers massive advantages in extreme AOA that are not possible on any other fighter including F16.
> in a WVR dogfight the Flanker will win evey time. against anything PAF has.
> 
> Having said that IAF will avoid WVR and try to the JOB from BVR avoid both pilot and plane lossess.
> 
> SU-30MKI vs Block 50/52 F-16C/D
> 
> Has the guy state
> 
> Flanker v F16/52 in a DOG FIGHT the flanker with TVC+hms+ R73 WVR missles will win



Holy mother of flanker with TVC+hms+ R73 WVR missles..... F-16 with it's JHMCS would be sitting duck for SU-30 

For reference watch dog fighting video b/w Euro fighter and F-16's

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## MastanKhan

Storm Force said:


> At Master Khan
> 
> Re your Post
> 
> 
> You forgat at WVR the SU30MKI is the best fighter in South Asia.
> 
> TVC engines gives the flankers massive advantages in extreme AOA that are not possible on any other fighter including F16.
> in a WVR dogfight the Flanker will win evey time. against anything PAF has.


 
Sir,

8 BVR's is the reason that SU 30 was built----a BVR truck---the thrust vectoring is its weakest link and that will be the cause of its demise----.

You need to answer one question that I have asked every indian poster and never got an answer---at what speed would the pilot use ' thrust vectoring ' in actual combat-----he cannot use it at 500 knots---he cannot use it at 350 knots either----so tell me the speed and tell me what kind of G forces he is going to experience----.

In the air shows---these planes are going the cobra at barely above the stall speed---possibly around 100 knots or less----.

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## Nishan-101

But the time is telling that PAC should be producing 300 of the JF-17s Block-II and Block-IIIs to replace the existing Mirages and F-7s along with 100 Dual seat JF-17s for LIFT.


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## aliyusuf

Whoa ... why don't you throw in a couple of hundred sea thunders to secure our territorial waters ... for good measure.
I like him, he's funny!


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> 8 BVR's is the reason that SU 30 was built----a BVR truck---the thrust vectoring is its weakest link and that will be the cause of its demise----.
> 
> You need to answer one question that I have asked every indian poster and never got an answer---at what speed would the pilot use ' thrust vectoring ' in actual combat-----he cannot use it at 500 knots---he cannot use it at 350 knots either----so tell me the speed and tell me what kind of G forces he is going to experience----.
> 
> In the air shows---these planes are going the cobra at barely above the stall speed---possibly around 100 knots or less----.



The true usefullness of the TVC remains best for last ditch manoeuvres. IAF displays with the Su-30MKI did not involve TVC .. the aircraft is fairly manoeuvrable already. When used, the TVC literally drops the aircraft like a brick which in anything other than a 1vs1 fight is inviting certain death.



Munir said:


> I do not think there is *operational hms *in PAF. They will rather invest in jf17 then upgrade some p or pg. Jf17 b 3 will be the first with Hms.



I would not be so sure.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> The true usefullness of the TVC remains best for last ditch manoeuvres. IAF displays with the Su-30MKI did not involve TVC .. the aircraft is fairly manoeuvrable already. When used, the TVC literally drops the aircraft like a brick which in anything other than a 1vs1 fight is inviting certain death.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not be so sure.


 
Hi,

You know why the TCV is done at extremely slow speed and mostly in air shows---because at higher speeds the G forces the pilot may black out and pass out---his harness can break off thus slamming him into the instrumentation---the aircraft may suffer catastrophic damage---and you know that slow speed is death to an aircraft.


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## Munir

Oscar said:


> The true usefullness of the TVC remains best for last ditch manoeuvres. IAF displays with the Su-30MKI did not involve TVC .. the aircraft is fairly manoeuvrable already. When used, the TVC literally drops the aircraft like a brick which in anything other than a 1vs1 fight is inviting certain death.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not be so sure.



Non us there is none. F16... We have seen it more then once. But i am not that focussed on us products... But tell me... Hms without aim 9x is like egyptian f16 without bvr... 



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You know why the TCV is done at extremely slow speed and mostly in air shows---because at higher speeds the G forces the pilot may black out and pass out---his harness can break off thus slamming him into the instrumentation---the aircraft may suffer catastrophic damage---and you know that slow speed is death to an aircraft.



there is advantage in pushing the plane beyond normal flight envelope during take of or air combat. And indeed it adds DRAG. But do not forget the extra weight, maintenance or ir/rcs... And with better and better wvr weapons there is little left to go for tvc


----------



## aliyusuf

What advantages can an HMS provide if there is no HOBS capable AAM to utilize it?


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## Munir

Storm Force said:


> At Master Khan
> 
> Re your Post
> 
> 
> You forgat at WVR the SU30MKI is the best fighter in South Asia.
> 
> TVC engines gives the flankers massive advantages in extreme AOA that are not possible on any other fighter including F16.
> in a WVR dogfight the Flanker will win evey time. against anything PAF has.
> 
> Having said that IAF will avoid WVR and try to the JOB from BVR avoid both pilot and plane lossess.
> 
> SU-30MKI vs Block 50/52 F-16C/D
> 
> Has the guy state
> 
> Flanker v F16/52 in a DOG FIGHT the flanker with TVC+hms+ R73 WVR missles will win



Flanker with tvc is still huge target. For everyone. And would you go into wvr with that size? I don't think so my friend. Using tvc is bleeding energy. That is against all laws at the moment

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## SQ8

Munir said:


> Non us there is none. F16... We have seen it more then once. But i am not that focussed on us products... But tell me... Hms without aim 9x is like egyptian f16 without bvr...



I am not referring to the F-16. 
Regardless, you seem to have a lot of sources.. maybe you'll find out.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You know why the TCV is done at extremely slow speed and mostly in air shows---because at higher speeds the G forces the pilot may black out and pass out---his harness can break off thus slamming him into the instrumentation---the aircraft may suffer catastrophic damage---and you know that slow speed is death to an aircraft.



Not exactly, TVC also has a lot of usefulness at supersonic speeds as it can aid manoeuvring. Specifically for Stealth aircraft like the F-22 , it can allow for changes in attitude without the aircraft moving its control surfaces and compromising RCS.
It can also aid in supersonic manoeuvring if the controls are less than effective in executing a turn. 

Also,TVC applications are different in different aircraft. The Su-30MKI for e.g. has a "fake" 3D system whereby its nozzles while moving in two dimensions are manipulated by the FCS in such a way that they act in three axis. This does mean however that its thrust is complexity off its flight path when its TVC goes active which also contributes to drag.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Not exactly, TVC also has a lot of usefulness at supersonic speeds as it can aid manoeuvring. Specifically for Stealth aircraft like the F-22 , it can allow for changes in attitude without the aircraft moving its control surfaces and compromising RCS.
> It can also aid in supersonic manoeuvring if the controls are less than effective in executing a turn.
> 
> Also,TVC applications are different in different aircraft. The Su-30MKI for e.g. has a "fake" 3D system whereby its nozzles while moving in two dimensions are manipulated by the FCS in such a way that they act in three axis. This does mean however that its thrust is complexity off its flight path when its TVC goes active which also contributes to drag.


 

Hi,

I meant to say the fabled 'Cobra' maneavuer.


----------



## Basel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> If it gets within WVR that would mean that IAF pilots had very poor training---secondly the whole and sole reason for owning the SU 30 was negated ---those 8-10 BVR's that the su carries---just got neutralized---and the massive advantage that the su30 had was lost.
> I would be at a loss to understand as to why iaf would want to give away its advantage---if BVR was the advantage that PAF---would it want to lose it at the very first oppurtunity---. PAF pilots have been trained hard to use the assets and strengths of their aircrafts to get an upper hand.
> As for as paf no show at kargil---they actually had nothing to show up with---f16's could harldy fly 3 to 4 days in full conflict---,



Your point is valid that Su-30s were inducted for BVR first and then WVR second, they were meant to stay within Indian border launch salvos and return if they are supporting Mig-29 / Mirage / Jags but after induction of AWACS on Pakistani side their surprise element has lost and PAF will knew where they are and remember F-7s are point defense fighters they will only be launched when enemy will be very close to borders and IAF also knows that.

PAF have definitely devised strategy to counter that threat, to me Mig-29s close to border are more threat than Su-30s, because they have been upgraded and now can carry more fuel and more nimble then Su-30s. If Su-30 crossed into our airspace in any near furture pre PAK-FA, Rafael conflict, then it means that IAF is not confident enough against PAF, now because their majority front line fighter force is equal or more advance then our F-16, we don't have any fighter jet which have sensor fusion available that is going to be available to IAF and in number of fighter variants, which will allow them to use Su-30 only when need not regularly.


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## Munir

Oscar said:


> I am not referring to the F-16.
> Regardless, you seem to have a lot of sources.. maybe you'll find out.



I cannot disclose everything. So till then we definately have no hms (f16 excluded).



Oscar said:


> Not exactly, TVC also has a lot of usefulness at supersonic speeds as it can aid manoeuvring. Specifically for Stealth aircraft like the F-22 , it can allow for changes in attitude without the aircraft moving its control surfaces and compromising RCS.
> It can also aid in supersonic manoeuvring if the controls are less than effective in executing a turn.
> 
> Also,TVC applications are different in different aircraft. The Su-30MKI for e.g. has a "fake" 3D system whereby its nozzles while moving in two dimensions are manipulated by the FCS in such a way that they act in three axis. This does mean however that its thrust is complexity off its flight path when its TVC goes active which also contributes to drag.


Sir, you are correct but if one pushes the aircraft into only tvc controlled flight the whole plane starts to add drag. And kinetic energy is almost always more important then changing nose position.

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## SQ8

Munir said:


> I cannot disclose everything. So till then we definately have no hms (f16 excluded).
> 
> 
> Sir, you are correct but if one pushes the aircraft into only tvc controlled flight the whole plane starts to add drag. And kinetic energy is almost always more important then changing nose position.



The first point ill agree with  till disclosure changes for the both of us.

The second is a little more fluid as the idea of TVC alone for low observable aircraft has been mooted for quite a while. All control surfaces add drag(_most changes in direction will cause airflow disruption to different extents_) .. but the most damage is caused when TVC is used to force an AoA beyond stall(which can actually occur at any airspeed, just the AoA differs depending) or what is post stall manoeuvring. 

Long story short, the American and not the Russians were really the first to truly push the idea of TVC.. yet at the end of the day they decided that its actual benefits in modern combat are just not worth the extra weight and cost...and this was back in the early 90's when the JSF requirement was being finalized. The AIM-9x, IRIS-T, ASRAAM and other HOBS and high agility missiles were just on the horizon.. and then the higher Pk of more mature BVR systems came into play and with it the effectiveness(or rather the margin of advantage) of TVC went down further.

TVC is still a great plus as it does give a pilot a greater range of options to use within combat. But many of these options have a very limited window and especially not in the speed area where most fighter combat occurs. The F-22 is deadly not because it has TVC.. but because its aerodynamics are already so superior that it gains and retains energy in a fight rapidly. The TVC just adds on to what it has. The same goes for the MKI, its already a VERY good airframe with excellent aerodynamics.. but whether it truly needed the TVC or not is debatable.

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## Informant

Oscar said:


> *The first point ill agree with  till disclosure changes for the both of us.*
> 
> The second is a little more fluid as the idea of TVC alone for low observable aircraft has been mooted for quite a while. All control surfaces add drag(_most changes in direction will cause airflow disruption to different extents_) .. but the most damage is caused when TVC is used to force an AoA beyond stall(which can actually occur at any airspeed, just the AoA differs depending) or what is post stall manoeuvring.
> 
> Long story short, the American and not the Russians were really the first to truly push the idea of TVC.. yet at the end of the day they decided that its actual benefits in modern combat are just not worth the extra weight and cost...and this was back in the early 90's when the JSF requirement was being finalized. The AIM-9x, IRIS-T, ASRAAM and other HOBS and high agility missiles were just on the horizon.. and then the higher Pk of more mature BVR systems came into play and with it the effectiveness(or rather the margin of advantage) of TVC went down further.
> 
> TVC is still a great plus as it does give a pilot a greater range of options to use within combat. But many of these options have a very limited window and especially not in the speed area where most fighter combat occurs. The F-22 is deadly not because it has TVC.. but because its aerodynamics are already so superior that it gains and retains energy in a fight rapidly. The TVC just adds on to what it has. The same goes for the MKI, its already a VERY good airframe with excellent aerodynamics.. but whether it truly needed the TVC or not is debatable.



You are a leaky ship


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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> The first point ill agree with  till disclosure changes for the both of us.
> 
> The second is a little more fluid as the idea of TVC alone for low observable aircraft has been mooted for quite a while. All control surfaces add drag(_most changes in direction will cause airflow disruption to different extents_) .. but the most damage is caused when TVC is used to force an AoA beyond stall(which can actually occur at any airspeed, just the AoA differs depending) or what is post stall manoeuvring.
> 
> .


 
Hi,

Please share a little more detail in what you are saying. Thank you.


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## Munir

As far as i know there is NO hms system operational other then f16. But i was nut surpised to see 4 bvr on the Pg. Just like 4 bvr on jf17. Where PAF never released pictures up close from armed planes it suddenly rains secrets.


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## aliyusuf

Munir said:


> As far as i know there is NO hms system operational other then f16. But i was nut surpised to see 4 bvr on the Pg. Just like 4 bvr on jf17. Where PAF never released pictures up close from armed planes it suddenly rains secrets.



May I dare to ask what are the advantages of a helmet mounted sight, if there are no HOBS capable AAM to utilize it with?


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## Munir

One can concentrate on other things then looking at avionics. Besides that aim9l is pretty decent weapon just like pl5e. Even in bvr mode one can look around and get a good situational awarenessssss


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## SQ8

Informant said:


> You are a leaky ship





Munir said:


> As far as i know there is NO hms system operational other then f16. But i was nut surpised to see 4 bvr on the Pg. Just like 4 bvr on jf17. Where PAF never released pictures up close from armed planes it suddenly rains secrets.



I know that the JF-17 has no HMS yet.. but there is a HMS system operational within the PAF with a (under testing??)missile that is most likely IIR since it "sees" the aircraft much like below and knows what is flare and what not.






But then, that is the quagmire of the PAF. You ask them directly,you'll think they are stuck in the 80s..
stroll around casually and ask indirect questions.. and they'll directly tell you what is up.

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## Informant

Oscar said:


> I know that the JF-17 has no HMS yet.. but there is a HMS system operational within the PAF with a (under testing??)missile that is most likely IIR since it "sees" the aircraft much like below and knows what is flare and what not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But then, that is the quagmire of the PAF. You ask them directly,you'll think they are stuck in the 80s..
> stroll around casually and ask indirect questions.. and they'll directly tell you what is up.



Still issues with swaying the supplier.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please share a little more detail in what you are saying. Thank you.



Any disruption(control surface here) over the surface of a smooth fluid foil causes the airflow to be disrupted and creates drag. 
Additionally, the movement of a control surface from its flush(neutral) position on a Low observable body will create a change in its reflectivity and increase its RCS. 

What TVC allows is the ability to keep the airframe completely smooth(no RCS changes or surface breaks) by using thrust direction to point the aircraft. This ability is very useful for a stealth airframe to make flight path changes without exposing itself through the movement of its control surfaces.



Informant said:


> Still issues with swaying the supplier.



Well, its not for the F-16 anyway. So the swaying may be or not be swinging or swaying at all.

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## Informant

Oscar said:


> Any disruption(control surface here) over the surface of a smooth fluid foil causes the airflow to be disrupted and creates drag.
> Additionally, the movement of a control surface from its flush(neutral) position on a Low observable body will create a change in its reflectivity and increase its RCS.
> 
> What TVC allows is the ability to keep the airframe completely smooth(no RCS changes or surface breaks) by using thrust direction to point the aircraft. This ability is very useful for a stealth airframe to make flight path changes without exposing itself through the movement of its control surfaces.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, its not for the F-16 anyway. So the swaying may be or not be swinging or swaying at all.



We are not getting the 9-X.


