# Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando - 50 dead and 53 injured



## Blue Marlin

LIVE UPDATES- https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...-nightclub-shooting-terrorism-suspect-updates

At least 20 people have been killed and some 42 injured in a shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, police say.

Orlando Police said officers entered the Pulse Club about three hours after the shooting unfolded - and killed the gunman, who had taken hostages.

They called it an act of terrorism, but said they did not yet know if it was domestic or international.

Relatives have been gathering at local hospitals desperate for news.

Many had received calls and texts from loved ones inside the club as the siege began, and some have heard nothing since.


Orlando Police Chief John Mina said the attack began at 02:00 (06:00 GMT) and a police officer on duty at the club exchanged gunfire with the gunman.

The attacker then entered the club and a "hostage situation" unfolded, he said.


Media captionOrlando Police Chief John Mina said at briefing that there had been multiple deaths
Chief Mina said a decision was taken at 05:00 to send a police assault team into the club after receiving texts and phone calls from some of the hostages.

"Our SWAT officers exchanged gunfire with the suspect, the suspect is dead," he said.

"He appeared to be carrying an assault-type rifle and a handgun, and had some type of device on him."

An FBI spokesman said they were investigating whether the attacker was a "lone wolf". He said the attacker appeared to "have leanings towards" radical Islamist ideology but it was not yet clear whether this was a case of domestic or international terrorism.

Media captionEyewitness Ricardo Negron Almodovar described how he escaped through the building's back door
At least 20 bodies have been found in the club itself, and some 42 people have been taken to hospital to be treated for their injuries, Chief Mina said.

A clubber earlier described a situation of chaos outside as the number of casualties became apparent.

"There were just bodies everywhere," Christopher Hansen said. "In the parking lot, they were tagging them - red, yellow - so they knew who to help first and who not help first. Pants down, shirts cut off, they had to find the bullets. Just blood everywhere."

Some of the injured were reportedly brought to the Orlando Regional Medical Center in police pick-ups.


More than 100 people were reported to have been enjoying the end of a Latin-themed night in the club, which calls itself the hottest gay bar in the city, when the attack began.

"We heard rapid fire go off. In the room I was in, people went down to the floor. I wasn't able to see the shooter or people get hurt," Ricardo Negron Almodovar told BBC News.

"At some point, there was a brief pause, and a group of us got up and went to the exit that leads to the patio area outside. We found an exit and after that... I just ran."

Image copyright Facebook
Image caption The club posted this message as reports of a shooting were emerging
According to the Mass Shooting Tracker, the US last year suffered 372 mass shootings, defined as a single incident that kills or injures four or more people. Some 475 people were killed and 1,870 wounded.

The latest incident comes as Orlando was still reeling from the fatal shooting on Friday night of 22-year-old singer Christina Grimmie following a concert in the city.

She had been signing autographs when she was shot by 26-year-old Kevin James Loibl, who then killed himself. It is not clear what Loibl's motive was.


















http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/36510272

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## T-72M1

jihad

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## 21 Dec 2012

No need to bring your inner islamophobe out. Wait for the updates.

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## T-72M1

21 Dec 2012 said:


> No need to bring your inner islamophobe out. Wait for the updates.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...b-shooting-injuries-reported-at-pulse-orland/

*Omar Mateen *

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## Mrc

T-72M1 said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...b-shooting-injuries-reported-at-pulse-orland/
> 
> *Omar Mateen *



is that some thing to celebrate????


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## T-72M1

Mrc said:


> is that some thing to celebrate????


what made you think I'm 'celebrating' ?

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## 21 Dec 2012

T-72M1 said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...b-shooting-injuries-reported-at-pulse-orland/
> 
> *Omar Mateen *


So long as his motives haven't been clearly determined, this can only be classified as a shooting. Calling it anything else at this point is ridiculous.


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## Parul

Rest In Peace.


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## T-72M1

21 Dec 2012 said:


> So long as his motives haven't been clearly identified, this can only be classified as a shooting. Calling it anything else at this point is ridiculous.


so a guy named Omar carries out a mass murder at a gay club during ramadan, fairly obvious what is was... 20 dead, why be politically correct ?

btw, it's not me, it's what the FBI has said

full name: Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, most likely of Pakistani origin.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/omar-...attack-name-photos-facebook-motive-terrorism/

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## 21 Dec 2012

T-72M1 said:


> so a guy named Omar carries out a mass murder at a gay club during ramadan, fairly obvious what is was... 20 dead, why be politically correct ?
> 
> btw, it's not me, it's what the FBI has said
> 
> full name: Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, most likely of Pakistani origin.
> 
> http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/omar-...attack-name-photos-facebook-motive-terrorism/


This has nothing to do with PC 
The definition of terrorism


> "International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
> 
> 
> Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
> Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
> Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*
> "Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
> 
> 
> Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
> Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
> Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
> https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/terrorism/terrorism-definition



is different from the one used in common lingo i.e a Middle Eastern Moslem shouting Allah-ho-Akbar before blowing some people up. All I am saying is don't jump to conclusions.

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## T-72M1

21 Dec 2012 said:


> This has nothing to do with PC
> The definition of terrorism


I don't care how the FBI defines it, all I'm saying is it looks like a clear case of Jihad.

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## Anubis

If the second amendment can be exploited by terrorists...shouldn't it be looked at?

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## 21 Dec 2012

T-72M1 said:


> I don't care how the FBI defines it, all I'm saying is it looks like a clear case of Jihad.


Clearly you did before being educated about the real meaning of FBI's statement.


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## T-72M1

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Clearly you did before being educated about the real meaning of FBI's statement.

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## Tamilnadu

RIP


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## Mrc

T-72M1 said:


> what made you think I'm 'celebrating' ?




Your knee jerk comment


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## wadi79

Some months back, it was ISIS throwing gay people off rooftops in territory they controlled. Now this. An intolerant minority is going to dictate how the rest of us can behave, eat/drink and live.

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## 21 Dec 2012

T-72M1 said:


>


Finally came around from your earlier position of 'clear case of Jihad'? Or do you still have trouble understanding what he said?


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## T-72M1

50 killed !


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## iPhone

Parents migrated from Afghanistan.


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## Mrc

RIP innocents


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## jerry_tan

This guy has no criminal record and good citizen , crazy , creepy isn't it.

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## iPhone

How'd one Motherfukr kill so many people single handadly?


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## Tari

It was a GLBT night club.

The abbreviations stands for Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender.

There is a lot of hatred for these people even in America.

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## wadi79

50 killed. What savagery?! 

But not to worry. In some time, the shock will wear off. Then the apologists will come out of the woodwork. 
'This has nothing to do with a particular relgion'
'This was because of US policies in the Middle East'
'Those deviants had it coming'. 

I am sorry to say something like this at the time of a tragedy, but how many times have we seen this cycle? Unfortunately, this won't be the last time.

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## Zibago

T-72M1 said:


> so a guy named Omar carries out a mass murder at a gay club during ramadan, fairly obvious what is was... 20 dead, why be politically correct ?
> 
> btw, it's not me, it's what the FBI has said
> 
> full name: Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, most likely of Pakistani origin.
> 
> http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/omar-...attack-name-photos-facebook-motive-terrorism/


Stupid he is Afghani

My condolences to the families of the deceased


iPhone said:


> How'd one Motherfukr kill so many people single handadly?


Americans train in shooting ranges and getting auto rifles is as easy as buying a motorcycle for them

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## iPhone

Zibago said:


> Stupid Indiot he is Afghani
> 
> My condolences to the families of the deceased
> 
> Americans train in shooting ranges and getting auto rifles is as easy as buying a motorcycle for them


No, I know. But even with all the training those are still semi-auto rifles the gun stores sell. To be able to kill over 50 people single handadly is just insane.

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## Zibago

T-72M1 said:


> stupid pakee, the name Mir Siddiqui Mateen could just as easily have been from Pakistan
> 
> anyway, it was jihad aka islamic terrorism.


Did you have his birth certificate before declaring him Pakistani ?


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## SvenSvensonov

Zibago said:


> Did you have his birth certificate before declaring him Pakistani ?





T-72M1 said:


> stupid pakee, the name Mir Siddiqui Mateen could just as easily have been from Pakistan
> 
> anyway, it was jihad aka islamic terrorism.



F*ck off both of you. Neither police nor city officials have said anything yet, so leave conclusion making out of the thread.


























50 Dead. 50 wounded.

F*ck we suck.

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## Zibago

iPhone said:


> No, I know. But even with all the training those are still semi-auto rifles the gun stores sell. To be able to kill over 50 people single handadly is just insane.


Some sites say he was a trained shooter his weapon of choice was AR 15 and he multiple rounds with him to maximise casualties some reports suggest he pledged allegiance to ISIS


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## KN-1

RIP


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## Who.Cares

RIP



T-72M1 said:


> I said most likely, because a 'Mir Siddiqui Mateen' does sound like it could be a Pakistani name, not Arab, not Indonesian, not Algerian or Moroccan but specifically, Pakistani.
> 
> just like if some 'Kumar' name pops up in the news, you would be right to assume that it's an Indian name, nevermind that you can find the odd Kumar in Sri Lanka etc too.


Moron, you said Pakistani without any source. Muslims have same name and there are more than 55+ Islamic countries.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-identified-by-police-us-media-a7077936.html

Anyway, Afghani, Friend of India.

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## Zibago

Fifty people killed in massacre at Florida gay nightclub: police

ORLANDO, Fla. (Reuters) - A gunman killed 50 people and injured 53 in a crowded gay nightclub in the tourist hub of Orlando, Florida, early on Sunday before being shot dead by police, authorities said, in what appeared the deadliest mass shooting in American history.

The shooter was identified as Omar S. Mateen, a man that a senior FBI official said might have had leanings toward Islamic State militants. Officials described the attack as a "terrorism incident" though cautioned that the suspected Islamist connection required further investigation.

The death toll given by Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer and police to reporters made the attack the deadliest single shooting incident in U.S. history, eclipsing the 2007 massacre at Virginia Tech university, which left 32 dead.

"Today we're dealing with something that we never imagined and is unimaginable," Dyer said. Recalling earlier estimates that 20 people had been killed, he added, "It is with great sadness I share that we not have 20 but 50 casualties (dead), in addition to the shooter. There are another 53 ...hospitalized.”

A police officer working as a security guard inside the Pulse nightclub, which has operated in downtown Orlando since 2004, exchanged fire with the suspect at about 2 a.m. EDT, police officials said.

A hostage situation quickly developed, and three hours later a squad of officers stormed the club and shot dead the gunman. It was unclear when the gunman shot the victims.

"Do we consider this an act of terrorism? Absolutely, we are investigating this from all parties' perspective as an act of terrorism," said Danny Banks, special agent in charge of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. "Whether that is domestic terrorist activity or an international one, that is something we will certainly get to the bottom of."
When asked if the FBI suspected the gunman might have had inclinations toward militant Islam, including a possible sympathy for Islamic State, Ronald Hopper, an assistant FBI agent in charge, told reporters: "We do have suggestions that the individual may have leanings toward that particular ideology. But right now we can't say definitively."

ADVERTISEMENT
The FBI said it was still trying to pin down whether the mass shooting was a hate crime against gays or a terrorist act.

President Barack Obama ordered the federal government to provide any assistance needed to Florida police investigating the shooting, the White House said in a statement.

The attacker was carrying an assault rifle and a handgun, Orange County Sheriff Jerry Demings said. He was also carrying an unidentified "device", Orlando Police Chief John Mina said earlier.

Javer Antonetti, 53, told the Orlando Sentinel newspaper that he was near the back of the dance club when he heard gunfire. "There were so many (shots), at least 40," he said. "I saw two guys and it was constant, like 'pow, pow, pow,'."





Video footage showed police officers and civilians carrying injured people away from the club and bending over others who were lying on the ground. Dozens of police cruisers, ambulances and other emergency vehicles could be seen in the area.

'HORRIFIC ACT'

Pulse is described on its website as more than "just another gay club." One of the club's founders and owners, Barbara Poma, opened it in 2004 in an effort to keep alive the spirit of her brother, who died after battling HIV.

The choice of target was especially heart-wrenching for members of the U.S. lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community, LGBT advocacy group Equality Florida said in a statement.
Gay clubs hold a significant place in LGBTQ history. They were often the only safe gathering place and this horrific act strikes directly at our sense of safety," the group said. "We will await the details in tears of sadness and anger."

It was the second deadly shooting at an Orlando night spot in as many nights. Late Friday, a man thought to be a deranged fan fatally shot Christina Grimmie, a rising singing star and a former contestant on "The Voice", as she was signing autographs after a concert in the central Florida city.

Orlando has a population of 270,930 and is the home of the famed Disney World amusement park and many other tourist attractions that attracted 62 million visitors in 2014.


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## RoadRunner401

T-72M1 said:


> I said most likely, because a 'Mir Siddiqui Mateen' does sound like it could be a Pakistani name, not Arab, not Indonesian, not Algerian or Moroccan but specifically, Pakistani.
> 
> just like if some 'Kumar' name pops up in the news, you would be right to assume that it's an Indian name, nevermind that you can find the odd Kumar in Sri Lanka etc too.




Stop jumping in every thread and start telling us that you have inferiority complex and it's only 3". We get it, it's well documented.

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## iPhone

Zibago said:


> Some sites say he was a trained shooter his weapon of choice was AR 15 and he multiple rounds with him to maximise casualties some reports suggest he pledged allegiance to ISIS


He must be well tranined to cause this kinda damage. Thats why there should be a national database of everyone that takes such training courses at shooting ranges across America.

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## Irfan Baloch

Who.Cares said:


> RIP
> 
> 
> Moron, you said Pakistani without any source. Muslims have same name and there are more than 55+ Islamic countries.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-identified-by-police-us-media-a7077936.html
> 
> Anyway, Afghani, Friend of India.


even if its a Muslim then what? or a Pakistani then so what? do I need to stand trial ?
do we need to apologise for him? I dont feel compelled to have to explain myself. a Saudi never feels ashamed or compelled to explain himself for Daesh mass beheading or bombings in the world. 

the law US enforcement agencies failed to prevent the incident and failed to stop him before the slaughter



T-72M1 said:


> I said most likely, because a 'Mir Siddiqui Mateen' does sound like it could be a Pakistani name, not Arab, not Indonesian, not Algerian or Moroccan but specifically, Pakistani.
> 
> just like if some 'Kumar' name pops up in the news, you would be right to assume that it's an Indian name, nevermind that you can find the odd Kumar in Sri Lanka etc too.


you need to wait until @Syed.Ali.Haider brings us more information

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## iPhone

T-72M1 said:


> I said most likely, because a 'Mir Siddiqui Mateen' does sound like it could be a Pakistani name, not Arab, not Indonesian, not Algerian or Moroccan but specifically, Pakistani.
> 
> just like if some 'Kumar' name pops up in the news, you would be right to assume that it's an Indian name, nevermind that you can find the odd Kumar in Sri Lanka etc too.


Dude, you're just dumb shit stupid with each post of yours.


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## Arabian Stallion

Irfan Baloch said:


> even if its a Muslim then what? or a Pakistani then so what? do I need to stand trial ?
> do we need to apologise for him? I dont feel compelled to have to explain myself. a Saudi never feels ashamed or compelled to explain himself for Daesh mass beheading or bombings in the world.
> 
> the law US enforcement agencies failed to prevent the incident and failed to stop him before the slaughter



What are you blabbering about? What has Daesh to do with KSA? None of its leaders are from KSA, it was not founded in KSA or by any Saudi Arabian individual. Nor has it anything to do with KSA. There are more Chechens in ISIS than people from KSA despite KSA bordering Iraq/Syria directly and being a fellow Arab country. Despite Chechens only numbering 3-4 million people worldwide.
Anyway why do you need to include KSA and Arabs in a thread that has nothing to do with KSA or Arabs? Then you complain about Indians doing the same with Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Maybe you should look up your ethnicity (Baloch) despite numbering less than 10 million and their role in Al-Qaeda and Islamic militancy. Few rivals out there.

The mastermind behind 9/11 was a Baloch:





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed

Also I believe that Pakistan has quite a problem with Baloch terrorists do you not? You can't stop obsessing about the 450 million Arabs it seems. Pathetic.



Irfan Baloch said:


> Mr Arab,
> ,
> please don't be so defensive even though its how yo are brought up which cant be helped. if you tried to understand the meaning of the sentence then you will understand that its a case of guilty by association issue.
> 
> like I said, I dont have to explain for the actions of fellow Muslims who do it under their capacity for whatever race they are or even Pakistanis. neither you should for say 911 despite the fact that large number of the hijackers were Saudis or are part of Daesh just like some Pakistanis are as well.
> 
> for the non-Muslims it is Islamic problem and they wont care about your racial insecurities.



Mr. Baloch,

I was not the one who started blabbering about ethnicity or in this case KSA or Arabs which have absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Let alone Daesh. You were. Have you already forgotten this?

As for the rest of your post, I have not argued otherwise. Terrorists and mental cases like this one represent 0,0001% of their ethnicity, nationality etc. everywhere. Nor has this action anything to do with Islam or anything remotely sane. However you shall not expect to be able to write nonsense about KSA, Arabs etc. and think that no Arab user here will question your bullshit.

Lastly why don't you blame KSA, Saudi Arabians and to a lesser degree other Arabs for everything negative that every single of the 1.6 billion Muslims do? After all what is today KSA is the cradle of Islam. Of Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Sufism etc. You name it. I would not put it past you to do so, lol.

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## Irfan Baloch

21 Dec 2012 said:


> So long as his motives haven't been clearly determined, this can only be classified as a shooting. Calling it anything else at this point is ridiculous.


hey lets call it ISI funded Islamic attack as a revenge of Modi's reception in America.


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## Zibago

iPhone said:


> He must be well tranined to cause this kinda damage. Thats why there should be a national database of everyone that takes such training courses at shooting ranges across America.


In America gun control is as controversial as blasphemy law amendment is in Pakistan the American people are strongly against it they view it as encroachment on their rights



Arabian Stallion said:


> What are you blabbering about? What has Daesh to do with KSA? None of its leaders are from KSA, it was not founded in KSA or by any Saudi Arabian individual. Nor has it anything to do with KSA. Why do you need to include KSA and Arabs in a thread that has nothing to do with KSA or Arabs? Then you complain about Indians doing the same with Pakistan and Pakistanis.
> 
> Maybe you should look up your ethnicity (Baloch) despite numbering less than 10 million and their role in Al-Qaeda and Islamic militancy. Few rivals out there.


Lets blame the terrorist and his ideology instead of other ethnic groups and nationalities

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## 21 Dec 2012

Irfan Baloch said:


> hey lets call it ISI funded Islamic attack as a revenge of Modi's reception in America.


Can you please clear the India-Pakistan shit shovelling off this thread? There are a billion more threads for that.

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## Irfan Baloch

Arabian Stallion said:


> What are you blabbering about? What has Daesh to do with KSA? None of its leaders are from KSA, it was not founded in KSA or by any Saudi Arabian individual. Nor has it anything to do with KSA. There are more Chechens in ISIS than people from KSA despite KSA bordering Iraq/Syria directly and being a fellow Arab country.
> Anyway hhy do you need to include KSA and Arabs in a thread that has nothing to do with KSA or Arabs? Then you complain about Indians doing the same with Pakistan and Pakistanis.
> 
> Maybe you should look up your ethnicity (Baloch) despite numbering less than 10 million and their role in Al-Qaeda and Islamic militancy. Few rivals out there.


Mr Arab,
,
please don't be so defensive even though its how yo are brought up which cant be helped. if you tried to understand the meaning of the sentence then you will understand that its a case of guilty by association issue.

like I said, I dont have to explain for the actions of fellow Muslims who do it under their capacity for whatever race they are or even Pakistanis. neither you should for say 911 despite the fact that large number of the hijackers were Saudis or are part of Daesh just like some Pakistanis are as well.

for the non-Muslims it is Islamic problem and they wont care about your racial insecurities.

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## Blue Marlin

SvenSvensonov said:


> F*ck off both of you. Neither police nor city officials have said anything yet, so leave conclusion making out of the thread.
> 
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> 50 Dead. 50 wounded.
> 
> F*ck we suck.


its not the fact that you "suck" its thats fact that it happened so fast and there was little that could have been done. personally i think the usa did a very good job the pics above in your post show that. all i have to say is stay strong and be close to the one you love most. and rip to the lost and give strengh to the grieving/wounded
kinda off topic post but i thought you can carry guns on your person?
@Irfan Baloch why have you not banned? T-72M1 look at post #28 and all of the others


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## Irfan Baloch

21 Dec 2012 said:


> Can you please clear the India-Pakistan shit shovelling off this thread? There are a billion more threads for that.


this is their bread and butter. you can sense the glee and pleasure among these Indians who cant suppress their excitement over the incident. wait and see as they will be uploading videos with flame bait titles blaming Pakistanis.

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## American Pakistani

Very sad incident.

Fkk that murthor further sob who took 50 precious lives. A very bleak spot on the face of humanity in general and on muslims to be specific.

Islam says, anyone who killed one human has killed entire humanity, and murder and killings are second biggest sin after shirk. I don't know what Islam are these bitch3s following.

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## MarkusS

Arabian Stallion said:


> The mastermind behind 9/11 was a Baloch:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed
> 
> Also I believe that Pakistan has quite a problem with Baloch terrorists do you not? You can't stop obsessing about the 450 million Arabs it seems. Pathetic.



Wait...is this guy from Endor or what?

That said i feel sorry for those affected by this. But we are at war so such events happen. Im glad italy was not struck yet.

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## Irfan Baloch

SvenSvensonov said:


> F*ck off both of you. Neither police nor city officials have said anything yet, so leave conclusion making out of the thread.
> 
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> 50 Dead. 50 wounded.
> 
> F*ck we suck.


see how a single SOB can disrupt the entire peace and lives of so many. . now there will be backlashes, tensions, flaming and all sort and more innocent and peaceful people who have nothing to do with it will be caught up due to wrong color, race or religion.

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## Devil Soul

Shooter is identified as Afghan/American Omar Mateen

QUOTE="American Pakistani, post: 8374572, member: 28088"]Omg please don't tell me that he was another murthor further from pakistan?[/QUOTE]


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## American Pakistani

Irfan Baloch said:


> this is their bread and butter. you can sense the glee and pleasure among these Indians who cant suppress their excitement over the incident. wait and see as they will be uploading videos with flame bait titles blaming Pakistanis.



Omg please don't tell me that he was another murthor further from pakistan?


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## lightoftruth

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742015162199232512


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## Maler

Devil Soul said:


> Shooter is identified as Afghan/American Umar Mateen




A Pashtoon???


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## Devil Soul

Maler said:


> A Pashtoon???


An Afghan... For now..

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## iPhone

Zibago said:


> In America gun control is as controversial as blasphemy law amendment is in Pakistan the American people are strongly against it they view it as encroachment on their rights
> 
> 
> s



True. People get riled up anytime changing gun laws are discussed.


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## liall

This just gives Trump supporters more power. A sad incident like this is going to have a huge impact on presidential elections

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## Uzair Shafiq [Босс]

It's sad that this happened but i just don't know what to think.
It's probably a false flag and if it isn't that is what we will call it.
I'm afraid for the children of the countries they will bomb. 
Hell they might try to drone us more to satisfy there own agendas the Pakistani government better not forget to shoot them down.


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## WaLeEdK2

What are they going to label him as? He wasn't involved with any terrorist groups so is he mentally ill?


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## iPhone

WaLeEdK2 said:


> What are they going to label him as? He wasn't involved with any terrorist groups so is he mentally ill?


Inspired by isis ideology, pledge allegiance to isis or could be just plain hate for the LGBT.


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## Pumba

Uzair Shafiq [Босс] said:


> It's sad that this happened but i just don't know what to think.
> *It's probably a false flag *and if it isn't that is what we will call it.
> I'm afraid for the children of the countries they will bomb.
> Hell they might try to drone us more to satisfy there own agendas the Pakistani government better not forget to shoot them down.


yeah right 

where were u all these years genius ?

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## AKD

R.I.P


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## RAMPAGE

WTF is this world coming to?


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## Yeezy

Religion of peace at it again. RIP to the dead, they did not deserve this.


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## Winchester

If you have problems about certain things in your adopted homeland.....than just leave the country. 

You feel you don't belong than just go back to your ancestral place !!!

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## I M Sikander

RAMPAGE said:


> WTF is this world coming to?



Nothing new , the world power are doing dirty games in Iraq, Syria, palestine , Afghanistan and in retaliation the effected people take revenge on essay targets. 

By the way he was an american, why the hell we start talking about origin of British and american nationals when they do some thing idiotic.


----------



## Schutz

WaLeEdK2 said:


> What are they going to label him as? He wasn't involved with any terrorist groups so is he mentally ill?


gay isis fan.


----------



## Windows 10

People need to learn to accept difference instead of hurting the people that are different.A truly sad day in history. So devastating and heartbreaking.Thoughts with everyone involved.


----------



## I M Sikander

WaLeEdK2 said:


> What are they going to label him as? He wasn't involved with any terrorist groups so is he mentally ill?



Since he was a Muslim afghan immigrant with American nationality so better not bring the logic of mentally ill , for obvious reasons.


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## Butchcassidy

Time to buy more guns before the democrats start harping about firearm ban

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## jhungary

Blue Marlin said:


> kinda off topic post but i thought you can carry guns on your person?



Not in FL, you will need to apply for a conceal permit to carry firearms in person.

Some State do not require permit, states usually with lax gun law does not require a conceal permit, states such as Kansas, Alaska or Vermont

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## I M Sikander

Winchester said:


> If you have problems about certain things in your adopted homeland.....than just leave the country.
> 
> You feel you don't belong than just go back to your ancestral place !!!



The people of Afghanistan, Syria ,palestian, Kashmir , Libya and many more are saying the same to american pupits and allied forces. 

"Just Leave our country."


----------



## Maler

Devil Soul said:


> An Afghan... For now..




It sounds like a pashtoon name like journalist Amir Mateen??


----------



## SvenSvensonov

Blue Marlin said:


> its not the fact that you "suck" its thats fact that it happened so fast and there was little that could have been done.



It's not the police response, but the American people's apathy towards gun violence and bigotry that concerns me.

December 14, 2012 was the day we were supposed to come together as a nation and solve our gun violence problem. That day 20 children aged 6 to 7 and six teachers were killed in their school:






There was outrage, calls for action, scapegoating and all the usual responses, but this time it was different then before. The weakest and most innocent in our society were killed for no reason and our gun violence problem had to change... it had to.

It didn't and a few weeks later the American people forgot all about Sandy Hook and moved on with their lives.

And here we are today. Another shooting, more calls to end the epidemic of gun violence, more scapegoating and blaming religion and ethnicity, and what'll the response be? Will we finally come together as a nation and put a stop to this problem?



And for those talking about religion and Islam... stop. You're part of the problem too.

It wasn't Islam that killed 50 people and wounded 50 more, it was bigotry and a wicked person.

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## I M Sikander

Windows 10 said:


> People need to learn to accept difference instead of hurting the people that are different.A truly sad day in history. So devastating and heartbreaking.Thoughts with everyone involved.



I wish you felt the same pain when american arm forces killed millions of innocent in Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Pakistan ,Libya, Syria etc etc.

The human race has same color of blood and it bleeds the same way with same pain.


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## Winchester

Ranasikander said:


> The people of Afghanistan, Syria ,palestian, Kashmir , Libya and many more are saying the same to american pupits and allied forces.


 
His actions had nothing to do with his concerns for Palestine, Libya, Kashmir

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...shooter-says-son-possibly-motivated-by-seeing

"The father of the man who reportedly shot up an Orlando, Fla. nightclub overnight claims his son, Omar Mateen, became "very angry" when he saw two men kissing in downtown Miami a few months ago and thinks it may have been part of his son's motive."
. 
. 
. 
Hence my post.....you don't like the lifestyle of people in the WEST....leave !

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## Windows 10

Ranasikander said:


> I wish you felt the same pain when american arm forces killed millions of innocent in Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Pakistan ,Libya, Syria etc etc.
> 
> The human race has same color of blood and it bleeds the same way with same pain.



Muslims has killed more muslims than any on else. This is not the topic. Stop playing victim card here.

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## Gibbs

RIP.. Innocent lives lost


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## Yeezy

I'm just praying this guy has no links to Pakistan. He's being identified as an Afghan but I hope he was not in Pakistan as a refugee or anything at one point in his life.


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## UniverseWatcher

i like how people jump into there conclusions and judgement over a small group, blaming all Muslims are the same, its like saying Hindu men raped a girl now all of them the same. but all aside RIP to the people that died, really sad moment.


----------



## Butchcassidy

Winchester said:


> His actions had nothing to do with his concerns for Palestine, Libya, Kashmir
> 
> http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...shooter-says-son-possibly-motivated-by-seeing
> 
> "The father of the man who reportedly shot up an Orlando, Fla. nightclub overnight claims his son, Omar Mateen, became "very angry" when he saw two men kissing in downtown Miami a few months ago and thinks it may have been part of his son's motive."
> .
> .
> .
> Hence my post.....you don't like the lifestyle of people in the WEST....leave !


He should be sent to prison, le him enjoy some brotherly love...
Oops the bastard died


----------



## Red-Bull

SvenSvensonov said:


> It's not the police response, but the American people's apathy towards gun violence and bigotry that concerns me.
> 
> December 14, 2012 was the day we were supposed to come together as a nation and solve our gun violence problem. That day 20 children aged 6 to 7 and six teachers were killed in their school:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was outrage, calls for action, scapegoating and all the usual responses, but this time it was different then before. The weakest and most innocent in our society were killed for no reason and our gun violence problem had to change... it has to.
> 
> It didn't and a few weeks later the American people forgot all about Sandy Hook and moved on with their lives.
> 
> And here we are today. Another shooting, more calls to end the epidemic of gun violence, more scapegoating and blaming religion and ethnicity, and what'll the response be? Will we finally come together as a nation and put a stop to this problem?


do you really believe that stronger gun laws in the US will stop criminals and terrorists from getting their hands on firearms ? 

hasn't worked in the rest of the world, sure didn't work in Mumbai.

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## WaLeEdK2

Ranasikander said:


> Since he was a Muslim afghan immigrant with American nationality so better not bring the logic of mentally ill , for obvious reasons.



I don't think he's a terrorist in the usual sense. He just hated gay people to the point that he would kill them.


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## Blue Marlin

SvenSvensonov said:


> It's not the police response, but the American people's apathy towards gun violence and bigotry that concerns me.
> 
> December 14, 2012 was the day we were supposed to come together as a nation and solve our gun violence problem. That day 20 children aged 6 to 7 and six teachers were killed in their school:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was outrage, calls for action, scapegoating and all the usual responses, but this time it was different then before. The weakest and most innocent in our society were killed for no reason and our gun violence problem had to change... it has to.
> 
> It didn't and a few weeks later the American people forgot all about Sandy Hook and moved on with their lives.
> 
> And here we are today. Another shooting, more calls to end the epidemic of gun violence, more scapegoating and blaming religion and ethnicity, and what'll the response be? Will we finally come together as a nation and put a stop to this problem?
> 
> 
> 
> And for those talking about religion and Islam... stop. You're part of the problem too.
> 
> It wasn't Islam that killed 50 people and wounded 50 more, it was bigotry and a wicked person.


i got you post wrong apoligies. guns are a part of americain society there the nra is HUGE they will be lobbying even after this event. they dont care... money talks its harsh but sadly true. personally i dont see why anyone should have a gun. take an example from us. no handguns, assault rifels automatic/semi automatic guns only shotguns and rifels and they are restricted by law not to exceed a certain power output. sure security agancies and specailised permits ok. even then its very restricted. heck when obama came to the uk the secret service carry guns but in the uk they were not allowed to have hand guns but only allows 4 as an exception but must be hidden and used only when obsoluetly needed.

if you want my opinion this does not change anything in fact it will make it worse. more and more people will buy guns as "protection"and hate on religious minorities will sky rocket and even worse the orangutan will have some leverage in the elections and will milk the oppertunity to high hell and back.

your in the millitary do you carry a gun in public when out and about?




jhungary said:


> Not in FL, you will need to apply for a conceal permit to carry firearms in person.
> 
> Some State do not require permit, states usually with lax gun law does not require a conceal permit, states such as Kansas, Alaska or Vermont


i find such lack of laws only imaginable in third world countries not in the united states its disgusting


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## Mrc

Too early to declare it a terrorist attack...
He does not seem like the usual suspect... ( no beard))


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## WaLeEdK2

Schutz said:


> gay isis fan.



Lol I'm far from an Isis fan or gay.


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## Indus Pakistan

@A-Team You know our respective people are in some sick competition to be the most notorious in the world. I despair sometimes. As soon as I heard the news I thought please there had better be *no* Pakistani connection. It missed Pakistan by a hair whisker and hit next door - Afghanistan. We need secularism to cleanse this problem.



Maler said:


> name like journalist Amir Mateen


Don't be a bloody idiot. It is found across many ethnic groups.

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## WaLeEdK2

Kaptaan said:


> @A-Team You know our respective people are in some sick competition to be the most notorious in the world. I despair sometimes. As soon as I heard it about I thought please there had better be no Pakistani connection. It missed Pakistan by a hair whisker and hit next door - Afghanistan. We need secularism to cleanse this problem.
> 
> 
> Don't be a bloody idiot. It is found across many ethnic groups.



You try secularization and they'll revolt even more. What they need is an education.


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## Kim Philby

These things are making Donald Trumps win sure!!

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## Indus Pakistan

WaLeEdK2 said:


> secularization


Secularism is *education*. It is not that you should give up your religion but to not impose your faith on others. To accept diversity. To accept those who are differnt from us. To look at what unites us a human beings not what divides us a followers of differant beliefs.

And revolt? "They" already are in state of revolt.

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## ranjeet

RIP and may lord give strength to the families in this time of grief. 

He was on radar of law enforcement agencies... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742025805350506496


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## I M Sikander

Winchester said:


> His actions had nothing to do with his concerns for Palestine, Libya, Kashmir
> 
> http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...shooter-says-son-possibly-motivated-by-seeing
> 
> "The father of the man who reportedly shot up an Orlando, Fla. nightclub overnight claims his son, Omar Mateen, became "very angry" when he saw two men kissing in downtown Miami a few months ago and thinks it may have been part of his son's motive."
> .
> .
> .
> Hence my post.....you don't like the lifestyle of people in the WEST....leave !


If it is about life style then American should also leave the Muslim world and stop imposing their strategic goals all across the globe in the name of democracy and freedom of speech.


----------



## WaLeEdK2

Kaptaan said:


> Secularism is *education*. It is not that you should give up your religion but to not impose your faith on others. To accept diversity. To accept those who are differnt from us. To look at what unites us a human beings not what divides us a followers of differant beliefs.
> 
> And revolt? "They" already are in state of revolt.



To be honest you don't really need secularization to do all of that. Muslims used to accept people. We even used to let Zoroastrians do incest and let them marry their siblings. 

That's why I said revolt even more.

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## Desert Fox

Blue Marlin said:


> i got you post wrong apoligies. guns are a part of americain society there the nra is HUGE they will be lobbying even after this event. they dont care... money talks its harsh but sadly true. personally i dont see why anyone should have a gun. take an example from us. no handguns, assault rifels automatic/semi automatic guns only shotguns and rifels and they are restricted by law not to exceed a certain power output. sure security agancies and specailised permits ok. even then its very restricted. heck when obama came to the uk the secret service carry guns but in the uk they were not allowed to have hand guns but only allows 4 as an exception but must be hidden and used only when obsoluetly needed.
> 
> if you want my opinion this does not change anything in fact it will make it worse. more and more people will buy guns as "protection"and hate on religious minorities will sky rocket and even worse the orangutan will have some leverage in the elections and will milk the oppertunity to high hell and back.
> 
> your in the millitary do you carry a gun in public when out and about?


Guns aren't the issue. Look at Switzerland, they have the lowest crime & murder rate. The problem arises when you have a culturally diverse society where people with disagreeing worldviews will eventually clash with one another and will utilize any means to slaughter each other. More people in the USA die from DUI related accidents than gun crimes. I guess cars and alcohol should be banned too.

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## I M Sikander

Windows 10 said:


> Muslims has killed more muslims than any on else. This is not the topic. Stop playing victim card here.


Stop talking nonsense. In just last 4 decades Americans and Russians have killed millions of Muslims and third world countries.

And by the way 35 million people were killed in WWII and it was not because of Muslims.
It wasnt muslims who nuked Japan , not once but twice.


----------



## Desert Fox

Kim Philby said:


> These things are making Donald Trumps win sure!!


Because these things prove a reality that religiously, culturally, & racially diverse societies cannot function cohesively and will eventually tear itself apart.

Case in point in history:

Arab revolt against Ottoman Turks.

Bangladeshi revolt against West Pakistanis

Kurdish revolt against Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria.

India-Pakistan partition.

And so many more examples.

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## Spring Onion

RIP it is shocking and Being Pakistani my condolences to the grieved families.

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## Blue Marlin

Desert Fox said:


> Guns aren't the issue. Look at Switzerland, they have the lowest crime & murder rate. The problem arises when you have a culturally diverse society where people with disagreeing worldviews will eventually clash with one another and will utilize any means to slaughter each other. More people in the USA die from DUI related accidents than gun crimes. I guess cars and alcohol should be banned too.


dont even go to comparing the usa with switerland.


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## Desert Fox

Blue Marlin said:


> dont even go to comparing the usa with switerland.


Switzerland has guns and you pointed to guns as being the problem.


----------



## A-Team

Kaptaan said:


> @A-Team You know our respective people are in some sick competition to be the most notorious in the world. I despair sometimes. As soon as I heard the news I thought please there had better be *no* Pakistani connection. It missed Pakistan by a hair whisker and hit next door - Afghanistan. We need secularism to cleanse this problem.
> 
> 
> Don't be a bloody idiot. It is found across many ethnic groups.



What a horrible episode and I completely agree with you, we really need a serious discourse.. This stupid clown has now made life miserable the families of those that he killed but also for other muslims and afghans as well.

This is just horrible!

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## I M Sikander

Yeezy said:


> I'm just praying this guy has no links to Pakistan. He's being identified as an Afghan but I hope he was not in Pakistan as a refugee or anything at one point in his life.


He is an American citizen with Afghan origin. But why any one question the origin of any terrorist.

Umer mateen is an American, this is enough to show who he is and where he belongs to.


----------



## Blue Marlin

Desert Fox said:


> Switzerland has guns and you pointed to guns as being the problem.


you forgot the nra too


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## Winchester

Ranasikander said:


> If it is about life style then American should also leave the Muslim world and stop imposing their strategic goals all across the globe in the name of democracy and freedom of speech.


 
This incident had nothing to do what this imbecile felt about American involvement in Muslim countries. 

As the article pointed out, one day he say two gay men kiss and the fuse in him went off.....my guess is he had a homosexual lifestyle himself at some point of time and got out of it or maybe his boyfriend left him. 

Stop connecting dots which don't exist here.


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## Indus Pakistan

And for the record I agree with what @SvenSvensonov said. This was a wicked and evil act by a monster. Nobody and I mean nobody has right to murder others because of their lifestyle. Let it be said I stand behind all the gays in the world. I am red blooded male who loves women. I don't agree with gay lifestyle but hell I will stand by them even when I profoundly disagree with them.

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## Arabic_Ottoman

Blue Marlin said:


> i got you post wrong apoligies. guns are a part of americain society there the nra is HUGE they will be lobbying even after this event. they dont care... money talks its harsh but sadly true. personally i dont see why anyone should have a gun. take an example from us. no handguns, assault rifels automatic/semi automatic guns only shotguns and rifels and they are restricted by law not to exceed a certain power output. sure security agancies and specailised permits ok. even then its very restricted. heck when obama came to the uk the secret service carry guns but in the uk they were not allowed to have hand guns but only allows 4 as an exception but must be hidden and used only when obsoluetly needed.
> 
> if you want my opinion this does not change anything in fact it will make it worse. more and more people will buy guns as "protection"and hate on religious minorities will sky rocket and even worse the orangutan will have some leverage in the elections and will milk the oppertunity to high hell and back.
> 
> your in the millitary do you carry a gun in public when out and about?
> 
> 
> 
> i find such lack of laws only imaginable in third world countries not in the united states its disgusting



I heard a story where someone bought a gun during his lunch-break. laws in the U.S are quite strict in many aspects, yet i don't understand why many people here keep committing crimes!. as a student currently living in Kansas State i remember my University-Email used to have all kind of warnings on campus (shooting, stabbing, rape...)


----------



## waz

Terrible, my condolences to the families who lost loved ones.

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## A-Team

Kaptaan said:


> Secularism is *education*. It is not that you should give up your religion but to not impose your faith on others. To accept diversity. To accept those who are differnt from us. To look at what unites us a human beings not what divides us a followers of differant beliefs.
> 
> And revolt? "They" already are in state of revolt.



Intolerance and hate has reached an unbelievable level in muslim societies. You know one can get lynched for mentioning Secularism without understanding that the initial muslim societies flourished because of its Secularist nature.

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## Desert Fox

Blue Marlin said:


> you forgot the nra too


You said guns are the issue. If that's the case why aren't such shootings taking place in Swtizerland then?


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## A-Team

ranjeet said:


> RIP and may lord give strength to the families in this time of grief.
> 
> He was on radar of law enforcement agencies...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742025805350506496



I can't look at his face, I am so mad! What a douchebag.

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## SQ8

It wont matter what inspired this man. What will matter will be the reposts upon reposts of verses from the Quran asking for violence. The conservative right in the US does not care where and what was revealed and for what purpose because they are right in asserting that terrorists do not care either. 

We are slowly being pushed towards the clash of religions and it will come. There are many sane Muslims and Sane Christians and Jews who can see that and scream for action but in this case hatred will be the winner.



ranjeet said:


> RIP and may lord give strength to the families in this time of grief.
> 
> He was on radar of law enforcement agencies...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742025805350506496


Then you wonder why they never acted. I keep compiling profiles of people on FB who support terrorist or terrorist promoting organizations like Daesh and Hizb-ut-tahrir so that we can provide those profiles to law enforcement to investigate; yet not just in Pakistan but here in the US as well.. it seems no action is taken.

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## I M Sikander

Winchester said:


> This incident had nothing to do what this imbecile felt about American involvement in Muslim countries.
> 
> As the article pointed out, one day he say two gay men kiss and the fuse in him went off.....my guess is he had a homosexual lifestyle himself at some point of time and got out of it or maybe his boyfriend left him.
> 
> Stop connecting dots which don't exist here.


Guys like Umer mateen are Isis inspired and Isis is the menace which is made in response to american policies in middle East and across the world.

First it was charlie hebdo and then Paris and now america. It's a chain reaction. It's tragic but as you soa, so shall you reap.


----------



## Desert Fox

Red-Bull said:


> do you really believe that stronger gun laws in the US will stop criminals and terrorists from getting their hands on firearms ?
> 
> hasn't worked in the rest of the world, sure didn't work in Mumbai.


*Didn't work in Paris either where they had fully automatic assault rifles*. Hell, in Belgium they got their hands on something more deadly than a gun, a bomb to mass slaughter people. And these are countries with strict gun laws.* Even the most gun totting state in America does not permit fully automatic assault rifles for civilians.*

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## Blue Marlin

Desert Fox said:


> You said guns are the issue. If that's the case why aren't such shootings taking place in Swtizerland then?


yes wise guy guns are the issue but i also mention the nra "lobbying" is the issue do you think swiss authorities would give a gun to a physcopath?? the usa did and they knew he wasnt fit to have one and yet had got more than one and went on a rampage in a cinema. killing people. when was the last time some swiss guy killed somone with a gun? hardly ever the usa worrying frequently there are more factors to gun crime in the usa such as poverty, video games, police brutality ethnic hate etc.....


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

Ranasikander said:


> If it is about life style then American should also leave the Muslim world and stop imposing their strategic goals all across the globe in the name of democracy and freedom of speech.



And Muslims should leave non-Muslim worlds, right?
Muslims should not impose their values, by shooting people with different views?
I guess You are a Trump supporter...

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## Desert Fox

Blue Marlin said:


> yes wise guy guns are the issue but i also mention the nra "lobbying" is the issue do you think swiss authorities would give a gun to a physcopath?? the usa did and they knew he wasnt fit to have one and yet had got more than one and went on a rampage in a cinema. killing people. when was the last time some swiss guy killed somone with a gun? hardly ever the usa worrying frequently there are more factors to gun crime in the usa such as poverty, video games, police brutality ethnic hate etc.....


Because the Swiss don't allow into their borders people who are potentially susceptible to extremist worldviews en mass, wise guy.

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## Blue Marlin

Desert Fox said:


> Because the Swiss don't allow into their borders people who are potentially susceptible to extremist worldviews, wise guy.
> 
> State of Nevada has the least gun crimes but the highest number of guns in possesion of civilians. But they are also a 90% White state.


ok so in that case everyone who is not white leave the country


----------



## Winchester

Blue Marlin said:


> yes wise guy guns are the issue but i also mention the nra "lobbying" is the issue do you think swiss authorities would give a gun to a physcopath?? the usa did and they knew he wasnt fit to have one and yet had got more than one and went on a rampage in a cinema. killing people. when was the last time some swiss guy killed somone with a gun? hardly ever the usa worrying frequently there are more factors to gun crime in the usa such as poverty, video games, police brutality ethnic hate etc.....



I remember last year a guy in London slashing at people with his knife but couldn't hurt more than a single person. 

What if that guy had an AR-15??


----------



## I M Sikander

Desert Fox said:


> Because these things prove a reality that religious





A.P. Richelieu said:


> And Muslims should leave non-Muslim worlds, right?
> Muslims should not impose their values, by shooting people with different views?
> I guess You are a Trump supporter...


Its the American , NATO and Russians who are killing muslims in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Libya , Pakistan and else where.

And yes you are right, american forces and it's proxies should leave the Muslim world. 
For me Donald Trump is nothing. I am not american, so care a damn about jokers like triumph.



A.P. Richelieu said:


> Muslims should not impose their values, by shooting people with different views?


Americans should also not impose their life style , culture and democracy on muslimsby killings millions in Iraq, libya, syria, Afghanistan , palestine etc etc.


----------



## Blue Marlin

Winchester said:


> I remember last year a guy in London slashing at people with his knife but couldn't hurt more than a single person.
> 
> What if that guy had an AR-15??


you cant the maximum you can get is an ak from northern ireland which is where most guns come from as you can carry hand guns there for protection which is due to the good friday agreement and guns control laws there are much looser there as compared to mainland uk


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## A.P. Richelieu

Ranasikander said:


> Stop talking nonsense. In just last 4 decades Americans and Russians have killed millions of Muslims and third world countries.
> 
> And by the way 35 million people were killed in WWII and it was not because of Muslims.
> It wasnt muslims who nuked Japan , not once but twice.



The majority of Muslims killed in Afghanistan and Iraq were killed by other Muslims.
I dare You to show one credible source claiming otherwise.

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## Desert Fox

Blue Marlin said:


> ok so in that case everyone who is not white leave the country


You should ask the French how a bunch of fifth columnist terrorists (who they themselves allowed in their own country) were able to get their hands on fully automatic assault rifles to mow down civilians? Or how were the Belgian fifth columnists able to get their hands on Bombs to blow up an airport? Hmm, *shall we blame the bomb for killing tens of people or do we blame those who planted them and set them off?*

*If we go by your logic we blame the home made bomb for killing people and not the terrorists who planted the bomb.*

When you allow dangerous people with opposing worldviews into you country then thing's are bound to go sour. Guns or no guns. Simple.

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## Winchester

Blue Marlin said:


> you cant the maximum you can get is an ak from northern ireland which is where most guns come from as you can carry hand guns there for protection which is due to the good friday agreement


 
So gun control worked


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Blue Marlin said:


> ok so in that case everyone who is not white leave the country


You mean this?


----------



## I M Sikander

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The majority of Muslims killed in Afghanistan and Iraq were killed by other Muslims.
> I dare You to show one credible source claiming otherwise.


Stop acting like an dumb guy. So who the fu...k has killed millions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya etc. 
If american are there for honey moon then they better leave and Pis....s else where in their land.

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## Blue Marlin

Desert Fox said:


> You should ask the French how a bunch of fifth columnist terrorists (who they themselves allowed in their own country) were able to get their hands on fully automatic assault rifles to mow down civilians? Or how were the Belgian fifth columnists able to get their hands on Bombs to blow up an airport? Hmm, *shall we blame the bomb for killing tens of people or do we blame those who planted them and set them off?*
> 
> *If we go by your logic we blame the home made bomb for killing people and not the terrorists who planted the bomb.*
> 
> When you allow dangerous people with opposing worldviews into you country then thing's are bound to go sour. Guns or no guns. Simple.


what kind of logic is that, dont twist my words you might as well say blame the bullet not the person pulling the trigger.
if your saying 90% of nevada is white and has the least number of gun crimes, your saying its not the whites problem its the minority so get rid of them.


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## I M Sikander

A.P. Richelieu said:


> And Muslims should not impose their values by killing BILLIONS in Europe and the U.S.


Haha , killings billions in Europe. I am sure you are talking about WWII in which 35 millions were killed. I think it was hitler and uncle Sam, not OBL and muslims.


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## Mav3rick

Is it possible that this guy was gay and when that the shooting was in revenge of being let down or being rejected/dumped by his lover?


----------



## hussain0216

A.P. Richelieu said:


> And Muslims should not impose their values by killing BILLIONS in Europe and the U.S.



Billions??????


----------



## Fireurimagination

Physopath + intolrent religious brainwashing + easily avaliable firearms = disaster for sure

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## Indus Pakistan

Ranasikander said:


> Stop acting like an dumb guy. So who the fu...k has killed millions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya etc.
> If american are there for honey moon then they better leave and Pis....s else where in their land.


You are aware that you appear to be looking like a *apologist* for this scumbag who killed 50 today if not condoning his murderous spree.

There may or may not be merit in what you say but right now and this thread is *not* the place for it.


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## I M Sikander

Mav3rick said:


> Is it possible that this guy was gay and when that the shooting was in revenge of being let down or being rejected/dumped by his lover?


May be he was Pathan Bhai. Just a joke.

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## hussain0216

Mav3rick said:


> Is it possible that this guy was gay and when that the shooting was in revenge of being let down or being rejected/dumped by his lover?



Yes! Lets go with this

Nothing to see here folks, he was just a spurned sausage smoker.


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## I M Sikander

Kaptaan said:


> You are aware that you appear to be looking like a *apologist* for this scumbag who killed 50 today if not condoning his murderous spree.
> 
> There may or may not be merit in what you say but right now and this thread is *not* the place for it.


I am not justifying the act of this idiot. I am just saying what's happening in Charlie Hebdo, Paris, and now america , is the repercussions of american policies world wide.