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## Munir

Oscar said:


> I know that the JF-17 has no HMS yet.. but there is a HMS system operational within the PAF with a (under testing??)missile that is most likely IIR since it "sees" the aircraft much like below and knows what is flare and what not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But then, that is the quagmire of the PAF. You ask them directly,you'll think they are stuck in the 80s..
> stroll around casually and ask indirect questions.. and they'll directly tell you what is up.



If true we would have not bought brazilian wvr older versions. Neother are we able to pass producers like france, germany or china.


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## Donatello

Munir said:


> If true we would have not bought brazilian wvr older versions. Neother are we able to pass producers like france, germany or china.



Perhaps diversifying? China cannot provide everything, not at this stage yet, plus France and Germany wouldn't sell their latest, other than maybe some joint venture on IR seeker technology.


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## Munir

We have copied matra magic in the past. That good that the french did not see the difference but i doubt we can get such seekers that easy anywhere.


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## Kompromat

Munir said:


> We have copied matra magic in the past. That good that the french did not see the difference but i doubt we can get such seekers that easy anywhere.



We need to work on the front of developing our own WVRAAM and BVRAAMs in the long run through JVs with states like China, Brazil and S.Africa.

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## Zarvan

Aeronaut said:


> We need to work on the front of developing our own WVRAAM and BVRAAMs in the long run through JVs with states like China, Brazil and S.Africa.


What I have noticed many countries who themselves don't have really strong Armed Forces have really huge and good defence industries and they are making money buy selling lot of weapons


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## araz

Aeronaut said:


> We need to work on the front of developing our own WVRAAM and BVRAAMs in the long run through JVs with states like China, Brazil and S.Africa.


Aero
you have been corrupted by nishan.. But I see your point in that the basic component should be built in house but the seekers could perhaps be acquired/ bought from st else where. 
araz

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## Kompromat

araz said:


> Aero
> you have been corrupted by nishan.. But I see your point in that the basic component should be built in house but the seekers could perhaps be acquired/ bought from st else where.
> araz



Sir it all boils down to the availability of money and partners. If we had forthcoming investment, we could've joined with Brazil, S.Africa in their air to air missile programs. 

Pakistan must focus to build mushroom industries for developing sub systems, avionics, climatic equipment and other support industries. 

We should learn from Israel.

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## nomi007



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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Any disruption(control surface here) over the surface of a smooth fluid foil causes the airflow to be disrupted and creates drag.
> Additionally, the movement of a control surface from its flush(neutral) position on a Low observable body will create a change in its reflectivity and increase its RCS.
> 
> What TVC allows is the ability to keep the airframe completely smooth(no RCS changes or surface breaks) by using thrust direction to point the aircraft. This ability is very useful for a stealth airframe to make flight path changes without exposing itself through the movement of its control surfaces.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, its not for the F-16 anyway. So the swaying may be or not be swinging or swaying at all.


 

Hi,

The first time a harrier jump jet pilot during the falkland wars---being chased by and A to A missile changed the angle of exhaust on his engines----. The plane abruptly changed angles and the missiles missed---but in doing so----due to the G forces----the seat harness broke and the pilot got smashed into the front panel----he passed out momentarily---regained consciousness and landed his plane ( this story may have changed over the years ).

With this example in front of them---the british came up with a better harness and and a better game plan to use the thrust vectoring on the harrier.

My whole and sole interest in TVC is to know what is a safe speed for a pilot to perform this acrobatic trick----doing a cobra---or flipping back 180 deg-----letting off a shot and going back to the original position.

As tightly as the pilot may have fastened his seat belts----his stomach---liver---heart---blood---eye balls are all moving forward at an X speed---with a sudden change in direction---all these organs and fluids are still moving forward---even though they are contained within the body---and this phenom causes blackouts / redouts / permanent blackout / popping of blood vessels etc etc etc---.

Can a Su 30 do this reverse maneavour while flying at 350 knots forward speed---make a 180 flip---launch a missile and flip 180 back without damaging the aircraft or killing the pilot in the process.

Supermaneuverability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The above link clearly mentions the cobra at barely over the stall speed---and that is what I expected it to be---laws of physics don't change for my indian colleagues just becuse they have invested billions in this aircraft---.

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## Munir

I think people overrate TVC. As long as we have pilots flying the plane we have limits. And even in those limits you need to strengthen the whole jet to cope with the forces cause these are extraordinary even at low or normal speeds. Better invest in sensors, BVR and WVR.

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## nomi007

Birdhits are always considered to be one of the big threats to fighters, each year a number of our pilots risk their lives because of small mistakes done by our ignorant people.
Please DONT THROW GARBAGE and WASTE PARTS OF MEAT NEAR RUNWAYS.
A small mistake of you can cause loss of precious lives and national asset as well

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## M.AsfandYar

nomi007 said:


> Birdhits are always considered to be one of the big threats to fighters, each year a number of our pilots risk their lives because of small mistakes done by our ignorant people.
> Please DONT THROW GARBAGE and WASTE PARTS OF MEAT NEAR RUNWAYS.
> A small mistake of you can cause loss of precious lives and national asset as well
> View attachment 27897


That sunset is beautiful.


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## nomi007

Assailiant said:


> That sunset is beautiful.


right
but black crows are more dangerous


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## Luftwaffe

nomi007 said:


> Birdhits are always considered to be one of the big threats to fighters, each year a number of our pilots risk their lives because of small mistakes done by our ignorant people.
> Please DONT THROW GARBAGE and WASTE PARTS OF MEAT NEAR RUNWAYS.
> A small mistake of you can cause loss of precious lives and national asset as well
> View attachment 27897



@Aeronaut, @WebMaster could this image be edited remove crows and make it part of PDF main page like timeline.

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## nomi007

Luftwaffe said:


> @Aeronaut, @WebMaster could this image be edited remove crows and make it part of PDF main page like timeline.


give positive rating


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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> @Aeronaut, @WebMaster could this image be edited remove crows and make it part of PDF main page like timeline.



if it was a PG it would have been great with a full load

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## nomi007

F-7PG - 20 Sqn armed with AIM-9L sidewinder for training mission.



*kill shot*

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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 11513


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## nomi007

Vintage F-7Ps of the Pakistan Air Force in desert camouflage scheme. I wish they brought them back, they look so cool

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

No.27 Sqn 'Zarrars' Mirage-IIIDP being refuel in mid-air. This unit is tasked with tactical night attack role, which is performed by using Night Vision Goggles (NVG) and Forward Looking Infra-red (FLIR) capability (visible under aircraft's radome).

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## nomi007

* A-5 being loaded with HAFR-2 anti-runway bombs......*

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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> * A-5 being loaded with HAFR-2 anti-runway bombs......*


How old is this pic? and any specs of Hafar2?


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## nomi007

Abu Nasar said:


> How old is this pic? and any specs of Hafar2?



HAFR-1, HAFR-2 and RPB-1 anti-runway weapons[(possibly variants of the Matra Durandal)


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## nomi007



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## fatman17

Abu Nasar said:


> How old is this pic? and any specs of Hafar2?



it has to be old as the A5 is decommissioned.

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## nomi007



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## Indus Falcon

fatman17 said:


> it has to be old as the A5 is decommissioned.


I think Hafar series has been decommissioned as well. I remember seeing a 60km+ stand off missile in its place back in '11


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## nomi007

banner shooting exercise

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## nomi007




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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

nomi007 said:


> Vintage F-7Ps of the Pakistan Air Force in C scheme. I wish they brought them back, they look so cool


 

This is one sick scheme


----------



## Windjammer

*PAF's very first Mirage-3EP, 101 ''Baba'' captured during Highmark-96, sadly it was lost in 2007 during a night sortie after 40 years of faithful service!*

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## Basel

Why PAF have not opted for retractable refueling Pod for Mirages / F-7s (a picture below) like harriers had? it may have allowed more safety during refueling and better view for Pilots.






here is another pic of Harrier refueling in mid air, look how its retractable pod works, it looks nice and much safer.

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## fatman17

F-7PG

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## Khaqan Humayun

*What happened to Marage in Karachi???
I relay want to know the cause of accident. *


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## fatman17

Khaqan Humayun said:


> *What happened to Marage in Karachi???
> I relay want to know the cause of accident. *


 
wait for PAF report i guess.


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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## fatman17



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## nomi007




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## Danish saleem

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 33693
> F-7PG


I think this is first Pic of F7Pg carrying 4 Aim-7 Missiles.


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## nomi007

BEST INFO FOR THIS THREAD

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## nomi007

Muzakraat khatam, Suhaagraat shuru

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## fatman17

Mirage IIIEE PAF


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## nomi007

No.7 Sqn Mirage-IIIDP equipped with in-flight refueling probe.



302 of paf

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## fatman17

ex-RAAF Mirage in PAF

After their retirement from service in 1987/88 forty eight RAAF Mirages were flown to Woomera for storage. They were offered for sale for A$100 million. On 15th April 1990 a contract was signed with Pakistan for fifty aircraft including ground equipment, engines, drop tanks and spares. (Pakistan Air Force project Blue Flash-V) The figure reported here was A$36 million however a number of Pakistani sources state the figure was A$27 million with the payment spread over seven years at approx. A$3.5 million per year. The ground equipment and spares package has been described as "a virtual gift". It should be mentioned that India was not at all happy with this deal and protested accordingly.

During November 1990 the Mirages were transported by road from Woomera to Whyalla. Two complete aircraft stored at Point Cook (A3-13 and A3-84) were also transported as well as five incomplete examples from Darwin, Orchard Hills and Dubbo. They were shipped by sea from Whyalla to Karachi. From Karachi harbour they were transported on trailers to PAF Base Masroor. After some dismantling they were flown by C-130 Hercules to the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra.

There at the Mirage Rebuild Factory it was discovered that these ex-RAAF Mirages were in far better condition than expected and some did not require a complete overhaul. A new 2P+ inspection was developed for the initial recovery of thirty three aircraft. Another twelve aircraft had the General Overhaul and were eventually bought into service, some fitted with zero timed wings sourced from South Africa. 
Of the fifty ex-RAAF Mirages acquired forty five eventually entered PAF service (details below). The remaining five were used for spares.

Thirty two single seat aircraft were later upgraded to ROSE 1 (Retrofit of Strike Element) the last one completed in June 1998. This avionics upgrade included Sagem integrated navigation/attack system, multifunction display, HOTAS, HUD, and self protection systems (RWR, chaff and flares). 
Further upgrades include Grifo-M radar and AIM-9L AAMs.
(Sources differ as to if 32 or 33 received the ROSE 1 upgrade. I believe that only 32 received the upgrade because one aircraft crashed before it could be upgraded).
The ROSE 1 Mirages (redesignated in PAF service as Mirage IIIEA) were allocated to No.7 Squadron (Bandits) at Masroor in 1996 and to the Combat Commanders School (CCS) at Mushaf in 2003

Seven dual seat aircraft (redesignated in PAF service as Mirage IIIDA) were allocated to No.22 Squadron OCU and No.5 Squadron (Falcons). In June 2010 No.5 Squadron re-equipped with F-16s, the same aircraft that New Zealand was to buy.

The PAF also acquired the RAAF Mirage Photo Reconnaissance equipment and four aircraft configured in this role served with No.5 Squadron (Falcons)
In 2004 and 2007 Pakistan acquired 50 Mirages and 150 sealed engines from Libya. These aircraft will be converted to components to extend the life of the PAF Mirage fleet including the ex-RAAF examples.

In 2009 the Mirage IIIEAs started to be equipped with an in-flight refuelling probe, 90-583 serving as the prototype. PAF acquired four Ilyushin Il-78P Midas tanker aircraft from Ukraine and plan to equip 30 Mirages for in-flight refuelling


There have been many losses of PAF Mirages. The list isn't all that specific about which model was involved. Only two are confirmed as ex-RAAF with only one identified. There are probably others lost.
With the Pakistan being the world's largest current user of Mirages (200+ aircraft purchased from France, Australia, Lebanon, Spain and Libya), holding an extensive spare parts inventory and operating a dedicated Mirage Rebuild Factory the ex RAAF Dassault and GAF built Mirages look like they will still be flying well past their 50th birthdays. They are expected to remain in PAF service until replaced by the JF-17 Thunder in 5 to 10 years time


*SUMMARY*
50 complete aircraft exported by sea from Whyalla, South Australia
42 single seat Mirage IIIO;
40 stored at Woomera A3-2, -5, -6, -9, -10, -11, -12, -15, -17, -19, -21, -22, -23, -24, -25, -27, -31, -33, -34, -35, 
-38, -39, -49, -53, -54, -56, -60, -61, -65, -68, -71, -73, -81, -83, -86, -87, -88, -93, -96, -99
2 stored at Point Cook A3-13, -84
32 eventually upgraded to ROSE 1 standard, 1 crashed prior to ROSE 1 upgrade. 4 Photo Recon. conversions, 5 used for spares.
8 dualseat Mirage IIID;A3-101, -103, -104, -108, -110, -111, -112, -113.7 into service, 1 used for spares.

Also 5 incomplete aircraft/fuselages; A3-7 (Darwin), -48, -78 (Dubbo), -57, -91 (Orchard Hills)
*Pakistan Air Force serials.*
Single seat; 90-5xx, were xx is the last two digits of the RAAF serial. 
(I have been informed some may have had 89-5xx but haven't seen that myself)

Dual seat; Initially 90-6xx were xx was the last two digits of the RAAF serial (although some references have IIIDA serials as 67-6xx)
However at some stage changed to 90-8xx with the last two digits not matching any RAAF serial ie 90-860, -861, -874, -875, -876
As can be appreciated PAF information is scarce and the following list is derived from publicly available information. 
Any further information, corrections and comments are welcome. 
Please contact us at question@adf-serials.com.au

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## nomi007

Young pilots of No.19 OCU, Mianwali. Squadron is now relocated to Mushaf Sargodha

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## fatman17



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## Edevelop

F-7 in Skardu









nomi007 said:


> No.27 Sqn 'Zarrars' Mirage-IIIDP being refuel in mid-air. This unit is tasked with tactical night attack role, which is performed by using Night Vision Goggles (NVG) and Forward Looking Infra-red (FLIR) capability (visible under aircraft's radome).

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## fatman17

Mirage-III cockpit.





maiden delivery of 6 Mirage-III to Pakistan.

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## Bratva

Credits: Usman Shabbir- Some high-resolution shots taken at Samungli Air Base by a good friend. Original's were too large so had to resize. Enjoy and feel free to share with due credit to Mudy (Photographer) & PakDef. 






Alloutte at night







PG after the Rain






PG Formation over K2 while ferrying to China






PG pilots







PG trail during Landing at Night






PG Taxiing Out at Night






PG with Burners at Night

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## elitepilot09

Unbelievable.. Thanks for sharing.

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## fatman17

very nice...!!!

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## ghazi52

Thanks for sharing.


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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> Credits: Usman Shabbir- Some high-resolution shots taken at Samungli Air Base by a good friend. Original's were too large so had to resize. Enjoy and feel free to share with due credit to Mudy (Photographer) & PakDef.
> 
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> PG with Burners at Night



Wow! These are some sensational snaps!!!

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## fatman17

*F-7MG Flight Trials by Pakistan Air Force*

*By Air Cdre. (Retd) Kaiser Tufail *

_Gp Capt Kaiser Tufail and Wg Cdr Jamshed Khan were detailed to test fly the F-7MG (later known as F-7PG in PAF service) in July 1997. A total of 12 sorties were planned in which the complete flight regime was to be explored, with particular focus on the improvements in performance of the already in-service F-7P. A similar number of sorties were to be flown after a few months, when the GEC-Marconi Super Skyranger was ready.

Soon after arrival in Chengdu, the wet tropical weather of Southern China made it quite obvious that the flight trials would take longer than expected. Two other unusual challenges were the language barrier and the issue of finding enough airspace over non-populated areas. Chengdu is one of China’s largest metropolitan centres and is located in Sichuan Province, which happens to have the country’s densest population per acre. In such environments, supersonic flights as well as low-level max-Q trials left no room for area violation in the narrow sliver that had been allocated for flight trials. The pilots had also been told that their departure back home could be delayed in case the adjacent Chengdu International Airport were ever to lodge an air violation. The hint was well registered!