I have no sympathy with any killer , whether he is Umer mateen or any white person wearing american and NATO uniform.


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## Blue Marlin

Kaptaan said:


> You mean this?


are you sugesting the red indians kick out whos not a red indian out? also during that time there was no one to help them even in austrailia. there was no law back then.


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## hussain0216

Ranasikander said:


> I am not justifying the act of this idiot. I am just saying what's happening in Charlie Hebdo, Paris, and now america , is the repercussions of american policies world wide.
> 
> I have no sympathy with any killer , whether he is Umer mateen or any white person wearing american and NATO uniform.



The chickens coming home to roost argument


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## Falcon29

Wow, unbelievable, there is already social tension in society between Christians and Liberals regarding LGBT topics, transgender restrooms, etc....Let them discuss and solve it, you have to respect majority, period. Let your God judge them if you do believe in God, didn't that same God destroy the tribe of Lot for being gay!? So why can't he do it now!? Because he isn't real, and those stories were made up to throw blame on natural disasters. I did not expect this lame kind of attack to occur in the US at this time. So shameful, RIP to victims.

Do not take domestic legal situation into your hands at all!

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## LeGenD

Clash of ideals, I would say.

Not condoning the killings in any way or form, but I won't shy away from expressing my displeasure of perversion of societal values in the form of LGBT movement. I despise the filth of LGBT and Terrorism equally.



A.P. Richelieu said:


> And Muslims should not impose their values by killing BILLIONS in Europe and the U.S.


Billions?

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## iPhone

Mav3rick said:


> Is it possible that this guy was gay and when that the shooting was in revenge of being let down or being rejected/dumped by his lover?


As a matter of facy, yes, he might be gay himself. There are a lot of closet homesexulals who hate and absolutely hate open homosexuality in the society. I've seen some crazy shit coming out of their mouths.

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## Indus Pakistan

Desert Fox said:


> I don't know, maybe you should ask the Swiss


Maybe, just maybe because the Swiss are known the world over as "Mr Neutrals"? Maybe, just maybe because they never involve in anything outside their borders other than providing peacekeepers or Red Cross?

And stop using the this incident to peddle your far right agenda. Your no better than@Ranasikander

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## Hassan_Ishtiaq

A.P. Richelieu said:


> And Muslims should leave non-Muslim worlds, right?
> Muslims should not impose their values, by shooting people with different views?
> I guess You are a Trump supporter...


Why should we leave? Your lot colonized the Muslim world and today you reap what you sowed.

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## A.P. Richelieu

Ranasikander said:


> Stop acting like an dumb guy. So who the fu...k has killed millions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya etc.
> If american are there for honey moon then they better leave and Pis....s else where in their land.



It is the Muslims who has killed most of the Muslims.
Credible sources show about 50,000 Iraqi killed by US forces.
35,000 of those belonged to the Iraqi armed forces.

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## Gibbs

Mav3rick said:


> Is it possible that this guy was gay and when that the shooting was in revenge of being let down or being rejected/dumped by his lover?



Possibly.. There is a big chance that the murderer himself was a closeted homosexual.. Throughout history the most homophobic people have indeed turned out to be gay or have homosexual tendencies, From pedophile Clergy to more famous people like J Edgar Hoover, Famously known as the notorious chief of the FBI.. Who led a crusade against gay people in the US later to found out that he had a male lover

I find that as long as you're comfortable with your own sexuality you need not fear about the sexual preference of others, If you do that means you're not sure about yourself

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## A.P. Richelieu

Hassan_Ishtiaq said:


> Why should we leave? Your lot colonized the Muslim world and today you reap what you sowed.



That was a question, posed to show the stupidity.


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## Red-Bull

Desert Fox said:


> Because these things prove a reality that religiously, culturally, & racially diverse societies cannot function cohesively and will eventually tear itself apart.
> 
> Case in point in history:
> 
> Arab revolt against Ottoman Turks.
> 
> Bangladeshi revolt against West Pakistanis
> 
> Kurdish revolt against Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria.
> 
> India-Pakistan partition.
> 
> And so many more examples.


I'd say religiously and culturally incompatible societies and ideologies can not function without problems of violence, in the case of muslim immigration to the liberal west, there is only a problem with the hardcore religious ones, for the rest, I know some of the most liberal (not sjw retards, like real liberal) and not ultra religious muslims in the US, great people, love to party etc

but ultra orthodox religious sunnis (sallafi/wahhabi) *are *a problem, these guys are *always *a hair's breadth from going insane and murdering people.. this has to be, and must be spoken about openly without fear of being labelled racist or bigot or islamophobe.

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## hussain0216

iPhone said:


> As a matter of facy, yes, he might be gay himself. There are a lot of closet homesexulals who hate and absolutely hate open homosexuality in the society. *I've seen some crazy shit coming out of their mouths*.



You need to look away!

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## Hassan_Ishtiaq

A.P. Richelieu said:


> And Muslims should not impose their values by* killing BILLIONS* in Europe and the U.S.


Stop talking out of your *** You people invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and you have destroyed Syria. You created ISIS, you created Al-CIAda and your created Taliban. These are your children.


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## Falcon29

iPhone said:


> As a matter of facy, yes, he might be gay himself. There are a lot of closet homesexulals who hate and absolutely hate open homosexuality in the society. I've seen some crazy shit coming out of their mouths.



I thought that too, upon seeing initial reports, that it must have been someone lashed out at their ex-boyfriend and wanted to do murder-suicide and make a scene. That quickly wasn't supported once this became a mass shooting, it's clear what the intention here is. Authorities are not watching the right people, they're watching people who are educated/liberal. They need to watch the uneducated people, that seem unstable to an extent.

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## Fireurimagination

He was an American born in America I don't think he hated America, he hated gays and was most probably driven by religion


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## Hassan_Ishtiaq

Kaptaan said:


> Maybe, just maybe because the Swiss are known the world over as "Mr Neutrals"? Maybe, just maybe because they never involve in anything outside their borders other than providing peacekeepers or Red Cross?
> 
> And stop using the this incident to peddle your far right agenda. Your no better than@Ranasikander


He's another one of those pathetic liberal White wannabe sellout Pakistanis. People like him need to be stripped of their Pakistani nationality.


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## Blue Marlin

Desert Fox said:


> I don't know, maybe you should ask the Swiss why there aren't that many people shouting "Allahu Akbar" and blowing them up. Maybe they'll tell you its because they haven't allowed those people in their country en mass nor allowed them to possess firearms.
> 
> BTW, you failed to answer my question:
> 
> *How did fifth columnist citizens in France get their hands on fully automatic firearms? Doesn't France have strong gun control laws?* Did the guns somehow make their way into the hands of the terrorists by itself?


thats france, if its easy for migrants to get in to france then it can be easy to get a gun. we [ the uk] are an island and its much harder to get that kind of weapon into the uk. compare americain gun laws to british gun laws. the only thing you dont need a licence for in the uk is an airgun but you have to be 18+ to have one, and still it cant be more than 12ft.lbp in power. and can only be purchased from specailised dealers who will breifly interview and can refuse to sell you one if you are unfit to have one.

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## iPhone

hussain0216 said:


> You need to look away!


I would have laughed and put a emote but it's not the time and place for it. But that was good though.


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## The Sandman

R.I.P its horrible...


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## Falcon29

Hassan_Ishtiaq said:


> Stop talking out of your *** You people invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and you have destroyed Syria. You created ISIS, you created Al-CIAda and your created Taliban. These are your children.



First of all, ignore him, he's pretty religious himself, and religion drives him into such feelings. Second point I want to make bro, sure that all did happen, but lots of locals/Muslim nations were working along, and even cases such as Iraq war, it wouldn't happen without consent of local nations. I agree the region has been through misery, what people need to do is calm down, take a break from conflict and develop their nations. 

However with the aggressive approach everyone takes in the ME, it's hard to see that being possible.

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## Hassan_Ishtiaq

LeGenD said:


> Billions?


Now these people will re-write history and claim Muslims colonized them and murdered "billions" of them.


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## Indus Pakistan

Blue Marlin said:


> are you sugesting the red indians kick out whos not a red indian out? also during that time there was no one to help them even in austrailia. there was no law back then.


No. I am reminding people that history of immigration, migration has involved all sorts and it is manifestly wrong to attribute certain traits to certain demographics based on select rendering of the present.


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## Sparkle229

A life lost yet again


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## Hassan_Ishtiaq

Falcon29 said:


> First of all, ignore him, he's pretty religious himself, and religion drives him into such feelings. Second point I want to make bro, sure that all did happen, but lots of locals/Muslim nations were working along, and even cases such as Iraq war, it wouldn't happen without consent of local nations. I agree the region has been through misery, what people need to do is calm down, take a break from conflict and develop their nations.
> 
> However with the aggressive approach everyone takes in the ME, it's hard to see that being possible.


All of those corrupt regimes in the ME are propped up by non other than these Whites and their wannabe Secular terrorist supporters, so i will blame them for those traitorous regimes as well.

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## LeGenD

A.P. Richelieu said:


> It is the Muslims who has killed most of the Muslims.
> Credible sources show about 50,000 Iraqi killed by US forces.
> 35,000 of those belonged to the Iraqi armed forces.


Death toll is much higher.


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## Desert Fox

Kaptaan said:


> Maybe, just maybe because the Swiss are known the world over as "Mr Neutrals"? Maybe, just maybe because they never involve in anything outside their borders other than providing peacekeepers or Red Cross?


How does that justify massacring people who let you into their country and gave you equal rights, equal liberties, and viewed you as human beings on par with themselves?? *Stop excusing murderers and rapists.*



Kaptaan said:


> And stop using the this incident to peddle your far right agenda. Your no better than@Ranasikander


I'm not. I was responding to blue marlins claim that guns are responsible for killing people.

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## Falcon29

Hassan_Ishtiaq said:


> All of those corrupt regimes in the ME are propped up by non other than these Whites and their wannabe Secular terrorist supporters, so i will blame them for those traitorous regimes as well.



Don't get emotional, it's not 'whites'. Huge segment of white population is isolationist and anti-neocon. There are many brown people who are full on neocon here, it's not a matter of race. But, yes, corruption needs to be tackled overseas, by the locals of course. Nobody needs foreign driven agenda that won't work for them.

This guy(shooter) has to be mentally ill or unstable. You don't just decide to shoot up a gay club randomly when you live in the area your whole life. And how was he able to create explosive vest? Without authorities catching on to it? What are the authorities doing here?


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## Clutch

This will ensure Trumps victory and the backlash against American Muslims is going to be very significant this time.

Time for Muslim Americans and the hindus and Sikhs who incorrectly get identified as muslims to prepare for the backlash.

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## Desert Fox

Falcon29 said:


> First of all, ignore him, he's pretty religious himself, and religion drives him into such feelings. Second point I want to make bro, sure that all did happen, but lots of locals/Muslim nations were working along, and even cases such as Iraq war, it wouldn't happen without consent of local nations. I agree the region has been through misery, what people need to do is calm down, take a break from conflict and develop their nations.
> 
> However with the aggressive approach everyone takes in the ME, it's hard to see that being possible.


These idiots will never self reflect and see how they can improve themselves. They would rather blame the world for their misery. Muslims back stab Muslims. Europe and America do what's in their interests. Why can't Muslims? Oh, right, because they are busy pulling each other down.

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## Blue Marlin

Desert Fox said:


> When you allow dangerous people with opposing worldviews into you country then thing's are bound to go sour. Guns or no guns. Simple.


so when pakistanis came to the uk in 60's did things go sour? not really no only a little which was swiftly dealt with. it is very hard for a country to monitor each and everyperson coming to theri country. in this case the guy who killed these people was on the "radar" but why no action?


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## iPhone

Any reports on where he purchased the Ar-15 and the ranges he went to to practice.


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## C130

Killing homosexuals is an act of compassion. Omar was just being compassionate.


Homosexuality and LGBT is degenerate for humanity.

whether you shoot them,stone them,throw them off buildings, or hang them, it's compassion

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## lightoftruth

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742040700116717568

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742046572284936197


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## A.P. Richelieu

LeGenD said:


> Death toll is much higher.



Yes, but those are the killed attributed to the US forces.
There is no fixed number everyone agrees to but neither the US nor Russia has killed millions of Muslims.


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## Falcon29

Desert Fox said:


> These idiots will never self reflect and see how they can improve themselves. They would rather blame the world for their misery. Muslims back stab Muslims. Europe and America do what's in their interests. Why can't Muslims? Oh, right, because they are busy pulling each other down.



Don't be harsh, but yeah they need to self reflect. And exactly what you said, Muslims don't do what's in their interest, they have no ambitions, they'd rather just follow lead or create tension within each other community. This is why I always fascinated with why there is big focus on 'Dawah' and teaching Islam, as if that achieves anything or is more important than developing your society or looking after your interest. They won't listen unfortunately, they will continue sticking to missionary activities thinking this will bring them any sort of success.

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## iPhone

Blue Marlin said:


> so when pakistanis came to the uk in 60's did things go sour? not really no only a little which was swiftly dealt with. it is very hard for a country to monitor each and everyperson coming to theri country. in this case the guy who killed these people was on the "radar" but why no action? he was a police officer so why was he not screened then?


He was not a police officer, it's just some unauthorized nypd shirts hes wearing that anyone can buy from the I Love NY tourist stores in nyc.

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## Blue Marlin

iPhone said:


> Any reports on where he purchased the Ar-15 and the ranges he went to to practice.


thanks i deleted that part


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## Desert Fox

Red-Bull said:


> I'd say religiously and culturally incompatible societies and ideologies can not function without problems of violence, in the case of muslim immigration to the liberal west, there is only a problem with the hardcore religious ones, for the rest, I know some of the most liberal (not sjw retards, like real liberal) and not ultra religious muslims in the US, great people, love to party etc


True, but those people are in a minority. I don't use rare exceptions to determine the direction of the general population of a specific group of people if their isn't concrete evidence to prove that those rare cases are a general trend. On the whole, there is a threat level that exists with a certain group of people who's ideology you are at war with.



Red-Bull said:


> but ultra orthodox religious sunnis (sallafi/wahhabi) *are *a problem, these guys are *always *a hair's breadth from going insane and murdering people.. this has to be, and must be spoken about openly without fear of being labelled racist or bigot or islamophobe.


It's not gonna happen anytime soon. These idiot Liberals are going to destroy their own Liberal societies with their own hands. They rather be slaughtered and raped by foreign enemies than be labeled "racist". Apparently, being called a Nazi is more painful than being beheaded.

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## SQ8

A.P. Richelieu said:


> And Muslims should not impose their values by killing BILLIONS in Europe and the U.S.


When did the billions die? I see no facebook trend for it. 
I do remember europe killing millions of jews though.

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## CHACHA"G"

*RIP
Its horrible , I just don't have any words , 


Note: Please take it as a request , We already have enough hatred in world and different societies , please don't use this horrible act to spread hate in-between Different Religions

Thank you all*

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## A.P. Richelieu

Oscar said:


> When did the billions die? I see no facebook trend for it.
> I do remember europe killing millions of jews though.



It was just a number chosen at random, like the numbers presented regarding casualties in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
I think the point is made, so I will delete the post.


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## SQ8

A.P. Richelieu said:


> It was just a number chosen at random, like the numbers presented regarding casualties in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
> I think the point is made, so I will delete the post.


What point is that? The fact that mass hysteria helps or that hatred does?


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## anon45

liall said:


> This just gives Trump supporters more power. A sad incident like this is going to have a huge impact on presidential elections



Not really, its too far out. If it happened in November or October i'd agree.


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## Desert Fox

Blue Marlin said:


> so when pakistanis came to the uk in 60's did things go sour? not really no only a little which was swiftly dealt with. it is very hard for a country to monitor each and everyperson coming to theri country. in this case the guy who killed these people was on the "radar" but why no action?


Well, that's the trouble you will have, a potential fifth column. Modern Liberal societies are digging their own graves because they view all of humanity as being on par with them (universal egalitarianism).

(Hypothetical scenario) Its like Pakistan allowing into its borders millions of Hindu indians, giving them citizenship and the right to possess firearms under the belief of universal egalitarianism, and then going to war with india or hindu extremists and not expecting those hindus within its border to form a potential fifth column. No kidding that's a recipe for disaster.

What liberals don't understand is that respect and honor are something that is *earned*, not handed out like candy. You can't just start respecting and honoring people who never earned that privilege and just hopped off the refugee boat, that they are equal to you just because they bleed red. You have these people coming into your countries who never contributed to your societies but are now reaping the benefits of the citizens of that country while also harboring hate.


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## ranjeet

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742050787774332929


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## A.P. Richelieu

Oscar said:


> What point is that? The fact that mass hysteria helps or that hatred does?


No, it was a reaction to the reiterated claim that U.S. is killing millions of Muslims.


----------



## temporary12345

This shooter ,Omar Mateen:

1. Called 911 declaring his allegiance to IS.

2. Was on terror watchlist for last 5 years. FBI could not do anything against him as he has not acted on his expressed belief before today, and freedom of expression is a fundamental right.

3. Seeing Gay kissers was probably only a trigger. Someone selling porks-chop could have been a trigger on any other day.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...b-shooting-injuries-reported-at-pulse-orland/

https://www.rt.com/usa/346364-orlando-club-shooter-terrorism/


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## Desert Fox

Hassan_Ishtiaq said:


> He's another one of those pathetic* liberal White wannabe* sellout Pakistanis. People like him need to be stripped of their Pakistani nationality.


Wow, so i'm a liberal now. @Kaptaan your home boy just called me a liberal  I think that title was intended for you.


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## SQ8

A.P. Richelieu said:


> No, it was a reaction to the reiterated claim that U.S. is killing millions of Muslims.


And there will be those reactions as long as there are counter reactions. Humanity has done horrible things to itself, more so in the name of being justified in the past.


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## Falcon29

CHACHA"G" said:


> *RIP
> Its horrible , I just don't have any words ,
> 
> 
> Note: Please take it as a request , We already have enough hatred in world and different societies , please don't use this horrible act to spread hate in-between Different Religions
> 
> Thank you all*



Well that won't happen, one, because Christians/Jews don't consider Islam to be an actual Abrahamic faith, they believe Mohammed was a false prophet. And this incident will be politicized, especially in political arena, but also among religious popular circles. What's weird is that Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture all instruct their followers to execute gays. Of course many of them are in denial about that, and will say that's fundamentalist approach. No, that is the Abrahamic approach.

Ideally Abrahamic religion should be banned all together as it's not compatible with modern world, or at the very least, Abrahamic faith adherents need to be reeducated on the principles of their religions, and then make choice to keep it or leave it.

The Christian/Jewish vs. Muslim drama will never end as long as these religions cause enormous general divide among society, and the people will continue blabbering about one religion being inspired by Satan, and how God is going to defeat so and so, etc....All this hatred is very simple as a result of these ancient ME religions.

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## SQ8

Hassan_Ishtiaq said:


> He's another one of those pathetic liberal White wannabe sellout Pakistanis. People like him need to be stripped of their Pakistani nationality.


Why dont you give up your UK nationality rather than be a hypocrite.



Falcon29 said:


> Well that won't happen, one, because Christians/Jews don't consider Islam to be an actual Abrahamic faith, they believe Mohammed was a false prophet. And this incident will be politicized, especially in political arena, but also among religious popular circles. What's weird is that Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture all instruct their followers to execute gays. Of course many of them are in denial about that, and will say that's fundamentalist approach. No, that is the Abrahamic approach.
> 
> Ideally Abrahamic religion should be banned all together as it's not compatible with modern world, or at the very least, Abrahamic faith adherents need to be reeducated on the principles of their religions, and then make choice to keep it or leave it.


Really? Considering Ive read the Quran with exegesis twice over, I have yet to find this "execute" command.
Can you back your claim up?


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Why dont you give up your UK nationality rather than be a hypocrite.
> 
> 
> Really? Considering Ive read the Quran with exegesis twice over, I have yet to find this "execute" command.
> Can you back your claim up?



Whats the mood against muslims in texas in general ?


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## Red-Bull

Desert Fox said:


> True, but those people are in a minority. I don't use rare exceptions to determine the direction of the general population of a specific group of people if their isn't concrete evidence to prove that those rare cases are a general trend. On the whole, there is a threat level that exists with a certain group of people who's ideology you are at war with.


yep, but they need to get over the PC culture, not only is it literally murdering you guys (you a US citizen, right ?), but all the weakness and inaction is also emboldening the enemy because the backlash from these kinds of incidents in the west invariably seem to take a distinct left turn eventually, and then it starts blaming everyone and everything else but the real problem. 

you can see that shit sprouting here already, pathetic 



Desert Fox said:


> It's not gonna happen anytime soon. These idiot Liberals are going to destroy their own Liberal societies with their own hands. They rather be slaughtered and raped by foreign enemies than be labeled "racist". Apparently, being called a Nazi is more painful than being beheaded.


the worst thing about the inevitable fallout from this is that good people might get in trouble

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## WaLeEdK2

Oscar said:


> Why dont you give up your UK nationality rather than be a hypocrite.
> 
> 
> Really? Considering Ive read the Quran with exegesis twice over, I have yet to find this "execute" command.
> Can you back your claim up?



Thing is people take some of the verses from the Quran out of context. The verses associated with violent behaviour were sent down due to the brutality the Muslims were facing. The verses are to be only used when you experience the same situation. Furthermore, the peaceful verses are completely blind eyed. For example, the verse were Muslims are commanded to protect churches and synagogues.

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## SQ8

Bratva said:


> Whats the mood against muslims in texas in general ?


Fairly calm and dont care. Its the same as one wearing jeans and shorts to the heart of southern punjab and finding some extremists who hate that when trying to put Texas as redneck country.

As such, it is a very welcoming place.



WaLeEdK2 said:


> Thing is people take some of the verses from the Quran out of context. The verses associated with violent behaviour were sent down due to the brutality the Muslims were facing. The verses are to be only used when you experience the same situation. Furthermore, the peaceful verses are completely blind eyed. For example, the verse were Muslims are commanded to protect churches and synagogues.


Quoting out of context is a long standing thing for many conflicts.


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## Falcon29

Oscar said:


> Really? Considering Ive read the Quran with exegesis twice over, I have yet to find this "execute" command.
> Can you back your claim up?



Let's not pretend Quran is the only Islamic source for rulings there is, that's simply not true, with all due respect. Mohammed taught the Sharia by means of oral tradition. Much of the Islamic faith guidelines, Sunnah, laws, do not come from Quran. They come from Hadith. And all schools of thought are in agreement about that, and also in agreement that the companions of the Prophet endorsed death penalty for the condition of homosexuality. And there are examples of that in the verified Hadith's. Of course you may not choose to believe in Hadith, but then you might as well not believe in much of the Sunnah, and other teachings that derive from Hadith. And some schools of thought will say it's entering disbelief if you reject Hadith. 

Me myself, I'm not in favor of that, I'm an agnostic-atheist. So I have no agenda here. I'm bothered however, by the denial Christians, Muslims and Jews put themselves through, regarding key tenets of their religions. This incident will now be used by some Christian and Jewish circles, to emphasize how Islam is brutal, and how it's a religion of Satan, because of certain laws in Islam, such as apostasy or homosexuality judicial punishments. But, those same people don't know, Islam just brought that down from Judaism, actually much of Islam is literal taken down from Judaism. Jews know what is controversial in their religion, so they get rid of the most controversial things, such as the Talmud scriptures, to try projecting different meaning to their religion. Which just simply proves, by taking logical route, of disbanding much of scripture that supposedly came from their God, that they deny their God and treat their religion as if it's a man made religion. Otherwise they would keep the controversial scriptures since it's supposedly from a divine source. My argument makes absolutely sense, it's just semi-religious people don't like facing the reality here. 

And to expand on my point, because they took logical route, now they have credibility to attack Islam, and Muslim's will be unfairly attacked over scripture that is actually originating from the original Abrahamic/Biblical scriptures that Jews and Christians profess to follow. So while I don't have positive views on Abrahamic faiths, my point here actually is beneficial for Muslims. 

Now regarding the biblical scriptures on homosexuality:


Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Romans 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

......
......

PS, none of that is 'biblical', it's actually all Jewish scripture which Christians use. Hence this is product of both religions. Some will say it is old testament and no longer relevant, yeah no. Like I said, you took logical approach to clean up your religion. When there is no such permission by the supposed 'Divine Lord' that you allowed you to do that.



WaLeEdK2 said:


> Thing is people take some of the verses from the Quran out of context. The verses associated with violent behaviour were sent down due to the brutality the Muslims were facing. The verses are to be only used when you experience the same situation. Furthermore, the peaceful verses are completely blind eyed. For example, the verse were Muslims are commanded to protect churches and synagogues.



I'm an agnostic-atheist and not taking anything out of context. I'm speaking about general established guidelines for society, among all three Abrahamic religions. They are all not favorable towards homosexuality, and they all actually implement death penalty for it. Even one of the most important stories in all the three religions, the story of Lot and his tribe, make it very clear where the Abrahamic God stands in regards to homosexuality. 

Instead of being in denial, why can't the educated of you just admit you perceive these religions as man-made religions? Or are you guys claiming the 'Divine God' made some mistakes when condemning gays, and many other things? A perfect God can't make such mistakes. So what is going on here, is these followers of these religions made up their own God, and hence have no issue altering their own God's views, and suddenly claiming he no longer stands for such things, or that he has now become a moderate figure because we're entering modern times....

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## Desert Fox

Red-Bull said:


> yep, but they need to get over the PC culture, not only is it literally murdering you guys (you a US citizen, right ?), but all the weakness and inaction is also emboldening the enemy because the backlash from these kinds of incidents in the west invariably seem to take a distinct left turn eventually, and then it starts blaming everyone and everything else but the real problem.
> 
> you can see that shit sprouting here already, pathetic


Unfortunately, judging from past events, this trend is going to continue unless someone will take lead and stand up to the BS of Leftist imposed political correctness and Universal Egalitarianism. That someone might be Trump, though even if he gets elected i doubt four years of a Trump presidency would change 70 years of Leftist infiltration of American society. Maybe we're doomed. I hope not, but lets wait and see.

*The wolf doesn't abstain from attacking a sheep because it's vulnerable. Only the sheepdog keeps the wolf at bay. And until that sheepdog is allowed to do its job, the sheep will remain vulnerable to the wolf's attacks.*

Reminds me of this scene from American Sniper
(notice how his description of the sheep fits the modern day Leftists/Liberals of the West ):







Red-Bull said:


> the worst thing about the inevitable fallout from this is that good people might get in trouble


History is repeating itself. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

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## 500

He was on terror watch list but was allowed to buy and possess guns? I dont get it.

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## iPhone

Desert Fox said:


> Well, that's the trouble you will have, a potential fifth column. Modern Liberal societies are digging their own graves because they view all of humanity as being on par with them (universal egalitarianism).
> 
> (Hypothetical scenario) Its like Pakistan allowing into its borders millions of Hindu indians, giving them citizenship and the right to possess firearms under the belief of universal egalitarianism, and then going to war with india or hindu extremists and not expecting those hindus within its border to form a potential fifth column. No kidding that's a recipe for disaster.
> 
> What liberals don't understand is that respect and honor are something that is *earned*, not handed out like candy. You can't just start respecting and honoring people who never earned that privilege and just hopped off the refugee boat, that they are equal to you just because they bleed red. You have these people coming into your countries who never contributed to your societies but are now reaping the benefits of the citizens of that country while also harboring hate.


So what do you suggest we do to the refugees coming off the boat? Put them in sort of concentration camps? Cuz sure as shit it's not the refugees committing the mass shootings but the kids that are born and raised in this country and have earned the "respect" and "privilege" to buy guns and and using those guns to kill people.

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## WaLeEdK2

Falcon29 said:


> Let's not pretend Quran is the only Islamic source for rulings there is, that's simply not true, with all due respect. Mohammed taught the Sharia by means of oral tradition. Much of the Islamic faith guidelines, Sunnah, laws, do not come from Quran. They come from Hadith. And all schools of thought are in agreement about that, and also in agreement that the companions of the Prophet endorsed death penalty for the condition of homosexuality. And there are examples of that in the verified Hadith's. Of course you may not choose to believe in Hadith, but then you might as well not believe in much of the Sunnah, and other teachings that derive from Hadith. And some schools of thought will say it's entering disbelief if you reject Hadith.
> 
> Me myself, I'm not in favor of that, I'm an agnostic-atheist. So I have no agenda here. I'm bothered however, by the denial Christians, Muslims and Jews put themselves through, regarding key tenets of their religions. This incident will now be used by some Christian and Jewish circles, to emphasize how Islam is brutal, and how it's a religion of Satan, because of certain laws in Islam, such as apostasy or homosexuality judicial punishments. But, those same people don't know, Islam just brought that down from Judaism, actually much of Islam is literal taken down from Judaism. Jews know what is controversial in their religion, so they get rid of the most controversial things, such as the Talmud scriptures, to try projecting different meaning to their religion. Which just simply proves, by taking logical route, of disbanding much of scripture that supposedly came from their God, that they deny their God and treat their religion as if it's a man made religion. Otherwise they would keep the controversial scriptures since it's supposedly from a divine source. My argument makes absolutely sense, it's just semi-religious people don't like facing the reality here.
> 
> And to expand on my point, because they took logical route, now they have credibility to attack Islam, and Muslim's will be unfairly attacked over scripture that is actually originating from the original Abrahamic/Biblical scriptures that Jews and Christians profess to follow. So while I don't have positive views on Abrahamic faiths, my point here actually is beneficial for Muslims.
> 
> Now regarding the biblical scriptures on homosexuality:
> 
> 
> Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
> Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them."
> 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
> Romans 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
> 
> ......
> ......
> 
> PS, none of that is 'biblical', it's actually all Jewish scripture which Christians use. Hence this is product of both religions. Some will say it is old testament and no longer relevant, yeah no. Like I said, you took logical approach to clean up your religion. When there is no such permission by the supposed 'Divine Lord' that you allowed you to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm an agnostic-atheist and not taking anything out of context. I'm speaking about general established guidelines for society, among all three Abrahamic religions. They are all not favorable towards homosexuality, and they all actually implement death penalty for it. Even one of the most important stories in all the three religions, the story of Lot and his tribe, make it very clear where the Abrahamic God stands in regards to homosexuality.
> 
> Instead of being in denial, why can't the educated of you just admit you perceive these religions as man-made religions? Or are you guys claiming the 'Divine God' made some mistakes when condemning gays, and many other things? A perfect God can't make such mistakes. So what is going on here, is these followers of these religions made up their own God, and hence have no issue altering their own God's views, and suddenly claiming he no longer stands for such things, or that he has now become a moderate figure because we're entering modern times....



I'm not denying anything about gays if I was a ruler of a Muslim country I wouldn't allow their marriage. Full stop. Granted if you want to get married then you can go to another country and get married their. 

And how can you conclude that the these are "man-made" religions. You think that someone would go through so much suffering like getting nailed to a cross because of something he supposed of created himself or get pelted with sharp stones? There are no mistakes. Every thing was already written. Even the Angels questioned God as to why the need to create humans because they would shed blood. We over estimate our selves thinking we out so learned yet we don't know a half of a quarter.

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## Desert Fox

iPhone said:


> So what do you suggest we do to the refugees coming off the boat? Put them in sort of concentration camps? Cuz sure as shit it's not the refugees committing the mass shootings but the kids that are born and raised in this country and have earned the "respect" and "privilege" to buy guns and and using those guns to kill people.


If it's a Muslim refugee coming of the boat or a US born Muslim citizen does it make a difference when they kill in the name of religion and pledge allegiance to ISIS? All it proves is that we have a fifth column.

*BTW, don't misconstrue this as something i personally want (concentration camps and whatever else you stated). I don't control what goes on in this world or what so and so does in the name of religion. I'm merely stating my observations. But don't take my words for it, look back in history for similar examples of whats taking place today.*


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## Falcon29

WaLeEdK2 said:


> I'm not denying anything about gays if I was a ruler of a Muslim country I wouldn't allow their marriage. Full stop. Granted if you want to get married then you can go to another country and get married their.
> 
> And how can you conclude that the these are "man-made" religions. You think that someone would go through so much suffering like getting nailed to a cross because of something he supposed of created himself or get pelted with sharp stones? There are no mistakes. Every thing was already written. Even the Angels questioned God as to why the need to create humans because they would shed blood. We over estimate our selves yet we don't know a half of a quarter.



I'm not going to get into why I believe the religions are man-made, that's off topic for now. My point was that, this incident will be used to highlight barbarity of Islam, even though all Abrahamic scriptures/religions endorse death penalty for gays/lesbians. I just don't appreciate disingenuous approach by adherents of Abrahamic faiths, who they themselves, treat their religions as if they're man-made. My argument is very clear and highlights hypocrisy of many people, who will use religion as no more than identity to hate on others. 

Without these religions, the world is better off.

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## Desert Fox

Falcon29 said:


> I'm not going to get into why I believe the religions are man-made, that's off topic for now. My point was that, this incident will be used to highlight barbarity of Islam, even though all Abrahamic scriptures/religions endorse death penalty for gays/lesbians. I just don't appreciate disingenuous approach by adherents of Abrahamic faiths, who they themselves, treat their religions as if they're man-made. My argument is very clear and highlights hypocrisy of many people, who will use religion as no more than identity to hate on others.
> 
> Without these religions, the world is better off.


I agree and disagree with the points you have made.

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## WaLeEdK2

Falcon29 said:


> I'm not going to get into why I believe the religions are man-made, that's off topic for now. My point was that, this incident will be used to highlight barbarity of Islam, even though all Abrahamic scriptures/religions endorse death penalty for gays/lesbians. I just don't appreciate disingenuous approach by adherents of Abrahamic faiths, who they themselves, treat their religions as if they're man-made. My argument is very clear and highlights hypocrisy of many people, who will use religion as no more than identity to hate on others.
> 
> Without these religions, the world is better off.



Lol you think the world will be any different? I've heard that excuse too many times. There have been MANY wars that weren't the result of religion. Yet people see what happened in the past few years and conclude religion is the cause for all human suffering. Arrogance.

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## RabzonKhan

I am appalled at the senseless act of terrorism against the LGBT.

My deepest sympathy to the family and friends of the victims.


It’s a good day for the freaking racist demagogue and his supporters, and he is taking full advantage of the tragedy.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742019961946791939

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742034549232766976

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742053354189299712


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## Clutch

Falcon29 said:


> Well that won't happen, one, because Christians/Jews don't consider Islam to be an actual Abrahamic faith, they believe Mohammed was a false prophet. And this incident will be politicized, especially in political arena, but also among religious popular circles. What's weird is that Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture all instruct their followers to execute gays. Of course many of them are in denial about that, and will say that's fundamentalist approach. No, that is the Abrahamic approach.
> 
> Ideally Abrahamic religion should be banned all together as it's not compatible with modern world, or at the very least, Abrahamic faith adherents need to be reeducated on the principles of their religions, and then make choice to keep it or leave it.
> 
> The Christian/Jewish vs. Muslim drama will never end as long as these religions cause enormous general divide among society, and the people will continue blabbering about one religion being inspired by Satan, and how God is going to defeat so and so, etc....All this hatred is very simple as a result of these ancient ME religions.



Actually the Jewish religion doesn't consider Christianity to be an abrahamic religion either. They consider Jesus PBUH as a "heretic and a lunatic".

It doesn't mean Christianity isn't abrahamic just because the Jewish don't consider it so. 

The preceding religion will always consider the preceding as a heretic because it naturally negates theirs. Fyi

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## Winchester

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-even-tried-to-run-for-the-afghan-presidency/ 

Looks like the father is a Pakistan hating scumbag


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## Desert Fox

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Lol you think the world will be any different? I've heard that excuse too many times. There have been MANY wars that weren't the result of religion. Yet people see what happened in the past few years and conclude religion is the cause for all human suffering. Arrogance.


In the end it's not the guns, its not the religions, its the humans who cause the immense suffering of other humans. Perhaps the best thing that could happen to this planet is if a asteroid hits and wipes out all humanity and the roaches take over .


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## C130

RabzonKhan said:


> I am appalled at the senseless act of terrorism against the LGBT.
> 
> My deepest sympathy to the family and friends of the victims.
> 
> 
> It’s a good day for the freaking racist demagogue and his supporters, and he is taking full advantage of the tragedy.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742019961946791939
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742034549232766976
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742053354189299712




but he's right though  and how is he a racist?? is Islam a race? 

and the left is using this tragedy for #GunControl

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## WaLeEdK2

Desert Fox said:


> In the end it's not the guns, its not the religions, its the humans who cause the immense suffering of other humans. Perhaps the best thing that could happen to this planet is if a asteroid hits and wipes out all humanity and the roaches take over .



Or we can blow each other up with nukes

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## Red-Bull

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742066996767031296


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## Falcon29

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Lol you think the world will be any different? I've heard that excuse too many times. There have been MANY wars that weren't the result of religion. Yet people see what happened in the past few years and conclude religion is the cause for all human suffering. Arrogance.



Absolutely will be different, will rip people of any excuses they use to hate one another or invade nations on the basis of religion/combating another religion. Nobody said wars will decline as a result, secular nationalism is still better alternative though. Many social schisms will decline as a result, too. I'm sure you see the social consequences yourself in Canada.



Clutch said:


> Actually the Jewish religion doesn't consider Christianity to be an abrahamic religion either. They consider Jesus PBUH as a "heretic and a lunatic".
> 
> It doesn't mean Christianity isn't abrahamic just because the Jewish don't consider it so.
> 
> The preceding religion will always consider the preceding as a heretic because it naturally negates theirs. Fyi



It used to be that way, not anymore. Western Christians/Jews generally see more common ground in their faiths, and assert 'judeo-christian' nature of their religions. Islam is singled out. You investigate yourself, you'll see these religions are nothing more than tools to spread influence, hate, get support for country overseas, make money off it, etc....

There are two outcomes/behaviors/benefits to Abrahamic religions:

1. General = Business, spread hate, make claims over land, make excuse for war under religious context, like Jihad or Western wars overseas, somewhat try bonding society together or keep them distracted from important things....

2. Personal = Give one meaning to life to cope with life, have a social status in your local religious center, talk about religion because it gets you FB likes and is trendy thing to do, get attention, in very rare cases work on self betterment, etc....

As you see, nothing good comes out of it.

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## Basel

Vary sad incident, R.I.P to departed souls.


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## WaLeEdK2

Who says you need religion to hate? The only reason it is more prominent is because of external funding from outside elements to mercenaries that randomly yell Allah hu Akbar. After a while the people will just kill each other for revenge. It's called divide and rule. Same thing that's trying to succeed in Pakistan.

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## American Pakistani

All those $tupid so called muslims who hate American values should not immigrate here. These murthor furthers bring a bad name to real muslims who follow the true peaceful islam.

The second biggest and unforgivable sin is murder and killing. Killing one human is equal to killing entire humanity in Islam so I'm confused where these bigots get their nonsense version from.

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## Desert Fox

Anubis said:


> If the second amendment can be exploited by terrorists...shouldn't it be looked at?


A more sensible approach would be to ban those who are prone to extremist ideologies from entering the country. Why should Americans change their centuries old constitution because some recent son of an immigrant wants to kill in the name of his religion? Does that make any sense?

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## SQ8

Falcon29 said:


> Let's not pretend Quran is the only Islamic source for rulings there is, that's simply not true, with all due respect. Mohammed taught the Sharia by means of oral tradition. Much of the Islamic faith guidelines, Sunnah, laws, do not come from Quran. They come from Hadith. And all schools of thought are in agreement about that, and also in agreement that the companions of the Prophet endorsed death penalty for the condition of homosexuality. And there are examples of that in the verified Hadith's. Of course you may not choose to believe in Hadith, but then you might as well not believe in much of the Sunnah, and other teachings that derive from Hadith. And some schools of thought will say it's entering disbelief if you reject Hadith.
> 
> Me myself, I'm not in favor of that, I'm an agnostic-atheist. So I have no agenda here. I'm bothered however, by the denial Christians, Muslims and Jews put themselves through, regarding key tenets of their religions. This incident will now be used by some Christian and Jewish circles, to emphasize how Islam is brutal, and how it's a religion of Satan, because of certain laws in Islam, such as apostasy or homosexuality judicial punishments. But, those same people don't know, Islam just brought that down from Judaism, actually much of Islam is literal taken down from Judaism. Jews know what is controversial in their religion, so they get rid of the most controversial things, such as the Talmud scriptures, to try projecting different meaning to their religion. Which just simply proves, by taking logical route, of disbanding much of scripture that supposedly came from their God, that they deny their God and treat their religion as if it's a man made religion. Otherwise they would keep the controversial scriptures since it's supposedly from a divine source. My argument makes absolutely sense, it's just semi-religious people don't like facing the reality here.
> 
> And to expand on my point, because they took logical route, now they have credibility to attack Islam, and Muslim's will be unfairly attacked over scripture that is actually originating from the original Abrahamic/Biblical scriptures that Jews and Christians profess to follow. So while I don't have positive views on Abrahamic faiths, my point here actually is beneficial for Muslims.
> 
> Now regarding the biblical scriptures on homosexuality:
> 
> 
> Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
> Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them."
> 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
> Romans 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
> 
> ......
> ......
> 
> PS, none of that is 'biblical', it's actually all Jewish scripture which Christians use. Hence this is product of both religions. Some will say it is old testament and no longer relevant, yeah no. Like I said, you took logical approach to clean up your religion. When there is no such permission by the supposed 'Divine Lord' that you allowed you to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm an agnostic-atheist and not taking anything out of context. I'm speaking about general established guidelines for society, among all three Abrahamic religions. They are all not favorable towards homosexuality, and they all actually implement death penalty for it. Even one of the most important stories in all the three religions, the story of Lot and his tribe, make it very clear where the Abrahamic God stands in regards to homosexuality.
> 
> Instead of being in denial, why can't the educated of you just admit you perceive these religions as man-made religions? Or are you guys claiming the 'Divine God' made some mistakes when condemning gays, and many other things? A perfect God can't make such mistakes. So what is going on here, is these followers of these religions made up their own God, and hence have no issue altering their own God's views, and suddenly claiming he no longer stands for such things, or that he has now become a moderate figure because we're entering modern times....


Again, your entire post has YET to provide proof for your claim. Your eloquent rant aside, WHERE IS THE QUOTED REFERENCE OR THE LIKE. I am not here to defend the bible since that is the job of the Christian, I asked you for a reference which you so far have avoided and instead are on a needless tirade to fill up a post with meaningless words.

Find the reference for your claim, or Ill keep your tirade off this thread.


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## Samandri

Maler said:


> A Pashtoon???


Probably a Tajik, judging from his name and facial features (Kabulis have such looks)


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## Desert Fox

American Pakistani said:


> All those $tupid so called muslims who hate American values should not immigrate here. These murthor furthers bring a bad name to real muslims who follow the true peaceful islam.
> 
> The second biggest and unforgivable sin is murder and killing. Killing one human is equal to killing entire humanity in Islam so I'm confused where these bigots get their nonsense version from.


Not only that, but America is also not a Islamic country. Muslims didn't found America, therefore what legitimacy do these people think they have that they can implement their interpretation of religious laws in a non-Muslim country?? Isn't that in itself against Islam? No one is forcing these people to go to a gay bar. Just live and let live or move back to wherever you came from if you can't help the urge to impose your religious laws on others.

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## Thorough Pro

WaLeEdK2 said:


> What are they going to label him as? He wasn't involved with any terrorist groups so is he mentally ill?



END



RAMPAGE said:


> WTF is this world coming to?


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## Falcon29

@Clutch

By the way bro, even though I'm not Muslim I still respect you as a person and treat just like everyone else. I hope you and others look into my arguments, you really need to have critical thinking to approach this. Now what religion will also do, is make some Muslims think God will do his part and solve social issues, he won't. What's happening now is worrying the general mainstream in the US, but also around the world. Media is worried, because they think Trump is white nationalist who will do harm to Muslims, Jews and other minorities. Hence this incident is actually worrying them, they don't want huge backlash, because it will benefit him, but also they believe it will lead to a smooth ride into 'fascism' and disorder that could cause trembles across the world. And you don't want to rely on a God in that case. It will not go well.



WaLeEdK2 said:


> Who says you need religion to hate? The only reason it is more prominent is because of external funding from outside elements to mercenaries that randomly yell Allah hu Akbar. After a while the people will just kill each other for revenge. It's called divide and rule. Same thing that's trying to succeed in Pakistan.



I'm not talking about Muslims only, I'm speaking of all three groups. And not about 'mercenaries' or anything. You don't need to kill anyone to hate anyone. Christians, Jews and Muslims don't need to kill each other, but they still hold ill feelings towards each other, besides the younger very secular ones that are enjoying life.



Oscar said:


> Again, your entire post has YET to provide proof for your claim. Your eloquent rant aside, WHERE IS THE QUOTED REFERENCE OR THE LIKE. I am not here to defend the bible since that is the job of the Christian, I asked you for a reference which you so far have avoided and instead are on a needless tirade to fill up a post with meaningless words.
> 
> Find the reference for your claim, or Ill keep your tirade off this thread.



Is this a joke? First thing you need to do, read the Story of Lot in the Quran, if that doesn't make it clear, then we will move on to Hadith. Here is the story first(I'm not singling out Muslims, all Abrahamic religions endorse this but they are in denial):

_“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?_

_81. ‘Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins).’_

_82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: ‘Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!’_

_83. Then We saved him and his family, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind (in the torment)._

_84. And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). Then see what was the end of the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists and sinners)”

....
_
*If God himself mass executed this gay tribe, I'm not sure what more evidence do Christians, Jews and Muslims need. Or was that an isolated incident or metaphorical? To say the Abrahamic God isn't pro-gay, is an understatement, to say the least. *
_...._

_[al-A’raaf 7:80-84]
_
al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in _Saheeh_ _al-Tirmidhi_.

Ahmad (2915) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “May Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot, may Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot,” three times. This was classed as hasan by Shu’ayb al-Arna’oot in _Tahqeeq al-Musnad_.

The Sahaabah were unanimously agreed on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed as to how they were to be executed. Some of them were of the view that they should be burned with fire, which was the view of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and also of Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), as we shall see below. And some of them thought that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him).

Some of them thought that they should be stoned to death, which was narrated from both ‘Ali and Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them).

After the Sahaabah, the fuqaha’ differed concerning the matter. Some of them said that the homosexual should be executed no matter what his situation, whether he is married or not.

.............

https://islamqa.info/en/38622

....
....

*I don't see why I need to keep referencing evidence to someone who claims to be a practicing Muslim, and should know what his Islamic Law consist of. Either you know too little, or you do the 'logical route' I explained in my earlier posts that Christians and Jews also resort to. *

*This shouldn't even be an argument, by the way, Islam originated in Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabians are home to the schools of thought, which have already established everything about the religion. You don't know better than them, you can try making it something you want to, but that's not what Abrahamic religion is meant for. It's a full package given to humans by means of a messenger that is not to be altered and contains all guidelines for society. *


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## American Pakistani

Desert Fox said:


> Not only that, but America is also not a Islamic country. Muslims didn't found America, therefore what legitimacy do these people think they have that they can implement their interpretation of religious laws in a non-Muslim country?? Isn't that in itself against Islam? No one is forcing these people to go to a gay bar. Just live and let live or move back to wherever you came from if you can't help the urge to impose your religious laws on others.



Agreed.

If one does not appreciate American value and have problems with American culture, they should not immigrate. Or if their parents had immigrated but they have a problem then they should pack and leave.

These m0r0ns are shame for majority peaceful muslims.

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## Anubis

Desert Fox said:


> A more sensible approach would be to ban those who are prone to extremist ideologies from entering the country. Why should Americans change their centuries old constitution because some recent son of an immigrant wants to kill in the name of his religion? Does that make any sense?


It does.....but then again holding a religious test before you let someone enter is not constitutional either....and most of these domestic terrorists are radicalized here...this guy was born here...how do you stop that?

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## WaLeEdK2

Falcon29 said:


> @Clutch
> 
> By the way bro, even though I'm not Muslim I still respect you as a person and treat just like everyone else. I hope you and others look into my arguments, you really need to have critical thinking to approach this. Now what religion will also do, is make some Muslims think God will do his part and solve social issues, he won't. What's happening now is worrying the general mainstream in the US, but also around the world. Media is worried, because they think Trump is white nationalist who will do harm to Muslims, Jews and other minorities. Hence this incident is actually worrying them, they don't want huge backlash, because it will benefit him, but also they believe it will lead to a smooth ride into 'fascism' and disorder that could cause trembles across the world. And you don't want to rely on a God in that case. It will not go well.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about Muslims only, I'm speaking of all three groups. And not about 'mercenaries' or anything. You don't need to kill anyone to hate anyone. Christians, Jews and Muslims don't need to kill each other, but they still hold ill feelings towards each other, besides the younger very secular ones that are enjoying life.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this a joke? First thing you need to do, read the Story of Lot in the Quran, if that doesn't make it clear, then we will move on to Hadith. Here is the story first(I'm not singling out Muslims, all Abrahamic religions endorse this but they are in denial):
> 
> _“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?_
> 
> _81. ‘Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins).’_
> 
> _82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: ‘Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!’_
> 
> _83. Then We saved him and his family, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind (in the torment)._
> 
> _84. And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). Then see what was the end of the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists and sinners)”_
> 
> _[al-A’raaf 7:80-84]
> _
> al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in _Saheeh_ _al-Tirmidhi_.
> 
> Ahmad (2915) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “May Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot, may Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot,” three times. This was classed as hasan by Shu’ayb al-Arna’oot in _Tahqeeq al-Musnad_.
> 
> The Sahaabah were unanimously agreed on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed as to how they were to be executed. Some of them were of the view that they should be burned with fire, which was the view of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and also of Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), as we shall see below. And some of them thought that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him).
> 
> Some of them thought that they should be stoned to death, which was narrated from both ‘Ali and Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them).
> 
> After the Sahaabah, the fuqaha’ differed concerning the matter. Some of them said that the homosexual should be executed no matter what his situation, whether he is married or not.
> 
> .............
> 
> https://islamqa.info/en/38622
> 
> ....
> ....



Yes the secular ones are only enjoying their life. I know back home MANY religious people in Pakistan that are enjoying their lives and living side by side with Christians. Muslims need to be properly educated on Islam (sad to say the state we are in). There have been burning of churches and what not yet the Quran says to protect them. And people would still blame Islam.

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## A.M.

Here is what we know so far:

- 29 year old security guard who was trained with assault weapons.

- Married and divorced once. Was married to azbekhnistani women currently I believe. Divorced because of domestic abuse.

- arrived at nightclub at 2am. Called 911 beforehand to pledge allegiance to ISIS.

- negotiated with police in the middle. SWAT team entered the club around 5 and killed him.