PAF’s evaluation was the first by a prospective foreign customer, although the aircraft had accumulated almost 10,000 hours in the PLAAF since its induction in late 1995. _

_*Major Improvements*

The F-7MG airframe has essentially the same F-7P fuselage, inner wing portion, tail plane and fin. The outer wing section incorporates the major change, with a reduced 42° sweep and automatic manoeuvring flaps. The F-7MG is powered with an improved and more powerful WP-13 engine, which is also operational on the F-7III (Chinese version of the MiG-21MF). Additionally, cockpit layout, avionics and several ancillary systems have been changed, in line with modern trends. The important systems that remain unchanged (compared to the F-7P) are the fuel system, weapons payload capacity and internal guns.

*Double Delta Wings*

Like the Su-15, the Draken J-35, as well as the more modern X-31 post-stall manoeuvring demonstrator, the F-7MG has a double-delta wing planform, which offers an excellent solution to a slender delta’s inherent low aspect ratio problem. The aspect ratio of conventional deltas is, at best, of the order of about 2.4, with the low end notched up, surprisingly, by India’s LCA; at 1.75 it stands behind the bat-winged double-delta Saab Draken, whose very low aspect ratio of 1.8 was considered to be a convenient remedy to the transonic CP shift, albeit at the expense of overall aerodynamic efficiency.

Wingtip stalling has never been an issue on the F-7P, but the double delta wing brings with it an added bonus in this respect. The strong vortex of the inner wing re-energises the boundary layer of the outer wing, preventing span-wise flow towards the tips. This allows even more-carefree manoeuvring at ultra-low speeds. _

_*Testing the Wings*

On the first take-off, it was evident that the aircraft was impatient to get off the ground and had to be held down to prevent it getting airborne prematurely. Compared to the F-7P’s take-off speed of 310 kph, the MG lifted off at 280 kph with ease and the advertised 35% improvement in take-off distance was on the mark. The sight of the auto-manoeuvring flaps at work reminded the pilots of the F-16’s computer-controlled leading edge devices. Packaging the servo motors and actuators within the thin leading edge without the tell-tale bulges has certainly been a marvel of engineering at Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC). 

The feel of the aircraft was smooth in all domains, none more so than in transonic flight. As expected, CP shift was minimal and both the test pilots were unanimous about the decrease in stick forces. Transonic being an important combat flight regime, this is a welcome improvement.

A good measure of a wing’s lifting efficiency is at high alpha, a regime that the PAF pilots have learnt to perform in almost as an art form. What better than to pace the MG through a slow speed loop? Normally, a safe entry speed for a loop would be between 800-900 kph (at 15,000 AMSL) on the F-7P. In the absence of any guidelines on a slower version of the manoeuvre, it was decided to try 700 kph at first. The MG went through smoothly without any hint of judder or slip at the top. With full faith in the leading edge flaps, the next loop was performed at 600 kph. Again, the same results were achieved and the aircraft went through a perfect loop without any jitter or judder. At lower altitudes it might do even slower and better, but airspace limitations at Chengdu did not permit low level aerobatics. _

_Several flights followed the first check of the aircraft’s aerodynamic efficiency. It was a most pleasant surprise to note that the turn rates were nearer to the F-16 at medium to high altitudes and, were exactly as advertised. A 33% improvement over the F-7P at 5,000’ AMSL, 50% at 10,000’ and 66% at 20,000 would certainly call for an end to the “supersonic sports plane” sobriquet that dogged its forerunners.

The results of the flight trials were so encouraging that the test pilots were tempted to simulate a flamed-out engine landing pattern, a not very ‘done’ thing on delta-winged fighters. While the Chinese manuals suggested a rectangular pattern that can put one’s judgement and nerves to test, the standard overhead spiral pattern was tried out initially from a high-key height of 15,000’ AGL. With engine idling and speed brakes out to simulate a dead engine, the aircraft glided much like the F-16, so after a few approaches, the high key height was lowered to12,000’ AGL. The sink rate was well under control and, in fact was so well manageable that all later sorties were terminated through practice dead-engine approaches. At 1:8.5, the glide ratio compares favourably with some of the modern Western fighters.

Landings on the F-7MG could be made at 270 kph, compared to about 290 kph on the F-7P. The test pilots felt that the speed could be lowered further, were it not for the length of the gear struts, which are not long enough to allow a higher nose attitude. Hydraulic brakes, though still hand-held (like those on a bicycle handle-bar), were very effective and, the unlimited braking facility was a welcome improvement over the bled-off pneumatics of the F-7P. _

_*New Engine*

The WP-13 engine of the F-7MG produces 1,200 lbs of more thrust than the F-7P’s WP-7, giving it a thrust-to-weight ratio of about .9 compared to .8 of the latter in clean take-off configuration. A 50% improvement in spool-up time is a welcome feature, particularly on final approach and landing where a sudden gust of wind has resulted in many a tail scrape on the F-7P. Go-arounds are also prompt and a bad landing is actually a thing of the past on the MG. Use of titanium alloys in compressor blades and an increased TBO are indicators of improvements in Chinese jet-engine technology.

The thrust increase was evidenced by a 25% improvement in acceleration time from 500 kph to 1100 kph and an equally impressive time-to-climb to 36,000’ AMSL. All improvements were verified and were found to be as advertised or even better. Even more remarkable was the fact that these trials took place in hot and humid weather, well outside the 15°C, 1013 hP environments in which the specifications are usually engineered.

*Miscellaneous Systems*

The F-7MG has several modern avionics upgrades. These include a Stores Management System, which is essentially a useful cockpit-pilot interface to help establish the status of stores including configuration, fusing and weapon codes etc. A voice warning system, colour video recorder, elaborate cockpit lighting and a more precise and jitter–free AOA probe are nice-to-have improvements. The colour EFIS includes two displays, one for the attitude and the other for the heading and navigation sub-systems like ADF, VOR, TACAN, ILS etc. 

The PAF pilots used to advanced cockpits like the F-16 were quick to point out several ergonomic improvements and had detailed discussions with CAC design bureau. Switchology changes and relocation of several instruments led to a much improved cockpit; it has been suggested in a lighter vein that a nomenclature change to F-7PG might just be in order. (‘G’ incidentally stands for ‘gai’, meaning ‘improved’ in Chinese.) _

_*Radar*

The F-7MG was originally designed to have the GEC-Marconi Super Skyranger. At the time of initial PAF trials the radar was not ready. Trials were held again several months later after the prototype radar was installed. In the event the radar did not come up to PAF specifications and GEC-Marconi was not able to surmount the problems associated with the small nose cone, including antenna size and equipment air-conditioning which was insufficient.

The PAF eventually retrofitted their F-7Ps and F-7PGs with the FIAR Grifo-7. To say that miniaturisation technology is at its best in this marvellous Italian radar would be an understatement. An excellent pulse Doppler radar with respectable ranges and a medium order azimuth and elevation scan, the system is married to the all-aspect AIM-9L Sidewinder, making it a lethal combination.

*FT-7PG*

CAC did not design a double-delta version of the F-7MG. On PAF’s request, the existing FT-7P cockpit was redesigned on lines of the PG to ensure standardisation and the resultant dual seater was re-designated FT-7PG. 

*Analysis*

The F-7MG has considerably improved subsonic and transonic flight performance. Coupled with excellent turning capability and acceleration, the combat potential is enhanced tremendously. The Grifo-7/AIM-9L combination on board PAF’s F-7PG brings the aircraft much closer to the F-16 in close combat capabilities and the PAF must be credited with extracting the maximum from an innovatively redesigned low-cost fighter. _

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## JonAsad

Bratva said:


> Credits: Usman Shabbir- Some high-resolution shots taken at Samungli Air Base by a good friend. Original's were too large so had to resize. Enjoy and feel free to share with due credit to Mudy (Photographer) & PakDef.
> 
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Bro you made my day- -
though some are blurry but are way way better than the usual old crappy ones that we get-


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## nomi007




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## Bratva

Credits: Usman Shabbir- Some high-resolution shots taken at Samungli Air Base by a good friend. Original's were too large so had to resize. Enjoy and feel free to share with due credit to Mudy (Photographer) & PakDef.

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## nomi007

PAF Mirage Rose-i upgraded fighters lineup. these fighters are equipped with Grifo M3 radar multi-mode pulse Doppler all weather fire control radar which has better air to air and air to ground performance.




PAC (Pakistan aeronautical complex) produced Grifo M3 radars under license from Italy.

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## nomi007

*FAMILY PHOTO 1967-2010*
* All Mirages in PAF : Mirage-III/V wallpaper comprising of all aircraft from Mirage squadrons in 2010.PAF has been operating Mirage aircraft since 1967 and is *

*the largest user of Mirage aircraft after French air force.*


*Echelon-1: Mirage-vPA (5 Sqn), Mirage-VEF (27 Sqn), Mirage-IIIEL (22 Sqn).*

*Echelon-2 : Mirage-VPA3 (8 Sqn), Mirage-VEF (25 Sqn), Mirage-IIIEA (7 Sqn), Mirage-IIIDP (15 Sqn) and Mirage-IIIEA (CCS)*






 Bandits at sea: *A No.7 Sqn Mirage-IIIEA formation flying over Arabin sea. No.7 Tactical Attack Sqn also conducts pre-CCS courses for Mirage-III aircraft.



*

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## nomi007

Streak of tigers:* A No.17 Sqn 'Tigers' F-7PG formation in a close formation. No.17 Sqn is tasked with Air Superiority role; particularly in South Western *
 
part of Pakistan. Tigers sqn has over 57 years of glorious service in PAF, over the years the unit has participated in two wars 

*and various national / multi-national exercises.



*

 Cheetahs F-7: *A No.20 Sqn F-7PG during a solo flight. All aircraft wear unit's name 'Cheetahs' along the top of the tail.



*
cheetah* apna sikhar akela he karta hai*

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

How do the F-7 / Mirage rate in term of agility and movement vs other Fighter Jets

Comparitive to more Large scale jets , it seems like F-7 would be more agile and offer great difficulty for large planes to go vs smaller agile platform 

It would be nice if there was a standard matrix that focued on agility aspect of the Jets and ranked them


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## fatman17

interesting colour scheme!!!

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 127027
> 
> interesting colour scheme!!!


Painted in Polish national flag colours something like the sceme one of our F-6 was given on retirement.

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## nangyale

Windjammer said:


> Painted in Polish national flag colours something like the sceme one of our F-6 was given on retirement.
> 
> View attachment 127138


Not Polish but Croatian national colours, I think.

The emblem on the tail is Croatian

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## ice_man

beautiful jets & have rendered great Service to our nation. 

However, time has come for them to retire and ride of into the setting Sun just like the F6s. 

Paksitan MUST think beyond these two fighters now.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The Jets still carry or are capable of carrying sufficient variety of weapons , which makes them useful
in Air Combat

Only reasonable retirement talk would have to come once we induct 150 J10B or J11 Fighters into Pakistani airforce







F-7 is a very nimble agile platform as well , the agility and nimbleness adds to dynamics in air vs Larger bulkier jets

This appears to be a good answer by User "Strongpa" which appears in inner pages


F-7 PG is a very economical solution right now for PAF.

It is a greatly improved F-7, some say the best variant of Mig-21 ever.

Here is the impression of Air Cdr Kaiser Tufail after he evaluated F-7 PG

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info


Evaluation showed that with respect to F-7P, F-7PG had a
35% imporvement in take-off distance
33% improvement in turn rate at 5000 feet
50% improvement in in turn rate at 10000 feet
66% improvement in turn rate at 20000 feet.
At least 25-33% reduction in the safe speed required for low speed loop...likely to be even better at lower altitudes.
In fact turn rate at med to high altitudes is close to F-16.
Lower speeds required for landing.
Glide ratio of 1:8.5 compares favorably with some modern fighters
50% improvement in spool up time
25% improvement in time for acceleration (500Km/h to 1100Km/h) and climb speed.

This article seems to agree that F-7PG's close combat capability is very close to that of F-16. In chinese simulations, it has also beaten SU-27 in close combat

F-7PG uses Grifo-7PG RADAR which has a little more range than the Grifo 7, plus some other technological advancements.

The F-7PG is capable of firing :

AIM-9P (Side Winders)
AIM-9L
PL-9C (Infra Red Homing Missiles)

PAF initially ordered 46 single seater and 9 trainers. They were so impressed with its capabilities that later they ordered another 11 single seaters

*Airforce Representative talks about the modifications on the plane direct from source*


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## N/A

Hi sorry to be a little off topic but my goal is to protect and serve Pakistan as a officer in the Pakistan air force as a GDP. Currently i live and study in the United States. I lived in the USA all my live, i am a Pakistani citizen. I am currently in high school, my grades are above average, my grades are 84-95 i take many advance classes. I am part of many sports teams and i am currently a class officer. After i graduate high school i will be getting my degree from a American College in Aerospace Engineering. After that what will i have to do to become a GDP as a officer in the Pakistan Air Force.


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## nomi007

،
ﺍﺱ ﭘﺎﮎ ﺩﮬﺮﺗﯽ ﮐﺎ ﻗﺮﺽ ﮬﮯ ﻣﺠﮫ
ﭘﺮ، ﺍﺱ ﮐﯽ ﺧﺎﻃﺮ ﻣﺮﻧﺎ ﮬﮯ۔ ﻭﮦ ﺟﻮ
ﺷﺐ ﮐﮯ ﺍﻧﺪﮬﯿﺮﮮ ﻣﯿﭩﮭﯽ ﻧﯿﻨﺪ ﺳﻮﺋﮯ
ﮬﯿﮟ، ﻭﮦ ﺑﭽﮯ ﺟﻮ ﭘﺮﺳﺘﺎﻥ ﮐﯽ ﺳﯿﺮ ﮐﻮ
ﻧﮑﻠﮯ ﮬﯿﮟ، ﺍﻥ ﺳﺐ ﮐﮯ ﺧﻮﺍﺑﻮﮞ ﮐﻮ
ﭨﻮﭨﻨﮯ ﺳﮯ ﺑﭽﺎﻧﺎ ﮬﮯ۔ﺍﻥ ﻟﻮﮔﻮﮞ ﮐﯽ
ﺑﮭﯽ ﺣﻔﺎﻇﺘﮑﺮﻧﯽ ﮬﮯ، ﺟﻮ ﺁﺯﺍﺩﯼ ﮐﻮ
ﺳﺴﺘﺎﺳﻤﺠﮭﮯ ﺑﯿﭩﮭﮯ ﮬﯿﮟ۔ ﺟﻨﮭﻮﮞ
ﻧﮯ ﮐﺒﮭﯽ ﻭﻃﻦ ﮐﯽ ﻣﭩﯽ ﮐﻮ ﻧﮩﯿﮟ
ﺳﻮﻧﮕﮭﺎﮐﮧ ﺍﺱ ﻣﯿﮟ ﺷﮩﺪﺍﺀ ﮐﮯ ﺧﻮﻥ
ﮐﯽ ﻣﮩﮏ ﮬﮯ۔ ﺩﻝ ﻣﯿﺮﺍ ﺑﮭﯽ ﮐﺮﺗﺎ ﮬﮯ
ﺟﯽ ﺑﮭﺮ ﮐﮯ ﺳﻮﻧﮯ ﮐﻮ، ﻣﮕﺮ ﺩﺷﻤﻦ
ﮐﯽ ﺑﻨﺪﻭﻕ ﮐﺎ ﺭﺥ ﻣﯿﺮﮮﻭﻃﻦ ﮐﯽ ﻃﺮﻑ
ﮬﮯ۔ ﻣﯿﮟ ﻧﮯ ﺍﭘﻨﮯ ﺳﯿﻨﮯ ﮐﻮ ﺍﺱ ﺭﺥ
ﭘﮭﯿﻼ ﺭﮐﮭﺎ ﮬﮯ۔ ﮐﯿﻮﻧﮑﮧ ﻣﯿﮟ ﺍﺱ
ﻭﻃﻦ ﮐﺎ ﺳﭙﺎﮬﯽ ﮬﻮﮞ --- !!!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Never hurts to have few 100 F-7PG up in air with sidewinder and other homing missiles 
Not to mention the new HUD display that aids in air combat

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## nomi007




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## nomi007

'Missing Man formation' led by F-7P of No.19 Sqn and F-16 aircraft marking end-of-service of F-7P aircraft in No.19 Sqn. The F-16 induction ceremony in the unit was held on 20-May-2014 at Mushaf AB, Sargodha.