- attacker was on FBI watch list twice in the past but they didn't have enough information to take action.

- he attacked using AR rifle and handgun.

Not good news for liberal Muslims living in the US. One can cite all the verses from the Quran but the fact is this, you made a choice to live in the US. If you have a problem with the open minded nature of the US culture and prefer to live under a more restrictive society, all you have to do is pack your bags and GTFO.

I'm sick and tired of these lunatics defining what the future for the rest of us will look like.

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## Desert Fox

Anubis said:


> It does.....but then again holding a religious test before you let someone enter is not constitutional either....and most of these domestic terrorists are radicalized here...this guy was born here...how do you stop that?


You have a point. That is the issue and no one has the answer. The Muslims of the West have now become a fifth column. Perhaps they will monitor us more and even strip us of certain rights. Worst case scenario will be large camps if things really get out of hand. Anything is possible with the way things are going. It's not the first time potential fifth column groups were targeted and put in camps in American history (see civil war and WW2).

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## WaLeEdK2

A.M. said:


> Here is what we know so far:
> 
> - 29 year old security guard who was trained with assault weapons.
> 
> - Married and divorced once. Was married to azbekhnistani women currently I believe. Divorced because of domestic abuse.
> 
> - arrived at nightclub at 2am. Called 911 beforehand to pledge allegiance to ISIS.
> 
> - negotiated with police in the middle. SWAT team entered the club around 5 and killed him.
> 
> - attacker was on FBI watch list twice in the past but they didn't have enough information to take action.
> 
> - he attacked using AR rifle and handgun.
> 
> Not good news for liberal Muslims living in the US. One can cite all the verses from the Quran but the fact is this, you made a choice to live in the US. If you have a problem with the open minded nature of the US culture and prefer to live under a more restrictive society, all you have to do is pack your bags and GTFO.
> 
> I'm sick and tired of these lunatics defining what the future for the rest of us will look like.



I wonder where he got the AR from if he was on the FBI watch list.


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## A.M.

WaLeEdK2 said:


> I wonder where he got the AR from if he was on the FBI watch list.


He had an advanced firearm license due to his profession. FBI doesn't so anything unless they have credible threat which, they apparently, didn't have.


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## Falcon29

WaLeEdK2 said:


> Yes the secular ones are only enjoying their life. I know back home MANY religious people in Pakistan that are enjoying their lives and living side by side with Christians. Muslims need to be properly educated on Islam (sad to say the state we are in). There have been burning of churches and what not yet the Quran says to protect them. And people would still blame Islam.



Muslims don't need Islam. I don't know why you're so adamant in insisting that. Christians and Jews don't need Christianity, but they still identify with those religions, due to material, societal and personal benefits those religions bring. If you want an example, look at the Jewish people. They know their religion is man-made, but they need to make claims to Israel. They also need it to influence the followers of Christianity. They also need it to make for a distinct heritage. Those are just some examples. I don't agree with this approach, and I would prefer there is no religion at all. Since I'm well informed, able to critically think and realize that people know religion is man made but use it to their benefit, overwhelmingly in negative ways. 

I don't agree about singling out Muslims and attacking them, I made that clear in my long post in this thread. It seems people are simply not able to do basic comprehension, or they ignore the legitimate points I made. In short, I said Muslims are singled out in attacks on religion, because the other two religions have been dumbed down into something they never were, which gives them credibility to attack Islam.

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## Desert Fox

RabzonKhan said:


> I am appalled at the senseless act of terrorism against the LGBT.
> 
> My deepest sympathy to the family and friends of the victims.
> 
> 
> It’s a good day for the freaking racist demagogue and his supporters, and he is taking full advantage of the tragedy.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742019961946791939
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742034549232766976
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742053354189299712


People like you aren't helping. For once take that leftist lens of your eyes and see things for what they are. Why is it that you label any sane voice as "racist" for speaking facts? It's people like you who are allowing this defaming of Muslims to take place. If you refuse to support those who recognize and speak out against this threat then you are contributing to the bad image of Muslims.

The sooner Donald Trump becomes POTUS the better for all Americans, including American Muslims.


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## Nilgiri

RIP.


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## WaLeEdK2

Falcon29 said:


> Muslims don't need Islam. I don't know why you're so adamant in insisting that. Christians and Jews don't need Christianity, but they still identify with those religions, due to material, societal and personal benefits those religions bring. If you want an example, look at the Jewish people. They know their religion is man-made, but they need to make claims to Israel. They also need it to influence the followers of Christianity. They also need it to make for a distinct heritage. Those are just some examples. I don't agree with this approach, and I would prefer there is no religion at all. Since I'm well informed, able to critically think and realize that people know religion is man made but use it to their benefit, overwhelmingly in negative ways.
> 
> I don't agree about singling out Muslims and attacking them, I made that clear in my long post in this thread. It seems people are simply not able to do basic comprehension, or they ignore the legitimate points I made. In short, I said Muslims are singled out in attacks on religion, because the other two religions have been dumbed down into something they never were, which gives them credibility to attack Islam.



Muslims that don't care don't need Islam. They just call themselves Muslims to feel they belong to something, which is a problem in the contemporary world. However, for the ones that do care they need it. For example, Pakistan needs it. Islam hasn't arrived yet. Where are the punishments for corruption, for riba. Where's proper Islamic teachings about living harmoniously with Jews and Christians? Many great patriots such as Hamid Gul and Dr. Israr Ahmed have have stressed this fact. Zia claimed to bring Islam but just put on a mask to fool the nation.


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## SQ8

Falcon29 said:


> Is this a joke? First thing you need to do, read the Story of Lot in the Quran, if that doesn't make it clear, then we will move on to Hadith. Here is the story first(I'm not singling out Muslims, all Abrahamic religions endorse this but they are in denial):
> 
> _“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?_
> 
> _81. ‘Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins).’_
> 
> _82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: ‘Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!’_
> 
> _83. Then We saved him and his family, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind (in the torment)._
> 
> _84. And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). Then see what was the end of the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists and sinners)”
> 
> ....
> _
> *If God himself mass executed this gay tribe, I'm not sure what more evidence do Christians, Jews and Muslims need. Or was that an isolated incident or metaphorical? To say the Abrahamic God isn't pro-gay, is an understatement, to say the least. *
> _...._
> 
> _[al-A’raaf 7:80-84]
> _
> al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in _Saheeh_ _al-Tirmidhi_.
> 
> Ahmad (2915) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “May Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot, may Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot,” three times. This was classed as hasan by Shu’ayb al-Arna’oot in _Tahqeeq al-Musnad_.
> 
> The Sahaabah were unanimously agreed on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed as to how they were to be executed. Some of them were of the view that they should be burned with fire, which was the view of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and also of Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), as we shall see below. And some of them thought that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him).
> 
> Some of them thought that they should be stoned to death, which was narrated from both ‘Ali and Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them).
> 
> After the Sahaabah, the fuqaha’ differed concerning the matter. Some of them said that the homosexual should be executed no matter what his situation, whether he is married or not.
> 
> .............
> 
> https://islamqa.info/en/38622
> 
> ....
> ....


Again, your venting on is "this a joke" is your own frustration in trying to get people to convert to your view based on just your word for it.


Thank you for actually putting something from a site which you copy pasted. First, a non copy paster from a site would have referenced the sections of the Quran where it comes from.. I dont know Islam qa and dont care for it. Anyone who needs to go to Islamqa.com for answers clearly has little interest in investigating the religion and more into finding more rhetoric to dump.

Lets start with Surah Ar-raaf, which briefly talks of the lustful desires of the people of Sodom. The condemnation is for lust and seeking it. It is also Lust which drives such acts in many gay communities.. and also in certain truck stops and madressas as well. 

Yet, the penance for this is being given by god and Lut is being asked to leave the place where this is happening. I dont see any proof in whatever you copy pasted based on the Quran that Muslims are supposed to kill gays.

Lets go with the Hadiath then, first.. all of them are based on weak or poorly referenced hadiath and in my view the statement in red HAS no backing except whoever wrote islamqa and I have no trust on them. That leaves the green bit referring to a hadiath which has not been reported in Sahih Bukhari which is taken as the most authoritative source for Hadiath. Then the source of the supporting of the Hadiath is also plainly glazed over as Sahih by a scholar with whom islamqa gives little reference to.. 

So while you may have luck with convincing non-muslims or those muslims that dont research their religion, but I am not buying any of your supposed rhetoric regarding any religious commandment given ..ESPECIALLY by the Quran and via the Prophet to kill Homosexuals.

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## Cherokee

@Oscar did you delete my post ?


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## livingdead

I thought its a rightwing christian nutjob when I heard the news.


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## C130

hinduguy said:


> I thought its a rightwing christian nutjob when I heard the news.


why would you think that??


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States

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## Irfan Baloch

all haters and trolls be warned.
you will face immediate infractions and ban for posting hatred and flame. 
despite the tragedy, a certain group of trolls was celebrating and wishing that the killer was Pakistani. he has turned out to be an American born of Afghan Descent. so there is some egg on the face on some haters that look for anti Pakistan opportunities.

posting the homophobic commentary by Muslim clerics on this thread will only get you banned. and I urge other people not to respond with what Neo Nazis and Evangelic Christians say about homosexuals either because its a tragedy of human nature and the sexual orientation of the victims is of no concern for anyone who has a figment of decency 

it is understandable that posting Anti Islamic rhetoric is very compelling and satisfying for some but doing so just shows that hatred is more important for such people than showing some restraint due to the nature and level of the tragedy

finally I urge all Muslim posters to refrain from getting fooled and played at the hands of the seasoned trolls and flammers.. just ignore their posts and report them. you got nothing to explain or justify or apologise. the killer swore his allegiance to the death cult which is the creation of the same western governments and their Arab partners in the middle east who wanted to draw new political landscape and there is some blow back being suffered by the innocent citizens of the west who had no say or control in that dirty politics.

Daesh and all its affiliates cant survive more than few weeks if not days, if the world powers are sincere in tackling this menace. this sham death cult cant hold a building let alone large parts of two countries if its makers had realised what monster they have created for their political ends. 

lives of the west always seem to matter more than the lives of the people of the middle east. this same death cult has butchered people in thousands in a day and that hardly mattered or gained any attention. 
hopefully this tragedy might change the minds of American leadership to stop its deadly game in the Muslim world.

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## pak-marine

very sick crime .. RIP those who lost their lives !


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## livingdead

C130 said:


> why would you think that??
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States


dont know... I just think gays are hated in US by religious conservatives and some of the hatred will boil over from time to time... some of the examples in wiki are probably cases in which victim just happens to be gay but many other cases, homophobia was cause for violence.


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## Indus Pakistan

Hassan_Ishtiaq said:


> Whites and their wannabe Secular terrorist supporters


Can you not bring the colour of skin into this please. By doing so your no differant from the extreme right.



Desert Fox said:


> *Stop excusing murderers and rapists.*


Read below. Does that look like "excusing". I think I was most robust here in making my feelings known about this despicable killer.


Kaptaan said:


> And for the record I agree with what @SvenSvensonov said. This was a wicked and evil act by a monster. Nobody and I mean nobody has right to murder others because of their lifestyle. Let it be said I stand behind all the gays in the world. I am red blooded male who loves women. I don't agree with gay lifestyle but hell I will stand by them even when I profoundly disagree with them.


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## Falcon29

Oscar said:


> Again, your venting on is "this a joke" is your own frustration in trying to get people to convert to your view based on just your word for it.



How about we just agree to disagree, I made my points, you disputed them, but at same time won't allow to respond as you're threatening to remove my posts if I do respond. And now that you allowed to me put forth some sources, from a mainstream site(which I chose thinking that will be all you accept), you now dismiss the site and the sources. And express dismay with 'copy paste' the evidence, as if there is any other way to reference the Hadith or Quran verses.



> Lets start with Surah Ar-raaf, which briefly talks of the lustful desires of the people of Sodom. The condemnation is for lust and seeking it. It is also Lust which drives such acts in many gay communities.. and also in certain truck stops and madressas as well.



God destroyed the tribe of Lot and his community for the 'lustful desires' or the gay ones. I'm not sure what's confusing about the story.



> Yet, the penance for this is being given by god and Lut is being asked to leave the place where this is happening. I dont see any proof in whatever you copy pasted based on the Quran that Muslims are supposed to kill gays.



No that is not what happened, Lot was commanded by God to give his people an ultimatum. He warned them and what not, then they threatened to drive him out, but didn't, and rather mocked him. So God destroyed them:

“Bring God’s torment upon us if you are one of the truthful.” (Quran 29:29)
“And when Our messengers [i.e., angels] came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, “Indeed, we will destroy the people of that [i.e., Lot’s] city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers.” (Quran 29:31)




> Lets go with the Hadiath then, first.. all of them are based on weak or poorly referenced hadiath and in my view the statement in red HAS no backing except whoever wrote islamqa and I have no trust on them. That leaves the green bit referring to a hadiath which has not been reported in Sahih Bukhari which is taken as the most authoritative source for Hadiath. Then the source of the supporting of the Hadiath is also plainly glazed over as Sahih by a scholar with whom islamqa gives little reference to..



Tirmidi is not weak or poorly based Hadith, it is actually one of six 'Saheeh' books Sunni's use. Sunan Abu Dawood is also one of those six, authentic hadith, and here is that ruling:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4447

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4448
....

Take hadith out, Islam no longer becomes a way of life and just becomes a collection of stories to ponder upon. So your approach makes no sense if you genuinely believe there is more to your supposedly divine religion than just some stories. If you believe religion is man made and should have no influence on state, lifestyle, personal choices, etc....then I don't get the point of pretending to be a Muslim. 



> So while you may have luck with convincing non-muslims or those muslims that dont research their religion, but I am not buying any of your supposed rhetoric regarding any religious commandment given ..ESPECIALLY by the Quran and via the Prophet to kill Homosexuals.



You would not know anything about the lifestyle of the Prophet had it not been for Hadith. So I'm dismissing your Quran only approach. Hadith is very essential to Islam, without it, 50% if not more of the religion would be missing.

And I'm not trying to convince non-Muslims of anything. My initial argument was actually intended to defend Muslims from attacks on their religion by people adhering to other Abrahamic faiths, that attacks Islam for 'backwards' lifestyle, 'barbaric laws', etc....When their own religions actually command putting to death gays for one example.

Now I'm just proving the hypocrisy of Muslims, Jews and Christians, all that use the same scripture, that are in denial about their religions. And they do a lot of cutting/pasting, to form new books, to give them moral high ground against other people(in this case Islam), to claim Islam is a Satanic religion and the rest are the true religions brought down by God. Like I said, 90% of you don't even know your religions, the ones that do don't bother following them. It's hypocrisy at it's best. Nobody like that impresses me, they can reap token points all they want, I'm straightforward and honest, which is why I don't use religion for personal benefit, and thereby declared myself agnostic-atheist.


----------



## Nilgiri

Falcon29 said:


> How about we just agree to disagree, I made my points, you disputed them, but at same time won't allow to respond as you're threatening to remove my posts if I do respond. And now that you allowed to me put forth some sources, from a mainstream site(which I chose thinking that will be all you accept), you now dismiss the site and the sources. And express dismay with 'copy paste' the evidence, as if there is any other way to reference the Hadith or Quran verses.
> 
> 
> 
> God destroyed the tribe of Lot and his community for the 'lustful desires' or the gay ones. I'm not sure what's confusing about the story.
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not what happened, Lot was commanded by God to give his people an ultimatum. He warned them and what not, then they threatened to drive him out, but didn't, and rather mocked him. So God destroyed them:
> 
> “Bring God’s torment upon us if you are one of the truthful.” (Quran 29:29)
> “And when Our messengers [i.e., angels] came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, “Indeed, we will destroy the people of that [i.e., Lot’s] city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers.” (Quran 29:31)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tirmidi is not weak or poorly based Hadith, it is actually one of six 'Saheeh' books Sunni's use. Sunan Abu Dawood is also one of those six, authentic hadith, and here is that ruling:
> 
> Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
> Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4447
> 
> Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.
> Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4448
> 
> 
> 
> You would not know anything about the lifestyle of the Prophet had it not been for Hadith. So I'm dismissing your Quran only approach. Hadith is very essential to Islam, without it, 50% if not more of the religion would be missing.
> 
> And I'm not trying to convince non-Muslims of anything. My initial argument was actually intended to defend Muslims from attacks on their religion by people adhering to other Abrahamic faiths, that attacks Islam for 'backwards' lifestyle, 'barbaric laws', etc....When their own religions actually command putting to death gays for one example.
> 
> Now I'm just proving the hypocrisy of Muslims, Jews and Christians, all that use the same scripture, that are in denial about their religions. And they do a lot of cutting/pasting, to form new books, to give them moral high ground against other people(in this case Islam), to claim Islam is a Satanic religion and the rest are the true religions brought down by God. Like I said, 90% of you don't even know your religions, the ones that do don't bother following them. It's hypocrisy at it's best. Nobody like that impresses me, they can reap token points all they want, I'm straightforward and honest, which is why I don't use religion for personal benefit, and thereby declared myself agnostic-atheist.



What exactly are you saying? These folks had it coming or something?


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## Natan

Clutch said:


> Actually the Jewish religion doesn't consider Christianity to be an abrahamic religion either. They consider Jesus PBUH as a "heretic and a lunatic".
> 
> It doesn't mean Christianity isn't abrahamic just because the Jewish don't consider it so.


Actually, the Jewish religion doesn't consider ANY religion to be an abrahamic religion.

The Jewish religion simply doesn't recoginize the term 'abrahamic religion'.


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## SarthakGanguly

T-72M1 said:


> full name: Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, most likely of Pakistani origin.


Guy is from Afghanistan. Father sought refuge in the safety of USA. Son got too inspired by ISIS.


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## Falcon29

Nilgiri said:


> What exactly are you saying? These folks had it coming or something?



No, I'm an atheist. As a result of this incident, religious circles(Christian/Jewish) will attack Islam for it's tenets/traditions(not related to this incident), ie the common criticisms of Islam we've seen over and over again. Such as being sexist, anti-gay, or other things.

That criticism is valid to me, as long as it doesn't come from religious Christians/Jews. Because Biblical scripture is where homosexuality was deemed deviant and punishable with death in the first place. So this my religion is better than yours, has been debunked by me. And I'm merely pointing out, that such criticism/favoritism is invalid and severely flawed, also rejected.

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## Irfan Baloch

Falcon29 said:


> Well that won't happen, one, because Christians/Jews don't consider Islam to be an actual Abrahamic faith, they believe Mohammed was a false prophet. And this incident will be politicized, especially in political arena, but also among religious popular circles. What's weird is that Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture all instruct their followers to execute gays. Of course many of them are in denial about that, and will say that's fundamentalist approach. No, that is the Abrahamic approach.


not just the Abrahamic faith but the so called Atheist Neo Nazis also speically hate the gays and their usual genocidal rant is kill all Jews and Gays,

killing someone for his faith or sexual orientation is forbidden for Muslims.. this is something which will be decided on judgement day.. but extremists twist the Quranic text to support their acts and everyone else takes it as it is.
the faith has been here in the world for 1400 years and there was no such issue as is today ... its to do with the dirty politics of middle east and the oil money which is bankrolling it together with the western allies. mind you, its the same Muslims who fought together with the allied armies against the German Nazis .. they never found any reason to do what these terrorists of today are doing. banning the faith will work in favour of the terrorists

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## Nilgiri

Falcon29 said:


> No, retard, I'm an atheist. As a result of this incident, religious circles(Christian/Jewish) will attack Islam for it's tenets/traditions(not related to this incident), ie the common criticisms of Islam we've seen over and over again. Such as being sexist, anti-gay, or other things.
> 
> That criticism is valid to me, as long as it doesn't come from religious Christians/Jews. Because Biblical scripture is where homosexuality was deemed deviant and punishable with death in the first place. So this my religion is better than yours, has been debunked by me. And I'm merely pointing out, that such criticism/favoritism is invalid and severely flawed, also rejected.



Sorry, I didnt read your ending, just saw a lot of religious scripture being quoted so assumption got the better of me. My bad.

No need to call me a retard though.

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## Bratva

Irfan Baloch said:


> not just the Abrahamic faith but the so called Atheist Neo Nazis also speically hate the gays and their usual genocidal rant is kill all Jews and Gays,
> 
> *killing someone for his faith or sexual orientation is forbidden for Muslims.. this is something which will be decided on judgement day.. but extremists twist the Quranic text to support their acts and everyone else takes it as it is.
> the faith has been here in the world for 1400 years and there was no such issue as is today .*.. its to do with the dirty politics of middle east and the oil money which is bankrolling it together with the western allies. mind you, its the same Muslims who fought together with the allied armies against the German Nazis .. they never found any reason to do what these terrorists of today are doing. banning the faith will work in favour of the terrorists



Prophet PBUH recommended it. Homosexuals got killed in the era of Caliphs. Just saying that ISIS type guys do have justifications for their killing from within the Islam. There was no issue as of today because they,muslims, were ignorant of their own religion as rightly pointed by Falcon29.

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## Falcon29

Irfan Baloch said:


> not just the Abrahamic faith but the so called Atheist Neo Nazis also speically hate the gays and their usual genocidal rant is kill all Jews and Gays,
> 
> killing someone for his faith or sexual orientation is forbidden for Muslims.. this is something which will be decided on judgement day.. but extremists twist the Quranic text to support their acts and everyone else takes it as it is.
> the faith has been here in the world for 1400 years and there was no such issue as is today ... its to do with the dirty politics of middle east and the oil money which is bankrolling it together with the western allies. mind you, its the same Muslims who fought together with the allied armies against the German Nazis .. they never found any reason to do what these terrorists of today are doing. banning the faith will work in favour of the terrorists



All Abrahamic faith are clear on position regarding homosexuality, it has no relation to Middle East oil or Saudi Arabia or anything mate. I'm not anti-Islam, I equally criticize all these religions. I just believe humans no longer need these religions. And we can't claim everything is just 'extremist' interpretation, as if the God who made revealed this books made so many mistakes and wasn't sure what he is presenting.

Christians and Jews did the same thing, they blamed 'extreme' or 'literal' interpretations for almost everything in the original scriptures. And they took all of it out, and now they claim they have religion that is compatible with modern world. Sure they do, but they just spit in the face of their God, took out all his commandments, laws, and traditions he ordained upon them, and called it a day. So now, it's okay to drink alcohol, okay to be gay, okay to do pre-marital sex, okay to be unfair to other segments of society(poor), okay to not offer prayer, okay to separate Church and state, etc....

They have legitimized forbidden things in their religion and gave religion entire new meaning. If they truly believed in their God, they would not absolutely disregard him in that way, and put words in his mouth. They do so, because they don't actually believe such a God is real, nor do they believe in hell or heaven, let alone an afterlife. Which means they believe religion is man made, and are at least agnostic if not atheist. So if everyone is agnostic, why not identify as such? Because religion still gives them material benefit, power and influence. They took what they need from it, and dumped the core of it.

And world would be much better off if we were just more honest with ourselves, and moved away from religion.

Anyways, that's all I will say on this matter and end it here. 



Nilgiri said:


> Sorry, I didnt read your ending, just saw a lot of religious scripture being quoted so assumption got the better of me. My bad.
> 
> No need to call me a retard though.



Apologize, glad you got it now.

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## C130

hinduguy said:


> dont know... I just think gays are hated in US by religious conservatives and some of the hatred will boil over from time to time... some of the examples in wiki are probably cases in which victim just happens to be gay but many other cases, homophobia was cause for violence.




I've never heard of conservatives killing gays.

gay bashing is pretty much a myth.


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## livingdead

C130 said:


> I've never heard of conservatives killing gays.
> 
> gay bashing is pretty much a myth.


thats the impression I got, I might be wrong. if you have to find commonality among majority of people who have homophobia in US, what would that be? or is it just random people of all sorts of persuasion hating gays?


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## Nilgiri

Falcon29 said:


> All Abrahamic faith are clear on position regarding homosexuality, it has no relation to Middle East oil or Saudi Arabia or anything mate. I'm not anti-Islam, I equally criticize all these religions. I just believe humans no longer need these religions. And we can't claim everything is just 'extremist' interpretation, as if the God who made revealed this books made so many mistakes and wasn't sure what he is presenting.
> 
> Christians and Jews did the same thing, they blamed 'extreme' or 'literal' interpretations for almost everything in the original scriptures. And they took all of it out, and now they claim they have religion that is compatible with modern world. Sure they do, but they just spit in the face of their God, took out all his commandments, laws, and traditions he ordained upon them, and called it a day. So now, it's okay to drink alcohol, okay to be gay, okay to do pre-marital sex, okay to be unfair to other segments of society(poor), okay to not offer prayer, okay to separate Church and state, etc....
> 
> They have legitimized forbidden things in their religion and gave religion entire new meaning. If they truly believed in their God, they would not absolutely disregard him in that way, and put words in his mouth. They do so, because they don't actually believe such a God is real, nor do they believe in hell or heaven, let alone an afterlife. Which means they believe religion is man made, and are at least agnostic if not atheist. So if everyone is agnostic, why not identify as such? Because religion still gives them material benefit, power and influence. They took what they need from it, and dumped the core of it.
> 
> And world would be much better off if we were just more honest with ourselves, and moved away from religion.
> 
> 
> 
> Apologize, glad you got it now.



If there is no god, it would be necessary to invent him. I think Voltaire said that.

Our psyche is still very tribal influenced.

Ideally everyone should be reading philosophy. I find even those that leave religion, end up filling the void with something else others have thought out (like statism, hardcore atheism, leftism, communism etc.) to fill that power structure the human psyche craves. Few are willing to be completely neutral and be like Aristotle, where evidence is the only avenue to ultimate truth. Hopefully one day humanity can migrate towards full rationalism but still keep elements of culture and keep a lively debate on epistemology. Few people even contemplate such things.....fewer still actually explore philosophy deeply. When I read Socrates, Plato and especially Aristotle...it was a wonderful treasure to behold because it was a work in progress...and that has not changed today.

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## dray

hinduguy said:


> I thought its a rightwing christian nutjob when I heard the news.



And I thought....again...!! 

This has become a pretty regular affair, but people are expected to remain politically correct, or to be labelled as victims of phobic disorder.

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## Nilgiri

Rain Man said:


> And I thought....again...!!
> 
> This has become a pretty regular affair, but people are expected to remain politically correct, or to be labelled as victims of phobic disorder.



Thats why Trump is going to win now...I am almost 100% sure of it. Watch over the next few weeks or so what happens politically.

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## livingdead

Rain Man said:


> And I thought....again...!!
> 
> This has become a pretty regular affair, but people are expected to remain politically correct, or to be labelled as victims of phobic disorder.


no.. not really regular.. whenever there is a mass shooting in US I dont go, oh another muslim, rather.. oh no, not again.. you can list the mass shooting in last(choose your own period) and tell us what you think... majority are not perpetrated by muslims.

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## Bratva

SvenSvensonov said:


> A friendly reminder to all service personal... wear your helmet.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742009920808210432
> @waz do you think we could get the thread cleaned up or closed? It's gone waaaaaayyyyy off topic and devolved into a religious discussion.
> 
> Thanks.



We are discussing the mentality and ideology which caused this mayhem. These things still come under the purview of this discussion right? Motivation of the killer ?


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## Viper0011.

iPhone said:


> No, I know. But even with all the training those are still semi-auto rifles the gun stores sell. To be able to kill over 50 people single handadly is just insane.




This little strip where Pulse is, has a lot of Clubs and Bars. This one was for LGBT community but next door and around the Pulse, there are dozens of other bars and clubs for non-LGBT. I've spent a lot of time in those non-LGBT establishments drinking and partying when I'd go to Orlando. This area is the downtown Orlando where everyone goes for dinner, drinking and partying or just with friends to have a good time and enjoy.

In a dance club, there are hundreds of people, one crazy MOFO maniac like this with a large weapon can do a lot of damage in a short while like this bast*ard did. 

What the f**k was the purpose of killing so many innocents who had nothing to do with anything else and who were just enjoying their weekend? Effing ISIS needs to be carpet bombed and their internet and everything else they use to brainwash people in the West should be blocked permanently. We can't afford Americans getting attacked every few months. 

I spoke to a Pakistani doctor friend of mine who lives like a mile away from this. He told me that their entire community is scared and fears retaliation. So bast*ards like this, don't think about others before they commit these acts of terrorism? This is way beyond my common sense. Un-effing believable !!!!!


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## Zulkarneyn

Viper0011. said:


> This little strip where Pulse is, has a lot of Clubs and Bars. This one was for LGBT community but next door and around the Pulse, there are dozens of other bars and clubs for non-LGBT. I've spent a lot of time in those non-LGBT establishments drinking and partying when I'd go to Orlando. This area is the downtown Orlando where everyone goes for dinner, drinking and partying or just with friends to have a good time and enjoy.
> 
> In a dance club, there are hundreds of people, one crazy MOFO maniac like this with a large weapon can do a lot of damage in a short while like this bast*ard did.
> 
> What the f**k was the purpose of killing so many innocents who had nothing to do with anything else and who were just enjoying their weekend? Effing ISIS needs to be carpet bombed and their internet and everything else they use to brainwash people in the West should be blocked permanently. We can't afford Americans getting attacked every few months.
> 
> I spoke to a Pakistani doctor friend of mine who lives like a mile away from this. He told me that their entire community is scared and fears retaliation. So bast*ards like this, don't think about others before they commit these acts of terrorism? This is way beyond my common sense. Un-effing believable !!!!!


I heard some idiots who fleed the club through the backdoor during the shooting, locked it from the outside after escaping for some inexplicable reason. Perhaps the high death tool is due to these retards?


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## BDforever

how come a person go into night club with 3 assault rifles, magazines and gun power without any notice ? wtf going on ?
@SvenSvensonov @Viper0011. and others


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## SOHEIL

What kind of stuff used there!?

+100 dead/injured!!!

M-61 ?


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## Water Car Engineer

Worst mass shooting in US history. Time to heavily restrict the immirgration of people from Muslim countries. Enough of them keep proving they can't adapt to western values.

Sorry, but I love liberal values, if you don't get the **** out.


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## Viper0011.

BDforever said:


> how come a person go into night club with 3 assault rifles, magazines and gun power without any notice ? wtf going on ?
> @SvenSvensonov @Viper0011. and others



I am obviously not qualified to answer this as I wasn't there. But the reports say that he shot the one officer who was working after duty hours. The Club's in the US aren't war-zones like this mother fu**er turned Pulse into. 

These are social get together places designed for people to meet, hang out and have a good time. Obviously these places don't require Police squad cars. Each Club has their own security like a few people watching but they are just there to ensure drunk people don't fight. We live in America, this isn't effing Afghanistan that we need armed soldiers to stand over our shoulders while we drink or eat or dance!!

I think like 9-11, this incident is about to change America ONE more time. And it will create more distance between Muslims and the rest of America. It is every parent's responsibility to notice what type of a behavior their kids are adapting to. Extremism doesn't hide. And if his father didn't report it, and the people in California didn't report it, either of these tragic incidents resulted in dozens of innocents lives lost without ONE FU*C*ING reason!!

My question is, if you don't like America, why the FU** even live here?? Why not go back to the Heaven they left in Afghanistan and taste life?? A country that gave them a MUCH safer life, work, financial benefits and jobs, they have to bite that same country in the as* all the time? WTF??



Zulkarneyn said:


> I heard some idiots who fleed the club through the backdoor during the shooting, locked it from the outside after escaping for some inexplicable reason. Perhaps the high death tool is due to these retards?



If you go inside a night club, it is PACKED with hundreds of people in a tiny place and you can't walk a step before hitting three or four people so you have to be careful. So in such density, anyone with a small weapon can do a lot of damage. This mother fu**er, had an assault rifle, etc, etc!!!!Go effing figure. Unbelievable!! What the hell did those innocent people do to get this? They were merely out to enjoy an evening with their friends and didn't deserve to be shot so brutally!!


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## Zulkarneyn

Viper0011. said:


> I am obviously not qualified to answer this as I wasn't there. But the reports say that he shot the one officer who was working after duty hours. The Club's in the US aren't war-zones like this mother fu**er turned Pulse into.
> 
> These are social get together places designed for people to meet, hang out and have a good time. Obviously these places don't require Police squad cars. Each Club has their own security like a few people watching but they are just there to ensure drunk people don't fight. We live in America, this isn't effing Afghanistan that we need armed soldiers to stand over our shoulders while we drink or eat or dance!!
> 
> I think like 9-11, this incident is about to change America ONE more time. And it will create more distance between Muslims and the rest of America. It is every parent's responsibility to notice what type of a behavior their kids are adapting to. Extremism doesn't hide. And if his father didn't report it, and the people in California didn't report it, either of these tragic incidents resulted in dozens of innocents lives lost without ONE FU*C*ING reason!!
> 
> My question is, if you don't like America, why the FU** even live here?? Why not go back to the Heaven they left in Afghanistan and taste life?? A country that gave them a MUCH safer life, work, financial benefits and jobs, they have to bite that same country in the as* all the time? WTF??


When "Christians" kill it's a nutjob's work. When a "muslim" kills it must be due to his faith he did it. Explain the logic, this exact mentality feeds well into the fundamentalist in both extremes


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## Pandora

RiP to all poor souls

It official now that an Afghan is involved American will be staying in Afghanistan for a very long time.


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## gambit

Zulkarneyn said:


> When "Christians" kill it's a nutjob's work. When a "muslim" kills it must be due to his faith he did it. *Explain the logic*, this exact mentality feeds well into the fundamentalist in both extremes


Sure...Because Muslim countries have similar if not the same attitudes and ways of dealing with issues.


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## Viper0011.

Zulkarneyn said:


> When "Christians" kill it's a nutjob's work. When a "muslim" kills it must be due to his faith he did it. Explain the logic, this exact mentality feeds well into the fundamentalist in both extremes



Is that right? Tell me why this guy killed so many innocents? Tell me what the Fu** ISIS is doing all across? Tell me what the hell California shooters did before the killing spree began? That couple left their little child in the world and abandoned her, for the rest of her life, that child will hear what? Your parents abandoned you to commit terrorism????

And is this the first time a "Muslim" has killed in America?? How many other incidents do we see where callers either openly declare links to other terrorist organizations (like this bast*ard did to 911 officers) or tell them that they are mentally retarded to go kill??

This is ALL due to funding provided by the KSA. Wahabi version of Islam funded in billions has resulted in this. It started from Afghanistan, destroyed Pakistan for decades and is now in Syria and other places and now US has become a target too. Show me in the course of the past year, other religions doing so much mass murder in the name of another religion??

By the way, you never know, I may be a Muslim from African descent......so you aren't talking to a typical American white guy who doesn't know how the globe works........I know it all.... how the religious killing machines have worked from Afghanistan to Africa to Middle East. 

But they don't need to come to America if they hate us so much. In fact, these 50 or 100 people, are making life difficult for the American Muslim population who have lived here since early 1900!!!!. We welcomed Muslim refugees in recent times, and gave all of them a path to success and this is what is returned back to the same system who cared and provided these people with opportunity that they could never have in the hell hole they came from (Afghanistan, ME, etc)??


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## Zulkarneyn

Viper0011. said:


> This is ALL due to funding provided by the KSA. *Wahabi version of Islam funded in billions has resulted in this.* It started from Afghanistan, destroyed Pakistan for decades and is now in Syria and other places and now US has become a target too. Show me in the course of the past year, *other religions doing so much mass murder in the name of another religion*?


Yeah you answered your own question. Religion can not on its own animate atrocities, how these religions are interpreted by interested parties lead people to do these atrocities. And YES it is WAHABISM funded by KSA that feeds into feeble minds everywhere. American invasion into Iraq and ruining that country, creating a vacuum for these extreme ideologies led us to where we are today buddy. If you truly want to end this virus, start by recognizing your own mistakes and then proceed from thence. Perhaps if the USA stops its relations with the KSA we could've seen some changes.

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## Manticore

RIP to the dead.


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## livingdead

Manticore said:


> RIP to the dead,


come on.. dont leave us with a cliffhanger ...

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## Clutch

Natan said:


> Actually, the Jewish religion doesn't consider ANY religion to be an abrahamic religion.
> 
> The Jewish religion simply doesn't recoginize the term 'abrahamic religion'.


Exactly my point. Any preceding religion will never recognize the proceeding religion... especially if the proceeding come under the pretext of reforming the former.



C130 said:


> I've never heard of conservatives killing gays.
> 
> gay bashing is pretty much a myth.


Hitler did it in mass


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## Viper0011.

Zulkarneyn said:


> Yeah you answered your own question. Religion can not on its own animate atrocities, how these religions are interpreted by interested parties lead people to do these atrocities. And YES it is WAHABISM funded by KSA that feeds into feeble minds everywhere. American invasion into Iraq and ruining that country, creating a vacuum for these extreme ideologies led us to where we are today buddy. If you truly want to end this virus, start by recognizing your own mistakes and then proceed from thence. Perhaps if the USA stops its relations with the KSA we could've seen some changes.



Yup, all this is coming. Let Trump come and this will happen. I'd expect Muslims will be much less in numbers when he comes. And I think this incident further strengthened his position on this issue. Can you blame him or the Americans for feeling this way?? No, you can't. When they allowed these people in, this is the payback of providing care and a future to these people??

American isn't next to Iraq or Afghanistan. These effing people came here, went through the process and were given opportunity at life that they otherwise wouldn't have in their own hell-like country. And this is the pay back? This isn't about wars. This is about people who CAME to the US for an opportunity and the USA gave it to them. Allowed these displaced people to use the system, welfare, benefits, etc, etc. And this is the payoff we get!!


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## Clutch

Viper0011. said:


> Is that right? Tell me why this guy killed so many innocents? Tell me what the Fu** ISIS is doing all across? Tell me what the hell California shooters did before the killing spree began? That couple left their little child in the world and abandoned her, for the rest of her life, that child will hear what? Your parents abandoned you to commit terrorism????
> 
> And is this the first time a "Muslim" has killed in America?? How many other incidents do we see where callers either openly declare links to other terrorist organizations (like this bast*ard did to 911 officers) or tell them that they are mentally retarded to go kill??
> 
> This is ALL due to funding provided by the KSA. Wahabi version of Islam funded in billions has resulted in this. It started from Afghanistan, destroyed Pakistan for decades and is now in Syria and other places and now US has become a target too. Show me in the course of the past year, other religions doing so much mass murder in the name of another religion??
> 
> By the way, you never know, I may be a Muslim from African descent......so you aren't talking to a typical American white guy who doesn't know how the globe works........I know it all.... how the religious killing machines have worked from Afghanistan to Africa to Middle East.
> 
> But they don't need to come to America if they hate us so much. In fact, these 50 or 100 people, are making life difficult for the American Muslim population who have lived here since early 1900!!!!. We welcomed Muslim refugees in recent times, and gave all of them a path to success and this is what is returned back to the same system who cared and provided these people with opportunity that they could never have in the hell hole they came from (Afghanistan, ME, etc)??



Well if you for decades drop bombs on people, or don't value lives of others as highly as some others, or use covert measures to overthrow governments, or support oppressive governments... expect s backlash or just stop acting like a 5 year old.


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## Zulkarneyn

Viper0011. said:


> Yup, all this is coming. Let Trump come and this will happen. I'd expect Muslims will be much less in numbers when he comes. And I think this incident further strengthened his position on this issue. Can you blame him or the Americans for feeling this way?? No, you can't. When they allowed these people in, this is the payback of providing care and a future to these people??
> 
> American isn't next to Iraq or Afghanistan. These effing people came here, went through the process and were given opportunity at life that they otherwise wouldn't have in their own hell-like country. And this is the pay back? This isn't about wars. This is about people who CAME to the US for an opportunity and the USA gave it to them. Allowed these displaced people to use the system, welfare, benefits, etc, etc. And this is the payoff we get!!


I've lived most of my life in Denmark. I can't be politically correct forever so im gonna say it. Turks are Sunni Muslims as well, but i've never seen a Turk who baosted with the benefits he/she got from the system and they were grateful for the oppurtunities. This is due to Turkey being somewhat developed compared to the rest of the Middle East, and i remind you Turkey is 99% Muslim as well. 

I don't think this has much to do with the religion Islam. This is mostly due to the backwardness of these countries from Middle East. Islam feeds into the grievances of these people who were brought up under the worst circumstances, and the availability of Wahabism and its extremity is easily indoctrinated in these areas where the youth got no job, no education and fed with anti-West ideas 24/7. You don't solve this problem by bombing these countries back to the stone age, these are human beings, they recreate and they remember. You solve it by cutting the head of the snake, Wahabism. Trace it, fight it with every means. Support the countries most influential and powerful in the region = Turkey.

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## Clutch

Viper0011. said:


> Yup, all this is coming. Let Trump come and this will happen. I'd expect Muslims will be much less in numbers when he comes. And I think this incident further strengthened his position on this issue. Can you blame him or the Americans for feeling this way?? No, you can't. When they allowed these people in, this is the payback of providing care and a future to these people??
> 
> American isn't next to Iraq or Afghanistan. These effing people came here, went through the process and were given opportunity at life that they otherwise wouldn't have in their own hell-like country. And this is the pay back? This isn't about wars. This is about people who CAME to the US for an opportunity and the USA gave it to them. Allowed these displaced people to use the system, welfare, benefits, etc, etc. And this is the payoff we get!!




I think the shooter was born in the usa... now what generous immigration officer?


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## SQ8

Falcon29 said:


> How about we just agree to disagree, I made my points, you disputed them, but at same time won't allow to respond as you're threatening to remove my posts if I do respond. And now that you allowed to me put forth some sources, from a mainstream site(which I chose thinking that will be all you accept), you now dismiss the site and the sources. And express dismay with 'copy paste' the evidence, as if there is any other way to reference the Hadith or Quran verses.
> 
> 
> 
> God destroyed the tribe of Lot and his community for the 'lustful desires' or the gay ones. I'm not sure what's confusing about the story.
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not what happened, Lot was commanded by God to give his people an ultimatum. He warned them and what not, then they threatened to drive him out, but didn't, and rather mocked him. So God destroyed them:
> 
> “Bring God’s torment upon us if you are one of the truthful.” (Quran 29:29)
> “And when Our messengers [i.e., angels] came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, “Indeed, we will destroy the people of that [i.e., Lot’s] city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers.” (Quran 29:31)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tirmidi is not weak or poorly based Hadith, it is actually one of six 'Saheeh' books Sunni's use. Sunan Abu Dawood is also one of those six, authentic hadith, and here is that ruling:
> 
> Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot’s people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
> Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4447
> 
> Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.
> Sunan of Abu-Dawood – Book 38 Hadith 4448
> ....
> 
> Take hadith out, Islam no longer becomes a way of life and just becomes a collection of stories to ponder upon. So your approach makes no sense if you genuinely believe there is more to your supposedly divine religion than just some stories. If you believe religion is man made and should have no influence on state, lifestyle, personal choices, etc....then I don't get the point of pretending to be a Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> You would not know anything about the lifestyle of the Prophet had it not been for Hadith. So I'm dismissing your Quran only approach. Hadith is very essential to Islam, without it, 50% if not more of the religion would be missing.
> 
> And I'm not trying to convince non-Muslims of anything. My initial argument was actually intended to defend Muslims from attacks on their religion by people adhering to other Abrahamic faiths, that attacks Islam for 'backwards' lifestyle, 'barbaric laws', etc....When their own religions actually command putting to death gays for one example.
> 
> Now I'm just proving the hypocrisy of Muslims, Jews and Christians, all that use the same scripture, that are in denial about their religions. And they do a lot of cutting/pasting, to form new books, to give them moral high ground against other people(in this case Islam), to claim Islam is a Satanic religion and the rest are the true religions brought down by God. Like I said, 90% of you don't even know your religions, the ones that do don't bother following them. It's hypocrisy at it's best. Nobody like that impresses me, they can reap token points all they want, I'm straightforward and honest, which is why I don't use religion for personal benefit, and thereby declared myself agnostic-atheist.



Again, someone who spent his time actually reading rather than trying to just get as much writing in the post would realise that I only disputed the sources of that particular hadiath.. and nowhere mentioned to reject them outright or otherwise. But again, that is the mark of someone actually here for debate and not someone out there to spew out as much rhetoric as they can within a short timeframe, and hardly of anyone claiming to be "straightforward" and "honest".

The rest of your post is all tangential and semantics in repetition without even addressing what I put forward. The fact that you confirmed that it was god who took it upon himself to take care of sodom instead of the prophet only reinforces my point.

So I can only conclude that you are no different than the supposed bigotry you are being self righteous in defending and instead are also here to just spew nonsense without understanding; no different than any trump supporter.

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## VCheng

Irfan Baloch said:


> even if its a Muslim then what? or a Pakistani then so what? do I need to stand trial ?
> do we need to apologise for him? I dont feel compelled to have to explain myself. a Saudi never feels ashamed or compelled to explain himself for Daesh mass beheading or bombings in the world.
> 
> the law US enforcement agencies failed to prevent the incident and failed to stop him before the slaughter
> 
> 
> you need to wait until @Syed.Ali.Haider brings us more information



Let the rhetoric and panic die down first. A rational analysis of the profiles involved will reveal much to LEOs to further improve detection and prevention of future attacks. That is the way the process works. The political hysteria in an election year will go on as before, but that is only superficial.


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## Zibago

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let the rhetoric and panic die down first. A rational analysis of the profiles involved will reveal much to LEOs to further improve detection and prevention of future attacks. That is the way the process works. The political hysteria in an election year will go on as before, but that is only superficial.


May this be the incident which results in Americans finally start implementing tougher gun laws and outlaw auto rifles for civis cuz thats the only way to prevent future incidents like this
This incident was a lone wolf type attack gun control is the only way to minimize future incidents like this


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## Hyperion

RIP. This will give Donald Trump extra firepower for the office of POTUS. Get ready for Pakistan to be blamed, one way or the other.

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## Falcon29

SvenSvensonov said:


> @waz do you think we could get the thread cleaned up or closed? It's gone waaaaaayyyyy off topic and devolved into a religious discussion.
> 
> Thanks.



It evolved into a discussion regarding the motive/public aftermath relating to the incident, which is totally on topic. I'm not sure what it is you didn't like about my posts, can you clarify clearly? @Kaptaan seemed to understand the point I was getting across, and also another think tank.

As for the specific motives, nobody here pinned it on religion. We may not know exactly what feelings the guy had or if we had a mental breakdown or what. All we know is he did it in the name of ISIS, appearing politically motivated, maybe due to ISIS's recent decline. However, we don't know if he was that way for awhile or just had a moment to lash out for whatever reasons. So we are not speculating, but the rest was relevant discussion.



Oscar said:


> Again, someone who spent his time actually reading rather than trying to just get as much writing in the post would realise that I only disputed the sources of that particular hadiath.. and nowhere mentioned to reject them outright or otherwise. But again, that is the mark of someone actually here for debate and not someone out there to spew out as much rhetoric as they can within a short timeframe, and hardly of anyone claiming to be "straightforward" and "honest".



Before I had a discussion with you about Hadith, and now you made it clear you'd prefer Quranic sources, which made me assume you only consider those legitimate, so my mistake if I made an unfair assumption. Regarding the Hadith, I did give you the sources. One was Sunan Tirhmidi, the other Sunan Abu Dawood, one of the 6 most reliable books as far as Sunni's goes. The two most authentic are Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim obviously, that doesn't mean the rest aren't. Each play their own role. 

My rhetoric regarding Hadith was fair, because as I said it appeared you reject Hadith. At this point though, I'm not sure what else you're asking me for?


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## Viper0011.

Hyperion said:


> RIP. This will give Donald Trump extra firepower for the office of POTUS. Get ready for Pakistan to be blamed, one way or the other.



Absolutely. In fact, I think this sad and tragic incident just gave Donald Trump edge over everyone else. He may have already won. This will create much more distance between Muslims and the remainder of America. I've seen analyses that a huge Muslim migration is expected. Sad part is, only due to a few fu**ing mofo retards actions against humanity, millions other from the same faith will suffer in some way, whether its social isolation, job discrimination, etc, etc. Very sad. 

Muslim leaders around the world need to take tougher actions on these crazy fu**ing mullahs who teach this nonsense, radical and inhumane version of Islam. While we hear the slogan "Islam is a peaceful religion"...does it feel so??

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## Falcon29

Viper0011. said:


> Absolutely. In fact, I think this sad and tragic incident just gave Donald Trump edge over everyone else. He may have already won. This will create much more distance between Muslims and the remainder of America. I've seen analyses that a huge Muslim migration is expected. Sad part is, only due to a few fu**ing mofo retards actions against humanity, millions other from the same faith will suffer in some way, whether its social isolation, job discrimination, etc, etc. Very sad.
> 
> Muslim leaders around the world need to take tougher actions on these crazy fu**ing mullahs who teach this nonsense, radical and inhumane version of Islam. While we hear the slogan "Islam is a peaceful religion"...does it feel so??



Let him win, so what? What are you so worried about? It's liberals and mainstream media that are expressing panic. If it's so worrying for them that he take office, let them put up a fight or do whatever else they need to do.


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## Zulkarneyn

Viper0011. said:


> Absolutely. In fact, I think this sad and tragic incident just gave Donald Trump edge over everyone else. He may have already won. This will create much more distance between Muslims and the remainder of America. I've seen analyses that a huge Muslim migration is expected. Sad part is, only due to a few fu**ing mofo retards actions against humanity, millions other from the same faith will suffer in some way, whether its social isolation, job discrimination, etc, etc. Very sad.
> 
> Muslim leaders around the world need to take tougher actions on these crazy fu**ing mullahs who teach this nonsense, radical and inhumane version of Islam. *While we hear the slogan "Islam is a peaceful religion"*...does it feel so??


Everything read good until the bold part


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## Viper0011.

Zulkarneyn said:


> I've lived most of my life in Denmark. I can't be politically correct forever so im gonna say it. Turks are Sunni Muslims as well, but i've never seen a Turk who baosted with the benefits he/she got from the system and they were grateful for the oppurtunities. This is due to Turkey being somewhat developed compared to the rest of the Middle East, and i remind you Turkey is 99% Muslim as well.
> 
> I don't think this has much to do with the religion Islam. This is mostly due to the backwardness of these countries from Middle East. Islam feeds into the grievances of these people who were brought up under the worst circumstances, and the availability of Wahabism and its extremity is easily indoctrinated in these areas where the youth got no job, no education and fed with anti-West ideas 24/7. You don't solve this problem by bombing these countries back to the stone age, these are human beings, they recreate and they remember. You solve it by cutting the head of the snake, Wahabism. Trace it, fight it with every means. Support the countries most influential and powerful in the region = Turkey.



Thanks for deciding to open up. Problem is not Islam at the core of it or Muslims as there are 1.4 billion of them and everyone understands that. The problem is, the Muslim world hasn't taken care of their internal mess for decades. The Muslim leaders across the globe need to stand up, stand together and put toughest penalties on effing mullahs who teach others to go murder others. Killing isn't allowed in any religion. These innocent people in Orlando, were just enjoying the night the way their culture is used to. There was NO reason, whatsoever for them to see blood at a social gathering. Let alone, die off bullets as if they came to effing Afghanistan or Syria. 

This problem is being ignored by the world. There needs to be toughest stance and punishments in laws (and enforced) by all Muslim governments to make sure no one provides these teachings and brainwashing to the youth. In that regards, there were recent laws passed by Bangladesh on this terrorism crap and they executed some large clerics who had been involved with this crap. I am not for execution of any human, no matter who they are. But this example shows someone is serious in making sure their society is safe from this mess of terrorism and from teachings that create terrorists. I think other countries should follow Bangladesh and create laws prohibiting extremism teachings (with serious punishments and not just talk)!!


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## hussain0216

Viper0011. said:


> Yup, all this is coming. Let Trump come and this will happen. I'd expect Muslims will be much less in numbers when he comes. And I think this incident further strengthened his position on this issue. Can you blame him or the Americans for feeling this way?? No, you can't. When they allowed these people in, this is the payback of providing care and a future to these people??
> 
> American isn't next to Iraq or Afghanistan. These effing people came here, went through the process and were given opportunity at life that they otherwise wouldn't have in their own hell-like country. And this is the pay back? This isn't about wars. This is about people who CAME to the US for an opportunity and the USA gave it to them. Allowed these displaced people to use the system, welfare, benefits, etc, etc. And this is the payoff we get!!



Revenge, is the motivating factor

You can be someones life long friend but if you are on a constant basis harming people (israel, iraq, Afghanistan etc) that he identifies with he may have a limit to how much he can take

Reality is regardless of the carnage so decades of support for israeli apartheid, repeated involvement in musl8m world, support for tyrants and dictators snd outright war and bombing most muslims cant and wont do anything except be saddened, angry etc

But someone is bound to snap now and then, its a numbers game


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## Viper0011.

Zulkarneyn said:


> Everything read good until the bold part



That's a question majority of the non-Muslim world and majority of the American ask. Does Islam look peaceful when you see people killing innocents in the name of Islam? Like this bast*ards Orlando shooter called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS before he killed dozens of innocent civilians and injured many dozens more? You can't ignore these facts and just dislike the question above. The question is real......and the answer isn't clear!


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## SQ8

Falcon29 said:


> Before I had a discussion with you about Hadith, and now you made it clear you'd prefer Quranic sources, which made me assume you only consider those legitimate, so my mistake if I made an unfair assumption. Regarding the Hadith, I did give you the sources. One was Sunan Tirhmidi, the other Sunan Abu Dawood, one of the 6 most reliable books as far as Sunni's goes. The two most authentic are Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim obviously, that doesn't mean the rest aren't. Each play their own role.
> 
> My rhetoric regarding Hadith was fair, because as I said it appeared you reject Hadith. At this point though, I'm not sure what else you're asking me for?



I havent given a preference for anything. As I stated before, having actual knowledge of religion versus copy pasting is a vast differrence. The basic rule for a Hadiath is that it cannot contradict the Quran, and if it adds something not mentioned at all, then it must have solid background. Im sure reading from wikipedia will give you Sunan Tirmidhi and Abu Dawood but they are not the most reliable books but taken as part of 6 considered having known authentic hadiath. 
However, Sahih Bukhari is taken as the main focus of all hadiath due to much more solid research put into it. Tirmidi is praised for its organisation but has lot of weakly reported Hadiath. Its funny how you admit to it in red but because it enforces your point you have overlooked it as most argumentative folk and not those for actual information would.
What is their own role? This isnt a supporting cast of a play, this is a collection of research on what the prophet said or not. 

If you do not have the knowledge, or cannot bring a solid point.. you can agree to disagree and move on.. but please dont expect to sound authentic on religion when you arent even close. Khalas.



Viper0011. said:


> Thanks for deciding to open up. Problem is not Islam at the core of it or Muslims as there are 1.4 billion of them and everyone understands that. The problem is, the Muslim world hasn't taken care of their internal mess for decades. The Muslim leaders across the globe need to stand up, stand together and put toughest penalties on effing mullahs who teach others to go murder others. Killing isn't allowed in any religion. These innocent people in Orlando, were just enjoying the night the way their culture is used to. There was NO reason, whatsoever for them to see blood at a social gathering. Let alone, die off bullets as if they came to effing Afghanistan or Syria.
> 
> This problem is being ignored by the world. There needs to be toughest stance and punishments in laws (and enforced) by all Muslim governments to make sure no one provides these teachings and brainwashing to the youth. In that regards, there were recent laws passed by Bangladesh on this terrorism crap and they executed some large clerics who had been involved with this crap. I am not for execution of any human, no matter who they are. But this example shows someone is serious in making sure their society is safe from this mess of terrorism and from teachings that create terrorists. I think other countries should follow Bangladesh and create laws prohibiting extremism teachings (with serious punishments and not just talk)!!


What can muslim socieites do when we have an idiot in Orlando supporting terrorism and hatred weeks before this, and then other idiots in places like Michigan and Ohio calling for caliphates and Jihad while they sit pretty to earn their social security. 

I am all for forming a muslim volunteer group that hunts these people down, makes citizen's arrests and ensures that at the very least we deport them out of our country. The Muslim majority countries can take these people and parade them as heroes, dont want none of that here.

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## Clutch

Viper0011. said:


> That's a question majority of the non-Muslim world and majority of the American ask. Does Islam look peaceful when you see people killing innocents in the name of Islam? Like this bast*ards Orlando shooter called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS before he killed dozens of innocent civilians and injured many dozens more? You can't ignore these facts and just dislike the question above. The question is real......and the answer isn't clear!




It's only going to get worse... just fyi.

The war in terror is only going to create more terrorists. Like or not... the mess isn't going to just stay in the Muslim land.


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## VCheng

Zibago said:


> May this be the incident which results in Americans finally start implementing tougher gun laws and outlaw auto rifles for civis cuz thats the only way to prevent future incidents like this
> This incident was a lone wolf type attack gun control is the only way to minimize future incidents like this



Let us wait for the investigation to complete, but one thing is clear: It is totally false of the shooter's father and the family to say that they had no idea. Such lies do a huge disservice. The process of such radicalization is evident to family members, but they choose to stay silent, making them culpable as well, at least morally.

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## Clutch

Viper0011. said:


> Absolutely. In fact, I think this sad and tragic incident just gave Donald Trump edge over everyone else. He may have already won. This will create much more distance between Muslims and the remainder of America. I've seen analyses that a huge Muslim migration is expected. Sad part is, only due to a few fu**ing mofo retards actions against humanity, millions other from the same faith will suffer in some way, whether its social isolation, job discrimination, etc, etc. Very sad.
> 
> Muslim leaders around the world need to take tougher actions on these crazy fu**ing mullahs who teach this nonsense, radical and inhumane version of Islam. While we hear the slogan "Islam is a peaceful religion"...does it feel so??




I think American Muslims are living in borrowed time. The visible muslims would be the first to migrate to avoid the backlash. The liberal ones will get the brunt the worst because they will be only ones left to bear the onslaught.


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## Chinese-Dragon

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let us wait for the investigation to complete, but one thing is clear: It is totally false of the shooter's father and the family to say that they had no idea. Such lies do a huge disservice. The process of such radicalization is evident to family members, but they choose to stay silent, making them culpable as well, at least morally.



This is true. For example, the Paris attack mastermind (Abdeslam) was in fact very well known in Belgium. People know, they just don't want to say anything.


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## Jackdaws

What is ironic is that this virulent strain of Wahabi Islam has been fueled by Western petro-dollars paid to Saudi Arabia. The US was scared of the spread of communism and spent billions in countering it even though the Soviet Union spent $7 billion to spread communist ideology. In contrast, Saudi Arabia has spent over $100 billion to spread its narrow minded Wahabi Islam and has been the the equivalent of taking a wrecking ball to many societies. The major Islamic countries need to step in and stop this radicalism. Sad, how these retards driven by religion pick the softest and most defenseless of targets.


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## jhungary

LeGenD said:


> Clash of ideals, I would say.
> 
> Not condoning the killings in any way or form, but I won't shy away from expressing my displeasure of perversion of societal values in the form of LGBT movement. I despise the filth of LGBT and Terrorism equally.
> 
> 
> Billions?



Thinks he included the people killed by Ottoman and Persian era........They were Muslim and they did conquered most of the Europe by force.


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## Zibago

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Let us wait for the investigation to complete, but one thing is clear: It is totally false of the shooter's father and the family to say that they had no idea. Such lies do a huge disservice. The process of such radicalization is evident to family members, but they choose to stay silent, making them culpable as well, at least morally.


How do you differentiate between a hater and a potential killer?



Clutch said:


> I think American Muslims are living in borrowed time. The visible muslims would be the first to migrate to avoid the backlash. The liberal ones will get the brunt the worst because they will be only ones left to bear the onslaught.


At worst there would be increased survelliance and distrust by general population thats it and Muslims will start hiding their religion and that is the very worst that could happen even under a Trump administration


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## Anubis

I used to live in Georgia...but when I moved to NY I found out that my landlord sends his kids to madrasas....I was kind of surprised to learn that madrasas existed in the US...but after finding out how conservative people were that they would risk their children's futures(I mean who is going to hire a madrasa graduate here) I was kind of shocked...we need to find out the sources of radicalization...madrasas and mosques should be monitored(and I mean not just during friday prayers...I do not think people would scream "Death to America" in public gatherings of friday prayers...monitor them in off hours...when small groups of people meet(thats where the real shit happens...atleast in BD thats how it worked) and target groups vulnerable to radicalization(not 70 year old Muslim grandmas) ie young kids...college students and monitor their internet usage....none of the things I mentioned are that hard to do.


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## Viper0011.

Clutch said:


> I think American Muslims are living in borrowed time. The visible muslims would be the first to migrate to avoid the backlash. The liberal ones will get the brunt the worst because they will be only ones left to bear the onslaught.



"onslaught"......is an interesting and seriously wrong term. This is America we are talking about.The most welcoming and most accepting nation on the planet. I would be highly surprised if things go to that level where people are attacked, this is simply not the American society who does crap like this. We know better. 

I was referring to some increase in discrimination at employment and some issues economically with businesses and stuff. But nothing too drastic. But the American Muslims will be protected under the same constitution I or anyone else is. We are not India where a minority member can be killed like a fly because he or she ate beef, or China, where someone can be disappeared if they talked about "the Party in a disobedient way". 

America doesn't work like that, its that simple. We respect humanity even if we have strong feelings about some issue. On my way home every day, I see an Islamic Center off of one of the main roads I drive on. The beauty of America is, even after these attacks, we know that Muslims are humans and not everyone's a bad guy. In fact, 99% have lived here peacefully for decades, going back to 1900's. So, keeping that in mind, I saw double the police presence their today due to these sad incidents that took place, just to protect any retaliation. I saw the same on a Synagogue and a big Church this morning too. 

ONLY in America, you'll find this level of constitutional protection. Nowhere on Earth will this happen like this. That moment, these things make you proud of your country , the system and the law enforcement guys who understood that no matter what happened yesterday, they needed to protect general public and stop another yesterday from happening. This speaks volumes for our American values of protecting human rights and lives.

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## Butchcassidy

Zibago said:


> May this be the incident which results in Americans finally start implementing tougher gun laws and outlaw auto rifles for civis cuz thats the only way to prevent future incidents like this
> This incident was a lone wolf type attack gun control is the only way to minimize future incidents like this


Civis cannot buy auto rifles, all of them are semi auto.


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## pakdefender

The killers father is a pro-indian afghan , the indian government has been supporting him


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## Anubis

Butchcassidy said:


> *Civis cannot buy auto rifles,* all of them are semi auto.


Yes they can...I think they call them class 3 firearms.


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## jeypore

Anubis said:


> I used to live in Georgia...



Where in GA? if you do not mind asking this question.


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## Anubis

jeypore said:


> Where in GA? if you do not mind asking this question.


Druid Valley Drive,ATL.

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## jhungary

What surprised me is that Orlando, FL was with another High Profile Fatal Shooting just 2 days prior, singer Christina Grimmie was killed by a lone gunmen (which eventually shot himself death during the struggle with her brother), the local PD should have been on high alert due to this high profile incident, and still 50 people were killed which would suggest Police Mishandling the situation.

RIP to all the victim, both on the June 10 Shooting and June 12 Mass Shooting.


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## Red-Bull

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-strong-ties-country-s-President-Erdogan.html


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## cloud_9

His fathers statement just seals the deal and clears the way for America's first Orange president.The irony is most Trump supporters are homophobic conservatives.

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## pakdefender

noksss said:


>



making fun of people with downs syndrome is not funny but since you and your fellow Indians are poorly educated , this is expected from you

The killers father is pro-indian afghan who has support form indian government for running anti-Pakistan not for profit durrand Jirga show


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## Water Car Engineer

pakdefender said:


> making fun of people with downs syndrome is not funny but since you and your fellow Indians are poorly educated , this is expected from you
> 
> The killers father is pro-indian afghan who has support form indian government for running anti-Pakistan not for profit durrand Jirga show



His father is a Afghan nationalist, and not a fan of Pakistan(What big surprise). You can find plenty of them on the internet. Most of these nationalist are beyond harmless. His son is a radicalized, already unstable character. There is a big difference. It's rather hilarious you bring an Indian angle into this, but not surprising. No one is going to take you seriously.


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## noksss

pakdefender said:


> making fun of people with downs syndrome is not funny but since you and your fellow Indians are poorly educated , this is expected from you
> 
> The killers father is pro-indian afghan who has support form indian government for running anti-Pakistan not for profit durrand Jirga show


Provide enough proof about Indian Government link to his father and then talk about the syndrome Indians have


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## iPhone

Viper0011. said:


> Thanks for deciding to open up. Problem is not Islam at the core of it or Muslims as there are 1.4 billion of them and everyone understands that. The problem is, the Muslim world hasn't taken care of their internal mess for decades. The Muslim leaders across the globe need to stand up, stand together and put toughest penalties on effing mullahs who teach others to go murder others. Killing isn't allowed in any religion. These innocent people in Orlando, were just enjoying the night the way their culture is used to. There was NO reason, whatsoever for them to see blood at a social gathering. Let alone, die off bullets as if they came to effing Afghanistan or Syria.
> 
> This problem is being ignored by the world. There needs to be toughest stance and punishments in laws (and enforced) by all Muslim governments to make sure no one provides these teachings and brainwashing to the youth. In that regards, there were recent laws passed by Bangladesh on this terrorism crap and they executed some large clerics who had been involved with this crap. I am not for execution of any human, no matter who they are. But this example shows someone is serious in making sure their society is safe from this mess of terrorism and from teachings that create terrorists. I think other countries should follow Bangladesh and create laws prohibiting extremism teachings (with serious punishments and not just talk)!!


It's great that we're talking about this iasue. The backwardness of the most muslim countries can be one the main problems but in this case and that of syed farooq, both individuals were born and raised in this country. Both individuals had access to the best resources and quality of life. And both decided to take innocent life away in a heartbeat without any consideration.

Meanwhile, the muslim immigrants from the backwards countries are busting their asses in this country diving cabs 20 hours a day, running halal food trucks on the corner seven days a week, doing minimal paying construction jobs here and there. Ain't none of them picking up Ar-15s to shoot up their work place or nightclubs. But well the integrated folks like you and many others consider them to be the problem. 

Today, the same poor muslim work force will be ridiculed across this country and backlashed against to no fault of their own. As much of problem that many people think the poor and backward muslim population is they are never the ones to pull the trigger on anyone and commit acts of violence.


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## Irfan Baloch

Bratva said:


> Prophet PBUH recommended it. Homosexuals got killed in the era of Caliphs. Just saying that ISIS type guys do have justifications for their killing from within the Islam. There was no issue as of today because they,muslims, were ignorant of their own religion as rightly pointed by Falcon29.


*This post is not a challenge or confrontation, just thinking loud*

Then this means chaos and what the death cults in all their manifestations claim is the true faith and I am the deviant one. I recall one radio conversation between a Pak army soldier and a TTP operative who responded that we kill you all including your women and children because we don’t consider you Muslims. This response was to the Hadith soldier quoted saying “Muslim is one from whom other Muslim is safe verbally and physically”.

Is any Muslim sanctioned to carry out the execution of gays, rapists, murderers, blasphemers and deviants in his own capacity? Is there a blanket approval for every faithful to resort to violence and deadly force? Is it not the authority of an Islamic government? In our country, the faithful already execute people on blasphemy, honour and sectarian bases so does sodomy also need to be added as an excuse as well?

I mentioned every potential target because the death cults are very generous in the helpful interpretation of sources of sheriah in their favour I only see chaos in the world where every faithful Muslim only sees violence & hatred as an expression of his faith. If this is the truth then I am a legitimate target for the death cult because I would rather defer the fate of such people to the Creator in the judgement day.

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## Red-Bull

Dave Rubin
@daverubin
yesterday
*Orlando Terror Attack is a Wake Up Call to Gays, Women, and You*

Ugh, where to begin on a day like this? Really there is no other way than just to flat out say what happened. A radical Islamist murdered at least 50 people and wounded over 50 others at a gay club in Orlando. In America. In 2016.

50 innocent people are dead. Full stop. No need for questions or qualifications. This is abject horror on a scale that is becoming more and more common all over the globe from Paris to Brussels to Tel Aviv, and now Orlando. The more common it becomes the more dull we become to it. There is a new normal taking root and we must stop it now.

OK, now let me pause, and once again, for roughly the billionth time say that not all Muslims are terrorists. Muslims are people, and often hold beliefs as varying and inconsistent as people of any other religion or creed. Islam is a religion, a book with words, that can be, and often is used, as an excuse to murder innocent people. There is a difference between people and ideas, and it's the people who act on bad ideas whom we must be concerned about. I know I won't get any credit from the far left who cry 'Islamophobia!' every time I critique this set of ideas like I do any other, but they haven't beaten me into submission yet.

*For the record, the word 'Islamophobia' was made up by the Muslim Brotherhood *and has no real world meaning. A phobia is an irrational fear. If you are gay or or Jewish or female or a non-believer, there is nothing irrational about fearing Islam. This is a set of ideas which would have you killed or subjugated in a myriad of ways if interpreted literally, which is exactly what's being done in many places throughout the world.

Imagine if there was a political party that believed in forcing women to dress head to toe, endorsed throwing gays off roofs, and killing apostates who left the party. Every sane person, both left and right in America, would be rightfully against this backwards ideology. Yet for some reason, as a religion, this set of ideas gets a pass. And not only does it get a pass, it gets handled with kid gloves, tacitly endorsed or intentionally obfuscated by Western intellectuals. Of course, irony being what it is, Radical Islam will come for these apologists right after they're done with the gays, the women, and the other assorted infidels.

Today is Gay Pride here in West Hollywood where I live. It is possibly the biggest, most over the top, raucous gay pride parade there is in the entire world. West Hollywood itself is thought of as a 'gay city' with our rainbow crosswalks and endless gay bars and establishments. I'm proud to live in a city that not only stands for my rights as a human being, but actively celebrates them. After I write this I'm heading to the parade to take part in what was intended to be a giant party, but today becomes an act of defiance.
*
I will not sit quietly as backwards thinking and oppressive ideas take root in my city, my country, or my world. I will not be cowed by insincere cries of racism and bigotry when I stand up for the very liberal values that let me live as a free man. I will not be silenced out of fear of an ideology that would have me killed. I will not give an inch, because it will never stop taking.
*

I don't have the answer of how to stop Radical Islam and unlike most pundits on TV, online blowhards or Twitter warriors, I won't pretend to either. What I do know is that we must stand together to fight back an ideology that would happily send us back into the dark ages.

I hope, in the shadow of this monstrous event, that you too will take stock of the reality of the world as it is, not as you want it to be. It doesn't matter if you're black or white, Republican or Democrat, religious or atheist. The time to stand up for freedom is now. If you care about women, if you care about gays, if you care about free thinkers, or even if you only care about the ultimate minority, yourself, then you must fight for the right to live as a free human being.

The choice is yours.

https://www.allthink.com/1337197


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## Irfan Baloch

Falcon29 said:


> All Abrahamic faith are clear on position regarding homosexuality, it has no relation to Middle East oil or Saudi Arabia or anything mate. I'm not anti-Islam, I equally criticize all these religions. I just believe humans no longer need these religions. And we can't claim everything is just 'extremist' interpretation, as if the God who made revealed this books made so many mistakes and wasn't sure what he is presenting.
> ..


I hear you (and agree mostly and thank you for your time) but I don't see it as a religious problem but a human behavioural problem

something else will replace this genocidal and violent tendency.. ultra nationalism, racism or anti-theism Gangez Khan or Nazis, Stalin didn't burden themselves from having to justify their genocides .. they termed it as a logical thing to do. its a human nature to become genocidal towards lesser races. A sense of superiority


when he is confident of being superior in every aspect then he must eliminate all lesser selves of his kind to purify the gene pool & so seeking absolution and perfection he seeks out to eliminate all lesser beings

oh by the way, this death cult is an experiment of our Western governments and their Arab Allies.. the top tier of Daesh consists of atheist members of Sadam's military. Islam is just a convenient mascot for them. its a happy coincidence for them that they find response and support among the Muslim extremists.

I will try to explain how Islam is different from other faiths in its dealing with extremists & literals.
let me end my argument with a short mention of a fight between Ali (*4th *Islamic caliph) and Kharjites.. who were absolute in their literal interpretation and saw no room for moderation and declared war on entire Islam (to them everyone else was a kafir who didn't accept their interpretation) they were defeated repeatedly over the course of history but resurfaced again and again and were predicted to resurface with black flags again to spill the blood like water.

religion is a tool of convenience. it was used successfully in Afghanistan against the soviets. and yet again it is being used perfectly against the last remaining pro Russian regimes (i.e Syria & Iran). I am sorry but I cant dispel my doubts about the authenticity of Daesh.. its a lab creature of world powers who are redrawing the middle eastern map. these scumbags wont stand a chance if the world power are sincere in taking them out.

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## Gibbs

noksss said:


> Provide enough proof about Indian Government link to his father and then talk about the syndrome Indians have



Leaving aside the argument about invalid proof, But you posting ridiculing comment about people with downs syndrome makes you out to be even a bigger moron and highly uncalled for

There are better more sensible ways of making your point


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## VCheng

Chinese-Dragon said:


> This is true. For example, the Paris attack mastermind (Abdeslam) was in fact very well known in Belgium. People know, they just don't want to say anything.



Society-at-large knows that certain people know beforehand and choose not to do anything. The key is to encourage such people to come forward and do their civic duty to protect others. This change in attitude will take some time to accomplish, but it will happen, of that I am sure. 



Zibago said:


> How do you differentiate between a hater and a potential killer?



The profiles are quite distinguishable. However, this is still a learning process before predictive algorithms will be refined to increase their effectiveness. This is a work-in-progress for now.


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## Sparkle229

Irfan Baloch said:


> I hear you (and agree mostly and thank you for your time) but I don't see it as a religious problem but a human behavioural problem
> 
> something else will replace this genocidal and violent tendency.. ultra nationalism, racism or anti-theism Gangez Khan or Nazis, Stalin didn't burden themselves from having to justify their genocides .. they termed it as a logical thing to do. its a human nature to become genocidal towards lesser races. A sense of superiority
> 
> 
> when he is confident of being superior in every aspect then he must eliminate all lesser selves of his kind to purify the gene pool & so seeking absolution and perfection he seeks out to eliminate all lesser beings
> 
> oh by the way, this death cult is an experiment of our Western governments and their Arab Allies.. the top tier of Daesh consists of atheist members of Sadam's military. Islam is just a convenient mascot for them. its a happy coincidence for them that they find response and support among the Muslim extremists.
> 
> I will try to explain how Islam is different from other faiths in its dealing with extremists & literals.
> let me end my argument with a short mention of a fight between Ali (3rd Islamic caliph) and Kharjites.. who were absolute in their literal interpretation and saw no room for moderation and declared war on entire Islam (to them everyone else was a kafir who didn't accept their interpretation) they were defeated repeatedly over the course of history but resurfaced again and again and were predicted to resurface with black flags again to spill the blood like water.
> 
> religion is a tool of convenience. it was used successfully in Afghanistan against the soviets. and yet again it is being used perfectly against the last remaining pro Russian regimes (i.e Syria & Iran). I am sorry but I cant dispel my doubts about the authenticity of Daesh.. its a lab creature of world powers who are redrawing the middle eastern map. these scumbags wont stand a chance if the world power are sincere in taking them out.


Hey man hazrat Ali (r.a) was the fourth caliph of islam

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## -SINAN-

Viper0011. said:


> What the f**k was the purpose of killing so many innocents who had nothing to do with anything else and who were just enjoying their weekend? Effing ISIS needs to be carpet bombed and their internet and everything else they use to brainwash people in the West should be blocked permanently. We can't afford Americans getting attacked every few months.



I don't think this incident is related with ISIS....once in a while in US, some crazy mofo sprays his machine gun over innocent souls...

As i see, this is the price you have to pay, for giving any kinds of weapons to US citizens without any constraint. Out of millions of people there will be some mofos like this and the previous ones.

This is not the first and will be the last incident with the gun laws you have.

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## v9s

Falcon29 said:


> *All Abrahamic faith are clear on position regarding homosexuality*, it has no relation to Middle East oil or Saudi Arabia or anything mate. I'm not anti-Islam, I equally criticize all these religions. I just believe humans no longer need these religions. And we can't claim everything is just 'extremist' interpretation, as if the God who made revealed this books made so many mistakes and wasn't sure what he is presenting.



Exactly. As per the Quran, homosexuality is a sin and is condemned - but there is no punishment to be dealt out to them - certainly not death.



Falcon29 said:


> They have legitimized forbidden things in their religion and gave religion entire new meaning. If they truly believed in their God, they would not absolutely disregard him in that way, and put words in his mouth. They do so, because they don't actually believe such a God is real, nor do they believe in hell or heaven, let alone an afterlife. Which means they believe religion is man made, and are at least agnostic if not atheist. So if everyone is agnostic, why not identify as such? Because religion still gives them material benefit, power and influence. They took what they need from it, and dumped the core of it.



And the Muslims created the hadith and sunnah, soon after the prophet's death. Contrary to what you've claimed, Hadith and sunnah are not essential to Islam, nor do they form 50% of Islam - but you're right if you're talking about the version of "Islam" a majority of the Muslim world follows.

So yes, Muslims have disregarded the word of God (Quran) and cling to man-made heresay (Hadith & Sunnah).


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## T-123456

May they rest in peace.

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## Desert Fox

Sinan said:


> I don't think this incident is related with ISIS....once in a while in US, some crazy mofo sprays his machine gun over innocent souls...
> 
> As i see, this is the price you have to pay, for giving any kinds of weapons to US citizens without any constraint. Out of millions of people there will be some mofos like this and the previous ones.
> 
> This is not the first and will be the last incident with the gun laws you have.


It's not the gun laws. Stop blaming the guns for once. Gun's don't get up and start shooting people. It's criminals who do that. This guy and his family had a history of sympathizing with militant extremist organizations but authorities failed to act because they didn't want to prosecute a Muslim who said a couple of homophobic hateful things. *Look at France and Belgium, those countries have very tough gun laws yet terrorists managed to get their hands on full auto assault rifles and explosives.*

If you think law abiding American citizens are going to surrender their Constitutional right to own firearms just because some Muslim from the Middle East couldn't control his urge to become a terrorist then you're in for a surprise. It's more likely that American Muslims will be viewed with even more suspicion now and slowly stripped of their certain constitutional rights. Don't expect rest of America to suffer just because Muslims can't get their act straight.

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## Mentee

Rip 



Who.Cares said:


> RIP
> 
> 
> Moron, you said Pakistani without any source. Muslims have same name and there are more than 55+ Islamic countries.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-identified-by-police-us-media-a7077936.html
> 
> Anyway, Afghani, Friend of India.



There is an inbuilt keera in sanghis which don't let them calm down. Even at the mention of aliens that keera irritates them as hell to blame Pak......


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## Butchcassidy

Anubis said:


> Yes they can...I think they call them class 3 firearms.


My mistake, title 2 firearms can be bought but are very expensive. I was looking into a russian ak but it was 28000, so i let the idea drop

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## noksss

Gibbs said:


> Leaving aside the argument about invalid proof, But you posting ridiculing comment about people with downs syndrome makes you out to be even a bigger moron and highly uncalled for
> 
> There are better more sensible ways of making your point



Person A : Talked about some syndrome Indians Have
Person B (Me) : Asked him to provide enough proof about what he said instead of talking about syndrome
Person C (You) : Accuses me of ridiculing people with downs syndrome

I will leave it to the @mods to assume who is the biggest moron here


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## -SINAN-

Desert Fox said:


> It's not the gun laws. *Stop blaming the guns for once*. Gun's don't get up and start shooting people. It's criminals who do that. This guy and his family had a history of sympathizing with militant extremist organizations but authorities failed to act because they didn't want to prosecute a Muslim who said a couple of homophobic hateful things. *Look at France and Belgium, those countries have very tough gun laws yet terrorists managed to get their hands on full auto assault rifles and explosives.*
> 
> If you think law abiding American citizens are going to surrender their Constitutional right to own firearms just because some Muslim from the Middle East couldn't control his urge to become a terrorist then you're in for a surprise. It's more likely that American Muslims will be viewed with even more suspicion now and slowly stripped of their certain constitutional rights. Don't expect rest of America to suffer just because Muslims can't get their act straight.


First of all, I'm not blaming the guns...what i'm saying is, if you allow maniac people to access such weaponry, there will be always incidents like this.

Be it a Muslim.

Or, some kid who got angry because he can't get laid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings

Or by some people who doesn't have really a motive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre 

I'm saying as long as citizens of US have full access to fire arms, this incidents will continue to happen.

And i'm not suggesting anything...it's their country, their decision.

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## gambit

Sinan said:


> First of all, I'm not blaming the guns...what i'm saying is, if you allow maniac people to access such weaponry, there will be always incidents like this.


How would you know someone is a 'maniac' to start ? What do you want to do, perform psyche test on the entire population ? You call Mateen a 'maniac' after the fact. After he killed. If you want to be called a 'Dr', there are things you must prove to current Drs. that you have earned the privilege to be in their ranks. Same idea with being a soldier, an athlete, a plumber, or an actor. But how do you expect us to know if someone has within himself 'extremist' religious views with intent on committing violence against those who do not shares his beliefs ?

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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> How would you know someone is a 'maniac' to start ? What do you want to do, perform psyche test on the entire population ? You call Mateen a 'maniac' after the fact. After he killed. If you want to be called a 'Dr', there are things you must prove to current Drs. that you have earned the privilege to be in their ranks. Same idea with being a soldier, an athlete, a plumber, or an actor. But how do you expect us to know if someone has within himself 'extremist' religious views with intent on committing violence against those who do not shares his beliefs ?


I don't know.  I'm not an expert on this issue, not a law-maker or a psychiatrist. I don't know the best solution for US.

I'm just sharing my opinion. But not every country in the world being haunted by mass killings done by it's citizens...


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## Red-Bull

Sinan said:


> not every country in the world being haunted by mass killings done by it's citizens...


but many countries are being haunted by jihadist killings, yours and mine included.


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## Irfan Baloch

Sparkle229 said:


> Hey man hazrat Ali (r.a) was the fourth caliph of islam


thanks for your valued input
I am making the correction to my post now


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> I don't know.  I'm not an expert on this issue, not a law-maker or a psychiatrist. I don't know the best solution for US.


Then do not talk.



Sinan said:


> I'm just sharing my opinion.


If your opinion is not based upon facts and reason, it is worthless, sorry to say that.



Sinan said:


> But not every country in the world being haunted by mass killings done by it's citizens...


I have been to your country, buddy. I can find plenty of things to criticize.

The point here is that if you want to opine on something about a country that is as alien to your citizens as the Moon is to us Earthlings, examine your own knowledge and/or do some research if necessary, before you speak.

Law enforcement is always reactive, meaning we respond only *AFTER* the event. If you want to be proactive, then admit you have an oppressive police state.

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## -SINAN-

Red-Bull said:


> but many countries are being haunted by jihadist killings, yours and mine included.


That's another issue to be resolved.

What's i'm saying is, whatever might be the motive behind these attacks, attackers can obtain heavy weaponry due to gun laws.


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## Red-Bull

Sinan said:


> That's another issue to be resolved.
> 
> What's i'm saying is, whatever might be the motive behind these attacks, attackers can obtain heavy weaponry due to gun laws.


no, US gun laws are not the problem here, even if they ban guns and become like most of the other countries in that respect, the criminals and terrorists will still always manage to get them. 

Their constitutional right to own firearms is actually a pretty great thing imo, there is a saying that goes 'an armed society is a polite society'


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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> Then do not talk.
> 
> 
> If your opinion is not based upon facts and reason, it is worthless, sorry to say that.
> 
> 
> I have been to your country, buddy. I can find plenty of things to criticize.
> 
> The point here is that if you want to opine on something about a country that is as alien to your citizens as the Moon is to us Earthlings, examine your own knowledge and/or do some research if necessary, before you speak.
> 
> Law enforcement is always reactive, meaning we respond only *AFTER* the event. If you want to be proactive, then admit you have an oppressive police state.


I don't understand why you are getting angry....

*In my country crazy mofos don't have access to heavy weaponry but in yours they can obtain and they commit mass killings. 
*
I'm not a citizen of US, i'm not the one to find a solution...If you insist, i would say;

- Either create a system where you can detect crazy mofos and not allow them to have weapons.
- If you can't create such a system, don't give guns to civilians.
- If you say, it's the right of every US citizen to have a gun....then these incidents will continue to happen.

But it's not my place to say anything, your country, your rules.
*
*

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## gambit

Sinan said:


> I don't understand why you are getting angry....
> 
> *In my country crazy mofos don't have access to heavy weaponry but in yours they can obtain and they commit mass killings.*


How do you know they are crazy ?

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## -SINAN-

Red-Bull said:


> no, US gun laws are not the problem here, even if they ban guns and become like most of the other countries in that respect, the criminals and terrorists will still always manage to get them.
> 
> Their constitutional right to own firearms is actually a pretty great thing imo, there is a saying that goes 'an armed society is a polite society'


Let's agree to disagree.


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> Let's agree to disagree.


That is a coward's way out. You took a position. Defend it.

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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> How do you know they are crazy ?


Do you ask ...."how could you know beforehand they commit the mass killing" ? I dunno... 



Sinan said:


> - Either create a system where you can detect crazy mofos and not allow them to have weapons.
> - If you can't create such a system, don't give guns to civilians.
> - If you say, it's the right of every US citizen to have a gun....then these incidents will continue to happen.





gambit said:


> That is a coward's way out. You took a position. Defend it.


Lol, i don't get the hype.....

I'm saying this.


Sinan said:


> What's i'm saying is, whatever might be the motive behind these attacks, attackers can obtain heavy weaponry due to gun laws.



However, you are asking me a way, "To both have the gun laws, and be able to prevent crazy mofos from obtaining heavy weapons"..... and i gave you my reply.


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> Do you ask ...."how could you know beforehand they commit the mass killing" ? I dunno...


Fine...Then let us say that since your religion have ideas that people can interpret in many ways and do harmful things to other people, let us ban that religion.

See how stupid that sounds ?

Do you support that you have the right to *A* religion, any religion ? Do you believe that you have the right to take on any religion without taking a mental health test for it ? If you answer 'Yes' to both, then apply that to cars, knives, and guns.

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## livingdead

I like the US system of ordinary people allowed to have gun to defend themselves, gun is a great equalizer as some US comedian(bill burr?) said once... and somebody like me who is barely 70kg, it gives me an opportunity to defend myself. I am a law abiding citizen with no known mental health issues, so I would not mind having a gun.

The issue is 'other people'... everybody else out there(except my extended family) are retards/****les and dangerous with gun... I would prefer to live in a place where I am not at constant threat(of police brutality, home invasion, armed robbery)..


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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> Fine...Then let us say that since your religion have ideas that people can interpret in many ways and do harmful things to other people, let us ban that religion.
> 
> See how stupid that sounds ?
> 
> Do you support that you have the right to *A* religion, any religion ? Do you believe that you have the right to take on any religion without taking a mental health test for it ? If you answer 'Yes' to both, then apply that to cars, knives, and guns.


Look, to a point you are right, in your comparison.

Let's say, you banned Islam...and these jihad related incidents ceased to exist. But there will be still incidents with other motives, like that guy shoot 7 people because he couldn't get laid. You can't ban all of the motives behind the attacks.

Ban the guns.... all incidents ceased to exist. (mass shootings)


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## Jf Thunder

Arabian Stallion said:


> What are you blabbering about? What has Daesh to do with KSA? None of its leaders are from KSA, it was not founded in KSA or by any Saudi Arabian individual. Nor has it anything to do with KSA. There are more Chechens in ISIS than people from KSA despite KSA bordering Iraq/Syria directly and being a fellow Arab country. Despite Chechens only numbering 3-4 million people worldwide.
> Anyway why do you need to include KSA and Arabs in a thread that has nothing to do with KSA or Arabs? Then you complain about Indians doing the same with Pakistan and Pakistanis.
> 
> Maybe you should look up your ethnicity (Baloch) despite numbering less than 10 million and their role in Al-Qaeda and Islamic militancy. Few rivals out there.
> 
> The mastermind behind 9/11 was a Baloch:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed
> 
> Also I believe that Pakistan has quite a problem with Baloch terrorists do you not? You can't stop obsessing about the 450 million Arabs it seems. Pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Baloch,
> 
> I was not the one who started blabbering about ethnicity or in this case KSA or Arabs which have absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Let alone Daesh. You were. Have you already forgotten this?
> 
> As for the rest of your post, I have not argued otherwise. Terrorists and mental cases like this one represent 0,0001% of their ethnicity, nationality etc. everywhere. Nor has this action anything to do with Islam or anything remotely sane. However you shall not expect to be able to write nonsense about KSA, Arabs etc. and think that no Arab user here will question your bullshit.
> 
> Lastly why don't you blame KSA, Saudi Arabians and to a lesser degree other Arabs for everything negative that every single of the 1.6 billion Muslims do? After all what is today KSA is the cradle of Islam. Of Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Sufism etc. You name it. I would not put it past you to do so, lol.


oh shut up Arab, the Middle East around you burning, the whole world is blaming you for exporting terrorism, Bin Laden was one of yours, you rivaled USA in the fundings of the Taliban, your waging a war in a foreign country, you at least have no right to point fingers at other

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## vostok

Normal people die every day throughout the world, and nobody cares. But when someone killed a bunch of faggots, it becomes the number one news.

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## livingdead

vostok said:


> Normal people dies every day throughout the world, and nobody cares. But when someone kills a bunch of faggots, it becomes the number one news.


lol.. your think tank is overflowing


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> ...banned Islam...
> 
> Ban the guns....


Some ideas are so absurd that they do not deserve even the benefit of being in the hypothetical.


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## bsruzm

gambit said:


> Then let us say that since your religion have ideas that people can interpret in many ways and do harmful things to other people, let us ban that religion.


Is Islam a gun?



gambit said:


> See how stupid that sounds ?


I see


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## gambit

bsruzm said:


> Is Islam a gun?


This is about perception, buddy. 

If you Muslims have no problems perceiving yourselves as 'soldiers' for Allah, why is it absurd for us infidels to perceive you as guns ?

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## Red-Bull

vostok said:


> Normal people die every day throughout the world, and nobody cares. But when someone killed a bunch of faggots, it becomes the number one news.


a jihadist killed a bunch of innocent Americans in America, that is the story here, keep your bigotry aside.


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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> Some ideas are so absurd that they do not deserve even the benefit of being in the hypothetical.


Banning the guns is not an absurd idea...it's being practiced all over the world.


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## bsruzm

gambit said:


> This is about perception, buddy.
> 
> If you Muslims have no problems perceiving yourselves as 'soldiers' for Allah, why is it absurd for us infidels to perceive you as guns ?


Go see doctor huh?


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> Banning the guns is not an absurd idea...it's being practiced all over the world.


It is to US. The right to weapons is in our Constitution. If it is not in yours, that your prerogative. But as long as the right to weapons is philosophically guaranteed to US citizens, then your idea is absurd.



bsruzm said:


> Go see doctor huh?


I make doctors sick.

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## Sparkle229

Irfan Baloch said:


> thanks for your valued input
> I am making the correction to my post now


Happy to comply


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## iPhone

Desert Fox said:


> Unfortunately, judging from past events, this trend is going to continue unless someone will take lead and stand up to the BS of Leftist imposed political correctness and Universal Egalitarianism. That someone might be Trump, though even if he gets elected i doubt four years of a Trump presidency would change 70 years of Leftist infiltration of American society. Maybe we're doomed. I hope not, but lets wait and see.
> 
> *The wolf doesn't abstain from attacking a sheep because it's vulnerable. Only the sheepdog keeps the wolf at bay. And until that sheepdog is allowed to do its job, the sheep will remain vulnerable to the wolf's attacks.*
> 
> Reminds me of this scene from American Sniper
> (notice how his description of the sheep fits the modern day Leftists/Liberals of the West ):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> History is repeating itself. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.


The irony here is that the right wing that you represent and clamor for is just as hateful of the LGBT community as this individual was. The right wing is just as homophobes but are getting political mileage out of this incident now that the culprit turned out to be a muslim. Other wise this could have been as easily one of the right wing nut jobs.


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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> It is to US. The right to weapons is in our Constitution. If it is not in yours, that your prerogative. But as long as the right to weapons is philosophically guaranteed to US citizens, then your idea is absurd.



Which brings us to what i said earlier.



Sinan said:


> - Either create a system where you can detect crazy mofos and not allow them to have weapons.
> - If you can't create such a system, don't give guns to civilians.
> - I*f you say, it's the right of every US citizen to have a gun....then these incidents will continue to happen.*


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> Which brings us to what i said earlier.


Mateen was not motivated to kill by looking at guns. Care to guess what motivated him ?

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## bsruzm

gambit said:


> I make doctors sick.


No doubt.


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## damm1t

It may be a Trump setup.. Or by some guys who benefits from Trump's presidency. II am not a conspiracy guy but in the USA nothing seems as the way it's to me anymore.


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## gambit

bsruzm said:


> No doubt.


I am so mean, I make medicine sick.


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## T-123456

gambit said:


> How do you know they are crazy ?


The guy was a known lunatic,wasnt he?
They reported that authorities knew that he was a mental case,so how can such a guy be allowed to buy guns?


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## Zulkarneyn

We Turks should keep out of American politics. We may become their next target if they get too desperate for a new frontier. They will create millions of refugees with their adventures, this will help spread the extremist radical Wahhabi ideology after the vacuum craeted in these war torn countries. Some retards behind a screen with an iq below 70 in the West who can barely type words swallow the Wahhabi sh!t on the internet after witnessing America's unjust wars and spray his bullets at random targets.

Americans should be better at self-criticism. With this mentality you guys are going towards your own demise. Once you were the country of progress and scientific advancement. You are losing edge due to your adventures world wide orchestrated by retarded politicians bought by oligarchs- in fact America is an indirect oligrarchy today. The Bush administration demonstrated that

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## Windjammer

You can be sure that this tragedy is the topic of discussion amongst all walks of life. 
A few interesting points i like to make out here.
Here in UK, you enter a club with even a knife but the culprit walked in with a handgun and an assault rifle.
There were reportedly around hundred people inside the Club, 50 were killed and 53 wounded, so most of those inside got hit. !!!.... so he must have fired off over a hundred rounds.
He was armed with a hand gun and semi automatic rifle meaning no sustained burst and had to be cocked after every round is fired and then there's also replacing the magazine. 
One wonders how did he managed to do all this without any reaction from the victims. Couldn't some of them jumped him while he was replacing the magazines or even hit him with a beer bottle or something.
I don't mean to jump to any conclusions but isn't it possible that some of those killed or wounded is due to crossfire by law enforcement agencies. !!!

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## Zulkarneyn

T-123456 said:


> The guy was a known lunatic,wasnt he?
> They reported that authorities knew that he was a mental case,so how can such a guy be allowed to buy guns?


Yes he beat his wife, got angry after witnessing some gay men kissing publicly, and constantly talked about being tempted to kill people to his collagues. He was a typical nutcase who found justification via Wahhabi/ISIS ideology online

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## gambit

T-123456 said:


> The guy was a known lunatic,wasnt he?
> They reported that authorities knew that he was a mental case,so how can such a guy be allowed to buy guns?


Assume that Mateen was 'mental'. In order for one of his many Constitutional rights to be taken away, that mental condition must be documented and reported to the government.



Windjammer said:


> Here in UK, you enter a club with even a knife but the culprit walked in with a handgun and an assault rifle.
> 
> I don't mean to jump to any conclusions...


You did jumped to at least one conclusion, that Mateen somehow walked into that nightclub openly carrying his weapons. But if I am going to speculate, he probably concealed his weapons. And please do not express surprise on how to conceal a rifle, a firearm larger than a handgun.

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## T-123456

Zulkarneyn said:


> We Turks should keep out of American politics. *We may become their next target* if they get too desperate for a new frontier. They will create millions of refugees with their adventures, this will help spread the extremist radical Wahhabi ideology after the vacuum craeted in these war torn countries. Some retards behind a screen with an iq below 70 in the West who can barely type words swallow the Wahhabi sh!t on the internet after witnessing America's unjust wars and spray his bullets at random targets.
> 
> Americans should be better at self-criticism. With this mentality you guys are going towards your own demise. Once you were the country of progress and scientific advancement. You are losing edge due to your adventures world wide orchestrated by retarded politicians bought by oligarchs- in fact America is an indirect oligrarchy today. The Bush administration demonstrated that


We are not their target?
What are they doing in Syria fighting with the Kurds against Turkish interests,the so called ''fighting ISIS'' bs is just a show?
Rethink the bold part.



gambit said:


> Assume that Mateen was 'mental'. In order for one of his many Constitutional rights to be taken away, that mental condition must be documented and reported to the government.


It wasnt?

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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> Mateen was not motivated to kill by looking at guns. Care to guess what motivated him ?



You are talking about a single case. I'm talking in general.



Sinan said:


> First of all, I'm not blaming the guns...what i'm saying is, if you allow maniac people to access such weaponry, there will be always incidents like this.
> 
> Be it a Muslim.
> 
> Or, some kid who got angry because he can't get laid.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings
> 
> Or by some people who doesn't have really a motive.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
> 
> I'm saying as long as citizens of US have full access to fire arms, this incidents will continue to happen.


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## gambit

Zulkarneyn said:


> We Turks should keep out of American politics.
> 
> Americans should be better at self-criticism. With this mentality you guys are going towards your own demise. Once you were the country of progress and scientific advancement. You are losing edge due to your adventures world wide orchestrated by retarded politicians bought by oligarchs- in fact America is an indirect oligrarchy today. The Bush administration demonstrated that


First you admonished your fellow Turks to stay out US politics, then you did exactly just that. 



Sinan said:


> You are talking about a single case. I'm talking in general.


I am a gun owner. In general, law abiding US gun owners are not motivated just from looking at our guns.

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## Zulkarneyn

gambit said:


> First you admonished your fellow Turks to stay out US politics, then you did exactly just that.


The intention was sarcasm  the following demonstrated that i think?

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## Spring Onion

gambit said:


> *It is to US. The right to weapons is in our Constitution.* If it is not in yours, that your prerogative. But as long as the right to weapons is philosophically guaranteed to US citizens, then your idea is absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> gambit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mateen was not motivated to kill by looking at guns. Care to guess what motivated him ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...


For killing you need easy access to means of killing aka weapons of any kind.

If Few provisions in the constitution are harming the society then there is always a room to amend. Being Pakistani I do not have right to force you to change your constitution, however, looking at the firing incidents leading to killing many in the US specially in schools, I feel I am right to to air concern at growing gun culture in the USA.


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## gambit

Spring Onion said:


> For killing you need easy access to means aka weapons of any kind.


Fine...So the method -- gun -- may make mass killing easier. But you are making a convenient distraction from the *COMPANION* issue to this tragedy: religion.

Specifically -- *YOURS*.

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## T-123456

Windjammer said:


> One wonders how did he managed to do all this without any reaction from the victims. Couldn't some of them jumped him while he was replacing the magazines or even hit him with a beer bottle or something.


Thats should be expected,at least some of them should have to save others.
Maybe its the culture(gay culture)?


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## gambit

Zulkarneyn said:


> The intention was sarcasm  the following demonstrated that i think?


Good...Then we Americans are free to criticize Turkey in every way.


----------



## iPhone

Desert Fox said:


> It's not the gun laws. Stop blaming the guns for once. Gun's don't get up and start shooting people. It's criminals who do that. This guy and his family had a history of sympathizing with militant extremist organizations but authorities failed to act because they didn't want to prosecute a Muslim who said a couple of homophobic hateful things. *Look at France and Belgium, those countries have very tough gun laws yet terrorists managed to get their hands on full auto assault rifles and explosives.*
> 
> If you think law abiding American citizens are going to surrender their Constitutional right to own firearms just because some Muslim from the Middle East couldn't control his urge to become a terrorist then you're in for a surprise. It's more likely that American Muslims will be viewed with even more suspicion now and slowly stripped of their certain constitutional rights. Don't expect rest of America to suffer just because Muslims can't get their act straight.


Ok, the aurora movie theater shooting, the Sandy hook school shooting, etc were the shooters muslims? Youre acting like every mass shooting in the US has been done by a radicalised muslim. 

Can we at least take a take a look at the gun laws and make sure people with mental illnesses, criminal background and terror supporting backgrounds aren't able to purchase semi auto rifles. What's wrong with thay? I don't understand what's the harm in reviewing some of the gun laws for the public safety.


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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> One wonders how did he managed to do all this without any reaction from the victims. Couldn't some of them jumped him while he was replacing the magazines or even hit him with a beer bottle or something.


Yeah...And am sure you would be able to keep your wits with you in the panic. Blaming the victims...How typical...

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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> I am a gun owner. In general, law abiding US gun owners are not motivated just from looking at our guns.



I'm not talking about the "law abiding US gun owners".....I'm talking about the crazy mofos who sprays their bullets over innocents....


gambit said:


> Mateen was not motivated to kill by looking at guns. Care to guess what motivated him ?


Where i think you are implying that Jihadist causes motivated him...

And i'm saying motivation between attacks are not important in general....If you don't have Jihadists, you have kids who commits mass killings because he can't get laid, or like that guy who killed many people in the cinema while having no clear motive....

You will be never able to suppress the motives behind these killings because perpetrators are "crazy mofos" not law abiding citizens. You will be able to end mass shootings by banning guns.