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## hassan1

ps

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## nomi007



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## Basel

@nomi007 can't see image.


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## nomi007

Basel said:


> @nomi007 can't see image.

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## Shabi1

Bangladesh is inducting a further improved version of the F-7BG designated as F-7BGI, specs for it are hard to find but according to wikipedia it has 7 hardpoints and BVR capability. Ive even read on a Bangla forum that it has CFT (highly doubtful).

These specs are very speculative and I have my doubts but if such performance upgrades are possible I think PAF should consider since the F-7PG air frames are relatively new and will remain in service for a while. It might be dated but can serve as as good interceptor/point defense platform.





ImageShack Image Hosting Service


*F-7BG* 16 was delivered to Bangladesh in 2006 including with 4 two-seater *FT-7BG*. The capability to carry reconnaissance pods and operate the equipment inside the pods from the cockpit of earlier F-7MB is retained. Reported to use Grifo MG radar.[4]

*F-7BG1* Upgraded version for Bangladesh Air Force ordered in 2011. Based on J-7G, guided munition capable.
1) F-7 BGI has a speed of Mach 2.2 2) 7 Hard-points to carry Air to Air missiles, Laser guided bomb, GPS Guided Bombs, Drop tanks 3) Full glass cockpit. 4) can carry 3000 kg Bomb including Chinese Laser Guided Bombs. 5) F-7 BGI has KLJ-6F radar Fire control Radar with 86 km+ Range which is near BVR or BVR considering what is the silver lining between them and can track 6 and engage 2 enemy aircraft simultaneously. 6) F-7 BGI can carry C-704 Antiship Missiles (Therefore maritime also possible) 7) afterburner: F-7 BGI (82 kN) thrust 8) Missiles procurement are currently unknown for F-7 BGI but they can fire the 70-75 km range PL-12,PL-11 and also PL-2, PL-5, PL-7, PL-8, PL-9, Magic R.550 and AIM-9 . 9) F-7 BGI got J-7G2 Airframe with double delta wing. This improves the lift at high angles of attack and delays or prevents stalling. 10) G-limit: +8 g / -3 g 11) Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,420 ft) for F-7 BGI 12) 3 Multi functional HUD displays and Hotas. 13) Chinese Helmet Mounted Sights. 14) Reportedly more maneuverable than most of the Mig21s and many of the other contemporary fighters.


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## Najam Khan

Random photos...







CCS DACT
















JF-17 T&E Team, Kamra 2009

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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> Random photos...
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> JF-17 T&E Team, Kamra 2009



I cannot see these photos as they are posted, but when i quote and reply, i can see then. @WebMaster @Oscar

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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> I cannot see these photos as they are posted, but when i quote and reply, i can see then. @WebMaster @Oscar



Quickfix to avoid image links to sites showing images of brutality. Please read the notice above on the panels.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Quickfix to avoid image links to sites showing images of brutality. Please read the notice above on the panels.



Okay, but is it temporary? Because a lot of useful images are lost.


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## hassan1



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## nomi007

*No. 27 Squadron
male and female



*

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## jupiter2007

*Pakistan has 70+ planes (older Mirage and J-7P) that needs to replaced as soon as possible.*
Pakistan need to either acquire used F16s / Used Mirage 2000 or increase the production rate of Jf-17.


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## fatman17

jupiter2007 said:


> *Pakistan has 70+ planes (older Mirage and J-7P) that needs to replaced as soon as possible.*


 
thanks for letting us know....

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## nomi007

jupiter2007 said:


> *Pakistan has 70+ planes (older Mirage and J-7P) that needs to replaced as soon as possible.*


yr ap na batate to paf ko to pata he nai tha

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## black-hawk_101

Hi All,
Here we are going to discuss the capabilities of F-7Ps and F-7PGs in service with the PAF. Please share any good information regarding these planes as they are not flying machines but have good credibility over the skies.


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## Manticore

MiG-21s & F-7s
Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts | Page 30

2 threads already exist

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## rida.rwp

These aircrafts have to be retired and scrapped now


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## Shabi1

Has anyone noticed most of the crashes are around PAF Masroor & Jhang area. I know PAF Masroor has a major bird hit problem because of the surrounding area and authorities want to relocate it in future to avoid mishaps. So could it be that the crashes are because of the base proximity to population rather than the maintenance of the aircrafts. If that's the case then even newer aircraft stationed at these bases will have crashes as well as currently neither Thunders or F-16s operate from those areas.


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## hassan1



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If we manufactured the Avionics locally , and purchase some good quality Missiles , I think we can enhance these plane


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## WaLeEdK2

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> If we manufactured the Avionics locally , and purchase some good quality Missiles , I think we can enhance these plane



Nah we should just retire them. We gotta look to the future.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think for Local Private sector , it would be great experiment to allow the Private sector access to F7 and Mirage platform so they can develop some hands on experience rather then just melt the planes down

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## black-hawk_101

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think for Local Private sector , it would be great experiment to allow the Private sector access to F7 and Mirage platform so they can develop some hands on experience rather then just melt the planes down


Yes! Private sector can help convert older planes and Helicopters into Drones that will fly just once and put themselves or a target. Instead of decorating all over the country.

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## Najam Khan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *If we manufactured the Avionics locally *, and *purchase some good quality *Missiles , I think we can enhance these plane


ONLY IF we were in 1990s, when PAF was collecting Mirages from Australia/Libya etc.
There are no more plans to invest in these airframes. They should be replaced with Thunders by now.

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## Basel

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> If we manufactured the Avionics locally , and purchase some good quality Missiles , I think we can enhance these plane



Pakistan will keep F-7PGs even after retirement of all old jets as they are relatively newer ones, therefore they may need to be upgraded and Pakistan could add advance or new version of R-73s with HMS / HMD to enhance its combat capability as those are very good IR missiles with good range and tech, also advance Russian or Chinese radar can be added to allow SD-10 or R-77 as their BVR weapon.

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## nomi007

No.19 Sqn F-16 ADF flanked by CCS Mirages.
PAF is in process of equipping Mirages with Southafrican origin air-refueling probe, which shall improve endurance of these aircraft.

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## nomi007

CCS F-7 vs F-16 (9Sqn) - Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT).

- JF-17 shall replace F-7P in CCS by end-Dec-2014.

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## nomi007

*Grifo-7*

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## nomi007



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## OttoPyr

Hello,
I want to make a model of the Pakistani F-7MP, but can not understand how it looks. I collected some photos and ... did not understand! All aircraft in these photos have the differences. The photos show that Pakistan uses as minimum the three versions F-7 with a delta wing. I can show photos and explain what is the problem. 
Help please!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

OttoPyr said:


> Hello,
> I want to make a model of the Pakistani F-7MP, but can not understand how it looks. I collected some photos and ... did not understand! All aircraft in these photos have the differences. The photos show that Pakistan uses as minimum the three versions F-7 with a delta wing. I can show photos and explain what is the problem.
> Help please!













F-7P/PG Gallery : Pakistan Air Force Wallpapers

AIRCRAFTS OF PAKISTAN AIR FORCE: CURRENT AIRCRAFT – F7MP AIR GUARD / SKY BOLT (FIGHTER BOMBERS AND GROUND ATTACK AIRCRAFT)


I think all old versions- MPs have been phased out... so cant find new pics...

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## OttoPyr

Thank you, Desert Fighter!
But I think I need to show what is causing me questions. Here are some photos which I have noted only a few differences between the planes.














And all these planes are called F-7MP

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## syed_yusuf

i believe there were 60 7XX series of F-7MP ordered and ares still in use

i believe all 5XX series F-7MP/P are taken out of the service as they should be close to ~24 years old by now

As time goes on these planes are upgraded with chaff and flares and better eccm and comm equipment. nothing so drastic

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## Donatello

OttoPyr said:


> Thank you, Desert Fighter!
> But I think I need to show what is causing me questions. Here are some photos which I have noted only a few differences between the planes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And all these planes are called F-7MP



Some of the F-7MP were modified with some ECM.......and the antenna in the last picture is R&S one that is found on Mirage and JF-17 as well....allows communication with the network.

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## syed_yusuf

for the records

PAF got 20 F-7P in 87/88 later they were returned to be upgraded to F-7MP

in 89/90 - PAF received 40 F-7MP

all of the above are numbered 5XX

in early 90's PAF got 60 F-7MP numbered in 7XX

and then in early 2000's PAF got 55 F-7PG numbered 8XX

the most modern j-7 in PAF is F-7PG closely followed by F-7MP series 7XX

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## OttoPyr

So, if I understand correctly, all these planes are called F-7MP. But, those that in the first picture, it is the former F-7P modified up to F-7MP standard (20 pcs.). I guess even that spot under the cockpit (at 5XX) hides a number that the plane had been when the F-7P. In the second picture samples that were originally produced for the F-7MP standard (40 pcs.). In the third picture sample from the last series that closely unified with F-7PG (60 pcs.).


But I still have a question - as originally looked 20 F-7P before modification? Anybody can show pictures of F-7P? And yet, I see that the samples from the first and second photo are very different. So what changed the Chinese when Pakistan returned the first 20 aircraft? I look at these photos and I can not say that all three samples belong to one standard, namely the F-7MP. Sorry, but they differ too much. Can I call them as "F-7MP sample 1988", "F-7MP sample 1989" and "F-7MP sample of 1999"?


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## nomi007




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## Paksanity

OttoPyr said:


> Thank you, Desert Fighter!
> But I think I need to show what is causing me questions. Here are some photos which I have noted only a few differences between the planes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And all these planes are called F-7MP



Correct name is F-7P. The Chinese produced F-7M as export version of J-7. The export version customized for Pakistan is called F-7P. First batch was serial number 501-520. These aircraft have straight rudder line. Later aircraft were serial numbered 5xx and last batch is serial numbered 7xx. Cranked delta wing is F-7PG, derived from F-7MG which is chinese designation of export version. These are the newest in fleet with serial numbers 8xx. The dual seat versions are numbered 6xx.

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## OttoPyr

Okay, now I'm going to search for photos and a detailed description of the Chinese J-7M. Try to compare J-7M with the F-7P from the first photo


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## WarKa DaNG

The Mirages can carry Ra'ad ALCM, which will be used on large formations or on the Radar sites


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## Ind4Ever

Imran Khan said:


> f-7pgs are same as MIG-21 dude even f-7 has new air frame then MIGs and do you check the record of nig-21 crash rate? our f-7s are main interceptors on all over Pakistan . abut mirages you know some thing what shape they got after rose upgrade? they can fire cruse missiles ans BVRs with air refueling they are working horses bro. you underestimate them because they are old then you have to know f-7s are newer then our our f-16 and mirages 50 which we got from Libya they was brand new. there is much much power in these air crafts. yes they have to be replace but mirage rose and f-7pg will never grab as you think.you know who much they are 400 jets.just think again.


Bhai Jaan by now u must be 5 years older ?  So does F 7



nomi007 said:


> View attachment 187576


F35 ?


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## nomi007

Ind4Ever said:


> Bhai Jaan by now u must be 5 years older ?  So does F 7
> 
> 
> F35 ?


no its a-5


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## black-hawk_101

Najam Khan said:


> ONLY IF we were in 1990s, when PAF was collecting Mirages from Australia/Libya etc.
> There are no more plans to invest in these airframes. They should be replaced with Thunders by now.



Yes you are right. But I think PAF along with other military units should now focus on scraping up their old equipment and gaining money from these scraps and putting it to upgrade their facilities.


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## nomi007

A night-strike-Mirage from Zarrar's Sqn. The unit is also equipped with Stand-Off-Weapon and special sensors for night-time- interdiction role.

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## OttoPyr

nomi007,
In fact, Pakistan has had to modify all their fighters to one standard of electronics. Otherwise, they can not work together.

Returning to the theme of F-7P. I looked at the photo of the Chinese F-7M and found no differences from the aircraft to the first photo. Anyway external differences. Are you sure that Pakistan bought the first 20 F-7P? I read that the Chinese have provided 20 fighters to Pakistan for test. Because China had not a single instance of modern fighters and could not prove its military power of the F-7M. I want to say that I doubt that China has modified the first 20 fighters. Firstly, I did not find any external signs of modifications and, secondly, if you carefully examine the list of changes that demanded Pakistan, I see signs of these changes only in the second batch of fighters. Pakistan can be bought (or whether they were provided free of charge by China), the first 20 fighters to hold a test of flight characteristics, and then making sure that the aircraft have a flight characteristics are comparable with other aircraft, developed the standard of armament, which was implemented in the second batch of fighters? And the name of the F-7P is only business name.


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## Paksanity

OttoPyr said:


> nomi007,
> In fact, Pakistan has had to modify all their fighters to one standard of electronics. Otherwise, they can not work together.
> 
> Returning to the theme of F-7P. I looked at the photo of the Chinese F-7M and found no differences from the aircraft to the first photo. Anyway external differences. Are you sure that Pakistan bought the first 20 F-7P? I read that the Chinese have provided 20 fighters to Pakistan for test. Because China had not a single instance of modern fighters and could not prove its military power of the F-7M. I want to say that I doubt that China has modified the first 20 fighters. Firstly, I did not find any external signs of modifications and, secondly, if you carefully examine the list of changes that demanded Pakistan, I see signs of these changes only in the second batch of fighters. Pakistan can be bought (or whether they were provided free of charge by China), the first 20 fighters to hold a test of flight characteristics, and then making sure that the aircraft have a flight characteristics are comparable with other aircraft, developed the standard of armament, which was implemented in the second batch of fighters? And the name of the F-7P is only business name.



20 Aircraft for testing is too much. PAF would have asked for changes to be made. For example F-7Ps have been photographed with AIM-9 series of US missiles. Always. And never with the one of Chinese origin. This would require changes to be made. It may have been done in Pakistan but still Chinese assistance would be involved. Similarly some avionics have western origin. Like radar from Italy, radio from US and Germany, HUD from UK etc. In short F-7P was specifically customized for Pakistan's requirements. Either in China or in Pakistan. At the time these aircraft were procured, China was benefiting from help of western companies in defense sector.

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## OttoPyr

So the changes were, but they were not outwardly visible.


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## Paksanity

Outwards changes that I can think of would be US AIM-9 missiles and maybe radio antennas. Mostly the aircraft has been photographed with western armaments of US origin like Mk-8x series bombs etc. Another outwardly visible change, when carrying weapons.

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## OttoPyr

AIM-9 missiles do not require additional antennas. These missiles are self-sufficient. But some modification of missiles required additional equipment that could not be located inside the missiles and therefore was placed on a plane. For example the cooling system with argon. More precisely, I would say if I know what kind of modification of the AIM-9 uses the PAF. In any case, the Chinese PL-2, originally intended for the F-7M, was a copy of earlier versions of the American AIM-9. Another thing, if the change affects constructions of locks on the pylons for the suspension of bombs and other weapons. Then locks for the suspension of PL-2 could differ from locks to suspension of AIM-9. Just varied methods of attachment of Chinese and American bombs.


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## Paksanity

OttoPyr said:


> AIM-9 missiles do not require additional antennas. These missiles are self-sufficient. But some modification of missiles required additional equipment that could not be located inside the missiles and therefore was placed on a plane. For example the cooling system with argon. More precisely, I would say if I know what kind of modification of the AIM-9 uses the PAF. In any case, the Chinese PL-2, originally intended for the F-7M, was a copy of earlier versions of the American AIM-9. Another thing, if the change affects constructions of locks on the pylons for the suspension of bombs and other weapons. Then locks for the suspension of PL-2 could differ from locks to suspension of AIM-9. Just varied methods of attachment of Chinese and American bombs.


 sure the changes are minimal and hard to notice. The shape of the launcher pylon may be slightly different. However if your are designing something where aircraft is carrying these missiles or bombs then obviously they will appear different from Chinese missiles and bombs.