But if banning guns is an "absurd idea"....than you will have to live with the fact that annually, tens of your innocent citizens will die because of the US gun laws.....and you may say "I don't care, thousands of people dying annually in US for natural or unnatural causes. What difference would it make if we lose just some more." 

Like i said, your country your rules....i never said any different.


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## gambit

iPhone said:


> Ok, the aurora movie theater shooting, the Sandy hook school shooting, etc were the shooters muslims? Youre acting like every mass shooting in the US has been done by a radicalised muslim.
> 
> Can we at least take a take a look at the gun laws and make sure people with mental illnesses, criminal background and terror supporting backgrounds aren't able to purchase semi auto rifles. What's wrong with thay? I don't understand what's the harm in reviewing some of the gun laws for the public safety.


Fine...So let us take all guns away.

Now what is to prevent a radicalized Muslim from making a home brewed IED, like the ones in the Boston Marathon ?

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## Red-Bull

too many people here trying to obfuscate the real issue, it is not gun rights, nor is this about mental health 

it is the ideology of jihad and radical Islam that has penetrated into some sections of American muslims, and to combat it effectively they need to stop being so politically correct, monitor what they are teaching in the madrassas and what the imams are preaching, and start throwing dangerous people into Guantanamo.


----------



## VCheng

Zulkarneyn said:


> Yes he beat his wife, got angry after witnessing some gay men kissing publicly, and constantly talked about being tempted to kill people to his collagues. He was a typical nutcase who found justification via Wahhabi/ISIS ideology online



And yet his father thought he was "normal" when they last met. No wonder the dad claims to have no idea his was radicalized. That is where the roots lie.


----------



## Windjammer

gambit said:


> You did jumped to at least one conclusion, that Mateen somehow walked into that nightclub openly carrying his weapons. But if I am going to speculate, he probably concealed his weapons. And please do not express surprise on how to conceal a rifle, a firearm larger than a handgun.



Sir, perhaps i didn't make myself clear, what i meant was, here in UK, you are searched before entering a nightspot, even ladies handbags are checked. I assumed, in America which was the victim of 9/11. they would be even more conscious.


----------



## iPhone

Windjammer said:


> You can be sure that this tragedy is the topic of discussion amongst all walks of life.
> A few interesting points i like to make out here.
> Here in UK, you enter a club with even a knife but the culprit walked in with a handgun and an assault rifle.
> There were reportedly around hundred people inside the Club, 50 were killed and 53 wounded, so most of those inside got hit. !!!.... so he must have fired off over a hundred rounds.
> He was armed with a hand gun and semi automatic rifle meaning no sustained burst and had to be cocked after every round is fired and then there's also replacing the magazine.
> One wonders how did he managed to do all this without any reaction from the victims. Couldn't some of them jumped him while he was replacing the magazines or even hit him with a beer bottle or something.
> I don't mean to jump to any conclusions but isn't it possible that some of those killed or wounded is due to crossfire by law enforcement agencies. !!!


He didn't just walk into the club with an assault rifle, there was an exchange of fire outside the club with a cop or a security guard whom it seems he overcame and then walked in. Investigation is pending.

I did raise the point that how one person single handedly was able to inflict this much carnage. The clubs are normally packed to maximum capacity so, it wouldn't be too hard looking for targets to shoot. AL though it is a possibility some victims got caught up in the exchange of fire between law enforcement and him.


----------



## gambit

Sinan said:


> I'm not talking about the "law abiding US gun owners".....I'm talking about the crazy mofos who sprays their bullets over innocents....


You admitted that you do not know how to tell if someone is 'crazy' to start. You cannot take a right away from someone until he/she has proven incapable of and/or unwilling to be responsible with that right. If not a gun, then it will be with a car to rob a bank.



Sinan said:


> And i'm saying motivation between attacks are not important in general....


And you are wrong.

I do not think you are that stupid to believe that nonsense. After every crime, even petty pickpocket, the motivation is *ALWAYS* a part of the investigation. Motivation contributes to the severity of the punishment. You are smart enough to know that. Which means the reason you are positing this line of silliness is because you want to minimize the psychological and emotional aspects that your religion matters in this tragedy.

It ain't gonna work.


----------



## Spring Onion

gambit said:


> Fine...So the method -- gun -- may make mass killing easier. But you are making a convenient distraction from the *COMPANION* issue to this tragedy: religion.
> 
> Specifically -- *YOURS*.



How can you say that ? only for a minute even if we consider your allegation how can you explain the following mass shooting in the US what has motivated them?


http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/


*Deadliest U.S. mass shootings, 1984-2016*
By LOS ANGELES TIMES STAFF

JUNE 12, 2016 8:50 A.M.

Here are some of the most notable mass shootings in the U.S. in recent decades.

Tags:
Public place
School
Workplace
Worship place
Read more »


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Tagged as 
Public place



(David Zalubowski / Associated Press)
A gunman entered a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colo., and started firing. Police named Robert Lewis Dear as the suspect in the attacks. Three people were killed — university police Officer Garrett Swasey, Iraq war veteran Ke’Arre M. Stewart and Jennifer Markovsky, who had accompanied friends to the clinic. Each was the parent of two children.

Read more »
Tagged as 
Public place



(Rich Pedroncelli / Associated Press)
Christopher Sean Harper-Mercer shot and killed eight fellow students and a teacher at Umpqua Community College. Authorities described Harper-Mercer, who recently had moved to Oregon from Southern California, as a “hate-filled” individual with anti-religion and white supremacist leanings who had long struggled with mental health issues. He owned 14 weapons, all purchased legally. Harper-Mercer, 26, killled himself after exchanging gunfire with deputies.



Read more »
Tagged as 
School





Photos of four slain Marines are placed at a makeshift memorial at a military recruiting center in Chattanooga (Joe Raedle / Getty Images)
A gunman opened fire on two military centers more than seven miles apart on Thursday, killing four Marines and a Navy sailor.

A man identified by federal authorities as Mohammod Youssuf Abdulazeez, 24, sprayed dozens of bullets at a military recruiting center, then drove to a Navy-Marine training facility and opened fire again before he was killed.

Read more »





Jessica Oliver leaves flowers on a memorial in front of the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. (Getty Images)
Dylann Storm Roof is charged with nine counts of murder and three counts of attempted murder in an attack that killed nine people at a historic black church in Charleston, S.C.

Authorities say Roof, a suspected white supremacist, started firing on a group gathered at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church after first praying with them. He fled authorities before being arrested in North Carolina.

Read more »
Tagged as 
Worship place



People participate in a memorial in People's Park in remembrance of those who were killed and injured by Elliot Rodger in Isla Vista on May 23, 2014. (Genaro Molina / Los Angeles Times)
Elliot Rodger, 22, meticulously planned his deadly attack on the Isla Vista community for more than a year, spending thousands of dollars in order to arm and train himself to kill as many people as possible, according to a report released by the Santa Barbara County Sheriff’s Office. Rodger killed six people before shooting himself.

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Tagged as 
Public place



Media wait outside Fort Hood for an official statement Wednesday. (Deborah Cannon / Austin American-Statesman/MCT)
A gunman at Fort Hood, the scene of a deadly 2009 rampage, kills three people and injures 16 others, according to military officials. The gunman is dead at the scene.

Read more »
Tagged as 
Workplace





Law enforcement personnel respond to an attack on office workers at Washington Navy Yard on September 16, 2013. (MCT)
Aaron Alexis, a Navy contractor and former Navy enlisted man, shoots and kills 12 people and engages police in a running firefight through the sprawling Washington Navy Yard. He is shot and killed by authorities.

Authorities later reveal that he had an extensive Navy disciplinary record that included several unauthorized absences from duty, instances of insubordination and disorderly conduct, one instance of being absent without leave, and several failed inspections. He was still able to get a security clearance and purchase a rifle.



Read more »
Tagged as 
Workplace



Santa Monica Police Sgt. Richard Lewis speaks about the replica weapons and zip guns found during a search of John Zawahri's house. (Allen J. Schaben / Los Angeles Times)
John Zawahri, an unemployed 23-year-old, kills five people in an attack that starts at his father’s home and ends at Santa Monica College, where he is fatally shot by police in the school’s library.

Read more »
Tagged as 
Public place



Responders gather at scene of a mass school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School. (Mario Tama / Getty Images)
A gunman forces his way into Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. and shoots and kills 20 first graders and six adults. The shooter, Adam Lanza, 20, kills himself at the scene. Lanza also killed his mother at the home they shared, prior to his shooting rampage. In emotional remarks from the White House, President Obama wiped away tears. “Our hearts are broken today,” the president said.
Photos | Full coverage

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Tagged as 
School


Read more »
Tagged as 
Public place


Read more »
Tagged as 
Workplace


Victims: Who they were



Read more »
Tagged as 
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An Aurora Police Department detective takes a witness statement following a shooting Friday morning July 20, 2012. (AP)
James Holmes, 24, is taken into custody in the parking lot outside the Century 16 movie theater after a post-midnight attack in Aurora, Colo. Holmes allegedly entered the theater through an exit door about half an hour into the local premiere of “The Dark Knight Rises.” He faces charges of of killing 12 people and injuring 58 others.

Victims: Who they were

Read more »
Tagged as 
Public place



Maria Campomanes and her daughter Maelauni, 9, leave flowers for Oikos University victims outside of the school in Oakland, Calif., Wednesday, April 4, 2012. (Jeff Chiu / AP)
One L. Goh, 43, a former student at a Oikos University, a small Christian college, allegedly opens fire in the middle of a classroom leaving seven people dead and three wounded.

Goh was charged with seven counts of murder with special circumstances and three counts of attempted murder. In a jailhouse interview with a San Francisco TV station shortly after the shooting, Goh said he was “deeply sorry” for his actions.

Read more »
Tagged as 
School



Mourners stop by to pay their respects at the door of Salon Meritage in Seal Beach on the morning after eight people were shot to death and a ninth wounded by suspected gunman Scott Dekraai October 13, 2011. (Mark Boster/Los Angeles Times)
Scott Dekraai, 41, apparently enraged over a custody dispute, allegedly walks into a crowded Seal Beach hair salon where his former wife works and opens fire. Eight people are killed, including a man sitting in a truck outside the salon. Another person is critically wounded. Dekraai has pleaded not guilty in the case.

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Tagged as 
Workplace


President Barack Obama and first lady Michelle Obama attend memorial service for the victims of Saturday's shootings, at McKale Center on the University of Arizona campus Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2011, in Tucson, Ariz. (J. Scott Applewhite / AP)
Jared Lee Loughner, 22, allegedly shoots Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in the head during a meet-and-greet with constituents at a Tucson supermarket. Six people are killed and 11 others wounded. Loughner is identified by witnesses as the gunman who fired at close range with semiautomatic pistol before being tackled.


Workplace



Sgt. First Class Noe Figueroa waits to get back on base outside Fort Hood's Clear Creek gate in Killeen, Texas on Thursday, Nov. 5, 2009, after a mass shooting on the base. (Jay Janner / AP)
Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, allegedly shoots and kills 13 people and injures 32 others in a rampage at Ft. Hood, where he is based. Authorities allege that Hasan was exchanging emails with Muslim extremists including American-born radical Anwar Awlaki.

Read more »
Tagged as 
Workplace





Mourners pray with relatives of shooting victims Lan Ho and Long Huynh outside the American Civic Association on Sunday, April 5, 2009, in Binghamton, New York (Matt Rourke/AP)
Jiverly Voong, 41, shoots and kills 13 people and seriously wounds four others before apparently committing suicide at the American Civic Assn., an immigration services center, in Binghamton, N.Y.

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Tagged as 
Public place


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Tagged as 
School


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Tagged as 
Public place



Image taken from a video aired by NBC News shows Virginia Tech gunman Seung-hui Cho (Associated Press Photo/NBC)
Seung-hui Cho, a 23-year-old Virginia Tech senior, opens fire on campus, killing 32 people in a dorm and an academic building in attacks more than two hours apart. Cho takes his life after the second incident.





Doug Williams in an undated photo (Lauderdale County Sheriff's Office)
Doug Williams, 48, a production assemblyman for 19 years at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., goes on a rampage at the defense plant, fatally shooting five and wounding nine before taking his own life with a shotgun.

R




Charles Andrew Williams in court during his arraignment in San Diego County Superior Court in March 2001(Associated Press)
Santana High student Charles Andrew Williams, 15, fatally shoots two classmates and wounds 13 others on the campus. He is apprehended by police in the school bathroom, where his attack began. Williams is later sentenced to 50 years to life.

Read more »
Tagged as 
School





Michael McDermott in Middlesex Superior Court in Cambridge, Mass. (John Blanding / Associated Press Photo)
Michael McDermott, a 42-year-old software tester shoots and kills seven co-workers at the Internet consulting firm where he is employed. McDermott, who is arrested at the offices of Edgewater Technology Inc., apparently was enraged because his salary was about to be garnished to satisfy tax claims by the Internal Revenue Service. He uses three weapons in his attack.

Read more »
Tagged as 
Workplace



(George F. Lee / AFP Photo)
Byran Uyesugi, a Xerox copier repairman, shoots and kills seven coworkers with a Glock 9-mm semiautomatic handgun as they gather for a meeting to discuss his light workload. Uyesugi is a former high school sharpshooter who legally owns 11 handguns, five rifles and two shotguns. He is later found guilty of seven counts of murder and one of attempted murder for shooting at a man who escaped. He is serving a life sentence without possibility of parole.

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Tagged as 
Workplace


Read more »
Tagged as 
Worship place



Mark O. Barton (Associated Press)
Mark Orrin Barton, a 44-year-old chemist-turned-day trader, strolls into two investment offices and opens fire on fellow investors and office workers. The shootings at All-Tech Investment and Momentum Securities Inc., across the street from each other, leave nine people dead and 12 wounded. Barton eludes a manhunt for six hours before killing himself.




(Associated Press)
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, students at Columbine High, open fire at the school, killing a dozen students and a teacher and causing injury to two dozen others before taking their own lives.

Read more »
Tagged as 
School


Read more »
Tagged as 
School


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Tagged as 
Public place



(AP Photo/Marin Independent Journal)
Gian Luigi Ferri, 55, kills eight people in an office building in San Francisco’s financial district. His rampage begins in the 34th-floor offices of Pettit &Martin, an international law firm, and ends in a stairwell between the 29th and 30th floors where he encounters police and shoots himself.





Police officers gather outside Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Rick McFarland / Associated Press)
George Jo Hennard, 35, crashes his pickup truck into a Luby’s cafeteria crowded with lunchtime patrons and begins firing indiscriminately with a semiautomatic pistol, killing 22 people. Hennard is later found dead of a gunshot wound in a restaurant restroom.


JULY 18, 1984
*21 killed, 19 wounded: San Ysidro, Calif.*
James Oliver Huberty, a 41-year-old out-of-work security guard, kills 21 employees and customers at a McDonald’s restaurant. Huberty is fatally shot by a police sniper perched on the roof of a nearby post office.


----------



## gambit

Red-Bull said:


> too many people here trying to obfuscate the real issue, it is not gun rights, nor is this about mental health
> 
> it is the ideology of jihad and radical Islam that has penetrated into some sections of American muslims, and to combat it effectively they need to stop being so politically correct, monitor what they are teaching in the madrassas and what the imams are preaching, and start throwing dangerous people into Guantanamo.


They invited this guy to speak.

Bush and his fellow neocons were motivated by oil and money to invade Iraq. But the idea that Islam plays a factor in this tragedy...??? No...

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## Windjammer

gambit said:


> Yeah...And am sure you would be able to keep your wits with you in the panic. Blaming the victims...How typical...


I'm not blaming the victims, they were the ones facing a life and death situation, it's just a human instinct, we heard of stories where passengers overpower hijackers.....no offence to the victims.


----------



## gambit

Spring Onion said:


> How can you say that ? only for a minute even if we consider your allegation how can you explain the following mass shooting in the US what has motivated them?


You want me to post long reams of Islam inspired atrocities in your part of the world ?

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## T-123456

gambit said:


> Yeah...And am sure you would be able to keep your wits with you in the panic. Blaming the victims...How typical...


Come on man,in every such situation,there is at least one who can keep his cool and act in some way.
Out of 300 not even one?


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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> I'm not blaming the victims, they were the ones facing a life and death situation, it's just a human instinct, we heard of stories where passengers overpower hijackers.....no offence to the victims.


Yes, you are obliquely blaming the victims. Just like the rest who made guns the main issue.

As for your feeble defense about overpowering the hijackers, that is a recent development. What the hey...Not only are these homosexuals, they are infidels as well. So of course, they deserve to die. You are too chickenshit to admit it.


----------



## Zibago

Desert Fox said:


> It's not the gun laws. Stop blaming the guns for once. Gun's don't get up and start shooting people. It's criminals who do that. This guy and his family had a history of sympathizing with militant extremist organizations but authorities failed to act because they didn't want to prosecute a Muslim who said a couple of homophobic hateful things. *Look at France and Belgium, those countries have very tough gun laws yet terrorists managed to get their hands on full auto assault rifles and explosives.*
> 
> If you think law abiding American citizens are going to surrender their Constitutional right to own firearms just because some Muslim from the Middle East couldn't control his urge to become a terrorist then you're in for a surprise. It's more likely that American Muslims will be viewed with even more suspicion now and slowly stripped of their certain constitutional rights. Don't expect rest of America to suffer just because Muslims can't get their act straight.


Both France and Belgium have a lower murser rate and have less mass shootings than US


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## gambit

T-123456 said:


> Come on man,in every such situation,there is at least one who can keep his cool and act in some way.


Yeah...And am sure you are speaking from yrs of extensive personal experience in law enforcement, hostage situations, and SWAT. In video games, I presume ?

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## iPhone

gambit said:


> Fine...So let us take all guns away.
> 
> Now what is to prevent a radicalized Muslim from making a home brewed IED, like the ones in the Boston Marathon ?



Look, you're mind *today* is set on just one thing, radical islam. So, whatever I say or anyone says you'll come back with a, what if or a what about. This doesn't solve anything.

No one's saying to take all guns away, I'm not in favor of that. But if you can't see that there is a problem with how easy some one can purchase an assault rifle, someone like this individual who had been interviewed by the FBI three times, some one with mental disorder or a vast criminal background, then there are more mass shootings to come.

And next time it might not be a Muslim guy to pin the blame on but another white lone wolf, mentally ill type. It's not stopping.


----------



## Gibbs

T-123456 said:


> Come on man,in every such situation,there is at least one who can keep his cool and act in some way.
> Out of 300 not even one?



Easier to envisage safely sitting in a office chair or at home mate.. Not in a real life and death situation.. It's a night club full of people, Most people wouldn't have even known where the bullets were coming from

This was not a movie or a video game

As for the ridiculous gun laws in the US.. People who say it's they're constitutional right is as backward as a jihadist that thought it's his divine right to massacre homosexuals


----------



## Spring Onion

gambit said:


> You want me to post long reams of Islam inspired atrocities in your part of the world ?



The topic of discussion here in this thread is not my part of the world the topic at hands here is the shooting in the US and motivation behind such mass killing in the US. Surely the Islam, terrorism, Jehad has killed very very few inside the US whereas gun culture has led to more than 90% of this mass killing in the USA.






You can post about Islam and our part of the world in some other thread I have no issue in discussing that without losing my temper unlike you who is running away from listening to facts


----------



## gambit

iPhone said:


> No one's saying to take all guns away, I'm not in favor of that. But if you can't see that there is a problem with how easy some one can purchase an assault rifle,...


Mateen did not have an assault rifle. Have you done even basic research on this ?

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## Zibago

Sinan said:


> I'm not talking about the "law abiding US gun owners".....I'm talking about the crazy mofos who sprays their bullets over innocents....
> 
> Where i think you are implying that Jihadist causes motivated him...
> 
> And i'm saying motivation between attacks are not important in general....If you don't have Jihadists, you have kids who commits mass killings because he can't get laid, or like that guy who killed many people in the cinema while having no clear motive....
> 
> You will be never able to suppress the motives behind these killings because perpetrators are "crazy mofos" not law abiding citizens. You will be able to end mass shootings by banning guns.
> 
> But if banning guns is an "absurd idea"....than you will have to live with the fact that annually, tens of your innocent citizens will die because of the US gun laws.....and you may say "I don't care, thousands of people dying annually in US for natural or unnatural causes. What difference would it make if we lose just some more."
> 
> Like i said, your country your rules....i never said any different.


Guns shoukd not be banned but there should be restrictions on auto and semi auto rifles cant risk lives of innocent in post 9-11 world


----------



## Spring Onion

*Guns in the US: The statistics behind the violence*

5 January 2016

From the sectionUS & Canada




Image copyrightREUTERS
Image captionThe US has approximately 300 million guns - nearly one for every member of the population


In his first weekly address of 2016, Barack Obama vowed to take executive action to increase background checks on gun buyers.

His announcement followed another bloody year in the US in which thousands were killed and tens of thousands wounded by gunfire.

Here's a look at some of the statistics behind the violence.

*The statistics*
*Mass shootings:* There were 372 mass shootings in the US in 2015, killing 475 people and wounding 1,870, according to the Mass Shooting Tracker, which catalogues such incidents. A mass shooting is defined as a single shooting incident which kills or injures four or more people, including the assailant.

Source: Mass Shooting Tracker

*School shootings: *There were 64 school shootings in 2015, according to a dedicated campaign group set up in the wake of the Sandy Hook elementary school massacre in Connecticut in 2012. Those figures include occasions when a gun was fired but no-one was hurt.

Source: Everytown for Gun SafetyResearch

*All shootings: *Some 13,286 people were killed in the US by firearms in 2015, according to the Gun Violence Archive, and 26,819 people were injured [those figures exclude suicide]. Those figures are likely to rise by several hundred, once incidents in the final week of the year are counted.

Source: Gun Violence Archive

*How the US compares: *The number of gun murders per capita in the US in 2012 - the most recent year for comparable statistics - was nearly 30 times that in the UK, at 2.9 per 100,000 compared with just 0.1.

Of all the murders in the US in 2012, 60% were by firearm compared with 31% in Canada, 18.2% in Australia, and just 10% in the UK.

Source: UNODC.




o


*The home front: *So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. According to research by Politifact, there were about 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the War of Independence to Iraq.

Source: Politifact.

*Total number of guns: *No official figure exists but there are thought to be about 300 million in the US, held by about a third of the population. That is nearly enough guns for every man, woman and child in the country.

*The NRA:* The right to own guns is regarded by many as enshrined in the Second Amendment to the US Constitution, and fiercely defended by lobby groups such as the National Rifle Association, which boasted that its membership surged to around five million in the aftermath of the Sandy Hook school shooting.

*Gun violence and terrorism: *The US spends more than a trillion dollars per year defending itself against terrorism, which kills a tiny fraction of the number of people killed by ordinary gun crime.

According to figures from the US Department of Justice and the Council on Foreign Affairs, 11,385 people died on average annually in firearm incidents in the US between 2001 and 2011.

In the same period, an average of 517 people were killed annually in terror-related incidents. Removing 2001, when 9/11 occurred, from the calculation produces an annual average of just 31.






http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604


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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> You admitted that you do not know how to tell if someone is 'crazy' to start.


Yeah, i don't know how to tell someone apart of being crazy or not.....and i don't know if physiologist, security forces, etc... will be able to do so ? Maybe they can, maybe they don't, i don't know.




gambit said:


> You cannot take a right away from someone until he/she has proven incapable of and/or unwilling to be responsible with that right. If not a gun, then it will be with a car to rob a bank.


What basically you are saying is, "even if they don't have guns, they can find other methods to kill people"....you don't know that, you and i can't know if this incidents will cease to exist if guns are banned. 

But i think both of us can agree, in such incidents casualty number won't be high as this one. We can be sure on that.




gambit said:


> And you are wrong.
> 
> I do not think you are that stupid to believe that nonsense. After every crime, even petty pickpocket, the motivation is *ALWAYS* a part of the investigation. Motivation contributes to the severity of the punishment. You are smart enough to know that. Which means the reason you are positing this line of silliness is because you want to minimize the psychological and emotional aspects that your religion matters in this tragedy.
> 
> It ain't gonna work.



Actually no. I don't care if that man is a muslim or not. I'm not responsible for any other guy's actions.... be it sharing the same religion, race or country.

Let's allow me to give you two examples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting

^^^ What does it matters about these incident's motivation ? They had access to heavy weaponry and killed innocent people, like in this incident.


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## Zibago

Gibbs said:


> Easier to envisage safely sitting in a office chair or at home mate.. Not in a real life and death situation.. It's a night club full of people, Most people wouldn't have even known where the bullets were coming from
> 
> This was not a movie or a video game


I heard he was ex security guard thats why he had easy access is it true?


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## Indian009

Most likely a hate crime. RIP.

The way news is being shown Muslim in general will suffer from this Morons act. If they tag him with ISIS it will lead to more problems for Muslim population in US.

Trump has a trump card now, hope he dont use it


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## iPhone

gambit said:


> Mateen did not have an assault rifle. Have you done even basic research on this ?


He had an ar-15 semi-auto. The same gun thats been used in multiple mass shootings across america. But Excuse me if I don't understand fully what is truly considered an assault rifle.

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## gambit

Sinan said:


> What basically you are saying is, "even if they don't have guns, they can find other methods to kill people"....*you don't know that*, you and i can't know if this incidents will cease to exist if guns are banned.


Of course we know that.

If the motivation is powerful enough, a weapon more powerful than a handgun will be created. Why do you think IEDs became famous in Afghanistan and Iraq ? The resistance could not fight against tanks and jet fighters, but they were motivated nonetheless. They had to find alternatives and they did. The Boston Marathon is an example of the civilian side of that.



Sinan said:


> ^^^ What does it matters about these incident's motivation ? They had access to heavy weaponry and killed innocent people, like in this incident.


If motivation does not matter, then you cannot argue about 'crazy' people getting their hands on guns. Being mentally ill -- in the clinical sense -- is a motivator for committing violence. That is why in every incident you cited, psychologists were called in to testify, for the government and for the media.

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## CENTCOM

Our thoughts are with the victims’ friends and families during this extremely difficult time. Words cannot describe the barbaric and heinous nature of the crime. It is hard to imagine the pain and suffering of the loved ones. We sincerely hope and pray that they find the strength to remain strong. We are praying for the quick and full recovery of those who are injured. Condolences have poured in from across the world and everyone stands united against such acts of terror.

We repeat what President Obama said on the shootings: "We know enough to say this was an act of terror and an act of hate. This is a sobering reminder that attacks on any American, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation is an attack on all of us and on the fundamental values of equality and dignity that define us as a country, and no act of hate or terror will ever change who we are or the values that make us Americans."

You can read the full text by clicking on the link below:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/06/12/president-obama-tragic-shooting-orlando

Ali Khan
Digital Engagement Team, USCENTCOM


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## gambit

iPhone said:


> He had an ar-15 semi-auto. The same gun thats been used in multiple mass shootings across america. But Excuse me if I don't understand fully what is truly considered an assault rifle.


An 'assault' rifle is a firearm that can fire multiple rounds with *ONE* trigger pull.

In the US, it is legal to own a fully automatic rifle, aka an 'assault' rifle, but the requirements are so strict that most gun owners, like myself, do not want the trouble. One of those requirements is that the government have the right to enter your home at its convenience, meaning any time of any day, and you have to agree to that if you want to own a fully automatic firearm.

If Mateen had two handguns, or even just one, it is perfectly feasible for him to kill just as many as he would a semi-auto AR-15. And yes, I do have an AR-15. A complete Noveske, considered among the upper half of the AR-15 world.


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## Bratva

gambit said:


> Mateen was not motivated to kill by looking at guns. Care to guess what motivated him ?



what motivated 2012 and 2007 and countless high school shootings ?


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## Gibbs

Zibago said:


> I heard he was ex security guard thats why he had easy access is it true?



As it is US gun laws are so lax any psycho can get his hands on a assault rifle, so i dont think his previous occupation has a bearing on it


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## gambit

Bratva said:


> what motivated 2012 and 2007 and countless high school shootings ?


Being emotionally unstable, for starter.



Gibbs said:


> As it is US gun laws are so lax any psycho can get his hands on a assault rifle, so i dont think his previous occupation has a bearing on it


See post 386 about that 'assault' rifle nonsense.


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## Bratva

gambit said:


> Being emotionally unstable, for starter.
> 
> 
> See post 386 about that 'assault' rifle nonsense.





gambit said:


> Fine...So the method -- gun -- may make mass killing easier. But you are making a convenient distraction from the *COMPANION* issue to this tragedy: religion.
> 
> Specifically -- *YOURS*.



did someone bring their religion into it ? despite current case indicating clearly he was an emotionally disturbed person ?


----------



## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> Of course we know that.
> 
> If the motivation is powerful enough, a weapon more powerful than a handgun will be created. Why do you think IEDs became famous in Afghanistan and Iraq ? The resistance could not fight against tanks and jet fighters, but they were motivated nonetheless. They had to find alternatives and they did. The Boston Marathon is an example of the civilian side of that.



Yet, they didn't create weapons...they only bought weapons like buying candies. Will they be able to create explosives, home made weapons which will pack the punch of a assault rifle ? I dunno, but i don't think, so.

What i know is, in Turkey we have gun laws, mofos can't buy military grade weapons, and i have not seen an incident where some alone crazy lunatic guy would create IEDs to kill innocents...it's the same case in most of the Europe afaik.



gambit said:


> If motivation does not matter, then you cannot argue about 'crazy' people getting their hands on guns. Being mentally ill -- in the clinical sense -- is a motivator for committing violence. That is why in every incident you cited, psychologists were called in to testify, for the government and for the media.


Yet, pointing out the motivation of the attack solved anything ? Does it contribute to any kind of solution ?


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## gambit

Bratva said:


> did someone bring their religion into it ? despite current case indicating clearly he was an emotionally disturbed person ?


It is going to be tough to dismiss the fact that Mateen called the police and told them that he committed himself to ISIS. Last I checked, ISIS was not the defunct electronic payment app.

Being emotionally disturbed does not mean being mentally ill in the clinical sense. At least not at this time. If you need to take medications in order to live as normal a life as possible, that is being clinically mentally ill. Otherwise, whatever crime you commit, ideological, political, and even plain old criminal, motivations will be considered.

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## Gibbs

gambit said:


> See post 386 about that 'assault' rifle nonsense.



Seen that comment countless times by the NRA types every time a massacre happens in the states.. Arguing about the technicalities of what a assault rifle is in a way trying to clear the guilt.. Does it matter how many rounds it shoots to kill innocent men, Women and Children ?

Like i said i see no diference from those that say it's a constitutional right to have guns to those jihadists that say it's their divine right to kill all infidels.. Both make use of archaic out dated laws/religious views to legitimize their claims


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## Bratva

gambit said:


> It is going to be tough to dismiss the fact that Mateen called the police and told them that he committed himself to ISIS. Last I checked, ISIS was not the defunct electronic payment app.
> 
> Being emotionally disturbed does not mean being mentally ill in the clinical sense. At least not at this time. If you need to take medications in order to live as normal a life as possible, that is being clinically mentally ill. Otherwise, whatever crime you commit, ideological, political, and even plain old criminal, motivations will be considered.



Isnt it a classic case of seeking attention by emotionally disturbed person? Attention seeker checked, emotionally unstable checked. Wasnt 2007 and 2012 high school shooters were with the same traits? girls rejected them, they craved attention of people of their surrounding, extremely depressed and emotionally disturbed ?

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## gambit

Sinan said:


> Yet, they didn't create weapons...they only bought weapons like buying candies. Will they be able to create explosives, home made weapons which will pack the punch of a assault rifle ? I dunno, but i don't think, so.


In the Boston Marathon bombing, the home made IEDs came from rice cookers and they were powerful enough to either severed limbs or do enough damage to warrant amputations later in the hospitals.



Sinan said:


> What i know is, in Turkey we have gun laws, mofos can't buy military grade weapons, and i have not seen an incident where some alone crazy lunatic guy would create IEDs to kill innocents...it's the same case in most of the Europe afaik.


This is in *YOUR* country, pal...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Ankara_bombings

Are you that desperate to regard US in so negative a light that you are willing to be that intellectually dishonest ? I guess so.



Sinan said:


> Yet, pointing out the motivation of the attack solved anything ? Does it contribute to any kind of solution ?


Sure it does. It contribute to preventative measures.



Gibbs said:


> Seen that comment countless times by the NRI types every time a massacre happens in the states.. Arguing about the technicalities of what a assault rifle is in a way trying to clear the guilt.. Does it matter how many rounds it shoots to kill innocent men, Women and Children ?


Guilt from what ?

The laws says this and that technicalities on what make an 'assault' weapon or not. The majority of gun owners complied. So if someone is going to mischaracterize what they own, of course we are going to speak up on those technicalities.



Gibbs said:


> Like i said i see no diference from those that say it's a constitutional right to have guns to those jihadists that say it's their divine right to kill all infidels.. Both make use of archaic out dated laws/religious views to legitimize their claims


Considering how many more Muslims are killed by Muslims using a variety of weapons, you are SOL in your criticism of US, pal.



Bratva said:


> Isnt it a classic case of seeking attention by emotionally disturbed person? Attention seeker checked, emotionally unstable checked. Wasnt 2007 and 2012 high school shooters were with the same traits? girls rejected them, they craved attention of people of their surrounding, extremely depressed and emotionally disturbed ?


The difference then is that no religion were invoked.

You cannot dismiss powerful influences like race, nationalism, and/or religion.

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## Stag112

RIP victims.

I support gun control, but that has nothing, let me repeat NOTHING to do with religious terrorism. If not a legal gun, they will find illegal guns, preasure cookers, fertilizer, dynamite, cars, planes, boats, knives, nails, ball bearings - just about anything.

To mix these two topics here is dishonest.

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## gambit

Stag112 said:


> RIP victims.
> 
> I support gun control, but that has nothing, let me repeat *NOTHING to do with religious terrorism.* If not a legal gun, they will find illegal guns, preasure cookers, fertilizer, dynamite, cars, planes, boats, knives, nails, ball bearings - just about anything.
> 
> To mix these two topics here is dishonest.


We do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum.

Everything we do *MUST* have a reason. We eat because of hunger. We drink because of thirst. We kill because of self defense, offense, or just plain old greed. If I have to use household goods to create weapons, there has to be a reason why I would ignore social conventions about items specifically designed to be weapons and make my own weapons. If I drill thru walls to get to a bank vault, the motivation that is money must be powerful enough for me to disregard thick concrete, alarms, and even armed guards.


----------



## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> In the Boston Marathon bombing, the home made IEDs came from rice cookers and they were powerful enough to either severed limbs or do enough damage to warrant amputations later in the hospitals.
> 
> 
> This is in *YOUR* country, pal...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Ankara_bombings
> 
> Are you that desperate to regard US in so negative a light that you are willing to be that intellectually dishonest ? I guess so.
> 
> 
> Sure it does. It contribute to preventative measures.
> 
> 
> Guilt from what ?
> 
> The laws says this and that technicalities on what make an 'assault' weapon or not. The majority of gun owners complied. So if someone is going to mischaracterize what they own, of course we are going to speak up on those technicalities.
> 
> 
> Considering how many more Muslims are killed by Muslims using a variety of weapons, you are SOL in your criticism of US, pal.
> 
> 
> The difference then is that no religion were invoked.
> 
> You cannot dismiss powerful influences like race, nationalism, and/or religion.



This is the reason for me saying "Let's agree to disagree "in the first place....When i see people, i can easily understand that if we can come into terms in the end or not.

I can counter your post, and in return you will counter mine...., it is going to last for pages and we will still be at the different terms. There is no need for that, let's "agree to disagree" and end the discussion.


----------



## gambit

Sinan said:


> This is the reason for me saying "Let's agree to disagree "in the first place....When i see people, i can easily understand that if we can come into terms in the end or not.
> 
> I can counter your post, and in return you will counter mine...., it is going to last for pages and we will still be at the different terms. There is no need for that, let's "agree to disagree" and end the discussion.


I showed you that there are mass violence in your own country when you tried to insinuate none to make US looks the worse.

But you are correct. The US is a hellhole. Tell everyone to stay away from US. You can start with your fellow Turks.

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## Stag112

gambit said:


> We do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum.
> 
> Everything we do *MUST* have a reason. We eat because of hunger. We drink because of thirst. We kill because of self defense, offense, or just plain old greed. If I have to use household goods to create weapons, there has to be a reason why I would ignore social conventions about items specifically designed to be weapons and make my own weapons. If I drill thru walls to get to a bank vault, the motivation that is money must be powerful enough for me to disregard thick concrete, alarms, and even armed guards.



May be i did not phrase that well. I meant gun control has nothing to do with religious terrorism. I did not mean this attack had nothing to do with religious terrorism. It has everything to do with religious terrorism.


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## Piper

US will never give in to fear, bigotry, hatred as that is exactly what the low lives intend.

- Guns are not to be blamed here. Terrorists are.
- LGBTQ are not to be blamed here. Terrorists are.
- Islam is not be blamed here. Terrorists are.

And these terrorists and their sponsors are going to feel the white hot rage of USA no matter what hole they are hiding in.


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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> I showed you that there are mass violence in your own country when you tried to insinuate none to make US looks the worse.
> 
> But you are correct. The US is a hellhole. Tell everyone to stay away from US. You can start with your fellow Turks.


I never said that or implied that in anyway.

You are equating a terror act which has been planned and executed by a terrorist organization to a mass shooting done by a crazy US citizen whom acquired it's weapons from the local gun-shop.

It's like equating the 9/11 to kid who shot 7 people as he was jealous of the good looking guys....

Like i said, i can counter everyone of your posts. But this discussion is going no where. 

You are a law-abiding US citizen who doesn't want to give up his right to buy, store, use weapons. But at the same time, you don't wanna feel guilty that your countrymen are dying because of you and the people like you still cling on that right. So, you keep creating excuses, try to prove that gun laws has nothing to do with mass shootings etc... to have a clear conscious.

I'm Turkish and my country is going through the hell at the moment. It's the least of my concerns what happens in US. I just wanted to give my opinion and wander of. Lengthy discussion was never my intent.


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## Windjammer

gambit said:


> Yes, you are obliquely blaming the victims. Just like the rest who made guns the main issue.
> 
> As for your feeble defense about overpowering the hijackers, that is a recent development. What the hey...Not only are these homosexuals, they are infidels as well. So of course, they deserve to die. You are too chickenshit to admit it.



Must say , didn't expect that coming from you @gambit 
Those innocent victims did no harm to me and sitting thousands miles away, they didn't effect or offend my ways or means....besides i have more so called infidel as friends than my own kind.....must say very disappointed with your attitude.


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## Irfan Baloch

gambit said:


> Mateen was not motivated to kill by looking at guns. Care to guess what motivated him ?



virgins motivated him.
not kidding.. a failed suicide bomber in Yemen who's belt blew up prematurely was torn apart from the torso and while on the road and still conscious, he looked at the people around him saying .. where are my virgins... wait you are not virgins. how bad is it? my feet really hurt.. (you can look up the video on the youtube). 


current weapons legislation makes it easy to acquire weapons, I get it. but atrocities have happened in Europe as well with much tougher gun control (France for example, rest are mostly suicide bombers). 

it was inevitable that gun haters will pounce on this opportunity and use the tragedy to enforce gun control.
A terrorist or a criminal wont be deterred from committing crime just because the weapons are banned. 
this guy would have made some home made bomb or bought weapons from black market to commit this atrocity.


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## bloo

jerry_tan said:


> This guy has no criminal record and good citizen , crazy , creepy isn't it.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742025805350506496


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## Irfan Baloch

Zulkarneyn said:


> We Turks should keep out of American politics. We may become their next target if they get too desperate for a new frontier. They will create millions of refugees with their adventures


their current experiment in Middle east has already done that.


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## gambit

The AR-15 is an 'assault' weapon.

The M-16 is the true assault weapon. The AR-15 is the civilian, hence semi-auto, version of the true assault weapon.


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## Irfan Baloch

gambit said:


> It is to US. The right to weapons is in our Constitution. If it is not in yours, that your prerogative. But as long as the right to weapons is philosophically guaranteed to US citizens, then your idea is absurd.
> 
> 
> I make doctors sick.





bsruzm said:


> Go see doctor huh?



now now

chill out.


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> You are a law-abiding US citizen who doesn't want to give up his right to buy, store, use weapons. But at the same time, you don't wanna feel guilty that your countrymen are dying because of you and the people like you still cling on that right. So, you keep creating excuses, try to prove that gun laws has nothing to do with mass shootings etc... to have a clear conscious.


Me guilty for what ?

Here is what you said earlier...



> Actually no. I don't care if that man is a muslim or not. *I'm not responsible for any other guy's actions*.... be it sharing the same religion, race or country.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/florida-...d-and-53-injured.434579/page-26#ixzz4BTE3njNU


You insisted that you are not responsible for someone else's actions, therefore you should bear no guilt at all for whatever common things you may shares with him.

And yet, disregarding your own reasoning, you expect me to feel guilty for holding on to my Constitutional right, thereby sharing responsibility for whatever atrocity guns may have been involved in.

This is why the Americans on this forum do not take seriously most of the people here. You cannot even keep track of your own thinking, let alone a debate.

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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> Me guilty for what ?
> 
> Here is what you said earlier...
> 
> You insisted that you are not responsible for someone else's actions, therefore you should bear no guilt at all for whatever common things you may shares with him.
> 
> And yet, disregarding your own reasoning, you expect me to feel guilty for holding on to my Constitutional right, thereby sharing responsibility for whatever atrocity guns may have been involved in.



As a muslim, do i have any power to prevent that attack from happening ? No.

As a US citizen who believes in righteousness of the current the gun laws...do you have any power (even a tiny bit) to change the gun laws ? Yes, by voting you do.

That's the difference between your case and mine.



gambit said:


> This is why the Americans on this forum do not take seriously most of the people here. You cannot even keep track of your own thinking, let alone a debate.



No one is forcing you to post, get into discussions with the people here, right ?


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## Trisonics

Social media is abuzz with a FaceBook account where the bomber identifies himself as Pakistani. I suggest we wait until more information becomes available. This account was created in 2015 and is currently taken down. *This could be a conspiracy but who knows. Mods may delete my post if it's in appropriate for this forum. I got this on watzapp.*







https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4nr519/an_omar_mateen_from_orlando_fl_had_an_empty/


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## Viper0011.

Sinan said:


> I don't think this incident is related with ISIS....once in a while in US, some crazy mofo sprays his machine gun over innocent souls...
> 
> As i see, this is the price you have to pay, for giving any kinds of weapons to US citizens without any constraint. Out of millions of people there will be some mofos like this and the previous ones.
> 
> This is not the first and will be the last incident with the gun laws you have.



So at the end of the day, its the US's fault? How about we didn't allow his father in....? Would this guy still be able to do this? HELL NO!!

People from Muslim countries have this amazing ability to never take even 1% of responsibility on their part. They are quick to blame everyone else but them. To me, this guy's father had posts on facebook praising his "Pashtun Talibans" ho are terrorists!! He even referred to his Pashtun Taliban movement as "they will liberate Pakistan". So he's siding with the terrorists. You think his Son isn't hearing, watching and getting influenced from this culture of supporting extremism???? Like I've said before, go bullshiit someone who doesn't have a working brain.

This is the crap he's learned in his household. Otherwise typical modern household children don't even know what Taliban are or what does the term even mean. I have a couple of Cardiologist friends from Pakistan. They are educated and modern. Their children are typical American kids, they like Cars, Bikes, Girls and everything else a normal young-man wants or enjoys. This is because their dads have raised them with tolerance to others. This Orlando situation right here, is a result of effed up teachings starting from home and spreading to a point of no return, sadly resulting in many human lives. 

If he was mentally unstable, how come his dad didn't know that he used to beat his wife when the documents and everything else was going through the legal system?? How come the dad didn't try to interfere and ask him to help him with taking him to a Psychiatrist???? He didn't do ANY of it because he thought his behavior was "OK" and "Man-Like" like it is in countries where he came from, where women are oppressed by their husbands, etc. 

Don't blame the third world mentality being at play here to American gun laws. We've had them for centuries and we've never witnessed this level of violence. Just in one year, we had a California shooter and then this effing idiot killed so many in Orlando. Blame the reasons and the upbringing he got out of his household where the Dad praises Talibans. Don't blame the American system who provided sanctuary to these fools and gave them everything towards a successful and normal life. Nothing they could imagine in their shiit hole Afghanistan where they came from!!


----------



## Red-Bull

Trisonics said:


> Social media is abuzz with a FaceBook account where the bomber identifies himself as Pakistani. I suggest we wait until more information becomes available. This account was created in 2015 and is currently taken down. *This could be a conspiracy but who knows. Mods may delete my post if it's in appropriate for this forum. I got this on watzapp.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4nr519/an_omar_mateen_from_orlando_fl_had_an_empty/


hmm, interesting


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> As a muslim, do i have any power to prevent that attack from happening ? No.
> 
> As a US citizen who believes in righteousness of the current the gun laws...do you have any power (even a tiny bit) to change the gun laws ? Yes, by voting you do.
> 
> That's the difference between your case and mine.


You still do not see your own flawed thinking.

If thru voting I can change the gun laws, then by thru speaking out and taking direct actions against Islamic extremism, you can change certain aspects of your religion. See how that goes ?



Sinan said:


> No one is forcing you to post, get into discussions with the people here, right ?


Yes, no one forces me to deal with flawed and even stupid thoughts. But because I am outnumbered by stupidity, I should at least try to reduce the effectiveness of some stupid arguments. Somewhat a Sysiphusian task.

I said earlier that we do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum and that even biological acts must have reasons and justifications.

Why do we vomit ? The act of vomiting is the body's basic response to what it deems to be poisonous, whether the motivation is truly biological or psychological. Some might find eating insects to be so disgusting that their bodies considers the idea itself to be bodily poisonous, whereas some find nothing disgusting or even unusual about it.

What this mean is that the hatred for homosexual has no biological basis. That hatred is a *LEARNED* behavior and if it is learned, there has to be an intellectual reason/justification for it. We do not learn 2 + 2 = 4 for nothing. If there is an intellectual basis for hatred of homosexuals, then what is the source ? I do not look at my guns and somehow those objects via osmosis give me an urge to kill homosexuals, Democrats, Republicans, rednecks, communists, or Muslims. An argument could be made that if the method for mass killing is not available, then maybe I would kill a couple of homosexuals with a kitchen knife instead of 50 with a rifle. But that argument does not address the question of where does that desire come from ?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Anubis

gambit said:


> How would you know someone is a 'maniac' to start ? What do you want to do, perform psyche test on the entire population ? You call Mateen a 'maniac' after the fact. After he killed. If you want to be called a 'Dr', there are things you must prove to current Drs. that you have earned the privilege to be in their ranks. Same idea with being a soldier, an athlete, a plumber, or an actor. *But how do you expect us to know if someone has within himself 'extremist' religious views with intent on committing violence against those who do not shares his beliefs ?*


Monitoring them...monitor the mosques..madrasas and the internet.


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## ranjeet

How some far right religious leaders (across the spectrum) are justifying/celebrating over this sad incident is disgusting. I mean it's arite you guys don't agree with their choice but celebrating their death is really pathetic.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Sparkle229

ranjeet said:


> How some far right religious leaders (across the spectrum) are justifying/celebrating over this sad incident is disgusting. I mean it's arite you guys don't agree with their choice but celebrating their death is really pathetic.


Who is celebrating I am neither sad nor happy


----------



## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> You still do not see your own flawed thinking.
> 
> If thru voting I can change the gun laws, then by thru speaking out and taking direct actions against Islamic extremism, you can change certain aspects of your religion. See how that goes ?



That's why i said (even i tiny bit).....for likening it. I'm not talking in the favor of extremist, for starters you may not support the gun laws.

Of course, nobody can expect you to change the system by yourself.



gambit said:


> Yes, no one forces me to deal with flawed and even stupid thoughts. But because I am outnumbered by stupidity, I should at least try to reduce the effectiveness of some stupid arguments. Somewhat a Sysiphusian task.


Lol, i think the exact same way....but generally i don't complain about it.

I said earlier that we do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum and that even biological acts must have reasons and justifications.



gambit said:


> Why do we vomit ? The act of vomiting is the body's basic response to what it deems to be poisonous, whether the motivation is truly biological or psychological. Some might find eating insects to be so disgusting that their bodies considers the idea itself to be bodily poisonous, whereas some find nothing disgusting or even unusual about it.
> 
> What this mean is that the hatred for homosexual has no biological basis. That hatred is a *LEARNED* behavior and if it is learned, there has to be an intellectual reason/justification for it. We do not learn 2 + 2 = 4 for nothing. If there is an intellectual basis for hatred of homosexuals, then what is the source ? I do not look at my guns and somehow those objects via osmosis give me an urge to kill homosexuals, Democrats, Republicans, rednecks, communists, or Muslims. An argument could be made that if the method for mass killing is not available, then maybe I would kill a couple of homosexuals with a kitchen knife instead of 50 with a rifle. But that argument does not address the question of where does that desire come from ?



It's logical to go to root cause the deal with the problems. Not in these cases as you are dealing with illogical people. I gave different examples from the incidents of the past. All have different motives, that you will be able to fix. Yeah, take the method for mass killing from them. I don't think, you will be able to kill 50 person with a kitchen knife....maybe, you won't even consider because of the ineffectiveness of the act.



Viper0011. said:


> So at the end of the day, its the US's fault? How about we didn't allow his father in....? Would this guy still be able to do this? HELL NO!!


If you had killed Hitler's father, world shouldn't have gone through an awful period.



Viper0011. said:


> People from Muslim countries have this amazing ability to never take even 1% of responsibility on their part. They are quick to blame everyone else but them. To me, this guy's father had posts on facebook praising his "Pashtun Talibans" ho are terrorists!! He even referred to his Pashtun Taliban movement as "they will liberate Pakistan". So he's siding with the terrorists. You think his Son isn't hearing, watching and getting influenced from this culture of supporting extremism???? Like I've said before, go bullshiit someone who doesn't have a working brain.


I don't understand what you are talking about.... did i somewhat covered for this killer ? Tried to justify his act ?

If not, care to explain what are you talking about.