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## OttoPyr

I am sure that the specification of weapons will be different for each of the three types of F-7P. But I still do not know which F-7P to produce in the scale model kit. I think that more popular is the third (last) version of the F-7P

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## Najam Khan

OttoPyr said:


> Thank you, Desert Fighter!
> But I think I need to show what is causing me questions. Here are some photos which I have noted only a few differences between the planes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And all these planes are called F-7MP



Your observations are right, the changes in these aircraft antennas/sensors is after almost 26 years of service. The above two photos are from the initial batches (circa 1989-1991) and last photo is from 2008/9 period (you should use this as reference).

Few recent photos are attached.

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## OttoPyr

You ahead me. I also found a picture of # 502 with several modifications typical for the second and third photo. This means that changes in the aircraft made repeatedly, and the sequence of non-operation does not depend on the year of production






Is there a source where I can read more about these changes? Of course, if it is not classified information

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## nomi007



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## Basel

OttoPyr said:


> So the changes were, but they were not outwardly visible.



This might help you:

*QUOTE:*

*F-7 Skybolt / J-7 (Jian-7 Fighter aircraft 7)*
F-7 MG is a single-seat, single engine light aircraft which was considered to be a well equipped modern fighter jet. Mainly used for bombing, F-7MGs has the capability to provide air-defence and ground support as well as capability to intercept. It has an operational range of 850 km. Inducted into the PAF in 1990, the F-7MP is the primary air defence fighter of the PAF.* Derived from the earlier MiG-21 model, the F-7MP embodies some 20 PAF specified changes *including wiring for both PL-5, Sidewinder missiles, IFF equipment, Martin-Baker Ejection seats. PAF initially ordered 20 F-7Ps and later the upgraded 60 F-MPs, but taken delivery of another 80 aircraft. The initial F-7Ps have also been upgraded to the F-7MP standard. F-7MP equiped No. 2, No. 14, No. 15, No. 17, No. 18, No. 19 (OCU), and No. 20 and CCS Squadrons of the PAF.

The News reported that China dispatched five ships to Karachi in the span of about 10 days in December 2001 to step up the supply of new aircraft, spares and other defence equipment. The ships were loaded with cargo ranging from cartons of unassembled brand new combat aircraft and a variety of air force-related weapons and equipment. The brand new aircraft were believed to be F-7MG aircraft which Pakistan had ordered earlier. Pakistan ordered two squadrons, about 40-50 aircraft. The timely delivery of new planes from China enhanced the capability of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) by several squadrons of brand new F-7 fighter aircraft narrowing a 1:2 ratio of air force planes between India and Pakistan. India had about 800 out of which 715 are combat ready aircraft, Pakistan's had a strength of 400. The new deliveries increased PAF strength to 450.

The F-7MP is the second basic production version. All-weather interceptor with search-tracking radar in enlarged inlet cone. Increased inlet diameter and enlarged forward fuselage. More fuel in proportionally waisted mid-fuselage. Larger main landing gear with bulges below and above wing roots. Pilot boom moved above inlet. 'Fishbed-E' is a version with 2 GSh-23mm guns on fuselage pylon and redesigned brake parachute housing.

It was being fitted with the new Grifo airborne radar system called "Pulse Doppler Frequency Agility Radar" made in collaboration with Italy. The Grifo Radars, have the ability to track and scan, look up and down at the enemy aircraft. Offers to upgrade existing equipment are not just confined to the original manufactures. Israel, for example, has a MiG-21 upgrade package that competes with the Russian upgrade (such an upgrade was performed for Romania by Israel). Because the JF-17 was developed primarily for the PAF and export market, it provides a low-cost replacement for many developing countries that are currently operating the ageing MiG-21/F-7 Fishbed and Northrop F-5 series. The unit price is estimated to be US$15 million.

In March 2008 three female pilots of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) graduated along with 20 male colleagues after completing their operational conversion course on F-7 fighter aircraft. "The PAF female pilots achieved yet another landmark. Through consistent hard work, dedication and exemplary spirit, they completed their operational conversion on F-7 fighter aircraft," a PAF press release said. It said the female pilots would now be deployed in different fighter squadrons of the PAF. Earlier, the graduation ceremony of 'Operational conversion course' was held at the PAF Base, Mianwali. Air Vice Marshal Faaiz Amir, Air Officer Commanding Northern Air Command, was the chief guest. Speaking on the occasion, Air Vice Marshal Faaiz Amir said, "As proud inheritors of glorious traditions, you'll not only be expected to live up to the finest examples of devotion, courage and professional excellence but also keep pace with the modern aviation trends to set new standards." He said, "The female members of the fighters' community, as pioneers, will not only be pace setters in professional standards, but in you lies the destiny of many aspiring young ladies who are keen to share your experiences and to decide about their future." Daily Times.

*UNQUOTE:
*
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/j-*7.htmhttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/j-7.htm*

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## Danish saleem

Any pic of F-7's with full weapon Load?

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## OttoPyr

Thank you, Basel!
Very interesting information. I found another resource, but can not share link here. I am new to the forum and I can not add links to my posts

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## Basel

OttoPyr said:


> Thank you, Basel!
> Very interesting information. I found another resource, but can not share link here. I am new to the forum and I can not add links to my posts



you are welcome, hope Russia and Pakistan start new era in economic and military cooperation which benefits both, will you like to sell Su-35s to Pakistan??

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## MastanKhan

nomi007 said:


> A night-strike-Mirage from Zarrar's Sqn. The unit is also equipped with Stand-Off-Weapon and special sensors for night-time- interdiction role.



Hi,

So here is a two seater mirage---we have two seater F16's---JF 17 has a better hauling capabilities and the morons a paf don't have a jf 17 with 2 seats----

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## HRK

*Pakistan Air Force F-16 and F-7P Induction Documentary*
(A vintage Documentary of PTV made in 1989)

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## OttoPyr

Basel said:


> you are welcome, hope Russia and Pakistan start new era in economic and military cooperation which benefits both, will you like to sell Su-35s to Pakistan??


Thank You! I like Pakistan. You are a very close-knit country. And your religion not dictates its own laws for the country's leadership. But Russia somehow finds his friend India. So I doubt that Russia will sell Pakistan Su-35 ever. Rather, China will release its copy

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## Paksanity

OttoPyr said:


> Thank You! I like Pakistan. You are a very close-knit country. And your religion not dictates its own laws for the country's leadership. But Russia somehow finds his friend India. So I doubt that Russia will sell Pakistan Su-35 ever. Rather, China will release its copy



Thanks. We have had some very good projects from Russia. Like Russia help us build our steel industry. Largest steel factory of Pakistan is in Karachi and it is built by Russians. In old time, it was common to see Russians around that area and people viewed them as nice and fun people.

You are right, Pakistan and Russia are not close enough to make large defense deals, yet. I think we should be focusing more on civil cooperation and trade. Like we can import industrial plants from Russia instead of Germany or US. Russia can help us in building infrastructure like automation of rail network, building of dams for water storage and power production. We can import natural gas and other fuels. In return we can export wheat, rice, leather, sports goods, fish, fruits, etc. We can also provide trade link to Russia through CARs and China to Arabian sea. Russia can also provide training to our professionals. Like I know many doctors in Pakistan got their degree from Russia. It was common in 90s. Russia can also train engineers.

In today's world, one should not choose either of the one. You do business with both. Pakistan should not have to choose between Russia and West. When Europe does so much business with you, how can they stop us. My idea is to improve our trade with Russia and then maybe we can get into defense ties as well. At the moment we should not expect anything more than Mi-28 and RD-93.

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## OttoPyr

*Paksanity*,
I am sure that your words is very, very right. But I have no influence on the Putin government. Rather, I am the opposition to them. Perhaps if Pakistan suggest partnership on one's own initiative, that Putin agree

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## nomi007



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## nomi007




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## salman-1

F-7 with cluster bombs during exercise in 2010






F-7P firing Aim-9 side winder during High Mark 2010

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## Basel

salman-1 said:


> F-7 with cluster bombs during exercise in 2010
> View attachment 195212



F-7s can carry verity of weapons, but PAF must add decent AAM (like ASRAAM, AIM-9X-2, IRIS-T or latest versions of R-73 or R-74) last missile may also provide longer range engagements, to their arsenal as AIM-9L/M will not help against more advance adversaries as F-7s can't carry BVRs,

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## salman-1

F-7PG can carry LGB's for sure see pic PIC. Just one May be in center line hard point. Grifo M radars are also capable of firing stand of weapons, but not sure for BVR. 
Bangladeshi F-7BG are equipped with Chinese KLJ-6 V2 radar which has a range of 70-75 km and are equipped with SD-10 missiles. Its engine also produces 17000lbs of thrust. BD Air force has the most lethal form of F-7BG in their arsenal.

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## Dazzler

I feel sorry for Bangladeshi folks, when the world moves on to fourth and fifth generation, they chest hump on inducting theultimate f7 version, equipping it with what not but forgetting about range payload and radar range. It will always be a glorified interceptor at best. The klj-6 falcon infact has less detection/ tracking range than grifo 7pg, but has compatibility with HMS though.

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## VelocuR

Yes also, we feel sorry for Pakistan Air force currently that has *more than 343 F-7PG * compared to 76 F-16/ 49 JF-17s. 

Are we still using old farting horrible F-7PGs in training exercies overseas?

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## salman-1

Sorry you are not informed well for numbers. We only have 80 F-7PG and 110 F7-Mp models exactly.F-7PG is considered 43% more better in performance according to Wing commander Tufail, as he was the chief selector for this version. Its turn rate according to him is almost same as F-16. It has a very powerfull engine giving 16000 pounds of thrust as compared to 14000 of F-7MP. PAF has itself installed thermo-dynamic system on its F-7 fleet for confirm. HMS installed can fire 45 degree off bore sight. Linked with US AIM-9L and PL-9E type missile. Freanch Atlis pods for lazer designation , 2 colored MFD s , Data link and alot more.

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## Dazzler

Deleted



VelocuR said:


> Yes also, we feel sorry for Pakistan Air force currently that has *more than 343 F-7PG * compared to 76 F-16/ 49 JF-17s.
> 
> Are we still using old farting horrible F-7PGs in training exercies overseas?



At least do some research on things you have no idea about before posting.

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## salman-1

F-7PG with F-22 in Pakistan. Can any one give me year when Raptor visited Pakistan

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## Basel

salman-1 said:


> View attachment 195681
> F-7PG with F-22 in Pakistan. Can any one give me year when Raptor visited Pakistan



That is not Pakistan, it is some where in ME, UAE or KSA may be.

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## salman-1

Europeans named F-7 PG as poor man's F-16. Can perform CAP missions like F-16

I dont think its not Pakistan, as both F-7 and F-7 PG were there to escort it to may be shahbaz Base

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## Windjammer

salman-1 said:


> View attachment 195681
> F-7PG with F-22 in Pakistan. Can any one give me year when Raptor visited Pakistan


That was during a multi-national exercise in UAE in 2009, where PAF along with USAF, Britain and France were invited.

*F-22 Raptors return from training in Middle East | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com*

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## VelocuR

Dazzler said:


> I feel sorry for Bangladeshi folks, *when the world moves on to fourth and fifth generation, they chest hump on inducting the ultimate f7 version*, equipping it with what not but forgetting about range payload and radar range. It will always be a glorified interceptor at best. The klj-6 falcon infact has less detection/ tracking range than grifo 7pg, but has compatibility with HMS though.





Dazzler said:


> Deleted
> 
> 
> 
> At least do some research on things you have no idea about before posting.



What I am saying is take a look at that picture I provided, the world was laughing of Pakistan's tiny obsolete F-7PGs next to F-16E/F, F-16 Block 60, Mirage 2000-9, F-22 Raptors, J-10A, and other advanced jets. Pakistan continue to represent F-7PG to world class training to answer your bold questions above.

Remember Pakistan has 343 F-7PGs which should be get rid of it ASAP.

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## Ray_of_Hope

VelocuR said:


> Remember *P*_*akistan has 343 F-7PGs*_ which should be get rid of it ASAP.


Nope. pakistan has some 186 F7`s of which around 50 are F7 Pg`s.Please correct your info

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## IrbiS

VelocuR said:


> Remember Pakistan has 343 F-7PGs which should be get rid of it ASAP.


Today is 23-02-2015, are you saying that we have 343 F-7PGs till this date?

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## Ray_of_Hope

IrbiS said:


> Today is 23-02-2015, are you saying that we have 343 F-7PGs till this date?


We never had 343 PG`s....


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## Basel

Windjammer said:


> That was during a multi-national exercise in UAE in 2009, where PAF along with USAF, Britain and France were invited.
> 
> *F-22 Raptors return from training in Middle East | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com*



Thank you for confirming, I forgot the date and place it actually took place.


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## VelocuR

war khan said:


> Nope. pakistan has some 186 F7`s of which around 50 are F7 Pg`s.Please correct your info





IrbiS said:


> Today is 23-02-2015, are you saying that we have 343 F-7PGs till this date?



I apologize regarding incorrect numbers, you are right. 186 is still huge numbers that can be shoot down easily, Pakistan need to worry about these obsolete own planes before other countries. 

If estimate numbers are accurate, Bangladesh Air force has total *37 F-7BG less than Pakistan. *


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## Ray_of_Hope

VelocuR said:


> I apologize regarding incorrect numbers, you are right. 186 is still huge numbers that_* can be shoot down easily,*_ Pakistan need to worry about these obsolete own planes before other countries.
> 
> If estimate numbers are accurate, Bangladesh Air force has total *37 F-7BG less than Pakistan. *


Its not that simple bro.F7 PG if properly employed can still serve as a good point defence interceptor

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## Imran Khan

VelocuR said:


> Yes also, we feel sorry for Pakistan Air force currently that has *more than 343 F-7PG * compared to 76 F-16/ 49 JF-17s.
> 
> Are we still using old farting horrible F-7PGs in training exercies overseas?


*343 F-7PG when did its happen ?*

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## Basel

war khan said:


> Its not that simple bro.F7 PG if properly employed can still serve as a good point defence interceptor



True, if PGs are equipped with R-74s or latest versions of R-73s with HMS then it is a beast in that role.

PGs need latest AAMs with good range MICA BVR with range of 60km range is ideal for PGs due to their limited radar range.

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## nomi007

Mirage III

PAF ordered its first batch of 24 Mirage, known as Blue Flash I, in 1967, comprising 18 Mirage IIIEP strike-interceptors, three Mirage IIIRP tactical recce aircraft and three Mirage IIIDP dual-seat trainers. Within weeks, six PAF pilots were sent to Mont de Marsan in France to train on the aircraft. The pioneers were Wg Cdr MM Alam (the PAF 1965 War Ace who eventually retired as an Air Cdre), Sqn Ldr Hakimullah (later Chief of Air Staff), Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan (later Chief of Air Staff), Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar (retired as Air Vice Marshal), Flt Lt Arif Manzoor (died in Syria in a flying accident) and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao (retired as a Wg Cdr). The training took some nine months and saw the first six Mirage IIIEPs (67-101 to 67-106) being flown from Mont de Marson to Karachi on March 18, 1968. All of the aircraft were delivered to No. 5 Squadron, which was fully operational by the 1971 War, when it flew over 200 day and night sorties from its home base, Sargodha, along with a detachment in Mianwali. Ten more Mirage IIIRPs were delivered under Blue Flash III. Later, a Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) system with the antennas mounted in the tailfin was retrofitted by the PAF indigenously. For offensive missions there were twin 30mm DEFA-552 cannon, and seven stores pylons, with a total store capacity of 8,800lbs (4,000kgs). The ten Mirage IIIRPs were delivered to No. 20 (Tactical and Recce) Squadron in June 1977, while the earlier Mirage IIIRPs of No. 5 Squadron also joined No. 20 Squadron. Under Blue Flash V, a total of 42 single-seat Mirage IIIEA (ex-Australia) and eight Mirage IIIDAs (DA-Dual ex-Australia) were acquired and by June 1992, ten Mirage IIIEAs and four Mirage IIIDAs had been delivered to No. 7 Squadron. Most of the 42 Mirage IIIEAs were eventually despatched to PAC Kamra, where they were put through a Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE) upgrade in co-operation with the French aerospace upgrade specialists, Sagem, in 1995. Deliveries of the ROSE Mirage IIIEAs commenced in 1996 to No. 7 Squadron at Masroor and the CCS at Mushaf. These ROSE aircraft all came with a Grifo-M radar and modern air-to-air missiles. Five Mirage IIIDPs and ten Mirage IIIEAs that were not upgraded were distributed to No. 5 Squadron along with five recce noses and cameras the RAAF had supplied. They replaced many of the original Mirage IIIEPs. Some of the Mirage IIIEA single-seaters had Infra Red Line Scanners (IRLS) integrated into their systems and at least two others were modified to carry a Long Range Aerial Panoramic (LORAP) photographic system. In 2003, the PAF bought 12 Mirage IIIEEs and one Mirage IIIDE from Spanish Air Force for spares cannibalization and, unlike the Australian or Lebanese purchases, that is just what they are being used for. Their condition dictated there was no way that any of them could be returned to service.