Viper0011. said:


> This is the crap he's learned in his household. Otherwise typical modern household children don't even know what Taliban are or what does the term even mean. I have a couple of Cardiologist friends from Pakistan. They are educated and modern. Their children are typical American kids, they like Cars, Bikes, Girls and everything else a normal young-man wants or enjoys. This is because their dads have raised them with tolerance to others. This Orlando situation right here, is a result of effed up teachings starting from home and spreading to a point of no return, sadly resulting in many human lives.
> 
> If he was mentally unstable, how come his dad didn't know that he used to beat his wife when the documents and everything else was going through the legal system?? How come the dad didn't try to interfere and ask him to help him with taking him to a Psychiatrist???? He didn't do ANY of it because he thought his behavior was "OK" and "Man-Like" like it is in countries where he came from, where women are oppressed by their husbands, etc.
> 
> Don't blame the third world mentality being at play here to American gun laws. We've had them for centuries and we've never witnessed this level of violence. Just in one year, we had a California shooter and then this effing idiot killed so many in Orlando. Blame the reasons and the upbringing he got out of his household where the Dad praises Talibans. Don't blame the American system who provided sanctuary to these fools and gave them everything towards a successful and normal life. Nothing they could imagine in their shiit hole Afghanistan where they came from!!



Like i said before. There had been other incidents before when crazy mofos killed innocent people as they liked, because they had assess to heavy weaponry. 

Let's say that US banned Islam, deported all of the Muslims, all of the Jihadists within US and there will be no other incidents related to jihad related extremism. 

Can you say that mass shooting incidents will cease to exist in US ? I say otherwise.

If you can follow the conversation here, we are talking about the US gun laws and their impact on the mass killings. Not about on the terror acts.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Appears to be isolated case of local Angry citizen

Interesting to note that the allegation of his allegiance was media created

Sometimes people have personal factor which a normal person cannot understand


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## Mrc

Trisonics said:


> Social media is abuzz with a FaceBook account where the bomber identifies himself as Pakistani. I suggest we wait until more information becomes available. This account was created in 2015 and is currently taken down. *This could be a conspiracy but who knows. Mods may delete my post if it's in appropriate for this forum. I got this on watzapp.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4nr519/an_omar_mateen_from_orlando_fl_had_an_empty/





I don't get any thing when I search omar mateen from my account.....

may be indian media going into another fantacy hyperdrive?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well regardless of the orientation or nationality or background of that Person who committed a crime its US internal matter.

Any sane person would not take a assault weapon to any location

US generally has a high ratio of Gun Violence it is a well known Phenomenon


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## Trisonics

Mrc said:


> I don't get any thing when I search omar mateen from my account.....
> 
> may be indian media going into another fantacy hyperdrive?



Let me make it very clear again. This was not posted in the Indian Media or in any other media. It is claimed that this page existed but was taken down later. Please read my original post. 
Several twitter and facebook posts have posted links to the page that was taken down. Like here:
https://www.facebook.com/sebastian.loewenherz/posts/1068761049859698

This could be all false but we don't know. Don't read between the lines.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Mugwop

vostok said:


> Normal people die every day throughout the world, and nobody cares. But when someone killed a bunch of faggots, it becomes the number one news.


The media in america is very bigoted and biased, If a crime is committed by a black guy he's either a thief or a murderer and his color is mentioned ofcourse, Hispanic guy must be a immigrant or a drug smuggler. Muslim guy commits a crime he's a terrorist his religion is mentioned. White dudes shoot up schools and they are labeled mentally unstable and greeted with sympathy. *Yellow journalism* at it's finest. 

People kill people guns dont!
I don't know why these democrats want to ban guns in america.



Trisonics said:


> Let me make it very clear again. This was not posted in the Indian Media or in any other media. It is claimed that this page existed but was taken down later. Please read my original post.
> Several twitter and facebook posts have posted links to the page that was taken down. Like here:
> https://www.facebook.com/sebastian.loewenherz/posts/1068761049859698
> 
> This could be all false but we don't know. Don't read between the lines.


I bet you want it to be real don't you?


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## Boss Dragun

*indonesian govt condemns Orlando night club shooting incident*

http://m.antaranews.com/en/news/105163/indonesian-govt-condemns-orlando-night-club-shooting-incident

Jakarta (ANTARA News) - The Indonesian government condemned the shooting incident that occurred in a night club in Orlando, Florida, the United States, on early Sunday (June 12), which resulted in 50 deaths and injuries to 53 others.

"Indonesia has condemned the Orlando shooting incident. We expressed our deep sympathy to the families of the victims, the government, and the people of the United States," a spokesman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Arrmanatha Nasir stated in his tweet from the Ministrys Twitter account on Monday.

Director of Protection of Citizens and Legal Entities of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Lalu Muhammad Iqbal confirmed that no Indonesian citizens were victims of the mass shooting incident in Orlando.

"The Indonesian Consulate General in Houston is currently seeking further information. However, so far, there were no reports of any Indonesian citizens who become victims of the attack," remarked Iqbal.

Based on data from the Consulate General in Houston, the total number of Indonesian citizens in Florida has now reached 2,522, comprising 1,263 men and 1,259 women.

"The Consulate General will continue to monitor the on-field developments in coordination with the local authorities and Indonesian community networks," Iqbal pointed out.

The Florida police have categorized the mass shooting incident that occurred at a gay club in Orlando as an act of terrorism.

The police said the shooting was allegedly carried out by a man named Omar Mir Seddique Mateen (29), a US citizen of Afghan descent.

Mateens former wife, Sitora Yusufiy, said that he was indeed suffering from mental disorders and had a rough character.

The Orlando incident was the worst in the history of mass shootings in the United States, which President Barack Obama has described as an act of terror and hatred.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## livingdead

SvenSvensonov said:


> People go to clubs to have a good time, have a few drinks and forget about their ills and angsts... not to worry about being killed by a lunatic.
> 
> When you're busy dancing and listening to music, who'd notice another person?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have all the info and wont speculate on why no one outside the club didn't notice (or did, but was killed as he entered), but people inside were too busy having fun to notice.
> 
> Take it from a clubbing veteran (my wife and Norwegian lady friends like to take me clubbing),
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you're looking for someone with a gun, you're not going to be concerned about one. You're just going to go about your night of fun.


did the bouncers try to stop him from entering? I dont think you can enter any club in Uk with a knife.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well domestic crime is regrettable act


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## Desert Fox

Zibago said:


> Both France and Belgium have a lower murser rate and have less mass shootings than US


Didn't change the fact that Terrorists got hands on a bomb, let alone a fully automatic assault rifle.

*BTW, what are you doing to ban guns in Pakistan?*



Sinan said:


> Banning the guns is not an absurd idea...it's being practiced all over the world.


And it's not working is it? No country allows its citizens to possess bombs, yet Belgium terrorists had those. 

Criminals will always get their hands on weapons of every and any type. If you disarm law abiding citizens of their ability to defend themselves then you are exposing them to criminal exploitation. Law enforcement only responds to crimes after the fact, in most cases.

A terrorist can use anything to kill people, whether its a plane (9/11) or a vehicle to maim innocent people in crowded city streets. 

Also, more people in America are killed by DUI related vehicle accidents than by guns. Therefore should we also ban cars and alcohol to the public??



vostok said:


> Normal people die every day throughout the world, and nobody cares.


That's the way the world is today unfortunately. The loss of any life is terrible.


----------



## v9s

Trisonics said:


> Let me make it very clear again. This was not posted in the Indian Media or in any other media. It is claimed that this page existed but was taken down later. Please read my original post.
> Several twitter and facebook posts have posted links to the page that was taken down. Like here:
> https://www.facebook.com/sebastian.loewenherz/posts/1068761049859698
> 
> This could be all false but we don't know. Don't read between the lines.


Of course it's false. If he was a Pakistani, the media would be blowing that fact up. It's a stupid conspiracy probably made up by an Indian.


----------



## Desert Fox

iPhone said:


> The irony here is that the right wing that you represent and clamor for is just as hateful of the LGBT community as this individual was. The right wing is just as homophobes but are getting political mileage out of this incident now that the culprit turned out to be a muslim. Other wise this could have been as easily one of the right wing nut jobs.


Really? Did the "right wing" shoot up a gay bar on Christmas like this guy did in Ramadan?



iPhone said:


> Ok, the aurora movie theater shooting, the Sandy hook school shooting, etc were the shooters muslims? Youre acting like every mass shooting in the US has been done by a radicalised muslim.



Those were all lone wolf attacks. This guy on the other hand was connected to ISIS and massacred people in the name of Islam.



iPhone said:


> Can we at least take a take a look at the gun laws and make sure people with mental illnesses, criminal background and terror supporting backgrounds aren't able to purchase semi auto rifles. What's wrong with thay? I don't understand what's the harm in reviewing some of the gun laws for the public safety.


Interesting fact is that the Gay bar this guy shot up was a *Gun-Free-Zone*, part of the "ban guns" initiative. The body guard at the entrance to the club was a off-duty police officer who was not allowed to carry his firearm to his job at the club.

Ban guns for the law abiding civilians, meanwhile criminals will always find a way to get weapons. This strategy didn't work out for the French it seems.



Windjammer said:


> One wonders how did he managed to do all this without any reaction from the victims. Couldn't some of them jumped him while he was replacing the magazines or even hit him with a beer bottle or something.
> I don't mean to jump to any conclusions but isn't it possible that some of those killed or wounded is due to crossfire by law enforcement agencies. !!!


Keep in mind it was a nigh club & bar where there was loud music on blast, some people were drunk and also keep in mind places like these tend to be hot beds for drug consumption as well. Many of the witnesses thought the gun shots were a part of the beat from the music, until they saw people bleeding or even dead.



Spring Onion said:


> How can you say that ? only for a minute even if we consider your allegation how can you explain the following mass shooting in the US what has motivated them?
> 
> 
> http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/
> 
> 
> *Deadliest U.S. mass shootings, 1984-2016*
> By LOS ANGELES TIMES STAFF
> 
> JUNE 12, 2016 8:50 A.M.
> 
> Here are some of the most notable mass shootings in the U.S. in recent decades.
> 
> Tags:
> Public place
> School
> Workplace
> Worship place
> Read more »
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Public place
> 
> 
> 
> (David Zalubowski / Associated Press)
> A gunman entered a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colo., and started firing. Police named Robert Lewis Dear as the suspect in the attacks. Three people were killed — university police Officer Garrett Swasey, Iraq war veteran Ke’Arre M. Stewart and Jennifer Markovsky, who had accompanied friends to the clinic. Each was the parent of two children.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Public place
> 
> 
> 
> (Rich Pedroncelli / Associated Press)
> Christopher Sean Harper-Mercer shot and killed eight fellow students and a teacher at Umpqua Community College. Authorities described Harper-Mercer, who recently had moved to Oregon from Southern California, as a “hate-filled” individual with anti-religion and white supremacist leanings who had long struggled with mental health issues. He owned 14 weapons, all purchased legally. Harper-Mercer, 26, killled himself after exchanging gunfire with deputies.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> School
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photos of four slain Marines are placed at a makeshift memorial at a military recruiting center in Chattanooga (Joe Raedle / Getty Images)
> A gunman opened fire on two military centers more than seven miles apart on Thursday, killing four Marines and a Navy sailor.
> 
> A man identified by federal authorities as Mohammod Youssuf Abdulazeez, 24, sprayed dozens of bullets at a military recruiting center, then drove to a Navy-Marine training facility and opened fire again before he was killed.
> 
> Read more »
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jessica Oliver leaves flowers on a memorial in front of the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. (Getty Images)
> Dylann Storm Roof is charged with nine counts of murder and three counts of attempted murder in an attack that killed nine people at a historic black church in Charleston, S.C.
> 
> Authorities say Roof, a suspected white supremacist, started firing on a group gathered at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church after first praying with them. He fled authorities before being arrested in North Carolina.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Worship place
> 
> 
> 
> People participate in a memorial in People's Park in remembrance of those who were killed and injured by Elliot Rodger in Isla Vista on May 23, 2014. (Genaro Molina / Los Angeles Times)
> Elliot Rodger, 22, meticulously planned his deadly attack on the Isla Vista community for more than a year, spending thousands of dollars in order to arm and train himself to kill as many people as possible, according to a report released by the Santa Barbara County Sheriff’s Office. Rodger killed six people before shooting himself.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Public place
> 
> 
> 
> Media wait outside Fort Hood for an official statement Wednesday. (Deborah Cannon / Austin American-Statesman/MCT)
> A gunman at Fort Hood, the scene of a deadly 2009 rampage, kills three people and injures 16 others, according to military officials. The gunman is dead at the scene.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Workplace
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Law enforcement personnel respond to an attack on office workers at Washington Navy Yard on September 16, 2013. (MCT)
> Aaron Alexis, a Navy contractor and former Navy enlisted man, shoots and kills 12 people and engages police in a running firefight through the sprawling Washington Navy Yard. He is shot and killed by authorities.
> 
> Authorities later reveal that he had an extensive Navy disciplinary record that included several unauthorized absences from duty, instances of insubordination and disorderly conduct, one instance of being absent without leave, and several failed inspections. He was still able to get a security clearance and purchase a rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Workplace
> 
> 
> 
> Santa Monica Police Sgt. Richard Lewis speaks about the replica weapons and zip guns found during a search of John Zawahri's house. (Allen J. Schaben / Los Angeles Times)
> John Zawahri, an unemployed 23-year-old, kills five people in an attack that starts at his father’s home and ends at Santa Monica College, where he is fatally shot by police in the school’s library.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Public place
> 
> 
> 
> Responders gather at scene of a mass school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School. (Mario Tama / Getty Images)
> A gunman forces his way into Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. and shoots and kills 20 first graders and six adults. The shooter, Adam Lanza, 20, kills himself at the scene. Lanza also killed his mother at the home they shared, prior to his shooting rampage. In emotional remarks from the White House, President Obama wiped away tears. “Our hearts are broken today,” the president said.
> Photos | Full coverage
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> School
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Public place
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Workplace
> 
> 
> Victims: Who they were
> 
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Worship place
> 
> 
> 
> An Aurora Police Department detective takes a witness statement following a shooting Friday morning July 20, 2012. (AP)
> James Holmes, 24, is taken into custody in the parking lot outside the Century 16 movie theater after a post-midnight attack in Aurora, Colo. Holmes allegedly entered the theater through an exit door about half an hour into the local premiere of “The Dark Knight Rises.” He faces charges of of killing 12 people and injuring 58 others.
> 
> Victims: Who they were
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Public place
> 
> 
> 
> Maria Campomanes and her daughter Maelauni, 9, leave flowers for Oikos University victims outside of the school in Oakland, Calif., Wednesday, April 4, 2012. (Jeff Chiu / AP)
> One L. Goh, 43, a former student at a Oikos University, a small Christian college, allegedly opens fire in the middle of a classroom leaving seven people dead and three wounded.
> 
> Goh was charged with seven counts of murder with special circumstances and three counts of attempted murder. In a jailhouse interview with a San Francisco TV station shortly after the shooting, Goh said he was “deeply sorry” for his actions.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> School
> 
> 
> 
> Mourners stop by to pay their respects at the door of Salon Meritage in Seal Beach on the morning after eight people were shot to death and a ninth wounded by suspected gunman Scott Dekraai October 13, 2011. (Mark Boster/Los Angeles Times)
> Scott Dekraai, 41, apparently enraged over a custody dispute, allegedly walks into a crowded Seal Beach hair salon where his former wife works and opens fire. Eight people are killed, including a man sitting in a truck outside the salon. Another person is critically wounded. Dekraai has pleaded not guilty in the case.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Workplace
> 
> 
> President Barack Obama and first lady Michelle Obama attend memorial service for the victims of Saturday's shootings, at McKale Center on the University of Arizona campus Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2011, in Tucson, Ariz. (J. Scott Applewhite / AP)
> Jared Lee Loughner, 22, allegedly shoots Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in the head during a meet-and-greet with constituents at a Tucson supermarket. Six people are killed and 11 others wounded. Loughner is identified by witnesses as the gunman who fired at close range with semiautomatic pistol before being tackled.
> 
> 
> Workplace
> 
> 
> 
> Sgt. First Class Noe Figueroa waits to get back on base outside Fort Hood's Clear Creek gate in Killeen, Texas on Thursday, Nov. 5, 2009, after a mass shooting on the base. (Jay Janner / AP)
> Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, allegedly shoots and kills 13 people and injures 32 others in a rampage at Ft. Hood, where he is based. Authorities allege that Hasan was exchanging emails with Muslim extremists including American-born radical Anwar Awlaki.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Workplace
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mourners pray with relatives of shooting victims Lan Ho and Long Huynh outside the American Civic Association on Sunday, April 5, 2009, in Binghamton, New York (Matt Rourke/AP)
> Jiverly Voong, 41, shoots and kills 13 people and seriously wounds four others before apparently committing suicide at the American Civic Assn., an immigration services center, in Binghamton, N.Y.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Public place
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> School
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Public place
> 
> 
> 
> Image taken from a video aired by NBC News shows Virginia Tech gunman Seung-hui Cho (Associated Press Photo/NBC)
> Seung-hui Cho, a 23-year-old Virginia Tech senior, opens fire on campus, killing 32 people in a dorm and an academic building in attacks more than two hours apart. Cho takes his life after the second incident.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doug Williams in an undated photo (Lauderdale County Sheriff's Office)
> Doug Williams, 48, a production assemblyman for 19 years at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., goes on a rampage at the defense plant, fatally shooting five and wounding nine before taking his own life with a shotgun.
> 
> R
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charles Andrew Williams in court during his arraignment in San Diego County Superior Court in March 2001(Associated Press)
> Santana High student Charles Andrew Williams, 15, fatally shoots two classmates and wounds 13 others on the campus. He is apprehended by police in the school bathroom, where his attack began. Williams is later sentenced to 50 years to life.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> School
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael McDermott in Middlesex Superior Court in Cambridge, Mass. (John Blanding / Associated Press Photo)
> Michael McDermott, a 42-year-old software tester shoots and kills seven co-workers at the Internet consulting firm where he is employed. McDermott, who is arrested at the offices of Edgewater Technology Inc., apparently was enraged because his salary was about to be garnished to satisfy tax claims by the Internal Revenue Service. He uses three weapons in his attack.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Workplace
> 
> 
> 
> (George F. Lee / AFP Photo)
> Byran Uyesugi, a Xerox copier repairman, shoots and kills seven coworkers with a Glock 9-mm semiautomatic handgun as they gather for a meeting to discuss his light workload. Uyesugi is a former high school sharpshooter who legally owns 11 handguns, five rifles and two shotguns. He is later found guilty of seven counts of murder and one of attempted murder for shooting at a man who escaped. He is serving a life sentence without possibility of parole.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Workplace
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Worship place
> 
> 
> 
> Mark O. Barton (Associated Press)
> Mark Orrin Barton, a 44-year-old chemist-turned-day trader, strolls into two investment offices and opens fire on fellow investors and office workers. The shootings at All-Tech Investment and Momentum Securities Inc., across the street from each other, leave nine people dead and 12 wounded. Barton eludes a manhunt for six hours before killing himself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Associated Press)
> Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, students at Columbine High, open fire at the school, killing a dozen students and a teacher and causing injury to two dozen others before taking their own lives.
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> School
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> School
> 
> 
> Read more »
> Tagged as
> Public place
> 
> 
> 
> (AP Photo/Marin Independent Journal)
> Gian Luigi Ferri, 55, kills eight people in an office building in San Francisco’s financial district. His rampage begins in the 34th-floor offices of Pettit &Martin, an international law firm, and ends in a stairwell between the 29th and 30th floors where he encounters police and shoots himself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police officers gather outside Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Rick McFarland / Associated Press)
> George Jo Hennard, 35, crashes his pickup truck into a Luby’s cafeteria crowded with lunchtime patrons and begins firing indiscriminately with a semiautomatic pistol, killing 22 people. Hennard is later found dead of a gunshot wound in a restaurant restroom.
> 
> 
> JULY 18, 1984
> *21 killed, 19 wounded: San Ysidro, Calif.*
> James Oliver Huberty, a 41-year-old out-of-work security guard, kills 21 employees and customers at a McDonald’s restaurant. Huberty is fatally shot by a police sniper perched on the roof of a nearby post office.


This doesn't prove anything, really.

Shall we then say that Pakistan should ban bombs for all its civilians because of the tens of thousands killed by suicide bombers and terrorists? *Oh, wait, bombs were never allowed for anyone to carry in Pakistan to begin with. See what i'm getting at??
*
Criminals will always find a way to mass murder. 9/11 ring a bell?* What about the recent paris shootings (charlie hebdo and the school shooting), that too despite Frances' gun restrictions.

*
Even if we were to consider your proposal of banning guns for civilians completely, there are still the thousands of illegal firearms that are smuggled into America through the Mexican border (despite the tight security there) and end up in the hands of criminal gangs all over the country, even in states where guns are very difficult to procure for the best of law abiding civilians like California and New York. *Therefore the criminals will always have access to guns, while the average law abiding civilian will be disarmed.
*



Spring Onion said:


> The topic of discussion here in this thread is not my part of the world the topic at hands here is the shooting in the US and motivation behind such mass killing in the US. Surely the Islam, terrorism, Jehad has killed very very few inside the US whereas gun culture has led to more than 90% of this mass killing in the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can post about Islam and our part of the world in some other thread I have no issue in discussing that without losing my temper unlike you who is running away from listening to facts


Most of the guns used in crimes within the US are illegal, smuggled from the Mexican border. So you want us to ban legal guns for law abiding citizens meanwhile a criminal will always have access to illegal guns from Mexico?

It's easy to pass judgements from afar when you know nothing about America and it's ground reality. *If an individual is intent on harming someone he/she will acquire a weapon by any means, whether its legal or illegal. *

A law abiding citizen on the other hand will lose his only avenue of acquiring firearms legally for self protection, thus exposing them to harm from the criminals.

BTW, if you want to compare statistics of what kills more Americans annually, its a combination of alcohol and cars. We should ban those before we ban anything, going by the logic of people here.



Stag112 said:


> *If not a legal gun, they will find illegal guns, preasure cookers, fertilizer, dynamite, cars, planes, boats, knives, nails, ball bearings - just about anything.*


Thank you. This is a fact these self proclaimed gun law experts here seem to conveniently miss.


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## pakdefender

Trisonics said:


> Let me make it very clear again. This was not posted in the Indian Media or in any other media. It is claimed that this page existed but was taken down later. Please read my original post.
> Several twitter and facebook posts have posted links to the page that was taken down. Like here:
> https://www.facebook.com/sebastian.loewenherz/posts/1068761049859698
> 
> This could be all false but we don't know. Don't read between the lines.



lol @ "could be false"

The killer turned out to be son of pro-indian afghan , whose pet topic was the durrand line, we know who promotes that very well 

Killer's dad busy in indian-sponsored activities , showing baluchistan to be part of Afghanistan





Remember indian , we have got your monkey , kulbhushan jadhav , raw agent arrested from balochistan






He is singing like a canary in our custody

How quickly the rat bridge went into action to associate him with Pakistan via a fake facebook page up was quite astounding

Makkari tum logon say sekhni chahiyay


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## IceCold

Trisonics said:


> Social media is abuzz with a FaceBook account where the bomber identifies himself as Pakistani. I suggest we wait until more information becomes available. This account was created in 2015 and is currently taken down. *This could be a conspiracy but who knows. Mods may delete my post if it's in appropriate for this forum. I got this on watzapp.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/4nr519/an_omar_mateen_from_orlando_fl_had_an_empty/



He is a US citizen with parents in Afghanistan, nothing to do with Pakistan. The guy was already on the watch list by the FBI since 2013. Pledged his allegiance to ISIS. You Indians never cease to amaze. I mean how low can your kind actually go to bad mouth Pakistan is beyond me. 

Just to clear i know you are only sharing it but have a brain of your own. This is an Indian fart or mental masturbation and nothing more.


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## dingyibvs

If criminals always find a way to get guns, how come China's numerous terrorist attacks seldom involve firearms? Gun ban works, if you can enforce it. Gun ban in Orlando doesn't work when you can buy guns in Ft. Pierce and bring them to Orlando freely. Gun ban in France doesn't work when you can obtain guns elsewhere in the Schengen zone and bring them to Paris freely. Gun ban in Pakistan wouldn't work because the Pakistani government can neither enforce the ban in its own country nor stop the flow of arms from Afghanistan.

Gun ban is a necessary condition to stop stop such violence, but it's not a sufficient condition. The government needs to both be able to stop the proliferation within the country as well as to stop the flow from without. Otherwise, as others have said, it'll just result in innocent citizens not having guns while the criminals have all that they need.


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## Chinese-Dragon

dingyibvs said:


> If criminals always find a way to get guns, how come China's numerous terrorist attacks seldom involve firearms? Gun ban works, if you can enforce it. Gun ban in Orlando doesn't work when you can buy guns in Ft. Pierce and bring them to Orlando freely. Gun ban in France doesn't work when you can obtain guns elsewhere in the Schengen zone and bring them to Paris freely. Gun ban in Pakistan wouldn't work because the Pakistani government can neither enforce the ban in its own country nor stop the flow of arms from Afghanistan.
> 
> Gun ban is a necessary condition to stop stop such violence, but it's not a sufficient condition. The government needs to both be able to stop the proliferation within the country as well as to stop the flow from without. Otherwise, as others have said, it'll just result in innocent citizens not having guns while the criminals have all that they need.



Way too late for a gun ban in America now, the chance of that happening is about 0%.

But they could probably avoid selling guns to people who've been on the FBI watch list for ISIS related concerns for over 5 years.

These shootings always seem to happen with legally purchased firearms. Since they don't intend to live through the attack, they have no incentive to get black market guns, since they don't care if the guns are traced.


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## patientlion212

it's a deja vu, once again the media will start a mass "rainbow" campaign, and Anti Muslims campaigns .. , this is getting boring, and still no action will be taken concerning gun control . I predict more attacks in the future ....


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> That's why i said (even i tiny bit).....for likening it. I'm not talking in the favor of extremist, for starters you may not support the gun laws.
> 
> Of course, nobody can expect you to change the system by yourself.


You avoided the double standards you gave, so I will remind the readers.

According to *YOU*...Since I share common beliefs with my fellow Americans, in particular the right to weapons, therefore any tragedy that involves guns, I must share some measure of guilt for that tragedy.

What is 'guilt':

- the fact of having committed a specified or implied offense or crime.
- make (someone) feel guilty, especially in order to induce them to do something.

I cannot feel 'guilty' about an act unless I have accepted responsibility for that act, be it %1 or %100 responsibility.

And yet, for *YOU* and your religion, *YOU* refused to put yourself under the same standard.



> Actually no. I don't care if that man is a muslim or not. I'm not responsible for any other guy's actions.... be it sharing the same religion, race or country.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/florida-...d-and-53-injured.434579/page-26#ixzz4BVAD4gqd


You and Omar Mateen (Orlando Pulse nightclub) have a common bond: The religion of Islam.

I and Tim McVeigh (Oklahoma bombing) have a common bond: 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution.

And yet, *YOU* claimed the right to refuse guilt by association but expect me to feel guilty for believing in my Constitutional right.



Sinan said:


> It's logical to go to root cause the deal with the problems. Not in these cases as you are dealing with illogical people. I gave different examples from the incidents of the past. All have different motives, that you will be able to fix. Yeah, take the method for mass killing from them. I don't think, *you will be able to kill 50 person with a kitchen knife*....maybe, you won't even consider because of the ineffectiveness of the act.


Even if Mateen wounded only ten people with a kitchen knife, the root cause is still important, and it is a convenient distraction that firearms were involved so that gullible people will refocus their attention on guns, the American insistent on our Constitution, and the American society in general.

You simply do not like the fact that your religion in as much influential to Omar Mateen as the US Constitution is influential to American thoughts. You have no problems attacking our root cause -- the US Constitution, but insists that Islam cannot be the root cause, or at least a major psychological influence, in this tragedy.



Sinan said:


> Let's say that US banned Islam, deported all of the Muslims, all of the Jihadists within US and there will be no other incidents related to jihad related extremism.
> 
> Can you say that mass shooting incidents will cease to exist in US ? I say otherwise.


No, mass shooting will not miraculously cease to exist, but at least we will not have to deal with one psychological influence.



Sinan said:


> If you can follow the conversation here, we are talking about the US gun laws and their impact on the mass killings. Not about on the terror acts.


He follows the conversation just fine.

*YOU* would prefers that the conversation stay away from psychology and religion and focus on the tools of the trade and not the mentality of the tradesman.

I and a few friends recently took some Chinese friends to go shooting in the hills on public lands. In one afternoon, each of the Chinese, including the women, were able to empty 12 rounds in my Steyr M40 in less than 10 seconds. At 50 meters, I can center mass all 12 rounds at one round per sec. Each of our Chinese friends have never shot before, and in one afternoon lesson, each can center mass all 12 rounds at 25 meters and less distance. They did it with calibers from 9mm to .45 cal. We joked that when they return to China, they will have more firearms experience than %99 of the Chinese population. In a crowd and when the people in this crowd is in close proximity to each other, like a nightclub/bar setting, an amateur can do the same damage with a pistol as he could with a semi-auto like an AR-15.

In 'mass shootings', the shooters chose that environment because...

- The targets are always unaware that they have become targets, hence they have not mentally conditioned themselves to respond to any threat in any way.

- Exits are few and with crowd mentality, the people will continue to present ideal shooting condition as they flee towards those exits.

A weapon like an AR-15 is more for the psychological effect on the shooter than it is for efficacy, meaning how many people can the shooter hit. An AR-15 make him feel more 'badass' than a pistol could, and because of the scary appearance of the weapon, the media and gullible people like you inevitably focus on the scary tool and 'gun laws' and less on everything else, including psychological influences like religion.

At the Sandy Hook school shooting, from a strict technical perspective, could Adam Lanza have killed those 20 children with just a pistol ? Absolutely. But because he used a much more scary looking weapon, naturally most people, especially those who do not understand firearms, turned their attention to that scary looking gun. If Adam Lanza can be proficient enough to use an AR-15, he can be proficient enough with a pistol.

Here is what you do not understand and the anti-gun commentators deceptively omitted: There is nothing about a semi-automatic rifle that would make a person learn to shoot faster than with a pistol.

In fact, it is the opposite. If you want to be a good shooter, the progression should be, from simplest to most difficult: revolver - pistol - rifle. That was how I learned to shoot and how the vast majority of law abiding US gun owners learned how to shoot. Despite what Hollywood portrays, a rifle, even a semi like the AR-15, requires double the physical efforts than a pistol to operate. It is easier to shoot accurately single handed with a pistol than with an AR-15.

So why do gunmen like Adam Lanza and Omar Mateen in their mass shootings used the AR-15 ? Purely for their own psychological needs and not out of technical needs. Psychology and environment are more of an impact in mass shooting than gun laws.


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## Indus Pakistan

gambit said:


> You and Omar Mateen (Orlando Pulse nightclub) have a common bond: The religion of Islam.
> 
> I and Tim McVeigh (Oklahoma bombing) have a common bond: 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution.
> 
> And yet, *YOU* claimed the right to refuse guilt by association but expect me to feel guilty for believing in my Constitutional right.


Not taking any sides in this discussion (although I support 100% gun control. No civilian should have a gun unless specfic need arising out of job they are doing) but your comparison is akin to comparing chalk with cheese.

Islam is very loose definition of a very multiverse belief system with ever increasing number of interpretations. On the other hand 2nd Amendment is a very tight legal precept and definition with specific effect. In other words those who believe in 2nd Amendment share more in common than those who call themselves Muslim.

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## Vassnti

gambit said:


> Even if Mateen wounded only ten people with a kitchen knife, the root cause is still important, and it is a convenient distraction that firearms were involved so that gullible people will refocus their attention on guns, the American insistent on our Constitution, and the American society in general.


 
Though that would have been 90 fewer casualties.

With the greatest respect Sir for the quality of your contributions here and with respect to your interpretation of the second amendment. The US goverment regulates, who can drive who can drink and who can take pharmecuticals with out breaching peoples constitutional rights.

I live in Tasmania, not far from here 20 years ago martin bryant used an AR-15 to kill 35 and wound a further 24 people.

Laws were passed, rules were changed and maybe we were just lucky but we havent had anything as bad in 20 years.
We can still hunt we can still own a gun but we chose to make buying a gun harder than picking up a six pack on the way home from work.

All things require balance, perhaps the balance in favor of the second amendment has gone too far perhaps there were things Jefferson thought were more important?

"We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life"

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## SQ8

Viper0011. said:


> "onslaught"......is an interesting and seriously wrong term. This is America we are talking about.The most welcoming and most accepting nation on the planet. I would be highly surprised if things go to that level where people are attacked, this is simply not the American society who does crap like this. We know better.
> 
> I was referring to some increase in discrimination at employment and some issues economically with businesses and stuff. But nothing too drastic. But the American Muslims will be protected under the same constitution I or anyone else is. We are not India where a minority member can be killed like a fly because he or she ate beef, or China, where someone can be disappeared if they talked about "the Party in a disobedient way".
> 
> America doesn't work like that, its that simple. We respect humanity even if we have strong feelings about some issue. On my way home every day, I see an Islamic Center off of one of the main roads I drive on. The beauty of America is, even after these attacks, we know that Muslims are humans and not everyone's a bad guy. In fact, 99% have lived here peacefully for decades, going back to 1900's. So, keeping that in mind, I saw double the police presence their today due to these sad incidents that took place, just to protect any retaliation. I saw the same on a Synagogue and a big Church this morning too.
> 
> ONLY in America, you'll find this level of constitutional protection. Nowhere on Earth will this happen like this. That moment, these things make you proud of your country , the system and the law enforcement guys who understood that no matter what happened yesterday, they needed to protect general public and stop another yesterday from happening. This speaks volumes for our American values of protecting human rights and lives.


The only caution has to be taken with white folk, Vietnamese(yes, the more white than white class) and Hispanics(same more white than white). Echoing the words of Muhammad Ali, no nigger ever called me a terrorist.

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## gambit

Kaptaan said:


> Not taking any sides in this discussion (although I support 100% gun control. No civilian should have a gun unless specfic need arising out of job they are doing) but your comparison is akin to comparing chalk with cheese.


If you support %100 gun control, which mean no availability at all, you have taken one side of this debate. I have no problems with that. Just be honest about it.



Kaptaan said:


> Islam is very loose definition of a very multiverse belief system with ever increasing number of interpretations. *On the other hand 2nd Amendment is a very tight legal precept and definition with specific effect.* In other words those who believe in 2nd Amendment share more in common than those who call themselves Muslim.


Actually...Not true.

If you study the debates on the 2nd Amendment, going all the way back to the first Constitutional Convention...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Convention_(United_States)


> ...took place from May 25 to September 17, 1787...


What perceptions about the 'right to bear arms' today are still as varied and hotly debated as back then. Anything from the interpretations of what is a 'militia' to what is a weapon.

The conventioneers did not specified 'firearms' which would be in line of what you said -- specificity. Rather, they broadly declared 'arms' which means anything that could be used *AS* a weapon and anything specifically designed *TO BE* a weapon.

What is a 'militia' ? The accepted context is that a 'militia' is a group of loosely organized and armed individuals that are under no official government control unless this group willed itself to be under such control. The contested context, at least in the US, is that a 'militia' under modern day concepts of nation-states and warfare is an official branch of the government would something like the National Guards and the 'people' would be the individual citizens under state governments. The generally accepted context is broad. The contestant context is much more narrow, hence, more restrictive in terms of weapons availability.

A much more broad challenge to the 2nd Amendment is that since the conventioneers specified 'militia', which is a group %99 created in times of dire national defense, items that are specifically designed to be weapons, like firearms or swords or spears, must be prohibited from popular ownership. Self defense would be limited to items that can be used *AS* a weapon, like a baseball/cricket bat or a golf club or a kitchen knife. This challenge is not accepted as a valid interpretation, but it is still presented nonetheless.

So yes, our Constitution can be as varied in interpretations as your Islamic principles.

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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> The only caution has to be taken with white folk, Vietnamese(yes, the more white than white class) and Hispanics(same more white than white). Echoing the words of Muhammad Ali, no nigger ever called me a terrorist.



Well echoing the words of Muhammad Ali is one thing. But looking at these back to back incidents, do you think he wouldn't have reservations if he was alive today? And why is the caution needed for Whites, Asians and Hispanics precisely?


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## SQ8

Viper0011. said:


> Well echoing the words of Muhammad Ali is one thing. But looking at these back to back incidents, do you think he wouldn't have reservations if he was alive today? And why is the caution needed for Whites, Asians and Hispanics precisely?



He had reservations already. The issue for caution has to do with the ethnicity of people spreading the hate. Again, caution is taken NOT with the race itself;but just as it is IMPORTANT to profile muslims these days because omar mateens and Farooks ARE among us, it is important for muslims to be wary of the most common people spreading hate. 

That does not call for a 60's black supremacy movement but one looking to avoid trouble areas like the rural mid and southwest. So far, its better not to walk into a biker's club or bar where you are to find the less educated. Sticking to the educated in most races is always the best; look for the blue collar and things get wary from there. 

The sad bit is , that Omar mateen isnt an actual case of terrorism as much as a deranged man with anger management issues. But farooq sayed is, as are the people who just stabbed a policeman and his wife in France today.

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## gambit

Vassnti said:


> Though that would have been 90 fewer casualties.
> 
> With the greatest respect Sir for the quality of your contributions here and with respect to your interpretation of the second amendment. The US goverment regulates, who can drive who can drink and who can take pharmecuticals with out breaching peoples constitutional rights.
> 
> I live in Tasmania, not far from here 20 years ago martin bryant used an AR-15 to kill 35 and wound a further 24 people.
> 
> Laws were passed, rules were changed and maybe we were just lucky but we havent had anything as bad in 20 years.
> We can still hunt we can still own a gun but we chose to make buying a gun harder than picking up a six pack on the way home from work.
> 
> All things require balance, perhaps the balance in favor of the second amendment has gone too far perhaps there were things Jefferson thought were more important?
> 
> "We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life"


I will not disagree with you in that the removal of certain weapons *WILL* reduce the casualty count. But what you are asking for simply cannot be done in the US.

A constitution is a virtual dictator. Every proposal for a law, aka a 'bill' or whatever equivalent in Australia, must pass constitutional scrutiny, meaning is this bill philosophically in line with this virtual dictator ? If yes, then the bill becomes law. If not, then either the bill is revised or simply die away.

When this dictator said that the right of the people to 'bear arms shall not be infringed' it is difficult to go 'too far'. Extremists have argued that 'shall not be infringed' equals to owning whatever the person can afford, meaning a tank or grenade launcher. But when the Supreme Court, a cadre of legalism high priests who claimed quasi mystical insights into the Constitution, divined that the dictator did not meant for ordinary citizens to own tanks and grenade launchers, we have gone as far from that extreme as possible without completely doing away with the 2nd Amendment.

In trying to understand the American society and people, one must readied the US Constitution. Just like the Quran have the hadiths, the US Constitution have accompanying commentaries from various people throughout US history, and those must be readied as well. What you asked for is essentially a repeal of the 2nd Amendment, thereby allowing the federal and state governments to establish laws regarding firearms as they see fit. Constitutional changes are not new. We have 27 of them. The older a particular amendment, such as the right to speech or the right to bear arms, the more intellectually and emotionally entrenched that amendment became in the collective American psyche, and the greater the efforts required to remove that passion from Americans at large.

The 'right to bear arms' is not the same as the right to self defense. No one is asking for Americans to not defend themselves and their properties. Everyone in all countries have the right to self defense. But this is about the right to weapons to defend themselves, whether it be from government tyranny or petty thieves. This is about the right to have weapons, not the right to use things *AS* weapons. An attacker, be it the government or the petty thief, fears a weapon more than a thing that can be used *AS* a weapon. It does not matter if the government have a machine gun and the citizenry have the single shot rifle. The lethality of a weapon increases the hesitancy of a potential attacker to become an attacker. The citizenry will always outnumber the military and if there are enough single shot rifles, that military will be defeated. All governments know this.

In sum, asking for a repeal of the 2nd Amendment is no less alarming than asking Americans to repeal the 1st Amendment. The argument is that the 2nd make possible and defend the 1st.

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## Viper0011.

gambit said:


> I will not disagree with you in that the removal of certain weapons *WILL* reduce the casualty count. But what you are asking for simply cannot be done in the US.
> 
> A constitution is a virtual dictator. Every proposal for a law, aka a 'bill' or whatever equivalent in Australia, must pass constitutional scrutiny, meaning is this bill philosophically in line with this virtual dictator ? If yes, then the bill becomes law. If not, then either the bill is revised or simply die away.
> 
> The 'right to bear arms' is not the same as the right to self defense. No one is asking for Americans to not defend themselves and their properties. Everyone in all countries have the right to self defense. .



Gambit, I thought exactly how you do till yesterday. But then I saw the pain, drama and suffering of ordinary people with my eyes. And after 911, this was the second time I saw this sort of in person. If you can understand the feeling, it was a punch n the gut to say the least to see so many suffering Americans in ONE place as little as two Coffee shops and a tiny parking combined. 

That's when I realized, can we, the Americans, through our second amendment in tact, STILL carry weapons as the second ammendment allows for it.......JUST not the combat / most lethal ones (an example the lovely and famous AR-15)? Remember, AR-15 was a preferred weapon that killed so many in these attacks, attacks that happened the last time and the attacks on Sandy Hook school.....I now believe we can still carry weapons as we please, it just can't be the most lethal combat rifles that easily serve as preferred killing machines in these sad incidents. May be stricter laws should be in place for someone to go through a mental stability examination who MUST have an AR-15? Just putting ideas out there. We have to do something about the free flow and availability of these lethal weapons to be honest. I've changed a lot on this topic just since yesterday!!

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## Thorough Pro

I am sure you meant "Ayah" (complete sentence), "Surah" (Chapter) or "Para" (book). Quaran is The "Word of GOD" and does not contain any "Hadith" which is "Saying or Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)............we get your point but comparing "man made" constitution with the "Word of GOD" is not a perfect example, constitution can be amended/revoked 




gambit said:


> I will not disagree with you in that the removal of certain weapons *WILL* reduce the casualty count. But what you are asking for simply cannot be done in the US........................
> In trying to understand the American society and people, one must readied the US Constitution. *Just like the Quran have the hadiths*, the US Constitution have accompanying commentaries from various people throughout US history.........................


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## Red-Bull

Thorough Pro said:


> "Word of GOD"


and what does this 'word of god' say about homosexuals ?


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## -SINAN-

Viper0011. said:


> now believe we can still carry weapons as we please, it just can't be the most lethal combat rifles that easily serve as preferred killing machines in these sad incidents. May be stricter laws should be in place for someone to go through a mental stability examination who MUST have an AR-15? Just putting ideas out there. We have to do something about the free flow and availability of these lethal weapons to be honest. I've changed a lot on this topic just since yesterday!!



No, Gambit can't give up his assault rifle....because it's his right. He will write down a wall of text, accuse people and religions for that right.

Victims are just "collateral damage" for him.

I heard that assailant went to local gun-shop bought an AR-15 and a pistol. Then entered the club and massacred people.....Just like that you can slaughter people....sounds surreal for me.


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## Thorough Pro

@mods @Oscar @waz please check this troll



Red-Bull said:


> and what does this 'word of god' say about homosexuals ?


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## Red-Bull

heh


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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> You avoided the double standards you gave, so I will remind the readers.
> 
> According to *YOU*...Since I share common beliefs with my fellow Americans, in particular the right to weapons, therefore any tragedy that involves guns, I must share some measure of guilt for that tragedy.
> 
> What is 'guilt':
> 
> - the fact of having committed a specified or implied offense or crime.
> - make (someone) feel guilty, especially in order to induce them to do something.
> 
> I cannot feel 'guilty' about an act unless I have accepted responsibility for that act, be it %1 or %100 responsibility.
> 
> And yet, for *YOU* and your religion, *YOU* refused to put yourself under the same standard.
> 
> 
> You and Omar Mateen (Orlando Pulse nightclub) have a common bond: The religion of Islam.
> 
> I and Tim McVeigh (Oklahoma bombing) have a common bond: 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution.
> 
> And yet, *YOU* claimed the right to refuse guilt by association but expect me to feel guilty for believing in my Constitutional right.
> 
> 
> Even if Mateen wounded only ten people with a kitchen knife, the root cause is still important, and it is a convenient distraction that firearms were involved so that gullible people will refocus their attention on guns, the American insistent on our Constitution, and the American society in general.
> 
> You simply do not like the fact that your religion in as much influential to Omar Mateen as the US Constitution is influential to American thoughts. You have no problems attacking our root cause -- the US Constitution, but insists that Islam cannot be the root cause, or at least a major psychological influence, in this tragedy.
> 
> 
> 
> No, mass shooting will not miraculously cease to exist, but at least we will not have to deal with one psychological influence.



Unbelievable....what i said, what i am trying to explain is gone to dust bin...i have talked all this pages for nothing....

I'm sick of your wall of texts....what are you trying to prove...Do you have any way to prevent this attack or no ? Even a tiny contribution can you do it or not ?



gambit said:


> He follows the conversation just fine.
> 
> *YOU* would prefers that the conversation stay away from psychology and religion and focus on the tools of the trade and not the mentality of the tradesman.


I told, you several times....they are not normal people each had their motives....Yet, you keep focusing on my religion....I have nothing more to say.



gambit said:


> I and a few friends recently took some Chinese friends to go shooting in the hills on public lands. In one afternoon, each of the Chinese, including the women, were able to empty 12 rounds in my Steyr M40 in less than 10 seconds. At 50 meters, I can center mass all 12 rounds at one round per sec. Each of our Chinese friends have never shot before, and in one afternoon lesson, each can center mass all 12 rounds at 25 meters and less distance. They did it with calibers from 9mm to .45 cal. We joked that when they return to China, they will have more firearms experience than %99 of the Chinese population. In a crowd and when the people in this crowd is in close proximity to each other, like a nightclub/bar setting, an amateur can do the same damage with a pistol as he could with a semi-auto like an AR-15.
> 
> In 'mass shootings', the shooters chose that environment because...
> 
> - The targets are always unaware that they have become targets, hence they have not mentally conditioned themselves to respond to any threat in any way.
> 
> - Exits are few and with crowd mentality, the people will continue to present ideal shooting condition as they flee towards those exits.
> 
> A weapon like an AR-15 is more for the psychological effect on the shooter than it is for efficacy, meaning how many people can the shooter hit. An AR-15 make him feel more 'badass' than a pistol could, and because of the scary appearance of the weapon, the media and gullible people like you inevitably focus on the scary tool and 'gun laws' and less on everything else, including psychological influences like religion.
> 
> At the Sandy Hook school shooting, from a strict technical perspective, could Adam Lanza have killed those 20 children with just a pistol ? Absolutely. But because he used a much more scary looking weapon, naturally most people, especially those who do not understand firearms, turned their attention to that scary looking gun. If Adam Lanza can be proficient enough to use an AR-15, he can be proficient enough with a pistol.
> 
> Here is what you do not understand and the anti-gun commentators deceptively omitted: There is nothing about a semi-automatic rifle that would make a person learn to shoot faster than with a pistol.
> 
> In fact, it is the opposite. If you want to be a good shooter, the progression should be, from simplest to most difficult: revolver - pistol - rifle. That was how I learned to shoot and how the vast majority of law abiding US gun owners learned how to shoot. Despite what Hollywood portrays, a rifle, even a semi like the AR-15, requires double the physical efforts than a pistol to operate. It is easier to shoot accurately single handed with a pistol than with an AR-15.
> 
> So why do gunmen like Adam Lanza and Omar Mateen in their mass shootings used the AR-15 ? Purely for their own psychological needs and not out of technical needs. Psychology and environment are more of an impact in mass shooting than gun laws.



A pistol and an assault rifle is not equally deadly....you are trying so hard to say otherwise, but it's not dude.


----------



## New Resolve

Live and let live.


----------



## gambit

Sinan said:


> Unbelievable....what i said, what i am trying to explain is gone to dust bin...i have talked all this pages for nothing....


Maybe because your arguments are nothing.



Sinan said:


> I'm sick of your wall of texts....


Likewise to yours.



Sinan said:


> what are you trying to prove...Do you have any way to prevent this attack or no ? Even a tiny contribution can you do it or not ?


You ask not because you want to learn anything new but to put me into an impossible position. And I have no problems saying I am in an impossible position.

There is absolutely *NO WAY* for me or for anyone to prevent mass murders. If it is not with a gun, it can and will be with an IED, which the Boston Marathon bombers used.

But I have no problem returning the favor to put you into an equally impossible position regarding your religion. What can you do to contribute to reduce Islam inspired terrorism ? Nothing ? Then why do you want to put me into guilt but not yourself ? For you and your religion, you demand personal responsibility. But for Americans and our guns, you demand collective responsibility and guilt.



Sinan said:


> I told, you several times....they are not normal people each had their motives....Yet, you keep focusing on my religion....*I have nothing more to say.*


You had nothing worthwhile to say to start. What I posted were not for you because I fingered you out from the beginning.



Sinan said:


> A pistol and an assault rifle is not equally deadly....you are trying so hard to say otherwise, but it's not dude.


The AR-15 is *NOT* an assault weapon. Never was. But since you seems to be easily impressed by appearance, I guess if it looks like an assault rifle -- it is. 



Thorough Pro said:


> I am sure you meant "Ayah" (complete sentence), "Surah" (Chapter) or "Para" (book). Quaran is The "Word of GOD" and does not contain any "Hadith" which is "Saying or Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)............we get your point but comparing "man made" constitution with the "Word of GOD" is not a perfect example, constitution can be amended/revoked


I am not interested in getting into a theological debate about Islam and its texts. You know exactly what I meant.


----------



## IceCold

gambit said:


> You simply do not like the fact that your religion in as much influential to Omar Mateen as the US Constitution is influential to American thoughts. You have no problems attacking our root cause -- the US Constitution, *but insists that Islam cannot be the root cause*, or at least a major psychological influence, in this tragedy.



There have been cases of shooting in the US where the killer was not a Muslim, so what do you think was the root cause than, as it cannot be Islam for them?


----------



## gambit

Viper0011. said:


> Gambit, I thought exactly how you do till yesterday. But then I saw the pain, drama and suffering of ordinary people with my eyes. And after 911, this was the second time I saw this sort of in person. If you can understand the feeling, it was a punch n the gut to say the least to see so many suffering Americans in ONE place as little as two Coffee shops and a tiny parking combined.
> 
> That's when I realized, can we, the Americans, through our second amendment in tact, STILL carry weapons as the second ammendment allows for it.......JUST not the combat / most lethal ones (an example the lovely and famous AR-15)? Remember, AR-15 was a preferred weapon that killed so many in these attacks, attacks that happened the last time and the attacks on Sandy Hook school.....I now believe we can still carry weapons as we please, it just can't be the most lethal combat rifles that easily serve as preferred killing machines in these sad incidents. May be stricter laws should be in place for someone to go through a mental stability examination who MUST have an AR-15? Just putting ideas out there. We have to do something about the free flow and availability of these lethal weapons to be honest. I've changed a lot on this topic just since yesterday!!


Then we should ban base on caliber, not appearance.

The Mossberg MVP Patrol, the Ruger Mini 14, and the AR-15 have the same caliber of 5.56. The Mossberg is bolt action and will require more effort to operate. The Ruger Mini 14 is semi-auto and essentially is the same as the AR-15 without all the 'scary' appliances. You can look them up. The Ruger is less expensive and has the same rate of fire as the AR-15: as quick as your index finger can pull the trigger.

Ban the rifle of any caliber and operation. Ban the shotgun as well. Might as well repeal the 2nd Amendment while we are at it. Why not ? We Constitutionally banned alcohol for a few yrs.



IceCold said:


> There have been cases of shooting in the US where the killer was not a Muslim, so what do you think was the root cause than, as it cannot be Islam for them?


I have commented on this. There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, whether that violence is small and local or large and wide scope. There is depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, and assorted mental health issues. If someone let his emotion get the better of him, we can chalk that off as character flaw, as in lack of self control. Then there is race, nationalism, and religion.

One or combination of these things must be the root cause or causes. We have to find out via time consuming post mortem analysis. But if it make Muslims more comfortable to call non-Islam related violence as 'Christian' terrorism, do so, and let everyone see how far that will go. Why not call cartoons of Muhammad as emotional terrorism ? Many Muslims already done exactly that.


----------



## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> aybe because your arguments are nothing.


No, English is not my mother language and i'm not fluent. So, during the conversation, i expect you to understand things without me explaining it in very detail. However you use that for bending my words, loading different meanings to my words.



gambit said:


> There is absolutely *NO WAY* for me or for anyone to prevent mass murders. If it is not with a gun, it can and will be with an IED, which the Boston Marathon bombers used.


Again the IED thing....again the they will find different methods thing....

No, if they don't have assault guns and free access to guns, this won't be the case...They gave you a very good example from Australia...

No...you have to keep your AR-15 and keep firing .....that's more important for you than the lives of your country man.....



gambit said:


> But I have no problem returning the favor to put you into an equally impossible position regarding your religion. What can you do to contribute to reduce Islam inspired terrorism ? Nothing ? Then why do you want to put me into guilt but not yourself ? For you and your religion, you demand personal responsibility. But for Americans and our guns, you demand collective responsibility and guilt.



Look i will make this thing very simple....

1-) Me trying to prevent Jihadists from cultvating....I will leave my work and pregnant wife, stop providing for them. And illegally cross to Syria, go to Rakka, and preach against the Terrorists which will be my certain death.

2-) You vote for whoever takes a stance for anti gun laws. Nothing more.

^^^ It's that simple. Now, among this 2 examples one is doable...other one is not.



gambit said:


> You had nothing worthwhile to say to start. What I posted were not for you because I fingered you out from the beginning.


I think likewise for you.



gambit said:


> The AR-15 is *NOT* an assault weapon. Never was. But since you seems to be easily impressed by appearance, I guess if it looks like an assault rifle -- it is.



You may categorize it as a can opener if you like....what does it changes ? It's deadly as an AK-47....what do you say in terminology machine gun, DMR, semi-automatic ? He was able to kill 50 people with that rifle.



gambit said:


> I have commented on this. There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, whether that violence is small and local or large and wide scope. There is depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, and assorted mental health issues. If someone let his emotion get the better of him, we can chalk that off as character flaw, as in lack of self control. Then there is race, nationalism, and religion.
> 
> One or combination of these things must be the root cause or causes. We have to find out via time consuming post mortem analysis. But if it make Muslims more comfortable to call non-Islam related violence as 'Christian' terrorism, do so, and let everyone see how far that will go. Why not call cartoons of Muhammad as emotional terrorism ? Many Muslims already done exactly that.



Stick on this idea, i see....._There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, One or combination of these things must be the root cause or causes. We have to find out via time consuming post mortem analysis. 
_
Identifying the cause means nothing, if you can't remove the cause for the future attacks. And i gave you several incidents, with several causes...you won't be able to remove the causes....why don't you want to understand.....


*Guy says, he killed because he was jealous of the other people who was having sex. How are you going to remove that cause and prevent future attacks, So, state will have to provide sex services for all the people who can't get laid ?*



gambit said:


> Might as well repeal the 2nd Amendment while we are at it. Why not ?


Yeah, maybe you should revise the 220 year old constitution which have been written during "Wild West" times.....


----------



## Roybot

*War veteran saves dozens during Orlando nightclub shooting*









> Imran Yousuf, a bouncer at the Pulse nightclub, never saw the gunman in the early Sunday morning hours. Right after last call, he was making his rounds, and barely missed coming face-to-face with Mateen.
> 
> *Yousuf, a 24-year-old Hindu, served as a U.S. Marine in Afghanistan.* On Saturday night, thecombat zone followed him to Orlando.



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/war-vet...uring-orlando-nightclub-shooting-omar-mateen/



Not sure what the deal is, but the news report says Imran Yousef, a Hindu. I am guessing he is probably an Indian Muslim.


----------



## Bratva

gambit said:


> In the Boston Marathon bombing, the home made IEDs came from rice cookers and they were powerful enough to either severed limbs or do enough damage to warrant amputations later in the hospitals.
> 
> 
> This is in *YOUR* country, pal...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Ankara_bombings
> 
> Are you that desperate to regard US in so negative a light that you are willing to be that intellectually dishonest ? I guess so.
> 
> 
> Sure it does. It contribute to preventative measures.
> 
> 
> Guilt from what ?
> 
> The laws says this and that technicalities on what make an 'assault' weapon or not. The majority of gun owners complied. So if someone is going to mischaracterize what they own, of course we are going to speak up on those technicalities.
> 
> 
> Considering how many more Muslims are killed by Muslims using a variety of weapons, you are SOL in your criticism of US, pal.
> 
> 
> The difference then is that no religion were invoked.
> 
> You cannot dismiss powerful influences like race, nationalism, and/or religion.




Here we go, Theory materializing that he was a closeted gay. Drank alcohol, were on differe gay dating apps. A classic case of self hating and conflicting nature manifesting into extreme hatred and tendency to do violence

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/4nz2f8/report_orlando_shooter_was_a_regular_at_the_gay/

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## IceCold

gambit said:


> I have commented on this. There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, whether that violence is small and local or large and wide scope. There is d*epression, bipolar, schizophrenia, and assorted mental health issues*. If someone let his emotion get the better of him, we can chalk that off as character flaw, as in lack of self control. Then there is race, nationalism, and religion.



So dont you think that such disorders take centre stage when there is no Gun control in the US. It gets all the more easy for any depressed, bipolar schizophrenia to get a gun and take it out on others. Whether religion plays a role in this or not becomes moot because at the end whatever may be the reason, its very easy to get a gun in the US because of the US constitution and than the results are there in front of us all.
On the other hand if there is a strict Gun law, you are taking the means out of any depressed, bipolar, schizophrenia individual to simply go on a killing sphere.

By the way whey does US not introduce a law where those individual that have a history of mental disorder or have been on FBI watchlist to be banned at all from getting weapons?


----------



## gambit

IceCold said:


> So dont you think that such disorders take centre stage when there is no Gun control in the US.


Wrong. There are gun control laws in the US. Plenty of them.



IceCold said:


> It gets all the more easy for any depressed, bipolar schizophrenia to get a gun and take it out on others.


But the statistics do not bear this out.

For starter, gun related violence are overwhelmingly gang related. Then there is suicide by guns, so we can rule this out of the debate. I knew that when I brought up mental health issues, you or someone is going to gleefully seize on this and will try to portray the US as rife with mentally ill people running amok armed with 'assault' rifles.



IceCold said:


> Whether religion plays a role in this or not becomes moot because at the end whatever may be the reason, its very easy to get a gun in the US because of the US constitution and than the results are there in front of us all.


It is not moot. Religion is a powerful intellectual and emotional force. People left their families and died for religions. You do not know that ?


----------



## Indus Pakistan

gambit said:


> If you support %100 gun control, which mean no availability at all, you have taken one side of this debate. I have no problems with that. Just be honest about it.


I believe in zero guns in society. I thought I was being honest by making my position clear and that I was not going to weigh into the "gun debate" within USA because from previous discussions with American's in other forums I know how the subject is very tricky. Thus my position. Your country. Your rules.



gambit said:


> Actually...Not true.


At one level everything, I mean everything is open to subjective interpretation. That I agree with you. However let's be realistic here. One amendment within the US legal architecture whose interpretation is solely limited to one arm of the US government - the judiciary in the shape of Supreme Court is going to have "tighter" definition than a religion which has been around for 1,400 years, is found across 40 countries, has no central authority to give legal binding definitions. Every mullah makes his own interpretation and by the time your done the only common denomintor is, well belief in Allah.


----------



## Gibbs

Vassnti said:


> Though that would have been 90 fewer casualties.
> 
> With the greatest respect Sir for the quality of your contributions here and with respect to your interpretation of the second amendment. The US goverment regulates, who can drive who can drink and who can take pharmecuticals with out breaching peoples constitutional rights.
> 
> I live in Tasmania, not far from here 20 years ago martin bryant used an AR-15 to kill 35 and wound a further 24 people.
> 
> Laws were passed, rules were changed and maybe we were just lucky but we havent had anything as bad in 20 years.
> We can still hunt we can still own a gun but we chose to make buying a gun harder than picking up a six pack on the way home from work.
> 
> All things require balance, perhaps the balance in favor of the second amendment has gone too far perhaps there were things Jefferson thought were more important?
> 
> "We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life"



Couldn't have said it better.. There are two parties here in total denial, One most Muslims that think that some Jihadi killing in the name of Islam has nothing to do with their faith, And the other supporters of NRA who think that these killings have nothing to do with the incomprehensible lack of gun control in the US

Both use archaic/ Outdated laws/decree's to try and legitimize these crimes against humanity.. One religious other civil

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## Desert Fox

Sinan said:


> A pistol and an assault rifle is not equally deadly....you are trying so hard to say otherwise, but it's not dude.


A semi-auto "assault rifle" (according to you, but that's not what it's categorized as) is similar to a pistol because both aren't full auto or single burst but can only fire single shots at a time.

The weapon the terrorist had was a AR-15, the semi-auto version of the M4. @gambit already explained this point thoroughly to you yet you keep bringing up the same thing.



Gibbs said:


> Couldn't have said it better.. There are two parties here in total denial, One most Muslims that think that some Jihadi killing in the name of Islam has nothing to do with their faith, And the other supporters of NRA who think that these killings have nothing to do with the incomprehensible lack of gun control in the US
> 
> Both use archaic/ Outdated laws/decree's to try and legitimize these crimes against humanity.. One religious other civil


There are more than 80 million Americans who are registered firearms owners. Unless you can prove that even 10% of that number approves of the gun crimes like the one at the gay bar or shares the beliefs of the terrorist your comparison of the 2nd amendment to Islam/Muslims doesn't hold. On the other hand there are polls from every major Muslim population all across the globe, including Western countries, where a majority of the Muslim population, sometimes upwards of 90%, unanimously believe Shariah law should be implemented and this includes some form of punishment for homosexuals, including death. This is a fact, though an inconvenient one for some, but a fact nonetheless.

Therefore, if we were to implement the logic of those on this thread who base their argument on such a logic it would be Islam & Muslims who would be banned/controlled in America (& other western countries) since there is evidence to implicate them for the extremist views they hold in a large majority.

*Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll find - The Guardian *

*The latest WikiLeaks revelation: 1 in 3 British Muslim students back killing for Islam and 40% want Sharia law - The Daily Mail*










http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/


​


----------



## IceCold

gambit said:


> Wrong. There are gun control laws in the US. Plenty of them


Care to elaborate on these laws?



> But the statistics do not bear this out


Majority of all these incidents recently have been individuals whether they were at school or elsewhere. No where was any gang involved.




> It is not moot. Religion is a powerful intellectual and emotional force. People left their families and died for religions. You do not know that ?


Yes it is but you don't want to admit it because its easy to blame everything on religion specially when its Islam. The reason I pointed this out in my original post when I said that similar incidents were also done by non Muslims what's the excuse for them? I was right they were given all the medical terms that one could find out yet when the same incident happened by a so called Muslim there was only one name given terrorist and blame the whole religion and community for it. Yes People have died for religion but not just Muslims but Christian and Jews too. That does not mean behind a so called Muslim it's always Islam while for others religion No, they are just sick.


----------



## Khan_patriot

iPhone said:


> No, I know. But even with all the training those are still semi-auto rifles the gun stores sell. To be able to kill over 50 people single handadly is just insane.


Ever fired a semi-auto??
Arguably a semi-auto beats an auto during a shooting spree because you can conserve ammo better given that you can carry little of it


----------



## -SINAN-

Desert Fox said:


> A semi-auto "assault rifle" (according to you, but that's not what it's categorized as) is similar to a pistol because both aren't full auto or single burst but can only fire single shots at a time.
> 
> The weapon the terrorist had was a AR-15, the semi-auto version of the M4. @gambit already explained this point thoroughly to you yet you keep bringing up the same thing.


Yeah, i keep saying the same thing, because it's not the equivalent of a hand gun.

Also, this non-sense. I'm not saying ban AR-15 but permit handguns...arrange your laws.

I know this is a very debatable subject....that's why discussions in the US going for years. There is simply no-easy solution and i don't care, they can mount miniguns in their homes if they want. *I don't care.

I just wanted to give my opinion. 
*


Sinan said:


> I don't think this incident is related with ISIS....once in a while in US, some crazy mofo sprays his machine gun over innocent souls...
> 
> As i see, this is the price you have to pay, for giving any kinds of weapons to US citizens without any constraint. Out of millions of people there will be some mofos like this and the previous ones.
> 
> This is not the first and will be the last incident with the gun laws you have.


----------



## gambit

Kaptaan said:


> I believe in zero guns in society. I thought I was being honest by making my position clear and that I was not going to weigh into the "gun debate" within USA because from previous discussions with American's in other forums I know how the subject is very tricky. Thus my position. Your country. Your rules.


If you believe in a 'zero guns society', then by default your position is anti-gun. I have no problems with that. What I expect is that since the 2nd Amendment is a 'tricky' issue by your own experience, anyone, American or not, who wishes to inject his opinions into a discussion about US society and our gun laws, be open about his attitude about guns. You cannot be for zero guns and yet cannot take a side. That is an intellectual illogic.

Being 'for' guns does not mean you advocate that everyone must be armed. Being 'for' guns simply means you want guns to be available as a choice. So if you are a for a 'zero guns society', it is about having no guns at all and that the government is empowered to make that non-availability a reality.

http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS Reports/GSS_Trends in Gun Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf

Table 1 shows that gun ownership in American have been steadily declining for the past 40 yrs. However, American attitudes about the 2nd Amendment, including non owners, have not decrease to match in terms of veneration, if you will, of that Constitutional right, which also means that Americans as a whole do not want anyone to alter the 2nd Amendment as is.

When it comes to self defense, there is no middle ground. Either you are for it or against it. With self defense inevitably involves weapons. Only in cheap Hong Kong kung-fu movies does the hero does not want guns. If you are anti-gun, that does not mean you are against the right to self defense, it means you have no problems with a person, including yourself, of being physically inferior to an assailant who want to do terrible things to you.



Kaptaan said:


> At one level everything, I mean everything is open to subjective interpretation. That I agree with you. However let's be realistic here. One amendment within the US legal architecture whose interpretation is solely limited to one arm of the US government - the judiciary in the shape of Supreme Court is going to have "tighter" definition than a religion which has been around for 1,400 years, is found across 40 countries, has no central authority to give legal binding definitions. Every mullah makes his own interpretation and by the time your done the only common denomintor is, well belief in Allah.


Yes, there are only nine US Supreme Court Justices and their jurisdiction is confined to the US and her citizens. Yes, there are over 1 bils Muslims in most countries in the world. But the issue is not about the scope of Islam or of the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution. The issue is about the variations of interpretations that are produced by the people of whom a certain principle holds reign.

If idea A is entertained by only two individuals and each have a different interpretation of A, idea B is irrelevant to them even if B is entertained by one million individuals. Idea A does not hold jurisdiction over the believers of idea B, and vice versa. So if there are one million interpretations of idea B, the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution is quite analogous to your Islam.



IceCold said:


> Care to elaborate on these laws?


Am not going to babysit you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_United_States

That is just federal laws. Not counting states.



IceCold said:


> Majority of all these incidents recently have been individuals whether they were at school or elsewhere. No where was any gang involved.


That is terribly poor critical thinking skill. Sorry to say it. Just because no gangs were reported in Sandy Hook school shooting, that mean on gangs and guns do not exists ?

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/fullpage/chicago-gang-violence-numbers-17509042

And people on this forum says Americans are stupid.



IceCold said:


> Yes it is but you don't want to admit it because its easy to blame everything on religion specially when its Islam. *The reason I pointed this out in my original post when I said that similar incidents were also done by non Muslims what's the excuse for them?* I was right they were given all the medical terms that one could find out yet when the same incident happened by a so called Muslim there was only one name given terrorist and blame the whole religion and community for it. Yes People have died for religion but not just Muslims but Christian and Jews too. That does not mean behind a so called Muslim it's always Islam while for others religion No, they are just sick.


You are seriously confused between 'excuse' and 'cause'. They are not the same. Do some reading on their differences. From this gross error alone, I cannot adequately debate your post.

Here is the reality...






The old argument of 'guns do not kill people, people kill people' holds true. But when it comes to the US, logic and reasoning are flushed down the toilet.



Sinan said:


> Yeah, i keep saying the same thing, because it's not the equivalent of a hand gun.


The AR-15 and the handgun is identical in terms of operation -- semi-automatic. Why is that so difficult to understand ? That is why the man asked if you have ever shoot a semi-auto.



Sinan said:


> Also, this non-sense. I'm not saying ban AR-15 but permit handguns...arrange your laws.


Then what are you saying ? Arrange our laws ? That is the real nonsense. It is grossly vague. Arrange to do what and to what ? If you do not advocate banning the AR-15, then why do you focus on it, especially when its operation is the same as a semi-auto pistol ?



Sinan said:


> I know this is a very debatable subject....that's why discussions in the US going for years. There is simply no-easy solution and i don't care, they can mount miniguns in their homes if they want. *I don't care.
> 
> I just wanted to give my opinion.*


Too bad your opinions are not more coherent.

Ban knives now...!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm


> A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase - and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.
> 
> They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon.
> 
> The research is published in the British Medical Journal.
> 
> *The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all.*



http://www.snopes.com/2015/06/22/save-a-life-surrender-your-knife/


> *TRUE*
> 
> The new “Save a Life — Surrender Your Knife” program is in full swing and police are telling us that they have joined forces with an already growing trend in the United Kingdom to ban “pointy” knives.
> 
> Lancashire Police tell us that an “amnesty” program began at the end of August, and “more than 800 knives have been handed in across the county — including swords, machetes and commando knives.”
> 
> “The amnesty was extended for a further week owing to its success,” Lancashire Police representatives explained.
> 
> The Lancashire department explains that their “officers have now given their backing to a national initiative designed to raise awareness of knife crime and encourage the surrender of dangerous weapons.”

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## Viper0011.

gambit said:


> Then we should ban base on caliber, not appearance.
> 
> The Mossberg MVP Patrol, the Ruger Mini 14, and the AR-15 have the same caliber of 5.56. The Mossberg is bolt action and will require more effort to operate. The Ruger Mini 14 is semi-auto and essentially is the same as the AR-15 without all the 'scary' appliances. You can look them up. The Ruger is less expensive and has the same rate of fire as the AR-15: as quick as your index finger can pull the trigger.
> 
> Ban the rifle of any caliber and operation. Ban the shotgun as well. Might as well repeal the 2nd Amendment while we are at it. Why not ? We Constitutionally banned alcohol for a few yrs.



I think that's a good point NATO rounds / caliber should be banned so no AR-15's, etc and none of the weapons with long magazines should be in place. If I am going to shoot on a range or hunt, I can take my sweet time to reload my AR or whatever heavy bore / caliber rifle I am using and can fire as many shots as I want to, as its all considered "recreational" activities!! I know Ruger mini 14 well Gambit. I told you in my post, I used to think just like you, till yesterday!!

Think about it, Shot Gun...or a Pistol with a standard 10-12 bullet magazine. In a scenario like Orlando, the person will soon be out of ammo inside the gun and the loading process isn't instantaneous compared to if one was using an AR or Ruger with a longer magazine. Loading a shot gun takes a few second. So its enough time that people or police will over come you. The "collateral damage" (SADLY in this case innocents) will not be as high as this was. 

Plus, the system needs more and better checks. I bought a gun in Florida last year, not too far from this place in discussion. They said there is a standard wait period in the State of Florida for 6 days that's a state law. The idea is, if some crazy person is high on crazy emotions and if he or she wants to go kill someone in anger, the 6 day period allows them to cool off. Now, let's say this fu**ing bast*ard went and bought two guns, I think there should've been a reporting process on AR-15 where the shop asked for an extended background check from the FBI. We all now know he had been interviewed by them. The purchase of two guns, should've been delayed by issuing a small one first (enough for self defense as that is the primary purpose of us having weapons to begin with). And the second gun would be released 2-3 weeks later, after the FBI again vetted him through the process and probably refused a gun to him once they found out that the guy was a nutt case and un-diagnosed bi-polar maniac like his ex-wife explains.

Sad to say, many countries follow this strict processes. I was researching last night to see how different we are from the rest of the world. And I came across many different laws across the globe where the process is MUCH stricter.

Second amendment doesn't need to be repealed or changed. The process has to be modified. In fact, remember, when that SAME second amendment was being designed.......they didn't have stuff like AR-15 and AK-47!!!!! If they did, and they say the legality of it, I am more than positive that they would put a "(weapons not included combat caliber automatic or semi-automatics articles)" next to the amendment!!



> I have commented on this. There are clinically legitimate reasons for violence, whether that violence is small and local or large and wide scope. There is depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, and assorted mental health issues. If someone let his emotion get the better of him, we can chalk that off as character flaw, as in lack of self control. Then there is race, nationalism, and religion..



I agree with everything you said above. There are many medical reasons for all this. But to save our fellow citizens, we need stricter processes in place to vet out the crazies from getting these assault weapons. And, if "somehow" someone gets it, we need a reporting process and an investigation by the FBI, before the possession of the weapon is given to someone (specially in this case, when someone has been interviewed by the FBI) and his dad on his tv shows, was a sympathizer of Talibans!! Go figure!! People who worked with him, said that they sort of knew he'd be involved with violence one day!!

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## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> he AR-15 and the handgun is identical in terms of operation -- semi-automatic. Why is that so difficult to understand ? That is why the man asked if you have ever shoot a semi-auto.


No, i shoot with G3 during my military service. 

I still remember what our military officer said, when they first handed out the rifles to us;
"This a dangerous weapon. If you line up people and and shoot at the first one in the line. That guy would be shot, maybe bullet can pass through and 2nd guy in the can be shot. If you do the same thing with G3 bullet will down at least 7 people in the line. So, never point your gun to someone else even it's empty, never place the finger on the trigger and i will bash your skull if i see your rifles with no safety on"

Yet you still say, hand gun and rifle is the same thing.... 



gambit said:


> Too bad your opinions are not more coherent.
> 
> Ban knives now...!!!


Yeah, with that logic, a person can kill other with his fists, will you ban fists ?

You have this issue. People randomly kills bunch of another people once in a while. I'm saying guns are the issue. And you have to deal with the situation. How you are going to deal with the situation is up to you. Are you going to ban only rifles, or all of the firearms....it's up to you.

You on the other hand say that guns are not the real issue it's the people. You say that instead of banning guns, we have to deal with the this people's motivations which drives them to mass-killing.

And i'm saying it's impossible to deal with the people's motivation, because they all have different motivations and their motivation makes no sense to ordinary people.


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## Solomon2

I suppose the true motivation for harping on gun control is that it's forbidden to discuss the theological motivations of the attacker. When this murderer called police to boast of his deeds and justify himself, he did not cite loose gun-control laws as his motivation, did he? If he didn't have guns readily available he would have used knives and bombs. 

It's always important for civilians to maintain their weapons around would-be tyrants and terrorists. That's why we have the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Just think of how much better the Yezhidis in Iraq would have been had they not succumbed to the assurances of ISIS that they would be protected and surrendered their guns.

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## Viper0011.

gambit said:


> Here is the reality...




Gambit - Homicide (individual murders or crimes), is A LOT different than mass shootings and murdering small children in school or mass killing innocents who were just trying to have a good time at pulse!!!! In homicides, you lose one person or two in some criminal activity. In these shootings, you lose dozens of innocents that didn't deserve bullets life to end like this!!

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## -SINAN-

Viper0011. said:


> I agree with everything you said above. There are many medical reasons for all this. But to save our fellow citizens, we need stricter processes in place to vet out the crazies from getting these assault weapons. And, if "somehow" someone gets it, we need a reporting process and an investigation by the FBI, before the possession of the weapon is given to someone (specially in this case, when someone has been interviewed by the FBI) and his dad on his tv shows, was a sympathizer of Talibans!! Go figure!! People who worked with him, said that they sort of knew he'd be involved with violence one day!!


Heve you seen that guy's home ?



























This one below is very interesting...pics of cathedral and ruins of the roman civilization. And these jihadist nutjobs don't hang pictures in their homes, especially human pictures. His way of life looks so different from a radicalized man.


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## livingdead

Sinan said:


> Heve you seen that guy's home ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one below is very interesting...pics of cathedral and ruins of the roman civilization. And these jihadist nutjobs don't hang pictures in their homes, especially human pictures. His way of life looks so different from a radicalized man.


read a news item that he was regular in that gay club... may be scorned by his lover...


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## -SINAN-

hinduguy said:


> read a news item that he was regular in that gay club... may be scorned by his lover...


I dunno but something is off.


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## Sky lord

Seems like he used gay dating apps. .....motivation not clear but

Could be that he had gay inclinations himself and may have been filled with self loathing....combined with a tendency to violence...does not mix well.


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## livingdead

Sinan said:


> I dunno but something is off.


it was too early to call it terrorism though.. they should do an investigation first...


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## -SINAN-

hinduguy said:


> it was too early to call it terrorism though.. they should do an investigation first...


_*Terrorism* is classified as fourth-generation warfare and as a violent crime. In its broadest sense, is defined as the use of violence, or threatened use of violence, in order to achieve a political, religious, or ideological aim. _

If it's like you say...yeah it's not terrorism. But you know, he called 911 and pledged alliance to isis, so naturally first impression would be a terror act.



Sky lord said:


> Seems like he used gay dating apps. .....motivation not clear but
> 
> Could be that he had gay inclinations himself and may have been filled with self loathing....combined with a tendency to violence...does not mix well.


Any source ?


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## Sky lord

Sinan said:


> Any source ?



NPR news...just heard it this morning. 

Apparently one guy he contacted over a period of several months. 

While his motivation is still unclear, it may be that he was confused about his own sexuality.

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## gambit

Viper0011. said:


> Think about it, Shot Gun...or a Pistol with a standard 10-12 bullet magazine. In a scenario like Orlando, the person will soon be out of ammo inside the gun and the loading process isn't instantaneous compared to if one was using an AR or Ruger with a longer magazine.


You are talking to someone who owns three firearms: Steyr M40 pistol, Noveske AR-15, and a DSA FAL 308.

All three are semi-autos. Reloading each take no significant time than the other.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/firerate.html


> When the magazine in the gun is emptied, the user just presses a button and that magazine is ejected. With the other hand the user reaches into a pouch, retrieves a full magazine, inserts it in place of the empty one, and pushes a button on the gun to make the gun load the first cartridge into the firing chamber. *All this can be done in two to three seconds.*


There is no shortage of youtube vids on how fast can a pistol be reloaded and that does not mean someone who is yrs trained and a regular shooter.



Viper0011. said:


> Loading a shot gun takes a few second. So its enough time that people or police will over come you. The "collateral damage" (SADLY in this case innocents) will not be as high as this was.


This is absurd. You are talking Hollywood. In the Pulse nightclub, when the shooting start, there is going to be panic. Even for a calm individual, it will take more than a few seconds for him to get a bearing on where the shots came from, assuming the most optimistic scenario that the music will allow him to hear the shots' direction with such precision.

First, if he has any common sense, he is going to drop to the ground.

Second, he will *WAIT* while on the ground to get his position in relation to the shooter's.

Are you going to presume luck that he is going to be right next to the shooter ?

What I see in this discussion is the overwhelming desire to blame the American gun culture as to disregard common sense and enter the fantastic.



Viper0011. said:


> Second amendment doesn't need to be repealed or changed. The process has to be modified. In fact, remember, when that SAME second amendment was being designed.......they didn't have stuff like AR-15 and AK-47!!!!! If they did, and they say the legality of it, I am more than positive that they would put a "(weapons not included combat caliber automatic or semi-automatics articles)" next to the amendment!!


The 5.56 is .223 mm. That mean the larger pistol round of 9mm is 'combat caliber' ? How about my M40 which is .40 cal ? How about the .45 cal ? Why not ban anything larger than .22 short ?

This is ridiculous.


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## Viper0011.

Solomon2 said:


> I suppose the true motivation for harping on gun control is that it's forbidden to discuss the theological motivations of the attacker. When this murderer called police to boast of his deeds and justify himself, he did not cite loose gun-control laws as his motivation, did he? If he didn't have guns readily available he would have used knives and bombs.
> 
> It's always important for civilians to maintain their weapons around would-be tyrants and terrorists. That's why we have the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Just think of how much better the Yezhidis in Iraq would have been had they not succumbed to the assurances of ISIS that they would be protected and surrendered their guns.



My man, right to protect and have weapons as outlined by the second amendment is obviously not going to be touched, we all know that. I think the purpose is to find a stricter process for combat / war assault weapons to be restricted for insane maniacs. If you hear the Director of the FBI on this Orlando incident, this guy called 911, pledged allegiance to ISIS, at the same time praised other terrorists who were against ISIS and they had opposite religious and territorial claims directly in-confrontation with ISIS. So who was he really with? Was he inspired by all three? Well, then he was just a crazy maniac who was violent enough to just wanting to kill and Hitler would've been his next mentor on that as he was going around praising all different types of terrorists!!

Plus, outside of this one issue, what about the school shootings and previous other incidents? You think those guys were smart enough to go build these sophisticated stuff themselves? I doubt that. It was the quick access to assault weaponry that helped them in killing dozens of children and adults at various times in the past few years.

So in Orlando incident, was he radicalized yes, absolutely!! But only an investigation will tell in days to come as to why he was pledging allegiance and praising three different terrorist schools of thoughts as that's very abnormal by itself. People with these crazy affiliations, don't go to the "other party" as they are so focused and insanely in-depth with the sect / ideology/group they follow.

Another idea is, this was his own act of terror for whatever craziness he was going through as we now know he was mentally challenged and had un-diagnosed bi-polar, even schizophrenia (considering the violence), if they can do a brain autopsy (the size and scans of the brain can show you that). And knowing he'd die, he tried to "glorify" total craziness, stupidity and violence by praising these terrorists from different school of thought as he was really inspired by violence....not religion necessarily although that was the core in all the groups he followed. I am just laying out theories, when the FBI concludes the investigation, we'll all find out.

But irrespective of his brain malfunction and following an insane ideology of ISIS or whoever the f*ck he was following, what made his inhuman and barbaric intentions come true....was primarily the hi-caliber assault rifle.

A Pistol would've killed a few people too, but it would've been over come much quicker by the locals and police. Also, remember, a Pistol's bullet doesn't necessarily means someone dies right away (unless a trained SF guy is shooting, which this guy was not). So if he only had access to one or two Pistols, you'd have more injured then dead. AR-15's high velocity and hi-caliber bullet would tear a lot of stuff open and as a result, left so many dead. That's the main issue here. May be its time we stopped the assault carbines from being SO readily available!! And have a stricter process for people to go through before getting an assault, war machine that can be so deadly that it can kill dozens of children at school or 50 in a night club in a matter of little time?

And on the part of your post about Iraq and ISIS. To be frank, F**k Iraq and ISIS, we live in the United States of America, not effing Iraq. I am more concerned about the safety of our American brothers and sisters, our own families, your, Gambit's families, than these savages who somehow think killing others is f**king fun or part of their religion which its not. Its crazy to see billions poured into creating these religious monsters to support Wahabi Islam for KSA, and how its damaging the globe (when this Wahabi Islam doesn't match up with real Islamic teachings)!!

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## IceCold

gambit said:


> Am not going to babysit you.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_United_States

When you claim something, the burden of proof lies upon you to back it up. As for the source well it clearly states that 

The following persons are eligible to possess and own firearms within the United States:[16]


*US citizens*
*permanent resident aliens*
Now the first two are interesting because apparently If he is US citizen he can get a weapon it does not matter if he is delusional, depressed, bipolar, schizophrenia or whatever name you want to give him. So much for the law. Moreover it says that

Federal Firearms Act of 1938 ("FFA"): Requires that gun manufacturers, importers, and persons in the business of selling firearms have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). Prohibits the transfer of firearms to certain classes of persons, such as convicted felons.
 Now the question arises what about people who were or are under FBI watch list like this guy who was questioned both in 2013 and 2014? 

Another important bit

Federal Assault Weapons Ban (1994–2004): Banned semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices. *The law expired in 2004*.
No wonder why americans find it easy to get an assault weapon again a case in point the attack in Orlando. 



> That is terribly poor critical thinking skill. Sorry to say it. Just because no gangs were reported in Sandy Hook school shooting, that mean on gangs and guns exists ?
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/fullpage/chicago-gang-violence-numbers-17509042
> 
> And people on this forum says Americans are stupid.



Say what ever you want but it remains a fact that Gangs or no gangs Individual are involved which have no relation or affiliation with any Gang. You made it look as if gun violence is something done by gangs alone which is not the case as evident from these repeated mass shootings. 




> You are seriously confused between 'excuse' and 'cause'.



Am I or are you the one who is being delusional here. what is it going to take for you to call a spade a spade? Seriously your expertise are in radars it would better if you stick to that. 



> Here is the reality...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old argument of 'guns do not kill people, people kill people' holds true. But when it comes to the US, logic and reasoning are flushed down the toilet.



Let me tell you what it the reality, the reality is that 50 men lost their lives while more than 50 are critically injured all AMERICANS. You should be worried about them rather comparing apples with oranges here. People kill people but it becomes all the more easy when you have means to do that and your constitution protects it.


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## gambit

Sinan said:


> No, i shoot with G3 during my military service.


The G3 is an automatic. Like I said earlier, the requirements to own a fully automatic weapon is so onerous that most American gun owners do not bother with it.



Sinan said:


> Yet you still say, hand gun and rifle is the same thing....


That is a lie. I never said such thing. What you did is dishonest and is fully expected. What I said was the operation of semi-auto between the pistol and the AR-15 is the same. That is not saying a pistol and a rifle are the same thing. But I fully expect such dishonest debating tactic with people like you. I had yrs of that on this forum.



Sinan said:


> Yeah, with that logic, a person can kill other with his fists, will you ban fists ?


Am asking if you agree with the UK doctors who now want to ban certain kitchen knives base on design. Do you agree ?



Sinan said:


> I'm saying guns are the issue.


And you are wrong. Simple as that.

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## Sliver

The BBC world report today on the NPR radio (tuesday, June 14 2016) says the number of killed is 49. just updating the people in here.


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## iPhone

New reports are saying he used to frequent the same gay club. Yo, I knew he was gay. No wonder his marriage with a female companion didn't work out. 

He had homosexual tendencies but was probably angry at himself for having those as he's suppose to be a tough afghan man.

And the night of the shooting that gay rage erupted and the results are in front of us.


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## Viper0011.

gambit said:


> You are talking to someone who owns three firearms: Steyr M40 pistol, Noveske AR-15, and a DSA FAL 308.



And you may be talking to someone who may have more toys then you listed Gambit. I don't think you read my first post. Till day before yesterday, I felt, believed and acted exactly like you are today.

However, when I saw these suffering people and the pain and the loss of life right here in front of me (I went to the closest hospital for blood donations, etc in Orlando as I was visiting a friend for the weekend), it changed my entire thought process. I am a big believer in our second amendment.

But like I said, I don't think the forefathers were testing out an AR-15 or an AK-47 when they were writing the second amendment and nor did that stuff exist back then!! This problem has multiple faces, terrorism is obviously one but looking at the previous mass shootings (schools, churches, etc), having access to hi-caliber firearms is also another arm of this issue.

A hollow point on a .45 is MUCH less deadlier than an AR-15. I think this statement alone should tell you I am not looking at the pictures of these guns and writing these posts. An AR-15's 5. round does a LOT more damage than 9MM or .45 etc. I think .45 hollow point and shot guns are good for home defense or self defense and they can be available like they are right now. But the higher caliber should have a stricter process, a longer FBI check with mental health data combined, terrorist links checked, etc, before a deadly assault rifle is given to someone. We are just talking about avoiding more incidents like these, or LIMITING the damage. I would rather see 80 injured who'd recover because this bast*ard used a 9MM or a .45 pistol than 50 dead and 30 injured. That's just freaking crazy if you think about the loss of human life!! We are the most civil and sophisticated society. We know better and we can save our citizens better. That's all I am saying. And we can do this WHILE we have the second amendment in-tact. Restriction on caliber or refusal to give a gun to a crazy bi-polar doesn't mean the second amendment is being breached. It means we are avoiding highly crazy individuals to not have access to these deadly weapons!!


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## livingdead

gambit said:


> The G3 is an automatic. Like I said earlier, the requirements to own a fully automatic weapon is so onerous that most American gun owners do not bother with it.
> 
> 
> That is a lie. I never said such thing. What you did is dishonest and is fully expected. What I said was the operation of semi-auto between the pistol and the AR-15 is the same. That is not saying a pistol and a rifle are the same thing. But I fully expect such dishonest debating tactic with people like you. I had yrs of that on this forum.
> 
> 
> Am asking if you agree with the UK doctors who now want to ban certain kitchen knives base on design. Do you agree ?
> 
> 
> And you are wrong. Simple as that.


its upto americans to decide what level of violence is acceptable. Americans need to compromise on either gun ownership, or more intrusive govt or occasional mass killing. Comparing a developed country like US with el salvador is unfair. You need to compare it with countries with similar economic/social status.


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## gambit

IceCold said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_United_States
> 
> When you claim something, the burden of proof lies upon you to back it up.


The amount of gun laws, federal and states, would overwhelm this discussion.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/how-many-gun-laws-are-there-study-disputes-20000-number

You expect me to research them all, even if not 20,000 ?



IceCold said:


> Now the first two are interesting because apparently If he is US citizen he can get a weapon it does not matter if he is delusional, depressed, bipolar, schizophrenia or whatever name you want to give him. So much for the law.


So how many in *YOUR* neighborhood that you know for certain have mental health issues ?



IceCold said:


> No wonder why americans find it easy to get an assault weapon again a case in point the attack in Orlando.


What was the assault weapon in the Pulse nightclub shooting ? Care to specify ?



IceCold said:


> Say what ever you want but it remains a fact that Gangs or no gangs Individual are involved which have no relation or affiliation with any Gang. *You made it look as if gun violence is something done by gangs alone* which is not the case as evident from these repeated mass shootings.


Another dishonest one who put words in my mouth. Am not surprise at all. That kind of dishonest debating seems to be typical of your people, eh ?

Nowhere did I said that gun violence came from gangs *ALONE*. I challenge you to show everyone that post, liar. And yes, I just called you a liar. If you managed to show the readers where I said that, I will publicly apologize and withdraw from this discussion.

What I said was gun related violence was overwhelmingly *GANG RELATED*. Far different from *GANGS ALONE*. Are you able to see the conceptual difference ?



IceCold said:


> Am I or are you the one who is being delusional here. what is it going to take for you to call a spade a spade? *Seriously your expertise are in radars it would better if you stick to that.*


Then unless you have lived for yrs in the US and is deep into American culture, I suggest you keep to Pakistani issues, eh ? Seems to me you should stay out of debating as well since you proved to be willing to put words in my mouth.



Viper0011. said:


> And you may be talking to someone who may have more toys then you listed Gambit.


Then walk the talk and give up your guns.


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## livingdead

iPhone said:


> New reports are saying he used to frequent the same gay club. Yo, I knew he was gay. No wonder his marriage with a female companion didn't work out.
> 
> He had homosexual tendencies but was probably angry at himself for having those as he's suppose to be a tough afghan man.
> 
> And the night of the shooting that gay rage erupted and the results are in front of us.


gay rage? is that a thing?


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## gambit

hinduguy said:


> its upto americans to decide what level of violence is acceptable. Americans need to compromise on either gun ownership, or more intrusive govt or occasional mass killing. Comparing a developed country like US with el salvador is unfair. You need to compare it with countries with similar economic/social status.


Ah...So now you are saying that it is people that kills people. Not guns. Thanks.

It is not 'unfair' to compare US, a developed country, to El Salvador. The vast majority of US gun owners are responsible and law abiding. If a place of business post that they do not want guns on premise, the law abiding gun owner will respect that. Criminals will not. So if a less developed country that have restrictive gun laws but higher violent crime rates, what does that tell you about US ?

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## iPhone

hinduguy said:


> gay rage? is that a thing?


Lol sorry, in the homosexual community, it is


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## Red-Bull

hinduguy said:


> gay rage? is that a thing?


maybe he was conflicted about his inner gay and religious self, in the end his religious side... overcompensated ?


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## Viper0011.

gambit said:


> Then walk the talk and give up your guns.



LOL, I don't think the debate is for "let's take all the guns away". There is a common sense approach to it. Why would I sit on a branch when someone is cutting it in front of me (or can cut it)?? Same is the logic, extended background and mental health checks for combat / assault rifles. And the shot guns and Pistols / Revolvers should be available as is.

And if there is a need for me to go through an extended background check to keep my guns belonging to me, I am open to it. But in this recent case, I bet you, if an extended check was performed, this moron would've walked away with a pistol and they would've refused to sell the AR per FBI's info back to the shop, or would've kept it for a month until all clear was given. None of this would've resulted in violating the second amendment.


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## Red-Bull

they've deleted my post here but there is a good article by Majid Nawaz (ex extremist) on the daily beast, people should check it out.


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## IceCold

gambit said:


> The amount of gun laws, federal and states, would overwhelm this discussion.
> 
> http://cnsnews.com/news/article/how-many-gun-laws-are-there-study-disputes-20000-number
> 
> You expect me to research them all, even if not 20,000 ?
> 
> 
> So how many in *YOUR* neighborhood that you know for certain have mental health issues ?
> 
> 
> What was the assault weapon in the Pulse nightclub shooting ? Care to specify ?
> 
> 
> Another dishonest one who put words in my mouth. Am not surprise at all. That kind of dishonest debating seems to be typical of your people, eh ?
> 
> Nowhere did I said that gun violence came from gangs *ALONE*. I challenge you to show everyone that post, liar. And yes, I just called you a liar. If you managed to show the readers where I said that, I will publicly apologize and withdraw from this discussion.
> 
> What I said was gun related violence was overwhelmingly *GANG RELATED*. Far different from *GANGS ALONE*. Are you able to see the conceptual difference ?
> 
> 
> Then unless you have lived for yrs in the US and is deep into American culture, I suggest you keep to Pakistani issues, eh ? Seems to me you should stay out of debating as well since you proved to be willing to put words in my mouth.
> .



Looks like i have touched a nerve here. Calm down old man, no need to get over hyped up. I am not putting words into your mouth nor do i have a habit of that. You brought gang members into the debate and affiliated violence with them. My original post was only related to bringing Islam and Muslim community as a whole and then you brought all sort of other arguments with personal insults because you could not answer it. 
I would mind my own business and remain associated with Pakistan but than again My Father was US green card holder and i still have family members there, so yeah i do care about what happens in the US and how muslim community in general gets affected by that.


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## livingdead

gambit said:


> Ah...So now you are saying that it is people that kills people. Not guns. Thanks.
> 
> It is not 'unfair' to compare US, a developed country, to El Salvador. The vast majority of US gun owners are responsible and law abiding. If a place of business post that they do not want guns on premise, the law abiding gun owner will respect that. Criminals will not. So if a less developed country that have restrictive gun laws but higher violent crime rates, what does that tell you about US ?


a less developed country that is torn apart by drug war? I mean will you compare US with iraq or afganistan just because these two countries might have strict gun laws? Its an abuse of statistics if anything.
Guns are not conscious entity and need some actor to operate, whoever operates it(human, chimp, dolphin?) are responsible for it, that goes without saying. I was simply suggesting its more or less expected to have mass shooting every now and then, and as long as citizen of USA are okey with it(and think it as acceptable risk for a greater goal), I see no problem. This is what democracy is all about.
I find it weird when people express shock and outrage at mass shooting, you give guns to ordinary Indians, you will probably see more mass shooting than americans...


----------



## gambit

IceCold said:


> Looks like i have touched a nerve here. Calm down old man, no need to get over hyped up. I am not putting words into your mouth nor do i have a habit of that. You brought gang members into the debate and affiliated violence with them. My original post was only related to bringing Islam and Muslim community as a whole and then you brought all sort of other arguments with personal insults because you could not answer it.


You said...



> You made it look as if gun violence is something done by *gangs alone*...
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/florida-...d-and-53-injured.434579/page-32#ixzz4BZ7pC7VH


Now prove it. Show the readers where I use those words, liar.

What you did was dishonest and despicable, but fully expected based on my yrs of being in this forum. When it comes to the American members here, I do not expect intellectual honesty from any camp, and you just further confirmed the nature of this forum.

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## Anubis

The guy was gay.....Bill Maher once said that many of these home grown terrorists do it out of guilt...remember how the 911 fuckers ordered prostitutes in their hotel room...they do the things that they find in the free world...and then they feel guilty because the big guy in the sky is watching and then they go on holy war. Fuckwits!


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## iPhone

What straight guy takes selfies of himself with duck lips? That's just gay.

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## IceCold

gambit said:


> You said...
> 
> 
> Now prove it. Show the readers where I use those words, liar.
> 
> What you did was dishonest and despicable, but fully expected based on my yrs of being in this forum. When it comes to the American members here, I do not expect intellectual honesty from any camp, and you just further confirmed the nature of this forum.



Was it not you who brought Gang violence into the argument? And you used the word overwhelmingly. Here



gambit said:


> But the statistics do not bear this out.
> 
> *For starter, gun related violence are overwhelmingly gang related*. Then there is suicide by guns,



And then you brought suicide and all sorts of nonsensical argument and when i challenged it now you call me a liar? I never said you said that all i said was you made it look as it is? The above does make it look like when you use the word overwhelmingly to describe something. You are just nitpicking on my post and beating around the bush. Everything else you deliberately chose to ignore.
As for your time here If you are so pissed off from this forum why are you here? Why dont you quit see if anybody gives a damn. Why being a hypocrite and continue to clinch on to here? And yeah dont let the door hit you on your way out.
Seriously i believed you are an intellectual individual but you proved me wrong and i have lost all respect for you. You are nothing more than a delusional old fool who glorifies on copy pasting articles and calls himself an expert.


----------



## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> That is a lie.* I never said such thing. *What you did is dishonest and is fully expected. What I said was the operation of semi-auto between the pistol and the AR-15 is the same. That is not saying a pistol and a rifle are the same thing. But I fully expect such dishonest debating tactic with people like you. I had yrs of that on this forum.



Really ?



gambit said:


> In a crowd and when the people in this crowd is in close proximity to each other, like a nightclub/bar setting, *an amateur can do the same damage with a pistol as he could with a semi-auto like an AR-15*.



Who is the "intellectually dishonest" now ?



gambit said:


> Am asking if you agree with the UK doctors who now want to ban certain kitchen knives base on design. Do you agree ?



They are saying based on what ? If some certain kitchen knives do more damage to humans when stabbed...and if other kitchen knives would still do the cooking job....Yes, i see nothing wrong. They can ban.



gambit said:


> And you are wrong. Simple as that.



I'm wrong from *your point of view.*


----------



## Desert Fox

Anubis said:


> The guy was gay.....Bill Maher once said that many of these home grown terrorists do it out of guilt...remember how the 911 fuckers ordered prostitutes in their hotel room...they do the things that they find in the free world...and then they feel guilty because the big guy in the sky is watching and then they go on holy war. Fuckwits!


That's why its very hard to catch these people because one day they are extremely liberal: they go partying/clubbing, dating girls, drinking alcohol, sleeping around and then the next day they feel guilty about it and become extremely religious overnight and become extremists.

This is a pattern observed in most of the Islamic terrorists in the West. 

This is why its hard to arrest these people because one can't just arrest someone over suspicion as that would be "racial profiling" and "institutional racism" etc.. The usual Liberal jargon.

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## Solomon2

Anubis said:


> The guy was gay.....Bill Maher once said that many of these home grown terrorists do it out of guilt...








So as a gay Muslim his only way to Paradise was to die in a battle to kill as many gay non-Muslims as possible?

But why would a gay Muslim be interested in seventy virgins?


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## Anubis

Solomon2 said:


> So as a gay Muslim his only way to Paradise was to die in a battle to kill as many gay non-Muslims as possible?
> 
> But why would a gay Muslim be interested in seventy virgins?


This is what I was talking about earlier....monitor the mosques and madrasas...how is this guy not been picked up by the FBI??
Nowhere does it say that the 70 virgins will be women...imagine a terrorist going to heaven and finding out 70 catholic priests waiting or them.


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## livingdead

Anubis said:


> This is what I was talking about earlier....monitor the mosques and madrasas...how is this guy not been picked up by the FBI??
> Nowhere does it say that the 70 virgins will be women...imagine a terrorist going to heaven and finding out 70 catholic priests waiting or them.


catholic priests dont go to muslim heaven...

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## iPhone

Solomon2 said:


> So as a gay Muslim his only way to Paradise was to die in a battle to kill as many gay non-Muslims as possible?
> 
> But why would a gay Muslim be interested in seventy virgins?


Seventy gay *** virgins?

I wonder how ISIS feels now that one of their fighters turned to be a homosexual. They quickly owned him as their own without realizing lol. But then again who knows how many gay men are fighting in their ranks already.

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## boomslang

Wouldn't you think that in light of this massacre that Obama would stop letting in unknown Syrian 'refugees' ( a lot of military aged guys in those pics)? NAH !!!

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## gambit

IceCold said:


> Was it not you who brought Gang violence into the argument?


Because people seems to think that mass shootings like this and the Sandy Hook school constitutes the bulk of gun related violence in America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States


> Gun violence is most common in poor urban areas and frequently associated with gang violence, often involving male juveniles or young adult males.[13][14] *Although mass shootings have been covered extensively in the media, mass shootings account for a small fraction of gun-related deaths*[9] and the frequency of these events steadily declined between 1994 and 2007, rising between 2007 and 2013.


This information is not new. And it is intellectually dishonest to ignore this when gang related violence, suicides, and mass shootings contributes to the overall figure.



IceCold said:


> And you used the word overwhelmingly.