Mirage V
In 1970, a second batch (Blue Flash II) of Mirages comprising 28 Mirage VPAs (a long-range version of the Mirage IIIE) and a pair of two-seat Mirage IIIDPs, were ordered. The Mirage VPAs were fitted with the Aida II radar to provide the fighter with a ranging capability. Eighteen Mirage VPAs were delivered to No. 9 Squadron, a tactical attack unit that also housed the Mirage Operational Conversion Unit, at Rafiqui in January 1973; the remaining ten Mirage VPAs went to equip the Mirage Squadron of the Combat Commanders' School (CCS). In 1978, the PAF increased its Mirage acquisitions by a further 32 aircraft (Blue Flash IV) with the purchase of 30 Mirage VPA2/3s and two more Mirage VDPA2s. Production of the aircraft started in 1979 and the first batch (Mirage VPA2s) equipped the reformed No. 18 Squadron at Rafiqui in 1982, while No. 8 Squadron at Masroor was re-equipped with a mix of Mirage VPA2 and PA3 in the same year. The Mirage VPA3s came armed with the AM 39 Exocet anti-shipping missile that performed so well during the 1982 Falklands War. The Mirage VPA3s are fitted with the Thomson CSF Agave radar to guide the Exocet to its target. Early in 1996 the PAF signed a contract, with Sagem for the upgrade of 33 Mirage VEFs and six Mirage IIIDFs which were all eventually upgraded to ROSE standard. There were originally 40 aircraft in the contract but a French test-pilot crashed one of them after hitting electricity cables in France during 2000. This programme did not run smoothly because of a lack of spare parts. An initial 19 aircraft were eventually delivered to No. 25 Squadron at Kamra-Minhas, but this did not commence until mid-1998, when experienced PAF Mirage pilots ferried them from Bordeaux, France, to Masroor. The last eight remaining Mirage VEFs of the Blue Flash VI contract were delivered to No. 22 OCU at Masroor, where pilots convert to the Mirage. This allowed the Mirage VPAs serving the unit to be released to No. 8 Squadron for operational use. Clearly, the PAF leadership were keen to beep up their Mirage squadrons with an aircraft that only cost a fraction of a new fighter. These former Lebanese Mirages were eventually transferred to No. 22 OCU, when their Mirage VEFs went to PAC Kamra for ROSE modifications. This provided the PAF with an all important tactical night attack capability and the ROSE Mirage VEFs were delivered to the newly created No. 27 Squadron, which stood up in April 2007 at Rafiqui, under the command of Wg Cdr Shafqat. By now the PAF had gained a reputation of being the world's experts on the Mirage classic. After acquiring the bulk of Libya's Mirages several of them have been overhauled and delivered to a variety of squadrons, although No. 5 Squadron took the Mirage VDRs. Pakistan's ingenuity and engineering skills have meant the Mirages continue to play a major part in the defence of Pakistan airspace.

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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=818465398189198




23 March training drill

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## nomi007

*H-2 SOW*

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## Storm Force

Paf has 170 f7 fighters and around 150 mirages but half the mirage fleet will be cannablised for spares. As this mirage went out of production 30 years ago. You can't get spares. 

There are fifty thunders and 73,falcons .

Around 70% of the paf is obsolete. And needs replacing thus coming decade with thunders and more falcons


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## Mughal-Prince

Imran Khan said:


> *343 F-7PG when did its happen ?*



Koi Nahin yaar janay dey Yeh bhi bhai ki tarhan ka bewra lugta hai Ziada pi li ho gi 3 say multiply Ker dia figure  Ya koi indian info perhtay perhtay PAF per comment ker baitha.


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## nomi007



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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> Paf has 170 f7 fighters and around 150 mirages but half the mirage fleet will be cannablised for spares. As this mirage went out of production 30 years ago. You can't get spares.
> 
> There are fifty thunders and 73,falcons .
> 
> Around 70% of the paf is obsolete. And needs replacing thus coming decade with thunders and more falcons




Thank you Sherlock homes for bringing us up to speed ... we are well aware of what needs to be done and its in the works this 70% so called obsolete force still make others think twice .

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## Storm Force

No Top Gun.

This 70% is not keeping the enemy at bay.

And neither is the falcons or the thunders.

ITS MORE the GDP growth trajectory touching over 7% and the GDP going to $2.3 trillion dollars.

India wants no war because they do not want the growth of economy to slow down

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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> No Top Gun.
> 
> This 70% is not keeping the enemy at bay.
> 
> And neither is the falcons or the thunders.
> 
> ITS MORE the GDP growth trajectory touching over 7% and the GDP going to $2.3 trillion dollars.
> 
> India wants no war because they do not want the growth of economy to slow down



That's what you think ole crystal ball reader " Storm Force" but thank you for informing us we greatly appreciate it ja hind

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## Dil Pakistan

Storm Force said:


> No Top Gun.
> 
> *This 70% is not keeping the enemy at bay.*
> 
> And neither is the falcons or the thunders.
> 
> ITS MORE the GDP growth trajectory touching over 7% and the GDP going to $2.3 trillion dollars.
> 
> India wants no war because they do not want the growth of economy to slow down



*REALLY ??*

This audacity is shocking !!!

IAF crossed the border at two places at the time of Mumbai attacks - CORRECT ?

IAF jets were locked by PAF fighters at both places - REMEMBER ?

Did IAF had its tail between the legs and turned around to save the 7% GDP *?* If so then shame on IAF

@TOPGUN; @Windjammer; @nomi007



Storm Force said:


> No Top Gun.
> 
> *This 70% is not keeping the enemy at bay.*
> 
> And neither is the falcons or the thunders.
> 
> ITS MORE the GDP growth trajectory touching over 7% and the GDP going to $2.3 trillion dollars.
> 
> India wants no war because they do not want the growth of economy to slow down



*REALLY ??*

This audacity is shocking !!!

IAF crossed the border at two places at the time of Mumbai attacks - CORRECT ?

IAF was locked by PAF at both places - REMEMBER ?

Did IAF turn around to save the 7% GDP ? If so then shame on IAF

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## Blue Warrior

India airforce crossed the border one time after mumbai attacks. second time they retreatd back well before crossing internation border as CAP was On and shoot to kill orders were in pockets. IAF was upto checking alert readiness. And they got the befitting answer which stopped them from surgical strikes.

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## Blue Warrior

Mirages are very old but after upgradation they are still lethal. Specially radar upgradation to overcome ground clutters and capability of night strike. Air refueling is also very important factor specially when you are upto hi lo hi profile. Though not all deltas are refuel capable but still have a squadron strenth of it.


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## IrbiS

Blue Warrior said:


> Mirages are very old but after upgradation they are still lethal. Specially radar upgradation to overcome ground clutters and capability of night strike. Air refueling is also very important factor specially when you are upto hi lo hi profile. Though not all deltas are refuel capable but still have a squadron strenth of it.



Welcome on the forum


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## Blue Warrior

We are having a very important aspect of deltas. And that is martime role , couple it with PC3 orion ,you get a handsome profile.


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## CHI RULES

Blue Warrior said:


> Mirages are very old but after upgradation they are still lethal. Specially radar upgradation to overcome ground clutters and capability of night strike. Air refueling is also very important factor specially when you are upto hi lo hi profile. Though not all deltas are refuel capable but still have a squadron strenth of it.


Dear perhaps Mirage Vs crash rate is relatively low but do you honestly think that they apart from maritime role they are capable to perform deep maritime strikes along with their A2A warfare capabilities.

We require true multirole fighter jets to counter any enemy not India specific. It has been discussed earlier that Pak should at least acquire J11 for maritime role and if possible should go for J15s for naval defence and strike may be in limited numbers up to squadron strength along with a squadron of Jf17 block -II or twin seater Jf 17 in near future with little bit longer range ascompared to block-I.


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## Blue Warrior

IrbiS said:


> Welcome on the forum


Thanx

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## Windjammer

Dil Pakistan said:


> *REALLY ??*
> 
> This audacity is shocking !!!
> 
> IAF crossed the border at two places at the time of Mumbai attacks - CORRECT ?
> 
> IAF jets were locked by PAF fighters at both places - REMEMBER ?
> 
> Did IAF had its tail between the legs and turned around to save the 7% GDP *?* If so then shame on IAF
> 
> @TOPGUN; @Windjammer; @nomi007


Ignore him, victim of their own media, these characters feel brave by just typing nonsensical lines meant to demean others. Deep down they know the reality which scares them hence they need to talk big.
One just needs to look at history in a realistic manner, the only time the IAF performed was during Kargil conflict, that too because it was doing operations within it's territory without any air opposition, which only involved some high altitude bombings. But later in 2002, when IAF was all poised to launch attacks on Pakistan on the night of 28th/29th May, it stood down after it learned how PAF will respond and later after the Mumbai attacks, the IAF again felt adventurous and their pilots nearly got fried.......so let the fanboys wave in the air and make escape with this economy preservation excuse, they feel awestruck even when a few jets make a straight and level flypast over their parade venue. Can you imagine the IAF having the same confidence and performing aerobatics above their capital in the same mannere as PAF did on Pakistan Day Parade. !!!

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## Dil Pakistan

Windjammer said:


> Ignore him, victim of their own media, these characters feel brave by just typing nonsensical lines meant to demean others. Deep down they know the reality which scares them hence they need to talk big.
> One just needs to look at history in a realistic manner, the only time the IAF performed was during Kargil conflict, that too because it was doing operations within it's territory without any air opposition, which only involved some high altitude bombings. But later in 2002, when IAF was all poised to launch attacks on Pakistan on the night of 28th/29th May, it stood down after it learned how PAF will respond and later after the Mumbai attacks, the IAF again felt adventurous and their pilots nearly got fried.......so let the fanboys wave in the air and make escape with this economy preservation excuse, they feel awestruck even when a few jets make a straight and level flypast over their parade venue. Can you imagine the IAF having the same confidence and performing aerobatics above their capital in the same mannere as PAF did on Pakistan Day Parade. !!!



Thank you Sir.

No I cannot imagine IAF having a heart, they don't have it in them and this is where the difference lies

PAF   ; all the way.


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## black-hawk_101

Can PAF sell its F-7P and A-5Cs as spares to its current operators?

Also, can F-7PGs be sold to BDs?


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## Shabi1

Yes A-5s and F-7Ps can be broken down and sold for spares with airframes going as monuments. But I would prefer PAF consider converting F-7s for unmanned configuration/UAV to be used as SAM decoys to expend enemy missiles or reveal air defense locations or cruise missiles as China has done with retired J-6/7s 










Still some years of service left.
For F-7PG, its much more capable so probably will go on reserve storage. Just as the some F-6s were, once it was retired.

Mirages could be cannibilized to keep the remaining fleet operational as they are slowly pulled back from service.

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## nomi007



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## syedali73

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 222063


looks like arming a Mirage. Some competition?


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## Mabs

syedali73 said:


> looks like arming a Mirage. Some competition?



Red Flag.


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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Ignore him, victim of their own media, these characters feel brave by just typing nonsensical lines meant to demean others. Deep down they know the reality which scares them hence they need to talk big.
> One just needs to look at history in a realistic manner, the only time the IAF performed was during Kargil conflict, that too because it was doing operations within it's territory without any air opposition, which only involved some high altitude bombings. But later in 2002, when IAF was all poised to launch attacks on Pakistan on the night of 28th/29th May, it stood down after it learned how PAF will respond and later after the Mumbai attacks, the IAF again felt adventurous and their pilots nearly got fried.......so let the fanboys wave in the air and make escape with this economy preservation excuse, *they feel awestruck even when a few jets make a straight and level flypast over their parade venue.* Can you imagine the IAF having the same confidence and performing aerobatics above their capital in the same mannere as PAF did on Pakistan Day Parade. !!!



Bhai, if they managed to make a level and straight high speed pass, without crashing, i would be very awestruck as well.



syedali73 said:


> looks like arming a Mirage. Some competition?



Question is, are they wearing steel toes?


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## IrbiS

syedali73 said:


> looks like arming a Mirage. Some competition?



Falcon Air Meet




Mabs said:


> Red Flag.

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## syedali73

Donatello said:


> Question is, are they wearing steel toes?


What you mean by that?


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## Windjammer

syedali73 said:


> looks like arming a Mirage. Some competition?





Mabs said:


> Red Flag.



Falcon Meet 2010 in Jordan. 









Donatello said:


> Bhai, if they managed to make a level and straight high speed pass, without crashing, i would be very awestruck as well.



Hence just to be double sure, they only fly twin engine over the venue.

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## Donatello

syedali73 said:


> What you mean by that?



Those shoes the airmen are wearing while loading the missile seem inappropriate.



nomi007 said:


> View attachment 222063



The missile is heavy (85Kgs, concentrated in a very tight space), if you ever been to gym, imagine that 25Kg barbell weight fall on your foot....so similarly, a slip while loading the missile could easily injure your foot. So that's all i am saying. Notice the 'boots' worn by US and Jordanian crews.

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## fatman17

Mabs said:


> Red Flag.



No in KSA


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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> No in KSA



Jordan stand corrected


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## GHOST RIDER

Windjammer said:


> Falcon Meet 2010 in Jordan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hence just to be double sure, they only fly twin engine over the venue.



Did any one else notice the guy who is filming , running and probably cheering up his fellow airman (hand raised in the air) ?

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

*cockpit of F-86*

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## nomi007

is this baba g

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## MastanKhan

syedali73 said:


> What you mean by that?




Steel toe boots---for toe protecton------toes---pairon ki unglian---hehn ji.


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## black-hawk_101

OttoPyr said:


> You ahead me. I also found a picture of # 502 with several modifications typical for the second and third photo. This means that changes in the aircraft made repeatedly, and the sequence of non-operation does not depend on the year of production
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a source where I can read more about these changes? Of course, if it is not classified information



AS Mirages are better than F-7s in terms of Payload. Then PAF should have focus on sending Mirages to Balochistan and bringing F-7PGs and F-7Ps from KPK and Balochistan to Sindh. Also, the parts of F-7s are cheap and widely available because of China's new acquisition of J-10s. So, F-7s spares can be bought below the market value too. F-7s are great machines.


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## Sage

@ Windjammer

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## nomi007



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## nomi007




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## Windjammer




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## black-hawk_101

Simple thing is that station all of the Mirage IIIs and Vs to KPK, FATA and Balochistan and deploy F-7s, JF-17s and F-16s to Sindh and Punjab.


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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

black-hawk_101 said:


> Simple thing is that station all of the Mirage IIIs and Vs to KPK, FATA and Balochistan and deploy F-7s, JF-17s and F-16s to Sindh and Punjab.



Good idea

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## Dazzler

with Aim-9L in air interception role.