So to you, 'overwhelmingly' = 'alone'.

Somebody contact the dictionary makers.



IceCold said:


> And then you brought suicide and all sorts of nonsensical argument and when i challenged it now you call me a liar?


I called you a liar because you cannot prove that I said gun related violence came from gang *ALONE*.



IceCold said:


> Seriously i believed you are an intellectual individual but you proved me wrong and i have lost all respect for you.


Your respect is meaningless to me. You are nothing but an anonymous handle on the Internet. As such, it is the *CONTENTS* of your posts that matters. But when *YOU* have to resort to putting words into my (virtual) mouth, that reveals more of your intelligence than of mine.



IceCold said:


> You are nothing more than a delusional old fool who glorifies on copy pasting articles and calls himself an expert.


For all the yrs I have been on this forum, it is an extreme that I would comment about anything Pakistani outside of the military. I may touch a little on the religious aspects of Pakistani society, but even that is rare, and forum old timers know that. On the other hand, people like you who have very little or no experience about America and Americans have no problems injecting your ignorant 'opinions' and it is *YOU* who copied/pasted his way into being an 'expert' on America.

You want to see delusional ? Go look in the mirror.

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## Thorough Pro

Neither am I, just wanted to point out the obvious error in your post



gambit said:


> I am not interested in getting into a theological debate about Islam and its texts. You know exactly what I meant.


----------



## Viper0011.

gambit said:


> On the other hand, people like you who have very little or no experience about America and Americans have no problems injecting your ignorant 'opinions' and it is *YOU* who copied/pasted his way into being an 'expert' on America.



I agree with you 200% on the above. There is a LOT of that on this forum. Folks have no understanding about our system. But they write like their generations have lived, worked and done strategy for our institutions. Its actually gets pretty hilarious at times


----------



## gambit

Sinan said:


> Really ?
> 
> Who is the "intellectually dishonest" now ?


*YOU* are. Still.

The highlighted is nothing like what you claimed I said. For someone who claimed to have military service with a weapon that is fully automatic, if you had to strain what I said...

" *an amateur can do the same damage with a pistol as he could with a semi-auto like an AR-15*. "

...To mean that pistol = rifle, either you have never shoot that G3 like you claimed, or that you have a dishonest agenda about my posts in this discussion.



Sinan said:


> They are saying based on what ? If some certain kitchen knives do more damage to humans when stabbed...and if other kitchen knives would still do the cooking job....Yes, i see nothing wrong. They can ban.


Good, then we should ban some cars next. What useful purpose does a Ferrari have ?

I do not believe you are serious about banning some designs of knives. You said the above because what the UK doctors wanted put you into a philosophical bind. You have consistently argued that banning a tool would solve a problem, and said very little about the human factor of the problem. You did not know what the UK doctors want so now you are in the proverbial 'slippery slope' dilemma. Knives, cars, what next ?



Sinan said:


> I'm wrong from *your point of view.*


You might want to consider the possibility that my point of view is the correct one.


----------



## Water Car Engineer

boomslang said:


> Wouldn't you think that in light of this massacre that Obama would stop letting in unknown Syrian 'refugees' ( a lot of military aged guys in those pics)? NAH !!!




Policy makers in Europe and US are really unbelievable.


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## gambit

Here is a 'guide' to weapons to make life simple for everyone...

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## Viper0011.

gambit said:


> Here is a 'guide' to weapons to make life simple for everyone...



Did you do this yourself?  Its hilarious but good work. Never seen a vehicle called an AR-15


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## gambit

Viper0011. said:


> Did you do this yourself?  Its hilarious but good work. Never seen a vehicle called an AR-15


A gunowner and Afghan veteran friend sent it to me. It says much about the ignorance and knee jerk responses most people have about guns.

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## Solomon2

Falcon29 said:


> Muslims don't need Islam. I don't know why you're so adamant in insisting that. Christians and Jews don't need Christianity, but they still identify with those religions, due to material, societal and personal benefits those religions bring. If you want an example, look at the Jewish people. They know their religion is man-made, but they need to make claims to Israel. They also need it to influence the followers of Christianity. They also need it to make for a distinct heritage. Those are just some examples. I don't agree with this approach, and I would prefer there is no religion at all. Since I'm well informed, able to critically think and realize that people know religion is man made but use it to their benefit, overwhelmingly in negative ways.
> 
> I don't agree about singling out Muslims and attacking them, I made that clear in my long post in this thread. It seems people are simply not able to do basic comprehension, or they ignore the legitimate points I made. In short, I said Muslims are singled out in attacks on religion, because the other two religions have been dumbed down into something they never were, which gives them credibility to attack Islam.



*75 years later on, the motives behind the pogroms on Baghdad's Jews are the same as the Sarona Market and Orlando attacks: murderous hatred*

Published: 06.13.16, 23:31 / Israel Opinion


It happens again and again. Last week at Sarona Market, Saturday in Orlando, and exactly 75 years ago, June 1941, during the Shavuot holiday, in Baghdad, Iraq, when a mob set out on a pogrom against the Jews. Some 180 Jews were murdered in the "Farhud," the Iraqi version of Kristallnacht. That isn't a mistake. It was a night of bloodshed preceded by Nazi propaganda directed by the German ambassador in Baghdad, Dr. Fritz Grobba.


Iraq was in those days an independent country. Grobba's influence on the local elite was large. Inter alia, he sent delegations to Berlin, bought a newspaper and took pains to publish therein Hitler's Mein Kampf in installments. The hatred of Jews was not because of Zionism. The majority of Iraq's Jews were not then Zionists. They were, precisely like the Jews of Germany, part of the backbone of the economy, development and progress. During those years, Grobba ensured a steady and virulent drip of anti-Semitic Nazi propaganda. The drip worked: The government took a series of steps against Jews, and their situation worsened.


Later, after having successfully spread the al-Aqsa plot hoaxthroughout Palestine and after getting into trouble with the British Mandate authorities, the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, came to Baghdad and added fuel to the fire. Two months before the Farhud, a pro-Nazi coup took place in Iraq, headed by Rashid Ali al-Gaylani. The Second World War was at its height, and the British were advancing on Baghdad. Al-Gaylani and the mufti, the largest inciters, fled to Berlin, where they were received as heroes. The two left the massacre of the Jews of Baghdad to the incited local crowd.





*Mourners in San Francisco following Orlando shooting (Photo: AFP)*


Certain anti-Zionist Jews try to cultivate the legend of the Farhud pogroms as being the result of Arab fears of the Zionist enterprise. These people have made the justification for Arab anti-Semitism and terrorism their life's work. They want to see that revolution as a sort of opposition to colonialism and Zionism. Seventy-five years have passed, and the terrorist attack at Sarona Market is also receiving justifications. It isn't incitement, some are trying to tell us, it's opposition to the occupation.


As long as these were the fringe of the fringe—so be it. Such hallucinatory phenomena have always existed. But last week, Tel Aviv Mayor Ron Huldai himself tried to explain that Israel was to blame for the Sarona attack. Until larger attacks happen, he added, Israelis won't understand. What won't they understand? That we must end the occupation.






*Mourners in Tel Aviv following Sarona Market attack (Photo: Reuters)*


Huldai "transformed" the murderers who came to Tel Aviv to peace activists. They didn't know that they were, but Huldai knows. Yes, Israel offered the Palestinians a state; yes, they rejected Barak's offer at Camp, Clinton's deal in 2000, and two drafts by John Kerry in 2014, but Huldai blames Israel. Huldai, not the regular loathsome anti-Zionists to whose grating voices we have become accustomed.


This time, it's the person who is a potential candidate for the leadership of the Labor party. We can assume that the mayor of Orlando will not tell the people of his city that they deserved it, and that it's because of the American occupation in Iraq. He also won't tell them that Americans deserve a much more serious attack so that they can understand the attackers' motives.





*Tel Aviv Mayor Ron Huldai*

Seventy-five years separate the attack in Baghdad from the attacks in Sarona and Orlando. It didn't happen then for freedom and liberation, and today it didn't happen to promote freedom and liberation. Then and now, they were murderous hate crimes.


When I heard about Huldai, if I may admit, I felt a pang in my heart. Palestinians deserve freedom and self-determination. The current government is bad for Israel, and we should replace it. But when Huldai and those like him who understand and justify terrorism are the alternative, then the right will remain in power forever.


----------



## Desert Fox

boomslang said:


> Wouldn't you think that in light of this massacre that Obama would stop letting in unknown Syrian 'refugees' ( a lot of military aged guys in those pics)? NAH !!!


The Democrats want the best of both worlds: they want the gays and the Syrian refugees under one roof.


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## gambit

Some facts for those who lack critical thinking skills...








Thorough Pro said:


> Neither am I, just wanted to point out the obvious error in your post


A minor one. You have a sacred text, the Quran. Then after the Quran came a string of commentaries from respected religious leaders for about 1400 yrs. Some of those commentaries are more important than others. Americans do not care what you guys call those texts.

My point is that just as the Muslims insists that non-Muslims take into considerations everything associated with the Muslims' faith, we Americans insists that if non-Americans want to talk about the US legal system, have ready our secular sacred text -- the US Constitution, and along with it, a string of commentaries, from respected secular priests of American democracy, such as The Federalist Papers or Democracy In America. Whatever you want to call them is irrelevant to us just as long as you have them on hand if you want to debate Americans about America.


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## Kaniska

At one point of time, US has to think about its immigration process...What kind of people are entering to the country...


----------



## -SINAN-

Are you an ex-military or police officer ?



gambit said:


> *YOU* are. Still.
> 
> The highlighted is nothing like what you claimed I said. For someone who claimed to have military service with a weapon that is fully automatic, if you had to strain what I said...
> 
> " *an amateur can do the same damage with a pistol as he could with a semi-auto like an AR-15*. "
> 
> ...To mean that pistol = rifle, either you have never shoot that G3 like you claimed, or that you have a dishonest agenda about my posts in this discussion.


1-) Military service is compulsive in Turkey, meaning every adult male citizen of Turkey is able to use assault weapons.

2-) A rifle has so much power when compared to a pistol. I think, you know this. While a pistols bullet will kill or wound one person at a time. A rifle's single bullet will able to kill more person, all it's more fatal to human body. Hence you can do more damage with a rifle comparing to the damage of a pistol.

I think, you know this but you are trying to load different meanings to my posts, accuse me of being dishonest.



gambit said:


> Good, then we should ban some cars next. What useful purpose does a Ferrari have ?
> 
> I do not believe you are serious about banning some designs of knives. You said the above because what the UK doctors wanted put you into a philosophical bind. You have consistently argued that banning a tool would solve a problem, and said very little about the human factor of the problem. You did not know what the UK doctors want so now you are in the proverbial 'slippery slope' dilemma. Knives, cars, what next ?



I'm not in a dilemma. Yes, i didn't know "what the UK doctors want"...so i said "_If some certain kitchen knives do more damage to humans when stabbed...and if other kitchen knives would still do the cooking job."
_
So, i stand behind, what i have said.

Also, "banning of the cars" example, is not a good example.

Let me give you one;
_
If doctors of the UK wants to change the design of the bumpers of some cars as it would do more damage to pedestrians in an accident. _Yes, i would support that too.




gambit said:


> You might want to consider the possibility that my point of view is the correct one.



Same goes for you as well.



gambit said:


> Some facts for those who lack critical thinking skills...



This is a gross way of thinking for rationalizing the death of an innocent soul whom has been killed in a barbaric way. Who ever made this chart, is not respecting human life.


----------



## IceCold

gambit said:


> Because people seems to think that mass shootings like this and the Sandy Hook school constitutes the bulk of gun related violence in America.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States
> 
> This information is not new. And it is intellectually dishonest to ignore this when gang related violence, suicides, and mass shootings contributes to the overall figure.
> 
> 
> So to you, 'overwhelmingly' = 'alone'.
> 
> Somebody contact the dictionary makers.
> 
> 
> I called you a liar because you cannot prove that I said gun related violence came from gang *ALONE*.
> 
> 
> Your respect is meaningless to me. You are nothing but an anonymous handle on the Internet. As such, it is the *CONTENTS* of your posts that matters. But when *YOU* have to resort to putting words into my (virtual) mouth, that reveals more of your intelligence than of mine.
> 
> 
> For all the yrs I have been on this forum, it is an extreme that I would comment about anything Pakistani outside of the military. I may touch a little on the religious aspects of Pakistani society, but even that is rare, and forum old timers know that. On the other hand, people like you who have very little or no experience about America and Americans have no problems injecting your ignorant 'opinions' and it is *YOU* who copied/pasted his way into being an 'expert' on America.
> 
> You want to see delusional ? Go look in the mirror.



Nothing but more rant from an old fool and a hypocrite. The only one deceiving here is you. First you say gun violence is* overwhelmingly *gang related and when others challenge your claim you start calling them liars. Now dont waste my time, i am not interested in going in circles with you.


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## gambit

IceCold said:


> Nothing but more rant from an old fool and a hypocrite. The only one deceiving here is you. First you say gun violence is* overwhelmingly *gang related and when others challenge your claim you start calling them liars. Now dont waste my time, i am not interested in going in circles with you.


You did not challenged my claim. You put words in my mouth. And what I said is *FACTUALLY* correct.

What make a 'developed' country ? A major component of what is a 'developed' country is the ability and willingness to quantify anything possible. What state/province grows what crops ? Consume how much coal ? Ship how many tonnage of goods ? Use how much concrete ? And so on...

Guns, their effects, and their results are no different. In the US, not only the government but universities, think tanks, and newspapers did their best to quantify how many guns are sold, destroyed, or used in any way, whether it is a commission of a crime or in self defense.

So let us take a look at this chart again, shall we ?






We have murders, which can come from running someone over with a car, use a knife to stab, or bludgeoning someone to death. There are many ways to kill someone without using a gun. So out of the total deaths in the US, 0.6% were murders. Of that 0.6% a tiny sliver of 0.2% is mass shootings. Rule out suicides by guns, what else can it be but from gang related killings that involved guns ?

Is this chain of reasoning too complex for you ? It should not. After all, I am an American so by default, I must be of inferior intelligence to the rest of the world, no ? So if I can finger this out, why not you ?

You said this...



> You made it look *as if gun violence is something done by gangs alone* which is not the case as evident from these repeated mass shootings.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/florida-...d-and-53-injured.434579/page-32#ixzz4BdWmH2yC


What I said was...



> For starter, gun related violence are overwhelmingly gang related.
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/florida-...d-and-53-injured.434579/page-31#ixzz4BdX3VLLM


We both used the words 'gun violence' to mean *ALL* violence that involves guns. Not just mass shootings or suicides or accidental discharges or murders or gang related. The words 'gun violence' means in general and *ALL* of those things.

So when I said that in America, gun violence is overwhelmingly gang related is factually correct, backed up statistics collected by various groups other than the government throughout decades.

Overwhelming does not mean alone.

What you claimed I said was wrong and that made you correctly -- a liar.


----------



## HeinzG

Anubis said:


> The guy was gay.....Bill Maher once said that many of these home grown terrorists do it out of guilt...remember how the 911 fuckers ordered prostitutes in their hotel room...they do the things that they find in the free world...and then they feel guilty because the big guy in the sky is watching and then they go on holy war. Fuckwits!



Then you people should do something about these people, they are defaming your religion.


----------



## -SINAN-

gambit said:


> You did not challenged my claim. You put words in my mouth. And what I said is *FACTUALLY* correct.
> 
> What make a 'developed' country ? A major component of what is a 'developed' country is the ability and willingness to quantify anything possible. What state/province grows what crops ? Consume how much coal ? Ship how many tonnage of goods ? Use how much concrete ? And so on...
> 
> Guns, their effects, and their results are no different. In the US, not only the government but universities, think tanks, and newspapers did their best to quantify how many guns are sold, destroyed, or used in any way, whether it is a commission of a crime or in self defense.
> 
> So let us take a look at this chart again, shall we ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have murders, which can come from running someone over with a car, use a knife to stab, or bludgeoning someone to death. There are many ways to kill someone without using a gun. So out of the total deaths in the US, 0.6% were murders. Of that 0.6% a tiny sliver of 0.2% is mass shootings. Rule out suicides by guns, what else can it be but from gang related killings that involved guns ?
> 
> Is this chain of reasoning too complex for you ? It should not. After all, I am an American so by default, I must be of inferior intelligence to the rest of the world, no ? So if I can finger this out, why not you ?
> 
> You said this...
> 
> 
> What I said was...
> 
> 
> We both used the words 'gun violence' to mean *ALL* violence that involves guns. Not just mass shootings or suicides or accidental discharges or murders or gang related. The words 'gun violence' means in general and *ALL* of those things.
> 
> So when I said that in America, gun violence is overwhelmingly gang related is factually correct, backed up statistics collected by various groups other than the government throughout decades.
> 
> Overwhelming does not mean alone.
> 
> What you claimed I said was wrong and that made you correctly -- a liar.



Lol, thanks for letting me go of the hook. I was not really into a debate. Hope, we can meet and debate in the future about a subject that we are both into.


----------



## temporary12345

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/nati...talk-Omar-Mateen-out-of-attack-382958401.html

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/nat...cle_8494b38e-60c0-5060-9603-8c30656caffe.html


I wonder how the conversation would have proceeded:

Omar: Honey would you drive me to a Gay club?

Noor: Off course hubby. That what good wives are for: Driving their husband to Gay clubs.

(sometime later)

Omar: Honey, I going to that that gay club again.

Noor: I think that was a one time fling hubby. Don't you love me! Don't you! Don't you! (accompanied by sobbing)

Omar: Honey I love you. I am going back to shoot as many fags as I can. Allahu-akbar.

Noor: Don't do it sugar. We would get into a lot of trouble for this.

Omar: Doesn't matter honey. I have to do this to avenge my beloved goat ,Salma, which was killed in a US drone attack. Allahu-akbar.

Noor: Don't say that I didn't warn you though.


----------



## Solomon2

RULE OF LAW
*Time Is Running Out for American Muslims*




BY J. CHRISTIAN ADAMS JUNE 15, 2016





American Muslims must use the time they have left to unleash a transformation within their community.

The despicable conduct of Omar Mateen’s wife, Noor Zahi Salman, is the latest example. The Orlando shooter's wife allegedly knew of his plan and accompanied him to buy ammunition, yet did nothing to stop him.

Then there was Tashfeen Malik, the obedient jihadist Bonnie Parker, who helped her husband Syed Farook gun down fourteen in San Bernardino.

Days before the killing in Orlando, the Husseini Islamic Center in Sanford, Florida, hosted Sheikh Farrokh Sekaleshfar. The Islamic scholar had previously preached to a crowd of American Muslims in Michigan about gays:



*Death is the sentence. There’s nothing to be embarrassed about this. Death is the sentence*.​
For this? Skaleshfar *earned invitations to speak elsewhere*.

Time is running out for American Muslims. Mainstream America can connect the dots from Skaleshfar’s bloodlust to San Bernardino to Fort Hood to Seattle toGarland to an empty field in Somerset -- and finally to Pulse. All of these murderers thought they were acting according to their professed Islamic faith.


I’ll leave it to others to debate the text of the Koran and what it says or does not say. But American Muslims are running out of time because Americans are running out of patience.

With each new slaughter by a jihadist, the American Muslim community exhausts a bit more patience and goodwill of Americans. No matter how many rainbow-colored burkas are posted on Instagram, or how much rhetoric comes from the diminishing president, the message does not match reality.

Goodwill and mercy is an ablative thing. When jihadist after jihadist destroys our treasured domestic tranquility, they will eventually awaken an American resolve that will sweep away these distractions and confront the problem head-on.

It’s why Donald Trump has tapped into a silent mainstream fury. If the attacks by jihadists continue against innocents, what Donald Trump is proposing might not go far enough to many Americans.

I’m not suggesting this is a good thing. This is merely the human condition. It’s what civilizations have done for thousands of years when faced with similar circumstances.

And contrary to the progressive utopian ideal, history hasn’t stopped.

All of those primal impulses can’t be extracted out by four years of Wellesley and the Sunday _New York Times_, especially when few Americans read the _Times_anymore. Hopefully any response from an exhausted America would manifest itself through law instead of pitchforks. But the American Muslim community needs to understand they lose support with every single attack, until they _do_something about it.

Speaking of Wellesley and the _New York Times_, it’s been predictable and boring to see the enablers attempt to compare the jihadists to Christians. Every religion has its extremists, they tell us:


The truth is that some extremists appear far more prone to act.

The attempt to equate theologies overlooks the importance of mercy in Christianity. Leviticus might say one thing, but Jesus said another.

There’s yet a bigger difference, and one that touches the expanse of the problem for American Muslims. If a series of slaughters were committed by Catholics professing to do so for their faith, I know the response would be quite different. The full evangelizing power of the Catholic Church would be marshaled to clarify the theology and to distance its teachings from the killings.

So far the response from the American Muslim community has been a wee bit of the latter. If the American Muslim community was interested in the _former_?

*They’d stop inviting Sheikh Farrokh Sekaleshfar to speak at mainstream mosques*.

If the American Muslim community was interested in the former, we’d read stories about wives turning in would-be jihadist husbands -- instead of about Noor Salman making an ammo run.

They’d stop doing a lot of things, and start doing many others.

Why did Salman not call the police about her husband? There are only a few possibilities. Perhaps she was all-in on the plot, but only in a supporting role. Perhaps she had a blinding loyalty to her husband. Or perhaps she belongs to a culture of silence that made associating with a jihadist killer preferable to crossing that culture.





Americans can’t help but notice the rapid-response public relations machine that now follows each of these jihadist slaughters.

Does Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR have a black Lincoln with a driver standing by around the clock to rush him to the presser the second the next shooter is pegged as a jihadist? Does President Obama’s press staff have a teleprompter file loaded, ready to load at a moment’s notice with names and places left blank? “Mass_Killing_By_Jihadist_Who_is_Not_a_Jihadist.doc”?

Therein lies the lie. Americans have a deep wellspring of decency. But they also treasure the greatness of this nation that has separated the American experience from all the horrors of history.

Our domestic tranquility might be a higher priority than any other value.

The American Muslim community needs to launch something far bigger, far more effective, and far more theological in response to the slaughters, because time is running out.


----------



## Thorough Pro

Here you go @Solomon2 Pastor Anderson celebrating killing of 50 and showing sadness for killing just 50

















Solomon2 said:


> So as a gay Muslim his only way to Paradise was to die in a battle to kill as many gay non-Muslims as possible?
> 
> But why would a gay Muslim be interested in seventy virgins?


----------



## Solomon2

Thorough Pro said:


> Here you go @Solomon2 Pastor Anderson celebrating killing of 50 and showing sadness for killing just 50


Never heard of him. 

Religion is what you make it. People can take it in part and not in whole, just as you don't have to serve yourself everything from the cafeteria line. A pastor today who trumpets parts of the Bible to promote violence in America is, I think, unlike to reverberate enough to inspire mass violence.


----------



## Thorough Pro

Why are you trying to be defensive and dismissing him? He is a Christian, a Pastor and saying what his religion teaches him about certain behaviours and how they should be dealt with, and that is exactly what the other person was doing in the video you posted. Why do you think one should be criminalized for expressing his religious beliefs and the other one dismissed for doing the same? 



Solomon2 said:


> Never heard of him.
> 
> Religion is what you make it. People can take it in part and not in whole, just as you don't have to serve yourself everything from the cafeteria line. A pastor today who trumpets parts of the Bible to promote violence in America is, I think, unlike to reverberate enough to inspire mass violence.


----------



## bongbang

I think non Muslim gays are good and friendly. Why would Muslims kill them? Gay nations will perish with time by themselves. I agree Muslims should be hard to their own community only.


----------



## Solomon2

Thorough Pro said:


> Why are you trying to be defensive and dismissing him? He is a Christian, a Pastor and saying what his religion teaches him about certain behaviours and how they should be dealt with, and that is exactly what the other person was doing in the video you posted.


If you say so. I'm not a Christian or Muslim and I didn't watch the video.



> Why do you think one should be criminalized for expressing his religious beliefs and the other one dismissed for doing the same?


Did I call for anyone to be "dismissed"? You might be confusing me with someone else.

As for my opinion between the two: the pastor is likely a crank (I'm not watching the video even now) without a following while you can point to the imam as having inspired mass murder. Without the violence, the pastor might merely be guilty of hate speech. The imam, on the other hand, can be considered as having provided the malice behind the attacks and could therefore be judged a party to them.


----------



## Anubis

HeinzG said:


> Then you people should do something about these people, they are defaming your religion.


I dont have a religion.



Solomon2 said:


> RULE OF LAW
> *Time Is Running Out for American Muslims*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BY J. CHRISTIAN ADAMS JUNE 15, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Muslims must use the time they have left to unleash a transformation within their community.
> 
> The despicable conduct of Omar Mateen’s wife, Noor Zahi Salman, is the latest example. The Orlando shooter's wife allegedly knew of his plan and accompanied him to buy ammunition, yet did nothing to stop him.
> 
> Then there was Tashfeen Malik, the obedient jihadist Bonnie Parker, who helped her husband Syed Farook gun down fourteen in San Bernardino.
> 
> Days before the killing in Orlando, the Husseini Islamic Center in Sanford, Florida, hosted Sheikh Farrokh Sekaleshfar. The Islamic scholar had previously preached to a crowd of American Muslims in Michigan about gays:
> 
> 
> 
> *Death is the sentence. There’s nothing to be embarrassed about this. Death is the sentence*.​
> For this? Skaleshfar *earned invitations to speak elsewhere*.
> 
> Time is running out for American Muslims. Mainstream America can connect the dots from Skaleshfar’s bloodlust to San Bernardino to Fort Hood to Seattle toGarland to an empty field in Somerset -- and finally to Pulse. All of these murderers thought they were acting according to their professed Islamic faith.
> 
> 
> I’ll leave it to others to debate the text of the Koran and what it says or does not say. But American Muslims are running out of time because Americans are running out of patience.
> 
> With each new slaughter by a jihadist, the American Muslim community exhausts a bit more patience and goodwill of Americans. No matter how many rainbow-colored burkas are posted on Instagram, or how much rhetoric comes from the diminishing president, the message does not match reality.
> 
> Goodwill and mercy is an ablative thing. When jihadist after jihadist destroys our treasured domestic tranquility, they will eventually awaken an American resolve that will sweep away these distractions and confront the problem head-on.
> 
> It’s why Donald Trump has tapped into a silent mainstream fury. If the attacks by jihadists continue against innocents, what Donald Trump is proposing might not go far enough to many Americans.
> 
> I’m not suggesting this is a good thing. This is merely the human condition. It’s what civilizations have done for thousands of years when faced with similar circumstances.
> 
> And contrary to the progressive utopian ideal, history hasn’t stopped.
> 
> All of those primal impulses can’t be extracted out by four years of Wellesley and the Sunday _New York Times_, especially when few Americans read the _Times_anymore. Hopefully any response from an exhausted America would manifest itself through law instead of pitchforks. But the American Muslim community needs to understand they lose support with every single attack, until they _do_something about it.
> 
> Speaking of Wellesley and the _New York Times_, it’s been predictable and boring to see the enablers attempt to compare the jihadists to Christians. Every religion has its extremists, they tell us:
> 
> 
> The truth is that some extremists appear far more prone to act.
> 
> The attempt to equate theologies overlooks the importance of mercy in Christianity. Leviticus might say one thing, but Jesus said another.
> 
> There’s yet a bigger difference, and one that touches the expanse of the problem for American Muslims. If a series of slaughters were committed by Catholics professing to do so for their faith, I know the response would be quite different. The full evangelizing power of the Catholic Church would be marshaled to clarify the theology and to distance its teachings from the killings.
> 
> So far the response from the American Muslim community has been a wee bit of the latter. If the American Muslim community was interested in the _former_?
> 
> *They’d stop inviting Sheikh Farrokh Sekaleshfar to speak at mainstream mosques*.
> 
> If the American Muslim community was interested in the former, we’d read stories about wives turning in would-be jihadist husbands -- instead of about Noor Salman making an ammo run.
> 
> They’d stop doing a lot of things, and start doing many others.
> 
> Why did Salman not call the police about her husband? There are only a few possibilities. Perhaps she was all-in on the plot, but only in a supporting role. Perhaps she had a blinding loyalty to her husband. Or perhaps she belongs to a culture of silence that made associating with a jihadist killer preferable to crossing that culture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Americans can’t help but notice the rapid-response public relations machine that now follows each of these jihadist slaughters.
> 
> Does Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR have a black Lincoln with a driver standing by around the clock to rush him to the presser the second the next shooter is pegged as a jihadist? Does President Obama’s press staff have a teleprompter file loaded, ready to load at a moment’s notice with names and places left blank? “Mass_Killing_By_Jihadist_Who_is_Not_a_Jihadist.doc”?
> 
> Therein lies the lie. Americans have a deep wellspring of decency. But they also treasure the greatness of this nation that has separated the American experience from all the horrors of history.
> 
> Our domestic tranquility might be a higher priority than any other value.
> 
> The American Muslim community needs to launch something far bigger, far more effective, and far more theological in response to the slaughters, because* time is running out*.


So what is "Christian America" planning to do? Put the muslims in concentration camps?


----------



## Solomon2

Anubis said:


> So what is "Christian America" planning to do? Put the muslims in concentration camps?


My guess? They're waiting, with increasing impatience, to see what Muslims will bring to the table. 

So far it appears Muslim leaders are still following what the Islamic Society of North America enthusiastically endorsed as a "paradigm shift", the script the Saudis drew up at the 2008 Muslim Preparatory Conference on Inter-religious Dialogue: 

Islam is the solution not the blame
Criticism of Islam is a thought crime that establishes "the culture of hatred between peoples" (thus rationalizing the mass murder of non-Muslims by blaming the victims)
Western values are bad
The illegitimate social relationships of gays and lesbians are to be confronted, even if they don't criticize Islam.

Until Muslims confront and break these guidelines I don't see how the situation can improve.


----------



## Anubis

Solomon2 said:


> My guess? They're waiting, with increasing impatience, to see what Muslims will bring to the table.
> 
> So far it appears Muslim leaders are still following what the Islamic Society of North America enthusiastically endorsed as a "paradigm shift", the script the Saudis drew up at the 2008 Muslim Preparatory Conference on Inter-religious Dialogue:
> 
> Islam is the solution not the blame
> Criticism of Islam is a thought crime that establishes "the culture of hatred between peoples" (thus rationalizing the mass murder of non-Muslims by blaming the victims)
> Western values are bad
> The illegitimate social relationships of gays and lesbians are to be confronted, even if they don't criticize Islam.
> 
> Until Muslims confront and break these guidelines I don't see how the situation can improve.


I have issues with this...Neither muslims nor christians in America act like monolithic groups....Most muslims believe the same thing i.e gays are horrible....western culture is decadant etc....but they don't act the same way...living in New York what I've seen is the average Muslim family here is very similar to an orthodox Jewish family(there are probably more muslims than orthodox Jews)....extremely conservative and protective....muslims in america are not a political force(minority muslims never act like political groups)....but the right wing christian rhetoric like..."clock is ticking"..."your time is running out"...which sound like out right threats are going to push muslims into trying to become a political force which will invite wahabi money into american politics and muddle things up even more...I know you are Jewish...but you do know how much influence AIPAC has(whether you support them or not)....now imagine a wahabi money fueled Muslim version of AIPAC....it is gonna get a lot worse....and Christian America is dead....the fore runner of Christian American politics cannot even quote a line from the bible...liberals are larger in number and growing....I doubt it matters what "Christian America(mostly white...mostly southerner) wants to do....the question is what do secular whites....black christians and catholic Latinos want....they are the new powerhouse of American politics.


----------



## livingdead

Solomon2 said:


> My guess? They're waiting, with increasing impatience, to see what Muslims will bring to the table.
> 
> So far it appears Muslim leaders are still following what the Islamic Society of North America enthusiastically endorsed as a "paradigm shift", the script the Saudis drew up at the 2008 Muslim Preparatory Conference on Inter-religious Dialogue:
> 
> Islam is the solution not the blame
> Criticism of Islam is a thought crime that establishes "the culture of hatred between peoples" (thus rationalizing the mass murder of non-Muslims by blaming the victims)
> Western values are bad
> The illegitimate social relationships of gays and lesbians are to be confronted, even if they don't criticize Islam.
> 
> Until Muslims confront and break these guidelines I don't see how the situation can improve.


why are we discussing this attack as muslim issue... investigators are unsure about any link with ISIS.. and new evidence has come to light which might mean it might not be a terror act. may be Obama should apologize for jumping gun.


----------



## Anubis

hinduguy said:


> why are we discussing this attack as muslim issue... investigators are unsure about any link with ISIS.. and new evidence has come to light which might mean it might not be a terror act. may be Obama should apologize for jumping gun.


This guy claimed allegiance to ISIS ,AL Qaueda and Hezbollah...three groups that oppose each other....he was lone wolf.


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## livingdead

Anubis said:


> This guy claimed allegiance to ISIS ,AL Qaueda and Hezbollah...three groups that oppose each other....he was lone wolf.


he can claim allegiance to wall mart, pepsi and microsoft... seems he had no political goal and was driven by personal issues... i dont think one can call him lone wolf as well.. because lone wolf implies operating alone but believing/inspired by/working on a shared agenda.


----------



## Solomon2

Anubis said:


> ...Most muslims believe the same thing i.e gays are horrible....western culture is decadant etc....but they don't act the same way...living in New York what I've seen is the average Muslim family here is very similar to an orthodox Jewish family...


The difference, as seen here and many other cases world-wide, is that too many Muslims don't accept communal or even family responsibility for the misconduct of their own and don't reject their murder-minded deviants. This perp's wife apparently knew what he was planning but chose to aid rather than thwart him, his father blamed the nightclub for not preventing the massacre rather than himself or the inflammatory statements of the local imam, and the Orlando Muslim community, after expressing shock and making a show of grief, is now aggressively accusing others of "Islamophobia" and banishes the thought that they could bear any responsibility. 



> ...muslims in america are not a political force(minority muslims never act like political groups)....but the right wing christian rhetoric like..."clock is ticking"..."your time is running out"...which sound like out right threats are going to push muslims into trying to become a political force...


If Muslims organize politically to confront their own inner demons that would be great, wouldn't it?



hinduguy said:


> why are we discussing this attack as muslim issue... investigators are unsure about any link with ISIS.. and new evidence has come to light which might mean it might not be a terror act. may be Obama should apologize for jumping gun.


That's the one bit that surprised me. However, this guy had already been investigated twice by the FBI so Obama likely had information about him very quickly.


----------



## Anubis

Solomon2 said:


> The difference, as seen here and many other cases world-wide, is that too many Muslims don't accept communal or even family responsibility for the misconduct of their own and don't reject their murder-minded deviants. This perp's wife apparently knew what he was planning but chose to aid rather than thwart him, his father blamed the nightclub for not preventing the massacre rather than himself or the inflammatory statements of the local imam, and the Orlando Muslim community, after expressing shock and making a show of grief, is now aggressively accusing others of "Islamophobia" and banishes the thought that they could bear any responsibility.
> 
> If Muslims organize politically to confront their own inner demons that would be great, wouldn't it?



Then why not arrest the wife and the father? You have a criminal and people who helped the criminal...instead of treating them how they should be treated you go on THREATEN and entire group of people(3 million) that their time is running out.. It is irrelevant whether they personally think that they bear any responsibility...what is relevant is are they responsible or not...if they are they need to be dealt with...It seems like right wing morons are more inclined towards looking for apologies rather than actually taking action to punish those responsible and making sure things like this never happen again.
Muslims will not organize to confront their own demons...they will organize to legitimize their anti-western views by buying politicians.. All you need for them is to buy one president to say that Islamic Terrorism is the fault of America and then you can kiss your dreams of a stupid apology goodbye...they will radically change the culture of America....and then even if you criticize Islam you will be vindicated in your society and your workplace...Islamophobia will be the new Antisemitism.



hinduguy said:


> he can claim allegiance to wall mart, pepsi and microsoft... seems he had no political goal and was driven by personal issues... i dont think one can call him lone wolf as well.. because lone wolf implies operating alone but believing/inspired by/working on a shared agenda.


Well you could say radical Islam was his shared agenda....guilt was his fuel(he was gay himself...his first wife says he had gay tendencies..also claimed that the boys father also rebuked him for being gay in-front of his first wife...he was frequent at the gay club...and used gay dating apps)....on top he probably had mental health problems. Oh and he frequently expressed his disgust for gay people...he fits a lot of bills.


----------



## Solomon2

Anubis said:


> Then why not arrest the wife and the father?


Wife, probably. Father, not certain. In America you can't go arresting people willy-nilly. Officer must either observe a crime himself, be convinced of probable cause that the person committed a crime, or have a warrant from a judge.



> You have a criminal and people who helped the criminal...instead of treating them how they should be treated you go on THREATEN and entire group of people(3 million) that their time is running out..


It's not an either/or situation. Yes, I suppose the article is a kind of threat. Liberal democracy is not a death pact. Individuals and groups who decide to be bad citizens have to be dealt with. Every Muslim immigrant took his or her oath of citizenship to bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution and State against all enemies, foreign and domestic. During the Revolution thousands of British Loyalists departed - some were dispossessed and kicked out. All U.S. citizens of Japanese ancestry were placed in internment camps during WWII. 



> It is irrelevant whether they personally think that they bear any responsibility...what is relevant is are they responsible or not...


Contrast that with the contention of Islamists that non-Muslims, regardless of their deeds, are always enemies to be fought.



> if they are they need to be dealt with...It seems like right wing morons are more inclined towards looking for apologies rather than actually taking action to punish those responsible and making sure things like this never happen again.


True remorse can go a long way towards reducing the severity of the sentence.



> Muslims will not organize to confront their own demons...they will organize to legitimize their anti-western views by buying politicians..


All of a sudden you speak for all Muslims in America? Who elected you to that high office?


----------



## Anubis

Solomon2 said:


> Wife, probably. Father, not certain. In America you can't go arresting people willy-nilly. Officer must either observe a crime himself, be convinced of probable cause that the person committed a crime, or have a warrant from a judge.
> 
> It's not an either/or situation. Yes, I suppose the article is a kind of threat. Liberal democracy is not a death pact. Individuals and groups who decide to be bad citizens have to be dealt with. Every Muslim immigrant took his or her oath of citizenship to bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution and State against all enemies, foreign and domestic. During the Revolution thousands of British Loyalists departed - some were dispossessed and kicked out. All U.S. citizens of Japanese ancestry were placed in internment camps during WWII.
> 
> Contrast that with the contention of Islamists that non-Muslims, regardless of their deeds, are always enemies to be fought.
> 
> True remorse can go a long way towards reducing the severity of the sentence.
> 
> All of a sudden you speak for all Muslims in America? Who elected you to that high office?


I don't speak for all Muslims in America...but I speak for a majority of them...I lived in a secular country that slowly was handed over to Wahabi funded Islamists....I know how it works....I have seen it with my own eyes...I have lived it and I fear it. True remorse cannot be attained by force or threat...Not only is the time different from the revolutionary war and the WW2....but the situation of those wars is not even comparable to the war on terror...The family knew that the son had mental issues....and still went on to buy him ammo...if you can shoot unarmed teenagers....arresting anyone like this is childsplay.

Conservative America will bring about the defeat to radical Islam....and then blame it on Obama.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Solomon2

Anubis said:


> I don't speak for all Muslims in America...but I speak for a majority of them...I lived in a secular country that slowly was handed over to Wahabi funded Islamists....I know how it works....I have seen it with my own eyes...I have lived it and I fear it. True remorse cannot be attained by force or threat...Not only is the time different from the revolutionary war and the WW2....but the situation of those wars is not even comparable to the war on terror...The family knew that the son had mental issues....and still went on to buy him ammo...if you can shoot unarmed teenagers....arresting anyone like this is childsplay.
> 
> Conservative America will bring about the defeat to radical Islam....and then blame it on Obama.


Thank you for your frankness. Do you also have constructive suggestions to offer?


----------



## Proudpakistaniguy

Race/religion and meaning of terror





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1447254475300526

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## temporary12345

Anubis said:


> Muslims will not organize to confront their own demons...they will organize to legitimize their anti-western views by buying politicians.. All you need for them is to buy one president to say that Islamic Terrorism is the fault of America and then you can kiss your dreams of a stupid apology goodbye...they will radically change the culture of America....and then even if you criticize Islam you will be vindicated in your society and your workplace...Islamophobia will be the new Antisemitism.



It does not work like this.

Suppose you are able to buy politicians;you are also able to get a president to say that Islamic terrorism is fault of America. Then what? People in position of power in USA have been saying so for quite a long time.

Would you be able to convince US population that Islam is religion of peace? I don't think so. Instead by such proclamation, that president would lose popularity faster than a ghetto whøre loses her chlamydia -ve status.

You see, no one in power in USA ever accused Islam being cause of terrorism. Whether it was Bush ,or was it Obama, or Hillary, or mainstream US media, it was always how great Islam is, how peace loving it is, and how Jihadis have strayed from precepts from Islam and how they are in minority. This has been the constant story being played in media over and over again. On top of it, organization like CAIR has been at the forefront of pushing Islamofascist agenda in USA demanding concessions not granted to another groups (recent one that come to my mind is Muslims demanding daily closure of a meat packaging plant ,twice a day, so that do they could all pray at same time, even though owner was ready to give them breaks in batches). You see, everything that Saudi/Muslim/Petrodollar money could have brought- Politicians, Media, Lawyers - have already been brought. There is nothing to buy.


The hatred against Muslims ,that I see rising in whole of the world, is organic. People are stupid, but not that stupid as you think they are. In this age of internet (which means less dependency on mainstream media) people see repeated action of Jihad all around the world. They see Muslims butchering people in USA on regular basis. They see Muslims doing same thing to their brothers in Europe (whites do not care about terrorism in rest of the world). Thus irrespective of amount of propaganda being put out, they tend to see Islam as a violent cult.The degree of influence that person has on population is in direct proportion to his legitimacy and moral authority. President does not have a moral authority among his electorate to change their organically formed opinions. If he/she is foolish enough to try it, it would be he/she who would suffer loss of legitimacy, rather that Islam gaining legitimacy.


And trying to institutionalize Islamophobia like anti-Semetism would run into many problems. First, History is against viewing Muslims as victims. Jews really have been victims for most of history, while Muslims have been mass-murdering rapist maniacs (this is the reason why Islam is second largest religion in the world) for most of history. Any attempt to paint Muslims as victims is going to run into a wall of evidence to suggest the opposite ,and it is too late and there is enough material in public domain that mass buying of scholars is not going to change that. Second, Jihadis around the world who regularly slaughter people in west are biggest advertisement against Islamophobia, And Third and most important point: Adversary of Jews are not whites; they are Arabs.The bogey of anti-semetism does not harm white interests, thus they do not care. Primary enemy of Muslims are Whites atm. What you are asking them is to undermine their own interests and provide special victim status to Muslims!!! I think you are mistaken here. Had primary adversary of Jews been whites; rather than being provided victim status, there would have been a second holocaust.


----------



## Anubis

Solomon2 said:


> Thank you for your frankness. Do you also have constructive suggestions to offer?


Increased monitoring and profiling...specifically monitoring electronics and the internet...monitoring of all mosques and madrasas....


temporary12345 said:


> It does not work like this.
> 
> Suppose you are able to buy politicians;you are also able to get a president to say that Islamic terrorism is fault of America. Then what? People in position of power in USA have been saying so for quite a long time.
> 
> Would you be able to convince US population that Islam is religion of peace? I don't think so. Instead by such proclamation, that president would lose popularity faster than a ghetto whøre loses her chlamydia -ve status.
> 
> You see, no one in power in USA ever accused Islam being cause of terrorism. Whether it was Bush ,or was it Obama, or Hillary, or mainstream US media, it was always how great Islam is, how peace loving it is, and how Jihadis have strayed from precepts from Islam and how they are in minority. This has been the constant story being played in media over and over again. On top of it, organization like CAIR has been at the forefront of pushing Islamofascist agenda in USA demanding concessions not granted to another groups (recent one that come to my mind is Muslims demanding daily closure of a meat packaging plant ,twice a day, so that do they could all pray at same time, even though owner was ready to give them breaks in batches). You see, everything that Saudi/Muslim/Petrodollar money could have brought- Politicians, Media, Lawyers - have already been brought. There is nothing to buy.
> 
> 
> The hatred against Muslims ,that I see rising in whole of the world, is organic. People are stupid, but not that stupid as you think they are. In this age of internet (which means less dependency on mainstream media) people see repeated action of Jihad all around the world. They see Muslims butchering people in USA on regular basis. They see Muslims doing same thing to their brothers in Europe (whites do not care about terrorism in rest of the world). Thus irrespective of amount of propaganda being put out, they tend to see Islam as a violent cult.The degree of influence that person has on population is in direct proportion to his legitimacy and moral authority. President does not have a moral authority among his electorate to change their organically formed opinions. If he/she is foolish enough to try it, it would be he/she who would suffer loss of legitimacy, rather that Islam gaining legitimacy.
> 
> 
> And trying to institutionalize Islamophobia like anti-Semetism would run into many problems. First, History is against viewing Muslims as victims. Jews really have been victims for most of history, while Muslims have been mass-murdering rapist maniacs (this is the reason why Islam is second largest religion in the world) for most of history. Any attempt to paint Muslims as victims is going to run into a wall of evidence to suggest the opposite ,and it is too late and there is enough material in public domain that mass buying of scholars is not going to change that. Second, Jihadis around the world who regularly slaughter people in west are biggest advertisement against Islamophobia, And Third and most important point: Adversary of Jews are not whites; they are Arabs.The bogey of anti-semetism does not harm white interests, thus they do not care. Primary enemy of Muslims are Whites atm. What you are asking them is to undermine their own interests and provide special victim status to Muslims!!! I think you are mistaken here. Had primary adversary of Jews been whites; rather than being provided victim status, there would have been a second holocaust.



I disagree....People...specifically right wingers here are STUPID....or something beyond stupid...67% of Republicans think Obama is a Socialist...61% think he wants to take the guns away...57% of them think he is a Muslim....51% believe he wants to turn over the sovereignty of the US to a one world government....45% believe he was born outside the US....45% believe he is a domestic enemy....41% think he is Anti-American....41% believe he wants to use economic collapse or a terrorist attack to gain dictatorial powers...38% believe he does things that HITLER did....22% believe he wants the terrorists to win....and 24% believe he is the BIBLICAL ANTICHRIST....most of this believes are rooted on comments made by their leaders over and over again....when I talk about buying politicians....its not as simple as one guying saying Muslims are cool and everybody believing him....its a a process of repetition....people did not form 'independent opinion" about Obama's birth certificate...the leaders installed this idea in their heads....and yes if a muslim version of AIPAC buys these republicans they can turn the entire american right wing to their side or towards a completely different enemy...the churches that preached against the jews in the 50s 60s and 70s are now pro-Israel...The US never had a significant Jewish population....but Jews have been the second most hated targets of the most influential white groups in the US...be it the KKK or the Aryan Brtherhood or what not...but that shifted when Jews started investing in Ametican politics and chruches(churches are branches of right wing politics now)...yes you can buy the churches...you can buy the pastors with the big followings to change the narrative and in turn change what people believe...and Jews have made new enemies now and slowly making new friends...the arabs are becoming the friends...while Shia Iran is the new enemy...world politics is shifting...ADL went against Trumps mulim palns...America is different from Europe...American whites have other enemies...the Latinos...Most Trump supporters would still support Trump if he shut about Muslims....because the big agenda here is the wall...muslims were just a cherry on the top...but do not for one second think that wealthy wahabis cannot shift the republican towards them.


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## Solomon2

Anubis said:


> Increased monitoring and profiling...specifically monitoring electronics and the internet...monitoring of all mosques and madrasas....


Do you think that would have sufficed in Bangladesh?


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## Red-Bull

http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/06/12/left-chose-islam-gays-now-100-people-killed-maimed-orlando/

http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/06/15/milo-islam-best-statements/


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## Anubis

Solomon2 said:


> Do you think that would have sufficed in Bangladesh?


Bangladesh government does it within its capacity(it does not have the technology or the money)...but it does use available resources...there are police spies in mosques that are related to Islamic movements(even peaceful ones)...Bangladesh is poor and overpopulated...but atleast it tries...and it works...that's why you don't see bombs going of here and there(like other muslim countries)...the best radicals can do is targeted killings...because plots any bigger than that are usually caught before they are carried out. Besides muslims in america have more access to the internet and does not have as many gathering places as Bangladesh does...which means a lot of the radicalization in America happens through the internet. It can be done.


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## Red-Bull



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## Solomon2

Anubis said:


> Bangladesh government does it within its capacity(it does not have the technology or the money)...but it does use available resources...there are police spies in mosques that are related to Islamic movements(even peaceful ones)...Bangladesh is poor and overpopulated...but atleast it tries...and it works...that's why you don't see bombs going of here and there(like other muslim countries)...the best radicals can do is targeted killings...


That's bad enough. Especially since it scares the politicians into doing as little as possible to combat extremists, blame others who won't shoot, then try to take as much money as they can while in office so they can scoot away from such problems once they leave office.



Anubis said:


> Muslims will not organize to confront their own demons...they will organize to legitimize their anti-western views by buying politicians.. All you need for them is to buy one president to say that Islamic Terrorism is the fault of America and then you can kiss your dreams of a stupid apology goodbye..


Oh, now I understand a little better.

You know, the idea of justice is different in different cultures. In Pakistan and Bangladesh if you kill somebody but somebody else can be "proved" or compelled to confess to being responsible then as I understand it you're off the hook. Not in the U.S. Confession usually isn't enough for conviction, there have to be proofs, because it's recognized someone might confess to a crime for reasons other than actually having committed it.


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## gambit

Are there news in suicides ? Not really. It is sad that someone, for whatever reasons, feels his/her life no longer worth living, but the vast majority of suicides are done in private, even when a gun was used, and by the time local newspaper found out there was a suicide, the person has been long dead.

Are there news in self defense ? Not really. Self defense is expected.

Are there news in firearms related accidents ? Not really. If the accident is really hilarious, it may make the evening news.

Are there news in gang related incidents ? Not really. Gangs usually are big city problems and people pretty much expects that if you are in a gang, sooner or later, you will be involved in a gunfight. So much of that expectation that to catch the media's attention, a gang related incident would have to match the creativity of Hollywood complete with car chases, explosions, and gratuitous display of boobage, in order to earn a few minutes of air time.


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## Mujahid Memon

Yeezy said:


> Religion of peace at it again. RIP to the dead, they did not deserve this.


how can u blame Islam when a non-Muslim did the attacks ??


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## Yeezy

Mujahid Memon said:


> how can u blame Islam when a non-Muslim did the attacks ??



Lmao is this another conspiracy theory being churned out by your madrassa teacher?


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