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

F7PG in special livery Tigers

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## fatman17

F7PG with full load

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## fatman17

Tigers from F86 to F6 to F7PG


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## nomi007

Grifo-7


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## Windjammer

A source informs me that the work to install IFR facility on the selected Mirages has now been completed.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> A source informs me that the work to install IFR facility on the selected Mirages has now been completed.



Zarrars


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## araz

Perhaps a stupid question but if the induction of JFT is slow has PAF considered upgrading the PGs to the super7 modification and utilize the available airframes till they build up capacity or is it not worth while? Just needed to know.
Araz


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## IrbiS

araz said:


> Perhaps a stupid question but if the induction of JFT is slow has PAF considered upgrading the PGs to the super7 modification and utilize the available airframes till they build up capacity or is it not worth while? Just needed to know.
> Araz



It's been said in intervenes that JF production rate is synchronized with the PAF's retirement schedule of older platforms but PGs aren't on the go-list as of now


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## nomi007

*Project Terminated.*




Back in mid-1960's, Pakistan took delivery of a few Harbin H-5 Beagles as a supplement and possible replacement for the Martin B-57 since the U.S arms embargo on Pakistan during the 1965 Indo-Pakistani War. The H-5's or B-56 as known in the PAF service were delivered in 1966 and were used as evaluations. However, during those evaluations, the PAF became unsatisfied with the H-5 and even lacked systems that were found on the B-57 like an advanced bombing sight and that felt underpowered to. By 1969, the Pakistan returned the H-5's back to China and decided to soldier on with the B-57's were used in 1971 War until they were retired in the early-1980's in which ended the chapter for Pakistani bomber force.


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## nomi007

best image 

see mirage with ifr
also participate in shaheen series exercise

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## Moon

@Windjammer 
It's a well known fact that F-7s have short legs, however in the F-6 we had Gondola tanks, can these be put on our newer F-7 fleet?. Or is a dorsal fuel tank feasible?.

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## Windjammer

Mr.Meap said:


> @Windjammer
> It's a well known fact that F-7s have short legs, however in the F-6 we had Gondola tanks, can these be put on our newer F-7 fleet?. Or is a dorsal fuel tank feasible?.


With a combat range of around 850km, the F-7 has about 200km advantage over the older F-6s.
The gondola tanks caused extra drag thus weren't deployed widely.
If having dorsal tanks was that convenient, the older F-16s would be first to adopt them, you need to strengthen the air frame to adopt this accessory.

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## Moon

Windjammer said:


> With a combat range of around 850km, the F-7 has about 200km advantage over the older F-6s.
> The gondola tanks caused extra drag thus weren't deployed widely.
> If having dorsal tanks was that convenient, the older F-16s would be first to adopt them, you need to *strengthen the air frame* to adopt this accessory.



Don't the F-7s have a robust air frame?.
But then again F-7s are more powerful than F-6s, can't more aerodynamic tanks be fitted?.
The MiG-29 do have dorsal tanks:





And so do MiG-21s:




Can't we do the same 0.o?


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## Cool_Soldier

Are those BAF mig's 21?


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## Moon

Cool_Soldier said:


> Are those BAF mig's 21?



Probably.


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## Moon

Cool_Soldier said:


> Are those BAF mig's 21?



Wait by BAF which one r u talking about?.


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## Cool_Soldier

Which are shown in Above snaps


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## Moon

Cool_Soldier said:


> Which are shown in Above snaps



No I mean are you talking about BAF (Bulgarian Airforce) or BAF (Bangladesh Airforce)?.


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## Cool_Soldier

Bangladesh Air Force


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## Moon

Cool_Soldier said:


> Bangladesh Air Force



Nah, these belong to some Eastern Europe nation, look at the markings.


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## T-55

Mr.Meap said:


> Nah, these belong to some Eastern Europe nation, look at the markings.


Croatian MIG 21

Fighter F-7PG (export version of the Chinese istrebitelyaChengdu J-7, which, in turn, a copy of the Soviet MiG-21) from the 20th Squadron of Pakistan Air Force exercise "High Mark 2010", which worked through the use of motorways in the role of runway -posadochnoy band(sorry if repost)
































sorce 477768 - Китайские "Fishbedы" на пакистанских просторах

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## Moon

T-55 said:


> Croatia MIG 21
> 
> Fighter F-7PG (export version of the Chinese istrebitelyaChengdu J-7, which, in turn, a copy of the Soviet MiG-21) from the 20th Squadron of Pakistan Air Force exercise "High Mark 2010", which worked through the use of motorways in the role of runway -posadochnoy band(sorry if repost)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sorce 477768 - Китайские "Fishbedы" на пакистанских просторах



Oh, ok thanks.

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## T-55

Glad i could help.(sorry for bad english)

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## Moon

T-55 said:


> Glad i could help.(sorry for bad english)



It's alright


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## fatman17

Mr.Meap said:


> Don't the F-7s have a robust air frame?.
> But then again F-7s are more powerful than F-6s, can't more aerodynamic tanks be fitted?.
> The MiG-29 do have dorsal tanks:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And so do MiG-21s:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't we do the same 0.o?



These are not gondola tanks


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## SQ8

Mr.Meap said:


> Don't the F-7s have a robust air frame?.


No they dont. There is a structural limit to that airframe like all objects and a load they can take. Otherwise you can try to hang 4 Ton bombs off their wings and see how they crack. 

The Mig-21Bis versions you have shown all specifically had modifications to strengthen the airframe. The F-7 is based off the first generation Mig-21C and hence does not have any of those improvements. 
It is also the reason why the Chinese and their attempt at the F-7FS still only managed a point defence fighter because they were still working off the first gen mig-21.

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## black-hawk_101

The best thing for Pakistan is that sell their F-7Ps to IRAN also to become a broker by buying more F-7s from other users and sell them to IRAN. Even IRAN can buy directly from all users that includes China. Also gain avionics upgrade kits from China that will allow the jets to use LGB-GPS bombs with BVR capability.

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## MastanKhan

black-hawk_101 said:


> The best thing for Pakistan is that sell their F-7Ps to IRAN also to become a broker by buying more F-7s from other users and sell them to IRAN. Even IRAN can buy directly from all users that includes China. Also gain avionics upgrade kits from China that will allow the jets to use LGB-GPS bombs with BVR capability.




Hi,

Iran have their own planes with their girley names----they won't be buying the F7's.

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## black-hawk_101

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Iran have their own planes with their girley names----they won't be buying the F7's.


They will once offered with upgrades to use another 10-12 years against ISIS and others. They need F-7 like planes along with used MiG-29


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## unleashed

Imran Khan said:


> mirage rose-3 and f7pg are with us until 2020


Can't we sell them to any African country.. by any chance?
Sorry for asking a noob question...

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## Moon

fatman17 said:


> These are not gondola tanks



I know I am talking about feasibility of a dorsal tank or a gondola tank to improve combat radius.


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## araz

black-hawk_101 said:


> The best thing for Pakistan is that sell their F-7Ps to IRAN also to become a broker by buying more F-7s from other users and sell them to IRAN. Even IRAN can buy directly from all users that includes China. Also gain avionics upgrade kits from China that will allow the jets to use LGB-GPS bombs with BVR capability.


Will you please stop this nonsense. Iran is not going to buy your junk. Secondly there is currently an international arms smbargo on iran and whereas big powerhouses like Russia and China can bypass the restrictions you will get penalized heavily. Thirdly you cant just sell fighter aircrafts without the approval of manufacturers. We still will use our PGs but the rest will be junk . Some maybe caccooned for possible future use but rest will be dismantled parts used for other planes and the frames put on chawrangis. That is about all they would be good for

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## fatman17

unleashed said:


> Can't we sell them to any African country.. by any chance?
> Sorry for asking a noob question...



Yar jab F7PG available hai from China who will buy standard F7

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Yar jab F7PG available hai from China who will buy standard F7


Sir I think the F7 line finally shut down in 2013. So they will now not be available.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

black-hawk_101 said:


> They will once offered with upgrades to use another 10-12 years against ISIS and others. They need F-7 like planes along with used MiG-29





araz said:


> Will you please stop this nonsense. Iran is not going to buy your junk. Secondly there is currently an international arms smbargo on iran and whereas big powerhouses like Russia and China can bypass the restrictions you will get penalized heavily. Thirdly you cant just sell fighter aircrafts without the approval of manufacturers. We still will use our PGs but the rest will be junk . Some maybe caccooned for possible future use but rest will be dismantled parts used for other planes and the frames put on chawrangis. That is about all they would be good for



Though Iran is currently under arms embargo but it is going to be completely lifted in about 1yr. There are reports that Iran is looking at F-15's and F-18's along with other aircraft so they are not going to use the F-7's any more.

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## unleashed

fatman17 said:


> Yar jab F7PG available hai from China who will buy standard F7


Its means they will be found in every chowk of PAk, as decoration..?



fatman17 said:


> Yar jab F7PG available hai from China who will buy standard F7


what if we give them on discount??

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## untitled

unleashed said:


> I.....
> what if we give them on discount??



How by selling them on e-bay?

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## unleashed

persona_non_grata said:


> How by selling them on e-bay?


Olx will work..

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## black-hawk_101

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Though Iran is currently under arms embargo but it is going to be completely lifted in about 1yr. There are reports that Iran is looking at F-15's and F-18's along with other aircraft so they are not going to use the F-7's any more.


I am sure they are not. They might be looking for F-14, F-4 and F-5 spares along with Mirage F1s.


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## In arduis fidelis

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Though Iran is currently under arms embargo but it is going to be completely lifted in about 1yr. There are reports that Iran is looking at F-15's and F-18's along with other aircraft so they are not going to use the F-7's any more.


Sir please take a look on the recent statements by the US administration and IRAN supreme leaders.They may have reached a deal on nuclear issues but they are till sworn enemies and no way Iran will have its hands on US war machines at least not in this decade or the next.


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Though Iran is currently under arms embargo but it is going to be completely lifted in about 1yr. There are reports that Iran is looking at F-15's and F-18's along with other aircraft so they are not going to use the F-7's any more.



Sir you must be joking here.


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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Iran have their own planes with their girley names----they won't be buying the F7's.



Soon after the deal is finalized with Iran, I think Iran will be looking at the -15IR (like SA version for Saudis), Rafale or -18's. They like to operate higher tier twin turbine jets. I'd also suspect a large order to upgrade their tomcats as they are still airworthy and have a huge radar system in place with 6 on 6 targeting capability.

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## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> Soon after the deal is finalized with Iran, I think Iran will be looking at the -15IR (like SA version for Saudis), Rafale or -18's. They like to operate higher tier twin turbine jets. I'd also suspect a large order to upgrade their tomcats as they are still airworthy and have a huge radar system in place with 6 on 6 targeting capability.



Hi,

You are right----they prefer the medium to heavy twin engine fighter aircraft---. Their force projection is different.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Rafay Jamil said:


> Sir please take a look on the recent statements by the US administration and IRAN supreme leaders.They may have reached a deal on nuclear issues but they are till sworn enemies and no way Iran will have its hands on US war machines at least not in this decade or the next.



This is how Politics works rally the crowds...USA is going to sell them all the weapons because they are trying to make the Arabs vary.



fatman17 said:


> Sir you must be joking here.


Sir, Joke or not but the F-15's of F-18 are going to be part of Iran Air Force... This is going to compensate the older order of F-14 and F-16's...


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## fatman17

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This is how Politics works rally the crowds...USA is going to sell them all the weapons because they are trying to make the Arabs vary.
> 
> 
> Sir, Joke or not but the F-15's of F-18 are going to be part of Iran Air Force... This is going to compensate the older order of F-14 and F-16's...



In lrans dreams yes

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> In lrans dreams yes


I agree. I think the Iranians will now be vary of buying anything US due to their embargo. I think they might go for USSR or Chinese products as they will have a lot more assurance of continuity of spares. EU products in my view are out for the same reason. We seem to be getting an East West divide here. Anyways lets see how this cookie crumbles.
Araz

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## fatman17

Sir Obama made it very clear. No normality in their relationship. Nuke deal is a one off.


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## nomi007

once upon a time


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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> once upon a time


What happened?? Strong wind I guess.


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## Knight Rider

ANG said:


> Hi, the IAF MiG-21 Bison is BVR capable and went through a comprehensive electronics and radar upgrade, only the engine was not changed. It is a potent platform. The PAF needs to urgently replace its F-7s and Mirages with the JF-17. The Mirages have been upgraded and the F-7PG is a new platform, but still will show their age in a few years. Thanks!


 
Bro!!!! Mirage is a better unit then MIG-21, Has more combat kills then MIG-21 ever do. Pakistan and India are neighbors .Fight will be close quarter combat. Indian air force will always play offensive role and Pakistan Air Force will always play defensive role. India will have more casualty due to offensive role. F-16s will play vital role for Pakistan. JF-17 will have surprise element in the war. Pakistan don't need bombers better Missile system then India.


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## DMP

Imran Khan said:


> mirage rose-3 and f7pg are with us until 2020


Mirage is with us till 2025


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## Imran Khan

DMP said:


> Mirage is with us till 2025


our bad luck



ACE OF THE AIR said:


> What happened?? Strong wind I guess.


mirage angry crying and rolling like baby . he refused to fly like kids refuse to go school


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## DMP

Imran Khan said:


> mirage angry crying and rolling like baby . he refused to fly like kids refuse to go school






mourning sage said:


> well the 15-20m cost of jf-17 is just for the initial stages. after the upgradations it will be above that for sure.


It is almost 30 million now


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## Inception-06

nomi007 said:


> once upon a time




should be given pure people so they can use the metal material !


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## Danish saleem

nomi007 said:


> Amazing to see every thing intact, he the cockpit glass is also intact!


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## Imran Khan

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This is how Politics works rally the crowds...USA is going to sell them all the weapons because they are trying to make the Arabs vary.
> 
> 
> Sir, Joke or not but the F-15's of F-18 are going to be part of Iran Air Force... This is going to compensate the older order of F-14 and F-16's...


its almost impossible .


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## UkroTurk

What is the lifetime of engines f7pg and Mirages? ?
Russian engines have a short lifetime. RD33 (MIG29) engine has 500 hours life time.
How can PAF trust aircrafts? Or You dont have another choice?
Fighter Jet Engine Life &#151; Military Forum | Airliners.net



The Initial RD 33 without turbine modifications had a ridiculously low engine life of 350-400 hours before overhaul. In most of the engines which came with the initial batch of fulcrums for the Indian air force , the engine TBO was kept at 200 hrs to reduce a whole bunch of accidents.Most of the contry's operating the MiG 29 (Atleast India and Germany) made modifications to the turbine section to increase this. Currently the overhaul times for the engine is about 650-700 hours , rarely reaches 700 hours though. The problem with the RD 33 was that while it gave enormous power it always used to overheat. That caused turbine failures. The engines manufactured by HAL under license all have the improved turbine section incorporated in them.


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## Paksanity

nomi007 said:


> once upon a time



I wonder how the pilot got out of cockpit? He isn't still inside, is he?


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## nomi007

Paksanity said:


> I wonder how the pilot got out of cockpit? He isn't still inside, is he?


landing check karo
safe and secure


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## ACE OF THE AIR

Imran Khan said:


> our bad luck
> 
> 
> mirage angry crying and rolling like baby . he refused to fly like kids refuse to go school


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## Archie

F-7s and Mig21s should have been retired in 2005, its. Shame we are still flying them in 2015
Pakistani Mirages are over 40 years old, they too need to be laid

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## DMP

Archie said:


> F-7s and Mig21s should have been retired in 2005, its. Shame we are still flying them in 2015
> Pakistani Mirages are over 40 years old, they too need to be laid


F-7PG to nahi na kiu k wo aya hi 2003 main tha


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## IrbiS



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## barbarosa

F 7 PG is the modified version of MIG 21 which was build by USSR in 1958. PAF use it in 21st century. why? we do not know.


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## khanasifm

Pak is a third world country and majority of third world still fly them including India


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## humza_313

Some of my recent PG shots

http://www.airfighters.com/photo/175984/M/Pakistan-Air-Force/Chengdu-F-7PG/02-827/

Im not sure If I remember how to get the thumbnail view from a link


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## muhammadali233

nomi007 said:


> once upon a time


can you repost the photo ?


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## nomi007




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## Danish saleem

guys, converting 3 platforms with one, i dont think so its a suitable and good idea at all.


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## Dr Shaheryar

barbarosa said:


> F 7 PG is the modified version of MIG 21 which was build by USSR in 1958. PAF use it in 21st century. why? we do not know.



F-16 were built in 80's and they are still the prime fighting machines of USAF, USN and US Army. Old doesn't mean it cannot fly. Necessary modifications and MLU'S make every old aircraft if not new but atleast at par.


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## Beast

The PAF F-7PG were build in the late 90s to early 2000. Their airframe is newer compare to Indian Bison.

Crank delta wing to improve low speed handling, better turn plus improved fuel capacity. Radar modernized. Glass cockpit. More powerful engine with better lifespan They are not the same as those Mig-21 in the 60s and 70s.

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## weqi

Nav said:


> Rose upgraded mirages will be dedicated to PN. PG's will remain in service till 2020 as they r inducted in 2002. And simple F7 air guards wil b gifted to bangladesh .



you r saying gits ...........to ...................bAnGlaDeshi

why? 

better to establish engineering institute and gift them all


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## khanasifm

USAF Eval of MiG-21

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## nomi007



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## syed_yusuf

Beast said:


> The PAF F-7PG were build in the late 90s to early 2000. Their airframe is newer compare to Indian Bison.
> 
> Crank delta wing to improve low speed handling, better turn plus improved fuel capacity. Radar modernized. Glass cockpit. More powerful engine with better lifespan They are not the same as those Mig-21 in the 60s and 70s.



Forget to add strengthen air frame with new generation technology to produce crank delta wings. a technology similar to that of Mig29

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## JohnWick

Simply just wow!


nomi007 said:


> are they are same jets
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 17133





Imran Khan said:


> *343 F-7PG when did its happen ?*


Three years no one told ...the Answer....


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## syed_yusuf

F-7PG i snot same as F-7P/MP. there is a market technological difference in construction, engine, avionics and performance. newer wings, and better maneuverability, over all it is 83% better than F-7B. 

PAF bought 57 of these birds in 2000-2003. arming 3 squadrons. armed with aim9 L/M8/9 and Grifo-7PG Mk2 radar among other avionics. 

comparing them to Bison is not fair. mig-21 bison is basically Bis design build initially in 70's. and then upgraded in 2000's to bison with updated cockpit and avionics. in last 18 years PAF lost 4-6 F-7 PG. a very healthy track record.

PAF also bough FT-7PG. these a base vanila FT-7P with updated avionics. these are the one have crashed more than single seat F-7PG, which was build with modern construction techniques and skills. Its wings are from mig-29 technological base and material. I had alwasy argued as to why PAF F-7PG are not armed with ingle SD-10 under belly for AA missions. with rabta system, it should have really add a force to patrol.

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## GriffinsRule

I think we have lost around 12 single-seat PGs. And while it is a marked improvement over the baseline F-7M/P, and has a niche role to play in the air interdiction role, its not capable enough in the coming decade due to electronic obsolescence. Mind you, its upgraded but with technology that is still 30 years old.
PAF produced the first Grifo set in KARF in October 2000. The radar development started all the way back in 1990.

http://babriet.tripod.com/airforce/stat/statgrifo.htm

I googled and my decades old site came up in the results haha

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## Keysersoze

GriffinsRule said:


> I think we have lost around 12 single-seat PGs. And while it is a marked improvement over the baseline F-7M/P, and has a niche role to play in the air interdiction role, its not capable enough in the coming decade due to electronic obsolescence. Mind you, its upgraded but with technology that is still 30 years old.
> PAF produced the first Grifo set in KARF in October 2000. The radar development started all the way back in 1990.
> 
> http://babriet.tripod.com/airforce/stat/statgrifo.htm
> 
> I googled and my decades old site came up in the results haha


People (Especially on websites like these) need to widen their vision when thinking about aircraft like the F7. Typically there is a tendency to say "why are we flying these? We need to get super dooper new shiny thing to replace it" 

The F7's have useful airframes. They can run point defence freeing up F16's and JF17's to attack. A F7 can shoot down aircraft if you use the right tactics. It has small rcs, has a radar of reasonable range for targeting and can be guided in by AWACS with it's nose cold.
It can in a pinch be used to attack ground targets. (Imagine all the super dooper planes are busy and you need to support ground troops in a hurry....)

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## GriffinsRule

Keysersoze said:


> People (Especially on websites like these) need to widen their vision when thinking about aircraft like the F7. Typically there is a tendency to say "why are we flying these? We need to get super dooper new shiny thing to replace it"
> 
> The F7's have useful airframes. They can run point defence freeing up F16's and JF17's to attack. A F7 can shoot down aircraft if you use the right tactics. It has small rcs, has a radar of reasonable range for targeting and can be guided in by AWACS with it's nose cold.
> It can in a pinch be used to attack ground targets. (Imagine all the super dooper planes are busy and you need to support ground troops in a hurry....)


Yes I agree. Chaadar dekh kar pao phalanay wali baat. It is useful in the context of what PAF can afford, or rather not afford to discard, while keeping in mind IAF capabilities. We will always have to contend with technology as well as a numbers game. However, as IAF modernizes in the coming decade, these aircraft become a liability in terms of resource-effectiveness ratio. Everything that go into training, maintenance etc has a cost associated with it which at some point starts to overtake the benefit of keeping legacy aircraft around. 
In the coming decade, we will see them soldier on just because there is a cost-benefit associated with having this platform but it is not the ideal solution. If Pakistan has say a 100B in its accounts, we would not be seeing this plane in PAF service. We make do with what we have and what we can afford and use them to the best of our abilities.


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## Keysersoze

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes I agree. Chaadar dekh kar pao phalanay wali baat. It is useful in the context of what PAF can afford, or rather not afford to discard, while keeping in mind IAF capabilities. We will always have to contend with technology as well as a numbers game. However, as IAF modernizes in the coming decade, these aircraft become a liability in terms of resource-effectiveness ratio. Everything that go into training, maintenance etc has a cost associated with it which at some point starts to overtake the benefit of keeping legacy aircraft around.
> In the coming decade, we will see them soldier on just because there is a cost-benefit associated with having this platform but it is not the ideal solution. If Pakistan has say a 100B in its accounts, we would not be seeing this plane in PAF service. We make do with what we have and what we can afford and use them to the best of our abilities.


Yes agreed. But the decade or so that these aircraft fly will reduce flight hours on better platforms. The IAF modernisation is still a mess. The PAF is managing it better and replaced the A5's and is getting rid of the F7P's faster than the opposition is getting rid of their MIG's. The PAF will have AESA platforms very soon and in greater numbers. And the IAF sanctioned sqaudron strength is down 10-12 below strength which will take decades to replace and they keep crashing aircraft (At least 30) AZM will be the game changer depending on how quickly it becomes usable. If past experience is to be taken into consideration then they will be probably go with an project already in existence.

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## Armchair

It could be interesting if PAF bought 50 F-7PGs second hand from China (China is retiring these in large numbers), had them rebuilt, with an AESA radar in the nose and modern avionics. Armed with two SD-10s and 2 PL-10s, they could serve as deadly point defense fighters, and act as close air support for the army. 

100 such aircraft as the second line fighters for PAF would not be bad at all.


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## Khafee

Imran Khan said:


> *343 F-7PG when did its happen ?*





JohnWick said:


> Simply just wow!
> 
> 
> 
> Three years no one told ...the Answer....


Guess the city and you will have your answer

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> Guess the city and you will have your answer
> View attachment 566537


i know this is UAE sir my question was 343 f-7PG sir . we dont have total even 180 of them combine p and PG .

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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> I think we have lost around 12 single-seat PGs. And while it is a marked improvement over the baseline F-7M/P, and has a niche role to play in the air interdiction role, its not capable enough in the coming decade due to electronic obsolescence. Mind you, its upgraded but with technology that is still 30 years old.
> PAF produced the first Grifo set in KARF in October 2000. The radar development started all the way back in 1990.
> 
> http://babriet.tripod.com/airforce/stat/statgrifo.htm
> 
> I googled and my decades old site came up in the results haha



If electronics is the problem with the PGs, one could easily upgrade them. Granted, the biggest problem is the small nosecone is not suitable for a meaningfully sized radar, but this problem is solved thanks to new AESA GaN technology which is powerful even when compact.


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## JohnWick

Khafee said:


> Guess the city and you will have your answer
> View attachment 566537


What this city is to do with the number of F-7 we have?


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## Khafee

JohnWick said:


> What this city is to do with the number of F-7 we have?


Not number, the place of the exercise, where history was made with F7 & f22 in the same arena.



GriffinsRule said:


> I think we have lost around 12 single-seat PGs. And while it is a marked improvement over the baseline F-7M/P, and has a niche role to play in the air interdiction role, its not capable enough in the coming decade due to electronic obsolescence. Mind you, its upgraded but with technology that is still 30 years old.
> PAF produced the first Grifo set in KARF in October 2000. The radar development started all the way back in 1990.
> 
> http://babriet.tripod.com/airforce/stat/statgrifo.htm
> 
> I googled and my decades old site came up in the results haha


Does the F7 have data link?


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## Dazzler

Khafee said:


> Not number, the place of the exercise, where history was made with F7 & f22 in the same arena.
> 
> 
> Does the F7 have data link?



Yes, link 17.

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## araz

Armchair said:


> It could be interesting if PAF bought 50 F-7PGs second hand from China (China is retiring these in large numbers), had them rebuilt, with an AESA radar in the nose and modern avionics. Armed with two SD-10s and 2 PL-10s, they could serve as deadly point defense fighters, and act as close air support for the army.
> 
> 100 such aircraft as the second line fighters for PAF would not be bad at all.


i see the logic but cant help but feel that the limitations of the platform are dictating PAF decision making. Why else would we go for the M3s from Egypt rather than getting newer air frames from China while it was producing them.I also suspect that the Chinese airframes do not have any meaningful life left in them. 
This is a backward step and the 200 million you are looking to spend on getting fodder for the enemy can be utilized better with the Block 3s (even if we get 30 platforms). Case in point PAF ducked out of the Sabre 2 programme fairly early on. I was in UK at the time(1988) and met up with a few Aeronautical MSC/PHD level students from Cranwell. Their contention was that the money sunk into the project was a wasted effort as it did not take away the basic limitations of the platform ie short range., small nose cone and lack of upgradability. PAF perseveres with the M3/5s primarily due to longer Airframe life and space available for upgrades. I know even this is not ideal but our financial situation demands appropriate decisions. 
My own thought is that PAF puts whatever it has in its kitty and goes for J31, 2-3 squadrons in 2023-25 time frame provided the plane still exists and then sits back and works with Project Azm. I strongly suspect the Chinese will not let you have them till you buy some J10s and we will end up buying J10s
A

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## Armchair

araz said:


> i see the logic but cant help but feel that the limitations of the platform are dictating PAF decision making. Why else would we go for the M3s from Egypt rather than getting newer air frames from China while it was producing them.I also suspect that the Chinese airframes do not have any meaningful life left in them.
> This is a backward step and the 200 million you are looking to spend on getting fodder for the enemy can be utilized better with the Block 3s (even if we get 30 platforms). Case in point PAF ducked out of the Sabre 2 programme fairly early on. I was in UK at the time(1988) and met up with a few Aeronautical MSC/PHD level students from Cranwell. Their contention was that the money sunk into the project was a wasted effort as it did not take away the basic limitations of the platform ie short range., small nose cone and lack of upgradability. PAF perseveres with the M3/5s primarily due to longer Airframe life and space available for upgrades. I know even this is not ideal but our financial situation demands appropriate decisions.
> My own thought is that PAF puts whatever it has in its kitty and goes for J31, 2-3 squadrons in 2023-25 time frame provided the plane still exists and then sits back and works with Project Azm. I strongly suspect the Chinese will not let you have them till you buy some J10s and we will end up buying J10s
> A



Well, even if you leave aside upgrading the F-7PGs, it would cost a minimal amount to upgrade the Mirage IIIs with JFT block 2/3 PD radars and electronics - as they get upgraded to near block 3 standard.


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## araz

Armchair said:


> Well, even if you leave aside upgrading the F-7PGs, it would cost a minimal amount to upgrade the Mirage IIIs with JFT block 2/3 PD radars and electronics - as they get upgraded to near block 3 standard.


I wish it was that simple. The considerations will be.
A. Airframe life.
B. Will the engine be able to support all the new software/ hardware you want to put in. New engine will be another nightmare.
C. Nose cone size and will it support the PD radar you want to put in.
D. Upgrade of the whole wiring, conversion of analogue to digital system. So essentially a new cockpit.
E. Calculating shift in COG and whether this will require modifications.
F. Will Red bear/yellow dragon approve the transfer of equipment.
G. OEM approval??(dont know whether it will be required).
H. Time in testing evaluating and tweeking.
I At the end of it all you have 50s tech with a life not exceeding 5 -10 years.
J. Do you have the necessary skill set and time money and manpower to achieve it? If not where do you get help from and at what cost. French upgrades are never cheap.
Jet fighters are very sophisticated pieces of machinery. You will need extensive testing after each stage. I personally think PAF simply does not have the manpower, metallurgical support or money and the product is time expired so you still have a machine with limited life 3-5 hardpoints and probably not enough fuel capacity to achieve what you want to achieve with the current/ new engine.
Look I am by no means an expert and my learning is based on learning from friends and reading literature. I see all these problems which may have been the reason PAF sent fighters over to French for ROSE upgrade. Feel free to think around ways but I dont think there is much that can be done. The M3/5 is at the limit of its upgrade and cannot be upgraded anymore
Wasslam.
A

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## TOPGUN

Armchair said:


> Well, even if you leave aside upgrading the F-7PGs, it would cost a minimal amount to upgrade the Mirage IIIs with JFT block 2/3 PD radars and electronics - as they get upgraded to near block 3 standard.



Araz bro, so you really do think that PAF will end up having J-10's ?

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## araz

TOPGUN said:


> Araz bro, so you really do think that PAF will end up having J-10's ?


My brother.
If I had my way and if money was not an issue and J31 ready that would be my next buy. But we neither have the mone, nor a ready product to buy. The only other option open to us is the J10. PAF liked what it saw and the progress made by the Chinese. The Chinese want to sell their product and if the terms are right I suspect PAF might do so. We do need an interim product which could either have been more 16s or J10s. The former door is now closed or too unreliable. It therefore points to the latter product. 
I still think we need to wait till a squadron of Block3 is inducted and re evaluate. If it exceeds expectations we may carry on, but if a gap is felt then J10 may well be the answer.
A

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## Armchair

HI @araz you don't need to change the wiring from analogue to digital for the flight controls. You simply need to change one PD radar for another, one set of cockpit avionics for another. Granted, there is some integration involved, but it isn't as extensive as you are making it out to be, not even a new engine is needed.

If you can keep it flying for 10 more years as you noted, it would be well worth it for PAF or for any air force. Remember, the radar and electronics are coming from the older block JFT, so little cost in hardware. Mainly inhouse integration.

I do think PAF is shopping right now to evaluate her alternatives. Even the MiG-35 is getting a look but the J-10, even in small numbers, makes huge strategic sense. However, PAF may skip the J-10 for something greater than that, despite a long-standing dislike of not fully mature platforms.


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## TOPGUN

araz said:


> My brother.
> If I had my way and if money was not an issue and J31 ready that would be my next buy. But we neither have the mone, nor a ready product to buy. The only other option open to us is the J10. PAF liked what it saw and the progress made by the Chinese. The Chinese want to sell their product and if the terms are right I suspect PAF might do so. We do need an interim product which could either have been more 16s or J10s. The former door is now closed or too unreliable. It therefore points to the latter product.
> I still think we need to wait till a squadron of Block3 is inducted and re evaluate. If it exceeds expectations we may carry on, but if a gap is felt then J10 may well be the answer.
> A



Very well said my brother and I agree 100% thank you.

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